open thread – October 5-6, 2018

by Alison Green on October 5, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

You may also like:
{ 1,612 comments }

{ 1,612 comments… read them below }

  1. Lillie Lane*

    Question about employer accounts in Glassdoor:

    Someone said yesterday that it is easy for an employer to manipulate Glassdoor’s algorithms to change the order of reviews. How does this work?

    My former employer obviously pays for a package, because they post jobs and have a “featured review” at the top (which is really old and reads fake, but is four stars so I suppose HR thinks it looks unbiased to feature it). I have noticed lately that there have been a number of recent terrible reviews (say, all from September 2018). All of these terrible reviews are rated as very helpful. However, one older 5-star review (from, say, August 2018) continues to stay in the first review position (right below the “featured review”). This 5-star review has no “helpful” ratings. Can employers pay to have specific reviews hang around the top, first-seen position?
    I know the review listing is generally chronological (at least in the app). However, what I’m trying to say is that the most recent, helpful, but negative reviews for this company get shoved down the line and older, positive (and IMO fake) reviews always seem to float to the top of the list so they are seen first. Is this some quirk of Glassdoor, or can companies pay to control the order of review listings?

    1. Something Something*

      Yes, employers can pay to have a “featured” review always appear at the top. That’s why I find it more valuable to always sort by date.

      1. Bostonian*

        I do the same. I don’t know what the app interface looks like, as I mostly use Glassdoor from a desktop, but I always sort reviews by most recent. I think you can also sort by “helpful” and rating.

    2. saturnine*

      Yes, my employer paid a hefty sum to push the more negative reviews down. Also, all of a sudden, the overall rating of my company went waaay up.

      1. Lillie Lane*

        Gross. I checked another (former) horrible employer and if you calculate the average of the ratings, the overall rating does not match. The overall rating that Glassdoor claims is higher than the actual.

        Personally I find this pay-to-play model sleazy and manipulative.

      2. Stranger than fiction*

        I’m really beginning to wonder how much validity you can put into glassdoor.
        Some companies have obvious fakes – such as all the “current employee, less than one year” reviews being 5 stars because they clearly just attended some sort of Onboarding Rah Rah where they were encouraged to do so, but other companies, that have hundreds of reviews and perhaps really good PR people regularly posting fakes from all sorts of departments, aren’t so obvious and would take a ton of work to decipher, if at all possible.

    3. Beth Anne*

      I’ve wondered about this as well. I recently asked in a FB group about how accurate they are. I recently interviewed in a job that had some really crazy BAD REVIEWS…but it also had good reviews. And I got mixed information. Many said to take them with a grain of salt. Others say sometimes someone gets fired and writes a mean review. Others said they write fake reviews. So I guess the idea is when you interview to ask about the culture to see how accurate the reviews are.

      1. Seespotbitejane*

        This conversation prompted me to go look up an extremely toxic company where I used to work. Most of the reviews (including mine) are one star with titles like “Stay Away,” “Treated Like Cattle,” “Grim,” but now there are a smattering of definitely fake five star reviews. The average is still only up to 2.8, but the family owned nature of this company means that leadership will not improve until both the head partners die so I’m actually a little alarmed because there are no straights dire enough for you to take a job there.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t know what the life expectancy of a review is, but I do know that my review just vanished. I assume they only keep a few of the most recent years?

      1. Lillie Lane*

        I didn’t think they purged older reviews — I see there are ones still up back to at least 2011. I think you can’t write a review if you haven’t worked at a company within the past 5 years.

        I thought Glassdoor started as a review site for job seekers. Now that they have IMO completely sold out to companies, I don’t trust it at all.

    5. AshK434*

      I wish I knew but it’s totally true! I left a scathing review for my former employer (all true and it wasn’t ranty it just alleges racial bias at a very well known media company) and somehow it doesn’t appear in within the first couple of pages of review even though it’s relatively recent.

    6. Eric*

      I wrote a review about a tech startup I interviewed at and it was taken down within a week. Reason cited was personal attacks on the company’s employees. I said they were condescending to me because my resume was mostly big financials. Specifically, one of my interviewers said “I don’t know about you, because big company people don’t know how to get things done.” Sounds fishy to me.

      People in industry talk to each other. Take everything you see online with a grain of salt. Best way is in person chats, of course.

  2. Cheerily Terrified*

    I was officially told today that I am being laid off, from an organisation that had become pretty toxic and demotivating. I knew it was coming, so it is not a shock, but the fact that soon I won’t have a job is still sinking in. I will keep working until mid-November, and I will get a redundancy payment.

    I have been looking for work and had one or two interviews so far, but I’m in quite a specialised field, and not that much tends to come up. I also would prefer not to move. I’ve also been considering changing fields, though I’m not sure to what.

    So at the moment I’m swing between excitement that this job will finally be over, and I can take some time off to consider what to do, and complete and utter panic that I will never find another job again and I will lose my flat which has a relatively affordable rent.

    Does anyone have any recommendations for how to keep going and keep motivated in a situation like this? If others have gone through layoffs what did you do?

    1. Tara S.*

      Routine! I was laid off without notice (company went bankrupt) I felt crazy until I self-imposed a routine. Regular business hours were dedicated to job searching, then I could relax like normal in the evenings. Depending on your field and financial situation, it might make sense to also try and pick up some part time work once your job ends, to help ends meet while you’re looking. Best of luck!

      1. GeniusCandyBar*

        Agree on the Routine. When I was downsized, I volunteered part time 2 days a week a the local Red Cross office. I built databases & mailing lists for them (tasks similar to ones I did at my old job). This gave me an office to go to, plus allowed me to volunteer more (fulfilling that, some day when I retire I will….).

    2. Audiophile*

      I’m so sorry. While I’ve been laid off from a few jobs, I usually did not have much advance notice.

      I can’t say I have a ton of advice, but when I was laid off previously I usually took a day (or the weekend, since it tended to happen on Thursdays or Fridays) to let it sink in. Then Monday or Tuesday, I’d kick start my job search, file for unemployment and basically get all my ducks in a a row.

    3. Gelliebean*

      I haven’t been through layoffs, but I’m also prone to the same kind of mood swings – what sometimes helps me is to take the situation in tiny bites. If I’m super excited about something, making myself focus on one small part of it lets me direct that energy efficiently. And when it’s too big and overwhelming, and I’m ready to give up in frustration, breaking it down into small tasks gives me something that’s manageable. Sometimes that mini task is nothing but “make a list of things”. Don’t let yourself get distracted by thinking about all the items on the list that need to be done; just tell yourself “my job right now is making a list”. Then when you move to the first thing on the list, say contacting references, break that down into smaller tasks (make a list of people, then make sure you have their contact information, then call Pam, then call Mitch). This helps me feel like I’m making progress, even if I’m only marking off a single phone call.

    4. Colette*

      Before your last day:
      – make sure you have everything (physical and electronic) that you want to keep from work (personal stuff, I’m not suggesting you start stealing confidential information)
      – figure out your budget (how long will your savings/redundancy payment last)
      – figure out what expenses you want to/can cut (e.g. if you’re not driving to work, you may be able to reduce your car insurance)
      – figure out the EI/UI process (in Canada you would need to apply for EI as soon as you get your record of employment, even if you wouldn’t actually be able to collect until your severance runs out)
      – start working on your resume, and figure out if you know anyone who hires would could review it and give you feedback.

      Once you are unemployed:
      – figure out a routine (both job-hunting related and otherwise) – e.g. I will check the job postings every morning, go to the gym, then have a networking call/meeting or email 3 people to set up a meeting
      – tell people you are unemployed. (I got my last 2 jobs through random connections.)
      – get out of the house every day, even if it’s just to go for a walk.
      – are there projects you want to do? Work them into your schedule.

      1. Butter Makes Things Better*

        Colette’s first tip about gathering all your electronic belongings is huge! I’m still crushed that I accidentally waved bye-bye to email from writers I love/admire when I left OldJob years ago. I was not smiles times.

        1. Colette*

          Yeah, funny/touching emails you’ve received, performance evaluations, bookmarks for industry or personal pages, that picture you downloaded as your wallpaper and then lost at home when your hard drive crashed, …

        2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          And your personal contact list from Outlook (or the equivalent)! You want to be sure you know how to reach key people for networking, etc.

    5. RVA Cat*

      Put the “utter panic that I will never find another job again” completely out of your mind unless you’re very close to retirement. It may take longer that you expect, but you can and will work again.

      It sounds like you are in the UK or British Commonwealth so at least you don’t have to panic about healthcare like Americans do.

      1. misspiggy*

        Absolutely. Assuming OP is in the U.K., they should register with temp agencies now, for temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs. Physically go into their office if at all possible. Schedule a break and, after that is ended, pester the agency by phone every day for opportunities. (If asked whether you can audio type, say yes if you have a good typing speed. It’s pretty easy if you’re already a good typist.)

        Check with Citizens Advice for how to manage claiming benefits – you may need to submit a claim to keep up your National Insurance contributions, even if you don’t intend to be out of work for long.

        In the very, very unlikely event that you couldn’t pay your rent, sit tight – evicting people in the UK is very difficult if they have an assured shorthold tenancy. Look at Shelter’s website for info.

        Once you’ve got those ducks in a row, you’ll hopefully feel freer to look for the right permanent job.

        1. London Calling*

          Especially as we’re coming up to December, register with temp agencies asap. Temp work can be very thin on the ground in December/January, so it helps to be registered and ready to go when a job does come up.

    6. Jennifer M.*

      I was unemployed for 6 months. On the one hand, I really needed the rest because it was coming off of 3 years in a high stress situation in a different country with security issues.

      I had some rules to create structure: I had to make my bed every day (I haven’t made my bed since I got a job, other than when the sheets are changed). I was allowed to weary “comfy” clothes all day if I wanted, but they couldn’t be the same ones I slept in the night before. I couldn’t graze all day, I had to have 2 proper meals a day (in my working life, I’ll often skip either breakfast or dinner). I shifted a lot of errands that I would normally do on the weekends to the weekdays just to get out of the house more often (and the grocery store on a Tuesday morning is way better than a Saturday morning). I live alone, so I also checked in with family more often than typical so I didn’t get too hermit-y (my parents were actually starting a massive downsize at approximately the same time so I did go over there a lot to help them sort things).

      I still had to deal with some resentment over the lay off and I believe I was straight up depressed, but I believe it could have ended up a lot worse than it was. I ended up in a subset of my industry that I had never really been aware of and never would have found if I had just been casually looking for a job from a place of security and I’m quite happy with the result.

      1. Gaia*

        I have to say the clothes thing is huge for me. It sounds silly but not getting changed in the morning is a quick turn towards a path that leads to laying in bed all day, depressed, angry, sad, and binge watching reruns on Netflix wondering why a job hasn’t landed in your lap. Get. Dressed.

        1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          That.
          A friend of mine, when they got downsized, went through their budget and put a lot of discretionary spending on hold. Cable and Netflix were the first to go, to discourage themselves from becoming couch potatoes.

    7. Urdnot Bakara*

      I was also laid off without notice (position eliminated and that’s just how that company liked to do things) but with some severance. I signed up for unemployment as soon as was possible, and I started sending my resume to temp agencies in addition to applying for jobs regularly. I was able to find a job through a temp-to-hire position, but even if you can’t find a permanent job you’d like this way (and if you’re in a specialized field, it’s likely you won’t), having the option to work temporary jobs at least maintains some income for a while. Some other things that kept me sane while unemployed were setting realistic goals for myself (# of jobs to apply to every day, etc.) and negotiating with my former employer for an additional month of healthcare coverage.

      1. Urdnot Bakara*

        (Just saw where another commenter pointed out you might not be in the US, so the healthcare portion is probably not applicable to you!)

    8. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      There is a lot of good advice here. What I would add: Getting laid off sucks. It is natural to find it scary and painful. You don’t need to wallow, but don’t try to fast forward through it, deny it, or minimize it either. Just – it’s going to hurt, but it won’t hurt forever, and you will be okay.

      Come back here and post on Fridays for a while.

    9. Lexi Kate*

      When I got laid off I cried and fell apart that day then the next morning I got up at my regular time, got showered and ready for work. And started my daily work to search for a job
      – I set up a station in my living room
      -Created a spreadsheet to track jobs, interviews, etc so I had the backup to know when someone called as to which position they were calling for since I was open to changing fields.
      -I researched jobs and salaries and determined a low point that I could take and not have to pick up a side gig.
      – I updated my linked in added everyone I could think of and posted that I was looking for a change and if anyone had any leads to let me know.
      -I applied for jobs that I was almost qualified for that looked like places I wanted to work or jobs I wanted to do.

      My advice is to work your layoff likes its your job 8-10 hours a day. First figure out what are deal breakers, and what your salary scale is. Then to get your resumes together (more than one option). And to get interview suits together (1st interview, 2nd, and 3rd) and set them aside to keep clean, ironed starched at all times because if not you will inevitably need one when they are all wrinkled and stained. And be open I learned titles are irrelevant, even in the same industry (seriously I interviewed for a Analytics Engineer, BI Specialist, and a Senior Analyst with the same job description verbatim at 3 different insurance companies, with the same pay) So be open.

      1. Colette*

        Oh, about tracking jobs – I created a folder structure on my hard drive:
        Company
        Job
        Resume (the copy I used to apply)
        Posting (cut and paste from the listing on the web)
        Cover letter

        That way when it came time for an interview, I knew what version of my resume I had sent them, what I had said in the cover letter, and what they were looking for.

        1. Jean (just Jean)*

          Thanks so much for this useful information! I love the way your system is clear and streamlined without making room to hold onto Every. Last. Detail. (such as multiple drafts of the cover letter & resume).
          Some of us are wired to organize the forest right down to the leaves & bark on each tree. And whether these features change color, texture, etc. depending on facing north, south, east, or west. Ahem. Nobody I know personally, of course.

        2. Cedrus Libani*

          I did the same, using Evernote. (The free version is plenty for this.) I made a new note for each job, with the company name, date applied, the cut-and-pasted job posting, and cover letter. Super helpful when it was interview time and I needed to remember which one of the eleventy billion postings I was actually up for.

      2. Whatsinaname*

        Absolutely that. I returned to the US when I got laid off from my job in Europe. It took me four months to find a job. What helped me was having a routine. First thing in the morning I would go swimming or for a walk. Then breakfast and then I would ‘work’ for six hours a day applying for jobs. Afterwards I would reward myself with doing something fun like going to the library, the mall or just exploring the new city I had moved to. I think the reward thing was important because it was demoralizing to not get a response or negative responses. In addition there was the element of running out of money since I was financing everything with my severance pay and I had no additional income. So while my main focus was on finding a job, I also tended to my mental well being because not being mentally well will definitely impact the outcome of your job search. I’m happy to report that it ended well and the results of my search led me into a high paying career.

    10. From the High Tower on the Hill*

      I have definitely found it helpful to not be at home during the work day so I can better focus on “working” aka job hunting. I would go to a library or coffee shop, anything to get me away from the distractions of regular life. It also helped me to put on “real clothes” aka not sweatpants and sweatshirts and put on what I would regularly wear to work to keep me in the right mindset.

    11. Persimmons*

      I was unemployed for six years after a layoff. Remind yourself through the panic that even if you can’t find something in your field, it’s almost certain that you can still find something. I cobbled together waitressing, part-time work, freelancing, and odd jobs until the economy recovered enough that my field started hiring again. It wasn’t fun, and I’m way behind in how much field experience (and retirement funds) I should have for someone my age, but I got by. You will too.

    12. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      First off, sorry to hear about your layoff. As RVA Cat said–get the idea that you will never find another job out of your head. You will ABSOLUTELY find another job. Just be prepared that it might take a while– a long while. It took me two years to find another job. Like you, I was given prior notice (1 month). During that month, I started getting my things together. You may also want to ask around your organization to find out if there are openings in other departments. While you are unemployed, get a routine going. Sign up with Permanent employment agencies and Temporary agencies. I signed up with quite a few, but it was the Temp agency that finally called me for a long term assignment (the Company finally made me permanent). If you do go on Temp assignments, ask if you can leave your resume. And you never know–the temp assignment could turn into a permanent job.

    13. Over It*

      Speaking to the psychological side of getting laid off, it’s very common to be told “it’s not personal.” When it happened to me, that’s actually what offended me. I felt like, I AM a person, and the fact that this situation has grave consequences to me personally, was a losing consideration in the decision*. If it had been personal, if there was something I did wrong that I could learn from, I actually could have taken it better. It’s really a lack of control issue that is so disorienting, that there’s really nothing I could have done to prevent this. So recognizing that, and taking control of things you can do, as suggested by others here, might help in wrapping your brain around the whole thing.

      Have patience, do what you can, and remember that you will be looking back in 5 years at the fact that if this crappy thing hadn’t happened, you wouldn’t be in whatever great new situation you will find yourself in.

      Good luck.

      *yes, I get that it’s never an easy decision, business realities, economic feasibilities, blah blah… still sucks.

      1. Gaia*

        I was told over and over it wasn’t personal, just business and….I get that but it was so rage inducing because I AM A PERSON.

        1. Colette*

          It’s not personal in the same way a natural disaster is not personal. It affects you as a person, but it’s not something you could control. (Having said that, there may be a personal aspect to a lay-off – it’s worth considering whether you were at the lower end of performance because the job wasn’t a good fit, or if you’d received performance feedback that wasn’t bad enough to fire you but still made you more vulnerable than others in the same job – that’s not necessarily the case, but there might be something you should learn).

        2. Gaia*

          I get it isn’t personal but it is also a really crappy thing to say because you’re acknowledging that you didn’t consider the human aspect. That isn’t to say the humans aspect should change the decision, but it should impact behavior.

    14. Jean (just Jean)*

      tl;dr: It stinks to be laid off but you sound capable of weathering the transition to new employment. Please take comfort from past and present fellow/sister travelers on the same road! (Also, internet hugs or warm vibes if you want either or both.)

      Lots of good advice here and allusions to being resourceful and resilient. I was particularly struck by these words of Persimmons:
      >Remind yourself through the panic that even if you can’t find something in your field, it’s almost certain that you can still find something.

      Never underestimate the power of Simply Keeping Going via Honest Work, even if it’s not at the top of your field and/or does not require all of your skills and abilities. There’s a country song with the refrain “that’s something to be proud of.” (Sorry, I don’t know title, songwriter, or recording artist(s).)

      I wish you a brief but effective period of grieving followed by self-care, self-discipline (establishing a new weekday routine, updating your resume and LinkedIn profile, reaching out to your network, and methodically checking for and applying to open positions), and self-discovery. Please be encouraged by your cogent, clear but calm request for help–it shows that you have skills, determination, and sufficient emotional awareness to know that your moments of panic need not become your entire mindset. (I don’t know your full life circumstances but you present as someone aware of options beyond the grim choices of Thrive, and Not Thrive.)

      1. Artemesia*

        The self care is critical. Whenever you are under a lot of stress it is absolutely crucial to be meticulous about self care. Eat healthy meals; go stock the refrigerator with easy to make things you like and know you will eat but that don’t take a lot of effort if you know cooking will be something you don’t want to do. Exercise every day even if it is an evening half hour power walk. Maybe look up the Canadian 12 minute workout on line which is a set of stretches etc you can do first thing in the morning; they are organized by age, gender, fitness so you start where you are. Just starting the day this way and then getting at least that walk in makes a huge difference in well being. Make sure you practice great personal hygiene; shower, dress, put on whatever make up you normally would; make yourself presentable even if the only person who sees you today is you in the mirror. Schedule at least weekly social engagement. Meet with friends for a movie or a night out; go to museums or concerts (start scanning for free stuff) etc so you have a calendar with things to do every week. Have strategies for anxiety reduction — whatever has worked for you starting with framing the situation as an opportunity rather than a disaster. (been there and know how hard that is — but perpetual wallowing just makes you miserable and makes it less likely to find something new). This too will pass. I thought the world and my career was over and I got through and had a good career and you will too.

      2. Geillis D*

        Jean, I know I’m not the intended recipient of your wise and kind words, but I’m in the same rickety boat and thank you from the bottom of my heart.

        1. Jean (just Jean)*

          Thank you as well. Glad I was helpful. My own tenancy in the rickety boat has been measured in both months and years.

    15. Geillis D*

      Ouch, oi, ouch. So sorry. I was laid off last week, from a job I loved and was very excited about when I was hired last year. I’m pretty positive I will be employed again before 2018 is done but my self esteem took a serious beating.

      I’m trying to keep busy, and also complete projects around the house I didn’t get around to do when I was working full-time. I also allow myself the occasional (non-weekend) do absolutely nothing day, when I simply read, snuggle with the felines who graciously allow me to be their personal heating pad, and sit on the couch looking out the window.

      All the best, please tell your brain to say nothing if it doesn’t have anything nice to say.

    16. Gaia*

      I was laid off 5 weeks ago now and I have found the following helpful:

      1. Don’t read the job reports or articles about the low unemployment numbers. They don’t help when you don’t have a job.
      2. Find something to do. Take a class (lots of free pretty cool MOOCs online these days), volunteer, take up a new weird hobby. DO SOMETHING.
      3. Alongside number 2, structure your day. Set the alarm. Wake up. Shower. Get dressed. Do something. Do not binge Netflix all day (okay, maybe some days).
      4. Be sad. Be angry. Be grateful. Be scared. Allow yourself to feel. Don’t think about how you “should” feel. You feel how you feel and that is okay. Remember that this is a loss and you will grieve and your grief will be different than mine was (is) and different than anyone else’s. That is okay. It is yours. Own it.
      5. Know that you’re going to be okay and that job was toxic and crap anyway. Know that you still have value and that you will land on your feet.

    17. Gaia*

      Oh, I just read that you’ll be working until November. Hmm how to put this?

      I also had about 2 months’ notice. It was okay at first. I was glad for the notice. Then, I found myself increasingly frustrated/angry/sad/demotivated because everything else was going on around me and I wasn’t going to be there for it and I was losing my job and these people weren’t, etc.

      If you experience anything similar know that it is 1. normal and 2. not a reason to be unprofessional. Keep it together. Go out on a high. You got this.

      1. Not so rainy*

        Ooooh I can relate to what Gaia said. Best tip I was given is to take one of those paper meter/foot measurer from Ikea and shred it to the amount of days left. Kept me grounded to keep the target (last day at ToxicCompany!) in sight when I was roller coasting between contradictory emotions.
        And during the job search, may I suggest to fend off the associated depression with an activity that rewards you with the pleasure of concrete success: baking, do-it-yourself, gardening, gaming (Pokemon Go anyone?) if you must, anything that will bring you a daily feeling of success, of having done something tangible.
        Take care of yourself in the troubled times ahead. If you don’t, who will?
        Warm regards.

      2. JxB1000*

        I had the exact experience. Company going thru tough times. I was in the 3rd waves of layoffs. They wanted to help so gave us about two months notice. We were expected to continue jobs but they were super flexible about spending some time on job search, interviews, could print things out. Sounded GREAT at first – and they meant well. But he lame duck status set in quickly. And even though we intellectually understood the layoff wasn’t personal or about performance, some bitterness still set in. And it was just as awkward for those not laid off. Despite everyone’s great intentions, it quickly became a toxic environment.

  3. Snarkus Aurelius*

    What’s the best way to interact with an office bully who tried to get you fired? My current approach is to be coldly cordial but distant.

    Jane is my organization’s resident mean girl. Earlier this year, she tried to get me fired by spreading rumors about me and sabotaging my work, and she didn’t cover her tracks well. She didn’t succeed, but she did get me kicked off a major project that would have given my career a boost.

    Two weeks ago, I ran into Jane at a large event. When she walked in the room, I crossed to the other side. When she took a step toward me, I crossed my arms, raised one eyebrow, and tilted my head. She went another way. When she joined a conversation I was having with a group of people (WHY?), I waited until she was done talking and excused myself with no expression on my face.

    One coworker, who knew the whole story, called me out for being rude. I repeated, “Jane tried to get me fired,” several times. My initial draft of this post included a detailed explanation of why wrongly getting fired would be bad, but you know what? Wrongly getting fired is a terrible thing all by itself. It doesn’t need a justification.

    I’m not going to smack Jane, but I’m not going to be friends with her either. She committed a pretty horrific act against me so I don’t think anyone should be shocked at my reaction, especially her. (I’m also getting the impression I’m the first person who has responded to her in this way.)

    I strongly identify with this OP: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/09/my-coworker-framed-me-to-try-to-get-me-in-trouble-and-now-wants-to-meet-for-coffee.html. I’ve been pouring over the comments and feeling a bit better about how I treated Jane.

    I really don’t think I’m the bad guy here. When you mess with someone’s life like that, you shouldn’t be surprised at the reactions you get.

    1. Tara S.*

      Your actions are understandable and are not affecting anyone’s ability to do their job. I wouldn’t be worried.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I guess there’s a question of, might you be hurting yourSELF by being very public and making other people uncomfortable around this? Forget her, if people who don’t know you or the backstory see you souring their experience at an event, you are going to look like the one with the problem, which is another way that she “wins.” You might need to be more subtle in your digs at her. Certainly you don’t need to converse or be at all friendly though.

      1. NicoleK*

        This. Unless they’re close friends of yours, most people who work with you and Jane may not care all that much about what Jane did to you, because it wasn’t done to them. Or they may not even be aware of what went on.

        1. Yorick*

          Or some may have heard just enough of the story to already wonder if you’ve done something wrong. If you’re noticeably cool, those people might assume you’re “retaliating” against someone who spoke up about your bad work.

          You definitely don’t have to be friendly, but I guess try not to make it obvious that you’re avoiding her.

      2. Stormfeather*

        But I don’t really see anything inappropriate/souring about simply waiting for a lull in the conversation and excusing yourself, personally. It sounds like Snark is handling it totally appropriately to me – if they were throwing a tantrum about HOW DARE YOU APPROACH ME and making a big scene, then yeah I could see a complaint. But this? Sounds totally reasonable.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I guess the fact that the coworker noticed and felt uncomfortable (enough to say something to OP, at least) made me wonder if they had been quite overt. If they had truly just excused themselves, the coworker wouldn’t have clocked it. It’s not that I don’t think Jane deserves the blowback, I just wouldn’t want this OP to alienate coworkers and others in a way that may reflect badly on their own options. There might be more of a middle ground.

          1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

            Agreed! We also don’t know what Jane said after OP left the conversation. She could have either played up feeling hurt by it, or played dumb “did I say something to upset her?” etc. Suddenly people who don’t know the whole story think OP is the jerk. I’d be really careful leaving anything open for her to apply spin to.

            1. Camellia*

              At first I was ‘yeah, what you did was perfect and expected’, but this comment about what Jane might be doing and saying when you are not there scares me. I think you should figure this is exactly what someone like this should do and not be so overt in your actions.

              Much as I hate to say it, you are apparently the one who has more to lose since SHE WAS NOT FIRED FOR DOING THIS TO YOU! You said she had not covered her tracks well, which I assume is why you did not get fired, but sheesh! Why was she not fired for doing this???????

      3. designbot*

        This is what I’m wondering. Would a better approach to do as Mr. Wickham says (not as he does) and deciding that *you* deserve to own the space, and if there is any discomfort then *she* can be the one to leave, since you have done nothing wrong? By ceding the space, you’re automatically in a weakened position. As others have mentioned, this gives her the opportunity to put her spin on it for everyone else, and may deprive you of opportunity if the people you’re conversing with are influential ones.

        1. wherewolf*

          This is a good comparison to make, because if you recall Mr. Wickham came across as the wronged party and the kinder gentleman because of this. Mr. Darcy, even though he was the one actually wronged, had to write a letter explaining what had actually happened, and even then Lizzie had to share that with her family. So while you should certainly get out of any situation you feel uncomfortable in, by choosing to leave whenever Jane shows up, you may be cutting yourself out of opportunities at work and also allowing her to own the story, even though you were the wronged party.

    4. Lirael*

      I think that’s a totally reasonable response. If you have to interact with her for work purposes, you’d need to be able to speak to her, but socially? Nah.

      And I’m sorry this happened to you!

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I suspect your co-worker may have a vested interest in everyone getting along and there not being discomfort. Bottom line, Jane tried to get you fired and has shown you who she is. She doesn’t get an automatic pass back into your good graces because her attempt failed. Agree with others that your response is reasonable. You just have to work with Jane (and what is up with her boss/HR not reprimanding or firing her for her actions?), not be buddies with her.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you handled yourself well. Your coworker was probably uncomfortable but that’s too bad. You don’t owe Jane anything more than frosty politeness.

      1. Fergus*

        You don’t owe Jane and Jane is not entitled to anything from you, you already know she’s not your friend. I would have done the same thing. I have done the same thing to people and will continue.

    6. LadyPhoenix*

      The inly courtesy you have to give Jane is to make sure your work between you and her is conplete.

      You don’t have to invite her for drinks out, be friends, invite her to chats with your buddies (unless it is a project that she has partial responsibility), or be nice to her.

      And no other explanation is needed besides “she tried to get me fired”. She knew what she did, she doesn’t get to play innocent either.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        That’s a really important question. I’d be thinking of leaving if she didn’t, because a place that allows “mean girl” behavior is not a place you should stay.

    8. JokeyJules*

      you aren’t the bad guy. Unfortunately, when people do wrong by you but you must still be around them professionally and personally, it just heaps even more responsibility onto you.
      I think your friend wanted you to “rise above” and still be nice to her. Which is absolute crap. Just continue to be truly cordial and civil and that’s all that you need to do.

    10. Phyllis*

      One coworker, who knew the whole story, called me out for being rude.

      I’d have to respond to that with “What’s your point?”

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Agreed. It’s not “friendly” but it’s not rude, and that’s how I would respond to the busy-body third party inserting herself into this.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Yes.
        There is no etiquette requirement to pretend you like horrible people.

        In a work setting, or at work-related industry events, you don’t want uninvolved people picking up on a “bad blood” vibe. So if you’re socializing with coworkers or colleagues, you’re going to want to be very smooth and subtle about disengaging. But manners-wise, you did just fine.

    12. Linzava*

      Sounds like nobody’s ever stood up to Jane before. And her trying to interject into conversations with you are her trying to make you uncomfortable or trying to put you in a position to be nice to her. Either way, it’s a power play and you handled it fine. As for your coworker, they’re being rude by interjecting themselves into the drama.

      I wouldn’t worry about it, keeping things icy between you makes it nearly impossible for her to mess with your career again. Would your coworker expect you to be polite to someone who publicly slapped you in the face? No.

      1. Camellia*

        You say, “…keeping things icy between you makes it nearly impossible for her to mess with your career again.” But as Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon said above, “We also don’t know what Jane said after OP left the conversation. She could have either played up feeling hurt by it, or played dumb “did I say something to upset her?” etc. Suddenly people who don’t know the whole story think OP is the jerk. I’d be really careful leaving anything open for her to apply spin to.”

        So I think OP’s behavior potentially makes room for Jane to mess with her reputation and career. At first I agreed with her actions but, like I replied above, this potential scares me for the OP and I believe should rethink their approach.

        1. Anne (with an “e”)*

          When I first read the OP’s post I didn’t think they had done anything wrong. However, after reading several of the comments I am beginning to change my opinion. The OP definitely does not want to do anything to damage their reputation. Appearances matter, especially in a professional setting, even more so if not everyone knows the full backstory. This “ mean girl” is still employed by the same company. She was not let go, nor apparently disciplined. That says a lot to me. That means she apparently has clout and power. She did succeed in getting OP kicked off of a major project and slowing down OP’s advancement. Thus, I think that OP should never be overtly, obviously rude to this “mean girl.” That “rude” look can be detrimental to the OP to casual observers. I actually believe that as difficult as it might be, the OP might benefit from the old maxim, “Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.” Pretend to tolerate the “mean girl,” but proceed with caution. Use the opportunity to spy on her.

          1. Not so rainy*

            Or try to smother her in kindness! This is counter-intuitive, but will deprive her of the pleasure to get a reaction from you (they get high on that!). Reframe it as not being an amusing toy that rises or flinches under her gaze. So you would never appear publicly as a weird person, and she would get no opportunity to tell her side of the story. And you keep control of the conversation, preferably on light non-work subjects: “how was your weekend?”, “Such a lovely/terrible weather isn’t it?”, ” Oh would that be a new outfit?”, and then excuse yourself to refresh your drink, miss Manners way.
            The victory is in not letting her further control your emotions and your public image. She does not deserve your anger, only your disdain/pity.

            1. TardyTardis*

              “Bless your heart.” Southern ladies know how to skewer with a smile. It’s very useful.

      1. Anon From Here*

        Enh, a good ol’ “cut direct” is problematic among friends and family. But co-workers aren’t friends or family, and professional relationships are different from friend and family relationships.

        1. TootsNYC*

          except that: for you to not suffer for this breach of civility, other people have to know of the offense, and agree with you that it was offensive.

          And in our culture, there are lots of people who will come up with all kinds of excuses for rudenesses and offenses they didn’t personally suffer.

          Go for the cut-indirect. Vague drifting away.

    14. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Sounds good to me. If your coworker mentions this again, I would ask “That’s very interesting, perhaps you can elaborate on how I was being rude” I would suspect that the person wouldn’t be able to elaborate without citing you being unfriendly. If that’s the case then you can calmly explain that you are willing and able to be professional with Jane, but that is where it will end. Alternately you could respond with a simple “No, I wasn’t rude nor was I unprofessional.”

      I would recommend that you continue this detached professionalism with Jane. She sounds like the type who try to engage with you in a public setting in order to help her come out looking like the victim.

      You don’t have to defend yourself to Clueless Cathy, Jane, or anyone else on this matter in fact now that I’ve written that it may just be better to respond to Clueless Cathy with a simple “I’m not discussing Jane”. This gives you the moral high ground and doesn’t leave you open to accusations of gossiping or disparaging Jane publicly.

    15. OhGee*

      You’re under no obligation to interact with her any further than what’s required for work purposes. I’m sorry you have to work with such a jerk at all.

    16. Bea*

      You’re behaving correctly.

      You should keep your distance because she sucks and is dangerous to your job! She shouldn’t be given the chance to buddy up with you ever, it’s giving her another opening to sneak in and do damage further.

      You’re not rude for being on guard and not allowing others to threaten your livelihood. Anyone who thinks so isn’t thinking clearly about the consequences and it’s not your job to teach them.

    17. epi*

      Honestly, to me your behavior as described sounds unnoticeable to anyone but you, Jane, and anyone who knows what happened between the two of you. It’s normal at a large event to move around the room, or to excuse yoursel from one group to go talk to another. I wouldn’t worry about it.

      I so know that urge to explain why a bad thing is bad. Make sure you are getting validation somewhere of how crappy this was! IME reading is great for when you need to think about this right now (as long as it’s not so often it’s interfering with you moving on), but you deserve to have real people in your life telling you that your own personal experience wasn’t OK. Only you know if your friend is projecting a pretty common personal anxiety on to you, or if she’s just actually not that supportive. But either way I don’t think you need to be hearing right now that you’re the one making it weird if you don’t pretend that nothing happened. I’d talk to this friend about other topics, at a minimum.

    18. Res Admin*

      I have been in a very similar position (actually, it just raised it’s ugly mug again even though I am in a new unit). My best advice is to be cordial, but distant. Very professional, but not particularly friendly. Keep your distance as much as is reasonably possible–without actually going out of your way to do so.

      This is where you let her manipulate you: She joined the group conversation, however you left and you got called out for being rude. Next time: Stay and continue your conversation without acknowledging her presence (I know it is an acquired skill, but it is worth learning). Be blissfully oblivious to her presence. If she addresses you directly, respond politely, briefly, and return to talking to someone else (as if a stranger had briefly interrupted a conversation).

      Her inserting herself into your space is a power play. It makes her feel powerful to make you uncomfortable. Don’t give her the satisfaction. She will eventually back off for the most part and move on to new victims. And, eventually, more and more people will see her true character which will make it easier for you as well.

      (Until she finds a new way to be a pestilential plague–it took a few years, but mine is trying to worm her way back. I am working on nipping that in the bud.)

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        This is really good advice. Also, when you left the conversation Snarkus Aurelius, you left the door open for Jane to “fill in” the story to the others there, “Oh, Snarkus hates me. They were removed from a big project earlier this year and they blame me, but I had nothing to do with it.”

          1. Res Admin*

            To clarify: My Pest made the most of the fact that I would NOT bad mouth her. I would just redirect the conversation or refuse to discuss. It took about 6 months of the rest of the team trying to figure out what had happened and my feeling rather isolated. In the meantime, they thought I was overly sensitive or who knows what with Pest always whispering, whispering into their ears.

            And then the apologies started coming in. And other team members started requesting transfers.

            There were Reasons why no serious repercussions (Pest did pay a price and will never get promoted–or transferred to another unit for that matter), but the higher ups that knew and cared have left and the new ones haven’t figured it out yet. Hence my sudden discovery that Pest has volunteered to be the team point person for my new unit.

      2. Lucille2*

        This is brilliant advice. I had some mean girl drama at OldJob. Don’t give her power should be your mantra. Interact with her on a needs-to-know basis only. Don’t go around her, it just fuels the drama. Don’t trust her, but keep every interaction you have with her on the up and up. Initially, she’ll try to turn others against you, which is exactly why you shouldn’t leave when she enters a conversation. It’s also why you should avoid the temptation to make snarky remarks and be mindful of your body language in her presence. That can often be a dead giveaway that there’s some kind of tension and gives her an opening to act the victim.

        It’s a power play. Don’t play the game. Take the high road.

        1. uranus wars*

          I would 2nd this comment. She will try to, and may successfully, turn others against you. it can be a hard time to get through — I have had it happen to me.

          However, like Res Admin above, as others starting seeing her true colors the apologies came rolling in. Luckily my pest quit, and earned herself a “do not rehire” in the exit, which she found out about when she tried to come back.

    19. Fact & Fiction*

      I just want to echo the chorus singing that you acted perfectly appropriately. Once somebody TRIES TO GET YOU FIRED they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. Acting courteously or professionally toward a colleague does not mean you have to be overly friendly toward or socialize with them. Especially not someone who has outright tried to sabotage you. Your coworker who called you out for this is completely wrong. Jane did a terrible thing and she does not deserve kindness or friendliness from you, ESPECIALLY if she never faced consequences and MORE ESPECIALLY if she never sincerely apologized to you.

      In my opinion you’re definitely good here.

    20. JSPA*

      Hm, depends a bit on whether the grounds she tried to get you fired for were framing you for a project that she (or someone else) screwed up, or if it was for interpersonal behavior issues.

      If the first (and if you’re 100% sure that someone didn’t frame you first, and her secondly), then the cut direct seems about right.

      If the second–especially if the both of you temperamentally mix like…oil and water? Bleach and ammonia? Cats and vacuum cleaners? Then it may be better to stay and be civil (while giving nothing away), making it abundantly clear that any interpersonal problems have nothing to do with you being intrinsically difficult or unpleasant in any way. After all, given that she presumably does not like you, putting on a show of collegiality is probably the most likely explanation for why she’s popping into your conversations in the first place.

      Basically, it may be the first salvo of a new, “see how nice I am and how difficult S-A is” campaign. Don’t play into it.

    21. Fibchopkin*

      Oh man Snark, I don’t think you did anything wrong per se; and Jane deserves to contract a dreadful case of fungus infection somewhere sensitive… but. (There’s always a but, isn’t there?) I think that I have to agree with some of the other commenters that, while your behavior wasn’t precisely rude, it may come off as a tad unprofessional to colleagues who don’t know much about the situation. Especially the bit with the obviously hostile body language when you crossed your arms and gave Jane a “look”. That behavior, combined with deliberately avoiding Jane and noticeably excusing yourself from any conversation she joins could be construed by outsiders as mean or even bullying behavior. Not that Jane doesn’t deserve much, much worse than your relatively minor treatment of her! It’s just that you wouldn’t want to shoot yourself in the foot by coming off as unprofessional or dramatic during networking events.
      The real question for me is, if your employers caught her fraudulently attempting to get another employee terminated, why is she still employed by them? Trying to get someone wrongfully fired is a BIG deal, one that could potentially cost the employer a massive headache and financial drain in the case of a wrongful termination suit, depending on the circumstances. It’s too bad your company didn’t let her go. Someone who only knows the bare details of the situation might be thinking along the same lines and come to the conclusion that if Jane didn’t get fired over the incident, there must be a reason why, and maybe they will look at the way they have seen you ice Jane out and combine it with her continued employment and attribute the rumors to a spat between coworkers or even assume that Jane’s continued employment indicates that there was some truth to her allegations.

    22. alannaofdoom*

      If ever there were a contemporary situation for which the Cut Direct is appropriate, it’s this.

    23. Aphrodite*

      Your co-worker who called you out was wrong. What you are not doing is rude. Instead you are using the cut indirect, which seems appropriate to me. You are ignoring her without making others around you uncomfortable with your actions.

    24. Stranger than fiction*

      All I can offer is a reminder that Karma eventually kicks in.
      I had a similar situation with an office mean girl, who told everyone I was responsible for a negative glassdoor review (long story, I was involved in a conversation about glassdoor and suggested to a couple people in a specific department some specific constructive criticism may help their cause, but in a “they told two friends and they told two friends…” kind of thing, a couple ex employees from an adjacent dept posted some mildly bad to horrific reviews). She went on and on and chastised me about loyalty…
      Well she was fired about six months later, for screaming and cussing at another coworker. And in the aftermath, we found out so many things about her work history here, how she cheated, lied etc….and then she went on to work for our competitor, with whom we had a lawsuit, and several of our customers have since told us “she calls all the time but we won’t buy from her.” And “I think she’s slept with all our salespeople “ and things like that.
      As petty as it sounds, it’s satisfying to know her true nature came out.

      1. Texan at Heart*

        I completely understand why you took this approach. This is such hurtful behavior on her part! I’ve been there too, and it’s unspeakably scary and painful.

        I wonder if you could approach it from the perspective of showing the best of who you are, rather than not dealing with her awful behavior. I think others are often more impressed and encouraged by a friendly approach to someone like this (not trusting- just polite and seemingly normal). The other person’s bad behavior then speaks for itself, and you don’t have to worry about anyone’s perception of you. (Plus it shows strong confidence, leadership skills, and makes you look good).

        Good luck!

    25. Forking great username*

      I feel like I would need the visual to go along with this. I’m a high school teacher, and in my honest opinion, the arms crossed/head tilted/eyebrow raised move makes me think of my students. Specifically, my students that always seem to find themselves in the middle of drama and give this look to other girls in a “wanna fight” sort of way. So it may be that my reading is off due to my own background, but as a person who doesn’t know the backstory, you’d body language wouldn’t give off the best impression.

    26. Artemesia*

      The ‘direct cut’ while justified in your situation doesn’t work well in the workplace. I would shift to the ‘cordial stranger’ i.e. vaguely cordial, but you don’t quite recognize who she is and you move away, as you have, from interactions with her. Anything that makes you look rude to onlookers hurts you more than her justified as you are. I am sorry she was as successful as she was. I managed to get my nemesis fired but quite different than your situation. For years I had protected his job when management wanted to not renew his contracts; then he screwed me over just one more time and so the next time, I just sat back and let it come down on him. So if you can inflict harm on her — great. But be mindful that things you do don’t hurt you worse. So the ‘cordial stranger’ is pleasant, but doesn’t engage beyond shallow pleasantries and avoids interaction as gracefully as possible.

    27. Shoes on My Cat*

      You handled it politely. That being said, jerks like her who manage to avoid getting fired for egregious jerk-ness tend to be brilliant at social/office politics. NEVER EVER trust her but if/when you can, out-nice her anytime there are witnesses. I lost my (at the time) DreamJob to one like her. And I was right to be furious. I was also polite. Yes, my colleagues and grand boss knew the backstory. Yes I worked with her for a year after that blowup. Yes, she got me fired anyway. Yes, she was eventually fired herself for incompetence two months after I left & wasn’t doing her work for her. But it was too late for me. Since then I’ve managed to confuse and dull the fangs of the *very few* MegaJerks I’ve dealt with in the decades since then. Not very satisfying AT ALL, but keeping my job(s) was. And eventually, the jerks have been transferred or fired. You know, since I was ALWAYS helping another colleague whenever Jerk was in a bind or needed training, so incompetence got displayed to all. Unless it was a minor thing and in front of a manager or office gossip. Then I’d help Jerk. So Jerk couldn’t complain I never helped. It was just that it was only with BS stuff that didn’t factor. And yes, STILL BITTER!!! ***BUT am now in dream job I never thought was possible beyond daydreams, so there’s that ;-).

    28. John Doe*

      I’d be careful, because while you’re not the bad guy, you could give “Jane” some ammunition to portray herself as being done dirty by you, rather than the other way around. Then you’d be in the position of saying “Yes, I was mean to Jane, BUT”… and after that “BUT,” people will tune you out.

      And that is if people address you at all about it. I learned this the hard way in a similar situation, and lost a lot of my contact network at that company. Even HR at that company took the side of the other person, until I presented hard evidence of retaliation (by the legal definition) and him violating company rules, and then they reluctantly stepped in.

    29. A. Traveller*

      Snark,
      If a coworker who knows the story calls you out for being rude, then sit up and listen.

      She’s waging a guerilla war on you, and she’s winning. Once you walk away, she controls the narrative, and I’d bet you everything that’s she’s batting her eyelids like crazy and asking the audience to help her fix your problem with poor little her. That’s why she’s going after you – you shut down and walk away without defending yourself. You’re an easy target, and the fact that you already ‘cost’ her a promotion probably just wet her appetite.

      I know this, because I went through a similar thing with a coworker. Only my situation ended with me ‘voluntarily’ finding a new job.

      Here’s what I’d have done different:

      1. Grey-stone her: Be unfailingly polite, but don’t give details. “Did you have a good weekend?” – “Thank you, I did!” etc. Twist all and any small talk into a very brief discussion about the job (“Looking forward to getting cracking on X”) and then tell her that you really need to get to . Don’t ever let her draw you in, or cause you to loose your cool. Remember that any details (“Bobs proposal was good, but needs more work”) can be twisted (“Snark said that Bobs proposal sucked!”).

      3. If possible, never be alone with her. Covertly or otherwise, make sure that other people witness your interactions at all time, and if anything comes up, make sure to go to them for advice. People in general like feeling knowledgeable, and dislike too much disruption – make her the disruptive one, and make sure you’re the one getting good advice on how to handle her behavior, not the other way around. Make sure that the focus is on her actions, and you come off as the one trying to keep (an understandably somewhat distant) peace.

      4. STAY! Don’t let her control the narrative, ever. Don’t loose your cool, don’t walk away, don’t expect people to remember what a nice, decent person you are when she’s plying them with innuendo and ‘innocent’ questions about why you dislike her so much. Because even your most loyal coworkers will start to think since there’s so much smoke blowing around, there has to be a fire somewhere. You want to be there to remind them that there isn’t and you ARE a good person. Gossip happens behind your back – make her see your best side at all times front and center, no matter what (and yeah, I know exactly how much that sucks).

      6. Don’t defend yourself. Details are not your friend. If she tries to paint a situation in the wrong light, tell her that you are sorry she feels this way, but you remember things differently. If she presses on, ask your witness for help. Don’t let her draw you into a “he said, she said” debate, or any kind of debate, because in that situation the best storyteller will win, and she’s most likely been there a lot more than you have. Also, people often have a sympathy for the underdog – again, if she can show others how you ‘undermine her narrative’ and ‘disregard her opinions’ then they’ll side with her against you, no matter your prior history.

      7. Read up on psychopaths, borderlines and narcissism. Quora is a pretty good place for that. I’m not saying she’s any of those (she’s most likely not), but it helps to know the tactics you may be defending yourself against. Check out gaslighting while you’re at it. Just don’t EVER diagnose, especially not out loud to others – but know thy enemy.

      Best of luck to you.

    30. Probably Nerdy*

      This is something that I would really like to see Alison tackle – where is the line between “reasonable cold shoulder” and “rude/immature silent treatment”? Even Miss Manners supports the cold shoulder at times.

      I’m asking because I too had a formerly cordial coworker do something heinous to me (lied to my boss about my actions) and I stopped interacting with him socially beyond curt sentences that had to do with work. Things got weird there and even his work-related emails were just full of ass-hattery so I know I made the right choice as he showed himself to be a bully. But it didn’t stop my boss from lecturing me about it. I later quit that place because it was so toxic, but still.

    31. This is the story of a man named Neil Fisk*

      First off, I’d like to comment that you are completely justified in being angry with Jane for her attempt to get you fired. I say this because, honestly, as I read your letter I get the impression that you might be experiencing some difficulty in convincing yourself of this. And maybe you aren’t getting a lot of support from friends and co-workers on this point. But I will say it again, for emphasis: you are completely justified in being angry with Jane for her attempt to get you fired.

      It may be difficult to believe, but you probably won’t be Jane’s only victim.

      There’s a book called The Asshole Survival Guide (written by the same fellow who wrote The No Asshole Rule). It doesn’t have any magic answers to your problem, but it might help you in your thinking.

      I seem to possess some quality that attracts a-holes, so perhaps I shouldn’t even try to give you advice. But the one thing I did, which I believe worked out well over the long haul, was to keep to the High Road. Ie, don’t lower yourself to the same kind of a-hole scheming behavior, don’t seek revenge, etc. It’s not a quick fix, but I found that over time I developed a reputation for being honest and even-tempered and a “straight shooter”. It was a bit like a suit of armor. And it happened that occasionally someone would talk some trash about me to management – but management would tend to dismiss it out of hand. I know this sounds like some Pollyanna fairytale – but it really did work out well for me.

      Of course, it takes time and effort to do this: you can’t fake a good reputation. For instance, I had a policy that I wouldn’t say bad things about my co-workers. “Jane and I don’t get along” was the worst thing I would say. It was rough – sometimes impossible – to adhere to it 100% of the time. But it took really egregious behavior, or my boss telling me they had a serious business need to know, or etc, before I’d ‘break policy’. This is probably more than many people would want to commit to. But in general, it’s not difficult – for most people – to simply not be an asshole.

      I wish you the best in dealing with this.

  4. What’s with Today, today?*

    My husband is a defense attorney. Our county’s elected District Attorney lost his last re-election bid, it was decided during the March primary, and his term will end at the close of this calendar year. This week he sent all the attorneys and court personnel the following letter (verbatim except for name/phone # change):

    “Dear Court Personnel and Counsel:

    Please be advised I will be out of the office with limited availability from October 8, 2018 through November 1, 2018 at which time I will be on vacation the rest of the calendar year. It would be greatly appreciated if you would make note of these dates and not schedule any hearings that require my personal involvement during this time frame. Any and all matters needing my office’s attention should be forwarded to my first assistant John Smith.

    Thank you for your understanding in this matter. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at my office at 555-5555.”

    My husband says the first assistant is a good deal maker, and he likes the first assistant better, but a lot of the local attorneys are highly pissed. Any one have thoughts?

    1. WellRed*

      Can’t speak to the legal profession specifically, but this seems pretty typical for a public/local government position.

      1. Kittymommy*

        Yep, at least in my experience it’s very common. When one of my previous bosses lost his primary everyone was shocked that he continued to show up to stuff afterwards.

        1. What's with Today, today?*

          Our last DA (that this guy beat 2 terms ago) kept coming to everything too. He also ran for Judge the next election cycle and won, so that may be why.

          1. Jenn*

            Yeah, this guy should never ever be a DA again. Frankly, he should not be an attorney. His lack of ethics is shocking.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      On one hand, it seems kind of shitty, like he’s being a sore loser. But on the other hand, if the vacation benefits are “use it or lose it”, I can’t blame him. Plus I can understand not wanting to start any trials that might continue into the next term that another DA would need to pick up.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        It’s definitely use it or lose it. The county had to pay a lady $12k when she retired last year for unused vacation and they changed the policy during the very next commissioner’s meeting.

        1. A person*

          Sounds to me like anyone who’s mad about this guy using his vacation time (which is part of his compensation package) instead of losing it should take that up with the people who changed the payout policy!

    3. Qwerty*

      My first thought was to be annoyed, but then I remembered that some government jobs compensate overtime work with extra vacation hours that don’t pay out. The people I know in those situations usually had their retirement party and then went on leave for weeks/months until those days ran out.

      I think the biggest problem here is the lack of notice. It would have been better if this was sent out a month ago instead of sprung on everyone a week before he left.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        The overtime wouldn’t come into play here. Being a prosecutor (at least in our county) is very much an 8-5 job. My husband was one for about 6 years, and I don’t remember them ever being there late. If you have a major crime, they may have to go out in the middle of the night, but we average about 5-6 homicides per year, tops. I’m media, and several of the attorneys have actually contacted me to see if we’ll run a story, their thought process was basically “Your tax dollars at work.” We aren’t running a story about it though. I actually got contacted about the letter by a local family law attorney, then I asked my husband and he was like, “Oh yeah, no big deal. Why is she upset?” Then he asked around, and a lot of attorneys are upset and annoyed.

        1. Jenn*

          My sister is a prosecutor in a large city and I have been a prosecutor’s intern and clerk in another city and this is definitely not the case there. My sister will work until midnight regularly before a major case, as will her colleagues. She has has to do crime scene duty, which drags her out of bed regularly in the middle of the night.

          Maybe because I am used to a busy urban jurisdiction, but I find this genuinely shocking. Not having a functioning criminal system for three months is a clear miscarriage of justice. It isn’t up to the defense attorneys, their clients have rights here. Waiting an additional three months for trial can have a huge affect on a defender. My sister reprimanded a junior attorney because she left someone in jail a weekend longer than he needed to be (they found evidence that cleared the guy).

          He doesn’t get his vacation? Tough. You’re a DA, it’s a public trust position, you’re bound by ethical rules, and people’s rights don’t get trampled over your vacation.

          1. What’s with Today, today?*

            Yeah, it’s way different here, rural Texas. My husband has a client in jail now, and all the charges against him were dropped last Wednesday. The guy is still in jail and probably won’t get out until mid-week next week, and my husband will have to push to make that happen. But that would be true even if they weren’t short staffed. If you are involved in a major crime, it’s about a two year turnaround on trial here. There are only a handful of DPS crime scene labs in the state, and DNA can take a year to get back. (I do a lot of media crime stories, and a weekly show with our sheriff, that’s how I met my husband and hear these things). Our biggest problem out here is meth. I’m sure the prosecutors work late when they have a murder trial or big sex case, but we may have 2-3 of those trials a year, and that’s a pretty liberal estimate.

            1. Jenn*

              I find this genuinely upsetting and I have generally been on the state side of things. This is just not okay. Being in jail for extended periods can absolutely ruin someone. The fact that they don’t take this seriously is sick.

          2. Lynn*

            How many assistants are there in the office? This question is very different if there is 1 or 101.

        2. Lynn*

          How do you go home at 5 while on trial? I feel lucky to get more than 6 hours of sleep when I’m on trial.

    4. LKW*

      What’s the alternative? I mean, if the guy has to use his vacation or lose it and there is no replacement who can fill in while he’s out – it sounds like he’s trying to put everyone on notice that he’s between a rock and a hard place. I’ve no doubt that the pissed off attorneys would be equally pissed if someone took a perk (vacation) away or refused to pay them for said unused perk.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      In my state, attorneys must book vacation as “secured leave” in the courts they practice in well in advance or get sanctioned by the Bar. I don’t know if your DA is an attorney or purely a politician. But either way, I can totally understand why the local attorneys would be pissed off.

      Also, it’s a huge pain to try to get anything heard between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Things like your situation make it even harder, which also is going to annoy attorneys.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        Wow! That’s interesting. He’s an attorney first, returning to private practice in January.

    6. Anon From Here*

      As an attorney, I’d say whether John or Jane Defense Attorney decides to honor that request depends on how collegial — or, at least, how not openly hostile — the defense and prosecution bars are toward each other. Will there be long-term repercussions? Will other prosecutors hold a grudge of some kind?

      For your clients, though, will honoring the request cause continuances in their cases that unfairly affect them?

    7. SoooAnonymous*

      As someone dealing with the DA’s office because I have a criminal trial pending, I would be pissed. I’ve already dealt with months of pre-trial. Now I could potentially (finally) be moving to trial, except the actual DA is out of the office, so I have yet another delay. What happened to my right to a speedy trial?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        That would be a good question for the judge/your attorney. Hopefully, you have an attorney. She may advise you this is a hornet’s nest and do not kick it as it will cause the DA to keep track of times you ask for an adjournment. I dunno, your lawyer would have the best answer given your givens.

      2. Jenn*

        It is possible your attorney didn’t drop their speedy demand, but yeah, talk to your lawyer. My sister has definitely had to cancel vacations and similar due to trials and hearings.

        Does the justice system just not function outside of major cities?

    8. samiratou*

      I can understand why the local attorneys are pissed, but it seems the nature of the business, and if DA needs to use his vacation, then I wouldn’t begrudge him that at all.

      1. Jenn*

        The nature of the business is actually the exact opposite. A defense attorney has obligations to their clients, who have legal rights.

        I mean seriously, is this guy just planning in thwir being no bimd hearings for three months? So what, every person arrested just sits in jail for three months?

        I don’t think people understand the full extent of the implications here. He has no back up, he MUST be available.

        Hopefully whatever judge you have will make him see the light. I think threatening to jail him for contempt if he refuses to appear or have coverage at criminal cases for three months is appropriate. As is a complaint to the state bar.

    9. CTT*

      I think it’s understandable given what people said about the use it or lose it nature of time off, but I think the way he worded it was off. If he had just taken out that middle sentence and cut directly to contacting his assistant it would have come off as less “please don’t make my life difficult.”

    10. From the High Tower on the Hill*

      Yeah, working in politics this is incredibly normal unfortunately. Once you, or the person you work for, loses, you kind of just tap out and start looking immediately for something new.

    11. JSPA*

      To what degree is a DA’s personal involvement truly necessary in cases? That is, what percentage of trials will have to be postponed (if any?).

      I can’t imagine that trials often require the present of the specific person who currently holds the job (as opposed to the office holder). Otherwise, they’d fall apart anytime someone was voted out (or stepped down, or was indicted) or in counties where it’s not an elected office, simply quit or was fired.

      I’m guessing that most daily functions of a DA can also be accomplished by the Assistant DA. In which case–what’s the anger about? He’s got vacation to use, a tight deadline to use it. The office will be short-staffed, which always stinks, but that’s a function of understaffing in general, and not planning for the known, predictable results of changes in vacation rules, in specific.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        Well, we are in one of the poorest counties in our state, and the whole office staffs under 10 attorneys and including the appellate attorney. They are extremely short-staffed. All three or the other felony attorneys and one of the misdemeanor attorney’s have already left for other jobs. The new first assistant has been there three weeks, but is extremely qualified and has been a prosecutor in neighboring counties before(and in our county once before). So essentially, the office usually has 7-9 full-time attorneys and they now have four, including the DA that is out for the year.

        1. What's with Today, today?*

          My husband said no trials will happen at all, if it’s not a plea deal, nothing will happen on the case until 2019.

          1. Someone On-Line*

            To me this is media worthy, and I say this as the wife of a criminal defense attorney. Not throwing the DA under the bus, but explaining what is going on and why trials may be delayed and an understaffed agency that serves the people are all worthy news topics. It’s not breaking news, but it’s relevant.

            1. Videogame Lurker*

              I would call it informing the public, which is news, under the basic terminology of what news is – whatever the public should know, needs to know, or is in the interest of the public to know.

              AKA I took a mass media class about news.

          2. Huxley*

            That seems like it would unfairly affect people involved with the cases. I agree with the previous poster that it is media-worthy.

          3. Llamas at Law*

            This could potentially be a very big deal as it involves the constitutional rights of the accused.

        2. Jenn*

          Seems like that call would be the judge’s, not the Da’s. I mean, what if a speedy demand is dropped? There’s a constitutional right here.

          Sucks for the guy’s vacation but no way a judge is just going to let a whole jurisdiction operate with no criminal trials. You’ll have constitutional violations left and right.

          Alternately, if no one from the state shows for any felony trials, that might be grounds to get a metric ton of stuff dropped. I have never, ever, seen the state just fail to appear.

          Heck, you guys might consider a bar complaint against this attorney. Sure he lost his election but while in his position he is bound by prosecutorial ethics rules.

          1. What’s with Today, today?*

            So, the speedy trial thing doesn’t happen here. My husband works in two counties. The county I’ve referred to in my original post is our home county. The second county he works in is a neighboring county and is the county where the Bernie case happened…the case that was made into a movie with Jack Black, Shirley McClaine and Matt M. I work for the radio station featured in that movie, and husband work with the DA that was played by Matt M. Again, my original post is not about the Bernie county, but our home county, 20 minutes north, but in the Bernie County, it is not unusual for my husband to have cases that are 10-15 years old. They have a new judge that has dismissed a few, but he just took a case from 2006 to trial there, and that’s a normal thing. I’ve often asked him how they do that and he said the judges don’t care and just deny the motions.

            1. What’s with Today, today?*

              My husband has tried to interview witnesses that end up being dead or the defendant moved out of state a decade ago…all kinds of stuff. He’ll get a *new* court appointment and the police report will be 13 years old.

            2. Jenn*

              Jeez, this is straight up sickening. The constitution just doesn’t apply in rural places? That is absurd. Someone call the ACLU.

    12. SechsKatzen*

      My first thought is to be annoyed because private attorneys don’t always get that same courtesy! But it’s very much how the environment works and so there isn’t anything particularly unusual–maybe specifying that he would be “on vacation” was a bit much. He could’ve just said he’d be unavailable.

  5. Detective Amy Santiago*

    My friend ran into a weird thing with an application this week. A section of it requested a statement “in your own handwriting”. I’ve never heard of this being a thing before (and, no, this isn’t relevant to the job description).

    Anyone else ever see it?

    1. irene adler*

      I’ve seen a few job ads where they require a handwriting sample.
      Some folks believe they can discern personality characteristics from the way the handwriting looks. A poor way to judge job candidates, IMHO.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        It’s a pseudoscience; I would absolutely self-select out if that were the case (and I have very neat handwriting).

        1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          I have dyspraxia. My handwriting is legible, but ugly. I think if that’s not part of the job, it shouldn’t be a criterion.

    4. Audiophile*

      Never seen that. The only time it might be useful would be for fundraising positions, where you might be writing cards or notes to funders/donors.

    5. Lupin Lady*

      I’ve been asked twice to show my handwriting in an interview, presumably for the purpose of ensuring it’s legible to other people, which seems reasonable. I only had to write 2-3 words in each case before the people said I could stop.

    6. Squeeble*

      That’s bizarre. Any chance it was some sort of malapropism, like they meant to say “in your own words”?

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        That was my thought, but they were asking why you wanted to work there, so I’m not sure that makes sense.

        She’s interviewing there today, so I’m hoping she asks about it.

    7. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      So weird! I abandoned cursive writing years ago, since college note-taking degraded it to the point it looked like med student handwriting, so now I have two styles. Maybe for whatever reason they can’t/don’t use captchas, but it’s eccentric to the point of raising suspicions. Definitely a no-no for me.

      1. Amber T*

        My handwriting is a mix of cursive and scribbles, probably half in my own language. If I’m writing something that I know someone will read, I’ll write it in block lettering that’s nice and legible… but idk, I hold a pen weird? So my hand and pinkie cramps for some reason after a while, and it’s just not comfortable. But if I’m in a meeting writing notes for what I need to do, it’s in script, 40% of the letters are missing, and most people can’t read it.

        (I do tend to remember things better when I write them down versus typing them out – my favorite classes in college posted their powerpoints before class, where I’d print them out and make notes on the side.)

        1. Butter Makes Things Better*

          And now I hope you’re imagining this response to you is written in calligraphy, engraved in stone or spray-painted on a cake. :)

    10. Miss Wels*

      Maybe they want to make sure that candidates are filling out their applications themselves and not having their parents or wives do it for them.

      2. Zombeyonce*

        How would this even suss that out? Unless they did a comparison of your handwriting on the application and a sample you did in front of them at an interview, which would be so over the top I would just leave.

        1. Miss Wels*

          Good point, I just have been reading posts on this site long enough knowing that filling out applications for family members is a thing people do so it was a thought I had.

    12. Reba*

      I understand that graphology is somewhat common (?) in some European countries. It’s like an even-less-science-based personality questionnaire, trying to read your level of self-esteem in the stroke of your T’s. I hope it’s not becoming more widespread!

      Even if it’s not graphology as such , it seems like a weird screening tool. My sibling, a smart and ethical person, has the worst handwriting on earth (ON EARTH) and I hate to think of judgment on this costing them professionally.

      1. irene adler*

        Graphology is not so much about quality of handwriting as it is about the characteristics.
        Examples:
        lower case o & a opened at the top: open, talkative, warm person
        lower case o & a opened at the bottom: dishonest person (think about how one writes ‘a’ and ‘o’. Awfully hard to leave a gap at the bottom of these letters)
        Signature: if last name is larger in size than first name: family -oriented person
        Signature: if first name is larger in size than last name: self-oriented person
        Wide or narrow margins on the paper: healthy or unhealthy respect for boundaries
        Handwriting slants left=introverted
        Handwriting slants right=extroverted
        Letter ‘i’ dotted with a circle=immaturity
        Written lines (on unlined paper) trend up = happy person
        Written lines (on unlined paper) trend down= depression
        Letters in the words get larger (left to right)= immaturity
        Letters in the words get smaller or remain same size (left to right) = mature person
        Larger print size = gregarious person
        Smaller print size = modest or shy person
        Heavy pen pressure on the page = virile person with a zest for life
        Very weak pen pressure on the page = bad health

        I could go on and on.

        1. General Ginger*

          Wow. I really hope nobody is making these assumptions about me from my handwriting. Based on this list, I’m an “extrovert” (I’m not. However, I was taught that proper writing had to slant right, and our elementary school teacher penalized us if it didn’t), at least somewhat “dishonest” (I leave a gap in my lowercase a, again, because I was taught to do so by the above teacher), “self-oriented” (as a young adult, modeled my signature on the signature of someone I admired) — I could also go on!

          1. Reba*

            Yeah, I was wondering how these would hold up on different eras/cultures of handwriting instruction!

        2. Reba*

          Yeah, I get the distinction. I was saying that even if they are not applying the ‘principles’ of graphology, his handwritten whatever form would look a mess.

          Also, LOL at “virile person with zest for life.” My spouse writes their O’s that way, I’ll have to watch out ;) And as a former instructor, I’d rewrite “Wide or narrow margins on the paper” as “healthy or unhealthy respect for the minimum page length of assignment.”

          Sorry, this is no more harmful than astrology, I guess, but it is no more scientific than that either.

        6. Marthooh*

          Yes, children, this is what we did before there were “Which Marvel Supervillain Are You?” quizzes on the interwebs.

        9. TardyTardis*

          I have a signature, but then I have my actual writing, which is mainly print, and then there’s my Modified Italic for fancy. I would probably fulfill this requirement in Modified Italic. (I’m don’t have multiple personalities, except when I’m writing, but I am lefthanded–my print looks a great deal like my dad’s, who was also lefthanded, and my daughter’s printing looks like mine, and she’s lefthanded. My son’s handwriting looks like his father’s, both of whom specialize in Dead Spider).

    13. misspiggy*

      That’s interesting. Wouldn’t it come up against disability discrimination rules, as it would exclude dyslexic people who rely on spellchecks, and people with all sorts of physical disabilities – oh, maybe that’s what they want…

      1. Miss Wels*

        My understanding of ADA laws is that it’s only illegal to select out disabled people if their disability prevents them from doing the essential functions of their job. So if handwriting was a primary job duty and for whatever reason typing was not an option as a workaround it would be legal to deny them the job. But if their primary job was replacing spouts on teapots and their disability allowed them to do that but prevented them from having nice handwriting it would be illegal.

    15. Bea*

      My handwriting changes depending on my mood. It’s actually the only reason why I’m putting off being a notary public…having to have a consistent signature is virtually impossible for me. Waaaaah. What a weird thing to request on an application.

      1. LilySparrow*

        My handwriting changes a good bit, it was never a problem for me as a notary.

        I didn’t want to be a notary at my last law firm because I’d worked at enough law firms to know that the boss is always going to lean on you to do a “courtesy” for a “good client.”

        I mean, it’s bad enough if my boss brings me the papers after a meeting & has me notarize them after the client left. But then there’s the times they want you to notarize signed papers that were FedExed from out of state…

        1. Bea*

          My default personality is to stand up to authority and follow rules with a heavy dose of “lol no”, so I’m def not worried about anyone leaning on me like that. It’s mostly for government contract crud and not for a legal firm…an attorney trying to tell me to break the law and oath, Lord…give me strength

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I used to have a set signature that I used only at work. Now I am being told with electronic signature for credit cards, people have a signature that they only use on credit card machines, so their signature is not forged onto other documents electronically.

        My suggestion is to have a sig just for when you sign as a notary.

        1. TardyTardis*

          I have an electronic signature that I used as a tax preparer. I always give sincere condolences to people when they have to sign on that POS electronic signing screen, it’s pretty ghastly. But it sure beats having to file paper for everyone.

      3. Courageous cat*

        My handwriting changes all the time, but my signature never does. I’m surprised that’s the case for you – esp since I think it’s generally expected that your signature will stay the same. Either way I wouldn’t let it hold you back! Being a notary can be useful.

    17. Persimmons*

      I work with engineers, so my mind immediately went to a subtle form of ageism. Older engineers who learned on drafting tables usually have impeccable all-caps handwriting. Younger engineers who learned on CAD software didn’t need to develop that distinctive “engineer handwriting”.

    18. Kat Em*

      I’ve been asked to hand-write a paragraph in response to an essay-type question as part of an interview, but that job required writing a lot of documentation by hand. They really just wanted to make sure it would be halfway legible and you wouldn’t be an embarrassment to the company.

    19. JSPA*

      Yup. I would end the application right there, unless I were desperate.

      But then, I had a highly-respected, so-called handwriting expert submit testimony that the signatures I’d submitted on a petition were forged. I had to get notarized statements from the signers to the effect that those were, in fact, their signatures. So I know that “expertise” firsthand not only as a party-game-level pseudoscience, but as a pseudoscience that’s actively used to frame honest people and pervert the political system.

    20. dawbs*

      Back in the dark ages of my younger years, one of my bosses at an entry-level retail-esque job required part of the application to be hand-written by the applicant as a literacy test.
      There was nothing that prevented someone from having the friend w/ good handwriting or a typewriter from typing most of the application, but he wanted to be sure that they had fundamental literacy skills.

    21. Cedarthea*

      My only thought with this is to confirm that the candidate is able to write.

      I run a summer camp and I have had teenagers (18-20) who cannot read cursive and some that can’t really write (pen to paper, as opposed to typing). My only thought is that this is a position that has some handwritten requirements (like filling out incident reports) and they want to confirm that the candidate can write and that their writing can be read.

