open thread – December 7-8, 2018

by Alison Green on December 7, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Detective Amy Santiago*

    tl;dr – should I say something about how the excessive Christmas decorating in my office could be offensive to people who don’t celebrate?

    Context: I started working for my large employer in May. One of the values they tout and hammer home during onboarding is diversity & inclusion. They sponsor the local Pride parade and have a comprehensive policy in place for employees who are transitioning.

    I work in a large cube farm and there is a decorating contest that apparently people take Very Seriously. I’m talking multiple full size fake Christmas trees, cubes covered in wrapping paper, lights and tinsel galore. I was raised Catholic and still celebrate Christmas and find it a little overwhelming.

    My question is – should I bring up to management the fact that this is not exactly in the spirit of diversity and inclusion? I don’t want to be a performative ally and act offended on behalf of minority religion colleagues if they don’t mind, but I also don’t want to tacitly approve of what’s happening. To be clear, I don’t have an issue with small, unobtrusive decorations in people’s cubes and am not suggesting that all decorating cease. I just feel like if I was Jewish or Muslim, I would feel uncomfortable in this space. (And I should note here that we’re in Pittsburgh so I feel like we should be especially sensitive to it this year.)

    However, I’m new and this is my first holiday season here so I’m not sure if this has been addressed in the past or not. From what I’ve heard, the excessive decorating is not a thing that is new this year.

    Now, there is a suggestion box where people can leave anonymous suggestions, so I could say something without revealing my identity. One of the senior managers routinely sends out emails addressing the suggestions. I just don’t know if I should risk being That Guy.

    1. esra*

      I would go the anonymous suggestion route and see how that goes.

      The over-the-top Christmas decorating drives me nuts, too. And it’s so much garbage at the end of it.

      1. Mike C.*

        Anonymous suggestion? Why should anyone take an unsigned note from someone who wasn’t professional enough to speak to them as an adult seriously?

        1. AMPG*

          If you go back and re-read, you’ll note that management uses and responds to the anonymous suggestion box, so it’s a valid option here.

      2. Grumpy-pants the Sanctimonious*

        I do celebrate Christmas and the over the top decorating would annoy me. The waste, the distraction, the headache-inducing scents. I wouldn’t say anything, particularly as a new person, but I’d certainly fume inwardly. And then polish up my mental “It’s not even Christmas yet, it’s Advent” rant. Which, obviously, would never leave my mouth. Particularly at work.

        As if the decorations showing up in stores around Halloween isn’t bad enough, some years I just want to scream that the 12 days of Christmas *start* on Dec 25 and while I might grudgingly accept a few descriptivist accommodations in language (not to ever include the increasingly wide-spread misuse of “begging the question”) I refuse to accept just randomly moving the 12 days of Christmas for the benefit of some retailer.

        1. Deep Purple Dream*

          Oh this. Fortunately for my sanity my grand boss insists that if we decorate for Christmas it stays up for the Christmas season. We have an Orthodox Christian on staff and he won’t celebrate Christmas until January 7th.

    2. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      I could be biased, but Christmas has become more than a religious holiday, and much of what have become Christmas traditions (including music and decorations) are not at all religious in nature.

      Further, a lot of people do like this holiday, and what is considered excessive is somewhat subjective, so just as a matter of getting along, I’m not sure I would make this my issue as a newcomer.

      1. Zona the Great*

        I agree, OP. Best not to be offended by very much of what others do in the workplace. It’ll make life easier.

      2. Ms.Vader*

        I think that if you are personally not offended by it, you shouldn’t speak for others that you don’t actually know to be offended by it. The people you work with are adults and can presumably speak up if they are concerned. We have a very diverse office here and everyone decorated accordingly – some people have traditional Christmas decorations and Jewish people decorate for Hanukkah and so on. Nobody has complained here. Though I am in Canada so not sure if that’s a difference here in culture.

        1. Coder von Frankenstein*

          I agree. I’m an atheist, and I’m not always thrilled about being surrounded by a frenzy of religious symbolism for two months; but I would not want anyone to start an argument over it on my behalf. If you’re gonna pick fights in my name, I have a long list of fights I’d rather see picked. :)

          If someone who has a problem with the Christmas stuff complains, you can certainly back them up, but don’t take it on yourself to champion their cause unless they indicate that they want it championed.

          1. Coder von Frankenstein*

            (That said, if there are any non-Christians in the office you feel close enough with to have such a conversation, you could privately inquire how they feel about the Christmas frenzy, and offer your support in addressing it if that’s where they want to go.)

          2. pony tailed wonder*

            I’m agnostic and if they let people decorate for their own holidays, then I am fine with it. If it brings them joy then let people have their joy.

            I do get miffy when they play holiday music that you cannot escape from when you need to concentrate.

      3. anon today and tomorrow*

        It’s easy to say Christmas traditions aren’t at all religious in nature when you’re not part of a group that feels suffocated by Christmas because you don’t celebrate it. They may not hold religious significance to you, but they’re still involved in a holiday where Christ is in the title and were borne of religious significance.

        I don’t care how many times people will tell me that poinsettias, stockings, or stars on trees aren’t religious. They still feel that way to me as someone who doesn’t celebrate the holiday.

        1. Annonynon*

          This. I’m Jewish and I find it suffocating that I have to see all things Christmas the day after Halloween. It just screams let’s point out how I’m different for two months.

          Cube decorating per se wouldn’t bother me. It would bother me if I could see a full on tree walking around my area.

          On the company sponsored front, it bothers me that the stairwells at my office appear to be playing Christmas carols all month. I wish they’d mix in some multicultural music/generic winter music.

          1. anon today and tomorrow*

            Yes. I don’t care if people want to decorate their cubes, but it’s especially obvious you don’t celebrate if your cube is the only one with no decoration. Especially if you have to deal with the onslaught for two months.

            Honestly, I get more annoyed with people who try to claim the way Christmas is celebrated today has no religious connections than people who are just super into decorating. Stop trying to insist a holiday with Christ in the title no longer has religious connections.

            1. Phoenix Programmer*

              I mean – Santa use to be Odin. Holidays change.

              I am going to keep my secular Christmas. You can decide it’s not for you. Christmas is religious to some secular to some and a Kurisumasu Keki to others.

              Diversity and inclusion means not trying to stop any of them imo.

              1. Working Hypothesis*

                I don’t think anybody is trying to say that secular people can’t celebrate a holiday with religious origins if they want to. What we *are* saying is that the constant claim that it’s okay to shove a holiday with religious origins on people who don’t feel comfortable with it because “it’s not really religious anymore” is disingenuous and unfair. You’re free to decide *for yourself* that you’re going to celebrate it as a secular holiday. You’re not free to insist that *other* people accept having it inflicted on them “because it’s just a secular holiday” if that is not how those people perceive it.

        3. TiffanyAching*

          I’m experiencing this for the first time this year. I was raised in a non-religious household, but my parents come from Christian families so I grew up with Christmas and Easter being celebrated, but without the Jesus bits. I’m now in the process of converting to Judaism, and it’s really opened my eyes to how many things are, for lack of a better way to put it, part of “Christian culture,” even if they aren’t overtly religious.

          I really liked Christmas growing up, and we’ll still celebrate it because my husband isn’t Jewish, but I definitely am feeling weird about all the trees and Santas and things now that it’s not “my” holiday.

        4. Operational Chaos*

          This. The continual assertion that “Christmas is, like, basically, secular anyways” is so tone deaf and dismissive. It’s not secular, especially not in the United States, and when people say that kind of stuff it reads like they’re just trying to hush people with legitimate complaints.

          1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

            Not really. Christmas is a staple holiday from a culture that, yes, has a history of being predominately Christian. Things are never going to simply be neutral because no culture is neutral, so if that’s the expectation then I think people will perpetually feel upset about it because you won’t be able to convince people to give up their traditions.

            No one has to participate, but the comments about many of the traditions now being secular simply mean that there’s nothing about them that someone who is not a Christian could not participate in if they were so inclined.

              1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

                Sorry Alison, but my comment didn’t erase anyone. There are many faiths and life philosophies that will result in someone choosing not to partake in a lot of different activities, including Christmas or other celebrations, whether religious or secular in nature. There are many activities that I choose not to engage in, whether for religious or personal reasons.
                Doing so or not doing so is an individual choice. And I would consider myself rather self-centered to believe that I was going to make an office full of people bend to my pov. *That* in my view, is more the issue here.

                As I said, *if* they are so inclined, there are plenty of Christmastime traditions which do not require affirmation in any religious principles because they are simply general holiday songs. Jingle Bells would be an example. Mariah Carey’s “All I Want for Christmas is You” is another example. Both have become Christmas staples but have nothing whatsoever to do with anything religious. When office traditions begin requiring people to make religious affirmations or even to participate in what is going on, then there will be more of a basis for the implied accusation of religious discrimination.

                1. YB*

                  Yes, I mean, *if* people are so inclined, they can participate in Christmas. That’s true of anything. If I’m so inclined, I can participate in Passover or Ramadan. But I’m not Jewish or Muslim, so I’m not so inclined. Christmas is not exclusionary because it’s hard to do; it’s exclusionary because a lot of people aren’t inclined to do it, and are therefore excluded.

                  (I love Christmas a lot.)

                2. Someone Else*

                  There was a really good thread here recently, in response to a different letter…maybe can Allison can help find it? But it was a really productive, I thought, discussion of the “not my holiday” issue, which I do feel like you’re trying to erase here. Maybe someone can provide a link? I think if you read some of that discussion it might give you some good perspective here.
                  Or possibly if we wait an hour or two that same discussion will have repeated itself here.

                5. Sapphire*

                  Many commenters above you who aren’t Christian said they feel erased by all the Christmas stuff around. You can’t say you didn’t erase anyone when the affected people are literally telling you the opposite.

                6. Working Hypothesis*

                  A casual aside because everyone else has taken up the main issue so I don’t feel a new to belabor it: Jingle Bells actually isn’t a Christmas song at all. It’s a Valentine’s Day song, to the extent it belongs to any particular holiday. Winter used to be courting season because most people did farm work and winter was the slow season for the labor that needed doing, so it was prime time for taking one’s girlfriend out for some fun. Christmas would be significantly too early for that in most areas. January and February were more the tight time, which is why it was convenient to park a lovers’ festival right in the middle of February to begin with.

                  Absorbing it into the motley collection of songs erroneously labeled “Christmas carols” (a term properly only used for songs about the birth of Jesus, not about the holiday of Christmas, let alone the general season of winter) is just one more example of the way the Christmas fanatics have gobbled up every unrelated tradition that would normally exist between the end of October and the start of March. For heaven’s sake, there can and should be winter things which are not Christmas things!!

              2. Anon for today*

                If I live in India, I’m not going to be offended if they decorate the office for Diwali. India is a large country with many religions, but Hinduism is the most popular and therefore a huge part of the culture. it would be normal to see reminders of that specific holiday around that time of year. Christianity is a huge part of American culture and while I believe very strongly in the importance of separation of church and state and individual expression of religion, we can’t just erase a big part of Americans culture because other people don’t belong to that religion

                1. Phoenix Programmer*

                  This is where I land. And in my experience christian people living in non Christian majority countries are fine participating in cultural events with pagan/Jewish/Muslim/Shinto etc. backgrounds. I’m reminded of the Jew in Japan who wrote in. He wrote in about Christmas – not White day, the doll festival, Cherry blossom festival, Matsuri, New Year’s – many many other religious based holidays in Japan offices celebrated annually but it’s the secular Kurisumasu keiki that you want the office to stop? Diversity and inclusion means including Christians too. I’m an atheist but American withchristian ancestors so celebrate a secular Christmas. That’s ok.

            2. motherofdragons*

              In response to the part of your comment that says “there’s nothing about them that someone who is not a Christian could not participate in if they were so inclined” – perhaps that’s true, but that’s not what OP’s predicament is about. OP isn’t asking about people who aren’t Christian who *want* to participant, but don’t feel like they can…OP is talking about people who aren’t Christian who DON’T want to participate, but are surrounded by images of Christmas all the same. I agree with you that as the new person in the office, I probably wouldn’t choose this issue to start rocking the boat with (especially since no one to date has raised complaints about it because of their beliefs). But, your comments don’t appear to take into account the fact that people may not WANT to participate in these traditions, and moreover may be bothered by seeing so much of it on a daily basis.

            3. Triplestep*

              Christmas is still a religious holiday. The symbols, traditions and trappings — even if they themselves seem secular — are the symbols, traditions and trappings of a religious holiday. Just ask anyone who comes from a non-Christian background.

              If it makes you feel better to call Christmas a secular holiday so you can celebrate it in a secular way, go ahead. But you should not expect that to be internalized by people whose non-Christian families never celebrated it.

            4. Ann O.*

              Other than that they are associated with a holiday that celebrates the birth of Christ. Which is a pretty defining thing. While there are people who celebrate Christmas in a secular way from a non-religious perspective, there are no secular traditions.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            It isn’t really secular, but a lot of people who aren’t otherwise religious do participate in the secular elements of it (presents, etc.), which is where that’s coming from, I think.

        5. Zennish*

          I find having a healthy sense of the absurd helps me be less annoyed with it. For example, our neighbor regularly decorates with a large, light up, inflatable nativity flanked by several Santa Clauses and snowmen, a light up mickey mouse and snoopy, and a large inflatable dragon wearing a Santa hat. I can’t count the time I’ve spent speculating on his religious beliefs, or occasionally making up entire new religions just based on the display.

          2. char*

            A business near where I grew up always gave me a laugh with their Christmas decorations, which inevitably featured Rudolph watching over the infant Christ.

      4. Asenath*

        A lot – I’m tempted to say “almost all” – of current Christmas practices are not religious. It’s just bling and colour and parties that are pretty divorced from their origins. Now, that doesn’t mean some people aren’t offended by all the fuss over Christmas, but it doesn’t sound like Detective Amy is one of them; rather, that she’s concerned that others might be offended, which is fair enough. I’d let things go until/unless someone who is offended speaks up rather than make assumptions that people are offended even if no one said so. I’m rather anti-anonymity, myself, so I wouldn’t go the anonymous message route even if the workplace accepts and encourages that option.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          You’re correct that I am not personally offended. My concern was that someone who is might not feel comfortable speaking up against the majority though. But like Girl from the North Country said below, I also don’t want to assume offense on anyone’s behalf.

        2. ThatGirl*

          While most modern Christmas practices aren’t overtly religious, it’s still a Christian holiday, and I can see someone who’s Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, any other US-minority religion or just plain non-religious getting annoyed with it. I say that as someone who used to argue that “oh, Christmas is secular!” – it has been heavily commercialized and secularized, but that doesn’t make it non-Christian.

      5. pcake*

        While it’s true that some people may feel left out, a lot of us feel that Christmas is more cultural for us than religious.

        My parents were atheists, but we celebrated Christmas every year with a beautiful tree we all helped decorate, lights around the house, and lots of presents. Then we’d have a Christmas dinner with all the trimmings with both sets of grandparents and my uncle. Our holiday was about love, warmth and family with no hint of religion ever – after all, my parents didn’t believe in religion.

        Btw, OP – if you’re one of the newest people in your department, might it not be easy for the powers that be or HR or your manager to figure out whose anonymous note was left about inclusiveness?

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          There are hundreds of employees on my floor, so I don’t think it would single me out.

        2. Cedrus Libani*

          That’s true for me, too. My parents and much of my family are atheists, but we’re culturally Christian. So I have fond memories of lights, and presents, and family dinners – the reasons for the season, heh. I’m personally OK with treating the baby Jesus thing as a cultural artifact, part of the heritage of the holiday, rather than something I actually have to believe in to participate. I don’t believe in ghosts either, yet I still enjoy Halloween.

          But my partner was raised atheist in a culturally Chinese Buddhist family. So for him, Christmas was always a reminder that he’s Not Like The Others. His family didn’t celebrate it, so he doesn’t have the positive associations. I’ve had to get more sensitive about Christmas not actually being everyone’s holiday.

      6. Triplestep*

        Jew, here.

        Christmas is still very much a religious holiday. My anecdotal evidence is that people who argue the most that “it’s become a secular holiday” are those who celebrate it as such, and may feel a little squicky doing so. In other words, they are saying this to make themselves feel OK about celebrating a cherished childhood holiday even though they no longer subscribe to the religious aspects of it. That’s fine – personally, I don’t really care how or why they celebrate it. But it’s still a religious holiday, and it’s symbols are symbols of a religious holiday no matter what the symbols’ origins are.

        ALL THAT SAID, as a non-celebrant, I find it really distasteful when people who DO celebrate want to police other people’s office decorations, celebrations, etc, on my behalf. Please don’t do this, people. As long as it is “sans Jesus” I really do not care, and I am far from alone among non-celebrants of Christmas. People often assume offense on my behalf when I am not offended at all, and that gets old. It is a given I will feel “other” this time of year, and trying to police the way other colleagues mark Christmas at work is not going to change that. I don’t want to be the reason people don’t decorate, change their Christmas greetings, etc.

        What does bother me is seeing Chanukah Menorahs at work or in other public places. Chanukah is a minor holiday so attempts to blow it up to something Christmas-like is misguided to begin with. But unlike a Christmas tree, a Chanukah Menorah is a religious symbol, so it should not be used as a decoration any more than a crucifix should.

        1. Harvey P. Carr*

          “Chanukah is a minor holiday so attempts to blow it up to something Christmas-like is misguided to begin with.”

          As a non-practicing Jew, I think that’s because both involve presents and they occur around the same time of year. When I was a kid I thought Chanukah was the Jewish version of Christmas.

          1. curly sue*

            The presents are part of that ‘blowing up,’ as well. Hanukkah gift-giving was originally token coins or candies meant to teach children to give to charity, and not toys and such. That was added, gift giving shifted from Purim to Hanukkah, when Christmas became too much of a cultural juggernaut to ignore (late 19th century).

        2. Lissa*

          Yessss to your first paragraph! It’s totally because many people who aren’t Christian still want to celebrate Christmas and feel weird about being told they are doing something religious by doing it. I get that. I’m not Christian and I still want a winter holiday sometimes. But it’s still religious in origin. Though complicated because there are countries like Japan that do not have majority christianity and still celebrate it…

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            Winter holidays centered around lights — regardless of the holiday or the culture — come from the primitive human mind’s fear that the sun won’t really come back again. So we make our own light and sing bravely in the darkness until we see the days beginning to get longer again.

            There’s nothing wrong with doing this with whatever pretty forms of light and song and feast and community that suits you. There’s a lot wrong with inflicting the forms that suit one on others whom they *don’t* suit. That’s all any of us have been trying to say here.

        3. Phoenix Programmer*

          Nah. I don’t feel squicky about decorating a frasier fer with pretty lights and tinsel. It’s part of my identy growing up in America. It’s connected to my families Christian heritage but has been well divorced from them in our family for generations.

          I also know a lot of Christian history – Jesus was born in the summer. Christmas is actually the coopting of Pagan and particularly Viking pagan religions to win them over.

          God’s aren’t real. People don’t have souls. But the tree is pretty and I like to keep at least one tradition.

          Honestly i feel most squicky about Thanksgiving with the very recent genocide and all. But love a good meal.

          1. Triplestep*


            Nah. I don’t feel squicky about decorating a frasier fer with pretty lights and tinsel. It’s part of my identy growing up in America. It’s connected to my families Christian heritage but has been well divorced from them in our family for generations.

            That’s great. If that’s the case, I wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about how often the “It’s a secular holiday anyway” argument gets bandied about by people who don’t want to acknowledge its religious roots because they are not religious and feel weird about celebrating a religious holiday.

        4. Working Hypothesis*

          What bothers me is seeing Chanukah being recognized and treated as relevant (whether with menorahs or just being wished Happy Chanukah by colleagues who know I’m Jewish) by people who don’t treat Pesach or the High Holy Days as relevant. Because Chanukah *is* a minor holiday, and while I do know they’re just trying to be kind and inclusive, it’s really not inclusive to say what amounts to “your holidays are only important when they parallel OUR important holidays. The rest of the time, we don’t even notice their existence.”

          I mean, my former workplace put up a menorah in their window and made sure that the present they gave me in late December (regardless of when Chanukah actually fell that year!), while also trying to demand that I take Saturday shifts. I’m sorry, but it is not respect for my faith to give lip service to a minor holiday without even Torah origins, and refuse to let me keep Shabbat!!

          1. Triplestep*

            I have been saying this – nearly verbatim! – for years. The only thing I add is to mention the irony that Chanukah celebrates the first war in recorded history that was fought on the grounds of religious freedom. How ironic that its been wrapped up into Christmas in some misguided attempt to show how “same” we all are. We are NOT the same – and that’s OK! If you want to be “inclusive” find out when my important holidays actually are and acknowledge them then.

            Anyone still reading this … go to your 2019 calendar and mark September 29 as Rosh Hashannah. Make yourself a note to say “Happy New Year” to the Jews you know any time during the week that follows. This will be really appreciated, I guarantee it.

            1. planetmort*

              Exactly. I enjoy Chanukah, but it’s not a the big deal that other holidays are. Also, it’s really holiday all about not being inclusive – I once heard a Christian neighbor talk about Chanukah being about how we’re all one, and the same, and I was like “whoever taught you the Chanukah story got it wrong, boo”.

              Speaking as a Jew, Christmas isn’t secular. I am not bothered by its ubiquity (anymore), but it’s hardly a secular holiday. That said, unless my workplace is insisting I go caroling or something, I’m not going to get het up about Christmas decorations, even excessive ones. On the scale of workplace issues it doesn’t rate.

      7. Not Today*

        Yeah, when I was a Buddhist, I celebrated “Christmas”. There was no Christ in my celebration but lots of fun and pretty winter decorations.

      8. Screenwriter*

        It may seem like it’s not “religious” in nature, but it is religious in nature. It is celebrating a Christian holiday. It’s Christmas, the birth of your “Christ,” with devotional songs (“Oh Holy Night,” “Away in a Manger,” “O Come All Ye Faithful,” “Hark the Herald Angels Sing”), devotional nativity scenes representing the mythology of your God, devotional services in your places of worship, etc etc. For Christians to insist that “Christ”mas is somehow not just their religious holiday but a universal holiday that everyone must participate in and enjoy, is endlessly tone deaf to those of other religions.

    3. Meredith Brooks*

      I would pull out an enormous menorah with dreidls and gelt decorations everywhere. My cube would be a vision of blue and white. Holiday decorations come in all shapes. Bring out Ganesh or Krampus or Baby New Year whatever means holiday spirit to you.

      1. Overeducated*

        Last year I had Jewish coworker who did that, with a light up Hanukkah sweater to match, and it was amazing. I don’t think he won the contest but he made an awesome statement. (I also enjoyed the non-religious “Winter in Narnia” cubicle, whose occupant dressed as the White Queen for the party.)

        1. ThatGirl*

          While Narnia may not /seem/ religious, CS Lewis was a prominent Christian writer and the Narnia books are full of Christian symbolism.

          1. Overeducated*

            The cubicle wasn’t decorated as “Death and Resurrection of Aslan” (which is also a common literary trope you’ll find in, say, Harry Potter), it was snowflakes, silver glitter, and a white dress and wig. You’d have to be bringing a lot with you to interpret specifically Christian symbolism there, I’ve read the books and most of Lewis’s theological writing and I can’t easily think of a way to read it that way.

            1. anon today and tomorrow*

              Death and resurrection is a common literary trope but in Narnia it’s specifically meant to be a Christian allegory compared to many other works. The whole series is a pretty obvious Christian allegory.

              Regardless, I do agree that snowflakes and glitter can’t really be seen as Christian in any possible way, so that’s a stretch.

          2. Forkeater*

            Yeah, I would interpret Narnia as full blown Christian, the symbology was extremely blatant and purposeful.

            1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

              So, dressing up as the White Witch, i.e. the devil, while ruling Narnia as murderous dictator oppressing God’s people? Narnia under her rule was always winter and never Christmas.

              I can see how a Christian might, if very very uptight, be offended by the symbolism, or possibly a very very uptight Luciferian would object, but anybody else should probably re-read the book.

        2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          This is great. I celebrate Christmas, I like decorating, I would be ecstatic if everyone around decorated in however they celebrate; if it’s Hanukkah, Solstice, Kwanzaa, New Years, or Tuesday.

          As I said, I celebrate Christmas. I’m not celebrating at anyone. I’d be tickled if someone wished me a Happy Hanukkah or shared their Winter Solstice traditional wishes. The way I see it, the more the merrier.

          This goes for all other times of the year. I had fun when I went out for lunch with some coworkers to celebrate Diwali. My office used to have a big lunch to celebrate the Lunar New Year, everyone loved it. It would have been great to have the opportunity to have other celebrations, but we were a really small office and didn’t have a whole lot of diversity when in came to ethnicity and religion- It would have been a little weird of us to try to celebrate a holiday none of us had first hand knowledge in IYKWIM.

          I get it, in predominately Christian areas, I’m sure Christmas is overwhelming and inescapable (trust me, by the end of it, I’m ready to move on). Just as I’m sure in areas with other primary religions the culture centers around their holidays.

          So I guess all that being said, I’m in the camp that says bring it on, celebrate how you want, where you want, and when you want. I think that’s the better alternative to banning all celebrations. Man what a boring world this would be.

          1. Winifred*

            But does it have a place at anyone’s office where people may be offended or feel erased (to use Alison’s term)? Decorate all you want at home!

            1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

              I think you missed my point. I want to celebrate everyone’s holidays. I want people to do their thing in the office and celebrate whatever they celebrate.

              Like I said, I’d rather celebrate more than less.

        3. General Ginger*

          Unfortunately, Winter in Narnia is hardly non-religious. Christian apologetics was CS Lewis’s bread and butter; Mere Christianity is a perennial classic thereof, and the Narnia books have a considerable amount of Christian imagery and symbolism.

          1. Autumnheart*

            The Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe also has a lot of anti-fascist symbolism, I was surprised to note when I last re-read the books. I’d never caught on to that aspect before, but holy COW did it jump out at me after the last couple years of political circus.

          2. Overeducated*

            Yes, but those books are entirely different genres! Do you think Lord of the Rings is inappropriate for the workplace because Tolkien talked about religion with Lewis? Mere Christianity is explicitly a book of Christian apologetics, and yes, THAT would be a highly inappropriate cubicle decoration. The Narnia books are children’s fantasy novels that have some Christian symbolism. I can probably name most of the same tropes in Harry Potter and Star Wars (though it’s definitely possible I missed some as a non-religious kid reading Narnia, which means if they WERE conversion tools, they weren’t very effective). Christianity has had a pretty big influence on western popular culture. I think some of this may be coming from what you know about the author, not what you know about the books, or my specific reference to a snowy cubicle decoration and a white costume, which we would have guessed as “Winter Wonderland” if my coworker hadn’t mentioned her theme.

            1. spock*

              You say your opinion is based off of your childhood memories of the books, so with all due respect, I think you’re not remembering them very well. The Narnia books are incredibly Christian. Just based off of the texts themselves, not anything CS Lewish said outside of it. This goes far beyond symbolism, at one point it’s heavily implied that Aslan is another side of Jesus – not a symbol, not a stand in, but literally Jesus. There’s discussions of Adam’s first wife Lilith. There’s some heavy-handed anti-Muslim sentiments. Humans from our world are referred to as “Sons of Adam” and “Daughters of Eve”. I also didn’t pick up on all of it as a kid but it’s definitely there. Without getting into “is the White Witch’s sleigh appropriate office decor”, it’s disingenuous to compare the Narnia books to Harry Potter or Star Wars.

              1. Overeducated*

                OK. I guess i missed some stuff as a child and i admit that, but i don’t appreciate being called disingenuous. It is a general childhood cultural reference for a lot of people who don’t know or remember those details, and it was also a movie.

                I’d also like to point out that the literal context of my comment WAS snowy, vaguely Narnia inspired decor in the office.

                1. spock*

                  I did not mean to call you disingenuous, my intention was to say the comparison wasn’t good. My wording was bad and I apologize for that.

            2. anon today and tomorrow*

              As someone not coming from a Christian background, as a child it was pretty obvious that Narnia was meant as a Christian allegory the same way His Dark Materials was meant to be the anti-Narnia and anti-Church. I was pretty uncomfortable having to read them in elementary/middle school because it was so obviously Christian, with some fantasy elements slapped on over it.

              The same can’t be said about things like Harry Potter or Star Wars. Sure, they may share tropes that show up in Christian works, but they’re not written exclusively as a religious allegory and their main characters are meant to be stand-ins for Christian religious icons.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        No lie, I did consider getting a menorah, but I am not Jewish in any way, shape, or form and don’t want to come across as appropriating.

        1. DaniCalifornia*

          I read a really good Fowl Language Comic (of all things) that showed a father explaining to his son why he was setting a menorah in their front window even though they weren’t Jewish. He told him he was doing it as a sign of support for their Jewish friends. Many people in the comments asked if this was showing appreciation or appropriation and if they could also do. I didn’t read all 10,000+ comments but some of the most replied ones were Jewish people saying as long as someone did it respectfully they wouldn’t mind. They also gave some instructions on how it should be placed and lighted.

          I know those few commenters do no speak for all Jewish people, and in an office this might come across differently because it would be in response to a cube decorating contest and many people might assume you are Jewish. Just throwing my 2 cents in there.

          1. Triplestep*

            The father would have been better off getting his family invited to a Passover Seder, or taking his son to a Shabbat Service, or doing any of the many things Jews do that are more important that lighting a Chanukah menorah. Chanukah is a minor holiday that has been blown out of proportion in the US due to its proximity to Christmas. I prefer when someone wishes me a Happy New Year during the High Holidays than when someone wishes me a Happy Chanukah in lieu of saying Merry Christmas. It shows they’ve taken the time to understand our differences. Not every religion has an important winter holiday – not sure what is “supportive” about pretending we do.

          2. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I am very uncomfortable– and a little offended– with non-Jews taking on Jewish “traditions” in the name of support. Chanukah is not a major holiday, for starters, and the rituals involved are religious. If you want to show me support, go to a service or attend dinner in someone’s home or just, you know, be kind to me. If a co-worker who is not Jewish put up an actual Chanukiah in her cube, I would be kind of creeped out, to be honest. If she put up a “Happy Chanukah” message in her cube, I wouldn’t find that nearly as weird.

          3. Ananas*

            A few years ago in my city, a house with a menorah in the window had the window broken. Shortly after, all the non-Jewish houses on that street were also displaying menorahs in solidarity.

            But that is a special case and the situation was well-understood, with local media coverage. I hear that some years later, some of non-Jewish homes still have menorahs in the windows.

            1. DaniCalifornia*

              The comic I saw was in response to the shooting in Pittsburgh. I know each individual will feel differently about it whether or not it’s appropriate.

              1. Triplestep*

                What the heck does a menorah have to do with the shooting in Pittsburgh?

                There were so many more appropriate ways to teach a kid to support people who are different than he is. Geez Louise! Way to mix things up, comic artist!

              2. Triplestep*

                What the heck does a menorah have to do with the shooting in Pittsburgh?

                There were so many more appropriate ways to teach a kid to support people who are different than he is. Geez Louise! Way to mix things up, comic artist!

        2. sunshyne84*

          Yea I wanted to do an all inclusive door design, but I think I will just go for a neutral winter holiday theme.

        3. Meredith Brooks*

          I hear all this. I’m not entirely sure why someone who wasn’t Jewish would want a menorah (unless it was super pretty — which some most definitely are.) In the end, I wouldn’t feel support when non-Jews put menorahs in their windows, I would just feel confused. I wouldn’t say I’d be offended by it, but I also wouldn’t necessarily know what to do with that information. That said, someone doing an all-out holiday themed display would make sense to include decorations from other religions. But, if we’re talking about just throwing some Jewish (or other religion) iconography into your (mostly) Christmas display as a gesture of support, I’d recommend doing something else.

        4. Ann O.*

          I can only speak for myself, but I would be annoyed by a non-Jewish co-worker putting up a menorah. It’s religious.

          However, I would feel very embraced by a non-Jewish co-worker putting up hella Hannukah decorations, Kwanzaa decorations, Diwali, Solstice, and any other winter holiday they could think of in a setting like this. I’d probably try to make you my best work friend.

        5. Jasnah*

          I would ask any non-Jews who are motivated to acknowledge Hanukkah, despite the absence of any known Jews around, to question their personal motives for doing so. Is the goal to learn about and acknowledge other major holidays around the world? In which case, Hanukkah is not a major holiday, so choosing just to acknowledge Hanukkah is like saying “Happy Jewish Christmas.” There are other major holidays like Chinese/Lunar New Year and Ramadan and Obon that you could learn about, though that would require more effort to learn about. Or is the goal to show everyone around you, who is so wrapped up in the joy of celebrating Xmas, how much more virtuous and worldly you are? In which case, that’s a pretty selfish reason to co-opt someone’s religious holiday just to put down someone else’s.

      4. froodle*

        I’m really hoping for some Krampus goodies in the office decoration mix this year. Seen a co-worker sporting a hairbow with him and another with a little pin badge (totally bought the hair bow myself after asking her where she got it) so I hope we get a couple of Krampus ornaments or something.

    4. JB*

      If no one has actually indicated this is a problem, you should just leave it alone. You will very definitely look like ‘That Guy’ no matter how well-intentioned. There will be lots of eye-rolling and resentment.

    5. persimmon*

      Eh, I think it’s fine, and am Jewish. I’ve been around ultra-Christmas decorators and although I will privately be laughing at them a bit, there’s something kind of fun to watch about people really going all out. To me, the line is whether anyone is being dragooned into participating when not into it (or even just awkwardly encouraged after refusing).

    6. Katicus*

      Just because you feel like you would be offended as a Jew or Muslim, doesnt mean others are. Don’t assume they are OR that they need you to speak up on their behalf.
      Stay out if it. It seems like this is mostly a ”You” problem and you dont like it.

    7. Girl from the North Country*

      As someone from one of the minority faiths you mentioned, *and speaking only for myself*, I would say let it go. I personally have never been offended by anything Christmasy unless it starts treading into “religious” territory (e.g. prayers, talking about Jesus-as-God as if it’s just a fact that everyone believes that, etc), and I interpret what you describe more as the cultural side of Christmas than the religious side. Plus my religion doesn’t even have any major holiday celebrations at this time of the year right now, so it’s not like I’m feeling excluded. Are there others from minority faiths that you could discreetly ask about this? Don’t assume they’re upset when they might not be. It’s actually more annoying when people get offended on my behalf without asking me first! LOL. But your heart is in the right place, and it’s nice to have allies nowadays.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        It’s actually more annoying when people get offended on my behalf without asking me first

        And that is precisely why I asked here! So I really appreciate your response.

        You are correct that it’s a lot of Santa and trees and presents and lights. I haven’t seen any specifically religious imagery.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      I’m not seeing a problem here. If people want to decorate their personal spaces in a way that expresses their culture, who cares? If the office culture is such that minorities don’t feel comfortable expressing themselves in the same way, that’s the real problem that needs to be addressed. But just hanging up non-religious Christmas decorations? Who cares?

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I don’t want to be a performative ally and act offended on behalf of minority religion colleagues if they don’t mind.

      This is why I would lean toward keeping quiet for now, especially because it’s your first holiday season here. Maybe more information would tilt you one way of the other for next year. If it comes up naturally in conversation with a manager, or with a non-Christian, maybe float it–I don’t think you can never say anything–but I’d worry about how frustrating it is to be in Group X and have “Group X complained so we can’t have the nice thing!” and hey, wait, no one actually in Group X was complaining! How come we’re getting blamed?

      If I were living overseas (which I have done) and everyone was decorating for holiday-I-don’t-celebrate, I would think “Hmm, pretty” and go on with my day. I think that’s how some–not all–non-Christians react to Christmas dribbling over all the flat surfaces here. If someone is insisting you have to have a Menorah on your desk and wear a Hanukkah ball sweater that plays “Dreidl dreidl”, that’s different from if your neighbors–at home or in cubeland–are doing those things.

    10. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      Just popping in to say hi, fellow Pittsburgher.

      I agree with all the above comments–it seems like the decorations are very secular in nature, and no one is prohibited from participating with, say, a Hannukah display. Or no display at all.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yo! At one point, I was going to attempt to organize an AAM meetup because I think there are a few of us in the area, but then life blew up.

    11. PB*

      The #1 rule of non-performative allyship is to center the person. In this case, you want to support people who don’t celebrate Christmas. From your post, it sounds like you haven’t heard that this is a problem from anyone who doesn’t celebrate. Before taking any action, I’d try asking around and see how people actually feel, rather than relating it to how you think you’d feel if you were in that situation. It doesn’t have to be a big deal. If these are people you’re friendly with, a casual, “Hey, these decorations are pretty overwhelming!” is a good start, and let the conversation flow from there. If you do learn that people are offended, then take that information and proceed accordingly. It also is reasonable to wait it out this year. You are still pretty new, and you’ll have a better sense of the lay of the land in a year.

    12. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      If you’re comfortable speaking with your manager about it, I’d go that route. It will carry a lot more weight than an anonymous note or complaint (but that’s a good option if you’re not able to talk with your manager safely).

      It’s often helpful for people of a dominant culture to call out oppressive practices; it takes the load off folks who are being harmed by it, and (unfortunately) sometimes a dominant culture voice can carry more weight. (“This doesn’t affect me, but I still think it’s wrong” can cut off a potential defensive response about “those people” asking for special treatment.)

    13. Overeducated*

      I think the line is different for everyone. From my perspective, personal decorations are fine and appreciate when people decorate in non-religious ways or ways that express non-Christian religious views; my workplace has a contest as well and I just don’t participate. However, I have an issue when a secular organization, especially a government entity, funds Christmas decorations. (No they’re not “holiday trees,” give me a break.) If work-sponsored Christmas decorations were happening at my workplace I’d probably consider leaving an anonymous suggestion and expecting nothing would happen.

      Maybe you could consider anonymously suggesting ways to make the contest more inclusive, e.g. by adding prize categories for “best winter decoration,” “best secular decoration,” “best pop culture/historically-themed decoration,” or prizes for different holidays so that people could win by going for Winter Wonderland, Star Wars, or Kwanzaa instead of Christmas? Just ideas.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Oh, I like that suggestion! I don’t know what kind of categories there are, so I think that maybe I should wait and see how things play out this year and then potentially bring it up next year.

        1. Overeducated*

          That could work…hope it is ok! My workplace just announced a *Christmas tree* decorating competition, clearly not even trying to fake multiculturalism, so I am officially irritated now too. Wish we had an anonymous suggestion box!

    14. kittymommy*

      Personally, I would go the suggestion bx route, making sure as to speak to how you think it is over the top and too much. I wouldn’t stray too far into how minority group(s)/person may feel, as that is not your voice in this instance. Pointing out how the optics (I know the phrase can be annoying, but sometime it works) could come across to visitors, customers/clients, outside agencies, and/or other staff could be helpful as well, but I wouldn’t make that the only or strongest argument.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        We don’t have visitors or customers/clients, etc. We do strictly behind the scenes work.

        1. GrinchyKitty*

          I was thinking along similar lines to kittymommy – you could anonymously suggest that the decorations have gotten a little over the top to the extent that they’re distracting you from your work so maybe time to scale back. Small displays can still be clever or artistic – a three-foot tree rather than six-foot, for example.

    15. cb*

      i’m of the opinion that christmas decorations like trees and wreaths and wrapping paper and whatnot are more secular seasonal decorations. i’m not christian and am not offended by twinkly lights and shiny decorations (unless they are tacky, and then i am offended because i’m a design snob.)

      i can’t speak for jewish people and muslims. but as an atheist i don’t consider traditional christmas decorations to be religious or inappropriate. if the office was filled with nativity scenes and jesus-centric decorations, i’d have a very different opinion. (which would be: fine for your house, you do you, but if it’s in my workplace, i’m going to say something about it.)

    16. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      If it’s opt-in, I would say that it’s only a problem if people are actually feeling badly about it. So, lots of others have thoughts here on how you might figure out if there’s someone that could use your allyship on your floor.

      But, like, there are lots of holidays across lots of cultures happening right now. You could personally do something that reflects several different holidays, as a way to show solidarity. But something like lights, which are a big part of the traditions of lots of holidays, could be a good option too.

      With stuff like this, I like to really examine what the problem is. In this case, I think it would be, is the “norm” for this activity so much Christmas that it might be having a chilling effect on people putting up non-Christmas decor? If so, that could be a problem worth raising, but the solution isn’t necessarily to put the kibosh on decor, but it could be making sure to highlight non-Christmas decorations in casual conversations (“Wow, so-and-so’s decorations are amazing, did you see?”) to build greater psychological safety and solidarity; or, perhaps being more vocal in diversity & inclusion conversations (“How do we have hundreds of employees on this floor and all our decorations are from Christian traditions?”).

    17. Alcestis*

      I think it’s important to stress that non religious people from Christian/culturally Christian families are likely going to have different feelings about this than many people from Jewish or Muslim backgrounds. Wreaths, trees, and Santa Claus may be “non-religious” enough not to offend an atheist from a Christian background, but they still can be somewhat alienating to a Jewish or Muslim person who doesn’t celebrate the holiday, whose family has never celebrated the holiday, and who is reminded more strongly than ever that they’re a small minority within a larger dominant culture.

      1. cb*

        not sure if this is in response to me, but the wording is similar enough that i figured i’d respond. (i said wreaths and trees didn’t seem religious to me but rather, seasonal, and i wasn’t offended by them as an atheist, as i might be offended by nativity scenes all over my workplace.)

        for the record, i’m an atheist from a very much NON-christian background. again, you may not have been responding to my comment but i figured it was worth noting.

        1. Alcestis*

          My comment was inspired by a bunch of comments in the thread. I didn’t direct it at anyone specifically because I don’t know individual commenters’ background, as you point out.

    18. EmployeeHotlineBling*

      I would say focus on the positives this season brings. As someone who isn’t celebratory, I always used December to throw myself into the office food drives, convincing participants of the tree decorating contest they could wrap canned goods in (easily removable) company branded paper and stack in a somewhat tree-like shape (they won, FYI), or asking for canned goods or donations to local food banks for “Secret Santa”.

    19. Thursday Next*

      It’s great that you’re throwing this question out for input! I’d say not to make a preemptive suggestion on other people’s behalf. If you know someone who finds the decorations uncomfortable but feels unable to speak up, that would be a different matter.

      FWIW I’m a Hindu married to a Jew. I will accept any and all well-intentioned good wishes, regardless of their (lack of) religious origin. (“Merry Christmas” is cool. “Have you accepted Christ as your savior, because if you haven’t, you’re going to hell”—actual thing people have said to me—is not.)

      2. CanadaTag*

        Atheist here – though I celebrate Christmas as a family holiday in part because my parents’ parents were Christian, and so it’s that….

        +10 to your last paragraph!

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m a Christian who snaps back at those “going to hell if you haven’t!” people with joy in my eyes.

        “Jesus doesn’t judge and only God chooses who goes to hell. Have a blessed day, sister/brother.”

        Note, I never say “have a blessed day” to anyone but these wackadoodle hater faces.

        1. anon today and tomorrow*

          There’s an employee at my local UPS store who always says “have a blessed day” and while I know he probably doesn’t mean anything by it, it makes me really, really uncomfortable. He’s from the South and we’re in the North, so I realize it’s probably a cultural difference, but it just leaves me feeling weird for awhile after. I tend to avoid picking up or dropping off packages if I see him there.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I would react the same way as you are. If I know someone is so outwardly faith spewing, I question their boundaries. Kind of like how we distance from someone we know will share their childbirth stories or their health issues. I’m comfortable with religions of all kinds, fascinated by them. But they’re personal AF

            I had to teach my beloved partner “bless your heart” isn’t actually a loving saying. He’s from a deeply religious family who would never snark. He drifted away (or he never would have met my OTT self of course) and I taught him a lot about the faithful who are nothing he’s ever seen before

          2. Joielle*

            There’s a woman who takes the same train as me most days who says it and I absolutely hate it. We’re not in the South, we’re in a big multicultural statistically-not-very-religious Northern city, and it just sounds so pointed. Like yeah, you’re the holiest one on this train, congrats.

    20. Arctic*

      I’d leave it alone this year. Next year around September or October you can leave a suggestion along the lines of “going into the Holiday season I think the office should be mindful of other cultures and how exclusionary the focus on Christmas can be.” So, the office will have an option to say “This year we’re not doing the decoration competition” if they so choose.
      Nothing you say in December is going to have any impact. They aren’t going to take down the decorations. They aren’t going to cancel any parties or rethink themes. All it would do is make people self-conscious about it (which isn’t a bad thing, sometimes, but counter-productive in this case.)

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Next year, maybe you can ask for a ‘Happy Holidays’ theme that includes Kwanzaa, New Years, and the Solstice.

        I don’t include Chanukah because it’s explicitly religious and pop culture hasn’t managed to separate out a secular aspect. Solstice and Christmas have weird double lives, with both religious and secular aspects. Many of the secular Christmas aspects (snow, lights, icicles, etc) can also be generic ‘winter’ decorations – we did snowflakes last year.

        1. Bluebell*

          Commenting as a Jew who decorates her home for Hanukkah (it was a goofy family tradition) I think I’d be miffed if the business happy holiday display excluded Chanukah. Yes it’s religious but in America people have taken on the custom of decorating and now it is kind of a thing for at least a percentage of American Jews. Sparkly blue and white stuff, giant dreidels, maybe a hanukkiyah. It’s fun but not strictly religious observance.

    21. matcha123*

      This question touches on a topic that I’ve found increasingly uncomfortable here, and that is people who are not Muslim or another minority (in North America) religion deciding to speak for members of those communities and in turn othering them.

      I think that if you do not like the decorations, you should write or speak to the reasons why.

      I think that many posters here are either some strain of Christian or Jewish and they are kind of assuming that the way they approach Christmas is a sentiment shared by others. I worry that the people doing this are going to make things even more uncomfortable for a person who may not really care all that much.

      I am writing this from the point of view of someone who has been othered by well-meaning white people, not for religious, but racial reasons, and it was very uncomfortable for me. In those instances I had to go and explain more things about myself than I wanted to, and the people who thought that they were championing a shy minority then had to kind of step back and realize that their initial thoughts had nothing to do with me.

      As to whether or not Muslims in your workplace feel uncomfortable, please realize that Islam has literally millions of followers. All of whom range from very conservative to very liberal. If you are going to speak for them, please make sure that you at least know some Muslims at your office who feel the same way.
      I grew up with a bunch of Muslim friends from Pakistan, Persia and other middle eastern countries. If I thought that some thing in my office might be offensive to them, I would bring it up with my office manager in a way that doesn’t make it seem like “the Muslims” are angry, and more about being inclusive of people.

      I hope that doesn’t sound like an attack. I am just kind of frustrated at posters assuming that Muslims, as a whole, would be incredibly offensive at something like a wine basket or Santa…

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I understand what you’re saying and that is part of the reason I asked the question here. I wanted to hear from people in those particular groups. And I definitely wasn’t thinking about saying “Jewish and Muslim people are offended”, I was thinking more along the lines of “the overwhelming Christmas decorations could make people who don’t celebrate uncomfortable”.

        Like I mentioned, we’re in Pittsburgh, where the mass synagogue shooting was a couple of months ago, so I think I am a bit more cognizant and aware of wanting to ensure I am being a good ally to my Jewish neighbors.

    22. Forkeater*

      I’m wondering about this as well. My office doesn’t decorate but this year we moved into a larger space with other offices (it was a move for everyone – new building) – and boy they sure do. I’m also at an organization that values diversity and whose clients are broadly international. I mean one of the offices in question is specifically in place to manage international engagements. I can’t believe the extent of the decorations here, it’s really quite a lot. We have a committee to deal with issues with our newly shared space that I’m thinking of mentioning it to but yeah I don’t want to be that person either.

      And for those who say Christmas is not a religious holiday, well, I’m a practicing Christian and I find that somewhat insensitive to my personal beliefs. (And yes I wish others happy holidays to try to be sensitive to their beliefs.)

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Are all the offices under your organization?

        And, yes, your last point is also a good one. While a lot of people do celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday, there plenty for whom the religious aspects are important and significant.

    24. Youth*

      FWIW, one of the co-owners of my company is a Jewish man who seems to be fairly devout, and the office is still decked out with all the trimmings of a traditional Christmas. And no, he doesn’t mention Hanukkah or other, more important Jewish holidays to staff (except for last year, when I wore a Hanukkah sweater to the holiday party [in honor of my dad’s Jewish heritage] and he complimented it).

      If I were you, I would wait until I’d been there longer and could gauge how people felt about the decorations. I don’t know if you want to make this A Thing your very first holiday there. But I understand if you feel strongly about speaking up!

    25. Former Retail Manager*

      My $0.02…..don’t be “That Guy” at least not with how new you are and without knowing if anyone in any of these minority populations is indeed offended. Maybe they really don’t care to decorate and think “Let the Christmas nuts have their Christmas contest!” or maybe they do care, but either way, I say, not your issue. Also, if your workplace wants more diversity, then maybe encourage the minority populations to decorate as well rather than encouraging others to “tone it down.” There is room for EVERONE to be over the top. (But I can totally see your point that they might not feel comfortable doing so, but if the company is really striving for diversity/inclusion, it’s their job to let these folks know that they want them to be comfortable and encourage them to participate if they want to.)

    26. Observer*

      I think something like “I’m not trying to speak for anyone, but I think that if I were Jewish, Muslim or any other religion that doesn’t celebrate, I’d find all of this a bit uncomfortable” is excellent phrasing. You don’t have to be part of group X, to understand that they might be made uncomfortable by something, or to call it out. In fact, we NEED people of the dominant group to call it out, as long as it’s being done in a manner that’s respectful to the group. And, I certainly think this is respectful.

      1. Hola!*

        Yes, this! I work at community organizations and I honestly just point blank ask what holidays are important in the community and which ones require some sensitivity.

        It varies! Some people are into the “holidays are for all!” And some very strict with people staying in their own lanes religion wise. Some are homogeneous and some are diverse.

        Sometimes just by asking you can make people reassess the situation. “Oh we’re Christian! Except half of us aren’t and hmm…”

    27. Dual Faith Household*

      I was raised by a Jewish father and a Catholic mother. We did both religions. As an adult, I’m more agnostic than anything. I don’t care what holiday people want to wish me. I’ll take all kind words and good wishes. Heck, say it in a language I don’t speak and I’ll take that, too!

      (sorry, posted this to the wrong thread initially)

    28. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I decorated with an Elf theme

      SANTA IS COMING. I KNOW HIM.

      If they’re breaking out a manager, then I’d start twitching even as a Christian.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I hit send and then caught it. Like an arrow to my chest.

          I’m a cotton headed ninny muggins!!

          Cookie decorating time!

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Clearly the answer here is to do a Frozen theme and blast the soundtrack all day long, Y/Y?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          If Disney Princess doesn’t do this…

          She better change her name NOW, no discussions.

          But for real being an adult. This is something at best should be mentioned in passing. Put that out there and see the general feeling.

          I’m usually careful to say “tis the season to celebrate whatever you celebrate ”

          IT’S FESTIVUS FOR THE REST OF US.

          I’ve got a lot of problems with you people.

    29. Not So NewReader*

      A rule of thumb that I have used often is, “If I have to ask the answer is probably no, don’t do it.” This is useful at work and at home.

      You have been there since May, so seven months you have been there. You know how you like to handle stuff at work. Do you usually want to take on a big change like this early on? If the answer is no, that is telling you something. Personally, I would not do anything major like this my first year. I would be true to myself though, in other words, if I had no interest in going all out with my cube then I would not do it. (I am a church going person, if I put up one or two things that would be a lot for me. This is who I am, though.)

      My thought is that they have been doing this for who knows how long. They have stronger ties to each other than I do with any of them. Because I am the newbie, I would leave it up to them to sort themselves out.

      While many of the comments here have a lot of merit, I think the fact that you have not even been there a full year weighs heaviest on deciding how I would proceed if it were me. I’d say nothing and just observe.

    30. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      You know, the great plus of living in the southern hemisphere (where the Holiday Season coincides with summer) is that we can ditch the Christmas trees, fake snow and all winter-y decoration, put a parasol, a chair and inflatable ball in the reception area and call it a day. Or claim that they don’t match our weather and don’t decorate at all.

    31. Seacalliope*

      I would say don’t speak on behalf of other people who may or may not be offended. I’m Jewish and I’m thoroughly exhausted by Christmas’s omnipresence in public spheres. But I don’t think there is benefit for speaking for others. Saying that you don’t think it is appropriate or inclusive is entirely true and it is fair to voice your opinion.

    32. State Worker Anon*

      Related to this thread, does any of this change if the workplace in question is part of the state government? We’ve got a Christmas tree up in our lobby, and while I don’t think we’re especially public-facing, it’s still state property and as such meant to represent all citizens of our state, it seems to me.

      I’ve gone a couple of rounds of inquiry on this before, and IIRC the basic answer I got seemed to boil down to “don’t make a fuss, it’s secular!” But it doesn’t feel secular to me, and judging by the comments to this thread, while there are plenty of people who do think this is perfectly fine, there are also plenty of people who… well, don’t. And every year I cringe a little bit when I see these decorations in our public space.

      I’m not religious, myself, so I’m not sure I have any claim to want equal representation for my holidays–I mean, my family is one of those that celebrates as secular Christmas because it’s family tradition, so I’m pretty well-represented, actually. But it seems to me it’s the principle of the thing: don’t we as a state agency have a heightened responsibility (morally, if nothing else) to make sure we’re not contributing to an attitude of unwelcome, however subtle?

      I’ve thought of approaching my boss to ask who’s in charge of doing the decoration–it might just be the admin took it upon herself to do it–but I haven’t figured out if it’s a battle I really ought to fight, and would welcome the commentariats’ thoughts.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It depends on your region. Government agencies in deep blue areas tend to have done away with that. The more conservative places keep the traditions going due to your general population/voters getting SO MAD about “the war on Christmas” crud.

      2. Ann O.*

        I’m pretty anti-Christmas, but a Christmas tree in a state workplace doesn’t bother me simply because the reality is that the majority of the US is Christian to some degree or another. So a small amount of Christmas decorations is fine with me–even better if there’s at least a token acknowledgment of other winter holidays.

        What bothers me is when it’s overwhelming.

    33. Holly*

      I want to preface by saying I am mildly distraught by all the comments saying “Christmas is secular.” Saying Christmas is “default” and “secular” is a great way to alienate minority groups and essentially saying they are not fully assimilated by not participating. It’s one thing to say “hey, you have a different religion and you don’t celebrate Christmas, that’s fine because it’s part of my religion and not yours” compared to “why aren’t you celebrating a secular American/Western holiday that everyone else is?”

      I personally think you can go either way – I wouldn’t end the decorations if people are really excited about it, it’s just some workplace fun, but maybe suggest anonymously that something is done to be more inclusive – try to strike a positive note and maybe make a recommendation for something that highlights other holidays as well if you feel like it might be alienating to someone who wouldn’t want to speak up.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        The fact is that marginalised people often aren’t comfortable speaking up, they’re often scared of creating waves for good reason, backlash is filthy. Which is why I would just send out a casual vibe to everyone that I’ll be their voice if the nudge me. The key is that they have to at least be comfortable with me.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          yes, this. And I don’t want to ask any of the other people I know aren’t Christian, because of the ‘othering’ / ‘white savior’ vibe that may give.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Omg and the “assumption” of someone’s faith that can happen is extra awkward. It seems so White Knight nonsense, that’s for sure.

            I just make sure everyone knows “I’m cool with changes and never set in my ways…” if you keep dialog open, less people feel like they can’t voice their dislike for the “tradition” crud.

    35. Jules the 3rd*

      Except for the suggestion box, this is my office, and bleah. It’s a question that has come up multiple times, with Christian / agnostics usually going with ‘it’s a Secular Holiday!’ and non-Christians splitting about half between ‘I feel so ignored / token / other’d’ and ‘it’s a Secular Holiday!’.

      I actually persuaded the people in charge of ours to limit it to one tree, and ‘holiday’ greetings and decorations. I’d probably put up something Kwanzaa-themed if I wanted to push it.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        So I didn’t even get into the fact that we are having like 3 or 4 ‘holiday’ luncheons over the next few weeks.

    36. Midlife Tattoos*

      My (extremely large) company has gone the route of celebrating other religious holidays throughout the year so that everyone feels included at one point or another. For example, we celebrated Diwali, and had a potluck and folks wore traditional dress. It was so much fun! I think if more attention is paid to other religious holidays, instead of trying to tamp down the craziness that is Christmas, you give every non-Christian the same opportunity to express and celebrate.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        My only caution that this route needs to be done when you can have the input of those who are part of the cultures you’re celebrating! Nothing is worse than someone hijacking a person’s holiday and bastardizing it because they just did a quick Google search.

        I’m certain your company is very tasteful and educated but some people…you know what I mean, I’m sure :)

    37. Half-Caf Latte*

      Was having a similar dilemma earlier. An admin (in a department totally separate from mine), send out a division-wide email that said :

      It’s that wonderful time of year again, “The Holiday Season”. While this time is exciting for some families, others do not have that same experience.. The [department name] is once again having a “Holiday” drive….
      With clip art trees, candy canes, and Santa. Quotes are hers, not mine. The follow up email said ‘can you believe Christmas is almost here.’

      I celebrate Christmas, but I was very much like, dude, putting holiday in quotes like that totally reads like you’re really meaning to say Christmas, but someone MADE you be politically correct and this is your reluctant compliance. I was definitely put off, and not just by the use of clip art in 2018.

      However, this employee has more tenure than I, although my position is a leadership one. I don’t have any connection to her manager, and I’m not sure I want to be the new person who makes this A THING.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’ll drink your clip art hating tears for dinner!!!!!!

        But otherwise ew to this shenanigans. Leave my clip art alone tho.

    38. Anon Anon Anon*

      I think there’s a different way to frame this than complaining on other people’s behalf. You could just object to the idea of it – you’re a Catholic (or raised Catholic) who believes in religious inclusion at work, and as such, you have concerns about what’s happening here. That’s completely reasonable and valid. You could speak openly about that viewpoint and put your name on it. Then other people could speak for themselves or bring up other points if they want to.

    39. Nacho*

      As a Jew, I’ve always thought inclusion should involve celebrating every religion’s high holidays, rather than cutting back on celebrating the one that seems to be celebrated by default. I’d feel a lot happier if my company gave shout outs to Rosh Hashanah and Eid Al-Fitr than I would if they suddenly cut back on the Christmas festivities.

    40. SechsKatzen*

      I can see a suggestion box working for next year but if people have already put them up, I don’t think it will actually change what has already happened. If there are non-Christian or non-Christmas celebrating co-workers who you are comfortable enough having an actual discussion about it, that’s probably the best way to get a sense of how at least some people may feel. If it’s something that has occurred for awhile, it may ultimately not be something easily changed.

      Full disclosure, I have my own business with employees, I’m in Pittsburgh as well but still have up my Christmas decorations throughout my office and will leave them up until after January 7th (Orthodox Christmas). Because Orthodox Christmas falls on a Monday this year, it means they’ll stay up at least until that weekend. Nobody has asked me to stop putting up decorations and if that did happen, I’d probably adjust with the timing of them but not stop altogether.

  2. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

    Ethics Issue:
    Our organization competes for funding from a federal agency.
    We have a consultant who implies he has a connection to a key decision-maker for the relevant program. This decision-maker has also spoken to my supervisor in public, going out of the way (twice, without prompting) to say that if we continue to use this consultant, the organization will be successful in getting funding from the federal agency.

    Best case scenario, the federal official was making small talk (though it happened more than once) and used poor judgment. Worst case, there’s something very shady happening behind the scenes. Either way, the federal official’s endorsement is unethical and actually illegal (there are very strict rules about such things).

    I’ve already alerted the director of the federal bureau to this issue, who thanked me for the notice and indicated that it is being addressed internally. Separately, I’m not sure if I should address this with my supervisor, who hires this consultant. She is the one who is making this decision and is #2 in the org. My supervisor has said more than once that she continues to use this consultant in large part because she believes he has an “in” with the federal official. (We’ve discussed it multiple times because the consultant does a lot of work that I otherwise would do, and as a result I have little substantive work.)

    My work gripes aside, do I need to address the ethics of this situation with my supervisor directly or just let things play out with the federal bureau? A coworker already mentioned to my supervisor that the official’s comments seemed corrupt, but she didn’t respond to the comment and reiterated that she believed this consultant receives information not generally available to the public that will be beneficial to the organization.

    I can provide more details, but I’m trying not to write a book here. Just curious if I owe my supervisor a more direct discussion or even notice that I notified the federal bureau of the official’s actions (which would probably result in my dismissal, despite state whistleblower protections). I do not have a good rapport with my supervisor, in large part because of this and other management issues, on top of feeling misled into the position, which I have written about before. I have a good rapport with the president, but he may know already and be backing this as well.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I probably wouldn’t say anything to your supervisor directly since it sounds like she may be complicit if there is unethical behavior occurring.

      1. Observer*

        I agree that not saying anything to the direct supervisor makes sense. I think there is little doubt that the supervisor is absolutely complicit.

        1. Psyche*

          Yep. She knows it is unethical. She doesn’t care. Speaking up will only put a target on your back.

    3. JB*

      “…or even notice that I notified the federal bureau of the official’s actions (which would probably result in my dismissal, despite state whistleblower protections)”

      YEP. You did your part, now it’s time to sit back and watch. You don’t ‘owe’ them anything, and anything you do to draw attention to yourself just increases the risk.

      1. Observer*

        I disagree. If you are an employee, you owe a duty of care to your employer. They owe nothing to the supervisor, who has been put on notice that this is a problem. But they DO owe it to the organization as a whole to flag this with someone higher up or an existing ethics line, if such exists.

    5. LKW*

      Your supervisor should be completely aware that the behavior is not only unethical but illegal and there are serious repercussions. If I thought the person was uninformed, I might say something but given your tense relationship I would say nothing.

      You did the right thing in bringing it to the higher ups. At this point, if your president does nothing, then I would consider whistle blowing. Until then, assume that an investigation is underway and the wheels are slowly turning.

      1. President Porpoise*

        Um, but maybe make sure you have any emails/documents showing that you did blow the whistle in a place that can’t be accessed by your org. This sounds shady as crap, and I actually would maybe consider talking to a lawyer about it – and certainly not talking to your supervisor.

    6. lazuli*

      I wouldn’t say anything, given that you addressed if officially, that you know she’s already been told by a coworker that that statements are a problem, and that you’re worried about retaliation.

    7. fposte*

      I don’t see an upside to raising the issue with your supervisor.

      (Is this IMLS? Then the consultant is full of crap and the supervisor has bought it. That’s not how their funding works.)

      1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

        It’s not IMLS, however, I also initially believed that my supervisor was putting way too much faith in this connection. It was ironic in a way. The consultant may have asked this federal official to put in a good word, not because he actually has any ability to change the outcome, but because this organization pays this consultant more than the president of the org to essentially deliver something he has little control over. But the second time it happened, I couldn’t dismiss the possibility of something more going on.

        1. Steve*

          I provide advice on which projects my organisation should fund. Based on my experience in reading proposals, it is clear that some better understand the process and are therefore much more likely to be funded (as one example, someone is a former employee so they understand our requirements). Companies are known to hire former employees (often retired) to provide guidance on applications.

          The difference is that we do it all openly. We provide feedback to those who request it, and those who listen are more likely to be successful in future. Former employees have a time period before they can apply, and they can’t be too close to someone who is doing the reviews.

          Your situation sounds quite different, and I agree that telling someone high up and no one else is best. And, as mentioned somewhere else, if needed you should keep copies of all relevant emails somewhere other than work.

    8. Coder von Frankenstein*

      I am neither lawyer nor ethicist, but the way I see it, you have done what you were ethically obligated to do. You have flagged the issue with the appropriate authority, and it is being investigated. The whistle is officially blown.

      Normally I would say to give your supervisor a heads-up, just as a courtesy. But if you think there’s a good chance she will retaliate, she has forfeited any right to such courtesies. Bad managers reap the consequences of their behavior, and this is one of the ways it happens. (And if you think she is herself involved in criminal activity, then don’t say a word, except maybe to a lawyer. I’m not saying I think you’re in danger of prosecution, but a lawyer might offer guidance on how to minimize the impact on you if the shit comes down on your employer.)

      And here’s hoping you find a new job ASAP.

    9. Observer*

      I don’t think you owe your supervisor anything at this point. You DO, in my opinion, owe your organization a heads up, though. In fact, your FIRST step should have been to figure out who in your organization to bring it to.

      Is there an ethics hotline? A higher up who knows who you are and your work? If yes, those are the best places to address this. If not, send an email (and bcc your personal email so you have a paper trail for yourself) stating that the consultant is saying these things, that the decision maker has made these problematic statements and that your supervisor has stated that she uses the consultant because the consultant appears to have this connection.

      Telling them that you’ve already alerted the Federal Agency is a tricky question. It could go very badly for you, to be honest. And although I would normally have no sympathy for the organization, I think that they would have a legitimate beef with your failure to even try to use internal processes to fix the problem. The only exception here is if you’ve seen a history of the organization not handling ethics issues appropriately.

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        “In fact, your FIRST step should have been to figure out who in your organization to bring it to… I think that they would have a legitimate beef with your failure to even try to use internal processes to fix the problem.”

        If someone in the federal bureau has a corrupt arrangement with a contractor, how could that possibly be fixed by the internal processes of a third party that works with that contractor?

        1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

          Yeah, I viewed this as two issues. As a member of this industry, I felt that the agency needed to nip this in the bud. As an employee of this company, I haven’t yet determined what to do, especially since it’s a smaller organization and I already work with senior leadership.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Let the Feds take it from here. Do not talk to your supervisor or anyone. Treat this as if you are seeing the tip of an iceberg. It could be nothing or it could be something much larger. Go with caution until you know for certain things have changed. I would not even talk about this where there was a chance I could be overheard.

    11. Public Sector Manager*

      I think you’ve done the ethical thing by reporting this to the federal bureau and you don’t owe any sort of explanation to the supervisor or your company’s president.

      The supervisor has ignored discussions about this issue in the past, and since the supervisor isn’t doing a good job (e.g. misleading you on the position and your other concerns on management issues), nothing good with come from notifying the supervisor. The supervisor could have notified the federal bureau too, but didn’t.

      As for notifying the president of your company, I think you’re not obligated to do that. Since your supervisor is #2 in the organization, it’s highly likely the president knows of your supervisor’s conduct. If the president doesn’t know, then the question is whether the president is generally a good leader. But this president has allowed a misrepresentation about your position and other management issues to occur. If the supervisor is generally that bad, then the president isn’t doing their job because the supervisor is still there.

      It sounds stressful to work in that environment. Best of luck to you!

    12. Free Meerkats*

      If your organization has a method in place to report this anonymously, report it that way. Otherwise, sit back quietly and say nothing to your organization. And go through your computer, chats, and emails and make sure any work devices are scrubbed as clean as possible.

  3. Dwindling Health Care*

    Any advice on pushing back on a sudden change to health care benefits?

    The year started with the executives promising not to reduce our health benefits and stated protecting our health benefits as the reason for buying out a couple members of the board. All year we’ve heard how this was our best year ever in profits. Then last week, we found our health benefits were being drastically reduced. The C-level executives don’t understand why we are upset.

    Old Plan: Fantastic. All premiums fully covered, no deductible, and small copays.

    New Plan: Employees contribute to premiums, high copays, high deductibles.

    I get that the old plan is highly unusual, but it also has been clear that this was part of our compensation so our salaries are lower due to this. The company does not give COL raises and even merit-based raises are lower than the annual COL increase. This is effectively a giant pay cut. We’d understand the need to contribute towards the premiums if (1) the coverage wasn’t also being cut and (2) this had been brought up earlier in the year so we could budget accordingly. Essentially we’re paying a lot more money for a significantly less benefits. We’ve gone from top tier coverage to minimal coverage.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I work in health care. Unfortunately, your employer is at the mercy of the insurers and may not have much of a choice. It’s too late to change anything for 2019. They are locked into a contract already.

