open thread – December 14-15, 2018

by Alison Green on December 14, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. FaintlyMacabre*

    After the clusterduck that was/is this week, I think I’ve moved beyond BEC stage with my job and moved into the “burn it all to the ground” stage.

    But to the point, my question:

    I am trying to change fields and part of that effort means getting certificatons/taking classes/blablah you know the drill. I need to take a webinar. Because I do not have vacation time, and the webinar runs for a couple hours on two different days, I have to be at work during the time of the webinar. Which is not ideal, but I have a lot of busy work stuff I can do while the webinar is running. Again, not great, but it is what it is.

    The problem is my coworker/relative. In theory, coworker relative is scheduled to leave two hours before I get in. (We do the same job, different shifts.) In reality, coworker/relative rarely leaves by the scheduled time, and is frequently around for an hour or more during my shift. This bugs me, but trust me when I say it isn’t going to change.

    The webinar starts at exactly the time I’m scheduled to get into work. I assume coworker/relative will be there. Given that we share a computer, I will need to ensure that the computer is free. I really don’t want to let coworker/relative know that I’m taking this course, but I don’t know how. Chances are good that they’ll be around and I can’t lie and say I need the computer for work stuff. Do I bite the bullet and come clean? Do I just say it’s a webinar and try to deflect questions? Give them chocolate laced with laxatives? (Okay, no I wouldn’t do that last one, but I really need to leave this company and I’m annoyed that coworker/relative’s problematic behaviour, which is a part of why I want to leave, is making it just that much harder for me to just leave already!!!)

    1. Tara S.*

      Can you start listening to the webinar on your phone, and move over to the computer once coworker leaves?

      1. Trinity Beeper*

        +1 for this – a lot of webinar hosts will also give out the recording and/or a copy of the slides later, so you can catch what you missed visually.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      So the co-worker’s “problematic behavior” is wanting to use the computer you share for work instead of letting you use the shared computer for something else that might be for work but is really for your own professional development to change fields and get out of your job? Maybe I’m misreading?

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        Coworker stretches out an 8 hour shift into 12. Yes, sometimes they are doing work when I get there, but there is no reason why they couldn’t have gotten it done earlier. And while this isn’t work, sometimes I get into work and have to twiddle my thumbs while they are doing stuff. And sometimes they just stay and want to chat. They shouldn’t be there at all! If they were any other coworker, their work would be done and be gone by the time I arrive.

      2. Peachkins*

        I think the problematic behavior is the fact that coworker doesn’t leave on time. If they did, the computer sharing would be a non-issue. I do get what you’re saying though, lol.

    3. your favorite person*

      Is the content of the webinar in any way connected to your current work? If not, I honestly don’t think you should be doing it at work. I know that at many workplaces, it could certainly be something you could get in trouble for. Even if you know there is no way you would get caught, I still wouldn’t do it.

      I know that isn’t the answer you are looking for, but I don’t think you should be training for a job search at your current job during work hours.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I think a good gauge would be “Can I be forthright about attending this webinar without people saying ‘Hey, that has nothing to do with your job’?” If the answer is yes, then just tell people you need to take this webinar. If the answer is no, don’t do that at work.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        This. And using work resources–if you don’t want work to know you’re looking, don’t use their electronics to take certification courses, email your resume, etc.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      Can you book time off in the morning for an “appointment” and do the webinar from home. Honestly, that’s probably the best way to do it. Otherwise, not only will your co-irker be around, but anyone might come by and require your attention for, you know, work stuff.

      1. Psyche*

        That would be the ideal solution. If the webinar is not related to current job it is really tough to justify doing it while on the clock.

      3. FaintlyMacabre*

        Unfortunately, I have no time off. And with being closed on Christmas and Ne Years, I really can’t afford to just not be here. Plus, I can’t afford to have the internet at home, so…. work it is! I’m not worried about interruptions. I rarely have to interact with people on a day to day basis.

    5. gecko*

      Is your coworker/relative using the computer for work stuff? Do you both often use the computer for non-work stuff?

      I don’t really think it’s possible to do a scheme so you can watch the webinar and your coworker doesn’t know anything about it, but still changes their behavior.

      If it’s pretty acceptable for you both to do non-work stuff on the computer, I’d say, “Hey, there was something I was planning to watch as I did work right when my shift begins. Could I get the computer when I walk in for the next few Tuesdays?” or whatever you need on that front.

    6. notfunny*

      Will the webinar be recorded so you can listen later? that might be more useful than having to be so secretive about viewing it while your coworker is there…

    7. Madge*

      Often webinars are recorded for later. Could you check and see if a link will be shared later? Maybe it won’t work for you if you need to check in during the scheduled time but it could be an option.

    8. Urdnot Bakara*

      ^ Seconding what the commenters said above about it being recorded. I run a bunch of webinars at my current job and we record every single one. The only thing is, if you are taking this webinar as part of your certification, it may be required that you attend the live program in order to get credit for it. The next thing, then, is how do they account for attendance? If they just need you to be logged in for a certain amount of time, then you can probably get by with missing a few minutes at the beginning of the program while you get your coworker situation sorted out. If they do it through attendance checks (polling questions), then there’s no telling when those will be, so it may be a problem if you miss part of it. Might want to check on these things with whoever is running the webinar!

    9. Ann O'Nemity*

      Yeah, that’s a pickle. Sounds like coworker has a better reason for staying on the computer than you do, considering that you’ll be using the computer to watch a webinar that will ultimately help you leave your job. Whereas your coworker may be doing actual work.

    10. Database Developer Dude*

      But you *are* using the computer for work stuff….just not for your CURRENT workplace, so technically, that’s not a lie.

      How close is the relative?

  2. Anonymous Educator*

    Two weeks seems pretty standard, but what’s the longest notice anyone’s ever given? Any stories of long notice that have gone well? Or have gone horribly, far worse than you thought it would?

    1. Ree*

      When my husband was in his last year of college, he accepted a job offer in October to start the following June, in a different city. I told my boss around the first of the year and we just made plans for me to transition out mid May. It worked out well, but it was definitely a YMMV, because I probably wouldn’t have given such a long notice at my last job.

    2. JokeyJules*

      i had a manager give 8 weeks notice which backfired entirely because he procrastinated on training me to pick up the slack in his absence, and the company procrastinated in finding him a replacement. So when his last day came everyone was in a tizzy because nobody was trained to cover his workload and there was no replacement in sight.

      granted, that’s all errors on management. It could have gone perfectly if executed better!

      1. Ok_Fortune*

        My coworker gave 6 months notice bc she was accepted to graduate school. It was fine, she stayed focused on work, everyone was happy for her new opportunity.

    3. Reba*

      My spouse once gave notice that he was leaving for graduate school like 4+ months in advance. And I think the company knew in a general way that he was considering grad school even before that. They then laid him off in July, and it was made clear that it was easier for them to do that because they knew he was leaving soon anyway. So he missed out on about a month and a half of pay. Not the end of the world for us, but not the most awesome situation either.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        He filed for unemployment for that time though, right?
        You can’t always claim once school starts, but he should have received from last day until his initial last day.

    4. your favorite person*

      My friend worked for the MOST TOXIC boss ever. She finally was able to snag a new job and wanted to give 3 weeks. He said he needed 6. She said she couldn’t do more than 4. He said if she didn’t give him 6, he was going to call over to her new place and talk them into letting her start at 6 weeks. He said he had, “connections” and if she didn’t play nice he would trash talk her to her new place and they would rescind the offer. She was scared, and believed him as he had done something similar with another employee so she did stay 6 more weeks. Luckily, she’s been out of that Toxic Job for more than a year now.

      1. Mimmy*

        My jaw hung wide open reading that….what an a**! Glad you were able to get out without him ruining your new job.

        1. yebroqlp*

          I worked for a toxic start-up where the CEO would brag about doing things like this — he had “tons of connections”, he “knew everyone”, his “word carried a lot of weight”, quitting was treason & he would “make it so you never worked in this town again”, doing something he perceived as crossing him was a “career-ending decision”.

          I know Alison has mentioned it’s odd to not tell your current company where you’re going when you give notice, but I did exactly that. I was that afraid he just might be vindictive enough to tank my new job.

        1. your favorite person*

          She had to have a phone call reference before they were hire her, she asked her direct boss and the direct boss told big boss. All very, very sketchy.

          1. your favorite person*

            and the phone call reference HAD to be at the current company. It was a government position she was going to and they had very strict rules. She tried to work around them and they couldn’t hire her without doing that.

    5. anon24*

      When I got engaged I let my boss know “hey we’ll be getting married in a year and are thinking we’re not staying in the area.”. Six months out “yeah we’re definitely leaving”. About 4 months out “hey we’re actually looking for apartments so I’ll be gone around this time for sure. And then about 5 weeks out it was “found an apartment and my last day will be X”.

      It went well, but it was a small business and I had a great relationship with my boss. He’d trained me for 2 years before promoting me to my position so I wanted him to have time to start training a replacement if he was planning to promote from within verse outside hire. In the end he begged me to stay but knew I really couldn’t.

    6. Lena Clare*

      Hi there! I think the rule of thumb here is basically how often you get paid should be equivalent to the notice you give. I mean there are going to be exceptions of course. I think professional Americans get paid every fortnight, is that right?
      Anyway, here (the UK) it’s a month’s notice for a standard office-type/professional job. I have never had any problems with working my notice out at all!
      The longest notice I have given was about 3 months (a full term time) as a teacher – and again that was not a problem. In fact that is standard in teaching and in the NHS.

        1. Catleesi*

          Based on personal experience the only places I’ve worked where I’ve been paid monthly are for the government, or some kind of public entity. Working in retail, or for private companies it has been 2x a month.

          1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

            Nor mine. Everyone I know with a professional position (including myself) gets paid every two weeks.

        4. Spreadsheets and Books*

          I work in finance for a publicly-traded company in NYC. Just took a poll of the floor and no one here has ever worked in a company that paid monthly. May be more field or region-specific

        5. OlympiasEpiriot*

          I get paid semi-monthly. Def a professional position, even have a state certification with the word in its name.

        6. RUKiddingMe*

          Pretty much not unless it’s the government or something like that. Even working at the university I get paid weekly.

        7. CDM*

          My husband was paid monthly for maybe 9 months about 15 years ago, a change instituted after his employer was bought by a company headquartered in India. That change got rolled back because, oops, it’s illegal under NJ law. Employees must be paid no less than twice a month by law in NJ.
          It appears in PA that employers can pay employees as infrequently as they want, as long as they disclose it to employees at the time of hire. (which would have also made the employer’s actions illegal)

        8. SignalLost*

          I’ve only been paid monthly when I was a college teacher. I’ve been paid biweekly and bimonthly. (Yes, I know those words don’t have the same tine designation. I’m American and don’t use fortnight.)

          1. SignalLost*

            Wait, no, I got paid bimonthly when I was teaching. I’ve never been paid monthly and I don’t know anyone who is.

            1. The Grammarian*

              I was paid monthly at one university and twice a month at another one. In private industry, I’m paid twice a month.

        9. Audiophile*

          That is heavily dependent on the field and industry.

          In government, it is not unusual to get paid monthly. Almost every job I have ever held, has paid employees bi-weekly. I had one retail position, years ago, that paid weekly and that was the only exception.

          1. SignalLost*

            My temp jobs all paid weekly, but that was both understandable and not the norm anywhere I worked permanently.

        10. Seeking Second Childhood*

          US-based engineering & manufacturing company on the Fortune 100.
          Payroll checks are issued every other Friday.

        11. Rusty Shackelford*

          Wow – I guess my experience is skewed by my industry! I didn’t know getting paid monthly was so rare.

      2. RUKiddingMe*

        I think that yes every two weeks/twice monthly seems to be pretty normal, but then in some areas every week is more the norm. Government jobs, some academic jobs, etc. are monthly…but not always.

        My mom was career at the VA (Veteran’s Administration) and she got paid twice per month, every single month, for forty years. When I work at the university I get paid weekly. My niece working for a private employer gets paid monthly but with a bi-weekly “draw…” So it really depends on the employer more than anything.

    7. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I gave ~two months of notice when I left my last job in 2016.

      My husband was graduating medical school and we knew the chances of him matching to a residency outside the immediate area were high. My bosses knew it was a possibility as I had talked often about the Match and my husband’s medical education, but I played up wanting to stay local as we did truly like the area. As expected, my husband matched to a city 1,100 miles away, and there was no way to not let my anyone know as I had taken Match Day off to celebrate with him and had to argue to get that day off as we were very short-staffed and my PTO requests were regularly denied. Everything went fine. My bosses were happy for me and for my husband’s successful match, and there were no issues as I finished out my work. They were very understanding and I left without incident.

      1. OhNo*

        One of my coworkers did something very similar when her partner got out of medical school and was looking at residency. She gave our boss around four months notice (we’re in higher ed, so about a semester), and the rest of us coworkers two months notice once she had her plans firmed up. Luckily, our department was – and is – very close-knit and friendly, so there were no worries about any negative consequences during the long notice period.

    8. Memyselfandi*

      I gave my last employer 6 week’s notice. I was making an interstate move so I needed the time to make the transition, but it was a disaster. My boss was so taken aback that I was leaving (which I totally do not understand because I thought I was getting signals that it was time to move on) that she told me not to tell anyone until she had a replacement lined up. So, I had to sit on the news, going to community meetings with people I had worked with for years, knowing that I would not see many of them again, and unable to say goodbye. It also made it difficult for me psychologically to start the moving process. It didn’t help that I had experienced some personal losses as well. It was a time of big transitions for me and I was not allowed to handle it in my own way. It was one of the hardest periods of my life. In retrospect it was very selfish of her and not out of line with her general behavior seen from the distance time provides. Do what is best for yourself.

      1. WhiskyGinger*

        I’m sorry that it was a negative experience for you! How long did she make you wait? If it was a high-visibility role, I could see asking someone to hold off for a week or two, in order to be able to come up with a communication strategy etc. I don’t think that’s totally out of line – though I’d be interested to hear what others think.

        1. Observer*

          A few days to get a communications strategy in place is sensible. More than that – especially asking for time to find a replacement – is both out of line and stupid. It almost invariably backfires on the organization.

    9. Hillary*

      I gave two months at my last job and they talked me into three (and held up their end of the deal, so no regrets there). I didn’t have something lined up when I gave notice. It worked out well because I had a good boss, grand-boss, and great-grand-boss. They all knew why I was leaving. I recruited and hired my replacement and then we had a couple weeks together so she could learn what I did. She put her own stamp on it.

      I ended up getting a call about an offer while I was sitting in my exit interview. I took a couple weeks off and really happy with my current role.

      I had one boss who explicitly told me to not give him more than two weeks so it wouldn’t influence any decisions.

    10. anonykins*

      My last job was a true contract job (not in the US) and had a 90-day notice period built in to the contract. The owners of the company were litigious and one in particular looked for ways to not pay employees when they left, so I felt it was best to give the full 90 days. I was extremely nervous, and I had to give notice before I’d found another position because of that long notice period, but it turned out OK. The owners didn’t try to deny me any compensation and even paid out my unused vacation time (didn’t think they’d do that AT ALL). They were disappointed I was leaving but didn’t treat me any differently than they had before (that is, they continued to keep me frustratingly in the dark about things pertaining to my position). Because I had *started* my job search before I gave notice, and I chose to give notice at a time when I knew my industry was in one of the yearly busy hiring seasons, I ended up with two job offers on the table about half way through my notice period. It went about as well as I imagine it could have, honestly!

    11. Rey*

      The person I replaced gave 8-9 months notice. Basically, she was moving from a full-time to a part-time position at the same organization, and the organization’s policy required a 6 month break between full and part time employment (something to do with not paying health care benefits for part time employees, maybe?). She gave 8-9 months notice to allow for the application and interview process, and we had one full month of training before she left and I was on my own. I think it worked really well in that case, because she knew that her office wasn’t going to push her out before her final day, and her boss trusted her to train her replacement (versus not wanting overlap to avoid passing on bad habits)

    12. AnonyMouse*

      Funny story about giving notice… at the university I work at, I’m technically a staff member but I have the same type of contract as faculty/those with teaching appointments do. There’s a clause in my contract because of this that says that they can require up to 90 days notice for resignations. Obviously this makes sense for those teaching courses that they be expected to finish the semester. It DOES NOT make sense for staff/non-teaching appointments! However, directors on our campus LOVE to exploit this. I had a coworker who was required to give three months notice (they were leaving to work for a family business, so luckily they had flexibility) and it was a nightmare. They wanted to be gone, we wanted them gone, etc. I had another coworker who needed to give two weeks (which is standard in our industry), and my boss told him the university would threaten him with legal action. My coworker went above my boss to inquire about this through central HR and he found out my boss basically lied about that to try to scare him out of leaving. It’s a mess, and I can’t wait to leave (and only give two weeks notice!)

      1. Robot With Human Hair*

        Having previously worked at a university for 17 years, I’m not the least bit surprised. All the sketchy stuff they tried to pull at my last job (and sometimes successfully) was insane.

    13. Liz*

      I gave 6 weeks notice at my last company and am so glad I did. There was no ill will — I just had a job offer for 20% more pay and a way better benefits package, and I couldn’t say no. I got the offer in late October and didn’t want to start a new job during the holidays, so I negotiated a start date 2 months out (super generous on the employer’s part, and a great way to kick off a working relationship).

      I was initially planning to keep my resignation a secret until December, but I wanted to take the last 2 weeks of the year off and I really liked my boss, so I decided to risk giving him 6 weeks of notice. He was disappointed, but once he got over that, we worked together to put together a solid transition plan. I helped him hire my backfill and was able to mentor the backfill for the last couple of weeks I was on the team. I was able to finish a bunch of projects and hand off anything I didn’t completely finish. Since I had some extra time in my last few weeks, my boss asked me to operate as a leadership consultant in the last few weeks. I developed some leadership training, coached leaders to think through their challenges in new ways, and left them with a bunch of new ideas they pursued after I left. This was really fun for me (I want to go into consulting and love L&D), but it also helped the broader organization shift direction in a positive way in the months after I left. Win/win.

    14. CTT*

      6 months’ notice, albeit those were unusual circumstances – I got into law school in January and the people I worked with were aware that I was applying and mentally had “well, if CTT does leave this year, it would be in the summer” scheduled. After I found out, we spent some time figuring out when my last day would be, and then we started looking for a replacement in February, who ended up starting in April so I had several months to train her. It worked really well, but again, it was special circumstances.

    15. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I gave 3 months notice once because I was moving to a different state and had finagled a long lag in start date because I had to sell my house. I thought they would be happy to have months for me to transition my very heavy workload and even have time to hire someone new if they wanted to go that route.

      I gave notice at 11:00am on a Tuesday. They handed me a box and told me to GTFO as they were terminating me immediately. I had multiple meetings scheduled and a bunch of customers awaiting return calls, and I have no idea how they picked up the pieces since I didn’t even have anyone backing me up on the accounts – I was the sole repository on information and had been for five years.

      It was devastating at the time and not at all what I expected, but in retrospect it worked out okay. I took my 3 year old out of daycare, fought for and got unemployment for the three months, and put all my efforts into packing my entire life up while keeping my house clean enough for showings (which would have actually been challenging with both my husband and I working full time,while caring for a toddler with no extended family around). Oh, and the company that fired me went out of business two years later, and the schadenfreude was indeed delicious.

      That said, I will never give more than two weeks notice again unless I’m in a position where it wouldn’t be a hardship if I’m shown the door.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        That is common around here. My friend works in tech. Gave his 4 months notice at 8 am. He and his stuff in a box was out at noon.

        His boss didn’t even see him out. Just two security personnel.

      2. Observer*

        I have no doubt that the way they handled you had something to do with what happened to them. It’s incredible how often the decent thing to do is also the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do is also wildly stupid.

    16. Ama*

      My brother kind of gave several months notice when he joined the military years ago, because he applied to a special training program that was brand new and they accepted their first class before they had quite figured out exactly where and when their training would be. So he told his boss (he was working at a small IT firm at the time) and actually offered to go ahead and set a last day if they wanted to get a replacement hired, but the boss was very supportive and told him they were willing to have him continue working until he had an official start date for his training. I’m sure it helped that he was a high performer and they were a relatively small business.

      I think it ended up being about four months from his initial conversation with his bosses to the point where the military gave him a definite start date for his training and he then put in his official two weeks. He recently left the military and returned to our hometown, and still has lunch with his old boss from that company from time to time.

    17. Iza*

      I think I gave about 5-6 months notice when I left my old job to go to grad school. My boss and coworkers knew I was applying (our VP wrote me a recommendation letter) and I knew they would let me stay the full time. It worked out really well!

    18. Art3mis*

      I gave about a month’s noticed when we relocated to a new city. It went fine, I guess. All my work was transitioned smoothly. And after ten years of service I went out with nary a whisper. There was no good bye party, no card, no good luck, no please come back if you return to the area. Nothing. I just turned in my badge to security on my last day. After ten years in this city, every time I’ve hated the decision to move and leave that job I remind myself that other than my friends, no one cared that I left.

    19. KR*

      I gave four months notice because I a)knew I would not be pushed out b)was moving so I knew ahead of time c)knew I had a lot to do before I left and my manager would need to prepare for my absence because he depended on me and d)wanted to be able to job search and have managers full support

    20. KK*

      I gave 6 months without anything else lined up because some parts of the job were seasonal and I couldn’t keep pretending I was going to be doing the job after that point- it was just flat out lying. I wanted to be up front and help them transition as smoothly as possible. This ended up being great because my boss was wonderful and encouraged me to look internally, where I found a job in another department and very happily moved over there.

    21. Robot With Human Hair*

      I gave three MONTHS notice at my last job (at a university). And that was out of the kindness of my heart – not toward my boss, but toward the faculty I serviced. Because if I had only given two weeks – which would have been right around the start of the Fall Semester – the university would have been pretty rightly screwed, as I was the sole person on campus doing my (pretty crucial) job.

    22. Beth Anne*

      I interviewed at a job where the person before gave a 2 week notice but whoever she told never told the big boss (who is always traveling) until a week later. Then he was mad that I couldn’t start for 2 weeks after I gave notice. I didn’t get an offer but I didn’t want that job anyway. It was way too unorganized for me.

      I moved from TX to FL 7 years ago and when I left I gave about a month notice. It was fine. But yeah she didn’t start interviewing people for my job until like a week or two before I left and she didn’t hire anyone until after I left. I did do some work remotely for about a week or two after I left though.

    23. Amberlyn*

      In my last job I did one-on-one in-home care for kids with behavior disorders, and at the time I decided to move, I was on a few tough cases. I gave a little over five weeks’ notice to give the company plenty of time to replace me on each case. I was taken off of one case the next day (5 hours weekly pay) and transitioned off of two more the next week, putting me down to 12 hours per week. That left me with my two hardest cases until my last day. Of course, injuries from those two cases were a big part of the reason I was leaving that job in the first place…

    24. Not my circus, not my monkeys*

      Well, I gave notice the beginning of June. My last day was a week into August. They still haven’t hired a replacement and the staff are still emailing me questions. I gave such an extended notice because I genuinely care for the place and want the very best. It’s frustrating

    25. Jake*

      I gave 7 weeks at my first job. Between giving notice and leaving my wife was diagnosed with cancer, and my employer approached me saying they’d keep me if I wanted to rescind my resignation so we wouldn’t be locked in to moving across the country and changing doctors and all that.

      We still moved, but knowing they were understanding about it reaffirmed to me that the long notice was not a bad decision.

      1. Owler*

        That’s very kind. I I had a similar good experience after a health challenge. My company let me stay on part time, mostly so I could get health insurance.

    26. RabbitRabbit*

      I gave a month and they didn’t even realize they hadn’t posted the job until the 3rd week – when I told them because a colleague wanted to refer someone for the opening. I continued to help out on and off (as I still worked at the same institution in a related job, with the blessing of my manager) for what turned into months.

    27. Red Reader*

      I gave two and a half months notice when I left my old position to move across the country. We were already understaffed by half (three of us, one of whom was part time, on a team designed for 6-7 FTEs), so I knew I wasn’t getting shoved out early, and my intention was to let my management have plenty of time to hopefully get a replacement in. However, two weeks after I gave my notice, the other FTE pulled us all into a conference room to let us know that she had inoperable cancer and would be dropping to half time immediately, and my manager didn’t even get my position posted before I left. My coworker passed away a couple weeks after I left. So I didn’t have any negative results, but I have no idea how that worked out for my old department.

    28. Karen from Finance*

      I started to loooooathe my job, and thus my performance plummeted. My manager and supervisor sat me down and asked what was up with me, and I confessed that I was job hunting. I didn’t give formal 2 week notice until a job offer was made, which made it in total 5 weeks that I was working there where my bosses knew of my intent to leave. It was good I think. They were nice about it.

    29. Bluebell*

      6 weeks at my last job and 4 weeks at the one before. We had a very senior person at my org who told sr team 4 months ahead of departure. He and his boss planned it for a year.

    30. Jules the 3rd*

      I gave 4mo for the job before grad school. Worked out well, they got the replacement they wanted, trained and in place.

    31. Rez123*

      My dads contract says 6 months notice. He never resigned, but that was written down in his contract. For us lower level employees it is 2 weeks if you’ve worked for the company for less than 5 years and then 1 month after 5 years. This is pretty much standard everywhere. Higher ups have different times in their contracts-

      1. Karen from Finance*

        What is your dad’s industry? I understand 6 months for teachers or maaaybe for high-level executives. Otherwise it sounds crazy.

        1. Rez123*

          He is in engineering. This is usually done only for higher ups in big companies. It works the other way too. If he would have gotten fired (retired now) they would have had to pay him 6 months salary.

          Teachers have the same 2 week notice before 5 years and then 1 month after 5 years as majority of people. This is in defined in the employment law and in the collectoce Labour agreement unless otherwise stated in the contract.

          If fired then your notice is 2 weeks if youve worked there under a year, 1 month if 1-4 years, 2 months if 4-8 years, 4 months if 8-12 years and 6 months if 12+

    32. Applesauced*

      I gave 3-4 weeks notice a few years ago.
      I interviewed for a job in September, the position was put on hold, they interviewed me again in November, offered me the job in early/mid-November, and I asked to start in 3 or 4 weeks instead of 2 because of a large project (that was understaffed and a large part of why I left) ending at OldJob.
      Based on how the calendar fell, NewJob suggested I start in January, otherwise I’d begin the week of Christmas when no one would be there to train me.

      OldJob was happy because I helped see the project through, and I was happy because I got a week and a half off at the holidays without using PTO – I even got some unused time paid out from OldJob!

    33. Ann Perkins*

      When I first started with the office where I am now, the person who preceded me gave about 4 months’ notice. She was pregnant with her second and knew she wanted to stay home and wanted to leave when she was around 36 weeks pregnant. It worked out very well because she was able to train me on a job that takes several weeks of training without bogging down other resources. There was overlap pay because I started before she left but it worked out great. She’d been in the job for about 6 years and was well liked so she didn’t fear being pushed out. After a few years, my boss moved on to a higher role at a different company and gave 1 month’s notice. Again, reasonable organization and no fear of being pushed out because our roles are very niche so it’s hard to find replacements.

    34. H.C.*

      I’ve given 4 weeks notice before – which gave me plenty of time to close out / transition my then-current projects, and ease of mind for my managers when recruiting my replacement, who started a week after my last day.

    35. TeacherLady*

      I used to teach a subject that was hard to find teachers for at a school in a remote location. I think I had to let them know in February or March if I was going to come back for the following school year or not. I was happy to do it, as they were a great employer and I understood the reasons. But it meant there was no way I could line up another job before giving notice at that one.

    36. SDSmith82*

      I tried to give more when I left my last job- I really did like the owner/boss on a personal level, but was seriously underpaid. I wanted to give her notice in person, but she kept avoiding the office (sort of on purpose). She ended up getting 1.5 weeks instead of the 3+ I’d wanted to give her. We were relocating, so my move date/start date were not negotiable.

      I had one other time where I gave my boss three weeks- he kept it from big boss until 2 weeks, and while he was totally ok with my leaving, (proud of me for it even) big boss tried to make it hell, including delaying my final check by a full week- and issuing it on one of those hard as heck to deal with debit cards. Labor board made them pay me for the delay, and for the additional fees that stupid card created. Big Boss knew my exit interview would be his undoing, and I’m happy to say it was. Two weeks after my exit interview, I got a thank you email in my personal email for being the final straw needed to get big boss and his minions fired.

    37. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      I gave around 3 months notice at my last job, and it was fine! They decided not to make it public until about one month before, but my manager and her manager knew so they were taking it into account for long-term planning.

      Another job I gave a month notice, that was fine. I don’t think I’ve ever given less than one month (except the occasional terrible service industry job that I left without notice at all, or maybe with a week notice).

    38. Llellayena*

      A year and a half, and I told them during my interview. I was applying to grad school and wanted to work in the field I was entering while I put together my portfolio for application. I did get let go about 3 months early, but it was right when the recession hit. Great time to be headed off to grad school!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Similar to this, I had been accepted to grad school and based on the offer, deferred for a year. I had applied for an internship but they offered me a FT position, with the unspoken part being that it was contingent on my leaving after a year. So they knew I would be leaving about 14 months after I started. (As it happened, I was invited to stay in the position if I wanted so I wasn’t really forced out, but I needed the advanced degrees to progress in the field.)

    39. Wishing You Well*

      My friend’s boss wanted a year’s notice from her, because he said it would take that long to train her replacement. She gave him a few months’ notice instead. Her in-house replacement was very disagreeable and resistant to training. Shortly after my friend left, her whole department (and project) was eliminated.

    40. Public Sector Manager*

      I gave 90 days notice to my last employer (back in 2005). Worst mistake I ever made. My manager at the time was relatively new, insecure, and was a walking train wreck.

      During that 90 day period, my workload went up, my manager denied time off (I was able to cash out 100% of my accrued leave however), and my manager became an even bigger pain to deal with.

      I won’t ever do that again!

    41. MissDisplaced*

      I gave approx. 3 months once, but only because I knew I was moving across the country and we had a set timeframe. Interestingly, the company didn’t even hire a replacement, despite the 3 month notice. It’s like they were in denial or something. My manager was fine and appreciated the long notice, but said the owner of the company felt sort of ‘betrayed,’ which was nuts as my decision had nothing to do with the job or company. Other than that, things went ok.

    42. Ann O'Nemity*

      Super long notices seem to work well if the leaving is for a “good” reason. Retirement. Going back to school. Moving for family. Something that doesn’t involve the company.

      I gave four month notice when I was accepted to a non-local grad school. Went fine. The only weirdness was my own FOMO rearing its head when I was increasingly left out of important meetings and decisions, but I rationally understood why the company stopped including me in that type of thing.

    43. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I quit one job with the understanding that I would stay until the new person was trained as I was leaving without anything else lined up and no plans to look for awhile. After 15 months when they started looking for the fourth replacement (two of the three previous replacements quit because they were hospitalized for work-related stress), I finally said enough. Management was not nearly as terrible to me as they were to other people and it really wasn’t awful for me until the very very end.

    44. You'll see why I want to be anon for this*

      Twice, and never again.

      The first time wasn’t really giving notice; everyone knew I had been accepted into an educational program that would soon start. The organization ran into financial issues and laid off my entire department, up to the VP, giving them a decent severance package – except for me. I later learned that I had been slated to be laid off, but they decided to wait me out when I was accepted into the program. The severance package they offered folks would have been more than what I would have earned between then and when school started.

      I was no doubt the only one who would have appreciated the time off and severance, as it would have given me time and money to prepare for the move. But “fair enough,” I thought – until I learned they expected me to do the jobs of everyone had been laid off, which put me in a lot of questionable situations. I had to remind them that I didn’t have signatory authority, for example. I did it all to the best of my ability because I was worried about getting a good reference down the road. The workload was such that I ended up sleeping/living at work (we had a pumping room/sick room with a cot and shower in it) for multiple days in a row, all while I was (I later learned – long past our statute of limitations to report wage theft) misclassified as an exempt employee – and the living at work definitely pushed me below minimum wage.

      I did get one small piece of enjoyment out of it, though. Folks knew I had been accepted into the program but I had never discussed my intentions or timeline. So I let “slip” to leadership that I was seriously considering not entering the program for reasons x, y, and z and that it would make more sense to stick around. The looks on their faces were priceless, and one did this sputtering “well, well, we just assumed you were leaving, I mean, it’s such a good opportunity for you” etc. Maybe not my most professional moment, but I enjoyed it.

      The second time, I gave two months’ notice; I was in a government job that required living in what some have classified as a s-hole country (def not my opinion though – I loved it) for part of the year and required specialized knowledge of a place that wasn’t high on many people’s “to visit” or “to study about” lists. I thought it would be a challenging position to fill (it was) and that it would be a kindness to give them the extra time. I also thought it would allow me to freely document my job for the next person and whoever interimly held my duties until that person was hired, instead of having to rush at the end.

      So you know how *a lot* gets blamed on the person who recently left? Well with such a long notice period, that started happening while I was still around. So instead of documenting, I spent a lot of time proving that I hadn’t made the multitude of mistakes that started to be assigned to me. I guess it was nice to be able to defend my reputation, but it was an annoying waste of time, and disheartening (and sometimes really hurtful) to see how fast I was thrown under the bus by people I previously believed to have respected me and my work.

      Worse, my notice period covered the end of the year, when our annual reviews were conducted. We weren’t getting pay raises the next year, but money had already been set aside for merit bonuses for the previous year’s work. These were real merit bonuses, not a “anyone who isn’t on a disciplinary action gets a bonus” kind of deal. Basically, they took everyone’s annual review scores and gave bonuses to the top scores and worked down until they ran out of bonus money.

      I knew it was going to be bad when my supervisor started apologizing before she handed me my review. I had received a bunch of mediocre scores, which shocked me because my supervisor had always been complimentary about my work. She told me that the powers that be wanted the bonuses to stay with people who weren’t going to leave (“better for morale”) so she had to make sure my score was low enough that I didn’t end up in the group that was getting bonuses. Lots of apologies and acknowledgements that it was unfair, but that didn’t mean much to me. I mostly remember just a hazy blur of being upset and don’t remember if I signed it or not; I know she didn’t press me to. She then gave me, orally, a glowing “real” review, which I think was intended to be nice, but mostly added insult to injury.

      So no more long notice periods for met. If it weren’t violating workplace norms, I’d give same-day notices if I could. I know a lot of it is “know your organization” but honestly, I thought I did in both cases.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        This is a perfect example of why it’s better to give two weeks. Once you’re seen as abandoning ship, the employer loses all incentive to work with you or retain you. I’m sorry that happened to you twice :(

        1. You'll see why I want to be anon for this*

          I completely agree.

          I would never let myself be treated now the way my I let my employer treat me during my first lengthy “resignation” experience. I was young, it was my first office job, and my mentors had all just been laid off. They would have happily provided me advice, and when they learned what happened later on they were horrified, but at the time I felt it would be awkward and rude to talk to them about a job they had just been laid off from. But I’ve always been one to have learn things the hard way. :l

    45. JennyFair*

      I work in an industry where if you give your notice, of any length, and you are leaving for a job in the same industry, or they think you are, or they think it would be safer, they escort you out immediately. I’ll give two weeks’ notice when I leave, but no more than that.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        The proper notice period for any company that escorts you out is just under 2 hours. Set a meeting with your boss for 3pm on your last day.

    46. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A year. I worked part time throughout it since it was all that was needed by that point.

    47. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      I worked for a research study, and our grant was renewed at a much lower rate, which meant most of the staff would be laid off in 6 months. I was newly pregnant, planning to leave at the end of my pregnancy, and had not yet gone public that I was pregnant. So when the boss announced in a staff meeting he would be making some touch choices in the next few weeks about who could stay into the next fiscal year, I went to him and gave a 6 month notice. He was thrilled that he could count on me to stay until the end of the grant, when most people would (naturally) leave when they could for more secure work. I ended up with as much overtime as I wanted (without pressure to work more) and a raise and increase in responsibility that looked great on my resume when I went back to work a year after the baby was born!

    49. Lynne879*

      My co-worker at my last job gave a SIX MONTHS notice for her retirement (In June, she gave notice that she would leave in December), but she didn’t actually retire until a YEAR AND A HALF LATER, mostly because my boss kept begging her to stay (That and I also believe my coworker was having some money issues at the time, but I genuinely believe she stayed for as long as she did because my boss kept telling her he “needed” her).

      So the lesson here is NEVER give anything longer than a one month notice for leaving because you WILL be taken advantage of.

      1. Observer*

        Right because ONE story is totally universal and it WILL happen to everyone – even though it didn’t.

    50. Adereterial*

      If I were to give notice now, I’d need to give 10 weeks – 1 week per year of service. There’s no question of me being able to work it out, either – they’d have to pay me 10 weeks notice to leave as well.

    51. Jennifer85*

      I gave effectively 8/9 months notice in one job, where I said upfront that I was going to university and only had that amount of time before the course started. It was a receptionist position with relatively high turnover (I think) so they were happy to take me on that basis.

      It worked out remarkably well tbh – I was moved from my original role a couple of months early because they decided they should train a new person, but I was kept on to cover for other sites/do some other data analysis work. In hindsight they totally could have let me go at that point (which I didn’t even think of at the time) but it all worked out ok.

    52. sara*

      I gave about 3 months notice when I quit my job to change careers. I knew I’d be okay with not getting laid off or whatnot, mainly because there’s no way my boss cared enough to do that. But the main reason I did it was the person who had been working as a part-time/junior staff with me would have been the perfect replacement, and I knew she was really needing full-time work so was looking for additional jobs. So I wanted to get that figured out before she ended up getting hired elsewhere. She’s amazing at the job, and I think has done better than I ever did in the role (because she really loves the work, I just tolerated it).

      And thankfully it all worked out, they didn’t have to externally post my job because of reasons, we had about a week of overlap where I could train her on some new stuff, and also during that overlap, I was able to finalize various documentation etc. of a lot of the rare/seasonal bits of my job.

      My concern about giving so much notice wasn’t that I would get laid off, but that my boss would procrastinate and not hire anyone despite having months to do so (and an extra person to help with screening applicants if they’d posted externally). Turned out to have not been the case, which I’m super thankful for!

    53. Meteor*

      I’m a little late to this thread, but I gave 2 months notice to my employer when my husband got a job out of state. We were already short 1 person on the team, so they actually wanted to keep me employed for that full notice period, even allowing me to work remotely after I moved. Great company/bosses, and a really nice end to employment there, because I was able to wrap up projects or transition them well to other team members. I only recommend doing this if you have good standing with your bosses and you know that HR allows this type of situation.

  3. Tara S.*

    Maybe I’m overthinking this…

    My (male) boss was discussing (female) coworker with me. Coworker had said she felt like her position was 1.25 jobs—like she was a bit overextended because of the workload. My boss shared that he thought the job was not really a 1.25 FTE, just that coworker had been “distracted” the last year. He said that it was understandable, seeing as she got married, bought a house, and had a baby. “But. Still.”

    Ok, on the surface this seems like a harmless comment. I don’t know enough about coworker’s load/working style to say if she is really just underperforming (and I am perhaps biased because coworker and I have very similar careers and get on really well). HOWEVER. Boss has also been hard on other employees in the past for needing flexibility for kid related things. One former coworker was sometimes 10-15 minutes late because of kid-related things (her job was not super time-sensitive, as long as she got her work done she was fine), and boss really got on her case about it.

    Boss doesn’t have kids, and neither do I (right now, someday I would like to). These kind of comments make me feel like my boss would downgrade my value as an employee if I were to have kids. His comments aren’t that strong, nothing reportable, I’m going off intuition more than evidence here. What do y’all think?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This one is tough. On one hand, I’ve totally had a lot of coworkers who *feel* very busy and overextended, and talk about that a lot, when the workload should actually be fairly reasonable and others in the position have handled it fine. And I do think this is exacerbated when they have a lot going on outside of work, especially something innocuous like moving. So I can see where the bosses’ comment could be coming from.

      On the other hand, I also know a lot of people who aren’t at ALL sympathetic to child/family conflicts, and if it’s a pattern with this boss I think forewarned is forearmed when you’re thinking of your own likely trajectory under this person.

      1. Fish Microwaver*

        Moving is high on the life stress index, so it’s not really innocuous. It can be especially demanding when you can’t take time out to get all set up and still have to run the gauntlet of work and other responsibilities.

        1. valentine*

          If your boss wants your butt in the seat at a particular time the business doesn’t require it, that’s where it needs to be. If you’re not going to shut him down, Tara S., you can stick up for your coworker, in hopes of improving your future lot.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Boss has also been hard on other employees in the past for needing flexibility for kid related things. One former coworker was sometimes 10-15 minutes late because of kid-related things (her job was not super time-sensitive, as long as she got her work done she was fine), and boss really got on her case about it.

      I’m not really sure where this falls in legal territory. I know in theory you can’t discriminate in hiring based on child/no child or married/not married status, and you usually have to provide some minimum parental leave policy for people with newborns. But I don’t know if there’s anything out there that says “Employers must be understanding about employees who have kids.” I mean, I think employers should be understanding about life circumstances in general (maybe you don’t have kids, but you take care of a relative who has special medical issues, or you have your own medical issues), but I don’t know if they’re legally required to be understanding and flexible.

      In terms of the 1.25 thing, your co-worker may be right or may not be right. Unfortunately, it kind of doesn’t matter, because if the boss isn’t going to take anything off her plate, she can keep asking for things to be taken off (which probably won’t happen), leave, or just deal with it.

      1. Psyche*

        Personally, I feel like it depends on how often “sometimes” is. If it happens once a month and he’s getting on her case, then he is being unreasonable. If it’s happening once a week, then the coworker needs to figure something out because their current childcare plan is falling short.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        There’s no law I’m aware of that says a company has to accommodate family responsibilities. They can’t discriminate if you can do the same work and they can’t pay you less for the same work, if I’m understanding – but I’m not a lawyer. Anyone else?

        1. Natalie*

          On a federal level, there’s no direct protection for marital status or children/no children (although there is a specific law covering pregnancy), but it can be an aspect of sex discrimination. So if the boss seems to only penalize women with children while ignoring men with children, that might be discriminatory.

          Some states might have directly covered family and/or marital status.

          1. Yorick*

            But there’s a difference between discriminating against someone with kids (e.g., not hiring them) and not being flexible to accommodate their responsibilities (e.g., letting them come in late when others can’t)

            1. Sloan Kittering*

              Yeah, you put this better than I did. Companies have to accommodate disabilities, but I don’t think they have to actively accommodate parenting.

              1. Fact & Fiction*

                They certainly do have to treat male parents and female parents equally, however, or else they are engaging in gender-based discrimination. And people are often not insightful enough to realize they’re engaging in that sort of insidious discrimination.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      After years of hearing about women having “other distractions” just because they have kids, where the same comment would never be made about a man just because he has kids, this sets off red flags for me.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        And I do know and work with plenty of men who leave early to go and do ‘kid things’ with their families.

    4. RUKiddingMe*

      On the surface it doesn’t sound like anything, but as women we have lived with low level, just under the surface sexism all of our lives. We kind of “know it when we see it,” even if it’s not anything provable/reportable. Males are really good at plausible deniability, and TBF are often this way without really any intent..it’s just their default.

      FWIW…I would say trust your instincts, be aware, be on your guard (generally good ideas, not just with Boss), and remember that when “someday” comes you may or may not even still be in this particular job.

    5. k8isgreat*

      That sucks and your boss sucks and you should have a kid if you want one, but be prepared for him to think less of you. I have to admit, I often lie about having to take time off for my kid. I’ll say I’m sick and can’t come in when he is, or I’ll say I have an appointment on a day when his daycare is closed. It’s not ideal, but people really do look down on working parents. They think taking a sick day for a sick kid is akin to a vacation day (it is not!). Or that it’s some massive inconvenience to the company to take a vacation day because daycare is closed. It’s honestly very frustrating because while I like my job, I like my kid a lot more and I try not to feel guilty when I prioritize him over work.

      Comments like that aren’t harmless. They harm the reputation of that working mother. It’s really really hard. That’s all I can say. There was a letter a while back about a mom who wanted to take like half a day off during her probationary period to go to her kid’s performance and Alison advised her not to do it and it just broke my heart that she had to miss something important because of arbitrary rules our patriarchal society has created around work.

      1. RUKiddingMe*

        Aaannnddd if it was the dad asking for the time off, there’s a better than even chance that he’d be celebrated for being “such a good dad/involved/caring/helping out/babysitting/etc.”

      2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        That one I think was in the employee’s first week and this was a new manager. I can definitely see not doing that. And it was a recital, not an emergency. Thee will be many recitals i a child’s life.

        1. Fish Microwaver*

          Now there’s the thing, my mother attended all our school concerts, parents days , sports carnivals etc, but the one I remember most was the one she didn’t attend because my brother was ill. Easy to say “there will be others ” but there is no guarantee and kids always remember the absences.

          1. Anononon*

            So are you saying parents have to go to every single event or else? I’m not sure what else this comment is leading to. Yes, it’s important to go to as many as possible, but some non-kid related things are more important.

            My dad was away at a work training/seminar my entire birthday month when I was eight I’m sure I was super upset at the time but, now, it’s just something we laugh about.

          2. Michio Pa*

            Dog forbid your mom miss a school concert to take care of your sick brother. Are you really saying that you think your mother loves you less because she missed ONE parent event, instead of attending every single one? That’s a pretty high standard for someone who doesn’t even remember all the ones she did attend :(

    6. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Honestly its kind of a red flag to me that your boss is discussing a coworker’s performance with you. Its a weird conversation to have with you, unless you manage her in some way. That coupled with the lack of flexibility for very normal work/life things like kids, makes me think he’s… not a great boss.

      1. sunshyne84*

        I agree, very odd convo to have with another employee. He was probably looking for another non-parent to agree, but I just think boss just needs a reality check about life. People are going to prioritize their families over work sometimes whether it’s kids or not. Life happens and it wouldn’t hurt to show some compassion once in awhile. You just have to learn when people are taking advantage of that.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          People are going to prioritize their families over work sometimes whether it’s kids or not.

          Yes, I’m actually kind of irked that people like this boss try to make it about kids vs. no kids. I have no kids, but my boss is great about allowing me flexibility in my work when necessary. He also does the same for our employees with kids.

    7. Rey*

      The other commenters are spot-on, and you should definitely go with your gut instincts on this. As a manager, he has a lot of options of how he can work with employees if there are problems with the work they are producing. Instead, he has written them off as a distracted employee, and is comfortable discussing another employee’s performance with you. He is choosing not to manage, and that means he is a bigger problem than someone who is 10 of 15 minutes late (which is not a big deal in a lot of jobs).

    8. Twin Cities*

      I’m not really sure how relevant gender is here. You seem to have placed an emphasis on it. I have been a nurse for a while with female supervisors and they can be the worst offenders regarding flexibility for kid-related things. I have seen it where someone calls in and tells management that their kid has strep throat or needs to go to the hospital and they are like “your still coming in right??” Um no.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        It’s not the gender of the employer but the gender of the employee. As you’ve noted, most studies about sexism show women are just as sexist against other women as men are against women.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        And even if the employer is punishing equally employees of all genders for any flexible time they need to take care of kids, we still live in a society in which that work, even for full-time employed parents, still falls unevenly on women (with some rare exceptions). So with two hetero full-time working parents, both of whom have kids (obviously), it’s more often that the woman in the pair will be the one taking care of the kids’ medical and dental appointments or sports practices, etc.

        1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          But that is the parents’ choice. Nothing stops Mom from insisting Dad take kid.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            My husband has a flexible schedule and is salaried. works in in the town where we live, and takes her to “halfish” her scheduled appointments.
            I work 35 miles away and I punch a clock.
            And yet for 12 years drs, dentists, and schools have called MY work phone first despite being told to call him first. Despite it being a different area code. And they get huffy when asked to call him instead.
            (Side rant: a few years ago our kid spiked a fever in flu season and nurse wanted her go to the dr and the school wanted me to take all the details and coordinate the dr and… it took several interruptions before I got her to understand I COULD NOT be there for an hour, but my husband could be there in 10 minutes. And yes she needed to be the one to call because he always picks up for the school but my calls he let’s go to voicemail.)

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Sorry for the pre-caffeine rant. Better I let it out here than raise my voice with the callers I suppose. :)

    9. matcha123*

      I think that there are people with kids who would express the same sentiment as your boss. There are people who have a lot of family that live close by who can also drop in when some emergency happens, they are comfortable financially, life has been relatively kind to them, and they are not going to get why a single parent who relies on public transportation always seems distracted.
      How is the boss on people when non-kid issues happen? If the coworker with kids is late because of kid stuff, is that an issue? But when the same coworker is late because they overslept, is that not an issue?

      I think if you expect that “because kids” is a line that should make people more flexible, you might be feeling that the boss’ reactions are harsh.

    10. The Ginger Ginger*

      So, everyone else has said some good things here, a couple of the questions below are reiterating points from other people, but it might help to see it all together.

      Why is your boss talking with you about a coworker’s performance? That’s a little alarming. Even if he was asking if you also felt like the role was more than 1 full time job, he did NOT need to share all that other performance commentary with you.

      How often is he coming down on parents about “kid” things (or things he perceives to be kid-related)? Is it occasionally, or actually frequently/every time?

      Is there supposed to be flexibility in the schedule or a culture of flexibility in the company and your manager seems to be behaving counter to that?

      And most importantly, how often is he coming down on FATHERS about child-related tardiness and the like? Because if this is exclusively something he does with female reports, that is a Problem.

      And I’d also advise all the mothers on your team to NOT say why they’re late or leaving early or taking unexpected PTO, especially if it relates to needing to take care of a family issue, because I do NOT trust this manager. Tell everybody to vague it up.

    11. Ann O'Nemity*

      Your boss has revealed several things in this conversation:

      (1) He is willing to discuss your coworkers with you, so he’s probably willing to discuss you with coworkers. This could include your workload, performance, and personal life.
      (2) He considers life outside of work, and especially kids, to be a distraction. Probably doesn’t value work-life balance.
      (3) He resents employees who need flexibility and has a strong preference for butts in the seat.

      Based on the above, he probably would downgrade your value as an employee if you had kids.

    12. Former Retail Manager*

      I think I’d think long and hard about whether you want to stay in your current position under your current boss if and when you should ever have children. Boss doesn’t sound like he really understands the demands of being a working parent and it doesn’t sound like he’s ever going to change his mind regarding his thoughts on the matter or his expectations of his employees.

      As for his comments about your co-worker, I don’t really understand why he’s making the comments to you. That seems inappropriate to me unless her request somehow impacts you. And might he be correct that she isn’t overworked. Yes, and in fact, he probably is right. But a good manager recognizes when people who are good employees need some flexibility in their schedule and need time to adapt to major life changes. Your boss doesn’t sound like he gets that. So again….if you decided to start a family, I don’t think I’d want to do it working for this guy. He’s shown you his true colors and presumably his views aren’t going to change.

  4. Seifer*

    I’m going to be taking on a lot more responsibility since my boss will be MIA come January (long, possibly identifying store) and I think I’m going to ask for a raise today. No work issues, just hoping for some luck!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Good choice! If they don’t give you something, that’s a sign they suck. That’s a long time to be without a boss. If they trust you that much, they should pay you more.

  5. Karnitha*

    Hey all, any tips on how best to use LinkedIn connections to find out about work-life balance in a particular company? I have several connections on LinkedIn who work for company X. I would like to get an idea of how the company approaches work-life balance for its employees (flex hours, standard work hours, requirements on overtime and working on evenings and weekends, etc.).

    Common job-hunting convention discourages these types of questions until you have an offer. Previous posts in this blog say a common way to get around that is to ask your networks. However, I actually have never met my LinkedIn contacts in this company face to face. I just know them in a very superficial way online and we managed to connect in LinkedIn. I was wondering what would be a good approach to ask work-life balance questions where they work to someone who doesn’t really know you all that well.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the best thing to do would be to build up a rapport with your connections, so when you ask the question, it isn’t completely out of the blue. If you were a connection I’d never met in person, and you’d never messaged me about anything, and we’d never had a conversation about anything, and then you suddenly said “Hey, Anonymous Educator, what’s the work-life balance like at your company?” I don’t know that I’d feel super comfortable being candid with you. Who are you?

    2. Liz*

      Are you comfortable asking for a face-to-face meeting? People do this with me a lot on LinkedIn, and I don’t mind it at all. Not everyone is open to it (there was a recent AAM post about this, in fact), but in my mind, LinkedIn is a networking platform; if you don’t want to actually network with people, why have a profile there?

      Anyway, I usually have coffee with someone outside the company a couple of times per month. I hate it when people send me InMail and ask to “pick my brain” (gross), but when someone genuinely expresses interest in the company where I work and says they’d like to learn more about the culture, leaders, etc., I’m more than happy to help. I wish I would have had a safe place to ask those questions before I joined the company. Plus, I get to learn about other companies in my area in return (and why people are interested in leaving those companies), which helps me as I consider other options in my career path.

    3. spock*

      I do interviews fairly frequently and I don’t think it’s strange at all when candidates ask a few questions about work/life balance, core hours, etc. In fact it’s a great way to sell them on our company because we have a very god work/life balance and are proud of it. Caveat that hiring in my industry or at least my company seems to be more casual than other places going by a lot of things I read on this blog so maybe we’re outliers in that regard.

    4. CAA*

      I disagree that you have to wait until you have an offer to ask about things like “flex hours, standard work hours, requirements on overtime and working on evenings and weekends”. I’ve asked, and been asked, these questions many times during ordinary interviews. You can ask your prospective manager or prospective peers or both. You don’t want to harp on it in a way that makes the interviewer think that you’re trying to figure out how to work the least possible amount of time, but it’s certainly reasonable to ask one or two questions about the typical working hours and how much overtime most people in the department work.

      And it’s also fine to reach out to your LinkedIn contacts (as long as they’re not part of the interview process you’re in) and ask if they’d do an informational interview. Again, working hours shouldn’t be your primary topic of conversation, but it’s fine to ask about it.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I also think you can ask some general work-life balance questions during the interview process. What should wait until after an offer is something like a standing appointment that means you need to leave every other Thursday at 4, no exceptions.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      Common job-hunting convention discourages these types of questions until you have an offer.

      Sorry—I missed this part of your question. Uh, where did you read that? I doubt Alison would have said that on this site. You can absolutely ask about it before the offer stage. I don’t know if I would ask about it in an initial phone screen, but it’s 100% appropriate for even the first in-person interview.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ah, but that’s about negotiating a flexible work schedule. That’s different than just asking about typical hours and work-life balance generally!

          1. Karnitha*

            Hi Alison, the gist of the OP’s question in the 2013 post I cited was about asking about work hours and related issues such as flex time and whether it was appropriate to ask about these things early in the interview process (1st or 2nd interview) or wait until and offer has been made.

              1. Karnitha*

                So you would advise, as the others who chimed in, that conventions aren’t as strict to ask about work-life balance questions (standard core work hours, flex time, working beyond the traditional core hours and how much typically) early in the interview process? I understand that some employers might be uptight about this info (as they could be about salary). As a working parent of a young child this is crucial info for me whether it is worth continuing in an interview process.

                1. Anonymous Educator*

                  I think the thing about waiting until the offer stage is really about “You have standard policies in place, but I’d like to ask for an exception to your policy.”

                  If you’re just asking about company culture and general approaches to work-life balance, that isn’t asking for an exception, so it’s perfectly fine to ask about during the regular interview process.

                3. Karnitha*

                  Ah! Thank you both! I knew there was a piece of the puzzle I wasn’t quite seeing. You just put it together for me

    7. DouDouPaille*

      “Common job-hunting convention discourages these types of questions until you have an offer” – I would disagree with this. I have always asked about this during the interview process, as part of my fact-finding around the company’s culture. Questions such as “how many hours per week on average are expected for this position,” or “does the company offer flex-time or work at home arrangements for any employees (and can you give examples),” or “what sorts of celebratory/social activities do you offer for employees” can give you an idea of what to expect.

  6. merp*

    I’m just going to say that the last 2 days have been really rough for some reason, everything I’m working on has been so frustrating, and if anyone needs to commiserate/vent about otherwise-usually-fine jobs, feel free to join me. Can’t wait to get home today and let all of this go.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It’s rough, yes. Doesn’t help that I slept weird last night, and my neck is stiff and sore and is apparently deciding that muscle spasms are called for. At work.

    2. Amber Rose*

      One of my coworkers was away for a day, and that was the day my boss discovered that coworkers had been massively screwing up since like, October and it’s going to take days to fix, and then we had a quick impromptu meeting to talk about it and how horrible it all is.

      Then the next day when the coworker was back, my boss said to me that things felt kind of tense. Like. Gee, I wonder why? You only spent an hour or so ranting about her.

    3. anna green*

      SAME. This week, man. I am ready for the weekend. Actually I am ready for NEXT weekend because I have a lot of days off around the holidays.

    4. WomanOfMystery*

      I’m blaming the EXTREME darkness—I’ve been irritable and sleepy. But still, I can’t figure out how to run this report and it’s just sooooo frustrating.

    5. Kes*

      Haha same for me, I totally burnt out on my current project this week and had to take the afternoon off. Luckily everyone was very understanding and they shifted the task that was causing the problems to someone else.
      I can’t wait to be done this project, although unfortunately I’m not sure my next project will be much better. Hopefully the one after that will be good. It is a good company in general though, this project has just had a lot of changes due to things beyond our control.

    6. Ama*

      It has taken me a full month to recover from the big meeting that ended my busiest most-high stakes annual project at my work — I felt like I had to do a lot more managing of attendees’ egos and anxieties this year and I’m trying to figure out why.

      Yesterday I had an epiphany that my continued dread over our spring meeting season is entirely because of one extra meeting that was supposed to be a fairly simple, low-key meeting and which has been an ongoing battle to keep it that way because of the unrealistic expectations of the committee helping us plan the meeting. That partially comes back to managing egos again and partially just their refusal to commit to details — we’re four months out and haven’t invited any speakers (which is really behind schedule in our field — you want to be 6-8 months out for initial speaker invites).

      I’m going to spend at least part of my holiday break trying to figure out how I can handle all this ego management without getting emotionally exhausted myself.

    7. KR*

      I’m with you, combined with the fact that I feel like I am starving for sunlight (I live in the desert but this time change is killing me) and I can’t focus at all this week and I have A TON to do.

      1. Snow Drift*

        Same. It has been raining or overcast here since the springtime. I can count the truly sunny days in 2018 on two hands. We’ve had flooding and mudslides in an area never before known for either. Everyone is tense, brittle, and ready to snap. I cannot handle this weather anymore.

        1. RUKiddingMe*

          I choose to live in Seattle for many reasons including the weather (yeah, I’m weird like that). We had a nice mild summer here but as usual I was ready for fall as it’s my favorite season. The time change, dark at 4:00 PM, and then however many days of rain it’s been so far is starting to wear on me. I have a whole taxes/accounting thing I should be paying attention to but I’m procrastinating and this weather isn’t helping me feel more like doing it.

    8. Adlib*

      I already have holiday-brain even though my vacation doesn’t start until the end of next week. Next week will be killer with the anticipation, AND my performance review is also scheduled.

      I’m also irritated because I picked a so-so gift in the gift exchange/swap this morning, and I have no idea why. (I could have stolen homemade moonshine – WTH, me?)

    9. Alice Ulf*

      My coworkers keep chatting in obnoxious, cutesy baby-talk and just. It has been such a long, demoralizing week and I just. I just CAN’T today. *silent scream*

      1. Minocho*

        My mom and I do this sometimes. I don’t even realize when it’s happening – and it’s embarassing when I realize I”m doing it.

        Oh, and I do that with my cats sometimes, when the cuteness is overwhelming…

        But! I would never do it at work!

    10. Ealasaid*

      Hard same! Dunno what is up this week, but it’s been full of massive aggro on almost all fronts (dayjob crap, side-hustle crap, volunteer-org crap, etc.). Definitely looking forward to it being over. I am tired of that stabbity “oh shit, something is wrong” feeling. Here’s hoping this weekend is enough to reset and next week will suck less.

    11. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh yeah. It’s been a rough 10-ish days for me. I’m uncovering favoritism– gender-based– and a lot of weird hostility and resistance to change, and it just suuuuucks. The good thing for me is that I spent some time trying to figure out what niche I want to carve out for myself here, and I think I’ve landed on something great, but I need buy-in. Because of the favoritism/sexism issues, buy-in will be tough. And I can’t just throw in the towel for a variety of reasons.

      I am basically plodding along until next Friday, after which I’m out for something like 10 days.

    12. a*

      We just got a new tracking and reporting system, and nothing works and nothing is the same as we’ve been doing things for 20+ years (except for the things we hated and thought were useless – those things remain). We’re totally uncomfortable with the new normal and it’s going to take a while to get used to things.

      What’s most irritating is that instead of having some people who can answer questions when you ask them, we’re all just supposed to randomly hack away at the system and see what happens. That is not a very scientific way of operating, considering we’re a laboratory.

      Fortunately, after today, I will be working 2 more days this year!

    13. Tris Prior*

      OMG, yes. My company is usually fairly sane, but I’ve been put onto a project that…. I guess all the decision-makers forgot about until now? And now everyone is panicking because AAAAAAAA, no one’s given this any thought and the teapots are due in a month. And our turnaround times require a TARDIS.

      And I keep finding myself in this loop of “Tris, when can you have these teapots done?” / “That depends on when I receive them to work on, how many teapots there are, and whether the teapots are clean or need cleanup – can you tell me any of that?” / “oh, we have no idea when we can turn them over or what they’ll need or how many there are …. but Tris, when can you have them done?” Why is this concept hard?

      As an added bonus, pretty much everyone at our company takes large amounts of vacation around the holidays. I don’t, Christmas isn’t that important to me, I don’t travel, I don’t have kids so no school breaks to work around. I like the quiet, actually. But now I’m being pressured to turn stuff around super quickly because we need approvals from the people who are going on vacation. I fail to see how accommodating what feels like the entire company’s vacation schedules is my problem, but here we are.

    14. Funny Cide*

      “Hey I know I’ve made us fall months behind on our goal for this project but I can’t figure out how to make this work so here are approximately 400 individual PDFs sorry I don’t know how many copies of each we need but good luck getting them mailed to all the right people!”

      At least it’s a new project and doesn’t truly have a concrete deadline, so nobody is blaming me, but I have never sighed so hard.

    15. BeanCat*

      Just wanted to shout out my company for being awesome this week. I got assaulted on my way to work one day this week and ended up not going in (I’m okay, was minor in the grand scheme of things and I’m very lucky). They were amazing about finding me coverage and making sure I was okay more than anything, and people have been super understanding that I’m a bit out of sorts and foggy this week (I proactively told people I work closely with in case I seemed off). Maybe my bar of happiness is set too low but I appreciated them making it so much easier for me to come back and be normal but also be understanding that I’m not 100 percent yet.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yikes that puts so much different perspective on my week, now I’m sheepish for whining about the re-work. I’m glad your office responded so well. Feel better!

    16. Maggie May*

      here’s my life, just to vent:
      1) not done christmas shopping. mostly planned, though.
      2) meeting with husband’s sister today, who left her husband for a woman and has been a real b about it
      3) meeting her ex husband next friday for solidarity, she done him wrong
      4a) manager scheduled a “1:1” to touch base on monday, you now know what I know
      4b) told program manager drunkenly at a holiday party I was planning on moving on, is that what the 1:1 is about?
      5) was working on a new job with an old boss, but they came at me with a salary that is 1.5k over what I make now. their insurance has a 2k higher deductible, it’s 20 more minutes driving, and no open time off.
      6) I’m driving to my mom’s for christmas, but I have to pick up my brother at my ex-step-dad’s house (his dad) and he has caused me nothing but drama.
      7) oh hey I’m in constant pain from a torn shoulder labrum and endometriosis
      8) I’m having surgery for the endo on Dec 28. Asked for three more days off to cover recovery, is this the 1:1 meeting? I do not know. I qualify for fmla, so it shouldn’t be a thing either way.
      9) from the surgery I can’t drink on christmas :( my family is A LOT
      10) it’s end of year and I work in a sales-adjacent department, and we have to get revenue up. we switched the company to our custom solution (what my team does) and it’s not going smoothly. Everyone waits til last minute to get revenue/time in.

      anyway I’m a ball of stress.

      1. BeanCat*

        Maggie May, as a fellow endo sufferer I am sending you all the good vibes – please take care of yourself as best as you can!

        1. Maggie May*

          thanks! I got a prescription for mefenamic acid which has helped, but in the us it was almost $400 for 30 pills! In europe it’s like $3 for that much. insane. luckily I met my deductible (hence the december 28 surgery)

    17. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My Friday was spent on re-work for 3 different projects because the warranty return address for a region has been changed and no one mentioned it to me to include in my deliverable. This was on the schedule for March, but the new address was set up in November, and “everyone knew”… because of meetings no one thought to Skype me in on.
      It was a totally avoidable day’s delay on project 4.

  7. Revoked work from home*

    It was just announced that my office is longer supporting work from home. I’m feeling pretty betrayed because the chance to have that perk was one of the reasons I made what is a pretty lateral transfer in taking this job. I’ve only been in the role for five months but this will definitely be a factor in my deciding not to stay long term – however, I would feel weird quitting this fast.

    Is it even worth saying anything to my boss about this? Or should I just grit my teeth and get through a year, then start looking. If I told her I would leave over this, I’m sure she’d think it was odd that I wasn’t more dedicated or that a perk like this was such a big factor (also, I’m guessing she’ll say it was never explicitly promised to me in our interview/offer conversations).

    1. Kes*

      That sucks. I would probably consider leaving over that. Did they give any reason for the change (that you might be able to counter)?
      I would at least mention it in your exit interview if you do leave. They may not be willing to change the policy for one person, but they should know they are losing people over it.

    2. Catleesi*

      Is there a reason you need to wait a year? If you’ve had longer tenures in past positions I think this would be seen as a reasonable excuse for job searching so early.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Yes, that’s something Alison has said–if you took the job on condition A and they take away condition A, prospective new employers shouldn’t consider that a red flag if it’s an isolated incident. (If you are always discovering that your theory of the job and the actual job are wildly divergent, that’s a pattern and one they might rightly be concerned about.)

        1. Revoked work from home*

          Yeah, last time I was searching for a lot longer than I thought, so I assume even if I started looking now I’d probably end up staying in place for at least a year, maybe a year and change.