      I had one camp counsellor (who did not ask for an official accommodation) who when quitting over the summer was unable to write her own letter of resignation (and I wasn’t able to let her use my work computer as it has seriously confidential stuff on it and she had already given verbal notice), so I wrote, I read verbally, she read and then she signed it.

      It was only then that I understood why she hadn’t been handing in incident reports, but also she never asked for an accommodation as I had several staff who she could have done verbal dictations to complete the reporting.

    22. Cardamom*

      I hope it’s not for graphology because that is just a bunch of pseudoscience hocu-pocus.

      Is it possible that they are screening out people who can’t read/write in general? I know in some job areas, there will be applicants who really can’t read/write, and they’ll have a friend or family member fill out the application for them. So employers find ways to gently screen out those people. But I’m just grasping at straws here, no clue if it applies in this situation.

    24. Artemesia*

      This is a thing in Germany where handwriting analysis is considered a useful way to judge someone. My writing is barely legible, so I would be doomed if this were required.

    25. Shoes on My Cat*

      Possibly that “handwriting science” BUT it could also be for a job that includes writing phone messages, whiteboard notices, etc. (My job! And some of my writing is client-facing. Eep! Although for fun, when it’s only regulars, the info goes up in cursive, because!)

      1. JR*

        Could just be to see if people can follow directions or just to eliminate people applying to jobs indiscriminately, on the theory that it will weed out people who don’t really want it.

  6. Tara S.*

    Petty Office Grievances: If you need hot water, and somebody already had the kettle on, do you:

    A: Leave and wait until whoever put the kettle on comes back before getting your tea on.
    B: Look around for whoever put the kettle on, fail to see anyone, take the hot water you need BUT then refill the kettle and put it back on so there will be hot water for whomever put it on originally.
    C: Take the hot water and don’t fill the kettle back up, sucks to be you person who needed water.

    (Personally I subscribe to B, so of course C drives me up the wall. The worst was when somebody took my tea packet right out of my cup. Baffling and infuriating.)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would probably do B, but I actually have a kettle on my desk to avoid these type of issues :)

      1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        I’m going to take a stab and say it’s a fussy little man who wears shorts, socks, and sandals at the same time and says that people who leave their food “mess” unattended are on a power trip, wanting to “control” his environment. He’s probably still smug about the “lessons” he teaches people.

        Or Dolores Umbridge. Dolores Umbridge would take tea packets. I’m pretty sure that’s why she was given remote assignments instead of working at Death Eater Central.

        2. TardyTardis*

          Dolores Umbridge fixes her lunch off the tray waiting to be served to a meeting of higher-ups (she’s not in the meeting herself).

      1. Beancounter Eric*

        Try using boiling water sometime…..bet you’ll find it makes better tea.

        Look up “A Nice Cup of Tea” online….really good essay from 1946 on making a proper cup of tea. Also, if you search Royal Society of Chemistry tea, you should find a paper they published on the preparation of an ideal cup of tea.

        Cup’s empty – time to fill the kettle.

        Cheers!!

        1. Rectilinear Propagation*

          I’ve never been in an office that provided a kettle. One of my co-workers has his own, a rather nice one, but the office has a water machine that does hot water. And the coffee machine is one of those that use single use packet/pod things so you can’t use it to boil water.

          1. Kat Em*

            You can make water with a pod machine actually! Just remove the last person’s pod and shut the machine, tricking it into thinking you’re making coffee. It will heat the water and squirt it into your cup. You might get a tiny touch of coffee residue, but most tea is strong enough that you shouldn’t notice any difference in flavor.

            3. Lindsay*

              Yeah, once a Keurig type machine is used for coffee, you can never get good tea out of it. It always has a coffee taste to it.

        3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          If Quill is using Oolong-cut or green tea, the slightly lower temperature is actually better. (Oh, whom do I kid? I never turn teasnob off.)

          1. Le’Veon Bell is right*

            My understanding is that boiling water is worse for most kinds of tea! The instructions I’ve been given for both green and black tea were that you should boil the water, remove from heat, and then let cool for at least a full minute before pouring over the teabag. Supposedly it can actually burn the leaves if you don’t!

        5. LabTech*

          Interesting! I was under the impression that sub-boiling water was ideal – supposedly the dissolved oxygen enhances the flavor. (Boiling water has a much lower dissolved gas concentration due to the sparging action of the water.) Personally, I can’t tell the difference, but the pedant in me needs to know the “proper” way to do it!

          1. Beancounter Eric*

            From the Royal Society of Chemistry:

            How to make a Perfect Cup of Tea
            Ingredients: Loose-leaf Assam tea; soft water; fresh, chilled milk; white sugar.
            Implements: Kettle; ceramic tea-pot; large ceramic mug; fine mesh tea strainer; tea
            spoon, microwave oven.
            Draw fresh, soft water and place in kettle and boil. Boil just the required quantity to
            avoid wasting time, water and power.
            While waiting for the water to boil place a ceramic tea pot containing a quarter of a
            cup of water in a microwave oven on full power for one minute.
            Synchronise your actions so that you have drained the water from the microwaved pot
            at the same time that the kettle water boils.
            Place one rounded teaspoon of tea per cup into the pot.
            Take the pot to the kettle as it is boiling, pour onto the leaves and stir.
            Leave to brew for three minutes.
            The ideal receptacle is a ceramic mug or your favourite personal mug.
            Pour milk into the cup FIRST, followed by the tea, aiming to achieve a colour that is
            rich and attractive.
            Add sugar to taste.
            Drink at between 60-65 degrees Centigrade to avoid vulgar slurping which results
            from trying to drink tea at too high a temperature.
            Personal chemistry: to gain optimum ambience for enjoyment of tea aim to achieve
            a seated drinking position in a favoured home spot where quietness and calm will
            elevate the moment to a special dimension. For best results carry a heavy bag of
            shopping – of walk the dog – in cold, driving rain for at least half an hour beforehand.
            This will make the tea taste out of this world.
            Recommended ideal reading to accompany The Perfect Cup of Tea: Down and Out in Paris
            and London by George Orwell.
            Dr Andrew Stapley of Loughborough University writes:
            · Use freshly drawn water that has not previously been boiled. Previously boiled water will
            have lost some of its dissolved oxygen which is important to bring out the tea flavour.
            · Avoid “hard” water as the minerals it contains gives rise to unpleasant tea scum. If you
            live in hard water area use softened (filtered) water. For the same reason do not use
            bottled mineral water.
            · To achieve perfection, we advocate using a tea-pot with loose tea. The pot should be
            made of ceramic as metal pots can sometimes taint the flavour of the tea. Tea bags are a
            handy convenience, but they do slow down infusion, and favour infusion of the slower
            infusing but less desirable higher molecular weight tannins (see below).
            · It is not necessary to use a lot of tea. 2 grammes (a teaspoon) per cup is normally
            sufficient.
            · Tea infusion needs to be performed at as high a temperature as is possible, and this
            needs a properly pre-warmed pot. Swilling a small amount of hot water in the pot for a
            couple of seconds is not enough. Fill at least a quarter of the pot with boiling water and
            keep it there for half a minute. Then, in quick succession, drain the water from the pot, add
            the tea and then fill with the other boiled water from the kettle.
            A better alternative is to pre-warm the pot using a microwave oven! Add 1/4 cup of water to
            the pot and microwave on full power for a minute. Then drain, and add tea and boiling
            water from the kettle. Aim to synchronise events such that the kettle water is added
            immediately after it has boiled, and just after you have drained the water. Taking “the pot
            to the kettle” will marginally help keep the temperature high.
            · Brew for typically 3 to 4 minutes (depending on the tea). It is a myth that brewing for
            longer times causes more caffeine to infuse into the tea. Caffeine is a relatively quick
            infuser and caffeine infusion is largely complete within the first minute. More time is,
            however, needed for the polyphenolic compounds (tannins) to come out which give the tea
            is colour and some of its flavour. Infusing for longer times than this, however, introduces
            high molecular weight tannins which leave a bad aftertaste.
            · Use your favourite cup. Never use polystyrene cups, which result in the tea being too hot
            to drink straightaway (and will also degrade the milk, see below). Large mugs retain their
            heat much longer than small cups in addition to providing more tea!
            · Add fresh chilled milk, not UHT milk which contains denatured proteins and tastes bad.
            Milk should be added before the tea, because denaturation (degradation) of milk proteins
            is liable to occur if milk encounters temperatures above 75°C. If milk is poured into hot tea,
            individual drops separate from the bulk of the milk and come into contact with the high
            temperatures of the tea for enough time for significant denaturation to occur. This is much
            less likely to happen if hot water is added to the milk. Once full mixing has occurred the
            temperature should be below 75°C, unless polystyrene cups were used.
            · Lastly add sugar to taste. Both milk and sugar are optional, but they both act to moderate
            the natural astringency of tea.
            · The perfect temperature to drink tea is between 60°C and 65°C, which should be obtained
            within a minute if the above guide is used. Higher temperatures than this require the
            drinker to engage in excessive air-cooling of the tea whilst drinking – or “slurping” in
            everyday parlance. Leaving a teaspoon in the tea for a few seconds is a very effective
            cooling alternative.

    4. Tami Too*

      I say “B” also for a couple of reasons. First, if the person was not in a big hurry to get their tea on, and they left the kettle unattended, they probably won’t mind if you get your tea on first. Second, if I am in the break room heating up something, or filling the icemaker water, or otherwise “adulting” in the morning, I will also fill up the tea kettle and turn it on for whomever may need hot water for tea. It takes a second, and it’s nice to walk into a steaming hot tea kettle rather than wait for tea. It’s just the right thing to do.

    6. Overeducated*

      A! They’re in line first, even if they are not standing directly over the kettle waiting for it to boil, so you’re interrupting them and making their tea-making into a longer process by taking the water and starting over. B if you are waiting a while and they don’t come back.

      1. Birch*

        Agreed, A. Even if time isn’t a factor at all, it’s like skipping in line. Doesn’t affect them that much, but it’s still a little rude.

    7. CatCat*

      This seems like an awfully small kettle. The office needs an upgrade. Then you can take the hot water and there is still hot water for the person who put it on!

      1. Kat the Russian*

        Ah, you haven’t yet encountered the “Puts just enough hot water in the kettle for his own cup of tea even if there are 12 of you there” colleague.

        1. Reba*

          I used to be peeved at unknown co-worker who always filled the kettle to (or actually over) the max.

          It didn’t seem to be used by that many people–it was always tepid and still mostly full when I got to it–and it takes much longer to boil 56 ounces of water than the 12 I need!

        2. lost academic*

          I do that. It takes a lot less time to boil less water and there’s no reason to waste the energy if I have no idea who might want water soon after me.

          1. epi*

            Yes, it is a waste of energy and your time to boil way more water than you need. It’s not like making a pot of coffee. If the water isn’t just off the boil, or the next person doesn’t realize that it is, they are going to heat that same water up all over again when they want tea.

            1. Bagpuss*

              Also, the tea isn’t as nice if the waters been boiled too often.Better to make it with fresh water.

      2. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        In my house, I have a one-cup coffee maker that puts out water between 180 and 190 Fahrenheit. (Yes, I measured. I’m kind of a nerd.) I’ve repurposed it for use solely for tea, since it’s the perfect temperature. It’s so convenient, actually faster than my electric teakettle. But you’d have to keep it at your desk if you wanted to do that, because I can’t imagine people not using it for coffee.

        1. Artemesia*

          I always got a small kettle I kept in my office; just be sure you have one with a safety shut off. They don’t all oddly.

    8. Ruth (UK)*

      I would do something similar to B… I would normally almost-fill my cup with cold water and use that to transport it to the kettle to top it up a bit and then continue it boiling. Because of the minimum fill point required to boil a kettle (I assume it’s an electric kettle) there’ll already be slightly more than is needed for a single cup, even if they’re only boiling for themselves. This will have the water ready (for the 2nd cup) quicker than taking the water then starting again with cold.

      B the way you’ve described it would not bother me but I could see it bothering some people.

      However, in practice this isn’t really an issue for me as I would so rarely boil for just me – I’d probably be making multiple drinks and would need a full kettle anyway. So I’d be more likely to wait then start again or something.

      Or, if I’m making only for myself, but know others are likely to very soon need water, I’m likely to boil a fuller kettle than I need so that it’ll boil quicker for the next person (still/already hot).

      Reading back my answer, I think it depends on too many things, like if the office is shared with multiple companies, or people I don’t know, or so on. I would usually try to impact the first-boiler as little as possible in terms of inconveniencing them but if they don’t come back soon after the kettle’s boiled, it makes me unable to proceed with my own tea-making unless I interrupt theirs…

      ps. if I leave a boiling kettle unattended, then I would not fault another person for taking the water while I was away, but would feel mildly irritated if they left it empty and didn’t put more on for my likely soon return.

    9. Phoenix Programmer*

      This happened to me except it was specialty coffee! I put the pot on, walked away while it brewed and came back a minute later to a mostly empty pot that was still brewing! The vultures had literally filled 20oz cold direct from the spout as it brewed while I was gone.

    10. General Ginger*

      B makes the most sense.
      The person who took your tea packet out of your cup is a jerk.

    11. Amber T*

      I don’t use the kettle in my office, but for those who do – no one actually uses the water that’s already in there, because they don’t know how long it’s been sitting there, so most in my office do D) dump the water, put fresh in (enough for 1.5 cups, just enough to leave the next person confused), wait, and leave a little bit left to mess up the next person.

    12. Sparkly Librarian*

      This question made me realize, JUST now, that I did B on Wednesday night at a friend’s home (with 15 people crowded into the living room for rehearsal) and left the stove on. I expect someone sitting closer to the kitchen than I amended the situation within ten minutes… but way to forget, me!

    13. Lulu*

      What kind of person turns on the kettle when there is only a cup’s worth of water left in it? I would never turn it on that low — I’d fill it to at least halfway and then turn it on. So I guess the best answer here is B, but the real answer is that the person who turned it on only thinking about their own tea needs, and wasn’t even there to get their hot water, was an inconsiderate person and either needs more tea, or doesn’t deserve their tea?

      1. Bagpuss*

        Why? It’s a waste of of energy to boil more than you need.
        I fill it up first thing in the morning when I know that lots of people will be coming in to make drinks in the next few minutes, and if it is being boiled when I go into the kitchen then I’ll either pour out the other person’s drink (usually in our office, they’ll have left their mug on the side by the kettle) then top up for myself, or, if they’ve not left their mug, I’d go with ‘wait a moment to see if they come back , then use the water and refill the kettle’ option.

  7. Kendra*

    I have my first all-day, out-of-town job interview at the end of the month, with a company I’d really like to work for! Any advice on how to prepare and make sure it goes well?

    I’m a senior in my last semester of college, and my major (computer science) is one where the main part of it is really common and easy to find some kind of job for but the emphasis I picked (graphics) is a little less common, so I wasn’t expecting to find a job related to graphics. I talked to Company at my college’s career fair, and it turns out the work they do lines up really well with the things I’ve studied and the direction I’d like to go with a career, and the company culture and the location all sound like they’d fit me well! I had an in-person interview with them on campus the day after the career fair, so this would be the second interview. I’ve never been to the area before, but they were nice enough to schedule the flights so that I could be there over the weekend and look around. I already know of a couple things I’d like to check out (local church that I would attend, gym, apartments, etc); is there anything else that I should investigate about a place that I’d want to move to?

    1. Elizabeth W.*

      Re moving, if it were me, I’d look at what there is to do in the city. Are there theaters? Cinemas? (No Alamo Drafthouse is a deal breaker for me, LOL.) You can look at this online before you go.

      I’d also look around a bit in the area where you’re going to be working. I know it would be the weekend, but what’s the traffic like? Are there public transport options? Places to eat nearby? If it’s way out in an industrial park, for example, that will affect your commute and your routine (do I have to pack a lunch every day, etc.).

    2. LKW*

      General cost of living. Grocery prices, movies, etc all get drastically more expensive the closer to major urban areas. A four pack of instant mac n’ cheese is $3.50 in Georgia and $8 in NYC.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Oooh, make a hypothetical grocery list of the stuff you actually eat, and see what a week’s worth of food would cost you there.

    3. Marthooh*

      Before you go, find out the cost of living for that area so you can factor that into salary negotiations.

      2. Stranger than fiction*

        Yep, there’s actually calculators online where you put your current city and salary and prospective city, and it spits out how much you’d need to make in prospective city.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Elizabeth gave you some really good ideas.

      I’d spend time in the ordinary grocery store, grab any free newspapers (especially the ones with “what’s going on around town” sections), and read bulletin boards in coffee shops and lunch spots.

      When you go to check out the church or the gym or whatever, be bold (even if you’re naturally shy) and just speak up … “I’m considering a move here, what’s your favorite secret about this city?” Ask anyone. You’ll start getting all kinds of interesting leads.

      1. Gregor*

        Hopefully most people would give useful insight, but I think the place the person is moving to can elicit different reactions (especially in ‘hot’ growth cities where population growth is making the cost of living increase drastically, like Seattle, Denver, etc.). You might get eye rolls there where they are thinking in their head ‘Great another transplant looking to move here.”

    5. From the High Tower on the Hill*

      I absolutely agree with everyone. Since I am assuming you are younger, if night life is important to you, you may want to check out local bars, breweries, clubs etc. Also, I know when I moved I didn’t take into account that it was a smaller city and didn’t have public transportation (uber, busses, etc.) and moved into an apartment that was miles from any night life so I could never really go out at night without excessive planning. Just something to keep in mind.

    6. Ferris*

      Most important factor in cost of living will be the housing costs (and related utilities). So, make sure to look for some apartment prices before you go, and also get a feel for if you have to pay for heating, etc. (especially bad in New England). Also look at the area you’d likely be able to afford to live in. (You may have to live really far away (traffic time) from your work in order to be able to afford a place.)

      Also, for CS, salaries can change a lot regionally. (Silicon Valley you can get a starting offer of over $100K, but it’s not necessarily a good wage to live on there.) So, make sure you do your homework about the going wages in that area.

    7. epi*

      If this is a city, look up the Walk Score for the areas you’d be considering moving to. It’s not perfect– for example it doesn’t always distinguish well between supermarkets and little corner stores when determining whether the area has good access to groceries– but I have found the total score gives a pretty accurate impression of areas of my city that I know well.

      Also, check out some apartment listings even for places you don’t plan to go. What kind of stuff do people looking to rent out an apartment consider a perk, and brag about being located near? I’m in Chicago so obviously apartment listings will say if they’re near the L. But you can find out about what bus lines are also considered especially worthwhile this way, or what the good grocery store is.

      There are two other resources that might interest you in choosing a neighborhood. One is a recent article about the top US ZIP codes with large millennial populations. For Chicago, only pretty established neighborhoods show up in that data, not the newer neighborhoods people are moving to right now (and which might still be cheaper), but it may give you a sense of what neighborhoods are going to feel right for you, and possibly in your price range, as a young person. The other is called Mapnificent. For many cities, it will show you what areas you can reach via public transit in a given amount of time. If you plan to commute via public transit, it will help you visualize all the areas of the city you can consider living, depending how long of a commute you’re willing to accept.

      Good luck on your interview!

      1. epi*

        Oh, I forgot to specify– that article is the link in my username above. The other resources I mentioned by name should come right up in a Google search.

    8. Zen Cohen*

      Tips for the all-day interview itself: don’t forget to hydrate and fuel yourself that day. You’ll be talking a lot and you’ll be nervous, so your mouth will be dry. The perceived awkwardness of excusing yourself to go to the restroom is not worth ending up with a dehydration headache by mid-afternoon. And if you normally snack throughout the day, don’t skip those! Just eat something that won’t make a lot of crumbs or get stuck in your teeth. You will not be your best slef if you’re hangry.

    10. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Two suggestions to cover different aspects of your interview trip:
      1. For the company, be sure to learn about the culture. You’ve done a great job learning about the job and ithe skill sets you will need. Now, notice what people are wearing, how their workspaces are set up, and if possible, how they interact. You will be spending 40+ hours a week with your co-workers. Try to learn if you will be looking forward to being with these people or not.
      2. For the city, see if you can find a contact or two who lives there. Maybe a friend of a friend. Maybe an alum of your school (if they have a local alumni organization, you can contact them). Websites and visiting a city are helpful, but I have found nothing beats actually speaking with residents.

    11. Easily Amused*

      Definitely ask about how many hours everyone works per week on average. I was a VFX Artist and we worked 60-80 hours a week regularly. I knew this going into it so I chose a duplex within walking distance of the office in LA even though it was a little more expensive than an apt further away. (I had dogs so I knew I’d need to come home mid-day every day). The people who wrote the tools may have had more normal schedules, I’m not sure. If you’re going into gaming, you’ll definitely be subject to overtime at some point so it’s important to know if it’s just stretches of OT at the end of a project or if OT is the lifestyle.

      I’m sorry this doesn’t really answer your questions about interviewing but I wanted to call it out because I’m not sure how aware people are that working in computer graphics can end up being more of a lifestyle than a job. It can be a lot of fun -extremely talented co-workers, good money, schwag, creative work, lots of laughing, there’s often a celebration of some milestone happening and it’s exciting to see your hard work out there for the public to enjoy in the end but it can also be tough when hours are consistently long. Good Luck in your interviews!

      1. Kendra*

        That is actually super helpful, thanks! Part of the reason I wasn’t expecting to find a graphics job is because I knew how nuts the film/gaming industries were and wanted to avoid that. This job/company is more of the tool-writing side and the company makes consumer design software rather than games so hopefully there shouldn’t be too much overtime craziness, but I’ll definitely ask about average work hours!

  8. anonypissed*

    Any advice on questions to ask when interviewing for a remote position? Does the size of the company have an effect? (startup, mid-size, big corp, etc).

    I’m considering switching to finding a fully remote job. As I’ve complained about in recent posts, the culture at most of the tech companies in my area is pretty sexist, so this is a way of expanding my possibilities without having to move.

    Being fully remote would be new to me – previous jobs have only allowed me to work from home one day a week, so I’m sure the dynamics are very different. Usually when I interview I’m paying attention to the office and the culture (in addition to the work) I’m only looking at remote options for projects that I’m really excited about, since the job would more about the work than the people.

    1. LKW*

      I would ask about general communication styles of the team. Are they water-cooler conversationalists, stop by and chatters or IM pingers? The biggest challenge with remote working is that you never have the side convos that you get in an office. Almost everything starts with email/IM or a tangent on a teleconference.

      1. Ferris*

        The other thing to ask about is what typical group meetings are like. If you’re the only one remote, and everybody else is in a conference room, writing on a whiteboard, and not paying attention to the phone, it can be pretty miserable.

    2. ToodieCat*

      Good luck on your search! I do want to add a note of caution, though. I work in tech. Forty percent of the time I telecommute, but lately my new boss has let me telecommute for longer stretches so I can join my husband on the other side of the state.

      I don’t know what form the sexism you’ve seen is taking. If it’s harassment type things, yeah, telecommuting might help because it takes you out of that atmosphere. But if it’s some of the more nuanced things (like not getting heard), then I think telecommuting makes the sexism even worse (because somehow it’s even easier to ignore people who aren’t in the office).

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        Exactly this. My office is a mix of butts in seats and remote positions. I get cut out of a lot of things for the simple possession of my uterus (your cramps are acting up; you don’t know what you’re doing) and “oh you weren’t on that call?”/ forgetting to include in emails/teleconferences. So it’s very dependent on what sort of harassment you’re wanting to avoid.

      2. A person*

        This!
        Me: *idea* in conference call or email chain
        Others: (conversation moves on)
        Tech bro: *repeats what I said two minutes ago*
        Others: that’s a great idea!

        Telecommuting will never solve that problem, but it might help in other ways.

        1. Easily Amused*

          I’m dealing with this right now and I’m in the office right in front of people. It’s so frustrating.

    3. Doug Judy*

      I’m in the final rounds of interviews for a remote position. They are newish company with about 100 employees. Pretty much everyone works from home 90% of the time so they have established practices on communication and on-boarding new employees so you don’t feel so isolated. They have team video calls a few times a week, an assigned mentor, weekly one-on-one’s with the manager, and a weekly whole company conference call. Once a year they have a two day onsite meeting/event too. In my interviews I asked a lot of questions about the challenges of working remote and they were honest that there is usually an adjustment period and gave some tips of what they do to limit things like isolation and making sure you are organized and hitting your objectives. This particular company has a lot of touch points during the week to help everyone still feel connected. Team calls, one-on-ones, and entire organization calls happen every week, with one to two times a year with a two day onsite meeting. So make sure to ask how they on-board new employees, what they provide or reimburse for (computer, phone,etc.), and if there are any guidelines on what time you work. Some jobs might have core hours while others are just project based where what time you are working is up to you.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Ack, sorry for the double information. I typed it up, it disappeared, rewrote it and it posted both replies.

    4. Rose Tyler*

      Working remotely won’t be a silver bullet to a toxic culture – I’d ask the same questions you usually do to suss out the company’s ‘personality’.

    5. Aunt Vixen*

      Friend,

      Out of curiosity, what kind of tech work do you do? I may know of an opportunity if you’re interested in hearing about it. I’ll put my email address on this comment in the hope that Alison can retrieve it and share it with you if you’re interested.

    6. Banana Pancakes*

      How much of their employee base WFH can make a big difference in how your work is viewed and how you’re managed, i.e. in workplaces where only a few people WFH infrequently, you might run into people acting like WFH is 80% goofing off on company time. You might be micromanaged as a result or just poorly managed because they haven’t figured out how to handle people who WFH.

      I work remotely for a start-up and they’re still working out a lot of software kinks and figuring out their pay structure. It works for me right now, but they just switched us from hourly pay to commission only with very little notice and you can imagine how alarming that would be for a lot of people. I like my company, but start-ups can be really unpredictable and I’d make sure you know what you’re walking into.

    7. WFH Mom*

      Full time remote employee here. Also, at OldJob, I worked with a mix of in-office and full time remotes. A lot depends on how many telecommuters you will work with. Currently, the majority of my peers also telecommute from all over the world. That makes a difference in the company culture. I also work in tech and have faced my fair share of sexism. Telecommuting doesn’t solve the problem; company culture does. But I understand if having the option to work with peers from a less conservative environment makes a difference. It has for me.

      Some advice for the world of remote work:
      – Figuring out company culture in the interview process – ask lots of questions. What are the expectations, what tools are used to communicate, how do remote employees get involved and stay in the loop?
      – Communication must be more deliberate. If you’re an introvert, you’ll need to put yourself out there more than you’d like to get what you need. Schedule meetings with your peers. If the culture is full of remote employees, you can take cues from peers how to be successful.
      – Learn the expectations early. Is this a concrete business hours type schedule, or flexible? And find out what that means for the hiring manager. They may say it’s flexible, but be sure you understand what that means to them.
      – What’s the day to day like? Will you need a quiet space for conference calls, and can you accommodate that in your home? What’s your internet connection & cell service like at home? What resources will the company provide? Laptop, monitor, cell phone? Do they reimburse for those things, or internet/cell service? Is that important to you?
      – PTO expectations? If you need to cut out for a Dr’s appointment for a few hours, what’s the expectation? You may be able to work from various locations if, for example, you wanted to visit family for the holidays but can’t take the time off.

      Good luck to you. Working remotely has definitely opened up job prospects for me in my mid-size city.

  9. Namast'ay in Bed*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for standing desk rocker boards? I’d like to have one to stand on while my desk is in standing position to mix things up and also engage my body a little bit more, I’ve also heard they can also be good to keep your feet on while you’re sitting at your desk. I’m not looking to break the bank – I’ve seen some that go for hundreds of dollars, which seems nuts, I’m looking more in the $50 range?
    Thanks!

    2. Lillie Lane*

      I just got one on Amazon (“Yogree”), one of the many versions of round wooden balance boards on the site. It was about $25. Though I think it’s meant for physical therapy, I do like it for my standing desk. The only issue is that I would prefer a board that is a little bit wider. I read in an article that for standing desks it is preferable to have a wide board, and I would agree.

        1. Lillie Lane*

          If you get fidgety while standing (that’s why I got mine), you will probably like a board a lot. You can either balance without touching the desk (more challenging but also more satisfying from an exercise/core standpoint) or lightly stabilize against the desk. I have found it to make me feel a little better than just standing.

          1. Namast'ay in Bed*

            I’ve been finding I use my standing desk less than I should/want to, and I’m thinking it’s because it’s less satisfying than sitting at my desk and being able to jostle my leg, move my feet around, etc. I’m hoping that a board would liven things up a bit while standing, it sounds like it might do the trick!

    3. General Ginger*

      I’m actually looking for something like that right now, too. I usually look at Wirecutter for “the best of” product reviews, and they usually have an “affordable best of”. Link for their standing desk mats/boards reviews to follow in next comment.

    4. CTAtty*

      I have the Gaiam standing desk balance board. I think it was I’m the $60-$70 range? It’s held up well and is not so wobbly that I feel like I’m going to fall.

  10. Defending Turf?*

    I need to defend my scope of work (programmatic) from an ED who has a philosophy that “every one should pitch in all the time.” I won’t be able to get my stuff done if I’m helping random newbies all day with stupid stuff (printer problems, never done a mail merge, needs help finding folders etc). ED is clearly going to hold it against me if I say I can’t/won’t help. We have a high turnover in the junior positions, so there is always somebody knew and needing help with stupid stuff; it’s not like I could do one big training and be done with it. Any suggestions? I’m normally a people pleaser so this is hard for me.

    1. Kendra*

      Could you plan with your ED to schedule some small portion of your day as “pitch-in time” and the rest of it as uninterruptable programming time? That way you’re not outright refusing to help, but you would still have time to focus and do your actual job descriptiong.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Alternately, would you be able to volunteer to create documentation for the basic recurring stuff? Then your pitching in could be, “oh, here’s the notes on printer problems”, and it would hopefully interrupt you less.

      1. Le’Veon Bell is right*

        Yeah, I think writing out a lot of the common ones is a good idea. The printer should have a troubleshooting guide, there should be a doc for FAQs on systems used in the office, etc. Also, for stuff like mail merge, there are a million tutorials online! Maybe you can slowly change the culture to “Google first, ask Defending Turf if you still can’t make it work.”

    3. Qwerty*

      How will the junior people get better if no one helps them? The tone of your question is a bit condescending towards new staff. The idea behind having everyone pitch in is to prevent one person from getting stuck with all of the work. If people aren’t willing or allowed to ask you questions about regular stuff, will junior programmers feel comfortable asking questions about programming? Or will they go on to make a huge mistake because their previous inquiries were deemed “stupid”?

      What about looking for more efficient and collaborative ways of getting them the information they need? I’ve trained a lot of new hires, here are a couple things that helped the most:

      1) Document the tasks that new people tend to have trouble with and put it on the team or company wiki. It provides a first line of defense (either they look it up themselves or you *kindly* direct them towards it when asked). Revise it during the first few rounds of new hires, and after that have the person using it fill in whatever steps or details they wish had been included.

      2) Have some form of group chat channel where people can ask about these things. Whenever I’ve done this, the newish-hires tend to take on the questions of the brand-new-hires, because they were recently there and it is fresh in their memory.

      1. OP*

        My dream would definitely be that the new people help each other or problem solve together. I take your point on the condensation – I appreciate that it’s not really their fault, I just … can’t allow their problems to become my problems.

        1. Qwerty*

          Thought of one more thing – you mentioned the ED’s vision is “everyone pitches in” – does that mean there’s other people who can also answer these questions? If so and if you’re able to do the chat channel, we’ve had success with setting up a rotation for who is primarily responsible to paying attention to the chats for the day. So maybe you help with questions in the morning and Jane handles them in the afternoon. Or you rotate it each day, so you know that Tuesdays are your turn and you’ll have more interruptions, but at least the rest of the days you are free. The newbies don’t need to know the schedule – they keep sending their questions to one place – but as more people gain knowledge, it’ll ease the burden. (Plus, it fits the description of what your ED wants, so it makes you look more collaborative while actually freeing you up. Maybe he’ll even take a turn!)

          If you have trouble getting the newbies to collaborate, you can sometimes help with that with some redirection. Rob sends in a question about mail merges? Here’s a link to the wiki and Sansa just learned how to do that, she can help! The key is to sound cheery, like of course they would want to help each other.

      2. Phoenix Programmer*

        Clearly you have never been the go to tech person in an office when it’s not your job. It eats up your life and then no one is happy. Your boss is mad that you are behind on programming and the office folks are mad you weren’t available when their phone froze. Being able to provide the guidance op is talking about should come from a help desk person or the one responsible for training the new staff. It sounds like new staff are being sent to op for “computer stuff” and really that should be covered by whoever is training them.

        Finally for those who have never been in this unofficial thankless role please understand that documentation is worthless. Most don’t bother to read “how to unlock your account” before coming to you. When you send the the instructions these same people pout “It will only take a minute! Why won’t you help me?” Then the next time they lock themselves out they are back at your door interrupting your implementation meeting with clients because they cant get into their email.

        “Stupid tasks” aren’t a great term but the reality is hierachy exists. Most people don’t bring a broom to the CEO when they notice a muddy hall but for some reason people don’t seem to get that there is scope to tech work and asking a programmer who you pay $31 an hour to drop their, usually money making or saving, project to help Steve print his account list is just as non sensical as asking the CEO to sweep.

        2. Stranger than fiction*

          I’m with you here. I’ve created all kinds of help guides here and NOBODY remembers to look at them before asking me the same thing iver and over with no recollection of ever having asked before! (And I’m not even talking about new people. I’m talking about people that have been around for years). We even choose topics from the archives and meet with them once a month and they still don’t remember anything.

        3. Qwerty*

          I’ve actually spent several years as the unofficial go-to person. That’s how I learned to train people to use and update the documentation and to be willing to share their knowledge once they’ve been helped.

          Part of the reason one person gets stuck as the go-to role is because other people aren’t helping out. A good portion of the people who were willing to walk to my desk at the other end of the building to ask me questions instead of turning to the very knowledgeable people on their team was because those teammates reacted gruffly and made them feel stupid for having questions.

          The theory behind the ED’s belief that “everyone should pitch in” is to prevent this scenario that you’re talking about, where one person gets stuck with all of the questions, all of the time.

    4. LKW*

      Perhaps take a proactive approach to get the other newbies to do the bulk of the work for you.
      Create a list of the FAQs that you don’t want to deal with. Give em to a not-as-new newbie to create a handbook. For those issues that need support in between now and handbook development – Make a Template: Tell any newbie that comes for help: Newbie “We need to make instructions. I’m going to walk you through this once. Then you write everything I tell you down and put it into this template. Use this template and refine it so that you think it will help the next person.” Tell your ED this is your plan.

      Also -it’s ok to say “What did you try so far? Did you try xyz? Do that and then come back to me if you still have trouble.” I will subtly call out people for not doing basic research – “LKW – I don’t know what Teapotism means.” LKW: Hmmm, well I just popped it into Google and this is what it says.” Then they know – google before coming to me.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Personally, I would take the approach that you’re happy to help, but then you won’t meet your deadlines, etc and you would like to discuss with the ED the new deadlines/goals so you can accommodate the “pitching in”. In other words, throw the consequences squarely in her lap.

      1. OP*

        Yeah, this is where I wish I could push back. Unfortunately, I have a boss who gets it, and a grandboss (this ExDir) who doesn’t. Let’s say I’m in charge of something important but vague, like Compliance; I have to get certain reports filed, respond to fires all day, etc. Grandboss doesn’t really know/care what that entails and I don’t think really appreciates that we as an org are doomed if we flunk a compliance check because I was helping an intern load new toner into the printer. We would literally lose millions of dollars that would have gone to important work.

        Unfortunately my boss can’t really shield me if ExDir starts in. She has the same problems herself TBH.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Honestly, if the ED doesn’t get it, then they shouldn’t be at the that level. Which you know. Unless there’s someone else in the org who does get it and has power over the ED?
          Myself, I’d probably be job searching.

        2. Stan Lee (not the famous one)*

          “Grandboss [doesn’t really appreciate] that we as an org are doomed if we flunk a compliance check because I was helping an intern load new toner into the printer. We would literally lose millions of dollars that would have gone to important work.”

          This may not be a nice thing to say, but maybe that’s what has to happen for Grandboss to appreciate it.

    6. Troutwaxer*

      Tell the junior programmers to talk to the duck. (For non technical people, this means “talk about the problem to anything, even a toy duck, because once you start talking about the problem, you’ll probably figure out the solution on your own.” It doesn’t mean “talk to the hand.”)

      Also, the suggestions about the wiki are good. Every time you help someone, the “price” for the help is that they document what you told them in the wiki.

      1. TootsNYC*

        My mother used to say, “What would you do if I wasn’t here?”

        And she used to say, “Pretend it’s a cookie, and you get to eat it if you can figure out how.”

        But absolutely you can say, “What have you done to answer your own question?” And even, “Is there another place you can go to find the answer to your question?”

        I’d be wanting to negotiate for that right. And also I’d be pointing out: the things people figure out for themselves are the ones they remember. So it’s important to teach people to be more resourceful and resilient. And you do that by not doing things for them that they can do themselves. (It’s actually not that respectful to do so.) Mention “helicopter parents” while you’re at it.

  11. Labradoodle Daddy*

    I just learned that I, along with a few other team members, will be getting a bonus this month. Yay! Problem is, two of my coworkers who have been doing just as much training (and doing more overtime than me, I’m the only one of the group that really can’t take overtime bc of health concerns) WON’T be getting this bonus. The company I work for is so, so crappy. Is there anything I can do or say to my bosses about this?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I wouldn’t. There is probably a reason that you aren’t privy to. Just accept your bonus with grace and don’t mention it to anyone else.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        But there can’t be a reason– we’ve been doing the *exact* same work. The training they’re doing is *exactly* the same as mine. They’ve also been putting MORE time in than I have, which makes this feel like a total slap in the face.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Just because you’re doing the same work doesn’t mean there isn’t something going on behind the scenes that you aren’t aware of.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            There isn’t, that’s what makes this so confusing. The company I work for sadly has a looooong history of shadiness.

            1. designbot*

              well, would your view change if it turned out that they make more than you as far as salary, and this bonus would just bring your compensation more in line with theirs? Just an example of how there could be something not readily visible that could change the perspective on this.

          2. Labradoodle Daddy*

            Hell, one of the girls is better at this than I am! It can’t be their performance, and external anchors (I’d argue) have a far harder job because they aren’t at base camp and don’t have a team of coworkers they can call on if they need an extra set of hands. If anything, the external bonuses should be HIGHER. Unfortunately, our new manager has put very little effort into understanding the basics of our job.

        2. Sloan Kittering*

          I just feel like there can always be things behind the scenes you’re not aware of. Could they have terrible reviews and they’re on a PIP? Could they have botched something a few months back that they’re still recovering from? Gotten entangled with unnecessary drama with another coworker? If you like and trust your boss you could gently ask them about it with the rationale that you’re trying to understand how the reward system is structured, but it’s possible your coworker is not as aggrieved as you are about this.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            One of the anchors is the single best team member, so it can’t be her performance. I’d be pretty surprised if the other external girl was having issues– we’re on a team, so we notice when someone is falling behind or doing poorly. It would take way too long to explain but we would notice based on how our job is structured. I also don’t like or trust my manager, so there’s that.

            1. Qwerty*

              If I understand this correctly, both of the teammates not receiving bonuses are women? Are there any women who are receiving bonuses? Or is this all the people at your location are getting bonuses but the two external people are not?

          2. Labradoodle Daddy*

            And yeah, at least one of the girls is incredibly pissed off (particularly because she’s been working 7:00-6:00 shifts that I haven’t been able to do).

              1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                Ugh, sorry. This is a habit I’m still trying to break (I’m a 27 year old woman). Apologies!

      2. Labradoodle Daddy*

        One of the team members has also been here longer than I have *and* been a trainer for far longer than I have. It just doesn’t make sense.

    2. Labradoodle Daddy*

      I also learned that they are planning to pay external team members a lower salary for doing the exact same job. A new floater trainee would be earning more than a year-long external anchor team member (we’re in NYC and have several offices in a 3 block radius).

      1. It's the little things*

        I agree with Detective Amy, there could be something you aren’t privy to affecting their decision, you say there isn’t but you don’t know what you don’t know. On the pay front, are the externals based in lower cost of living areas? Just thinking that might have something to do with it given that home office is NYC with a very high cost of living.

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          All three offices are within two blocks of one another in NYC. The team members all live in outer boroughs.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I think the stress we’re all feeling is that this is our company’s MO— shadiness and unevenness.

      2. Labradoodle Daddy*

        There’s also the uncomfortable fact that the white girls are the ones getting bonuses and the WOC are the ones getting screwed. And there isn’t a conceivable reason why.

        1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

          Don’t get me wrong! It’s shady AF. But I don’t think you can push back on this without risk to your own job. They’re clearly the kind of people who are going to bite your head off if you even suggest they’re being unfair or (whisper it) racist, because HOW DARE YOU, and yeah.

          I would do all you can to talk up your un-bonused colleagues’ accomplishments and make it really, really hard to justify not giving them raises in the future, but confrontation feels sharky.

        2. Qwerty*

          If your management is shady, I’m not sure what you can say at the company that would help. It really depends on how much you trust your HR department. I’d recommend documenting what’s been happening and any other instances you’ve seen where WOC are being treated differently in case you or these women decide to report the company.

          It’s also worth letting these women know that you support them and think they deserve more. (Preferably have this conversation outside company channels). Ask what you can do for them. Maybe they just want a sympathetic ear, maybe they want you as witness if they go to HR/a government agency/sue for discrimination.

        3. Nita*

          Ah. Well, in that case… They may have a winnable lawsuit. I’ve seen cases of discrimination that would be very hard to prove because the victim wasn’t part of the usual protected classes. This sounds easier to prove. I hope they sue, and win. If they’re interested, I can look up the name of a NYC lawyer I consulted with a few years ago.

    4. CatCat*

      I don’t think there’s anything you can say to your bosses. You can let your coworkers know about the bonuses (if they don’t already). You can also compare with your coworkers the work you do and the quality of the output. This will give them info to decide on what *they* want to do next whether it’s go to the bosses, escalate in some other way, or look for other work.

    5. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Wait, is there a gender/race difference between people who got bonuses and people who didn’t? I’m gleaning from your responses that the two people who didn’t get bonuses were women, but it now sounds like they’re not the only women on the team, but they are the only women of color?

      If that’s the case and you think it’s discrimination based, Allison has some good language for bringing it up to HR, I’m paraphrasing from what I remember so definitely look it up, but it was definitely something like “I’m afraid that externally it’s going to look like we are practicing discriminatory behavior…”

      Maybe it’s not that but either way dang that sucks.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yeah, if that is the situation, then I’d say bringing it up to HR might be the way to go.

        However, it sounds like these women are aware of the situation? If that’s the case, I would ask them what, if anything, they would like you to do. Don’t make the decision for them.

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          My company’s HR already did a full investigation of the racial bias accusation. A bunch of people were fired. They’re still doing it.

          1. Namast'ay in Bed*

            Well if they already did a full investigation that means (hopefully!) they’re interested in fixing the problem, so “hey this seems like a further example of what we’re trying to fix” seems like a good thing to bring up.

    6. Essess*

      There is also a question of whether they’ve received bonuses more recently than you have, or higher than you have in the past. I’ve worked at places that could only give a limited number so they rotated them around to try to cover all the people that deserved bonuses, but they could only do a few people each bonus round. I’ve also worked places where they gave higher bonuses to the people that were lower on the salary range for the position. You mention that there is new management so they might be looking at historical pay/bonuses to determine who should get them this time.
      I also want to mention that I agree with another commenter that that there might be reasons you don’t know. You responded that there weren’t reasons you didn’t know. But that’s the point… you wouldn’t know that there are reasons that you don’t know. :-D

        1. Horrified*

          You said you “learned” that you would be getting bonuses. Is this office gossip or was it through official channels?
          Is there a remote chance that this is a tempest in a teacup and that either everybody (or nobody) will be getting bonuses??

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            The facilities manager emailed it to our team inbox (by mistake, but it’s hard to feel bad when they put no effort into understanding our jobs and how they work).

    7. Trying to be CJ Cregg*

      I’m just here to ask if you sign cars??? (seeing if your name is the reference i think it is lol)

  12. Anonymous404*

    I received a verbal job offer on Tuesday!! Thank you to Ask a manager and everyone who has replied to my comments here, I really appreciate it. For the offer, I emailed them last night and mentioned that I hadn’t received an official offer and would like to look it over before I give notice on Monday. Should I wait to give notice if I still don’t have it by Monday? I want to get out of my current job ASAP, but I don’t want to jump the gun. Am I right in trusting my instincts to wait to give notice?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I would wait for something in writing, and a start date, before I gave any notice. Feels safer to me.

      1. Tara S.*

        Absolutely, wait until you have the paper in hand (so to speak). It should also confirm your start date.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      You are right. Besides, you don’t know if the offer is contingent upon something like a clean driving record, or clear background check, or good references, etc. I’d wait. If you haven’t heard yet (it’s noon in the eastern US), call instead and explain your concerns. Any good employer will totally understand.

    3. halmsh*

      Yeah definitely *definitely* wait – you don’t know if the offer may have parts that weren’t otherwise discussed that you need to go back on, etc.

    4. Ferris*

      Never, ever assume you have an offer until it is in writing in front of you and has all the details, including a start date. There are too many things that could happen that cancel your position (especially, including needing to get all the bureaucracy to sign off on the offer). Things could happen once you have a written offer as well, but they are less likely, and you have some leverage with that in hand.

    5. Bea*

      Wait until you have a start date! Then you can give notice. I’ve only started receiving written offers so I’m less dependent on them but a start date is critical. Then you don’t give notice Monday and find out they don’t have you start until say Nov 1st.

    6. Overeducated*

      YES. WAIT. My verbal and written offers for my current job were four months apart. My spouse’s verbal and written offers for the job he starts next month were about six weeks apart.

    7. OldJules*

      I would not resign until I pass all the background check and drug screen. I’m as vanilla as it comes but I’m always extra careful about it.

    8. Lis*

      Yes you are right to wait. I once interviewed and accepted a job offer to then be told corporate eliminated the position, sorry. I had not resigned my previous position so no one was the wiser. A few months later they came back to me saying the position had been reauthorized amd they really wanted me but then the new HR person was pushing me to give notice before i had the written offer and I was all LOL, given what happened before it’s a hard no before I have a commitment your end.

    9. Sarah G*

      Congrats! As to your question, I’ve been hired many times (including gov’t jobs) without receiving a written offer — not every employer does them. Did they explicitly tell you to expect a written offer? If so, then it makes sense to wait.
      If not, then just send an email to your contact there (HR of hiring manager) with the agreed-upon details (salary, start date, benefits package, and any other pertinent details) asking to confirm. That’s what I’ve typically done, and then once they respond, you know that you are in agreement about the important details, and have it in writing. A written offer isn’t legally binding anyway, so an email exchange serves the same purpose. Alison has recommended this method here regularly.
      Good luck with the new job!

  13. Environmental Compliance*

    I just want to share that I was really bothered that I (as the environmental compliance person) had to raise up the issue of LOTO procedures not being followed, and whether or not the safety compliance person will be retraining those individuals following an incident that had the potential to result in a multi-fatality OSHA investigation and a high priority violation from EPA. The safety person was in the same meeting when this was brought up, and I only brought it up at the end of the meeting after the organizer asked if there were any other questions/concerns, and Safety Dude just shrugged. The situation as a whole left a bad taste in my mouth, and I have brought it up to the EHS guy that oversees both of us, but I’m just feeling squicky about it.

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        My observation is that there’s some people charged with compliance-related tasks who think being lax and unobtrusive is a shortcut to the friendly and mutually trustworthy relationship you need to have with the people who need to comply stuff, and they need to find another line of work.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I cannot agree more with the above statement. And it really, really bothers me that the HS part of my EHS department is like this. The E should not be raising these concerns about LOTO. It makes me incredibly squicky to sit through a meeting and have the safety guy brush off the potential for a frickin’ explosion because no one followed LOTO. Augh!

        2. Quill*

          Yeah… don’t terrorize people over everything but it is not your job to be the “cool dad” in this situation.

          1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

            Precisely. I need people to like me, trust me, and view me as a person who can help them get their job done without running into any regulatory brick walls, but the cool dad is always kind of annoying and creepy, right?

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Creepy Trying Too Hard To Be Cool Dad is a description that fits this guy very well. In so many ways.

          2. Decima Dewey*

            Now I’m thinking about the John Travolta character in “Broken Arrow” saying through gritted teeth “Do you *mind* not shooting at the thermonuclear warhead?”

        3. Ama*

          Yeah, a dear friend of mine does OSHA compliance for an international firm that is constantly buying new plants in the region she’s in charge of — every time they take one over, she has to do a considerable amount of retraining, with much resistance from the staff who were used to safety officers who never made them do anything they didn’t want to.

    2. KR*

      Sounds like this guy is flli into the trap of complacency, which as you must know is one of the biggest causes of workplace injuries. “Oh we don’t need to talk about this, everyone knows it, it’s how it’s always done,ect ect”

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        I suspect it’s more like “Oh, they actually know better, they just messed up this one time, and I won’t make waves or risk making anybody mad at me by calling them out on it, I’ll just let it ride…”

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          He’s very nonconfrontational, but I also don’t think he thinks about what’s going on.

          1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

            I am struggling to understand why he is in the role he is in. I would think that being the safety guy would entail a willingness to be assertive and analytical about things that could, y’know, explode.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              I honestly am not quite sure. I kinda think at the prior place he was at complacency must have been the name of the game, and I can only assume it was a less explode-risky environment.

          2. Nita*

            So maybe give him one more chance. Maybe the very end of the meeting was not the best time to bring up a big thing like that. What if you have a one-on-one conversation with him, and give him a very graphic breakdown of what could have happened, and what can happen if this sort of safety lapse takes place again. Might snap him into thinking less about “I might hurt my buddy’s feelings” and more about “my buddy and a bunch of others might die if I don’t make sure they remember that safety procedure.”

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      If LOTO isn’t followed, an incident is inevitable. You’re totally in the right here to be upset about it. I personally would say something to the workers that didn’t follow LOTO directly. If I got any push back at all from them, I would say something to their manager. Safety is everyone’s responsibility.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Happily enough (?), their supervisor is furious (in a good way, not a yell-y way) and told them in no uncertain terms why LOTO exists, and how it is indeed their responsibility to follow it, and that it will. not. happen. again. All the leads forwarded my strongly worded email to their employees along with their strongly worded email of while EC can’t directly fire you…. *they can*.

        We work at a flammable chemical manufacturing facility. Things go BOOM and the whole plant is gone, along with all the customers filling their tanker trucks, and about 100 employees.

        2. Bea*

          Thank God it’s just one flippant dude and the ones above him seem to care.

          I’ll gun for someone’s job if they want to shrug at LOTO not being followed.

    4. Not Really a Waitress*

      I hope you dont have my old safety mgr. His policy was as long as we gave visitors safety training before they left (be it a day or a week) we are covered. Yeah… unless they just got hurt….

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, our visitor safety training (this includes contractors doing work) is a one page checklist of work types. Literally. Just read the checklist, wait for them to nod, and move on.

        I had to go through safety trainings ad nauseum as a state inspector, and the vast majority of them made us watch a 15-20 minute video that actually included information, not just a checklist of what kind of work you’re doing.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Our EHS main guy actually swore on the phone during our conversation because he was that mad at the situation, and then said if someone has to lose their job to understand the seriousness of the situation, then that’s what’s going to happen.

        Not that I want someone to lose the stability and income of a job……but safety isn’t something you can screw around with. Period.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          If they get fired, they at least go home for the day. If they fuck up LOTO bad enough, they don’t.

    6. Construction Safety*

      The way all companies I’ve been with is that no one rally reports to the safety guy (unless it was the safety guy’s own people who messed up the LOTO). They report to their supervisors, and on up the chain. The safety guy should do the investigation, write the report, come up causal factors and root cause(s), and make recommendations.

      FWIW, I did an investigation on an incident several years ago & recommended that an individual be terminated for his part in the incident. Mgmt. gave him the ole “stern talking to”. About 6 months later & 3 months after I left, he rolled a scaffold down an outside stairway in Midtown Atlanta and made the evening news with helicopter coverage & everything. OSHA citations followed.

    7. 99 lead balloons*

      I know some forensic engineers and fire investigators -not following LOTO is not a “meh, whatevs man, it’s all good” thing AT ALL. Some gruesome sh*t happens when people skip LOTO. So yeah, you’re totally justified to feel squicky and would be justified to raise some heck about it.

  14. Lirael*

    This is part vent, part wondering if I should say anything to the facilities manager at work about cockroaches.

    So on Monday, I went to the restroom at work, sat down on the toilet without looking under the seat, and there was an enormous cockroach hiding under there, which I found out as I was finishing my business and I looked down and saw it starting to crawl onto my leg. I don’t know if it rises to the level of a phobia, but I am very afraid of bugs, so I screamed and jumped up. I got myself under control enough that I was decent again before I left the stall, but I was really upset and a little incoherent, and there was someone in the stall next to me who asked me if I was all right, which was embarassing.

    I called the facilities number posted in the restroom to report the roach, and I assume they came and killed it, but should I do any other follow up? I’m really unsettled about it still – less so now that a few days have gone by, but Monday and Tuesday, I had trouble psyching myself up to go into any restroom at all, and I’m still checking under the toilet seat for bugs. I’d like to know that they’ve got some sort of extermination plan because I have seen dead cockroaches in the stairwells before (infrequently), but I don’t want to come across as weirdly fixated. Other context, I work for a fairly large company at headquarters, so it’s a three building campus with somewhere around 2000 people, and I don’t know the facilities manager at all.

    1. Audiophile*

      That’s gross.

      I hope they took care of it. We’re currently experiencing an issue in our building, which facilities is staying on top of.

    2. Kendra*

      I think it wouldn’t seem oddly fixated if you called the facilities number again to ask if there’s a cockroach extermination plan, especially if they don’t track exactly who is calling and when.

    3. Elizabeth W.*

      You can if you want to, but if you already made a report, they’ve probably already called the exterminator.

      Also, bleah.

    4. KR*

      I saw one live roach in our office the other week and now I’m getting the whole place sprayed down got roaches. You are not overreacting. I’m still uneasy in our bathroom a week later.

    5. Notthemomma*

      Email the facilities manager and cc your manager in a polite way saying, “after I encountered a cockroach last week, I’ve been hesitant to use the facilities. Can you confirm for me that the exterminators we’re here and are on a pest control schedule so I can focus on work and not creepy crawlers? Thanks!”
      I had a similar, only the pink slime mold in the ice machine and it got cleaned and put on a maintenance plan, because, well, it was gross.

    6. Quill*

      1) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAh!

      2) They need/want to know about the roaches. Tell them. Few details beyond “discovered live, active roach in toilet.”

    7. Lissa*

      Don’t be embarrassed! I’m not particularly scared of bugs and would have absolutely screamed and jumped if that had happened to me. I think most people would in that situation. I hope they got some good exterminators in there.

    8. Lexi Kate*

      You can email them, but sadly with this being an office building they are most likely always fighting bugs and rodents. They most likely came and sprayed so you should be ok, maybe check around the seat and try not to be the one to turn the lights on in the morning.

    9. Lirael*

      Thanks everyone! I think I will just send an email to see. I would hope they’ve already got exterminators scheduled regularly, but I’d feel better to know for sure.

  15. Penelope*

    Has anyone ever calculated how much it costs to hire a new employee? Assuming a medium sized organisation with a dedicated HR department using the regular channels (online applications etc.)

    1. Seriously?*

      I don’t imagine that there is a standard answer to that. It will depend on how many people apply, do you pay for interview travel, if so how many are out of town and how many of the applicants are actually good (if you have a lot of applicants that aren’t qualified it is a longer process).

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      For an individual contributor with experience and in-demand skills, my company doesn’t bat an eye at paying a 30% head-hunter’s fee, relocation, and travel for the interview.

      For an entry level person, they’re lucky to get lunch at the local diner.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        It’s not just those obvious expenses, though. You also have to count in the salaries of the people doing the interviews since they’re spending time on that they would otherwise use differently. That can really push up the cost, especially for panel interviews. Even entry-level interviewing isn’t going to be cheap.

    3. ZSD*

      SHRM estimates that replacing a salaried employee costs 6 to 9 months of their salary, but CAP estimates that it can cost more than twice the annual salary. (These organizations are going in with different biases, of course.)

    4. JHunz*

      In addition to what the other commentors have said, don’t forget about the hidden costs of the time for everyone involved in the interviews. If you’re doing panel interviews and do multiple applicants that can really stack up pretty quick

    5. Drop Bear*

      My organisation (medium sized, HR handling recruitment admin and line managers handling interviews) operates on the basis it will cost somewhere between 6-12 months salary per recruitment (direct and indirect costs). Variables identified include average hours/weeks of training required to get up to speed, cost of paying temp staff during recruitment/training.

      1. Drop Bear*

        Oh sorry – forgot to say that the cost of paying out contracts for executives (all our employees have employment contracts – as do most, if not all, workers in this country) isn’t included in our calculations. Non-executives must either be given at least one pay period’s notice or be paid the salary for that period in lieu of notice – this is either a fortnight or a month as per the relevant collective bargaining agreement- executives negotiate individual contracts, including contract ‘payouts’ with the CEO.

    6. Bea*

      Our recruitment ends up being about 3 months time for a small business without many steps to the process. The costs are time for interviews, phone and in person. Then the costs to put the listings on applicable boards.

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      Yes once. It came out to 50% of the annual salary of the role. In this case $25,000.

      I think the rule of thumb is 30% if you are calculating turnover costs.

    8. AshK434*

      That really depends. At my organization the cost per hire is insanely high at around $15K but that’s because our recruiters rely on agencies to fill most positions. Our new CHRO came from an organization where the cost per hire was much much lower around $3800. I’m sure you can find benchmarks based on industry and company sized online

  16. Uhdrea*

    It struck me today that this time last year I was dealing with the tail end of a really rough period at work, complete with a come to Jesus conversation with my manager about whether this job was the right fit for me. This week I attended the kick off breakfast for a highly competitive leadership program she nominated me for. I think I might be getting the hang of this whole career thing.

  17. NonprofitBurnout*

    UPDATE: Accepted the lower-level contract position

    Two Fridays ago, I asked the AAM community for insight into accepting a lower-level position after not being hired for the original role. Both positions are yearlong contract positions that pay very little and aren’t clearly defined.

    My SO persuaded me to give the job a shot because I’ve been actively searching for several months. Therefore, I accepted the position and am now biting my tongue and thinking of excuses to stay out of the office. This is proving challenging because the ED of the tiny nonprofit (five full-time staff and five part-time contractors).

    On three occasions already, the director has failed to communicate need-to-know information to me and twice has contradicted information she and other staff member have provided on assignments. I realize that the full-time position was planned and mine wasn’t directly, so there are issues getting up and running.

    Many of you pointed out that I should be cautious and indicated there might be organizational issues. I agree with your assessment and am trying to make the best of it until something better comes along.

    My strategy is just to think of the position as very elaborate volunteering. Given how tiny amount of the flat-rate monthly check, this should not prove problematic.

    Thanks for your help two weeks ago. Some of it proved accurate, sadly.

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    Earlier in the week, a manager refused to do a training he was supposed to do with me. No explanation, just that i’m on my own. I understand if he had something that was higher priority…but he raised his voice, and was really frustrated and aggravated. It bothered me a lot. I don’t have a problem doing work but I do not yell at my reports or peers and don’t expect to be treated like that by ANYONE here. This was the second time in the last 2-3 months he shouted at me.

    I’m not a confrontational person, I tend to freeze and/or shut down so LOTS of things happen that in the moment, either snarky jokes or (rarely) shouting. I just let it go. My own mgr was out that day, so I emailed him the morning after about it and they had a talk. That same day, we were in a training session that I organized, and this same mgr was laughing and smirking with another mgr. Others noticed this as well. When I had asked him last week to contribute something for the meeting, he made a joke and walked away. He’s also “joked” in the past that he puts all my emails in the trash folder.

    He’s besties with another manager who currently–snarks on me coming in a little late (due to dr appt or medical issues that I’ve already cleared with my own mgr [even though he calls out]), snarked on me when I got nervous about speaking in a room of 30+ people, constantly excludes me when asked “who reviews on your team?” (there’s absolutely NO ambiguity that I review and even my boss has pointed this out that he excludes me).

    And, no, I’m not quitting this job or leaving this field for many many reasons. I just want to know how to deal with this crappiness–scripts, coping tactics etc. Thankfully I have a good relationship w my manager but I can’t go running to him with every single thing. And I’m not even going to ask if I have a right to be upset, b/c I’m tired of always wondering this. I know respect is earned, not given, but I’ve worked my ass off over the years. At some point enough is enough right?

    1. Reba*

      Sorry no advice, just affirmation: that guy is an ass. So’s his friend. I hope someday you do not have to work with them any longer.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Eventually, the toxic people here leave. The ones who treat others like crap, are negative, and just weird….they eventually leave. I am unsure about a lot fo things but I’m definitely not a toxic person and neither are most of the ppl on my team.

        I actually like(d) both of these people, and enjoyed chatting with them from time to time. Bart started alongside me and I had a lot of respect for his knowledge and work ethic, but lately it’s just felt like this. (Nelson just started last year).

        1. Reba*

          Maybe there is a bad dynamic that has emerged with the two of them, where either one alone is ok. Interpersonal stuff can be so weird.

    2. Qwerty*

      I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this!

      Have you had a big picture talk with your manager? The non-shouting events individually feel weird to bring up to a manager, but put them together and you have a pattern of not being respected by your coworker. Maybe take a couple weeks and document what’s been going on since your manager talked to your coworker?

      You mention that respect is earned, but that is not an excuse for how this mean-guy clique is acting. Treating your coworkers with basic decency is an expectation for any working professional.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I did talk to Homer (my manager) about it a while ago, but it was a small part in the context of something else.

        Homer had been away on vacation, and I dropped the ball on a few things. We talked when he came back, and I told him that a lot of my anxiety stemmed from how Bart (the second guy in my post above) was treating me, and I listed other examples. At the time, Homer talked to Bart separately and said the 3 of us can talk when Bart comes back from vacation. Bart came back and things were fine so I dropped it. Nelson shouting at me was a second occurrence. According to Homer, when he spoke to Nelson, Nelson didn’t care that he had shouted. For some reason he had said “I could have handled that better” but he didn’t make any moves to apologize or anything, so we assumed he thinks he did nothing wrong. I don’t report to Nelson, and our work doesn’t overlap so I have no reason to talk to him…it’s a shame, b/c I really did actually enjoy his company and talking to him.

        As far as this being the big picture, yeah, I definitely feel that.

        I hope this isn’t too confusing, I should have used names in the initial post.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Call out the snark and jokes in front of the group in a way the highlights the shirking of duties.
      “Since manager immediately deletes all the emails I send, we do not have an update on X project to report.”
      “I didn’t realized my IBS caused you such an inconvenience.”
      “Sorry I’m late – Snarky Manager once again forgot to include me in the meeting notice for reviewers. Thank you Coworker B for sending it over to me this morning.”
      “Do not raise your voice at me. If you cannot handle this conversation with professionalism, I’ll come back at a better time” and then leave.

      You are right you can’t go to your manager with every little thing, but your email after the shouting incident was appropriate. The more witnesses you have the better and I know your default is to shut down but you are going to have to straighten up and fire back with extreme professionalism. Start with the emails since it isn’t face to face – when excluded from the meeting or group reviewers chat whatever reply all with a “Looks like you forgot to include me again – thanks so and so for adding me in”. Then if it continues, he just looks petty.
      Think of a few phrases you can use in the moment for repeated offenses.
      “Yes, you already made that joke at the last meeting…still isn’t funny” (I wouldn’t add the last part until it has happened at 2 or 3 meetings)
      “Are you done yet? I would like to continue with my presentation on new tax law X since we only have 30 minutes for this meeting.”
      “Please hold comments until the end of the meeting”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Thank you so much, These are good ideas for scripts, esp for the raising the voice. I just hope I could do it without cracking in to tears or something (I hate that about myself).

        The being late thing–I wasn’t there for it. Homer (he knows what’s going on with me) informed Bart I’d be late, and he remarked “what a surprise” in a very sarcastic way. I heard about this later, so it’s not like I could directly confront him about it. Funny thing? I’m here every damn day 30-45 min before him and my mgr pointed this out to him too.

        At the reviewers training, Nelson was snarking on me for mistyping the web address on the screen (seriously, who tf does that?). Normally I’d laugh along but I rolled my eyes and ignored his stupid comments. I wish I had called the two of them out for giggling and whispering during the meeting , but hindsight is 20/20.

        1. Yetanotherjennifer*

          You could practice your responses now, to an empty room, when there’s no emotion. Then practice with a friend being the snark-er. Have fun with it if you can. Make a wand and use a couple spells (but not curses) from Harry Potter. Watch classic or current episodes of Murphy Brown; there’s tons of clips on You Tube. I used to live vicariously through her, thinking of the people I’d like to tell-off like that. Julia Sugarbaker from Designing Women is another role model. Or you could play clips of Emily from Gilmore Girls and come up with your own responses. Try it in a Shakespeare-ian language. And then find your own voice and your own words. You may not do it well the first time you have to do it in real life, but the shock that you’re doing it at all will hide that.

    4. Nita*

      I’d either ignore the snarking or snark right back, whatever floats your boat – but in either case, forget about it the moment it happens because this toxic BS is not worth carrying around in your mind. The bit where he excludes you from the review process is something else, probably should be escalated with your manager and/or HR because in this case, this guy’s childish behavior affects your ability to work with his team. If he’s legit ignoring your emails (not just joking about it), that should be escalated too. Oh, and while you’re at it, throw in the bit where he just didn’t feel like showing up to a training meeting.

      I just really hope you don’t work in the public sector. My husband does, and… this stuff is tolerated to an incredible degree. Going to HR is 200% pointless, and the only answer for anyone who doesn’t like working in that environment, really, is “go job-hunting because this place isn’t going to change.”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’d love ot snark right back, but I tend to freeze up in the moment. I’ve found that when I do stand up for myself, as much as Im ugh in the moment, I do feel much better than when I let it sldie.

        The one who excludes me (Bart), he did this right in front of my manager and boss. They didn’t say anything in the moment but they too were like “WTF?” I let it slide the first time b/c there were a lot of other things going on, but when he said ti a second time, I was kinda blindsided, and tbh still stewing over Nelson.

        The one who ignores my emails (Nelson)–so the context is that all of us managers/supervisors have to deal with tickets that come in. For a long time, he wasn’t doing the ones for his team, and more than once my manager (Homer) had to put his foot down and tell them “hey my teams and I are picking up your slack, start taking care of your tickets.” Bart & Nelson have a tendency to pass off a lot of things that they feel they shouldn’t do as managers…even though other managers (Homer, Marge, etc) do them.

        Don’t get me wrong, there are positives to working here so I’m not leaving this company/field/industry. There’s also the fact that jerks exist everywhere, better learn to deal with them where I can right?

        1. valentine*

          While I think it’s possible there may be a place where people behave professionally toward you, since you’re staying, it’ll help to stop caring what Bart and Nelson think of you, especially when it’s just personal or when you know they’re wrong about you and Homer knows all this and it won’t affect your job negatively. (If they can make trouble for you and ruin your reputation, I don’t know what to say because Homer’s not helping.) A book called Emotional Blackmail taught me I don’t have to interpret others’ actions as requiring emotional labor from me and that, even if they do, I needn’t, and often mustn’t, provide it. Bart and/or Nelson are nasty. They dislike you and no one’s making them hide it. Can you just not care? Can Homer stop passing on the nasty comments he should be handling instead of uselessly dumping them on you? I like CupcakeCounter’s scripts, but you can probably not respond to most of the crap. It’s a lot of wasted effort, unless you’d feel good about it.

    5. Evil HR Person*

      When you come in late and someone snarks at you, “My supervisor is aware and has no problem.” And if you’re feeling extra saucy, “Why do you have a problem with this?” When you’re giving the training, and the two snarkers are together, separate them. One of my VP’s does this by saying we’re playing a game later and wants us to form groups. She goes around the room telling everyone to count up to 4, looks something like this: Jane says 1, Joe says 2, Fergus says 3, Wakeen says 4, Snark #1 says 1, Snark #2 says 2 – and so on. Those people who called out 1 are on Jane’s team and have to sit next to Jane; those who called out 2 are in Joe’s team, etc. Even if you don’t have a game later on, or your training runs the full hour, say, “Aw, chucks! We ran out of time to play the game. Darn!” I mean, teachers separate students all the time; trainers should be afforded respect – since, one would think, you’re surrounded by adults… *rolls eyes* – so you may have to find other ways to separate the snarkers that don’t involve directly telling them to sit apart from each other. I’ve been known to stop talking during a training and look pointedly at the people who are interrupting, so that others have to turn to those people as well. And I WILL separate people who cannot be quiet when sitting together. I do it respectfully, but in front of everybody, so that everybody knows who is wasting their time (it isn’t me).

      I would run scenarios past your manager so that you feel comfortable before implementing things. So, even though you don’t want to go to your supervisor every time Snarky McSnarkypants says something stupid, you can just get a blanket permission from your supervisor to shut him down. Say, “I’ve been having continuing trouble with Snarky, and I don’t want to come to you every time it happens. Is there anything you’d like me to say to shut him down?” Or, conversely, if you think of something, ask your supervisor, “Is it okay to tell Snarky 1 and Snarky 2 to go F themselves as a matter of course?” (That’s probably bad advice from me. I’m happy to tell people off in diplomatic ways, but you may not be – so substitute “to go F themselves” with an action that you’re actually comfortable doing.)

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s an excellent idea of running scenarios with him. He’s been great at helping me w client scenarios and generally has my back on Bart & Nelson. Thank you.

    6. GeniusCandyBar*

      Actually, respect to others should be given. Just as courtesy should be shown. Treating others with respect is how adults secure with themselves act. “respect is earned, not given” is how you ‘other’ people, it is how the giver of respect creates authority over those who have to do the earning. Case in point – you have years of ass-working-off, yet this manager does not believe you’ve earned the ‘gift’ of his respect. When you interact with this person, remind yourself of what he has done to lose your respect, not why haven’t you earned his. Call him out on his bad behavior by stating exactly what it is. “Roger, you and Barton are laughing so hard – tell us the joke?” or try the classic wait until the laughing stops, and then either carry on with no comment, or continue on after saying “Roger, I want to make sure you and Barton hear this next part on xxx process, which as I was saying…” If left out of meetings, show up (even if late) with the bright comment, “Roger must have left me off again, I can’t imagine why he keeps forgetting who has been reviewing for the past 3 year, I guess his memory is not what it used to be.”
      He’s an ass, and he is relying on the social contract, your sense of courtesy, and your fear of confrontation to allow him to continue being an ass. You have to distance yourself from the fear, the anxiety, the anger of his behavior and just name it as it happens – imagine you are a sociologist who is studying a subject, and your comments are you giving a factual report. Otherwise you will continue to shoulder all the emotional burden of his bad behavior, while he gets to keep on acting badly and has the position of being able to say “I forgot”, “I was kidding”, “Nervous never said anything”.