      1. Natalie*

        It’s absolutely the employer’s choice whether the employees have to contribute to premiums, and they could offer a Health Reimbursement Arrangement to cover some of the extre costs of copays and so forth.

        1. Yorick*

          Sure, but is the amount they’re paying toward premiums similar to before? Maybe the insurance company increased the premiums and now the employer is having the employees cover some of it.

          1. Natalie*

            No idea, but that’s beside my point. Even if they cannot change the benefit plan at this point, they still have a choice in how they mitigate the increased costs, given that they “promis[ed] not to reduce our health benefits and stated protecting our health benefits as the reason for buying out a couple members of the board” and are having their best year ever. The insurer does not make compensation decisions for the company.

            If, for some reason, their company premiums rose so astronomically that they had to reevaluate, then at a minimum they should explain that.

            1. blackcat*

              Yep. My old employer offered a relatively high deductible plan, but self-insured for the amount of the deductible. You brought your EOB to someone in HR and funds magically appeared in your bank account to cover the amount, generally before the bill even arrived.
              My employer did the math and discovered that they’d save money even if they had to pay the entire deductible for 80% of the employees.
              There are a variety of solutions for this type of situation.

            2. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

              Yes, this. People can understand that health plan costs increase and that companies will only take on so much of that themselves. The problem is when your C-suite promises over and over again that it won’t do something, and then they just do it without any reason better than “our costs increased,” which is the #1 thing they should have predicted would happen well before they made any such promises. If their only reason is “health care prices went up” then they are far too dumb to be executives tbh

            3. nonymous*

              usually what I see in the premium price sheet is how much my employer pays and how much my portion is, for both the current year and the new enrollment period. I would give a side eye to employers that increase my side at a greater percentage than my own, but it’s also possible that other compensation increases – e.g. cash bonuses or stock incentives could make up for it.

              Having said that, a employer-subsidized HSA would go a long way to making those high deductible plans an affordable option for many. My experience at several orgs now is that for basically healthy people it’s actually cheaper because the HSA pays for 100% of incidental care including otc supplies for first aid or sports medicine self-care but you still get the benefit of insurance pricing for urgent care visits and scripts.

              The big issue is how those cheaper plans cover complex medical treatment. A family member had a recent experience where the review process essentially negated an avenue of treatment and a friend just shared how her father was denied a specific treatment plan due to terminal diagnosis even though his medical team said it would have palliative benefits.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Arrrrrgh HRA nightmares. Nobody here likes it, the extra hoop plus they are hard to convey to many :(

        3. New Job So Much Better*

          Exactly. My old employer switched to a much cheaper plan my last year there, but gave each of us a type of savings account with thousands of dollars to cover our costs under the new plan. It made our costs less painful and somehow the company still saved money.

      2. Dwindling Health Care*

        Our company is self-insured, so the insurance company is only used to handle the administration of the plan. Our old excellent health care package was used as the reason for skimping on other benefits like 401k matching and competitive sick/vacation days.

    2. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      It seems like you have a very clear view of what the issues with this are and can articulate them well. Perhaps start with your supervisor or send a note to HR saying what you’ve said here. These types of decisions aren’t easily undone, but if you get enough people giving feedback, they may reconsider.

    3. irene adler*

      Wait- C-level execs don’t understand why you are upset at the reduced compensation via the health plan change?
      Or they don’t want to understand the reason why?
      Don’t know that you can push back on such a change except by markedly increasing the turnover rate.

      FYI: we got our health coverage ‘adjusted’ for 2018. Spouses and dependents will no longer be covered. And management carries on like it’s no big deal.

      1. JB*

        “And management carries on like it’s no big deal.”

        Dollars out of your pocket. If they can’t get it through their skulls that employees care about their compensation, it’s time to look for an employer who does.

        FWIW, they’re being dishonest. They know why you are mad, they just don’t want to acknowledge the problem.

      2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        I have not heard of not covering dependents yet! You mean, like kicking employees’ children off medical insurance? What are the kids supposed to do, go out and find a job with benefits? How can this be no big deal to anyone, this is outrageous.

        2. Natalie*

          I believe the ACA requires company plans to let you add dependents, but doesn’t require them to pay any portion of the premium.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Many states offer plans for kids not covered by their parents insurance.

          It’s normal to only pay employees premiums. The employee can opt to pay a huge monster amount. I’m taking hundreds of bucks a month.

    4. Four lights*

      I think it’s worth bringing up, possibly with a group. They may not be able to change the coverage. You could say something like, “This is a huge change to our health plan. We understand why it may have been necessary, but this essentially is a X% pay cut. Is there any possibility of adjusting our salaries to reflect that?”

      1. Natalie*

        I think it might go over better to ask them to cover more of the ensuing health expenses* rather than increase salaries, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, health care contributions are generally tax free for both employee and employer, so an equivalent dollar amount of health care contributions will be cheaper for the employer than a salary increase. It also might seem more “fair” to the employer because it won’t result in more take home pay for the employee that doesn’t have many health care expenses. And it may feel less permanent, if for example they negotiate for a better plan next year, it’s probably easier to walk back covering 100% of premiums than it is to reduce people’s salaries. (Of course that last one is a double-edged sword, they could change nothing about the health plan but reduce their contribution in future years, when people have forgotten about the awesome health plan you used to have.)

        * In addition to covering 100% of the premiums, the employer can also fund FSAs/HSAs to cover the increased cost of copays and deductibles.

      2. The sky is falling*

        Same thing happened in my job a few years back. Employees share of retirement and a large part of employees share of health care was paid by employer and the actual cash salary was lower than industry average as a result. But it felt like a pretty fair compensation package. Even though the company was doing great, I guess the shareholders wanted more money because they switched the costs back to the employees but did not raise salaries – in fact froze them over the next few years, basically reducing everyone’s pay by about 15% – 20%. Unsurprisingly those who could flee this company did quickly.

      3. Four lights*

        And if this is a high deductible plan, try to find out how much (or if) they will contribute to each employee’s HSA.

    5. Schnoodle HR*

      So…hopefully they picked the best plan they could with whatever budget they’re working on. From their side, they could have very well been looking at 50% increases. You had a very unusually great plan. You say now you have premium and higher copays/deductible. What are those? Because I’m betting that though it is an increase from what you had before, you probably still have an awesome plan but in comparison it looks bad. For instance, I had one employer where the best rates we really could get ended up being a PPO (so not a HDHP if you know what I”m talking about otherwise ignore) with a $4,000 individual copay. The premium for individual coverage? Close to $40 a WEEK. I forget the copays but I think they were $35.

      I know people who complain of a $500 deductible and a $20 copay. Keep it in perspective of insurance as a whole not just the ones you know of.

      I know you are upset about it, but honestly complaining about it to HR or the C-Suite will make you look bad. They know it’s a tough pill to swallow, but I’m betting they are paying even more on their end than before themselves.

      Of course, you mentioned a change of board so maybe it did go the evil direction and they’re being cheap. I’m assuming the good in people which could be way off.

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        When you’re talking about C-level execs, I do not assume good in people. I do not assume evil, either, but C-level folks often have a lot of incentives to screw over their employees, and they are often insulated from feeling the consequences. By the time the chickens come home to roost, they’re on to a new job at some other company.

        DHC could get together a group of people affected by the change and bring their concerns to the brass. But I would operate on the assumption that doing so will not improve matters and this is the new normal at this company, and it’s time to start job-hunting.

    6. blackcat*

      I think this is a vote with your feet situation, unfortunately. Not because they changed the coverage, but because they are totally clueless and not offering other solutions. I suspect this will bleed over into other issues–once an org goes the penny-wise, pound foolish route, they don’t often turn around.

    7. Hiring Mgr*

      I’m sure the C-levels understand exactly why you’re upset…They’re probably just acting that way to suppress their guilt and hope you’ll stop nagging them about it (obviously this is speculation but isn’t that often what happens in these instances?)

      1. NW Mossy*

        They can absolutely anticipate this type of a reaction, and they know that their employees can do math and will notice the change in their take-home pay.

        What they did was decide to move forward in spite of the likely backlash, because while the backlash sucks, it doesn’t suck as bad as the alternative in their eyes.

    8. Snack Management*

      Echoing what some other said – you may not be able to change the plan as it’s set for the next year (particularly this time of year) but you can speak up about how it feels as an employee and get more information. In my experience (maybe it’s too rosy), likely what happened is the folks at the top who were making promises intended to keep those but the premium renewal came back with too high of an increase to keep the current plan. I’ve been dealing with this for a few years now (as an executive who is in charge of the health care decisions at my company) – the decisions were not done in a vacuum without serious consideration to employees but the first year we made the change, I didn’t communicate the hows and whys as effectively as was needed (I made the mistake of saying “cost savings” when the reality was “we don’t have the money to keep this plan”).
      What I would recommend is for you to ask for transparency on the process to start – why did they make promises and then the plan changed? Did the renewal come back astronomical? Is your usage rate high in the plan? From what you presented, it seems shady that they say great profits this year, cut your coverage AND require the contributions. They should have an explanation.

      1. nonymous*

        I’d add that it seems in many large orgs that the goals of meeting shareholder expectations for balance sheet and ethically compensating the staff seem to operate in highly siloed environments. So the healthcare team can’t just say insurance premiums are 2x anticipated, it’s okay to reflect that on the profit-loss statement.

        Having said that, if the org chooses to pass basic costs to staff there should be some way to partake of profits. Stock options are one possibility.

    9. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      My current employer had a plan like that. It was put into place when the company was first started ten or so years ago, ie, before my time. There was a small deductible and small copays, but no premium. Several mergers and leadership changes later, we are all sitting around waiting for the axe to drop. We can all tell that the new leadership would love for the fantastic plan to go away, but are fully aware of what would happen if they were to suddenly pull it. We’re losing a lot of people as it is, and the ones that stay, are staying in a large part for this benefit. So far they’ve been chipping away at it – adding a “buy-in option” with a low premium and increasing the deductibles and copays on the “free” option; slowly increasing the deductibles and premiums on the “buy-in” option; and last I heard, the free option is not free anymore. I have no doubt that one day they’ll get tired of trying to remove it in small increments and do away with it altogether like your company did. When that happens, I’ll read it as “okay, it’s been fun, time to leave”. I really do not see any other option for your company’s employees, either. I don’t believe you can push back and get results. I’m not buying it though, that the execs do not understand why you are upset. They may act like they don’t, because somehow it seems like a good idea to them to pretend that nothing happened.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The change in benefits is a sick truth about healthcare right now and costs involved.

      However it’s scummy AF to boast of record profits and change to splitting up the premiums. That’s bad news and leaving is the only thing that will protect your interests.

      I started reading and started worrying you were a coworker. We had drama because of much smaller tweaks to our plan. 2016 had 25% increases. We were able to stabilize this year by changing a couple things.

      But when we save money and boast of profits, we have profit sharing. So it’s less of a disaster than a scummy company without COLAs even. Ick.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Show them the numbers for old plan vs new plan.
      Write it all out so they can see how last year you were earning 42k* per year and now this year you will be taking home 35k per year. Explain to them that they can plan on losing people over this.

      (*I made up random numbers as an example.)
      It sounds to me like they were not paying attention to increased health insurance costs and they just became aware of how much the company was paying. They waited too long to begin to address the situation. I think one of the ways you can actually get them to listen to you is if you acknowledge that paying for health insurance is difficult for them also.
      I am not optimistic here, but you can try.

    12. Sybil Carpenter*

      May I please piggy-back on this topic? I have a similar issue with a sudden change in my company’s group benefits. We recently received a company wide email saying that our premiums would be going up (a max of $30) because the deductions will now be calculated based on our salaries. I’ve never heard of this manner of calculating insurance deductions.

      I’ve been trying to figure out why our premiums are already so high — I pay just over $200 per month for my (admittedly excellent) health plan and extended benefits — when my employer says they pay 50%. Is it normal for health benefits to cost a total of over $400/month including employer and employee contributions? (Canadian for reference)

      The benefits are great but I just want to understand why it is so expensive (and why no one at my company can seem to explain this to me without shrugging and directing me to someone else).

      1. blackcat*

        5 years ago, my very excellent health insurance cost a total of 9k/year, 1.5k of which was covered by employees.

        This will vary significantly based on location (different states have really different rates), but yes, 400 per month is totally reasonable. It is, in fact, quite cheap. $1000/month is not atypical

      2. Snack Management*

        I’m not in Canada but for US plans, $400+/mo for individual coverage for an excellent health plan sounds like a good deal overall. If that includes extended benefits, then even more of a great deal. But healthcare in the US is in a …. pickle so probably not comparable. What are the extended benefits? Some benefits such as disability coverage are based on salary – perhaps that’s what is increased? Again, not in Canada so maybe this is totally unhelpful.

        1. Sybil Carpenter*

          The extended benefits include things like massage, acupuncture, physio, etc. And life insurance and disability are included in the coverage, too. It’s definitely great coverage I’m just wondering why I’m paying more than double what I paid at my previous employer for nearly identical coverage and whenever I ask about it, I get shooed away. I suspect that my employer is not making any contributions, despite claiming they pay for 50% coverage, but the lack of transparency and poor communication of policies is a whole other problem :P

          1. RussianInTexas*

            I believe in the US the employer must actually provide the breakdown of how much they pay, for the taxes filings (thanks, Obama).

            1. Perse's Mom*

              Yep, because it’s a deduction for them as well. I know they have to issue a 1095-C if your insurance is through your employer, which includes the cost of self-only minimum essential coverage.

        2. Anon For Always*

          I agree. Health insurance premiums for me were $990 a month (I paid $250 of that a month of that). It’s been insane. We’ve seen our premiums double in the last couple of years.

      3. RussianInTexas*

        $400/month total in medical premium is not only not too expensive, but is on the cheaper side, unfortunately.
        At my old company, the total was almost $600/single coverage (I paid only 1/6 of it in premium), and it was a large employer that could get a good rate. The coverage was good though.
        At my current employer, I don’t know how much they pay, I pay $120 per month. But the company does not subsidize the family/children plan, meaning that even though they offer coverage, the full brunt of the premium falls on the employee. The “family” coverage is $540/per period – per 2 weeks. About $1080 per month.

        1. Sybil Carpenter*

          Hmm, interesting. Thank you for your responses! I am just shocked because my previous company offered almost identical group coverage and my monthly deductions were around $80 for both me and my spouse. My coworkers agree that $200/month seems outrageously expensive in comparison to other Canadian companies but I suppose it’s all relative.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            I don’t think we can compare US and Canadian prices and premiums since we have such vastly different systems.
            So it’s possible $200 is outrageous for Canada, I can’t really tell.
            For the US it’s not particularly expensive. Not cheap, but not unheard of.

      4. Lurky McLurkerson*

        You really can’t compare to American costs, because this is JUST for the extended, dental, prescriptions, etc. and the basics are covered through the province. So ignore the Americans in the thread :)

        That said, I looked mine up. Mine covers me and spouse, very good coverage though a few things could improve (mental health professionals, for example). I pay 0, my employer pays around 280, then for life and AD&D we each pay about 20 (I’m young so it’s cheap), disability is separate and I don’t pay but I don’t have the numbers. We are self insured for the medical/dental though, the insurance company just does the administration for it. My spouse’s employer pays the MSP (BC health care premium, currently 75 for a family), so mine does not. So 400 total seems a bit high but not obscene.

        I think you should be able to see the breakdown of how much you pay and how much they pay. I don’t know if there are laws about that, but it should be transparent.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      “Essentially we’re paying a lot more money for a significantly less benefits.”

      Welcome to the horrible state of healthcare in the United States.
      And even if companies wanted to offer something better, oftentimes they can’t due to size. Also, a lot of this varies by state you live in and what the healthcare lobbyists managed to control in your state and w/your state representatives. Worse, all of use employees are just supposed to shut up and take it and be glad we even have jobs.

    14. Aimee*

      My best advice is to ask for a salary increase to cover your expanded cost of coverage. Yes, you had a VERY rare plan if you had no payroll deductions or deductibles – it’s hugely expensive for employers to have this level of plans (I’m coming from many years of HR background), but making such a dramatic increase without talking to employees about it first (they could have solicited employee feedback to know what is/isn’t important to help them when negotiating a new benefits plan for the coming year) is seriously tacky…but sadly, also not surprising. Since the world of work and benefits is a subjective one, what do you mean by “High deductible”? The average I have seen is $1500-2500 per person (ours just went up to $3500), where certain things like annual physicals, etc., aren’t included in the deductible and then of course it depends if you are in/out of network… this is where making sure you are signed up for a flexible spending account (FSA), if they have one, can help at least a wee bit.

      PS – My husband and I relocated to a smaller town where NONE of the four job offers he received provided any contribution towards spouse or dependent coverage, meaning we (I’m a sole proprietor and there are now ZERO comparable ACA plans available here after congress did their best to trash the ACA…two years ago there were double-digit number of options) have to pay $650/mo out of his benefits to make sure I get coverage. The more people I talk to, the more it sounds like employers are doing this to cut costs. Oy.

  4. Emma*

    Adjusting to my new job & schedule (we have a compressed workweek) has been harder than I expected! I find myself getting really worried that I’m going to make a mistake or “get in trouble” (which is kind of a silly thing for a grownup to worry about, and probably a holdover from my previous job where I couldn’t ever do anything right). I also moved right when I started my new job so it’s all just been…a lot.

    1. BeanCat*

      Solidarity! I started a new job this year and have those same fears because nothing I ever did in the job before this was good enough. Something I’ve started doing is imagining Worst/Best/Most Likely scenarios to try and calm myself down. Making a plan for the worst, hoping for the best, but being well aware it’ll probably be somewhere in the middle has helped me.

      Example: I accidentally send the wrong form to someone.
      Worst Case: I am fired. BeanCat cannot make mistakes and must immediately be let go.
      Best Case: Somehow the document was actually what they needed or it was useful to them somehow.
      Most Likely: They’ll just tell me I sent the wrong form and to please send me the correct one.

      Hang in there! We’ve actually recently moved and will have to move again soon, so you’re not doing this sort of thing alone! :)

    2. Girl from the North Country*

      You’re not alone! I felt the exact same way when I started my new job. My previous job was torture and my boss was a micromanaging dictator, so it was really hard to adjust to “normal” people again and realize that I’m not going to get torn to shreds for making a minor mistake. But if your struggle is more with the work itself than the anxiety of adjusting to a new place, just make sure you’re asking lots of questions and seeking help when you need it. The real mistake you would be making is not speaking up when you aren’t learning the work!

    3. LALAs*

      Take a deep breath. You’ve got a lot going on. I assume you haven’t been “talked to” about any issues at work yet since you didn’t mention it. Take the time to sit down and list all of your responsibilities. Daily/Weekly/Monthly/Quarterly whatever makes sense for your position. Keep it handy. Refer back to it to make sure nothing is falling through the cracks.

      And, I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you will make a mistake. Probably more than one. Of course, you will be diligent and try to catch those mistakes before they become a problem but they will happen. When they do, own it – don’t try to hide it, do what you can to fix it or bring it to the people who can fix it and talk to your boss about how you are ensuring that it won’t happen again. Allow yourself to be human and congrats on the new gig.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      YOU ARE FINE. Well, I’m sure you are fine, let’s put it that way. :) There’s a lot of adjustment. I went from a job like your old one to a much less toxic new one and it took almost a year to recalibrate.

      Here’s the thing: you’ll make mistakes. Everyone does. And most of the time, it’s ok, everyone does it, and very few things are un-fixable. You are new. If they expect everything to be perfect right now, then that’s a problem. Just remember to take a deep breath and check your work and take your time. You are fine.

    5. Ama*

      Five years ago I came to my current employer from a job where I was overworked, subject to unreasonable demands, and told I had done things wrong when I had evidence in an email that I’d done exactly what I’d been told I should do. I’m *still* suffering residual anxiety from that job, even though current employer has been nothing but supportive, has always been understanding of my mistakes, and has never made me feel like I couldn’t trust my judgment (in fact I often get comments from my boss that I have a very good sense for how to handle tricky situations). It doesn’t happen as often as it once did, but I find it kicks in most often when I’m facing a situation that went poorly at old job (for example, when I needed to have a conversation with my boss about hiring extra staff) even though I have not once been disappointed with how my boss and current employer handle things.

      Go easy on yourself, bad jobs really do a number on you and you are going to need time to recover.

    6. Tiffany Aching*

      I’m a little over a year into my first job and I still feel like this all the time. Have a fist bump of solidarity!

      I just try to keep very good notes of what needs to be done and what I’m doing. Then if something goes wrong, I have notes and they help tremendously when telling someone or trying to fix it on my own. I’m naturally very anxious though, so I’m not sure it’ll ever go away for me.

    7. CatMintCat*

      I get it. I’m just finishing my first year in Nice Job after years in Bad Job. I still have moments where I just know i’I’m a waste of space and the hammer is going to drop, but they are getting further and further apart. Throw in a move on top of all that and no wonder you’re stressed!

      1. Zildafitz*

        One and a half months into NewJob where I have halfway reasonable bosses from OldJob where everything I worked on was worthless and had to be entirely re-done. I still get really anxious day to day so solidarity! Don’t let the bastards get you down and all that

  5. Department of One*

    A big reason I left my last job was because two coworkers at different times went on maternity leave, I inherited their work while they were gone, they came back, and then decided that they were leaving for good to stay home with their babies. My boss, seeing that I had maintained the workload while they were gone, decided not to rehire their positions and that I could do the work of three instead (no increase in pay or title). Even though I tried to insist that I was able to maintain it on a temporary basis and couldn’t do that permanently, my boss left the positions empty so that I was working alone.

    Now in my new job, a coworker that I work closely with and am very friendly with, has been gone on maternity leave, soon to return in a couple weeks. Like before, I received that majority of her tasks to cover while she was gone. I had a private and honest conversation with her about what had happened in my previous job, and simply asked that she try to give me a heads up if she decided she wouldn’t come back permanently after her leave. She said she doubted that would happen because her family needs both her income and her husband’s so she should be coming back but she agreed she would warn me if it changed.

    With her due to return soon, I am getting nervous about her leaving. I can’t maintain both of our workloads on my own; I’ve barely been keeping my head above water. If she decides not to come back, I need someone else to take her place. However, especially with talk about tightening up the budgets, I could see our boss leaving her position empty for me to do all the work. What can I do to encourage the boss to fill her roll? Short of threatening to leave if no replacement is hired, I don’t know how to stress my point. But I would definitely not stay in my position alone permanently; I won’t put myself through the stress again.

    (Obviously, anything could happen that could cause her to leave; I’m not trying to single her out because of the maternity leave. Just having it happen to me twice in the last few years, it was my first thought when she told me her pregnancy.)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I totally understand why you’re on edge about this, but you’re worrying about something that may not even be an issue so I’d suggest trying not to obsess over it until you know there is actually issue (and believe me, I know this is easier said than done).

      That being said, if she does decide not to return or leaves shortly after returning, I would say that you need to have a frank conversation with your direct supervisor about why you left your last position and how two workloads is untenable in the long term. If they push you to ‘at least give it a try’, the best way to convince them that they need to replace coworker is to let some balls drop. If you kill yourself to get everything done, they’ll think you can handle it. I know that will also be a tough thing to do.

    2. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      You could be less efficient. Really. I’m not saying waste time, but you have a job with set responsibilities. Those responsibilities don’t include those of your coworker. If you don’t have the time to complete all of it without extended periods of pressure and stress, then don’t. Get done what you can get done in a day and when asked about what was not done, explain that the workload really requires two people.

      I used to temp in different offices, and businesses hire people to cover for maternity leave all the time. You are not their only option.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I second this. Start leaving some of her tasks undone or only partially done, with the reason that she’ll be returning soon and will take it up when she returns. If her job is to file the TPS reports, go ahead and let them pile up a bit, because she’ll get to them when she returns. Only cover what is most urgent.

    3. Clorinda*

      Do the typical things Alison suggests when someone is doing someone else’s work. Make it clear to Boss that you can’t do A through G, and ask what are the priorities: if you do A, B, and C (your own job), you can maybe do D and half of E (part of co-worker’s job), but F and G are likely not to get done.
      You can emphasize that you’ve been putting in extra hours, or whatever you’ve been doing, for the maternity leave period, but that the double work load is not sustainable long-term.
      Also, don’t panic! Maybe it won’t even happen. After all, your co-worker told you she needs the job.

    4. Not Maeby But Surely*

      It’s a good idea not to get hung up on the what-ifs, particularly if coworker has indicated she will be returning out of necessity after her maternity leave. If it helps you put it behind you for now, come up with an outline of what you’d say to your current boss if she does quit, then leave it on the back burner until you need it. Based on the context you provided, your employer hasn’t indicated they have the same faulty thinking as your old boss, so you have much less reason to dwell on this than if you were still in our old job.

    5. Overeducated*

      Just a word of comfort – in my experience most women do come back from maternity leave, you had a run of bad luck but that’s not the norm and I hope it is over.

    6. Kathenus*

      As others are already touching on, from the very beginning, work with your manager on a realistic workload. Be clear up front that you can’t fully do two jobs, and work with her on prioritization. Don’t wait until you’re feeling burnt out or overloaded, be very proactive on this.

      As you saw, trying to just do it all can lead to the powers that be thinking that you can do this long-term. So don’t do poor work, or let things fall through the cracks to make a point because this might reflect badly on you; right from the beginning have the conversation and come to agreement on workload and priorities. I used to have a boss who always kept adding to our plates. I got very, very good at saying ‘of course I can do X. Would you like me to put of doing A or B in the meantime while I focus on X?’ I was really consistent with this and he, after a little time, actually noted it on one of my performance appraisals as a strength.

      Good luck

    7. Could be Anyone*

      If you’re barely keeping your head above water, mention to your boss now that you could use some assistance with the extra workload. You might not get it, but at least make them aware that it’s a struggle and not something you can maintain.

    8. Marthooh*

      Do your own work first and do it well. Leave coverage for your coworker for the nooks and crannies of time left over after that. Document all the tasks you do as coverage and update your manager regularly on what you have and haven’t done. That will remind them that you are doing extra, but still not getting everything finished. (It will also be valuable information for your coworker when she gets back.)

    9. nonymous*

      Can you take this opportunity to delegate task or reduce coverage? So for example if you and coworker both run weekly reports, maybe the (temporary) solution is that the reports get run every other week. One week you do your normal reports and the next week you do hers. Or if there are parts of your job which require a lower skill set maybe you can borrow someone from an adjacent team for 5 -10 hrs/week to cover those tasks (it can be good cross-training if the other team is actively trying to grow their knowledge base).

      Also, your coworker should be writing up procedures for simple/routine stuff so that your role is keeping track of what SOP they can follow (and pointing them to that resource) instead of doing it for them. For example if she normally spends time to fix common errors, maybe your department can adopt the (temporary) policy that those type of errors will now be returned for sender to fix.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      You know, it’s funny but when I was interviewing about a year and a half ago, I interviewed at a company where 3 of the people were pregnant and I was told I’d be “lucky” to rotate through and learn their job areas while they were on maternity leave. Ha! I think NOT. I ran like the wind! Bullet dodged, based on your story.

      Why won’t these companies at least hire a temp like they do in Europe? I mean seriously. You can’t expect others to do the work of 2 or 3 people just because one takes maternity leave. It’s beyond cheap and worse, ends up punishing the ones who don’t have children.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Part of the issue is the length of maternity leave.

        If someone’s gone for a full year, then for a lot of jobs you’ve got time to hire a temp, get them up to speed and reap the benefits. And asking someone to do double duty for a year (or leaving tasks undone for that long) will drive your existing employees away. If someone’s gone for a month, it can be less disruptive and more effective to spread out the duties over existing staff, and put off less critical tasks – hiring a temp, unless the duties are very generic, might not help all that much.

        Plus, if you’re talking about specialized work (ie, the kind you can’t hire from a temp company), you draw someone in with the promise of a one year contract who might well turn down a six week one.

        On a random side note – I wonder if there’s a correlation between length of maternity leave and last minute decisions not to come back to work. Leaving a six week old who in full time day care and trying to pump enough milk to feed them every three hours is a very different proposition that doing the same with a weaned one year old.

  6. Girl from the North Country*

    Anyone have any good tips for fending off the office creep? He always seems to be around, and is constantly watching what I’m doing and making annoying comments about how “anti-social” I am (yeah I am, only with him!). It’s gotten to the point where I feel uncomfortable going to the break room for lunch because I’m worried he’ll be there and I’ll get sucked into an awkward conversation or have him staring at me. HELP!

    1. blink14*

      Does anyone else have a problem with and/or is there a co-worker you can confide in to get a read on if his behavior is directed just towards you or everyone more generally? If it seems that he’s specifically targeting you, might be worth having a conversation with your supervisor. I would continue to ignore his attempts at conversation and keep interactions as short as possible.

      Can you bring headphones to use in the break room? That’s automatically a good way to stop a conversation before it starts.

      1. WhoKnows*

        I second talking to the supervisor. And document weird occurrences. It may just be a quick convo between your supervisor and that person’s supervisor, who can then monitor the behavior themselves and raise it with them if they see something inappropriate.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      Do you have to work with him closely?

      In either case, I’d have some scripts ready like “I don’t really feel the need to socialize during work,” or “I have to get back to this, unless you need me for something?” for when he’s creeping. You could evn be a little more blunt and say “I don’t think that’s any of your business,” if he crosses a boundary with his comments.

      1. LALAs*

        When you catch him watching you, call him out on it. “Fegus, you keep looking at me. Is there something you need?” If he is hovering around, call him out on it. “I need to focus on my work Fergus and you standing around is distracting.” When he calls you anti-social, own it. “You’re right Fergus. I am not being social. I am here to work and you are making it difficult and you are making me uncomfortable.”

        Name it. Publicly. If that doesn’t stop it (or if you are scared of his reaction) go to your supervisor. “Jane, I am having an issue with Fergus.” Be clear and honest. He is doing X and it makes me feel Y.

        1. It's A Bird, It's A Plane, It's SuperAnon*

          Good male allies will be embarrassed that they made you uncomfortable and will change their behavior. Creeps will double down and try to make you out as “the bad guy”. His response to you calling him out will tell the rest of the office everything that they need to know about his interactions with you.

          1. purpleparrots*

            I’d posit that he’s already trying to make OP the bad guy with his “antisocial” comments! OP, don’t feel bad about being skeeved out — you get to decide who you socialize with at work and at home!

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          This this this.

          Especially “I am here to work and you are making it difficult.”

          As Captain Awkward says in the letter linked in my name, ‘This dude has been coasting on the social contract, the expectation that women are “nice” and accommodating, plausible deniability and your desire to let him save face (at the expense of your own comfort)’

          Return Awkward To Sender!

        3. OhGee*

          +1

          Someone who is going out of their way to treat you this way will likely only respond to being called out. And if it doesn’t stop, you have witnesses that can back up the fact that you tried to address it if you end up having to go to your manager.

      2. Dasein9*

        As persimmon pointed out, Captain Awkward has good advice about being around creepy people. I also recall some advice from her entailing a reassurance that it is Office Creep who is making things uncomfortable, not you, and you have no obligation to cover for him just to make other people comfortable.

        That said, this can be scary to do. We are socialized to smooth over social awkwardness, not turn the volume up on it. I recommend choosing a few of the phrases others have offered here and practicing them in the car and at home until you can say them without stumbling. If you do stumble, do it again the next time anyway.

    3. JB*

      The only real way to deal with this is establish strict personal boundaries for what behavior is and is not acceptable. And every single time he steps over those boundaries, you have to LOUDLY correct him. And I mean loud enough to get other people’s attention. Things like, “How is this relevant to my work?” or “Didn’t I already tell you ‘No?'” or just “Please stay away from me!” And again. you do not say this at a normal volume. You say it so loud and so emphatically that other people peek over their cubicles to see what is going on.

      Maybe the others will see that he is harassing you, and maybe he will get the message. If neither happens, you need to give your two week’s notice and make sure the management knows why you are doing it.

      1. valentine*

        This could easily backfire, especially if Girl from the North Country is lower on the social hierarchy than Creep is, and he can say it proves she’s unprofessional as well as anti-social. If she doesn’t want to risk her job or charges of verbal assault or harassment, and particularly if she wants any authority or law to work in her favor, she needs to be seen to be the reasonable one.

    4. Less Bread More Taxes*

      What about honesty? “You’re creeping me out with comments like that.” “That was a really inappropriate thing to say.” “It’s not anti-social to not spend time with someone who frankly creeps me out.” Maybe shocking him with one of those is what he needs.

    5. LKW*

      The reasons creeps get away with it, is because everyone wants to be polite. So you can potentially call out creepy behavior or putting up very clear boundaries. Always best if you can say these things in front of other people:

      Are you staring at me. It looks like you’re staring at me and that makes me uncomfortable.
      Why are you commenting on my looks/actions? That’s very creepy.
      I don’t know why you would think that is an appropriate topic for work.
      That is not an appropriate topic of discussion.
      You’re making me uncomfortable.
      You’re standing very close, please give me some personal space.
      I would prefer to ready my book, listen to my podcast, etc. Thank you for understanding.

      Find the phrases that best work for the situations you have. Practice them. Out loud. Rehearse them at home. It sounds so silly but I promise it will help your mouth make the right shapes when you need it to.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know if that legally constitutes a hostile work environment, but if you have to constantly watch what you’re doing and get uncomfortable getting into the break room because he’s staring at you, that sounds very harassment-y to me. Can you talk to your manager about it or HR?

    7. persimmon*

      Captain Awkward has suggested that, if someone tries to manipulate you by calling you something (like “anti-social”), you can just agree. “Yep, I can be a little anti-social at work.” “Yep, I’m feeling anti-social today and don’t want to chat with you.” Perfect escape!

    8. A person*

      I’ve dealt with this too -I know it’s probably uncomfortable and feels rude not to, but you do not have to engage with him at his command. You don’t have to respond to his comments or make eye contact. Remember he’s the one being rude, not you. If there are others in the break room you can try talking with them instead, or have something to read or listen to to distract yourself from the stares. Not giving the desired response may extinguish the behavior.

      While I’d like to say someone who is always hovering around obviously has too much free time and their manager will notice and it’ll work itself out, that isn’t always the case. Don’t be afraid to report if he escalates.

    9. gmg22*

      First piece of advice is to talk to your manager about this. (And yes, this assumes that your manager is trustworthy, discreet, and well-trained in HR situations — if you unfortunately can’t count on that, look for someone else in a management role who can be counted on, or at least a trusted colleague.) Even if you’re not ready to actually have any actions taken to rein him in — and you can specify that — this is something your manager should be aware of, and it’ll make you feel better to know that they are aware.

      Re specific anti-creep strategies, do you have any “lunch buddies” you can strategize with a bit so you aren’t alone (and therefore vulnerable to creeping) during lunch?

    10. bdg*

      I’ve got nothing for you but empathy.

      I had a super nice older guy start leaving a lot of comments on my blog (which is public) and then eventually start texting me. Ignoring those comments and texts didn’t work, so I went to HR. They couldn’t do much, but had a chat with him on boundaries or something and checked in frequently to make sure he hadn’t kept it up.

      I still run in to him walking out to my car sometimes. It’s a long walk, there’s only one path, and there’s an expectation that you do not use your cellphone while walking. It’s hard.

      Is it possible for you to go to the breakroom with someone else? Do you eat in the breakroom? If not, you could maybe just keep your food in your cube. That’s a lot to compromise on for one dude though, so I hope there’s an easier solution!

      1. valentine*

        bdg, the stalker isn’t nice. HR could’ve told him to stay away from you and, mostly, not to try to catch you where you can’t use your phone. Why do you need to be phone-free whilst walking?

    11. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Get really blunt in your language but keep your tone, calm, emotionally neutral, and professional, “Stop staring at me; it’s impolite.” “Stop making comments on my social habits; it’s rude and unprofessional.” “My social habits are none of your business. You need to leave me alone.” And keep track of what he’s doing, when, and exactly how you responded. Then, if the behavior continues you can tell your boss that you’ve told him to stop and he’s continued.

    13. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      I would bring it up to your manager, to another manager/leader you trust, and/or HR. You have a right to feel safe and productive at work. If you can raise it directly with the creep, that’s of course preferable (and you should feel confident knowing you’re well within your rights to do so, and to do so in no uncertain terms – “You’ve made me uncomfortable on multiple occasions by staring at me and making comments to me. I don’t want to talk to you for any reason other than if it’s required for our work. Leave me alone.” But if you don’t have it in you to do that, raise it to someone with power. If something like this were happening in my office, I would want to know, because I would absolutely prioritize the comfort of staff over the right of some asshole to be an asshole.

    14. WinethetimeKat*

      You can do what I (finally ) did. When he spoke I ignored him. When he got too close I would loudly say hey you are too close. When he cornered me in the hallway I said again loudly get away from me. After about three or four times of that he backed off. He wanted someone who would not push back and I do

    15. Autumnheart*

      Look him straight in the face with the most killer case of RBF you can conjure. If he tries to say you’re anti-social or whatever, just say, “What do you mean? I’m a very friendly person” in the kind of polite voice that Samuel L. Jackson would use when discussing the merits of Big Kahuna Burger. Practice some really aggressive body language. You’d be amazed at how much people will pick up on the subtext even when your words are perfectly polite, especially creeps who depend on using subtext themselves to push people’s boundaries.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      People hate counting. Count out loud, as in these examples:
      Creeper, this is the fourth time this morning you have been standing there staring at me. Do you have work to do or no?
      OR
      Creeper, this is the 3rd time [today,this week] you have called me anti-social. Do you stand at men’s desks and tell them they are anti-social also?
      OR
      Creeper, no one else calls me anti-social. You seem to be the only one complaining. But then again, no one else stands in front of my desk 12 times per [hour/morning/day/whatever].
      OR
      Creeper, I am not anti-social. I am working. I suggest you do the same.

      Staring at you:
      Creeper it’s rude to stare at people and you must stop now.
      (Notice you do not ask and you do not say please.)
      Creeper, you are staring again. Perhaps we need to talk this out in the boss’ office. You don’t seem to be able to stop on your own.
      Creeper, still not working, eh?
      [You can point out to him that you have started keeping track of how many times a day he comes to your desk. Tell him you will be giving the totals to the boss at the end of the week.]

      Break room:
      [Bring a book to read, your phone to look at or some papers to go over. Sit with your back to him if possible.]
      If it’s not possible then say:
      “Creeper, you are staring again. I have already told you that you need to stop. I mean that.”
      [People do not like to be reminded they have been told something before. This is the same idea as the counting idea, people do not like to hear how many times they have done Bad Thing.]
      Creeper, if what you are doing is so benign then why I don’t see you staring at the men also?”

      Figure out your own word choice and practice in front of the mirror at home. Or use your drive time to say these things out loud and get used to hearing yourself say them. The over all idea is to remind him how many times he has done X behavior, remind him that you have told him to stop. When he tells you that you don’t tell other people these things, remind him how his behavior is different, such as other people do not hang out at your desk. (BTW, that’s a great expression to use. Answer his stupid statements with, “You are hanging out at my desk again.”)
      Don’t whisper but don’t yell, use your regular voice. If you happen to be overheard then oh well, sucks to be Creeper.

      Give him a week to change his behavior. If there is little to no change, go to the boss. Don’t let this drag on and on. Tell the boss what steps you have taken so far and you would like her to step in. I’d bet my last chocolate donut he does not do this to men.

    17. BeenThere*

      Besides telling him to stop, write it down, every single time. Date, time, what he said, what he did. Maybe write it down while he’s there so he can see you making notes every time he does this to you. Maybe take a photo of him with your phone, and make notes in your phone. If you have a trusted ally at work, tell that person. It would be best of that ally were a man, but tell somebody.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. He counting on you to be polite and not to make a stink. But he’s the one whose causing this problem.

    18. None the Wiser*

      You should bring this to your manager immediately.

      One of my reports spoke to me about a temp who was creeping people out. They were gone by the end of the day.

      Obviously, the dynamic is different with a full-time vs. a temporary employee, but your manager can’t do anything if they don’t know.

  7. Julie*

    Today’s my last day at my current job. I’ve been bored in this job for quite a while and wasn’t exactly sad about leaving…until this week. Doing all the wrap-up/handover stuff made me a weird sort of nostalgic (like, no way I’d want to go back and do all that again and yet somehow I feel sad it’s over…?).

    Has anyone else had this sort of ‘separation anxiety’ from jobs they’ve just felt neutral about (obviously feeling sad about leaving a job you loved would be normal)?

    (Pretty sure the feeling will pass once the day is over, but right now it’s kind I’m feeling all sorts of melancholy.)

    1. Yvette*

      Is it possible that it is more about fear of the unknown and change (OK fear may be too strong a word but you get the drift)? Also, I am sure that there were parts of the job that you did enjoy, maybe a coworker or two? And I am also sure that the feeling will pass. Good luck in your new job!!

    2. Girl from the North Country*

      Yes! A few months ago I transferred jobs WITHIN THE SAME COMPANY, still in the same office around the same people, yet my last day on that job felt so sad for some reason! It reminded me of that feeling in school when it was the last day before summer break and the school year was over lol. I didn’t even like my boss or the work that much, but I still had to keep reminding myself that I’m not actually “leaving.” So you’re not alone!

    3. Trouble*

      I sobbed like a baby leaving my last job. I hated the work and didn’t have close friends in anyone there. It was 6 years of my life 50 hours a week though. Soon as I started my new job I was over it.

    4. Tara S.*

      This almost always happens to me! I start doubting whether getting a new job was actually a good move (spoiler: it is), couldn’t I have done more at my current job? I think it’s just normal anxiety of leaving a comfortable space to go to a new, unfamiliar one. There’s always a tough transition, but it’s most likely for the best. Congrats on your new job and best of luck!

    5. Mae West*

      Yes, I’ve had those feelings even for jobs I couldn’t wait to leave! I start thinking about the not so bad aspects of the job I’m leaving, which makes me feel ridiculous, as well as nostalgic.
      I also go through a time of thinking about my old schedule and tasks even while at my new job! (e.g., it’s 10 o’clock, X is happening at old job.) UGH.

    6. hate being late*

      Yes! On the day I left a job I absolutely hated, I was filled with emotion and actually cried in front of people. I think it’s normal :)

    7. SignalLost*

      Hell, I had it with a job I hated actively and viscerally. I think it’s more nostalgia/fear of the unknown than anything else.

    8. Yellow*

      I was at a toxic job for 9 years. I was ready to quit and work at Target until I found something new, that’s how bad it was. But on my last day I cried when saying goodbye to everyone and essentially sobbed when I got in the elevator the last time. I’ve never regretted leaving, even for a second, but still. Emotions are bound to happen!

    9. StressedButOkay*

      Absolutely! I had originally looooved my last job but ended up resenting it pretty badly by the end of my time there. I was more than ready to go and looking forward to new challenges at New Job. And yet, I still cried the day I left and I worried about “my” work my first few weeks in New Job.

      It’s perfectly normal. We get weirdly comfortable in situations that make us happy and this is a big change.

    10. AngryOwl*

      Completely. I was in a super toxic company a few years ago and still was sad to leave, because I would miss the people.

      I’m in my notice period for my current job, and I’m very happy about my decision to leave. But I’m still getting sad.

    11. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Yes. My first real job was at a start-up company–at least it was a start-up when I was hired; I started out hauling boxes of books and ended up a website developer. I was there for almost nine years, and quit because an insane toxic boss got hired to run the IT department.

      I had no doubts, and still have no regrets, about my decision to leave; but my last day was very sad indeed. I’d been through a lot, made some great friends, and learned a ton at that place. I spent a while after hours just wandering around the warehouse, going through memories. There were a few tears when I got in my car and drove out for the last time.

    12. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      Yeah, it’s the end of an era in your life! It’s normal to feel feelings as you know things are changing. :)

      Personally, I focus on all the things at the current job that I hated doing that I’ll never have to do again. Whatever annual task that I’ll never have to return to, whichever person I hated getting that data from every months, whatever it is. That always brings me a lot of joy!

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sometimes we can get sad for the possibilities that did not pan out. I’ll bet you took that job thinking you would have great opportunities and wonderful coworkers. You spent a lot of time & effort trying to make it work… . I see nothing weird about, well, grieving for what might have been.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have it every time I leave. Except for Toxic Waste Job.

      It’s like breaking up. Even if you didn’t love the person, that finalizing moment causes the feels.

    15. Parenthetically*

      Absolutely! I’m totally confident in the decision I made to leave my previous job and was definitely getting burned out on it. I was ready to leave — I didn’t hate it, but I definitely didn’t enjoy it much anymore. But those “lasts” were still hard! Regardless of how you felt about the job, it’s a season of your life that’s coming to a close, and it makes sense for it to be an emotional moment.

      My advice is just to let yourself feel that melancholy feeling with no judgment. Change and endings often prompt reflection on the passage of time, if nothing else, and it’s good to give ourselves permission to be reflective when the opportunity arises.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      You know, even with the bad jobs, I could work up a case of nostalgia/tears on my last week.
      Some of it is “the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know”. Some of it is a sense of the end of a chapter of my life. I know that sometimes I caught myself thinking that I did not focus enough on what was right with the job. Then I’d realize, no, that’s not true because there was not that much right with the job.
      As others have mentioned, it’s a temporary feeling. You get started at the new place and you will refocus.
      For me, a lot of that stopped after I left one job that really was the job of my life. I was pretty upset with a 9 week long migraine. Once I got into Next Thing the headache dissipated. And after that leaving jobs was not as hard.

      Tell yourself positive, reassuring things.
      I wish you all the best at the new place.

  8. Trainer*

    Hi Everyone, I am thinking about starting my own business as a Training, Development and Marketing professional. I have over 6 years of experience designing, developing, and delivering training and communications for businesses, including visuals, infographics, PowerPoint presentations video tutorials, interactive courses, virtual training sessions, and wiki pages. I also provide marketing services such as communications, flyers, mailers, banners and ads, and more.

    My problem is that I don’t know how much to charge. All the work I’ve done has been for major corporations. I already have some interest from a few people asking for a few schedule but I don’t have one. Any suggestions on how I can research this type of info? Websites offering the same type of work don’t seem to have fees posted. You contact them for a quote.

    Any help would be appreciated. TIA

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I don’t have that much advice specifically, but make sure to save back a good chunk of income for self-employment taxes.

    2. Yvette*

      Is there a professional association that you could join where you could ask those kinds of questions? Maybe you could reach out to a company where they would not consider you competition and ask them?

    3. k8isgreat*

      Did your job ever send you something like a “total compensation” booklet ? Mine does. It totals the full cost of your compensation, including all the benefits the employer provides and actually gives my “true” hourly rate. Mine does it yearly and it’s very interesting an a good guide to striking out on your own. Another rule of thumb is to take your currently hourly rate (if you plan to charge hourly) and double it when charging for your own business. That way you can cover things like health insurance/401k/time off things like that.

      The other option is to move backwards. Start by putting together a yearly or quarterly budget, decide out how much you want to make in that time and be sure to factor in things like office supplies, computer, utilities, healthcare, retirement savings, time off and whatever else comes to mind. Total that all up and then figure out how many clients you can handle at a time, how much time you plan to devote to them and if that amount meets your needs.

      I hope to move into full-time freelance work sometime in the next two years, so this is something I’ve been thinking about too. If you need a freelancer with corporate writing experience, let met know and I can send you a portfolio. Good luck!

    4. foolofgrace*

      Have you considered reaching out to SCORE (Service Corps of Retired Executives, free advice) or the SBA (Small Business Association)? The SBA used to even grant loans to some new businesses but I don’t know if they still do.

    5. Two Dog Night*

      This is definitely not the final answer, but for a starting point, take your annual full-time salary, divide it by $1000, and think about that as per-hour charge. So if you’re making $80K a year full-time, your hourly charge might be around $80.

      Of course, if you’re paying for an office and equipment and other employees, that’s a whole other thing. But if you’re starting off on your own, it might be in the ballpark.

    6. Not In NYC Any More*

      A good basic resource is “How Much Should I Charge? by Lynn Wasnak. You can download the PDF for free from the Writers Market site. You can find it by googling the title and Wasnak. The author surveyed a ton of trade groups and came up with high, low and median rates for all kinds of services ranging from blog posts to ghostwriting books, from corporate presentations to press releases, and everything in between. It’s about 10 years old, but unfortunately freelance rates haven’t risen since then (nor have most corporate salaries), so it’s still pretty good for a baseline that you can then tweak to fit your own situation.

    7. A Consultant*

      I would advise looking for reference books on marketing/consulting start-ups, which may tackle this question with more specificity and insight for your industry. I’m a different field of consulting, and had one such book that was super helpful in getting started. But here’s the basic math it advises, which may translate.

      Step 1: List the annual “salary” you would want to have (maybe your gross from your current job?). Then list/estimate the other “payroll” expenses that your employer currently pays (i.e., not being deducted from your take-home already) — employer share of FICA (i.e., self-employment tax), health insurance premium, retirement. Then list annual additional business expenses you would have (i.e., equipment, software, supplies, business insurance, etc. – this will vary greatly). Total it up: Total amount you need to earn in a year.

      Step 2: Figure out how many “billable” hours you have in a year. From the standard work-hours in a year (2080), be sure to subtract off-time (vacation, sick, holidays), ALSO deduct an estimate of how much time you’ll need to spend on non-billable stuff (i.e., business tasks, marketing, etc.). Divide the total from above with your available work hours: That’s your ideal hourly rate.

      Step 3: Adjust the rate based on anything you know about the field, what the market will bear, etc. For a task-based fee schedule, estimate how long you think it takes you to do X or Y and multiply it by the rate. For more custom work, you may assess each project as it comes to come up with a total fee for that project.

      Good luck! Sounds like you have a good foundation to get started.

  9. Pancakes*

    Any tips or advice on filling out a annual review paperwork? It’s that time for me and while I’ve had reviews before in previous jobs they were always surface level “you’re doing a great job, just keep it up” conversations. This is my first annual review at a new company and I want to really take advantage of it.

    1. [insert witty username here]*

      Make sure to highlight things that might normally go under the radar but that really make a substantial difference to your team/boss/company. Highlight any areas where you’ve done process improvement. Also cover any new skills or duties you’ve learned/taken on. Even if it ends up being a surface level conversation, get these things in writing!

    2. LKW*

      Put some thought to what you’ve contributed, either in work effort or knowledge. Think about what bridges you’ve built on or across your team. If you introduced or built new processes or tools clarify what you did and the impact it had.

    3. It's A Bird, It's A Plane, It's SuperAnon*

      Metrics are your friend in this case, and if you don’t have hard metrics, then point to as many specific tasks as you can. If your company has a mission statement or roadmap, tie that into your written self-assessment.. “I closed X% of customer requests on time”, “I supported Y task which is critical to product success”, “I supported our Diversity & Inclusion initiative by planning/coordinating Z event.”

    4. just trying to help*

      One thing I’ve found is handy to refresh my memory is to go back through my email, both received and sent, to document what has taken place over the past year. This can help organize your thoughts chronologically as well as emphasize projects and accomplishments which took more time and attention.

      1. Elle*

        Thats a good idea. I also try to keep a running word file with bullet points of projects I complete and what I learned doing them. I’m always shocked looking back at how much more advanced I’ve gotten since the last year, and it also helps come resume update time.

      2. Snow Drift*

        I set Outlook reminders to do this before my e-mail vanishes (we have a short retention policy; anything older than 3 months gets automatically deleted). It’s a good way to set aside a block of time to self-assess.

    5. HBucket*

      Because a lot hangs on this where I work, I keep a log of projects or things i do that are above and beyond… or, if within the scope of my job, that i got high praise for.
      When I submit my input, I break it down into the four topics our agency focuses on (for appraisals). Off the top of my head, I think they are Communication, Customer Service, Technical, and…. something else. Then I list the impact.
      For instance, under Technical: Created online reporting tool for field use which greatly decreased the amount of time spent reporting, collecting and analyzing this data. (I’m a little more specific, but wanted to give you a general idea.) If you have the actual metrics, that is super helpful… Created online reporting tool for field use which decreased labour by 47% and increased productivity by 120% (for example).

  10. wingmaster*

    Having my company holiday party tonight, and it’s open bar!!!…let’s see if I got some crazy stories after tonight. I’ll also make sure these crazy stories don’t come from me.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ll be the ‘and spouse’ tonight. Unfortunately I have a lot of trouble with names & faces and there was no summer picnic to refresh my memory, so I’m quite nervous.
      I’ll be sticking to the shrimp cocktails!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Omg they had lobster mac&cheese as a side. I’m stuffed to the gills and stone cold sober.

        And my daughter had a wonderful time at her dance …and her father came around and seems to be getting over his anger that I disagreed with him strongly enough to veto him.

        All is right with the eorld.

  11. Susan*

    Would welcome input from remote workers & managers.

    I’m directly managing a remote employee. I had a short meeting with her earlier this week and we’ve set up weekly check-in meetings.

    Remote managers, any tips on how to make this a great experience for both of us? For background–we only hire people who have a lot of experience and were vetted for being competent in their work, so I’m not too concerned about teaching her about taxes/payroll etc but just guiding through our systems. We set up weekly check-in meeting.s I feel like the biggest challenge would be to make sure they’re engaged and don’t up and quit. Any other challenges I should know about and advice on how to manage them?

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      Make sure she knows how to communicate with you throughout the day if necessary. Should she call, email, text, slack, etc.? Urgent vs non-urgent?

    2. LKW*

      Periodically ask, “Is there anything i can do to improve or help you improve?” And then listen. It’s at a minimum offering half a bridge.

    3. President Porpoise*

      I’m a remote employee, and part of what seems to help is I give my boss a weekly update of accomplishments, problems, opportunities, and upcoming issues/events. This helps her keep track of what I’m actually up to, and can usually be succinctly summarized in an email.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Be really aware that if the rest of the team is in one location with you, you need to consciously train/remind yourself not to be biased in favor of the people you see every day and to make extra efforts to make her feel included. Also make sure that she has someone else on the team who she trusts and can ask questions of. I was a remote employee for a boss who completely favored the people he saw every day and it was a disaster, especially when one of those people started bullying me.

    5. Two Dog Night*

      Are there other employees in your group? Make sure she makes connections with them as well. I’ve been working remotely for 10 years, and I’d hate it if I didn’t have anyone to chat with once in a while.

    6. AngryOwl*

      I’ve been a remote employee and remote manager. The weekly checkins are a good idea. I’d also work to make her feel integrated with the rest of the team/company. This may mean video calls, social chatter on any company conversation networks (like Slack), etc.

      Another thing that you don’t seem at risk for, but just in case — make sure you don’t fall into the trap of thinking hours online/butt in seat = quality. It’s easy for remote workers to over-work in an effort to prove they’re not slacking, and for managers to unintentionally contribute.

      Sounds like you have a good approach though, good luck!

    7. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Vary how you communicate. One thing I noticed is for a short time, the only time I called some of my team members was when there was a problem. I quickly started calling for short questions/innocuous reasons. I didn’t want them to be afraid if I called. Plus it gave me a chance to have the water cooler chats with them that you can’t do all the time if you’re launching into a problem.

      Speaking of water cooler chat, make an effort. I have worked remote from my peers and direct reports for about 5 years now. I make an effort to share some of the non-work sides of myself. Like the day I IM’d two of my peers to tell them how I ducked out of a conference call to quickly refill my water and managed to lock myself out of my office. Or I will share a funny picture of my dog via email.

      Don’t be afraid of the mail or shipping things. I’ll use a current example… it’s the Holiday season.. A lot of managers will get their staff small gifts. This should still be done for remote employees. Send them a small gift.

      Face to face meetings… if possible try to get the person in to the office at least once early on. Foundational training is easier and it’s great to give people a chance to meet live before they work together remote.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        My mostly remote team would have video meetings and sometimes would have quick tours of their house, show their pet, or other funny things for the first 5 minutes. Someone once came on dressed like Luke Skywalker.

    8. Long Time Reader, First Time Poster*

      I manage a lot of remote employees (and work remotely myself). I strongly recommend using video conferencing over telephone. It really, really helps — especially on days you need to have more difficult conversations.

      My other big recommendation is to use slack or some other instant messaging tool, so that you can communicate in real time about little/quick things, and then make a point of using it. Agree ahead of time what hours they will be available and stay within that window.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When someone is working across a server, technical response time can be slower than you expect. Check as soon as you can that your remote worker isn’t being asked to do something that is difficult or impossible because of technical issues. Test & time the systems–make sure they know “this should take 5 minutes” means THEIR PART is 5 minutes, and that they should report if the software doesn’t allow that. Be prepared to reorganize workflow to adjust.

      Two examples from CurrentJob. We revise documents in a working folder on the network server and move them to an archive folder when released. This allows us to back each other up seamlessly. When I was sent home to finish my day at home after to a power-outage, I learned it doesn’t work so well over encrypted VPN. Saving a document tdkes 5-10 times longer over VPN than it does on-site. Copying the files was also onerously slow. If I get another TC opportunity I’ll move files in bulk onsite, and only back up changed files over VPN at the end of a work period. (Scooter Software BeyondCompare if anyone is wondering.)

      Second example shows that it’s important to tell your remote employees to tell you if software access changes. We used to track our projects in an ancient Access database created by someone who didn’t really know databases. Slow but manageable. Then our division shuffled, and we were given people working in 3 other states. They have full hard-wired internet access to our server with the same mappings. It worked a little slowly. Then corporate encrypted our VPN, and didn’t tell us that it was also being rolled out to interstate networks. The first site converted, the person doggedly pushed through any data entry while she worked on other tasks. She missed a few, but not much. The second site, the position had just been shuffled into our department, and the person just she kept using her old spreadsheet. She switched jobs and we’re still dealing with the fallout. (!) The third site had the guy who bothered to ask how long it takes us to refresh data so now we’re researching a replacement.

      Othet than that, I’d recommend regular group conference calls–switching out times if need be to make time zones easier for some sites one week, others the next.
      Brownie points to the manager who gets marketing freebies and thinks to ask for extras to send to the remotes!

    10. nonymous*

      What I’ve seen work well is:

      (a) Use the same systems to commute with the entire team. Don’t tell local people stuff in-person as a group and then call/email/video chat the remote person separately. Either do a group chat/email/conference call or arrange the meeting in a spot that you can have video conferencing.

      (b) Have a easy process for a technical replacement of whatever you handle in-person with local staff. So if you interact with local staff by going to their desk and talking to them (or calling them to your desk) set up a video chat option that is just as quick. If you tend to pull a few people into a break out room throughout the day make sure that break out room has teleconferencing options.

      (c) Create opportunities for casual convos to happen. A lot of knowledge transfer happens by osmosis. Are there ways that can happen so that the remote employees can get that experience? One thing that works well is splitting up training over the entire team. Your senior teapot designer doesn’t need to show the new person how their prototype request needs to be formatted – that is something the lead technician can do, and the senior can train on the decision-making process that goes into the content. Another is to expect more convos to happen in the digital realm. A lot of people do not like the idea of topical (work related) chat logs being visible to the entire team and that is something management needs to keep an eye on. Don’t let cliques form, even if it’s just because people have differing ideas of “need-to-know”. Be willing to nudge people (new and old staff) with suggestions such as “I would like to see you participate more on Slack about X topics. Here is an example of the interaction I am looking for.” Make sure there is space for people to work heads-down. For example it might be okay to set status to busy for <2hr blocks and respond to IM/chat mentions afterwards at least once a day. Or if that's not reasonable maybe busy status means that staff responds within 10 min instead of immediately. And remind people to use "in a meeting" for phone calls as well.

      (d) Give local staff the opportunity to work remotely if possible. This time of year with germs floating around it is really nice for the entire team if a not-quite-sick person can be quarantined. If all staff are benefiting from the new infrastructure/workflows, it's much less of a burden.

    11. NW Mossy*

      As a manager of remotees (4 of 12), massive second on videoconferencing for weekly meetings – it does a tremendous amount for the development of your relationship with your employee and gaining trust in each other when you can see each others’ faces.

      I also recently introduced daily huddles for the team, which has helped a lot with my remotees feeling like they understand their teammates better and get a better sense of workloads and issues team-wide. It lowers the barrier for remotees to ask for help when they need it, rather than spinning their wheels trying to find answers on their own.

    12. periwinkle*

      My team is basically all remote, at least from each other. Three of us are stationed in one building, three are in separate buildings in other parts of our region, two are in the same building two time zones away, our manager works from home in a third time zone, and we’re about to bring on a couple more team members who are… somewhere? Most of us work from home 2-4 days a week since why the hell not. Virtual meetings are the norm for the whole organization since we’re scattered across campuses/regions/states/countries.

      The four ways we keep our team communicating:
      1. Regular 1:1s with our manager
      2. Webcams! We all have a webcam and use them during our various team/project meetings. If some of us are together in a conference room we’ll bring a webcam along. The visual contact is really important at keeping us feeling like a team rather than disembodied voices.
      3. We have multiple channels on something similar to Slack. One is an all-team channel, the others are ones we can open for group chats – this is great for private side discussions during things like vendor demos. The all-team is a mix of business and silliness.
      4. Occasionally face-to-face meetings. This year we all attended a particular conference and used that as some team bonding time as well as a working session and the usual conference stuff. We’re deciding on a conference for next year. We also have in-person all-team meetings a couple times a year.

      We are a highly engaged team, in large part because of these measures.

  12. Simon Says*

    Does anyone else not get jittery in their job until a coworker leaves?

    I’m pretty darn happy in my current job and, after a very long search period to find this job, I’m not in a hurry to start looking again. But I do start wondering if I should be looking anytime a coworker announces they’re leaving. They tell me about their new job and I start thinking ‘Wow, sounds a lot better than here! Maybe I should start looking again…’

    I’m pretty sure this is ‘grass is greener’ syndrome but I don’t know how to counteract it. And I don’t plan to stay in this forever, I know I’ll leave eventually, but I’m not beating down the door to leave just yet. So how do I know if I actually want to leave yet vs hearing the plans of others and feeling envious? How do I settle my jittery mind?

    1. Tara S.*

      Visualize the skills from this job that you would want to put on a future resume. Are you building those skills right now? Would you need to go somewhere else to do so? If you are building a skillset/getting experience, then you are ok where you are right now. Just keep in touch with your colleagues who are leaving so you can use them to network when you are ready to leave!

    2. BeanCat*

      Oh, “grass is greener”. How many shiny new jobs I have coveted despite being happy with my own.

      I think I would take a mental note of how frequently people leave/how frequently you feel antsy to move on. If you’re feeling it quite a bit, it might be worth examining. But it might also help to write down the things you really love versus the things you don’t. If those positives are enough to keep you happy for a while, I wouldn’t feel a rush just because someone else is leaving.

      But oh, is this a feeling I know well! Solidarity from another overall jittery person.

    3. Autumnheart*

      Keep in mind that you don’t have to think of it as “I stay here and do the same thing” vs. “I take a new job somewhere else”. Maybe you could investigate ways to do cool new things in your current role? Or look for growth at your current company? When a coworker leaves for a new opportunity, that isn’t a bad time to look at what you’re doing and see if you feel inspired to try some stuff.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ease your mind by collecting up facts.
      Take a look at what is available out there. See anything that has your name all over it? No? Then stay put and check again in a while. You are happy/comfy in your job this means you have the luxury of being selective. If you can find something remarkably better it might be worthwhile to look at. If no, then stand pat.

  13. What’s with Today, today*

    As y’all know I work in small market radio news. I’ve stumbled upon some serious corruption at city hall in our small rural town and an going to release a pretty explosive story next week. My adrenaline is through the roof!

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        I’ll consider posting the print version, though I’m worried because that would absolutely identify me to anyone in my area that might be a reader/or a regular poster.

    6. General Ginger*

      That’s exciting! Well, not the corruption itself, but that you get to illuminate it. I hope it all goes well!

    7. SaraV*

      Ooooo. As someone who has just left a PT job in rural town radio, and whose husband is still FT there, I’m excited for you.

      Maybe, next week, you can tell us how you found out about the corruption.

      Yay journalism!

  14. Anon to use real #'s*

    Possible promotion, salary negotiation

    (Relevant side note: I just finished my MPA yesterday! I’M DONE WITH GRAD SCHOOL!)

    I work at a research institute at a public university. My coworker is leaving (for a great opportunity and everyone is happy for her). She was hired at the same time as me and did the same type of job, just for a different program. Our boss, the head dept admin who works just under the director, has approached me about taking over the vacancy. Coworker and I were/are Teapot Coordinators, but my boss has said that he would upgrade the open position to a Teapot Manager (the role was purposefully lower at first in order to create growth opportunities). While my overall job duties would increase, my boss predicts it will be a slightly less stressful environment than the program I support now (where nearly everyone is on soft money and there is constant scrambling for funding).

    I’ve been at this dept for a little over 1.25 years, and I’ve been at the university for 3.25 years. When I took my current position, I was offered $43,000, I asked for $50,000, I got $48,000. My boss has said that he imagines if I took the promotion, I would go up to $53-55,000. I want $60,000, though I haven’t said that yet. My boss says that he is concerned about optics/compression among the admin staff salaries. While the most senior manager who has been here 30 years makes $70,000*, another manager makes $60,000 (boss has opinion she is overpaid, but she was a grant-funded direct hire, so he didn’t really get a say). One manager who has been here 3 years only makes $52,000, and the new Teapot Funding Specialist makes $52,000 as well. However, if I pull salary data from across the campus** for position with the same classification (does not always correspond to working title), the average salary is $60,000. Take out one department that has had a ton of low-paid new hires, and the average goes up to $62,000. Take out the lowest and highest salaries, it goes up to $63,000.

    What do you guys think is my move here? I’m thinking: “Thank you for considering me for the position, I am excited about the growth opportunities it offers. I know you had given me a salary range you expected for the position, and I know you have concerns about optics and compression, but when I look at the data for people in Teapot Technical Administration roles across campus , the average salary is actually $60,000—higher if you take out Dept ABC roles or skim off the highest and lowest salaries. Having just finished my graduate degree, I’ve thought about the role and I am wondering if you can do $61,000?” In reality I’ll accept down to $57,000. Thoughts?

    *All of our salaries are public, this is not confidential information.

    **Again, this is data anyone outside the university can access, I’m not using my position to get more info.

    ***Also, this is a public university but I am not in the classified system, by boss does have the latitude to do this.

    1. Murphy*

      I work at a public university and I just negotiated a raise. The kind of information that you have about others with a similar classification was exactly what they wanted. (I presented it to my boss and he worked with HR to make it happen.) Don’t just look at the broad classification, but look at people with similar job duties in other research instituted at your university, or even at other universities in your state system. I think your language there is good.

    6. Nines*

      Side note: If you don’t mind/see this, I would love some insight on your feelings about getting your MPA! My partner has been going back and forth on applying for an EMPA, I know he would do well in the program, just worried he won’t get the use out he wants.

      1. Anon to use real #'s*

        I felt a lot of ways about my degree going through it. It helped that I was working full-time and getting some tuition assistance (I work for the University where I got my degree, they don’t cover everything, in the end probably around a third). Working full-time was stressful with school on top, but I didn’t have to worry so much about the money calculation of “is taking this time unpaid to get my degree going to work out so I make enough money to justify it?” because I still had income.

        As far as an MPA in general, I think it will help me, and I’m happy I did it. Having a Masters is helpful, especially when you want to get to higher levels of leadership. (I had classmates who were mayors, police chiefs, people aspiring to be city managers. For those roles/to move up, having the MPA helps cement you as qualified.) To me, an MPA is like an MBA, but with a focus on government and non-profits instead of private business. I knew I wanted to work in the public sphere, so an MPA made way more sense than an MBA. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a job opening that requires an MPA, but my experience is limited.