      3. Revoked work from home*

        It just doesn’t sit right with me to be leaving so quickly, when I just got through training and I’m finally up to speed and contributing at last. I realize that this is their mess, but I wouldn’t feel right. And it’s a non profit so our clients would be the ones who suffered in the end. It’s not a perk I *need,* it’s just one I really wanted and valued.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I do think you should be able to explain to your boss that you are really disappointed and the work from home was a major reason you took the job. Best case, that’s an “Oh, people do care about this” that adjusts management’s thinking. And three months from now you don’t quit and explain why, only to hear “But… that was totally flexible!”

          You want to avoid phrasing it as “If I can’t work from home I’m GONE” unless that’s what you really mean, but there should be ways to indicate that a job perk is welcome and important (or not something you ever use) that’s just useful feedback to management about what sort of things employees value.

          1. Revoked work from home*

            Yeah, this feels like the right balance. I acknowledge it was kind of my fault for not nailing down a more solid commitment on the issue at the offer stage. If it had been clarified I would have more to stand on now, but it was always a little vague exactly what the boundaries were.

            1. SUCH a rejection letter!*

              You might have gotten a solid reassurance and then *still* lost the perk due to business decisions.

              If it helps, there is a solid financial issue here. How much does your commute cost? If your commute expenses go up because of this change, that’s the same as them deciding to pay you less. (This is one of those areas where “total compensation” matters, not just actual paycheck. Like, if I get a job that pays my medical insurance 100%, that will be equivalent to about $10,000 a year.) So, you’re not being petty, you’re protecting your total income.

    3. Dasein9*

      That truly sucks. If it were me, I’d mention to my supervisor that this perk was a factor in my accepting their offer and ask if there was room for negotiation.

      1. Revoked work from home*

        Would you do this in an employee review, maybe? I feel like my boss might be surprised to hear how big a deal this is to me, and I also worry it looks kind of bad, like I’m not dedicated to the mission.

        1. So long and thanks for all the fish*

          I feel that BECAUSE your boss might be surprised, it’s more important to mention it (respectfully, of course). I don’t think it would look bad, especially if you took the offer in part because of it. If it’s big enough to you to be worth leaving over and you otherwise like your job and trust your boss, you should mention it.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Yeah I agree. If you think your boss would be surprised at how big a deal it is, it’s really important to say, “Hey, I’d really love some insight into the process behind revoking WFH for our employees. WFH was a really key benefit for me moving into this position.” Then wait for his response.

        2. Parenthetically*

          Anyone who takes your frustration at having a benefit taken away as some kind of lack of dedication is a toolbag. It’s absolutely natural to be annoyed when a part of the job you valued and appreciated is taken away and it says nothing about how serious an employee you are.

        3. Dasein9*

          I think you can frame it in such a way as to highlight just why the WFH is good for your work, and thus the mission, as well as for you. Concentration is easier, less fatigue from the commute, etc.

    4. Knitty Gritty*

      I’m in exactly the same boat. I interviewed for a position and started early this year. During the interviews, I explicitly asked about the work from home policy and was told that working from home allowed. As a software developer, working from home is extremely common but I like to check during interviews. Imagine my surprise on my first day of work when an email was sent to the entire company that the work from home policy had changed and working from home was no longer allowed. I may stick it out a few more months to get to a year, but I’ve already started looking for new job.

      1. Revoked work from home*

        But are you going to bring it up? Or just leave and mention it in your exit interview? As others have said, I think it might be valuable to at least register my disappointment with this decision, respectfully, and only once. There’s a (slim) chance they’d actually change their mind if they realized they were going to lose a staffperson over this. I’m trying to weigh this against the risk of seeming trivial. I know Alison has said that perks like bringing your dog in, or flex hours, can change, and it’s just one of those things.

        1. So long and thanks for all the fish*

          Just because something can change doesn’t mean an employer wouldn’t make a different decision with more information, like that someone took the job specifically because they offered the perk. Particularly since it seems more related to preference than any specific business need, as you say below- they might make the decision it’s better to keep you from job searching than be able to pester people whenever they need. And maybe you can make the case that you’re more productive when you work from home specifically because you get pestered so often in the office! I’m rooting for you.

        2. Knitty Gritty*

          I already have brought it up to my boss – who is awesome and also new. The new policy took him by surprise. He’s trying to work something out to get the policy modified, but is getting some push-back. We talk and check-in frequently, so I definitely am not looking to leave immediately but am still keeping an eye out if that makes sense…

          1. Revoked work from home*

            Ooh, do you remember exactly how you phrased it? I’m trying to picture a script that doesn’t make me sound whiny or like I’m threatening to quit. “Can I just say I was quite disappointed by the work from home announcement, as that was a factor for me in my decision to join the team” …?

            1. Knitty Gritty*

              It went much like that, but I like your wording better than what I said! I said “Being able to work from home is an important perk I’ve had for well over 10 years and I’m disappointed that the new policy preventing that went into effect the day I started here.” I do have a good relationship with my boss, so I’ve been pretty honest about how I feel.

    5. Coffee with my Creamer*

      Do you know the reason they stopped allowing working from home? I am guessing it is either performance, or a security/privacy violation that your work was not prepared for and if it is that will be out of your managers control. If someone just doesn’t like having employees at home it will be easier assuming you are a top performer or have a skill set that would be hard to replace. If its the latter then I would request a meeting with my supervisor and explain that this a huge benefit that you were getting out of this job and taking it away puts you at a disadvantage and ask if there is room for a compromise of maybe 3 days at home either now or in the future.

      1. Revoked work from home*

        From what I can tell, our leadership just likes to be able to pester people in person. If they want a file or have a question, they want to be able to tap you on the shoulder and stop what you’re doing and answer their question. That’s actually one reason I loved my from-home days, because I could concentrate on complex tasks without being interrupted so often with minutiae like, “I can’t get the printer to work,” or “I can’t find the paperclips.” (that’s my grandboss talking).

        1. hello hi hello*

          That’s a good question bc with a nonprofit, they might site client data being on different severs or wifis or whatever being an issue. But from what you are saying, that isn’t the case

        2. Marthooh*

          I could concentrate on complex tasks without being interrupted so often with minutiae like, “I can’t get the printer to work,” or “I can’t find the paperclips.”

          This is something you should mention when you bring it up with your boss — WFH actually makes you more productive. That’s a good reason to rethink the policy, or make an exception for you.

    6. BRR*

      I’d most likely say something unless I was only working from home like once or twice a year or if my performance was poor. Something about how this was a big selling point of the job and ask if they might allow it for your position.

    7. A tester, not a developer*

      My company has done something similiar; you can have WFH days ‘as needed’, but nothing scheduled.
      I work from home one day a week in part, mostly to help manage symptoms of a chronic illness. I ended going through the disability accommodation process (which was a freakin’ nightmare), but got to keep my WFH day.

      Is there any way you could get them to agree to a partly WFH arrangement?

      1. Revoked work from home*

        Yeah in the past it’s been ad-hoc, and I’ve been doing one day every two weeks or so, whenever I had a slow day and the right kind of tasks to do. I usually phrased it as needing to concentrate on a certain task so I was going to work from home on X day.

        But I was hoping to get a formal one-day-a-week schedule, and was planning on discussing this with my boss. So clearly that’s not going to happen – now I’ve lost even the opportunity to do the infrequent days I was already doing. Part of me is wondering if my boss has been dissatisfied with system and just didn’t mention it. But I think it’s coming from my grandboss who doesn’t like to see people gone from the office.

        1. Lexi Kate*

          Is your regular job able to be work at home or do they need your position to be in the office to fulfill the duties?

          1. Revoked work from home*

            It certainly couldn’t be 100% work from home, given the team collaboration my boss envisions, but there’s a good segment of it that involves managing an online database that could be done from home if they chose. I was hoping to get one day a week.

    8. Public Sector Manager*

      I think you should absolutely tell your boss!

      We have these issues at my work all the time. Our executive team makes an unpopular decision, the vast majority of coworkers get upset yet say nothing, and then when I advocate for my team about how bad the decision is and how it is hurting morale, the executives cite the lack of replies as evidence that I’m just stirring the pot and that no one is upset at the decision.

      Since the lack of work from home is a deal breaker for you, and if your manager is a good manager, they need to know. There are no guarantees that your company will change its approach, but as least they will know that there decision will cost them good employees.

      Best of luck to you!

    9. The New Wanderer*

      I’d say it makes sense to bring it up to your boss, since it is kind of a deal-breaker to you. Personally, I think you should look around now if you think it will take more than a few months to line up another opportunity. As mentioned, it doesn’t commit you to taking something else ‘early’ but if you find the right fit, you’d have that option.

      Personally, I turned down further interviews with a company after determining that they would only allow WFH rarely, rather than a regularly scheduled thing. If they had said regular WFH was available and then revoked it after I started working there, I’d leave over it too. For that particular case, I’d probably leave even before lining something up because there’s no way I could hack the daily commute and fixed hours to that location – WFH was the only thing making it worth considering the position.

      1. Revoked work from home*

        Yeah, my attachment to WFH is not as strong as yours, it’s just something I’d value and enjoy. None of my other jobs have ever allowed it so it’s not as if I’m unfamiliar with only in-office jobs. If I felt even more strongly, as you say, I would have made it a fundamental criteria in my job search and made it explicit in the offer, and then yes I’d have less qualms about quitting immediately. There’s no reason I can’t come in every day, I just … don’t want to.

        1. valentine*

          You’ve made a lot of assumptions about how the talk will go and are prioritizing how you assume people will see you, but you can certainly center yourself and not set yourself on fire to keep the clients warm, as it were. Tell your supervisor you were going to ask to WFH on a formal schedule and see what she says. Your grandboss wants you there for stupid reasons (I can only hope the tapping is figurative and, if you’re not an admin, redirect them to someone who fixes printers and sources paper clips) and you’re losing here, not just a perk but money, at least in commuting and possibly meals. They’re not giving you anything as a salve; they just expect you to pay more to work now and, if you resist, you think they’ll shame you because “mission.” That’s gross. Do what serves you, including looking now, because if you find somewhere with WFH and more reasonable people, you can go, even if the only mission you fulfill is your own.

  8. Armchair Analyst*

    I just realized that this is the kind of workplace where if someone doesn’t show up for a day, I wonder if they’ve been fired, or possibly quit, and I’m not sure who to ask or if I’d ever find out.

    Today on “This Workplace Might Be Toxic….,” I am looking for a new job!

  9. Toxic waste*

    I work in a place where if you make an error, you can’t just fix it and move on. You have to go through the entire process of what happened, why, what, where, when, etc.
    Someone came in and questioned an entry that was simply switched. Emotions got the best of me and I explained that “coworker started the process, then I finalized the report. At the time it was my first week at the company.”

    I wasn’t sure what to say, but I’m worried that I threw coworker under the bus or something. Did I say something wrong? Looking back on it, I should have just said that I would look into it or something, but I panicked. Was what I said bad?

    1. Tara S.*

      No, you’re fine. You explained the facts, didn’t really try to blame the coworker. They made a mistake and you pointed that out, yes, but you also made a mistake in that you didn’t catch the error, understandable since you were new. This seems like a very minor issue. Even though you had to go through that analysis process, it was just standard. I wouldn’t think about it anymore and just move on.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think you’re fine. That sounds like a legitimate process error — if it were a pattern, maybe the management would take it as a sign that one person should do a task from start to finish rather than hand off. I understand the desire to just move on, but taking a moment to find out why errors occurred and how to prevent them in the future — as long as it’s not just unhelpful finger pointing — is a sign of good management in my opinion.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      This sounds like it could be root cause analysis, which in some jobs might be sensible and de rigeur? Wanting an answer to a mix-up that is more precise than “mix-ups happen” doesn’t necessarily mean they want to rake people over the coals and engage in public shaming.

      1. Susan*

        Yup. I think it’s done well where i work, but that’s because a central tenant is that the goal is not to place blame but it is to figure out what happened and how to make changes to try to avoid similar problems in the future. The post-mortem is written in such a way that most of the time no one knows specifically who made mistakes (if indeed there were mistakes made, vs. process holes discovered).

    4. KR*

      I think you’re fine! I have explained errors and decisions I’ve made by saying that too, pretty much “I did this when I first started and didn’t have the know-how to deal with it correctly and experience to understand why it needed to be done a certain way.”

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      You did fine. Your explanation actually puts more of the responsibility on you, since you finalized it, but gives a clear reason: you were new. Reasonable bosses will just move on.

      Root cause analysis can be really valuable. The thing bosses are looking for is: “I understand what happened, and have done stuff or have a plan to prevent it from happening again”. So you could have added, ‘I would recognize that entry needed fixing now.’

    6. Workerbee*

      Totally fine, especially with such a rigid process looming no matter what the error was.

      (And I still remember being blamed for doing what someone had trained me to do during my first week(s) on a job, including my boss’s incredulous, “But she trained you on X? She doesn’t even do X!” that still managed to blame me. Had I been more savvy, I’d have spoken up instead of subsiding into confused resentment.)

  10. Amber Rose*

    We raised a ton of money yesterday for charity. And the best part is I was doing food prep and then running games, so I did not have to do basically any actual work all day. I just had some fun.

    Today is the day though. Or rather, tonight, which is when we’re having our Christmas party. And I think I heard something about karaoke. Wish me luck! -_-

    1. Dasein9*

      Karaoke?

      Please choose the appropriate well-wishes for your situation:
      ______ Oh, I am so sorry. ______ Break a leg!

    3. Mimi Me*

      Oooohhh..karaoke at a Christmas party? I love Karaoke but only if I don’t know the people singing. Back in the day my senior prom decided to do karaoke and I could never look at some of my classmates the same way again. Good Luck there!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I won’t sing among coworkers, but I’m more worried about song choices, given that previous years have seen some pretty explicit music pop up once requests were open.

        I don’t wanna hear sexual songs from my boss. D:

  11. Help*

    Word has it that either my coworker or myself might be let go once the new software program is up and running. (There is no need for two people.) Coworker has been with the company for 15 years, I’ve only been there for a year. Coworker is well-known and very liked, I’m quiet and I don’t think they like me much. I have more degrees and technical experience, coworker doesn’t.

    It feels stressful to be on the chopping block. Besides applying to other jobs, is there anything that I should be doing? In interviews, should I say that is why I’m leaving?

    1. learnedthehardway*

      I would say that you understand that once the new technology is implemented, it is likely that your role will be eliminated. You’ve been there for a year, and while you’re getting good performance reviews, you’re being realistic that your colleague has been with the company for 15 years and is also a great performer. You’re looking for internal opportunities with the company, as you really like the culture (if that’s at all true), but you have to be realistic that your role is specialized / there may not be opportunities / whatever, so you are being proactive.

      You could then talk about what you want to find – just phrase it in a way that the interviewer sees the value you’d bring in their organization. Eg. “I’m looking for a company that can use my extensive basketweaving 2.0 experience, and where I can work on collaborative teams.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      In interviews, should I say that is why I’m leaving?

      I don’t think you should lead with that as the primary reason you’re leaving, but you shouldn’t hide it either.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Just preparing yourself to be ready in case you do end up on the chopping block is the best you can do. Perhaps you can talk to your boss about it, I don’t know your rapport with them but I feel like it wouldn’t be a big deal to flat out ask what the future of the department/your job looks like.

      In interviews I think you can tell the truth – you’ve heard your position may be eliminated in the near future and you’re acting accordingly.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Just keep yesterday’s update and its original letter in mind; don’t accept an offer just because you think you’re on the chopping block. If it’s a good one, yes, but unless you absolutely know for certain that you will be laid off, weigh things very carefully.

    5. ChachkisGalore*

      Sometimes when layoffs come around the person making the higher salary (I’m assuming the coworker who’s been with the company for 15yrs would have a higher salary – though that could be totally wrong) is the one on the chopping block because it provides more savings. I don’t mean to get your hopes up or indicate that you shouldn’t be looking. Last in, first out is obviously a well know thing, but just don’t assume it will 100%, definitely be you to go.

    6. Workerbee*

      I hope that word is wrong! And that regardless, your job searches land you in a place where you don’t have to have this kind of stress or worry.

    7. SUCH a rejection letter!*

      Don’t tell them you’re job-hunting because you heard a rumor — it won’t reflect well on you. *Do* say what learnedthehardway suggests: You suspect that only 1 role will be needed once the software is fully implemented, and you’re interested in this position because (good reason here). You don’t need to say that you figure you’ll be the one getting the chop, even though that’s true. It’s negative and they can fill in that blank themselves.

      But also, “Word has it”? I’d be talking to your boss about this before you do anything else. Remember that firing people is expensive, hiring and training people is expensive, and if you’ve been there a year you know the company well-enough that they may have something else in mind.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Normal advice is to not discuss leaving a company with your manager–but it’s different to confirm rumors. “People are saying the Teapot 3.0 software rollout will not require two people to support. This worries me. What can you tell me about the company’s plans for my position? ”

      Sure layoffs are always possible –but so is promoting your long-time co-worker out of the department. So is expanding your role develop Cups&Saucers 1.0.
      So ask!

  12. Skuffende*

    How does your company handle employee absences due to natural disasters? In the past year, people at mine have been affected by fires, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, and tornadoes. One displaced employee was harassed nonstop for not being as responsive to email as their supervisor wanted. Another was completely unable to work after losing their house and are being made to use vacation time to cover the “time off”.

    Is my company especially heartless or is this fairly typical? Not good either way, but it would be useful to know.

    2. CatCat*

      I work for government in my state. The agency can grant administrative time off for employees impacted by natural disasters. It can be paid or unpaid. I’m not sure what usually occurs though.

    3. Hurricane working*

      We had time off for Hurricane Michael. We had to work every day up until it hit, and then allowed to work from home the day it was gonna hit. We were told to log in as much as possible (which was not possible after our power went out…so not much) and then we had a code we used for our timesheets that was specifically for natural disasters that we logged the rest of the time we WOULD have worked. So—expected to work as much as possible from home,

    4. LKW*

      This feels especially heartless. During one massive hurricane on the east coast, my company rented a hotel room next to the office so that people without services could come to the office, bring their family to the hotel where they could get power, shower, do laundry, whatever. You just had to work with the other families. They bought pizza for the office because a lot of people were without power at home, but the office had power so you could charge up all of your phones and whatevers.

      Replacing your house should be considered akin to bereavement, not vacation.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      My workplace had to close for Hurricanes Ike and Harvey, so we weren’t asked to use PTO for that time. However, if the building is accessible and functioning (and it’s in an area where it’s especially likely to be out of commission during a hurricane, so most employees’ homes will be safe before the workplace will be), we’re open and employees are expected to be there as usual.

      I’m not sure how they handled any extra time off some of our employees needed whose homes were lost/badly damaged (but I’m also not sure how much extra time off they needed. I know that they were not absent much more than the rest of us.)

    6. Shark Whisperer*

      It seems heartless to me, but I also work for an organization that does some emergency response work, so they take natural disasters very seriously. You get paid time off and they pay to evacuate you and your dependents if you are in a mandatory evacuation zone.

    7. Turtlewings*

      I’m still holding a grudge against a fairly dysfunctional ex-job that docked me vacation pay for calling out during an ice storm (in the South, where no one has infrastructure or experience to deal with frozen roads). Those of my coworkers who did come into work that day experienced scary sliding on the roads, and then were stranded in town when the roads closed (including a diabetic coworker who luckily had some insulin with her). The news was full of fatal accidents and people camping inside gas stations; our whole half of the state was shut down for three days. My workplace closed 45 minutes after my shift would have started. But my coworkers all got bad-weather pay, whereas I had to use vacation time because I (politely) refused to take my life in my hands and drive 60 miles in conditions that had the governor begging people to stay home.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      holeeee – totally heartless.

      I work for a fortune 500 tech co, with offices in FL, NC & CA, so we got everything but the earthquakes. The company put some employees in short-term corp housing, facilitated donations, let people wfh if they needed to meet contractors, and pushes managers to support their employees who are caught in disasters. My co’s not perfect, but they provide effective support to employees caught up in large-scale disasters.

      Honestly, the more I hear about other companies, the more I’m willing to put up with from mine.

    9. Coffee with my Creamer*

      My company people have to use all but 1 week of their PTO before the disaster relief will kick in. Depending on their level at the company responding to emails varied, workers with key positions or positions that would impact the company in major ways were still needed to be available through phone and email and not miss deadlines, where less key roles were able to be picked up for a few weeks by other markets. For us it really depended on your job and what you had that was due and the impact of that. We are a very large company and our workers that lost their homes to the fire are getting 6 weeks paid leave and a stipend from our foundation, I cant imagine that a small company could take a hit for more than 1 or 2 lower end workers doing this.

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        We define some people (or some teams) as ‘business critical’ – basically if the stock markets are open they need to be available. But they’ve all been made aware of that fact, and have been told what the plans are if there’s a natural disaster or other emergency (up to and including moving them into an anonymous bunker like building to work). I was so happy when I was no longer business critical. :)

    10. Wren*

      My company has been great. We have a company funded Employee Relief Fund that gives up to 5 grand for emergencies like funerals and disasters and we paid everyone who worked in Puerto Rico the entire time they were out of power.

    11. Isotopes*

      Not recently, but due to river flooding, our building was shut down for a few days (the parkade was under water). My manager at the time phoned everyone to let them know that we weren’t expected to work, that the building was shut down, and that we were to stay safe. And we’d be updated once the building was accessible again. Then said to make sure we stayed up to date on the company’s social media page for any other updates. A few people had work-from-home access and did what they could, but the understanding was that since no one had any idea that the flood was going to be as bad as it was, it’s not like we were prepared for it.

      I think your company sounds pretty heartless.

    12. Minocho*

      I live in Houston. I’m in a neighborhood drastically affected by the flooding (abuts the Addicks Reservoir).

      We have an emergency situation system that calls, texts and emails all contact points (unless we indicate the message was received) when we don’t have to come in for work due to unexpected situations. We all were notified to stay at home during the hurricane. We worked light duty from home during work hours if possible. My supervisor checked in on me about once a day to see how I was doing. I know he reported our general status up the chain.

      On day three, the water stopped draining into the storm drains and started coming out of them – the reservoir was full, flooding, and they were already releasing flood waters on the city to keep the reservoir walls from collapsing. It was time to abandon the house. I informed my bosses, arranged a place to land with my cats, put all my electronics as far up off the ground as I could manage, turned off the electricity to the house and evacuated.

      While I was evacuated, there was no expectation that I would work. I could to a little bit remotely, and I tried, but I was frankly useless the rest of that week and into the next. My boss and his boss called me occasionally to see how I was doing and ensure I was safe. Our company set up a relief center at one of their trucking bases, and gave free gas to employees, and distributed food and water.

      When I got home (my house missed flooding by about 3 inches, according to my neighbor’s security camera), my company made sure we were all aware of a company run charity for employees affected by disaster – you could submit a form and get cash to handle emergency expenses and pay home insurance deductibles! I had to replace my home’s roof, and the deductible was covered by an grant from this charity. I couldn’t help crying when I got the check. Other employees had tornados hit their homes during the storms, or lost cars or homes to flooding – and I know some personally that were helped as I was.

      They were amazingly awesome – and it’s an attitude that’s enforced and encouraged from the top down.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I’d sit beside you and cry right along with you. That is amazing. This is what good leadership looks like.

    13. CatMintCat*

      I’ve had direct experience of this – we were flooded out of our home in 2012, and lived in alternative accommodation for eighteen months while repairs were done. There is nothing like the mess left behind when eighteen inches of dirty, oil and chemical laden water sits in your home for a week. It was a tough time.

      Work (government education department) was fantastic. Once we were allowed back into the house to start cleaning, I got a week off to do that. I was fully paid, and it didn’t come out of any leave I had accrued, it was just paid. Other time off as needed, flood-related, was also fully paid.

      A couple of other teachers at my school were affected differently. The water didn’t get into their houses, but they weren’t able to get to school due to road closures. If they could get to another public school they reported there for the days necessary and, if not, they were also paid for the days off.

      i never want to do that again, but the support from work was amazing.

    14. Michio Pa*

      My company has special leave due to anything that causes transportation to stop working (like if a whole road is closed or train line is shut down). We’re also granted time off for really bad weather like typhoons or heavy snow. Not sure what they’d do if someone lost their home but we have a lot of emergency materials at the office in case people get stuck at work and can’t get home.

      I think your company is incredibly heartless because employees should not be charged PTO or punished for not working if the cause is not their fault, i.e. major transportation closures or very severe weather/acts of dog. If someone can work from home, great, but they shouldn’t be expected to.

  13. Emma*

    Started listening to podcasts at work a few weeks ago, since some of my tasks at my new job can be pretty tedious & have totally fallen in love with The Adventure Zone- I just finished the Balance finale yesterday. Any other good podcasts you’d recommend?

    2. merp*

      Adventure zone!! I’m making it through Balance slowly still, but it’s incredible, right?? My go-to rec because I feel like it gets less attention is Within the Wires. Starts a bit slow but it’s really worth it.

      1. Joielle*

        I second Within the Wires! I also like one of its sister podcasts, Alice Isn’t Dead, and Limetown, which is in a similar-ish vein.

        1. AnonEmu*

          I like short fiction podcasts – Pseudopod, Escape Pod, Podcastle, they’re all great ^^ I also love Drunk Safari, Jay and Miles X-Plain the X-Men, and In Defense of Plants. I haven’t listened to it yet but a lot of my friends like Solutions to Problems as well, it’s an engaging SF podcast

          2. ErgoBun*

            Jay and Miles X-Plan the X-Men has so many episodes now that you can listen with abandon for ages! Plus they’re hilarious. Seconding this recommendation!

            1. AnonEmu*

              I have their “Magneto Made Some Valid Points” shirt and I adore it. Also it’s nice to see others ship Callisto/Storm as much as I have since I was a teen XD It’s a wonderful nostalgia boost! I downloaded a ton to listen to for my last long flight and it was perfect.

        2. Sapphire*

          Within the Wires is great. I always have to tell people to stick with at least two episodes of season 1 before they decide they don’t like it.

    3. Ok_Fortune*

      In the Dark and Reply All are both amazing. Very different from The Adventure Zone but I think extremely worth listening to. Understandable if you wanted something lighter though! For light, fun podcasts I’d recommend Every Little Thing.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      Love Stuff You Missed In History Class/This Day in History Class. Lots of fun, super interesting, and there are tons of episodes!

        1. Mimi Me*

          I like Stuff you should know. My husband just listened to “Last Seen” – he loved it! It’s about the 1980’s art heist at the Isabella Gardner Museum in Boston.

    5. Stephanie*

      I’ve been enjoying:
      -The Dream (about MLMs)
      -An Arm and A Leg (about US Healthcare)
      -Call Your Girlfriend (it’s sort of freeform–two long distance female best friends chat)
      -Code Switch (about racial issues)

      1. Art3mis*

        I’m on the last episode of The Dream (stupid wireless earbuds died, recharging now). Very interesting!!

    6. E*

      I binge-listened to all of TaZ in a few weeks, then re-listened to it recently. So good, although I’m not as enchanted by the new arcs. If you like TaZ, try MBMBaM, and then if you like MBMBaM, try Hey Riddle Riddle! Those are my go-to commute ‘casts.

    7. KatieKate*

      If you’re love TAZ, check out The Film Reroll! A group of actors replay movies as a DnD session to hilarious results

    8. WomanOfMystery*

      I cried real tears at the Balance finale—<3 tres horny boys.

      Within the Max Fun universe, I really like Oh No, Ross & Carrie—their Scientology arc is great! They skeptically explore pseudoscience and cults, but in an open-hearted goofball way.

      1. Emma*

        The finale was incredible!!!! The Johann “you’re going to win” line/voiceover with the music gave me goosebumps!!!!!

    12. Ealasaid*

      I listen to way too many podcasts, but my top handful are:

      – Yo, Is This Racist? (Two POC comedians take listener calls and discuss with a guest, usually also a comedian)
      – Unscrewed (Feminism and sex, hosted by Jaclyn Friedman, author of Yes Means Yes and other great books)
      – My Favorite Murder (definitely not for everyone, but the true crime/comedy combo works for me)
      – Gaslit Nation (two experts on authoritarian regime discuss the news. Can be depressing but makes me feel like I grok what’s going on)
      – The Dollop (a comedian reads stories from history to his friend, without the friend knowing what the story will be. They riff.)
      – The Gender Rebels (a trans woman and her girlfriend talk about what it’s like outside the traditional gender norms)
      – Reply All (I know it was mentioned above, but it’s really good so I am including it in my list too :D)

      1. It's Business Time*

        I also listen to My Favorite Murder

        I usually only listen to true crime podcasts and some good ones are Casefile, Small Town Dicks, Teachers Pet & a few on the ones from Wondery.

        I do listen to the Purrrcast as well, because, well, CATS

        1. Ilikechocolate*

          I really really wanted to love my favourite murder. I am a big fan of the genre but the presenters just annoyed me. They are always giggling and it feels…so disrespectful and grated on my nerves.

          Would also like to add “Generation Why” which is my all time favourite true crime podcast.

    13. KR*

      So many. Behind the Bastards(bad people in history), My Favorite Murder (true crime), Stuff Mom Never Told You, Ask a Manager of course, Sawbones (medical history), Bear Brook (true crime), Stuff You Missed in History Class, Terrible Thanks For Asking, Slow Burn, The Dream

    14. magnusarchivist*

      The Magnus Archives (if you like horror fiction and, well, archives). Not graphic or violent but very spooky and very well produced.

    15. Jack Be Nimble*

      If you liked TAZ, you should try Friends at the Table or Follow the Leader! They’re actual play podcasts with really strong emphasis on storytelling and have queer casts! Friends at the Table has two major settings (fantasy and sci-fi, I’d start with Season 2/Counterweight if you like sci-fi and Season 3/Marielda if you like fantasy), and Follow the Leader has a bunch of very short arcs, so you can jump in anywhere!

    16. Competent Commenter*

      I’m obsessed with fiction podcasts right now. I recommend

      Very high quality writing, acting and production values:
      * Everything Is Alive (OMG, I’ve never heard anything like it, they interview inanimate objects and they’re amazing; the can of soda is just the best)
      * The Truth
      * The Control Group (whoa, really high production values and acting)
      * Homecoming (they based the show on this, it’s incredible)

      Creative and well done:
      * Sayer (very dark humor, I wasn’t sure I’d be on board but ended up loving it)
      * Life/After which is paired with The Message (they’re separate, don’t know why they do that)
      * Sandra (plot is not finished yet, we’re due another season)
      * Withing the Wires (three seasons, each very different, very experimental)

      Lower quality writing/acting but I got hooked and enjoyed them:
      * The Walk
      * We’re Alive (soooo many episodes, zombie apocalypse)

      Funny:
      * The Onion’s A Very Fatal Murder (spoof of serial-type shows)
      * Deadly Manners (Rue Paul, Kristen Bell, narrated by LeVar Burton)

      Uncategorizable:
      * and The Family Tree (bizarre, long-winded, poses as truth, British, not going to be most people’s cup of tea)

      Ooooh, I am so hooked on this genre. Thank you for asking about podcasts so I could unload a little!

      1. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

        is Family Tree much like The Beef and Dairy Network podcast? I feel like it might be kind of the same vibe based on your description…

        1. Competent Commenter*

          I’d never heard of The Beef and Dairy Network. Just listening to a couple of minutes. The longwinded earnestness is similar. The Family Tree is about a podcaster who interviews people about a one-armed man who had disappeared and who years later is found buried—but still with the arm he’d lost in a car accident, plus the body had been buried at least 8 years before he’d disappeared. The podcaster stumbles on something very big (think finding out that a whole class of people can fly or some such, don’t want to give it away) and the story just keeps getting bigger and the characters start wondering about conspiracies, claim that past episodes are disappearing from the internet, people are in danger, etc. So kind of a thrilled but very slow building and it never, never stops being long winded. I know I’m not selling it, but I was totally hooked. :)

    17. Robot With Human Hair*

      I envy that you got to experience Balance for the first time. So, so, SO good.

      So, here’s a few on-the-fun-side podcasts for you to possibly check out (non-MaxFun podcasts, since I’m sure you already know all of those): The Amelia Project, Girl In Space, Attention HellMart Shoppers, StarTripper, Kakos Industries and Wolf359 (they finished the series so it’s no longer ongoing, but still a great listen).

    18. Anonymous Engineer*

      I’m obsessed with Ear Hustle, a podcast recorded inside San Quentin State Prison. Moving and fascinating.

    19. Luisa*

      I just started listening to I Hate It But I Love It (IHIBILI), and I looooove it. Ologies is also great and through that one, I discovered This Podcast Will Kill You.

    20. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Recently started listening to The Allusionist with my 12yo. The episode on swearing had her gasping & giggling…and nope has NOT turned her into a frequent swearer. ;)

  14. Rosie The Rager*

    Confused about interview writing exercise

    Recently, I learned that I came in second for a communications and marketing position with the local chapter of an organization affectionately known as “cookie pushers.” I encountered some serious red flags during the interview process; therefore, I am far from heartbroken about the outcome.

    The unresolved issue I have is that as part of the final interview I was tasked with completing a three-part writing exercise about the upcoming cookie sale starting in January. The information I created and discussed during the interview is relevant to the 2019 sale and was not returned to me; additionally, HR neglected to assure me that all the social media posts, press releases, and marketing plan outlines I created would be left in my file unused or destroyed.

    I followed up with HR via email and asked that she explain how the information would be handled. She ignored my email for the better part of a week. I called and left a message with her assistant, and this morning she responded to me via phone. I am less than satisfied with her response and contemplating writing a very detailed complaint on Glassdoor and informing people within my professional circle about the experience.

    May I inquire as to why the HR manager didn’t initially tell me about the outcome of the interview (waited more than two weeks) before reaching out and why I was assigned a writing exercise about an upcoming event, not a past sale or hypothetical event, for my final interview?

    As an aside, the organization has more than 40 negative reviews on Glassdoor about its interview process and working environment. I consider this a bullet dodged and a lesson learned, but I still feel disrespected and would like more of an explanation for the unprofessional behavior.

    What are your thoughts, AAM community?

    1. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      This reminds me of that one letter about job candidates having to organize an event for the same evening on a shoestring budget for real-life people. It sounds like they’re using the job search in order to get free labor for something they could hire someone else to do. And when you asked them about it, they took their time to come up with a suitable lie – or they’re just deeply dysfunctional and the lack of response was due to other issues in the company taking up HR’s time, which is still a bullet dodged.

      But I’m sure that, even if I’m right, they’re never going to admit that to you or to anyone else. They’re never going to give you a satisfactory explanation for their behavior because there is no good explanation: it’s just plain wrong. And the kind of person who does deeply wrong things isn’t going to say, “Yup, I’m a terrible person, and this is why!” I’d just write them off as a lost cause (and warn people off them if you think it’s necessary), but don’t keep looking for an explanation because you’re never going to get one.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      There’s nothing here that indicates that they’re planning to use your work. Yes, it would have been better to have you write on a fake event or one in the past, but the fact that they didn’t do that doesn’t mean they’re going to use your work. You’ve made it clear you want to ensure they’re not going to to do that, but if they’re not responding to you, you can’t insist on an explanation. You can watch their materials for this event to make sure yours aren’t used, but it’s really, really, really common to do this kind of exercise and have zero intention of using people’s work, and yet still not return the materials to the candidate (in fact, they’re required by law to keep it on file and can’t destroy it for a year in case there’s ever a legal challenge to the hiring decision).

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Alison,

        Thanks for the response! I appreciate the information about how long materials must legally be kept.

    3. DouDouPaille*

      I think you are over-reacting a bit. It is SUPER common for organizations to ask for writing tests, and they normally ask you to write about a future event because if you were to write about a past event, it would be possible to “cheat” by cribbing from previously published material on the event/subject. If you are truly worried, check in a few months time to see if they did in fact use any of your test materials in an unauthorized way, and take action at that time. But until you see evidence of something fishy, assume the best, not the worst, of this employer.

      1. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

        Yeah, especially for social media stuff, where you could presumably look at their social media and see how they *actually* did it, which will shape how you do it, it makes sense to not have it be a past event. A made up one might be better, but like, they sell cookies every year, right? I don’t see asking you to mock up how you’d promote the 2019 sale as being particularly egregious.

        Sure, if they do end up using your work, you should reach out with an invoice maybe, but I agree with Alison that there’s nothing indicating that they’re planning to use your work.

  15. DCompliance*

    My department’s holiday party is today. Our VP decided to make $30 per person. A five dollar increase from last year.

      1. DCompliance*

        Yes. We have a company one that is free. But our VP likes to have a department one and you have to pay.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I guess as long as it’s not mandatory and as long as you face no professional repercussions for not attending, I guess that’s okay? Seems kind of weird still…

        1. Rey*

          If your VP wants to do karaoke, he can host his own Christmas party instead of pressuring his employees to listen to him freestyle. I would be so bitter about this.

          1. Drew*

            That VP deserves to get a very special karaoke session: “Take This Job and Shove It,” “9 to 5,” and so on.

    3. Stephanie*

      Yeah, one of the employee resource groups at my job had a $50pp holiday event. And like…I like this group of people, but that was just too much for what still was a work holiday party…

      1. Lumen*

        Oh hell no. I’m not even going to my company’s holiday party, which I do not have to pay to attend and has a free meal, open bar, and prizes. I would NEVER attend a company holiday party I had to pay for.

        1. Mimi Me*

          I don’t attend any company party that requires payment. Recently a woman “retired” here at the office and insisted on this big to-do at a nearby restaurant. $45 a person!!! I had no part of it. I kind of took some flak for it from a few co-workers after the fact, but then the woman came back to work part time so the thought went from “Mimi is a jerk for not going” to “Mimi wasn’t stupid enough to spend $45 on a retirement dinner that really wasn’t.” My personal rule is: unless the company is footing the bill, I will not be attending.

          1. Stephanie*

            Oh yeah, we had a retirement part for a division director that was like $40pp at a restaurant near her house (i.e., not near where I lived at all) on a Friday night. I was on vacation and out-of-town, so that was my convenient out for not attending. But I definitely felt some pressure to go to this party.

      2. Parenthetically*

        WHAT.

        That’s insane. At my husband’s company party there was a sign on the bar listing prices for drinks and there was almost a coup in line (turned out you had to pay for any drinks beyond the two you got for free with your drink tickets, so all was well). I cannot imagine asking people to PAY FOR EVERYTHING THEMSELVES. Aren’t holiday parties supposed to be a thank-you/celebration for the employees? Egads.

        1. anotheranon*

          As a government employee, I’ve had to pay for parties. It’s one thing if the food is decent, but $20 for bad food is a shame. Sometimes the money even went to help foot the bill for non-employees’ attendance.

      3. MatKnifeNinja*

        My friend works at a small factory. No one is making mad money. $60/person for their Xmas party, and it’s sort of an requirement to go.

    4. matcha123*

      I went to my office end-of-the-year party this week. Cost is based on rank. I and a few others paid $30. The department heads paid $70, if I remember correctly.
      All-you-can-drink with a food course. No games, a few speeches. We picked numbers as we came in to take our seats. Totally fine by me. (not saying people posting here would be fine with it!)
      Oh, and no spouses allowed/invited.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Hmmm…”all you can drink and no spouses” would make me nervous.
        Glad it went fine for you, though.

        1. matcha123*

          I am single, so I would feel very awkward if it were an event where spouses were invited. Especially since most of my coworkers are married.
          Since this is a work event, spouses would never be invited. Some people in a section in my department went on a overnight trip to the hot springs last year. No spouses. I went to a hot spring with my coworkers years ago. Completely naked with people I’d only just met a few months prior.

      2. JanetM*

        For my division holiday party, the directors partially subsidize the cost at something like $100 each, and staff pay the difference (this year it was $12 per person for staff, add $19 for a plus-one). This is for a nice buffet lunch — no alcohol — at a lovely conference center.

        No games, two short thank-you speeches, and a raffle. (I actually won something in the raffle this year!)

        Okay, while I’m on that subject — my raffle bag included a box of golf balls. I don’t play golf, so I offered them to a more senior coworker (not my manager) who I know does play. Was that okay? He didn’t seem to mind, but I did wonder about the etiquette.

        1. Drew*

          Pretty sure regifting something that you JUST received at a work event to a boss you know would enjoy it is an allowable exemption to the “no gifting up” rule.

  16. Ok_Fortune*

    As a side gig, I do some consulting with another company anywhere from zero to four times per year. If the project involves travel and can’t be done in a weekend, I take my personal vacation days to complete work for them. (They’re not a competitor and my day-job boss knows about it and is fine).

    I get told something like “we need you for a project in X city that will take two days to complete”, for example. I get paid hourly so the length of the assignment is a significant factor in deciding whether or not to take it. This year, it happened to me twice that on the day I flew out, I received a schedule for the trip that showed significantly fewer hours than I was initially told. In one case I ended up with an entire day with nothing scheduled. Hanging out in a very cold northern city in December was not why I used my personal vacation days. I think it was an honest mistake in all cases; different staff members offered me the gig than made the trip schedule, so they may have miscommunicated, and in any case several months had passed so their needs may have legitimately changed.

    I’m wondering if anyone has any advice: would it be reasonable to ask for an hours guarantee or minimum pay guarantee for such a trip? If so, how could I word it? I’m in a very niche position so this company is the only one I consult for and I’m not sure what norms are for this kind of thing. I don’t want to alienate them, either, as I value the extra income.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      In my business, I have a minimum fee. I present it to clients’ procurement people that this forces their managers who want my consulting services to carefully consider whether they really need them. This ensures that I am compensated for my time/experience, makes sure the client manager actually does need my service, and ensures that the procurement person isn’t dealing with wishy-washy client managers who change their minds all over the place.

      The few times the project has been cancelled or scaled back considerably, I’ve at least gotten my time and expenses paid for, and it doesn’t happen twice – client managers really don’t like to see an expense hit their budget that they didn’t get value from.

    2. LKW*

      What I’ve seen is a per day fee, sometimes broken up to 1/2 days if travel is local. If you need to travel to another city, then you are committing the day. You could add your per day fee includes travel to/from (if you can get there in a day) or assumes x hours of work minimum. You could also add that anything beyond y hours -say a 10 hour day -will be an additional fee.
      In short –
      x per hour for remote work
      y per 1/2 day trip (where y = x*4 hours +expenses) that can be extended by x per hour more.
      z per day trip (where z = x*8 + expenses ) that can be extended by x per hour more and if the additional hours necessitate staying an extra day, that would be either z + x(n) + y or z*2 + x(n)

      Basically, you have to start outlining that your fee is a combination of your contribution to the project – work product, and your time to simply be available and present. Your clients need to recognize that for you this is a business, and you would like to avoid wasting your time and losing money.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think that your minimums should cover your costs and your time. My husband did repair work. The bill was one hour, or almost $200 to walk through the door. So no matter what happened next the customer was getting billed almost 200 bucks. The way my husband handled it was to look around and do a few simple, yet worthwhile things to fill up the time.

      I saw this again with my dog’s vet. She does chiropractic work and she comes to the house. Her place is at least 45 minutes away. Unless the dog is having a problem we wait until she has other calls out in my area, this helps to control her costs as she makes one trip instead of several to my town. She seems to have a baseline amount that she charges me, however, she watches her time and when she has the time, she throws in other things. Last time she trimmed his nails, no extra cost. This time she checked out a problem with one of his legs, which was not what I had called her about. I feel like I am getting value for the money spent. And of course the dog gestures that he is verrry happy.

      I have a few other examples of people who offer services setting baseline amounts. It’s pretty common and people do understand that travel costs do not get cheaper if you spend LESS time doing the actual work.

      1. Ok_Fortune*

        Yes, a good way to think about it. It isn’t worth it to me to fly 4 hours for one day of work, so a minimum fee would help them decide if they want me or another consultant.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I agree, set a minimum fee – for instance, one of the firms my office uses has a 2 hour minimum, (they are local). For travel out of area, it would be reasonable for you to set a minimum daily charge, and then make clear that your travel time & costs (and any over night accommodation costs) are on top of that. You might also want to build in cancellation fees if you don’t already have them, so if they decide the day before that they don’t want you, or need you for a shorter time, that you don’t end up having booked travel etc with nothing to show for it.

      1. Ok_Fortune*

        Yes, good advice. They do reimburse for travel no matter what (as they should), but thinking back to all the times it hasn’t quite worked out the way they claim. Thanks for your imput!

  17. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    I have officially accepted a job! I’m moving 400 miles and getting a second law license in order to do so, but I have a job! The benefits are fantastic (99% of my health insurance is paid by the employer), I’ll get a lot of good experience, and the pay, while not the best ever, is still enough that I’ll be able to afford a decent place to live. [happy dance]

  18. TCO*

    I interviewed for a job this week in a small department that was newly formed after a big merger. This department hopes to influence most of the other departments in the organization, so collaboration within the system will be critical. In my interview it was tough to figure out whether this job would be exciting, creative work to form a new department, or whether I’d just be frustrated and spinning my wheels trying to bring new ideas into a huge, semi-chaotic organization focused on bigger priorities.

    If I get a next-round interview, can anyone suggest questions I could ask to parse that out more deeply? I did ask where the department hopes to be in a year, what the priorities are for this role, etc. but it was tough to assess how realistic the hiring manager’s hopes are (and I think he knew that, too).

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Ask about who is championing this initiative at the executive level – you need to know how far up the chain does support exist. Also, is there a defined budget for the role? As well as – is there a change management initiative organized to facilitate the integration of the organizations, and where does this role fit into that initiative. Has the company done anything like this before – was it successful, why /why not?

      If the answers you get don’t give you a comfort level that there is very strong executive support/commitment, etc. etc., then I would walk away.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      They may not give you the real information to truly figure that out, but I would ask about how solid the goals are, what are the exact plans to reach those goals and the deadlines along the way…something like, “You indicate that this new role will implement a TPS report system that all departments will need to comply with. What steps have already been taken to implement the system and what is the immediate next step? Are there hard deadlines for the roll out? Are there any known roadblocks to getting this implemented?”

      If their answers are vague or anything like “don’t know yet” or worse IMO “no need to worry about that,” I wouldn’t want the job myself. That usually means chaos and eventual disaster.

  19. Lena Clare*

    Job interview on Monday for a job I’d really like! I credit Alison and this blog (ok and me a little bit :)) for getting two interviews in a month and being able to turn the first one down because I recognised it wasn’t a great place for me…

    I’m a bit nervous and also excited about it. I’m using Alison’s interview tips to prepare. I have pages and pages of notes!

  20. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m following up to my last week’s question about telling an employee to get back to work. Friday was pretty hectic at work and I didn’t have a lot of downtime so couldn’t really respond as much as I wanted to, but I liked a lot of the advice given and I wanted to address a few things. As always, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond thoughtfully.

    Hopefully this answers one of the questions of what the impact is. Things that need to be done are not being done, and when the numbers show that X team is under-performing, we fall under scrutiny. Even though it’s not tax season anymore, there’s still work to do. Anyhow, she’s on a new team in another dept now, so…it’s not my place to say anything to her now. She’s a really nice person and I think will be great in whatever role she has and has an overall good attitude but I needed to do what I had to at that time.

    What really helped me was how some people suggested framing it as–it may be annoying, but what’s the impact? That clicked for me, and that’ll be something I can apply to situations going forward. I also like the advice of interrupting with a work question when the situation calls for it.

    Reason I hesitated was that a few years back, I had a peer on my team who spent a lot of time walking around, talking to people, etc. I was friends with him and not in a supervisor role..I nicely told him that even though it’s slow, he may want to cut back, esp when boss and CEO etc were around. It was more as a friendly/senior coworker advice. Managers involved said I did the right thing. Well, that went horribly wrong–so even though factors are very different, the hesitation is still there.

    With that said, I really didn’t appreciate the “you’re the common denominator” sentiment and felt it had no place in my situation. It was pretty unkind and unfair. I’m self aware and I’ve been very open & honest about all my struggles over the last few years. I’ve said a million times that I like the open office and socializing with my coworkers, so I was pretty shocked that people were sharing this sentiment that I’m unfit to work with people (!!!). I’m slowly learning to trust my own instinct and judgment on A LOT of things but it’s a process. I had decided a while back that I’m not going to let someone’s bad behavior reflect on me. Someone being disrespectful, aggressive, chauvanist, isn’t a reflection on me. Honestly, it felt as if because I’ve been so open about the bad stuff, I’m seen by ppl here as such a screw up that I’m being questioned on doing even the simplest task. That wasn’t a great feeling.

    1. What’s with Today, today*

      I made one if those comments last week. I’ve been reading this site one year and commenting for 6 months. I know nothing about your posts beyond that time and they had no bearing on my comment. I’m sorry my comment was hurtful.

    2. Boredatwork*

      I think you spend exponentially more time trying to be a good thoughtful manager, than my own mangers. They all receive professional management training, on going development towards being better managers and are expected to dedicate the vast majority of their time to actual people management.

      The fact that you’re able to care as much as you do, while fighting the inevitable burn out that has claimed so many other public accountants is a very impressive task.

      I do think your skill set would be appreciated and nurtured more in the right corporate setting, but I’ve already drunk that particular flavor of kool-aide.

    3. Alianora*

      I went back and looked at the thread. Nobody said that you’re not fit to work with people. The closest thing I could find is that someone wrote (in a very gentle tone) that you may not be the right match for your workplace. No one is the right match for every workplace. That isn’t impugning your character or calling you a screwup.

      “Honestly, it felt as if because I’ve been so open about the bad stuff, I’m seen by ppl here as such a screw up that I’m being questioned on doing even the simplest task. That wasn’t a great feeling.”

      I think you’re getting these comments not because you’re being open about the bad stuff, but because there is so much bad stuff for you to write about. I know you said you like parts of your job, but seeing your weekly posts makes it seem like you’re really unhappy at your workplace.

    4. not a therapist*

      Those comments were posted because you need therapy. You treat SAM like you own personal sounding board or journal and post multiple new posts in every open thread about how you are having a hard time with the tiniest and most basic of issues. Your posts make it obvious you have difficulty dealing with every day life. No shame in that. I have struggled with my mental health in the past and seen a therapist. I realized I wasn’t coping well and you need to realize that too. Notice how almost no one has replied or jumped in to refute the comments or your complaint? It get exhausting having to do the emotional labor of someone who won’t even help themselves. You need to face the fact that you need help. Professional help beyond what AAM, your subordinates or your family can give.

      1. Nita*

        It’s an open thread. People are allowed to vent, and in fact, many do come back week after week to do exactly that.

        Also, having secondhand experience with toxic workplaces, I can easily see how struggling to fit in at one of these does not equal needing therapy. When coworkers have the professionalism of kindergartners, it’s not easy working with them, and constant problems are to be expected…

        1. Tired anon*

          Disagree, if someone has enough stress to vent every week to strangers, maybe they should consider venting to a professional. Yes it’s an open thread but Nervous Accountant comes back every week with more issues–I don’t know how to put this more nicely, but it feels like reading someone’s diary. It feels like these should be shared with people closer to NA than strangers on the open internet. And it feels like a lot of these issues are things that should roll off someone’s back, or at least lessen with some drinks with a coworker or over a good weekend. It sounds like NA is having trouble dealing with even little things at work, and while it’s good to be conscientious, I think at this point NA should either get a new job if it’s just the job, or start talking to a therapist rather than filling that need with the internet. I say this as someone who is seeing a therapist myself.

          1. Folks38*

            Yes, and it also seems like she decides to not respond when people give her advice that she doesn’t want to hear, and/or when people gently disagree with her interpretation of an event. Like here – she’s not responding to any of these responses, even though people are being polite and, honestly, caring enough about her to respond to her post.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I can sympathize with what you’re going through. I think you need a lot of validation and need to shoot your stuff off an audience. There are internet groups that are really great and for the most part, if it’s condensed and not every thing every time, the open threads are welcoming to the kind of things you’ll often post.

      I think it’s a bit much to say you need therapy but you may need another outlet for the small stuff.

      Your place of business seems like it’s a big turnstyle of folks, since there’s always so many new people. Which is probably part of your issue. You have to adjust to everyone as they come and then they go, new people come and it’s all over again! That’s typical with high turnover. It does make me wonder if you are in the wrong firm, more than the wrong career itself. If you had stability and familiarity, it would stop your constant chomping at the bit about every newb.

    6. Hope is hopeful*

      Nobody actually said or meant you are unfit to work with people last week.
      If you took it that way, that’s sort of the exact reason why people are responding to you the way they are.

      I know when it’s you/ your thoughts you are posting it can get v personal but the people who commented last week and this week actually said it nicely – it wasn’t blunt or rude and they explained the contents of their comment. It wasn’t meant to be offensive in any way but constructrive.

    7. Hard Candy*

      This is a gross mischaracterisation of the response and advice you received last week. As you are so self aware, I’m sure you can tell that you are reacting defensively and inappropriately to comments that were made in good faith. People were trying to help you and offered thoughtful, kind and constructive advice. If what you really want is handholding and praise, just say so next time you post one of your long “questions”. If you don’t want advice but you to vent/whine, fine. Don’t phrase it as a request for advice then complain when people give you advice, though. That’s not acting in good faith.

      And if you feel that your posts here have made people see you as a screw up, maybe you should think about why you feel that way.

  21. Erin*

    Writers and those in marketing: What is your process for sending articles to clients after they’re finished?

    Specifically:

    -Do you have them approve the articles before publishing/promoting?
    -Do you allow for edits or corrections? How far do you let that go before they completely take over/rewrite the article?
    -How do you handle it if they want a complete overhaul of the article, and/or there was a miscommunication about what the article was about?

    Thank you!

    1. Erin*

      Well, crap. I was really hoping to hear from people on this one. Anyone?? I’ll answer your questions!

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m not a writer but I’m adjacent to marketing as a graphic designer, so I would say in general for any creative field that approval of a proof (in writing) before publishing/going live is always a must. I always allow for revisions and even overhauls — they’re the client they get to make decisions I don’t always agree with. The writers I work with have, on a rare occasion, asked to have their byline removed if the client has revised the article beyond what the writer intended. If you are freelance, you can work in how many revisions that are included in your basic fees and any beyond that are charged extra. You can even work out “ownership” vs “reproduction rights” in some cases that would give you more control over your final product, but works for hire generally belong to the client and not the creative person.

    3. Fact & Fiction*

      Hi! I’m a published fiction author but I also work full-time as an in-house marketing copywriter. My clients are all internal, and how much I take their feedback into consideration during edits depends on the specific collateral I’m producing. Some are more under my colleague’s purview, so I implement pretty much all of their feedback until we’re all satisfied with the work. This generally involves me working up a first draft, sending it out for review, implementing their comments in a second draft, sending it back out for review, and at that point it’s most often approved. Sometimes there will be multiple rounds of edits, but those later rounds are very minimal.

      There are a few projects that fall more specifically under my department’s control and purview. I still send things out for subject matter experts to review, for other marketing colleagues to review, and for our legal department to review, but I have more leeway then in how I implement the feedback provided that it’s still factually correct per the SMEs and passes legal review. Those projects vary in how many rounds of edits they go through, but it’s usually no more than 3-4. Every once in awhile I get a project that flies through with few edits and sometimes i get a bear that requires 7-8 rounds of edits.

      Whether the edits are light or heavy, I never feel like they’ve completely taken over or rewritten the article. There are a few projects where someone else actually HAS written the article, and I’m just polishing it up to meet our brand standards/style guide, but those are more the exception than the rule. I’ve not yet run into anyone wanting a complete overhaul of the article, at least not here.

      I’m trying to think back to past positions and projects, and there were sometimes instances where editors above me basically wanted such heavy revising that it felt like an entire rewrite, but I pretty much had no choice but to grin and bear it. I don’t think I ever had an clients (when I was freelancing) who wanted so many edits that it felt like an entirely new article.

      Hope some of this helps!

    4. Youth*

      I write in-house articles for my company, so I don’t have a ton of experience with working with clients on articles, but I do work with clients on writing other items.

      My suggestions:
      -Yes, you probably want them to approve before publishing.
      -Yes, allow for edits and revisions.
      -Set a clear number of revision rounds beforehand so that you don’t end up doing endless hours of revisions, thus reducing the $/hr value of your payment (assuming you’re paid in a lump sum).
      -If the requested edits and revisions are vague, send it back to them and ask for clear feedback with examples.
      -If the client completely rewrites the article…I have mixed feelings about this. Sometimes the client doesn’t actually want you to write something for them. They secretly want to write it themselves, so they’re just going to rewrite it no matter how good it is. If it’s being published under their name, then just accept their edits and tidy it up. (Unless the changes are egregiously terrible, in which case you can take the spirit of their feedback and come up with a different solution to their concerns–sometimes that works. If that doesn’t work, you can say, “I can do X, but I strongly recommend not doing that because of Y and Z best practices in writing and marketing.) If it’s being published under your name or if you really need this work for your portfolio, again, take the spirit of the feedback and propose a different solution.

    5. Celia Bowen*

      I didn’t answer as the question seemed strange – you’re not there to write your own writing but to meet a brief. They can do what they like with it including rewriting.

    6. Erin*

      I’m late on getting back to y’all but just wanted to say thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me! I really appreciate these thought out responses.

    7. Meteor*

      Hi Erin! I’m on the client side. Typically we provide a clear brief to our writers/creatives when kicking them off. So if the work comes to us for approval and doesn’t align with the messaging/etc in the brief, then we discuss & send them back to work on it again. If the work comes back and still is not what we’re looking for, then I get more prescriptive, and may actually re-write a few lines explicitly, in order to make sure we get what we need and hit our deadlines.

      I think it’s key to align up-front on the objectives, key message(s), and any watch-outs or things to avoid. If you have a good brief (or kick-off email, or whatever), then you’re all going to feel better about the creative end result.

      Also, regarding your phrasing “How far do you let that go…”: From the client’s perspective, we are paying for the work, and need it to align to our objectives. There are various business reasons why marketing can’t always be artistically perfect – for example, sometimes a salesy message is actually going to work on a certain consumer better than an artsy, aesthetically appealing ad. Ideally it’s best to do a mix of both, but the business objectives have to win out.

  22. Dreamer*

    I am in a Niche field and when petitioning for a WFH day (only one every 2 weeks and its encouraged in our company) during a team meeting. The team put together a full presentation, and subsequently told verbatim ” None of you are irreplaceable” Then shushed me and said “and you Dreamer are not getting any more money” I have only been with the company 6 months (this manager 6 weeks) I never asked for a raise, just more of a work life balance. I just dont know what to do next, my feelings are really hurt and I am tired of working 60-70 hour weeks. Not sure if I need advice or just to vent.

    1. Lumen*

      That’s terrible – even if the answer is ‘no’, threatening people’s jobs for raising a suggestion and then insulting you to your face, especially when you’re still quite new to the company and even newer to this manager? Toxicity Alert. This is not normal and not okay.

      1. Dreamer*

        Thank you Lumen. I really needed to hear that, I was trying to stick it out because if I dont stay 2 yrs I will owe relocation back but I dont think I can do it

        1. Lumen*

          Think of this way: imagine all the horrible messages about yourself, your work, and how you should be treated at work that 2 years will give you time to fully absorb and internalize. It will not help your health or career to stick it out and let them warp your ideas of what is okay.

          I will put in this caveat though: do what you can to try and address the problem where you’re at. I don’t have a lot of hope for this, given what you described, but I’m also not there and don’t have all the info. If there’s HR or anyone else to talk to about the situation, at least try. In a normal/healthy workplace, HR or upper management will hear “my boss told me I’m replaceable because I asked to do something that you encourage us to do” and shut that crap down while protecting you from retaliation. If that’s not a reasonable expectation where you’re at, then it’s not a good place to stay.

        2. Fact & Fiction*

          I recommend trying to get enough of a pay raise from your next job to cover the relocation fees (if possible), and start saving up now so you can afford to pay those relocation fees back when you do find a new job. Don’t let yourself feel completely trapped if you’re in a toxic situation. It doesn’t hurt to start looking now; it’ll allow you to be picky with potential jobs and feel a sense of control/hope that you’re doing something to address the situation. And I do think your feelings are perfectly valid.

    2. Binky*

      That sucks. Can you see if you can move internally in the company (and away from this new manager who seems abrasive and ignores perks your company supports)?

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Your manager sucks. I vote to start job searching again ASAP, it sounds like a no-growth, tense environment. If you’ve been there just half a year, do you still have contacts from previous companies you applied to?

      1. Dreamer*

        Thats a really good idea! There are a few companies I spoke/interviewed with 2 years ago. I was denied for not being technical but I have those skills now. Do you think that is too late to follow up?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      People who do not know how to lead people use this technique of putting down their subordinates.

      Of course, your feelings are hurt, the comment was intended to be hurtful. If you think crap about yourself then you won’t leave the company and you will do everything you are told to do.

      I worked for a boss who sincerely believed that people in our department were a dime a dozen. One leaves just plug a new person in. The guy did not realize it took at least a year to learn the job. (The work changed with the seasons, literally, so until you went through an entire year there was no way to know everything we were doing.) We were frequently informed that we could be replaced. Finally, I said, “Go ahead replace me.” This was very funny to me, as I was told I did the work of three people.

      So this boss has informed you that he is a crappy leader with NO management skills. He gave you a heads up.

      I think he was talking to all of you when he said that and not just you? Do you have a more senior coworker who you trust? Can you talk to them about next steps? In my mind it’s a matter of figuring out who you can report this to who will actually listen and take heart.

      1. Dreamer*

        I was named personally when she said it (and physically pointed at) Thank you so much for the comment. This really made me feel better.

    5. None the Wiser*

      Relocation fees are usually prorated over the contract period, that is, if you stay in the job for a year you would owe half the fee. Figure out what your break point is and time your job search so if you receive an offer, you can afford to pay back the remaining fee. Your new employer may also be willing to cover that expense.

  23. Cherry*

    Not sure if this is a work thread or not, so I may repost tomorrow but I came across something a little while back.. instead of saying for example, “Sorry for being late” say “Thank you for waiting for me”… basically turning a negative in to a positive I guess.

    Has anyone used this technique at work? What were the results? I’d like to learn more about this, for both work and non work situations.

    1. merp*

      I’ve done this more with situations where I felt confused and asked for help on something. Basically, going from “sorry, I can’t remember/am confused on this/etc” to just asking and following up with “thanks for your help!”

      Seems to be a generally good thing in my experience, because some of those kind of apologies weren’t necessary to begin with. Lateness like your example might be different though, idk.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think one is preferable to other. I think it really depends on the situation. You’re consistently 15-20 minutes late for a weekly meeting? Coming in every time and thanking people for waiting for you seems presumptuous and kind of obnoxious. It’s also weird if they didn’t actually wait for you and just started without you. Meeting up with a co-worker for lunch, and you’re late 5 minutes one time, “Sorry for being late” seems overly apologetic.

      Just say whatever makes sense. If you’re really sorry, apologize. If people waited for you, and you appreciate the wait, thank them for waiting for you.

    4. WomanOfMystery*

      I definitely started doing this! It’s great! You should, too! I feel very strongly about this. I have a tendency to always worry and feel guilty, so it was helpful to reframe it in a way that doesn’t feel so….power dynamic-y? It changes the situation to make it feel more mutually beneficial (You waited for me, which I genuinely appreciate and you get to bask in the warm glow of my appreciation) and makes people think you’re more competent and powerful.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you showed up late and told me “thanks for waiting,” I’d be annoyed. Because it’s not something I did for you, it’s something you did to me. If you called and said “I’m going to be 30 minutes late, would you rather reschedule?” and I said I’d wait for you, THEN you can thank me. But if you basically make the decision for me, don’t thank me for it.

      2. WomanOfMystery*

        I think, at least the way I use thanks-not-apology, is it replaces excessive apologies. “I’m sorry I’m late—thank you for waiting!” instead of my first impulse, “I’m so sorry! I can’t believe how late I was, I’m so, so sorry.” At work, it’s a compliment to the person helping me, rather than tearing myself down. If I’m at fault, I’ll apologize, but if I just have a sneaking guilty feeling, I’ll express gratitude for their help,

          1. WomanOfMystery*

            A better example might be, when I ask my boss clarifying questions and my first instinct is, “I’m sorry to bother you,” but what I actually say is, “Thanks for taking the time to really go through this with me.”

            I think thanks-not-apology is a good idea in the case of guilt complex or anxiety brain, as it helps combat the “Everyone hates me because I am a burden” and helps to reframe it as “Humans help each other—I get to both give and receive help.” It’s less about apologizing when you’ve done something wrong (which is important!) and more about not apologizing because you feel like you are a burden.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      “Thank you for waiting for me” is rubbing me the wrong way. It is missing the necessary apology and in the work setting where the person might not have had much choice it strikes me as . . . entitled. It could also come across snarky if people had to, for example, start the meeting with out you. I could see it in a social setting AFTER the necessary apology.

    7. CheeryO*

      I think that only works if you’re much more senior than the person who you’re meeting with, or if you’re only a couple minutes late. Otherwise, it’s pretty rude to not offer an actual apology.

      I try to avoid minimizing language in other situations, like other people have mentioned. “Just,” “I think,” “I believe,” the dreaded, “This might be a stupid question, but…” etc.

      1. Ok_Go_West*

        I recently stopped going to see a massage therapist because she arrived late and did not apologize–she just stated, “I missed my bus.” (I was waiting in the rain outside her locked office.) When you’ve done something impolite, an apology is warranted.

    8. Parenthetically*

      I think there’s a place for using gratitude words rather than apologies, and if you’re the type to over-apologize, I think it’s wise to interrogate your frequent apologies — are you apologizing for asking people to do things that are part of their jobs? Are you apologizing for asking for things you need or would benefit from? Are you apologizing when you’re not inconveniencing, hindering, or bothering anyone? Replace THOSE apologies with “thanks for giving me some time in your schedule” or “I appreciate your help with this” and the like.

      But when you ARE inconveniencing someone, like pulling them out of a meeting or turning up late, you SHOULD absolutely apologize, and previous commenters are absolutely right in noting that thanking someone for waiting instead of apologizing for your lateness seems presumptuous. I like Rusty’s distinction between “something I did for you” vs. “something you did to me.” Thank someone for the former, apologize for the latter.

    9. whistle*

      I’m all in favor of cutting out unnecessary apologies, but in this specific case (you were late and the person had to wait), an apology is warranted. I’m with some of the other commenters that, if I were on the receiving end of this, it would rub me the wrong way. “I’m sorry I was late but thank you for waiting” is great however.
      There are cases, like the one mentioned by Micormanagered, where a sorry is unnecessary and can be a burden to the person receiving it. I think the trick is to know which is which. Being late merits an apology, asking someone a legitimate question (which necessitates interrupting them) does not.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      If you are apologizing for the same thing such as lateness repeatedly, then work on the lateness thing. I will accept anyone’s apology and move on, but if they keep doing it over and over the apology is empty and in my mind it kind of becomes a minus.

