open thread – November 30-December 1, 2018

by Alison Green on November 30, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Poly Anonasaurus*

    OK So this is new and scary. My partner and I opened our relationship up to poly this year, and now I have a spouse and another partner.

    Also, I’m queer and have a long history with closets. I hate them, and am not willing to be in one – or force my new partner into one around me.

    I’m not planning to “come out” at work, because it’s not necessary to talk about my relationships there, especially since we don’t have any partner-friendly events. However, we have a very small, active community, and I could see coworkers being at some of the same events I’m at with one or both partners. (Conventions, concerts, theater, etc.)

    Do I have to address this? I don’t want anyone to think I’m cheating, but I also don’t want to discuss my private life with them.

    Also, anyone else in this boat have a story to share? I have a good, small community, but it feels kinda lonely out here.

    1. Zip Silver*

      It doesn’t sound like you need to bring it up if you don’t want to. Nobody’s going to think you’re cheating just by being in public with somebody unless you’re big into PDA.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      One blog that I’ve heard mentioned time and time again the poly community is More Than Two dot com.

      It’s the Ask a Manager of the poly community.

      Outside of that, I haven’t a story but offer support and a wish of good luck!

    3. PlatypusOo*

      I just recently quit a job partly because my supervisor started a poly lifestyle and she talked about it non stop. If I were you I wouldn’t act as if your poly life is a secret but I also I wouldn’t go out of my way to bring this up at work. It’s a fine line between revealing too much and unhealthily keeping things to yourself-a line most people can’t seem to manage. In my experience after observing people’s reactions to my former bosses revelations most people do not react well to this unusual kind of relationship. And I work in the entertainment industry! In a “normal” office environment this might be way too much.

      1. Poly Anonasaurus*

        Oh my goodness, I couldn’t imagine having to hear about my supervisor’s romantic life all the time, poly or not!

        Thanks for the read on your coworker’s reactions….that’s kind of what I’m expecting from mine, in some form or another. You confirmed my initial instinct. I don’t want to hide….but I’m also the only openly queer person in the office, and I don’t want to make myself even more of an outsider.

      2. anon for this one*

        Would you have quit if a boss had entered into a hetero relationship and talked about it non-stop as well?

        Honestly, no one wants to hear about their coworker’s sex lives, but the LGBTQA+ community is constantly told that revealing anything about their “unusual kinds of relationships” is revealing too much, so I push back on the idea that someone can’t talk about their queer relationship at work because people might not react well.

        Straight people don’t have to worry about bringing up their relationships at work and queer people shouldn’t either, even if that relationship is something not super common.

        If OP doesn’t want to talk about it because it’s her private life, they don’t have to, and if they want to keep it private because they’re concerned about being the only queer person in the office, that’s completely legit. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that their relationship is unusual and imply that normal people don’t want to hear about it because they’ll think it’s weird. That’s just forcing people back into the closet.

        1. Drea*

          Polyamory isn’t queer, though, so I don’t think this is a fair comparison. It can be, but the majority of the poly people I’ve ever met are not.

          1. Lily Evans*

            Thank you! I’m so tired of people automatically categorizing any relationship that falls even slightly outside the realm of what’s considered standard as LGBT+. Polyamory is its own thing. BDSM is its own thing. Yes, they can intersect, but it doesn’t always.

            1. Wintermute*

              I’m with you. It’s a nasty thing because it ties into the whole “LGBT isn’t a core aspect of your life and identity, it’s just another fetish” thing that often means that even well-intentioned and open-minded people can act in homophobic ways.

              It’s not a sex thing, it’s a core-of-who-you-are thing. It’s not just how you structure your relationships and who has power in them the way polyamory and BDSM are, it’s a fundamental difference in how you view the world around you and interact with it.

              1. Working Hypothesis*

                In fairness, polyamory isn’t just a sex thing either; and many poly people say that’s a core element of who they are and how they see the world. It’s not just how they structure their relationships either.

                Most people I know who are both poly and queer regard both factors as innate orientations which are comparable elements of their identity. I am one of the exceptions (I’m both polyamorous and queer, and consider *neither* a core element of my identity), but I recognize myself as unusual in this.

                1. Wintermute*

                  You are correct, I meant more especially comparing LGBT+ and Polyamory with BDSM, but even then polyamory is specifically about relationships, and LGBT+ goes way beyond that, though I think you hinted at a further complication which is separating LGBT orientations and LGBT “co-culture/sub-culture”, because these days there are a lot of people with LGBT orientations that are not interested nor involved in the culture, and that culture is far from as monolithic as it once was.

                2. Working Hypothesis*

                  Wintermute, I think you’re right about there being more people who are queer by orientation but not part of a “queer community” as their primary social circle anymore; and I think that, on the whole, that is both a good and a bad thing. Speaking strictly for myself, I really miss having a central lesbian community. There are a ton of queer folks where I live, but not much of a central hangout place, or a connected community into which anyone queer is welcome, and I am sorry not to have that anymore.

                  But there’s a good reason so many queer folks *aren’t* centering their social life within the queer community anymore, and that is that they no longer have to. It used to be that if you were openly queer, you *needed* to be part of that subculture, because the mainstream straight communities wouldn’t have you. If you wanted any social life at all, and you didn’t want to be closeted, you went to the one place where you could hold hands with your girlfriend in public without anybody looking down their nose at you, or talk about your plans to buy a house together or get a puppy without people edging away and changing the subject rapidly.

                  By now, thankfully, being queer is mainstream enough that it’s finally possible for people to comfortably chat about their weekend plans with their partner at the office or the local hobby club, regardless of what gender Partner is. That’s great, but it means there’s much less incentive to live strictly within the confines of the queer community, because that’s no longer the only place it is safe to be out.

                  At this point, I think most people regard sexual orientation as an inherent and important part of someone’s identity (just as they regard monogamy/polyamory as being), but not as an encircling environment within which one must live full time. But as one of the old-timers who remember the queer subculture as a central thing in most LGBTQ people’s lives, I do sympathize with the idea that it is one! I’d just more likely say that both polyamory and LGBTQ *are* orientations, and *have* communities/subcultures. Whether any given person with the orientation is also part of the community is their own choice (and to some extent, that of the community, of course), and varies widely by individual.

        2. Steve*

          Life isn’t fair.

          I have friends who are poly and I offhand mention their situation in work and social circles as a way to normalise it (“What did you do this weekend?” “I went to a show with a good friend and their husbands”) – and I get all sorts of confused looks. Generally they are confused, not negative, but poly is still unconventional even within communities which tend to be very LGBTQA+ supportive.

        3. Les G*

          Your point is well-taken, but you’re responding to something other than what platypus wrote. Maybe her boss was straight. Non-normative is not precisely synonymous with LGBTQ in every possible instance, and more to the point, it does nobody any favors to pretend poly and queer are precisely synonymous.

        4. Close Bracket*

          > Would you have quit if a boss had entered into a hetero relationship and talked about it non-stop as well?

          For all we know, the boss’s poly relationship *was* hetero. There are plenty of hetero people in hetero poly relationships. PlatypusOo didn’t mention anyone’s gender.

        5. Alianora*

          Please stop equating polyamory and the LGBT community. They aren’t the same thing, and as Close Bracket said, the boss could easily have been straight.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      >Do I have to address this?

      Absolutely not. Your reasonable coworkers don’t want to know and will feel weird about you telling them. And it’ll just be gossip fodder for the unreasonable ones.

    5. MCL*

      I would also recommend checking out Han and Matt Know It All, which is a podcast that is kind of about responding to advice columns but also has original advice generated by them. They are a poly couple who sometimes discuss navigating being out at work. I believe they also have discussion forums and such on their website, but I haven’t checked that out so much and am not sure how useful that would be.

        1. not really a lurker anymore*

          The forums at Friends of Capt. Awkward might be another source. The boards are heavily monitored there. They’re also fairly quiet so while you will probably get quality answers, there will not be a lot of them.

          1. anon for this*

            Fair warning, though: those boards are REALLY extreme on language policing. I got kicked for “flagrant homophobia” by using a perfectly innocent non-English word that someone else interpreted as being offensive. One. Single. Word.

            (I was reminded of the old story about the guy who almost got fired for using the word “pedagogical” in reference to training, because his supervisor thought it meant something nasty.)

            1. anon also*

              Yep, I spent some time on those boards too but eventually decided to delete my account. I did get some good advice there, but I also had several cases of people obviously projecting their own very messed up personal histories onto my fairly banal roommate/partner/poly disputes, or getting so focused on a minute detail that I never did get any advice about the actual thing I needed help with.

              Just in general, I wouldn’t recommend using any one forum as a benchmark for what’s normal, because they all have their own cultures and their own blind spots. And be very cautious of anyone who tries to convince you that it’s your duty as a queer or poly person to be out to everyone regardless of the personal or professional consequences.

          2. wickedtongue*

            Just a note before you post at Captain Awkward! Apparently the Polynesian community doesn’t love the use of “poly” to mean polyamorous instead of Polynesian, and Captain Awkward (and Friends thereof) respect that and ask that polyamorous people use the full word, not the abbreviation.

    7. SignalLost*

      Heck no you don’t. I would say, if you see someone you know outside of work and you and your partner are holding hands or something, you might want to grab the moment and go say “Jane! I’m so glad to see you! I’ve been telling Partner about my work and I’d love to introduce you. Jane, this is Partner, Partner, this is Jane. Spouse will be mad when they hear they weren’t here to meet you/say hi/whatever.”

      Reading over it, that seems REALLY over the top, but waiting till Monday to cue Jane in that you and spouse aren’t divorced seems like placing too much on it. There’s undoubtedly someone with a better script for it, but naming it in the moment works for me – it helps that my partner’s spouse also has a partner so when we’re all out together it just looks like two couples. When we wind up as a trio, I tend to just say “This is my partner’s wife, Susie. Susie, this is Bob; we do Hobby together.”

      1. Poly Anonasaurus*

        Thank you! I’ll think about this one and see if I can’t put it in my own words. My partner does have a spouse as well, which works really well for us, but she’s rarely around because of work.

        1. SignalLost*

          The line I strive for is “my life is boring and banal on the relationship front, let me tell you about Ye Saga of my car/my sisters/whatever.” Good luck!

    8. Anonymous For This Topic*

      Like you, I’m queer and I was in polyamorous relationships for 20 years. I absolutely didn’t need to bring this up at work and it caused no problems.

      That said, I worked in a nonprofit that openly promoted being conclusive, and when I became good friends with some of my co-workers, I shared about my poly life with those few individuals just because we would socialize outside of work. They are still my friends even though I don’t work there anymore, and none of them ever brought any of this up with our managers.

      I think whether or not to be open about your life is really dependent on your workplace. You have no obligation to share about this if it doesn’t feel safe.

      2. Poly Anonasaurus*

        Thanks for sharking your story!

        I work in a mixed environment – I think there are a few people I could talk to, but not everyone. But we’re also in a far more conservative and religious area than the large coastal city I’m used to. I’ve been burned before by thinking people around here are my definition of inclusive and then discovering a streak of racism or homophobia below the surface. Thinking on that, I think I’ll take things very slow, even if I do eventually end up disclosing to someone privately.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You don’t ever have to address your personal life. However there are consequences both directions. As you pointed out, some may think you’re cheating. Then you’re colored differently in minds who are inclined to be upset by that notion.

      I had a coworker tell me they were poly and I’ll be truthful and tell you I wasn’t interested in knowing, it did create a pit in my stomach and I avoided them socially afterwards to avoid more discomfort. I still worked well with them but I was not nearly as endeared to them.

      Bias does exist and whereas I’m not proud of it, I can’t help but be uncomfortable. I’m extremely private and prude, I loath intimate details outside of my own relationship. I feel the same way if you told me you were a sex worker or danced to pay your tuition.

      1. Forking Great Username*

        I mean…you can help it. You just chose to avoid the person instead of working past your mental discomfort.

        1. Pippa*

          This can be a more complex thing than simple bias, though. Sure, polyamory is an unfamiliar concept for a lot of people, something just becoming publicly recognized and accepted, so some people seem to put it into an older “cheating on spouse” model as a pattern familiar to them. One hopes this is a kind of social lag that will correct with time and familiarity, and I agree that people need to work on their understanding of new-to-them concepts.

          But “learn to accept it” isn’t the answer for all situations, though. I’ve got no prob with all-consenting-equals polyamory, but I also occasionally encounter people whose relationships *could* be described as polyamory but are really a very old traditionally patriarchal pattern of polygyny. I don’t think those are the same thing, and having a negative view of the latter doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Not trying to derail here by introducing a different scenario – just addressing the implication that everyone has a duty to accept all relationship patterns. If Steve tells me about how his sister-wives are devoted to serving him as God intended, I’m gonna think “gross” and not “I need to work past my mental discomfort.”

          And I get that this is a fine line in practice – people love to condemn what they personally dislike. The standard I try to use is “is the viewpoint based on a principle of equality and inclusion, or enforcement of discrimination and inequality?” That, plus you generally have to be civil to people.

        2. Cathy Gale*

          In cases like Pippa describes, e.g. it’s actually polygyny, the women are forbidden to have multiple partners but the men can, I would avoid interactions with that person, just like I would if I suspected they were engaging in other things I find offensive or wrong. I’m sure many readers have had the experience of wanting to avoid [blank] voters after the elections.

      2. SignalLost*

        I feel like classifying a statement like “I have a spouse and a partner” as equivalent to graphically detailed descriptions of sexual acts is insulting and very much under your control. Unless, of course, you also don’t want to know that your married coworkers are married, or that they have biological children (sex is what makes a whole lot of babies), or any other surface-level fact that could suggest your coworkers are not Ken dolls. Equating poly with sexual acts is not accurate, unkind, and biased verging on bigoted. You don’t have to be poly (or gay or lesbian or trans or queer or or or) to respect that coworkers have different lives, and stating that you felt so much harm over someone sharing a very surface detail is an interesting thing to state.

        1. Lily B*

          I don’t really care what my coworkers do in their personal lives, but saying something like “I have a husband and a boyfriend” is soooo not on the same level as “I have kids.”

          1. Amtelope*

            It really is exactly on the same level as “I have a husband” or “I have a boyfriend.” It’s a basic biographical fact about who someone is dating. It’s not a graphic description of someone’s sex life.

          2. SignalLost*

            Yes, actually, it is. It is of exactly the same importance: it is a biographical fact about someone.

      3. Joielle*

        This is… not great. I hope you aren’t sharing this story as an example of a co-worker’s legitimate discomfort, because it’s not legitimate at all. We all have biases, true… but instead of recognizing and working on them you just go “ew! something weird!” and avoid the person. Being a sex worker or stripper are also things we should all work to eliminate biases around.

        My opinion is that of course, if anyone talks about their spouse/partner/whatever excessively, that’s gonna be annoying no matter what the relationship looks like. But a mention of “my spouse” and “my partner” now and then – at a similar frequency and level of detail as anyone would share about a significant other – is perfectly normal. No need to hide it if it would naturally occur in conversation!

        1. Lily B*

          Different people are allowed have different values. Being a professional means you work effectively and respectfully with all different kinds of people, but it doesn’t mean you have to be their best friend or approve of all their decisions.

          I mean, if the VP of my division told me he was moonlighting as a Thunder Down Under dancer…I’d probably be pretty uncomfortable. Sometimes politely avoiding people is the best solution for everyone!

      4. General Ginger*

        Am I understanding this correctly, knowing that a person other than you is in a relationship, or relationships, is on the same level to you as knowing they’re a sex worker? Wow.

          1. nonprofitnancy*

            Sex work is work. Period.

            As long as your coworker is not oversharing details, simply stating that they do/have done sex work should not be treated as stigmatizing or dirty. Just because you would not make a certain choice does not mean that choice is wrong or bad.

            1. Starbuck*

              It shouldn’t be stigmatized, but also, it really shouldn’t be normalized as just like any other job. I don’t know of any other occupations where women are abused in such high numbers, and that’s a big deal. If someone told me they were a sex worker, I wouldn’t be judgmental of them but would be extremely concerned about their working conditions and welfare.

                1. Working Hypothesis*

                  Anecdotal evidence noted, but doesn’t override statistics.

                  Let me be clear: I don’t have any objection to sex work or the people who do it, and I am not trying to support any claims about it being different in some qualitative way from any other job. I don’t think it *is* qualitatively different from any other job. But I also don’t think that “I personally did X and was never abused” is statistically significant evidence of anything.

                  Sex work is work, period.
                  The plural of anecdote is not data.

          2. General Ginger*

            To me, it’s just work. However, given the rest of the comment, I’m guessing this commenter finds it objectionable.

    10. Miss Wels*

      I’d definitely recommend keeping it to yourself. We had a staff member here who actually sent out an email to everyone she worked closely with letting us know she was polyamorous and queer and not to be confused if she talked about other partners besides her husband, and no one cared about her identity but felt super uncomfortable that she was discussing her sex life in the workplace. Meanwhile, we have other staff members who I know are poly because I have socialized with them outside of work, but they keep it to themselves and act professional and no one thinks any differently of them, though we do live in a super liberal area.

      1. Poly Anonasaurus*

        O.O
        OMG. I couldn’t even imaging doing that when my spouse and I got engaged! But then again, I’m not about the spotlight AT ALL.

        Even outside of work, I’m less interested in talking about my sex life (ick!) than being able to talk about a partner I see 2+ days a week, go on trips with, and have an emotional, romantic relationship with….but I don’t need that at work, either.

        1. Lily B*

          Could you describe just describe that person as a “friend”? As in, “Oh, I love Montreal! My good friend Clarissa and I went there on a skiing trip last spring!” Or “I went out to dinner with my husband and our friend Fergus on Saturday.”

          That way, people can read between the lines if they want to, or not.

          1. Amtelope*

            Would you recommend that someone who has a single boyfriend or partner describe them as a “friend” if they’re not married? If not, then it’s not okay to ask someone with a boyfriend and a husband to describe her boyfriend as “her friend.”

              1. Amtelope*

                That’s fine as a personal choice, but I think most people are working in environments where it’s very common for unmarried monogamous people to use terms other than “friend” to refer to their romantic partners, and poly people should feel free to use those terms as well.

            2. Alice*

              If the person with one partner were asking my advice on how to avoid discussing relationship status at the office, yes.
              Of course, I’m responding to your hypothetical, not to the specific situation that the OP describes.

            3. ket*

              For better or for worse, the Smithsonian magazine described Tessa Thompson as Janelle Monae’s friend in their profile of Monae, probably to keep word count down. Many straight people would describe someone they’re in a sexual or romantic relationship with as a “friend” if they didn’t want to get into details. If you’re talking about a weekend activity with someone who will react to “boyfriend” or “girlfriend” or “fiance/e” with discomfort or unnecessary interest, you would often say friend.

              “Ooooohhh…. I didn’t know that you and Lesley were…. together! So. Um. How is that? How serious are you? Do you think you’ll stay together? How does that work with, you know, … What does your family think?” Yeah. If *that person* is lying in wait to ask a lot of questions, just say friend!

              1. Amtelope*

                Tessa Thompson has said she and Janelle Monae are not a couple, so “friend” is probably the simplest thing to say there — I’m not suggesting that people need to go into long explanations when the reality is “it’s super complicated.” But when a queer woman has a girlfriend or partner, for a magazine to describe her as a”friend” would be a classic example of homophobia.

                As a lesbian, I’ve used “friend” in cases where I felt unsafe being out of the closet. But the choice to say “friend” isn’t comfortable or neutral. It’s a compromise with the reality of prejudice and the potential danger of accurately describing our relationships. It’s something I might do to avoid being fired or physically threatened. It’s not something I would choose to do at this point in my life merely in an attempt to avoid “a lot of questions.” Other queer people 100% get to make their own choices about when to use “friend,” but unless you’re queer yourself, please don’t recommend this as a strategy — we know it’s an option, but choosing to use it is not easy or simple.

          2. Poly Anonasaurus*

            Technically, sure. Particularly for casual relationships of less than a year.

            But this is problematic for me as a queer person, especially once relationships grow. As a teenager, I had a teacher who was in a relationship with another woman for decades. This teacher was involved in after school programs, so I knew her for years, and she only mentioned this other woman on occasion – always as a roommate or friend. That friend would come with her on overnight field trips to help chaperone, and sometimes come to other events, but she wasn’t welcome as a partner or spouse. For years.

            Of course we all read between the lines. I know poly & queer aren’t the same, but I’d feel like I was slipping backwards 20 years to call a partner a friend, though.

      2. Marthooh*

        But was this woman talking about her sex life? It seems she just wanted to keep her relationship status clear.

          1. General Ginger*

            What would they say? Straight and monogamous is treated as default. They would have no need to send out such an e-mail.

            1. SignalLost*

              I actually think sending the email was a poor choice only from the standpoint that if you feel comfortable telling your coworkers that, you can do it in the moment just as easily; it’s not about defaults. But I can’t imagine using email as a forum for anything about my relationships short of a name change on marriage.

    11. Psyche*

      If you feel no need to “come out” but don’t mind them knowing, you could always just introduce your boyfriend to them if you happen to meet them while out.

    12. merp*

      Just chiming in to say that it’s wonderful to hear about polyamory (and its practicalities) being mentioned by folks in this online space like you. I’m… new to it and I think kind of bad at it, lol. And it still feels like a Big Weird Thing, but hearing others talk about it makes it less big and weird in my head.

      1. Poly Anonasaurus*

        <3 <3 <3
        SAME. Exactly. I'm really happy with how many people are or have known poly people, even in relation to work….it makes me feel less alone.

        1. Jill of All Trades*

          You certainly are not alone. I think there’s a decent amount of poly readers of AAM.

          I choose not to bring it up to anyone I work with until I have vetted whether or not I feel they can handle the information in a way that won’t be damaging to me or my career. I just don’t talk about our girlfriend at work and restrict information I share to light conversation about my nesting partner.

          It does help for work and random questions that our girlfriend lives a few states away (though it sucks for pretty much every other reason).

        2. merp*

          And it reminds me that yes, there are plenty of solutions to things that feel hard to figure out! Lots of poly folks have figured them out and live happy lives so when I feel sort of confused about my own feelings or something, it’s a good thing to remember.

    13. Clawfoot*

      I am poly, and have told a few people at work, but they are relatively close work friends. The biggest reaction I get is a fascinated “I HAVE QUESTIONS” kind of thing, which I absolutely don’t mind. Mostly around scheduling. (The answer is always “Google Calendar.”)

      Somewhat related, and a kind of funny story, before I was poly I was married to and worked in the same office as a man who used his first name professionally and his middle name with family & friends, so the two names became totally interchangeable for me. I messed up a few times and told obvious-partner-anecdotes about “Steve” (when everyone knew my husband as “Kevin”). I was pulled aside by one co-worker who conspiratorially asked “Does Kevin know about Steve?” As tempting as it was to play with it, I did reassure them that Kevin and Steve were one and the same person. :)

      My advice is to just tell who you want to tell and continue living your life. If someone notices something they weren’t told about and asks you about it, just be matter-of-fact. So long as you’re not claiming multiple partners on your company benefits, you’re not doing any illegal or anything that’s anyone else’s business.

      1. Daphne*

        In my department was married to a Kevin/Steve. I shared an office with her mother-in-law but didn’t work with her directly. Her mother-in-law always called him Kevin. She came into our office was talking about finally getting a date night with Steve. I was so confused, but I wasn’t going to confront her. I thought it was strange that she would talk about Steve in front of Kevin’s mother. At the end of the visit, the mother-in-law clarified that Steve and Kevin were the same person. (I wouldn’t have cared if she was poly. If she was, I am sure her mother-in-law would have said something about it.)

        1. Your name here*

          We are good friends with a guy whose given name is Frank. For some reason his mother (and his wife) always called him Jimmy and when we met him he was Jim to us. The rest of the world knows him as Frank. We were once at a meeting and I called out “Jim” to get his attention. Another attendee quietly pulled me aside to advise his name is Frank. We had a good laugh when I explained the situation. Lately we’ve dubbed him Jank.

          1. Decima Dewey*

            There was a guy in my high school class whose first and middle names were Joshua Clay. He went by both, and some teachers thought Josh and Clay were identical twins.

      2. Srah*

        Slightly off topic, but Re: using Google Calendar for scheduling: is this just default calendar things, like “Friday – Michael and Sally dinner 6pm”, or do you do something else, maybe involving home chores or making sure events/days/whatever are evenly (or equitably) split? I have never used Google Calendar and our life org needs help!

    14. Manders*

      I’ve got a lot of poly friends and I live in a liberal city where most people have at least heard of polyamory. My advice: wait until you’ve been in a relationship with your partners for a while, maybe a couple years, to decide whether to disclose to your colleagues.

      For a lot of people, that initial stage of opening up a relationship can be a bumpy ride, and the first new partner they have may not be one who sticks around for months or years. The folks I know who really botched the poly at work conversation were the ones who told their coworkers about every single person they were casually dating. The ones who managed to gracefully disclose at work were the ones who waited for a while before talking about their long-term partners.

      If a coworker does see you out with your partners before then in some situation where it’s clear that you’re all dating instead of just going out with friends, just explain calmly and don’t treat it like it’s a huge deal. I really doubt your coworkers will immediately jump to assuming you’re cheating.

    15. CTT*

      Echoing what people here are saying about not having to come out as poly, although I have one caveat/story: a coworker told me she was poly after I mentioned that I was getting into online dating. Since I knew her very well and had spent some time with her then-husband, she wanted to let me know what their situation was in case I came across him on a dating site. I think if you run into a situation where you’re already close with someone at work and are concerned that they’ll be worried if they get the wrong impression, then proactively address it; otherwise, it’s your private life and you can keep it private if you want.

    16. Alli525*

      Could you switch over to calling both of your partners “my partner,” rather than “my spouse and my partner”? That way no one will think twice – they’ll just assume that you hang out a LOT with your one partner. I hope that doesn’t feel like going anywhere near a closet – if you say “my spouse” once in a while no one will think anything of the fact that you normally say “partner.”

      And echoing what others have said about PDA when you’re at events… it’s easy enough to explain holding hands/hugging, but kissing your partner (assuming your spouse is known to your coworkers) might be too far unless you’re in a more secluded area… it’s just about how much you’re willing to risk.

      (disclaimer: I’m not poly, but several of my friends are)

    17. Public Health Nerd*

      Poly here, and I think the thing to know is that almost nobody cares about this as much as you are worried about. Just act like it’s non- news. Coworkers care more about who you are than who you do it with. They want to know that you took an underwater basket weaving class, not who went with you. Most seccondary partners don’t want to go to company social events. If they do want to be your plus one, you can always say that Spouse wasn’t able to make it, this is Other Person who agreed to be your date for the evening.

      Someday, if you all end up living together, you may need to come out more formally to the people who actually do want to know about your family. But that’s a long way away.

      Everything else is the possibility of seeinng your coworkers at random social events in your community. As long as you’re not actively making out with your other partner, most coworkers will just assume that you’re out with a friend. You have no responsibility to tell people what’s happening at random public places.

      If you’re nervous about it in general, one of the things that can be helpful is to talk about your other friends in daily conversation. Having a general narrative that you have man and woman friends sets the stage that Brand New Guy/Girl isn’t noteworthy beccause you have other male/female friends.

      I did share my status with a close friend at work, but I knew she was mature enough not to make it a Thing.

      1. Rainy*

        Seconding this. I spent my early dating years until my late 30s as a polyamorous person, and in general nobody cared. I wasn’t closeted but most of the time in my workplaces at that point it didn’t really come up much, and when it did I was pretty matter-of-fact about it, which makes it hard for people to try and push a weird shamey agenda.

        And to be honest, because of where I was living at the time, All Alternative Communities Were The Same Community, so anybody who was into *any* of the nonstandard life choices locally knew plenty of polyamorous people, and since my social circles were all nonstandard life choice circles, when I *was* dealing with someone who knew nothing about any of them, it generally turned out that they were the ones who felt really weird and out of place because I was so matter-of-fact about it.

    18. ThatLibTech*

      Funny enough, I was thinking of something similar today because I’m in the same boat! However I’m on the other end (as a solo poly person) and haven’t really brought up significant others yet.

    19. TeacherNerd*

      About 15 years ago, a college classmate mentioned during a random conversation on our drive home (I was giving her a ride), “You know that [live-in boyfriend] and I are poly, right?” I was so surprised, all I could think of saying was something along the lines of, “I did not know that!” Really, absolutely, I didn’t care, but it came out of left field – or at least, since I hadn’t known anyone until that point that was poly, I didn’t recognize the “signs,” or whatever – that I was kinda surprised into silence. My classmate took my silence to mean that I strongly disapproved; she told me later that my reaction caused her to not tell anyone for a long time afterwards. All I could do was apologize; I no longer remember if I mentioned that it was a conversational left turn I wasn’t expecting, and that was the basis of my reaction. I felt badly for my silence – truly, I’m not one who, aside from this reaction, has ever done the “stunned silence” thing before – but at the time it also occurred to me that if she wasn’t quite prepared for a range of reactions, perhaps she should keep it to herself. I don’t care what you do in the bedroom (aside from the usual consenting adults, etc.), but I’m also not going around wondering what other folks are doing.

      1. Poly Anonasaurus*

        Thank you for this, but it’s not about the bedroom…..it’s more about who I go out with, or take trips with, or make big life decisions with. That kind of reduction was used for a long time on same-sex couples whose relationships were seen as all about sex, and the same kind of remarks are one of the big reasons why it’s so hard to talk about it. It’s not only invalidating a poly relationship, but it brings me back to being queer 10 or 15 years ago, when homophobia was so much more normalized.

        You’re right about being prepared for all kinds of reactions, though. I’m definitely not ready for that one yet.

        1. General Ginger*

          Thank you for saying this. I, for one, am exceptionally tired of the “I don’t care what other people do in the bedroom” form of tolerance/acceptance/allyship.

        2. TeacherNerd*

          I’m sorry; I certainly hadn’t meant to imply this. I spoke poorly, and I apologize. I’d meant more of a, “I don’t care what you do outside of work,” which is clearly not what I wrote.

        3. SignalLost*

          Yep. My partner and I are looking st buying a house in the next few years and we will probably be more constrained on our choices because his wife and her partner don’t drive. We are also probably going to have to form an LLC to buy the house so it doesn’t become an asset if he and his wife divorce since he and I are the two who have salaries. In my state, we would have a legally recognized relationship even without marrying except that his marriage presumptively makes it so he cannot enter a significant relationship with me.

          Plus, we want to take vacations and pursue our hobbies exclusive of the other couple, and that takes scheduling and a degree of horse trading. It really isn’t about what we do in the bedroom; it’s the least complicated part of our lives.

        4. ket*

          Makes sense that it’s not about the bedroom, but I too have been in awkward conversations where someone I don’t know particularly well announces something: that they’re asexual or poly, for two different examples. In the examples I’m thinking of, I’m older-and-related-to-the-family-enough that me being involved in any of their romantic relationships would be totally ludicrous; I’m not close enough to them to know what kind of struggle they might have had or what they want as a reaction; and I’m maybe kind-of Aspie myself. So my initial reaction is, “Why do I care?” and then these days I remind myself that they told me for a reason & are probably sort of scared so I should make approving noises to indicate that they’re supported.

          Prior to figuring that out, though, I responded with something along the lines of, “That’s cool. Do you know when dinner’s starting? Do I have time to run to CVS?” This is not interpreted as supportive, I found.

          Besides being internally prepared for many reactions, perhaps you can have a line ready for the person who wants to give you the support/response you need but has no idea what the ideal response would be. You can guide them in the direction that would be best for you.

      2. Manders*

        This is a great point! If an awkward reaction is going to tank your confidence, maybe it’s not time to talk about this at work yet. Don’t let your feelings about your relationship ride on your colleagues’ potential reactions.

    20. auntie polly*

      I hear what you’re saying about your reactions to anything that feels like closeting. It’s important to listen to what your partners say about how those things feel to them, too – it might not be exactly the same. For example, if your boss passes your restaurant table unexpectedly, and you say “Oh, hi, Mx Boss. You met Pat at the Christmas party last year (pause for first partner to shake hands with boss), and this is Alex, Alex this is my supervisor Mx Boss (pause for second partner to shake hands with boss)” (adjust formality as needed.) – does that feel too closet-y to you? How about to either of your partners?

      Also, keep in mind that how you feel and how your partners feel might not be completely consistent day-to-day and depending on who it is you’re running into. Someone who feels insecure about a r’ship in other ways might be more inclined to be hurt by how you do/don’t talk about them to your co-workers – even in the example above, maybe you used to introduce Pat as partner or spouse, and today you didn’t – not a big deal in theory, but this weekend Pat’s feeling left out by all the NRE and hasn’t really communicated that … be gentle with each other when your gut-reactions don’t match.

      My own experience is that most people don’t have suspicious minds and just want to map what they’re seeing to something reassuring. “No, Pat wasn’t with me at the concert last night. Pat had a migraine. That was Alex, who introduced us all to that kind of music. Wasn’t it good?”

      My advice and examples are all coloured by being of a generation/culture/family where the default was closets first, out where safe. I envy people who grew up rainbows-in-your-face, love me initials and all, but I think it’s too late for me especially in workplaces.

    21. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

      In terms of not being perceived as cheating, spending time in public with both your partners, or with one of them and their other partner, will help you look like you’re not hiding anything (as, indeed, you’re not) If I’m having dinner with my husband and girlfriend, people may think any number of things–but it won’t be “I should tell the Gollux’s husband that she was holding hands with someone else” or “I wonder if her girlfriend knows she’s seeing this guy.”

      Some years ago, my long-distance partner’s wife was out of town on business, and on different occasions he took me and two other visiting riends to one of their favorite restaurants. When she got back and the two of them had dinner there, the staff looked at her oddly, somewhere between pity and “does she know?” but without actually saying anything. So, the next time I was in town, the two of them made a point of going to that restaurant with me, to make it clear that no, my partner wasn’t sneaking around behind her back.

    22. Barb*

      Bring it up briefly and matter-of-factly when relevant. I worked with someone with a live-in husband and live-in partner. I knew about (the concept of) poly, but was never told flat out that she was poly. Co-worker talked about her partner and husband by those titles or names matter-of-factly (not obsessively, just the way one chats about family), but it took me a long time to realize those were two different people. She was actually my superior, so there was a point that I was confused but embarrassed to ask anyone what the deal was, because she was so matter-of-fact and months had gone by at this point. Finally figured it out, and felt relieved that I wouldn’t say the wrong thing anymore. I think she may have actually explained point-blank when she started, but that was long before me.

      I think matter of fact is the way to go. Co-workers you don’t work with closely may get confused, but it’ll be clear that Name is a key person in your life, which is what matters. If you need to causally throw in, “—I’m poly, Spouse is cool with/knows about Partner—“, into the middle of your story, do it! I don’t want too many details about anyone, but this is totally reasonable (and preferable to thinking you’re a shameless cheater!). Poly is just useful basic info, and you have the right to treat it that way. People will follow your lead, at least in the conversation with you.

      I do think “friend” is easier for casual relationships, until it gets more serious. Same for non-poly people, unless you want everyone really up your business (I wouldn’t). If people see you in public, you can give more detail if you feel like it.

    23. valentine*

      There’s a lot of support on Tumblr for welcoming polyamorous people under the queer umbrella. Eschewing the straight-nuclear family, having to hide that, and the state proscribing your relationships makes polyamory queer. If anything, the husband/sister-wives scheme and the fact they can never be synonymous with a wife/brother-husbands structure colonizes polyamory. I hope those of you who said you don’t care/conflate polyamory with untoward sexual details will consider how hurtful/bigoted that is and decolonize your worldview.

      Poly Anonasaurus, do you want to, as a matter of course, mention to your colleagues the fact of your relationships to partner and their spouse? I like SignalLost’s script, but would specify, “Jane, this is my partner, Partner”. More than that, what do you want said when your colleagues see your partner or y’all’s spouses when you’re not there? If Jane says, “Hey, you’re Poly Anonasaurus’s…” can your partner or the spouses say partner/spouse-in-law/spouse? As bigots can punish you either way, as in the letter from the guy who didn’t correct his boss hearing fiancé and assumed fiancée, so you may as well please yourself. What’s going to serve you here? How will you be happiest? Can you live the way you want at this workplace or do you need a different environment in order to speak freely and breathe more easily?

    24. MicrobioChic*

      I’ve been in a poly relationship for the past three years. I’m not out at work, but I’ve told a couple of folks I talk with a lot and that I didn’t think would care.

      One thing that someone I know does is instead of saying “with my girlfriend Name” or “with my friend Name” she just says “yeah I looked at the Christmas lights with Name.” It doesn’t make her feel closeted, and she doesn’t have to go into long explanations either.

  2. Namast'ay in Bed*

    What’s your opinion on taking a lunch break even if lunch was provided in a meeting?

    I’m someone who tends to eat lunch at their desk and then take my lunch break to run errands or go for a walk, so if I have a midday meeting or training that they bring lunch for, even though I’ve eaten I’m of the mind that I still get my break. My office is pretty great about “as long as the work gets done, manage your time as you see fit” so this is more of a hypothetical, but I’m curious if others feel the same way.

    Oh and this is a standard, non-hourly, non-billing office job, so no hours to account for.

    1. Dragoning*

      I’m hourly, so I’m legally required to take a lunch break of some sort with my 8-hour shifts…but I know my salaried coworkers don’t function this way (and previous managers have insisted that a provided lunch is the same as a break…which it is not).

      I would ask your boss.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Paid lunch breaks can be provided for hourly employees in lieu of the traditional 30 minutes unpaid, uninterrupted meal time. So there is wiggle room there. (Usual disclaimer that this may be regional but we’re a very employee leaning region and that’s how it works).

          1. Shananana*

            ah, so if you are hourly and were working during the meeting you need to be paid for those hours. Or, you need to take your 30 min unpaid break later. No working meeting lunches that aren’t paid. Assuming you are in the US, that’s the labor law.

        2. Gaia*

          In many states, however, employees have to be free to spend the time as they want or it isn’t really a lunch break. In mine, for instance, even if it is paid if you make the employee stay there it doesn’t count as a “rest period” that is legally required for hourly workers. So when I did “team lunches” I was always clear that this was our team event and, after that, they had 30 minutes to do as they pleased. We’ve had companies get a stern talking to about this by our state labor department recently.

    2. Kay*

      In my last position, I was explicitly told by my boss that lunch meetings (or any formal/informal work event that happened during my lunch hour) did not count as my lunch and I should still take my hour of personal time. She was a big believer in separating our work and personal commitments. In my current role, my boss has not be so explicit and so I handle it situationally (based on the meeting, my workload, other people’s schedules). Definitely prefer when I had explicit guidance!

    3. YarnOwl*

      I don’t count lunch meetings as my lunch break. Although I’m hourly so the law about me taking a break is in play.

      But yes, I still take a half-hour break if I get lunch in a meeting. I usually just use it to read in the lunch room or something like that.

    6. CheeryO*

      My opinion is that if it’s a mandatory meeting, you should still get an actual lunch break. I might take a shorter break when I have a lunch meeting, but I still feel like I’m entitled to get out of the office for a bit as long as I’m not needed at my desk.

    7. Kes*

      Personally I’m in a similar environment and I won’t necessarily take another break, but if I do need to run an errand or just get out of the office for a walk I’ll still do so, although I may or may not take as much time as otherwise.

    8. GhostWriter*

      I think if a meal is provided at training or a meeting, it shouldn’t count as your lunch break for the day. You’re probably working or talking in between eating, and you have to be there instead of relaxing or doing your own thing, so it hardly counts as a break from work.

      At my previous job, if we were served food of any kind (including cake at obligatory employee appreciation type events), that counted as our lunch break. My manager sucked in many ways though and other teams had a lot more leeway and relaxed rules, so I have a feeling that might not be normal.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve done both over the years. It depends on if I want an unpaid break or not. I don’t regularly feel the need, especially if I’m in meetings and my work is piling up.

      I would look into the company policy, it’s a very “office culture” kind of thing.

      Hourly workers can run into an issue if they have the (terrible) practice of jusr auto deducting lunch time. If you’re on a punch out for lunch, I assume some may want to have a note in the system for a skipped unpaid lunch or here we have meal time waivers to fill out stating you choose to waive your unpaid break because you have been allotted proper time and ability to eat within your paid work time!

      I worked 10 years only clocking out to leave to get lunch. Then I ate at my desk, I was on the clock, I would answer the odd phone or question from staff who needed me. All my research and classes from the labor department told me that’s totally fine.

      Some places are hard nosed about mandatory breaks to CYA

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      Meeting with lunch? It’s not your lunch break. Take your break.

      Going out to lunch with colleagues? Probably your break… but… when it’s a department (optional) lunch, then I usually take 10 min or so when we get back to spod on aam before getting back into it, and no-one minds as long as work gets finished.

    11. DAMitsDevon*

      At my office, we (full time staff at least) have one hour, unpaid lunch breaks everyday, and the online system we use to keep track of the hours we work, automatically deducts that hour from the work day (if I did work through my lunch break, I could ask my supervisor to adjust my time sheet to make sure I get paid though). If your lunch breaks are unpaid, I’d say it’s more than justified if you want to spend that hour or however long you get running errands, even if you already ate lunch during a meeting. A lot of my coworkers regularly run errands during their lunch break and then come back and eat their lunch while they work.

      Even though lunch break implies that you’re spending the time eating, the emphasis should really be on the break part. Sometimes it is nice to eat your lunch while relaxing and not working, but if you’d rather use your break time to do something else, it shouldn’t be a problem if you’re getting all your work done/not taking breaks that are too long.

    12. CRM*

      If the meeting is a social event (such as a holiday party) or related to something that is not strictly work-related but work-adjacent (such as a volunteer committee), then it probably counts as your lunch break. Otherwise, I’d say you are fine to take your break separately.

    13. Goya de la Mancha*

      Hourly here, and we get a half-hour “duty free” lunch. So if it’s a work meeting, that’s not duty free and we still get our time. Sometimes our boss will buy lunch just for kicks and we’ll sit together to eat. On those days I don’t take another lunch because it was more a morale boosting thing and it usually goes well over a half hour ;)

    14. What's with Today, today?*

      My boss calls these “eating meetings,” and, if he is paying for the food, that is the lunch break.

    15. LurkieLoo*

      If I had errands to run, I probably still would. I (personally) feel like a lunch meeting is enough of a break from the regular grind if it’s more like chit chat and less like functional work going on. I could totally go either way, but wouldn’t think less of a person who took a lunch in addition to lunch. Unless it became a problem in the sense that you’re now away from your desk 2+ hours frequently and it hampers productivity.

    16. Gaia*

      Lunch meetings, to me, are not a break. If I normally take a lunch (I am salaried and often don’t) then I will still take a “lunch” although I might shorten it a bit.

  3. Dean Learner*

    How can I feel less disconnected from my coworkers? I started a new job about 6 months ago, and overall I really like it. While I find it easy to talk to my coworkers before/after meetings and in social situations, day-to-day I feel very disconnected. On a no-meeting day, I can go the full day without really talking to anyone. My job doesn’t interact with my coworkers on a daily basis and doesn’t overlap duty-wise with the majority of my coworkers’ jobs. What’s more, my office (in a cubicle area of about 12 cubes) is all the way in the back and my desk faces the wall. Everyone else in the cubicle area talks about work-related things, or says hi when they walk by a co-worker’s cube, which then evolves into friendly chit-chat and conversations. No one ever walks by my cube because I’m all the way in the back, and I get to work earlier than everyone else so I’m already in the office by the time others arrive. I’ve talked to my supervisor about moving my office closer to the front of the cubicle area, but that won’t happen for another several months.

    I’m worried I’m coming across as unfriendly or unapproachable. I go to every post-work happy hour (that I’m invited to), event, and every monthly luncheon. At those functions, I feel comfortable and conversation is easy and natural. But then the next day I’ll get to work and it’s back to the usual.

    I feel isolated and left out. I also feel self-conscious, because two people have been hired after me and already seem more comfortable and likeable than I fear I’m coming across. How can I feel connected? It feels weird to go up to someone’s cube, interrupting their work, especially if I don’t have anything specific to say to them (other than “hi, how are you?”). That seems awkward and abrupt to me.

    I want to talk to people, and I want people to want to talk to me! I’m trying not to frame this as “why won’t anyone talk to meeee,” but that’s how it feels.

    Any suggestions? Is this all in my head?

    1. ANon.*

      Can you make a point to get up once or twice to walk around to get water/coffee, use the bathroom, etc? Then along the way you could say hi to coworkers. When you pass by someone in their cube and they don’t look like they’re in the middle of something, if “hi, how are you” feels too abrupt, you could try something small like “Hey, I love your [scarf/necklace/tie], by the way.” This may or may not lead to more conversation. But either way it gets you interacting with them a bit more.

      1. Marthooh*

        I was going to say, take the occasional walking-around break. And “It can get pretty lonely back there” is a much less pathetic way of saying “Please somebody talk to meeeeeeee!”

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Put chocolate in a dish on your desk. Your coworkers will start visiting. I have a holiday candy dish on my desk now. Coworkers that never even have a reason to be in my office stop in to say hi and grab some chocolate.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        Oh yes absolutely candy! I get those seasonal dollar pails from Target to fill with a popular candy that I don’t particularly like so I don’t eat all of it in a day. People started stopping by a lot more frequently once they realized that there’s candy!

      3. CastIrony*

        That’s a great idea, but I’d go with something like Smarties or Twizzlers because they seem inoffensive when it comes to most allergies.

        1. CastIrony*

          On a related note, I want a job like that because not talking to people much sounds nice for me right now (I’m the worker who does well, but has never, ever been socially close with their co-workers due to being socially inept.)

          1. Dean Learner*

            Twizzlers wouldn’t work, because I’d eat them all before my coworkers even realized I had them ;)

            I am also socially inept, so I think the hardest part about this is that I’ve been trying to put myself out there by forcing myself ( like sitting in my car hyping myself up to go into the bar for happy hour) to attend these post-work shindigs, and I’m feeling like I’m not getting any long-term return from it. It’s hard for me to see that the anxiety I’m putting myself through is worth it.

            Thank you for responding!!

            1. Jadelyn*

              Are there ever potlucks at your work? That’s one of the places I can get a quick fill-up of social interaction and relationship-reinforcing when I feel the need to. Just pop by the break room, ostensibly to get some food, and there are always a bunch of people in there also getting food, so you’ve got built-in conversation starters as well (exchanging recipes or what have you).

            2. Boredatwork*

              +1 to the candy – fellow anxiety sufferer here – If you put out candy you will make so many friends. The more socially capable people will then talk to you, and give you future talking points.

              You can also consider bringing in food (donuts, ect.) send out an email to your group and the have the flies know to come to you. Again you’re just looking for a talking point to follow up on. Kid sick? ask if they’re better, weekend plans? Was that activity fun, ect ect.

              Your co-workers will actually feel like you’re being warm and friendly if you ask them about something they mentioned, the more child related the better.

          2. Jadelyn*

            I hear you – I’m the Gremlin in the Corner at my office and I genuinely like that. My desk is tucked in the back corner of the big two-person office I share with a coworker. The big window in our wall that looks into the hallway starts just *after* my desk when you’re walking by, so if you don’t stop and turn to face the wall you won’t even see that I’m here. And I’m quiet and fairly introverted, and don’t have a ton of direct interaction outside of my team. When I go to the break room for water or coffee, if someone is in there, fully half the time there will be some comment of “Oh I didn’t even know you were here today!”

            Mostly it’s just funny to me, but I’ll admit it gets a little lonely once in awhile to see people passing by on their way in or out for the day and saying “good morning/night” to everyone and not me. But I figure it’s a small price to pay for some peace and quiet.

            1. Dean Learner*

              It’s funny, I would normally characterize myself the same way – quiet, introverted, and more often than not I would rather hang out with myself than anyone else. I suppose I’m more aware of how I’m being treated differently than everyone else in my cubicle area because I’m still fairly new, plus I have horrible self-esteem and a desperate need for others’ approval (thanks, Mom!).

              It’s reassuring to hear that I’m not the only one in this situation!

              1. Jadelyn*

                The extra context really tells me that this is more a brain-weasels problem than a problem of actually being excluded. (And I say that as someone who has more brain-weasels than I can count.) Your mind is making a connection between “nobody comes by my desk and talks to me” with “therefore nobody likes me” when it’s far more likely to just be a symptom of office layout, and your emotions are taking the beating over that. If you can call that connection into question whenever your mind starts doing that, it might help the feeling of isolation a little.

                1. TechWorker*

                  From your description of how happy hours and social events always go well I’d say it’s very unlikely your colleagues don’t like you! They probably don’t even realise you’d like to chat more.

        2. Akcipitrokulo*

          Smarties aren’t vegetarian though (and also made by nestle ;) ) but agreed, go for something that’s less likely to provoke allergies.

          1. Tricksie*

            I think they meant the US Smarties, which are sugary things like SweetTarts, not the candy-coated chocolates. :)

          1. Alianora*

            Yeah, when I worked as a receptionist part of my job was keeping the candy bowl on my desk filled. I would sometimes ask people what their favorite was and make a point to get that for next time.

      4. Admin of Sys*

        Yes, this! It especially helps if, when folks ask if it’s okay for them to grab a piece, you say something along the lines of ‘definitely! I put [the candy] out so folks come to see me once in a while’ because then folks will actually stay and chat a bit.

      5. Susan K*

        Good idea… You could also take a page out of Dexter’s book and bring in donuts occasionally. That will give you an excuse to go around offering people a donut (or just saying, “Hey, I brought donuts! They’re in the kitchen if you want one.”).

      6. Clawfoot*

        I was just about to suggest this myself! I was in the same kind of position (got in earlier than everyone, desk at the very back, nobody walks by, etc.), so I made sure to establish my desk as the Office Snack Desk. I have granola bars, chocolate, dried fruit, and other snacks (that keep for a while) in my desk and I encourage people to drop by when they need a pick-me-up.

        The nice thing is that co-workers who often stop by for snacks also help replenish the supply. I will often be visited by frequent grazers who bring me a box of granola bars or a bag of mini chocolate bars to add to the stash.

        Another bonus is that I get to hear about everyone’s snack preferences and favourites (and food allergies), which is handy when I want to bake something or bring something bigger for the office, for a birthday or celebration or whatever.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Would an email to those in your immediate office be out of step with your office culture? I ask because some places would find that an odd way to announce something, but my office sends branch-wide emails to announce when there’s food setup somewhere – our tradition is that whenever possible, birthday potlucks/snacks/whatever are set up in the office or a nearby cube of the person whose birthday it is, so that people have a chance to stop in and say hi and happy birthday while getting their nom on.

          1. Dean Learner*

            That would work really well! I have so much unused space in my office that I could easily have snacks out with room for people to hang around. I’ve thought about bringing in my weekend baking experiments; one of these days I will work up the nerve to bring them into the office. I think, “I’ve been practicing baking and made too many cookies/toffee/whatever, please help me get rid of them!” would work!

            1. LurkieLoo*

              This might be a great way to draw attention to the candy . . . candy jar next to cookies. Easy enough to announce the cookies, people will come back for the candy.

            2. Jadelyn*

              That would be fantastic! I know I’d definitely come out of my isolation cave to get some cookies if someone had them by their desk and sent out an email saying “come get some!” :)

              (Although, tiny word of warning – be careful not to do it every week or on a set schedule, or people will start to expect it, and then they may get upset if you ever stop or pressure you to do more or whatever. We’ve had plenty of letters about people who got sick of being the unofficial office bakery here and seen how wrong things can go when people depend on you for their carb fix!)

        2. Clawfoot*

          Take them around and offer them to people at their desks. Mention that you always have them at your desk if they ever need an afternoon chocolate fix. :)

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I started my new job about 3 months ago and I’ve been trying to be more connected too! My office is in the very back of a library and is half hidden by the hallway, so I understand feeling hidden!

      Some things I’ve tried doing have been getting up and out of my office more (getting more water, taking a longer way back to my office, etc.). It’s been a bit more organic then to run into someone or walk past their office and saying hi. I joined some committees to get more involved and have tried to stay for more after work events. It does take some time, especially if you’re coming from a working environment where you had to hold back and be reserved because of toxicity.

      Continue to be cheerful and maybe make a point to see when others aren’t busy to pop by for a quick chat. I try to make sure I talk to at least one other person a day (outside my direct supervisor). Maybe you could swing by a few people’s cubes before lunch and see if anyone wants to grab something or eat together.

      1. Dean Learner*

        Thank you so much for the suggestions! It’s good to know I’m not the only person struggling with this. I love the idea of having conversation organically happen as I’m walking to a destination (water, bathroom, stretching my legs, etc.). It seems so simple but so effective, and I can’t believe it hadn’t occurred to me before you suggested it! In fact, I just went for a walk about and a coworker and I had a nice talk about our plans for the weekend. Thanks again!

    4. WellRed*

      I can’t believe I am going to suggest this, but can you put up Christmas lights on your cube walls (if you celebrate it) or something that draws friendly attention/chit chat?

      1. Dean Learner*

        No, this is a great idea! I haven’t decorated my office at all yet (like, no pictures or anything). Making my office seem warm and inviting might make me seem warm and inviting by extension! Plus, I am rarely one to turn down an excuse to decorate with fairy lights :)

    5. Kathenus*

      From your description it doesn’t sound like you should worry about being thought of as unfriendly or unapproachable. If at social occasions and before/after meetings you have comfortable and friendly interactions it sounds like it’s more an issue of the physical isolation reducing the chance for the informal chats during the day.

      You’re already trying to take medium/long-term action by working to get your desk moved. You mention being uncomfortable with initiating conversations, even greetings, when walking by others; but you also note that it seems to be the culture that people do greet others walking by their cubes which can then result in the more informal conversations. So you might need to step outside your comfort zone and work on initiating these as you walk from your back cube through the office to the printer, restroom, coffee maker, whatever.

      Watch how others do it to see how to make it feel more comfortable and natural and model your approach on how others are already successfully initiating these interactions. Think of a low-stakes, more social question you could ask some of your coworkers as an icebreaker. “Hi Sue, that’s a great sweater, where did you get it?” “Hi John, what was that restaurant where you got your lunch that you brought in last week, it looked delicious?” Or a work-related question that can be used to start the conversation and then have a more social/friendly pivot – a movie you saw, something funny your pet did, whatever.

      Since you already have comfortable and natural conversations in social work situations, you’re at a great starting place and can probably pretty easily start feeling more comfortable with the informal interactions after you get a couple under your belt.

      I do feel you, though, I’m not good at chit chat with people I don’t feel as comfortable with, and I’ve also seen newer people come into my office and seamlessly join in on conversations where I still feel out of place. So maybe I need to re-read this and try to do it more myself too :)

    6. Kes*

      Do you have an office kitchen/coffeemaker/watercooler that you could visit a couple of times a day, chatting for a bit to people who are there and walking past the cubicles on the way? If not, maybe you could say hi as you walk past the cubicles on the way to the bathroom or just walking around to stretch your legs

    7. Not So NewReader*

      For the moment, can you rotate your desk 90 degrees or turn it all the way around so you face your doorway/entrance area?

      Can you work it into conversation– “well if you are walking around just for a leg stretch or a minute mental break, swing by and visit me allll the way in the back.”

      Or give them reason to contact you, this could be work related or this could just be casual conversation type of thing. “Can you let me know if you find that Old Reference Chart from Long Ago? I would be interested in seeing it.” OR “Swing by my desk on Monday, I want to hear how your dog made out with her new pups over the weekend.” These are kind of little hooks that you can come back to. If the person does not come by on Monday, maybe Monday afternoon, you can go by her desk and say “How’s Momma Dog?” The idea is to look for things you can pick up on later.

      I think they do like you, they just don’t think of going to see you. FWIW, with any new job, I tend to think that the onus falls on me to show more interest than they do. This helps with that disconnected feeling because I end up asking myself what steps I will take today to be more connected. Six months is not that long. I think we need to put in at least a year before we really settle in. Don’t forget the holidays are not helping you here as it is adding to their distraction and their busyness.

    8. Lucille2*

      This was me a few years back when I started my job. I worked in office, but I mainly worked with clients and my boss and peers were either in other offices or worked remotely. I was literally a team of 1 in my office. It was super lonely for a long time, especially since I’m an introvert. Add to that, I worked for LastJob for over a decade, so it was a shock to go from knowing everyone to speaking to no one all day unless it was over the phone.

      Here’s what helped me since I’m not the type to get to know people easily. I joined some network and social groups that had a presence in my local office. There was a women’s networking group, though small, that helped me get to know some women in my office. I also joined an office running club that met on occasion to workout and also signed up for local races together. My office also gets involved in a lot of local charities, so volunteering my time helped me meet other people who support the same causes. I’m hoping your office has similar clubs and activities you can join. Happy hours should help, even if that takes some time. You may find someone casually discussing a work topic you have expertise in and organically build a connection. Then you become the guy who’s an expert in X and get introduced to others who need to pick your brain. Good luck to you!

      1. Dean Learner*

        Thank you so much! These are all great ideas. I also have trouble getting to know people easily, so I appreciate the suggestions. I’m going to poke around for some clubs/activities/groups to join! Thanks again :)

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you’ve got some great suggestions.

      I want to point out that your location is most likely the real issue. They like you but you’re tucked away.

      I had a staffer like that once. I made a point to poke by nose in because as a supervisor, despite her not needing me daily, maybe weekly if that, I wouldn’t leave her hanging. But other staff were wrapped up in their own areas and could easily forget her in daily chatter. She was very well liked for certain.

      I would take a break around times others regularly do and catch up. Also feel free to tell others you like being social, since you’re often in the background and out of sight. They may take the hint to stroll on back sometimes to say good morning.

      I’m sorry you’re lonely and hope your desk moving will fix that stress!

    10. Kelly AF*

      Others have suggested similar things, but — draw people to your desk! Put out a candy dish, decorate… I too am an extrovert sitting in the back of my department, so I feel your pain. What worked for me was putting up a hangman game on my whiteboard — people would regularly come back to play it.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This is a great idea – I have one coworker who puts up riddles on her door once a week, and people do drop by just to see what this week’s riddle is. Another coworker has a chalkboard that he writes sayings and jokes on every day, and people detour by his cube to see the quote of the day.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Something I do for a different reason that might be of interest to you — My desk is in an interior cubicle warren, and the nearest casual conference room has a window. It’s rarely used at lunchtime, so if I’ve taken an early lunch break, I can walk down there with my laptop and get a half hour of daylight. When people start showing up for a scheduled meeting I pick up and head out, saying say “Now back to my cave!” Or submarine or salt mine, whatever strikes me as most humorous at the time.
      The only drawback can also be a plus — I sometimes get asked to attend the incoming meeting. ;)

    13. nonymous*

      Sometimes a coworker and I will have a “walking meeting” where we talk about a specific work project we stroll around the building (or even outside if it’s nice). I’ve had luck with flat out inviting people by IM to join me on a walk to “take advantage of the last sunny day in a while” or “work off those yummy cinnamon rolls the cafeteria serves” followed with the work topic you’d like to discuss. And then on your way back to your desk chat up the people that you pass – better if the chatting can be due to information you learned on the walk.

    14. Dean Learner*

      I know I’m two days late and it’s unlikely anyone will read this, but thank you all so much for your comments and suggestions. They were all extremely helpful and I so appreciate you taking time out of your day to respond to my question <3

  4. Toxic waste*

    When I went for an interview, they asked why I wanted to leave my current position. Can I say that I feel uncomfortable or unsafe? There is a lot of yelling and one of the higher up’s threatened my manager’s life. It’s a mess… It wasn’t directed at me, but I don’t want to work in a place that condones this type of behavior.

    1. dramalama*

      Even when it’s that extreme, I always feel really icky talking bad about my current workplace. I think you could probably sugarcoat it into “not a good culture fit” and only provide the grisly details if they’re really pressing you for them.

      1. Kes*

        Not sure I would say that, I feel like that risks making it sound like OP is the problem/can’t fit in.

        OP, I would probably say some of what you mentioned, but just briefly in a very calm, matter of fact way – maybe just say that there is a lot of yelling and you are looking for a more professional environment.

        1. Lora*

          How about something like, “the job wasn’t what I was expecting / what was advertised”?

          I mean, it wasn’t. You were expecting people to be civil and professional, and they didn’t meet that expectation.

    2. Anona*

      I personally wouldn’t be that honest. I think to many interviewers it would probably be an overshare. I’d say something more like I’m ready to make a change, or am ready for a new opportunity, or something like it’s no longer a good fit. Something less dramatic.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would always avoid bad mouthing your current employer in an interview. People don’t have anyway of knowing if your boss was nuts or your were nuts. You know? So, I would instead go for a non-answer like “My current office isn’t a good fit for me at this time and I’m looking for a place that is more….. whatever.”

    4. irene adler*

      Employers worry that if you are candid about your current employer then you’ll be just as candid about them (should they hire you). So they will judge you on how diplomatic you are regarding your current employer.

      I would think any company with a toxic work environment would give employees concern that the business was not stable. Hence, your reason for leaving would be concerns over not having a job in the near future because the future of the business seems uncertain.

      You can also play up how interested you are in the job you are interviewing for :” saw the ad and had to apply. Job description very intriguing. Thought it could be the perfect fit for me. “

    5. Susan K*

      Something to remember about job interviews is that you are not under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I’m not saying you should lie (you shouldn’t), but you are allowed to sugar-coat certain things. When they ask why you are leaving your current job, they are not your therapist and they don’t want or need to hear about your traumatic experiences at work.

      Remember that every question they ask is ultimately part of the question, “Are you a good fit for this role?” If you say because you feel unsafe, it’s going to make it look like you don’t really care about the new job you’re taking — you’re just trying to get away from your old job. This does not make you look like a strong candidate. The best answer for this type of question is to phrase it as why you are a better fit for the job for which you’re applying than for your current job.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        I love giving vague answers in interviews, but I’ve also had some interviewers prompt because they wanted details :( That’s when I stumble.

        1. Jadelyn*

          If they push for details, I’d say it’s okay to be honest, as long as you’re calm and detached in the way you say it. I phone-screened a candidate once who, when I asked why she was leaving her job, told me – with a note of genuine sorrow in her voice – that there had been a lot of changes in management recently, and the whole culture of the place had shifted in a way she wasn’t comfortable with, so she was seeking an environment that was more [whatever – I don’t remember what]. I really respected that answer and didn’t consider it “badmouthing” the employer, and it was due in large part to her delivery of it. Tone makes all the difference between “The new manager is a jerk who constantly pressures us to upsell irrelevant stuff to clients who don’t need those services” and “New management has changed the culture at the office in a way I’m not okay with.”

          1. LJay*

            This.

            Also, I ask the question because I want to know for your candidacy to make sense for me. This is especially true if the new role would be a lateral move or a step down for you rather than a step up. I want to know that the reason you’re leaving isn’t that you’re terrible at your job and on a PIP and about to be fired, or that you’re embezzling a want to get out before you’re caught or something.

            I don’t want or need details, but knowing that you’re looking to leave an abusive or unethical work environment for a more healthy and positive one will help fill in the gaps for me as to why you are looking to say, take a pay cut to work for me or something.

            I also wouldn’t hold it against someone if they said something that was negative, but true, and did so and an unemotional and undramatic way. If someone told me that their boss raises their voice a lot and it makes the work environment uncomfortable, or that they were being asked to sign customers up for magazine subscriptions without their consent and they felt unethical doing that, I wouldn’t hold it against them. But it has to be succinct – more than a sentence or two starts to make me wonder, and it has to be factual – “my boss is an asshole and hates me and it probably sabotaging me behind my back” is opinions and impressions and would reflect more poorly (does boss really hate you and really a jerk, or is he just asking you to do your job and holding you to a standard and you don’t like that?)

    6. CastIrony*

      I am so sorry about this! I think you should say something like, “I’m looking for an opportunity to learn and grow in my career.”

      It’s a lie, I know, but it’s also vague.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I agree with this, but you can feel free to add specifics about other opportunities you’re seeking that you know/feel you’ll get at NewJob as opposed to OldJob. Answering this question should be about pull factors bringing you toward opportunities at new companies (specifically the company you’re interviewing with), and not the factors that are pushing you away from your old role/company.

    7. Anon Anon*

      Try to answer the question you want them to ask (rather than the question they asked). So, instead of answering directly about why you’re looking to leave your current role, talk about why you’re interested in their role in particular.

      So:

      Interviewer: “Why are you looking to leave your current role?”

      You: “I’d like to focus my work more directly on XYZ. That’s why I’m excited about this role — the opportunity to dig deeper into XYZ aligns well with my experience doing X and the development I’ve been doing to grow into Y and Z.”

      I recently went through a hiring process in which I was both super excited about the work I’d be doing in the potential new role, and incredibly fed up with my current workplace for a number of reasons. They didn’t ask this question directly, but because the hiring organization (a foundation) had an important relationship with my current organization (a nonprofit that they funded, including the program I managed) I answered it anyway:

      Interviewer: “So, why did you apply for this job?”

      Me: “First, let me be clear that I’m not actively looking to leave Current Organization. You know the work I do there, and it’s good and important work. But I just couldn’t pass up this opportunity in particular…” I talked about three levels of what was exciting about the opportunity: the field and the role this particular organization played in it (philanthropy; this foundation is a “disruptor” of traditional philanthropic models); the issue area of the team that was hiring (leadership development, which is my field); and the role itself (and how it played to my strengths and interests).

    8. Competent Commenter*

      As someone who interviews job candidates sometimes, I recommend you come up with something more specific than “not a good culture fit.” There’s probably something not great about this place in addition to the yelling. “I love that my current job gets me working on X but I’m ready to start on next level Y work and there isn’t room for that,” or “I really liked working in field A and it’s whetted my appetite for allied but more meaningful field B,” or even “It’s been great but there’s no room for advancement” or “the commute is too long.” Just something true that isn’t the part about the yelling. I also recommend you practice saying this out loud. I’m a notorious car talker when I drive alone and this is when I practice things like this. It’s how I prepared to interview for in-house jobs after years of self-employment. I wasn’t happy I had to make that change so I had to psyche myself up to be cheerful about it.

      I’ll add that I don’t ask why people are leaving their current jobs. I don’t really care. They’re leaving their jobs because the job sucks, or pays poorly, or is boring, or their coworkers are awful, or the commute is bad…that’s irrelevant. We all have the right to leave jobs and I feel like asking why you’re doing so almost suggests it’s not normal to move on. It’s perfectly normal. If you’re leaving because you’re on the verge of being fired for terrible behavior, I’ll hear that from your references.

    9. ZuZu*

      I left a company after ten months (which meant I was job searching after 6) because my boss was a terrible person/manager/etc. I told people that the office wasn’t the right cultural fit and explained that it was a really small office (6 people) and that it made for a challenging work environment. This was true, though obviously not the full story. Neither of the companies I interviewed with (and got offers from) had issues with this. You can’t badmouth your employer, but I think there are ways you can get the point across that you work in a terrible environment without explicitly saying it.

    10. Lucille2*

      You can respond with something around lack of upward mobility or long term success, which is probably true if your workplace is that dysfunctional like, “There is a lack of opportunities for long term advancement,” or “I’m really interested in growing my career into X longterm, but that is not a realistic prospect in my current company.”

      Of course, you can always put the emphasis on why you’re pursuing a position with the new company rather than focus on the decision being that you’re looking to get out of your current situation. They ask why you’re looking to leave, but what if you’ve had your eye on this company for awhile and you finally got your chance to throw your hat into the ring?

      1. Jadelyn*

        This is a good option – I’ve used this before when I was irritable at being strung along as a temp and underpaid to boot, and was looking for other options. “My current employer is dragging their feet about making me a real employee and doesn’t pay me for shit, even though I’ve brought them salary data that shows I’m making literally half what my role should be paid,” doesn’t fly super well, but “It’s a very small team that’s very stable in terms of roles and duties, so there’s no real room to grow,” is legit.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I say that it’s a bad fit. That I’m a quiet person and loud offices make me anxious. It’s a softer version of “yelling is my ejection point”

      I’ve started straight telling people I don’t like being screamed at. Every one who I say it to is alarmed and taken back that “that’s a thing”. I’ve gotten jobs every time I’ve mentioned it and each time the new job is forever aware I’ll leave if you ever scream at me or others…I’ve never dealt with screaming again.

      Don’t go into the dramatics. But soften it to “I’m looking for a better office culture and team dynamic.”

    12. Environmental Compliance*

      My last job involved lots of yelling, and lots of my boss putting me in stupidly unsafe situations because she only had an Escalate reaction rather than Deescalate. It’s one of the primary reasons why I left.

      When I interviewed, I said I was looking for growth in my career and thought it would be best to experience a new work environment with more upward mobility & opportunity for digging deeper into (areas X, Y, Z). They didn’t need to know that part of experiencing a new work environment was also looking for somewhere that didn’t find it appropriate to yell and scream at everyone.

    13. Ashie*

      Everyone else seems to be suggesting soft-shoeing around it but I really think if you say “Honestly, there’s a lot of yelling and I’m looking for somewhere a little more calm” I imagine you’ll get a chuckle, they’ll immediately understand why you want out of there, and they are very unlikely to make them think you’ll say bad things about them if that doesn’t apply to them. And if it does, that’s some pertinent information. And as a bonus, you don’t come across s mealy-mouthed and as if you’re hiding the real reason. Plus – it’s the truth!

      1. Joielle*

        Agreed! I think trying to vaguely tiptoe around it is worse. If I heard “bad culture fit,” I’d want to know more – what is the culture there? What made it a bad fit? – because otherwise I don’t know whether it’s a bad culture, or you’re a bad worker. So you end up telling the story anyways. Just get it out up front.

      2. ArtsNerd*

        YUP!

        Not “badmouthing” your employers means not gossiping about them or saying opinions like “my boss is an asshole.” Staying factual and not scandalized, and using Ashie’s script, will be very effecting in getting you into a not-yelling office.

      3. LJay*

        This.

        I’m asking because I want to know the answer to the question.

        If you just tell me you’re looking for better opportunities, I know you’re not answering the question but I don’t know why.

        If you tell me you’re looking for advancement, but you’ve been in your current position for less than a year I am going to wonder if you have unreasonable expectations about the work world.

        Short, honest, and unemotional are best for me. If I know someone is looking to leave an environment where people yell at them every day it makes sense to me why they are looking for a job, and looking at my job that might not pay as much or have as nice benefits as their current place. If I don’t know that, I worry that maybe they are on the verge of being fired for cause and trying to bail before that happens into any other place that will take them.

    14. LKW*

      I think most of the advice here is very good but if you think that you would be unsafe if they found you were looking to leave then you may need to be very upfront. I think it fine to day “I enjoy my work but I’ve found the particular culture is not a good fit. There are several people that are very volatile and I’m looking for a company that will push me to be my best but also does so with professionalism and respect.”

      Basically something that says “I’m not afraid to get my hands dirty – but I don’t think i should have to take a self-defense class to work here.”

    15. ChachkisGalore*

      I think there could be ways to phrase this to make it a bit less “overshare”-y or outright critical while still getting the point across. Instead of “I feel unsafe” something more along the lines of “I’m looking for somewhere that’s a better fit culture-wise. My current place can be quite intense and reactive, whereas I find that I thrive in environments that are more [insert the type of place you’d like to be]”.

      I think the key is finding terminology that can be a valid choice/option within the workplace, but you just happen to be opposite of that valid thing. Then the statements can remain neutral.

      Beyond that though, honestly if your place is really terrible there’s a good chance it has a reputation and you won’t be questioned all that closely because the interviewers already “get it”. I’ve mentioned this before, but I was looking to leave a role only a little over a year from starting. I was worried about how to explain this and had a very carefully crafted explanation. Gave it to one recruiter and they responded with “oh, don’t worry, I know that you work for a very not nice person” – which was exactly why I was actually leaving. Some places didn’t even ask me directly why I was leaving (just why do you want this job). Those that did never probed my answer, so I’m pretty sure most were aware of the reputation my boss had.

    17. theletter*

      so this is one of those questions that’s very difficult to answer in an interview. I usually just say “This is really about the opportunity” and then turn the question back to how you like the company’s mission and are excited by the challenges in the job description, etc.

      You could also say “I’m looking for something with a little bit more structure and growth opportunities” if they press further.

      Mainly, just keep doubling down on how you want to ‘grow’ until they move onto the next question.

    18. Zona the Great*

      I’m almost positive Alison has given guidance on this. I could swear that she has said it’s okay to say something like, “I’m in a highly abuse work situation and find it difficult to work in an environment where yelling and threatening is normal and acceptable”.

    19. Gaia*

      When I was interviewing, I was in a tough situation as Last Job ended in a way that, when explained and in context of some other major accomplishments made them look…..not great. In reality, they were in a tough situation and had to make hard decisions and my job was an unfortunate consequence (and, to their credit, they all were great in my job search, sent me leads, gave me amazing references and were very candid to perspective employers that this was their loss). But I still had to walk a fine line. It can be hard because anything that comes off as bad mouthing your employer might make you look like the problem or more dramatic than the interviewer wants to take on.

      I would suggest being vague but indicative that there is a problem. Something like “I’m looking for something in a more traditionally professional environment” or “While I initially thought this would be a great culture fit, as the company has changed I find that I’m looking more for X and Y and that is what I’m really excited about with Teapots United as this seems like a much stronger fit for me”

    20. Close Bracket*

      > one of the higher up’s threatened my manager’s life.

      “Bad fit” could mean anything from “one of the higher up’s threatened my manager’s life” to “they expect me to be there at 8, and I refuse to leave the house earlier than 10.” However, “one of the higher up’s threatened my manager’s life,” is objectively bat guano nuts, and I would be honest about it. No reasonable person would judge you for wanting to leave a place like that. I would lead up to it gently, like, “I love the work I’m doing, but I’ve seen some really bad workplace behavior, such as when one of the higher up’s threatened my manager’s life.” You might want to work on the wording, but that’s the basic idea of what I’m suggesting.

  5. Shark*

    Has anyone accepted a written job offer and then opted to decline prior to the position’s start date?

    I recently signed an offer letter/background check consent form a few days ago after wrapping up a near month-long interviewing process. It was my only offer and being unemployed, it really felt like a dream opportunity come true — great pay and benefits, great manager and team members, and perfect location as its so close to me. However, if its too good to be true, it probably is…and I’m having a lot of second thoughts about this opportunity.

    My main concerns involves the traveling and *possible* relocation for this company. The location I applied at is in southern NJ. I was told in my first interview that training would take place at one of the company’s Maryland locations. That came as a surprise, considering they have locations in nearby PA and also in northern NJ, but nonetheless I was prepared to take the 2+ hour drive down there for a week of training. After the second interview, I was informed that training will instead take place at our location — no travel required which I was super excited about…this is perfect! And then, just recently after signing the offer, I was later told plans had changed and training will now take place in one of the New York locations. Ugh, I’m so disappointed with this. I just don’t like constantly being told one thing and then the opposite happens. At the rate its going, I wouldn’t be surprised if I get an email tomorrow saying I need to go to Connecticut for training!

