open thread – January 11-12, 2019

by Alison Green on January 11, 2019

Do you remember the person who wrote out “I QUIT” in cod, haddock, and tilapia? A photo of the incident has been obtained!

Also, in late-breaking news, two photos of the ducks from this morning’s post have also been obtained.

I don’t think there’s anything to talk about after that, but it’s still the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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{ 1,796 comments }

{ 1,796 comments… read them below }

  1. Anon Going for a Promotion – Update*

    Hi all! I wrote in another open thread a few weeks ago looking for advice on negotiating my salary for a promotion at my public university. I signed my papers yesterday, so I am here to update.

    Negotiation went like this: in my old position I make $49,000. Boss had offered me $55,000 for this new manager role. I asked for a day to think about it. I used our public salary database to pull some average salaries across campus for certain types of positions. I came back to my boss, rattled off those numbers, reminded him that I just finished my Masters, and asked for $61,000. He said he would get back to me. The next day (end of day, not really a long wait but it felt like it), boss came back to me, said he had run his own numbers on averages across campus and that his were lower than mine. I brought up my excel with numbers to compare, turns out the differences were mostly from how we were pulling numbers. But it didn’t matter too much, because in the same meeting, my boss offered me $58,000 AND said they would back-date my effective start date so that I’m eligible for the merit increase pool, which means my salary would go up again in July!

    So I got a $9,000 promotion! I’m very happy and excited to start in my new role, where I am sure I will be using all my AAM knowledge. Thanks to Alison and you guys for the advice!

    2. The Tin Man*

      Congratulations and I think it’s cool how your boss did hear you out and you both looked at how you grabbed your numbers. And back-dated the effective date!

    4. GoodDawn*

      That’s great! I’m about to enter this stage of negotations and was wondering the best way to handle it. (Company gives standard 5% to everyone, but I deserve/want more.) This is a perfect solution!

    7. twig*

      As a fellow university worker: Congratulations!! Good job working the system and data available to you!

    13. MissDisplaced*

      This is how we do it….
      So happy for you. Believe me, this stuff does get easier, thought it’s never easy.

    15. merp*

      Oh man, it’s really wonderful to read about these things happening at universities. I just found out I’m ineligible for merit because although I’ve been here a year, they set the cut-off a few months before that. Kinda bummed about it, and there’s probably nothing I can do in my own situation, but it’s nice to hear things are sometimes possible!

    16. Rosie The Rager*

      Anon, congratulations on successfully negotiating a promotion with a $9,000 raise.

      It’s always wonderful to read posts about people succeeding in securing positions with higher levels of responsibility and pay. Thanks for taking time to share with the AAM community!

    17. Doc in a Box*

      Congrats! That’s the #1 sign of a good boss, to be open to salary negotiation and willing to think creatively about how to get you to where you would like.

      (I am still bitter about a negotiation where I found publicly available salary data, as you did, and the department chair called the numbers a lie and then berated me for several minutes for daring to discuss “dirty words like salary” — that’s the actual phrase he used. That job has been posted since 2014 and still hasn’t been filled, hmm I wonder why.)

  2. blueberrypie*

    I’m a student in a program that has assigned me a mentor in my intended field. We’ve had two meetings so far, and he is great – has a lot of experience and good insight. He seemed to intend to meet me monthly, but I asked for every two months instead, which he seemed happy to accommodate. My question is – I have a meeting with him in a week, but I don’t know what to talk about! I know it’s my responsibility to drive meetings with him, but we’ve covered a lot of ground in our previous meetings and honestly as a student not that much has changed for me in 4 months. Any suggestions? Should I cancel the meeting if I have nothing to ask?

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      You could ask him if there’s anything he’s found students may not know to ask about/to plan well ahead on? Sometimes the problem is not knowing what you don’t know!

      1. AnonEMoose*

        This is an excellent thing to ask! One of the challenges I’ve run into when training people is the questions they don’t know enough to ask, but it’s so fundamental to me that I don’t think to articulate it. It’s an important knowledge gap.

        You could also ask him about common mistakes people entering the field make. Things to look out for (both in terms of opportunities and mistakes). What skills you may particularly want to develop.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Could you update him or talk about projects or papers you’ve done? Share some professional development/articles you’ve read and ask his opinion? Perhaps others in your program may have some ideas about what they’ve talked about with their mentors and you can pick their brains.

    3. Karen from Finance*

      I like RabbitRabbit’s suggestion.

      Maybe you can also go through a couple of the most salient experiences you’ve had in the last few months and ask for his point of view? Might not be a specific question but more of a “I think I handled this well but do you think I could have done anything better?” type of thing.

    4. MeganTea*

      Don’t cancel! This is definitely a relationship you want to keep investing in.
      Does your mentor ever do any hiring? Maybe ask him for some general advice from what he’s seem from his side. What are some common issues he sees, both in materials and in applicants’ qualifications?
      Also, are there skills that you could start working on now that would give you an edge once you enter the job market and are competing with all your fellow new grads? Is there anything your mentor wishes he started working on earlier?
      Have you asked about professional organizations for your field?
      Also, think back through your last 4 months. Is there anything that came up — in class, in assignments, whatever — that would be valuable to get a “real world” perspective on?

    5. LaDeeDa*

      Don’t cancel! Here are a few suggestions:
      *What is something you wish you had known when you were first starting your career?
      *What was your career path- how did you get here?
      *People always talk about needing to get “buy-in” I get the concept, but can you give me an example of HOW you did it for a particular project?
      You can also ask to role play a scenario- an interview, performance review, difficult conversation, being assertive…
      I would also look at job postings for the job you want to have when finishing your program and make sure you understand what everything is/means– and ask his advice about what you can do to make sure you are ready for such a job.
      Good luck!

      1. OhNo*

        Definitely a good idea about the job postings. Even if you can only find high-level ones, you can bring it in and ask, “What classes do you think would prepare me best for a job like this? What do you think the career progression would look like?”

      2. Doodle*

        Start keeping a notebook or online doc to record ideas, topics, questions to bring up with your mentor as you think of them. Don’t worry if they are big enough or important enough to ask — you may not be able to judge that accurately! plus even small things can get the conversation going and get your mentor to think of other things you need to know and do.

        I also encourage you to think about what your goals are for working with your mentor — goals overall — and that will help you set goals and an agenda for each meeting.

        And a couple things to ask about in your meetings: who would he recommend you talk to about X or Y? are there talks or presentations that you could/should attend? anyone’s class to sit in on (if that’s pertinent)? anyone to job shadow (if that’s pertinent)?

    6. epi*

      Definitely don’t cancel! As a student there is lots you can probably learn from this person, you may just not realize you can or should ask it.

      Sometimes an assigned mentor turns into a real mentor– someone you always want to turn to for advice, and who becomes a friend with time. Other times, they are more like a pretty good boss, nice to have but you will click with others more.

      Spend some time just getting to know each other if there are no specific agenda items you need advice on. That will let your mentor hear what you might need, but didn’t know to ask about. A good mentor will introduce you to more great people, and if they know your interests they will do a much better job (as well as feel more connected to you and motivated to help). Talk about roles within your industry that appeal to you, and ask if your impression of them is correct. Are there skills that are really in demand right now, that you could pick up now while you are taking classes? What about internships and entry level jobs– who treats young employees well, who is a consistent pipeline to bigger and better things?

      I would focus less on action items in these meetings, and more on your developing identity as a professional. You can also just chat! Did you go to a cool seminar recently, finish a project, or read an interesting article?

      Finally you can set the stage by emailing a little ahead of time. Update him on concrete achievements so he can make any mental connections before you meet. Then see which of them he brings up, and where the conversation goes.

    7. M. Albertine*

      You’ve asked him how he keeps up on current issues in the field, correct? Journals, news sources, blogs, etc? As you keep tabs on those resources, take note of developments, relate them to your coursework, see if they can spark discussion.

    9. blueberrypie*

      thanks for all the suggestions! this is really helpful and assures me that I won’t be wasting his time.

    11. tangerineRose*

      How about asking your mentor what things he wished he’d learned that this type of program doesn’t cover or doesn’t cover thoroughly?

  3. BirthdayBlues*

    Hey everyone! I posted last week about office birthdays. After coordinating every birthday in our office, I was rightfully annoyed when my own birthday came and went without recognition. Check last week’s open thread for details – it’s the first post.

    I’m happy to say, like so many aspects of resolving office issues, a talk with my manager led to success. While I’m not totally sure what the new birthday card system will be, he assured me that from here on out I am off birthday card duty. Many people rightfully assumed I am a woman, and I carefully brought up the aspect of young women regularly being assigned party planning, kitchen cleaning, note taking, etc. as these are also issues in my office. Alison’s language from a previous post really helped me articulate in a non-accusatory manner. My manager seemed embarrassed as it was clear he had never considered this perspective, yet it was so obvious when I brought it up. I was able to kill a couple birds with one stone via this conversation. Yay! Go me! Haha..

    My own birthday remains unrecognized in the office, but that’s okay. I am a 20-something and my friends and I celebrated plenty. Thanks everyone who weighed in last weekend!

    4. Green Goose*

      The exact same thing happened to me at my office, my birthday was three months ago and I never got anything. We actually have so many people in our office and additionally, people travel a lot for work so there are too many cards, and then the cards don’t always get signed by a lot of people.

      Our solution is to do a birthday month party (we will get a cake or cupcakes) and write the birthday month employee’s names on a whiteboard to celebrate. I think it’ll be easier than the card thing.

      1. Teal*

        I’ve always found the card thing silly anyway…. I’m curious whether there’s anyone who really appreciates their birthday card in this system. I know for me, signing card after card for people I don’t know or like made my own card pretty worthless.

    6. Bunny Girl*

      I’m glad you had a great birthday celebration with your friends!

      Can I just say I’m so happy that you, and other people that have written in, are fighting against that stereotype of having women in the office taking over the party-planning, kitchen cleaning, and other roles like that? I’ve noticed that so many times in offices and it’s super frustrating! Good for you for mentioning it to your boss.

      1. BirthdayBlues*

        Thank you! After some reflection, I realized that it was the gender roles that were really getting to me, but the birthday cards were the perfect opportunity to bring it up. Things are moving in the right direction!

        1. BirthdayBlues*

          It IS really hard to start that conversation, but once it was initialized it was easy to get my manager to see my side of things. He also thanked me profusely for speaking up.

          For those who are in a similar boat regarding gender roles in your office, you may earn valuable kudos for raising the issue. Coming off non-accusatory is essential. Also it benefits men too, I interact with employees who I never would before because of the bday cards. I have a stronger, more friendly rapport with many in the office.

          1. It's A Bird, It's A Plane, It's SuperAnon*

            This is a great point. I took on a lot of volunteer work when I first started (planning happy hours, group events, annual charity drives). I’ve since stopped doing a lot of them because my workload has increased and my enthusiasm is shot, but I had a chance to work with a lot of different managers in a very friendly setting so they had a good opinion of me from the start. This doesn’t mean that women should continue to do them if they do not want to, but I definitely talk up the benefits of being involved with all new hires when they start.

      3. 2 Cents*

        I did the same thing at my office regarding answering the phone/covering the front desk. Only women were assigned to do it, despite our company being pretty evenly split. And it wasn’t just “oh, all the women doing this are in junior roles.” Nope. I wanted off the duty (and I’m not in a junior role and haven’t been for years), and I made my complaint twofold: only women had to do it and is this really how you want middle to senior staff members spending their billable hours? The next week, I was off the rotation. No men have done it, to my knowledge, but at least I brought it to someone’s attention.

    8. Is pumpkin a vegetable?*

      I’m in the same boat. This year I turn 50 – I couldn’t bear the thought of such a milestone being missed, so I will be out of the country. I won’t even notice they’ve missed it. :)

    10. designbot*

      This is fantastic, and I’m especially pleased with your boss’s reaction to the gender roles talk.

    11. Liz*

      My office does a joint birthday party every two months where every birthday from the past two months is recognized (or not, if the person opts out). It’s a GREAT system and I highly recommend it.

    12. Lucille2*

      Same thing happened to me many jobs ago. I was the office birthday celebration planner and my birthday came and went unnoticed. I’ve never volunteered for that role again. Also, I’ve found there are legitimately some people who prefer their birthdays go unnoticed at work.

  4. Tara S.*

    Does anybody have suggestions about how to best learn to talk to an API? The last couple times I tried I ended up quitting out of frustration when I couldn’t get Postman to do anything. I keep thinking of ways were it would be useful to know how to talk to APIs, but can’t seem to figure it out on my own.

      1. Autumnheart*

        API: Application Program Interface – a set of functions and procedures allowing the creation of applications that access the features or data of an operating system, application, or other service.

        Basically the thing that lets other software use the same back-end as your software. One example would be “Log in with Facebook”.

    2. ISuckAtUserNames*

      IME, it depends on the API and the documentation of same. Good ones have documentation for setup in Postman (the Adobe Analytics admin API is good about this, even for someone with not-great technical knowledge, like myself).

      Each API is different, so it’s hard to say in a general sense, but the APIs documentation would be the place to start, along with any user forums/stack overflow, if it’s a big enough API for that.

    3. Emoji Pizza Unicorn*

      Get someone who knows what they are doing to “pair program” with you.

      You can even do this remotely over Slack or Zoom. You can also try posting your question on Stack Overflow.

      Good luck!

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Yes, start with the documentation. Then begin working with the most basic call and see if you can make it work, then (if this applies) start adding all the parameters, one by one, that let you fine tune your results.

    5. gecko*

      What are you trying to do? If you’re trying to learn about using commercial APIs (like Github, Google) in the abstract, you’re probably better off doing some structured learning with Lynda/LinkedIn Learning, Codeacademy, Youtube, etc. If you’re trying to use a specific API for a specific project, it can be best to just jump right in. Postman is a nice way to test stuff out, but don’t worry–it’s not the be-all and end-all.

    6. Maggie May*

      postman can be a bit heavy handed sometimes. I find it useful to make a curl request first (sometimes APIs will format those for you) then copy that in to postman.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      Is there some kind of community you can get help from? I’ve found when official documentation is lacking (in existence or in clarity), I can usually get good help from a relevant online community (mailing list, online forums, Slack… or even just Stack Overflow).

      I like to search GitHub, too.

      Or search for name of API example.

    8. Another Teapot Maker*

      Zapier has a great online intro to APIs class. I’d start there and then look for some with great examples to keep learning on your own.

    9. Bored IT Guy*

      The only API I’ve really worked with in Postman is the ServiceNow API, which is horribly documented. (That being said, if that’s the API you’re working with, and you want to create an incident, I’ve got that figured out … anything else is beyond my current experience)

    10. Little Bean*

      Haha, in my community, API means Asian/Pacific Islander so I was really curious about where this post was going to go…

    11. Admin of Sys*

      Definitely depends on the api for how difficult / easy it is to interact with, but it may be helpful to just start feeding in curl or powershell api calls to test things out, rather than trying to work through code. That way, you can see exactly what the system is responding with, errors or otherwise, rather than having to manage the code.

    13. Tara R.*

      Depends on what the API is– generally I’d start with whatever the simplest call they have available is (usually a basic GET) and take a look at the format of the data you get back.

  5. Accidental Emergency*

    I accidentally called 911 from a fax machine and the police came to my work. Please tell me I’m not the only one that’s done this!

    To call outside my office, you dial 9 and then 1 for a USA based number. However you don’t need to do that for the fax machine. I forgot this and dialed 91 and then another 1 because the fax I was sending was to a 1-800 number. I typed the rest of the number and sent the fax pages through. The sound on our fax is terrible so I could barely hear the ringing and the 911 operator asking who needed help; I just heard staticky beeps. I realized I’d messed up the number, though not that I dialed 911, so I ended the call and started over. I sent the correct fax and walked away.

    An hour or two later, a woman from HR came over with a fax page in hand. The police had shown up to our doors to do a check on the unanswered 911. Talking to HR, they realized the number was a fax number and found the failed connection page the fax had spit out after I left, with my name on it.

    I was horrified and very apologetic. The HR woman had a good laugh at my expense and reassured me that I wasn’t in trouble. She joked that it was a good test of emergency response since our address can be difficult to locate but the police found it right away. I felt so bad but also very relieved that they knew it was an accident.

    1. Sunflower*

      I wonder almost every day while offices use a 9 to dial-out. I fear a lot that I will do it so I’m sure you aren’t the first one!!

        3. I'm A Little Teapot*

          A previous job they did switch from 9 to 8 and the reason was specifically given as “too many mess-ups calling 1-800 numbers”. The police told the company to change or get fined.

      2. Make Editing Great Again*

        I am in constant fear that I will do this by accident. Glad to know I’m not alone!

    2. Lulu*

      I used to work in an office where the number to get an outside line was changed from 9 to 8 for exactly this reason. More than one person accidentally called 911. It’s not just you, and I feel like it’s a common enough problem that nobody should be using 9 as their outside line number. It’s such an easy mistake to make.

    3. Four lights*

      Haven’t done it (yet). But I know it has definitely happened in our office before. I think it’s a common issue because you have to dial 9 to get an outside line.

    4. MuseumChick*

      Oh no! It wasn’t 911 but several years ago I was working on a historic site. Part of my compensation was staying in an apartment they had one site. One day for lunch I decided to go up to my apartment a fry some eyes. I ended up setting off the fire alarm for the whole building, all the visitors had to evacuate and we had to wait for the (THREE) fire trucks to show up for the alarm to be turned off.

      It was one of the most embarrassing day of my career. All my coworkers, boss, the volunteers and even the visitors thought it was hilarious and there were no hard feelings with anyone.

    5. Never*

      Eons ago, I was standing in the lobby of our building talking to someone when a police officer came in and said that the emergency call button in a elevator had been pressed. Another employee came rushing out of their office to explain that they had been carrying a large box and had accidentally hit the button with it. The police officer shrugged it off, and like your HR person we found it reassuring that the call button actually works.

    6. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Ha my old company was like that. The number of people accidentally dialing 911 was so bad that we had the fire department come to our office and give a lecture on it because they have to respond to all calls and it was happening multiple times a week.

    7. General Chaos Wrangler*

      This is why my company changed our dial out number to 8. Of course all the good stories happened before my time.

    8. TheWonderGinger*

      I haven’t done this, but when I was in high school we were on vacation and I tried to use a phone card (jebus I feel old) to call a friend back home. It didn’t go through, I tried again, and when it didn’t work a third time I gave up and went to join my family in the pool. The police came to the hotel and I got in so much trouble!

      1. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        Wait, why would the police come because a phone card was nonfunctioning? Heck, IIRC about 25% of those things never worked right and the police would have had to call in the National Guard if they really wanted to address that situation!

    9. Amber T*

      Oh man, this used to happen ALL THE TIME at my office. You used to have to dial 9 to get out of the building, then if you were dialing to a different area code (99% of the time), you had to dial 1. I worked the front desk, and at least once a month we’d get a call from the local police department saying that someone in our office dialed 911, and was everything ok. So I’d call a few people around the building, asking them to check to make sure nobody dropped in their office or some hidden place near a phone (heaven forbid someone actually MEANT to dial 911 and we didn’t check), then I’d call back and say no, sorry, everything is fine. A few times local police even turned up (no lights/sirens) to check. That was always fun.