    7. Meredith Brooks*

      Not sure if he’s a manager or has some authority over you. But if not…

      As discussing this with your manager hasn’t really resolved the situation and you’re not interested in leaving or transferring or etc. I think you need to bite the bullet on this guy. It feels to me that he’s picking on you because he can and he knows it. Your response has been to get your manager involved, which hasn’t resulted in resolving the problem, which just confirms to this person that he can continue to do it. I think you need to stick up for yourself. If he yells at you, cut him off and tell him you’ll talk to him when he’s calmed down. If he makes snarky comments about you in front of others, tell him he’s being obnoxious. Do all of this calmly without agitation or emotion. He doesn’t deserve your emotional energy and you shouldn’t give it to him.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        He is a manager, although I don’t report to him I report to my own manager (Homer). I don’t think That should affect any of the responses here? we don’t yell at people here and refuse to do work. In fact I don’t thjnk this guy respects my manager/boss either

        1. Meredith Brooks*

          The fact that he’s an awful human being doesn’t change, but his position may influence the best way to respond to him and keep your job. While I agree with you that it’s never approrpriate to yell at someone or ignore one’s responsibilities, the fact is that we live and work in a world of other people who have different interpretations of what that means.

          It doesn’t seem that he respects your manager either as he hasn’t changed his tone. Though it’s also possible your manager hasn’t expressed how strongly this needs to stop.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            True, you’re right. I think I misunderstood your earlier comment. A lot of ppl I know seem to think it’s OK for managers to yell, belittle etc. I know I used to think that.

        2. Gingersnapped*

          Think about how a teacher interacts with an unruly child. The teacher must be firm and direct, cannot take offense or retaliate. Because the person with authority is the person who is showing respect and patience. Just because he wants lord over people doesn’t mean you have to agree to bow down. His bad behavior & disrespect of others is actually his problem, not yours. It feels personal, but he really doesn’t know you well enough to interact with you on a personal basis. Whatever you symbolize to him, has little to do with who you actually are.

          1. TootsNYC*

            oh yes!! I gather great strength of will from the phrase “channel my inner daycare worker.”

            (my kids were in a great daycare, and the staff there are role models in so many ways)

  19. Anon librarian*

    My degree is in library science, but I want to be in a more technical role. (Maybe something with databases or IT?) Did anyone transition to a more technical role from libraries (or non-librarians out there) ? What do you do?

    1. GigglyPuff*

      From what I’ve seen, these are actually the more in-demand librarian jobs out there right now, I think a lot of places are looking for people to be bridges between traditional IT and regular library folk. From looking at job postings, I’m in a slightly related area, they are usually looking for programming knowledge/experience like Python, Ruby, etc., things like SQL, database knowledge, different operating systems like Linux are typically mentioned. Usually the job titles are along the lines of Systems Librarian/Archivist if you look at those.

      Sorry if you already know all that. I haven’t transitioned to those roles or anything but my guess, you’d either have to be really good at self-teaching yourself and creating examples of your work, or go to school for some of this stuff, either continuing education or another degree.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Note that Linux is a variety of Unix. You should be able to find a class called something like “Unix for Programmers and Users” which will get you a healthy start.

    2. Rosamond*

      I haven’t done this transition myself (though I’ve considered it, on and off), but have plenty of colleagues who have. Lots of people like GigglyPuff describes, who work tech jobs in libraries, or library-ish jobs in tech fields. Also some people who work in UX, and then some hardcore data science/informatics people. Do you have some tech skills already? If not, can you try teaching yourself some simple coding? And do you have the opportunity to contribute to tech-oriented projects in a library? That’s where I’d start, and see if you actually like doing it. I also know librarians who tried a more tech-y role, and then decided they missed public interaction.

        1. Rosamond*

          Well, it’s a start, and now you know you have the aptitude to learn more. To proceed, you’ll likely need to do some combination of teaching yourself more skills (probably SQL if you’re interested in databases), taking some classes, volunteering on projects that will give you experience, and applying for entry-level jobs.

    4. Ellery*

      I’m a Technical Services Librarian for a large law firm, and a lot of my co-workers are more technical and less librarian (I’d consider myself more librarian since I’m the cataloger) but they deal with providing access to databases, resource management, organizing the wiki, and helping me with issues in the OPAC if anything comes up that I can’t handle, etc. You might look to the private sector like businesses who are looking for more technically-minded people to help manage their information resources. Or even look to those resources themselves?

    5. Blablabirdie*

      I work with several librarians within IT. We train librarians in database management and catalogue handling with various software solutions. The librarians are consultants that help with planning and development. They also work with project management.

    7. Doc Control Librarian*

      I have an MLIS and work as a document control manager and all of the work is in databases and GIS, and involves engineering records. So that might be a route to explore. Document control also tends to pay more than traditional library roles.

  20. BRR*

    I’ve been in limbo for a new/better title for a very long time. There has been a lot of back and forth because I’m trying to get one that is typical for my industry but my industry’s title structure and my employer’s title structure don’t line up (my employer is also quite rigid about titles). The tl;dr is that when my manager finally asked senior leadership, who has to approve all new titles, she asked for the wrong title. The one she asked for is worse than my current title and I had previously told her (with professional wording) that this title would essentially be a demotion.

    While not final yet, my understanding is that my options are going to be either keep my current title with no option anytime soon (possibly ever) for a better one or take the new/worse one. How do I politely decline the new/worse title? From our last conversation I realized that I’m at risk of coming off somewhat unappreciative in her eyes but I would prefer to not take a worse title as a “promotion.”

    1. Cosette*

      Unless your industry is vastly different than the several I have worked in, the title is much less important than you are making it. Just make it clear in your resume what your actual duties are/were. I’m curious what the titles are, but I suspect if you tell me it may out you. I don’t know that you can turn down a title change, at any rate….

  21. breathing into paper bag*

    New manager, not even past my probationary period yet at the new job, and I have to have a pretty serious performance- and behavior-related conversation this afternoon with a direct report I inherited. I have no advice to ask but just have to get it off my chest that even though I signed up for this and it’s unquestionably the right thing to do for the rest of the department… it sucks a lot.

      1. breathing into paper bag*

        This is the official warning before a PIP if things don’t improve. I’m not optimistic they will, either. There have been issues for many years, but nothing has been documented, which has been a point of major frustration for me – when I started, no fewer than ten people told me with varying degrees of directness that this person has had some pretty egregious issues. I witnessed these issues myself within days. But I have to start the documentation from scratch. He even got a merit raise in the past year. I am less than thrilled, to say the least, that even though EVERYONE knew there was a problem, I’m the first person ever trying to hold this person accountable in any meaningful way. I’m a brand new manager, and this is completely new to me, and I’m not shying away from the situation, but I’m profoundly unhappy about it. I guess I’m just venting here to better maintain the cool, unflappable professional demeanor offline.

        TGIF, at least.

        1. Car Alarm that Goes Off at 5am*

          Just remember, an underperforming employee is a burden that the other employees bear the brunt of.
          It undermines other people’s faith in the company, reduces morale and makes extra work for those who have to correct or complete unfinished work.

        2. Em*

          But what a rock star / hero you are going to be for being the one who finally deals with the problem that everyone sees.

      1. breathing into paper bag*

        Yep. Thanks for the commiseration. Just had the initial conversation and… I do not feel better. But at least it’s out there now.

        1. Bea*

          You eat an elephant one bite at a time. You’ve got the first one down. Many good vibes being sent your way. This sucks but it’s worth it in the end to help the team.

    3. Bar Director*

      I feel you, when I started here I inherited quite a few handfuls of a similar nature and then at various points was pushed into hiring others.

      A thing to think about though, and I’d love to hear other folks thoughts on this – I recently was about to put an employee on PIP and googled around for some examples of what a good form might look like, what it should include, etc. One website mentioned that a PIP should only be used when one genuinely thinks the employee CAN improve and to guide them in that way, rather than just as a way to collect documentation to lead to firing. It was phrased in a way like “it’s not a kindness or fair to string people along when you don’t feel its possible to get to the level they ought to be.” Really made me consider whether or not the situation fit and whether I should indeed draft a formal PIP. We ended up letting the person go instead.

  22. :(*

    How do people cope with mental help during a job search? I’ve been looking for full time positions since February (always a bridesmaid and never the bride). Plus it doesn’t help that companies are constantly ghosting me (3 so far) – one was even for a big name in the entertainment industry! For the last month, I’ve just been so dead tired and unable to enjoy anything. Politics don’t help but I just need to find healthier ways of coping instead of feeling like I’m about to cry all the time.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      You’ve probably seen the Captain Awkward about keeping up your work game when you’re depressed – I think there’s a few things that would work for job searching as well, in terms of not letting the small things (looking presentable, being on time) trip you up.

    2. Quill*

      My past two oeriods of unemployment I played a LOT of video games. And got a decent amount of exercise – my preferred method is bike riding.

      Turning off twitter/facebook/etc is good for both productivity and controlling your news consumption, I find.

    3. Storie*

      Entertainment companies are the worst, in my opinion, about ghosting. I’ve got enough ghosts to fill a haunted house from my own search. Try not to take it personally—even though it feels personal. My best tactics are making lists of proactive things to do each day (call contacts, set meetings, check job boards, or explore new ways to network) and then do something for myself. Exercise, etc. This is a tough time in the industry. Chin up!

    4. Kay*

      Whenever I’m unemployed I try to throw myself into a new hobby/learning a new skill. That’s how I picked up knitting, and started to teach myself a few different languages, and some other things that I didn’t stick with but helped a lot at the time. It gives you something to talk about when people ask about the job search “nothing yet, but I’m trying Cool Thing lately! Let me tell you about that…” and gives the feeling of completing goals, of progressing, of filling the hours productively. It’s also good for your brain to pick up new skills, so even if you don’t stick with it when you do get a job it’s not time wasted.

      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        Agreed. I started my blog during my last period of unemployment, initially because I wanted to write something that wasn’t job applications, but it actually meant I learnt new skills in terms of photography, SEO etc as well. Plus it led to me getting my side job, so it did eventually pay off! I also got really into running – we lived right next a huge park and it was just going into summer, so I started the Zombies, Run! version of Couch to 5k and got myself in the habit of going out for a run around 5pm to help clear the cobwebs of a day of job-hunting.

        Good luck in your job search OP. I hope you find something soon.

    5. Gumby*

      Is there any sort of job seekers meet up near you? I found working on my job search near other people doing the same thing for a few hours each week really helped. As long as you keep working towards the goal rather than distracting yourselves.

      I also tried to plan one fun “I couldn’t do this if I had a job” thing every week. Mostly it was hiking in the middle of a weekday on paths that are crowded on the weekend. Or going to a beach. Visiting a museum. There is a certain amount of glee in going to the grocery store mid-day when it’s not crowded. Taking a factory tour (bonus points if it is a chocolate factory or similar).

      Also, I’m fully employed and am staying off social media and, frankly, most traditional media right now for my own mental health.

    6. Just Me*

      I feel for you. My partner went through a protracted period of unemployment where there was absolutely nothing in his industry. It was really hard on him, especially as he already struggles with mental health issues. A few things helped; meds (I know, easier said than done if you have limited income. But seeing his doctor and getting his meds adjusted helped.); a hobby he could focus on and feel like accomplished something; he took over almost all the housework to feel like he was contributing; exercise; talking about it with someone who didn’t judge; turning off the news. Being unemployed is incredibly difficult, realizing that it is exhausting, draining and mentally brutal is important. Be kind to yourself and good luck.

    7. Alfonzo Mango*

      Have you looked up temp agencies in your area? That really helped me get back on my feet.

    8. Laura H.*

      Find something volunteery to do. Once a week. That was prolly the only thing that helped me stay level while I was unemployed for 18 months after college. (Now I’m underemployed but holy moly it beats unemployment by miles- and I still do that volunteer activity.)

    9. Redshirt*

      I try to focus on volunteering. It’s something that gets me out of the house, gets the brain happy, and helps to keep my resume relevant.

      Plus I don’t apply for jobs as if it’s a full time gig. 1) Applying for jobs 8 hours a day is exhausting. 2) one usually runs out of relevant jobs to apply for. Even if you’re applying at Tim Hortons, they have a finite amount of locations to apply at!

  23. quitting quitter*

    I resigned from my job of several years this week and wow. My normally distant-but-friendly-enough boss is being kind of a jerk about it. Basically pretending I don’t exist, refusing to meet about what he’d like done between now and when I leave in two weeks.

    I’m mostly raising my eyebrow at it, and doing the best I can to make sure everything is in good shape before I leave.

    1. Annie Moose*

      Honestly, what else can you do? If he’s not willing to talk to you, then you’ll just have to do the best you can on your own.

      If there was stuff you absolutely needed to talk to him about, I’d wonder about cornering him in person instead of trying to schedule a formal meeting or emailing, if you had one or two major questions that you needed direct answers or input for.

    2. LKW*

      I find it fascinating that people react like that to a resignation, especially after several years. My first reaction is always “Congrats!” then I start to swear since I have to now do more work.

    3. Doug Judy*

      I had a boss like this. He was a very good manager, and turn over in our department was very minimal, only three people total had left during the 8 years I worked there. But when someone did leave, he basically ignored them during their notice period. I was an exception. I had many conversations with him for the two years leading up to my departure about career advancement, and he was helping me but there just wasn’t anything coming internally. So he wasn’t surprised when I gave my notice and we had a very nice conversation on my last day. The other two that left had worked there 10 and 15 years and I think he was just blindsided and he just ignored the fact they were leaving. I don’t know if he was in some kind of denial or what but it was weird and out of character for a normally very good manager.

      Do what you can and don’t worry about it. If things are left a mess, that’s on him, not you.

    4. OhGee*

      I’m in a similar place with one of my two teammates, and it feels pretty crummy, but I’m also just trying to hand over all of my long-term projects neat and tidy.

      1. quitting quitter*

        Thanks for the commiseration. The many bros I work with keep telling me not to take it personally. Which, I’m not hurt, I feel frustrated because I’m trying to do a good job and he seems disinterested in that happening. Honestly the guys trying to make any work issues or frustrations I’ve had into figments of phantom girl feelings is part of the reason I’m leaving.

    6. Bea*

      You’re such a good person.

      Seriously.

      When I quit my boss did the same stuff only I hated him so the distance was cool as well. I didn’t do anything to clean things up, he never asked and I was done with working my butt off for such a buffoon. So yep, you’re awesome. I even shredded all my notes and check lists so whoever came in next could rely on their own instincts to carry them through.

    7. ..Kat..*

      I recommend sending him an email that details what you will focus on during your notice period. End with “let me know if you want any changes to this plan.”

  24. Bye Academia*

    Where are the best places to find remote job listings?

    I remember different job boards being brought up here before, but can’t find them now. A paid site is okay if it’s really good.

    3. DivineMissL*

      I had signed up for FlexJobs.com, as I was looking for a part-time job to do from home in the evenings and on weekends. While there was not much in the way of part-time evening work, there were TONS of full-time jobs as well as part-time day jobs from very reputable, well-known companies. I paid for one month of access for $14.99 to try it out, but I think there were longer subscriptions that worked out to be cheaper if you were willing to commit to more time.

    4. Qwerty*

      This was discussed a couple weeks ago, but I don’t remember which date. I think someone mentioned that regular job sites like Indeed allow you to type “remote” into the location bar. If there’s job sites that you typically use for non-remote jobs, maybe Google if they have a remote filter?

      Also, if you’re in tech, I’ve been seeing a lot of remote job ads when on StackOverflow, so I’m assuming they have a filter for them.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        I’ve had pretty varying levels of luck using “remote” as a search term on Indeed. Some of the jobs that turned up were remote, but most didn’t have any mention of being remote when you actually opened them, and some specifically said you had to be local in an office. I’m not sure how the algorithm works for that, but it needs a lot of help before you can rely on it.

    1. Tardigrade*

      I’m curious about this as well! I feel like the title for my role doesn’t accurately reflect the work, but another title does.

        1. only acting normal*

          Been there: I was a “customer service assistant” (average industry wage = minimum wage) instead of “data entry clerk” (average industry wage > minimum wage).

    2. DukesoftheStratosphere*

      I have in the past (got it) and am currently doing it again. What made it successful the first time (and I hope will make it successful again), is showing the business case of why the change is needed. Documenting the additional work that was not on the job description, showing the saved man-hours for the department (and saved hours for other departments for stuff that was interdepartmental), making the case that these were higher-level duties- resulting in a new title and a bump in job grade.

    3. halmsh*

      I’ve watched other people do this to little/no success. Eventually we unionized recognizing that it was the only way to have a say in our titles, job descriptions, and compensation.

    4. Canadian Natasha*

      Not exactly the same but in a past government job I worked with my office mates to successfully get our common position recategorised at a higher union level. There was a built-in process for it that involved writing up a ton of examples of how we regularly did each job duty listed in the job description for the higher level.

  26. Lauren*

    I mentioned this before: I work with another woman, “Vera”. It’s just the two if us in our department. There’s another woman, “Roxie” that comes in from another branch a couple times during the week. Vera and Roxie worked together at the other branch, but then Vera was moved.

    Vera and I were talking a few weeks ago and I mentioned that the AC wasn’t working in my car because we were talking about cars. (It’s a 10 year-old car.)

    The weather was hot out the other day and as we were leaving for the day, we were with Roxie talking about how it was such a nice day, etc.

    Then Vera said to Roxie, “Hey, Roxie. Does the AC work in YOUR car?”

    I was sort of hurt because Vera KNOWS that I’m having issues with my car. It’s an old car and I’m looking at getting another car, but I don’t have a lot of money. I don’t know why she had to say that. (Yes, I realize that I shouldn’t have told her about my car, but she also didn’t have to make a remark like that.)

    It was the end of the day, so I just ignored the remark, said good night, and went to my car, but what is her problem? I don’t know if she’s trying to be funny, but I thought I left this type of stuff back in junior high where it belongs. How do you handle people or situations like this? I don’t get it because she teases people and will say, “I’m just teasing!” But with me she doesn’t.

    1. WellRed*

      I think you are taking that remark waaaaaaay too personally, probably because, if I recall, you are having other, ongoing issues with these two.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            I don’t have the Background that others do. But I can understand how a seemingly innocent remark can be grating when someone is constantly snarking on you. Hopefully they stop soon.

        2. Kittymommy*

          Neither do I. I don’t know what happened the history is, but I’m not seeing the problem. It’s weird, but not really a big deal, in my opinion.

      2. Courageous cat*

        Yeah I’d agree with the first part, it sounds pretty innocuous to me. I’m sure it’s context-dependent but I can’t imagine feeling too put out by it.

        If this is a chronic problem, then start limiting yourself with her. Be professional and polite and nothing more.

    2. LKW*

      So now you know she’s a bit of a mean girl and a definite gossip. Limit what you share. Redirect the conversation if it gets into personal areas. Ask her questions about her life “Oh, my car troubles are what they are… What are you doing for the holidays?”

      1. Lauren*

        I just get thrown because she seems nice and sweet… sort of like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I feel stupid and manipulated after though.

        1. LKW*

          That’s how they do it though. They suck you in and then boom. We’ve all been there. Come up with a few choice deflection phrases. Also the “That’s Nice” game is fun. When she’s telling you about all the things she has you just say “Oh, isn’t that nice.” without a hint of jealousy. It drives people mad because they want you to be jealous or try to top them. A similar game is “Hmmm…” / “Hmmm?” -which is when they’re gossiping and you just respond as if you’re not paying attention.

        2. Meredith Brooks*

          I’m about to be blunt, though I do understand your frustration… but, if you’ve experienced this multiple times with Vera — then she is manipulating you and you’re also letting her do it. Stop confiding in her, you are not going to win her over. The woman either is mean, thrives on creating drama, or is clueless. None of which you want to deal with.

  27. A Nonnus Mousicus*

    So, I was laid off last Friday. It has turned out to be something of a blessing in disguise, however, since I wasn’t happy at the company and felt like I was being forced into a role that I didn’t want. The major hiccup is that I am now 7 months pregnant. I’ve had several phone screens so far and I’m confident that I will get something soon, but I have no idea how to do in-person interviews while pregnant. I am planning to hide it as best I can during the interview and bring it up only when I get an offer along with my plan for maternity leave. Has anyone else had experience with this?

      1. A Nonnus Mousicus*

        I’ve been thinking about that, but I’ll be honest that it’s only been a week and I’m starting to go stir-crazy. I want to get started ASAP not just for my own sanity but because I want to get up to speed before I am off for maternity leave. The nature of my occupation is such that remote work is also possible.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I’ll be honest, if I was the hiring manager, I would be reluctant to bring you on board before your leave if you’re that far along. It seems unlikely that you’d be able to get up to speed before your leave and I’d worry that we’d be starting over from scratch when you returned. You have no idea how long the hiring process is going to take plus there is always a chance of the baby coming early.

          1. A Nonnus Mousicus*

            Hmm that is good to note, thank you. I will consider that. Would you still advise only bringing it up should I get an offer?

            1. A Nonnus Mousicus*

              Beyond my needing to work for my own sanity, I can’t afford not to work until after my baby is born.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                What’s your severance situation? As a very pregnant person, you may be well positioned to negotiate more severance than you were initially offered.

                1. A Nonnus Mousicus*

                  I received severance, but the company wasn’t in a good enough position financially to offer me more than they did. I am kicking myself for not pushing harder, but it was something of a shock and I was in something of an emotional state at the time.

                2. Natalie*

                  @A Nonnus Mousicus, it’s not clear to me if there’s a working partner in the picture, but if not you almost certainly qualify for WIC and possibly other benefits. I mention that just because if you haven’t needed assistance before it might not occur to you that you qualify. Most programs are based on your current income, not what you made last year or whatever.

          2. Ktelzbeth*

            I have no idea what you do, but will share this hopeful opposite example. The neonatal intensive care unit at the hospital where I worked just hired two new doctors. One went out on maternity leave very shortly after her start date (but she did start) and the other about the time the first came back.

    2. Nanc*

      Would short-term temp work be an option? It’s been quite awhile since I temped (which I actually loved and if I could get benefits I would have done it for the rest of my life) but the agency was always scrambling to find folks who would take short-term jobs. Literally 1 or 2 days of receptionist work or data entry or other admin stuff.

      Good luck with all this and the new kiddo.

      1. Almond Butter*

        I second the temp positions until you have the baby. Not to be the horrible person but really even if they picked you today it would take 2 -3 weeks to get the background checks done and get you a start date, which at that point the you would be at least 8 months. Then you would be in the job for maybe 3-6 weeks and then off for 6-12 weeks. So at the least anyone hiring you would be looking at not having you really start until after maternity leave. If you are in the US you are most likely in the same boat for maternity leave if you get hired or are still unemployed as most companies wouldn’t have you eligible in your first 90 days to use any paid leave.

  28. AnonGoodNurse*

    I received this email yesterday (names changed)…. It was out of the blue. I haven’t spoken with Lucinda in two years. I guesses she’s moving (since it’s from out of state?) She was a rock star EA but quit because she wanted more flexibility and decided to pursue a real estate. On the other hand, I don’t have the time or inclination to respond chapter and verse to these questions. Thoughts?
    I may respond that Lucinda is fantastic and I’m available to chat for a few minutes if there are specific questions she wants to discuss?

    Good morning,

    I am a Recruiter for Staffing Agency.  Recently Lucinda Warblesworth has listed you as a reference. Can you please describe your working relationship with Lucinda?  What can you tell me about her work performance, attendance, reliability and quality of work?  What are her greatest strengths and/or weaknesses?  She is interested in an Executive Assistant position with one of my clients.  How will her skills and experience align with this type of position?

    Thanks in advance for your time,

    Fergus

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think that’s weird. This is a phone call, not an email. The recruiter should have asked you if you have time to talk. I would answer exactly the way you want to, that you’d be happy to be a reference for Lucinda (if that’s the case!) but you’d prefer to discuss this over the phone.

    2. Anon's Last Day*

      Considering it’s out of the blue I would definitely not take the time to craft a well-written response to all that. IMO I think suggesting a phone call is perfectly fine.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      I would start by contacting Lucinda and letting her know that you received this e-mail and to ask her more about it before you respond to a random request for the information about her. At this point you have no idea if she even knows that this person is requesting info about her.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        This!! with so many scams going on out here, I would definitely check with Lucinda to make sure this is legit.

    4. Anon From Here*

      Maybe Lucinda didn’t share your phone number with the recruiter and gave them just your e-mail.

      Anyway, I’d handle with a phone call, not a return e-mail.

    5. Bea*

      Lucinda should have told you she’s still using you as a reference. I agree with others it may also be a scam and would assume as much unless Lucinda contacts you first.

      1. Darren*

        I’m not sure I understand the potential scam aspects of this (and you aren’t the only person that mentioned this as a possibility).

        All of those questions strike me as entirely safe to answer (they deal solely with work experience and performance) and I can’t see how any answers to them could potentially lead to a scam of some kind.

        I definitely understand caution, and I’d definitely make sure not to give out personal information but strictly performance related questions like this I would answer without a second thought (especially since some people that might use me as a reference wouldn’t have a way to contact me directly easily).

    6. Sarah G*

      Written reference requests by email are actually relatively common. They’re a dumb approach, but nonetheless it’s not unusual.
      I can’t imagine how or why this would be a scam; none of the information they are requesting would be of any use to anyone other than a recruiter or potential employer — it’s not like their asking for her SSN or telling you to click on a suspect link.
      That said, I think your suggested response is reasonable overall, with the exception that I would briefly address the questions just a little bit more. If she was a “rockstar” EA, it would be a kindness to take 5 min and write that Lucinda worked for you as an EA from 2015 to 2017 (or whatever is applicable) and tell them what you told us — that she was a “rockstar EA” but left to pursue other opportunities. And then state that you would recommend her unequivocally and without reservation for any EA position (if that’s true) or that you’d hire her again in a heartbeat, or something along those lines. Then you can wrapt it up by offering the phone chat if there are specific questions she wants to discuss.
      Regardless of whether Lucinda gave you a heads up, I think she deserves this much, if she was a rockstar caliber employee! She may not have known they would be calling references; perhaps she hasn’t even interviewed yet. You could give Lucinda a heads up that this person contacted you, and that you gave a positive reference, but I really believe you do NOT need to worry about this being a scam!

  29. Anon's Last Day*

    It’s my last day at work! Starting the new job bright and early on Monday so not much time to rest and recharge. No questions today… but I think this will be the strangest last day of work I’ll ever have. My boss left abruptly citing an anxiety attack (sent me a text while I was in the bathroom, no less) so I suppose I will be dismissing myself today. It’s been an eventful, often chaotic five years at this place, ha!

    2. Cosette*

      That sounds like something my grandboss would do! He will do anything to avoid actually having a conversation.

  30. Jackers*

    How do you explain to a potential interviewer a voluntary change from high level management (director with a team of 30) to a senior level individual contributor role? I was good at the management of processes and getting shit done but recognized I sucked as a people manager and therefore voluntarily sought out a new role with no supervisory responsibilities. How do you say “I sucked at that part without making them think you sucked at everything? I put in over 2 years in that role, for perspective, so it’s not a small blip on the resume.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      “I learned that I prefer managing processes to managing people and am looking to contribute more that way.”

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, you don’t have to tell them you sucked at it. Just that you realized you don’t like it and don’t want to do it any longer.

    2. Qwerty*

      It is not uncommon for someone to want to go back to being a contributor. The best managers I had ended up getting new jobs as senior contributors because they preferred doing the work to being in meetings. I’d recommend focusing on why you like being a contributor and why you are skilled at rather than saying you bad at being a people manager. The interviewer just needs to know that it was a voluntary switch and that you don’t want to be on the management track anymore.

    3. OtterB*

      “While there were things I liked about a management role, I found I really missed the chance to dig deeply into X [where, preferably, X is something key to the job you’re interviewing for] because I think that’s my strength.”

  31. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    So something I’ve long suspected about Fergus has been confirmed. With his personality type, I was almost certain that he would be a conspiracy theorist. Whoo, boy. Is he ever. He talked for probably about a half an hour today about how some celebrities are secretly lizard people. Lizard people. He made another coworker watch a video on it. He’s not sure about some of the others, but he’s sure about Beyoncé. There’s about a 60/40 chance that he actually believes this. He talks about it like he does.

    We did some articles on breast cancer for October. Farquad did a story on a lady who’s a breast cancer survivor. He wrote about how she had chemo and radiation. And then a vasectomy. We had to have a talk about how ladies don’t have those.

    You hear the most interesting things on the scanner on Saturday nights. A woman called in to 911, said her boyfriend/husband/whatever was outside slashing her tires. The dispatcher said she could hear him going on in the background, yelling. Well, about fifteen minutes later, the woman calls back, and says that she doesn’t need cops, because he was only pretending to slash her tires.

    3. Quill*

      I would be so tempted to just continuously send Fergus youtube clips of various lizards with subject lines like “Kanye West” and “Mozart.”

      What kind of a lizard would Kanye West be anyway?

      Regardless, you’re living in the plot of a novel at this job.

    5. Not a Lizard Person*

      It’s actually a pretty common thought in some parts of the internet that the Queen of England is a lizard person, since she has seemingly stopped getting older. :P

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I find conspiracy theories entertaining, and I keep meaning to read the original “omg lizard people” book, but I find I never quite have the mental bandwidth for that level of… hm… specialness when there are other things I could be doing. Like napping.

    6. Garland not Andrews*

      Well the vasectomy works if the survivor is a man! A male cousin had breast cancer a few years ago. Guys it is not just ladies that get it so please be aware!

    7. Jean (just Jean)*

      Thanks for returning…and reminding us that wherever there are people, there is potential for drama and narrative.

      Re the breast cancer patient who needed a vasectomy: It’s possible the journalist reached for the wrong word (“vasectomy” instead of “tubal ligation” or “hysterectomy”??); or that the patient was a trans woman, meaning started out life with male genitals; … or that I’m astonishingly uninformed, in which case, somebody please pardon and correct my ignorance. I’m honestly trying not to spread misinformation.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Nope, he meant mastectomy. He just couldn’t remember what it’s called, so he went with vasectomy. He didn’t understand what was wrong until I pointed it out.

  32. I am a mouse, duh*

    Does being peers means equal treatment?
    in my department i have 3 colleague who have a title at the same level as mine (manager), although our work and responsibilities are very different. we all report to the same boss, Alison. we all started in our position within weeks of each other.
    alison treats two of my colleagues very differently than me: lots of availability, support in their work, A LOT more time scheduled to discuss and advance projects, etc. Alison’s requested that the two other colleagues’ office be placed closest to hers, while mine is far away, even though i was vocal about how this was impacting my work.
    as a result i feel like it is harder for me to complete my work, and worse is that i feel like the difference in treatment cultivates an impression that i am inferior in title or status to my other colleagues (i do feel like the two of them have started to get “a big head” and are being condescending to me). when i ask my boss about it she does say that we are equals and that our respective works have the same importance and priority. she also recognizes that she should give me more time and support.
    in my head, because we have the same seniority and the same level title, i feel like we should be treated more as equals.
    am I wrong?

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Kinda. Just like with raising children, certain staff need different support. I would try to shift my thinking to, “I must not need so much support in her eyes”. It may not be accurate but your boss might just have a different perspective. Ask her about it. “I notice you kept me across the bull-pin and that you seem to spend a lot of time coaching Jim and Sue. Is there anything I need to know or that I should be worried about? I’m feeling a little like a silo when I very much want to be part of the team.”

    2. valentine*

      Don’t let him control your interactions, cut him off as often as necessary, and be blunt if you need to tell him to listen until you ask a direct question. Cite examples where he fell short and how the person in his role should have handled it, even if it’s in more general terms, because he’ll argue the specifics and claim the world’s out to get him, everyone/-thing is blocking his genius.

  33. New ED*

    So, I recently became the Executive director of a small non profit and unfortunately have to have a conversation with our office manager about poor performance that is at the level it threatens his job. This will be an initial conversation which, if it doesn’t solve the problem, will be followed by a PIP and then, if the performance doesn’t vastly improve, dismissal. This is my first time dealing with this and all of the concerns about his performance relate either to soft skills, clearly communicating with staff, attitude towards staff making requests of him, or to mistakes which on their own are all minor but in the aggregate mean that I spend so much of my time checking his work and that I can’t give him tasks that should be his responsibility. Additionally part of the problem is that he is not able to figure things out on his own. With clear and explicit directions he does better but we need someone in this position who doesn’t require that. Any suggestions for ways to discuss with him that will get through to him, he has a tendency toward defensiveness, or to explain that the results of his frequent mistakes are the problem, not any of the individual mistakes? All help is appreciated as I’m new to this!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This is extra hard because I think it pays to be really clear about the changes you need to see, and it sounds like you have more big-picture overview stuff you’re worried about. I’ve realized at my org they do a pretty good job about giving people assignments to handle and then holding them responsible. Could you ask him to handle all aspects of X complicated stretch assignment that uses the skills you’re worried about, with the understanding that this is his chance to prove himself and his job is one the line? At least then you’d have a more fair unambiguous reason to either continue to invest in him, or fire him.

      1. New ED*

        Thanks, I totally understand your point but worry that giving him a stretch project would send the wrong message – your performance is below par and is threatening your job, so let me give you extra responsibility with a difficult project. Also I really don’t have a stretch project that would help me measure attitude and communication, which are some of the areas where he is really falling down.

    2. LKW*

      I think given the sheer scope of the mistakes and issues you need to lay out a careful prioritization of what is most important to correct and demonstrate competency first. Of his issues, which impact the organization most? Which impact you the most? Which would be most damaging if left unresolved/uncorrected?

      Then lay out discrete milestones – I need to see this improve by this date. With that better, I then need to see this by this date…

      You will also have to be very clear that once skill A is better and he tackles skill B he has to keep Skill A at the expected level.

      1. New ED*

        Honestly, the biggest issue is his attitude, followed closely by his judgment, but it is really hard to lay out discrete milestones around attitude and judgment. Even the third most critical piece, his ability to figure things out on his own is hard to create benchmarks around because I could say “Be able to handle x process without errors” but the expectaion then is that I should give him the training/support to achieve this. However, it is ridiculous for me as the Executive Director to need to train him in things that he should be the lead on. Also, my providing training on one process, and him ultimately mastering it and reducing errors, won’t address any of the top issues we have with him so it would be unfair to set this as a benchmark.

    3. Marthooh*

      It sounds like he’s an all-around bad manager. It’s especially concerning that he has problems with “soft skills, clearly communicating with staff, attitude towards staff making requests of him”.

      Explain the problems as clearly as you can, put him on a PIP, and fire him. Start looking for a replacement now. This is a situation where you really do have to be cruel (to this guy) to be kind (to everyone he manages).

      1. New ED*

        To be clear, he is the office manager, so he manages office processes around things like supply orders, bill payments, etc. This is an admin support position, he does not manage any staff.

    4. zora*

      Look on this site for articles about PIPs and handling low performers, Alison has written a few.

      Unfortunately, I agree with the others, you are eventually going to have to fire this person. If they are not a detail person and you need someone who is autonomous and detail-oriented in this position, he is probably going to have to go. So, the longer you drag it out, the worse for everyone involved including the employee.

      Try to remember:
      1. Your other employees are being harmed the longer you keep this guy, they are either picking up his slack, or not having support, which makes their jobs harder. Think about how resolving this is actually to help them, not just yourself.
      2. There is someone out there (probably several of them) who COULD do this guy’s job, and do it better, and are also nice people and deserve to have a good job. By keeping him, you are depriving that person of a job, and also depriving yourself of having a good employee!

      You probably aren’t going to “get through to him” as in, make him completely change and realize he has to pay attention to detail and be autonomous. What you have to focus on is making it clear what you need from him, and then document how he is unable to do that. And then kindly let him go, and start hiring for the position.

      And be REALLY clear with yourself and your team about what you need in the position, so you can hire the right person next time.

      1. New ED*

        Thanks, I really appreciate the thoughts. Number one is definitely the reason I am having this conversation now, my employees are frustrated and at the end of their ropes. We had a large senior staff check in earlier this week where this became clear as I think everyone had been stewing on their own, not realizing that others were having similar concerns. I also heard concerns from our outside accountant and web developer so this has to be dealt with now rather than later. I am sure number two is true is well.

        I’ve certainly spoken with him around individual incidents before, and have documented via e-mail times when he has made mistakes and what my concerns were, but I’m not sure he realizes that overall his performance is sub par. I fully recognize I am likely to have to fire him in the end, I just want to be fair in terms of making clear that his performance is poor enough that it is jeopardizing his job, and give him a final chance to improve. I’m just struggling with giving him clear benchmarks for what adequate performance looks like in an admin, support staff type role. How do we measure things like atitude, ability to figure things out on ones own, and appropriate judgment in terms of things he should come to me with and things he should handle on his own?

        1. zora*

          Shoot, might be too late for this, I hope you are coming back to check.

          But now I see which part you are struggling with. Honestly, just scroll through the category “Being the boss” (categories are on the right side menu, scroll down) And look for similar posts. Alison has given great advice in the past for how you can make “be pleasant to your coworkers” a clear benchmark. And also how to phrase “taking initiative” and “being self-directed.” Those things seem hard to phrase, but actually they are job requirements for certain jobs, not just interpersonal.

          I think Alison says it best in her columns, but the basic idea is YOU are the one who measures attitude, there isn’t an objective, mathematical measurement. But, you can say, “I need you to be pleasant to work with, and your coworkers should feel good about interactions with you.” And then YOU as the manager decide whether he is accomplishing that, because that is your job as the manager. He doesn’t get to debate what these things mean. That is part of the problem he is posing for you, you are letting him determine the terms of the discussion right now, which is not how it works.

          I hope you can read some of Alison’s other columns and that helps with your approach. And I hope you report back and let us know how it goes!

    5. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      You may not be able to fix the conversation, but afterwards, give him a written summary of the deficiencies, the standard to which he should be performing, and what he can do to fix the situation. Be concrete, so instead of saying “you need to keep your co-workers informed about timing deliverables”, say “if you cannot fulfill a request the day it is made, you need to inform your co-worker by 4:00pm “. In follow-up discussions, use the summary and don’t allow the conversation to wander. Keep it factual, specific, and clear.

      1. New ED*

        Thanks, this is helpful because I realize what I’m struggling with is the coming up with concretely what he should be doing. Figure this stuff out yourself and use better judgment about when to contact outside support doesn’t have clearly meatable targets. I don’t want the requirement to be “check with me before contacting outside support, because ultimately he needs to be more independant and less reliant on me. Any other suggestions welcome!

        1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          Sometimes it’s as simply as asking “what would I do in this situation?” Think of the problem, how you would handle it if you were in his shoes, and put that down on paper. It sounds directive (and he may feel you are treating him as if he is a child), but that is what your employee requires.

    6. pcake*

      Is it not possible that the previous executive director is responsible for some of the issues? He/she could have been a micro manager, which would make the office manager have to give up having responsibility or making decisions, and after a while, would consider that’s the way to behave. Or the previous executive director could have told the office manager that he’s doing a great job, leaving him confused about how to behave?

  34. Kramerica Industries*

    My role is a hybrid role – design and development. My official title is “Junior Developer” because I get small projects on a team of 5 Senior Developers. The trouble is that I’m the only designer for the department. I create new designs, manage projects, and quality control check external designers.

    One of my issues is that being a “Junior Developer”, the natural progression of my role is to become a Senior Developer. But I’m realizing that design is more my jam. However, because there are no other designers on site, I don’t think there’s any room for advancement. Then there’s the issue of my current pay. My pay reflects my junior status, but do I have room to argue that if I’m the only designer, I should be paid according to this value, not based off the junior categorization?

    1. Seriously?*

      That depends in a large part on how your company values your design work. If they have no other designers they may not see that as something they wish to put more resources into. How much of your time is spend on design work compared to development work? If they don’t feel that they need a “senior” designer they are unlikely to give you a raise based not the fact that you are the most senior designer they have. You may need to start job hunting if you want to progress in a different direction than your company currently allows.

    2. Reba*

      Well, designers are not often paid better than developers, so not sure if that is an angle to pursue. Are you saying that you do senior-level design work? I’d have a conversation about making sure your title and level reflect the scope and quality of your work. And do some research about how other companies structure and value these kinds of positions.

    3. give me something I can use*

      Is there enough design work that you could get promoted to Designer, not Sr. Dev? I would make that argument at the next review/promotion opportunity. Assuming you do good work as a developer, that’s great experience to take with you as you focus more on design, and the specializing (in an essential skillset your Sr. Dev don’t have or want to have?) + the initiative and general togetherness you’ll need to be the only X in a group of Ys sounds like a reasonable case for a raise to me.

    4. Techworker*

      Question for interest of how it works at other companies, no need to answer if you don’t want to!

      What’s the definition of ‘design’ here? Is it like something front-end? Or the design for what needs to be developed? (I’m just struggling to see how that wouldn’t be like, quite important and thus odd that they only need one junior person doing it!)

  35. Tigger*

    I was wondering about to have balance with a side job. I have a career job that I love and is double the pay of my old job, but with the holidays coming up and a move upcoming money is a bit tight. I have an interview tomorrow for a local liquor store to have a little extra money for gifts/ rent/ plane tickets home. However, I am a little worried about burnout. I have had 2 or 3 jobs at the time in the past but that was when I wasn’t in a career. Does anyone have any advice to keep myself sane?

    1. DivineMissL*

      Good luck, but keep in mind that a liquor store, or any retail establishment, is going to be busy around the holidays and may have extended hours (even be actually open on Thanksgiving and/or Christmas). If you are planning to work there and then go home for the holidays, make sure you work out your availability so there’s not a problem later on when the holiday comes up and they expect you to work. As the new employee, you’d probably get stuck with the worst hours.

      You didn’t mention your home situation, but you may have to resign yourself to lowering your standards for a little while – maybe the laundry will have to wait, or you do more fast food to grab something to eat between jobs, or you will miss your kid’s science fair or hanging out with your friends, because you have to work. It will be annoying, but then you see your bank balance going up and remember it’s only short-term.

      1. Tigger*

        Thanks for the advice! I am a retail veteran so I know the drill with the holiday hours :) I have already booked the first flight my home (thank you credit cards) so at this point, there is nothing I can do about that and if it is a deal breaker so be it. At my last retail job, my cousin was getting married out of the country Thanksgiving weekend and they were understanding, hopefully the new place is the same.

        My home situation is why I’m looking for a second job. I am currently living in a 500 sq ft studio apartment with my boyfriend and our cat and the lease is up on New Year’s Eve. We just got approved today for a bigger 1 bedroom (WITH WASHER DRYER IN UNIT OMGGGGGG) for only $200 more then what we pay now, but the leases will overlap by 1 and a half months so there is a slight cash flow problem on that end. The second job will be purely for making sure I have a cushion for my savings/ moving costs/ gifts/ cc bills.

        I really hope its all worth it. I might be overthinking things

        1. Kate Daniels*

          The in-unit W&D alone would be worth the price increase! ;-) But seriously, I love doing laundry now and save so much time without having to block out two hours and no longer experience the frustration of trekking down to a laundry room only to see that all of the machines are full!

          1. Kate Daniels*

            Oops, I hit enter too quickly! If your boyfriend is not also picking up an additional side job, perhaps one way to help ensure that you don’t get burnt out would be if he could pick up the bulk of the household chores, cook dinner, etc.

            1. Marion Ravenwood*

              Agreed. I’m lucky that my husband is a lot more ‘domestically inclined’ than me anyway, but I genuinely don’t know how I’d manage two jobs and looking after the house/cats if he wasn’t there to pick up a lot of the slack at home.

        2. valentine*

          Can you do most of the move yourselves, in stages, during the lease overlap, and save on movers?

      2. Nita*

        This. You need to be very clear about what hours/how many hours you’re available. Since it’s a part-time thing, they may just need you to fill gaps in coverage, but you can’t have it cutting into your regular work hours. Probably a good idea to make sure it’s not cutting into time for whatever is important to you outside of work, because that’s how burnout happens. If they don’t hire you with these limitations, keep looking for another part-time job – it’s not the end of the world if this one doesn’t end up being right.

    2. WellRed*

      Since the side gig is different from the career job, and arguably, easier etc, burnout may not wind up being an issue. My side gig, at a bookstore, was fun and totally different from my career job. I do recommend being clear with yourself about how many hours you can work each week and ideally, a set schedule each week.

      1. Tigger*

        I was always good about that when I worked for preppy clothes inc while lifeguarding and working for big time sports team. I guess I am overthinking it cause I have a career and not a job lol

    3. Kay*

      I would say to always remember re: the side gig “not my circus, not my monkeys.” Don’t get pulled into any drama in the store, or ruffle any feathers with brainstorming new ideas, etc etc. Just clock in, do a good shift’s work, and clock out. Also if you can set an expectation that when you’re not at the store they should pretend you’re dead (well, not in those words, but yeah). You’ll need to guard your off time carefully (your brain needs to rest too!) so you don’t want to worry that they’ll be calling you in randomly.

    4. Bea*

      You’ll be fine!

      I’ve done side jobs that basically equate to data entry for retail or micro businesses. The thing is to keep them only as a side thing, don’t invest emotionally and if your career needs you and the side job whines, just up and walk. It’s not worth stressing about when it’s pocket change.

      Make them live up to your expectations because they need you more than you need them. It’s a great place to be in actually!

    5. Persimmons*

      You may find that what works best for you isn’t intuitive. When I worked multiple jobs, I thought it was no big deal to have shifts 7 days a week, since many of them were so short. On Sunday, for example, I only worked the lunch rush from 11:00 to 2:00.

      But, it turned out that having to be somewhere every single day was so draining that I could barely function. I didn’t have a single day to myself for months at a stretch, and I started making stupid mistakes. One day when I was waitressing, I gave a customer change for $100 when he’d only given me a $50, and the whole shift was a waste because I had to make that up out of my tips. I went home and cried, and knew I had to make a change.

      I felt so much better by rearranging my schedule to work a few very long days in order to free up at least one day completely. I absolutely could not get by without having that one day a week to wake up whenever I wanted, lie around in rags, and veg out. I gladly worked multiple 14 hour days during the week just to get that one day off.

    6. Marion Ravenwood*

      Background: I have a ‘career’ in PR, and a side job as a writer for an entertainment website (mostly focusing on country/folk music reviews, interviews and news but also the odd bit of TV writing as well). So my experience is a little different, but hopefully I can help a bit!

      Agree with lots of what’s already been said. The main thing I’ve found is not over-committing to the side job – especially during busy periods at my main job – and also planning ahead to balance things out. For example, Side Job has a really busy week coming up at the end of this month, so I’ve booked in two WFH days at Main Job which mean I don’t have to commute in, and I’m not committing to too much extra-curricular stuff the week before or after so I’m well-rested for that busy week. I’ll also regularly let my editor at Side Job know as far in advance as possibly if I’ve got a busy period coming up in Main Job so he can allocate the work accordingly (I’m the main writer on our country section apart from him, but we do have others who can step into the breach if needed).

      And yes to planning ahead on cooking! I’ll admit that I do still occasionally fall prey to a late-night McDonald’s, but I found that making extra portions of dinner to microwave at work the next day, bringing tins of baked beans/spaghetti and bread for toast, or packing another sandwich/pasta salad that I can eat either in my office kitchen or on the way between work and gig venues (depending what it is) has been massively helpful for my health and bank balance. So if you’ve got that option then I highly recommend it.

    7. Fish Microwaver*

      I have had side gigs for all of my professional career. Sometimes the side gig is in my field, sometimes not. I have always enjoyed the different skill sets/environment /personalities etc that the part time positions affoded me and found them stimulating. I thoroughly recommend at least trying a second job.

  36. Melody Pond*

    Hello, AAM commentariat! Happy Friday!

    I used to be able to get interviews really easily, after I first came across Alison’s advice about resumes and cover letters. But recently, that hasn’t been happening – I’ve been submitting applications for junior level data analyst positions (which is a new field for me). I’m a pretty advanced Excel user, and I just started doing cool things with VBA. But maybe my technical abilities/aptitude aren’t coming across all that clearly in my own descriptions of what I’m doing?

    I’ve been thinking – maybe it would make sense to attach a couple different Excel documents as examples of what I can do (on application systems that will allow this) – to illustrate, “no, I don’t know SQL yet, but look at the advanced work I’ve done in Excel and VBA – this is why I’m confident I’ll pick up things like SQL very quickly.”

    So questions:
    1) does this seem like a decent strategy? I’m not going to go crazy, just include two top examples of my most advanced work.
    2) how the heck do you deal with scrubbing all of the personal data and company information from something you made at work? The spreadsheets don’t work the way they otherwise would, when I just replace all the names, addresses, SSNs, and ID numbers, etc., with “scrubbed”. Is there a better way to fill in fake data sets?
    3) should I write up some kind of a summary within each workbook, explaining what it’s doing? And maybe add comments throughout to explain how the different workbook components are working together and what they are accomplishing?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Seriously?*

      It may be more helpful to learn SQL. If you don’t have the required skills they are unlikely to consider you even with other advanced skills if they have applicants who already do have the skills they need. And they probably won’t look at the sample documents unless they requested them.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Note that you can download free databases that run SQL. Sqlite is a very small, fast database, but it lacks some of the features of the major database. MySQL is very much a standard in the Linux world, and Postgresql is probably the best for really big SQL data. All are free, Open Source programs available for both Windows and Linux… But if you can manage high-level SQL on a Linux machine, there’s probably work for you. Also, a basic Unix class will get you some good, useful knowledge. (Linux is a variety of Unix.)

    2. Annie Moose*

      I’ve never hired anybody, but as a developer who uses SQL all the time… I don’t know how comparable those really are. I think you could spin it as “I’m fast at picking up technical stuff, such as Excel macros and VBA”, but those things are not very much like SQL. Excel doesn’t really work like a database.

      Would you be able to start doing some SQL learning on your own time? Resources like W3Schools are free and are a good intro. And then you could outright say that you’ve starting learning SQL and have been picking it up quickly, or however you work it in.

      1. Qwerty*

        Seconding this as someone who conducts tech interviews. Excel and SQL are so different that it will look naive to try to substitute Excel/VBA experience for SQL experience, which will hurt your candidacy overall.

        If you really want to incorporate your Excel experience, there are ways of getting your Excel sheet to load data from your SQL database. VBA is one way, but there’s also a way to do it through the Data section in Excel.

        Finally, do *not* take your work spreadsheets and send them to other companies. Even if you’ve scrubbed the data, your current employer will not be happy that you took them, and it’s not going to look good to the places that you’re applying to. Taking a file home that contains people’s SSN’s might also get you into legal trouble.

        1. give me something I can use*

          Yeah, I would substitute a public dataset, write a script to generate correctly formatted but clearly fake PII (all phone numbers start with 555, etc.), and/or write a modified version of the analysis that isn’t specific to the company, possibly as a learning project if you do want to tackle SQL. Having something to build that’s already mostly spec’d and designed means you can focus on “how do I do X in this new language” without getting bogged down in “but what happens next??”

          Put more comments and documentation in work samples that live in your portfolio (which can be linked in your resume), since they have to speak for themselves; you should still have some in anything you take to an interview, though.

          If you do want to learn SQL: I’ve been using Codecademy’s free SQL courses and then practicing with SQLBolt.com recently. Anti-rec IBM’s Big Data online courses; I’d try Google Data Studio instead, if you want a hosted analytics environment, it struck me as more polished than AWS training materials the last time I looked.

          Disclaimer: I myself have not interviewed for a data analyst job, nor did I stay at a HIX last night

          1. give me something I can use*

            Augh, sorrry for the double post, I thought the browser ate it but now I see it below.

      2. Sam Foster*

        My experience is that most of the data analysts roles I see are at least SQL experts if not verging on Data Scientists. I’d focus on those skills unless I was certain the jobs you are applying for are excel-based analysis.

    3. Arielle*

      I would not include examples of work product with your application. Instead, I would include it in your accomplishments for the role.

      Also, this is not exactly the answer to the question that you asked, but are you applying for positions that list SQL as a job requirement? It’s a pretty core skill for a data analyst, even a junior one. At our company we do some internal SQL training for people who move into analyst roles from other areas, but I don’t think we’d hire even a junior analyst who didn’t come with that skill already. There are lots of free tutorials online if you’re looking to learn, and very inexpensive tutorials on sites like Udemy.

    4. give me something I can use*

      I would write a script to generate properly formatted but clearly fake data, or use a public dataset. Or write something similar that doesn’t work with PII (especially if you decide to learn SQL – reimplementing something that’s already mostly spec’d and designed lets you focus on “how do I do X” without so much “but what do I do next?”).

      If you wrote it for work, I wouldn’t send it around randomly – figure out if your company owns the rights to it! If not, you could bring it to the interview if they ask for a work sample. Comments and introductory notes are generally good practice, though more crucial for your portfolio which needs to speak for itself; if you show up to an interview with code to talk through, it can be less thorough.

      Recent SQL resources I’ve liked: Codecademy’s free SQL courses; https://sqlbolt.com/;
      I’ve done several of IBM’s Big Data online courses (including SQL) but wasn’t impressed with them. I’m considering switching to Google Data Studio or the Amazon equivalent.

      Disclaimer: I have not myself interviewed for a data analyst position, nor did I stay at a HIX last night

    5. Undine*

      I think samples will hurt rather than help, because they will come across as naive or unaware. If they haven’t asked for samples, they don’t have time to look at samples. And they don’t care about your Excel skills, because they don’t translate directly. I concur that you should try to pick up the basics of SQL & relational databases on your own or through a free or low-cost class. At the moment it sounds like you don’t even know what you don’t know.

      If you are submitting in a new field, it’s not surprising that it is hard to get interviews. It takes longer to get a break. Keep trying & good luck.

    6. epi*

      So, some weird stuff is going on in data analytics right now that I think is hurting you. (I’m an epidemiologist but I keep an eye on those professional communities for the statistical programming resources.)

      There are jobs, often titled data analyst or business analyst, where being an Excel and VBA power user is a core part of the role. In particular, there are industries– my impression is they are mostly in business/finance– that rely very heavily on Excel and third-party add-ons for Excel that make it much more powerful and basically allow you to use Excel in ways it wasn’t originally intended. There are newer official expansions to Excel too, such as PowerPivot. If you are in an industry where those things are a big deal– and they’re out there– you will already know it.

      However. Data analysts are increasingly data scientists (a trendy term I don’t think is that meaningful, except that it’s helpful to differentiate from other analyst jobs). They are analyzing– and often automating part of the analysis of– huge commercial data sets using software and languages that are very different from Excel. Common languages for analyzing and managing all that data include Python, SQL, and R. There is a lot more emphasis on statistical and other types of data-driven predictions, graphics, and fitting into a larger workflow that includes people like developers, data architects, administrators. If you are inadvertently applying to jobs in that field– and since titles can be idiosyncratic and job descriptions can be unclear, you probably are– Excel skills are totally irrelevant to that. Even as a humble applied statistician who never has to automate anything and rarely even has to share my code, I *never* use Excel for anything but a convenient way to look over my data or format a table. It’s just not an appropriate tool for larger scale data analysis, to the point that it doesn’t even give you cred that you *could* pick up a more appropriate language, it actually makes you sound like a worse candidate. The environments are just totally different.

      If you see yourself as more of a business analyst, even just for now, I hope this helps you weed out the latter type of job for which you aren’t currently qualified. There is also a ton of buzz about data science out in the world right now, reading about the field might help you understand what you are and aren’t looking for in a job description. For business analyst type career paths, my sense (from subscribing to a lot of analyst type job alerts) is you may want to look at Tableau in addition to SQL. If you think more of a data scientist direction for you, it’s likely you will want some formal training because there are both stats and computer science skills involved in addition to programming.

      If you’re interested, Python and R are free and there are free database platforms that use SQL. Tableau is free to students, so definitely take advantage of the one year free license they offer if you take classes at a college. For your portfolio, you will probably want to use some of these learning projects or a passion project of some kind. Check out data.gov and see if your state or city has an open data portal. These are great sources of free, public, real (i.e. dirty and undocumented) data on any topic your heart could desire.

      I hope this helps you! This is a super confusing time to be interested in analytics careers because they are changing fast right now.

    7. marmalade*

      I work in tech and use SQL frequently in my job.

      Like the others, I don’t think your strategy is sound. Firstly, if they haven’t asked for samples, they probably don’t care about them. Secondly, there is a wiiiide gulf between Excel macros/VBA and SQL – they are really not very similar technologies. If you refer to them as comparable, then it looks like you don’t really understand what each is and what problem they are trying to solve. Like someone else said, it’s a comparison that makes you look naive.
      To be blunt, tech people don’t care about Excel/VBA. I recommend you to learn SQL.

    8. AshK434*

      I wouldn’t submit anything because most employers have their own exercises they’ll ask you to do if they’re interested.

      Analyst positions are very competitive and there’s always more qualified candidates applying to lower level positions. I would learn SQL, Python or R and and a data visualization tool like Tableau. That would really make you stand out and more competitive.

    9. valentine*

      I entered only as many lines as needed to show everything it did, with fictional characters and true-to-verse data, so the SSNs would have at least the correct digits for the state of issuance. If it’s massive, you might enter, a couple lines under the last filled row, in the name field, “original continued for x rows”.

  37. Kali*

    I got my first promotion this week! I’ve gone from being a student ambassador – taking applicants on tours, delivering them to their interview, feeding their parents cakes – to being a senior ambassador, so now I’m telling other people to do the tours, making sure the professors are on time for their interviews, and organising the cake. I worked for ten years before uni and never got promoted before, so it’s pretty exciting. I’m also mentoring first years while doing my own work.

    One thing’s been bugging me this week though. Are there good reasons why people are sending me images of their screens taken from their phones? Or is it just that the print screen button is surprisingly obscure? I don’t want to come across as patronising if people know it exists but just prefer to take photos with their phones, but I also don’t want people to miss out on the joy of taking screenshots.

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Ha! That is bizarre and I have never had someone send me a cell-phone photo of a computer screen. So it has all the waves and lines and pixels? Nah–tell them to teach themselves to print screen or use the snipper tool. Crazytown.

      1. Kali*

        Yep. It’s happened on a few group projects, and it’s been happening now with my mentoring partner and the other seniors. The one reason I can think of is that maybe they don’t realise whatsapp can be used on the computer? But then, a lot of these are through things like facebook and email…

    2. Anon's Last Day*

      As someone that works in a tech-adjacent field, in my experience, people mostly do not know how to take screenshots on their computers. You can always come up with a friendly way to ask for them moving forward (if that applies here)– it’s not patronizing if it makes it easier for you to do your job. Just a simple “Thanks for sending that photo, for future reference, can you use the print screen feature to send a screenshot instead? It makes it easier for me to see the contents of your screen” if they don’t know how they’ll follow up!

    3. Notthemomma*

      I’ve had that happen with clients who don’t know how to do a print screen- which depending on the level of detail you need to see can be too small to use. You may want to write a quick paragraph on this to find Snip It which is Windows Standard (98.37% sure) and ask to resend.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Snipping Tool, I think you mean. I believe it showed up in Windows 7 first, but has been standard ever since. And it’s quite easy to use!

    4. ItsOnlyMe*

      My teen does this all the time, it drives me bonkers. he says he likes to do it that was as he has the photo saved on his phone for reference and he finds it quicker.

      Me…I love the Snipping Tool. Small feature that packs a punch :)

    5. LQ*

      Our enterprise architect did this to me once (the photo thing) which was crazy because he took the photo with his personal phone, emailed it from his personal email to his work email then forwarded me the work email.

      Yes, I did judge the heck out of him as the makes an ungodly amount of money enterprise architect to me the cheap knows nothing business person when I showed him how to use the snipping tool.

  38. Phoenix Programmer*

    I manage interns from a specific program at our local University. This is an unpaid school credit internship during the semester.

    The university intern coordinator has gotten more involved on the most recent cohort and set up strict timelines. Now instead of having the intern work odd jobs for me, orient, and try several mini projects for hours 1-70 then do an intensive hands on project from hours 71-135 the coordinator wants the project work to start no later than hour 24 preferably by 12.

    I like having students. But teaching them the skills for this project and hand holding as they get the project done is a lot of work. Previously I felt the project part of managing these students was at least subsidized a bit by the important but simple and boring tasks part.

    Now if the program is demanding the project be the vast majority of their time on site I am not sure I want to take on more students.

    Do I reach out to the coordinator and let her know the new set up is untenable for us? Or do I simply decline to take future students. The intern coordinator set up this major and program so it’s near and dear to her. She is well liked at my employer and I would hate to upset her. On the other hand I want her students to have opportunities for their internship. Help!

    1. Anon's Last Day*

      So I’ve been in your shoes, in a way. If the new requirements for the interns are going to seriously hamper your ability to do your job speak up now and speak up clearly! I made the mistake of being too timid about changes to our intern program and it ended up being terrible for me and the interns– I saw it coming and was trying to be accommodating to others and it did not work out. People really don’t understand how time-consuming it is to lead interns through major projects. I had to lay out how many hours a week I was dedicating to working with them before my boss understood why I was pushing back.

      1. Anon's Last Day*

        Forgot to add: If you push back and offer to compromise (if you’re open to it) you might be able to find a middle ground that is less upsetting to everyone. The difference between 12 hours in and 70 hours in is VAST.

    2. Tara S.*

      I feel like you should let her know your issue with the new setup. It’s valuable feedback! She/her org may have done the redesign without fully thinking through how it would affect the businesses involved with the program. Be honest about your reservations, ask if there’s any room for adjustment to better match your business needs.

    3. Kes*

      I think it’s worth letting them know that you won’t be able to continue taking students under the new setup. It’s valuable feedback for them, although it may or may not change anything – from your perspective, the odd jobs/gruntwork is what makes it worth it, but they want to maximize the time spent gaining relevant experience which is the point for them.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Just tell her no, that’s not how it is going to work. She can decide if she wants to continue the program

  39. Folklorist*

    It’s time for your I’m-totally-procrastinating-by-writing-this ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!! Go and do something that you’ve been putting off and then come back here and brag about it!

    I have a HUGE article due for work before I go on vacation next week, and it’s…erm…not close to done. So, yeah. Good luck everyone!

  40. Red Reader*

    I don’t know if I exactly have a question, but I’ve been pondering of late – I work in an extremely woman-dominated career field. Like, in the team of 26 that I help manage, we have two men, and otherwise, the next man in my direct line of succession on the org chart in either direction is six levels up. The next woman who has a male report at all is four levels up. I haven’t had a male coworker at my level that I regularly had to interact with, or a male supervisor, in fifteen years. It’s an interesting lens to be looking through when discussions about sexism in the workplace come up.

    1. Reba*

      I love my mostly-female-dominated field. But I do reflect from time to time about how the fact that men have fled probably means that its value to society is considered low.

      1. Tedious Cat*

        Yeah, I feel like my always working in predominantly female fields has had the plus of not being sexually harassed and the minus of never being paid very much.

      2. Tedious Cat*

        I’ve always worked in predominantly female fields. The plus is I haven’t had to deal with sexual harassment. The minus is I’ve never made much money.

    2. KatieKate*

      I have this on my team too, but I view it as a negative. My peers (minus one) are women, my boss is a woman, and her boss is a woman. Most of the people on my boss’s level are women and the level about her are about 70/30 women/men. But above that–all men. And I’ve found that especially in my corner of nonprofits, men are viewed as unicorns because there are so many women and valued above women. It’s frustrating.

      1. Kay*

        I was just thinking this! My industry is largely women, but the “glass elevator” issue for men is very real. So often they get catapulted up the ranks and then sit at the very top, where no women seem able to break in despite there being endless numbers of extremely qualified candidates for those top level jobs.

        To Red Reader, I would say if you really value the opportunities in your workplace for women, maybe also make sure that they’re there for more than just white women. My industry (again, also largely dominated by women) has some serious problems with racial diversity, so it can be really valuable when you feel well placed to look around and see who isn’t so lucky.

        1. Kj*

          Yep. My field over-values men in the name of gender balance, so men end up getting promotions at a higher rate. We always hired our male interns. Femalw interns had about a 30% chance of being hired. Men were half the managers, despite being less than 10% of the lower level workforce. And everyone in my field has similar degrees, so it wasn’t that.

          1. Reba*

            Oh yeah, I have seen a similar dynamic in arts organizations, where there are lots more women who want to participate than men.

            OTOH I recently read about a male dancer taking on some traditionally female corps de ballet parts.

      2. Marion Ravenwood*

        Where I work has this as well – approximately 70% of the workforce is female, including in my own team, but only two of our executive team are women. And they’re in communications and HR, ie the ‘feminised’ departments. (We do have a female CEO though, which is not that uncommon in this sector, but still.)

    3. dear liza dear liza*

      I’m a librarian. Something like 86% of our field is female. And yet, sexism is a constant issue. I think some of it is because libraries reside in larger organizations (a city or county system, or a school system, or a campus) which tend to be patriarchal in nature. And then there’s the fact that Melvil Dewey, the ‘father of libraries’ was a terrible, terrible man who fought for women to be hired because they would be cheaper and easier to control, and whose sexual harassment of women was so egregious he was kicked out of the ALA.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        I still recall a male reference librarian complaining about the “skirtocracy”. His boss was female, but the library director and more than half the associate directors were male.

    4. Anonforthisanswer*

      I work at an office in a digital field that is normally more evenly split, but our team is 9 women and 1 man. The pay is actually very good. We have recently started to come to terms with the fact that we are exhibiting biases towards female candidates because of “culture fit,” which became more obvious in a recent bout of personality testing. We are now having to actively work to overcome our natural biases to bond with women during interviews, etc. just like any other clustered group in power would have to check bias. Not saying by any means that our team weren’t the best hiring choices (it’s a killer group), just making sure that we didn’t decide we didn’t like someone’s “personality” as much even though they were also qualified for position.

      I think you bring up a really good point that no one immune to naturally wanting to hire people they “click with” and recognizing that it can have implications on staff diversity.

      1. Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle*

        A while back I was tasked with vetting resumes for my division, and realized that I was giving a little more weight to people who majored in liberal arts. Even though it turned out that group was diverse in backgrounds (and all were successful hires), who knows how the science/business majors would’ve fared.
        Astonishingly, the employee cafeteria never had the daily arts/books/culture discussions that I had dreamed of.

    6. Bluebell*

      Same for me. In fact it’s a joke in my profession that you can accomplish a lot of networking in the ladies room at most conferences!

  41. CatCat*

    Fictional bosses you would *like* to work for?

    For me, it’s Sister Julienne of “Call the Midwife.” I think she does so well and that seems like a particular challenge when she lives with the nurses she supervises. She’s kind, knows which battles are worth fighting, firmly calls out things that need calling out yet in a professional way. She is not perfect, but she takes responsibility for her mistakes. She just seems like a boss role model!

    1. Tigger*

      Tom Kirkman from Designated Survivor for all the same reasons! Also he is very level headed, takes into account how his decisions will affect everyone (even the little guys), and is not afraid to get his hands dirty.

    2. strawberries and raspberries*

      If I could Westworld into any TV universe, it would be Call The Midwife. In addition to Sister Julienne being an incredible boss and everyone being so mutually supportive but still respecting each other’s boundaries, Poplar is community organizing heaven.

        1. Doug Judy*

          He’s is your mentor. :)

          I had a very Leslie like professor in grand school. Her classes were amazing but mentally exhausting. But since I can be a bit of an April, I sometimes need that type to push me out of my comfort zone.

    7. Tedious Cat*

      Captain Picard and Captain Sisko. Purely on performance I would give Picard the edge as the better boss — but that doesn’t take into account the fact that Sisko’s job is much harder.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Fully support working for/with Captain Picard.

        You’d never have to worry about him not having your back.

    9. Roja*

      Sister Julienne would be great! Also Barnaby from Midsomer Murders or Peter Burke from White Collar. Competent, fair… what else can you ask for?

    10. She who lurks*

      DI Viv Deering from No Offence.

      She knows how to bring out the best in each member of her team (while not being blind to their weaknesses), and is willing to go to bat for them with her superiors.

    14. Butter Makes Things Better*

      Love this! Isaac Jaffe on Sports Night or Tami Taylor after she became Dean of Admissions at Braemore College. Or admin for Keith and Veronica Mars. Or Mr. Peanutbutter’s assistant (helping him get his party favors made would be worth the price of admission remove the parentheses thanks).

  42. Sabine the Very Mean*

    I started a new job and I’m looking to change my persona–I would like to be more direct, less adverse to confrontation, and less available for socializing and sharing of personal information. My last team was very close, very intimate, and very much in each other’s business. I would like to be more “work-only”. Any suggestions?

    1. Anon's Last Day*

      You can definitely work on both “more direct” and “work only” in one shot by practicing responses to personal questions that you get that you don’t want to talk about. I find it’s all about tone. There are a lot of questions Alison has answered where she gives helpful scripts on how to respond to overly personal questions.

      One that springs to mind that I get a lot is the “Did you do anything fun this weekend?” Sometimes I don’t mind sharing a bland detail or two, but I am an avid user of “Not much, how about you?” Let them do the sharing!

    2. Celeste*

      You can be friendly enough to get along at work, and still keep your personal life private. Decide what the minimum amount of information is that you will share, and keep it vague. After that, discourage questions with deflection back to the other person. As most people’s favorite topic is themselves, this can work well. Then turn the topic back to work. For the person who just really wants to delve, you could deflect by saying there really isn’t much to tell, you don’t want to bore them with the details, and go up to saying it’s not something you really discuss. If you keep your face and tone soft, it will surely work. Regarding socializing, all you have to do is politely decline and with them a nice time. If they keep up, just say that socializing is not your jam, but thanks for the offer.

    3. Tara S.*

      Don’t offer up personal stories unless directly asked. Keep your responses to personal questions short. Them: “How was your weekend?” You: “Fine, how about you?” Them: “Oh it was good. Did you do anything fun?” You: “No, pretty quiet. [leave or bring up work topic]” or “Yeah, went up to the mountains, the foliage is really pretty right now. How about you?” I find this approach keeps thing professional without seeming weird.

      For the directness, I practice with how I write emails, with the idea that it will flow over into how I speak. Emails are a great way to practice because you can read over them and edit. Try to take out filler words. Think about what you actually need and decide whether context is necessary (you can always provide it later if asked). My instinct is often to tell a person why I need X, but sometimes all they need is “X needs to get done.” Trial and error! You don’t need to take all filler words out (sometimes the softening is polite) but try and think actively about whether you’re using more words than necessary. Good luck!