    Another reason why I’m second guessing this job is because during my interviews, I noticed they had people helping out at our location. People were here from Maryland and North Carolina because we are short staffed. Not only are people getting moved around from location to location when necessary, but I prefer to stay local because two years ago, my mom had a stroke. She is doing better now but I want to stay in the general area in case she needs help or if I have to take her to a doctor’s appointment. Nothing was mentioned about relocation during the interview, but I’m a bit hesitant the more I think about it now. I think there is a good chance that I may end up somewhere else — a state away, or several states away — during my time here whether it be a month from now, 6 months from now, etc. I don’t want to relocate. Or, if they’re short in NY or wherever during my training, I don’t want to be stuck up in another place longer than I have to be. I just feel like things are going to be worse than I thought. And I don’t know if I can really believe anyone since things keep getting changed.

    I feel really bad about declining this offer because everyone was so nice and professional. But I’m really worried that sooner or later, I’ll be working in a different state, or several states, away. Obviously, they’re not going to be happy with my decision to back out. But since I’m not scheduled to start until Dec 11th, I’d rather let them know now instead of work there and find out they need me somewhere else. It at least gives them another week or so to find other candidates. I know I’ll be burning a bridge, but it may be worth it in the long run. I’d rather be safe than sorry.

    Has anyone done anything similar?

    1. ISuckAtUserNames*

      I don’t know, but I kind of feel like you might be borrowing trouble. Turning down an otherwise good job offer because the office might, maybe, at some point in the future, be relocated seems a bit drastic.

      I would maybe start by reaching out to the hiring manager and note that the confusion over training and the movement of staff has you wondering if you will be in the NJ location or if relocation is likely or expected. If the manager confirms you will be working in the NJ location only, then I’d say go forward with the job, and if the subject of relocation comes up in the future, you can explain that you need to work in the location you’re at and if they would insist on relocation then you can look for something else then.

      1. londonedit*

        I agree…if you have already raised it with them and you haven’t received a satisfactory answer, then fair enough, but if you’re worrying about what might happen without raising those concerns with the hiring manager, I think that might be jumping the gun a bit. There’s no harm in doing what ISuckAtUserNames says.

        If it’s an all-round great-sounding job apart from the potential worry about relocation, you could still go for it – you never know what might happen with jobs anyway! You could start any new job and then find the company’s being sold or the boss is retiring or they’re moving the office in a year’s time.

        1. Psyche*

          Yeah, I don’t think that the training location moving around necessarily indicates that the job itself will move. Definitely reach out to verify and make it clear that you would not be able to work at another location due to your family circumstances, but don’t back out of a job you want over something that you are guessing. For all you know the people on loan volunteered.

      2. designbot*

        Agreed. I think these are great things to notice, and are definitely amber-colored flags. But it very well may be that it’s normal for training only to move around this much, and the employees borrowed from other locations are exactly why they’re hiring you, so they don’t have to do that anymore. I’d give them an opportunity to explain, and also take that opportunity to mention that it’s really important to you to be in this specific location for family reasons and see how they react to that before making the decision to walk away.

    2. Kathenus*

      Also when talking with the hiring manager being clear that your mom is dealing with health issues and that you need to remain in this area right now, and that you wanted to make sure to clarify that the position was local. I think proactively bringing it up can both assuage your fears and communicate openly/clearly with the organization on your needs so that you can make sure it’s the right fit before starting.

    3. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I haven’t done that, but I’ve been in a similar situation. Last year I was in a job I hated and had someone reach out to me out of the blue for an interview. It seemed like an awesome job, and they were very very excited about having me come on board (which was a wonderful change from the old job). However, the job was in a different state, halfway across the country. In the first interview, I was told I would have to move. I wasn’t thrilled about it, but it was doable. In the second interview, I was told they’d discussed and thought that if I came out for six months, they could get me completely onboarded and then I could work from home. When I accepted the offer, they had reduced the time to a month, but didn’t have specifics. When I called the week beforehand to say I really needed to nail down dates so I could buy plane tickets, they gave me a week time frame. I was pretty concerned that things seemed to be up in the air (and even more so when I got there and realized that even though we had discussed it, no one had booked a hotel for me).

      However, with all the craziness when I started, it’s been a fantastic job and I am very grateful every day that I forced myself to do it even through all of the concerns I had at the time. If you’re not currently working (if I read that right), why not go ahead and try it? You may find out that the people involved in training are less organized than the people you’ll be working with regularly. If you’re concerned about potential relocation, ask them. I know it’s scary (I really really really hate doing things like this), but that way you’ll have all the information to make your decision and won’t be wondering later what might have happened.

    4. WellRed*

      I can see why you are concerned but I am not sure you have enough information here. Also, if they are short staffed at your location, why would they move you? Also, just because people are helping out now, doesn’t mean they’ve been relocated, just that they are helping out. It’s too bad you didn’t clarify during the interview about how often they move people around.
      I do wonder about the training getting shifted around that. That’s annoying and seems disorganized.

      1. Mrs. D*

        I feel like there may be legitimate reasons why things are happening this way. Perhaps the training changed location because they were having trouble getting the trainer they wanted, and when they nailed down who would train you that changed the location where you would need to go. Maybe the trainer had some last-minute schedule changes that affected the location. There could be some perfectly reasonable reasons that you just don’t know.

        As for people from other locations coming to help at the location you’re hired for–well, they are hiring you for that location. You said they seem short-staffed there. Couldn’t they be hiring you for that location with the intent to put you there because of this staff shortage, not because they have a habit of moving people around? I think you might be reading too much into this. There’s not a whole lot they can do other than hiring people to fill the shortage gap if they need more staff.

        If I was in your position, because the hiring process had been conducted professionally and they intend to compensate you well for the position (plus all of the other good things about this job you mention), I would give the company the benefit of the doubt.

    5. Susan K*

      It doesn’t seem necessary to go straight to backing out of the job over this! Can you contact the hiring manager and say something like, “After I accepted the job, I realized that there is a lot of relocation at this company, and I want to verify that the job I am taking is for that specific location. I plan on staying in this area indefinitely and I’m not open to relocation, and I want to make sure that’s not going to be a problem in this position.” If it is an issue because you’re going to be expected to relocate on demand, at that point, you can say, “I’m north, but that’s not going to work for me. I didn’t realize this when I accepted the offer, and I’m going to have to decline now that I know.”

    6. Observer*

      Reach out and verify that the job itself is actually local, and explain that you need to do that because your mother is ill and you need to remain local to her. You’re asking because of the confusion with the training.

      If they say the job is local, take it. If they change their minds, you can always quit then. But you’ll be in a much stronger position to do that.

    7. Lalaith*

      Before you decide to back out entirely, can you discuss your concerns about relocating/moving around with them? Tell them about your mom and that you don’t want to be too far from her, and they may be willing to work to keep you local even if other locations do need help. I wouldn’t read too much into the training thing. It’s annoying, to be sure, but since you presumably didn’t bring up any issues with traveling to Maryland, they probably didn’t think you’d have a problem with going to New York either. And they probably are just thinking about it as being a one-week training, not a potentially longer assignment that you’d really have to plan for. But in any case, bring up your concerns to them before you just back out! Then you can act on what they tell you, and if they change things later then at least you’ve had that conversation where you told them your dealbreakers, and they shouldn’t be surprised if you have to leave at that point.

    8. OperaArt*

      Guven the information you have, turning down the job seems drastic to me.
      1. You haven’t communicated with them about your need to stay local.
      2. Training, and where it happens, is a separate thing from the job itself.
      3.They’re short-handed at your current location, and are probably unlikely to transfer anyone out in the near future.
      4. You think you would like the job.
      5. You can always take this job, and IF they ask you to relocate minths or years later, start looking for another one then. Potential new employers would most likely understand your job search then because of the relocation issue.

    9. Bigintodogs*

      Agree on what others have said and ask about relocation. You can also say, as others have suggested, that you would prefer to be local (if it comes up) because of family health issues.

      Also I’m in South Jersey too! =D

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your nerves are going to hurt you if you spook this easily.

      You have valid concerns but not enough to dip toes in

      Unless it’s a contact job, you’re not bound to them! If in 6 months it turns into “move to Maryland” you can say “I can’t relocate.” worse case you then quit or are laid off. You’ll have 6 months of pay and experience and a darn good reason to have a short term job on your resume.

      Taking this job doesn’t mean you’re locked into their grips for life, they don’t own you! And what’s the alternative? Stay unemployed and become more desperate as time passes? I’m assuming you’re living on limited means. Since you’re not currently employed.

      If you were quitting a decent job for this, this script would flip.

    11. Gaia*

      Moving training locations doesn’t sound like a huge red flag (maybe yellow) to me. I might inquire as to what is behind the changes. Maybe they are trying to make it convenient for the most people. Maybe there are other factors outside of their control. Without more info, it is hard to mark this as red.

      And the people helping out? Definitely not even yellow without more information. Maybe they like going to other offices for the change of scenery. Maybe they were hired on with the info that they would be doing that. Maybe it is a fluke thing only happening until they hire up at your local office. Hard to say, but not really a strange thing in larger companies to have people from other sites.

      I wouldn’t turn down an offer (especially when unemployed) for either of these things. If you are asked to relocate down the line, you can make that decision then. If you cannot travel for training, talk them now and see what options are available to you.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Put me in the “Non red flag camp without more info camp” as well. I totally understand where you’re coming from here OP at the same time….didn’t you ask these questions during the interview process? Asking about training and work location when you need to stay local seems like a no brainer to me.

        To answer your initial question, while I personally haven’t done it as a recruiter I’ve had a few candidates back out of jobs before the start date after signing an offer letter. The reasons are always different (counter offer, cold feet–especially with a relo, unexpected life event) and while I’m really good at my job and always make sure I cover any potential obstacles, people are still fickle and change their mind.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      I wouldn’t really be worried about training being moved around because they’re probably trying to find a central location for a larger group of new hires. Not really a red flag.
      But I would go back and confirm YOUR position’s location and that expected travel.

  6. HollywooCeleb*

    Hey y’all, I’m on track to have my first real direct report starting in January and was hoping that the AAM crowd could recommend me some good reads for a first time manager. I have already gotten Alison’s book from the library, but would be thrilled to read one or two more with a focus on management. More context below, if you care for it!

    Wakeen, the person I’ll be managing has been on my team for about a year, but reporting to my colleague. The work I do is far more directly related to what Wakeen does and I should be much more able to actually oversee and understand his work.

    Wakeen is good at what he does, and as we transition him into my management, we’ll also be slightly shifting his role to play more directly to his strengths, which is great! But he has demonstrated some inability to understand how hierarchy affects what you’re ‘allowed’ to do. This is Wakeen’s first job, and he definitely suffers from some of the misplaced gumption–from sending out an all-staff marked high priority when it’s a simple link that featured a few of our company’s products, to spending far too much time figuring out the why of a request when he could be simply completing it.

    I have found myself irritated by this quality in the past and would love any suggestions about how to kindly make it clear that this kind of behavior can affect your reputation and how I can focus more on making him a more effective worker rather than on my annoyance. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to respond!

    1. Ali G*

      I don’t have any book suggestions, but if your employer will allow you some fund for professional development, I recommend the Dale Carnegie online management training series. They have a lot of great stuff. They are interactive webinars where you can act out these type of scenarios with other participants, facilitated by a professional.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        +1 on Dale Carnegie. Excellent stuff.

        Two books that I’ve gotten a lot of value out of were “Emotional Intelligence” by Bradberry and “What to do When Conflict Happens” by Harvey and Ventura

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d use each instance to teach an overview or general idea.
      In the email example, you could say that “We very rarely use high priority, all staff emails. While I understand your enthusiasm, we have to be more selective about who we sent what information because we don’t want to bog people down with info they don’t need. After a while they will just ignore our emails because it’s too much.” Then tell him what you would like going forward. “Please limit your emails to our section [or check with me first or whatever].”
      Then with the time spent on the request, I would ask him why he wanted to figure out the reason for the request. I think that might give you some info you both can talk over. You might land on “In cases of X or Y, requests just go ahead and complete it. Our real concerns are with A or B request and then, YES, we need to find out why because of Reasons 1, 2 and 3.”

      You’d find this with any new employee that they need rules of thumb, guidelines, so they are in sync with everyone else. He probably did not get guidelines from his current boss because his work is more like yours , not like hers. Where I work, I sign all As, Bs and Cs. I leave all Ds, Es and Fs for my boss to sign. It’s a rule of thumb and we follow it. The papers she signs requires more expertise than I have. In a different example, we frequently have people who ask for X. If their request has Z involved then I must ask my boss. If their request only involves W, then I can go ahead and full their request.

      Am chuckling, this may work into a non-issue because he may be so glad to work with someone who actually understands what he is doing that he just goes right along with what you tell him. Teach him rules of thumb so he can make correct decisions without constantly checking with you.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Congrats… and get ready for a wild ride of managing people :) Great questions, I’ll answer a few directly and then also give some broader thoughts to ponder.

      One thing to do is frame in your mind the time before the switch and the time after. I’ve seen new managers come down on former peers for sins of the past (as I like to call them). I’m not suggesting you forget everything you know about Wakeen, but don’t start the boss/employee relationship by tallying up all of those things that have annoyed you.

      So that means you have to mentally start with a clean slate. For instance, if 6 months from now Wakeen sends out an all-staff email, you need to mentally consider it a first offense. You coach like you would a brand new employee who did the same thing. Imagine a new employee sending out an all staff email. You’d likely approach them and say something like “Hey, I get what you were aiming at her, but we generally don’t use announcements like that. Typically they are used for A, B, an C. Your type of announcement is typically posted on our intranet. From here on out please run any email you want to send to the entire staff past me before you do it”

      You would say generally the same thing to Wakeen but tweak it a little.

      “Hey, I get what you were aiming at her, but I prefer we don’t use announcements like that. Typically they are used for A, B, an C. Your type of announcement is typically posted on our intranet. From here on out please run any email you want to send to the entire staff past me before you do it. I know you’ve sent similar ones in the past but from now on, we’re going to limit the all-staff emails to A, B, and C to be consistent with the other groups”

      When you first start out, I’m going to caution you to be mindful of the authority balance. It’s a tough one to get the hang of and everyone struggles with it in the beginning. Your last paragraph indicates to me that you are likely to fall on the too much authority side of the seesaw. I think you should worry less about teaching lessons during the first year-ish and more about learning lessons :) Being the guy that sends out too many all-staff email or questioning why is not going to kill anyone’s career. It’s stuff that can be worked on as you go and shouldn’t be your main focus when starting out with Wakeen.

      Hopefully some of this made sense. Feel free to ask more questions or let me know if some that didn’t make sense.

      1. HollywooCeleb*

        I’m definitely worried about falling too hard on the authority side of the seesaw! Thanks for the framework here, I think it will be really helpful to me.

    4. Xarcady*

      I’m sorry I can’t remember the name of the book I got this from, but when I became a new manager and was reading everything I could get my hands on, this one piece of advice really stood out.

      Nothing on an annual performance review should ever be a surprise to the employee receiving the review.

      What this means is that a manager should not wait for the annual performance review to bring up any problems. I’ve had this happen to me, and it was not a pleasant surprise. Seriously, you’ve been upset about this for months and never thought to mention it to me so that I could fix things? Were you deliberately doing that so I’d have a bad review?

      So managers should address issues as they happen, and keep tabs on things to see if they improve. I had short weekly meetings with all of my direct reports where I could bring up how well they were doing on things that needed improvement. Make a note if they do improve–that’s great stuff to put on a review, but awfully easy to forget.

      Also, those weekly meetings were a good place to touch base on their workloads and any problems they might be having in getting their work done. I always had the direct report start the meeting with anything they wanted to talk about–I learned a lot from listening to them on what kind of support they needed from other departments and issues they had with various vendors.

      Also, any time you want an employee to improve something, you need to give them a clear idea of how that improvement will be measured. That can get tricky–“get along better with your co-workers” isn’t something you can log in a spreadsheet, but it is important for that employee to work on. You can always go to your manager for help with this sort of stuff.

      Mostly, I tried to be the kind of manager I would want to have.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        “Mostly, I tried to be the kind of manager I would want to have.”

        This is great advice. I’ll add what I used to do (sometimes still do) and what I’ve advised other new leaders.

        If you are not sure what to do or say in a situation (could be anything, from coaching an employee to standing up for them). Think back to a good or respected boss you’ve known and channel them and say or do what they would do. It totally helps in those situations that are new to you and you haven’t quite figured out how to navigate yet.

    5. Lucille2*

      It sounds like he’s making some rookie mistakes. I would address them in the moment, directly and concisely. It’s ok to want to understand why you’re doing a task, but he needs to understand that not all tasks warrant the level of background info he’s requesting. He also needs to learn that not all battles are worth fighting. If he doesn’t improve with time, then it’s a pattern that needs to be discussed and how it will hold him back professionally. But I doubt you need to come out of the gate with that feedback.

      Regular, ongoing feedback is very valuable. Nip bad behaviors in the bud before they become major issues. Also, don’t forget to tell him what he’s doing well. Too often, managers focus on correcting behaviors and miss the opportunities to reinforce good ones.

    7. LKW*

      If I were in your shoes, I would reframe this as a communication process with two sub-considerations:

      1. What is the communication chain. Usually on projects I establish the org chart – sponsors, leads, key teams, etc. I then outline how communication flows, team member to manager, manager to lead, lead to sponsor. Sponsor to lead, lead to manager, manager to team member. There should be no leapfrogging because then you’re putting one group at a disadvantage and the whole point is to work together. Clearly define who specifically sits at each of these levels. Assume nothing is clearly understood.

      2. What information is appropriate at each level in the hierarchy? The folks at the top should be informed and making decisions regarding scope, cost, resources, time, risks to the business, etc. They don’t want to answer the question “Do you like blue or green teapots?” They want to answer “Market research has shown that blue teapots outsell green teapots 3 to 1 so we recommend manufacturing 300 blue and 100 green teapots. Can you confirm this is acceptable?”

      Anytime he goes outside of this – call him out. Sit him down. Point to the materials, ask him why he went outside of your defined guidance. He likely doesn’t understand what is important to the folks at the top and what they actually know because he doesn’t yet have the perspective you do.

    8. 30 Years in the Biz*

      The book “Radical Candor: be a kick-ass boss without losing your humanity” by Kim Scott was recommended to me. It has great reviews on Amazon and is endorsed by the NY Times and WSJ. I’ve requested it from my local library, but may just buy it if it turns out to be a good reference.

    9. Close Bracket*

      > spending far too much time figuring out the why of a request when he could be simply completing it.

      Smart, capable employees don’t like being expected to comply mindlessly. Maybe give him some context upfront so he knows the why.

    10. Jane Gloriana Villanueva*

      Radical Candor also has a podcast; they’re on extended hiatus but it’s been helpful. I haven’t finished the book yet, but Thanks for the Feedback is also good.

      I strive to be the kind of manager I would want, but it’s also hard because being a good manager means you treat people differently. Equitably, but with an eye to what works for them. I must admit I am struggling right now, as my sole report is turning out not to be the greatest fit. It bothers me so much, because I have tried so many different ways to approach his problems (including asking him and implementing how he wants to receive feedback, and having him very unsuccessfully tell me how he he plans to fix his issues), but I cannot make him *want* to improve and I think we are at that critical point now.

      I wish you great success in your new role!!

    11. LurkieLoo*

      Whatever things he does that you feel are not acceptable . . . get on them early. With my first direct report, I took a “wait and see” approach and was way too lenient. Then when I did need to rein in expectations, attitude, etc., it was MUCH harder because status quo was already established. Then it was really hard to change because if it was fine before, why isn’t it now? In most cases, I couldn’t give a good reason so I just let things keep sliding.

      For example, I established a weekly check in because he felt he wasn’t getting training or support and that I was always “too busy” and he felt he couldn’t interrupt. At the same time assuring him that if it was urgent, to please interrupt. We all have lots of things to do here and there is never going to be a better or worse time. If it’s a super bad time, I’ll say so and schedule a better time. Anyway, we did one or two and then he just started blowing me off every single week. Then even when I changed it to as little as once a month. No big deal to me . . . I have plenty of other things to do with that 20-60 minutes. BUT . . . I would have been much better off enforcing the meetings instead of just letting it go. Like, Wakeem, you can’t just NOT talk to me. You especially can’t not talk to me and then say I’m too busy to help you.

      I think the more structured you can be from the start, the easier it will be. Not that you can’t be flexible, but YOU are the boss, not Wakeem. That was probably my biggest downfall . . . I didn’t want my employee to get mad and leave so I let him dictate way more than I should have. There were many other variables that led to the co-toxicity of the situation, but if I had been more clear sooner than later, I think it would have been better. And really, an employee getting mad and leaving is probably not a bad thing if that’s the kind of employee they are.

      I do think, however, that the why of things is often important for employees to understand. If they don’t know that being sloppy with X leads to Y down the road, they aren’t as likely to take X seriously. Especially if it seems silly or mundane (like noting the exact final teapot glaze). So if it’s possible to give a little more time there, that might be good. Unless it’s more of the whiny kind of why do I have to do this. Then just shh and do it, Wakeem. ;)

  7. JokeyJules*

    I always eat my lunch while catching up on emails or updating spreadsheets and then take my break at another time to do something else. Just because you were eating doesn’t mean it’s a break!

  8. Susan K*

    I’m a little behind on podcasts, and I just listened to the one about how to conduct one-on-one meetings. Well, none of my managers have ever done anything like that! I’ve had a couple of managers who said they were going to start doing one-on-ones monthly, but they only lasted a couple of months, and they were more like mini performance reviews than what Alison described. So, I’m just curious how common this practice is — do most managers do this, or only a select few?

    Up until earlier this year, I had only worked in shift work jobs, so that could have been part of the reason. In that type of job, we didn’t typically have long-term projects because if there was anything going past the end of the shift, the next person just took over where the last person left off. Are weekly/biweekly one-on-ones useful for that type of job? I changed jobs earlier this year where I actually do have long-term projects, but my new manager doesn’t do one-on-ones, either.

    2. Goomba*

      I have monthly one on ones that is very well-received by my manager. She did not typically do these with previous employees but I got her to do some with me and this has developed into a very useful routine for both of us. I did make an effort to “manage up” by taking the initiative to structure the meetings. I typically print out an agenda that lists my tasks and projects as: Done, Ongoing, On Hold, Upcoming. A final section at the bottom is Questions I have for her which always includes an item My performance/How am I doing so far on the job for her feedback. This way I have a continuous record of verbal feedback on my performance which I take notes on and file away. I hope this helps!

    3. BlueWolf*

      Yeah, my manager keeps saying we’re going to start doing 1-on-1s and it still hasn’t happened, so my guess is that many managers probably know it’s something they should do, but don’t know exactly how to go about it.

      1. Blank*

        I was promised weekly check-ins three months ago, which haven’t materialised. Would’ve been nice to have the support through delivering some complex outputs for the first time after a major promotion! I ended up so busy I didn’t notice I was struggling until well past the point where it would’ve been useful. (At least my actual manager knows the project director is terrible, and has been a help as I vent my rage even though they can’t offer practical assistance.)

    4. Sandy*

      I recently left a long term job where we went through the see-saw of we have to do one-on-ones /we never do one-on-ones once or twice a year. It was particularly frustrating because it would swing between it being my manager’s responsibility to do it and then once in a while a stern(ish) statement that it was my responsibility to come to her for them. Also annoying because we did, in fact, communicate all the time about important tasks and where we were on projects. It just wasn’t official.

      1. Susan K*

        Haha, that happens in my department with a lot of things. One of the managers will come up with an idea for something we should start doing, and management will be really gung-ho about this new thing for a few weeks and then it just fizzles out, only to be resurrected a year later but fizzle out again after a few weeks. For that reason, I can’t see my manager ever doing weekly or biweekly one-one-one’s and actually sticking with it for more than a few months.

        1. Sandy*

          That sounds extremely familiar! A few weeks of enthusiasm followed by a dribble off into nothing. I definitely see the usefulness of one-on-ones, but in my situation, we communicated regularly already and things did not typically get out of hand or forgotten. My manager was very accessible to me and that makes a big difference. In a different setting, with a different manager, I can see myself insisting on it.

    5. Brownie*

      The best manager I’ve ever had did one-on-ones, usually bi-weekly. The content varied from “here’s some issues” to “what are you working on” to “look at this cool new coding”, but they always started with “do you have anything you’d like to talk about?” It was a designated time when I had access to my manager for any questions, concerns, or discussion and they had access to me to find out everything from project status to morale level. Quite a few times I used the one-on-one time to ask how I should handle issues with coworkers which had come up. It worked spectacularly for me to feel like I was part of a team and that the manager actually cared about me and how I was doing.

    6. Friday Anon*

      1:1 meetings are a huge part of my office’s culture. They’re usually held on a weekly basis. I find them to be very useful. It’s a good chance to walk through my projects, ask questions, get feedback, and catch up.

    7. Kes*

      Not everywhere does them, but I think it’s a good practice especially if your work changes on a day to day basis, so that the manager can keep tabs on how the employee is doing and the employee can get any needed information/updates from the manager.

      Even where it is done, frequency and priority may vary – IME, 1-on-1s can easily get pushed if someone is away or something more important comes up (as long as at least some of them do happen, you’re good). I have one scheduled every 3 weeks currently with my manager (I scheduled it myself, since he is busy and hadn’t gotten around to it) and it does get pushed sometimes, but it’s just a good opportunity for us to check in with each other and get any information we need/see how things are.

    8. Ama*

      I do weekly one on ones with my direct report — she’s pretty new to the working world so I find weekly helps us both identify any areas where she might need me to provide extra guidance, and gets us both on the same page about our priorities for the week. We work in a department that frequently juggles multiple long term projects and recurring tasks so the check ins help us both stay on top of everything. They are also a nice way for me to bring up any larger issues I want to address (she’s a great employee, but inexperienced with office norms, so occasionally we just need to have a little chat about something before it becomes an actual problem); having the one on one means I don’t have to pull her into a special separate meeting that would make the issue seem more of a Big Deal than it actually is.

      With my own manager I have a standing monthly, although we check in with each other frequently outside of that time so we use our monthly meeting largely for project planning (i.e. “here’s the timeline I’m looking at for next year’s Teapot Convention”) and an overall status report.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have weekly 1:1

      We use it to catch up, discuss on going things and chat about new tasks or projects. Never is performance brought up…That’s addressed whenever it’s necessary, not put off…

      I’ve never had them prior. Mine are not super necessary because most times I’m a very forward person who tackles issues immediately or discusses as things unfold.

      However, I’ve never had a supervisor who has a boss of their own until now. Also I’m high ranking enough that I’ll just walk my butt into the CEOs office to ask things others are mumbling about but don’t want to “bother” the “big guy” with. I’ll bother the heck outta anyone and everyone when it’s a reasonable enough question bouncing around the collective.

    10. GyreFalcon*

      I had regular one on ones with my manager when I started, for the first 6 months once a week, and then less frequently. After that though, they became pretty unnecessary – if my manager needs an update, he asks me, and if I need some time with him I schedule it, but otherwise I hardly see him.

    11. LKW*

      I have my reports set up 1:1s with me. They control the meeting. I may ask to move it but I never decline outright (unless it’s a holiday week). If your manager declines, just resend an invite for a different day. If they decline several weeks in a row- call them out. Put it in writing. I’ve been trying this, you keep cancelling. This is important for these specific reasons, 1, 2, 3.

      Also when I have internal team meetings, I tell them to go through their priorities for the week and what, if anything, they need from me whether it’s a task or escalating something. I also ask if they need help from the team on any of their priorities.

    12. Audiophile*

      At my current job, I’ve consistently had 1:1, until I started working under my current manager about a year ago.

      It started off well enough, but I quickly noticed the 1:1 were more venting/therapy sessions for him, so I stopped actively insisting we have them. Unless I need something time sensitive from him, I don’t stick to our 1:1.

    13. Close Bracket*

      I’ve never in my life had a 1-on-1. I’ve rarely had direct contact with my mangers outside yearly reviews or quick questions on how to handle something.

    14. designbot*

      I’ve never had formal 1-on-1’s at any company I’ve worked for that weren’t part of the review process.
      It is normal however in my field for a manager to pop in on an employee and be like “I just wanted to check in with you about what’s on your plate,” or an employee to grab their manager to be like, “hey I had some questions” and it sounds like that’s the function this is filling to me.

    15. TL -*

      When I worked in a lab I always had lots of informal one on ones with my managers (near daily with some of them), just because it was often necessary for the nature of the work and labs are open plan so you are always in pretty close physical proximity.

      Now, I meet with my manager once a week, by my request, because I do tend to just get work done and not contact people unless there is a specific plan, and for my remote work (different job), I email when I’m out of work/need review or she emails when she has feedback and/or more work. It works well. I don’t know that we ever have a formal type thing but because I’ve always talked pretty frequently, if the manager is good, I generally know what’s working well/what needs improvement.

    16. Dr. Doll*

      I’m very senior and have biweekly 1/1’s with my even more senior manager. Sometimes these are rescheduled or we miss one, but it’s consistent. He’s in a different location, so scheduling is important.

      I have monthly 1/1’s with my direct reports, but we also have a weekly staff meeting which the group finds very productive, and also all of us feel free to stop in or email or call any time. The monthly’s are just dedicated time to check in.

  9. Dragoning*

    I have a question about networking., informational interviews, and trying to figure out a career path.

    I’m a recent-ish grad (it’s been 4 years, but I’m still very entry level, so), and I have. No. Idea. Where to go with my career. I certainly don’t want to retire in an entry-level position, but I also know that I don’t want to be promoted into the most obvious path in this department. I like my job a lot, actually–but I have no idea what to do in the future.

    I’ve found some people who work for the larger company I’m part of through LinkedIn and the company intranet that have jobs I’m interested in–or may interested in, if I had more information about them. But I’ve never met these people and I’m not sure how to send an email to a stranger going “hey I found you on the internet what is your job do exactly?” without getting…sent straight to spam.

    Further, I see a lot of conversation on this site about “professional organizations” but…what are theses, exactly? How do you find them, how do you join them, do they cost money? I don’t know if I can afford to pay for something like that, but I need it most right now, don’t I?

    Any insight would be great.

    Thanks.

    1. LayoffLimbo*

      You should be able to still get student rates on many professional orgs. And some of the local ones will let you come to meetings a couple of times for free before you are expected to join up, or will have open events. That’d make it more affordable, and allow you to check if it’s worth it to you!

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      You may be able to start by joining a local/state affiliate of a national organization. Those rates tend to be cheaper. Also ask perhaps if your company would cover dues, since it’s directly related to your work? Professional organizations often hold conferences that could be helpful for you to figure out if you want to advance in it or move away from it (and you don’t always have to be a member to go, but you could get a cheaper rate if you do), and would help build your network to find out what people are doing in that particular field.

      1. Dragoning*

        I am in permalance contractor purgatory. I suspect neither the company that signs my paycheck nor the company I show up to every day would pay for any of this.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          Something else you could try is reaching out to your old English professors and seeing what alumni contacts they have. It is easier to reach out when you already have some form of a connection-you could easily reach out on LinkedIn or via email with “Hello! Professor Dumbledore recommended I connect with you; I am interested in your field and would love the opportunity to hear about it from you. Would you be available for a meeting or a phone call?”

    3. Justin*

      As the other comment said, you can probably get discounts. It would be, depending on the size, under 100 a year. Not that that’s cheap buuuut theoretically if you go to the events and network, you’d be making more than that and then some so it would pay off.

    4. Goomba*

      Depending on the field, some membership organizations give very discounted rates for students or new grads. Some even provide free membership! An example of one that has discounts for students is: https://www.stc.org/ and another with free membership is http://www.upa-dc-metro.org/. These are useful for volunteering, networking, and attending meetups and conferences to get to know more experienced and seasoned veterans in your field. They usually have an inside track on jobs, companies, and skills to develop and “insider” perspective on what books to read, blogs and Twitter accounts to follow, newsletters to subscribe to, and types of projects to try and get under your belt (and which to avoid). I’ve had a good run with membership organizations

      1. Dragoning*

        I’m not sure what field I would even be looking in…I have an English degree and work as a proofreader, but I work in the pharmaceutical industry….I feel like most of the pharma-oriented orgs would be way out of my depth.

        Whereas my English-major orgs would be in like publishing or writing–which I’m invested in, but this is more about Day Job things…

        2. chi chan*

          Medical transcription or technical writing or scientific editing. Look around for people doing similar work.

          1. Dragoning*

            Yeah, that’s some of the stuff I’ve found on LinkedIn–but I don’t actually know what a “medical writer” does!

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              It can vary — at the most basic level, someone has to write all those inserts that go into prescription packaging. Someone writes the safe dosage instructions for prescribers. Someone writes up the instructions for determining whether a patient is a good candidate for a new artificial hip, and the surgical procedures for it. Sometimes it’s regulatory filing paperwork. Sometimes it’s grant applications. Once in a while it might be writing PR *about* the medical company’s products for general press releases.
              With your documentation background and pharmaceuticals experience, it’s worth doing some research. One easy place to start — whoever wrote the material you’re proofreading!

              Good luck.

              1. Dragoning*

                That gets a little back to “emailing people at my company I’ve never interacted with and don’t know me,” though. Not sure how to phrase that email.

            2. epi*

              I used to do a little bit of freelance medical writing and editing. There are several organizations out there that might interest you.

              Look into the American Medical Writers Association, which also represents editors. Also, if you Google that organization, you should get an information card from Google that shows what other orgs people searched for. Several are relevant.

              Lots of people move between roles in science and medicine. They might decide to move towards (or away from) big differentiators such as direct patient care or research. So you can really find people who might have a similar background to yours almost anywhere. One thing I do is Google the alphabet soup in people’s email signatures (IME almost everyone with letters will put them). Very often, those aren’t all degrees– they’re certifications, often from a professional association.

              1. Dragoning*

                I’m too entry level to really have met any of those people…no one who sends me emails have titles in their sigs.

        3. Ama*

          If you are at all interested in nonprofit, medical research focused nonprofits often need people who can communicate scientific concepts to lay audiences. This could include anything from a traditional Communications Department role, to working with the science and grants programs (which is what I do, I have two English degrees). We even have a new hire in our Development office who has some industry experience, which is great because she can work with prospective donors who want more info about how medical research and drug development work. You’d be a very intriguing candidate for a lot of those jobs with your background.

        4. Autumnheart*

          You may also consider the kind of work you’d like to evolve into, and look for professional organizations for that role. If you’re a proofreader now, but you’d like to move into editing or technical writing or even project management (or other field not expressly related to proofreading), maybe look for those organizations.

          If you dig the pharmaceutical industry, look for those organizations. One thing you’ll find over the years is that you’ll absorb a lot of industry knowledge just by virtue of being exposed to it through your job. That can be valuable if you’re trying to change roles, because your industry knowledge can act as a bridge even if your skills aren’t a 100% transfer.

    5. Anona*

      Some companies will pay for a membership to a professional organization or for a conference as a part of professional development. That’s how I’ve had all of my involvement with them. You can try asking others in your organization to see if there are professional organizations people in your field typically get involved with. Or you can google your field + professional organization to see what pops up. There may be free online resources, like listservs, possibly.

    6. Pam*

      As an example of a professional organization, I work at a university as an advisor, and I belong to the National Academic Advising Association. (There are others as well)

      Try googling your field plus professional organization, or check out some of those LinkedIn profiles to see if an organization is mentioned.

    7. irene adler*

      Might google “x industry professional organizations” or search for trade journals in the industry you are interested in. These journals -many are on-line- will have articles or even links to relevant professional organizations.

      Most organizations have web sites and can connect you with the chapter in your area. Then email the chair of the local chapter and ask if you can show up at their next regular meeting (usually monthly; some are quarterly). Explain your situation. Ask for introductions to someone at the regular meeting who might be helpful to your situation. Talking either a mentor, or someone who is just a little ahead of you career-wise who can impart good advice. Folks at these groups love imparting advice.

      1. Dragoning*

        This is a good idea! There are a LOT of company headquarters in my industry where I live, so while they may not all be in my field, there should be some kind of pool of people to meet up.

    8. Anono-Mice*

      I also would like to say that you could easily ask this forum what roles you are looking at for some clarity! There is a very very diverse crowd on here so while the jobs would not be identical you could get more of an idea of what those positions typically look like

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        The “how much money do you make” thread from a few years back is a goldmine of information, because a lot of people explained what they do at their job in addition to detailing their seniority and salary and whatnot. More than once I have pulled up that thread and used ctrl-F to hunt for different keywords to learn more about what people *actually do* in various roles.

    9. Gumby*

      What you are looking for is a true informational interview. You can do them even if you aren’t actively looking for a job! In fact, people might be more open to meeting with you because they know it’s not a sneaky approach at getting a job interview.

      I think it’s perfectly fine to say you are a relatively recent grad who has been working for [company] for a few years and is considering career options. You see that their title is X and you’d love a chance to take them to coffee (even better if they are in the same office and coffee is free) and chat about that type of position for 15 minutes or so. If you have any connections in common you could ask for an introduction, but the shared background of working for the same company will probably be enough.

  10. Anonymous fatty*

    Lately, my coworkers have been talking about diet/weight/workouts all the freaking time. There are two new employees in my department who are really into fitness, and every day, they go on and on about their workouts and what they have eaten. This also prompts other coworkers who are into fitness/dieting, but don’t normally talk about it all the time, to join in.

    Now my manager has decided that he wants to get in shape, and one of my coworkers (who is a big fitness buff) has offered to help him, so now they talk about it all the time, and due to the location of my desk, these conversations often occur right outside my cubicle. Just last week, I got to hear a conversation in which the coworker asked our manager how much he weighs and what his goal weight is, and the manager told him.

    Another coworker recently returned from a two-month medical leave, and our manager remarked three times that he looked like he lost weight, and finally cornered him and demanded to know if he had lost weight, and the coworker said that he had actually gained 13 pounds (followed by a long discussion including his exact weight at each doctor visit during his medical leave).

    And every single day, I get to hear a list of what certain people ate in the last 24 hours. “I had 520 calories yesterday. All I ate was 2 protein drinks and a plain grilled chicken breast.” (No exaggeration — some people are on diets in which they only eat 500 calories some days. And they work out every day.) And then people try to one-up each other: “Well, I only had 1 protein drink and half of an egg white.” Or admiration for those who starve themselves: “Wow, I wish I had your willpower. I’m such a pig, yesterday I had a piece of whole-grain toast, a hard-boiled egg, a salad without dressing, a fish fillet, three Brussels sprouts, and half a strawberry for dessert.”

    Any time someone brings in food (like a box of donuts or leftover Halloween candy), these people spend the whole day loudly complaining about the food-bringers ruining their diets. They almost always eat the food that is brought in and then complain that they will have to fast the next day to make up for it, or how many miles they will have to run or how long they will have to work out on the elliptical to burn off the extra calories. I’m sorry, but nobody is forcing them to eat these things (people are not pushy about it at all — they simply leave the food in the break room for anyone to eat or not eat).

    It’s like this all day, every day, and it makes me so uncomfortable (and I often think they’re being rude, like straight up asking how much someone weighs!), but I don’t know how to get away from it. I am the fattest person in my department, so it makes me feel like they are implicitly judging me. I don’t feel comfortable asking them to stop, because I suspect that will call even more attention to my own weight. I don’t want to jump in and change the subject because then I would have to say something related to the conversation just to segue to a different subject (otherwise, it would be obvious that I’m just trying to change the subject), and I don’t want to be a part of these conversations at all. I just want to disappear when they start talking about this stuff, and it’s all the time.

    1. Oxford Comma*

      I’ve been on the other end of this. Thanks for saying this because I don’t think I’ve ever thought how it might be perceived from people who aren’t interested.

      I don’t have any suggestions for you, but I will try to be more circumspect about these discussions in future.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I don’t have any great suggestions but I feel you. I am the fat one in our office and people bring up their workouts and food and diets and plexus and UGH! I wish they’d just stop. I feel your pain and commiserate with you. :(

    3. ExcelJedi*

      No advice, but I feel your pain. My sister’s just like this, and she’s always asking after my workout routine, if I used the workout DVDs she got me, why I haven’t added her on fitness apps…..And I have the same fears about asking her to stop or changing the subject. I brush it off and just feel terrible about myself afterwards far too much.

      It’s exhausting when people force their own body issues on you, and you can’t getaway from it.

    4. some dude*

      i’m sorry. This is awful. And to my ears, this all sounds like very unhealthy and disordered eating. Eating 500 calories a day is called having an eating disorder. obsessing about every calorie is not good. I am all for people having strict workout schedules or strict diets they stick to – whatever floats your boat, as long as it isn’t harming you. but don’t freaking talk about it all the time.

      I don’t have great advice on how to make it stop, but I can say that they are the ones with the problem, not you.

      1. Tara S.*

        I know, I saw only 500 calories and !!! But that’s not the point, other people’s bodies are not our business. It’s reasonable to not have to constantly hear body talk in the office, no matter what the content.

    5. Tara S.*

      I’m sorry, this sucks. Not a ton of great options. There’s headphones to block out some conversations while you’re at your desk?

      1. Anonymous fatty*

        I usually just ignore, or at least pretend to ignore them. If I’m at my desk, I just keep working and pretend not to hear them, so I feel like putting on headphones every time they start talking about weight and diets would be too obvious, almost like asking them to stop. Plus, this also happens a lot when I’m not at my desk, like when we’re all in the conference room waiting for a meeting to start, or in the breakroom at lunch time, etc., and especially at those times, I basically feel trapped — can’t even really pretend not to hear them.

        1. Kelly AF*

          I am incredibly blunt and sarcastic (and fat) and I would be really, really hard-pressed to not put on a big show of banging my head on the table and exclaiming “for the love of god, develop another hobby! This one is so, so boring!” And then pointedly subject-changing from then on out. (“I ate 500 calories yesterday!” “OH HEY DID YOU SEE THE NEW EPISODE OF THE GOOD PLACE LAST NIGHT?”)

          Also, I wouldn’t assume people will read into (or even notice) you putting headphones on every time the diet talk starts. People are paying way less attention to you than you think they are (this is a collective “you” — we all make this mistake). I cannot stand the sound of someone eating, so every time the coworkers near me eat at their desks, I pop earbuds in so I can’t hear it. If they’ve ever paid enough attention to make the connection, they’ve never mentioned it. And if they did, I would frame it as a weird quirk I have, nothing personal.

          1. Tara S.*

            ^^^ all this. Also, for conference rooms quagmires, responding to “I only ate 500 calories” with a horrified “Oh…” then pause and subject change might be enough to clue some people in that not everyone is excited to hear about this topic. When my coworkers started to discuss diets with me, I just stuck to non-answers and tried to move the conversation on. It’s not perfect, it won’t solve everything, but maybe some things. <3

        2. The New Wanderer*

          I think if they notice at all, they can just as easily assume you are bothered by them having a conversation right outside your cube, not because of the content of that conversation. And that’s totally fair, the conversation itself is distracting you.

          Our open cube office tends to have signs up telling people to take their conversations elsewhere for everyone’s sake. If that’s in your office culture, maybe put a sign up saying you’re in a ‘quiet work zone’ or similar to dissuade chatty people – they’ll ignore the sign of course, but if you then ask them to move along, they’ll associate it with you trying to work, not you avoiding diet talk (which, UGH).

    6. Amber Rose*

      So many fistbumps of solidarity. Our office is the same way, more so now that we have our own gym in-office. It’s hard to listen to, as I am also the fat person and I struggle with it a lot.

      Is music an option? I tend to turn up the volume on my iPod whenever that stuff starts up so I can at least focus on something I want to listen to.

    7. Zip Silver*

      Just remember, conversations between other people about fitness aren’t about you. They likely aren’t thinking about you at all. If you’re feeling like it’s directed at you, don’t worry, because it’s not.

      1. Nonni*

        +1.

        People aren’t talking about their fitness at you. People are just talking about their fitness. I would try and think of it as if they were discussing a TV show you didn’t watch and weren’t interested in, or a hobby you had no insight into and couldn’t understand why it was interesting. Mentally translate “calories eaten” into “dollars spent on model trains” or something, and laugh at their ridiculous obsession.

        1. Anonymous fatty*

          The difference is that weight and diet are very sensitive and personal issues for a lot of people (including me) in a way that model trains and TV shows are not. I have never been seriously judged for not being into a specific hobby the way I am constantly judged for being fat. If people were talking this much about model trains or TV shows, I would feel much more comfortable changing the subject or asking them to tone it down, because nobody’s going to think that I don’t want to hear about model trains because I am a disgusting, stupid, lazy, horrible person.

          1. Aleta*

            Strongly agreed. Dieting/fitness/food is moralized in a way model trains profoundly aren’t. It’s not even remotely in the same category. There is absolutely no way they are talking about this in a morally neutral way when at least one person is doing a very very extreme diet, and the other people are not immediately pushing back on that diet. There’s just no way.

      3. Clawfoot*

        This would be me. And if people complain to me about it or remark on it, I would answer cheerfully, “I always bring in treats the day after I’m subjected to a conversation about weight loss. If you want me to stop bringing in treats, stop talking about dieting and workouts around my desk.”

      4. kittymommy*

        I would be tempted to eat said doughnuts or cupcakes or candy at my desk, in front of them, every time they brought it up. I would also not be subtle about it.

        1. Quandong*

          As a fat person who no longer eats any food in front of colleagues due to food policing comments (trust me when I say the environment is dysfunctional and fatphobic) –

          this approach would backfire Spectacularly and result in the fat person drawing unwanted judgement on themselves and their food choices.]

          It may work for people who aren’t perceived as fat by their workmates. But not for fat people.

    9. Diana Prince (not Wonder Woman)*

      (this is not my normal user name but I need to continue with the anonymity)

      I have totally stopped following a friend on social media because her feed became all about “fitspo” and some disordered eating. I feel your pain, and I am sorry you can’t get away from it at work.

    10. HowAnnoying*

      Could you wear headphones at your desk to help drown out some of the noise? I think being able to ignore some of it might help a little even if you can’t avoid the lunch room talk..

    11. Natalie*

      For whatever it’s worth, they sound tedious as all hell even before the feeling judged part.

      Can you wear headphones while you work? Even if it was just white noise or nature sounds it might drown them out a bit.

      1. Nonni*

        +1.

        People aren’t talking about their fitness at you. People are just talking about their fitness. I would try and think of it as if they were discussing a TV show you didn’t watch and weren’t interested in, or a hobby you had no insight into and couldn’t understand why it was interesting. Mentally translate “calories eaten” into “dollars spent on model trains” or something, and laugh at their ridiculous obsession.

    12. sub rosa for this*

      I’m a big person too, and I used to get this sort of crap at work, when I was doing admin work years ago. It was AWFUL. (I’ll be honest; the only way I got away from it was to get out of admin jobs.)

      My g0-to response when someone would ask me if I had lost weight was always a wide-eyed look of horror accompanied by, “Oh my God, I hope not!”

      It generally stops them in their tracks, because it is not an expected response. If it seems like they might keep engaging, I’d generally add on a “Wow, that would be terrible,” as I was walking away.

      Anyway, wish I could help, but please know that you have my support and my sympathy.

    13. EnfysNest*

      I was dealing with this sort of thing in my friend group recently. Several of my friends are dieting or being very restrictive about the types of food that they will eat, and they’re getting the results that they want, and I’m happy for them in that respect, but it’s not a good topic for me and it makes me feel really uncomfortable and guilty any time the food conversations start. At one get-together, I finally had to just say “Guys, I’m really glad this is working for you, but it’s a hard subject for me and I’d really appreciate it if we could minimize the diet conversations when I’m around and talk about absolutely anything else.” And they were very understanding and they really have minimized the diet conversations (although this is not the only factor in that, as we’ve had other things going on in the group).

      But that’s in a friend group, not an office environment, so I don’t know if you would feel comfortable being that straightforward or if they would be kind enough to actually abide by such a request or not.

      I definitely share your frustration with the topic being so continuous, though!

    14. Chuck*

      ugh, I feel your pain on this. :/ it seems like every staff meeting at my company turns into Weight Watchers. (Not an exaggeration, my org has a chapter and most of the other admins are in it.)

      One thing that has helped me is to just interrupt with work stuff. It helps cut down on the chitchat and get everyone back to work. But it doesn’t always work, so I will also be watching this thread.

    15. Kes*

      Ugh, that does sound over the top and obnoxious. Not sure you can really tell them not to talk about health/fitness/diet, though – as others have suggested, I’d use headphones in your cubicle to block out the conversation and just avoid those discussions otherwise

    16. Everdene*

      Oh man! I would hate this too. My weight is fairly stable(I think) and I regularly swim but I avoid going on about this stuff because it is dull! In a previous women-heavy office January was hell as all anyone wanted to talk about was diets. That kind of chat and assigning moral values to food makes me want to defiantly eat everything, which can be problematic as I’ll eat to make a point rather than hunger/desire.

      I wish I had advice for you but I just ended up moving jobs (this wasn’t the reason!). Sorry you are dealing with this.

    18. CheeryO*

      Ugh, that kind of talk is so tedious. I wonder if it’ll naturally peter out over time? 500 calories per day is not exactly sustainable. We had some obsessive juice fasters in our office for a while, and that lasted all of about three months.

      Honestly, I’d pop in earbuds whenever those conversations start, or just leave your desk. You can take a prop with you (notebook and pen, or an empty water bottle) if you feel like you’re being conspicuous, but I’d bet that no one would notice – they sound a wee bit self-absorbed.

      1. Aleta*

        I definitely agree that 500 calories is utterly shocking levels of unsustainable, but if someone has actually gotten to the point where they’re trying to eat 500 calories a day, when they crash and burn/are hospitalized, they’re just going to move on to something else unless they get eating disorder treatments. SERIOUSLY, 500 CALORIES? While also working out!!! Everybody’s bodies are different, but good GOD I’m the size of a short, gangly twelve year old and I need at least 2,500 on work out days.

      2. Anonymous fatty*

        The 500 calories guy is definitely in it for the long run. He’s been a fitness buff for as long as I’ve known him (years), but he didn’t talk about it as much before the new fitness buff employees started. I’m not sure why he feels the need to keep himself on such a strict diet, but it seems like almost every day, he eats something off his diet and complains about how he’ll have to make up for it tomorrow. I think he alternates 500 calorie days with 1500 calorie days during the week, and I’m not sure what he eats on the weekends because he’s not at work to talk about it.

        I do suspect that our manager is going to lose interest eventually. He has a new baby coming soon and I doubt he’ll have time to work out with Mr. 500 calories every day after that. And maybe that means he’ll have something else to talk about.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          If new baby talk is more palatable to you than diet talk, I’d totally encourage that switch. If you’re manager is talking fitness near you, try a non-sequitor subject change. “Oh, George, I’ve been meaning to ask you how Wilhelmina is doing. When’s her due date again? Have you guys picked a theme for the nursery yet?” Act like it’s totally normal, even if it feels awkward the first few times. Maybe that’s just the thing your office mates need to break their conversational rut.

        2. Gumby*

          I’d be – at least mentally – calling Mr. 500 calories Michel (from Gilmore Girls) except even when he was literally telling people to drop dead he was kind of charming somehow.

          Just realize that Mr. 500 calories is *not* healthy. He absolutely has a disordered relationship with food even if it is one that is socially acceptable. It might help to reframe it that way in your mind.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I was thinking this as I read a long.
        When my husband was first diagnosed they put him on an 1800 calorie diet. I did it with him so I could see what it was like. It. was. misery. I cannot imagine 500 calories. A family member was put on a 600 calorie diet. Lunch consisted of an apple. This scared my husband into adhering to his 1800 calorie plan because he did not want to hear about a 600 calorie plan.

        I don’t see how a person can eat 500 calories a day and hold down a job.

        It does not seem that they are saying things to you directly. However, they if they did, I would just say, “You getting enough protein, you sound tired.” Or you could inquire the same about vitamins and minerals. Just turn it back on them and what they are doing. I know I get busy thinking about how to defend myself and I forget to step back and look at a broader picture. If they sound cranky then mention fatigue and express concern that they may be tired. Likewise, you could say, “I am not sure that 500 calories a day is healthy for a person working full time.” (I’m not a doc but I have dealt with enough weight loss situations that I am convinced it’s impossible to hold down a job with that few calories for any length of time.)

        From what you say here they are punishing themselves the next day if they fail on any given day. In other words, their self-talk is terrible. They are beating themselves into compliance. This could be a yellow flag indicating failure ahead.

        Just a point of curiosity: If they are actually following the diet you should be seeing changes in their hair and their skin. At 500 calories a day you should be seeing some weight loss (water weight?). And these changes should come up pretty fast. If you are not noticing changes then they probably are not doing their diets very well, if at all. I am mentioning this so you can quietly AND smugly know what is actually going on.

        1. Aleta*

          Big +1. I have a bunch of intersecting health issues that make getting enough calories difficult. I cannot imagine functioning as a person on 500 calories. I HAVE done (and sometimes still do if it’s particularly bad) 1500 calories, and it SUCKS. THAT was barely doable with a part time job.

          But even if they’re not actually following it (because they’re bodies are likely going “excuse me what are you doing absolutely not EAT SOMETHING RIGHT NOW”), they still think it’s a good thing to try, and that’s going to reflect in how they talk about these sorts of things and how they treat people who AREN’T trying their ridiculous hospital-maybe-die-fast-track diet.

        2. Anonymous fatty*

          I went through a time when I was a teenager that I tried to starve myself to lose weight. I tried restricting myself to 500 calories per day for a while, and I could not sustain it, even as a teenage girl. I was exhausted all the time, my grades went down, and my athletic abilities suffered (I played sports at the time, and my coaches pressured me to lose weight to get better at sports, but starving myself had the opposite effect), so I am also surprised that this is at all feasible for an adult man who works out every day. I can’t say I’ve noticed any physical changes, but I don’t pay much attention to my coworkers’ bodies. The guy shaves his head, so I wouldn’t be able to see any differences in his hair.

          Whether or not it’s healthy is really none of my business, because his diet is between himself and his doctor, but he (and the other dieters) kind of makes it everyone’s business by talking about it all the time. The talk is all focused on how little they eat, in a bragging way, with other people stating admiration for those who eat incredibly low amounts of calories. I have a coworker who is a breastfeeding mother and often participates in these conversations (admiring him for his restrictive diet), and I’ve noticed that she feels the need to defend eating what most people consider normal meals because she has to eat because she’s breastfeeding. Nobody has criticized her food choices or her weight, and she actively chooses to participate in these conversations (sometimes she even starts the conversations), but it seems like it’s making her feel self-conscious about her diet, too.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Great point. It’s not the topic that is bothering you, it’s the constant chatting about anything at all.

      2. Work Wardrobe*

        Yeah, that would be me… or maybe “Time for a new topic, doncha think?” Then when they look at me in astonishment: “It’s ALL you talk about, and to be honest, it’s distracting as hell. Trying to work here!”

        Of course, after 50, I lost most of my filters…

    20. Brownie*

      Honestly, your best bet may be to treat it as a generic no-boundaries issue with scripts like “Hey guys, can you move your conversation somewhere else please? I really need to concentrate on this work.” The topic may be weight, but the behavior itself is of the no-boundaries variety that shows up a lot in AAM letters and posts. And the kind of boundary violating behavior the manager is showing is a giant red flag saying “get out, get out now”, especially since he seems to be not only condoning the crossing of professional boundaries, but actively partaking in bulldozing through them. Worst case scenario: He turns into a weight fanatic and decides to make you the office pet project. Start planning now how to handle that, be it a resignation notice, copies of the Minnesota Starvation Study taped to the stall walls in the bathrooms, or becoming the “No weight talk in my hearing” commander of the cube farm.

      Solidarity fistbump. Been there, done that, wanted to sink through the floor myself. Never could get the weight talk to stop, but was able sometimes to redirect any comments directly aimed at myself with “The topic of weight is between my doctor and myself” sometimes followed with “You’re not my doctor, please drop it.” Now I’m in an office where talking about weight like that is considered unprofessional and it’s so nice not to hear any of that anymore.

      1. Anonymous fatty*

        I actually have a variety of sarcastic/snappy comebacks at the ready if anyone dares to talk to me about my weight, such as:

        – What? I’m fat? Why didn’t anyone tell me?!
        – Wait, are you saying that I should eat LESS and exercise MORE to lose weight? Crap, all this time I thought it was eat MORE and exercise LESS!
        – Being fat is unhealthy? OMG, I had no idea! This is literally the first time I have ever heard about obesity-related health issues.
        – Wow, it must be embarrassing for you to have someone as fat as me running circles around you on the job (this was for a job involving a lot of physical labor, which was difficult for me but I worked my ass off to be the top performer anyway).

        But I feel much less comfortable asking people not to talk about their own weight/diet/workouts. Normally, people don’t try to include me in these conversations, and I feel like it’s an unspoken deal that we will just ignore each other. I won’t comment on their weight-obsessed conversations and they won’t comment on my weight. I’m afraid that if I say something, that will throw this “deal” out the window. I can imagine them rolling their eyes and saying, “Oh, wait, we can’t talk about this in front of Jane because she can’t even stand to hear someone say the word ‘diet'” every time I enter the room.

        And although people don’t usually talk about my weight to my face, I know they say things behind my back. I’ve heard people making fun of my weight when they didn’t know I could hear, and I can only assume they say similar things when I actually can’t hear, and I’m afraid that if I say anything about these conversations, it will just make them talk about me more.

        But seriously, I could hardly believe my ears when coworker asked our manager how much he weighs, and I was even more shocked when the manager answered, right in the middle of the office for everyone to hear.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          I guess I am the only one in this thread who doesn’t see what’s so awful about this, they’re talking about something they have in common and may die down eventually.

          To me it’s just something to talk about—my mgr wears a back brace for his posture, I have diabetes and take shots, my boss had a kidney transplant, some staff are/were personal trainers etc. We all have something going on. I guess it also helps that it’s a big office, with diverse people and no one is rude or mean about size/health. But it doesn’t sound like anyone In The original post is being nasty to anyone either.

          1. Aleta*

            Because this isn’t just normal work out shop talk. This is EXTREME dieting. 500 calories a day is ABSURD. Even alternating it with 1500 days isn’t that much better – 1500 is also extremely low! For reference, I’m TINY, get mistaken for an elementary school student if I’m not wearing fitted clothes, and my baseline is around 2000 a day. And it doesn’t sound like they’re adding more calories when they exercise, which is even more completely ridiculous.

            One does not go to those sorts of extremes voluntarily without some extremely messed up ideas about food and weight. Not only is that going to bleed over in how they treat others, but it’s going to manifest in how they’re talking about their own very extreme diets. That’s going to be deeply upsetting to listen to.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              It used to sound strange to me too. And 500 sounds extreme.

              I don’t know if this is a good example, but I am in several active Diabetes/weight loss groups and Intermittent fasting (IF) and Keto are the big things in these groups. Some of the IF people discuss their experience of doing extended fasts for days at a time. For the most part these were medically obese and did so under supervision of a Dr..and they have results and have hte research to back it up.
              If you’d asked me 6 months ago that extended fasting was a thing. I would have been WTF and angry too.

              I haven’t done any of that yet, but I’m coming around and being more comfortable with that idea. So I guess things that used to seem extreme, don’t seem as bad to me anymore. Idk.

              Anyhow, I know that was veering off topic. I feel like any topic that’s constantly on gets annoying, whether it was something on TV, the news (oh god the news) or health.

          2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            I’m kind of with you on this.

            I get it, food/dieting/etc. can be a loaded subject for a lot of people. That being said, it’s a shared interest between 2 coworkers. It sounds like they are being a bore with the topic, but it also sounds like the OP is also really sensitive about these issues.

            Mr. 500 calorie guy is likely not hitting that very often (although I have heard that fasting is a thing), so concern over that is probably a red herring. Boss is a new convert, he could be just as boring about golf, model trains, or yoga… Just think of all the new baby stuff the OP will be subjected to soon.

            Last but not least, it could always be worse. It doesn’t sound like either of them are into crossfit… now that’s a cult! (This last bit is a little tongue in cheek based on the crossfit stereotypes and hate).

            I say all of this as someone who once told a very vocal dieting coworker that she was on the diet not me and knock off the comments about my lunch. Those comments were very much directed at me and not general chat between others.

          3. Kelly AF*

            Weight, diet, and exercise are not neutral topics. We can claim all we want to that they should be, but they’re not. Being overweight is stigmatized in the US, and eating as little as possible is treated as a moral issue. Consequently, talk of weight/weight loss/dieting at work is very, very fraught for a lot of people.

            And you’re right that it may not be intentionally nasty, but that doesn’t make it easy to deal with.

            1. Washi*

              I think it’s so tricky because it’s extremely fraught for some people, including me, and yet it’s still not seen that way by the vast majority of people. If I asked people to cut down on all the dieting talk around me, I think there would be genuine bafflement over why it’s hard for me to hear lots of comments about calories, good/bad foods, etc.

              I was kind of on the other end when I worked in hospice – I got really used to talking about death and dying, and was learning a lot, and needed to be mindful that that was not a topic everyone wants to discuss.

            2. Nervous Accountant*

              I get where you’re coming from on this and I don’t disagree. I’ve dealt with weight/self esteem/health issues all my life and have been trying to work around them. But at hte same time, I’ve just stopped giving AF. Yeah, I have my issues but I’m not hte only one, and I know people who are “healthY” and skinny don’t have perfect lives (this is my own issues here talking). OTOH if I was in an office of only 5 people and they were ALL fitness buffs and looked like it, yeah I’d feel super uncomfortable and maybe even hate all the diet talk.

              But like someone said above, they’re talking about their own shared interests, not in a way to make OP feel ashamed. Like, I struggle with conceiving and having a baby but if random coworkers were talking about being pregnant, I just can’t imagine telling them to stop, if just put headphones on if it really bugged me.

          4. EnfysNest*

            Content warning here for specific feelings around eating disorders.

            For me personally, I struggle a lot just hearing about the topic, especially continuously. In high school, I came close to having an eating disorder and then felt a lot of shame because I *hadn’t* gone through with it. And I’ve had a few more occasions throughout my life where I came close to that again. I have a fairly active life, but I’m still slightly “overweight”. And while, sure, I’d like to lose a few pounds, it’s better for me to be a little overweight than to hurt myself by stopping eating altogether, which I know from my personal history is a significant risk for me. Any time diets become the primary topic for a while, especially extreme diets, I feel that same guilt from high school about the fact that I couldn’t and can’t just quit eating altogether and I feel ashamed of my weight and I feel guilty and sick about every bite of food that I take. I feel like a failure because if *they* can manage a 500 calorie diet (in this case), then why can’t I? I start thinking that I should just “try harder” and then I come right back to the edge of those eating disorders and I’m miserable and at risk until I can manage to stop letting it consume my thoughts.

            Weight and food have so much more emotion and cultural “morality” attached to them that they can very easily become a sensitive subject for people. A back brace or kidney transplant aren’t the same because they don’t have those moralities and judgments (from others or from oneself) attached. No one is listening to your boss talk about their kidney transplant and thinking “Oh, gosh, I’m a terrible person for not also getting a kidney transplant and everyone thinks I’m ugly and lazy because my current kidney isn’t as attractive as Boss’ kidney.”

        2. Brownie*

          That they’re making fun of you is another huge red flag. At this point if you want to keep the Deal the only option might be to disengage from them as much as possible through headphones and leaving the area when conversations about weight pop up. But it’s going to wear you down and take a toll, possibly to burnout or breakdown, to have to handle that every day knowing that they think nothing of doing that.

          There are some ways you could fight back without technically breaking the Deal, but depending on the workplace culture there might be backlash or side-effects. In my experience when it’s a weight/food competition giving folks something else to compete about will lessen the weight/food talk. Posting health bulletins in common areas where the subject is high blood pressure, cholesterol, mental health, or other non-weight things could give you a conversational out from weight, like “I only ate chicken and broccoli for two days!” “Oh wow, that must be lowering your cholesterol, I didn’t know you had a problem with that” as well as giving folks something not-weight to compete about. Heck, go as far as decorating your cube with weightlifting, swimming, or other sports which don’t glamorize weight loss and get the “I need the calories to deadlift three of you every day” comments ready. Imply in subtle ways that their focus on weight is beneath you as you are far more educated about what health means than they are. The casual “Oh dear, you only ate how much? I can’t believe your doctor would ever authorize that knowing that so few calories can starve your organs and cause permanent damage” responses showing care and concern for their well-being, but coming from a direction they never expected. Respond as if it’s a competition where you’re erasing the goal line altogether. If there’s no competition then they’ll stop talking about it and move on to something else.

          You might have to learn to deal with the extreme openness your manager is showing. On one hand it’s nice he doesn’t feel he has to hide his weight. On the other hand it feels almost invasive, a too-personal piece of information. Specifics in regards to body stuff in a professional setting make me uncomfortable regardless of what it’s about, so I’ve had to learn to suppress the initial wince of TMI and either grab for the headphones, do a subject change, or say “oh crud, what time is it? I need to get something done right now” to get away, especially when my manager starts talking about what yesterday’s burrito did to his gut. Again.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Oh no, they make fun of her? I am so sorry, I genuinely missed that in The initial post, I totally retract my statement. Yeah shaming/making fun is not cool at all!

            1. Anonymous fatty*

              Only behind my back. They don’t say anything about my weight to my face, but based on what I’ve heard them say behind my back (and what I’ve heard them say about other people behind their backs), I know what they’re thinking.

    21. Independent George*

      I feel your pain. I think your coworkers’ behaviors sound super unhealthy FWIW. I’m really into distance running myself, but I find nothing more annoying than people who have to overshare their fitness/wellness journey with the world. I get it, it’s like you’ve found Jesus and you want to shout it from the rooftops, but it’s not having the positive effect on others you think it should. It’s the main reason I’ve chosen not to share that part of my personal life at work. When I used to talk marathon running with a couple of fellow runner coworkers, I grew tired of the snarky comments from others and stopped. I’ve never been one to talk diet though; personally, I love food and couldn’t deal with your coworkers.

      Is it an option to wear noise canceling headphones or request to move desks? It kind of sounds like since the boss is in on it, it’s encouraging the behavior and they are congregating around you. Maybe physically removing yourself would help. Overall, I’m sorry this is your experience. Hopefully their diet/fitness obsession dies out as these things often do.

    22. anonymoushiker*

      Not the same situation but I had my manager/grand manager comment asking if I’d lost weight recently and my deer-in-the-headlights response was “I have an eating disorder I’m recovering from so I don’t know and don’t care” or something to that effect. It confused them for a moment but I exited (probably not as gracefully as I could have) the room. If I were in that situation, I might broach with the manager that I was finding it distracting to have all of the diet talk going on when I was trying to focus on work.

    23. Tricksie*

      My daughter has been dealing with anorexia the last 1.75 years (she’s doing VERY WELL NOW, thank all the Lords of Kobol) and it has been a horrific, all-consuming, stressful thing for my entire family. I’ve become very hard line about not tolerating talk about dieting, fat, “bad foods,” etc etc. At this point I know way too much about eating disorders to be comfortable with that kind of talk–it actually makes me extremely anxious. Like eating disorders are SERIOUS. Anorexia is the most fatal of all mental illnesses. I know people whose children have DIED because of their eating disorders.

      I say, Someone close to me is struggling with an eating disorder. Can you please not talk about this around me?

      From time to time and depending on the situation and the people, I might say more. I might mention our whole society has disordered thinking around bodies and weight, that food doesn’t have moral goodness/badness, how obsession with calories and dieting leads to eating disorders with people who have certain neurobiological characteristics, etc. Or I talk about how all studies have shown that 95%+ of dieting doesn’t work in the long run. Or I’ll say, I choose not to spend 80% of my time struggling to weigh 10% less, thanks.

      1. Washi*

        Yeah, once you’ve seen how unhealthy and toxic the diet talk can be, the way people body-shame themselves and others, make foods good or bad, demonize all things fat, you can’t really un-see it. I hate hearing more than like a sentence or two about people’s weight-loss diets, and I mainly keep my feelings to myself, but sometimes I just have to change the subject because I find the whole thing so deeply disturbing. (I realize this is an unpopular stance, unfortunately, but OP, I totally feel you!)

    24. CandyFloss*

      You can’t stop them from talking about this. I recommend putting in ear buds and listening to music, even if it seems obvious. You can just say “it helps me concentrate if people are chatting” or something like that. if they aren’t worried about how their boring conversation affects you, don’t worry about how you chose to deal with it. Offices are shared spaces and some level of accommodation is necessary for everyone to manage. If I didn’t have my ear buds to rely on when something was getting to me, I’d go nuts!

    25. Library Land*

      I see people responding to when they are outside of your cube, but you also mention waiting for meetings etc., can you adjust your time so that you show up only moments before the meeting starts? Decrease your interaction with them to as little time as possible?

    26. Quandong*

      You may like to read this post from Captain Awkward, and the comments, if you haven’t seen it before:
      https://captainawkward.com/2011/12/14/question-152-talking-about-diets-the-watching-paint-dry-of-our-times/

      I’m so sorry you are surrounded by people in your workplace who are either oblivious of the effect their talk has on others, or who are actively being unkind and fatphobic. It doesn’t matter what they intend. It has an effect on your wellbeing and creates stress for you.

    27. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh! People who “get into” fitness seem to evangelize it in the same way the newly “born again” religious do. And it doesn’t help that many workplaces are encouraging this behavior with all their wellness plans and health incentives. In my mind neither belong in the office.
      I don’t have any ideas to avoid other yhan headsets or a general “Hey guys, you’re getting a little loud can you please keep it down or talk in the break room thanks” if it’s distracting your work.

  11. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom was my last.

    I got a new job, and tomorrow is my last day. I’m really excited about my new job, and it’s going to supply an even bigger cast of characters.

    I was running an experiment that Farquad ruined yesterday. I started telling people two weeks ago that I was leaving, after I’d turned in my notice to Boss. We’d talked about it in the newsroom very openly, but I hadn’t told Wakeen. I suspected that he hadn’t listened, and wanted to see how long it would take him to notice I was gone. Farquad said something about it this morning, and Wakeen was SHOCKED. He couldn’t believe I was leaving, and had no idea when. I thought Violet’s eyes were going to roll back in her head.

    Wakeen keeps falling asleep at his desk. His head drops down to his chest, and then he starts snoring. Like, really loud, and it’s happened at least three times this week. Watching Farquad find out was funny.

    My last week has been Fergus free. He went out of town for Thanksgiving, and then is taking some time off, which just means he comes in at night when everyone is gone, but doesn’t do any work.

    I thought I’d be really sad to leave, but if I hadn’t already turned in my notice, this week would have driven me to it. Our printer ran out of ink. I had ordered more two weeks ago, and figured it was in Boss’s office, like they usually do. Nope. I called our IT dept., it’s not there. They didn’t read the PO that I sent, and had to get it overnighted. It would have been fine, had they not continually insisted that the fault was on my end when it was NOT.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Thanks! I probably won’t post the next couple of weeks, just cause I’ll be settling in, but I’ll be blogging about it, and I’m sure there will be all sorts of different crazy.

        1. Auntie Social*

          Yes, but this was a special kind of crazy. Good luck in the new job, though—I’m sure your mental health will be soooo much better!

          1. Bee's Knees*

            Thanks! And I seem to attract the crazy, so I’m not too worried! But I will have an office to myself to bask in the quiet, which I’m really looking forward to.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I will miss them too — keep it up, even if the crazies aren’t as crazy. I’m sure you can find something — and it’s a great writing style to read!

    3. Emily S.*

      Congratulations, and good luck with your new job! That is so exciting about having your own office.

      I’ll look forward to hearing from you in a few weeks. In the meantime, I’ve bookmarked your blog. Have a lovely weekend!

    4. Woodswoman*

      Congratulations on your new job! I’m glad to hear you’ll still be blogging and I’m eager to read how everything unfolds. And here’s a fist bump from a fellow blogger whose site has been dormant for a while but is amping up again in coming days.

  12. NotMeIV*

    Any ideas on a supervisor who has no idea how to do your job (say, computer programming) – “I don’t need to know how to program, I know how to supervise.” So, if there is a technical question, supervisor can’t help and often seems angry that I’m even asking a question. Is this reasonable? Thanks.

    1. LayoffLimbo*

      They should be able and happy to direct you to someone who can help you if they can’t answer it themselves. They’re being ridiculous.

      1. LKW*

        This. “I need to talk to someone who can provide me this information. Is there someone in the organization that you think might have this information? Is this something I can outsource and what information do you need to in order to hire these skills?”

    2. Dragoning*

      Well, I mean…if you know he doesn’t have the answer, why are you asking him? I don’t know if it’s reasonable that he’s getting angry at you for asking, but it doesn’t seem productive.

    3. fposte*

      It’s not inherently wrong for a manager not to have the technical knowledge their reports need to have. Do you know what your supervisor would like you to do when you have a technical question?

        2. NotMeIV*

          And I’ve never had a supervisor before who wasn’t knowledgable about what s/he was supervising. Really, I was just wondering.

          1. fposte*

            In general, the higher you go, the more impossible it would be for a manager to have the expertise of all the people under them.

          2. goto 1*

            I’ve never had a supervisor who knew anything about what I do. Having one I could ask technical questions to sounds amazing. As it is, I have to explain why Thing X takes so long to do, to explain what I spent the last 3 weeks doing.

          3. Windchime*

            I’ve been programming for 18 years, and my current supervisor is the only manager I’ve ever had who *did* know anything about programming. Usually, though, there was a lead or at least a programmer more senior to me that could help me out. I did (and do) a lot of Googling. It is nice, though, to have a manager who understands what I’m talking about when I’m explaining a problem.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Your supervisor’s reality is not mine.
          You’re going to have to become a sleuth and find someone in the company who *can* answer questions.
          Or “discuss best possible solutions” if that’s not the way to go. If nothing else, you may have to spend a lot of time on internet forums for your discipline!

    4. Bees in my Socks*

      Ugh. I had a manager like this. “I don’t even know what you’re doing or how to do it”. Okay, genius, then get out of my way and stop objecting to proposed changes? (System was and continues to be a mess). Generally this whole place is toxic so that’s just a fun addition.

      He should know enough about what you’re doing to understand how/why you do it and he should be able to point you to resources for assistance.

    5. CheeryO*

      I think this is probably fairly common. My boss is great with big picture stuff but doesn’t always have an answer to the nitty-gritty technical stuff, and I don’t expect him to since that’s not his job. Do you have any more experienced coworkers who you can go to with questions?

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      90% of what I do, my boss doesn’t know how to do. Could she learn how to use the specialized software? Probably, but she’d the last person I would ask a technical question of. I think if your boss can’t answer your question than it is your responsibility to find someone who can. Google, forums, or other coworkers are going to be your best contact points on this sort of thing.

      1. Kelly AF*

        Yeah, my boss is a smart, awesome woman, and she’s fairly savvy about analytics, but she asks me questions and I figure out how to get the answers from the data. If there’s some ambiguity to be resolved, I’ll ask her — but like, in terms of “here are the avenues we could take, and here are the consequences of making assumption X or using simplification Y.” If I have a technical question about how to program something in SAS or R, she would have no clue. I ask one of the other analysts or I google the question.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      It is incredibly common for managers and supervisors to have less technical knowledge than the people they manage or supervise. That being said, they should either know how to get the information or provide appropriate resources that you can get the information you need.

      If you ask your supervisor, “How do I do $X” when you both know that he doesn’t have an answer, it feels a little like you’re play gotcha with him. It might go over better if you ask your supervisor, “I’m stumped when it at $X and google isn’t any help. Do we have a $X expert I can bounce some questions off of?” or “I need information on $Y. What resources do we have to get me that information?”