      (Fun not so super related story – in middle school/high school, I had a huge crush on this super cute boy who was a few years ahead of me. He knew my name but that was about it. Turns out his IDENTICAL TWIN BROTHER is a police officer in my town now, and he was the one to stop by and check once! It didn’t matter it was 10+ years since I had even seen the guy, my heart went a-fluttering and I was super awkward. It also doesn’t help that I’m literally Ben Wyatt around police officers. But yeah, it’s happened.)

    10. WhoKnows*

      I’ve done this on a phone, but never a fax machine! When it happened on the phone, I realized as soon as I did it and hung up immediately.

      I feel so bad for you but also that’s kind of hilarious to do it from a fax machine!!

    11. Anonymous in NC*

      Where I live, the area code is 919, so we dial 7 to reach an outside line because of many incidences people doing things like this in the past. An easy mistake to make!

    12. Unexpected Dragon*

      If it makes you feel better, because of that whole dial 9 thing, my entire office building had to live with a literal month of “don’t accidentally call the cops” messaging. And all phones were reprogrammed to display general reminder. They removed the 9 for getting an external number, but the reminder lives on every phone in the building.

      1. Amber T*

        Lol our phone screens still say:
        911 FOR EMERGENCIES
        8 for an Outside Line

        It’s been at least 2 years since we implemented the 8 thing… I don’t think the screens are going away any time soon.

      1. thankful for AAM.*

        We still have to dial 9 then 911. I know because I have had to call 911 more than once in my job (libraries are not like you think!)

    14. Tigger*

      It’s ok. My sister’s Iphone sos system accidentally called 911 on Christmas Eve. They called back and she had to convince them not to come out and it was an accident. Thank god they didn’t or else it would have been like the end scene from Christmas vacation

      1. cleo*

        One Christmas Eve, firetrucks showed up at my parents’ church during the service and a fireman interrupted the sermon – it turned out that over enthusiastic incense had set off the fire alarms. By far the best Christmast Eve sermon I’ve experienced.

    15. ejay*

      At a old job, our fax machine used send out random faxes and dial 911 on it’s own. Police used to show up all the time until it was fixed.

    16. Imtheone*

      I did this at home because there are lots of 9s in our area code. I mis-dialed somehow and put in 919 and then the number. The police came to check that everything was okay. (They shouldn’t allow area codes that are so similar to the emergency number!)

    17. Alldogsarepuppies*

      We once had an all office email telling us that if we do that by mistake on the phones to stay on the line and tell them not to send someone…but sending a secret fax seems like it could be a good way to discreetly alert.

    18. What's with Today, today?*

      Hotels across the nation changed the dial 9 to get an outside line thing because a woman in our town was brutally murdered by her estranged husband in a hotel while her children tried in vain to dial 9-1-1, but you had to dial 9 to get an outside line first, and the little girl didn’t knot that. Look up Kari’s law. Lots of recent legislation and businesses are beginning to follow the hotel industry lead.

      2. Typewritergirl*

        That is just the most awful tragedy.

        Here in the UK we have 999 so she would probably have managed to get through.

    19. Astrid*

      Not office related, but I lived in Japan with my family for a time when I was in high school. Our apartment complex had a intercom system that you had to use to buzz people up from the lobby, and being simple country folk, it was relatively new to us. We had ordered a pizza and myself, my mother, and my sister went to the lobby to pick it up, and buzzed back up to my dad. It took forever but we eventually made it back up to find that he had accidentally pushed the panic button on the intercom instead of the buzzer (Japanese labels, silly Americans) and had called the police. In the meantime, he’d completely disassembled the intercom to turn off the alarm.

      We learned the words for “Sorry, I’m a dumb American and don’t understand, please don’t arrest me” in Japanese very quickly.

    20. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I used to be the first person in our office at 6am, no one else came in until at least 7. One morning I accidentally set off the alarm, talked to the alarm company and assured them everything was fine, unlocked the building as usual. 15 minutes later I nearly had a heart attack when I looked up to find a very quiet police officer waiting to get my attention. I couldn’t hear anyone knocking on the main door from my office, so since the door was unlocked he walked in and wandered around until he found me. I very nearly needed emergency services after that!

    21. twig*

      I do this around once a year. I dial 9, then sometimes my finger “stutters” (for lack of a better word) on 1. I automatically hang up as soon as I realize what I’ve done — then the campus police office calls me to make sure that I’m okay. They’ve told me that when I accidentally call 911 to stay on the line and let them know it was an accident so that they don’t have to follow up– I’m still working on NOT panicking and hanging up when I realize that I’ve dialled 911.

      (this makes it sound like I do this all the time but I may have done this once a year for the last 9 years that I’ve been here)

      There has been talk about changing our dial out number from 9 for YEARS. BUT we’re a large university campus, so it will probably take a while to enact/cut through the bureaucracy to do this.

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        I did exactly this with the finger stutter and the panicked hang-up; our area code is 919 and apparently this happens a LOT.

        Police called back immediately, and told me to wait for an officer to check everything out. The campus policewoman who came said that I should have stayed on the line, but that they have to come out and check anyway, in case you were being coerced into being chipper and insisting it was a mistake.

    22. TooTiredToThink*

      At one point I worked for an out-bound call center (where people had requested information from us); and the phone number had apparently been entered incorrectly. The auto-dialer dialed and I got 911. I was so confused and said “I didn’t mean to call you!” I was so embarrassed. My supervisor heard my response and knew exactly what happened and started laughing. She explained it happens sometimes. Its funny now; but I was horrified then.

      1. Absurda*

        I had a similar experience when I worked in telephone surveys during college. I didn’t dial 911 but a suicide hotline. Our interaction went something like this:

        Me (flustered): I’m sorry, I have the number!
        Hotline attendant (gently and full of compassion: Are you sure?
        Me (totally flustered and panicked): yes, I’m fine, I’m doing telephone surveys…

        Man that was embarrassing. I don’t know if the attendant ever believed me.

    23. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If I ever worked anywhere with a dial 9 to get out feature, I’d do this, I’m sure!

      I’m glad they didn’t go “ah from a fax number? Must be wrong…” and didn’t dispatch! You’ve got a good response team.

    24. Hobbert*

      I am the police and I’ve done this! Using “9” to dial an outside line is the worst idea in the world. When I worked patrol, it happened all the time. Don’t worry about it!

      For anybody who accidentally does dial 911, please stay on the line! If you hang up, we’ve got to go check on you.

    25. anon24*

      One place I worked had a kiosk with the ability to pay via credit card outside. The actual machine was obviously locked up so you couldn’t access the lines or anything. Somehow at 3 or 4 am one night the dedicated phone line for this credit card machine called 911.

      Fortunately the cops knew us well and knew that this line was not our normal phone line. They checked around, all was good, and called my boss the next day.

    26. tb*

      My work actually uses ’91’ to dial out! If you type the extra ‘1’ for the country code, you are screwed! I always want to know who the person was who chose ’91’ as our dial out code.

    27. New Job So Much Better*

      I worked at a bank for 6 years before I knew we had a silent alarm. Guess who I found out? LOL.

      2. OhNo*

        Oh, man, me too. When I was in college, I worked at the library and had no idea there was a silent alarm under the desk, because nobody ever mentioned it. And then I accidentally hit it one day while poking around looking for something. Apparently the campus cops forgot we had a silent alarm, too, and they called out the regular police before checking with us.

        You can imagine how red my face was when the full campus security force and two squad cars rolled up on the library asking who hit the alarm. My boss was kind enough to take responsibility and apologize to both the police and me for not mentioning it. It definitely went into the student worker’s training manual after that, though.

        1. Zennish*

          I worked as a parking garage attendant in college. During my training, I asked about the red “alarm” button on the console. My boss said, “Don’t depend on it…here I’ll show you” and hit the button. About thirty minutes later, one campus cop pulls up, with no lights or siren, asks “Anybody being robbed here?” then leaves.

    28. Dispatcher*

      If the sheriff’s office or other emergency services responded, send them some cookies or something. It goes a long way for making up in instances like this.

      1. Drago Cucina*

        Our 911 dispatchers once commented on the number of false calls they get because people give their toddlers old cell phones. Even phones that have no plan or have not been assigned a number can call 911. As long as a phone can be powered up and connect to a network it can connect to 911 services.

    29. KR*

      It is a good test of emergency response!! I accidentally called 911 on my office line and at a grocery stores where I worked, and as I stayed on the line to assure them there was no emergency, they used it as a chance to ask the address and make sure their records for the phone number were correct.

    30. StressedButOkay*

      Oh my goodness, you are not the only one! This happened several times at my last job, to the point where we finally posted a note above the fax machine urging caution.

    31. Veger*

      I accidentally called 911 from my desk phone.

      Step 1:To dial out press 9
      Step 2: Press 1 for a long distance call
      Step 3: Accidently pressed 1 again

      ….911 starts to activate…. I panick and hang up the phone. A few minutes later a police officer stops by the main reception for a welfare check. I shamefully admit my error.

    32. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      My coworker did this four times, to the point where the police department told us they’d start billing our employer. I was so grateful when we switched to “8” for outgoing calls.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Seriously. I don’t think we have a problem with this at my job (my department doesn’t but we’re remotely located so I’m not sure what goes on in the main building. It hasn’t been brought to staff attention, though) but I’ve always thought that “9” was not the best choice for a dial-out prefix, specifically because of this.

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          I’ve always thought that “9” was not the best choice for a dial-out prefix, specifically because of this.

          9 was for an outside line before 911 was a national thing.

          That said, I believe most new installations of phone systems are switching to 8 as the prefix for dialing out, but on an existing system of any complexity it’s an absolute nightmare, so only happens when the business decides it’s worth the time and money.

    35. Muriel Heslop*

      I’ve done it! Same issue fax machine – 9 to dial out, 1 for a US based number then 9 for international. I was 22 and at my first job – I was so mortified! Everyone enjoyed it immensely except for me. I felt terrible. It happens!

    36. Jellyroll Morganstern*

      Yeah, this is not a fail on your part. It is a fail on the part of the office for not marking the fax machine clearly “Do Not Dial 9-1 On the Fax Machine” My office had the same issues and put up big stickers on the machine next to the keypad, and signs over the machine.

    37. Kindly Pass Claudia Oreos, For Goodness Sake*

      If it makes you feel any better at all, I once accidentally called 911 while on a ride at an amusement park. You know how if you hold down the side button it will make an emergency call for you? Yeah …

      1. Batshua*

        Was it a roller coaster? Were you screaming?

        Please say it was not a ferris wheel or a carousel!

        1. Kindly Pass Claudia Oreos, For Goodness Sake*

          It was the Escape from Gringotts ride at Universal, we were definitely screaming, and I have no idea how long someone had been on the line but I didn’t notice until we were off the ride and outside.

          And on that day, I learned not to put my phone in the pocket of my hoodie while riding things.

    38. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

      There was an hilarious Reddit thread where a person with a new mobile complained the police showed when they tried to call voicemail from their mobile. Link in username.

      They’d woefully misunderstood something, and thought they could dial 112 for voicemail. This is ACTUALLY a (Europe-wide?) number that diverts to Emergency Services. The ’emergency service voicemail’ they heard when calling ‘voicemail’ was an operator repeating ‘What is the nature of your emergency?’.

      It must have been a real headslapper when they realised…

    39. Mimmy*

      I did this once by accident when I was still living at home, but never at work, thank goodness! Makes me glad that my job doesn’t require me to make outside phone calls!!

    40. A Non E. Mouse*

      Dialing 9 for an outside line was around before 911, so the problem kind of created itself.

      As for commiseration, it happens all the time – the best course of action (if you can hear them!) is to just stay on the line and explain you accidentally dialed, so sorry, my apologies.

    41. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Haha, this happened in my office a few weeks ago. I work at reception and had no idea someone accidentally called 911, so it was a shock when a couple of police officers showed up. I brought it up at the last staff meeting and asked that if you accidentally dial 911, even if you hang up, please tell me!!!

    42. Ann O'Nemity*

      I haven’t done it on a fax machine, but my cell phone recently went into SOS mode and called 911 from my purse. I didn’t realize it until they called back.

    43. Mbarr*

      I haven’t accidentally dialed 911… But I used to work for a smartphone company, and during testing/phone setup, developers/everyone constantly hit the Emergency Dial button, then they’d panic and end the call, but of course police would have to show up to check things out… We all got an email reminding us of proper procedure.

    44. stripey*

      The 1 in the 1-800 number is the same as the 1 before a US number. 800 is a toll free area code. One one replaces the other. I’m a little surprised this isn’t common knowledge, but I also haven’t worked in an office setting in almost 20 years, so I guess I don’t know what people often don’t know anymore.

      1. Kimmybear*

        We keep having issues with staff accidentally calling 911 because we hire a lot of younger workers who have never dialed anything but a cell phone. They don’t know when to enter 9 or 1 or areas codes or 011 for international and so we end up with the fire department at the office.

    45. Lizzo*

      Oh god, I have been there! I was setting up a conference call for a board meeting, and like you, had to dial 9 1, but apparently I dialed 1 again. This was right before the meeting started, so just about everyone was there and heard the dispatcher ask over the speakers what my emergency was. I stammered: “Oh, sh*t! I am so sorry! Wrong number” and frantically hung up. Worse, the room burst into laughter – a room full of corporate and nonprofit leaders laughing like immature teenagers!

      Yeah, not my finest moment.

    46. Cat Fan*

      This is probably only happened a bazillion times in the large company where I work. Try not to do it again, but don’t worry about it.

    47. Ciela*

      20+ years ago my mom was supervising a guy who would dial 911 “by accident” several times a day. He claimed he was calling 411 for directory assistance. But why you needed directory assistance for current clients, he was never able to answer. So several times a day, the police would call back, and ask if there was an emergency. My mom would say no, but they would always send a patrol car anyway.
      411 guy was fired after not too long for other issues.

    48. Doodle*

      It would be a kindness to write a little reminder about “9” and post it at/above/on the fax machine.

    49. MoopySwarpet*

      We’ve had the cops show up multiple times and we have less than 10 employees! When that happens, I ask them to let me double check and ask each person in the office if they called 911. No one ever admits it, of course. Finally, the last one said that they tried to call, but there was no answer. For whatever reason, the number listed for our location with emergency services was one we don’t use and it got missed when we routed our phone system.

      Coincidentally, since I’ve gotten than fixed, we haven’t had any 911 calls, but if we do, they will call us first. I thought about changing the dial out to a different number, but decided against it.

    50. DCGirl*

      Two stories: when I was a bank teller in college, I accidentally forgot to shut the small safe in the teller line one night, and it triggered the silent alarm. I was the only person working, at the drive-in window. I exited the building to find police cars converging on the building from every direction.

      In my fund raising days, I worked at a college where the president’s office was on the second floor of the very modern, cantilevered student center building. You had to walk up a flight of stairs to get to it, which put you on a landing with a door to go back down the stairs and an emergency exit to the roof over half of the first floor. We had a candidate get confused on her way out and go out the emergency exit by mistake. The alarm triggered, causing the building to evacuate, and the poor candidate was left up on the roof in full view of the assembled masses on the campus lawn. She was actually the best candidate and got the job, but they were probably still telling the story of the day Judy set off the alarm 25 years later when she retired.

    51. Lucille2*

      I bet you’re not the only one who’s done that in your office! In my office, we have to dial 9 then 1 for all calls and faxes. I could see myself making this mistake. Also, I have made an accidental call from my cell to 911. It’s too easy from an iphone. In my case, I told the operator it was an accident, had to answer some questions to ensure I was not speaking under duress, and nothing came of it. Operator said it happens on occasion. But still, I felt really bad wasting the operator’s time like that.

    52. Fried Eggs*

      I’ve done this!! I was working for a college career services office. I had to fax a student’s transcript to area code 919, and I somehow just spaced and sent it to 911 + fax number instead. Went back to my desk and got a phone call from campus security asking if anyone was in distress. Apparently emergency services called them to check before sending a fleet of emergency vehicles over, so at least they didn’t actually show up. I did have to fess up to my boss when she got back so she wouldn’t hear about it from someone else.

      I felt both embarrassed and weirdly reassured that if I ever got locked in the copy room I could send a fax to get rescued!

      I’m sure you’re mortified, but from an outsider’s perspective I can tell you, showing up just to be sure is part of emergency services’ job! I’m sure they’ve had their time wasted in much more intentional ways!

  6. Anon nonprofit worker*

    Since most people and orgs are so secretive about salaries I want to get AAM input about this to see if I’m off-base or if this offer is good. I recently went through an extensive interview process for a nonprofit in the education field, for a director position in the scholarships and financial aid department. I have four years direct experience in this type of work and four years classroom teaching experience prior to that.

    The position can work from their New York, Los Angeles or San Francisco office and the offer is $75,000 a year. I know from people that used to work there that they only do COL increases and they have a no negotiation policy for salary. I was hoping for more, but does this sound correct to people in this field?

    1. JustaCPA*

      Caveat – I have no experience whatsoever in the nonprofit world

      That said, 75k for a director position for 3 of the priciest cities in the US? eh. I would say thats low.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I’d also say $75k for a director-level position is low, but most director roles I know of (including my own – I am based in NYC) require much more than 4 years of experience.

          1. HR in an Association/NonProfit*

            This is a really good point. All of our director level folks have at least 10 years of experience.

          3. Khaleesi Esq.*

            Yes, this. Three years is considered the miminum in my field for coming on board in a junior position.

            1. Doodle*

              Classroom experience is good but it’s not directly related to scholarships etc. So really she does have only four years of direct experience.

      2. AdAgencyChick*

        Yeah. I am also not in nonprofits but I can’t help thinking that that salary in NYC would mean living with roommates in Greenpoint or similar.

          1. PR in Non-Profits*

            Agreed. If it’s just you on that salary in NYC you’d be fine, you could get a 1 bedroom or studio in a decent neighborhood, but if you’re supporting a family it’s definitely going to be tight.

      3. Anon for Now*

        I think it’s a reasonable salary for a medium cost of living area. But, for super high cost of living areas like SF, NYC, etc., I think it’s on the low side.

      4. Anony*

        This! 75k is chump change in those high COL areas. The only way I’m moving to those cities if I make at least 150k

    2. Boredatwork*

      I feel like it would be challenging to actually *live* in any of those cities on 75K a year. If you’re relocating, I’d strongly consider how much housing/transportation costs will be in both time and money.

        1. Hi*

          Yeah what? You can certainly live on 75k in New York! It won’t go as far. If you have several children or dependents that changes things. I survived in Chicago on 30k…its not has high COL as those cities though.

      2. NYer*

        Yea, I’m also living very comfortably in Manhattan for less.