      In more complex mix-ups, there are times where I can loop the other person in, “What do I do so I do not make this error again? I don’t want to hand you another problem like this one.” This has been wonderful because I have learned so much. And people do notice if you don’t make the same error twice. They are more willing to explain and put up with my one time mess-ups.

      I guess what I am saying is that instead of focusing on going from a negative to a positive, I prefer to focus on prevention. “Okay, this happened once, what will I do to prevent from happening again?” Sometimes I can figure out a course of action on my own, but other times I am a duck out of water and I have to ask the person who I have impacted.

      And sometimes we just have to say we are sorry. I messed up earlier this week. I was in a meeting and my new cohort said X is a problem. I reacted with some surprise. And cohort said she had already mentioned that. We talked for a minute and I landed on, “I am sorry I did not hear you the first time.” I could see her face relax upon hearing my apology. There are times where a straight-up apology is necessary. And this is the danger in trying to avoid apologies. It’s really easy to misjudge the size of our misstep.

      Going back to the lateness example, if a person is repeatedly late and repeatedly thanks me for waiting for them… uh… I am not really impressed with that. I vote for say sorry and SHOW sorry.

    12. Alianora*

      So yeah, I don’t use this technique in the example you used (for reasons that have been thoroughly hashed out already) but I do use it more broadly in situations where I really shouldn’t be apologizing. It’s hard to tell how effective it is on others. I like it because it makes me feel like a warmer person — it kind of goes hand in hand with showing appreciation for things others do, and it’s made me more comfortable giving spontaneous compliments.

  24. 42*

    Does your company do Performance Differentiation for yearly reviews? What do you think of it?

    Mine does, and I never really thought twice about it until I read a few articles recently saying it’s falling out of favor. Wondering what your thoughts are. Thanks!

  25. BusinessCat*

    Hi all, I posted a while ago about job searching for a staff position at a university. Exciting news, I now have one offer in hand and another expected. Now, I’m wondering how people choose between positions. Some context: currently employed in a lucrative position in an industry I don’t love. New offer: slightly less salary (4% less) for much better benefits and much better culture at a university I’m really excited about; would mean being the main resource in my technical field for a smaller division at the university and have lots of opportunity to use skills I already have to provide thought leadership to the division. Expected offer: with a contact I’ve been networking with who I would love to work for because I could learn from their cutting edge technical expertise (has written books and regularly presents at conferences); risk being that I haven’t received the offer, but the contact is main decision maker and has done everything but guarantee I will get it, salary will be close, but potentially could be a little lower. The plan for the expected offer would be to come in as a senior resource, mentor / help manage day to day operations of other associates with the leader planning to make it into a manager position within 2 years. So, do I take the position I’m already excited about, but may have less long term growth opportunities or keep treading water and hope for the position that I’m (just so) slightly more excited about? I think I know my answer as a generally risk averse person, but interested in other perspectives.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I had a similar situation where I was between an offer and an expected offer. I went with the first offer for a few reasons: I was sick of my toxic office, I was really excited about the role/university, and I felt I could make a huge difference. Expected offer (which turned into panicked offer when I withdrew) was higher-ed adjacent but much higher salary. That job was going to be much more sales-heavy than student-heavy, and I’m not a sales person in the least, so Offer 1 was my choice and I’m really happy with it!

      I made a pros/cons list with info like benefits, salary, distance, growth opportunities, personal reasons. That helped me see that despite Offer 2’s higher salary, there were more cons than in Offer 1. If you can ask Offer 2 to move up the decision process since you do have an offer on the table, that would probably be your best bet.

      1. BusinessCat*

        Thank you for the reply! I’ve notified my contact at the expected offer, but the process has too much further to go, so while they are doing what they can (guaranteeing the mentorship/ day to day management aspect and salary), they won’t be able to offer to me before I need to tell the other job. I think the reality is that I would really enjoy both jobs, which is why its such a tough decision, but in that event, the difference between one in hand at a guaranteed rate and therefore getting to leave my current less than enjoyable job sooner might make the difference.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          Also I wasn’t sure about growth opportunities when I took Offer 1, but now it looks like it could totally happen down the line. Plus, once you’re in a university, it’s way easier to move to another university than it is coming in from the outside.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      It sounds like you can’t really lose…

      Some of it depends on just how risk-averse you are. You now know that you can get an offer from a desirable place, at least, so if you take the risk and the second job falls through, you have a good chance of getting a third. The question is whether you can wait out your current situation if you have to go looking for that third.

  26. grumpypants*

    I’m really frustrated right now. I’ve been a long-term temp and my job was just converted to a permanent position, with an increase to my hourly rate. Good news, right? But I’m also being switched from 40 hrs/wk to 30 hrs/wk, so it’s very much a case of “Congratulations! It’s a paycut!”

    The new position takes effect on January 2, so I don’t even get the paid holidays while the office is closed. I haven’t had any paid vacation or sick days in 18 months. I’m so tired.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Condolences :( Are you now eligible for benefits? My pay as a salaried employee isn’t great until you take those into account. Especially compared to our contractors I seem to make a pittance. But it works out on the back end.

      1. grumpypants*

        Yep, I’m now eligible for benefits. But with my lower income, I can’t afford the monthly payment for the employer-provided health insurance I’m now eligible for.

        1. Anna Held*

          At least you’ll get some time off now. Use that extra day off to job hunt!

          This sounds like a company that will wonder what happened when you’re gone. And they were so nice to hire you on permanently, and give you a raise…..

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            I wonder if there’s any chance, if you brought this to your new supervisor and laid it out for them, this would turn out to be a misunderstanding and they’d agree to reconsider?

            1. grumpypants*

              I did the math with my supervisor. They acknowledge my situation, but are inclined to minimize its impact on me. Of the 40 hrs/wk I’m currently doing, 10 hours are devoted to a different project than the rest, so they see it as going from 30 hrs/wk at $X to 30 hrs/wk at $X+0.75. But the fact is that I’m losing those 10 hours and I CANNOT afford this.

              Plus the fact that my “start” date is right after four holidays that are paid for all current permanent staff, and I’m beyond BEC with this job right now.

              1. Sloan Kittering*

                Ugh, well as others have said, if you have demonstrated that they’ve cut your pay, and they didn’t address that, they can’t be that surprised that you started job searching and left :(

                1. valentine*

                  You don’t have to accept and it may be worth it to point out you’re unlikely to find a 10-hour job that works with the schedule.

              2. Observer*

                Start job hunting. You have a perfect explanation here – your boss liked your work so much they they switched you to permanent at a higher rate. (That show how awesome you are.) But they also took you off a project that can be done by someone lower skilled, so that wound up as a net pay cut. Any halfway reasonable employer will understand why you would leave a job over a pay cut.

  27. HR Lady*

    So, a couple of weeks ago I talked about the upcoming fear I had about a Christmas party that would be full of booze but without the usual control factors of a sit-down meal and partners being invited. Amazingly, I had to handle absolutely no disciplinary or grievance matters on Monday morning. By Tuesday, I was weirdly relieved that we’d got over things and the only major complaints was that there hadn’t been enough food. It actually was a super fun party, I danced for several hours and amazed myself at having a good time. By Wednesday morning I was breathing the sigh of relief of a woman who did not have to run several investigations.

    BUT THEN.

    I got a call yesterday telling me about a mid-week party in one of the smaller hub offices that I also have to look after. (The party above was the one for our HQ.) The smaller party was in a hotel, where all staff had a hotel room for the night in return for the first part of the day being training, followed by the party itself. One of our interns (and these are ‘do an internship unless there’s a problem you’ll get a job once you finish your degree’ arrangements, so we do treat them as employees in terms of legal matters) didn’t turn up for dinner and one of the admin staff went to find him. He was in his hotel room, “covered in cocaine” and completely unaware of his surroundings. Health-wise he is apparently fine but since said party also involved some of our clients attending I am now running a major incident investigation, travelling to said hub office on Monday morning for witness statements and have had to rope in senior directors for risk management. I thought I’d just be dealing with catfights between the PAs that hate each other/drunken snogging/getting the interns taxis home.

    MERRY CHRISTMAS.

      1. HR Lady*

        YOU WIN and I am using that pun several times during the despairing internal meetings we’re having about this incident.

      4. Marthooh*

        Damn, Lucky, you beat me to it!

        But at least I can still congratulate HR Lady for Working in a Winter Wonderland.

      1. HR Lady*

        Well, officially speaking we can’t take formal action until we’ve completed the report but I don’t think I need a crystal ball to say his odds aren’t looking good…

    4. Parenthetically*

      Ye gods, this was… not the update I was expecting.

      So sorry for the actual HR nightmare you’re going to be dealing with. Bah humbug.

    6. valentine*

      I hope he’s okay and you’re allowing for the possibility of foul play/he is either not, or not entirely, responsible.

  28. Micromanagered*

    There was a weird/sour smell in my cubicle this morning. I thought maybe it was something in my trash, so I emptied it, but I still smelled it and wasn’t sure where it was coming from. I had a small thing of Bath & Body Works spritzy stuff in my purse, so I gave it a little spritz in the air to try to mask the smell. A few minutes later, I got an email from someone 3 cubes down which said “I’m so sorry but could you not spray that again? It’s making me kinda sick.” I responded immediately, said of course!, apologized, and thanked her for telling me. She replied and thanked me for saying that–she was nervous about saying anything because she thought I might be angry with her.

    Anyway, just an example of a how an uncomfortable conversation like we read about in many AAM letters can turn out really well! Happy Friday!

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      That’s great! I teach middle school and I wish I could graciously put a moratorium on the cocktail of body sprays I inhale all day long (and I am singling out Axe for special focus, as it is the grossest.) So glad it worked out!

      1. Micromanagered*

        LOL I try not to overdo it spraying it on myself, but I think spraying it in the air (mixed with the funky smell, which she said she could also smell) was grossing her out.

      2. Middle School Teacher*

        Hahaha I do! I teach grade 7 health and my boys are shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when I tell them that covering themselves with Axe will not make girls jump them like in tv commercials :D

  29. Desk Jockey's Last Day*

    Last day at my temporary gig. The gig was supposed to run to the end of the year, but they’re laying me off a couple of weeks early. Not soon enough! I guess I’ll miss the last couple of paychecks but I won’t miss the cranky cubicle neighbor who obviously was not happy I was here.

    Also Boss Man is letting out go early but paying me for the whole day. Who’s up for a mid-afternoon cocktail?

    1. Desk Jockey's Last Day*

      * letting me go early

      Also, a question: What have you written for your e-mail auto-responder when it’s not, “I’m on vacay, please contact Co-Worker A for X, or Co-Worker B for Y,” but it’s actually, “So long, suckers, I’m outta here for good”?

      1. Snubble*

        “Thank you for your email. I am no longer employed at Angry Bees, Inc. Please direct all enquiries to Peter or Susan.”

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        You may not have to worry so much about leaving an out of office message on the email at work. If the company you are working for is anything like my oldjob, they will have your email account there de-activated by 12am tomorrow.

        1. Desk Jockey's Last Day*

          Could be! My exit paperwork includes “turn on yer auto-respond” on the checklist, though, so I might as well set it up.

        2. only acting normal*

          Our IT occasionally gets over-eager and deletes someone’s email account a day or two before they leave… causes all the headaches you might imagine.

  30. mr. brightside*

    Pity me. A bunch of expletive deleted went down at work this week and I have been one two calls so far today with people shouting. Everyone on the call agrees with their position, but these two people, who are generally shouty, have gone all out.

    I just want to tell them to stop yelling at me because I agree with them, but we might disagree on the definition of shouting. They’ll probably say they’ll just expressing their opinions forcefully. I’d point out the very raised volume and aggressive tone of voice.

    I just came out to work today and honestly I’m feeling so attacked right now.

    1. Adlib*

      When I used to answer phones at a previous job and get angry callers, I’d let them vent for a moment, and then tell them I couldn’t help them until they calmed down or stopped yelling. That generally helped, and I could express empathy for their (what was usually) frustration. You might try a variation of that since you say that you generally agree with them.

      No one should yell at work in any setting so they need a reminder that even if they aren’t yelling “at” you, it doesn’t mean that it’s not stressing you out.

    2. Dasein9*

      Oh, you look a little peaked. Maybe you have an upset stomach. End the calls/meetings and hide out somewhere mildly unpleasant but sacrosanct for a while. (Mute your phone and play a game or something.) Let their shouty feelings have time to peter out and thank them for being so patient with you when you call back/see them again.

      1. mr. brightside*

        Unfortunately, those shouty feelings have been going on for months. We’ll all be glad when this project ends.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I sympathize… my Friday of re-work was partly due to a project shared between HQ and a recent acquisition. The newly acquired senior product manager made some logical but incorrect assumptions …and had a 2-week vacation planned just when product went to regulatory agency for listing. The developing engineer at HQ briefly took over submission procedures and made some judgement calls on the fly. Some of what contradicted unwritten assumptions of PM. So, well, let’s just say that they disagreed with each others’ decisions. For months.
          It means frequent contradictory instructions on how to assemble my teapot handles!

  31. Snoozing Loser*

    I wrote last week in the open thread about my unpaid suspension that was a consequence of falling asleep at work – when the exhaustion had been a result of the work itself (being required to work 100+ hours, including an all-nighter, during a 6-day crunch period). I wanted to update everyone as I received so many positive messages of support in response to my post (so grateful!!!) – unfortunately, the news is not good. The VP who could have overridden the suspension returned to work (from bereavement leave) on the same day I returned from suspension (Monday) and my boss/grandboss arranged for all of us to meet with him on Tuesday. We all requested that ideally I would have my performance file expunged and my pay reinstated from the suspension period, or at a minimum, that I should be allowed to use my PTO for the week off instead of it being unpaid. However, the VP got extremely angry upon hearing about my unauthorized nap, said the extended working hours were no excuse, and fired me on the spot. I was perp-walked out after getting to grab only my handbag, was not given any severance, and was told I had better not even think about filing for unemployment because I was fired for cause. My boss and grandboss were beside themselves, and they, and several other members of our department, have reached out to offer support and express sympathy. However, with both the VP and HR against me, there is really nothing that can be done. I am now facing the holidays with sudden unemployment, no severance, my benefits have also been terminated, and I will not even be paid for my accrued PTO (it’s not legally required in my area, although the company usually pays out upon an employee’s departure – just not when someone is fired for cause). I tried to at least ask that I be given a neutral reference (employment verification only) and that the record reflect a layoff rather than firing for cause, but they refused. I am just so bewildered because I have been rated as a top performer in my past several reviews, have never had any disciplinary issues at all, really have never complained about anything, have never clashed with anyone at the company…I cannot think of any reason why anyone would want me gone. This makes about as much sense as, say, firing me because I got violently ill after eating tainted food at a company event. I know I am probably better off moving on but definitely did not want it to happen this way, and am extremely stressed about both finances and future job prospects. If anyone has any words of encouragement, or could help me frame what I could say when I am applying/interviewing for new jobs (after a firing, I know it’s important to be contrite and discuss what I’ve learned from the experience) that would be incredibly helpful.

    1. Tara S.*

      I’m so so sorry! That is a complete overreaction on their part! Could you ask your boss/grandboss for references? If you give their contact info, it’s likely they will be contacted, not HR.

      1. Snoozing Loser*

        Both boss and grandboss told me they were so sorry, but they were told they would be fired if they provided references instead of referring any reference inquiries to HR. And I was told that HR would verify my employment dates and salary but they also WOULD have to tell anyone making inquiries I was fired for cause and the reason. But maybe that’s not so bad, especially if I am forthright in interviews about the situation? I am just struggling with what language to use, that won’t make it sound as if I’m minimizing/hiding something. In the meantime…I do have a coworker (not my official boss, but senior to me who led some of my projects) who left a few months ago and is thus not subject to the same rules. Hopefully she will be willing to provide a reference and speak to both my character and the company culture.

        1. CatCat*

          When the dust settles a bit for you and you are employed elsewhere and if you feel inclined to warn others about this beehive, you could write about your experience on Glassdoor. Be sure to include “Both boss and grandboss told me they were so sorry, but they were told they would be fired if they provided references instead of referring any reference inquiries to HR. And I was told that HR would verify my employment dates and salary but they also WOULD have to tell anyone making inquiries I was fired for cause and the reason.”

          This is just nuts. The company deserve to lose talent over this.

        2. Lily Rowan*

          I think that’s right — if you describe this situation in an interview (pulled an all-nighter, took a nap), no one rational would hold it against you.

        3. Observer*

          Actually, if they tell the truth about why you were fired, it won’t do you any damage, at least not with reasonable employers. “Fell asleep on the job after several weeks of 60-100 work weeks” is not going to make you look bad, you know.

          I’d be more worried about them actually lieing about you.

    3. mr. brightside*

      However, the VP got extremely angry upon hearing about my unauthorized nap, said the extended working hours were no excuse, and fired me on the spot

      Holy shit, I’m so sorry. I was worried about you and hoping for the best, but this is horrible. I’m so sorry it happened.

      If it helps, try framing this in your mind as something that is not on you. You controlled your own actions, they controlled theirs. Yes, you fell asleep at work. This was your action. It was also after being overworked to the bone. That was their action. Then they chose to suspend you. Then they chose to escalate it even further and fire you. Wasn’t the policy saying for suspension? But the VP decided to fire. That’s on the VP and on HR. That is not something you control. That is something they decided to do to you.

      You have been screwed over and it sucks, a lot. File for COBRA if possible to keep your benefits, file for unemployment, accept that this is gonna be a place that’s gonna hurt in your mind for a while.

      As for what to say, I’d go with “because of the extensive overtime of 18 hours a day, I fell asleep on the job, and was fired because of it. I understand what I did wrong and want to move forward for it. I’m interested in this position because of X, Y, and Z”. Also this could lead into a discussion of what kind of overtime or work/life balance the new place has, so you can see what you’d be getting into.

      And honestly, unless you’re a security guard or something, this sounds like major major major overkill for falling asleep on the job.

      1. Barb*

        I disagree that it was wrong to fall asleep. That’s a normal biological function that OP wasn’t allowed to take care of because of work. All blame hours to work. I would just describe it as a natural physiological consequence.

      2. Snoozing Loser*

        (Reposting this as I accidentally posted way down below in the main open thread)

        Yes, the basic policy requires a one-week suspension for falling asleep on the job. Of course, under at-will employment (at least in my understanding) more severe consequences can be imposed for just about any reason that isn’t discriminatory.

        I do like the idea of using the issue to explore any potential employer’s thoughts on reasonable working hours, what is expected of employees (and what is offered in terms of rest periods or other support) when highly extended hours are required, etc. I would also like to find out (at least if I get pretty far into an interview process) how the company handles employee mistakes, to avoid this sort of one-strike-and-you’re-out situation if at all possible. I would definitely want to know those things coming in the door for any future jobs.

    4. anon24*

      I’d file for unemployment anyway and make them go to court and explain themselves.

      I’m so sorry! Best wishes for a better job!

      2. Myrin*

        I was just thinking that – I’m not from the US but from what I’ve read on here over the years, it rarely seems to be a bad idea to file for unemployment anyway.

      5. LCL*

        Yes. File for unemployment. It sounds possible your firing violated their own policies-you said the penalty for nodding off is a standard week’s suspension, and VP unilaterally changed it to a firing. To help with your strategy, try to have the answers in mind to some questions. I realize you might not be able to answer them, and might not have access to anyone who could.
        1. Is this typical of how the VP handles personnel issues?
        2. If it is not typical, is it possible the VP is temporarily deranged/rendered unstable/irrational by his grief?
        3. Is it possible he is taking prescribed drugs to cope, and they aren’t working well for him?
        4. Is this kind of over the top consequences-you questioned an unduly harsh treatment so were punished harder-the way your company usually operates?
        5. Is there a reason VP or someone else was out to get you?

        Again, file for unemployment. This may be worth talking to a lawyer about. I’m this close to trashing VP, but there are too many unknowns now. His bad behavior is causing effects that are the same as if he was malicious. Is he?

        1. Snoozing Loser*

          This is actually very far out of character from what I have previously seen of the VP. I mean, I don’t know him extremely well given that he is three levels above the position I held, but from everything I had seen before he conducted himself in a kind, thoughtful and fair manner. However, he was out on bereavement leave because one of his children had died by suicide. I do think he was extremely affected by grief (how could one not be), probably really did not want to deal with what seemed like a petty personnel issue in the scheme of things, and ended up taking his emotions out on me. I really do not blame him and am still much more upset with HR for causing this situation against my old boss and grandboss’s wishes. I just think there was a very unfortunate convergence of circumstances that ended up costing me my job in a way that came across as incredibly cruel (and really not business-minded either – I am not saying I am irreplaceable, but I had been one of the best workers in the division for the past several years per the feedback I received consistently). I don’t think he is evil, just human, and (if he remembers anything about it) will likely feel bad once he emerges from the fog of grief. But for now I think all I can do is what others have suggested – file for unemployment, try to shore up any references possible under the circumstances, and be thoughtful about how I frame the situation to future potential employers.

          1. LCL*

            Ouch. This whole thing makes me sad for everyone. I had something slightly similar happen to me in school-got administratively shafted because the decision maker had been on bereavement leave for his wife. So I dropped the issue once I was informed of his circumstances. But that was a really low consequence incident in a school kid’s life, nothing compared to what has happened to you.

            1. valentine*

              Should they offer you your job back, don’t take it. Accept only severance, PTO payout, and a good reference. Being out is right, however awful the path.

          2. Alianora*

            Oof. Now that I hear this additional context his actions are more understandable, though not excusable. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

          3. Friday*

            Oh wow. Ok yes, now the VP’s actions make sense. But as horrible and real as his pain is now, he’s not allowed to cause punitive harm to you. Please file for unemployment.

          4. IrishEm*

            I have all the sympathy and empathy for you. I also think you are a very kind and empathetic person to have this view of theVP’s situation. Not everyone (myself included) would be able to take the VP’s bereavement into account in a situation like this.

            Also, not sure if this is helpful or not, but I’m picturing VP as Théoden and HR as Wormtongue in this situation. Sounds like someone in HR really has it in for you :(
            Do file for unemployment, I don’t know how it works in America but in Ireland if you’re not working you’re entitled to it (if you are genuinely seeking) and it is a support that is in place for a reason. If old job has to defend the decision in court then it will be on the public record that this is a consequence of working for them.

            *all the hugs you might want*

          5. Marthooh*

            This is so sad all around. Obviously, the VP’s personal pain doesn’t make his actions any less unjust, but it’s not possible to say so to him right now.

            I think you should certainly file for unemployment. If you get it, you’ll have more ammunition* to use on HR. Hopefully your boss and grandboss will be willing to help if they can, and letting a little time pass will let veryone take a fresh look at the incident.
            __
            * That’s not the best way to put it, though.

        2. Observer*

          Actually, none of these matter. Even if this is standard practice at the company, this is so out of the norm that most UEI boards are not going to consider this “firing for cause” in the sense that denial of benefits is warranted.

          They know it – that’s why they used such threatening language about it. Otherwise they would have laughed and said “Ha! Good luck with that!”

      6. SignalLost*

        Yes, this. The decisions of unemployment in my state are essentially made by human beings, and it’s hard to see that you would in fact lose a claim even on appeal. I mean, you WERE fired for cause – and they caused it. It’s not like you swiped the cash register and ran.

        And what on earth will they do to you? You don’t have a reference, you don’t have severance, and they’re preventing people from helping you – they’re not also going to come to your house and slash your tires. They can’t do more than they are.

      7. Juli G.*

        Yes, file! The state decides what constitutes unemployment and what doesn’t and some states hold employers to really high standards for proving misconduct and withholding unemployment.

      8. emmelemm*

        Definitely. Make them “defend” their decision. It’s different state-to-state, but a lot of states are pretty favorable towards the worker on unemployment decisions.

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      That’s awful! I am so sorry! Will your boss and grandboss be references for you?
      If I was interviewing someone who said they were fired for falling asleep at work while working a 100 hour week, and their boss verified it, I would not see that as a red flag.

      1. Rebecca*

        Agreed! You are a human being that a human thing happened to! Ugh, I am so sorry. Please file for unemployment. I can’t imagine a court in this land who would agree with them. And again, I wish I knew the name of this awful company so I could avoid doing any business with them, at all!

    7. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I am so sorry about this, it sounds incredibly unfair. I’m sending you jedi hugs and the best of wishes.

      I’d also try and file for unemployment anyway, and I agree with Tara S. about asking your boss/grandboss for references separate from the company.

    8. CatCat*

      This is awful! That VP is a terrible human being!

      I would *DEFINITELY* file for unemployment benefits. They don’t want you to file because then they have to deal with the UI office and any appeal. If you’re denied, APPEAL. In my state, you get a hearing before an administrative judge and, in my experience, quite saavy and can smell BS. They are quick hearings and people usually represent themselves. Check your state’s unemployment website and what the state views as “cause” for firing that result in no benefits. In my state, the threshhold is “misconduct” and that requires the EMPLOYER to prove it existed.

      You’ve got a sympathetic professional network in place in your boss, grandboss, and team members. Reach back out to them and ask for their advice on job searching. They may know of some leads for you!

      I am so sorry this happened to you! You’ve been treated abominably and it is zero reflection on you, but rather a reflection of the company.

      1. Adlib*

        Yes, this is generally how it goes and a good explanation of it. If you’re lucky, the company won’t even show to the hearing (that’s what happened in my case), and you’ll be granted the unemployment. I hope it works out for you as this whole situation is awful. (Again, the phrase “beatings will continue until morale improves” seems true at this place.)

      2. Dweali*

        Definitely reach back to boss and grandboss…they may not be able to give an official reference but if they have leads they could probably figure out a way to give an off-the-records one. And OP never take legal advice from your adversary (and this is what former company now is) file UI and appeal if necessary.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Do this, as well as file for unemployment. When I was laid off, the company’s official position was that management was not “allowed” to give references, but my senior manager told me he would anyway (a positive one, he was clear on that), and did in one case.

          It sounds like the VP is not ready to be back at work after that horrible personal tragedy. I’m sorry you were so excessively punished and I hope things improve for you soon!

      3. Minocho*

        Definitely file! I did when getting fired for not completing a coworker’s project – and the coworker faced no discipline. I filed anyway, and the state granted me unemployment.

        I’m so sorry this happened to you, and I hope you find something amazing very quickly.

      4. Not a cat*

        Adding to those encouraging you to file for unemployment. Please do so. I was fired for cause about 5 years ago and the state (California) awarded it……so you never know.

    9. Liane*

      I would still file for unemployment. VP’s, or even HR’s, definition of what level of “for cause” bars benefits may not match the state’s, and the UI people, NOT ex-employers, get to make that call.
      If possible, use boss or grandboss’s contact info on the UI application. (This isn’t lying if it’s like my state’s online form, which just asks for a supervisor name & phone number.)

      And good luck to you

    10. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      You most certainly CAN file for unemployment, and you SHOULD! Please do not let them talk you out of that. It is ALWAYS your right to file. Whether or not it is granted may be in question, but that is not your employer’s call to make. You ALWAYS have the right to file.

    11. submerged tenths*

      So sorry, and I usually steer clear of legal remedies . . . but this sounds like might be worth consulting an employment lawyer. Your “unauthorized nap” was the direct result of workplace conditions. If nothing else, you might be able to get unemployment benefits!

      1. AnonEmu*

        Seconding this, and so sorry this happened to you! This is totally disproportionate response on their part.

    13. Llama Lawyer*

      I would suggest that you consult with an attorney. There may be some wage payment laws that you’re not aware of, and, of course, it’s at least worth filing for unemployment. What do you have to lose by doing so?

    14. Anna Held*

      That place is full of evil bees! You are better off. No way is both HR and the VP that crazy and incompetent (because yes, this is bad for the company) without the evil bees nesting EVERYWHERE. You just didn’t notice it because they weren’t seen much in your corner of the company.

      Internet hugs for you!

      (Do bees nest?)

    15. misspiggy*

      This would be the definition of constructive dismissal where I am, and you would be in line for a hefty settlement. It might be worth talking to a lawyer in any case.

    16. MissDisplaced*

      FILE FOR UNEMPLOYMENT! File anyway and fight for it. Because I’m assuming you worked those 100+ hours and the all nighter without any additional overtime pay if you’re salary.

      While sleeping at work is generally ’cause,’ there might be an exception in this case.
      Make ’em prove it.

    17. Mouse in the House*

      Wow. Your employer is crazy. The very least you should do is file for unemployment. If you have the money I would also talk to an employment lawyer about receiving additional compensation, being allowed to have references, etc.

    18. Phoenix Programmer*

      I recommend saying toward the end of a 100 hour week I nodded off at my computer. The company policy is a weeks suspension with no pay or PTO allowed. My boss and his boss both wanted an exception for me because of (years of good reviews, excellent work on the tea pot project, etc.) and argued my case to their VP. In response the VP fired me and was explicit he would fire both bosses if they provided a reference.

      Say it calmy and matter of fact.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      You have a lot of patience, OP, I would have been so hopping mad that I would not have even been able to type a post here. So you have your wits about you and that is GOOD.

      You worked 100 hours? That’s around 14 hours a day seven days a week. I think I would call their health insurance company and let them know that employees have to work 100 hours per week and they might be concerned about increased medical bills at that company.

      And I have that rebel side of me who is saying, “tell us the company, OP, we will take care of this for you with our world wide boycott of this company’s products and services.” Rebel Me also wants you to do an interview with a news reporter.

      More reality based, I would talk to an employment attorney.

      From a more personal perspective, of all the loses I have seen, the people hit the hardest seem to be parents who lose children. I had four family members lose adult age children. Those four family members were each dead in less than two years after losing their adult age child. Grief is incredibly powerful. The VP should have stepped back by saying, “My judgement is clouded right now, I will let Sue or Bob decide what to do here.”

      Grief can dress up in many costumes and anger is one of them. This VP is one angry dude. Probably he will make more very large mistakes very soon. His anger is guiding his decisions. None of this is to excuse what he did, matter of fact with his level of heartbreak his compassion should have been higher not lower. So this makes his actions even WORSE. This is relevant to you because I think you need to know that he cannot sustain this level of ugliness. At some point he will experience some type of downturn from it all. I think you should stay strong and advocate for yourself, be that with unemployment or with an attorney, which ever you chose.

      One word of caution: If you do decide to push back then KNOW what it is you want. Do you want your job back? Do you want a severance package with good references? Know what it is you want from these people. You will be asked so have your answer ready.

    20. Phoenix Programmer*

      So who told on you for snoozing? I hope your boss and grand boss are giving them a hard time.

      1. Snoozing Loser*

        It was another employee on our floor (not a member of my immediate department and not a member of the crunch time team). As I had said in my original post last week, the situation was that I had worked 100+ hour in 6 days. For most of that time the work was the right combination of interesting and intense to allow me to go on adrenaline. By Friday afternoon that week the project was nearly complete. Some other team members were going to do a review of my work and provide some final edits for me to incorporate in the report, so I had a break of a couple hours before finishing up the project. I shut the door to my office and was going to catch up on some other emails and paperwork but ended up nodding off (and was audibly snoring, I suppose). The person who heard me snoring went straight to HR instead of either (a) waking me up to ask if I was okay, or (b) talking to my boss or grandboss. The person who reported me is known for reporting others for minor infractions like being one minute late coming back from lunch (even exempt people who are supposed to have more flexibility), footwear being a shade too casual, etc. But she is beloved by HR as their “eyes and ears.”

        1. Friday*

          May karma kick that person in the ass someday.

          One more thing you need to check, Op. If you are exempt from overtime pay, take your regular weekly (if salaried) or hourly wage for 40 hours a week, and see how that same dollar amount shakes out over 100 hours. Are you still over minimum wage. If not, then your company owes you money.

          1. Beekeepers Anonymous*

            For what it’s worth, my entire company had to reclassify hundreds of positions as non-exempt after a group got together and sued and won for regular treatment like this.
            It’s …odd… seeing so many professional engineers & others not typically non-exempt punching a clock, but it has kept them a little less likely to demand excessive OT.

        2. Owler*

          Please, please use the wording similar to what Phoenix Programmer provided above. I’m going to copy it here, because I think it’s so much more reflective of the situation.

          Phoenix Programmer: “I recommend saying toward the end of a 100 hour week I nodded off at my computer. The company policy is a weeks suspension with no pay or PTO allowed. My boss and his boss both wanted an exception for me because of (years of good reviews, excellent work on the tea pot project, etc.) and argued my case to their VP. In response the VP fired me and was explicit he would fire both bosses if they provided a reference.

          “Say it calmly and matter of fact.”

    21. ..Kat..*

      I’m so sorry. Please file for unemployment. Given the reason why you fell asleep, I think you have a chance of prevailing. Have you considered talking with an employment lawyer? IANAL. This just seems so outrageous.

    22. Observer*

      I have not read the responses yet, but you were lied to. You can most definitely file for unemployment. They don’t want you to because they don’t want their practices exposed. But that’s not your problem.

      Were you properly classified as an exempt employee? If not please send them a letter asking to get paid for ALL of the time you worked. If (or when) they refuse, go to the DOL. They are not going to like that. If you were classified as non-exempt it’s pretty straightforward, but if they classified you as exempt when you weren’t it’s going to be more complex. But if you can prove your case, or even have enough to get them interested in taking this on, your former employers are NOT going to be happy campers.

      1. Rocky*

        I don’t know the jurisdiction this happened in, but I agree the OP should get an employment lawyer involved. We had a manager who nodded off at her desk a few times and made some odd decisions. Rather than fire her (!) her manager encouraged her to see a doctor; turned out it was a fast-growing brain tumour. She’s now fine, after 8 months out of the office getting treated, and she’s on a graduated return to work. So all this is to say that falling asleep on the job isn’t usually a disciplinary issue!

  32. Kes*

    Based on things my manager has said, I’m hoping to be promoted early next year. However, I also feel underpaid at the moment and am concerned that if they base the raise on my current salary more so that the typical pay range for the new position, I may still end up underpaid after the promotion.

    I actually looked at leaving earlier this year, but cancelled the interviews after realizing I’d rather stay at my current job, since I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time and it seemed disingenuous to continue the process just to get an offer to leverage for more pay if I didn’t expect to take the job. I’m now worried I may regret this.

    Any suggestions on how to handle this? Should I just wait and see what happens? I’m concerned that if I’m unhappy with the raise, my options will basically be to suck it up and hope for more raise next year, or leave for a better paying position (but I like a lot of things at my current job and would be happy to stay if possible). I don’t know if it’s even possible to change the raise after it’s given if I’m unhappy with it.

    1. Tara S.*

      Research! I’m also possibly getting a promotion, and I’m doing research right now about average pay for my position in the area. The promotion would come with a raise, but not as much as I’d like, so I’m hoping to use numbers to try and convince them. I would wait until they give you an official number before bringing it up, though.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I agree with Tara S. Do research and try to figure out what the going rate is for that type of position in that size of a company in that region. You don’t have to have a job offer in hand. Honestly, though, if you’re at the kind of place that will raise your salary after a promotion based only as a minor increase on your current salary, they’re likely to keep lowballing you in the future, too, with raises (or lack thereof). This is a good test, and if they undervalue you, there’s nothing to stop you from looking for a job even after the promotion.

      1. Kes*

        Thanks. They’re not actually that stingy, I did get a good raise last year, but I felt they lowballed me when I started – their offer was below what I asked for and my experience (think entry level pay when I have several years of experience – they refused to pay more and told me they were ‘taking a risk on me’). I accepted this because it was still more than my underpaid previous job and I thought I could prove myself through my work, which I think I have. I’m just worried they might give me a ‘reasonable’ promotion raise but I still might end up feeling underpaid overall, and this might be my best shot at recovering from the initial lower salary.
        I have talked to my manager about this in a general sense, though without any specifics. I may also be worrying over nothing. I think you’re both right and I should see how things go, but be prepared to try and discuss it if I’m unhappy.

        1. SansaStark*

          This story mimics what happened to me so much that I’m wondering if you’re typing this from an office 9 feet from me! My manager was unable to help as my negotiating was all done through HR, but I knew what that position was worth and HR eventually agreed. Your previous salary should not matter – what matters is the worth of the new job. I hope this all works out for you!

    3. SansaStark*

      Agree with the comments urging you to do research. This exact thing happened to me this year and they low-balled me so bad that I wouldn’t have taken the promotion. I calmly said that the number was much lower than what I had anticipated and let them know that I had done internal research with employees and lots of external research with similar positions. It was extremely nerve wracking, but I knew what the position was worth due to my research and felt as comfortable as I could be while HR “looked into” bumping up the salary offer by 9k. They did, btw, and 5-months into the new job I’m glad I held firm because this job is worth every penny of that raise.

      1. Kes*

        Thanks. This would be my first promotion so I’m not sure what to expect, but it’s good to hear that it could be negotiable and that you were able to do so successfully.

    4. BRR*

      Sort of overlapping with others, have the salary you want in mind and be prepared to proactively bring it up. Sometimes with internal promotions there doesn’t feel like the “right” time to talk salary and you might have to either ask what the pay will be or negotiate. I think it helps to have research ready to present that supports the number you’re giving them. Definitely don’t hope for more of a raise next year. You will more likely than not never get your salary to what it should be that way.

      I’d also recommend not trying use another offer as leverage. Alison’s article on why not to accept a counteroffer touches on some of it.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Find salary surveys for your current & potentially future positions. It’s dsurprising how specific they can be!

  33. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    Found out that, in addition to being severely underpaid for what I do, we are not getting anything for Christmas from the company. No bonus, no lunch, not even a gift card.

    My parents just told me last night that they are getting me a shiny new computer for Christmas so I will be able to access the better job search sites…..

    Fingers crossed I find something better quickly and can save my house!!!!!

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Muriel! Hoping for the first of the year. That would be the best case scenario….unless I could start somewhere this coming Monday morning! LOL…

    3. Kes*

      Haha, good on your parents. Good luck on your job search. Feel free to go ahead and treat yourself if your company won’t – even if it’s just something small like a few chocolates, it might help

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks Kes. My folks are the best. I’ve picked out the new computer, I think mom is going to order it this afternoon. We just got Mrs. See’s candies down here so I plan on buying myself a box of See’s Suckers. If you’ve never had See’s candies, I highly recommend trying it! Very tasty….

    4. Gumby*

      Does your company usually do holiday gifts? Because in my experience “not getting anything for Christmas” is the norm. The underpaid thing is enough of a reason to job search all on its own.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I don’t know, this is my first Christmas with them. But from what I can see, certain employees got bonuses last year and certain employees are being granted paid time off this year. (I don’t even get paid for national holidays so when we are closed the week between Christmas and New Years, I won’t get a check.) I have never worked for a company that didn’t *at least* do a lunch. Last year, I was doing customer service for the sheet-selling Scientologists and we got a Christmas party w/dinner (and an open bar…it was awesome!), lots of opportunities for bonuses as well as a set of $300 bamboo sheets. I really felt like I cleaned up….so this year is a bit of a disappointment.

        I had mentioned in last week’s open thread that I was back to work following my heart condition scare in July and had answered an ad for customer service/data entry, the interview told me they really wanted an account manager so I negotiated my salary based on those duties. Once I got in here, suddenly I’m doing high end graphics creation, creating their sales website….I haven’t done one iota of data entry and have never received training on the customer service aspect. So that kinda tweaks me out about my salary. Had I know I was going to be doing graphics creation and website development, I would have negotiated $5 more per hour.

        1. Woodswoman*

          So they misrepresented the job, are paying you too low for the extra duties you have, and are giving paid time off to other employees but not everyone. What exploitation.

          I’m so glad you have your parent there to help you out and that the new computer is on its way. I hope you find a great new job soon!

          1. Observer*

            Finding a better job is a better long term strategy. It’s not just about the immediate pay. You’re never going to do well with people who don’t play straight.

  34. SheetMaskSenora*

    Am I overstepping boundaries here in wanting to know when my boss will be in the office or work from home?

    My new boss (and new company) is really bad about communicating when they are unavailable or when they are working from home. It’s quite often that it’s not until 10am that I hear from them via chat or an email and I have to ask them if they are coming in today. Before that their status is unavailable or they don’t answer emails. So, I don’t know if they are off that day or just planning on working from home. So far (knock on wood) there hasn’t been any workflow bottlenecks, but it’s irritating to me that my boss is flighty about their presence/availability. I want to say something to them about this, but I’m worried I’m overstepping boundaries here.

    1. Tara S.*

      If you can point to how this is affecting workflow, I don’t think there would be anything wrong with having a conversation about it. You can explain how the uncertainty makes things difficult, and ask if there is a way their in-office/out-of-office status could be communicated. They may have an idea, or you could suggest something, but I think framing the issue by talking about how it’s affecting the work (rather than just being annoying) will be important.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do you need your boss to be physically present to get things done? It sounds like you may not. Meaning, if you email your boss about something and they’re not in the office, do you get a timely response? Basically, look at the line between presence and availability. If your boss is simply not present, then don’t push the issue. If your boss is not available and you need your boss to respond to you, that’s a different matter.

      My boss blocks his calendar pretty well, but sometimes he’s just not here in the office, and that’s ok because if I need something immediately, I can call. On the other hand, I used to have a supervisor who never told me when she would be in and she never answered emails until she was in the office, so that caused a problem. If your situation is more like the former, I’d say let it lie. If it’s more like the latter, then speak to your boss about the schedule and ask what you should do if your boss isn’t in the office and you need an answer immediately.

    3. SheetMaskSenora*

      It’s more of a they don’t respond until they are physically in the office or “online” from home. And there’s never any indication from them when they will be online, so simple questions you would just ask in-person I sit on it until they are available. I’m thinking I should just send them an email, but I feel weird sending an email asking, “Where’s the stapler?” For more important questions, I do an email if they aren’t their in person, but it’s just annoying to come in that morning wondering if the question will get answered before the end of the day or the following one.

      I’m going to go with the framing that you Tara S. & AvonLady Barksdale recommend and ask them how they prefer me to reach them.

      1. LHRBee*

        I think it’s weird that you think your boss owes you his/her schedule. I assume your boss is mich busier and spread across more tasks than you-and that means they get a greater level of flexibility.

        I’d be very put off if one of my team members asked me to provide them my weekly schedule; if I’m working 70 hours a week and spread across 5 teams, and they’re working 45 on a single team, and I’m many levels above them, I certainly don’t owe them my avail on a daily basis.

        Unless you’re literally running into issues that prevent you from doing your work, let it lie. And ask a peer where the stapler is-that’s not a question for your boss.

  35. ExtraExtraAnon*

    My problematic coworker asked our only black coworker if it hurt her to straighten her hair (mine and several other womens hair in the office are curly and we often come in with it straightened, but have never been asked this question). And yesterday told our only asian coworker to “open her eyes, oh wait” when she asked if he knew how to adjust the monitor screen resolution.

    I just needed to share what I’m dealing with right now guys….

    1. LizB*

      Gross. If you have a good HR department, they may want to know about the comment to your asian coworker. Possibly the comment to your black coworker as well, but that one may have a little too much plausible deniability — although paired with the other comment, maybe they’ll pay attention to it as well (as they should).

      1. ExtraExtraAnon*

        they have made inappropriate comments to me before in the past, but when i reported it to HR it was a lot more misery and stress on my part than anything else. I’m not sure what my coworkers want to do so far as reporting to HR but they know they have my support.

        1. valentine*

          You can still report them, and to your and their supervisor(s) as well. Create a reputation as someone who doesn’t tolerate racism. What if you just say, “That’s racist” every time?

        2. Observer*

          Send an FYI email to your supervisor, CC HR and bcc yourself. Even if it’s not the “official” channel for complaints it sets up a situation where the employer can’t claim they didn’t know about the problem. And that gets useful when someone finally goes to the DOL / EEOC.

      1. ExtraExtraAnon*

        the asian coworker immediately told them that was racist and i backed them up that it was absolutely not appropriate to say. Offender insisted they didn’t mean it in a racist way and therefore it was not. we both told Offender that didn’t matter and that it was. they locked themself in their office for the rest of the day.

      1. ExtraExtraAnon*

        yes, right away we both called them out but they insist that their intentions weren’t racist and so what they said was absolutely fine. then hid from us for the rest of the day.

        1. LibbyG*

          White fragility in action!

          I’m glad people have their legs under them to speak up in the moment. I hope it makes a difference.

    6. Holly*

      I would definitely report this to HR – if you’re uncomfortable doing that at the moment, I’d write an e-mail to yourself (and cc your personal email) noting the date, what she said, and witnesses, so that if you ever need it or if someone else wants to report you can back them up.

    7. froodle*

      My jaw dropped so fast it actually clicked!! Open your eyes oh wait?! Jeeeebus. Sorry you and.your poor coworkers gotta deal with that mess.

    9. Jules the 3rd*

      That sucks! You shouldn’t have to deal with that, and neither should your coworkers.

      Document time, date and comments, even if it’s only in a note to yourself.

      1. ExtraExtraAnon*

        when i mentioned the hair straightening question they exclaimed that they didn’t know if it did. So i asked if hair had nerve endings? did it hurt to cut it? no. This person really prides themselves in being smart(er than everyone else).

  36. LizB*

    Managers of part-time employees, help! I’m scheduling my part-time employees for the next schedule period (starting in January). I asked for their availability, and gave them two weeks to get me that info. One of my employees, Alice, let me know that she still didn’t know her college schedule and wouldn’t be able to get me her availability by the deadline. I told her that if I didn’t have her availability, I wouldn’t be able to schedule her for regular shifts.

    A week after the deadline, I contacted Alice saying I was almost ready to publish the schedule and if she had any ideas about her availability, now was the time to tell me. She didn’t respond to the email. I published the schedule two days later, without Alice on it.

    A few days later, Alice emailed saying she now had her schedule and could work shifts X, Y, and Z. I’ve already scheduled people for those shifts, and people who have significantly more seniority than Alice. Is it okay for me to get back to her and say “I can’t give you any of those shifts, this is what I have open, if you can’t work those then you can be a sub”? I feel bad essentially leaving her off the schedule because I know she wants to work, but I couldn’t delay my scheduling for one person.

    1. Four lights*

      Overall, I think you did the best you could, if there was no way to delay it I don’t know what else you could have done. I’m surprised she couldn’t at least tell she’d be free on Saturday or something. How long is the schedule period for? If it’s longer than two weeks, then I might try to change things for her.

      1. LizB*

        Right now I only have January published, but there isn’t a lot of shuffling I can do for February. I reached out to see if she’d be available for Shift Q, since X Y and Z are full, so if she is I can move some folks around without causing them inconvenience. But I think she’ll just have to sub for January.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I think you did what you could. You gave her more than one heads up. She’s asking just in case, but it’s fine to tell her that you had to have the schedule set when you said you did, and that she can serve as the first level back up for anybody looking to have shifts covered, until the next time you set the schedule. This is just something that happens when you employ college students, and usually you and they can handle this without hard feelings. She might be a better fit for a job that doesn’t have a set schedule published so far in advance, but that’s not your fault.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      A store manager I know deals with this all the time. If the employee is a super performer, then it would make sense to try to accommodate. But only if it’s far enough in advance that you can switch the other employees’ shifts without inconveniencing them or taking work hours away that you’ve promised.

      Otherwise, I’d tell Alice that the schedule is set and you’re not willing to change it.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      Ahhh….the retail memories…..This happened to me on more than one occasion. I think you’ve done the best you can. The easiest solution is to tell her to contact the other employees who are scheduled for the shifts she is available for and offer to take their shifts. It was a rare occasion that an employee couldn’t pick up at least a few shifts this way. If no one is willing to give her their shifts, then it is what it is. Also, random, but unless she is attending a non-traditional educational institution, she should have been registered for classes and had her schedule in time to provide it if the other students already had their schedules. Not really your issue, but if it were me, I’d ask her why she didn’t have her schedule to determine if there is a legit reason or if she is just disorganized.

  37. ThatGirl*

    I’m in such a weird spot at work right now. I’m not in charge of anyone, but our team lead and both of my coworkers are new (like, since August) and I end up having to do the bulk of the training. I also have to tell the new team lead how my coworkers are doing, performance wise, and try to correct any major issues (we’re in customer-facing roles). It’s so awkward for me! It’s also not what I thought I would be doing in this role – I’ve only been here 18 months. I need to have a serious talk with my team lead at review time. Oy.

    1. ReadyToGo*

      Would you be willing to continue doing the work if you were promoted to a more senior position? Or are you not interested in those kinds of responsibilities?

      1. ThatGirl*

        I wouldn’t mind if I had some actual authority and less of the grunt work. I’d really like to do more of my actual job. And I wish the team lead was doing more of what the old one did, day to day. She does agree that my talents are being wasted, at least.

  38. Doug Judy*

    My husband is starting a new job in a new feild Monday. He’s worked construction for many years but it’s becoming too hard after multiple knee and neck surgeries to continue. He finally has faced reality and for a job in manufacturing.

    He’s depressed. The pay starting out is low but I’m trying to get him to see the positives. It’s much less physically demanding. He won’t have to work out in the elements. It’s stable work. The company has amazing benefits. He’s got an incredible work ethic and I think he’ll move up quickly.

    Does anyone have experience changing to a job they weren’t super thrilled about going into it but it turned out to be a great decision?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      My dad went from driving a truck to management. He was an overnight delivery driver for 30 years before moving into a day job. The difference was shocking to him, although my sister and I tried to warn him that day people are different than night people. He’s now in more of a liaison role between the drivers and the warehouse, which allows him to be not in an office but also not driving so I think he’s enjoying that more. He does like being around more during the evenings/afternoons and it’s way less physical so all positives. My best advice is to remember it will take time to adjust to such a big transition, but continuing to focus on the positives is good (although still acknowledging the difficulties) is a good way to support.

    2. Tara S.*

      Congrats to your husband! My uncle made that transition after working construction and it’s been great in a lot of ways. It think it’s normal to be sad/worried about starting a new job, especially when it’s in a new field and for lower pay! I’m almost always in that mode when starting a new job, even when it’s in my same field. You know him best, but I would try not to pressure him to feel 100% about it right away. New jobs are always stressful, and a transition period is super normal. If he’s still depressed about the change after a few months, then you could circle back around to the positives you mentioned. In the mean time, I think the best thing to be supportive is to just acknowledge that the transition is hard. No buts. No “but it’s going to be so much better in the long run.” He probably just needs some time to adjust. Best of luck!

      1. Doug Judy*

        Good point. I’m trying to be enthusiastic about it so he feels better but I’ll back off a bit. It’s actually in the plant of a company I used to worked 8 years for and they treat their employees very well.

        He’s basically Ron Swanson, so any change is hard for him at first.

    3. School Inclusion Specialist*

      I think the best thing you can do right now is to validate that the situation is really hard and listen when he explain why he’s feeling down. You can work together to problem solve those concerns if he’s open to it, but trying to get him to see the positives without acknowledging the challenges, in my experience, leads to the person shutting down and refusing to talk. As long as he gets up and goes to work Monday, it’s a win. He may sit in his feelings of sadness for a while. If they go on for more than a few weeks, he may need help from a doctor. He can acknowledge it is a new win and still feel sad. After I left a job I had for almost decade that was my “dream job”, the very act of leaving felt like a failure even though I knew it was the right thing to do. It has taken me years (and several job changes/some therapy) to fully own that it wasn’t a failure to leave and it was a good thing.

      That said, I had a family member who worked in manufacturing, was laid off, and had to take a job on the night shift at the new place even after decades of experience. He’s pretty stoic, so he didn’t talk about it much, but I could tell he wasn’t excited. But he has found he really likes the lifestyle change. But the things he liked about it weren’t things he thought he would like about it before he started. It wasn’t till he was in it that he could see things he really liked about it.

      1. Anna Held*

        This is great advice.

        If it’ll help, though, do some math on how much you’re saving with those great benefits. A lot of people look at salary, not the overall package. If you can say things like “with the savings from X, we can still do a week at the lake” or whatever, it might help reframe it for him.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I think he is mourning the loss of a job/profession that he liked. Plus, coworkers and a routine that he liked and was familiar with. He is probably also mourning the loss of a young, strong, healthy body. And, men commonly value themselves based on what they earn. And finally, it is hard to start over at the bottom.

  39. Labradoodle Daddy*

    I need advice, AAM-ers.

    I discovered yesterday morning that my difficult, rude coworker who cannot write legibly (who I’ve written about on this board before) filed a frivolous wrongful termination suit against a former employer after she was fired. The suit was thrown out because ” (1) her attitude, (2) her “[u]n-professional communications with [her] manager and [c]o-workers,” and (3) her “[p]oor quality of written communications.” — complaints the entire reception training team has made to my manager for 8 weeks now since this problem employee’s first day. We’ve had bad hires in the past and I’ve brought up to management that their hiring process is not at all thorough. To make me *really* feel like Cassandra, this was the third result that popped up on Google when I searched my colleague’s name + New York. I work for a contractor company that staffs the reception team at a multinational hedge fund in NYC. My crappy company’s contract is in the process of being renewed, and everyone knows there is a very good chance that it won’t be renewed. I loathe the contractor company, they are thoroughly incompetent.

    What should I do, AAM? Should I bring this to the attention of the NY facilities contact, who has a say in the contracts? I won’t tell anyone at the crappy contractor company, obviously, as this isn’t even close to the first time that they’ve proven themselves to be shady and incompetent. Would it reflect badly on me if I whistleblew? *Is* this whistleblowing? Any advice would be appreciated, as I haven’t the faintest idea what to do.

    1. Holly*

      So, I totally understand your concern, but I’m a little confused about the action you want to take. My understanding is that you work for the company that staffs a hedge fund. Who is the “NY facilities contact” – is that part of your company, or a third party that signs off on the contract between your company and the hedge fund?

      It’s not clear what your role at the staffing company is, but I think it would be wildly inappropriate and put you at serious risk (legal, financially) if you made any sort of call to try and undermine your own company’s contract. And while I can’t provide legal advice, no whistleblower law I can think of would protect you for this, because the conduct isn’t illegal, you’re just concerned that they are not doing a good job. This would be something to share internally with your manager or whatever avenue there might be, if any, for internal concerns.

      Also, you keep referring to your company as “crappy” – I think it’s time to start looking for a new job if you feel like it’s so crappy and you’re not in a position of power to change anything.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        The facilities contact is the woman employed by the hedge fund who helps decide which contracting companies the hedge fund will use: caterers, cleaning, admin staff, etc.

        I think part of my concern is that contractor company goes out of its way to hide its massive screwups from hedge fund in order to keep the contract (other things they’ve done: threaten my job after I had a miscarriage and had too many doctors appointments afterwards, threatened the job of a new mother whose premature baby kept having the gall to have breathing abilities, covered up for a retaliation-prone manager so hedge fund wouldn’t find out, covered up accusations of sexual harassment so the hedge fund wouldn’t find out [the classic ‘we’ve investigated ourselves and have decided we did nothing wrong” move, with the tiny hiccup that they never bothered to interview either woman who alleged the claims of harassment).

        So yeah… hope that gives more context?

        2. Holly*

          Thank you for explaining some more background – I’m sorry you have to go through this! I’d consider your legal options and do research about potentially reporting to EEOC or state agency depending on the state – *that* would be protected activity – and presumably a company contracting your company could do their own due diligence to find out that this is going on, especially after a complaint is filed. I wouldn’t be too concerned about the hedge fund, they can do their own due diligence in who they contract with, my concern would be making sure you’re protected and safely reporting the wrongdoing of your workplace to improve conditions for yourself and the other employees there.

      3. Confused*

        The way this is written is so confusing. I just read this 3 times and can figure out what on earth is going on. Who is Cassandra? What does the google search show? Other things make no sense. Please reread what you have written cause I can’t be the only one totally confused here.

        1. Labradoodle Daddy*

          Cassandra is a reference to the myth– gifted with prophecy, cursed so that no one would ever believe her.

          I googled her name out of curiosity on the train ride home after she’d told me during that day that she had been let go from her last job (which didn’t surprise me, based on her conduct in her time with us).

        2. Labradoodle Daddy*

          Oh, and what I meant by the Google search comment was that this information wasn’t difficult to find, I found it without really meaning to, which (to my thinking) proves my theory that my manager is not even doing the most basic level of due diligence before hiring people for our team (ie– making sure they can write legibly, calling past employers to see how they interacted with coworkers/management, etc).

        3. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

          Cassandra is the prophetess from the Iliad cursed to utter true prophecies that no one would believe. Use of the name like this refers to being someone who can see the bad shit coming who no one will listen to

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      I don’t think it rises to the level of whistle-blowing, that’s usually a reference to calling out illegal activities. Alerting EEOC / labor board to their illegal actions around your miscarriage / the new mom, that would be whistle blowing.

      Think about what you would want to get, and whether this would make that happen.
      – Do you want the NY facilities manager to use this to force your company to hire better? That’s not going to happen. The NY company isn’t going to get into that much detail in how your company works.
      – Do you want the NY facilities mgr to require difficult co-worker be fired? The google search isn’t going to make that happen either – they’ve seen the same work level from co-irker, they know it’s bad, they’ll either react or not based on the current work.
      – Do you want NY facilities mgr to end the contract with your company? (Serious question, there could be plusses / reasons for you to want that). That’s the most likely outcome.
      – Do you want to try to leverage it into a job with the hedge fund? That’s unlikely, bcs they’re contracting this stuff out.

      I am *not* saying don’t do it – I am saying that it’s most likely going to either be ignored or used as one item in terminating the contract. (I am in a vaguely similar position to the facilities manager – I monitor an external contract for services. We Do Not have anything to do with their hiring decisions or process. We do note specific problems and request they be fixed.)

      Your company is more likely to pay attention to it, if you can put it as a business risk: ‘Manager hired co irker when a basic check shows this huge problem. Co irker continues to have the same problem, which may be putting the contract with NY Hedge Fund at risk.’

      But as bad as they sound, they’re more likely to retaliate against you. And since this is not about illegal activities, I *think* you wouldn’t be protected under whistle-blowing laws.

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I really appreciate you laying out these steps for me, I had vague ideas about how this might play out that you articulated way better than I could. I know facilities manager isn’t happy with what contractor company has been giving her: namely, endless drama, a turnover rate over 100%, and incompetent admins that in turn piss off RAs and EAs, who complain to facilities manager. It’s a nightmare over here, tbh. Part of the issue is that facilities manager isn’t willing to pay for the quality of employee she needs to stock this team.

      2. Labradoodle Daddy*

        (another issue is that our title is deliberately downplayed and thus doesn’t encompass the scope of our abilities, so “receptionist” is frankly kind of a misnomer…)

  40. AnonyMouse*

    So I posted about this last week, but was too late to get a response. I’m struggling with waiting to hear back after an interview around the holidays. I interviewed for a position two weeks ago and when I asked for the estimated timeline, I was told I’d hear back in late December (probably sometime next week). I still haven’t heard anything, and my references have not been requested yet. My worry is that I work in higher education, and so I know that this institution will be closing around December 24th/25th and they won’t be reopening until January 2nd. The estimated start time that I was given was between January 2nd-9th. I feel like at this point, I either didn’t get it or they are adjusting their timeline (they told me that they still had interviews the week after I was interviewed, I’m not sure about this week. I do know someone who works at this institution who told me that this was a busy week particularly for that office i.e. finals, commencement, new winter admits going through orientation, etc). I’m wondering about how I should handle follow up? Is now an appropriate time to follow up or should I wait? I’m also particularly wondering how I should ask if their timeline has been revised. Below is a rough script that I’d use:

    “Hello Janet:

    I just wanted to follow up with you regarding the __________________ position that I interviewed for a few weeks ago. When I spoke to Michael about the hiring timeline, he told me that you would be looking to move forward with your chosen candidates by the end of the month, with an anticipated start date between January 2nd-9th. I am still very interested in the position, and just wanted to know if you have any updates at this point in the process. I am happy to provide more information at this time if that would be helpful!

    Sincerely,
    Eleanor Shellstrop”

    I just want to make sure that this doesn’t come across too pushy (also any advice on how to make it more conversational would be great! I built this based off of one of Alison’s scripts). My tentative plan is to wait until Monday to send if I don’t hear back today (so that I’m reaching out after two weeks from my interview date).

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I don’t think the email is too pushy, and that Monday sounds like a good day to send it. It’s entirely possible that they got caught up in their own end of the semester shenanigans that they haven’t had time to get the committee together/review their notes/talk to HR/etc.

    3. Doug Judy*

      Just want to say +100 on the names. Good luck. I’m also job hunting and have had a few interviews but yeah this time of year is just notoriously bad for job searching. I wouldn’t email as they already said late December.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you’re reiterating the timeline you were told, I would add a softener after that bit like “Knowing that timelines frequently change, especially around the holidays, I wanted to confirm that was still accurate.” Otherwise it kind of sounds like you’re telling her the timeline because you think she doesn’t know it or are impatient. I’d also pull out a couple of your “justs”, which is just a general work email tip I’ve found super useful. They come across as softening in an apologetic way, and are typically used by women. Being a woman myself, I try to share that tip as often as possible. So:

      I wanted to reach out regarding the __________________ position that I interviewed for a few weeks ago. When I spoke to Michael about the hiring timeline at that point, he told me that you would be looking to move forward with your chosen candidates by the end of the month, with an anticipated start date between January 2nd-9th. Knowing that timelines frequently change, especially around the holidays, I wanted to confirm that was still accurate. I am still very interested in the position, and would be interested in any updates you’re able to give at this point in the process. I am happy to provide more information at this time if that would be helpful!

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Thank you for the edits! I’ve never thought about how often I use the word “just,” so I’m going to try to be mindful of that in general (it will probably help with work emails too!). I was going based off of Alison’s advice on follow up emails to keep it short, but you bring up a good point about how the timeline language could get misconstrued. My intent was to make sure I was correct, but I like how you softened it!

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          I still have to go back and edit emails to not include “just” – I’m just following up… I just wanted to know… I just need a quick touchbase…It is SO INGRAINED, and I’ve been trying to cut back on it for months! I also try to limit “I want” or “I wanted” or “I’d like to” for the same reason, but as you can see from my edits, it’s SO HARD. It feels way too firm when I write that way, but when I pay attention to the way my male colleagues write emails, they aren’t using that kind of phrasing nearly as often, so I do my best. I do think in some cases “I want” is appropriately soft – like in your email above. But if I’m sending my dev team a request or instructions, there’s no reason for me to phrase it like that, even though I want to.

  41. New Author*

    As of this month I have a real book deal so I need to start taking my writing professionally. I’m struggling because it’s not really a job – the pay is so little compared to the effort the publishing company wants from me, both in terms of revisions and in terms of marketing. I also have a horror of social media and selling stuff, so I need to find a way that I can live with of tackling this. This is all kind of “in my spare time” right now since obviously my actual job is what pays my bills, not this new side gig. Of course I’d love to someday be a FT writer, but that seems like such a pipe dream – I believe even professional writers make more money from workshops/classes/conferences/consulting etc than from actually selling books. Any advice from other authors?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m not an author myself, but as an avid reader, I’ve read a lot of author blogs, and I would recommend you do that if you don’t. A lot of them (especially indies, or those who work with smaller publishers) talk about self-promotion, which platforms they use and why, pitfalls, etc. Plus a lot of other stuff you might find really useful. So maybe if you google around for blogs by authors you admire, authors who are maybe a step or two ahead of you in their career in your genre/niche, other authors at your publisher, etc, you may find something that can give you some guidance. I know you said you don’t like social media, but there are author support groups out there too (especially on FB). Finding a good one of those might be a nice way to get your feet wet in social while also finding people who can help you through the process a bit.

    2. Arts assistant*

      Not an author but I did work in publishing. I’m not sure what kind of book you are writing but I worked in literary publishing and almost every single writer made their living as a professor or teacher and did the bulk of their writing and revising over school breaks. I would recommend applying for artistic grants and fellowships if you’re eligible – again depends on what you’re writing.

      1. New Author*

        Oh, I expect I’ll just stay in my day job / current field until I retire. I’m pretty sure cushy white collar office job with benefits is better than trying to cobble other things together, if there’s no path where I can make a living writing full time. It seems like one or two writers in a generation (like, literally JK Rowling) get to do that.

    3. Tisme*

      Congratulations!

      I’m not published, after years of trying to wrangle artists I’m converting my stuff from comic / graphic novels to novel format. It’s slow going thanks to a mix of chronic illness and dyslexia, thinking in more ‘disjointed’ thoughts for comics works better with my brain. [ends tangent]

      I second looking at the sites of authors who’s work you like etc.

      Also if you have trusted family / friends who use Facebook etc., and are happy to rope them in to help you get set up, that should help. I.e for Facebook, you’d want a ‘page’ not a personal account. This helps you manage it better and keep one step ‘back’, its what actors etc. on there use. I’ve not used any of the other formats (& no longer use FB – if I ever get to your position I’ll have to get over my own preference to no longer be on social media.), to know if they allow for a similar type of distance, hence asking those you trust for help with them. I find that asking questions of a user of a site is easier than going through instructions.

      It might help to start off with just one form of social media, get confident with that, then add in others over time.

      A website is also very helpful. I like to check them out for updates on upcoming books and also if I’ve just found a writer, to discover what books I need to locate.

      Idea, might not be any good (actual authors, please chime in), but reading groups who post on places like Goodreads, might help to get your books ‘out there’. Some seem to post their reviews in a few places, so might help you out that way.

      I’m kind of surprised that publisher’s don’t have a basic ‘to do’ list (or what I’d term it for me an ‘idiots guide’) to help out new authors with this sort of thing.

      Won’t make you money, but offering a first book free on amazon, might get you reviewed there. (I love free books, but tend not to review books, never been good at it, only twice have I posted when it was a book I hated, and was bought books.) — You can also put author blurb up there as well.

      Oh I use Fantasticfiction website to find information on authors. I’m sure I’ve seen some of the author pages where they link authors they like. I have no clue how this stuff works, but maybe that’d help people find your books? It’s also just a basic author blurb and list of books written / books due to come out. Not everyone has a photo up either, so nice for those who don’t want to do that!

      If you’re not going to use a full pen name, maybe consider just using initials? That might make being on social media work better since you’ll be in your ‘author persona’ and can shrug that off when you want to go back to being ‘you.’ Maybe think of that side of it as voicing another character?