      1. NotMeIV*

        Our previous supervisor was one of the best programmers God ever created, so it feels really strange to be supervised by someone who doesn’t know what we do (doesn’t even know which languages we use) and commits us to projects that we are unable to do.

        1. Competent Commenter*

          Ah, that last part seems key. My supervisor doesn’t know how to do my job, but she doesn’t commit us to projects we’re unable to do.

          I’d look elsewhere for technical advice, as people are saying. But if your boss is setting you all up for failure because of lack of knowledge, then I’d try to frame my conversations as, “I want to be sure we can deliver on what you promise because we want to look great as a team. How can we best work together to make sure we do that? Or if there are projects we are required to take on and you don’t have control of that, can we commit to coming up with plans to bring in additional technical assistance?” Ideally your supervisor would be running projects by you beforehand.

          Alison proposes great language for these kinds of situations so your supervisor knows you’re there to have her back and make her and all of you look good, not to undermine.

        2. Autumnheart*

          I personally don’t need my manager to be able to do my job, but I agree that it’s really helpful and effective when I have a manager who *has done* my job fairly recently in their career. I’m a designer and I’ve had managers who did have a design background, and ones who didn’t. Right now I have a manager who does have a design background, and in fact his boss also has a design background, which is GREAT. Trying to plan projects around the design process is always a little squishy and hard to define, and it’s really nice to have people in authority who can make decisions for our team. They have a much better understanding of what our needs are, and can speak with authority to other stakeholders. We don’t have to convince them first and then have them play telephone to other stakeholders.

    8. Admin of Sys*

      I actually think this is a much better situation than the opposite, where highly technical people who don’t know how to supervise get shoved into management positions with no skill or training on how to manage. And honestly, the better you are at your job, the more likely it will be that your manager does not have your technical skills.
      In a lot of technical jobs, a supervisors position should be to make sure you are doing what you say you are doing, that jobs are happening on schedule, that higher ups are pleased, and that all the other project manager ‘stuff’ is managed.
      I get that you’re missing the ‘tech lead’ position where you ask someone more skilled than you for their input, but as your career advances, there are going to be a jobs where you are, in fact, the most knowledgeable person at what you do – which is why they hired you.
      That said, your manager should be capable of helping you choose between conflicting priorities. For example, if you are tasked to speed up the ui for llama grooming orders, and you find a way to do that but it involves either a major architecture change or a security issue, you should be able to go to her and say ‘I’ve got a solution for the problem, but it will result in either x or y – are either of those acceptable, or should I keep looking for other options?’

    9. Sleepytime Tea*

      It is completely true that a supervisor/manager/whatever doesn’t need to know how to actually do your job in order to be a good leader. And there are people in leadership positions who know exactly how to do your job and will be terrible supervisors.

      What YOUR supervisor doesn’t know how to do is, ironically, supervise, since if they aren’t actually assisting you here. If you need resources, in this case, someone who can assist you with a technical question, it is their job to help you find that resource if you are unable to find it on your own. As someone who has a technical job, Google is your best friend. Always. First and foremost. There is an entire world of people out there doing the same technical things and someone has already had the problem you are running into, and they have probably put it on the internet and it has been solved. Next are your coworkers. People who do your job as well, or similar jobs, who have different experience than you do. When that fails, you go to your supervisor, who in your case you know is not going to be able to answer your technical question, and explain what steps you went through to find an answer, and ask if they know of anyone else you could reach out to. Another team, a SME, another manager, Bob who used to be in your department but was promoted, whatever.

      So yes, it is reasonable for a supervisor not to be able to answer job specific questions, because they don’t do your job, they do their job. The caveat of all that being that they then actually have to do their job, which in large part includes supporting you.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have other resources or coworkers?!

      I see your frustration but I’m always in positions I’m often found without a soul to help me out. Including my boss because I’m the accountant, not him. So we can find answers elsewhere, even if it’s outsourced to a contacted CPA or lawyer. Or it’s a “try until it works or just leave it” situation.

      It’s ridiculous she can’t even find an outsourced way of helping you out.

    11. Zennish*

      If they don’t know how to find resources to answer job-related questions, they don’t in fact know how to supervise. Part of being a supervisor is making sure your reports have access to the information needed to do their jobs.

    12. periwinkle*

      My manager can’t do what I do, or what anyone else on the team can do. And that’s fine. She knows how to be a people manager and how to corral resources, pitch ideas, filter incoming requests, deflect unreasonable and irrelevant requests. She is the champion for the team.

      We also have a team lead. He knows how to do everything and is always ready to share what he knows or help us figure out who else knows the answer. I’ve never been on a technical-type team that did not have a lead!

      It sounds like your team needs a senior person to act as the technical lead. Perhaps suggest that to your supervisor? It would divert those technical questions away from them (and toward someone who knows how to find the answers), and everyone will probably be a lot happier.

  13. 404 Error*

    Can my vacation requests be denied because my boss thinks I’m not doing a good job? I requested my dad’s birthday (over a month away) off and my boss sent me an email saying I can’t take it off because he thinks I need to work harder. Not an official PIP, BTW.

    1. Graciosa*

      You don’t have to be on a PIP to have vacation denied. It’s pretty normal to assess vacation requests based on workload and whether or not the person can be spared in light of business needs.

      I do think there are limits to that – for example, a chronically understaffed company is acting in bad faith to use that as an excuse to never allow anyone to use the vacation benefits they were promised – but that doesn’t seem to be a factor in your situation.

      I think your best move here would be to make sure you’re tied out with your boss about expectations for your role and figuring out if or how you can meet them – not to get vacation, but to ensure you’re doing what is needed in your job.

      Good luck.

      1. 404 Error*

        I’m reflecting on that. I see things I could definitely do better at. I’ve also been raising warnings about this project for months now, and he’s been ignoring them until this week. The general tone of our conversations makes me think he’s taking his frustrations out on me because he can’t on the external vendors and other departments who’ve been stonewalling us. I’ve had misgivings about this job since I started about six months ago. I’m figuring out how much of that is attributable to me and how much is attributable to my boss here.

        This probably isn’t something which I can debate with my boss, but there’s a paper trail of me explaining that a bunch of people we need have been completely incommunicado for months and it’s been blocking our progress. I’m reflecting on how much of this is attributable to passiveness from me and how much is this being a problem I wasn’t given tools to solve.

    2. Murphy*

      If it’s that he thinks you’re not getting enough work done (work quantity), then I think denying your request is within your boss’s power to do. But if it’s because he thinks your work isn’t good enough (quality) I think that’s a bit murkier. Denying a vacation request shouldn’t be a punitive thing.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, they can, but I agree with PB it is not good move. I might be concerned if this happened and really think about your work and how you are doing. This isn’t a great sign.

      3. LKW*

        Yup. If he has a problem with your work product, making you stay in the office may or may not resolve it.

        I think it’s time to look for a new job. The guy sounds like he wants to parent you, not manage you.

    4. Cat Fan*

      Do you have any idea what he’s talking about? If not, you should ask him. You can say you’ve given his comment some thought and would like to understand what you could be doing better. Is it that you’re not meeting certain quotas, or you are not being thorough enough, or something else? If you’re interested in doing a better job he may grant your vacation day.

    5. Ali G*

      Also this is why you shouldn’t tell your boss what you need time off for. Just say “I need to take X day off” and don’t go into detail.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A single day off was rejected?????? Unless it’s like Black Friday and you work at Target, this is outrageous. I don’t care if you’re struggling or not, denying a day off breeds resentment and turnover. What a terrible idea.

      Yes. It can be denied for whatever reason. How do they handle sick leave? This guy stinks, call in sick next time. Not this day though, the rejection will get you into a deeper mess. But next time you want a day off.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Not sure if this would be appropriate in your setting. Perhaps you can ask what specifically he would like you to do because you were surprised that your day off request was denied due to performance. Tell him that you would prefer to know upfront so you can fix it. You might also say that nothing in your orientation/handbook/whatever indicated that vacation days were tied to performance. You were led to believe that x days of PTO was part of your package upon hire.

  14. DaniCalifornia*

    Every time I think I set the bar lower at my toxic job someone crawls underneath it. I think if I buried it my supervisor would learn to tunnel. We had a meeting awhile back to discuss getting ready for busy season. It actually went well, and supervisor said they’d bring up my ideas to our boss. Well I guess supervisor decided to meet with boss this week and for some reason invited in the new admin (also their new best friend) and not me. New admin has been here a year (I’ve been here almost a decade) and became close with supervisor – hang out weekly and vacation together close. So supervisor and new admin presented MY ideas to boss and then new admin came down and whispered to me that boss was going to allow us to do the ideas. So…happy that some change is coming but extremely frustrated to be left out. New admin has not been doing great. I believe my boss even realizes this because I’m getting work new admin should be doing from boss. New admin is making constant mistakes and just not getting our process. Supervisor refuses to do anything about it so I’ve let it go and let things fall where they may. I know they recognize new admin is making mistakes because supervisor asked her child (who also works here) to switch jobs with new admin because new admin complains about answering phones and our clients ALL THE TIME. I shouldn’t be surprised, supervisor did the same thing when their child started working here and refused to even do work. Supervisor told me they regretted hiring child but would not fire them. Boss directed me back to supervisor when I finally got frustrated enough to go beyond supervisor. I am constantly asking for more work and responsibility and supervisor is always deflecting. I haven’t learned anything new in four years. I’m even beginning to wonder if the way supervisor treats me is retaliation for speaking my concerns about their child’s work and going to boss. It certainly feels like punishment. Yet I’m being asked to fix mistakes being made my new admin from supervisor yet anytime we need to implement changes my thoughts get squashed and new admin’s get approved.

    Just another reason I have been job searching. Have been getting more responses this past week from jobs so I’m trying to stay hopeful. It’s been a year, on and off due to busy season/deadline, that I’ve been searching. I even broke down asked one of our professionals if they’d give me a reference and they weren’t surprised I was looking, they knew how I was being treated. They said they’d be happy to be a reference and encouraged me to find a new job and said they wouldn’t stay if they were in my position.

    1. Anona*

      It definitely sounds like it’s time to ramp up the job search, unless there’s some reason not to. You don’t sound very happy. I hope you find a position that works better for you.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Yeah it’s been a constant search, the only problem is we don’t get time off between Jan-Ap, and then again Sept-Nov because of deadlines. Interviewing becomes really hard during those months. One appt here and there is ok.

    2. Kathenus*

      I literally have not even finished reading your post yet, but had to reply right now to say how much I LOVE the first two sentences. Brilliant! Now on to read the rest of it :)

      Every time I think I set the bar lower at my toxic job someone crawls underneath it. I think if I buried it my supervisor would learn to tunnel.

    3. Kathenus*

      This won’t help many of your problems and frustrations, but if it were me I’d consider emailing boss and saying something like “Hi boss, I just found out that you’ve approved moving forward with my ideas xx and yy. Thanks for the support!” Make sure boss knows they were your ideas and establish/maintain a good direct line of communication to them.

    4. froodle*

      became close with supervisor – hang out weekly and vacation together close.
      Ooooh glob i haven’t even read the rest of this comment and I screamed nooooooooooo at this bit!!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Yeah. So the 3 people in our office that I work directly with/sit with/talk to all day/report to are all one little happy family. Everyone else is in a professional role

        -_-

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Toxic job indeed!
      I’m very glad to hear you’re looking and that you have a current-job reference who understands why you’re looking.
      Are you working too hard to take off during your busy season — or insanely long hours? Because some employers will make after-hours times available for interviews when they see a good candidate. And not being willing to let down your current job during the busy season? That makes you more reliable in my book.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        It’s tax season during those times. So often I am working 6-7 days a week and long hours. It’s more so the lack of available options when given choices by interviewers. If they only have 10am or 2pm it cuts out a larger chunk of the day as opposed to 8am or 5pm. And often they have asked for next day interviews and when I’ve offered even 2 days out they say “Oh we’ll be done interviewing by then” I don’t want to miss my chances.

        Thanks for the kind words :)

  15. Lost*

    As of tomorrow, I will have been unemployed for a year.

    I used to make doctor appointments for the first or last time slot of the day, and I declined invites from family and friends that involved traveling, because I wanted to minimize taking time off at the start of a new job. Now I schedule whatever whenever because a job isn’t in my future.

    I used to force myself to go to bed early and get up early so it’s be easier to adjust to a new work schedule. Now I go to bed and wake up later and later because it’s too much effort to struggle against my night owl tendencies for a nonexistent job.

    I used to get my hair cut and eyebrows shaped often to look presentable incase I started a new job. Now I wait a couple extra weeks and let myself get sloppy because there is no job to look presentable for.

    I used to be super careful about filling out job applications and checked over everything before submitting. Now I rush through them as fast as possible and make mistakes (despite my cover letter mentioning attention to details and accuracy, which used to be important to me) because applications are busy work I have to do that don’t really matter.

    I want to return to work but feel absolutely hopeless and useless. No one’s going to hire someone that’s been unemployed for so long.

    How have you guys dealt with long-term unemployment? Has anyone gotten a job after being unemployed for a year?

    1. Dragoning*

      You might be falling into situational depression. I know I have for long spurts of unemployment.

      But then…I’m only 25. I usually just plaster over those periods in job interviews by saying things like “it took a while to find a job in my field, so I was doing X”

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          It’s sometimes called “adjustment disorder” and the idea is that symptoms only last a limited time and are not persistent outside of the situation you’re in.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I was unemployed for a year and a half. It was miserable and I’m so sorry you’re going through it. The optimistic days grew few and far between. I can absolutely sympathize with you. I couldn’t even get hired as a temp for awhile. I don’t know why. When I finally did start getting some temp jobs the staffer was so happy with my work they asked me to temp for them. I finally got hired full time after 18 months and it was for a job that I temped at for 2 months. Is temping available to you or your profession? Can you volunteer anywhere? This might help in having a more routine schedule and have something to put on your resume. As well as have something to look nice for. I eventually stopped trying to apply all day long. I took one hour a day and applied and then left it alone.

      I have hope you’ll find a new job and sooner than later!!

      1. Lost*

        I had a horrible experience with a recruiter/temp job before so I’m avoiding them (I was stuck in a toxic temp job for 2 years because they made it so hard to job hunt without getting fired). I’m really tired and just want to be able stop job hunting. I can’t imagine having the energy to do a short term job while using all my free time to job hunt.

        I have weird feelings about volunteering. I did a lot of volunteering and unpaid internships in and after college to get experience, and still wasn’t able to get a job in my “field,” and now regret investing so much time doing it. I guess I’m resentful that it seems as though I should only do work for free and that my time and energy aren’t worth paying for? Getting volunteer gigs that could use my skills was really hard before, and it doesn’t seem worth having to take on a second “job hunt.”

        Sorry if that seems really negative. I appreciate the advice, but those two things are hard for me right now.

        1. Ali G*

          I’m really sorry you are dealing with this. It took me about 9 months to find my last job and there were a lot of bad days. I just want to put a plug in for volunteering. It doesn’t have to be in your field! I am in the environmental field and I volunteered for the non-profit that taught low-income adults how to use computers. It was really great to have something to do/get out of the house 2 days a week for a few hours. I didn’t expect it to be, but it was supremely rewarding and helped me regain some confidence too.
          Good luck to you and take care of yourself!

        2. DaniCalifornia*

          Hey I completely understand those feelings. I wouldn’t expect with your experience to sound super positive either. I guess I wasn’t even thinking of volunteering in an area that was related to your work. (Although that is better advice than mine lol. I was just thinking of volunteering in an area that could make you happy.) It makes sense that you’d be hesitant to go that route since it didn’t help before.

          Still wishing you luck and an amazing opportunity in your near future!

        3. Hamburke*

          I’ve had good and bad experiences with temp agencies. My most recent was good and led to my current job but I dropped a temp agency years ago after they sent me to retail placements instead of admin office work so I know it can go either way.

          I know it seems counter productive to get a short term job but it might boost your confidence. At a minimum, it would give you a mental break from job searching which is exhausting and demoralizing.

          Perhaps a part time position or freelance depending on your field – and sometimes pt positions are hard to fill so asking for that puts you at the top of the list. I’m part-time (bookkeeping) and the temp agency was thrilled bc those are hard to fill. But part-time will still give you time to work on your real job search.

    3. Justin*

      My good friend from college got a job this summer after, I want to say, 3 years being unemployed (and growing very, very visibly depressed; we all tried to help, he refused treatment, etc etc).

      BUT, for him he tried applying to something completely different from his old path and they gave him a shot. So maybe something where your skills are transferable rather than direct, just to have a different angle.

      Good luck. Try to take care of yourself however you can, seek treatment if needed. Not diagnosing, just know it’s hard.

      1. Lost*

        I’ve read a few articles about how you should apply to jobs you aren’t totally qualified for but could hypothetically learn to do, so I have actually been applying to jobs unrelated to my experience/education but that my skills seem transferable for. I’ve done some phone screenings and interviews for them, but no luck so far. I assume the jobs go to people with direct experience.

    4. Graciosa*

      To answer your question, I have been unemployed for a number of months, but I always thought I would find the right spot eventually and it was just a matter of waiting for it to happen (it did). I don’t think there is anything magical about the one year mark that makes you unemployable ever again, and I have hired people who have had long stretches of unemployment so yes, it happens.

      What I’m more concerned about is that you appear to be depressed (word not used as a diagnosis I’m not qualified to make). You’ve identified changes in your behavior that will make it harder for you to get a job – lack of concern for your appearance, or the quality of your application materials – and there is a real danger that you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. You are so convinced that you will not get a job that you are not going to be an appealing candidate – not due to your stretch of unemployment, but rather your changed behavior and defeatist attitude.

      I am not saying this to beat up on you, but because it is really important that you see the issue (I think you do from your letter) and get help. We all have things we can’t do alone, and “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps” is always a realistic expectation.

      My recommendation is to take a break from job searching at all and take care of yourself. YOU need to be your priority. If you have access to regular medical care, your family practitioner might be a good place to start. Libraries can also be surprisingly good resources to help you find assistance. I’d really like to see you get back in a good mental space before resuming your job search if it’s at all possible for you to do so.

      I know this is difficult to deal with, and I’m very sorry you’re going through it. Please be kind to yourself.

    5. Mae West*

      I know it’s easier said than done but please don’t despair.

      Without details it’s hard to advise, but if you’re looking for a career, try for just any job–even part-time. Also, volunteering will get you out there and helping others will give you a confidence boost.

    6. ThatGirl*

      My husband was unemployed for two years, in the midst of the recession. He has now been at his current job for 7.

      It’s hard, but it’s not impossible. Have you done volunteer work? Have you tried freelancing? Maybe a part-time retail job just to get you out of the house?

      Don’t stop putting in effort. But do focus your efforts more narrowly – on jobs you’re really actually interested in, on fields you care about. Work harder on fewer things instead of being sloppy and broad.

    7. WellRed*

      Sorry you are dealing with this! I second the ideas about volunteering or temping or even maybe a part time retail gig or something. It does help to get out of the house regularly and feel like a member of society.

    8. CheeryO*

      I’m sorry, it’s so hard to be in that situation. My boyfriend was unemployed for about a year and a half and ended up landing a decent job after. Unfortunately, it just came down to being persistent, applying to everything he could, and tweaking his resume. He eventually lucked into a few interviews, and he started being very candid about the long-term unemployment. He had quit his previous job for a graduate program that didn’t work out, and he was limiting his search area to our current city since that’s where our roots are, and openings were far and few between. He ended up getting a couple offers at once from companies who sort of saw his desire to stay put as a positive, since they’re into loyalty, are like a family, etc.

      You can and will get past this, and it does not need to define you. It’ll just be a blip in time five or ten years from now. But you should do whatever you can to try to stay in good spirits, since that’ll make it easier to put out good applications and perform well in interviews. I know that’s way easier said than done, though.

    10. Anona*

      When I was unemployed I found it helpful to volunteer. It got me out of the house and also was something I could put on my resume. One volunteer gig helped me develop skills that eventually led to a new job. Temping would probably be similar. The holidays are here- maybe there are some seasonal positions you could do, even at a place like Target or Walmart, if that won’t mess with any unemployment benefits you have?

      I also pursued cheap hobbies so I felt like I was accomplishing something. Like learning to make bread and cheese, and planting seeds indoors and transplanting them.

      And it’s definitely exhausting to constantly feel like you need to be ready for a new job. I’d take a short break, as others have suggested. When you do start, hopefully you’ll be able to apply with attention to detail again. Maybe you’ll also be able to do your personal grooming- not to constantly prepare for a job, but because it would make you
      feel nicer. Hang in there!

    11. Kathenus*

      Echoing a lot of the support from other commenters. I think on many of the things you mentioned, give yourself permission to be relaxed about things – hair, schedule, appointments, etc. The one thing I would be more strict with myself about are your applications. I know how frustrating it is to not get a job, I’ve been there although not for as long as you’re dealing with, and I understand letting things slide. But this is the one area that can hurt your long-term goal, so I’d focus on being as meticulous as you can on job-hunting related tasks, but 100% totally relax your self-imposed standards on other areas in your life. At some point, hopefully soon, you won’t have all that freedom, so enjoy the one thing about not having to go to work that you can, with the more relaxed schedule. And good luck.

    12. Kes*

      So you don’t need to live your whole life in preparation for a possible job, but it is important to take care of yourself and find something to focus on/a way to motivate yourself and not fall into a negative cycle. I get that it feels like your applications are useless, but not putting any effort into them will only be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      I agree with the others about looking into potential depression and finding temp work or a volunteer position to keep you busy and focused and motivated and to give you something you’re doing now that can help you get to where you want to be (in a job)

    13. Goya de la Mancha*

      Volunteering. My unemployment wasn’t as long as yours, but it was several months and volunteering helped keep me in a routine and kept some of my skills sharpened.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Forgot to add the “networking” aspect. A lot of people I ended up volunteering with were prominent figures in the community. They might not have been able to offer me a job, but I have some fantastic references for any future work that might come up.

    14. The New Wanderer*

      I went 18 months between jobs. I didn’t look into volunteering myself (except very occasionally at my kid’s school) because that has not worked out well for me in the past. I also went through periods of anxiety alternating with giving up, and wore glorified pajamas all day every day.

      What helped me was finally getting around to taking online classes to develop some new, related skills. I stopped job hunting for a month while I focused on the first two classes, just to have a total change of pace. I went online bc it’s far cheaper and self-paced. I felt more focused because I had something to care about and metrics to show success and I was exercising my brain in new and useful ways.

      I’m not really a success story in that I didn’t get my current job through traditional interviewing, I was directly reinstated by the company that laid me off 18 months ago (though to be fair, they wrote the job description specifically to get me rehired). But I did want to comment that it’s common to feel horrible as the job search drags on, and I hope there is good news in your near future.

    15. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I was unemployed for 2 years. The first few months didn’t bother me because I was getting severance pay and I JUST KNEW I would get another job fairly quick. Well the months turned into years and interviews were few and far between. All I can advise is to stay as positive as you can (you WILL get another job). I know you said you had a bad experience with temping, but don’t count out volunteering and temp work. (I got a temp job and was made permanent). How did you leave things at your oldjob? If you left on good terms, see if anything is available there and apply (a friend of mine did that and she got [re] hired). Also, have friends keep their eyes out for open positions where they work.

    16. Anono-Mice*

      As a person who spent about that much time unemployed before I know what you’re going through.

      One of the big things I did that changed how I felt about myself and my situation was to get up and get ready every single weekday morning. I did sleep in but not 10 AM or later sleep in, I’d set an alarm and get my butt out of bed by 8 am (I tend to work jobs that start around 6 am so that’s sleeping in for me). Then you make your bed and get ready for the day. I also highly recommend adding some structure to your days (job hunt for X time before noon, and X time between noon and 5 PM, you make lunch at X time) just enough to give you structure. On Fridays, I ended my week at noon to start the weekend early, I’d also schedule ‘vacation’ weeks that I was just gonna be lazy and happy and not think about job hunting guilt free.

      Do you feel a little silly at first? Absolutely. But the moment I started taking care of myself that way, I started being nicer to myself and no longer felt so poopy about where my life was at. The bed making thing is also good for the mind. If nothing else comes from your day, at least the last thing you get to see before bed is a tangible thing you accomplished as well it feels nice to get up and accomplish something before you’ve even fully woken up.

      I was laid off during an industry slump so it was a good long while before things started picking up again (2 years!), and it was so so tough being unemployed that long and not take it personally.

      1. Anono-Mice*

        Forgot to mention by ‘get ready’ I don’t mean like make up and hair styling if you don’t feel like it, but things like eat breakfast, wash your face, brush your teeth and hair and change out of your jammies (even if it’s into sweats)

    17. Snow Drift*

      It is absolutely feasible. After I was laid off, it took me 6 years to find a job in my field. Yes, six. The interim included everything you describe here.

      Get something part-time, anything. Doesn’t matter if it’s in your field. I waitressed. You just need to get out so you don’t become (in the delightful words of another commenter this morning) fully feral.

    18. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’ve painted a picture of a spiraling depression. My mom has the same issue, not tied to work but when loved ones have been terribly ill. Medication helped her tremendously.

      That’s besides the point. What stands out to me and troubles me from the personal side is that it’s seeping into your applications and I’m certain it’s leeching into your phone screens and interviews. That’s a dangerous web to be tangled in.

      I’ve had to force myself out of bed and out of my comfort zone frequently in these situations. It’s hard as heck and I’m sorry I can’t share much more than you have to fight. You have to fake caring if necessary. You can’t let the demons of resentment settle in for the long term. I’m concerned that a bad experience in temping means you won’t try it again. There are tons of different agencies to try out.

      How are you paying your expenses? Unemployment usually runs out fast and you can end relationships this way if you’re depending on a spouse for support.

      Everyone’s rock bottom is different and I pray you have a turn around before you bottom out.

      I’m being direct and probably harsh to many right now. I do it out of true concern and care for everyone who struggles with the darkness of depression and despair. I’ve been there and often it’s hard for people to not just skirt issues and give out passes due to mental illness, permanent or situational being so fragile and taboo to talk hard about.

      You’re doing well at seeking advice here. That’s huge. Please reach out to sources that can assist you further. You deserve good things. You deserve happiness. You deserve a job. You deserve to be free of these emotional chains you’re in. I wish I could unlock them for you.

    19. CandyFloss*

      I in my 50s and I got a job after being unemployed for 15 months. It happens. I know how emotionally exhausting and depressing long-term unemployment can be but there is hope. If you aren’t seeing a therapist, I’d suggest it. What you are describing sounds like depression and you may need some help in coping with it. My number #1 advice after seeing a therapist is to get up early. During another stretch of unemployment, I let myself get into later and later bedtimes, until I was getting up at 11AM or later. It made me feel very isolated and out of step with the world. Good luck!

    20. Meredith Brooks*

      Throwing my 2 cents in should they be helpful. I have been without a steady income before and have had some issues with depression. I spent a year as a “consultant” working out of my studio apartment with a small handful clients in 2010. (I made less than $25K that year — I live in NYC, that’s not sustainable at all.) I hadn’t intended on having my own business, but I landed in a bad fit job and was unemployed a year later, so I struck out on my own to make sense of my career. I had one long-term assignment from an old colleague that was incredibly helpful in smoothing over some quiet cashflow periods. And in the end, it actually worked out quite well for me. I shifted my focus and got into a different industry. (Same job though).

      What I found to be helpful for me was the opportunity to take a step back and use that time not to perseverate over what I had lost or what I couldn’t find, but what I wanted. It wasn’t always easy and sometimes I failed miserably and made myself incredibly overwhelmed. But I find depression or anxiety or ennui likes to rear it’s ugly head when we put punish ourselves for not succeeding in something. The stress of unemployment is stressful enough. There’s no need to punish yourself for giving in to your night owl tendencies or not grooming your eyebrows. As long as you’re capable of pulling yourself together for morning meetings and polishing your look for interviews, allow yourself to focus on what you need (on a personal level), not what you want.

    21. Frea*

      Unemployed for 2 years during the recession. I wound up throwing myself into writing in order to fight off the feeling of uselessness. We’re talking one million words of fanfic here. But in that time, I also found online tutorials and taught myself Photoshop and a few other programs that have helped me out professionally since. Out of desperation (and wanting to defer payments on my student loans), I actually enrolled in a professional development program at a local community college, which helped get me out of the house.

      Coming out the other side after I finally landed PreviousJob made me realize just how dark some of those times got. We put so much of our worth on what we DO and it messes with our heads. Seconding all the other commenters here saying you’ll get through this. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.

    22. PuppiesHelp*

      I had a period of time about 4 years ago when I was unemployed for 6 months. I found pet sitting really helped.

      By pet sitting, I was able to make a little extra money, but it also got me out of the house. Even though most of the visits were pretty quick (usually 15-30 minutes to feed the cat, walk the dog, or grab the mail) it made me get dressed, do a small bit of exercise, and have a nice change of scenery. I got to travel around the city and see new places, plus having a few animals around to pet and play with really brightened my day. And because I wasn’t tied down to a full-time job, I could commit to multiple visits during the day or unexpected overnights.

      I also met new clients before I began caring for their pets, which gave me some conversation and socialization, which is very important when you’re at home all day job hunting.

      Even better, I could set my own schedule so when I did get interviews, I would work around them.

      Best of luck on your search!

    23. Close Bracket*

      I’ve been unemployed for 4 years. I’m not saying I’m having great luck, but I do get the occasional phone interview. I’ll report if anyone hires me. :)

      I also keep a night owl schedule and don’t bother with hair cuts. I was like that while I was employed, too, though. I am still careful with job applications, but sometimes I don’t bother with a cover letter.

      Do you have other ways to occupy yourself? I’m learning more programming languages. Are there skills you could learn or beef up?

    24. Lalaith*

      I was unemployed for 14 months before I finally got a job 2 months ago. I know how hard this is. I know how useless you feel. But you aren’t. You have value, you have skills, and you will find a place that wants to use those skills. In the meantime it SUCKS and I’m not going to try to tell you any different. But you have to get out in front of employers and put a good face on all of it to be able to change anything.

      One thing I got asked more and more as time went on was what I’d been doing this whole time… which, thanks, rub salt in my wounds… but this is where a part-time job or volunteering or temping is good. Whatever you decide, just have an answer for that question ready to go. The main thing I was doing (besides job-hunting) was taking online classes. My local library let me access Lynda.com for free, from home, so I was taking a bunch of programming courses (I’m a web developer). You can also get a month of LinkedIn Premium, with access to their courses (which I think are linked with Lynda), for free.

      I hope things turn around for you soon. I truly do. It is still possible to get hired. You have worth, you have value, and if you’re not seeing that in yourself, please find someone to talk to who will remind you of it. You will be ok again.

    25. Gumby*

      I was unemployed for 2+ years before getting my current job so yes, it is possible.

      At one point it wasn’t that I didn’t tweeze my eyebrows (to be honest I mostly don’t tweeze them now), it’s that brushing my teeth seemed like too much effort to bother with. So I get it.

      You *can* still get a job. It’s easier if you can make up a good story about what you did in the meantime. If there’s some sort of project, even if it is self-assigned, that you accomplished. Personally, I got further education to facilitate a career change. Technically it was 6 months worth of classwork over the 2+ years but, eh, it made it look like I wasn’t sitting on the couch moldering the whole time. I have talked to people who took on part-time volunteer work, spent the time caring for aging/ailing family members, or took a career pause to raise their kids (while volunteering a lot for the schools, etc.). I’m not saying lie – those are all true things – but when interviewing it’s good to be able to explain a gap in a positive light.

      I was also greatly helped by participating in a free 6-week job search boot camp. Just having other people in a similar situation was immensely useful in many ways, especially for my mental health.

      There are resources to help specifically with long-term unemployment too. Maybe google that for your area.

      And network. Absolutely network. Because while the job search boot camp set me up for success and I had several interviews (after a year of almost nothing in response to applications), the job I eventually got was because a friend told me about the opening.

    26. Autumnheart*

      It sucks and is really hard. I haven’t been unemployed for a full year, but I spent 3 years being repeatedly laid off (dot-com crash) and was unemployed for up to 9 months at a time, for a period of about 3 years. It was really hard and stressful.

      If you can, I would highly recommend trying to stick to a schedule where you get up reasonably early in the morning, even if it seems sort of pointless, because it lets you feel more on the same schedule as people who are currently in the workforce, whereas being on opposite timetables can make you feel more isolated/not part of the world. And two, also consider that increasing the hours where you’re up and about at night can contribute to depression, like SAD can do.

      There was no real magic solution. I basically did the following:

      1. Got a whiteboard and put about 7-8 small tasks on it that I could accomplish that day, so I could cross them off and see/feel that I was being productive
      2. Did something I genuinely enjoyed each day, so that I could look back and say, “I got to read a good book and take a bike ride in the sunshine, it wasn’t all bad”.
      3. Did my best to stick to a routine. Get up, shower, get dressed, leave and do Something (e.g. read the paper at a local coffee shop, take a bike ride or a walk, work out, etc), come home and do my 7-8 tasks, and of course perform my job search and resume-sending for the day.

      I did find a job eventually. The bad days came to an end. I still remember them, though, and try to plan my life understanding that things are good right now, but could change, and I need to be prepared to weather bad times again.

    27. CanadaTag*

      I’ve been out on disability for a while, so not exactly the same thing, but I may have a few insights that can help (and some echo what other commenters have mentioned).

      Your mental and emotional health is just as important as your physical, and I think that may be partly falling by the wayside here. If I were you, I would “give” myself a one to two week “vacation”, where you concentrate on helping yourself feel better, if that’s at all possible.

      I would also set up a routine, whether that routine involves volunteering, treating the job applications as doing a job, getting out of the house on something every one to two days… just a routine that you can follow that will help add structure to your life. (It will also mean that when you do get your next job, there won’t be as difficult a transition back into the structure of a working day.) If you are ending up with something like situational depression, or anything like that, a routine will help. (I know from clinical depression experience….)

      And choose one or two aspects of your life to concentrate on getting done “properly”. Based on your comment, I would focus my attention on getting the job applications and cover letters well done, with your usual attention to detail, and not worry overly much about the other things until you get called in to an interview.

      Your hours, your grooming, your choices of when to go out with family or friends – they’re not going to have a huge effect on your job search at the moment, and it sounds like you’re spending a fair bit of energy worrying about how you’re handling them now. My advice to you on those would be to not worry about them. As I mentioned, they’re not going to have a huge effect on your job search (get a call for an interview? If you’re asleep or out, a voicemail can be left, and you can worry about it when you wake up or get back), so give yourself permission to relax on those. I think doing that will also help you feel a bit better and a bit more energetic, because worrying about things can be very draining, and if you say to yourself, “I don’t need to get up early at the moment, I can enjoy the sleep in,” or “It doesn’t matter if I’m not perfectly groomed, no one’s going to care about that right now,” it can help you relax and not waste that energy on beating yourself up about those aspects.

      Anyway, just my two cents on the matter.

    28. fromscratch*

      I am so sorry. I was unemployed for 6 months this year and it’s brutal. The other 6 months I was only working part time. I got smart advice: go on LinkedIn and put an item on your work experience as “freelance consultant” for this year with generic business tasks. Put in bids on Fivr and upwork for small projects so that it’s not a lie.

      Connect with any and everyone on LinkedIn and share a post at least once a week – it makes you more visible. Turn on the open to recruitment settings if you haven’t already.

      And find free things you enjoy – go for walks, use your public library, etc. Just to get out of your house!

  16. Who’s On First*

    I have been covering many duties for a coworker who is out on maternity leave. One of the tasks is something that works very closely with our Accounting department. Basically my coworker fully completed this task and gave it to Accounting. Since I don’t have my coworker’s full training and authority in the computer system on this task, I was asked to gather all the information Accounting needed every week for this request, and Accounting would complete the task themselves.

    Accounting has put up a fight every week since my coworker has been gone, pushing back as much as possible for me to do the work myself. I’ve been standing firm because the task is not something I’m qualified to do on my own, and it is not what was agreed upon when my coworker went on maternity leave. But the worst this week is that Accounting is trying to change the process of this request entirely with new forms. They say its to streamline the process but I think it’s once again a tactic for me to do more of their work.

    The people in Accounting say they plan to present this new process to the higher ups next week for their approval and implementation, only three weeks before my coworker returns. I don’t think they should be changing the system without her say-so but they claim she’s wanted to make this change for month (which may be true but they didn’t actually advocate for this change until she left).

    Should I keep standing against the changes they’re making, and if so, how? My supervisor is not likely to back me up (she doesn’t care how the task is done as long as it gets done) so I feel on my own for getting Accounting to back down. I’ve basically kept repeating ‘I don’t have the knowledge or authority to approve of this change and it should wait until Coworker returns’ until I’m blue in the face but it’s a new fight every week.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Sounds like the plans to cover your coworker’s maternity leave were not adequate. On the good side this fight has an end. Coworker will be back in three weeks. I’d keep my answers simple at this point. “I can’t do that. Take it up with Supervisor if you need somebody that can.”

    2. LKW*

      I would bring it to your co-workers supervisor and give her a heads up that shits about to hit the fan. Is the accounting group the owner of the system? Primary user? How are they representing agreement from your group to higher ups? Your supervisor needs to be able to say “No, we were not contacted regarding these proposed changes and I do not know the impact to my resources with these change.”

    3. BRR*

      I’d probably push back to hold off on any changes until your coworker is back. Even if she truly wanted the change, they should still wait for her for implementation.

    4. Friday afternoon fever*

      A couple things are unclear to me, but on my first read this sounds like it could be more of a ‘not my circus, not my monkeys’ scenario. It also sounds like your accounting department is frustrating and unhelpful to work with, but those truths can exist together.

      You don’t have authority to OK this process; would your coworker if she were here? Would she have the authority to veto it? You don’t think they should change the process without your coworker’s approval, but do other people disagree? Generally best practice is to structure authority and coverage so that you can keep on business as usual if one person is on leave; is it realistic to expect Accounting to wait until your coworker returns from leave to implement changes?

      How much are they changing the process? If they do change it and your coworker comes back from leave and hates it, could she reverse it?

      Also, who is the directive to change the process coming from — Accounting or higher? If it’s someone above your level, it might not look great to push back very hard. Alison writes about how everyone has a finite (and different) amount of political capital. Is this where you want to spend yours?

      I think that changing an accounting process in a way that requires new paperwork and approval from higher-ups probably has a longer-term motivation than getting you to do more work for the next 3 weeks. They may be looking at that as a bonus, but I would be surprised if that was their main reason.

      I think you’re likely to have the best results if you object to this based on how it will affect your ability to do your job. How much is your workload changing? Is the problem that you’re doing more work or that you’re being asked to do impossible/unauthorized tasks (or both)? The former, try to quantify how much work this will add for you. If it would mean you couldn’t finish all your own work, say that too. Maybe your supervisor wants you to prioritize this accounting task over x thing you usually do. (It is only for the next 3 weeks.) The latter? Great! They can make all the changes they want — you are literally unable to complete what they’re asking of you. It’s Their Problem to fix that.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Finally, I have worked with many, many unhelpful and infuriatingly difficult people. (Many! Who is hiring them? Where are they all coming from?)

        The most productive approach, for me, has been not “how can I be victorious in my battles against them” but “how can I get past this obstacle with the least amount of effort?” But YMMV.

  17. Master Bean Counter*

    I’ve hit the point of knowing my current job has an expiration date. Things are getting to a point that I cant ignore the hypocrisy anymore. Last time it took me two years to find another job. So wish me luck in finding something sooner.
    To make me feel better i’m going to get on my soap box just a little:
    I run the budget, if you make changes to your salary that are disproportionate to the rest of the company and don’t tell me for what ever reason, I’m still going to find out. And when I find out I’m not going to be happy because, not only does it throw my carefully crafted budget off, I am also going to be upset you not telling me the truth in the first place. This will lead me to be very skeptical of everything else you say as well.
    Okay, I feel a bit better now.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WHAT! A salary bump that bypasses the person handling the budget is making my head spin. I would start auditing every expense, that’s shady nonsense.

      Is finance a limited job in your area?! Two years?! Were you looking during the recession by chance? Small area? I’m praying it takes you far less time for a new job. I found a new job within 2 weeks of deciding I needed to leave the clusterfk I was in last year. But I’m in a large area with low unemployment, lots of commerce and a seasoned accountant, so I’m aware my odds are better given mt geographical location.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        Small market….a good chunk of employers closely linked to where I am now. Not sure I really want to risk looking with-in the same group of employers.

  18. LayoffLimbo*

    I’ve been waiting for my layoff for four months. I am not on a transition plan; they told me thinking it’d be a couple weeks, and I’m still here. I know it’s coming, I just don’t know when, and they won’t tell me. I’ve already handed off all of my projects, so I pretty much make an appearance at work so they don’t outright fire me. The severance package is too good to give up, or I’d just cut my losses and leave!!! Before I knew about this, I was tossing around the idea of starting my own business and the payout would help float me for a few months until I get ramped up. I pretty much cycle between massively pissed off that I don’t know anything and giddy that I will get to do my own thing soon (I think?). Any tips on how to keep my sanity between now and…. whenever?

    1. Dasein9*

      Can you go ahead and start your job search now? It sounds like they’re happy to pay you to do very little until axe falls, so there seems to be no reason not to use the time to your advantage.

    4. LayoffLimbo*

      I can KIND OF do some of the business stuff. I build custom electronics. It’d be crossing a line to use the equipment at my current job. (And I wouldn’t want to appear that I was raiding the parts bins for personal projects.) I already have a couple of clients lined up (if the layoff doesn’t take too much longer…) And I don’t want to incorporate until I’m sure that doing so won’t disqualify me for my severance. I do have four months of really thorough research on the current state of the industry! I’ve also done some long lunches and coffee meetings, so I now have paperwork ready to file, an accountant, bookkeeper, insurance, and lawyer identified, and some networking under my belt.

      I shouldn’t complain TOO much about still getting paid a good salary… As one friend said, “oh no, you’re still employed. What a good problem to have.” I just feel like I’ve had four months of that jittery, adrenaline-fueled, super excited yet scared feeling I used to get waiting at the starting line for races.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m not sure if you’re hourly or salaried, but are there any appointments you could get taken care off during work hours? Take a long lunch, or just leave for a couple of hours if no one is going to be looking for you. (YMMV, I’ve always worked at places that are extra flexible about butts-in-seats.) You might be busy once you are actually laid off and not want to carve out time to get your annual eye or dental appointment in.

        1. LayoffLimbo*

          Salaried. And yeah, it’s pretty flexible. Appointments are all scheduled out already and I can’t move them up because insurance, but I have been coming in late, taking long lunches, using meeting rooms as my personal office, and leaving early most days. I’ve burned through all of my PTO and have been taking quite an obnoxious number of “sick” days. (That my supervisor totally understands and says nothing about.) I will also have 60 days paid leave after my last day before I get severance that I’ll use for a lot of life’s administrative tasks and really ramping up for business.

          I mostly just want to stop thinking about the *WHEN?!?!?!?!*. Posted today because quite a few other departments got their notifications yesterday. And I’m still here! Got kind of cranky about it, tbh. And I kind of want to know why I was so special to be told months ago and no one else is aware of whether or not they’re being laid off. (I get why my position was a particularly easy one to cut, I am an organizational anomaly of epic proportions, I just wish I knew why I was TOLD.) So I’m also kind of emotional on behalf of my coworkers and their understandably high stress level.

    5. Kes*

      Agreed with the others – your business will likely take a bit to get up and running, so start working or planning on whatever parts you can now. Since work isn’t demanding, you have the time/energy to put into this to create a longer runway to get your business off the ground, so why not take advantage

    6. JaneB*

      What can you do NOW to get your new venture closer to launch? Can you focus on that?

      If you have no work and aren’t being given any, can you run past your boss the option of doing some online courses relevant to your general area of work or something like that that would give your days some structure?

  19. Moths*

    Update to a posting from a few weeks ago: I wrote in about Regina George, the terrible coworker who was enabled in treating everyone horribly. Now that she’d finally gotten on the bad side of the department head’s friend, said head was looking for dirt on her under the guise of finding things to coach on, though the intent seemed to be more to build a case for firing. I was wondering whether to bring forward the issues I’d had with her or to let it go so as to not be the one to push her in front of the bus. Thanks to everyone’s feedback, I did go talk to the department head and tried to stick to a couple of points where Regina’s behavior had interfered with my ability to do my job. It seemed to go well, but ended up being a moot point, because a few days later, Regina put in her two weeks notice! She had gotten a job somewhere else. Her last two weeks just accentuated her bad behavior, but at least now no one cared. Today was supposed to be her last day, but when I went to give her a card yesterday wishing her well at the new position, she was already gone. She’d said goodbye to the few people she deemed worthy and then left early without letting anyone else know. While there weren’t any tears shed over her leaving, there was a sense of regret that what could have been a good thing (she brought a lot of knowledge and experience) was squandered because of her behavior choices.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re such a good person. I hope to be like you one day. You’re truly good, I’m not being snarky or anything. This lady didn’t deserve any kindness from you and you were still being the bigger person. I wouldn’t have bothered to try saying “best wishes” let alone a card.

      As soon as she quit, I would have iced her out without another thought. Knowledge aside, she added more stress and bad atmosphere than that would ever be worth bothering with.

  20. Grace*

    I have an in person job interview next week, but unfortunately the only time available is at 10 am, so I’d have to take the whole morning off of work to go. I’m incredibly anxious about asking for the time off because I just had 3 days off this week and because it’s to interview somewhere else. Any advice on how to ask for this time off is appreciated

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Well, how do you think your boss would react to the truth? If they would be horrible about it, than I think there’s no crime in lying. Justin’s solution of “feeling sick” the afternoon before and then asking to come in late the next day can work. Or you can say you “totally forgot about a doctors appointment” and apologize profusely.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      “I have an appointment at 10 am, I’ll be in after.” With an added, “It’s personal.” Should be enough.
      If it isn’t use the old dental appointment excuse.

    4. WellRed*

      Tell them you have an appointment and will be in right after. Or, another favorite of mine, is along the lines of a plumbing issue and you have to wait for the plumber. People take plumbing problems very seriously.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Getting a plumber out just before the weekend is a big deal. People would understand that. Your water is shut off or you have no hot water or whatever.

    5. Anona*

      I’d just ask for the time off. I wouldn’t specify a reason. If they ask, just say something personal came up.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      When I had a series of interviews I covered by claiming a dental issue. Since a cracked tooth, root canal, temporary crown, temporary crown came off, permanent crown, permanent crown adjustment are all entirely plausible, that excuse covered a multitude of absences.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        One of my coworkers has had multiple dental appointments in the last couple of weeks. He’s about to retire so I’m 99% sure they’re actual dental appointments, but that’s totally a thing.

        Also, taking just the morning probably won’t raise any concerns. It’s just another appointment you’re getting out of the way before year’s end.

    7. Autumnheart*

      A lot of people have health insurance with use-or-lose elements that expire by the end of the year. Might you feasibly be able to use this explanation, e.g. “I’m using up my FSA money with yearly check-ups”?

      1. the cat's meow*

        “Oh no, I just had a flat tire or minor plumbing emergency at home or other temporary home situation” can be good cover… substitute other car trouble if you work in a small place with a small parking lot where people might see your car.

    9. Friday afternoon fever*

      You had to schedule a follow-up appointment; the only time they had was 10am.

      If your boss is reasonable they’ll understand. If your boss is not reasonable and will be a jerk about it, well, good (eventual) riddance. If there will be actual professional consequences, that’s more difficult to navigate but if you’re just worried about looking bad or feel guilty, it’s ok to absolve yourself.

  21. Amber Rose*

    Our department is in a Christmas battle with another department. Every inch of this office (and theirs) is covered in Christmas stuff. There’s a pile of “presents” beside my desk that my boss is trying to get to the ceiling. There are garlands on my files. Everything is soaked in glitter. The trash talk is getting ugly. Basically, it’s the usual for this time of year. I know people are always like, “avoid the religion specific stuff” but this company takes Christmas so seriously that there’s no way around it. If you work here, you have to learn to deal.

    More work specifically, can anyone from the US explain to me what a Medical Case Management Company is and how one would go about finding one? Following the arrest of the office manager of our US office, I’m trying to help them address the 25 outstanding items from their audit but the US OSHA and the Canadian OH&S are just different enough that I’m at a loss.

    1. Auntie Social*

      They’re often RNs, BSNs, MDs who are patient advocates, often dealing in complicated cases like auto accidents that require multiple specialities. They are beyond wonderful. Google Medical Case Management Company and your state or city.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Why the heck would they need to have one? As far as I know, the US office employs a whole five people, and only two of them are ever even remotely at risk of harm.

        I can see why large companies would want them, but this seems like a huge expense for a small company.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Another company we do business for I think? They did an audit of the publicly available information on an online H&S document management account that we have to share with them. The audit is basically “here’s a list of things you must have to continue to do business with us.”

            Some of it is valid. Some of it is very strange and nonsensical to me. Some of it is so firmly entrenched in US and Texas specific law that I don’t even know where to start trying to figure out wtf to do about it. And of course, there’s a ton of paperwork that needs to be signed, which I can’t possibly do for them from my desk here in Canada.

            1. CDM*

              Ah, that’s a different kettle of fish. I deal with the insurance part of these types of contracts and agreements, and it’s not uncommon for a giant corporation to tell a small company that they must meet all these ridiculous requirements. But that’s not an absolute, that’s the starting point of negotiations. Companies can and do waive requirements and modify contracts, especially if you can point out concrete reasons why a requirement should not apply to your company.

              We had giant big box store chain tell a gauze manufacturer that they needed a $20M product liability policy because gauze pads were classified as the same category of risk as OTC medications. The risk isn’t nearly the same, we got the gauze reclassified into a lower risk category of products and provided evidence of a much lower product liability insurance limit.

              So for that one, you could tell them that there are 5 US employees, and any medical case management necessary would be handled by your workers compensation carrier, XYZ Insurance Co. That should be sufficient to satisfy the requirement, or you could ask for the medical case management requirement to be waived as you only have 5 US employees.

        2. CDM*

          And if employees are injured at the workplace, the workers compensation carrier would handle medical case management if necessary. I can’t see why OSHA would require an employer to maintain a separate medical case management service?

          1. Natalie*

            Texas employers generally aren’t required to carry workers comp insurance – they can essentially chose to self insure” without having to do anything. I wonder if this is a service that has cropped up to handle that.

            1. CDM*

              Yeah, the bit about Texas cross-posted while I was typing. This could be an either-or requirement, either provide evidence of workers comp coverage or of medical case management for employees. Hard to know without seeing the requirement.

      1. Amber Rose*

        “Glitter and tensions are running high. How long will the smiles last? Find out next time on: Merry Christmas Motherf***er.”

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          After “the arrest of our office manager”? I for sure would tune in or read the expose. This is fascinating.

  22. Even Steven*

    Hi Alison and AAM folks! Just want to say a big, warm thank you to everyone here for their sage advice and great encouragement. Thanks to you all, I quit my toxic job in July to tackle some work-caused and not-work-caused health issues, and once tackled, I started to look for work. Voila! Just got a terrific job, and I start today! Wheeeeeee! And it’s all because you all made me brave enough to plan to quit, to focus on health, to then have a neutral script for my health break and my former toxic job, and ultimately, to believe in my worth and myself. lison, your always sensible advice and your terrific forum here changed my life in no small way. Thank you from the bottom my (healthy, employed) heart!

    4. Armchair Analyst*

      Thank you also for spelling “Viola!” correctly and not “Viola!” which always makes me laugh and feel badly for the internet commenter.

  23. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

    This morning’s letter about mental health days and the one earlier this week about the coworker falling asleep at their desk got me thinking about my own situation. I’m dealing with chronic fatigue of unknown origins along with an invisible illness. My boss is aware and has given me permission to work from home / flex my time / do whatever I need to stay productive but also take care of myself. He’s great and I couldn’t be in a better situation there, but my problem is with my team lead.

    He is in the office 50% of the time and works from home the other 50%, and the last few times we were in meetings together, I definitely nodded off thanks to my fatigue combined with a new medication. I’m mortified but don’t know whether I should tell him what’s going on. He hasn’t said anything to me about it but he’s not the confrontational type so I didn’t expect him to. We both report to the same manager and our work relationship is that of peers, but he assigns me tasks within the team. We’ve worked together for the past 3 years and this is a new thing for me, but I’m worried that he’s seeing only the worst lately because he’s not in the office all of the times that I am on my game. On the other hand, I don’t want to overshare my personal problems with team members that don’t really need to know.

    WWYD: tell my team lead what’s going on, or continue as I have and just work through it with my manager? FWIW, the script in my head is more or less “I know I haven’t been at 100% lately, I’m dealing with some health issues to get back on track. Nothing to worry about, but I know I haven’t been as on top of things as I have been before and wanted to give you context”.

      1. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

        I’ve already talked to my manager and used basically that script, but I’m wondering if I need to tell my team lead who’s more of a peer.

        1. Anona*

          I would, if you’re comfortable. It’s a nice generic response, but let’s them know that you’re aware of it and are addressing it, since I’m sure they’re noticing. You could even tell them that your manager is aware, if you want
          .

        2. Armchair Analyst*

          I would. And you can add, I have spoken to Manager about it, so just so you know I’m above-board and am totally productive, just maybe not in a meeting during a tough day at the office.

          1. JaneB*

            Yes, this, definitely – your peer is probably worried, I know I would be, and this would be reassuring

    2. LQ*

      As a team lead/someone assigning tasks I’d want to know because I might be able to shift work around for a little while. And not have to start hemming and hawing on when do I need to start going to the boss about it. And as someone who assigns work that script is awesome. I’d probably ask about shifting tasks or work to make it better for a while and I hope you get back to well quickly.
      And I’d want you to tell me if/when it needs to shift back too. Like a “hey, I can take more of this, you don’t have to schedule meetings at this time, things have changed” whatever, if it’s not obvious, or even if it is I think that if things changed because of you when the thing that made it changed changes again you can bring it up and go, hey does this time still work for people, hey I can take on more of that, whatever.

      (And even if you just make it clear that the nodding off in meetings is a health thing and you feel bad that can help. I’ve had people tell me that, it still feels bad, but not nearly so much and not personal.)

    3. CastIrony*

      It would be good to tell your team lead what’s going on with the script you came up with. Let them know your higher-up already knows, too.

  24. Where's My Raise? :(*

    Hey everyone – A question about annual bonuses. I started a new job in March of this year, and as part of my negotiations, I worked one salary for the first six months and then “if I met performance expectations” I would get a salary bump. I met expectations and received said salary bump at the end of August.

    Now, everyone at my work is super excited about a letter they received with their paychecks that says they’re getting annual bonuses. I did not receive a letter and when I asked my boss about it, he replied that I don’t qualify for a raise because of the one I received in August.

    Is this normal? Or no, since it was part of a negotiated rate at the start of employment?

      1. Someone Else*

        I realize this may not help you not in your current position, but I’ve known people who in similar situations actually negotiated certain target-based bonuses for within their first however many months. Then they were still eligible for the normal raise cycle, but also had the extra cash from the bonus sooner. Basically it came out of salary negotiation that they wanted to start at X but company said no, only X-Y. So they agreed to start at X-Y, but if they achieved certain very high goals the company said “yeah if you actually pull that off, you’re worth the extra Y.” So then they got their Y as a bonus 3 months in, but 8 months later when annual raises happened, they still got it.
        Not every company would agree to that, and not every company’s raise policy would necessarily work out the way I describe, but it might be a tactic worth considering in the future, or at least asking about.

    2. Murphy*

      It’s crappy of them not to have explained to you a) how annual raises typically work and b) that your negotiation disqualified you for an annual raise.

      1. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

        It’s unfortunate but yes, this is pretty normal especially in a new job. This happened in my first job and I was pretty disappointed, but ended up with a bigger raise the next year that compensated for it. Maybe that’s something you can talk to your manager about to make sure you’re being paid fairly compared to your peers in the future.

    3. Tara S.*

      I don’t know about bonuses (I work in public education), but I know here a raise during a certain part of the year will disqualify you from receiving a merit increase. For example, our research staff are on a cycle where their merit raises would go into effect starting in October. If they already received a raise in May or later, they would be disqualified from receiving a merit increase. If they received a raise in April or earlier, they are eligible for the merit increase. I think it’s about having had enough time to “earn” the merit increase on top of the raise. Still, if your company works like that, they should have explained that to you.

      1. Where's My Raise? :(*

        Thanks for the answer. I agree they should have given me a heads up. I think they didn’t mention it because they were hoping I wouldn’t hear about the raises. But we all talk to each other, duh!

        1. valentine*

          If they’re on the level, there’s no need to hide this. They could’ve mentioned it at any time. Are these all merit raises? If they’re different amounts, you should come out the same or ahead. If x+y=z and, according to the regular raise structure, you earned z, you should argue that, having earned/received the negotiated x, you should now receive y, to bring you to where you’d be had there been no negotiation.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a normal procedure. Some places do allow for a small nominal raise for new employees in this case, we do that just as a standard COLA to keep people from slipping below the bar.

    5. Autumnheart*

      Pretty normal. My situation involved an actual bonus as opposed to a raise, but at the time, I was moved into a higher pay grade in August that qualified for the annual bonus, which are awarded at the end of the fiscal year, in April. I received a bonus in April, but it was pro-rated only for the 7 months that I was paid at the higher pay grade. Boo, but oh well. The following year, I got the full bonus.

  25. I’m going anon today*

    The lady that does my job at our sister location (very front facing, public role) was arrested Monday for possession of marijuana (very much illegal in our state) and evading arrest. Our boss is normally pretty forgiving about these types of things, but apparently our boss caught her with pot at work once before and she’s been warned about coming in to work under the influence, abc she’s uh, not the best employee anyway, so those things factored together ended in her getting fired. My heart goes out to her and I’m pretty pro-legalization, but that doesn’t change that it’s very illegal here.

    Then yesterday I got to use one of Alison’s scripts. The head of an industry competitor and I both serve on a prestigious local board. He’s the current chairman and the board has named me chair-elect, much to his dismay. We don’t like each other, but we play nice. Mostly. He’s male, mid-60s, I’m female, mid-40s. At his business, he’s two steps up the job ladder than where I am at work, but I’m much more well known in the community because I’m kind of the “face” of my business. I asked him a question yesterday and he gave me a bullshit non-answer that included a subtle dig about him being at a higher professional level than me. I quickly said with the most bewildered expression “What an odd thing to say! You’re in the community so much I thought surely…”. You get the idea. It was satisfying.

      1. I’m going anon today*

        When I went home and told husband, he said, “that’s a really good line.” I told him I got it here and he said he’s going to steal it too.

          1. I*

            He’s such a pompous ass that he doesn’t embarrass easily(if ever), but everyone else snickered or had a small smile.

    2. froodle*

      Ooooh i love a good “what an odd thing to say” burn. Saw someone in my office use it a couple of months ago on a weight shaming asshat and thank my about it still makes me smile. Masterful.

  26. Betts*

    Hi everyone! I’m curious if anyone has experience with older coworkers who may be showing some signs of confusion/forgetfulness/irritability as they age? I have a coworker who is about 75 and recently has been neglecting some tasks, says she never received information that I have in person given to her, and her mind generally seems to be elsewhere. I’m not sure if she’s having any kind of trouble or if she’s starting to get lazy/complacent with her job.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Yes. We have a campus admin about whom several of us are very concerned. She is easily confused, gets frustrated and lashes out at colleagues and sometimes students, and can’t remember how to do basic job tasks that she has been performing for over 30 years. The administration is aware, but we are afraid they are waiting for something bad to happen to justify getting involved. She has a lengthy drive each day and we are so concerned that she is going to get lost or hurt – or hurt someone else. We too welcome any advice!

    2. Tara S.*

      I have a coworker/manager I work with in her 70’s. I found her a bit frustrating a first for things like this (not grabbing the most recent file to pull numbers from, not remembering an email I sent) but I’ve shifted my perspective over time. She has a ton of institutional knowledge and is not hugely resistant when I bring up how we could change processes, so she’s been a good mentor and ally at work. For the other more “absent-minded” stuff, I’m just more matter of fact about things and have chosen not to get too wrapped up in it. It used to bother me a lot, but now I keep a light, matter-of-fact, not-blaming tone for dealing with the slip ups. “Oh, actually it’s this file, I think the number is actually $X.” “Oh, I sent that email last week. Would you like me to send it again?” In my case, these slip-ups don’t lead to any major errors, just a slight delay maybe, so I’ve learned to roll with it.

    3. bunniferous*

      Are most of the problems connected with short term memory? Then it absolutely could be a medical issue. My mother is a little older and starting to show similar behavior.

    4. WellRed*

      I had a coworker like this (she recently retired). It was less obvious and she’s only 65 but I wondered if I’d eventually have to say something. I was especially worried because her husband has his own chronic health problems along with a serious, related lack of executive reasoning. It’s hard.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      The symptoms you describe could be anything. If it’s health-related or personal, it’s not your business.
      However, you can focus on the ways your co-worker is affecting your job. Consider giving her information in WRITING. Annoying, yes, but you’d have proof you gave her needed info. If you have to talk to her boss, keep it job-focused and explain what isn’t getting done and what you need to get your work done.
      Best of Luck.

    6. LayoffLimbo*

      Maybe she recently got bad news and it’s distracting her from her day to day? I wouldn’t jump straight to “she’s getting old and going senile” if it’s really just recent.

    7. Snow Drift*

      A colleague of mine had this issue, it was absolutely the beginning of dementia (verified), and he was gently coerced into retirement. His work had significant safety risks, and it was not feasible to re-make the job to accommodate his decline. It was unfortunate.

    8. EvilQueenRegina*

      This is sort of timely because I was thinking about posting here about a coworker who has recently started asking me lots of questions about tasks which she has been doing for a few years, same as me, and these particular tasks haven’t changed. The idea of a medical issue has crossed my mind but I don’t feel I should bring it up with her. She recently gave me and another coworker two weeks of silent treatment over not showing up for a dinner that she had never actually confirmed an arrangement with us in the first place and I now wonder if that was a memory thing too.

  27. OlympiasEpiriot*

    GAAAAAHHHH!!! Proposed budget approvals!!!!

    There is one person who I sometimes have to work with who is fanatical about reducing whatever kind of budget I present by some amount. Then, when we have trouble producing the work product without going over budget, he reprimands us for not being efficient enough.

    No, mister-I’m-terrified-someone’s-going-to-think-we’re-too-expensive, I gave you a budget based on the hours we NEED to complete the job. My estimate was correct. You insisted it wasn’t. You were wrong.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      And even that budget was L-E-A-N!

      Instead, I had to bury the time into office tasks on my timesheet. Now my utilisation ratio gets affected.

      1. Tara S.*

        It’s annoying that this person is sort of forcing you into this situation, but, yeah, if you know they’re going to cut, build in some fat. Not the way it should be, but sometimes frustrating people force you into it.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          The absolutely most annoying thing about this is that I have worked with him and enjoyed working with him when he was the llama stable supervisor and I was a lowly llama driver. He is master of all technical llama knowledge, from breeding and illnesses to their interactions with jaguars and even foreign marsupials. I love working with him in all other ways except that now he is one of the Draft Animal And Team Rental Agency owners and is not cut out for the ownership fiduciary duties side.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            I absolutely love your wildly extended llama metaphor! I don’t think I’ve ever seen llamation done better here. :)

      3. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Sorry, what I should have included in my other answer to you was, at the moment, my strategy is to work with people between me and him on the letterhead who agree that my estimates are right and have them back me up and it gets into an odd intra-office negotiation. But, with smaller jobs, I don’t have that protection. Also, in the incredibly unlikely event that I get promoted into that letterhead level, I certainly won’t have the buffer; although, I might have other ways of negotiating at that point.

        I sometimes also have the benefit of having a client who specifically tells me to be conservative with the estimates — usually because we are part of a joint venture on a large, multi-agency infrastructure project and there will be a lot of approvals and coordination time that needs to be built in. Unless it is a lump sum, we only bill for time actually worked. Its not like we are scamming anyone here.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Is there a penalty for going over budget? Weigh that carefully against going over enough so that people see it’s a problem.

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            For agency jobs, the penalty is that I can’t bill more than the original contract without going through a change-order process. For something that is less than $1,000, it is not worth it because it frequently involves at least one other consultant. So, we eat it. For private jobs, it means we look sloppy to our clients AND there’s change orders. Or if a very small job, we just tack on the extra $500 bucks or whatever.

            It also leaves NO buffer if they come back with a question or a need for another clarifying conference call. I really prefer to leave one or two hours of billing value on the table (so to speak) when a job is finished rather than be half an hour over.

            I don’t get an official penalty. Just a perception on the review front. Which is almost entirely run in perception-not-quantitative-measurement way anyhow, and after all these years I shouldn’t care, but, I’m in One Of Those Moods Today.

            1. Master Bean Counter*

              Well if you’re in one of those moods…..
              Start tracking the original estimate, the amount you were asked to cut, and the amount that the job really cost. Prove to the chop shop guy that you really do know what you’re doing. Make sure to point all of the “free” work you are giving the client.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              It’s fun to think about a line item built into each estimate:
              Time Spent Arguing With Bob: 5 hours @$100/hr.

              I hope you can stop burying your time. That is really a form of falsely representing costs.

              He sounds like his an okay person overall. Can you talk this over with him objectively?

    3. LKW*

      Point it out. Point out the history. I gave you this, you cut it by this, we overspent by this. Had you gone with my original budget it would have been within a tolerable amount.

      Sometimes I like to point out that projects are bound by the rules of time and space.

      1. Binky*

        If I was any good at embroidery I’d have a little wall hanging saying “I cannot warp the space-time continuum, no, not even for you.”

  28. CastIrony*

    Hello. I asked a question about an internal position and the chance that I wouldn’t get the job two Friday threads ago.

    On the Monday after I asked my question, my supervisor and boss asked me to go into my boss’s office and privately told me together that despite having interviewed well, they chose to go with someone with more experience (while I was having the worst migraine in years, no less) and a stronger certificate, even though that was not in the requirements. I asked for feedback and even asked for more training because I have been working for them for over five years.

    However, because another similar position could likely take years to open up again, I am continuing to look for full-time work elsewhere as I change fields altogether.

    2. irene adler*

      I’m sorry they didn’t select you.
      But I’m pleased to see that you are advocating for yourself by looking elsewhere. Hope you find a company that truly values your skills- and you too!

      1. CastIrony*

        Thanks, irene alder, and I hope I find a job that values my work, especially since they chose my boss’s sister (My boss wasn’t part of the interviewing committee, at least.) It felt like such a slap to the face, but I’m getting over that now because I can’t change the fact, and it was fair.

  29. TotesMaGoats*

    Wednesday was a great day. My boss came and told me that he had nominated me for a special “rising stars” program at a local quasi chamber of commerce type organization in our city. It’s for people under 40 who will move into executive positions. This is huge because the group in my city that runs this is a major player and the connections will be amazing. I’m so excited because it’s something I’ve always hoped to be able to do. Fingers crossed that I make the cut.

  30. Dasein9*

    How much say do I have over the direction of my development as an employee? When the boss asks me to perform a task, I do as I’m asked to the best of my ability, because that’s what work is. But my supervisor, Fergus, has decided that I will be developed in a certain broad direction and it’s one I’m not interested in.

    Fergus wants me to be more of a lead for my team, checking in with colleagues and helping to manage workflow (with no raise or promotion). I am uninterested in managing people, enjoy making teapots, and want to be more involved with making exotic teapots. I might like to eventually use my extensive background in teakettle design and use to design teapots here, and the design team is seriously understaffed.

    At my evaluation early this week, I earned top marks in all objective criteria and was asked to a) become a team lead and b) do a better job managing my stress when projects get absurd. The stress issue isn’t over anything egregious, but was presented to me as an area that could use some attention. Managing other people stresses me out.

    Oh, and I’m classified as a kind of temp employee, without full benefits, and have been for 15 months with always a promise of promotion to full-time at some vague future time and increasing amounts of responsibility, including high-profile projects and training other members of staff.

    Do I actually have to become a people manager if I want to stay a bit longer?

    1. fposte*

      The answer to that question is “It’s up to the company.” But it sounds like it might be useful to just outright ask. “Hey, you guys seem to need me in management; while that’s interesting, I’d love to move more into design. Is that a possibility? Or is the management direction the one that would really matter for me to be taken on permanently?”

    2. Kes*

      Agreed with fposte. The company may want you to move in that direction. However, it may also be that your boss wants to develop you and help you move up and thinks this is a good fit. Have you talked to Fergus about what you want and are interested in (and about how you could become full time)?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I think it’s important to remember that you’re allowed to ask about what you want, not just what they want.

    3. valentine*

      If you’re incorrectly classified, they’re stealing from you. Now, they want even more, a faux-promotion that sounds more like team lead than manager. Do you want to stay there? Tell them the moves you’d like to make and include info about it being a permanent position.

  31. NerdyKris*

    I sent this in a few weeks ago, but I think it’s safe to post here with a bit of a change in focus:

    I’m in New Hampshire, right on the border of Massachusetts. A good chunk of the employees at my job live in Mass. The offices are in New Hampshire. Recreational weed was just legalized in Massachusetts as of the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. I know that the company drug tests and fired people for medicinal marijuana in the past. My original question was how to approach asking if that policy has changed given the new laws in a neighboring state. But now I’m worried that a lot employees are going to assume it’s okay, because people assume you can’t be fired for legal activities outside of work. Should I approach management about putting out a clarifying notice since they’re risking a lot of good employees failing drug tests?

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Yes, but I also think they need to double check with their legal counsel to make sure they are on solid ground about this. IANAL, but, I would think there might be some issues that would benefit from revisiting even if it doesn’t change anything.

    2. DiscoTechie*

      In Michigan here, the recreational marijuana ballot proposal passed and is set to go into effect shortly. A few days after the election we got a email from our company president reiterating our company drug policy which has a clause “any other substance which effects an employee’s ability to perform their job safely and competently.” Basically it iterated that the marijuana is still a banned substance in regards to our policy, our is more clear cut in that it states under the influence during work, possession of banned substances on company premises or in company vehicles, and criminal activity (on any time) is prohibited. The email was very chill and in a “just to clarify, weed is still a banned substance” .

      TL:DR A simple email reiterating your company’s policies regarding banned substances and the protocols around them and stating that marijuana is still banned substance at your work place should be helpful and provide a clear documentation of that policy being discussed/reinforced.

      1. LJay*

        This.

        We got a similar letter reminding us that even thought marijuana may be legal in some of the states where we live or work, it is still a banned substance under the DOT regulations (relevant to many of our positions) and still against our company drug policy, and that it was not okay for us to use it on or off the clock.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is a really great question and I wish I had a good answer. I mean, I do think you should remind folks that marijuana is still illegal on a federal level. So, it’s not really legal at all. I don’t know the best way to approach this, but maybe ask your supervisor if anyone has considered this? I’d also think it would depend on the work you are in. There are fields were even recreational use could be considered an issue.

    4. Doug Judy*

      So when I was in grad school one of my cohorts actually did a whole presentation on this. While it’s going vary by each company, the stance is usually that employees can still be fired because it’s still illegal at the federal level
      it’s s not legal in the state the business is located. It wouldn’t hurt to ask, but make sure it’s clear you aren’t planning a trip across the boarder.

      1. Tara S.*

        ^ Even in Colorado you can still get fired for smoking weed off hours. Workplaces are allowed to ban the use of it since it’s still federally illegal. (Ex: all CO state employees can be fired for using cannabis. I’ve never heard of them enforcing this, but they could.)

        1. Admin of Sys*

          What Tara said. Federal law still counts cannabis as a controlled substance, and as such, it’s usually covered under any/all drug policies at a company.
          But even if it wasn’t, afaik an at-will company is entirely permitted to fire you for something that’s legal in the off hours, assuming it’s not something related to protected class.

          1. Natalie*

            Oddly, this came up a while back with some letter, and as it turns out a number of states specifically protect certain off-hours legal behaviors, mainly tobacco use, but also in some states alcohol, political activities, etc. I think some of the laws were written about that broadly – i.e. protect any legal behavior.

            1. Natalie*

              (However, I should have noted that my recollection is that a number of the laws were amended to specifically *not* protect off-duty marijuana use, so it’s not necessarily relevant to the OP’s specific issue. Just interesting more generally.)

              1. fposte*

                I wonder if any of the states with tobacco use protections have gone legal on weed yet. Not that they have to overlap, but it’s kind of an interesting cognitive dissonance.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I was just thinking, but-but-but there are companies that will fire you for having a cigarette…

                2. Working Hypothesis*

                  Why cognitive dissonance? You can’t be fired for smoking cigarettes when you’re NOT on the premises of the business anywhere that I know of — only for smoking when you and your cigarette are physically located at the office. Nobody is disputing that companies can and do fire people for having legal weed on them while they and their weed are located at the office… of course they can. What the questions involve is whether they can/should be able to fire people for using weed on their own time and their own property, without the company’s space involved at all.

        2. Operational Chaos*

          Can also confirm Colorado on this. It’s something to be especially wary of if your company is based outside of the state where recreational is legalized even if you live in a state that it. They’re often seemingly more inclined to test you, especially if they’re looking for an excuse to bounce you. There’s been a handful of lawsuits regarding off duty activities for it, but until it’s federally legalized, it’s a play at your own (probably minimal) risk as for as employment goes.

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have lived in 2 states where marijuana became legal recreationally and while a handful of people questioned whether or not that meant that they could be fired for popping on a drug test, the vast majority of people understood that the company policy still forbid it because 1) it’s still illegal federally 2) it’s still a safety issue, it could impair your ability to do your job and 3) just because something is legal doesn’t mean your employer can’t prohibit it (think alcohol). The company I worked for did send out a reminder that company policy was not changing, even if the law was.

      But seriously, people can ABSOLUTELY be fired for doing legal things outside of work. In fact I have had to sign a code of ethics for multiple low level jobs that basically said if I did something that embarrassed the company, even on my own time, I could be fired. I mean I also worked in an at-will state, but yeah, you can be fired for what you do outside of work.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Yeah, you can be fired for just about anything. There’s a bunch of notorious people who were fired for writing racist tweets, being photographed giving the president motorcade the middle finger, being racist towards other people at their neighborhood pool (just a couple of examples that come to mind)… If it’s not a protected class issue, your company can fire you for being a bonehead in your private time despite the fact that free speech is in the Bill of Rights.

        People always seem to forget that protected speech does not mean consequence free speech, and that your government imprisoning you isn’t the same thing as losing your TV job…

        So, in this situation, it’s pretty obvious. Marijuana is still illegal federally and in New Hampshire. Your company can (different question as to whether they *should*) fire employees for using it. They could probably even do that if it was legal federally and in your state since recreational drug use is not a protected class.

    6. darlingpants*

      Did it just get decriminalized in NH as well? I don’t know when that kicks in but I think it’s worth approaching your company and asking them to clarify what the policy is in light of the legalization all over New England.

    7. ZuZu*

      I live in MA and our pre-employment drug test does still include marijuana testing, and if you fail, you can’t be hired (exceptions are made for medicinal patients). Recreational marijuana has been legal for a couple of years here, but the first dispensary opened last week. So, no legal changes recently except that now you can purchase weed at a dispensary. I would assume that if your company has not proactively notified employees of a policy change then there hasn’t been one.

    8. I want a nap.*

      Also in NH. My employer put out a memo as others described reiterating that: we only drug test employees legally required to be tested, and as those legal requirements result from federal transportation laws, there is no change in policy.