        People always seem to think the COL is just so exorbitantly higher in NYC, but I don’t think it’s that different? The cost of space is more expensive, but you live in a smaller apartment and pay rent instead of a mortgage. And transportation costs are WAY down ($121/month for unlimited metrocard compared to cost of gas, insurance, general car maintenance, etc.) Plus, I can’t think of anywhere else where you can get such cheap and tasty food (for reference, my lunch budget is $4/meal and I can easily get take out for lunch at a different place every weekday).

        1. LilySparrow*

          I think part of the issue is that the lifestyle is totally different. If you were going to try and replicate a suburban/regional city lifestyle in terms of # of bedrooms/bathrooms, new construction or home ownership, a car, buying furnishings for that home, insurance, property tax, and so forth, then it would be nearly impossible to live in NYC on a mid-five-figure income.

          But a small apartment with rent control, no car, and a simpler lifestyle – it’s quite doable. There are a lot of resources you can enjoy for free or very low cost in places like New York (like parks and arts experiences) that aren’t available in other places unless you own them.

        2. KX*

          I could live on that in San Diego, with a paid-off car, if I didn’t have kids. Even on my own (no spouse or roommate). Public transportation isn’t great, though.

        3. Lucille2*

          Depends what city you’re comparing NYC to. Taxes, cost of groceries, utilities can also be much higher in NYC than many other cities. Transportation costs are great, but you more than make up for that in other living expenses. Also have to factor in commuting time. That can affect cost but mainly quality of home life depending on the lifestyle.

    3. Never*

      In New York, Los Angeles or San Francisco? That seems really low. I make 75k at a nonprofit as an analyst in the Midwest. I’d guess our directors make ~100-150.

    4. WhoKnows*

      That feels low for any of those cities, but nonprofits don’t pay as much as for-profit companies.

      Can you check GlassDoor to see if maybe anyone has posted salaries from similar companies? If they are asking for 8 years experience, $75k is pretty low, especially in a major city where cost of living is quite high. If they’re asking for 4 years experience, $75k is good to me. Kind of depends!

      1. Anon nonprofit worker*

        I did check Glassdoor and it just has not been consistent, and even the few salaries listed for other directors at this NP varied so much that the lowest one must have been wrong and that has been sort of a theme with other similar positions at nonprofits that I’ve looked up on Glassdoor.

        For this position, they asked for 5+ years work experience in education, which I do have, so their advert was a little vague.

      2. meesh*

        I work in media in NYC at a for-profit and I make less than 75K with 8 years of experience…sigh. The city is expensive :(

    5. HR in an Association/NonProfit*

      A couple of questions:
      1. What is the size of the organization? Number of employees?
      2. Will you be managing people?
      3. What level of degree do you have?
      4. What is the annual operating budget of the non-profit? What size budget will you be managing?
      5. Have you looked at their 990? It will list their most highly compensated employees and their compensation. If not, check on guidestar.

      If you answer the questions above, I can look at some of the salary studies I have and give you a better ballpark.

      I can

      1. zora*

        Yes to all of these questions.
        I would have been thrilled to get that high of a salary when working for nonprofits in San Francisco, but I worked for particularly stingy organizations and there’s a reason I sold out to the corporate overlords.

        I will say, I could live pretty comfortably in the SF bay area on $75K per year, but at that salary you will not be able to live in close-in San Francisco, or be able to buy a home, unless you have a partner with a higher salary. (I live in Oakland, and commute to SF and I love it) But also, that is like entry level salary for most tech companies in this area, so you will definitely notice the disparity in lifestyles with a lot of the population.

        1. Gumby*

          Salary.com is another source you can check for salaries. Normal caveats apply, but they have an Associate Financial Aid Director at $77k and a Financial Aid Director at $106k in SF.

          And yes, at that rate you’ll be making some compromises on your living situation – distance, size, etc. But hey – I’m looking for a roommate and the rent is area-reasonable AND the condo I rent has W/D in the unit! :)

      2. HMM*

        All of the above and also what does other comp look like (time off, benefits, commuter, etc.) It matters significantly in the calculation. If you’re getting paid 75K plus 4 weeks paid vacation, paid sick time, 100% covered medical/dental vision, a commuter stipend that covers monthly transport, 401k match… your total comp could well be near or over $100K, which is a very reasonable for 4 years related experience to the job, in SF or elsewhere.

        At my established SF nonprofit, 75k for director level is more manager-level wages given to folks who have anywhere from 2-4 years of direct experience. We’d expect somewhere close to 7-10 years relevant experience for a Director-level role. And it also depends on your team too – for us, program makes less than operations unless you’re very high up in the chain. Depending on the benefits you very well might be getting a great offer here.

        I don’t want to downplay the fact that SF is very expensive, but just to give some perspective, I lived comfortably on 55k for a while in SF and it was fine. YMMV, of course. I had 2 roommates, lived far from work (but still in the city), and limited discretionary expenses but still felt like I was living a great, full, enjoyable life. I moved from a moderate-COL area in the south, got a job that was marginally more than a COL increase in SF and gave up things that I loved (a car, a bigger house, living alone) in order to live here. It’s sometimes good, sometimes bad – it’s just a different lifestyle. Only you can know whether it’s worth it. The people telling you to do it – or not do it- are coming at it, understandably, based on their own personal filters but can’t answer it for you. All you can do is look at the facts and see if this works for your life, right now.

        The question is the same in middle-of-nowhere Arkansas as it is in SF – what are your expenses relative to your income and what are you willing to give up to get the alternative lifestyle you want?

        1. KAG*

          Don’t move to Arkansas. At some point, you have to consider the value of happiness versus money.

          I live here now, and am saving up to get out.

    6. Natalie*

      Even for an NFP that seems low to me. In February I’m starting a job in the finance team at a midwestern NFP and I’m making 80% of that, in a medium COL city.

      Also, only cost of living increases, no raises ever? That just sucks.

    7. anon as well for this*

      I work for a nonprofit based in New York (granted it is in medical research, not education). I would say my employer is average to slightly lower than average in terms of salaries, and I make in the low 70s as a Senior Manager (which is middle management here). I believe starting salaries for Directors are around 90K for us.

      Unless it is an org where everyone who isn’t entry level is considered a Director that seems pretty low for an org that is able to support offices in both New York and California (we are incorporated in both those states and many, many consultants have told our CEO that they are the two most expensive states to run a nonprofit in).

    8. Lilysparrow*

      My husband had a director-level position at a large religious non-profit in NYC at $80k…

      Ten years ago. And he was below market then.

    9. School Inclusion Specialist*

      It sounds about right from my experience in Boston. Look at glass door and their 990 on guide star. Also, there is an organization in Boston that collects salaries from nonprofits across the state called TSNE. One huge factor I saw when reading the TSNE report was the size of the org. When I was a director at a small non-profit, I was paid $65,000, but this was slightly lower than the average of $68,000 for comparable sized orgs. So if your org is huge, then you might push for a little more. Maybe check out the TNSE website for the data then add 1 or 2% for the cost of living in those cities? Or check out if there is a similar nonprofit in the cities you are looking at.

    10. Anon at the moment*

      Um, yes, this is very low. I live in one of the more priciest areas in the country and make 75K and am barely surviving because of rent. And I’m not a manager (director); either. There is no way I’d move to any of those 3 cities on that salary unless they happened to be easy commuting from a cheaper area (like I could live in NJ and commute to NYC easily enough) or was willing to have roommates. Definitely not San Francisco (where you’d probably have to have 3 roommates).

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        Yea, this sounds more in line with my experience. When I was living in Chicago, I could barely make ends meet on 50K. In the Bay Area – well outside of the city – I was living fine off 70K, but lived over an hour from SF.

        But in SF proper, where rent is double what you’d pay in the greater Bay Area, and x4 what you’d pay in your average city, 75K won’t get you very far if you want to live in or near the city.

    11. Former Ed Nonprofit Worker*

      I think the salary is pretty close to right.

      My experience: From 2012 – 2014 I worked for a national ed nonprofit, in a director-level role. Salaries at this organization were on the high end for our sector. My salary was $75k to start. I was based in a Midwestern city (not Chicago) but was paid at a higher rate than other people at my level in similar COL areas because my role required 50% travel and was therefore less desirable. I had around 10 years of experience going into that role.

      My takeaway for you/why I think the offer is reasonable: While those cities have higher COL than where I lived, it sounds like this role is at a lower level than the role I had (even though they have the same title; I’m guessing your role would have been classified as a manager or coordinator at my organization, just based on your years of experience). A colleague of mine who was based in Connecticut and had a role similar to mine but was less experienced made $65k to start, as a comparison.

      Alllll that being said, that’s a tough salary for those regions, even if it’s an appropriate market rate. :(

    12. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Salaries vary REALLY widely in the nonprofit sector. You’re going have some people telling you it’s really low and others saying it’s on par because there’s just a ton of variation (much more than in other sectors). The question is whether it’s line with what you know you personally can command on the market (and if it’s not, whether you’re willing to work for less than you could otherwise make).

    13. Applesauced*

      Seems low for a director, and especially low for this cities you listed – following the 30%/40x rule, you can afford up to $1875 for rent/housing. That’s doable in those cities, but it won’t be great.

        1. Applesauced*

          Gross! Paying more than 30% of your gross (before taxes) means you are “housing burdened” – and in NYC most landlords require you to make 40x (the math is the same) the monthly rent annually.

    14. Maggie May*

      FYI there are COL calculators that use public data where you can put in what you’re currently making and where and they’ll tell you what a similar lifestyle would cost in other areas.

      I’m in the Midwest, for example, so to move to those places I’d expect a 1.5x to 2x higher salary, but I’m a developer.

    15. Anonymous Educator*

      First of all, $75,000 is not good for San Francisco for a director-level position. Something you have to keep in mind is that there are expensive parts of LA and then more affordable parts of LA. NYC is expensive, but there are more affordable places in New Jersey that are just a half-hour NJ Transit ride into the city. In San Francisco, there are no affordable options nearby. Not Daly City, not Oakland. People are starting to move out to Castro Valley and Livermore. I know folks commuting from Sacramento (I kid you not). The median rent is higher here in SF than it is in NYC.

      Also, you might want to check out the non-profit’s tax returns on ProPublica to see what the top-earners at that non-profit make. If the CEO of ED of the non-profit is making $500,000, you shouldn’t be making $75,000 as a director.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I have family that used to commute from even further than Sacramento to San Francisco every day as well (they would carpool, so I assume share the driving), so yes, this is not at all unheard of.

      2. zora*

        There are much smaller nonprofits with much lower budgets. I was a Director level as the OP describes and I made $35K. That was a struggle, but there were many nonprofits at a similar level in the area.

      4. Taylor*

        I make ~$75,000, work in the non-profit space, and live in San Francisco. I agree with this assessment – I’m currently job hunting to try and find something that pays enough for me to keep living here. Public transportation in SF is also a lot more expensive than NYC and I spend ~$250/month to get to and from work on the bus and Cal Train. What’s sad is that I honestly find LA cheap in comparison to SF.

    16. Little Bean*

      I’m in education in the SF bay area. When you say it’s a director position, how big is the department that you’re supervising? How many people do you oversee? I am technically a director, but I only supervise 3 people, and I only manage 1 aspect of a small organization. I negotiated the director title as partial compensation for a salary offer that was a little lower than I was seeking. I also know of organizations where literally everyone has some kind of inflated title, and their entry-level positions are titled Assistant Director.

    17. Another Anon Nonprofiter*

      I didn’t end up taking it but – Silicon Valley at a small educational nonprofit as a director and it was just over $70,000, 5 years ago.

    18. Doodle*

      So, the title is director but will you be doing director-type work? Sometimes you get “paid” with a fancier title instead of $.

    19. Llama Wrangler*

      I want to just jump into to echo what Alison said about there being such a huge range of salaries. I’m at a director level title at an education non-profit in one of those cities making substantially less than that, and I know of other people in my field at the same level who are making even less than I am. (We work for organizations with a lot of public funding and consequently a lot of restrictions on salary.) I think only our c-level staff is making in the $70k range. On the other hand, the same job at a different organization that has more foundation or private funding might be 80k+ for director level.

  7. Hawk*

    Should I move my desk? I’ve never worked in an office before, just a cube. I started my new job on Monday and my desk is facing the wall, with a window to my left and the door a little ways to my right. There’s enough room to move it facing the door, but I’m not sure if it would come across as weird/ trying to hide something… I just don’t like people coming up behind me and staring at my computer screen. Most people here have their desk facing the wall. I’m fairly junior, if it matters. Thank!

    1. Cordelia Vorkosigan*

      I don’t think that sounds weird or secretive. I think that sounds pretty normal. It’s your office — I say rearrange your furniture however you like!

      1. Ananas*

        You’d think so, but I got some negative reactions once when I put a file cabinet so that it partly blocked my office window…

    2. Four lights*

      I would want it facing the door too. It can be very jarring when someone unexpectedly comes up behind you. I don’t know if in your office people would think it was weird.

    3. Anon because this is slightly identifying*

      I’m moving to a new office soon and my one firm demand is that I will not have my back to the door. This isn’t odd at all.

    4. ISuckAtUserNames*

      Would you end up getting distracted by people walking by all day? Offices at my company are configured for the person’s monitor to be to the right or left of the door, so I think that’s pretty standard.

    5. Anonymous Penguin*

      I’d just run it by your boss, very casually, in a heads up sort of way. “I’m thinking of turning my desk so I can see people when they come in. There shouldn’t be a problem with that, right?” That way maybe you’ll hear “No, you need to have it like that because X,” where X could be “there’s too much glare on the screen” or “it’s the only way to reach the outlets” or “Big Boss prefers to be able to instantly see everyone’s screens.” Or maybe your boss will say, “Sure, need a hand?”

    6. DivineMissL*

      I’ve always turned my desk so that I am facing visitors when they walk in; it’s much more welcoming and friendly, instead of having them walk up behind me and tapping me on the shoulder. Plus, often I”m working on confidential information and I want to keep my computer screen from view anyway. I’ve done this at several jobs, and I found that, once I turned my desk and explained why, many other folks ended up turning their desks around as well. Be a trailblazer!

    7. Murphy*

      I’m easily startled by people coming up behind me, so I’d want it the other way. That’s how everyone around here has theirs, so I think that’s totally normal. I think your company is unusual in that regard.

    8. Triplestep*

      I design places where people work including offices, and here are the things I’d be looking for:

      – Is there a policy from Planning or Facilities Management that allows you to move your furniture or is there a standard?
      – I believe you that it fits, but would you have the proper clearances? You need to meet both building code and ADA standards.
      – Is this a free-standing desk or systems furniture? Is there anything attached to a wall? Even if there is nothing attached to the wall, some desks are “handed” meaning they have one orientation, so it may not work where you want it.
      – Would you be trading one bad situation (people coming up from behind you) for another? Will you be sitting right in front of the door with walkers-by distracting you, making it so your guests need to sit in the door traffic making *them* feel weird, or making it so that your monitor blocks your own view to guests with whom you are trying to talk?
      – Where is the power and data? If you’re moving your desk to a position where the cords won’t reach, someone will need to come and move or add the power/data, and there would be a small price associated with that most likely.

      For what it’s worth, you would be in good company wanting to move your desk because you don’t like people coming up from behind – that’s a complaint I hear a lot. So I don’t think you’ll look like you’re trying to hide anything. But if most people have their desk a certain way, there may be a reason for that, and it might be related to one of my bullet points above. Since you’re so new, maybe wait a bit before asking to move anything (and yes, you should ask to see if there’s a policy around it.) I get a lot of complaints when people first move into a space; often they don’t immediately see the reasons why things are arranged the way they are and there very will could be a reason. Other times they acclimate, either to a design that was well thought out (only they didn’t know it) or to a configuration that is not optimal.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Building code and ADA requirements are a huge problem in office space and exam rooms in my building. It’s surprising what you can’t do.

    9. Hooray College Football*

      One issue that I have had in the past – sometimes the glare from the window light can make it hard to see your screen. I have a desk facing the door (that I use more for client meetings than work), and a computer credenza facing the wall. I still get some glare, but have blinds to minimize the worst of it. Just something to consider.

    10. Annie Moose*

      Do other people in your offices have their desks facing different directions? I used to work in an office where cube layouts were very standardized and moving your desk wasn’t really an option unless you had a specific need. If you’re unclear, I agree that running it by your manager would be a good idea.

    11. kittymommy*

      Yeah, I’d want to face the door, but I’m also one of those people who has to face the door wherever I go (back to a wall, not blocked in). The only thing I would also check is that when/if you do that make sure your computer doesn’t have a glare or their or blinds for the window.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Lots of people hate being creeped up on! I sure do. I’ve never had my back towards my door, that’s so odd.

    13. Kelly AF*

      The mandatory security training we have at work actually specifies that computer screens should not be visible to doors/windows. I do work in a bank, but I think it’s totally normal to not want your screen visible at a casual glance regardless of where you work.

    14. Chatty Katy*

      Push it away from the wall and rotate it 180 degrees, so it is in the same spot, just facing out.

    15. Eccentric Smurf*

      If you ever work with confidential information like PII or financial data, then moving your desk would actually be a very good idea.

    16. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’d move it, and if questioned about it I’d say I was following feng shui philosophy. Position your desk so that you are in command of the room and don’t allow for things to happen “behind your back.”

    17. Wishing You Well*

      If you can’t move your desk, try placing a mirror or any reflective object that lets you see people coming up behind you. Moving your desk is simplest, though. You could also put a glare hood over your monitor to help prevent people from seeing what you’re working on.
      Hope you find a solution soon.

    18. epi*

      Lots of people don’t like to have their back to the door or hallway– it’s a pretty normal request. I had to bring it up at my very first job and was super nervous, but it turned out my boss was totally sympathetic and had his own stories about being startled or even having people openly trying to look at his screen while they spoke to him. I think most people also know it’s tough to work in an open office or cubicle, and little things like this make it easier to concentrate and feel less exposed. It wasn’t possible to move the desk I had at that job, but my boss ordered me a privacy screen for my monitor. That might be another thing to consider if you’re told your desk can’t be moved.

      I would run it by your boss just in case there are any relevant polices you’re not aware of, such as concerns about you moving your computer yourself.

    19. Admin of Sys*

      Desk rearrangement is very common when folks get a new office, but check in with facilities and IT before you start dragging furniture around. There might be limitations on electricity or layout based on where the outlets are.

    20. CM*

      I don’t think it should be a problem socially, but there might be something about the furniture or the IT setup that prevents it from being moved. If your office has as office manager and/or an IT manager, I would probably talk to those people to make sure there isn’t a physical reason why you can’t have your desk moved. If your office is too small to have those managers, I’d ask the admin staff whether there’s any reason you can’t move your desk. If something bad has happened in the past, they would know.

    21. ISuckAtUserNames*

      Am I reading this wrong? I’m reading that the desk doesn’t have Hawk sitting with their back to the door, but with their back perpendicular to the door. Is that right?