  43. nani1978*

    oh gosh, I’m already over 100 comments in. No time like the present, I guess!
    (synopsis: Looking for tips on creating and administering a PIP)

    I am the manager in what has been an office of just two for almost two years now (at its peak, well before I was manager, we were an office of six). When my previous employee left, I was solo for two months; it was a horrendous time for me, and I could go way off course what I am trying to ask here in describing it. However, hooray, I was able to hire a new employee! Although it was a heavy burden to be the sole trainer and do everything else, it’s been almost 18 months since my employee started, and it is good to have another person in the office and be able to delegate tasks. I do wish ze had coworkers to shoot the breeze with, commiserate about working with me, and to take some stuff on their plate or provide other ideas for how to accomplish tasks and improve our work processes.

    Ze has many strong points, and is overall a great worker; very strong with the primary function of the job (per the title) and well-liked by our clients. I have done my best to address problems as they arise, but we communicate poorly, and ze is weakest in the details of maintaining our office functions. I have tried many ways to get my points across and to solicit feedback on how ze learns best, but as I looked back this week after another occasion where my explicit instructions were completely ignored and then excused (busy morning, etc. etc.), I realized that we’ve been having the same issues for almost a year. We’ve set up weekly or biweekly meetings to address this, and I have written up the content of our convos for acknowledgment, but they’re always taken as starting points for a litany of complaints, some extremely off-topic. I have started to have my boss sit in on these meetings to provide feedback and context and to see if I am hearing what I am hearing, because it has started to feel like we have meetings with separate conversations and nobody is going to be convinced of anything. Ze feels I don’t trust them and that I am looking for problems, but everywhere I look, there is incorrect info and much of it is a repeat of a same kind of mistake. Some of it is tiny details, but our job is pretty heavy on tiny details.

    Thus, this week, I decided to put ze on a PIP, and it will be explained next week. I am worried this will further kill ze’s morale (a 2% raise was viewed as “insulting,” even though that was an effort on my and my boss’ part to reflect the tremendous amount of work ze did the first year, and nobody else in the entire company got more than 1.52%). I am hoping that their work is improved and am not looking at this as a starting point to firing ze, but honestly, part of that is just for my own sanity. I cannot go through another month or more of solo work. It was entirely too personally costly last time.

    TL;DR:… do you have any tips on creating and administering a PIP, and doing so positively? A lot of my issue with the lack of improvement is that my solutions haven’t worked for their work style, and I think it needs to be their personal responsibility to create solutions, but everything I have seen around here re PIP means a *ton* of work for the manager to enumerate everything and create action plans. How do I do this without losing my cool? I want to be factual and demonstrative that lack of substantive action results in consequences, but I feel this personally very keenly as a failure on my part and I am very worried that it’ll have the opposite effect of spurring improvement and instead spur a resignation letter.

    Thank you in advance for your help!!

    1. AliceW*

      If she was insulted by a 2% raise then a PIP will probably send her out the door. I would only invest a significant effort in administering the PIP if Ze is really worth keeping and you think he/she will stick around. Personally, if any of my direct reports were placed on a PIP it would be because they were not worth keeping on and it would be a heads up for them to look for a new job. I think PIPs mostly work when you are talking about entry level or inexperienced employees. Keeping mediocre employees on can really hurt you and cause you to incur a lot more work in some organizations. If someone cannot manage to improve based on the metrics set out for them and find ways to demonstrate that improvement they may be more of a burden than a help to you in the long run. If you think you failed in some part to help Ze succeed, just make a mental note to improve upon your management with their replacement. If Ze is worth saving, you need to set out clear metrics and expectations and encourage their success. You are not supposed to do all the heavy lifting- you are there to provide guidance. It will take more effort on your part in the short term, but if Ze if worth saving the effort will eventually pay off when they can help lessen your workload.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Why bother with a PIP? You are just dragging things out, which is painful for all concerned. You need to be decisive and let the employee go. Then focus your energies on hiring someone who is a better fit.

      1. valentine*

        Are you working from the position that you need or want to keep them? Because there’s nothing wrong with seeing someone just doesn’t fit and planning their exit. If you do, don’t let them set the timeline, such as waiting for them to get a new job. The 2% seems at odds with the problems. It may be worth reflecting whether it was just for the quantity and whether the quality was what it should’ve been.

    3. Going On Anon*

      The best advice I ever got with regards to creating a PIP was, irritatingly, based in an acronym: SMART. The idea is to give your employee goals that are Simple, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant, and Time-bound.

      I’ve had to administer a PIP before, and I approached it from a perspective of “Look, I want you to be successful at this job. I want to give you all the tools you need to flourish here, and that means telling you what you’re doing well and not being afraid to tell you what you’re not doing well. I don’t want to fire you – I want to keep you here. But in order to do that, I need you to get better at these things…” We then went through a summary of the overall issues I was having with his work, and broke that down into an action plan. I think part of the success I had with this was that I had suggestions on how he could improve, based on the SMART thing above – but I also sought his input. “I need you to complete all of your work before you start browsing the internet. How do I support you in making sure that happens? Would it help if you checked in with me to see if there were any additional tasks you needed to do, or any work you missed, before you take some downtime? I’d like to see this change within two weeks; does that seem like a reasonable timeline to you?”

      I find it’s really helpful to frame it as “I’m here to help you do your job,” rather than “I’m here to tell you what to do.” It also helps to focus on the results you need, rather than the behavior to be changed. “You’re making too many mistakes” will put someone on the defensive; “I need these documents to be error-free before they’re submitted” is an objective goal. Then the conversation can be “How do we make sure the documents are error-free?” which is a problem to be solved together, rather than a referendum on who they are as a person or an employee.

      All that being said – ze may decide that what you’re asking them to do is just too high a price to pay, or that you’re asking too much of them (even if you’re not), or that keeping the job is not worth the effort of improving their work. You have to be prepared for the fact that they might resign anyway, or that even if they do agree to the conditions of the PIP they’ll fail to meet it and ultimately you will have to fire them anyway. I know you said that you can’t do another month of solo work; I would strongly recommend speaking to your boss in advance and working out a plan for how to handle/reduce your workload if this employee is no longer there.

      Speaking from experience, you will do yourself no favors at all if you keep around a bad – or even mediocre – employee out of fear of having to do the work on your own.

    4. Penguin*

      I can’t help with positive PIP implementation, so please feel free to ignore me completely if that’s all you’re interested in. That said, a few things did occur to me:
      It sounds like your employee’s expectations (re: compensation, accountability, and even behavior) are out of line with yours. Perhaps you need to address that?
      –If a 2% raise is a problem (based on posts here that does sound astonishingly low… but if it’s normal for your industry/location, ignore me) then explicitly saying “this is the raise I offered you because of [insert reasons here]; it’s well within range for annual raises for our industry” [assuming it is] “which typically run from x to y. It is also the highest raise for all company employees this year.” might help. (i.e. it tells zer that ze will have to change companies/industries/locations if this level of raise is unacceptable)
      –If excuses will not be tolerated and your specific instructions must be followed (which seems like it SHOULD be obvious, but may not be to zer for some reason… or maybe ze was taking your instructions as non-binding suggestions?), say that. e.g. “When I tell you that I need you to do X, Y, and Z, you need to actually do so. That is an explicit instruction, and I need you to follow it. If there is some reason you cannot, I need you to come to me so we can discuss that before you act.”
      –If conversations just devolve into complaints, you may have to explicitly say “Derailing these conversations with a litany of complaints is unacceptable. Here is our procedure” [and outline it for zer] “for dealing with grievances; I need you to follow it. At the moment, these are the topics we are discussing” and continue on with the conversation.
      –Speaking as someone who knows what it’s like to be in a supervisor/employee relationship where “we communicate poorly” it is also possible (and I mean this as constructively as possible!) that in order to improve the communication to the level you require, you may have to increase the amount of back-and-forth conversation between you and zer. For example, if you’re currently asking “do you understand” and ze says “yes” and that’s it, you may have to instead ask zer to tell you what zer detailed understanding is of tasks you set zer, going back and forth until you are both confident that each understands exactly is required. It may feel very “basic” to do that, but it might be the only way to get communication to flow properly.

      1. AliceBD*

        I view the 2% raise as great, especially if it is higher than anyone else got. I’ve been working 7 years full time and only 2 of those years have included any company-wide pay increase. That’s across 3 different companies. (My income is up substantially but that is from switching companies and promotions.)

    5. Close Bracket*

      Well, 2% is a pretty shitty raise, considering that’s not even cost of living. If that’s what’s in the budget, that’s what’s in the budget, but don’t try to convince zir that it’s a good raise. To be clear, 1.5% is even shittier, but that doesn’t make 2% good.

      Have you spelled out that if things don’t improve, the next step is a PIP? I would spell that out. Explicitly say that you’ve been working together for a year, and you are still seeing repeats of the same mistakes. If you don’t see improvement over the next week, the next step will be a PIP. The only way to avoid a PIP is to make consistent progress toward lowering errors. Pick a goal, say, you always produce document X and document Y in a week, and say these documents need to be error free this week. Make clear that the overall error rate needs to go down, but you are starting with small goals and building up to that. It’s almost like a mini-PIP, just less work.

      Let zir come up with zir own plan, just give them a goal. If they can produce X and Y with no errors, and no increase in errors in other things, then the following week, expand to W and Z. Etc. If they can keep up consistent improvement for, I don’t know, a month, six weeks, you can take the PIP off the table.

  44. Ethical Quandary*

    Does anyone have any high-level advice for improving one’s work ethic (when it’s already decent, but definitely has room for improvement)? I’ve always been a top performer in my jobs. My current boss has relayed that I am definitely one of the top performers in our office; however, he believes I’m nowhere near living up to my full potential. I am working with a therapist (on various issues) who has also provided feedback that although I seem to be a “good” worker, I am sabotaging my long-term success by not having an excellent work ethic and by coasting at times when I should be digging in more. The main issue is that my job tends to require very long hours, and I end up running out of steam by around Thursday afternoon and have trouble focusing for the rest of the week. (I have been screened for ADHD, depression, and other conditions and don’t have any diagnoses along those lines to explain my lack of sustained focus.) I want to be better than this – help?

    1. Quill*

      Honestly, the whole “running out of steam” thing seems fairly normal for a job with long hours. When you’re commuting, doing long hours, and doing all your own work of living (chores, bills, cooking, etc,) you’re running close to burnout even if you love what you do.

      Is there any way you can push back on the long hours, have some remote days where you don’t have to commute, or take a three day weekend to get some actual rest? (You don’t have to go anywhere to take a long weekend… just make sure to do something enjoyable on top of whatever tasks you have lined up at home.)

    2. Anon's Last Day*

      So, if long hours are just something that you have to put up with as part of your industry this is not helpful advice, but…

      … I tried for years to brush up my work ethic. Tried every productivity hack, every freezer meal trick to reduce time spent on chores during the few hours I was home, every sleep hack. I was perfectly healthy in terms of my mental and physical health. My boss kept telling me I needed to do more and more and I kept trying my best to meet the new goals. I was always told I was just *so close* to being the BEST if I could do a little more. And then a few things happened at work that caused me to realize my issue was that the expectations being put on me were unreasonable to begin with. I was so eager to please I missed the forest for the trees.

      I only point that out because it was a HUGE part of my issue that I was getting to the end of the week and I just couldn’t motivate myself to keep pushing after working four 12-hour days in a row, so I felt like I was reading about my past self a little bit!

    3. Reba*

      I mean, do you need to give the MOST you could POSSIBLY give all the time? Like, is that actually a goal you want to have, or is being pretty darn great and still having brain cells left on the weekend a good way to be? What is your potential for, is it to be poured into work or are there other things in your life that satisfy you?

      To me–having only this very brief sketch–the situation does not sound particularly dire. You run out of steam “for the rest of the week” — uh, that being ONE day, Friday. You have always been a top performer, yet you are “sabotaging” your career — doesn’t seem to add up.

      You don’t need a diagnosis to explain “I work kinda too much and I get tired.”

      Could you talk to your boss about doing less-long hours that might make things more sustainable for you.

    4. AnotherKate*

      This might not be a popular response but it sounds to me more like your work wants to take advantage of you and less like you’re not a hard enough worker.

      You’re one of the top performers, yet the boss wants more? You work very long hours, then feel tired on Thursday because you’re a human? These are not really problems in my book.

      If anything, it seems like you have more of an optics problem than a bad work ethic problem. If your boss perceives that you’re not trying very hard, that may color their response to your overall “work ethic”–this could be anything from not seeming engaged enough to not performing stress the same way other people do. To be clear, if it’s a matter of company culture to perform how stressed out you are during the “times when [you] should be digging in more,” that’s dysfunctional, but I still think you can work with it. Perhaps worth talking to your boss about particular reasons why they think you’re not living up to your potential–if it comes out that they don’t see you running around like a chicken with your head cut off, you might be able to calm them down by saying “I definitely feel the pressure during our busy times, but I’ve found my work suffers least when I stay calm. Are you still happy with my work? If so, hopefully it’s working!”

      Tl;dr, it seems like your workplace wants you to give everything of yourself to the job, even when you’re already a top performer. I don’t think that’s a healthy thing to require.

    5. Bea*

      They’re telling you that despite being a high performer…you’re lacking because long hours zap you by Thursday afternoon?! No. This isn’t you. It’s them.

      I’ve been praised for my work ethic (it’s so weird to me…it’s like praising me for flushing the toilet…) so I’m going to just dig on in and say they’re asking for you to be more than is acceptable.

      First rule of work ethic. Show up. Second rule, care about your work and its quality. You are not an unlimited tap of energy and running on steam can’t be fixed unless you want to start running on drugs to eliminate your natural need for rest!

    7. Marthooh*

      Why is your therapist trying to evaluate your “long-term success” among the other issues? Was this someone recommended by your boss, by any chance? It seems so bizarre that a mental-health professional would say, in effect, “If your long hours at work are wearing you out before the end of the week, then you should work much harder!”

    8. Kay*

      I agree with the rest, you seem to have a very strong work ethic! I don’t think your therapist is guiding you correctly here, but I wonder if perhaps it’s because they just have your own perception to go off of? My one tip might be counter intuitive, but it’s to take more breaks. It’s better to be working 6 hours at a high level of skill and performance than to work 8 dragging your feet because you really needed to take a break, reset, and rest your brain a couple of hours in. Map out when you’re most productive and mentally assume you’ll get big, creative tasks done then. Poke around at email in your “less productive” hours. Good luck!

    9. LilySparrow*

      I agree with others’ points about reasonableness.

      But if the workload is endemic to the industry, or otherwise “reasonable” in context, are there any adjustments you can make to match your workflow to your energy levels?

      Do you have to perform the same duties every day, or are you fielding incoming demands at a constant rate all week?

      If not, and you have some control in setting your daily priorities, try creating a rhythm to your day and week that alternates different types of work or mental demands. Or you could schedule less-demanding tasks on Friday, when you know you have less focus.

      A personal example is that I engage best with new projects or tasks that require deep concentration in the early morning, but I find talking to people very draining.

      Midmorning I deal better with phone calls or meetings. Early afternoon is good for emails. And by later in the afternoon, I’m kind of brain dead, so that’s when I do repetitive grunt work or things that require me to get up and move around – I might go drop stuff off for a colleague, or catch up on filing, or go collect reference material for tomorrow.

      Mixing it up according to my natural energy cycle lets me stay productive in some way for a lot more of my hours.

    10. Whatsinaname*

      You need a new job and a new therapist. Your boss’s expectations are totally unreasonable. If you’re working long hours throughout the week and potentially on the weekends it’s no wonder that you’re exhausted. There are jobs out there that actually don’t require overtime or very little. Time to start looking for one and also time to stop flaggelating yourself.

    11. Quandong*

      It sounds to me as though you don’t have a problem with your ‘work ethic’ at all. Actually, you sound like a person who gets tired and fatigued as a result of their job, just like everyone I know.

      People who talk about ‘living up to full potential’ get a lot of side eye from me. In my life, the people uttering such a phrase have been trying to override my boundaries.

      It’s weird to me that your therapist thinks you don’t have an excellent work ethic. Actually I would suggest that you consider finding a therapist who is supportive and who doesn’t add to your burden of feeling like something is wrong with you.

      Best wishes.

  45. eaviva*

    I posted 2 weeks ago about this, but it was late and I didn’t get a lot of replies, so I’m trying again.

    Does anyone have advice for getting into technical writing when you don’t have an English/ journalism/writing degree? I graduated about a year ago with a bachelors in a field that really requires a PHD, and have been trying to figure things out since then. I’ve almost completely decided that I want to go into technical writing, and I’m slowly getting more involved in writing workflow documentation for my team, but is there anything else I can do? If the advice is to take classes, what classes would you suggest and where would you suggest I look for them? Is there a certification I can get? I’ve been trying to read up on this, but I haven’t seen a lot. Thank you!

    1. The Grammarian*

      There is a certification, but it’s better to learn commonly used software and perhaps build a portfolio of sample docs. Learn Word and PowerPoint thoroughly; familiarize yourself with Visio and building flowcharts and diagrams. Captivate is another one (you are less likely to have this on your computer). Some jobs require XML/XML editor knowledge. Also, look at the technical writer job postings in your area to see what software knowledge they’re including in the job descriptions.

    2. Tara S.*

      The Society for Technical Communication (STC) has some resources and classes (I’ve never taken the classes, not sure of their value), they might be a good start to look into different tech writing roles. I know they have a magazine that you can sometimes access (maybe at a library??) that has stories about how people got into the business and different aspects of the industry. Not having a writing degree is absolutely fine, people come to technical writing from all areas. Building experience where you are is a great way to transition. Hiring managers will be more excited about hands-on tech writing work than an English BA. Best of luck!

      (Disclaimer, I used to work for STC, but I have met people in the wild who find them a good resource, so…)

    3. Fabulous*

      Try looking into Instructional Design or something similar. It’s not exactly technical writing, but in the same wheelhouse.

    4. OhGee*

      You could build experience by volunteering to write documentation for a free/open source software project or other technical-but-heavily-volunteer driven project.

    5. Tech Writers*

      What is your degree in? My company’s tech writers need STEM backgrounds, so you might actually be in better shape than someone with a BA. A software tech writer or a pharma tech writer would never get hired with only an English degree. Also, do you by chance live near DC and have a clearance? Because DoD and military-adjacent tech writers make BANK.

      1. eaviva*

        I have a BA in music, concentrating on ethnomusicology (I thought I wanted to go into academia when I started), so I think I’m out of luck on that front, unfortunately.

    6. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      I transitioned into technical writing after getting a phd in art history (I do also have a BA in English). You’ve gotten some good suggestions here. I’d suggest connecting with your local STC chapter if you have one; some offer mentorships that are targeted at those in your position. Keep producing work samples and build up a portfolio. If you can, try to do some paid freelance or temp work (I got my current job after getting experience in a short temp role). You may run into places that want a more technical/STEM background, but that’s by no means true for all tech writing jobs.

  46. Shark Whisperer*

    Does anyone have any advice for staying focused on long phone meetings? I am not an auditory learner at all, but I recently joined a team that is spread out throughout the country so there are a lot of phone meetings.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Taking notes on paper instead of a computer will help remove the temptation to flip over to another window to “just check your email quickly” etc.

    2. Sapphire*

      I take notes if I’m getting distracted during a meeting or on a conference call, becausees me something to focus on that’s not playing around on my phone.

    3. eaviva*

      I don’t know if it’s a direct equivalent, but I’m also not an auditory learner and my strategy for surviving lectures in college was very active note-taking. Writing down everything made me engage with the content and actually process it in a way that I could remember.

    4. Fabulous*

      I am also not an auditory learner, but I am also a horrible note-taker so I couldn’t do the above. Are there generally visual presentations with the meetings, PowerPoints or whatnot? What I try to do is remain engaged in the conversation so I’m less likely to zone out. It also helps me to multi-task oddly enough. Because I’m not trying to focus 100% on listening (which is near impossible for me) I’m also less likely to zone out because I’m constantly switching my visual focus.

    5. ZSD*

      Move away from your computer screen if you can, so that there are fewer tempting distractions.
      Also, when I was in a previous position with lots of conference calls, when I first started, they were boring, and I got distracted easily. Once I learned more about the work, though, I became more interested in the updates that were shared on the meetings, and paying attention became easier. So you might find this becoming easier as you get more integrated into the team.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I have a headset and I leave my desk (where there are too many distractions) and move to a chair where I look out the window IF I need to be paying attention. That said, there are many calls where it is understood that folks will be multi-tasking, and depending on the organization, the call, your role etc., on rare occasions saying “you caught me multi-tasking, what was the question?” would be fine. But you have to know that that is okay and I wouldn’t do it as a new team member.

    7. Earthwalker*

      I know this will sound strange but I found that solitaire helps. It’s mindless enough that it doesn’t distract me from the meeting, but it’s something to keep my hands busy when the meeting gets so boring that I would otherwise be tempted to just take a second to check email or do something else that would really take my mind away from the proceedings.

    8. Texan At Heart*

      I walk while I am on calls, if at all possible. I can focus much better while I’m moving, and there’s little to no opportunity for anything to distract me. Outside works best for me, but I’ll even walk around the office or do some stretching if a real walk isn’t an option.

  47. Pineapple Incident*

    I’ve been “promoted” at work, which sounds good and comes with a raise, but I’m basically being made the support for the most notoriously worst group in the division, with the caveat that I have to keep doing a bunch of lower level duties for this group instead of having the authority this position usually comes with on higher-level matters. It’s going to be a lot more work. Additionally, I’ll be sharing an office at some point soon with the woman currently managing this group, who is moving into a leadership role and is slowly transitioning me her more complicated duties supporting this crazy group. I appreciate some of the things she’s doing, like managing the more aggressive personalities for a few months while I get acclimated, but she is known in our office for being super catty, willing to talk badly about just about anyone in our group behind their backs. She is not really mentor material aside from the fact that she knows loads about her people’s business processes. I need to know some phrases on how to respond when she starts going off on someone since I really don’t want to hear it. I know the “why?” type response to keep her a little off-balance about telling me this stuff, but I need more ammo to keep shutting it down if we’re going to coexist in a workspace.

    Tl;dr – got a bittersweet promotion that comes with sharing an office with a catty coworker who is senior to me. Need suggestions on how to shut it down when she starts gossiping about a coworker or spreading crap about someone to me, since I know it’s coming. Help!!

    1. LondonCallingWhenTheRatesAreCheaper*

      You will need to hit the note taking hard on this one. TAKE ALL THE NOTES on the processes she teaches you. Go over them at night and be prepared with questions the next day. Explore the systems as much as you can when there are lulls. KEEP A ROLLING LIST OF OTHER HELPFUL PEOPLE (Hiram in A/P, Chris in IT, Pat who uses similiar process for XY group).

      You will need all of this because (1) if you are busy with transitioning work, busy asking questions – there is less time for gossip; (2) you will want to avoid using this person as a resource once she leaves; (3)any mis-steps you make after training ends she will broadcast to everyone.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      I’m not comfortable talking that way about people. How are you doing with (work task)?

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      My advice for the second would be to keep it very bland.

      Coworker: gossip gossip
      You: “hmm…” or “interesting” or “you don’t say” all in a very bored tone of voice with minimal eye contact.

      It’s not rude, it’s doesn’t encourage her to engage and she’s likely to eventually seek another confidant.

      I know it’s not as satisfying as correcting her behavior but it shuts it down in a workplace friendly way.

      1. valentine*

        It sounds like hazard pay. Is it worth it or will this hurt your career? Tell the gossip you need to concentrate and, if necessary, read quietly aloud to yourself from your notes so it’s obvious she’s interrupting your work with nonsense.

  48. Anonymosity*

    What do you do when you don’t fit anywhere?

    What do you do when you’ve been unemployed for almost two years and nobody wants you?

    What do you do when there is no growth in your market (the same twenty or twenty-five jobs get posted over and over and over) and you can’t afford to move or take classes or get any professional certifications?

    What do you do when most of those jobs include things you can’t do, and moving or doing contract work won’t solve that?

    Is it worth living if you can’t make a living in a society that punishes you for not making a living?

    How do you think outside the box when you can’t think?

    When will it end?

    2. Triplestep*

      (877) 870-HOPE (4673)

      That is the number for the Samaritans if you are in the US. You can also go to their website and click a link to text them. samaritanshope dot org. For UK contact info, you can go to Samaritans dot org.

      I’m sorry if I misread your post, but when someone asks “Is it worth living …” I take it very seriously. Before all else, please talk to someone.

      I am not unemployed, but I feel the same frustration at seeing the same jobs posted over and over. People don’t seem to let you re-invent yourself when you’ve got 30 years of work history (even if there’s only 20 showing on the resume). Have you considered temp work or volunteer work while you’re pursuing work in your field? I knw that seems like a simpleminded answer to the complicated and emotional questions you asked, but having a routine and being productive can help.

      Above all else, please talk to someone if you’re feeling despondent, depressed, or even just blue. Please take care

    3. IL JimP*

      I agree with everything Triplestep said, find someone to talk to. Here’s some helpful options

      suicideprevention dot wikia dot com/wiki/International_Suicide_Prevention_Directory

    5. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Sending you a hug. The dark hours when your brain talks to you like this, contain a lot of pain and you will be okay – really, really, really. (Saying from the other side). Take the steps mentioned above. Do one step of anything positive – walk the dog, go outside and pull a few weeds, eat a healthy lunch, pick up the phone and text / call / set an appointment to connect with someone. Figure out how to volunteer somewhere you care about (shelter cat petting, volunteer at the food pantry, somewhere), if nothing else resonates. Not everything at once, just pick one thing you can do that is giving back and positive today, tomorrow. And know that we care. That you are NOT alone. And that your brain can fool you into thinking that work is the only thing that matters. It is not. It’s only 1/3 of your life (in some ways), and you can fill the rest of your life with things that mean something to you.
      But again, great big hug. You matter, you matter to us, and we are here for you.

    6. I Can Relate*

      I agree with the other posters, please hang in there. I went through something similar 6 years ago and am so glad I didn’t make a decision based on those dark/negative thoughts. A year later I was in a totally different situation that I would have never imagined possible for me. It is hard to keep going everyday but things will change. You are not alone. You matter. Don’t give up.

    7. Bea*

      Please reach out to your regional help line. You’re worth it and despite being strangers on the internet, we want you to be healthy and happy. I’m sorry you’re struggling and hope you turn that corner soon. Xoxo

    8. anon for this*

      This isn’t what the others would have me say but I think you’re asking very valid questions– I just don’t think we can answer them for you. And I have no advice to give you because I’m in the same position; I know that all the thoughts and prayers in the world can’t change our unfortunate reality.

      Just know that you’re not alone. ♡

    9. Aurora Leigh*

      I’ve been reading your posts here for a long time and I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this!!

      *sending all the internet hugs*
      *also kitty cuddles and puppy tail wags*

      I live in a similar area, economically, and one area that is hiring is home health aides (there’s a couple different agencies). My grandma has several on a rotation that do things like cooking, some light cleaning, and running errands. Although I’m sure some of the clients can be a real pain in the butt . . . but the pay is decent and it might be a good stopgap for you.

      1. Anonymosity*

        I got no reply from them when I tried in 2012 and the pay is not decent.

        Thanks for the kitty and puppy stuff though. <3

        2. The real Olivia Benson*

          2012 is not 2018. Worth a try again? Also, some money is better than no money at all, right?

          What about volunteering somewhere?

    10. AnotherAlison*

      First, hugs. . .

      I know you have applied for countless jobs. Have you been able to do much in working your relationships? I say this as a person with 3 friends total, including my mom, and I totally get that the people of your region are dog people and you are a cat person. I don’t know if it is more discouraging, but I think that is where you have to focus when you are no longer entry level age and have experience that you may have to spin to potential employers, plus industries’ needs have evolved. I think we have rarely even interviewed someone who was differently qualified for a position who applied online (they don’t get through HR), but we have hired people who didn’t match the job description at all when someone in the department hand-carried their resume and vouched for them. Heck, if you want to work at wi ck mans, I know someone there. Hang in there.

    11. Whatsinaname*

      Please hang in there. Do you have any friends or family in more urban settings who you could move in with? If yes, have you asked? Would you be able to pack up your stuff and go? If not, what is preventing you? Is it your house? Would you be willing to let your mortgage go into default in order to have cash flow to move, provided you have some place to go. Are there part time or temporary positions available to you to ensure some cash flow to keep you afloat for a while longer? Are you able to qualify for free medical and food stamps? Are you taking advantage of that? The sense I’m getting is that you have an immediate need because you’re running out of money and that you have a long term desire to get out of where you are because you don’t see a future. However, it’s pretty hard to focus on the future if the present looms so large. If you’re not asking people/organizations concretely for help because you’re embarrassed to do so, please don’t be. I’ve been there, things turned out okay, Don’t lose faith in yourself.

    12. Kiwi*

      I come here every week and search for your username hoping things have improved. I’m telling you this to let you know you matter me, even though I haven’t met you. I don’t have anything helpful to say about the job search, apart from that it sounds incredibly frustrating and really hard to solve, but please hang in there.

      And I didn’t get round to getting your book when you posted the link a while ago. This reminded me I’d meant to. Could you post the link again?

    13. valentine*

      Is it worth living if you can’t make a living in a society that punishes you for not making a living? Yes.

    14. Jen*

      Have you tried your state’s workforce development agency or any state/county/local resources for getting back on your feet? We have found a surprising amount of support for my husband’s elderly parents via our county’s aging and disability department that I never knew existed (walked us through Medicare, helped us fill out applications, explained what steps to take when their savings run out, etc…). I’m sure we would have made serious blunders without their guidance.

      One job I can recommend is retail pharmacy technician. Most of it is on the job training and even though it’s retail, I learned so much about medications, insurance billing, customer service, pharmaceutical companies, laws and regulations, hospitals and clinics – I feel like I could go on for awhile, but you get the idea. Pay wasn’t great, but it was something and it was always an interesting job. People were definitely more forthcoming about their bodies than I ever thought they would be!

      I can also tell you from personal experience that volunteering helped me immensely through difficult times and jobs that didn’t seem to be going well, plus I was hired at both places after a short time. Again, the pay wasn’t great, but the missions were, so that helped out with impressing people in interviews and now I have a career I really love that has nothing to do with my degree or previous work experience.

      Finally, yes, life is worth living. Everyone counts and has worth. I hope things work out for you.

      1. Anonymosity*

        This is a very red state and there is no assistance for a single adult who is not totally incapacitated.

        1. Anna Held*

          We would miss you. I would miss you, and I haven’t been around that long to really “know” you. A person’s value is not, by a long shot, simply in what they “produce” as a worker bee.

          My only bit of advice is to chime in with above, to try to line up any help you might need now. Non profits, government benefits, family and friends, start reaching out now. Stuff takes time, and in your personal life people might not realize what you need. Be specific and direct. I suspect you’ll also be surprised at who will (and won’t) be able to help.

          Hugs to you always.

  49. stitchinthyme*

    When job searching, how do you deal with impostor syndrome and lack of confidence?

    Some background: I’m a software developer in my late 40s, which is kind of on the older side for this industry; many companies want to hire younger people who are a) cheaper, and b) more up-to-date on skills. There are definitely some languages that seem to have endured, but every few years there’s something new and hot, and although I could probably find training or courses to learn these things, in this industry experience counts for more than training, so I don’t feel comfortable listing skills I haven’t actually used in my job. (Although developers here do have some say in what languages to use for new projects, my company does have a standard set of technologies they use, and I’d probably have to justify it if I wanted to use something new, because no one else would be able to maintain it if anything were to happen to me.) I could work on open-source projects in my spare time, but quite honestly, I really, really don’t want to — I code for 8 hours a day, and I have other things I’d prefer to be doing when I’m not working.

    So basically, although I did learn one “hot” new language recently for my job, I don’t really feel like my skill set is all that up-to-date, and I’ve always had a bad case of impostor syndrome regardless. Despite that, I’ve never had problems finding or keeping a job — most of the ones I’ve had, I found via passive searches, just by posting my resume and seeing who called me, or by networking. And I’ve been at my current place and the two places before that for five years each, with decent performance reviews from all of them. But I’m getting older, and I constantly worry that at some point employers just won’t want to hire someone who’s this old and isn’t up on the latest hot technologies. I try not to borrow trouble, but for various reasons, I’m thinking of starting a new job search in a couple of months (depends on how some organizational changes work out at my current place), and every time I think about it, I’m eaten up with anxiety at the thought of trying to sell myself when I really don’t have a strong belief in my skills.

    Add to that the fact that according to various salary calculators I’ve checked, I may have to take a pretty drastic pay cut if I move — especially given the fact that I would like to get away from clearance work (which is a pretty huge percentage of jobs where I live). In theory, a pay cut would not be a really big problem, as either way I wouldn’t be making peanuts, but the thought of taking a cut is kind of galling even so. For the right job, it might be worth it, but it’s still another worry to add to the pile (and also feeds into the whole “I’m not worth what they’re paying me” impostor-syndrome thing).

    Any words of wisdom?

    1. Ferris*

      Just remember that your skills /experience apply to whatever new language you learn. I mean, once you get past the syntax, programming is programming is programming.

      I think a lot of places just want to know if you know the language so they know you can hit the ground running. If you know enough and have coded some things in a language, even though it’s not your strongest, I would still put it on the resume and feel comfortable about it. Remember, it would take you a very short amount of time to become skilled in the language, once you started seriously coding in it.

      That said, devoting some time outside of work to open source projects is probably a really good thing to do, to really show you have the skills (and beef them up). Nowadays, many people put a pointer to their github repository on their resume as a way to showcase what they can do.

      The other advice is, unless you’re planning to move to management track (which it sounds like you’re not), the best way to age-proof yourself for CS work is probably by specialization. Otherwise, like you said, you’ll always be competing against the younger, cheaper workers (who are also more willing to work crazy hours at the start of their careers). If you can find your niche(s) then companies will happily pay you well to keep doing stuff until you retire.

      Good luck, CS is a brutal field for age discrimination.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I do have a specialty – database development. I’m good at table design, queries, stuff like that. It’s what’s gotten me most of my jobs so far.

        1. Ferris*

          Just a thought, but you might need to get more specialized than that. Not that you couldn’t do other work, but if you become *the guy* that can (just making this up) maintain old Unisys DBs with FoxPro front ends running on Vax servers — then that is even better. (This is probably too specific, but hopefully it makes sense.)

          1. Ferris*

            btw, I have two friends like this — over 40 and with very specialized skills. They both have very cushy jobs – since mostly, the companies keep them on (remotely) just in case they need maintenance and they need somebody around. So, they have full time jobs that don’t require a lot of work.

          2. stitchinthyme*

            Not sure how to become more specialized without changing jobs. There’s nothing that out-of-the-ordinary at my current company. And I haven’t run across a huge number of people who can write applications that do database stuff.

            Also, it is probably worth noting that I’m female, which makes me even more of a minority in this field.

      2. stitchinthyme*

        As for open source…that’s harder because 1) as I said, I prefer to not work in my spare time — I like my work but not so much I want to do it all the time; and 2) I just wouldn’t even know where to start. I’m not all that creative, to tell the truth, so I am not about to invent something new, and I have no idea what’s out there, and even if I did, I wouldn’t know what could use improvement.

        1. give me something I can use*

          I recently changed my mind about getting involved in open source, and found this site listing projects who have issues tagged for new contributors (not necessarily new programmers): https://up-for-grabs.net/

          It’s valid to not want to work in your spare time. How do your colleagues handle the dilemma of wanting to keep their skills up-to-date (which doesn’t have to mean chasing the flavor-of-the-month) through substantial work, beyond “I read a quickstart once”? I recently interviewed somewhere where the whole team was learning to automate their manual testing processes. Obviously they didn’t frame it in terms of employability elsewhere but rather providing ongoing value to their current org. Would your boss support modernizing some systems, or evaluating some newer technologies for the next migration?

          Also, experienced developers shouldn’t underestimate the edge they hold when it comes to systems design, compared to newer folks who (apparently) believe everything the marketing copy tells them about some products capabilities. Whether you do it by understanding the underlying technology or being a dab hand at profiling, benchmarking, etc. or just having appropriate skepticism that every database is equally performant, consistent, and available, picking the right tool for the job and understanding the tradeoffs is pretty essential to success!

          I also find it difficult to have faith in my skills. But, databases aren’t going away anytime soon, and you’ve demonstrated that you can pick up new languages when you need to. So I think you’re well-situated, and if you’re not in need of a new job in a hurry, I hope you can find a way to address your concerns and find a satisfying path forward.

      3. stitchinthyme*

        Oh, one more thing I just thought of: I think a lot of my anxiety stems from the quick, casual glance I took at Dice’s job listings recently — the ones I looked at were all filled with stuff I’ve never even heard of, let alone done. I know that getting anxious over 30 seconds of looking at listings is silly, but there you have it.

        I may just do the passive-search thing again: post my resume and let them come to me. It’s always worked in the past, and I’m not desperate for a new job. Not even sure I will be starting to look at this point; like I said, I want to see how some recently announced changes shake out first, and if they improve things for me. One of the problems I have with my current job is feeling invisible and underutilized, but I’ll be getting a new manager whom I like very much, so I have some hopes that things may improve.

    2. Undine*

      Can you recast the extra money you’re making now as a “clearance bonus”? They’re paying you for that clearance, just like in some fields they pay you if you pass certain exams. Then it’s up to you whether you want to give up that bonus or not, but you know that as long as you are in jobs that pay that bonus, you are being paid what you are worth.

      In the past year, two friends of mine near 60 found new jobs in CS. One of them is starting something that on paper, at least, looks like a “dream job”. Both of them had the same worries, and one of them did find it hard doing the tests that were required for some jobs — his last job had been more architecture and less production programming.

      On your resume, emphasize the challenges and outcomes in your jobs, rather than the tools — increased efficiency, reduced errors, cost savings, reliability — list those kinds of things for each position, rather than 6 million lines of Fortran. Also emphasize your knowledge of “engineering process”, and working with teams. In your cover letter, maybe you can talk about caring about good database design and how you use it.

      You can also divide your skills into two buckets: Fluent In (or Expert In) & Familiar With.

    3. LQ*

      So…We’d love to have a dev like you. I work in a government agency. And we aren’t that cutting edge. We need people who are comfortable with change (but not like learn a new technology every year, but more like every 5 years get a bit better at the thing you already do, and also not mind when we bring in outside contractors to burn through a giant project), but the language has been the same for over a decade, the structure and framework is nearly all the same (for the worse, but I’m working on that). Developers are paid hourly and basically only ever work 8 hours a day. No one is really expected to spend their free time coding or going to extra training, that’s all included at the office.

      We also frequently have space for devs to do other kinds of projects if they’d like to try something else rather than just coding. (I’m really glad I got one of my favorite devs to come along to the dark side of not just coding for 8 hours a day, she’s going to be amazing.)

      So all this to say, maybe part of it is to change what kind of industry you’re looking in. And while this would be a bit of a pay cut it’s not that sharp, the health care is great and covered, time off is there and no one will bug you about taking it, you’re fully expected to take all of it, hourly, training, we are pretty relaxed, union. Try looking some other kind of industry, government might be a good fit. Devs who are no longer interested in chasing the latest greatest with every breath are welcome here.

    4. stitchinthyme*

      Thanks to those of you who’ve responded. I know that I’m probably overthinking things, and that I should have as much time as I need if I do decide to look — as far as I know, my current job is pretty secure, so I can take my time and find the right fit. Between the impostor syndrome and inertia/fear of change, far too often I’ve stayed in places I grew to loathe. I worry that at some point I may be stuck in a bad job simply because of ageism and stagnating skills, but I try to mentally smack myself and remind myself not to borrow trouble.

  50. CoverLetterAdvice*

    I’m trying to switch industries and applying for jobs that I think I’m qualified for, but my experience doesn’t *exactly* match the wording in the job description. Imagine “needs 5 years llama wrangling” and I have “5 years alpaca wrangling plus 2 years llama grooming”.

    When I’m writing my cover letters, should I explicitly mention that I don’t match their requirements but I think my skills would be transferable? Such as “While I don’t have X, I do have Y which is quite similar because of Z.” Or is that drawing attention to my shortcomings, and it would be better to not mention it at all?

    1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      Can you generalize it to “7 years of camelid ranching expertise” or something analogous?

      And yes! Definitely emphasize transferable skills. “I’m excited by the prospect of leveraging my strong background and skillset in alpaca wrangling and llama grooming to expand my career into the field of llama wrangling.”

    2. KayEss*

      If it’s not self-evident what the connection is, you probably want to clarify it… but I think you can word it in a way that comes across as exclusively positive. Instead of leading with “While I don’t have X,” say something like “My experience in Y applies well to X because of Z.” Also definitely highlight why you’re interested in transitioning from alpacas to llamas, and/or generally be enthusiastic about llamas and the specifics of that position–make it clear you have a strong desire for that position specifically, not that you just applied because it was tangentially related.

    3. londonedit*

      Instead of leading with the negative ‘While I don’t have X…’ bit, I’d maybe try something more like ‘I have 5 years’ alpaca-wrangling experience, and an additional two years’ llama grooming experience, all of which has given me skills in X, Y and Z. I believe this experience would be extremely beneficial if I was given the opportunity to transfer these skills into this role’.

    4. Student*

      1) You only need to meet ~50% of the job requirements to be a competitive candidate most of the time in most fields.

      2) The people writing the job post are not pedantic experts in exactly what they need. Don’t take it so very literally – go with the likely intent behind the words, go with what your years of experience tell you they probably need.

      3) If you want a job, never EVER say “I don’t meet the requirements.” Say, “I have 5 years of alpaca wrangling experience, and I’ve worked with llamas in grooming for 2 years.” Show in your resume and your interview that you understand the llama field and the wrangling field by highlighting llama accomplishments and wrangling accomplishments (while being honest that they are separate accomplishments for you). Your interviewers are not stupid – they will read your resume and realize you don’t have llama wrangling experience specifically without you saying “I’ve never wrangled a llama” in your cover letter, but understand that you have both llama experience and wrangling experience that would help them.

      Sometimes (often!) the people writing these things are copy-pasting from a different post, or playing a game of telephone with the hiring manager. Sometimes (often!) the people interviewing you will have never looked at the job post themselves, but they’ll have a picture in their heads of what a successful candidate ought to know.

    5. Bea*

      Confirming that you need to leave out any negatives. So you want to say “I also have two years experience in llama grooming which allows me to see the llama raising process from another angle!”

      Show them how the skills transfer. You can wrestle a deranged llama but even better you can lull them to sleep at night as well because you’ve worked with them in two different capacities.

  51. The Commoner*

    We have no heat. And there will be no heat for at least a week. Bleh. It was 58 at my desk on Monday. 66 today.
    #northernclimate

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Ooof. Though there’s apparently no actual laws about what temperature a workplace has to be, that sounds really rough. Any chance of your company letting people work from home? I hope at the very least they’re being flexible about dress code, letting people have blankets, etc. I recommend a hot water bottle or microwavable heating pad, too – like the kind filled with rice.

    2. Ehhhh*

      Space heaters usually aren’t allowed. But I’ve always gotten away with a heated blanket. And fingerless gloves. Good luck!

  52. Bipolar Beanpole*

    I am trying to get back in the worksforce after a lengthy illness, and having poor luck finding anything. My savings are running out, and I’m worried about losing my apartment. I’m trying to figure out what I’m doing wrong, since I do have marketable skills. Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of connections in my field. Can anyone share success stories of bouncing back from job setbacks? My other question is whether it’s really so terrible to drop off a portfolio of work samples with the receptionist at small companies, on the off chance they might need someone with my skills. I know it’s frowned on in most industries, but I’m getting desperate since online job applications are getting me nowhere – I’ve applied to hundreds of jobs, polished my resume and cover letter, and I’m just not hearing back. Thank you!

    1. OhNoes*

      Hi Beanpole. Personally I wouldn’t recommend it – if the companies are not currently hiring, they may not be certain on what to do with your portfolio. At best, it takes up space. At worst, they might bin it.

      I don’t have much to recommend other than keep trying. I was also in the same place as you last year – the job hunting was going MUCH longer than I anticipated and I was getting so desperate I went from bad job to worst job. It took a referral from a friend before I finally landed an interview.
      It should be noted that I also don’t have that much professional connections in the traditional sense (i.e. super high level people you met at business conferences or design presentations)… instead, I reached out to a college friend of mine who was much more accomplished. I would recommend going through your university contacts a bit. Maybe a past friend can help you out.

      1. Bipolar Beanpole*

        Thank you. I unfortunately only have one or two connections from university (who are in different fields anyway), which is why I was thinking about cold calling places, although I see your point and it’s honestly not what I’d like to be doing anyway. At this point, I am considering pursuing sex work until I can find something in my original field, although that’s also not easy to break into. Things are feeling a bit Kafka-esque at the moment. Glad to hear you are doing better now!

        1. OhNoes*

          Um, surely there are other options that a bit less drastic? From the fact you mentioned portfolio, I assume you are in the design field? I would recommend venturing a bit further out from your original field, perhaps some admin work or government jobs, or even retail? It might be boring and not help your design career, but would be much safer than sex work.

        2. Diet Poundcake*

          Try your university alumni association for contacts. If you are in field that has professional organizations, join a local one. If you have skills that can be volunteered, do so. If you have skills that you can offer online via gig sites, try that. Read Allison’s book. Meet with friends who work at places that have positions in your area of expertise, even if those friends work in a different department. You don’t necessarily need someone in a high-level position to get a referral for an interview.

    2. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      “it’s really so terrible to drop off a portfolio of work samples with the receptionist at small companies,”

      Terrible? No. Not great? More like that. A total waste of your time and energy? Yes.

    3. Gumby*

      I had a really really terrible response rate to online applications. But a fairly good one when using my contacts. And by contacts I don’t mean professional ones necessarily. Got my current job via a heads up from a friend from church.

      I also did several informational interviews – which I treated as legit informational interviews not sneaky ways to try to get a “real” interview – and those helped if for no other reason than I had to get out there and talk about work. Those contacts I got via recommendations from friends and contacting alums from my university who had indicated that they were available for job advice.

    4. pcake*

      If you’ve applied to hundreds of jobs, perhaps it’s time to take another stab at your resume / cover letter. You should be hearing back from some even if you don’t get past the phone interview.

  53. Harman*

    A while back, my co-worker told me that his boss said I might get the axe at the end of the year. Dejected, I started job hunting so I can be ready before bad news strikes. However, 2 months later (job hunting results are so far slow), the new org chart for my company just got released. My name is there, as is new responsibilities.
    Does that mean I am safe? Or can layoffs still happen?
     

    1. grey*

      Not to give you false hope, but that seems highly unlikely that they would give you new responsibilities right before laying you off.

      1. Harman*

        Hmmm. Yeah, I guess I better not lower my guard. The job hunting process is slow, but at least slow is better than zero.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          I once worked at a company that gave an employee an award for outstanding work on a project, then laid them off about a week or two later. So yeah, never assume you’re safe.

          1. Former non profit professional*

            Yeah, I was promoted by the board to associate director after they hired a new Executive director. He cut my position 6 weeks later.

    3. Bea*

      Are they responsibilities you can take on easily? this sounds like a restructure and that can lead to major shakeup. If you can’t do those things or need substantial training to do them…they may still lay you off and bring in someone else.

      I’m sick to my stomach hearing you heard this a round about way. My partner was laid off in that same fashion. He got fed up and had to just quit because the axe was falling so slowly and his manager didn’t have the balls to talk to him.

  54. grey*

    I’ve been getting some random recruiting emails over the last few months; but every time I ask the person where they got my resume from I get no response (because I’m not currently job-seeking and obviously I must have forgotten about where I listed my resume). Got one this week for a job I am passably interested in. Had my phone interview and one of the recruiter’s questions “And why are you looking for a new job?” I really wanted to be a smart-aleck and say – uh, you called me and that resume hadn’t been updated in over a year. But I just went with “I’m keeping my feelers open just in case.”

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I think it would be fair to have said “I wasn’t actively job-searching – actually, I’m not sure where you came across my resume – but when you reached out to me with this particular position I was intrigued by it because of (reasons).”

  55. KayEss*

    I had a phone interview yesterday that I feel like went really poorly. Even though I prepared extensively, I was put off-balance for stupid reasons when the call actually came and don’t think I represented myself well. It’s a very different position than the others I’ve been interviewing for, and I kind of flubbed my “here’s my work history experience and why it’s relevant” spiel. The hiring manager didn’t have any substantial questions for me about it–which is what makes me think it went poorly–so I spent most of the interview asking him questions about the role and how it integrates with the team’s processes, which hopefully came across as marginally intelligent, and I tried to work in comments about my experience with regard to the things that came up in his answers. He didn’t ask any behavioral questions at all, which I don’t know if that’s because he had already written me off or if those are the kind of thing he wants to save for a later interview. Basically, at this point I feel like if they move forward with me, it will be because their standards for the level of coherent communication expected from candidates is charitably low.

    Usually when I get rejections I can let them roll off my back because I did my best and either I wasn’t what they needed or there was someone better… but this time I don’t feel like I did my best and that’s going to eat at me. Any advice on how to get over that, especially if it feels like you’ve missed out on a nearly one-of-a-kind career opportunity?

  56. AnonEmu*

    Good news is, I had two very successful interviews this week! One wants me to fly out in person for a second interview, and the other offered me the job. I admit on the latter, I came out of the interview thinking I’d not done very well, but I also applied to it on the suggestion of my former mentor, who said I was definitely qualified, and I guess they agreed. I am waiting on the offer letter from the job , but mostly as time to think it over – the job would involve moving internationally, and I’m still not 100% sure I want to be so far from family and having to start over from scratch. It seems like a silly reason to turn down a job, idk, but I am worried that I’d have a hard time building a new support network and I’d feel isolated so many time zones away from pretty much everyone I know. I’m really dithering over this one – cost of moving would be expensive but mostly it’s that it’s a big step and one I am not sure I want to take. I applied thinking I wouldn’t get the job, because there were some areas of experience they wanted I didnt have, but now I’m in the tricky position of having to turn it down, while not having another job lined up, and needing to get out of this job as soon as I can. I am more optimistic about the first job I interviewed with, which would put me in a high CoL area but closer to family and is in industry rather than academia. I’ve also applied for another academic job and am working on applications for more, so fingers crossed there. I think at this point as much as moving overseas might help my career in some ways, I really just want to stay in North America, but I’m not sure how to say that without sounding weak.

    Thanks for all the great advice last week – if anyone has tips re this bit of the job hunt I’d be very appreciative!

    1. Bigintodogs*

      I know how you feel about moving. I love where I live and most of my family is close by, and all but one of my close friends are close too. Best of luck in your decision!

    2. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      “It seems like a silly reason to turn down a job, idk, but I am worried that I’d have a hard time building a new support network and I’d feel isolated so many time zones away from pretty much everyone I know.”

      This is definitely not a silly reason to turn down a job. You work to live, not live to work. It’s not wrong to want to stay near people you care about.

    3. KayEss*

      Long-distance moves are no joke, and international moves are REALLY no joke. My instinct from everything I’ve heard about international relocation is that if you’re more than a tiny bit iffy on doing it, don’t.

      People turn down jobs because of logistics like that all the time–it’s not weak to say “Upon further consideration, an international move isn’t right for me at this time.” If they have any experience at all hiring international candidates, they’ll have heard that before. And it would be much more of a problem to go through the monetary and psychological expense of uprooting your life and then find out you’re miserable in your new home and job! Don’t leap into a risky, difficult-to-escape situation just because the one you’re in now isn’t great.

      1. AnonEmu*

        I guess I’m concerned that my hesitation is due to me being super burnt out by this current job. But at the same time, the idea of leaving all my friends and family behind like this makes me really nervous – I mean, I could make new friends there, I hopefully would, but…there’s a lot of unknowns here. And this job has given me no time to be part of the community here and I’ve felt so isolated…it’s a 3 year employment contract overseas. If I don’t fit, I’d be stuck. It’d be a great, high-profile job and it would make sense for my career, but…I’m just really hesitant now. And I feel like I’ve wasted people’s time. The committee that hired me said I can email them with any questions I have, but idk if that’s worth it either. I’m kind of a big ball of idk right now.

        1. KayEss*

          From what you’ve said here, it doesn’t sound like the prospective international job is offering you a lot of support or even making a lot of effort to convince you to take the job, and you definitely don’t sound very enthusiastic about whatever positives it has. If you still feel like you want to keep the option open, I would definitely do some research into what kind of things are involved in an international move and living abroad, even just googling “things to consider before working abroad” if you haven’t. I’ve never seriously considered making that move, so really all I know is anecdotal things like “culture shock is extremely real, affects most people to some degree, and is not a weakness of character,” “working out visas and banking is a lot more complicated than you think it will be,” and “a company that’s really good at international hiring will have support systems in place for helping you navigate life in their country, beyond them just doing the bare minimum on their end to secure your visa.” It’s absolutely okay to ask the prospective employer what assistance they offer, how successful other international employees have been, etc. If you haven’t visited their offices and the area you’d be living yet, I would consider that a red flag–ask if it would be possible for them to arrange a short visit for you before you accept. (Which under most circumstances they should foot the bill for!) Also check out things like what the expat community in that area is like, etc.

          I read that something like a third of people who take international jobs wind up not completing their contracts/returning home early… I have no idea if that’s accurate, but I do know that it’s in the prospective employer’s interest to make sure you’re as comfortable and enthusiastic as possible about the move, and ultimately it SAVES them time if you make an informed decision that it’s not for you. So above all, don’t take this job just because it would be momentarily socially awkward not to–you can decline with grace and if they take it badly that’s a sign that accepting would have been a bad, BAD idea.

          1. AnonEmu*

            I am waiting for the offer letter they said they’d send to see if it was even financially feasible – my former mentor has worked with this team before so I will probably email him asking what he thinks of the area. He was the one who sent me the job listing to begin with, and said I was uniquely qualified for the job. I am currently making a list of questions to email the search committee back – they did say that I was welcome to, that they recognize this is a big step. And just because my current job leaves me unable to make local friends (working 530AM-530PM plus weekends at current job) doesn’t mean this one would. I think a visit would also be a good idea, but I don’t know how frequently international travel like that would be covered. I haven’t really been told the timeframe for making my decision.

            I also admit that Im currently in a pretty bad state of depression right now due too current job so that is affecting my perspective. It’s just a very big decision right now and I think I need to get a lot more information before I make any decisions. Thanks for all the feedback though!

            1. Darren*

              Depending on how important this is to you consider making it part of the offer. I was in a bit of a different situation (internal transfer from one country to another due to the local office closing) when I did my international move but on discussing my concerns with them I managed to get 2 paid for flights back to visit friends and family a year included in my contact. It’s pretty similar to a ~10K salary difference (sometimes less depending on distance and whether your company already does a lot of international travel and gets some discounts from that, or might actually need someone travelling near where you live anyway so it can be combined with those).

              If it would make you much more comfortable to accept the job if that was in there it’s not that much difference than any other benefit (car, extra vacation, etc) so they will probably be willing to consider it as part of your negotiation. For a permanent position they might not do so indefinitely (think like a signing bonus with say 2 paid trips back in the first year, but after that you are on your own handling it) but given it’s a 3 year contract you might be able to get it for the duration of the contract.

  57. Mouse Princess*

    Is it unethical to run personal errands while doing work errands?

    I work in a small office and despite it being nowhere near my responsibilities, I often volunteer to run to pick up office supplies, etc, because sometimes it’s just nice to get out of the office. I’m not reimbursed for mileage, gas, or parking. Sometimes on my way back, I will stop into the pharmacy to pick up some household items, prescription, etc.

    I’m hourly, so I was wondering if this is unethical since technically I’m getting paid to run a personal errand, though I am sort of going out of my way to do the work errand in the first place?

    1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      I would guess that it depends if you’re going out of your way to do your personal errands. If you’re picking up paper for your office, and you remember that you need floss which you can get at the same store, its barely taking any time away to pick up the floss. But if you’re making another stop and that stop takes a substantial amount of time (I don’t know how to define that – 5 minutes? 10?), I wouldn’t do it.

    2. Seriously?*

      If it takes extra time then I think so. If you can clock out and clock back in it would be ok since then you wouldn’t be paid for the personal portion of the errands. If it were all in the same store it would be a little different since it is less time involved, but still borderline. If you really want to keep doing it, ask your boss. If they ok it you are in the clear. If you are uncomfortable with them knowing you are running a personal errand while at work, then you have your answer. You aren’t picking up office supplies as a favor. You are doing it because it is a part of your job and you want to get out of the office for a bit.

    3. Not a Badmin anymore*

      I used to be the person who ran work errands and I would often combine the work errand with my hour lunch and thought of it as an extra long lunch and gave me more flexibility. Not sure if that’s how it pans out for you. I would look at it through the lens of of time – if it takes less than 20 m to do the errand I wouldn’t worry about it. Also depends how flexible your workplace is as well. There were also days I was early for work or wouldn’t take my full unpaid hour of lunch so I thought it all came out in the wash and that didn’t bother my conscience.

      1. Mouse Princess*

        This is kind of my outlook and my office is incredibly flexible (to the point where my timesheets are not even reviewed). I often work through lunch without a care and when I’m late to work or have to take 15 minutes for an errand I don’t worry about it. I guess this would not fly in other offices, but the honor system seems to work and I really don’t think I’m taking advantage of it.

        1. Not a Badmin anymore*

          Also, we’re adults – I’ve just gone by don’t do anything you wouldn’t be able to defend or explain? For example, going to get paper and coming back 2 hours later when that takes 30m.

    4. Michelle*

      I will occasionally take care of personal errands while doing work errands if it doesn’t take up more than a few minutes. If am doing a mail run and I know that my prescription refill is ready at the pharmacy across the street from the post office, I’ll run in and get it. But if I needed to wait more than a few minutes, I would wait until after work. If I need to run by the ATM and the line is not long, I’ll run through. Many of my coworkers do the same.

      I think as long as it’s not every time and it’s not taking more than a few minutes, it’ll be OK.

    6. Bea*

      They’re not paying your mileage, they’re already on shakey ground legally and ethically. So honestly, don’t think about it so much unless it’s adding substantial time to the task.

      1. Ender Wiggin*

        You could try tracking how much extra time it takes and how much it is costing you in parking and mileage. If its even or its costing you more than they would have to pay you for the time you are “stealing” then I think you are fine from an ethical perspective.

    7. ..Kat..*

      If you are hourly and work through lunch, you should be paid for that. You should also be paid for mileage and parking. That said, I think you should consider the extra time it takes you to add on your errands to be time not worked (and therefore unpaid).

  58. OlympiasEpiriot*

    This is a PSA to any men reading this thread:

    Wear a damn undershirt if you insist on wearing your dress shirts tight.

    There was a seminar we had earlier this week where the guy presenting obviously spent a lot of time in a gym and liked to show it; but, I could see So Much Detail about his nipples since our office is a little cold. He was also standing up and I was in the front row. I had previously met him on a couple of job sites so he kept engaging me during the case studies section and I was doing my best to make eye-contact without seeing his torso first when looking up from my notepad.

    :-\

    1. Fabulous*

      YES! If women are mandated to wear bras, men should be mandated to wear undershirts.
      #nonipplesatworkplznthx

      2. Michelle*

        This made me literally laugh out loud and now everyone wants to know what made the “quiet one” laugh so loud.

      3. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Fortunately, that has never come to my attention in a work setting since no one wears Speedos to my job sites.

        However, yes. I agree.

      4. Camellia*

        The variation I have heard men say about women: I could read the date on the penny in her pocket.

      5. Chaordic One*

        When I worked in H.R. there was a male admin who got to have the “awkward” conversations with other male workers about their needing to wear underwear under their pants when at work. No “going commando” at work.

    3. jm*

      Yes to this.
      We have a local probate judge who chooses an employee of the month from his office. He posts a pic of himself and the employee on the court’s Facebook page. His dress shirts are so tight that his nipples are prominent in the photo, even though it’s one little photo in a mass of other photos on my Facebook feed. Yuck!

    4. EnfysNest*

      This also totally applies if said shirt is not necessarily too tight, but you like to lean back in your chair when talking with coworkers and your shirt comes untucked a lot (apparently without you noticing?). The amount of bare stomach I want to see at work is ZERO, but the amount that I have seen is definitely greater than zero. -_-

    5. Ender Wiggin*

      I think this comment is way out of order. If a man came on here and started complaining about how he could see his coworkers nipples through her top that would be considered totally unacceptable.

      Also If he’s as buff as you say he may find it hard to find shirts that fit that don’t show nipple-bumps when it’s cold.

    6. AshK434*

      Why does this concern you? We all have nipples. I wear t-shirt bras and my nipples sometimes show (inadvertently of course). If someone brought this nonsense up to me I’d tell them where to go and how to get there.

      1. valentine*

        I’d like to have back all the time I wasted agonizing over clothing and coverage. I look forward to a day when none of this matters and bodies are just bodies, especially after reading that, in the The Netherlands, kids can wear what they want. A girl sat on her desk in mesh and miniskirts no one made a fuss or gave her grief.

  59. Amber Rose*

    Last week I said things were weird and a long time employee was fired. Actually, she was arrested. She was stealing money from the company. That’s all I’m allowed to hear, which is understandable.

    Management is in a foul mood, those of us downhill have found that we suddenly have a lot less work to do and we’ve been warned that we won’t be given more for a while. Not because we’re suspect, but just because. Also at some point I’ll have to sit with my manager (we all will) with a list of passwords and log in to to everything with her. Which feels not great. I get it, but ugh.

    In other news, I’ve made nothing but mistakes for the last two weeks and I’m not sure why. I don’t feel any more unwell than usual but I’m just all over the board and some of my mistakes have been pretty bad. It sucks and I don’t know what to do. I’ve been trying to double and triple check but I’m just not seeing them.

    Also we got a solid foot of snow and that sucks. It’s way too much snow. 168 car accidents overnight. Thankfully not including me for a change.

    I guess what I want to say is, Happy Thanksgiving fellow Canadians. Hopefully this long weekend is a relaxing one.

    1. Annie Moose*

      Sounds like even if you didn’t know exactly what was going on, the atmosphere in your office was strained to begin with–could that be causing you to make more mistakes? Sometimes you just don’t notice how stressed you are until something shakes things up and makes it obvious. (or maybe that’s just me!)

      Hope things get better for you soon, and enjoy Thanksgiving!!

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s possible. I’ve been under an unusual amount of stress since early September. I haven’t really felt different, but stress collects in weird places sometimes.

        Also I suffered a head mauling from a frightened cat and a weird health thing and between them I was bleeding profusely for a while. I may be low on something or other despite my best efforts.

    2. Nita*

      I’m glad you’re having a long weekend. I find that when everything starts to go wrong, it’s like a chain reaction, and the best thing you can do is step away for a few days. It might help reset the stress pattern you’re trapped in right now. I hope next week is better.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Happy thanksgiving! I believe we sent you some snowplows to help dig out :) it’s certainly mild three hours north of you!

    4. Canadian Natasha*

      Happy Thanksgiving back atcha! I think I may know which snowfall you are talking about (and everyone here was grateful it didn’t make it this far). Hope you get your fall back before winter really starts!

    5. Bea*

      My first job ever was post-embezzling fiasco. I know that dreadful atmosphere even all these years later.

      It will loosen up eventually. I’m sorry you and your colleagues have to deal with the fallout from this.

  60. Lynne879*

    Last week I posted here & was frustrated in writing cover letters… but I think I found a formula that can work for me.

    Aside from the opening (“Please accept this resume & cover letter…”) & the conclusion paragraph (“Here is where I can be contact…”), I have three main paragraphs; the first paragraph will be about what I can bring to the company & maybe talk how the things I learned at other jobs that can be transferred to this job; the second paragraph will be about my work ethic; and the third paragraph will be something about the company I’m applying to (“I’ve always liked your company’s Tea Pot designs & would be thrilled to work here!”)

    What do other people think? Do you guys also have a “format” you use for your cover letters?

    1. Fabulous*

      I think your introductory paragraph should instead go in whatever email you send with your materials. It doesn’t need to be in a cover letter. The format I’ve used in the past includes something very similar to yours. First paragraph covers what attracted me to the job, the second covers why I would excel at it and how my experience ties in, and the third thanks them for their time and consideration. My contact information is included in my signature. Sometimes my second paragraph turns into multiples depending on how many different qualifications they’re looking for, but it always follows that format.

      1. zora*

        I don’t have a separate cover letter file when I am sending in applications by email anymore. And Alison has confirmed this in the past as well.

        I just put the entire text of my “cover letter” into the body of the email, with a basic salutation and signature. And then attach the resume as a separate file.

        The only time I keep the Coverletter as a separate file, is when uploading to an application system, and in that case, I just have the two documents.

        Having different text in your email and in your cover letter is overkill.

        1. Fabulous*

          I don’t think it’s overkill in the slightest to just have something like, “Please see my attached cover letter and resume to apply for the position of Llama Wrangler with Lllamas, Inc.” Besides, Alison has said either way is fine.

          Personally, I like having a separate cover letter because a) sometimes my email likes to do stupid things like adding extra returns or changing fonts without me knowing, b) I can ensure the letter doesn’t get too lengthy and prints on one page without ads or other email webpage distractions, and c) I can customize my letter header to match my resume and demonstrate that I know how to write and properly format a business letter. Plus, you’re also protecting that the email text doesn’t get deleted if its forwarded.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      Oh, yeah. I definitely use a template (my own, not like a Word template!) with the key words and phrases adjusted for the particular job. This is paraphrased – I don’t want to give away all my secrets ;)

      P1: I’m excited to apply for the position of Job with Company. I’m great at [2-3 broad areas of responsibility, e.g. client services and project management] and I would be an asset to your organization.

      P2: As you’ll see from my resume, [2-3 specific accomplishments/examples that directly reflect the responsibilities or qualifications listed in the ad].

      Optional P3: why I’m interested in that specific company or industry, only if I’m really feeling it.

      P3/4: Tie it all together: “My goal at every job is to…”; call to action: “I’d love the opportunity to discuss the value I can bring to the Company [family/team]”; thanks for your consideration.

      If I’m attaching a PDF, I use a header that matches my resume for contact info. If I’m typing it into a box, I add my email and phone under my name.

      Perdonally, I use the PDF whenever possible. When applying by email, the body of my email just says “attached please find my resume and formal cover letter for the Job position. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to hearing from you.” And signed with my name/email/phone.

  61. Portmanteau*

    How do I politely indicate to people who address me through email as “Mr. Lastname” that I am in fact a Ms., while simultaneously indicating that I prefer to use my first name? I answer questions from external people via email, and while there is usually some back and forth, usually once they have an answer, they move on, so there is not much point in establishing a rapport (such as me responding with “Oh, I prefer FirstName”). I always sign my email with my first name, with my full name in my signature below. On the advice of a coworker, I’ve also tried signing it when they address me as Mr. with “(Ms.) Firstname”, but then I get back, “Hi Lastname” the next time. Unfortunately for me, my last name is not particularly something you should be addressing people with (along the lines of “Hi B*tch”). Is there a better option?

    1. Anon From Here*

      My surname is often used as a male first name, and my first name is easily mistaken for a male first name. I get addressed as a dude constantly.

      I just ignore it and deal with the substance of the e-mail. The person I’m corresponding with will get it eventually. Or maybe they won’t, and it almost never, ever matters in the end.

    2. Fabulous*

      Could your default email signature be amended to Ms. Firstname Lastname so there’s no question? Sometimes I’ve seen people sign off with the following too:

      –Preferredname
      Ms. Firstname Lastname

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      You could sign your emails with your preferred name and have a signature block below it. You can often set up your email program to include the signature block automatically. You could also add in your preferred pronouns (still relatively uncommon, but becoming more so – the school I work at is starting to do this). Like this:

      Message body message body message body.
      Thanks,
      Dylan
      ——-
      Dylan Lastname (she/her/hers)
      Teapot Designer
      Teapots, Inc.
      phone number and/or email address and/or physical address

      1. Tara S.*

        ^ this is exactly what I was going to suggest. Including pronouns is becoming increasingly common.

        1. Tara S.*

          Also, if someone signs off with their first name only, I take it as a sign I can refer to them that way. Not going to happen for everyone, but should help some.

          1. Slartibartfast*

            Mr.S’s first name is more commonly a last name, and our last name could be a female first name. Particularly when he was in the military but overseas, I would have to be the one to call about bills, benefits etc. It was like the Abbott and Costello who’s on first routine every time.

      2. FuzzFrogs*

        Oh, I do like this! I’m wondering if this could help with my similar problems; although I’m wondering how people within my organization would react. Lots of older, Southern liberals…

    4. No Name Yet*

      The recs here are helpful, I don’t have any to add, but an amusing-to-me story: my name is female, but unusual enough that people often aren’t sure of gender. Since it’s normal for people to call me Dr. No Name, the uncertainty can last for a while. I had one remote-to-me person with whom I had a great intermittent IM/email relationship for almost a year, and he was shocked when I told him I was going on maternity leave, because he had totally thought I was a guy that entire time. He felt terrible, I thought it was hysterical, esp. since I had no idea.

    5. FuzzFrogs*

      We could be twins. My first name is old-fashioned, and definitively female, but I get a ton of misspellings and misgenderings. And I changed my last name with marriage to get away from it (it was mispronounced, OFTEN, as “Hairy.” I was a hairy child, as it happens. Not a great combo.)

      Nothing works. I find the best defense is making sure your signature is impeccably correct, venting to a coworker who does well with venting, and moving on. The most you’ll get is knowing you’re in the right and that they can’t read.

    6. Rosemary7391*

      I tend to just be upfront about it. Usually something like “Please feel free to call me Rosemary, but if you fancy being formal I’m Miss 7391”. Add a :) if appropriate. This is only with people who I have an ongoing relationship with though – I’d just let it go if that wasn’t the case.

    7. Kathenus*

      Tagging on to the other comments, how about something like ‘Actually it’s Ms. Lastname, but please call me Firstname’

  62. Bigintodogs*

    I’m applying to jobs and I’m finding it really hard to find many that I would actually care about in terms of duties, company mission, etc. I’m in data science/analytics and like the field, but so many jobs do not sound appealing to me. I am currently working, so I’m not desperate for money, but I really don’t like my job now (consulting and the project is terrible with no chance of rolling off).
    Am I being too picky? I’m not super into relocation because family and friends are close by, plus I like the area (outside major US city).
    Anyone else feel like maybe corporate America is just not for them?

    1. Tara S.*

      Have you looked into working for a public agency/non-profit? I ended up in a job for a research institute at a public university, which was unplanned as I was just trying to find A Job after moving. However, even though I was doing very similar work as my previous job, the fact that I was supporting this really cool research magically made things so much more bearable for me. It’s part of the reason I’ve decided to try and stay in a public/non-profit space – I really value connecting to the mission, in a way I never thought mattered before I took this job.