    9. Ama*

      I absolutely think pointing out to management that they should put out a clarification about the impact (or lack thereof) of the new laws on your company’s drug test policy is worth doing. If I recall, when Colorado and Washington first legalized a bunch of companies with offices in multiple states (including the NFL) sent around similar notices.

      In my personal opinion, when it comes to work policies, you are always better off assuming people need occasional reminders.

    10. epi*

      If that’s your company policy, yeah, they should clarify it now. Firing people for using medical marijuana is harsh bordering on ridiculous unless there is a regulatory or safety reason that use *outside of work* could affect the company or the work. That’s rare, frankly. People with a legitimate reason they should never be using marijuana, even therapeutically, even outside of work, generally know who they are. Others may not be able to predict that this will be your company’s stance.

      This could also depend on your industry. My husband works in an industry where recreational pot use is common and pre-employment drug testing is rare. If they get a client who wants it, it’s common for people to opt out of that project without penalty. I am a health researcher, so whether I will be drug tested (pre-employment, anyone could be tested for cause obviously) depends on: whether I work in government; whether my organization is focused on providing health care or is just adjacent to it. All of which is to say– even though your company is probably legally entitled to do this, they should be aware of how it will play with their own employees. If your company is dependent on a pool of employees in an industry where marijuana use is common and accepted, and whose home state has just legalized it, alienating many of them may come at a cost. But it would still be preferable to surprising people, if the policy and its implementation definitely won’t change.

    11. periwinkle*

      A clarifying notice would be a good idea. I work for a huge company with facilities in several states, including several in which marijuana is legal for medical and/or recreational use. We are a federal contractor and the official policy forbids marijuana use for either reason as it remains illegal at the federal level.

      Whenever a state in which we operate legalizes medical or recreational usage, we get a clarification notice (“nope, still against policy”).

      Whether or not employees actually abide by this policy, well, I wouldn’t count on it. But they can’t say they weren’t told and then reminded periodically.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you’re in a company that drug tests, it’ll always be an issue for even prescription meds that you usually don’t bother to disclose.

      As stated throughout, they drug test on federal standards. Until they remove pot from the drug screen test panel companies will still play fast and loose from a firing standpoint.

      They fired for medical use. They’re not going to suddenly change now that it’s legalized recreationally.

      Man…I appreciate my liberal wonderfully “duncur” bosses over the years. I haven’t had a mandatory test since 15 yrs ago, temping at the hospital.

    13. Elizabeth Proctor*

      As a point of clarification, recreational weed has been legal to use, possess, and grow since December 15, 2016. You just couldn’t purchase it anywhere through legal channels until last week.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I am in NY. People from Vermont or Mass drive into NYS with marijuana in their cars they can be arrested.
      However, in Albany County the district attorney is refusing to prosecute certain marijuana charges. Kind of interesting that the DA is announcing he won’t prosecute. Violation level charges are not really enforceable anyway because of the way the law is written.
      https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Soares-weighs-whether-to-end-prosecution-of-13394485.php

  32. Seeking Second Childhood*

    My facility is having construction work done on the property and this morning we lost power for ten minutes. I love my laptop — I lost no work, just the time it took to re-connect to a database and to the network when it came back up.
    When I first got to this company, there were a series of power outages and every time we lost power we all lost work. We could not get the powers-that-be to buy UPS units. Four of us could have had enough time to safely power down off of one $100 unit… but “just save more often” was the flat response.
    At the time I was responsibility for a couple of bloated graphics-heavy documents that required 60 seconds to save, so I was not impressed.
    And I love my laptop’s battery.

  33. Hailrobonia*

    Hooray! My useless slacker co-worker has announced he’s leaving! When he said “next Friday will be my last day working here” I wanted to say “I never knew you had even started working!”

    3. ten-four*

      Oh don’t worry, he’ll stay another week after his last “working” day for old time’s sake. heh

  34. Eugenie*

    Anybody have any tips for annual goal-setting? I’m feeling pretty unmotivated this year, our org has grown a lot in the last few years and taking on more projects just isn’t feasible for me. My organization doesn’t have any big strategic goals they’re working on that intersect with my department (at least to my knowledge). Honestly I just want to keep doing my work well, support my team, and be able to leave on time each day…but that doesn’t sound too ambitious, any suggestions?

    1. goto 1*

      Is there any particular skill you want to pick up, or learn to do better? Like a specific software you use in your job, or public speaking, or something like that?

      Or, if not in your job, in your outside work life. Do you want to learn wood-working? Or a different language? Or get better at cooking a specific dish? There’s several adult education centers near me and they have course booklets that I love to look through and think “one day”. But if you’re looking for inspiration, they’re packed full of them.

    2. I want a nap.*

      Also, “continue to complete high quality projects in a timely manner” is a valid goal. It doesn’t have to be something new.

  35. AnotherLibrarian*

    Lately, my anxiety has been over flowing into work. It’s small things that have stacked up. I have parents coming to visit, money is tight and I was just in a car accident. (I’m fine, but my car is not so fine.) I have a great therapist and we are working on a medication regime. However, I am just on such thin ice right now that tiny things suddenly seem overwhelming and I know I’m dropping the ball occasionally. What are your coping strategies for dealing with work when your anxiety disorder is flaring up?

    1. BeanCat*

      For dropping the ball, I try to keep meticulous notes of what I need to do. I write down to do lists, and the instant an email comes in I mark it to do if I can’t get to it right then. I swear some days I have an actual fog and can’t see what needs done except for the little red flags.

      Don’t be afraid to take a minute for yourself as necessary – I’m a receptionist, but there’s a back room attached to my desk where we store supplies and such and if I need a moment I go back to “stock the sodas”.

      Hang in there! You’ve got this.

    2. BeanCat*

      I’m glad you’re okay after the accident by the way! It’s so stressful even if you aren’t physically hurt. Take care of yourself.

    3. Janeitenoir*

      That stinks, I’m sorry. Usually I try to use work items that require a lot of focus, since then my anxious brain can’t start talking if I’m focusing.

    4. Ama*

      I have had good luck with meditation (although I know that’s very much a YMMV thing). I was really struggling this past spring and sometimes I’d just make myself get up and go outside, or if I didn’t think I could step away for that long, at least go hide in the bathroom and do one of the shorter guided meditations I had stored on my phone.

      One other thing I’ve had good luck with is making an “essentials” to do list on top of my overall to do list. Basically at the end of every work day (or sometimes further in advance if I really want to set out my week) I write down 3 or 4 things that I must get done the following day. They don’t have to be huge things or finishable things — when working on big projects sometimes I just write “work on X project”, I’ve also included things as tiny as “send that email to Jane.” If I am having a bad anxiety day (which for me often makes it difficult to even choose what to work on), I already have that list to refer to, and if those are the only things I can get done that day, I still consider the day productive because I got my essentials done.

      It’s really helped me avoid falling into that trap where I get little done for a few days or a whole week because of my anxiety and then have even more work to do to catch up, making my anxiety even worse.

    5. epi*

      You may want to talk to your therapist about approaches to specifically manage your anxiety. If it’s flaring up now, it may be worth moving it up on the treatment plan you are working on. Having your anxiety at least somewhat under control can help you get more out of your other therapy– just having the emotional energy to talk about the hard stuff, you know? One thing I know I struggle with when feeling a lot of anxiety is knowing when I need to put myself in a situation anyway and learn to tolerate the distress (gradually teaching myself over time that there is nothing to be quite so anxious about), and when it’s OK to just stop putting myself in a situation because it is stressful! That’s something a therapist can definitely help you clarify– especially since the answer may change over time– and you will definitely want their support if there are anxiety-provoking situations you have to put yourself in. Many people find CBT/DBT strategies helpful for anxiety– see what your therapist thinks.

      I also like an app called MoodSpace. It is primarily for depression but it has helped me with anxiety symptoms too. It prompts you to journal three good things that happened each day, “challenge warpy thoughts” which basically just means identify situations where you felt distress and think them through to see if you can reframe any part of them, and meditate. No ads, no in-app purchases, no weird overstepping health advice or pushing you to do anything controversial for managing depression/anxiety.

      I use a similar approach to Ama, with a big-picture essentials list. I try to keep it to five items at a time, but they’re the most important things on my plate at any given time and I can’t add more until I cross one off. I also try to keep it to things that are roughly equal in time sensitivity, so I feel free to choose whichever item I want. When I have to de-prioritize some things temporarily, I tell myself that I can trust myself to get to it later– I obviously care about it, since I am worrying about it now!

      Finally, consider being at least somewhat honest with someone at work. Only you know if this is right for you, but people experiencing this can feel *tons* of shame about what is happening, and feel like we need to hide it all. You might be surprised by what tasks are negotiable if you are able to tell your boss that some things just aren’t coming as easily to you lately. I would think the car accident would give you a good reason to say you’re having trouble staying focused right now, without getting into the details of your mental health or general anxiety.

  36. Junior Dev*

    I am starting a new job Monday–same company I worked at before, different department and set of responsibilities. Any advice from people who have made similar moves?

    1. Graciosa*

      Don’t assume nothing changed in your absence.

      One of the risks of returning to a company that you used to work at is that you assume you know more than you would at a new company (and you do). People training you may also assume you know more than you do and skip things that would alert you to important changes.

      It’s okay to make assumptions about non-critical items (like where the vending machines are), but check on any job critical items before taking action.

      This just means saying something like “So, are there any approvals required beyond FirstName, SecondName, and ThirdName before I [do action]?” if you haven’t received refreshed training on a process. That should help surface issues.

      Best wishes.

  37. Nervous Accountant*

    Yall, this was absolutely ridiculous. I never thought it would ever happen at my workplace, and I’d read the stories here about people stealing lunches and was so glad that despit ethe oddball characters, my coworkers weren’ t thieves.

    Welp. I had 2 cupcakes in my container. Came back to work the next day, and found that someone had taken one out of the box and eaten it.

    I can’t even be mad, b/c I had licked half the frosting off the cupcake before putting it away. WHO DOES THIS

    Clearly the person who had it needed it more than I did LMAO.

    I hope they enjoyed it.

    1. Kindly Pass Claudia Oreos, For Goodness Sake*

      I have joked several times in my life about having an “in case of emergency, break glass” kind of thing for goodies on bad days, but this really takes the (cup)cake …

    2. londonedit*

      They chose the one with half the frosting already licked off? When there was an intact cupcake sitting there as well? Not to mention the fact that they stole the cupcake in the first place, of course, but that is…really weird.

    3. Kathenus*

      Now if it was me, I’d make sure to tell some people (bonus points if they are office gossips) that you were amused that someone stole a cupcake that you’d licked frosting off of. I’d take great pleasure in the thief finding out, and my only regret would be not being able to see their reaction.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Ok so I found out more info today. I chat with the office manager and she said that someone had asked her coworker if the leftover cupcakes were for everyone. Usually, there’s always a box of cupcakes left over after a b-day celebration, so the person said yeah, anyone can have them. Even though these cupcakes were in a lunch container, and not the original box they came in, it seems like the person who answered didn’t know what kind of container it was in and the one who asked/took it, didn’t think of that. Later the coworker was talking to the office mgr, and he put 2 and 2 together. It’s pretty funny. The person who took it is a nice guy, and I hope he’s alright LOL.

  38. Dame Judi Brunch*

    I’m really proud of myself on this one.
    Earlier this week a manager was discussing a cleaning schedule for the kitchen and only named the women as he was trying to work out a rotation. I loudly and clearly said “You can’t assign the cleaning to just the women!”
    Point made and taken. No schedule as of yet, but at least I pointed out how it would look if only women were cleaning.

  39. ProperDose*

    Headphones at work:

    I work in an open office environment, on a very small team. It’s myself and my manager. I don’t have too many people approach me at my desk, and sit with a team that I don’t do too much cross functional work with.

    I’ve read that wearing headphones can signal that you’re not approachable, that you can miss out on conversations about work-related topics, etc.

    I’ve been in this position for about a month, so I’m still new.

    I personally wear earbuds. I’m trying to be aware of my surroundings, sometimes I will just leave one earbud in. I try to go parts of the day without them in. My problem is that I have a *really* hard time focusing on work without them in. The company I work for is extremely casual, we have speakers in the ceilings where anyone can put on a Sirus XM radio station, and sometimes it’s not what I want to listen to while I work. So that, combined with chatter, makes it hard for me personally to focus on my work. I focus significantly better with earbuds in (I realized this at my last job also, but I had been there for a few years). I also take them out *immediately* when someone turns to me, or wants to talk to me.

    Do you use music to work? Have you found it to have an impact on your professional growth? How higher-ups perceive you? Etc?

    1. Murphy*

      I listen to podcasts or music all day. I actually don’t like wearing headphones, but sitting in an open area and sometimes listening to non-work-appropriate content necessitates that I wear them. I also have a hard time focusing without it. I just need some noise.

      I also do the one earbud thing (unless it’s particularly loud in my office, which is rare) and my ear that’s facing out is the empty one. People don’t seem to have any problems coming up to talk to me. My boss or anyone else higher up has never commented on it, so I think it’s OK.

    2. coffee addict*

      I’d think that it’s fine to wear headphones all the time, most people in my office do. Earbuds don’t really the carry the unapproachable implication that they used to. Add that in with the fact that you’re in an open office, that it’s a casual workplace, and they already have music playing and it’s likely no big deal.

    3. Justin*

      I listen to music when the nearby desks are chattering on and on or if I’m really focusing. I am doing very well.

      That said, I only started with this once I knew I was doing very well at this job. So maybe feel it out for a while then gradually work it in.

      And if you’re worried about missing things, specifically go out for coffee (or whatever) breaks with people.

    4. Amber Rose*

      Everyone walks around here with earbuds. It’s pretty normal, and nobody says anything about it. It’s even in our company rules that you can.

      I NEED to listen to something. Anything. It’s intolerable to work without something I want to listen to. My shoulders start slowly rising up around my ears if I try to go without and I end up with tension headaches.

    5. Dragoning*

      I wear headphones. My coworkers just interrupt me if they need me. We do signs for “ON A CONFERENCE CALL” or “ON LUNCH BREAK TALK LATER.” We’ve also been given hand signs if someone wants to interrupt us and we’re trying too hard to focus.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      Wearing headphones is so insanely common nowadays that very few people bat an eye at it if it’s just ear buds. I know people who have specifically worn big noise cancelling headphones in order to try and get people to leave them alone, and some people do react to them that way, so I would avoid those if you’re concerned. But ear buds? Nah. Everyone has them in. If no one in your office ever wore head phones and you were the only one… meh, then maybe I would have a second thought about it. But still, everyone wears earphones all the time and just about everywhere these days.

    7. Asenath*

      I use headphones constantly – I can’t stand earbuds; they keep falling out with me. I’ve had no pushback or other adverse reaction at all, and it’s been quite a while since I started using them. But I have my own little back office, and few people come looking for me – when they do, I almost always notice the movement out of the corner of my eye (because of how my chair is placed relative to the door). As soon as I notice someone is actually coming to see me (aside from one of the few other people in my corridor) of course, I take the earphones off and speak to them. My work is almost exclusively on the computer, and generated by emails. I can hear the phone ring (on the rare times it does). Maybe I’m considered the office eccentric – but someone else, far senior to me, does sometimes play music in his office when he’s onsite, and that does come in for some criticism because the sound carries to other offices. The sound of my music never does.

    8. Kes*

      I work in an “open office”/bullpen environment, and there are often conversations going on, so I definitely use headphones to help focus. If I’m working with someone and expect them to be talking to me/asking questions a lot, I may just put in one earbud, but otherwise I put in both so I can focus and people can come over and wave at me to get my attention if needed, in which case I’ll obviously take them out to talk to them. Everyone else does the same, it’s pretty normal.

    9. It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's SuperAnon*

      I do wireless earbuds all day, they’re not very obvious so people come up to me all the time anyway. If you’re otherwise friendly and engaged in what’s going on around you I don’t think it’s a problem.

      BUT, I did have a friend whose manager made a point about her headphones and music-listening during her annual performance review. She was very good at her job, but they weren’t compatible as manager-employee and this was the one thing he was able to ding her on because he had other employees who did the same thing and were not reprimanded. If you have a manager like that I’d be wary, but otherwise it’s becoming more the norm.

    10. Kat in VA*

      I would go absolutely nuts if I couldn’t listen to music while I worked. I used to wear wireless earbuds that hook over your ears, but with just one in so I could hear. People kept assuming they were some kind of Bluetooth headset and would do the “Oh you’re on the phone!” double-take, so I switched over to a teeny-tiny* Bluetooth single earpiece that’s very inconspicuous and that works better. If I don’t want folks to know it’s in, I wear my hair down.

      My daily mix is anything from Metallica to Mozart to Vitamin String Quartet to pop songs. Work would be so, so boring without music.

      *by teeny-tiny, I mean the size of a medium grape. The music quality isn’t awesome but it’s enough to keep a steady stream of happy music flowing into my head at all times.

    11. AnonJ*

      I am a manager and I allow my reports to use headphones or earbuds. One report I check in with frequently always get startled when I make whatever moves or sounds I need to in order to get her attention. Another often requires I speak loudly multiple times and hover over him to get his attention (he wears an earbud in one ear and a hearing aid in the other as he is hard of hearing). So, for me as a manager, it is a struggle. I want to let them do these things but I find it a burden. I have to startle or successively raise my voice or invade personal space to get their attention, which I’d rather not have to do. I’m not going to stop them from using these things but I wish they’d never become the norm.

      1. Kat in VA*

        One of my work buddies has hearing loss – to the point where he has custom hearing aids, but they don’t help much. He does a lot of lip reading and I raise my voice when I can.

        To avoid startling him when I walk up to his desk, I start heavy-heeling it (hitting heel first then toe) five or six steps before I get to his desk. That way I don’t have to say HI FRANK and startle him, or wave a hand and startle him because he can feel the thud thud of my heels hitting as I approach.

  40. Lady Slipper*

    Looking for some advice regarding applying to entry-level tech jobs.

    My girlfriend is almost done with her computer science BS, and has an unrelated BA. She also has several years of work experience in various entry level jobs in various industries, nothing tech. Right now she works in a call center and wants a new job. I don’t know much about the tech industry, but she’s convinced that any job she interviews for will have a technical portion and that she won’t know enough to pass it. I think that’s simply not true because one, not every company simply has good enough hiring procedures to do technical interviews, and two, she’s been studying CS for 3 years, I’m sure she knows enough to get something. (I tell her she needs to impress upon the interviewers that she’s eager and teachable.) I don’t think she needs to be shooting for something that’s going to put her on track for the rest of her career, just something that’s going to be better for her resume than a call center.

    Those with experience in the tech industry, what do you think? What sort of jobs should someone with her experience should she look for? She just needs something for a year or so as she finishes her degree, and we live in an area with a lot of tech companies, so hopefully she can find a company where she can get a foot in the door and then stick around.

    1. coffee addict*

      For computer science, you’re likely to have a technical portion of the interview if you’re looking at positions at start-ups, finance, or companies like Google, Amazon, etc. If it’s for IT positions, probably not. However, there’s probably not going to be a “technical” interview until at least the second round and in my experience you at least have an idea of what it’s going to be (language, type of program, things like that). I’ve seen technical CS interviews ranging from “write an entire program in this room in six hours” to “explain how you would approach this program” to “take this project home and send it to us next week.” But again, you generally have an idea of what it’s going to be so you can prepare for it.

      I would absolutely recommend looking at internships or co-ops as opposed to a defined full time job and to look for them both through her school and on job-searching websites. These can be incredibly helpful in terms of career development and can pay very well. It’s going to be hard to find a full time job at a tech company while you’re still in school.

    2. Kes*

      So, there likely will be a technical interview portion, but a) coming out of school she should be in a good position to be able to handle it, b) interviewers don’t expect you to be perfect, especially as a new grad, they more want to see how you think and problem solve, c) there are resources you can use to prepare for such interviews – if she’s nervous, she should look up some of them and do some practice to prepare, and d) even if she doesn’t get a job right away, doing such interviews is good practice (in fact, when I started looking for my first job out of school, I mentally wrote off my first interviews as practice, to take some of the pressure off myself. Of course, I then ended up getting the job anyway).
      I know it’s intimidating, but she needs to dive in and get experience with that type of interview.

      Also agreed with coffee addict that internships or co-op terms can be great if her school offers them. But if not, she should just go ahead and start applying to full time jobs if she’s almost graduated. Also keep in mind that tech is pretty generally in demand, so there’s a good chance she will be able to find a job, quite likely more easily than she thinks.

      1. JxB*

        It really depends on the position. A truly technical position like web administrator, programmer, etc. – of course – needs the specific skills for the job. My history major daughter had great success interviewing with tech companies for ancillary roles related to operations or sales. Many were very upfront that they were looking for critical thinking skills and abilities – the specific tech part could be learned on the job. Moreover, if your GF has a computer science degree, she’s already positioned for tech. It’s just a matter of getting her foot in the door and starting out somewhere. A lot of my tech friends advocate tech support jobs (in person or call center) because you learn so much in such a short period of time. But there are just so many jobs in IT. Everything from crazy-don’t-understand-half-of-what-you-say technical positions to business can communication roles that just happen to dovetail into the IT team.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If she’s gotten through 3/4 of a computer science degree, she should have the knowledge she needs to get through the technical part of an interview for an entry level tech job – junior developer, junior systems administrator, that sort of thing.

      Technical interview is often thought of as a whiteboard coding exercise (because Google used to do it that way, so “everyone” followed suit), but that’s becoming less common as companies realize it mostly shows you know how to write code on a whiteboard, not actually solve problems.

      In my company, the technical portion of an interview mostly focuses on two areas: high level programming concepts (fundamentals of Object Oriented Programming and JavaScript gotchas, mostly), and questions to identify how you solve problems (what are your sources, how do you find and evaluate them, what’s your workflow). We assume that someone entry levels who has a good grasp of the fundamentals, knows how to start looking for solutions, and is willing to learn is someone we can teach the details. We plan on teaching those details to new hires.

      A company who expects an entry level IT employee to rewrite their entire architecture and add mobile apps for iOS and Android, integrate with Facebook and Google and Amazon, and keep it all up to the latest standards all on their own has no idea what they’re looking for. I, a mid-level rapidly approaching senior, could only manage the first thing on that list, and I would NOT be happy about it if I were expected to do it solo.

      I heartily endorse the previous suggestion to look for a co-op or internship through her school. Companies that are partnered with the school for these programs know they’re getting students with little to no experience, so eager and teachable counts for a lot.

      If her school doesn’t have a co-op/internship program, I’d say call center experience plus a partially completed computer science degree would put her in a good position for a job on a help desk. Still call center work, but with a more technical focus, and it shows an obvious progression to more technical roles.

    4. Ladyb*

      IT Director here.
      With contact centre experience and a tech degree, I’d suggest looking for a first line support role in a medium sized organisation.
      It’s a great way to gain some practical IT experience across the board and find out what areas of IT you’re interested in/good at. The contact centre experience will be attractive to employers because it demonstrates customer facing skills.
      No one will be surprised if she wants to use that role to pivot into a different part of IT after a year, It’s pretty much accepted path and most sensible employers will support it.

    5. Kimmybear*

      I would be cautious of technical employers that don’t do some basic technical test. As others have mentioned, it can be as simple as asking what your process would be for troubleshooting or debugging. I worked at one software company that didn’t test and then we had to fire lots of people who didn’t have the technical skills they claimed to have. They started testing. Now, if you are interviewing for tech support at a medium sized company, I wouldn’t expect that but it can also be great experience.

    6. spoon*

      If an internship or coop isn’t an option and for whatever reason she needs a full time regular job, check out local government. We pay less so we’re more flexible about exact qualifications and experience. We still do a skills test, but having the BA will allow HR to check the ‘has diploma’ box. We were excited to hire someone in a similar situation a while back because the rest of the panel was underwhelming and the student showed a solid grasp of the basics and an interest in learning the skills and languages they didn’t have yet. Local government jobs are posted in weird places sometimes. Check their website directly, not just indeed, and look at all iterations such as city, county, police, etc.

    7. ten-four*

      You’re both right! She’s correct that there almost certainly will be a technical element to the interview. You’re correct that she should apply around and find a job where she can pass the technical interview, and that it doesn’t have the be the BEST PERFECT JOB, it just has to be a foot in the door. There are indeed lots of practice technicals online to practice on, and she’ll probably blow a few interviews like all of us do.

      It’s super smart of her to try to tackle this while she’s still in school! My company hires from our internship pool all the time. She’s in a terrific position to go get relevant experience before hitting the job market full time. The worst case scenario is that she doesn’t land a technical job while still in school, which isn’t so bad! The best case scenario is that she sets herself up for a much better job on graduation. I wish her luck!

      1. Jennifer85*

        Chipping in here – for junior roles some companies want very specific experience whereas others are prepared to do more on-job training/ are aware that not everyone’s done the same languages etc. Those kind of companies the technical portion is more likely to be pseudo code, problem solving, or answering questions about development process, vs ‘sit down and write me some code’.

        A comp sci degree should cover most of that but it may also be worth thinking about doing a small side project to look more interested – or expanding on one done during the course if the course had a decent practical element. Looking at it from the perspective of ‘ok what would I need to do to this code if someone else wanted to work with it/add to it/evolve it in future’ could be a good exercise in showing she’s thought about the practical side of development rather than just the theoretical.

  42. Ms. Mad Scientist*

    Sharing some good news today: Mr. Mad Scientist has accepted an offer for a new job! He gets an increase in pay and PTO. I’m also kind of excited because the hiring manager is a woman (male dominated industry). I hope everything works out!

  43. hey nonny nonny*

    Er … this is a weird situation for me personally, being relatively new to my field, but hopefully somebody knows how I might be able to handle this gracefully.

    I want to apply for what is more or less my dream job at a university, in a different department than I am working in now. I would have to be stupid not to put an application in. I do not want to tip my boss off at all, as finding out I’m looking will end very, very poorly for me if I don’t get the job, and will likely go poorly anyway and make my notice period awful. (Loyalty is important to this person. People on the non-faculty side have been in this department for decades, and this is somehow expected.) This would normally be fine – I’d just ask they not contact my current manager until we’re at a solid point, etc. – but my previous manager before this one is pretty good friends with them, since it’s a small university and people talk, and I don’t really trust them not to say something to my current manager.

    How on Earth do you navigate something like this? These are my only two university references, so I need to use at least one, but if I use the first they’re bound to talk to one another and it’ll tip my current manager off, which will undoubtedly make my life miserable.

    Gaaaaah.

    1. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry, I don’t know if there’s anything you can do to be certain it doesn’t get back to your current boss. I’ve applied to internal positions, and my boss always got contacted, even though I didn’t list them as a reference. I was luckier than you when it came to bosses, so it wasn’t that bad, although I was still a bit miffed. I didn’t explicitly ask that my boss not be contacted, so you could try that, although ugh you may need to put the request in your application since sometimes people reach out even before the interview. You’re the only one who can really know if the risks are worth it, but it’s your dream job! And moving departments at a university is super normal, so your boss is the one in the wrong here. Best of luck! Sorry norms make this situation so impossible!

    2. Kathenus*

      Yeah, it sucks, but you may not have control on this. What you can control is deciding if the potential upside of the job is worth the potential downside if you don’t get it and current boss finds out. And you can proactively think of how to respond if current boss does find out and asks you about it so that you’re prepared with your response. And you can definitely ask that this be kept confidential and hope for the best if you decide to apply. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Good luck.

    3. Kes*

      That sucks. Since it’s an internal posting, you probably can’t keep word from getting back to your boss. I would just be ready with how to respond, and maybe even consider whether it would be better to get out ahead of it and talk to them before they find out. I would probably play up how you are happy there and weren’t planning to leave but you happened to hear about this posting that was so closely aligned to your skills that you couldn’t let it pass by

    4. Colette*

      I think you need to tell your boss. Explain that this is your dream job, and that you’d hate to leave since your boss/ the department has been so good to you, but that you want to take a shot at it.

      You can leave without being disloyal, and I think that approach will work out better for you than just hoping she doesn’t find out.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Maybe try “I thought I’d be here forever, ha ha, but this position opened up and it’s just so perfect. I think I have to apply for it. And if I don’t get it, I get to stay here, so it’s a win-win situation for me!” In other words, emphasize that you’re not LOOKING, you just happened to have a perfect job come knocking on your door. (Even if that’s not the case.)

  44. The Other Dawn*

    I’m applying for a job at a company headquartered in Canada–I’m in the US. If I were to be hired, I’d be a remote employee since there are no offices here. Is there anything I need to ask them or anything in particular I need to think about that could be a concern? This is my first time applying for a job outside the US.

    1. Auntie Social*

      You wouldn’t ever work in Canada, even for training purposes? I just wondered if you’d need a work visa from Canada if you ever went back and forth.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I actually don’t know. I know I’d be there occasionally, but I’m not clear on whether that would be actual work or more for annual social occasions. I haven’t applied yet (plan to this weekend). It’s something I can ask a contact there, but I don’t want to be a PITA to her at this point. Plus I’d probably seem like I’m getting ahead of myself. I so have a passport, so that at least wouldn’t be an issue.

        I’m curious about taxes, health insurance and things like that, too.

        1. Ali G*

          Do they have other workers in the US? I worked for a company that had half staff in the US and half in Canada (US based). Basically we had to have 2 sets of everything – benefit packages, vacation packages (Canadians have so many more Holidays than we do!), etc. So like, you would need a different payroll manager, because their taxes and stuff are different. But if they are already set up to have workers in the US you shouldn’t have any problems or have to do anything. It’s all on them to prove to the government that your hiring is necessary rather than hiring someone in Canada already.
          We traveled across the border a lot, and all we ever said was we were going to a meeting. We never had any border problems.

          1. The Other Dawn*

            Yes, there are some remote workers in the US. I do have someone I can contact that’s in the US, but I figured I’d ask here first since I haven’t even applied yet and don’t want to bombard her with questions.

      2. Misses Montreal*

        I’m not sure you need a visa if it’s just temporary. I worked for a company that had US based offices and opened one up in Montreal. During setup, we worked in Canada for a few weeks without needing any additional paperwork. We had to come back every other weekend to keep from needing said visa, but otherwise it was fine for short jumps.

    2. Nanc*

      If they have remote U.S. employees they’re probably pretty on top of “stuff.” Off the top of my head I’d want to know:
      Phone calls–will they issue you a phone/cell phone/VOIP number, etc., or is it all on your own plan.
      Office supplies–if you’re using your own computer and printer do they reimburse for paper, toner, the special paper clips they require, etc.
      VPN access–if you have to be on a VPN system to access their stuff I’d want a separate computer/laptop (if they supply the computer it’s not a problem, but if you’re expected to use your own I’ve found VPNs a right royal pain and ended up requesting a laptop).
      Speaking of computers–IT support! Again, if they have a lot of remote workers they’re probably on top of this.
      Holidays–U.S./Canadian, which ones apply to you.
      Health benefits, since you’re in the U.S. do they pay a stipend, reimburse you for your own insurance or other.

      Hopefully this stuff will be addressed in the interview process. You might also poke around their careers page and see if they have any sort of employee handbook–you never know.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Based on the conversations I had with two people at that company–one remote and one on-site–I don’t think any of these things are going to be a problem. They are very progressive and on top of things. Also, my company is a client so I’ve talked to people there a lot over the last few years and have attended some of their conferences. Holidays–I didn’t think of that one!

        1. Nanc*

          Had you asked this question a month ago I wouldn’t have thought of holidays either. We have a ton of Canadian and UK clients and with the Thanksgiving holiday last week we spent a lot of time rejecting meeting requests and Thursday/Friday deadlines.

          Good to hear you already have the inside scoop, so to speak.

  45. Raven*

    I got an email earlier today from an internship that I applied to about two weeks ago. The application stressed that you MUST have absolutely all materials in before the deadline and incomplete applications will not be reviewed. Fair enough, but I got an email from them earlier today saying, “hello Raven, we have received your application. Please ensure that you have submitted all necessary materials.”

    I got sort of paranoid about this, because everything that I personally needed to send – – cover letter, resume, application form itself, portfolio — I not only sent but also proofread twelve million times.
    The application also requires two written letters of recommendation to be sent either from the applicants or directly from the writer. One of my letter writers has already assured me that he sent it in, and I have no reason to doubt him.

    But my other recommender, who was my internship supervisor this summer, said, yeah, I would be happy to write you a letter for this! And I said, awesome, thanks, it’s due on Saturday the 17th, let me know when you’re done. (I told her this on Tuesday of that week, and she’s usually pretty good about doing things with fast turnaround.) HOWEVER, what is stressing me out about this is that she never sent me a follow-up to say, hey Raven, just sent in your letter!

    But now this email has made me paranoid that maybe she hasn’t sent it? Should I be interpreting the “please make sure you have everything“ as just a form letter or is it something that an employer would maybe passive aggressively do as a sort of, hey, hint, something is missing! type thing?

    Anyway, my biggest question is, how do I ask the supervisor, hey, have you sent in my letter? I want to make sure that I can actually ask it and that my asking it won’t make her think that I think of her as someone who would have dropped the ball on this, which I don’t think she would have in most situations.

    Or am I just overthinking this altogether?

    1. Scooper26*

      Sounds like it’s just a form email. It probably got sent to everyone who applied regardless of whether they sent in all materials

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      Could you send an email thanking your supervisor for the letter? It operates on the premise that she did send, and would give her a reminder if she didn’t.

      Good luck! I hope everything has been submitted and the email is just a formality.

    3. bdg*

      “Hi Supervisor,

      Thanks so much for agreeing to write that letter of recommendation for me! I’m just doing a triple check that all of my materials have been submitted and wanted to confirm that you were able to get it sent in ok.

      Please let me know if you had any issues, and thanks again for taking the time to help!

      Sincerely,

      Me”

    4. Kes*

      Sounds like a form email, but I would check in with the supervisor that she sent it, just pretty casually – hey, thanks so much for agreeing to be a reference for this, I just wanted to check that you did send it in since I haven’t heard from you, thanks again, ___

  46. Diana Prince (not Wonder Woman)*

    I want to publicly thank Alison for writing back to me the other weekend. My dad had dies (we were estranged, but it was still tough to lose a parent) and I was barred from going to the funeral but I asked if it was appropriate to take bereavement leave. My boss was going to be out of town for the week anyway so my absence wasn’t going to be a big deal, and I have bereavement time to use. I just felt guilty for needing time off and Alison told me to take the time that I needed. So, thank you.

    1. Dame Judi Brunch*

      I’m so glad you took time for yourself! I know what you’re going through. My estranged father died last summer. It was wonderful to have the bereavement time available. I had to use a day for self-care and I grieved again for what could have been.

      1. Diana Prince (not Wonder Woman)*

        Grieving for what could have been was exactly what I did. Thank you for putting it that way.

        1. Dame Judi Brunch*

          I was at peace with the estrangement, but the death just made it so…final.
          Everyone is different, but that time to grieve was very much needed.
          The only time I cried was when I read the obit. They called him a loving father. It was such a slap to the face!

          2. Wishing You Well*

            The obit for my father was so saintlike, I had to recheck the name.
            Sanitizing is standard practice in obits, but that doesn’t prevent some silent eye rolling.
            I wish things could have been better for all involved.

            1. MsChanandlerBong*

              That happened with an uncle of mine. My mother said it should have been on the NYT bestseller list for fiction.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              So the obit writer did not include you. That sucks. You definitely needed some down time (and you may want more time, too) to grieve all the crap that is going on here. I am so very sorry.

          4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I’m reminded of the glorious obit that ran months ago somewhere in the Midwest for an estranged mother. Calling her out even in death for her bad behavior towards her kid(s). Maybe it’d be cathartic to rewrite it for your own sake and not necessarily publish!

            1. Dame Judi Brunch*

              That’s a great idea! I’m going to do this! But not publish. It will be very therapeutic.
              Thank you!
              On top of it all, the funeral gave me a migraine!

    2. ..Kat..*

      Just because you have been estranged doesn’t mean you don’t have loss(es). I am glad that you took the time off to deal with this. Internet hugs if you want them.

  47. AnyaT*

    I’ve just been rejected for an internal position on my own team and I am so demoralized I can barely even speak to my co-workers anymore. I work in local government and have been in my job for almost 11 years. There are not a lot of positions that open up in my area of expertise (more policy than operations). Twice in the past 11 years a position has come available and both times I applied. The first time I got through to the interview stage but didn’t get the job. The second time I didn’t even get an interview. Now this past fall a new position was created (rare for government!) on the team I actually work on, and dealing with some of the issues I have been working on. Got through to the interview stage and I really thought I had it this time.

    Four weeks go by and no word. Then my manager tells me that they went with someone else, the usual platitudes about having a lot of strong candidates, etc. I was disappointed but was ready to pull through. Then they announced the successful candidate: our former intern from 4 years ago. I helped mentor her when she started with us just out of grad school. I have 15 years of policy experience, she has 5, and they decided she was a better choice for a role that is higher up than mine and pays more.

    I feel so devalued. Clearly I don’t have any worth to this organization. I don’t want to be here, I don’t want to speak to anyone, I just want to find another job, email my resignation and walk out the door that day. The only thing keeping me going through the day is my grad school courses – I am coming to the end of a Masters program and maybe that will get me out of here.

    1. Murphy*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry. I’ve been there and it sucks. I’d been passed over for someone who had been there just as long, but was a part time employee, and not a particularly good or reliable one. (I had random people coming up to me for weeks expressing their disbelief.) I hope you can get out of there soon.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, no, I’m so sorry. It does sound like you’re on a departing trajectory anyway, with your new master’s. Do you think if you asked your manager for a more in-depth conversation about where you’d need to grow you could get more useful information? Sometimes the “tell me two or three things to work on” approach allows people to point to things they wouldn’t be comfortable naming as weaknesses.

    3. Michelle*

      I’m so sorry. We had something similar happen just a few weeks ago in another department (I’m an admin, the other department was guest services). Full time position opened, 2 people who have been here for about 6 years applied and they went with an outside applicant, with no experience in our field. They both asked for feedback about what would make them better/stronger candidates and they were told “oh we can’t think of anything maybe next time”. The kicker is they asked the 2 rejected applicants to train the new person and get him “up to speed” because the manager “didn’t have time” to train him. I know training coworkers is normal practice but it really stung that neither of these 2 current employees were good enough/chosen for the job, but they have to train the person how to do the job.

  48. Newbie McGee*

    I’m a new manager over a department, and one of the people I supervise is having a really hard time managing her time. She signs up to be on all sorts of company-wide committees and work events that take away from her time at her desk… and I really need her to be at her desk. Sometimes I find out about these obligations of hers through the grapevine, like “well, Sarah is on this hiring committee” and it’s honestly at this point kind of hard not to freak out because she doesn’t have time to be doing that. To be clear, I’d be okay with it if she had a history of managing her time well, but we’re short-staffed right now and I’ve had to stay late at night frequently (nightly) to finish her work. I’ve tried to have this conversation with her before, but it didn’t stick.

    any suggestions? I really don’t want to ban her from participating in company events or micro-manage her time because that seems unreasonable, but as a new manager, I’m not sure what is.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s totally reasonable to say, “Right now I need your priorities to be XYZ. I’ve had to stay late a few times recently to finish projects like X and Y for you. So for now, I want you to hold off on your involvement with committees and work events like ___. We can revisit that in a few months if things are more under control.”

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      I think it’s completely reasonable to tell her that while you very much are happy that she is participating in company events and taking advantage of those opportunities, you need her to balance her involvement with those things with her commitments to her day to day job. Sit her down and tell her she needs to pick 2 committees/events/whatever that she wants to participate in, and she will need to withdraw from the rest. Or whatever number. Or say you can only spend 3 hours a week on non-job-related-things, and she can pick whatever commitments fall in line with that.

      As someone who has had a coworker who would do this, it drove me nuts because I was the one staying late all the time picking up their slack while they were off at the company sponsored yoga class three times a week plus the Christmas party planning committee plus the committee for beautification of the stairwells and so on and so forth. It will be good not just for you but for everyone on your team to have some balance.

      1. Wintermute*

        I think “pick two” is needlessly patronizing and micro-managing, to be honest.

        I would, personally, just tell her “I’ve had to stay late to do X, Y and Z, on days you’ve been working on other things. I need you to be getting all your work done before you volunteer for extra projects and meetings. If you’re not consistently completing all your assigned work, it will jeopardize your job here.”

        That’s the information she needs she doesn’t have right now, that there’s a priority system in play. It should be obvious to her but it’s not, maybe she comes from a workplace where participating in extra stuff was how you got attention that lead to promotions and raises and your daily work wasn’t valued much, maybe she doesn’t understand the impact it’s having, who knows? What the Newbie McGee needs is her work done, consistently and regularly on time and what she needs to know is that not doing your work will lead to discipline.

        If this has been a pattern for a long time I would talk to her before you begin any disciplinary actions, but if you have a very long process then it might be worth starting it the next time she doesn’t finish her work for the day.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One place I worked the new boss handled it by saying, “You can be on a committee or whatever but you have to find someone to cover your work while you are away from your workplace. Your work has to be completed and NO deadlines can be missed.”
      Of course, no one would cover for anyone because they too were buried. This quickly lead to no one taking on extra committee work. This is not micromanagement because it is up to her to figure out how to do these committees and still have her work in on time.

      If she gives you too much static tell her you will not be staying late any more to finish her work for her. Which brings me to a general idea that is good to hold on to: Don’t try to save people from their own poor choices. If her work is incomplete and ordinarily a person would be written up for this, then do the write up (or verbal warning, which ever). Make sure you are treating her the same as you would treat everyone else.

  49. The Other Dawn*

    For those who work at home full-time, do you have any tips for making it work? How did you make the adjustment from being in the office to being at home? As mentioned above, I’m applying for a job and I’d be working from home if hired. I’ve done it from time to time, typically for a day here and there, and once for a week after surgery.

    1. NeverNicky*

      This is what works for me. Have a routine. Make sure your home is at a tolerable level of tidiness before you start each working day (otherwise it will bug/distract you). Get the best kit your budget/company budget will allow – no dining table desks! Take advantage of being home to have whatever you want for lunch, and your favourite drinks. Call or skype colleagues rather than email, unless you need a paper trail. Have an office with a closeable door – either to stop distractions when working or to put a full stop on your day. Don’t work silly hours – but do shuffle them to suit you. Make sure you have some time outside the house and ramp up your social commitments – you will probably find at first you need company. Join your local professional organisation and go to meet ups. Work in a coffee shop from time to time to feed off the energy (if you don’t work with confidential papers).

      I moved to working from home full time 3.5 years ago and it suits me well. It is hard though, you do need to be focussed (most of the time), resilient and self contained.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thank you! Yes, having a separate office is something I will definitely need. Although I have a proper desk setup, it’s in a room that the family room, kitchen, living room and dining room all branch off of, which means basically being at the mercy of my cats and my husband (if he’s home from work or working a different shift). I have a spare bedroom I can convert.

        1. valentine*

          Don’t shut yourself away. Stay in the current room or move to one of the branches if there’s light and space. Hubs can go in the spare if he wants to be a pain.

        2. Wintermute*

          I think a spare bedroom is ideal especially if you have cats, it’s not quite right but the sudden appearance of animals on a conference all isn’t a great look, it looks like you’re, well, at the mercy of your cats.

          I ran my own home office for a part time job right out of college and I found the most important thing was not letting it take over your life. The ability to fill out your time accounting, get up, close the door and be “out of the office” for the day was psychologically invaluable. Otherwise there’s always a temptation to try to do this, or that, or check if you got that email.

          The other reason is it gives all your work stuff a home, otherwise it’s too easy for your work to explode all over your house and start creeping out of its assigned place, both in your home and your life!

      2. BRR*

        I work from home a lot of the time and this is all great advice. Set up was very important to me. Getting two external monitors and a decent chair made a noticeable improvement. One person said they go for a walk before and after work and that was their “commute” which I really liked.

      3. Hamburke*

        Hubby and I both worked from home at the same time. He loves it, I prefer working in an office with a few work from home days.

        We kept a morning schedule (easy bc we have school age kids), set an alarm for the end of the day (turns out we can both be workaholics), hired out some of our chores and made sure to leave the house regularly – for errands, dates and social occasions.

        I loved working with my husband (different companies) but crave more social interaction. I tried meeting people for coffee, making sure to check in with my co-workers but with such a small team, it wasn’t enough. I found a new job which is more interesting, interacts more with clients and vendors as well as working in an office with coworkers.

    2. goto 1*

      It works great for me! I can eat lunch when I want, I can play music, it’s fantastic. The adjustment was so much easier than I expected.

      The one thing is that it can be easy to become a hermit, so make sure you have errands (if you have kids/pets, this becomes easier, but I don’t have that) or other things to get you out the door.

    3. msroboto*

      Always shower and “get ready” for work…No staying in the jammies unless very sick.
      Have some coffee or breakfast or whatever gets you going
      Go out for lunch sometimes. I was bad at this and should have done it more.
      Try to have a few regular evening activities..gym, bowling league, trivia night something to get out
      Bonus I didn’t put many miles on my car during that time

  50. Alternative Person*

    So, it looks like the co-worker who was padding their time card is leaving soon. I’m not unhappy or particularly surprised, best I can tell she was padding at least three hours a week before the clampdown, if not more (why she was allowed to get away with it for so long is another deal but whatever). Then she started complaining about having her salary taken away. Just urgh.

    Unfortunately, it looks like they’ll drag their heels about finding a decent replacement, if at all because my manager is going to assign me some of her work even though it is technically out of my scope (it’s scope adjacent so I can do it, it’s just not my regular jag).

  51. Rhymetime*

    Earlier this year, I was about to begin a new job and asked for advice about tone-setting with the employee I’m supervising, because I was about to be a manager for the first time in decades and my report had been in the job in a new field for only a couple months themselves at that point. Here’s an update on how things are going.

    I asked for informal review from my manager, and he said he’s pleased with my performance. I’m lucky that my employee is outstanding, which has made things go smoothly. Because of the nature of our work, my employee has been instrumental in getting me up to speed. After I’d been in my position for six months, I took my employee out for lunch to thank them for helping me land well. Afterward, my employee sent me a thoughtful note about how much they and our co-workers appreciate everything I contribute, and thanked me for helping my employee succeed.

    I’m thriving in my position, so thanks to everyone who helped me have a great start!

    1. Kathenus*

      What a great update! Congratulations and thanks for sharing a success story that we can all use to help model our own actions to benefit our own coworkers and direct reports.

  52. JennyFair*

    Yesterday was my boss’s last day. I’m emotional today for that (I was very fond of him) and a host of other reasons, and just wanted to stay in bed and hide, but now I have to be the grown up and run the office every day.

    There’s no replacement on the horizon. Knowing my company it will be weeks before they even list the job and months before they fill it. It’s clear that they expect me to fill in the gaps, and I am trying to figure out to how to set some boundaries around that (I was already working considerably above my pay grade and all requests for a raise have been denied). I’m a student in a scientific field and my energies are spread pretty thin as it is. I’m planning to quit this job and move away before the next school year but in the meantime, feeling like a tightrope walker.

    1. valentine*

      If you didn’t ask for a temporary promotion/raise, maybe that is something to try. Decide on a reasonable amount of work and stick to it.

  53. ArtsNerd*

    I love the discussion about ADD/ADHD in the “airhead” letter but don’t want to overtake the comments section since that very well might not be relevant to her.

    Can we please talk about how it affects you in the workplace and the various systems and coping mechanisms you use? Medication is one! But I’m already on so many different prescriptions, I want to keep working on my behavior before I add anything to my mix.

    My biggest issue is that healthy habits take SO LONG to form and are thrown off by the tiniest cross-breeze, so setting up systems and then sticking with them aren’t anything I’ve been particularly successful with in the past.

    1. ArtsNerd*

      (And I know some of this info is in the comments there but I thought it might be good to have a dedicated space for it.)

    2. LadyofLasers*

      I’m so fascinated and excited to see so many women with ADHD reading and commenting on this site! I wonder what it is about this community that draws us here.

      There’s stuff I definitely struggle with (eg arriving at anything on time *eyeroll*). I think the second best thing to medication is working on mindfulness day to day. When I’m more aware of my state, I catch distractions earlier and I catch bad moods earlier, both of which destroy the best-laid systems and organization.

      I’ve finally come to peace with the fact I’m never going to find a permanent system that will always work. I will find one that works for a short time, get bored with it, and then I’ll need a newer shinier one to get me on top of things again. But one thing that I’ve kept going for a long time is using a Moleskine notebook as my working memory. I’ll jot my thought process down, and it helps me separate and make sense of all the thoughts happening at once. At the beginning of the day I’ll write down three important tasks that need to be done by the end of the day, and that helps give my day focus.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      My issue is I have no idea what I’m doing unless someone tells me what to do. My hack is that I can be the person telling me what to do. I use OneNote, and create a new page for each day. Each page is a cross between a TODO list and a stream of consciousness “What I’m doing right now/What I just did”.

      Whenever I come across a big task and don’t know where to start, I start listing all the components. Sometimes it becomes a nested list, where one component has multiple sub-components. Occasionally, the list in the order it needs to be worked. When it’s not, I don’t worry about it. I just make sure I can mark tasks off when they’re done. (OneNote lets you add checkboxes in front of your list items, so I use those. I also use the strikethrough text when I actively choose not to do a thing on the list.)

      This is more a home thing than a work thing, but I try to chain habits. For instance, I take my medications when I’m brushing my teeth before bed. I use my light box while I’m eating breakfast. Basically, figure out a habit you’ve already got, and add one thing to it instead of trying to create a new habit from scratch.

    4. Mother of Cats*

      My boyfriend takes medication for ADHD so he can function at work. It helps a lot, but he gets hyper-focused, which leads to him staying at the office late and taking MORE of his medication so he can continue to focus on his projects through the night.

      He’s run out of his medication in the past because of this, which in turn makes him super tired. I told him to talk to his doctor about upping his prescription but apparently she already has. It’s a bad cycle, but at least he is being recognized for his hard work by management. I just don’t think it’s sustainable. I wish he’d speak to his doctor about a long-term solution.

  54. Teapot librarian*

    Question about taking responsibility for things that didn’t go right. I’m the type of person who will always take responsibility for something not going well, but the people who report to me are not, and the people above me are not, and I’m stuck in the middle and going to feel guilty no matter what. Even if the problem is bureaucracy, I could have pushed harder, followed up sooner, found a way around the problem. I suspect that there is a gendered component to this as well. How do you deal with this? I’m feeling the crushing weight of IT’S ALL MY FAULT today and I would love some strategies to cope or minimize how much I internalize it being ALL MY FAULT. Thanks!

    1. Dragoning*

      Be very, very clear in your mind about whose responsibility is whose. If someone is nothing taking responsibility for their own failure, that does not mean you have to. If it’s someone higher up than you, I tend to think to myself “Well, that’s their priority–I did what I could. If they didn’t care enough about it to ensure it went well, they get to make that call. I guess.”

      I’ve never had a direct report, so I suspect it will be more difficult as…on some level…managing them to perform is your job, and if they aren’t, that’s also your job to get rid of them.

    2. Four lights*

      For me it helps to write down things that I need to internalize. For example I could write “I did the best I could. This was not my responsibility this is so and so’s responsibility. It is not my job to be responsible for everything in the company or my department.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      There’s an exercise I’ve found SO HELPFUL in the past:

      1. Write down your self-talk.
      2. What’s the evidence for?
      3. What’s the evidence AGAINST that statement?
      4. What’s a more accurate way to rephrase what’s happening?

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Here’s what it looks like for me:

        1. “If I don’t get this done perfectly, everything will fall apart.”

        2. For: no one else is going to Do The Thing. The Thing is a key part of getting word out about the Event.

        3. No one is paying that close of attention to the work I’m putting out there. They see Thing, they either have interest in Event or Not. “Perfect” doesn’t really come into play. Also, worst case is that sales are terrible and Event gets canceled. That’s not great but also…. that happens all the time in the industry. My employer isn’t going to fold. No one is going to be physically harmed. (Plus, how many TERRIBLE versions of Things do other people put out there? Great ones are the exception.)

        4. “It’s best to get The Thing done, but I’m also definitely the only person who cares this much about it.”

        1. valentine*

          Add gain/loss/alternate columns. If you blame yourself, what do you gain/lose and, if you merely lose or lose more, how else could you use that time?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Start small. It’s through the small things we learn and build.
      Someone is not watching where they are going and they walk into a door that is partially open. Practice telling yourself, “they need to watch where they are walking”. It’s fine to say out loud, “Are you okay?” It’s not your fault they did not look where they were walking.
      Some one lost their car keys. Practice telling yourself “this is why I have one set place to keep my keys”. It’s fine to help them look for the keys if you wish. It’s not your fault they were careless with their keys.
      The idea here is to practice allowing people to work through the emotional/thinking aspects of their problem on their own. Don’t wear their emotions for them. And don’t do their thinking for them. Learn/practice being comfortable with your own silence.
      This goes into a broader area of what are we actually in control over? The answer is not too much. We can’t control doors left part way open, we can’t control car keys on a rampage. Going larger here, we cannot control emails that do not get answered, people who miss deadlines, people who pick shoddy products or materials, people who have not yet figured out how to return a phone call. Don’t wear these concerns for others. It’s not your job.
      Where I went to with all this is “I have ownership of one square foot of this company. That is my kingdom. It’s up to me to make sure all is well in my kingdom. Once that is done, I am all set here.”

      If the people you supervise do not take responsibility for their errors that is something you can work to change. And it can be as simple as handing their work back to them for a redo. I don’t know your setting, of course, but now is a good time to start figuring out how you will get them to take ownership. Ultimately though, it’s the nature of management for us to get dinged for something our subordinates did. This is how I got to not feeling guilty about making them accountable.

  55. Jack Be Nimble*

    Update from last week!

    I sent an offer letter in error with the wrong salary amount (salary should have been $X, I used a number from an earlier draft of the job description which was $X+5,000). We had a meeting Monday to talk about the process and where it broke down, and my boss was EXCELLENT about it! We’re making a few tweaks to our process to ensure that salaries and job descriptions are fully finalized, and both my boss and another coworker took partial ownership.

    A good ending!

      1. A ninny mouse*

        Hi,
        Sorry I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. Dubai is my home town and I thought I would just share that the economy is TERRIBLE there right now (even though it is not being fully reported as the media is state-run). I’m not sure what sort of job you are looking at (one of the state schools? Posh private? regular private? tutoring?) but it is something to keep in mind.

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          I’m not really looking for anything right now but I’m just considering future options. I had no idea about the economy; I always assumed that the UAE was flush with cash because of the oil. I’d be looking for private language academies if anything, but thanks for the information.

  57. Fenchurch*

    After a year fraught with terrible management, so much stress I almost quit, and just general horrendousness, my company has decided to lay me off. However, they are making me wait at least 60 days before giving me my payout. The issue is I don’t think I can last that long in this position. It seems stupid to walk away from free money, but I don’t think my sanity and well being is worth it anymore.

    Anyone quit while in the process of being laid off before? I just don’t know what to do anymore.

    1. Graciosa*

      Can you afford to quit without another job lined up? If this is really at the point where staying will impact your health, I see no issue with giving regular notice (assuming you can) and leaving in two weeks.

      The down side will be that it’s easier to job search while employed – plus the money – but you should make the decision based on what is more important to you. My first question was just to make sure you were able to keep eating with a longer search and less money.

      Good luck.

      1. Dreamboat Annie*

        I agree w what Graciosa says, but with a real-life caution. I quit a job I was very stressed out at, and working long hours. I had plenty of $$$ to keep me going for months… and then the dot-com bust happened and it was a year until I found another job.
        But… you have to judge how staying will affect your mental/emotional balance or physical health, as to whether it is worth it.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Assuming you’re in the US, quitting before being laid off will also mean no unemployment. If you’ve got another position lined up or can cover with no payoff or unemployment, I’d say go for it, but keep in mind that it works in the company’s favor for you to do so. (By which I mean, if you do want the money, see if you can hold on out of spite, if nothing else)

      1. Isotopes*

        I’m going to second the idea that you lean into spite to get you through the transition. Think of it as their bad-job tax payment to you. You’re entitled to that, you just need to stick it out. But you don’t have to bend over backward or worry about their bottom line, or what impact your actions might have on the business overall. The project failed because of their poor management of it. You’re getting laid off. You have angry clients calling…well, their reactions are out of your hands. You can’t give them what they want.

        Also, if you need to disengage from things mentally a little bit…they’re already laying you off. They’re probably not going to fire you with no notice. You seem like you’re probably a person who has a lot of pride in their work and you always want to do the best you can. You already did, it didn’t work out, try to take it easy on yourself.

        Seriously, spite can get you through an awful lot. “This day sucks, I had to deal with all these angry clients, but I’m going to stay and make sure that I get my payout because they owe me that much.” “If I leave now, I’ve just gone through a year of hell, and there’s no consequence to the company, only to me. Well, I’m going to make sure they have the consequence of having to pay me that severance.”

        I really wish you all the best. I hope you can hold out.

    3. LayoffLimbo*

      I’m in a similar position. (See post above.)

      It just depends on how much you need the money. Can you ask to have extra time off to job search (go to interviews, networking, etc)? Use up ALL your sick days and PTO? Take long lunches with the people you like while you’re still in the same spot all the time? Wish you all the best!

      1. Fenchurch*

        Yeah, these are good ideas. I’m definitely in a similar boat to you in that my 60 day clock hasn’t started yet. I was told on Wednesday that my very poorly managed project didn’t make the cut for next year’s budget (and honestly was very relieved because I have loathed this position for the better part of a year). However we work with active subscribers to the service and have to provide a 60 day notice of cessation of service. There’s no timeline for when that news will be delivered. So I have demanding clientele who don’t know why I’m no longer engaged and I’m under strict orders not to tell.

        Wish I had a fun business to start! The severance package is very nice, I’m just so worn down after the worst year of my professional life.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My partner left prior to a final layoff. He found out through the grapevine, his pisspoor boss couldn’t man-up and start the dialog. So after suffering a few weeks he threw in the towel. Then got the “oh darn yeah we did drag our feet and would have given you severance.” Blah.

      We can financially hack it so I was all for burning the place down at that point.

      I tend to feel chains drop as soon as I have a done date. So I’m sorry this is so painful. I wish I could loan you my truckload of zero efs to give. Show up. Play cellphone games. Collect a check.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yeah I wouldn’t quit regardless of how bad the situation was (within reason). To me quitting before getting my severance would be the final nail in the coffin. It sounds like this job was absolutely brutal, don’t let them get the last laugh. Turn down your effort to the bare minimum (arrive at your exact start time, leave at whatever your end time is on the dot, take every second of your allotted breaks), get yourself a giant calendar so you can ‘x’ out the days until you’re done. I would also try and look at the bright side, you now have zero consequences for your work performance. I’m not saying turn into a jerk or anything, but you may be able to look at things that once caused you a ton of stress and through a different light you can now look at them as ridiculous and hilarious.

        Don’t let ToxicJob win!

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Try not to do that. Quitting means no unemployment compensation and may disqualify you from other benefits you may need.
      You may ask if the layoff period could be shortened if possible, but otherwise I’d try to stick it out 2 months.

  58. Triplestep*

    A few weeks ago Alison posted an entry about rejection e-mails, and we had a lively discussion about them, part of which included sub-debates over whether they are even necessary or good if you have not been chosen as a candidate after you apply. I am of the mind that I apply and then move on. If I hear nothing I assume I have not been selected as a candidate, so if I receive a rejection e-mail months later, it makes me feel a bit dejected for no reason. (i.e. it reminds me that I applied at all.)

    But not all companies send these e-mails, and occasionally I am inspired to log in to check on old applications; typically I see things like “Not selected” or “Position filled” under even “Under review”.

    Yesterday I saw this: “Company Not Interested.”

    Ouch!

    2. 653-CXK*

      I organize my applications in a spreadsheet as follows:

      1) If I don’t hear from a company in 30 days, they’re categorized as “Ghosted.” If I don’t hear from them in 90 days, I assume they’re not interested at all and categorize it as “Dead.”

      2) If I hear from a company and they give me an interview, they’re categorized as “In Play.” They also remain In Play if they send me requests for background checks and/or references.
      a) Once the interview is completed and I send them a thank you note, I wait two weeks. If I don’t hear from them at that time, I give them another two weeks before I consider them “Ghosted.” After 90 days, they too go into the “Dead” pile.
      b) If I get a rejection letter, it is immediately “Dead” and I put the reason down (Not Considered). Sometimes if I decline the job or withdraw from one, it is also marked as such.

      I got a rejection letter yesterday from a company I had applied to three months ago. (My thought, “Geez, couldn’t you have sent it a week after I put it down?”) Once I read the description, I knew it wouldn’t be the right fit.

  59. Anon for this*

    I have been working as a temp for the last two months in an ongoing contract. On Wednesday, my manager told me that prior to my starting, they had offered the perm position to someone else but they had taken until then to get around accepting. Apparently their hands were tied as they’d made the offer and so they had to let me go as it could go legal (maybe they should have put a time limit on the offer?!). I’m slightly in shock but I accept that this is the risk of temporary work. I’m taking this weekend to get my head straight then back out job seeking next week.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      Oof, that’s frustrating. My friend was in a similar situation, where she accepted a temp-to-perm offer, started right away because they needed the help immediately, liked it… and then was informed after 4 days that the person whose job she had been hired for was returning to the company, and therefore tomorrow would be my friend’s last day.

      Hopefully you got a little break from the mindset of job hunting, but after two months your application materials should still be handy and up-to-date!

  60. Not a traveler*

    My partner is looking for admin assistant work, after nearly 10 years at his current company. He has a lot of admin experience, and a strong background in a variety of tasks, but seems to be missing one thing that he is seeing as a requirement in literally EVERY job ad: booking executive travel.

    He has not had to do that in any of his jobs. It just hasn’t come up, in his roles. He hasn’t even done this personally – I can count on one hand how many times in the last decade we’ve been able to take a trip that involved airfare and/or hotel, and I did the booking for those.

    So, my questions are:

    – Is this a skill he can learn? If so, how? Would it be enough to start having him plan and book our personal travel (though realistically we cannot afford to travel often, or internationally, or on trips that would require complex booking logistics. We probably won’t be able to afford a trip of any sort until maybe next summer and he’s hoping to be in a new job by then)? Is there, like, online training somewhere on how to book executive travel, tips and tricks, etc.? Would that even help, because I feel like different executives are going to have different wants and needs in this area? (This is completely not a thing in my field so I know nothing about how business travel even works.)

    – Can any folks here who hire for roles like this speak to how much of a dealbreaker his lack of travel-booking experience is? Would you toss him on the “no” pile because he has not done this? Would it make a difference if he can demonstrate, with examples, that he’s detail oriented and therefore most likely would not book plane tickets for the wrong date or to the wrong destination? Are you willing to train someone on this if they’re otherwise a strong candidate?

    He’s refusing to apply for any job that lists this as a must-have, because he has literally zero experience at it. Which seems, lately, to be all of him. This never came up the last time he was job-hunting, which, to be fair, was a decade ago.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know anything about booking executive travel, but if I only applied for jobs that I met 100% of the required qualifications, I would never ever apply to anything. So, I think he should really apply even if he doesn’t meet 100% of the qualifications.

      1. Not a traveler*

        Yeah, I think so too – convincing him is a different matter. :) I’m trying to think what he would say when he’s asked “Tell me about your experience booking travel”? Something like “I haven’t done that in a professional setting before, but {insert examples about how he is generally detail oriented, or has dealt with logistics, or how he goes about researching work-related purchases so that things are on schedule and under budget}?”

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I think that sounds fine. Something like, “You know, I’ve never booked executive travel, but I have booked travel for myself and I have extensive experience dealing with _____________ and ____________ which I think would allow me to learn quickly. I once taught myself _____________.”

    2. Dragoning*

      I think your husband is being over-restrictive…and I also suspect booking travel for executives is a requirement not because it is hard, but because it is a thing assistants do, and it’s kind of busywork for the executives. It’s not necessarily a skill requirement, it’s a job duty.

      1. Not a traveler*

        Right, I can’t imagine that it’s that hard. But the ads all specifically say that experience in booking travel is required, and he does not have any experience doing so.

        I too think that he should apply anyway. But I guess I’m more wondering, how big of a dealbreaker is it to hiring managers if he hasn’t done it before.

        I’m trying to figure out if there’s a way that he can learn how to do it without us taking trips that we can’t afford so that he can at least get some experience in booking personal travel. He’s literally never even been on, like, Expedia or on an airline website. I always do all of that.

        1. Beth Anne*

          I think it’s weird that that is a specific task for a job in a job ad. I can’t imagine that is very hard to do. Most companies have written instructions on doing it.

          1. WellRed*

            Maybe the last assistant sent the execs to Naples, Italy instead of Naples, Fla. so they are being extra cautious ; )

    3. Tara S.*

      It’s not going to be a dealbreaker for most places, esp. if you have 10 years of admin-type work. I would tell him to be sure to talk about his organizing skills, events he helped plan, schedules he’s helped wrangle, any experience with purchasing. All of these things are the base skillset for booking travel, and yes, it’s something he can learn on the job. Also, like AnotherLibrarian said, no one’s going to fit 100% of the duties. From one admin to another, tell him not to let this be the thing to trip him up.

    4. irene adler*

      Might contact a travel agent and ask them about booking executive travel. Can they explain how -or even if-it is different from booking a vacation trip. If so, then what’s involved?

      I would at least apply to the ad if “booking executive travel” is the only skill your partner feels iffy about. It may be a matter of being willing to do this activity and not a special skill that partner lacks. But can’t know this unless there’s an opportunity to ask the employer.
      Might even reach out to the HR of the job ad and ask them what they are expecting to see in the job candidates re: booking exec travel. Experience doing so, willingness to do this, or some special skill involved.

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yes I think that that is really more of a job duty, and not a “skill” requirement. Booking executive travel is not a skill. Managing someone’s time is. Just like you need to make sure that you don’t book your boss for two meetings back to back that are across town from each other, you need to make sure that you handle the same situation with travel. You have to learn if they prefer to fly in the night before if they have a morning meeting versus setting up a meeting for 10am and they’re find with a red eye because they want to sleep in their own bed. They probably want direct flights only. They probably have certain hotels they prefer, rewards programs they participate in that they need to make sure they book under. I recently booked travel for myself for a work thing and was going to Ontario California. Do you know how many times I triple checked that I didn’t book Ontario CANADA? Yeah. A million.

      I think that just because he doesn’t have experience in this super particular thing he shouldn’t count himself out. If he applies and they ask about it, all he has to do is talk about how he understands executive travel can be very particular and how he would make sure to keep notes for each executive he works with on their preferences so that they are comfortable when they travel and their schedules are reasonable. Sure, they might go for a candidate that has more experience in that area, but if he excels at everything else then this will probably be a small thing that he can learn. Very rarely does someone have experience at every tiny thing for a job, but demonstrating that you understand the importance, having a willingness to learn, and things like that count for a lot.

      1. Not a traveler*

        Yeah…. I mean, granted, I have zero experience in this, other than a job a million years ago where I sat near someone who was in charge of booking travel and got reamed out on the regular for stuff she couldn’t control.

        But, it seems to me like even if someone does this all the time in their job, they’d need to learn their new boss’s quirks and preferences regarding travel anyway. There’s going to be a learning curve regardless.

    6. Chief of Staff*

      This is something he can learn and I would not toss a candidate in the “no” pile simply because he has not booked executive travel before.

      The fact is, most executives have preferences and if the person who left the job was good at it, they would ideally, leave a guide on the executive’s preferences.

      I also agree with the previous comment, if I only applied to jobs that I met 100% of the requirements for, I would have never applied to any jobs!

    7. Lora*

      So, most companies where I have worked, we had Concur software for managing the travel. The admin’s job for executive travel was doing the stuff that the rest of us had to do on our own; the trick was making sure that if the person the admin is supporting has Hilton Honors or Marriott or whatever, that they are getting their airline miles and points and whatnot from booking the correct airline, car rental or hotel. Also, making sure the executive gets the best business class / Premium Economy or whatever available – sometimes there’s a special code for overriding the low-cost preferences in Concur. It’s really no different than booking something through Expedia or whatever and ensuring that all your discount codes are in the pricing and making sure that if there’s a layover or something it’s a solid 90 minutes and they don’t have to run across three terminals to make a plane with only 5 minutes to spare, sort of thing.

      Then, if heaven forfend something bad happens, the admin may work with the Concur support people to change flights or whatever.

      It may or may not involve doing their expense reports as well. Concur has made this fairly easy as it can import receipts from a corporate card, but sometimes it can get a little complicated (hotels sometimes have weird room taxes to figure out and enter manually, group meals you have to list all the attendees) and if your exec lost a receipt it can be problematic to get the correct person to approve things.

      *sigh* Oh how I miss having an admin to do my expense reports…

    8. Harvey P. Carr*

      Forgive my naivete, but how does booking for executive travel differ from booking for personal travel?

      2. Not a traveler*

        I don’t know, honestly. The only thing I can think of is, business travel might be more last minute than personal travel, with less time to shop for deals and schedule way in advance?

        And I’m guessing that executive travel is more likely to involve first class, using frequent flyer miles, etc. Stuff that we personally cannot afford, and we don’t travel enough to ever earn miles.

      3. Kat in VA*

        A lot of it is remembering preferences – this exec likes aisle seats, this execs has a hatred of Marriotts, this execs is a 1K member with United and upgrades to first class all the time.

        Obviously the stakes are higher if you’ve got execs going to customer meetings, board meetings, etc. But it’s honestly not any more difficult than booking personal travel once you have all the particulars in place (preferences, membership account numbers, and so forth).

    9. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Hi. “Booking Executive Travel” is definitely something that can be “learned” and he can start by booking your personal trips. If he is applying for admin positions at large companies, odds are, they will have a travel department or company that they work with and they will help guide him with the bookings. Tell him not to let that duty keep him from applying for admin jobs.

      1. Isotopes*

        My company just instituted a new travel policy, so everything has to be done according to the new policy guide. I had to deal with it for the first time and while it was kind of annoying and I hope I never have to do it again, the procedures were all laid out. I think that knowing how far in advance things need to be scheduled is important, what to do when something comes up last-minute, that kind of thing.

        Maybe the reason it was highlighted in certain ads is that you need to be a little bit outgoing, I’d think, to be dealing with third party hospitality vendors, so maybe that what they’re trying to get at? Like, there was a time in my career where the idea of having to deal with booking travel would have been horrifying to me just because of all the moving parts and ALL THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE TO TALK TO. It would have been super stressful. I could do it now, no problem. Maybe they’re looking for people with the kinds of skills that end up getting you a slight discount, or a better flight, or squeezing you in when they normally wouldn’t. That kind of thing.

        I mean, I know people who deal with that kind of thing, it’s largely just a matter of company policy. Or department policy. Preferred vendors and all that.

        Don’t let him take himself out of the running for something like this. As other commenters have said, if he can organize and manage time and manage a calendar and keep the big picture AND the little detail stuff in mind (how far is this hotel from the various engagements required, what is traffic at the airport like if someone takes flight X rather than flight Y? And then preferences of different executives. I’m wishing him luck!

    10. It's Business Time*

      It really depends on the company you are working for as well. I have previously worked places where there was a full time travel coordinator, but I would let her know which flight I needed to book for the executives, their seat preferences and then the hotel that they required and any restrictions, however she did all the booking itself.
      If there are issues with the booking such as cancellations etc then you need to handle that and try to change flights and/or hotel reservations etc. Some companies have restrictions on who you can travel on, the amount of money per flight / hotel room that can be spent so you just have to know the guidelines.
      It is not that hard thought like most things it is specific to each person you are booking as well. For some execs, I needed to send them the flight hotel options and they let me know what they wanted, others were ok for me to just pick what worked best, each have their own ways.
      If the company does use concur, it at least has all the information pertinent to that executive so you don’t have to keep remembering to add it. I have not used Concur for international flights, just domestic flights and it was not a problem.
      Booking International is a bigger pain but it just takes more organizing to ensure you are in the correct time zones, that you know how long it will take to travel through airports, what if any visa’s are required etc.

      It is easily picked up so I wouldn’t let that line hold him back. Fingers crossed and best of luck in his job searching!

    11. Kat in VA*

      I’m an executive assistant for four C-suite execs, and I book a LOT of travel. We use Concur, and it’s about as idiot-proof as they come. Which isn’t to say that your partner is an idiot, just that with an hour or two looking at online tutorials, he should feel fairly confident. Most companies will have a travel agency as backup in case there’s something wonky that needs to be changed or whatever.

      If he has all of the other chops, booking travel/hotel/rental would be of minimal concern to me.

  61. EddieSherbert*

    Had an interesting experience at work this week talking about salaries that I just feel like sharing (no advice needed).

    We do annual anonymous department surveys that rate 0-100% on worker satisfaction in a bunch of areas. My office changed how raises are done in 2018 and my team (less than a dozen people) ended up coming back SUPER low on how happy we are with our salaries this year.

    So my Grand Boss sat us all down, had a really candid conversation about it, andddd then told all of us to email him by today with what we want our salaries to be, by when. Literally just send him an email saying “I think my salary should be $X by Month Year.” He specifically said don’t send all the reasons why we think we deserve the change because he already agrees and knows we’re worth more than we get. He can’t promise it will lead to anything, but says that we can’t have a real conversation about it if he doesn’t even know what we are looking for.

    Seems reasonable and I’m not in any way worried about repercussions for what I asked for or it causing a problem (will I get it? No idea. But I don’t see asking hurting me)… but it was definitely the weirdest email I’ve written. It’s amazing how stressed and awkward I felt sending it, despite being told this was something I needed to do by today, and despite the fact that I do trust my Grand Boss not to make it into an issue. But that awkwardness about salaries is engrained DEEP!

  62. Anon From Here*

    A job I was passed over twice for, at a major civil rights litigation outfit in the U.S., has been posted again. This makes the third time in five years that they’ve had to post this job. I have inside information that it was 100% ageism that kept me from the job.

    I’ve since moved a couple of time zones away from that office to pursue another opportunity. Lots of physical and mental distance from them … but I’m not completely immune from schadenfreude about this. Eff the old-boys’ club that still runs everything, including the supposedly liberal legal establishment.

  63. Jazzyisanon*

    So, this is hard. A sensitive health condition is about to force me to go on short term disability for treatment. One way or another, everyone seems to know what happens when people go out on leaves.
    Heck, one time a manager sent a department wide email about a surgery someone was having.
    I have bipolar disorder, and I don’t want anyone at work knowing that. I’m terrified someone will find out. What do I even say when people ask if I’m ok? What do I do if someone spills? I know we’re supposed to be beyond stigma but we’re not

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      They can’t share what they don’t know. Just say it is a private medical condition. If someone wants to know more, say “why do you ask?”

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have bipolar as well and had to get ADA accommodations and FMLA for it, so I hear you on this one. There is a stigma attached that is terrifying. I tell very few people about my condition. So I really feel you on this one.