      It’s not really possible in most normal-sized offices for someone to creep up behind you if the door is to your right, but people may see your screen, obviously, if they approach your right side and your monitor is facing you or at all canted toward the door. If your company doesn’t allow you to move your desk or monitors, you can always order privacy screens to prevent casual snooping.

      1. Hawk*

        Yes, I maybe wasn’t quite clear enough- the door is to my right but offset from the desk. Imagine looking at a square- my desk faces the wall at the top right, but the door is at the bottom left, so everyone approaches from behind me and to the right, which is almost worse than if it was directly behind me.

        1. JulieCanCan*

          I’d ask if it was OK but in a “I’m doing this because of _____(good reason) and _____(good reason), please let me know if there’s anything I should know before proceeding” way.

          I can’t stand having my screen open for all to see even though it’s only displaying work related information – it’s just an awkward feeling of always thinking someone is behind you.

    22. Jaid_Diah*

      If you can’t change your position, put a mirror on your desk or the wall so you can at least see who’s approaching behind you.

    23. Argh!*

      The first thing I did on my job is exactly what you’re asking about, and I have never moved it from that position again. If your workplace is so stuck-up that you can’t have your own office the way you want it, start working on your resume ASAP!

  8. Sunflower*

    My self esteem is in the gutter right now after. I was passed over for a promotion for the second time this year yet i keep receiving higher level work and rave reviews with no complaints from the ppl I support. I can’t help but feel like I’m being taken advantage of and gaslighted by my company. It’s hard for me to not let this feeling carry over outside of work and I’m looking for advice on how to feel better both in and outside of work while I try to get out of this place.

    My managers position has been a revolving door so my reviews have been done by my grand boss who I don’t work closely with. I was blindsided when she said she didn’t think I was ready for a promotion last month after telling me 6 months ago that I was working above my title. Her and my new boss(who has only been here 2 months) then assigned me one of the biggest projects our team handles. When I said that grand boss told me a month before that this project should be handled by my manager due to the size and complexity, she didn’t remember that conversation and went on to contradict many things she had told me only a month prior. I was told I’d be given a formal promotion plan and I am still waiting for that despite my requests to see something. I am told I am so close to a promotion yet I am given vague steps to take. When I asked why Grand Boss didn’t feel I was ready, she cited one time I didn’t respond to an email but had nothing else to say.

    This is made harder by seeing other ppl in my dept promoted at the drop of a hat- I’ve worked my tail off while my manager’s roles have been vacant and it’s painful to see other people be advocated for and given promotions just because they asked. The people I support on these projects who give feedback to my managers have all agreed I am working far beyond my title and are upset that I haven’t been promoted. My team is hiring for a position a few levels above mine- I know they want someone with different experience than me(which I understand) but I’m tempted to apply so they have to make some sort of formal recognition that I am wanting to be promoted.

    I feel like an idiot coming to work everyday and continuing to work hard and care. I feel worse because this complaining makes me feel like an immature baby but I don’t how else to make it clear how unhappy I am. My new boss seems great and I know she thinks I deserve this promotion but shes got a boatload of other issues (like she doesn’t get along with grand boss) so I understand why this isn’t a priority. I know other ppl have gone through this but I’m having a hard time not taking all of it personally.

    1. Not Maeby*

      This rings so true with me in my work situation as well. It sucks. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this; it is so demoralizing to go through this sort of thing. I’ll be following to see if anyone has suggestions, but I’ve basically resigned myself to just getting by until I can get out.

    2. A person*

      Did you actually apply for these other positions or just take someone’s word you weren’t ready? It sounds like you didn’t apply for these other positions and want to apply for this one to make a statement. You should put in an application for any position you want instead of trusting management (especially revolving management) will take care of you when they think they are “ready”.

      1. A person*

        Adding, if you formally apply for several promotions and are continually rejected that’s a good sign to start applying elsewhere. Don’t get bitter over it, take your skills somewhere they’ll be appreciated.

      3. Sunflower*

        In my dept, a position doesn’t need to open up for you to be promoted. I’d say only about 5% of folks who are promoted do so by applying to an open position. 95% of them are promoted to a higher level from their current position after they ‘prove’ they are working above their title. This new position is the first time an actual position has been open on my team. I was assured 2 years ago that a promotion of this same sorts was possible for me and a position would not need to open up for me to be promoted- given I perform well, etc.

    3. WhoKnows*

      I know this is almost impossible to do (because it sounds like we are similar), but you need to try to be less emotionally attached to your work and to your workplace. Otherwise, everything is going to start feeling like a slight from the higher-ups. I am in the process of trying to do this now and it is helping a bit with my overall mood and outlook on life. I was letting work issues bleed into everything, because I associate my perceived value at work with my overall self-worth.

      The second thing I would do is start job-searching and interviewing right now. And then, follow-through with leaving if you get an offer you want to accept. This place may freak out and give you a counter offer when they realize they might lose you, but if you accept it, you are going to end up right back where you are now in no time. It might seem scary to leave somewhere and start somewhere new, but it will be worth it in the long run.

      1. CatCat*

        Well said, WhoKnows!

        Sunflower, it sounds like you’re really frustrated, but since you’ve got the actual higher level of experience, that positions you nicely for searching for a new position at another employer that will higher you into that role (with the commensurate title and compensation).

        I have also been shot down my management when I raised something I needed to continue with the team, only to have the same manager then try to scramble to fix the problem when I put in my notice. I just said, “Yeah, no. The time to address the problem was when I raised it.” I did not trust them to actually follow through with any promises at that point and I had a bird in the hand that I wasn’t going to give up on some unearned faith that anything would actually be fixed. It was 100% the right call and moving on was good for me professionally and for my own personal well-being.

        Explore your options and leverage your experience into getting the promotion you want with an employer that is actually interested in giving it to you.

        1. Nessun*

          100% agree. When I asked for input on how to move up and was told repeatedly there was nothing available (despite glowing reviews and previous “hints”), I took it as a sign – they’re happy with the work you do, but not bothered about moving you up, so it’s time to look outwards. And in the short term, there are excellent projects and high-level work that will look great on a resume and speak volumes for your skills in an interview! Leverage what you can where you are, then find people who appreciate that skill set fully.

    4. Autumnheart*

      From my perspective, it sounds like your grandboss is telling you fairy tales so that you keep producing higher-level work for lower-level pay and title. It’s been 6 months, other people have been promoted in that time, you’ve been told contradictory things and not given appropriate guidance while also having your work reviewed highly and assured that you *deserve* the promotion you keep not getting. In your place, I’d feel like this is how they plan to proceed while obviously not intending to promote you (and giving extremely flimsy justifications for it–not responding to one email? Really?). Your grandboss doesn’t sound like a very good manager, if she’s willing to sandbag a high-performing employee in order to accomplish…who knows what, and can’t keep the manager position filled either.

      I would use this time to perform as well as you can on that big project, documenting every one of your achievements and what y0u did, and use that as fodder for your job search. If your grandboss can’t see her way clear to value a high-performing employee, someone else sure as heck will.

    5. LQ*

      Feeling like you’re not being recognized for the work you do is really hard. I don’t think it’s immature at all. I’ve been feeling this a lot lately too. I get (somewhat) why my boss hasn’t promoted me yet. But I’m also pissed off because I know I’m doing way more, and more managerial, work than the rest of the managers save one. And watching them truck along like lululu and not doing the shit they need to do, meanwhile I’m really making a difference and making changes and doing the work they haven’t done? It is really hard to not take it personally. I think making it a decision to stay or start to work on going helps, but not that much.

      I get you. It feels so personal. (Do you have other people who mistake you for that promoted role? That’s the worst for me. I have to correct them, “No, I’m not worthy of that role.” Just feels SO shitty.) You are not alone!

    6. Working with professionals*

      It helps to reframe what you are experiencing. Yes, it sucks to get cotton candy promises that fade when you ask for hard time frames and specific activities to get the promotion. Make a list of all the things you like about your company/position, for instance is the time off generous? Are they flexible when you have personal emergencies? Is the work something you enjoy? Think about your work/life balance and ask yourself if the positive are worth dealing with the negative. Do some research on your industry/job to see if moving companies is somewhat the norm to move up. In my job type quite often you have to move companies to move up because there aren’t many internal openings and quite frankly the core company doesn’t value retaining people in my job title as highly as other jobs in the company. In my case I’ve been asking about a promotion for three years, been told I qualify but that it won’t be happening because of budget. They were honest that there’s no timeline for changing the situation and they didn’t give me hoops to jump through just so I could jump. Give yourself a break and realize this is really important to you and not so important to the company which makes their behavior frustrate you so much. Let that part go, don’t judge your career path by what you see happening with other people – that will just make you bonkers. If you aren’t getting where you want to inside your current company and the positives of your job no longer meet your needs or career plans, polish that resume and take all the experience you’ve gained and go search out a new job with new opportunities. Good luck with whatever you decide!

    7. only acting normal*

      You are me 8 years ago*, and the situation won’t change until your grandboss moves on… or you do.

      * Grandboss saying I was working way above my level, dangling promotion as a carrot to take on challenging projects, then blocking it repeatedly when it came to the crunch with BS reasons. Everyone around me thinking I already was, or saying I should be, one or two levels senior to what I was. A couple of complete wastes-of-space being promoted above me by grandboss (and people coming to me to state their horror that the wastes-of-space had been promoted and I hadn’t). New boss trying and failing to change the situation. Finally grandboss moved role and new grandboss promoted me no bother… except I’d already been driven to a nervous breakdown by then.

      Don’t be me. Don’t be gaslit. Don’t keep working yourself harder and harder for no reward, and definitely not until you break. Do start considering promotion *outside* the team/department/company.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      Sounds like my old job. I did finally get promoted and they 100% set me up to fail. After 2 not great reviews that could be directly attributed to issues on their end not mine that I was given blame for (never back filled old role so still expected me to do that role plus the new role which was impossible) I left for a better job. Better title. better pay, better work/life balance, and a much better environment.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I get the sinking feeling their torpedoing you because they want you there in the role you’re in. They’re paying you less and getting the workload of a higher waged person. This is a sick trap a lot of people who have your killer work ethic fall into.

      You have to assume you won’t be promoted now. They’re liars. Please look to go to another department if possible. Your grand boss sounds like the problem.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I so agree. The thing that tipped me off is the back-pedaling, denying that she had said positives previously. She is not trust worthy. If an employee is doing a great job, you don’t suddenly forget that. You know who is working and who isn’t.
        People who are going to promote an employee act a certain way. This person has NO intention of promoting you. Listen to your gut.

        On the plus side, take all these projects that are above your pay scale and use them on your resume to show what a superstar you are.
        Please do not stay there until you get sick, because this is the typical situation that makes people physically ill.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Agreed.

          I know some will say to just stop doing higher level work you’re not being paid properly to do. However my experience is doing it with the intention to leave and have it on your resume is a huge payoff.

          Each job I’ve moved into has paid me considerably more because of my experience doing things I wasn’t necessarily paid for in my last position.

          If you have no intention to look for another job though, then I would vote to scale back on what you take on.

    10. mr. brightside*

      At this point, I’d be taking it personally, too.

      Assume you don’t get promoted. Ever. How much longer are you willing to work here? It sounds like there’s issues beyond them having you do the work of a higher-level person without giving you the salary for it. How much longer do you want to do this? Five weeks, five months, five years?

    11. Chatty Katy*

      Is a lateral transfer possible? If you like the company, it may be worth moving sideways to get a path upwards.

    12. Gatomon*

      Sounds like it is time to move on then. I understand how frustrating it is, having gone through a similar situation (and watched a well-qualified colleague go through it at another job). There may or may not be some reason they won’t promote you, but it sounds like if there is one, they aren’t willing to share. Sometimes teams need a highly-skilled person to keep things moving, especially when they tend to be feeder roles to higher-level jobs. Unfortunately, instead of locating someone who isn’t interested in moving up and letting them assume that perma-role, sometimes management decides to designate someone to fill that spot, hoping they will continue to stick around if they keep stringing them along. I knew someone who waited over a decade to get promoted — please don’t do that to yourself!

      In the meantime, focus your energy on finding a new job and enhancing your skills. Detach as much as you can from your current role without harming your output. Try working on documentation in preparation for moving on if you’re feeling really down. It’s okay to step back and do a good job instead of an outstanding one and redirect those extra energies towards finding a place that will appreciate you more.

    13. designbot*

      I can only offer solidarity. I came in at one level, busted my but and got promoted to the level I really wanted to be at… only to have our company restructure a year later and be gaslighted by my grandbosses. They claim they were promoting me, but I promise you if you looked at the titles it would read as a demotion. Plus someone who used to be above me in hierarchy but have no supervisory role is now my direct boss, and quite frankly he is awful. I do a lot of his supervisory work to keep the department running, and it’s a trap. If I do it well, I’m just supporting the boss and being a team player (i.e. I get no substantial credit for working beyond my role) and if I drop it, then I’m viewed as a petulant child. Either way, it goes unacknowledged that he refuses to actually do the job, and I’ve proved myself fully capable of it. Meanwhile I get glowing reviews and nobody acknowledges that they effectively demoted me. I’m having a horrible time not being all up in my head about it pretty much constantly.

    14. K.Rae*

      I totally feel you. This was my exact situation about a year ago. Grandboss would never give me straight answers despite me asking what I needed to do to get promoted. I had great reviews from my boss, my coworkers and the business areas I supported. I was doing the same, if not more advanced, work as other people in the higher level. In the time I asked about promotion to when I ultimately left, no less than 5 positions on the team were newly created at that level. Throughout the whole time, my direct manager advocated hard for me to get promoted, but she had many other ongoing issues with the Grandboss. I ended up leaving for much greener pastures (better work, better pay/benefits, better work/life balance, etc.).

      Like someone said above, upon reflection, I was too emotionally invested in the work. Embarrassingly, I cried out of frustration a couple of times in front of my manager (who I’m still close to) including when I gave my notice. I was definitely burnt out, and I think I’m still recovering from it.

      I would tell you, if it’s possible, to look elsewhere instead of spinning your wheels in this position. Your job is a business transaction despite what some companies may say by calling everyone a family. If they can drop you at any time, then you should reserve the same right. It sounds like you’ve advocated for yourself as well as you can, but if your Grandboss hasn’t done anything already, they probably don’t want to and never will.

      I hope everything works out for you. It really sucks when you’re being taken advantage of. Hope to read a good update from you soon.

    15. JGray*

      I’m in the same boat. I worked two positions for 11 months (I had been promoted so was working new job and old job) and I feel like all I’ve gotten from all my hard work is crapped on. It really sucks to be in this situation. So what I have been able to do is I am only going to do the things in my job description. I am not going to go above & beyond anymore because it’s not recognized so I am going to stay in my lane. If you think that nothing will change I would suggest looking around at other jobs. Looking around will let you know what is out there because perhaps there is a different job you could get that would be a step up. This is what I am doing. I am at the point where I don’t want to stay where I’m not appreciated or wanted (both of these is how I am feeling at this current job).

    16. Gumby*

      It sounds like you have managed to make yourself indispensable and the people with the decision making powers fear that if they promote you they will be left in a bad situation. I don’t necessarily think that it is deliberate – in the sense that I doubt your grand boss is in the back rubbing her hands together cackling about getting more work for less pay and how long can she string you along. More likely every time a promotion comes up she balks because: “Sunflower does so much we couldn’t possibly function without her!” It’s, extremely short-sighted though, sadly, not uncommon.

      Although it might come down to leaving to find another organization, it also might help within this org. if you can remove barriers to the replacing you part of the equation – make sure there is no task that you are the *only* person able to complete, perhaps start training someone a level or two behind you on some of your work, etc.

    17. CM*

      It’s really hard to know what to do in a situation where you’re not being treated fairly, because part of you wants justice and part of you wants to minimize the impact the unfairness is having on your mental health and quality of life. It isn’t always possible to do the two things at once, since seeking justice means doubling down on the unfairness and making it your main focus, whereas minimizing the impact usually means pulling away.

      Since you asked about how to stop letting this impact you so much while you look for another job, my advice is to focus on strategies that let you pull away. It doesn’t feel fair to keep working so hard when you aren’t rewarded in the same way others are… so don’t. Work about as much as feels fair in exchange for what they’re rewarding you with. Stop caring how that impacts your chance of promotion or the reviews you get, because you’re not trying to get promoted there anymore; you’re trying to minimize how much it bugs you until you leave. Write a secret note to yourself that you keep in your pocket or somewhere you can get it easily that reminds you this place isn’t worth your caring anymore and you need to step back.

      The most important thing, though, is to mentally cut yourself off from the idea that you’ll ever get justice, or that things will change if you hang in there long enough. Decide that it doesn’t matter if things change later, because it’s too late. They missed their chance to do right by you, and now it’s done.

    18. Always the bridesmaid*

      I don’t have a lot of advice but I can commiserate. I’ve worked above my title for years. I recently applied for promotion only to watch an outsider get the job, who I now have to train. I think it’s a situation that administration believes I won’t leave and knows I will work hard, even beyond my level, because I care about our customers so much, so why would they pay me more? It’s hard to remain positive and not be cynical. I think it’s worth it to think about moving on for your health or if that’s not possible, to examine why you work as hard as you do for this company that doesn’t appreciate it? For me, it’s the customers. I work for them, not my idiot boss.

    20. Anagram*

      I’m finding myself in a similar situation, plus I’m more or less tied to my current employer due to visa issues.
      I’ve been formally promoted to a new title with a comment along the line of “we’ll see how you do and reconsider your payment in half a year” (it’s a typical approach here, unfortunately). Now, I got a great review, but no salary increase, despite meeting the initially stated requirements (which I had to wrangle from my boss back then). The explanation for that was something entirely different to what we talked about six months prior!
      So I have double the responsibility, triple the workload, and the same pay… Plus my boss is a rather obvious manipulator and makes attempts at gasliting pretty often.
      I’m planning a big talk with specifics and numbers in the coming two months, because I’ve already survived a burnout and am not willing to have my overall burden increased with zero compensation. Ugh…

  9. Lyman Zerga*

    Where do you draw the line on internet browsing at work?

    In my workplace, it is considered totally fair game to use the internet for non-work functions during working hours. (For example, I often see some of our biggest directors on Facebook or checking their hobby websites.) Of course, we’re subject to the usual rules (no illegal downloads or streaming, no NSFW categories, etc.), and naturally we are responsible for managing our own time as long as our work gets done.

    But I still seem to have my own subconscious standards for what is and is not acceptable. I’m curious what standards others have set for themselves (separate from the standards set by their employers).

    For example, I’m totally at ease with:
    -Ask a Manager (obviously)
    -professional resources (my favorite Llama Herding bloggers, their Twitter feeds, etc.)
    -news websites
    -forums about my hobby (very vanilla, not something “intriguing” like burlesque)

    For some reason, I draw a line at:
    -Reddit (maybe because there is a risk of seeing NSFW content/too many risky clicks?)
    -shopping (not to say I’ve never bought a pair of shoes during the workday, but I keep it to a minimum)
    -social media for non-work things (I never get on my own Facebook at work, although I see my coworkers–most of whom are more tenured than me and have good judgment–on there all the time)

    I’m curious to hear what other “rules” my fellow AAM readers have created for themselves!