        I’m not sure what you mean by EMPA? Do you mean just doing the degree online or and MPA with a focus on emergency management? I took a mix of online and in-person classes. It’s definitely possible to have good online courses, but it’s a lot harder imo, and I had some real duds. The best part of some of my in-person classes was just getting to hear my fellow students talk. My program didn’t have a lot of “straight from undergrad” people, mostly people who had been in their careers for a while, and it was educational just to hear their perspectives. If your partner does a totally online degree, and there is an opportunity for an intensive class (I had a couple that were only two weeks long), I would say take it. As far as Emergency Management, I took a class in that and had to interview several EMs for a project. They all either had an advanced degree (not necessarily an MPA) or had decades of experience in something like police work.

  15. Nervous Accountant*

    What’s a nice way to tell someone to sit the F down and get back to work? I’m not going to defend my position of why I need to tell someone to stop socializing and working, just advice on how to do it but not harshly.

    This one employee walks around all.the.time. My mgr has explicitly said “you have the authority over htem to tell them to cut this out.” So…good right? He has my back and all.

    But…but thanks to an awful experience with someone a while back, and just me being me, I’m too chickenshit to say anything. It doesn’t help that I was “reprimanded” by another coworker by telling someone to get back to work (but that’s another story for another day). This employee in question talks to everyone, but specifically this one group she goes to them all day long and I am getting so damn annoyed.

    Don’t get me wrong–she’s a very nice person, she and I have common interests and I love to talk to her about them. If we were peers, I would probably be there along with her. Her manager said he’d talk to her but he hasn’t and probably won’t and tbh he’s a bad example himself b/c he takes a bajillion breaks a day.

    I love socializing just as much as everyone, but there’s a limit. Our culture allows socializing as well so being too harsh will be out of place and uncalled for here.

    1. Teapot Lending Program Manager*

      Are you actually this person’s manager? Their team lead?
      You may not want to justify yourself, but that question matters here. Just because your manager said you can keep them in line doesn’t mean it’s best for you to be the one to do it. Whether this person sees you has having any authority over them matters in how you address it and whether what you say will be effective.
      Is this person disrupting you or others so you can’t do your work?
      Are they not getting things done for you or your team?
      I think you should focus on the problem this is causing rather than your own annoyance.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        +100 to “I think you should focus on the problem this is causing rather than your own annoyance.”

        It probably is incredibly annoying…but whether or not you have legitimate authority over the person, and whether or not it actually is disrupting your work (other than being a thorn in your side), is going to greatly affect whether there’s any effective way you can go about changing the situation in the way that you are wanting to.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      If it’s about listening to them, my go-to is to make it about me: “Sorry, but I’m really trying to concentrate here, and my headphones aren’t working. Could you please keep it down?”

      If they’re not getting work done and it’s affecting you, I’d concentrate on that. Either talk with their manager again, or be direct about your needs (not so much their behaviors). For example: “Hey, will you have this document to me by 2:30? I need to finish writing my report by 5 today, and that information is integral.”

    3. gmg22*

      1) I gather your manager and hers are not the same person? Do those two people have the same grandboss? Maybe that person is the one who needs to step in, because the hierarchy sounds muddled here — one manager telling you you can say something, the other vaguely promising to say something but not doing so — and that could potentially leave you hung out to dry. (This is not cool, and your managers need to sort it out.)

      2) Relevant to your question about the tone of your approach: While you’re trying to get someone in management to, you know, do something (sigh), can this attempt be framed for starters as “hey guys, can you keep it down, I’m having trouble concentrating”? I feel like that is a lot harder to argue with than “Please stop socializing, you need to be working” coming from anyone who isn’t explicitly the employee’s manager. The risk is that it will be counterproductive and the response will be “Who does NA think they are to tell me what to do?”

    4. LKW*

      I usually just walk over with a question and say “I’m going to interrupt because I have a work question.” then I ask my question and then it forces people to get back to work.

      It’s not subtle. Sometimes I start with “I’m sorry, I’m..” but not always. I don’t have to do it often.

    5. Llellayena*

      Interrupt the non-work conversation to ask her about a specific work-related thing, maybe ask her to find something for you that she would have at her desk/on her computer. When she goes back to her desk you can quietly ask her to keep a closer eye on how much time she spends socializing because it’s disruptive to the people around her who are trying to concentrate. If you are a team lead/manager over her, you can be a bit stronger “I need you to socialize less so you and the other employees can concentrate on work more.” (Alison has much better language for these than I do, but you get the idea) Getting her back to her desk to have the conversation solves the in-the-moment defense from the people she was speaking with. It’s a lot less effective for her to tell a story of how “rude” you were to reprimand her for socializing that no one else witnessed than have the others able to chime in with their perspectives too.

    6. SleepyInSeattle*

      So if I’m reading this right you have some authority over her but you aren’t her manager? That is always slightly trickier. Ideally, her boss would be the one to have this conversation with her. But if you are responsible for her work ins some way and the impact of her taking too many breaks affects you in some way and you can speak from that position that’s the best way to go. Whenever I have to have a conversation like this I first ask myself what is it I really want out of the conversation for myself, for the other person, for the relationship, and for the organization. Then ask myself what I can say to make it clear what I really want.

      Especially if she’s not breaking a rule, what’s the core of the problem? What’s the impact? Is she distracting her coworkers? earning a reputation as someone who is slacking off? Not completing things on time? Does her work go undone in a way that affects others when she’s off socializing? Are there impacts that she doesn’t see that you can make more visible to her? Whatever you say, say it in private and not in the heat of the moment if you are annoyed.

      I’d grab her in a moment when you can have some privacy and say something to the effect of “I’ve noticed you spend a lot of time during the day socializing with Joey and Chandler. I don’t want you to feel like you can’t spend time talking with them during the day at all. Everyone here takes occasional breaks and socializes a bit. That’s totally fine. But I’m not sure you realize that you are spending noticeably more time being social during the workday than other people here. Ross has been answering the phone more while you’re away from your desk. And it’s distracting to me and your other coworkers. To give you some guidance on what is normal, two 10 minute breaks a day in addition to your lunch break is standard. The rest of the day you should be focused on your work.”

      1. SleepyInSeattle*

        I should add that my script above is only really appropriate if you have some authority over her work. If you are just an annoyed coworker you can only really discuss how it impacts you and how it may be impacting her reputation.

      2. Parenthetically*

        “what’s the core of the problem? What’s the impact? Is she distracting her coworkers? earning a reputation as someone who is slacking off? Not completing things on time? Does her work go undone in a way that affects others when she’s off socializing? Are there impacts that she doesn’t see that you can make more visible to her?”

        YES, all this! This is a great comment from start to finish.

    7. Boredatwork*

      hello fellow tax accountant – I see you have found the rare extrovert – I’ve heard they exist among our people.

      I think your best bet is to address the root of the problem, sounds like she needs to be assigned more work, more complex work or “managed” a bit more closely to ensure her work is getting done. If she’s under performing, she could be using “social time” as a form of avoidance/procrastination.

      If you’re going to interrupt her social time, I think it will go over better if it is directly work related. I would have a task in hand when you see her, “Oh Beth, are you busy? (clearly no) can you help me with XYZ client?”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Heh majority of us here are some sort of extroverted social animals lol

        Thanks everyone elSe, I’ll read through and respond shortly. <3

    8. Former Retail Manager*

      Unless you are the one writing this person’s eval, I would not head into this territory. Also, is she able to get all of her work done while still socializing so frequently? If so, great. The only way you may be able to frame it would be to gently remind her that while she may be super efficient, everyone she’s talking to, may not be, and the chatting may be impacting their productivity. When and how you would say this escape me, because I really think you should leave this to her official manager and the person that writes her eval unless it starts impacting your work directly.

    9. Nervous Accountant*

      I really wish my company hadn’t blocked this website on the computer. So much easier to type from desktop than on the phone. But thank u everyone for the input I really appreciate it!

    10. anon becasue.*

      Have you ever read back over your open thread posts? I’m trying to say this kindly, but it won’t sound that way. You seem to be easily annoyed. It seems every week someone has done something that upsets or annoys you. But I fear that you might be the common denominator. Could it be that you have a low annoyance threshold and maybe these are things you might want to just ignore?

      1. gmg22*

        What I was thinking is along these lines, but slightly different: not that NA should somehow learn “to just ignore” workplace distractions and annoyances (that’s not an easy thing to do, especially in a cube farm environment, and we should recognize that), but that NA might not be the right match temperament-wise for their workplace. It sounds very social and like management is OK with that. Some people don’t do well in that environment and really need a quiet office where they can keep their noses to the grindstone.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          Actually I like socializing and I enjoy the friendly environment here. So trust me when I say even with these in place, there’s a limit. And like I said I wasn’t going to argue WHY I need to tell someone to work but how to convey it nicely. And yes I have authority to tell people to do their work.

          You come to work to work, and socialize here and there. Not to socialize and work in between. Can’t beliebe I have to even say that.

          1. valentine*

            Nervous Accountant, you don’t have to be nice about it. You can be clear and firm. When she’s at her desk, tell her you’ve noticed a pattern where she visits a lot and you need her to cut that down to x visits/time or only on her breaks for the next y amount of time, some metric she can meet. She disagrees, disputes, debates? You: “Nevertheless…”

            I’m proud of you for rising to these occasions. There must be someone silently cheering you on in the room, who’s just as annoyed by the one guy’s phone and this person’s tours.

      2. Ole8*

        I was thinking that too. Are you sure that this is something you should be doing, given your tendencies? Perhaps a second opinion on the situation would be helpful.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          I’ve gotten several opinions from different people and they agree with me. And I am pretty sure they’re not the way I’m somehow being portrayed here.

      3. Boredatwork*

        Public accounting firms are notoriously dysfunctional. Esp the smaller regional/local ones. Nervous has basically been tasked with herding a bunch cats, with little, to no real, authority.

        Competent/strong mangers are extremely rare. Mainly because the type of person who is good at tax accounting, probably isn’t the same person who’s good at people management.

        Add in a bunch of children (kids fresh out of college) who are working their first job, throw in some blatant sexism (been there too) and you have the makings of the majority of nervous’ posts.

        1. gmg22*

          Very useful context. I definitely got a sense of “different managers are going to tell you different things and it’s not going to be clear who has authority over what” from NA’s post.

      4. Nervous Accountant*

        Actually I like socializing and I enjoy the friendly environment here. So trust me when I say even with these in place, there’s a limit. And like I said I wasn’t going to argue WHY I need to tell someone to work but how to convey it nicely. And yes I have authority to tell people to do their work.

        You come to work to work, and socialize here and there. Not to socialize and work in between. Can’t beliebe I have to even say that.

        1. ...*

          Well that was pretty snarky considering how nicely gmg phrased the question. Because it’s not just your posts about work. It’s pretty much every aspect of your life – at least, the stuff you post about on here. The responses you get on here are generally pretty delicate because you’re clearly (perpetually) dealing with a lot at home, and constantly making choices that add more problems to your plate. But it gets frustrating to read when it’s the same problem in a new situation over and over – most advice you receive isn’t no used, and when it is you don’t carry it over to use for other similar problems, you just comment for advice again.

    11. Parenthetically*

      Yep, just agreeing that in order for this to be effective, it cannot be about your annoyance or any of your other emotions, and it has to be about the impact on her work/productivity/reputation/optics. There’s a productive way to handle this that’s likely to lead to success, and that’s to focus on the work aspect of it; and there’s an emotionally satisfying way to handle this that’s likely to lead to strife and increased annoyance, and that’s to focus on how it’s pissing you off.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I think you are saying your biggest hurdle here is that you are concerned about being scolded by a coworker. If this is the case you have a slam dunk in that your boss supports you. And that is the card to play here.

      You: Jane, would you please return to your desk?
      Jane: Blah, blah, blah
      You: Jane, I am asking you nicely to return to your desk as these folks here really need to focus on their work.

      Busybody Cohort: NA, what did you do that for? It’s none of your business. blah, blah, blah.
      You: I discussed this with Boss and he agreed that Jane needs to spend more time at her desk. If you have any questions about this matter, you can talk it over with Boss.

      I am not clear on your exact setting but if the people she is talking with are YOUR people do feel free to interrupt and say, “Jane, I really need them to focus on our project right now.” This works because while you are not Jane’s boss, Jane is interfering with people and work under your watch. Because they are under your watch that gives you solid basis to say something.

  16. WellRed*

    Any editorial/writer types out there with suggestions for how to frame work as accomplishments on a resume? I am stumped beyond, “wrote widely read breaking news and other articles” (or some such). I mean, I manage some social media and stuff and update the website, etc. but don’t track any sort of metrics. I don’t sell ads. Help.

    1. Snow Drift*

      Number of page views on your articles. Also mention any major publications that picked up your articles.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      “Wrote local news stories for a paper with a circulation of X.”
      “Wrote informational background pieces on ecological issues, both general and in-depth, for website with X users.”

      Look at a job description of a role you would like (or maybe envision one) and then use those same keywords in describing your skills. “Wrote breaking news” could be anything from “reported on the elementary school chicken festival” to “carried out investigative reporting into the North Carolina mail-in ballot fraud.”

      1. Zildafitz*

        Ha, as someone who’s almost literally worked on both, I think the chicken festival was more widely-read

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Only one of these stories has an accompanying photo of my child dressed as an adorable little chicken.

    4. Tara S.*

      If you run a Facebook or Twitter, you can pull historical metrics about how followers count has increased (use % change or # of followers, whichever sounds better relatively). Those particular platform should also be able to tell you the “reach” of your content, so you can talk about “creating content that generated X impressions over X years.”

      Are you sure there’s no metrics of the news stories? Is there someone in your org you could ask about it? You can talk about how “I just want to get a better handle on how my work has been performing.” *Someone* is usually tracking that kind of stuff. Otherwise, you could talk about number of articles you published?

      1. Anon de plume*

        Well , there are metrics, but they don’t sound all that impressive on paper for the most part. Huge stories (a handful a year) may get 2 to 4K views, but most only get several hundred. We are a monthly print edition, with a weekly digital newswire. It’s an industry niche publication

        1. Metrics Fan*

          Can you show how your widely-read stories compared to the average story? I’m thinking like “wrote human interest story that generated 50% more views than average story in 2018.” That way people aren’t focused on the raw numbers–they’re focused on how your accomplishment looks in context.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Remember to highlight research and editing skills and work. How you do something is important. Proofreading, vetting sources, etc. Define the types of articles: short, full-length, with column inches or pages – whatever is appropriate.

      Did you learn any web-related skills for the website or social media accounts? Those are also really good to note.

  17. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

    We have a new person starting in my department next week. Today my boss told me they’ll be sitting in one of the cubicles behind me, which is where my old boss sat. I asked whether the new person could sit in the cubicle next to me, but she told me that the cubicle/computer belonged to a different position. I told her that having them sit behind me felt heirarchical, especially since that’s where my old boss sat. She reminded me that one of our junior colleagues once sat behind her cubicle. This did not make me feel better.

    1. Ms.Vader*

      I feel this just might be a “you” issue in that I’ve worked in a ton of offices and never felt that somebody sitting behind me is somehow higher than me. Hierarchy is based on position and responsibilities. This is especially true as your management told you that’s not the case. You’ll end up making it a way bigger deal than it is if you continue to worry about this kind of stuff.

    2. Katicus*

      You need to get over where your old boss sat. It’s a desk, now an office. Things change and this is really not a big deal or worth pushing back on. It makes you look out of touch.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      I recall a letter where someone who had been assaulted by a man was sensitive to having a man sit behind her, but not a woman, and the company dealt with it by moving her desk so no one sat behind her. PTSD accommodation.

      What you’re describing isn’t that. Sitting behind you doesn’t mean that person is your boss or your subordinate or any other hierarchical position.

      Your boss pointed out that she has had the exact same geography and it didn’t mean anything about the hierarchy–that should have made you feel, if not better, at least that you might be off base as to whether this is a thing.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          “I am uncomfortable with group X behind me due to this past trauma–it’s not logical and I realize that” is a very different awkward conversation with your boss than “People from Group X make me uncomfortable and I don’t want any behind me.”

          And even people who qualify for the first one are loath to have that talk unless they are really struggling.

          You’re uncomfortable with things that really are normal and don’t bother other people. It made sense to check that perception here before returning to it with your boss–but as I’m typing no replies are saying “You’re totally normal and your boss is the one who’s out of line.”

        2. Ms.Vader*

          It sounds like you’re uncomfortable with a lot of things that are normal parts of Office culture. I’d be very offended if someone didn’t want me to sit behind them solely based on my sex. If it’s stemming from some kind of trauma you’d want to work that through with a counsellor to give you coping mechanisms. But as the issue of him being a man seems to be a side note, I doubt it’s that serious. I would not accommodate this. I’d actually worry about your critical thinking skills and judgement.

        3. J*

          “The new employee is a man, which I am also uncomfortable with.”

          ~Seriously???
          This site has gotten way out of control with the feminist double standards.

    4. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

      Maybe so. But the truth is that my old boss was moved into a different position and still uses that desk when she comes to our offices. If I had known it was available I would have moved to that cube.

      1. fposte*

        But the first isn’t your problem, and the second isn’t your option. If there’s another cube you’d like to move to, you can raise it now, but I wouldn’t base it on a perceived hierarchy in the geometry, and I’d accept a “No.”

        The bottom line is that this isn’t a big enough thing for your dislike of it to change anything, and the specific concern you name isn’t one that is going to get a lot of play. I’d suck it up and save the energy for a battle that’s winnable and worth it.

        1. Oxford Comma*

          I agree. I think by pursuing it you’re wasting political capital on something that is going to look unreasonable.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Are you worried that the way the office is laid out makes it look like you are a receptionist to the person who sits behind you? That might be the perception with a desk directly outside of an office, but that’s not usually the case in cubicle set ups. Cubes are the great equalizer — everyone is equally miserable.

      1. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

        No, I sit in a bank of cubicles that are divided into sections. Though I am sometimes the first person people see as they walk down the hallway, I don’t look like a receptionist or general assistant. Though, sometimes I get asked directions by visitors to our floor, which can be annoying.

    6. AngryOwl*

      I think this might be a personal thing, as I don’t think most people equate desk location with hierarchy.

    7. Winter Red*

      I think you need to reframe your thinking about this. This sounds like a very normal office thing, and making a big deal out of it will not reflect well on you professionally. Try to keep reminding yourself that it’s just a desk, it doesn’t convey any information on hierarchy to others, and that it’s not a big deal. You’ll probably find you adjust to her sitting there quickly once it happens – your brain is just used to things being one way and doesn’t have anything else to compare it to yet.

    8. Meredith Brooks*

      Honestly? Reading this thread and your replies, it sounds like you have expectations that aren’t reasonable. You didn’t tell your boss until after the fact that you were interested in moving your cubicle. You’re dismissing a very similar seating situation for reasons I don’t understand. (Maybe because your new coworker is a man or because you’re worried people will think he’s senior to you because he sits in a cubicle near you) I suppose my question is, knowing the seating arrangements won’t be changed, what reasons would have made you feel better? And if the answer is nothing than you are indeed being unreasonable.

      1. Sensitive Girl Diaries*

        I would have liked my boss to maybe talk to me about the cube before assigning it to the new person. Even if the decision remained the same, I’d hope my feedback would be considered. But, since we didn’t talk about it, I never got the opportunity to share my thoughts on it.

        2. Annie Moose*

          Why would your boss discuss it with you, though? It’s just an empty cubicle like any other cubicle, right? That’s what it sounds like from your description, after all. It’s pretty normal for managers to just go “Right–the new person will sit at the empty desk here” without needing to consult with other people. You did raise a reasonable objection (“it’d be more convenient if we sat next to each other”) and your boss gave you a reasonable answer (“that’s technically a different department’s desk”).

        3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          It’s not very reasonable to expect to be consulted on seating assignments unless you have some sort of supervisory position. You sound like you’re trying to create a hierarchy where one does not exist. Are you insecure about having a new coworker and you wanted to establish that you are “higher” than her?

        4. TGIF*

          That does not seem like a reasonable request. Most of my department is in cubicles and you go where space is free. The only time I saw a special request granted was one coworker asked to move to a cubicle closer to a window for her seasonal depression and it only happened because that desk was free at just the right time, I don’t know if they would have let her switch just because she asked.

        5. N.J.*

          Not to sound harsh, but why would or should your boss care about what you think about who would be assigned to that cubicle? Do you have a compelling reason that you could give as to why your feedback matters? Were you hoping the boss would ask you first so you could have the cubicle? We don’t generally get to pick our work neighbors or where we sit, so it’s just something you’ve got to get over. If you want that cubicle, ask, maybe the boss will say yes, but remind yourself that it would just be the boss being nice, not a right or something you are entitled to.

        6. Jules the 3rd*

          Expecting management discussion about seating assignments is not in line with most office norms. As you can see from the responses here, it’s wildly out of the norm. Your boss doesn’t mean anything by it, and if you push it, it will bring your professionalism into question.

          Deep breath, and let it go, forever. Do not mention it to the new hire, do not ask to trade spaces, let it go.

        7. valentine*

          You have at least until the person starts to ask to sit there yourself. Maybe say it’s because there’s less distraction via the foot traffic. If you’d be speaking to the same person about it and they remind you of the hierarchy discussion, tell them you see what they meant.

          Is there no cubicle wall between you and the one in question or are the walls low enough for the person there to pretty much look over your shoulder? If so, think of ways to alter the space (plants, whiteboards) to minimize his impact.

          A lot of these replies seem very harsh. I hope you’re okay.

    9. Autumnheart*

      It sounds as though the boss is doing a perfectly reasonable thing, and it is appropriate for your boss to not factor your objections into her decision. You don’t have any standing to decide where anyone sits, and if the cubes are in fact not arranged according to hierarchy, then it doesn’t make sense at all to change the seating arrangement based sole on one person’s perception of how random people might visually perceive the team’s hierarchy. The actual hierarchy already dictates who is and isn’t the boss.

    10. CM*

      You know what? We’re not in your office and we don’t know what the vibe is there. I’m not going to tell you this is a weird thing to be stressed about.

      The bad feeling you have about letting the new person sit behind you may be a sign to think about how you’re feeling about the office hierarchy in general, and if you’re happy with how you’re being treated. The seating arrangements might sound like a weird hill to die on, but they could be that this symbolizes a bigger issue you’re having.

  18. Nervous Accountant*

    And a bunch of Random stuff—

    1. We made a giant switch in our CRM and it’s utter chaos. Madness I tell you. Madness.

    2. “Sorry I’m super swamped right now.” Takes 4 breaks a day.

    3. “I swear no one pays attention to me.” Puts my emails in a filter and ignores them.
    4. Our HR is… well let me backtrack, so if yall remmeber Kevin, the asshole, she said that his references said “he doesn’t play well w others” and apparently never shared this with the other managers. Had she shared that he wouldn’t have been hired. FML.

    5. Did I mention it’s been madness all week, new portal, lots of chaos. My mgr is out sick so it’s a miracle I found time to drink my coffee .

    1. LCL*

      Re #4-I’m laughing loudly at the situation. Not at you. How do you think he managed to get hired? Was he an exceptionally charming interview?

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Hmmmm he does have years of experience and has some strengths. Possibly that. I’m super annoyed with her lately but biting my tongue.

    2. Tara S.*

      Our CRM upgrade was such a shitshow, they’re still cleaning it up two years later. Best of luck that yours gets up and running sooner!

    3. Emma S*

      Totally agree with #2. I’m trying to help our travel coordinator with a big trip for my bosses because she is swamped. Yet I’m never able to find her when I need to ask a question because she is either on a very long lunch break or chatting on the phone. You’re not swamped, you’re distracted!

    4. HBucket*

      If the reference (presumably one chosen by the new hire) said that then what AREN’T they saying and how in the AF does any HR person think that they should hire them anyway??? I don’t care how great they are at their job if they get a reference like that!

  19. Partly Cloudy*

    I know that handwritten thank-you/follow-up notes after interviews are normally Not A Thing anymore since everyone uses e-mail. I had an interview recently and the recruiter (external; works for a staffing company but is friends with the hiring manager at the client company) is kind of insisting that I write a handwritten note in addition to the e-mail. He brought it up twice, once before the interview and once after. I’m really hesitant to do it because of today’s norms and also based on some other interview prep information he gave me that I found to be… off. (He told me to wear a dark colored suit – I don’t own a suit so I wore my standard interview outfit – and when I got there I saw that MANY people were wearing jeans, including the hiring manager). Thoughts?

    1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      It sounds like he’s out of touch with contemporary workplace norms. I’ve found Allison’s advice about resumes, cover letters, interviewing, and thank yous to be extremely helpful, so I recommend checking out the AAM archives for advice that makes sense in 2018. Good luck with your job search!

    2. [insert witty username here]*

      Ask your recruiter why they’re insisting on a handwritten note. Ask if they know that the hiring manager specifically likes it, because otherwise it seems pretty dated. You can even bring up that the advice about the suit seemed to be vastly different from what everyone else was wearing. See what they say.

      1. Yorick*

        Yeah, since he’s friends with the hiring manager, he might be insisting because he knows the manager likes it

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          This is what I was wondering. I guess I’ll pick up a blank note somewhere and put it in the mail.

          To clarify, I did send an email already.

          1. Yes Minister*

            Oh, if you already emailed I wouldn’t send the handwritten note too, that’s going to look weirder than just one or the other.

              1. Partly Cloudy*

                Thank you! I won’t. :) This is the answer I was hoping for and if it comes up again with the recruiter (which I really hope it won’t, it would be weirdly aggressive if he brought it up a third time) I’ll push back gently.

          2. Natalie*

            For what it’s worth, I think you can just… politely say no. I’ve pushed back professionally with external recruiters before (no, Jan, if I’m leaving a job after six months I can’t just say I’m “looking for new opportunities”) and I’ve never been fired as a candidate before. The recruiting firm makes literal 10s of thousands of dollars from your candidacy.

    3. LKW*

      Email will get there faster but a physical note will never be a wrong move. Ask him if there’s a reason, since it will be several days before it gets to the hiring manager’s desk.

      Being overdressed at an interview (professionally) will never be counted against you. The opposite will.

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          I didn’t mean *I* would’ve worn jeans, just that I got a picture of a much more formal environment than it actually is. And like I said, I don’t own a suit so I wore my standard dress pants and blouse and felt totally comfortable.

          1. LKW*

            I’m sure it was fine. The recruiter has likely had feedback that people came dressed down and he wanted to avoid it happening again.

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I have no clue if anyone still does this, but a loooooong time ago I remember having to specifically submit a piece of handwriting that was going to be looked at by a handwriting analyst.

      (Of course, these days, who writes anything? Everyone under 30 has a dreadful hand except for people who make a point of practicing it.)

      1. Dragoning*

        I know plenty of people under 30 with good handwriting–not quite sure why you’re making that assumption.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Then you must know plenty of “people who make a point of practicing it'”, as I wrote.

          I require people to be able to do handwork for certain tasks (there is no other efficient way to do these tasks). The proportion of people in my firm under 30 who have dreadful writing and printing is by far the larger part.

  20. I Want to Tell You*

    Interviewing Question:

    I’ve decided that it’s time for me to embark on an aggressive job search in January—December is my busy season—and I have an interview question relating to being asked about what you don’t like about your manager. I know conventional wisdom is to not badmouth your manager, but is it okay to give an answer with regard to management style? I’m thinking of saying something along the lines of my boss being non confrontational to a fault in that he doesn’t effectively deal with problem employees or advocate for us with upper management. The hope is that I can screen out potential bosses who are like this, but would answering the question this way invite too many red flag-questions? Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I think this wording might be a red flag, because if you don’t like that your boss is non-confronational to a fault, someone who doesn’t know you might read that as you being confrontational.

      I think if you start it off with a compliment (“they’re great at this and this, BUT…”) it might soften it. You can talk about management style in a way that suggests an attempt to sound more neutral: “I’m more of a problem-solver, while his style is more complaisant, so we didn’t always agree”. I’m looking for a better adjective than complaisant, but something along those lines.

    2. Shark Whisperer*

      I would focus on yourself and what kind of management styles work or don’t work with your work style. Something like “I work best when I get consistent feedback on my work and my current boss isn’t able to provide that.” or in your case, “I feel more confident and able to take risks when I have a manager who actively advocates for our team with upper management, but I never saw any evidence of that with my current boss.”

      The person asking this question doesn’t actually want to know what’s wrong with your current boss, they want to know what kind of manager you jive with with and what kind you don’t.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s a weird thing to ask—what you don’t like about your manager? It makes sense to ask what management styles you prefer or thrive best under.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      One problem is that you don’t know if they have some connection to your boss–is he “Fergus, the guy dating my little sister” or “Fergus, that jerk” or “Fergus, whom I see at industry things once a year or so.” Your answer needs to convey that you are not saying Fergus is a bad person, just that you may not have meshing work styles. e.g. “He’s extremely laid back, and I find more set direction helpful.”

      Of course the ability to read the interviewer will really help here, and that’s a skill not everyone has.

    5. Less Bread More Taxes*

      What about saying something unrelated when they ask you why you’re leaving, but turn this into a question instead? Ask them what their management style is, because you work best with problem-solvers that are good communicators and willing to nip problems in the bud rather than drag them out. Something more eloquent perhaps, but you get the idea.

    6. Gaia*

      I’d say you’re looking for a culture that is focused on the development and growth of the staff. Including a culture of management that is quick to provide and address feedback on processes and people.

    7. LKW*

      I would turn it around and outline what behaviors you saw from your best/most admired managers. What tells you that you’re working with a good manager or a great manager?

    9. Emilitron*

      I’d go with stating how you had to change to accommodate him. The read-between-the-lines is that he’s doing it wrong, but what you’re saying is how you can adapt to the needs of the situation despite what you’d prefer. “There’s nothing I dislike about him directly and my experience in his group has been good, but one thing I had to adapt about my working style in his group was [to be more willing to advocate for myself]. In other circumstances I’ve found [that a very pro-active manager can help with corporate dynamics up and down the hierarchy] but this was a circumstance where we [did a lot of our own team dynamics resolution, and learned to handle things ourselves]. I’d like to think that this has helped me be able to read and respond to a lot of different management styles.”

    10. AnotherJill*

      Even though the question is inherently negative, you should still put your answer in a positive light. For example, “I work best with managers who are advocates for their employees” or “I always thrive with managers who are effective at identifying and resolving personnel issues”.

    11. Clementine*

      Are you sure you’ll be asked this question?
      I avoid any bad-mouthing if I possibly can. You can convey interest in the current role without saying there’s anything wrong with your current company (I’ve done this successfully several times).

  21. Snow Drift*

    Need some newbie LinkedIn help.

    I got a BS at a large, well-known university that’s excellent for networking in almost all of the U.S. I got an MS from a small, private university that is not at all well-known in my current area. LinkedIn seems to prioritize whatever school shows up most recently, including it in your profile snapshot and suggesting connections based on it. Is there any way to force it to prioritize the older school, other than removing the dates of graduation and physically dragging the bachelor’s degree above the master’s degree?

    1. hermit crab*

      You can definitely switch what appears in the snapshot! Click the little pencil to the right of your profile picture, and you can edit the information in your “intro” section. There should be a drop-down menu with your various educational credentials, and you can choose which one appears.

      I don’t know if that changes anything about the suggestions it gives you, but at least it will change what other people see.

      1. Snow Drift*

        Thanks! When I switch that way, it still flips the order in the education section down below. It may not for others, though…I’ll have to ask a friend to show me how it looks from her account.

        1. hermit crab*

          Oh, interesting! I didn’t realize it would do that. If nothing else works, maybe you can actually write your preferred school into your snapshot text? A lot of people use the auto-generated text, but I think you can enter your own. For example, I’ve seen some profiles with a tagline like “teapot professional looking for consulting opportunities.”

    2. Janey-Jane*

      If you look at your profile, in the summary area towards the top, there’s a pen in the upper right corner. Click that, and you can edit which school shows. That may help.

  22. Karen from Finance*

    Hi Everyone!

    I’m looking for advice on how to compartimentalize emotions at work. I sometimes deal with sensitive information that could affect my coworkers and friends and know it will get easier in time, but is there some sort of strategy to not be affected in the meantime?

    Thanks,

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Do you have a safe person you can talk to when you feel overwhelmed?

      I had some sensitive situations come up when I was working in higher ed and had a few occasions where I just had to walk away from my desk and talk to my supervisor to work through my feelings.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Not really, as I’m a one-woman department which means I report to the Board, and anyone outside them may be affected by the data we discuss (plans for the company, budget cuts, etc).

        For lower level stuff I vent with my coworker/friend and she’ll always ask if I look upset, but even if I were willing to share sensitive data (which I’m not), I wouldn’t trust her with it anyway.

        So for now I’m unloading it all on my partner which honestly I doubt is healthy in the long term.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Does your company have an EAP? This might be a good thing to discuss with a therapist.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Yes! If this is sensitive work stuff that’s happening regularly, therapy is a great place to put together a toolbox of strategies to use long-term.

    2. BeanCat*

      Ooooh. Emotions – I love the good ones and the happy rush, but the bad ones I feel so acutely in turn.

      Would it help you to write these things down? I wad dealing with an upsetting personal thing at work this week and taking a few minutes to jot it down let me see it, take a breath, and come back to it later.

      If the information is sensitive enough it can’t be written, I try picturing each emotion as a little sheep in a field. They flock to me and I pick each one up to acknowledge it before placing it gently over the other side of the fence. When I’m ready I’ll go check in on the sheep. But trying to physically “put” it somewhere helps.

      Good luck and please take care of yourself!

      1. Yorick*

        This is a good idea. Even if the information shouldn’t be written down, you can journal about your feelings in general.

    3. lazuli*

      I’m a therapist, so I’ll suggest therapy! But also I find that just getting involved in other, distracting work-related tasks/projects can help. Other ideas:

      * Telling yourself, “Yes, this is sad/upsetting information, but I can’t change it or talk about it now, so I’m going to set it aside and focus on X.”
      * Reminding yourself of the ethics of your job. I once had to hold info from a work friend that really affected her, but because of my position, I wasn’t allowed to share it with her. Reminding myself constantly that I was upholding a higher ethical standard helped a bit.
      * Giving yourself a certain time of day to feel the emotions/ruminate on it, and if the emotions or thoughts come up at different times, telling yourself, “I can only worry about these things from 6pm to 6:15pm,” and pushing it back till then. Also, make sure you do set a cut-off time for the ruminating!
      * There’s a thought-stopping technique of just imagining a Stop sign or hearing/seeing the word “STOP” every time you notice the thoughts coming up. You’d still want to give yourself time to process later, but it can be helpful in the moment (e.g., you’re in a meeting or having a conversation with someone).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t think it’s possible to be totally unaffected by some types of info. For example if you find out that people are getting laid off.
      In this example here, I found out a slew of people were getting laid off. By chance the boss asked if I would take X project. It was a risk because the deadline was tight. I could get a serious reprimand if we failed. But it would mean that the people to be laid off could work two more weeks. I took the project and the risk so people would have a little more time to find jobs.
      This is a case of where I knew confidential information and I was in a position to lessen the blow a tiny bit.

      There are other times where there is not much you can do except force yourself to look at the WHOLE picture not a little part of the story. I had to fire someone, this always sucks. I made a list of several strong talking points to get myself through it.
      My first talking point was to make me reality based. “This is part of my job. From time to time I may have to fire people.”
      My next point was to broaden my perspective. “I can’t make the rest of the crew carry this person’s workload. I have to think about the entire crew not just this one person. And I can’t just think about how *I* feel here. It’s not all about me, only part of the story is about me.”

      Rather than compartmentalizing, I tend to be a fan of backing up and backing up to see a bigger and bigger picture. Sometimes when we look at things too closely it’s too hard/painful. We need to look at the whole picture and the different aspects going on, in order to balance our thoughts.
      And this is something I was able to use in my personal life, too. Bad Thing would happen with home/family/whatever and I would make myself back up and back up until I understood the big picture explanation why Bad Thing happened OR I understood how to minimize the impact of Bad Thing.

      If none of this resonates with you or you cannot see yourself being able to apply it because things are Very Bad, you may need to consider moving on. I had a job where people were sick and/or dying. I could only do that job for so long and then I had to move on for my own well-being. I went to the point where I could not cope with the huge amount of confidential Bad News I was receiving.

    5. Karen from Finance*

      Thank you all for this advice. I don’t think I am able to fit therapy into my schedule at this time, although I fully support it in general and I’ve done years of it in the past for my depression/anxiety. Will definitely make it fit one way or the other it it escalates up to a certain point, though – one of the tools my past therapy did give me is an ability to self-monitor my mental state and realize when it’s crossed a certain threshold. So yes, I’ll absolutely be keeping it in mind.

      For the other advice, lazuli, BeanCat, Not So NewReader: thank you. These are specially helpful and I will be coming back to this post for reference.

  23. Murphy*

    How big of a deal is it to put one quick top coat of nail polish on at work? I’m in an open area where nobody sits near me (the cube next to me and the one behind it are empty, as are the two behind me) and I’d be doing it first thing in the morning when the offices less nearby are also empty.

    Non work related: For mental health reasons I’m struggling with biting the crap out of my nails and keeping them painted and not chipped is super helpful to me. Putting on an extra layer or two of top coat (one at at a time) helps them chip a lot less. And doing it in the evening at home during the week is really hard for me because toddler.

    1. blink14*

      I wouldn’t do it, the smell can linger for a long time. Would you be able to do it outside or in your car, if you drive?

      Flip side, have you thought about doing gel or powder dip polishes?

        1. blink14*

          True gel polish is supposed to last longer, but you’d need to do it at a salon and have it removed at a salon, as removing it at home can damage your nails. At home gel, like Essie Gel Couture, will probably get you a week, maybe a little more, with absolutely no chips (the top coat is great too).

          Powder dip isn’t as big of a thing, at least where I live, but from what I’ve heard, it lasts even better than gel. Again, you’d have to go to a salon for that.

      2. Murphy*

        Oh, and I could do it in my car, but I’d have to wait for it to dry completely before I could clock in and start working.

        1. jack*

          If you can from a time and $ standpoint, go to gel. It’s 100x better than regular polish. I’ve never found a good at home one that works, so I’d suggest going to a salon.

          1. a heather*

            Essie gel couture is pretty good. Not quite as good as a salon, but you can also take it off with regular nail polish remover.

            1. blink14*

              Agree with this – even using the Essie Gel Couture top coat on regular nail polish, I get a good week with no chips.

          1. Murphy*

            No. I have plenty things I can do at my desk that involve minimal typing. After a minute or two, even typing is OK. If I did it in my car, I’d have to wait a while until I could carry my stuff up to my office, take off my coat, etc.

        3. Eve*

          I do it frequently in my car on the way to work. I sit in my driveway after my seatbelt. My hands are basically on the steering wheel the whole time so it is a great time to let them dry on the way to work.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        I was going to bring up the smell. It will smell like you’re giving yourself manicures (and pedicures?) even if no one sees you doing it–like you must have whisked the bottle into your drawer when you heard footsteps.

        I wouldn’t put on nail polish and then type, so it will suggest that you were wasting more time than the minute or two of polish application.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Pretty big, I’m afraid. The fumes carry, and they linger. I’ve had the same issue with nail polish helping to stop me from picking at my nails, so I understand this is important and isn’t really a grooming thing, but I’d still draw the line at doing it at work. Have you tried a quick-dry top coat at home (Seche Vita is great) or a gel manicure?

      1. Murphy*

        At home I can’t do it until after my daughter goes to bed, and I find that when I do that, even if it seems dry by the time I go to bed, in the morning it’s not smooth anymore. I get the impression of my sheets or blankets pressed into it. It’s happened a bunch of times.

        1. blink14*

          This has happened to me too – I use the Essie Gel Couture top coat with every polish I use, including non-gel. It dries pretty quickly, but I leave about 2 hours before finishing my nails and going to bed.

          There are also drops/oils that help your nails dry more quickly.

        2. Makeup Addict*

          Have you tried Seche Vite? It’s amazing, my polish is properly dry very quickly and I don’t get any marks like those you describe. I highly recommend it!

    3. hate being late*

      I agree with other commenters re: the smell lingering. And the other thing I’d be thinking if I was your boss/coworkers is that this person doesn’t have enough to do if they are painting their nails. That doesn’t meant that’s the case, but it might look that way.

      2. JanetM*

        I remember, long ago, the receptionist where I worked took just a second to clip a hangnail while her computer booted up. The senior attorney felt that if she had time to “do her nails” she didn’t have enough work to do. *sigh* The paralegal / office manager talked him down from that ledge, and later warned all of us to go to the bathroom if we needed to do anything like that.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Noooooooooo, don’t do it.

      That’s a very strong smell that lingers for hours. It will make a LOT of people uncomfortable or unhappy.

      Sounds like your best option will be to do it before work, either before your commute or in your car. (And yes, that means you’ll have to wait to clock in… but does that mean if you do it once you’re clocked in you’re not able to work while it dries? That… doesn’t seem ethical.)

    5. Tragic The Gathering*

      Strongly advise against this unfortunately — seems like one of those personal grooming habits best left at home, lest you become a “why does that person in my office do xyz at work?” story. The smell lingers and can be strong.

      Could you do it in your car (with the windows open) before you walk into the office?

    6. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Oh man, I always do this! Reading these comments is making me feel terrible about all the times I’ve done it (I use it to stop nail biting also, so it’s vital I fix those chips).

      What if we switched to doing it in the bathroom?

      1. blink14*

        I think the bathroom, smell wise, could be even worse. More enclosed space would make the smell linger even longer.

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I don’t think there’d be a problem with doing it in the bathroom as long as you don’t hog a stall or a sink while doing it (might not be enough space).

        Luckily, I have access to a lab where I could theoretically stop in and do that and the smell would not be noticed there.

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        No, that’s worse — the smell will be concentrated in a small space.

        If you need to do this during work hours, you need to do it outside or in your car.

        Signed,

        A fellow nail-biter but this just isn’t cool

    7. JustaCPA*

      FWIW, I used to bite my nails also. I found nail stickers (I use some made by a MLM called Jamberry but you can find easily enough at drugstore) and for the first time in my life (50+ years) I have pretty nails. First time took me almost 45 minutes to apply (but Im kind of meticulous about it). It takes me about 15-20 minutes now and they last 2+ weeks. Also, no smell – just need heat. I use special heater I bought for it when home but you can use hairdryer, car vents or hand dryer in bathroom as well.

      I agree with other replies that you should NOT use polish in the office. Just way too smelly.

    8. Yorick*

      Yesterday I was having breakfast at a coffee shop and the woman behind me was putting on nail polish, so my egg sandwich tasted like nail polish.

      I vote for not doing it at work.

    9. Alfonzo Mango*

      IMO it’s not a big deal. It’s just one quick top coat. The worst they will do is tell you not to do it again.

    10. Ron McDon*

      Here in the UK I use two really good Rimmel nail polishes, don’t know if they’re available in the US though.

      Rimmel 60 second nail polish: really does dry in 60 seconds, so you could apply in your car before going in to the office.

      Rimmel super gel nail polish: has a thicker, gel-polish like consistency. You put on two coats of the colour, then add the super gel top coat – I do lots of manual stuff day to day, including typing, and it lasts a good fortnight without chipping.

      1. jolene*

        Ask the people around you. I wouldn’t mind at all. In fact it would be nice to know I could do the same.

    1. Shark Whisperer*

      I’ve never gotten any questions like this but I actually think #14 ” You have to get from point A to point B. You don’t know if you can get there. What would you do?” isn’t that bad of a question

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I read about this one and the point is seeing how you respond to a question that has a whole lot of possible valid answers, because there’s not really A reason. Yours was one of the valid answers to the question itself, others were:

        – A round manhole cover cannot fall through its circular opening, whereas a square manhole cover could fall in if it were inserted diagonally in the hole.
        – Circular covers don’t need to be rotated or precisely aligned when placing them on the opening.
        – A round manhole cover is easily moved and rolled.
        – Human beings have a roughly circular cross-section.
        – It’s easier to dig a circular hole.
        – Round castings are much easier to manufacture using a lathe.
        – They aren’t, necessarily: non-round manhole covers exist.

        As with a lot of these open questions, I assume the point is to see how you respond and your attitude and approach in general.

    3. Gumby*

      We asked brainteasers in interviews but they did have correct answers. Not getting it right wasn’t a deal-breaker, but we were looking for candidates to be able to explain their reasoning.

      I was once told I basically got a job based on my answer to a similar question. Apparently me “I think the answer is [A] but let me just verify that” followed by me writing down an decision tree was enough to convince the interviewer that I was organized / methodical / thorough enough to handle a quality assurance job.

      1. HBucket*

        Yes, I think I’d have hired you based on that also!! Nobody does that in an interview, and I think it’s awesome that, while you showed confidence, you also showed that you are (as you noted) organized, methodical, and thorough!

    4. CM*

      “3. You need to check that your friend Bob has your correct phone number, but you cannot ask him directly. You must write the question on a card and give it to Eve who will take the card to Bob and return the answer to you. What must you write on the card, besides the question, to ensure that Bob can encode the message so that Eve cannot read your phone number?”

      The answer is “gouge Eve’s eyes out before you write it down,” right? That’s what I should blurt out during the interview? Just checking.

  25. Anon de plume*

    We had to let someone go this week. She was the editor of a publication we decided to fold. It was sudden but not totally unexpected due to lack of traction/ad sales. Her email box has been left open for a bit. Her reply message states: “I am no longer employed at Company and Publication is no longer being maintained. If you have any job openings or need to contact me, email@email.com.”
    We were surprised, to say the least, about the job openings comment.

    1. MAPS*

      Almost the exact same story was shared below by the poster “WellRed”. Weird that you both had the exact same thing happen to you?

  26. GoMe!*

    I’m applying to graduate schools and it’s quite the field change, and I emailed a professor this week and he said I was qualified and we talked about working in his lab! I’m ecstatic, and desperately hope I get in! :D Wooo women in science!

    2. Deryn*

      How exciting! I just finished submitting my PhD applications for this cycle on the 1st, so I know exactly that ecstatic feeling! Here’s hoping you get good news!

  27. lyonite*

    Okay, HELP. I have an interview today, so of course my allergies decided to kick in and my eyes look like I’ve been on a 72-hour crying jag. Concealer only helps to the point of making it clear that I’m aware of the problem. So, do I say something? (“How are you?” “Doing great, but boy, I wish my allergies would calm down.”) Or just act cheerful and well-rested and hope they figure it out? (And somehow resist rubbing my eyes for the next six hours, so I don’t smear my makeup everywhere.)

    1. Four lights*

      I would say act cheerful. For under the eye I would try color corrector, I find it works a little better than concealer.

    2. Thrown into the fire new manager*

      I would mention something. I can remember years ago interviewing a contractor for some house help and he showed up with really red eyes. I can remember being worried that he had been smoking pot. Of course, it was probably fatigue but I think mentioning why your eyes are red couldn’t hurt.

    3. Meteor*

      Perhaps you can try to address it light-heartedly at the beginning of the conversation, if you’re sure it’s noticeable. Something like, “I apologize if it looks like I tear up today – it seems that this weather is making my allergies kick up!” If it’s really not that noticeable, no need to even mention it. Good luck!!

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are they just red, or are they watery? Mine get watery, so when I don’t want someone to think I’ve been sobbing in the bathroom, I dab at them with my ever-present tissue and say “allergies, ugh!” or “sorry, allergy eyes” and they usually commiserate.

    5. Bunny Girl*

      Make-up artist here and a heavy seasonal allergies sufferer. Have you tried allergy eye drops? They are a life saver for me. Also, if your eyes are red, try dabbing a bit of green tinted concealer around them before your concealer. It will help offset the redness. If you can, try not to put any other eye make-up on besides the concealer. You can play up your other features – brows, a little blush, a neutral lipstick, and still looked polished!
      As for mentioning something, I think you can! Just be good natured and cheerful about it. Just a quick -“Sorry about the watery eyes! My allergies didn’t get the memo that I had a meeting today!”

      G00d luck!

      2. BuildMeUp*

        I second the eye drops – and I would recommend trying Zaditor (orange box). It’s more expensive than standard allergy eye drops, but it used to be prescription-only and I’ve found it works a lot better than regular allergy drops!

    6. Uncivil Engineer*

      Say something. I had an interview at the tail end of the flu when I still had red eyes and a slight cough. I wore no makeup. I had no choice but to tell them up front because I didn’t want to touch anything in the room (germs!) including their hands. I nodded and waved from several feet away instead of shaking hands. It felt odd at the time but it turned out not to be a big deal.

    7. Not Today Satan*

      If it’s very noticeable, I’d say “excuse the eyes, bad allergies.” Otherwise I wouldn’t acknowledge it.

    8. LKW*

      Yes, say something. Just do a “Whoo! What a day! I woke up to allergy madness!” or whatever works. It happens to all of us. Point being you’re rolling with it – which for me is a tick in your favor.

    9. just trying to help*

      I think your response above nails it. Can you take Claritin or Benadryl to help without it making you drowsy?

    10. Maggie May*

      I went to the hair salon yesterday and I think I got some product in my eye – so I look like I have pink eye right now. I’m just trying not to mention it….haha

  28. Kramerica Industries*

    I’m on a project management team and we just learned that we need to attend an in-office “boot camp” for a 4 days next month to learn all about marketing and image. Activities are meant to help us promote user acceptance and hype when launching our projects. Topics may include advertising, branding, image, social media, and promotion.

    My problem is that I tend to feel anxious/sick whenever we talk about marketing. I’ve been in my current role for 2 years. Before joining project management, I was with marketing and it was awful. My boss would berate us for not hitting targets and the company itself used some pretty unethical practices to push products (e.g. advertising on the dark internet). I’ve come to the realization that that job really did a number on me. I get really anxious and nauseous whenever someone brings up marketing tactics in my new role, even though there’s inherently nothing wrong with it. Usually it’s only a part of a meeting (maximum an hour long), so I can deal with it.

    But how am I supposed to deal with 4 full days of marketing activities and training when I get this anxious reaction? I don’t want to spent 4 days feeling sick. I really wish I dealt with this by seeing a therapist sooner, but unfortunately, it’s not something I can fix in a month. Is there anything I can say to my current manager to try to get out of this mandatory boot camp?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      In the case of normal work things that had become anxiety triggers for me, I found that avoiding them just made it worse. What worked better was to incrementally get used to them again in a more neutral or positive context. For example opening my email in the morning became a trigger because my boss would send late night nasty emails. I scheduled time to check my email every AM, and then gave myself a reward right after (like going to the fancy coffee place). It retrained my lizard brain to not think EMAIL=BAD all the time. I think a month is long enough to try this approach – maybe start small, watch a marketing video on youtube, ask a friend who works in marketing how their job is going, etc.

      I do recommend a therapist, as it’s never too late to see one. Also if you go the route of asking not to go your boss will likely want to know why, and possibly want documentation if you describe it as a need for a medical exemption, so that’s something to consider. You might search for AAM threads about plane-phobic people who are asked to travel for work, and how they handle it.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Is this marketing with the same company? If they’re willing to advertise on the darknet, they’re not going to care about your anxiety, so don’t mention it to your boss. Some possibilities:
      Try to get out of it:
      1) Get *super* busy – offer to cover for others / etc.
      2) Remind your boss you were in marketing just two years ago and ask if you can choose to step out of some sessions, to deal with all that busy
      3) Ask if you can review the boot camp materials independently instead of during the camp. Because Busy! Offer to write up a ‘here’s ways this intersects with my project’ to demonstrate you’ve done the review.

      Try to cope if you do have to go:
      1) Ask for a copy of the agenda / notes as soon as possible
      2) Read up on Mindfulness therapy this month, and do some practicing. Notice the anxious feeling, name it, and talk to yourself about it.
      3) Practice Progressive Relaxation (one site with instructions in my name link) – every night over the next month as part of going to bed, but especially before before the camp days; during meetings (only up to your waist / chest in meetings, whatever you can do discreetly); and in bathroom / lunch breaks.
      4) Take advantage of every possible break to get up and walk. Up a flight or two of stairs if possible. Get the big muscles working.
      5) If there’s a session that you think will be particularly rough (bcs, say, ex-boss will be running it), set up a customer call for just that time period. Unless the boss agrees to let you miss things because ‘Busy, and Recent Experience’, you can only do this once in the four days, so use it wisely. This is where the agenda is your special friend.
      6) Do SERIOUS self-care before, during and after – haircut before, massage or spa day after, arrange for somebody else to make dinner / clean / drive the kids / whatever minor daily stresses you usually do.
      7) Focus on the positive: marketing is supposed to be finding customer needs and then letting customers know you can meet the needs. Think about your projects / customers and their needs, and how this marketing work found those customers, for example.

      Good luck…

    3. Lalaroo*

      I’m not sure if there’s anything you can say to get out of attending, but I have a suggestion for how to cope. If you’re able to get an appointment with a psychiatrist or your GP, you could request a prescription for something like Xanax. I have an anxiety disorder, and Xanax was SO helpful when it first manifested. It’s not the kind of thing you need to take for a while before it starts working, and it kicks in really quickly, so it might be useful for those four days.

      Also, breathing exercises really help. I learned that your body is physiologically incapable to feeling anxiety (fast pulse, light-headedness, etc) while you’re breathing deeply, calmly, and consistently. You can breathe in for a count of 5, then out for a count of 5, and if you do it through your nose people around you won’t even notice. Sometimes when I’m really anxious a count of 5 is too long, so I’ve even started at a count of 2 – as long as it’s deep and rhythmic it works.

  29. Here and there and everywhere*

    I have a question about drug tests. I’m in the process of transferring from temp to permanent and I’ll probably get drug tested because of government contracts and stuff. I have prescription Concerta that was filled in in October. The doctor told me I don’t need to take it every day, so I haven’t. I still have a few pills left, and I take it when I’m working, but not every day. So my question is, if I test positive for amphetamines or Concerta, is my prescription valid? There’s no expiration date on the bottle but I only had 30 pills filled in and the instructions say take 1 pill per day.

    I also have a prescription for bupropion that I’m going to start after I finish my Concerta. I just can’t afford to keep taking Concerta, even with insurance it’s too expensive for me. Also, I can’t go to the doctor to renew my prescription because I can’t afford it right now. Unfortunately, bupropion can also give a false negative for amphetamines and it’s not advisable to stop it cold turkey, so I’m still afraid to start taking it, I also want to get my money’s worth and finish my Concerta first (which I love BTW, it’s great at work). Any advice on expired prescriptions and drug tests?

    1. Gaia*

      You have a valid prescription for it, you’ll be fine. Im not even sure it will show up on the drug test, however. I took a similar medication and it didn’t register (and I took it daily).

      1. Here and there and everywhere*

        What drug were you taking?

        The pharmacy specifically told me that both Concerta and bupropion can show up as amphetamines. I know there’s a way to distinguish between Concerta and amphetamines (like Adderall, thank God I’m not taking that) but Concerta is also a controlled medication in itself and could be abused.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          The pharmacy is correct, but as others said, keep taking your meds if you need them. When you go for the drug test, I’d mention it to the tester so they can make a note, which will be passed along with your results to the employer. And of course, mention that you have a valid prescription. I doubt it will be an issue. Medication of this sort is widely prescribed and employers know that. Good luck on the new gig!

          1. Here and there and everywhere*

            I’m just worried that my prescription is old. And I’d rather not let my new job know I’m taking psychiatric drugs :/

            1. Natalie*

              For what it’s worth, the information about your lawfully prescribed drug is something EEOC would consider confidential. (It’s not an explicit law but is in their various compliance guides.) That doesn’t mean it won’t be shared with your new company, but the new company should keep that information within HR and not share details with your manager or any other person that doesn’t need to know beyond passed or failed.

            2. Gaia*

              It isn’t old. It is a valid Rx of mom expired medication. No one will even question this, I promise.

            3. Pharmgirl*

              Do you have a bottle with the prescription label from the pharmacy? The prescription label will should have the date dispensed as well as an expiration date (usually 1 year out from date of dispense). I would bring the prescription bottle and explain that you only take when needed. It’s common for many people to only take medications like these on work or school days, resulting in a small supply build-up.

              1. Pharmgirl*

                Forgot to add, just make sure it’s not past the expiration date. There legally has to be an expiration date, either on the manufacturer’s bottle or prescription label, even if it’s tiny!

        2. Gaia*

          Just because they can doesn’t mean they will. The drug tests can be calibrated to screen out the levels that are found in prescribed medication. And even if they did, you’ll have disclosed your prescription which will align with what showed up on the test. No harm, no foul.

    2. Kaitlyn Westlet*

      Don’t stop taking your meds! :-) You should be totally fine. In my experience they are only testing for street drugs. When you go to the lab/clinic for testing you will list any medication you are taking. So they will be aware there is a possibly of something showing up and can do a more specific test if needed. A prescription isn’t expired until 6-12 months after it is written, so if you can easily get official proof from your pharmacy or doctor’s office if needed. I’m on bupropion as well as some other meds and am always nervous about drug testing, but it is always fine. Congrats on going to perm!

      1. foolofgrace*

        I used to take Ritalin and it never showed up on a drug test. Take your meds. If something pops on the drug screen you can always produce a doctor’s note.

    3. fposte*

      Can you give the doctor’s office a quick call to confirm that it counts as current? Even the pharmacist might have an answer, for that matter.

    4. LKW*

      Bring the bottles. Make sure they write down the prescriptions or that you clearly communicate them. It should be fine.

    5. JanetM*

      When I worked for a company that drug tested some but not all applicants (depending on where they were going to be assigned), we told them to fill out the form completely, with “everything you put in your mouth, including vitamins and OTC meds. If you’re taking prescription meds, list those as well.”

      They screened only for street drugs, and the form was in case of false positives; the lab could check whether they needed to do a more precise screen.

      Granted, that was 30mumble years ago, and things have probably changed since then.

      1. Here and there and everywhere*

        Unfortunately, ADHD drugs can also be street drugs and some are straight up amphetamines. There are people getting high on Ritalin or Concerta, so I’m worried that a 3 month old prescription might make it look like I’m one of those people :(

        1. Elizabeth Proctor*

          I think the fact that you still have pills left of a 3 month old prescription signifies that you’re probably not using them recreationally and in a dangerous manner, otherwise they’d be gone

        2. Autumnheart*

          It won’t. Having taken prescribed meds for ADHD myself, I’m personally aware that they’re prescribed month-to-month, but I’m not sure that knowledge is common to the general public, and even if it were, I don’t think people would consider 3 months to be “old”. Your prescription is valid and you’re taking them under a doctor’s oversight. You’re fine. Hang on to the prescription bottle, and maybe speak to the prescribing physician for a note verifying your legitimate need for it just to CYA.

        3. Bry*

          Get a letter from your Dr. stating that you were instructed thst it was OK not to take them as directed. I work at a doctors office and if we saw a rx for 30 days of ADHD meds and it was after 30 days and the patient tested positive we would consider the patient non compliant. SO I would have documentation with you that your doctor agrees with how you have been taking the meds.

          1. Here and there and everywhere*

            Very useful, thank you!

            Isn’t it common not to take ADHD meds every day though? I’ve heard of so many people not taking them during their days off. Doesn’t this also help with tolerance? My dosage is definitely not as effective now as it was in the beginning.

            Do you treat non controlled medications such as bupropion the same way?

            1. Pharmgirl*

              Yes, it’s quite common for many people to only take these meds for work or school days. A letter from your doctor explaining this will help. I don’t think 3 months is that old – depending on your state law, controlled prescriptions can be valid for up to 6 months.

            2. ArtsNerd*

              Bupropion needs to be taken consistently! Weaning off/withdrawal wasn’t nearly as bad for me as Zoloft but it’s still nothing to mess around with.

              Also as a layperson, I had no idea that 3 months after a prescription was “old” for ADHD meds. I was thinking that 3 months is nothing — I was stockpiling my daily asthma inhalers for a bit since I only needed them seasonally, and am still working through the backlog due to cost/coverage weirdness. They’re a few years old at this point.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      What I’ve always done when I have to show up for a drug test (sigh) is to take my prescription bottles with me so the testers can log what they are and see that they’re valid prescriptions. With the expired one, you can just tell them that the scrip ran out and you haven’t had a chance to renew it yet.

      I know it seems really intrusive, but they’re not supposed to tell and it heads off any questionable results.

    7. OBMS*

      I have to say that as a physician, I would consider a prescription written and filled 2 months ago to be an active, current prescription. Patients do not necessarily take pills every day (even if I tell them to). I would tell the person at the drug test that you have an active prescriptions for the Concerta and the bupropion. (stated as a person that has no real knowledge of how drug tests are given and interpreted in the real world).

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      Your doctor may be willing to write you a letter without an office visit if you need one, just saying you are under their care. You’re not likely the only patient rationing your medications for cost reasons, sadly.

      1. Here and there and everywhere*

        Actually, I just don’t take Concerta during weekends and holidays and with Thanksgiving weekend, I have quite a few pills left.

        But I’ll be stopping the medication completely because of the cost :( The price is ridiculous. At least with other medications I could just go to Mexico (I live close to the border) and get them for a fraction of the price but I wouldn’t take that risk with a controlled medication, going to prison for drug smuggling is the last thing I want.

  30. sorbus*

    I’ve had a raging UTI for the past 2 weeks. It’s awful. Can’t sleep without pain meds, can’t stop going to the bathroom every 15 to 30 minutes. I’m on my second course of antibiotics because the first didn’t do anything.

    My question is: how much work is it reasonable to miss over this?

    1. Another worker bee*

      I too have suffered from frequent, severe UTIs, so no work advice, just sympathy. At 2 weeks you should honestly go to the ER and get some IV antibiotics – that’s where you’ll get the good stuff, and they work fast.

    2. ExcelJedi*

      As much as you need to, or as much as you have the sick days to cover? It sounds like an out-of-the-ordinary infection, so a cookie cutter answer won’t work. It’s not reasonable to try to work through excruciating pain, even if that pain comes from a source which is usually (relatively) quick and easy to work through.

      I would tell my boss I had something like “an unusually persistent medical condition which makes it difficult to work, but which you hope to have under control ASAP” – not a UTI specifically.

    3. Key lime pie*

      Uggghhhh. Been there. Do you have the kind of job where you could work from home due to a temporary medical issue? When it was me, I did a combination of that, plus being the weird co-worker using the restroom every 30 minutes :/

      1. sorbus*

        I can work from home, and it won’t make much of a difference since both my teammates are in a different office. So if this is still going on next week I’ll try working from home.

        That said, our office culture really discourages working from home while sick and prefers that people take time off. And although I’ve run through my sick days my manager is pretty understanding and has let me use vacation time (we have non-accruing aka “unlimited” vacation) for sick days rather than take unpaid leave.

    4. Nanc*

      When a condition involves stuff coming out of your body at frequent intervals I say you can miss as much work as is necessary until it’s back to normal purging!
      Is it possible for you to work from home? If not, can you get a doctor’s note saying you need to be off until they say you’re recovered?
      Get well soon!

    5. Can't Think of a Name*

      As much as you need to! I think because they’re so common, we forget – a UTI is still an INFECTION, and does have the possibility of creating other major issues, especially when it sounds like you have an unusually severe one. Don’t feel bad about missing work, especially as it sounds like you wouldn’t be able to be very productive if you had to go in. If you can swing working from home, that would be ideal, but if you can’t or are in too much pain, don’t sweat it. It’s more important to take care of yourself and health. I hope you get well soon!

    6. Anon attorney*

      I don’t have any advice to add, but I feel you. A UTI is misery. Hope your bladder gets the antibiotic memo soon.

    7. sorbus*

      Update: just got back home from urgent care.

      All cultures negative. It’s not a UTI. It’s probably never been a UTI.

      The soonest I can get in to see a urologist is January 9th. :(

      1. OperaArt*

        Same thing happened to me. My frequent “UTI” ended up being interstitial cystitis, now under control. But that full discussion is for the weekend thread.
        Stay home if you need to. Work from home if they’ll let you.

      3. ten-four*

        Wait WHAT? Surely there is some way to get you to a doctor who can diagnose you before FOUR WEEKS from now? With pain levels so high you can’t sleep? That’s bonkers! If you go to the emergency room can they get you to a person? Can you call literally every urologist in town? I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

    8. Paquita*

      I had a UTI last year. I thought it was the flu. Didn’t have ‘normal’ UTI symptoms. I ended up being out a week. Missed the big eclipse party at work :( My first and hopefully last one!

  31. Rusty Shackelford*

    How early is too early to make a work-related call if you suspect you’re calling someone’s personal cell phone, not a business line? I have customers who don’t have phones at their worksites, or just find it easier for other reasons to leave their cell phones as contact info. Am I correct in assuming that 7 am is too early to be returning these calls? And that 8 am is reasonable?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If I remember correctly, the permissible hours for telemarketing/collections are 8am to 9pm, so I’d say you’re safe in that window.

    3. Anon From Here*

      For clients, I try to wait until 9:00 a.m. unless it’s extraordinary and unexpected news. For colleagues, I’ll actually try for 8:00 a.m., especially if I know they’ll be in court that day, so I can try to catch them before they go in.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        These are all people who have requested I call them. If I’m calling someone for my own purposes, I wait until later in the day.

        (Also… wow! What a jerk! Different time zone?)

    5. LKW*

      Depends on the industry. Construction – early is fine. 7am wouldn’t be unreasonable. Or ask them the next time you’re in touch.

        1. LKW*

          If it’s not an emergency – I’d say 8:30 – 9 earliest. If only because people are getting their kids up, out the door, to school/day care/ driving to work, etc.

    6. Nita*

      7 am is OK in some lines of work (construction for example). For typical office jobs though, it’s likely that if you call at 8:30 you’re not waking the person up, though they might be driving and unable to pick up. Or they might even be in the office starting at 8. If you can, ask them ahead of time when they start, so you’re not guessing.

    7. mr. brightside*

      Depends on their work hours. If you know they start at 6am, calling them at 7am is fine. Otherwise, I’d wait until 9am, just in case they start at 8am and have a bunch of stuff they need to do before handling calls.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If I knew they started at 6 am, I’d have no problem calling them at 7 am. ;-) The problem is that I don’t know when their work day starts.

        1. valentine*

          Call whenever works for you. Assume they’re availing themselves of methods to avoid disruption.

    8. Hillary*

      I’ll call whatever number they’ve given me during normal business hours for the region. I’m in the upper midwest, I’ll call people from around here from 8:00-5:00. I wait until 9:00 local if I don’t know the “normal” hours for their area.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      I would try and contain these between 9-5 unless you know they have work hours that start at 8am.

  32. Folklorist*

    It’s your Early-December-Holy-Crap-I-Have-So-Much-to-Do-Before-the-Holidays ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!!
    Go and do something that you’ve been putting off (that super-painful email? That dull-as-dust spreadsheet?) and come back here and brag about it! Wipe something–anything!–off that list and take a burden off your mind.

    1. ElspethGC*

      My housemates and I are hosting Christmas dinner for a couple of friends before we go home from uni for the holidays. A *lot* of housecleaning that was being procrastinated got done this morning, including a full deep clean of the bathrooms and properly cleaning the laminate floors.

      I’m now sat in my room painting my nails and being bitter because one housemate has decided that she’s doing *all* the cooking to prove that she can (there was an Incident last year) and not letting anyone else do anything besides prep work, even though I’m the one who cooks the most and actually enjoys it. Also, volunteering to clean the bathroom this morning led to me being the one to do *all* the cleaning, and apparently I’m the person that sees all the things that need doing that nobody else bothers to do, like actually emptying the almost-overflowing bin *before* we dump the giant bag of turkey giblets on top of it and probably spill them everywhere. And being on my hands and knees cleaning the floors while the others were basically just folding napkins. And then sitting down to grab something to eat for lunch because I hadn’t had breakfast got a reaction of “Oh, have you finished with the vacuuming upstairs, then?” I know it’s probably not as bad as my hormones are making it out to be, but I’m just feeling very frustrated right now.