      So at the company I worked for when I had to do this had an outside caseworker (or company contracted with another company who handled all that) who managed my accommodations and leave. That is obviously ideal, because it was internal but still separate. In that case, if you don’t tell your supervisor or anyone you work with, it’s quite simple for it to be kept private. If it’s a smaller company where your HR team has someone with a big mouth, well, sure, it could get out. But in my experience people’s medical conditions end up getting spread around because people tell someone (a mouthy boss, a coworker sworn to secrecy who doesn’t really keep it secret) and that’s how it gets out. So keep it to yourself. You have absolutely every right to say it’s personal and not say another word about it. That may feel weird, because people will openly share “oh, I’m having knee surgery, I’m doing great thank you” and you won’t be offering that. But seriously, no, you don’t have to do that. When people ask you how you’re doing, you say you’re doing better, you have great doctors, whatever, and keep it vague. The only way to make sure no one knows is to not tell anyone. Most people are not nosy enough to specifically ask you what your condition is if you don’t offer it. I worked on a team of about 40 and nearly all of them asked me how I was doing. My response was “much better, thank you!” and not a single one (even the ones who obviously wanted to know more) actually followed up with “uh… what exactly is wrong with you.”

      I actually had a talk with my supervisor, who had received instructions regarding what accommodations I needed, and didn’t tell him what my condition was. He was told I had to be able to work from home 2 days a week and what my short term FMLA time off looked like. (I could have x number of days off per 3 months or whatever.) It was weird, because I wouldn’t explain to him what my criteria was for when I would need to take a day off. I was not about to say “well sometimes I’m in a depressive episode that makes it nearly impossible for me to get out of bed” or “my level of anxiety gets so high coming into the office is not a possibility.” I kept to the facts. “When I need to take an FMLA day, how do you want me to notify you? Do you want me to call you as well as send an e-mail for tracking purposes? How do you want me to record my time? Do you have a preference about how my coworkers are notified?” Sure, as humans and as my boss I’m sure he would have liked to have more understanding of the situation, but guess what, he’s not entitled to your personal medical information.

      So tell no one. Keep it vague. You’re doing better. Do not tell your manager what you’re being treated for. Work with HR directly or whoever handles the leaves and be explicit that you do not want the details shared with anyone, per FEDERAL GUIDELINES, that information is private.

      Good luck. I hope you are doing well. Focus on your treatment and try not to worry about work. *Hugs*

  64. usernames are overrated*

    I have a two part question – what are some jobs for former lawyers other than policy and risk management jobs and- what should a lawyer who has had their own practice for 25 years put on a resume other than some wins in the area she practices in?

    Backstory – my parent needs to get a job working in an office 9-5 before not doing so completely destroys the family. But – none of know how to help with the vary basics of building a resume because we’ve all had “regular” white collar jobs where you go to work and have deliverables etc.so the resume sort of writes itself. Plus – researching options is hard because I don’t think we’re capturing all the possibilities for a career shift.

    1. Anon From Here*

      Threshold question: Does the parent need a paycheck? If not, maybe they could find a volunteer opportunity.

      What to put on the resume: Name of law firm, dates of operation, general area of practice. Then I’d put a half-dozen bullet points of wins, stated as briefly as possible. One, two sentences maximum.

      Suggested jobs: Uh, to be honest the question that comes to my mind here is why the parent is no longer lawyering. If they’ve been disbarred, then it’s harder to find lawyering-adjacent work. But if they’re just retired, then maybe look into doing taxes with H&R Block. The income tax prep courses should be ramping up soon, and we’re coming up on the happiest time of year for people who know their way around 1040s and Schedule K’s.

      1. usernames are overrated*

        yes parent needs a paycheck
        They could remain lawyering but don’t want to join a big (or small) firm. And private practice isn’t working anymore (realistically it’s been a slow spiral since the recession) just because they do a relatively niche type of law in an geogrpahical area where that niche is not really needed anymore.
        *I’ve done fairly thorough research and can’t find complaints or censure or anything else that would indicate there has been trouble that would lead to being disbarred – just that work in the niche has dried up

        2. Anon From Here*

          They could remain lawyering but don’t want to join a big (or small) firm. And private practice isn’t working anymore

          Well, frankly, you can’t always get what you want. If they want to keep their own firm going, then it looks like they need to get their butt into some CLE or other training and start working in a different practice area. I get it, I really, really do. I’m a solo practitioner and I hate the hustle. But I can’t bang my head against the wall and keep my practice to an area that’s in such low demand that I can’t pay my bills.

          Another thing that comes to mind is, if they haven’t done it already, to radically reduce the overhead cost of running their own firm by renting a desk at the location of another law firm. I’ve done this and paid literally for only the use of a desk. I used the office printer, internet, storage, utilities, etc., at no added cost.

          1. usernames are overrated*

            Your first paragraph hits the crux of the problem now – and it’s so tough so major props for sticking to it!
            I love the idea of renting a desk somewhere – that seems like a better option than working trapped at home all day.

            1. Anon From Here*

              Renting time/space in “co-working” buildings is a hot topic. The price can be right, and I know more than one colleague who does it. But I worry about the security of my documents, devices, hard drives, etc., and the privacy of conversations with clients. So for me there’s too high a risk of breaches of confidentiality in a co-working space. Also your state supreme court may have a rule about it, and/or your state bar association may have an ethics opinion about it. But! It can be good for getting new clients in a variety of business circles because of the variety of entrepreneurs and consultants who use co-working offices.

      2. usernames are overrated*

        and thank you! The resume info is helpful – I jumped straight to answering the question portion and skipped the thanks!

    2. ag47*

      My non-practicing lawyer friends have gone into legal publishing/editing, working for companies that provide products/services to lawyers (Westlaw, Lexis, CLE providers), and legal journalism. Other options to consider if they’re available in your area.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I have lawyer friends who became a judge, a public defender, etc.
        In my state low level judges do not need to have a law degree, hence do not need a license to practice law. It does not pay great, though and it’s an elected position. Maybe if there is a mid-term judge stepping down parent could apply?

    3. BRR*

      I’m not sure what type of law they practice but I know quite a few who have gone into planned giving (fundraising that involves estate plans).

  65. some dude*

    I have a question – I used to work for a company of about 40 people for about six years, until I was fired unexpectedly two years ago. No one had every questioned my work, I had gotten nothing but glowing performance reviews, and then one day I’m told I don’t have what it takes and I’m burnt out and they don’t want me to work there anymore. I was maybe the seventh person who had left this way, but most of the others had been people with serious performance issues, at least one of whom I know was on a PIP etc. I was the first who didn’t have any apparent performance issues. In the past 18 months, at least 10 other of my former colleagues had the same thing happen to them, and all but maybe one or two were doing fine jobs. They got good performance reviews, they did their work, and then one day they get a 4pm meeting and are told they would be gone in a month.

    My question is – is this a thing? Is this an accepted way to deal with employees who have maybe outworn their welcome and some new blood could be a good thing? To clarify, we were all in administrative positions where institutional knowledge would theoretically be a good thing, although the organization had gone through constant change. It’s not like we were sales people, or product designers, or whatever where a new person might have a very different approach or skill set. It seemed like they just felt like we had been around too long (all of us had been there 5+ years) and were just sick of us. This is a field where there typically isn’t a ton of turnover.

    I’m just curious if anyone has encountered this before. I totally get putting an employee on a pip and firing them for not meeting performance standards, but to fire an accountant out of the blue who has been doing a good job for five years, only to replace her with another person to do the same job, seems like not a terrific way to run a business. Everyone was really freaked out that their number was going to be called next. It’s one thing if you know your employer has exacting standards and you have to work hard to meet them, it’s another thing to feel like you could be fired on a whim because the COO/HR director doesn’t like conflict or having to deal with people.

    1. Colette*

      No, that’s not normal, and it’s a poor way to run a business. Not only do you lose people who are doing good work, but you make everyone else think they should be looking elsewhere as well.

    2. CatCat*

      This is bananas. It’s a bad way to do business because it tanks morale, makes your current good employees start looking elsewhere, gives you a Reputation, and probably increases employer payroll taxes for UI benefits. Literally no idea why an company would operate like that.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      If it’s a thing, it’s a crappy thing. You weren’t about to vest stock options or anything, right? How are the Glassdoor reviews? Because they deserve to have a bad reputation with all the arbitrary firings.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Are people being fired for cause or do you mean laid off? Big difference.

      Fired for performance issues is generally rare.
      Laid off happens all the time when companies don’t meet their performance metrics each quarter and need to reduce costs via workforce reductions. Sometimes a company will try to avoid paying unemployment by “blaming” employees who have done nothing wrong.

  66. beacon*

    Can any introverts, moderately socially anxious persons, people who suffered from severe imposter syndrome talk about their career journey? I’ve just turned 24, just passed the half-year mark at my first job out of university and I’m struggling. I’m afraid that I’m always going to doubt my abilities and struggle to make meaningful connections with my coworkers. The thought of scrambling to get references later down the line when I start up another job search also leaves my stomach in knots… :/

    1. Anon Anon*

      Happy to share more detail if it’s helpful to you, but the main thing I’ll say is: it gets better. Really.

      I’m 39. In the past few weeks I’ve had three experiences that threw a light on how differently I think about and handle moderately challenging work situations than I did in the past.

      Situation 1: I recently went through an interview process. At this stage of my career, interviewing is only minorly stressful — I can genuinely treat it like the mutual conversation about fit that it is. I no longer feel like I have to perform perfectly so that they’ll choose me. That’s a huge change from my early career. (I also didn’t get the job and I was able to pivot back and reinvest in my current job; that’s also very different from how devastated and frustrated I in similar circumstances earlier in my career).

      Situation 2: I have a colleague who is belligerent, rude, and rides roughshod over his direct reports. He asked me to participate in an interview panel for a new hire he’s making. I got advice from my boss, and flagged my concerns with HR. I did decide to participate in the panel, but I was direct with my rude colleague about my concerns and told him that I wouldn’t gloss over the management challenges that the interviewees could expect. (We’ll see if he takes me off the panel!) Previously, I would have agonized over how to have a difficult conversation like that. Now, I’m comfortable enough in my own experience to offer my perspective without worrying about his reaction.

      Situation 3: The leadership of my current team had a difficult meeting a couple of weeks ago. I was visibly and verbally frustrated (like: rolling my eyes, engaging in back-and-forth disagreement with a colleague that we should have set aside and revisited one-on-one [if at all], being much more direct with criticism of organizational decisions than is acceptable in my org’s culture). Years ago I had a similar experience and spent a weekend worrying that I was going to get fired; this time I went straight to my boss’ boss (who had been running the meeting) to apologize, and once I’d done that I was able to just drop it and move on with my day.

    2. Graciosa*

      I’m very introverted (at the limit for introverts on every MBTI I’ve ever taken), and have been successful in a career that requires a lot of engagement with other people. I remember feeling like you do when I started out, and it has been much more possible than I would have believed to succeed in business.

      A few things that helped me:
      Learning to pace myself and manage my schedule (I need alone time to recover after lots of interaction)
      Being less concerned about what other people think (easy to say and hard to do at first, but it does get easier over time – meaning years, not days – but it can happen eventually)
      Learning a job – really mastering it – which required a lot of nice introverted study and thought time but had the side effect of making me an expert (easier way to engage with others if I was answering questions or discussing something I knew better than anyone else)
      Realizing that you can develop very good work relationships not by hanging out a lot at the water cooler or local pub after work, but just by doing a very good job (after you work with the same people for a while, they will know you do good work and be willing to serve as references)
      Deciding to treat socializing at work as a skill I had to learn instead of a change to my personality; smiling and greeting everyone in the office consistently became automatic (and greeting means “Hello” as I walked past without any implication that I knew the person at all), then I graduated to walking around to practice very brief small talk with a few people each day (it was on my calendar so I managed it like a task, but it gave me a reputation as a friendly person in a way that worked for me – I could hide in my office the rest of the time after a fifteen minute circuit in which I spoke to a few people and smiled at the rest)
      Realizing no one would notice if I skipped very large meal events without assigned seating; as long as I circulated during the pre-dinner reception, everyone would assume I just ended up at a different table (I had to buy my own dinner and not expense it, but it was totally worth it for a free evening in my hotel room with no conversation required)
      Remembering that listening is valuable in and of itself – showing up and appearing to pay attention (in both social and professional settings) is often more than enough and more than most people are doing (and when you practice this, you can do it while your mind is really on something else)

      You don’t need to make “meaningful” connections with your co-workers, so I wouldn’t even worry about it. It’s not a requirement – although it may happen organically a bit when you’re working difficult projects or traveling together.

      Finally, almost everyone doubts their abilities at first (search on “imposter syndrome”). This is totally normal. In my first managerial role, I was terrified for months that someone would find out I had no idea what I was doing and everyone would lose all respect for me – and I was already an experienced professional with an excellent reputation. I got through it.

      You will learn your own methods for coping that work even better for you, but you can absolutely get through this.

      Best wishes –

    3. Wait, how did I get here?!*

      I feel this so hard. For years I struggled with feeling shy, feeling like not enough, and pretty anxious at putting myself out there, and no amount of success could convince me otherwise. I finally got myself to therapy and that did a lot to lower the low-level feeling of anxiety all the time. But the big breakthrough I had is when I finally really asked myself what I was so afraid of; what made the world seem so dangerous and threatening?

      For me, it was because I felt I was fundamentally unlovable if I couldn’t do everything perfectly. And so trying and failing was inviting rejection and disgust, which I couldn’t bear. But a part of me knew that was ridiculous, I’m incredibly fond of all sorts of wonderfully imperfect people. And once I started applying that compassion to myself and started challenging the inner critic, I felt less anxious about measuring up to an imaginary standard.

      A phrase I’ve found incredibly comforting is “Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly”. You don’t have to be perfect or the best before you have something to offer. You have something valuable to offer right now. It’s okay that you don’t feel confident yet. Adulthood is not an inoculation against doubt, it’s being brave enough to try despite it.

      Get up every day, keep trying, and be kind to yourself.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      I married an introverted, moderately socially anxious, severe imposter syndrome sufferer. He is about to turn 27.

      His story: out of college, he was not licensed to teach because he was so burnt out after dealing with his difficult student teaching experience, which lead him to working in a music store. Working in retail motivated him to get his certification and about a year and change later he had the opportunity to jump to teaching part time. No benefits, private schools, pitiful pay, but it was a foot in the door. He took it, while finishing out the busy season at the retail store, and stayed in that job two years. It became full time in the second year, but then he was driving between three counties to teach in eight schools a week. He applied for dozens of public school jobs and was ghosted on all but one, which turned out to be that Hail Mary that is his current position. Despite him being the chosen candidate out of literally 150, two years later, he struggles with imposter syndrome daily. Back to school time is always a No Plans on Weekends time because he needs the time to decompress.

      However, despite his imposter syndrome, he still has strong contacts from the retail store. And the private schools. And he’s becoming more connected to his current school. He still doubts his abilities everyday. This year in particular has been a struggle for him. But from all these connections he is getting better feedback and hearing more about how much the kids love him and how much fun he’s made his subject. He told his principal in his eval that he feels this year has been his hardest year teaching and she responded that she thought his teaching was that of a much more advanced teacher.

      Some advice I can give you is that these are more than normal feelings. Keep a document or folder and when someone compliments you, or thanks you for something that you’ve done, print it out/write it down, and save it. When you feel low, page through it. Your first thought may be that they are lying to you-but dig deeper and think about that they are saying this because they believe it. There is a difference between hearing something and actually listening to it, and try to listen to the positive you get.

    5. NewHere*

      It’s contrary to everything that felt right to me as an introvert, but one of the best things I did to connect outside my isolated work team was volunteer for the board of our employee association. They were always encouraging people to get involved and I was drafted in as soon as I expressed an interest- now my name is one of the ones that gets floated out as a contact when we make announcements, I attend the monthly board meetings with other members from all parts of the organization that I wouldn’t normally interact with, and I’m one of the people in the room when we have our occasional meetings with the leadership to discuss employee issues.

      And the thing is, all that interaction becomes so much easier for me because it’s not just little old me there all on my lonesome trying to talk to people I don’t know, I’m there in my armor of a Board Member who has A Job to be doing. I never even wanted to go to the parties and events we have as a regular employee because I dreaded the idea of being the awkward one everybody is ignoring but now I’m helping get the food set up, talking about what the association is doing, working the merchandise sales table…

      I’m there and I’m visible and I have a reason to talk to a lot of people, including ones that aren’t already my work friends or immediate coworkers, but I also have a built-in excuse to cut a conversation short and run away because oh look, Wakeen is over by the merch table and I need to go show him a t-shirt, it was so nice to catch up with you!

      1. Washi*

        I have a similar story in the sense that my first job was one that seems like it wouldn’t have been a good fit for me, but actually really helped me grow. I am really anxious about displeasing others and being told no and saying no myself, and when worked as a volunteer coordinator/recruiter, those things happened constantly. Most of the people I met were lovely, but there were also the entitled volunteers who yelled at me over ridiculous things, the volunteers with a lot of racial biases that couldn’t go unchallenged, the volunteers who were just terrible at volunteering and who I had to basically fire.

        I think I would have quit if I hadn’t had a really supportive manager, and it was so hard. But over time, having to deal with these difficult situations over and over while my manager affirmed that my instincts were on target gave me so much more confidence. Plus, I really internalized the idea that some people are nuts and won’t like me no matter what I do, so why not just trust myself?

        I don’t have that kind of job anymore, but that confidence in my own judgement has mainly carried over since, and that’s been kind of a buffer to my work anxiety. (Unfortunately it has not carried over to the kind of anxiety about my personal life as much as I want, but that’s another story.)

    6. Argh!*

      This is called “borrowing trouble.” Live for the day. Tomorrow is not promised to you. There are many people alive today who will be dead tomorrow. You don’t have to manage 2028 in 2018. Things won’t be at all what you imagine in 2028.

      Your references won’t be your coworkers. They will be former supervisors. As long as you’re not a jerk, your coworkers cannot derail your career. If they like you, fine. If they don’t like you, don’t worry about it. Work isn’t school – it shouldn’t be the source of your social life the way that school is.

      Get out there and start adulting! Introverts don’t like joining organizations, but you should be able to find some RL friends that way. Start a club if you can’t find one. Post to craigslist that you’re starting a Settlers of Catan club and see what happens. You might be surprised.

    7. Kat in VA*

      I am socially anxious, moderately introverted, struggle with imposter syndrome (“People tell me I’m good because they feel sorry for me”), older than usual folks in my profession (I’m almost 50)…and I have a speech impediment that makes me sound like I’m a strangling goose to boot!

      So with that plethora of handicap…

      I’m an executive assistant – a job that requires me to interface with all kinds of personalities and professional levels from CEOs and board members to engineers and interns, be “on” at a moment’s notice, swiftly and competently handle (not actual) fires and emergencies, not make major mistakes (because the stakes can be high), manage my execs’ time, money, energy, and even emotions…and present a general overall calm, efficient, friendly, warm demeanor while I’m doing it.

      How I got here, I’ll never know, but I’m paid well, my reviews are glowing, and I’m apparently well liked by all. I can’t say I don’t expect the other shoe to drop or that I’ll ultimately be exposed for the shoddy imitation of an EA that I am, but somehow I’m making it work.

      The only thing I can say is FAKE IT TIL YOU MAKE IT. It’s worked for me so far!

    8. Fireplace*

      As a 27 y/o introvert that has experienced all this, here’s a few tips that may help you as they helped me. Ask your manager (if they’re sane) what your predecessor was accomplishing at the 6 month mark, then be curious about how you compare, what you can do better, and what projects you want to tackle when you are excelling at your primary tasks. Make time to get up from your desk 3-4x a day, stretch your legs, and talk with someone for 5 minutes about mutual interests or plans for Christmas/the holidays, an upcoming potluck, etc. Hardworking introverts who dont create drama will soon find friends in the other hardworking, drama-free people this way and then those friends help you network because they know you’re the real deal, hardworking and friendly! Finally, give yourself the same grace and compassion you would to a friend if you do something wrong, say the wrong thing, etc. I’m in my 3rd office job, 3 years out of uni.

  67. Justin*

    Sorry this is long, but I thought it might be interesting to some.

    I used to be surprised by the more anti-social vibe on AAM. I am somewhere between introvert and extrovert (I think most people have both in them, right?), but I like parties and such, and always volunteer to help set up our work holiday parties and whatever, and they go well. (I like to host parties at home, too.)

    BUT. As much as I still like out-of-work socializing or sharing lunches, when at my desk, I kinda want to be left alone. And I didn’t always feel this way. At my last job, I think because I was still dealing with undiagnosed MH issues, I often felt left out when people chattered all day long, and I wanted to fit in and be included and be the life of the party. In retrospect, I didn’t feel very secure in my work or my professional accomplishments, and that lack of self-actualization (or whatever) was the real issue.

    Now that I’m very confident in my work, career, studies, etc, I really do just sit at my desk all day (whether I have a lot of work to do or not), aside from meetings and teaching (or going out to go for a walk). I share a lunch with a coworker every so often.

    I don’t actually think I changed, though. I think I stopped worrying and settled into what is ultimately my natural rhythm.

    I still have minor worries when the people nearby are chattering all day that I’ll be seen as unfriendly because I truly do not care about superheroes (yes, I know Daredevil was canceled, but I don’t really wanna talk about it), or Disney (I dunno, a lot of them are into it). And they don’t really ask to get coffee with me that often. I’m sure I can be less than chipper.

    But I figure, so long as I’m polite and remain effective in my work, my supervisors and colleagues will respect me (got a raise, got a very good performance review), I don’t have to entertain anyone. And that’s a revelation for me.

    Has anyone else noticed a change in the way/amount they interact/socialize at work based on their work performance (and/or other emotional changes)?

    (The short version of this, of course, is that treatment is good.)

    1. blood orange*

      I find that when my work performance is poor, my mood is poor and I socialize less. They both really impact the other, but in general, I’m pretty much only willing to socialize if my mood is at least okay. One thing I’ve noticed is that you really don’t have to be chatty. If you go out of your way to be nice and polite whenever you bump into your coworkers, everyone will generally like you even if you just sit at your cubicle all day.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah. I also notice that there are a couple people here whose performance I know for sure has been remarked upon as being poor, and for them the outward friendliness might actually be compensation like it once was for me at previous jobs. (Not that that’s the case for everyone who is friendly.)

    2. Miss Wels*

      I’ve changed, but feel like in the exact opposite way than you did. When I first started at my current job, I very much preferred to be left alone and avoided socializing with coworkers outside of the office. I even would get annoyed when people walked over to my cubicle to talk to me instead of “just” sending me an email. But over time as I became more comfortable in my space I relaxed a lot and spend most of my breaks with other people on my team and share appropriate amounts of information about my personal life. For me, I’m definitely naturally more introverted but I also have pretty extreme social anxiety that is much worse around strangers than around people I am familiar with.

      1. Justin*

        That’s interesting, yeah.

        Perhaps the main point is that we all act more naturally when we’re comfortable. I just didn’t realize that 1. I was uncomfortable and 2. that this was more natural, because I’d never really been particularly comfortable before.

  68. Unemployed and grumpy anon*

    I’ve been unemployed for coming up on six months now and am starting to get really frustrated. I just got an in-person interview request for a job in my field, and accepted… then I found out it was a group interview. This is for a specialized job requiring a minimum of a four-year degree and several years of work experience. I haven’t had a group interview since I was applying for retail jobs in high school. It would also require long-distance travel and an overnight hotel stay, which doesn’t make financial sense for me considering the group interview is supposed to take only an hour. Part of me wants to back out of the interview, but the other part of me that’s completely desperate is telling me to just go and see what happens. Thoughts? (For what it’s worth, none of my other interviews in the field have been group interviews, and I don’t think it’s common in this field.)

    1. WellRed*

      I’d be concerned that, because it’s a group interview, they are misleading you on what the actual job entails. I can think of no professional job that a group interview makes sense. Add in that it sounds like you have to pay for your own travel and I say run!

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I say run. A group interview that you have to travel (and pay) for? Hard no. Especially if you haven’t had a phone interview first to see if you’d even be interested in the job.

      1. Unemployed and grumpy anon*

        No real phone interview. The hiring manager called, explained the job, and asked a couple of very basic questions (like he was trying to see whether I was qualified or not, even though all of that info was included in my application) and then invited me to the in-person interview. I would be interested in the job, if it’s what he says it is, but I’m feeling put off by this whole process. And yes, I would have to pay all travel/lodging expenses.

          1. Unemployed and grumpy anon*

            Only a few, and none from the department I’d be a part of. No one in the interview questions section mentioned a group interview. I think I may pass on this whole thing. Any thoughts on how to gracefully bow out of a previously accepted interview without burning bridges?

            2. Not So NewReader*

              “I have decided to go in a different direction. Thanks so much for taking an interest in my application.”

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Maybe people have some positive stories where group interviews worked out well for them, but this company is expecting you to travel a long distance on your own dime and they’re not even giving you an individual shot. And it’s not typical of your field, which doesn’t say great things about this company’s knowledge of business norms.

      I wouldn’t do it.

  69. Side gig search*

    Does anyone have any suggestions on where to find examples of good resumes for part time/ side gig positions when the applicant has a full time position?

    I know how to create a resume for a career full time position, but I am looking for a long term side gig and I have found several interesting openings accepting online resumes, but no cover letter. Every side gig resume I have attempted reads as way overqualified, or else as if I am trying to hide something.

    I think if I could see good examples of people’s side gig resumes. I could figure it out.

    Thank you.

    1. WellRed*

      You might be overthinking it. Most part time jobs understand that people have roles and qualifications in the rest of their life that are way above what they are seeking for their cashier/barista/security job position.

      If I were to apply for a retail position, I’d have my degree and professional experience listed, but I might put my retail jobs under “retail experience” and stick it at the top, possibly fleshing it out more, and shortening up my editorial duties at my day job.

  70. General Organa*

    Hi! Two questions:

    1. What’s your favorite Microsoft Outlook trick?

    2. What’s your favorite news aggregation method? I’m a nonprofit lawyer responsible for a particular issue area, and I’d like to set up alerts for when (this isn’t the actual scenario, but close) the Times or the ACLU or whoever posts an article about gerrymandering, but not sure what the best way to do that is.

    1. Anon From Here*

      1. Delay sending from the Outbox! I think this is implemented differently with different versions, so best to google how to set it up. Mine’s on like a 2-minue delay and it has saved my ham more frequently than I care to admit.

      2. I have a couple of google news alerts set up but I’m happy to hear better suggestions from other commenters, especially alerts that come in as news breaks rather than the daily aggregates I get for my set-up.

      1. CTT*

        omg I did not know about delay sending, I am setting that up right now (if only I could time travel back to 24 hours ago when I sent a totally blank “outstanding items” email.)

        1. Asenath*

          Delay send is also great when you’re scheduling things far in advance – you set up the reminders or welcome emails or whatever when you set up the event, and just tell the computer when you want them to go out.

          Of course, you have to remember to amend or delete them if the event is changed or cancelled! But that’s much easier than remembering to write and send all those emails a week in advance for a number of different thinks.

          Merge to email starting with Word is great, too. Maybe not necessary if you have only three or four to send out, but sometimes it’s up to 70 or more.

    2. Susan K*

      Two great Outlook tricks:

      Quick steps. I actually learned about this here, and it is very useful if there are e-mails you send repeatedly. You can set up an e-mail with the recipients, subject, and/or content already filled in, and repeat it any time you want with one click. I also have one set up to forward a selected e-mail to my personal e-mail address. You can also use it to move an e-mail to a specific folder with one click (I do this with certain things that I want to see in my inbox when they arrive but move them to a different folder after I read them — the quick step is faster than dragging the e-mail to the folder).

      Delay delivery. I use this all the time to send an e-mail at a specific date and time. I often use this if I’m sending something important late in the day. I use delay delivery to send first thing the next morning instead. Or if I want to send some information about something that’s happening, say, next Thursday, and if I send it today, people will forget by the time it’s relevant, so I delay delivery until next Wednesday so they get it the day before the event.

      1. Dealtwiththis*

        One thing about delay delivery that I learned the hard way, it only works if you are logged in to outlook. I set emails up to go out while I was out on vacation and found out that they didn’t send until the day I got back to work and logged in to outlook :(

    3. LCL*

      Favorite trick? So many, I can’t pick just 1. Start with customizing the heck out of the display, with big fonts and color tweaks and hiding or deleting all not used columns. Another trick is using what used to be called the sort feature in the way that makes the most sense for your workflow. I leave the reading pane off 99% of the time, as all of my customers are internal and I know what they want already. All of this magic is accessible with the View tab..

      I set up a google alert for news related to my job. Their website makes it easy to set up.

    4. Coffee Owlccountant*

      Definitely seconding Quick Steps, they are awesome!

      I also want to shout out the Assign Policy button. I get a ton of automated emails, some from our system and some from when coworkers do particular tasks that spawn reports or confirmations, and everything has rules set up to go to various folders. For the majority of the stuff, I want to keep it temporarily because I MIGHT need it, but if I do, I’m only going to need it until, say, the next closing happens or something like that. Assign Policy will set up retention programs for individual folders as compared to your inbox or deleted items as a whole – so for the automated folders, I can tell Outlook to automatically delete everything older than 3 months and keep my automatic folders uncluttered and reduce inbox size.

    5. BRR*

      Tricks that haven’t been mentioned yet: Rules and ignore. Like most, I get too many emails. It can be tricky to find the right criteria, but I was able to set some up so that certain emails go automatically to my trash. The person who replies “Welcome” to new staff announcements? Set one up saying any email from them to all staff go to trash. The daily news email that I will never need and the follow up reply alls? Set up an alert for that subject line to go to trash.

      Ignore is great for the awful reply all avalanches. It sends every subsequent reply to an email chain to the trash.

      I haven’t used it but I’ve heard people discuss about talkwalker alerts.

    7. Heartlover1717*

      MS Outlook: I have several templates I use weekly, monthly, quarterly, etc. They are easy to create/update and you won’t need to think of the correct language for routine notices/responses.

      News: Besides Google alerts, I keep a page in igHome where you can input gadgets with RSS feeds.

  71. Miss Wels*

    I just found out that my sister, who lives out of state, is pregnant and due in 7 months. I want to be there for the birth of her baby, and I would like to request vacation time as far in advance as possible, but since babies come early or late so often I don’t really know where to begin, and I also need to purchase plane tickets. Has anyone been in this situation before? Management here pretty much always approves vacation time if you have the PTO stored up so I am not too worried about that, but because we’re understaffed and my role supports multiple programs, I’d like for our team to be as prepared as possible for when I’m out of the office.

    1. Tara S.*

      Congrats! Be upfront with your team about why you’ll be leaving and why it’s not a firm date, but give them an expected range. Plan as if the baby is going to come on it’s due date, buy plane tickets that are easy to change or refund. Best of luck!

    2. Snubble*

      I’d go with the straightforward facts! I don’t think you need a complex strategy here, since your employers are good about granting leave when it’s asked for. Just have a chat with your management and let them know that your sister is pregnant, you’d like to be there when she delivers, and that’s expected to be in around ~month, so you wanted to give them warning, but you won’t know the timing for sure until it happens. People can prepare a lot around “we expect Miss Wels to be out for a couple weeks in late June”.

    3. BRR*

      I would explain the situation and ask to take time off around a certain time but haven’t determined the exact dates and ask if you can do it on short notice.

    4. Friday*

      You could always plan for say 3-4 weeks after the baby’s due date, which will give your sister time to settle into a new home routine, heal a bit from the birth, etc. Unless you’ll be her primary support person during that time, in which case people should understand that babies come whenever they come!

      1. Miss Wels*

        She is young, single, isn’t 100% sure who the dad is, and really doesn’t have anyone besides our immediate family to support her, so it’s super important that I’m there to help her with what I can. I didn’t bring that up in my original post because I wasn’t sure if it was relevant, but yes, she will need me.

        1. Friday*

          It’s super relevant! People usually assume woman + mate are doing the baby thing together but your sis doesn’t have that structure so you and other family are (awesomely) filling that role. Make sure your boss knows, and congratulations to you all on the upcoming baby.

      2. Traveling Teacher*

        This exactly. Unless you’re going to be running the house for her, waiting until a few weeks after the due date is ideal!

      3. valentine*

        Can you use FMLA for this? Are you able to work remotely? Is her moving closer to you, even temporarily, an option (that you would want)?

  72. in the file room*

    Tips on dealing with noise-related distractions?

    Background: I work in a small department with three coworkers near me. I find noise to be very distracting, and they each have their own way of contributing….

    Arya gets here before me. When I come in, she is already muttering in irritation at her emails, sighing loudly, etc. She is the kind of person who will always find something to complain about, and does so aloud to nobody in particular often.

    Sansa takes frequent personal phone calls in the office. She describes herself as “boisterous” and often talks and laughs loudly on the calls.

    Lysa sits next to me. She’s very nice, but throughout the day she thinks of “funny stories” to tell me or random observations to share. They are interesting more often than not, but too frequent and at intervals that are just long enough for me to settle back in to work before being interrupted again.

    I have been using headphone most of the day to listen to music and podcasts, but I can’t completely tune out because all four of us often need to talk to each other about our work for quick questions, and I need to listen for our doorbell sometimes. The culture is such that the interruptions are part of the day and unlikely to change. Anybody have advice on this problem?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I like listening to music/podcasts with just one earbud in. It’s just enough that I can still enjoy what I’m listening to, drown out side noise/conversations, and let me pretend that I don’t hear someone trying to pull me into a non-work conversation, but also leaves me aware enough of the world around me to hear if someone actually needs me.

    2. WellRed*

      I would say something about the phone calls, preferably in the moment. “Would you mind taking that call elsewhere? I need to concentrate.” Repeat as needed. People that describe themselves as loud or boisterous etc think that makes it OK to be rude. It’s not.

    3. Carbovore*

      When my office converted to a cube farm, one coworker set up a curtain on the entrance of her cubicle. Having never been in an open office before, I at first kind of rolled my eyes about it and thought she was being a bit high maintenance but a year and a million distractions later, it’s now something I wish I had thought about and initiated from the get-go…! (I get a little anxious wondering how people would react if I suddenly put up a curtain this late in the game and that it would draw attention… I’m probably too much in my head about that though and no one would care.)

      There’s something about a “physical door” that keeps people physically at bay. As for the noises, get some headphones or some white noise that helps you filter it out. (I have a desk fan that I often turn on to drown people out and it works to great effect… in fact, many days when I turn it off for the day, it’s disturbing to hear how much of a difference it was making.)

  73. HelloAnxiety*

    I struggle with diagnosed anxiety that’s worsened during busy seasons at work. While I’m working on it with professional help, I still consider myself a work in progress and there are still points where it affects my work (lower energy, I may take 5-10 minutes to compose myself in the restroom a few times a week, spend more time on tasks that tend to be triggers, be a scatter-brain if there are too many things to do, on the rare occasion be short-tempered). I’m hesitant to be honest with my manager about it because, while he has demonstrated that he’s very understanding, I don’t want it to affect his opinion of my professionalism. Has anyone else been in this situation and can offer helpful tips?

    1. Isotopes*

      Since it doesn’t sound like it’s really having much of an impact on your professionalism, can I just say: give yourself a break! Taking a few breathers here and there, taking extra time on certain tasks, and being scatter-brained (as long as you’re managing this by setting reminders or keeping notes) are not really things I would consider to be unprofessional. For real. The short-temper bit…that’s easiest to explain after it happens, as long as you’re keeping it more or less in-check. “Hey, sorry, I know I got a little short-tempered earlier, I’m just feeling a bit stressed out lately, what with things being busier, but I will work really hard on controlling that.” Who knows, your boss may not even have noticed it.

      When I had huge things going on in my life, I certainly talked to my manager about them, but for the most part, almost everyone gets stressed out and lets it show every now and then. It’s not the end of the world. Especially if your boss has demonstrated that he’s understanding, he’ll understand a slip here or there. Don’t let it stress you out too much.

      If you start to notice that your boss is acting differently toward you, you may need to think about addressing it, but other than that, it sounds like you’re managing your anxiety really well. And we’re all works in progress, every single one of us. The person who’s going to notice your anxiety the most if YOU. Seriously, you’re taking a lot of really important steps, you’re working on it, you’ve got professional help…you’re doing it. You’re managing your anxiety! Way to go! That’s awesome. Keep at it.

  74. A Name Like Any Other*

    I’m the second in command of a 15 person team at a ~100 person company. I’ve been here about a year and was hired to manage a large chunk of the team. I’m being promoted soon so that I will report to the department head and everyone else will report to me. My current challenge is the structure of the team is very flat, which has already given me too many direct reports, and the upcoming change is going to make this a bigger issue. We’re working on building in a little more hierarchy but I’m in a conundrum.

    One obvious grouping by responsibility is a set of four employees with two employees, Thelma and Louise, being more senior in the org structure. Given the situation, the only real solution would be to have Louise report to Thelma. What I’m stuck on is we just hired Louise a little over a month ago and I don’t want it to have pulled a bait and switch. It wouldn’t be the world’s biggest change because their work is different enough so Louise would basically have the same level of responsibility. However, I’m not thrilled about changing someone’s manager at the start of a new job.

    1. WellRed*

      That’s not a bait and switch. It’s a normal thing that happens. Be transparent with her every step of the way and make sure she knows she can come to you with concerns.

  75. a question*

    In your opinion is there ever a justifiable reason for professionally burning a bridge?

    During a girls catchup lunch filled with topics of movies and vacation plans, my friends and I had an interesting discussion about our careers. This segwayed into the off topic of what happens when one burn a bridge. We ended up discussing numerous examples. Perhaps I will share in the comments section but we were all of different thoughts. Our examples went from professional to crossovers between professional-personal scenarios. Some people had a passive approach saying keep you head down and internally vow to never help or work with a company/ person again; while others said to fight back with vengeance and burn the bridge.

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      I’m sure it’s justifiable, but these things tend to come back and bite you in the behind when you least expect it! I think as long as you’re prepared for that, then by all means, but–I don’t think it’s something that would necessarily work out well.

    2. Anon From Here*

      I don’t burn bridges. Better to never be available, answer politely, and then ghost after a year or two. Leave dramatic exits and witty come-backs and, like, arson to the movies.

    3. irene adler*

      If you are willing to accept any possible consequences resulting from burnt bridge, then I say knock yourself out.

      But know that stories about those who did such actions can linger on for decades. I know stories about bridge burning stunts that occurred in the 1980’s. Names, too.

    4. AnonRightNow*

      I think you burn bridges in two main scenarios. 1) when health/safety/legal issues are at play and going public/burning the bridge results in protecting others now or in the future. 2) when your personal cost/benefit analysis indicates that doing so is more likely to cause benefit than harm.

      Personal example on 2 is my last position, which I left due to concerns related to safety and welfare. When looking for a new job I chose to include a line about differences in philosophy related to welfare in my cover letter, for personal reasons related to my specific career history. In many cases this would be a bad thing to do, but for me, in this instance, I felt it was the right way to go. I have another great job, so the decision either helped or at least didn’t hurt me, but it’s a very personal decision to make and not to be done lightly.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I have only burned one professional bridge but that was because I discovered that (1) my boss was committing crimes and (2) his reputation was dismal. It was important to distance myself from him and to be seen doing so. However, I did it professionally — didn’t take out an ad in the paper or anything, I just made it clear when people asked about working for him that “there were a lot of ethical issues there.” He was so slimy he didn’t even really understand that the bridge was burned until I showed up to testify against him.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have burned a bridge. I knew I was doing it and I did it anyway. Almost our entire management team, from supervisors to director, left at the same time and a new group of people came in. We were salaried employees and they tried to implement an illegal PTO policy. I tried, in similar fashion to what Alison suggests for these things, to explain to them that what they were doing wasn’t acceptable. They blew me off. I took it to HR. I took it to legal. They sided with me. My director sat me down and essentially said “we’re doing it this way anyway.”

      And the bridge was burned. I was a troublemaker. I wasn’t listening to them. I was undermining them as new management. But for me, it was a hill to die on. Not just for me, but for my team. Now was the bridge burned in the sense that the company has blacklisted me or something? No. But could I use any of those people for a reference? Absolutely not. If I ever applied there again and they asked one of them about me, they would probably torpedo me. They were literally violating federal law and screwing over their hardworking salaried team. I may have to suffer consequences from that in the future. But if I did, I’d be ok with it. I mean, I did fantasize about leaving that job in an epic fashion, but I did not because I’m a professional (damnit).

      There is even more to the story about how the bridge was burned, specifically with the supervisor, but with the director it was that I reported him to HR/legal.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it matters whether a burnt bridge is “justified” or not. It’s a burnt bridge. The bridge is burnt. The real question is “Will you ever need that bridge to not be burnt and then regret having burnt it?”

      I know people who’ve burnt bridges and gone on with no real repercussions, and other people who’ve burnt bridges, and it’s hurt their future career opportunities (as you’d think it would).

      I’ve also known people who’ve burnt bridges, it hasn’t affected their career opportunities in an obvious way, but it’s also been super awkward for them in some professional situations in which they have to interact with the people they were horrible to.

    8. Lora*

      Oh yes.

      1. When the company is doing something illegal and you want it to be VERY clear that you had nothing to do with them and you are not tainted by their chicanery. Have seen people who did not do this, whose employer was hit hard with regulatory fines or shut down entirely, and they were very sad to find that nobody wanted to touch them either in case they got the Unethical Cooties.

      2. When a particular person in your line management or your direct department is spectacularly awful and you want to make sure nobody in the future will think you were influenced by their craptacular ideas / behaviors. I’m thinking here of a couple of guys I used to work for who were not only amazingly incompetent but horribly unethical and had gotten their jobs by virtue of having the right letters from the right school after their names – I don’t want anyone to think I had anything to do with these toolbags or any of the stunts they pulled. But on the other hand it’s not as if anyone else in the world thinks they are decent human beings at all, the whole industry at this point knows they are basically useless sacks of oxygen-wasting trash, so I lose nothing by agreeing with my colleagues that yes, Duh and Derp are terrible. On the contrary, if I disagreed with the senior industry leaders that enterprises employing Duh and Derp were sane and reasonable, I’d look like a feckless ding-dong wholly lacking in judgment and perception.

      You don’t necessarily have to fight actively to burn a bridge though. Generally I lean towards damning with faint praise or saying that I’d recommend going in a different direction and then recommending another person / company. People generally draw the conclusion that you know of some eldritch horrors no earthling should witness just based on that.

    9. Close Bracket*

      In the spirit of “the more you know,” a transition is a “segue.” A Segway is a type of individual, motorized vehicle that never caught on.

      I burn the f*ck out of bridge. Like, poured gasoline and gunpowder on it and denoted some dynamite underneath. Was it justifiable? Depends who you ask, but I gave no f*cks at that point. I’m ok with it. It remains to be seen whether there are professional repercussions, but if there are, I’m ok with that, too.

      1. WellRed*

        I got a laugh out of that. I actually had someone make sure to spell out segue to me in a phone convo this week. I bet it’s a common mistake.

    10. Lissa*

      I think it really depends on a lot of situations. If we’re talking, a company is doing something illegal, and your burning a bridge is going to be calling that to attention, yeah totally justifiable. But if it’s more of a “they were jerks so I quit spectacularly to make a point” then don’t, because it probably will not have the effect you want it to. Any time I read about that I just cringe so hard because obviously the person thinks they’re being very badass but the response is typically not “and bystanders stood up and applaud while offenders all realized the wrong they had done.”

  76. curious*

    I guess this is somewhat work related. I have a child aged relative with minor learning disability but it is a cause I champion for. I recently jointed a very very small agency as a volunteer (as in so small that the board and volunteers totals less than 10 people!). Due to some rebellion of some former board members and lack of volunteers I was literally voted onto the board within one month of joining. The board is made up of three other people, all who have welcomed me with open arms. I was honest from the start about my strengths and weaknesses.

    Here’s the problem… this is requiring a lot more time than I realized. I’m not quitting. This is a new challenge for me and I am enjoying doing something outside of my normal work. THe thing is I feel horrible that I can’t help as much as the other board members.

    For example:
    – sometimes meetings are last minute late at night, when I am unable to get childcare for my infant
    – Most of the board members have large extended families to help them with agency activities where as my family is small.
    – I have all these ideas I’ve been given the go ahead to implement but need someone to review my writing requests to higher ups/ outsiders get donations and help.
    – I just found out that I apparently never signed a paper from when I first joined hence am missing emails on a lot of the regulations of this charity.
    – Last week, I had a family emergency and at the last minute could not make it to an important meeting.
    – My husband was in a bad car accident. He will make a full recovery but it will take time. He’s not up yet to helping move heavy boxes or watching our young child for more than me running to the store.’

    Please know I am not slacking. I’m jumping in where ever I can. I just feel like I haven’t made that much of an impact to be of any assistance.

    Because of this I feel like I’m dragging the team down or I’m a let down/ failure to them. How do I deal with this? Do I ask them if they want me to resign? Should I take a step back. I know there is a learning curve. I joined for all the right reasons. I’m just not sure what to do

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      That sounds really stressful! It sounds like you are already doing the best you can. I think your best bet is to continue to be honest and transparent with your fellow board members and state that you are really enjoying the work you do, but that you didn’t realize how much time it was going to take. And then just continue to be clear. It sounds like they need you desperately, so it’s unlikely they will be angry about it! I am sure they will just be happy you are doing what you can, but honesty goes a long way.

      1. curious*

        SpiderLadyCEO thank you for the encouragement. The agency is doing happy hour soon as a get to know you event. There are a lot of new faces this year at the agency. I figure when we are in a more relaxed atmosphere I’ll bring things up casually with the board when there is a moment alone in the evening.

        One of the reasons I chose this agency is not only are they hands on but they seem to understand that the volunteers have other commitments outside of this cause. I just didn’t realize as a board member all the extras that would be required. I’m doing all I can, but my position on the board has had some hold ups to officially taking over due to needing to get all the board together to sign papers at an outside office only open certain hours a day. Among other things, I just feel like helping send out a news letter or bringing snacks to meetings is not that big of an impact. This is a great agency and a wonderful opportunity. The 10 people involved are doing the work and getting donations equivalent to an agency with 150 volunteers.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      NY has open meeting laws. This means no last minute meetings. Meetings have to be advertised to the public in certain ways and for a given amount of time. I dunno if you state has anything like that. But that would help with your meeting problem.

      This board sounds very disorganized and very short handed.

      One rule of thumb that is good to know, in rural areas and on small boards if you present an idea then you are in charge of it. You gotta run it. Don’t present any ideas that you won’t be able to take on. I go with two ideas at a time, if they are medium or small. If I have a big idea then it’s one idea at a time. I finish my idea(s) before moving on to new ones. Remember you are not on the board alone. Allow other people space to show off their stuff, too.

      Do you have their emails? You should be able to email them and let them know that you have family stuff going on so you can only do x, y and z for the moment.

      When groups quickly vote a person onto a board or other important position there are REASONS for that, such as DESPERATION and/or DYSFUNCTION. So that was a warning sign at the beginning. Of course you feel overloaded. They already know that.

      Try this exercise: You have been on the board for ten years. You have worked your butt off for this board and you KNOW it. How’s your guilt doing now? I bet your guilt would be close to zero because you are very much aware that you are not getting paid and you have worked hard.
      The same is true now. The deep dark secret is that small NPOs with small boards limp along and limp along. Your group is used to limping along. You came in and you were like a booster shot. So now you need some down time, it really should not be a problem. You will be back in a bit. They should be able to fill in the gaps as they go along. You will have a turn to pay it back later on because someone will have sick MIL/pet/broken furnace. It’s pretty normal stuff especially if groups stay together a long time.

      The best thing you can do is to be specific about what you are offering: I can do x but I cannot do y for the moment. Later I will be able to do y. OR I have Saturday open, if you guys need an extra hand at the car wash and bake sale, just call me.
      Here the point is they cannot mind read what is reasonable for you at this point. If you tell them what you can do that will probably be okay with them.

    3. valentine*

      If anyone has offered help like meals, tell them you need babysitting. If no, hire a mother’s helper to help your husband do the lifting or running after the child.

      Ask for the lead time you need or to call or video in to meetings. (In a locked room or your husband/baby/helper leave the building for the duration. What’s the emergency? Why the lack of notice?

      Don’t feel bad, but really look at whether you want to do this the way it’s done now, what you need changed and can change, and whether you would prefer to take a sabbatical, assuming they’d hold your position.

  77. Palomides*

    I work in a small dental office (just the dentist, myself, and 2 assistants). Sometimes it happens that an insurance company pays less than expected for a procedure, or that a patient manages to get treatments without making a payment (which is usually against our office policy). This happened last night and someone walked out without paying for about $300 worth of work. The dentist/owner is now telling us that if something like this happens again, he’s going to take the amount out of the paycheck of whoever made the error, because it’s “not his fault.” Is this illegal, or just icky?

    1. Amber Rose*

      In most places it’s illegal. I’d check your local laws and see what the rules are though.

      Unpaid bills are a risk of doing business. It’s not about fault.

    2. Auntie Social*

      It’s illegal. I’ve worked for dentists, they’re pretty crabby sometimes. Doesn’t the patient sign a contract indicating that he’s ultimately responsible for the bill whether insurance pays for it or not? I know I get statements after the procedure was submitted to insurance and I pay the balance. Does he want it all paid at the time services were rendered, like a veterinarian? Can’t you just call the patient the next day and say “in all the confusion you left without paying your balance, which card do you want to use, it’s $300?”
      Some offices keep a credit card on file “in case of emergency”. You could ask if he wants to do that, and you can stress to the patients that they can build air miles or whatever. My vet does that and it’s helpful. then you can call them the next day and say “I’m going to charge $300 to your American Airlines Visa unless there’s another card you want me to use.” Just some thoughts.

      1. Someone Else*

        But if they plan to keep cards “on file” they open themselves up to PCI compliance, and in an office that small, and this lacking in official billing policies, I doubt the boss would want to put in the effort to actually be compliant,which is its own major problem.

    3. Rey*

      I agree. I think Alison has mentioned that punitively adjusting someone’s paycheck can be problematic if it would drop the employee under minimum wage. I hope this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction from the dentist/owner, but you could come back in a few days to say, “I’m afraid that deducting the cost of the work from our paycheck could get us in trouble with the state labor board, but I think we could adjust the check out process by doing X or Y at the end of the appointment to decrease this issue.”

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Not a lawyer, but 99% sure that is illegal. The patient signs something saying they are responsible for payment. Are you supposed to tackle them as they walk out the door or something? No.

    5. Clawfoot*

      If you have the patient’s name and address, can you not send him the bill? Or call and ask him to arrange payment?

      I can absolutely see myself being absent-minded enough to walk out of the dentist’s office without paying, but I would be mortified and would rush right back to pay it if I were contacted about it.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do you send bills? Was the patient aware that they owed $300 before leaving? My dentist office usually deals with my insurance after my appointment, then I’m billed. I imagine that if I didn’t pay my bill, they wouldn’t schedule another appointment. Do you have a procedure like that in place?

      1. Palomides*

        Our usual procedure is to get fee before the procedure, so the patient was 100% aware. Unfortunately, the patient’s wife was going to pay and the Dr had finished up the procedure before I finished getting all the payments declined :\ His impatience is a whooooole other ball of wax, though

        1. JHunz*

          This is 100% on your boss if he’s not willing to wait for upfront payments to actually be completed to do the work.

        2. WellRed*

          It might not have helped this time, but can your office implement a checkout process? Even if that process is to say, “you are all set!” That way, those that owe money aren’t sneaking out.

    7. Anon From Here*

      So … you send them a bill. This is how fees for service work. If you don’t get payment up front or, like, hold a credit card or run a pre-payment, then you send a bill to the patient if they walk out, or if the insurance payment doesn’t cover the entire bill. And then if the patient doesn’t pay the bill after a few tries, you send the account to a collections agency.

      I get that dental school isn’t accountant school, but c’mon. Maybe you can get your boss a “How to Run a Business 101” book for Christmas.

  78. Trouble*

    I have one week and four days of my notice left.

    My new job is in a different industry and is a totally different line of work, so I’m terrified!

    But I’m so far into BEC stage with this place I just really can’t wait to wake up that Monday and know I don’t have to come here.

    Anyone have coping strategies for working your notice with your sanity intact at the end?

    1. Kathenus*

      Just focus on the light at the end of the tunnel. Revel in the fact that you are soon Out. of. There. Let it roll off your back and put it all aside at 5pm until the next day. But, and this is important, do good work both for your own sense of integrity, and because you never know where your career will take you and you don’t want to give anyone the ability to say that Trouble checked out and did bad work during their notice.

      Do the work, don’t let it become personal, be professional, and every day just remember that it’s almost over!

  79. Sassy Spacek*

    I left a toxic job where the male manager had issues with women but my partner still works there, and yesterday he saw the manager lean in a sexual way over a new staff member in his team (which is next to but separate from the problem manager’s team). He told her he would have work for her (we can’t see how this would be true) and asked her to let him know if she ever wanted to go for a drink with him. We don’t know what to do as we know his manager isn’t interested in managing staff, period. (When he threatened a staff member in the past she hired a consultant to mediate but the mediation never happened because almost all of the staff left within weeks.)

    2. Kathenus*

      It’s really important for everyone to be part of solving this type of thing. If your partner saw this, I really hope they’ll report it to HR. We all need to take action to start showing that this is NOT OK, and that there are eyes and ears everywhere that will act and report this type of inappropriate behavior.

    4. valentine*

      Your partner can prepare scripts to derail predators: basically invite himself along, pretend he’s jealous, or just hone in on the conversation and change the subject.

  80. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

    In December I’m moving back in with family for a few months (long story, personal stuff) and am hoping to get my old job (part time at a nonprofit, fairly casual) back. I left it in fall of last year. I also volunteered there before I was hired (common for the org). Ideally I’d be paid staff because money is nice, but I’d be happy to volunteer again if they don’t have room for me. Any suggestions for email wording that conveys that? I left on good terms and they seemed sorry to lose me.

    1. fposte*

      What about breaking it up into two communications, to avoid the “I’ll work for you for free if you don’t have a paid spot” effect? First email is saying you’ll be back in town, is there a possibility that you could rejoin them in your old capacity? If they say no, then the second email is “That’s okay, but I’d still love to volunteer, if that would work.”

  81. LQ*

    I work (I’m the outsider) with a bunch of IT folks who are really not curious at all about anything and it’s really a struggle. I can’t offer to pay them more, but I can offer trainings, new software, new tools, new projects. I’ve been trying to encourage curiosity a bit and every time I see it doing what I can to reward it (a lot of calling it out when I see it and encouraging it, thanking people for digging into things even when they go nowhere and encouraging the understanding of the path not taken, talking them up in front of their boss and my boss, when they struggle to solve a problem offering resources (training, support etc).
    Any other thoughts about encouraging curiosity in devs?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Hire new devs? It may seem weird to fire someone if they’re doing the bare minimum of their jobs and aren’t curious, but “I’m not curious” isn’t a protected class, so it’s really okay to say “Hey, I need you all to be curious about trying new tools and expanding,” and then to let them go if that doesn’t happen.

      That said, is it genuinely because they aren’t curious at all? Or could they be stretched so thin at work that they don’t have the extra energy to explore new things?

      1. LQ*

        Unfortunately I don’t have the authority to hire/fire.

        Interestingly I do think that with at least a couple of smaller groups of 1s and 2s I could say, “Hey I need you to be curious and try some new tools and expand.” Which might get some traction. They aren’t all stretched thin. We’ve taken away more and more and more work. I had a couple of people who basically had one small project without a deadline and the direct goal to explore and learn. One seized the opportunity and charged forward (and is the best, she is the curious person already) and the other just bugged other developers with like personal chatting and not doing anything. So it’s not just stretched thin. It’s a culture of not being curious.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Sorry. I misread it as you being their manager. Don’t know how I missed “I’m the outsider.” It’s really up to their managers to change that culture.

          One seized the opportunity and charged forward (and is the best, she is the curious person already)

          If the managers want to change the culture, they could give some kind of reward to this person. Give her a reason or a title bump or some other kind of recognition.

          1. LQ*

            Yeah the managers are 10000% the real problem. While I feel like I can make some difference in their lives and hopefully make things feel better, I don’t feel like I can change their leadership.

            Their pay I can’t change. (Though gvt and union so their boss can’t really either.) But I’m going for at least more interesting work and working on projects that are real solid resume builders, not that I want the best people to leave, but if they haven’t left yet, I do feel like they aren’t really likely to leave, the last few years were really hard on a lot of these folks who got squished into boxes by management, if they were going to, I think they would have. Things are improving at this point (at least for the ones I’m trying to scoop into my realm of influence) so I think there is hope. I feel silly just saying, “You’re doing awesome, is there a reward I can give you that I can actually do?” But maybe there is a way to say something like that without being condescending or too oblique.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have found that when people are complacent, for some reason especially in IT, it is extremely hard to try and get them to become curious. Some people naturally aren’t, and will never be, and some people are happy with the status quo and just want to let things be.

      So the first question is, what are you trying to accomplish? Let’s say they get curious! And? Are you trying to solve a problem? Do you just think they should be and they’re not? Because… leave them alone, frankly, if that’s the case. Now if the issue is that everything is status quo and things are broken, then yes, encouraging being innovative is important. First, people need some responsibility and support to be able to DO things outside the norm. No one feels good at work when they invest a ton of time learning something, proposing something, working it all up, and then constantly getting a “nope.” In fact, that’s why so many people end up settling at the status quo. They may get curious and passionate about something, but then it never goes anywhere, and they feel like it was all wasted. And sure, you can offer trainings and resources and things, which is cool, but is that something they are going to be expected to do on top of their workload, resulting in later work hours? Even I won’t do that, and I LOVE learning new things and do it regularly.

      As not their boss, you can’t really promise that if they spend their time and energy on things it will actually result in something. I would say that you could entice them with conferences. Most people will love that. A little travel, getting to network, and then the whole thing is about learning something new and seeing it in action. Most of the time people would come back from conferences with tons of new ideas and things like that, including myself. So if that’s a possibility, ask them if there’s a conference they’re interested in going to. A conference for their type of dev work, for a certain software, for whatever. They are much more likely to be interested in that and will have specific time set aside for learning with no distractions and will see how other people in their industry or type of work are doing things which can give them ideas and inspiration.

      1. LQ*

        The issue is everything is status quo. Stuff like libraries haven’t been updated in WELL over a decade, we still use development practices from when Lycos was cool (and not the retro good ones, the face slappingly bad ones). Automation terrifies most of them (I’ve finally made some little inroads on that one though). Code review is apparently for chumps. And it’s really starting to show in an inability to do anything new or fix anything that’s broken beyond a bandage.

        The point about getting a nope is hard because the only change that gets proposed is basically “Let’s throw everything out and start over” which we tried but was a massive million dollar failure (which was a failure because 9 months later we had 2 screens that were so riddled with bugs and problems that they were entirely wasted) and the devs somehow don’t feel like it was that bad because most of them keep trying to push that direction.

        No to later hours (they are hourly and we don’t do much ot, we actually take other work off their plate) so that’s not it. And no one is expecting people to learn off the clock.

        I do think I have to find a way to get them to propose things I can say yes to. Something that isn’t start over, but is a small thing. I am making small headway with a few folks and keep hoping other people will see the good parts and that can help to grow, but I also wonder if the successes aren’t being communicated well. Find a yes, send them to a conference somewhere nice, and make sure everyone hears that this is what happens when you propose something. I’ll work on that. Thank you!!

  82. SpiderLadyCEO*

    This is mostly hypothetical right now but I’d like to know how to address it when the time comes!

    There is a conference in spring that I might have to attend for work. I attended it last year, and because of that, I might have to attend it this year. I mentioned it to my boss, and we’re currently undecided if we need to go, but last year the decision was made the week before I needed to be out of town – very last minute.

    The 2019 conference is going to be held in the city where my brother and his GF live, which is awesome! It means if I have to go, I’ll definitely get to see them. It’s also the weekend before she graduates and the week of my mom’s spring break.

    Mom would like to buy tickets for me, brothers GF, and herself to attend an event in another city 2 hours north by car from the city brother and GF live in, with the thought that we will most likely all be in the area anyway. The event is Tuesday BEFORE the conference (which is Thursday-Sunday). I can definitely go! Work will see no issue w/ me taking those days off, and the time is available to me.

    But how should I handle the purchasing of airfare? The sooner I buy it, the cheaper it will be. If work wants to send me to this conference, they would def pay for my flight/hotel for the days I’m at the conference. I’m not even sure what days I would buy plane tix for…I have no clue how to plan for this!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Just be direct with your supervisor: “Last year we’d talked about sending me back to the XYZ conference. I have some other travel arrangements that I need to make for that same time frame, so I’d like to nail down whether I’ll be at the conference. What’s your current thinking?” (or: “I’d like to attend. Should I plan on that and make my travel arrangements around the conference?”)

      1. valentine*

        If work isn’t buying tickets now and you’ll go to the graduation or this event even if you don’t go to the conference, buy the tickets and expense them when the conference travel’s planned.

    2. Tara S.*

      It’s normal to ask for the tickets your work buys to accommodate the vacation you plan on taking. If you make it clear that you will be taking Mon-Wed (or whatever) as vacation, and then showing up at the conference Thursday, just say that and ask the ticket to leave on X (Friday night, Sat, whatever day you actually want to travel). It’s unlikely that changing the travel day will cost them significantly more than if you only traveled for the conference, so this is a thing most places will accommodate. (Which is to say, I do this all the time in my job when I book travel for people who want to tack vacation onto their work trip.)

      1. Ali G*

        What I used to do when I wanted to extend airfare is print out the cost of the ticket for if I was just doing the work travel and then the cost of the ticket for the extended trip. If the work ticket is greater or equal to the one with my personal travel (which was almost always the case – thanks Saturday stay-over!) then I could expense it no problem. If the other ticket was more, then I would have to get permission from my boss, but I never had a problem.

        1. Tara S.*

          Yeah, I work in higher ed and we always have to have evidence of the comparison, but not every place will make you do that much.

  83. Teacher in Need of Advice*

    This is my first year teaching and I’m overwhelmed. I just got yelled at by an assistant principal because a student who hasn’t been in my classroom in 42 days is failing and this AP doesn’t want ANY kids to fail. (This is High School). Well, of course she’s failing, she’s not here! I called home, did all the usual teacher things, but the parents just don’t seem to care. They don’t answer phone calls or return them. When I email, I never get a response. I went to the guidance counselor to ask for help with this student four weeks ago and she said “oh, she’s been a 9th grader for 4 years, don’t worry about it.”

    Is this the norm for schools? What the heck?
    Is this a toxic school? Am I just crazy?
    I’m seriously ready to throw my keys on the desk and leave and never come back. I work almost 70 hrs a week, get barely 25 minutes to eat lunch, got talked into sponsoring a club I don’t want to do…my Department Head is awesome, but she had a baby at the end of October and is out on FMLA so I don’t think I’m allowed to ask her for help. The other teachers in this department aren’t particularly helpful and seem annoyed when I ask for their assistance. What do I do?

    1. ResearchSnail*

      Hi, new teacher! Solidarity.

      The assistant principal yelling is not normal. It’s not OK for her to raise your voice to you. It sounds like you have done a lot to try to help this student. Ultimately there is a point at which students are responsible for their own learning, and they get to choose to fail if that’s what they want to do. The student should know that you care about her and want her to come back to class — but you can’t force her to come.

      I don’t know about your school culture, but if an assistant principal raised her voice to me, I’d bring it up with the principal as a problematic issue. This might not work at all schools, but it would work at mine.

      It sounds like things are hard. More than anything, you need rest and a break. The first rule of teaching is, don’t break the teacher. If the teacher breaks, everybody loses. Please find a way to do what you need to do to get yourself some peace, rest, and fun.

      The first year of teaching is really hard, but if you can make it through it gets a lot easier later on.

    2. LG*

      I recently left teaching after several years in the classroom for similar-ish reasons. I would run into an issue like “your child has missed 25 math classes this year; I don’t know if honors math is the best choice for him next year,” and would be met by extreme hostility and blame by parents and not terribly vigorous support from admin.

      The first year is really, really hard. The second year can be a little easier once you’ve got a better feel for the flow of your curriculum, a little more authority and some more experience under your belt. I would say in your situation to not be afraid to look at other schools. If your own admin is chewing you out for a student missing weeks of class, that’s not a supportive environment, especially for a new teacher. You at least need admin to have your back when you’re doing the right stuff, even if they are dismayed at the situation.

      Also January/February is a hard time of the school year (post holiday break, but far from spring break or nice weather). Take time for yourself if you can!

    3. Tara S.*

      First year of teaching is hell year, almost no matter what. However, the yelling and unreasonable expectations you describe are not ok or going to happen at every school. I’m not going to say your schools is unique (unrealistic expectations of teachers and letting kids slip through the cracks happens in more places than we would like), but there will be places better than this. My friend was ready to quit teaching middle school last year it was so bad (for diff. reasons than you described) but now he’s at a new school and it’s way better. See if you can stick it out until your dept. head gets back, and if things don’t get better, start looking at other schools.

    4. Amtelope*

      You can’t make this kid come to school. However, is there something that your assistant principal may think you’re supposed to be doing besides failing her? Is your school’s policy to give an incomplete or no credit grade rather than an F when students miss this much class? You might try asking the guidance counselor (or anyone you can find in the administration who doesn’t typically yell at you).

    5. blackcat*

      Toxic AP. Maybe not toxic school, but it’s not reasonable to expect no kids to fail. Listen to the counselor and file this under Not. Your Problem after just a couple more steps. Send an email to the guidance counselor, cc-ing principal and AP, just letting them know that this student has had X absences and is on track to fail. This is a CYA move.
      To actually help the kid: Can you see who this kid’s other teachers are? If so, shoot them an email and just ask “Hey, Kid hasn’t been in my class for 42 days. Do you know the deal? I haven’t been able to reach the parents, have you?” If all you get is “Yep, failing my class too, can’t reach the parents” well, then, add this to your CYA email folder. Then file under not your problem and move on.

      This definitely happens. I had one of these kids during my student teaching. Went to the guidance counselor.
      Him: “Oh, this kid. I remember his mom.”
      Me: *looks puzzled, as guidance counselor does not appear to be older than 35*
      Him: “Oh, his mom dropped out her freshman year when she was pregnant. I did my best with her, but just couldn’t get her to come back to school. Unfortunately, there’s not much you can do. Let’s send *official warning letter* home so that we cover our behinds. I’ll keep an eye on his attendance and if he misses 5 more days, I’ll notify the truancy officer.”
      (Turns out, this kid actually showed up to my class *more often* than any other. He liked me! And liked science! But he didn’t like school. So he didn’t like to come.)

    6. Minerva McGonagall*

      Sounds like your AP and possibly your department/school has some problems. I hope your department head is back soon. In the meantime, are there other younger teachers in other departments you could reach out to for help? They will know better than anyone what you are going through.

      Your first year (and more, tbh) is going to be hard. My husband is in his 4th year and says that this is his most difficult year. He is constantly communicating with parents; some reply, some don’t. It really bothered him last year when he was in his first year in this district, but this year it’s more like, yeah, it happens. Since your AP is out of the classroom for good reasons, could you give that student an Incomplete?

      Please take time for yourself. If you have sick days, please do not be afraid to use them for your mental health. Try to set a limit on how much work you do at home (which is hard, I know, but it helps). Don’t blame yourself for this student’s failings. Update your resume with this job/the extra duties. Keep an eye out for other positions.

    7. SouthernGuy*

      Sorry to say that this sounds totally normal to me based on my spouse’s and mom’s experiences. My mom is now retired, but my spouse has bouts of depression and anxiety and continuously talks about leaving the profession. She’s been teaching for 15 years. When she taught in the Philippines, it was much different. The kids there are very respectful, as are the other employees.

    8. Gumby*

      Do you have a mentor teacher? At the last school district where my mom worked every new teacher (even experienced teachers new to the school/district) were assigned a mentor teacher. It was only official for the first year or 6 months or whatever, but it gave new teachers a point of contact for this type of thing. I think the mentor teachers got some small (like $50) benefit from taking on the role. My mom did it fairly regularly.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      You are getting some good advice here, and I agree: talk to other teachers too (is it just your class, or all classes?)

      – from now on, all emails you send home to parents, cc AP / Principal (maybe give heads up first so principal isn’t like, why am I getting these emails?)
      – can you talk to secretary to get attendance records too?
      – where I am, a student missing that much school would be considered truant. Is there a truancy department you can contact?
      – for some jurisdictions, high school funding is based on credits taken and passed, and therefore failed students = no credits = no money. This is likely what the AP is stressed about, but it doesn’t excuse the yelling. It’s an explanation but not an excuse. Personally I don’t believe in passing kids just to pass them if they haven’t met the curricular outcomes, and my school follows that philosophy, but I have noticed I teach on a bit of an island that way.
      – the first year sucks. The first five years are hard as hell and there is a reason around 50% of new teachers quit in the first five years. Last night I had parent teacher interviews and several colleagues got raked over the coals. It happens, but it gets better. Part of it is that you’re a new teacher (I’m guessing you’re young too?) and a lot of staff and parents seem to forget what it was like starting their career. You will survive. The school year is only 1/3 over. I have been teaching for 15 years and I also average 50 hours/week. Part of it’s the nature of the job. The kids will remember that you took the time to run clubs etc. Hang in there!

    10. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Normal for first year and on and off beyond that : Feeling overwhelmed, having no time to recharge during the day, parents who don’t support their children in ways that seem helpful, being guilted into club running and 70+ hour weeks.

      Not normal: Being yelled at. That one is not okay. It’s normal for administrators to have some weird ideas about students who are failing (and to be fair, your AP is probably getting a lot of No Failing Ever rhetoric from the district and is just passing the ridiculousness along).

      What to do: Document, document, document. If your school has a program for logging parent contact like Power School make sure you have logged every attempted call and email. Check the student’s cumulative record and verify how long this has been a problem and if there is any background in her file. Check in with her other teachers to see if they are having similar issues. Check into any programs that you have in your school to support kids in crisis (resource, student success team, attendance support person etc,) Once you have done all this, show your documents to your AP and, very calmly and professionally, ask them to offer some guidance for your next steps. If they freak out at you again, then they are toxic as can be and you should try to find a new school next year.

      Until your department head gets back, could you look for friends and mentors in other departments? Maybe if you can make it to the staff room at lunch for your 25 minutes you can find someone to commiserate with or who might have some advice. Good schools, no matter how difficult the kids, will have teachers who are usually happy to support the newbies.

      More generally, some things I wish I had known my first year. 1- You will go to pd and staff meetings where “experts” will try to tell you that if one kid is failing then you have failed as a teacher. This Is Not True. You need to try everything you can to support all of your students, but that isn’t going to fix every kid. Don’t beat yourself up too hard. 2- It’s okay to pull out a worksheet when you are too fried to build a cross-curricular, multiple intelligence, problem based, project based lesson (with coding). Old school activities shouldn’t be your mainstay, but you can keep adding great lessons as they occur to you and not feel like everything you do has to be perfect. 3- Teaching will eat up any time you feed it. It’s counter-intuitive, but you will probably be a better teacher saying nope! that’s enough at 50-60 hours and taking that time to recharge.

    11. valentine*

      Job search. Is there a school counselor who can help you with this? Assume the parents care, but the household members are overwhelmed, moving from crisis to crisis, barely getting by, and focused on survival. What would you do differently? Do you have work numbers? Is there a backup emergency contact that doesn’t live with them? Any other contacts, whatsoever, for whom it’d be appropriate to go to the house and knock on the door? If the family’s white, is it safe to ask police to do a welfare check?

  84. Beth Anne*

    So in a PF group I’m in a girl’s job was allowing people to get paid in a lump sum once a year instead of every 2 weeks or whatever the normal pay schedule is.

    I have never heard of this. Has anyone else? Has anyone done this? I can see pros and cons of doing this.

    Pros you could literally pay all your “fixed” expenses like mortgage/rent and utilities and basically only have to deal with discretionary spending the rest of the year. Con you could spend it all by June and then you are in big trouble. Another issue people in the comments were saying is what happens if say in June you leave the job or get a new job for whatever reason or are fired. Do you then have to pay the company back like say $20,000 or whatever money is left…or is the money considered “earned” on January 1 and then the loss is on the company? Some people in the comments have heard of it as companies do it to save admin money b/c then there’s less payroll to do regularly. I have a teacher friend that gets 4 deposits on June 4th for all her summer pay for June and July.

    Was an interesting theory that I don’t know that I would do but is intriguing at the same time.

    Has anyone

    1. fposte*

      Wow, never heard of it. I don’t see it as much of an advantage for me–I don’t even think I could set up mortgage or utilities to be paid in a lump sum without their costing me extra. But maybe I’d find something that made me change my mind.

      1. Beth Anne*

        I actually applied for a job recently that owned a water company for some condos and in the interview they told me oh a lot of people will pay us $500 and we just apply it to their account and when they run out of money we call them and they send them more. My mom was saying people who aren’t living paycheck to paycheck will do this b/c they don’t want to deal with paying bills every month. So weird to me though.

        1. Beth Jacobs*

          I’m outside the US… but I just set my utilities to auto pay through direct debit. The only way it wouldn’t go through is if it exceeded the limit I’d set for that bill or if I had insufficient balance in my account. Seems easier than fronting the money and then wondering if there’s still some left (I wouldn’t like to miss a few phone calls and wake up to the utilities turned off).

    2. Snubble*

      Are they paying at the start or end of the year? Either way that seems like a huge loan. Either you are providing your labour on credit for a full year and will have to live off savings, or your company is loaning you eleven months of pay you’ll have to pay back in labour. I can see the teacher’s pay thing, because the time period is so much shorter, but I’d hate to work under that system. I like my monthly payslips!
      (One company employed a relative of mine and paid on the 15th of each month, so you give them two weeks on credit and they give you two weeks. I thought that was very equitable.)

    3. Wishing You Well*

      The lump-sum isn’t legal in many states. State laws dictate how promptly workers must be paid.
      Don’t let a company owe you money. They can go out of business, fire you or simply refuse to pay you.
      A friend of mine allowed his company to owe him over $20,000 in back pay for months of work. He was never paid.

      1. Anonnow*

        It would probably be legal if it were done in advance (paid on 1/1/19 for all of 2019), but it seems like a logistical nightmare.

    4. Beth Jacobs*

      I’m not that terrible with money, but this would be really hard for me. I think I’d have to “fake” paychecks to myself – I’d probably set up an account at a different bank, deopsit the salary, set up a monthly transfer to the account I actually use and then cut up the card for the deposit account. Basically make it really inconvenient for me to spend the money early. No way would I pay my rent in advance – what if I want to move?
      I think it’s never advantageous for the company to front this money – they’re providing a huge a loan interest free and it’s an enormous risk. The admin savings will be wiped out by the first person who quits mid year and doesn’t pay it back – lawsuits cost money. And I think the situations where it will benefit the employee are quite rare – there’s a few circumstances where someone could use it to pay off some high interest debt, but otherwise, there’s no use in having the money upfront since you know you can’t spend it all in January anyway.

      1. Beth ANNE*

        My guess is that in like January 2019 they are going to pay her for all of 2019. I can’t imagine anyone working for a year without pay plus that would be illegal in most states.

        That was everyones question in the group if you did it and quit would you have to pay the money back? But the girl didn’t know. Some people have heard there’s a higher tax doing it that way but the girl said no. She said she’s going to do it we’ll see what happens i GUESS.

        1. fposte*

          They might have a higher withholding, like a 20% since it’s a lump sum (there are intricate IRS regs here that I don’t know at all, but I know 20% is at least a common practice), but it wouldn’t leave people taxed at a higher rate–they’d just get the overpayment back as a refund.