    1. ragazza*

      I wouldn’t look at anything sexytime-related or a site with other questionable content (extreme horror, etc). That’s about it. TBH I am online a lot at work but that’s partly because I am a writer and I can’t sit there and stare at a blank page all the time. I’ll write a little, browse a little, write a little. It works for me. However, if you know or suspect your company is monitoring your internet use, that’s another story.

    2. LCL*

      We’re not forbidden from browsing, yet.
      I limit myself to news sites, ask a manager, and technical related searches. I will go to Youtube if a link comes up on a technical search, but I don’t start by going to the site, so I will stay focused and not distracted. I never go to reddit on a work computer.
      I am not active on facebook, and don’t have a twitter account, so that’s not an issue.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 to this (news, AAM, work related), except I do have a FB account, but I won’t access it from work.

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      Tbh, I only browse Ask A Manager when there’s no one else around…I’m nervous people who don’t know what the site is will assume I’m only on here to look for job hunting advice! I don’t use social media at work because there’s too high of a chance that something weird will pop up.

      1. Just Employed Here*

        And a lot of us *are* here (also) for the job hunting advice.

        Plus, I don’t want coworkers (not even the annoying one) to see the headlines, in case the headline that day happens to be “What can I do about my annoying coworker?”. They don’t know I read pretty much every post here, so they might think I actually googled that sentence. Or even worse, that I googled it and *wanted* them to see I did it.

    4. Lupin Lady*

      My ‘rules’ are similar to yours. I don’t really visit forums often unless they relate to a search I’m doing for work, but sometimes I’ll search for info on current news events I’m interested in. I’m also fine with, say, googling my chiropractor’s phone number because in 3 years I’ve never saved their phone number to my phone and I need to make an appointment.

      I’ll allow myself to research interesting topics if they’re remotely related to finance, even if they have no intersection with my finance-type job. I will occasionally go on LinkedIn briefly, but Facebook I keep on my phone for lunch breaks.

    5. Murphy*

      I often am not busy enough, and there’s only so much work I can make for myself…as long as it’s nothing inappropriate, I generally go for it.

      1. Goya de la Mancha*

        Same. I’m online a lot…a lot a lot. There isn’t a lot I don’t do – outside of the standard NSFW type stuff. Sometimes it’s a full day of googling ideas for layouts/pictures/etc., others it’s a few hours of buzzfeed quizzes.

        That being said, my work is always done and is priority #1.

        1. Catleesi*

          Same here. I spend A LOT of time browsing the internet. Planning vacation, looking for recipes, reading blogs, I’d say most of my day is taken up by it. Work comes first but that doesn’t take up much of my time.

          I’d rather be doing work to be honest.

      2. Lynn Whitehat*

        Yeah. I used to care if I was obviously on a “fun” site, but I gave up. You wanted an open floor plan, you got it, buddy.

    6. GoodDawn*

      I use my phone to browse for anything at work with the exception of food delivery/pick up orders. I watch others do all sorts of stuff, BUT I’m not giving the company any reason to bring up what I do on company time. It’s been my experience that IT only looks at your history after they have cause (iow, they’re looking for a reason to write you up/fire you), but why give them any ammo at all?

      1. Spreadsheets*

        Agreed! I also make sure I hop off of the company WiFi for anything job-search related. Sometimes I want to review a job description or something real quick and I definitely don’t want that to be a reason for my employer to kick me to the curb.

    7. JokeyJules*

      I always avoid anything NSFW or a personal topic (grooming, skincare, etc) at work. But how much I browse or what I’m browsing mostly depends on my workload. A lot of us will have netflix, music, or a podcast on in the background, but it’s always something safe like The Office, nothing too crazy NSFW for music, or NPR or a cooking podcast. If I’m having a particularly light workload that day, I don’t feel weird comparing products or prices for things I need, and I know other coworkers are on Facebook. I go on AAM or Refinery 29 (not all articles but I love the money diaries!!) mostly.
      The general consensus is nothing that is inappropriate or makes others uncomfortable, and nothing too distracting for others.

    8. Totally Minnie*

      I’ve had coworkers who lost their jobs for dating sites, gambling sites, and stock market activity, in addition to the things you’ve listed. So those things should definitely go on the “don’t” list.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Why stock market activity? Do you work for a financial agency or one where conflicts of interest might be an issue?
        (It’s not something I’d think of as being problematic, in most cases, and I’m curious as to whether that’s me overlooking something obvious, or if it is more specific to your type of work),

        1. Totally Minnie*

          I work for a government agency, so an employee working to increase their personal wealth using government computers/bandwidth while on the clock is a no-no.

          1. Doc in a Box*

            Aren’t they increasing their personal wealth every time they get a paycheck? (Shutdowns notwithstanding.)

            I used to work at a VA so I get that rules around what can/can’t be done are often more about optics than real risk of harm, but I never realized that checking my retirement portfolio or pay statements (which could ONLY be accessed from a government computer) was a no-no.

    9. Excel Wizard*

      I am okay with browsing Ask A Manager at work, although I try and make sure no one sees me doing so. Other than that, I try and not be on the internet at all unless it is work related. Although I know others browse news sites, Groupon, personal emails, and do some Amazon shopping throughout the day. All of which is not a problem (for our work environment) at all.

    10. Squeeble*

      I also avoid Reddit and I try to avoid social media generally, although I often break down when it comes to Twitter. Sites that I think are okay are AAM and other advice columns, real estate sites like Zillow, and Apartment Therapy. If an advice column has a particularly racy headline one day, though, I usually avoid it because I don’t want that showing up on the back end…

    11. DaniCalifornia*

      No one can really see my screen but it seems that in my small office, it’s normal to browse appropriate websites that include social media, shopping. Esp on lunch. I often eat lunch at my desk and I’ve never worried about if someone walks by and sees me on facebook.

      I do browse Reddit but I have the NSFW posts disabled/hidden so no images appear unless you actually click on the link itself.

    12. JHunz*

      I reddit at work, but some of it is work-related answering tech support questions on the company sub. It’s hard to imagine a more casual office environment than this one, though. Half of my team is watching AGDQ runs on their second monitors this week while they work.

    13. it_guy*

      I hate to admit it, but I’m a youtube junky. I’ll have something going on in the background while I’m working on something that takes minimal thought.

      1. Nessun*

        I work in an open concept office, and YouTube is sometimes my savior. Can’t handle the noise (or can’t handle the quiet) – pop on a video and pick my poison. As long as no one else can hear it through my headphones, the choices are wide open. And luckily no one can come up behind me, since I sit at a window.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I use social media on my phone. I stick to “reading” on my work PC but if I’m going to comment places, usually done on my phone

      I do shop infrequently if I know what I want. I also did all my change of address stuff on my work computer since it’s easier than a mobile device. I read the news and SFW blogs.

      But tbh that’s me outside of work too.

    15. Anonymeece*

      I’ll admit to sneaking onto Buzzfeed occasionally. It’s not a huge deal in my office – the front desk actually usually watches Netflix – but occasionally I’ll accidentally click on something that turns out to be NSFW and am terrified our IT is going to flag me. So far not yet, but it remains a fear of mine!

    16. Eccentric Smurf*

      I never use the Internet for non-work stuff unless I’m on lunch. During lunch, I might browse the news or blogs/articles related to my area of expertise. Any browsing that’s purely social or personal (related to hobbies and such) I do from home.

    17. Not worth it*

      It depends on what level you are at your company. If you are low on the totem pole no internet unless its for work, and even then be wary. If you are mid level then news sites, and professional resources. If you are high level anything is open.

      Forums, blogs, shopping, social media are usually a no go because they are a scammer/hackers easy way into the system and if/when management changes they change what your allowed to use the internet for but your internet history is always there. If its not for work use your phone internet, its really not worth being written up or fired to be on the internet.

    18. Susan*

      My barrier is low – I browse most things freely. Of course I WFH, so no one to see the computer IRL – but I know at any time they could look at my history. No porn (of course), no social media (too afraid that I would leave myself logged on), but I do browse/shop. And my company culture is such that we share links in slack to news articles, dog + cat pictures, etc. openly – so folks know we look. A few years ago I found out that Netflix was a large part of the network traffic – might even have been the majority – in the main office of my company, which shocked the heck out of me.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Conversely, I work from home and do absolutely NO personal anything on my work computer — because I have two personal computers, a tablet and my phone all within arms reach. :)

    19. MissDisplaced*

      Totally OK:
      -Professional resources, industry news, research sites, webinars, and social media IF social media is your job. (I work in communications so I actually am on social a lot because I’m supposed to be).
      -Web-based work software for website creation, email, etc.
      -Stock photo sites or necessary work resources
      -YouTube if you need a How-To video for work purposes

      Ok in quick bursts if you must: though most of this is done on your mobile phone.
      -personal banking
      -quick shopping/ordering
      -paying a bill
      -chats like WhatsApp, Jabber, etc if not work related
      -reservations
      -winning/paying for an Ebay auction
      -lunch delivery
      -checking news or your social quickly or during your lunch break

      Not ok:
      -porn or questionable pay sites
      -chat boards like Reddit (because of hacking)
      -purchasing from questionable websites
      -writing your blog
      -playing games
      -downloading questionable things
      -applying for jobs
      -chatting all day via IM
      -working on freelance jobs
      -visiting off-color websites or political propaganda websites
      -watching movies or videos not work related
      -BitTorrent websites

      Basically, remember this: Big Corporate Brother is watching.
      Will they care about a 10 minute shoe and clothing purchase from Zulily? Probably not.
      But I guarantee your IT department will visit you if you’ve downloaded terrabytes from The Pirate Bay.

      1. SJ*

        “chat boards like Reddit (because of hacking)”

        The number of people in this thread who have no clue how Reddit works is staggering.

    20. Ursula*

      I use pretty much the same rules you do. Some of the news sites I frequent (the Gizmodo Media Group sites, Slate) have absolutely no problem reporting on risque topics, so sometimes I worry, “if IT happened to look at that headline, would I get in trouble?” but it hasn’t happened yet. I love advice columns (obviously) and sometimes their headlines are…. extremely problematic. But I figure if I did ever get in trouble, being able to point out that they’re all well-known news sites would probably help in my defense.

    21. kittymommy*

      I tend to go by the idea that if its a sight that I can justify going to for my job, then it’s fine to go for it for personal stuff. So Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin are fine. I’ll do some “window” shopping for myself (Amazon, department stores) but I’ll wait to purchase. I have very rarely had to use my personal email for work, so I’ll check that. Reddit, online forums, are a no. Too risky for what might pop up in the images.

      Sometimes I don’t think I should worry too much about it. In a previous position w/same company I had to google some medical diseases/injuries. If I can pull those up , anything I do now should be cake.

    22. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My job sometimes has a lot of what I call “hurry up and wait”–those times when I am tied to a hot project and don’t want to start something new because I know it will be interrupted in 5 or 15 minutes. I will let myself refresh my brain by reading things unrelated to what I do in the real world, or looking at beautiful photos. That way I’m ready to go when I get the word.
      The biggest thing I’ve learned is I can’t read the comment sections of most social media sites. That’s one reason I really appreciate this page. Because Alison moderates it so carefully, I can read the comments section without worrying that I am going to stumble across nastiness that will make me unproductive the rest of the day!

      1. Windchime*

        I also have a lot of “hurry up and wait” spells during my day. Like running a report that will take 4 minutes; it’s not really long enough to start something else. So I’ll check the news while I wait. I read AAM while I eat my lunch, but I do that on my phone. Other than that, I strictly use the internet for work stuff while I’m working. I work for a state agency and we are not supposed to use state resources for personal business. I know some people stream music on their work computer but I avoid that; if I want to listen to music or a podcast, I use my phone.

    23. Hannah*

      I think it really depends on what your job is.

      For example, in my position, my work is 100% “get stuff done on a computer” work. I NEVER don’t have anything to do. So I would say, anything that makes it clear you are spending more than a couple of minutes, like something really in-depth to read, or a game, or watching netflix.

      But at my last job, some of my job was considered “coverage” where sometimes I didn’t have much to do, and I did sometimes play games or read longer things.

      Also be careful what ads you are likely to get! Once I was bra shopping off the clock, and the next day my browser was filled with women wearing only their bras! ACK. Had to shut those ads down real quick. Lol.

    24. Former Retail Manager*

      Interestingly, the only sites I ever really visit at work are AAM, Amazon, and a plethora of women’s clothing and shoe sites. As long as it’s clearly not inappropriate content, I see no issue with what you’re browsing. My own personal rule is more related to the amount of time I spend. I get two 15 minute breaks each day, so I make an effort to not exceed that amount of time. All that said, I know for a fact that my boss loves news sites (tons of them), the occasional funny animal YouTube video, and does stuff on websites related to personal stuff (like paying his daughter’s college tuition.) Again, I think time vs. content is the more relevant issue.

    25. Marion Ravenwood*

      I work in comms, so I use the internet quite a lot for research or to find stories for our social media feeds/jumping off points for blogs or articles. In terms of personal internet use, I only really do that on my lunch break or if there really isn’t anything else I can be doing. (It goes without saying that work is always the priority and I won’t be online if there’s other things I can be doing, or if a new task comes in.)

      The sites I tend to visit are things like AAM, news sites (mainly the Guardian), a bit of personal email/social media – though not my side hustle emails which I check and reply to on my phone – and occasionally some shopping if it’s going to be quick and/or urgent. Sometimes I’ll watch YouTube on my lunch break as well if someone I follow has a new video up. I’ll also do things like use Google Maps to look up where something is if I’m going out after work, and use office wifi to listen to Spotify on my phone if I’m doing a task that suits.

      I think for me that (unless it’s my lunch break) a lot of it is about timing. I feel five minutes here and there is considered a lot more acceptable than an hour-long block outside the ‘typical’ lunch period, even if you’re doing the latter and then working the rest of the day.

  10. Amber Rose*

    As promised, here is a picture of my new work friend the cardboard deer head. I’m not sure what his name is yet, but I am sure he needs googly eyes and a bow tie. Click my name for the picture.

    I’m so glad my boss let me put him up here, he’s way too tacky for home.

    In other news, we’re attempting an actual reporting structure in a company that never had one and people are being absolute babies about it. I get not loving change, but other companies are not gonna be any better, so what are they hoping to accomplish by being insubordinate?

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Totally not what I was expecting, but I like it.

      My home office has 2 real deer mounts in it. One used to live at my son’s apartment and wore sunglasses, Mardi Gras beads, and a trucker hat. He’s just au natureal now.

    3. Karen from Finance*

      I feel you about the reporting structure, I’m in a similar situation. It’s exhausting trying to change a company culture in that way.

      I love the deer head!

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s a lot of posturing. People who have been here since the cowboy days and managed their own work are not happy about being assigned managers and are resisting any kind of management because they have seniority and ugh. It’s just ridiculous.

        I wanna call him Steve. Is it too cliche?

        1. Marion Ravenwood*

          No! Steve was actually my first thought for his name. (Though I’m biased because it’s a bit of a running joke amongst a certain group of my friends…)

      2. MountainBikingVampireWitch*

        I love your name. I thought Trixie and Katya were making Karen up, but I guess she’s real.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          She’s an actual drag queen, who I learned about through Trixie and Katya. I agree with them that it’s the best drag queen name.

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      I was given an inflatable moose head several years back. I hung him above the fireplace at home, because it’s so ludicrous. He needs re-inflating – his horns are drooping.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I wish I knew why I was given this thing. It’s just so odd.

        I had to tape some of his prongs on since the cardboard is a bit flimsy.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah blessed souls who can’t handle change. Welcome to the story of my life.

      I just smile at them and don’t respond. Telling them to try out another employer for size won’t do a darn thing, these people never seem to leave the company, despite hating everything always.

      1. Amber Rose*

        They don’t complain to me. My boss complains to me about them, and then gives me a list of tweaks in procedure to try and get people in line. I like the broad changes, but I’m annoyed at all the little changes I have to remember because people won’t just grow the hell up.

        We desperately need this. I can’t understand how they can’t see that. I’ve known it for years. Our most oblivious new hire saw it within the first couple hours.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          They only see what they want to.

          They probably love feeling like some kind of roaming cowboy without reporting structures, doing what they want.

          Don’t look at me. I’ve been known to say “it’s not the wild west up in here, we’ve got rules, guys!”.

          Thank God we’re small and the reporting structure is never an issue.

  11. Anon-anon*

    Can anyone recommend a reasonably “professional-looking” visor to wear while working in an office cubicle to block overhead fluorescent lighting?

    1. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      If it’s the type with the multiple bulbs per unit, would your building management be receptive to shutting off a few of the bulbs? I have one of those above me, and I had them take out two of the three bulbs and it was perfect.

      1. Natalie*

        Alternatively, they should be able to install some filters/diffusers pretty easily. We did this all the time in building management.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        I asked them to do that at my former workplace because the lights gave me migraines, and the CEO threw a fit. He also insisted everyone had matching chairs.
        Open offices. HATE HATE HATE them.

      4. NW Mossy*

        That’s exactly what we did for my new employee. I’ve also seen people use sun shades (similar to what you’d put behind the front windshield of a parked car) to block too much light coming in from the floor-to-ceiling windows.

    2. Temperance*

      Does it need to be a visor? I’m wondering if sunglasses (or slightly tinted glasses) might do the trick. I’m not sure that professional-looking visors exist, unfortunately.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        But sunglasses inside isn’t much more professional than a visor!

        I would just ask management for the OK to wear a hat with a brim…

        Which feels so odd to say coming from the woman who’s never had a dress code of any sort. Liesss, six months of a temp job in medical records but we still wore jeans.

        1. Temperance*

          I think that it’s slightly better than a visor? I know that sunglasses aren’t great, but I’ve occasionally had to wear them indoors or at an event with bright lights (migraines lol) and it’s weird but manageable.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Fair point. Especially if you had a pair that somewhat resembled eyeglasses. Not mirrored aviators or huge decorative ones.

        2. Batshua*

          I wear tinted glasses at work, but the frames are NOT the kind you’d associate with sunglasses. I don’t know if that’d work for you…

          1. TechWorker*

            If the problem is the light coming from directly above then sunglasses might not really help anyway.

            (I feel your pain, when the light above me was fixed I basically immediately got a migraine and had to ask the fixer to take the bulb out again..)

    3. Rebecca*

      Oh I feel your pain. Many years ago, we came to work one Monday morning to an open office lit so brightly we had to wear visors or sunglasses. HR assured us the company they hired to redo the lighting said it was the correct light for our office. After several days of headaches and wearing visors, we got a step stool and took out half the light tubes and put them in the supply closet. Problem solved.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      We used to turn on only half of the lights in our area, which made it noticeably dark (and comfy) but now more people have moved in and they seem to think light is a good thing. :(

      The landlord is very diligent about replacing bulbs so it would be a never ending set of requests to remove some.