      1. Bigintodogs*

        I interviewed at a public college and I think it went well. The salary is a bit low but otherwise it seemed okay. I am going to try to look at more jobs like that. Thank you!

    2. Anon From Here*

      I’m currently in a short-term corporate gig, my first time working in corporate in a long time, and it’s just not my bag. You’re not alone! When this is up I’ll be parlaying the experience (and the cash cushion) into something more meaningful and socially impactful. Until then — ugh.

    3. Hamburke*

      Corporate America and government are not for me. I’ve done both and get annoyed quickly. I thrive in the small business world. It’s definitely a thing.

  63. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

    I’m wondering how common it is to travel for interviews where a position is far away.

    I’ve got a phone interview for an entry-level position halfway across the country, and my internship supervisor says they will expect me to fly in for an in-person interview if I get passed this stage. I’ve had interviews for far away positions before, and they’re usually okay with just doing Skype interviews rather than flying me in…what would ya’ll say is the norm?

    1. Bigintodogs*

      I’ve definitely heard of people flying in, especially for the final stage. My current company flew some people in to NYC to interview because it was an all-day thing.

    2. Never*

      I’m guessing it depends on the industry? In mine (a STEM field), it’s been common for companies to fly me in (as in, the company has paid for the flight). If they are asking you to pay for the flight in this case and you’d rather not pay and do a Skype interview instead, you can always ask if that’s a possibility.

      1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

        It’s a nonprofit, so I doubt they’d shell out the money for my flight. I’ll definitely ask for a Skype interview if I make it to that stage, but if they refuse I hope they don’t get upset if I withdraw myself from consideration.

    3. Gregor*

      Generally, only if you have in-demand/hard to find skills or it is a manager level and above positions will the company/org. be willing to foot the bill to fly you out to interview. Positions where there is abundant local talent where they get more than enough applicants (lower level positions), you’re generally going to have to foot the bill to travel if they invite you and you want to be seriously considered.

    4. AshK434*

      It depends. I have no roots so frequently pick up and move for positions and for the employers who wouldn’t pay to fly me out, I would say 90% of them offered to do Skype interviews either in lieu of an in-person or as an additional step before an in-person. The non-profits were more willing to do the Skype in my experience.

  64. NonnyNon*

    I’m going on four weeks of medical leave starting in a week. The company I work for is very small, and it’s unusual for someone to be out of the office for this length of time. (In the 3 years I’ve worked here, I can’t think of a single time someone has been out for 4 weeks, either for a vacation or medical leave or anything else.)

    My department consists of 4 people, counting myself and our boss. It’s becoming really clear that none of them have thought about the fact that the department will be running with 75% of the usual staff (really more like 67%, if you exclude my boss). My boss keeps taking on new work as if everyone will be available to handle it, when they’ll be down 1/3 of the department for an entire month. This leads to things like a coworker asking me to pick up one of his projects, and he doesn’t seem to understand that I can’t finish a project with a 3-week turnaround time in 5 business days. I’ve offered to help with research for him instead, but that’s not good enough for him- he wants me to take control of the whole thing, which I just can’t do.

    My boss also keeps mentioning things he wants me take on, and I have to remind him every conversation that I’ll be out for four weeks and can’t do that. He’s fine with it once I remind him, and if it’s something I can handle within the next week I’ll absolutely do it, but it’s still frustrating having to repeat myself like a broken record.

    There’s also been no conversation about how my boss wants me to handle emails, calls, etc. that I get while I’m gone. I don’t know who I’m supposed to direct people to in my out-of-the-office messages, whether my boss wants to handle things directly or if I’m supposed to list a coworker instead. I also have two ongoing projects that the client might need us to pick up again while I’m out- the work for those has been delegated already, but it’s clear that my boss isn’t thinking about that while assigning other projects to my coworkers and they’re already getting annoyed with things.

    I know most of this isn’t my problem (like my boss assigning too much work), but it’s still frustrating to deal with! My plan is to just get my work completed and get everything in order before my leave starts, and hope that next week isn’t as miserable at it seems to be shaping up to be…

    1. Auntie Social*

      Can you suggest to your boss that you all have a working lunch together to decide these things? You’ve made a list of things like phone coverage and mail but you’re sure Boss has items on his list too.

    2. Kes*

      You might need to have another meeting with your boss explicitly to review the plans for coverage while you’re gone in order to force him to think about these things a bit, now. I would start the conversation by asking about handling the emails and calls, and then bring up your other concerns.
      I think it’s probably better to try and tackle this head-on now, in advance, rather than risk your boss and coworkers being unhappy with issues arising while you’re out and can’t do anything about it (even if it’s obviously not your fault – just, you might be able to do something now).

    3. valentine*

      Make sure everything someone will need access to is accessible and. if possible, set your out of office to send each time. Maybe write an OOO naming your boss as point person and send it to him for approval. (Mine just says I’ll be out until x day/time.)

  65. gecko*

    I’m a software developer. I’m working on a project where I’m (kind of unofficially) the point person, with a coworker who doesn’t do much work/is very slow–I’m the point person for (I think) team dynamics reasons, and because I’d claimed the project and she asked to help out with it.

    I’m a bit worried about it. For instance, for the last couple days she’s been working on a small section that I completed for myself in less than an hour because I needed it for a test. I think she spent a small amount of time going in a completely incorrect direction but mostly hasn’t been doing a lot of work. I don’t know how well it’d go over to have a conversation with this coworker about, you know, is it ok I’m taking point, is it ok if I check up on your work. I think I may just have to do it.

    Any advice on how to handle this kind of project/situation? I have zero management experience, and zero project lead experience, and having it be this unclear doesn’t really help, I think.

    1. Lily B*

      Could you set up regular meetings with her on the project and decide together who’s going to do what by X deadline? Can frame it as a more collaborative thing instead of you trying to manage her, like “Hey, can I get your help laying out a plan for this project? Want to make we don’t duplicate efforts.”

      1. gecko*

        Yeah, making it more collaborative is probably necessary. We already had a meeting and it literally felt like a group project in high school–and I am way beyond high school–where I come in with ideas & it’s not actually collaborative.

        Next week I’ll probably set up another meeting and use more “us” language and see how we can split it up. My worry is, if I’m not point person, I’ll still be babysitting her work but it’ll just be more frustrating.

    2. Kes*

      Since you took on the project yourself initially and have been acting as lead I think you’re fine to go ahead and continue taking the lead. I wouldn’t bother asking if she’s okay with it – I mean, what are you really going to do if she says no. I would just check in with her regularly to see how she’s doing and if she’s going in the right direction, and if you’re concerned on how this looks, frame it more as a daily status update. That will hopefully give her a chance to bring up issues and get help, and give you a chance to speak up if it sounds like she’s going in the wrong direction, and can help ensure you’re not both working on the same thing in parallel and duplicating effort.

  66. Sapphire*

    I manage a newsletter as part of my new job, and part of that is setting deadlines for articles to be due. This last planning meeting, my coworkers said I should set the first draft deadline for a week before the newsletter was supposed to go out (which wouldn’t work for many reasons). I tried to explain that I needed time to edit and give feedback, but my coworkers told me to just talk to our boss.

    Boss came back with an earlier deadline, and I emailed the newsletter team saying “I’d like to propose this earlier deadline instead” because I didn’t want to come off as bossy or bitchy, but I’m wondering if I just should have said “This is the new deadline”? I get the sense that my coworkers feel I shouldn’t be dictating these deadlines, but that’s part of my job managing this newsletter, I would think. I’m going to bring it up to my boss in our next 1:1 but does anyone else have advice?

    1. Four lights*

      It sounds like this is absolutely part of your job. Confirm with your boss. If they have some legitimate rationale why your deadline won’t work, then that could be discussed, but if they just don’t like it then too bad.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I think the straightforward, “This is the new deadline” approach might have been better. In this scenario, it sounds like you had cover from Boss, too. Coworkers told you to talk to Boss, you did, Boss agreed with you. So, “I talked with Boss, and this is the new deadline.” It’s not really a proposal anymore. And yes, I agree that it is totally your job to set the deadline. You can take input, but you make the call.

      And I feel like I want to address the concern over coming off as bossy or bitchy. It’s hard, because it is deeply ingrained in many of us. (And maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but…) A) Clearly stating a deadline is not in the least bit bitchy or bossy. Period. B) If some misguided soul perceives it that way, remember, Bitches get stuff done. Long ago, one of my staffers reminded me of this after I came back from a meeting lamenting that I felt like I had been a bitch in pushing for some clarity to a project that was meandering; she counseled me, “Don’t you know? Bitches get stuff done. And many of us love that about you. If that’s being a bitch, please keep doing it.” I’ve carried her words with me everyday since.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I remember the first time opposing counsel called me a bitch in the courthouse, and I found an older female attorney and told her what happened. She started laughing and said “when they yell “bitch!” that means you won, sweetie!!” Bitch is good.

      2. Sapphire*

        It’s definitely ingrained in me (I’m trans and nonbinary but was socialized as a cis woman)

      3. Sapphire*

        It’s really hard to get out of that mentality that I’m supposed to be “nice” and “accommodate everyone” when I’m in a position of authority, and being anything else (like firm on an earlier deadline) that’s “mean” or “bitchy.”

        This is honestly the first time in my full-time career that I’ve been given this much responsibility and ownership over a project and I really don’t want to screw it up.

  67. Victoria, Please*

    What items go into a good telecommuting policy for a place that’s NEVER allowed it?

    My university does not allow it; if you’re not on campus or officially traveling you have to take PTO no matter if you put in 12 hours on projects. A productive, workable policy would be great obviously, PLUS it would help with the parking nightmare and the carbon footprint. I am thinking of writing a comment to the president suggesting something.

    Here’s what I’ve thought of so far — keep in mind that we are risk-averse, conflict-averse, we love bureaucracy, and we’re unionized:
    * One day a week only, no Fridays
    * Schedule previously arranged with manager for X months block; no spontaneous “I’m working at home tomorrow” or “Can I change my day next week?”
    * Documented child care, no other family care taking duties
    * Must have department-issued laptop and self-supplied working internet, with VPN set up
    * Job description must reflect that core responsibilities do not require 100% face time (i.e. not the department receptionist, sorry)
    * Granted at manager’s discretion only, subject to change and review any time but at least every 12 months. Suggest that managers require telecommuters to send their goals for the day beforehand and a report on accomplishments to manager upon return.

    1. Seriously?*

      If you are unionized then it may make more sense to see if you can get them to push for this. Since it is a change in working conditions they would likely need to get on board anyway and they have more power to negotiate for it with the university.

  68. Should I Ask?*

    Is there any harm in asking to roll over more vacation than the standard amount?

    I have just over two weeks of vacation left in the year, and my company allows for one week to be rolled over. And while I can certainly use up the rest of it between now and the end of the year no problem, I’m getting married next year and having extra time for anything that might come up would just be really nice.

    This feels like ultimate first world problems, because I actually get a really good amount of vacation time (benefits of working for a European-based company). I have obligations in January and February that I need a few days off for, and if I plan to take a few days off for bachelorette and last-minute week-of wedding stuff, I should still be able to take a three week honeymoon (people take vacations that long all the time here, so even that length off won’t be a special ask), so it feels ridiculous to ask for even more.

    I don’t want to seem out of touch, and I’ve only been here for ~9 months so I don’t have a good feel for if this would be a major faux-pas, both on its own or for someone with a short tenure (this is a place people stick around for 10-20 years usually). I have a good relationship with my manager, and I honestly think if it was 100% up to her she would have no issue with it, but since it’s a large company this is probably an HR call all the way. Part of me thinks there’s no harm in asking – if they say no, no biggie, I’m still fine, I can certainly find a way to take 5 days off over the next 3 months. And in the off-chance they allow this for a one-time only exception, it would be great to have that extra time next year. But part of me is worried I’ll look out of touch, or ungrateful, or something else that reflects negatively on me.

    Sorry to ramble, and it feels like such a such a non-problem a lot of people would kill to have, and I recognize how lucky I am to be in this position. In all my previous jobs I’ve had to hoard my vacation time to just take care of obligations, with no time for real vacations, so it seems nuts that I work for somewhere that offers such great vacation time. Again, I recognize this is a TOTAL first-world problem that’s not even a problem, but I want to know what people think.

    1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

      Nah, unless you work with lunatics, this won’t seem out of touch or ungrateful. I would be surprised if they did okay it, but if they say no, I suspect it will be more of a “nope, sorry, policy” than “hell no, what on earth are you thinking asking this of us!”

      1. Should I Ask?*

        Thanks for your insight! I’m fully prepared for and expecting them to say no, I would just hate for a year from now to hear “oh of course we could have made a one-time exception, you should have just asked!”.

    2. JessicaTate*

      It’s worth an ask, and I agree it won’t come off as ungrateful. Worst case, they’re really strict on the policy and it’s a no-go. Once upon a time, I was in a company that capped how much leave you could carry-over each year, but managers/HR could make these exceptions on a case-by-case basis. One of the things you needed was a clear plan of how you were going to spend down the vacation balance in the new year. So, I might fold that into your request – your planned dates for spending down the roll-over + the new accrual in 2019. It helps mitigate the risk that they’re going to have to pay out the value of those days (which is usually why companies don’t let you accrue days indefinitely – they have to pay it out if you leave, etc.)

      2. pleaset*

        My organization loosened the rollover policy when for the first time the head of HR and the COO above that person both were going to lose a few days due to not being able to use it in time.

        I’d been losing an average of a day a year for several years and had kept asking them to change the policy, but they wouldn’t until it affected them…..

    3. Seriously?*

      I don’t see why asking (but not pushing) would reflect badly on you. I would probably talk to your supervisor first to see what she thought.

    4. Bex*

      Weddings are often viewed as special circumstances, so I think it’s fine to ask about rolling over the extra week. I would phrase it like you did here- you totally understand if it’s not possible, but you just wanted to check.

    5. Persimmmons*

      I think if you make it clear that it’s a special one-time circumstance for your wedding, it wouldn’t go over poorly. They may not say yes, but I don’t think they’d judge you negatively for asking.

  69. Mr Universe*

    Do you guys ever have a boss who’s very e-mail and message notification fills you with dread? Like, you KNOW he or she is never writing to ask how your cat is. It is always an angry criticism of things you didn’t even realise you did wrong. Or a list of things he or she wants done NOW.
    I currently have one, and I think even my coworkers have sensed that the boss REALLY doesn’t like me.

    1. Ladylike*

      If you and your coworkers all strongly feel that your boss doesn’t like you, you should probably be aggressively job-hunting. It’s possible the boss doesn’t realize he/she is coming across that way. I had a boss once who would vent his frustrations on me when he was upset, but then he would act shocked/concerned when I told him his behavior was inappropriate and had bothered me. So, if there’s a chance your boss doesn’t realize he’s being a jerk, talking to him about your perception might help. But sadly, if everyone around you seems to get along ok with the boss and they’re saying, “WOW, he really hates you!”, I think you need to start making a backup plan, like yesterday.

      1. Mr Universe*

        I definitely agree. I have started sending out resumes and hoping for some results. While technically this boss is only one out of many (most other bosses don’t seem to have a problem with me), he is one of the pioneers of the office and has far more professional reach than I ever have.

    2. Anon's Last Day*

      As someone waited years hoping their boss would get better and never did– I have to agree with ladylike about the job searching. I have felt the EXACT same pang of dread.

      1. Mr Universe*

        Thanks Anon’s Last Day. We had a rocky start, but I had always presumed that it was because I was new to the office and we would warm up to each other eventually. Now, 2 years on, it is still colder than the antarctic.

  70. Georgia*

    If an employee clocks out before packing up their things and preparing to leave, is it okay for a boss to ask them to clock out earlier so that they leave earlier?

    1. Dr. Doll*

      Do you mean clocking out AFTER packing up? In that case, yes I think it’s okay to say “Hey, you need to be working while on the clock, so please make sure that you clock out as soon as you log out (or whatever).”

    2. Ladylike*

      It sounds like the issue is the employee clocks out at the appointed time, then holds someone else “hostage” while they wait on the employee to pack up his/her things, because the “hostage” can’t leave until the employee is packed up and ready to go. For me, the more logical answer would be to reassure the employee that it’s OK to pack up before clocking out, and that he/she should be ready to walk out the door upon clocking out.

      1. Georgia*

        I don’t know if “hostage” is accurate. To the point of the comment above, my boss has said that I have to clock out before packing up/using the restroom etc, but now she is asking me to clock out earlier so that I can leave earlier.

        1. Ladylike*

          Of course I meant the word “hostage” facetiously. I just meant that if your boss feels she can’t leave until you’ve packed up, maybe she’s irritated that you’re off the clock but still lingering too long in the office. It sounds like the message is, “It takes you too long to get out the door”. Maybe she has to pick up her kids, or be somewhere else right after work, or just generally feels like she can’t leave until you do. It is a little annoying that she forbids you to pack up before clocking out, but still expects you to be out the door by a certain time. At any rate, as long as you’re not losing pay over it, I would just go along with what she’s asking.

        2. Bea*

          Is not normal to have to clock out to use the restroom or pack up your things. Your boss is pinching all the wrong pennies.

    3. Kathenus*

      It sounds like two things, from my reading of this. One is the boss asking for you to clock out before packing up – that is pretty normal and fair, in my opinion. The second sounds like she is asking for an earlier shift end time (clock out earlier so leave earlier), and as the boss this is also within her prerogative.

    4. valentine*

      If you’re hourly non-exempt and it shorts your hours, you can push back on that. Ask why and see if there’s another way to reach her objective. Maybe if you can pile/bag your stuff as you’re done with it and can swiftly leave after clocking out, then pack up elsewhere, she won’t care what time it is. Unless you’re sharing a space where someone else needs to clock in or someone’s waiting on you so they can lock up, I am thinking she doesn’t like seeing the packing, that it looks like you’re moving house. If the packing is work and not your personal belongings, it’s probably work that needs to be paid.

  71. Babyface*

    I’m sure this problem has been addressed on AAM before, but I’m going to throw it out there anyway because my circumstances might be a little unique. I’m 41 and I’ve been in the full-time, professional work force since the age of 19. I have a unique skill set that is fairly sought-after, and I try my best to be a high performer. I’ve been complimented by several managers for keeping a calm head and maintaining professionalism in stressful situations. I like to think I’m intelligent and well-spoken. I don’t say any of that to brag…I’m just trying to paint a picture that I behave very maturely at work, and I think I exude confidence and know-how.

    But I look young! Most people think I’m barely 30, and others have recently guessed me to be in my mid-20’s. And I’m also a female working in a very male-dominated field, which unfortunately has its share of chauvinism. What this means is that many people assume that because I’m female and (they think) just starting my career, I have no idea what I’m talking about. People push back when I give instructions and go over my head to confirm decisions. I’ve really begun to make an effort over the last few years to speak more directly and remove tone-softening words when I’m giving instructions. Still, I’m on the receiving end of a lot of “mansplaining”. This morning I was “mansplained” something by an older woman…from a vendor…who was trying to win our business!

    To add to the challenges, the company I currently work for makes a product in the health care realm, so I have to wear my hair pulled up most of the time, and can only wear minimal make-up, no nail polish, and no jewelry. Uniforms are required and are very casual in nature (jeans and a company shirt). So there’s very little I can do to “mature” my outward appearance at work.

    I smile a lot and I’m warm and friendly, but I don’t know if I could change that if I wanted to. I have no problem speaking my mind, but I may come across as somewhat quiet upon first meeting me. I like to listen and formulate thoughts and opinions before I speak, especially when a topic is new to me (I think that’s just common sense). But I *do* speak…I’m not afraid to express myself and jump into the conversation during meetings, give presentations, openly disagree, etc. I just do it without aggressiveness or excessive emotion.

    Is this just something I’m going to battle until I start to look older, or are there subtle ways to assert and establish myself as someone with 20+ years of experience, upon first meeting new people?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I think ensuring that your posture/body language projects confidence can help — straight spine and shoulders can say a lot. Making sure you’re speaking in a loud enough volume with enough projection may also be beneficial if you aren’t already. If you talk with your hands a lot, try not to over do it. I can be in the same boat as you sometimes, but I also play a bit of a chameleon — sometimes people peg me as fresh out of college when I’m slumming at the grocer on the weekend and other times people aren’t sure where I fall on the spectrum (I’m early 30s) when I’ve put effort into how I look.

      For your hair being pulled back, maybe instead of doing a ponytail or bun, try doing something a little more like a chignon or French twist or something that says older — they don’t have to be black tie perfect (look at Pinterest?). Look at the fit of your clothes; are they clean and free of holes? Are they too baggy/tight? What about your shoes? Do you have to carry a bag of some fashion with you? I switched away from a backpack for work and carry a leather laptop tote that still holds all the same items but looks more professional. If you need to shop for stuff, try a thrift store first. Heaven knows new things can cost way more than necessary.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And a pair of glasses can give you instant gravitas. I have freckles and kind of a young face, so I wore them before I needed to wear them. When someone mansplains to you, slide the glasses halfway down your nose, look over the top of the frames and say “stop”. Especially a vendor!!

      2. Babyface*

        All good points. My shoes have to be safety toe and I did select a fairly casual-looking pair. But I could find an alternative pair that look dressier. I’ve been thinking of having another pair anyway, just so I can rotate. I think the fit of my clothes is good and I tend towards the dressier of the uniform shirts we’re allowed to choose from, on most days. Oddly enough, we actually have to carry our personal belongings inside of backpacks…it’s a weird rule. I am definitely not a backpack person. It’s interesting you bring that up, because I was carrying the backpack when I met our visitor this morning. It makes sense that it may have added to the overall impression that I’m younger. I can at least try to avoid carrying it when meeting new people. All great tips – thanks!

        1. Ali G*

          Do you ever make small talk with these folks? I’m in the same boat – I just turned 40, still get carded, and worse, I am short and blonde (double whammy – seriously height =/= age people).
          I will engage in small talk and try to make “generational” comments when I can.
          Examples:
          Plaid flannel is back? Is it 1996? Too bad I got rid of all mine after college!
          Or if someone is talking about a remake of a movie “oh I haven’t seen that, but I remember the original – I saw it in high school. God that must have been like 20 years ago!”
          Stuff like that – it’s subtle but make someone stop and do a little mental math and realize you might not be as green as they think you are.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Does jewelry mean watches, too? If you can wear a watch, a high-end identifiable one will signal social class, which can be mistaken for gravitas. I’m thinking of the watch equivalent of a Coach bag-simple and classic, but identifiable by people who care about that sort of thing.

    3. Crylo Ren*

      Aside from the already-stated body language and wardrobe modification suggestions, are there any peers who you trust and who you could ask for their opinion or perception of you? Maybe there is something else about you or the way that you carry yourself that is causing you to leave an initial impression of youth or inexperience with people who don’t know you that well.

      Also, if people are questioning your authority, maybe something can be said directly to them when it happens, either to explain your reasoning (if it seems the issue is stemming from that), or to let them know you see them and that it’s not the best way to handle things. AAM has a lot of good scripts for that.

    4. Jane of all Trades*

      Ugh! In addition to what the others have said, at old job I sometimes had a problem where men who were about 15-20 years older would question my authority because of my age (I know in your case it’s perceived age, but hear me out). In my case, it helped to be very assertive right out of the gate, and once we had established where I fit in I could relax a little more. So what I used to do when somebody questioned my authority was to say something like “I’m not asking you,
      I’m telling you to do X.” And if somebody interrupted me to mansplain things I’d say something along the lines of “I’m going to finish my thought / please don’t cut me off / I’m aware of that, which is why I decided to do a, b, and c.”
      I don’t love having to fight these kinds of battles but I think it helps to present a more assertive and authoritative than you would otherwise.

  72. Dr. Doll*

    I have to have a Serious Talk with the broken stair on my team today, sigh. Last Friday when I was out sick, she took on a piece of work. Did about 10% of the work and called it complete. When questioned on it, she began again and within a very few minutes was complaining that it was sooooo much work, couldn’t a student worker do this? She is not busy at all because this is a slow time for us, there was no excuse for not wanting to do the task. This is the most egregious it’s ever been. If I’d overheard this conversation I would have come boiling out of my office and dealt with it right then. I just heard about it yesterday because the person who needed help with their project was out on a serious issue until then. And, sigh, it turns out that the broken stair is out sick today. I may have to do this over email, which I sure do not want to do.

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Are you this person’s manager? If they really are a broken stair, and you’re the manager, it sounds like it’s time to fix the stair. If you’re not the manager, make sure the manager is aware of what happened and the impact it’s having on others. Be factual when you convey this information, not just annoyed, but be clear that this behavior is causing problems.

      1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        And rereading your post and my reply, it sounds like I’m saying “you’re not doing your job” when what I meant to say was more like “you should feel like you’re doing the right thing by having your Serious Talk, even though this is super unpleasant to deal with”. Sorry if I came off as critical – I meant to be supportive!

        1. Dr. Doll*

          Thank you! This IS a very hard part of the job and it would be easier if I was the manager… but I’m the lead.
          Our manager is quite removed. What usually happens is, I bring something up and things get better for a while and then slide back. I know I know I know I know the solution is document — the reason I am reluctant to do that is twofold: 1) I have *other more important work to do* and 2) how awful it is for my own well being to be pouncing on everything someone does wrong.

          1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

            I 100% hear you on both of those. It’s so frustrating to have to spend MORE time dealing with something that’s already wasting your time.

            Do you have documentation of the pattern of “things get better and then slide back”, maybe in the form of past emails to your manager about the previous incidents? If so, it might be useful to have that info the next time you talk with your manager about this person. “This incident happened, and this has been a pattern for the last 18 months. Here are the times we’ve dealt with this before (dates, dates, dates). Though each of these incidents have been a little different, there’s a pattern of things getting better when you talk to them but then another time-wasting problem coming up again a few months later. What can we do to keep it from continuing to happen?”

            But if your manager won’t manage, ugh.

            1. valentine*

              The documentation can be brief, bare facts: X date: Turned in 10% of Y; deemed complete. X+3 date: Discussed Y. Began again; complained of burden. (Couldn’t she have picked up where she left off?) Has someone asked her why she thought 10% was complete or is it known she will do only what she wants unless someone confronts her about it? You can say she doesn’t seem happy and is this really the role for her, unless you think it’ll backfire and she’ll double down because she wants to keep this cushy job.

  73. RVG*

    Thanks to everything I learned from Ask A Manager, I finally escaped bureaucracy hell into a dream job– or as close as can be to a dream job for me! Working from home as a technical writer– booyeah!

    Thanks, Alison!

    3. Persimmons*

      Awesome! There’s someone above looking to break into that field, so your journey may be worth sharing in the appropriate thread.

  74. JS#2*

    I need some advice about how to deal a coworker who’s publicly against diversity training.

    I work at a university that has been focused on ramping up diversity efforts, which include training sessions about things like microaggressions, implicit bias, stereotype threats, etc. We have a university-wide committee that works on issues related to diversity, as well as a committee at our department level that coordinates more specific efforts and training in our department.

    Recently, one of our coworkers shared documents from the university committee about the (racist, sexist, classist) history of certain words and phrases, encouraging us to avoid using them. In direct response, Jeff, a coworker, emailed the whole department to share a webpage he made (that is housed on our official website). The webpage lists references to all the psychological studies that refute the existence of microaggressions, implicit bias, and stereotype threats. It is a long list, and obviously took quite some time to do. Jeff has strong feelings about this and is disturbed by the way the concepts of microaggressions / implicit bias are spreading through academia. He invited others to submit additional references and mentioned the list had been endorsed by a psychology professor.

    I don’t have any problem with Jeff having these personal point of views, but on a professional level, it brings up some thorny issues in our particular department.

    (1) Our department is professionally committed to presenting research as something that needs to be approached from an unbiased starting point. The sources he cites are ALL against the existence of microaggressions, etc. He does not cite the opposing view. Some in our department feel that this brings into question his ability to stay professionally neutral when he works with students and other faculty.

    (2) Academic freedom vs. university policy. Jeff has a right to hold his views, but because his webpage is associated with our official department website, it implies we are endorsing his point of view, which is in direct conflict with university policy.

    (3) The department committee is obviously offended, but they haven’t decided how to address it, except to speak to Jeff’s supervisor. To my knowledge, no one in the department has spoken with Jeff yet.

    Does anyone have any advice about how to approach this? Is this something his supervisor can talk to him directly about? Is it something that should be publicly, but indirectly addressed? Is it fair to ask him to take down the webpage? Help!

    1. Higher ed*

      Holy heck, yes, that page needs to come down immediately. Talk to his supervisor, like, yesterday.

        1. JS#2*

          I should specify here that he (and others) have permission to create pages as part of their job duties. These pages are very focused in scope and are designed to aide instruction, so it’s an essential part of his position’s responsibilities. I wish we could revoke those permissions…

    2. KayEss*

      I used to manage a university website out of the Marketing & Communications department, and this would have been a Big Deal. Our website philosophy was that every page hosted by the university and/or bearing university branding was essentially a marketing piece and we had authority to deal with it as such. It sounds like your university may have a different view of website use–we had no personal faculty/staff pages, everyone who was able to create pages or make edits was vetted and trained, and basically this could not happen without someone grossly misusing the system–but check with whoever is in charge of it (possibly some poor schmuck in IT) about whether there’s an appropriate use policy or something similar that could apply. Alternately, you could try taking the issue to whoever is in charge of university PR issues, with the concern that it reflects poorly on the university to external parties and could become an issue.

      1. JS#2*

        Our university has a similar way of handling content on websites, but in our department it gets weird. There are a few staff and IT who have access to content on our main website, but there are several faculty and staff (like Jeff) who need to create sub-pages as part of their job duties. So they have limited access to create certain types of pages that are supposed to support instruction (and are entirely non-controversial in any way). They aren’t supposed to be used as personal pages.

        1. KayEss*

          Yeah, that falls under “grossly misusing the system” in regard to how it could have been possible where I worked, but we would have come down on it like a ton of bricks. Definitely check with whoever is in charge of the overall website (whether IT or Marketing/PR) about the written policy on site use and content (or just check the policy if you have it) and use that to bring up to Jeff and/or his manager that the page is inappropriate and needs to come down. If that doesn’t get results, escalate to whoever is in charge of the website that it’s in violation of policy and Jeff is misusing his access. If Jeff wants to make an academic freedom issue of it, that’s out of your hands and will be between him, the policy creator/managers, and legal/compliance.

          If there isn’t a written policy about appropriate site content, things get trickier… in that case I would consider taking the concern to a combination of the people in charge of the website and the people in charge of PR, if they’re not the same department. If they can’t handle it, they should be able to assess who it should go to next.

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I don’t have much advice (I work in elementary education and know higher ed academia has a lot of differences), but wanted to support you. I, too, would be troubled by this. Especially if he is a professor/instructor who has power over students (grading, references, etc.). Does the university have an official diversity/multiculturalism statement? If so, I feel like that would be helpful to cite when talking to him.

      I’m not sure what you mean by “Is it something that should be publicly, but indirectly addressed?” If you mean something like sending out an all-faculty email about policies and hoping he gets the message, then no, I think that’s too passive and is more likely to either be ineffective or stir up drama as people gossip about why the email was sent. I think it’s better to deal with it directly. Personally, I think it would be fair to ask him to take down the webpage, or host it somewhere other than the university’s servers, but it could be a can of worms depending on what the policies are at the university about faculty’s rights to political speech. (Could a professor have a webpage that supported/stated lack of support for a president’s tax bill, for example? I can certainly imagine cases that would be clearly over the line, like if a professor put up a webpage denying the Holocaust, but this seems less clear-cut than that.)

      1. Reba*

        It’s not totally clear to me whether Jeff is faculty or staff. Either way, YIKES, but there are likely different standards in play depending on the status, with norms of academic freedom of thought vs. representing the institution in play.

        I think it should be removed and I think an email to the department noting the removal and explaining the rationale/making everyone aware of whatever policy is applicable would be good. Don’t sweep it under the rug, I guess.

        1. JS#2*

          Sorry, I was trying to not be TOO specific, but he is considered faculty, which is why it’s so thorny about freedom of thought. It’s definitely going to kick up a hornet’s nest, whatever we do. But you’re right that we can’t sweep it under the rug! We’re generally considered a “get along” kind of group, so addressing things head on is rarely a thing!

          1. valentine*

            He’s fighting the diversity mission. It would make sense if he posted studies supporting the work of the initiative, but only if that relates to his particular job. He’s violating his brief by making personal pages on employer property. The university doesn’t have to host his freedom of thought. Do they claim to follow EEOC?I wish we could revoke those permissions… You can and should. You can remove/reassign those duties (or include an approval process, which you should have, anyway, to ensure brand adherence) until he passes the diversity training.

    4. Seriously?*

      Yes. It is hosted on the university website so the university is allowed to control what is on it. If it was a personal website that was not affiliated with the university it would be trickier. The person who is in charge of the department website should take it down ASAP.

      1. Dr. Doll*

        I’m amazed he was able to put something up in the department website without anyone else approving it. Our faculty and staff *can* have personal websites, but they’d be designated something like http://www.ourU.edu/~doll, not http://www.ourU.edu/dept/~antidiversity. Anything with dept in the URL would have to go through layers of approval. Now, a personal page like ~doll could have almost anything on it in practice; unless it was truly egregious no one will tell a faculty member what they can have on their own page.

        Who is this random psychology professor who endorses the list? That’s a ridiculous thing to say in academia. You need to be able to say someone’s name and it had better be a big one.

        1. Seriously?*

          My university allows people to use Adobe Contribute to update their pages. Technically they do go though another person for approval, but he doesn’t actually pay attention. It wouldn’t surprise me if that is what happened.

    5. Emily*

      Assume every interaction anyone has with Jeff about this is going to wind up being public and make sure it’s handled 100% in line with the policies of the university, and also that those policies are being more broadly enforced. For instance, I would definitely not approach this as “you’re offending people, take it down.”

      Academic freedom vs. university policy is a matter for your university’s lawyers to figure out and I would involve them unless there’s a very clear path forward. (Like, your department never hosts websites of any sort that go beyond the scope of research, and if he posted a website showcasing just the positive research about this, he’d also be asked to take it down.) Don’t put anything in writing that you’re not ok with being made public and that the leadership of your university wouldn’t support you regarding.

      Look up how this played out at Duke. The professor did wind up resigning, but I am sure this did not play out the way they wanted it to in the media.

    6. Student*

      Three thoughts:

      1) Lots of diversity initiatives and diversity trainings have little to no evidence to support them. Some diversity trainings actually have been demonstrated to make things worse, in the sense of reinforcing biases. Many, many diversity training things are made up by people with no qualifications whatsoever, with no testing or research or any underpinning beyond an idea somebody had. They are offered by companies as a kind of legal CYA measure – the Company (for you, University) has stated to every employee that they are in favor of inclusiveness. Then, when trouble shows up, the University can point to the training and say “We told them all to be nice to minorities, therefore you can’t sue us, the University, successfully even if there is widespread demonstrable actual discrimination – you’ll have to chase down every individual bad actor on your own instead.”

      So, are you sure you aren’t committing the exact same sin #1 your co-worker is committing, but on the other side of the fence?

      2) Maybe one of your many diversity committees should sit down and make an actual, implemented policy (with real outlined expectations, penalties, appeals, etc.) on how to handle problems exactly like this. Discuss and think through the free speech vs actively supporting diversity thing, the for-and-against research, what kind of consequences are merited and in-line with other policies at your university for breaking the policy. Weigh out the science for and against his argument and decide what would be an accurate, proportional, academic way to portray your findings. That sounds like the kind of thing that would improve diversity more so than a lot of other things I’ve seen diversity committees tackle.

      3) Maybe this guy is untouchable – usually, guys who do this kind of bull are doing it because they know you can’t stop them. They enjoy watching you try and fail to unseat them. In that case, try to acknowledge that you have an untouchable bad actor in your department and do the reasonable things you can do to work around your very own broken stair. Subtly steer minority students away from working with him, and try to actually cushion them if they have to work with him. Focus more time on trying to quantifiable improvements for your department’s minority groups instead of on getting huffy at a guy you can’t fix. Realize that the guy you can’t fix or really address in any way is a symptom of a problem in academia that lets bias move in and fester; try to identify why he’s untouchable and start dismantling THAT instead of wasting breath on trying to change him.

      1. JS#2*

        (1) I totally understand this! I get where you’re coming from on this. Bad trainings can definitely be damaging. I can only speak from my personal experience with the diversity trainings, which have been largely positive in that they’re taught by properly credentialed people, and the content seems carefully designed to open conversations instead of closing them down. That’s why I think folks want to be careful about how to approach this, because we don’t want to stop Jeff from having his point of view or contributing to the conversation.

        (2) Yeah, I think that’s a great idea. It certainly would help us decide on appropriate actions when something like this happens again and will let us be fairer.

        (3) I think this is a great point. Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

    7. ToodieCat*

      Totally devil’s advocate, and I know nothing about working in higher ed, but … do the training classes that you’re providing start with the neutral, maybe-yes/maybe-no stance on those topics? Or just one side that is the side different than Jeff’s? (Like I said, totally devil’s advocate.)

      1. JS#2*

        From my experience, the training classes present things like “Here is a thing that happens any maybe it’s implicit bias but you can never know for sure. Here’s how to appropriately deal with it given that you can never know for sure why this person said or did this thing.” I really respect the trainer we had, but I admit it’s wholly possible that another person, like Jeff, might have had a different experience.

    8. BluntBunny*

      The fact that he has gone out of his way to create this public page on the university’s website as a direct result of someone sharing examples of words and phrases that are problematic is concerning. It sends a message to staff and students that their thoughts and feelings do not matter. Is he really trying to argue that there are no negative effects to calling black people monkeys or that Asians are terrorist etc and that none of these people have ever been upset by this? You could be able to find people that don’t mind but you won’t find anyone who is happy to be called these things and that is evidence enough to stop. Ignoring the moral/ethic reasons there is also no logical reason to be opposed to learning about and avoiding micro aggressions. On the studies themselves badly conducted and inaccurate studies are published all the time not all retracted. If you want to avoid a conversation that could get personal and awkward perhaps critically analysing the article, sources, papers and method used, to argue that the evidence he is providing are not reputable or reliable would be easier.

    9. Ann O.*

      It seems to me like the major issue is that he created this page in a way that makes it look like part of the official department website. This aspect seems cut and dried. He misused his privileges, and he cannot do that. If your department doesn’t have standards about this, you need some yesterday (but advocate for them as soon as possible). Just because he has the ability to create pages as part of his job shouldn’t mean that he can do them with no content guidelines or review.

      However, in regards to his neutrality, no research can be approached by a human being from an unbiased starting point, so I don’t know what you mean by “Our department is professionally committed to presenting research as something that needs to be approached from an unbiased starting point.” What does this neutrality translate to in practice and why does Jeff having a standpoint here call his ability to be professionally neutral into question any more than other people having a standpoint. That’s one I think you all should soul search and really think about whether there’s a double standard here. At least based in the context provided, Jeff’s list doesn’t seem substantively less neutral than the initial list the co-worker sent. Yet only Jeff’s professional neutrality is being questioned.

  75. LeavingNow*

    Are there any good resources for what the documentation you create during your notice should look like? I’m leaving my first job after 6 years and I don’t know what’s too little and what’s too extensive. A lot of my role revolves around design and marketing. While I’d assume my replacement would have a basic knowledge of the software that is standard in my field, it doesn’t seem that my current employer is intending to hire someone with the same background—instead, it sounds like the plan is to by train current employees how to do different parts of my job. While I know that I should do the best I can to explain who my contacts are and what my logins are for other parts of my job, isn’t it a little to assume that I can explain how to fully use programs that I went to college to learn? Also…How should I approach this with my employer if they feel the documentation I leave isn’t extensive enough? I want to fulfill my professional obligations but feel that I need to manage these expectations (I just don’t have a great sense of what the norms are to begin with).

    1. Four lights*

      In the past I’ve created a list of clients/projects and what the current status is. I’ve also had instructions for common tasks. Ultimately, you can only prepare so much and whoever takes over is going to have a learning curve. I would ask your manager what they expect you to prepare. You could also bring up with them now that there might be a bigger learning curve for the programs. You could put together user manuals and resources, and see if there are any tutorials the new person could use.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It is not your job to ensure the next person has the basic skills necessary to perform the job. Leave a list of important contacts and logins, but don’t leave training materials for using the software – your employer can provide that or they can hire someone who already possesses that knowledge.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Assume that the next person will have the same basic skills that you have — your job is to tell them the status of any projects and any contacts they should have.

      2. Artemesia*

        And if your manager wants you to leave detailed guidelines for those basic skills you say ‘you should hire someone who knows how to use ‘oursoftware’ or plan to provide extensive training when you hire; it takes months to master the basic skills needed to do the job; it is beyond the scope of instructions I can leave. I am preparing information about our clients, our current projects and our next deadlines.’

    4. LQ*

      Your documentation in general should be company or policy/process/procedure specific. Software (unless it is proprietary) training your company can always send them out of house to do.

      I had to split up my job to many different areas. I insisted (I have enough capital to do that) that they all get basic SharePoint training. But then I documented procedures for naming conventions, where specific kinds of documents should be housed, what the process for permissions and access should be, who should be allowed to do certain things, and what happens when it all goes up in flames. Things that are about your company and that are specific to the company are what you should document.
      The logo always goes in the right hand corner at 100×100 px, the versions are in this folder, etc etc. If they need photoshop, the company should send them to photoshop training. Definitely not your role to do that.

  76. TGIF in Texas*

    I started a new part time job yesterday.

    The person doing my intake has been with this nonprofit organization for 40 years, so not only is she the historian she seems like she’s going to be office gossip.

    She gave me a key to the doors that exit out into the office hallway. The office keep the doors locked from the outside. And I quote, “You have to go in and out of the front door (which happens to be next to her desk) otherwise it’s considered that you’re sneaking out.”

    Later on that I ran into a co-worker, in the bathroom. As we returned to the office, I headed for the front door; she said ‘oh you can go in the door closest to the restroom.’

    You should prove interesting.

    1. Temperance*

      Hmmmm. I wouldn’t listen to anything that she says, and use whatever door you feel like using. You don’t need to give this lady the ability to track your every move.

      1. TGIF in Texas*

        Agree. I’ve learned her thorough hatred for a speck of water on the stainless steel kitchen sink, that she hasn’t quite forgiven the team for throwing away some of her filing boxes when she was away from the office (it was a year ago), and that we’re all ‘girls’ to her (everyone but the ED is a woman).

        Let’s say I’m keeping strict time watch on my 20-25 hours a week.

        1. valentine*

          Unless your supervisor can get her to cut this out, I would reply “women” each time and, if she blathers on, possibly recite “This Is the Song That Doesn’t End” until she shuts up or moves on to actual work. Hopefully, she would then start racing you to say women. If the ED is your supervisor, you can tell him this is sexist and makes the office look bad. Ugh.

  77. wirt*

    I’ve been at my first job after uni for almost a year now. The pay isn’t the greatest so I’ve been working really hard in order to receive a good reference in the future. References have always been a big stressor for me since I struggle to build relationships with anxiety.

    Anyway, I’ve learned a lot of PowerShell, Python, and Java in order to automate some of the repetitive tasks of my job in my free time. My manager noticed this and told her boss (the CEO) who then asked me to create a program for them that they would sell to clients. I told them that learning to code was just a hobby for me and that my skill level probably wasn’t suitable for the task. I thought this would be it, but instead, they asked me to learn “how to make a program” in my free time. My salary is nowhere near that of a developer and I feel like it is unfair for them to delegate how I spend my off-hours. However, I’m terrified that if I push-back harder it’ll upset them and I can say goodbye to a good reference at my first professional job.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Four lights*

      Free time–is that time outside of work? That doesn’t seem right. It also sounds like this work is significantly different than your job description-right? You could push back by saying that since this would be a change in job duties you would require a raise, and/or that in order to correctly learn they would need to give you money to take a class. You could also point out that it’s not enough to “make a program”–you would have to provide support to the customer and constantly update it, etc. You could look up this process and present it to them to show that it’s a lot bigger project than they may be thinking of.

      1. wirt*

        Yes, they asked me to learn outside of work hours and it is not within my job duties. I am hesitant to ask for a raise because while I have been working here, every raise request by other coworkers has been denied. I think like gecko said below, they do not understand the time/effort commitment so I think I’ll present to them that it is a bigger project than what they’re thinking of.

        Thank you guys both for taking the time to reply.

    2. gecko*

      “I’m excited to do this, but I’ll have to do the studying and development work during the work day. Do you think I could free up a couple hours at the end of every day to work on this?”

      You’re right that if you were going to be working after hours like that you should be pulling a developers’ salary. It’s possible the CEO doesn’t entirely understand the time/effort commitment as well, so you could possibly talk to your boss about your concerns that you have too many afterwork obligations to work out-of-office on it.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Or, “If you’re not going to pay me to do it, then I’ll create it and sell my software/intellectual property to the clients.” Heck, find out what kind of software they’re thinking of. You could make some coin.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If they want you to make a product they can sell to clients, they should pay you for the time you spend making it. That includes training time, whether that’s self-directed (you teach yourself things), or sending you to a formal course in PowerShell/Python/Java/whatever. And the time doing the design/UX work (what does it look like and how do users interact with it). And the time documenting how it works. And the time testing it. And the time fixing the bugs. And the time fixing the other bugs that were revealed when you fixed the first batch of bugs.

      Also, demand specifications. Real, detailed specifications. These sound like the sort of people who will go out of scope, and it’s easier to identify that when you have a starting specification of what’s in scope. The spec won’t prevent this from happening – but it will give you a reference point for when it does. (I’m in software – stuff always goes out of scope, but it’s easier to push back when you know what the scope was supposed to be.)

      Also pretty much everything Four lights and Gecko said.

    4. LilySparrow*

      “I’m sorry, I can’t devote unpaid time to such a complex project. If you’d like to talk about restructuring my compensation, or working out a license agreement for products I develop on my own time, I’d be happy to discuss it.”

      In other words, if they aren’t paying you, they don’t own it. If they want to sell it for you and give you a percentage, that’s a good option.

  78. Cersei*

    Do I look like a job hopper? I’ve had 3 temp jobs in the last year and a half and I was really hoping for 2 of them to turn into full-time jobs, especially my last one. But while the managers all liked me and were happy with me, the companies either got into financial troubles or a major project was canceled and I was left with basically no work to do all day. Of course, the higher-ups don’t want to pay for people to come into work when there’s not enough work for them, so I was the first to go as a temp. I was especially bummed at my last job because everyone had been praising my work and I felt I was fitting in quite well, my manager liked me a lot (and promised me references). Prior to my temp jobs I had a permanent job but I had to leave after 6 months only – I had to move cross country because my husband’s job. There’s not a risk of this happening again though. So am I a job hopper?

    1. gecko*

      I think it’s OK because you were temping. Maybe stick the temp jobs together? Temp work, company A March – October, Company B November-December, etc.

      Good luck!

    2. Jadelyn*

      Temp jobs don’t really “count” toward one’s tenure record at jobs. The nature of temp work is that it’s short-term, and people know that. There may be some people out there who get snotty about temp work and treat it like job hopping, but they’re definitely the minority. I wouldn’t worry about it. Especially since it sounds like you’re early-career, with only one job prior to the temp jobs? Temping to break into a field is not wholly uncommon, so if your resume came across my desk for a role I’d ask about that first six-month job, but I wouldn’t even think twice about the temp jobs. (And since you had a Real Reason for leaving that first job, assuming the rest of your qualifications matched up and you interviewed well, I’d have no qualms about hiring you.)

      Were all the jobs via the same agency? If so, you can lump them together on your resume under the agency as company name, to make it super clear what was happening there.

      1. Cersei*

        2 of them were with the same agency. I have lumped them together in my resume and I’ve made it very clear that all of them were temp jobs but yesterday a recruiter asked me why I only stayed at one job for 4 months. Well, not because I wouldn’t have liked to stay longer, that’s for sure!

        I’m not new to working but I went to graduate school and switched fields, so I don’t list all the jobs I had prior to that because they’re not relevant anymore.

        Also, I think I had an easier time getting interviews last time I was job hunting. I might be imagining things but I think that employers are turned off by the short nature of my previous jobs. I guess I’ll just start working on my skills more and hope for the best.

        1. Jadelyn*

          If you’ve got resume space for it, you might put abbreviated versions of your prior jobs on under “other experience”, just to demonstrate a track record. And I guess just emphasize “temporary” for the titles of the other ones.

          2. Elizabeth the Ginger*

            Yes – when I was last job-hunting, my last position had been a one-year maternity leave replacement. A recruiter told me to put “(family leave replacement, one year position)” right after the job title to really highlight the reason why I was job-hunting after such a short stint at the school.

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I agree with gecko – potential employers are likely to get concerned if it looks like you have a history of getting bored with a job and moving on quickly by choice, but temping, doing short contracts, etc. isn’t in the same boat. The six-month stint before that isn’t ideal but as long as you’ve had some longer jobs prior to that I wouldn’t worry about it.

    4. Seriously?*

      Nope. Make it clear that you were working temp positions. You didn’t quit, the position ended. If they are willing to be references it is even better.

  79. Jadelyn*

    I just want to say thanks to the people who responded to my questions on behalf of a friend about interviewing for a job in academia-land last week. He just heard back yesterday and he got the job! :)

  80. zora*

    Well, it’s official. Our small office is moving in with a slightly larger existing office. (Acquisition situation). And supposedly by the end of the month(!!!)

    Tips and Tricks for moving an office? We are definitely hiring a moving company, but just any things before, during or after the move that worked well for you? Or didn’t go well, and you wish had been anticipated?

    I’m especially worried about making it as seamless for my team as possible, even on a short timeline. Thank you!

    1. Lily Rowan*

      The last time my office moved, I’m pretty sure we packed up on Thursday, worked from home Friday, and IT and other operational folks worked all weekend, but everything was there when we came in on Monday. That felt pretty seamless, even though I know it’s because a lot of people put in a lot of overtime.

      1. zora*

        That’s what I’m going for. Luckily, most of the team is all at a big industry conference for 2 days, so I’m trying to move the office those days, and have the remaining 2 people work from home those days. So, I can move everyone without having to work on the weekend. Fingers crossed that timing works out!! ;)

    2. Earthwalker*

      Check to see if you need to bring your chair, wastebasket, phone, phone cable, and power strip. In some offices those items belong with the facility and in some they belong with the employee. Nothing worse than getting to the new place and finding that they’re not part of the facility offerings and now you haven’t any.

      1. zora*

        Great reminder.
        I’m in charge of those decisions but I’ll also make sure the staff is aware of the situation.
        Thank you!

    3. Drew*

      If there’s anything you absolutely have to have to get your work done as soon as you’re in the new place, take it with you – don’t rely on the movers.

      Ask me how I know.

      1. zora*

        Yikes, that doesn’t sound fun at all!
        Luckily we are moving less than a mile, so I’m planning to be with the movers on both ends and making sure everything is there pretty quickly.

        But also, we are usually a pretty mobile group, lots of travel and working remotely, so I’ll give myself the job of making sure we have extra cables and peripherals to make sure everyone can work even if some of our boxes make a detour. Thanks for the headsup!

        1. Drew*

          tldr Office had to be evacuated and relocated unexpectedly for a plumbing issue and I was on a business trip when everything was packed up. I *still* haven’t found everything.

          1. zora*

            that is literally my nightmare. I am so obsessed with organizing and tracking ‘stuff’, I would be so frustrated with that situation. Sending sympathy!!

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Make sure people have a warning so they can ensure their personal stuff is accounted for. I can imagine it would be easy for things like decorations, keyboards, desk lights, and other odds and ends to be lost or left behind because the movers don’t realise it is personal property.

      1. zora*

        I have definitely been worried about that, because I know how that would feel if my stuff disappeared! Because we have such a small team, I’m going to personally make sure everything at each desk is packed, and I know what belongs to the space, and what belongs to individuals.

        Thanks for the thought!

  81. Queen of Cans and Jars*

    The husband & I have been talking about opening a coffee shop for a while now. He’s been roasting coffee for about 10 years, and we’ve done all our homework so are confident in our business plan. We found the perfect building which is vacant but not on the market, so I tracked down the owners and cold-called them (an amazing feat for introverted ol’ me, to say the least). After going in circles for a bit, we’re going to be putting in an offer!

    I’m terrified. I’ll be running the business bc hubs is paid better, has benefits, and actually enjoys his job (unlike me), and it is 100% out of my realm of expertise, and definitely out of my comfort zone (my introverted nature). However, I feel like I’ve been spinning my wheels for a while. We’re both early 40s with no kids, and kinda feeling like, “now what?” so I guess this is the answer to that question.

    No question really, just wanted to share, but if you’re an entrepreneur, I’d love to hear your success stories! We’ll save the horror stories for later. :)

    1. Jadelyn*

      If you’re in the U.S., I would check with the SBA, both for the guides on their site, and also because they may have offices near you with programs to help first-time business owners. They’ve got special programs for female entrepreneurs as well, if that applies to you.

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        We’re actually connected with a business consultant paid by our state but affiliated with the SBA. She’s been a godsend!

    2. jm*

      There’s an amazing coffee business in my area – Yellowhammer Coffee (@yelhamcoffee on FB and Insta). They started with one mobile coffee trailer, then expanded to two coffee trailers, and will open their first storefront soon. They have about 15 different drinks on their menu (so a pretty simple menu), create seasonal specials, and do an amazing job with marketing. They are geniuses at using social media, and are just super good people. It’s the kind of coffee company where you pay $5 for a drink, but the customer service is so good that you would be willing to pay $10. I actually feel better about life after I visit them. I bet if you reach out, they would be glad to talk with you about the coffee business!

    3. Xarcady*

      Just wanted to say, as an introvert who has had a lot of customer service jobs, I find it, not easy, but not too difficult working with customers. I think it’s because there’s a sort of script involved–the customer comes in, makes a request, you fill the request and take their money. It isn’t interaction the way it would be if you were meeting these people at a party, for instance, or even a business meeting. You each play your role and then separate.

      I find it easier to fake a cheerful smile and greeting for someone I’ve never met before, will be in contact with for a scant few minutes, and will never see again, than for my good friends and family. You don’t need a fount of never-ending small talk. “Hot enough for ya?” “Is it still raining?” “How deep is the snow now?” and “What can I get for you today?” will cover 85% of your interactions with customers.

      Now, you’ll get repeat customers that you will get to know, and you’ll have more interaction with them, but it will get easier because you’ll know more about them, or at least about what coffee they like. And there will be the, shall we call them, high maintenance customers who will drain you in 10 minutes of interaction.

      I have a second job working retail. For the most part, the interactions with customers go pretty smoothly and don’t sap all my energy.

    4. soupmonger*

      Do you actually want to do this? Are you going to be in the coffee shop every day, making and serving coffee? Or are you going to be backstage, and employ people to do the front of house?

      Because if you’re going to be in there, serving, and you are in any way ambivalent about that, my advice would be to think again. Cafe work is hard, repetitive, and you will have to learn a *lot* about coffee. I’m not trying to put you off, but I run my own cafe (and trading van, and wholesale business,and production kitchen) so I do know what I’m talking about.

      1. soupmonger*

        Adding to my comment, because it really does seem negative and it’s not intended in that spirit. What has amazed me about running my own business is just how utterly relentless it is. It’s hard, and if the business is successful, it never stops. The focus changes, but you are always ‘on’. I was prepared to work hard, but after five years, I wore out.

        If this isn’t your idea or your passion, but you’re going to be the main person front and centre, that’s going to lead to tension. Be wary of this, and be ready for it.

    5. AshK434*

      Take this with a grain of salt as I’m basing this on my experience watching reality shows such as Bar Rescue, Hotel Impossible and Kitchen Nightmares but this sounds like it may be a recipe for disaster. I would shadow or get a part-time job in an established cafe to get some experience in how to actually run a business. Or at least hire an experienced store manager if that’s in the budget.

  82. ACDC*

    Just wanted to share this gem because I saw the link to “weirdest coworkers.” A coworker at my old job, after 2 months of employment, demanded to be put on salary (she was hourly) with at least 50% raise, and she wanted to be able to work from home at least half the week (not a work from home position in any way), oh and she wanted 3 days of PTO per month because she had two uteruses and her periods were “doubly painful” (direct quote). She also refused to flush the toilet after going to the bathroom because it was a waste of water and resources.

    Let’s just say she wasn’t employed for very long after that…

  83. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Rant time:
    My team is on the verge of a war.
    This office has several lazy employees, but there is one that is more annoying than the others. Not only he spends a great part of the day on Facebook, but also watches Netflix, listens to music without headphones and vapes indoors! His musical range is varied, and includes Pink Floyd, Eminem, Donna Summer, Pitbull, blasting loudly all day. The vapor is annoying, smells of cheap counterfeit perfume and fills all the office floor. His manager enables it, his team members encourage him and we just CAN’T STAND IT ANYMORE. We complained to the office manager several times and she told him to wear headphones and lower the volume, but he just does as he pleases. I requested to be transferred to a different project many months ago, but I’m so tired of this that one of this days I’m going to steal his speakers and throw them to the trash can.

    1. Jadelyn*

      What.

      Okay, first of all, he’s a jackass. An inconsiderate jackass. Unfortunately I don’t have any strategies that don’t start and/or end with “slash his f***ing tires and leave a note on his car about his office habits”, so I can’t help there.

      But also, what the hell is with his manager??? Can your manager talk to his manager about this?

      Although, tbh, it kind of sounds like the whole team is all “bro-culture”, so there may be no winning this. In which case, best of luck getting that transfer!

    2. LCL*

      Does your office or company have a person who is in charge of workplace safety? That is the place to bring the vaping complaint. The other stuff, you sound stuck with. I can think of some retaliation strategies but I’m trying to stay positive today.

  84. Squeaky Shoe*

    Tips for quieting squeaky shoes while at work?

    Looked up some methods but I don’t have baby powder or dryer sheets on me and I would love to fix this so I can stop squeaking around the office. Would appreciate if recommendations only used supplies generally found in offices!

    1. Tara S.*

      Walk in them more? This tends to mostly go away once the soles have more texture and the upper parts are softer. (Unless it boots, I had a pair that squeaked for weeks where they never had before, I couldn’t figure it out until I realized that they had gotten soaked and just took FOREVER to dry out. Once they did, no more squeaking!)

  85. N.J.*

    I’m not sure how many readers on here are parents or new parents. I have a two month old and will be starting a new job Monday. (I was laid off from the previous job while pregnant). The sleep deprivation is real, challenging and miserable. I’ve been taking the brunt of the staying up at night while my husband has been working. Now that I’m starting back to work, we do have an equitable schedule worked out, but it really only guarantees sleep every other night. How do I survive the sleep deprivation? How do I do well at my job tired all the damn time? If I was at my old job I’d at least have the luxury of a track record of doing well to fall back on if I mess up. I won’t have that in this situation. How has everybody else on here survived this? With a new job? Successes? Tips? Horror stories and commiseration?

    1. KX*

      I don’t know what schedule you have worked out, but one person missing sleep all night every other night isn’t great. Can you rig it so you at least each get one six-hour sleep shift each night?

      It will be a bummer, because that will cut into people’s TV or relaxation time (someone will have to go to be early) but I think you will both feel better each day. And then you will (hopefully) experience less of that fierce, agonizing rage at the sun as it tries to set. It is a powerful rage. And it is annoying to go to bed at 7 and miss the Good TV.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yes, my new parent friends had to split the night into two shifts to make sure that each parent got at leas 5-6 hours. They said it was really hard on their relationship because they never had downtime together – but it kept them sane and meant that they kept their jobs. (Of course this only works if you’ve been successful at pumping enough and getting the little one to take a bottle, or converting to formula).

      2. N.J.*

        She eats in 3-4 hour cycles and was two months premature, which means we are lucky if she sleeps for 1-2 hours st a time. Every once in awhile two and a half. Currently we can both get 4-6 with me going to sleep at 5/6/7 and waking up at 10/11/midnight but that means by the time one of us would get to work we’d already be up 5 or more hours. If going to sleep that early one of us would literally need to go to sleep the minute we get home. She sleeps in a bassinet, but whoever is up with her is downstairs because neither of us will sleep if she is in our room with us. It should get better as she gets older, but that will be months from now due to her prematurity.

      3. Ender Wiggin*

        Actually I think I function better on a solid nights sleep every second night than a broken night’s sleep every night. I think it’s different for everyone. Don’t be afraid to try and change it up and see what works best.
        Also I highly recommend the contented little baby book for getting baby into a good sleep routine.

    2. Doug Judy*

      Coffee. Seriously. I did not drink coffee until I was in my 30’s and had my second kid. There were days I drank it nonstop. The every other night did not work for us because I would wake up every time I heard my kids cry (freaking biology) even if my husband got up to take care of them. Our solution was, I got up with the baby, but he had to do the cleaning and cooking since I was not sleeping. It worked for us better than trading off nights.

      You’ll be fine, really you will. Tired, but just getting out of the house and back to work would give me some energy. Hopefully you have some coworkers that are also parents, and if you do, they will get it. It’s going to be ok!

    3. swingbattabatta*

      We did every other night and it actually worked out pretty well – one of us was guaranteed a good 7-8 hours of sleep every night. But be flexible – maybe you find that kind of switching isn’t working, and it’s better to go to shift work (per se).

      You can do it! This period doesn’t last forever, and before you know it, the baby will be sleeping for longer stretches at a time. One thing that helped us was using a rock n play – our daughter HATED her crib until she outgrew her (significant) startle reflex that even a swaddle couldn’t contain. The first night she was in a rock n play, she slept for 6 hours straight. MAGIC.

      1. N.J.*

        We’re worried about poor head/neck control and asphyxiation, do you find the rock n play safe enough if the baby can’t lift/hold up her head?

        1. Ktelzbeth*

          Congratulations om the job!

          That style of device tends to make it harder for the baby to turn their head from side to side than a standard flat crib mattress, so if a baby spends a lot of time in one, they are more likely to get plagiocephaly (asymmetric head shape from a flat spot where they always lie). When I see a baby for torticollis and/or plagiocephaly, the first thing I do is tell the parents to try to get the baby out of the rock n play. No one has ever particularly liked the advice, because babies do seem to sleep well in them.

          1. N.J.*

            Yeah, I was afraid of that and breathing issues, hence no rock n play. She sleeps in a bassinet.

        2. Belle*

          It isn’t recommended to use them for sleep (the manufacturer even says not to) due to SIDS risk and other issues that can occur. I wouldn’t recommend risking it (I have a 4 month old myself so I can understand the desire to).

    4. Fellow Traveler*

      First of all- good for you! It will get better. I went back to work the week after I had a baby and everything that first monthbwas a complete blur, but I guess I managed.
      A couple of thoughts:
      – let go of non-essential home things if you can, so that you can grab a few extra moments of sleep. Make a list of things that you have to remember to do: pay the bills, feed the cat, brush your teeth. Figure out how to get that stuff done. Everything else can be sacrificed to sleep. The house can be dirty if it means you can sleep a little more. You can eat off paper plates of it means more sleep. I was lucky because my mom came and stayed with us that first month so all I did was work and nurse the baby and sleep.
      – figure out when during the work day you are most productive and use that time to do the big things on your work to do list. If you know you hit a mid afternoon slump, maybe use that to do the work that requires less brain power.
      – go for a walk on your lunch break and periodically get up and do some sun salutations. It will give you some energy to fake it through the rest of the day.
      – if you are really struggling, and you have an office close the door and put your head down for five or ten minutes minutes. (Or, I had a cubicle, but very understanding co-workers)

    5. Ranon*

      Coffee, lists, and if you can swing the financials, overnight postpartum doula (2 months would be young enough for the ones we used a few times) or other caregiver that isn’t you two to do a few overnights so you can both get a decent chunk.

      This phase is totally terrible, but it won’t be like this forever, I promise

      1. N.J.*

        With her being premature we could be looking at this until at least six months old, if we’re lucky. Here’s hoping it won’t be for the whole first year.

  86. Miss M*

    I don’t know if anyone remembers from last time, but I got a job offer! In the state where my partner lives! And I negotiated for way more money than I make now! WITHOUT MY PARENTS APPROVAL OR CONSULTATION! It felt really good to make a decision without their help. Of course, I am asking them for advice about how to move across the country again because I want them to feel needed and actually do need their advice for that.

    Now it just comes for giving my notice to my current job. I dread this part. It never feels like a good time, but this is considered a busier time of the year for our organization so I feel especially bad. I wish I had found this job in the summer when this wouldn’t be as painful to give notice. sigh. after I give notice, sell all my stuff, and get out to my partner’s place, I think I’ll feel ok to celebrate.

      1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

        Whoops, guess emojis don’t work on this website. But congrats on everything Miss M!

  87. Sarah*

    I have a bit of a conundrum – a long promised promotion has finally materialized, and it’s a higher title than I expected. However, the pay bump, while a generous 20% that I would otherwise be thrilled about, is about 10k below the bottom of the typical range for my new title. I know that I was seriously underpaid in my previous role compared to others with similar experience/titles, and I also know that a coworker was hired at my new salary for a job an entire level below mine. Do I say something? I very much don’t want to appear ungrateful as I know the promotion wasn’t easy to push through, but I am frustrated that my salary is not in range for what a new hire for my new position would receive. Does anyone have experience with a similar situation at an organization that bases pay off previous role, even when that puts someone well out of market range?

    1. Jadelyn*

      I think you could definitely inquire about it without seeming “ungrateful”. Phrase it as, “I’m thrilled to get this promotion, and I appreciate the work that went into making this happen. In reviewing it, though, I noticed that the pay rate seems to be calculated based on the next rank down from the title you’re promoting me to, as it’s well below market rate for this title – do you think there might have been a miscommunication on salary range and job level?” rather than “Hey why aren’t you paying me more?” though.

      That said, I’d also check on what your new role actually entails – they may be doing some title inflation, but leaving the salary at a range appropriate to what you’d actually be doing. And then there’s always the “external hires get paid more than internal promotions” phenomenon – the fact that they would hire someone new into that position for more than they’re offering you, while not particularly fair, is also not particularly uncommon either.

    2. neverjaunty*

      You shouldn’t worry about appearing “ungrateful”, because you don’t owe your employer gratitude. You earned a promotion that you’ve apparently been waiting for much longer than you should. Your employer isn’t doing you a huge favor by promoting you; they’re moving you into a higher-level position because you’re capable of doing the work and you’re well-qualified for it.

  88. Triplestep*

    This week we found out our terrible manager got promoted from Director to Exec Director. Yay!

    The next day we found out that her boss – a VP – is leaving. What do you want to bet they won’t replace him and are saving tons of money by giving her a nominal bump and promotion? She does not have the soft skills to manage anyone, but as of now just has my one teammate and me. Soon she’ll probably have our peer department under her purview – one that today she is constantly locking horns with.

    Just when I had developed a routine and the coping skills to deal with how bad things were (while I job search relentlessly) they will no doubt now get worse.

    Any tips for staying checked out? It’s getting harder by the day. Yesterday she came down on me for being helpful to people she does not like in the course of doing my job. She didn’t say it that way, but the examples she gave were all people she dislikes and fights with, so if I do my job in a way they will collaterally benefit them, she clearly feels undermined.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh just put all energy into getting out asap, is all I can say. I’ve been there. Remind yourself that every day you are working towards not being there any more. In my case, I also had to lower my bar for what I would accept in a new job, because at least that solved my immediate issue of needing to be gone.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, I’ve lowered that bar, but since I’ve only been in this job a year – and I am 55 and want this to be the last time I job hunt – I need to make sure the next job is sustainable to the finish line. (Or that it leaves me time to plan becoming an entrepreneur for my last years of work.)

        Thanks for the commiseration!

  89. Circe*

    How do you all handle intra-company awards? I’ve been in my current role for about 2-1/2 years and I’ve won one of our company awards for each of the years I’ve been here—think, “Excellence in Llama Grooming” and “Achievement in Grooming Innovation”. I’m starting to think about my next career steps and am updating my resume and wonder if I should add these? They’re all tied to specific projects listed on my resume, but if I’ve won it each year, does that make it seem like everyone gets them (which isn’t the case)?

    1. Earthwalker*

      If you list the ones that have a good story behind them, it hints for the interviewer to ask a question you’d like to be asked: “What did you do to be awarded Achievement in Grooming Innovation?” If it’s not so great a story, leave it off to reduce resume clutter.

  90. MMM*

    I have a question about references. I’m currently working as a substitute paraprofessional while I’m looking for/applying to full time jobs (that are not at all education-related or in schools) If/when I get to the reference check stage for a full time position, I’m not sure how to list my current role. As a contact person, I have the assistant principal (who interviewed me last spring but who I haven’t really had any further contact with) and then the woman in the office who handles scheduling (I interact with her much more but it’s basically a conversation of “can you come in tomorrow? Ok great!”) Because of the nature of the role, I’m in different classrooms every day, and the teachers would be the ones who really have anything to say about the quality of me as a sub, but even then it’s not common to be in the same class more than once. Should I include some kind of note about that along with the references when I provide them? Or just give the name of the woman in the office and let employers figure it out from there? If anyone has been in a similar position I’d love some insight!

    1. jm*

      I work for a public school district so I’m familiar with nature of sub work. I would say use the woman in the office as the reference, but give her a heads up — she may not be accustomed to acting as a reference, since she doesn’t supervise anyone.
      However, since she did not supervise your work, and you weren’t in one teacher’s class on a regular basis, you might consider not including this position in your list of references at all. Definitely include it on your resume as part of your work history, to show you were working during that time period, but maybe don’t include anyone from the school in your list of references because those are supposed to be people who know your work well and over a longer period of time.

    2. Luisa*

      Are there schools that you’ve subbed at repeatedly? If so, you might consider asking an administrator at that building to be a reference. This could be especially strong if you’ve been requested back at a certain school based on a previous sub job.

  91. Matilda Jefferies*

    Question for those who are familiar with government hiring. I know I need to be super specific, and draw a clear bright line between the qualifications listed in the job description and my resume/ cover letter. How do I do that with soft skills like relationship management, analytical skills, and so on? I’m wrestling with structures like “used critical thinking to X,” which sounds very stilted, but does draw that clear bright line. Is that really what they’re looking for? And if so, how do I make my examples sound more natural and less like a list of bullet points to match the job description?

    For reference, this is a supervisory position – I don’t actually have any experience as a supervisor, so I really need to highlight those soft skills in my application. Thanks!

    1. Not All*

      Are you talking about federal government? If so, just use the form on USAJobs.gov; it will give you sections for everything. And don’t forget that for federal jobs it isn’t a ‘resume’ it’s an ‘application’…you need to get EVERYTHING you want them to know about you on it…max out that character limit!

      (though USAJobs is down for maintenance through Monday…hopefully it isn’t like eRecruit that was supposed to be down for the weekend & ended up being down for weeks!)