  85. Valor*

    On my six-month employee evaluation, I got a critique for something I’ve never done, and a goal of doing something I’ve been doing for over a month. To use the metaphor: my supervisor said I spend too much time researching teapot spouts, and not enough time on other design features. I’ve literally never turned in a report about spouts, and have been writing reports on a different feature every week since I received a direction to diversify over a month ago. Also, I was hired with an understanding that I had a focus on spouts, and no one else on the team handled spouts at all. Now, my colleague had his annual review yesterday (he’s been here 1 year longer than I), and he received a similar critique, except he was told he focuses too much on lids, when he also has never done a report on lids, and is our team-lid liaison.
    I don’t know what to do on this. Realistically, it is an easy goal to meet, since I’ve been doing it for a while, but if my supervisor hasn’t actually noticed the content of my report, why am I turning them in? Will she even notice that I’ve achieved a goal at the end of the year, if she doesn’t know I was already doing it? Also, I genuinely care about spouts. Spouts are really important to me, and if my supervisor thinks I talk too much about spouts as it is, when I have never actually reported on spouts, how could I possibly make effective change on the subject of spouts?

    1. fposte*

      That seems like something to ask your supervisor about directly. Leave your co-worker out of it; just say you were confused by some of the feedback, and could you discuss it a little?

      1. valentine*

        Yes. Be ready with maybe three examples of what you’ve done, including way back and most recently.

  86. ResearchSnail*

    I was hoping to get some advice for a college student I’m mentoring. She is in her second year of college, and is a first-generation college student. My student (I’ll call her Sylvia) is clever, thoughtful, and creative, with a strong work-ethic. Sylvia loves working with young children, and she loves music and dance, so she has been thinking careers in early childhood education or music therapy. But money and job security are also concerns, so I’ve suggested she think about other possible careers too.

    I’d love to get responses from AAM commentators about suggestions for things Sylvia might want to think about as she approaches the next few years of college and thinks about her future career.

    1. CTT*

      I don’t have any other career suggestions, but for early education: I have many friends who studied education in college, and one thing they all talk about was how important it was that the program got them in classrooms at least once a week every semester semesters before they did their student teaching. For those who did become teachers it was great experience and helped them make connections that turned into jobs. For those who did not become teachers, it was a wake-up call in their sophomore year to change paths instead of being stuck with it. So I would ask her if the education program at her school does something similar.

      1. Traveling Teacher*

        +1000! I cannot emphasize how important this is! So many people dropped out of my Ed cohort because they could see the true realities of teaching in the classroom once there (we were lucky enough to have a program that had is in-classroom about 9 weeks/semester for practicums).

        One thing that I struggled with–and frankly still do to a smaller extent–is the absolute mountain of planning and paperwork entailed in educational careers. That’s one of the main reasons I left full-time Ed after about 7 years. Anyone who goes into Ed has to understand that at least 40-50 percent of the job is organizational.

        Also, seeing how she does with real-world classroom respect/rapport and discipline in this context will be invaluable. Many students will not love you (excepting very young children), and that was really hard for many of my cohort to deal with, as well, as we were mostly students who had always loved school, always behaved quite well. In the mix, you have to include dealing with parents–especially in something as fraught as music. Music and theatre teacher friends all have their stories of horror parents who are desperate to get their kid a solo/lead/etc. Is she prepared to deal with this? Talking candidly with music and dance pros in the fields that interest her should be a top priority at this stage.

        Thirdly, to be hired fulltime, she will likely need a strong “main” subject, otherwise she is likely to get laid off quickly during budget cuts or work for several districts. She’ll likely spend at least some of her time teaching that other subject for many years.

        I don’t want to be a Debbie Downer, but education is not automatically the secure, good job that it used to be. Also, I was pigeonholed into teaching by my own parents who, although college-educated, were basically unaware of the enormous field of possibilities I would have in other, related specialties to my interests and skills. Teaching something, though rewarding, is very different from learning and doing it yourself. It also pays a pittance for the 10-12 hour days she will be doing, especially in music and dance, where she will likely take on coaching and other support roles.

        Music therapy could be one to look into, especially with the greying population, as well as musicology. But, there is nothing wrong with going for cash money in STEM or other fields…

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      I am a first gen college attendee and I prioritized money out of school. Sometimes I get wistful that I could have gone more into my passionate route but then I think about how I can enjoy so much with my current income.

      I know child care and education are extremely poorly funded in the US. I know my cousin got out of teaching after just a year.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      College career counselor here! Education, be it early childhood or elementary (my state has them separate), sounds like it could be a great path for her. Plus, many states are desperate for subs and we are on the verge if not already in a national teaching shortage. If she is okay with moving or starting her career in a large city, she will have a much easier time finding a full time teaching job. In addition, she could add on after getting the initial certification and go to be a guidance counselor or a specialist, which makes more money than a traditional teacher. She may also find interest in a Human Services major/field, which can be more broad than an Education degree.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I had a friend who had a similar background and interest profile. She majored in music ed., but by the time she finished her degree she knew she did not want to be in the classroom. She ended up working in a music ed-related non profit. Now (15+ yrs later) she is an executive director for a different music ed nonprofit. I’d definitely tell her you can still pivot to different paths throughout your life.

      Personally, if she were my kid, I’d still want to make sure she looked into other more financially lucrative career paths, too, before making her final decision. It’s easy to discount a STEM or business job as something you aren’t interested in, but I was a polymath high school geek who is happy in engineering instead of foreign language (plan B) and my friend’s daughter was 100% set on majoring in theater and ended up in pharmacy. She’s a happy, well-off PharmD now. You never know what you will really enjoy as a career until you do some first-person exploration.

    5. Roja*

      Dance therapy might be an option too. It’s a fairly new field and I do see it growing in the coming years. I have a friend or two who’s gone into it.

  87. Peachywithasideofkeen*

    Hey everyone! My job has been pretty crazy lately. In the past 6 weeks, 13/17 managers have resigned including my boss and we were transferred to new ownership. Some of them have gone to another company together and I am actually in the process of interviewing with that company. I have a phone interview next week, not with my old boss but someone higher up in the corporation. I’m not sure what to say if I am asked why I am considering leaving my current position. The transition to new ownership has not gone very smoothly and I’ve gotten some red flags from our new owners, but it really is too soon to tell and I do think things here will calm down and get better. I have been casually job searching since I found out my boss was leaving, but I was planning to stick it out in my old position for awhile longer to see how it goes. However, I don’t want to pass up the chance to work with my old boss and several of my old coworkers again. What is the best way to phrase this to an interviewer without seeming like I’m jumping ship due to this new ownership without really giving them a chance?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think it’s okay to say something like, “There’s been a lot of turnover lately, and I’m looking for somewhere with more stability. I’ve enjoyed my time there, but with all the changes and new ownership, it seems like now is the perfect time to transition elsewhere and get a fresh start to pursue opportunities like XYZ.”

    2. Buu*

      Since it’s a period of change at your company and it’s likely to be different to work at anyway, you wanted to take the chance to look for new opportunities and when you saw the opening for NEW job you were excited as it’s the kind of career move you were looking to make.

      Good luck! If you are OK with staying with your current job then there’s no real pressure here so you can focus on doing your best..and possibly negotiating for better pay/conditions.

  88. matcha123*

    A new guy came into my section earlier this year, and he is generally a nice person. BUT. He whispers to himself, quite loudly, and all I hear is “TSP…TSp…TSP…” at the end of the documents he’s reading. He also hums to himself and talks to himself. We are in an open office with desks right next to each other. I’d say he’s about two feet away from me.
    When he came, and I noticed his whispering, I waited for an opportunity to speak directly to him (no one around to hear, since he was new).
    He said that he needs to read things to himself to concentrate (fair enough) and that he’ll try to keep it down (ok) and told me I should tell him when he gets too loud (err…).

    I may have said something to him once or twice since then, but my position is that I’m not his mother, I’m not his wife, I’m not his caretaker. He, as a grown man of at least 30, should be able to tell when his voice is too loud.
    Adding to that he seems to try his hardest to make as much noise as possible. On the phone his voice goes from normal to LOUD to normal to LOUD and then LOUDER and then normal and then ALL THE LAUGHTER.

    I can’t listen to music or put on headphones.

    It is taking every ounce of strength to keep from ripping out his esophagus, strangling him with it, and then melting his body in acid and setting the acid on fire.

    I also can’t move my desk. Should I have kept telling him to be quiet? I feel like once with a reminder is enough, as, again, I’m not his mother.

    Oh, he will literally sssss out any s there is. “Uhhhhhhhh….yessssssssssssssSSSsSsSssssssss…..” and that is not an exaggeration, though I wish it were.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      No real advice, just sympathy. That would drive me nuts. I suppose you could just actually start telling him frequently he’s too loud?

      Are you positive you can’t move desks? Or switch with someone? Could you check with your manager about that?

      Otherwise, do you have any areas you could take your laptop (if you have one) and work that aren’t your desk? I occasionally plant myself in a comfy chair in our break room to work for an hour or two. We also are fortunate to have “small conference rooms” for like 2-4 people, and I’ll snag one if it’s empty (but not book, so I don’t take it from an actual meeting).

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Tell him every time he’s too loud. Be nice, but use words. Right now he’s happily making his noises and you want to kill him. Share the pain a little bit. “sorry, Larry, I’m trying to concentrate. Can you keep it down?” “I’m sure you don’t realize it, but you’re doing it again.” Until he is worried about making noise because you will Speak.

    5. Oof*

      I would not view it as him trying to be loud – I can be loud too, and when I was working on it (or going through a tune up) I would often start off low, and then have the volume rise unintentionally. I have some slight hearing issues, so I don’t really hear my own volume well, even though I am beyond being grown-ass to being old-ass! (haha) I asked people to just tell me when I was getting too loud, so I would know when to calibrate, and I never saw it as being “mothered” – it was giving me the facts I needed. So I am firmly in camp let him know. If that doesn’t solve it, then perhaps talk about seating arrangements with your manager.

      1. valentine*

        It’s not that the recipient is being mothered, but that they’ve said “DIY” and assigned the colleague they’re disrupting the task of mothering/monitoring them.

    6. Slartibartfast*

      I can be this person. If I am, PLEASE tell me! I am not aware of it in the moment, but the more you bring it to my attention the better I can mediate it. It can be a code word, hand signal or clearing your throat, whatever is least obtrusive for you. I don’t want you to feel like you’re mothering me, but I am genuinely unaware enough to self police it reliably and I really don’t want to annoy you either. Believe me, if I could I would.

  89. Anon librarian*

    I have my MLIS but have never held a librarian position. I’ve tried to get one, but it never worked out. I apply for paraprofessional positions, but they see my degree and question why I’m not applying for higher positions. I feel like I’m screwed either way. What should I do?

    1. fposte*

      How long out of school are you, and how far away physically? Network like crazy is the best route. If you’re public, try to get into the sub pool at one of your nearby libraries.

      1. Anon librarian*

        10 years; I’ve held other jobs like Library Assistant, Information Specialist, etc. but it’s tough to find a librarian position.

    2. An Archivist*

      All of our full-time paraprofessional positions get tons of applications from people with MLS degrees, but the market doesn’t favor people without library experience. Do you have volunteer experience? It could definitely help to volunteer if you have the time.

  90. kristin*

    Background: I do a lot of project based work for internal users at various levels at my company. Occasionally I have face-to-face meetings to go over issues and/or do show-and-tells about where I’m at on a project. I don’t have an office, so when there are multiple stakeholders I just book a conference room — which is a hassle as the ratio of conference rooms to employees isn’t great.
    My question: Sometimes when I’m meeting with people it is just one person who has an office. Is it okay to just schedule it for their office or is that invasive? Usually I just book a conference room but was wondering at the etiquette of that the other day when I was struggling to find a conference room slot and the other person has an office.

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      I totally just schedule meetings in Outlook and under “Location” but “Bob’s Office.” Unless you need a projector or something, it’s nice not to take up a conference room. If you’re not sure, put in the meeting invite “Hi Bob, thought we could just meet in your office for this. If you’d prefer a room let me know.” No one has ever had an issue with me doing that.

    2. LQ*

      I think in cases like that it’s entirely ok to schedule in their office. It’s an “I’ll come to you” and I do it all the time. I have my own office now, so for folks who don’t have one I’ll schedule it here, but usually I schedule for other’s offices to make it easier for them.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Yeah… just book it for their office. In the location “Bob’s office” or “I’ll join you in your office”. It’s going to look more weird when someone else who’s been fighting to get a conference room walks by and sees you and Bob in a 12 person conference room when they know Bob has an office.

      If you still feel unsure about it, just ask. “Hey Bob, I’m going to schedule time for us to meet next week. Your office ok?”

      1. JaneB*

        I love when meetings are in my office – I get 10-15 minutes more work time, don’t have the added stress of working out where room BX37a is, working out what papers I need to take with me etc…

  91. Snow Drift*

    Do you/should you include career-adjacent creative projects on your LinkedIn or on your resume? How do you decide?

    For example, would you want to know that graphic artist working in a marketing department has also illustrated a children’s book? Or would you care if a music therapist had a song of theirs purchased and recorded by a pop artist?

    1. Kathenus*

      For the two examples you list I’d say yes. But if you were applying for a musical therapist position I probably wouldn’t include illustrating a children’s book. I don’t think it would be considered wrong if you did, in that case but I don’t think it would help. I wouldn’t include creative hobbies, like say knitting or writing (if unpublished), though, but the two that you mention above would be completely appropriate for a related field, in my opinion.

  92. Phoenix Programmer*

    My dress shoes are looking a bit worse for wear. A button is missing in the side and they are now starting to smell. They are only 1 year old though. Still professional if I deoderize or new shoe time?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Maybe new show if the missing button is obvious, but imo deodorizing shoes is like washing clothes – you do it as general maintenance, you don’t buy new pairs of pants every time they need cleaned, why would you buy new shoes?

    2. Maya Elena*

      Put them in the freezer for 24 hours, see if that helps with the odor. Helped my sneakers.
      The button can probanly be put back on at a shoemaker’s, whom you can often find in large malls.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      New shoe time. So especially if you are wearing them really regularly, it is important to buy new shoes regularly. The soles break down, you get less support, and it’s terrible for your back. Seriously, when I started buying new shoes more regularly my back pain got so much better.

      Depending on the type of shoe, you may be able to put new insoles in them, which would also be good. Takes care of the smell (which is all the sweat in the insole), gets you back to a place with good support, and then if you can put a button back on (or depending on how it looks, just remove the button from the other shoe). That would be a good interim. But seriously, new shoes are important for your back health.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      If you can, buy 2 pairs of dress shoes. Alternate days between the two. This airs out one pair and the shoes will last longer than two pairs bought serially.

  93. chidog*

    I had a grueling 9-month job search after college because I was adamant about staying in my hometown. I just wasn’t emotionally ready to leave and I also wanted to save up $$ before moving elsewhere. My hometown job search in my field was horrible with maybe 1-2 new job postings a week…

    Now I’m nearing the 1-year mark at my job and due to some personal circumstances I really want to leave town. I have a lot of savings and I’ve been sending out resumes to jobs in the city I want to go to for three months. However, no bites and I’m worried that I’ll end up staying here for another year.

    So what do you guys think? Suck it up and stay and keep sending out resumes or move and continue the search as a local candidate.

    1. Grace Less*

      i Don’t think the “local candidate” issue is a problem. You can get a prepaid phone or a google voice account to appear local, if you think it strengthens your candidacy. Don’t move until you are confident in the move.

  94. Me*

    My manager has no respect for other people and treats us like toddlers. I’ve mentioned him on here once before, now my coworker has left without another job lined up because Manager is so horrible. We are hiring for the position and Manager was giving me an update about the process: he found some good candidates, that I will of course be included in the group interviews and that my opinion is valued, that he created and sent a TEST (!?!!!) to the top candidates. And ended the conversation with, “Oh, and I’m planning on hiring [temp].”

    Clearly he has way too much time on his hands (and he is notoriously lazy). I understand that you have to do the song and dance of the hiring process even if you want someone in particular, but creating a test, for adults, in a non-entry-level position when it doesn’t matter what they do, you are hiring your person that you want anyway. I’m not sure if there is even a question here. Just. Ugh.

    Wait, I thought of a question. I have been interviewing internally and I am struggling over what to say about why I want to leave my current position. Honestly, with my former manager, I would have stayed a good 5-10 years but it’s only been 1.5. I was in another position here for 2 years and I wanted to go back to this work. I don’t want to lie, but I an OK with fudging :).

  95. Environmental Compliance*

    Next week we will have additional equipment testing needed for compliance, our new management company’s EHS audits, several other inspections, and a few new reports & applications going out. I’m starting to call it Hell Week with all the crap that keeps getting added. Plus, our facility budget will come out that week, which has been a giant Pain In My Ass, and Accounting Person is still very behind in paying our water, Internet, etc, etc bills. So that’ll be real fun when all the Head Honchos are here next week, and I’m really hoping one of them takes an interest in why this is a continual problem.

    I’ve had a couple thoughts bouncing around in my brain for the past couple days…

    1. The new management company (who oversees several different facilities in different industries, we are the only one in our industry in this group) apparently wants us to join in on compliance calls once a month. These are 2 hours long, and will just consist of updates on each facility. We aren’t subject to the same regulations as these facilities, and it won’t be a discussion of “hey this interesting thing came up, this is what we did”, it’s “hey yeah this piece of equipment broke. We fixed it. Yay us”. I would like to push back on this (heavy handed) request and decline monthly participation, especially since in the invite itself it’s very clearly laid out as for the benefit of Random Higher Up (who doesn’t have any sort of power over any of these people invited to the call) so RHU is kept
    “updated”. Is it inappropriate of me to push back and say if I have the time in my workload to attend, I will attempt, but otherwise, I will not attend? This meeting is on top of writing a mini-report for the call, and several other 1hr plus meetings about the same topics.

    2. Would it be petty of me to start keeping a count of how many orientations I do (that are not within my work scope) for someone else (who should be doing them)? Basically, I’m fine with covering for this person if they are indeed actually needing me to (like dr’s appointments, vacation, etc) but I’m getting a little fed up with the constant covering for them when they just simply are MIA/taking their 5th 30+ minute smoke break of the day and no one knows where they are, so I am summoned… which is about 75% of the time I do the (federally required) orientations.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Not petty at all. Not petty to route them back to the Smokemeister, either, since you don’t have time, you’ve already taken 12 orientations for him and now you’re getting behind and need to get caught up.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Smokemeister made me giggle.

        Earlier I went out to do my sampling….truck’s gone. Where is truck that we are supposed to share? Nowhere I saw within the plant. Where is Smokemeister? Probably with said truck, since the only other person that uses it I knew had already left for the day.

        Thank everything that is good in the world that I managed to convince Higher Ups that we needed additional vehicles available, especially since part of my sampling is a good mile off the site.

        I’m a little at BEC-level with this individual on many different facets. I am only the E of EHS, I am not the HS, and if they want me to do SM’s job too, I would like part of the paycheck, please and thank you.

  96. Emetophobe*

    This is kind of weird, but my anxiety is flaring up lately and starting to affect my work (and there are work issues affecting my anxiety, sigh). One of the manifestations is fairly sever emetophobia/obsessing about getting sick or seeing other people get sick. I’m working on it, but it’s such a weird and frustrating problem to have! A few letters here have addressed people getting sick in the office, so I’m wondering if anyone else could share stories about times they or someone they work with got sick. It sounds weird, but it’s honestly helpful to read through stories of what happened to other people and how they dealt with it, because it gives me something concrete to think about and plan on, beyond my brain just flaring up into “this awful thing will happen and your life will be ruined!”

    Also, if anyone has personally dealt with this and has some advice I would love it. I’ve had anxiety issues at times in the past, but never this specific problem, and I’ve actually lost weight from struggling to eat at times.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      How’s your self-care doing? Are you hydrating with regular amounts of water every day? Do you get to bed at a set time every night? Hows the food? Are you eating vegetables, especially raw veggies?
      One of my personal favorites when I feel crappy is to change my sheets earlier than usual. Many times I feel better the next morning, just from sleeping on clean sheets. By feeling crappy, I mean I can just be thinking, “I might get sick in a bit” so I change the sheets.

      I do other things such as scrub the toilet, sinks and tub- the things that I touch frequently and rely on them to be clean.
      I hope you don’t think my answer is minimizing or disrespectful. I take it very seriously when someone says they are concerned about getting sick. I have seen it too many times where they do actually get sick later on. I do understand that you are saying this is part of a bigger issue. However, human beings are suppose to run intuitive, it’s necessary for our survival and our quality of life. Some of this could very well be real. I see nothing wrong with ramping up your self-care as part of your response to this concern.

  97. Shortie*

    I recently put in my notice at work with nothing lined up, and it feels great. I’ve been thinking about it and saving for it for a long time–could last for literally years and years and years–but still worried I would feel trepidation after pulling the plug. I don’t. Looking forward to taking a break for a few months and then finding the head space to find something new!

      1. Shortie*

        Thanks for your well wishes! I have never had a break from full time work since my teenage years (and I am definitely no longer a teenager), so am really looking forward to it. Friends keep asking if I’ll be bored. No, I’ve got decades of neglected house projects. :-)

  98. Dreamboat Annie*

    I am considering making a move for the last 5-10 years of my career. I’m a software developer working for 20+ years, but my career has not had an upward trajectory due to lack of confidence and depression/anxiety.
    The last 10 years I’ve been in two small IT shops, and I’ve allowed my income and skills to fall behind. Most of my projects have been 1 developer, with rare projects needing 2. I do get good reviews consistently.
    I’m working on improving my tech skills, but I just don’t have experience w large scale applications or even medium sized teams that it seems like it would take to get a job making more. I see ads or Glassdoor salaries showing developers w 3 years of experience making more than I do. But also listings for smaller companies w devs making less.
    I could stay where I am for 5 more years and be vested w a pension (but wouldn’t get monthly payments for a while). Any advice?

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      I hear two issues. Inter-related, but… because I’m in somewhat the same place in some ways, I’ll share my opinion.

      1) Your career trajectory…is it an issue? You are where you are. Rather than thinking about what you “should” be making and comparing yourself to others (which can be a way to beat yourself up)… you may want to re-frame your thinking. You are actually doing well, in many ways, given what’s been going on in the past… depression/anxiety and lack of self-confidence are big dragons to slay. You’ve done well despite those twins to battle. You have a job you seem to like, you are working on your skills, and you get GOOD reviews. They like you and appreciate you at “not a toxicjob.” Don’t let the negative comparison with others’ salaries, make you feel bad about a job if you like it and it is working out for you. (In part, I’m noting this because you state you don’t have the expereince to get a job making more… yet you are making this comparison).

      So keep working on those skills… but don’t let “should” be the only factor to drive you away from a safe and good place that you seem to be happy at, under the guise of “should make more.” For those of us with depression, showing up at work and keeping the good job we have is a great victory.

      If you decide to switch jobs, like switching relationships – it is usually can be a combination of factors (unless you have a deal-breaker – but you didn’t reference any?). So keep evaluating but don’t hinge it all on “should make more….”

      2) your retirement… this could be more important than today’s “I should make more.” You need to get on your company’s /the website for the planning tools / educate yourself on the pension – and make sure you are fully informed and knowledgeable. There are not many pensions any more (at least not around here!). With only 5 years to go to get one, in an IT career with only 5-10 years left in your work career, a pension can be invaluable to your future and should be seriously taken into account.

      I’m vested, with just 4 years to go for my full SS, in an IT world… and so I am new to this and may only hit a few of the points. I just found out what my full-at-retirement-age pension is… and was so (pleasantly) surprised. It is life-changing. Instead of hunched over my keyboard, going blind from the blue light, at age 75… I’m going to be able to have an adequate, modest life in a lower cost of living area. Amazing.

      The value of my pension was NOT on my radar when I was calculating the value of my salary. My Cadillac health care benefits were… but somehow, I didn’t realize that I had the equivalent of social security payments being contributed for me. You may be surprised at how your salary really looks when you add in the present value of those contributions.

      So switching to another job right now… when you could possibly have a lifetime of pension payments in your hand in just a few years… might not be wise.

      I blew a lot of my life being too depressed and having such low self-worth that I was completely broke. Being intelligent doesn’t always have anything to do with earning power. I’m proof.

      But… for you… with just 5 years from retirement – in a job that you get great reviews at – earning and getting vested in a pension could be a great gift.

      Please do some research. Also, consider asking some pension questions tomorrow in the weekend thread, because there are lots of financially savvy people in this hive. (there have been good comments in previous weekend threads – I have several retirement books I plan to read I ordered based on some recommendations a few weeks ago)

      Wishing you well.

      1. Dreamboat Annie*

        NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser, I tried to answer twice, not sure what happened.

        Thanks so much for the detailed thoughts and info. You’ve hit on a lot of my stuff (comparing to others, etc.)

        I have done lots of number crunching on my pension. I could try to get a job at another agency (and keep the pension), but am afraid I might be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

  99. LG*

    Tips on getting a title bump? I work at a medium sized private university, and have been in the position for a little over a year. Our university has very clear job title hierarchies (teapot artist, designer 1, designer 2, teapot manager, etc). I was hired as a teapot artist (totally correctly – I was transitioning from classroom teaching to university work), and spent a chunk of last year learning pretty proactively on the job. My manager and I get along well, and she’s recently been asking me for my take on certain bigger judgment calls and decisions within our department. Looking at the descriptions, I think I now am doing the job and working at the autonomy level of teapot designer 1 (a one step change). Performance reviews are in April (I’ll have been in my position for over 18 months at that point). Do I lay the groundwork sooner? What’s the best way to launch that conversation? (My manager has been really transparent with me that I should have negotiated my offer, so I think she’s opened the door to me having these types of conversations pretty nicely). Thoughts?

    1. Tara S.*

      Your boss sounds like my last boss, who was fantastic. It sounds like it would be easy to bring this up with her now. “I wanted to thank you for your support in helping me develop here and take on new projects. I know formal reviews are not until April, but I wanted to ask you if there’s anything I can do between now and then to help lay the groundwork for moving to a Teapot Designer 1. I think my duties have expanded to fit that role, but I wanted to check in with you.” Your boss can hopefully outline how likely this is to happen, and if there’s anything extra you need to be doing.

      (Cautionary tale: even though my boss was the best and helped make a case for me to grandboss about my moving from an Admin II to Admin III, grandboss still wouldn’t go for it. In my case, it was for the best because it made me apply to other jobs and I ended up making a move to another department with way more pay and room to grow, so even if it doesn’t work out, there is still hope! )

    2. LQ*

      I’d check your HR (not with HR but like if you have an internal website skim through it a little to see what the rules are, I’d specifically look for reclassification or Hay study just so you have a little background) and then if you have a one on one with her, especially if it’s after a big win/big judgement call that went well, ask what would need to be done to move reclassify your role to align with the work you are doing. Or what other work you’d have to do to fully fit within the designer 1 classification.

  100. swingbattabatta*

    I just found out that my second pregnancy in as many years isn’t going to survive (and I’m after the 12 week mark). My husband and I are completely devastated, and I’ve just been staring at my computer blankly for the last few days. I really want to ask for a few days off when it comes time to have all of the medical procedures done, as I’m not going to be able to function beyond crying in bed, but the nature of my job is that you are responsive to emails unless you are completely incapacitated (same goes with vacation – unless you are international, you are reachable). I don’t know if I can make up a plausible excuse for being completely offline for more than a day, maybe two, max.

    To complicate things, my company is possibly being acquired by another company, and if my employer caught wind of the fact that we are trying to have a baby, I’m certain that it would negatively impact my pending job offer. One senior VP is in charge of negotiating individual offers/packages with the new company, and I can absolutely this working against me in the long run.

    Anyone have any good language to use that clearly indicates that I’m not available for a couple of days, without getting into any details?

    1. LCL*

      Since your office culture requires an excuse, try this one.
      ‘I will be having medical work done and will be out of it on pain medication. You don’t want me talking to anyone about company business while I am impaired, there could be unplanned complications.’

      I’m sorry about the loss of your pregnancy.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I don’t think she needs to add anything about being impaired. A simple ” I am having a medical procedure done on X date and will be unavailable to do anything work related until Y date. ”

        Very sorry OP, I hope you are able to take the time off you deserve.

        1. blackcat*

          In this environment, it might be wise to say, “The doctors have told me I’ll be totally out of it for at least X time frame.” Most people would interpret “totally out of it” to mean “hopped up on drugs” but it’s closer to the truth.

    2. Rey*

      I am so sorry for your loss. Sending the biggest Jedi hugs your direction. Could something like, “My doctor has said that/requires that I don’t do any work for at least three days”? I mean, that could be your mental health doctor, but still true…

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      First of all, I am so, so sorry.

      As for taking the time off, I said I was having stomach surgery and was on painkillers. Not just that, but I wouldn’t be able to sit up/sit at a computer. No one questioned me.

    4. TechWorker*

      I don’t know if it’s the same in your country, but in mine (UK) it would be illegal for you to lose your job in the transfer due to your pregnancy.

      1. swingbattabatta*

        I’m sure I wouldn’t lose my job, but I also know I’d be penalized in a bunch of indirect ways that are hard to prove. No pushing for maternity leave as part of the package, accepting a lower salary on my behalf because they know I might be out for some time after the baby is born, all of the little things.

        That being said, thanks everyone for your thoughts. I’m going to give the vague “medical procedure”/painkillers statement a try.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you think your doc is receptive then explain to him what you have said here. Maybe he will be willing to write you a vague note. I know some docs will even ask what I want the note to say, word for word.

    5. Nita*

      I’m very sorry for your loss… if you need to explain that you won’t be available, might it help to say something like “I will be having surgery and will not be able to respond to emails during my recovery”? I hope that will be enough to get your boss to back off.

    7. Not Gary, Gareth*

      Good advice in the comments above, and I would add this: I think the phrase “completely incapacitated” is totally reasonable and appropriate to use here.

      As in, “I am having a necessary medical procedure and will be incapacitated for X days while I recover.” You don’t owe anyone any kind of explanation beyond that. If anyone pushes for details you can simply say “Just a standard procedure that requires some recovery time, nothing to worry about!” Any pushing beyond that would be incredibly rude and should be paid no mind at all. “That’s personal information, I’m sure you understand why I wouldn’t want to talk about it at work.” “That’s a really personal question, why do you ask?”

      I’m a big fan of ‘why do you ask,’ since it shifts the focus back on the busybody and Returns Awkwardness To Sender. Bonus points if they explain with “I’m just worried about you/hoping it’s not contagious/wondering if it’s the same thing Fergus had” etc etc – to which you can just cheerfully reply “No cause for concern, nothing contagious, I’ll be back by Tuesday!” and quickly exit the conversation. It’s almost impossible for someone to continue pushing after you’ve addressed the ‘reason’ for the question, and if they do it’ll be pretty obvious to anyone watching that they’re the ones being rude, not you.

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this, and even more so that we live in a world where something so heartwrenching is also a cause to worry about your professional future. F*** the patriarchy, and my heart is with you.

  101. Ali G*

    You guys I just had my 60-day check-in with my boss and HR and apparently I am killing it! I am just so happy. This job is crazy cool, the people I work with are awesome, I am paid well, work flexible schedule and have the best commute of my life. After OldToxicJob with BossFromHell and not working full time for a year, I really just can’t believe how I landed. The best part is, while I am doing work I love and is in my field, for the first time (like in 15 years) I work a job where people can leave work at work. There aren’t emergencies that need my attention on a Sunday! People leave their laptops in the office! I don’t have a work phone! I don’t even have to put my cell # in my email signature! It’s like I entered another dimension and I’m never leaving.

  102. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Communication issues. I’m having issues with coworkers and boss who can’t seem to use a “yes” or “no” or other declarative statement. Sometimes I’ll even get a literal “K” in response to my emails — just the one letter. What’s that supposed to mean? “OK, I’ve seen your email and will get back to you with a complete sentence later.” “OK I’ve looked it over and it’s approved.” “K is the only letter that is working on my keyboard at the moment; I need help.” ?????? But because I’m not in charge of the budget or project I feel I need a direct answer that isn’t in need of interpretation like “Approved” or “change these specific things” so I spend a lot of time chasing them down for clarification or actionable feedback, or just waiting for further information, and then they seem frustrated with me. But then on the other hand, I’m a very direct person and maybe that’s a me problem to work out. I like my coworkers and boss by the way — this is a great place to work — so I’m hoping for magic words on how to fix a minor issue that’s driving me batty. Anyone have suggestions or experience?

    1. fposte*

      Can you word your emails so that “K” is clearly an acceptable answer to what you’re asking? “Unless you tell me that this draft isn’t going to work, I’ll move forward with it.”

    2. Admin of Sys*

      After the first email, send a followup along the lines of ‘Thanks – unless I hear otherwise, I’m going to do implement the llama grooming change next week.” Or you can even make the first email more along the lines of “I think we need to make a change to the llama grooming process by moving the sheep ahead of the llamas. If you have any issue or concerns, please say so – otherwise, I’ll get the changes implemented next week.”
      I usually work with the 2 email system when I have had managers like that, if only to give some leeway so if the manager does have an immediate hard ‘no’ they have an opportunity to express it before I assume a yes. But for the most part, it sounds like your manager is either trusting your judgement or wanting to be noncommittal in case of cya. Either way, sending a ‘speak now or forever hold your peace’ message gets you permission to enact the changes.

  103. Third username*

    So we offered a job to an excellent candidate (our team of 2 definitely needs more help), and she was scheduled to start Monday. She emailed our boss over the Thanksgiving weekend to say she couldn’t come in Monday (apparently she gave a reason) and asked if she could instead start in a few weeks. My boss pulled the offer and instead offered it to our number 2 pick. (Also a good choice) My boss was in a bad mood about the whole thing, so I couldn’t get details, but do you think she was right to pull the offer?

    1. LG*

      I think it depends on the reason? “My parent/spouse/child has been hospitalized” or “my spouse just got offered a great work trip in Hawaii that I want to attend” feel pretty different in terms of judgment. Obviously there is a huge spectrum between those, but if the candidate communicated “I’m kind of flaky,” then I could see your boss wanting to dodge that bullet before it affected all of you.

    2. Rebecca*

      I think that depends on what the reason was, but I have to ask – she said she could start in a few weeks? Did your boss give her enough time to give proper notice at her previous job? Maybe there were things that needed to be wrapped up there, and her boss asked her to stay a bit longer? And then offering the job to the #2 pick, OK, but wouldn’t the #2 pick need to give notice, too? Either way, someone would be starting in a few weeks if a 2 week notice was needed.

      My ex-manager once told someone if they wanted the job, they needed to quit and report on Monday AM. This was on a Friday. She said she didn’t care about notice at the other company, but man, when people quit and gave a two week’s notice, she was more than peeved about it not being long enough. So glad “ex” is in front of manager in this case.

      1. Third username*

        She doesn’t currently have a job. She left her old job a couple of months ago. My boss totally fine with the #2 choice starting in two weeks to finish up stuff with her current job.

        I’m glad you got away from your previous manager. She sounds like a nightmare!

    3. Colette*

      I think that a lot depends on the reason (and how truthful your boss judged it to be). Anything less than a death in the family or a serious illness, and I think it was good to go with your second choice.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think that she wanted to start in a few weeks instead of an extra day or two is the problem. It’s somewhat obviously not an “emergency” in the sense that she or a family member was unexpectedly sick on a Monday. I’m also assuming a bit that when she was hired she had to give her two weeks notice to her current employer and that your boss has been waiting for that notice period. So adding a few more weeks, with no warning, feels especially onerous. I think your boss was right but I don’t know how close the #2 choice was compared to the #1 choice.

    5. Delphine*

      Depends on her reason, especially if she was an excellent candidate. I’d also say if she “asked” did your boss tell her no and ask her to come in on Monday as planned? Or did she just pull the offer immediately?

    6. The New Wanderer*

      It seems like it would either have to have been an emergency (in which case I would say pulling the offer was too harsh) or a really poor judgment call and/or frivolous reasoning on the candidate’s behalf (in which case good call by the boss). Anything else should have been handled during the negotiation phase when determining start date.

      Unless your boss is typically punitive, I’m leaning toward assuming the candidate-gave-a-disqualifyingly-frivolous-reason if the boss is fine with #2 starting in a few weeks anyway.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I would say it depends on the reason – for an emergency situation (serious illness, death of a close family member, suddenly got a slot for a surgery, house burnt down/flooded, that sort of thing) I would be sympathetic, but if the reason is something non-essential or that could easily have been brought up when accepting the position I’d be a lot less likely to let it go by. I imagine the fact that she emailed this about the next working day, which was supposed to be her first day of work, played a factor too – at that point she’s right on the edge of asking for three weeks unpaid leave in her first month on the job.

  104. Nancy*

    This is less of a question and just more a cautionary tale.

    I was driving home from work and my boss called me. Now, I’m salaried and he is very kind to let me leave early, so that I can try and beat the heavy traffic since I live in the next city, so I never mind answering the phone, email or text from him outside of normal hours. My car happens to have bluetooth, so I connected him to the speakers in my car so I could drive more safely. He had a few questions about teapot accounts, but at one point he was looking up something to ask me and we got off topic to the current traffic situation. There has been a section of road (both coming and going) on my commute that has been one lane for almost two months and the thing that drives me up the wall is that people know it is there, but will still wait until the last minute to merge over, often making it dangerous. My boss knows this, so he was telling me that he had been one of those people over his holiday travels. At the same time I was actually approaching this construction piece of road and as he was telling me the story a guy zoomed past me and cut over in front of me at the very last second causing me to slam on my breaks and also causing my filter to go off as I very clearly said, F*** you to the car who cut me off. I had completely forgot my boss was on the bluetooth! THANKFULLY, my boss has a very good sense of humor and has let a curse word slip now and again in the office, so she was not offended by my words. Of course, I had to reassure him I was not saying that to him and his story. He actually found it quite funny because he had never really heard me curse before.

    Moral of this story, it is probably safer to not have bosses or employees on the phone while driving. I was really surprised how quickly my filter came off and my mind completely forgot about my boss on the phone. My mind went into survival mode of trying not to die and everything else was not important.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I know it wasn’t the point of your story, but studies have shown late merges are better for traffic. There’s an NYT article from a couple years ago. . .”Why Last-Second Lane Mergers Are Good for Traffic”.

      I was always a sit in the slow lane and wait my turn person, but hey, if the studies say go to the front, it’s my civic duty to go to the front.

      Also – glad your boss is a personable woman who gets traffic aggravations. I haven’t had that happen myself, but I have flipped people off near my office and then sweated about it until I was sure they weren’t also going to my office.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The last minute zipper merge phenomenon is covered in the book Traffic, which I found really interesting. But I think the caveats are, both lanes treat it like a proper zipper merge where the merge part happens at the end, not all along the lane that’s ending (leading to extra slow-downs to accommodate those merges), and inconsiderate drivers forcing their way in and cutting people off at any point do not contribute to the efficiency.

        Also this is why my mother doesn’t like talking to me when I’m driving (hands-free/via car speakers) – I usually don’t swear (if on the phone) but I will tend to narrate the traffic situation when it gets stressful for me. :-/

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      We have a strict no cell use driving policy at my job, so luckily this isn’t a concern for me… otherwise it totally would be me letting the effenheimers fly. Now driving with coworkers in the car is another story… which is why I try to find an excuse not to be the driver if I can help it.

    3. Alice*

      I’m glad that you didn’t have an accident and that your relationship was not damaged.
      That said, it’s dangerous to use cell phones while driving. Yes, handsfree is better, in terms of not having to look down to dial the number or interact with the screen. But that’s like saying vaping is less dangerous than smoking. True, but not the whole picture.
      Even with handsfree, your attention is at best split between the conversation and driving, and reaction time is slower. It’s not the same as conversing with passengers in the car (who tend to pause conversation at intersections etc) and it’s not the same as the radio (listening to the radio is passive while talking is active).
      I sincerely hope that you never experience an accident while talking in the phone (because of a slower reaction time to someone else’s dangerous driving behavior), and I hope you never cause an accident. Refraining from using the phone while driving will make you and others safer. Good luck.

  105. EmmaBird*

    Hi All! How do you stay in touch (professionally) with coworkers from a previous job when you had a toxic relationship with your manager/boss?

    Bit of background, I worked in my previous department at my university for five years– just transferred in October. My boss was universally known as someone that is difficult to deal with. Prone to yelling fits/severe mood swings/etc., but since she’d worked there for 20 years she had a lot of institutional knowledge and always managed to behave well for brief periods when her job was on the line.

    Anyway, it’s looking like dropping in to visit anytime soon would be a bad idea as I’ve just heard from a close friend in a third department that she’s taking my departure extremely personally. I’m connected with most of the people that I’d like to stay in touch with on twitter and facebook– but I’m just curious if any of you have an active strategy for keeping people informed. Do you send out a periodic email with updates? I also have a portfolio website (I’m a designer) with a blog that I could use to publicly post updates, as well. I regret not staying in touch better with coworkers from my first post-college job and would like to change that this time around, especially since I was there for five years.

    1. Rebecca*

      My ex Pointy Haired Boss sent me a Facebook friend request! OMG, no. I haven’t replied. I think I’m just going to delete it. I stay in touch with former coworkers because they weren’t the problem!

    2. Auntie Social*

      The holidays are coming up, you can sort of combine a “good wishes and this is what I’ve been doing and where I am now and I’d love to keep in touch” message.

    3. StellaBella*

      I have emails of my cool colleagues, and we are in fact meeting up next week for lunch. We had a very toxic non-profit boss who is/was not just difficult/toxic but also bordering on very abusive – she is still causing problems for one of the colleagues who’s recently left, even.

      LinkedIn – and email, and maybe a quarterly lunch outside of old work office area, too. Sharing stuff on your LinkedIn broadly with your portfolio is also a good idea, I think.

  106. Normally a Lurker*

    This isn’t a question so much as a little bit of a brag. I just had my year end review with my new manager – and it went GREAT! He gave me a couple of things to work on, which are legit – and also hold overs from my previous not great manager who was very micro-manager, among other things.

    Anyway, it feels pretty good to be in a role in which my boss likes my work and doesn’t feel the need to hold my hand on everything. :)

    He even wants to help me make this role more integrated with what I want to do long term!

    Anyway, I couldn’t think of a more appropriate place to share this – so here it is :D

  107. Rebecca*

    Writing from the perspective of an older office worker cog in the USA.

    This morning’s post about sick time prompted me to just say this: I wish there were more laws on the books to protect workers and provide for legitimate sick time so people aren’t afraid of losing their jobs if they can’t work due to illness, and even paid sick time so people don’t feel compelled to come to work with the flu or other contagious illnesses because missing one shift can mean the difference between making rent or not. I got into it with my mother over this, she’s over 80, has been retired for years, and why it’s just terrible that people come to work with bad colds, obviously sick, etc. and expose their germs to others, especially when they handle food. I always remind her that (1) probably no paid sick time, (2) if they do call off, they’re made to feel responsible for getting someone to cover, (3) they may even lose their jobs, (4) missing a few shifts can mean not having enough money to pay bills, (5) may have no vacation time to draw, etc. and that the USA isn’t really keen on making changes as a whole to support the average working person. Yes, changes are happening, slowly, and in some places, but as a whole, decent paid time off in this country seems to be so hit and miss. People are not machines. They need rest and downtime to rejuvenate and recharge.

    At my job, we have 5 sick days per year. The employee handbook says outright we are not expected to take this time unless we are sick or have a medical appointment. They don’t roll over or accumulate, so everyone ignores this little missive and takes them as extra vacation days. Vacation time is pretty stingy too, with most people receiving 10 days per year. One of my coworkers has a minor medical issue, and she has to call off every 3 weeks or so, maybe a half day, maybe not at all, maybe a full day, and she was getting a hard time from our manager, so she applied and was granted FMLA, and had to do this because she felt she was in real danger of losing her job. Again, it’s a butts in seat for no good reason office job, not public facing, jobs need to be done but not on a strict schedule, really, a little flexibility would be humane here.

    At my first job, there was no sick time, very limited vacation time, and if you were sick and couldn’t drag yourself to work, you were assessed attendance points, and 12 points in a rolling calendar year meant you were terminated. If you missed 2 days (think having the flu, or stomach issues with throwing up, diarrhea, etc.), and you were out the 3rd consecutive day, you had to get a doctor’s excuse. We had terrible insurance, so that meant you missed 3 day’s pay AND had to pay for an office visit when the doctor could get you in, so you’d have a note to get back to work. This was a crappy office job. People went to work when very sick, me included, fevers, sore throats, flu, all of it, to avoid missing pay and accumulating those points. This only applied to non-exempt workers, so the exempt workers simply loathed us openly when everyone was sick. Oh, such fun times. Looking back, I was young and stronger then, so I suffered through it. I could never do that now.

    And really, can we please cut the ties between being employed at a larger company and affordable health insurance? Can you imagine if car insurance, home owner’s insurance, life insurance, flood insurance, all of it, was tied to being employed at a company with more than X workers? I remember getting paperwork about COBRA when our company was purchased by another company, in case we were let go and wanted to keep our insurance plan. This was in 2010, and for employee/spouse coverage, the COBRA payment would have exceeded my unemployment check amount. Even with the ACA, costs are still pretty high. I had high hopes of getting a decent plan for less than my paycheck deduction through my employer, and that hope was quickly dashed when I went out into the marketplace and priced insurance for me and my then husband, at our ages (over 50). I kept my employer’s insurance, and I’m really grateful for that option, but not everyone has that. It doesn’t seem fair.

    I really hope to see some changes. I don’t know what the answer is. I just wish we could be more kind as a rule, I guess. Thanks for listening to my rant.

    1. Normally a Lurker*

      My own two cents on this – this starts WAY earlier than work. Really, stop giving kids awards for perfect attendance. That feeds into this mentality from day 1.

      (Side not to this, I have a friend who has a kid that is never sick – luck of the draw and she knows it – mostly bc that is NOT the case with her younger. She has gone to bat on this multiple times and REFUSES to let her child receive a perfect attendance award from school ever for something that is more luck than anything else.)

      Let people be sick. Let them take off work. Pay them for it. Don’t force kids to decide between an award and rest.

      Let people be human.

      1. Justin*

        You know, I didn’t miss a day of school due to sickness from 6th grade to 12th grade. I really was rarely sick if at all.

        But I was having some gradually worsening mental health issues, so the “show up even if you’re not feeling right” mentality got me to just.keep.plugging.along without treatment for far too long.

        I was talented enough at “being a student” to excel, so i just never thought it was a problem until I was still in need of help at age 30 and my wife was like, dude.

        So, yeah, not just physically. If you aren’t right, take care of yourself.

    2. 653-CXK*

      When I was let go back in May, I declined COBRA from by ExJob (full disclosure: I worked in health insurance) explicitly because it was mega-expensive (close to $700 a month for a single person!), which would also have eaten a good size of my unemployment check. I went to the exchange and pay exactly half of COBRA just to have that safety net.

  108. AKJ*

    I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that my job is going to be boring for the foreseeable future, and my options are to accept that or start looking for something else.
    When I told my supervisor I didn’t have enough work to do, she told me (nicely) that I needed to figure it out for myself. I am an assistant, and I do work for about six other people, who are mostly new-ish and eager to learn things. I am supposed to ask them to delegate work, except they don’t know how to delegate yet and I am not in a position where I can make them – I really can’t correct them or demand anything of them, I can only let them know I’m available.

    A clear policy regarding tasks and delegation would really help, but I have no power to make that happen, and every time I suggest it, it goes nowhere. I’m getting so frustrated, because I feel like I am being tasked with something I can’t do, and so my choices are either to accept this (and be bored 90% of the time, and watch my skills decay) or look for another job. I really want to stay where I am, because I love my co-workers and everything else about the job is perfect (commute, benefits, hours, pay, etc.) and I really, really don’t want to go job hunting again. Any tips on how to accept things you can’t change, or am I out of options here?

    1. valentine*

      Look at it as employee-led learning and self-care time. What skills can you learn and practice? What can you read? What can you get done during this time?

  109. Anonymous Trans Guy*

    I’m a trans masculine person (which means that I was assigned female at birth, and lived as a girl/woman for much of my life) but I’ve recently begun to take steps to appear more masculine and will eventually medically transition (which for me, will mean taking male hormones and getting top surgery/a mastectomy). Right now, I wear a binder/compression undershirt at work to flatten my chest. I love my binder and how it makes me look, it makes me feel super confident!

    However, it’s a really uncomfortable garment, and not really intended to be worn for more than 6-8 hours. If you’re wearing it for several hours, it’s advised to remove it for several minutes and do some stretches to give your ribs a chance to relax.

    Right now, I’m spending 5-10 minutes of my lunch break every day topless in a bathroom stall, stretching and doing some deep-breathing exercises. When I’m done, I put my binder and shirt back on, and go about my day, but I feel pretty awkward being half-naked at work, even in a stall!

    Does anybody have any suggestions or alternate solutions, given that I have to remove the binder and do my stretches? I don’t want to commandeer the nursing mothers’ room, because it’s in pretty heavy usage and I don’t want to inconvenience any new moms! I’m not yet out as a trans man at work (so people still know me as a woman and use my old name and pronouns) so I don’t know if I can ask for accommodations!

    1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

      Also, I’m pretty happy to answer any questions people might have about transness, but maybe that should wait for a weekend thread :)

    2. JennyFair*

      Hey there :)

      If there aren’t alternative locations (your office doesn’t lock, there’s no locker room to use instead, etc.), I would focus on becoming comfortable with the bathroom stall location. It’s actually not terribly odd to be changing clothes at work, which is essentially what you’re doing. Bike commuters do it all the time. Bathroom stalls are not the friendliest places, so maybe some visualization exercises to go along with the deep breathing?

      1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

        I didn’t even think about it in the context of changing to bike, and a lot of my coworkers are cyclists. That’s a really good point, thanks!

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Maybe have a really loose shirt you can change into when the binder is off? (I’m so glad the binder is working for you, but definitely keep taking breaks!) I’m thinking something like a 3 times the size you need flannel or a shapeless oversized sweatshirt – something you can swap out for in the bathroom and then change back into your more work-appropriate shirt when you’re done with your break. I knew someone did that for PT because they’d get a bit sweaty and wrinkled otherwise.

    4. Rey*

      I have never requested an accommodation, so I really don’t know what the possibilities are, but you shouldn’t have to figure this out on your own, and they can help give you some possibilities without knowing the exact nature of what you are doing. Could you talk to HR to make them aware that you need accommodations, and explain it as, “For 5-10 minutes during my lunch break, I need to remove my shirt and do some stretches as part of my ongoing medical treatment. What accommodations are available to me so this is possible? It would need to be a private space with a locked door so that I was confident that I wouldn’t be disrupted” And then wait to see what they have to say.

      1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

        I’m part of our HR team, which is contributing to my nervousness with regards to asking about accommodations. It feels too personal to talk to about the people I work with so closely, but I’d be more comfortable if it was someone my path didn’t cross with, if that makes sense? I don’t want my situation to be in the back of their mind when we’re working together on daily tasks.

        I’m sure the solution here is “it’s not a big deal, you’re just anxious,” but I’m very good at dithering!

        1. Rey*

          Not mixing with your regular coworkers makes sense, so only share the most basic information they need to provide an accommodation. If there’s one person in your office who is the most chill, or the best at maintaining confidentiality, start with them, and you could even say, “I’ve hesitated to ask for this accommodation because I didn’t want to talk about my personal stuff with someone I work with every day.” Just naming this head on might help them understand where you’re coming from and what you need (for them to never speak of it again once it’s set up or approved).

        2. ..Kat..*

          I am not trying to tell you how open to be about this at work – only you know how accepting your workplace is and how comfortable you are being open at work. That said, if I knew there was an openly trans person in HR, I would feel better about my workplace.

    5. EmmaBird*

      I’m not trans myself so my advice is somewhat limited in that arena but in my workplace the nursing mother’s room is actually known as the “wellness room” and is opened up for other activities just like what you’re describing. Basically, anything private that you wouldn’t feel comfortable doing in a bathroom. Any chance you could quietly help lead a culture shift with that space? Maybe you could frame it to your boss/HR person as you needing a space to perform some medically recommended stretches for 5-10 minutes during the day and you’d like to use that room with the understanding you’d cede it to a nursing mom if she needed it. 5-10 minutes is an extremely reasonable request, even in a highly trafficked room.

      Not sure how conventional this is but there’s a posted schedule for our wellness room for the nursing moms which really helps with this. It allows other people to duck in to do whatever private thing they need to do between those times without worrying about interrupting someone’s designated time. That might be another thing to advocate for.

      1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

        I should definitely ask about the nursing mothers’ room. I’m not sure how flexible its usage is (I’m relatively new to this office), but there was an issue with people eating in there and leaving a big mess. Smaller uses might be ok, though!

        And I love the idea about trying to schedule use. I don’t know if I can push for that change, but it’s worth about talking about.

        1. Friday*

          Pumping mom here, so SOLIDARITY about how much fun it is to be topless at work! Definitely ask about the wellness room. If there are openings in the schedule then you’re all set! At my work I share the pumping room with two other women, one of whom pumps the average amount of two people (3x/day one hour each time). We maintain our schedule by being mad diligent about showing up on time and exiting the room on time. So you may find yourself leaving a meeting abruptly to work your way into this kind of schedule, but it’ll give you the relief you need each day.

    6. Chuck*

      Can I just pop in to give a fellow trans guy high five? And also say that the stretches are a great idea…I didn’t think about that, I just stuck a sports bra at my desk in case I *really* needed to ditch the binder. (No advice to give, unfortunately, as I am also not out at work.)

  110. Excess of Joy*

    One of my hobbies is baking/creating in the kitchen. I often bring in treats to my workplace and send some with my husband to his job as well in order to ensure they are consumed before they go bad. It hasn’t seemed to impact my being taken seriously in my job, although standard, run of the mill sexism still does. However, several times now, a male colleague will help himself to one of the treats and then comment that he wishes his wife was more like me. This makes me incredibly uncomfortable, but I usually push back a little with a comment along the lines of “Well she has a two year old and a full time job so she’s probably pretty busy.” and change the topic. However, today, the weirdness amped up even more: A different male coworker walked in, grabbed a chocolate covered pretzel and then commented that he wished his wife “cooked like [me], or cleaned, or did anything productive other than cheat on [him]” I tried to chuckle awkwardly but it came out as more of a gasp and he mumbled sorry and bolted. What the heck do I do now? Should I just stop bringing in products of my kitchen because a couple male coworkers make it weird? I’ve never had any issues with my female coworkers taking a treat and using it as an opportunity to comment on their marriage. I should note that I’m slightly junior position-wise to male coworker #1 and senior to male coworker #2. They’re both in their 30s, I’m 27. I’m friendly with both coworkers but don’t see them daily.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        “What makes you say that?” is also a good variant, but use with caution, lest you encounter one of those people would would LOVE to tell you ALL ABOUT what would make them say that.

    2. JennyFair*

      Oh man I have so many snarky responses to this. Beginning with, “Hey Bob, did you know men are allowed in kitchens these days?” and ending with “I’m sure she wishes her husband were more like [insert some famous dude’s name here].”

      But it’s probably better to go with Alison’s “Wow.”

    3. Rey*

      “I don’t get it.” Which will probably lead them to start explaining themselves, and saying it out loud will help them realize how awkward it is, and then realize that they shouldn’t have said it in the first place.

      1. valentine*

        Or they’ll mansplain whilst doubling down. I know someone who was happy to explain his racist joke, which he never shared with white people.

    4. goto 1*

      I can’t comment on the cheating comment person, but for the other one, a bright smile and a “if you want homemade cupcakes, you should totally make them, I’m sure your wife would love them!” or otherwise turning it around on him that, hey, he can be the one who bakes, helps.

      I do this to my brother-in-law…

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I love this suggestion!!

        PS, my SO is our main cook – he is a FANTASTIC cook and enjoys it, while I’m… okay and I hate it.
        We’ve been fielding irritating comments from relatives and coworkers for years. Most of the time, it seems like people just don’t think before they talk and aren’t trying to be rude. So point it out, and startle them out of it!

    6. ANon.*

      Yikes.

      For coworker #2 I think your reaction was fine. It allowed him to realize how inappropriate that comment was, and doesn’t sound like he’ll make the same mistake twice.

      For coworker #1, I know I’d personally auto-react with some self-deprecating comment said in a jokey way like, “Believe me, you really don’t!” (maybe with a quick “Eek!” or “Wow.” thrown in before to acknowledge how weird a comment it was). But I’m loving the table-turning males-can-bake-too suggestions here!

  111. Anonnow*

    How do you move on from a position that was a bad fit? I am stating a new job on Monday and this past job has been terrible for my self-esteem. The people are nice but the project changed shortly after I started to require skills I did not have. I really struggled with it and managed to do ok, but not great. My new job seems like a perfect fit for my background and skills, but I keep panicking about failing for a second time. Logically, I know that this one wasn’t really my fault (and even my boss says this) but I still worry that it will happen again.

    1. Jezebel*

      I’ve been there recently (within the past year). My 2 cents: You may have done better at your last job than you thought. I was constantly sure I was about to be fired, and my self-worth and self-esteem was in the toilet. Turns out it was just a super-dysfunctional environment, and everyone felt like they were doing a horrible job. None of us were able to talk about it at the time, but since then we’ve all opened up, and it makes me realize i wasn’t crazy. My failure at the job wasn’t a personal failure; it was systemic.

      Also: Time really does heal this particular wound. The more distance I get from my toxic job, the more I’m able to put the problems into perspective. I *do* know things. I *am* competent. There’s a reason I was hired. Time allowed me to put some distance between the strong emotions and see the actual facts. And just like bad feeling build on bad feelings, good feelings also build on good feelings — the more time you spend at this new job kicking @ss and doing strong work, the more confidence you’ll gain.

      Good luck to you. I’m happy to report I’m excelling at my new job (it’s been 6 months and I’m happier and more productive than ever before). Once you are in an environment that is well matched to your skills and full of more supportive people, you will shine.

  112. Dzhymm*

    One common anxiety I see around here is the question of how to explain why you’re leaaving your current position when you really don’t want to talk about it. My question is: how often does this question ACTUALLY come up in interviews? I can’t really recall ever being asked about this (including my current job where I WANTED to be able to tell the sordid tale but never got an opening to do so), and I’ve never asked this when I’ve been on the other side of the interview desk. Does this fall under the category of “stupid interview questions I’ve been lucky enough to dodge”? (e.g. “Tell me your greatest weakness”)

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      Yup, I got asked about it in most interviews I’ve had in my life. And I personally wouldn’t actually characterise it as stupid – it can tell an interviewer a lot about what the candidate wants in a job.
      I’ve never had interviewers pry into my answer though. A simple “My current job has me doing a lot of X and I’d like to become an expert in Y was enough.”
      It’s important to remember that you should be truthful, but you don’t have to say everything. People usually leave a job because of more than one reason – so pick the one you can spin best in an interview.

    2. ZuZu*

      I’m a recruiter and I ask every candidate why they are looking for a new position or why they left their last one. Most recruiters I know do this. It helps us understand the candidate, what they’re looking for, and whether this position would be a good fit. If they say they’re leaving because they have too much overtime hours, and I know this department requires people to work 70 hours a week, that helps me do my job well, and of course be transparent with the candidate. Especially if candidates have a jumpy resumes, I will ask them why they left every position (within reason) to try and find some trends. I want to make sure the job I’m interviewing the candidate for is a good fit, and why they’re job searching is a great way to do that.

  113. Beth Jacobs*

    Those of you that have been in the workforce for a while, can you share what the office was like before the year 2000? I just can’t imagine doing my job without the Internet and advanced word processor programs. What’s changed about the way you access information and do research? How would people collaborate on long text documents back then? What did you use to do back then that seems funny and quirky today? If you stayed in the same field, would you say your job is pretty much the same but with different tools – or is it just a concept?

    I don’t have any personal experience but I did once come upon my ExLawFirm org chart from 1998 and wash shocked that there was an admin for every two lawyers back then. There’s just one for every four now and the skills they use are quite different as well – the things they can do with MS Word make my head spin.

    1. Auntie Social*

      I had binders of ‘stolen’ documents that I thought were great (I did family law) for us to use. So my cubicle and its back wall were mostly binders, all on different topics–settlement agreements, custody, etc. We still had a full book library, of course, and someone to maintain the updates in the books.

    2. Rebecca*

      :) telefax, dual disk drive computers (8″ floppy disks when I started, then smaller ones, then 3.5″ 1 MB storage, nirvana back in the day), dot matrix printers, black background monitors with either amber or green text, DOS, Lotus 123 v 1.0, Word Star, then Word Perfect, IBM Selectric typewriters…and if you were really lucky, interchangeable type heads so you could type in a different font than Courier, that first mouse, Windows 3.1, oh wow.

      Long text documents – a clerical typed everything up, copies made, people made edits, those edits were all handwritten in and retyped by the clerical, then it was approved, or not, before word processing it was a lot of labor. People also used shorthand, and dictation machines. Before email, we had a memo system, as in, you wrote a memo, put it in someone’s physical mailbox in the mail room, they got it, replied, and sent it back to you, keeping one of the carbon copies. Multiple recipients were a bit trickier – it had to go to multiple mail boxes, so we’d put a checkmark next to our name if we’d seen it or just initial it. Faxes were fun! We had telefax, and it was expensive, so we worked out shorthand, like people texting today. >F-H1120 could mean, X factory eta Harrisburg 11/20/18, for instance.

      When I got my first word processor (word star) and I could save a template or something on a floppy disk, wow, did that ever revolutionize things! And when I discovered I could set up a template in Lotus 123 for expense reports and didn’t have to run endless calculator tapes, what a revelation. And, the endless rows of filing cabinets filled with paper started to go away, and we used microfilm to store documents back then, things that didn’t need to be physically at hand.

      I would never go back. Today it’s so much easier.

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        Wow, thanks for sharing :) it really does sound like a different world. It’s really cool to hear about, but I’m with you that I wouldn’t want it. I’m glad that most of my work is at least a bit creative. Sure, there’s still some bureaucracy (and some time sorting out computer problems :) ), but it’s infinitely better than just retyping documents over and over again!

    3. Anon From Here*

      Probably the biggest difference in collaborating is that we couldn’t just e-mail docs back and forth with this fancy new “track changes” and “markup” and “comments” and “restrict editing” stuff. In my secretarial days (starting late 1980s) we would print things out, hand them over, then get them back with edits scribbled all over them, which we’d have to open up the document in blue-background WordPerfect to edit.

      Speaking of blue background: no WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). Link to a google image search of WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS is in my handle.

      One reason why the ratio of lawyers to admins was so different is that a lot of law firms did not want their lawyers to be “wasting” time typing their own documents. Typing couldn’t be billed to the clients; typing was seen as a ladies’ job; and the lawyers never learned how to type quickly, anyway.

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        So if I’m understanding this correctly, PCs were common in the eighties and nineties, but they were actually closer to typewriters than today’s computers :) ?

        1. Anon From Here*

          Yeah, I guess, but don’t underestimate how mind-blowing it was to be able to delete a typo or badly worded text rather than having to trash a piece of paper and start from scratch.

          E-mail attachments were … complicated back then. E-mail wasn’t a tool for sending documents back and forth; it was more of a substitute for phone calls and mass communication for the office.

        2. London Calling*

          Data was on floppy discs that you had to insert and hope that someone hadn’t used them as a mug rest or left them on a radiator.

          Hand written telexes that went down to the telex room, they typed them and sent a copy back for the files.

          No post it notes – I had a sheaf of handwritten reminders kept together with a bulldog clip.

          No adding up in Excel – you had an adding machine with a tally roll.

          No spreadsheets – manual card ledgers

          And really going back here (mid 7os) – typewriters. I worked in the securities department of an American bank in London and we had to send reports of dividend payments to stockholders. The typist had to type in the details on various forms (depending IIRC on where the stockholder was resident for tax purposes). The forms were carbon coated (so we had progressed beyond carbon paper) but some were quite thick so I remember her really bashing the keys to make sure the data could be read on all the copies; because nce the top copy had gone to the customer the back ones were used for manual ledger posting. We did it on the public counter once the bank had shut – debits in one pile, credits in the other. And you had better balance because if you didn’t, you were looking for the difference until you found it. However long that took.

        3. Rebecca*

          Yes and no – my PC had a mainframe emulation card, so I could Alt-Esc and flip over to our mainframe system, then back to the PC part. Back then, we never saw two monitors. The video cards probably wouldn’t have supported it anyway. I liked it better when I had a dummy terminal and a PC separately.

          We didn’t have a network, so if I created a letter or memo and wanted to give it to the person sitting next to me, or across the street, I saved it to a floppy disk and handed it to that person. Our hard drives were pretty small then, my first hard drive was 10MB, so when programs could be loaded to a hard drive, instead of being run from dual disk drives, I usually saved my documents onto floppy disks. Even more fun was the limitation of 8 characters to name the file, then a “dot”, like JOHNMEMO.DOC. That got confusing, so I had a steno pad that I started each January, so memos were M0011985, so memo# 001 in 1985, Letters were L0011985, etc. I kept a log of what was on each one, because the days of naming files Letter to John about the Teapot Spouts 11-30-18 were long in the future.

        4. WellRed*

          There was a thing called word processors. Like a typewriter but with delete and other functions. Definitely not a PC though.

        5. curly sue*

          Yes and no. My parents worked for IBM and had a ‘home office,’ so we had in-home personal computers early. The first one I remember having was in 1984, a PC Jr. It had 640 K of memory, loaded off of a tape drive, and any program you wanted to run had to be loaded in the disc drive on a 5.25″ floppy disc. But it looked like you’d expect a computer to look – monitor, tower, keyboard, but we had a joystick instead of a mouse. We had Commodore 64s at school, which were slightly more sophisticated, iirc. We had games like the basic King’s Quest, Frogger and Ghostbusters, all of them with blocky 16-bit graphics.

          The monitors were those really deep ones like tube TVs, though. My cat was *peeved* when we finally switched over to flat screen monitors at home — she’d lost her favourite warm basking place.

          The computers we had in the 1990s were virtually indistinguishable from modern ones in terms of looks, except for the size of the monitors. If you want the electronic typewriters and sepia-screened portable PCs, you want 1980s.

          My mother was working on computers in the 1960s, and she’s got great stories about the room-sized computers made of a collections of refrigerator-sized cabinets of discs. She started with the Multi Function Card Machines (aka the “mother-f****r-card-manglers”) which used punch cards to run programs. Bugs in your code were actual bugs.

    4. Jaid*

      Huge standing metal “binders” that could hold a thousand pages, divided into different sections of our manuals. Sperry computers (black screen, orange letters). Dot matrix printers. Desks with cubbies and a roll-away drawer, arranged in rows of five. A smoking lounge. A honest-to-goodness bell for shift dismissal.
      I came in after they got rid of smoking at the desks, thank goodness.

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        A bell? Couldn’t people have just checked their watches and left at the set time? What kind of office was this?

        This is fascinating, thank you so much for sharing!

        1. Jaid_Diah*

          Oh, we were a Federal three building multi-story campus with two shifts. Now we’re in a five floor office building, no bells, multiple shifts.

      2. London Calling*

        Green and white computer printout paper! huge boxes of it under the printer.

        As for the smoking – in my first job (1975) by the end of the afternoon it was like working in fog with all the smoke in the office. When I washed my sweaters the water was yellow with the nicotine.

        1. Rebecca*

          Oh, yes, I remember smoking in the offices! And the green and white computer paper, and the warnings in those big IBM 5125 (I think that was the model) printer to keep hair, necklaces, ties, etc. out of them, but you had to lean over to change the ribbon!

          1. London Calling*

            Pale green and white striped paper (no idea what was behind the choice of paper) folded concertina fashion in boxes about a foot deep. A3 size, I think. It was fed into the dot matrix printer, adjusted very carefully onto the sprockets and clipped down. Get it wrong and the whole thing came adrift and jammed and you had to start the printing again.

          2. Rebecca*

            The horizontal green and white stripes made it easier to read the data. We even had special binders to put the reports into once they were printed. Sometimes you got one printout a week, and made notes on it, looked things up, then the computer guys would run a new one each Monday or whatever day and put it in your mail slot.

            1. London Calling*

              Forgot those – the big files with the plastic retainer that you had to thread through the holes in the paper and then clip so it didn’t all fall out

      1. curly sue*

        If you mean the long perforated strips of holes on the side of dot matrix paper, yes! I used to pull them off and fold Jacob’s Ladders with them.

        1. Rebecca*

          :) nope!! In the first version of Lotus 123 I used, you had to use a “printer string” or embedded printer commands to get things to print in landscape, portrait, etc. It was tons of fun!!

          If you want a real blast from the past, look up Oki Data User’s Guide OL830 Lotus 1-2-3 :)

    6. Piano Girl*

      I did data processing for an accounting firm back in 1980. In order to add journal entries to a particular company, I had to grab the “control card stack” for the entity, add another stack of cards that contained the journal entries (they were typed on a keypunch machine), and then take the cards over to a data processing center. Since my husband and I only had one car, I usually rode my bike to work and to transport the cards. The next day, I would go pick up the printouts.
      We would also do tax returns on these long data entry forms that got sent to Denver (we were in Utah), processed, and sent back. If there were mistakes, they would need to be manually fixed and then sent back.
      It was crazy!

  114. cactus lady*

    I just agreed to an informational interview for a friend of a colleague who is interested in moving into my field and potentially my company. He knows I’m not in a hiring position, but he’s interested in my work. Looking at his CV, he’s way more experienced than I am! It’s a little intimidating. He works in the same industry but a different type of role right now. Any suggestions AAM folks?

    1. ANon.*

      Even if he has more years of experience, there’s still plenty of info/advice you can give him! Particulars about your role, how you got into it, as well as the culture of the company you work at. I’m sure he’ll be grateful for whatever information you’re able to provide :)

  115. blackcat*

    How long until I can get really cranky about travel reimbursement for an interview?
    It’s higher ed, so everything is slow, but I flew across the country on very short notice, spending ~$1500. I submitted reimbursement right away. It’s been 7 weeks. I did not get the job. I sent a polite “Where is my money?” email 2 weeks ago, and was told it was “being processed.”
    $1500 is a lot of money to float! I can without hardship, but I’m pretty peeved. I’m right to be peeved, yes? Any suggestions for another “Where is my money?” email?

    2. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I’m in higher ed, and yes you are right to be peeved. I personally have never gone more than 4 weeks for a reimbursement. My last reimbursement took one week, from submission to getting my money.

      I would contact them again, but this time with a phone call – and you can send a follow up email for documentation – because often in higher ed, a phone call gets you faster results. This is baffling to me as I am an Email Person, but I think sometimes bugging someone on the phone, with your voice, asking for attention RIGHT NOW will get you the results you need.

      Higher ed is slow typically because 1) we’re understaffed 2) we get a lot of PTO 3) the people who review and approve these things are in tons of meetings or out of office.

      Good luck!

      1. blackcat*

        Good idea to call! Thanks!
        And, yeah, I feel like my institution is slow, and they generally take 4 weeks for reimbursement. 7 weeks feels a lot longer, and I think the holidays coming up makes me more antsy.

      2. blackcat*

        Update: I called, it’s “in the mail” and has been for more than a week.

        I will call back if it’s not here by Tuesday. My mom lives near this university, and stuff she puts in the mail almost always reaches me within a week. So I’m skeptical….

    3. whistle*

      You absolutely have a right to be peeved. Honestly, since it has taken this long, I would expect to never receive it without going over someone’s head.
      Here is what I would do. Send one more email/make one phone call and request a timeframe. When that time frame elapses (or if they do not respond), go to a dean and explain the situation and request assistance.
      I had to do this at a major university that employed me as a visiting professor. I had a research budget in my contract, and got the run around on reimbursement for three months. I was a week away from the position ending and leaving the city, and I was totally panicked. I went a law advice forum and was basically like “how can I sue Big Name U?” A lawyer suggested contacting a dean. I did and had my reimbursement in 48 hours. Once I had my reimbursement, I sent another email to the dean thanking her for assistance and pointing out that having to beg for a $3,000 reimbursement for months while received glossy pamphlets in my mailbox everyday bragging about how Big Name U had just received the largest single donor endowment in the history of the universe was the most insulting thing an employer had ever done to me. Yes, I’m still bitter, but at least I’m not $3,000 poorer.

  116. TechWorker*

    Can I have advice on managing someone who is underconfident to the point they need hand holding? It’s like they’re so nervous about messing up they don’t even try before asking for help or for the next steps.

    So far I’ve:
    – got them to repeat tasks back to me when discussed so it’s clear they understand what to do
    – asked them to make notes as they ask questions/on processes so they don’t have to check in so frequently

    They’re almost hyper aware that they’re asking lots of questions which doesn’t really help – it’s not like they think they’re doing great, they’re worried about their performance which is a bit of a spiral (even though I’ve reassured them it’s normal to feel overwhelmed at this stage of their career & they’re not doing as badly as they think). When they actually do the work it’s okay – and they did well in the internal training so they are capable of the hard bits, just struggling with processes, afaict.

    1. Anonnow*

      Can you give them tasks where it is ok for them to mess up? That is what I usually do with new people. After training, I give them something that is easily fixed or repeated if there is a problem and tell them that. Knowing that messing up is ok helps a lot.

      1. TechWorker*

        So to some extent, no, because my team is super busy (suboptimal for training new people I know), but you’re right I can stress more *why* it doesn’t matter if they mess up. Like everything is reviewed and tested by us and then by others before it ever reaches a customer, so if process is followed the danger of doing anything impacting (at his level) is basically zero. Thanks!

    2. Kathenus*

      Two thoughts, which are almost contraindicated to one another. One is to break up learning and tasks into smaller parts so that they can have more frequent success in achieving/succeeding in them. And hope that success begets comfort and confidence over time. The second is to be clear that the ability to master xyz tasks and work mostly independently is an important part of the job and have an open discussion of how she can achieve that and/or if this is the right job for her if she cannot.

      And pointing out the successes she’s having, like you note with the internal training, can help build confidence as well.

    3. CatCat*

      I had a supervisor in the past who would ask me bluntly, “What have you done to resolve this yourself?”

      That actually helped me a lot since it set the expectation that I would take steps to resolve it myself before going to her.

  117. LindseyBluth*

    Is it normal for a company to advance your pay…without telling you? I just got my final check from my last job, and it was short 70 hours. Apparently at the beginning of my time with the company, they advanced my pay by 2 weeks to keep up with their payroll schedule, without informing me. When I left, they subtracted it from my total pay…also without informing me. I even emailed with the payroll rep before I left and she never made mention of this, and said my last 2 weeks + remaining vacation would be paid out on the last payday of the month. The handbook says under NY law, the company can subtract from my paycheck at any time, but is it normal for them to do that without telling me at all?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t say it’s normal, but if it’s legal you may not have any recourse. For them not to tell you is really inconsiderate.

      1. LindseyBluth*

        I’m particularly upset because I touched base with our HR and Payroll depts several times over my last two weeks. You’d think, in the holiday season particularly, they might make mention of it.

          1. valentine*

            Two weeks seems like a lot for you to not notice, and something you’d have readily flagged as an error. Is your pay rate the same? Is there no tax implication? If you stayed for 20 years, were they still going to hit you with this?

    2. mreasy*

      How is this legal if they put you under the minimum wage for that time period by subtracting the pay?