      I am very tempted to put up a patio umbrella to block the ones that glare into my eyes. Or build a tent over my desk. I think I’ll be doomed to simply darken as many reflective surfaces as I can find.

      1. zora*

        Two thoughts about the lights:
        1. About the landlord always replacing bulbs, you can ask them to remove some bulbs and then put a post-it note on each fixture saying “Keep only 1 bulb” or whatever.

        2. There are also filters that can be installed inside the plastic cover of the light. It’s basically like colored cellophane that mutes the light or turns it colors. It comes up on a simple Amazon search. You could ask your landlord to put some of that up, and then it doesn’t change anything on their end.

      2. Arjay*

        Ikea makes a “leaf” that attaches to the cubicle wall and shades you from the light. There are also less fanciful looking shades like at cubeshield.com, for example. This of course works best if you have a permanent seat assignment.

        1. Windchime*

          A woman at work has one of these. We don’t see public customers in our area, and nobody has said anything about it not looking professional to her. I don’t know whether or not it helps.

      3. TheTallestOneEver*

        Our landlord puts small circular stickers on the ceiling fixtures to note where someone’s asked to have lights removed. For example, if someone only wants two working bulbs in a three bulb fixture, it gets one sticker and they keep a dead bulb in the third slot. That stops our hard working maintenance team from replacing a bulb where one isn’t wanted, and the sticker makes it clear that the bulb is out by request.

    5. Totally Minnie*

      I don’t think I’d recommend a visor, but as someone who had a medical condition that required hats in the office for several months, I think there are a lot of attractive options you could go with that would help. You can look for things like fedoras, newsboy caps, and sun hats with a shorter, less floppy brim. Those options would block the light, but would look like a fashion choice in a way that a visor wouldn’t.

      And I’d recommend talking to your supervisor as well. If your dress code doesn’t allow for hats on a regular basis, you may be able to ask for an accommodation based on your light sensitivity.

    6. KR*

      Does your company have any Swag baseball caps? I have some with my company logo that I wear sometimes. or if there’s a professional or regulatory body in your field you could get some swag with their logo?

    7. Amber Rose*

      Is it the brightness or the fluorescence? If it’s the latter, then I recommend some blue light blocking glasses. You can get them tinted or untinted so you’re not wearing orange goggles, and they really help with the headaches.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      There are video monitor sun shade / hoods on Amazon
      Compushade monitor hood

      It also looks like they make something called Cozy Shades and GlareShades which soften the fluorescent lights.

      I’m so with you though. I once put up an umbrella over my monitors because the stupid office had really bright fluorescent lights that hung down low over the desks. Horrible. I got migraines from them. Yeah. Left that job.

  12. Kramerica Industries*

    Just went through my first salary negotiation an hour ago! After studying up on this site and preparing my arguments, I was ready. The only thing I forgot was to prepare the number that I want. For context, I’ve been at my organization for 3 years an am moving internally.

    When I asked the hiring manager for a higher salary, I didn’t receive any push back. She said “How much do you want? Because we’re already offering a 10% raise, I need HR approval to offer anything higher”. I ended up saying “low to mid 60s” out of panic (they were offering $59k). Thinking about it now though, $65k would be my sweet spot. Is there any way I can salvage this and flat-out ask for $65k? Or should I just wait for an answer and be glad if I get anything at all?

    1. Beehoppy*

      They’re offering you a 10% raise right now and need approval for anything higher. By my calculations, $65 would be more like a 22% raise – that seems like a big jump from their offer and I think you’re better off waiting to see what they come back with.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d just stick my head in her office or follow up in email. “You asked for a number on the raise conversation we had earlier, and I gave you a range. For clarity in your conversation with HR, I’m asking $65k.”

      Adjust for tone/etc based on your relationship with your boss.

    3. fposte*

      Is “just” earlier today or yesterday? Then I think you could do a quick followup email saying “I realize that in the moment I wasn’t specific about my desired salary–I’d like to see if $65k is a possibility.”

      1. Gerald*

        I would also aim to put reasons in that email, if there are some. “I am following up on our discussion with an exact amount, based on research / comparables / added value of skills…. “

  13. Karen from Finance*

    Hi! I have a question on dealing with a difficult coworker.

    He is the contact from whom I need to get monthly data. It’s not something hard that I’m asking him to do: all he has to do is compile the data in a list and let me know when it’s done so I can do my reports. Instead, his files are broken and incomplete. Every month it’s a struggle where there’s a back and forth of emails that go:

    – Hey can you update the data
    – It’s updated!
    – Hey I’m still missing the following data: […]
    – Done!
    – Hi, yeah I’m still missing the following figures, would you kindly…

    Up until I reach my own data and I end up doing my own calculations and assumptions on it, because I can’t hold off on my presentation because of one asshole.

    This has been escalated several times but the problem is the guy is a charlatan and I think the CEO buys it (though not my own boss).

    Last month I had a meeting with him, his assistant and my boss, where I went through all the issues with him, told him what I need, and why it’s important and how the situation can’t go on as is. He agreed to start doing one single list and to fix it retroactively for the past few months. My mistake was not sending an email about what was agreed *right away*, but I did start sending him reminders “hey can you send me the data”, which were ignored. I stopped by his desk last week and he told me he needs me to explain what I need from him (??? SERIOUSLY IT’S ONE LIST, LITERALLY). So I sent him an email again. It’s been almost a month since our meeting, and again we’re behind schedule.

    I just sent him an email similar to this post, with bullet points of the issues, and stating everything that had been discussed in the meeting and everything. I CC’d my boss, the CEO and another executive. So he replied “Hi, I’m sorry for the delay, I understand this is important, I’m working on it and I’ll get it by next week”.

    This response soothes the executives but it doesn’t soothe me because he does this EVERY TIME. He won’t get it by next week, he won’t get it before my own report is due, but any complaint will be “oh but now he’s working on it”. It’s driving me insane.

    1. I work on a Hellmouth*

      Yeah, this would drive me freaking nuts.

      I guess keep everyone copied on every single follow up? Maybe your CEO will buy less of Data Dave’s bs if they see the pattern unfolding real time?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I love how almost everyone started calling him Data Dave after this. I’m kinda renaming him to that in my head already.

    2. AnonEMoose*

      This may not be an entirely satisfying solution, but it might save you some time/headaches if it’s feasible. Is it the same data every month? Not the same numbers, but the same pieces of information?

      Like, you need X sales figures and Y expenditures and Z units sold (or something similar to that)?

      If that’s the case, could you provide him with a spreadsheet with the appropriate fields and all he has to do is “fill in the blanks,” essentially? It’s more work on your part up front, and you shouldn’t have to do it. But it might make your life easier in the long run. No idea if that’s feasible, but it’s a possible thought, anyway.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Gah, this is what drives me nuts: this spreadsheet ALREADY EXISTS.

        It’s essentially a list of products and prices that we need updated each month. Each month he needs to add a new column and add the prices for each product, and if there are new products, add them separetely.

        He’ll either not update it, update it partially, update it but only for the products already on the list but not add any new products, add the new products somewhere else, or – most maddeningly – direct me to another file to calculate it myself (and that other file has broken formulas which urghhh).

        I’m not exaggerating when I say: all he has to do is gather the data in a darn list.

            1. Karen from Finance*

              I have to say that getting sympathy from you in particular with all that you deal with is particularly comforting.

              1. I work on a Hellmouth*

                You can’t let the face biting spiders make you jaded. This guy is clearly a grade-A frustrating dink.

        3. mr. brightside*

          …okay that sounds actually deliberate. The question is always incompetence or malice, and I’ve had to play that guessing game a few times. But if it’s the same damn data pull every single month, in that kind of format? Yeah, no. This guy is sabotaging.

          I might have missed it, sounds like you’ve talked to a lot of higher ups, have you talked to his boss? Because this sounds like a conversation your boss needs to have with his boss, with all of the documented instances in their hands.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            His boss would be the CEO, who is aware that we have this struggle every month. But because Data Dave is just so good at BS, he will respond to escalations either feigning ignorance (“will you tell Karen to write me? I don’t understand what she needs from me” even though he does) or saying feigning competence (“oh I’m about to send that!” – which he doesn’t / “I just sent that!” – and it’s incomplete). But CEOs never do have the time to follow up on every email they are copied to, so I understand that he will believe the person on his team.

            My own boss is the CFO and we both report to the other executive I’m CC’ing in these emails. They are both aware of the problem on our end, but so far they’ve been treating it as an acceptable excuse for why that part of my own report is always a bit iffy. I haven’t seen them push him on it so far.

            I might need to document better and then set up a meeting with the CEO and show him, but that sounds …. extreme?

            1. mr. brightside*

              Oy. Your CEO sucks but I hope he’ll change?

              And if it’s going to backlash on you and your work, can you see about getting access to the data yourself so you don’t need him anymore? It puts more on you, but between that and “look bad because someone else didn’t do his job and no one cares”… :S

                2. mr. brightside*

                  Yeah, ideally I’d say “don’t do his job” but if you need his stuff to do your job and you’re starting to look back and attempt after attempt isn’t helping… you might have to choose between losing the staring contest with this guy, and getting your job done.

            2. Parenthetically*

              It sounds exhausting! But documenting further and meeting with his boss seems like the logical next step to me. “CEO, I have to have at least ten back-and-forth emails with Fergus for each report despite the fact that I have thoroughly instructed him on occasions X, Y, and Z, and in meeting A on B date, and with document C sent on D, E, F, and G dates at his request. In 11 of the last 12 reports, my final report was based not on his data, which was incomplete despite no fewer than H reminders from me on each occasion, but on my estimates and calculations. Retrieving this data and sending it on to me is a monthly task that should take Fergus approximately I-J number of minutes; I estimate I have spent K number of hours on average per month in the last six months requesting this information from Fergus, reminding him to complete the forms repeatedly, sending back incomplete forms with requests for complete data, meeting with Fergus, and doing his calculation work FOR HIM.”

              When you get incomplete data from him, are you replying-all and saying, “Fergus, this is still incomplete.”?

              Also, seriously, I would have to take up kickboxing or something just to deal with my primal rage at this dude.

              1. Karen from Finance*

                I’ve been refraining from copying everyone in every follow-up because of that fear of being annoying. This thread is making me realize that this is a mistake and something I need to work on. Will definitely start doing this, yes, just so they are aware of how persistent the problem is. If the amount of email annoys them, let it.. it sure annoys me…

                1. mr. brightside*

                  Absolutely annoy them. And if they tell you to knock it off, follow up sweetly and ask how they’d like to be kept informed in the future of this on-going issue that risks timely completion of deliverables.

                2. Blunt Bunny*

                  Yes I would start stating deadlines rather than him saying I’ll get to it next week. Say I need X by next Friday to complete this presentation. CC the persons that are involved in presentation and report. Then when there are meetings or updates on where the information is needed, say I am still waiting and forward all the emails asking for updates. Do not do it yourself if he doesn’t do it, or the figures are wrong they don’t go into the report. That way the CEO and other people will start to see the need for him to actually do his job properly either the data is important and need to included or not. You shouldn’t be worrying on their behalf.

                3. Arts Akimbo*

                  Maybe screenshot the number of emails you’ve sent to Dave so you can show the CEO a visual of just how many times you’ve had to email this guy about this one problem, how much time you’ve spent trying to solve it. Tell him nicely that you thus far haven’t been cc’ing him on all the emails, but from now on you’ll be sure to include him so that he can see where you and Dave are in the process.

                  He really needs to start managing this guy.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              He’s extreme.
              Make a running chart showing each month the number of time you have to make a request of any sort. Briefly describe the problem, add the date and time.
              You might be able to reconstruct this through emails you have now, if you did not delete them.
              Then show the parts that you estimated each month because he never answered.
              One thing I have noticed is that when I get all serious and business-like the bosses tend to do in that same direction.
              I am not clear where your boss is in all this. But your boss should be advocating for you. Be sure to loop your boss in that you are now keeping a record of the requests you have to put in each month to complete a repetitive and familiar task. Ask your boss if there is another way you can get this information. Or ask if Dave can be in charge of doing the report each month, since he has all the information.
              The other thing I would ask, “If it doesn’t matter if Dave gets this info to me, then how important is this report and do I really need to be doing it?” You can also help them to think about how the report is used as in are they making critical decisions off this report.

              If the higher ups are not taking the problem seriously ask them if they think this is the best use of your time to be repeatedly asking Dave the same questions each month. Ask them how many more months will you be doing this to allow Dave to “catch on” to the task. At what point should Dave be able to do the task with little to no prompts from you?

              But yes, if people act like five year olds then use remedies you would with a five year old. Count the numbers of time he does this each month and the amount of time you sink into the task yourself because of prompting him to do his job. You know there are unemployed people out there who would happily take Dave’s job and do very well with it. You would not see this kindergarten stuff from them.

            4. Not Me*

              Stop reminding him and leave that portion of your report blank. Note that you did not receive the necessary data by the agreed upon deadline. When asked why it wasn’t received refer back to the last time he emailed “won’t happen again”

              You’re taking responsibility for his job when he isn’t. Stop doing that. Let him fail.

              Or, if you don’t want to do that then ask he be taken out of the loop entirely and do it yourself. Sounds like it would be more efficient to do than to continue bothering him for it.

        4. Ali G*

          Oh Heck No.
          I’d be tempted to treat him like the child he is:
          Every month set a calendar reminder for you to send him a reminder email of what he needs to get you and when he needs to get it to you by. Copy all parties, and be very specific:
          “Hi Dave,
          As a reminder I need you to update the data spreadsheet by X date. Please remember to update the prices, add new products, etc. (List EVERYTHING he should be doing). Note I need this completed by X so that I can compile A, B and C for the Big Meeting on Y date.”
          If he directs you somewhere else – (again – copy everyone even if he takes them off) “Dave, I am sorry but I do not have time to figure out your other spreadsheet with it’s broken formula – please update the spreadsheet.”
          Start sending him reminders 3 days out. If he misses the deadline, ask him when he will do it, again with everyone copied. Make them see how much of a problem he is being (and also simultaneously calling him out on his BS behavior.

          1. AnonEMoose*

            Yep, all of this. Right now he’s getting away with making it your problem, and everyone needs to see where the problem actually is.

        5. Uncategorized Rejections*

          Okay, maybe try being helpful to him?

          “Data Dave, it every month this data is needed. Yet the spreadsheets are never ready or available. Perhaps you would benefit from an Excel (or whatever database) refresher. Our IT training is doing a course on MM/DD”

          Or

          “Data Dave, as this data report is required every month and it is obvious that this is not high on your priority list, perhaps you can assign this to your admin. My dept would be willing to train her on the spreadsheet software.”

        6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Maybe I misread but doesn’t he have an assistant? That sounds like something they could easily do for him. He’s just lazy and hates the task.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            He has an assistant. She updated the spreadsheet once, did it wrong (I’m pretty sure he never walked her through it or anything, and she clearly didn’t figure it out), and he stepped in again after I pointed out that half the spreadheet was “#N/A” values. I’m keeping the assistant in the loop because I’m assuming she’ll take this task eventually but I’m not going to train her for him.

            Yes, every step in this has been exasperating.

    3. Lupin Lady*

      I have a similar problem. My solution that seems to work is being crystal clear in your emails almost to the point of rudeness. “Hi X, I need this list by DATE (btw, give yourself a buffer) and the fields I need are A,B,C….X,Y,Z” and give him lots of notice (yes, every month) just for the optics if he doesn’t deliver. And I don’t hesitate to innocently say “I’m waiting for the data from X” if anyone asks me. Good luck!

    4. The Tin Man*

      That sounds like a pain and already anything I’d suggest is implemented. I’m guessing he is the logical person to get this information? If he’s not the only one maybe you can suggest another person to take this task? Not ideal because he is basically being rewarded for not doing a task by having it taken a way but your #1 priority is to get what you need to get your work done. Maybe even raising the question of someone else (who is very much not you) could cause ripples.

      I don’t love that idea because of the risk of the “other person” becoming you, but something’s gotta change.

    6. Data Miner*

      Good lord, the level of management you’re doing is exhausting! It sounds like you’re boss is in the know, but I’d continue to keep him in the loop regularly, cc him when this dude starts to be an idiot and use your manager to escalate. Your manager may be able to wield some muscle, but if not, than you have standing to go to him and say that this dude is preventing you from doing your work on time and hopefully put this on your manager to fix. Because seriously, no one needs to be managed this hard!

    7. The New Wanderer*

      “Up until I reach my own data and I end up doing my own calculations and assumptions on it, because I can’t hold off on my presentation because of one asshole.”

      Actually, my suggestion is to do exactly this. Every time. Give whatever you can of the presentation and where the missing data is, put “Data not received from Fergus by X date as agreed on.” Or alternately, postpone your presentation with the reason: “Pending data from Fergus, not received by X date as agreed on.” (or similar phrasing that absolutely puts the responsibility on Fergus)

      I dunno if that would actually be a good idea but making it explicit every month that this guy is not doing his job may be the only way to really raise to the CEO the impact it’s having on the reports. Sure he’s “working on it” but it’s not getting done.

      1. Gumby*

        I once worked at a company where there was a large stuffed animal – like 4 feet tall – that would mysteriously end up in your seat if you did something that was causing delays or problems for the group as a whole. No one wanted to have a visit from the dunce bear. (Yes, that is what we called him.) It was all good-natured and he sometimes migrated around the office even w/o cause but if he still existed he could have a permanent home in Data Dave’s office.

      2. CM*

        I agree with this. I wouldn’t specific that it wasn’t received as agreed upon — I’d literally just say “Data not received” and leave it at that. Also, I would actually DO the presentation and, when you get to the part where the data isn’t there, just say in a neutral, friendly tone of voice, “Unfortunately we don’t have the data for X yet” and move on.

        If the higher ups start to push back, the answer is really simple, “I asked Fergus to give me the data by [date] and he didn’t. I don’t know why.” If they keep pushing after that, “I’m not Fergus’ manager so I can’t really control what he does. Maybe [Fergus’ actual manager] will know more about what’s going on.”

        I think the issue here is that Fergus’ manager is the one who should be dealing with him if he’s not getting the data in on time — and maybe there’s a legitimate reason, but, if so, that’s something Fergus’ manager and the OP’s manager should work out, in terms of what a reasonable expectation for the project is. By chasing Fergus around this much, the OP is really doing something that’s not (or at least shoudn’t be) their responsibility and it might actually be preventing the people who ARE responsible from stepping in.

    8. Blue*

      Is compiling the data something the assistant can do or at least help facilitate? If so, I wonder if Annoying Guy could be cut out altogether (I mean, it sounds like he doesn’t think this is worth his time and attention, so maybe he’d be happy to pass it off)

      1. Karen from Finance*

        The assistant can, she tried to do it once but failed. I don’t think the guy walked her through the file and she was uninterested or unable to figure it out by herself completely.

        In either case I hold him accountable because he’s free to assign whichever tasks he wants to the assistant, but I’m not getting it from either one of them at the moment so it still falls on him.