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Municipal government, in a large Canadian city. No forms or character limits here, but I do have to spell out every single detail point by point from the job description!

        1. Canadian Jessie*

          I work for the Canadian Federal Government, and just went through a course on how to apply to an advertised posting. Basically, for every question/skill, they wanted you to answer this:
          1) Where
          2) When
          3) Context / Who was involved
          4) Role, responsibilities, mandate, objectives, scope
          5) Deadline to meet
          6) Complexity of task or challenge
          7) Actions/measures taken to achieve objectives or mitigate risks (Incl potential negative consequenses)
          8) Results

          If you can think of a situation where you needed analytical skills, what the result was, since you had those skills, and what the repercussions could have been otherwise, that might help you frame some of these soft skills.
          In Federal applications, at least, it’s better to be wordy than concise.

    2. Reba*

      Yes, I think you do. I have also gotten the advice from people in federal careers that many applicants are coached to just rank themselves really highly on everything, and there are the folks with preferential hiring status, so don’t hesitate to put your accomplishments in strongly positive terms and basically talk yourself up to get through the first rounds of screening. Good luck!

        1. Matilda Jefferies*

          lol, thanks! It’s pretty much the same hiring environment, and I feel confident that if I can get an interview I will probably get the job. The tricky part is getting everything – everything! – on paper as if the hiring manager doesn’t know me, even though she clearly does. It’s all about the bullet points.

  92. Don't Just Tell Me, Do It*

    Looking for advice on a particular phenomenon, both does it have a name and insight into why it happens. If you do it, tell me why. If you see others do it and have had success in reducing its frequency, tell me how.

    The situation goes like this: boss says to employee “Go into the blue teapot room and make sure only blue teapots are in there. If there are any green teapots, remove them. Let me know when that’s done.”
    Employee goes away for a while. Comes back and says “I looked and there were green teapots in the blue teapot room.”

    What is the purpose of this response? It is unclear whether the employee means, yes they did find green and have since corrected it, or whether they ignored (or misunderstood) the instruction entirely and have done nothing but report back the state of the room.

    I’m not concerned just about color-coding, but specifically where an instruction is “if you find !=X take some action to ensure X” but the response is merely statement of the existence of !=X.

    Are people being intentionally obtuse? Are they trying to get out of doing the thing? Do they just have poor attention to detail? Is there some magic phrasing that will make them less likely to misunderstand that they’ve been told to take action, not make an observation?

    1. Triplestep*

      Is this all happening via e-mail? One of my pet peeves is e-mails that are hastily read and only half (if that) responded to.

      When this happens to me, I am tempted to hit reply, highlight the unanswered bits, and type “See highlighted below.” But that seems way too obnoxious. So I just take the parts that are unanswered, copy, paste and resend. If anyone bothers to scroll down, they may see that its verbatim what I wrote before. If they don’t like my doing that, let them learn to respond to a whole e-mail!

      (And I should add that my role is very customer-service oriented. I am typically asking questions so that I can plan something on behalf of someone else if they would only answer my questions so I can gather requirements!)

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I think it happens all the time (the employee is just retaining: “they said something about the green teapots!”) but the question is, what response is the boss giving when this happens. Boss should just say firmly, “I asked you to remove all the green teapots you found. Please do that. If you need to write down instructions in the future that might help.”

      1. valentine*

        Times they didn’t do the thing, they’re missing or not retaining multiple-step instructions and making you their prompt. Times they do it, they don’t understand what’s important (the blue room is now blue-only) or how to report it. For the former, tell them they need to find a way to get/retain, like note-taking, but that it’s on them, not something you’re going to be constantly brainstorming about or checking up on with them. For the latter, get them in the habit of reporting “Done” or spelling out “The blue room is now blue-only”.

    3. Seriously?*

      Why not ask? If the boss simply follows up with “Did you fix it?” then there is no more ambiguity. It sounds like a communication issue on both sides.

      1. Don't Just Tell Me, Do It*

        We do follow up with “Did you fix it?” every time. And that’s tedious and frustrating, which is sort of the heart of where I’m coming from. The goal is to get rid of that extra step in the middle.

        The answers are pretty much evenly split between “yes I did”, “no I didn’t” (I asked you to. Please do it now.) and “not yet but I’m about to, just wanted to give you an update”. (next time, I don’t need an update until it’s done).

    4. KayEss*

      I’ve probably done this, though I like to think that I’m better at communicating the “and I removed them, as you requested” part.

      For me, it’s usually because sometimes the task has a component of reporting the existence of a problem. If having green teapots in the blue teapot room indicates that there’s an issue with the teapot sorting pipeline and I’ve been asked to check the blue teapot room for green teapots and remove any I find, the two outcomes “there were green teapots in the blue teapot room and I removed them” and “there were no green teapots in the blue teapot room” are different, even though they both result in a blue teapot room free of green teapots. Confirming that green teapots are winding up in the blue teapot room is information my boss might want to know.

      But if you can’t tell by the report whether the task was completed and aren’t able to trust that the employee’s interpretation of the task, it’s totally fine to follow up with, “And did you remove them?”

    5. Ignite*

      I think it would help if your management style means that you clearly mean what you say, will not take it back, and communicate final decisions clearly.
      I am working with a boss now whose management style means I often have to green teapot him. He gives me sudden stream of consciousness chit chat which is hard to keep track of, like, “hey Ignite how many teapots do we have? It is on trend to sell mauve teapot now. Could you verify what is color mauve is? Oh yeah, get rid of the old ones. The yellowish blue ones.” As a result I have to verify what he is talking about before going to back to double check that yes, we are giving up green teapot inventory. (Especially after the one time he yelled at me during a meeting “WELL YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE LISTENED TO ME WHEN I SAY GET RID OF THE GREEN TEAPOTS!”

    6. Nita*

      Ugh. I have a coworker who does this. I’ve asked him a couple of times if xyz has been followed up on, and could he please follow up on it if he hasn’t yet. He will come to my office to tell me that he sent the document to the right PM, but he doesn’t know if the PM followed up. And then when I ask him to remind the PM, he’ll keep mumbling that he doesn’t know if the PM followed up or not. It’s like he thinks that once he’s sent on the file, it’s no longer his responsibility and who cares if it actually gets to the right place or not.

      I can’t figure out either if it’s obtuseness or an attempt to get out of doing work (it’s five minutes’ work, I swear, and the PM he has to ask does NOT bite).

      1. Texan At Heart*

        I’ve had two people who worked for me do this. It’s crazy-making.

        In one case, I discovered they (new employee) did not trust my judgement and didn’t want to remove the green tea pots. Then, they read a study about how green teapots really hindered business and began listening to me and working collaboratively with the team. It was a good lesson for me in making sure my relationships were strong with people and that they felt they could communicate with me.

        In the other case, the person was suffering from mental health challenges that made even real simple tasks nearly impossible to complete. We eventually had to change their role.

        The best I can offer is to see if you can find the root of the problem. It’s infuriating as it’s haooeninf, but sometimes it can be corrected if you can find the cause.

        Good luck!

    7. MissMonsoon*

      Definitely talk to your supervisor!

      Our library has its share of lonely, creepy, disenfranchised people and staff are encouraged to document problems and even subtle bad behavior so I have a paper trail to work with. That trail has gotten more than one person’s library privileges revoked for a period of time. Even though we don’t want to deny access to anyone, social norms and decent human behavior are part of the cost of using the public library. The only punishment we can effectively wield is denial of access.

      Please know that we usually only have to ask people to leave for the day or warn them that if their behavior towards a singular employee continues, that period could be longer.

      I hope your system has a similar procedure in place.

    8. BluntBunny*

      It could be that they are awaiting further instructions. In this instance they know to remove the green teapots it but don’t know where they are supposed to put them, some people avoid tasks if it seems more difficult than they initially thought.

    9. LilySparrow*

      You see this as one complete project with a single goal: Ensuring the room is free of green teapots.

      Does the employee know that this outcome is the only goal? Some project assignments have different goals at different stages: Stage one, verify whether the room contains any non-blue teapots and if so, what color they are (perhaps for inventory tracking). Stage two, remove green teapots.

      Perhaps if you state the goal up front, rather than just the tasks, it might cut down on the number of people who believe they should report on teapot status before implementing Stage two.

      1. Don't Just Tell Me, Do It*

        In this example, the teapot analogy isn’t standing in for a project or something more complex. I’m realizing a chose a bad analogy, but I was trying not to use an identifying example. In real life it’s a literal one-off task (although not always the same one). It’s also not happening with just one person. Sometimes the task is happening in response to the person having a problem, and the task given is how to fix it, so they know the goal because it’s fixing their own problem. Like…the light won’t turn on/ is it plugged in, if not, plug it in/it is not plugged in. Not literally that, but that’s probably closer than the teapot example.

  93. Jayess*

    Public library workers: what do you do about those customers/patrons that get attached to you and can be a little/a lot creepy about it? I’m a young/new public librarian and years of customer service in retail prepared me for many things, but not the regularity with which a man that makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up can just come and talk to you every day. Every day.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      From what my friends say, this is a huuuuge problem especially in our urban library system. The libraries become a gathering place for a lot of troubled and challenged individuals, who are home all day looking for a free place to go. Ideally, there should be a strong commitment to providing social services – and security – through the library … but often there’s not, and the ethic of public access means that young people who trained in data access are actually doing mental health work. It’s systemic and your org needs to help you solve it rather than you handling it on your own, which I recognize doesn’t help you day to day. Hopefully others have better insights.

      1. Jayess*

        It doesn’t help me day to day, but it’s incredibly validating. I’ve spoken to my supervisors, as I have a couple of people that, due to systemic problems providing mental health care in the community, don’t realize that I’m being friendly as part of my job, not as a bona fide friend that will go to doctor or lawyer appointments with them. There is definitely a lot of suggestions to do the below things (“hey, I need your help in the back,” “phone call for you,” etc) but I struggle because people who are systemically disenfranchised do need help, and do need a friendly face. One of my co-workers tells me that I’m being “too friendly,” which I was willing to take as criticism, but as I watched others and compared my own behavior, the main difference that I noticed was literally just that I smile more.

        It’s nice to be reminded that it’s a system problem, not a JayEss has resting smiley face problem.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          The problems are real, but as you don’t have the training to take it on, I recommend drawing very bright lines for yourself around what you in your role as a librarian should do for these people. Front line people who work with challenging populations providing direct service have a lot a lot of training around boundaries, both internal and external, as well as what is feasible to do. You wouldn’t be helping either these people, or yourself, or the next nice librarian to step into your role if you create the expectation that you can do more than you really can.

      2. Nacho*

        Huh, is that why I often saw armed police officers in my local library? I always wondered about that.

    2. KayEss*

      This is admittedly not the best fix, but if you have any male librarians or support staff who you can work out a system with where they can rescue you (“Hey, Jayess, someone needs you in the back… can I help you, Annoying Man?”) they would probably be happy to help out. My husband is a public librarian and his duties frequently include dealing with That One Patron.

      Ideally your library has a support system/policy in place for this, though.

      1. Jayess*

        This… may partially have come about because I was filling that role. We have no men on staff currently. I’ve been deferring the chatty patrons by saying “was there something you need help with,” or “welp, back to the grindstone!” to indicate that chat time is over, buh bye now, but it is also wearing me down to know that That One Guy, or That Other Guy, or Guy Who Watches Me, are all just… gonna be there no matter the strategy.

        1. KayEss*

          My husband being, y’know, a man, and his library being a remote suburban location rather than a high-population urban one means his problem patrons trend more toward “That One Old Guy Who Calls Every Day To Discuss What’s On The Fox News Ticker With Someone Who Can’t Escape” and less toward “is this person thinking about how nice my hair smells and planning to follow me out to my car one day,” so unfortunately I don’t have any more targeted advice. If they’re literally just sitting/standing there staring, maybe they can be officially discouraged from loitering since they’re not actually using library services?

          I hope someone can help and that it’s not just a situation of “public library patrons gonna public library patron.” :(

    3. kerlin*

      As others have suggested, you need a system to run interference. I’m absolutely certain that others at your library have patrons who also haunt them. Always have something else to go do – even if you’re in the middle of shelving – and turn the patron over to the other person.

      I know it’s also probably in your inclination and training to continually be polite and kind but it’s okay to ignore, be purely professional and even curt, or refuse to engage with the conversation. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Eventually they will in fact realize that you’re not interested in playing their headgames. (And if they don’t, it’s ok to talk to a supervisor because if they are STILL being too friendly, that’s something that should get flagged.)

    4. HannahS*

      Oooh that sucks. I hope your supervisors would be ok with you cutting off interactions with patrons. As in, if John-the-creep comes up to you while you’re in the stacks and starts talking, it’s fine to interrupt, without smiling, “John, is there a book you’re looking for?” and he keeps talking, you can put your hand out and interrupt again with, “John, I can tell you where a book is, but if you have other questions you need to go to the front desk.” Then continue to reply with just that, or tell him to follow you and walk him to the front desk and say, “John has questions for you guys” and then leave and go back to work. And if you’re the one at the front desk, you can say “John, are you looking for a book? No? Ok, I have a lot of work to do. Why don’t you go grab a newspaper and sit down over there?” End the first interaction you have by sending them away. Also, if you’re feeling creeped out or unsafe, talk to your coworkers/boss about it and ask them for ideas.

      1. Jayess*

        *endless tears* I am the front desk! And I’m in the middle of the library! They see me come and go…. there’s no way out. The Way is Shut! There’s No Way Out!

        Melodrama aside, I have been touching base with supervisors and coworkers. Everyone is very supportive, and I’ve been getting better at low-key ignoring the people who hover around the desk waiting to chat, or directing them by saying things like “oh, did you need help finding something?” But as I’ve mentioned above, I’m feeling worn down about it. I’ve asked for ideas and am working on implementing them, but it’s still a grinding feeling. I know I’ve seen lots of librarians post on AAM before, so I thought I’d broaden my search for help and see if there was something I was missing.

        1. valentine*

          Some years back, there was a gross article about how great it is lonely, old men can rely on (captive-audience, female) librarians to fulfill their socialization needs. It’s never old guys making friends with each other and leaving women alone for several consecutive seconds. Do you have security or anyone to tell these guys to leave you alone? If they’ve not met some required official threshold for that, do you agree with the rules and do they reduce your risk or increase your feeling of safety? If you don’t have a quick physical exit, maybe look into getting a risk assessment done of the space. It may help to be all business. So you ignore the creeps unless they speak to you, only smile (less) during the interaction, don’t ask them personal questions, follow up less, drop your end more, when it’s chatting and not library stuff. More listening with a blank face and answering questions with questions, if they will go away when they’re done talking.

    5. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Let your coworkers (and supervisor) know. Coworkers are great for running interference – coming up when the man in question is talking to you and taking over so you can go elsewhere, calling the extension at your desk so you have an excuse to end the conversation, etc. Sometimes, the constant interruptions eventually make the problem patron stop.

      Of course, if it ever gets to be more than just that your Spidey-sense is tingling and he says anything inappropriate or gets in your space/tries to touch you, or anything like that, then your supervisor or security (if you have security staff) should intervene more directly and put an end to it.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I was once a young, female, fresh from college library staffer. Here’s the best advice I can give from that life.

      1. Speak to your manager. Chances are this guy is a “known” issue. Most libraries have one or two and your coworkers should know if he’s in the “slightly odd, but really harmless” category or the “actually creepy, dangerous” category. Proceed accordingly.

      2. Can you switch shifts or keep to an irregular schedule? We specifically did that at the library I worked at, so people didn’t always know who was going to be on the desk at any given time.

      3. Keep all interactions within line of sight of someone else. Is there a coworker who can some rescue you or break up the discussion as needed? Can you develop a hand signal? (Me and my coworker totally had one.)

      4. Practice your icy politeness. Answer questions with no additional commentary. Get okay with saying, “Does that answer your question? Good.” And then return to what you were doing.

      5. Lastly read “Gift of Fear.” I didn’t until I left public libaries for the dusty embrace of archives, but I wish I had. It would have helped me so much. Trust your instincts. They are usually right.

    7. MissMonsoon*

      Definitely talk to your supervisor!

      Our library has its share of lonely, creepy, disenfranchised people and staff are encouraged to document problems and even subtle bad behavior so I have a paper trail to work with. That trail has gotten more than one person’s library privileges revoked for a period of time. Even though we don’t want to deny access to anyone, social norms and decent human behavior are part of the cost of using the public library. The only punishment we can effectively wield is denial of access.

      Please know that we usually only have to ask people to leave for the day or warn them that if their behavior towards a singular employee continues, that period could be longer.

      I hope your system has a similar procedure in place.

  94. Desperato*

    I had what I thought was a promising second interview with a company who mentioned they will come back to me after 2 weeks. It is now week 4… AND the job opening is now back up on the website. I guess that is definitely a No then? :-(

    1. Triplestep*

      I’m sorry. That is really unforgivable.

      I am at week 7 of radio silence for a job in a Higher Ed setting, so the org chart is online. I suspected they were re-orging based on new, higher-up job posts I noted after my multiple interviews. The new org chart shows I was correct, but that the job I interviewed for is still open. Really? C’mon!

      1. Desperato*

        Agree with that Triplestep. I really think a “thanks but not this time ” email would be much kinder all round.

  95. The Other CC*

    This is a long shot since I know it’s basically obsolete software but…anyone have a great training resource for WordPerfect? The legal assistant I’m replacing is training me on it right now and I have to learn it. Only half of my usual keyboard shortcuts work and I can’t keep the DOS commands she keeps telling me to use straight in my head. Paid courses are ok – they’ve said they’ll pay for the training.

    Send help!

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      There used to be a ton of stuff of course. search through dusty corners for the old books, etc.

    2. Anon From Here*

      WordPerfect evangelist here, with a couple of tips:

      1) There’s a setting where you can have it act more like Word. I don’t have it in front of me but look under Tools, then Settings, I think.

      2) Keep your Reveal Codes open so you can see where formats start and end. Alt-F3 , or look under the View menu.

      3) This will make my response go into moderation, but there’s a tutorials page from Corel: https://www.wordperfect.com/en/pages/tutorials/

  96. TheBeetsMotel*

    After a lot of toxicity in our workplace, a coworker approached myself and another to see if we’d be amenable to going in a group to approach the owner with some of our concerns regarding respectful treatment, reasonable expectations and the like. (I won’t go into huge detail, but the owner’s disrespect, yelling, micromanagement and temper tantrums are driving everyone away, and it’s gotten to a crisis point for at least the three of us; probably more employees too).

    We’re three of his senior staff, so I feel we have the ability to affect change if we do this right. I certainly DON’T want it to look or turn in to the kind if debacle that we all remember from the letter where the interns demanded the clothing policy be changed! We’re not marching into his office with a list of demands; we’re trying to bring in a perspective on his behavior that he has a massive blind spot with.

    Any pointers to keep this calm, professional and effective?

    2. Rey*

      I just posted a link to something Alison has written about speaking up as a group. I like her scripts (bullet points toward the end): “We’re concerned about X. We’re hoping we can share our perspective with you. Here are our concerns. Given those concerns, can we change the way we’re doing this/can this be reconsidered/would you be willing to try Y instead? Thanks for hearing us out.”

    3. Earthwalker*

      Be sure you know who will say what and double check the group’s individual commitment. I’ve seen efforts in which a group of people too timid to address the manager themselves negotiate for one person to speak for them all. When the boss asks the rest of the group with hint of anger, “And do you ALL feel this way?” they back down and say, “Nope, no, not me,” leaving their spokesman in a bind. People who are really angry in the back room can be surprisingly wussy in the boss’s presence.

    4. valentine*

      This reminds me of the team who worked for a couple and had to speak to the husband about the wife’s horrific behavior. Unlike the interns or, worse, the people who complain their director works from home instead of just asking him what to do when he’s unavailable, you’ve got proper, serious behavioral issues to address. He’s probably going to say you bullied him, but a group is the way to do it. Maybe limit yourself to the top 3 issues and leave him a written version. Write yourself notes about what he’ll say/do and how you’ll react, to refer to in the moment. The more he yells, the more nearly bored you sound. If he throws things or otherwise gets dangerous, your team leaves the room as one and possibly has to conclude with a Breakfast Club letter.

  97. Librariann*

    Hello collective wisdom! I’m writing with a question for a co-worker. We work at a very small (less than 20 people) non-profit. About two months ago, out Finance/HR Director was let go for a variety of reasons, which means we now have essentially no HR, and just one person working part time as our finance “department.” Our executive director is picking up the slack, which includes doing our by-weekly payroll. The problem is that she is not a very detailed oriented person and is making quite a few mistakes. This is mostly related to things like processing vacation and sick time properly, but for my coworker it is much more serious: She is only being given half of what her paycheck should be (let’s say she should be receiving $1,000 and is now only receiving $500). The first time it happened, she went directly to the executive director, who apologized profusely, and promised it would not happen again. Except it did. Today marks not the second, but the THIRD time when her paycheck is half of what it should be, and she is extremely upset. I’ve encouraged her to talk to our board president, who is the next in the chain of command, but she is reluctant to do so. She has been with this organization for almost ten years, and has seen similar situations where an employee has gone to the board with an issue concerning the exec director, only to be fired shortly after. While we have a whistleblower policy in place, this doesn’t seem to be a malicious act, just neglectful. Still, this is a pretty serious issue. Does anyone have any advice? Thank you!
    (Note: my coworker has been promised the full payment for these three paychecks, but to date has only received one full payment, and that took nearly three weeks)

    1. Reba*

      That’s terrible! Has she continued to talk to the Exec director each time it happens? I’d consider sending them a message or talking to them every day that it is not corrected. “Boss, as you know I am still short 1500 of my pay. Do you know when I will get the money?” If making oneself a (very justified) annoyance doesn’t do it, then something smells and the board should know.

      2. Librariann*

        My coworker has spoken with the ED each time; today she was told that the matter will be resolved within fie business days. I will be passing on the suggestions from this thread too. Thank you for your ideas!

    2. Time is Money*

      I’ve been an Ex Director. This is how I’d like it to be handled.
      1. Document every conversation with the Ex Director about this. Meticulous documentation of money’s not received, received and unpaid.
      2. Notify the Ex Director of what you want to happen next and by when. I want the rest of my money by X date. If that is not done, then we’ll meet with the Treasurer and Bd President. At this point someone has to take charge and the ED isn’t.
      3. If that date passes, set up a meeting, inviting everyone.
      4. Document the meeting

      Every state has a payday requirement, and you can check with the DOL, as well as the FLSA Act. You can contact your DOL in your state for guidance, too.

      This Ex Director is not doing her job, which is taking care of her employees.

    3. Rey*

      There’s got to be something here that violates labor laws, so I would first look up the specific pay requirements in your state. If you feel like this is all an innocent/harebrained mistake (and not a malicious intent), a casual tone might be good, along the lines of, “I still haven’t received payment X and Y, which was due on Z date. I’m worried that we might be violating (our state’s labor laws)–what should we do to address?” The “we” keeps it from getting too confrontational, as if it’s ED and coworker against the labor law, not coworker using labor law to bang ED over the head. (But also, this is garbage, and I think that employers and supervisors have an ethical obligation to ensure that employees are correctly compensated on-time.)

      1. Librariann*

        Thank you! I hadn’t thought of checking labor laws. I will pass that on to my coworker.

    4. Bea*

      This violates labor laws. Even the most lawless of regions require you to pay a person on the scheduled day

      Also she’s not just screwing up her staff’s paycheck she’s screwing with the tax payments. Fastest way to be shut down is defaulting on payroll taxes.

      But all this still puts her job at risk. It takes a real jerk to mess up payroll and push off the fix until next payday. That’s unacceptable.

      1. valentine*

        Ooh, the taxes! I hope she’ll speak to someone other than the person causing it because it sounds like embezzlement targeted at the person who has the most to lose by speaking up.

  98. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

    So this is just something I have to share with others: a friend of the family just bought a ridiculously powerful Jaguar coupe and tossed me the keys to drive to work in it this morning. It’s….quite something to trade a trundling Subaru for furiously orange sports car with a supercharged V8 that makes a sound banned by obscenity laws in several southern states. Especially when, on a two-lane road, I came up on four cars waiting to pass a truck towing a backhoe. Reader, I just flexed my ankle and passed them all, at arrest-me speeds and emitting a noise like a Spitfire coming around for a strafing run. I didn’t need coffee and my mood has been fantastic all morning. Pity the damned thing cost half as much as a house, because I have the secret to worker productivity parked in my usual spot today. Good gravy.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      That sounds like a lot of fun! Also, I love that the car is orange. Furiously orange, even. Enjoy!

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        It’s the only adjective I can think of. Most orange cars are more of a copper, or a tangerine, right? This has metallic yellow flakes in it. It’s like an open bonfire with wheels. I adore it. The paint alone probably cost as much as my first car.

        1. Canadian Natasha*

          Love your description of the colour. “It’s like an open bonfire with wheels.”
          I can totally visualise that and it sounds amazing.

    2. KR*

      I got a charger as a work rental once for a day trip to another location. Made my whole day awesome. Also I took the long way back to my office lol. It was very very fast.

      On a different note I rented an impala recently and it was FAST. As someone who likes to go fast I completely understand that rush and good mood. I love my car and it gets very good gas mileage which is important to me, but the engine is a 4cyl so it takes some coaxing and smart shifting to get it going fast.

    4. nani1978*

      I wish you could zoom on by and take me for a spin at lunch. I usually chant the ole “Calgon, take me away” but a nifty lil coupe ride would be a great step up. Don’t stress that ankle too much! ;)

    5. I'm the Cool Aunt*

      I was prepared to rent a basic car for an overnight trip, when the car rental guy and I learned we had gone to the same high school (no where the same time frame) but we had a bonding moment. He upgraded me to a (then new) Mustang. I picked up my 9 yr old niece who hugged me and said, “YOU’RE THE COOLEST AUNT!”

      We took some corners, we ran some drag (in the outer reaches of the Phoenix desert). We may have left a few tire marks and donuts on a deserted road to now where…

      1. Liet-Kinda (nee Snark)*

        I think we’re all morally obligated to beat on an unexpectedly rented Mustang. Like, yah, mule!

    6. AnonEmu*

      Niiiiiiice! I got a Mustang as a rental car once while my car was in the shop after someone backed a moving van into it – I had fuuuuun driving to work for 2 weeks. Not something to drive everyday but definitely worth a spin! Enjoy the drive home!

      2. I'm the Cool Aunt*

        When we lived in NC, my husbands truck broke and he took it to the dealership. The dealership gave him a loaner Tahoe. We had a trip planned, with the truck, so we took the Tahoe (which we named Sven) on our trip, from Fayetteville NC to Reading PA, down to D.C. and then Asheville NC. When we brought the truck back, the dealership FREAKED at the mileage. No worries for us just fix our truck.

      1. I'm the Cool Aunt*

        HILARIOUS! “Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration, don’t fail me now.” I’m going to say that every time I get on a Dallas freeway…

    9. Nona*

      Wow. Alison, I hope this one just slipped by you, and that you aren’t just turning a blind eye to an off-topic comment and replies that are encouraging reckless, dangerous behavior?

      1. anna banana*

        Alison has said repeatedly that she doesn’t see every comment, especially on the open threads.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I think Snark would tell you that I’ve removed his comments for being off-topic and asked him to move on/rein it in quite a bit actually. Maybe more than most.

            Edited to remove a line with me losing my temper. My apologies — it’s been a hard week.

          2. Liet-Kinda*

            Have you tried just not indulging in this kind of petty scorekeeping, reporting comments as appropriate, and not contributing to the deepening atmosphere of snotty rule- and tone-policing that’s taken over the comments of late?

            I don’t get passes, as Alison notes. She also doesn’t chase everyone around on Friday open thread, making sure every single post meets not just her but your definition of work-related.

      2. Kat in VA*

        Wow, cover your eyes – I have a ridiculously fast, ridiculously powerful sports car and I drive like this

        EVERY

        SINGLE

        DAY

        Don’t go having a heart attack, now.

        1. Les G*

          Could this be any more obnoxious? You shouldn’t drive like this every day or ever. But congratulations on being cool.

          My wife’s ex also drove a “ridiculously fast, ridiculously powerful” sports car and reader, that’s how I learned that sometimes cliches are true.

          1. Kat in VA*

            It’s not about being cool. It’s about enjoying driving my car after 15 years of piloting a hoopty beater truck.

            But sure, I’ll drive like a little old lady from now on because some rando on the internet got all bent up clutching their pearls.

            1. Not my real name*

              Driving in such a way that endangers everyone else on the road is so edgy, good on you! Only little old grammas care about driving in such a way that is safe and responsible, ammirite???

      3. Liet-Kinda*

        What’s more of a problem: someone relating a story that’s connected to work a little tangentially by way of their commute, or someone being this breathtakingly petty, snotty, and pearl-clutchy? What’s going to maintain good order and good feelings in a Friday comment thread more? What ultimately reflects better on the tone and tenor of this little corner of the internet?

        Your point isn’t off base. Your tone is petulant and aggressive. Maybe work on that. I’d like for Alison to not have to erase any of my posts.

  99. Persephone Mulberry*

    I’m looking for a word.

    I’m good at looking at a problem or process and seeing solutions or ways to improve. I am not good at coming up with brand new ideas from whole cloth. I thought I wanted to go into marketing but realized I am terrible at content creation.

    Another way to look at it: when I have an idea for a new art piece, I rarely see the finished product in my mind; I usually have a vague topic/subject and then I spend a bunch of time on Google images looking for inspiration/a jumping off point.

    Is there a business-y word for someone who IS the peson who comes up with new ideas from scratch, i.e. the type of person I am not?

    3. Overeducated*

      “Thought leader”?

      GAAAAH I’m sorry! I’ve heard people call themselves that before and every time I judge them for how self-important they sound. But that’s probably what they think they’re doing….

      1. Tash*

        That’s not what thought leadership is!

        It’s just a pretentious term for doing stuff like op eds and being an industry expert.

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        Kind of – those are the jobs I would be bad at, but I’m trying to come up with a more general noun/adjective that describes the character trait that makes some people good at those jobs. “Creative” and “innovative” are too broad, because I feel like am both of those things, just not in one particular way.

      1. Reba*

        When you put the terms side by side, so you’re forced to really think about them, there is a subtle but important difference that emerges.

        Unfortunately I think that in common usage they are pretty interchangeable, so just using “innovative” without the special stress or contrast you’re putting on it here, I don’t think it will carry your meaning.

        You’re thinking more like critical thinking, ability to analyze processes or products, and envision changes, yeah?

        Maybe reading about kaizen or continuous improvement would give you some ideas.

      3. BluntBunny*

        I think you could describe yourself as observant or a problem solver since you are able to identify problems and possible solutions. Also that you are curious and able to critically analyse a system. I am in STEM I think you could definitely use creative and innovative to describe yourself it doesn’t mean that you always have an answer I see it as your open to new ways of thinking and doing things. The personal qualities that are listed on the job descriptions are a good place to look they usually say we are looking for a person who…

  100. Rectilinear Propagation*

    Kind of a meta question but is there a site policy on discussing questions from other sites? Every once in a while I’ll see a question someplace else and want to know what the crowd here thinks of it. It either didn’t generate a lot of discussion on the original site or the audience there has certain biases that don’t exist here so there’d be different responses. (I would, of course, avoid posting links to anything that would cause a lot of drama.) However:

    1. Is it just weird to grab questions from some other site?

    2. Since it’s not my workplace issue or even one from someone I know, would it go in this thread or the general free for all?

    Similar question for stuff that’s in the news. For example, I wanted to see what people thought about Telltale Games shutting down and how they laid off their employees but wasn’t sure if that counts as workplace discussion or general discussion.

    1. Seriously?*

      The Friday thread and the weekend thread tend to be pretty lax about what qualifies. It isn’t like the responses to questions where Allison tries to rein in derailing conversation. People post work questions not directly related to them on this thread all the time.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I actually had someone email me once to complain they thought “Seriously?” was being snarky, not realizing it was their user name! I explained. But I do think it can come across as hostile to people who don’t realize that (which is probably a lot of people) and I wouldn’t mind them picking a name that won’t inadvertently make people think they’re being snarked at!

            3. 12345*

              Usernames are in bold above the timestamp. Usernames work similarly across many platforms (either above or to the side). Yes, some people may not realize, but I’d hate to have to change my name because a few folks didn’t get it right away. You can usually figure it out pretty fast even if you’re new to this kind of thing. Over where I used to moderate, if we asked a user to change their name every time someone, or a few, didn’t like it or didn’t understand it, we’d be moderating for user names all the live long day* (and probably lose a lot of users). We’ve got better things to do with our time. As long as it’s not truly offensive (think the “c” word) we don’t worry about it. But again, your site your rules. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

              2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Sorry, that wasn’t intended as a formal request to the person to change it. I was responding to a comment about it with some context they might not have had. What they do from there is up to them.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s fine to discuss questions from other sites here. If they’re work-related, please keep them on the work open thread. If they’re not work-related, they’re fine on the weekend thread! In your Telltale games question, if the discussion is about how they handled layoffs, it would go on the work thread (since it’s about a work practice). If it’s about what it might mean for games they make that you play, that’s weekend thread.

  101. Random Commenter*

    Question about dealing with my supervisor. We have a very friendly relationship, where we joke and tease each other a lot. I understand this is not always ideal, but this is pretty much the environment in our small company and I have followed his lead to this point. The problem is now I think it’s gone too far and I don’t know how to handle it. Any help?

    A small thing we’ll do is in brief moments of waiting for the system to load, or for someone to respond to an email, etc, he’ll show me cute animal videos from his cell phone because we both love animals and that will make us laugh. Sometimes he’ll show me some other funny video. That’s fine.

    Yesterday he showed me a poorly edited video mocking people in a protest for a cause that has been very relevant where we live (cause X). It was a few seconds of out of context footage edited into an episode of a cartoon, to make these people look irrational and ridiculous.

    He knows well that I support X, and he has always been fine with that, kind of passively agreeing but he’s not a very political person. But now he was showing me this video, laughing and expecting me to say what my coworker said: “I agree with X but what these protesters are doing is ridiculous”. But i wasn’t going to do thst, so I didn’t say anything but smile politely. Then he started teasing me, so he asked me directly (teasingly) whether I would ever act like the people in the video. I asked him not to ask me to respond and looked back at my computer. He insisted. I said “I don’t know. I don’t know what it is they were doing. There is no context there. Anything one ever does can be shown as ridiculous when framed that way. I am not blindly defending them because I agree with X, it might we’ll be ridiculous, I just don’t know”.

    He called me a killjoy, I said he shouldn’t have asked then, and laughed (to try to de-escalate). He said he was just teasing, I said “no, you weren’t”, grinned, and went back to work with headphones on.

    But I am still angry. Not that he would have shown me the video, that was an error of judgement, but that he kept pushing and put me in a position to either mock my own principles or be the office killjoy, and then mocked me and pushed it some more. I was distant the rest of the day.

    Today I got to the office and he showed me like 5 animal videos in a row which… I think he’s trying to overcompensate maybe? Get back on good terms? But I still think this warrants more serious discussion about boundaries that I don’t know how to address.

    1. Seriously?*

      I’m not sure if you need to have another discussion about it. It sounds like you made your point very well and established the boundary you want. If he is trying to overcompensate and get back to normal, it sounds like he got the message. Maybe prepare what you want to say in case he does push again, but don’t bring it up unless he does.

      1. KayEss*

        Agreed, I think you handled it in the moment very well… when I started reading, I thought it was going to be a typical case of “the video he showed me yesterday was offensive but I still laughed and didn’t say anything because I was caught off-guard, how do I go back and make it clear that actually it was not okay?”

        Give him the one-time grace of assuming that his smoothing-over behavior is a signal that he understands he screwed up, and save the big conversation for if it becomes an issue in the future.

    2. Reba*

      Embrace the killjoy! That’s what I do. “Yep, I am no fun! About that report…” said with a genuine smile, if possible.

      1. Random Commenter*

        I do, usually!

        What bugs me about being the killjoy in this particular situation is that it can be reframed as me being the problematic one. I’ve had similar situations before (never with bosses), where if it escalates, it becomes “everything was fine and we were having a laugh until Random Commenter made a problem by making a thing out of it”. The fear of this is what rubs me the wrong way here, because he’s my superior! Luckily he doesn’t seem to have taken it so far in that direction.

    3. Rey*

      I definitely understand why you are annoyed with him. Your statement that you didn’t want to respond should have been enough, and his insistence and then mocking of you is pretty strange. If you want to say something, you could, along the lines of, “Your insistence that I talk about X made me uncomfortable, since it was a casual conversation and not work-related.” My instinct is to address it if it happens, aka, “Why are you being so weird about this? Let’s talk about (subject change).” or “Excuse me?” (and making them repeat it multiple times until they start to feel awkward and uncomfortable). And I don’t know that I would recommend this for everyone interacting with their supervisors, but depending on your relationship, it might be okay.

    4. neverjaunty*

      You’re confused because you’ve always had a joking relationship, and he used that as cover to needle you about an issue where you disagreed with him. He’s overcompensating because he now realizes that you’re still angry about it – and you should be, because your boss was a jerk who misused your friendly relationship with him.

  102. dumblewald*

    I want to apply for an internal transfer to another team in my dept (would be under a different manager.) What is the best way to go about doing this? Should I just email the recruitment/learning and development team, or set up a meeting, or both? I have been wanting to transfer for a while and just wanted to wait until I got a year into the company. (Actually, I’m also applying for other jobs, but right now, getting another job seems like more of a longshot.)

    1. Reba*

      From reading this site (that’s my only information on this) it seems that different companies have different procedures. Some managers want to coordinate. Can you talk to your boss about this? Or is there a coworker with a longer tenure who could advise you on an approach?

  103. Overeducated*

    For anyone keeping count:
    I started at my job 6.5 months ago, in a department of 9.
    As of this week, we’re up to six departures. This is quite worse than being decimated!

    The good thing is that it’s now so bad even the interim manager is worried enough to talk about trying to fill positions ASAP, when the line up until last week was “no hiring until we’ve created a long term strategic plan and hired a permanent manager.” I think the bleeding isn’t over but at least it won’t all be on the backs of the few who remain, forever.

  104. frida*

    I got a job offer this week! woo! Very excited because it’s a job related to what I’m currently studying.

    Tips on balancing grad school and work?

    1. Four lights*

      Try to plan things out so you don’t work too hard. Try not to procrastinate so you aren’t pulling all nighters before work.

    2. Random Commenter*

      Yes! Keep on top of your class work a little at the time, so that you don’t have to binge at the end. This is usual advice for students in general, but when you’re working you REALLY need to do it, as you phisically won’t be able to binge at the last moment like if you were a full-time student.

  105. yasmara*

    The company my husband works for is pushing a new compensation program – it’s unclear if it will be optional or mandatory (it was previously optional, but they had a lower adoption rate than they thought they would).

    We are located in the US. The company is proposing a smaller base salary and a larger potential profit-sharing type bonus. Off the top of my head, negatives would include smaller monthly paycheck, smaller disability or other insurance benefit (based on salary not total compensation), smaller unemployment if he ever needs it, smaller answer to “what was your salary at your last job” if he leaves the company. The potential positive would be a bigger (potentially substantially bigger) bonus payment, paid out once yearly, potentially raising his total compensation. But the bonus is variable, based on performance (his and the company’s!) so his pay rate would also be variable.

    I’m having trouble getting past “smaller monthly paycheck,” honestly…

    This is NOT a sales role or commission-based role. Anyone been in this position before? It seems like all the risk is on the employee’s side…

    1. Natalie*

      It seems like that because it is!

      Some things I would probably think about –
      – can you live comfortably on the lower paycheck if there was zero bonus?
      – has the company been stingy or generous, historically? If they’ve always been stingy, assume that won’t change
      – how is “profit” being determined? Without getting too into the weeds of financial statements, it’s totally possible for a company to turn an operating profit (that is, they’re making money on whatever their primary business is) but have a net loss due to expansion, extraordinary losses, etc
      – can he review prior years financial statements? What has their pattern been? Again, if they’ve been sustaining losses, or only small profits, assume that will continue

    2. bb-great*

      I agree with you that all the risk is on the employee’s side. And I would be a little alarmed if I were your husband, because it sounds an awful lot like the company is concerned about cash flow.

    3. Kes*

      It sounds like they’re well aware it will likely work well for them in a number of ways, thought they could spin it enough to convince employees it would be good for them, and now that the employees are declining to participate because they’re seeing through it and it entails a lot of risk for them, the company is trying to push it to save themselves some money.

      I’m with you – I wouldn’t want to give up some of my secure salary for a variable, yearly bonus. (Bonuses are fine, I get one, but it’s on top of my salary – I wouldn’t want to give up salary for it)

      I also agree with Natalie that’s it’s worth looking at past years and patterns in how the company is doing (plus how you well think it is likely to do), and maybe try calculating how this would have worked out for you in past years and how you think it could work out in a sample case if they do push this on you.

    4. nonegiven*

      Is the paycheck going to be as much as 20% lower?

      That may be constructive dismissal.

      They WANT people to update their resumes?

    5. leukothea*

      I would not take that deal. If I wanted that sort of risk and uncertainty, I’d become a contractor and have a lot more freedom and potential upside. This sounds like the worst of both worlds.

  106. A. Ham*

    My new boss starts next week. we’re all excited to have her as part of our team!
    On the day that she starts I have a regular monthly off-site meeting first thing in the morning, so will not be in the building until closer to mid-day. I feel bad, especially as part of her department, but also just as part of the organization in general (it’s a small org), that I won’t be there to welcome her on her first day.
    She doesn’t even have her e-mail set up yet- do you think it would be appropriate to leave a little friendly note on her desk welcoming her and (almost more importantly) letting her know where I am?

    1. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Woah, really no email yet? Everywhere I’ve been I have had emails for days by the time I started! XD
      I would do it if I was in your shoes, but also acknowledge that IT might come in and move it if they don’t have her computer set up yet.

  107. kerlin*

    Our small nonprofit follows the state employee pay scale because we work on state contracts and it’s required. So we don’t ever get merit raises – we get cost of living, and step increase, both of which add up together to…just about cost of living. It’s nice to have a “guaranteed” raise but the pay scale is pretty darn low otherwise and all of our staff is totally, completely maxed out. I’ve worked 23 out of the last 24 days and my brain is fried.

    Recently, a few other staff members have begun low-key advocating for bonuses that are discretionary within our budget and unrelated to the pay scale. I’d love a project-based or annual bonus and it seems like a good way to financially reward staff within our strict compensation structure. Any advice on advocating for that? I report directly to the ED (though I am not senior staff, it’s just that we’re that tiny) and generally have a good relationship with him.

  108. Reba*

    That sounds stressful. You already said just what I would have said or wanted to say. I hope it goes well, and I hope you can have a chat with your boss about how it went (out of your hands) if need be.

  109. Middleman*

    I have a report whose behaviour is starting to cross the line into insubordinate, including making quite personal attacks when challenging decisions. My authority is limited in the sense that I can ‘manage’ her but not ‘discipline’ her. My boss knows this going on but is yet to take formal action and seems reluctant to do so. Any advice?

    1. Four lights*

      You could start to document. They you can say to your manager, look, she’s making these comments three times a day. Since these are personal attacks, you could also emphasize how they make you feel, and how they would make you feel in the long run. I mean, if this goes on for months, which if it will if it’s not stopped, you probably won’t even want to come to work. I would hope your manager wouldn’t want that.

    2. Kathenus*

      Since you manage her, I’d also clearly communicate to her what she is doing wrong and what your expectations are for professional communication. And in addition to documenting her behavior, you document these discussions/coaching sessions and send a copy to your boss. You aren’t disciplining her by imposing any specific outcomes, but you are communicating to her what behavior is and isn’t appropriate and documenting the behavior and these meetings for future use as needed.

  110. Labradoodle Daddy*

    I’m a youngerish person and have a question: why do some people in offices freak out when they’re blind copied on an email?

    1. KayEss*

      It puts them in a weird position of you having essentially told them “hey, I want you to know that I told X this… BUT I don’t want X to know that I told you.” For pretty much any business email that isn’t a newsletter, there should be total transparency regarding all parties that are receiving it. Using BCC indicates that there are some shady dynamics going on with the situation, and no one needs/wants that drama.

    2. OfficeDrone*

      In general, I have found in offices that some people have Opinions about emails. It is odd.

      But I think being blind copied kind of leaves you in a gray area. Am I supposed to do something with this information? If I have more questions, do I reply back? Why am I not just CC’d? Is this a secret? That type of thing.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I emailed the eas and admins at my company, asking them to let me know if they wanted us to forward calls for the important guys they support to them (the admins) rather than Mr. Big Wig. I blind copied them all to avoid a massive reply all chain which also pisses people off in the office. No good deed. Meh.

        1. KayEss*

          I would put this down to “weird workplace norms that no one thinks about but everyone has to learn somehow,” and let it go. It’s not a huge misstep, and you did it for reasons that most people would think were sound. If the freakouts are extra-severe or don’t die down fairly soon, that says more about them than it does about you.

        2. Crylo Ren*

          I don’t think it was a misstep, but I do think BCC is used so rarely in office contexts today that it generally does require a bit of extra explanation…at least, that’s how it’s been at the last few places I’ve worked.

          I think if you have to do something like this in the future, stick with just CC and simply add a note in your email that if anyone has any feedback or thoughts on the subject, reply directly to you and do not Reply All. That way if someone does go ahead and replies all (and pisses off others in the office), you have plausible deniability that it was down to recipient error and not the sender.

        3. valentine*

          I only found out here in the last week or so that bcc does this, so sharing that may soothe them.

    4. dumblewald*

      You should only use BCC for very specific contexts, and the person being BCC’s should know exactly why they are being BCC’d. Some examples include:

      – Sometimes i get bcc’d on emails sent externally to clients. This is so I am in the loop, but I don’t need to be privy to every conversation with the client (since client management is not a fundamental part of my job.) It also kind of protects me from being contacted by third parties.

      – My manager asks me to bcc her on correspondences for one reason or another.

      – Mass newsletters or emails were you want to protect the identity of everyone receiving the email.

      The only exception to the rule above does involve some drama at work – sometimes you may need to bcc HR (without warning) if you feel like you’re being threatened or harassed in any way. Hopefully, these situations are rare.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I did it to avoid a massive reply all, why am I on this thread???? kind of chain. I thought I was as doing the right thing. Bummed.

          1. dumblewald*

            I will say, if you are sending an internal email, it’s normal to just address everyone normally (even in mass emails), but it doesnt make sense for someone to freak out about being bcc’d.

          2. Labradoodle Daddy*

            One of the EAs who’s known to be aggressive, stupid, and aggressively stupid. The kicker? Shes the one who complained that her guy had a call transferred directly to him.

            My company threw me under the bus even after I explained my reasoning/thought process.

            1. dumblewald*

              Omg yeah – this is not at all an issue of what you did. Your colleagues are unreasonable.

              1. Labradoodle Daddy*

                The staffing firm that employs me is in the process of trying to get rehired, which I’m guessing is influencing the degree of freakout I got from my managers.

        2. Gumby*

          This seems totally reasonable. Maybe indicate who is getting the email in the text of it somewhere? Like the greeting “Dear admin list,” or in a note after your signature “Email went to the [list] as a bcc to avoid massive reply chains.” Then you are being transparent about who has been included while still protecting your organization’s email servers and your own sanity.

          1. CM*

            I would suggest this too, in general. When I use BCC for a list, I usually put in a note like “This message is being sent to all managers in X group.” But for Labradoodle Daddy, I’d just avoid using BCC at this job in the future even though it sounds like you didn’t really do anything wrong.

        3. sb51*

          BCC to avoid reply-all is generally fine, but put ONLY yourself on the To list, to make it clear that EVERYONE is BCCed.

          1. TheTallestOneEver*

            I do a combo of this plus what CM said to avoid the reply to all. Email it to myself, BCC everyone, and open the message with “This message is being sent to all team members with blue teapots.”

    5. LCL*

      At big gov ™ IT has disabled the blind CC function. When it was enabled, it was mostly used by people to spread discontent. Example-employee and manager have a disagreement, employee emails manager and blind CCs the workgroup so they will get mad also. There is a place for confidentiality at the job, but using blind CC is a bad way to go about it.

    6. Judy (since 2010)*

      At a former employer, they would BCC on group emails a lot. But sometimes the emails were sent to the manager list, with the expectation they would forward to their employees. And sometimes the emails were sent to the all employee list. There were many times when I didn’t receive information about something. And many times I received a copy, plus a copy from my manager and one from my project manager.

  111. Rosa*

    Gumption alert!

    I’m in higher ed, on a campus with a very structured search process. I’m currently chairing a search, and earlier this week I attended a professional conference. As I was waiting in line in the ladies’ restroom, someone approached me.
    “Hey! I’m Monica Gellar and I applied for your job. I’ve been looking for you to let you know I’m available to meet during this conference so I can tell you why I’m a strong candidate. Let me give you my card.”
    Never have I been so happy to say, “I’m sorry, but I can’t speak to applicants outside the official process.”

    1. dumblewald*

      Yikes. As someone who graduated three years ago, feel free to spit on all the career services offices in educational institutions that advise us to do EXACTLY this.

      1. dumblewald*

        OK I exaggerate – they don’t literally tell us to ambush hiring managers in bathroom lines, but they tell us to contact them and ask them out to coffee and such.

    2. KayEss*

      Oof, that’s a clumsy waste of a great networking opportunity on her part. You have to be suave about that sort of thing, like opening up a normal conversation in a mixed space and then proceeding to “Oh, you’re Rosa from Llamas, inc.! I actually applied for the lead groomer opening recently and I’d love to ask you a few questions about the position and company, if that’s all right.” Even if the answer is “sorry, can’t discuss that with applicants,” you’ve made a normal connection and a hopefully good impression. That’s lost if you ambush people when they have to pee!

  112. Undercover regular*

    Alison, can you please delete this comment? I realized a few minutes after hitting “submit” that when you are worried about managing your coworkers’ feelings and your relationships with them, venting in such detail that they would know it was you if they read it is probably not a great idea. Sorry for the lack of impulse control.

  113. Conflicted*

    I have a co-worker that is, quite honestly, one of the worst people I’ve ever encountered. I could write paragraphs about how terrible she is as a person and as a co-worker. I’ve gone to the bosses about her, I’ve filed HR complaints about her, and I’ve advised others on how to complain about her.

    But here’s my dilemma: she has, lately, developed a health problem that is impacting her at work. It is the sort of thing that management could accommodate with a moderate one-time burst of effort (she needs a relatively basic adaptive device to be purchased and installed). But management isn’t working with her. They seem to be trying to push her out, and want her to go on disability or retire (she’s in her mid-50s).

    I would not be sorry to see her gone, but this is awful! I’m aware that this may not be legal, much less ethical, and I’m also scared for the precedent it appears to set. I have no authority here – I’m just another peon – but what can I do?

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      You do not want to put yourself in a position when you are pulled into a lawsuit between you coworker and your employer. Keep your distance.

    3. buu*

      The management at your company has serious flaws, they wouldn’t deal with her properly when you complained. Then when she has legit health issues, they also won’t act. It seems to me they just don’t like taking any action that leads to inconvenience for themselves.
      It’s sad she has a health problem and you’re a good person for showing empathy for someone you dislike, but I do agree there’s little you can do here.

    4. Bea*

      Take note that management are jackholes.

      This is typical for bad management. They don’t want to bother with complaints and such. Too tedious. It’s easier for them to stonewall her and force her out this way.

      Is it an expensive adjustment? I’m willing to bet they’re on that “we won’t do anything to retain this employee” level and heck no will they invest a sum of money to assist her in doing her job.

      They may or may be taken to court for this behavior. Assume the worst, stay out of it and see if you’re called to testify later.

  114. ObvAnon*

    I have been working on an out-of-state temporary assignment for 6 months. I agreed to 12 months, but that included the time to hire and train my replacement. The first and second candidate accepted other offers, and I just found out the 3rd one won’t work out for some surprising reasons (which will become a shirtshow). It’s a fairly high level role. Each candidate takes a couple months from start to finish.

    I am extremely disappointed about this 3rd guy, and with the extenuating circumstances, I have decided to look myself. Things are converging such that I think the role is going to be a flop. We keep doing unrelated things in other parts of the company that make it difficult for my division to win work, and I have 6 months of evidence that my company does not REALLY support what we are trying to do with this role, and more broadly, I have 4 yrs of evidence that my division is not supported. We have had the same growth plan and poor results for 4 yrs. They bring in new leadership and tell them to grow, but they don’t support them with money or staff.

    I knew there was a spectrum of possible outcomes for this role, and I told myself if it was on the bad end, I was done. I like what I do, and I am good at it, so I am going to apply for basically my same job at a competitor in my home base location. My type of work is more “bread and butter” work for them, so it should be a better career path and I won’t be putting out so much wasted effort.

    My question is how to pursue. There are two open jobs that would fit me. I could apply online. I also have a couple of good contacts that I could reach out to, and a former coworker who is now a vendor and knows everyone there, too. I hesitate because my industry is small and gossipy, and I hate to put people on the spot. (Case study-a former coworker told a current coworker casually that he may be interested in coming back–everyone here knew by the end of the day.)

    Would you guys apply to one or both, reach out to a contact before, after, or never? I guess I am leaning towards either asking if one person knows anything about the role, or just applying at letting the people who work there know that I did.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Apply online first. Then reach out to one of your best contacts there and let them know (in confidentiality of course–if they can’t manage to do that and keep mouth shut, don’t use them) that you’ve applied and are interested. Ideally, you’d want to connect with the manager of the job you’re going for, or as close a connection to them you might have, so there’s not a lot of “blabbing” on the food chain. LOL!
      Given you’d like to be at your ‘home base’ anyway, it is more than enough reason, aside from the other issues with the current job.

      1. ObvAnon*

        Thanks, good advice. I like this approach because you don’t make it weird for the contact. They can tell you our help you as much or little as they want.

  115. Free Meerkats*

    Since I’m now in a quasi-management position, I got a copy of the first draft of the mayor’s consultants’ report on our department. Apparently, the External Llama Facility Permitting and Inspection Division all got together and gave perfect scores. 90+%, across the board.

    I know most of these folks and their job and process satisfaction are nowhere near that. I have the urge to ask them WTF?

  116. Lily B*

    Wondering if anyone has advice for dealing with a manager who makes you feel like you can’t do anything right — but when you ask for specific feedback on how to improve, doesn’t really have any? She has given me positive performance reviews and a promotion, but her day-to-day attitude (interrupting, shutting things down, scapegoating me when something goes wrong etc.) sends the opposite message. I’m the most junior person on our team, but from chatting with another (female) coworker, it seems like I’m not the only one who feels this way.

    I’ve been reporting to her for about a year now (old manager left the company and is trying to hire me away) and up until now, I’ve always been confident in my skills and motivated about work, and have gotten great feedback in every job I’ve had. Now I just feel deflated all the time and dread going into the office. Our manager seems like an overall nice person and I don’t think she’s doing this intentionally, but I don’t know how to address this, since it seems like a problem of tone or attitude. And maybe I’m imagining it, but it seems like she only treats her female reports this way.

    Here is what I’ve been doing so far — any thoughts or ideas? Or do I just need to accept that this is the way it is, and start planning to leave?
    1) In our one-on-one meetings, I explicitly ask for feedback on things I can do differently or areas she’d like me to work on. Have really tried to hammer home that I welcome hearing this kind of feedback and won’t be offended. When she does mention something she’d like me to work on, I make it a priority and try to demonstrate improvement.
    2) She tends to heavily edit or pick at work or projects I send her, so if I need to get something done fast, I’ve been routing it through one of my (male) team members instead. I’ll write something, then ask if they wouldn’t mind reviewing it for me and sending to our boss, so it’s coming from them instead of me. The problem with this is that I don’t get credit for everything I’m doing.
    3) I’m planning to ask one of my team members to grab coffee and ask him to be candid with me if he has noticed anything about my work or communication style that needs improvement, and if he has ideas on how I can work with our manager more effectively. Who knows, maybe I am doing something wrong I don’t realize?

    1. Birch*

      It doesn’t sound like any of this something you’re doing! IMO some people are just short and snippy with others, maybe your manager doesn’t jive with you for whatever reason (you know how some people just rub you the wrong way for no good reason?). If other people are noticing the same things, that suggests that it’s not about you.

      What has she said when you revisit something you’ve tried to improve? Does she acknowledge that, or does she forget she asked you to work on it, or brush it off? And you should get credit for the work you do! What kind of editing and picking is going on? How does the final draft of those projects look compared to the ones you’ve sent through a male coworker?

  117. Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Had a job interview last week, did not get the job. Frownpound. Three rejections in 24 hours, a little rough. But mega appreciate all the good juju because it WAS a really great interview! AND I just got out of a different job interview that also went well. Fingers crossed again, y’all!
    All the good vibes for anyone else interviewing next week!

  118. Figgie*

    I have an odd question. I will be able to retire when my spouse is 65 and we no longer need to worry about health insurance. I will be 68 at that time and work in IT. I am pretty valuable to my company, as I am kind of a purple squirrel. When I started here, it was a small shop and so I wore many hats. It’s now a large shop and I still wear all of the original hats plus a few more.

    This particular company has always focused on face time and while I still enjoy what I do, I will be ready to cut back and want to work from home a couple of days a week and start decreasing my hours. I am fairly certain that the company will resist any and all changes and I need some help in figuring out the best way to approach this.

    My spouse says to wait until we are both covered by Medicare and then just tell them that this is what I plan to do and if they resist, pick a date to be done and give them 2 weeks notice.

    My preference would be to work from home two days a week and then in 3 months cut back to four days a week and in another 3 months down to three days a week, retiring three months after that.

    I know that they will need at least two and possibly three people to replace me, but they have always been extremely rigid about face time and I don’t know how to approach this in a way that will be effective.

    Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

    1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Since you’re valuable, and since you’re heading towards retirement (and thus won’t need a reference), I think you have more leverage than if those weren’t the case! In my workplace, it would be reasonable for an employee to say “I’m planning for this to be my last year before retirement, and I’d like to make the transition gradually. Here’s my ideal situation. What do you think?” They might not go for your exact plan, but if they say “No, you have to work full time in the office up until the end” then pointing out to them that that would make you retire sooner, they might see the benefit in being flexible. I’d also keep framing it as a transition and a special case, to head off the panic of “but if we let you work from home and part time, then EVERYONE will want to work from home and part time AND WE WON’T BE ABLE TO STOP THEM!”

      1. Figgie*

        Transition is the perfect word and one that I had not thought of. Thank you for responding. I really appreciate it!

    2. Kes*

      I agree that it’s probably best to approach in terms of transition planning and gradually training/transitioning since you wear so many hats.

      However, I also agree that it’s probably safest to wait until you can just cut them off if needed, if they react badly, since you know they may not be on board with what you want.

      1. LuckySophia*

        Cautionary tale from a relative’s former workplace: Fergus, that company’s purple squirrel, was a 30-year veteran of the firm who wore many hats –AND was the only guy in the place who could perform a certain function that was essential to landing new business.

        On his 64th birthday, he went to management to say that he wanted to retire when he turned 65, so that he and his wife could travel, and that he had developed a proposed a one-year transition plan in which the company would hire, and he would extensively train, his replacement for that One Certain Function. Along with training any other warm bodies they might need to cover some of the other work he did. He really didn’t want to leave the company in the lurch.

        Gentle reader, you guessed it: Not only did they reject his lovely transition plan…they informed him that, effective immediately, his hours (and salary) would be cut in half, and that they were accepting his resignation in 60 days. No, they never replaced him; they outsourced his Certain Function to a vendor.

      2. Elizabeth the Ginger*

        Yes, this is a good point and gets at something I meant to say and forgot – if you think there’s a chance that they might retaliate against your very reasonable request by getting draconian on you, wait until you’re really free to go.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I tried to give my employer plenty of time to react to my retirement. I had read several articles that said that it was the courteous and loyal approach for a good employee, even one well below senior leadership level. I ended up doing the same job as ever for several months until my replacement was hired less than two weeks before I left, with only time for a hasty pass-down. What I’d expected to be a respectful transition turned out to be the same old job for several more months plus an uncomfortable lot of “short timer” and “old fogey” and “rocking chair” comments that got really awkward and worn out long before my leave date. If I had it to do over I’d give two weeks notice like anyone else who takes another job and moves on. That would have worked better for them and me.

  119. Birch*

    What do you do when your boss is sometimes snippy and blamey toward a colleague but you don’t witness it and it only happens irregularly?

    We’re a small team comprised of our boss, me, and a small handful of others who I often co-supervise and mentor with my boss. I heard from a colleague Marigold that our boss Beatrice recently yelled at her for something that was totally out of her control and not her fault–a technical issue. Beatrice has once before scolded Marigold through a group email the whole team could see, and Marigold has told me that Beatrice got really mad at a coworker who left before I joined the team, for basically not having enough work to do, which seems like something that Beatrice should take charge of rather than blaming her report. Also, we recently had someone leave who was well meaning but truly incompetent and frustrating, but at least I never witnessed Beatrice react badly to him–there were some serious conversations during meetings, but he was never publicly scolded or yelled at, so why is Marigold getting yelled at for things that are not her fault at all? It hasn’t got to the level of anything truly abusive, I think, and I really enjoy the work I do. But I’m 1. terrified that Beatrice is going to get angry at me, 2. worried that Marigold is going to internalize this and believe it’s okay to be treated like this, and 3. worried that I’m supposed to be hiring a handful of new people soon for the same role as the former coworker who didn’t have enough work–so what if that situation happens again? I really do not want to confront Beatrice about this as I think it would jeopardize the group dynamic for everyone, and since it’s only happened a few times, I don’t want to make it into a bigger deal than it is. Still, I feel awful for Marigold, because when I was in her role (in a different team) my boss was amazingly supportive and I wish everyone could have that experience.

    So far I’ve just been trying to mentor Marigold and use AAM’s advice on how to be a good manager, and point out that it’s not okay to be yelled at, and that she can come to me if she needs support. Is there anything else I could or should do at this point, or just see what happens?

    1. Lily B*

      Oh wow, do we work in the same office? In my comment above, I’m describing a similar situation where I’m basically the Marigold. Interesting to think about this from the perspective of a teammate.
      Do you think your boss has legitimate concerns about Marigold’s performance?

      1. Birch*

        Wow! That is really similar and I’m sorry you’re going through this too! In my situation, I don’t think Beatrice has legitimate concerns about Marigold. She did about the coworker who left–she was constantly complaining about him to all of us (which I also think isn’t right) but never overheated at him. Our Marigold is great–right where she should be in terms of learning the field, friendly, hardworking, eager to learn.

    2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Birch and Lily B both of your situations remind me of a boss I had back in my retail days. She would just pick someone to be her scapegoat and then really hound them until they eventually left. They couldn’t do anything right, there would be anonymous “complaints” about them, and she would scold them publicly. I didn’t really realize it was a pattern (even after I became her target). She had one employee that she drove out when I first started there. After she left, then it was me who was constantly doing something wrong. But, we hired a new guy not long after that and I got off the hook for a few months until he quit. Then she came back to me. That’s when I put it together. I wasn’t doing anything differently, but suddenly it was all wrong when it hadn’t been while she had someone else to target.

      I have no idea if that’s what’s going on with either of you but parts of what each of you said in your posts reminded me of it. It might be something to watch for.

      1. Birch*

        You may be right. I think she may also just be difficult to work with. We had a department-wide meeting recently with other teams and our boss was out of town. We mentioned some issues and asked for advice, and the other teams’ reaction was basically that they had already told our boss those things would be problems and she went ahead and did them anyway, which is a major part of what is causing her frustration with us–that we’re not able to fully fix the situation that she created.

    3. valentine*

      You’re way too invested in Marigold’s feelings. Is there a reason you’re accepting her version of things? Was the scolding merited? Unless you’ve heard Beatrice actually yell or chastise a blameless person, is it possible Marigold experiences/characterizes reprimands or any negative talk from the boss as “yelling” and/or didn’t specify that what Beatrice said those people needed to tell her about the tech/not enough work issues at all/sooner? There’s no point telling Marigold Beatrice’s behavior isn’t okay while you’re condoning it. You seem to have standing to speak to Beatrice about the yelling, to say people will work better without it, and suggesting private discussions of errors, if you think that’s best. Maybe have a meeting with Beatrice to get on the same page about those things, if you know she wants to share those kinds of decisions with you.

  120. RagingPreggo*

    First, I want to just vent….
    Maternity leave in the United States is a cruel, ridiculous joke unless you work for an amazing employeer who knows what it means to be human. Having to hoard and bank your PTO days to get even close to equivalent of 12 (well, 16 here in my state) weeks is damn near impossible with a slow accrual system and, well, the need for life.

    Second… my WTF moment of the century:
    I’m about 18 weeks along…due in March.. I just got around to telling everyone at work a couple of weeks ago. My coworker is also pregnant, but due in the beginning of November. I told the (relatively) new department VP (a single man, for context) my news. He congratulated me, of course, then asked some additional details like sex and name choices, etc. Then he immediately asked me, “Is your maternity leave going to overlap with [coworker’s]?” I replied, “No.” Then after a pause he goes, “Well, thank you for planning it that way. I appreciate it.” Excuse me?

    Now,
    1. I don’t know him well enough to know if he’s a sarcastic person but his tone was pretty neutral to me.
    2. Even if it was a joke, a bad and inappropriate one, right?
    3. Who thinks it’s OK to SAY or IMPLY that? (Yep- I had my coworker’s pregnancy on the brain while trying to conceive.)

    I was actually horrified by this, still am. Do I have a right to be or am I overreacting?

    2. Amber Rose*

      I mean, it’s insensitive and weird and inappropriate, but not really that appalling? He didn’t insult you or anything.

    3. Tigger*

      WTF. I am so sorry about this jerk. I wonder if he has said something similar to the other coworker?

    4. Almond Butter*

      Your overreacting, I think your going to get something to the same tune from most people as you both get closer to delivering. Its really not odd, and no one means it literally.

      Most offices I have worked in when someone gets pregnant it seems like everyone gets pregnant and someone will inevitably say to the non pregnant people don’t drink the water. No one really thinks that you can get pregnant from the water.

    5. Auntie Social*

      He just has a weird, dry sense of humor. I’d answer “Anything for the company!” or “Anything to make it easy on you, Bob.”

    6. Nita*

      Probably just a case of foot-in-mouth for him. Of course it sounds ridiculous, and he might very well be embarrassed that he was trying to say something besides congratulations, and *that* came out.

    7. rocklobsterbot*

      Since he seemed sincerely interested and ok with it to begin with, I’d take it as a super awkward attempt at a joke.

    8. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      Not to be a downer, but to forewarn you – you’ll probably go through sick time more quickly once you have a baby/toddler than you used to, both because the kid will get sick and you’re more likely to get sick. I found it stressful that after years of maxing out the amount of sick time I could accumulate/roll over, my maternity leave used it all up – and then I started chewing through my new sick time at an alarming rate. (The school year started at the start of September and I’ve used about 18 hours of sick time so far…) I don’t think I would have done anything differently but I wish I’d known to expect it. I’m working on not feeling guilty if my kid gets sick…

    9. Overeducated*

      Should’ve kept his mouth shut. Hope he was joking. Yes, bad and inappropriate. Yes, the way we handle maternity leave makes me mad ALL THE TIME – we’ll give you next to nothing and then blame you for what little you do take!

      I have made a similar mistake, though, and I think the very fact that our workplaces are not structured to handle this makes saying crappy things more likely. I was having lunch with a friend who works in another department on her last week in the office before her maternity leave, and I asked some kind of question about her workload during her leave, and it was a topic I really regret asking about at all. I asked because when I had my first kid I worked alone and didn’t have to think about logistical issues in a team environment, and I was wondering how management in our organization deals with it (for totally selfish reasons – I want another kid!), but even asking a general question on that topic is too close to implying that people are responsible for their coworkers or their department being properly staffed. She answered something like “well, they’ll get done what they can and I’m sorry but I have to go on leave”. I explained why I was asking, assured her that I absolutely support her taking the leave (especially since we only get the minimum required by law), and getting the work done is management’s problem, but it was still a foot in mouth moment.

    10. Four lights*

      Bad joke. If it comes up again you could say, “That’s really insensitive. You can’t actually plan when you get pregnant and there are actually many people who have difficulty even getting pregnant.”

    11. Alianora*

      Overreacting a little. It sounds like a dry sense of humor to me. Ill-advised, but I wouldn’t be horrified over that the way you are. I doubt it crossed his mind that you would think he actually meant it.

    12. LilySparrow*

      It doesn’t sound like a joke to me, as much as a brain fart or faulty filter.

      It sounds like his first reaction was along the lines of, “Oh, good, that’s better for us.” But of course, that’s not a good thing to say because it’s very callous. So his filter caught it and tried to turn it into something better.

      Unsuccessfully.

    13. OldJules*

      I LOLed because he sounds clueless as all get out. Why would he think your maternity leave work overlap someone who is due in November? You are 18 weeks along. Simple math should have easily solved that. I don’t think he is exposed to the feminine/family world enough to know. It sounds like something my brother (when he was young and clueless) would have assumed *face palms*

      Funnily enough… I plan my babies around work. Crazy as it sounds. I was blessed with the ability to do so. Not everyone gets that lucky. Idk if a single guy would have know tbh. Especially if he is not exposed to having siblings when he was old enough to understand or family who are open about talking about the topic.

  121. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Quick note: I’ve been receiving more requests from people lately to delete their comments after they have second thoughts about them later. I will generally do it if you’re concerned about anonymity … but I do want to ask people to think that through before posting because (1) I may not even see your request if you make it in the comment section itself and (2) people get frustrated if they take the time to reply to you, then come back later and can’t find what they wrote. (#2 is separate from the issue of comments getting deleted because they violated a site rule, obviously.) Thanks!

  122. Anon For Always*

    So my boss came to talk to me about lightening the “load” today. It sounds great, except that she didn’t ask me what I might need help with, or what I could give up. She described some grand plan, which at worst is going to cause a significant amount of work and at best will pretty much have me break even. Of course when I raised my concerns that this plan would potentially cause me more work, she told me that I needed to be more flexible.

    Now she wants a list of everything that I do, so she can go through and see what she can farm out to others. It’s deeply frustrating. I’m in mid-management with a team of my own (which I have zero time to actually mange, because I keep getting crap piled onto my plate), and so I’d at least like to be treated as an adult and have a say about what got passed off and what didn’t.

    Oh, and one of my direct reports quit this week (the second in less than six months – and I can’t blame them, I’d leave if I could), so you know yay!!

  123. This_sucks*

    I just found out that my previous employer is trying to deny my unemployment claim by telling the investigator false information. The details I got yesterday include defamatory remarks about my character and now I’m worried that this info is being circulated outside of the unemployment process.
    I’m doing everything I can to stick up for myself in the unemployment process but I don’t really know how to defend myself without any evidence.