      1. Jessi*

        Why didn’t you say something?

        I cleaned both of the bathrooms and took out the trash and did x,y and x. I think it’s some one else’s job to vacuum

  33. Meteor*

    Such a great week. My husband and I recently moved for his job, and I’ve been wrapping up my old job remotely. This week, I finally got a wonderful job offer for a role I’m really excited about, to start in January!!! I think the director of the team is really brilliant and I’m excited to learn from her. Alison’s advice really helped in the job search and interview process – I am so thankful and relieved to have it all set for next year.

  34. Christmas Snickerdoodle*

    What do you share in a one-on-one meeting with a boss who is new to your organization?

    I’m 2 months into my new job and our new non-profit President is coming online next week. I knew going into this job they were hiring as the previous President was retiring. We’ve met the new President and had lunch with her.
    I have a meeting with her on Monday so she can get to know me. ** How deep does this conversation go? **

    I know she’s read my LinkedIn, and hopefully my resume. I don’t think I have to belabor my previous roles/organizations. Should I tell her that because this is a new position, we’re still working out the kinks and we’re not entirely sure all of its responsibilities? Should I tell her that I was hired part-time and that if the job were to grow, they’d have to hire someone else or I’d have to work from home (the commute is long and I’m dog mom to daycare dachshunds). I’d prefer my current p/t office job and p/t work from home consultant projects. All of these were conveyed in my interview and from which I was hired.

    I know this job could easily be cut in favor to save funds to hire a fundraiser, a position that’s been vacant for 6-mos now. She doesn’t strike me as someone who would consider that route, but it’s a possibility.

    1. Lauren*

      I think you’re getting way ahead of yourself. Just have lunch with her, and be honest if these things come up on the assumption that you both want what’s best for both you and the organization.

    2. just trying to help*

      Take a step back from your apprehensions and just be open minded and authentic with her. Let her tell you about herself, what her approach might be, what her goals will be.

  35. My face is gross*

    Big old cold sores at work! Is it professional to wear a bandage? How do you cover them without makeup?
    I tried the polysporin patches, but just found people noticed it even more.

    1. Meteor*

      Cold sores are the worst! If you can put something like Aquaphor or Vaseline on, you can usually apply light concealer on top. That helps obscure redness and the Aquaphor’s oily texture prevents it from looking so rough and dried out.

    2. Linzava*

      I know this may sound weird, but cold sores don’t bother me. If someone has one, I don’t judge or feel grossed out. A lot of people get them including my fiance. We’ve been together 10 years and I’ve never gotten one, so I’m realistic about them. If it really bothers you, concealer is your best bet. I know you said no makeup, and I’m not sure of your gender, but there’s no shame in concealer either way. It’s magical if you learn how to apply it properly. You might need a green, a yellow and a skin tone concealer to layer it properly and there are videos on YouTube that can teach you. My fiance doesn’t bother covering them at all and doesn’t let them make him self conscious, which is what I recommend.

      1. My face is gross*

        I’m grateful at least one person feels that way, haha! Not caring is the most appealing option, but I suspect not everyone is so calm about oozing face sores.

        1. ArtsNerd*

          Another “don’t care” person here. Cold sores happen! I know not everyone is reasonable, but at least you can take comfort in the fact that plenty of folks aren’t fixated on it.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        (Side track… he should just keep in mind that the virus that causes it can be nasty to immunosuppressed people, elderly, and infants. No kissing babies when he feels one acting up. Google has very convincing photos if he says I’m overreacting.)

    3. Lalaroo*

      I get cold sores when I bite my lips too much, or when I’m really stressed, and you’re right – it’s really tough to cover them! It’s too late for this incident now, but I’ve found that Abreva actually works just like it claims. Now when I get that weird tingly feeling that lets me know a cold sore is coming, I start applying Abreva immediately according to the directions. It’s been over a decade since I’ve had a cold sore get to the point where it would be noticeable from anywhere further than two inches from my face.

  36. Is This Common?*

    Has anyone (who doesn’t work in the military, law enforcement, fire/rescue, or other jobs where following orders is necessary) ever had a job where they would follow their boss on anything because they were such a good leader? Do you think this is important or just a bonus? I would really like to hear why.

    It’s been suggested recently that, in order to move up in our organization, I need to be a leader like this. However, in 20 years, I have never felt this about any of my bosses, regardless of how high they are in the organization. But, I’m not really a joiner to begin with so that could be affecting my outlook and I’m curious as to how common this is.

    1. Asenath*

      I don’t think it’s common (outside, as you say, the fire fighters, armed forces etc where having someone automatically follow orders can make a life-and-death difference). Maybe your organization is structured that way, but it does seem odd. I’ve had bosses I respected enough that I would generally accept what they suggested because they generally had good ideas. And the ones I obeyed because it was a legal request and I didn’t want to quit or get fired, but in my opinion my own solution would have been far superior. But I’ve never had a boss I would follow unquestioning on anything.

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Ooh I think a boss that expects you to blindly follow orders is a pretty bad one. I only ever had one like that. Not being able to offer alternative methods was infuriating and also led to mistakes in the work (when anything is perceived as oppositional, that’s what happens). All the great managers I’ve had have encouraged me to think for myself and problem solve. To me, that’s what a boss is for. Otherwise, you’re just working as an assistant to someone else.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Yes to this. I work for some absolutely wonderful managers who are widely recognized at our company as being exceptional bosses, and one of the things I really value is that I’m able to question and suggest. Obviously if they tell me to do something it’s expected I’ll do it, but we bring different perspectives to the same work and I may think of something they never would have because of it. If I said “actually, I see a potential issue with ____” or “what if we did ____?” or even “I don’t understand and I want to — before I start can you explain why ___?” I know they would genuinely consider what I said, and that makes me feel really valued and even more fiercely happy to work for them.

        In your circumstance it really highly depends on who has suggested you need to become this type of boss. Is this expectation coming from the person/people who hold the power to promote you? That would carry more weight, but I would also ask what being ‘that kind of boss’ concretely means to them and how you can actionably improve.
        Or is it coming from someone well-meaning but without decision making power? I would file that as potentially part of your company culture but not treat it as a direction.

    3. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Nope. And not important.

      And, FYI, even in jobs where following orders is necessary, there are limits to following orders, even in a legal sense. There have been Court Martials over this.

    4. bdg*

      I haven’t.

      But we’re encouraged to have a questioning attitude in all things, so blindly following a leader is discouraged. I am a joiner, generally, and I still wouldn’t want to have a boss like that. That’s how you end up in jail for fraud or something lol.

    5. lazuli*

      I have had one boss like this (who just retired, and I’m left bereft!), but the main reason I would follow her on anything is that she was totally ok being challenged/questioned on anything, and she often changed her mind based on our input. She also tended to let us run with projects/ideas that were working, without interfering much, while always being available for questions/support. But she was a super-creative thinker who often came up with, “What if we try this….” sorts of proposals, often not very fleshed out — which is exactly the type of proposal most likely to freak me out — but I learned over time to trust her instincts. She was also really good at hiring people who were good at doing the detail-oriented work of making such projects go, which helped.

      So I don’t know if that’s really what your advice-giver means, but I did adore my old boss in kind-of that way.

      1. Anonygrouse*

        I feel similarly about my boss — I trust his decision making and would follow him pretty much anywhere, but a crucial reason for that is because he doesn’t expect his reports to blindly follow whatever he says. But, I think a high-but-not-pathological degree of loyalty is more a bonus than a requirement. Communicating effectively with your staff (and putting the kibosh on people who ignore or undermine your decisions) is sufficient. In fact, if people are “o captain my captain”ing all over the place that is probably more a bad sign than a good one.

        1. Is This Commom?*

          The advice-giver definitely meant that I should be so inspiring that my staff should want to follow my lead. I just think that is a rare quality. There is no one here that inspires me that way. It’s nice to see a few of you have found someone like that, though.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Oh your boss and my boss must be siblings.
        I feel this way about my boss, too. For my part in the story I make sure she knows that I will do as she finally decides no matter what my opinion is. I say, “In the end it’s your call of course and I will do what you decide.”

        But she often asks my opinion on things and sometimes she asks really hard questions. This makes me think that SHE thinks I am up for the challenge. I admire her because she will listen to what I have to say, weave it into her own conclusions, then she arrives at an idea that is FANTASTIC. I am wowed by what she comes up with. She applies herself to her job, the woman definitely works at her job.

        One thing I look for all the time is consideration of others. I admire bosses who are able to consider how their actions and their instructions impact those around them.

        The leaders you named at the beginning of your post must lead through life and death crisis. This is a different type of leadership than running day-to-day operations. Consider a burning building, a good boss is going to take on a commanding voice and order people “This way! This way is safer! Come with me!” This is not how we talk to people under ordinary circumstances. I can honestly say that if I saw a safe way to get out of a burning building my boss might follow me, but if she saw a safer way out then I would follow her. For us it would be a matter of quickly assessing the situation and within seconds the two of us would decide on a route.

    6. JanetM*

      I have had a couple of bosses of whom I have said, “I would walk through fire for [him/her].” But even those bosses, if I thought something was wrong, I’d speak up about it (not illegal / unethical wrong, just “I don’t think you have all the facts” wrong).

  37. Thrown into the fire new manager*

    Curious about health benefits. We have a pretty good ppo healthcare plan from a pretty good national company. They cover just about everything. Prescriptions and tests from out of network providers. Unlimited mental health visits. No referrals for specialists. Most traditional doctors and some holistic doctors in our region accept the plan.. We have some complicated health issues in our family and flexibility is important.

    The deductible and the co-pays went up drastically last year. For us, that was fine. We do have a small company and most employees have been consultants and haven’t taken healthcare benefits (because they want to stay consultants and we know the quality of their work is great). We are expanding now and hiring full time employees.

    We pay fully the healthcare cost charged to the company and offer $1000 to the employee hsa plans. For the employee, the plan deductible is $4000 and the co-pays are $30. Is this a terrible healthcare plan or is it ok considering the company is covering the cost which is about $17,500 per year for a family plan? Not that we can do much about it because 1. small company doesn’t have many options. 2. locked in until the policy renews later in the year.

    1. Gaia*

      That is a really high deductible. It isn’t terrible (and it is made all the better that you cover the full premium and contribute to the HSA) could you explore what it might look like to lower the deductible to $2000 (still high, but more in line with what I’ve seen). Or maybe poll your employees and see if they’d prefer to lower the deductible in exchange for a cost share or lower HSA contribution. You might find that they are fine with the plan or you might find they’d give up your HSA contribution in exchange for lower deductibles.

      1. Thrown into the fire new manager*

        That’s the thing. We can’t change the plan or do anything until April 1. Then all I can do is see what options our healthcare broker gives us. I have been told that a lot of companies have employees paying half the healthcare cost which would be at least $7000 which surpasses our deductible per year. If they just put that into the hsa, they would come out ahead. We were trying to figure out if it’s decent enough.

        1. Gaia*

          And those companies are offering terrible plans. But while yours isn’t that bad, it isn’t what I’d call decent enough unless it is truly the best possible option.

          It is reasonable that you can’t change it now – and that gives you time to ask the people what they want. If you keep this though, the only way it would even approach “decent enough” in my book would be to up the HSA contribution to half the deductible. For someone like me, paying $3000 in a deductible would mean the health insurance would cover exactly nothing each year so I definitely wouldn’t want to be paying part of the premiums.

    2. fposte*

      So it’s become an HDHP? I think those work when they’re offered alongside other options (a lot of people really want access to that HSA space for investing), but it kind of sucks when there’s no other choice. Unfortunately, that’s pretty common. I’m not familiar with possible intermediate mitigations, but I’m seeing some suggestions, such as employer contributions to the HSA premium–I’d dig around to see what you can find and figure out if there’s anything your employer can do.

    3. automaticdoor*

      TBH? My husband works for a big 4 accounting company with otherwise great benefits, and this is WAY more than his does. We have a $300-ish premium per month, a $3000 deductible, and co-insurance outside the deductible. We blow through our deductible immediately on plan year renewal (literally, this year the PY started on July 1, and July 4, we hit the deductible) because he takes insulin (type 1 diabetic) and I take expensive meds for mental health/migraines. We thankfully have the money to front the deductible, but it’s expensive!! So honestly, poll your people, but I’m jealous of your plan!

    4. Schnoodle HR*

      This is an awesome plan. You’re saying it’s not premim to employee and they get $1000 in hsa, which they can roll over year to year. That’s awesome. But if they have copays and an HSA it doesn’t make sense. HSA’s are for HDHP (which means no copays, but they pay up to the deductible then the plan starts to cover). Copays are usually with PPOs and an FSA would be used with that, not an HSA.

      2. Thrown into the fire new manager*

        Actually we do have co-pays with an HSA plan. I don’t know the rules but that’s what we have had for 5 years now
        Thank you for letting me know it’s an ok plan!

    5. MsChanandlerBong*

      It really depends, I think. I think a $4,000 deductible is pretty high, but the $30 copays are fairly low. And is the $30 for Rx or just office visits?

      1. Thrown into the fire new manager*

        I didn’t realize the $30 copay was pretty low. We had $10 until this year so $30 was a slap in the face! that’s office visits. I honestly can’t tell the system of prescpriptions because they have tiers(i think starting at $30) and the majority of ours are done at CVS and their charges are lower than any copay so I barely see the copay there.

        1. Qwerty*

          I disagree that $30 is pretty low. All the plans I’ve been on have been $10 copays except for specialists.

          For your employees, they’ll be comparing it to their previous plan with you and to what kind of plans your competitors have. If a different company in a different field has a worse plan, then that comparison won’t seem relevant to them.

        2. Natalie*

          To me, $30 is about average, so I wouldn’t call it low or high myself. But this kind of stuff probably varies by location.

    6. MoopySwarpet*

      The deductible less the $1k into the HSA sounds to me like $250/month for health insurance. I’m paying about that for my portion of our health care with $35 co-pays and $3,500 max OOP. It might depend a little on the max OOP for your plan, but on the surface it doesn’t seem that bad. Especially for insurance I’m not paying for.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      3000 deductible crippled my finances for the last 4 years for a minor health issue in a regularly healthy body. Just to put a personal story to it.

    8. Elizabeth Proctor*

      There’s no premium? That seems like a decent plan to me, then. It’s really a $3,000 deductible since the company contributes $1,000 to the HSA. So if the employee puts $250 into the HSA per month (which is less than the premium my family pays for our low/no deductible plan) they cover the deductible.

      $30 is an average co-pay to me. Mine is $20 now, was $25 on my old insurance, is $10 on my mom’s they-don’t-sell-this-anymore state employee health insurance.

    9. Orange You Glad*

      The fact that your company is covering all the premiums is a GREAT benefit.
      I personally think your plan is great. I’ve been on a HDHP w/HSA since I began working and I’ve been able to come out ahead with the HSA investing options. My company has always split the costs of premiums so I’ve always had a $50-75/paycheck health insurance cost.
      Where my company went wrong is for years they funded our HSAs $2000/year which came pretty close to covering the deductible. When we were purchased last year, the company HSA contribution dropped to $200/year while the deductible and premium cost went up. The new HR folks couldn’t understand why people were upset when we were essentially getting a $2k/year pay cut (many people left the company due to the drop in benefits).
      I guess I’m trying to say the HSA contribution is a great benefit but if you ever reach a point where you can’t afford that any longer, you may want to find another way to compensate your employees to offset the increased health costs.

    10. Kerr*

      It’s definitely not terrible, especially since you cover the premium cost and contribute to the HSA plans. For someone who only visits the doctor a few times a year, it would be great. For someone who needs regular care and medications, it could be prohibitive. The trick with an HSA is that you don’t get the money up front, so you’re stuck if you have a bunch of bills at the beginning of the year, or if you spent all your HSA money and have nothing for next year.

      How high is the out of pocket maximum? (HDHP plans can go up to $6,750 for individuals and $13,500 for families.) For example, my HDHP plan has a similar setup. After calculating premium cost, employer’s HSA contributions, and deductible, my cost for the plan plus meeting the deductible would be around $2,000 a year. It works for me, and I’m happy to not pay much per paycheck.

      BUT – it covers everything after you reach the deductible. If I needed regular checkups and tests and prescriptions and I had to pay $2,000 out of pocket just to reach the copay stage, I might prefer a more expensive plan that I didn’t have to fund up front.

  38. The Other Dawn*

    My job will be ending in a couple months due to my bank being acquired. I didn’t turn down a job offer–I didn’t get an offer at all. Our HR held some job search “best practices” sessions before they left, which were quite useful; however, one thing I didn’t necessary agree with was how to phrase it to interviewers as to why I’m leaving the company. It was something along the lines of saying that the bank was acquired and my job is being transitioned out. Something about that wording just seems unnecessarily dressed up. HR said that it should be about the job and not about me. I see nothing wrong with saying the company was acquired and I didn’t receive a job offer, or maybe the company was acquired and my job was made redundant. To me they all mean the same thing, but the way HR recommended saying it just seems unnecessary. And banking is a small world, so any bank I apply to is going to know that my bank was acquired and many people lost their jobs. Does anyone have a better way of saying it, or is the wording they recommended the way to go?

    1. Gaia*

      While my layoff this summer wasn’t due to an acquisition, I had to deal with an HR that really really didn’t want me telling people I had not been made a job offer. I chose to say that there was a restructure and, as a result, I was laid off. Simple and true. No unnecessary fluff. And it didn’t imply I’d done something wrong, unlike the verbiage my company wanted me to use.

      Good luck in your job search! I hope you find a great new role that is excited to have you!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks!

        I feel as though saying my job was made redundant is the way to go. It’s true–the acquiring bank has five people that do what I do–and it doesn’t feel like I’m trying to dress it up. (I’m not a fan of having to dress things up to please someone else.) I think HR (for my old bank) was trying to say that saying something other than “my job is being transitioned out” would make it about me, or that I was badmouthing the new bank.

        1. Gaia*

          Right. Rather than “I didn’t get an offer” which might raise questions stick with “my role was made redundant due to the acquisition.” True and something your industry will understand!

        2. Autumnheart*

          Yep, I’d totally go with “The bank was acquired by another company, and my position was made redundant.” It’s true, and such a thing is pretty commonplace. If an interviewer wanted to follow up on why you didn’t get an offer from the acquiring company, you can simply elaborate with, “They already had several people in equivalent positions.” But I can’t imagine this would stand out in any way that would reflect negatively on you personally.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I see nothing wrong with saying the company was acquired and I didn’t receive a job offer, or maybe the company was acquired and my job was made redundant.

      To me, “I didn’t receive a job offer” strongly suggests that they didn’t want to keep you on, not that there wasn’t a position for you.

      As you say, every other bank in the area is going to know what happened, so in an interview I think you could just say “Oh, as you know, Second National Bank bought us out, so a lot of us ended up without jobs.” For an application, I think “the company was acquired and my job was made redundant” is fine. I don’t know why your HR has a problem with that.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If I heard they were acquired and you “didn’t receive an offer”, I would wonder why you didn’t receive an offer. Was there a performance issue? Were you particularly difficult to work with? The phrasing they suggest is more neutral in that regard and would be less likely to raise questions in an interviewer’s mind.

    4. Anon From Here*

      Agree with Gaia. Sounds like HR has an ulterior motive about your saying “laid off,” but you were laid off. The only way I’d dress it up, maybe, would be to say “they restructured my team in the acquisition and eliminated the position I was in.” But that’s just a lot of syllables for “they laid me off.”

    5. Persephone Mulberry*

      transtioned out vs made redundant…potayto, potahto. “Transitioned out” sounds extra Corporate Speak to me (and now I’m thinking of the scene in Emperor’s New Groove where Cuzco is telling Izma she’s fired) so I’d go with “made redundant,” personally.

  39. Bee's Knees*

    There’s a giant bin in my office full of candy. Like, at least five pounds of the stuff. It’s going to have to move away from behind by desk, and pronto. Not only so I don’t eat it, but so people aren’t walking around my desk and into my bubble of personal space to get to it. Not a fan.

    Also, to give you an idea about how old the phone system is, there’s a sticker on the phone letting me know it’s a volume control telephone. What a time to be alive.

    1. Christmas Snickerdoodle*

      I have a new job thus a new office. In that office is a big bin of hard candies which prompts people to stop in my office and take one – annoying! I moved the bin to the break room. Next day – it’s back in my office!! Apparently the previous person liked it when people stopped in to take a candy and conversation ensued.

      Our boss recently installed new phones, but alas we still have the old phones on our desks. Incoming calls come into our old phones but I have to make outgoing calls on the new phone. Indeed, a great time to be alive.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        My office is also new. There’s also a closet full of snacks that I’m not thrilled about, but the candy bin is irksome because several different people have walked all the way around my not-insignificant sized u-shaped desk, and started digging around in it. I don’t mind that people come in, just that they’re in my personal space. And we’re allegedly getting new phones, but who knows when. We’re also still running Windows 7 and Office 2010, so I’m not holding my breath.

      2. valentine*

        Put it right back. If it happens again, put it back empty. Unless someone who didn’t know you moved it viewed the move as a slight to you, it sounds more like people enjoy going into your office, in particular.

    2. Emily S.*

      Eek about the candy. My job used to have candy jars all over with M&Ms and kisses and it was a nightmare. I put on weight (I just can’t resist that kind of thing). Eventually I asked them to move the ones near me, which they did, and then later on, I communicated that I’d appreciate it if we got rid of them. The boss was a cheapo (a good thing in this case), and was happy to be able to save money — so away they all went! Whew.

  40. Gaia*

    I start the new job Monday! It is amazing how many people I know that work in different areas of this government department (I never realized!) and it is encouraging when all of them say “oh YOU’RE Gaia! NewManager is so excited to have you start!

    Especially after how OldJob ended and the blow to my work related self esteem, it feels really good to be the recipient of so much excitement.

    I’m nervous about the job but I think that’s just self sabotage. Its more technical than I’m used to, but they know my experience and seem willing to help me enhance my technical skills (and I learn quickly and tend to have a natural aptitude for this type of work) so….here’s hoping!

    1. Meteor*

      Congratulations!! Sounds like a great place to join. I think everyone tends to be nervous, at least for the first few weeks.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Job nervousness. I’ve trained people for sooo long… The only time I have seen people fail at a job where the two times when the people were NOT nervous. That is how I learned that nervousness comes from a very strong desire to do well. People who don’t care, don’t get nervous and probably will not do well.

      Nervousness keeps us sharp and we need to be sharp for many things, new jobs, doctor appointments, major purchases such as a house, etc. We can allow that nervousness to keep us keen and on top of our game.

      My suggestion is instead of framing it as self-sabotage, frame it as helping you to stay sharp/alert and tell yourself that nervousness goes hand-in-hand with wanting to do well at the new place.

      Good luck and Enjoy!!

  41. Lupin Lady*

    Hi, I’m looking for input on what’s reasonable for asking for reimbursement on personal cell phone use. I use my personal phone for work at least 3 times a week. I upgraded my data plan for an extra $5/month above what I would have needed, but I already had unlimited long distance, so using my phone for work hasn’t added any cost service wise. What amount, if any, is reasonable to ask for in this situation? I feel like the $5/month is negligible, but I’m going to be using my cell phone more often for work moving forward, and I kind of feel taken advantage of.

    1. Billdon*

      If there is no added cost, why would you expect to receive reimbursement? What does the upgraded data plan have to do with using the phone three times a week (that doesn’t sound like a lot). If you had extra costs, you could certainly go to your boss and explain and ask for specific cost reimbursement, but, based on what you described above, there is no reason for them to give you anything.

      1. jack*

        While I think 3x a week is pretty minimal, I don’t agree that just because you’re not paying any extra money for your service doesn’t mean that you should not consider some sort of reimbursement. If your boss expects you to be able to answer and use your phone outside of office hours, they should contribute to the cost.

    2. fposte*

      In my admittedly limited experience, the burden would have to be a lot greater than 3 times a week for work to reimburse you. Like it or not, it’s pretty common for people to use their phones for work.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You may need to keep your itemized bill and only get reimbursed for actual business calls rather than a flat monthly rate — that is typically how you’d go about it as a tax write off, or if you were to be reimbursed for car mileage. Since you’ve already been using your personal phone, look at the last few months bills and do some math to find out really how much each business call amounts to (or what percentage of minutes you use on business calls vs. personal calls) estimate how much more often you think you’ll be using it going forward, and then apply that to what your monthly expense is. So if you use your phone 5% of the time on business calls, it would be reasonable to ask for 5% reimbursement.

      1. Lupin Lady*

        Thank you, that makes sense – even if it’s just to know just how much I use my phone for work.
        The way I see it is that companies should pay for the equipment to run a business, and this includes cell phones for staff if necessary. I routinely use my personal cell phone as a hotspot, need GPS to find a client office, or work from tradeshows and conferences. I just happen to have a generous phone plan which works well for the company, but if I wanted to downgrade to save $10/$20 per month I would incur more costs because my job has me calling people around the country.
        To compound my feeling taken advantage of I’m being paid far below market salary. I recognize Billdon and fposts’s points above, I just wanted to explain myself a little more.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I sympathize but I think some of this falls into the area of a personal expense to be employed — they won’t reimburse you for clothing or shoes, even if they require you to dress a certain way; they won’t reimburse you for driving to and from work, or buying coffee on your way; you probably can’t expect reimbursement for using GPS to find a client’s office or using your cell as a hotspot. If you’re using your phone to conduct business, rather than just get to and from job sites, that would be a business expense.

    4. Autumnheart*

      I would consider it unreasonable to request reimbursement in this context. I might have a different answer if these 3 occurrences per week took up gigs of data and/or hours of your phone use, but it sounds like the burden of these instances is so negligible that it doesn’t have an impact on your personal use. I don’t see any employer considering your request for reimbursement unless you could demonstrate that the significant majority of your phone use was for work reasons. It doesn’t sound like it is.

    5. Midwest writer*

      My last job and this job both pay $30 a month for my cell phone. In return, that number is on my business card. I use my phone for work a lot, though, as a reporter.

  42. Anon nonprofit worker*

    After my former manager left and turned my department of two into one, I’ve been working towards a promotion that has been dangled in front of me for the past two years, and I feel like the goal posts kept being moved along the way. Well another person left and their responsibilities are being absorbed by me. Now we are finally moving forward with the new position, that I will need to apply and interview for, and I asked what the salary range was and I was shocked. Its only a few thousand more than I currently make. I was expecting a much bigger leap, and since promotions are really the only way to increase salary at my corporation I’m really disappointed.

    We have a no-negotiations policy, and I can’t turn down this position without having to leave my job and I really like working here. Has anyone else been in this situation and have any advice?

    1. Rey*

      I have not been in this situation, but everything you describe sounds like this is a situation that you need to get out of. In the short-term, apply and interview for the job to keep yourself employed (unless you’re comfortable walking away from the job and the paycheck entirely right now). Then, think about how long you realistically want to stay there, and come up with a plan to get yourself out. Write up your own job search calendar so you know what you should be working on each day to move your plan forward.

      1. Anon nonprofit worker*

        This is good advice. I really do like the company, and my position is interesting and I have grown professionally since I started so this issue really sullied an otherwise great situation. I’m just so disappointed because I was seeing myself as staying here for years and years and now I’m not so sure. I’ve always gotten good evals so its hard to not take this personally.

        1. Rey*

          In a company that knows how to take care of their employees, good evals translate to raises, because they understand that raises are part of keeping good workers. A company that won’t give raises unless you receive a promotion does not understand how to keep good workers.

    2. BRR*

      From what you’ve said, it sounds like you have to decide if you’ll accept the terms (responsibilities and pay) of this position and stay or accept it and start looking. I’d push back on workload if I could. Can you ask for them to hire another person?

      1. Anon nonprofit worker*

        They won’t hire another FT, but I am going to stress the importance of having a PT staffer with all the new responsibilities.

    3. SB*

      “We have a no-negotiations policy, and I can’t turn down this position without having to leave my job”

      Yikes! Unless I’m missing something, this sounds like a really awful and unfair set of policies. I don’t have any advice, just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re dealing with this situation, it sounds like you’re in a real bind. :(

      1. Anon nonprofit worker*

        Thank you. Yeah, its frustrating. Especially because I actually like working here.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I would almost be tempted not to apply and I might even say why. Their no-negotiations policy is outdated and makes them undesirable to job applicants. They will not get the best applicants out there. Over the long run, their determination to stick this policy could sink their organization.

    4. Autumnheart*

      Your employer hasn’t followed through on promised promotions, and now you’ll be assuming additional responsibilities just for the CHANCE at a promotion that you’re not even guaranteed to get. And the salary for the new job is well below what would be considered fair for the workload, and conveniently enough, they aren’t interested in negotiating it.

      So the question is, do you like your job enough to accept being exploited this way? That’s pretty much what it boils down to. I know how important it is to like one’s job and one’s work–to me, that’s as valuable as money in many ways. But on the other hand, you have bills to pay and a retirement to fund, and it’s not fair to expect you to sacrifice your future just for the sake of a company that doesn’t want to compensate its employees. Don’t shortchange yourself, or give an employer loyalty that they are pretty blatant about not reciprocating.

  43. LurkNoMore*

    Boss is coming in next week and I want to discuss with him the office customer service representative. She’s over 70 now, only works four days a week, has hearing issues and forgets more than she remembers. In addition, she’s had some medical issues over the last three months which has meant many missed days. Because of this, I’m taking on more and more of her work when I can’t keep up with my workload as it is. It’s budget planning time and I want to ask boss to bring on someone next year to help and then eventually take over for the current rep. However, this woman is loved by all and is considered a mother-figure, so I need to tread carefully. Any suggestions?

      1. Asenath*

        Emphasize the “assistant” part of your plan, not the bit where eventually the assistant will be able to do the whole job.

        1. Liane*

          Also emphasize that an assistant will make it easier for the CSR to remain in her role in spite of recent health issues. I know it’s not your goal but since she’s so popular, “keeping beloved CSR” is going to appeal to Boss, but “transitioning CSR into retirement” is likely to make them dig in their heels.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Tell him you need someone to help her, not replace her. And then gently suggest “we don’t know how long we’ll get to have her, so it would be good to have someone who knows the ropes if and when she has to stop working.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep, yep. Show concern for her, that she needs extra support which you are not able to sustain but you can help here and there from time to time. RS, has it nailed here, I think it’s the route I would go.
        If the boss decides to reduce her hours or let her go, then that is the boss’ decision and has nothing to do with you.

  44. Goomba*

    For the first time in years I am at a job that I don’t hate. It’s got 90 percent of what I am looking for in a job. Decent, short commute. Colleagues who I have great chemistry with and work well together. A sane management. And work that I like and enjoy the day to day. I can also shape the position to a certain extent, around my strengths and developing skills I want to get good at.

    The catch: benefits are terrible, sick leave and vacation days are rolled into one Paid Time Off bucket, and I am making $15K less than my previous job. I took a pay cut in taking this job because I have been unemployed for months in my last job hunt and money was running out.

    Am I being crazy for considering another job hunt? Or best to stay put for a while? I’ve only been in the job for less than a year.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Does the good outweigh the bad? For some, the 90% good is worth that other 10%. But if having a job you like with a good commute and good coworkers isn’t worth the $15k loss and terrible benefits (and to be clear, there’s no right or wrong answer here, it is truly up to you) or it isn’t financial feasible for you to stay at that pay level, then you can absolutely job hunt.

      Unless you have a really spotty job history, having one short stint isn’t going to hurt you in the long run, and that’s only if you happen to get a new job offer immediately. It will most likely take you a few months at least anyway, and then you’ll probably be over that year mark. (Also, depending your industry, the value of your tenure length may vary.) And if anyone asks you can always tell the truth – you needed a job so you jumped at the opportunity when an offer came in, but now you’re really looking for a place that is a better fit, one that you can stay in long term.

      1. Goomba*

        Thank you! As far as jobs go I will really regret leaving this one because what is good about it are so good! But taking it was not a lateral move for me from my previous job. It was a definite downward move from my previous position. I was wondering the longer I stay here if it will hurt me professionally or will give a negative perception towards me from prospective employers. Also, this is a contract position with a definite end date in a couple of years. So I always have the option of staying till the end of the contract.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      I got a $15K pay drop for the same reason! But I’ve now been at my current job for over 6 years. Don’t do that. I’m still here because I like the work and people and I’m going to retire soon.

      I’ve had quite a few jobs, and rarely do you find good management, good co-workers, good work, good hours, good commute, and good pay all in the same one. So don’t be in a big hurry to leave what you have – search until you find another that has as many of the goods as possible.

      You just need to be really picky before leaving, which means it will take longer to find another good job. But do start looking. Think about how that $15K per year loss is going to add up over many years of working.

    3. Could be Anyone*

      It can’t hurt to see what else is out there so you can accurately weigh the pros and cons. You can look without being committed to leaving.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I am of the opinion that it NEVER hurts to keep your eyes open and your resume updated.
      However, given you haven’t been there a year, I’d try to wait at least that long before you begin a serious “all-in” job search. At one year, you may get a raise (or not) but it shows some longer stability.
      But like I said, before then it’s ok to keep an eye on your Indeed feeds, and your ears open to your network. If some really great opportunity should present itself, by all means apply.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d want to stay for a little bit so I could catch my breath, so to speak. You know you best, do you feel like you have been through the ringer and you just need a period where your life feels like it’s on an even keel?

      Of course, your main focus is making sure the bills are paid. Does this job cover your basic needs without worry? Would you rather consider a part time job in addition to this job for a set period of time? For example, would a PT job on Saturdays be worth it to you?

      The other thing is because you like the job so much maybe you’d want to put sometime into figuring out how you could advance with this company that you have now.

      And yet another option would be to continue your job search for a better paying job knowing you have the luxury of being picky. This is an option I would seriously consider if I were in a similar setting.

  45. The Quitter*

    Is my HR awful/unprofessional? I am quitting my ft job of 5+ years to do a combination of freelance & pt because one of my coworkers has undergone a profound personality change &is no longer tolerable to work with. HR has given me little guidance on dealing with this person other than telling me I was handling it within professional norms. Anyway, they asked me to a meeting to asknif I had any ideas for fixing the situation, so I had to tell them I was resigning (my boss already knew). They were not pleased but said they understood.

    1. fposte*

      I would expect that to be more a manager thing than an HR thing, like, if this person is unbearable, the manager should be handling that or firing her. But it sounds like it’s a moot point anyway, since it’s not your problem now–congratulations!

      1. The Quitter*

        Sorry, should have specified that this is academia. The person being the problem has tenure. Thanks for the congrats, I’m actually excited about the new work, less excited about the financial instability.

        2. BRR*

          In my experience, behavior has to be quite awful to fire someone with tenure. And even then it’s not easy or quick. Without more details it’s tough to tell but I think they acted ok.

          1. The Quitter*

            Thanks for the replies. I guess I could have worded my question better because I was thinking that HR should really be telling me how they want me to proceed, not asking me what I thought should be done about it. I didn’t ask them to do anything about it, since the problem person isn’t technically harassing me, but only just barely. I’ve only ever made them aware of the problem in case it was having negative consequences for students, as I know it isn’t their job to fix things for me and that the person being the problem wasn’t going anywhere any time soon. Also, some of my soon-to-be-former coworkers think our HR is a bit unprofessional, so I wanted another perspective.

          2. The Quitter*

            Internet ate my reply, let me try to recreate it.

            Thanks for replies. I didn’t ask HR to do anything, which is why I thought it was weird that they were asking for ideas as to how to address the issue, instead of telling me how they wanted me to proceed. I did report that the problem person was doing X and Y and that it might be having a negative impact on students. I did not mention that it was driving me up a wall. Also, some people here think our HR is unprofessional, so I wanted another perspective.

    2. Not Today*

      I hope your being somewhat forced into quitting does not result in the loss of any full-time benefits. Good luck to you, and I applaud you for taking the initiative to change a situation that became intolerable. So many don’t have the courage to do that.

      1. The Quitter*

        Yeah I am losing ft benefits, which is uncomfortable to say the least. It’s better than staying and having stress further erode my health.

        1. valentine*

          It’s rich that HR asked if you’d done their job for them. I hope things get better for you.

  46. Cochrane*

    I’ve got one in keeping with the holiday theme.

    My boss interviewed a guy a couple of years ago that has been trying to break into our company for quite some time now. Seems like a nice dude, but doesn’t have quite the experience that my boss is looking for. He keeps in touch once in a while, hoping for a more entry-level junior role to open up.

    Since his interview, he has been sending a holiday card every year to my boss as well as some peers of mine in the industry. Nobody really sends cards like this anymore (I haven’t gotten one in years). My boss is suspecting that he’s under the impression that sending out holiday cards is his way of keeping his name out there as he goes on with his job search.

    I think it’s a novel way to stand out of the pack, but my boss is leaning toward calling this guy to let him down gently that this isn’t doing him any favours one way or the other.

    Is boss misreading intentions or am I falling for some “gumption” trick?

    1. fposte*

      I think your boss is right, and it’s kind of her to want to let the guy know that this isn’t doing what he hopes.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      Is it actually hurting him, or is it just not helping him? Sending a holiday card once a year is so benign that calling somebody suggesting they not seems a bit cruel.

    3. Yorick*

      Your boss is probably right, but I don’t think it should bother him so much. People do still send out holiday cards, even to business contacts.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Meh, it’s not really novel; I receive holiday cards from a few business contacts (and my insurance agent, dentist, and optometrist) every year but it certainly does come across more like a piece of junk mail rather than a heart-felt personal card. Unless the cards are offensive or overtly religious, I wouldn’t waste time calling the guy up over it though — that just reinforces the behavior because he’s not being forgotten. I’m more perplexed that the guy is still trying after a few years. You must work at a very desirable place.

  47. Environmental Compliance*

    In this week’s What Even News…

    Audit staff have finally left. During the audit, we found a ton of equipment that was missing the appropriate (OSHA required) inspection tags. Strange.

    Head manager asks on updates to fixing this issue. Smokemeister shrugs blankly and says that during a previous third party audit, those were all addressed. Head manager asks about the ones tagged as incomplete during the audit 2 days ago. *cue confused blank look*

    Uh, we were all right there….what do you mean you don’t know what’s being talked about?

    1. lost academic*

      I bet Smokemeister thinks that, at best, having an action item for addressing the tags at the LAST audit meant that that’s all that needed to happen, not that they necessarily needed to actually, you know, TAG THINGS.

      If I had a nickel for every site with these same problems :( (Well, I wouldn’t be auditing anymore!)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That’s probably it, tbh. It’s just….mind boggling to me sometimes. The prior third party audit happened the week before the new audit people showed up. It’s not like it was a year ago, it’s pretty clear that First Audit Guy missed a whole bunch of stuff, and when we did a Full Mind Numbingly Thorough Audit with Second Company, we found all that stuff. And Smokemeister’s the only guy that is in charge of these things, so if he didn’t do them, they didn’t get done magically by the Facility Elves.

        I wish we had Facility Elves. My job would be so much easier.

  48. Sharkey*

    I applied at a startup company in July (for a role that would’ve been a lateral move but also a noticeable gear shift) and was rejected. The rejection recommended that I keep an eye on their jobs page for roles more in line with my experience, and even though I know that could just be boilerplate, I love their product and everyone I met was awesome, so I did keep an eye out. Earlier this week I applied for a new role there that would be a smaller gear-shift and a step up; it fits well with my long-term goals and feels like a great chance to use my skillset in new ways.

    Question is, should I reach out to their internal recruiter, who I worked with last time, and if so, what should I say? I don’t want to look like I’m just applying for whatever (although hopefully my AAM-influenced cover letter will help me out there), but I don’t want to look weird or desperate. I don’t know who the hiring manager is for this role. Thanks everyone!

    1. Reba*

      Hi recruiter, I want to let you know that I’ve applied for New Opening. I enjoyed talking with you and learning about Company back in July and hope we will have a chance to talk again soon. (Optional social niceties) Yours, Sharkey

      Good luck, hope you get it!

  49. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

    Hey folx. Background: I have an interview across the country a week from today. Yay! This is my third interview but my first in-person one. As part of the interview, I’ll be meeting with HR to go over benefits.

    Question: is it OK to ask HR about relocation costs? What they have on their website is vague, it will be a 3000+ mile relocation, and now you can’t deduct moving costs from your taxes. Is this appropriate, or should I wait until I get an offer (knock wood)?

    3. Boredatwork*

      I would 100% ask about the relocation policy. Under tax reform, any employer paid relocation expenses have to be included in the compensation of the employee to be deductible by the employer. Some, more generous employers, will gross up for taxes, so that you’re not left footing the bill for the taxes on these benefits.

  50. Beachlover*

    Three years ago,I had completed my first college internship at a mid sized company for three months . Many of the staff especially the owners and managing director grew very fond of my work ethics and became instantly popular where they were constantly offering me potential job positions and offers even before the internship had ended. However the following year I had a semester of four classes with a heavy workloads and later that summer I had to complete my second internship at a completely different company. To be honest I preferred the second company because it have more in common with my career goals and a better fit for my personality and work life balance. However an employee from the first company whose name is Ceresei who works in the chocolate teapot marketing department informed me of summer job opportunities at that company on Facebook messenger but I had told her that I was already set for my second internship and had to report to the second company the following day. Last year January I had emailed my resume to the first company along with the second company and a few others in the same industry to be a step ahead of my fellow graduates in the job hunt.

    About two weeks later the human resources manager at the first company whose name is Sansa called my house phone and informed me that she had found my resume in the email inbox and ask ed me what position I was interested in and I told her that I wanted to be a chocolate teapot designer then she provided me with the other application information, bank account number and information for the hiring manager.

    Later that evening I told my parents about the job position they cringed because the felt that I was forced to make a decision on the spot without them and disapproved of the job position and wanted me to choose something else. When I contacted Sansa again she told me to send the information to her office and she will be off from work for a few days and would be back shortly.

    After sending the documents at the company which is a very far distance. I had contacted the Human Resources concierge named Arya to follow-up and indicate that I had sent the documents at the security booth for her collection and she had agreed.
    The shocking twist was that when I arrived home I wasn’t aware of the fact that Sansa changed the meeting about the job positions to Jane, the managing director and the daughter of the owners and Fergus, the general manager . It was very weird and frustrating, because Jane neither Fergus is not in charge of hiring for entry level positions.
    While trying to figure it out and questioning the organization of the company about 1-2 weeks went by and started to move on to focusing on the second company (my dream job) and the other ones, but my grandmother, Mary insisted that I give them another chance because she was anxious about me being bored without employment.

    So when I called Sansa again about the meeting she still held on to the story with Jane and Fergus and tried to accuse me of wasting her time in a harsh voice and I later became frustrated by her horrible attitude and pushiness and give up.

    A friend of mine from college named Eliza accepted a job offer from the company after her internship that same year and jumped on the bandwagon of recruiting me to work there too and after a while she started to become as pushy as everyone else insisting that I take the job as if subconsciously she was accusing me of being prideful and picky. However since working there she had three different job positions a junior teapot sales associate, a junior teapot designer and a junior teapot analyst. She did those jobs mainly for the money but I knew that she was unhappy the way she complain about the paycheck and fit whenever we spoke privately and wanted a second job elsewhere. But she eventually resigned this year after a few months.

    A month later my younger sister wanted to visit the company’s teapot marketing department for a school research project, so we went there with my dad. While we were there many of my former colleagues found out about my employment status because they kept asking questions and kept pressuring me with their pushiness to take a job there which irated me. When we left my dad started inquiring about job openings for me at the company despite my displeasure of working there.

    Ceresei told him that they were recruiting new employees for their upcoming spring teapot sale and I must speak to Jane, however she and her parents were on a 2-3 week vacation leave. A few weeks later , I had finally decided to take the job as a teapot designer as a short term placeholder until my dream job at the second company or elsewhere pulls through. But a few more weeks later I had received a call from my mother that she and Sansa had an argument over the phone about a business inquiry and felt disgusted by her lousy attitude.
    I guess I had dodged a bullet? and I also have a very strong feeling in my spirit that I may get the job at the second company at some point.

    1. Bees in my Socks*

      Your parents seem…really too involved in this process? Even if they have a prior relationship with this company they shouldn’t be involved in your job search so much, much less be getting upset at your decisions position wise or interest wise.

      With the reality of working it may be necessary to take a job position that isn’t your ‘dream’ job and you may not be happiest in until such a ‘dream’ position becomes available or tenable for you.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Did your parents already know all these people prior to your internship? Back when I was in my late teens starting working, I couldn’t have imagined my parents being this involved in my job searches. I mean, asking them for advice, or getting put in touch with a potential contact, yeah, sure. But, past that? No.

      1. Beachlover*

        No they didn’t know those people only me. My dad works in th r same industry as the company and the industry is small I introduced my sister to Ceresei. My dad wanted on meeting Jane but she wasn’t around. I had a gut feeling and that the company was disorganized and aware of Sansa’s attitude and their pushiness, but my dad and Eliza was looking at it with rose tinted glasses. My mom wasn’t really a fan of the company anyway after knowing their disorganized practices and how Sansa treated her over the telephone. I am glad that I have moved on.

    3. LJay*

      This is really hard to follow (like I’m not sure what “the story with Jane and Fergus” means, or what happened in the meeting with them or why you were accused of wasting time. I don’t know why a bank account number was involved at any point

      But your parents and other family members are way too involved in your job search. I would focus on figuring out what would make you happy and doing that, and limiting the information you give to the rest of your family. It doesn’t matter what your mom thinks about the position (and honestly, it’s normal for a job to expect you to know what position you want to be hired for when you are applying). It doesn’t matter that your grandmother thinks you’ll be bored without a job. It’s weird to show up at a previous or potential future job-site with your dad and sister (if she was doing a project for school, she should do it on her own). Your dad definitely shouldn’t be asking about positions for you – especially if you don’t want to work there! I’m not sure why your mom was calling them – if she’s in the same industry and calling for work reasons that makes sense I guess.

      And I’m guessing that maybe this is outside of the US, and maybe the parental involvement with the job search is more normal there. I’m just looking at it from my American perspective.

      But I think that, regardless, you’ll be happier if you limit the information you give to them until you are sure about what you want to do. Having people talk you into being unhappy with jobs you were happy with the idea of, having people push you into looking for work when you’re okay with not working until you find your ideal position, and having people inquire for jobs for you that you don’t even think you want is going to be very frustrating.

      1. Beachlover*

        Thanks for the advice, my mom works at a different company not in the industry Sansa was a client asking for a business inquiry. Sansa is very disorganized and was trying to pass the buck to Jane and Fergus to I guess doing her job. Elise has since moved on happily employed as a teapot salesperson at a different company as well as owning a teacups sales company as a freelance side hustle. Her story taught me not to allow desperation cause me take the wrong job.

    4. Llellayena*

      I think you probably dodged a bullet. If I’m piecing this together correctly, multiple people at the company were pushing you into a particular position before you were ready to decide and the one new hire you know at the company has not had a consistent job title or description in the few months she was there. I suspect you would have gotten a similar run-around with that company. And I don’t think it’s unusual for Sansa to shift the hiring to Jane/Fergus. If she said all further inquiries on the position should go through them, then contacting Sansa again was a bit of a misstep (unless Jane/Fergus were not responding to you).

      On a side note, why are your parents so deeply involved in your job search? Your dad asked the company about available openings FOR YOU (while you were present?) and your mom got into an argument with the HR manager!? Your job search should be yours to handle. Your parents can give advice, opinions and support (and if they have industry contacts, they can offer to connect you) but they should not be in contact with the companies you are applying to. I am saying this as a person whose parents each had a different contact at my current workplace. They provided me the contacts, confirmed it was OK that I get in touch and then stepped back and let me handle all contact from that point on.

      1. Beachlover*

        Thanks I have since moved on and focusing my efforts on the second company. I sent a resume/application a few months after applying to the first one, and network with the past and present staff and will give them a call next week about an interview schedule and preparation. Although this was over a year ago. I visited the second company two months ago but the recruiting efforts were more downplayed unless some volunteered to help me or I bring it up first and I felt more at peace there. I am really looking forward to potential employment there. By the way I was at the hotel when he did that

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do you come from a culture where it is common for parents to be this involved? Your mother shouldn’t be getting into arguments with Sansa at all. Why are they handling everything for you and acting as your representatives?

    6. JustaCPA*

      I’m guessing youre not in the US? This level of involvement with your family (your GRANDMOTHER??) is not normal at all for US companies and employees. Perhaps it would help to know the culture around which you are operating?

      1. Beachlover*

        I’m from The Bahamas and I have Aspergers. For the second company, my dad has a preexisting relation ship with the wife of the managing director whose name is Amanda but he and my mom has very little involvement in this opportunity especially with my networking contact , who was a new employee at the company and I still have a relationship with the HR manager, the supervisor at my dream department and some other managers

  51. TwinsCitiesHR*

    Hello AAM Community!

    I am going on maternity leave in two weeks and having a temp step in for the 13 weeks I am out.

    Looking for advice on two things:
    1. Though I have updated most of the contacts about my leave, how should we set up the email signatures? The email is a generic one for this position. Should we set it up as: Fergus Sample, Temp HR Manager or just Fergus Sample, HR Manager?

    2. Should I remove my personal photos and items from my desk to make it more comfortable for them while I am gone?

    Thanks!

    1. Four lights*

      I would remove personal stuff, if only so the person doesn’t have to worry about accidentally messing them up or breaking something. Also (and I don’t know if this is you) some people have A Lot of things on their desk, and another person may prefer to have more actual desk space to work with.

    2. irene adler*

      For #2: Would suggest you remove the personal items/photos in case they get moved or removed during the course of activity while you are gone. Other people are not likely to keep track of your personal items in the same way you are. NOT suggesting theft. Just misplacing objects and not able to find them ever again. It would be a shame to return to work and discover something missing.

      And yes, it would make it more comfortable for the temp so they don’t get the constant feeling they are sitting in someone else’s space.

    3. automaticdoor*

      I’ve seen signatures like “Fergus Sample, Acting HR Manager” before. Not seen “Temp,” just “Acting.”

    4. Ann Perkins*

      1 – “Interim” is a good option.

      2 – yes, if they’re going to be using your office – you don’t have to take them home but you could at least box them up and have them set aside.

    5. Hillary*

      I like Acting HR Manager. Interim implies to me that you aren’t coming back – most of the interim roles I know are getting someone in the chair to keep things from falling apart while the org goes through a full hiring process (which may result in interim becoming permanent).

      1. valentine*

        Acting. Leave at least one photo you’re in so Fergus may look upon it to fortify his stewardship.

  52. Comms Girl*

    I gave my first training ever yesterday – it was slightly terrifying but all in all exhilarating! And we won a new contract yesterday (for which i wrote a significant part of our proposal) – happy days since my contract will be renewed in January, hopefully it will be permanent :)

  53. Anon Anon*

    Just a moment to brag: We just got the evaluations back from a conference at which a colleague and I presented, and our sessions were, by far, the highest rated of the conference.

    … although in the comments one person, while giving a rave review, got my name massively wrong (like, instead of Angelica she called me Susie — no connection at all to my name). Soooo need to work on my personal presence? Ha.

    1. Four lights*

      You need one of those your-name-in-lights things to hang in the background while you present. And get everyone to chant your name before you come on stage. ;)

    2. babblemouth*

      Congratulations! Being an engaging presenter AND bing highly knowledgeable about a topic is a hard combination of talents, but it makes all the difference.

  54. Chereche*

    Despite how you feel and how it may appear, it’s not too uncommon for cubicles to really be assigned to different positions so there really may be nothing more to it than what your boss has said. When I got promoted recently I had to move to a new cubicle, to be more specific to the cubicle that was literally right next to mines simply because the one I was in was meant for X position and that cubicle was meant for Y position.

      1. valentine*

        Your move seems like a lot of bother, unless you physically moving is easier than rearranging equipment or something about the space.

  55. Trouble*

    Today is my last Friday in this job. I wrap up next Thursday. I’m finding the time really really slow and really excited for my new job. This team is not really gelled, I’ve never worked with a group of people so eager to stab their colleague in the back to minimise the work they have to do and just generally be as lazy as possible. I have an inside track at my new place and know it’s not like that there, so I really can’t wait to get started.

  56. Please help!*

    I just started a new job about a month ago (Thanks Alison and the AAM Community) and I am the youngest by about 20 years. Everyone has worked here for at least 5 years, some have been here since our building opened. I have had many conversations with my new boss and 2 of my coworkers about how I need to learn to stand up for myself and speak up. How do I go about doing that? Are there any books or articles I could read to help me do that? It has been mentioned that the people who have been here for a long time are stuck in their ways, and will tear you down if you don’t stand up for everything you have done and for your clients. Thank you!

    1. Bees in my Socks*

      Oof. I’m in a similar situation and can tell you honestly it is the worst for a menagerie of reasons.

      For one, people being ‘stuck in their ways’ and you having to ‘stand up for yourself’ equates to Arguments. Lots and lots of arguments. So many arguments. They are rarely, if ever, fruitful or helpful and just serve to foster more animosity and inner tensions.

      Having coworkers who will ‘tear you down’ is never a good thing, and needing to ‘speak up’ to defend your productivity or work ethics means you have to fight to prove you’re doing anything to others, even outside of actually doing work…

      All around I hate that kind of stuff. Its awful and unproductive. In my office they don’t take you seriously unless you cuss like a sailor, raise your voice, and whoever can shout the loudest has the floor. Its toxic as all get out.

      I don’t have any good coping strategies for you, honestly. For my own mental health I’ve shut up and shut down mostly and checked out… Looking for a new job now. However depending on your industry or style maybe you’re okay with all of the above.

      1. Tara S.*

        I think the advice OP received was not trying to get them to “argue” with their coworkers in an aggressive manner. In healthy work environments, speaking up and standing up for yourself usually just means having opinions and expressing them.

        Say OP tells a coworker they are going to groom the llamas with a flat brush, and coworker says they should use a round brush. OP might be tempted to just go along with the suggestion. But if they wanted to do more “speaking up,” they could say something along the lines of “Oh, actually I picked the flat brush because it’s better at making the llama coats shiny.” Maybe coworker will nod and move on, maybe they will explain why using the round brush is important and OP can reassess. If coworker just says “this is just how we do things,” OP can gently push back with a “I understand, but I’m going to go ahead and try it this way.” It’s about OP to be able to defend/discuss their decisions when someone tells them to do it another way. OP doesn’t need to do this for everything, but as they feel more comfortable in the role, they should practice having and expressing opinions about how the work should be done. It doesn’t have to be confrontational, at least not on OP’s end.

        1. Please help!*

          Thank you both! Luckily, it’s not toxic and I am sorry you are going through that Bees in my Socks, it is truly just about being able to stand up for myself, which I have never ever been able to do my whole life. Tara’s advice is more what I was looking for, just being able to say no the client wants x this time so let’s do x instead of y (even though y is how they have always done it). I just want some strategies to become more confident in my abilities (and I know I should probably go see a therapist to help my self-confidence but I am beyond broke). Thank you!

          1. Reba*

            Actually, I think your example here of focusing on “what the client wants” is a good way to begin. You might find it easier to stand up for your clients than for yourself.

            I also find that practicing saying things (optionally in the mirror) really helps when you need them to actually come out. You can also practice with a friend. Just some basic phrases that will help you, like what Tara S. suggested. “Thanks, I’ll think about that!” (then move on and do it your way anyway) is also a good one. I don’t think you need to explain all your reasoning to folks every time, but it can be helpful to remind yourself that you do have reasons for doing the things you do, so mentally going over a decision process, what you want and why you chose your process, before you need to discuss the outcomes with other can also help you get in a good mindset.

            Outside of work situations it can also be good to practice assertiveness in low-stakes situations. Getting your correct order at the coffee shop, rather than just taking the wrong drink they made for you.

            Finally, it strikes me that “many” conversations about your style in just one month of working together is a lot! Maybe your colleagues have all forgotten what it’s like to be new somewhere.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Ask for examples of times you should have stood up for yourself. And examples of what you should do in those cases.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      There are classes in assertiveness training, conflict management, etc. These can help if you’re not skilled in this kind of communication. Practicing scenarios is the best training – even role playing with a trusted person outside work. This is a skill like any other – gotta practice, even in the mirror, if needed. Tone and respect are really important to maintain work relationships.
      You can do this!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I used my commute time to replay problem situations in my head. What did I like about how I handled it? What did I dislike? Did I get the results I wanted? Why or why not? The point here is to look at the ideas that ARE working as well as the ideas that are NOT working.

      So this requires looking at situations in the past. While it is true that we can’t unring a bell, we can, indeed allow it to teach us.

      With people who are aggressive about their opinions I like to make sure I know my rationale thoroughly before starting the conversation. Insist on yourself using logic through out the conversation. This helps to keep the conversation grounded and helps to prevent pie throwing displays. So if they say something illogical then you can say, “I am not sure how Dot A is connected to Dot G. Do you see something I am missing?” (It’s surprising how many times people will say “Oh never mind.” That means you made your point.)

  57. babblemouth*

    Can you recommend good places to post ads recruiting for an intern? I’ve send our ad to univeristies around our area, but are there job board that university students check that I should be aware of? This is for a position in media/marketing, in case that’s relevant.

    1. Anon just in case*

      I’ve had the most luck (and the best candidates) with university job boards, but I’ve successfully used Indeed and LinkedIn as well. From my anecdotal experience speaking with our interns, it seems that a lot of universities are recommending that students become active on LinkedIn early in their college careers, especially students majoring in business-related fields.

    2. CheeryO*

      The career services people at the universities should be able to help you out. If it’s a bigger school, they likely have their own website for job postings that the students would be aware of. You could also look into manning a table at a career fair to speak with students in person. I’ve done that at my alma mater several times and have been really impressed with a lot of the students.

    3. Meteor*

      You could also consider more widespread online job sites like LinkedIn and Glassdoor. When I was searching for intern positions, most were posted there, so it was helpful to be able to compare the job ads. Media/marketing (my area as well) students should be well-versed in online searching, and may not be connected to their university’s career office.

    4. Maggie May*

      My university had a specific job board. It is a state school, so maybe send them around to your big public schools? I actually landed my internship through a job fair, which I think is probably more likely to net you resumes.

  58. Anon just in case*

    What are the ethics of leaving a job during a coworker’s maternity leave? I work in a very small department (myself, one coworker with my same job, a junior employee, and our boss). The job is one that requires a long time to get up to speed, and both my coworker and I have been in our positions for over 5 years (though she’s been there longer than me). My coworker has recently confided in me that she and her husband have begun exploring IVF and intend to begin the process in the new year. She said that a big part about why she finally feels comfortable taking this step is that she knows that our work will be safe in my hands and that I’ll be able to hold down the fort while she’s out.

    Here’s the rub- I’m ready to move on from this job. I’ve already privately decided to ramp up my job search after the holidays and hopefully move on by spring.

    What is the ethical way to proceed? My friends think I either *must* leave before my coworker becomes pregnant, or *must* stay until she returns, and that there’s no possible way for me to leave respectfully in between. From a human perspective, I do agree that leaving while she is pregnant/out seems really crappy. But, from a practical perspective, that could potentially be a *long* time to put my plans on hold (maternity leaves of six months are not uncommon at my organization). Thoughts? This job and the connections I’ve made are very important to me, so I’d rather suck up the extra year than risk burning a bridge. Just wondering how to navigate this should it be an issue.

    1. Anon just in case*

      Oh and just to be clear, my personal anxieties about this have no bearing on my wishes for my coworker. I know that this is something she and her husband want dearly, and I wish them all the luck regardless of how it may affect me.

    2. babblemouth*

      You’re not required to put your life on hold because other people also have a life. Do what’s right for you, give appropriate notice, and you should be just fine.

    4. Trouble*

      What if she never returns? Some people have every intention and then decide to stay at home. You need to look after you. I would feel really bad too. I’m about to move on and the rest of the team will still be here. I still feel bad for the extra work load they’re going to have now. We’re not even that close as a team. That’s just human. I’m still also leaving as it’s right for me. If it’s right for you to leave now, leave now. If you coworker has maternity leave after you’ve gone the company will figure it out. That’s their job. Yours is to do what’s right for you. Don’t plan your life around what may or may not happen at work.

      1. Anon just in case*

        That’s a really good point, I hadn’t considered her not returning but it absolutely could happen. I really appreciate your perspective!

    5. Overeducated*

      I think this is a management problem, not your problem. You and your coworker should both pursue your lives and careers on your own timelines.

      1. mr. brightside*

        +1. Filling this position and arranging coverage is a management problem, it’s not on you to feel responsible.

        And frankly, IVF isn’t magic, and if you really want to stay until that person comes back from mat leave… you could be looking at years of staying somewhere you don’t want to, because you feel guilted into it.

        At the end of the day, you are the one who has to live your life.

        And if the department fails? Well, sometimes that happens. But it honestly also would not be your fault for leaving. You’re not the owner. You are the employee. You can get another job and leave.

        1. Anon just in case*

          This is a really helpful perspective, thank you. And you’re right, I had thought about how long it might take her to conceive which makes the whole consideration more daunting.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      My friends think I either *must* leave before my coworker becomes pregnant, or *must* stay until she returns, and that there’s no possible way for me to leave respectfully in between.

      Oh, lord, no. That’s ridiculous.

      1. Anon just in case*

        Thanks for the reality check. Yes my best friend thinks I would be better off leaving now with no job lined up rather than looking callous by leaving my pregnant coworker in the lurch. But these comments have helped me realize that, while the situation my leaving causes may be *a* problem, it is not *my* (or my coworker’s) problem.

    7. Could be Anyone*

      You have no way of knowing when you’ll find a new job and even less idea of when your co-worker’s IVF will be successful. You absolutely can’t put your career on hold because another person *might* become pregnant.
      If the stars align so that you end up leaving while she’s on leave – no, it’s not ideal. But that’s okay! As long as you give reasonable notice for your industry and do what you can during that time to help with the transition, this is not burning bridges. Good luck!

    8. Ranon*

      Oh my goodness, no, you are not under any obligation to plan your job hunting/ career/ life around your co-worker’s possible family planning. Absolutely not.

      Two of my co-workers left during my maternity leave (I took six months) – two out of 9. The company is fine, I am fine, former co-workers are at new jobs and presumably also fine.

      It was slightly surprising to come back and find out since no one mentioned it explicitly for a while after I returned and I only got a goodbye email from one of them so there was a period of “so…. Guess Fred doesn’t work here now…”, but seriously, it was all totally fine. Live your life.

    9. LilySparrow*

      1) How on earth would you be able to time your notice period to make sure you leave “before she becomes pregnant”? Nobody knows when that’s going to happen, including her. She could wind up surprise pregnant next week – it’s been known to happen, even if people think IVF is their only option. Or, as Could be Anyone points out, it could take a long time.

      2) When she does find out she’s pregnant, she’ll have 7-8 months before she goes on leave. Even if she waits 12 weeks or so before telling work she’s pregnant, that still leaves five months or so. If management can’t cover your position with that much lead time, they have serious problems with their business model. Problems that are none of your doing and not your responsibility.

      3) Either of you could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow. The business would not grind to a screeching halt. If it did, see above re: serious problems with business model.

      4) I am not a fan of your co-worker’s comment about deciding to go ahead with IVF based on your contributions at work. If she’s making decisions about having children based on you, personally, “holding down the fort,” she’s mixing up her work and her family life to an unhealthy degree and dragging you into it. Her decision to pursue IVF is between her and her husband. It’s none of your business as her co-worker. If she wants to share the information with you as a friend, that’s one thing. But you do not belong anywhere in that equation.

      I think both your co-worker and your bad-advice friend have some very odd ideas about work-life balance.

    10. valentine*

      She said that a big part about why she finally feels comfortable taking this step is that she knows that our work will be safe in my hands and that I’ll be able to hold down the fort while she’s out.
      I would’ve told her that’s inappropriate and you never know.

      Why does everyone, including you, hold you responsible for staffing and your coworker’s family life? You’re responsible only for doing your job as well as you can. Your coworker wouldn’t reduce her leave or return out of perceived obligation to you, yeah? Do what works for you and let everyone else sort themselves.

  59. Annoyed anon*

    There are two women who sit in the section across from me who make fun of me. Sometimes they talk in another language, but I don’t know what they’re saying, but it’s about me because they point at me. They do it to another girl, but it’s not as bad. They only do it when the boss isn’t around. Is there any way to stop this?

    1. JB*

      Maybe. It depends on the exact circumstances and the relationships involved.

      You can’t ask for a blanket policy that everyone has to speak English. That’s a “civil rights” violation. An English-Only Policy is only valid when the work requires it. You CAN ask that they desist the behavior if you suspect they are talking about you. If they are pointing at you, it is a reasonable assumption. You can walk over an ask them, “Is there a problem? Can I help you? I saw you pointing at me, so I’m guessing you must have something that needs my help. Oh? You don’t need my help? So then why were you pointing at me?” If they’re acting like children, speak to them like children, and explain in small words why pointing at someone is considered rude. Then NEVER, EVER let them get away with it again. EVERY SINGLE TIME, you need to repeat this process loudly and emphatically.

      If you do go to the boss, you are accepting some risk. Some bosses will shut down bullying and toxic behavior. Others will fire you. It depends very much on your workplace’s corporate culture. If it is a supportive workplace that wants to help people, the boss can intervene. If it is a place with apathetic bosses and high turnover, they might find it easier to fire the ‘whiner’ than deal with the discipline problem.

      Whatever you do, be very, very clear on this point: You are NOT complaining that they are speaking their native language. You ARE complaining about the specific behavior (eg. pointing at you while they are doing it) and the distrustful, hostile message it sends.

    2. theletter*

      You walk over to the other women that they are pointing at, and you whisper “Glance over at them and start giggling with me.” Then start laughing.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Honestly, unless you want this to take up even more of your brainspace than it already does, just ignore them. If you can’t actually ignore them, pretend like you do until it becomes a habit.

      If you try to snuff out office gossip, and police your co-workers’ conversations to see if they are talking about you or what they are saying, you will be taking on a whole other full-time job. You’ll also be giving them even more fodder to talk about. If it doesn’t appear to bother you, they are more likely to get bored and stop.

      If their conversations interfere with your work (by being loud or distracting, for example) or if they start interacting with you in ways that make it harder to do your job or are insulting or verbally abusive, then take it up with your manager.

      They are acting like middle-schoolers. When’s the last time you saw a grownup who broke a sweat over what middle-schoolers said about them? You get to be the grownup.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am kind of leaning towards the solution of you being seen (by them) googling a translator for their language. I am not sure how I feel about that idea, I am just sort of kicking it around in my head.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You do not actually know what they’re saying, so just address the pointing.
      (Seriously. For all you know, you & your co-worker might be getting pointed to because they like your clothes, you answer questions well, or you easily handled a problem customer and they’re trying to figure out how.)

      Let themknow –or if theres a language barrier, let your common manager know–that it makes you uncomfortable, because it gives the appearance of unpleasant gossip.

      You can soften it by asking if there’s something you need to know *in the moment* when they’re pointing. Be polite & cheerful & friendly, “so ok you’re pointing at me. Did I just spill something? I can’t find it if I did.”

    7. Jasnah*

      What is your relationship with them? Do you know they’re making fun of you, as opposed to talking about you in another way (“You have to ask Annoyed *points* about these reports”) or something near you (“No, it was on the street side of the building *points*” or “Then my sister moved back across town *gestures*”)?

      Personally I would chime in and say, “Oh, were you talking about me? Did you need something?” and then if they said no, say, “Oh, sorry, I thought you were pointing at me. My mistake!” And if it keeps happening, say, “I keep thinking you’re pointing at me! Haha! So weird!” to kind of highlight the awkward. But honestly your choices are either to get to know them well enough to know if they have a problem with you, or to put it out of your mind and assume they don’t. As someone who speaks multiple languages I hate it when people think I’m talking about them or excluding them just because I’m speaking in another language–sometimes it’s not about you!