        1. valentine*

          Apart from sexism, there is no reason you should have to harass Dave into doing a simple, routine task. Why don’t the attendees look up the numbers themselves, even if it’s during the meeting? Can Dave go to the meeting and present the numbers himself or would he just throw you under the sexist bus again? I’m assuming there’s a due date each month and Dave knows it. After giving the CFO and CEO the chart Not So New Reader suggests, tell the CFO you’re done babysitting Dave and trying to do his work for him. If necessary, frame it as preventing Dave from owning this task of his. Do your presentation and refer the attendees to the spreadsheet, even if it’s via a blank/incomplete/incorrect printed page. Add a note: “Pending Dave’s update.”

          1. Karen from Finance*

            My report/presentation is for the company leadership, which they use for decision-making. Dave’s data is a component of the report, but builds into the overall model. So what’s been happening is I will do my presentation and I’ll say “and this line here is my own projection as we’re still pending update from [client]”. Because they care about the overall figure and I think they trust my estimates, it doesn’t bother them as much. The meeting progresses and they take my caveat as valid. Which it is. But it’s my job to care that the number we present is the actual one. This will bring us trouble later on. I’m presenting a distorted figure and I’m wasting a lot of time chasing the guy around and making numbers up just to have SOMETHING.

            I’m torn on whether they buy into this dude’s crap, if they don’t but don’t want to fire him for some reason, or if they like having him around because charlatans can be useful for client-facing roles sometimes. I have no idea.

    9. Midlife Tattoos*

      Reply all on the e-mail and say, “Fergus, for the last X months, you’ve gone beyond the deadline for this data. As we discussed, I have to have a complete and correct list by Y to finish my reports. Since this continues to be an issue, we need to address this.”

  14. Triplestep*

    Help, please talk me down!

    TLDR: I verbally accepted a job offer with a large consultancy, and when I finally got the electronic version of the offer letter, it indicates I’ll be reporting to someone I thought would be my peer. Is this a huge red flag? Is this normal in consulting where you are there to please the client first and foremost? I really want to take this job and I guess what I want to hear is that this is not a big deal.

    Here are the details: I am trying to say this succinctly, but there’s a kind of lengthy backstory. Several months ago, the Head of a “Group Practice” that is part of a larger consultancy reached out to me to tell me about an opportunity. I have never worked for this consultancy, but they are very large and well known in my field and peripherally related fields. I have worked alongside of their employees in the past. It’s not the first time I’ve been considered for a role with them, but I have never been put in front of one of their clients for one reason or another. (Either I decided the opportunity was not right for me, they didn’t end up getting the contract after all, whatever. Suffice to say they know about me, I know about them.)

    This role was particularly appealing to me because it is remote (work from home) and focuses on one area of my expertise that I want to work in for the remainder of my career. (I’m 55). I am taking a pay cut to do this, but I feel that it’s the right thing for my career and personal life. Any other opportunities in my field would come with killer commutes, and the other three areas of my industry in which I have expertise have proven stressful and anxiety provoking. So this is an intentional “scaling back” and pay cut to match. Working from home will allow me to address some health concerns, and be more available to my aging mother.

    The Head of the Group Practice (who does not work on this site) described the role as replacing someone who didn’t work out – they are still with the consultancy but moving to a different client site. He said there was a Site Director from the Consultancy who “Oversees all our employees at the site” (whether they are part of this Group Practice or not) and “There’s someone else there in the Group Practice” who I would meet during the interview process. Now I come to find out that the “someone else” is slated to be my boss – not the Site Director as I had assumed. During the interview process, the Now-Hiring Manager’s e-mail signature had a Manager title; the offer letter shows she is now a Director. (My role is a Manager role.)

    On the one hand: Should I care? I am still achieving my goals in getting a remote position that eliminates the parts of my job that cause the most stress. It should not matter to me that the person I’ll be reporting to has many fewer years work experience than I do. If you put my resume side by side with her Linkedin, my pertinent experience is about five years more than hers since she has not strayed from the work of this Group Practice and I have done related (but not the same) work. She’s been with the Consultancy for over a decade, so there’s that to consider as well.

    On the other hand: Warning! Warning! What else are they not telling me? Apart from the interview and testing process (they had me do some work samples) all of my communication has been with the Head of the Group Practice. Whenever I had a question for him, he would consult with the Site Director – not the Now-Hiring Manager. I don’t even know if Now-Hiring Manager knows what the other two agreed to with me! This also explains the delay in my offer. Two days ago I got a weird excuse that the client just wanted to check with his counterpart to make sure she was on board. But I had heard this the week before, so I was alarmed that this might have been an open question while I had a verbal offer and was negotiating the salary. Now I suspect that they were buying time so they could promote the Now-Hiring Manager to Director.

    It might help to add that my current job came with lots of surprises – things that were knowable and I should have been told and would have been deal-breakers for me. I started looking to leave within a few months. I realize this makes me hyper-vigilant about a bait and switch. This is less about the fact that I’ll be reporting to someone junior to me – I keep trying to remember that I should not care about that since my goals were to scale down, after all. Who knows? Maybe she’ll be better than the person I thought I’d be reporting to? My current boss is terrible manager, and also a petty score-keeping habitual liar. These are things I could not have known before I took this job – you almost never can. It’s a risk to report to Now-Hiring Manager now because it is always a risk to report to someone new.

    I think I need to reach out to the Head of the Group Practice and make sure that the Now-Hiring Manager is on board with all the stuff he talked to the Site Manager about. I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot with the person who will be my boss by telling any of them “Hey, I didn’t know I was going to be reporting to her” but is there some way I can ask if there’s anything else they’ve neglected to tell me? No one ever said “You’ll report to Site Director and Other Person will be your peer”, but it was strongly implied. How big a deal is this really?

    1. JokeyJules*

      How is it indicating that you will be reporting to them?
      At my company we will hire new remote project managers and sort of buddy them up with a “Mentor” who is another project manager to show them the ropes and be there to answer questions. They work more closely at the beginning and then it tapers off. However, the “Mentor” is in no way a manager of the new employee. Could it be something like that?
      Regardless, to ease your concerns, I’d pick up the phone and talk to the site manager and/or hiring manager to iron out these details just to be sure.

      Good luck!

      1. Triplestep*

        It indicates on the offer letter that I will be reporting to her, and states her name and title. I don’t think it is similar to the mentor situation you described.

        Thanks, yes I think I will reach out to the guy I’ve been talking to. The problem is the question I really want to ask is “what else haven’t you told me!”

    2. WellRed*

      “This is less about the fact that I’ll be reporting to someone junior to me”

      Are you sure about that? For one, if you are reporting to her, I don’t see why you consider her junior, unless its an age thing. As to the rest of it, companies make changes. They aren’t required to stay static while deciding to hire. Before you formally accept the offer, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask how these changes impact you and make sure you are on the same page with everything they promised you.

        1. Triplestep*

          I’m not alarmed by that really; I am alarmed by the fact that I was never told, and I’m pretty sure my offer was delayed until they could promote the Now-Hiring manager, all while telling me a diffrent story. I am totally gun-shy because of all the things I was not told until I started my current job.

          1. Nacho Fridays*

            There are going to be a lot of things they have left out, its the nature of being new and I’m sure you left things out about you. There are most likely a lot of things going on since they are replacing someone who didn’t work out, your going to be the new guy the person above you has proven themselves and could have very well been picking up the slack since the last guy left and let them know they didn’t want to train someone else to be their peer and due to the work they have done they got promoted. They didn’t tell you because its not really important, you don’t work there yet you haven’t even signed. It’s honestly a good thing if that happened in that time frame it shows that if you do your job well you will be rewarded. Its all part of starting a new job, I don’t see a red flag these things happen all the time especially at consulting firms things move fast there. The issues you have are with your old job and the hang up with her being younger, if you can’t let it go let the job go.

          2. NW Mossy*

            At the risk of coming off blunt here, I’m not sure why you’re alarmed by this. It’s pretty much how it works in most situations when you’ve got a manager role and a direct report role open in the same unit.

            The most likely reason they didn’t tell you about the manager situation is that they were waiting until it was finalized by an accepted offer. It would be exceptionally odd for them to communicate internal decision-making to a candidate for a non-managerial role – it’s their business, and never impacts you at all unless you too accept an offer there. As an external candidate, you can’t reasonably expect to hear “Well, we’re interviewing Jane and Fergus to manage this position, but Fergus steals pens and microwaves fish, so we’re going to offer Jane but her salary requirements are high and I don’t know if we’ll get budget for it and it’s going to leave a big hole in Jane’s current role so we have to figure out a backfill and….”

            Also, when two positions like this are open, it’s completely normal to fill the manager position first because it’s higher priority to the business. It also gives the incoming manager a chance to debrief with those who did the interviewing and confirm they’re in alignment with offering to that candidate.

            Bottom line: this is all internal workings and it’s totally appropriate for the company to keep it confidential until it was final. Frankly, it would be a much bigger red flag if they had brought you into this as an interviewee.

            1. Triplestep*

              Thanks, but I think you misread my OP (which is understandable – it was long with a lot of people described, but not by name.) There were not two open roles.

              1. TechWorker*

                I mean… I think the point is there might have been, even if the manager role was only advertised internally.

      2. Triplestep*

        I guess I used the word “junior” because I have 15 more years in the work force than she does. My resume shows five more years in the field in which we’ll be working, and my Linkedin shows five more than that. But you’re right, she’ll be be senior to me when I start reporting to her. And I intentionally have wanted to scale back, so this is totally reasonable and is truly not my main concern. I think I would have been much less concerned about the age/experience gap if I had known going in that she’d be my manager – my current and last few manager have all been younger than I. That tends to happen to individual contributors after the age of 50!

        Yes, companies make changes all the time, and they might even make them while hiring, but why not TELL me? Given what I’ve been through with my current job (all kinds of things I was not told about until I had started) it makes me really nervous.

        Thanks, I do think I am going to call just to make sure everything the two others had discussed has been transmitted to my Now-Hiring Manager, and that she’s on board. I am hoping to find a way to do this that does not make me seem like I am not OK with the change in reporting – honestly, I have no way to know who would be best for me to report to in this scenario. My current boss – who seemed totally reasonable (cool, even!) during the interview process is certainly proof of that!

      3. Bend & Snap*

        I think a surprise manager is a big deal. I don’t think it’s a big deal that she has less overall experience than you do.

        I declined an offer once because they changed hiring managers in the middle–I had the chance to talk to the new one and she sounded like a freaking nightmare. No regrets.

        If you’re concerned about reporting to her, you can request to speak to her…you should have some info on the person who will be managing you before you accept.

        1. Triplestep*

          Thanks – I actually declined an offer because the person who would have managed me had far less experience than I AND it was clear that she lacked confidence and the higher ups were holding her hand/developing her. While it’s great that they were giving her an opportunity, I did want to be part of that scenario!

          My Now-Hiring Manager was part of the interview process, so she’s not a complete unknown which is good. And truth be told, she asked good questions and seemed to have a communication style I could work with.

    3. SoJo*

      I’m not in your field at all, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I think you can address this calmly and without seeming accusatory or defensive. I sense a lot of stress in your letter here, so you definitely want to cool off before you contact them. Can you get in touch with the person who’s been your point person so far, and use a neutral script like “it looks like you guys have had a change in reporting structure since we talked about it, can you walk me through the new set up and how that will work?“ I don’t think it makes you look paranoid to notice that there’s been a change, but I think you want to ask them about it from a place of curiosity and not suspicion. Like you say, there’s a chance that this person will be a great boss, very possibly better than the person you thought you’d be reporting to.

      As a person who has achieved seniority in my field, and often winds up working for clients who are younger and less experienced, I sympathize with feeling disoriented by sorting out your place in this hierarchy, but I think there’s a better than even chance that once you start working with this person you will be perfectly satisfied with the set up. (It might even help that you’re not in person, so it’s all about the work, and less about anybody’s appearance or personal style.)

      1. Triplestep*

        Very astute comment (my anxiety has really kicked in here, and I do know it! Can you see why I am actively looking for a less stressful job?) I like your script and suggestion and will probably use it. I had decided to start with the guy who had been the point person so far.

        “Disoriented” is a great way to describe the feeling – it’s really nothing against the Now-Hiring Manager, especially given that I wanted to scale back! I think wanting to scale back and actually being faced with the very real possibility (which turns out to be scary) are two different things. Yes, I am hoping that being remote will strip off a lot of the appearance and personal style issues that have dogged me now and then in the past. (Another reason I was looking for a remote role.) I have also thought about the fact that this could turn out to be just fine – even better than reporting to the person I thought I would be originally. I have no way of knowing from where I sit. It’s just a change, on top of a change that I actually signed up for.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      It’s common in consulting firms to have one person who is leading client engagements and has a project team reporting to them, and for another person to be the actual line of sight permanent manager for the employee.

      That said, it should have been spelled out to you at some point in the process. I would get clarity on the situation now, so that there aren’t any surprises when you actually join the company, particularly if you’ve never met the actual hiring manager.

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks, I have never worked for a consulting firm so I was hoping to hear something like this – that this is not as uncommon as it would be as an FTE. And thanks for the gut check that it should have been spelled out – I will feel less defensive asking about it now!

    5. Mazzy*

      I think it would be good to accept the job. You’re not being lied to or having information kept from you, they’re telling you this up front!

      More importantly, you have bigger fish to fry than whether you report to someone less experienced and younger – which at this point will be the majority of your potential bosses. You don’t want a hellish commute. You want to focus on this type of work. You can work from home which will help with your health issues. Yes, there is a pay cut, but that sometimes happens especially after your salary peaks. It’s not always doom and gloom. Personally I’d accept a job up to ten thousand less than I make if it was a good job – it doesn’t seem to make much of a difference especially at the high tax bracket. Yes you’ll have to teach the manager a thing or two, but that is a smaller issue than what you’d be avoiding by taking the job. Also, there is a lot to talk about a coming recession, so as a general rule, I’d nab a good job offer up instead of waiting for a perfect job. Every day I’m seeing layoffs in the paper, already…..

      1. Triplestep*

        I agree with everything you said here! Except that they really did keep info from me and/or lie by omission. Even that seems a bit strong – allow me to think one thing when another thing was true? I don’t think I would be seeing this the same way had I not been surprised by certain aspects of my current job that were knowable and shareable before I took the offer.

        1. Library Land*

          It seems to me that your fixated on them lying to you and therefore this means danger Will Robinson. I don’t see it that way, they waited on the offer to make sure that your paperwork was right, that your supervisor was all figured out. That makes a lot of sense. People here are saying that makes sense, and you yourself say it makes sense, but you just can’t get over that they lied to you. I think that if you don’t get over this your going to start your new job by making a mountain out of a mole hill.

          Consider this: What would you think if they gave you an incomplete offer, or gave you an updated offer two days later, or didn’t tell you until your first day? I’m betting you’d be just as upset. Or if you were being promoted and would soon have a new hire, would you be happy if your company first called to new hire to make sure they blessed your promotion – even though they hadn’t even started?

          1. Triplestep*

            Heh, I had typed “Danger Will Robinson” where you now see “Danger! Danger!” but I was afraid the reference would not be understood!

            Yes, you are right – I need to get over this, and I am glad I posted this because the responses are helping. As is often pointed out here, a bad workplace can leave a person with a skewed sense of things. Having had information withheld about my current role until I was onboard (not to mention having a boss who at best exaggerates and at worst lies outright) has made me overly cautious and reading too much into things.

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It sounds like your new manager was promoted (given that her signature used to say “manager” and now in the hiring documents she is listed as “director”).

      So while she may have less experience than you (although that doesn’t seem exactly true; it sounds like her experience is very direct and yours is more related?), she is higher in the organization’s hierarchy.

    7. Blue*

      I think it’s reasonable to have a conversation with your prospective boss-to-be about their expectations for the role and how they operate as a manager before you agree to sign on. As part of that conversation, you can ask any questions you still have about office culture and goals, and I think that can include asking whether her promotion was part of a larger set of changes they have in the works.

      I accepted a new job a few months back, and I asked my prospective supervisor a number of questions before I committed. (Like you, I was a bit nervous about the unknown!) I approached it as, “Can I ask you some questions about the office and your style as a manager? I want to be sure I have a really clear picture of the office and what I’d be a part of so I can be confident this will be a good fit for us both.” It helped that the job they were hiring me for requires you to be very thorough and thoughtful, so asking lots of questions and wanting the full picture before diving in fit what they were looking for in a candidate!

      1. Typewritergirl*

        But then, you can accept a job only to find your manager leaves, so you’re never guaranteed to have this info.

        1. Triplestep*

          Or they can stay, but you can find that you totally misjudged them.

          While interviewing for my current job, I asked my would-be peers about the culture, and they really painted quite the rosy picture. Since then, one of them was laid off, and the other has changed his tune. In his defense, he had only been there a few months himself at the time. (And he has been a great ally – I am really going to miss him!)

      2. Triplestep*

        I know you are right, but the situatoin with my current boss makes me realize that even getting asnwers to these questions does not guarangee anything.

        My current boss is actually very skilled in the nuts and bolts of our field; I was looking forward to learning a lot from her (and yes, she is younger than I am.) But she is a terrible manager, and has personal qualities that provoke my anxiety. She exaggerates, boasts, lies, antagonizes, holds grudges, drops names, one-ups people. I did not see these things in our conversations before I took the job, and I could not have discerned any of these things from a conversation like the one you describe. And honestly, I need to remind myself that this is true not only of my Now-Hiring Manager, but the person I thought I was going to report to. There’s just no way to know a lot of this stuff ahead of time, and that’s part of the risk of taking a new job.

    8. ChachkisGalore*

      Did you meet your Now-Hiring Manager during the interview process and if so, did you feel like you got to spend a decent amount of time speaking with them? Any new manager is a risk (like you said) and of course it can be really difficult to suss out true red flags in management style from interviews alone… However! I would NEVER take a job without meeting the person who is going to be my direct manager. It sounds like you did, so that might be enough (on both sides), but if you did not meet them at all – that I would consider a huge red flag.

      It does sound like you met them, though, at some point within the interview process. Personally I’d be a bit uneasy if I did not have the opportunity to interview with my direct manager (while knowing they would be my direct manager) – just because I’d have somewhat different questions for my direct manager vs a peer vs someone sr, but not my direct manager. I’d also want to know how involved the Now-Hiring Manager was in the hiring process (of course you probably should not ask this outright). Did the Head of Practice/Site Manager choose you on their own and then promote Now-Hiring Manager or was the Now-Hiring Manager as involved as a hiring manager truly should be. One time I had bait-and-switch management situation – I was told I’d be reporting to one person, then a month or so in it was switched to someone else. Someone that if I had known they would be my manager I would not have accepted the role (it was a promotion so I knew the person) and found out later that she thought I was a terrible fit for the role from the start, so if she were involved in the interviewing/hiring I highly doubt that I would have been offered the role. It put both of us in a very frustrating position.