  118. Anonymous Educator*

    Is there an official term for this phenomenon?

    Someone has some super tedious manual process they do and asks you to make it more automated. Then they expect you to run the automated process you created instead of them running it, even if though they can run it themselves and it still takes a lot less time than their previous manual process.

    I mean, I push back on that every time it happens, but it still happens. It has to have a name, right?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Hey, I’m lazy, too. So when you give me tools to automate something I previously had to do manually, I use those tools instead—I don’t try to push my job on to the toolmaker.

          1. Trout 'Waver*

            There’s an old joke about hiring the laziest guy you know to run your most inefficient process.

    2. goto 1*

      They decided that you made it, so you own it. They may cover this by saying “oh, it’s sooooo complicated, I couldn’t possibly”. They will keep saying this no matter how many times you train them on it. It’s because they don’t want to do it.

      The people who don’t do this are the people who I’ll happily make automated stuff for. The people who do this… well, they’re nightmares who think calling me a guru makes me forget that they’re trying to dump a new responsibility on me.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I push back on it and make them do it. I was just wondering if this horrible mentality was common enough to have an official (or even Urban Dictionary) name.

  119. Goya de la Mancha*

    Interviewers who don’t work at the company? Normal or No?

    I sent this in a few months ago, so I’m assuming it’s now safe to post!

    The I work in a small (5 of us full-time) department for one of the larger businesses in our city. We are in our own building, and largely forgotten by the company and it’s other workers (which is really OK, most of the time.) I transferred into this department and didn’t really have an interview per say, just sat down with the Supervisor and we discussed my job expectations. For every other position that has been filled while I’ve been here, there has been a formal interview process. The Supervisor of our department, the company HR person, and one or two other people are usually in on the interviews. The 4th person has always been one of the current department members, whoever is most senior. The 3rd person has ALWAYS been a member of the community. Our department does work closely with community groups, and these people have all worked with our department (through these groups) for long periods of time, but I just find it utterly bizarre that the Supervisor/HR would bring-in a non-employee for a company interview. Am I alone in this thought?

    1. Chocolate Teapot*

      The only similar situation I have been in was for a very small (1 person looking to expand) company, where the person didn’t have much experience with hiring and reviewing CVs, so somebody who was an HR consultant, but not a specific recruitment firm, did that part.

  120. Ada*

    Hi all. I’d really appreciate some feedback on whether an idea I had this week is a good or bad one. Long story short, I’m drastically underpaid. According to Glassdoor, people at my company with my title and half my experience have a salary around $65k (which is about the market norm), whereas I make less than $45k. I took a lower salary when I started because it was the start of the recession, I had no experience, it was a small, stand-alone office, and there were few relevant jobs in my area. We’ve since merged with a larger company with more resources, and now only the last point still applies. At my last (very positive) midyear review, where they even discussed promoting me in the near future, I presented my supervisor with a spreadsheet of data on the market rate for my position and asked what I need to do to get my salary in line with the market. I was told they really don’t have a good answer for why I’m still paid so little. It seems essentially the only thing standing in my way is that someone I have no natural way of interacting with in the main office in another state basically doesn’t want to raise my salary. The only way I can think of to advocate for myself is to add a note in the free-form box on my end of year self review, in the hopes that they’ll see it. I was thinking of something like the following:

    “Over the past nearly eight years, I’ve worked hard to develop my skill set and earn a reputation for producing high-quality work in a timely manner. Additionally, over the last two years, my workload has increased considerably, and I’ve done whatever is necessary to meet the increased demand, including staying late and working weekends on a fairly regular basis. Despite the increased workload, I’ve stayed on top of my deadlines and continued to produceh high-quality work. Therefore, I would like to understand why my salary is so out of line with what other (employees with my title) in this company are making, and what can be done to get my salary up to an appropriate level.”

    I’d also attach the Glassdoor page that shows the reported salaries for my company and title. Is this a bad move? It’s more aggressive than what I’m used to, but I don’t know what else to do. Granted, I plan on starting a job search next year, but it will likely take a while as it we plan to relocate, possibly out of state. In the meantime, I’d like to be able to save for the move, so a higher salary would really help right now. (And I realize it may be too late in the year to expect a real change, but I’m pretty much out of ideas as to how to get in front of this person in a way that’s appropriate for my office’s culture.)

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I’m all for the aggressive approach. You probably need others to chime in on this, though.

    2. irene adler*

      I would include more than just the Glassdoor numbers for your salary- salary.com, professional organization salary surveys, BLS, etc. Don’t let them come back to you with “but Salary.com says you are overpaid” or some other such nonsense.

      Secondly, can you quantify such statements as :
      “my workload has increased considerably” –> include “by X % since a year ago” or some other numerical statistic that reflects this increase.

      “staying late and working weekends” –> can you show how many additional hours this is? And then put it into a percent. Is this 10 hours additional per week you are averaging? So that’s 25% over the standard 40 hour week.

      Lastly, how do you want to be compensated? Should your salary increase be awarded based on what you are experiencing (a 50% increased word load, 25% additional hours spend working) or on what others of the same job title are compensated? There’s a difference. I would look to the per cents to decide this.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I would change the last line to “Therefore, I would like to revisit my salary and discuss a timeline for bringing it in line with what other (employees with my title) in this company are making.”

      I think the part about understanding why it’s so low is just a little too confrontational-sounding and honestly, there’s no good answer to that. Either they have one (which won’t be convincing) or they don’t (because the reason is they haven’t felt it was necessary).

      I also wouldn’t leave it as an optional thing they can easily overlook or ignore (the comment box on your EOY review). I think you should take this up with your supervisor again, say you’ve given it more thought and want to pursue this, and ask about next steps.

      2. Ada*

        Thanks. I was really struggling with the wording for the call to action, and that really helps. I think I’ll also rework the bit about late hours. Although I had some late nights recently, in general over the past year I’ve created enough checks, systems, tricks, and automation that all the extra work I’ve taken on hasn’t been really translated into a ton of extra hours lately. (It just feels like it because I’m churning through such large amount of work during reporting times.) I’ll give it some thought and do some word smithing over the weekend.

  121. StellaBella*

    I think I know the answer here but advice, please:
    1. Interviewed on 14 Nov. Sent thank you note on 15th Nov. No reply (Ok, no problem). Was told in interview that a decision would be made in a week.
    2. Followed up on 26th Nov. with recruiter. She’s no longer at the firm (got an auto reply stating this, and to contact another woman.).
    3. Sent email to that recruiter on 26th Nov. I have heard absolutely nothing.

    Do I follow up again next week? Have I been ghosted?

    This firm has amazing reviews online in several places. It is well regarded. The first recruiter worked there only since July. Not sure how to move on tho – because the interviewers (2 of them) both know my MSc advisor very well. Seems like an awkward situation when I see him next week, maybe, as he will ask about it. I can just say I have not heard a thing.

    Just a bit disappointed.

    1. irene adler*

      I would contact them again to make sure second recruiter has been properly addressing the first recruiter’s tasks. I would hate to find out someone was interested in hiring me but the handoff betw. recruiters 1 and 2 lost me in the cracks.

      1. StellaBella*

        Good idea. This is what I thought I conveyed in my message to recruiter 2, but I will do this again Monday.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I think you leave it. What with one recruiter leaving and the holiday, it isn’t surprising you haven’t heard anything. You followed up on Monday with the new recruiter — that’s plenty.

  122. IT Girl*

    I have my first ever office Christmas party next week. Does anyone have any advice for what to expect and any dos and don’ts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would say don’t get drunk. And try to stay away from colleagues who’ve been drinking too much. Also, if you’re an introvert, and there’s a cocktail hour, skip that and show up for the main event, whatever that is (sit-down dinner, toasts and gift exchange… whatever).

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Use it as an opportunity to talk to people from other departments. Don’t just hang out with the people you see every day. Also, you’ll be judged by the company you keep, so act accordingly. If you want to party with the cool kids, do it at the after party.

    3. Rey*

      What to expect varies so much depending on the company so my suggestion is that if there is someone who’s behavior you trust in general (i.e., they always behave professionally and they’re well-thought of in your company), follow their lead. The goal here is simply “don’t do anything inappropriate”. There might be situations that you’re not perfect in (maybe its a *very* fancy dinner and you don’t know which fork to use), but as long as you don’t get drunk, or do anything that is not okay at work (flirting with coworkers, saying something racist, etc.), no one will remember it. If possible, get one drink at the beginning of the night and nurse it all night long, or switch to water, and if you anyone asks, you can say that you have an early morning the next day.

    4. Ada*

      I think it really depends on the office as to what to expect for a holiday party. I’ve seen everything from a potluck with a price giveaway for best dishes in a certain category, to gift swaps with convoluted rules, to dinner (and maybe dancing) at a nice restaurant or country club, to an escape room experience, to a day trip to a pinball machine museum. That doesn’t even count the stories I’ve read on this site. Is there a colleague who’s been there a while you could ask what the parties for your company are like?

      1. TechWorker*

        The people who organise socials at my company would be sad to hear the advice to a newbie of ‘get one drink and nurse it all night’ – it’s not appropriate to get *really* drunk but it’s also intended as a social event and some companies really do want you to relax rather than be on edge. I think the advice of ‘know your limits and take your cues from trusted colleagues’ is fair in a lot of companies vs just ‘don’t drink’

        1. Rey*

          I actually don’t drink at all, and I get comments like yours a lot, were others feel uncomfortable and think they have to “fix” my non-drinking. As an adult, every party goer gets to choose exactly how much they want to drink without feeling like they have to meet someone else’s standards for relaxed or not on edge, lest the social committee be disappointed. I choose not to drink for myself, I’m not doing it to spite anyone.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Ask coworkers what last year’s party was like.
      Treat the party like a business opportunity. Be appropriate in dress and behavior.
      I wouldn’t drink alcohol at all at your first office party. Leave early if you start feeling uncomfortable. Get your own drinks. Next year, you’ll know more on what to expect.
      Remember: you have to see these people again at work real soon!

  123. Tax Help please!*

    My fiancé recently purchased a new car and had to pay taxes. Only his name is on the car (we wanted both our names but the dealership said only his could be since he’s the only one on the loan). He doesn’t have enough deductions to itemize. I plan to itemize, can I deduct the car tax on my taxes? I’m in FL

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I’m confused. Since you are two unmarried individuals filing separately, in the eyes of the government, this is a car bought and paid for by a stranger. I assume your fiance also paid the property taxes. How would you get to deduct it when you have no ties to the car or the deductible expense? I’m curious if it would be possible and hope a tax person weighs in because my assumption is you can’t.

      Also, on you not being on the title, I had myself, my dad, and my husband on my car title in 1999, and my dad was not on the loan. He got a manufacturer’s discount, so that’s why we did it, but I haven’t heard of someone not being able to be on the title because they are not on the loan. You can do the same thing with mortgages, too. I guess it could be a lender-specific requirement, but it isn’t a law. . .or at least it wasn’t in KS in 1999.

      1. Tax Help please!*

        In my eyes we live in the same home where the car is registered and I do drive the car but you are right that in the eyes of the government there is no link.

        I thought that not being able to add me to the title was odd too but was just ready to leave the dealership so I didn’t argue. I’ll have to look into if it’s possible to add me to the title after the fact.

        2. WellRed*

          I may be wrong but I think in my state, you don’t actually get the title until the loan is paid. Could that be what’s happening?

          1. nonegiven*

            In my state you get the title, the lien holder is on the title and when you pay it off, you get a lien release to take to the DMV to get the lien removed.

            1. Someone Else*

              Where I live what you just described is what the registration looks like, but the buyer does not get physical possession of the title until the car is paid in full.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        PS. This has nothing to do with being on title or not. You didn’t pay the taxes, you can’t deduct them.

        As for the dealer not putting you on title — that’s completely bogus and whoever you were dealing with didn’t know what they were talking about. As long as at least one borrower is on title, it’s not an issue having additional people on title. I think he can put you on title just by filling out the right paperwork with the DMV.

    3. pandq*

      I believe that even if you had paid the tax you are not able to deduct them, since you are not liable to pay them.
      It’s not your debt or expense to pay, since your name is not on the title.

  124. Anon because details*

    I’m a doctor a few years out of training. I like my job well enough, but feel like there’s too much of it. My hours are not bad for my job. I started thinking within the last week about whether I’d be happier at 0.8 time (4 days per week). I could live on 80% of my salary and have reason to believe (though would confirm) that that is still enough to qualify for FT benefits.

    Please don’t suggest another profession; I’ve done a bunch of things and am sticking with this one for now. I have also thought about changing jobs, but my workload is really not bad as these things go and my dissatisfaction doesn’t seem to be anything specific to this job, just working in general. It’s not off the table, though, but I would probably have to move.

    What else should I be thinking about to make this decision?

    1. Rey*

      I haven’t ever transitioned a full-time job to less than 40 hours per week. I think there are some other things I would turn to before considering that. Am I using my vacation hours? (Or am I saving them for a rainy day that never comes, and then feeling burnt out?) Am I really watching out for my own mental health and doing self-care things to decrease my stress and increase my overall satisfaction? As needed, do I take a mental health day and use my sick hours? Do I have plans for my recreation time that I’m excited about? Am I spending time with the friends and family that make me feel happy?
      I am wary of decreasing hours if you aren’t already working overtime, because it seems like a losing situation for your employer, so they don’t have anything to gain by approving this for you. They get an 80% employee (instead of the presumably 100% that they want), they still pay you full-time benefits, and they have to spread out that 20% among the other employers or try to hire a part-time employee to make up the difference.

      1. Anon because details*

        One of the reasons I think it might work is that my partner, who has been extremely part time, wants more hours, so it would be a rearrangement of hours more than anything.

        I do not take all my vacation. The system combines vacation and sick leave and there is no roll over. Pretty much everyone loses at least a couple days that they were saving in case they got sick at the end of the year. I try to get the rest taken, though. I do not take as needed mental health days–someone would have to reschedule all my patients for that day. I have lots of recreation plans that I am excited about.

        1. valentine*

          Unless you have very little leave and use it in multi-day chunks, scheduling it as far in advance as your patients are able to set appointments may stop you needing impromptu mental health days. If you prefer particular days, you can leave those last to be scheduled.

    2. Book Lover*

      It depends where you work. Lots of physicians and nurse practitioners at my practice work less than full time. I believe benefits begin to taper down at 70%.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve considered this, and my main concern is that I would end up being (informally) expected to manage a 100% workload in 80% time.

      So: be explicit about what you are not going to do as a result of your schedule change. In my work, that could look like: handing off a project or a piece of a project, lowering goals/metrics, backing off from org-wide committee work, not being accessible by phone or email one day a week, etc. What would that look like for you? (Reduce patient load? Give up a research project? etc.)

    4. only acting normal*

      Not a doctor, but in my science/analysis job I switched to 80% of full-time and it is soooo much better.
      Things to watch out for:
      Mainly workload, people forget you are part time when you work most of a week (it registers less in their consciousness than say a 1 or 2 day week would) so tend to think you can do a full workload when they plan things, don’t be afraid to remind them of the limit on your available time.
      Watch out for being left out of regular meetings that fall on your non-work day – if they really are immovable maybe factor that into choosing your work pattern.
      On a related note, there are some overheads (e.g. meetings) that take the same amount of minutes/hours per week whether you work 5/4/3/2 days – if you ever catch grief for productivity, maybe gently point that out.
      Professional training – you’re still entitled to push for pro-rata time/money for this (if it is a company funded thing).
      Beware people pushing your boundary to work “just this once” on your non-work day – hold very very firm. My mantra is “I don’t work Fridays” said breezily and unapologetically, all Fridays are blocked out in my electronic calendar, and I use an out-of-office message on my emails & voicemail so no-one expects an immediate reply. In three years I’ve only worked two Fridays, e.g. for a very hard to arrange meeting with a lot of busy people far senior to me, and I took the Monday off in lieu those weeks.
      I helps that part time working is well supported in my company (and my new boss has the same work pattern as me!), but full time is still by far the norm so reminders and boundary guarding are still needed.

  125. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Biding my time till I give notice, but still waiting for suitability to go through…..also, our team at current job won a prize, but the award listed the wrong team. So they hastily corrected it after the ceremony.

    How long does suitability take? (Assuming you have full clearances down pat and all)…..

    If I started at newjob, I’d be teleworking right now with a future heretofore not-yet-but-soon-will-exist corporeal kitty….as it is, I pulled a 7:50 am shift and am keeping myself awake with gum and the occasional m&m for sugar. And I’m sick with a cold :S :/

  126. yeine*

    a male coworker of mine, “steve,” has routinely explained to me that you can will, diet, and exercise away all your problems. i saw steve squinting at his computer a while and asked if he was okay, and he said “my doctor said i should get glasses but i don’t want my eyes to become weak or used to that, so i’m not.” he also loves to take mystery gels that advertise will improve your brain function. (?!)

    steve isn’t an american native and has told me a couple of times that there’s no gender wage disparity in his country, which… i’d say is pretty unlikely, as he doesn’t come from a country that’s known as being especially progressive.

    recently steve has been out of the office for an extended period of time. i idly brought this up to our office manager/hr person, who said “oh, steve has a medical thing. he should be back but we don’t know when.” in response, i said “oh! okay. hope he gets better.”

    I do want steve to get better, but there’s definitely a small, mean, smug, inner part of me going ‘oh… he couldn’t just exercise it away? or is he just exercising *really* hard right now?’

    1. goto 1*

      If he’s anything like guys like that I’ve known, he can’t generalize from his life to other people’s. So it would be okay for HIM to do medical stuff because he needs it. But it still wouldn’t be okay for anyone else.

    2. Roja*

      My mind boggles at the glasses comment. His eyes will get worse, not better, if he doesn’t get glasses! He sounds… fun.

  127. psychresearcher*

    I’m approaching 2 years at my company, and I’d planned to ask for a raise of around 5%. However, before that could happen, we were given cost of living raises of 1.5%. My colleagues and I weren’t actually told ahead of time about this; we just suddenly noticed larger than normal paychecks last month. Does this mean it’s likely not worth it for me to ask for an additional 2 or 3%? Or, would it be normal/acceptable to do so if I think I can justify it given the level at which I’ve been working/expect to keep working?

    1. goto 1*

      Ask for the raise. COL is a separate thing and is related to the area you’re living in, not the work you’re doing.

    2. Kathenus*

      You can definitely ask but be prepared that if the budget has already been completed/approved for the upcoming fiscal year that it could impact whether or not they could or would do so right now. It’s always helpful to know the budgeting schedule where you work because it helps you better target requests like this or for major projects or purchases more effectively. Good luck.

  128. Princess Scrivener*

    Any suggestions for interview questions that reveal whether or not a job candidate can be forceful (about regulatory requirements and process standards) yet tactful with very high-level executives? The person in this role will collaborate with Directors and above on a daily basis. Thank you!

    1. CAA*

      “Tell me about a time when you had to enforce a policy that you did not originally create.”
      “Tell me about a time when someone above you in the corporate hierarchy violated a policy you were responsible for enforcing.”

  129. Krackln*

    I work in a dog-friendly office, and there has been no dog drama so far. Most people’s dogs walk around the office, say hello, and then relax by their humans the rest of the day. I recently got a young puppy who, now that he is vaccinated, comes with me everyday.

    So far my puppy has been very well-behaved. He sleeps most of the day or plays quietly with his toys while I work. No barking, no accidents inside. I have to take him out to pee fairly often and redirect his chewing to appropriate toys, but he is not demanding that I or anyone else entertain him constantly. He doesn’t need much exercise right now, but I’ve blocked out 30 minutes before work and my 30 minute lunch breaks for walks when he does need to exercise. My hope is he will become accustomed to office life very early and will just nap most of the day, even when he has more energy. I got some chew deterrent for my chair and desk and have been coming in early and staying late to make up for the times he takes me away from work, which my manager approved of. No one has complained about him and I’ve gotten a few compliments on how well-behaved he is from my coworkers. The other day no one even noticed he was with me until halfway through the day.

    So it seems to be going well. Is there anything else I should do though? I’ve wanted this puppy for a very long time and was overjoyed to finally have a job that makes puppy ownership possible for me, but I don’t want him to be a disruption to me or anyone else or put my manager in a position where she has to talk to me about him. I’m fully prepared to put him in doggie daycare once he’s old enough (about 2 more months) if he is misbehaving or distracting, though of course I would rather not deal with the expense. If anyone has worked in a dog-friendly office or brought a young dog to work, what did you do, or what would you have liked your coworkers to do?

    1. Kathenus*

      I wish I worked in a dog friendly office (I know there are many pros and cons, so not wanting to reopen that discussion here), but I have to say it sounds like you’re doing great. The only suggestions I can even think of are to occasionally ask your manager if the way you’re dealing with how you allocate your schedule related to dog care is still working, and to proactively mention to your coworkers that this is your first experience with having an office dog and to please let you know if there are ever any questions or concerns about your dog or his behavior. But you sound like a very conscientious coworker and pet owner.

    2. Not All*

      Good for you for doing it right! I used to work in a couple different pet-friendly jobs and I really miss it!

      We did have a couple crates that anyone could use if they needed for some reason. We also had a communal stack of “dog towels” that we would use to wipe off paws by the door on rainy days & take turns washing. Oh, and a gal who had a very slobbery dog (Newfie) kept a stack of towels in her office & would wipe slobber before she brought him through the rest of the building to make sure there was no collateral splatter lol We ended up agreeing on a “no toys that make noise” rules so no squeaky/crinkly toys. And everyone made sure to bathe their dogs regularly…most peopled did every 2-4 weeks depending on the type of dog.

      The only thing that you didn’t mention (hopefully just because it’s a given for you), is getting him fixed as early as your vet will do it. Most vets recommend 4 months at this point …or as soon as the testicles drop. Especially with males, adolescent hormone changes are when a lot of really obnoxious behaviors get started. (Not all dogs obviously, but a couple decades of intense volunteering for rescues & shelters really reinforced to me how big a problem it can be). I’m assuming you’re also keeping up on vaccinations and flea treatment.

      Congratulations on your new puppy!!

  130. Tabby Baltimore*

    Is anyone a Certified Scrum Master? If so, I have some questions: How did you “test” for your certification? What kinds of projects do you use your training for (bonus points if you’ve used the approach outside of work)? If you used a “modified” Scrum method, what did you have to do differently? Did you have a good outcome using Scrum? Thanks.

    1. CAA*

      Yes, I’m a Certified Scrum Master. You just have to attend the class and then pass the CSM exam. The exam was online. I think it was open book and you only need about 70% right to pass. Anyway, it’s not at all hard if you pay attention in the class. I’ve used Scrum for many years to run software development projects at work. Teams modify the Scrum methodology all the time in too many ways to document here.

  131. Dee Dee*

    AARGH.

    I’m now a manager! That’s good. I’ve inherited a problem. That’s bad.

    I was promoted a couple of weeks ago to the manager of the team I was on. So far, everything has been great. The people I was working with before have all been really supportive and positive about it. I’m having one issue though.

    I was told upon taking over the team that one of my now-direct reports is on a performance improvement plan. Among the issues is time management. She’s been working on a project for literally eight months that should have taken maybe a month, and there’s very little to show for it.

    I think I learned why it takes her so long, though, because at the end of the day yesterday she told me she had spent all day learning how to use this (complex) software tool to do one tiny little thing that’s part of the presentation she is putting together. I mean, first of all, I don’t know why she thought that was a valuable use of her time. Second of all, probably not something you ought to tell your new manager.

    Then today, we were supposed to have our first 1:1. A half hour beforehand, she asked if it was okay if she was 15 minutes late so she could go have lunch with a co-worker. I said that that was okay, as we wouldn’t need the full hour. Then she didn’t show up at 15 minutes past and so I moved the meeting. She responded thanking me for moving it because she was having a very passionate conversation with said co-worker.

    I mean, she knows she’s on a PIP. It’s a bit awkward because we’re still in the weird place where I am now her manager, but we haven’t really interacted in those terms yet. So I’m not sure what to do. I talked to the guy I’m inheriting this from (he was promoted above me, so I’m his direct report) and he said that he’s tried everything with her and nothing seems to sink in. He said he’s not going to just dump the issue on me, but I don’t think he expects we’ll be able to solve anything.

    I don’t know if anyone has any advice for a new manager, or even just commiseration, but I needed to vent!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know about this plan; it sounds like it just gives her more cracks to hide in. I would want to be hands on on this issue, because it’s my time she’s screwing with, not her former manager’s. I would interact with her in those terms ASAP, and I’d also find out what needs to happen before you can fire her. It sounds like she’s been left to limp along by a manager who should have fired her but didn’t.

      Given her time management issues, I’d be inclined to have her provide you with a list of completion goals at the start of each day (which you can expand to reasonable expectations if need be) and then to check at the end of the day whether they’re done. Either that gives her focus and her work improves or you have a solid record of her shortfalls. And she gets no leeway on meetings with managers any more.

    2. Psyche*

      You should probably tell her that it isn’t ok to not show up to a meeting because she is talking to a coworker at lunch. And that it isn’t ok to reschedule a work talk for lunch when she is on a PIP due to time management issues. She sounds like she doesn’t understand why those are not good things to do.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes. Asking to be late was ridiculous. Then, to not show? Honestly, let her finish the PIP and let her go.

    4. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      From your conversation with your boss, I think the ‘solve’ part is that she’ll exploring new opportunities soon.

      Here’s my advice. Adhere strictly to the PIP. Give the employee opportunity to reach the expected performance level, but don’t cut her any slack. Your example of learning the complex software is going to be something I would expect you to deal with when you learned of it or when she told you, but should also be in the feedback and check in for the PIP meetings (I’m assuming you are having them). The, “I missed a meeting because of a passionate conversation” is another one that should have been addressed in the moment.

      “Jane, I moved this meeting back by 15 minutes and you were not on time. According to you it was because of a conversation with your lunch partner. This is not acceptable. You’re priority needs to be meeting deadlines, either work production deadlines or meeting times.” And again this would be included in the PIP check in.

      From the sounds of it, she’s not taking the PIP seriously. So your boss (and me) are telling you this will likely end in termination.

    5. Kathenus*

      Lots of good advice already. My first thoughts would be to ask her to explain her understanding of the situation – why she’s on the PIP, what she’s doing to improve, how she thinks it’s going, and what she thinks still needs to be done. Listen to what she says and this might help frame the rest of the discussion. You might learn whether she doesn’t understand the situation, or if she doesn’t seem to care, if she seems to know and care and be improving, or if she seems to be trying but not improving.

      And I think after she’s had a chance to lay out her understanding of things, pointing out the time management issues you’ve already seen as her manager (versus just ones that might have initiated the PIP) and asking how she thinks she needs to change how she does things in these instances could be a useful exercise.

      Not knowing the details of the ‘everything’ that her former manager tried, have a frank conversation with her and see if the two of you can set up a new action plan, but also be clear what benchmarks she needs to achieve and what the consequences are if she can’t.

      This is a lot for a new manager to take on, but kudos to you for how you’re moving on it, and good luck.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I like the suggestion of having her describe to you in her words what the PIP means, what she needs to do to improve, and what will happen if she doesn’t. Maybe also ask for specific details what she thinks she’s already done to improve (I assume you have the metrics that were spelled out in the PIP). She may think things are going fine because she hasn’t been terminated yet. She needs to learn that, among other problems, blowing off a meeting with a manager for no good reason is not in line with job improvement.

        I would also stress a timeline for this. The PIP should have an established end date, right? If it doesn’t, create one. I’m also curious about the project that’s taken 8 months and counting. Was there a deadline of one month that she’s missed by 7+ months, or was it just ‘expected’ to take one month because other similar projects did? The only reason that matters is that if she didn’t have a hard deadline for the project, she might not really ‘get’ that it’s supposed to be done by now. Someone with time management skills would have a problem with a vague “about a month” timeframe for a project. And since it’s just been allowed to drag on, she’s not seeing any concrete consequences for not getting it done (except the PIP, which she doesn’t seem to care about).

    6. valentine*

      Any reason you can’t fire her now?

      If so, you don’t need a special meeting to tell her about the chasm between her and professionalism.

  132. Leah Morrow*

    We are a small office (3 physicians, 5 administrative staff). Although I mentioned physicians, we are not your typical medical practice and operate largely as a consulting firm. ANYWAY. We have a fairly small client base, and the individuals we work with are often switching between companies and back again. We currently use an Excel spread sheet to track our contacts as a company, and use Outlook for emailing.

    As you might imagine when one person learns of new information on a contact, it is updated in their own personal Outlook, but sometimes the update is neglected on the collective Excel document. I have been trying to find a very easy to use, preferably cloud based, system that allows us to have a “master list” for contacts. It would also be super-duper awesome if the platform had the ability to track notes about someone (i.e. Jane hates it when we ask for that form, just get it from David). Does anyone have a suggestion? How does your company keep track of client contacts? Thanks!

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The gov’t agency I worked for previously used SharePoint. It worked pretty well for coalescing workflows & group work on documents & policies, and was pretty easy to use.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Same with OneNote. It’s a pretty good collaboration tool, that can be shared and is integrated with microsoft products.

  133. MsChanandlerBong*

    I am getting really discouraged by the number of people who think they are owed a job. I had to terminate a few freelancers this week for various issues (plagiarism, poor quality, missed deadlines, etc.). THREE different people sent me multiple emails begging for their jobs back, giving me a laundry list of reasons why I should take pity on them (one is a single mother who needs to feed her child, one has to buy his mom’s medication, and one is the only earner in his family). Of course I feel a little bit bad, but they were fired for reasons entirely within their control. Nobody forced one writer to plagiarize. Nobody made another writer miss multiple deadlines. If it happened one time and it’s because the writer got stuck in traffic or had an Internet outage, I’d give them another chance. But there’s no reason for multiple missed deadlines. I am getting a bit annoyed that people are trying to emotionally manipulate me into taking them back (and the few times I have given someone a second chance after something like this, they have always gone back to their old ways within a matter of days).

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Just remind yourself that there are 3 (or however many) others out there that also need jobs for similar reasons and will perform well.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        That is a good point! I love how they use passive voice to try to distance themselves from the problem. “I am sorry for the plagiarism incident that happened to me.” Like plagiarism just jumped out from behind the bushes and attacked with no warning.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          I’m glad I finished my mouthful of copy before reading this. I had the mental image of a masked villein with a big P on his chest and an over sized quill yelling “Muwhahaha… let me copy that for you!”

      2. The New Wanderer*

        And those are just the reasons they claim to have. Regardless, professional people don’t resort to emotional manipulation to get you to overlook poor performance.

        1. valentine*

          If it helps you distance yourself, pretend they’re lying, because the result is the same.

          A neighbor told me she stopped helping a woman who took a lot from a lot of people and never gave back. She said, “There will always be someone to help.” (I guess a “For takers” is implied there.) And, indeed, it’s not like the woman laid down and died when Neighbor withdrew.

  134. The Curator*

    Have you ever had a really, really, really big project, years in the making, hundreds of volunteer hours?
    We have turned over the big project and are in the sales and marketing phase.
    I am trying to remember that “no” just means right now and is not a forever “no.”
    And that the process right now is to get our ducks in a row for the next “big project.”
    And that people want to help. And let them.

  135. Karyn*

    So. Awful interview story time.

    I was interviewing for a job last month for a legal assistant position with a major US company (hint: they make frozen dinner, chocolate, pet food, and bottled water) that involved three separate interviews, one of which was on site with two sets of interviewers, in Paris. I got through the first pair just fine, just the standard interview questions. The second group, however, One of the two interviewers was a fairly young attorney, about my age, who was the worst interviewer I’ve had for any job.

    She was incredibly condescending, especially when she found out that I have a law degree but not a license. She of course asked if I wanted to be a lawyer, and I gave my standard answer that, no, at this time I had no plans to take the bar exam, because I kind of figured out halfway through law school that being a lawyer was not for me. I told her, however, that I found that I really enjoyed working in the legal field, so I was more interested in legal assistant positions. Her response was, “Good, because you will NEVER be a lawyer here. You don’t hve ANY experience with what we do.” This is untrue, as I do the kind of work the position required every single day, just not in their particular area of law. The other interviewer said that it didn’t really matter that I didn’t have the particular legal background that they practice in that department, because I could probably quickly pick it up based on my current position’s work.

    She then proceeded to ask me about my current position, which is running my own independent, contractor based paralegal and bookkeeping business. I had to explain to her three different ways how it’s possible that I’m a paralegal for multiple attorneys. She asked multiple times, “Well how is it that you can work unsupervised? Aren’t you supposed to have an attorney supervising your work? I don’t get how you can be an independent paralegal.” She didn’t quite seem to grasp the idea that all my clients are attorneys and they supervise their own work. I finally explained it as, “it’s just like I’m working in their offices on their payroll, except I pay my own taxes.” Once she finally understood that, she asked me multiple times where I got my clients, and who they were. I Was taken aback by this, because it’s really none of her business. So I ended up saying that confidentiality clauses with my contracts with my clients prohibit me from disclosing their identities. That of course is a lie, but I had no desire to tell her exactly who my clients are, or how I get them, outside of a reference check. It just wasn’t relevant to the position.

    She spent the remainder of the interview asking me questions about my previous positions, including why I was laid off from my last one. This, in and of itself, isn’t an unreasonable question, but when I told her it was because the company downsized, she said that law firms, after the 2008 crash, don’t do much downsizing, so she wondered how accurate that explanation was.

    She also spent for the first 10 minutes of the interview complaining about the weather in this state (She had come from California where they had closed that branch of the legal department, to a state with incredibly cold weather). She said that she had also been “oversold” on the cost of living here. It was very strange.

    After the interview, I received a survey from HR, asking me for feedback about my interviewers. I very clearly and factually explained to them what had happened with that particular interviewer.

    Three weeks later, I got a call, first informing me that I did not get the position, which I had already figured out based on the fact that I hadn’t heard anything for three weeks. But they also wanted to follow up about the interview review comments that I had made. HR’s response was “holy crackers.” He apologized profusely for my experience, and said that she would be retrained immediately. That was at least nice, knowing that my comments have been heard, but this is one job I’m glad I didn’t get, because it saved me the hassle of turning it down. Just based on my interactions with her, and the fact that I would’ve been dealing with her on a daily basis, I wouldn’t have taken the job even if it was offered.

    Anyone else ever have an experience like this? How did you handle it?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Holy crackers! is right!
      What an unpleasant person. Likely, she was projecting her own misery and unhappiness and you unfortunately happened to be the target, probably because of your law degree. Ugh!

      I haven’t had anyone quite that bad, but once I went to an interview for a art director position at a BigStudio in Los Angeles. Well, “interview” was hardly correct. I entered a waiting room full of people, all with our large portfolios in hand. Upon my turn, the woman doing the “interviewing” did nothing more than flip through your book like she was looking at dried elephant crap patties. If you tried to explain some artwork or ask a question, she literally gave your the HAND. Worse, she smoked the whole time, dropping ashes onto your portfolio. Totally disgusting person and demeaning situation. Can’t imagine what a nightmare she must’ve been to work for.

      1. Karyn*

        I found it VERY strange – as did HR – that she felt the need to complain about the city and how the company had “oversold” the move to her. I mean, why would you complain about your company to a potential new hire? That seems… counterproductive.

        What you described at that studio, sadly, doesn’t shock me. Based on what I’ve heard from others who work in BigStudios (including a cousin of mine), people like that aren’t all that uncommon. At least you dodged that bullet!

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve never been asked for feedback on my interviewers! First thought I had reading that was they knew there was an issue and were trying to find out who/what it was. But their response makes it sound like maybe it’s a standard question and they were surprised by the answer? I think it’s great they asked and that you were honest, maybe a good thing will come of it for future applicants. I think you handled it great.

      1. Karyn*

        I actually had a slightly better impression of the company since they took my feedback seriously enough to call me about it. I really hope that she does get re-trained. I didn’t get the impression that she was being intentionally rude, actually – I think she was honestly just oblivious to how she was coming across – although, as I said, it was very strange that she complained about the company to a potential new hire.

    3. Karyn*

      LOL I just realized that my voice texting said that the job was “in Paris,” when I meant “in PERSON.” I’m LOLing at myself.

      1. WellRed*

        I was so confused by Paris. Your interviewer was obviously unhappy or secure. Si glad you gave the company honest feedback. People are so overly afraid to do this.

    4. limevodka*

      Late, but here we go. I interviewed for a PA role with a large international accounting firm and the interviewer was HORRENDOUS. She was a woman about my age and she was so uninterested in what I was saying that she kept her head down, doodled on her notebook and made no eye-contact throughout. She outright laughed to herself when I answered some questions (and not because I was being funny – it was genuinely disconcerting to have someone be so dismissive(?) of my answers to her questions).

      She asked what class of degree I received and I said ‘2:1’ – she literally said ‘WHY?’ (as in, why wasn’t it a first class degree– I was taken aback as I was 10 years out of University and had never been asked about this before and I was kind of thrown. And honestly, wasn’t up for explaining that I had struggled with undiagnosed panic disorder for my final two years of undergrad). The only time she showed any interest in our conversation was when she was singing the praises of their in-house social committee.

      I had been put forward for the role by an agency and I actually called them afterwards to tell them I was withdrawing my candidacy and to complain/give them a heads up about her behaviour. They were horrified, followed up with the company and actually called me later to say I was not the only person with this feedback. Honestly, normally I would shrug stuff like this off but had I been a bit less experienced or sure of myself I know this would have knocked me for six. I did feel I had to warn the agency, I would hate if the next interviewee was actually upset and I hadn’t said anything.

  136. Whew*

    I’ve been cross-training Jane, our new hire, since she started in October. She has two decades of experience in a related program area and is excellent at the work — she really only needs clear information about contract protocols and deadlines. Her manager, Alexa, is very new to management, doesn’t know how to do our work, and is panicking because the fiscal year is ending and results are not in after almost a year of no progress on her contract. (Alexa and I are both about 15 years younger than Jane, I do not work with Alexa directly).

    This week Alexa told Jane that she has to do the job of two people because Alexa hasn’t filled an open position yet and reports are due. Jane asked her whether Project A or B is more important and Alexa said “it’s your responsibility to manage your time, just do it all.” Jane clarified that she was looking for concrete deadlines and Alexa repeated that this is Jane’s personal issue to solve. Jane had already turned in 9 reports *this week*, which is more than Alexa has done ALL YEAR.

    Today Jane told me that when she came to supervision with reports to discuss, Alexa handed her a notebook and to-do list and said, “maybe this will help you prioritize your time better”.

    !!

    1. irene adler*

      “personal issue” to solve?

      I’d be fighting a strong urge to burn a bridge if I were Jane. Mighty strong urge.

    2. Kathenus*

      I guess smacking Alexa upside the head with the notebook isn’t the right solution? (just joking, mostly)

      1. Whew*

        I was shocked when Jane told me. I’ve had some issues with Alexa personality-wise but I didn’t think she could be THAT bad.

        I get more pissed about this the more I think about it. I can’t fathom why she thought it would be appropriate to say.

    3. London Calling*

      *Today Jane told me that when she came to supervision with reports to discuss, Alexa handed her a notebook and to-do list and said, “maybe this will help you prioritize your time better”.*

      If I were Jane I’d be biting my tongue so hard not to make some deeply unprofessional/snarky/PA reply that it would draw blood. Prepare to lose Jane because she’s good and good people have lots of options.

      1. Close Bracket*

        “I’ll prioritize my time if you prioritize my projects. Do you need this notebook back?”

        Dog save us from new managers.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I really hope Jane isn’t caving to any pressure to work overtime (assuming unpaid). If I were Jane, I would be polite but clearly at every meeting that without clear (*and useful*) guidance, I will prioritize how I see necessary, with the unspoken addition that I will not work 2 FTEs without the commensurate salary increase.

      Also, it’s not personal, it’s business. Alexa will not come out of this looking good if/when it comes out that she dumped an excessive amount of work on an employee without offering any help, rather than pick up the slack she herself created. Ideally, all Jane has to say is “it took X hours at max capacity to create 9 reports. I was asked to create 20 in the same X hours, which is not possible for a single contributor, and my attempts at asking for clarification on priorities were met with brush-offs.”

      1. London Calling*

        And if I were Jane I would be documenting the hell out of all my interactions with Alexa,

      1. valentine*

        If Jane can’t go above Alexa, she could send Alexa a priority list, saying, “As directed, I’ll accomplish the projects in the order below,” and carry on. What happens when Jane can’t meet the deadline that requires at least two people, if not a competent manager?

  137. Free Meerkats*

    Just back from reviewing supplemental questionnaires for a mid-level treatment plant operator opening.

    My Gods People! If the job announcement says “Must have a State Operator III License or higher”, don’t apply and say “I’m a really fast learner and will be able to get the license quickly.” Starting from nothing, it’s at least 3 years to obtain that license. Over half the applications didn’t meet the absolute minimum of licensing to even be considered.

    In governmental technical hiring, you can’t bullshit your way to an interview where you can try to dazzle with your Gumption.

    1. Brownie*

      SO MUCH THIS. There’s a couple job ads for one of the tech departments out right now, all of which state the requirement to be a US citizen for security/export control purposes. And yet, based on the last round of hiring, I’m willing to put money down that we’ll get a majority of applications from folks who aren’t US citizens and are looking to come over on an H1B temporary visa. If it’s a requirement on a gov job ad then it’s a requirement. Don’t have that requirement? Do not pass go, do not collect an interview/job!

      Side note: I’m more than a little convinced that this is why so many people think getting a gov job is hard. There’s no “apply at 80% of requirements met and use Gumption to cover the rest” here, especially not for technical positions.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I didn’t apply to a tech job for which I had a great deal of experience because it required six professional certificates that I did not have. I got another job at the same company and met the hiring manager later. “Six certificates?” he said. “I wonder who put that in the ad! None of us have any certificates. We would have been glad to have you.” It often pays to apply to jobs for which one lacks qualifications because so many companies post requirements that aren’t actually required. Maybe government works differently but not everyone would know that.

  138. 1.0*

    what do you do when you work with someone who can dish out rudeness and sarcasm and can’t take it? it’s “joking” and “fun” when he snarks at other people, but any pushback makes him go icy cold and aggressively try to paint you as being rude or furious or mean. it’s very frustrating.

    1. fposte*

      Is he mean when he does it? Then say “That’s kind of mean, Bob. Not cool.” If he protests, just say it again.

    2. Cruciatus*

      Can you take the fun of snarking and joking away from him? “What do you mean?” “That’s an odd thing to say.” “I don’t understand what you mean, please explain.” “That hasn’t been my experience with Fergus” (or whatever thing might be appropriate).

    3. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      My sister is like this. This might not be the best way to handle it, but when she gets icy or snappy at me after I make a joke or dish out some sarcasm, I just ignore it. I have learned that trying to explain that I was making joke in the same vein as one of her jokes, or making a comment about how she can dish it but can’t take it is not helpful. She just gets more defensive and pulls the “I was joking, but you were mean” defense, even if I made the same kind of joke that she did.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about this person painting you as rude or mean. If this person thinks you are mean because of this sort of an exchange, then so be it, in my opinion. Unless you disengage and quietly take their ribbing without giving it back, they will probably always think that you are mean. And that’s just the way it is with people like this. If you are worried about other coworkers listening to this person and assuming that you are mean because of what they said, I wouldn’t worry too much about that, either. Because if you know that this person can dish it but can’t take it, then everyone probably knows that. They have even probably experienced being painted as rude by this same person. Its super frustrating, and I totally understand wanting to scream to the rooftops, “I’m not a jerk–you just can’t take what you dish out”, but trying to ignore it and/or not worry about it might be your best option.

  139. FloppyPirateBoots*

    Question for Executive Assistants

    Do you get requests from your boss to “Find out how to contact Mr. Big at ABCompany and see if you can get an appointment with him.” Or, “Find out how to contact Mr. Big at ABCompany.” How do you do this if your boss doesn’t really *know* the person personally, but has a business proposition, would like a send them a letter, email, etc.? Do you try to find their executive assistant?

    I’m not an executive assistant, but I do handle the email marketing and I seem to get this from my managers and/or people on my sales team. I mean, I’m not a miracle worker. At best, I might do some research to find the email address or LinkedIn profile, but I have no idea how to get a meeting with someone high level such as other CEO’s.

    Am I being asked to do something kind of unreasonable?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m also not an executive assistant, but I’d imagine you don’t just call up and say “I’m so-and-so” but you invoke the power of the executive “I’m so-and-so’s assistant, wondering if I can get….”

  140. Job-Seeker*

    A potential employer wants me to do an assignment as part of the interview process. I’ve never met them in person and I don’t know the salary. We had a 20-minute phone interview.

    The assignment consists of four long-answer questions to hypothetical situations, and then one is to make an entire visually appealing PowerPoint presentation about a hypothetical policy I’m implementing. (The policy is unspecified — I just have to make it up.)

    My question is… is this a red flag? I know it’s not good to ask people to do things before even talking to them… but I get the impression I’m going to end up doing a lot of work in this role. Is this normal?

    1. fposte*

      I think this depends on the position, the length of the answers, and the duration of the PowerPoint. I’ve been on committees for positions that were going to involve a lot of presentations, so we had our finalists do presentations. I generally do the hypothetical situations during the interview, so you could look at this as basically getting the interview questions in advance; I confess, though, that I side-eye that one more, given that it’s not likely something you’d need to do in the job and I question if they’re going to be able to carefully read what they get anyway.

      So for me it could range from a little weird/overbearing but acceptable to way out of bounds.

      1. Job-Seeker*

        What do you think I should do? It’s for an office manager role. So… I’m not super sure why they’re having me do it. Maybe call and get more details? I hesitate because I am pretty direct and would likely end up telling them how I feel about it.

        1. fposte*

          That seems highly excessive for an office manager. What do you want to do? Do you want the job enough to perform these tasks? Do you know what details would matter to you in deciding–do “details” really mean “pay”? If you can email rather than call, that’s generally better anyway, but I’m wondering what’s going on with their hiring.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      If it is something that would take more than an hour, yes quite possibly.

      It is normal to be asked to write answers, especially for government jobs, journalism jobs, communications jobs, etc., where writing and providing a writing sample is normal. I applied for a FedJob and the application took me almost 2 hours to complete! It may also be normal to create a Powerpoint and give a short, fairly basic presentation about yourself or a pitch of say a sample communication plan for ProductX. It’s also normal in creative jobs to create a simple design project (like a 1-pager) or have a design or writing test.

      But with these things, they tend to be fairly easy and not overly time-intensive. Like I said, something that could be realistically completed in 1 hour or 1-1/2 hours tops. They also should generally come after phone screens or in-person interviews as they narrowing-down the applicant pool and not first-round. So, if it’s something like a 3 or 4 hour project it is a waste of the applicants time or they might be trying to get work for free.

      1. Job-Seeker*

        It’s for an office manager job. So… I don’t know. That’s good to know though that an hour would be acceptable but 3+ is overstepping.

          1. MissDisplaced*

            I also find this to be an unusual requirement for an office manager job. Will it be part of your duties to prepare PPT presentations ir reports for the executives or something?

            I’m not clear if they’re testing your ability to use PPT or just want to see your thought process when given an assignment.

              1. valentine*

                What’s important is what’s acceptable to you. You don’t want to do all this. Are you willing do one of the long answers? Are you willing to do more if you know more about the job, especially the pay? You can tell them that and see how it shakes out.

    3. RocklandDrive*

      Powerpoint presentation? Why?
      If they doubt you, have them test you. There are online assessments.

      I don’t know any office manager that has to make Powerpoint presentations.
      It is not as if you were in sales.

        1. RocklandDrive*

          Not a red flag?

          In most offices, the office manager handles everything clerical.
          I haven’t come across a office manager that needed to make a Powerpoint presentation.
          Perhaps create one for the “boss” based on the boss’ instructions.
          But from scratch on a specific topic. No.

  141. Taryn*

    So a question about job titles on resumes.

    I have about 5-6 years experience in a small niche field, mostly at the same company, and I managed, perhaps prematurely, to earn myself an Assistant Director and then Director-level title. The problem is — at most other companies, I wouldn’t have the experience to support another director-level position, even if I stayed within the niche area of my field. I’m now moving out of that niche area to more populous verticals of my field, and I’ve been job-searching since January and recently met with some staffing agencies and recruiters to get some help. I heard concerns about my most recent job title from both agencies, and one of them actually suggested that I update my resume to list a different job title on my most recent position, because I might be losing out on opportunities from potential employers that are assuming I’m looking for a much bigger salary than I actually am. (The salary I was making at a director-level position was probably equitable to what an associate-level position might make in other areas of the field.) This makes absolute sense to me, and I’ve actually had the concern wondering if my previous titles are just giving people the wrong idea about me. But is it weird or inaccurate to fudge the job titles on my resume? I know that inflating a job title would be an immediate no-no, but I’m not sure the best way to go about this in a manner that feels ethical but that also helps in my job search. I don’t want to deceive anyone! I just want them not to write me off with false impressions.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can address this in your cover letter. That, unlike your résumé, is supposed to contextualize your application. Why are you looking for that position at that company? What do you have to offer them?

      I went from an Assistant Director at school to a receptionist at another school. It can be done. I wouldn’t fudge the job titles. Those are the titles you had. Just be accurate in your bullet points about what your actual responsibilities were, and in your cover letter, explain why you’re looking for non-director jobs (or that specific non-director job you’re applying to).

  142. AnotherAlison*

    Do any of you have people show up to project meetings with nothing to take notes with? There is a guy in my department who does that regularly, even though he is the key person most likely to have an action item. He doesn’t bring a laptop either. He has a phone, but not like a Galaxy Note where he can use a stylus. I take notes and distribute them, but I can’t always get everything down when I’m also running the meeting. I know I should have brought it up earlier, but I have already spent a lot of energy correcting this person on numerous other things and he’s changing departments next week anyway, so the ship has sailed.

  143. StarStarStar*

    I want to quit my job without having another one lined up. I know this goes against every logical form of advice, but I am pretty miserable.

    I relocated away from a city I loved under the promise of a promotion within 1 year. After my 1 year was up, they stated that budget didn’t allow for the creation of the new, higher-level role and to stay patient. This was frustrating but otherwise I still liked my job and my company. After year 2, my company fired my boss that hired me, and re-orged me under a new boss that I have had a tumultuous relationship with. With the promise of a promotion long gone, my new boss encouraged me to keep working hard and “be patient” and that they’d create the higher level role for me when the budget allowed. In this time, I have been given nothing but stellar reviews of my work, and I am known for having fiercely loyal team members. When I asked for feedback on how I can be improving, I have been given no feedback, and just told to “be patient”. Now at the end of year 3, they did create that new role… and gave it to someone else in my company. They didn’t post the role or give me an opportunity to apply. That was pretty gutwrenching. It’s pretty clear they have been stringing me along and not giving me the necessary feedback I need to improve in order to move up. My reputation is also marred internally, because now people are wondering why I was not given the promotion– so no one wants to hire me internally.

    To top it all off, I know I have not handled the news of the missed promotion well. It was unfortunately timed with a 360 review, and I received a lot of truly awful comments, like “I do not trust StarStarStar” and “StarStarStar creates issues for themselves” and “StarStarStar has one way of interacting with people, and it causes ill will among others”, etc. I know I have screwed up with those in my company, but I can’t turn back time. I’m not going to change the mind of all these people and I’m stuck in my current job. My job requires me to lead crossfunctional teams and I’m finding it really hard to stay above depression when I know that no one likes me *and* any work I put in is not going to further my career.

    That all being said. My SO wants me to quit without anything lined up. I don’t particularly want to work here anymore given all of the above. We are in a very stable financial position that would allow me to not work – perhaps indefinitely – but that’s not the long term plan obviously. So I guess I’m seeking reassurance and permission that it will all be OK and I’m not completely out of my mind.

    1. Psyche*

      It is definitely ok to quit without something lined up if you can afford it financially! Don’t stay somewhere that you are unhappy just because you feel like you are supposed to. That will only burn you out and make it harder to find another position. The mental toll of working somewhere you are unhappy is real.

      1. StarStarStar*

        Thank you so much, your comments mean a lot. The idea of “working because you are supposed to” is what is tripping me up right now. This is a decision I can’t undo and makes me very scared to pull the trigger. Ugh.

    2. Gaia*

      If you can afford it financially, it is fine to quite without something else lined up. If you intend to return to work, I might recommend doing “something” during the time you aren’t working (small business, volunteer, take classes, etc) so you have an answer to “what have you been doing” when you interview. And think about answers to why you left this job (it helps if you are doing something so you can say “I wanted to take some time to travel/dedicate my time to volunteering at X/help care of elderly family member/finish my degree”)

      1. StarStarStar*

        Thank you so much for your comments. You’re right – I have been thinking a lot about how to answer that question. Obviously what I have shared above won’t be suitable to a new employer.

        I will definitely be doing something – I want to try doing Rover and/or Door Dash for a while. Basically they are jobs where I won’t interact with many people, and I want to see if something that is more individual contributor and less team/project management is more up my alley.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      Quit. Take time for you. Volunteer, rediscover passions. Travel. Do things that make you happy. It will all be okay.

    4. yeine*

      while i wouldn’t make a hobby out of it, if you can quit your horrible job and still be financially stable, you should just do it.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I normally would say not to UNLESS you really can afford to have one of you not working.
      But if you can realistically afford this, then it’s absolutely ok to quit and devote your time to finding something else you’ll like.

      I would suggest you and your SO really sit down and discuss the ramifications of this though. Who will be paying for what, what your contribution will be while not working, how long you’ll expect not be working, and how you’ll manage healthcare and such. Finances have messed up many a relationship and this can sour quickly for the one acting as breadwinner. Best to be in agreement before you quit.

      1. StarStarStar*

        Thank you. I think my biggest financial concern is that of the two of us, I bring in the higher income right now. We are both very successful and have high incomes, but up until now we had be kind of following my career / salary path as the one that would be bringing in the top dollar. This will be a huge change to that. I think we can handle it, financially, but will be tough for my psyche. You’re right that we should talk about my contribution while not working, even if it’s just cleaning and cooking and whatnot.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I say that because I supported my SO for a long time while he was in school. It didn’t always go well, even though I did support his education. Plus, he was terrible about helping out around the house (fact is he makes lots of messes) and it did lead to some animosity on my part. So just be clear about what the expectations are financially and domestically and realistically.

          Are you planning to job search immediately or take time off? I mean, it’s possible you will find another job quickly, but I’ve been finding it can take 3-4 months of searching. Could you line up some temp or part-time freelance work after you quit to kind of tide you over and give you a little financial independence? Also, don’t forget to get your references in line and prepare everything you can (doctor/dental appointments, etc.). The worst thing is to quit in a huff, no matter how horrible the job. From what you’ve said about the job though, I sure don’t blame you for wanting to leave ASAP-but you know, get your duckies in a row. Best of luck!

          1. StarStarStar*

            Good points, thank you. Regarding references – I’m ashamed, but nearly every relationship I have at current job is damaged. I can’t think of a single person who would give me a positive reference. Isn’t that awful? I have totally, royally, screwed this one up. I’m thinking I need to start over completely in a new industry or at least new career path in my current industry. Doing temp work might be the best path to self-discovery for now, and would definitely help me build up some positive references.

    6. Anonygrouse*

      If you and your SO can afford it, it is definitely OK! Just an anecdote, but when I left my old toxic job, my (actually great) supervisor resigned shortly thereafter with nothing lined up. The break has made her SO much happier since she gets to spend time with people who actually, y’know, value her and treat her well. And once she was ready to start searching, things went better than they probably would have otherwise because she felt better about herself and wasn’t desperate to get out of a bad situation. Good luck!

      1. The Curator*

        Yes. Leave that job. Schedule time off like a sabbatical. Have a regular daily schedule. Get a physical. Perhaps even some therapy to reflect on the job experience in a positive way. Try new things like join a Y and take a class. Do something out of the ordinary- even if you aren’t bringing in money- like a cooking class in Boston or birdwatching in Key West. Not being the lead gives your SO the permission to explore opportunities that they might not have had. Read professional development books. Get a puppy. (oh, that was my dream)

        1. StarStarStar*

          Thank you both very much. I don’t really know what I want to do next, but what I’m doing clearly isn’t it. I’m quite good at actual deliverables but it seems like I pretty much suck in the emotional intelligence department. The stress of my job hasn’t given me much time to think about what I really want to do next, so maybe some time away from working would be good. Doing something totally “crazy” like taking a cooking class would probably be great for my soul right now.

  144. Gaia*

    So I accepted a new job working in our local government and I am all excited and it is closely related to my private-sector field and it is good, stable, rewarding, exciting work.

    Except all of a sudden I am terrified. My type of work comes in two areas: non-technical and technical. They overlap a lot and the two work incredibly closely so non-technical often have moderate technical skills and technical often have moderate non-technical skills. I’ve always been in the non-technical camp and my new role is firmly in technical. I’m excited because I’ve wanted to make this move for awhile but scared because I definitely do not have as sharp of skills as I’d have if I had always been technical. And I’m going to be working with people who have always been technical and have advanced degrees that support their skills and….what if I fail?

    To be fair, I know this is a little crazy. The team knows my background and was specifically looking for someone with my skillset and a non-tech background because they need a different perspective and I have enough of the skills to be competent and will quite likely pick up new skills. But I have never taken a leap like this before and I’m just a little terrified.

    Help.

  145. Stuff*

    I need to figure out how to get my boss to back off. I have to move out of the family home in Town C because my grandmother died, and I’m looking where to move. Town C is 11 miles from my job in City B, and the bus ride is an hour and a half, with unreliable service that shuts off by 6PM (I don’t have attendance issues at work, but the bus agency is a constant frustration). I want to move to City A, a notoriously expensive city two hours away from work by rail (the train is very reliable, and the last trip out of City B is late at night). The bus trip from Town C is extremely bumpy and miserable, the trip from City A is pretty smooth and comfortable. I lived in City A on my own for 3 years, and I was born and raised in City B. City A has great public transit, City B is slashing service, and is in the same agency as Town C. Although City A is a longet commute, it’s also a comfortable one where I can read, surf the internet, or play video games, whereas my current commute is too bumpy to read easily, and I had a two hour commute for 2 years. I can handle it. What I value is reliable service, late night service (this is huge for me), and a smooth enough ride to read. The railroad between City A and City B provides these things well, and I’ve learned from experience that means I can tolerate a long commute.

    My boss, however, has been extremely vocal about wanting me to move to City B, as has my coworker, amd I’m starting to lose my patience with it. Especially since this was a conversation before my grandmother died (I wasn’t supposed to live with her long term, just while I got on my feet out of university, so me moving has been discussed before), and now I just don’t want to have it, but also don’t want to be a jerk. I have spent years living in City A, City B, and Town C. I am deeply familiar with all of them. City A is what I want in life. Thing is, my job itself works well for me, and I go to graduate school in City B near this job, so living in City A and working in City B makes sense. I’ll be travelling to City B all the time, regardless. I just need to get my boss to understand that, if I can read or game on the train and leave City B at 10:30 at night, a long commute is fine with me. It’s the bumpy, unreliable, no-night-service commute I have now that drives me nuta.

    1. fposte*

      This is a weird thing for your boss to be invested in and it sounds like the discussion has gotten to a weird level of detail to boot. “Boss, I’m not comfortable talking about my living arrangements at work any more. Thanks for understanding.” Whatever you do, don’t go into the relative merits of Cities A through Z, as it just reinforces the notion that this is all appropriate discussion matter with her.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, stop having the conversation. If they press and press, broken-record them with “It’s sorted” or something and get back to discussing work or your colleague’s pets. It’s none of their business. They may need to know if you can arrive early or stay late, but not the details. It sounds onerous enough to leave.

        If you’re hourly, can you do some work whilst commuting?

    2. anonykins*

      Honestly I’d stop discussing your living situation with your boss. If your boss brings it up, keep it vague and non-committal – try variations on “Oh, I’m still thinking about it!” or “There are so many options, I just haven’t decided yet.” If they keep pushing, I’d move to Captain Awkward’s “Hmmn, that’s interesting” or “I’ll think about it” (you will, for a second, before you file it away as useless advice). The goal is to make it pretty boring to talk about this

      1. Kathenus*

        Very much this. Just take boss and coworker out of the conversation loop about relocating. It’s none of their business, but if you discuss it with/around them, you now know that they will get too invested in trying to have a say. Stop giving them a platform to do so and decide whatever works best for you.

    3. OtterB*

      I think the only reasonable concern your boss could have would be that the longer commute would end up causing you to switch jobs. So you could say (one final time) that you’ve done long commutes before and that you are sure this will work for you. Then, as others suggested, take the topic off the table for conversation with your boss and coworker. “I’ve got it handled, thanks.”

  146. Confederate flags*

    Any tips on dealing with a new co-worker displaying Confederate flags in their cube? For clarity we are in the North but in a backwoods area / industry where it is generally acceptable, but I find it to be incredibly racist.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish I had good advice. If the area/industry finds that kind of blatant racism acceptable, complaining to the co-worker who hung it up or to management probably won’t help. I’d probably be looking for another job in another area, but you may not have that option.

    2. fposte*

      Holy crap. That would be *huge* at my workplace. Do you have an HR to talk to this about? “Acceptable in the area” doesn’t mean “acceptable in the office.”

    3. Antilles*

      The best I can suggest is to focus on the political implications of the symbol. Not the meaning itself, but simply that a large number of people have very strong political opinions on the confederacy. Something like:
      We don’t hang candidate political banners in your window or cubicles during the election because of the concerns* and I think this is in the same ballpark – hanging a confederate flag brings such emotion and arguments that I just really think it’s something we should stay away from. If he wants to put it in his truck, that’s fine, but it’s really just divisive enough that we probably don’t want to have that in the office.
      *I’m assuming this is true – if it isn’t, then you’re going to have to just roll your eyes and live with it, because there’s no way your company is going to care about a Confederate flag.

      1. valentine*

        I like what you did there, Not Today.

        Ideally, you could set the flags on fire. Spray-paint them white, like their final flag.

  147. QuittingQuestion*

    I have been in my job less than a year (2 months shy) and plan to quit by Christmas for a variety of reasons, the biggest one being that I’m insanely micromanaged. The thought of staying here longer seemed so untenable. How do I phrase that I need to leave to my boss? I’ve always had better reasons before (moving, grad school, etc.). What do I say without being too honest?

    1. Vera*

      “I’ve learned a lot working here, thank you for the opportunity. I’m leaving to pursue other opportunities and my last day will be X.”

      If they press for more details about why you are leaving or if they can make you stay (with more money, title change, etc.) you can just say that your decision has been made and you’re looking forward to your new opportunity.

    2. Doug Judy*

      “I got an opportunity I could not pass up” is all you need to say. Even if said opportunity is just not having to deal with Terrible Boss anymore.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Why don’t you want to be honest? I mean, you could just say “The position has changed and/or is no longer for me.” Or, “I feel I would perform better in an environment that has more autonomy.”

      At my OldJob I was pretty blunt about why I was leaving. “The job duties have changed to the point where I am no longer doing what I was hired to do.” But if you feel you can’t be honest sure, go with the “offer I can’t refuse” line.

  148. anonykins*

    I got called in to my boss’s office in person to be told I didn’t get a promotion, and I didn’t cry! This is actually a pretty big win for me as I am definitely a crier. He was also very supportive and encouraging and let me know that it was 100% due to a better candidate, and that if I see a similar opportunity in the future I should apply again. I’ve been dealing with a lot of professional and personal rejection lately, so this has really helped me feel like I’m not being totally ridiculous when I put myself out there – honestly my greatest fear is interviewers laughing at my application after I leave because I am under-qualified and delusional. So I’m feeling disappointed (and like I still want to go hide in a hole just a bit), but also somehow better than I did before the interview. Just wanted to share.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Good job. I’m a notorious crier–good stuff, bad stuff. Husband says I cry when our laundry comes back.

  149. Anon here again*

    Any tips on handling obnoxious coworkers? They point and giggle as I walk by. They also talk about me in a foreign language- I know a few words, so I can piece together what they’re saying. Boss doesn’t seem to care.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Flip them the bird. Tell them to F**k off.
      Do you know enough to speak back to them in that language? I’d practice the phrase
      “You DO know I can understand you, you rude bitches. So F**k off!”

      Sorry, I just hate this kind of shit.

    2. Close Bracket*

      > They point and giggle as I walk by.

      Return awkward to sender. Catch one of their eye, smile, and go over and say, “Hey, what’s op? [insert inane topic here].” And beef up your knowledge of the language so you can participate. This will probably just drive their obnoxiousness underground rather than stop it, but there is something to be said for not having to see it.

      1. valentine*

        Finger guns (violation of an anti-violence policy) plus clucking and winking. Maybe a thumbs-up or a “Hey, besties!” Surely your happiness irks them, so Pollyanna away. Don’t let them see they’re hitting their mark.

        Google translate a few platitudes, memes, or just random sentences in the language. This will appear congenial. Best case: you can find the “Bless your heart” of their language.

    4. WellRed*

      If they dont know you understand what they say I’d practice a deadly response in that language and let them have it.

  150. Redux*

    My terrible admin assistant is finally leaving, hooray! My boss should have fired her months ago. Among her many horrors she said the n-word to a black colleague, failed to pick up or put out the mail for two weeks, and sent a couple of people to the wrong city for a conference. Boss didn’t fire her for reasons I believe are related to our accreditation (she is a part-time student in a new masters program at our school and I suspect they want to bolster the graduation rate for the first class). Anyhow, she is leaving, yay! She is billing it as having earned her MA and now moving on to bigger and better things (though we all know it was leave or be fired). I imagine lots of people leave like this — choosing to quit rather than be fired and framing it as “moving on.” Still, I get very annoyed when she chirps on and on about how she has outgrown this position now that she has a masters and is on to do better things and congratulations to me! I try to grin and be happy for her because I am happy for me that she will no longer work here, but man this is annoying. And this week someone recommended we throw her a going-away reception. UM, NO.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t suppose they meant, throw a going-away reception AFTER she leaves? Glad she’s almost outta there!

      1. Redux*

        Ooh, yes, I would attend that reception.

        I’m sure there is a German word for that feeling where someone else’s joy makes you feel miserable? If I spoke any German at all I could probably extrapolate something the inverse of shadenfreude. But truly when she happily tells people about her degree and new position I want to shout out NO! LISTEN TO THIS! and air all her ills. But I don’t. I just grin and say how glad I am. Because I am glad. But I am also rage. Cheers to that!

        1. valentine*

          Resist the urge to correct her fantasy, lest she change her mind. Whatever else happens, as long as she leaves, victory shall be yours. And your Black colleague’s, I hope. You can be plain about “We don’t celebrate -ists here,” if that’s what it takes to quash the party.

  151. nonprofitnancy*

    I’ve been having some issues with my boss – the main one is that she’s not good with boundaries. She’s managed me for a few months and before that, she was new to our org. She’s not very good at maintaining an appropriate supervisor/direct report relationship. Examples include:

    – She frequently tells me office or work-related things that I shouldn’t know (and don’t want to know) and that she should keep to herself as a supervisor, even saying “I really shouldn’t tell you this, but I’m going to anyway.”
    – When I’m in the middle of a work block (part of our office culture), ignoring my sign and coming into my office to give me micromanage-y advice on a small, insignificant detail of a task.
    – When my partner and I moved in together and I told everyone the news and said I was really happy, she made an implied sex joke and then proceeded to give me unsolicited advice about how we should arrange our living situation (ranging from finances to how we should navigate organizing the apartment with two people’s stuff).
    – Not respecting my time when I’m working on a high-priority project and pulling me off to help with non-time sensitive tasks that I’m not responsible for and are not a part of my job.
    – Frequently and consistently asking if I’m okay when I’m anything less than perky and cheery, which makes me feel as though my emotions are being micromanaged too
    – Frequently asking about my personal life and then pushing unsolicited advice on to me, even when I decline.

    I’ve tried to deflect or redirect but I know I should be more assertive and clear about shutting this down. I’m generally too trusting and accommodating with people, so I take responsibility for letting this happen and not being clear about what would be appropriate or not from the start. It is worth noting, however, that I don’t think she does this to her other direct reports. There’s a significant age difference between us, and I have also noticed her behaving in similar ways with other coworkers who are not in our department but are younger than her.

    Does anyone have advice and/or suggested language that I can use to establish appropriate boundaries?

    1. Rey*

      I think it’s time be a lot more direct about your discomfort. Instead of deflecting or redirecting, come up with a couple scripts to keep in mind during your conversations.
      When she tells you work things that you shouldn’t know, “I don’t want to know. Let’s leave it at that.”
      When she interrupts a work block, interrupt her at the beginning and say “This is actually my work block. Once I finish, I’ll check in with you.”
      When you share happy news and she overshares in response, “Woah, I’m not comfortable with that at work. I know you’ll understand.”
      Not respecting time for a priority project, “I’m actually working on X project that has a deadline of Y. I’ll check in with you on (non-time sensitive thing) by the end of the week (or whatever).”
      For your face, Alison has recommended the script of “Can I ask you to stop commenting on my expression? I feel uncomfortable having you remark on it so often.”
      For personal questions, “I’d rather not talk about that at work.”
      And say all of these in a neutral tone that suggests that of course, she accepts this information, because you’re making a totally normal request that she will accept without any dramatics. Hold your line and just keep repeating your scripts. You’ve got this.

        1. valentine*

          Those are all great, Rey.

          I guess you can’t say, “Why are you obsessed with me?”, but how about “You seem oddly focused on me. Let’s stick to work stuff”? If you’re comfortable leaving the room when she persists, that would help. It’s not just that she’s invasive, but how long she keeps at it. Anything you can say to redirect her is probably going to improve this for you.

  152. SquishyCat*

    Any tips on changing your communication style to match a new grandboss?

    I’m a designer and I find it very helpful to get all the details and history I can before I start project. Context is really important and informs how I come up with a successful design. We have a new president at our company and I’ve realized that when I explain the history and context and whys of a proof I’m presenting, they’re taking it as either making excuses or that I’m not hearing or agreeing with what they are saying and that I’m trying to change their mind.

    I’m at a loss for how to change up my entire communication style to better facilitate the work I’m doing for the prez.

    1. Argh!*

      In Myers-Briggs typology, you’re a J (vs. P). The detail you need isn’t going to be the detail that anyone else necessarily needs, especially someone in a different role. You could try making an outline with nested bullet points, and then see how far down the other person wants you to go, and then the next time just leave out that level of detail from your prep. You will get used to it. Remember that grandboss has many other things to deal with and many other people to deal with than you, so what’s a fascinating exposition to you is a time-waster to grandboss.

      I’m a P, and I work with a J. I have stopped asking her why or how something is the way it is because she’s been here for 20 years and she will tell me the whole 20 year history of teapot handles when I was really saying “This is effing insane!” or “Who do I need to hit upside the head to get this teapot handle put on correctly?”

      If you give someone less detail than they need, they will ask for more. If you give them more than they need, they will ask you to put a period on a sentence, or roll their eyes, or tap their watch, or ask you to give them the bottom line… or just avoid talking to you altogether.

      1. Rainy*

        Or they’re a P with Context and probably Input in their top 5 (CliftonStrengths by Gallup).

        I’ve had to learn to rein in my Context when I’m dealing with people who have a lot of Executing strengths (or Futuristic) because they’re simply not interested in the context of something, even when it’s really vital.

    2. Rey*

      It sounds like this happens in a meeting where you present the new design, and then receive comments about possible revisions and explain your design choices. If that’s the case, it sounds like you want to break up your explanation and the comment period. Could you either include your explanation about history and context during your presentation of the design, or could you provide your design, including your notes about history and context, the day before the meeting in an email? They would have your explanation during their initial review, and could decide from there what revisions they want.

    3. Kathenus*

      First, kudos for recognizing this and realizing that the best path for success for you is to try to find alignment with the communication styles! Second, sometimes the direct approach is best. Ask what type of background and context they would like with a presentation. And I’d suggest this as a general conversation, not related to a specific presentation or design. Not sure if it’s best to have this talk with your boss or grandboss, depends on the culture, but I think it’s hard to go wrong with saying that with a new president you’d like to learn what type of information and communication they prefer for these presentations.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I say this as a designer myself, your design should stand on it’s own without an explanation — the audience should be able to “get it” without one. I understand why you do it though. When I do something that I think is particularly clever or has a history to it, I want to share the story too. And in design classes and with other designers we often discuss our whys and hows. But IME most non-designers don’t care why you chose a particular typeface or the color blue and what the color theory behind it might be. They just like purple and want you to use that. Try being really selective on picking only important “battles” over your design.

  153. Close Bracket*

    I have a “What is your expected salary?” conversation to share:

    For context, I was talking on the phone to someone who was either in HR or was an admin in the group in question (her role wasn’t entirely clear to me, and it could have been either). It was the first phone conversation, and it is at Very Large Company, think 10s of 1000s nationwide, a few thousand locally.

    She asked me my desired salary, and I said, “I last lived in Very Expensive State and worked for a non-profit, so I’m not entirely calibrated on how that would compare locally. I am sure Very Large Company pays competitively, so salary is not my primary concern. If I had exciting work and exciting coworkers, I’m sure everything would fall into place.” And she accepted it! I know saying you don’t know your salary range makes you seem clueless, but it worked, and the most successful strategy is the one that gets you the results you want.

    Then I asked, “I notice the job description says it is X level. Do you know the salary range for that level?” She said things like, “It’s really wide,” and hemmed and hawed a little more. I stayed silent, and eventually she said, “It would be around $Y-Z, with a signing bonus.” And I said, “That’s about what I expected,” which was true. Note: I’ve never gotten a signing bonus in my life, so that news thrilled me.

    Btw, the wording I used was recommended in a podcast that I can’t remember. They called it the stop, drop, and roll strategy, and the wording, “if everything else is great, the salary will not be an issue,” wording is their recommendation. They recommended asking a question to change the subject.

    I hope that gives someone some inspiration for their next salary discussion.

    1. Dragoning*

      Ooof, I feel like I just bombed this question on a phone interview recently because I’m currently hourly and gave my salary requirement in per-hour.

      Interviewer asked what that would work out to, yearly, and first off–really? This isn’t a math position why are you testing my mental math skills on the spot. The number I gave was a bit lower than the actual value, because I rounded so much trying to do it in my head with my phone occupied.

      Gah.

    2. CAA*

      That’s great! I do think it makes more sense to say this to a large company though. They have salary bands by level and required reporting to the EEOC and an HR team to oversee a lot of this stuff. If you said that to a small startup, you might find yourself with a really low offer.

      1. Close Bracket*

        Yeah, the position level isn’t always in the description. In fact, it’s almost never there. Sometimes you can figure it out by job title, like you can figure out that principal is higher than senior, for example. If I hadn’t known the level, I would have said something else. No single script is going to work for all job descriptions or companies.

  154. Abrupt joke ending who?*

    Does anyone have thoughts on whether or not to connect personal devices to your employer’s wifi?

    I am reluctant because at my last job, an entire team was abruptly fired for violating the company’s Acceptable Use Policy. However, it was for sending inappropriate images and messages to each other via company email, nothing to do with wifi. But that day I stopped using my work desktop for anything not strictly related to business, and disconnected my phone from the company wifi, because I knew they were watching me.

    I also started job searching and I’ve been in my new job for 3 years, at a much better place. Should I relax my rule?