    1. irene adler*

      Why not? Just make sure you have his current contact info. And that he’s willing to be a reference.

    2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      Yes. Just be sure to ask him if its okay to use him as a reference first.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Absolutely.

      My boss sold the business. They don’t know me. My boss knows everything about me and is happy to give references.

      But ask!

    4. Earthwalker*

      I’m getting reference requests two years after retirement. It’s usually about someone who was good and I’m delighted to reply.

  61. The Lady Amalthea*

    I’m about to start a job working as a researcher at a university. My supervisor will be my old advisor, who pushed the position through for me, but all salary and benefits will be communicated through HR. The salary range for the position is pretty wide–a swing of about $35,000. I was making slightly above the low number at my last position, but ideally would like to make more with this new one. I won’t be using insurance, either. My question is whether anyone knows the protocol for negotiating salary in a university setting. When HR gives me the number do I come back with something else if I want more, or do I go to my future supervisor? Thanks in advance!

    1. Lily Rowan*

      If HR gives you the number, you should go back to them to negotiate. They may go to your supervisor or they may not, depending.

    2. Tara S.*

      Good job not making the mistake I initially made thinking university salaries couldn’t be negotiated! If HR is the one who communicates the number, you can conduct your negotiation with them. They may loop your future supervisor in and have them talk directly to you, but you can also conduct it exclusively through HR. Otherwise follow Alison’s general negotiation advice about asking for more money. Best of luck!

    3. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I doubt a university (or any large employer) is going to care that you’re not using the insurance, but you should negotiate with whoever gives you the offer information. You aren’t going to sign your right to elect that insurance at some point away, so they won’t and can’t count on you not needing it.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I thought that comment meant she’d be declining the insurance? Some employers (including a couple of universities I know of) give you that option, and they deposit some money into a FSA account for you in lieu of insurance.

        1. Elizabeth Proctor*

          I took it to mean that OP thought they could get a higher salary because they wouldn’t cost the employer their insurance.

  62. ditzy in denver*

    I’ve never really posted here but hoping some internet strangers could help me!

    I’m job hunting currently, with hopes to move from my hometown to city A. I have an interview today for a job in city A (yay!) but there are some complicating factors I don’t know how to navigate:

    1. The reason I want to move to city A is because my boyfriend lives there. I mentioned this during my phone screen (along with some other, better sounding things) when they asked why I was looking to move. Was that a mistake? Should I refrain from mentioning it during the real interview today, or say “partner” or something?

    2. A close family member is currently going through cancer treatment. I realistically can’t move until they are at least through the treatment (which should be by the new year). And obviously, I might not be able to move at all depending on their health. How do I walk this line with this potential employer? I’m in an industry that expects people to start soon after they are hired. I want them to know that I’m willing to move, but need at least a month before I can do it, without making them aware that I may have to reject the offer if family member gets worse. I also don’t want to get too personal in an interview. Do I describe the situation, and if so, any scripts would be super helpful.

    thank you all in advance, I’m still pretty new to the working world and I really don’t want to misstep.

    1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      “Partner” makes it sound more serious than boyfriend (a boyfriend could be someone you’ve been seeing for 4 weeks or 4 years), so it’s probably to use that word instead.

      No advice for the second question – it’s a tough situation! For my inexperienced point of view, I wouldn’t mention that you might have to reject an offer – you’re allowed to reject any offer, even without an ‘excuse’.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Agree about the use of the word partner. Though, honestly, any reasonable employer should (even though some don’t) recognize that people move for their boyfriends or girlfriends all the time, and it’s a legitimate reason to move.

      I wouldn’t mention anything about it. You’re saying you mignt not be able to moving depending… well, as far as you know right now, you can move. So you’re operating in good faith. If an offer comes when you can’t move, then part of your negotiation can be “I didn’t know that the health situation would change for Close Family Member, so can I push the start date back by X weeks.” And maybe that will make the job offer fall through, and maybe it won’t.

      1. ditzy in denver*

        Thank you for the advice!! I’m concerned they will ask “when can you move” like they did in the phone screen. Then, I said “about a month” and kept it vague which I can do again. Realistically, I’ll need more than a month, but hopefully you’re right–if I get an offer, I can negotiate start date then.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          My point was that you don’t know, so you aren’t lying if you say in good faith what you do know.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      For the boyfriend question, I’d say: “I’m planning to move to City A to be closer to family” (assuming that your boyfriend is akin to a long-term partner/family member).

      There’s nothing you need to say about your family member with cancer. Once you get an offer you can negotiate a start date. Asking to start after January 1 will be a non-issue in nearly every case; that’s only three weeks away, and over a holiday time period when many folks don’t work or have travel plans. (They also know that you’ll be moving if you accept the job, so if they’re on top of things they’ll also be factoring that in when they think about a start date).

      If, because of your family member’s health, you end up having to turn down an offer after having accepted it, you can say that directly. “I am so sorry to have to do this, but my father’s health has taken a serious turn for the worse and I need to stay in City X for the time being. I know this puts you in a tight spot, and I really appreciate the opportunity to come join your team, but given this news I’m just not able to leave City X right now.”

      1. LJay*

        Seconding this.

        I’ve never had anyone ask “what family?” in response, but if they did I would say something like, “my longterm partner”.

        And yeah, I can’t imagine anywhere actually expecting you to begin before January at this point. 2 weeks from today is the 21st which is a Friday, then you get directly into Christmas and New Years where they will understand that most people don’t want to start during that time frame (and even if they do, the people to onboard and train them may be out of the office for the holidays).

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Regarding 2, interview like you can take the job especially since your family member will be done with the treatment by January. Once you get an offer (which will probably be well into January because hiring slows during the holidays), tell them you can start on X date a month out or however long it will take you to move to city A.

      I hope you can take the job, but if you end up having to decline tell them when you know you can’t and state that you had to put your move on hold because of a sick family member. They don’t have to know that you knew that this might happen while you’re interviewing.

      If at any time you realize that you don’t want the job or can’t take the job, let them know immediately. An interview is supposed to be something of a two way street; you’re not required to take any job you interview for.

      It’s a little dicer once you accept the job offer, but you are in good faith hoping to move and not deceiving them very much.

  63. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

    My supervisor and I were chatting and she told me that she considers a thank-you note a requirement after interviewing a candidate. She said that if someone doesn’t send a thank-you note, she assumes they’re not interested enough and rejects them. I’m wondering how common this is, as it seems a tad silly!

    1. Asenath*

      Not common. We deal with scores of interviews a year – a tiny, tiny minority sends an email or card thanking us for interviewing them, and that has no effect whatsoever on the final decision. In fact, most of them don’t come in before the final decision is made.

        1. Not Today*

          Not really. My millennial child always sends thank you notes and has had them specifically mentioned as something that made an impression on an interviewer, that and her stellar cover letters. A thank you note will not make you qualified if you are not, but it only takes a moment (email is fine) and sure doesn’t hurt. There is no universal pronouncement on this.

          1. Trouble*

            I send thank you emails because I’ve read that a nice thank you note will not make the hiring manager chose you if you’re not the best candidate, but if you’re tied with someone and you’re the one who sends the note when the other guy doesn’t bother, it might leave you making the best impression and getting the job. I figure it can’t hurt me but it might give me the tiny edge I need! I sent thank you emails to all three of my interviewers and I got the job. My new line manager emailed me back saying that I was the only one to say thanks for their time and he thought it was nice to know I was just as interested as they were :)

    2. anon today and tomorrow*

      I didn’t send a thank you note for the last two positions I was hired for. I understand the point of them in theory, but no one I’ve known at both of those companies every read the ones they were sent.

      I have known people who will rule out a candidate who doesn’t send a thank you note, which I think is extreme, especially if the candidate is otherwise strong and someone you’d hire.

    3. DAMitsDevon*

      I’ve had the habit of writing thank you notes pretty much drilled into me, so from the interviewee side of things, I can’t imagine not sending an email after doing an interview. However, I do feel like it would be silly to eliminate an otherwise strong candidate from the pool just because they didn’t send a thank you note.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I hope it’s not common. TY notes are good to do, and a well-written note should totally count toward an applicant’s consideration, but should be considered optional. I also wonder what other arbitrary rules she follows about what is “right” and “wrong” business behavior.

    5. CatCat*

      It’s really silly. If a thank you note is part of the required materials for a job, that should be clear in the advertisement. Your supervisor should quit wasting candidates time by rejecting them based on her secret requirement.

    6. Anna Held*

      See, questions like this is why Christmas Card Guy from the post above makes sense. Lots of people would be impressed to receive a card every year.

    7. Friday afternoon fever*

      It’s sooooo dependent on the hiring manager — like I’ve heard people say precisely the same as your supervisor, despite all comments below saying it’s out of touch — that even if I hadn’t had thank you emails drilled into me as best practice, I would send one anyway to be safe.

      I always send one. It never hurts. It’s a great chance to restate why you think you’d be a good hire after you have some more info. It’s a good chance to show them you can actively listen and reflect information. It just …. never hurts.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Email. Within 48 hours of the interview. A few short paragraphs max: thank you for your consideration, it was great to learn more, hearing about x and y ….., I can bring z and q …., etc.

  64. lazuli*

    I just got a promotion! And it’s a government job, so the amount of work required to apply was equal for internal and external candidates, so it was a nerve-wracking process. I wanted to thank Alison for her “Questions To Ask in an Interview,” because I used two of them and it both made me feel better to have smart questions prepared and it gave me a better sense of the job and the likely obstacles. (It’s a newly created job in an organization where I already work, so a lot of the other questions weren’t super-relevant.) The title and salary change start on January 2, and I’ll be working both jobs for a while, which is annoying but expected, and I’m really excited!

    4. lazuli*

      Thank you! I’ve been in a supervisor role for a few years but this will be my first official “manager” role (though I have fewer reports than I did as a supervisor). Onward and upward!

  65. Ops manager*

    Can someone give me some insight into the mind of people who love to follow rules?

    My coworkers like to enforce mundane rules no one follows on the rest of us/and then they brag about what great rule followers they are. Think outdated dress code stuff 60% of the company isn’t following. I’ve told them not to monitor me and I will deal with consequences if I am talked to by management. But I just don’t get the mentality – if it isn’t followed why do you care?

    1. Never*

      How about you first give me some insight into the mind of people who think they are above following rules?

        1. Ops manager*

          I don’t think I phrased things in the best manner. These are old school dress code stuff that is outdated (closed toed shoes, stockings). Even my boss doesn’t follow it. I figure formally changing the policy isn’t a high priority. These coworkers like being the police of it when they have no real authority.

          I don’t really understand wanting do to this when your own boss doesn’t follow the rules. They irritate me, and I wanted to learn where they come from to develop some empathy. I guess my thoughts are if there are no consequences for breaking a rule that everyone breaks that is tbh stupid and outdated, then why not? I’m not intending to be above anything.

          1. LCL*

            Why are they trying to hold you to old outdated rules? Because when they started the rules were new, and enforced. They either complied or suffered the professional consequences. Now along comes new person, who believes the old rules to be outdated, irrelevant and unnecessary. You are probably right in your interpretation of the rules, but you negate all of the crap they had to put up with when you say all of these rules are unimportant. Times change, the rules are unimportant NOW.

            If you want to get them on your side, talk to them. Ask them what the dress code expectations were when they started, what happened if they went outside them, why do they still think them necessary. Then ask for their support in getting management to change the policy. Policies that are on paper one way and enforced another should be brought up to date, otherwise it causes friction between the employees. As it is now.

            1. Jasnah*

              This is the answer. “I had to follow the rules and suffered through it, and now everyone is getting ahead by circumventing the rules. That’s not fair. Why do they get a pass now when I didn’t then? Why are they allowed to break the rules to get ahead, but I wasn’t?”

          2. Well Red*

            If the rules exist, they should be enforced. If they don’t matter, the policies should be updated to reflect the actual rules. Having rules that aren’t enforced makes the status of all rules uncertain, leaving me unsure of what the actual expectations are, of what will happen if we don’t follow other rules, and leads to anxiety and stress about the apparently unwritten actual rules that I don’t know about.

            1. Ann Perkins*

              I work in compliance and +1 to all this. The behavior of the coworkers sounds obnoxious but the policies should be updated instead of just no longer being enforced.

            2. Trout 'Waver*

              Yeah, but who wants to be the person who used their political capital on changing the dress code rules? Doubly so if doing so would result in no change to the status quo.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        Rules are means to an end and not ends themselves. If the desired end result is achieved but the rules weren’t strictly followed, isn’t that a better outcome than if the rules are strictly followed but the desired end result isn’t achieved? If not following a rule still results in the desired outcome and doesn’t hurt anyone, why follow the rule?

        Also, rules are often overly strict and inflexible. Coming in 15 minutes late to a job that doesn’t have a business need for strict punctuality isn’t a big deal if you do it once in awhile. But it is a big deal if you do it every single day. But if you try to codify into rules, you lose the flexibility. If you try to make it a rule that you can be late X times per month, then some people will be late exactly X times a month on purpose.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, is the issue that they follow rules, or that the rules they follow are silly? Maybe work to change the rules?

    4. fposte*

      I wouldn’t be all “neener, neener, I see your toes, you’re in trouble,” but my mind really does alert on rule breaches as disturbances in the force. With them, there may be some of that and, since it sounds like there’s more than one, it’s getting perceived as blatant disregard for The Way We Do Things Around Here (and obviously it’s the way we do things around here, because it’s in the rulebook–never mind what actual humans do). So I think they should knock it off, but I suspect I understand how their minds work.

      1. Ops manager*

        That’s fascinating to me. My brain doesn’t work like that- I just wouldn’t notice. Thanks!

        1. fposte*

          It’s a hugely work-helpful brain for me to have as an editor, but it took me a long time not to be personally affronted by people who cut across the grass, wore their own shoes instead of bowling shoes, and touched the art.

          1. Anna Held*

            Touching the art damages the art! Please continue to be personally affronted. I’d freak out. Is it their art? No? Then keep your damn hands to yourself!

            1. fposte*

              Wearing their own shoes damages the alleys, and cutting across the lawn damages the grass. None of it’s impact-free. But it’s also not the end of the world if they get policed by somebody other than me.

    5. Could be Anyone*

      In what way are they enforcing these rules? It sounds like they have no authority to do so. If they are just saying to you “tsk tsk you’re wearing open toed shoes” and you know this to be acceptable, then just shrug and move on.

    6. Someone Else*

      So, I don’t know that I couldanswer your specific question without more context, but my opinion is the rule is there for a reason, and lays a groundwork so people know where they stand. I loathe working places that have a bunch of rules that no one follows. That’s chaos. Now you don’t know which rules matter or which don’t. If a rule is outdated or pointless and no one actually cares if it’s followed, take it off the books. If it’s a bad rule that creates inefficiency or inequality or is otherwise bad, change it to something that isn’t bad. If it’s arbitrary, get rid of it. But to me, if the rule is worth having, it’s worth following. Are the people who aren’t following trying to do some sort of civil disobedience? Why don’t they present a logical argument for changing or removing the rule? Just not following it in work situations, in my experience, doesn’t help anything. It just creates confusion. If I really object to a rule strongly enough that I’d be inclined to not follow it, I’d tell someone who is in a position to change it. Depending on the severity, after voicing my concerns I might stop doing it (and would have said so) but in most cases, unless it’s a safety/ethics thing, I’d probably continue doing the rule until it got changed.

      One reason it bugs me when others blatantly ignore a rule is that sometimes new staff, rather than checking what the rules are, will just mimic whoever they work with most. So that person ignores the rules, now we’ve got new staff also ignoring the rules, not consciously, but in more of a “so and so does it!” way, and that’s usually tends to create a bigger mess or more work for those of us who do follow protocol. That’s my general thought on rule following.

    7. Anon with too much anxiety*

      Well … for me rules provide structure and people disregarding the rules means they could do anything and if the rules aren’t enforced then it means they could get away with anything. I know for the most part there are some overly strict rules and sometimes getting hung up on every infraction doesn’t make sense but at the same time it does cause anxiety about what people are capable of and what they could get away with.

    8. valentine*

      Maybe they had jerkfaced parents who punished them for not making their younger siblings toe the line, have found that abuse replicated at work, and they’d rather get in trouble for scolding you than for “letting” you break the rule when they know better.

  66. The Ginger Ginger*

    Any other folks have stories about first impulses/responses to work issues or situations that are TOTALLY WRONG, that they either learned from or conquered in the moment? I had one happen this week….

    And boy has this has been a WEEK at work. A truly, TRULY catastrophic error slipped into a live environment and lingered undetected over a weekend. We caught it internally instead of the client seeing it, but…woof. And when I found out, and my team told me they’d already fixed it, my first, knee-jerk instinct was to just……not…….tell anyone. WHICH IS ABSURD WHY WOULD I THINK THAT EVEN???? Especially since, this wasn’t directly my fault, but a whole combination of issues coalescing around a couple of teams I’m attached to. But I guess it goes to show how instinctive avoidance of the negative is ingrained in us. I, thankfully, thought of AAM, put on my grown up pants, and immediately escalated to my manager – while launching a root cause and scope investigation. And now it’s all out of my hands and run up the chain as it should be. But holy cow, it kind of feels like I came upon a sudden steep drop into a ravine while walking in the dark and barely managed to save myself from falling down into it and being dashed on the rocks. I feel like I learned something bad about myself and my first impulses, but also something okay about my follow through.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Good for you! I can totally understand the impulse of “well, no one needs to know” but you demonstrated real integrity by doing the right thing.

    2. bdg*

      I think hiding it would be anyone’s first instinct. That’s a pretty common response to a mistake, really. I wouldn’t read too much into that first response.

      What matters is that you identified it as a good catch, worked to prevent it from happening again, and have learned from the experience. That’s really the best outcome possible. Concentrate on what worked about your process in order to catch the mistake, consider how you can change the process to prevent it from happening again, and record it in case it’s a trend.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Yea,h I think that knee jerk “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” wail into the void is part of all of us.

  67. Snoozing Loser*

    I’m returning to work on Monday, after serving a suspension for all of this week (unpaid). My offense was falling asleep at work – which I know can often be a fireable offense, so I on the one hand I am lucky I was just suspended. However, there were mitigating circumstances – I had been pulled into a nearly-around-the-clock crunch-time project without prior notice, and found myself working 18+ hour days for a week (including one all-nighter). By the end of the week…my body just noped. I did not fall asleep in a meeting or around clients, I was in my office with the door shut (the bulk of the crunch-time work had been finished at that time, and I had a free couple hours to catch up on other stuff while waiting for some comments from other team members on the report I was putting together). I ended up dozing off, someone heard me snoring and…that was that. My question is – how should I act when I go back to work? I have always been a top performer and nothing like this has ever happened before. For the record, my boss and grandboss did not want me suspended or disciplined at all, but HR took a hard line and boss/grandboss were too frazzled with the crunch-time requirements to take the time to escalate to a higher management level.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      The first thing I’d do when I got back would be to talk to my boss about how this was going to be reflected on my employment file and impact my annual performance review. Because it is BONKERS that you had to take a week unpaid for this. Especially if you’re not eligible for overtime on all the extra hours you’d been working earlier in the week. I’d also see if now that the chaos of the time crunch is over, if there’s anything your boss/grandboss can do for you with HR. Because if this impacts your raises or reviews or file or anything else in any way? That is a hill I, at least, would be willing to die on. And perfect world, you’d be able to get some pay back for the week they suspended you.

      Because just to reiterate, it is BONKERS that you got suspended without pay for this. And that during a time crunch situation, HR bypassed the desires of your boss AND grandboss and SUSPENDED A HIGH PERFORMER FOR A WEEK. They’re punishing you for working hard and potentially causing more issues by making an already crunched team perform man down. They’re drunk on power or something. Bonkers.

      And do NOT beat yourself up over this. You are not a robot! HR being bonkers will not turn you into a robot! You have to sleep and eat and do things for your body or your body will NOPE out. This is in no way, something you should be ashamed of. My hope for you as you go back is to find your anger (in a helpful way) over this. No shame, just pure indignation.

      1. Bees in my Socks*

        This would be my hill to die on (or leave over). If HR doesn’t have the sense of mind to think about circumstances and instead is just “RULES RULES RULES” (outside of federal/state requirements of course) then that is a big bad NOPE to me.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Wow. I think you were treated unfairly. (Starting with the idea of a suspension at all… like a time out for adults? Just, like, as a punishment?? I’m genuinely shocked.)

      I think you can act totally normally.

      Without knowing your workplace or managers (although it sounds like they have your back, in principle if not in practice), it’s hard to advise you on what else you can do.

      I’m lucky to have a supportive team and very strong relationships with my manager (and her manager) and my colleagues. Given that, I would have a very firm and direct conversation with my boss and grandboss to express my disappointment and frustration and ask them if they can rectify the situation now that the heat of the moment has passed. (Rectification in this case would mean back pay for my unpaid week, and a removal of any “black marks” in my personnel file.)

      I may even acknowledge out loud that this incident has affected my commitment to/relationship with/feelings for my employer in general. (I did this a couple of years ago after a serious betrayal of trust by my employer; I said something like “To be honest, Boss, this has really affected how I feel about Employer. I’m not looking to leave, but I’m a lot closer to that point than I was a year ago. I hope that Employer can earn my trust and commitment back. We’ll see what happens.”)

      I’d also be open with my colleagues both about what caused the suspension and my disappointment in how I was treated.

    3. OlympiasEpiriot*

      No advice, just sympathy and Good Grief! how can anyone expect you to be functioning after a week when you only got a maximum of 24 hours of sleep in 5 workdays? (Or is it 36 hours in 7 days?)

    4. Anon de plume*

      Act like nothing happened. also, I hope you used your suspension to update your resume. Unreasonable hours plus an unreasonable HR plus bosses who didn’t tell HR to eff off plus the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

    5. Rebecca*

      Return to work, and start looking for another job. That is really crappy, expecting someone to work long hours like that, I mean, seriously, 18 hour days?? And an all nighter with no sleep? I apologize if I seem harsh, but that’s ridiculous. And even more ridiculous is that when your human body finally said “I gotta sleep”, you were reprimanded. The only good thing is that you got a week off, albeit unpaid, because I suspect in this culture they’re not great with paid time off either.

      Go back to work, do your thing, and go home. I’d find other things to do in the evenings and weekends, like caring for a dying relative, volunteer work, a second job, anything. Man, this makes me want to grind my teeth.

    6. StarHunter*

      Now that crunch time is over I would still consider having the higher-ups escalate. It seems like pretty extenuating circumstances and I would push for having the disciplinary action expunged from your record (and perhaps even push for back pay).

    7. Snoozing Loser*

      Thanks, AAM community! So glad to hear I am not out of line in thinking the suspension was unfair under the circumstances. Here are a few more details: I am exempt, so (a) I did not get any overtime pay for the highly extended hours; and (b) I was not costing the company anything by dozing off for a few minutes (I know this would be a bit murkier for a non-exempt employee who is paid for every hour worked, although I would still hope that under an extreme hours situation a nap would just result in the employee being clocked out for a bit). My hours are usually much, more more reasonable and workdays tend to wrap up by 6-7 pm at the latest, so my life and body are not set up/conditioned to jumping in to such an extreme situation. The company’s policy (as enforced by HR) is that falling asleep at work (for any reason, other than a documented medical issue) results in an automatic unpaid one-week suspension. This can only be overridden by someone at the VP level or above (level above grandboss), but the appropriate VP was out on bereavement leave last week. The funny thing is that I was told to stay through the end of the day to finish the project (after I was awakened and disciplined by HR) and then my suspension started on Monday (spanning a week that would have been much lighter), so I guess the company got to have it both ways. I do think I need to escalate this upon my return – in addition to the fact that losing a week of pay around the holidays is horrible, employees who have been suspended are not eligible for raises/bonuses that year. Really appreciate the advice, and will definitely be looking at organizing my next move if they can’t rectify this quickly.

      1. mr. brightside*

        The funny thing is that I was told to stay through the end of the day to finish the project (after I was awakened and disciplined by HR) and then my suspension started on Monday (spanning a week that would have been much lighter), so I guess the company got to have it both ways. I do think I need to escalate this upon my return – in addition to the fact that losing a week of pay around the holidays is horrible, employees who have been suspended are not eligible for raises/bonuses that year.

        Absolutely escalate this. Yeah, okay, the VP was out… are there no other VPs in your organization? Someone should have been covering for them?

        But that’s in the past. For now, bring this up. They kept you there that day instead of sending you home, so they got more work out of you, the work THEY needed. Then they suspended you at a time that was good for them. After working you to the bone with NO OVERTIME.

        This ain’t okay. Escalate it. And start a job search, because it sounds like your boss and grandboss have your back, but not enough to stop things like this from happening.

        1. valentine*

          This & The Ginger Ginger’s all-caps post above. It’s almost like they wrote the rule to catch you in their 18-hour trap. It’s weird as well as wrong. Also, exhaustion is a medical condition. I don’t know if your doctor can back that up now, but reasonable people shouldn’t need that. I hope you find a softer place to land or this causes a power reconstruction.

      2. SB*

        Given you’ve said you’re a high performer, your boss and grandboss should be shaking in their boots right now worrying about losing you over this. If they seem unfazed when you get back, you would definitely be within your rights to make sure they grasp just how now okay this was, at all. Oof.

      3. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Agreed, definitely escalate this. I would start by sitting down with your boss and grandboss and asking them to help you work through it, now that they have time to do it. Present it, calmly but firmly, as a problem that you have and would like their help solving. They seem to be inclined to support you, and if the VP is a sane and reasonable person, s/he should agree.

        It sounds as if HR is totally out of control. Any boss I have had would be spitting nails at the idea that HR could just barge in to their team and send a high-performing employee home for a week, over an issue that does not expose other employees to harassment/harm or the company to legal or financial liability.

        And definitely come back and let us know what happens. :)

      4. The Ginger Ginger*

        Oh yeah, ask your boss to see if the absent VP can retro-actively waive this, for sure!

        Also – what the heck is up with your work place that there is an active and specific policy on what happens when people fall asleep at work? Did they just go overboard and implement a global policy instead of correctly managing one bad employee, or is the work/life balance so crazy skewed that it’s a regular thing for people to be too exhausted to stay awake? Because depending on what time you get in…..6-7 pm (7pm especially) is still kind of long hours to be working on the regular.

        Also #2 – you mentioned firing in your original post, but unless you work in a position where the safety of others is dependent on you being alert, a single instance of you falling asleep at your desk should not be a firing offense. Even a week suspension is super harsh for a one off event that should just be a matter best handled by a competent manager.

        1. Bostonian*

          Yeah, when I read the part about falling asleep being a firing offense, I thought OP was a security guard or something. But… an office job that has required crazy hours and an all-nighter? What the hell?!

      5. LCL*

        Wow, was what happened to you some bullshit! I work with shift workers, not exempt personnel. The effects of lack of sleep combined with frantic long days are well known to anyone who cares to learn. Your company’s policy of one week unpaid for nodding off is excessive. It smells like a rule written for a specific person that management wanted to fire but didn’t want to do the work.

        This is definitely worth fighting. Asking someone who doesn’t normally work that kind of schedule to suddenly start working it guarantees there will be some negative effects on their performance. The professional employee (you) tries to minimize those effects, but they will happen. Google microsleep, and visit the website of circadian.com. The effects of harsh schedules on the body have been well studies and well known, but don’t receive a lot of attention in offices that don’t usually run a 24/7 schedule. I myself have nodded off in a car parked at a remote site and I didn’t want to, I had a ton of work waiting. And at a desk, head down on an open technical manual I had been trying to read.

        And the person that felt it necessary to inform HR? They are not your friend. They could have called your office, or knocked on the office door, or had a loud phone conversation in your vicinity to wake you up. Or anything other than what they did.

      6. ThursdaysGeek*

        Please come back and give us an update. I hope the VP clears it all up after your return – that’s the right thing to do. Realistically, extreme lack of sleep IS a medical condition, although I know that’s not what they were thinking.

        1. mr. brightside*

          “We worked you to the bone and gave you extreme sleep deprivation. Oh, you fell asleep? SUSPENDED.”

      7. msroboto*

        Your documented medical issue IS exhaustion caused by a tremendous amount of time put in over a short period of time aka lack of sleep. The cure is sleep. I have personally been known to send the exhausted people home with pay after putting in yeo(wo)man hours like that. I have removed them from the computer because at this point they are unable to function due to the effort they already put in. Also, back in the day a dinner gift card for someplace they and their partner enjoy is not out of line because the partner has been through something here too and deserve a reward.

    8. CatCat*

      There’s already been great responses. I just wanted to say that I’m so sorry this happened to you! This is in no way a normal way for an employer to treat a high performing employee working hours like that. It’s inhumane and absurd. UGH!

      1. Anna Held*

        If I fell asleep at work my team would be concerned about my health. Yes, obviously if it’s a pattern or I had been bragging about being out drinking the night before that would be different — but if a good employee nodded off the first impulse of our shop, including HR, would be concern.

    9. Binky*

      I think you should go back to your boss and grandboss and have them hash this all out with HR now that things have calmed down. It is absolutely unreasonable that you were suspended for a week without pay for falling asleep after pulling a week’s worth of 18 hour days (including an all nighter!). When pulling those sorts of hours I have deliberately tried to go to sleep under my desk, and I know I’m not the only one.
      You should receive your full week’s pay, and have your “suspension” reclassified as a comped vacation. I don’t think you should be the least bit cowed or apologetic, I think you should be pissed, and I think your boss and grandboss need to step in and make things right.

      Why on earth does HR have that sort of power anyway? That is messed up.

    10. emmelemm*

      This seems crazy to me. Unless you are in a public-facing job or a security guard, falling asleep in your own office in a super-crunch week is like… who cares????!

    11. Could be Anyone*

      They had you working 18+ hour days AND an all nighter and then disciplined you for falling asleep?!?!?! It took all of my self control to not type this in all caps. I really, really hope your bosses take the initiative to make this right.

    12. Owler*

      Also, even though you are exempt, I hope you keep a timesheet of the hours you work. If you don’t, start doing this, and retroactively make one to track the hours you’ve done (I like to check my email timestamps for this).

      There’s no reason to be punished about 18hour days. Please report back on what your higher-ups say. (And polish your resume in case you choose to find a less punitive employer.)

  68. Mimmy*

    Well, I’m taking another big leap of faith and going to a conference in Orlando at the end of January so that I can complete credits towards a certification in the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Hoping to take the exam (online) in February or March.

    What the effffff am I doing?? LOL. I am going to have some serious imposter syndrome with this! I have a background in social work but have somehow developed an interest in accessibility. I don’t see myself getting into the architectural aspects (accessible entrances, ramps, restrooms, etc), but I have to know it for the certification. I’m more interested in communication elements (making sure people can access information, either verbally or written and online) and policies (program requirements, service animals, etc). Universal Design is something I’m also intrigued by.

    What scares me is that jobs in accessibility are not easy to come by and probably VERY competitive. I’ll have to think outside the box and cast my net wider than I’m used to. I think I’ve mentioned before that I’m particularly interested in working in a postsecondary setting but I need some help figuring out if that really is the right path for me.

    1. Bees in my Socks*

      I can see familiarity and/or cert in that being useful for HR or Facilities/Building/Property Management.

      HR would be more on the lines of communication, policies, etc. The ‘architectural’ aspects are more on the Facilities end of things, but mostly in older buildings since nowadays most new buildings are built with universal design in mind and don’t need to be concerned with that sort of thing because ADA compliance is built into the framework already.

      It may also be useful in some form of career in inspection/auditing of companies, buildings, policies, etc.

      1. Mimmy*

        I’ve thought about doing something like that, perhaps evaluating ADA / accessibility plans. My volunteer work over the last several years has involved evaluating grant proposals from nonprofits. It’s a totally different realm, but I really enjoyed it and would think those skills would be transferable.

        1. Maggie May*

          pleeaaaassseeee start doing this – no one knows asthma is protected under the ADA since they think it’s all physical disabilities. I had to email a recruiter back and let them know a job posting violated the ADA! It’s crazy what people don’t really think about in day to day life.

  69. Amber Rose*

    I just got an email from a customer requesting that we donate to their Christmas party. Not like a charity or anything, just to make the party for their employees better. I have weird feelings about this. Like, that’s kind of on them, right? Nobody is entitled to a work party, if the workplace can’t afford it that’s their problem.

    Over on our end, it has just vomited Christmas. The 15 foot tree is in the boardroom, the 7 foot one is in the sales office, streamers and beads coat all the walls and ornaments hang from every inch of the ceiling. There’s a 6 foot stack of presents right beside my desk. As my supervisor put it, the company has spent a LOT of money this year paying us to not work and just decorate.

    1. babblemouth*

      1) That is weird. you’re in charge of the christmas party at your office (and even then, that should only be if you and your colleagues feel like having one) , not anyone else’s!
      2) As a lover of Christmas decorations (the tackier, the better) this sounds like heaven. Hopefully the rest of your colleagues feel the same!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I love glitter. Just, anything shiny. So I’m pretty happy, and I’ve had some fun with the decorating and stuff. I even brought in my mini-lights and some battery powered fake candles to light up my desk.

    2. So glad I'm out of there*

      My old, extremely toxic job used to do this – request gift cards from our vendors to use as door prizes at our Christmas party. I think one vendor did this as a gift one year and then the CEO thought it was genius and started pressuring our other vendors after that. I found it mortifying.

    3. Someone Else*

      It’s not completely unheard of for, say, nonprofits to ask around from local businesses if they might want to donate something (as door prizes) for the end of year party for staff. Was the customer in question a non-profit? If you don’t want to give them anything, it’s totally fine to just nope out of it. They wouldn’t be surprised, but they also probably do have plenty of places that gladly give them something for this purpose (and may even treat it as sort of marketing). I don’t think it’s necessarily super weird that you got asked.

      1. Amber Rose*

        They are definitely not a non-profit. They’re an oil company. We don’t do anything involving non-profits.

  70. Anon Admin Assistant*

    I need to vent a little: It’s been a rough week at work and I just want to scream, thrash around on the floor and throw #2 pencils at everyone. It’s always a little stressful around this time of the year, but the newest nepotism hires are huge drama-mongers. Yeah, I know who hired you and why, but you still gotta submit receipts with your credit card statement! If you submit a mileage report, it’s got to have how many miles you are claiming so we know how much to make the check for! Yes, I know you don’t like so-and-so in another department but I can’t do anything about it. Focus on work and don’t worry what so-and-so is doing because it doesn’t affect you! For the love of all the holy, please quit stirring the pot so I don’t get jail time.
    ~thanks~

  71. Never*

    Sigh. Company laid off 10% of employees on Tuesday (not me). Management insisted they told us this might be coming. They didn’t.

    Obviously there is no “good” way to do a layoff, but do you have experience which some processes that worked better than others?

    1. Lora*

      I have seen good arguments for a couple of ways:

      1) Give people several weeks if not months of notice, with lots of severance, and let them use the time to get their references in order, offer courses on how to write a resume and set up a LinkedIn profile, let them go on interviews and whatnot while they’re there so they can say they still have a job and aren’t unemployed, and therefore stand a better chance of getting hired elsewhere.

      2) Give specific people no notice, but lots of severance, so they don’t have any opportunity to exact their revenge on the company if you’re kinda suspicious about how someone might take the news. Give the department as a whole several weeks of notice that cuts will be coming though, so workloads and documentation can be adjusted accordingly.

      In both cases layoffs were handled by the person’s line management, in person, with an HR person present to review the severance package and legal terms.

      Things NOT to do:
      -Crappy or no severance, or severance not considering length of employment
      -Laying people off any way other than in person, such as via voicemail or teleconference or having them watch a video online

    2. Natalie*

      I’ve been through two rounds of layoffs. Company A gave people a lot of notice (around 9 months notice that layoffs of some sort were coming, and then about 4 months notice of specific layoff decisions). A ton of people stayed through to the official layoff because the severance was fantastic. I’m pretty sure one of my coworkers ended up with a year’s salary. In my department, five people were laid off and four of them stayed through the end, which I suspect is quite good, statistically.

      Company B was incredibly disorganized and while they technically gave us a long notice period, it was incredibly vague and the date kept getting pushed forward with little to no warning. (As in, I worked there for a full year under the cloud of “layoffs coming eventually” but didn’t have a date until about 65% of the way through that year, and I was the only one. During my last month we set out officially notices to a team of about 10 people, and I found out on my last day that they were clawing those notices back because they weren’t actually ready to lay them off.) The severance Company B was offering wasn’t good enough to keep anyone who hadn’t been there for 10+ years, so they all left. I refused to extend my time there at the last minute because I had found another job and couldn’t deal with the BS anymore. The whole thing was just dumb as hell.

  72. Ghost Writer*

    Last week’s open thread prompted a really good discussion about incessant diet talk. I didn’t realize how common it was for people to make outrageously inappropriate comments about other peoples’ bodies. With the New Year approaching, does anybody have any awesome tips for how to deal with them? I’m in recovery from an eating disorder and they’ve really struck a nerve. I’ve had a few stellar ones in my career, including one woman who (incorrectly) guessed my weight and announced it to the entire table at a business lunch.

    1. Tara S.*

      Not a ton of advice, I usually “hmm” and try to change the subject as quickly as I can. Or if it’s a coworker I like and have a good relationship with (it comes from all quarters!), I might make a comment about about how diet stuff bums me out and I don’t like to talk about it.

    2. LilySparrow*

      For general talk about diets, I think a “hm…subject change” is fine.

      For direct and inappropriate comments about your own or someone else’s body, I’m all for letting it show that you are legitimately appalled. Jaw drop, stare, the works. “Surely you don’t think that’s an appropriate thing to say to someone?”

  73. Recent Grad*

    I’m a fairly recent grad seeking guidance on a problem I’ve been having: a sense of sadness over the end of my educational career that is making it difficult for me to feel excited/motivated for the next stage in life (entering the workforce).

    I’ve always loved learning and enjoyed competing academically; school was where I succeeded. College has probably been my favorite experience in life thus far since I was able to form close relationships with my professors, conduct my own research, and gain exposure to new ideas. My college experiences helped me earn a fellowship to teach English in Europe after I graduated, a time during which I also enjoyed taking courses at the university in my host city.

    However, since returning to the US this summer after my fellowship ended, I’ve been in a funk. After spending around 18 years of my life in some sort of educational setting, I feel out of my element and as if my ability to achieve has been taken away from me. I’ve also realized how poorly I’ve planned for a career (I completed all of my college internships in the same field because I knew I could do pretty well in it rather than making a genuine effort to explore different career paths with internships). I’ve been working in retail because I don’t have a better plan at the moment, and I’m disappointed with myself. I’m daydreaming about grad school, but fortunately also acknowledge that attending grad school without a clear goal would be a recipe for disaster.

    I’d appreciate anecdotes from others who have had this same experience after graduation, including how they’ve dealt with it. I’m especially interested in how people have found ways to incorporate intellectually stimulating material in their lives without being in an educational setting (I’m currently living in my tiny rural hometown, and I think the dearth of educational and cultural opportunities here is getting to me). Thank you for reading.

    1. babblemouth*

      Have you considered staying in academia? This might be more or less feasible depending on your field, but loving school and education is not common, and it takes a special kind of personality to stick to it – and it looks like this might be your personality!

      1. Recent Grad*

        I’ve considered it, but it also makes me nervous based on things I’ve heard about the lack of tenure-track positions available for professors. For what it’s worth, I studied history, so that’s probably what I’d want to pursue further.

          1. Recent Grad*

            If I were going to teach, it would probably only be adults…I taught kids between the ages of 10 and 18 in Europe and I felt like I had difficulty relating to and interacting with them to some extent. Then again, I don’t think I ever felt completely comfortable in college when I was TAing, so I’m not sure if that’s something that would get better with time or a sign that teaching really isn’t for me.

            I would also say that I teach and assist better one-on-one versus to a whole group of people. I tutored in college and that went fairly well.

            1. Justin*

              I felt like you and became a teacher of adults.

              You might not be great at teaching now (no one is at the start) but you can learn. And then you can read research and be stimulated.

              1. Recent Grad*

                Would you mind sharing a little about what and where you teach (i.e., university or another type of institution)?

                1. Justin*

                  Hope you see this.

                  So, 2008: Taught overseas for two years (not a bad plan, but not for everyone)
                  2010: Started various part time teaching jobs at private institutions
                  2013: Job at nonprofit managing/teaching ESL
                  2017: Teaching/training government workers, though I’m technically an employee of a university I work in a gov’t office.

                  You can skip straight to one of my later jobs since you have some experience though. I didn’t.

              2. Recent Grad*

                It seems as if I don’t have the option to reply directly to your comment outlining your teaching experiences, so I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you here. I’m not very familiar with career paths open to those who want to teach adults, so it was interesting to read about the different positions you’ve had.

            1. Recent Grad*

              Duly noted! I did briefly think about law school because I thought it would allow me to go back to school, give me the chance to make a good salary, and honestly it just sounded prestigious. But those aren’t the best reasons to go to grad school, if I’m being honest, I don’t know if that career path would be a good fit with my personality. So I’m not going down that rabbit hole (at least for the time being anyway).

              1. Coder von Frankenstein*

                Agreed. Law school is not a choice to be taken for lack of any better ideas. If it turns out you can’t stand lawyering, you’ll be buried under a mountain of debt with no way to pay it off.

                Mostly I would say… take it easier on yourself! I’ve known a lot of people, including me, who graduated college and then found themselves saying, “Uh… now what?” There’s no shame in working retail or food service while you sort out your answer to that question. Think about what industries might be good for you, and look for an entry-level job in one of them. If it doesn’t work out, you can try something else.

                I will say that I have known quite a few software developers with non-STEM degrees (again, including myself). If your talents and interests bend that way, it’s a field where raw smarts and technical aptitude can take you far. But not everyone wants to sling code all day.

                1. Recent Grad*

                  Thanks for the reminder to take it easier on myself; sometimes it is definitely needed. I wouldn’t describe myself as someone who’s particularly interested in tech/computers, but then again, neither was my friend getting an MLIS degree, and now she has a job that involves coding and loves it. So I’ll certainly try to keep my options open career-wise.

              2. Trout 'Waver*

                Yeah, those are bad reasons to go to law school. The pay isn’t great except all the way at the top. And it’s not really prestigious, unless you in the top 1% of attorneys.

                I was just suggesting it because it seems that you would be a good fit for doing legal research based on what you’ve said here.

          1. JS#2*

            Agree! I was in OP’s position about five years ago after grad school.

            I tried to be a high school teacher, spent a couple years in the private sector and ended up in academia in a support position (non-teaching / administrative). It was really hard to get this job (so much competition!) but you get the intellectual perks of being at a university, employee study privilege, and the satisfaction of contributing to Something Good.

            BUT! It was really valuable for me to spend some time in the private sector to step away from education for a while. It helps you reorient yourself, and you can decide if you like being in the educational system because it’s just all you know… or if you really do love it.

            1. Recent Grad*

              That’s a good point that being a professor isn’t the only job opportunity in academia. I’ll try to do some research on administrative positions.

              Spending some time away from education is also probably a good idea for me…as I said elsewhere, I’m still romanticizing it to some extent.

    2. LALAs*

      I loved school. Really loved college and grad school…not so much law school, but still. It is a hard shift to make. Part of the reason I loved school was that I knew exactly what was expected of me and that I could deliver. Spend some time thinking about what you like to do, what you are good at, what would someone pay you to do. Expect there to be a learning curve at any job you take – but you can learn to be good at it and you will feel good about mastering it.

      I would suggest talking to your college’s career office about what you can do with your experience. Also, just because you aren’t a student anymore doesn’t mean you stop learning. Or competing. For the learning, there are a ton of free online courses now (ex. Edx) so you can branch out and study something new without any student loans.

      1. Recent Grad*

        Your comment that school is a place where you know what’s expected and how to deliver really hit home for me. I’m a little afraid that I can’t transfer that success to a career. Since school came easily to me, I’m not used to dealing with much of a learning curve, so I think I’ll need to work on preparing myself to expect that at new jobs and cutting myself some slack if things don’t go so well at first.

        Thank you for the suggestion of looking into free online courses — I’m excited to see what’s out there.

    3. Tara S.*

      I felt like this a bit in my first job after college. I missed the life I had in college, I missed the people and patterns and the achievable goals. Part of getting over it was just time. Also, a year after graduating I went back to campus for a reunion tour. And that was the first time I realized that college wasn’t the same as when I had left. Most of the people I knew had also graduated, and only a few underclassmen were left. I missed the predictability of classes and grades, but I had new challenges in my life and a lot of adulting to learn how to do now instead of school.

      As far as intellectual stimulation: read non-fiction about topics you don’t know about. I really liked The Gene: An Intimate History by Siddhartha Mukherjee, and Far From the Tree by Andrew Solomon. I also read tons of articles online. After college, I really fell into Tumblr (I know, I know) but it opened me up to a lot of world views I hadn’t considered (I know it’s not great site at times, but I credit it with teaching me about racism/ableism/queer issues/etc.). Also, I found a fandom that loved to write meta and dissect the source material, so I geeked out on all the literary analysis.

      1. Recent Grad*

        I went back to my university for Homecoming a little over a year after graduating and I had a similar experience: I recognized hardly any of the current students, and things just didn’t look the same as they had when I was a student. I had a great time catching up with professors, so my visit wasn’t soured by this feeling, but it was definitely strange. I still romanticize college life, but I think I’m starting to realize that my time there can’t be replicated.

        I appreciate your advice about looking into intriguing non-fiction, and I agree with you on Tumblr. I haven’t explored Tumblr too much, but I have seen some surprisingly thoughtful and analytical posts before, and it’s good to know there’s more where that came from.

    4. MissGirl*

      I don’t know if you’re still reading this but it doesn’t sound like you’ve ever had a career outside of academia and retail. Don’t stay in those roles out of fear of the unknown. Changing your life is always terrifying but that doesn’t make it the wrong path.

      When I finished my undergrad, I was terrified. I started a job, which I didn’t like very much because it was boring but it was entry level. It eventually grew into a job I loved. When I went back for my MBA, it was terrifying but I succeeded.

      Jobs come with structure and assignments so don’t worry stress about losing that. Jobs also have a built-in teaching model. Your schooling is only the start of your education. The people who succeed the most at their job find ways to learn and expand their skills through outside learning. Jobs also come with money, which is awesome. Instead of paying to work, someone pays you!

      Try life outside the academia bubble. If after a few years, you still miss it then consider going back.

      1. Recent Grad*

        Thanks for the encouraging words! I’ll admit that change makes me nervous and the work world seems like the great unknown right now. It’s good to know I’m probably just overthinking things.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      One option for the figure it out stage would be to sign up with a temp agency. It can pay better than retail, it’s often much more than the old- stereotype receptionist/admin spots, and it can give you a lot of exposure to new industries in your area. I had one temp job covering for someone in a tech company’s corporate communications department. They liked the work I did on the company client newsletter, so threw me a challenge. They had just bought a smaller company, and I edited its technical documentation to match the new company’s style guide.
      It was my first introduced to the work of technical writing.
      One other lesson from that experience of mine. Just because it’s a temp position, doesn’t mean that they may not be considering it temp-to-perm. If you like the work if you like the people talk to them about long-term possibilities before you accept a job elsewhere. I left that temp position for a job at a small engineering start up..and kicked myself for years because the woman I’d been backing up was promoted shortly after her return, and they hired…the next temp.

      1. Recent Grad*

        I hadn’t considered temping, but that sounds like a great way to explore different fields and something that could help me find a permanent position if I find an industry I enjoy. I’ll definitely look into that.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The bigger agencies also have programs where regular temps can qualify for health insurance, too.

    6. Minerva McGonagall*

      Hi fellow history major! I felt very much like you do now after my graduation nearly 5 years ago.

      I ended up working in higher ed, because I felt that finding a tenure track position in my specific area of history would be nearly impossible. I really enjoy my work because I still use the skills I gained in my history degree, and I was able to go to graduate school for free through the university I worked for. I could have gotten advanced history degrees, which I do want to do eventually, but I got an education degree to market myself for higher level positions in colleges/universities. Many colleges/universities will have some sort of tuition remission/reimbursement as a benefit for employees that you could take advantage of. Even though it wasn’t history, I was interested in it and I got to be in a classroom and learning which I loved.

      You can do a lot with your history degree for a lot of college departments. Writing, research, analyzing, etc. I got my first job because I was a history major-Boss saw that and knew I knew how to write. Based on what you’ve said above, Study Abroad or Academic Affairs could be a good spot to start out in, but also think if there’s any department that you used a lot that you may have an interest in. It’s all about the transferable skills you have and how you share those skills.

      As for staying academically challenged, do you still have access to your school email address/library? If not, reach out and see if you can get an alumni account? You may be able to access sites like JSTOR that way and spend some time reading new articles. Good luck!

      1. Recent Grad*

        Thanks so much for sharing your experiences! I really appreciate hearing how someone else was able to use skills gained from a history major to succeed in higher ed. The benefits of working in higher ed, such as tuition reimbursement, also sound very attractive to me. I’m excited to look into this field more.

        When it comes to my school email address and login information, all of that was unfortunately deactivated a few months after I graduated. Getting an alumni account sounds like a great idea, though. I will absolutely be asking my university if that’s an option!

    7. Joolery*

      Former history major here as well, also felt suffocated by the lack of intellectual stimulation after coming back from an education abroad experience. Why not teach overseas for a year? I did the JET Program in Japan, but there are many similar programs/schools in Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, and other countries outside of Asia as well. For me it was the MOST intellectually stimulating thing I could do, pushed me out of my comfort zone for sure. Because I was teaching English, it was still kind of in an educational setting, just on the other side of the desk so to speak. And you can make good money depending on the school/program. It has all the benefits of a gap year/study abroad experience because you can gather your thoughts and try something totally different that you’ll never get to do again, but also you’re working, not just backpacking or traveling around. I highly recommend it!

      1. Recent Grad*

        Hi! I’m not sure how clearly I articulated this in my original post above, but my recent experience abroad actually was teaching English—more specifically, I taught English in Germany for a year on a Fulbright fellowship. Since I came back home after finishing that program this summer, I’ve been trying to deal with no longer being in any sort of educational setting while also trying to figure out what’s next for me in terms of a career.

  74. CheeryO*

    I’m polishing up my PE (Professional Engineer) application and HOLY CRAP is it making my imposter syndrome rear its ugly head. I have more than enough experience on paper, but I feel like it’s not enough, and it’s been really challenging to figure out how to write up my experience in a way that has enough detail while also showing progression and uses the key words and everything else you’re supposed to do. It doesn’t help that I have mostly softer engineering experience since I’m on the regulatory side. I guess I’ll just do it and see what happens. Any words of wisdom from the PEs here?

    1. Uncivil Engineer*

      The application to take the exam? My experience is from >10 years ago but it seemed as if they allowed anything that was even close to the right experience and the right number of years. I don’t know anyone whose application to sit for the exam was rejected.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I have gathered this varies quite a bit from state to state. I def know people who had to rewrite and resubmit.

      2. CheeryO*

        Unfortunately I’m in New York, which is notoriously strict especially with anything other than straight design experience. I’m probably still over-analyzing, though!

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Yeah, I went through the NYS office, too. Very strict and there’s tricks to the phrasing (or, there were).

          Since you’re on the regulatory side, do you have any field experience? Analysis?

          1. CheeryO*

            Yeah, I regulate wastewater treatment plants, so I do quite a bit of plan review, plus permit writing and facility inspections. I’ve heard various tips on how to phrase things, so I’m being careful to really explain the engineering aspects of the job, since sometimes I feel less like an engineer and more like a paper pusher! I do have my M.S., so luckily that’s one year in the bag no matter what.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Write up a draft of all the experience (I used excel to keep it all straight) and run it by someone more experienced than you are and preferably someone involved in your local association, too. I was really lucky when I was putting mine in that one of our partners was involved with the local NCEES and he gave me lots of good advice on wording.

      I have known people who had to resubmit their applications, so asking as many more senior PE’s as possible for advice is not foolish.

      1. CheeryO*

        Thanks, I definitely plan on doing that! I’ve also gotten to look at several applications from coworkers who have applied and gotten in recently. They don’t do the same work as I do, but it’s been helpful to see how they structured it.

  75. Senorita Conchita*

    My coworkers are still on it about me and a male coworker. I get visibly nervous/tense now because the one day they literally stopped what they were doing and started at us. (I was sitting quietly doing my work and he was doing his work.) We don’t even talk to one another, so I don’t know what their deal is. How can I make this stop? It’s just so awkward and painful.

    1. babblemouth*

      Wow, that sounds incredibly obnoxious, and the kind of behaviour best left behind in middle school. Have you talked to your manager about this? “Tom, Dick and Harry have been making comments about Bob and I, and I find it extremly distracting, on top of inappropriate. I clearly asked them to stop but they haven’t. Can you address this with them?”

    2. Four lights*

      Are you the one who posted a little while ago? Depending on what your coworkers are doing/how long this has been going on it may be time to escalate this. “I wouldn’t normally bring up something like this but for X amount of time these people have been trying to set up myself and A. I’ve repeated asked them to stop discussing this, but they continue to do Y and Z, and quite frankly, it’s affecting my ability to do my work.”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I agree with this. They are creating an uncomfortable work environment and honestly, this behavior is edging into sexual harassment territory.

      2. Senorita Conchita*

        Yes- I don’t want to be a broken record, but it’s still going on. I feel bad like it’s my fault because I act nervous, but I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m doing my job. I don’t know why they are acting that way.

        1. Four lights*

          It’s not your fault. They are being weird and out of line. Definitely approach your boss or HR. I know you’ve talked with your male coworker before; maybe the two of you can bring up the problem together.

            1. valentine*

              I think Four lights might be referring to Annoyed anon.

              Don’t worry about mentioning a situation more than once.

        2. WellRed*

          It’s time to talk to HR. As Detective Amy says, this is getting awfully close to sexual harassment. FWIW, your coworkers are weird and childish.

        3. Natalie*

          Because they suck, you know, just generally. As suggested, I think it’s probably time to escalate this.

  76. Matilda Jefferies*

    Tips for getting past BEC stage with a coworker, once you’ve arrived there?

    There’s just the two of us on the team, plus the manager. And I’m finding myself increasingly annoyed with my colleague. It’s almost certainly more about me than him, and I’m aware that my irritation with him is a symptom of the larger fact that I’ve hit the end of the learning curve at this job and I’m ready to move on.

    But at the same time, all this self-awareness doesn’t help me much, and he just drives me round the bend some days. It’s going to take me probably a year to get a new job, and he doesn’t appear to be going anywhere, so we’re going to be working closely together for the next several months at least. So if anyone has ideas on how I can tone down my general state of irritation at this one person in particular, I’d love to hear them!

    1. babblemouth*

      Can you put some physical distance betwen you two? I was in a similar situation with a colleague, and just hearing her voice was enough to make me stabby. I used our office’s solo working spaces as much as possible when I didn’t need to be in meetings with her. It helped a bit.

      1. mr. brightside*

        Distance absolutely helps. There was one coworker who I got along with okay, with some minor issues but we managed. But we were at other ends of the hallway from each other. If we’d had to share space, I don’t know how I would have handled it. Probably not well.

      2. Forking Shirtballs*

        Yes! This worked for me. I was at BEC with a judgmental, negative coworker who is on my team. Things got a LOT better after I moved desks and made it a point to strategically plan WFH days to have less interaction with her.

    3. Anonymouse for this*

      Oh dear – you have my sympathies. Am in similar situation – on 1 year project and working with annoying coworker has been tough but he’s one of a dozen people on the team so it’s been manageable. Just found out the project has been extended for another 6 months – and it will likely be just the two of us for the last 4 mths. I’m dreading it. I use earbuds so I can minimize interaction. Am going to try to use it as a learning experience to work on my own self – why am I reacting the way I do to his actions, to separate the personal from the work. And I’m trying to be honest with myself – is what he’s asking for unreasonable or is it the fact that it’s him asking for it.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      There’s the anthropologist approach: pretending to study a rare, soon-to-be-extinct species. Use a Steve Irwin-type accent in your head. “Krikey! The male of the species has just laid another egg!”
      Good Luck!

  77. I'm A Little Teapot*

    People’s thoughts would be appreciated, I’m not sure what to think.

    I’m in the middle of a very high stress deadline period. A couple weeks ago (before Thanksgiving), things hit a big snag, deadlines were at risk, etc. My management was aware of this, and were trying to figure out how to help. Problem was, the thing that would have helped was off the table (they tried, but it wasn’t possible). And deadlines couldn’t be moved. Ok. So plan B involved me just buckling down and getting things done. Except mgmt kept bugging me to see what they could do to help, and it was taking up valuable time.

    Simultaneously, I was in emotional free fall because of some stuff at home. And it showed. I spent a day at the office obviously close to tears, was obviously stressed, etc. Towards the end of the week, I lost my temper and semi-politely asked the manager and VP to just leave me alone and let me work. I apologized to both shortly afterwards, explained about what was going on at home, everything is fine there (and met the deadlines).

    Earlier this week, I was talking with a coworker who’s in another office. That office is merging into our dept (my company bought their company), so no one knows anyone very well yet. Coworker and I ended up chatting about something off topic, and were kinda commiserating over deadlines, etc. I made a comment that I’d lost my temper a bit and they backed off afterwards, and coworker said “oh yeah, I heard about that.”

    Literally, there were 3 people in the office when that incident happened. I certainly didn’t tell anyone in the other office. Which means, someone in management did. This makes me feel a little weird. I barely know those people, I don’t want the first thing they hear about me is that I lost my temper! What do you think?

    1. fposte*

      That is a little odd, though it’s also possible that co-worker was really just going along with what you were saying and trying to sound in the loop. You could ask your manager about it if you wanted, just to see if it wasn’t a bigger concern for her than you realized, but I also think it would be okay to just note it as weird and let it go.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Worth asking ab
      I gear myself up for nerve-wracking conversations like that with the best/worst interpretations in mind.
      Worst, they think I’m incompetent
      Best, they admire that I told them what I needed to complete the task–time alone to work– AND then did it.

      You can approach this as a project wrapup meeting — formally list out what went wrong, what went right, and how to prevent each problem from happening again.

  78. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    Hey y’all,

    I just wanted to pop in and give you a little bit of an update to my situation. It’s been awhile!!!!

    The lawsuit is ongoing. I had to hire another attorney because my first attorney just wanted to settle everything by writing letters. He sent them an offer to settle with a demand and they countered with…..$1,500. I told him to counter by subtracting $1,500 from my initial demand. He felt I should drop $20K. In the first step of negotiations. They offer $1,500 and I should drop $20K. Yeah, no. So he’s out and I’ve got a new attorney. This guy is like “Screw letters, I’ll just file the lawsuit.” Come out of the gate like gangbusters…that’s what I like.

    I received my follow-up cardiac ultrasound and have experienced 100% cardiac recovery. 100%….yeah baby!!!!! And no restrictions. I can have all the bacon I want, and was permitted to resume adding salt to my meals. No physical restrictions…which is great because a week before I got that news, I had painted the outside of my entire home all by myself. Glad I dodged that bullet!

    My disability claim was denied because I am not disabled according to their rules and I have to be disabled for 12 months. Social security doesn’t offer temporary disability so I’ve got three months’ worth of bills I’ll never be able to catch up on. In fact, because of that, I’ll be losing my freshly painted home in January.

    It has just been bad news after bad news….my laptop died in September and I’ve been using my parents’ hand me down Windows XP computer. I can’t load half the websites out there (including AAM) and that computer doesn’t talk to my HP printer. No money to buy a new computer or fix the laptop so I might as well toss my nice printer. The day after my laptop died, the central a/c unit in my home died as well and of course there is no money to have that fixed. Fortunately, I live in Floriduh so it’s more temperate than the northern states, but it’s still gotten kind of cold (for Floriduh).

    And, on top of it, out of all of the agencies I reported my former employers to not a single one has offered me any protections from my termination.

    At this point, my whole takeaway from all of this is that I am sorry I didn’t keep my mouth shut. At least that way I’d still be able to pay my bills and maybe I would have been able to buy my family some Christmas presents this year. At the very least, I’d still be able to keep my home (and it’s really not all that, just a gorgeous double wide mobile home in a very desirable park in Pinellas County, FL but it’s mine, at least until mid-January, and I was happy with and proud of my home). The end result to me has been too costly. Doing the right thing has NOT been worth it.

    (Don’t get me wrong…I’m not advocating everyone start doing the wrong thing, but for me, I’ll never open my mouth again. The cost has been too high for me personally.)

    I have been back to work, but the “blank space” on my resume has made it impossible to find a job earning what I was earning before and what I’m making now doesn’t even cover my monthly bills. Which brings up a question: I was hired to do data entry and customer service and that is what I based my salary on. Now that they’ve got me in here, they are having me do tons of higher level stuff. I truly feel I am being taken advantage of. Any advice on how to put a stop to this or command a higher wage for higher level work?

      1. Youth*

        Although now that I think about it, is it possible for you to put together some kind of GoFundMe? You had to leave your job for ethical reasons, and you’ve had a serious health problem this year. I imagine people will want to help if they can. Especially around the holidays!

        1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          I pretty much blew all of my GoFundMe capital rescuing cats. What few friends I have are sick and tired of sending me money. Not all of them agreed with me blowing the whistle, either……

      2. Woodswoman*

        It’s good to hear from you! I’ve been looking for a post from you for months, and have been worried by your silence in light of your medical condition. I’m relieved to hear you’re completely recovered from your heart condition.

        I’m sorry to hear your financial situation is such a challenge. While things are tough now, I hope your new attorney is able to get you a big settlement to ease the financial burden. Hope things look up for you soon.

        1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          Thanks Woodswoman. I’ve wanted to pop in and update y’all, but the computer I have (an old XP) doesn’t understand AAM. And everytime I do an update on the iPad, it reloads and I lose my comment. Most frustrating! I’m so very happy my heart has completely recovered….I was so scared about that.

          I’m hoping he can do something more, too. My first attorney really wasted a lot of time and I’m sincerely bummed about that. I’ll just have to do the best I can and that’s going to have to be good enough. Unfortunately, I hold myself to a really high standard so I have to adjust my standards a bit.

    2. Gumby*

      Do you have a job description of any sort? If so it makes it easier but even if not, it’s totally normal to use something like a 6-month anniversary at a job to say something like “When I was hired this job was described as A. But now I find myself doing a lot of B, C, and D as well, which I am happy to do. I do want to keep having growth opportunities [blah filler blah]. However, tasks B, C, and D are more consistent with a job with title X and salary $Y. Is that something I could work towards? / Is that a change that we could make official?” or something vaguely like that. I’m sure Alison has much better scripts – https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/the-ask-a-manager-guide-to-asking-for-a-raise.html

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Nope, no job description at all. Thank you for the script suggestion and link. I’ll take a look at those and see what I can make work for me. I truly appreciate your suggestion!

    3. CatCat*

      Glad to hear about your heart results coming back positive, but I’m so sorry about the financial situation you’re in and especially losing your home!! I hope your new lawyer can work out a better settlement option.

      I think Gumby has a great suggestion for approaching the higher level type of work you are doing.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Thanks CatCat, I hope he can also. He has more of the philosophy I want….sue ’em all and let God (and the jury) sort it out.

        I’m going to put together a document of all the suggestions and see which one would work best. I just have to hold it together until then….

    4. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      Hello from Pinellas as well. I am sorry to hear this update, but am SO in awe with admiration that you did speak up, even though the outcome has been difficult . If you do have your Go Fund Me still up, please email me.

    5. Nita*

      I’m glad you’re better. And I’m sorry about your home… I hope the new lawyer will eventually get you a settlement that makes up for it, and that you’ve got somewhere to stay in the meantime.

      About the new job… maybe give it a few months, then bring up the mismatch between the salary and the work. If that fails, use the job as a stepping stone to get back to what you used to do… at the least, it should be good for a recent reference.

    6. valentine*

      Can your library not help you with all of this?:
      ~find a refurbished computer
      ~find a printer that works with what you have
      ~provide computers and printers you can use

      If no, any swaps or freecycling in your area?

      It sounds like you’re not listing the whistleblown job. Is that advisable? Can you not list at least the skills and accomplishments?

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I haven’t listed the whistleblown job….I’ve been able to mention those skills under the pretext of other jobs, and working for myself.

        We do have a freecycle list…I’ve never had much luck with it but I did post there for a printer. No bites yet. It’s just all a struggle…..I can’t even load some of the job search sites, the browser is so outdated. So frustrating…..

  79. Mimmy*

    Another question: Best sources for training in Microsoft Office?

    I have been looking to refresh my skills in Microsoft Office, mainly Word, Excel and PowerPoint, and have been researching various sources. There are so many options! I’m thinking of either trying Udemy or LinkedIn Learning. I know Lynda dot com is another popular source.

    Thoughts?

    1. Emily S.*

      I’ve had great experiences with Lynda. I found some of their Excel classes very helpful.
      The best part is that it’s accessible for free via my library website. Check yours to see if you can get access!

      1. Canadian Jessie*

        Awesome – thanks for mentioning it! There were a few classes I was interested in, but didn’t want to pay for membership. Sure enough, I can get them free through my library!

  80. Teapot Translator*

    I’m very angry right now, but it’s really about disappointment.

    I’ve finally decided to change careers. I sent my resume, went to interviews. After I invested a full day (spread over several days) on a company that seemed like a great place, they offered me more than 10k under what I currently make. They wanted me to do more work for less pay.

    I’m really sad and disappointed and it’s manifesting as anger. I was foolishly expecting a small pay cut, but not over 10k less.

    1. Never*

      Did you communicate with them that it would be work more for less pay? Did you try to negotiate for more pay? Do they know how much you make now?

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Yes, they have all the information. Basically, they have a range for all newcomers, they offered the maximun within that range.

        1. Tara S.*

          Your frustration is understandable. There will be more jobs to apply to. This is not necessarily how every application will go. Best of luck, try to keep your head up.

  81. Peaches*

    This is probably a “shrug it off and don’t worry about it” kind of thing, but wondering how some of you would handle this.

    I am a woman in my mid 20’s. I have a female coworker in her early 50’s who is constantly making little remarks about her looks/wealth/intelligence/overall self being superior to mine (without saying it outright). Let me give some examples:

    “Hey Peaches, I ordered a sweatshirt online, but it’s WAY too big for me. I thought you may want it though.” (For what it’s worth, I’m 5’8/130 lbs, she is slightly shorter than me, but of comparable size. Not that that’s even the point – still inappropriate in my opinion no matter what my size was).

    Another time, I was telling her how I liked a store, Nordstrom Rack (a less expensive Norstrom store). Her response? “Yeah, I just wouldn’t be able to bring myself to shop there, I’m just not really a ‘shop of the sales rack’ kind of woman. I just really value quality.”

    “When are you going to get a new car, Peaches? Honestly, I just think you’d feel much safer in a new car” (No, I’d rather not have a car payment, thank you. My car may be old, but it runs great and I feel perfectly safe in it.)

    Every time I do something for her work-related (I’m in a support role and occasionally do work for her, although she is not my boss), she says “good job!” in the sort of voice that I kid you not a kindergarten teacher would use on 5 year olds. It’s so patronizing (especially when it’s very simple work that takes me no time to complete).

    She’s told me many times that by the time she was my age, she was making 6 figures and owned her own business, and how if I work hard, maybe someday I “could get there”.

    She has mentioned many times (unprompted) how pretty much everyone who lives in her neighborhood is a doctor or lawyer (which I assume is to show her wealth).

    She frequently shows me pictures of her daughters who are around my age and says, “aren’t they just SO beautiful?” and then follows it up with saying how they were “blessed with [her] blonde hair blue eye genes.” (I don’t have blue eyes or blonde hair, nor do I think that is the determining factor on someone being beautiful.)