    2. Bex*

      Do you have copies of past performance reviews? That can help prove that you didn’t have any performance or disciplinary issues.

    3. Bea*

      The good news is you know not to use these snakes as a reference. I’m so sorry. Please continue to fight for yourself.

      My experience is they will need proof to deny you benefits. Signed write ups and documents showing you were involved in misconduct. Maybe they’re scummy enough to doctor things but that’s really far fetched. They’re just hoping to bully you into backing down.

      I’ve seen very few employers who try to screw a person out of UI win.

      1. Slartibartfast*

        Yep, I had one say I violated a policy which didn’t exist. I appealed simply that to my knowledge there was no such policy. They didn’t respond after that, because the burden is on them to prove it. And they couldn’t, so they just let the time run out. Arses.
        They also had me ineligible for rehire, when I explained the situation, the HR person said “Oh, vindictive ex boss.” Statement of fact, checking off a box voice. Apparently this sort of thing is common.

  124. FaintlyMacabre*

    I posted last week about being interested in a retiring coworkers job. I talked to coworker- unfortunately, she has decided to stay on for another year. On the plus side, she did say my name did come up when talking about possibly training someone to take over. On the downside, she only works part time- I would probably still be stuck working with annoying relative/coworker. It is an area I have considered moving into, and having a nice chunk of time for learning the job before taking it over would be great, but I’m not sure if I can stick out another year with coworker/relative. Sigh. I’ll talk to my manager, express interest and find out more, but I’m guessing I’m just going to have to find another job.

    1. valentine*

      A new employer may be best because, even if you get away from relative, you can’t be sure to stay away, and it sounds like they know they annoy you and want to double down.

  125. JamJam*

    Is it unprofessional to come to work with wet hair? Not drenched or anything but.. still drying? I have naturally curly long hair which takes ~3 hours to dry completely.

    1. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’m sure that it is but that doesn’t stop me. I wouldn’t do it in a public facing role, but most days no sees me since I have a back office position so I don’t worry about it.

    2. Peaches*

      I think it depends on how front facing your job is. If you work in an office where you have no contact with customers, I don’t think it’s a huge deal as long is it’s not sopping wet.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I do it all the time!
      It can look a little unpolished, but for day-to-day workdays, I think it’s no big deal. However, if you have any kind of meeting or “appearance” you should probably dry & style it, or stop in the restroom or something to style when you arrive. Can you keep a portable blow dryer, hot brush, etc., in your desk?

    4. beanie beans*

      I feel your pain! I switched to showering at night and just having not-as-nice-looking curly hair, but I came in to work with wet hair daily for many years.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yep, this is a curly problem. I actually think my hair probably looks better slightly damp, as it gets frizzy when it’s done drying :P

        1. Lady Kelvin*

          Not just curly! I have relatively straight hair, shower at night, and still show up to work in the morning with wet hair. It eventually dries and I’ve decided I don’t care enough to blow dry it. But, I don’t usually see anyone for the first 3 hours of my day, so that makes things a bit different.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      I suppose it depends on how conservative your company is, as well as whether you have a customer-facing role. I wouldn’t worry about much.

      I come in with wet hair every day and no one even notices or cares, and I don’t care if they notice or care anyway; I’m not in a customer-facing role and my company has a less formal culture.

    6. Anon From Here*

      I’ve been showing up to work with wet (long, curly) hair for years and it’s never been a problem. At my current gig I braid it down every day to keep it controlled — which makes it take even longer to dry thoroughly. I don’t think my co-workers can even tell that it’s still damp around our lunch hour.

      When I’ve been a solo practitioner attorney, I’d wear it up or up-ish for clients so that it’s not big and poofy and frizzy all over the place. Like in a French twist kind of thing on the back of my head. No complaints from clients or comments from colleagues.

    7. Nita*

      Hmm. For me, it would be more professional than coming to work with dry hair. My hair looks more or less normal when wet, but defies gravity when dry. I suppose hair gel is the answer, but so far I’ve been choosing a half hour more sleep over the ability to leave my hair down without resembling a pencil troll.

    8. Overeducated*

      I feel like there was a discussion of this here on AAM where a lot of people were horrified and thought it was like coming to work partially dressed, but it had literally never occurred to me before that it would be unprofessional.

    9. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      It sounds like for your hair type, it probably isn’t a huge deal. There’s a difference, I think, in a person like me (thin, straight, short hair) coming to work with wet hair as opposed to a person with curly or thick hair doing it.

    10. JeanB in NC*

      I come to work with wet hair every day. I try to towel dry it really well, and I use an additive that says it helps to dry faster (my hair is long and straight). But unless it’s dripping wet and you don’t work for a really uptight company (like high finance or law) I wouldn’t worry about it. My hair actually looks pretty much the same when it’s damp and when it’s dry, so I don’t think it’s a big deal.

    11. Someone Else*

      It depends on the office. I do not personally think this is at all unprofessional. It’s fine and normal and I wouldn’t blink at it. This has also been the case everywhere I’ve worked. But I do know some offices would frown upon it, and may even have something about it in the dress code.
      If you’re asking just for opinions, this is fine. If you’re asking what to do in your specific office, you gotta read the room. What we say here may or may not apply.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        I think there could some degree of reputational risk – people who don’t know you well and just see you with wet hair in the mornings could build an impression of you not having your act together. From my perspective it’s probably fine in more junior roles but I’d avoid it if you are looking seriously to move up in your org. If your finances allow it, but a good dryer. I bought one for $75, sit under it for 20 min and my thick curly hair is then 80% dry.

  126. Now I Have To Do That Too*

    First time poster.

    I recently started looking for a new job and had an in-person and a phone interview this week. In both interviews, they asked in depth about my project management experience. I have “de facto” project management experience, as in the “wrangling my coworkers to get me their parts of the project so I can do my part” kind, but have not had official training, certification, etc. I am surprised that this keeps coming up because I work in a field not really known for needing official project management experience.

    I’m not going to lie in an interview, but if this keeps coming up I’m afraid it’s going to limit my prospects. So, my question is two-fold:
    1. Has anyone else noticed this trend, or was it a fluke on my part?
    2. Can anyone recommend any online project management training, classes, etc. that worked for them? Of course I can Google, but I’d like to hear from real people what worked for them.

    Thank you!

      1. Now I Have To Do That Too*

        No – that’s what I find most confusing. In both instances they are creative roles that might need a person with a bit of “project management” skills, but not a person that is an actual project manager.

        1. GreyNerdShark*

          sounds to me like “project manager” is “can you herd cats reliably”?

          They may well have been burnt by people who couldn’t get the required ducks all at the right angle and find that is required for the job.

  127. yeine*

    oh wednesday i had what i thought was an honest conversation about stuff we thought could be improved about our workplace. we prefaced by saying were talking privately and honestly, too! now, in the scale of AAM things, my workplace is a wonderful place filled with magical and incredible heroes who have never once harmed the hair on the head of an insect, so they weren’t like “i am harrassed or my boss is a psychopath.” (i like my boss.)

    but you know, it could always be better. he gave some weird answers to this question, and i was surprised about how general and distanced they were, especially because he got shifted to a different job somewhat different from his original job. i said i was surprised that he didn’t have anything about the product process, and he just shrugged.

    today he announces that he’s leaving without another job lined up. he’s a software engineer in the sfbay so this isn’t a *horrifying* decision, but — i’m not sure if he was just being cagey with me, which kind of hurts, or if he’s just ready to move on unrelated to anything else. it just seems like such a bad idea to leave one job without another one lined up! just because you’re looking for something new! he’s only been here like two years, maybe two and a half.

    IDK. maybe i’m making this about myself.

      1. yeine*

        i’m sure that’s part of the case. but i thought that he would have said so, in the context of the conversation.

    2. Reba*

      A conversation can be honest and also not-telling-everything-that’s-on-my-soul. Of course it would be great if everyone was forthcoming, but don’t be offended. It sounds like the shrugging/vagueness *was* a kind of communication. If he was already thinking of leaving, he probably felt it wasn’t worth the trouble to shake things up.

      1. Lissa*

        I feel like if the guy had written to AAM people would be telling him not to let slip about his leaving before he announces it in a lot of cases, too, so he might’ve just been being hesitant. Or maybe he’s leaving due to another issue, and when he had the conversation wasn’t sure how it would go yet?

        1. yeine*

          if i was him, i don’t know if i would have said anything either, which is why i’m trying not to take it personally.

          it just seemed like i was blindsided by this person who considers me his friend and we were trying to have an honest conversation.

      2. CM*

        Seconding this — my guess is he already knew he was out the door, but wasn’t ready to announce that. So he was probably already pretty checked out and no longer cared about how to improve things.

    3. LilySparrow*

      I understand why you feel blindsided. You were very invested in speaking openly. And he wasn’t willing to be open with you.

      Of course that’s uncomfortable for you, but he didn’t do anything wrong. Considering the timing, it may have appeared to him that you suspected he was planning to leave and were trying to weasel information out of him. Which of course would make anyone feel cagey.

      You couldn’t know that, but it could easily look that way to him. Just an unfortunate coincidence.

  128. Student Moving Out*

    How much contact do you have with your workplace when sick/out for a while due to injury?
    Meaning colleagues and your boss, and updates about the length of my recovery etc aside.

    I had some bad luck with a skydiving accident (I’m gonna be fine, nothing permanent, lucky me) and now I’m wondering about the etiquette, I guess?
    I’m a part time student assistant at one chair at my university and I’m still active in an informal messenger group with my fellow student workers. I get along really well with my direct boss, who’s a PhD student, so I’ve sporadically updated him as well.

    How would this work in a full-time job or rather, a more formal job setting?
    Does it fully depend on the relationship one has with their coworkers and boss? With such an unusual accident leading to my sick leave, is it expected to get in touch like once a week to let everyone know I’m okay etc.? Am I overthinking this?

    1. Lily B*

      Glad you’re ok! I don’t think you need to check in with them unless something about your return date/recovery changes. Also not sure it’s a great look to be messenging with other employees while they’re out. Maybe you send one message like “Hey guys, going to be signing off for awhile to focus on my recovery, but I’m doing ok and looking forward to seeing you when I’m back in the office!”

      1. Colette*

        Agreed – one message to let them know how long you’ll be out, then you only need to get in touch when that changes. Personally, I’d also follow up a day or two before I came back just to confirm. (If they send a card or flowers, it would also be good to reply to thank them, of course.)

        I was out unexpectedly when I broke my leg a couple of weeks ago, and that’s what I did.

    2. valentine*

      Doctor’s note saying I will be out x amount of time/I say I will report the following business day, set my OOO to that, and no further contact/interaction of any kind until I’m at work the day I said I’d be.

  129. Brent*

    I have a new boss that I can’t stand. She is unwilling to admit that she doesn’t know anything (even though she’s new to the job and needs to ask questions), she gets defensive and angry when asked questions she doesn’t have an answer for (which happens often, because she’s new here, and that’s also to be expected), and almost everything she says is in this cutesy, super-sweet voice, like she’s talking to a child. I hated that when I was a child and I don’t hate it any less now. I also manage a team and they can’t stand her either, so I have my hands full trying to prevent full-scale meltdowns on a daily basis – she randomly pounces on them to give them talkings-to about seriously crazy things, and she could bypass me and discipline/fire them for whatever reason, so they’re freaking out.

    I’m currently interviewing at several other companies, but it’s early stages and this industry takes awhile. It could be 2-3 months before I can get out. I might have the option to move to another role at the end of this month that would involve a lot less time in the office – but it would still be under my boss, who wouldn’t have any say in whether I got it and would be really pissed off if I did. I’m not sure if that’s much better when it would only be 2-3 months at the longest, but I’m honestly worried I’m just going to walk off the job one day if I don’t figure out something else. Any advice?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Uh oh. When I’ve had this problem I had to actually lean in to this coworker – I took them out for drinks after work and we chatted about stuff, which in that case helped because I saw her as more of a whole person than the Person Who Was Driving Me Nuts. She also felt more comfortable with me after that so she was able to let go some of the defensive behaviors that weren’t working well between us. But, if she had really been a jerk, that wouldn’t have helped me because drinks would have gone badly. Also you have to be genuinely willing to like her, which you may not be open to at this point.

      1. Brent*

        If she wasn’t my boss, I’d go for this approach – I find even the most difficult people pretty easy to get along with over a drink or anything else that’s very specifically not-work. But we don’t have the sort of relationship or work culture where I could spend one-on-one time with her outside her office. We’ve done a few work lunches now and I can’t even figure out if she has any hobbies. She is extremely committed to only talking about work while at work…as long as any questions you ask have easy answers. Anything else and she snaps at me and then clams up.

        I was actually predisposed to like her because everyone else wasn’t, and I’m contrary like that…she has a strong physical resemblance and very similar name to my previous boss, who was gently transitioned out of the role about 6 months ago after a year of being fairly disastrous. Some of the comments prior to her official start struck me as knee-jerk reactions and sometimes borderline sexist, so I was pretty firm about giving her a fair shot and shutting down any unproductive speculation. I’m kind of surprised I haven’t gotten more I-told-you-so’s. But I honestly don’t think I will ever be willing to like her as a manager barring some fundamental changes, which is why I’m planning to leave.

    2. CM*

      I had a boss like this! What worked for me was to act like she was the authority figure and act very deferential while bringing up issues as if they were her idea. Also doing the toddler management move where instead of asking open-ended questions, you give a choice between two alternatives that you can live with so that she feels like she’s the one making the decision. (All of this sucks, I know. I’m not saying this is great advice, it’s just what worked for me in a similar situation.)

    3. valentine*

      Take the transfer. It’s worth it to do anything you can to improve your lot when you feel despondent. I don’t suppose empathy would help, you saying “Hey, understandable you don’t know everything”? When I was a mentor, our position was that, when we didn’t know the answer, we knew who to ask. This person is wild in a way that your knowing more details would probably make things worse for you. If she’s embarrassed now, she may feel downright humiliated if you know why.

  130. Lissa*

    This is really awkward … someone I work with is trying to get me to help in “sussing out” the political beliefs of a third person. To try to use a neutral example, most of us here are cat people (including me and coworker). Coworker believes third person might be a dog person, based on things like not joining in on conversations about cats, leaving a conversation about going to cat event on the weekend while looking uncomfortable, etc.

    I am deeeeeply weirded out by this, especially since coworker has stated their intent to be confrontation/stand up for cats loudly if third person is proved to be a fan of dogs. I personally think even if she likes dogs “in her heart” whyyy does this have to be dug out and argued about at work?! I don’t see that this is going to lead anywhere good.

    2. Lily B*

      Ugh that’s awful. So your coworker is trying to confirm whether your other coworker has other political beliefs, just so they can cause a huge confrontation about it AT WORK? Do you think they’d listen to you if you tried talking to them about it?
      “Maybe Susan is a dog person, or maybe she just doesn’t like talking about politics at work. To be honest with you, I’m not super comfortable with it myself. I don’t want to alienate anyone I have to see every day at the office. Don’t you think it would be more productive to channel that energy into [calling Congresspeople/volunteering/fundraising]?”

      1. Lissa*

        Yeah basically! I don’t think coworker would listen to me about why this is a bad idea based on things previously said, and I think they think I’m being wishy-washy/mealy mouthed by not having the same depth of feeling about this. When coworker brought it up to me I was just really WTF and said I didn’t want to be involved, CW said something like “it’s too important to ignore” and I suddenly really needed to flee to the washroom. I’m great with awkward situations as you can tell. Hoping she won’t bring it up to me again but I think she thought I would be on her side and not sure if I’m lumped in with the enemy or what. Apparently you’re not allowed to feel a 6 about an issue, it needs to be a 10 all the time and if it’s important it’s always worth starting crap and possibly risking getting written up. Luckily due to work setup I don’t see CW every day and see “Susan” even less frequently so maybe I can just hide under the nearest piece of furniture until this blows over, if ever.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      It sounds like the person who engaged you on this is a drama llama. Definitely bow out. The cowoker’s secret feelings are subtle enough that nobody is even sure what they are, so they don’t need to be confronted about it; they’re keeping it to themselves already.

    4. Bex*

      Shut this shit down. Tell the coworker that the third person’s political beliefs are not your business, and you will not participate in any fact finding missions.

    5. Celeste*

      Unless your goal is to become as socially dysfunctional as this person is, you need to give this a hard nope.

      1. Lissa*

        OH yeah no worries there! Definitely not getting involved. Nope nope nope. Going to also wildly scale back interactions with coworker in the future too because now I have no idea if they’re going to take some random fact about me as evidence of who knows what.

        1. Anon From Here*

          Well, exactly. At some point you’re going to be “wrong” on something, in her view, and then you’ll be in the doghouse or on the receiving end of a confrontation, yourself. But you can’t lose an argument that you don’t participate in.

        2. valentine*

          Grey-rock them and dial back on political stuff, and possibly other personal stuff, in general.

  131. Lily*

    I need some perspective on a job searching issue. First, I already posted it somewhere under a job-searching related thread but now I’m not sure if I’m way off base. Second, this is more in theory than a problem right now because I got a job some time after this incident, at a reasonably good company (obviously NOT the company in question). So:
    I was job searching in August, and in the middle of September Company called me. The resume I had sent to them said I was ready to start in October but I was assuming that someone who needs someone right now would call a bit earlier. Also, in my country the usual notice periods are more like one to three months.
    So, they called and wanted me to trial work a day on short notice. Without ever having talked to me. The interview would be at the end of the trial work day. I (needing a job and not wanting to burn bridges) stayed nice and told them I was pretty swamped the next to weeks and could come in the first week of October. To which they replied: “Oh, that’s bad, we were hoping to find someone who could start in October already!”
    We chose a day where I’d come to trial work (me hoping to get another offer in the meantime). Also, they didn’t cover travel expenses and it was out of state. I ended up cancelling the trial work later. But my questions are:
    1. Am I right to be a bit miffed by it? “Come to work a day” is not unheard of in my field but it’s AFTER the interview normally. Also, you come in, see their meetings and facilities, meet the team and usually don’t do any real work during it. They sounded like they did want me to work-work and not “meet-the-team”-work.
    2. Is this a red flag about them?
    3. I’m in a field where the culture depends A LOT on the department heads. Am I right to mentally mark that department head that I never want to work for him?
    4. Is there a better way to react to such suggestions? Preferably without burning a bridge or kicking myself out of the process?

    1. Four lights*

      4. From what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like you burned your bridges, as long as you were polite. They may not be happy you scheduled a day and then backed out, but these things happen.

      1. Sounds crummy to me, but some companies try to get people to do some work so they can see how they’ll be. It’s a good idea for the company, but is a terrible idea for applicants, which is why good companies don’t do it.

      I don’t know if it’s a red flag, maybe yellow. Sometimes good companies have not great hiring practices.
      Also, were they going to pay you? If you’re actually working for them (ask opposed to some short interview test/writing exercise) you should be paid.

      1. Lily*

        No, these trial work days generally aren’t paid at all. I didn’t exactly back out on trial working, I just took another offer and thus removed myself from their process. I don’t think they saw it as backing out.
        Would there have been a way of saying “we can talk about trial work but only after the first interview” without sounding really obnoxious?

    2. valentine*

      Yes, yes, if he was your contact who suggested this weirdness, and yes. Ideally, you would’ve checked whether your locality requires this work be paid (I am thinking yes), said the industry standard is post-interview trial work, asked why they were reversing that, and said you would need more details (and, if I’m right, mentioning the payment law here). I’m glad you found something else because, unless they want free work from random people, it’s superweird that they want to spend a lot of time bringing people in and setting them up to work for an entire day. I wouldn’t assume this kind of security risk. If the work is something like artwork that they can steal/use, someone you’d report on Clients from Hell, this makes more sense, but is still weird in that it’s a labor-intensive scam.

      1. Lily*

        It was the department head’s admin who informed me of this process, so I’m pretty sure it’s the department head’s idea. Also, I’m not in a field where you could “steal” anything except maybe time for grunt work. I guess they just wanted to “examine the work/attitude/etc” of the applicants really well and didn’t think about it from the other side. Still, it was weird.

  132. Applesauced*

    (sorry if not work related, but it *is* income generating related….)
    Has anyone had luck selling things on Poshmark?
    I’ve had a few items (NWT or gently used, for half their retail prices) up for about a week and haven’t seen any action – no likes, no favs, no comments…. I chose them over eBay for ease, and over ThreadUp for supposed monetary return.
    Any tips or success stories?

    1. Reba*

      It seems to me (not direct experience, sorry!) that activity matters — following lots of people for return follows, being part of the “parties” etc.

    2. ThatPoshGal*

      Poshmark can be a valid job or side hustle.

      Sharing and following other sellers is very key. Also key are clear descriptions with photos, measurements and brand name.

      There is a particular popular site with a subforum devoted to Poshmark. It’s a respectful and helpful group who have many tips/tricks and can offer advice on your closet in particular.

      Good luck!

  133. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

    Stop the presses! I have had a sighting of the rarest of events: employee feedback being used and a good workplace wellness program.

    I am in a health related industry so needless to say the normal simplistic healthy living advice is preaching to the choir (who may or may not choose to listen). They did a survey and totally revamped the program. Now the topics are things like financial health, stress management, conflict management, talking to kids about health relationships, managing work/life in the postpartum period, cooking for diabetes, caregiver support, etc.. Kudos my work!

  134. IrishEm*

    Small quandary.

    So, on Monday I made a minor slip up with letting in a booking that was late by 10mins. My training has been that if a person is 10mins or less late for their appt then we let them come in. However, the person who was scheduled to see the late arrival made a big stink and actually slammed her office door in my face she was so huffed. The late arrival was made very aware by the whole door-slamming fiasco that the 10mins delay was A Problem to this person. (The fact that the customer had been left waiting for a *further* 10mins while Person had a Chat with her colleague didn’t really come up, somehow…)

    This person is also my trainer. I don’t like having doors slammed in my face. I know she made a show of herself, not me, but I was really, really bothered by having a door literally slammed in my face. You know, because I’m an adult human being. I grew out of door slamming during puberty.

    I had some training during the week with her but the “You slammed your door in my face” thing didn’t come up in conversation. I’ll see her tomorrow, and I don’t know if I’m going to raise it with her or not, but I’d like to.

    If it’s relevant it’s a semi-retail industry that requires appointments, and there were other appointments to take place after the latecomer was finished. Maybe I should have checked if the 10mins was acceptable, but the fact that she was chatting with her colleague for 10 more mins meant that the appointment was a total of 20mins late. That was not all on me. The door did not need to be slammed in my face. Right? Or is this just something that needs to be let go? The fact that she’s my trainer is making me hesitate to call her out.

    1. Four lights*

      Regardless or whether you handled the situation properly, she should not have slammed the door in your face.
      You could always bring it up again like, “Hey can we talk about the other day? How would you like me to handle this situation if someone comes close to the 10 min late mark, or if you’re on the phone?” You could segue into the door slamming. Hopefully, she’ll apologize.

    2. CM*

      The door-slamming was not appropriate, but personally I would not be as bothered by it as you are. So maybe the trainer doesn’t see it as a big deal that she needs to apologize for — she may have already forgotten about it. I can’t tell from your post whether this is uncharacteristic for this trainer — was it a one-time tantrum over something else, or is she kind of a jerk?

      It sounds like you are uncomfortable bringing this up. I think your choices are to either let it go, or have a conversation about this. Four lights’ approach is good, or I would say, “Last week, your trainee came 10 minutes late. My training is to let people in if they’re 10 minutes or less late, so I let her in. Do you think I shouldn’t have let her in?” and then when that’s resolved, say, “It also really bothered me when you slammed the door in my face. I hope that’s not going to happen again.”

      If you do decide to let it go this time, see if it’s a pattern. If it is, you should really have the conversation.

    3. valentine*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong, especially since she kept the person waiting and seeing the person probably helps the business. You can tell her the slammed door makes you look bad to customers and ask how common it is. Separately, so that she doesn’t turn this into a draw by saying you were wrong, too, though she may still do that, you can ask about the 10 minutes, if it’s a standard you know of elsewhere, versus at this particular workplace. In future, can you not interrupt her chat and say the customer is there?

  135. Blue Anne*

    Annoyed by something that just happened at work. Relevant: I do answer the phones along with a few other people, but I am not a receptionist. My title is finance manager or controller depending on who you ask.

    Someone calls asking for the mostly-retired owner of the company. I tell them he’s retired, and ask what it’s about. Turns out he’s the guy who built the prototype for our most expensive system. He gives me his name, then spells his last name too fast for me to catch but it starts with G, gives me his personal cell and work cell number. Asks to speak to the current president about a lead for the system, and also just let the owner know he called. Sure, no problem. I send the guy’s first name, both numbers, and that he called to the owner on slack. Figure he’ll remember this person, and if he doesn’t want to talk to him, doesn’t have to.

    Owner says thanks, what was he calling about, and can I remind him of the guy’s last name? I explain that he just asked me to let owner know he called, and that I could quite catch his last name but it started with G.

    Owner apparently googles the business number the guy gave me and messages me that it’s for a Mexican restaurant. Okay… that’s the number he gave me, though… what do you want me to do? Maybe he works there now. (I don’t say any of this.)

    Owner then sends the president a message complaining about me and that I need to always get name, number, and purpose of call for him.

    You know what, I did. I got the first name and last initial, I got two numbers, I asked if there was a message and was told to just him know he’d called. This guy apparently built the first version of our premier product, the president remembers him, you’d think the owner would too. He has a lot of folks he’s done business with in years past calling for social reasons, it would be totally reasonable for this to be one of those. And I am not a secretary.

    President says not to speak to owner in future, send everything through him.

    This is annoying me more than is reasonable.

    1. Anon From Here*

      Sounds like the president has your back, though, so you don’t have to deal with cranky Owner.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yeah. I think the president has my back. It’s just… grrrr!

        It’s just making me think… when I took this job, my condition was that I was allowed to have pink hair. Not long after I started I was sent out to a client site and it went great. Not long after that, there was a note in our online suggestion box that was clearly from an internal person, saying they didn’t think we should send people with pink hair to clients. Now I’m wondering if it was from the owner. It would fit in with the “complain to president, not to me” MO. (President totally had my back on that one, though.)

        It might just be really getting to me because the owner is a graduate of the business school I’ll be applying to next year. I was hoping to ask him for a letter of recommendation, because he has said good things about my work. But if this is his attitude maybe it would be better not to ask.

        1. Anon From Here*

          There’s nothing like an owner who tends to try to micromanage the business, despite having management in place.

        2. Close Bracket*

          > when I took this job, my condition was that I was allowed to have pink hair.

          Wow, how did you negotiate that? Teach me your ways.

          1. Blue Anne*

            Ha, it was pretty easy. This is a small manufacturing company and I was coming out of public accounting. So when I got the email saying they wanted to make me an offer, I called and said “This is going to seem silly, but as you know I’m coming out of public accounting partly because I’m sick of being in such a starched and pressed atmosphere. If I take a job at Widgets Inc I want to be able to dye my hair pink and throw out my business suits. Is that okay?”

            They were totally into it. Some of my colleagues are heavily tattooed. I’ve been thinking about getting an industrial piercing.

    2. Holly*

      It seems like this is a matter of “people who think they are really important being touchy” and I think it might be for the best that this person get to the owner directly

    3. valentine*

      I’m always happy to work the chain of command/be insulated. I pass it on, dust my hands, and move on with my life.

  136. ArtK*

    I finished a master’s in engineering management last Spring, but there are still some gaps that I’d like to fill. We had a good financial management class but the one thing missing was budgeting. I stink at it in my personal life and it’s going to be even worse if/when I do it as a manager. Does anyone have any recommendations of a good book or course that would address budgeting for managers?

    1. Celeste*

      Try getting the hang of it in your personal life first. May I suggest You Need A Budget? Google it to get the app and to see a YouTube clip about it. I feel like this can only help you work, because you’ll be living it already.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Outside of the personal finance budgeting question, are you looking for resources on project budgeting or departmental budgeting? From an engineering side, PMI and AACE both have resources for project budget type stuff.

      1. ArtK*

        Departmental first, I think. At some point I’ll need to be able to address both, but I have a better handle on project stuff using EVM.

  137. Sarah*

    Our internal recruiter spent yesterday afternoon arguing with me that I can’t hold what someone said in an interview against them since an interview is a high pressure situation. When I pointed out that even if I ignored the problematic thing, the interviewee would never pass the second round interview with that attitude, recruiter responded, “Well I’ll just coach her not to say that in the interview!” Doesn’t solve the problem that she thinks that!

    1. Celeste*

      You can and you should! If you’re the one making the hiring decision, it has to be yours. I wonder why the recruiter is so hung up on this person getting the job?

  138. Just Me*

    This is just a random vent.

    I have several team members that just frustrate me. My company was bought and those who didn’t get offers, or didn’t accept and offer, from the other company are leaving anywhere from now until March. My department is here until February and then we’ll be moving on to wherever we find a job; only one person is going to the other company. We get some severance, which is nice, but it’s not a huge amount and none of us can afford to go without a job beyond the severance period. The state’s unemployment office came in to do presentations this week to talk about unemployment benefits, training and other services we’re entitled to as “dislocated workers.” Do you think any of them, the ones that may need it most, signed up? Nope. Only two of us signed up–me and my senior person. I’m so glad I went because they gave us a ton of great information.

    The other thing that frustrates me is that the one who’s taking a job at the other company is still casually looking to see if there’s anything better out there. I referred her to a company via another coworker of mine who’s in contact with that company. I didn’t know if it was a management position or not, so I told her to make sure she asks when she’s on the phone with them (I know she wouldn’t want management and she’s not cut out for it). Did she ask? Nope. Went to the interview. When she got back I asked her about it. She told me all the details. Based on that I asked her a lot of questions, because the gears were grinding in my mind based on what she told me. Basically, she didn’t ask about anything beyond job duties. Meaning, she didn’t probe any deeper. Being it’s a tiny company and she’d be wearing three hats (something she’s done before) vs. the one she wears now, I thought she would have asked or at last thought about a few of the questions I asked her. But…she didn’t. She came back not knowing all that much more about the job than before she went. And then my senior person advised her about sending a thank you email, reiterating her interest and getting it out in the next day or so. Apparently she didn’t think about that either and seemed not to know that she should send one. (Which baffles me because this isn’t her first job, and she’s had a few jobs in the last 10 years.)

    I guess I feel like these team members just don’t feel any urgency, or drive to take initiative and help themselves. I know, you can lead a horse to water but can’t make it drink…

    1. Just Me*

      Oh, and they also didn’t sign up for the sessions HR offered that had resources for job searches, resume tips, cover letter examples and all that.

  139. Amber T*

    How do you say “I’m confused as to why you’re confused,” or “I don’t understand the where you’re coming from?” without sounding like a prick?

    I’m in charge of housing and updating a lot of data, and I’ll have to send this out to a bunch of C levels (way way above me) a couple of times a year for them to review. Sometimes it’s just a formality (“can you confirm nothing has changed”), sometimes they might have particular knowledge that I wouldn’t know and that’s the time to tell me. Sometimes they’ll be major changes, and I appreciate a second set of eyes.

    This is the first time I’m sending this excel to C-level person C… and he’s a bit confused. For the most part, these are fairly straightforward, and the information is easy to double check (this spreadsheet houses everything that happened this quarter, so all they would need to do is check a previous report where the number was pulled from and spot check). So my excel says 50, he emails me back correcting it to 70. I check the original report, and the original report says 50. Another line in my excel says 30, which he corrected to 0, and the original report says 30.

    So there’s a small possibility that… idk, he’s looking at a different original report? Or that his report says something different? And if that’s the case, that needs to be corrected too. But I know my original reports are correct, and now that I’ve triple checked that my excel is correct, how do I ask “where are you getting these numbers?” without sounding patronizing? (Again, he ranks far above me.)

    1. Close Bracket*

      “I wanted to double check a couple of numbers with you. My copy of Report A has 50 and 30 for X and Y on page 5. I noticed that you changed these to 70 and 0. Are you looking at a different report?”

      1. Close Bracket*

        If he says he wants those numbers, confirm so you have it in writing. “OK, so to confirm, you want me to enter 70 for X and 0 for Y instead of the numbers in Report A.”

    2. BRR*

      I would ask him to point to me where he’s getting his numbers since yours aren’t lining up. Unfortunately in the business world you have to sometimes play the part of the wrong one

      1. BRR*

        Or possible method. When you send it out, can you elaborate more on the source data? Like here is the summary of the March 15th teapot report. Maybe even hyperlink that date to the original data?

        1. Amber T*

          That’s what’s awkward – without getting into too much detail, this is all legal stuff that, if presented inaccurately, has a lot of ramifications (on him, on us, on lots of people). The original reports came directly from our lawyers (he was emailed a copy too). So if the original report says 50, it has to be 50. So I’m sitting here muttering to myself, “where the heck did you get 70 from?”

          I can resend him the report and point to page X. It’s just awkward!

          1. Close Bracket*

            Let it be awkward. Just stick to the facts- “Thanks for your updates. Report A from our legal department has 50 and 30 for X and Y on page 5. I’ve changed those back to match Report A and attached the new version.” It’s ok to correct higher ups when they are factually wrong and you have a source for why, regardless of how they react to it.

            Do you need approval for whatever you do next? If not, move on to the next step.

    3. Alex*

      I would use this wording:

      “I want to make sure that we are both on the same page regarding data points A and B. I was getting 30 and 50 from the Purple report, lines x and y. Can you tell me where you are seeing 70 and 0, specifically?”

  140. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Now that I’m finally in a job and a location I love, it’s time to be stressed about my husband’s job. We’ve been in our new location for almost two months, and while I totally recognize that we are in a really privileged position in that my salary covers our daily living expenses, it’s not enough to provide any cushion or any sort of savings. We desperately want to buy a house soon, and we’re adopting a puppy next month which will certainly increase our expenses, so my salary alone won’t cut it much longer. He’s had a few interviews and is one of two final candidates for an amazing job he’d love, but I’m frustrated that he’s put all his eggs in this basket – he hasn’t applied for anything new in weeks, so if he doesn’t get this job, we’re completely without a backup plan. I’m the kind of person who likes to have a Plan A, B, C, and D, but I know I can’t run his job search for him.

    We’d previously agreed that due to my increased salary, he’d have the time to be picky about what jobs to apply for, but I think it’s getting to the point where we need to re-evaluate our options. I’d be happy if he evens works part time as a beer tender (craft beer is his passion and most of his work experiences has been in bars), but I don’t want him to feel like I don’t believe he can get this job or any other non-bar job, or to resent me for pressuring him to take some full-time job he hates.

    Has anyone else dealt with this?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I should add, he should hear the final outcome of his current interview process within a week or two, so I’m torn between just waiting and hoping for the best, or trying to convince him to start at least looking for backup options now so rather than waiting and being another two weeks behind.

      1. give me something I can use*

        Can you be low-key and matter-of-fact? “Hey, can we review the finances this weekend? Puppy adoption takes $X, and [insert whatever ideas/timeline you have for househunting]. When do you want to start building up our savings again?” I would say exactly what you did here, that you’re not panicked or lack confidence in his ability to get PT or FT work, but you want to make sure the finances keep working out that he isn’t pushed into taking a job.

        If you both know he’s likely to take a while to get over it and move on to the next application if this dream job picks the other candidate, it’s reasonable to suggest that he should start getting over them first and keep applying. Having even one more iron in the fire might be enough to keep him moving, though I hear that you would like more – you might need to compromise on that.

        Good luck to you both, and yay puppy!

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      “We’d previously agreed that due to my increased salary, he’d have the time to be picky about what jobs to apply for, but I think it’s getting to the point where we need to re-evaluate our options.”

      Have you talked to your husband about changing the agreement? It sounds like there is an agreement in place for him to be picky, but you want to change that agreement. But until you talk and re-negotiate, the only agreement between the two of you is for him to be picky.

  141. Drama Llama*

    How do I deal with a coworker who sends cryptic one liners about issues she’s not happy about? In the past she’s sent me emails/texts along the lines of: “This was not wise.” “Your memo about X is different to the facts.” Worst is when she CC’s my boss. It gives me no context or explanation into why she’s concerned about my work; so I can’t understand where I went wrong (or if I am actually in the wrong) or explain myself.

    This morning at 7am I get the following text.
    Coworker: Your email to Bob about X is not accurate.
    Me: Okay, let’s talk about this in person when I see you, or call me later, so I can understand your concerns better.
    Coworker: Integrity.

    WTF.

    She’s actually someone I get along with really well; but this is one issue I really dislike about her.

    1. Anon From Here*

      “OK, I look forward to getting together in person so we can elaborate on this. See you soon.”

      -roll eyes-

    2. Amber T*

      That sounds super obnoxious. “Integrity?” That’s almost laughable.

      Is texting a normal part of communication for your work? If it isn’t borderline mandatory, I’d just shut it down and do email/phone/in person only.

      Coworker (7am text): Your email to Bob about X is not accurate.
      You (waiting until 9/whenever you get into the office, via email): Hi, I got your text this morning. Let me know when you’re free and we can talk about X.

      And for random stuff like “That wasn’t wise” (which sounds vagulely threatening, btw)? I would just ignore those completely. I mean, what even is the point of sending a text like that?

      1. Drama Llama*

        She sits a couple of desks away from me so we do 99% of our communication in person (or phone if we’re away from our desks). We only ever text/email to, say, arrange a meeting time, or to forward some relevant information. In that context it’s especially aggravating that she chooses to text/email content like this.

    3. chi type*

      Wow, I’d be tempted to respond with can I get a little hint here or what?
      But maybe just stop by her desk and say “I appreciate you giving me heads up on X and Y but it would save me so much time if you could give a little more context these alerts.” Kind of said in the tone of “can you do me a huge favor”.

    5. CM*

      I like the suggestion about not responding via email/text and keeping it in-person. Except if she does it over email and CCs your boss, I think you should respond and say, “Do you have specific concerns? I’ll stop by to discuss,” and then maybe mention to your boss what happened next. Just to cover yourself in case your boss is seeing this and believing that something is wrong that you’re not addressing.

    6. periwinkle*

      Maybe be grateful that she’s not starting each text with “Issues That Are Bothering Me”?

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Oh dear… that is bad. I’m not sure I wouldn’t have been able to stop myself from replying to the cryptic “Integrity” response with

      “Jane, Since it looks like you sent the last response accidentally before you finished typing the message. I’ll stop by with coffee today for us to talk about your concern. Probably easier to do in person anyway.

      Does 10am work?
      Drama Llama”

      1. Drama Llama*

        It’s actually Saturday where I am. So I won’t get a chance to talk to her until next week. After the above text exchange I reiterated I wanted to talk to her in person so I could understand her better; and she sent me a couple more cryptic messages. I just didn’t respond.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          Oh dear… can you start sending her cryptic ones in return?

          Coworker: Your email to Bob about X is not accurate.
          Me: Okay, let’s talk about this in person when I see you, or call me later, so I can understand your concerns better.
          Coworker: Integrity.
          Me: rutabaga.
          Coworker: Dedication
          Me: Sunspots
          Coworker: Not wise
          Me: Stuffing bees up your nose
          Coworker: WTF
          Me: Sorry…thought we were doing a word association exercise. What were we doing throwing out cryptic words without context, maybe we do need to talk about this in person?

          Ok, don’t do that, maybe do that if anyone involved has a sense of humor…

          1. Amber T*

            I would laugh! But I also wouldn’t send weird cryptic dumb text messages like that, so I might not be the target audience (you had me a rutabaga).

          2. Jerry Vandesic*

            I was thinking of something similar, but I went to an episode of “News Radio” where Phil Hartman’s character is pitching a new beverage on the air using a bunch of made up words. The response to “Integrity” that I would go with is “Gazizza Dilssnufus.” Krizappy!

    8. Marthooh*

      “Water flows around all obstacles on its journey from mountain to sea.”

      (I’m pretty sure Kwai Chang Caine said that on “Kung Fu” at some point.)

    9. valentine*

      Is it even her place/business? Tell her details or you’re not the correct audience, or respond as though she’s volunteering: “I trust you’ll send Bob/us the correct info.” I’m reading “Integrity” as she thinks you know you’re wrong and is calling you out because she thinks she’s showing integrity by doing so. She doesn’t know you’re not on the same page.

  142. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    Do you have a business book you recommend, once people finish the “Books and More” section of this site? Getting Things Done, The Effective Executive? (I actually find that businesses read Fish, implement it for about nine days, then throw it the heck on out.) What else? How about books that aren’t directly related to business, e.g. I’ve found Howl’s Moving Castle, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and a surprisingly high percentage of Meg Cabot, Elizabeth Moon, and Robin McKinley’s works to be helpful in informing my work attitude.

    1. CatCat*

      I really liked “Death by Meeting.” I found it kind of cheesy when I was reading it (it’s written as a sort of parable tale), but I actually thought about it a lot afterwards and still think about it, especially when there is something I want to get out of a meeting that might otherwise tend to meander. I am not in a position where I would set up the types of meetings that the book structures in the end, but it has helped steer (even if I am not in charge of) meetings I participate in and need something from.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I am working on incorporating the mindset of Marie Kondo into my work life (she talks about home organization, her main takeaway is to get rid of more stuff). “The Life-changing Magic of Tidying Up.”

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      The Goal written by Eli Goldratt .

      It’s a great introduction to the Theory of Constraints. I’ve found some wide applications of it over the years. I also made my team read it, but I got them the graphic novel version.

      I loved your comment about Fish, I think we made it about 6 months. We used it from a managers perspective on a team I was on, never got it out to the team as a whole. I always kind of wanted to see the reaction if we had. We had 3 separate teams and 2 of the 3 were pretty healthy but the last one was the grumpy team in the book that nobody wanted to work with. I was always curious which team would recognize themselves as the bad one in the book. All in all I don’t think Fish was terrible but I’m not sure the teams that really need it would implement or even catch on that they do.

  143. Cruciatus*

    There’s an application a scholarship to a conference in my field (well, I’m support staff in this field, but close enough) and the application wants me to tell them, in 300 words or less, what unique qualities I would bring to the conference community. I’m not trying to beg for compliments here but…I’m not that unique! I mean, I do good work, I’m productive, I want to learn–none of these are unique to probably anyone else applying for this scholarship!

    Is there another way I should approach this question?

    1. Psyche*

      Do many support staff apply for this scholarship? Maybe you could talk about how that gives you a different perspective. You could also talk about past projects you have worked on that are related to the field.

    2. Reba*

      This is just a prompt for “tell us about yourself and why you are great.” Don’t get too hung up on the “unique” qualifier. Good luck, I hope you get it!

  144. chi type*

    I think I know the answer to this since Allison has addressed it a few times but I’ll throw it out there for any input.
    I supervise a great employee who was out (hospitalized?) for a few weeks awhile back with mental health issues. It was all very hush-hush but he did more or less tell me that was the issue once he was back at work.
    Well this week I can pretty obviously see him sliding into a deep depression. A few of us have noticed. It’s very obvious.
    I think I know there’s not really anything we can do but it just feels wrong to stand around watching a man drowning. Thoughts?

    1. BRR*

      I think saying something like “I’m getting the sense something might be off right now. If that’s the case let me know if there’s anything I can do to help.” I heard someone once suggest “we have an EAP that’s available.”

    2. Jean (just Jean)*

      It’s good of you to care. I don’t recall all the past AAM discussions so I don’t know if my comment will agree or disagree with what’s been said here before.

      Can one of you (probably you as his supervisor, to whom he disclosed previously) express your concern to him privately? Sounds to me like you want to say “I care about you and don’t want you to have a repeat of your previous experience. How can I help? Can you call a mental health care provider? Do you want me to set up the phone call to your past/current provider? Do you want me to give you a ride/pay for transport (public, Uber/Lyft, etc)?”

      Does your company have any policies or files of whom to contact if an employee shows signs of trouble without being in full-on crisis? Does this person seem interested in harming himself?

      I’m not a mental health professional–just someone who has seen too many people suffer from their own or others’ mental health struggles. I send you moral support but I don’t think that’s enough.

    3. Alex*

      Can you check in with him and just ask him how he’s doing, and maybe give a couple of concrete examples of what you’ve noticed? You don’t have to use the words “depression” or “It is obvious you’re drowning,” but you can say something like, “I’m a little bit concerned about you. I noticed you’ve [seemed very tired, snapped at a coworker, whatever specifc thing] and that isn’t usual for you, so I wanted to check in and make sure everything is OK with you, and to make sure you know about [workplace policies you may have in place that support people dealing with this].”

      I don’t think I’d mention the previous hospitalization, just because you don’t want to make it seem like you are viewing him in a different way after he had that experience.

    4. chi type*

      Thanks, guys. I think I will just ask him if everything is alright and if I can do anything to help.
      I was probably getting too wrapped up in the medical privacy aspect since no one knew why he was out last time and there was a lot of drama flying around about who was allowed to know the reason (I’m his direct supervisor but not really “management”). But since he more or less told me himself I think (hope) it’s not a big issue. At work, it’s hard to know how far to respect someone’s privacy and when ignoring someone’s obvious distress would do more harm than good.

  145. socrescentfresh*

    How risky is it to post your resume on recruiting websites when you already have a job but don’t want your employer to know you’re looking? I’d like to put feelers out, especially for remote/telecommuting jobs, but I’m afraid of my employer monitoring popular recruiting sites for the name of our company to catch stealth jobseekers. Is that a thing, or am I being paranoid?

    3. buu*

      This is one thing I think Linkedin is good for, ideally you’d have set it up waaay in the past but you can get headhunted and speak to recruiters without it being too obvious.

  146. give me something I can use*

    I could write a book about how I feel, having been solicited to build a web UI, for a friend-of-a-friend’s hardware startup, as a remote contractor (note: I’ve never been paid to write software and have literally no idea why they are excited to “get me on board” except that my friend is taking pity on me)…

    Instead I will say: if you’re going to use the phrase “drink the Kool-Aid” in an interview, it’s fine to skip explaining the reference, in case your interviewee didn’t know. (I did know! But thanks for being clear, I guess, about what you hope? expect? your employees’ mindset to be.)

      1. give me something I can use*

        He was describing factors that have encouraged him to join startups in the past, in case I didn’t have enough of my own reasons for deciding to join his startup. He’s not wrong that it helps to believe strongly in the product and the company’s positioning! And if he hadn’t stopped to explain, I would’ve drawn a veil over it. But he did check in to make sure he hadn’t lost me (same with Moore’s Law and Turing completeness, which uh.) and here we are.

    2. Temperance*

      I hope you corrected the person and informed them that it was Flavor Aid used at Jonestown, and not Kool-Aid. ;)

      2. valentine*

        Yes, thank you! It was Flavor Aid! Everyone needs to stop maligning my friend the Kool-Aid Man.

      3. give me something I can use*

        I’ve decided to get rejected from this job for something other than poorly timed pedantry! Like, say, my anxiety-induced inability to put together a timeline and cost estimate.

  147. Speechless*

    I got a new job!! It doesn’t start until Nov 12 for background check reasons and because of the long wait I have to wait to put in my 2 week notice and I can’t tell anyone at work. That part is awful (I love my team, I’ll miss them a lot) but I’m so excited to start something new!

  148. Overeducated*

    My husband finally got a full time job after a year of being part time! Yay! But since academia is the WORST, this job is 1.5-2 hours away depending on traffic, and is not permanent, so he’s busily applying to other jobs for next year before his start date. Sigh.

    We both thought by now we’d be in good jobs and settled down in one place for the long run. When did you feel like you’d finally “gotten there”? Where was “there”?

    1. Aurora Leigh*

      Well, I think it changes throughout life. We hit one goalpost and then we start looking ahead to the next one.

      For me:
      Starting college (18)
      Graduating college (22)
      Getting my first apt (24)
      Getting a full time job (25)
      Moving in with my boyfriend (27)

      Now I’m looking ahead to goals like marriage and kids and a bigger house.

      After that they’ll be other goals (retirement for example).

    2. Crylo Ren*

      I feel very fortunate to have I’ve gotten to where I want to be for a while, in both my career and personal life.

      Career: I’m in a managerial role at a well-known but small company where I feel supported by my colleagues and challenged by the work I do, and the work I do feels meaningful.
      Personal life: married, no kids yet (soonish). In a place where my husband and I can live comfortably.

      I’m sure we’ll want to move on to the next goalpost, as Aurora Leigh says, soon – but right now I feel pretty good where I’m at.

  149. Cochrane*

    My grandparents doled out what you’d call “gumption” advice that is outdated and out of touch, the subject of much eye-rolling on this blog.

    They also espoused what I’ve come to see as gumptions cousin that I don’t think I’ve ever seen addressed here: “being put to the test”. This is the idea that some unseen authority figure is putting you in a “what would you do?” scenario to gauge your worth for being hired or promoted.

    There’s some extra money in your pay envelope this week, Old Man Guffy is waiting to see if you’re honest enough to return it and show yourself as Vice President material. There’s a deliberate mistake on the application, Hiring Manager wants to see if you’re sharp enough to catch it and say something.

    Has anyone ever been put in a position like this in the workplace or is this as outdated and unusual as the old-fashioned gumption adivice that my now-departed Great Depression grandparents used to dispense?

    1. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      No. This is outdated and weird advice. No functional company would do something like that, in my opinion.

    2. ArtK*

      For “cousin of gumption” I might be tempted to respond: “Why does it matter? After all, ‘Character is what you do when nobody is looking.’ I wouldn’t do anything different if it was a test or not.”

      Of course, if I found out that I was being tested, even if I passed, I’d be looking to get out. That’s a dysfunctional place. Just like relationship tests are signs of a bad relationship.

    3. dawbs*

      I had a boss (man, there was so much wrong with this boss and workplace. Wowza) who did asinine tests. Like “here is 45 min worth of work and 25 min to do it. GO!”, then come back after 25 min to showyou how it could have been done in 35 to 40… bbecause you were then supposed to admire the efficiency tricks he was teaching.
      (Apparently by looking at it, shrugging, and going at a reasonable pace without flipping out, I messed up the model and he considered firing me- or at least thought I was probably the wrong fit. )

    4. chi type*

      I think those ideas are still around a bit. There are “was this a test?” questions here somewhat frequently. (I believe Alison almost always says no and even if it was you don’t want to work for game players.)

      1. chi type*

        I should add, the ones I can think of are usually about interviewing rather than like your example…

    5. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Well, I’ve certainly seen the “oopsie, we were calculating your hours wrong for the past year and we’re taking it out of your next paycheck as a lump sum,” and I do tend to be a bit more careful about piping up abuot that sort of thing as a result.

  150. That Would be a Good Band Name*

    Just shouting some excitement here because I can: I applied for a job a few weeks ago and had not heard back. I just got an email from the company asking me to interview for a position a level above what I applied for!! It’s just an initial phone screen, but I have never had someone approach me for a higher level position than what I was going after. I honestly felt like the first position might have been a little bit of a stretch because it’s a different field so I am extra excited!

  151. Peaches*

    Are misspellings in out of office messages worth mentioning?

    I have a coworker (our customer service rep) who always has misspellings when he has an OOO message up. The majority of our customers email their orders to him, so I imagine a high volume of customers are seeing his OOO message when he is on vacation. His message reads like this:

    “I will be out of the office Thursday through Monday 10/4-10/8. Please make sure to foreward any time sensative requests to XYZ@CompanyName.com if you need a response before my return on 10/9.”

    For reference, I am in a “higher” position than this coworker, but am not his direct supervisor. He is a young male, and I am a young female.

    1. PJM*

      I’d just send him a casual heads up that there were a couple of typos that you thought he would want to be aware of.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      Is he usually a bad speller in general? If he isn’t then bringing it up is just a quick, “Hey, did you notice that your OOO message has these misspellings? They’ve been there for the last X times you’ve been out.” I know Outlook “remembers” your last OOO message and all you have to do is change dates and turn it back on, so chances are he typed the original message in a hurry and didn’t check.

      If he’s usually a bad speller, then you can be a little more detailed, “Hey, I’ve noticed that the OOO message that the clients are getting when you aren’t in has a couple of misspellings: forward and sensitive. I just wanted to flag that for you, since you probably typed the message on your way to your time off.” Because he probably doesn’t know what the words he misspelled are… but you’re giving him an “out” to save a little face.

    3. LGC*

      I’d…let it go, and this isn’t because you’re a woman and he’s a man.

      A lot of my coworkers (including the senior project manager) are not native born Americans and although they’re fluent in English, it’s not their primary language. So often, they’ll write things and OOO messages that are…a bit awkward. I can still read them, but the grammar isn’t polished. I’ve just learned to not get too bothered by their mistakes – it’s clear what they mean, and I think the person to address it if there IS an issue is (in my case) upper management. If you did want to address it, be really casual about it, and probably mention it in passing – otherwise, defer to his supervisor. (If she’s not concerned, then you shouldn’t be.)

      Finally, he may have separate internal and external OOO messages! I know I do.

  152. Worksy*

    I interviewed for a job about six weeks ago and didn’t get it. I’ve been checking the website since to see who was hired instead. No one is posted yet, and it looks like they may have reorganized the department instead of hiring someone new. One of my interviewers, who I really clicked with, was just promoted. Do I send a congratulations email, or does that make me look like a stalker?

    1. Peaches*

      If you haven’t followed up about the status of the job you interviewed for, I think it’d be fine to do that once, but I’d avoid emailing your interviewer congratulations.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      To me that seems weird, assuming the interview is the only interaction you’ve ever had with her. Better might be to connect with her on LinkedIn.

  153. Clueless*

    Recruiter etiquette question here – a recruiting agency contacted me about a role at a really good firm that the recruiter told me was opening a new office near me, but she and I both agreed that the role was too senior.

    The company accepts applications directly, and I’m pretty sure that my skills could fit in with what they want, so how should I send in a speculative CV? Do I send it in, mention her name in the email and copy her in, do I just make my case to her and ask her to send it for me, or do I just send it in, no mention of her?

    I’m sure that the last one would be wrong, but my entire communication with her was two emails and a 15 minute phone call. What’s the appropriate way to handle it?

    1. CM*

      I’d go through the recruiter and tell her you’d still like to apply, rather than contacting the company directly.

    2. ArtK*

      If she has a contract with the company, this could cause some real problems. She “owns” you with respect to that company since you talked to her first.

      I don’t really understand something. You and she decided that the position wa too senior, but you still want to apply? Or did *she* tell you that it was too senior for you? In either case, I’d go back to her and tell her to submit your application.

      1. Clueless*

        No – I told her it was too senior, she asked to speak on the phone and then agreed I didn’t have the experience in that sort of role, so contact ended there. Think mid-level IT role, and I’ve only got some helpdesk experience from five years ago, and I’m now in Marketing. She did tell me that the firm is doing a large expansion with a new office, which for the firm type I’d say would be between 200-300 new jobs.

        I want to see if they’ve got other roles in my preferred area of expertise, not that job, but because she’s purely a mid-level and up IT recruiter and I’m not on her books (no contract, and she hasn’t even seen a copy of my CV) I’m fairly sure she wouldn’t actually know them all, or be putting candidates forward for them.

  154. WorriedOverNothing?*

    Hello all- first time question asker here!

    I am in the middle of negotiations for a new position this week. I was told when I received the verbal offer on Tuesday that I would need to give a verbal yes by the end of the week to initiate a background check. I countered with a request for a slight increase in base salary Wednesday and was told by HR yesterday morning that they couldn’t make the change but would check with management and ‘circle back’. I have not recieved any other information. My father believes that if I hear nothing by 4:30 today I should just accept the offer to be in time with the original ‘verbal yes’ request (and also give myself piece of mind for over the weekend) but I think I should wait until I get a yes/no on the salary increase…

    Thoughts?

    1. Armand hammar*

      I would relax.

      If you’re asking for something outside of the norm, there’s often other channels they need to be funneled through. They’re already interested. The worse they’ll say is they can’t do it :)

    2. CM*

      Definitely wait until you hear back. The company already said they would get back to you — you’d just be undercutting your own request if you accepted the original offer. If they say no, then you can accept without worrying that you should have held out for more.

  155. VeryAnon, Yes*

    So today a recruiter actually seemed Really Annoyed that I turned down an interview with a company that was located in pretty much the middle of rural nowhere. A job that would have involved lone working. At night. No guard dogs, no security, just me in an office.

    Me, a five foot nothing, weighs-eight-stone-soaking-wet woman working alone on an isolated property late at night?

    Nope.

    The impression I got was that my personal safety and my feelings of safety weren’t actually as important as getting me placed in a job. Yes I’m looking, but I’m not going to take the first thing that is thrown at me, and certainly not a job that would put me somewhere where if anything happened to me, I wouldn’t be reached that quickly or easily. This job was in the Yorkshire Dales (if anyone knows the area, we are relocating soon to a town there) and yeah I know it’s remote in places but hey, there’s towns and cities about, let’s not send small women on job interviews on former farms that are the middle of stick-nowhere.

    I don’t want to come across as whiny but really? Maybe send someone who doesn’t struggle to open a pickle jar to a location like that and send the small woman with no defence skills somewhere more populated. Am I being unreasonable?

    1. LCL*

      Your feelings are your own and you don’t have to explain your reasoning to anybody. But I can’t picture an employer in the Western world refusing to refer women to remote jobs. And, we wouldn’t want them to make employment decisions based on gender.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Ditto. And I’m a small middle-aged woman who would, quite frankly, love a solo job in the Yorkshire Dales.

        The great thing about being alone is that there is no one else there.

        1. Not All*

          Me too! And night shift?! SIGN ME UP!!!!! I’ve been a night owl my entire life and it is nearly impossible to find jobs that don’t want me there basically when I’m finally starting to have quality REM sleep.

          Sorry VeryAnon…the recruiter is lame for being annoyed with you for declining an interview, but not at all for suggesting it. You’re being annoyed with them would be like me getting annoyed with a recruiter for offering me an interview with a company in downtown Big City with a 7:30am start time.

      2. AshK434*

        Seriously. I respect and understand her reasoning for not wanting this job but I hate generalizations that all small woman are pathetic and can’t protect themselves.

        1. KayEss*

          I got the impression that VeryAnon was annoyed because the recruiter got shirty with her when she turned down the interview, not because he made the offer to her in the first place. Recruiters can get very “but why won’t you give it a chaaaaaaaance???” when they get even a whiff that they might be able get you into an undesirable position they’re having trouble filling, as if it’s somehow unreasonable to know sight unseen that you don’t want a job because of the basic requirements/logistics/duties. If he pushed back against the idea that she personally wouldn’t feel safe given what she knew about the job, that’s a sexist dick move on his part… and also an obnoxiously typical one.

          1. nonegiven*

            Don’t recruiters get snippy if you turn down an interview for a 3 month contract when you’re happy at a job with benefits that pays more?

    2. CM*

      Good recruiters don’t get annoyed when you have a valid reason to turn down a job.
      That said, it wasn’t unreasonable for the recruiter to propose the job in the first place — they don’t know you’re a small woman with no defence skills. Maybe you’re a krav maga expert.

    3. KayEss*

      He probably wasn’t thinking about it that way, and like LCL says, it’s ultimately for the best that he wasn’t… most likely he’s having trouble filling that position because of its location and frustrated about it. It’s unprofessional for him to let that leak out into his interactions with you, though, so I think it’s totally reasonable to be annoyed about that. If he keeps being a huffy jerk at you it would be worth considering working with a different recruiter.

    4. Drama Llama*

      Well, your personal safety and your feelings of safety probably aren’t important to the recruiter as getting you placed in that job, thus earning a recruitment fee.

      You don’t need a “good enough” reason to justify why you don’t want a certain job. If the recruiter isn’t happy about it, that sounds like a personal problem.

    5. Lissa*

      Your post seems to be imply that your size as well as gender should factor into the recruiter’s reasoning, and that if you’d been 6’2 it would be OK for the recruiter to send you out – but I really just can’t see a recruiter thinking about whether or not you can open a jar when considering who to send for jobs like this. Of course you’re reasonable in rejecting it if you don’t feel safe, but I’d think most dangers that are in the middle of nowhere like that are probably going to be dangerous for most people.

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I would tend to disagree with your comment on two levels.

      1) I don’t think recruiters should offer jobs based on the demographic aspects of who they are offering them too. That’s a slippery slope that leads to all kind of discrimination and the “little ladies only need secretary jobs before they land a job” culture of the past (hopefully past!).

      2) You have a right to reject a job for any reason but are you sure your feelings about the safety are accurate? Like how people are scared to be alone in the woods at night but honestly you’d see or hear anyone coming for miles, unlike in a crowded or noisy area. A rural place alone at night is likely to be the safest gig if you are worried about other humans posing a danger. None of that will help your feelings of safety which are of course important. The rural and night aspect would be enough for me to reject it because of loneliness… but not danger. Is robbing office buildings in remote areas a thing where you are? If so, I take what I said back.

      1. Lissa*

        Yup, most dangerous jobs when it comes to things like criminal activities are places like 24-hour convenience stores and gas stations.

  156. Armand hammar*

    I work for a medical company. I manage a group of clinicians as well as front office assistants. My company has been pushing for us a whole to push down attrition.

    I feel that my employees are engaged and at least don’t dread coming into work. (Occasionally out patients can be trying, but by all accounts it’s an easy job for a clinician.)

    What else can I do to help keep attrition down, short of saying yes to every employee demand to keep them happy and content?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I’d like to know what your attrition rate is. Is it high for your industry? Why are people leaving when they do leave? Answering those questions might help.

      1. Armand hammar*

        I think it’s high organization wide, but mine sits between 12-15 percent. Location and opportunity seem to be the big drivers.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          Well, you can’t do anything about location but perhaps if you don’t have any opportunities for upward growth, you could start building a career ladder within your department.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Appreciate them directly and recognize them for specific contributions and create a culture where people call each other out with gratitude in team meetings. Work on problem solving together and follow up on the plans you make to solve those problems. People stay where they feel valued.

  157. Alison B.*

    What do you recommend I tell people was the reason I was let go?

    The reasons I believe it happened were:

    -EVERYONE is let go from this position. Nobody lasts in it more than 6 months. My collages WARNED me on my first couple weeks to be careful. The managers don’t communicate what they want, and they don’t give feedback, so you can never be up to par… because they haven’t told you what they want, or even defined it for themselves.

    -I had one hour of work a day. I believe my position existed ONLY to make the executive feel important for having me there — because other companies have someone in my position, so their company should have one too, right? Well, I did one hour of work. I tried to be proactive, but it didn’t go over well. The advice one of the Sr. VPs (who wasn’t my supervisor) was: stay out of the way, keep your head down, and only do what you’re told and nothing else.

    -Part of the “making this person feel important” was letting him complain. He would tell me his phone wasn’t synching, so I’d ask if he wanted me to fix it, and he said “No, it’s probably not possible,” and wouldn’t let me try. SO he didn’t want me to fix it. Also being like, “Oh, that sucks, sorry that happened,” wasn’t suitable either. If I didn’t make a BIG SHOW out of “OH MY GOD YOUR LIFE SUCKS SO MUCH YOU HAVE THE WORST LIFE IN THE WORLD,” he’d go complain to someone else until he got the response he was looking for. And making a big show out of something that is solvable wasn’t something I was comfortable with.

    The reasons they gave me for being let go were:
    -Making errors, but I always double and triple-checked my work. I was told when I was let go that it wasn’t that I had written it wrong, but someone else had written it wrong, and I wrote down what they said instead of “what they meant”. And “I should know that if I knew him!” Except, what he said actually made sense so, it’s not like I just copied down some blatant typo! And on top of that, I never got feedback from it when it happened because he didn’t EVER give feedback. I didn’t even know about it until the day I was being fired!

    -Answering the phone with “Hello.” I NEVER EVER did this. I assumed someone just made this up, until it occurred to me that maybe they meant that after the 3rd time of my phone greeting, if no one was on the other line, I would say, “Hello? Is anyone there?”

    -Not being “proactive.” The example they gave was that tupperware out on the counter for people to take home, because the cleaning person had hidden it. I gave everyone a deadline to take it home. But my boss would’ve rather I thrown it away, because throwing it away would’ve been the PROACTIVE approach. But my putting out the tupperware in the first place WAS BEING PROACTIVE. He never told me he wanted me to throw it away!

    In summary… I was never given feedback. Managers were passive aggressive. And everyone gets let go from this job after 6 months. What angle do you recommend I take in a cover letter/interview?

    Thanks!

    1. KayEss*

      If the job was less than six months, could you leave it off your resume and just not address it at all?

        1. KayEss*

          But the people interviewing you/reading your cover letters presumably won’t know that? I recall that Alison has said a lot in other posts that you can leave a bad job off your resume if you were only there less than six months, and it sounds like the duties involved in this one wouldn’t particularly strengthen your resume anyway.

          If you get asked directly about it, obviously you don’t want to lie, but I don’t think you have to be proactive in sharing the details in your cover letter. If someone DOES ask, such as in a “have you ever been fired from a job” context, maybe something like “It was a job that turned out to be a bad fit for me, in that I was working for very demanding people with little to no guidance. I’ve found that I benefit from and prefer clear constructive feedback, especially early on in a role.” I know Alison has covered how to spin a firing during interviews in posts before, and it’s mostly about making it sound like you learned something from the experience.

            1. KayEss*

              How did you answer that before you got this job? It makes it a bit more of a gap, but it’s easy to fill with fluff like, “I’ve been taking some time to really evaluate where I want my career to go and what I want out of my next position.” Which isn’t exactly a lie… ;) If they asked why you left the job you had before six-month nightmare job, use something like whatever reason you used to answer that question in those interviews. You could probably even get away with something like “I left for an opportunity that unfortunately wound up not working out.”

              But if you’re more comfortable keeping it on your resume than doing all that dancing around, you can definitely do that and use language like others are suggesting to address why you’re no longer there/are job searching again! I’d probably still take it off permanently in the future, once you’ve gotten a new job and whenever you’re looking to move somewhere new after that, just because a six-month job looks pretty weird.

    4. Super dee duper anon*

      This is really tough. I get why you would feel like you can’t leave it on your resume.

      I think I would play up the lack of work angle. Maybe something like “Unfortunately the role turned out to be a bit different than I had understood when accepting. It was the type of role with a lot of built in down time, which ended up being a poor fit for me”

      One thing I will say – if people are cycling through this role so frequently the company/your boss might have a reputation known to folks outside the company. This happened to me in my last job search. I’m borderline job hoppy, and I was leaving my job after only being there a year (which I knew didn’t look great, but for “reasons” I just had to get out). Went to meet with a recruiter and gave a very carefully crafted reason for looking. They sort of laughed and said something along the lines of “don’t worry, I know you work for a very not nice woman. Trust me, I’ve heard”

      Also, one last idea – if you are struggling to find a new role and you think this is holding you back maybe look into temping (if that’s possible – but it sounds like you were in admin type work so there’s usually a need for temp admins). You can build up a reputation with an agency and/or try to cultivate some strong references. A strong current reference can do wonders to overcome blips on the resume/work history. Good luck!

  158. computer says no.*

    i’ve ruined my life. doctor is giving me diazapam and forwarding me for counselling. i am too exausted to live much longer.

    1. AnonAndOn*

      Please call the National Lifeline Hotline (800-273-8255) or text Crisis Text Line (HELP to 741741). Hard as it is do not give up.

        2. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Please call one of the helplines. Please go see the counsellor your doctor gets you in touch with.

    2. Jean (just Jean)*

      Please take care of yourself, and rest, and have a tiny bit of faith that life does not have to be this terrible. Also make and keep the counseling appointment. There’s no shame in getting help! Situational distress and depression can give us false negative messages.
      If you need to talk to someone before your appointment, call or email a crisis line/hotline. Their volunteers and professionals actively want to help others through difficult times of feeling wretched. You can also write back on this thread and join the open topic weekend thread that starts tomorrow.
      People here are kind and caring. You have a positive reason to be in this world even if it is hard to perceive right now.

    4. CM*

      Please check in with us later this weekend and tell us how you’re doing. Give the meds time to work. Can you reach out to someone you know and tell them you’re feeling this way?

    5. Bea*

      The meds need time to work. Please continue with your doctors advice. Meds and therapy can help you out of this hole you feel you’ve fallen into.

    6. Thursday Next*

      Please, please call one of the helplines Anon listed. Have you scheduled your counseling appointment yet? I hope you can talk to someone soon. It helps to be face to face with someone who’s there to help you.

      And it’s a good idea to check in with your prescribing doctor to give him/her an update on how you feel the medication is working. My understanding is that diazepam is a medication that affects the body quickly, unlike some medications that need to be taken for a few weeks before you can judge their effects, so you can call your doctor soon after you start taking it to let him/her know how you feel.

      Check in on the weekend thread for more encouragement and support. Internet hugs if they’d be welcome.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Seconded on the diazepam – you should notice effects almost straight away (like within hours, depending on dosage).
        I’m popping over to the other weekend thread now – hope to see you there?

    7. CM*

      Hey, computer says no. Are you still out there? How are you doing?

      Please persevere through the exhaustion and reach out to friends, doctors, and counselors — it’s so hard but you’ll be grateful to yourself later.

  159. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Gaah. The client I am working for is a jerk who is being deliberately obtuse. Not my problem to fix but it makes the work environment more stressful.

  160. Techworker*

    I’m about to take on a project lead role at work, which is a reasonable step up in responsibility. I’ve been on the project for a while – it’s in ok-but-not-great shape, there’s quite a few gaps that need to be filled before we can release the end product. The team has already reduced in size down to 5. Within the next month or so the raw numbers of people will stay the same, but two very experienced folk (including the current lead) are being replaced with two new (one very new) people. This feels a bit like a perfect storm – I’ll need to: project manage, mentor the very new hire, handle most requests from other teams (as the joiners won’t have enough context to do that for literally months) as well as actually do some of the project work and break the rest into easy/doable chunks for the new people. Any advice for a newbie project lead?

  161. Don't Text Me, I'll Text You*

    My new co-workers explained that they do a lot of work via texting. They expect me to be available via text during their full time work hours, as I work part-time. I don’t want to be eager to please and resent the situation I find myself in, later on. I’m trying to hold them to my 20-25 a week/in the office. I’ve lived the exempt life for a long time and I don’t want to get caught up in their work that becomes my work. Plus it costs money.

    Do I simply say, “I’m at another job after this one (they know I have a contract project) and can’t be bothered after I leave the office.” ?

    1. Undine*

      “When I’m here, I give you my full attention and I do not work for other clients on your time. When I am not here, I have other commitments that also deserve my undivided attention.” (Doesn’t really matter if those commitments are sunning yourself on the beach.)

      (Optional) “If you want to pay me for scheduled time in the evenings to read and respond to texts, we might be able to work something out.”

    2. Whatsinaname*

      Just simply state that you’re only available during your working hours and provide your schedule. Just because they have expectations doesn’t mean that they’re reasonable and you have to comply with them.