      You can do this, you’ve done the tougher parts, written the book and hooked a publisher.

    4. Frea*

      Hey! I’m in this situation myself (or have been; I’m a couple years in) where the publishing company wanted me to do the bulk of the revisions/marketing. And the pay is peanuts compared to the stable checks and benefits I get at my dayjob. In the beginning it’s overwhelming to be faced with all of the obligations and it feels like you need to do EVERYTHING at once, but that’s really not the case. It helped me to think of my social media obligations as a persona/separate identity so that I could get through the marketing side of things (networking, hanging out with other authors). I had to learn balance (offering pics of my bearded dragon in a hat as a reward for all of my followers putting up with a string of promo tweets, for example), but the most valuable thing to me was building a network of other authors.

      Seconding The Ginger Ginger about reading blogs from indie self-pubbers, but also go into those knowing some of those people are very intense and analytical and it can stress you out even more. The most important thing is to remind yourself that you don’t have to do this all at once. Take a breath, smell the roses. You’re getting published.

      And most of all, congrats! It’s a dream come true and the first scary step into a new world. I like to joke to my friends that I finally achieved my lifelong dream—and the biggest thing it’s given me is a need to take anxiety meds. They…don’t seem to find it as darkly funny as I do.

    5. Youth*

      That’s so great! I haven’t gotten to that point yet (still agent-searching), but I also hate selling things and feel awkward about pushing things on social media.

      Knowing that, one thing I’ve been doing is posting other things I’ve written (blog posts, articles) to my Facebook and sometimes Twitter. If my old blog’s analytics show true, about 5-10% of my Facebook friends regularly click to read something I’ve written. My hope is that once I have an actual novel to sell, it will come across less as “I’m-trying-to-sell-you-something” and more as “y’all-seem-to-like-my-writing-so-good-news-here’s-more-stuff-for-you.”

      1. Tisme*

        Good luck on the agent finding!

        I’m not there yet, but I want to cheer lead for those of you who are at that step or further along. — Also imagine me waving pom poms like mad for others at my stage, or steps back… you can do this, go everyone!

        (Why yes the pain and it being after 11pm & my not sleeping well lately, is making me a bit loopy… so apologies if a bit too ‘rah-rah-yay’ in my replies.)

    6. Lore*

      I work for one of the big publishers and we have a ton of resources for authors including a monthly newsletter with social media and marketing tips. Ask your editor/marketing person/publicist what resources they have. They want you to be good at this!

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Look around for writing groups in your region, especially any that focus on your genre.
      For example RWA, Romance Writers of America, or SFWA, Science Fiction Writers of America, both of which have local chapters and national gatherings.

      1. jolene*

        I’m a professional author and have supported myself writing books for 20 years. I strongly, strongly advise against giving up the day job! Publishing is getting worse and worse about exploiting authors. I also advise equally strongly against spending a lot of time on social media because the publisher wants you to “do marketing”. I have friends with huge social media followings and that does *not* translate into high numbers of books sold.

        Joining the relevant writers’ group – RNA, Mystery Writers of America/CWA etc etc is great advice – see if your publisher will send you to the conferences. Great for networking/making friends/getting blurbs.

        As far as “revisions” go, though – you mean edits, right – yup, they give you notes and you do the edits. That’s part of your job, not theirs.

  42. Teapot librarian*

    New boss starts Monday! I’ve been working on a memo for her for the last week. I’m trying to include everything while highlighting the priorities, but of course, everything is a priority. I don’t really want Monday to be “congratulations! Let me tell you the mess you’ve gotten yourself into!” but there are a lot of things that my soon-to-be-previous boss didn’t take care of. And then there’s the question of what to do/how to deal with my Hoarder Employee. I’m hoping new boss will be supportive!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      *Support*–library adjacent field and we’ve had some new people start in my section and one more on the way, and I’m trying so hard to check my cynicism, and not to warn them how demoralizing and soul-crushing the place can be.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I’m sorry your workplace is demoralizing and soul-crushing! My library-adjacent workplace (I’m the director) reports to a larger, non-library-adjacent organization, so there’s an element of educating my new boss what we do and how it can’t just be done more quickly.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Personally, I wouldn’t bring up something like a problem employee on a new bosses very first day. They’re going to be filling out paperwork and trying to remember everybody’s name. I don’t want to come across as if I’ve been waiting to fire this person and am gleeful to do it at the first opportunity. I’d schedule a debrief for the end of their first week or their second week with a title like “status updates” and give them a sense of everything that’s in flux, letting them decide which ones they’re ready to dig in on right away. But perhaps others disagree?

      1. Teapot librarian*

        I should have put those two things in separate paragraphs. I do want new boss to be aware of the issues that I have with Hoarder Employee because they play into some of the higher priority issues for my office, but I meant to refer to the question of how to deal with him as a separate subject from the new boss.

  43. MsChanandlerBong*

    If you had to fire someone, would you do it now, or would you wait until after Christmas? This person didn’t do anything illegal or unethical that would warrant immediate dismissal. He’s a freelancer, so there are no considerations regarding retirement contributions, health insurance, or other benefits. The guy just isn’t a good fit for our culture, and he has violated our policies several times within the past few weeks (claiming assignments, holding them for several days, and then telling us the day they’re due to the client that he can’t/doesn’t want to do them, which leaves us scrambling to find someone else to do them quickly). I was thinking since he didn’t do anything super egregious that we should wait until around January 5 to let him go. What do you think?

    1. Jen*

      I would do it now, so he can be better prepared. People can spend a lot of money at Christmas and warning him may help him prep better.

    2. HRlady*

      I don’t typically discipline or fire anyone before the holidays, especially Christmas time. I may make an exception depending on the nature of the issue, but typically I avoid it.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      Ideally you’d have given him some kind of feedback before now that things aren’t looking great for him, so he’s not completely taken by surprise, and then if it were me I’d wait drop to the axe in the new year. I probably wouldn’t bring it up for the first time right before the holidays though, either.

    4. Susan*

      I’d say not notifying that you can do work until the day it is due is pretty egregious, IMHO; it’s a baseline expectation.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        And it sounds like it’s escalating, since this happened multiple times in the past few weeks. Let him go now, it’s not worth waiting and dealing with additional last-minute cancellations.

    5. Not All*

      Because this time of year people have a tendency to spend quite a bit of discretionary money, I would definitely give him a heads up as quickly as possible that it isn’t looking good for retention.

      My (now ex) husband was laid off the week after Christmas one year…I’m sure they meant to be kind by waiting but it meant we had spent a lot of money on gifts that we would not have even considered if we would have known it was in the works. It made an already challenging financial situation MUCH worse.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        I agree with “Not All”. Fire him now. It gives him a chance to change his spending and activities over the holidays.

    6. Someone Else*

      This claiming assignments, holding them for several days, and then telling us the day they’re due to the client that he can’t/doesn’t want to do them, which leaves us scrambling to find someone else to do them quickly to me is egregious enough to fire him right now.

    7. Observer*

      I’m going to agree that what you describe IS egregious. He’s directly harmed the quality of the work you provide and put client relationships at risk.

      If there is work for him to do, I’d day tell him NOW that 1/4 is going to be his last day. This way he gets a heads up and a buffer, but doesn’t wind up spending money on the assumption that he actually has a job.

  44. Janet Snakehole*

    This past Tuesday I had a final-round interview for an organization I’ve long been interested in working for. It was my second time getting to the final round for a job there. I really thought that this time, I presented myself well and stood a decent chance of getting the position. HR told me they’d be making a decision by Wednesday (ie very quickly) – it’s now Friday and I’ve heard nothing so I assume I didn’t get it.

    I’m better now than I was on Wednesday (when I checked my phone anxiously every 30 seconds), but still really bummed. The job would’ve paid way more than my current one, had better hours, and more interesting work. It’s just tough to come back to my current job (which is fine, but not great) and know I was so close to being able to leave. As this is far from the first great job I’ve interviewed for but not gotten, it often feels like I’m destined to never get a position I’m truly excited about. Anyone else ever feel this way?

    1. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      Yes, definitely! I am actually in this boat right now, waiting to hear back about a position I interviewed for last week and assuming I wasn’t selected . I always try to have low expectations in a job search, but then I tend to get a pretty high number of interviews relative to the job applications I send out, so I start to get optimistic…and it pretty much ends in disappointment. I know this is a normal part of the process, and I do have an ok job now, but I definitely fear that I’ll never get a job i’m actually excited about.

    2. Funny Cide*

      Right after college graduation, I was struggling to find a place in my field that I wouldn’t be miserable in. I was offered a job that I thought would be acceptable in an unrelated field. Thanks to a connection at my part-time job until I found a permanent position, i had a perfect lead and an in with the hiring manager for something I was finally SO excited about – but the position wouldn’t have even posted for several more months, then adding a slow-moving company on hiring decisions, and would have involved a cross country move. So, I took the acceptable position and it actually became a true blessing, but I’ve always wondered where I’d be in life if the other one had worked out – since it was what I had really actually wanted to do.

      1. Janet Snakehole*

        Thanks, Funny Cide and Dr. Vanessa Poseidon. It’s nice to know I’m not alone. Part of the reason I feel this way is because I never actually HAVE gotten a job I was genuinely excited about – after several months of job searching after graduating college, I finally took my current position (in spite of many reservations) basically because they were the only one offering. It’s turned out to be better than I initially feared, but still not a super great fit for me. I know job searching takes a long time, but I was hopeful because I actually had real work experience on my resume this time around. Ah well. I keep telling myself that there’s something even better around the corner…hopefully one day that’ll actually be true!

    3. away from the elevator please*

      Yes! I am in exactly that position now. I am one of 3 candidates for a job I REALLY REALLY want, and thought I would hear yesterday. This job would be a huge pay increase, better hours, and a better work culture. I too was checking my phone every 30 seconds yesterday until I had to limit myself down to every 30 minutes. When the end of the work day rolled around, I was definitely disappointed and now am steeling myself for hearing I didn’t get it.

      This would be a “good job” – something I’ve never had. I’ve always worked for small companies in creative fields where the pay has been ok, but not great, and the benefits similar. This job is for university and it all would be so….awesome. Even a pension!

      I will still send out positive energy for you – you never know, it might just be taking a little longer that they expected!

  45. Danger: Gumption Ahead*

    I know too much about my least favorite coworker, too, too much. She does everything on speakerphone and most of what she does all day is not work related. I know about her cheating in school, her attempts at scammy house flipping, her married boyfriend, her ex husband who lives in her house, her son with a warrant, her poor daughter from whom she is always taking money from and trying to get to skip work, her ovaries, her attempts to find a doctor who will do bariatric surgery because she keeps getting turned down….

    All of this despite high end noise cancelling headphones since I can’t keep them on all day and numerous people, including me and our boss telling her to take it outside. Please, please, please, HR wheels! Turn faster

    3. Gumby*

      At some point I would be tempted to chime in on these speakerphone conversations. *She’s* the one making them communal discussions, you can’t be blamed for participating…

  46. What now?*

    Feeling super discouraged today. Heard from a job I really wanted saying that they were prepared to make me an offer…until an internal candidate threw their name in at the last minute. Needless to say, I got lots of compliments, but no offer.

    We moved for my husband’s work, so I settled for my current job (now 3+ years) because we needed the income. This is the third time in recent days that I’ve been a finalist for a job that seemed closer to my training/experience/career goals. There aren’t many jobs in my immediate area, so I’m feeling really stuck. Any ideas on how to keep up the momentum in job searches after disappointment?

    1. Four lights*

      Don’t be afraid to take a break to get away from the mental stress, then start fresh a few weeks later.

      1. Funny Cide*

        I just really wanted to second this. You won’t be putting your best foot forward if your mind is focused on the discouraging moments.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Keep yourself physically moving and breathing and remind yourself of successes you’ve had in the past. Keep reminding yourself of those successes. Best of Luck.

    3. Jean (just Jean)*

      Oof. Yuck. Always a finalist, never the new hire is not a fun experience. By all means take some time to recover before you take your next step. Also do your best to follow your instinct to make lemonade out of these recurring lemons. Keep telling yourself that staying 3+ years at your current job is proof that you can do well and people want to keep you around. And if you found one job 3+ years ago you can find another one. Finally, at least you’re employed while job-hunting. It may not be the job of your dreams but it allows you to sidestep the fish eye some HR folks and hiring managers have about applicants who are not simultaneously employed.
      Can you stay in touch with any of the people you meet in interviews?
      Can you expand your focus from “find my next & better job” to “improve my work life in many ways, even if they don’t obviously lead straight to a job change”?
      Feel free to grind your teeth at all my forced good cheer. Adulthood has a lot of these “power through the tough times” experiences. It’s okay to privately grumble about them.

      1. What now?*

        Thanks for the advice, All! Part of my problem is that my program recently shut down due to a funding change, so my duties look totally different than when I started and I am working less. Definitely keeping in touch with these interviewers (one site mentioned potentially creating a position for me in the new year) and looking at expanding my credentials with some extra training. Just bummed! Thanks for the encouragement!

  47. Mockingjay*

    Good news! My boss called me this morning and asked would I be interested in running a new project within our overall program. I am completely thrilled. The new project is something I have extensive experience doing. Current project is pretty much on automatic at this point (2 years in) and my work could easily be turned over to someone else.

    He is pitching me to the Powers that Be. I am to quietly work up a transition plan (Grandboss’s main concern is that my shifting roles doesn’t affect Current project negatively, as Current project is a success story). Probably nothing will happen until the New year, but still, what a nice holiday gift!

  48. GigglyPuff*

    Who would you report incompetent real estate agents too?

    My mom is selling her house, and the entire thing has been a s@#!show. Her agent is an idiot, who she found out really doesn’t have as much as experience as she thought, the buyers agent is a condescending jerk, who she thinks is “guiding” her agent who doesn’t know better. Basically it started because they never notified my mom when they would go into the house, which is the first line in the contract, that she’s supposed to have prior notice, and it all just snowballed downhill from there. It’s almost closing, and I really want her to report both of them, but not sure to who. The buyer’s agent ended up showing up at her house unannounced, tried to mansplain everything to her (my mom has probably bought and sold more houses in 40 years than he ever has), then during the end of the yelling, told my mom “to give him a hug”, after he started physically moving closer. *vomit* Then later sent a non-apology email about her getting upset.

    So yeah, I really want her to write a report of everything that happened (again way more than I mentioned here), but I’m not sure who she should send it to, the brokers? State realtor board?

    1. CatCat*

      Well, if they violated any rules concerning their work as licensed professionals, I would say the licensing board. But it doesn’t sound like that’s necessarily the case?

      If they just kind of suck at their job, I’d go with Yelp.

    2. irene adler*

      Contact your state real estate dept. or similar that grants licenses to these agents. That should be your first step. Broker might not be too happy to find out that you contacted them, but hey, too bad.

      And, to their respective brokers. Clearly they both need better supervision (and training).

      Also, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

      Might even post something on Yelp too.

    3. Joielle*

      Send it to whoever licenses realtors in your state – probably the state’s department of commerce or something like that. They should have a procedure on their website for making complaints. Good luck!

    4. TCO*

      In addition to the licensing board you could complain to the branch manager-type person if they work for a larger brokerage. We had to do that once and it was helpful.

      1. Cat mom*

        Report to the state licensing board for sure. In most states this is taken seriously. It might be called a variety of things but searching on mystate + real estate + licensing should work. Check out the status of their license while you are on the site.

        If they are with a brokerage, call and ask to speak to a manager there. Or an owner or partner.

    5. Gumby*

      It’s too late now, but “The buyer’s agent ended up showing up at her house unannounced” merits a “You did not give notice nor did I invite you here, please leave now or I will consider you a trespasser.” And the door slammed in his face.

      The hug thing – ugh – I assume she headed that off at the pass but still – gross.

      1. valentine*

        She doesn’t have to let anyone in or even attend to the door. Is there an adult who can stay at her house until this is over? (It sounds like your mom can’t say no.)

        Realtors are bound by a code of ethics. I don’t know about agents.

    7. bunniferous*

      I would start with their broker in charge if they have one. You could also try the county Real Estate Association. If you have to bump it up then I would go to the State Board of Realtors.

      1. KAG*

        There’s also the NAR, the National Association of Realtors. I believe they’re the profession’s self-regulating body which promulgates the general code of ethics – I’m not sure what, if any, disciplinary authority they have, but I’d touch base with them as well.

  49. bunniferous*

    We had our company Christmas party already so this is as good a place as any to share this: We do the Dirty Santa type gift swap, and this year someone brought as their gift a *personal massager*.

    One of the bosses picked it.

  50. Laura H.*

    My last day at my current location. I’m gonna be a blubbering mess when I leave this evening.

    But I do hope my coworkers like their notes I’ll leave.

  51. Anon this time*

    My annual review is today and I’m asking for a promotion! I have the support of my immediate supervisors but it is nerve-wracking.

  52. Lost*

    Don’t have a specific question. Just needed to vent.

    I’ve been unemployed for about a year, but haven’t been applying to part-time jobs because who would hire someone who’d obviously continue looking for full time work and could leave at any time? I came across a part-time job that would be a great fit for my skills. It was posted in mid-September, but I figured since it was only for 8 hours a week it might have been hard to fill it. So I completed their hardcopy application form, and submitted it with my resume and a cover letter as required. About an hour later, I realized I’d forgotten to make a copy of the job posting for my records. I went to their employment page but the job posting had been removed.

    So they hadn’t been having trouble filling the position—it had already been filled and my application was their reminder to take the posting down. I feel so stupid and pathetic for wasting all that time applying to and getting my hopes up for a low paying, 8 hour/week job.

    1. Alexis Rose*

      Every application you fill out, every cover letter you write, every interview you may get is experience. Right now your job IS applying for jobs, it was not a waste of time at all, it was an investment in an opportunity for yourself.

      That said, job hunting SUCKS, especially when you are unemployed. You sound really dejected and frustrated and I absolutely know how that feels. Hang in there and make sure your self care is good. Wake up at a normal working time every weekday, shower, get dressed, go for walks. Get out of your place and take your laptop to a library or something free to apply for jobs. Good luck!

    2. Anna Held*

      I don’t think there’s a lot of logic to job searches. I mean, I’m sure there is, but it never seems to be anything that you can figure out on your end. I wouldn’t assume anything about their motivations.

      If it’s a good fit, I’d go ahead and apply for part-time. It’s always easier to find a job when you have one, plus you might brush up your skills. The company might well prefer to have someone good for a few months rather than have a position be open. There’s always a slim possibility that it could turn into full time. And plenty of people WANT part-time — they have young kids, or a spouse that earns enough, or family members who need care, or they just roll that way. I’m saying that if you don’t announce that you really need full time and will ditch them as soon as possible, they won’t necessarily know or care. And it’s not dishonest on your part as long as you don’t outright lie — how many people on these boards have been searching for a year or more? How many people leave after a couple months because the job wasn’t right? You have to do what’s best for you.

  53. Performance review for a great employee?*

    Hi all—I work in a large organization and have one direct report. She absolutely rocks, and I give her very specific, positive feedback all the time, in person, in passing, in recognizing her efforts in front of higher-ups, and via email. If I do a performance review at her 6-month point, which is imminent, what do I say? I have no constructive criticism to give. She’s the best employee I could have hoped for.

    For context, we are a team of two in a larger team. This position is structured so that there is a fixed salary, so no chance of raises for the term of the contract, but that also means that there’s no formal review process. I could skip it and no one would say anything.

    I’m thinking that maybe I should write up a review so that we have a paper trail we can rely on when the contract is up in a couple of years, because I’ll be lobbying hard to make the position permanent. I could put in all the positives, list the accomplishments, and set out some very achievable goals (this would be less formal but in line with our regular review process). A good idea? Any other suggestions for how to approach this?

    1. Catleesi*

      Could you frame it more as a discussion about her professional goals, and what you can do to support her development in other areas if she wants it?

      I’ve kind of been in the employee’s position (in that my boss was just like, everything is going great!) and having some kind of suggestion on areas to work on was always something I wanted. If it’s not something she currently does, maybe it could be new areas she could learn or grow into.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      In terms of constructive criticism, perhaps specifically state that you are very happy with her performance and have no concerns. However, you want to take the opportunity to suggest areas for further development for her, that would help her develop her career to the next level. Eg. recommendations of books or courses / training in her field. Suggestions that she be eligible for your organization’s training courses (I did a contract once where I was able to access all the corporation’s online training). Maybe a suggestion that she take up a volunteer position that would allow her to learn budget management, which would be a benefit to her future, more senior roles.

      1. Performance review for a great employee?*

        Thank you Catleesi and learnthehardway! I appreciate the employee’s perspective and the suggestions very much.

  54. Drax*

    My company is in a bad way – bad way like if we don’t get this massive order in January we won’t make it to spring. I have previously been let go, I’ve quit jobs etc etc but I’ve never been in a situation like this where a company is a second away from going under. The last time this company went under (whole other barrel of monkeys, but I work for round 2 of that company less then 2 years old) the ‘notice’ was the boss on the intercom saying “Pack up, we’re done here” so I’m expecting it would go the same way this round. I’ve decided I’m going to ride it out as the experience I get here is worth the risk, but I also don’t want to be up the creek without a paddle in 3 months.

    My question is this: what do you wish you would have done in this situation. Are there things you would have saved, personal finance things you would have done etc etc. I know there are lots of folks who’ve been in this situation and I’m really just looking for advice on what I should be doing personally and professionally during the storm.

    1. Four lights*

      Saving money and cutting back on spending now is a big one.
      You should work on your resume and cover letter so those will be good to go. You could start looking at the job market and maybe even applying if something really good comes up (you can always say no).

      1. Kes*

        Agreed, start saving now and even if you don’t want to start applying now, get ready so you can start applying right away when you need to, and start looking around to see what kind of jobs are available.

    3. TCO*

      Take care of any medical care, routine dental cleanings, etc. that your insurance might cover better now.

      Connect with colleagues and references you haven’t been in touch with for a while (a “happy New Year’s” note is a great excuse to connect).

      In addition to cutting back on expenses if needed, think about other ways you can manage your cash flow. If you pay property taxes in lump sums at set times of year, can you change how you pay it? Do you want to pre-pay any expenses now? Would you want to use your unemployment time to shop around for car insurance or do any other tasks that could potentially save you money?

    4. Anna Held*

      Look around your office and go through your computer and files. Are there any personal items you’d miss if the place were shuttered suddenly? Take them home. Any personal documents on the computer? Get them off and delete them. Any files you’d like to save — performance evaluations, work projects you’re proud of and might need as a sample? Copy them digitally and in hard copy. Basically, act like you won’t have access ever again. You might not.

    5. Madge*

      If you’re not a budgeter, now is a good time to start. Figure out how little you can live on and make easy cuts now and identify other things you can cut when the time comes. This is going to be a stressful time so you don’t want to go full austerity just yet, but it helps to have the stuff already identified and ready to implement. Although, if you can spend as though you don’t have a job, do it and identify a fun thing you’ll do with your savings if your employer pulls through. If you’re in the US, look at health insurance and figure out the cost of alternatives to COBRA. And be aware of your 401k balances, making sure deposits are made on time. Stay on top of any outstanding expense or medical reimbursements. De-personalize your computer and collect any portfolio information now. Also identify all your personal belongings and take home anything that won’t be easy to carry. You could also stash a few bags in your desk or car in case there aren’t any boxes available on closing day. You could also do a quick estimate of your taxes under the new rules and make an additional payment now if you think you’ll end up owing money. Check out the rules for filing unemployment and see if any of your state’s rules for laying people off apply to you. And what resources does your area have for job hunters and networking? Where I live, several churches have job hunting support groups and there used to be a weekly networking event at a local restaurant. When I’m job hunting I like to have a few cheat sheets: one with resume pieces for customized resumes and same for cover letters, a complete list of everything I’ve accomplished or done in that job, a list of people in my network, and a complete list of all my employers and the other info usually requested in an application. You could also identify the job boards that you’ll use, look around for target employers in your area, and figure out what you’re looking for.

    6. Gumby*

      Just as a general rule, I try to keep 1 year’s worth of living expenses in my emergency account. That’s more than most people suggest (usually they say 6 months) but it certainly gives me peace of mind. I know it’s a huge luxury to be able to save that much, but I recommend it to anyone who can. Beyond the fact that it allowed me to survive my last bout of long-term unemployment it also made yucky days at work more bearable. There’s just something about the idea that if I wanted to throw in the towel I totally could w/o being left homeless makes dealing w/ job annoyances easier because it is my choice and not something I am forced to do for survival.

      Actionable advice for right now? Planning. Prepare a hit list of subscriptions / monthly expenses you’ll cancel or downgrade if needed in the future, or do it now if it seems reasonable. Scope out temp agencies and/or recruiters or whatever resources you’d access for a job search if the need arises. If you might need to change your living situation – what does the landscape look like? Basically, make it so that if your company does fold you can implement the plan rather than be upset and panic.

      My company isn’t in as precarious a situation as it sounds like yours is, but I definitely have a “if I lose this job I will spend 2 – 3 months tops looking at other jobs in this (very high COL) area before moving closer to family (in a slightly-lower COL area) and job searching there” plan shuffling around in the back of my mind.

    7. Tabby Baltimore*

      A previous AAM post covered some of what you’re asking about: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/what-you-need-to-do-before-you-quit-your-job.html
      After reading it, go to the comments section for additional informative posts from Bob (at 3:00pm, 3:08pm and 3:16pm), Red Reader (1:08pm and 2:04pm), and Lemon Zinger, along with a thread that starts with jm (at 1:20pm) that includes Kyrielle, Joan Callamezo and Elizabeth West. Also look at posts from bettyboop (2:20pm), Venus Supreme (2:47pm) and Bob again at 3:30pm, also Anonymous Educator (8:52pm), evilintraining (1:23pm), Jerry Vandesic (1:46pm), Hotstreak (1:59pm), pbnj (2:00pm), Stranger than fiction (3:52pm), Crazy Canuck (6:50pm), and NicoleK (11:29pm). Let us know how things went for you. Wishing you all the best.

    8. ..Kat..*

      With companies like this, you could find they have closed because the doors are locked. Take home anything you don’t want to lose.

    9. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Maybe make sure you have contact details for colleagues you’d like to keep in touch with?

  55. Sara M*

    Hey grad students. I’ve heard grad school really sucks, but I’m not clear why. Will you tell me?

    For context, I went to a really tough private liberal arts college, which I liked, but by senior year I was just sick of studying and I couldn’t see a career that I needed grad school for.

    What’s so awful about grad school? Thanks.

    1. merp*

      Seems to depend hugely on the program based on folks I’ve talked to, but I did a professional-oriented program and my main stress was the many, many demands on my time. Undergrad was like that too, to a degree, but grad school was much worse. It was exhausting taking classes on top of working and pursuing every other internship that came our way because it might be the one that got me a job later. So I (and everyone I knew) took a full load of classes and worked 2 jobs and tried to fit in extracurriculars and networking that would make getting a job easier once we graduated. Plus the pay for those 2 jobs sucked. I couldn’t have done it for more than the 2 years.

      1. AnonEmu*

        I finished a PhD this year and basically it’s like merp said – the lack of time and high stress – classes, research, teaching, and depending on the department, pressure and department politics as well. Some departments have simmering feuds between professors and that can carryover into impacting grad students. The pay is also pretty abysmal and doesn’t tend to match cost of living in a lot of areas. I went to grad school at a really good school but because CA prices, rent + utilities was 2/3 of my paycheck (to be fair, I lived by myself due to severe food allergies, I knew people who had 3-6 roommates to help save money), but I was also lucky enough to have some sort of TAing/ research assistantship the whole time. If you’re doing classes/research and an unrelated job at the same time, it’s even harder. Good PIs will make sure you have a semblance of work-life balance, but that’s not always the case. I survived because I had good advisors, and a strong support network of friends, and I still needed to see a therapist for help with some stuff (which is a good thing to do! Especially if they’re also a trained life coach like mine was)

    2. Tara S.*

      People have very different experiences! I was reminded of that last night when I found out one of my grad school classmates didn’t pass her capstone. She ran into issues with her advisers (one unhelpful, the other made her cry), had trouble with the project. Data was good, but she couldn’t get the lit review off the ground and it hurt her analysis. She works full time (like most of us), and was losing sleep and miserable. I also found out another student had such a bad time with his adviser for his capstone that the DEAN got dragged in and the Associate Dean ended up taking over as the guy’s adviser. So things can go bad because the workload is too hard, or your teachers are terrible. More generally, people complain about how they have no time outside of work. If you have a partner or kids, this stress increases because you have other obligations.

      However. I just finished grad school while working full-time, and it was…really not bad. I had a mix of good and bad teachers, and I did become fairly hermit-y. But the classes–well they really weren’t that hard, just a lot of work. I’m lucky that because of my background, school was always fairly easy for me (not “I don’t have to study” easy, but other than math, I never felt like I was smashing my head against something in frustration), so that factors in. Writing was always my best subject, and grad school is a ton of writing, so that helped too. And that adviser who made my friend cry? She was my adviser too, and she was never anything less than helpful to me. All this to say, if you really liked the school part of undergrad, grad school may not be too hard for you, other than being a lot of work. Think hard about why you want a Masters before you spend a lot of money (will it actually help your career? or are you just not sure of your life, which happens A LOT). Good luck!

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        I agree, personally I did not find grad school any more difficult emotionally than college, and in both cases I was working part time. For people working full time, night school is a real drain just on the amount of energy they had to do anything else. I do think PhD programs can have unique bullcrap around politics and advisor personalities – cannot comment on that because I didn’t do PhD.

    3. Holly*

      Are you considering grad school or just curious? Because if you were sick of studying by your senior year of college, and don’t know if you need grad school for a prospective career, then you already know it’s not going to be right for you.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      In a master’s program, the challenge is going from being a big fish in a small pond / being the darling of the undergrad department, to being just another entry-level student among a sea of other highly qualified new students starting grad school. That is very disconcerting and can be demoralizing. Suddenly, you go from being the star to someone who has to prove themselves all over again, and the competition level has just ramped up by a factor of 10.

      Then the real challenge comes when you are the expert in your field, and nobody else knows what you know – but that’s usually at PhD level. To have a valid thesis, you have to be adding net new knowledge to the sum of human information.

      2. learnedthehardway*

        Also, it really does depend on having a good graduate advisor / mentor / thesis advisor. And you often end up paired with someone before you really know them well. And, you’re much more dependent on that individual than you were on undergrad profs – if you hated an undergrad prof, you can usually avoid them. And unlike a bad manager, you can’t just up and leave for a new program like you would look for a new job.

        It really, really pays off to do your research and find out what the proposed graduate thesis advisor is like. They might be a big name, but only let you do scut work. Or they might promise they’ll get you published, but you might find out there is a stack of unpublished articles they’ve never paid attention to (that happened to a friend of a friend). Or, you find out that they’re totally disengaged or even senile (happened to someone I know whose thesis advisor forgot who they were 2 years into their thesis and kept mixing them up with someone else). Or, maybe they sleep with their students and only pay attention to the one they’re sleeping with (which is bad for everyone, and if you do well with them, will lead to people questioning why, even if you didn’t have a relationship with them.) Or, maybe they’re racist/misogynistic/classist/ablest.

        If you can, not only meet your proposed advisor, but contact previous students who are now working and independent of that person to get their perspective.

    5. Minerva McGonagall*

      Grad school kinda sucked for me because I was bored and my classes were too easy. But I was at a school with a national/international reputation for being really difficult…so…I don’t know. I also would have much rather been in a different program, but did the other one for career reasons (which worked, and I liked, but still). I also worked full time and had in person classes, which honestly was the worst. I couldn’t do the online class if there was an on-campus version if I wanted my employer to pay for it. I love school and I love learning so it wasn’t terrible and I’ll be doing it again, but it just…wasn’t the same as undergrad.

    6. Ranon*

      I also did a professional program, which I actually really enjoyed. But I did it after a few years in the working world, it was (mostly) necessary for me to continue to develop in my profession, and I had enough experience that I was able to choose a program that not only ticked the legal boxes I needed but also focused on elements within my profession that I was interested in studying. I did it like a job- worked regular if long hours, didn’t stay up all night, and got through it in the 2 and a quarter years the program lasted.

      My friends and family in academic graduate programs had very different experiences. Their progression through their program was almost completely dependent on their advisor, their advisors were various levels of incompetent at being advisors even if they were good researchers, and since most of them were doctoral candidates it took so much longer for them to complete their degrees. Plus there’s that “doing it for knowledge/ devotion” thing that leads itself to unreasonable expectations all around. But the placing your future in the hands of one person seems like the worst bit.

    7. Janeitenoir*

      Seconding the comments about big fish/small pond transition to just another first year. I am finishing up my MLIS via online long-distance while working full time, and it was pretty intimidating at first. After a while, everyone evens out or you learn to ignore the imposter syndrome most of the time.

      Like Tara S., my work wasn’t actually too hard, there was just a lot of it, and now that I’ve submitted my capstone, I’m realizing how much time I’ve gotten back. It’s been much better for my mental health, which took a nosedive during the last 1.5 years. I would actually caution anyone, if they have mental health issues they’re dealing with, to make sure they’re really sure about grad school and that they have a support system in place before pursuing it. The combined stress of my job, a pair of nasty semesters, a relationship (even though that is great and healthy), and roommate issues led to several anxiety breakdowns and the development of OCD, which I’m now recovering from a year later. At least one other friend of mine is also dealing with some long-term anxiety issues that her grad school exacerbated, and the few friends I made through the program had issues too – even though the program itself was fine. I’ve also made great connections personally and professionally, so there were benefits in the end.

    8. Lora*

      It depends on the course of study and the program and the people running the program and all kinds of things.

      Many high-ranked PhD programs I looked at, and one I was briefly in, were basically like junior high with pipettors. Lots of pettiness, lots of politics and misbehavior – so much so that it really hinders the actual work you’re supposed to be doing, the stated goals of your grant funding, etc. Faculty were just as bad as the students, even though they were all nearly retirement age. Lots of sexual harassment. LOTS. It was 1990s – early 2000s but I have exactly zero hope that any of that has changed one bit.

      A few programs and PIs that were more closely aligned with industry funding were much more professional; however there was still considerable infighting between political factions of the departments, to the point of affecting which professors would get which incoming students and which students had their theses approved quickly and which were kept around for years on end after fulfilling the actual degree requirements.

    9. SciProf*

      Grad school experiences are very field-dependent, degree-dependent, and even university-dependent. But I had a good experience with grad school in the sciences.

      A course-based Master’s program usually isn’t all that different from undergrad. The material may be more challenging, and you may be expected to have a higher level of understanding (more analyzing and less memorizing). It’s also more likely that you’re at a stage in life where you have other responsibilities (job, family, etc.), which can add stress.

      A thesis-based Master’s or a Ph.D. is a completely different ball game. You’ll probably still have to take some classes, but your primary responsibility is research. Research can be a huge adjustment – you’re learning from the top scholarship in your field instead of from a textbook, and things inherently don’t work most of the time. It’s also far more independence and managing your own deadlines than most undergrads are used to, so it can be easy to get stuck in procrastinating and binge-working. Too many professors have zero management training and wind up having all sorts of bad boss behavior, which can definitely add a lot of stress. Research can still be very rewarding in the right environment if it’s a good fit for you personally, but it’s not for everyone.

    10. CheeryO*

      Just my experience from an M.S. program in an engineering discipline, but the classes were SO much more difficult than even my highest-level undergrad classes. It’s not just the material, but the expectation level – this will sound terrible, but you lose the bottom 75% of the curve from undergrad, and those were the people who slowed the pace, lowered the class averages, and kept things easy-ish for the best students. I went from just under a 4.0 to barely being able to comprehend the material and failing open book tests. It was just crazy.

      On top of the actual coursework, I was working part-time as a TA, which sucked up more energy than it should have. And I did a course-only Master’s, so at the end of it all, I had to study for and take a comprehensive oral exam, which was one of the worst experiences of my life.

      I had grad school entirely paid for between the T.A. position and a grant, and I would NOT do it again if I had to go back. YMMV – obviously grad school is more necessary in some fields.

    11. 653-CXK*

      My experience in grad school was this: I lasted one semester and never went back.

      The school I attended was well-known, but their financial services department was disorganized, for lack of better words. After many letters and failing grades I had enough – I decided to withdraw from the university.

    12. Jules the 3rd*

      I did an MBA with a Supply Chain concentration, and I loved it. I was lucky enough that I could do it full-time, with a scholarship, part-time job and a couple of smallish loans to pay the bills (under 20K). It did require a lot of hours, but I learned a lot, getting both ‘big picture’ views and practical experience that matches up to about 10 years work experience. In undergrad, I never knew supply chain existed, and it is so very much the right field for me.

      My understanding is that grad school is best if you have a passion for a field where grad degrees are the basic requirements (eg, psychology), or if you want to switch fields.

    13. Snow Drift*

      Group work, especially if you go back to school when you’re older and have a larger-scope job. I was pushing 40 and doing large-scale group projects with 23-year-olds, who were coasting in their low-responsibility “first” jobs and couldn’t fathom why I needed notice to juggle everything. They’d randomly decide to go to happy hour and work on the presentation; I’d have to e-mail that I was currently in another state traveling for work. Etc.

    14. epi*

      Hi! I’m a PhD candidate in epidemiology. I used to want to be a historian.

      Some things that suck about grad school are really field dependent. I would actually say that, for me, grad school in public health does not suck. Grad school in history kind of sucked.

      The job market for people with PhDs is pretty bad in a lot of fields, and in general I would say it’s worse if you are really wedded to the idea of staying in academia and becoming a professor. Many people starting grad school do have that as their first choice! In many fields and in many schools however, you will encounter the attitude that becoming a professor is the best outcome a PhD student can have, and that others are settling or didn’t make it. So many people find themselves reconsidering, or just trying to come up with a realistic Plan B, over the course of their program, but feel there is too much stigma for them to be honest about it or get useful advice. Also, the job market just weighs on people while going to so much effort. The prospect of competition in the future can poison the otherwise nice relationships you might form with faculty and other students.

      Grad school often involves doing a lot of hard work and thinking, pretty much all alone. That background sense of competition can make it hard to get a realistic sense that this is hard for everyone, and create a feeling that whatever others are getting done, it’s probably more and better. The work set-up will vary a lot by field, of course. As a baby historian I worked all alone except for seminar classes. As a public health student I work on more collaborative projects, but they all happen to be ones on which I am the only student or the only long-term student. So I know lots of faculty and staff, few peers. It’s hard for even normally very organized and responsible people to feel like they are doing great at all their work when the deadlines are all soft, or set by you, or moving around depending what is urgent at the time. Most people will go through a period where they really do need to pull up their socks a bit, but also, it’s easy to feel like you’re slacking all the time. There is always more you could be doing.

      Academia is a unique work culture. In my experience, even in pretty open fields like public health, programs are not always good at explaining all the social and professional norms that may be alien to you. You pretty much need to get comfortable asking your advisor or *someone* questions about expectations that will make you feel dumb. And if it’s someone you trust enough to ask, you will really, really want them to think you are smart.

      There is not enough accountability in academia. Check the news– many recent #MeToo stories are about professors and administrators. As a grad student doing a thesis or dissertation, you need to have a rapport with your advisor. They are your mentor, the person who introduces you to other people who can help you, the chair of your dissertation committee (they decide when you are done researching & can graduate), and they may be your boss on your paid research or teaching assistant work too. Your research will be something related to theirs, otherwise they couldn’t really advise you intelligently. If you have problems with them so severe that you want to switch advisors, you could need to switch topics and end up throwing away your work.

      In general I would say, don’t go to grad school unless you are confident that you need it for your ideal career, and can think of a plan B and plan C that it would still be useful for. Whether you should expect to find funding for a masters degree really depends on the field, but don’t go to a PhD program without funding ever. I think many people go in thinking, they are really smart and hardworking, they’ve handled a tough undergrad, their outcomes will be good. But everyone there is smart and hardworking. Or they think it will be OK because they’d accept a job at a small school or a 2-year school, and don’t understand that those are competitive too! Evaluate the choice to go to grad school assuming that you will have a pretty average outcome. Meaning you might not make it into a real (read: non-adjunct) academic job at all. Or you might decide you want to take a lesser credential and leave early.

      1. In the Academy*

        I never had a problem with graduate school (my program did not require a thesis), but a friend of mine said she had to do things like house-sit or pet-sit for her advisor(s) and basically be an unpaid dogsbody or servant for the professors.

      2. curly sue*

        I have what is pretty much an ideal setup for graduate school, and I’m about six months (help!) from defending my PhD. I’ve got a stable marriage with a partner whose preference is to have a low-stress job and do more of the childcare, I’ve got an excellent rapport with my supervisors and my committee generally agrees on things, I still love my topic, I’ve run into some timing and access issues with some of the research but nothing that has derailed the process to any great extent, I’ve got good funding, and I’m teaching in my dream department while I do it all.

        And I’ve still had a handful of “this is too much, I’m not smart enough for any of this” breakdowns on my partner’s shoulder.

        Part of it is organization, but most of it is the pressure of the sheer quantity of work – between teaching, marking and my own work, I’m hitting probably about 80 hours a week minimum, and I’m still aggressively carving out time to spend with my family. (Friends will see me in person when I resurface in the summer, but not much before then.) Every meeting I go to, I leave with another long list of things that I need to read / need to think about / need to rewrite, and I’ve got post-doc applications and grants and so on to start setting next year in motion while still juggling all of the right-now emergencies. All the scheduling is on me – I’m in a department with minimal admin support because of its nature – and there are a million things to do there on top of the actual work.

        (“Why don’t you start working on that other paper in your down-time?” my supervisor blithely suggested, and I just about strangled him.)

        I’ve read hundreds of books, sat up to my elbows in boxes of artifacts for months, and written almost 120,000 words in the past couple of years on this beast, sat through the utter hell of oral comps, and now I’m staring down the barrel of a public defense / inquisition into what I’ve been doing with the last four years of my life.

        I love what I do and I believe in my work, but man — even when everything lines up exactly right, it is stressful.

    15. H.C.*

      I enjoyed my professional Master’s program – but I was also juggling a full-time workload at the time (most of the grad school classes are mostly nighttime), so it was definitely draining physically, mentally & socially (barely had time/energy to keep up with friends & family during that time.) That being said, I have no regrets doing that program – though in hindsight I might have stretched it out from 2 years of full course loads to 3-4 years as a part-time student.

    16. Maya Elena*

      Go and find the site “100 reasons not to go to graduate school [in the humanities ans social sciencesГ” and consider these reasons (which apply to lesser extents in STEM. Consider those (really 10 ish) reasons carefully.

    17. ugh, phd*

      In addition to all the reasons listed here (the stress, the low wages, the time demands, the petty competitiveness), the crippling self doubt and imposter syndrome can really get you down. I (successfully!) defended my PhD dissertation this week, and afterwards, in my last ever meeting with my advisor, he told me my dissertation isn’t very good. Not a very great confidence boost as I embark on my job search as a newly-minted PhD, but that sort of confidence smack-down is par for the course.

  56. MuseumChick*

    More of a vent than seeking advice. I’m more angry than I’ve ever been at any job. I was hired to be an expert in a Specific Thing. Two years in and I’m still being told Specific Thing is not a priority and doing a lot of things that are not my job. I can handle that, it’s annoying but I can handle it. Now something has happened that has driving me up a wall.

    When you donate something to a museum it is for life. The museum owns it full stop and will not give it back barring some extreme circumstance that are EXTREMELY limited. Like, if we find out the object was stolen. Or cases of repatriation. We had an object donated when I first started here, I handle all object donation so I go through all the necessary steps and complete all the paper work. For some reason Big Boss decided that she doesn’t like this object and wants to return it to the donor. I go through all the reasons that is a TERRIBLE idea and is very much not done. She seemed to accept my answer. Until today. Two years later. I get a email from a higher ups (not the Big Boss) basically say “Fergus Ferguson is coming next week to pick up that thing he donated.” I responded, explain once again why we should not do this. The respose I got was basically “To bad, the decision has been made.”

    I’m angry because one of the reasons I was hired was to bring professional standards to their museum collection but every time it’s even slightly inconvenient for them I am ignored.

    1. WomanOfMystery*

      I sympathize sooo much. The two most aggravating things in the collections world are returning artifacts or when people try to donate thing you Do. Not. Want., but your ED is a people-pleaser and will never say no. Why have standards if you’re not going to follow them?!?

    2. MuseAnne*

      Ugh. I once had to return something that was “accidentally donated” years before the return request. I did it with professional protest and documentation.

      Sometimes, when things are rough, you just have to focus on what you can control. It’s the thing that worked for me with my previous boss. They were a terrible manager and it would take a lot to make me work for them again.

    3. Observer*

      That’s beyond frustrating. But it also sounds like a case of “Your job stinks and is not going to change.” Is there anything about this job that’s worth staying for? If not, start looking. It may take a while, but you have choice right now, because you do have this job.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      How does that even work with the IRS tax deduction the donor took back when the museum accepted the object?

  57. Mary Dempster*

    Should I ask my manager what her facial expression meant?

    Context: I’m a sales assistant, and they were hiring for a new sales development role. I talked to HR and my manager about applying, and they all agreed. I met with HR & my manager to hear more about the position, but with what they’re looking for + 50% travel, it wasn’t doable for our family, so I made the decision to stay in my same role, and take my hat out of the ring.

    I let her know this yesterday, in person. Her face was odd – I could not tell if it was disappointment, or relief, or confusion. She asked why, and I mentioned the travel was too much, so she just said we should sit down in January to find out what the best path is for me here at the company. All sounded fine, but I’d really like to know – was she disappointed or relieved(as I don’t have much experience, and she’s very nice and I can see her being worried telling me that they found someone with more experience, though I’m fine with that).

    We’re fairly close-ish, as in, we’d for sure hang out if she weren’t my boss, we’re the same age, similar interests, etc., but we keep it professional, though the banter around our office is often off-color.

    TL;DR Can I ask my manager what she was feeling (per her odd facial expression) when I told her I’d like to pull my name from consideration?

    1. Lumen*

      I wouldn’t. For all you know she was thinking about something else, or really did not mean for her face to reveal her emotions, or was holding in a fart. Asking will come across as invasive and insecure. Moreover, it doesn’t really affect you/isn’t your business. If she wanted to be more expressive and let you know, she would have.

    2. Drax*

      I think as far as touching base that she wasn’t disappointed may be okay, but not really asking if she was relieved. But really, I’d just focus on figuring out what path you want in the company for the January discussion

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I wouldn’t ask about facial expression. She’s already said that you should sit down in January to discuss your career path. That’s what you need and asking about a facial expression would just be weird.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I wouldn’t. You’ll be having a discussion in January, so you might get some insight at that time, but for now, please do not ask anyone about their face. In most cases, I advise that you have to go with the information you have, i.e., go with what she said. She may have been trying to stop herself from conveying one thing or another. She might have been holding back a sneeze. She might have had something in her eye. She might have been trying to prevent you from seeing her disappointment/relief/anger/satisfaction/whatever. At the end of the day, what she was feeling at the time doesn’t matter; you said you had decided not to pursue the position, she asked why, you told her, she suggested you talk about your future come January.

    5. Rey*

      I would phrase it as, “You seemed surprised last week when I said I wouldn’t be applying for the new sales development role. Do you have some concerns? I would appreciate your feedback on this.” I would avoid saying it was because of her face, because this is something that women get policed on a lot.

    6. fposte*

      I think it’s a little out of step to ask somebody what they were feeling or what their face meant–what they were feeling is pretty much their business, after all. If there’s something actionable, that would change what you do, you could frame the question that way; it sounds like it’ll all be discussed at this January meeting anyway, so you might as well be prepared. But “How do you think the decision about the sales development position will affect my growth here?” type questions, not questions about feelings and faces.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Maybe frame it as pointing out that you’d have stayed in the running if the travel weren’t so large a % of time. They’d never cut that back for the right persin, would they?

  58. Gumption*

    What are the best/worst reasons you or a coworker have had to boycott or “choose to not attend” a holiday meal?

    My coworker? She brought in her toddler one year, in a new dress and everything. Only child there. The 2nd in command of our office pointedly told her that children were not welcome. She was offended so now she boycotts the annual holiday meal.

    (Personally, if it’s not the children’s party and if there’s grownups and booze, the toddler indeed didn’t belong!)

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      That is the response that a (third, not close at all) cousin had when her carload of kids weren’t invited to our wedding. It was open booze, on a cruise ship, and we didn’t have the space (in essence, if we invited everyone’s kids, we would have nearly doubled our guest count). She wrote in her kids’ names on the RSVP, and wrote a note basically saying that we must just not care enough to remember her kids’ names and therefore they’re not going. Uh, okay?

      1. Gumby*

        Huh? If someone wanted to invite the whole family they still would not have written out all the kids names – they would just say “The Smith Family” so that is a ridiculous stance to take anyway. I have 4 siblings; I’m not sure the post office would be able to deliver an invitation that was addressed to all of us by name.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          The best part was that on the RSVP slip, we put ___ of (total number invited). So they just had to fill in the number that would go. The cousin plus the spouse was invited, so we put __ of 2…she scratched out the 2 and wrote in 0 of 6. But we wouldn’t have written in every person’s name anyway!

    2. Rey*

      Not at work, but I am still debating about a holiday party tonight for a family social group because the planning committee has been very forceful that the dress code is “nicer-than-jeans” (for an event that includes children). And yesterday, they added in an ugly Christmas sweater contest. So I’m supposed to wear nice slacks or a skirt with an ugly Christmas sweater? Really y’all?

    3. Marge Gunderson*

      Worst: had some co-workers decide to boycott the holiday party because they got word the raffle prizes wouldn’t be as good as last year’s. I couldn’t go for other reasons but those who did attend said that it made the raffle pool really small so everyone won multiple things from the raffle and the prizes were still really good.

    4. CheeryO*

      There’s always drama at my employer over the menu offerings for the holiday lunch (we’re state government, so people want their $15 to go towards ONLY the food that they want to eat, and nothing else!). There are always people who boycott over the food choices, even though it always ends up being varied and tasty. Can’t please everyone!

    5. Maggie May*

      I have not been attending some all hands as they put them downtown (I live in a top 10 city in America) at 8AM on weekdays.

      I would have to leave my house at 7:20 to get there. That is before I usually even wake up. (I live 5 minutes from work).

    6. valentine*

      Booze should not equal child endangerment. Your coworker’s right to be offended (unless she was told before bringing the child, but doubly if she was told while the well-dressed child was right there, ready to party down).

  59. Here and there and everywhere*

    If your company is requiring you to take a drug test in order to go from temp to perm and you’re hourly, do they have to give you paid time off in order to do it? This is in California, maybe I could use my paid sick leave? How should I approach my manager about it? We’re swamped with work BTW.

    1. Ali G*

      I would think they would have you do it on the clock and pay you for it. Granted, I was salaried, but at my last job they did surprise drug tests. You got and email, a location to report to, and you were required to report there within 2 hours or you got fired. Hourly employees at our industrial locations had the same policy. All the tests were done during working hours.

    2. OperaArt*

      IANAL, so take this for what it’s worth…
      I believe they have to pay you just as if you were at work. It’s part of your job— a very short term job assignment. So it’s not paid time off, it’s work time.

  60. Où est la bibliothèque?*

    How do you handle a working relationship at a new job when your boss lied to your face in the interview? I specifically asked about how collaborative the organization was (I asked because working around siloes has been a nightmare for me in the past) and got a lot of glowing positivity about interdepartmental communication, camaraderie and cooperation from my new boss and the higher-ups who interviewed me.

    Well…it turns out that this is the most siloed, uncooperative, uncommunicative office I’ve ever seen, and it’s going to be by far the #1 challenge to doing my job. That’s a recognized fact–as in, people have actually said “the hardest part is going to be getting Other Department to give you what you need or not create actual competing projects.” I’m having a hard time both with that challenge (again, one of my least favorite aspects of a job) and the fact that several people knowingly led me to believe the opposite when I specifically asked about it.

    1. SheetMaskSenora*

      You have to ask yourself how much of that bait-and-switch is worth leaving the new job for. And if it’s a definite yes, start looking for another job immediately. Or possibly reach out to some other job offers you turned down for this one. Also, the less amount of time between jobs the better so you can leave this new job off your resume.
      Good Luck.

      1. AnonEmu*

        Seconding this. If this is a dealbreaker, start hunting ASAP because you never know how long it could take to find something new, and being in situations like that tends to lead to burnout in a hurry. Make sure to take time for mental self-care, too. Best of luck!

    2. Alianora*

      Honestly, I would probably be looking for a new job in that case.

      As for handling the working relationship in the meantime, I always default to being very matter-of-fact and work-oriented if I’m having a hard time getting along with someone. In this case, I also wouldn’t really trust their judgment anymore.

  61. What’s with Today, today*

    Update on my small town government corruption story!

    The story went live mid-week with two high level city officials going on the record. It brought to light many interesting goings on at city hall, one of the two, very high on the org chart, said “secrets are well kept at city hall.” ON THE RECORD. An elected official then stepped forward to share with me also.

    The story has ultimately led to two follow ups and a massive uproar in town. More follow ups to come.

    The commission met last night. A third high ranking city official, one I did not interview, stood up with his wife at his side and abruptly resigned (using that word, though he’s totally could say retire). He did it in protest of the way they’ve been treated. He agreed with the three people I spoke of earlier. I’m interviewing him today. He told me he wanted to shock some sense into them.

    Ultimately, I wasn’t able to stop what was going to happen from happening, but because of my reporting it happened with our citizens aware and it happened in the light, not behind closed doors and through secret emails.

    I slept well last night.

  62. Stephanie*

    We just had a layoff meeting update (I work for a household name company that has been in the news for massive layoffs). I think I’m ok for now (for at least the next six months), but morale is low. They brought in one of the big consulting firms–I think everyone’s doing their best to keep a straight face with all the euphemisms the consultants have created.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I tend to have a dark sense of humor, so grain of salt and all that, but please consider creating a layoff jargon bingo card. It will help you pass the time.

      1. Stephanie*

        I was using the Bain/McKinsey/BCG jargon jokingly when talking to a non-work friend about all this and he was like “Please stop saying that. I just can’t take it anymore–it sounds so ridiculous.”

        But this is a good idea!

    3. Jean (just Jean)*

      Damn. I remember hearing one of those stories on NPR and thinking “I hope this won’t be a problem for Stephanie.”

      On the bright side, you are okay for the next six months, and you have people here cheering for you and able and willing to offer boatloads of good advice. (Summary: take care of yourself, size up your total situation, make plans for whatever is within your control, think positive thoughts, be proactive, and keep on going.)

      Seeing you handle past transitions gives me faith that you’ll make things okay in the future no matter what happens. But I’m sorry that this challenge is in your neighborhood.

  63. Stay-at-home medievalist*

    My work gives us some money to spend each year on professional development, enough for 2-3 books. I always choose in a rush at the end of the year, so I wanted to think ahead for 2019.
    What are some professional development books you’ve gotten something out of?
    I tend to get a mix of industry-specific ones (code, software testing) and general work skills ones. I got a few decent actionable steps from “Getting things done” and have really enjoyed “Thinking fast and slow” so far.

    4. Dr. Doll*

      “Thanks for the Feedback” is the best single general topic prof dev book I have ever come across.

  64. C in the Hood*

    My daughter will be graduating with a BS in Marine Biology this spring and is worried about finding a job. She’s gone to a career fair, which was marginally helpful & I’ve given her some tips on trying to find positions (ie looking at the “careers” section of various websites in the field), but this field is so far out of my wheelhouse (which is business/office work), that I’m not familiar with the best places for her to work.

    Is there anyone out there who might be in or linked to Marine Bio that might have some good leads?

    1. irene adler*

      Try finding some professional organizations for Marine Bio. Then get in touch and ask for some mentoring/job leads.
      Or some trade magazines in same. They will have websites with links to professional organizations.
      Ask the profs in Marine Bio where to look for jobs.
      Look into Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, CA. They have a website -incl. job listings.

    2. Alexis Rose*

      I have a marine bio degree, I also went on and did a masters. There are so so so so many paths that degree can take you in, so its not a one-size-fits all conversation at all. Some suggestions: does her university have a career centre? can any of her professors put her in touch with someone in the field? Does she know of any students who are a few years older than she is that have navigated the first few years out of university that she can reach out to and ask to take for coffee? I also volunteered for non-profits to get some experience, and ultimately ended up working for the federal government in a slightly different role than I thought I would have, but I do get to talk about fish every day!

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      Unfortunately, Marine biology is one of those fields where jobs and few and far between (and suck) unless you have at least a master’s (but really a PhD is necessary), which is something no one tells you until its too late. Maine biology is definitely one of those fields where you need a lot of connections to get a job, and generally that means unpaid internships in expensive locations. She can look for jobs as lab techs in various marine biology labs (check all the NOAA offices, they hire contractors to do all the grunt work) or work as an observer on board fishing vessels. I know the Alaska, Hawaii , and Miami NOAA offices have those programs. They typically pay pretty poorly and the working conditions suck, especially for a woman, lots of sexism, pretty dangerous, etc. But otherwise, she needs to go to grad school in order to get a job that will pay the bills. Typical salaries for marine biology are BS: ~30k a year, master’s level ~45k a year, and PhD ~65k a year. Although once you reach a PhD your income can grow. The only way to progress in your career in marine biology is to get additional degrees.

      Source: I’m a PhD in marine biology.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        My old room mate has a BA in marine biology, she works for the state government’s environmental division. Mostly testing water quality, doing flora / fauna surveys and monitoring quality problem abatement / construction projects.

    4. Shark Whisperer*

      I’m a marine biologist! It really depends on what kind of marine bio work she wants to do. My work is more on the conservation biology side of things. I have spend most of my career working for non-profits and aquariums, but I now work for the federal government. But there is so much you can do with marine bio. What are her other interests? Does she like writing? Does she want to do field work? Does she want to do education? Or research?

      A great place for her to start looking for jobs is the job board on Seven Seas Media. They post a really wide swatch of marine science gigs.

      1. Shark Whisperer*

        I’ll also add that I only have a bachelors and I make about ~65k a year, but I do more science communications than actual science

    5. MeganK*

      I have a friend from undergrad who’s in Marine Bio; what worked for her was taking some summer jobs in Alaska (Sitka or Glacier Bay, I think) that helped her make connections with folks who work on and with whale-tagging boats. If I remember correctly. So I would say, if she can move somewhere with a good program and try to find work there, that might be a good step. It might also be relevant that I understand many Alaskan communities are pretty close-knit among the “locals,” so she might not have the same experience moving somewhere more metropolitan.

    6. C in the Hood*

      Thanks, everyone, for your comments! I’ve copied & pasted them into an email that I’ll forward to her. And Shark Whisperer–she especially loves sharks!

    7. Dealtwiththis*

      AZA job boards website, Texas A&M WFSC job board are good places to start. Also, I had to do two internships after graduating before I lucked into my first wildlife related job. She can do it! Sometimes you just need to be in the right place at the right time. Also, check those job boards every single day and apply immediately when she sees something she’s interested in. Would love to hear an update when she’s found a job!

    8. H.C.*

      In addition to the other comments above, if possible – try to take on a Spring (though it might be a bit tight to apply for that now) or Summer internship, which can provide the relevant work experience to give her an edge when applying for actual jobs.

  65. What’s with Today, today*

    My co-worker and I are both air personalities for a small family-owned radio station. I’ve been here 11 years, co-worker has been here just under 2. On holidays, he and I are required to work. I work 5 a.m. – 1 p.m. and he’s 10a-6p. My shift is harder and more on-air intensive (5 hours on air to his one hour on air). My shift is harder to automate, his is already almost totally automated and typically there are a lot of sports on air on holidays…our part timers can handle that… that said, holidays are required work days for both of us (and the part time high school employees that work at night covering the sports) but the office is closed. Our handbook spells out that we can’t ask off on these holidays, the request will be denied. We both get off on Christmas though I come in at 5a.m. to start the automation for the rest of the day. Years and years ago I requested Memorial Day off and it was approved, but boss told me “don’t do that to me again.” Because of that experience and the handbook policy I’ve never asked off on a holiday again. My husband’s family takes trips for Thanksgiving and/or 4th of July that we’ve never attended because of the holiday policy.

    Last year, my co-worker asked off for New Years Day. I can’t remember why and it doesn’t matter but the day off was granted. I kind of figured it was a one time thing and never brought it up, though it admittedly it makes my day a little harder as I have to pre-record an hour long program to cover the hour he’s usually on air.

    This year at Thanksgiving co-worker asked if he could leave early and was allowed to work 10-3. I just found out he’s requested NYD again, as we’ll as New Years Eve, which is also considered a holiday for us. It hasn’t been approved yet but likely will be.

    I don’t want to begrudge him the days off at all but at this point I want to ask for July 4 so we can go on the family trip! If it’s granted, great, but if Boss doesn’t grant my request, how do I handle it without bringing my co-workers approved days into the mix? I don’t want to throw co-worker under the bus, but I want equal treatment on holiday requests. I know my shift is harder to cover than his, but this is getting old.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think it’s throwing your coworker under the bus to point out that you’re not being treated equally. It’s not like they’re unaware he’s taking off! I’d say something like: “I’ve noticed that holidays off for on-air staff (or “Bob and I” if you don’t share the same title) are no longer a hard no. With that in mind, I’d like to ask for July 4 off.”

  66. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    For government clearances #askingforafriend, if one already has secret or top secret clearance, and is trying to obtain suitability (which is a different animal), how long should that take? I’ve heard 1 week, or 2, and I have no idea what the right answer is.

    1. Brownie*

      Completely dependent on if there’s personnel availability to handle the request and how fast they get back the information they need. This time of the year if it was started at the beginning of December I’d say it might be a full month before it gets done and the decision made because of the holidays and people being unavailable. If candidate or character interviews are needed based on risk then it might take up to 2 months at this time of the year if the interviews haven’t already been done. Tell your friend to hang in there, everything takes longer around the holidays.

  67. lcsa99*

    I am probably just over thinking things, but regarding the gifts flowing down thing: as a receptionist, I am technically below everyone. Does that mean I shouldn’t be giving anyone gifts this time of year? Or does it really only apply to managers? I wouldn’t give anything to the big bosses, my direct manager, or the other manager I sometimes work with closely; but what about everyone else? I am pretty isolated where I sit, so I like to give little things to the few people who make an effort to notice me and have real conversations rather than just “where should I put this outgoing mail?” but it occurred to me the other day that I am pretty low on the totem pole and maybe I shouldn’t be doing it.

    1. Tara S.*

      I don’t think you shouldn’t give gifts because you are low in the pecking order – you should never feel pressured to give gifts, since you would be mostly gifting up, but that doesn’t mean you can’t. The one thing I would worry about is singling people out in a way that made waves.

    2. Drax*

      Gifts shouldn’t be used as a way to build relationships, especially as a receptionist. Start making reasons for people to pop by that will naturally grow into relationships with them. Seriously, a well stocked candy jar will bring in more conversation than gifts out of the blue – and make people less uncomfortable.

      Bonus perk is often the company will pay for the candy in the jar so no cost to you.

      1. Drax*

        oh hang on I misread that. A small something to those people who do notice you wouldn’t be out of line, but I would highly suggest not spending a lot. Often people in other roles make more then a receptionist and I imagine a lot of them would feel awful if they didn’t think to get you anything. A coffee card to their favorite place or some treat bags you made would be appropriate but not like a kitchen aid mixer.

        1. lcsa99*

          The gifts are all little homemade treats. And in the past, all these people have given me little things this time of year too (well all but one, and another one is new so I’m not counting her). One of them brings me a treat every time I tell her she has a package (which I’ve told her is sweet but not necessary since I am just doing my job).

          But I’ve had enough conversations with these people to consider them friendly, if not “friends.” We just have things in common like books or Soaps or whatever.

          1. Drax*

            Then absolutely making some treats would be appropriate! As long as you don’t feel you have to, it’s very nice thing and a perfect gift.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        The only problem with this suggestion is that there is always the loser who is rude to her and will stop by and get treats and the loser who takes a bunch of treats before the people who she would like to thanks gets them.

  68. Tigger*

    Wish me luck. My coworker who has supposed to be training me for the past 6 months is retiring me on 28th and is getting more gruff and angry with me when I ask questions or try to take notes when he is “training” me. I am trying my best but I feel like I am drowning.
    Wish me luck, the next 2 weeks is going to be rough

    1. Desk Jockey's Last Day*

      People who don’t want to train but are stuck training are the worst. This is what I’ve been putting up with during my entire short-term gig here, and I can’t wait until I say my last “have a good weekend” to my cranky co-worker this afternoon.

      1. Tigger*

        Exactly. There are alot of things I can figure out if I had notes or a manual but he talks at me and its hard to follow my notes cause he goes so quickly. I just hope my boss sees this and will understand if there are a few bumps in the transition.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Ask coworker what manuals/resources he used to learn the job. And what he does if he needs a question answered.

  69. Kramerica Industries*

    My coworker sent an email out to my team of 10 “recommending” that we all pitch in $20 to get our manager AND director a Christmas gift. In the email, she directly stated that with the $20 from each of us, she would be getting them each a gift card for $100 to a mall. We’ve previously never done anything like this and did not discuss as a group (though she said “a few people seemed interested”).

    AAM, I’m happy to report that after years of seeing that gifting up (and especially in amounts that high!) is not a thing, I didn’t bat an eye when I emailed back to say that I would not be participating and felt uncomfortable with gifting up, but it was a nice gesture and she should still proceed if others are interested. A few coworkers replied to my email in agreement and she ended up cancelling the whole team gift idea because not everyone was on board. Some of the newer members on my team came up to me after and thanked me for sending the email because while they felt uncomfortable, they wouldn’t have said anything because they thought it was just some weird thing that was normal here. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone here!

    1. Psyche*

      Wow. And she already decided how much people should contribute? That is obnoxious. If she really wanted to get a gift I could see sending out an e-mail letting people know she was doing it and asking if anyone else wanted to join, but to basically tell people that they are doing a group gift and what it should cost is not ok in the slightest.

    3. Cerridwen*

      Great job on this. My last workplace (120+ people) did a mandatory gift for the owner every Christmas and required a $20 donation. They kept a spreadsheet of who donated and would send e-mail reminders. Most of us made close to minimum wage so it really irked me to see the owner getting $1500+ gifts.

  70. long time poster, first time reader*

    Going a bit anonymous for this…
    This week I received an email invitation to listen to an HR representative tell me about a job.
    I decided to listen to what they had to say after reading the job description. The job sounds interesting, but I have a few worries.
    I am in Japan and this is a Japanese company.