    I know this all sounds super petty, but I just get so tired hearing all of this. She is a beautiful and smart woman, but I feel like she uses that to patronize others.

    1. Murphy*

      Ugh. Condescending af. Honestly, I’d probably give her curt responses out loud and fume internally.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Good grief, she sounds irritating. Is she like this with everybody, or just you? Either way, I would probably just try to ignore her, and not take anything she says personally. (Hard, right?) Respond appropriately to work-related stuff, of course, but the other things maybe you can just make non-committal “Hm, okay” noises and exit the conversation.

      For the sweatshirt, you might need a more direct “No, thanks.” (Also she is gross and rude, and you are free to think whatever you want when she says things like that!)

      For the car, and any other unsolicited opinions: “Thanks for your advice, I’ll think about it.” Then exit the conversation and do what you were going to do anyway, which is to continue to drive your car for as long as you feel it’s appropriate. Good luck!

    3. Meteor*

      My mom is just like what you’re describing. She always has to make someone else feel bad in order to build herself up. It’s terrible to deal with.

      A strategy that sometimes works is to actually call out the comments for being rude, if they’re particularly over the top. For example, “[Coworker], why would you say something like that? Don’t you think that’s rude? You’re likely to hurt people’s feelings.”

      Someone like this is unlikely to really change… so you can also try to view it with a different lens. They may be saying these things because they struggle with poor self-esteem and need to make themselves feel better. So you can choose to pity them instead of take it as a jab to your own self-esteem.

    4. babblemouth*

      What an obnoxious, insecure person. It’s so very tempting to sink to her level, and frankly if you can come up with a witty response on the spot when she says offensive things, you should. But overall, a deadpan “what a strange thing to say to a colleague” or even a simple “ok” (and immediately walking away) should do the trick.

      1. Nines*

        Oh this! I can’t say that I regularly would have the grace to say either of these things, but I wish I did. And you aren’t being petty (or any Less petty than most). This would really bug me! And I would likely silently fume. Probably crack and say something nasty and then be mortified about it. And repeat. So not much guidance, but solidarity for sure.

    5. CTT*

      Oh lord, she sounds awful. I think you’re best bet is to just not engage. Don’t start conversations with her, don’t go beyond polite yes/nos/“that’s so interesting, but if you’ll excuse me if I have to get on a call” when she talks to you.

    6. Asenath*

      Just give her a minimum response – “No, thank you” to the sweatshirt; “Mmmm” or “Uh-huh” to the boasting and “Oh, I like what I have” to the car suggestion. And if she persists, don’t respond instantly, look distracted and say “Sorry, I can’t talk now, I’m losing my place with .

      My favourite comment from someone like that was the claim that OF COURSE she bought all her clothing in ; you really can’t find anything fit to wear in our Entire Province, can you?? I think I murmured “mmmm” or “oh, really?” and moved off before I burst out laughing at the idea that it was impossible to buy clothing locally.

      When someone shows off photos of their children, all you need to do is make admiring noises. She’s showing them off and praising their hair and eyes because they’re her children, not because there’s something special about their hair and eyes in the opinion of anyone who is not their mother.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      What a sad pathetic excuse for a human being she is, and what an insecure person she must be to be so awful. Look at her as pathetic — that might help. Also, treat her ridiculous comments as Bingo moments. Tell yourself that for every 5 ridiculous comments you get to treat yourself — extra whipped cream at Starbucks or something.

    8. Deryn*

      You mentioned that she’s beautiful and smart, but it sounds like she feels this isn’t enough, or that other people (like you!) have something she doesn’t, and is trying to highlight her own accomplishments and downplay yours to make herself feel better. I had a friend in college who would always make comments like this (in relation to academics). A mutual friend let me know about a comment she’d made when I wasn’t around that made it strikingly clear that this was only to do with my friend feeling inferior around me. I let that friendship quietly fizzle out after graduation, following a couple of incredibly (intentionally) hurtful comments, but that perspective made it a lot easier to think, “Yikes, she must feel really terrible about herself to say that,” rather than “Yikes, I feel really terrible when she says that.” EASIER isn’t EASY though, it’s always a work in progress.

      1. valentine*

        She’s an insecure creep obsessed with you. I wonder if this would shut her up: an emotionless “You must feel terrible.” Every time.

        There’s someone I have to interact with in the course of her work that I thought would be impossible to shut up and depersonalize from, but I reset the dynamic by dialing all the way back to only speaking to her about her work, which means I mostly thank her. I don’t respond to anything she says unless I have to and I overwhelmingly don’t have to. I let the silence be and it’s glorious. If you can do that without harming your reputation, it might be worth trying, just to see if she’ll bang on without you as her audience.

    9. irene adler*

      All this screams insecurity on her part.

      So why is she feeling insecure around you?

      I would pity her. But I get that it gets tiring to hear her cutting comments. Maybe don’t engage her so much?

    10. matcha123*

      I had a quasi coworker do your first example to me and another coworker. However, I was about 2 inches shorter and the other coworker at least 6 inches shorter than her. She brought in her old clothing that was “going to fit because we’re the same size” and let’s just say, we tried on the clothes in the locker room and it was very clear that that was not the case.

      It sounds like this woman wants to be recognized for her achievements. I have a coworker at my current place who will drop lines about how she or her husband had dinner with so-and-so famous person, or how she was cleaning up and found that she’d accidentally left a few thousand dollars in some random place.
      I can only guess it’s her way of making small talk and being interesting? Showing that she is someone of worth? That she wants to remind you that she was once in your place, maybe to … keep you in your place?

      Who knows.

      If you have to work with her for the long term, I would just say “Oh, really? That’s interesting.” Hopefully there are other coworkers she can focus on if she’s not getting the attention from you it seems that she wants?

    11. Rusty Shackelford*

      How would I handle it? Every comment about what I should buy or where I should shop would get one of the following responses:

      What an odd thing for you to say to me.
      Yes, that sounds like something you would say.
      Oh, I guess that’s okay for some people.
      Yes, I suppose some people think that.

      And then I’d quietly laugh to myself because she’s such a sad, insecure person who can only be happy when she’s attempting to put herself above others.

    12. Nita*

      I’d start patronizing her right back. Seems obvious there’s plenty there to patronize. Bless her heart, the poor woman can’t feel good about herself just by getting up in the morning… she’s always got to be all “mirror, mirror on the wall, I’m the fairest one of all… right? Right?!!”

    13. Liane*

      All of these might be a new use for one of Miss Manners’ lesser-known responses, “How nice FOR you.”

      Except for “Hey Peaches, I ordered a sweatshirt online, but it’s WAY too big for me. I thought you may want it though.” For that one, I be tempted to use, “Oh, how VERY kind of you to think of me. But, alas, if it’s way too large for you, it’ll be way, way too large for me.”

    14. Snow Drift*

      I’d tell her she isn’t pretty enough on the outside to be that ugly on the inside, but I make terrible decisions and you shouldn’t listen to me.

    15. NoMercy*

      She’s told me many times that by the time she was my age, she was making 6 figures and owned her own business, and how if I worked hard, maybe someday “I could get there”

      Response: “That would be great! Perhaps you could let me know how it went to hell for you so I can learn from that mistake” (smiling widely)

    16. Anna Held*

      Maybe (maybe) she had her own business and was making 6 figures in her 20s, but where is she now? She’s working with you. She’s higher up, but it doesn’t sound like she’s that high up. She’s insecure and she’s using whatever she can to hold over you, which she likely does with everyone. And it may very well push her buttons to have a much younger woman as a colleague.

    17. Toxic Waste*

      Omg…. this is me with my coworker right now. They’re insecure. Very insecure. You’ve done nothing wrong. She’s jealous or envious of you- you’re youth, you’re smarts, etc. Rise above it, no matter how ridiculous she gets and know that she is the one with the problem, not you.

      I’m going through this right now- so you have my sympathies. Never let her see it get to you though, even if it hurts. Walk away if it starts to become too much. Hang in there. I’m lucky to have found a friend there and she just lets the evil coworker’s comments roll off her by speaking with confidence and matter-of-factly. I use humor to defuse a tense conversation. Good luck and keep your head high. Your coworker is the one with the issues, not you.

    18. LilySparrow*

      This is a dominance display. She is, in dog language, trying to hump your face to show you she is higher in the pack order. Her doing this only matters if you also believe you are operating in a dog pack instead of, you know, a workplace populated by human beings.

      If you want to drive her batty, Rusty Shackleford’s suggestions should do the trick:
      “What an odd thing for you to say to me.
      Yes, that sounds like something you would say.
      Oh, I guess that’s okay for some people.
      Yes, I suppose some people think that.”

      Or you could just give her a bland “hm..” and visibly shrug her off. She will try harder for a while (aka an “extinction burst”) and then go look for an easier mark.

      I do wonder if she’s so wealthy and successful, what happened to her 6-figure business? Maybe you could ask her why she’s working with you. I did that to somebody once. “Wow, that’s amazing. But I’m curious – if that was going so well, why are you working here?” He sputtered a while and came up with some story about how he needed a change of pace because of the stress.

      For fun, look up the old Britcom “Keeping Up Appearances.” It’s the truly ridiculous extreme of a person trying to maintain bragging rights over everyone she meets, at all costs.

    19. nonegiven*

      >She’s told me many times that by the time she was my age, she was making 6 figures and owned her own business, and how if I work hard, maybe someday I “could get there”.

      Really? What happened?

    20. Fluff*

      Many great phrases here.

      I wanted to add some wisdom from The Captain. When you comment on co-worker’s snotty stuff, it may feel awkward, like you are the one being rude. You. Are. NOT. You are “passing that package of awkward right back to the sender.” Changing my mindset on this has been a game changer.

      Do it calmly and every time.
      Check out Captain Awkward. I get a lot of gems from AAM and the Captain.

    21. Jasnah*

      Nothing to add but you should check out Kristen Wiig’s SNL character who basically does this. “Hey I baked my famous cookies!” “Well, I baked a 7-layer cake, and it’s world famous *plays with hair* Gordon Ramsey says he’s never seen a better cake *plays with hair* It’s so good that even Beyonce wanted the recipe…”

  82. Fabulous*

    Our team was notified this week that our boss’s position has been eliminated in an effort to consolidate several similar business units within our company. We still report to her (let’s call her Carrie) until January 1st, and she’ll be around until Feb 1st to help with the transition, but we’ll be reporting to an entirely new boss (Jane) – and on top of it all I’m going out on maternity leave at the same time (end of January).

    Has anyone else experienced something similar? How did things pan out for you?

    Both Carrie and Jane work remotely so that’s not a huge change, but I just have a feeling this transition is going to be a cluster. Carrie has been working on getting me a promotion and pay increase for 6+ months, but it was put on hold this past summer due to company restructuring. The company is still in flux, and I’m worried it won’t go through before Carrie leaves. I can’t guarantee that Jane will be on board with the advancement (even though it’s long overdue, highly warranted, and everyone in Carrie’s current management line is on board) or that she will go to bat for me as much as Carrie has. Jane is taking over 15 divisions, so we’re only one team of many. Obviously her focus can’t solely be on me.

    My promotion isn’t the only thing I’m worried about though. Coupled with the fact that I’ll be on maternity leave for the first 3 months she’s taken over, I will be at a heavy disadvantage in terms of leverage and learning curve with Jane. I hate the idea of leaving right when things are changing and coming back into the unknown. Arrg…

    1. valentine*

      Ask Carrie what she can do to wrap it up so it’s off Jane’s plate and yours and you can enjoy your leave and return to a clean, higher, better-paid slate.

  83. Jan Levinson*

    How do you deflect personal questions at work that you don’t care to answer?

    I’m 25 years old, and have been married for about 3 1/2 years. My husband and I started trying for a baby about 6 months ago with no success. I feel like suddenly all of my coworkers (who are mostly 20+ years my senior) are asking me when I’m having children. Not only is it inappropriate, but it’s a really sensitive topic for me as I thought I would be pregnant by now. How do I respond to this?

    1. Murphy*

      I always think the answer to that question should be “NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS” but that’s sadly not appropriate in most situations. What’s better is probably something like “Not right now. I’ll let you know if that changes.” Some kind of soft shutting down of the topic, unless they keep pressing beyond that.

      1. valentine*

        ~Not if I see you first.
        ~I hope no one’s ever so rude as to ask me that.
        ~Why would I want to do that?
        ~If you like that sort of thing.
        ~Jupiter 2032.
        ~I broke the mold.

    2. KR*

      “What a wierd question to ask someone!” “That seems kind of personal.” “I haven’t even thought about it” Sorry that sounds hard to deal with. I think that’s also a question you can laugh off and then change the subject or just give them a LOOK and then change the subject. It’s a rude question to ask if you don’t know the person personally.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I always advocate for responding “why are you asking me about my sex life” but I understand that you have to have a certain kind of personality to pull that off.

    4. Four lights*

      This sucks. I’ve been through this. Depending on how you feel, you could try to educate them-“You know, that question is starting to be considered out of bounds nowadays, since you never know if the person you’re asking may have some sort of issue getting pregnant.”

      Or “I prefer not to talk about personal issues like that.”

      Or the long pause, the blank stare, and “I beg your pardon?’

    5. Washi*

      If you want to gently clue people in to the fact that you’re getting this a lot, maybe “Huh, everyone is asking me that lately!” + subject change

      Or “Oh, I kinda like to keep stuff like that private. How are you doing?”

      1. LALAs*

        I’ve never been in that position, but I’ve always wanted the person asked to respond with an equally rude question.

        -How is your prostate? (for men asking)
        -Do you still get your period? (for older woman asking)
        -Do you use birth control? (for any straight person asking)
        – Why would I talk to you about my reproductive choices? (for people who like honesty)

        1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

          I also like, “Have you planned your living will? Very important for someone your age.”

    6. NewWorkingMama*

      I straight up lied to people’s faces when they asked these questions. I would literally just say whatever random lie popped into my head from we don’t want kids to no we’re waiting XYZ years to I already have 12 (jk, but I should have said this. It’s so so inappropriate for anyone to ask these questions precisely because 1. it’s none of their business and 2. it’s sensitive for most people. Years of lying did actually make the surprise on their face when I announced my pregnancy worth it though. I got a lot of “But you said…!” and the sweet sweet joy of responding “Oh yeah, I lied.” Long story short, respond however you want to, just know that they’re in the wrong and being weird, which gives you the right to respond in whatever way you’re comfortable.

    7. LJay*

      One of my friends went with, “Let me get this straight. Did you just ask me if I am currently having unprotected sex with my husband? That’s really personal. Why would you ask that?”

      But that’s probably not appropriate for work.

      1. Midwest writer*

        I used something similar when I told my boss I was pregnant — he asked if we had planned the pregnancy. Not his business and sounds a lot like, “do you use birth control?”

    8. mr. brightside*

      What I’d want to say: “Why, are you trying to plan maternity leave coverage?”
      What I’d probably go with instead: “Eh, it’s not worth talking about. How about those TPS reports?”

    9. AJK*

      My ex-husband and I tried for years, and through those years I started to come up with lots of different answers. I tried keeping things vague – “Oh, maybe someday,” or “We’ll see,” or “Not right now,” whatever. I also discovered that changing the subject right after that works wonders, especially if you redirect to asking the person in front of you a question so they can then move on to talking about themselves.
      After a while I honestly stopped caring – the question hurt, and I was tired of feeling uncomfortable, so I just started answering honestly. “Whenever the test comes back positive!” “Well, we’ve been trying for three years with no luck, so I don’t know!” And now, eleven years later, when people ask if I have children I tell them the truth and I don’t care anymore if it makes people uncomfortable. I’m the one who has to live with it, and besides, you asked. I also try to tell friends (if it comes up) that it’s not a question they should be asking. It’s inappropriate, but also, asking me if I have children is a sensitive thing, it’s not the “small talk” conversation topic people tend to think it is. So, PSA: don’t ask people if they have kids unless they bring it up first. And don’t ask me if I have kids, because I’ll tell you no but I’ll also tell you why, and then we’ll both be uncomfortable.

      1. Washi*

        Huh, I think “are you planning to have kids/when are you having kids?” is definitely appropriate, but I’m surprised that “do you have kids?” is not an ok getting-to-know you question, especially in a social context.

    10. Could be Anyone*

      I’ve been getting asked when my boyfriend and I are getting married for years. I usually say “don’t worry, you’ll be the first to know” in a super sarcastic way. Or sometimes “oh, we’re not engaged” as if I’m confused.

      (Getting married will only lead to questions about reproducing anyway.)

    11. LilySparrow*

      I made my pushy relatives/acquaintances stop doing this with one of two answers:

      “On February 11 at 9:32 pm.”

      or

      “You’ll be the first to know. No, really, I’ll call you first, before I tell my husband. Tell you what, why don’t I call you if I take a pregnancy test. You can come with me in the toilet and watch me pee on the stick.”

      Probably the first one would go over better at work as a joke.

  84. Duckles*

    I had a screener call at my dream job recently. They said they would be arranging “group interviews” in a few weeks. This is a job for people with advanced degrees and several years of experience. It’s the sort of job that comes up maybe once a year so I don’t want to withdraw lightly, but a group interview seems nuts to me. (It’s colored a little by the fact the postings also says they’re looking for someone who doesn’t seek attention, which I found really odd.) Has anyone gone through this?

    1. smart_nickname*

      I did. It went better than I had expected.

      And then I learnt they offered the job to the only internal candidate anyway. (It was a public institution, they needed to have a recruitment process).

      It’s probably a waste of time, but you don’t lose anything by participating.

      1. mr. brightside*

        It’s probably a waste of time, but you don’t lose anything by participating.

        I agree with the sentiment, but sometimes you do lose things: vacation days you waste, maybe buying new clothes/shoes/etc for the interview, that kind of thing. Sometimes there is a cost to people wasting your time.

        For a group interview for that kind of position, I’d really wonder how much about me they’d get to talk about and how much is just waiting around while other people are interviewed. And you’re also learning stuff about them: they don’t value your time.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      In my field group interviews are reserved for entry-level positions, so I haven’t had one for a couple years. I’m going to be honest with you – I LOATHE them. There’s always one who attempts to monopolize the interviewer’s attention and team building activities that make you regret the moment you accepted the invitation.

        1. Qwerty*

          The theory behind team activities in group interviews is so the interviewer can see how the candidates behave in a team (does one person hog all the work, does someone slack, does someone lead, etc).

          The reality is its a mess and a bad idea.

      2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This is big in the UK too, for graduate positions. The one process I was involved with for selecting three for our department at a very large corporate – there was an activity where I think they were given a problem or a case in groups of four and had to work together to come up with a response. We sat and “observed” as they did the work as we were looking for logical thinking and teamwork skills. As an introvert I felt bad for the ones who were clearly introverts too and maybe didn’t realise they needed to volunteer to be the person presenting at the end, although some groups did take the tack of everyone presenting something. I know my current org also does something very similar for the grad intake.

        By the way, this was the FIRST activity of a day0long process involving 1-1 behavioral interviews and case presentation role playing. It was exhausting for the interviewers as it was for the grads!

        I’m not British, so I dont know if this is something they do in uni here and the grads are used to it or what, but no one seemed to think it was strange at all. You could, however, clearly see who had the right skills and who didn’t.

    3. Could be Anyone*

      If nothing else, attending the interview might gain you some valuable insight into their hiring process for future reference.

      But also – I assume they saw your resume before inviting you? Is it possible you’re not as unqualified as you think?

  85. Washi*

    When I switched jobs within my organization about a year ago, I trained my replacement for about a week. She seemed really nice, and I thought we connected well.

    But pretty quickly after I made the switch, she seemed super cold. If I smiled in the hallway, she would avoid eye contact. If I said hi, she would make eye contact, but then look away quickly away. I’m wracking my brain, but I can’t think of anything I did or said to offend her while I was training her. We don’t have to work together except for being at a lot of the same events, fortunately.

    Is it worth asking the next time she ignores my greeting “hey, did I do something to offend you?” Or just leave it alone?

    1. Merula*

      For the first few professional jobs I had, I got really annoyed at the people I took over for because a lot of things weren’t done correctly and I had to clean them up. (My industry is heavy on documentation.)

      However, after this happened a few times, I learned (1) they weren’t originally wrong, they just hadn’t updated from a previously-preferred approach year-over-year, and (2) people who are more experienced have more demands on their time than newbies, and the exactly correct documentation is the lowest priority.

      Could it be that as she’s taken over from you, she’s run into things that you did that caused her headaches? If that’s possible and she doesn’t have context for it in your industry/role, that might be contributing.

      1. Washi*

        It’s possible, I guess, but I did a lot of cleaning up myself when I started the role, and my old boss mentioned that she missed me and that my replacement isn’t as good with computers (which I wish she hadn’t told me, it seems kind of unprofessional!)

        If it is that, it also seems like a pretty extreme reaction to have – since I feel confident I didn’t leave a huge mess, anything she could be mad about would have to be fairly minor.

        1. Washi*

          But I guess, if I did offend her, it must be something that is pretty minor from my point of view, since I have no memory of what it could be!

        2. VioletDaffodil*

          Your boss could also be making it clear to her in some way that you were considering the superior employee. When I first started my position, I heard a whole lot about the previous person and how they used to do things, and it felt like I was competing with their idealized version of her. It might not be fair, but it made me a little resentful towards the idea of her –and I never even had to see her. They even called me The New [Sansa] when introducing me, as shorthand for my title.

          This doesn’t mean your replacement should be rude to you; she should realize that if this is going on it is about your boss’ behavior and nothing you did, but if she is very sensitive or doesn’t have good coping strategies, she could be directing her resentment at you.

  86. Seeking Second Childhood*

    We all keep seeing comments about someone who doesn’t wash hands on the way out of the bathroom. I just realized there’s some people who could be getting smeared (so to speak) unfairly. I saw someone at the mall take a bandana out of her pocketbook and dry her hands with it. She shrugged and said “the electric hand dryers are loud enough to hurt.”
    I might do the same–some of those driers put out enough decibels to damage our hearing.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Obviously there are going to be some we see exit the stall & leave without stopping at the sink… but if we’re judging on hearing the drier, it’s now inconclusive.

    3. matcha123*

      I have a ton of handtowels at home. I use them to dry my hands whenever I go out.
      My office doesn’t have an electric hand drier and there are no paper towels. However, even though I use a hand towel, I still need to have the water on to wash my hands. If the water isn’t running, and the sound of water running/hand washing is pretty loud, I would feel safe assuming that someone skipped the washing.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        FWIW I don’t consider that conclusive in all bathrooms either.
        Multiple stalls you probably even hear slow water.
        Bathrooms with doors, well that depends on if someone cranks the water on high or if they’ve got drought training and use a slow trickle to wet and rinse.

    4. Liane*

      Electric hand dryers can’t be used by some people. A good friend has MS, which makes many sufferers extremely heat-sensitive, and she is one of them–which meant her muscles would temporarily weaken enough to notice if she used a hand dryer. Many times I have grabbed TP from a stall while she washed up, because we were in an extra-green restroom that only had dryers.

  87. JustaTech*

    How late is too late to show up to a meeting?
    I’m sure this will vary on the length of the meeting, the size of the meeting, the importance of the meeting, etc, but is there a rule of thumb for when you slither in quietly and when you just go to your desk?

    Like, is there any point in showing up 30 minutes late to an hour long meeting?
    If more than 25% of the meeting has passed, don’t go? Or should you go unless the meeting in like 75% over?

    1. Miss Wels*

      I personally would rather have a colleague be very late to a meeting I facilitate than not come at all, but this will vary by workplace culture.

    2. mr. brightside*

      It depends on your position on the team and your position in the meeting. If you’re the main reason the meeting is happening, and you’re 30 minutes late, expect everyone to be really mad at you. If you’re there as a team member who may or may not contribute, and they don’t mind late arrivals (especially if it’s a phone call not in person), then alert the lead that you’ll be a late and then come in. But if it’s in person, a late arrival might actually be disruptive, so make sure that it’s the kind of meeting where people coming in late.

      Also, if you’re late because you’re coming from a different meeting, that gives you some leeway, but if it happens constantly, you need to make sure the first meeting stays on time, or reschedule the second meeting.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      All of the above, but I’d also add that it depends on what you want out of the meeting too. If you slither in 10 minutes before the meeting ends and you start asking all sorts of questions to catch yourself up…..you’re going to irritate people. Especially if you’re in the meeting primarily to give a one sentence update, you’re not the prime audience of the meeting.

      Not that someone did that this morning, nope…

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh yes, if you’re late you don’t get to stop the meeting to catch up. Maybe quietly ask the person next to you, but that’s it.

  88. Roja*

    So! Update on last week’s job hunt and interview question. For a quick background recap, I’m finishing my MA in a week and a half and husband and I are moving in the summer. We’re tentatively planning on Cleveland (for a lot of reasons) but also theoretically open to another place if I get a good job somewhere. Relevant information is that I teach ballet and modern so the job hunting process is much more informal/personal (at this level) than corporate jobs, very 1-on-1 communication, word of mouth rather than job postings, etc.

    Last Wednesday I found on Indeed what looked like a decent position open (part A, covering classes for the spring, part B, heading up the ballet dept in full come summer) near Syracuse, a little under 2 hours from where we currently live. I figured hey, why not send in my resume? So I did. Heard back less than 5 minutes later, had the phone interview an hour later, and set up an in-person interview for Saturday morning (the position needs to be filled ASAP). Husband and I planned a day out to Syracuse so we could explore the area and see what we thought. Well, the interview went great; I really liked what I heard, and the studio owner offered me the job on the spot. I was positive but noncommittal during the interview and said I would discuss it with husband and let her know. We did our tour of Syracuse and… we both hated it. No offense to anyone who loves it–I know lots do–but it’s not for us and doesn’t meet our criteria of what we’re looking for.

    So I gave myself Sunday and Monday daytime to think it over. Before I could email her that evening, I got an email from her, asking if I could come teach a sample class this week. So I promptly responded about scheduling the sample class, and also telling her that after thorough consideration I would not be able to take the position long-term but I would be happy to fill in for the spring, and that I understood if she only wanted someone who would stay. I also offered to share the job posting to my alma mater/alumni network (a substantial network). It was a solid, professional email (thanks AAM for professional wording examples!).

    Welp, I’ve been ghosted. I’m really surprised, because the process up till then had been very personal, lightning fast responses, and I got a good read from both her and the studio in general. I’m doubly surprised because she’s pretty desperate to find coverage for those classes in January, and having me teach through the spring would buy her a hefty chunk of time to search for someone, not to mention access to another group of people who would learn about the job and potentially be interested. I followed up yesterday (so soon because of the aforementioned sample class scheduling), and zip, zilch, nada.

    So… c’est la vie. I got some good interview practice in, but I don’t like that it ended this way. Honestly, the dance world is very small, very personal, and it’s a very bad idea to ghost or burn bridges unless the situation is truly egregious. It alarms me that this was her response, and perhaps I dodged a bullet.

    Many thanks to those who offered advice last week! Not a very satisfactory update, but I do feel encouraged having had a chance to practice job hunting, and especially knowing that people do want to hire me.

      1. Roja*

        Aw, thanks!! The more I research it online, the more I like it. I’m taking my husband there next month (his first visit, my third) so we can do some initial scouting and networking. I can’t wait!

  89. Job hopping in tech*

    I have a problem that I will acknowledge is a good problem to have….after years of post-recession under employment and getting a PhD (also slave wages, but at least with health insurance), I’m finally employed in very high demand tech field, and getting well compensated for it. Aside from my salary, I run the full gamut of millennial woes – up to my eyeballs in student loans, medical debt from no health insurance in 2008, little retirement savings, sky high rent payments, average home prices nearing $1M so buying a house and having kids look like pipe dreams financially. In my field, there are something like 10 job openings for every 1 person looking right now, so I get recruited DAILY by companies. This has resulted in my having 3 jobs in as many years – because eventually someone comes along with deep pockets and I can’t say no to a 15% pay increase.

    I’m worried about my work history, but it’s hard to turn down opportunities to get out of debt faster and try to actually build a life. How are other people in tech handling this? What do hiring managers think about this? (I have the added frustration that on most of the teams I’ve been on, the majority of my team members come from highly educated families – i.e. their college was paid for, parents helped with a down payment when the housing market was lower, so they don’t really GET what it is to have 6 figure debt and have to come up with a 6-figure down payment while paying out your eyeballs in rent, too)

    1. smart_nickname*

      This is only my personal opinion but a 15% pay increase wouldn’t be enough for me to switch jobs after just a year. Unless I’m otherwise very unhappy and want to leave of course or the job offers me a huge development potential (e.g. managing my own team for the first time).

      I would think a 25-30% increase is the least for me to switch after just one year.

      1. Job hopping in tech*

        FWIW there have been title bumps along the way – think Junior X -> Senior/Lead X -> Senior Y (slightly different, more prestigious job title). Company B also got a new CEO who decided to cut our health insurance halfway through my tenure there, so….they are pretty widely regarded as a-holes who can’t hang on to their employees at this point.

        Still not great, I know …

        1. Qwerty*

          The job title increase helps, but you are reaching the point where you look like a flight risk. If you were interviewing with me, I would assume that you would only be staying for one year, and typically I want someone whom I can count for longer than that.

          With tech, there’s also a long ramp up time to fully understand the system. Although you can start generating code quickly enough, it’ll take longer for you to learn the “why” of the systems, and to train you on the things that happen less often. Usually someone has to be there for longer than a year before they become a real resources to newer or more junior team members. If you haven’t been anywhere longer than a year, I’d be concerned about your ability to produce something that is maintainable long term, simply because you’ve never had to deal with the consequences of a tech decision you made 18months ago.

          I’d also be wondering why you left so many jobs after just a year. Do you get bored easily? Dislike authority? Don’t play well with others? Low performer who leaves before getting fired? Having a pattern of short stints puts you in the company of those who are unable to stay at a job for longer periods.

          I realize this sounds harsh! But it is the conversations and thoughts that go on behind the scenes and a good interview would probably never say any of it to your face, they would just silently pass. If you can stay at your current job for a while it’ll go a long way.

          1. emmelemm*

            Honestly, that’s an interesting point about longevity. I’ve been in the same job on the same piece of software for (an embarrassingly) long time, and I’ve definitely had to deal with the consequences of decisions *I* made months, nay, years ago!!

          2. smart_nickname*

            I wouldn’t be so harsh since the OP had title bumps between positions. If he switched from one junior (or senior) dev position to the next one this would be a red flag, but it’s normal that people use occasions if they are presented to them.

            For me such changes aren’t “job hopping”. They are “quick career progression”.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’d say it depends on 1) What do you mean by “In Tech”? and 2) Where are you located?

      If you’re in a software development/design/database/qa role, and/or you’re working for a company in the tech sector (think Google, Microsoft, Oracle, etc.) as opposed to a tech job in another sector (think retail, finance) you’re probably fine. Especially since you mention that you are being recruited. These are areas where moving every 18 months is a lot more common, especially since the technologies that those jobs are built on often changes so rapidly.

      If you can stretch your time at a company to closer to 18 months rather than 12 it might look a bit better, but it sounds like you’re in enough demand (see, THEY recruited YOU) and in the right sector that it’s not an outright red flag.

      1. Job hopping in tech*

        I’m currently working in machine learning and artificial intelligence research / software, at actual tech companies (one big ones, and some well-funded startups). I’m in one of the top 10 tech hubs in the country (hence my sky high COL), but not the Bay Area.

        FWIW I don’t WANT to leave the current role (good management, which feels rare in this field), but it’s PAINFUL to turn down interviews where you basically get to name your price.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          In that case, I’d add a new criteria for changing jobs. Are you going to learn something at the new job that you can’t learn at the old job? ML/AI is hot, but don’t jump for a company that will pay you more to keep doing the same thing. Jump for a company that will pay you more to learn something new.

        2. Imtheone*

          You could also look at less expensive parts of the country where COL is much lower. Then rent will be lower and opportunities to buy a house will be greater. Tech hubs are great, and there are lots of places to work there, but there are significant downsides. There are some minor tech hubs (RTP in NC comes to mind) where housing prices are quite a bit lower, but salaries are still high.

  90. JHunz*

    Hey, I just want to thank Alison for her recent holiday party advice post, especially the part about not just talking with the people you always talk to. I walked past the table where my whole usual team was sitting and sat down at a table that hadn’t filled up yet. I ended up sitting with one of the founders, a couple guys who go back as far as I do with the company but I never interact with for my day job, and two interns who started this year. Had a great conversation all night.

    I also may have heckled the CEO’s speech slightly, so maybe put in a future advice post not to do that ;)

  91. Emily S.*

    Very happy today! Today was our payday AND bonus day and I’m so pleased. Woohoo!
    (It isn’t much, but it’s extra and awesome!)

    I hope everyone has a great weekend!

  93. Daphne*

    How to approach talking about an end date to a fixed term role with my manager? I’m in the UK if that skews anything. Basically I have two jobs, and the fixed term job is a maternity cover role that had a 4 month rolling contract until my predecessor decided if she was coming back. The last ‘end date’ was in October but my boss asked if I could do into December. Lately she’s been trying to feel out how I’m finding the role and to be honest I’m not enjoying it and it encroaches into my free time/other job. Which is a shame, because I really thought that this was an industry I wanted to move into. Do I just work until I want to put in my notice or should my boss be bringing up an extension?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I’ve been there – the rolling maternity cover end date is a pain in the ass. I found it was better to just take the bull by the horns and initiate the conversation when I wasn’t feeling comfortable (although my boss was quite good about keeping me updated). I would suggest doing the same here. Do you know when you want to put in your notice? Or can you come up with an arbitrary date? Its as much about being professional so your boss can start the recruitment process as you would expect her to be if it was reversed. You don’t necessarily need to bring up that you arent enjoying it, it could be as simple as saying while you have enjoyed your time there, you have decided to focus on other obligations.

      1. Daphne*

        Thanks Sprechen, yes I’m thinking along those lines. The company expects 4 weeks notice so I would look to hand it in end of Jan so I’ll have spent a year in the role. A big factor is that I want to relocate as soon as possible and can easily do that with my other job, so that will probably be my explanation if I’m pressed for one!

  94. LL*

    I am an American and the granddaughter of immigrants. In my family’s country of origin my great-grandfather owned some land (over 50 acres) which has been in the family for generations. It was passed down to his only child, which was then passed on to my father and his siblings. However my father and siblings want to transfer ownership to my generation. It turns out it is worth a whole lot and if we sell we’ll be the beneficiaries of a windfall. But my team is pretty close and shares a lot of personal info. I haven’t shared as much but maybe more than I’ve wanted to in the past. I’ll most likely have to travel more (to our country of origin) as we move through this process and I’m wondering what is a good script to explain that. Also what is a good script for resigning since I’m not looking for work elsewhere and we all have joked about financial situations before. And as a minority woman they have really encouraged me to grow professionally so I’m not sure how to explain why I’m all of a sudden not going to work. Any advice on scripts would be helpful.

    1. Four lights*

      Keep in mind that no matter how much everyone in your office shares, it’s your decision what you want to.

      For the travel: “I’m travelling to my families country of origin to deal with some family business/ family legal issues/ family inheritance issues.”

      For work: You don’t have to tell them the rest of your life plan. You don’t have to say anything other than you’re leaving. But you can say, “Due to a recent inheritance I’m able to take some time away from working. Thank you for all of your professional support and encouragement throughout the years.”

      When people ask you follow up questions, you don’t have to answer. You can say things like, “I’d rather not get into it.” “Oh, it’s not very interesting.” “Actually, I need to get back to work now.”

    2. matcha123*

      I think you can just say that you will be leaving to take care of some family matters and it may be some time before you can think about work?

        1. valentine*

          You’re visiting family and you’re ready for the next chapter of your life, whatever that may be. Details will only invite follow-up questions.

  95. Future Web Dev*

    What do I do when I’m not a good fit for entry level positions in my field? I’m getting my Master’s in IT. I want to be a web developer. I’m also job hunting. My career counselor wants me to get a help desk/tech support job so it’ll be easier to transition to a programming job later.

    The problem is, from the job descriptions, I wouldn’t be good at those jobs. They want someone outgoing, good with customer service, fast paced, quick thinker, and good under pressure.

    In every job I’ve had, my co-workers and bosses have complained about me being slow. I’ve been praised on my customer service skills, but I’m a shy and quiet person and customer service gives me anxiety. I don’t work well under pressure, I end up panicking and making mistakes. I’m not a quick thinker, I prefer to have a lot of time to think through problems and make a decision.

    To top it off, I have no interest in these kinds of positions. I did tell my advisor this last part, and she said it’ll be difficult for me to get a programming job if I’m not already in the industry.

    I want my next job to be a role I’ll be successful in. But maybe it’s better to fake it until I make it?

    1. smart_nickname*

      Ignore the advisor. After graduating I talked to several and discovered how incredibly difficult it was to find a person who’s actually knowledgeable.

      IT specialists are searched in all countries I know. It’s currently one of the best majors to have a degree in. If you can’t find a job work on your skills and portfolio.

      Having said that… Not being able to work under stress is something you will need to work on. If you don’t, this will disqualify you for many jobs.

    2. Another worker bee*

      Context: also a programmer, also got my first job < 10 years ago: if you don't want the tech support job (understandable), make sure you do some side projects, open source the code on github (make you are following coding best practices!), host the sites you have developed so that you can point employers at examples of your work. You might be able to pick up a freelance job or two (often with no experience, you'll have to undercut market rate) and get paid for this sort of thing, too.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, a help desk / tech support job isn’t a great way to become a web developer. Can you just get a kind of boring desk job that isn’t directly related to technology but is at a technology company, and then use your spare time to work on web development, maybe contribute to some GitHub projects and answer some Stack Overflow questions to build up your cred?

    4. babblemouth*

      We can’t seem to find enough programmers in my company, we’re pretty much constantly hiring. Ignore the counselor, you have picked one if the rare few fields left where you can walk out of university straight into a job.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I wouldn’t consider help desk to be the entry level position for someone who wants to be a web developer. I’d consider Jr. Web Developer to be the entry level position. Not to say that you can’t start on the help desk and end up a developer (I’ve got a couple of coworkers who did that route, usually with spots in other positions along the way), but that it’s not the guarantee your career counselor seems to think it is.

      I’d say work on personal projects and put them on GitHub. Focus on stuff that will show your strengths in javascript (multiple frameworks if you can manage it), HTML5 and CSS3. Also, look for internships, co-op jobs, and freelance jobs. Don’t turn down a programming job just because it’s for desktop or mobile app development – a lot of the skills will transfer. Consider joining an open source project or a hackathon (especially one that supports non-profit organizations).

      Oh, and as far as the “not already in the industry?” bit – utter nonsense. One of the last two developers we hired was in the printing industry, and the other was a music teacher.

      1. Kendra*

        +1. Did web development as an intern and am starting as a full-time software engineer in a month. If you have a master’s in IT and you can prove basic programming skills, you can absolutely start as a developer without jumping through any other hoops.

    6. Qwerty*

      Seconding the advice to apply for Junior Developer positions. However, if you feel you need a transition role, look into DevOps. It is basically a hybrid position of IT and programming that also tends to be high demand. If you find one for a company that does web development, then a position like this will have you setting up the backend of the website and will make you really familiar with the network, servers, and deployment processes. Some of the DevOps people I’ve known have created local websites for the IT department as a way of working on their web dev skills (ie, create a website to show you the status of the all the servers). Depending on the company, you might be able to transition into a developer role there, or you’d leave after a year or two to transition into a fully developer role.

    7. Future Web Dev*

      Thanks for the suggestions, everyone! I just started the program and the web dev stuff isn’t until the end, so I can’t get any junior developer jobs yet. But I’ll keep an eye out for those when the time comes. I like the idea of getting a boring desk job at a tech company, I’ve wanted a boring desk job for a while now.

  96. smart_nickname*

    I was in a toxic workplace for over a year. I’ve now quit and will be starting a new position soon.

    I remember there was a thread about how toxic workplaces change you on here some time ago and I will search for it. I think I’m an example of that. Even when I quit – and I quit without giving any reasons or acting disrespectfully – my boss went on a rant about how awful I was… I’m losing hope that I will be able to make a clear cut without suing the company since in my country every leaving employee receives a work certificate with a grade, which in my case will almost definitely be bad – although I did nothing to justify it. I feel abused.

    The level of stress I’ve been experiencing is simply crazy.

  97. Lena Clare*

    Thanks to the advice on this blog I have recently got two interviews! The first one I turned down because, upon consideration, I don’t think it’s a place I would like to work; that decision in itself is down to the advice on here.

    The other one is a job I would **really, really** like. The interview is Monday 17th of December.

    Now all I have to do is buy a suit – which is a seemingly impossible task, this time of year!

    But I’m stoked I got 2 interviews in one month. Thanks Alison.

  98. BeanCat*

    Am I overthinking punctuation in email? I try to mirror what other people do (stick to periods if they do, add a friendly exclamation point to end if they do, but sometimes I feel that people I correspond with regularly will notice if I sign off with “please let me know if you need anything else!” versus “please let me know if you need anything else.”

    (I think I’m overthinking but I sometimes just don’t feel “!”. Is there a punctuation mark between a period and an exclamation point?)

    1. Annderson not Andi*

      I tend to go overboard with the exclamation points because it’s really important for me to come across as friendly and enthusiastic. I often have to take a couple out before I hit send. But especially in the example you gave, I don’t think people care about is as much as I do.

      1. BeanCat*

        Oh my God, my email drafts are sometimes littered with “!” because I want to be friendly! And I can’t personally read tone! So I over compensate!

        I’m glad it’s not just me – thanks for the perspective check!

    2. Rey*

      I think some people view this as a difference between men and women, or a generational thing. I tend to only use exclamation points in email to people that I interact with on a personal level, and periods when I’m sending emails to people that are higher than me and outside of my direct reporting line. I don’t know if this really matters, or if I am also overthinking it all

      1. BeanCat*

        That makes sense and seems a reasonable divide! I think that’s instinctively where I fall.

        Tone is so hard sometimes…

        Thanks for chiming in!

  99. Ali G*

    Anyone know how to link your work (Outlook) calendar to your phone?
    I have an iPhone 6(?) that is from my last job. When I left I deleted the calendar and email apps because for some reason IT never wiped my phone.
    At my new job, they don’t pay for my phone, so I don’t want to get email on it, but I would like to have my work calendar on my phone so that I can net notifications of appointments, check my schedule for the next day, etc. without having to fire up the laptop and log into my work email when I am not working.
    We have 2 IT people on site here that could probably help, but one is on bereavement leave and the other is off-site for the rest of the year due to having surgery.
    If I can’t figure it out myself, I guess I’ll have to wait until the New Year when everyone is back to their normal schedules.
    Thanks for any tips!

    1. wingmaster*

      If you have a Google account, you can export your Outlook calendar and import it to Google. You would just have to specify what dates you’d like to export/import.

      Not sure if there are easier ways to do this, but this is how I do it.

    2. Asenath*

      Try an app – I have an android phone, and a google email address, so the app I use might not work with with an iphone, but there’s probably something out there that does.

    4. Rey*

      My organization’s IT always instructs iPhone users to add new accounts in settings under passwords and accounts. Once you have added the account via Exchange, you can choose what all you want to carry in. The five options are mail, contacts, calendars, reminders, and notes, so if you’re only interested in the calendars, turn off the other four options. And in the iPhone calendar app, across the bottom select Calendars and it will show where it is in pulling in information, so you can isolate just your Exchange calendar, adjust the color coding, etc.

  100. NotAMadScientist*

    Hello!

    I’m training a new hire. I’m not her supervisor, my boss it. But I have seniority among current lab employees (grad students). New hire, let’s name her Jill, is fresh out of undergrad and hired on as a full time employee for 9 months. (She’s headed to grad school in the fall). This is very clearly a first time professional. I don’t have any experience in training people that level of fresh, I could use some advice on several things.

    Things like her getting annoyed when I remind her to have goggles on. Wearing transparent tops. Using work inappropriate language. Calling me when she’s late instead of our boss (I’ve corrected in the moment twice on this one, my boss is telling me to tell her and I’m like I already am?). Working your full hours (leaving/arriving as well as being on the job at work). Being extra chatty with whoever is training her instead of focusing (which is probably nerves, but I need a polite way to shut down the off topic and refocus so we can continue, also had another student ask me how to handle that issue). I’m not her mentor. And I don’t really have time to, I’m just training her her first two weeks on our protocols, as is another person. So it’s a weird dynamic. I’m also worried about seeming condescending. Academia, we don’t have any HR I can go ask for advice, nor any formal training procedures where we might have covered this. Any tips?

    1. Four lights*

      She needs a crash course in how to be a good worker. I learned all of this at McDonald’s. You could bring some of this up with your boss and ask if s/he would like to handle it or needs you to. Is there any employee manual? It might be helpful to make one. If you have to meet with her, you could just go over basic expectations. We expect everyone to arrive on time and work their full shift, if you are late this is the protocol, we expect you to focus on work and not chat or be on the phone. We expect you to be polite and courteous to everyone. This is the dress code.

      The goggle bother me–isn’t that a safety issue?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        What if you had a one-page Employee Guidelines written by your boss (or at least signed off by)? It’s the sort of thing you and others can have go over when training new lab workers. All new workers should have a copy too.

        Lab hours are X to Y. You are expected to be on time or early and not to leave before Y time. If you are running late, you are expected to call/text Boss at (number).

        Safety is important! Your attention needs to be on the work so personal conversations should be limited and phones should only be accessed during break times.

        Dress codes can be tricky unless there are clear safety guidelines, but if you have to wear goggles, you likely have this situation. So, clothing needs to be opaque and provide full coverage, closed-toed shoes, hair tied back, goggles on. (Or whatever applies and however you want to phrase it)

    2. Kristinemk*

      In terms of her calling you when she is late instead of your boss, can you redirect her in the moment and actually have her hang up and call your boss instead? Maybe actually going through the motions will help?

    3. LALAs*

      It is not condescending to tell someone what they are doing wrong. You can be nice about it, “You may not realize this, but sometimes your language is too casual for this environment.” In terms of the chit chat, just shut it down, “Interesting, but I only have X amount of time to go over this with you so we need to focus.”

  101. Portmanteau*

    We had a region-wide staff meeting this week, completed with socializing (and drinking) after hours. Two colleagues (both married with kids, not to each other) were kissing in front of everyone, even the Big Boss as well as other bosses. I saw so many shocked looks. They’re pretty senior themselves, so it made it very awkward for the people they supervise. /o\

  102. Annderson not Andi*

    They ordered new nametags for my office and someone just handed me mine – it has my nickname on it (think Andi Smith instead of Anderson Smith). Everyone calls me Andi, which is fine, but I never introduce myself that way and it feels unprofessional to see it written down, especially with my last name included. I feel weird advocating for myself about something that feels so petty but I did ask HR to order a new one. (It’s their mistake after all, nobody asked me what I wanted it to say).

    Separate issue – the new nametags have only our names & the company, not our titles. What is everyone’s feeling abut that? I’m not really sure the point of the nametag without the title, to be honest. I work with LOTS of people outside our organization and it’s probably not very useful for them to know my name but not what I actually do. But maybe the nickname thing is coloring my judgment.

    1. Merula*

      All of my company’s nametags have just the person’s name and the logo, no titles. It’s assumed that people will use them for the entirety of their career here, so I think it’s more a cost savings than anything.

      Actually, it’s remarkably difficult to find anything official with job titles around here. Some people don’t even put them in their email signature.

    3. CM*

      I’m having a hard time picturing a situation where you would be meeting with people from outside the organization AND wearing your name tag AND they wouldn’t already know roughly what your position is. In most of the situations I’m thinking of, it would be more appropriate to give someone a business card or verbally introduce yourself than to rely on a name tag.

  103. NewJobWhoDis?*

    I just wanted to thank Alison and everyone that contributes to AAM. After almost ten years at my current company, I am finally moving on to greener pastures. I am very excited for this new step and the opportunity to move from a company heading down a rabbit hole of dysfunction to one that is known for taking care of their employees.

    While some bitter co-workers have truly stepped up the offensive behavior plate, I am on the final count down.
    Thank you all.

  104. Kramerica Industries*

    I’m in a project management team and we’ve been informed that there will be a mandatory boot camp next month for 4 days on marketing and promotion. The idea is to help make launches more successful by ramping up hype. Inherently, this is totally understandable and not a bad thing.

    I’ve been in my current role for 2 years and I’ve discovered that get really anxious/nauseous whenever marketing/promotion is brought up. At my old role, my boss would berate us for not hitting targets and forced us into some sketchy and unethical tactics (e.g. advertising on the dark web). I think this left me with some bad anxiety that makes me really anxious whenever we talk about marketing now.

    Usually, it’s only at a short meeting so I deal with my emotions for an hour. But I don’t know how I’m going to survive 4 full days of this. I don’t want to consistently feel anxious/sick for days! I wish this was something I tackled in therapy earlier, but I don’t think that’s an option now since the boot camp is only a month away. I’ve tried relaxation techniques during meetings (learned from other therapy sessions), but I don’t know if it’s going to keep my anxiety at bay for full days. Is there anything I can say to my manager to get out of this?

    2. Barb*

      If your anxiety gets bad enough, you may have to call in sick (I wouldn’t say the reason). But preemptively, you can’t tell your boss you don’t want to do something that’s part of your job because it reminds you of an unusually bad experience in your past. To your boss, that just sounds like you’re randomly unwilling to do the work required. Maybe there are some online therapeutic resources to help you through these days? Sorry!

  105. foolofgrace*

    Writing Thank-You Notes — how do you get the interviewers’ email addresses? They rarely offer me their card; am I supposed to ask them for their address? What if they ask why I need it — to say “Oh I want to thank you for today”? That seems silly to me.

    1. Four lights*

      Sometimes I find it on the web site. You could ask for their card. You could ask for their card from the secretary when you arrive.

    2. Catleesi*

      If you can’t find it, you could also send the email to whoever was your contact (like HR) and ask them to pass along the message. I’ve received those when I’ve been hiring and found it perfectly acceptable – especially since our email addresses weren’t published.

    3. Meteor*

      Sometimes you can deduce their email address, if you have the email of someone else (like HR rep) at the company. Most employers follow the formula firstname.lastname@company.com, or something similar. Or, as the other commenters said, you can specifically ask the HR rep.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I wouldnt recommend this. The bigger the company the more likely your email will go to the wrong Chris Smith. And anyone with a name change may have a mismatched email address.

        Easiest for me was to print up my own personal contact info on a card and offer it to the interviewer, which almost always got me one in trade.

    4. mr. brightside*

      Were you communicating by e-mail with anyone, such as a scheduler? In which case, I’d e-mail that person:

      “hi! I hope you can pass along to X how much I…”

    6. Undine*

      Ask them, “Can you give me your email in case I have any more questions/think of anything else?”

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can ask for a card, it’s not strange and most people are happy to do so. Many people collect them if they’re on unemployment as a paper trail.

  106. Totally Anonymous*

    So I guess this sort of a vent and sort of a request for advice, if anyone has been through a similar situation.

    Apparently something happened to one of my co-workers (or they caused something to happen?) that means they’re the subject of a police investigation. I didn’t much notice their absence at first, since I thought they were sick, but now their office door is sealed with Evidence tape, their tasks have been delegated to other people, and their presence has been scrubbed from the company website. There were also security people from our company hanging around the other day, although sometimes they come over to chat casually with people in our building so I didn’t pay attention to it at the time.

    I don’t really expect an announcement, since I’m sure there are issues of confidentiality at play, but this co-worker was a friend and I have to confess I’m worried (and at this point I have no idea if I should also be worried about other people; their presence being scrubbed from the website highly suggests to me they’re being investigated as a perpetrator, not a victim). A few other co-workers are also highly worried. Does anyone have suggestions for ways to cope with the worry + necessary lack of information? Or anything we could do that would be productive?

    1. Undine*

      I don’t really know what goes on in these situations. I do think it’s reasonable, if you have a decent relationship with your boss, to go to your boss and say, “I realize there are issues of confidentiality, but the rumor mill is really out of control on Grendel’s departure. Is there any reason to be worried about physical safety?” That should tip your boss off to what the gossip is like, and if they are reasonable and pro-active, they might mention it to higher ups, who could then realize that it is time to get a statement together so people don’t freak out completely. With the right boss, it’s even possible to present this as “Hey, you probably want to know what a morale problem this is,” as if you are her ally.

      (For what it’s worth, my mind went to financial fraud or other white-collar crime, particularly if there are files in that office.)

      1. Totally Anonymous*

        That’s a good idea, thank you! In this case, I don’t have much of a relationship with the grandboss, but my immediate supervisor is a different matter, and he has the grandboss’s ear. I might wait a bit, because at this point there has been no announcement at all, even of the “Grendel has had to leave for personal reasons” type. Only the “Evidence” tape on the office door is actually visible; I heard about the tasks being delegated from one of the people affected by it and didn’t realize Grendel’s webpage was missing until I went looking.

        On the other hand, that “Evidence” tape does suggest they’re not treating it as some huge secret…

    2. Gumby*

      I assume you have already tried Google, local newspapers, court records, police blotters? Because if TPTB are scrubbing said person’s presence from your web site they have reason to believe someone would be searching for information on the person.

      1. Totally Anonymous*

        I’ve tried, but can’t find anything. Part of the problem is that this person works in our state but lives in another one, so I may not be looking in the right places.

        To me, the webpage was mostly significant because it suggested they aren’t coming back, but yeah, I can see that perspective, too.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t know that the tape is the company’s call. Assume a police investigation is ongoing, one you don’t want to interfere with or be a part of. Stop investigating/discussing. Don’t contact Grendel. (I’m guessing you were at-work friends, or you’d have already been in touch.) Let it play out without you.

  107. Anon Advisor*

    So this is a question that’s been addressed before, but I don’t think for higher ed and I want to make sure not to burn any bridges and make the most of what I can.

    In general, what do you consider the minimum amount of time I could spend in a position and still be able to use that experience to be competitive for other positions/not burn bridges/etc. Context: I have 10 years of employment experience, not exactly relevant to higher ed but relating to both management and public policy/services. I just received my Master’s in the field in August. I work in a kind of specialized part of higher ed as an advisor.

    I like my job, and I love my coworkers, but the money isn’t great and I relocated to be here and it’s not where I want to be long term.

    1. fposte*

      Even in higher ed, there isn’t a carved-in-stone answer. It depends on what you can show you’ve learned in the position, why you’re leaving, how you’re leaving, etc. What is it that you want to do? How long have you been doing advising there–is it just since August/September?

      1. Anon Advisor*

        I’m an advisor in international education – I’ve been doing it since August. I would definitely give as much notice as possible, and I’d be leaving only if I found a position in a place I would like to love more or had more competitive pay.

        My initial thought was to wait 2 years. I’m just not sure I want to be here that long though – and I’m a planner so it’s hard for me not to have a general timeframe in mind of when I would want to start looking. I’m committing myself to a year, but it’s like – is a year and a few months ok, does it need to be a full 2, etc.

        I completely understand it’s all subjective and can depend greatly on the institution but if it’s really like – no it’s generally understood you need to stay longer, I want to know now rather than later.

        2. fposte*

          I think 2 years has its advantages from a psychological perspective, but it’s not magically better than 1 year and 9 months, and getting you in place in a new position for the fall semester start of 2020 would probably matter more than the difference between 1.75 and 2.

          But you can look now–look at ads, look when you’re at conferences. This is time you can spend sharpening your picture of what “worth it to move” would look like and what it would take to get there.

  108. Need to be anon, but have posted many times before*

    Ok, this is literally happening as I type this…

    I’m working in a coffee shop, and at the next table a guy is meeting with a civil rights advocate and discussing taking legal action against a organization for firing him for cause. The advocate is recommending he hire an attorney and sue the organization, and is already documenting the materials for legal evidence. I figured this was just a thing that happens, and tuned as much of it as I could out and kept working. Here’s where it gets tricky… he mentioned who they are suing, and my wife’s work represents the organization that they are planning to sue.

    Legally, ethically… do I tell her what I overheard? Need some help…

    1. Four lights*

      Oooh, I don’t know. The moral is don’t have conversations like that in a public place.

      I would say they have no expectation of privacy in a public place, so whatever you decide to do, that mistake was on them.

    2. Merula*

      Tell her. There is no attorney-client privilege unless the attorney and client act to keep their communications privileged. Talking about current litigation in a COFFEE SHOP??? That’s insane and makes me question the judgment of both.

      What if it wasn’t you at that particular coffee shop on that particular day? What if it was the HR rep for the organization? What if it was their GC?

      1. Anon From Here*

        There’s no attorney-client privilege here because the overheard conversation did not have a lawyer participating in it.

        If the OP is a lawyer, then there are some professional ethical rules implicated, however.

    3. jnsunique*

      I don’t think that there’s anything unethical or illegal about telling your spouse what you overheard, but I also don’t think that it will matter much in the long run. I’m not sure that the organization could do much right now with the information, until a lawsuit is filed. I’m assuming that the organization is reputable and isn’t the type to use the extra time to falsify documentation.

    4. Temperance*

      You should tell your wife. This could be very important information for her re: litigation prep.

    5. Rey*

      You owe nothing to a stranger in a coffee shop. The fact that you’re asking internet people if you should tell your wife probably means that you will feel better once you tell your wife. Just shoot off a message right now, “OMG the people in this coffee shop are talking about filing a case against X. Don’t you represent them?”

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s an advocate. Not an attorney. This is why you don’t chat about legal stuff at the coffee shop. Tell your wife. She can do with the info what she thinks is fit. Her job is to protect her clients!

    7. LilySparrow*

      Why wouldn’t you tell her?

      Do you have some personal ethical objection to her job? Do you think her client was actually the bad guy here, and you want to avoid helping them in any way? Do you think they will do something unethical with the information, like destroy or falsify evidence? Do you think your wife would participate in something unethical?

      I’m just not sure why it seems tricky to you. Obviously nothing this guy said is a secret, and neither he nor the advocate care who overhears them. So why would it be unethical for you to repeat it?

  109. Donna Noble*

    Ha! I was typing a little story about my personal work life thing and then someone tripped a circuit in our ancient little office and we lost power momentarily AND our phones and internet connection. We don’t have an in-house IT guy so my very not tech savvy supervisor is on the phone trying to figure out how to get everything reset to the background soundtrack of the battery backup’s incessant beeping. Fun.

  110. Not Maeby But Surely*

    I changed positions about 2 years ago, going from a management position (where I was getting little mentoring or feedback, but where I also seemed to be doing pretty well on my own) to a non-management position in a different department at the same company. I’d been here over 15 years at the time I accepted my current position. Incidentally, I get even less feedback in the new role, and it’s become clear that this team is not a good culture fit for me for several reasons, and there have been many times when I feel actively excluded from various things they take part in. As examples, if underwriter reps come to visit, I have to overhear about it and ask to go, whereas other people at my level are invited in advance. Or if I ask to go along to deliver holiday goodies to a particular client (so I can make that in-person connection and build a rapport with people I’m supposed to be providing our service to), they say okay but then arrange to do it without me. I happened across Alison’s “10 signs your boss just isn’t that into you” post recently and was sad to have to admit that I “scored” 10/10 on that list. I have decided over the last several months that I have to move on to move up. My reputation seems to be tarnished by the move, as if people think I was demoted, when it’s actually more the opposite: the bosses asked me to do this because I was the only one in the office with the expertise needed to succeed in the role. But after the move, people who once came to me with questions stopped doing so, and basically I started feeling invisible. For that reason, I don’t think it would be wise to ask to move back to the old department. (Plus, I don’t think they need a manager there now anyway.) My question boils down to this – do I bother trying to have a conversation with any of the boss-level people about any of this or, since I have little hope of anything changing, do I just find a job and give them notice, and let it come as quite a shock given my longevity? I am torn by a sense of loyalty I’ve developed over the years and it just feels so wrong to quit with a 2-week notice or something, but at the same time, the complete drop in interest on their part in my professional development seems to indicate I should stop caring so much about how they feel.
    Sorry this was so long. Any words of wisdom for me?

    1. Merula*

      Any chance you’re at an insurance agency? In my experience, those seem to tend towards dysfunction.

      Regardless, if you weren’t getting good management in one department, and then moved to another and had a similar experience, I think that tells you everything you need to know about your current employer. Look elsewhere.

      1. Not Maeby But Surely*

        Thanks, that’s what I figured but it’s nice to hear it from someone else. Yes, it’s an insurance agency of sorts, just not life/auto/health. Now that you mention it, I remember my husband seeing some whack stuff when he temped at an auto insurance agency. I’d never heard/thought about the industry itself leaning toward dysfunction, but I could totally see it.

        1. Merula*

          I work for a P&C carrier. I’ve had several jobs working closely with agencies, and some were better than others but all had some amount of weirdness going on.

          Have you considered looking at roles at carriers or clients? In my experience, folks with agency experience make great underwriters because they’ve seen the other side, and (at least in the P&C world) large clients like to recruit agency folks into risk management roles to get a leg up in negotiations.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Which got me thinking (always dangerous this early in the morning.)

            Another variant career path might be business development or project management at an insurance software company.

    2. Not Maeby But Surely*

      For additional context, we are an office of about 35 people – part of a larger corporate structure, and our hierarchy is CEO > Managers (have title of Director) > Everyone Else. CEO was involved in the decision to offer me the management position when I was promoted to that, and in the decision to ask that I move to the other department. I have a good rapport with her but she is also very busy, so I want to be considerate of her time.

  111. quietreader*

    Found out this morning that there is no way to extend my contract as my boss has done in the past, past early March. In the meantime, I’ve finally finished and submitted my grad school applications for next fall, though I likely won’t hear until late February or early March. I know I need to start job searching but where do I start? Any suggestions on how you job searched knowing that you might have to decline any offers or pep talks (seeing as I’m nervous about both job searching and grad school now) would be appreciated!

  112. Merula*

    Are there any circumstance were it’s OK to give my boss a gift?

    Background: My boss is great. She’s a very direct woman in a male-dominated industry and gets the standard “you need to be nicer” feedback. We’ve commiserated on that point, as I have gotten that too. We have a fairly casual relationship.

    I found a humor book “How To Be Successful Without Hurting Men’s Feelings” by Sarah Cooper, and on reading it my first thought was “[Boss] would LOVE this.” The book is pretty cheap ($12), and we’re well compensated. I haven’t gotten her anything for any other holiday or occasion. If she were anyone other than my direct manager, I wouldn’t hesitate.

    So what do you think, commentariat?

    1. jnsunique*

      I think its a “know your audience” thing! I’m a supervisor in a male-dominated industry (manufacturing/engineering, though both my boss and direct report are women). Personally, if I got a wrapped gift from my employee I’d feel a little weird about it, but if she dropped in one day with it, unwrapped, and just told me she saw it and thought I’d appreciate it that would be cool. I don’t do anything for my employees for the holidays, not even cookies, though I think about it sometimes. Not often enough to actually do something.

    2. Not Maeby But Surely*

      Based on the situation you describe, I would give her the book. And that’s coming from someone who feels strongly that an employee shouldn’t gift up. There are exceptions to every rule, and I think this is one of them.

    3. Merula*

      Thank you both! I hadn’t considered the wrapped-versus-unwrapped distinction. I’ll just drop it by casually.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      As a manager, I think it’s fine given the specifics, but feel like you would be just as good if you just sent her a link to the story here with excerpts (or one somewhere else), because the main point is “I thought of you!” not “I spent money on you,” right?

    5. KX*

      It could be fun! But maybe don’t give it to her now, and not in holiday wrapping paper. Is January too late? Then it’s just a moment, and not a Gift To The Boss.

      Gift giving in December just seems fraught with obligations and expectations.

    6. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      My boss keeps stealing my pen. It’s like, not a super special fancy pen either, it’s a Pilot G-2 gel pen. I’m planning to buy her one the next time I swing by Staples, tie a ribbon around it, and leave it on her desk. It’s almost more a gag than a real gift the way I see it!

      1. Kat in VA*

        I’m doing something similar (gag gift) as my VP keeps cracking his knuckles, clicking his pen, biting his fingernails, and being particularly fidgety during meetings.

        I’m getting him a fidget cube to keep him busy. (We have that kind of relationship.)

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is under “novelty” gift. Just like if you got her a Starbucks once in awhile or grabbed a unicorn tape dispenser for her if she’s obsessed with unicorns.

      Gifts that are a “thinking of you” and “we’re close like that” are fine. It’s when you all chip in for a ski trip for the CEO you don’t even know. Or buying an owner a fancy personal thing when they don’t even give you a living wage.

  113. AnonyMouse*

    Hello! So I have a question and some general work venting today. We’ll start with the question. Last Friday I interviewed for a position that I’m really hopeful for at another university. When I asked the “next steps” question, they told me that I’d likely know something by the 20th. I have a feeling that was a generous timeline (they were still interviewing this week), but after thinking about it more if that’s really when they’re planning on notifying that worries me. For one, they haven’t asked for my references yet and that would be really close to the holidays to be trying to make reference calls. Also if I did receive the offer on the 20th, it would make giving two weeks notice really awkward. They said their ideal start time frame was Jan. 2nd-9th. Even if I gave notice on the 20th, the majority of my notice period I will either be on vacation or our university will be closed (as well as theirs). Would it be unreasonable to email the search chair and ask for an update in a week if I haven’t heard anything (it will have been at least two weeks since my interview)? I’d keep it really short and would not mention any of the timing issues I mentioned here.

    Now for my venting… I work at a university and I’m in a student facing role, so I am am involved with my College’s commencement. I feel like this should be a happy time for everyone involved, but I am so stressed out and dreading it. My boss has pretty much sucked the fun out of the event for us. He’s micromanaging it like crazy, and wants us to have a written plan of where we are going to be and what we will be doing for the whole event (he wants it in 15 minute increments too) sent to him by early next week. We’ve already discussed our assignments in numerous planning meetings. Everyone’s aware of what they will be doing. I feel like it’s because he’s feeling the stress of wanting everything to go perfectly, but with that said at some point with event planning you need to just let it go and accept that things will go the way they’re going to go. Again, I don’t know if anyone’s advice will help (he’s adamant that we do this) but I also just need reassurance that I’m not crazy in thinking this is over the top.

  114. KayEss*

    Just a quick little gripe: I really wish job board/search sites like LinkedIn would ban the sketchy recruiters who bulk post the same listing with the same title/description for every single suburb in a major metro area in order to artificially inflate their candidate pool. Getting an email that there are suddenly FOUR HUNDRED new jobs matching my search criteria is a huge pain, because I know that maybe TWO of them are real.

  115. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Update from a few months ago, the older guy who kept calling me “Kiddo.” We went several months without the nickname, when it came up on the phone once. I pick up and say my full name, and he said “Do you have a minute, kiddo?”

    I responded, “Sure do, gramps. What’s up?” He laughed uncomfortably and made a joke about not being a grandfather and I laughed and made a joke about not being a child. A few weeks later he was in my office talking about something else and he brought up him calling me kiddo and apologized for it. I thanked him for the apology and forgave him, and so far have not had it come up again.

    Snark for the win!