    1. Argh!*

      Do they have a written policy that you had to sign on Day 1? Nobody ever remembers that Day 1 stuff. If you can’t find it, ask HR for a new copy and review it. You can only be (fairly) reprimanded for something that’s against the stated rules. Apologizing for violating an unwritten rule is usually the only consequence of violating one.

    2. Rey*

      Yes, I connect my iPhone to my employer’s wifi. It sounds like your cause for concern is an issue that was totally separate from wifi, so I wouldn’t focus too much on your former coworkers’ experience. If you are concerned about it right now, you could also read the Acceptable Use Policy for your current employer just to ensure that your internet use is in line with their policy.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I have a company cell and a personal tablet that has company email, skype, cloud drives, etc. under the BYOD policy, and I use my company laptop for minimal personal use.. as in really minimal I don’t even check personal email on it, but I will use it for shopping and things. So yes, you could say that my personal devices are connected to the company wifi. I’m not worried about it. I am pretty strict about what I do and don’t do. The tablet has really blurred the lines between work and personal, but I’m not worried about anything that would result in discipline.

      My company used to be pretty militant about wifi access for personal devices for security reasons. Non corporate issued devices were not allowed on the network unless a guest logon and password were issued (and could only be issued for up to 7 days at a time). They’ve recently given up on that and established two new wifi systems so we have 4 in total now. So I guess it’s even easier to track personal use since it has it’s own network.

      1. work (not really named this, but you get the idea) -laptops, computers, servers, etc only
      2. work-guest (this is the one that you need the temp credentials for)
      3. work-mobile – work issues cells, byod devices, and strictly personal devices
      4. work-devices – company issued devices that need wifi (printers for example)

      I’d say you are probably ok to relax your rule and connect your personal device, but keep the rules about what you do on the network.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      If you connect your personal device to your company’s Wi-Fi, the company can monitor the traffic. They also may have certain agreements with their ISP as to what is acceptable to be done on their network (in terms of types of traffic or just bandwidth), so if your personal use contributes to that violation, that could be an issue.

      But, in most cases, I’d say it’s probably a non-issue.

      Use a VPN if you’re worried about privacy. Of course, you have to trust that VPN as well, then.

    6. anon24*

      My last job I didn’t, because I knew they could monitor my use and I didn’t trust them. My current job the computer policy is literally “you can do whatever you want just remember we can see everything you do”. My IT guy is super chill so I don’t worry about it.

    7. ..Kat..*

      You know they are watching you. They can access anything you do on their WiFi. I recommend not relaxing at all. Do not use their WiFi for your personal devices.

  155. Anon Anon*

    For those of you who have been pregnant when you started a new job, how did you manage maternity leave? Did your new employer give you 6-12 weeks (paid or unpaid) even though you weren’t covered by FLMA? Or did you need to take an abbreviated leave of only a couple of weeks?

    1. CAA*

      I’ve been on the other side of this a few times with two different companies. Both employers gave the pregnant employees as much unpaid time off as they wanted to take and when they returned, they either had the same or a substantially similar job (e.g. might be on a different team after returning, but have the same job title and salary). Also, I’m in California, which has paid family leave, so even if someone doesn’t qualify for unpaid FMLA leave, they may still qualify for the CA PFL.

      In the cases I recall, I think the longest leave was about 3 months. If someone had wanted us to hold their job for a year or more, we might have made a different conversation.

    2. Beatrice*

      I took just under 6 weeks of unpaid leave. I was medically unable to take much less. Even though they seemed okay with accommodating my leave, I was worried they’d change their minds and dump me once I was gone. I have now worked at the same company for 14 years, and yeah, I didn’t need to worry, they wouldn’t have done that.

      The Pregnancy Discrimination Act prevents employers from treating medically necessary time off for pregnancy and delivery any differently from any other kind of health issue, and it applies more broadly than FMLA (lower minimum number of employees, no previous hours worked requirement). Essentially, if they’d give an employee 6 weeks of unpaid leave to recover from a serious car accident, for example, they can’t refuse to give you the same time off to deliver a baby. And some states have more generous allowances than FMLA for maternity leave, so don’t forget to check what you might be eligible for there.

  156. Happily anon*

    Does anyone know where I can find true stories of people who sued their employers? I realize they’d be anonymous. Tried reddit, saw nothing there. Googling got me no where.

    1. CAA*

      Are you looking for lawsuits on a specific topic? I just googled “true story sued employer” and got a lot of hits. Many of them are newspaper or magazine articles written by reporters.

      You can also look at eeoc.gov or osha.gov. Their news feeds are full of info about the government suing or citing employers on behalf of workers.

      If you’re looking for “in his own words…” type of pieces, I don’t know of any repository.

  157. Cat Herder*

    I have a job interview next week. The HR person dug a little too far into my linked in for mutual contacts, and now my boss and a higher up know I’m looking. One of the selling points of the job is that the company takes the security/privacy of their data seriously… I usually keep linked in locked down but was recommended by a friend to open it a bit since they use it heavily in recruiting.

    I’m not psyched to go interview now and am leaning towards withdrawing my application. My colleague and mentor still want me to go, but I’m not feeling like touting a company who just committed a major professional faux pas. What would you do? I recognize it’s normal to dig through social media, but outing me to my boss, and BEFORE an interview? This is super icky to me.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I would withdraw and tell them exactly why, and I would throw in the bit about how I assumed the company’s policy on privacy extended to candidates but it clearly did not in this case. What was the HR person thinking??

      That sucks, I hope your boss isn’t too put out!

    2. Kathenus*

      Two very different ways you could go. 1) Withdraw and tell them why, deciding that you don’t want to work somewhere that would do this, 2) With the ‘damage’ already done as it were (meaning your boss already knows), and not knowing if this is a company ethics issue or one bad apple, proceed with the interview to get more information to use to decide. Really up to you on which avenue works best for you.

      1. Cat Herder*

        Thanks. Trying to decide if it’s worth my time and energy to interview. Otherwise the job itself is a good fit and and I was really excited about it before this happened.

        I suppose I could treat it like an informational interview.

        1. Cat Herder*

          I’m also just coming out of another interview at smaller company with similarly awesome culture but less pay and job I’m overqualified for.

          The HR person there seemed embarrassed when I brought in a form because I didn’t want to email my SSN. She was grateful and said out loud in front of their VPs that they don’t need it and she was going to prioritize updating the form.

        2. CAA*

          If you think the job might be a good fit, and it’s not wildly inconvenient, I’d say go to the interview. Even if you end up deciding not to take the job if offered, you’ll at least have gotten some additional practice at interviewing, which never hurts.

          I do think you should tell the interviewer and/or the HR person that you found it very unprofessional of them to inform your current supervisor that you are job hunting and say that while you understand that reaching out to mutual acquaintances for informal references is just part of the hiring process, you expected them to be much more discreet and refrain from contacting your current employer until you were much closer to a formal offer. If they are not absolutely mortified and falling all over themselves to apologize to you for this breach of your trust, that will tell you a lot about them. Also, if they don’t apologize, this can go on Glassdoor to let other candidates know what might happen.

          1. Cat Herder*

            Thanks, I also don’t want to make my friend look bad by withdrawing, but I also don’t want to waste everyone’s time, this is a long interview with several people kind of place.

            1. Cat Herder*

              Well, I went ahead with the interview, the job isn’t quite what I thought, which was disappointing. The HR rep wasn’t on my list, so ill going to follow up with them when this is all over. Thanks for everyone’s input.

  158. Poll Worker*

    I’ve worked as an election worker for a couple of years, and have always been highly regarded by my supervisors, and got quickly promoted to leading a precinct within a couple of elections. Is that something I could put on my resume?

    What about using my superiors as references (with their permission, of course)?

    I’ve only had two actual jobs, and one is my current one that doesn’t know I’m searching, and the other was retail with vindictive owners and managers I’ve lost contact with. I’m trying to find SOMETHING contactable that prospective employers can use.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Sure, I don’t see why not. It sounds like you’ll be able to demonstrate a lot of marketable skills with that position. Yes, absolutely use your superiors as a reference.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, you can put on your resume. But try to frame it in terms of transferrable skills for the roles you’re going after.
      • Supervised x volunteers
      • Organized A, B and C which led to an increase in XXX registrations
      Etc.
      And yes, you can use those superiors as a reference.

  159. Roja*

    So I got myself into a difficult situation this week and I’d like some advice. I’m going to do my best to be brief, but this might be long. I finish grad school in a few weeks and hubby and I are making plans to move this summer away from our current rural area to a place where there’s actually full-time work in my field (dance). Although he’s currently employed in a job he likes, it’s tangential to his desired field and so we’re hoping to find a city where we can settle down and both be happy.

    For a long list of reasons, we’ve chosen Cleveland, OH and plan to move there this summer even without jobs, if necessary (yes, we’re prepared to do that). I have professional connections there, and I’m well qualified for and good at my job, so I have no worries I’ll be able to find work. We are not, however, totally locked into Cleveland, so I check job boards (nearly useless in dance, but worth a shot) now and then in other nearby cities just for giggles.

    Enter Wednesday. I found a job near Syracuse, NY, just under two hours away from where we live now. I submitted my resume on a whim, figuring it would disappear into the void like most resumes seem to on Indeed. Nooooope. Got an email less than five minutes later and had a phone interview an hour after that. They’re looking for someone to A) take on a evening’s worth of classes to replace a retired teacher for the rest of the school year and B) someone to stay on permanently, FT or near enough with possible benefits, and head up their ballet department and potentially start a modern dance department. The phone interview went well, and I’ve got a real interview tomorrow. They seem like a good place to work, and they’re totally desperate to find someone. They’ve been looking for months and have students ready to leave if a qualified teacher can’t be found–understandable, but I’m sure very stressful from a studio owner’s perspective.

    Here’s where things get sticky. Like I said, I applied on a whim thinking maybe I could fill in the rest of the year. Hubby and I don’t really want to move to Syracuse long-term, and although the job is exactly what I’m looking for, I don’t want to move to a city that’s lacking pretty much everything we were hoping for when I haven’t even started my job search in earnest yet (this will be Jan/Feb/March, when studios make schedules for the upcoming year). I’m wary of taking the first job I applied for, even if it’s a good job, when it’s not in a great location and I don’t know if hubby can find work there. And I especially am wary considering I haven’t even had a chance to interview anywhere else–aka, in the place I’d actually like to move to.

    Any advice would be appreciated. I feel bad they’re having trouble finding someone, and the job does sound like a good fit, but… hubby and I have things we’re looking for in our new location and Syracuse meets very few of those. So I’m not sure how to phrase this or what even to say tomorrow.

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      This reminds me of what I’ve often thought when things like this happened to me…
      “Life has a way of ruining the best plans, sometimes for the good and sometimes the bad”

      Go to the interview. Learn about the job and then discuss with your husband what you want to do. This came up really quick so I’m sure you haven’t had as much time to get used to this idea. It sounds like you’ve had some time to ponder Cleveland. Going to an interview does not mean you are obligated to take the job.

      Don’t commit to or rule yourself out of anything. If things with the interview go well, maybe there’s an opportunity to commit to a short tenure there which would give you an opportunity to continue looking in Cleveland for a long term position. It may also give the studio some breathing room to find a long term teacher.

      Even if it goes well but you ultimately decide that it’s not right for you, well you haven’t lost anything but interview time.

      Good luck in whatever direction you head!

      1. Roja*

        Thank you, that’s really helpful. I figure at least it’s interview practice, and encouraging that I’m marketable enough for people to want me!

    2. Psyche*

      Why not tell them that you are interested in a short term position but not a long one. That could be mutually beneficial if they desperately need someone to fill in for the rest of the year and gives them time to find someone for next school year. It would also give you a job while you look for something in Cleveland. Alternatively, you could tell them that you would rather not commit long term until you have lived in Syracuse for a few months and can see if the city is a good fit for you but that you can commit to (insert amount of time you are actually willing to commit). Maybe they won’t be interested in that, but if they really need someone it could work out.

      1. Roja*

        Thanks for this. I was kind of leaning towards telling them yes for short-term no for long, but wasn’t sure how that would come across.

    3. Nanc*

      Hmmm. Would this job look good on your resume? Would it be a good boost to you as a professional? Would it open up networking opportunities for the future? Would it make you super-appealing to potential employers in Cleveland (or whatever area you move to later on)? What are the benefits like?
      It might be worth taking if you and your husband could find a way to make it work. Could he keep his current job and work remotely while he looks for another job? Even if this area doesn’t have everything you want long term, would it be worth moving and staying 3-5 years as a good stepping stone to the next step of your career?
      Good luck with the interview–at the very least it’s good practice.
      Let us know how it goes.

      1. Cat Herder*

        Would it be worth it to go to Syracuse for just year or two? Ok, if it isn’t, but might not be an option you considered.

      2. Roja*

        The answers to the first paragraph are all definite yeses. The chance to head up a ballet program is a good one. Hubby might be able to work remotely, actually, and he’s discussed that with his employer already (long notices are customary there). The problem with staying only a few years is that I’m also looking to be part of a performing collective or company, and Syracuse doesn’t seem to have that. I’ll be 28 next year and my performing years are running, so I’m reallllly reluctant to lose a chunk more years. I’ve already lost a lot living where I am for hubby’s job. And more professional experience will lay groundwork for me to be much more competitive when I’m older.

        1. curly sue*

          As a dance teacher, mind you, you’d be in a decent place to begin a performing collective of your own if you wanted to run one. There are a few like that at the dance school my daughter attends, and they use both the school’s performance spaces as well as community spaces for their events. It takes a huge amount of admin work and grant writing and so on, but maybe not an entirely lost cause.

    4. Roja*

      So the comment function is doing something odd; when I submitted this originally, I didn’t see it. I reloaded the page several times, scrolled through all (!) the comments to see if it got misplaced, nothing. So I retyped it all (!!) and reposted, which is when I saw this first one did post after all, but now I don’t see the second try.

      So anyways, apologies for the potential double post. I have no idea what’s going on!

      2. CAA*

        If you post a comment and then you end up at the top of the page, that means your comment has gone into moderation. Sometimes there are issues with the filter and lots of innocuous comments start landing there. In case that happens again, there’s no need to resubmit. It will eventually appear once Alison has approved it.

    5. Kewlmom*

      Not job advice per se, but winters in Syracuse can be particularly brutal which may factor into your decision.

    6. valentine*

      It sounds like you don’t want the job. Unless you’re happy to suggest they look at A and B as two jobs and you’ll gladly take on A with no regrets, I don’t know why you’re moving forward. They don’t sound like they can wait for you to see what’s possible in Cleveland or elsewhere.

      Maybe make a list of must-haves and only apply for jobs that have them.

  160. RocklandDrive*

    How do I write a resume for my life in semi-retirement?

    I am looking now for a job preferably a part-time one in an office environment.
    I am very familiar with Word and Excel and Access and can touch type.

    I am struggling with figuring out how to write a new resume for job hunting.

    Any ideas? PLEASE.

    1. CAA*

      If you were working full-time before you semi-retired, then you probably already have a resume. You should use the same format now, but as with any job search, tweak it a bit to emphasize the skills you want to use in your next role. You can use the Summary statement at the top of your resume to describe what you’re looking for. Your cover letter should also explain that you are looking specifically for part-time work (preferably without actually using the word “retired”).

      1. RocklandDrive*

        The issue is that I worked in a technical field.
        Now, I just want to go in and do clerical work.
        For money to pay for my health insurance.
        Not sure how to present this information.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Keep in mind that even if you are hired for clerical work at a clerical salary, you may find yourself pushed into technical work (but not with a technical salary). Temp agencies might be a good way to go. They often write your resume. Just make sure your resume says what you want it to say (i.e., that it is selling you for the kind of job you want).

  161. RocklandDrive*

    Heather,

    My mother was a bookkeeper until she retired. She was never certified.
    In the online job ads, I don’t see anything about certification.
    I do see some smaller companies requiring experience with Quikbooks.

    What certification are you referring to?

  162. Job-Seeker*

    My last job was really awful and not at all what I want to do (admin work).

    I want to get back into sales, which I did at the job before that.

    Is it better to leave my last job off my resume altogether? Or list it, so my resume doesn’t have a whole year missing?
    (And maybe just leave off the description all together?) What looks the least sketchy?

    Thanks!

    1. The New Wanderer*

      It’s a long enough time you might be better off keeping it on the resume. Is there any way you could spin it so it sounds like you were branching out for new skills that you could apply back to sales? You could also say that you wanted to get a better feel for the type of work that supports sales (if that’s applicable), to make you a more well-rounded candidate.

  163. Roja*

    Well, this is frustrating. I wrote out a long comment and it disappeared when I clicked submit, so here we go again.

    I got myself into an odd situation this week, and I’d like some outside input. Background: I’m finishing up grad school in a few weeks and hubby and I are looking to move in the summer to a place where there’s actually FT work in my field (teaching dance), as opposed to the few hours a week I can wrangle in our current very rural area. For a variety of reasons, we’ve chosen Cleveland, OH–it has everything we’re looking for and we think it’s a place we can both find work in our fields and be happy. We’re prepared to move this summer whether we’ve found jobs or not, but I’m not worried about my finding work. I have professional connections there and I’m qualified for and good at what I do.

    But since we’re not locked in to the idea of Cleveland, I browse job boards (basically useless in my field, but can’t hurt) frequently just for giggles. Enter Wednesday. I found a job two hours away from us, near Syracuse, NY. I applied on a whim, thinking my resume would just fall into the void like so many do. Imagine my surprise when I got an email back less than five minutes later and had a phone interview an hour after that! They’re looking for A) someone to teach an evening’s worth of classes to replace a now-retired teacher for the rest of the year and B) that someone to take over their ballet division and start a modern program in the coming years. They’ve been looking for months (it’s hard to find teachers in this area) and are very desperate; they’ve got a bunch of students that are ready to walk if the studio can’t find a qualified teacher soon.

    Here’s where it gets sticky. The job is a really good fit for me, but the place is not. Hubby and I aren’t that thrilled about Syracuse, and I’m reluctant to take a job in a place that I don’t think will meet our broader needs when I haven’t even started job hunting in earnest (I will in the spring, when studios get their 2019-2020 schedules going) in the place I actually want to move to. But the job does sound like a good fit and a good place to work.

    I have my interview tomorrow; hubby and I are going to check out the area after the interview and see what we think. Thoughts on how to navigate this situation? I feel bad knowing that they’re so desperate, and I don’t mind filling in for the rest of the year if they do offer me the job (which is a definite possibility, but I’m not convinced I want to move there and I for sure don’t want to commit to moving there in the summer before I’ve at least tried hunting elsewhere. Help! What do I say?

    1. LayoffLimbo*

      Sounds like you want to say no because the situation isn’t what you need right now and you feel sad that you want to because the job is so nice. But it sounds like you have solid and reasonable plans in place, so why not stick with them? Think of this as free interview practice and a data point suggesting that you’ll have no trouble finding something next summer!

  164. Afiendishthingy*

    It’s so late I doubt anyone will see this, but I’m super bummed about work today. I started a job at new organization 3 months ago. It was a very fast hiring process, and it became clear early on that neither the company nor I did enough due diligence to ensure it was really a good fit. Our very kind HR director saw I was really struggling and asked if I wanted them to move me to a different program within the agency, because they didn’t want to lose me. The first couple times they asked I said no, I could make it work; the third time I said yes. I moved to my new position in mid-October and it has not been perfect but it has definitely been better. This morning my boss called me while I was driving in. She supervises both my new program and the program I was working in before. She asked if I could cover today in the old program to help with a situation that had come up. I said sure— one day is not a big deal, I’m a team player, and anyway I figured it would help me appreciate my new placement! The day was definitely a good reminder of why I was so desperate to transfer. Then at the end of the day my boss told me she needs me to float between programs, with most of my time being spent in my original program. She says this is temporary – there are a couple of open positions in that program and in the other programs at that location- but there’s no timeline for how long I’m going to be covering.

    I was already in a not great spot with my mental health. I don’t know how long I can make this work. I said yes because it wasn’t really a request but she knows I’m not thrilled. This sucks.

    1. Ella Vader*

      That sounds hard. It does sound like your boss knows that it’s going to be hard for you and that it’s not an ideal assignment of duties from their POV either. Which is good; it means that you don’t have to keep assessing whether/when to complain about it, to get it changed back.

      1. valentine*

        Tell her you have to stop in order to preserve your health. Wait and see what she says. Don’t rush to fill the silence, cave to her needs, or prioritize her feelings as you perceive them. Bonus if a doctor would concur or if you’d rather be managed out than trust this person who’s already led you down the garden path. I always caution people it’s better to job search now than to end up not being able to should you sacrifice your health and lose the job.

    2. Gwen*

      That sounds really stressful, especially because they haven’t given you a timeline for how long you’ll be covering. I think the best you can do is really prioritise mental health during this difficult phase, remind yourself it’s all temporary, and keep an eye out on the job market for other jobs that feel like a better fit. If I were in your shoes, I would also set a timeline for myself—say 3 months—after which I would promise myself that I would take some action (depending on the situation at that stage, this could be asking the boss for an update on timeline, or demanding to be switched back, or starting a serious job search or quitting on the spot.)

    3. LQ*

      Are they open positions they are actively hiring for? Or just …open nebulously? I think just knowing they are in the process of hiring shows a commitment to swing you back over.

      Mean time take care of yourself, strongly recommend leaving work at work if at all possible, changing clothes when you get home, have a hard line of no more work talk after a certain time (10 minutes of venting and then done), and doing things you enjoy that are outside of work to try to remember that you are more than the sum of daily work output.

  165. baitandswitch*

    I just started a new job that I was really excited about. The office is 5 miles from my house so my commute is now 15 minutes instead of my previous hour+ long drive. I mentioned this was a selling point many times during the lengthy interview process. And that the long, unpredictable drive was a big reason for leaving my last role.
    On my first day, I was informed this is a temporary location and we’ll be moving soon, likely to the area of my last job. Everyone else has known this for months and just didn’t disclose during the interview process. So now I’m worried.

    2. CatCat*

      Ohhhhhh, I would be pissssssssssssssed. Commute time is a deal breaker thing for me. Personally, I would quietly resume my job search.

      1. Triplestep*

        Me, too. This is wrong on so many levels.

        Actually, first I’d ask them if they are planning to let you work remote since you’d mentioned about the commute so many times during the interview process.

        1. valentine*

          Asking to remote is a good idea. If they say no, I hope you can find a new job in the area. Do not give up the sweet commute. Time is life.

  166. Molly*

    Need advice quickly! My boss wants me to type an email complaining about another department that we have issues with so that she can then forward my email to senior management. I feel if she has a problem with the other departments manager that she should type it and send it. How do I respond to her if I dont want to be the “fall girl”? Whenever she has an issue with someone, she suggests that my coworkers and I go make formal complaints to HR so that the person is mad at US and not her. She will bug us until we do it. And when we don’t, then she makes your life hell. How do I tell her I dont want to do this without making her mad and “punishing” me? If you need more details I’m happy to give… this is a government career so there may be some I cant give. I LOVE my job, the pay is great and my benefits are incomparable to anywhere else, so giving notice isn’t an option! Thanks!

    1. Triplestep*

      This sound like something my boss would do. She has problems getting along with people, and my one colleague and I end up dong damage control so that people see us as separate from her.

      I would just say that writing that e-mail would be anxiety-provoking for you. I’ve done this before – she can’t really argue with anxiety. That said, I am job-searching like a mad fiend, so you might not want to take advice from someone who is not invested in staying when you clearly are!

      1. valentine*

        Tell HR “Boss is retaliating for qrs” and, in future, “Boss has sent me to report xyz.” Why is HR even sharing who complained?

    2. Beatrice*

      I’ve been the manager asking for this and the individual composing the email. As the manager – what I want isn’t to shift the face of the complaint to one of my staff, I just want a clear, factual, objective statement of the problem from someone who sees it more closely/from a different perspective than I do. I can tell one of my fellow managers or one of our executives that there’s a problem with another team, but my story doesn’t have the same weight if I’m just repeating what I can remember of anecdotes I’ve gathered in passing.

      1. Cat Herder*

        Yeah, for me it’s usually that I’m drafting an email then my boss edits and sends, or proofs before I send and they are CC’d for things that need their attention, but low stakes or not VIP level things that need to be “from” them.

        Is this a new request or have they asked you to do this before? If it’s a new request, it’s ok to ask for context, tone, level of detail to share, etc.

      2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

        Then why not have the employee send it directly to upper management? The “send it to me so I can send it to them” just seems like maybe they want to not say anything themselves and just be the messenger of what someone else thinks.
        She should write her own AND ask the employee to share her version of events.
        It’s the not writing her own AND wanting to see the employee’s first that makes this seem off to me.
        Plus there’s history of her making others the fall guy.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Can you pretend you don’t know what she is talking about? “Gosh, I don’t have a problem with them – sounds as if you have all the details and should write this email yourself.”

  167. Gwen*

    I need advice on how seriously to take a rumour that my senior management have racist attitudes to me. My good friend and colleague—who is very senior—was at a meeting where my management were discussing me and she says she was shocked by their dismissive and hostile tone and felt that there were racist undertones to their approach. (There were no overt slurs or anything.) What do I do with this information now I have it? Quit? Wait and see if these attitudes actually materialise in some unmistakable way? I have felt kind of invisible at work, but never before thought it was race related in any way.

    1. Cat Herder*

      What do you want to do with it? Do you want to quit? You don’t need to decide today.

      I’d probably start being more observant in meetings etc and documenting any weirdness as it happens. That could help you suss out frequency and perpetrators.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, that is awful.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      You trust your friend implicitly right?
      Just to be sure, but it sounds like they described accurately.
      Thing is, you don’t know for sure if was idle talk / isolated incident or indicator of something more serious. I would document this and keep eyes and ears open for other signs of disrespect.

  168. Nines*

    SO MUCH DRAMA at work this week!!

    My boss got “removed” suddenly. They transferred her to a position that looks like a promotion from the outside (at least) but is clearly a demotion. No one knew it was coming. And two days later big boss starts us on a training regimen on how she wants all of us to perform as a “Loyalist Team”. Some of you likely know what that is. It’s a book. I had never heard of it. So hard to bite my tongue. I just want to scream.

    1. Nines*

      AND – I’m resigning next week! I’ve never quit a real “career” job before. I’m so nervous! Any advice on “how to quit” is welcomed.

  169. IrishEm*

    Any advice on answering the “Why do you want to work here” question without being all “I have bills to pay and that’s all” when that is literally the only reason you applied? I have a phone interview Monday that may lead to an in-person on Tuesday and this is bothering me, because I’m not that excited about it, I just don’t want to be completely feckin broke.

    Also, “Why did you leave your last job?” “Well, they made me.” I have been told (by a career advisor no less!) to say it was a temp contract but a quick call to my last place will immediately tell them that’s not the case.
    I was let go because my work style didn’t gel with their expectations and needs. I took too much time with customers, they wanted ppl in and out asap. Like they wanted Speedy Gonzalez and they got Rowan Atkinson from Love Actually, which would be great in some places but not right for the last place.
    I don’t want to lie, throw myself under the bus or look like I’m bitching, and I’ve run out of people irl who know about interviewing and hiring that I can ask. Like, lying and saying it was mat cover/stc when it wasn’t seems too dishonest, or am I overthinking things?

    1. CAA*

      You need to find something attractive about the job you applied to and use that as the reason you want to work there. “I enjoy doing x and the job description sounded like I’d have an opportunity to do that here.” or “I’d really like to work with x tool (or y product)…” or “I’m very interested in the mission of your organization and I’m looking forward to being more involved with work that supports it.”

      For “Why did you leave your last job?”, the answer is “Unfortunately it wasn’t the right fit. They wanted someone who would move customers through the process extremely quickly and I prefer an environment where I can spend more time to make sure that I’ve resolved all their issues (or met all their needs, or whatever).” You don’t have to say they let you go unless you are asked, but don’t lie and say it was a temp job.

      1. Lynne879*

        I agree with CAA’s advice, especially about “why did you leave your last job?” answer.

        I’ll also add to the “Why do you want to work here” question is that you can say something like “I already have experience doing x, y and z at my previous jobs, so I know that I would excel at this job.”

      2. IrishEm*

        Thank you! I really didn’t like the advice I was given about saying it was a temp job, but I was worried that was common practice when my career advisor/case officer recommended it. I’m not big on lying generally, and when it’s something so easy to find out it feels even worse to make the attempt.

        I really appreciate this!

      3. IrishEm*

        I GOT THE JOB!

        I’m kind of surprised that owning up to not fitting the culture of the last place actually worked, but they were really positive all throughout the process. Thank you, I used your turn of phrase verbatim on the phone and in person and I felt much more confident than I would have had I lied and said I was on a mat cover contract.

        *dances*

      1. IrishEm*

        Yeah, it was kind of off-putting, but they wanted ppl in and out, bish-bash-bosh and I wanted to make sure the people were happy with what they got. Fewer ppl returning a few days later angry that their stuff’s wrong. The product is semi-medical (glasses) and when my family got glasses, I could pick my own in about ten minutes but my mother never took less than two hours, and expected customer service that whole time. And Dad veered between the two.

        I went in expecting to deal with my mother-type customers, and treated them that way, as if we had all the time in the world, but that was not what management needed. And from a business pov I get it, it’s the busiest branch in Ireland with the longest opening hours and there’s always a queue, they needed Speedy Gonzalez and they got Rowan Atkinson in Love Actually.

        They were struggling with staff retention and customer surveys were nothing but complaints about too few staff and feeling rushed through the process. My way would have worked in a much smaller place or a place with a slower place, shorter hours or smaller clientele. *shrugs* I eeded to be more of the pushy sales assistant than I liked. I loved that job so much, I had plans for where I wanted my career to take me, but they had specific needs that I wasn’t meeting. (Or wasn’t vocal about meeting. When a customer liked the first pair I picked I didn’t talk about it, but tried to figure out-out how to deal when ppl who needed more time gravitated towards me. I should have celebrated the 5min turnarounds a lot more. Oh, well.)

    1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      There has been. Some in the comments, some in another post. Search this site and you’ll find it. It’s….a little shocking at how tone deaf this dude is.

      1. Lena*

        Wow. One of the comments said something along the lines of
        “Rules on how to go viral”
        1. Outrageous action or behaviour, 2. Deny said outrageous action and behaviour.

        So true in this story.

        Thanks for sharing the link Observer.

  172. Erika22*

    I just started a new job a few months ago, and I’ve been very fortunate to work directly with a few likeminded people who are very invested in diversity, inclusion, etc. The rest of my coworkers are probably also leaning more this way, but I haven’t talked as personally to them so it’s difficult to gauge. On the whole, I was pretty satisfied with the social consciousness of my department, plus our floor is pretty racially diverse and visibly has people of varying faiths. But now that Christmas is so close, a few people decided doing holiday themed department awards would be a cute way to celebrate the end of the year. The awards are all explicitly Christmas/Christian themed, and the google form they sent around to have people vote had an illustration at the top that at first glance is just white people with champagne glasses around a Christmas tree, but on closer inspection has a vaguely racist, possibly Mexican man (large bushy black mustache, red nose, tequila bottle). Ugh.

    While I do celebrate Christmas, it’s in a 100% secular way, so I’m not super comfortable with the awards myself. I’m also pretty used to companies being at least a little more aware that maybe not everyone celebrates Christmas, though maybe I’ve just been lucky. Plus the image, even if the one character isn’t a gross stereotype, doesn’t racially reflect our department at all (though I can see people not realizing the possibly Mexican man is a gross stereotype – I’m of Mexican heritage and am just hyper aware of these things).

    I submitted the anonymous google form with no nominations but a very polite few sentences pointing out all of this in a “can we be more inclusive next year so everyone can participate” kind of way. I’m not quite ready to rock this boat yet as I’m still new, but I feel a little guilty that I’m not being braver about something that’s fairly low stakes.

  173. AnonForThisPost*

    How do you know when you’re ready to take on a manager role?

    I’m working multiple part-time jobs at the moment, but an office manager at one of my job’s just left. While the job hasn’t been posted yet (I suspect HR is waiting until after the holidays to put up this job posting), I’m interested because I’m currently looking for a full-time job & this organization has great benefits & has the dental & health insurance plans I”m looking for.

    However, I know being an office manager requires supervising employees & I’m not sure if I’m at a point in my life where I’m ready to be a supervisor/manager, but I don’t know if I’ll ever be “ready” to manage people. How do you know when you’re ready to be a manager?

    1. Rainy*

      Most places I’ve worked the office manager either didn’t manage any employees or managed maybe a part time receptionist. Are you sure that this one involves managing staff?

      1. AnonForThisPost*

        I know that this office manager role supervises a couple people & they have to attend interviews for hiring, but this department rarely hires new people, so that part I consider a non-issue. In terms of supervising employees, it doesn’t seem to be at the level of the department manager.

        1. Rainy*

          I got pitched into managing people in my last role, and I did a lot of research and just tried to emulate the good supervisors I’d had in the past and avoid the things that seemed like bad management to me. It worked out okay although it was definitely a sink or swim situation. :)

    2. tab*

      I think it’s like having kids. If you wait until you’re ready, you’ll never do it. But, if you have experiences with bad and good managers, and know how you think you would handle the situations that they handled poorly (or well), then you’re ready to start. The more experience you have, the better you’ll get (if you’re working at it). If you follow Alison’s guidelines, you’ll do a better job than the vast majority of managers. I say, “Go for it! No guts, no glory.”

  174. CatMom*

    So I was halfway given a promotion that I’ve been working towards and expecting at work, but on the condition that I be….perfect.

    Literally. I was told that I’m at 98% and I need to be at 100% (I don’t work in medicine or with hazardous chemicals or nuclear weapons or dangerous animals). Furthermore, I’m feeling a little frustrated because I was told to accomplish X and Y, and despite having accomplished those tasks and being praised for doing them, I was then told that actually they now realize they also want me to work on A and B, and also I have to make no mistakes or ask for any support.

    In addition to feeling like the goal posts have been moved a little bit, I’m not sure I’m capable of consistent perfection for the rest of my professional life. Worse, the feedback I’ve been given has made me really question my actions and performance at a job that I thought was otherwise going really well, and that I’ve been consistently successful at for the past 7 years.

    I don’t know what I’m asking, exactly, but I’m feeling pretty cruddy about the whole thing and I’m not excited to get started on these “test” projects that will determine whether or not I actually get the promotion for real. So if anyone has any insight or words of wisdom, I’m all ears.

    1. YourDayWillGetBetter*

      I don’t have an answer to your question or non-question but from one internet stranger to another I hope your situation turns around for the best. The best I can recommend is that you sit down and have an honest conversation with whoever in your organization is responsible for said promotion and try to clearly outline the goals they have planned and assess your likeliness completing them with total accuracy. These sound like stretch projects rather than test projects. It also sounds as if they could be taking a little advantage by asking you to perform beyond your immediate description and then change targets in the middle of the tests. Question: Are these test that you are doing actual work that needs to be done regardless if you do them as a test or not? Would they otherwise be assigned to someone else to do or are they completely made up tests designed to assess candidates capabilities? Would they give these same “tests” to an external candidate looking for the position?

      1. CatMom*

        Thank you for your advice. Calling them “projects” is probably a little misleading, but my industry is very niche and for the sake of anonymity I’m trying to use the analogous corporate concepts. “Cases” is probably better. They would otherwise be done by someone else and are only assigned to people who are already employed at my level. I described it to my mom as a “probationary” promotion. I can work on these three cases at the new “level” (higher hourly rate, higher expectations, I guess) and if they go well I can be officially approved to work at that “level” and take on more clients at that pay scale. Ideally, this would ultimately result in all my clients being at that level, which pays about 20% better than my current rate.

        The frustrating thing is that this “level” is a new invention by my company! So I’m working with clients that would already have been assigned to me had they not decided to create the new “level.”

    2. Kiwi*

      Me, I’d work to get the promotion and then go hunt for a job elsewhere at that new level. Expecting 100% accuracy is ridiculous. So is adding new tasks without letting you ask for support.

    3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      You’re great, you’re doing great, and I think it sounds like they moved the goalposts on you and are being unreasonable/unfair. I’m sorry that’s happening. I know I would be feeling really anxious and also that my self-confidence would probably take a hit if it were me. I would definitely ask some calm but probing questions, and also maybe consider looking around to see what other opportunities might be available. Bonus: Since they’ve been having you do stuff above your level, when interviewing you can always point out that you have experience doing all of these higher level tasks when you are interviewing.

      1. CatMom*

        Thank you. Other people around me have been very helpful in pointing out the positives (including the fact that 98% is still pretty freaking good). Calm but probing questions is a good plan – sadly my industry is niche enough that if I wanted to get another job I’d either have to change industries or cities. I more than likely have both the expertise and resources to strike out on my own, but this is actually a day job that supports my art so I’m not sure that’s the right choice.

    4. valentine*

      It sounds like they don’t want to promote you. Are you getting the accompanying half-raise? Do you want to stay there?

      1. CatMom*

        Well, I’m hourly, so I’m being paid at the new rate for this work, and my old rate for my ongoing cases. Because my work is client-based, I’d be surprised if they didn’t want to promote me because promotion = clients pay more to work with me = my company makes more money from my work at little additional cost to them (say, if my hourly pay goes up an additional $10/hr, working with me costs the client an additional $50/hr. That sounds really extreme and maybe it is but I make good money – not complaining about that part).

        But I am feeling really puzzled! If it weren’t for the above, I’d wonder whether they wanted to promote me too. I think maybe they’re a little unclear on what they actually want.

  175. The Other CC*

    While juggling multiple part-time jobs this year, I somehow missed that my main job’s medical/first aid kit, the kind that’s supplied by an outside company and has emergency supplies like gauze and burn gel, is no longer stocked with Ibuprofen or other over-the-counter painkillers like it has been for the four years I’ve worked there. The admin assistant said that the new policy was to no longer provide “comfort care items” to employees (but she was very nice and gave me some of her secret stash so I could continue working despite having unexpected and very painful menstrual cramps).

    I got the impression that management in my department thought this was a dumb change foisted on the company by the bean counters in charge. What’s the norm at other companies? I mean, I get why they might not want the expense of keeping Tylenol around for the odd employee headache. But could it be some weird liability thing? Overzealous concern that we’re abusing the painkillers somehow? Someone suggested it might be because there are students in the building for after-school programs and they might accidentally wander up to our department and get into the medicine cabinet? No one seems to have a real explanation. Since this is the biggest and most hierarchical company I’ve ever worked at, I don’t have a good yardstick to measure it against.

    1. Tris Prior*

      We recently got our meds stash taken away from us, too. We were told it was a liability issue. So now my department keeps our own meds stash in a filing cabinet drawer.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Some of the older med kits did have OTC items in them, but ours ran out and weren’t replaced. I do believe it was also more a liability issue as they expired, and so easier not to stock, as opposed to being cheap.
      Generally, people have their own stash.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      Our first aid kit where I work has no medication in at all, and ran out of plasters about 2 yrs ago! Since I frequently get paper cuts (opening/flattening cardboard boxes is a legit life hazard, I’ve decided!), I just carry headache tablets and plasters in my handbag in case I need them.

    4. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Most places I have worked have either stocked these in the med kit or have had a specific office stash. My current job has them in the med kit… but everything expired 3 years ago. :/

    5. Luisa*

      We got an email earlier this (academic) year saying that the nurse’s office will no longer have OTC meds (such as painkillers) available for staff, citing liability issues. I actually never knew they HAD those available, so it wasn’t really a change for me.

    6. NACSACJACK*

      It has been this way at my employer for many years. Taking tylenol or aspirin can exacerbate some conditions and therefore the company could be held liable. It’s been this for years with school nurses unable to provide meds for kids even though they are licensed medical professionals.

  176. Kate B.*

    Any advice for getting into sales jobs? I had a short-lived one once, but there was no direction at all. It was like, “Email people.” My training was literally one hour long and then I was left alone for a month to just email people and there was no human interaction. It was just online research and charts.

    I know that’s probably not a common situation. SO…….. how do I spot a good sales job? Where I can actually INTERACT with people? I’m good at sales — when I can INTERACT with people IN PERSON. Any advice?

  177. Drivesmenuts*

    My company is forcing someone to resign right before foot surgery because they want to change the job duties of the position and they don’t want to wait for her to recover before filling the position. They also don’t want to pay for her to be out for three to six months while she recovers. The CFO has told other people that if they need surgery they will only get 8 weeks and then their health insurance will stop. This totally sucks and everyone is pissed and morale is super low. Nothing can be done because the CFO lives in another country and isn’t on site for us to tell her to take this idea and shove it. There’s no upper level management on site so we’re all helpless. I hate it.

    1. IrishEm*

      Forcing someone to reign sounds suuuuuuuuuuper illegal to me D:<
      Is there a union? Or a local employment law expert to advise?

      That sucks so much!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      This sounds illegal.
      In the US there us short-term disability used for this purpose and companies are not supposed to fire people just because they need a non life threatening procedure.

  178. Mrs. Dean Winchester*

    Las week I posted about my coworker who was suspended after multiple instances of disrespecting people in positions of authority, the latest of which was a passive-aggressive email about our dress code sent to the entire staff.

    While suspended, he sent an email to head office and Principal claiming that he’d been unfairly targeted by Principal’s abusive behaviour since day one, and that the inspection team who had recently been in the school to verify our accreditation had called him the best teacher in the school. (They didn’t. What they said was that the project he was doing with his students was a good example of incorporating problem solving into the curriculum. They also did not come to every classroom, and would not have been able to identify a “best teacher” at all.) He then demanded a meeting on Friday evening at 6 pm, which Principal refused. Principal said they would be willing to meet at 7:30 am Monday morning (which is the start of our work day). Jerkwad then stopped responding to any messages from Principal and did not show up on Monday.

    We didn’t hear anything from him on Monday or Tuesday. Wednesday morning he showed up at the school early, before 7 am, which he was not supposed to do. He then sent messages to our school group asking if anyone had seen his laptop and his calculator, and came over to our office (he teaches math/science, I teach humanities) to ask specifically if any of us had his calculator, and then proceeded to try and look through desks for it. By 7:30, Principal and VP had pulled him in to have a meeting. They told him that he could ask another staff member to join the meeting in order to have a witness on his side. I can’t go into details about why the person he picked was completely the wrong person without losing anonymity, but suffice it to say that his choice showed exactly how tone deaf and arrogant he is about anything that doesn’t directly involve him.

    During this meeting Principal and VP brought out printed copies of both the school’s code of conduct and our regulatory body’s code of conduct. They asked Jerkwad to sign a statement agreeing to abide by the code of conduct in the future in order to come back to work. His reply was that they would need to discuss all of the points before he signed anything. VP replied, no, this isn’t up for debate or discussion. You will either abide by the required code of conduct or you won’t. He then tried to continue to argue about minor points that did not make him look any better. For example, during a science department meeting, we were told that he had started to bang his head on the table while the HOD was talking. He clarified that he didn’t bang his head on the table, he just put his head on the table and rolled it around.

    In any case, he refused to sign anything agreeing to follow the code of conduct and was asked to tender his resignation. They are in the process of revoking his work visa now. There are a lot of mixed feelings in the school at this point.

    1. valentine*

      Mixed feelings? I wish they’d fired him long ago, when they or perhaps someone at another job, knew he was bad news, thus avoiding the headbanging incident and the flagrant escalation of showing at the school whilst suspended and searching desks.

      1. Mrs. Dean Winchester*

        I wish that too. Most of the people I’ve talked to say that they don’t know how to feel, because they don’t want to feel happy about something bad happening to another person. I, for one, have no mixed feelings about the situation. He made his bed and he can lie in it.

  179. 84candles*

    Is a gift card a cop out Secret Santa gift? I’m new to a very young and sparkly team at work, all of whom are women (so am I – just older). Apparently it’s the inaugural year of their Secret Santa and the spend limit doesn’t give many options beyond dollar store knick knacks that no-one would really use, or a small gift card. I’ve put a lot of thought into the gift card (believe it or not!) and bought it for a small independent store a few towns over which is where the coworker actually lives. Still, is a gift card a cop out, and is the whole point of Secret Santa the trashy gifts you give/get?

    I’m so out of practise!

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Not necessarily. I just read through a whole batch of “things I hated about our work holiday gatherings”here on AAM the other night… and there were a lot of clarifications and subtle/ not subtle differences between white elephant (trashy gift?), yankee swap and what seems completely different, the “Secret Santa.”
      It sounds to me – but research the definition – like you have exactly the right tone for secret santa – thoughtful, targeted directly to the recipient, and useful.
      I would not mix Secret santa with white elephant… it sounds like you have it right.

      1. valentine*

        A gift card is great. It’s easily regiftable, if necessary, and there are sites where you can trade them in.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Nothing wrong with a gift card as long as it’s useful.
      But as you say you work with all women, have you thought of Ulta or a BirchBox thing? BirchBox is $10 for a cute cosmetics sample box, and Ulta has some cute XMas things at small sample size prices.

  180. Adhara*

    This is my first time posting, and I do hope it’s not my last (I’ve enjoyed reading the articles and the comments so much! They’ve been really helpful)

    My workplace is dysfunctional, I didn’t have a manager for a year, my manager now treats me like I’m a robot churning out work, and all the work I have done (helping turn around a badly failing dept, helping untrained coworkers, basically being an asst manager without the pay) has been acknowledged a few times but nothing concrete. I’m not respected even though I have specialist training, because I’m at the bottom of the ladder. I get blamed if things don’t happen, and any problems or issues with coworkers that affect my work get dismissed with a “well, what do you expect me to do?”. There are coworkers in all departments that do the bare bare minimum, so instead of getting them to do their work management leans on me (and when I do correctly push back, they tell me it has to be done anyway, and I’m not asking them I’m asking you to do it)

    After three years of this, its time to jump ship isn’t it? No pay rise, no chance at promotion (even though that’s been promised several times over the years)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes. It’s time to move on.
      If the company really appreciated you, they would be giving you a raise or bonus.
      It doesn’t mean you ahould quit in a huff, but polish up your resume, and begin planning your escape.

    2. only acting normal*

      I’ve been there. You are at risk of burnout. I don’t recommend it.
      Yes, it is time to move on. Good luck! :)

    3. Friday afternoon fever*

      Yeah, you haven’t listed a single thing you like about this job! Time to move on. Congrats on staying 3 years! Hopefully you are in a really nice place where you have the job security and ability to stay sane long enough to afford to be choosy about your next job. (Not implying you weren’t choosy about this — just that sometimes I have needed to leave a job So Badly and As Soon As Possible, and so took an Okay Job instead of a Really Good Job)

      1. Adhara*

        Thank you all!
        I really appreciate it. I knew work starting feeling “wrong” but by then I was the frog in the boiling pot. Definite burnout territory.

        Thanks again!

        1. ..Kat..*

          Also, check out Alison’s advice about being assigned too much work. “I can focus on A and B, but will have to back burner X and Y.”

  181. only acting normal*

    Went to a meeting with MicroManager this week.
    There was a lot on the agenda, and there was maybe a 15minute slot for MM to give an overview of his work. He sent through a 50 slide powerpoint…
    Come the meeting, the chair was keeping everything ticking along nicely. Then there was a mysterious IT problem that prevented the 50 slide powerpoint being available. It only occurred to me later that the chair has seen MM present several times before (and usually overrun by a *lot*), so the IT problem may not have been so mysterious.
    I like the chair even more now. :-D

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      this is wonderful. I have such appreciation for anyone who effectively keeps meetings running on time

  182. IT Manager*

    Hi Everyone,
    I’m having a bit of conflict and hope I can get some strategies to deal with it.

    A fellow manager (Gerald) complained to my boss (Stacy) that I was rude and made him look bad at a meeting. We were having our annual project review with our big boss, who is a VP. The purpose was to go through up coming projects and brief the VP on what we had planned for our different groups. Our VP (Cheryl) expects a lot out of us and has challenged us to push each other to “take things to the next level.”

    During the meeting, my boss passed the keyboard and mouse to me and asked me to work the spreadsheet of projects as we went through it. Side note – I always come very prepared to meetings like this. I review the materials and make sure my portion is good to go and know what I’m going to say.

    So we start going through the projects and we come to Gerald’s projects. There’s silence on each of the projects. As I am working the mouse to move to each project, I look to him to say something. Often I had to remind him that this was his project. A couple times, he said he he didn’t know why a particular project was on there. I probably did roll my eyes a couple times. I did say once, “Did you even look at this.” once.

    I was frustrated that we were stumbling through this stuff and let it show. A couple days later at our one on one meeting, Stacy said that Gerald had complained to her about me. She didn’t say that I was wrong but we needed to work it out. One note is that Gerald plays gold with the CEO so there is a weird dimension with company politics.

    How would you approach this? Do I just apologize and move on? Do I tell him what is bothering me and leave it at that? Or do something entirely different? I want put this behind me.

    2. Business Librarian*

      I’d apologize. Rolling your eyes and expressing exasperation, especially of an equal in front of the boss, will not be taken well and will shift the attention to your actions, not the fact that Gerald seems to be a waste of space. Did he deserve it? Sounds like he did, but you lose the high ground when your impatience shows. This is the time for deadly courtesy and offers of help, “Gerald, do you need me to go slower?” And when he hesitates, and stumbles, you sit quietly and let him demonstrate his incompetence with nothing taking the spotlight off it. Then he can’t say YOU made him look bad, he nailed it allllll by himself.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Seconded — I would apologize as well because I don’t think in this situation it was professional or appropriate to express your frustration with an eye roll or by saying “Did you even look at this.” It sounds like your presentations are always polished and well-prepared and it doesn’t sound like Gerald’s unpreparedness was at all reflective of your work.

        In a more casual (non-VP presentation!) meeting I think you could have said something like “do you need more time to prepare? We can stop now and regroup in x” — the goals of that being to not waste your own time waiting for G to get his stuff together, and to raise that he is wasting your time — in a solution-oriented way.

        If G were presenting on projects both of you were working on, that would be something to address more directly. And if you were his manager or a project lead etc. this would also be something to nip in the bud.

        But if he’s presenting his own projects to a VP and flailing … he’s making himself look bad all on his own and I’m not sure your comment was appropriate to the situation or your role in it. So I would apologize (even if you’re not sorry! you don’t need to be actually sorry) and unless I’m missing something, I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by telling him what’s bothering you

        1. IT Manager*

          You’re both right. Thanks, I needed to hear that. I’ll apologize and be extremely professional.

          1. ..Kat..*

            In addition, I recommend trying to pass the keyboard off to whoever’s projects are being gone through at the time. “Gerald’s presentations go so smoothly with him at the controls – he knows how to present his projects best.”

  183. YourDayWillGetBetter*

    Hi Everyone, I have a unique salary negotiation situation and I’m looking for some advice soon as I need to sign my offer letter by Monday.
    I have a colleague turned friend that was offered a great position at a new company. After being offered the position and assessing the benefits, she decided to decline the offer due to her being pregnant and their maternity leave policies. She offered my resume to the hiring manager as a referral instead. I was very interested and fast forward after two weeks of interviews, I now have an offer letter. Now here is the issue: there is a discrepancy in the salaries being offered. When my friend got the initial phone call from the hiring manager, she didn’t have to do much negotiation and was offered a starting salary of 60K. After talking to the HR recruiter who presented me my offer, she made it known that that 50K was the max budget for that position. I don’t think that she is aware that I was referred by my friend who already told me the salary range, however, the hiring manager does know this. Both offers were done before background checks, degree verifications, and we have about the same years of experience. How do I bring up that I already know (and partly applied for the position because of) the salary range in my counter offer?

    Thanks a bunch!

    1. Business Librarian*

      I think you can do it as an honest question, “Oh, I understood the offer was $60K, and that’s what I was expecting.” and if the HR rep says where did you get that idea you can refer to information from the hiring manager. It could be that the first offer to your friend was in error, or the HR person has the wrong info. You might want to have this conversation with the hiring manager anyway and say that the HR person seems to have incorrect information since you know that 60K was possible

  184. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I’m sure that there are a hundred AAM columns about this, and will archive-crawl when I have time, but what do you do about overly-cocky white guys who mistake their overly-cocky white guy status as “leadership?”

    I’m at a new job, and the nature of my executive dysfunction and processing disabilities mean that I have a pattern of, for the first few months, being just really not very good. Which is fine, because with the nature of having had to cope with this all my life, I’m super-good at setting up systems to keep myself from making mistakes and making myself (and others) more efficient, so by the time I’m about a year in, I’m one of the top employees and doing the work of at least two people, and everyone who was considering firing me fights to have me on their team. So, that’s not a problem.

    The problem is this guy who went through the training class with me. We’re an otherwise all-female department, and largely minority, and he presents as male. He’s already acting like he is the boss, constantly condesplaining and lecturing us about how to do our jobs, and “us” includes his superiors and people who have been in the department since the company opened. (It may be mentioned that he sounds twenty-something when I recount this, but he has grown children and salt-and-pepper hair.)

    It’s just interminable. And right now, because I’m mucking up a lot, I am NOT the person to gently explain to him that what he is doing may feel professional and ambitious to him, but it’s super-annoying and also comes off as vaguely sexist and racist, whether or not he himself is sexist or racist (I feel it’s just that he’s been taught to jump right in where “needed” and not be afraid to make a fuss). It’s also unnecessary and sometimes downright wrongheaded. (Since our work concerns some things I shouldn’t be discussing on an open forum, I’ll cite the twenty-minute lecture I got last night that Stephen Hawking thought climate change was solely the result of the sun getting hotter and that humans cannot do anything to combat it. I don’t even know of whom he was thinking; Dr. Hawking absolutely and unequivocally thought greenhouse gasses were a problem. He does this, but with our JOBS.)

    I know my higher-ups see right through it, but I’d love some scripts to redirect his enthusiasm and positive energy for improvement (which I don’t want to downplay! It’s great!) into something a little more self-reflective. Scripts?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      He sounds fabulously annoying. But are you both coworkers at the same level? I don’t know that your efforts are well-spent redirecting him into being a better and more tolerable person if that’s not part of your job. Is it your job to fix him or your job to tolerate working with him?

      Especially given his age and how that often can correlate with a person’s high assessment of their own maturity and always-rightness… in your shoes I would probably focus on how to keep my sanity and how to swiftly exit any lectures. Perhaps by being the most boring possible audience—and always so busy, sorry to cut you off but I have to get back to work now. And responding to advice on how to do my job by doing things like giving him the blandest polite smile possible and saying “thanks, I’ll consider that” and mentally throwing his ideas in the trash.

      This might not be the kind of constructive advice you want … but I would not have time to suffer someone like this. His enthusiasm is annoying the crap out of me :)

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Bonus from this approach is that you can adapt scripts for how to polity shut down your nosy coworker, your friendly but overly talkative coworker, etc — it’s all kind of the same if your goal is polite disengagement, so you might cast a wider net in the archive trawl.

        I do not think his insufferable opinions are your cross to deconstruct.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          PPS love the username. Would read the sequel where Buttercup adventures as the Dread Pirate in a friggin’ heartbeat.

        2. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

          Thank you for the kind comment on the name and the advice (and sympathy).

          I kind of knew this was the answer. It just feels so much like why people complain about white feminists, watching a man lecture a black woman about stuff she knows way more about than he does. But I guess making it boring for him is the way to go.

    2. fposte*

      I think Friday afternoon fever’s Saturday morning advice has a lot of merit. It sounds like you’re not really in a position to focus on changing him, so focus on minimizing his impact on you. First off, remember that just because he wants to talk doesn’t mean that you have to listen. A 20-minute lecture isn’t a reasonable use of your time; after the first 60 seconds, you can interrupt to say “Gotta get back to work, Bob”; “Hold that thought–I’m on deadline.” Get a legion of neutral shock-absorber responses–“Sounds like you have some ideas you should take to Manager there, Bob.” “Good thoughts; thanks” “Glad to know I can call you when I need you, Bob, but right now I’m good.”–that can be said pleasantly but also reasonably display that this isn’t something you’re going to give rapt attention to.

      Basically, reframe your task from stopping him to teaching him that you won’t be listening.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        “Sounds like you have some ideas!” Brutal. Factual. Ideally cheerful. I love this.

  185. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    So I’m really late, but I have an excuse and that excuse is that I was at my swearing-in ceremony for the bar all day yesterday.

    And also I accepted an offer to do legal aid work 400 miles away out in the middle of nowhere.

    It was kind of an exciting day.

  186. Sylvie*

    Hey, i know its late, but hopefully not too late!

    I have a question about social skills at work. I am shy and very introverted, i am also good at my job. However based on social skills it has been made apparent i will never be be promoted into management despite my great performance.

    Is there any way i can improve my social skills to the point where they see me as something more? I have received 2 promotions in 2 years based on my work so i am doing well, but no management type things.

    I struggle to hold a conversation with someone about personal things or even general chit chat, but work related isnt an issue, ive built great rapport (and had feedback) with clients in solo meetings with them. It doesnt help i get massively intimidated by members of the c suite and to cover up my shyness i come across as very curt with minimal verbiage, or really young as i go really bubbly and silly.

    I know i need to get better but dont know where to start as i panic and my mind goes blank.

    1. fposte*

      This sounds like a situation where practice would help a lot. Toastmasters is one possibility–it’s geared to polishing up your public speaking, but there’s also a lot of interaction along the way of people at different levels of communication skill. I would also consider volunteering (though obviously not if you’re hugely opposed or it would be a major chore), especially in a situation where you’d have contact with people outside the organization while you operate as the face of it. That can mean something as low-key as being a volunteer adoption counselor at an animal shelter or working a charitable garage sale, if you don’t think you’re ready for working directly with more needy populations.

      Also note how often you hear people talk about “scripts” here and elsewhere online. People draw on a library they’ve developed of things to say–they’re really not doing improv from scratch every time. What do people whose communication you admire say in the situations where you struggle? What would the more professionally polished Sylvie say in these situations? You can draw on the model and act the part, whether it feels like you or not. It can also help to develop some go-to lines so you feel prepared. What do you say for social chitchat? What phrasing do you use to raise a problem? Do you regularly acknowledge the achievements of other people, and what language do you use for that? Watch other people around the office and quantify if need be–how many lines of social dialogue do they each get before they move on to work, or move on past each other? Use that as a template.

      This is a recurring theme of mine, but I think the notion of being a “good ender” is important–having solid exit lines for a conversation or topic is really helpful to keep from bogging a conversation down into nothing. “Well, good to see you–bye!” “Glad to hear that news about your daughter. Anyway, here’s what I think we need to focus on for the project.” I think everything’s less scary if you can find the exit.

      Hope that helps some, and good luck.

    2. Lousy at small talk*

      I’m naturally awful at this too, and I’ve got deliberate strategies. I try questions like “how was your weekend?” on Monday and “got anything planned for the weekend?” on Friday. And trying to find out about people’s families and asking after them. Ditto hobbies and background. If I think I’ll forget those details, I’ll take notes (not in front of people, of course). And it doesn’t help that I’m into alternative lifestyles so openly talking about my life could make me look weird, so I think in advance about what I can share.
      The goal mainly is to find things you’ve got in common, like shared likes or dislikes, shared history.
      For the C-suite, could you ask your workmates about topics the C-suite are keen to talk about? Travel could be a good topic, they often have to travel a lot. If it comes to a crunch, pick a work area you know each of them is involved with and pre-prep some nice positive questions about it.

    3. The Other Chelsea*

      It will sound terrifying, but taking an improv class really helped me build some anti shyness muscles. I would never in a million years actually perform, but you get to do a bunch of exercises that force you out of your own bubble and teach you not to care as much about overanalyzing social interactions.

  187. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    All of my Excel cramming before my Round 1 assessment test for the Far Away From the Hellmouth and Definitely Not Property Management Job that I applied for must have paid off, because I have made it to the Round 2 phone interview! Hurrah!
    This is legitimately great (and a much needed confidence boost), but I’m worried that things have gotten so bad at the Hellmouth (because they have gotten really, really, intolerably bad-like, I didn’t think things could get worse when I initially started job hunting, but I was SO WRONG) that I might say yes to literally anything that will get me AWAY from the Hellmouth. Any tips on keeping perspective and catching/stopping yourself from overlooking potential red flags when interviewing for new jobs after you’ve reached the point of ALMOST being ready to literally gnaw through your arm to escape your old job?

    1. Business Librarian*

      Maybe say to yourself, “I will not be on a hellmouth for all of 2019. Things are moving in my life, I’ve got this. Deep breath.” I do think that once you get some action on one job, others seem to come along faster. Evidently there’s frequently a clog in the universe?

      I also think after reading your comments that it really would be challenging to find another situation this horrible. Especially if it’s not in property management. Even bad bosses and weird coworkers can’t compete with your everyday life. Shudder.

    2. Triplestep*

      Congrats on the Excel assessment!

      I too fear that I’ll be overlooking red flags once I finally have an offer – I probably overlooked a few to get out of my last situation (which I’d actually trade for this one!) Many internal conversations I’ve had about jobs I interview for include the phrase “Well, really, how bad would it be if … “. In other words, I’m looking at the red flags, assessing the red flags, and comparing them to my current situation. I am not ignoring them – I am assessing them against things I know to be important to me.

      In terms of managing expectations, I apply to a lot of jobs. A LOT. I work in a field that some workplaces divide my current responsibilities. (Think: project lifecycle from strategic planning all the way through project execution. You can do one piece of it, or own the whole nut.) Roles for the piece I want to focus on are hard to find, but it’s easier to find roles pertaining to my other skills and experience, which I would also be happy to do if the pay, commute, etc, were right. I find the way to insure I manage my emotions is to always have an iron in the fire. Applying a lot means I interview a lot and I get ghosted a lot (since that is so common.) Having another thing on the horizon helps during those times.

      Good luck – I’m glad you updated, and please keep us posted!

  188. Beachlover*

    Hi everyone
    Three years ago,I had completed my first college internship at a mid sized company for three months . Many of the staff especially the owners and managing director grew very fond of my work ethics and became instantly popular where they were constantly offering me potential job positions and offers even before the internship had ended. However the following year I had a semester of four classes with a heavy workloads and later that summer I had to complete my second internship at a completely different company. To be honest I preferred the second company because it have more in common with my career goals and a better fit for my personality and work life balance. However an employee from the first company whose name is Ceresei who works in the chocolate teapot marketing departmentinformed me of summer job opportunities at that company on Facebook messenger but I had told her that I was already set for my second internship and had to report to the second company the following day. Last year January I had emailed my resume to the first company along with the second company and a few others in the same industry to be a step ahead of my fellow graduates in the job hunt. About two weeks later the human resources manager at the first company whose name is Sansa called my house phone and informed me that she had found my resume in the email inbox and ask ed me what position I was interested in and I told her that I wanted to be a chocolate teapot designer then she provided me with the other application information, bank account number and information for the hiring manager. Later that evening I told my parents about the job position they cringed because the felt that I was forced to make a decision on the spot without them and disapproved of the job position and wanted me to choose something else. When I contacted
    Sansa again she told me to send the information to her office and she will be off from work for a few days and would be back shortly. After sending the
    documents at the company which is a very far distance. I had contacted the Human Resources concierge named Arya to follow-up and indicate that I had sent the documents at the security booth for her collection and she had agreed. The shocking twist was that when I arrived home I wasn’t aware of the fact that Sansa changed the meeting about the job positions to Jane, the managing director and the daughter of the owners and Fergus, the general manager . It was very weird and frustrating, because Jane neither Fergus is not in charge of hiring for entry level positions. While trying to figure it out and questioning the organization of the company about 1-2 weeks went by and started to move on to focusing on the second company (my dream job) and the other ones, but my grandmother, Mary insisted that I give them another chance because she was anxious about me being bored without employment. So when I called Sansa again about the meeting she still held on to the story with Jane and Fergus and tried to accuse me of wasting her time in a harsh voice and I later became frustrated by her horrible attitude and pushiness and give up.
    A friend of mine from college named Eliza accepted a job offer from the company after her internship that same year and jumped on the bandwagon of recruiting me to work there too and after a while she started to become as pushy as everyone else insisting that I take the job as if subconsciously she was accusing me of being prideful and picky. However since working there she had three different job positions a junior teapot sales associate, a junior teapot designer and a junior teapot analyst. She did those jobs mainly for the money but I knew that she was unhappy the way she complain about the paycheck and fit whenever we spoke privately and wanted a second job elsewhere. But she eventually resigned this year after a few months.
    A month later my younger sister wanted to visit the company’s teapot marketing department for a school research project, so we went there with my dad. While we were there many of my former colleagues found out about my employment status because they kept asking questions about on and kept pressuring me with their pushiness to take a job there which irated me. When we left my dad started inquiring about job openings for me at the company despite my displeasure of working there. Ceresei told him that they were recruiting new employees for their upcoming spring teapot sale and I must speak to Jane, however she and her parents were on a 2-3 week vacation leave. A few weeks later , I had finally decided to take the job as a teapot designer as a short term placeholder until my dream job at the second company or elsewhere pulls through. But a few more weeks later I had received a call from my mother that she and Sansa had an argument over the phone about a business inquiry and felt disgusted by her lousy attitude. I guess I had dodged a bullet?

    1. ..Kat..*

      I hope you can post this next Friday, but early in the day . That should bring lots of good advice comments.

    2. valentine*

      Can you separate your family from work? Work with people who don’t know your family and maintain your plans, despite your grandmother’s worry.

  189. Guilty Job Hopper*

    After being unemployed for a bit too long I started a short-term temporary seasonal job at a big box retailer. The job is definitely O.K. The store seems to be having a problem attracting workers (The lazy H.R. person doesn’t help) and a lot of the long-timers are a bit surly. They’ve been calling in sick a lot (but it is the cold and flue season) so the store is definitely understaffed. I’ve only been there a couple of weeks and worked through the Black Friday madness.

    Now of course, I’ve gotten an offer for a better job at a higher level of pay with benefits and the prospect of much more worthwhile promotions. I accepted the offer and am going to start in a week. I guess I have to tell my big box supervisor on Monday. I feel kind of bad about quitting right before the Christmas rush, but hey.

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Congrats on the new job! No reason to feel guilty–you were a seasonal employee, and this is pretty common (and awesome for you!).

  190. Wesley Wyndham Price*

    Okay, here’s my problem/question.

    Last year, I was promoted to manager, and I “inherited” an employee from my old manager who was leaving. This employee just didn’t like me, and eventually I had to put him on a PIP. He started making HR and discrimination complaints against me, but thankfully HR investigated them fairly and defended me. He quit in April, and right after he did, I was pulled into a meeting with HR and legal counsel where they told me that they’d been given evidence that I was lying about the guy who left and told companies he’d been interviewing with that I fired him. I told them that wasn’t true, but they wouldn’t listen. I’m looking now because I feel like the company has turned its back on me.

    Now lately, I was catching up with another guy who left my company, and he told me that the guy who quit in April told him that he left the company because he found out I was dating one of the other people who worked for me. He didn’t believe it either, but still.

    This guy has it out for me. I don’t know how dangerous it will be to my reputation, but he’s not letting it go since it’s been 8 months by this point. I’m just not sure what the best step is.

    I feel like suing isn’t a good idea, even though we make decent money and he used to say he wasn’t worried about being fired because his family is rich. Contacting his new job and telling them one of their employees is slandering people doesn’t sound like a good idea either, because it would make me look like the weird, bitter guy.

    Here’s another idea: I send him an email offering to bury the hatchet. The email would say I’m sorry we parted ways on the wrong foot, and that if anyone asks, I’ll give him a good reference. I don’t like this idea because it’s not true (I didn’t do anything wrong, and I don’t like anyone who lies) but it might make him drop his vendetta.

    Thoughts?

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don’t email him! For starters, it could look like some sort of admission of guilt, and you haven’t done anything.

    2. Triplestep*

      Yes, I agree – do not e-mail the guy. Do your best to separate yourself from him.

      I’m curious what “evidence” HR has that you lied about the circumstances of his leaving. “Evidence” is a pretty strong word – they are not saying “we heard” or “he told us.” Did you ask for clarification?

      1. Wesley Wyndham Price*

        So this is a late reply. But I do not remember whether they specifically used a word like “evidence” or “proof.” My emotions were running high, because I wasn’t given a chance to defend myself. They were adamant that I had done it, and that I was a bad guy. The tone of the meeting was “we’ve been told you’ve done this, now you’re on thin ice.” I’m really upset because the same HR rep was reasonable when the guy who quit made discrimination complaints about me. Maybe he hired a lawyer.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Do not contact him yourself – he will only use it against you. Consider hiring a lawyer to send a cease and desist letter to him.

      1. valentine*

        Don’t contact him, or it’ll be “See? Wesley Windham Price is now stalking me.”

        Have a lawyer ask HR/Legal for the alleged proof and negotiate a positive or neutral reference.

        1. Wesley Wyndham Price*

          This doesn’t sound like a bad idea, but what if they say no? Then I’m in the position of having gotten a lawyer involved with my current employer, which doesn’t seen good.

          You have a good point for negotiating the reference, though. Five, eight, or ten years after I leave this company, their only records of me will be W-2s and a HR file that says I was disciplined for lying about a former employee and violating the no reference policy. If there’s a written agreement between my (theoretical ATM) lawyer and the company’s HR department that I left in good standing etc., that would override the HR file, wouldn’t it?

  191. Triplestep*

    I now most people have moved on from this week’s work-related posts, but I’m ruminating on something, so here goes:

    I have applied in the past with a large consulting firm very popular in my industry for roles on site with local employers. Twice before they have been very interested in me, only to have things fizzle with little to no contact from them. I later found out that both times, the roles they had posted were not “real” – they were trying to develop a contract with these local employers, and were lining people up should the contract be won.

    OK, that’s fair – that’s the way consulting works. But why not tell me that during the process? Both times I had to figure it out on my own.

    I’d had conversations with the head of the division before, so I’d occasionally reach out to him if I saw something posted for a remote role. He stopped returning my messages.

    Then out of the blue, someone on his team reached out to me to ask me if I was interested in a role for an existing contract. They needed someone to replace someone who was leaving. This would be a remote role, and exactly what I want to do (with none of what I DON’T want to do). That was the week before Thanksgiving, and he said we’d jump on a call with the client the following week.

    On Tuesday before Thanksgiving, I e-mailed to provide my availability for a call, and he responded saying he’d put something together after the holiday.

    On Tuesday after Thanksgiving, I e-mailed to provide that week’s availability for a call, and … nothing. No response.

    I really thought this time would be different considering it’s an EXISTING client. I am not someone who nudges potential employers – I think Alison’s advice to apply and move on is wise. I made an exception this time because consulting is a bit different; it’s in this guy’s interest to show his client that he can provide someone with the skills they need. Which I have in spades!

    I am trying to forget about this using my usual techniques (don’t let up the job search, basically.) But I wonder if I should keep reaching out to this guy, or just walk away. Do I risk looking like a PITA continuing to e-mail? Or take this as more evidence of their willingness to ghost me when an explanation would not be that hard to provide? They are a huge Global consultancy with 50k+ employees, so they are doing something right.

    1. Kiwi*

      You risk looking like a PITA. There’s 2 possible explanations here. One is that they found someone else or the job evaporated. In that case, seeing as they’ve already ghosted you, chances are enormous they’ll keep ghosting you, and even if they do give you an answer, you don’t really gain anything from that.
      The other possibility is that they got busy and haven’t progressed the search any further. In that case, once they get back to the job search, they know where you are. They don’t need more emails from you to remind them you exist. And they could be feeling guilty and you contacting will feel like nagging, which would make them associate you with a negative feeling. That’s not worth risking.
      If you haven’t heard anything in, say, a month, you could email then and say that you just wanted to let them know you’re still interested.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yeah, I’m worried about seeming like a nag. What you wrote makes sense, except one thing: We both have a lot to gain if they did give me an answer. I could tell the guy was really trying to sell me on the position and the company – he was really being a cheerleader. If what they want is to be able to use my resume like this with their clients, they really should just communicate with me. Ghosting is never OK, but I expect it from an inexperienced hiring manger or a recruiter before I’d expect it from this guy who HAS to be good at managing resources to keep his clients happy.

        Oh well. I guess I will wait until after the new year to contact him again. (If I don’t get another offer, that is.) Thanks for taking the time to reply to my late addition here!

  192. D*

    I had an interview with the hiring manager yesterday for a position I really want; I think it went pretty well. She said she thought I could bring a lot to the team, but she has to finish the interview process. She then let me know that I would be contacted next week by the recruiter. I am trying not to get my hopes up but this would be an amazing opportunity for me.

  193. Feeling Ugh*

    Not sure who will see this, but giving this a shot.. I’m going to be laid-off in a month from a job I’ve only been at for ~4 months. I left a toxic job to take this job, and for it to not work out has been very stressful. Ultimately I know it’s the right decision – I’ve been pretty miserable – but I’m still recovering from the previous toxic job. Part of the reason why I’ve been struggling is because I’m pretty sure I have PSTD from that job/being laid-off before. Having to look for a new job on top of everything else has made my stress levels skyrocket.

    To make things worse: Before I was told I was being laid-off, I had told my manager (by email) that I was having issues and trying to work out a WFH situation so I could feel more in control. Instead of wanting to work things out, it seems like they decided to show me the door.

    To make things worse x2: They company is showing their incompetence by having no protocol for laying someone off.

    Trying to be optimistic..

    1. ..Kat..*

      Positive spin: you can look for a job for a month while you are employed. Does your current employer have an EA (employee assistance) program? Hopefully you can get started with some therapy for your PTSD. Let the therapist know you only have a few weeks so you two can focus on the most important/effective stuff.

      Good luck.

      Also, save as much money as you can in the next four weeks. Having a financial cushion can give you some breathing room – which can help lower the pressure on you.

      1. Feeling Ugh*

        No employee assistance program.. They don’t even have a human resources department. (It’s an early stage start-up)

        Didn’t actually know those types of programs existed.. Even when I worked at large companies, I’ve never heard of one.

  194. Raia*

    One of my peers has been promoted to team lead, however I know I can have a seniority issue in these situations and would like to know how to overcome it. Unfortunately I dont know her individual work that well. I know it doesnt make logical sense to feel this way, since I only have a month seniority and obviously there isnt a direct relationship between “amount of time worked at job” and “mastery of job.” I’m game for being linked to other AAM posts if this has been discussed already.

  195. Muse of Ire*

    Tomorrow, instead of starting my dream job, I’m going into the hospital for some fairly major surgery. Before i knew the whole extent of the plan, I already called HR there to let them know I wouldn’t be able to show up, but now I have to call them back to say I can’t report until January. Any words of wisdom or scripts for how to get through this difficult conversation? Any way to appease my anxiety that they’ll express sympathy but decline to hold the job for me?

      1. valentine*

        Can you email instead? Either way, just state the facts, no “unfortunately” or what have you. It’s just business. They’ll deal.

        1. Observer*

          Do NOT do that if you can at all avoid this. I’d probably try to talk to my manager to be. But it really needs to be a conversation.

          1. Someone Else*

            I very much disagree. “I’m unexpectedly having major surgery” is absolutely an email when said surgery is tomorrow. That’s basically a medical emergency. There’s no need to twist oneself in knots to have an outloud conversation when one is having a medical emergency, when you could send off a quick email and be done, so you can focus on your health issue.

    2. LurkieLoo*

      Good luck with your surgery today! I hope it goes well and the recovery is smooth.

      I also hope that since this time of year can be slow for many businesses, they will hold your position. I think we probably would. It takes close to a month just to find a new person we like, then they will probably need to give notice . . . so it’s about the same to just wait for you.

Comments are closed.