    To make things short, while the company has come highly recommended by a friend who works at a rival company, I feel uneasy about possibly making a jump. I prefer not to change jobs quickly, and I just started at my present place last spring.
    The HR representative encouraged me to apply, and sent me some materials. However, she wouldn’t disclose the salary range, only saying it would be based on skillset and potential.
    The pros are that it is a “salaried” position, has a twice a year bonus, the potential to learn about a field that is hot right now and to possibly have some growth experience.
    The cons are PTO which is half of what I had in my previous job, a full 40hr work week (I get a day off each week now), and having to go through a three month trial period before being brought on as “full.”
    The PTO is 10 days, which is a lot? standard? for the US, but again, I live in Japan and when and if I travel home, it’s usually for two weeks. Traveling on national holidays will essentially double any travel costs, possibly triple.

    I don’t know if I am scared to change jobs again, I wouldn’t want to miss a good opportunity, or if I am too burned out or what. I am just starting to get the hang of things at my current place and make friends.
    Possible new job would offer a better chance at maybe acquiring skills that could transfer to the US.

    I would also be going from a 25 to 30 minute door-to-door commute to 45 to 50 minutes.

    1. Psyche*

      If you are happy where you are and you started very recently, I would probably listen to your gut on this one. If you feel uneasy, is it worth going though the application process? For me, not even knowing a salary range would be a huge turn off.

      1. long time poster, first time reader*

        You are the second person to mention that. The friend who recommended the company makes a good salary for Japan. However, she’s an engineer and I would not be one.
        I have a number of issues with my current place, but I am familiar with the work style.
        The position this other place spoke to be about seems to have been open since at least August. I am leaning towards starting the application and seeing what happens. It sounds like they want to move quickly, and since I have not been doing the job search, I can afford to be picky.

        Thanks for the heads up about the salary! I am glad I remembered to ask her about that.

    2. Kes*

      Yeah, uncertain salary, half the PTO and a longer commute sounds not great to me. Have you researched what the salary is likely to be? Maybe consider if they made you an offer at a likely salary level, whether you think you would consider accepting it. It may be worth interviewing to find out more, but if you’re already not sold on it, it’s also reasonable to decide not to bother.

    3. Michio Pa*

      Also working in Japan.
      1) “salaried” position + has a twice a year bonus + 40hr work week + 3 month trial period before becoming permanent: These are all standard in Japanese companies. You will find these factors to be common among almost all “seishain” permanent positions.
      2) PTO of 10 days is the legal minimum. Does it go up year by year? Many companies offer 20 days so 10 seems a bit low, though not very rare.
      3) “Traveling on national holidays will essentially double any travel costs, possibly triple.” Yes, welcome to living in Japan. If you’ve been using 8 days PTO to travel home for 2 weeks in the off-season, your expectations are not really in line with what is feasible for most Japan residents. Most of us have to make use of national holidays and yes it is more expensive, that’s normal here.
      4) “25 to 30 minute door-to-door commute to 45 to 50 minutes” Both of those are pretty average commute times for Tokyo, actually <30 min door-to-door is really good. Maybe if you live in a less populated city with good transport and good housing you can do under 30, but too rural or too urban and you're looking at at least 40 min. I think instead you should prioritize how crowded your train line is/how many transfers you need to make.
      5) "However, she wouldn’t disclose the salary range, only saying it would be based on skillset and potential." In Japanese companies usually the salary scale is not based on the position, but on the individual's knowledge and experience. That said, Japanese companies are usually not as shady as in the US about disclosing a number upfront. It sounds like you had an information session, but if they have an actual job opening you should be able to call and get a number, or at least they should tell you an estimate if you interview.

      Hopefully all that gives you some basis on which to evaluate this potential job. But what I can't help you with is whether or not you should leave a job you're just getting comfortable in, for "the potential to learn about a field that is hot right now and to possibly have some growth experience"… that's a tough call and I think you should interview to find out more, and also see what else you can find out about the company (do they have flex time? How many hours of overtime work per month? What is the structure of the job/office like?) Good luck!

      1. long time poster, first time reader*

        Thanks for the reply. Don’t know if you will see mine. My line is crowded regardless, and I wouldn’t have a transfer.

        Since I haven’t worked jobs that pay a bonus, and the salaries have been low, I kind of want to prioritize being able to get home at least once a year without eating up all my PTO. I don’t want to take a job with meh pay where a huge chunk of my pay and PTO are used to travel home for less than a week. I get that many companies do that, but if it were my first or third year here, I’d bite the bullet and suck it up.

        My experience with Japanese companies, one’s I’ve interviewed at and worked at has been that they try to lowball and nitpick every little thing. One company I worked at listed a salary range of 3mil to 10mil for every. single. job posted.
        This company has an open position. They sent me a link to the application for me to check out then called me to tell me about it, but wouldn’t disclose a salary range. The ad says they have flex time.

        I will definitely check it out. I just wish I had more information on the environment. Much of the information online has been written by the company. I worked at a company that did the same thing, promoting a super cool, relaxed image to customers and potential employees. The reality was very different and turnover was insane. I guess I’ll see how it goes!

        1. Michio Pa*

          Yeah, low salaries esp for younger people are very common unfortunately. I still think you’re going to have to suck it up and travel on holidays like everyone else… you can use 4 days next to Obon, GW, or end of the year and get 2 weeks off. But I think you should be able to get more than 10 days off at a good deal of companies, might be able to get better pay too so you wouldn’t have to pick one or the other. Next year they will legally have to allow every employee to take 5 days PTO which would be half the allotment, you could ask them how they plan to align with that considering they only give 10 days (this is pretty adversarial though, haha!).

          3 mil to 10 mil sounds like they’re doing the classic Japanese method of hire people, then redistribute the work to align with the level of expert you can get. I’d recommend you interview, get as much as you can about the work environment (including # of hours overtime per month), and get a salary number from them (not sure the legal requirements for stating it up front but they should be able to estimate an offer even if they’re using that hire-then-redistribute model). You can also look them up on the site I linked if your Japanese is good, it’s kind of like Japanese Glassdoor. Hope it works out for you!

  71. Cerridwen*

    I work local government and my department recently filmed a “Happy Holidays from the XYZ Deparment!” for a commercial on our public information channel that plays on cable TV. For some background, I’m secular but spiritual and I have no problems with most religions and find many to be fascinating. However, when we started to film the director of my department decided to re-do and change the wording to “Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from the XYZ Department!” Fine, it is Christmas season…but on the last take he ad-libbed a monologue about how Jesus is the reason for the season, how he died on the cross for our sins, etc.

    I feel that as a local government we represent all people and his monologue felt inappropriate considering there are many religious holidays in December. Clearly I’m thinking from a secular/atheist point of view, so I’m wondering if I’m totally off-base here?

        1. AnonEmu*

          Totally off-base, IMO. I’m a lapsed Catholic and to me governmental endorsement of -any- religion isn’t appropriate. It’s government for everyone, not whatever subset of people belong to your flavor of belief.

        3. Liane*

          I am Southern USA and Christian and am here to tell you
          1) he’s totally wrong and inappropriate
          2) if I were Dept. Head’s boss, he’d be listening to my Serious Come-To-Jesus Talking-To ASAP. (And not the kind you hear in churches…)

    2. No Name Yet*

      I’m Christian and I would find that incredibly inappropriate from my local (or other) government. Well, the ‘Merry Christmas’ part I would find inappropriate, the ad-libbed monologue I….I don’t even have the words for how incensed I would be to see that on TV. (Plus, it’s Christmas, not Easter! Irrelevant for government purposes, but would make it extra aggravating.)

      1. PB*

        Yes. If a private business did this, I would strongly consider never patronizing that business again. Totally, totally inappropriate.

    3. Postdoc*

      I know that there is some debate about whether Christmas has become a secular holiday and whether “Merry Christmas” is ok, but what the director did is not at all debatable. The government cannot and should not make a commercial that specifically evangelizes Christianity!

    4. Zona the Great*

      Wildly unacceptable. Also, I assume the commercial will be filmed using public funds? NOPE. A watchdog group would go nuts over this.

      1. Cerridwen*

        It was filmed by our internal Public Information Office who is paid by public funds! Part of me feels super petty for being bothered by this because I know that if I said something, even anonymously, it would be written off as baseless complaining by a “Politically Correct Snowflake.”

  72. Ruth (UK)*

    There is a person, Bob, who is in approx the same position as my manager, Jane. I work with Bob but he doesn’t currently manage me.

    We’re going to have a new person in the new year and I’ve been told Bob will become my manager and Jane will be the new person’s manager. There are various logistical reasons for this which don’t matter for this post.

    There’s not really anything I can do about this and it’s not terrible or anything but I’m just quite unhappy. I think Jane is a very good manager and very efficient at her job and I also get on well with her and enjoy working with her. I have had very good performance reviews and she recently made a case for me to have a raise.

    I get on well with Bob and I think he is good at his job. Our personalities are a bit different but we have always worked well together. I do feel he is less approachable than Jane but he’s not unapproachable.

    I guess it’s less that I don’t want Bob to be my manager and more than I -do- want Jane to be (or would prefer it). Jane is widely considered to be fantastic at her job and a good manager. Bob has a reputation for being quite serious, quiet, and a hard worker.

    I haven’t expressed that I’m not happy with as I don’t think it will/can change so I feel doing so could only potentially harmful my working relationship with Bob.

    I don’t know if there is advice to be had on this situation but if there is I’m open to it (I guess it would be advice on dealing with my feelings as I don’t feel there is anything actionable about the situation itself).

    1. Ruth (UK)*

      Additionally I thought I’d add… Jane is in her 50s and has a lot of relevant experience behind her. She’s been in her current role for almost 10 years and had similar level jobs before it. Bob is my age (late 20s) and is very new to management and this position. He was promoted into his current role a month ago (having progressed quite fast through several job levels in the last few years) and I will be his first direct report.

    2. Alianora*

      Hmm, I think you’re right not to say that you’re unhappy about this. Maybe try reframing it to yourself as “I’ll miss having Jane as my manager” instead of “I’m unhappy Bob will be my manager”? I’ve recently switched departments and I got along very well with my former manager, so we still email and have lunch together every once in a while.

      One thing you might want to keep in mind is that Bob could still turn out to be a great manager. Quiet people often act differently towards people they work more closely with. A manager-employee relationship also looks very different than a coworker-coworker relationship.

      Maybe you can also talk to Bob about his preferences in terms of communication, which could help you with the unapproachability issue? If you know that he likes to have a weekly meeting instead of a daily one, maybe you’ll feel more at ease coming to him during those weekly meetings.

      1. Grandma Mazur*

        I agree with asking Bob what his communication preferences are and how he likes to manage – and it’s also ok to share with him what you’ve found to be valuable in other line management relationships (you don’t have to specifically say “with Jane” or “what Jane did…”). Whenever I’ve been moved to a new line manager, whether they’ve been good or bad, I’ve tried to see it as valuable for two reasons:
        1. It gives me examples of problem solving or other situations (eg communicating) I may be able to use in future interviews
        2. It helps to draw my attention not only to the things I do or don’t like as a line managee, but being aware that people have different styles helps me focus on what kind of line manager I want to be and what my reports might need from me (ie, they don’t all want to manage or be managed how I do!).

  73. Anon anony*

    I was with my coworker, “Violet” waiting for a taxi to pick us up to take us to the airport and Violet starts freaking out. She was worried that our other coworkers would see us and according to her, “They talk about people outside” and she didn’t want to be talked about. I don’t know if it was because I was standing there, but it was weird that Violet was so paranoid.

    Violet is in her late 50’s, so I don’t know what the problem was, but isn’t it weird?

    1. Myrin*

      I’m not sure I’m understanding correctly – “they talk about people outside”? As in, people who, well, exist outside the office? Or outside the home? Are “they” you guys’ coworkers or did she mean literally everyone out and about on the street? I’m assuming you are not secret agents or spies or somesuch, so I’m with you in thinking that this is highly weird (unless Violet does indeed suffer from something like clinical paranoia/persecution complex; that would explain the words, but as I said, I’m not sure I’m even understanding them correctly).

    2. Asenath*

      Slightly odd, perhaps. But a lot of people have little quirks and fears like that. People who’ve spent a lot of time in schools or workplaces where there’s a lot of speculative and often quite imaginative gossip behind others’ backs can sometimes take it all very seriously and worry about what kind of stories others are making up about them. I’ve always ignored gossip about me and not (as far as possible) engaged in gossip about others. I learned early how unreliable and even nasty and destructive it can be. Others try to avoid behaviour which might give rise to gossip – which is practically all behaviour.

      I have a friend who is far more nervous in public than I am – when she talked to me about the dangers posed by the teenaged boys near a high school, I just said I hadn’t had any problems, and let it go. I’d lived in the immediate neighbourhood of the school for over a decade, and taken the shortcut past the high school to the supermarket nearly as long without incident. She was convinced that all adolescent boys she didn’t know personally were young thugs just waiting to mug aging women. No point arguing about it, it’s just another way people think and behave.

  74. anonforthis*

    I guess I’m not sure if this belongs in the work open thread or the truly open thread. while back, HR called me to investigate a potential incident which occurred outside of work, but was after a friendly gathering of people who had just participated in a community service opportunity representing work. I wasn’t given any specifics of the incident itself , but from the questions it seemed like it might have been bordering on sexual harassment/assault-related. A person was let go very suddenly, as I found out by a company-wide email the next day – not a suspiciously-timed “I’m leaving for another opportunity” but a “this person is no longer employed.” For what it’s worth, the other person involved had already just given notice to go on to greener pastures anyway, so I don’t know if they would have been let go had that not been the case. Other people had asked me if I knew what happened, just in a general office gossip context not knowing that I had talked to HR, and those questions made me nervous, although I’m probably just paranoid and I don’t think anyone actually knew anything. Of course our HR is great, and wouldn’t let the person know that I answered questions about the night in question, and none of what I witnessed was incriminating to anyone, anyway, but I was one of only a few people around and it wouldn’t take a genius to put together that I had been talked to, so I’m a little afraid they will blame me for this firing. The individual who was let go is a large, physically intimidating person, and I’m…the opposite. I’m terrified that I’m going to run into this person in our fairly small town, and they drive a distinctive car, but one which a few other people also have. We aren’t social media friends, so I couldn’t see if they’ve moved away from online posts. I’m starting to have what I’m pretty sure are minor panic attacks (never had one before) every time I see one of these distinctive cars driving down the road or pulling into the same parking lot as me (like at the grocery store, not at work). This person’s personality has never seemed threatening to me before, but I’m still finding myself scared. This happened at the end of October but I’m still finding myself struggling. Am I overthinking this? Is this a therapy issue? If anyone has any tips from similar situations I would love to hear it – I can’t be the only one something like this has happened to!

    1. anonforthis*

      I should probably clarify that our legal counsel had been on the phone for my discussion about the night in question, which is what initially made me realize it was such a serious issue.

    3. Guy Incognito*

      I’m a little bit confused by this scenario, so I’m going to try to break it down then address your email.

      -There was an incident outside of work.
      -You were at the event where this incident occurred, but you did not witness this incident.
      -HR called you to ask you about the event itself, but not about the incident because you are unaware of the incident.
      -The person was fired. The incident is not generally known.
      -The person who was fired was moving on anyway.
      -The person who was fired has never done anything threatening, is just “big.”
      -No one knows you said anything to anyone about the event itself.

      I’d say you have little to worry about. If I have it right, you have someone who did something and was fired, you were asked about context because you didn’t know anything about the incident itself. Some gossip may go around, but I’d think the people involved with the incident would have to worry, if any worrying is needed, since by your own admission this person has never given you a reason to worry.

      As for therapy, it couldn’t hurt. You’re clearly anxious about something, so it may not be related to this, but if you’re that fearful it’s possible that there’s an underlying disorder that can help you out. Plus, a little therapy can be very helpful for some people. But I wouldn’t worry about this specifically, unless you get a more concrete reason. it can be stressful just to see someone out after they have been fired – I have been on that end where someone was fired for “an incident” and it was weird seeing them afterwards at a random restaurant, but if you only spoke to HR about being present then you have very little involvment.

      If I’m wrong in my recap, let me know. Good luck and I hope that helps.

      1. anonforthis*

        You’re mostly correct! Sorry the whole post was a lot of jumble. I’m just very nervous sharing anything about this, so I think my brain is over-firing and it’s coming out as word vomit.

        The person who was fired wasn’t planning on moving on, but the person who would probably be considered the accuser was and had sent out their company-wide “goodbye I’ll miss you all” notice email a day or so before I got the call from HR. The questioning happened probably at least a month after the night, so I’m guessing the accuser decided to leave the organization and therefore decided to report, since they’d be able to easily avoid any potential retaliation.

        Logically I know they were let go because HR/Legal found out a concrete reason to do so. They were a high performer and their being let go has heavily impacted our organization. And even though I am 10000% a believer of sexual assault/harassment accusers and advocate for strong punishment, and based on the context it seems like that must be what happened here, I can’t help but feel guilty about them losing their job and feeling like I was part of that! They’re not a threatening personality and I’m sure I logically don’t have anything to fear, but yes, physically intimidating, and now adding on that they must have been accused and found guilty by HR of something that seems like it must have been horrible, I’m terrified of running into them.

        Your reply helps me see that logically I have nothing to worry about – I just have to get my non-logical side on board. I’m hoping that more time passing will help. Thank you for your clear and compassionate response!

        1. Guy Incognito*

          I’m sorry for the wrong info, and I understand being nervous… and I’m glad I could help!

  75. Free Meerkats*

    I ran into something that sort of amused me yesterday. I was at our main Public Works building talking with our safety person and went to the restroom. Layout is 4 urinals and three stalls; I settled into one stall, the other two were open.

    I wasn’t in there very long (thank you curried squash soup), but while I was someone tried the door three times – note, the other two were still open. After I was finished and washing my hands, someone rushed in and went directly to the stall I had just vacated. I guess he just had to use that one.

    So the question, do you have a favorite? I don’t; I’ll use what’s available, including portable toilets.

    1. lcsa99*

      I have a preferred stall (of the three in our bathroom, one has a funky lock that doesn’t always work and another one flushes weird), but I wouldn’t NOT use one of the weird ones if my favorite is taken. That’s just odd.

    2. Funny Cide*

      I have a favorite! Our toilets have REALLY aggressive automatic flush, so I use the handicap stall (of course, I’d abandon my preference should a handicapped person need to use it!) because I can stand over to the side and tuck my shirt back in, etc. without the toilet flushing 3 more times while I do it. Automatic flush toilets freak me out a little after an incident falling in one as a small child…

      1. Tris Prior*

        Oh god, our automatic flush toilets are so hair trigger sensitive, I hate them. There is this one black sweater that I wear often in winter, which apparently the sensor can’t handle – too dark and matte? Uncertain – and the toilet will flush over and over and over again *while I am still peeing.*

      2. Hamburke*

        At the office is the perfect place to use this trick I used with my kids for auto flush toilets – bring a sticky note/post-it and put it over the sensor – it will flush when you take the sticky note off.

    3. Jaid*

      Yup! Second floor on the noth side of the building, by the break room, middle stall. The auto-flush works consistently and that side of the building is used primarily by WFH folks who come in maybe once a week, so that bathroom is cleaner.
      I mean, if I gotta go, I’ll go. I just prefer to go there!

    4. Canadian Natasha*

      I use the handicapped stall at work because I’m mildly claustrophobic and germaphobic; those regular size stalls basically force you to rub yourself on the walls or door or toilet to get out, *shudder*. But I’ll use another stall if that one is unavailable. (Or if there were anyone who needed that particular stall- which is not currently an issue with coworkers) I would also pick the stall that is not next to an occupied one if given a choice.

    5. Dasein9*

      Yes, and also a preferred floor. There are at least two men’s room users who have serious illnesses on my floor, so the two stalls are often occupied. Even if they’re not, it seems kind to leave them for the folks who might have an urgent need when possible. I’m trans and prefer a stall myself, so the elevator tends to be involved in my bathroom breaks.

    6. Old Cynic*

      We have 2 urinals and 2 stalls. I use the handicapped stall* because the toilet is the same height as a home toilet. In the smaller stall, the toilet is very short and I feel like my knees are up against my chin when I use it.

      In either case, it’s clear the stall is occupied but people still jiggle the handle to try and open it.

      *no one in the building is disabled/handicapped so not a problem to occupy.

    7. Alianora*

      I do tend to have a favorite stall, but if it’s occupied I’ll just go to another one.

      What I don’t understand is why people have an aversion to speaking in public restrooms. If you think someone’s there, you can knock and ask if it’s occupied. If someone is repeatedly pulling on your door, you also don’t have to sit silently — you can say, “Sorry, it’s occupied!” Not saying you *had* to say something, but it sure seems like that would be less stressful than having someone continually try to enter the stall while you’re doing your business.

      1. Ktelzbeth*

        So, many years ago. . . The setting is a loud ferry boat. I had to use the bathroom and went into the single occupancy restroom, locking the door behind me. I needed to sit a little and someone came up and knocked on the door. I said, “Just a minute,” which is my standard response. They tried to pull the door open. I shouted “Just a minute.” They tried harder. I shouted something else, even louder, knowing my voice was being drowned out by the engines, which sounded like they were in the bathroom. This continued until I was shouting at the top of my lungs, while desperately trying to finish my business, and they pulled so hard on the door that they popped the lock and got the door to open.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          X_X

          I really don’t understand the thought process for some people. If you have to yank on the door that hard, there’s probably a reason.

    8. CatMintCat*

      There is one adult toilet in my workplace, so no chance to be picky.

      I’ve never met an automatic flush toilet.

    10. Jxb500*

      I recall reading an article once that cited some survey that showed many people did tend to have a favorite stall in their workplace.

  76. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

    Odd exchange with a coworker in the bathroom moments ago.

    We have four stalls. All in working condition as far as I know. I choose the first stall on the end, the rest were open. I was pretty quick as usual and I come out, and my coworker is standing right there. She’s dancing a little…like she needs to use the restroom…and seems like she’s waiting for me to exit the stall.

    So I say, really confused, “Were you waiting for THIS stall to open?” I’m thinking she’ll say something like no, she just got here, or the others are broken or something, or laugh… and instead she says: “YEAH.” Kinda defensive/aggressive in tone. Subtext received: “Get the hell out of it, Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon.” I step aside and she goes in. When she returned to her desk she did not explain further, or joke about it.

    Another lesson in how people are weird. Some need their particular stalls I guess…¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    1. Myrin*

      As I’m reading this with no other replies posted yet, Gene/Free Merkats right above you posted about the exact same situation! This is certainly one of the funnier juxtapositions I’ve seen on this site!

    2. Catleesi*

      This is perfectly timed with the previous post!

      I understand having a preferred stall – but jeez use what’s open! (Unless of course it is the handicapped stall, in which case totally different scenario.)

      1. valentine*

        If there is no wheelchair stall and that one is the biggest, it makes sense. I wouldn’t wait because awkwardness/warm seat/I don’t want to know who pees on the seat or floor, but I should wait, as it’s the only useful, pain-free or least painful, stall.

  77. Anonymous Educator*

    Do your workplaces have holiday parties this time of year? Or Christmas parties? Or no parties at all?

    For years, I’d been to only holiday parties. Then, I moved to the other side of the U.S., and it was explicitly called a Christmas party. Then I moved back, and it was holiday parties again.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Christmas parties. Always Christmas parties. In fact, when I went to order cards for suppliers/customers, my boss explicitly expressed his annoyance with anything that didn’t say “Merry Christmas” on it. I was trying to find more along the lines of “season’s greetings.”

      I think he thinks there’s only one holiday this time of year and everyone loves it. :/

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      OldJob, a private Protestant university, called it the End of the Semester Celebration. NewJob, a private Catholic university, calls it the Christmas Party. Which to me is rather funny, since NewJob is WAY more accepting of diverse people/ideas than OldJob. Next week we have our division celebration, which is a Holiday/End of the Semester Brunch.

    3. Marge Gunderson*

      I don’t because I work for myself, but my husband freelances so he gets invited to many holiday parties. Always Holiday. But we live in a very large, very liberal city with many well-represented non-Christian populations. In the past when I worked for not-myself it was always holiday.

    5. lcsa99*

      This is the first workplace I’ve had that doesn’t have either a Christmas or Holiday party. We get bonuses, and people bring sweets in on random days, but we don’t have anything organized.

      We do have a potluck the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, but so many people are out that day (me included) that it doesn’t mean that much (honestly not sure how they do it since we only have a microwave and toaster oven to reheat stuff!)

    6. Beth Anne*

      I think it’s always been a Christmas Party. Even now I work in a Restaurant with mostly non-religious people and we still call it our Christmas Party. I’m on the East Coast.

    7. Asenath*

      We have quite a range of events, from lunches out organized by small groups of co-workers to much bigger parties in the evening and also off-site. I go to very, very few of them; only the very smallest most informal ones with the people I work most closely with. I’d say the bigger ones are more likely to be called “holiday” parties, the smaller ones are more likely to be called “Christmas lunch” (but it’s hard to be sure because those are not advertised and organized informally among small working groups). In casual conversation, people will mention either the holidays or Christmas.

    8. wingmaster*

      I am in the US (West Coast), and my company just had a Holiday Party.

      Next week, my department is planning to do a holiday lunch and cocktails.

    9. matcha123*

      I work in Japan and most Japanese offices have an end-of-the-year party. Many also have a new-year party around January 10 or 20.
      The office party format in Japan is for workers only. They start at 6:30 or 7:30 on the dot, if you have urgent work in the office you can be late, but the speech from the big boss will almost always start on time.
      Everyone draws a number and is seated at that spot at any number of tables at the venue. Usually at a niceish, but not too expensive, restaurant that serves a (hopefully) full(ish) course meal and unlimited drinks.
      Some years coworkers will dress up…think Santa costumes or Pikachu, and do a raffle or a game. A few years ago we did pictionary. The time for the party is generally 2 to 3 hours, and after everyone is kicked out, they split into their friend groups and go off to other bars or cafes to drink more and gossip.

      Despite being in Japan, not all that many people who I have worked with like karaoke. And karaoke here is in small, private rooms (generally…). Most people concentrate on drinking back what they paid because the food comes out slowly and the portions are small. Oh, and they are almost always on a weekday aside from Friday.

      1. Beth Anne*

        I kind of wish my company did a summer party instead of christmas b/c we’re seasonal so our busy season is from April-August. And I feel like that would be a good way to end the season.

    11. Robot With Human Hair*

      We definitely did last year, but it was no families (the owner brought his, but that’s neither here nor there). Open bar, some nice hors d’oeuvres type of foods. Gifted a couple bottles of wine and some chocolates. Not too bad, but I stayed close to the other two anti-social people at my company (one has since been let go, sadly).

      As far as I know, we’re not having one this year, haven’t heard anything about one.

    12. londonedit*

      I’m in the UK, and most parties at this time of year are called Christmas parties. I get the feeling Christmas is much more secular here than it is in the USA – I live in London, which has been a multicultural city for hundreds of years, and even the Muslim-owned shops and takeaways have ‘Merry Christmas’ signs or fairy lights in the windows at this time of year, just as they have ‘Eid Mubarak’. The default position for most people is ‘well, I guess my family are sort of Church of England but no one actually goes to church anymore’ and the more extreme side of religious viewpoint is relatively uncommon (at least in my experience). Religion is also one of the Things That Isn’t Talked About in polite UK society (as in, you don’t ask what someone’s religion is and they probably won’t tell you; it’s a private matter like politics or discussing salary). So (aside from the traditional ‘They’re Trying To Take Christmas Away’ bollocks that’s occasionally pedalled by the right-wing press whenever they get wind of a ‘winter festival’ or whatever) people are generally happy with celebrating Christmas and having Christmas parties even if they’re not religious. I’m not religious and I celebrate Christmas as a time for family and friends and general overindulgence. I’m not offended by people wanting to celebrate the religious side of the holiday, and I’m also not offended by people who don’t want to do that.

      Every workplace I’ve encountered has had a Christmas party and/or Christmas lunch, but with no overt religious aspect (yes I know Christmas carols and things are religious, but here they are also cultural and part of the general tradition of the country).

    13. sam*

      Aussie here: in my two decades of working for various companies, they’re almost always Christmas parties. Very rarely is there anything actually Christmas-y about them. They’re just a reason for food and drink and the occasional dance.

  78. JS82*

    I was reading old posts and had to mention this since it is work related but not so much a question. I once receive a resume and he put some hobbies on it. I see no need for that but whatever I was not put off by it, until I read it. “Love boating and fishing, but don’t do it anymore because my b@tch wife took my boat in the divorce.” I saved that.

    1. Nanc*

      I have the sudden urge to bust out a chorus of SheDaisy’s Little Goodbyes!
      I wonder if that was a draft of his resume he wrote to vent and not to send!

      1. JS82*

        I do hope so but there were a few other weird things like that. Something regarding being fired and his boss being a problem. I don’t recall the wife one just stayed locked in my memory. It was for a shop hand so not someone who needed to be perfectly polished and a lot will not be the most traditional resumes but this was obviously over the top.

        1. Girl friday*

          Maybe it’s an editing thing? Like a note when people say, “There are 357 references to weasels in this document. Good luck finding them all.” There is always a weasel that sneaks through. Love people putting in clever things to edit out later.

          1. Girl friday*

            Some people who are looking for different minimum wage jobs will do stream of consciousness resumes. I think it’s kind of sweet.

  79. Fenchurch*

    In need of some advice! I’m in a strange place now that my current job is winding down. The director of my previous department reached out to me to let me know she has some opportunities open if I want to go back. It would be a lateral move into a role that I was pretty good at. However, I am in the process of being considered for a role that would be a nice step-up and is more aligned with the work I want to do.

    I don’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth, and want to maintain the relationship with my previous department. I’d love some advice on how to navigate this. I won’t hear back about whether I get the new job for another month.

    I know I need to communicate this situation to them, but want to do so in a way that shows my gratitude and doesn’t make it sound like they’re my backup plan (when they kind of are).

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      What about just saying this? It’s all the same company, right? So just that you’d be happy to move back but you are also in the running for another position so you want to wait until you know the outcome.

      Or is going back to the other department more time sensitive?

  80. Environmental Compliance*

    I’d like to propose to create a new position, but I’m not sure that with what the situation is currently, I can propose it and not have it backfire.

    I’d like to get a technician back into the department that currently consists of me, myself, and I. Historically, there was a Manager and a Tech, and we outsourced a lot of Stuff to outside consultants. Now, it’s just me, and we’re moving a lot of the Consultant-Stuff in-house. I’m totally down for that – it’s work I enjoy doing, and it makes a lot more sense to have all that knowledge/work stay with the company. However, I don’t have time to do that and do all the sampling, which is what a tech was doing previously. We also are hoping to implement a few new programs in the future that would be fantastic, but will of course take more time from me.

    The sticky part of this is that I’d like this person to also be in charge of our wastewater operations….however, I do not want to hand over responsibility for my physical sampling to the individual that is currently doing those operations, as that person is known for being difficult, cannot follow simple directions, and has already caused a few large headaches for me compliance-wise. I’m in the middle of writing yet another noncompliance letter as I type this, because of an issue that occurred because that person chose to go against training/documentation and not do any sort of reasonable response. There is a particular operator that I would pick in a heartbeat to go into the position I want to create. But that would involve kicking the Problem Person out of their current position. I do not like that, it feels icky to me. But I also know that if I were to propose hiring a new person and not involve WW….it’s going to get suggested that we use that individual currently doing the WW operations, because it does make sense. That current person does not report to me.

    1. Free Meerkats*

      As you know, I’m a Regulator. The first non-compliance for failure to follow training/documentation would get you a notice. The second would get you a notice and a fine. The third would probably get you published in the newspaper as a chronic violator along with a Big Fine. If it happened again after that, your plant manager would likely be trying to talk our director out of plugging your sewer.

      Failure to follow policies is a Big Deal in our field and that alone (even without the non-compliance) is enough reason to send this person packing. Don’t let the door hit him on his way out and welcome your reliable person into the job.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Right? And after repeated discussions of “no, really, the Gov can and will fine us 6-figure amounts for this, this is a Thing That Will Not Happen Again”, and this individual just can’t get it. I think I’m even more irritated by it because I have been fighting as well to get that position more training, as it’s not just plug ‘n’ play. To then have the person be so blatant in “huh yeah we exceeded our limit 3 hours ago because I did nothing, and still haven’t done anything…”, well, pardon my french, but F*CKING WHAT?

        I think I feel badly about it because I do like the person as a person, but they are awful for what the position needs.

    2. CheeryO*

      I’m in the same field as a state regulator, and I agree with FM that the priority needs to be getting someone in the role who will perform well and help keep you in compliance. I don’t like hearing that an issue was caused by a problem employee who is being allowed to stick around without repercussions. I know you’ve been on the other side of the table, so I’m sure you get it, but you should allow yourself to think of it as a restructuring and not a demotion.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That’s a good point – restructuring instead of demotion. I think that’ll help me write up a proposal to configure a new position as well.

        This facility has a looooooooooooong history of noncompliance, and we’ve finally been doing better recently (I’ll take the credit for browbeating a few people into understanding that paying fines is Not Compliance), but it still feels like herding cats on LSD.

        This facility can, with the work & the people behind it, totally 180 and become a good sustainable facility. It cannot do that and will end up getting shut down if we continually have these events.

        1. CheeryO*

          I have to say that you sound like a badass! I like getting to work with people like you. Good luck with the proposal – I hope you get what you need.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I wish I was a badass, lol. I’m really just a vaguely angsty woman in steelies and a lab coat that’s a wee bit too large.

            It helps that I came from Gov’t, so I do have a good working relationship with the regulators that oversee us. I’m really sad that one of my favorite ones is retiring soon! He’s been great in helping whip certain aspects back into shape.

            1. Free Meerkats*

              You know we government folks can “assist” you in getting management’s attention. Company environmental folks have used me as the bad guy to get what they need done since I started doing this almost 40 years ago. A letter from a regulator can be really good leverage. Have a quiet chat with the one who is retiring and see if they can escalate the enforcement, staying within their guidelines, of course.

              Since your management seems to be OK with paying fines, maybe the regulator can do public shaming (See 40 CFR Part 403.8(f)(2)(vii)(H) for the grab bag provision). And they can likely really escalate the fines, I can go from $250 to $10,000 per day per violation without needing to resort to the courts; if I decide it’s needed, I’ll just refer someone to EPA criminal – they put one guy in the Federal pen for us.

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                That’s a good point! I’ve requested a firmly written letter from the retiring employee. I also got an email back from BossMan about setting up firm KPIs for that section of the facility, as they were supposed to be set up by the individual’s actual supervisor, but have been neglected as of yet. Planning on pulling some historical data and physically show HEY, no, this is the opposite of good, also we’ve spent nearly 3 million a *year* just on this section’s duck ups.

                I’ve met EPA lawyers before, back when I was still state. They were scary, to say the least.

  81. AnonEmu*

    Update: Immigration paperwork is in processing, and I have moved back in with my parents until it goes through.

    I am still climbing out of the massive burnout I was in at old!job – with all the stuff needed to be done before I move, it seems like another flavor of busy and I have to keep reminding myself not to get overwhelmed. But my mom’s poodle is 15lb of velcro and it’s a lot more fun to get stuff done with a poodle in your lap, so there is that ^^ Still very nervous/excited about moving a whole hemisphere and continent away – with how much the last two moves cost me, and how I wasn’t really able to save anything at old!job (my food bill was insanely high due to no time to cook, and celiac-friendly convenience food is pretty expensive) but getting a significant raise at the new job will help once I get over there and settled, and I am very grateful to my parents for storing my stuff as well as helping me move and letting me stay with them for a while.

    In the meantime, I interview for a part-time job at a bookstore today, so that will help cover a few things, and I now have 4/5 of my dissertation published!

  82. Small fish?*

    Anyone here have tips on how to adjust from a small company (5-person agency run by a couple to large global company with presence in 100+ countries?

    I’m in marketing and my new role is in a regional office, for context…

    1. LQ*

      When I first moved from a small (2 of us!) to large state agency the hardest thing was I kept stepping out of my lane. Over and over and over and over. I would say being as pleasant and deferential as I could when I’d stepped on someone’s toes helped a lot.
      The other thing was I kind of had to be better at the one thing I was hired for than I ever had to be before. Because you’re supposed to just do one thing for all your working time you do absolutely get better at it than when you do 700 things during your working time and you need to be good enough to get by in all of them. So kind of shifting from a jack of all trades to a master of one was strange. It wasn’t that hard, but it was sort of a lot of, no I really can spend an extra 10 hours on this and that’s what they want me to do rather than taking the trash out and dealing with the telemarkers and flyering the neighborhood and writing the grant. I only had to do one of those. And wow did I grow by leaps and bounds when I honed in on one thing (and I have since continued to expand wildly). I didn’t think I was bad before because I wasn’t -Bad- but I wasn’t someone who had that one thing as a full time job.

    2. periwinkle*

      My previous employer: 25 or so employees in one office suite
      The one before that: 13 employees in one office suite
      Current employer: About 150,000 employees, mostly U.S. but also across the globe; my team sits in six different buildings and three time zones

      It was a bit of change.

      The advice I give to new employees is the advice I received from my first mentor here. Build your internal network, and build it immediately. When you work on project teams, keep up relationships afterward if you can. Identify those colleagues who have their own solid networks. Share your knowledge and connections freely. It takes a little time but you will eventually know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows the answer – and those someones are happy to help you because you’ve always been willing to help them.

      Networks shrink a huge company into something manageable.

  83. Sarah*

    I have a new employee that started 12/3. She was a temp for the company in a different position before hired for the opening I had. She was not my pick, but my director’s because he wanted a body in the role, even though he had some concerns.

    She’s had training in one task, and something just isn’t clicking. I met with her yesterday about her productivity numbers, and her response was just “okay” to everything I said. I asked if there was anything that didn’t make sense or she needed help with, but she said no.

    Issues have been addressed nearly daily and she’s almost argumentative about anything I mention. My director is aware of all of this and has alerted HR that we have some concerns that we are going to continue to monitor. This has resulted in HR scheduling a meeting next week to discuss because they say this is a difficult position to fill.

    I’m at my wits end. She is like talking to a wall, so it’s hard to offer any constructive feedback or coaching because she does not appear open to it. Any suggestions?

    1. LQ*

      Make her talk? Whatever you can push back onto her is good. “Tell me how you would do this task next time?” “What will you do differently?” “What is one thing you can commit to and by when?” “Here are your numbers and here are the expectations. Where do you see gaps? What can you do to fix those gaps?”

  84. Postdoc*

    I recently started in a new lab. And I mean brand new just setting up. So far I love it, but my boss is talking about hiring more people and it is making me very nervous. We don’t have standard protocols for anything and are still setting up equipment. I was previously in a lab that was new and grew very fast and it created a lot of problems. You can’t train someone on something you are still learning. Also, it put a huge demand on my PI’s time that she could not meet and there simply was not enough to do because we were still setting up. Is there a way that I can tell my new PI I am nervous about her hiring another person until we are actually set up? Currently she has me and a technician.

    1. catsaway*

      What sort of person does she want to hire? A grad student won’t start until next August at the earliest and post-docs can often have 6-8 month lead times.
      Would everyone be doing the same projects/protocols anyway? In the labs I’ve been different people have their projects that don’t always overlap, protocol wise, and I’ve even had times where I needed to use a different protocol for the same procedure than many other people in my lab due to the specifics of my project.
      It might be difficult to tell your PI to wait because since she’s new (and presumably pre-tenure) she has a lot of pressure to produce papers/grad students/post-docs etc and, as you know, grants are use it or lose it money wise, although of course there is some flexibility.

  85. Marge Gunderson*

    Tips for dealing with direct evaluation from students (college-level) when you get overwhelming positive feedback, but can’t help but dwell on the very small amount of the negative?

    My student evaluations are always really good, but there’s always one or two spoilers who misinterpret a situation and drag you all over the evals that administration looks at. For example, I had a student accuse me of being “clueless” about a change to the program I teach when the change had literally been released that morning. I teach night classes, work 9-5, and was assured by IT that the program wouldn’t convert to the new version until next week…and then it did anyway. I overly communicated what was going on and figured out the changes on the fly within 15 minutes, but of course the program reps don’t know anything about this because I don’t involve them in every tiny thing that happens, so all they see is “clueless.” Ugh. Other teachers tell me this happens all the time, my bosses have my back, it’s all good! But it will bug me for days on end. How do I disengage?

    1. Kramerica Industries*

      For me, I had to train my brain into thinking that these small negative feedback comments were irrelevant so I wouldn’t dwell: Your students are the ones who are clueless. It’s not even real feedback because they don’t have the facts correct. There’s nothing else you could have done to control the situation. Just disregard it.

      You just gotta tell yourself that in the grand scheme of things, this doesn’t matter because you’re doing a good job overall and will gladly take feedback where it is merited.

    2. ket*

      What I did one year is actually make a literal tally. Positive comments: 11111111111111. Negative comments: 11. Ok, look at that ratio! Remember the ratio. Look at the percent positive. Remind yourself of that big number.

    3. Thursday Next*

      In any class, there are going to be some students who misunderstand things, and mis-allocate responsibility for problems. Administration knows which structural issues aren’t in an instructor’s control; I don’t think they take comments about these issues seriously.

      But I understand being sensitive about feedback! I think it’s difficult to get a semster’s worth of evaluations, from multiple students, all at once.

    4. Dear liza dear liza*

      Have a trusted colleague read through your evals and only share positives and anything actionable. I’ve done this for professor friends, and they’ve done it for me.

    5. deesse877*

      Basically, there are 2 things I do:

      1) Arrange daily class procedures to minimize anxiety. Your population may be different, but with mine, when they fixate on something small it’s often because that thing stands for a larger sense of powerlessness or loss of control. So like, written agendas, written grading standards, 3+ in-class reminders for every due date. And then when something out of your control happens, you can also validate their frustration. Literally say, “I know it’s frustrating that X happened, but it won’t affect your grade because Y.”

      2) Tell them that you read the evals, and that you care about what they say. Tell them also that the form is really for the teaching, and not about stuff like scheduling, and you appreciate mature and serious responses. People often think they’re BS, that no one looks at them, etc., so they lash out. Some, not all, will control themselves better if they understand they’re not screaming into the void.

      There will always be some bad ones, regardless–I have had students tell straight-up lies twice (in a 17-year career), and it’s hard to forget those. Some schools and departments also develop student cultures of harshness or misogyny or racism or xenophobia. You can exercise *some* influence over the process, though.

  86. DaniCalifornia*

    I am past BEC levels with my coworker. She’s been here a year and still doesn’t know our processes. Or she refuses to do them the way we taught her and then complains. When I suggest doing it a different way she’s like Yeah and then proceeds to DO THE EXACT SAME THING she was doing before. I’ve lost all sympathy for her and have been muttering ‘Hmm’ and not breaking eye contact with my screens when she incessantly complains. Insanity. The conversations below happen at LEAST once a week.

    CW: Ugh I have like 5 clients wanting appts with boss and they never answer my emails and when they finally do they choose the slot that isn’t open anymore!
    Me: Yeah that’s annoying. Sometimes if I don’t hear back right away I call them and get an answer right then. Then I don’t have to deal with that situation.
    CW: Yeah…

    CW: Man the clients always sit on the wrong side of the table! Don’t they see that portfolio where boss should sit? (He prefers to sit on the side with less chairs so he can face them when he walks in, and clients have sometimes opened his portfolio?!?)
    Me: Oh yeah that is why I walk the client into the conference room and stand in front of his chair and direct them to the opposite side.
    CW: *Continues opening the door and then letting the client walk in alone* Ugh they sat on boss’ side again!
    Me: -_-

    CW: All these clients call and ask the same damn questions over and over and I can’t remember anything!
    Me: Well if you go into the very detailed OneNote I made it has answers for most of the questions they have and you can just search by keyword
    CW: That’s right! Oh I don’t know how you remember all this stuff. I’ll never remember to go look at this while I’m on the phone. I’ll just ask someone else to answer it.

    CW: I get so flustered when they ask to speak to boss and he’s not here. I know he doesn’t like me saying he’s working from home but I just get flustered and blurt it out. I hate answering the phone! Why do all these clients call in. I can’t get any work done!
    Me: *Internally screaming YOU WORK THE FRONT DESK, PHONES ARE YOUR MAIN RESPONSIBILITY!* Just tell them he’s unavailable. If they ask you specifics you just repeat ‘He’s unavailable, I can help you or take your question and find an answer.’ The clients don’t need the specifics of his calendar.
    CW: *Proceeds to tell the next person who asks about his schedule ‘Oh he’s at home today!’

    1. Rey*

      Are you her supervisor or her trainer? If you are, I think you need to be a lot more specific and concrete that, “This is how we expect you to do your job. These are our expectations and I need to see you improve in these areas by X date with Y consequences.” If you are not responsible for her, I would try and pass this onto your supervisor, especially the stuff about answering clients’ questions and telling the boss’s schedule. You could try and say, “CW has been here a year, and she has some habits that are different from how I was trained, like X and Y. She might need more guidance if she doesn’t realize what she’s doing wrong.”

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Not her supervisor just senior to her. Believe me I’ve tried. This new person is older than me by a lot and has become best friends with our supervisor (they vacation together) My suggestions, complaints, directives have led me nowhere with new person or supervisor. The reason I don’t address it anymore is fear of retaliation from supervisor and big boss doing nothing. Supervisor didn’t like it when I was concerned supervisor’s daughter wasn’t doing any work (she watched Netflix all day) and brought it up to supervisor with another coworker. I am 100% job searching due to the nepotism and inaction.

        1. Rey*

          Wow! No wonder you’ve reached BEC with her, and I can’t imagine having to listen to these questions all the time when you’re at work, knowing that she isn’t willing to do it the right way.

        2. RabbitRabbit*

          Can you redirect her to her supervisor? If you start shifting to a “yeah that sucks; since that’s not really my job maybe you could ask Supervisor for advice?” mode you may have to hear less BS.

          1. valentine*

            You don’t have to have these conversations, or even to care. Unless you’re penalized for silence, treat it like construction noise. If you must answer, though, you can turn it back on her: “What do you think you’ll do?” or feign support: “Maybe next time.”

  87. Em*

    My team likes to get into highly controversial conversations daily. In cases where I can’t walk away, what are some good general purpose “I want to talk but not about that” kind of things to say?
    Past controversial topics include immigration, “pc culture”, “snowflakes”, gender definitions, etc. They’re fairly conservative and I’m not.

    1. Funny Cide*

      This is rough! Makes me feel lucky that I’m pretty generally aligned with my team members.

      I’d suggest a clear “I would rather not discuss politicized issues at work, but what did you think about (new movie)…what did you do this weekend?” line.

    2. BRR*

      Depending on how much you want them to know you disagree, possibly start with “I’d prefer to not talk about such a [more professional word for contentious] topic” and then change the subject. Changing the subject is so incredibly effective. It’s helped me countless times. Just have a couple of go to scripts in your head for personal or professional topics to fall back on.

  88. Anon for this*

    I have a bit of a weird work dilemma. My husband and I have been very good friends with a couple for the better part of a decade. We were all part of a larger friend group. Everyone in the group was childfree by choice, except my husband and I, who did not have children but wanted them.

    Early in the year, we were lucky enough to become pregnant with a beautiful little girl. My friend was apparently so upset at us making this different life choice (one she knew we wanted) that she essentially broke up with me. It was sad and disappointing, but I accepted it.

    Then I found out she was so bothered by our choice to have a child, that she and her husband spread malicious rumors about me and my husband, telling everyone that he did not want our child. (He did. She was very loved and very wanted.)

    Then, my daughter was stillborn.

    Understandably, I hope, both my husband and I have a great deal of hurt and anger toward my former friend and her husband for their actions. I mostly have not focused on it, because my husband and I have been grieving the loss of our daughter. I have tried to forget this former friend exists. Until this week. When I found out she quit her job and obtained a position at my company. She is not in my department, but there is a good chance we will have to work together in the future. To further complicate things, a manager in her new department has been trying to recruit me, and until this moment, I had planned to make that change when the position was officially available to me.

    My questions are:

    1) How should I treat her in a professional setting? We were good friends for years, so I can’t pretend I don’t know her. But I don’t think I can stomach being incredibly friendly. I don’t know what to do.

    2) Should I turn down the new position? It would be a good move for me, but where I am isn’t horrible, and I’m not sure how well I would do working with her every day.

    1. Myrin*

      Goodness gracious, Anon, I’m so incredibly sorry! I sadly don’t have any advice but wanted to let you know that I’m appalled by your former friends actions and wish you and your husband all the best during your time of grief and for the future!

    2. Psyche*

      1) Be cool and professional. You don’t have to pretend you don’t know her but you also don’t have to acknowledge that you used to be friends.
      2) It depends on how your interactions with her go. It doesn’t sound like they have an offer for you right now, so you can see how well you interact at work and whether it is just too painful. If you did transfer, you would probably have to be a little more friendly to her or it would be incredibly awkward for everyone and could reflect on you. Being very cool to someone in your own department is much more noticeable than if it someone your rarely interact with.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yes, I work for a huge corporation, so things move slowly. I think it will be at least 2 or 3 months before I would actually move into a new position. I should probably just see how things go and use that as a guide for whether I would be able to work with her day to day.

    3. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Do you think there’s any chance that you could talk the department out of going through with hiring her? TBH that was my first instinctive response to your situation. I am so sorry they turned into such crappy people. There is no excuse for that behavior. It’s disgusting. As someone who was childless by choice for a long time but now wants kids, I’ve always been paranoid about this happening with our other childless by choice friends.

      1. Not Maeby But Surely*

        (By talking them out of hiring her, I meant explaining what she did to you. It would be incredibly hard to have that conversation with a boss, but honestly it’s something they should be aware of if you’re expected to work with said person regularly.)

        1. Anon for this*

          This could have been an idea, except I didn’t find out this was happening until she was already here. :(

          And, just for your reference, all of our other childfree by choice friends were very excited for us and supportive, even though they would never make that choice themselves. I do think that my friend and her husband are unique in their awfulness. Honestly, it’s so bizarre to me I almost didn’t post because I thought people would assume I made it up.

          1. valentine*

            Anon for this, you may want to get ahead of the message by telling someone she spread rumors when you worked with her and more recently. I would worry she wants to be in your space. Even if she wants to be friends again, seizing on your workplace is inappropriate and weird. If you had to choose, would you rather have the new role but be stuck with her on your team, or just avoid her without regret? Given she moves often and is a horrendous person, I think you will win in the end, so taking the role makes sense. Don’t let her stop you doing anything you want. She’s so objectively awful, maybe she can’t hide that and that will work in your favor. But don’t have personal dealings with her. Keep it all at work and as public as possible. She walks in the bathroom to corner you? You walk out. No she said/she said.

            Not Maeby But Surely, even if you have a friend who doesn’t want to interact with parents, you’re unlikely to have one as awful as this. This behavior is really out there, like a perfect storm of hatred and jealousy, that it’s more about this one person than about being childfree.

      2. Snow Drift*

        This NOT normal behavior for a childfree person. Please do not worry that a regular CF person would do something so evil. Being childfree is a lot like being vegan–a loud wackadoo minority strongly influences the public opinion of the whole.

    4. Catleesi*

      I’m so sorry for the loss of your daughter. I hope that in time you and your husband can find some peace.

      Your anger towards your former friend is completely justified. What she did was absolutely awful. I think you need to really evaluate whether you could interact with her every day, and what that would do to your emotional well-being. If/when you do interact with her I would say don’t ignore the fact that you know her, but you are not under any obligation to be warm to her. Cool and polite is not unprofessional.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you. This is a good reminder! I’m going to have to practice my deep breathing. Maybe then I can pull off cool and polite ;)

    5. SUCH a rejection letter!*

      Well, acting “incredibly friendly” to anyone in a work setting could be problematic, for what that’s worth.

      But have you actually talked to this former friend? Have you actually said to her “I understand from XYZ that you have been saying ABC. If that’s true, it’s so cruel that I don’t know what to say. Is it true?” (And then, no matter WHAT her answer is, you can still stop being her friend.)

      You can also say “And you’ve been hired at My Company, yes? Please understand that I’m a professional, and if we cross paths I’ll be professional, but I can’t see being friendly.”

      1. Youth*

        Yeah.

        What your former friend did is unspeakable, but you might feel (marginally) better if you talk directly to her and tell her how much she hurt you. It may then be easier for you to just treat her like any other coworker you’re not especially friendly with.

    6. Asenath*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your loss.

      For your ex-friend, all you have to do is be cool, polite and professional. Treat her like any other acquaintance who just got hired. That will not be mistaken for pretending you don’t know her, or, at the other extreme, being very friendly.

      If the job is good enough, you might go for it. But if you can delay it a bit (or if it takes a while for it to become available), that might be better because it will give you some practice in the “just hired acquaintance” approach, and you will have a better feel on whether or not you can work more closely with her.

    7. Traveling Teacher*

      Oh my word, Anon for this! First, I’m so sorry for your loss.

      Second, I think that treating her in a strictly professional sense is appropriate. I do find it very odd that she quit her job and came to work at your company. I would keep an eye on her and meet with your current manager soon in a factual way (similar to what you wrote here) to tell them about what she did to you. Personally, I would be somewhat worried about what rumors former friend might start at your company, as it sounds like she has a very warped sense of reality, and if your manager is reasonable, maybe they can shield you from working directly or one-on-one with this person without it being obvious.

      1. Anon for this*

        It isn’t surprising that she left her job. She tends to move around every couple years. But I am really surprised (and upset) she picked my company. I am a little wary of her possibly trying to spread rumors here. I have seen her do that in one other job years ago – but back then I believed her stories.

        Anyway, thanks for the advice. Just talking through this makes me feel a little better about it.

        1. WellRed*

          I doubt she’ll spread rumors about you, but echoing other advice to be cool and professional. Honestly, her behavior was so bizarre! I wonder if there’s any tiny little part of her that feels guilty about her comments in light of what happened.

          Sorry for your loss.

    8. She Who Must Not Be Named*

      I’m so, so sorry for your loss.

      You probably shouldn’t do what I would do which is slash her tyres and drop laxatives in her lunch.

      I wonder if you can have a quiet word with Manager, presuming she is someone you can trust. Give Manager a heads up that Ex Friend has a history of spreading rumours. If I were the manager I would definitely want to know. I have zero patience for shit like this and prefer not to have such toxic people working in my team. No matter how brilliant they are with everything else.

    9. ..Kat..*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      Personally, I would be unable to work in the same department with a person who treated me this way. Unless you can really limit your interactions with her, I don’t think you should transfer to her department. Also, having dealt with people like this before, I can tell you it is not uncommon for someone like this to launch an attack at you with the rest of her department.

  89. SUCH a rejection letter!*

    I got this rejection letter on Monday, and I’ve been saving it to share here. It’s just so wonderful! (for snarky values of “wonderful”). The best/worst part is that the opening paragraph and the closing are fine! It’s just that middle paragraph, oy! My application to this job INVIGORATED them! But clearly they need to hire an editor (me, but they lost out).

    Thank you for applying to (Start Up Company) and giving us the opportunity to consider you for our team. We reviewed your background, and unfortunately, it’s not a match for our hiring needs at the moment.

    We recognize there are many options out there, and we want you to know we genuinely value your interest in working here. In line with our core value that People Come First at (Start Up Company), we are invigorated by your interest in revamping the consumer financial industry for all and would love to stay in touch as we grow. Our company is constantly evolving, and there may be a position available for you down the line.

    Wishing you the best of luck on your job search.

    Sincerely,
    (Start Up Company) Talent Team

    2. The New Wanderer*

      The middle paragraph is basically “Please don’t hate us for not picking you, we’re still friends, right?”

      Hopefully as they grow, they will learn to stick with the opening/closing, and done.

  90. Student with mental health disabilities*

    I am a regular poster but because of this question, I am going anonymous because I’m paranoid the details could be identifiable because I’ve talked about my job in some detail here. (I will use “this person” or “they” to keep the gender private)

    So I work as a part-time instructor for a state-run facility for adults with a specific disability. One of our students has mental health issues, which presents as significant mood swings – one minute this person is talking excitedly, sometimes barging in to a class or office in a disruptive manner. The next minute, they’ll be all agitated and griping about everything.

    So in the last week, after about 2.5 months of this, we finally asked this person to get a psychiatric evaluation and seek treatment. At first, we were told the person was going to be out “until further notice”. I was relieved, thinking they’d be gone for at least several weeks while getting appropriate evaluation and treatment. Well, there’s a good chance the student will be returning Monday! Say what now??!

    I’m all for giving people with mental health disabilities the opportunity to benefit from programs and services – that’s one of the anti-discrimination provisions in the ADA. To be honest, however, I also think there is a point where you just cannot accommodate a person if their issues get to a point of being chronically disruptive. It’s unfair to instructors, other students, and even administrative / managerial staff.

    It’s still “tentative”, but I wouldn’t surprised if this person is back on Monday. What’s more, she isn’t even on next week’s schedule, which is REALLY going to foul things up. Yes, it’s important to be flexible, but I’m at my wits end with this situation.

    Gut check: Am I right to be annoyed (it’s one of several things that annoy me at this job) or should I just chill out? lol.

    1. LGC*

      You’re…understandably annoyed. I’ve had similar issues with my employees.

      Did they tell you how the client would be brought back in? It sounds like they need an aide with them for at least the first week. Also, you mentioned that this had been going on for two and a half months – is that when the client started, or did they start off well beforehand and then they deteriorated?

      I ask because that REALLY affects how you should see this. I feel like it’s too soon to kick the client out of the program from what you said (easy for me to say over the internet) – this is the first time the client has addressed the problem behavior, and it doesn’t sound like the situation is unsafe (just extremely annoying). But if they’re just going to bring the client back without at least short term support, that’s unfair to everyone (including the client).

      1. Student with mental health disabilities*

        Two and a half months is when the client started. The client has been this way the entire time. And it is the center administration who have initiated the decision to have the client evaluation. I’m not sure how agreeable the client is to all of this because they’ll agree one minute and disagree the next. So day-to-day, you have no idea what you’re going to get.

        I personally have not felt unsafe but there have been verbal altercations with one other student. This other student just finished the program, so maybe the managers feel that with this other student gone, things will improve. I highly doubt it though. We have been told that if this student says anything threatening, that’d be cause for immediate dismissal. We shall see….

        1. LGC*

          To be honest…again, I’m only looking at this over the Internet, so I’m not there myself. And I’m not a mental health professional. (I work in vocational rehab, so Very Unprofessional Clients is A Thing for me. Without going into potentially identifying detail: I’ve had to supervise multiple people who have done things that I would have immediately banned them for.)

          But it sounds like the big problem – the student’s mood swings – might already be in the process of being addressed. The way this is being treated seriously suggests that the student has an untreated (and possibly undiagnosed) mood disorder, and getting that stabilized might fix a lot of the issues! If I had to guess, that’s probably the thinking of management/counseling. But you still have the issue of the inappropriate behavior – and support should be provided for that as well until they know the cause of it. Hopefully, things go well on Monday, and your job realizes that they also need to provide some help.

          And hopefully, maybe it’s as simple as getting the student’s mood stabilized, and they can be successful!

          1. valentine*

            It sounds like they work there. Are they a student worker? Either way, can they not be limited in time and space, going only to their classrooms or workspaces during their scheduled time and reducing the griping?

            1. Student with mental health disabilities*

              Sorry, I know it’s a little confusing since I’m keeping details vague to protect the privacy of the student and my employer.

              This is not a college / university program. We teach independent living and vocational skills to adults with a particular disability. This person is not a student worker.

    2. Girl friday*

      Do you have a more restrictive setting option? There’s always a mean, and then there’s the outliers. You don’t have a right to have only the people that meet the mean present, but you should have options for people who fall on the very outer ranges. Both good and difficult.

  91. It's a fish, Al*

    This week, myself and all my co-workers in the same position (contractors all) got an email from our supervisor (who calls themself our boss, we call them the contractor coordinator, this place has lots of problems) that we were required to send thank you messages to our grandbosses. The wording used was something like a “gratitude flashmob”, so the department heads would all get these messages at the same time.

    I’d just like some confirmation from the internet that telling me I need to send a thank you note, like I am five years old instead of the independent business owner I am, is all kinds of nutty.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I totally read this as :
        “Dear Grandboss,

        Supervisor said we need to send you a note of gratitude. Here it is. It’s a fish.

        Al”

        Which is most definitely NOT the same thing but also something much more hilarious. I really enjoy the mental image of just sending a fish to someone as a thank you.

    2. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      From my corner of the internet:
      That is nonsense, your contractor coordinator is a weirdo on a power trip who probably thinks that they deserve a “gratitude flashmob,” and if I were one of your grandbosses my response would be an incredulous “who coordinated this strangeness and why aren’t they doing their actual job?”

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I’m guessing the supervisor probably imagines that the grandbosses will say “who coordinated this awesomeness and why aren’t they getting a raise right now?”

        Yeah, that’s just silly.

    3. It's a fish, Al*

      It threw me for a real loop because the original email said that we should send a thank you note to our support team – makes total sense, absolutely, that’s why I already did it.

      But no, they meant support team like our supervisors. All of whom support us, I guess, but that’s not really the usual dynamic about how thank you notes flow.

      “Dear boss, thanks for continuing to renew my contract? And like, not trip me? I guess?”

    4. dramalama*

      Co-signed: telling adults they need to write thank you notes is weird. Even if I were on the receiving end of a “gratitude flashmob” I would find it well-intentioned but weird, up until I found out everyone was told they had to do it, at which point it would be full-on weird.

    5. Kes*

      Ugh, I’d be weirded out and annoyed by that too. Nobody should tell employees they have to express gratitude to their boss. And it’s even weirder given you’re contractors

  92. wingmaster*

    I’m excited that I will be traveling abroad for my job! I knew with my current position, there would be no travelling. I’ve only been in my role for about 8 months now, so I’m also surprised that I’ve been scheduled to travel. Maybe there’s going to be a promotion for me….? We’ll see. Also, it’s Peru that I’ll be traveling to.

  93. Anonymous, who wants to go to college*

    I think this is okay for Friday open thread, but my apologies if it’s not. I’d like to hear about some real-life experiences with being an adult with an established career (in my case, >15 years at same company, started when I was 18) going to college (with the intent of either changing careers entirely, or being able to move up the ladder in the current field). I’ve never been to college so I would be a first time attendee. I know to fill out a FAFSA. I know what I want to major in (Spanish). I am interested in possibly going to law school after a BS in Spanish, depending on how the college life suits me. I think I’d probably quit my FT job and find decent paying PT work that could be arranged around my school schedule, though there’s a chance my current employer would work with me. I will most certainly have to get student loans, unless I win the lottery. My goal would be to pay them off as I go while in school, and then really hammer down on them when I get a job in the new field. My main questions are for those who have done similar: 1) in hindsight, was the expense of time/money worth it? 2) would you do it again if you could have a redo? 3) is there anything about the process that didn’t occur to you before you made the leap that you wish someone had told you about?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I work as a career counselor at a university that attracts a lot of adult students. It’s more common than you think! There are many options you can pursue with a Spanish major if you decide to not go to law school. O*Net is a great resource where you can search majors/fields and see their outlooks.

      Absolutely research your schools. What will a Spanish major require? Many foreign language majors require a study abroad component, and many majors are now requiring an internship experience. What is the population like? Some schools don’t attract many adult learners and therefore are less prepared to handle your needs. Could you find a program that’s 100% online and still work FT, or are you looking for a more traditional, on campus experience? Are you interested in starting at a community college and then transferring to a 4 year school, which may save some money (especially if the CC and 4Year have transfer agreements)? Good luck!

      1. Not Maeby But Surely*

        I will definitely look into what is required for a Spanish major. I was not thinking that study abroad might be a required aspect, but it makes sense, and when I was looking through scholarships I found several geared toward covering the expenses associated with study abroad, so that’s cool. I don’t care about the college experience for the sake of itself (as in, dorms/parties/clubs). I do want to give it my all – whatever that takes, and I assumed that would mean not being dedicated to a FT exempt, salaried job. (Plus I am looking for a change from my current role, so this would provide a natural time to depart.) If I go through with this, it’s basically part of my plan to start at a local CC and then academic transfer to the state university in my town. Not too interested in doing a 100% online program just because I think it would be too easy for me to go the procrastinate>cram>slide-by-juuust-barely route that I saw one of my friends go. Thank you so much for your thoughtful response! Logically I know this is not uncommon, but if feels like such a huge step to -me- that I’m stymied by it.

        1. not-so-anon from this post*

          Well so much for being anon on this. And I also meant to make my other reply to someone else, not this post. Think I’ll wait to respond to the rest until I can get my act together. Oh boy.

        2. ..Kat..*

          Starting at community college is smart. Just make sure that the four year college you have your eye on accepts credits from the community college.

          Have you considered starting classes part time while still working full time as a way to cut back on student debt? Also, cut back on current expenses as much as you can.

          Good luck with this new phase of your life!

      2. anon from this post*

        Wise words, and a perfect example of why I’ll wait to decide about law school until I’m well on my way to a Bachelor’s. Thanks.

    2. No 1 Cat Parent*

      If you have not firmly decided on a place, I would prioritize finding a college that has tuition deals for employees. Sometimes the pay is bad, but not always, the schedules are usually flexible, and when you factor tuition as part of the pay that really helps. As you have experience you might qualify for staff positions. Alternatively finding a place to work that will cover part of your tuition as a part of your benefit package.

      I worked through undergrad and it took a while to get through. Now I am in grad school and I have a tuition waiver for the university I go to through my spouse and a tuition waiver for a university I don’t go to through my part time work. Particularly at universities and some non-profits it is a popular benefit. I just have to pay fees.

    3. Joielle*

      My only advice is on the law school side – don’t go unless you specifically want to practice law. A number of my law school classmates went because they weren’t sure what they wanted to do and thought it would give them transferrable skills… which it does, but it’s a REALLY expensive way to get those skills and non-legal jobs are wary of hiring someone they assume will jump ship for a law firm as soon as they can. I loved law school and I love my job now, but I’m really, really lucky and even at that, I’ll likely be paying off my loans for another 20 years.

      1. not-so-anon from this post*

        I accidentally replied to the wrong comment earlier, but I will take your advice to heart!