  116. jnsunique*

    I work as an Engineering Supervisor in manufacturing, and recently hired someone for a new position to help us manage change by documenting the testing required, getting the testing done, and compiling and sharing all the results. There are other duties as well, but I was really clear that I needed someone with good organizational skills and that this would be a detail-oriented but challenging job. The person I hired interviewed well. In the 4 months he’s been here, I had to ask him on 2 occasions to clean up after himself -he stacked a pile out on the production floor extremely poorly, and he also left out boxes and all his materials for a project all over a shared office for several days while he worked on other things. He’s lost his key card/time card twice (lost his wallet). He has taken papers home and lost them, not sure why he took them home at all. He’s been in 2 car accidents. His pace of work is slower than normal, though he’s been completing all of his tasks and doing ok on his deliverables. While he has been taking feedback well and improved, I’ve been planning out a conversation on if he really thinks that this job is a good fit for him and the improvements he needs to make to be successful. Then he told me yesterday in passing that he just started on a new ADD medication and he got an app so he won’t lose his wallet again. Has anyone else had experience managing someone with ADD in a detail-oriented job with lots of moving parts and time pressures?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Not responding as a manager — I *am* a person with ADD working in a detail-oriented job with lots of moving parts and time pressures.
      First off have you heard the term ‘hyper-focus’? That’s the positive flip side of ADD. It’s when we go into overdrive and for once the squirrel we are chasing is the details of the task at hand.
      You can help the employee channel that by giving him mechanisms to deflect distractions. Priority lists are key for me, as was learning the phrases “how do you want me to handle these conflicting deadlines?” “Do you need me to put A on hold to do B now? If I lose my place in A I’ll spend more time on it than if I finish it now when I’m on a roll.” And “Boss wants new requests to go through her for scheduling –could you email her and copy me? I’ll tackle it as soon as she puts it into the priority list.”

      Standardized workspaces & workflows help. 5S is a great tool for shared spaces.

      Finally, please be aware that even effective medication can leave gaps –if I get a stomach bug, it will not work as well for those days.

    2. valentine*

      The ADD doesn’t change your end of the conversation. Decide where the line is so you’re not hand-holding or brainstorming this for him and stick to it.

  117. GriefBacon*

    I had a coworker, Mary, ask me for some help this week, a little mini-project, to get her some information for a meeting with her supervisor (who is also my supervisor, though Mary and I aren’t on the same team). I do program evaluation and all things data related at a non-profit, which means I spend a lot of time working closely with our service staff to support their data and evaluation needs. So Mary’s request was super in line with what I do on a daily basis.

    After I finished her request, Mary wrote me a nice thank you note…and included $50 with it. Cash. I feel very awkward about it, because I really was just doing my job (that I love!) and didn’t go above and beyond at all. She shouldn’t be paying me to do something I’m already getting paid to do. I also know Mary well enough to know that she’d be pretty hurt if I returned it. And, from her perspective, I can see how it did seem like going above and beyond (she’s on the quiter side, and often gets overlooked by the rest of her team).

    What do I do? Keep it? Return it? Donate it?

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I would still return it. That’s really odd. Have some nice words of thanks but you’ve already got a paycheck.

    2. Forkeater*

      I’m not a lawyer, but I work for a place that gets a lot of grants and we have to disclose certain gifts, I wonder if this falls into that? On the other hand my employer has a program where you can nominate someone for going above and beyond and HR gives them a gift card (I got one for something very similar to your story). I’d return it.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Double check to see if there is a company policy on gifts. My university has a threshold of about $25.00 on gifts — so someone can buy me a cup of coffee or a muffin basket as “thanks” or “happy holidays,” but they can’t give me cash. If there’s no policy, and you really don’t feel like you can return it, you could buy a treat for the office and share it in the break room, that way it sort of disburses the wealth within the department. $50 cash is too much to just keep though.

    4. Catleesi*

      Do you like her, as in would you like spending time with her? Maybe you could suggest that you use it to do lunch together, or something?

    5. Rey*

      This seems so weird because she is your coworker, not even someone outside your company. If you think that she’d be pretty, just leave it on her desk when she isn’t there with a post-it that says, “This was in my card by accident. Just returning.” Hopefully this leaves even space for her to save face.

  118. Beancounter*

    My department is now in an open environment, meaning everyone can hear most everything. When it’s quiet, the sound of keyboards clicking is quite audible. I need to monitor my blood pressure and I have a wrist cuff that I use, but I’m conscientious of the noise it makes and I don’t want to draw the attention of my coworkers. However, if I go to the bathroom to take it, I need to sit for about five minutes before I can get an accurate reading. I’d rather not sit on a toilet seat for five minutes before taking a reading.

    Without asking my colleagues if they’d mind (and thus draw their attention to my health), what say ye? Yay or nay to taking my BP at my desk?

    1. Not All*

      I work in a similar office in terms of sound. We often IM each other about it being “creepy quiet”. The loudest sounds are typing and space heaters (amazingly those are allowed). No one in my office would be bothered by someone using one…it isn’t an intrusive sound at all (or at least the ones I’ve used aren’t). I think the question is how much would it bother you if people DID realize that’s what you were doing? If you’d really be bothered if people found out, then I wouldn’t do it in your cube because (sound aside) inevitably someone will see you doing it. If you don’t care about that, but are just worried about it bothering people I’d go ahead and use it & just be matter-of-fact if someone asks what the sound is.

      1. valentine*

        If it’s louder than the typing, don’t do it in the room. Is there a conference or breastfeeding room, or a kitchen? Is your car close by?

    2. CheeryO*

      I’d say go ahead. If it’s that quiet, though, people will notice – and I’m sure you have at least one nosy/thoughtless person who will ask what it is, so I’d think about telling anyone within earshot before you use it at your desk for the first time. I wouldn’t ask permission, just frame it as more of a casual heads-up. You definitely don’t need to, but I just wouldn’t plan on being able to keep it a secret.

    3. SB*

      I’d say take it at your desk, and leave it up to your coworkers to let you know if the sound bothers them. Good luck!

    4. LilySparrow*

      I think “minding the noise” and “people noticing/asking about your health” are two separate issues.

      Unless your bp cuff is unusually noisy, it’s not that different from a printer – maybe even quieter. So it’s not a disturbing or intrusive noise, and unless you do it constantly I can’t see how any reasonable person would be bothered by a low hum, hissing, and a few relatively soft beeps.

      But it is something people will likely notice or be curious about, so if it’s really important to you that nobody knows you use it, you would need to find a private space.

      I think the easiest thing would be to go ahead and use it, and if anyone asks, just make a vague remark about how this is part of a new regimen you’re on. Just tracking your numbers, nothing to worry about.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Any chance your building has a furst aid room? That would be my go-to where I wotk.

  119. Ananas*

    I’ve been reading AAM for about a month and haven’t seen a question in this exact zone, so maybe it’s off-topic. Sincere apologies if I’ve goofed! But I have huge respect for the commenters here, and would appreciate any input.

    What is the best way prepare to re-enter the work force after a 25-year absence? I have 1-2 years to position myself.

    I earned a social sciences degree decades ago but never worked in my field. Previous work experience was accounting data entry (4-5 years) and payroll. Some volunteer experience in the interim but nothing substantial in the last 3 years. Is studying for a decent certification going to help with my job search or am I fated to do minimum wage work forever? I’m a mid-50s female and my local economy is slumping so I want to make the most of this repositioning period.

    I realize it’s nothing I can put on a resume, but FYI my volunteer work includes: social media rep for a huge online company (weird but true, one of just three volunteers in that position); church librarian; editor of a very small self-published hobby quarterly periodical.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think recent volunteer work is perfectly acceptable to include on a resume.

      That being said, I’d brush up on current software and make sure you’re comfortable with computers. Maybe consider re-entering the workforce through a temp agency.

      Your biggest hurdle is likely to be a lack of professional references, though you may be okay since you do volunteer.

    2. it happens*

      Check out the iRelaunch site for lots of resources specifically for people re-entering the workforce after multi-year absences.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      In addition to everything else, even if you end up getting an entry-level job out of the gate, due to lack of recent work experience, you may be able to move up more quickly than a 22-year-old because of your life experience.

      Good luck!

    4. Ananas*

      Thanks to Detective Amy, it happens, and Lily Rowan for your feedback, it is much appreciated and has already led me to change course a bit.

      Detective Amy Santiago mentioned volunteer work, which has spurred me to return to volunteering for Huge Online Company. I won’t be able to go back into the more exclusive role (I believe it has actually been eliminated since I stepped down three years ago), but I recently left from a lower-ranked role (with about 300-400 other people also volunteering for the same thing) and could easily return to that. Huge Online Company ties into a major industry in our city (not accounting), so that could be helpful too. So I will probably step quite easily back into my lesser role in January, and could easily work my way back into a more prominent spot.

      Definitely planning to brush up on current software. Luckily, I have access to a bare-bones version of a major accounting package and can use that to refresh myself, as well as taking a fresh look at the popular word processing and spreadsheet programs. I’m completely comfortable with computers but I know I need to upgrade my skills significantly.

      Thank you for the pointer to iRelaunch, it happens, that looks like exactly what I need for my next phase.

      Lily Rowan, I really appreciate the encouragement, I hope it will work out that way!

      2. Anna Held*

        Network! Let the internet company, your church, and whomever else know that you’re looking to get back in the workforce soon. Start working on your resume now so you have it ready should you need it (and I agree that the volunteer stuff is good for a resume, especially your social media work.)

        1. Ananas*

          Great point! Sadly, the church won’t work for networking as I relapsed to atheism and stopped attending. Loved the library work, though.

          However, I’ll keep an eye open for other networking opportunities. Hmmm, maybe I can volunteer at a school library?

  120. Anon for this*

    I report to “Peeta”, who reports to “Gale”. Peeta has to approve my work before it goes to Gale, and often what happens is that Peeta will have me completely change my work, and then Gale will have me completely change it in a different way. Sometimes, Gale’s version is more like what I imagined in the first place. Gale was my supervisor before restructuring, and I’m pretty familiar with the “Gale way” of doing things. Is this dynamic something I should talk to Peeta about and if so how?

    Btw, Peeta and Gale are good friends and get along really well, so this isn’t an interpersonal thing.

    1. mr. brightside*

      Meet with them at the same time and take notes in a way they can see it (like if there’s a computer display on the wall, take notes on the computer, so everyone can see them at the same time). You’re having a ton of rework because of communication problems and/or people not being able to make decisions. Either way, everyone needs to be on the same page.

    2. Mockingjay*

      This is a minor process issue. As mr. brightside said, get everyone in a meeting and figure out the edit/approval process. It sounds like the main things missing are at the beginning: agreement on what the scope (document or project) is supposed to be, and the role each plays.

      Figure out an easy way to capture the scope and roles: email reiterating what was agreed, online task, post-it note – whatever mechanism gets the attention of both. “Okay, per our meeting this morning, I am changing the teapot glaze to blue and writing new instructions to do so. Peeta will review the draft; Gale, you approve the final.”

  121. jack*

    Tips/scripts for when you aren’t going home for the holidays for family drama reasons? I’m estranged from my parents, and am young and single so the assumption for most people would be I’d travel home for Christmas. I took vacation time around there as well, so I can’t use my old excuse of “not enough time to travel home” (I live on the other side of the country from home, so that’s plausible). I just really don’t want to get into my parents’ relationship with me, but I don’t want to lie and accidentally slip up if I tell one person I am going home and one person I’m not.

    1. Murphy*

      Traveling can be a pain, so I’d just phrase it like a positive. “Nope, I get to stay home, which is great!” If you’re spending it with friends, I’d say that as well. “No, staying here and spending it with some good friends!”

      1. jack*

        That’s good. I just moved out to this area (I was living somewhere else that was also pretty far away from home before this) so I can go with “moving was such a hassle, looking forward to just relaxing over the holiday and spending some time with some new friends”

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Don’t lie, but you don’t need to tell the truth either.

      “Going home for the holidays?”
      “No, not this year. What about you? Are you traveling?”

      1. LilySparrow*

        This. It’s just a social convention to start a conversation. Nobody needs your family history, and honestly most people aren’t interested in your family drama anyway.

        Probably well over half the people who ask are just looking for an opening to talk about their own plans, and asking you first makes it socially acceptable.

  122. Heather Ridley*

    Hi Heather, I can’t let you solicit personal information here. Thanks for understanding. – Alison

    1. Heather Ridley*

      Would you have any suggestions for ways I could reach out to companies directly without it being…odd then? I have a hard time believing a complete stranger reaching out asking for a favor and some relatively personal information, right around the holidays no less, is going to be anything other than ignored :/.

  123. AwkwardTurtle*

    Any tips on answering behavioral type questions and handling a case study interview? I know there’s the STAR method for behavioral interviews. I’ve never done a case study before and it’s with one of the Big 4 accounting firms for a consulting position.

    1. Elle*

      You can find pretty comprehensive lists of typical behavioral questions online. Pick out a few stories from your past that could be tailored to answer any number of them (a time you did something hard, an accomplishment you’re proud of, a story about working with a difficult person or group, a story that highlights your strongest skills). Practice telling the stories, out loud, in STAR format, until its breezy and conversational for you to relay. Make sure that if there are financial or other metrics that came from them, you have the figures memorized so they’re comfortable to recall without saying ‘I think’. That will give you a bunch of starting points to pull out of your back pocket and translate easily into a response for a given question.
      Sorry, I’m no help on case studies.

  124. Leah*

    I work as local support in a big office for a big multinational company. The posted hours for the local office support in every office around the world is from 8 to 5, but on our weekly meeting this monday our boss made it clear that we’re supposed to help people during our work hours – meaning if my hours are from 7:30am to 4:45pm I’m supposed to help anyone that shows up at my desk at 7:30am, and my coworker Bob, who arrives at 9am and leaves at 6pm, is supposed to help people after 5pm. He said this because apparently on another meeting a while ago he got angry and said that support hours is from 8 to 5, period (I don’t remember this but ok) and so my coworker Bob, who was hired to arrive at 9 and leave at 6, was either arriving at 8 instead or just flat out refusing to help people who came by the local support desk after 5.

    Well, this tuesday, Bob arrived at 8:50am as usual, but at 4:45pm, as I was getting ready to leave, a customer came by asking for help, and Bob said to him that depending on what he needed we wouldn’t be able to help him because support hours is only until 5. I pulled him aside discreetly and whispered, out of the customer’s earshot, what about that thing the boss said yesterday? Didn’t you arrive at almost nine today? You’re supposed to help people after five! And to that Bob said, “I’m not giving support after five.”

    Now I’m in a pickle. Should I tell my boss that Bob is still closing the support desk at 5? Or should I keep quiet to not create tension between us?

    A bit of background: I’m the only woman on our team – me, Bob, Tim, and Luke do local support, John exclusively supports all VIPs, and my boss supervises us all. The guys have worked together in this company for a while now (between three to seven years) while my boss is nearing 20 years with the company, and I was just hired last may. A couple of months ago a last minute meeting with all six of us popped up on our calendar, and once we got there, Tim started talking about how he, Bob and Luke all agreed that I was doing things that they didn’t agree with, and they wanted to raise these things with our boss. Note that that was the first time I’d heard these complaints, and they for some reason decided to discuss them in front of our entire team before addressing them with me privately first. It was also implied that the three of them were talking about me behind my back, since they were all in on it, and only me, John and my boss had no idea this was the topic of the meeting. Obviously the whole experience left me feeling like shit. And then this last monday it happened again: Bob raised an issue he had with something he believed I did on our weekly meeting instead of clearing it out with me first.

    Suffice to day that I’m not on best terms with these three (and doubt I ever will) and I feel like talking to my boss about what Bob’s doing could potentially make the situation between us worse, but I’m worried keeping this to myself could bite me in the ass later. Should I just keep doing my job as usual and forget it happened, or should I point out to my boss that Bob is deliberately going against his orders?

    2. Murphy*

      I think you should tell your boss, and frame it as concern for the customers first and foremost. (It’s confusing to have set times for support but also to help people outside of that. But that’s a separate issue.)

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        frame it as concern for the customers first and foremost.

        In fact, you might want to ask your boss to message it out to the whole company in addition to communicating it internally at your weekly meeting.

        If the whole company gets an email saying “Support is available from 7:30am to 6pm,” then Bob can’t really tell users that support ends at 5pm.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Now I’m in a pickle. Should I tell my boss that Bob is still closing the support desk at 5? Or should I keep quiet to not create tension between us?

      You didn’t create tension. Bob did by not doing his job and by ganging up on you with Luke and Tim.

      1. valentine*

        If fighting fire with fire will work for you, bring it up at the next meeting. Otherwise, tell just your boss and ask whether people should be raising concerns with you instead of saving them for meetings.

  125. Beachlover*

    Thanks for the advice, my mom works at a different company not in the industry Sansa was a client asking for a business inquiry. Sansa is very disorganized and was trying to pass the buck to Jane and Fergus to I guess doing her job. Elise has since moved on happily employed as a teapot salesperson at a different company as well as owning a teacups sales company as a freelance side hustle. Her story taught me not to allow desperation cause me take the wrong job. I have since moved on and focusing my efforts on the second company. I sent a resume/application a few months after applying to the first one, and network with the past and present staff and will give them a call next week about an interview schedule and preparation

  126. starsaphire*

    I survived the office Christmas thing!

    The standard AAM advice worked like a charm. I came early, schmoozed with my boss and the next two tiers of bosses for a moment, sat at the Department Table (and ate two of the tiniest muffins I’ve ever seen outside a dollhouse), drank coffee because “it’s too early in the morning for champagne” (huuuge lie) and stayed for a little over half an hour. Then it was “oh, I have so much work to do, got a big project this morning, here are my drink and raffle tickets, see you all back at the office,” and escaped.

    I felt like I was making a jailbreak, honest to goodness, fleeing across that parking lot. But I survived, and I got a big smile from the boss for showing up, so… total win! :)

    Thanks everyone! Best advice ever. :)

  127. Wine not Whine*

    This is picayune as all-get-out, and I’m probably being petty, but it’s gotten under my skin.

    There’s been a push lately to make our workplace more pleasant. Yay! One of the recent big initiatives was a complete remodeling of our breakroom. More (and significantly more comfortable) seating, free healthy snacks, better paint, a TV, bookshelves. All very nice, all “unveiled” during an all-hands just about a month ago.

    This week, one of the departments (the largest at this location) decided to take over the entire room for all-day meetings! My department found out about it when we went down at mid-morning on Monday for coffee – our long-standing habit, a 15-20 minute daily break to move around and socialize. There was no notice; there was nowhere open to sit and no table space; speaking or doing anything that made noise (like using the microwave or even getting past people to get into the fridge) was obvious, disruptive, and terribly awkward.

    This move comes across as terribly arrogant – as if there’s no one else in the building who matters. It was particularly hard on our facilities staff, who don’t have nice offices (and shouldn’t be forced to eat at their workstations just because _someone else_ wants the nice space); nor should our receptionist have to eat at the front desk! And it’s not as if this building doesn’t have other dedicated meeting rooms – in fact, the one that had previously been used for meetings of this type was empty yesterday while everyone was downstairs.

    I’m working on a note to the head of HR. On the one hand, I don’t think a “super-cushy meeting room with free snacks!” falls within the intent of the renovation, and so the department heads need, um, enlightenment on this point. On the other hand, if I misunderstood and it *is* part of the intent, there needs to be a policy and a process where the other workers in the building are notified and given some sort of alternative space. And the space should then no longer be referred to as the “Employee Lounge,” but rather as the “Basement Meeting Room that employees can use if no one else has it scheduled.”

    Not sure I’m looking for any advice here, just venting and validation. Thanks for listening.

    1. fposte*

      I initially read you as talking about a bathroom renovation, so that made your comment super-startling.

      I think you’re on the right track in exploring what the purpose here is. Did you guys always have access to the breakroom prior to remodeling? If so, it might be worth noting that the unintended consequence is employees have *less* benefit from the breakroom than before.

      1. Wine not Whine*

        Thanks. Yes, it’s always been unlimited access; on the other hand, it wasn’t all that inviting. :) I like the way you phrased it about having less benefit from it!

    2. mr. brightside*

      If your break room is not meant to be a meeting room, they shouldn’t be booking it for meetings. If they ARE booking it for meetings, they need to let you know in advance.

      But since it’s the break room, they really don’t have much to stand on about if they’re giving you looks for using it as a break room. Unless Meeting Room A is temporarily the break room…. which would be weird.

    3. WellRed*

      “speaking or doing anything that made noise (like using the microwave or even getting past people to get into the fridge) was obvious, disruptive, and terribly awkward.”

      yeah, well, if you have a meeting in the kitchen area, it’s going to be noisy. Next time microwave some fish.

      1. Wine not Whine*

        Fish feels like the nuclear option. Ditto burned popcorn. I don’t want to be That Worker.

        The leftovers that I warmed yesterday, however…garlicky mushroom pilaf with bacon. There was a scent trail all the way back to my desk.

        I hope they enjoyed it.
        I did.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Could you tell the head of HR that you saw that Fergus is reserving the break room for team meetings and you want to know how you could do it too?

      1. Wine not Whine*

        Thanks for the thought, but I really don’t feel any need for subterfuge here. It’s either policy to allow it or policy not to, and whichever it is needs to be explicit.
        I got too busy this afternoon to work on it, and I want to be certain that I don’t come across as snarky or whiny. So I’m going to chew on it over the weekend and send something off on Monday.

        1. Wine not Whine*

          My comments, sent this morning. We’ll see what kind of response comes back.

          Hi, [HR person who was copied on original meeting email],

          The more I think about it, the less I like the precedent that this sets.

          I’m just not sure that using the lounge as a space for large meetings was quite the idea you had in mind when it was renovated. If there’s no other space available and no way to re-schedule the meeting, perhaps it’s okay as a last resort; but taking over the “comfy space with snacks” just because it’s there – as opposed to dedicated meeting spaces like the solarium – just isn’t fair to everyone else in the building.

          I have no gripe with a few folks taking a table to work on something where they won’t disturb other folks in their cubes. That makes perfect sense. But these meetings took over the entire room.
          There was little space to get to the fridge/cooler, none at all to get around the corner to the snack area.

          Much more importantly, there were no seats left. A minor thing if, like far too many of us, you eat your lunch at your desk. But for folks like [receptionist], who _have_ no other space to take a break? Where is she supposed to go to get away from her desk for a few minutes? And isn’t the idea of having a nice lounge area, meant to encourage us _not_ to eat at our desks?

          Now, if I’m mistaken – if this _was_ in the utilization plan – then please correct me! But if it is, then as [office manager] says, we need to have a policy that lets other users know in advance. If for no other reason, because it’s awkward as all heck for a couple of folks to walk in chatting in normal voices, only to find they’ve interrupted someone’s presentation.

          Just my two cents, keep the change. :) Thanks for listening!
          Cheers, [Whine]

          >>Note that we’re fairly collegial and informal in inter-office email; no one is going to be bothered by the smiley and quip in the closing.

  128. Ok_Go_West*

    A friend is pregnant with her first child. I do not have any children. Every time I see her, she brings up her need to decide how long of a leave she will take from her job as one of her biggest concerns. She is very interested in taking a leave of around four or five months (her company provides 12 weeks of partially paid leave, and she would take the rest unpaid). As I told her, I believe it’s a personal decision and the right answer will be different for each individual. I don’t have a stake in her choice, or even consider it to be my place to advise her. Nevertheless, she keeps bringing it up, which makes me think she wants my input.

    My question: for anyone who took an unpaid family leave of 4-6 months, what were the pros and cons? If it’s relevant, my friend is smart but not terribly career-driven or invested in climbing the ladder.

    1. SB*

      It’s possible your friend is one of those people who “thinks by talking”, if you will. She may be bringing this up with you not because she wants advice, but because she needs to talk about it out loud to think it through. If you’re up for being a sound board, you can say things like:

      – “This sounds like a tough decision.”
      – “What do you think you’ll do?”
      – “Sounds like there will be pros and cons either way, huh?”

      Then just leave a pause for her to talk some more.

      (Of course, if you don’t want to listen to her talk about it any more, that’s perfectly understandable and your scripts would be different in that case.)

  129. Maxi Million*

    A week and a half ago my coworker quit on the spot and walked out. I have never seen anyone just leave in the middle of the day and it was really jarring and felt abnormal.

    Yesterday he came back. The company gave in to the demands he made: Our boss Jane and our coworker Lucinda were both let go and he was given a raise. They had to beg to get him back.

    Am I wrong for being surprised that it worked? He has always been nice and even keeled as far as I could tell. I never had w problem with it. I don’t know what the issue was but it feels weird to me that the company caved to whatever he wanted.

    Has anyone ever witnessed a walk out or quit on the spot where it actually turned out in favor of the employee?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I didn’t directly witness it, but yes. When I was at toxic workplace a few years ago, there was a woman who walked out in the middle of a shift because she reached her breaking point. A couple of days later she was back. I’m not entirely sure what all the details of that situation were, but I guess if you are a valuable enough employee, it can work.

    2. LQ*

      WOW! That seems really shocking. They fired 2 people and gave him a raise?! What …I …I’m shocked. Like were the 2 people doing something illegal or something?

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      The curious cat that lives within me is DYING to know what his demands entailed and why, because it actually working sort of implies there were some issues going on with the 2 that were fired. Or that this coworker has unexpected clout/connections.

    4. Four lights*

      I think someone at my last job threatened to leave and got a raise. Due to staffing issues, boss couldn’t afford to let her leave.

    5. gmg22*

      Um, wow. I know your question is “Has anyone else ever seen someone walk off a job as a successful bargaining tactic?” but I am totally stuck on “One of his conditions for coming back was that his boss and another colleague be fired, and he got that.” Of course, there are a zillion possible reasons for that ranging from the legitimate end of the scale (he accused your colleagues of unscrupulous behavior of some kind, and his accusations were substantiated) to … not necessarily illegitimate, but certainly not conducive to good organizational morale (he was just at some kind of impasse with these colleagues and refused to work with them anymore, and management saw him as a sufficiently valuable employee that they would fire these people to get him to come back). Either way, wow. You really have no sense whatsoever of what transpired here? That would certainly unsettle me if I worked there. If there was unethical behavior on the part of your fired colleagues, is management under some kind of obligation to share what information they can about that with the rest of you? I would love to hear Allison’s take on this.

      1. mr. brightside*

        That would certainly unsettle me if I worked there.

        That’s what I’m stuck on. What was the process there? Dude shows up, says fire those two people and I’ll come back, and so they immediately got fired?

        I’d feel very unnerved.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yeah, if it was “Fergus and Lucinda have been sexually harassing me and here is hard, incontrovertible evidence,” then I can see firing them and giving him a rise to come back. But otherwise… wow.

  130. FinallyFriday*

    Anyone out there have any advice on dealing with sudden international travel? My company may need someone to travel to Europe next week, and my name came up as a possible person to support. We’ve known about this for a while and the decision made earlier this week was that we’d only be sending one person to this meeting. Now it’s coming up again and I’m frustrated at the last minute nature, especially this close to the holidays.

    Normally I’d jump in this type of trip, even with the incredibly short notice and even though it’s outside my job duties, but this is not going to be an even marginally fun business trip.

    1. Emilitron*

      On paper it’s simple – If you have a conflict, you tell them, and you don’t go; but otherwise if they’re sending you, you go. In practice, nobody’s 100% free or 100% unavailable so it turns into a discussion – see if you can get all the bosses and all the potential travelers get in a room (or on an email thread) and hash through who actually kind of wants to go, honestly can’t, hypothetically could but doesn’t want to, is somewhat available but also less knowledgeable, etc. And then if it turns out to be you who’s the best choice, you will at least have had some say in the decision, and some transparency.

    2. Ali G*

      Are business trips ever really fun? I might be jaded because I’ve done a lot of work travel to cool places – and spent the majority of my time in some hotel that could have been literally anywhere on the planet.
      Anyway, yeah I’ve done lots of last minute trips to Europe. Like get a call on Wednesday saying I need to be there for a meeting Monday (so leaving Saturday night – east coast US).
      All I can tell you is that plane tickets of this type are extremely expensive. If you really don’t want to go, you might look up the cost (especially if you are only going for a few days) and point out that maybe the benefit of your time on this trip isn’t outweighing the costs of getting you there (not to mention hotel and food).

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I mean, yeah, sometimes these things do happen and it’s necessary. However, last minute bookings for Europe are typically expensive, so the one thing to bring up is really determining the cost befefit of sending you (or anyone really) on such short notice. Can the objectives be accomplished via a video or conference call? But if it really is an emergency or it means a better outcome, it’s probably best to do it willingly despite the inconvenience, at least this once.

  131. Ok_Go_West*

    A friend is pregnant with her first child. I do not have any children. Every time I see her, she brings up her need to decide how long of a leave she will take from her job as one of her biggest concerns. She is very interested in taking a leave of around four or five months (her company provides 12 weeks of partially paid leave, and she would take the rest unpaid). As I told her, I believe it’s a personal decision and the right answer will be different for each individual. I don’t have a stake in her choice, or even consider it to be my place to advise her. Nevertheless, she keeps bringing it up, which makes me think she wants my input.

    My question: for anyone who took an unpaid family leave of 4-6 months, what were the pros and cons? If it’s relevant, my friend is smart but not terribly career-driven or invested in climbing the ladder.

    1. Four lights*

      I think a lot of new moms struggle with the idea that they want to stay home with their young children, but feel like they ought to want to work. It could by she’s trying to work through feelings like this.

      You could point her to mom message boards/facebook groups.

        1. MAPS*

          If you post a duplicate comment I believe there is a message about it instead of the post going through. So it can’t be accident that OP posted this twice.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            No, that’s only true if you entered an email address with your comment. Please stop hassling commenters, as I’ve asked you elsewhere on this page.

    3. NewMom*

      So I went back to work at month 4, then was home for a couple of weeks round 6 months. (childcare situation–nanny had health problems and had to quit early and daycare slot didn’t open until Sept 1)

      In a lot of ways, I wanted to be back at work at week 8. I’m not a baby person and I was really, really tired of being home with the kid day in and day out. I made sure to get out and do some activity every day, but I’m just not made to be at home.

      That said, I felt WAY better putting my kid in daycare at 6 months rather than too much earlier. 5 months would have been the best IMO. By that age, he needed less one on one attention. He was sitting, starting to crawl/scoot, and LOVED being around other kids. He’s much better off in a daycare environment than he would be home with me, but before month 5, I do think it was good for him to have one-on-one care. He also had more of an immune system and more vaccinations before starting daycare, which is a good thing.

      In an ideal world, I would have taken off 2-3 months, then my husband would have taken off another 2-3 so the kid could have been home. But my husband got 3 days parental leave that he used around the birth (he took PTO, too, but wasn’t FLMA eligible).

      Basically, the ideal length of leave *for me* was shorter, but the ideal length of having a parent home with the baby was longer. This obviously depends on temperament of the parent and baby. I know plenty of moms dread going back to work, and I was really, really happy to get back to it.

      1. jnsunique*

        Thanks for posting this – I don’t hear from enough mothers who talk about wanting to get back to work. I originally wanted to take 10 weeks off and ended up going back a week early. I put my baby in daycare at week 8 and took an easy week off in between!

      3. Owler*

        My friend and her husband both got 12 weeks off (a mixture of paid and unpaid), and they did something similar. She took the first three months off and stayed home with newborn; he overlapped part of the third month, and they visited family who were international; he finished out the last two months with baby while she went back.

        We live on an area where newborn care is hard to find, so I think they ended up matching with another family with a newborn and hiring a nanny for the two babies. They would alternate hosting every two weeks.

    4. Ranon*

      I took six months, it was great! It happened to coincide with a slow period at my office, so they didn’t particularly miss me – I took maybe two or three phone calls the whole time. The biggest things for me were definitely feeling better about putting a six month old in daycare- they’re so much studier seeming as they get older- and it being much much much easier to breastfeed than to pump at work. So if breastfeeding is something your friend is interested in trying, that’s a pro as well, if it works out- it doesn’t always. Plus by six months my kiddo was sleeping pretty much through the night (like 12 hours through, we got very very lucky with this one) so my brain even mostly worked.

      Another nice thing about starting daycare at six months was that we snuck in after other people got interesting but before stranger danger, so the transition was pretty smooth.

      There were pretty much no cons for me- my first performance review back was one of the best I’ve gotten and came with a decent raise, too. But the universe was kind and put my projects on hold for almost exactly the time I was gone due to factors I didn’t have the slightest input in, which isn’t exactly plannable.

  132. Maddie*

    I quit three weeks ago, but my old company called me in a panic on Tuesday begging for help. Apparently the CFO they’d brought on from a temp company took my absence as leave to mess with the system as much as he wanted. (I was a senior accountant there, and had been telling him ‘no’ on a lot of things. I guess he didn’t listen when I explained why they were all bad ideas.) However, I quit for a reason. I agreed to come back for a few days and clean things up, but when I got there things were SOOOO much worse than I could have imagined. The person he hired to replace me got zero training despite me training the CFO on my job so he could help answer and writing up EXTENSIVE documentation. He didn’t even give them my documentation on the job that I’d written up. She had been working from a set of my old notes that she’d found tucked away in my old desk.

    2. mr. brightside*

      Wow. Yeah, don’t go back there. It sounds like a swarm of bees. You warned them, they did it anyway, cleaning it up is not on you.

      1. Maddie*

        I did tell them I could help this week. But I have a new job, so yeah, not going back. I only said yes because I thought it would be a quick fix. I didn’t realize just HOW BAD it was until I started digging in. It’s so bad, I honestly wonder if the guy actually had an accounting degree. (I’m not the only one asking this. It’s bad.) I’d already committed to helping through today, but after that I am washing my hands of it. The company dug this hole themselves by being a swarm of bees.

        Apparently a lot of the people they put out offers to turned them down based on their Glassdoor reviews. I looked up the glassdoor, and yeah, the reviews out there are accurate. They really have only themselves to blame.

  133. Free Meerkats*

    Cringe inducing moment of the week:

    We are recruiting a new Public Works Director and as part of that, the four finalists were at a meet and greet thing for a couple of hours in a conference room. Much senior management in attendance, including the mayor. I introduced myself to one candidate and he asked what I did. My semi-joking reply, “I’m in Industrial Pretreatment, so a Sewer Cop.” Standing next to me – the Chief of Police who introduced himself as “XXX, a Cop Cop.”

  134. LQ*

    The phone etiquette item earlier had me thinking about the conference call phone etiquette. I’ve had a lot of calls which are 1-1 calls but we both call into a joint conference call line (sometimes so screen sharing can happen, but sometimes it’s just a call). I always have to use the actual phone for audio, which means I usually dial in first then connect online if there is that aspect too. But it’s always like, do I just start talking, “Hi, this is LQ, is anyone there?” Ugh. I hate all of the options, I hate being late (which was what someone else suggested, if I’m just always 1-2 minutes late, the other person will already be on, which …not good).

    How do other people handing these conference calls? Or is everyone just online so they can see if someone else is on yet?

    1. WellRed*

      I dial in and say, “hello, this is WellRed” and see if anyone responds. Or sometimes they hear my dialing in and ask if I’m there. Kind of awkward at times.

      1. LQ*

        I’m glad it isn’t just me with the awkward. I hate the phone but realize it’s a big part of my role right now so I want to get better at it.

    2. bdg*

      We do a lot of conference calls. People sometimes do it differently, but when I’m leading a meeting I prefer if you call in, put your phone on mute, and then wait for the organizer to ask people to identify themselves. If the meeting is late getting started it’s fine to ask if anyone is there, but otherwise wait for the organizer (in my opinion). Sometimes I’m handling last minute things before the meeting and don’t want to run over to the phone to unmute, say, “still waiting on some more folks to join,” and then get back to my work.

      1. LQ*

        That I can absolutely do, mostly I’m in a physical room with other people and there is pre-meeting in the room chatter while we wait for folks to show up. I mostly feel awkward when it’s 1-1, but wait for the organizer I can do!

    3. nonymous*

      we used to have a system where people would record their name at call in and when the meeting host called in it would just announce you automatically “nonymous1 has joined the meeting”, “nonmous2 has joined the meeting”. We’ve since lost the auto-announcement, but it’s just hold music until the host joins so they just ask for who is on the call when they finally dial in.

      1. nonegiven*

        Graham Norton. A lady told a story about being late for work and calling in during her commute just as someone cut her off in traffic. “Knob, wanker has joined the meeting.”

    4. Kat in VA*

      I usually just say, “Kat on the line here” and see if anyone answers. We have Zoom, though, so it’ll tell you if you’re the first person and how many people there are on the line.

  135. Michaela*

    Someone want to tell me happy-ending stories about taking a sabbatical to pursue a personal interest/recover from burnout and going back to your original field? I am going to spend the weekend working on my application for an MFA and ignoring the brainweasels telling me that I’m ruining my life.

    1. Meteor*

      It’s easier if you have significant accomplishments/recognition before you leave. My husband has worked with a few highly talented software engineers who took time off and then came back to the workforce. The reason they were readily accepted back is because prior to sabbatical, they had made meaningful contributions to open-source or well-known projects that are respected in that tech community, which showed their talent. If you’re able to do anything similar in your field, I’d recommend that before taking the break.

      2. Reba*

        My spouse left coding to get an MFA (sorta, it was an art degree that involved a lot of coding). Because they are in a creative end of tech, their work has a lot of discrete projects that can be presented in a portfolio, and the MFA work kinda went along with it. But I agree with Meteor that having good work to show is what it’s about. And pausing work for a degree is extremely normal! Spouse went back into same field at better rate after the degree.

        Spouse also took a breather from work, later, to accompany me on a year of travel for my PhD research (because they are awesome). They were super anxious about being away from work, but eventually found it easy to explore job openings from abroad and start a new job pretty much right on schedule when we came back. And they get points for spouse-supporting and it’s an interesting reason for the break, I guess. So another point to consider is (later on) how to describe the break in a reasonable way to future interviewers.

        Good luck!

  136. Dual Faith Household*

    I was raised by a Jewish father and a Catholic mother. We did both religions. As an adult, I’m more agnostic than anything. I don’t care what holiday people want to wish me. I’ll take all kind words and good wishes. Heck, say it in a language I don’t speak and I’ll take that, too!

    1. Dog Person*

      I agree with you. I am not very religious, but I have two co-workers who are very religious. They both pray for me and will mention that they pray for me. I tell them thank-you for praying for me because I can use all the prayers I can get. There is no point in being ugly. I thank them and move one to the next thing.

  137. Natalie*

    Just complaining into the void and/or fellow accounting people. My company has no de minimis threshold, not even in practice. I just spent thirty minutes trying to figure out what was going on with a ten-cent balance in an account, with my most hard-ass accounting professor’s words ringing in my brain: “don’t push pennies around the page.” Now a boss two levels above me and a couple more employees are trying to figure it out.

    I hate this place.

    1. Dog Person*

      I did my cousin’s books for his company. He would assist in finding the penny. I could not get him to understand it cost him more if I looked for the penny then if we just wrote it off.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ll lose my mind over 10c on a personal level. However I’m blessed with the ability to just write it off if my stubbornness wears out. My boss is big on “your time costs so much, don’t waste the labor.”

      I would never be able to handle a boss like yours, why don’t they have better things to do?!

      1. Natalie*

        It’s the whole effing company – there’s got to be at least 40 people in finance, maybe more. It’s truly mystifying, among other things. I’ve been casually looking for a new job since my first week.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Reason 37 on my list of why I could never work at a place who needed 40 people in finance. But the bigger the company, the less wiggle room in write offs I’ve noticed.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I can understand chasing pennies if you’re automating procedures. A friend is writing code for an international company that has to convert between currencies, and he’s spent a lot of time chasing fractions of a penny because when his algorithm goes live, tiny drifts will quickly add up.

      Getting some people to understand rounding errors though… have they not seen what happens when you divide 1/3 on a digital calculator?

  138. Blech Work*

    My job has a very rigid PTO structure. Essentially, all employees with 0-5 years of service get 11 days a year. There is no separate sick or vacation time, and to add insult to injury we have to work most holidays (this is a healthcare facility). Once you make it to six years, they add on two more days. At our location of 50 employees, there are maybe 3 employees who have been here for more than five years. Burnout rate is high, many people don’t last more than a year or two, if that. I am coming up on my annual review, and I am at my wit’s end. Everyone comes in to work sick due to the lack of PTO, and we are always infecting each other. (We have many patients with compromised immune systems, so this is a HUGE problem). Hours are long, the building isn’t properly temperature-controlled, and many days we don’t have time to eat or hydrate ourselves. It’s an unhealthy environment both physically and mentally.

    For a variety of reasons, I feel “stuck” at this job for at least the next six months. (I won’t take up this whole post with the details, but essentially I have two major expenses coming up that will come close to breaking my bank. I can’t risk starting a new job, it not working out, then being unable to pay these off. I want to wait until I have made the payments prior to venturing out. Pay at my job isn’t super stellar, but it is liveable and my position seems to be secure). That being said, my one year review is coming up and I really want to ask for more time off. I know there is a fat chance I will get any additional days given that my company has such a rigid accrual rate. Does anyone have advice for negotiating for better PTO at a job which doesn’t have lots of flexibility in this area? I am about to lose my sanity. I had to go to the hospital for a health emergency because this job burnt me out so bad, which means, $1,500 in ER bills! I have coworkers who talk about frequently falling asleep at the wheel on the way home from work out of sheer exhaustion. People are quitting left and right, and the limited PTO is a contributing factor. While I would like a raise, at this point I’d honestly take a couple extra days in PTO above a raise simply because I am close to physically and mentally breaking down – as are most of my coworkers.

  139. WellRed*

    We had to let someone go this week. She heads up one of our publications and they have decided to decease, immediately. Unexpected, but not surprising. Her company email has been temporarily left in place. She put as a message: I am no longer working at Company and Publication is no longer being published. If you have any job openings or need to reach me, email me at X.

    Not sure if the “job openings” is ballsy or bitter. It certainly isn’t likely to get her a reporting job.

    1. MAPS*

      Almost the exact same story was shared above by the poster “Anon de plume”. Weird that you both had the exact same thing happen to you

        1. MAPS*

          A double post, two hours apart, with two different user names, with different wording? I thought one person posting multiple names was sock puppeting (which is against the rules here). You have posted several times in multiple threads with 2 different names. It wasn’t like you went anonymous for a single post.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It seems clear to me that the first post didn’t go through so she tried posting it again — and then I released the first one from moderation so now there are two.

            Socket puppetry is when someone posts under multiple user names to make it look like their viewpoint has more support than it really does. It’s not sock puppetry to use a different name for other reasons (such as wanting to be more anonymous or just trying out a different name).

            Please stop hassling this commenter.

    2. Antilles*

      When I read your post, it came off to me as bitter. The rest of it would be basically fine, but the mention of job openings just makes the tone come off as irritated.
      And it’s also completely unnecessary. If you simply write the entire message minus that phrase (if you need me, please feel free to email me at X), it still conveys that she’s presumably looking for opportunities. No need to specifically call out “job openings”, because the first sentence of “No longer at Company because Publication was canceled” already clearly conveys a message of searching.

  140. Anonymous non-Christian*

    Ugh – someone decided that not decorating for Christmas wasn’t acceptable and left crap for me to decorate with. Why won’t people just mind their own business if someone doesn’t want trees or Hannukah Balls or whatever around their workspace?

    1. Jessen*

      I would suggest doing one of those things where you take a big tangle of Christmas lights and just hang them on a hook and plug them in.

      Ok, don’t actually do that, bit it would be amusing.

    2. Murphy*

      Print out a picture of the Grinch and hang that up.

      But I agree. That’s stupid. Let people decorate or not.

      1. Anonymous non-Christian*

        Hmm … but I’m NOT a grinch. It’s just that forcing a religious holiday on me that is not my holiday pisses me off.

        1. Asenath*

          It is my holiday, and I don’t decorate and no one minds, but that’s just my corner of the world. Some people decorate and some don’t. But no one gives me decorations to put up, and when they still used to invite me to help, they accepted “no” as an answer. So, who decided this for you? If it was a co-worker, toss the decorations in a corner (or elsewhere), and ignore the whole issue. If it’s your manager, maybe that won’t work.

      1. Anonymous non-Christian*

        Not sure … I suspect someone but don’t know for certain. I think at the end of the day I’m just going to put it on a common table or empty workspace.

        1. mr. brightside*

          Yeah, just shove it off somewhere. You didn’t ask for it, you don’t want it, it’s not necessary for your job. There’s enough microaggessions in coming to work or existing in the world this month, let this one be someone else’s problem.

  141. Jessen*

    So I’m starting an online college program and I’m frankly kind of lost. It’s hard to tell what exactly people are looking for – when I try googling info I get mostly results that seem to be advertising or trying to sell people on degree programs. I know it’s a state school and not a for-profit, which is at least a decent sign, and it would be pretty difficult for me to do a regular college program right now. I know when I first went to college I was kind of in the last years of “just get a degree and everything will be great” and that didn’t turn out to be true.

    Anyone know any good reliable guides on evaluating a major (programming and/or computer security) and your institution in order to judge career prospects?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Look for destination survey information out of the career center. They should be promoting where their grads are going for jobs. Also internship locations. Are students getting internships at the major industries in your area? Is the program accreditation? Not the school itself, but the program. AACSB is the major accrediting body for business schools. There are other for other fields.

      1. Jessen*

        Are internships just a standard thing now? I feel like being expected to do an internship would be a major turn-off for practical reasons for me. But I’m mostly familiar with how academia works, or with those stupid “job advice” places that they give folk on welfare.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          I work at an urban high transfer institution. My average age of students is 27, most going part time. They still do internships. Not required but encouraged. What I meant more was if your school is located next to Google (for example) are students getting internships at Google? Is your school connected with industry in the area. My accounting program sends interns to all the major accounting firms in our city, which usually run by our alumni. So, it’s good evidence that our students will end up with jobs in their field.

          If you have no experience in a field then an internship is a great foot in the door. Many of my students turn internships into full time jobs. Also most of my interns are paid, so that helps my high need, first gen student body.

          1. Jessen*

            Ok I’m getting what you’re saying now. I’m mostly trying to balance, I have a pretty decently paid job now and I’m unlikely to want to take a significant pay cut to get started. But I also feel like I’m in a dead-end spot without furthering my education now, and I do have some stuff I would like to do (and I would have internal options). But some things are sounding too good to be true, and given the tech work I’m also somewhat unsure if certain things need a degree or just skills.

            1. nonymous*

              Is there someone on the desired org branch that is alum from the state school and could act as your mentor? Depending on your city or industry LinkedIn can be a good source for finding this out. Also can reach out to the department alumni network to see if anyone from the program is now at your company.

              1. Jessen*

                No, the online program is really too new for there to be a decent alumni network, and I get the sense that it’s pretty disconnected from any of the physical programs.

  142. Promotion?!*

    I gotta share this here, because I’ve no idea who I can tell what to in my rather weird workplace. My boss has complained for ages that since I don’t work for the same legal entity as him (liability issues) he can’t manage my compensation – and it annoys the heck out of him, because I’ve told him flat out that I believe I’m underpaid for what I do (and he agrees). His solution, which blindsided me this past Monday, was to create a new role within the legal entity he is in, sort of farm it around, and then pull me into a one-on-one call and offer it to me…as if I’d heard of it, interviewed for it, and was interested in it. Long story short – I took the offer. Technically I keep doing what I’ve been doing for the past few years, but there are a few significant modifiers: we cut out a group that previously had a say in my comp/goals/etc., I take on a new project management role with two new senior staff, and I get a 20% raise! I’m still a little unsure what the heck actually happened, but this is kinda how he rolls on stuff in general, so I’m glad that he’s on my side and he feels I’m worth the effort!

    In addition, because of the legal entity the new role is in and the level it’s at, I now qualify for a bonus program I didn’t before – and I get a new title which moves away from my previous admin-related role. So, new challenges, new title, opportunities to grow where I thought I was stuck (albeit in a job I loved), with the same boss/group as before (whom I adore). It’s been a crazy crazy week, but I am excited and amazed. Best early Christmas present ever!

    1. mr. brightside*

      Sorry, but this honestly sounds a little weird to me. There’s liability issues with you working in the same legal entity as him, he doesn’t handle your compensation, but he’s still your boss? And he managed some kind of work-around now where you now work for the same entity he does and he gets to pay you more?

      If this is all on the up-and-up, that’s great. But it’s ringing some slight bells in my head. Especially since you say you don’t know what the heck actually happened.

      1. nonymous*

        I have an acquaintance that is a MSW at a program that is actually a partnership between different orgs. Even though the team reports to the same supervisor on a daily basis their employment is via the participating orgs, which means some roles are paid through the children’s hospital and others are via the University and others are funded at a State level. My understanding is that when the program was created they identified consistent job codes across the orgs, but in the years since those pay ladders have diverged. So what his boss switched to was assigning a % of each person’s job to each of the orgs so that he can maintain control of the salaries across the team.

  143. Suspendersarecool*

    How long does it take for a degree to get “stale”? I’m on track to finish my masters in May, but I’m considering waiting a year or so to start job hunting because I’m expecting my first child this summer and my current job is overall decent and family-friendly. Will it be harder to get my first masters – level job if I wait? Math/analytics field if that makes a difference.

  144. anonymoushiker*

    I’m hearing next week about next steps for a job I’m excited/a good match for. They’ve taken my references over a week ago but haven’t contacted at least one of them. I am trying to remember that not getting the job is ok (I am in a decent job now, but it’s getting close to time to move on) as well as assume I didn’t so that I don’t get my hopes up too much. Does anyone have particularly good strategies during the waiting game of hearing back from employers at this point?

  145. Triplestep*

    If you have consulting experience, please comment here …

    I am being courted by a large consulting firm (50K employees globally) which places people on client accounts and/or sites. I have been employed by workplaces where this firm has placed people and have worked alongside them, and I have known people in my industry to join this firm.

    I am in job search mode now, and they’ve asked if I’d be interested in a remote role (yes please!) to focus on Strategic Planning, which something I’ve been wanting to do. (Right now it’s only part of what I want to do – not the focus.) I am 55 years old and want to ramp down my stress and level of responsibility. I feel that this focus – and the ability to learn more about data analysis (both on the job and via formal training) will allow me to do project or “gig” work in the future until I retire.

    The one thing that concerns me about consulting is that if the client is lukewarm about me, they can just ask to have me taken off the account. As it is, I’d be replacing someone who did not work out. But I do feel like I could succeed in this job, and the working from home part is really attractive. It plays into my desire to do more learning and have less stress in my life.

    I’d love to hear from those of you who have worked for a consulting firms. How did/does it work for you? Do you feel valued? Do you feel at risk? Anything I should ask about as I vet out this opportunity? Thank you!

    1. Triplestep*

      Sorry, that should have been “Right now [Strategic Planning] is only part of what I do, not the focus”

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I do in-house corporate strategic planning and have interviewed at almost all the big name consultancies. Less stress is really not something that I’ve ever seen attached to anything strategy related – in fact almost all the strategy people I have ever known/worked with have been overachieving stress-junkies who will do the hours to respond to the latest c-suite whim or directional change. Some people learn to deal with it and/or have good clients who aren’t emailing all hours of the day or demanding petty changes because they can, for others it just doesn’t work out after a few years.

      For this opportunity I would want to know:
      1) why did the first consultant not work out (was it lack of compatibility? lack of industry understanding? Poor judgement and client management skills?)?
      2) What sort of hours are expected in this role? (note: take the response and add at least 20%, at least for the first year).
      3) Does the consultancy support work-life balance and if they do, what does that look like for a remote employee? How do they support their remote employees?
      4) What sort of support do they offer for client work (for example, lots of places may have back-office support for deck building or data analysis)?

      And from a more general sense – think about the industry the client is in and potential implications if there were to be an economic downturn in the next year or two. Consultancy services can be the first to get cut in a downturn, unless you are doing change management or downsizing that is! If that were to happen, would you be assigned to a new client or is this the only option given the remote nature of the role?

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks so much for your reply!

        Well, I HOPE the kind of strategy I’m talking about is not more stressful! I realize I was kind of vague (sometimes I worry about being “found out” here although I realize that’s unlikely.) The strategy I do as part of my job is not business strategy – it’s strategic space planning. I analyze corporate real estate to forecast space usage, growth, and opportunities for change. I also design the spaces in which people work (all kinds – not just office) and I also manage the construction process to bring those projects to fruition. And if that wasn’t enough, things that come under the umbrella of “office services” also fall to me.

        What’s happened to my job is typical for people in my field. We get hired to do one thing, and then necessity/cost cutting means we end up doing all the related things. There is no staying in ones own lane, and there’s a lot of burnout. This consulting firm has divided these different jobs into “practices” which is one reason I want to join them. I think at this point in my life I would be happiest doing the front end work – I am an architect by trade, but I find myself with a skill set that lends itself to Strategic Analysis and I’d rather do that. (I enjoy design and construction, but it’s very stressful and I’m tired of it. That’s another story …)

        Anyway, you’ve given me a lot to think about and some to ask about. I already did ask why the first person did not work out, and the answer was that she simply wanted to maintain the data and not strategize with the client over how best to use it – I DO want to do that. Also I found out that they are not cutting ties with her – they found her another role, and that bodes will for them I think.

        I asked about support, and so far have learned that there is technical support. I think I would be responsible for deck building, and I know the hours would be weird for global calls, but I would be working from home, so I hope that means I would still get to have a life, and get some sleep!

        In terms of the industry the client is in, it’s a 100 year old B2B service company, 2nd largest of it’s kind in the world. Of course they may have gotten that way by saving costs on consultants during the lean times, but in my industry I have seen more consultants stay and FTEs get cut. I’m not kidding myself that this could last forever, but I hope if I do this, I gain enough skills in the data sphere to be relevant and hireable when “not forever” happens!

        Thanks again; I really appreciate your response.

  146. Everdene*

    Afternoon All! Following on from the gift giving questions this week… Oak and I are getting married early next year. Should I say to the team in advance not to gift up/no need to buy us anything? Or does that sound presumptuous that they would plan to? (I’m most concerned about my very generously minded apprentice)

    1. Elle*

      I would wait until/unless they ask you about a registry, or you’re right it sounds a bit presumptuous. Maybe you could find a way to have an unrelated conversation with the apprentice about appropriate workplace giving, since that will be useful for them in their career in general.
      But overall, if your coworkers want to have a small event to celebrate your marriage… let them. It makes people feel good to do nice things for others. When I got married, one coworker baked a (delicious) cake and the rest chipped in for a small gift card to Target. I certainly didn’t need/want gifts, but by graciously accepting them we were all able to have a nice bonding moment.

  147. How to - Proposal*

    I am working on a proposal (contract work, 1099) that is due the end of December. This is a first for me. I am looking for ideas or suggestions for what type of high level info should be included in the proposal.
    The proposal should have 3 parts:
    -Questionnaire (for new clients to find out their general state of health, food intake, meds, health issues)
    -Brochures (should be able to use the content for the facility website also)
    -TBD (they are looking for suggestions for using tech devices or software)

    I know that I should include: My hourly rate, down payment, a date schedule for providing invoices, limit revisions of the questionnaire/brochure data to 3, include examples and ideas (in a general form)
    What else should I include to protect myself?

  148. Hermione Langstrumpf*

    Our new HR manager is incredibly good at motivating people. Wow, she’s such a positive presence.
    Probably about 25% of the people wanted to leave and have stayed so far because of her presence/ideas/actions over the past 4 months.
    What a difference it makes to have HR!
    I hope what we discussed today about my promotion, raise and work organization will all happen! Fingers crossed.

  149. AnonyMs.*

    We found out this week that our bonus goal was set impossibly high. My boss implemented a new bonus structure based on company profits (they used to be based on profits plus personal goals) and set a bar that, he said, was based on typical profits. We’re pretty short of that goal. Then someone asked how we’re doing compared to last year, and the boss said, “Oh, so much better.” Ugh. We didn’t get COL increases last year because of this new structure, so this suuuuucks.

    1. mr. brightside*

      Ugh, that sucks. Assume you won’t get a bonus next year either. And then apply the Shaalzebub principle: how long at this status quo are you willing to take?

  150. Bad Janet*

    What sort of career path can be managed if I go into a payroll processing job w/o an HR education?

    In my job search desperation, I’ve signed up with an agency. First potential job is this. I’m capable (plenty of admin / detailed processes experience). It’s a raise. If they don’t throw any red flags in the interview, I’ll take it.

    I just really need out of my current job, I really want some upward trajectory in my life. I don’t know how to get that in a field I didn’t study (and my current job is also a field I didn’t study. So I have a not-great pattern here…)

    1. gmg22*

      I have a family member who is head of payroll at her company (one of the largest in our small rural state), and she did it starting out in the payroll department about 15 years ago, and with no college coursework at all. Anecdata, I know, but I suspect that payroll in particular is more about being really good at getting the details right and troubleshooting than it is about a subject-matter-specific education — as opposed to if you were looking at a recruitment-type job or something where you needed some employment law background, etc.

    2. Carrotstick21*

      I’m in HR, and once you get to a certain size organization, they are two very divergent paths – I have zero to do with payroll, and payroll is not part of my department in any way. Payroll can be a very interesting career path for those who are both diligent and detail orientated AND can work with people of variety (e.g., not only people like themselves.) We have a great payroll team and I love working with them. I work for a global organization so together we have worked on staff solutions for things affecting team members around the world. There are certifications you should consider pursuing if that’s what you want to do, and I’d consider looking into the American payroll Association.

    3. LCL*

      Temping? Give it a try. I don’t work in the payroll group and don’t have the background, but somehow ended up doing a medium size piece of it for our group. If you have good admin and process experience, and can remember where to find things (policies and their myriad exceptions and complications) you will do fine. I have often thought payroll would be a good choice for all of the reference librarian people that write in here. The actual dollar amount is all accounting and done by appropriately trained people; the getting the hours worked in the system credited to the right people is just like trying to find something.

  151. Friend in Need*

    My manager/promoter at work found at a managerial meeting, with maybe a dozen other peers, that he had been moved to a different managerial position. He felt this was a demotion. I did literally see him discussing… something with our CEO. Not sure whom else.

    So, he seems to have left – probably quit – last Thursday. No one told me.

    On Monday I oriented 5 new hires and literally told them, this is the name of my boss, please send him any question you have about my department. Later on Monday, I sent my manager an email. The email was turned off. I asked around and the lowly receptionist had the gossip/information. I signed up to attend a job fair during work hours.

    No one mentioned to me that my manager left until yesterday, a week after it happened.

    There are no winners here.

    1. Earthwalker*

      I saw that at a previous employer. A project manager was fired and her team wasn’t told. Six weeks later one of the team members asked me, since my desk was next to hers, if I knew what was going on. I left out everything the PM had told me as she cleared out her things and just said that she wasn’t with the company anymore. “Then what are we supposed to do? Nothing is happening with the project!” I told the firing manager, who said that no one was to discuss it because it was a firing and the details are no one’s business. That’s true, but being so delicate about it that everyone has to pretend that a fired person is still on the job takes discretion too far.

    2. Kat in VA*

      Not to nitpick – but I’m going to nitpick – careful in your attitude toward the “lowly” receptionist. They see all, hear all, and know all.

      People TALK to the receptionist.

      I rely on ours to give me information I haven’t sussed out elsewhere (I’m an executive assistant) and honestly, referring to them as “lowly” is insulting.

  152. Pescadero*

    Can we please, for the love of the universe… do away with corporate buzzwords?

    Don’t tell me you want me to take “ownership”.

    I have ownership of my car –
    I got to decide if I wanted a car.
    I got to decide what car I wanted.
    I get to decide when the car gets maintenance.
    I get to decide who is allowed to use the car.
    I get to decide how the car is allowed to be used.
    I get to decide to replace the car when I want.
    I can decide I no longer want to own a car, and get rid of it.

    That is ownership.

    If you really mean “I want you to take responsibility and initiative for X” – just say that, but quit fancying up “responsibility without authority” by dressing it in a fancy suit.

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, I find that one pretty useful. Lots of people can have responsibility and authority on a project without all of them having ownership. I don’t explicitly employ the MOCHA model but it makes sense to me.

    2. Someone Else*

      There are plenty of corporate buzzwords I find vexing, but the one you’ve cited doesn’t strike me as especially “buzzy”. Lots of words have slightly different meanings in different contexts, and the “ownership” in a work context has a long and established meaning that is not identical to literal ownership of property.

  153. Grayber*

    Does anyone have any tips for negotiating a better title when you’re a part-timer?

    I was hired as a weekend receptionist for a company 3 years ago. At first it was really typical receptionist stuff- answer phones, greet clients, book appointments. But this time last year they outsourced all appointment setting, and now client interfacing is about 5% of my job. The other 95% is doing marketing materials, mailings, special tasks for our web guys and other departments, etc. Is it totally unreasonable to request a different title like “office assistant” or something? I still sit at the front desk, but it feels like “receptionist” doesn’t cover all my duties and I’d like something more cohesive to put on my resume.

    1. SB*

      I definitely think this sounds reasonable! It’s very normal to want your job title to match your actual duties. Hopefully you get an answer in the affirmative!

    2. Amanda*

      Decide what you want first! And then when you bring it up you don’t have to make your supervisor do any thinking. You’re bringing him/her solutions instead of making him/her come up with them. Then all s/he has to do is say yes.

  154. yams*

    I literally cannot even. Over the last three months I’ve increased output of a particularly troublesome family of products from about 1 millon pcs a month, to 4-5 million pcs a month. The customer wants 1 millon pcs of a number they deactivated last month, they notified me on Tuesday and they want delivery on Monday. The sales team promised it was possible and I’m literally sitting in my office crying because it’s just not possible. I can’t move programming since every item being run is critical. I just want to tell them to go away, I’m resign and leave to get a beer. I don’t know what to do :(

    1. Elle*

      Sorry, that sucks. When a problem is too big for you to handle, the best thing you can do is elevate it to the person who can. Don’t just sit here desperate dreading Monday. So go to your boss, or sales, or whatever, and guide them into realizing how impossible this is for themselves. Try just playing dumb and acting like you really would love to do this, but need their help because you aren’t sure how to make it happen on your own. “Hey SalesDude, I understand the importance of the million pieces needed by Tuesday, but I’m having trouble figuring out a way to make it work. Can you help me figure it out? You see, even if we encounter no downtime, we have these 3 orders to go, so even if I offer overtime, I can only figure out how to get 400,000 out. How should I change production priority to make this work?

    2. Kill ItWithFIre*

      The literal limitations of space and time are not your fault. This sounds like a sales screw up, not yours. Sorry, sounds like it sucks.

      In case you wanted suggestions, here’s mine – ignore if you just wanted vent! Write out why this is impossible, offer whatever solutions there are (explaining the impacts from your standpoint), then loop in people who need to make decisions. This sounds like the sales teams screw up because they didn’t check if production was possible. Someone needs to make the hard call on what is and isn’t possible and I’m guessing you have a higher up to handle that?

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Can you return this problem to sender? (The sender in this case being the salespeople who overpromised?)

      “Salesperson, I need to give you an update on Order X. I just can’t turn around an order of that size in the timeframe you promised. I can have it done by Quick-But-Reasonable Date.

      I’m sorry that I let it get to today before updating you — I was working on options to try to make it work — but unfortunately there’s just no way to do it. Let me know if I should proceed to get this done by Reasonable Date or if the customer wants to pull the order.

      Thanks,

      yams”

  155. Blech Work*

    My job has a very rigid PTO structure. Essentially, all employees with 0-5 years of service get 11 days a year. There is no separate sick or vacation time, and to add insult to injury we have to work most holidays (this is a healthcare facility). Once you make it to six years, they add on two more days. At our location of 50 employees, there are maybe 3 employees who have been here for more than five years. Burnout rate is high, many people don’t last more than a year or two, if that. I am coming up on my annual review, and I am at my wit’s end. Everyone comes in to work sick due to the lack of PTO, and we are always infecting each other. (We have many patients with compromised immune systems, so this is a HUGE problem). Hours are long, the building isn’t properly temperature-controlled, and many days we don’t have time to eat or hydrate ourselves. It’s an unhealthy environment both physically and mentally.

    For a variety of reasons, I feel “stuck” at this job for at least the next six months. (I won’t take up this whole post with the details, but essentially I have two major expenses coming up that will come close to breaking my bank. I can’t risk starting a new job, it not working out, then being unable to pay these off. I want to wait until I have made the payments prior to venturing out. Pay at my job isn’t super stellar, but it is liveable and my position seems to be secure). That being said, my one year review is coming up and I really want to ask for more time off. I know there is a fat chance I will get any additional days given that my company has such a rigid accrual rate. Does anyone have advice for negotiating for better PTO at a job which doesn’t have lots of flexibility in this area? I am about to lose my sanity. I had to go to the hospital for a health emergency because this job burnt me out so bad, which means, $1,500 in ER bills! I have coworkers who talk about frequently falling asleep at the wheel on the way home from work out of sheer exhaustion. People are quitting left and right, and the limited PTO is a contributing factor. While I would like a raise, at this point I’d honestly take a couple extra days in PTO above a raise simply because I am close to physically and mentally breaking down – as are most of my coworkers.

    (As a note, in case anyone asks, I do not have short-term disability. I’m not yet eligible for FMLA, but even if I was I most likely could not afford to take it).

  156. Nancy*

    I work with a company that has branches, but we all run separately. We have “play nice” rules that are there because sometimes our paths cross. One of the times our paths cross is when there are companies who have headquarters in our region, but have locations in other regions. The headquarters determines who owns the account, communicates with them and manages the account. The other regions come through us to get what they need. Recently, I had a colleague in another region who works with one of my headquarter accounts bypass me. He has actually been a little bit of a pain with another account I have, but my boss and I have overlooked it a bit because he hasn’t been with the company for a year yet. More recently, he asked for a report on their local numbers and I told him that there is a portal to get that information. I didn’t know that he did not have access to the portal (which should be something his team provides him), but instead of emailing me back and asking how he accesses the portal he emails another departments VP. When I get copied, I noticed that our report manager has added an excel report for him and then gave him the portal login. She was well meaning, but fairly new and we had changed some pieces of how this account numbers were done this year. When I got a chance to read the report, I knew it was wrong and immediately started looking into what had happened with my boss. In the meantime, the other guy AGAIN does not come to me about his concern around the report, NOR does he check the report on the portal (which was correct). He emails a contact at his location. She then emails my contact and I get an email. Well, it is Friday at 4pm. I let her know that I would take care of it and apologized for the confusion. My boss, at this point, is done with him bypassing us and wants to call his boss, but it would have to wait until next week.

    Monday was crazy, but I did follow -up on the report and with my boss, but we didn’t have information yet and he didn’t want me to call until we had the full story. I finally got the report fixed and we figured things out. I asked my boss if I could actually call my colleague and have this conversation with him about the numbers, but also about him bypassing us. My boss agreed and I immediately called and had to leave a voicemail. Again, at the end of the day I get a voicemail from my account contact that this guy has reached out to them AGAIN! Lucky, they called my boss and he explained the situation. After that, my boss said he would have to handle this and talk to the guys boss, that he had crossed the line too many times. I of course called my contact and made sure she was not annoyed and she let me know that she too was not able to reach him, but left him a voicemail saying he needed to check the portal.

    All that being said, I was looking forward to handling this conversation with my colleague myself. In my previous job, this would be something I could not even be trusted with and my boss would have never let me even think about talking to him. I understand and respect my boss’ request to take over. I read this blog a lot and was formulating my words for this conversation. My boss did coach me a bit, he said I was being too nice about it because I was saying things like, “In the future, I would appreciate that you don’t bypass me as the contact for this account…” He said saying appreciate was too polite.

    I’m sure I might encounter this again, any suggestions for assertive, but professional wording with a colleague to colleague conversation? (I might mention that I have been with this company 1 yr and 6 months, but I have almost 10 years of professional experience in the area).

    1. Four lights*

      Being polite with a colleague on something like this is about the tone of voice, not the words. The words need to be addressed. Don’t use “I would like” “I’d appreciate” “If you could.” because those are unclear.

      Try: “In the future requests like this need to come to me.” “You should not call X for questions like this, you need to call me.” It should be direct, clear statements. However, you don’t have to yell, or “sound mean”. Your tone can be polite and matter of fact.

      1. Nancy*

        Thank you. That’s about what my boss said. He says my southern charm is good when I need to suck up, but not great when I need a point to be made.

  157. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Apparently someone got tired of December traffic jams and chaos and decreed home office for everyone on Friday!

  158. Is anyone working in academia?*

    I have a question about paying graduate students.