      1. Don't Text Me, I'll Text You*

        I’m going to post my hours worked/hours left on my white board so they remember that I have a finite amount with them, they should use it wisely. I want to make sure they know that 20-25 hours is 20-25, not 26 or 27.

        1. valentine*

          Word your out-of-office message to specify you’re only available both in the office and during those hours. Is there such a thing as text OOO, temporary blocking, or setting particular numbers to reject or to forward (if you have an office landline).

    3. Jasmine*

      Maybe get yourself a cheap phone just for work purposes? They can text and you’ll respond during contracted hours, but you won’t have them intruding on your other work/personal life. I have a friend who works as a virtual assistant and she has 4 phones, 3 for her clients and 1 for herself!

    4. Fellow Traveler*

      Can you ask your boss to help set your co-workers’ expectations about your availability?
      Also- I worked on a project once where there was a lot of texting and I went over my text limit. I explained this to my boss and the company paid for me to upgrade to an unlimited texting plan. Sometimes people forget that texting costs money because when everyone has an iPhone, these texts usually are sent as iMessages which use data rather than text. The other thing we have done at work when not everyone is on iPhones, is switch to whatsapp, which also uses data to send text messages.

  162. periwinkle*

    BigHuge Corporation has just announced a change to our benefits packages. Some of the changes are positive, like long-overdue upgrades to parental leave (including adoption leave). I can now add pet insurance to my payroll deductions. There are some other changes which are particularly friendly to younger workers, since we’re having a tough time retaining them. (although TBH the real issue there is compensation and org culture, but that’s a whole different topic)

    However, there are changes which are not going over well. Our employee forum is generally entertaining to read because I just know what kind of responses are coming (all focused on the negative, at least at first, with lots of assumptions about the reasons for change). This one surprised me, though. A major change was to our health care contributions; what used to be more heavily subsidized (or even $0 contribution if you took the high-deductible plan, even though the company then pre-loaded your HSA to cover most of the deductible) is now at a scaled cost with three pay bands plus an executive band. The employees in the lowest pay band are charged very little or nothing, with our contribution increasing as you go up the band with execs paying the most. And the first discussion about it? It started off calling this socialism and devolved into someone wondering why we were rewarding the weaklings who earned the least, because they were obviously content to stay in lower-wage roles. (that person backpedaled pretty quickly, at least)

    It’s always interesting to see employee reactions to change when so many of them have never worked for any other company.

    Another fun week in HR… glad I don’t work in benefits.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I can see both sides of this, but yeah ultimately I think it’s kind of unfair.

      I mean, I can’t say I love the idea of people being charged differently based on their salaries.

    2. CM*

      Wow. It’s bold of your company to have progressive contributions for health care, I haven’t seen that before — and I find it pretty weird in this situation where the company is paying people, as opposed to progressive taxation where the government isn’t controlling how much money people make. Couldn’t this result in a situation where somebody with a $60K salary ends up making less than somebody with a $59K salary when you factor in healthcare costs?

      I’m not entirely surprised that people reacted strongly to this, since it’s unusual and so close to what the government does that it would trigger political reactions. The thing about how lower-earning people shouldn’t be rewarded reminded me of Mitt Romney and how he said people who are poor lack “personal responsibility” — but again, they all work for the same company, and the company is deciding how much to pay these people! So bizarre.

      1. Red Reader*

        I’ve never worked anyplace that didn’t base premium costs on salary bands. Ours are pretty wide though, <$18/hr, $18.01-24, $24.01-$60, and $60+. The middle two used to be combined, they split out the lower section to bridge the difference in premiums when people got raises that took them over $18/hr. The premiums are $x for the first group, 1.5x for the second and 2x for the third, and I think 2.5x for the fourth?

    3. Nacho*

      Sounds fair to me as long as the bands are set up equitably. If your company’s having trouble retaining younger workers, it makes sense to help them with healthcare costs. If a new worker has any kind of long term disability or disease, or if one of his family members does and he’s their primary source of insurance, he wouldn’t be able to stay at a job that only offered him high deductible health care. Once you start to earn more money though, you no longer need your healthcare as heavily subsidized

    4. Enough*

      State of PA charges a percent of your salary. Same percent for everyone but it means they person making $30/hr pays twice as much as the guy who makes $15/hr. This is in the union contracts.

  163. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

    I think the only way to do this is to say something like “Sure please include me in the texts, I’m not available most days outside of my work hours, but I’ll be sure to review my next working day”

    If you don’t want to receive the texts at all, just let them know you’re not comfortable having work data on your personal phone and to please exclude you from the texts.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      nesting fail… this was a reply to Don’t Text Me, I’ll Text You!

      1. Don't Text Me, I'll Text You*

        Thank you. Great response- “you’re not comfortable having work data on your personal phone ”

        I had a nesting fail last week, too.

        1. nonegiven*

          Give them the wrong phone number. I’m reminded of the Redditor who was recently included in multiple group texts about 7:30 am meetings from an unknown company and wondered if one of their new employees gave a wrong number so they wouldn’t get the texts on their own phone.

          Better yet, give them a Google Voice number and enable ‘do not disturb,’ when you are out of the office.

  164. The cat's meow*

    I’m starting to job hunt. I’m still in occasional contact with my supervisor from my previous job, but unfortunately, an IT snafu caused the accidental deletion of the files I spent extra hours working on to document my job before I left. The poor management of IT, connected to and directly impacting my work but not my actual department was a key reason for leaving. My other former coworkers who were previously wonderful and friendly have ghosted me, and I’m worried they think I deleted everything on purpose. My supervisor from my job before that has been a great reference in the past, but was laid off and ghosted me after that. What do I do for references going forward? I think previous and current boss would agree to be references, but not confident they would be the strongest… How can I get away from ghosting by ghosts of jobs past?

    1. buu*

      Contact old job’s HR depts, they may be able to provide references for you. They won’t be as strong as a personal one but they should be able to confirm you worked there and were in good standing.

  165. ArtK*

    Just saw a job posting for “Lead Software Architect/Jedi Master.” The posting itself was a bit over the top as well.

  166. Lab employee*

    I have a situation with a co-worker that I have a question about. We both work in a lab together and report to the same professor, but I am a graduate student and “Jane” is a research assistant. I’m above her in the chain and she helps me with my projects, but doesn’t technically report to me. Our hours are flexible and Jane has a lot of leeway for when she wants to come in/leave, but with the expectation that she starts and finishes 3 consecutive tasks each day, starts a 4th one before she leaves and I finish the 4th one after she’s gone. These tasks take me about 15 minutes to start and 15 minutes to finish, with 1.5 hours of downtime in between. It takes Jane ~20-30 minutes on either end of the task (for undetermined reasons). Overall, this works well because it allows us to get ~9 hours of work done without either of us being here for the entire 9 hours. Jane sometimes has other work she does for us during the downtime, but she also has a lot of time to work on homework for her night class.
    My question is on days when Jane says she has to leave early. 1) I’m not sure she tells/asks our boss when she needs to leave early. It happens about half of the Fridays. She’ll typically come in an hour earlier than normal and leave 2 hours early. This in itself is not a big deal to be (although I find it a little sketchy because I don’t think our boss knows). 2) My real problem is when she leaves early and doesn’t finish task 3 (or task 2 if she takes an actual half day). This is not a big problem if I know about it, but usually what happens is she’ll let me know she’s leaving and I need to finish task 3 for her, but I’ll later find out that task 3 had been ready for the last steps for 20-30 minutes before she left for the day (so enough time to finish it).
    Is this something I can address with her? How do I go about this without being petty? Am I just being petty that it added ~30 min of work to my day when she was probably just sitting around not doing anything for the last 20 min of her day?
    My boss has seemed frustrated with her other performance issues, but never really addressed them with her.

    1. sospeso*

      I think it’s fair to broach it with her! As someone with recent lab experience, including working with undergrad research assistants, I can definitely empathize with what feels like role ambiguity at times.

      I think I’d frame it a lot like you did here: “I noticed a couple of times that you left X task undone because you were leaving early. I understand that schedule changes come up. Is there a way we might plan for this going forward so that you’re still able to get it done on days you want to leave early?”

      I don’t think I’d mention noticing that she could have gotten it done, mostly because I think that’s a better conversation for the PI to have with her if it come to it.

    2. Kathenus*

      Can you not do her work for her? If she doesn’t finish task 3, don’t finish her part and then do yours. Document what you are/aren’t doing and give your boss a heads up.

      Or have a discussion with your boss, ‘hey boss, could I please get advance notice if Jane is approved to leave early since it will take me longer to finish all of the tasks those days? Several times, such as last Friday, when Jane was off at 3 instead of 5 it took me xx extra time to finish the work, which I hadn’t planned for in advance’ Or maybe something a lot less wordy than my version :)

  167. sospeso*

    Have any of you voluntarily gone down to part-time work? If so, are you happy you did? Did you regret it? Why?

    Here’s my situation: I’m considering taking a job that is part-time (25 hours a week), and it would mean leaving a full-time federal job with lots of promotion potential, and, of course, full-time pay and benefits. However! The work in my current role is essentially what I was doing before I got my master’s degree. Although it sometimes includes some fun projects that are related to what I studied in my master’s program, that’s definitely not the norm, and those aren’t considered a core part of my job. The PT gig, however, is exactly the work I want to be doing, which is fairly niche, and it sounds like there would be some opportunity for promotion and professional growth in that direction. I’m also feeling pretty burnt out from grad school, and on a more personal note, think that I would enjoy some additional free time to get back into my hobbies, spending time with my dog, and volunteering.

    So I’d love to hear from all of you about your experiences! Hope I didn’t miss all of today’s open thread :)

    1. Part Time is Fullfilling Time*

      Yes. I left my full time non-profit career to take a full-time seasonal (VITA program manager) so I could start a business. I didn’t work May – December but replaced the work with volunteering. Due to a recent move, I found myself changing jobs and took on a part-time remote position and yesterday added a part-time office position (in a position that I like in non-profit)

      It feels weird at first; society says you should be climbing the ladder not descending it. I, too, have a Masters but I sometimes look at that as ‘I earned the GI Bill and it would have been wasteful not to use it.’ but I appreciate that I have it – it’s opened doors for me.

      You might find that you want to add a contract gig to your part-time office work. You might find that a volunteer gig leads to something paid. You might find that you’re simply happier in part-time paid work and part-time unpaid work. Take this time to recalibrate: try new hobbies, refine your current ones, enjoy your pups (I have two doxies that keep me busy) and love volunteering (I volunteer at the Habitat for Humanity ReStore organizing their home building store.)

    2. CM*

      If you can afford it, do it! It sounds like you have great reasons. The one thing I’d think about is whether there is a path back into full-time employment, if that’s what you’re looking for in the longer term.

      I went down to 80% part-time from a full-time job. It would have been totally worth it if it had worked out; but as it turned out, my schedule was just as bad as it was before, I was just getting less money and people were making a big deal about how I wasn’t always there. I don’t regret trying it. (I ended up leaving that job instead.)

    3. LNLN*

      In 2012 I cut back from full time hours to 25 hours per week. It was the same job, I had set hours and I worked from home. Working part time gave me more time to exercise and otherwise take care of myself and I definitely lasted longer in that job than I would have if I had remained full time. I did not regret going part time.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Late reply: make sure you know what benefits you will lose by being part time. For example, if you lose your health insurance, this would be a big deal. Would you be able to afford coverage on your own?

    5. sospeso*

      Thanks for the feedback everyone. Lots of great information to consider – I appreciate it.

  168. VictoriaQ*

    Is there ever a way to say to you’re boss that you’re too busy to talk to them? My mom came home from work (teaching) the other day, and complained that her boss (the principal) keeps coming in during her prep period to talk to her, and its draining (he’s doing it 3-4 times a week, and her prep period is about an hour long). I asked her if she could make up some excuse to get out of it, but she said that she couldn’t, because he’s her boss. That if your boss wants to come talk to you, you suck it up and let them talk to you, because later on with promotions and bonuses and whatnot, your boss has confidence in you, and is more likely to select you.

    I understand her reasoning, so I was wondering if that’s one of those situations where you just suck it up, unless you have an unusually understanding/awesome boss (who, now that I think about it, probably wouldn’t be doing this in the first place)?

    1. Bea*

      I can’t imagine how a principal gobbling up a prep period every day will get her any extra money in the end. It’s not likea corporate structure where you rub elbows with a CEO and suddenly you’re up for a slot in the C Suite when one opens up…

      A boss should open up by asking if she has time to talk. That gives the opening of “I’m swamped with getting these exams graded before my next class…can I swing by your office later to talk?” Unless she’s seen this boss give favorable schedules or extra money to others, she’s just assuming and letting someone stress her out. It’s okay to tell someone kindly that it’s a bad time to talk. Even if it’s your boss. A boss rarely respects the people who allow themselves to be trampled all over.

    2. CM*

      I doubt that you’ll be able to sway your mom on this one — but no, your boss doesn’t have to be unusually understanding to grasp that you need time to do your work. You should be able to say, “I’d like to talk to you more about this, but I need to finish grading these papers by 4 p.m. Can I stop by after school?” Or if it’s a pattern, “I’ve noticed that you’ve been coming by to talk during my prep period. I want to have time to talk with you, but I also need to keep that period free to catch up on work. Is there another time that would work better for you?”

    3. Persimmons*

      This may vary by state or even by school district, but in my area, teachers are contractually required to have a set amount of prep periods in a week. If the principal is eating up that time with his demands, she has a grievance. She should talk to her department head, and escalate to her union rep. (If she isn’t unionized, then I have no idea what to do.)

    4. Kathenus*

      Maybe your mom can ask the principal about setting up a couple of 15-20 minute catch up meetings each week. Say to him that she’s looking to schedule her prep time as efficiently as she can, so could she ask him to meet with her every Tuesday and Thursday from 2-2:15, which allows her to balance her lesson plans/grading/etc. and keeping up strong lines of communication with him. Proactively offering a solution might be helpful.

    5. Luisa*

      …what kind of school is this where the principal has that kind of free time?!?

      I agree with the suggestion to set up a regular check-in meeting.

    6. VictoriaQ*

      Honestly, its her last year, and I really don’t think she cares anymore. I might suggest the weekly meet-ups, but I’m pretty certain she’ll just continue on as she has. Since she’s retiring at the end of the year, I don’t really blame her. Thank you all, though, for the suggestions you’ve given me. I’ll give her your advice if she brings it up again.

      1. valentine*

        If she’s not getting the prep done, he’s not going to know he’s the problem and may rate her poorly on time management and preparedness.

  169. Bea*

    Has anyone done it backwards and gone to school after being entrenched in a career? I have the opportunity for tuition assistance and my boss didn’t require a degree because of my experience being in the double digits. However a degree would make every door pop open when I move on.

    I’m wondering how others have done and how it feels? I’m concerned I’ll be frustrated with theory and books when I know the workplace answers instead.

    I’ve never attended any higher ed and I’m terrified of everything including the enrollment process. All the forms and websites look like they’re in a foreign language, this is damaging to my self esteem needless to say…so I’m hoping someone else has been at this weird crossroads before.

    1. ArtK*

      Just finished a master’s degree a few months ago. I’m 40 years into my career. Feels great! I was an indifferent student for undergrad, lo these many years go, and was afraid that that had carried through. Turned out, I was able to apply myself and do quite well.

      1. Bea*

        That’s why I skirted going to school prior. I struggled to care during formal education early on. I did well enough but was lackluster in approach.

        Now that I’ve got a passion for my expertise, I think I’ll click into place in terms of better focus on course work. It’s the weird unknowns that haunt me mostly now. Thankfully it’s accounting and we’re all notorious for keeping our distance.

    2. periwinkle*

      If a degree will open doors, why not?

      A lot of programs, both undergrad and graduate, are geared towards working adults. A good program will let you (and even expect you) to draw on your experience when discussing $SUBJECT concepts and application.

      Have you considered community college, assuming you’re in the US? It’s a low-cost way to complete core coursework while getting used to being in college. You can then transfer those credits to a 4-year institution to complete your bachelor’s.

      1. Bea*

        Yes, since I’m just starting out, I’m looking at getting an AAS at a community college. Then I can transfer for a BS if all clicks together. I couldn’t imagine starting to shell out the big bucks for a four year school at this stage.

        That’s a great view. I didn’t bother to think about the overall set up being working professionals. I just had a dreadful mental image of being surrounded by 19 year olds fresh out of high school. And I’m happy to be the old person who may actually be helpful to the younger classmates but I may also have a touch of pre-midlife crisis syndrome popping up.

        1. WG*

          You should be able to take a course or two before you formally enroll in a degree program. Having the opportunity to experience what being a student is like before you commit could be helpful.

          1. Bea*

            That’s what I was hoping for. My company’s assistance program will pay for the first couple courses from my dim understanding of the schedule I’m reading. They require I pass the classes they pay for but not that I get a degree in the end.

    3. Rey*

      (I think) I understand where you’re coming from, because I was the first to graduate from college in my family. Don’t sell yourself short–your work experience is valuable and gives you lots of skills that people who have only attended college don’t have. You’re right that you might be different than the typical college freshman, but if anything, that makes you more focused and driven to succeed. I remember some non-traditional students (that’s what my college called them) who were mid-40s, like single moms who came back to work, or someone who just didn’t have a chance to attend college sooner, in my undergraduate program. I think they saw the value of it when there were some days that I took it for granted. And down the road if you’re ever interested, I’m currently in an Master of Public Administration evening program that is specifically for people who are currently working. The professors all know that we’re a little different from the full-time day students, so it draws a lot on our work experience and our homework/projects are supposed to be applying things that we learn in class that could then be turned into our work supervisors to answer questions/problems at work.

      1. Bea*

        Thank you for this thoughtful comment.

        Non-traditional is a good way to put it.

        I’m an accountant and have deep experience in business operations management. I’m at that point in life I have been head hunted for possible Controller positions but most are put off by the lack of a degree.

        I would be the first in my family to get a degree. My dad did a semester in art school forever ago but dropped out and was immediately drafted. He has always wanted me to go to school but it’s expensive and at 19 I didn’t know what I wanted to do…only then did I get a job from a friend’s sister who needed an accounting assistant. I was doing full charge bookkeeping before we were able to legally drink away the stress of small business financials needless to say.

        Then I thought that you only went to college for accounting if you wanted to be a CPA. I have zero desire to ever go that route.

        I’m going into this viewing it as a “certification” process that “I’ve done this for fifteen years…oh you want a degree too? Okay here you go.” since its about 50/50 right now who wants a degree or not.

        Meanwhile I’ve had to clean up numerous books left in shambles by people with degrees. So I’ve got a huge chip on my shoulder to fill in ASAP (I’m working on it, I really am!)

        1. Business Librarian*

          Evening classes in most higher ed institutions are focused more on adult students than the 19 year olds you’re thinking of. In any case, a lot of those 19 year olds are also working full-time! One of the things you may not be aware of is the amount of support you get at a college these days. I work at a four-year university, but we have a lot of adult students. Our Career Center (where you may not get great advice according to stories I’ve heard here!) and our Student Success Center would both love to talk to you from day one about getting yourself settled in.

          My best advice is to go to the community college website you’re thinking about and just browse all the information they have for students. You will probably be assigned an advisor who will be another resource. We all want you to succeed! And just to plug my role, don’t forget the librarians who stand ready to help with any research you have.

    4. Sabine the Very Mean*

      The strongest students I went to undergrad and grad school with were well into a successful career. You’ll understand things at a depth that others simply cannot. Yes, you’ll do god-awful menial work but that’s okay. Go for it!

  170. NewGrad18*

    I just started a new job a couple weeks ago (woohoo!! AAM was so helpful throughout my search-thanks!). However, I’m having a hard time building relationships with my coworkers. Everyone is very busy, and I sit in a separate room from my team. Tasks are assigned online and most work-related questions are posed and answered through an online chat system, so I can go a whole day without talking to the people I work with face to face. I am an introvert, but this is a little too much. I don’t have any real reason to go over to the other room and talk to my team other than to just say hi, and I’d love to do that but it feels like it would be weird and maybe annoying, especially since everyone’s so busy. Anyone have any advice on how to form relationships with my coworkers?

    1. Kathenus*

      Is there a break room, and if so are there times that you might be able to schedule a break to coincide with others? Same question for an occasional lunch. Maybe bring in a treat one day to give you a chance to go around and let people know – good morning, just so you know I brought in some cookies today, they’re in the breakroom. Not suggesting you do that all the time, but it might open up some casual conversation to have a reason to go talk to people this first time.

    2. Alex*

      Would it be weird to ask them to join you for a drink after work one day? If you have a group chat channel (heavy slack user here!), can you say, “Hey, since I’m new here, I thought it might be nice to get to know some of you a little better. Does anyone want to join me for a drink tomorrow after work?”

      If that feels unnatural for you, see if you can chat someone up if you see them in the office kitchen or at some other similar interaction. If there is one person you feel like might be more open than another, or that you might click with better, maybe you could invite them to grab lunch with you one day, or even go for a walk to get a coffee one afternoon as a break. I personally find one-on-one interactions much easier than group ones.

  171. hey nonny nonny*

    Just wanted to get a gut-check on my read of a situation.

    I’m one of two team leads on a 6-person team. This does not involve supervising, but I train them and take the lead on many projects. My supervisor let me know that a member of the team brought up complaints about the other team lead–complaints that I happen to think are true (she doesn’t pull her weight with group projects, she treats team meetings as optional, etc). My supervisor is treating this a bit skeptically because she really likes the other team lead (this is obvious to everyone).

    My supervisor asked me to consider whether this seems like something I, as team lead A, should address with both team lead B and the wider team (asking the other team lead to change some of her practices and also asking the rest of the team to be more direct with their workload concerns–they are rather gossipy). The other option is that the supervisor handles it, but it would “feel different,” in her words, coming from a supervisor.

    Am I wrong to think the supervisor should handle it in this case? Our team doesn’t have a real culture of coaching each other after the initial training stage. Maybe it should be something I bring up, but I wasn’t the one who raised the complaints and I’m at the same level as the team lead. Isn’t this something supervisors do, typically? Or am I wrong?

    1. LGC*

      So basically, your supervisor is asking you to be the supervisor in this case while she twiddles her thumbs. (From the way you describe your job, it seems like you don’t have formal management responsibility.) Am I reading that right?

      (…I’m being a bit snarky, but also – that seems like what she’s literally saying! She’s asking you to tell your coworker to change her behavior and check your team with no disciplinary authority.)

      1. hey nonny nonny*

        Sadly, you are right…I don’t have formal management responsibility. Thank you for your input; it does really seem like that’s what she’s saying here.

        1. LGC*

          Thanks.

          To elaborate – not only is this something your supervisor should be handling, I think that this is an essential part of her job. Your coworker is literally not doing her job – she’s skipping meetings (I assume these are useful meetings, which may be an oxymoron) and not producing the deliverables she’s expected to. The team issue is only slightly less clear – you don’t say whether the fact that they gossip is causing immediate issues right now, but it certainly could in the future.

          But also…have you told your supervisor you share those concerns? Those complaints may have more weight if you’re backing them up. I’m a little hesitant to suggest this because it could backfire – but you share responsibility on the project with your bad coworker. If you do present this, focus on how her behavior is directly impacting progress – like, for example, she didn’t show up to the weekly progress meeting and was not updated on X issue.

          1. hey nonny nonny*

            Thanks for all of this input. You probably won’t see this, but I thought I’d reply just in case: yes, I told her I shared the concerns and today I was able to go back to her and explain concrete ways it was impacting progress. It’s gone well and my supervisor seems more willing to handle it herself now. Thanks!

    2. Psyche*

      You are right. The supervisor needs to handle this. You have no authority over the other team lead or the other team. If you were the one to bring it up then maybe a first step could be bringing your concerns to the other team lead directly, but that is not the case. It sounds like the supervisor just doesn’t want to have an uncomfortable conversation.

    3. CatCat*

      You are not wrong. The supervisor should handle this.

      “The other option is that the supervisor handles it, but it would ‘feel different,’ in her words, coming from a supervisor.”

      THAT’S THE POINT! I would definitely push back. “You asked me to consider talking to the other team lead, but honestly, as someone without management authority, I do not feel comfortable with this. You mentioned that you could handle it, but that it would ‘feel different’ if you did. It would definitely feel different coming from a supervisor rather than someone like me without management authority. In fact, that’s the reason it really should come from a supervisor.”

    4. Kathenus*

      Sounds like she knows the other lead has some issues, but is friendly with them and doesn’t want to be the one to bring it up. So she’s trying to get you to do the dirty work for her. You are right, she’s the supervisor and she should be the one to address it.

    5. Alex*

      You are 100% right. It is totally inappropriate for her to ask you to give negative performance feedback to your peer. She should be doing that, ESPECIALLY if it isn’t something you brought to her attention yourself. (Meaning, it’s not some complaint that she is asking you to try to handle yourself first by having a conversation.) Yeah, it would “feel different.” That’s the point!

  172. Yessss to Bananacrackers*

    What do you do when a coworker/employee has an issue with the big boss?

    I work in a small office as a sort-of HR person. One of my coworkers, Amanda, has some issues with the program manager (her supervisor’s boss). She feels disrespected due to a piling up of small slights (not getting a benefit she requested, being talked over, etc). Past employees have had this issue with the program manager and it really contributed to a negative working environment. However, many of us are able to just shrug things off and choose not to read into these slights or take them personally. Overall, I think she’s a pretty good boss but she has her quirks.

    The supervisor is now asking me what her role is in dealing with this. It’s such a small office that interpersonal dramas have a big impact on everyone’s working experience. Should she let the big boss deal with it how she sees fit? Just deal with the issues that arise if she behaves unprofessionally? Does she need to “have Amanda’s back” and advocate for her with the big boss?

    I don’t want this to ruin an otherwise happy workplace! Help!

  173. Dee*

    I’m a bit put off by a recent interview experience – it was a first interview and i bought my interviewer coffee and a muffin. We were meeting out of the office at a cafe, after we met and introduced ourselves I asked if he wanted anything before sitting down – and he interpreted this to mean i’d buy him something i guess. I’m 20 years younger than him – although i’m interviewing for a mid to senior position. And i’m unemployed at the moment so it kinda rankled as i was planing to say i had already had coffee to get out of spending any money if had to! FYI i got a second interview – but so did all 3 of the other candidates he did a first interview with. It just rankled and felt weird! And be more careful with wording i guess!

    1. voluptuousfire*

      If anything, he should have bought YOU the coffee and muffin. When you’re an employer, your candidate is your guest and you should cover their expenses within reason. They’re selling themselves to you as much as you are to them. It’s definitely weird but don’t really worry about it. Worst case you have a funny hiring story to tell at the holiday party if you do get hired. :)

    2. Bea*

      Another reason why I loath off site interviews. It sounds like an awkward situation all around, I’m glad you’re moving forward and hopefully round 2 is much better!

    3. Alex*

      I would be put off by that too. That is just bad manners on the part of the interviewer. But, if everything else seems good I wouldn’t let it stop me from taking an otherwise good job. (Especially if you are unemployed now!)

  174. Dramaholic*

    Has anyone been brutally honest when giving out references? I’ve been asked to be a referee for a soon-to-be-ex-employee whose work habits are, frankly, appalling.

    The only positive comment I can think of is Steve turns up to work on time. But when he’s here he contributes very little, complains a lot, and expects to be paid extra to do jobs within his job description. The other day we had an unexpected delivery of 30 boxes dumped in front of our store. All the team were working quickly to move it out to the back. Steve was literally standing behind others watching everyone sweat. When I asked him to help he would slowly shuffle over to move one box, complain that he was “too busy to do this”, then stand around to watch us. This is very typical of his working habits.

    If I were a prospective employer I would want to know all this. But it seems like giving out honest references with bad employees is rare. Is it ethically wrong to jeopardise someone’s employment prospects even when there is a legitimate reason to warn the hiring manager?

    (P.S. Where I live we have strict employment laws that make it virtually impossible for employers to fire staff)

    1. Psyche*

      Generally, if you can’t give a positive reference you should simply refuse to be a reference. When Steve asked you should have told him that you could not give him a good reference. You still can go back and tell him that on reflection you do not think that it would be in his best interest to list you as a reference. If you agree to be a reference then you are essentially lying to him since it is generally assumed when asked if you will be a reference that they are asking if you will give a positive reference.

    2. Kathenus*

      If you are going to share any portion of information like you describe above, do it via a phone call, not email. If I know the person calling for the reference, I’m likely to be more open and detailed. If I don’t know the employer doing the reference check personally, how I respond depends on my organization’s rules on references and each situation.

      Be careful of saying detailed and specific information about someone to an employer you don’t know, you never know what they might share and even if it’s all true it could come back to haunt you if they tell the employee about the bad reference and they dispute the facts. It’s tempting to want to give all of these details after having dealt with a bad employee all this time, but it’s not worth the potential cost.

      It’s very easy to give a bad reference without giving any specifics. With your example above, if your reference for Steve was ‘I can definitely tell you that Steve had a good record of punctuality in his time here. That’s really all I have to say’. That will tell them everything they need to know without you being specific.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      “You will be lucky to get Steve to work for you”
      “I am pleased to say that Steve is a former colleague of mine”

      Sorry that you are facing the dilemma of giving someone a good reference to get rid of them and giving an accurate reference, which means you are stuck with them.

    5. Alex*

      Share with Steve what the content of your reference will be, and let him decide whether or not he wants to give your name.

      If you get a call asking how his work habits are, be honest when asked questions, but also maybe don’t volunteer extra bad things about him beyond what is asked. Then you can say you were just answering the questions asked to you, not trying to throw him under the bus.

    6. The Other Dawn*

      I would tell him you don’t want to be a reference and why. If you then get a call from a prospective employer, tell them like it is without being malicious. In other words, just the facts. The facts are the facts.

      A former coworker once put me down as a reference without telling me, which was a very bad idea on her part. It wasn’t really that she was a horrible employee, but she really wasn’t suited to the job and she never fully learned the system she was working on for over four years; she needed a lot of hand-holding and created a lot of messes I had to fix. I happened to be newly working at the company to which she applied. They asked me about her and…I told them all about her. Everything. It was all factual, nothing exaggerated or made up, but I didn’t leave anything out. I explained why X would be a problem for her, how she could do Y but it really wasn’t a good fit for her, and explained why this job also wouldn’t be a good fit, as it was the same as the one at our previous company she just came from. She didn’t get the job and the hiring manager was glad I was honest about her.

  175. Jane of all Trades*

    Job change / career change question:
    I recently switched careers, going from my old job i had been in for a very long time to a new job in a new career. I worked hard to enter the new field, and the job comes with a substantial salary increase, but two weeks in I’m not enjoying it at all, and have just been waiting until I can go home at the end of each day.
    People who changed careers after a fairly long time in your first career – did you experience something similar? Did it take you long to get used to the new job?

    1. Daphne*

      Sorry I don’t have any advice but I’m in the same boat! I’ve been in a part time role for 7 months in a field I thought I wanted to break into but I don’t enjoy it. Ok, work is work but I don’t feel any connection to what I’m doing. Some things that I found difficult in the beginning have got easier with practice, so maybe you can hang in there! Are there other roles in your industry that you could get by. using this job as a stepping stone?

    2. Tash*

      To be honest: no. I loved my new field from the start. But it’s one job, and you’re new, so give it time. Do you have any idea what is making you feel this way exactly?

  176. many bells down*

    I had an interview yesterday for that position I wanted! They do want someone to start ASAP, though, so my hopes that they wouldn’t fill it until the new year were dashed. So I did feel I should tell them I’d be out of commission for a month at the end of the year and if I don’t get it then I don’t get it.

  177. Professional Merchandiser*

    I have some good news!! I came on here a few months ago ranting because I got cut to part-time (that part was all right. Only 24 hours.) BUT, then they came back and increased my hours, but still under the threshold for full-time according to them. 32 hours. (Never mind the DOL classifies anything over 30 hours full-time.) Well, we got a message that starting in January anyone who work 30.25 hours or more a week will be considered full-time. Which means that I will get all my vacation, holidays, personal days and sick days again. We do accrue PTO as part-time, but it’s only one hour for every 30 worked. I hate that I missed most of my benefits this year, but hey, at least it’s coming back without having to work more hours.

  178. BookPony*

    So updates for anyone who wanted them:

    Re: Me applying for a job on a different team that made more money, but may not have the same professional development as my current team – Boss Dude came up to me and told me that I was stellar, that my interview was superb and that he wanted to hire me…but the way our job works meant he couldn’t because I didn’t have enough relevant experience. He was big mad too, lol. I told him I understood and he groused a bit more about the terrible system. But who knows? Maybe next year… (This same thing has come up before when I applied for a different job on my current team, so I was mostly just amused at that being the reason again.)

    Re: the dog that barks at all hours – Per some users’ advice (thanks again!) I emailed my apartment complex again and the barking and howling has stopped. There was one brief howl session last night at 2AM, but I think the dog was having a nightmare or something because it ended rather quickly. Poor thing.

  179. Bad week I'm glad it's over*

    I’m so so so so fucking angry. I hate my boss. I hate my boss’s boss. I hate all the assholes who suck up to my boss. I hate the people who get away with anything while I get punished for everything. I hate having to put up with inept people all around me and then get dinged for any mistake. I hate getting nit-picked on my writing by a supervisor who can’t or won’t choose her words carefully. I hate it that I get evaluated only on information I publish about white people, while everything diversity-oriented I publish is either ignored or gets no feedback at all. I hate having to deal with a whiny snot who won’t do any work because they don’t feel good while I have diabetes, a raging and very painful infection, and a sore butt from having to get really huge antibiotic injections every day. I hate being asked for my input and then having my ideas rejected out-of-hand by someone who doesn’t know shit about my idea and refuses to ask, then moves the goalpost if I explain it anyway. I hate having a bunch of job duties that are “urgent” while people on the other side of the building can get away with letting things go for months or years. I hate getting assigned to committees that don’t accomplish anything except tabling the exact topic we’re supposed to be discussing because the chair can’t let the majority decide and lets the whiny unprepared person slow the whole thing down. I hate being blown off by my supervisor, who won’t answer my emails even if they’re urgent but answers everyone else’s. I hate having a vindictive petty, mean-spirited grandboss who won’t give me a raise because of something I did almost two years ago (that wasn’t even wrong but it created work for him). I hate working at a place where blue-eyed white men are able to be rude to anyone, but I can’t object to being treated rudely without getting a dressing down from my boss. I hate having the fact that I’ve been a good sport helping out another unit for months or years be overlooked because I want to take a 2-week break from it and let the slackers who never help take on the few hours I would have helped.

    1. Kat in VA*

      I have literally nothing useful to add other than I’m glad the bad week is over, and I have you have a restful, relaxing weekend. Sometimes all this $hit just stacks up on you and makes you feel like you’re gonna blow. I hope next week is better!

  180. Bad week I'm glad it's over*

    Ugh and to make matters worse, my original comment didn’t post.

    Could one more thing go wrong this week?

  181. JNH*

    I had my first ever grown-up interview today (yay!), with an HR rep and two members of the management team. I want to send thank-you emails, but I only know the contact info of the HR rep, and the first names of the other two members. I’ve been able to find one manager on LinkedIn but had no luck with the other one. How should I proceed? Ask the HR rep for the contact info of the other two interviewers? Send a thank-you email just to the HR rep and ask her to pass on my thanks to the managers?

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Yes, you can send the thank you to the HR rep and either (a) ask her to forward the note, or (b) ask her for the other interviewers’ email addresses. Just say that you did not get a business card from the managers. I recommend (b), as you may want to tailor your emails based on your individual conversations with each person.

  182. Courageous cat*

    I just wanna update y’all that I started my new job and I love it. I’ve only ever loved one other job before, so this is quite a rarity for me. I’ve been through a lot of job transitions in the past year and each time I found a new one, I would hate it and immediately start looking for something new, so I am so so glad it worked out the way it did.

    I have a good salary, no set schedule, unlimited PTO (which is whatever), dogs in the office (sorry but I love it), everyone is mature and nothing is dysfunctional or corrupt, our office space is in a great area of my city and close to me and is a beautiful space in general, we all have Macbooks which is something I’ve never had before and love… and so on.

    Most interestingly, I’m very introverted and thought I would hate having an open office plan, but I actually love it. I feel more engaged and my workday is more interesting because we can just sit around and plan stuff out at random and talk intermittently. Just makes the day go by faster. Admittedly, I think liking your workplace and your coworkers goes a long way towards making this pleasant.

  183. International_Librarian*

    I’ve been binge reading Allison in preparation for job interviews (and reading letters that don’t deal with interviews too) and it has brought up old memories of Toxic Job. Thankfully, I’m gone now and don’t need advice, but I wish I had known about Allison’s job board then. I did want to share some of the CRAZY things my supervisor did, though:
    Background: I was only 26 and new at workplace norms/expectations, so by the end of this, I was already so far down the hole I didn’t know what was “normal” or not–like the metaphor of the frog in the boiling water. I worked at a conservative Southern Baptist School as the sole K-12 librarian. My supervisor was moved from supervising all of the elementary school teachers to supervising ONLY ME because she had too much turnover. At first, it was fine. Then, she started confiding in me about my coworkers and how “inept” they were as teachers. She called me in front of all the faculty at a rare all-faculty meeting to praise my skills and professionalism and give me a bedazzled whistle as an award (how does that fit with being a librarian, I don’t know. Bookmark or bookends would have been better, but I digress). She was always coming to the library to chat about other teachers and even the principals. That was year one.
    The next school year, (year two) my boyfriend proposed to me and I planned to get married the following summer. That year was NUTS with her. She planned a bridal shower for me at the superintendent’s house. There were about 40 of my female coworkers there, including the principal and the superintendent’s wife. At the bridal shower, I received household gifts (towels, sheets, blenders, etc). SHE gave me lingerie, including a thong and a see-through nightie. I saw what it was without opening the box all the way, closed it and told everyone that it was “for my husband’s eyes only”. NOOOO–she couldn’t stand that. She grabbed the box from me, opened it, and tried to hand it to me to hold. I tried to put it back in the box. She then took it out of the box AND HELD IT UP AGAINST HERSELF AND SAID, “Ohhh la la! I’m [OP’s name] on her wedding night! I bet this won’t stay on long!” WHILE SHE TWIRLED AROUND THE ROOM AND WIGGLED HER HIPS. No one laughed or said anything. It was dead silent. Some people looked away. Other people’s mouths were slightly open. I was totally red. She was oblivious to all of this. Throughout the opening of the gifts, she had been writing down what I said (I know this game, so I had been very G rated) at the end of the gift opening, session, she announced that the things that I had said “would be what I would say on my wedding night…but unfortunately, it looks like it would be pretty tame”. Then she read the comments, but stopped after 5 or 6 because no one was laughing. She then blamed me for being “lame.” (FYI, I exchanged the lingerie to VS for a bathrobe I gifted to my sister).
    Most of that year was fine with her at school, although she continued to confide in me about my coworkers/principals even when I ignored her/asked her to stop/told her I was busy.
    I had the wedding in the summer; she came as a guest of an acquaintance. As a gift, she gave me ONE lime green “beach” theme guest hand towel with ruffles (honestly, her NOT coming would’ve been a better gift). At the wedding, she kept asking me questions about work and trying to monopolize my time.
    When I returned to school the next year, she was 1000% WORSE than ever. Something had changed and she was no longer happy with my work. Every two weeks she would call me into her office to berate me over minor things (I remember one instance that I allowed a student to “work off” their lost book fee in the library and although the previous year she had been fine with this policy, now she didn’t like it. Another time, it was because I was wearing sneakers at work–not against dress code–and she would prefer I wear heels). These sessions would go on for 1-2 HOURS, and at the end, she forced me to pray with her and berate me for “making her act like this.” After 4 months of this, I had a panic attack and went to the hospital. I got put on anti-anxiety meds to finish the year and quit.
    It took me two years to finally come out of the fog of that abusive supervisor relationship and realize that IT WAS NOT NORMAL. However, I have absolutely no desire to EVER work in another religious-affiliated school ever again (although I’m still a Christian). I work in an international private school now, and it’s SO much healthier and professional. She continued to work there another 5 years after I left: was promoted to the Middle School Principal for two years, and then left for another school because she had too high turnover in teachers.
    If you’ve read this far, thanks! It was nice to share :)

    3. International_Librarian*

      Thanks! :) The organization did have HR—but IT WAS HER. *She* was the whole HR Dept when I was there. I totally expected *something* to happen after her ridiculous behavior at the bridal shower, especially since we were a Baptist school….but crickets. This school talked a lot about how we were “a family” and how we had to live with each other and make compromises and forgive each other like you do for family.

      1. International_Librarian*

        Haha I just remembered another shocking comment she made during one of the marathon 2 hour sessions where she was telling me how terrible I was at everything: She said: “I’ve noticed that when I see you working, you don’t look as happy as I saw you on that Saturday.” Me: A confused look. “What do you mean? What Saturday did you see me?” Her: “Oh, on June 20th. When I saw you there.” Me: “You mean at my wedding? I don’t look as happy at work as I did on my wedding day?” Her: “Yes, you just seem down. Is your marriage ok??” I don’t remember what I said, stuttered we were fine or something probably. I just couldn’t believe it that apparently seeing how happy I was on MY WEDDING DAY upped her expectations so I look that happy every day at work!

  184. TV*

    I just got word that my coworker that walked out 6 weeks ago is supposed to be back next week, though we don’t know the day. Long story short, it was a pay dispute and he got up and left a meeting about it. The pay dispute was settled about 4 weeks ago and I guess he’s ready to come back. Has anyone seen this before? I’m wondering how long he’s really going to stay or if he will face repercussions that force him out.

  185. The Doctor*

    Oh, the joys of working with people who have no concept of time…

    Wednesday morning: “We need cost estimates for two possible teapot production runs ASAP. We’ll send you the specs.”

    Friday evening, after all of us have already left: “Where are the cost estimates? By the way, here are the specs.”

  186. Some Dude on the Internet*

    Welp, it was my turn to get laid off this week.

    The good news is that my separation is presumably on good terms because my boss was happy with my performance. I knew several co-workers pretty well and would love to get in touch with them. I was told that I could still come visit to have lunch with co-workers, etc…

    But at the same time, I’m reminded me of a case where a visit didn’t go well even though all the LW did was stay in the lobby to drop off a gift: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/05/my-boss-fired-and-wont-let-me-come-back-to-visit-friends-skipping-my-bosss-barbecue-and-more.html

    So if I were to visit my old co-workers, how long should I wait after the separation? I’m thinking that it should be after I get a new job at the very least. That way, my old company is less likely to think that I’m trying to stir up drama. Thoughts?

    1. Alex*

      Can you invite your coworkers to hang out someplace else, not during work? If you want to keep in touch with them as friends, it makes more sense that you would interact with them in a “friend” context rather than at work. Lunch is fine…but maybe at the local taco shop rather than the work break room.

      1. Some Dude on the Internet*

        That’s a good suggestion. There is no shortage of restaurants in the area. I don’t actually plan to step inside the office except maybe for a quick greeting.

        For the record, the company was pretty small and had a closely-knit culture. It’s not uncommon for former employees and family members to come in to visit.

  187. Alex*

    I’m way late to the party here but hoping someone will weigh in.

    I had an interview today. It went spectacularly. I was invited for a second interview via email 15 minutes after the interview was over.

    I applied for the position knowing I might be slightly overqualified. I have seven years more experience than was requested in the job ad. The reason I’m looking is because my current workplace has no room for growth, as well as the fact that I want to move to a more affordable area. I have kind of specialized skills that are hard to match, and this job is an home run in terms of being in my area of expertise, but it is a lateral move.

    But one thing that was apparent was that I actually have more years of experience in this kind of role than the person who would be my manager does (and I think I’m probably older than she is). For example, I’ve been working in my role for ten years doing teapot design, but she’s only been doing teapot design for five years. The difference seems to be that opportunities to move up occur more frequently at this new company than they do at my own, since there has been no opportunity for me to get a promotion in the last ten years, so while I’ve been stuck at the same level all these years, she has moved up the ranks. (And it isn’t that I suck at my job–I get consistently high performance reviews. There has been NO promotion in my department for anyone the entire time I’ve worked here.)

    I don’t know how I feel about this. They are clearly very interested in my candidacy. And, well, they should be, because I’m highly experienced, qualified, and an overall cool person! But I’m concerned that a) they apparently have so much turnover that junior people are elevated to managerial level rather quickly (should I be concerned about that?) and b) What would my relationship with my manager look like if I am more experienced and older than she is? Can I handle that? Am I a bad person for even thinking that?

    Of course, this manager has more experience AT THIS COMPANY than I do, and I certainly don’t have managerial experience, so it’s not like I’m thinking I will waltz in with all the answers to everything. But, I’ve just never been in a situation where the person who is my manager would actually have fewer years under her belt than I do. To be clear, this isn’t the kind of job where the manager does more managing than the actual kind of work of her reports–the manager is very much involved in the day-to-day work, and needs to be experienced and knowledgeable about the details of it.

    I guess part of it is realizing how much the no-promotions-ever environment has been hurting me professionally, and that had I started out someplace else, I’d be much further ahead in my career by now. But I’m also worried generally about the dynamic. Has anyone out there been in my position before, and how did it work out?

    1. Techworker*

      So I obviously don’t know about your particular company but the fact you say you have no managerial experience is interesting – given in lots of companies management is way more of a managers job than the thing they were doing before!
      This is not at all unheard of in my company – There are teams where the manager is the nearly the least experienced person on the team in terms of years. This is mostly because some people don’t want to manage and/or aren’t cut out for that side of it – it doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t progressed. The manager doesn’t need to be the person with the most knowledge in every single area, they need to be the person who knows who has most knowledge in each area, and brings that together with the project deadlines and priorities.

      So… I don’t think this is necessarily a negative – you just don’t know. The manager could have 5 years experience and be terrible, or have 5 years experience and be amazing. And if you focus on doing a good job and there’s room for you to improve what’s going on by suggesting better ideas/processes etc then as long as it’s done professionally that’s only a good thing for you and the team. Plus if they *do* promote people quite quickly then you might only even be managed by this person for as long as it takes you to learn the ropes/company specific knowledge anyway.

      1. Alex*

        Yes, I realize that in some cases, the manager is hired more for their managing skills/people skills rather than being the most expert person on the actual work. In my company, the manager is usually the most senior/experienced person of the group. For example, my group is Teapot Design, we are a bunch of teapot designers, and my manager is the teapot design manager, as well as the most experienced teapot designer (and not only manages the team, but still designs teapots herself). This other company seems to structure their department the same way, with the manager still designing teapots as well as managing the team.

        I will have to keep in mind that this company might do things differently. I’ll see on my second interview (this interview was via Skype, so I didn’t see or meet any of the people on the team).

        1. Techworker*

          To be fair this is also true at my company – all managers start as technical people and are expected to take the final technical decision – that doesn’t make the management side any less important though :)

    2. NewJobWendy*

      I’m in a similar situation. I focus on doing MY job. It might be tempting to try to do your manager’s job for them, but focus on YOUR outcomes and performance metrics. You might find it goes better than you anticipate. If it doesn’t, remind yourself that you aren’t responsible for your manager’s decisions.

      I’m with you about the realization that you made choices a long time ago that you only now realize have hindered your career. Again – focus on being a an absolute rock star in the present and the future will take care of itself.

  188. JJ*

    I’m a little late but hopefully someone will be able to give me some ideas with how this all should be handled. I have somethings that I would like some advice on.

    First Scenario:
    After scheduling an second interview that will be over Webex( out of state employer) with an employer on Thursday, something came up at work and Tuesday, October 9th was no longer my best time for the interview ( Monday is Columbus day) . I let the employer know within the same day of what was going on and i received an reply stating that they would see what could be done about rescheduling an interview on Wednesday, October 10 and that his office was closed on Monday for the holiday. Since this will be done over Webex, I want the interview done while I’m home which is why I want to take leave for this interview. Friday, October 5th was the funeral of a family friend, so from early morning until evening I have been with family and friends mourning our loss. After checking my email once I got home, I realized that he never sent an confirmation email about the interview being rescheduled.

    Though the interviewer seems to be flexible and understanding. I’m not sure how to handled all of this without coming off as over eager and pushy. I’m worried that Tuesday is still on his schedule and he forgot about my latest email. I want to send an follow-up either through phone, email or both on Monday to illustrate that I’ve taken that initiative to contact their office. I know their office is closed on Monday for an holiday, however I worry that if I don’t take action they will misinterpret this entire situation. What would you suggest? This is a great opportunity and I don’t want this to slip through my fingers.

    Second Question:
    Is it a common practice for an employer to send an job invite Friday night and after a national holiday (aka. Columbus day) then have a interview scheduled the following workday morning at 8am?

    1. Alex*

      I would consider the Tuesday interview cancelled, since you said you couldn’t make it and asked to reschedule. He said he would try to reschedule for Wednesday, but that is probably him saying “I’ll see if Wednesday works, and if it doesn’t we’ll figure out another day ” rather than “I will see if Wednesday works, and if it doesn’t, I will expect you Tuesday even though you said you can’t make it.”

      If you don’t hear from him Tuesday morning, I’d send an email following up about the possibility of Wednesday.

    2. valentine*

      I think they see a business day as just that and either assume or don’t think about how often you’re checking email. I once had an interview scheduled for Christmas Eve.

    3. Grace Less*

      If it isn’t a government office, Columbus Day is probably a regular work day. Everywhere I’ve worked gets 6 holidays – New Years Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Day.
      Presidents Day, Columbus Day, MLK, Veterans, etc. don’t impact operations except that the banks and post office are closed.

  189. Trist*

    Hi,

    I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to offend anyone by asking either, please let me know if I am.

    In the kitchen at work a coworker of mine, let’s call her Jane, was being friendly to our team manager (let’s call her Maria) and handed her a cup of coffee. Maria then litterally said “thank you, you are like my own little slave!”.

    Now, Jane is black.

    Maria said this in front of 10 people who I think all heard it. Jane is 19, very young and not interested in making a thing out of it.

    I am white, I feel like this fight does not belong to me to start and yet feel like screaming it out loud.

    Lost as to what to do. Do I speak up on behalf of Jane to the upper management? Do I shut up because it is not my fight to fight?

    I have made it clear to Jane that we would all stand beside her and back her up if she decided to say something, but she insists to brush it off.

    I’m 20 years older than her and have no issues bringing this up as principle as I have fought my own fights before , but I feel like I should let Jane decide. Why shouldn’t I.

    Is it offensive that I am asking you guys for advice? I think I mainly feel like I need to speak up for her because she is so young and thinks they won’t take her seriously (her words).

    Do you think I could anonomyze Jane and still have management take me seriously?

    Should I even?

    I feel so hurt on her behalf but I guess she could be used to it.

    Thank you for any advice even if it is to butt out.

    Last note: over the past month she has ridiculed someone’s religion. Openly questioned juniors to her if another junior was “a transvestite” over multiple days. She has asked someone “your name is xx, that doesn’t sound very English, you’re not from here are you” where the junior to her has explained yes she is where Maria has then again loudly in the office questioned the legitimy of the answer. A junior to her quit the job and Maria loudly explained that it was because she had “mental problems” and shrugged with a grin.

    So, all in all Maria is awful.

    1. Kathenus*

      When I started reading on the first comment I agree that it is offensive. If it was a one-off, and I felt comfortable with talking to Maria, I’d go to her and let her know that the comment she made come across as being very inappropriate and since she probably did not mean offense you wanted to let her know. Once you added the other comments it seems more like a pattern. So if you did want to bring it up to HR or upper management, I think the pattern would be the key. You wouldn’t need to name the recipients, but just listing the comments you mention above should be enough to get a reasonable boss or HR person’s attention.

    2. Alex*

      I think you should say something, especially about the pattern. But even if it was a one-off, I think you should still say something.

      I would tell Jane, “I’d really like to say something to management about Maria’s comment. I know that you don’t want to make a big deal about it, and I understand, so I’m happy not to mention that the comment was about you specifically. But this kind of environment is not OK, and I feel that I have to say something.”

      I wouldn’t frame it as “fighting Jane’s battles.” Why is it her battle? I would argue that, as a white person, this is more YOUR battle. Racist behavior is not a black person’s problem to fix.

    3. LGC*

      I get your concerns, but…you actually do have some standing. You were offended by Maria’s comment (I’M highly offended by it and I don’t even work there), and more importantly it’s part of a pattern that Maria has of making highly insensitive comments at work.

      So, yeah, you can (and SHOULD) definitely bring up the pattern of comments to either Maria’s boss or HR. (Use your judgment.) I’d let Jane know so she’s prepared for any questioning – I’m not sure of the ethnic balance of your team, but you may not be able to keep her totally anonymous.

      On top of that:

      1) keep the focus on your offense, not that Maria said it to Jane. (Same for everything else.) That’s probably the kindest thing you can do.
      2) YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BE OFFENDED BY RACISM EVEN IF YOU’RE WHITE. I’m possibly reading into your comment a little bit too far, but it seems like your hangup is that because you’re not a person of color, you have no right to speak about racial issues.

      Obviously, you shouldn’t speak FOR POC (POCs? Do you even need to pluralize that?) – and if Jane doesn’t want to make a big deal about it, respect that and don’t tell her she should be offended or force her to take action on your behalf. But also – even though the US is becoming a majority “minority” country (and some states are already there), that won’t happen for another 30 years – and whites will remain the plurality for much longer, I think. The best way to be an ally is to speak up when you see injustice, but also to acknowledge your limits in not having that lived experience.

      At least, that’s what this black guy thinks.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      If it were just a weird hair brained one-off thing Maria said, I think you just let it go as ‘foot in the mouth.’
      But it does seem as though this is a pattern with Maria and it should be addressed, either in the moment or with HR if it does not stop. Unfortunately, there are a lot of “Maria’s” out that who in the last 2 years feel emboldened to express their racist and homophobic views in the workplace. Even worse, when called out on it, they claim ignorance and they were just “kidding around.” Wrong.

  190. JJ*

    I’m a little late but hopefully someone will be able to give me some ideas. I’m hoping to get some advice about how this all should be handled. The scenario and question below are from two different events.

    First Scenario:
    After scheduling an second interview that will be over Webex( out of state employer) with an employer on Thursday, something came up at work and Tuesday, October 9th was no longer my best time for the interview ( Monday is Columbus day) . I let the interviewer know what occurred within the same day and received a reply stating how he would see what could be done about rescheduling an interview on Wednesday, October 10. He added that his office was closed on Monday for a holiday. Since this will be done over Webex, the interview needs to be done while I’m home which is why I want to take leave.

    On Friday, October 5th I attended a funeral for a family friend, so from early morning until evening I have been with family and friends mourning our loss. After checking my email once I got home, I realized that he never sent an confirmation email about the interview being rescheduled.

    Though the interviewer seems to be understanding and flexible. I’m not sure how to handled all of this without coming off as over eager and pushy. I’m worried that Tuesday is still on his schedule and my latest message about my time constraints for the interview were forgotten. I want to send an follow-up either through phone or email on Monday to illustrate that I’ve taken that initiative to contact their office.

    I know their office is closed on Monday for a holiday, however I worry that if I don’t take action they will misinterpret this entire situation. What would you suggest? This is a great opportunity and I don’t want it to slip through my fingers. Yet, I think it sounds odd sending an email on a the morning of an holiday when you know they are not in the office even if i were to end the message with ‘ I apologize for any inconvenience and look forward to hearing from you in the future.’ or start with ” Dear John, I hope your holiday is going well. Could you please let me know if Wednesday works you to reschedule? ‘. At the end of the day, sending an email on Tuesday early in the morning, would look irresponsible to me.

    Second Question:
    Is it a common practice for an employer to send an job invite Friday night and after a national holiday (aka. Columbus day) then have a interview scheduled the following workday morning at 8am?

  191. Jay*

    I’m a little late but hopefully someone will be able to give me some ideas. I’m hoping to get some advice about how this all should be handled. The scenario and question below are from two different events.

    First Scenario:
    After scheduling an second interview that will be over Webex( out of state employer) with an employer on Thursday, something came up at work and Tuesday, October 9th was no longer my best time for the interview ( Monday is Columbus day) . I let the interviewer know what occurred within the same day and received a reply stating how he would see what could be done about rescheduling an interview on Wednesday, October 10. He added that his office was closed on Monday for a holiday. Since this will be done over Webex, the interview needs to be done while I’m home which is why I want to take leave.

    On Friday, October 5th I attended a funeral for a family friend, so from early morning until evening I have been with family and friends mourning our loss. After checking my email once I got home, I realized that he never sent an confirmation email about the interview being rescheduled.

    Though the interviewer seems to be understanding and flexible. I’m not sure how to handled all of this without coming off as over eager and pushy. I’m worried that Tuesday is still on his schedule and my latest message about my time constraints for the interview were forgotten. I want to send an follow-up either through phone or email on Monday to illustrate that I’ve taken that initiative to contact their office.

    I know their office is closed on Monday for a holiday, however I worry that if I don’t take action they will misinterpret this entire situation. What would you suggest? This is a great opportunity and I don’t want it to slip through my fingers. Yet, I think it sounds odd sending an email on a the morning of an holiday when you know they are not in the office even if i were to end the message with ‘ I apologize for any inconvenience and look forward to hearing from you in the future.’ or start with ” Dear John, I hope your holiday is going well. Could you please let me know if Wednesday works you to reschedule? ‘. At the end of the day, sending an email on Tuesday early in the morning, would look irresponsible to me.

    Second Question:
    Is it a common practice for an employer to send an job invite Friday night and after a national holiday (aka. Columbus day) then have a interview scheduled the following workday morning at 8am?

    1. WellRed*

      He replied though and said he’d reschedule, right? Isn’t that a confirmation of sorts? It may be that he hasn’t been able to do that yet. Heck, my whole office cleared out half a day early for the long weekend. At any rate, don’t email him over the weekend.

    2. nonegiven*

      My son was working 10-6 in the central time zone. He got a notice after 6pm his time from a manager on the west coast for a phone interview at 9am. He didn’t make it. He just emailed back after he logged in the next day. (He was an internal candidate.)

  192. Mariella*

    I moved to a new department (yay) however one of my old colleagues whom i am senior to keeps trying to assign me work that falls within their department.

    I sent a firm email stating, thank you for the info but i am not willing to do your (old department) work, so this is something (old department) will have to action..

    I recieved a very interesting email back, stating she thought it was in (new department)’s purview and that she would speak to her manager the next day. And i know she told a senior manager also.

    It is very out of the ordinary for me to be so direct so i have been worried all week, but nothing has been said to me. My old manager has my back because she didnt want me to leave. So im feeling cautiously pleased about it all.

  193. Emily*

    Hey Guys! I’m a recent college grad who’s on the job hunt but I’ve noticed that a lot of jobs now in the creative field be it editing or publicity are on websites where you have to pay to apply to the jobs. I think it’s kind of a scam since there have been millions of people who have gotten jobs without paying for a weekly subscription but I wanted to hear your thoughts.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      It’s a scam if you have to pay the company to apply to their jobs. It’s not (necessarily) a scam if you pay a subscription to a job aggregation website to have access to the job postings. There are free sites (indeed, Glassdoor, LinkedIn) but I don’t know how good they are for your field.

  194. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

    I’m late to the party this week.
    Is it possible that I could completely blindside my boss when I hand my notice in? (I’m not at that stage yet, still only applying for jobs, but I am actively looking)
    I don’t think I’m at all subtle that I am unhappy at work – it’s almost a running joke on my team. Plus I applied for (but was unsuccessful) an internal secondment position, the conversation surrounding which did include a discussion about what I would do when the secondment ended as my original (current) position “may not be available”. I think that was a veiled threat – and I gave the wrong answer when I said I had taken that into consdieration and was not withdrawing my application. However, since I was unsuccessful, and I haven’t made any further noises about moving on (the one thing I think I AM being subtle about), my boss may think she’s successfully callled my bluff.
    So, am I going to blindside her? Is it possible for managers to be THAT clueless?

    1. Alianora*

      It’s a running joke that you’re unhappy at work? Very unlikely that it would surprise her.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Among the rest of the team, yes. The team actively and openly acknowledge that when she has a vacation, I get a vacation, and a chance to get my day job done; that my life is much easier and I’m happier when she’s not in the office. But I don’t remember it ever happening when she’s in earshot, so I wonder how cluelss she is – some of the things my team mates have said out loud have been quite ascerbic – I’m not that overt.

  195. Y.*

    Hi everyone,

    I wrote a question in to AAM about an awful boss I had a while back. That person was nominated for being the “worst boss of the year” by other people (not Alison) in a couple of threads. I eventually got out of working for them, but when I was trying to leave that job, I ran into an interviewer who asked me why that boss fired me. I looked them up and it turns out that my awful boss and the interviewer went to college together and were friends. I’m assuming the interviewer spoke to my awful boss beforehand, and the boss lied and said I was fired. I brought that to our company’s HR and they formally reprimanded him. Since then I’ve gone on with my life.

    Unfortunately, this awful boss is back. Apparently my current company didn’t get around to doing background checks until I’d been here for a month. HR wants to meet with me first thing on Monday morning to discuss my employment history.

    My question is: what do I do? I saved both my severance agreement with this company, plus the emails where I reported my suspicion that the awful boss was lying about me and that company’s HR told me the awful boss been disciplined, though I’m not sure if I can share those. plus information from The Work Number, but the work number only says I was “terminated”. My worry there is that I can’t share my communication with my old company’s HR that shows that a) I resigned when I got a new job and was not fired, and b) that my old company’s HR had enough evidence that my awful boss was lying about me to other employers they decided to give him a formal warning (remember, not hard evidence but very coincidental).

    The best case scenario is I bring the severance agreement and emails from in and “exonerate” myself from “lying” about my job, but I’m very worried I could be fired on Monday.

    Thanks for your advice.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Bring it all! If you have a severance agreement that should be more than adequate. I can’t see why you would be forbidden to disclose any information in your possession that is not affected by a written confidentiality agreement.

      1. Y.*

        Unfortunately, the severance agreement is. I’m not allowed to disclose the terms.

        I could put my new company’s HR in contact with my old company. They probably wouldn’t disclose that my old boss had been disciplined for lying about me before, but they would at least give the hard facts. If they respond…

        1. Y.*

          The first sentence should be “Unfortunately, the severance agreement is bound by a confidentiality clause.” Sorry.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Late comment: Also, call HR for the old job and tell them to correct this. If they don’t, it might be a good idea to hire an employment lawyer to officially tell them to knock it off.

      1. Y.*

        I spoke to HR in the past. I’ll try again (I say “try” because the first time I spoke to them, they pushed back by literally saying “he wouldn’t do that” until I gave them some evidence), but it’s concerning that he’s doing this again.

        1. He’s still at that company and thinks he can get away with it. That could be for a number of reasons: he’s friends with someone who can cover for him, they didn’t make the warning as serious as they should have, he is valuable enough to the company that they’ll overlook him carrying on a grudge against a former employee (or at least he thinks so), etc.
        2. He’s left that company and doesn’t care. A civil suit would take lots of time and money, and I don’t think he has substantial assets. He was kind of a high roller and he used to brag about not paying student loans because he had friends on Wall Street who’d tell him what stocks to pick. I don’t think if he joined a new company, they’d be liable or even particularly care if he’s getting himself in trouble by lying about people who used to work for him. However I’m not 100% sure on that because I am not a lawyer. I’ll try to schedule a session with one this week.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Alison has previous postw about this. See if you can find it by googling “ask a manager” and “tortuous interference.” She had some good suggestions.

  196. FutureSTEMPhD*

    Are there any women in STEM out there (particularly math, but all are appreciated) who can give me some input on what I’m getting into applying to a PhD program? The current political climate, along with the disgusting presentation that guy gave at CERN this week has me wondering if this career pivot (I’m currently in STEM, but in a more female friendly field) is a bad idea. Am I signing up for discrimination and harassment my entire life? Ahhh.

    1. Close Bracket*

      You are signing up for a lifetime of soft exclusions. Grad school was the first time I started experiencing anything like this. The guys will invite each other out to lunch or happy hour or whatever, go out of their way to make new men in the lab feel part of the group, and just … ignore the women. It’s not deliberate, it’s just like women don’t really exist as people like men do, so they don’t think to include us. If you asked them, they would probably say they included women. I also experienced all the classic things like saying something, having it be ignored, and hearing a man say the same thing and be listened to. You also get a lot of homophily. Guys just prefer other guys. That got really bad in the working world where things like assignments and promotions depended on male bosses who surrounded themselves with male colleagues and hired men.

      It depends a lot on who is in the group and what the group culture is. People come and go over a six year period, and things can change for better or for worse. I had male friends in my classes and study groups who didn’t treat me, or other women, this way. I changed groups, and my new group had 4 women join all at once. The guys who were already in the group were not exclusionary, except for one, and he didn’t socialize with the rest of the group much anyway, but having so many women probably made a big difference.

      This all sounds really depressing, and frankly, it is. Make friends with women outside of work, especially middle aged women who give no fucks and don’t care if they never interact with another man for the rest of their life.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Oh yeah, and the double standard for men’s and women’s behavior is real.

      I’m sorry. I wish I had better news for you.

    3. AeroEngineer*

      It depends a bit, I have had worse and better environments for females in STEM. Having more female colleagues and professors etc will help, but I have found that it still really just depends on the actual people. I have had really really great environments due to the people who made it up, and definitely not great ones, with a similar female to male ratio, but having other female scientists/engineers will help over having the standard male scientists and engineers and the women being more the support staff.

      Find some fun things to do outside of work/studies, I really throw myself into sports training or crafting or another hobby, and really try to push myself to go to training and meetings no matter how bad my day at work was. It helps a lot. I second trying to make friends with middle aged women as well.

      I think as well with all of the political stuff happening in the US that things might not be getting so much better in the next couple of years on a macro scale. On a micro scale, it is really going to depend on the people who make up the group.

  197. NewJobWendy*

    Any cost accountants on here? I am a student and I’ve gotten the same questions wrong twice on our quiz. (You get 2 attempts). I am obviously failing to understand something about how these accounts relate to each other. I’ve emailed my professor but she doesn’t check email on the weekends.

    Question 9:

    Given the following information, what is the total amount of prime costs? Direct labor $ 30,000 Factory overhead 20,000 Total manufacturing costs 106,000 Cost of goods manufactured 92,000

    Possible answers: a) 72,000 b) 56,000 c) 76,000 d) 86,000
    Wrong answers: a and b. So we know it’s either C or D but I don’t know how to get either of those.

    My second attempt solution was 72,000 – here’s my thought process:

    Prime costs is the sum of direct material and direct labor.
    Cost of Goods Manufactured is the sum of direct material, direct labor, and factory overhead. We have 3 of the 4 pieces:

    92,000 = X + 30,000 + 20,000. Solve for X to get a direct material cost of $42,000.

    Prime cost is the direct labor at 30,000 plus our direct material of 42,000 = 72,000

    But this is marked wrong. What am I missing???

    Question 19:

    If cost of goods manufactured is $ 200,000, work in process ending is $ 30,000, work in process beginning is $ 25,000, overhead is 40,000, and direct materials are $ 90,000, what is the direct labor amount?
    Possible answers: a) 70,000 b) 75,000 c) 65,000 d) 125,000
    It is NOT A or D. So it’s either B or C but I arrived at an answer that isn’t event shown as an option. Showing my work below:

    You know the your work in process T accounts has debits of:
    Beg Debit Bal 25,000
    Dir Labor X
    Dir Materials 90,000
    Overhead 40000

    and an ending Debit balance of 30,000, the credit to finished goods at the end of the period.

    So sum up 25000+90000+40000 + Direct Labor – CREDIT = 30,000 DEBIT BALANCE
    155,000 + Direct Labor – CREDIT TO FINISHED GOODS = 30,000
    155,000 + Direct Labor – CREDIT – 30000 = 0
    125,000 + Direct Labor – Credit = 0

    Cost of Goods Manufactured is the sum of direct material, direct labor, and factory overhead. We have 3 of the 4 pieces:

    200,000 = 30,000 + Direct Labor + 40,000
    Direct Labor 130,000

    Plug that into our equation above: 125,000 + 130,000 – X = 0
    X = 255,000

    Balance our T account:

    25000 (Beg. Bal)+130000(Direct Labor)+90000(Dir Mat)+40000(Overhead)-255000(transfer to finished goods) = 30,000

    So…..clearly I am not understanding something because Direct Labor = 130,000 is not a possible answer on the multiple choice test

    1. 653-CXK*

      I think for Question 9 you would have $86,000. I’m not an accountant but this is how I worked it out…

      EQ 1 (Labor + overhead costs): Direct Labor (DL) + Overhead (OV) = $30K+$20K = $50K.
      EQ 2 (Manufacturing vs. labor & overhead): Total Manufacturing Costs (TMC) – EQ 1 = $106K-50k = $56K.
      EQ 3 (Cost versus items in EQ 2): Cost of goods (CG) – EQ 2 = $92K-56K = $36K.
      Prime cost = EQ 1 + EQ 3 = $36K + $50K = $86K.

    2. Enough*

      Also not an accountant. So here goes.
      #9 total manufacturing costs – overhead $106,000 – $20,000 = $86,000
      #19 I don’t know what the significance of process beginning and process ending but here’s how I get one of the answers you didn’t.
      Cost of goods – overhead – material cost + (process ending – process beginning
      $200,000 – $40,000 – $90,000 + ($30,000 – $25,000) = $75,000

      My problem with these problems is from the two questions that cost of manufactured goods in each question doesn’t seem to represent the same thing.

      1. NewJobWendy*

        Thank you both for your help!

        Cost of manufactured goods is always the sum of Direct Materials, Direct Labor, and Factory Overhead, so it’s not representing different things in each question. But I think your equation for #19 is spot on because some amount of Direct Labor is going to stay in Work in Process and some about is going to transfer out to be included in cost of goods manufactured.

  198. AdminX2*

    In case anyone wants an update on my non work alt event committee issues- two weeks ago the lead asked to talk directly to me and give some time to the guy who insulted me/had a family member die. I said no problem and heard nothing back. Finally after an email and a text the lead connected to talk in which I found out
    – insult guy apparently has done this to everyone around this time of year…with no rebuke, and unsurprisingly seems worse this year
    – is considered and accepted to be a “diva”
    – lead really wants me to stay and expand in the group in the future

    The lead REALLY wanted me to accept this rug sweeping and act like it was just “how he is” but I insisted as long as SOMETHING was said to insult guy that it was not cool then I would be cool. He agreed he would say something in private, though I have no hopes it will be anything strong or deterrent.

    It’s sad when people enable “superstars” rather than strong leadership and I really do appreciate the others see him being insulting and agree with me while also wanting me to be more active. But that doesn’t change the fact that they have and will allow this to continue. I’ve also discovered there’s an insane amount of personal entanglements between almost EVERYONE on the group and that really never leads to good in the long term. I plan to just do the job as well as I can and politely step back when the event is over.

Comments are closed.