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I can’t answer all of the questions but I am early 30’s and completing college online PT while I work a FT job. It’s through ASU so it’s an accredited and worthy school that I’ll get a degree from. Classes are 7 weeks and I love it. There is no time to get bored and I can take 2 classes in a normal semester. It’s also cheaper on the wallet as I do not want any loans. While I am drained a lot and it’s slow going I am determined to finish (I did the go to school, quit, go to school, quit thing from 18-24) I am a professional admin and want to go into design so it’s a big career change. The one thing I haven’t figured out yet is internships. My college coach said it would be good to have one but I just can’t figure out how with a FT job.

      I think the expense/time has been worth it. It’ll take me 6 years to finish instead of the normal 4 but I’m okay with that if I don’t have any loans. Too many of my friends are 10 years into their career and still have loans. I’m glad I started this and it’s made me manage my time better. I’m also meeting a lot of people in my classes who are spread out around the country and are my age. It’s a good support to see that.

      One thing when I’ve been interviewing for jobs is I have a full resume with 3 decent length jobs and my expected school year. I guess some people have been confused because they see an expected graduation date of 2020 and yet I say I have 12 years experience and they don’t put 2 and 2 together that I’m probably a non traditional student. I’ve been asked about that a lot.

    5. Seifer*

      Oooh. So I did things a little out of order compared to how you’re doing them here, but hopefully my experience can help. I started a new job in a new field last year and then just this past summer, decided to go back to college to advance. Personally, my thoughts on college were that it’s a waste of time and money, and I still kind of feel that way when I get frustrated with my classes, BUT I am going for it because my boss put it in a way that finally made sense to me: he interviewed me and decided to take a chance on me because he felt that I was bright and could accomplish things. Not everyone will give me the luxury of that conversation. So ultimately, I think it will be worth it, and honestly, I’m considering continuing after I graduate next year.

      Things I know now that I think are important: you don’t have to go full time. I go to an online school and I take two classes per semester and pay less than $1K per class out of pocket. I do this because I found that the juggling of full time work and full time school is HARD. When I was freshly 21, I was able to work 50+ hours per week between two jobs while taking four classes at a university supplemented by two classes online at community college. It’s only been a few years since that, and I literally cannot do that now. It exhausts you in a way that you don’t realize until you’re in the thick of it. And honestly, I prefer the full time work, part time school, because full time school doesn’t provide me with health insurance and I like independence. I turned 26 this year so can’t get back on my parents’ insurance, and I moved out a few years ago and don’t want to move back in with them. Doing it this way takes longer, sure, but when I graduate, I like knowing that I won’t owe anyone anything.

      I still have student loans from that previous stint in college. But with my current full time job, I’m able to juggle paying those, paying for new college courses, and paying my rent, and I wouldn’t give that up for anything. But this part is completely up to you. I’m just outlining what’s worked for me. And good luck! This is a huge step.

      1. not-so-anon from this post*

        You make a good point about the endurance it takes to juggle everything at once. I definitely don’t have the endless energy I seemed to have in my early 20s. I’ll have to be alert to the signs of burnout. This provided a helpful perspective, thank you!

    6. Mrs. Picklesby*

      I am adult learner who got my AA in person at a well-known local college, and now I’m working to get my BS 100% online through my state university. I chose to continue working while going to school. Right now I am taking accelerated 7-week courses, 2 per semester, mostly for financial reasons but also because I recently started a new job.

      At both universities, the foreign language classes are only available in person and require 3-4 sessions per week, usually for about 1-2 hours.

      I highly suggest starting with the core general education classes that are needed for most degrees. That way if you change your major down the road–it happens– you aren’t stuck having to take more required courses. Core classes are easily transferred from one degree to another.

      My best advice is to know your limits. My schools said to expect to devote at least 10 hours per week per class. That factors in attendance, reading, homework, and studying. One classmate said he started with a full course load, and it was too much. That said, I know a 50+ year old woman who works full-time and goes to class 4 night a week. I am very introverted and could not handle more than 2 at a time.

      I love school, and just getting my AA helped me advance in my career. May you enjoy your journey and keep your goal in sight. Good luck!

  94. Lady Dedlock*

    For those who have direct reports, what are you getting them for the holidays this year, and how much are you spending?

    1. Mouse in the House*

      Not a helpful comment, sorry, but what field do you work in where you give gifts? I’m at a membership-based non-profit and we happen to not do gift giving for direct reports. I’m curious!

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        I work at a college. I’m not sure what others do here, gifting-wise. My boss used to do nothing but has given us chocolates in the past couple of years. He’s not big on appreciative gestures in general, though, so I don’t necessarily want to use him as my benchmark.

        1. Mouse in the House*

          Oh interesting! That sounds like a nice thing to do. Could you give $5 – $10 gift cards to Starbucks or something? Or something little from the bookstore? I’m terrible with gift ideas – I usually get people gift cards so they can get something they like.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Also work at a college. This year, my boss and I did lunch out, and he paid. It was a nice surprise. Grandboss gave us all the Friday before break off, which was super unexpected but greatly appreciated!

      My boss in my old job generally gave me a nice gift card to a local restaurant, which I also really enjoyed (he also knew where my husband and I liked to go, which helped). Grandboss in that job always gave a large container of nuts…which usually got dragged to whatever holiday party we had that weekend and left there.

      My only direct report is our work study, so this may not work for you, but we got her a bookstore gift card, university branded water bottle and ornament which looks all stained-glass and cool.

    3. Workerbee*

      I got my employee one of those margarita slush mixes, a fuzzy ornament, a small batch of homemade cookies, and a personalized holiday card. I had checked beforehand with one of her cronies as to whether an alcohol-related gift would be appropriate, as you never know what people have going on, and was assured that she’d love it.

      My employee is the type to give personalized gifts with great attention to detail, or I’d have gone the gift card route myself. I figure people often give what they like to get. #NotAllPeople

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      In my previous job I had 2 direct reports. I took them to a nearby dessert restaurant for cake and coffee (during work hours). We were a friendly group so it was nice to relax and hear everyone’s plans for the holidays. This is definitely a know your employees kind of situation – we all like cake and are all sociable at work, so no awkwardness.

  95. yams*

    Just made it another week without storming out in anger and quitting, so I think I deserve if not a raise, at the very least a very, very stiff drink.

  96. Overeducated*

    How do you figure out how much to roll with “other duties as assigned” vs saying “not my job”? My boss has asked what I and a couple coworkers think about committing to a pretty large amount of grunt work in a short time frame (think scanning decades of records) so that another team can compile and analyze the data. We are professional level staff and we don’t have assistants or admins who can help, but apparently it’s not part of this other team’s responsibilities either. I asked the boss whether that was a higher priority than the other work it would strain or push out, and he said he wants our recommendation. I think we need more information about the project to figure out if there is a possible sampling approach instead of all-or-nothing, so that is my next question.

    I am very hesitant to commit to doing all of this, but I can’t tell how much of this is me being a poor team player, and how much is legit. My emotions are clouding things because I am a highly trained scientist, so the idea of switching my focus for a month to making copies so that other people can analyze the data is off-putting, and being asked to make recommendations without being told anything about the research approach and methods is frustrating. But I recognize that “I have a PhD and you want me to spend how many days making copies?” is not a great look. Is it ever ok to say “I just don’t think this is the best use of my time?”

    1. Amber Rose*

      You can literally say that. “Because I’m doing work on X, Y and Z right now, and I feel that splitting my attention between that and the document scanning is not the best use of my time.”

      Aside from that, can you not recommend that the company hire a couple temp workers to do this? It doesn’t sound like skilled work, so it shouldn’t be too hard to find some.

      1. Overeducated*

        The funding for temp workers would have to come out of the funding for the other team’s project, and I don’t really have any standing to make recommendations on that, unfortunately; it’s also way too time sensitive at this point to try to hire, even a temp. It occurs to me that my manager may be asking for recommendations because he’s realized this is not a great spot to put us in and is legitimately unsure what to do.

        1. SUCH a rejection letter!*

          Yes, but surely *your* time would *also* come out of that teams project? And surely your time is more expensive than that of the temps? And probably the temps would do it faster anyway? Run all this by your boss, who may be thinking more of politics than of budgets.

          It does NOT take much time to hire a temp. (Although if you don’t have them set up as a vendor that would take time.) You don’t have to interview them, you just have to tell the agency what you want. Tell them you need “a self-starter with scanning skills”. The temps get the assignments with very little notice, sometimes just “tomorrow show up to x place”.

        2. Gumby*

          Am I correct that other team needs to use the data for their own project? For some reason they do not believe scanning the documents that contain the data they want is their responsibility. They want it to magically get scanned w/o them doing the work themselves or, apparently, paying anyone to do it? Because the world doesn’t work that way.

          I work at a company that has multiple concurrent projects. If Jane works on A for 5 hours and B for 3 in a particular day then A pays 62.5% of her salary and 37.5% of her salary for that day. Many of our projects are government contracts so it’s pretty important that we accurately charge labor to the appropriate project.

          So if a temp document scanner would come out of their project budget then so should your salary for the portion of your time spent doing work that supports their project. If the other team is thinking of you as free labor that seems problematic. If you actually would be “free” labor to that project, perhaps a different system is needed? (Also, it becomes a much more attractive option to get temps when the alternative is to pay someone a much higher salary to do the same work.)

          1. Overeducated*

            Due to the way my job is funded, on the financial side my time IS free time and free labor, in that it is charged to the same account no matter what I work on. The cost of my time is the work I don’t get done, so I guess I have to push the value of that core work in comparison to the marginal value of a larger sample. In contrast, the other team’s time is paid out of specific funding allocated for this project, so if actually gathering the data sources was not written into their budget, yes this seems like a project design issue.

            On the bright side my supervisor did share the scope today, so when I have time I’ll read through and see if I can figure out what is the minimum necessary for a good result.

    2. Overeducated*

      Just want to note that I don’t normally say “that’s grunt work” on a day-to-day basis, again given no assistants or admins – I do tons of copying and filing and general organizational and administrative work quickly and without complaint. It’s the scale that’s an issue here.

      1. Kes*

        I think that’s very reasonable – it doesn’t sound like the best use of your time, and in particular I find it hard to believe they really want you to stop doing your normal job for a month, in order to do this work scanning documents. I would definitely push back on this.

    3. Binky*

      This is precisely the sort of project that you hire temps for. I’d compile a list of the responsibilities that you’d have to delay if you took on this project, and suggest hiring a couple of temps who can devote their attention full-time to the grunt work. Then everything gets done more efficiently.

      But before you do that – what’s your read on your boss? Reasonable? Prone to pose orders as requests and then hold grudges when someone doesn’t understand? And I’d definitely talk to your co-workers, cause any push back would be better coming from the group.

    4. Psyche*

      I would find it extremely off putting to be asked to spend a month scanning things when it isn’t even my project. If it really is that much work, then you need to hire a temp to do it (maybe an undergrad if you work at a university). If you are in an academic lab, it really matters who will actually use and analyze the data (and thereby actually get some benefit from the work). It sounds like the other team needs to send some people over to do the scanning.

      1. Psyche*

        Also, if he is specifically asking what you think of this, tell him the truth. This is not a good use of your time and not what you were hired to do. If it would take a day, that might be reasonable. But “other duties as assigned” generally doesn’t mean displacing your actual job duties.

        1. Overeducated*

          Thanks for the gut check, I appreciate hearing that my hesitation here is not unreasonable.

          It’s not an academic lab project, and in theory it’s my organization’s decision makers, not the research team, who will ultimately benefit from the analysis. But I think you’ve pinpointed that the echo of the assistant/PI dynamic is what made me react negatively on an emotional level in addition to workload.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Nobody’s brought this up, so I’m going to ask: How many people on the team that wants the documents scanned are men, and how many people on *your* team who are going to have to scan the documents are women? If it’s lopsided in favor of the men (i.e., men on the requesting team, women on the fulfillment team), and if politics is a “thing” for your boss, you might want to point this out, and suggest that the optics for the company are not going to look good. Depending on your supervisor’s reaction to that (and since it seems like your team is not going to be able to get out from under this duty, regardless of whether it’s the whole document set or a sampling), maybe you can at least negotiate a more equitable provision of the work between the teams, so, you know, your office doesn’t look quite so much like it’s practicing casual sexism. Please let us know what you decided to do, and how it worked out.

      1. Twin Cities*

        Overeducated hasn’t disclosed their gender. On top of that, nothing that has been said even remotely points to sexism.

        1. valentine*

          Great questions, though.

          Overeducated, you can suggest temps, despite the funding issue. They want your opinion; there it is. Hiring temps should be as easy as requesting people proficient with your scanner.

  97. Ainomiaka*

    My direct boss left a monthish ago. Her position is finally posted. How do I indicate that I want to still be considered for promotion opportunities, but not that one? I wouldn’t be a great candidate. I just started my job (internal move) 6 months ago, I am currently 8 months pregnant and this job would be knowing the regulations I currently do plus a big set of other ones that I have never had to deal with before. It’s also on a career ladder that is lower paid than my current one.
    I am overall entirely comfortable not applying for this job right now. I just want tips to make sure that it doesn’t get considered a long term lack of desire or worse a desire for a “mommy track.”

    1. Kes*

      Has anyone talked to you about this position, or indicated they think you should apply? They may already be aware it’s not the best fit or timing, but if they do bring it up, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that you don’t think this position is the best fit, and indicate what positions/ladder you are interested in working on progressing towards.

  98. Snickerdoodle*

    I have a coworker who does not do well when told she’s wrong (e.g. loudly checking several websites right in front of me when I corrected her on a minor non-work-related topic once, and she still tried to twist the facts to fit her theory).

    My job consists largely of data entry and/or reviewing others’ work once they’ve submitted it. This coworker consistently does such a bad job with her data entry that I have to redo it every single time. There’s so much information missing or entered incorrectly that it clearly wasn’t entered at all, just copy/pasted from the previous work without being checked, edited, or saved correctly. I have rolled my eyes and corrected the work in the past, but it’s growing more annoying because I have other duties to address. I also know that I’ll eventually move on from this position, and then somebody else will have to deal with it.

    That said, I have tried to deal with it before, and it did NOT go well. There was an infamous incident a year ago when I pointed out a TON of errors she’d made and fixed them all. I had only made notes in the margins and re-entered the data in the system and dropped her a very brief email along the lines of “FYI, I found xyz mistakes and corrected them,” and she FLIPPED OUT and emailed the boss and me saying she needed to do her own data entry because she knew her work the best and that I’d screwed everything up. I met with the boss about it and provided screen shots of my correct work to prove I was right. Nothing came of it, at least in part because the coworker was dealing with several very difficult personal matters at the time, so I took that into account. Nevertheless, it was inappropriate behavior, and I have remembered that episode and borne it in mind when documenting my own corrections to her work.

    Knowing how abrasive this coworker is when directly confronted, I tried a vague approach first. Yesterday in a meeting, I reminded everyone to be careful with data entry because I consistently see the same kind of mistakes. The coworker privately approached me later wanting to know who the culprit was (!) and said she knew it couldn’t be her because she was meticulous (!!). She also told me that when I see data entry mistakes, I should take the work back to the person who did it and make them fix it. I did tell her I’d found mistakes in her work before; she concluded that the problem was our system not saving her work correctly. –eyeroll– Part of me wants to sit her down and go over the whole thing and make her do it correctly; a much bigger part of me wants to just go on fixing it without saying anything because it’s easy enough even if it’s a nuisance, and it’s infinitely better than dealing with her sh!t.

    I know, however, that just fixing it myself forever isn’t a real solution. Taking it to her directly to deal with has NOT worked, and I hesitate to get the boss involved because he will logically want to fix it, and the last time that happened, she threw an absolute fit, which I want to avoid. I don’t think it’s a good idea to never say anything, though.

    If I drop off her incorrect work to make her fix it, I’ll most likely end up redoing it anyway while listening to a bunch of abrasive crap; that’s what has consistently happened before. If I tell the boss, the same thing will probably happen. Continuing to redo her work without alerting anyone is kicking the can down the road. What does everyone suggest I do?

    1. DaffyDuck*

      Do not correct her errors for her. You could point them out and let her correct them herself if you want to be nice, if she is snarky about it then don’t bother. I suggest you let the boss know that she continues to make a significant number of errors and how it impacts your job directly. Her throwing a fit is not your problem, let the boss know if she does it at you – boss can deal with it if it is at boss. It is part of bosses job to train or find an employee who can do the job.

    2. Ali G*

      Make her fix it. If she wants to throw a fit in front of your boss every time that’s on her not you. I wouldn’t do it in person. I would do what you did last time, and email it back to her, pointing out the mistakes asking her to correct them. If she tries to convince you that she’s right, tell her you don’t have time to argue, please just go fix your work. you said you have been documenting the errors you’ve corrected, so when she goes to your Boss bring that with you. Show your boss how much stuff you’ve corrected, what the problems were this most recent time, and make her deal with it.
      In fact, I would loop your boss in. Tell her what’s been going on, and let her know that you will copying her on the emails back to the coworker when errors need to be fixed. You’ve been covering for co-worker too long. Boss might not even know the extent of it. You shouldn’t have to deal with it.

    3. Snickerdoodle*

      I may have been unclear on the nature of the work I’m correcting. What I’m doing is a peer review of data entry, meaning I’m SUPPOSED to correct errors; that’s the point of checking each other’s work. The problem is that she’s not acknowledging that she’s making errors in the first place. What should be a simple check and maybe correcting a couple of things here and there is actually work that has so many mistakes she may as well have not done it at all.

      I have a one on one with my boss next week and will bring it up then. He can deal with her.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Definitely a good way to phrase it to your boss. “I know my job is to catch errors in the data entry and fix them, but I’m finding that Lucinda’s work is often incomplete or recycled from a previous version without updates or even corrections that I made previously, and it’s taking X more hours to correct her work than anyone else’s. (Or, her error rate is Y times larger than anyone else’s, or whatever good metric you have) I’ve tried to talk to Lucinda about double-checking her work but she loudly berates my suggestions because she says there are no errors when clearly there are.” And show before/after examples with your corrections in red font, circled, highlighted, or whatever makes sense. What you want out of it is to get a higher quality product from her in the first place without having to deal with her complaints, pushback, and denial.

        She’s being obnoxious and not doing her job. That should be your boss’s problem, not yours.

          1. valentine*

            That’s a great script. Also mention how long it takes to do her work (not redo, as she’s not done it). If you can set a minimum-error, do so, and return to her anything above that (so, all her work) to correct. If your boss says to fix it all, tell him it’ll come at the cost of xyz other work. It’s up to him if he wants you to spin your wheels. I hope you can move on soon because he’s part of the problem. And brace yourself for her to suddenly have multiple crises to make you look mean or get your boss to back off of telling her to do her work and to do it properly.

    4. Eleanor Konik*

      Your boss can’t fix what he doesn’t know about. It doesn’t really sound like you’ve given him a genuine chance to address her behavior. Is it actually your job to sit her down and teach her? Are you supervisory in some way? It didn’t sound like it.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        No, it’s the other way around. She originally trained me on how to do data entry and was my mentor when I started, and she’s considered senior to me. Her knowing how to do it doesn’t mean she’s doing it correctly. It seems like she’s just copying and pasting and not bothering to see if it’s correct.

    5. Annie Edison*

      I had a very similar situation to this.

      One of my approaches was to play dumb with my coworker. Instead of telling her her mistakes (which upset her), I’d say “hey I wasn’t aware the process changed, when did that happen?”. She’d feel really proud about her ~new process~ and I’d tell her we should check with team lead (who was more than aware of her mistakes) to see what we should do. Team lead would inevitably stand with me and mention it to boss. Or else coworker would suggest her brilliant new “process changes” directly in emails to the boss, who would shoot them down.

      When coworker was so upset about her mistakes, my boss would address the fact that she was upset more than the fact she made mistakes, and they would just end up with me to fix. This way, my boss began to see it for what it was and my coworker was moved off of the team for good.

      The most important thing is, don’t correct her work! Even if it hurts you to see and has consequences, don’t do it. I don’t think you’d be wrong to push your boss to have it fixed, even if it makes her angry. If it’s getting done correctly (no matter who does it), there’s not going to be a lot of incentive for management to take action.

  99. IdleEric*

    One of my coworkers is out on extended disability due to an on the job wrist injury (caused by his own stupidity). Our insurance is paying for him to have a major surgery and months of recovery. He just posted tons of photos from his “first ever ski trip” which to my mind means lots of wipeouts. I feel like this is pretty unethical but I should just mind my own business, right?

    1. mr. brightside*

      Yep, move on. Unfriend/ignore/whatever the setting is on Facebook so you don’t see it. Out of sight, out of mind.

    2. It's a fish, Al*

      I think it’s a firm case of MYOB. He may be aggravated by entirely different movements, he may have gotten doctor’s permission, he may be skiing with a brace…bring unable to do job duties doesn’t necessarily mean being unable to recreate.

      1. IdleEric*

        He’s getting surgery bc he’s been unable to follow doctors orders to stop using it. We work in a specialized construction trade and he’s definitely not supposed to be out skiing and using ski poles in that hand. They had to put him in a cast in sort of a human version of the “cone of shame” so he’d stop irritating it.

        1. IdleEric*

          It’s definitely affecting my professional opinion of said person, but so it goes. Must be nice to have a paid year off for vacations.

    3. LCL*

      MYOB and yes this is suspicious. But he could be skiing without using a pole in that hand. Most people who ski learn really quick, if they haven’t already, to not put your hands out to stop a fall. And you don’t have to be perfectly healthy to ski. If he is being unwise, let the consequences fall on him without your intervention.

    4. Construction Safety*

      Hmm. My thoughts are that the WC carrier might be interested. Ours has a “Report Fraud” hotline.

  100. Poe*

    Companies sometimes contact me to ask me what days I’m available to schedule a phone interview, but then wait a few days to respond and give very short notice for it. For example, if they e-mail me on Monday, I might reply that I’m free anytime on Wednesday, Thursday or Friday with the assumption they’ll get back to me at some point before 5:00 on Tuesday. I’ll check e-mail frequently on Tuesday for a reply, but after that I assume I’ll never hear from them (which happens occasionally) and resume checking e-mail about once or twice a day. They might e-mail me at 5:30 pm on Wednesday wanting to schedule a call for 8:30 the next morning, or they’ll e-mail me Friday at 10:00 am wanting to schedule a call for 12:30 pm. Sometimes companies even just e-mail me out of the blue and ask when I’m available that same day.

    I’m currently unemployed, so I’m generally pretty available, but I want at least 24 hours notice so I’ll actually see the e-mail in time to then have time to read about the company and prepare a bit. Is there a professional way to say I need 24 hours notice? I’m worried about seeming high maintenance to the people who would be courteous about scheduling phone interviews without being asked to.

    1. Eleanor Konik*

      If it’s an email, you could phrase it as “I can be available between (hours) with 24 hours notice” or “I am typically available between X and Y.” But honestly, if you miss the email just write back and say “Unfortunately, I wasn’t available at TIME, however, I will be around between X and Y today and can be available DAY thru DAY with NOTICE.”

      1. Poe*

        That’s perfect! Thank you! Your wording is polite and to the point. What I was thinking of saying was too wordy and explain-y.

  101. Philosoraptor*

    Company party is tonight. I work for a resort. Cocktail hour with drinks and heavy hors d’oeuvres and a complimentary night’s stay. Great right? Except they scheduled it for 6:30pm, on a Friday, the busiest time on the busiest day of the week. Half of the employees will be working during the actual party and we won’t be able to check in to our rooms until after work. Check in is also during work hours and we won’t be done until around 10pm. By the time we all get checked in and cleaned up from the night’s work, it’ll probably be time to fall asleep. Oh yeah, and we’re expected to show face. Can’t wait.

  102. Holiday Grinch*

    Odd timekeeping question for the commentariat. My job is throwing a holiday party, which starts at 1pm. I am a non-exempt employee with normal hours of 8-4pm with an hour unpaid for lunch. However, they do usually let us leave early, so we may be allowed to go home at 3pm instead of 4pm. But we don’t know until after the party has already begun. It is understood that you come to the holiday party unless you are out of the office. Is it unethical to claim an extra hour on my timesheet for my missed lunch hour?

    1. Micromanagered*

      I don’t think it’s unethical at all. Typically, if we get “let out” early on a holiday, it’s understood that hourly employees get paid for the full day, but if we have a group social activity that takes place during people’s lunch hour, they would not claim an hour of overtime for it.

      1. Someone Else*

        In some places, making the last hour of the shift the unpaid meal break is not legal. So it’s hard to answer the question without locale context.

  103. Justin*

    (Big sigh)

    I’ve written about being given the lead role on a project that a colleague was on and her being put out about it (not at me, but at the situation). And I also wrote she’s just kind of annoying and I recognize signs of similar MH issues I have struggled with (but I’m no doctor and can’t diagnose…).

    So the other day she texts me (not unusual at my job, it was during work hours) to ask if we can talk in person. I was busy/out of office so we met today.

    Now, she had to be struggling to have a project taken from her. But she wanted to talk to me because, apparently, her job is in jeopardy. (We start on probation, we all do, but it’s usually a formality. Well, her probation was extended this week, and that’s… not a good sign).

    She asked me not to take credit for work she’s done on our project (and I wouldn’t, nor did she expect I would), and she has expressed the idea she’s getting the shaft because all of her projects haven’t worked well/were difficult. (Yeah….)

    I told her I felt bad and that it’s a difficult situation and that I’d been there before at another job (sort of). And I was generally warm and she seemed to appreciate it. For now, we’ll continue on the project and if we do well, maybe it can save her.

    But in my head I’m just thinking… oh… oh no. Because she really can’t see why she is struggling. Her projects have been a challenge but they are exactly the stuff we do. She sends “reminder” emails to supervisors frequently (like, all the time), and… thinks she knows more than she does about a lot of things. And asking me to give her credit for her own work (which I was going to do anyway) suggests… well, she sees things a certain way I cannot help with. She has done a lot of work, it’s just… not great work.

    I no longer find her annoying, I guess, because I feel bad. I hope I can excel on this project and help her, but I can’t help her see what’s in the mirror (metaphorically) if she doesn’t want to look. She’s much older than me, with a teenager at home she’s raising alone, but my job is really accommodating and kind, she’s just… not very good at it along with having skewed professional/boundary norms.

    I wish her the best, but it’s hard to watch from up close.

    1. Ainomiaka*

      I can’t say anything about if her projects are things she just needs to be able to do better, but her asking you to give her credit for her work reads to me as she knows how common it is for project leads to take all the credit. Maybe you would have, but that’s not some weird thing she made up-plenty of people wouldn’t for a variety of reasons that range from not thinking about it to active stealing.
      Also sending supervisors reminder emails is wrong? I’m guessing you don’t work in QA or compliance. I don’t mean that to be snarky-but that very action is a decent part of my job.

      1. Justin*

        I suppose that is common other places she’s worked, so that’s probably where she’s coming from.

        Yes, if we were in such a field that would be normal. My mom is in compliance. I’m talking about a supervisor mentioned she’d send us something by noon and she (coworker) sends several “you said you’d send this” emails by the end of the day. Or today, she’s sent two emails reminding someone who doesn’t work on Fridays (the director of the entire team) to follow up on something decidedly not time-sensitive.

        My point isn’t that these things are bad in any context, but in our context they don’t really work. Sort of a “read the room” thing. But yes, from my description I might sound like I’m saying “never remind supervisors of anything.”

        2. Justin*

          I may chosen poor examples, but her main issues are boundaries and not reading the room etc. She doesn’t know when to stop, basically, and also doesn’t connect well with our students.

  104. Paloma Pigeon*

    I would just like to point out for the record that all of Alison’s advice about catching problematic behaviors early and setting clear expectations on improvement is so on the money, because I have watched a slow motion disaster evolve over the past 8 months with a staff member who has an area of expertise no one else does use that as a reason to simply not accept any authority. At all. To the point where when they were given a directive in a meeting, push back and argue, and then unfortunately our manager did not execute any consequences for this.

    Cut to this week, where half the organization is one corner and half in the other, and being torn apart over competing narratives. And this staff member DEMANDED that our manager resign in a conversation. I’d get popcorn, but I’m too busy looking for a new job.

    Alison’s advice is gold. Nip things in the bud early, or they metastasize and affect everyone around them, and eventually entire departments.

    1. Mouse in the House*

      There’s a Dilbert quote that says, “I need to become indispensable so that I can’t be fired for my behavior.” I feel you! I have a mid-70-yo colleague who is the epitome of that statement and it sounds like this person fits the bill, too. Good luck finding a new job! (I’m also looking–and yes, this person was the final straw that broke the camel’s back and prompted me to start my search.)

  105. Remote Worker*

    Can I ask to be paid a standard rate for company meetings? My company is primarily salaried employees with only a couple of us who are remote and hourly. We have an annual company meeting that lasts a week. Company pays travel, hotel, all food, shuttles us back and forth to the work site and treats us very nicely for the week-long meeting. Problem is the company shuttle leaves about 8:30 am, we break for an hour for lunch, and wrap up between 3:30-4 so everyone can go back to the hotel and freshen up before (not officially, but actually mandatory and unpaid) all going out to dinner together. Hourly employees need to spend 2-3 hours late every night or early in the am to get their 40/week in while the salary folks are playing games/partying. A big part of this meeting is to connect with other departments, and the big boss really likes everyone to show up to the social events during dinner/evening. I guess we could take PTO, but it doesn’t seem fair we would have to use it for the company-required meeting or find an excuse not to go (one employee has done this several times, but I think it has hurt her professionally). Actually, I am not sure our boss even realizes this is a problem for us, the first hourly employee has just always worked extra hours, but she is very shy and would cut out her tongue before doing anything that could be seen as a complaint.

    1. Psyche*

      If you aren’t sure he even knows that you need to work extra hours because of this, ask! He may tell you that you can claim the time to bring you to 40 hours and you no longer have a problem. And phrasing it as a question (“Since I am hourly, do you want me to claim X event on my time sheet or should I work extra hours in the evening to make up the time?”) means that it shouldn’t reflect poorly on you.

    2. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I think if you’re doing something with coworkers that you wouldn’t normally be doing with coworkers–eating meals, hanging out, playing games–it’s pretty reasonable to call that “team-building” and count it as work hours.

    3. foolofgrace*

      As an hourly employee in a salaried world, I find I often get the shaft like this. It’s just how it goes. I hope it’s better for you.

      1. Remote Worker*

        Update: At today’s meeting a used-to-be salaried employee who came back as hourly brought up the issue, all the other hourly workers confirmed it was a problem. Boss said he would look into it, sounded dubious but we are hopeful.

  106. EmKay*

    Office party tonight. 800ish attendees. I’m trying not to hyperventilate just thinking about it.

    Then I am off work until Jan. 3rd. After working my butt off on a huge project all summer and fall, this extra (unexpected) paid vacation is a thank-you gift from my boss. I. cannot. WAIT.

    5. Workerbee*

      I read your second line as “Boorish attendees.” :)

      Off work until Jan 3rd AND paid, that is brilliant.

  107. Ali G*

    I’d like to get some thoughts on how my husband is trying to support his best employee.
    This employee relocated 1.5 hours away (after discussions with him and other folks at the company – COL is high here and he is just starting out), but my husband really wants to retain him. He is by far the best member of his team. So far Hubs has given the employee (we will call him Ted) flexibility to WFH as much as he can within reason of getting work done (Ted also travels out of state frequently, so he does need to come to the office at some point).
    Recently, after over a year of trying (and losing pregnancies), Ted’s wife finally got pregnant. She is at about 25 weeks, and they just found out that she had been pregnant with twins, but one baby died in utero. Obviously this is terrible news. I said to my husband, that with the past issues and now this, he needs to be ready for Ted to have to go at any time, in case this baby isn’t waiting around for 9 months. If that happens, I know the baby will be in NICU for months, and he and his wife will need a lot of emotional support (she is also going to have to give birth to the other baby).
    My husband is fully on board and told Ted that at any time, all he needs to do is tell Hubs what he needs (time off most likely, but no travel, WFH 100% for a while, whatever) and Hubs will accommodate him. Hubs also told Ted that if he can’t get a hold of him, to just inform the Principal of the company what is going on and do what you need to do.
    Are there other things Hubs could be doing for Ted? His worry is that Ted won’t take him up on the offers of flexibility and try to power through, because that’s the type of guy he is. Or he will just quit and find a job closer to home. I’ve met Ted and his wife and they are great people and hard workers. We just want to make sure work isn’t an overriding factor when they need to make critical choices for their family.
    Thanks for reading and any advice!

    1. Elle*

      It sounds like your husband is a great manager and is doing everything he can. You can’t force people to take care of themselves. Honestly, I think he’s done enough, but if he wants to do more…

      One thought is related to the huge expense of having a child in NICU – namely, all the travel back and forth and having 2 parents who can’t work normal hours, eating out, needing to hire someone to take care of the house/pets, etc. Is there FMLA or other processes in place that can be started ahead of time, so Ted knows that if he needs to take time off he won’t have to worry about money? Can you take up a collection in the office where people bank their unused vacation time in Ted’s name? Can you get donations for a Visa gift card for them to use if they need to be eating out a lot while spending time at the hospital?

      1. Elle*

        I also wanted to add… if your husband truly cares about Ted, sometimes being OK with him resigning is the best gift he can give. If this long commute, the stress of WFH if its not his preferred method, being far from pregnant momma, etc is too much for him… maybe leaving for another, closer, job really is what’s best for him. Obviously don’t push him out, but don’t hold it against him either.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      It sounds like he’s already being really supportive of Ted, which is wonderful. Continuing to check in and occasionally reminding Ted (in case he does try to power through), and just being a sort of escape away from it all sounds like a good course.

    3. Ali G*

      Thanks to you both! Yes I know he may have to move on. But I would never want it to be because he wasn’t supported in a difficult time. I really like these ideas (and I did tell my husband that if there is any formal process Ted needs to start, let him know now).

  108. Notasecurityguard*

    General question: on a resume in the “other skills” section how would I list “good at dealing with people who are fucking nuts”? Or will my job experience in auto sales and law enforcement demonstrate that?

    1. Eleanor Konik*

      I am not a manager / HR person (I teach, so I think I have some sense of what you mean) but you could probably say something like “experienced with de-escalation in public-facing roles”

      1. Workerbee*

        +1
        And add examples if you can build out that particular skill set. De-escalation is no easy-peasy thing. You have to assess each situation individually and strive toward the best outcome for the customer/staff/bystanders/yourself.

        Other keywords include:

        Assessing precipitating factors
        Reducing conflict before it reaches a crisis point
        Debriefing with team [if applicable] to prevent future occurrences

  109. Elle*

    Just wanted to share a lovely faith-in-humanity moment:

    My grandmother’s funeral was last week. Five of my mom’s coworkers (including her boss) showed up at calling hours before the funeral to express their condolences, gave her a gift certificate, 2 cards because all the well wishes wouldn’t fit on just 1, and even brought a small bouquet of flowers for each of her EIGHT siblings. They also gave me/her a stern talking to about ensuring my mom took all the time she needed and didn’t come rushing back to work before she was ready, that they’d figure out a way to cover her hours between themselves.
    My mom works in a huge corporate company and this is absolutely crunch time. But still, this is something her coworkers made time for.

    I still can’t get over how incredible that is. I hope I find that one day.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      So sorry for your loss! It is really heart warming that your mom’s work is so supportive. That’s a pretty awesome thing for a workplace to do.

  110. anon again this week*

    Thank you to everyone who replied to my comment in the open thread last week! I had posted about a project I’d taken over being moved to another division, and not being sure if I should say something to the new project manager about the previous financial misconduct I’d put a stop to when I took over. (The previous project manager before me had essentially used it to fund her side business.)

    Since then, it was formally announced that the project was moving to the new division, to the whole company, in an email that implied that it was happening because I was incompetent. I also learned through the office grapevine more about the questionable circumstances that led to the previous project manager moving to a different department. She made some sort of HR complaint that has made all of our division leadership afraid of upsetting her, which I think is why they didn’t take any action when I reported it. They were afraid of legal action if anything about this program was said publicly that upset her…. which is why they worded the notice that it was moving the way they did. So I’m told.

    The letter earlier this week about the company that wouldn’t fire the violent employee because they were afraid of a lawsuit was really eye-opening. This project manager isn’t violent, but it’s interesting (and frustrating) to me that the company is more worried she will sue them if she is fired than they are interested in getting rid of an employee who is mishandling funds. We don’t have an anonymous way to report stuff like this (thank you to the person who suggested that!), which surprises me because we are a large company.

    At this point, I’m just trying to get through until my holiday vacation and figure out what to do next after that. I’d love any further thoughts on this situation – I’ve only been at this company for a year and I do have other projects that I enjoy. The pay is good and the benefits are AMAZING, but I’m super frustrated that my professional reputation got dragged through the mud because they were afraid that if they said something the previous project manager didn’t like she would sue them. I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts about steps forward at this point.

    1. Elle*

      Ugh ugh ugh. Sorry to hear this update. Unfortunately, your leadership team sucks and isn’t going to change. Going around them to report this won’t help them change their opinion. In fact, anything you do to fight this likely will reflect as you being petty about them taking your project which is SO ANNOYING.
      But I think at this point I’d try to focus on proving to everyone else that you can indeed handle your stuff by doing a great job on the next project.
      And updating your resume and setting your linkedin profile to ‘interested in new opportunities’.

  111. The Curator*

    Project Management Question
    I am a reader. Can someone recommend a book about project management and/or an application that would work for projects that would involve events, printed matter, other departments’ resources? I really can’t learn from videos so a book would be best. A workbook would be even better.

    1. Elle*

      Project management concepts are pretty broad and can be applied to any specific industry. My first suggestion would be to learn about Lean business processes. The Toyota Way is ‘the’ classic intro to lean but its more heavily manufacturing focused. Not to say you can’t still get tons of useful info out of it. I would start there to get a basis and then look for more lean books more closely related to your area of study.

      There is also an official project management certificate – PMP, or Project Management Professional. That will teach you all the basics of scheduling, budget, resource utilization, etc. You can likely get a workbook if you can’t take the entire class. The class I took was through the Project Management Institute and was very good.

      Also, Microsoft Project is a great tool for organizing deadlines and resources, if you don’t have it already.

      Finally, most of project management is really about organization and being a good leader. If you want to learn about leadership I recommend Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink (I also love his podcast).

    2. Gumby*

      There are a plethora of books about project management and it really depends on what aspect you are most interested in. The two books I liked enough to keep after my PM courses are “The Fast Forward MBA in Project Management” and “Effective Project Management: Traditional, Agile, Extreme” though the second one, in particular, is not a short quick read.

      Microsoft Project is the most well-known application which is (IMO) better suited for traditional projects but has some pretty powerful capabilities. It is also not cheap particularly if you want to roll out, say, Project Server, to a whole organization. (My company is unwilling to support that type of expense – we’re too small to make it worthwhile.)

      I like Asana for highly collaborative projects and Trello for agile projects. There are a ton of options out there and it really depends on what you need and what will integrate well with your existing systems. What do other groups in your organization use?

      2. The Curator*

        I realized after reading the comments that I was behaving like a grad student expecting a list-serve to do my homework assignment. My apologies. I also realized that I can do what I always do and start at the most rudimentary. I will be reading “Project Management for Dummies” and Harvard Business School Guide to Project Management to get a basic education then I can move on to more complicated texts.

  112. Decima Dewey*

    Okay, I’ve trying to post this again.

    It’s been an interesting week. My branch had to close Monday (all of our circulation staff called out and we couldn’t get help from other branches) and Mr. Lastname, Guard, and I got redeployed to other branches. Training in the morning on Tuesday, with four rounds of roleplaying. Wednesday Mr. Lastname called out, as did two of the circulation staff. Remaining circulation staffer refused to open unless we got help, and I couldn’t blame her–in recent weeks she’s ended up on the desk all day with only relief for morning and afternoon breaks and lunch. We got help and opened late. Grandboss had arranged coverage for Thursday, and when I let the visiting circulation staffer in, the UPS guy called out to me–he’d been trying to deliver packages to us all week. So I let him in even though we weren’t open yet. Today things are fine, although I’m beginning to feel that I’m more invested in keeping the branch open than the branch manager is.

    Elsewhere in the system, another branch is listed as being closed until mid-January for “building improvement”. I have to admit that replacing the roof that caved in last month would be an improvement!

    Also, a library patron at yet another branch got suspended from the system for 6 months for harassing staff. Among other things, he tore down the poster that listed Standards for Acceptable Behavior in the branch and told the staff he was “God in the flesh.”

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I think I’ve found my replacement for Small Town Newsroom. Wish it was more uplifting. Yikes.

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      Yikes, staff shortage that prevents you from opening the branch is serious. Hope whatever bug’s going around skips you!

      We got word of the Sacramento shooting (a branch librarian was shot and killed, allegedly by a disgruntled banned patron) just after our staff holiday party today. :/ People have been texting me and warning me to stay safe. Scary!

  113. Lumen*

    I’m feeling at the end of my rope. My team has been shorthanded for four months (with no support from upper management). They’ve added new, complex, major responsibilities for us every month in this period, and it’s all “this has to be perfect the first time” stuff. They finally backfilled the open positions, but soon, we’ll have some (planned) personnel changes that will leave us shorthanded again… for at least another 3-4 months. Given the lack of support we’ve already seen, I have no faith that we’ll get any help in the new year.

    On top of that, I am growing increasingly disturbed by the moral bankruptcy around me. They’re merging some departments (not mine) that are honestly completely unrelated. Think “teapot design specialists” and “teapot delivery drivers”. But now the designers have to drive and the drivers have to design. People who were hired for one job have been told to suck it up, their new job means taking on this whole new skillset that they have no training in and aren’t interested in doing. And there’s zero concern for the pushback: upper management literally said they’re hoping natural attrition will ‘take care of the problem’… ie, people will quit so they don’t have to fire them, because the whole point of merging these departments was to cut bottom line costs. Upper management insists that some people really like the change! (Because if they aren’t enthusiastic enough, you’re going to push them out of their jobs.) It’s so gross.

    Oh, and our company serves some other companies who are straight-up evil. Think Big Brother levels of surveillance and defense contractors whose weapons are being used to bomb already war-torn countries.

    I’m burnt out. I don’t like the work I do, I have no interest in what the company does, too much has been asked of me for too long, I have no faith that it will change or that I’ll be supported, and it’s getting harder to sleep at night.

    I don’t even know what to ask for. If you have advice, I’ll take it. If you have sympathy, I’ll take it.

    2. Mouse in the House*

      I feel ya! I’m in a vaguely similar situation. Luckily I like the work but my entire department has been overworked for about two years now. We are the smallest department and our outgoing CEO has delusions about how our department head’s (our VP) claims of us being overworked are lies or over-exaggerated. The one saving grace is that our VP does not care that for the past two years, we’ve been “late” on every major deliverable – he knows that we’re all overworked and stressed, since he is as well. I’m still looking to get out and if I ever do (please send some good thoughts my way), I am, point-blank putting in writing that the reason I quit is because of the CEO’s refusal to give us more staff. I’ll be delighted to see what our new CEO does with that information.

      I recommend applying to other jobs and trying to get out as soon as you can! I think I’ll go apply to a job this very moment during my lunch break…

  114. Foreign Octopus*

    I have a question for Alison (and I’m sorry if someone else has already asked this but I’m between lessons and typing quickly)!

    Alison, when you receive updates like the one we received last night about the birthday employee, do you ever feel the desire to write to the company and tell them what they’re doing is wrong?

    Because that one spun my head.

    1. Beth Anne*

      Well a year or so ago I don’t remember when but there was a story about a crazy interview process where the people had to cook dinner for people and it was this entire weekend long group interview. I remember she wrote an update and it went viral and several news stories and podcasts picked it up.

      I think that has happened with a few articles that were kind of crazy. I bet most people don’t disclose the company so she doesn’t know. But I’m with you I’m usually floored and want to know what some of these companies are. And then I get annoyed b/c I deem myself a pretty normal person that can’t seem to find a good job yet all these people are running businesses or managing them and are so HORRIBLE!

  115. WellRed*

    Welp, for the first time in my long history here, we did not get a Christmas bonus yesterday. To be clear, it was a token bonus of $100 cash in recent years but it was still much appreciated. What kills me is, there are so few of us that it would have only cost the company about $1k to keep us all happy. Not sure they really “saved” the money, you know? That lead balloon was followed by the Christmas party, where folks definitely hit up the open bar ; )

  116. The Babiest Babyface*

    I am honestly walking on air right now! Yesterday, I nearly went into a panic attack because I thought I had waited too long to start on a paper, to the extent that I thought I wouldn’t be able to turn it in, but I just had a meeting with my professor and she’s so happy with the information I have and so confident in my ability. This is wild! I feel invincible!

  117. LGC*

    This week in the shop: I had to manually clock in an employee because she didn’t have her nails done. (We have a hand reader for our time clock. She normally has long nails. The clock wouldn’t recognize her hand without the nails.)

    Also I had to put a Minion on a milk carton.

      1. LGC*

        I left out a LOT of context – it gets better!

        One of our employees (she works on my team) brought in an inflatable Minion for our (technically multi-denominational but mostly) Christmas display. The Minion disappeared on Wednesday. My department had a very animated discussion about the Minion’s disappearance on Wednesday that only stopped when a trainee class walked in.

        Yesterday I put up missing person (err…Minion) flyers in the hallway. Complete with a photo of the Minion on a milk carton.

        (If Productive Hourly Employee is looking for ways to fill their time: I don’t suggest making prank posters, but I also don’t NOT suggest that either. And if my bosses are reading this, it took me like two minutes to bang it out in Publisher.)

          1. LGC*

            Unfortunately, no! (We’re not the kind of place that could feasibly have pets.) Otherwise, that might be the first thing I’d suspect. (Although I feel like with cats, it would be less missing person and more homicide…err, minion-cide.)

            Also, because I slacked off: in case anyone is still reading, the link in my username is what I do in my very limited downtime at work.

    3. Construction Safety*

      LOL on the hand scanner. Ours was like that, plus you had to use your right hand & one guy was missing a coupla fingers & it wouldn’t work for him at all.

      1. LGC*

        We actually had a similar issue! One of our employees has limited mobility with their right hand. It was a huge production to get them set up and able to punch in (like, it took a month or two to get them settled iirc).

        In general I really like this system, but it gives me headaches sometimes.

  118. Anonforthis*

    Hello!
    Hoping the AAM readers will have some helpful advice about a difficult situation! My husband was let go this week and it was very unexpected as his immediate boss was exceptionally pleased with his work and gave him an “Exceeds Expectations” on his review a month ago.
    I’m hoping the readers have some advice on how I can best support him during what would always be a difficult time but is even more difficult at the holidays. The industry is very small and he is struggling to decide how and who to tell. If you have experienced a sudden layoff what did your spouse do (or you wish they had done) to be supportive during your job search?

    1. Drax*

      My Ex once said to me after I’d spent 6 months trying to get a job “oh it’s easy to get a job, you just need to do X, Y and Z” well he was an experienced technical engineer, obviously much easier for him to find a job then a mid-level construction buyer.

      My tips would be to encourage him, listen to the spiraling thoughts of what he could do (I had a lot, from maybe quitting my industry and trying another, to starting over in X positions, maybe going back to school) and understand that getting a job is a job itself and its not always possible to send out a ton of applications, clean and cook or that some days you need a day off from the hunt. Most importantly, have lots of love and support for him. The longer a person is unemployed the more it becomes personal (even if it isn’t actually) and it can be brutal what it does to your self esteem, so have lots of love and support for him if he gets into that part of unemployment.

      If you can financially swing it, I’d also encourage your husband to take a week off and be a potato. Sleep in, do his hobbies, take his time redoing his resume, and just spend some time doing what he wants to do for a set amount of time. It gives you some time to get over the initial reaction of being blindsided laid off before trying to get a new job. No one interviews well if they’re still very bitter.

    2. Colette*

      My advice:
      – give him a couple of days to mourn
      – sit down with him and figure out your finances. How will you survive until he gets a new job? What can/should you cut back on?
      – encourage him to tell people (I’ve gotten my last 2 jobs because I told people I was laid off)
      – leave his job search in his hands, unless you have reason to believe he’s not looking
      – listen when he wants to talk, but otherwise don’t ask too many questions
      – spend time with him without discussing the job hunt
      – if you have reason to believe he’s not doing anything to find a job, or if you believe he needs help for something like depression, encourage him to get help

  119. Aspiring side-gig-haver*

    I want to start freelance medical editing as a side gig, and I’m currently an admin assistant at a teaching hospital. I’m sure there’s a way to leverage my connections here to turn it into some actual freelancing. The problem is, I already write and edit case reports, papers, etc. for the faculty as part of my regular job, and we have a dedicated writer with a PhD to my BA anyway. It seems like I would need to go outside my department to actually get a paying side gig, but I feel like I would lose the reputation I’ve gained as a good writer and editor by doing so. (As in, grandboss—the department chair—has complimented my work at a meeting where I was not present.)

    Does anyone have advice on how to actually use the reputation and connections I’ve built through this job to get a side gig, or should I start looking at other hospitals in the area? Absent anything else, I could just start putting up fliers on the nearby college campus.

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      Does your hospital have a local Institutional Review Board (IRB) that could use help with editing informed consent forms? Not sure if all of them pay but due to my line of work that sprung to mind as a possibility.

    2. Sherm*

      Networking would be a way to go. Assuming that your employer doesn’t frown upon having a side gig, you can just let the physicians/others that you are wanting to do some freelance work. Odds are they have friends in other departments and institutions who are really busy and very much want someone to help them with their writing. It doesn’t mean you would have to stop writing as part of your regular job. Also, see if you can meet up with members of the American Medical Writers Association. Many wonderful people there.

  120. DaniCalifornia*

    Sorry for the double post but I have been job searching for technically a year but in reality with tax season/deadlines it’s impossible to job search Jan-Apr and then Aug-Nov. We aren’t allowed PTO off in Jan-Apr unless it’s a funeral or something very special as we are a small office. I have friends who will ask about the search and when I say it’s going to be hard soon to interview, they just respond with “Well use your PTO!” Tax season is not a time to be taking half a day or all day off. It gets me seriously behind on work and interviews are usually a last minute thing so I don’t have a good excuse for my boss. A dr’s appt here and there (first thing or end of day) is ok but there is just no way I can say “Hey boss I need tomorrow off between 10am – 2pm for an appt” without being subject to extreme scrutiny. Many of the jobs I’m applying to are closer to the city center and I work 30 miles from there so a mid day interview is torture enough. Not to mention I would waste a lot of precious PTO time even if I could, we already have a sparse policy. It’s just frustrating to hear this from people who get 4 weeks PTO + personal/sick days or who have part time jobs where they pick their schedules.

    1. Beth Anne*

      I’d maybe try and see if some of them would set up phone interviews. That way you don’t need as much time off. I have also heard of people that will interview people really early like 7am or late like 6pm. Especially if new jobs are also tax related they would be understanding.

    2. Mouse in the House*

      Why can’t you just go to job interviews first thing in the morning or late in the afternoon? When they ask for your availability, just say that’s the only time you’re available, which is true. You could even go on to explain that you’re not “really” allowed the PTO and need to be discreet. A lot of people will get it.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Surprisingly a lot of interviewers dont understand. I lost out on an interview when I said I couldn’t do the next 2 days during middle of the day and they said “Oh well we are only interviewing on these 2 days.” Or they email me interview slots to pick from. Even when I’ve explained about tax season. The roles I’m applying for are in admin careers so from what I’ve seen the hiring process isn’t quite as extended or drawn out as in some other professions.

        I know you probably didn’t mean to come off this way and are offering helpful suggestions, but you sound exactly like the friends/family that I am frustrated with when you say “Why can’t you…”

        1. Mouse in the House*

          It sounds like those companies aren’t ones you’d want to work with anyway, so I hope you don’t feel too bad about that. If you said, “I’m not allowed to take time off out of the work day except early in the morning or late afternoon,” and they replied, “well I guess we’re not interviewing!” that’s on them, not you. You did your best, and that’s what counts. There will be a company who does understand and hopefully they will hire you – best of luck with the job search.

  121. Eric*

    Hi everyone. Need some advice on how to discuss a death in the family with my boss.

    My grandmother is in pretty bad shape and I don’t know how much time she has left. Given her age (nearly 90) and conditions, I’m worried that she has less than a year left, but I don’t know for sure — she and my father have not been forthcoming with details about her conditions*.

    Unfortunately, since my father and I are her only living relatives around, I’ll have to be involved with planning the funeral and handling her will and everything.

    My boss knows that my grandmother isn’t doing well, but I haven’t shared details with him. Just stuff like requests to occasionally work from home so I can go see her in the hospital at lunch time.

    My question is, should I fill my boss in on this situation in advance? And if so, how?

    *I know that this isn’t right (specifically, my grandmother will say things like “it makes her too upset” to sure what her doctors have told her), but I have been trying for years to get her to tell me more of what’s going on and she won’t, so I have given up there. I’d rather not talk about the family situation.

    1. Elle*

      I don’t know that you need to give him all these details – they really don’t impact what you need out of him. Its not like anyone will be upset if you tell him you expect her to have 5 months left, but in reality she has 14 – they’ll all think its great!
      If it helps you feel better, you can have a plan in place with him almost like you’re expecting to give birth. “Hey boss, if, at some point, my grandmother passes it will likely be unexpected and I will likely need X number of days off. Can we have a plan in place so that all I need to do is let you know and my work can be covered during that time?”

      I just went through my grandmother’s declining health, and when we were pretty certain she was near the end of her time, I asked my boss if I could use some of my bereavement time before she passed so I could spend the last days with her. Company policy didn’t make that possible, but we have a separate ‘absent with permission’ clause that he set up with HR ahead of time, so all I needed to do when the time came was shoot him a text that I would be using it the next few days.

      1. Eric*

        I’m so sorry that you lost your grandmother, too. It’s awful. Whatever condolences from an internet stranger are worth, you have mine.

        Haven’t told my boss all the details. He just knows that my grandmother is pretty old and has been in and out of the hospital a lot recently. I like my boss and I’m liked by the department, but I’m wary of oversharing. At the same time, I don’t want to leave my boss wondering what’s going on when he’s sympathetic, so I’m asking to understand what the right balance is. You’ve helped with that! Thank you!

        1. Elle*

          Thank you, that’s very kind.

          I tend to agree with avoiding oversharing. All your boss needs to know is that your grandmother is in declining health and at some point you may need time to deal with it. Since she’s elderly, chances are he’s not going to question this any further or be wondering whats going on. He will just be sorry that you’re going through a difficult time. Best wishes and I’m sorry to hear about your grandmother as well!

    2. Catleesi*

      I don’t think you need to do anything in advance. Your boss knows your grandmother isn’t well, and can take from that what he will. Death often doesn’t happen with much notice, and isn’t something you can generally plan for.

      If for some reason he does get pushy about details you can tell him you would prefer not to discuss it (politely), and pivot to a different topic.

    3. Rey*

      I am sorry that you are dealing with this. If your boss already knows that your grandmother isn’t doing well, I would leave it at that. You don’t have any concrete information for him, death is inherently unpredictable without the further lack of information from your family, so there isn’t anything he can do to prepare for this. Make sure that you are well-organized and detailed in your work, in case you have to unexpectedly take off, and it sounds like he will be willing to work with you when the time comes.

      1. Eric*

        My boss is great. Right now all he knows is basically that my grandma is old and not well. I think the most detail I’ve given him is “she’s nearly 90, and while it’s really tough to think about that, at her age, every day is a gift.”

        I will leave it at that with him. I am fairly new at this job (7 months), but I like it a lot and I’m striving to do the best I can.

    4. Asenath*

      I don’t think you can or should give you boss a heads up simply because the exact date is uncertain. If he already knows that your grandmother “isn’t doing well”, he’s not going to be surprised when you let him know that she has died and you are taking compassionate leave (or whatever it’s called where you are). You might ask in advance how much leave you can have – anyone who’s been in your shoes will know that if you are one of only two next of kin, you will not only be grieving, you will have a lot of things to take care of.

    5. Anna Held*

      Not a direct answer to your question, but I dealt with this with my grandmother, so please forgive me if this isn’t helpful: can you take her to a couple doctor’s appointments? If you’re there helping her she might feel OK giving her agreement to talk to the doctor. Then he can talk to you. I’m also getting a “does she really understand what the doctor told her” vibe (well, that was my grandmother). Also, take her out to lunch before/after her appointment. You’ll be glad afterward that you spent that extra time with her, and she’ll appreciate it. Or could you get medical power of attorney? It might be that she’s unwilling to talk about it, not that she’s unwilling for you to know about it. Or, of course, she might push back and there’s nothing you can do.

      Bonus of going to appointments with her, it’ll be a natural place to discuss with your boss what’s going on if you have to take time off.

      Obligatory “get a living will” message here!

      1. valentine*

        Her body; her rules. It’s fine that she won’t give details. Don’t undermine that and sneak your way into a position of confidence.

  122. Hawk*

    I’ve never posted here but always like to read the comments and was wondering if I could get some advice.

    Yesterday I accepted a job via email after some back and forth (was offered the job in a phone call on Wednesday). We haven’t discussed a start date yet- though I told them I would prefer to give three weeks notice in the interview. After accepting, the recruiter told me she would be in touch on Monday to set up a time to complete pre-hire paperwork. The job involves being around children, so I assume the paperwork is for a background check and other typical stuff. No issues there, but I’m wondering if this new job expects me to give notice now or after the sign-on appointment? What do you think?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d follow up with the recruiter asking about start date. Just let them know you’re trying to schedule your resignation with your current company. I do know that a lot of people recommend not giving notice until a background check clears. Sometimes those take longer than you think, and if you give 3 weeks notice now, and it takes 8 weeks to clear (extreme, but you get it), you’re without a paycheck for 5 weeks there. So yeah, just pin down the timeline with the recruiter. Depending on how you feel about them (do they seem trustworthy and open?) you could even ask them, or the hiring manager – if you have access to them – how previous new hires handled that with the background check. I’m sure it’s not the first time that question has come up.

  123. Rez123*

    Due to life me and my boyfriend had to move to diferent places. We are trying to apply for jobs to be closer to each other. It seems that it makes sense to put down partners address to make it seem like you are a local and thus more likely to be hired (neither of us have any special skills that comapanies would be fighting over). I think this has been also discussed here. But if you actually get a call or an interview request how do you handle it? Do you tell the truth? You lie about being out of town? The CV has a current job in another place so wouldn’t that be a turn off for them? Just put down your real address and in the cover letter you let them know you are looking to relocate?

    I’ve previosuly experienced not getting a job because I’m not local and I’ve been asked in interview if I’m actually willing to relocate. So I’m not looking to make this more difficult.

    1. Elle*

      Its a really really sticky thing to start off a new job search by lying. If I were a hiring manager and called a ‘local’ person for an interview only to find out they needed a plane ticket, I’d be put off. Plus, you might miss out on relocation bonuses.

      I would do things the opposite way. Be truthful about your current location, and use your cover letter as an opportunity to explain that you’re sincerely looking forward to relocating to the location, and your timeline for being able to do so (as in, I’m available to start work with 2 weeks notice its not like I’m going to need to sell a house first).

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, the only lie I might use is saying definitively in a cover letter that you’re moving to X location by Y date, even if you’ll only move if you get the job.

      2. Rez123*

        potential employee paying for travel or relocation bonus is not a thing for us (unless you are specifically being headhunted). I don’t want to lie. But I’ve seen and experiences so many instances where location has been quationed or heared the words “we hired a local” “would you really move?” in so many interviews that I don’t want to make things more difficult and get to the no pile automatically. The fact is that I’m a good worker with a decent CV, but I’ve got nothing that many many others don’t have (no this is not written in my cover letter, but it is the truth) so getting over the prejudice of people moving is a challenge.

        I’m leaning towards saying that I’m planning on relocating in the begining of february eventhough I’m not unless I get a job and really sell the reasons I’m moving. But as a topic this is very interesting and would like to hear more. I checked elsewre online and there was a lot of opinions. Thanks to those who answered already :)

        1. LJay*

          This is the way I would do it.

          When I’m looking at resumes, if I see a current job in a different city than I am in right now it raises questions for me. (Do they not realize the city the job they are applying for is in? Do they think we’re going to pay relocation costs? How soon are they going to be able to start?)

          Saying that you are planning on relocating to be closer to family would answer those questions for me and ease my mind.

    2. gecko*

      I think in a recent podcast Alison addressed this in a way that made sense to me. If you can get to the “destination” location with little notice and operate as if you’re a local, you can use that address. Ie if they ask you, “Can you do an interview this Friday?” you can say “sure!” and it’s reasonably easy to do, instead of “well I’ll need a plane ticket and a hotel.” Otherwise, you can put down in your cover letter that you’re planning to move so that interviewers can plan accordingly; you can phrase it like a fait accompli which should reduce the worry. “I’ll be moving to X area to be with family” instead of “Hoping to move to X area to see if it works out with my boyfriend.”

  124. JustaTech*

    Questions about Christmas presents and reciprocity:
    I work in a department of 8, but most closely with two other women and my boss. One woman and I report to the same boss, the other woman reports directly to our senior boss.

    Both other women have either given me a Christmas present or have said that they will (“Hey do you like this calendar? Good, I already got it for you!”), so i feel obligated to get something for them.

    I’m planning on making some food-gifts (spiced nuts and hot chocolate spoons), but since it’s a food gift I’m giving to both of them, should I make extra and give it to my boss as well? (My boss has said nothing about gifts and we haven’t ever done them in the past.)

    To complicate matters my entire department plus three others have just been moved to a temporary space of small cubes where we will be all up in each other’s business for the next few months, so I’m afraid if I give gifts to more than just my two coworkers I’ll need to make enough for everyone.

    TL;DR Do I have to give gifts to peers who give me gifts, and if so should I give the same gift to my boss?

    1. Rey*

      I don’t think there’s a hard rule about this if your work culture doesn’t have concrete expectations (for example, my office of 9 people, everyone gets something under $15 for everyone). If you only want to give the two people who gave you presents, then do that. If you want to de-emphasize the Christmas part, you could package the food in a non-Christmas way and word it as, “I just wanted to thank you for your thoughtfulness”, so it will be seen as reciprocity for the gifts they gave, and not as giving gifts to some and excluding others. Or, if you ever go out for lunch, you could give it to them then to avoid the awkwardness around coworkers and boss.

    2. Colette*

      I think it’s really up to you. I don’t think you’re obligated to give any of them a gift, but since you’re planning food gifts, I’d say you’re fine to include the boss. But honestly, I’d give probably err on the side of giving everyone a token gift (e.g. hot chocolate spoon + packet of hot chocolate) rather than giving 3/8 or 3/11 of the group a gift.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yeah, that’s the challenge. 1/8 doesn’t eat sugar, 1/8 is hardly ever around, 1/8 doesn’t sit anywhere near us, but because we moved now it’s not really 8 people but more like 30, which just isn’t going to happen.

        Ugh, I just wish they hadn’t given me anything. Then I could just bring in a platter of cookies for everyone and enjoy it.

        1. Colette*

          I don’t think there is anything wrong with just bringing in food to share, even though some people gave out individual gifts.

          If you’re looking for other ideas, one year I wrote personalized cards to everyone in my area telling them what I appreciated about them, and they were very well received. Some of them were more personal than others, but I made an effort to say something specific, sincere, and nice to everyone on my team (even those I was less fond of or didn’t know as well) and I had a lot of very positive responses. It cost $5 and about an hour of my time.

  125. cocoa tea*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    Need some advice: I left my first job after 1 year. It’s a small/medium-sized company and it was a new tech-related position. I got an offer I just couldn’t deny and my company didn’t have the resources to give a better counter-offer, so I put in my two weeks. They couldn’t hire a replacement in time and about two months later I’m getting almost daily emails from my former manager and my replacement about how to do X and Y. Their questions often offer extensive explanations and multiple back and forths and frankly I don’t want to help (for free).

    What should I do in this situation? I feel like if I refuse to help / ask for compensation, my manager will give poor references in the future.

    1. mr. brightside*

      The question is, do you want to keep helping them? If not, you can say “sorry, but due to my new job, I’m too busy to answer e-mails, all my leaving documentation is on X”. If you want to help, you could say something like “I can do a final hand-off call after working hours” or something. Or tell them to put all their questions into one e-mail and you’ll do it on a sunday and call that a hand-off.

      But it’s totally fine to push back on this! Just communicate with them. And once you make it clear that you’re not going to help anymore, you can reply to any e-mails with “sorry, way too busy at new job, good luck with things!”

      If you are interested in long term helping, put a price tag on it. Tell them you’d be happy to be do part-time at a wage. Make the wage at least twice of what they were paying (because taxes). See if they get back on the ball of hiring your replacement when you’re not a free resource anymore.

    2. Colette*

      Can you just get very forgetful and slow down your responses? I.e. “Sorry, I don’t remember how I used to handle that.” or “I think I included that in the document I wrote, but I don’t remember the details” – a day or two after you get the question.

  126. Productive Hourly Employee*

    I’m currently paid hourly. But sometimes especially in the winter I’m so good at my job I run out of things to do by 2 or 3pm. So I just do other things. But sometimes I feel bad to do this but I need the hours so I don’t leave. Usually at this time my boss isn’t here to see I’m not being productive.

    My sister says I should just do my job slower…which is easier said than done. There really isn’t anything else they could give me to do as I’m the bookkeeper. It’s just frustrating b/c I feel at times I get paid less and less to do the same job b/c I’ve become so efficient at my job.

    2. Elle*

      You could try asking your boss for more to do, a special project of some kind.
      You could also ask to be paid per diem (so, $100 per widget instead of by the hour).

      But to answer your question:
      Were you hired to do ‘a task’ or were you hired with an expected number of hours a week?
      Ethically, its questionable to stay longer than you’re needed unless they gave you an expected # hours or are actually scheduled for an amount of time. In reality (and maybe I’ve just worked with unions too long) as a manager I try to be extremely understanding of this conundrum. I always tell people that I don’t care what they do with their time as long as they get it done. If someone wants to get their work done in 6 hours and then read the other 2, cool. If someone wants to laze through their work day and take the full 8 hours to get their work done, cool. I’ve budgeted for someone to be there the whole time either way.
      But if you’re worried you may be fired if your boss catches you doing nothing (and she will eventually), then that’s something to consider.

    3. Workerbee*

      Are you keeping track of those other things? I keep an “Achievements” document that I send to my boss at the end of the year with things I do above & beyond my job description. You know, just in case any raises or positions are being considered in my favor. :)

      I’m not hourly, though, so the points others have raised might be way more helpful.