    Background: I’m temporarily providing some logistical/administrative support for the folks who manage doctoral students at our small private university. Our location is about an hour from the main campus, which imposes a burden on students who choose to work at our location and have to travel back and forth, sometimes several times a week. We’re exploring ways to provide some supplemental income to these students to help defer the additional travel costs, and have buy-in from the powers-that-be — now we just have to figure out the “how.”

    Has anyone done this? We originally planned to just increase their stipend, but that was nixed by HR because they didn’t like the idea of paying different amounts to students who are ostensibly doing the same “job.” (We tried to argue that by virtue of their different location, our students are doing a different job, but no dice). We’re now thinking of paying a periodic “supplement,” which I think may work, but I’d love to have a model to base it off of if anyone’s done something like this before!

    1. AnonAcademic*

      I get a free train pass from my University as part of their transportation initiatives. Other places I’ve worked, you get a set amount monthly based on your average monthly transportation expenses, up to $130/month or so.

    3. Psyche*

      Can you offer a travel stipend? Or offer travel reimbursement where they can submit a receipt either for a bus/train pass or millage?

    4. Robin Q*

      I’m in a similar situation-we get reimbursed up to a certain amount each month but we can only use it for “green” commuting (carpool, bike, public transportation) and I think that helped them push it through under some environmental initiatives.

  159. anon for this*

    I’m not sure if this is something I have an ethical obligation to speak up about, or if I should leave it alone. I’d love input!

    I’ve posted about this situation a little before, but I was hired into a new position about a year ago. I took over a bunch of projects from an employee who had moved to a different department under questionable circumstances. She was REALLY attached to one of the projects and has essentially been trying to sabotage it so that they will give it back to her. She behaved in a really inappropriate manner to me the one time I met with her and I went to HR about it because her behavior was so egrigous. Later, going through her old files, I discovered a lot of financial misconduct within the project which I reported to my boss/dvision leadership and also the HR rep that I’d previously spoken with. I’m pretty sure this is why she’s created so much drama about this project and not any others. However, I don’t think anything happened after I reported it.

    I just got a new grandboss who was the boss of my predecessor in the position she moved to from this one (yes, really), and he had to listen to her complain about me for a year before he and I ever met. He’s kind of short with me, but I haven’t worked with him very much, and I think he really, really doesn’t want to deal with this project anymore. I just got word that the project is going to be housed under a different division after the new year and I will no longer be responsible for it, which is totally fine by me. They are going to hire someone specifically to manage it, but our division won’t be involved at all. I’m supposed to have a meeting after the new year with the new director to talk about the handoff. My question is, do I mention my predecessor’s financial misconduct to the new director? It’s already well-known that she’s going to apply for the position. I don’t want it to look like I’m bitter about losing the project (I’m really, really not!), but do I have a moral/ethical responsibility to say something?

      1. anon for this*

        Essentially, she used the project to fund her own personal side business that just “happened” to provide services that were needed (we have a pretty strict COI policy). She had been doing it for years.

        1. mr. brightside*

          Okay, that’s fireable. And if your grandboss doesn’t care that it happened, that’s a red flag about what else might be going on. This should have gotten the coworker blacklisted from your org, not have her able to be in a position to take that project over again.

          1. anon for this*

            I know, and I don’t understand how nothing happened after I reported it to HR. I’m just not sure at this point if I’ve done everything I can and should just say “not my circus, not my monkeys”, of if it’s worth bringing up again.

            1. Four lights*

              Since you’re working on the project, I think it makes sense to bring it up again to cover your butt. Just bring up the facts, hopefully in writing as well. I think your goal should be that anyone looking at the file or documentation who sees this will know that you did to and reported it to the proper people. “During X time Y work was provided by Jane’s company Z. Since this was a conflict of interest I notified boss and HR and we have since stopped using her company.”

            2. yams*

              Do you have some sort of ehtics hotline you can report this to? Or maybe a controller, internal affairs (not sure what would be the name in your company)? I know we had an issue with this a year ago and the internal control department got involved and dealt with the offenders promptly and quietly. I’m surprised something like this was let slide.

            3. mr. brightside*

              Right now, it’s your project, so it is a partially-owned circus and monkey, alas. I think you have to report this until someone takes it seriously. No, you can’t control who they hire, but you need to make sure they’re aware of what they’re doing. And document everything.

    2. mr. brightside*

      My question is, do I mention my predecessor’s financial misconduct to the new director?

      It sounds like it was directly related to the project, so I’d say yes.

    3. Elle*

      I would for sure say something. I’m concerned about the ramifications for you if/when the new person uncovers financial misconduct, the new division actually investigates, and you somehow get blamed. Don’t make a big deal about it, just do a matter of fact “When I took over the project I found some inconsistencies. I wasn’t able to resolve them, but in case it comes up, I’ve flagged for you here.”

      1. Asenath*

        Yes, you have to mention it to avoid the possibility that you might be blamed for covering it up – especially if it wasn’t investigated when you reported it. That report could get “lost”.

    4. Kathenus*

      I’m late to commenting, but in case you see this, one thing that I haven’t seen mentioned yet is to make sure that you have a written record of reporting this so that no one can say later that you didn’t, or that you didn’t give the needed details/information. Whether that’s a written report and get a copy signed as received when you hand it in for your records (I did this once for a different reason but where I needed the documentation), or putting the information into an email. I think whether or not you tell new director could go either way, but make sure that there’s written proof you’ve reported this.

  160. Justin*

    So I sort of mentioned this a few weeks ago.

    I was moved onto a project with a colleague, and I was moved into the lead role, which she isn’t happy about. (She literally told me she wasn’t a “happy camper.”)

    It’s become clear she at least doesn’t blame me for it, so that’s fine. But now I can see quite clearly why they wanted someone (who just happens to be me) in the lead role, and her issues aren’t really things I can fix.

    So, the trouble is, she doesn’t have an inside voice (which is great for when we’re training, but does not work in meetings), and she is very, very, very, very (x500) eager to show what she’s been doing, etc.

    In other words, she’s sort of a… tryhard and a showoff mixed? I can empathize with it (I was that way when I wasn’t very sure of myself professionally), but she’s also had something like a 20 year longer career and I doubt she’d take kindly to me giving advice on this. With that said, I’m plainly better at my/our job, and I suspect my main task for the next several months will be corraling her.

    Our boss told me if I had “any problems” to come to her. It’s not that bad yet (and I’m getting a dog on Sunday so will be in and out of the office for a couple weeks), but once we get to it, I’m really going to have take a lot of deep breaths. She also sort of lacks the self-awareness to notice when people aren’t positively responding to her coming up to everyone’s desk to talk at them about her thoughts on the world.

    I’m really just telling a story here. I feel bad for her (I’d be nervous as hell if I was replaced on my first solo project, too), and, not to armchair diagnose, but when I was acting that way (not as bad but still), I was definitely undiagnosed and untreated, so if that’s going on, well, I feel worse. (On the other hand, maybe she’s just a jerk? But I am trying to be charitable, because people called me annoying a lot in my decades of being a tryhard, and I don’t want her to feel how I did.)

    But my lord, when I was an unaware little pest, I was, like, 26, and she is… not. I’m glad I sought aid and have improved in many ways.

    Any tips for remaining empathetic while also needing to work on a very long two-person project? The supervisors will support me if I ask, but I’d rather try and keep this under my hat for now.

    1. Justin*

      (Not sure if school counts as work, but I’m about to pull a 4.0 in my first semester of my doctoral program and I’m proud of that, as I’ve been improving as a student from high school – where I was erratic but talented – to college – where I struggled taking classes I didn’t like until I found ones I did – to my masters – I was good – to now, so that’s cool. If school isn’t work, sorry Alison, will post tomorrow.)

    2. fposte*

      Not that she doesn’t sound annoying, because she does, but is it possible she takes up more mental space because of how you relate to her behavior personally? Sometimes the hardest behavior to shrug off is the stuff that makes us wince about ourselves. Whether that’s true or not, I think in general with somebody who takes up way too much room the goal is not to give them more in our own heads. (And ooh, new dog! Fun!)

      1. Justin*

        You’re right. It doesn’t help she just walks over to my desk to whisper her embittered thoughts about not being the lead on the project a few times a day, but I am able to ignore her existence when I’m focused. So I guess I’ll just have to focus more.

    3. LQ*

      Play the long game. And find out if there are things you can do to …”reward” that would work. (Compliments, compliments are really good and cheap ;)) I had about a year of a hellishly bad project and damn were the people on it incredibly bad to work with. So when that project finally got the axe I was thrilled. Except I was still supposed to work with these folks who made it hell. So screw it, I’m going to manage them. I’m not their boss but I can meet with them one on one to talk about how can we move in the right direction. I can try to figure out how to make them happier at work to make them less hellish to be around. (My tryhard really REALLY wanted to be recognized as a Smart guy and a Good Worker, occasional compliments (genuine!) and just listening to him made a tremendous difference.) Reward good behavior, try to develop a relationship and occasionally asking for feedback and input (and taking it and doing something with it) in a way that has eventually gotten them around (mostly) to asking for feedback for themselves and then when they take it well and do something with it thank them, call it out.

      It helps a lot if you can find something good about them at work (they care about the right stuff, they are good at the technical part, and they don’t complain about the work…much) and return to that in your head frequently. Tryhard is good at the technical stuff (they just need someone to listen to them be smart for an hour a week). Clueless cares very much about the right stuff (they just don’t understand how bad their leadership is and keeps trying to assume we work in a world of all professionals doing their jobs).

      (On the upside? Downside? They just really aren’t being managed by their management so it’s not like I’m stepping on anyone’s toes because no one else cares.)

      1. Justin*

        Yeah, I think offering measured, genuine praise will help release some tension. She’s not dumb, she just really wants the (excessive) time she spends on things to be noticed (because she doesn’t realize it’s the results that are the issue).

        I can figure that out. Thanks.

  162. saturninus*

    In my previous job as a non-exempt employee, my director would tell me to take vacation days whenever we were slow, often with only a days notice. This happened fairly often, as we ran a VERY lean operation (we weren’t allowed to order pens for the office) and I am now curious if what he was doing was permissible / law abiding.

      1. saturninus*

        Paid vacation days. The vacation days were part of my package. I wasn’t sure if you could be told to take a vacation or employees had the right to choose their vacation days.

      1. WellRed*

        No idea, but I’d bet it IS permissible since they aren’t required to give you vacay time at all. Thats crappy, though. Did you try to say, no thanks?

  163. Elle*

    I have a weird job where I spend a lot of time meeting with people who are very busy and very, very senior to me. I would say, over 50% of the time, they completely blow off meetings with me. I try to be upbeat and positive and understanding that my project is just not always their #1 concern. But… I still catch myself getting annoyed it. Any tips?

    1. mr. brightside*

      Lower your expectations. Make a game of it. “If Executive A shows up for this meeting, I’ll have chicken for dinner instead of fish. If Executive B shows up, I have to drink orange juice.”

        1. mr. brightside*

          It does help! I’ve had an epidemic of senior folks blow off meetings and all that. Eventually you get to a point where you’re pleasantly surprised if they show up.

    2. Grace Less*

      I have a similar dynamic. If you can have a productive meeting without them go ahead with it. Afterwards, circulate meeting notes to everyone, including those absent. Often, I include the “action items” in the body of the email, assuming that not everyone will read the attachment. That way no one can say that they weren’t aware of their responsibilities, decisions made, etc., and they are theoretically up-to-speed if they attend the next meeting.

  164. Works in IT*

    Boss has started a massive document every email you receive to try to justify giving you benefits to the board. I process so many emails a day and sort them into our complicated, but organized, archive folders that going through the archives at the end of the day is a time sink, but recording them as they come in is also a time sink. I desperately want to be brought into a position that offers paid time off, but this is overwhelming.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So the board is going to read all of your emails? Or do they just want a list of emails with subject headings?

      1. Works in IT*

        According to him the board wants to see statistics and numbers of how much work I do each day and whether that justifies moving me from 40 hour a week contractor to employee who gets paid time off, or at the very least renew my contract. Because seriously no one else in the department has time to conduct the mandatory training initiatives the board is pushing, if, at the very least, my contract is not renewed, it is not getting done.

          1. Works in IT*

            If they don’t renew it by January 1, I will be jobless and applying for a job with the helpdesk manager once “currently working for another department and considering her for this position would seriously wreck that department” is no longer a factor. And he knows I’m highly competent. So if nothing else it’s only three more weeks of this uncertainty. And fortunately all the non board people are happy with me.

        2. OvercastFriday*

          Why is the Board that deep into your boss’s business of human resources? Ok.. that’s done

          What he should be asking you to do – if not everyone – is a time study to see how, if the contract were not renewed who would be responsible for the mandatory training initiatives. However, if you’re a contractor, it should be very clear what you’re doing because it’s in a contract. Has that been breached? Are you doing other things outside your contract?

          Since the Board is in involved the question shouldn’t be how much work you’re doing but what you’ve accomplished with your current contract and how being a contractor is preventing you from doing things that a W-2 employee would allow you to do (such as flowing between different types of projects vs. being on one contracted project or working beyond contract requirements).

          I was hired for a traditional position, but as a contractor. I’ve clearly justified my use to the organization as the contract states what projects I’m doing and I report how much time I’ve dedicated to each project. My deliverables speak for themselves. Should they want to hire me, they know what they’re hiring me for and they know what they’d be missing if my contract weren’t renewed.

          Justifying you at this point seems like no one is paying attention to the contract or your work. How do emails support that effort?

          1. Works in IT*

            I am not an independent contractor, I technically work for a contracting agency that the employer pays and they pay me. So my job is doing whatever is needed, which at the moment is monitoring potentially malicious emails, handling requests and making sure they are approved before putting them in the system, proofreading my manager’s emails to the entire organization because his grammar leaves much to be desired, and teaching the training classes our department has recently been put in charge of. Which I just kind of fell into over the last few months because career development and also boss was doing it but he kept being double booked with meetings…

            The board is being critical of all contractors, not just me.

        3. Anonymous Educator*

          40 hours a week is a full-time job. It really sounds as if they just want to be cheap and not pay you as a full-time employee, and they just want to keep you as a contractor and make it as difficult as possible for you to “justify” being an employee with paid time off.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I may be dumb so if this is not reasonable, I apologize.

      Can you tally up your sent folder at the end of the day? Is that sufficient? Maybe you’re filing that too, I’m just a novice in a one person department kind of world. I file the emails that come in but my sent folder not at all since the email chain is enough in that sense.

      1. Works in IT*

        My sent emails are nothing compared to the deluge of incoming emails i am reading and sorting. Policy is if it’s non malicious spam the reporter doesn’t get a reply it just gets filed. But everything has to be read.

        1. valentine*

          If you only have to report the number of emails, can you create subfolders for past days so the count is current? If they like flash: print them and turn in a massive binder.

  165. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    Maybe this is a silly question, but — in my old job, we didn’t always have translators handy, so I learned enough Spanish to get by (and get addicted to a telenovela or two). In my new job, I am rarely called upon to use Spanish, but I have reason to believe that there’s a huge need for people who can speak Vietnamese. I can already tell it’s not going to be the easiest language to “get by” in, but I’m wondering if I should keep working on deepening my Spanish fluency or adapt to the needs of the people who put a roof over my head?

    1. Holly*

      I think that really depends on you and what you want out of your job! If you work with a large volume of Vietnamese speaking people, there’s definitely a benefit to trying to learn key words to make sure people feel welcome, but it’s quite a lot to just start learning a new language without thinking about the benefit to you (if you want to stay in your position a long time, if it would help with a promotion, etc.) I wouldn’t give up a language you’re already developing learning, especially Spanish, if you enjoy learning it!

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      I would give Vietnamese basics a good try, but work on Spanish more, if you’re in the US. Vietnamese is a tonal language that may require some true immersion for you to really pick up well, and you’re already on the road to learning Spanish more fully, so I wouldn’t let that go. If you’re not especially motivated to learn Vietnamese (no media or music that interests you in that language) then it might be double hard to pick up even basics of.

  166. Anon Accountant*

    My coworker had taken issue with me being single and she and her cousin (also works here) decided they’ll set me up with their cousin, Frank. It wasn’t a “you have so much in common; might become friends” type of setup. It was mocking and Lucinda said “now you won’t be single! Hey Jane, wouldn’t that be great. She won’t be single anymore”.

    I told them in zero uncertain terms to stop. Their department is next to mine (cubical area, several depts are seated together). They started up again and I said “stop now. Please don’t bring this up. Not interested”. This was in the middle of my dept, many people heard. I was embarrassed and almost felt ashamed of being single. Why do people act like this?

    1. Four lights*

      People are dopes. There’s nothing wrong with being single, and their outrageous behavior is the reason the conversation had to happen.

    2. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      I HATE THIS. I’m ace, in a region where single females are considered rare (ugh) commodity, and it’s a similar feeling to having my cat bring me a nice, yummy half-dead mouse… good on yer for standing up to it!

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Thanks! It felt good to stand up for myself and be assertive. I wish people didn’t have such a stigma against single people who are happy without a partner.

  167. Leslie Knope*

    Are there certain industries where you can generally expect to get time off during the holidays?

    I worked in retail in college, then worked in a hospital, and after my stint there I worked in event management for a few years. Our main event was in January so I worked a lot during the holidays. I recently switched to sports which I love, but we also are so insanely busy right now!

    I don’t plan on leaving my current job any time soon and overall it’s great, but someday I would like to work for a company that gives ample time off for Christmas! Just not sure where to look. :)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      General manufacturing, construction and anything that’s not 24/7 or holiday geared.

      I’ve always had long breaks. We used to do 2 weeks in December.

    2. fposte*

      Education, somewhere/sometimes. For years at my university it was just that people took PTO during that time and nothing happened, but we’ve actually been given some days off in the last few years.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I’d say education. Generally speaking, in school jobs, I’ve gotten either Christmas to New Year’s off or almost all of it off, even when I wasn’t a teacher.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Most white collar office jobs have off over the holidays, provided it is a somewhat larger company that provides better benefits. That covers most industries except retail, healthcare, service/police/security, etc. that need to be open during holidays to serve the public.

      I work in marketing/communications and have worked across many industries, including chemicals, pharma, consumer goods, printing, technology, manufacturing, etc. It’s been very rare to work holidays unless you’re on some kind of deadline or have an emergency PR situation. But like you, I have had to work over the holidays for trade shows in January (though not on Thanksgiving, Christmas or NY’s day–mainly I just couldn’t take any additional time off).
      You do seem to be having the bad luck of landing in industries with heavy holiday coverage: retail, sports, events!

    8. Aphrodite*

      Higher education. I think we might get more time off than many other colleges but education is always good. Here we have 16 holidays (including Christmas Eve through New Year’s Day), vacation ranging from 12 days to 24 days per day (that can be accumulated up to two years’ worth), and 12 days of sick leave per year (that can accumulate without limit).

  168. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Funny moment this week.

    I’m looking for a new apartment. So filled out an application that requires employment verification. They didn’t call, they skimmed the website and sent an email to our general box.

    I had someone hustle into my office and ask if I’m looking for a new job.

    It’s funny because we’re not a place that we’re retaliated against for looking or leaving. No fear! But we’re tight knit and there’s some discontent as is usual for companies with a mix bag of personalities. I’m the happiest I’ve been in 5 years at work. So I just laughed and said that “no, I like my job. I’m just moving, frigging rent hikes!”

    I’m relieved we at least talk here. It’s not just hushed whispers.

    Anyone else ever have a silly mix up that you laugh about?

    1. Red Reader*

      I worked in Seattle and was in the second semester of an online degree program through a North Carolina university. A coworker that I rarely interacted with heard me mention something about the university and disseminated over three floors and two departments within about an hour the juicy tidbit that I was quitting to move to North Carolina. -a-, no, -b- HELL no, and -c- what?? I found out when my boss came up to me looking like she was about to yarf (we were understaffed by over 50% at the time) going “Uh, is there something I should know?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        LOL I had a similar reaction when someone mentioned enrolling in an out of state school awhile back. Doh!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Just had one yesterday, actually! I was meeting a colleague for lunch, that I haven’t seen in person in 5+ years, and even that was just for a few hours during a very busy time. I also have difficulty remembering faces sometimes and I literally could not picture him. I had to look him up on LinkedIn to remember what he looked like, but his photo wasn’t very good. I did note that based on graduation date, he is 10-15 years younger than me.

      I showed up to lunch and the restaurant is mostly empty, only one table with a man sitting at it. The man looks like he recognizes me, so I said “Colleague?” He nods and I kind of rushed over with my hand out and said “Wow, Colleague, it’s been a long time!” He said “Um, my name is Bob.” And that’s when I realize he is at least 10-15 years older than me, so then I was thoroughly confused! Just then the guy who is clearly Colleague walks up to greet me – he’d just been in the restroom and Bob was in fact his guest at lunch too (in hindsight Bob’s nod meant this is Colleague’s table, not I am Colleague). So I tried to make a joke of it and say “Gosh it *has* been a really long time…” Fortunately we all recovered and I was able to get some rapport going with Bob too, although I’m sure he thought I was a complete idiot at first and they probably got a good laugh on their ride home.

      To be fair, I wouldn’t have recognized Colleague even if he’d been alone, I just would have done the same assumption that man-sitting-alone was the guy I was looking for.

      The really weird thing was, during the conversation it turns out that Bob and I met briefly at my work around the same time frame as I last met up with Colleague, but under completely different circumstances. Neither of us recognized the other from that either.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My acronym abuse almost cost me a college friend. I was living in a town with the initials EPA. I wrote to an alumni group with my address given with initials. The ZIP code spells it all out anyway. Unfortunately one marching band manager thought I was working for the federal agency EPA. She thought I was putting down her skills, and I couldn’t understand why she was asking a history major for help networking for a science job.
      Margaritas for each other when we figured that out!

  169. NotFeelinIt*

    I am at the point of really hating my job. I am currently looking else where because I know I want out.

    I am at a dead end in my position. There is no opportunity for growth & I definitely would never want my managers job.

    The culture is terrible & my co-workers are miserable crybaby’s who have to cc yours & their managers on every email because they are trying to throw you under the bus, so basically they are big time A-Holes.

    How do you make it through this time before you can secure another job?

    I just feel like my soul has been sucked out of me & I am feeling the weight of all of the BS.

    I just want to quit & be free of it all.

    1. Amanda*

      You answered your own question. You just want to quit and be free of it all. Right? You don’t have to quit right now. But knowing that you are going to quit soon will make it seem temporary.

  170. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, December is here and I’m officially ending my job hunt for this year. I like the project I’m currently at, I love my team, but working with really limited resources and being super underpaid made me lose all respect I had for our CEO. I can’t believe it’s that hard to upgrade our outdated workstations, or give us a pay rise, or small perks like home office after the first year in the company. People in other projects got tired and left for greener pastures, but no matter how hard I tried, I’m still here and I’m started to fear I’m not good enough to get a job elsewhere.

    1. Anna Held*

      (Internet hugs) So much of a job search is dependent on luck or your ability to sell yourself, not just your skills. Sometimes it takes time, and oh yes it’s depressing.

      Someone on here once gave the advice to do one thing every week toward your job search or to make yourself more employable. Make it a steady, no-pressure part of your life rather, sort of like a hobby in terms of how much headspace it takes, as opposed to the stress of a job search. It makes sense to me to take a month off at a time when nothing’s likely to open up anyway, then start again with a new approach to keep yourself from going crazy. Your time will come!

  171. Beachlover*

    Has anyone here has employed at outdoor or beach related occupations such as beach attendants, lifeguards, pool atendants, etc ?

    1. Four lights*

      I used to work at a Girl Scout camp. Not sure if that experience would be useful. Do you have a question about working outside?

    3. Reba*

      Not self, but some relatives were outdoor professionals for a long time. They worked at camps and with Outward Bound (they also love to travel). Now one of them is working at a business that has both retail and summertime water activities–nice option to be employed year-round. There seem to be a good number of opportunities for outdoor educators in higher education these days, so a certification of some kind could be helpful.

    4. Imtheone*

      I have a cousin who wanted to switch to working in outdoor recreation. He ended up working in marketing for an outdoor recreation company. He had some experience in the same area in a more traditional business field. He liked the work, but found the very small town to be too small for him, long term.

  172. Overeducated*

    I’m so irritated right now. Last week our boss put them in charge of coordinating the draft of an annual report we have to put out every year on one aspect of regulatory compliance. The compliance itself is something that my Coworker B and I have been involved with regularly and increasingly as the people who used to do it have left for other positions, and right now I’m dealing with a year-long documentation backlog a couple of them left, which is a huge effort and frankly not much fun. I suspect boss put Coworker A on the report so they would learn more about this compliance, and because Coworker B and I are so busy with the actual practice. Well, Coworker A created a Google doc for the report, I filled in information about what I’ve been doing the last year, and Coworker B is going to fill in the other information; honestly, that’s 90% of the report right there, and Coworker A just needs to suggest edits and figure out how to format it and get it reviewed.

    Coworker A just told me, about half an hour ago, “Well, I guess I’ll be the expert on this compliance now.” Really? REALLY?! If I’d had the right answer in the moment, I would have said something like “Yeah, Coworker B and I have gotten really in depth with it in the last few months, it’s good that you’ll be getting some experience as well,” but I was just gobsmacked.

    The REALLY annoying thing is that Coworker A may get all the credit! When they reported progress this week they just said “We have Section 1 done,” and not “Overeducated filled in all the material for Section 1,” so that’s how it may go. TGIF.

  173. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Interesting scam I found out about this week…

    I got an email from an “employee” asking to update their direct deposit. I then went to chat with her. She looked at me like I had grown a second head. We then realized it was a phishing scam. Very interesting and I’m concerned a company without enough internal check points would easily do that all by email.

    Any one in HR seen this? It reminds me of the Yellow Pages and Toner sales calls that still oddly happen but less frequently.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve seen emails pretending to be a higher up (head of school, CFO, president) asking the business office or accounts payable to be transfer money to pay a vendor or something, and it’s not an actual vendor the school/company uses, and there isn’t really an invoice for it.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I think they’re skimming LinkedIn. I’ve never had a company with any LinkedIn presence until now! Now it’s very limited but it’s more than before so that’s why it’s so new to me!

        They guessed my email address and had a dumby email for the staffer. I noticed after looking again post-chat.

        1. Works in IT*

          LinkedIn, and the Exactis data breach exposed a LOT of email addresses that are now on The List.

          1. Natalie*

            The FB leak as well – I was in the bigger group that had only their username, email address, and phone number exposed, but I’ve gotten a couple of targeted scam emails since then. (I use a fake last name on Facebook that I don’t use anywhere else, so it’s extremely obvious where the info came from.)

  174. Birch*

    Argh, I always get to these late! Hazards of being in a different time zone.

    So I’d just be interested to hear how people deal with day-to-day anxiety and discomfort. Basically I love the actual work of my job, but my boss is.. not great at managing, and the whole team is afraid of her. She’s blown up a couple of times (never to me) and sends what we all think are extremely passive aggressive emails about how we’re not meeting deadlines and she doesn’t trust anyone to do the work properly. I just heard the whole story of the person in my position before me. She apparently stayed less than a year but couldn’t handle our boss and went to HR without telling boss. HR contacted both of them and boss was very angry and called my predecessor names. This has happened with at least one other former team member within the year before I came. I’ve only been here eight months and I’m losing my mind. I read far into everything my boss says to me and panic if it sounds like she’s not happy with something I’ve done, but if she says “good work” I don’t believe it. The rest of the team jokes that there’s no point in anything we do because inevitably boss will tell us it’s not good and tell us to start over or go a completely different direction for a project. If I actually get what my boss has promised out of this job (it’s a fixed term contract), it will be very good for my career and I can’t really afford to leave. And boss hasn’t done anything so bad that we feel like we can go to the higher-ups.

    Tl;dr: how do you deal with job anxiety when it doesn’t sound “that bad” and you don’t really have any actionable evidence but it’s affecting your life?

    1. fposte*

      You go to counseling, for one. For two, I’d say you back away from the circle of “Boss is awful!” conversations. I know that’s hard, but they really do make things worse. And the third would be take as much control as you can about judging your own job–ID your targets, note when they’re met, talk to your boss about possible concerns if there seem to be any. That way you have more to balance her opinion out and more power in the situation generally.

      It won’t make a bad thing great, but it might help in getting you through a tough patch.

      1. Birch*

        Thanks! Yeah, I’m seeking therapy and hoping I’ll finally find something that sticks.

        I think the dynamic might shift as time goes along. The team is only just now actually voicing concerns about her to each other. It’s mostly that the others come to me and say “am I crazy or was this really rude/passive aggressive/unreasonable?” I will try to tamp down on any maladaptive complaining though. We’re all making a ton of documentation but I worry that boss doesn’t trust anyone so she doesn’t believe we’re telling the truth about how we spend our time (there’s no clocking in–it’s flexible hours).

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      my boss is.. not great at managing, and the whole team is afraid of her.
      She’s blown up a couple of times
      sends what we all think are extremely passive aggressive emails about how we’re not meeting deadlines and she doesn’t trust anyone to do the work properly.
      boss was very angry and called my predecessor names.
      I’ve only been here eight months and I’m losing my mind.
      The rest of the team jokes that there’s no point in anything we do because inevitably boss will tell us it’s not good and tell us to start over or go a completely different direction for a project

      I’m looking at all of these statements, and I’m wondering how, even with putting it in quotation marks, you can say it doesn’t sound “that bad”.

      It sounds extremely bad and toxic. Just because it isn’t illegal and there isn’t anything actionable doesn’t mean it isn’t extremely toxic.

      If I actually get what my boss has promised out of this job (it’s a fixed term contract), it will be very good for my career

      Do you know if your predecessor got what your boss has promised? And how long is the fixed-term contract? You’ve been there 8 months. How much longer do you have to put up with this to get out of it what you need to get out?

      1. Birch*

        It’s just hard to tell from our perspective because it ends up sounding like whining, if that makes sense? Like it’s very common in my field to have projects that change tack halfway through or don’t pan out, and tough deadlines, etc. It’s just the way those things are handled that gets to me/us.

        I don’t think my predecessor got much out of it, but I don’t know the details, and I can’t say what would have happened if she had stayed. I’m here for another year and change.

    3. IrishEm*

      I worked very hard to do, but once I got the swing of it it helped:

      Don’t get emotionally involved in Manager’s shenanigans. This includes avoiding Boss-is-Awful talk like fposte said, this also means taking compliments and insults about work differently than intended. No effusive responses to “good work!” no doldrums when Manager is on the rampage, just keeping steady. I also echo fposte in recommending documenting your work, what gets done, boss’s comments, if there’s someone else you can talk to at boss’s level (maybe in another department/on a different project), ask for impartial feedback on what you’re doing *if you have a relationship with them*. It might help to get some fresh eyes on your work, even if it’s just to ask if it’s as good or bad as boss says. YMMV with this, and it does depend on your relationships with other managers in the office and possibly Manager’s relationships, too (like, this sounds obvious but it wasn’t to me in my early retail years, but Don’t Talk To Manager’s Nemesis if it’s possible it might get back to Manager, if Manager has made enemies all around DO NOT TRY THIS IT WILL NOT END WELL)

      Also, remembering that it’s about her, not you, helped me so much with the bully who had plausible deniability.

      *hugs if you want them* I don’t envy you your situation. Keep a timer on your calendar, and keep your cv polished, even send off some applications if there’s some jobs going that would be i line with your career goals. You don’t *have* to jump ship, but it might help to bear in mind that this is not the only place you can do this job.

  175. Vic tower*

    Just curious, is long service leave a common bonus where you work? And if so, what form does it take?

    In my job you get it after ten years and it’s three months at full pay or six at half pay.

    Also, what would you do/have you done with your LSL?

    1. IrishEm*

      I saw that a lot as a perk in the travel industry, when I was looking, it sounds amazing. I haven’t noticed it in any of the other industries here while I was looking, but it might be a reward that doesn’t get promoted to newcomers. You probably have to level up quite a bit to get it.

      I’d go Interrailing around Europe if I got the chance :)

    2. NACSACJACK*

      I wish! If I got a LSL, I’d take a trip around the countryside and travel to faraway destinations to learn new technology.

  176. dovadbawie*

    So last week Wednesday we found out the company was closing, effective this week. I’ve applied for unemployment [the worst web experience I’ve ever had], updated my resume & portfolio, & have started applying for places that look like a reasonable fit. Though if anyone knows of a need for a print production artist in the greater Charlotte NC area, I’m totally open.

    Very surreal. Everyone was taken by surprise. The CEO only got word of the bank’s decision to shut us down so quickly on Black Friday. But even under such terrible circumstances, my coworkers & I have been so supportive of each other, & my manager has offered to be a reference. I would work for him again in a heartbeat; best manager I’ve ever had.

  177. IrishEm*

    So I interviewed on Tuesday and I got the offer an hour later, and today is day 2 of training, and I really like the new job! (Slightly irritated that the family is treating this like IrishEm’s first real job because dammit retail and optics are real jobs!)

    I’m also taking on board and using the feedback from my last job and being more mindful about the negative things and trying to use the skills I picked up to improve my work here. The training seems very in-depth and with a lot of support, which is making me feel much more positive and a lot less stressed than I was in my last job.

    Like, I loved the last place, really loved it despite the retail side of it, but it was super stressful, on really low wages, with a lot of staff retention issues (that should have been a red flag, but oh well) and really tough hours. I have a much longer commute now (it went from five mins on foot to an hour and a half on public transport) but I have SO MUCH MORE ENERGY! So much.

    Still not sure it’s an industry I love, but right now the whole thing of community, proper wages and greater job security has me feeling a lot happier than I was in retail. I feel like Pinocchio, I’m a real human being, now, lol.

    And I just realised, it was a month ago today that I was let go, and I did not in any way anticipate getting anything this good this side of Christmas/New Year. I took a major knock to my confidence losing the last job but I feel so much more confident and competent even though all the systems are new to me. I was in a very dark place, and I still don’t know what it was they liked about me, but my HR rep told me that my interviewers are tough and hard to impress, so I feel more secure in the knowledge that I did *something* right and confident in my own skills :)

  178. KT*

    I’m currently looking for a new job in the hopes of moving into a managerial position. I’ve never managed people before but I have managed a few large scale projects, I have 7+ years of relevant experience, and my boss has told me on multiple occasions that she thinks I would make an excellent manager. I’ve also established myself as a highly skilled and respected employee in my organization. I’m a regular reader of this site, and I’m actively seeking out other management-related resources to help me if/when I am asked to interview (already had a phone interview this week). So why do I still feel massively unprepared to take on a middle management position that is well within my career path and skill set? Anyone have good suggestions for psyching yourself up for these kinds of challenges?

    4. Clementine*

      Someone as thoughtful as you will do way better than the vast majority of managers reported about here :).
      I tend to think in terms of taking a quick shortcut to being completely outstanding, but I find it’s useful to just focus on the basics of being competent when you start a new role. You’re capable and motivated, and you know how to ask questions and seek help. Just remind yourself of that.

  179. what now*

    Rant & advice request!

    The cubicle across from mine was open, so a new employee is now stationed there. On his first day, he introduced himself and asked me where I was from. I told him I lived in this city for XX years and before I could tell him which city in America I was from, he interrupted me and said “You’re from [foreign country] right? You’re [insert nationality here] right?” This happens to me all the time, so I was just going to correct him, but he.would.not.stop. He continued to say “I can totally tell! It’s in the eyes! I bet everyone guesses you’re [insert nationality here] because they can’t tell [insert race here] apart…” He went on to tell me “funny” stories about what [insert race here] students at his high school did (he is about 20 years older than I am).

    That excruciating and one-sided conversation lasted for about 15 minutes before I just blurted “Hey sorry, nice to meet you, but I have work I need to do!” and turned around. The next few conversations I had with him all had to do with my race. This is especially frustrating because he seems to talk about hobbies/interests with other coworkers, but he always wants to redirect to talking about my “culture” when speaking to me.

    Since then I’ve been aggressively ignoring him (not initiating any conversation, actively avoiding him, not looking in his direction ever). A coworker told me that he complained that I was making him feel unwelcomed.

    What am I supposed to do? I really don’t want to enact the emotional labor of explaining to him why this makes me uncomfortable. I’m relatively new to the workforce (this place is my first job post-grad) and I’ve been getting along with my other coworkers so far. He hasn’t said anything blatantly racist so I don’t see the need to go to HR?

    1. IrishEm*

      It sounds to me like he has been racially insensitive, and it would be worth saying it to *someone* higher up even if you don’t want to escalate it to HR. Maybe flag it with your manager before he tries to poison your reputation, and point out that you don’t have time to feel his feelings for him ensure his emotional wellbeing is met. You made overtures but he focused on your ethnicity and that made you uncomfortable, his discomfort is not more important than yours.

      Also, you know this, but he doesn’t, but you are in no way obliged to be BFFs with the person in the cubicle across the way. You are not obligated to be anything other than civil to him. He can feel welcomed or not that’s his thing not yours. Are you from the welcome committee? No.

      1. valentine*

        There’s a Bingo card for this. What he said is blatantly racist and he literally talked over you to praise himself and bang on about stereotypes. Gross. And then he turned it around and accused you of being unwelcoming! You can say the same to him or just that your race/ethnicity/culture isn’t an appropriate subject.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not the best at these things, but if he does it again, why not just ask him?
      “Fergus, why are all your overtures of friendship seemingly focused on my ethnicity and culture? It’s a little off-putting. How about we talk about something else like [insert topic]?”

      I don’t think this needs to go to HR, yet. From what you’ve stated, it seems like he’s expressing some kind of clueless and misplaced interest? And, I don’t know, maybe he is truly interested in the culture and it’s harmless… and isn’t realizing it crosses into inappropriate with those kinds of weird and awkward comments. If he seems sort of ok otherwise, you know, I might give someone the three strike rule and he’s had one strike.

      1. Earthwalker*

        I used to be fascinated with the experiences of others who come from different cultures and I would ask. It used to start a lot of interesting conversations. These days that’s considered horribly rude. (Maybe it always was and I just happened to meet a lot of kind and forbearing people.) Do say something to him before escalating, won’t you? He may be as well meaningly clueless as I have been.

        1. Reba*

          It really, really depends on how you approach the conversations, I think. (i.e. not the way this guy did!)

          What now, this guy is kind of an ass, but it’s not beyond salvaging. I do think you need to clear the air with him, or try to, before taking it up the chain. The near-silent treatment has clearly been noticed, but he doesn’t know why you’re doing it, so it’s ineffective. And it doesn’t make you look good, either, unfortunately. I like MissDisplaced’s script.

          Did Coworker speak up for you when Dude complained? Is there someone else in the office who could break into these conversations that Dude would likely listen to?

          Good luck, please come back and tell us how it goes!

      2. LilySparrow*

        Or you could be a little more forceful and say, “Fergus, maybe you haven’t noticed, but you keep bringing up my race like it’s the only thing you can think of to talk to me about.”

        If he’s a decent but clueless person he will be mortified, apologize, and change gears. If he’s not then he’ll pretend he doesn’t understand the problem, act like you should be grateful for his interest, or some form of the “but I was only…” dance.

        I don’t think it’s your responsibility to clear the air, but if he makes another similar overture, or if he asks what the problem is, you have little to lose by being direct, either with a question or a statement. He already made it awkward. You’re uncomfortable, he’s uncomfortable. Might as well lance that boil so it can drain.

    3. matcha123*

      I am a multiracial minority who is constantly tagged as other racial minority groups I have no connection to, so I really feel your annoyance. Especially with the “Where are you from? (I know you must not be American, because Americans are only black or white and you obviously do not fall into either of those categories, so I’m going to try to ask what seems like an innocent question, but is actually a way for me to determine what category to place you into so I can later let you know that I know any issues you may have stem from your weird cultural upbringing)”

      Since it seems like he went to a coworker about you, I would employ the same tactic and tell the coworker who approached you, or another coworker you feel comfortable with, that his obsession with your background makes you incredibly uncomfortable and you’d rather not talk to him about it.

      I wish people who do this would understand that this question gets asked of us countless times and repeating the same thing over and over to someone who really only approached us because we look different is so tiring. And we can’t give a rude or blunt answer because then we become the mean minority who hates a kind white person who was just trying to get to know more about our culture. Let’s just say that if we have something we wanted to share with you, we’d do it.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Dude, I’m from Toledo. Stop going on about (WrongCountry) all the time. That’s not even where my ancestors are from, and everyone else knows it, so you’re making yourself look foolish.

      Where ARE they from? Good grief, they left East Elbonia so long ago one of my greats served in the US Civil War. How about we get back to work?

  180. Freelance hell*

    I’m in an industry with many hacks. That right there should tip you off. It bugs me, and it’s bad for our clients.

    But what grates my nerves are those that will do the work for free or way below market rate. I mean, either you’re an amateur (still don’t do it for free; amateurs can be talented), you’re not that good and praying no one will notice, or you’re well off and don’t need the money. EITHER WAY, YOU’RE HURTING THE INDUSTRY.

    It’s obvious I’m a writer, right? Do you see this type of thing in other professions? I’m curious how it works in other industries.

    1. green tea*

      My friends who do freelance video editing, graphic design, writing, etc basically all creative things complain about how thanks to stuff like Fiverr clients always try to use it as a bargaining tool like “Oh why should I pay you [fair compensation] when I can just get it done by someone else on Fiverr for less than half of what you’re asking????”

      It sucks. :/

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It’s horrible. Why do people think creative skills have little value or that “anyone” can do?
      I mean, do they act the say way with their doctor, accountant, dentist, attorney and other degreed professionals?

      When I lived in California, many people in the building trades were also treated thusly, as people would think they could just “get the Mexicans to do it” for $10/hour or something. Grrrr!

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Look up the “Clients from Hell” account on Twitter. Also “For Exposure.” You’ll laugh AND cry.

    4. LilySparrow*

      The freelance marketplaces have normalized paying by the word, as if you were buying a bucket of nails. Which makes sense if all you want is a quantity of words.

      If you want *the right* words, you need to pay more.

      Unfortunately, good writing seems magical to people. They have no concept of how it works or how much work it takes. They think it’s like typing dictation, and the only reason they can’t do it themselves is because they’re too busy.

    5. matcha123*

      I am a translator and it is the same here. Companies and regular people assume that translation is literally replacing one word with another. They also assume that Google Translate is a great translation tool.
      I do translation on the side, but mainly for friends who I give low rates to. These days I’ve been wondering if I should charge my friends rates that would be more typical of what a freelancer would charge.
      Another thing is that many companies want to see evidence of your work and won’t hire you without a large profile. I think that leads to people taking jobs for free or at low rates just so they can put something on their LinkedIn page.

      Your frustrations are shared by many!

    6. Ann O.*

      Or alternate option: you’re trying to build a career and you have no good mentor/sponsor, so you don’t know market rate and/or don’t know how to negotiate effectively to get it. I am not a writer, but I see that a lot in performance arts.

  181. agmat*

    Office holiday time…yay…

    This will be our third holiday party as a team and my second time saying “no” to pitching in for the boss’s gift. The precedent was set the first year and I was somehow wrangled into being the organizer that time. I was very adamant that people did not have to pitch in. Now the job is rotating and it looks like I’ll have to tell everyone in rotation in the upcoming years “no, I don’t gift up” even though I organized it once. Blah.

    We’re already doing a potluck and white elephant. That’s enough.

  182. Anon anony*

    My coworker keeps dumping work on me. She spends hours on tasks that should only take 30-45 minutes, yet drags it out. Then says that she is too busy to work and passes it onto me. She and boss are friends, so she gets away with it. I’m at my breaking point because I feel so overwhelmed. What should I do?

    1. Psyche*

      First, you could try pushing it back. If she says she is too busy to do it, tell her so are you and list off what you are actively working on.

      If that doesn’t work, go to your boss and tell her that you have too much on your plate to take on coworkers work and ask her if she would like something dropped/back burner-ed or if there is another solution.

    2. fposte*

      You have limited choices here, I’m afraid. I can’t tell if you’ve spoken to your boss directly or not, but if you haven’t, it’s worth doing that first even if she and the boss are friends. “Can you help me clarify the work prioritization? I can get the tasks originally assigned to me done by the target date, but then Jane sends me her overflow that needs a short turnaround and I can’t do both. How would you like me to prioritize in those situations?”

      If the answer is “Just do it all by the deadline,” then unfortunately the best change you can make is a new job.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Next time coworker tries to push work onto you, preempt by saying you have too much to do and were just about to ask her to take on some of your work. “Sorry, I guess we’re both super busy but I can’t take on any more work.” There are many strategies for looking “busy” if you need some obvious clues that you are already at capacity. (Shuffling paper, sighing, keeping a focused look on your face, that sort of thing.)

      And definitely clue the boss in that you’re not being unhelpful, you’re simply already at capacity with your own work and cannot take on your coworker’s share of work. Because if they’re buddies, I would bet that coworker is spinning it that you won’t help and things aren’t getting done because of that.

  183. Sybil Carpenter*

    I’m very confused about my company’s group insurance plan.

    We recently received a company wide email saying that our premiums would be going up (a max of $30) because the deductions will now be calculated based on our salaries. I’ve never heard of this manner of calculating insurance deductions.

    Prior to receiving this email, I’d been trying to figure out why our premiums are already so high — I pay just over $200 per month for my (admittedly excellent) health plan and extended benefits — when my employer says they pay 50%. Is it normal for health benefits to cost a total of over $400/month including employer and employee contributions? (Canadian for reference)

    The benefits are great but I just want to understand why it is so expensive (and why no one at my company can seem to explain this to me without shrugging and directing me to someone else).

    1. Sybil Carpenter*

      For comparison, my health plan deductions were about $80/month for near exact coverage at my previous employer.

    2. LGC*

      So…one of my employees typed so hard he broke his keyboard this week. (Like, he popped the arrow key off and it wouldn’t snap back in.)

      He does data entry. I used to supervise a team of 50+ people all doing data entry all day long. He’s the first I can remember that actually WRECKED A KEYBOARD BECAUSE HE TYPED TOO HARD.

      I did remind him to type less forcefully going forward. He’s still banging away on his new keyboard (which is at least quieter than the old one). I’m trying to not worry that he’ll break this one as well.

      (If you’re wondering why I know so much about this: we sit next to each other. It was like working in a construction site.)

    3. Enough*

      Husband’s monthly insurance premium is a percentage of salary. So same percentage for all but different $ amounts. As far as over all costs if depends on usage and size of the group that is being insured. The more people who make claims the higher the premiums. The higher the claim cost the higher the premiums. The smaller the group one or two large claims can put everything out of whack My son worked for one company where there were a few employees who had ongoing medical issues and the premium was very, very high. And since you could opt out it made things worse.

  184. Decima Dewey*

    My library system got a grant to train every employee over the next three years. Since it was going to be mandatory, I signed up to get it over with, so I’m in the second cohort. Our first training was this past Tuesday.

    The good news is that we didn’t go around the room to introduce ourselves. The bad news is that we spent a whole lot of the first session agreeing on rules for discussions. What’s said in the room stays in the room (Grandboss is sitting at the next table), respect others, all that stuff. Some people, who already do a great job at what the training’s about. weren’t happy when they were told they had to take it anyway.

    There are four sessions in all and a project we have to work on at our jobs after the workshops are done. We have to keep track of the time we spend doing the homework assignments and our project via a weekly Google Form that the person who badgered everyone into signing up sends out every Friday morning, due by COB Monday.

    Oh, and next week I get to pick up Narcan following the training in using it that was held at my branch.

    1. Argh!*

      That sounds very rational and even-handed. The people who think they know everything about everything are usually the ones who really do have to attend. At the very least they will know what to take for granted in coworkers.

  185. hermit crab*

    I know this is late in the day but — I have been asked to submit an abstract for a conference that is (wait for it) held on a boat. Yes, a boat. One that is in motion, sailing around the NYC harbor. It more or less makes sense, given the topic of the conference, but still. Who holds a conference on a boat?!?

    Complicating matters is that I am extremely susceptible to motion sickness. I have felt seasick on everything from cruise ships to rowboats; I’m one of those people who don’t even like to eat at waterfront restaurants because seeing all the boats bobbing up and down outside the window makes me queasy. I am already feeling a little nervous about this situation. At the same time, though, this is a apparently a great conference and it would be pretty awesome to be able to say that I gave a presentation in the middle of New York harbor. And I think I could probably manage. With the right medication. If the weather is good that day. Probably.

    My boss really wants me to go to the conference, and if my abstract isn’t accepted she’ll want me to attend anyway. She’s great and I know if I bring up my motion sickness she’d back right off, but I don’t know if I want to say anything.

    I’ll take advice if you have it, but mostly I want to share with you all that there exists a conference that is held on a freakin’ boat.

    1. Psyche*

      I’m sorry. That really sucks. It might be worth it if your abstract is accepted, but I would probably push back against attending otherwise.

    2. Argh!*

      There’s a tour boat that goes around the island that is very stable. I remember being on it as a tourist and not having any motion sickness. If you’re in an interior room, it may not be as bad as you fear.

    3. KR*

      Do you have affordable health care? Could you ask for prescription strength nausea medicine from your doctor? I’m sorry that sucks so bad. I also get extremely motion sick on anything from planes to wobbly chairs and my job requires a lot of travel. I’ve had to adjust by making sure I have wiggle room after plane rides and having to be pushy about sitting in front seats of cars or even driving if I’m feeling sick (even if someone senior to me is driving lol).

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Take a look at the link in my username.

      Even though the harbor isn’t normally choppy and those boats are pretty big, if you are susceptible like you describe, I suggest treating the potential as if you are sailing in 8 foot swells on a 35′ Bermuda rig.

      Also, if you are at all willing to put yourself through this more than once, I’d also suggest trying out all of the cures/precautions on boats where you know you can get to throw up if needed over at least a month period prior to actually going to the conference. 1, you’ll get to see which or which combo work best for you and, 2, you’ll get to see how you can deal with the situation.

      Otherwise, be kind to yourself and don’t even consider this. The feelings and the dehydration that come with motion sickness and then the resulting headache is not worth it.

      (And this is from someone who loves being out on the water but see no reason to punish someone for not wanting to put up with that. And, btw, there is NO ONE, not a single sailor, who is completely immune from sea sickness. We have all just different thresholds and we’ve got different strategies. I’ve reached a point where I tied myself to a line — aside from the fact I had an immersion suit — and threw up over the side and kept working. No shame in that.)

    5. jack*

      My cousin had a conference on a boat recently, albeit a boat that is a permanently docked, massive cruise liner that now functions as a hotel. But still technically a boat!

  186. Fed Up Fed*

    Anyone here work in federal hiring? I’ve been applying for jobs like crazy on USAJobs and been “Referred” to at least a dozen in the past few months, but haven’t heard anything from the hiring managers. I’m already a federal worker, just looking to change agencies basically, but it’s proving way more difficult than I thought it would be! Anyway, just wondering if this is a bad time of year to be looking, or if it could be something wrong with my applications. Let me know if you might have any insight!

    1. Argh!*

      They could be waiting for a firm budget to be passed. Doesn’t Congress have to hold a special session next week just to pass a short-term Continuing Resolution?

    2. Not All*

      It is SO hard to say what is happening for you. Part of it is the time of year…HR offices are as short-staffed as anyone this time of year with use or lose and their #1 priority is processing all the retirement paperwork for people trying to go Jan 3. There are a lot more of those this year than ever before, at least in the agencies I work in/have good friends in.

      Another factor that may be hurting you is that you’re trying to change agencies. Quite a few are prioritizing internal hires because they are worried about budget reductions in this administration. (I know that’s why I wasn’t selected the last 2 I made it to interview stage on…I was able to talk off the record with people I knew in those offices.)

      On the upside, there are likely to be a crapload of jobs hitting Jan/Feb/March. Gotta admit that hope is the only thing saving my sanity right now!

      If you have a coworker you trust who has been on a lot of hiring panels you could ask them to look at your packet to be safe. One of the things that I’m running into is the transition from narrative style applications to bullet style seems to be happening at different speeds in different agencies (and even different regions within a given agency) so it’s a bit of a crap shoot which style a given hiring official is going to prefer. So far what I’m seeing is the lower the grade, the more likely the hiring official is to prefer the bullet style but I have no idea how true that is across the board.

      Good luck to all of us!!!!

      1. Fed Up Fed*

        Thanks so much for your reply! I do hope you’re right about the surge of jobs in the new year. I’ll definitely keep my eyes open and try to find someone to look over my applications to make sure I’m filling them out correctly. And yes, good luck to us all who are stumbling through this federal process together!

  187. Blargh*

    LOL keep re-posting those jobs you won’t hire me for. Bahahahahaha!

    Also, it’s probably a good thing I wasn’t in an office this morning, because when I watched the Avengers: Endgame trailer, I screamed out loud. :)

  188. Brogrammer*

    I know this is late, so if I gotta I’ll ask again next week, but figured it couldn’t hurt to put this out there. I’m hoping to help a friend break out of a crappy employment cycle that he seems to have gotten stuck in. It goes like this:

    He interviews for a job and is clear upfront that he can work a full 40 hours, but is unable to work overtime due to health reasons. The hiring manager assures him that the position doesn’t require overtime. The first few months of the job go well; he learns his role and, because he’s diligent and conscientious, starts getting more responsibilities.

    This is where things go downhill. Eventually he gets assigned so much work that it’s impossible to complete it all without working overtime. He asks for help prioritizing or to get assistance on some of his tasks and his boss is no help.

    He starts working overtime, which aggravates his health issues, and his performance drops. Eventually he either quits because he can’t take it anymore or gets fired for missing deadlines. This has happened three times in the four years I’ve known him. He’s asked me for help but I don’t know where to start. Can any of you awesome people offer some tips on how to do better next time?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Are his bosses telling him to work overtime, or is he doing it voluntarily? Most places I’ve worked, you have to have overtime approved (unless he’s salaried).

      If it were me, I’d just not do overtime. And I’d also get that bit about not working more than 40 hours in writing at the very beginning, in the offer letter. It might be that he can negotiate it as an accommodation. If they won’t do it, proceed with caution.

      1. Brogrammer*

        He tried that at his last job and just got fired for missing deadlines. Overtime was approved and officially it was voluntary, but in practice it was mandatory. Example conversation with his boss that he relayed to me went like this:

        Boss: I need A and B done today.
        Him: I won’t be able to get both done today, which one should I prioritize?
        Boss: They’re both important, find a way to get both done.
        Him: Can anyone help me? I can’t get both done today.
        Boss: No, everyone else is too busy.

        The place was a nightmare and he’s glad to be out of there, but once again he’s out of a job and the more times this happens, the worse it looks on his resume.

          1. Brogrammer*

            Most of his work history is hospitality or service. He has been trying to transition to general office admin work (and thought he’d succeeded with his last job before the same cycle played out again).

            His job before this one blatantly broke the law. He absolutely had grounds to report them to the labor board and sue them, but he was just so happy to be out of there.

            As far as I can tell, the main problem is he’s been poor all his life and has very little to fall back on if he loses a job. Employers can smell that and work him into the ground, breaking the law in various ways, because they know they can hurt him far more than he can hurt them.

            Wow, that’s bleak. Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

        2. Gumby*

          They actually refused to give him an accommodation? “Health reasons” sounds like ADA would come into things at some point.

          The only thing I can think of is to not just be clear in the interviews, but somewhere get it in writing when they say it’s not a problem. But also, maybe do even more in the interview process – like ask people who will be his peers how often they work more than 40 hours, etc. Don’t just take one interviewer’s word for it.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Are his health reasons covered under the ADA? If so, next time he gets a job, he needs to go to hr and ask for an accommodation.

      Maybe he would be better suited to be a contractor, where he sets his own hours.

  189. Graceful exits*

    Wow I’m very late this week. So I bit the bullet and told my boss I need to leave because of health reasons (current job is one where you are expected to be very responsive to donors and colleagues and it’s regularly 50 hours a week; doctors are recommending less stress). We will be working on exit plan next week. Does anyone have stories of this being done well and how it was messaged? I do want to say goodbye to internal and external folks but also don’t want it to get teary. Thanks!

  190. bookends*

    I’m having to go through a bunch of old job applications at work today. I stumbled across one from 1978 that asks for:
    – name and occupation of husband or wife
    – marital status
    – number and ages of children
    – height
    – weight

    I’m in my mid-20s, so I’ve heard of this but never seen it in the wild, and I’m a little stunned! I can’t imagine telling someone how much I weigh and what my spouse does for a living when applying for a job.

    1. Anna Held*

      I saw one recently that asked for all of that but height and weight! Mine, however, also wanted to know about your religious experiences. Oh, and also your social security number. It was for a religious organization, and the whole application focused on your religious experience and family, with only two questions at the bottom of the form related to the job itself. It was….strange. I didn’t apply.

      The sad part is, the org was related to multiple religions, so it wasn’t for a fundamentalist sect or something. I know they support non-religious community members, which was part of the job. I suspect that it was cluelessness on the part of some board member or pastor who was older and had been asked those sorts of questions for his job.

  191. froodle*

    I am so burned out on my job right now.

    My team is supposed to be four people. This year we’ve had two people out for extended periods of time due to ongoing health/personal issues.

    I ‘ve done my best to cover what I could, keep things moving along, and although it was hard and draining I managed because it was temporary.

    Except now two of these people – a chronic underperformed and someone whose personality is most tactfully described as challenging – are being moved on to other departments and me and the one remaining coworker are being expected to absorb this four person workload in perpetuity.

    And the one remaining co-worker has an ongoing health issue that means they’re on reduced hours, so essentially there’s one person in the office full time covering four people, and that person is me.

    I’m getting so much hassle and pushback and backbiting from other departments because I can’t do four peoples work as fast as four people would, and people are getting so offended because I can’t immediately drop the five things I’m juggling and give them my full undivided attention the moment they decide they have to get an answer for their non urgent query that could just as easily go to the group inbox so that I could manage my workload.

    I called in sick today because after asking four people to please put their query in an email as I was swamped and the only one in the office – which they could see, as they were literally at my desk harassing me and could see five empty desks around me – and getting interrupted four times while trying to answer one complicated query that covered seventeen different schools, I was a hundred percent done.

    I spent the day in bed, just trying to catch up on the sleep I missed because I was crying and stressing out all Thursday night. I’m so exhausted and so sick of the selfishness and stupidity of these assholes.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Oh no!

      SO glad you called out. Seems like exhaustion is the theme of the week. Hope your weekend is good.

    3. Gumby*

      Sometimes a well placed sick day can make clear to certain people how valuable you are and then they will be so happy to have you back that it’s like they have had personality transplants. I can only hope that is your experience.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      When you find the energy (and I agree, take several sick/vacation days if you can do so!), I would take this up with management ASAP. Their cheapness or slowness in staffing back up shouldn’t result in your breakdown because of all this pressure. I think Alison has some scripts for this kind of thing, and the gist is usually laying out the problem (4 FTE workload), why it’s untenable (you are one person), what the current situation is (lots of negative reactions from internal customers), and asking what the near-future solution is.

      Basically unless they say we will provide temp support starting now and will be hiring X additional staff by some reasonable near-future date, and then actually follow through, you need to get out of there.

      In the meantime, if you can (and I know it’s easier said than done!), pare your workload back down to what you can get done in 40-45 hours (or whatever is normal) and to the extent you can, ignore the backlog and the backlash. Not getting all of it done is not your fault, no matter who throws blame your way. NO ONE can do 4 people’s worth of work in a reasonable workday, and no one is served if you end up having to take sick days due to all the stress. The saying around our office is that we wouldn’t get the help we needed until we started failing. But honestly, it’s not failing if you’re being asked to do the impossible, it’s showing what is possible and how far off the situation is from what they want, with the obvious solution of “staff to the work you have, not the budget you want.”

  192. Cat Herder*

    Update from last week – I was able to negotiate a better offer at the not evil job, so I told the linkedin stalker company that I accepted another offer, and filled out their ‘totally anonymous” *cough* survey to let them know I found the process sketchy.

  193. MyDevon*

    Im looking into going back to school in spring for medical billing and coding. At the end of the certificate i will be eligible to take the CCA exam. I live in a large metro area with a lot of medical facilities.

    My main goal is a career with a better work life balance. Currently im a retail manager in a toxic environment and my life is not my own anymore. Any advice as far as education goals? Any other biller and coders, is there something you wish someone would have told you in the beginning. Thanks everyone!

    1. ..Kat..*

      What is the graduation rate of the program you are going to? What percentage of graduates find local employment in this field? How much debt will you accumulate? What is the range of pay that graduates receive in this field?

      Can you google this job and (something like) US Labor Bureau to find out the prospects now and in the future?

      Good luck.

    2. Red Reader*

      Internships. Many internships. It is REALLY EFFING HARD to find a position without experience, even if you have your certification. Also, for my coding teams, a CCA isn’t enough, we require a CCS or higher from AHIMA or CPC or higher from AAPC. I manage a team of outpatient coders for the largest hospital network in Indiana.

  194. His Grace*

    I got promoted at my job back in July after almost 2.5 years, but in October, the position was eliminated. And managemwnt had been tight lipped about it. What do I do?

    3. Audiophile*

      I’m sorry.
      Absolutely start job hunting now. Are you still working? Do you have an idea of when your last day will be? Any details on a severance package?

      My company did a small round of layoffs in August. But I’m expecting more in the next few weeks/months.

  195. Rick*

    I get that this is an entitled gripe to make. But I’ve been getting a bunch of LinkedIn notes from recruiters that go “Hey Rick, see that you’re not looking right now, but I have a really fantastic opportunity I’d like to run by you.”

    Yes, that’s right. I deliberately put it on LinkedIn that I’m not looking for a new job. I stayed at my last two jobs for under a year, and I really lucked out with where I am now. I’ve also been at my current job for under a year, so I’m aware of my situation. I’m not gonna do anything to endanger it!

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      One great answer is “I’m not looking, but former co-worker. Let me put her in touch with you.”

  196. Bryce*

    I took and failed a personality test for an application today, and I’m curious if anyone has concrete knowledge on how those are scored? There’s a lot of conflicting information online because it’s just people guessing after the fact. I’m not talking outright deception, but things like picking the extreme answers vs the middling ones (slightly vs strongly agree) or questions about flexibility (one person said that a question about working weekends would get flagged if you were willing because “they assume nobody wants to work weekends so you must be lying”). If a question restates the wording in a way that changes the meaning (“how do you evaluate your ability to X” vs “how do others evaluate your ability to X”) do you go for consistency or honesty?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t have a personality either. I always flunk these things. I read that some people will just not make out okay with these tests but I have forgotten what the author’s rationale was. I think it had something to do with over thinking the questions.

      I took one just before my wedding.
      Do I trust police officers?
      Is bring a pencil home from work stealing?
      I answered yes to both and lost the job. They should have given me the test before they gave me the job. My boss even went as far as saying I could not be fired if I failed. And then he fired me after the test.

      The testing company ended up in hot water. The control group for the test was a group of white males. The court had a field day. The company was ordered to stop using that test.
      Back in those days they were called integrity tests. Now they call them personality tests but the questions don’t seem that different. “Who would you save from a burning building if you could only save one? An old person or a baby?”
      Com’ on. REALLY? (I made that question up, but the questions are on the same par of being ridiculous.)
      So I took a personality test for a company a while ago. The test giver told me they could not tell me the results. I said, “Well how do I know if I should check on my application here or not?” (Retail, totally acceptable to keep stoning them.) She said “Good question. I don’t know.” I never went back. I ended up working for a different store in the same chain. They were slow to start the personality tests, so I did not have to take it there. Finally they started giving the tests. They had a problem where NO one passed the test. This is because they had the WRONG answer key. They went through weeks and weeks worth of applicants before they figured it out. Everyone thought it was very funny. (????)

      I have watched others talk about this on AAM. The best answers to me are from the people who said that they withdraw their application rather than deal with the insanity.

      1. Bryce*

        I think my main disappointment (aside from not getting a job when I need a job) is that the second part of the USPS test looked interesting (scanning addresses for errors, and then sorting them into districts by address first with a list and then by memory), but if you don’t pass the personality test they don’t let you do that part. Even if I wouldn’t be eligible for a job, I was curious how I’d do on that because it feels like it plays to my strengths.

  197. The New Wanderer*

    I found out the hard way that someone in my office that I already knew was a Loud Talker, is also a Close Talker. (“Seinfeld” expression based on Judge Reinhold’s character, someone who stands within your personal bubble to have a normal conversation because their personal bubble is way smaller, does it to everyone and no creeper vibe at all) I kept having to fight the urge to back up because the couple of times I did, he edged forward too, and we would have ended up waltzing across the wide open office space.

    He is a really smart, well-respected guy and I’ll be working with him more often in the future, but Close + Loud is not a great combo! I’ll just have to make sure it’s in a setting where we’re both sitting down.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you like science fiction, see if you can get your hands on Janet Kagan’s “Hellspark” because the plot twists involving body language might really amuse you right now.
      It was a real-world help for me when I wound up working with someone whose country also has a very close conversation distance.

      1. valentine*

        Close is creepy. Loud and close and is happy to close the space is creepy. Waltz across the space. Let it be awkward. Hold an arm out when you do, if you think he won’t touch you.

    2. nonegiven*

      A long time ago, DH had an acquaintance like that. He thought maybe the guy had bad vision and had never been tested, but he still didn’t like it. It was not just inside his bubble, the guy would get right in his face.

      One day he reached up, grabbed the guy by his ears, and kissed him on the mouth. The guy made sure to stay out of his reach after that.

  198. Me*

    I know it’s late on this thread but I have a phone interview using webex thursday. I know it can be done with a phone, tablet, or laptop.

    I assume laptop produces the most controlled video image while the phone has the advantage of being a phone in case there are tech issues – I am in the high mountains of West Virginia!

    My other issue is where to do this. It’s at 5/45 my time so my car will be an icebox. One of my work sites will be empty but I do feel dicey doing it there. Home options are at the one table we have with Christmas tree in the background. I have 2 roommates. One will help, one hates me and there is nowhere outside the apartment to go.

    What is the best arrangement/location?

    1. Utoh!*

      Can you get out to your car early to heat it up before the interview? Is there an office you can lock in the work site that will be empty? Can helpful roommate get hateful roommate out of the house during the interview?

      That’s all I got. Good luck with the interview!

    1. Me*

      The college library probably does- tomorrow i’ll see what non students can do there but the work site is probably the best!

      Where do people come on phone vs laptop for video interviews?

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Which has a better camera? Also, if you use the phone, have a bracket you can put it into so it doesn’t move around. (Or prop it up on a non-skid surface.)

  200. Mary*

    I’m confused at what counts as a reference/who I need to let know I’m using them as a reference.

    I’m applying to a job that requires me to list all my old employers and give their contact info (which I believe is typical). It also asks me to list and give three references (and it uses that term here) who aren’t previous employers.

    I contacted those three non-employer references and got their permission, but do I also need to contact every previous employer I’ve had and let them know I listed them as an employer and that they might be contacted? If so, can I wait until after I’ve had the interview (that way I can ask the place I’m applying this question)?

    1. Sam Foster*

      References are different than employment verification. A prospective employer may call employers listed on your resume but generally only for verification of employment. References on the other hand are those who can speak directly to you as a person, preferably you as a coworker or direct report. In any case, personal or professional, references should be notified when one reaches that point in the interview cycle. Depending on number and types of jobs, you might need to share details and prep information for each job with a prospective reference call.

      1. Mary*

        Thanks for the reply! So to clarify, I won’t need to contact my previous employers that I’m listing them under employment history?

        My one concern is that the job specified that for my references, they didn’t want me to list a former employer. This implies to me that they’d maybe still want to contact an employer to ask about my work ethic, but they’d contact my reference to ask about my personality? It’s also a bit frustrating because while the people I’ve listed as references like me, some of my employers have glowing things to say about me, so if I could choose I’d want them to contact those former employers.

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