    4. Hamburke*

      I’m having the same issue with my bookkeeping job (I work for a small biz that does bookkeeping for other small businesses so several clients). I’ve done all the year-end stuff like 1099 audits, liability account audits, bonus check set ups, payroll audits, and even reviewed HR policies for the coming year. I have one more account to reconcile (closes on the 18th or it would be done) and then I get to make up what I do. I’ve taken to bringing course materials to work (it’s related but not paid for by work – certified public bookkeeper certificate) and attending webinars for CEUs…

  127. Anonymous Trans Guy*

    I posted a week or two ago, looking for advice on finding a private place to do stretches during the work day, since I wear a binder (compression undershirt) and need to remove it in order to prevent injury.

    I spoke to a few different people about a “hypothetical” need to use the nursing mothers room for PT (I’m in HR, so it wasn’t suspicious), and it was a bit of a dead end. Apparently, before I started, people were missing it and leaving a message for the new moms, so the admin team is really protective of it and won’t grant access, except to nursing moms. Fair enough.

    I did a bit of investigation and discovered, on a different floor, an accessible stall that is, no joke, bigger than my bathroom at home. It’s not a perfect solution ( I’d obviously prefer to leave the stall open for people who need it!) but I have room to do my stretches without worrying that someone might catch a glimpse of my bare chest through the gaps in the stall door.

    Thanks to everyone who offered advice or support, I was a little nervous about talking about transition-related stuff, but the commentariat was absolutely lovely!

    2. Anonymous Trans Guy*

      * “before I started, people were MISUSING the room and leaving a MESS for new moms”

      So many typos!

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        I’m glad you found a space! I wish you could use the nursing mothers room, but I can see why they want to restrict the usage. I’m a nursing mom and work at a university – I have a space in my building that no one else touches, so it’s been dubbed the “quiet room,” and can be used by others if I’m not using it. However the more publicly-accessible campus rooms do have to be viciously guarded….apparently students keep going in there and vaping.

        1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

          *guarded from people who would make messes. My phrasing sounds a little weird, I’m sorry.

        2. Chuck*

          I get that it’s a problem, but “students keep going in there and vaping” is one of the funniest things I’ve read on this site.

  128. Jan Levinson*

    I (almost) encountered the most embarrassing thing I could have ever done at work yesterday.

    My husband and I have been trying to have a baby for a little while now. My husband had a *ahem* fertility check earlier this week. The clinic called me yesterday afternoon to tell me his results were good. I asked if they could email me the specific numbers from his test. They told me they weren’t able to email it, but could fax it. I gave them my work fax number (small office) and asked that they please fax it over ASAP so no one would grab the fax of the machine before I could get there. I stood at the fax machine for a few minutes after hanging up, when I suddenly realized that incoming faxes (recent change) now come through via email to a GROUP EMAIL of 5 individuals, including myself, my boss (female), my coworker and good friend (female), and two other male coworkers. I absolutely flipped out. I went into my coworker’s office who I am close with, and told her the situation (I about died of embarrassment). She was super cool about it and suggested I call our corporate help desk to have the fax revoked before it came over via email. I called the help desk who was able to revoke the email before it came over. My coworker and I had a good laugh about it afterwards. BULLET. DODGED. I honestly cannot think of a more embarrassing potential situation. I was just imagining my male coworkers and boss opening that email only to see an attachment titled “Mr. Levinson’s fertility check” with a breakout of all the numbers of his swimmers. I would have died!

  129. Another timing question*

    Hello commentariat! If your boss was leaving late Feb/early March, would you prefer to learn about it post Xmas or before? I want to give them some time to absorb before the rest of the org learns in January. It’s because of health reasons but I’m not planning to give details, just that I’m stepping back, taking a break and may do consulting after a while. Thanks for any input!

    1. misspiggy*

      Post, definitely. I’d want to get through the end of the year without worrying about upcoming changes, and hopefully after a good break I’d be in a better place to hear that you were leaving. Plus January is plenty of notice for a Feb/March departure.

    2. Workerbee*

      When will the rest of the org learn? If that’ll be in early January, then you might want to call a quick meeting of your employees with a calm heads-up now. It’s still a couple weeks before Christmas, after all.

      But I’m going off my own preference of knowing details that will affect me sooner rather than later so I can adjust/make my own decisions/etc.

    3. Another timing question*

      If it makes any difference I’m in a field where both December and January are quite busy.

      1. Another timing question*

        And we will tell rest of org in early January. My boss is quietly talking to a few trusted sources about top candidates to take my place.

  130. Is Freelancing Really Bad?*

    So I currently work part time-ish–about 28 hours a week. I’ve tried to find a new job at 40 hours a week and benefits…but haven’t had any luck. I’ve gone on interviews but then never get offers.

    So instead I started looking on upwork and networking for freelancing clients. Some people think this is horrible and I just need to get a “regular job” except unless I want a 3 hour daily commute (which I don’t) that just doesn’t seem to be in the cards for me. It really doesn’t bother me to do this freelancing work. Yeah it sucks I don’t get PTO or Benefits but really that is nothing new I’ve never had a job that has offered that.

  131. ESFJ FWIW*

    What sayeth the commentariat about departments taking personality tests like StrengthFinders, Myers-Briggs, etc? I’ve always pushed back *hard* because the results lack any scientific rigor, but HR folks seem to really find them useful. I recently have heard a few stories where dysfunctional teams were able to pull together following such a test; it seemed to trigger the realization “not everyone is like me.”

    I think we can all agree that extreme uses of the tests, like denying someone a promotion because they came out as “Introvert” and the role demands public interaction, is Terrible. But outside of that kind of abuse, can these tests have value?

    1. Bluebell*

      Sometimes I think they can be helpful with how to work with people who are different types. At the very least it makes you realize that not everyone thinks like you do, or prefers the same things.

      1. Mouse in the House*

        Agreed! I mean, we had one where we were a “North,” a “South,” an “East,” or a “West,” and we moved around the room to our group and then discussed what the different styles meant. It was absolutely not taken as something scientific, but when we discussed the traits, it did help us understand why colleague X or Y did things a certain way.

    2. mr. brightside*

      The only value I have ever found in them is in the team building of grousing about how pointless they are with my coworkers.

    3. Colette*

      I think they can be very useful when it comes to the realization that not everyone has the same preferences/communication styles, and that one is not intrinsically better than another.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I think they are helpful in a more casual way, in that they can be good conversation starters to help people talk about their working styles, outlooks, etc. But I wouldn’t put much weight on them beyond that. I once worked at private university where the president made every new hire take the test (including me) and used that information when determining where to place the hire for a job. He took into account my experience, but I think he put way too much weight on the personality test and it made me feel like he thought I was just another INTP (to be herded with all the other INTPs) instead of an individual person with my own preferences and goals. (One of the many reasons I left that place pretty quickly.)

    5. Not All*

      I hate them with a passion.

      I *do* find the discussion around the different types and approaches useful. The whole “not everyone is the same” thing. But in my sad experience, the second coworders/managers find out that people got a certain result, they pigeonhole people for all eternity. Since the tests have extremely low consistency and validity, those pigeonholes are more often than not pretty far off from the actual skills and preferences of those involved.

      On the rare occasions where I can’t schedule a doctor’s appointment or some other ’emergency’ to get out of them, I just make sure my quiz comes out to a very bland middle-of-the-road type. Every test out there is super easy to rig to whatever result you want.

  132. Anonforthis*

    Anyone have experience interviewing for jobs while visibly pregnant? I’m a lawyer, and I think employers are going to say “haha nope” if I’m interviewing while 6 months pregnant, knowing that I will need to take time off after the baby is born. My husband keeps brushing me off, saying “it’ll be fine” because of my experience, etc, but I think he’s just ignoring the reality of 1) being a young woman in a male dominated industry, 2) being a pregnant woman in the U.S., and 3) being a pregnant lawyer looking for a job.

    Maybe I’m just overthinking it, but my fear is that if I start interviewing, it is going to close off a bunch of opportunities – they’ll say no, and I can’t go back and try again after the baby is born. Note for context – I work in a niche industry, so there aren’t too many companies/firms that have my type of practice.

    1. Eleanor Konik*

      I got out of law for this and other gender-related reasons, and I think you’d have an easier time getting a job with a company than a firm, so maybe put more of your energy into looking for corporate jobs, if that’s an option, until after the baby is born? That way you’re still trying and you don’t have to try to convince your husband why you’re “not bothering” to look for work.

    2. Binky*

      Unless absolutely necessary, I wouldn’t interview while visibly pregnant. First, because you don’t get FMLA until you’ve worked somewhere for a year. Second, because hiring is such a slow process, even if things are going well I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re just getting to second interviews as delivery approaches. And third, I would also be concerned that employers will nope out and then I’d always be dismissed based on stupid sexist stuff.

  133. Zillah*

    I’ve been working PT on a like a 6 month short-term project at an organization. My coworker left her job about a month ago. She encouraged me to apply for it, I did, and I have an interview next week with my boss and a couple people I’m acquainted with.

    All appearances are that they’re happy with my work and that my coworkers like me; they explicitly tell me that I’m doing a great job, are visibly enthusiastic and tell people about some of the procedures I’ve created to save a lot of time, seem happy that I’m really engaged in the work, and definitely initiate socializing with me. And the work my coworker did is definitely different, but there’s a fair amount of overlap she was confident that I could do it. (And we have the same degrees.)

    But also, I suffer from chronically low self-esteem and depression, and also my mother passed away from a neurodegenerative disease a few days after I started work, which hasn’t helped that mindset. (They know that happened and were really supportive.) So even though I’ve gotten really good feedback and everything seems great, I hate myself and think that I suck and can’t get hired, and every little mistake I make takes on disproportionate significance in my mind.

    I’ve needed a little training for a couple things/it took me some times to remember where everything is. I’ve worked from home a few times when I had a migraine and a couple colds (the latter of which my boss did send me home for, in my defense?) (other people work from home too sometimes and I haven’t taken many sick days at all), and I often get in a little later than most people because AD/HD (although the hours are flexible and I have fewer hours and I stay later if I have to) (please no lectures on AD/HD lateness etc etc it is what it is and I’m working on it), and once I cried in the bathroom for a few minutes because something triggered some trauma (combination of my mom dying and something that happened in my city that was traumatic for a lot of people).

    And my mindset is bad, and I don’t know how to make it better and prepare, even though logically I know that I’m (probably) not a bad candidate? IDFK.

    2. Colette*

      1. It sounds like therapy might be helpful for you in general (although that won’t help you for the interview next week).
      2. Check out Alison’s guide on how to prepare for an interview. That might help you think through how to talk about your skills/experience.
      3. You might not get this job – and your worth as a person has nothing to do with whether you get the job or not. If you don’t get this one, there will be another chance somewhere else.
      4. Think about the interview as a conversation with colleagues. You’ve talked with your boss before – this is just another conversation. You should prepare, of course, but it’s just a conversation.
      5. You’ve had a hard year; be kind to yourself. (And make an effort to talk positively about yourself to yourself – i.e. don’t let your inner voice talk badly about you.)

    3. fposte*

      I’m so sorry about your mother, Zillah; if you posted that here, I missed it.

      The employee you’ve been is the employee you’ve been. It seems to have been good enough for them, and, more to the point, you can’t change that now. Whatever strategies you have to avoid ruminating/spiraling/perseverating, draw on them. But you also can’t treat your performance as an employee as tea leaves for this opening–there are too many other factors here. It sounds like you’re a good solid candidate, and I really hope you get the job, but even if you don’t, you were still a good solid candidate and it was still a smart thing for you to apply.

      Between now and your interview, think less about the past and more about you in this new job. What do you think it would mean to the company to have Zillah doing this work? How does that work fit in with other units and the overall goals? What areas could you bring your track record of improving procedures to bear on?

      But also try to give your brain and body some breathing room–go for a walk, see a friend, do stuff that matters outside of this (but especially, if possible, move physically). There’s a pretty short limit on what you can actually do for the interview before the interview, and going beyond that makes it harder, not better. Find some other ways to soak up the stress and adrenaline and get you in a good mental position for next week.

      Good luck!

  134. OutlookNotSoGood*

    What do you all do when a mandatory attendee declines a meeting invitation for a meeting that was already agreed on? I’ve been having this happen a lot lately and usually it was an accident but sometimes it was intentional and they just… expected me to reschedule with no further information?

    If it makes a difference, these are usually clients, not coworkers, so I do have to tread carefully.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      If it’s a client, I usually follow up in email asking what time/date they’d prefer or if another representative will be handling the meeting from their end (and if so, what’s their contact info so they can be added to the invite). It’s annoying they don’t follow up themselves, but when it’s a client you’re a little limited in your options.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Also, is this happening a lot one particular client, or is this happening across all clients? Either way, I’d look at how you’re scheduling meetings if it’s happening a lot. Are you asking them for availability first? If you have clients that are really hard to schedule, maybe email first with a quick:

        “Hello, Client –
        We’d like to set up a meeting to cover off on the below. We have availability –list of 3-ish dates and times — Do any of these work for your team? If not, we’re happy to schedule a time that’s more convenient for you.

        Agenda:
        – Point 1
        – Point 2
        – Point 3

        Appreciated,
        Me”

        Then you’re making them pick the time, plus you have a mini agenda that you can include/expand on in the meeting invite. One they’ve already seen, so they’re more likely to remember what the heck is going on when that meeting pops up on their calendar.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      If it’s a client, how is it mandatory? Is there something in the contract that say they would have to pay some extra fee for missing a meeting?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Mandatory sounds like the meeting wouldn’t/shouldn’t take place without the client, and was scheduled specifically so that the client could attend.

        I think Ginger Ginger’s approach is your only good option. It’s inconvenient for sure and the client should be countering with a specific time/date change, but if you need to keep them, just keep offering new time and dates.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, if I saw a decline on a previously agreed-upon meeting, I’d email the client right away to say “Hey, it looks as if this meeting we agreed to before no longer works for you. Do you want to reschedule? What are some dates that would work for you in the next [period of time]?”

  135. Humble Schoolmarm*

    First question on an open thread! This one is mostly for teachers, I guess. I have been out on bereavement leave for most of this week but will be back on Monday. Should I sneak in after school to find out what I’m coming back to or just try to keep it out of my head for the weekend and roll with whatever comes on Monday? I’m trying to be less of a teacher martyr, but I also don’t want to be overwhelmed when I get back.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t sneak into school, but maybe just take a sneak peek at your email to see if there were any crises that occurred while you were out?

    2. Eleanor Konik*

      I teach middle school and was recently out on bereavement. There’s no “right answer” here — it depends heavily on your own emotional state and your school culture. My suggestion would be to check your email over the weekend (but don’t reply to anything! You can draft something, but definitely don’t send it until Monday.) and then go in early on Monday, unless the not-knowing is making things MORE stressful for you.

      1. Eleanor Konik*

        Replying to add: make sure that your lesson plan on Monday doesn’t require a lot from you, just in case everything is a disaster.

  136. Can't Sit Still*

    My company hires about 50 paid interns every year. Since we are located in Silicon Valley, we also pay a stipend to interns who move here for the summer. Some of our employees think this is unfair and that the out of town interns are getting more compensation than local interns. First, a lot of our local interns are children of our employees. Second, if a local intern needed the housing stipend, it would be provided. We have an employee assistance fund for that sort of situation. Using the fund is confidential, so it’s not like anyone would know if someone were receiving funds, unless they shared the information themselves. Not only that, the assistance isn’t considered compensation, because reasons. (I am too tired to remember exactly why, but the fund is run by a separate entity, I think.)

    So, is it fair for out-of-town interns to receive a housing stipend and local interns to receive no additional compensation? I think it is – it levels the playing field and allows people to accept internships who wouldn’t otherwise be able to come to Silicon Valley. It diversifies our workplace, for one, since we do hire regularly hire interns after they graduate (with relocation packages if necessary, of course.) One of our department’s interns had always dreamed of coming to California, but they couldn’t afford it on their own. They were so excited and happy to be here. They ultimately decided California wasn’t for them long-term, but they were really happy they got the chance to find out.

    1. mr. brightside*

      I think you should have the same compensation. You don’t know local interns’s living situations and probably don’t want to start asking if they need the money and make it a whole big thing for them to apply to.

    2. matcha123*

      I agree with you. Someone coming from the east coast is going to have to go through a lot more than someone who lives in the neighborhood. Providing that assistance shows that your company understands that coming from far is difficult and that they want to make the playing field more level.
      If many of the local interns are children of employees, and it’s the parents that are complaining, I just roll my eyes at that. It sounds like they don’t want any other kid to have what they think of as an advantage of their own kid…

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Got it one. Yes, the parents are the ones complaining. Parents who expect that their kids will live at home until marriage. Granted, their kids may want to get away from them, but that’s kind of outside the purview of the company. If their parents are forcing them to accept the internship, they’re not going to allow them to live outside the family home, either.

        Our new parent company provides housing to interns, so I don’t think it will come up next year. Regardless, I suspect that the stipend is actually need-based, and not location-based, and Jane and Fergus are just making assumptions. (Since I don’t have anything to do with running the intern program, I don’t know for sure. I can generally depend on my company doing things the ethical way, though.)

        1. spock*

          > Granted, their kids may want to get away from them, but that’s kind of outside the purview of the company.

          But, by not giving local interns a stipend because their parents live here, you *are* taking it into the purview of the company. You’re making a very concrete financial decision based off of this fact.

          1. Can't Sit Still*

            We definitely agree that the stipend should be need based. But I can’t imagine an employee speaking up and saying, “Actually, my child is getting a stipend,” while their co-workers are ranting about the stipends, though. The ranting was more about how unfair it was to the parents that their kids weren’t receiving the stipend.

            I am completely unsympathetic to people who make more in a year than me and three of my colleagues put together complaining about how unfair it is that an intern from Mississippi is getting a housing stipend while their kid isn’t.

      2. Girl friday*

        Just separate it out from the normal stipend and call it a relocation stipend, with the minimum relocation qualification at a hundred miles-or whatever makes the most sense for your business. And increase it :-).

    3. Elle*

      I’ve never heard of it being any other way (I work in tech, but not Silicon Valley). I guess *technically* I can see how it would be unfair… but housing stipends are more about making it physically possible for an intern to come to work, than they are about compensation. True, it sucks if someone already paying for their own apartment has to continue paying for their own apartment. But it also sucks if they have the option to, say, live at home and pocket the cash while another intern cannot.

      The way a lot of companies handle it around here is that they arrange housing for interns, basically a bunch short term rentals with a few bedrooms each, each intern gets their own bedroom. At the time offers are accepted, each intern is asked whether they’d like to take advantage of the housing or not. So most people who already have leases or other arrangements say no, its not worth it to them to move for 15 weeks. But those who need it are glad for it.

      I do think there is a benefit / business case to putting all the interns in housing together though – better relationships forming, etc. Plus they were all able to commute together.

      1. spock*

        When I had an internship in the valley, I could choose to live in company housing and while the cost was subsidized, it came out of my paycheck. I thought that was very fair – local interns need to pay rent too. You say some have relatives in the area, but if some people are giving their adult relatives a rent-free place to live, that doesn’t make it true for all local interns, and I would be pretty bummed if I heard I was getting less money because my employers assume I should live with my parents. Some local intern might be able to afford rent so wouldn’t apply to an employee assistant fund, but would still feel that it was unfair. Assuming you’re paying for flights at the start and end of summer, it doesn’t really level the field to give assistance based on geography rather than need.

    4. Geographic Equity*

      I think the way things are set up sounds like the best way to recruit a more diverse group of applicants. When you are in the hub for your industry, especially in an expensive area, it is good to branch out and try to get talent from other places.

  137. Forkeater*

    Just want to vent. I’ve been helping Cersei with a project and she has second-guessed everything I’ve done for it. For example:

    Cersei: “why are you showing dates in 2019? It must be wrong because it’s not 2019!”
    Me: “The data file you provided had dates in 2019.”

    Cersei: “This number doesn’t match.”
    Me: “This page just shows a subset of the total population.”

    It came to a head this week when she skipped our office holiday party – then DM’ed me during the party (making my phone buzz) to bring up another non issue.

    Cersei: “Some of the people you said are missing data have data in another system [that’s not part of the project”
    Me: [nothing – but the answer is my data is the official data for this metric and has been thoroughly validated, as she well knows]

    We have a meeting at 3 to discuss the project and my main goal is to make sure I don’t do anything to completely destroy our relationship because I am truly at the end of my patience with her. Any advice?

    On a happy note, I had an excellent phone screen for a great position this morning. I like my organization overall but the roles I’ve held her have not been exactly what I’m looking for. The new job is very similar to what I’m doing now so wouldn’t necessarily be more fascinating but it’s more money and exposure to a new industry, I’d be happy to stick all that into savings while I think about what my dream job would be.

    1. SansaStark*

      I sympathize. I have a Cersei over here. Since I suspect my Cersei of doing these things to undermine me, I’ve tried to use Alison’s approach of trying to at least appear genuinely curious when she brings up a perceived issue/flaw. It might also help to just name the thing you’re seeing – as in, “you seem to have some concerns about the data (or whatever). Is there another approach that would help?” Not that you’re trying to do things her way to please her, but making her say what she wants might make her realize that you’re either onto her or that she’s not sure what she wants. Good luck – that sounds frustrating.

  138. Sienna*

    I just need a sanity check from the commentariat.

    I couldn’t go to the company holiday party. I gave notice weeks before the rsvp cut off date that I could not attend due to a family obligation that had already been planned months in advance. I told my manager and the company owner this. The company owner is upset that I did not attend. I hear that he likes to make a big show at the holiday party, enjoys being the center of attention at the holiday party, and feeds off of people being overly polite to him. Why are they overly polite? Because he hands out the bonus checks at the end of the party. To ensure maximum participation and to kinda force people to stay to the end.

    I’m new-ish here and didn’t know this. I’ve called the operations manager (who is the closest we have to an HR department) about my bonus check. He told me to contact the company owner, which I did. The company owner has not gotten back to me in over a week – I know he’s in the office and not on holiday vacation yet.

    Doesn’t this seem insanely obnoxious to anyone else? What would you do in this situation? I could really use that money but the company owner is taking it very personally that I did not attend his shindig.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you get your manager involved?

      “Hey, Manager, I learned that bonus checks went out at the party. Ops Manager recommended I reach out to Company Owner directly for my bonus since I was unable to attend. I did that, but he hasn’t got back to me. I know we’re all crazy busy in the lead up to the holidays, but I’m wondering what my path forward here should be. I don’t want it to get lost in the holiday crush and all the time off coming up. Can you reach out to Company Owner to get info on what my next steps are?”

    2. 653-CXK*

      Wow…just exactly how egotistical and narcissistic is this company owner, anyway? They’re holding your bonus like a petulant spoiled child because Something Not Work Related cut into their expected ego stroking?

      I second Ginger Ginger’s email to the manager, and I would add this: “I know that I was scheduled to be out that day due to a family obligation, so I’d like to understand why I was not included in the bonus check distribution.” At best, they might be shamed into giving a reason why, but I think this owner has his head too far up his jujenum to understand that Life Happens.

      You’re new and while you’re not expected to know all of the politics in that office, but this owner is an utter ass and he’s not going to change. Be prepared to leave if it gets worse.

  139. Echo*

    I run an activity group at work that is quasi-affiliated with the company, think something like a company pickup sports team or book club. I have one direct report, who has joined the group. This isn’t an ethical issue, right? I’m assuming it’s okay because this isn’t like a friendship outside of work, and because I only have one report so it wouldn’t lead to concerns about favoritism. But I just wanted to get an AAM commenter gut check!

    1. Ok_Go_West*

      I wouldn’t go so far as to say an “ethical” issue. If it leads to you become more friendly than you’d normally be, it can make for awkward situation in the future, just like in any supervisor-supervisee relationship. I used to run a small professional group that met at my home. Some of my direct reports chose to join and some did not, and there were also people not from our company but in a similar field. Because we work remotely, this led to some direct reports getting more time with me than others. Nothing bad happened, but it felt odd and not quite right after a while, even though the original point was to give people who are professionally isolated more of a network. It’s not the same as your situation, but proceed with caution and do your own gut check from time to time, and be prepared to transfer leadership of the group over to someone else if things don’t feel good.

  140. Autumn Anon*

    Autistic members of the AAM commentariat, I have an interview/ skills assessment next Wednesday for a job I really want and I’d really appreciate some advice. How on earth do you do a group interview when you’re Autistic? Do I tell them? If so, how? What do I need to remember to do/not to do? How much should I aim to be talking? Any tips? Is there anything you wish you’d known?

    For the non-Autistic people here, what kinds of thing should I be aiming to do? What would your expectations of yourselves or of candidates you were assessing be? Do you have any tips?

    1. Michio Pa*

      Not autistic, but I was in a group interview once where one person, who ended up getting the job, repeated the question asked of the group towards everyone else, setting herself up as kind of the leader/arbiter of the interview. She would then “call on” someone who had been quiet, praise and reword people’s ideas, basically set herself up as the moderator. It was super sneaky and clever and if the job required any sort of management skills I would use some of those techniques.

      For myself, I just focused on the timing of when to speak–not interrupting anyone but not letting the chance slip by–and trying to expand on what others said. Rather than think of a totally new idea, it’s easier for me to say, “That’s a really interesting idea (bonus points if you can remember their name). In my experience I ran into a problem with that (describe problem) and solved it by doing xyz.” Sometimes group interviews try to pit you against each other, but I think if you can remember the meta-conversation happening (that you’re all in an interview and demonstrating how you work with others), then you will do great!

  141. Bagworm*

    I have a staff member who’s been taking a lot of time off for doctor’s appointments (at least a half day every other week for a few months now). It’s not impacting her work performance and she has the time available but I don’t know if I should ask if everything is ok or somehow express concern. As I said, I’m not concerned about her performance but I don’t want to seem like I don’t care if she’s ill or something. Should I check in somehow or just continue to ignore it other than approving the time off?

    1. mr. brightside*

      What kind of relationship do you have? I’ve had a supervisor in the past who if she came to me and said “hey, I’m a bit concerned about your sick time, please let me know if you need to be taking more to handle an event, if you need time off, we’re here for you”. And then I’ve had supervisors where if they pointed out my sick time (which I already know I’m taking, since I’m taking it), it would be seriously awkward.

      But a regular appointment like that could be anything. It could be physical therapy, it could be getting various injections that have to be scheduled, it might be therapy. It isn’t necessarily anything that might get worse, it might just be maintenance.

      1. LKW*

        Agreed. There could be so many things. Assume that if you were close enough, your colleague would have explained why she’s out. Since she hasn’t, if you point out her absences are noticeable, it may be negatively received. I say either stay mum or precede any questions with “This is none of my business and I don’t need to know diddly but if there is anything you need, please let me know how I can support you.”

    2. Rey*

      If you are not concerned about her performance, I would follow her lead of not talking about it. If you wanted to make sure she feels supported, at a time when you aren’t approving her time off, you could say something like, “We are grateful for the great work you’ve been doing, and want to make sure that we’re continuing to support employees. X and Y are some options we’ve let employees use in the past, and if you ever need that, you can email me to set it up (or whatever the right process would be).”

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I tend to be pretty casual and also welcome privacy from my staff, so I might say something in a regular check-in like, “I hope everything’s OK — let me know if there’s anything we can do.” To me, that lets her say everything’s fine and leave it at that if she wants to. (Or she can share if it’s a situation like I had a couple of years ago where my regular physical turned into approximately one million follow-up appointments, none of which turned into anything bad.)

    4. Bagworm*

      Thanks for the replies. I did end up saying something the next time we had a chat. I just said I didn’t want to pry and it’s fine if she didn’t want to share but I wanted her to know I hope everything’s ok and she can let me know if she needs support with something. She said nothing’s going on and seemed a little uncomfortable so I’m not sure I pulled it off. Oh well. Hopefully she’s not uncomfortable for long. I definitely won’t raise it again but I feel a little better that I acknowledged it.

  142. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

    We hired a new person. This person is my colleague, I am not a manager. New person talks… and talks… and talks… Ask him a question and the answer could take 5 minutes for a simple yes or no question. Discuss a project you’re working on and he’ll immediately give you his thoughts about what he would do and how he would handle. He’s been here a week. I am really hoping this is just over-enthusiasm that will settle down. But… what if it’s not… I’m not sure I can take it.

      1. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

        True, but sometimes I do and I can feel my brain cells leaping off the cliff when he starts to expound on every thing.

        1. fposte*

          Sure, but there are good skills for you to develop here. “Sorry, Bob, I need you to hold that thought until break–I have to get back to work.” Learning to email Bob instead of asking him out loud (“Just so we have it in a format I can consult, Bob, I wanted to ask you this in email”). Putting in earbuds and refocusing your attention. Etc.

    2. Revoked work from home*

      I feel ya. Our newest hire kind of chats and narrates what he’s doing to himself / the room at large all day, interspersed with questions / observations. I’m giving him time to settle down first but then I will start requesting that he can it.

  143. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    A month ago I was told that my beloved manager – the best supervisor I’ve had in over 20 years of working – was being moved to the other team in my department. Not the worst news, as she would still work on mutual projects with our team and be located just one office down so we could till chat/touch base occasionally. As well, one of my peers who I like and respect is taking over our team, so I think she’ll be a fine manager.

    Last week were were told that she is no longer going to be taking that position, and instead is taking a position at another facility in a different state. Her last day is in two weeks, so it’s thrown a huge wrench into the transition plan and everyone is having trouble processing so much change in a short period of time. I’m anticipating a LOT of chaos when we all come back to the office after the holidays.

  144. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I had my first official performance review (in 3 years–they stopped doing them for a while) at my job. While I received “exceeds expectations” for all categories, I’m still a bit disappointed I didn’t get “outstanding” in anything. My manager had only positive feedback and no negative feedback for me (which frustrates me to no end). When I asked her directly how I can improve and what I need to focus on getting stronger in, my boss just said “you’ll naturally improve as you gain more experience”–which, okay, but that’s not exactly anything concrete to focus on. I’ve been doing my job for three years at this point (and came into the job with years of related experience in another field), so it’s not like I’m fresh out of college or grad school. How am I to interpret this, other than my manager thinks of me as a bit green still? Is there something I can actually do with this feedback for improvement?

    1. LKW*

      Talk to her again. Do a little internal research to find out what would merit an “outstanding” if possible and if that information isn’t available, go back and ask her again to clarify what would be an outstanding performance. What does she need to see from you and how can you work with her to get the opportunities to show your capabilities.

    2. CastIrony*

      I got similar feedback when I was rejected for an internal position- it stinks! I’m so sorry!

      Is there certifications you can take to show that you have the training to move up? Other than that, just keep doing what you’re doing and find little ways to be more efficient, such as making copies and getting a drink from a water fountain on the same trip.

    3. Meredith Brooks*

      I had a boss that didn’t believe anyone should receive the top rating, as it meant there was no further room for improvement. Logically I can see her point, but her use of it was a bit of an extreme. (She also loved offering her critique on things, so I believe this was influenced by her critical nature) Nonetheless, your boss is basically telling you that you’re doing a good job and you’re on the right track and the things you need to improve, you are actively improving as you experience the job. As Allison has mentioned, sometimes bosses suck at feedback. Rather than asking her how you can achieve an outstanding, (which I think might make you look like you’re more interested in the rating than the feedback) — you can ask direct questions about the skills you have and the projects/work activities you do. Hey boss, I noticed you edited my jacket copy for the latest Fabio romance novel, any thoughts as to what I should keep in mind when I write the next one?

      I

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah I was going to say, some people grade on a really hard curve where “outstanding” means, “I’ve never seen a human achieve this level and would need to be totally blown away to give it to you.” That’s really tough in orgs where bonuses are related to your review score. IMO it typically requires a senior person or peer to flag this for a boss and nudge them to reward their people better, because it’s not going to land coming from the subordinate.

    4. Higher Ed Database Dork*

      I got similar feedback at my last review, and I asked my manager for some concrete examples of what “improving through experience” looks like. He told me to focus on my troubleshooting skills; improve my knowledge of Linux; cross-train with my coworkers and review their work – very specific things I can actually do. Can you ask your boss for some things like this that would be appropriate for your job? Or you could write out a list of things like this and review them with her to make sure you’re on the same page.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I did once get to this type of info by saying, “what would it look like for me to get an ‘outstanding’ in X category?’ Somehow my boss was able to answer this question where he couldn’t articulate his issues when I just asked for feedback.

    5. Overeducated*

      I don’t know the rules of your workplace, but in mine employees are entitled to ask for measurable standards for what achieving “outstanding” would look like (based on both HR and union rules). Maybe check on if your workplace has a stipulation like that and go back to your boss saying you’d like to talk about more measurable goals?

  145. a good mouse*

    I’m currently on a project that is understaffed and falling behind into a more and more compressed schedule. I’m a lead on programming part of this, and I have a second person on my work. As I was being delayed from starting because things weren’t ready, I volunteered on a project for one of the executives, and ended up continuing to lead a project for her.

    So now I might have an opportunity to go work for her full time, and I want to take it. It would mean transitioning into a mid-level producer role, something I will probably never get another opportunity to do.

    My question is, how do I tell people I’m taking this opportunity, given that I’m not leaving the company and I am leaving them scrambling on an already stressful project? I should be able to give a month’s notice for them to find someone else and transition info, but it’s a specialized programming language and I don’t know who they would find to replace me.

    1. OtterB*

      Is there any chance that the opportunity for the executive could wait until the other project is finished? Depends on how long the programming project will take and if there’s anything time-sensitive in the new role.

  146. CastIrony*

    I am posting a lot lately, but I have another question:
    I was to be interviewed for a position five hours away from me. Unfortunately, when they called me for an interview, I asked for a phone interview because it was too far away to go to on a day’s notice (I had to work, and because I am not a skilled driver on the interstate, the bus ticket would be too much on my meager income, but I didn’t mention this). They said they’d coordinate with the whole interview committee and call me back, because they usually see people face-to-face. Should I call them back or move on? If I do, I have a local interview for the same position coming up.

    1. WellRed*

      I guess it wouldn’t hurt to reach out once, then let it go. If you are going to be needing to travel, can you work on setting aside a bit of money to make it easier? I know it’s hard on a tight budget.

  147. AnitaJ*

    20 weeks pregnant and come January 31 I will be unemployed…all full time employees are being laid off. I’m bummed and disheartened. Talked to recruiters but nobody is too optimistic about a pregnant woman finding a full time job right now. Anyone else been through this?

    1. blaise zamboni*

      Oh man, that really stinks. My heart goes out to you.

      I don’t have personal experience with this, but my ex’s sister was interviewing and accepted a position while she was ~8 months pregnant. Her biggest worry was having medical coverage through her delivery and maternity leave, and the company she went with was extremely accommodating of that. So it can be done! All you can do is try, and it will likely serve you better to be optimistic when you do. (I know that’s easier said than done.)

      Good luck! Sending you good vibes.

  148. Maddie*

    I posted a few weeks ago about my former toxic company calling me 3 weeks after I had quit, begging me to come back for 2 days to clean up the mess the person that they’d hired to replace me had made of the system. Well, the 2 days turned into 4, because it was so much worse than they realized. He hadn’t listened to any of the training I’d given him, and then passed none of it on to the other person who came on after I left (I’d been covering 2 jobs for 3+ months).

    Well, I got the shock of my life yesterday. I got a text from one of them asking if I had time for a phone convo later that day. I’m like what now, but ok, I’ll hear them out and be firm on saying “no.” I get on the phone and the owner is also there. They apologized for the crazyness, for making me cover 2 jobs for ages, and then said that even tho I’d quit they had decided to cut me in on the companies end-of-year profit share since I’d done so much for them.

    I was so shocked I actually forgot to even ask how much it was for. Guess we’ll see on Monday when they said it will be direct deposited into my account.

    1. Maddie*

      To be clear, I’m still glad I quit. That place was a toxic swarm of bees.

      My guess is that they’re trying to butter me up to ask me in January to come back, but I might just be being cynical.

      1. Higher Ed Database Dork*

        Wow. I’ve never heard of a company doing that. I’d be cynical too…but hey, they can butter you up all they want, just enjoy your deposit. :)

  149. baster*

    hello!

    in the process of a conversation i got to talking about a conversion I’d had at the office holiday party with steve (our ceo) brianne (a coworker) and brianne’s same sex +1. brianne told me (not actively in confidence, but not with the rest of the company) that her +1 was her technically her ex, but they were sort of on-again-off-again, and that essentially the nature of their relationship was complicated previously. i don’t know if brianne is out at work.

    so when this came up, i said “oh, we were with steve, brianne, and …” … and at this point i’m thinking …. ex? girlfriend? … and i just said “brianne’s partner.”

    later on, brianne, and a fourth person, adam, were talking about this. brianne said, “way to out me at work” and laughed.

    i feel really bad! how much did i fuck up here? i apologized as sincerely as i could, and she said it’s fine, but… now am i doomed? shit.

    1. Phoenix Programmer*

      Honestly – this is on brienne. If you are not out at work you need to let people know thatwhen you come out to them. One of the ways to be a Good Ally TM is to normalize same sex relationships and the easiest way to do that is to talk about partners and spouses the same as you would if the we’re het relations.

    2. Washi*

      I think if Brianne says it’s fine, you can proceed along the assumption that it’s fine and chalk it up to a learning experience. And I would say the take away is to try to stay cool. I don’t think using the word partner would necessarily out anyone, since I hear that more and more for het relationships, but “We were out with Brianne’s………partner” would have the effect of outing someone. But if you’re put on the spot and not sure if the person is out, I think you had the right idea in keeping it vague “we were out with some friends” or “Brianne’s partner” seem fine to me.

    3. Kes*

      I mean, she did bring a same sex +1 to the company party… not sure how you were outing her unless she was telling everyone that her plus one was just a friend or something like that. But in that case, she should have told you that so you’d know what to say – not sure how you were expected to know that it was a secret that her plus one was her partner.

    4. Michio Pa*

      Not in favor of outing anyone at work, but if someone brought a same-sex +1 to a company party, I would assume it was their partner unless otherwise told (that it was their sister, friend, etc.). So even if Brienne hadn’t mentioned the on/off part, I could have accidentally outed her. So I think that’s on Brienne–don’t bring someone to the company party if you don’t want people at the party to know your relationship with them. That said, I think you can take away the lesson that you should be careful discussing significant others with other people, like if you met Brienne & partner outside of work, don’t mention the partner to her boss, etc.

  150. SophieChotek*

    A word of encouragement to those job searching….

    A friend of mine was laid off from a good job about 3 years ago, and we have both been job-searching for the same amount of time. (We both work at the coffee shop, I frequently mention.) She scored many interviews/2nd & 3rd interviews, etc. but that actual job offer remained elusive.

    I know she was very discouraged, maxing out her credit cards, and in fear of losing her house.

    She was just hired and started this week at better pay, benefits, pension, etc.

    It was a long, hard 3 years, but now she is in a great place.

    So I believe it can happen for you (and me) and all of us still job-searching.

    (Sorry overwhelmed at work, will try to pop back in later and read others’ posts.)

  151. Ann Perkins*

    Does your organization compensate somebody extra if they’re temporarily covering the job duties of two?

    Context: I’ve had a few different times where there was turnover in my direct report’s job, resulting in me covering that set of duties because I’m the only one fully trained to handle it. I was never bonused extra and I didn’t think it was standard practice to do so.
    I’m about to be on maternity leave and the person covering my tasks had the option of us paying to use a program to help cover, but said she wanted the extra money, so I’m guessing she negotiated a bonus from our boss as part of covering my leave. Now I’m kicking myself that I never asked for a bonus or extra comp when I was doing the work of two.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      My current job compensates people who take on higher-level tasks temporarily, but not lower-level. Ie, when I was trying to hire someone to work for me, I was doing a lot of the role that person would do and didn’t get any kind of bonus, but the lower-level person who did the rest of it did.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      We do in some cases. HR even has a form letter we use. It basically lays out the extra duties, how long it will last, and how much extra compensation will be provided. It’s usually used when the extra duties are pretty substantial, like covering a large part of someone’s job plus your own for one or more months. There’s been plenty of times that employees don’t get extra compensation for extra work, like when you’re assigned special projects that require extra hours, or when an open position’s responsibilities are shared by the rest of the team until the position is refilled.

    3. WellRed*

      I got a bonus for covering a maternity leave for my boss. But, you csn be darn sure I would not have gotten it had I not asked.

  152. Not a Victim!*

    I have a job interview on Tuesday! Wish me luck everybody.

    My supervisor is a toxic soul-sucking horrible horrible person, and grandboss has a bad temper. If I don’t get the job I’m interviewing for on Tuesday, I have another application started for another job I’m qualified-enough for.

    Just knowing that others would consider hiring me makes it a bit easier to face the toxic personalities where I am.

    3. The Original Karen from Finance*

      Best of luck to you! Stay strong and I hope the next plan you land is with a good and supportive boss :)

  153. Orange You Glad*

    Has anyone here been through an office renovation? How did it go? Were employees moved off site during construction or did the construction work around you?
    My office has been undergoing renovation since June (and likely won’t be complete until April). One section of the office is completed at a time – everyone in the affected area is moved to temporary desks for 2-3 months during construction and then rotated throughout the completed areas.
    During phase 1, the area I work in was renovated first so I was moved across the building and everything was fine. I really wasn’t affect by the construction. During phase 2, I was moved back to the completed area, while another section was worked on. Except all the offices in my area were not constructed correctly so they all have to be rebuilt while we are working. All month it’s been power tools and hammering going on about 6 feet from my desk while they reconstruct the individual offices. I can’t make phone calls. I can’t even think!
    My coworker was complaining that this wouldn’t happen at any other company. I’ve never been through this before but I would think disruptive construction would take place in the evenings or weekends.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      Yeah, that’s weird. The companies I’ve worked for are pretty good at temporarily relocating employees, allowing people to work from home, or scheduling construction to occur when it’s least disruptive. I guess I took it for granted, as I couldn’t image working in a construction zone.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      We had massive construction going on next to our building for 4-5 months, complete with sub-sonic pounding that you could feel even when you didn’t necessarily hear it. I think managers were even more flexible about working from other offices, since many people work from at least two sites, or from home (the less preferred option) during that time. And that wasn’t even construction in the same building. I can’t imagine being forced to work directly next to construction noise. Have you talked to your manager about a reasonable alternative? Does the manager know how significant a problem it is?

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Oh yes, my manager sits right next to me and is just as affected. His boss (the controller) is right next to him. Everyone affected by this is pretty high up in the company so we are all in this together. I think it’s due to the short-sighted-ness of our CEO (who only ever sets foot in the office 2-3 times per year) finding the cheapest way to get this reno done.
        I already work from home 1 day a week so that helps.

      2. Orange You Glad*

        Oh yea, my manager and his boss are both next to me (it’s their offices being built) so we’re all affected. I think it’s just the shortsightedness of our CEO (who only comes in our office 2-3 times per year) trying to find the cheapest way to get the reno done without affecting production.

    3. Kes*

      Oh man, I’ve been through that. They gave us useless little earbuds that did nothing. People started downloading apps to measure the noise (it was right next to us and only supposed to happen before and after certain times… but that didn’t always happen).

      I ended up pointing out to them in an email chain that was going on about the loudness that the noise levels were actually running afoul of health and safety regulations. After that they gave us giant over ear protectors, which I did in fact use (we also continued just going home sometimes when it was at the end of the day and so loud nobody could concentrate). So, you might consider investigating what regulations are in place in your area – being in an area with that kind of noise can in fact cause hearing damage, which is why such rules often exist, so it’s worth taking action to protect your hearing.

  154. Seastar*

    Depression Brain is a jerk to me when I’m seeking guidance and pursuing better employment as a physically disabled person.

    What they say: Here are resources/commuting options/personnel connections you didn’t know about. Here are accommodations you can be sure of from this employer. Here’s why you can broaden the range of job types and locations you pursue. Be hopeful and confident!

    What I hear: You could have advanced your career years ago if you hadn’t been so picky, cautious, ignorant, and self-limiting. Do better, now. Apply for work you don’t know you can do or go to, serving entities you don’t care about, if necessary. Stop worrying about your disabilities and just try to persuade someone to want to hire you.

    What they say: *suggests something I haven’t tried*

    What I think: I need to shoot down this suggestion so I can justify to myself why I haven’t been doing it and thus avoid more self-shaming.

    What they say: *suggests something I have tried*

    What I say: No no no, I did that and it failed/turned out badly. I’ll never do anything like it again.

  155. one time OP*

    I just want to say a quick thank you to Alison and the commenters! I’ve been reading this blog for about a year and a half and it has helped me immensely. I’m a 25 year old professional (2.5 years into my first job out of college) and I share my office with two people who are ~6 months fresh out of school. They frequently comment on my professionalism and ability/advice on how to handle workplace problems. I keep telling them to read AAM, but I’m not sure if they have or not. Thank you to everyone for helping me be the best I can be at work!

  156. Snoozing Loser*

    Yes, the basic policy requires a one-week suspension for falling asleep on the job. Of course, under at-will employment (at least in my understanding) more severe consequences can be imposed for just about any reason that isn’t discriminatory.

    I do like the idea of using the issue to explore any potential employer’s thoughts on reasonable working hours, what is expected of employees (and what is offered in terms of rest periods or other support) when highly extended hours are required, etc. I would also like to find out (at least if I get pretty far into an interview process) how the company handles employee mistakes, to avoid this sort of one-strike-and-you’re-out situation if at all possible. I would definitely want to know those things coming in the door for any future jobs.

    2. Rebecca*

      I am so sad about this. The fact that they have a policy like this in the first place speaks volumes. You were working an insane amount of hours, how could you possibly stay awake? Amphetamines? This is ridiculous. Please, please file for benefits. I would love for this company to explain this to the state – you were punished, a week off without pay for basically being a tired human being and not a robot, and then fired? It’s ridiculous and petty. With any luck, they’ve violated a labor law in your state about working hours, time off for rest, that type of thing. Also, if you know of any malfeasance they’ve pulled, like not paying overtime properly, I’d report that too.

      I am so sorry, and hope this works out for you. You deserve better.

  157. DJ*

    Any advice on how to bring up that I’ll need to have a spot to pump breastmilk? I’m expecting a written offer sometime next week (I’ve gotten the verbal one). The company is still small so they aren’t going to have a specialized room like my current job.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I don’t know how to suggest you bring it up at a new company (I had my child when I’d been with my company for 6 years.) But I can suggest one option you & they might not have otherwise thought of. My company issues a key to the first aid office for the duration. Within the first aid room, there’s a smaller cubicle with a chair & a sofa-like cot. I’d set up there and move the chair across the door because it did not lock.

      Also important, consider getting a mini-fridge for your desk. They’re selling sixpack-sized mini-fridges on Amazon. I would have loved that 12 years ago.

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      Wait until the offer stage after you accept send it matter of factly. By the way I will need a room to express milk. It’s probably already available but in case it isn’t I wanted to let you know prior to my start date.

  158. The Original Karen from Finance*

    This week started really rough. I’m going through some personal issues and doing my best to focus on my work to keep my mind off the personal issues. And I’ve made it a point to not bring those issues into the office with me. I’ve experienced so many random acts of kindness from colleagues this week and I am so grateful. Nothing material or monetary just simple smiles, helping me, and stopping by to chat with me has been so helpful. Just wanted to get this out. If you could be kind to someone today, please do it. You never know just how much you may help someone.

    1. Rebecca*

      I second the kindness gestures, wow, it meant so much to me over the last 21 months. I had so many personal issues, stress, etc. and there were days that I had no idea if I’d get through it, but it meant so much for someone to pop me an IM saying, hey are you OK, can I help? Or to leave a snack on my desk, little things meant so much. Hope your days and weeks go better.

      1. The Original Karen from Finance*

        Thank you so much! I hope your days and weeks go better as well! Hang in there :)

  159. Super dee duper anon*

    I’m late for this, so not sure if anyone will see this… But for those who it make it this far down the page:

    Don’t really need advice, just had to share this story because I’m still a bit aghast. I have a colleague (Fergus) who I’ve been struggling with – they’re overconfident (as well as pretty mansplainy) and they’re making a lot of mistakes that I have to spend time cleaning up (our shared manager is aware/working on it – well actually read on, that might not be 100% accurate). Despite the constant mistakes his cockiness continues to grow. So today, a third colleague comes out and says “Hey Fergus, Manager wants both of us to come to his office to discuss this issue that came up with last month’s teapot painting report”. Fergus’s response (word for word): “Nah, I know how that goes, I’m not doing that”. Third colleague and I made shocked eye contact and she later told me she reported exactly what Fergus said to the manager.

    This guy has got to be on the way out, right? Our company is a bit hesitant to fire people, but they’re not completely against it. I just can’t ever imagine saying flat out “I’m not going to do that” to a manager’s request! Who does that?

    1. Temperance*

      Instead of you making the edits to his mistakes, why not turn the mistakes back over to him to fix?

      1. Super dee duper anon*

        Simple mistakes do get returned to him, but sometimes is stuff that he’s not capable of doing at all, at least not yet. We get a lot of requests from outside depts, some are obviously complex/higher level, but some you cant tell until you get into it. It is expected that if you encounter something you’re unsure of or have never seen before then you say something. Except he doesn’t, he just guesses his way through and doesn’t tell anyone that it wasn’t the simple/straightforward task that it appeared to be. I draw the line at double checking every task he attempts (and manager supports this – I suspect the manager is double checking and is in the documentation phase now)

    2. DarlaMushrooms*

      Who can say? Sometimes bad employees fester in their positions for years because of non-confrontational management.

  160. Annie Edison*

    Is there anyone else out there who really struggles with calling into work?

    I was one of those kids who had commitment drilled into them. I was never allowed to miss school or anything for any reason, even if I was puking my guts out or it was my grandma’s funeral (yes, really). My parents basically told me that if I was conscious I needed to make an effort.

    I guess I really took that to heart because as an adult I find it very upsetting to call in sick to work, even if I know I really should. The one time I have called in I felt so guilty about it I had nightmares for days. From kindergarten to now (late 20s) I have only ever been home sick three times.

    But I think I hit a new low. I was in a sports related accident and dislocated my shoulder…. And I still went to work. I knew I needed to be at a hospital to get it fixed but every time I tried to pick up my phone to call I just found myself saying “no, it’s not bad enough” and until I ended up at the office. And then I tried to bring myself to ask my boss to leave early…. And I couldn’t do it. I worked through the pain and largely hid it from my coworkers, then went to the hospital after work.

    I know this isn’t good for me, but I know that if I had called in I just would have been incredibly angry with myself. I work for a very supportive boss and company so it’s not their policies that’s the issue, it’s 100% me. My boss (and pretty much everyone else I know, including me) is probably seriously questioning my decision making abilities and sanity now. I need to make a change.

    I know everyone says it’s as simple as just calling, but it’s not. Has anyone ever changed their mindset when it comes to this stuff? What did you tell yourself?

    1. LCL*

      If it is duty that is driving you, look at it this way-The company is paying you to be able to function at your job. If you are so sick/busted up/ in pain you can’t function, you aren’t delivering good work for your pay. Better off to stay home.

      Or this way-your parents did what they did because they thought it was in your best interest. In this case, they were wrong. You already know they were wrong. So ask yourself next time you believe you should call in-do I care what mom or dad would want me to do now? They have shown bad judgement on this in the past, why should I listen to them now?

      1. Anna Held*

        This. Also, if it’s something contagious, you’re doing the company and your colleagues a favor by calling in sick.

        But this reaction sounds….extreme. You might want to consider therapy or another way to recalibrate your expectations of yourself. I’d start with Alison — she’s written before about how important it is to use your PTO & sick leave as needed, and that it’s in the company’s best interests to do so, as well as yours. Don’t make your injuries or illness, or even just your day-to-day life, worse to the point that it impacts your work!

      2. Annie Edison*

        It’s hard for me to frame it as function, because I tend to push myself to function. Even with my arm situation I managed to get a full day’s work in. So I am functioning at work. Even if I wasn’t 100% I still see it as being able to do something, which is where my problem is. I’m not entirely incapacitated.

        I think you are right in terms of my parents though, I need to care a lot less about what they think on this stuff. I disagree with them a lot so I don’t know why this one sticks with me so much. I might have more success framing it this way.

        1. LCL*

          Please believe me, I didn’t mean to imply I thought it would be easy.
          For the future, for musculoskeletal stuff, always get a medical opinion ASAP unless you have very good reason to believe it’s nothing.

    2. Lumen*

      First off: I am so, so sorry. I have similar messages ingrained in me, and they’re so damaging. You don’t deserve to feel this way. It’s no way to live, and I hope so much that it gets better for you.

      Now some advice.

      Step one: next time you’re sick or injured, call in.

      Step two: deal with the crap this causes.
      * Feel all the things. Feel the anger and shame. Feel all the crappy messages you’ve internalized about what a terrible worthless person you must be for not working! Feel that voice in your head sneering that it’s your fault for getting sick or injured in the first place. Feel the authoritarian inner critic and all its disgust with you.
      * Write down your nightmares. Hug yourself when you wake up. Meditate if that helps. They’re going to come, we can’t control or stop them, but you don’t have to let the nightmares (or fear of them) control your behavior while you’re awake.
      * Go ahead and cry or yell or punch a pillow. Get the feelings out. Record yourself talking. Write in a journal. But physically, tangibly move the feelings outside of your body, no matter how immature or small or ‘crazy’ they seem to you. You’re feeling these things anyway, whether you think it’s rational or not. Might as well give yourself permission to stop repressing.
      * If you have someone you can share with, share with them. Tell a (willing) friend or partner or therapist what you’re feeling and what that nasty, cruel voice in your head is telling you. Give yourself permission to not only listen to what they have to say but to believe that you actually do deserve their sympathy, comfort, advice, reassurance, etc.
      * Start rebutting that inner voice that is so, so angry at you for calling in. “Um, no, of course I’m not going to work with a dislocated shoulder, that’s absurd.” or “I know what I actually need, but thanks for the unwanted advice. Shush now.” or “No one thinks less of me for this. In fact, they might think less of me for refusing to take care of myself. And you know what? WHO CARES. WHAT SORT OF PERSON WOULD THINK LESS OF ME FOR STAYING HOME WITH A DISLOCATED SHOULDER ANYWAY.” or “I deserve to be healthy and safe. I deserve to be healthy and safe. I deserve to be healthy and safe.” Whatever that nasty voice is saying, start arguing with it. You’re smart; these cruel voices are usually pretty stupid and their logic is full of holes.

      Step three: do something nice for yourself. Take care of yourself.
      * Take a nap.
      * Eat a healthy meal that tastes good to you.
      * Eat an unhealthy meal that tastes good to you.
      * Candles and bubble baths and face masks and bonbons. There’s a reason they’re classics.
      * Take your meds, if you need some. Take your vitamins, if that’s a thing you do.
      * Drink some water.
      * Stretch.
      * Look out a window for a few minutes and observe a tree.
      * Look at pictures of babies and puppies or interstellar phenomena. Whatever gives you a feelgood chemical bump in your brain.
      * Seriously, whatever works for you. Do the nice thing for Annie Edison because Annie Edison is an adult who is responsible for taking care of Annie Edison. No one is going to come in and do nice things for you because you’ve finally suffered enough to be deserving. It’s YOUR job to treat yourself and your body with kindness and respect.

      Step four: do this over and over and over, for the rest of your life, trusting that it will get marginally easier each time. There’s not a switch where you can get from Mindset A to Mindset B quickly. It’s achievable, but you have to practice. Your belief that commitment is the highest of all virtues (and hey: commitment is a great thing) will serve you here; you just need to commit to yourself first, everything else second.

      Oh and PS because I always forget this because I’m bad at it: ask for help? Talk to your boss, if appropriate, once you identify some things that they can do that might help. Ask a friend to be your text buddy who will give you a ‘permission slip’ to call in, even if it’s a ‘joke’. It’s okay to ask for what you need.

    3. Rey*

      Annie: you have got to be more kind to yourself in this area. You are not expected to feel guilty for calling in within the sick policy, and you definitely shouldn’t have nightmares or put off going to the hospital for an injury. A quick google search shows that most Americans take about 5 sick days per year. So what if instead of framing it as, “I can never take a sick day” (which is what you parents told you relevant to school) you should instead think, “I don’t want to take more than 5 sick days per year”. I also want to point out that while parents feel a lot of pressure to get kids to school because students will miss a lesson that they can’t make up, and too many absences can affect graduation, there isn’t the same problem with adults missing work. You can and will get caught up with your work responsibilities when you return after a sick day because you’re a conscientious employee. There was a reason for your parents’ mindset during school, but it doesn’t apply now that you are working full-time.

      1. Annie Edison*

        I really like this framework, I’m going to try adapting it.

        Sadly, my parents do have the same attitude with work. My mom likes to boast about how she never took any time off after having her youngest child (and never took mat leave either). They live near the hospital and came to pick me up and I was congratulated on doing the “right thing” . This is a major source of pride (and consequently disappointment) to them which is probably why it’s screwing me up so bad.

        But you’re right, nothing bad will happen if I miss a days work. There is always someone to cover me if it’s really needed. I just have to keep reminding myself of that.

        1. Rey*

          Oof, that definitely sounds like a lot of pressure from them. Also know that you don’t have to tell them when you are staying home sick. Obviously, that won’t be possible if they are helping pick you up, or that kind of thing, but do what you can to just give them less information about your life, especially if you know that they will spin it to be disappointed at you in harmful ways.

          1. The Ginger Ginger*

            Yes, this. Do not share your PTO use with your parents. They’re just…untrustworthy narrators in this area. Trust your manager to tell you if something is amiss. You can talk about it in your one on ones and performance reviews.

        2. The Ginger Ginger*

          I really, REALLY want to encourage you not to model your behavior on your parents in this area. It is a really skewed and unhealthy attitude. Decent employers do not expect this of you, and what’s more, they don’t reward you for using less PTO. As long as you’re using it according to policy there is just no reason not to use it, and every reason to use it as needed. There’s absolutely no reason to be so loyal to any normal company or normal job that you’d do yourself possibly permanent injury.

          Don’t hurt yourself, don’t spread germs at work, don’t burn yourself out.

    4. fposte*

      So a few questions for you to consider. What do you think will happen if you call in? Will that make you a slacker, or will your parents be disappointed? Would you look with less satisfaction at a year with three absences than a year with none? Do you feel generally confident in your contribution and value at work, or is showing up especially important to prove your commitment in ways that achievement doesn’t get you? Do your friends ever take off from work? What do you think of them for doing so, is it different for them than for you, and if so, why?

      I’ve covered a lot of ground in there in the hope that something sticks, but I think what’s likely to pry you loose from this a little is figuring out what kind of reward and punishment are operating in your head on this and how you can reframe that. And I think you’re really smart to think about this now before you run into a more serious health problem.

      1. Annie Edison*

        Yes to all those points except the ones regarding the friends. I do admit I find myself judging people harder than I should for taking time off.

        I’m totally afraid of being labeled as a slacker, of disappointing my family (who are already disappointed, but that’s another story haha). I feel confident in my work, but I get a lot of pride from being someone who’s always available to do their bit (this counts outside of work too).

        1. Free Meerkats*

          This comment cemented what I was thinking for part of the problem. You are too close to your parents. Both mentally and physically. How often do you see your parents each week? Cut that at least in half.

          My advice (without the “You’re a frelling adult, act like it!” vibe), move on. Move on mentally, and to help that effort, physically. If you live in the Midwest, move to a coast; If you live on a coast, move to the other one. Basically, move as far away as you can. Heck, if you can find a job that pays well enough, move to Hawaii. It’s amazing how freeing distance can be. They’ll get over it, or not. And if not, that tells you everything you need to know.

    5. Ivanova is God*

      YES I am like this, though I have gotten much better at it. For me, it helps to have a third party (in this case, my husband) give me “permission” to call in. It might sound weird, but it works for me – your mileage may vary! Having someone else be the “decision maker” who gives you their blessing to do The Thing (call in sick) seems to alleviate a lot of the angst and guilt for me. If you don’t live with someone who can do this for you, maybe enlist a friend or someone else you’re close enough with to contact early in the morning.

      1. Annie Edison*

        This is so true! I actually have a lot of anxiety and find asking “permission” relieves it much of the time. The problem is that it tends to drag people into my issues more than they would like.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      Consider your situation as if it were a colleague, maybe even a specific colleague your friendly with. If your colleague confessed to you one morning at work that they were ill, or were working through a dislocated shoulder, what would you tell them? I assume, like most of us, you’d tell them to go home! Or go to the ER! If that’s your response for a colleague, do yourself the kindness of giving yourself the same permission. You have PTO as a benefit to you but ALSO to make sure other employees aren’t exposed to you germs. You’re not the only one who benefits by your not working when you’re ill.

      I also agree with an earlier commenter. You may find some value in discussing this with a therapist, as it sounds extreme, and you’re already seeing it negatively impact your life and health.

      Good luck!

    7. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m not as bad, but I do have issues with coming back to work after I’ve been off sick. I’ll try to go back when I’m mostly better instead of completely better. Going home early is a similar issue if I’ve “just” got a headache, or joint pain acting up.

      If I have an injury in the morning that’s going to make driving difficult, I will generally call in sick. That’s easier for me, because it’s a clearer situation with obvious safety implications. But the day my knee started acting up in the afternoon, I stuck it out until after a scheduled conference call (even though a senior co-worker told me I should just go home and he’d fill me in the next day).

      There are a few other places I’ve identified as “Just stay home, don’t think about it” – fever and anything involving bodily fluids. Tired and congested are harder for me to figure out on my own.

      And like Ivanova, it’s easier if someone else says “You should stay at home”.

    8. KR*

      I have similar issues. It might help to remember that your sick time is compensation that you earn just like vacation days and your paycheck. You are just using part of your compensation. Also remember your boss wants you to be happy and healthy and well rested. Good luck !!

    9. Luisa*

      Oh yes. For me, it’s largely because of my job; I’m a classroom teacher and so any absence is a PITA, but unplanned absences (ex. for illness) are even worse because I can’t plan as well for them, due to their very unexpected nature. I finally came to this realization last year, when I went home sick one day after barely holding it together physically and emotionally until lunch, that even though my students don’t get their best learning done with a substitute, they also don’t get their best learning done when their teacher is using 98% of her energy to not collapse on the floor. So basically, the kids get the short end of the stick either way, but if I stay home and rest, I can avoid spreading germs and hopefully speed my recovery. I still have a really high bar for calling in sick, but now that bar actually exists.

  161. Should I apply?*

    I am thinking about applying for an internal position, but it is an a completely different division in a different country. The job description sounds really good (plus promotion), but I don’t have any way to get an idea of what the role would be like and what type of manager / co-workers to expect. This makes me nervous that if I apply and get the job but then find out something negative it will make it difficult to turn down since it is internal. The fact that it involves a significant relocation is just adding stress to the situation. Any advice on how to either reduce the risk / or navigate turning down an internal position that you applied to?

    1. KatieKate*

      Do you trust the manager of that position to go over and have a “hypothetical” conversation with them? I’ve done that a few times with people I trusted to know how sticky internal transfers can be.

  162. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Recently corporate overlord told us another group is being moved into our area. Facilities can’t tell us when we’re moving or where we’re moving or even what part of the building we’re moving into. Our jobs aren’t going away — just our spaces. And maybe our desks if we’re moved into a space with built-ins. So I’m spending Friday afternoon packing up some personal belongings to take home in case the powers that be decide to move us while I’m on end-of-year vacation.

    And I’m dithering about one item — a crystal service award left behind by a work friend who got a better job. I’d remarked that the box would be a great jewelry box, and she gave me the box with the award in it. Ironically it was a “team spirit” award, and almost all the people listed on it have jumped ship.

    Should I just sneak over and put the award in her empty desk? Give it to someone else who’s name is on there?
    Drop it off at a charity shop for someone to re-etch?

    1. Rey*

      I hate tchotkes, and stuff like this can float around the same office for seemingly decades because no one is ever willing to throw stuff away. So that’s my vote–throw it away at home, don’t tell anyone that you’ve done it, and don’t give it a second thought.

  163. Anonymous, obviously*

    I decided for my own peace of mind that I wanted to draft a SWOT list [strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats] for my projects and decided to go back to the previous one to use as a starting point.

    It’s FIVE YEARS old. But I did find several emails where I asked – and pleaded with – my bosses to sit down with me and talk through updates as our market situation has changed.

    No wonder I feel directionless sometimes. I noticed, with no small amount of bitterness, that things we mentioned as weaknesses and threats five years ago have absolutely turned out to be accurate, and several of the strengths and opportunities are no longer accurate or even relevant.

    I wonder if “toxic management that spends more time in-fighting than leading the company” is something I want to put into writing…

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’m actually in the process of doing that for my own project. The history of this project goes back to at least 2001 and probably earlier. I’ve worked on two different incarnations of it myself, and now it’s more or less all mine because I’m almost the last person left at the company with specific knowledge of this project.

      In my case, company and management aren’t toxic, this is just one of those “but it sounds good!” projects that for many reasons is just not realistic but never dies. The thing that keeps me going is that this is sort of an umbrella project that is leading to good and useful offshoot projects; it’s just really unlikely to lead to the Ultimate Goal.

  164. DarlaMushrooms*

    I have a really bad cold and two interviews this coming week. Should I warn my interviewers beforehand, or say anything at all about it? Will I look bad if I show up sick? I really need a job, and soon. FWIW I’m in a huge city and germs abound.

    1. Mouse in the House*

      I would decline to shake their hand and explain that you’re sick and don’t want to get them sick. I think that’s about all you need to do.

      If you want to, you could mention it beforehand and ask if it’s okay? Something like, “I’m looking forward to meeting with you this week! I wanted to let you know that I have a bad cold but am still set to come in. Is that okay? I only mention it in case there is someone at your office who is immuno-compromised and therefore this would need to be taken into consideration.” (That’s a bit too long and wordy, but you get the idea.)

    2. Colette*

      If you’re really sick, ask to reschedule – yes, it will look bad to show up. But since it’s next week, you will hopefully be on the road to recovery.

  165. ReadyToGo*

    I’ve been at my current job for 2 years. My boss, while well known in her field and good at having big and creative ideas, is terrible at execution, using office technology (we’re a digital company and she can’t even send a basic Outlook invitation), and general project and people management. She’s very difficult to work with: stubborn, resistant to ideas from others, passive aggressive, condescending, unorganized, and unaccountable for how her quality of work affects others.

    As such, I’ve spent the last 6 months mostly miserable and often crying in the bathroom trying not to have an anxiety attack. It’s been increasingly stressful as I try to meet the ever-changing standards of our senior leadership while keeping my boss from ruining things.

    The great news is that I have a job offer at a great company. The downside is that I have to wait at least 2 months for my security clearance to process since the company consults with the government.

    How do I stay sane while I wait for my clearance to process and I put in my 2 weeks notice?

    1. Congrats!*

      Know that there is an end in sight and that you have a new offer waiting. Would it be at all possible to quit sooner than when the security clearance comes through (assuming you are 100% positive nothing will prevent the clearance from coming through)? You could use that time to freelance or relax, etc.

      1. ReadyToGo*

        I could but there are some company benefits that come with waiting it out a little longer (e.g., paid vacation days, leftover PTO being paid out when I do quit, profit sharing, etc.). But if I get to the point where I can’t stand it any longer, I’m considering freelancing.

        Thanks for the advice!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Keep reminding yourself that you have an end point coming – the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Do the bare minimum of effort required to be sufficient at your current job. You no longer need to be a rock star there, you just need to be sufficient. Practice the “not my circus, not my monkeys” mantra. And really, really try to stop caring. Document all your stuff, escalate what needs to be escalated, and the rest…is just not your problem. Don’t work more hours or commit to more projects than is absolutely necessary.

      Congrats on the new job!

    3. Delta Delta*

      Oh my goodness. You sound like an employee in an organization I am very familiar with, and which has management issues very similar to what you describe.

      I think the fact you have a light at the end of the tunnel is what can and should keep you sane and focused. Take care of yourself. Other commenters have mentioned pretending you’re an anthropologist and observing from the outside. That may be helpful, too.

      1. ReadyToGo*

        The concept of being an observer instead of getting entangled in the workplace stress is kind of a game changer. It’ll take a little work for me as I tend to really dedicate myself to my work and being a good coworker, but as others have mentioned, I have a light at the end of the tunnel. Good enough is good enough.

  166. Imaginary Number*

    I am trying very hard to be patient with my coworker but he’s driving me up a wall. This is more a rant rather than a request for advice, but it’s always appreciated nevertheless.

    My coworker, Bran, is at the same level as me. We work on a team that is a mix of people more and less experienced than either of us, but leans towards less. That being said, Bran is being far outpaced by the early-career folks on our team and needs a lot of hand-holding. He’s fairly competent when he’s doing something familiar, but drowning when he’s not. Our team lead is basically wearing two hats, so that hand-holding often falls to me, largely due to physical proximity and relevance of my areas of expertise.

    We spent the last month in crunch time working 60-70 hour weeks, which tends to amplify things like this. What kept happening is that Bran would a) wait for someone to explicitly tell him how to solve something before going after it himself and b) focus on extremely unnecessary details if he didn’t have said explicit direction. Adding to that was the fact that he tended to only to ask his question in an extremely vague way and then give up when he didn’t get an answer. His question would be something like: ‘What are we supposed to be doing with the blue teapot handles?’ when half the project relates to blue teapot handles. And when anyone asked him for specificity he ended up mumbling something like ‘nevermind, I think I figured it out’ then go work on making sure the teapot handle was the exact right shade of blue instead of actually figuring out how to make it not break, which was the problem he really needed to solve.

    This really became a problem the day of a major presentation when my manager and I noticed that one of his numbers seemed extremely off and needed to be recalculated. We asked him to recalculate it really quick, providing him with the exact method he needed, and then bring the new number to us to put in the slides. Well, it was getting close to go time and he was nowhere to be seen. Come to find out that he’s spent the whole time trying to completely reformat his slide (formatting which wasn’t necessary and couldn’t be transferred to the presentation anyway) to go better with the new number. His excuse was that ‘It didn’t make sense in his head unless he changed the slide.’

    It seems to me he’s obviously terrified of getting out of his comfort zone, which is why he defaults to working out details he already knows how to do instead of solving large-scale problems he doesn’t. I’m trying to develop techniques to work with/lead this type of personality but found that really hard to do when I was sleep-deprived and desperately trying to finish my own responsibilities. I was a bit snappy at him a few times when he interrupted me with vague questions, and that probably didn’t help with his tendency of brushing it off and pretending like he never had a question in the first place.

    1. Colette*

      Like you said, it sounds like he’s afraid of making mistakes, so he’s doing stuff he feels like he has a handle on. The solution is:
      – make it clear that not tacking the scary stuff is a mistake, and
      – make it equally clear that it’s OK to ask for help as long as you’re working on the scary stuff

      In the short term, he may need help figuring out how to do stuff – which means answering “nevermind, I think I figured it out” with “OK, what did you figure out? What are your next steps?”

      But you’re not his supervisor, so I’m not sure this is something you can affect.

      1. valentine*

        Ask your supervisor how much time you’re meant to spend on trying to get Bran to baseline, as it’ll displace other tasks. Tell Bran to be specific when asking for help. Maybe he thinks he is and that your reply is a no. What consequences are there for him not doing what he’s meant to do? If none, he’s no reason to change.

  167. anon for this*

    I work with a client that has a lot of problems. I need to communicate many of these problems to my team, but I don’t want to do it in a way that comes off as badmouthing the client. How do I balance this?

    More details: I’m the lead of the project for a particular external client. This client’s processes are a mess. Their product is a mess. And much of the mess also affects us in ways that I need to communicate with our team. For example, for months they’ve been promising to have a particular project for us “tomorrow” every time we meet. The project still hasn’t materialized. I need to let our team know what’s coming up, but at this point we can’t trust the client’s word about it.

    I also don’t want the junior members of my team to have their standards for what’s acceptable in a product warped by working with this particular client’s unusually low standards, so I’d like to point it out to them when this client does things that go against best practices.

    But, I’ll admit it… this client does so many things wrong that it’s easy for me to slide into exasperation or mockery when talking about them. And I think this tendency is rubbing off on my team – they’re also pretty dismissive of the client sometimes (in internal communication, not when talking to the client).

    However! This client is very friendly, are effusive with their praise of our work, and have recommended other clients to us. I would hate to think how they would feel if they realized how I’ve been talking about them. And honestly, I really enjoy working with them, even if it’s partially because all the problems with their product keep my job interesting!

    So when I have to communicate with my team about this client, how do I keep my communication objective and professional and not sound like I’m putting the client down?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Just state the facts. Don’t slide into feelings or exaggeration or colorful language, but do put the facts out there. As nice as this client is, they’re disorganized and late with deliverables. They don’t follow best practices. You don’t have to turn that into a snarkfest or anything internally, but it is information everyone needs to know. It’s not a judgement on the people you work with that you enjoy, necessarily, but it is reality. The way you laid it out here is fine. And honestly, if it’s that bad, the client probably knows it’s a hot mess.

      1. anon for this*

        Yeah, you’re right, thanks. I just need to figure out how to resist the urge to be snarky.

        Though at this point even stating some of the problems neutrally has become a running joke among some of my colleagues. There’s only so many times I can say, “The client promised us Deliverable X by tomorrow,” followed by, “The client didn’t get X to us,” before it becomes a farce.

  168. MissMia*

    I’m desperately trying to get out of retail and find something full time. I’m trying to find something that I can sit down at a desk and do, maybe not 100% of the time but most. And preferably days since my sleep cycle is so messed up from working anytime between 5:30 in the morning to 11 pm, my mental illness is becoming uncontrollable and there are no providers in the area that can take me. I also need a steady paycheck. I did have an interview at my current store for a full time position but it’s a step down from my part time supervising position, a definite pay cut, and my ASM doesn’t seem to understand why I’d want to step down.

    Since going back on my meds in October I’ve been a mess and have made too many mistakes to feel comfortable continuing my supervisory duties (The mistakes are directly related to supervising duties – break coverage, signing off on things support managers tell me they’ve taken care of but didn’t, etc). I’m also on physical restriction so I can’t actually do a few of my duties because they require ladder use. My direct supervisor says she only hears great things and gets that it’s a trying time for me, and she’s willing to support me. My ASM makes me feel like I shouldn’t be doing this job anymore – but doesn’t get why I’d want to go to another position. I also have a TBI that make it hard to learn and remember things so when they come at me for something that happened two weeks ago, I have no idea. The LP has started showing me the camera footage as a training tool and its helping. The whole thing is frustrating.

    I still do clerical/administrative and information organization for my friends that are small business owner/artists/writers. Occasionally I filed paperwork for business formation for pizza/beer. It’s kind of a walk in and see their mess and clean it up sort of thing. I did professionally work in clerical/administrative for over 6 years before my mental health got so bad I had to go on disability for a year. I can still do this because most of it I learned before the TBI, and I retained all that skill. I went to a staffing firm who said my skills are impressive and that I should have no problem finding a job. I get interviews just no offers.

    So if you’re still reading I guess my questions are: how do I get back into these positions when I’ve been doing retail supervising/manufacturing QA/working with the disabled for the last four years? Is it even possible?

    1. Colette*

      There are two things I see here.

      1) Interviews but no offers – how many interviews? If it’s 2, that might just be how it worked out; if it’s 20, it’s time to take a look at your interview skills. Have you read Alison’s interview guide? Do you have a friend who hires who could do a practice interview with you? Are there questions you feel like you could be answering better?

      2) How’s your network? When you’re changing from a field you’re in now to a field you used to work in, it’s a lot easier if you have people who want to help you. Can you start getting in touch with former colleagues (1 a week, or whatever makes sense to you)?

      3) No, I can’t count. Have you explained to your ASM that you want more predictable hours for health reasons? Because that’s a completely legitimate reason to want to change jobs.

      1. MissMia*

        1. It’s been more than 2 but less than 20… probably somewhere around 10? I know some of them just went badly, kind of a walk in and meet the interviewer and immediately feel like I’m not what they are looking for. And the others, I understand there are probably more qualified workers. Unfortunately, most of my friends are also in retail/food service and they don’t hire, so I’m not sure if they could help, but some could help mock interview me. I definitely feel like I need some coaching on answering some questions. Or a way to handle when my memory goes blank for a second or two.

        2. I don’t really have a network. I can get in touch with a former coworker that I shared a position with. But she’s working in an entirely different field now. My department experienced a 100% turnover shortly after I left and our department head (That refused to grant me leave when HR okayed it) was demoted. I did help the President of the community college where I had worked all those years a month or so ago. She expressed hope that I found something better. She always said she’d give me a reference if I wanted one, I wonder if I should possibly inquire. I don’t know if she was just being kind, but she was always impressed with my work.

        3. I think my ASM thinks my medical is just a bunch of excuses. Only full timers are supposed to have all availability and I’m PT but since I supervise I’m not allowed to restrict my time… but the other part timer in my position can only work nights and won’t work Sundays. Which has me confused. The position I was interviewed for in store is open – close availability but also has the ability to come in right as we open (6 am) and there can be an option to leave right at close (9 pm at the latest)

        1. Colette*

          1. Definitely get someone to role play an interview with you before your next interview. It’ll help you get your thoughts together, and give you confidence. (Choose someone who will coach you and help you get better, not someone who will belittle or mock you).

          2. That coworker who went into a different field is part of your network. So is the president. It’s not about whether they will hire you directly; it’s about whether they will recommend you to people they know who might hire you, and it’s also about the confidence boost you get when you talk to someone who knows you do good work. The president in particular might have some good tips on transitioning to an office job. I strongly recommend you drop her an email, let her know how you’re doing, and ask if she’d be willing to give you her thoughts on the kinds of office jobs she thinks you’ll be good at.

          3. And with the ASM, if she doesn’t want to believe your medical issues are real, that’s a her problem, not a you problem. Try not to fall into the trap of justifying yourself – she doesn’t get a vote.

          Good luck!

        2. Llellayena*

          Definitely do a mock interview with a friend. Write down some of the typical interview questions and formulate answers ahead of time. Bring notes to the interview. Reach out to the person who said they would give you a reference. Look at jobs with non-profits that work in disability-associated fields (they’re more likely to understand and accommodate short term memory issues in interviews). While your friends might not have businesses that could hire you, they may still have contacts that do (customers, family members, etc). If you are part of social groups, mention that you’re job hunting there (a more diverse field for networking). Basically, if you leverage everything, something should stick. Good luck!

  169. AnonAnonymouses*

    How To Demoralize Your White-Collar Office Workers In Winter, A Primer

    When your hourly employee asks you on Friday about pay for the 90 minutes the office was closed Monday due to the 2nd worst December snowstorm EVER, reply that hourly workers don’t get paid for the office opening late unless they worked from home.
    Except that for the past 3 years you’ve been telling said workers that work from home requires Special Permission.
    And said workers risked their safety in the roads to come in anyway, despite constant calls from local authorities to stay off the roads.

    (There is very little we haven’t been set up to do remotely, so the working from home was totally feasible. Except we’ve been told repeatedly DON’T DO IT.)

    If there’s any more snow in this area this winter that causes any delayed opening, some of us might start working from home first until the opening time, and beg forgiveness later. (Among other things that could happen.)

    /endrant

    1. Rebecca*

      And don’t tell them when they get to work on time, and they literally can’t get into the parking lot because it was not plowed and the entrance was plowed shut by the street plows that it’s OK, you won’t dock them the 15 minutes it took to find parking someplace else and trudge to the office. I know, 15 minutes is a minor cut in pay, but I wouldn’t have minded since I was late had you not said you’d fix it and not to worry about it.

  170. My Eyes!*

    This has been my first week at a new job. I was part of a group hire and one of about 75 or so employees going through orientation and training together. The job pays well and there are a lot of people there who have been there for many years which bodes well. Still, they are quite disorganized and there is a lot of “hurry up and wait.” The most surprising thing to me was…

    I’m a man and when I went to the men’s room during a break I found two of the other new hires in a “compromising situation” in one of the stalls. (Shades of the Duck Club.) I pretended that I didn’t notice or know what was going on, but it does bug me. I don’t think I’m a prude (O.K., I am), and I know stuff like this happens, but I never ran into it before. It just seems so tacky and unprofessional. I want to be a good ally. I’m not opposed to it, but not at work. I don’t want these people to get fired or disciplined, but I sure wish they hadn’t done it, and I hope they don’t do it in the future. I’m afraid that if I said anything to management the guilty parties would know that it was me, so I guess that I’ll just keep my mouth shut, but “ick!”

  171. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    There is a new sticky situation on the Hellmouth. Last night I got a text message from my manager at about 7:30 (after the working day was done) asking for a favor from me. She has decided that she wants to write up one of our leasing consultants, and wants me to compile a list of everything I have ever seen that could be a write up-able offense. She wants me to include stuff from over a month ago or more that the manager knew about but did not address at the time. The reason for this sudden mission is that the consultant put in a request for time off in our system a week ago, and when the request wasn’t denied she assumed she was good to go and did not come in for the two days she had requested off. My manager did not contact her on the days she was not in (although she did privately fume that not denying was not the same as approving) , and did not say anything to her about the time off when she returned to work yesterday. However, she is telling me that she is planning to write her up, possibly twice, today.
    I… seriously don’t want to be a part of this. I’m not saying that there are not issues to address with my coworker–but nothing has ever been addressed with her previously, period, and going straight to two write ups (the company has a 3 strikes policy) without ever even speaking to her about LITERALLY ANYTHING seems horrible. She asked me if I “thought [coworker] would bounce” afterwards, and it sounded like that’s what she’s hoping for. Any tips on how I can minimize being tied up in this?

    1. Rey*

      Can you keep it super casual and just say, “I can’t think of anything”. I mean, unless you have been writing down whats going on in the office, there’s no way your manager can prove that you know something and just won’t tell her about it? If you don’t want to be involved, this seems like the best way to get out of it.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        That was what I started with, but my manager pretty quickly moved into “What about X? What about Y? Go pull Y’s file and see if it jogs your memory.” She’s… pretty vengeful, and does not respond well to not getting what she wants, so I’ve just been stalling and when the consultant is not in the office I have been jumping on every phone call or walk in that I can to avoid getting cornered again.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Does she want the woman to quit?

      I was victim of someone steamrollering me with a write up that included settled things I had actually fixed (and never been chastised for…I just caught it myself and apologized for being slow because I was working 60hr weeks and running the place…lolwut.)

      I didn’t fight it. I signed the stupid thing and found a job within a month. She will quit and it’s property management, I can imagine she can find a new job easy enough unless she’s terrible at her job!!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It certainly seems like she wants her to quit, or set her up for a quick firing. I don’t doubt that my coworker can find something, I just hate it and feel super skeeved out by it. And to a lesser extent, totally dreading the resulting fall out for myself and the other leasing consultant.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Considering the turnover at your place of business, this doesn’t shock me. How gross, I don’t blame you for having the “DNW” flag flying.

          Honestly as HR, if some dimwit wanted to put in TWO! warnings at once and had a bunch of backed up complaints, I would look into terminating them. But I feel like you guys don’t have a decent HR who would go there. Curious just as an aside, do you prefer one of these people to the other? The complainer seems like she’s atrocious!!!

          1. I work on the Hellmouth*

            The complainer has lost it and seems to be spiraling. She filled me in on her current thoughts at the end of the work day, and they were not good. She apparently wants to replace the (seasoned, experienced) leasing consultant with some rando bubbly girl from a local fast food joint—she hasn’t spoken to the bubbly girl about the job, just decided that’s who she wants to hire if/when the leasing consultant quits. It’s crazy.

  172. WhoKnows*

    I saw this in a job description and don’t’ know what it means. Can anyone help me here?
    ” loosely coupled but highly-aligned “

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Hmm…has a few screws loose, but operates as programed…maybe?

        I’m going to guess that it means the position will be classified as a consultant or contract worker rather than full-time employee, but that they expect you to put their needs first and foremost at all times and not raise a fuss about low pay, no benefits, or possibly an illegal classification.

        1. WhoKnows*

          It’s not consultant or contract work, it’s actually a full time position within a well known media company lolol

          I think Colette is correct!
          “I’d assume it’s a poor way of saying “works independently and without supervision, but stays in sync with the team’s goals and practices”.”

    2. Colette*

      I’d assume it’s a poor way of saying “works independently and without supervision, but stays in sync with the team’s goals and practices”.

  173. Anonoob*

    I’m a little late to the open-thread-party, but maybe someone’s still up to help me out: I recently applied for a job that I didn’t even think I had a chance to get, but not only did I get it, I’m starting in two weeks. I’m transitioning from academia to a (completely unrelated in terms of content) corporate environment and I’m incredibly intimidated by this. Any advice for the cultural transition?

    1. H.C.*

      It really depends on the corporation and what your role/team is, but you’ll likely get some sort of on-boarding orientation – use that time to take notes & ask questions (esp any practices that deviates from what you’re used to in academia). Also, spend your first days/weeks observing the office culture so you get an idea of that workplace’s norms.

  174. The Doctor*

    Anybody else deal with an office “low talker”? One of my direct reports sits only 15 feet from my cube, yet she REFUSES to speak loud enough for me to hear her. Meanwhile, I clearly hear people who sit farther away. I’ve tried telling her that I can’t hear. I’ve tried ignoring her until she speaks louder. Nothing works.

    2. utoh!*

      Can she use chat or email? I work w/a low talker too, who stands at my cubicle until I notice them…I know it’s just the way they are so I work around them…

  175. it's me*

    My boss happens to be a fan of a band I’m a megafan of. I’m seeing them next week. Is it not appropriate to bring my boss a merch item (perhaps even signed) as a holiday present…? I’ve left him a sticker of theirs (that I got for free) before….

    1. Guy Incognito*

      Depends how big.
      “Hey, here’s another sticker and I got them to sign it” – probably not bad. Probably not bad with something small like a shirt or something.

      “Hey here’s the lead’s guitar I stole off stage” – probably not.

      1. it's me*

        Ha ha.
        Yeah, something like another sticker might be good.
        I should add, this is not a bigtime band, just a regionally semi-famous one.

    2. Colette*

      I probably wouldn’t. Assuming you’ll be seeing them close to where you work, your boss could presumably go too if she wanted. And honestly, concert merchandise is expensive and not really something I’d want to receive from someone else – it’s value to me is the memory. Maybe your boss sees it differently, but generally gifts for boss aren’t a good idea, and I don’t see this as a good enough reason to change that.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Freebie stuff is fine, or maybe something like a small poster (i’ve got them free with CDs before), but I’d leave off buying shirts or hats or stuff like that, they’re expensive and may make your boss a bit uncomfortable.

      1. it's me*

        I’ll try for something minor or freebie. If nothing applies, then I won’t stress. I already gave him the sticker, and he knew about the show.

  176. LALAs*

    The Executive Director’s assistant has been out for a week + because her father got sick and passed suddenly. She is a young woman and I can only imagine how much of a shock it was for her. She hasn’t been here long and I don’t know her except to say hi and hold the door for her.

    Do I leave a sympathy card on her desk?

    2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      When I unexpectedly lost my dad, I was very appreciative of the kindness of others, including people I didn’t know so well. A sympathy card is a very nice gesture. If you are worried about it being awkward, maybe see if anyone else wants to sign it with you? But I think it’s okay if it is just from you.

  177. Boop*

    This is going to make me sound awful. I have a coworker who was hired around the same time as me. We had a mutual friend at the company, so we ended up all having lunch together every day in the lunch room. Things got shifted around, the mutual friend doesn’t eat lunch with us anymore. It’s just me & coworker a lot of the time, though sometimes there are others that I enjoy socializing with. Here’s the thing–I don’t love coworker. They are boring. So, so boring. They also talk about embarrassing things that others overhear while also in the lunchroom. Nothing terrible, nothing concerning or alarming but still conversations I don’t really want to be having. What’s worse is that people are starting to associate me with this person, which I guess is kind of a separate matter, because this person is lazy in their work, slow, and content to stay in a low-level role forever. I’m highly motivated, get my work done in an efficient way, and am looking to move up in my company.

    I know this all sounds rude, but how do I start separating myself from this person? I guess the answer is to eat at my desk, but I like the time away from my desk and enjoy socializing with other coworkers when the opportunity presents itself. I don’t want to be rude, as this person is very nice, I just…can’t stand these boring/weird conversations anymore and I don’t want to become professionally associated with a lazy coworker.

    1. Colette*

      Can you invite more people and make it a group thing?
      Alternatively, I’d start making deliberate plans to get together with other people, and just let her know you can’t make it that day (until you reach the point where you’re only there a day a week or so).

    2. Delta Delta*

      You’ve got timing on your side! You can make a New Year’s resolution to get to know more people in your work place or to eat lunch with someone different every day so you can develop relationships or something like that. Then stick to it, and make sure you’re always eating with someone different every day or taking a power walk at lunch with the power walkers (there probably will be some resolutions with new fitbits or whatever). And it’s all without saying “I’m ditching you because you’re boring.”

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      Usually a good thing, especially from Brits, as I’ve heard it. In my family we’d say you’re a trooper. You do what needs to be done and you don’t complain.

  179. Alaska Roll*

    My company has an awesome parental leave policy (by US standards), and I am hoping to use it in the next year or two. But the wording is confusing me.

    It allows the “primary caregiver” to take twelve weeks fully paid, and the “secondary caregiver” to take theee weeks fully paid. Based on what I have seen coworkers do, in the case where the mom works at our company, she takes 12 weeks paid. If the dad works here he takes the three weeks paid. So I assume the intended interpretation is “primary caregiver” = mom, particularly since you would typically be on short term disability leave for at least a few weeks following the birth.

    Here’s my confusion. If my husband is a stay at home dad, can I (mom) take the full 12 weeks paid as “primary” caregiver immediately after the birth? It seems a bit inaccurate or “convenient” to say I am the primary caregiver for just these 12 weeks then my husband resumes that role, but it also seems like the intent of the policy is to pay women for the full 12 weeks of FMLA leave they are eligible for after having a baby.

    Obviously only my HR can answer that question, but should I even ask it? Or just say I am the primary caregiver if and when the time comes to use my leave and not bring it up?

    1. Lady Kelvin*

      I would say, yes. I’m about to go on maternity leave and my doctor said that it’ll take at least 6 weeks to recover from giving birth fully (and more if you have a c-section) let alone the fact that since (assuming your breastfeeding) you are going to be on the hook for feeds every couple of hours, in that time, you will be primary caregiver. Most places don’t recommend introducing bottles until at least 4 weeks, preferably as late as possible to ensure a good latch. Even if you don’t breastfeed your office doesn’t need to know that. I’m assuming that they use primary/secondary caregiver to account for the fact that in gay/lesbian relationships there won’t be a mom and dad, and for some there will be one who gave birth and one who didn’t. The one who gave birth would be the primary caregiver.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Don’t ask HR, just take the 12 weeks. There’s no case in which them elucidating can help you. Who’s going to challenge you otherwise? If they do, make up a plausible reason why hubby isn’t a primary caregiver for those 12 weeks.

  180. Junior Dev*

    I remember people mentioning here a brand of pants that looks like work-appropriate slacks but are very comfortable/feel like yoga pants. Does anyone remember the brand name?

    Also if any plus size women have solved the problem of finding jeans that have appropriate coverage in the back and don’t constrict your abdomen it would make dressing for work much easier…

      1. MissDisplaced*

        + on the Betabrand. They’re called Dress Yoga Pants. Kind of expensive, but if you signup they have good sales. I love them, but alas they don’t come in plus sizes and found they run small.

    2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      I hate pants so much. Pants that fit right are hard for most women, I think, plus sized or not.

      I’ve had some success buying men’s jeans–all you need is your leg length and waist size, and BOOM, you can magically locate jeans that fit and look nice. You can also find jeans/pants that fit correctly in whatever your hard to fit area is and take them to a tailor to alter to fit you perfectly in the too big areas (for me it was finding something that fit in the thighs and butt, and then I had the waist taken in).

      Also, I know that it definitely isn’t an option that everyone would want to explore, but I actually started taking sewing lessons about a year and a half ago so I could just make stuff that would specifically fit me. It’s been awesome and I’ve been slowly building up a wardrobe of office appropriate clothes that fit me well, are cute, and are comfy. Fun fact–there are actually some great jeans patterns out there and some good pants patterns for ponte/double knits that look like they would be work appropriate and would definitely feel like yoga pants.

      1. Triplestep*

        I have actually considered the sewing lessons as I am so hard to fit! How did you find your lessons?

        I don’t think men’s jeans would fit me; my leg length and waist size are not the problem, and neither are my hips — it’s my thighs. Waist is pretty small, but only mom jeans fit my thighs :-(

        1. I work on the Hellmouth*

          Do iiiiit! It’s super fun and rewarding!

          I checked with local craft stores, checked into leisure classes at the local university and main library branch, and got pointed towards a teacher who focuses on garment construction by a crafty friend. There are also some GREAT online classes available (Tilly and the Buttons has some really good beginner classes and also books that are basically intro classes to wardrobe sewing for beginners, and Bluprint has some neat stuff, too). Depending on your learning style, there are a lot of options out there that weren’t around even 5 years ago.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I’ve made some of my own office-appropriate clothes too! Mostly, though, I prefer to take store-bought jeans and add yoga-style waistbands to them. It’s less work than constructing from scratch IME, because I’m very slow, although the overall fit should be good enough to make it worth your while. Then you get pull-on pants with a comfy flat waistband that are still a style you like.

        The basics are: detaching the original waistband and belt loops, removing the zip and stitching the fly closed, and adding a jersey/ponte/stretchy material with flat elastic sewn in at the top. There are multiple online tutorials on “adding yoga waistbands”. It’s my favorite sewing hack!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since you said jeans constrict your abdomen, does that mean you’re apple-shaped? I am, and I’ve found Torrid makes the best jeans to fit my body. And some are available in mid-rise or high-rise.

    4. Gumby*

      Jeans are just a big old trial and error thing. The brand I have defaulted to is the Gloria Vanderbilt Amanda jeans that I get at Kohl’s. But I am far from fashionable and I get them because they fit not because they look particularly amazing or anything. (Also I refuse to pay $100 for jeans like my sister does because she is a crazy person.) (Not really, just crazy in the way family calls family crazy.)

      The GV Amanda ponte pants (which I also get from Kohl’s) are of the ‘comfy as yoga pants, look professional enough for Gumby’ type. Though Betabrand is the most well-known example of the genre.

    5. periwinkle*

      Jeans are weird. You just need to try them on until you find what fits right, and then buy lots of them! I’m an apple-shaped plus size and swear by Talbots straight leg jeans and their Hampshire pants. Every pair of pants and jeans in my closet are Talbots except one.

  181. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

    How do you know where to draw the line between team player and chump?

    Let’s say I’m a llama groomer, and just yesterday my boss told me I needed to fill in for one of the llama herders for an hour yesterday. I did, I wasn’t happy about it, and ended up staying late last night and have a ton of grooming to catch up on today. Today, one of the llama herders told me that one of the other llama herders wasn’t coming in. I told her I couldn’t cover, and she would need to stay late- I already knew I would be doing overtime today, not counting the work from yesterday that didn’t get done. (And to be honest, if it came from my boss it would be one thing, but it didn’t.) Now that llama herder has left. There are no llama herders here, and I really don’t feel like I should have to cover. But there is my internal nice person saying I should cover versus my internal grumpy person that is pissed that the llama herder left and feels that everyone here can go jump in a lake. It’s been a not great week.

    1. Peaches*

      I think this is one of those “not my problem” things. Unless you were explicitly told by your boss that this coverage was your responsibility, I wouldn’t bother staying around to cover. If you’re confronted on Monday about it, I would just tell your boss that you had told llama herder 1 that you were unable to cover for llama herder 2 in her absence. Also, is it time sensitive work that has to get done today? Can’t llama herder 2 just catch up on her OWN work when she returns?

      1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        As it turned out, yes, llama herder left, but what I would need to cover for her wasn’t even herding, but uh… llama foot cleaning (I don’t know that much about llama maintenance.) I’ve never been trained on llama foot cleaning, so now the llamas and I have to wait for a different herder to get here, so she can train me and the llamas can get their feet cleaned and go home.

        1. Delta Delta*

          Meanwhile, you’ve got grumpy llamas with dirty feet who want to go home.

          I think we might be on to a children’s book here.

            1. valentine*

              Start saying you can’t and stick to it. Then establish how often you’re okay with covering/forcing OT on yourself to catch up, and stick to that. Outside of that, you’ve already allocated the time. Why are you the only one to stay late and do everyone’s job? Why couldn’t the trainer just do the cleaning instead of training you? Why couldn’t your manager summon the herder who left? They need to find solutions that don’t involve you. Also, can you cover in exchange for not covering the rest of the week or having the day after next off, etc.?

  182. Nacho*

    Any tips for dealing with low-grade carpel tunnel? I can type briefly without any pain, but if I try to go for more than a few minutes at a time, it begins to really hurt.

    1. Reba*

      Unfortunately since it sounds like you need to type, you really need to rest. I feel your pain!

      RICE is the classic protocol — rest, ice, compression, and elevation. When I’ve had extremely painful tendonitis in the wrist, a rigid wrist guard really helped. I was able to type slowly before long, basically holding my hands in a natural curve as much as possible, and moving my forearm rather than stretching out my fingers. But total recovery required several days of as much rest as possible.

      Maybe an ergo keyboard and mouse are worth a try?

  183. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    This week has been murderous on my soul. I’m not even complaining but it’s one of those whirlwinds where I go from nothing to do, to everything to do. We had a resignation and filling jobs is like soul crushing to me I’ve learned. A landslide of resumes, we haven’t experienced the resume spam in other positions we’ve had prior to this! Very few of which are qualified and only 50% of which who were offered interviews even responded.

    It’s taught me how wonderful it is that I have a supportive team around me for the first time ever though. It’s not all on my plate and I’m learning to slow myself down to a point! So glad it’s Friday.

  184. Emily Starr*

    Possibly silly question – do I need to carry a purse when I go to interviews? I carry either a backpack or fabric satchel/tote in my daily life, but I’m worried about the perception people might have if I go to an interview with one of those bags. Should I suck it up and buy a purse so I don’t look too casual or will most people not care if I have a less formal/structured bag? (For context, I’m looking in higher ed and adjacent fields.)

    1. LizB*

      I can’t speak to whether people will care or not in your field*, but if you have a Goodwill/Savers/other thrift store nearby you should be able to get a decent basic purse for quite cheap.

      *In my laid-back field, the worst case scenario is that it may contribute to a general impression that a candidate is fresh out of school/not necessarily very experienced. It would never be the deciding factor in whether I hire one candidate over another.

      1. LizB*

        (I didn’t finish my first thought, oops:) It could be worth just having one purse around for unexpected formal events, future halloween costumes, etc. no matter whether you use it for interviews.

    2. Alianora*

      Definitely not a backpack. The fabric tote really depends, but I’m leaning towards no. The issue with both of these is that if you’re dressing formally for your interview, your bag shouldn’t be super casual. Doesn’t need to be expensive or trendy, but much like interview clothes, it shouldn’t call attention to itself.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Fabric tote isn’t going to cause too much of fussy attention but backpacks look so bad and I’m in a very casual field. That’s not saying that we don’t have people around here who use them, we have a lot of bike riders! But they don’t show up for an interview with them.

    4. Rey*

      If you have any girlfriends or sisters in the area, ask to borrow something for the interview so that you don’t have to worry about buying something.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      I think you could pick up an inexpensive, nondescript fake leather tote from a thrift or discount store. Use it just like your fabric tote and let the whole issue disappear from your mind. Or borrow, as Randy said. Borrowing is great.

  185. Rocky McRockface*

    Let’s say I’m a teapot consultant and recently became a certified teapot spout tester. My company has never offered spout testing to clients before so we are still figuring out how to charge for it. Normally my time is billed at an hourly rate, but we thought that for the spout tests it would make sense to charge a flat rate of $X per spout. In order for me to properly test the spouts, each one must have been brewing tea for at least 15 minutes prior to the test. For a recent series of tests, when I arrived on site the client had me wait for almost half an hour while he addressed another issue and they did not have any of their teapots ready. At one point their brewing system shut down during a test and I had to wait for them to brew a new batch and start the test over.

    We want to continue charging the flat rate, but is there a tactful way to bill clients at my normal hourly rate for any time that they waste due to system issues/lack of preparedness? How would we phrase that in a proposal?

  186. Jules the First*

    So tonight was the corporate Christmas party. I didn’t go, because my gf and I had theatre tickets that were like gold dust, but I also didn’t go last year (I volunteered to cover a deadline). The theatre tickets have been booked for months, but my boss told me off today for booking something on the night that would “obviously” be the party night and all but demanded that I put next year’s date in my diary now. Normally, I would suck it up and go, despite the fact that I find parties exhausting (introvert and high functioning autistic means that 1,000 colleagues in a dark room that’s not quite big enough is no fun at all) and I don’t celebrate Christmas, but the idea of going to this company’s party, well, ever is giving me serious anxiety. Not only is it over the top Christmassy (to the point that our usually understanding non-Christian staff have complained), it’s fancy dress. As in “come in a themed costume with the rest of your team”. As in the winners of last year’s “costume of the year” prize came as Santa, Mrs Claus, and all nine reindeer (front and back halves)…

    Am I being unreasonable to think that I’ve done my part if I go to the team Christmas lunch and stay until the bitter end of the global summer gathering every year? Do I *have* to go to the Christmas party next year? If I don’t, what do I say to my boss, if anything? (Also, this isn’t the kind of event you can pop into and disappear after an hour – the company busses everyone to and from the venue, so the shortest I could stay would be about four hours)

    1. Alianora*

      Based on what your boss said, you should go. I mean, sounds like it’s not explicitly mandatory since you were able to skip the last two, but it sounds like the expectation is for everyone to go. And some people who notice your absence (such as your boss) are likely to think that you’re “not a team player” or that you hate your coworkers.

      (I feel ya on the sensory issues that go with parties.)

    2. Maya Elena*

      Just say you will and don’t, or do but find a suitable event to preempt it closer to the date. (My mom gifted me these once in a lifetime tickets! Promised to help a friend move! Etc.) Many things change in a year. And it’s definitely better than stewing about it for a year, going, hating it, and feeling that much more anxious and resentful and miserable each day before and after.

    3. Lynne879*

      You’re not psychic, there’s no way for you to know what date would “obviously” be the holiday party. And who would even think about a holiday party at work in June??

      Your boss is being ridiculous IMO. Go to the theater with your girlfriend. If your boss continues to make you feel bad, keep saying the tickets were bought six months in advance & didn’t know that anyone should expect to think about a work party six months in advance.

    4. Colette*

      I think your boss is being unreasonable, and I also think you should go if you want a long term future at this company. Your boss has been pretty clear it’s expected and it’ll hurt your career if you don’t (if you’re planning to stay with this company).

    5. Darren*

      Usually my policy is to aim to make about half of these sorts of events.
      My company does:
      * Twice yearly Town Hall meetings where the CEO presents the vision of the company
      * Twice yearly Department All Hands where the Department head presents the vision for the department
      * Quarterly Team Dinners
      * Annual Weekend Trip
      * Holiday (Christmas) party

      So basically 10 events a year, as long as I make it to at least five of them I don’t feel concerned about missing the others (since it’s easy to point to the ones I did go to if someone questions whether I’m a team player, etc).

      If I were you I’d look for a similar list of things and since you don’t like the Christmas party consistently skip that (or only go every few years) but make sure you are visibly at other events. There are a number of excuses for skipping a Christmas party. Clash with a family event is usually my personal choice when I’m skipping that. Nobody usually presses too hard about that.

    6. Nacho*

      IMO, you’re not being unreasonable, but it’s not my opinion that matters, it’s your bosses. And if he thinks you’re being unreasonable, whether or not he’s right, that can hurt your carrier opportunities.

  187. Sled dog mama*

    Late on this so not expecting a lot of input.
    I found out this week that my boss from a previous employer has gone out on his own in a fairly niche part of the industry. It would be common for him to hire contractors for a day or a week here and there. I don’t have much experience with this area of the industry but I really would like to get more, and career wise I really need more and can’t get it in my current position. I really liked working for this boss and felt like we worked well together (I got transferred within the company, which became a nightmare and left for my current position, otherwise I would still have been working with him until he left).
    I’d like to reach out to him and let him know that I’m available for these short gigs. It is common to have a full time position and take small assignments or gigs with other companies in my industry.
    My question is how do I go about reaching out and what do I say? It seems strange to send a resume since a good chunk of my experience is under him but at the same time it would refresh his memory, I don’t expect him to remember details of what I did on project X six years ago.

  188. Jennifer85*

    Probably a bit late to the party..

    I’m wondering whether it’s worth pushing back on the following or if I should just leave it & trust they’ll work things out.

    I’m currently a ‘project lead’ but not a manager (dinstinct roles in my company, but where project lead is a subset of mgr). Saying that I do some of the stuff that would usually fall under the manager (eg weekly check-ins with each report) – I don’t have direct HR responsibility, but at the same time my mgr (who is my reports ‘official’ mgr) doesn’t have much day to day involvement. Ive been told that I’ll move into management when I’m ‘ready’ – which I think atm is mostly waiting on me feeling less stressed and just being a bit more used to the project management stuff. (This criticism is absolutely fair although the project is a particularly stressful one & the team underresourced, so I don’t think all the stress is related to my newness..).

    We’re being taken over and are moving to a grading system that has no position inbetween ‘individual contribitor’ and ‘manager’. In this, I’ve been mapped to an individual contributor, which I… get… but meh, it’s a bit rubbish. I’m doing 90% of the manager role, and tbh I’ve been managed by people at my company who definitely do less of the role than I’ve been doing.

    I have been assured they still see me progressing ‘soon’ but a) there’s obviously no real commitment there and b) there’s grade related bonuses as part of the takeover that I’ll miss out on, not to mention access to management resources.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds annoying, but it also sounds like you’ve been correctly classified in the new system. If you’re not doing the HR stuff, that’s a pretty significant part of the manager job.

      1. Jennifer85*

        My point is that I actually do do some of it, and in particular I do more than some of the other managers at my company. You’re right that I’m technically classified the right way but it also feels a bit like a de facto demotion because there’s no longer recognition in my title that I have the responsibility that I do.

    2. Darren*

      Personally in your shoes I’d take this opportunity to have a career discussion with your manager. Everyone should do this anyway, but a takeover like this provides a perfect opportunity, basically you want to discuss what you’d like from your career, what direction you want to see it take, and develop SMART goals and a roadmap with your manager on ways to get you from here to there.

      For example it sounds like you want to be a manager, so the discussion should indicate you want to get into management, you’ve already done these parts of it, what would they need to see from you in order to progress your career in that way, what can be done to give you the exposure you need, etc.

      One example would be does your company have interns/grad positions? One of my companies ways of building their managers is to use those as opportunities. We have a manager who is responsible for all of the interns and grads, but this person doesn’t handle the day-to-day or managing the project work instead a individual contributors on the team the grad/intern is made the day-to-day manager, and instead of “1 on 1” meetings they do “1 on 1 on 1” meetings where the grad/intern manager, the individual contributor and the intern/grad meet together to have those kinds of discussions then once that part is done the grad/intern manager and the individual contributor stay and have a chat allowing the more experienced manager to mentor and build the skills.

      Eventually they transition from there into actually having their own team and handling it directly, but a program like this offers a clear path (with the ability to demonstrate you can handle the management work) to transition from individual contributor to management and is the kind of thing you’d be looking for. It’s quite similar to what you’ve got now, but more involvement in the 1-1 sides.

      1. Jennifer85*

        Thanks for this. To clarify – I already handle 1-1s and the day to day work with my team, they have quarterly catch ups with their official manager (also my manager) but that’s it.

        My company explicitly told me (infact, they announced it to the whole company) that they were planning on making me and one other into project leads, with the expectation that we would progress into management within a year. This was last March-ish. As it happened due to project timing (crucially when the existing manager rolled off the project) although I took on some responsibilities at that point, I’ve only actually been doing the full project management for about 2 months.

        I will have a discussion about what I need to do for them to consider me ‘ready’, but from my POV this is just a bit galling because the fact I’m not a manager specifically at the time of the takeover means I’m missing out on a bunch of benefits. (Benefits that I won’t get even if I did get promoted in 3 months, say).

  189. AnonForToday*

    When is the line drawn at being valid in my annoyance that my co-workers are always late due to their kids, and at what point would I be too hard on them?

    For context, I’m one of 6 people in my department; myself & two others don’t have kids, the boss has two teenagers & the other two co-workers have young kids. The two co-workers with the young kids are almost always 10-15 minutes late every day & they both live fairly close to work (like a 10-15 minute drive at most).

    On one hand, I understand they have very young kids that they have to drive to school or drop them off at daycare, but on the other hand, this lateness happens ALL the time & they never stay late to make up for the lost time. It doesn’t make me angry, just a little annoyed. I have an hour commute, but I still plan my day accordingly to make sure I get up early enough to get to work on time. But then again, I know I ‘m only able to make this kind of commute because I don’t have kids.

    I guess I’m thinking about this because one day I would like to be a supervisor, but I wouldn’t know how to handle a situation like this.

    1. Ktelzbeth*

      I guess the first question for the late coworkers with young kids is whether there is a time before which they cannot deposit the kids wherever they will stay for the day, e.g. school/daycare/grandma’s house opens at 8:00 and not a moment before. If they get to work as fast as reasonably possible after 8, I think it’s best to be understanding even if they don’t make up the time unless it makes you do more work. I know it’s irritating–I’d probably be doing complex equations in my head to calculate how much more I was working over the course of a year–but I’m not sure it rises to doing something as a co-worker. As a supervisor, you could ask about the situation and decide from there. In either case, co-worker or supervisor, if they are causing you to have to do more work, then you can absolutely do something, even if it’s just asking your mutual supervisor, “How do you want me to do my work and Jane’s when she’s not in yet?”

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think there are a few things that you would be on the lookout for if you were in a supervisory role over people who are routinely late, regardless of the reason. I would try to mentally reframe it as a lateness-affects-business problem (assuming it does), not a people-with-kids problem, though.

      1) Are they impacting other people’s work? Showing up late to meetings? Is coverage an issue and are they blowing it off? If they’re making life hard for other employees or being unprofessional, that would be reasonable to address with them.

      2) Are they working a full 40 hr (or whatever your schedule is) week? Does all this time need to be done at the office, or are some people making up hours at home? Generally, if they are regularly putting in fewer hours than required, that needs to be addressed.

      3) Does the office culture have strict be-at-work hours? It is a thing at a lot of places and if it’s considered a requirement of remaining employed, then address it. Routine lateness would fall under unprofessional behavior for that type of job.

    3. She Who Must Not Be Named*

      Unless you are their manager, I don’t think it’s your job to be hard on them. If their lateness is affecting your work or team morale it’s certainly something you can mention to the supervisor.

      I do wonder if they have an informal arrangement with the supervisor already? I am a working parent and I do a lot of work at home. I would be really grumpy if someone complained about me not starting at 9am on the dot when I’m frequently up until midnight doing my job, and have never missed a deadline.

      I would be hesitant to make waves – whether with your coworkers or supervisor – if this is just about “fairness” and not about actual workload or quality of work.

    4. Anonomo*

      The line of annoyance as a coworker (my opinion) is when you have absolute concrete answers to the following-
      *You know the absolute start time and that they are not there at said start time.
      *The person surpasses this start time 60% of the time and is not reprimanded.
      *The person is not staying late.
      *The person is not working from home.
      *The person is not working through lunches.
      *The person is not being accommodated for outside conditions.
      Those can be really really hard to know *for sure* as a coworker, and if I cant answer them about my coworkers I automatically default to assuming theyve negotiated/been accommodated/already has permission and its being taken care of. And as a supervisor you would be able to answer those questions way easier and I think you could approach most situations with both compassion and firmness in future scenarios. For your specific situation I would like to offer the prospective that some coworkers are organizing a group outing every morning- think about how hard it can be to get 4/5 friends all together at the same time to go out. It doesnt mean they should get a pass to always be late, just a way to help be more “meh” while youre still a coworker.

    5. valentine*

      Is it hurting the business? It doesn’t sound like you need to cover for them or that their butts need to be in seats for clients or any other reason. Do you want to be 10-15 minutes late or to leave early to balance them out?

      It can take me a solid hour to leave home and I cannot imagine, even on my best day, also readying another person, much less the rest of the logistics required, so only 10-15 minutes consistently is a Christmas miracle.

  190. Singin in the Rain*

    I’ve got an office holiday party coming up and all new employees hired during the year have to participate in a talent show at the holiday party. I know some of you are already cringing, but I’m actually okay with this. I’m a classically trained singer, so I don’t mind performing. I’m pretty good at the singing bit – I sing with a well-respected chorus and opera company. Everyone at the company knows I sing and some even ask about my performances regularly. I also have an audition coming up in February and may perform a new song, so the holiday party might be a good chance to perform it in a “no pressure trial-run” sort of way.

    However, this is opera and I’ve always been very sensitive to the fact that not everyone likes opera. Also, the one other person who’s new is super worried about the talent show because they say they don’t have any talents. I don’t want to both bore people and come across like a total show off. So I have a back up talent – I can name the capitals of all of the countries in the world. Usually this manifests in people asking me a country and me naming the capital, which allows for direct audience interaction, which may be more fun than me just singing a song. It also wouldn’t be as “showy” as singing. But then I’m afraid some people might be disappointed if I don’t sing.

    I should say there’s nothing at stake here. There’s no declared winner or everything. It’s just some light work-related hazing that occasionally makes for some good stories later on.

    What do I do? Sing or name some capitals?

    2. Triplestep*

      Oh, but there is something at stake here … this is an initiation ritual. You and you co-worker are not being judged on your talents, but what good sports you are.

      I think you should sing, but do something really unexpected like sing a pop song lots of people know in an operatic style. Not only do some people not like opera, some people classify it as something snooty. I think you’d be showing a sense of humor by doing a pop song, or R&B, or classic rock – any kind of song that’s gotten radio air play that people know and might even clap or sing along to.

      If newbies can perform together, you can get your co-worker to join you as a back-up dancer. Or give ’em a tambourine and let ’em go wild. Wear funny wigs or hats you won’t have to wear for the rest of the evening. I can see this being very funny, and you’d be doing your fellow newbie a favor by including them.

      1. Singin in the Rain*

        Sadly, it’s a strict rule that newbies cannot perform together.

        I can actually sing pop/broadway well and have considered a piece like that. I would not sing a classic rock or pop song in an operatic style because that generally doesn’t translate well and sounds ridiculous. It would also take more effort than I’m willing to put in – arranging a piece, finding appropriate backing music, practicing. Like I said, I have a major audition coming up – my time is limited.

        I do appreciate what you’re saying about how some people find opera snooty. However, operas can be delightfully entertaining and humorous. And several opera pieces in my rep are humorous. If I decide to go funny, I would rather do like that than in a way that could be perceived as making a joke of the genre itself.

        And the people I work with do appreciate genuine talent, so I don’t feel the need to go over-the-top silly. My major concern about the opera singing is that it may be too showy compared to what the other person does. If the other person had something they felt very confident about, this wouldn’t be an issue. But I can appreciate feeling really nervous about performing and I don’t want to add on to that. The country capitals is lower key. But I know if I do that, some people will be really disappointed that I didn’t sing. I have several colleagues who are very excited about hearing me sing. So I don’t know what to do.

        1. Jaid_Diah*

          I’m waiting for my comment to get out of moderation ‘cos I posted a link to YouTube, but what do you think about Wakko’s Song naming the American states/capitals from Animaniacs?

          1. Singin in the rain*

            I love that song – I love the Animaniacs! And I have the state song memorized.
            But I don’t feel like the singing or memorization of that is particularly impressive, and I think really singing or being quizzed on country capitals would be more memorable.

            1. WellRed*

              I think you may be overestimating your audience. You are a trained singer. You will be impressive no matter what you perform. I vote for a fun Broadway piece over opera. And you said it yourself: people wanna hear you sing. Sing!

        2. Triplestep*

          I would not sing a classic rock or pop song in an operatic style because that generally doesn’t translate well and sounds ridiculous.

          Yes, that would be the point. You’d be exhibiting your sense of humor and ability to make fun of yourself a bit. That’s what these things are for. They are not truly to exhibit talent. I don’t think anyone would be disappointed in not getting to hear you sing for real – and if they are, they can come and see you in your well-respected chorus. As for the time it would take to prepare, they sell karaoke recordings on Amazon.

          For as sensitive you are about your co-worker’s misgivings, you are remarkably tone deaf (pun intended) about what’s actually being asked of you in participating in this show. Your co-workers appreciate genuine talent? That makes them different from … no one. Everyone appreciates talent. People also appreciate humor, especially when its the good old self-deprecating kind. You’re on the right track to be worried about coming off as “showy”. If you feel your only choices are to do the straight opera or other kind of singing, or the World Capital thing, you should probably go with the latter.

          1. Singin in the rain*

            I think all of your points are fair and a lot of people would probably agree.

            It’s just that what you’re suggesting – it’s not who I am. I know that’s probably disappointing, but one of the good things about being a musician is that you inevitably disappoint people – your teachers, your parents, your peers, even your audience sometimes. So thank you for reminding me of that, truly, because I can live with disappointing a few people. Lord knows I’ve done it before!

            So, I think I’m going to sing a great song from Gounoud’s Romeo et Juliette where I dress up as a teenage boy (I’m a lady), brandish a fake sword and humorously goad the Capulets. I think that piece is funny, entertaining and also stays true to who I am as a performer.

        3. char*

          I like the idea of a singing a funny opera piece for the talent show! I think that might have broader appeal than something more serious. (I say this as someone who LOVES opera in any form, but even I find the “fun” pieces more enjoyable when it comes to listening to recitals of music from operas, when you’re not hearing the music in the context of an entire staged opera.) Like, I went to a community chorus concert recently where one of the members is actually also an opera singer and did a fantastic rendition of Glitter and Be Gay, complete with plenty of prop jewelry. Everyone loved it!

          And I would say to go with singing for the talent show over the state capitals. Your coworker is going to be nervous about the talent show no matter what you do; there’s not really much you can do about that.

          1. Singin in the rain*

            I agree. I’m a mezzo, and do really well with the trouser roles, which are usually humorous because they’re cheeky/horny teenage boys. And the piece I’m thinking of requires a sword, which I can have a lot of fun making obviously fake and using in the performance. I think that’s the way to go here.

            1. valentine*

              I’m glad you decided to sing. There’s nothing wrong with showing off at a talent show. If you did want to go pop/rock, rickrolling or “Africa” would be great.

  191. Elizabeth West*

    This week is like that old Certs commercial! Two! Two! Two job rejections in one!

    Weekend is here. I don’t do any job stuff on the weekend. It’s the only way I’ve managed to stay sane. On the bright side, I’m up past 70K words on the sequel to the book no one wants. It does feel good to be writing regularly again. Trying to finish before Christmas.

  192. Shiny Door Knob*

    Just started at a new job in October. Today my co-workers asked if I would like to participate in a secret santa gift exchange. I said yes and went back to work. Later, when we were picking names, I remembered to ask about the minimum, assuming it would be $20-$25 like it has been everywhere else I have ever worked at. Imagine my shock when I was told “$50 AND UP!” I immediately felt uncomfortable for several reasons- A) I just started there. I don’t know anyone well enough to want to drop that kind of cash on them; plus I wouldn’t know what to get them as they didn’t do wish lists. B) They don’t know me well enough and I am the odd duck in the office because I am into completely different things than everyone else. They wouldn’t know what to get me. C) I really needed this job and have bills to pay, and while a $20 gift is perfectly within my budget, a $50+ gift is not. I waited a bit and asked to speak to my boss in private and asked if the gift exchange minimum could be lowered to $20-$25. She seemed stunned and asked why. I answered that I want to participate, but cannot for $50+. She ended up telling everyone and they began making snide remarks when they thought I wasn’t listening. They made jokes about cheapskates and stuff, which is not the case here. I honestly felt stunned and just ignored it and did my work. Sigh. I was really enjoying it there, too, but it seems people can’t just go about their day and NOT be petty and immature.

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      That’s awful! I think even $25 is high for most offices, and not putting an upper cap on a gift exchange will just lead to hurt feelings, one-upmanship, and general fail. You didn’t do anything wrong, and I understand why you are put off.

    2. Triplestep*

      I bet there are other people for whom $50.00 is too high, but they just suck it up. Maybe they are young people who get money for Christmas gifts and just use that so they can be “in with the in crowd”.

      I think you should either let your boss know that you’ll opt out so the minimum can be raised, or participate now that the minimum is lower and try to ignore the immature petty ones.

    3. WellRed*

      Hold your head up and be proud if yourself for trying. Also, you have learned something about your boss and your co-workers.

      1. Anono-me*

        This.

        I have always heard office gift exchange price ranges should be no more than 1/3 to 1/2 of the lowest hourly wage of anyone in the office. With this rule, the only way a $50.00 minimum is reasonable, is if the lowest paid person participating makes $150.00 an hour.

    5. Shiny Door Knob*

      Thanks everyone! After chatting with my husband about it, I feel better. I am going to participate and honestly will just continue to brush off the petty comments I may hear. I’m there to work and if someone cannot be civil, then they won’t be receiving any attention or time from me.

    6. Someone Else*

      FWIW, I’ve never experienced an office gift exchange with a dollar minimum. They’ve always been presented with maximums, and the highest one I’ve encountered is $25, so this new team seems entirely out of whack to me.

  193. Cat Herder*

    So curious to hear about other’s exit interview experiences. I want to leave on good terms. I usually try to bring up less controversial issues or hint at bigger issues without calling them out. How have others handled them?

  194. BeeJiddy*

    Just curious if the lab or uni or other sciencey group you are involved with is planning any activities to commemorate International Year of the Periodic Table in 2019? I’d love to suggest something for my Women’s STEM club or even for the faculty/school I’m studying under because I think it would be fun, but the best I can come up with is baking and decorating a big periodic table cake. One of my majors is food science, and I was a baker before coming back to uni so it’s a project I’m happy to take the lead on but it would be nice to have some suggestions to go along with that. I’ve also considered a Science/STEM-themed quiz night, however, orchestrating something like that is well outside of my skillset. I assume the Head of Chemistry is already cooking something up, as it was mentioned briefly in a lecture earlier this year, so at least I know suggestions will probably be warmly welcomed.

    1. Cat Herder*

      I don’t, but this sounds awesome. There’s that elements book with photos of things made from each element, maybe you could make a display of things around the office, like halogen in lights, etc.

  195. Bee's Knees*

    Someone send help.

    I’m working late (ish) tonight trying to get some paperwork processed before the deadline. I have not eaten in eight hours, and I came in late today. I mention this because the sweet lady who is working as the receptionist right now “cleaned” my office. And by cleaned, I mean she moved all my papers, sprayed enough pledge to fumigate a house, threw away my water, and filled up the giant candy bucket I have been trying so hard to foist off on people. She filled it with mini 3 musketeers.

    They may find me Monday morning dead from a sugar coma.

  196. Beachlover*

    Last year I had applied for a position as a teapot salesperson at a company I did my college internship at. In January of this year I h ad received a call from the company ‘s administrative assistant named Arya who told me that she had received my application and was supposed to call back later th at evening to schedule an interview but nothing happens then two days later I called Sansa the human resources manager but however I was unable to hear her due to technical difficulties with my house phone for al most a year. Since then I was put in a paralysis of fear over it for the rest of the year because I kept overanalyzing whether I had missed the interview or not. Then in June or July, I networked with a fairly new employee from the compàny named Jane, who works as a teapot inspector on LinkedIn. Me and Jane got along very well and became best friends. Jane gave me the same advise as everyone else to call back but I was to nervous. When I called in October I was told hiring was slow because of slow teapot sales and Sansa was off for a few days and last month Sansa was not at her desk. Today and Every other time I tried to call I either got sick or my nerves and fears gets the best of me. I want to try ag son in the New Year because I believe Sansa may be on her holiday vacation what should I do?

    1. WellRed*

      There is no job here at this time for you. Do you know Sansa from your time there as an intern? Could you send her a quick email, mentioning that you enjoyed your time there and would like to be kept in mind uf anything opens up? But otherwise, please, move on.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed, ship has sailed. I like the idea of email because that gets you over the hurdle with the phone issues.

        If you have not done so already, please see about getting your phone line fixed. If that is not possible, please find a reliable phone you can use. It is worth it to spend the time and money if need be. This level of stress is just too hard. Get a good phone connection.

  197. Spinning Going Nowhere*

    IN NEED OF SOME ADVICE

    I started a new job several months ago. For the last few months, I’ve felt like it may not be a fit. I tried to advance into a senior administrative role for sometime and feeling disappointed with my current role.

    The manager is somewhat new to his role, doesn’t know how to delegate to his managers and doesn’t handle stress well. Becomes moody and can be condescending/rude. He doesn’t know how to utilize me and doesn’t seem open to hearing me (I’ve tried). I have no autonomy in my role and it just feels like no matter how hard I try, it’s not coming together. I find myself second guessing things and wondering what I am doing here. There’s other issues, but this is the major problem. This is something I wanted for quite sometime. I left my previous job of 10+ years and I don’t regret that, but feeling this just isn’t a good fit for me.

      1. Spinning Going Nowhere*

        If he weren’t such a prick, and had my back across the board, I feel things would be okay. He treats me like I don’t know anything when I have 30 years experience.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Do you have any reason to distrust your sense that it’s not a fit? I think it’s okay to move on. You were at your last job for ten years; it’s okay to have one short stint after that.

      1. Triplestep*

        Agree. It only took me a few months in my current job to realize that my manager was the problem, and the job would have been a fit otherwise. I then survived two layoffs and could see that my responsibilities were going to change to cover the work of the ones who got let go.

        Fast forward and my predictions have come true. I’m doing work I didn’t sign up for and reporting to someone who does not know how to manage. I work with some otherwise good people, so it’s too bad I have to go … but I do. I’d consider staying if the commute wasn’t so bad, but all in all it is not worth it.

        In your shoes I would start looking now. It could take a while to find something and then you’ll have over a year at the job to put on your resume. Sorry you’re having to go through this.

        1. Spinning Going Nowhere*

          Thank you Triplestep. Wishing you the best with your situation too. I have a bad commute too (2 hours to get home) and totally understand. I would start looking, but tell myself to give it a chance. But in my gut and every day I go in to work, I realize it isn’t gonna work.

      2. Spinning Going Nowhere*

        No there’s no reason to distrust my senses. I’ve been trying to make this fit, but it just doesn’t. With all of my experience, I just feel lost. No tools, no support or encouragement. When I tried talking to him about my concerns, he told me not to take things personal and made it about him/his job. But most of all I am not happy there.

  198. Here we go again*

    How do you get rid of a crush at work? At one point he did like me, but I think he’s moved on to the girl that he manages. She’s sweet and I like her- they make a cute couple, but I think I like him now. How do I stop it?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Er, if he’s obviously crushing on someone he manages, that’s a problem. Poor manager judgment, for one. Most places at least frown on that, if not have written policies against it.

      As for managing the crush, probably the best thing to do is avoid contact with him if possible. That’s helped me in the past, but the other thing that does it is keeping in mind something unattractive about them so you’re not only focusing on the cute, fun stuff.

  199. An Any Moose*

    Not sure if my phone ate my comment or what (apologies if not and this is a double post), but I was wondering if something I heard this week was a common/acceptable policy. Is it odd to expect an employee to fulfill a role *well* in advance of giving them a promotion? That is, expecting them to take on job duties as if they had been promoted, but not changing their title or pay until they’d kept it up for an extended period of time. I get giving them *some* bigger challenges to make sure they could cut it in a new role, but this… I don’t know, it just sort strikes me as… off. Is this normal? I’ve only worked in a couple places at this point, so I have basically zero context as to how common and/or accepted this really is.

    2. 653-CXK*

      At ExJob, we had four title ranks, plus a senior rank for each. As you went up in rank, your title and pay increased. When we had a reorganization six years ago, the senior titles and ranks were eliminated, and I lost a few of my duties while keeping the same pay (and getting raises until I reached the end of my salary rank).

      When management adds duties without a change in title or pay, it’s because management wants to save money, and to redistribute work without going through an actual promotion process, which involves interviews, a lot of paperwork, moving desks, pay changes, etc.

    3. Sam Foster*

      653-CXK hit the nail on the head: “When management adds duties without a change in title or pay, it’s because management wants to save money, and to redistribute work without going through an actual promotion process, which involves interviews, a lot of paperwork, moving desks, pay changes, etc.”

      I would add that if you aren’t feeling taken advantage of you should.

      1. An Any Moose*

        So glad I’m not the only one thinking that! Thanks for confirming I’m not crazy. They were actually touting the policy as something to be proud of, but it just sounds like they’re taking advantage of their employees to me. I was already planning on leaving, but if I weren’t, I think this would have pushed me further out the door.

      2. 653-CXK*

        Thanks, Sam!

        Let me flesh this out a little more: our department was very much adverse to layoffs – even the mere mention of the word would cause near panic on each of the teams. The reorg (“simplification”) gave employees some autonomy (we would receive assignments and arrange the work ourselves vs. being assigned by a supervisor), but its real intent was to eliminate the rank structure in our department, and especially senior positions, which were euphemistically transformed to “subject matter experts.” They also did it to encourage people quitting on their own…a record number of people retired within the year, and others transferred to other parts of the company. When work done by the retirees piled up, it got packaged up and distributed to employees without the benefit of a pay increase.

        As for the exploitation part: most of the employees in our department were foreign, and while they were good employees, they didn’t want to (or were afraid to) raise a fuss about the new program – which is likely why management did it with little resistance, because management knew that these employees didn’t know office politics. Anyone did speak out about it were managed out within a year or two.

        I’m pretty sure the same structure exists today, but it took me a long time to realize how dysfunctional and nasty that restructuring really was. Sure, it simplified things – for management, because they didn’t have to promote people, they didn’t have to execute layoffs, and they could get rid of deadwood without lifting a finger.

  200. WG*

    I’m probably much too late, but I have a question. Does anyone have experience with hiring through a temp agency for a temp-to-perm situation from the employer perspective? We’re having a hard time getting a good pool of applicants for a slightly more than entry level position. I’m thinking of suggesting looking into going through a local temp agency for a temp that, if it works out, could be hired permanently. I’ve never gone this route as either an employee or employer, so not sure the exact way it could work. Pros and cons?

    1. Grace Less*

      It’s going to be pricey, that’s a con. The pro is that you’ll get to assess the skills of your potential employee in real time, and you might find a very qualified person whom you might have overlooked due to a gap on their resume or a perceived skills mismatch.

  201. Sim*

    Hello,
    I have been hired at a very basic salary for a senior position (scientist) that involves thinking and lot of experimental work as well. I am also told that I am replacing a much less junior person (a technician) and I have to take care of some of her job as well. initially, I was told that I will have help from some other people trained under her to help me, then in later emails, it was asked of me, to do them myself as too many hands, means too many problems.

    Now I am told that I have to take care of things which do not belong to me, I have no stake in them and neither has anyone else, at this point. In fiture, it might be of any importance to them, but it will never be for me. For me, it is like cleaning someone else’s mess, and I do not want to get my hands dirty (figuratively) and neither do I want to be held responsible for someone else’s mess and cleaning. That is neither my job, nor my concern.

    A much junior colleague of mine is expecting me to be like that technician coming on weekends to do what she has been doing. He asked me if I will be around in December in front of the boss. I replied not during holidays. She says they have been spoiled by her as she comes during every weekend. I am a foreigner in this country and this is a new country. The experience has been extremely negative till now. I am not getting any positive vibes about the position. The boss is a big shot, not available any time. He told me a lot of time, my CV is not impressive and he wold not hire me more than a year as he will see the chemistry and what I bring to the position. Which is all fine, but I know I am an expert in my area and they need me more than I need them. Their plans and design have major flaws and it will need serious and a lot of time to come up with an alternate. He wanted me to think about it, when I was on vacation in my home country and when i was not even employed!

    I do not understand how to handle this. I have never encountered this sort of behaviour before.

    WHAT TO DO!!!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This is what things look like when management does not know how to manage.

      It sounds like you don’t have a lot of warm feelings about this place BUT they feel the same about you.

      Running at the same time they need a savior, they need someone to clean up this and that which no one else is doing. Added complexity: you have no interest in cleaning up problems.

      The boss said he would give you a year. I don’t know how far into your year you are. But since you feel that they need you more than you need them, that would appear to be your answer. Dust off the resume and start job hunting again. You have a stalemate here. They have Y work and you want X work. It does not seem like they are going to change, so that means time to move on.

      1. Sim*

        Thank you Not So NewReader,
        Yes, time to move on. I am only a month in this job. But I do know I do not like to be 3-in-1 person for 1/3rd of the pay!
        Thanks again,
        Sim

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