      Would you feel comfortable asking for the opportunity to speak a bit further with the Now-Hiring Manager? I wouldn’t explicitly say it was because you had no idea they’d be your manager, but maybe just that you had a few followup questions for Now-Hiring Manager. It may give you the chance to confirm (as much as one can) that the Now-Hiring Manager is actually on board with the stuff you spoke to the Site Manager about. I think, for me, it would help allay some concerns about whether this was a one-off/lots of moving pieces situation vs representative of a non-transparent/bait-and-switchy type of place.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, I did get to meet her – she was a major part of my interview process, although her name did not come up when any answers about the job expectations were posed to the practice manager. That’s one of the reasons I was so surprised to see her name on the offer letter. And what I know of her so far is all good – funny, although I feel I should have been told about this, I do not hold any of that against her. There are two higher-up people who could have/should have told me.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Hm. I don’t know if I’d say huge red flag, but I think you do have some things you need to clarify with them before you sign the agreement and that is perfectly reasonable. It is normal to ask about the reporting structure.

      It’s possible that person was just recently promoted and it wasn’t so when you interviewed and that’s why they didn’t tell you.
      I don’t know about this field, but also could it be possible the Now-Hiring Manager is named as your manager because they’re onsite, but you’ll still really be working with/reporting to the Head of Group Practice? I mean, is that just a formality because it has to be listed as someone on site?

      I mean, I think you could ask for another meeting with both (if you didn’t meet with Now-Hiring Manager previously) to clarify some final points and details, but I wouldn’t automatically assume there is anything nefarious here.

    10. Marthooh*

      It’s possible that you weren’t told about the Now-Hiring Manager’s promotion because they were all still negotiating. When you think of it that way, they were right to keep the information confidential until it was all worked out. If so, that’s a good sign!

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, I figured that was part of my delay – but then why not tell me? Why let me just open an electronic offer letter and figure it out? They have no idea how mistrusting I am due to my current situation, so I guess it seemed like no big deal on their part; they’d have no idea my first reaction would be “what else are they not telling me, gah!”

    11. Not So NewReader*

      What I see here is your level of alarm. Sometimes we pick up on things that we can’t articulate. So our brains latch on to Other Issue and beat a dead horse talking about Other Issue.

      What I don’t like about this whole thing here is that you have not met your boss. She has no say in whether you get hired or not. This is a bad set-up.

      I was promoted by my big boss. I was to work for a woman named “Jane”. I did not speak with Jane until after all was said and done. Jane had many problems and one particular problem meant she could only work half-days. She did not train me. She had my subordinates train me. And she delighted in that too much. Things got worse as Jane said stuff such as she did not like having female direct reports (implying me). It turned out that Jane was a screamer. Jane belittled people. It did not take long for me to get in her line of fire. Finally she set me up with a stream of lies. I decided not to fight the lies (for reasons) and I quit. (If you fight to keep your latrine, when you win all you get is a latrine.)

      My advice ask to meet your direct boss. Ask if she is on board with hiring you. Ask the higher ups AND ask HER.
      It’s not good when people hire FOR other people. People get foisted on each other and resentment can bubble up. After what I went through with that job I mentioned here I will never again take a job where the direct manager is not looped in to the hiring decision.

      1. Triplestep*

        I actually did get to meet Now-Hiring Manager during the interview process. I got to know her about as well as I got to know the person I thought I’d be reporting to, and learned about as much as you would expect about her, which is to say not very much.

        “Jane” sounds a lot like my current boss, including the stream of lies. I had no interest in fighting to keep my latrine, but I did change my MO to start treating her like she walked on water just to make my life at work bearable until I could quit. I am hoping I get to do that next week before having to sit through my evaluation, ugh!

        I hope you landed somewhere better.

    12. CM*

      I understand why you’re spooked, but I think this is probably not a conspiracy. It’s possible that, while they were interviewing you for the Manager position they had not decided whether to promote your colleague to the Director position and didn’t want to invade her privacy by telling you that she was currently interviewing for that role — so she was “someone else.” (Imagine if she was passed over for that promotion and you had been told she was interviewing for it; she might be embarrassed or it might be an awkward way to start off).

      I think the most important point is what you thought of her when you met her, and whether you feel like she’ll be a good person to work with?

      If the people you’ve been negotiating with have made you soft promises about things, I think it would be reasonable to say that you’ve only just realized the hiring manager wasn’t involved in the negotiation and you’d like what you’ve been promised to be written down, just so there are no misunderstandings.

      1. Triplestep*

        Heh, my OP does come across like I think this is a conspiracy, doesn’t it? I feel a lot less anxious now than I did this morning – reading the responses here has helped, and also remembering the way coming from a bad situation can impact your trust of a new situation.

        Yes, I tried to touch base with the Head of the practice group today (he reached out to me, actually) but we were both too busy so it will have to wait until Monday morning. Your last paragraph is exactly as I intend to approach it, though – not “what the hell?” but is my Now-Hiring Manager aware/on board with the things we discussed.

  15. Jennifleurs*

    Just heard the boss’ daughter (late 30s at least) be so rude to the IT guy that I was taken aback. It was along the lines of “Yes, but I don’t care,” which now that I write it down doesn’t -look- that bad, but … ugh. This’ll be fun,

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sounds like a context and tone thing, snapping “I don’t care” at someone is rude AF.

  16. Cluster B*

    Does anyone else struggle with a serious mental illness while working full time? What are your best strategies for dealing with mood swings? I’m normally fine but my job has been so stressful lately that I’ve been experiencing suicidal thoughts and bursts of violent anger and it’s been hard to focus. I’m an admin who also provides technical support if that gives any context.

    1. Chereche*

      Now, I have not been diagnosed with any specific mental illness (working towards eventually seeking help) but I’ve been there. What I’ve found that helps me the most so far is exercising on a schedule and pushing myself hard while working out. It gives a good outlet for some of the anger, and the endorphin high afterwards relaxes me continuously and it makes unwinding at the end of the day a lot easier.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Do you have a therapist and/or a psychiatrist? My husband is a mental health professional who deals with managing his own anxiety and depression, and having a therapist to talk strategy with and a psych (in his case, NP) to talk meds management with has been hugely helpful in making his worklife more manageable. You need a Team You to help manage those things, and if you have them, check in with them asap to help work on this.

      If you don’t have those, I strongly suggest getting both (work EAP may be helpful), and using PTO/sick days for the days you just can’t manage.

    3. delphine from Belgium*

      Please seek professional help, talk to a doctor.

      Also, try to maintain a good sleep schedule. Lack of sleep exacerbates difficulties.

      Focus on what you can do, let what is not your responsability swing by.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Lack of sleep. Oh my YES. I had some health issues brought on pretty much by my father being sick and then passing. I was doing 20-22 hour days. I couldn’t think straight. And after a bit I could not get out of bed because of issues. For me, my main problem was Major Grief but it exasperated other smaller problems and those problems got out of hand also.

        I got into a lot of alternative stuff. One thing my practitioner went to great lengths to be specific about was for me to take control of my schedule. Go to bed at the same time, get up at the same time. Eat meals within the same window of time every day. I was yo-yoing emotionally –happy, crying, mad, sleepy. I did not like me much. He talked about that yo-yoing and among many other things he said, to be consistent with my routines.
        First hand, I can promise you this will help. No magic wand here and I am not a doc and all those disclaimers. However, I do know first hand that controlling your schedule will help.

    4. Doug Judy*

      Take care of yourself. Talk to your therapist/psychiatrist ASAP. My brother has a significant mental illness and it’s a hell he in no way caused or deserved, and you didn’t do anything to cause this either. You have a medical condition that needs urgent attention.

    5. deesse877*

      It sounds like your job role involves a lot of supporting other people–and hence, less of a sense of control yourself. Is that accurate? If so, it sounds hard.

      The main thing, I think, is to not “catastrophize.” That is, try to push away thoughts like “I AM GONNA EXPLODE ANY SECOND!!!” Even if it feels that way, which it probably does, then you just have the fear of a self-made disaster on top of everything else. Instead, try to think things like “well this sucks right now, but later today I will [eat thing I like] and relax with [TV, book, video game, whatever takes you out of the moment].”

      This strategy is not easy to learn, but the good thing about it is that it’s incremental: you tell yourself something like this several times a day, and even though it doesn’t work sometimes, other times it does. Over time, you will get more successes and become less afraid of your own moods. The moods may or may not improve in themselves, but they rule you less.

      To give you a timescale: I had a specific job task that often sent me into a panic/rage spiral, and it took about three years for me to stop feeling that way about it almost completely, BUT once I figured out the “this sucks right now, but later…” trick, I cut out 40-50% almost immediately. And when a person is trying to survive, 40% less bad feeling is significant.

      Good luck.

      1. Miss Wels*

        Yes, I spend all day helping others and receive little thanks or credit in return. I’m definitely underpaid. And we have two vacancies that would normally be sharing my workload if they were filled (both have been vacant for months), and the other support position that is “filled” is filled by someone who only works part time to begin with and is constantly sick on the days they are supposed to be here.

          1. anonymoushiker*

            You can email Alison to ask her to change it, I’ve definitely done that in a panic before!

    6. Maggie May*

      the (american) national suicide prevention hotline is 1-800-273-8255 if you need immediate help.

      if you are in america your employer likely has an EAP in place. this generally grants you 6 free “clinic” visits for mental health. my insurance offers X amount (don’t know off the top of my head – I think it’s enough for one visit a week + some extra) of counselling visits per year as well.

      you may also consider going to your primary care physician. I have depression and anxiety, but it turns out it was thyroid related so when I’m being treated adequately I feel fine. You are also describing the more severe symptoms of ADHD, so it would be helpful to talk through your symptoms with a professional.

      however, based on your user name, I expect you are already diagnosed. in these cases I think it’s best to talk to someone outside of your brain, since they can offer outside perspective. it can be hard to see the forest for the trees when it’s your own brain, so perhaps it is one aspect of your job or one person who is exacerbating your illness. if that is too much or too overwhelming, try to journal what is happening during the day and then go back through periodically to try and find patterns yourself.

      1. Miss Wels*

        Yes, I have Borderline Personality Disorder and Major Depressive Disorder mainly triggered by childhood trauma. I have some symptoms that people associate with ADHD but I do have the condition as a whole. I also have thyroid issues but getting help for it has been challenging because my labs are so inconsistent. I do know I need professional treatment but just getting an appointment is such a bureaucratic nightmare when I already have executive functioning issues that I’ve been unsuccessful, and many times when I do get an appointment, the professional is unsympathetic to BPD because it carries such a stigma.

        1. Maggie May*

          I suggest finding a good endo if you can. mine pretty much lets me do my own dosage and labs, I just have to request them. since mine is autoimmune in nature I have to take care of that too, but my QOL improves immensely when I’m doing well. I’m also “allergic” to soy in that it affects my thyroid, so I would also suggest maybe trying to see if cutting out common thyroid things like soy, gluten, or dairy.

          my husband has adhd and also has had trouble finding sympathetic help. it’s taken him years to find someone that believes adults can have it, and to find someone competent. his current person (not sure title) has suggested he journals whenever he’s lost control of his emotions and every night so that he can go through and try and find triggers or common denominators. with this he was able to figure out some of his anger was really embarrassment from his symptoms, for example.

          it might also be useful to go to a PCP to have them route you to someone directly instead of having to look yourself.

        2. Dr. Anonymous*

          I feel for you. Does your primary care doc work in a large group? Sometimes the large groups or some insurance companies offer a case manager (social worker or nurse) to help you make sure you get your appointments scheduled and keep in touch with your team. Can you ask? I think having consistent care would help you a lot.

    7. Utoh!*

      Can you take breaks when you are feeling overwhelmed, or take some time off to decompress and get some perspective on the situation? It’s hard to deal with anything when you are right in the middle of it. As another poster said, if your thoughts and feelings are getting to the breaking point, please reach out to a professional asap. No job is worth feeling stressed to the point of hurting yourself or others. You have to take care of yourself first.

    8. Anonymeece*

      I’m not sure what type of admin you are, or if this is feasible, but when I’m finding myself going through mood swings, I try to isolate myself if I can. Not for long, but I don’t take social lunches with other colleagues when I’m feeling like that, I’ll try to schedule some quiet time, etc. It gives me a chance to regroup without the constant pressure of being “on” and controlling it, I guess? I take some time to try to meditate or even just breathe for a bit without anyone looking at me.

      Get out of the office if you can. If you normally eat lunch at your desk, start driving somewhere, or just eat in the parking lot if you need to save gas. Going to a park is better, because nature really helps me, but YMMV. Sometimes that hour is what I need to make through the next four around people.

      Find something after work that helps you. I worked with my partner and said I needed one hour after I got home to unwind, with him not around. Going straight from work people to home people wasn’t giving me any chance to regulate my emotions.

      I’m normally very social and greet everyone and make small talk, but I withdraw when I get like this. It’s not necessarily great, but limit conversation to what you can handle without being rude – instead of asking about someone’s weekend when they say good morning, just say “Good morning” back, smile, and keep walking, or whatever. I know people usually say, “Oh, but you shouldn’t withdraw socially!” but personally I find it exhausting when I feel like I’m about to scream.

      Finally, co-signing the importance of a doctor, therapist, hotlines… whatever is in your ability to take care of your health. Be kind to yourself. Take mental health days when you need them. And if all else fails, talk to your HR department and see about accommodations. Disclosing is an absolutely personal choice, so if that’s not feasible, I completely understand, but it may be worth considering if you’re feeling like this.

    9. Working Fed*

      If you’re having a really rough day at work, text 741-741 (Crisis Text Line). I’m a volunteer Crisis Counselor and a lot of people text in during the work day because it’s easier than trying to step out of the office and call a phone number.

      Additionally, I have anxiety and depression, both of which often manifest in bursts of anger that seem to come out of nowhere. For me, mindfulness and meditation have been a lifesaver. There are apps, Calm or Headspace, for example, that offer quick 10-minute practices that are easy to use on a quick work break. Journaling also helps. If I need to release some emotion at work, I will sometimes email myself (on my personal email) to get the feelings out on “paper.” This can be really helpful if you can’t focus.

      Finally, please remember that you matter and you’re meant to be here. Your gray matter can try to convince you that you don’t, but it’s true.

    10. Youth*

      Get in on time and leave on time. If you can flex, then get in early and leave early. Pack nice lunches that you can look forward to. (That always cheers me up/helps me regulate my emotions on a stressful day.) Exercise regularly either before or after work. (Ditto.) In your non-work life, look into counseling or medication, and find ways to unwind when you get home and on the weekends. Try to compartmentalize if you can!

      Source: Been there, done that. Well, doing it, to be exact. But things are getting better for me emotionally even though my life circumstances haven’t yet changed! You, too, can get through this.

    11. OH GOD BEES*

      Meeeeeeee. I’ll share some of the things that have worked for me, in case any of it is helpful.

      1) Have a “work self-care” plan. Depending on your work environment, this might need to be fairly subtle stuff. For example, at one workplace, I made a habit of getting up and making a cup of really delicious-smelling herbal tea. It tasted disgusting, and I never actually drank it, but it gave me an opportunity to get up, have a quiet moment to myself while I waited for the tea to boil, and smell something nice while I held something warm for a bit. Box-breathing is also great for managing anxiety or other strong emotions (breathe in for 4s, hold for 4s, out for 4-8s and repeat a couple times. If you can use headphones, guided meditations or even a favourite calming song can be helpful to take a moment. Go for a walk, if you can, or find a quiet space to sit and reflect. Phone apps can also be great, including games to distract you for a moment, mood tracking apps like Daylio or guided meditation apps like Calm, Headspace, Insight Timer (last is free).

      2) Scripts are good. Especially, make and practice polite “I need a moment” scripts. Make them habit, so that when you feel a strong emotion coming on, you can buy yourself time to think and reflect without passing up the opportunity to address an issue. e.g. “That’s interesting, let me think on that and get back to you.”, “I have some thoughts about that, but I need to address x problem/talk with x person/think through it a bit more. Is it alright if I circle back?”. Scripts for addressing but deflecting overemotional moments are good too. e.g. “Sorry, I’m feeling a bit under the weather, and things are a bit tough to process right now. I’m okay, I just need a minute to collect my thoughts.”, and other scripts Alison has suggested about “crying at work” (even if it’s another surprise emotional response!)

      3) The long-term, messy work. I find this stuff really hard, especially when it comes to actually scheduling appointments, meeting new doctors, going to appointments, etc. YMMV, but oddly, it helps me to sometimes catastrophize what it’s like if I *don’t* do this – yeah, sure, I might not have to have an awkward convo with my boss about needing time off for appointments, but instead I might deteriorate until I’m fired/laid off, all my bills won’t be paid, and my dog will be sad and hungry. I know this stuff takes a lot of emotional labour and resilience, so I reward myself for things like booking appointments, etc. and I also don’t let myself off the hook if I don’t have an appointment yet… there are a lot of self-help books and things that might not be a substitute for a regular, dedicated therapy appointment, but can still teach some skills and help in the short term. I work through Mind Over Mood (CBT self-help workbook) periodically. For BPD, you might find DBT self-help books helpful, and I believe there are even some phone apps along these lines. (I have friends who have that diagnosis, and I’m happy to ask them for specific suggestions, if you’re interested.) EAPs are good resources, but also look into peer support resources in your community. Peer support was absolutely life-changing for me, and it’s great to meet people who can empathize without condescending, and who can be supportive without being close or complicated.

      4) Be kind to yourself, and make time for yourself. You are doing a hard thing. It might not feel like you are succeeding sometimes, but working when you feel this badly is not something that everyone can do. Just because you are hurting and struggling does not mean that you are not also strong. It’s just really, really hard sometimes. So is asking for help and support, and you’re doing that too! Reward yourself for the small things, even if it’s just surviving a week. Try to find time for healthy habits or hobbies, if you have the energy. (If you don’t, that’s okay – you know yourself and your limits. That self-knowledge is important, and it’s okay to draw and keep boundaries.)

    12. CubeKitteh*

      Schizoaffective bipolar here. I have been in that place more times than I want to admit. For in the moment, if you can step away for a moment, just to breathe, it can help. I also tend to switch tasks if I can identify the trigger. I also have scheduled exercise times to help relieve some of the stress. I also have small things in the vicinity of my desk that will lift my mood, including a small list of songs on my phone that I will listen to to calm me down.

      For long term, there are some great suggestions here that I would only be repeating. It is a battle and not always the easiest, but you can do it! Good luck!

    13. Anon Bipolar I*

      My advise after 24 years of wrestling with Bipolar I

      Guard your sleep schedule like you’d guard a pot of gold. The fast way I derail into a mania is one week with minimal sleep and different bedtimes. Took me and my psychiatrist 5 years to figure this out.

      When I feel really feel stressed this is my go to plan…

      1. Non negotiable sleep times. Mine is 11 pm to 5 am.

      2. No caffeine after 12 pm. Any later is gasoline on a bonfire. I LOVE COFFEE. If I need a pick me up, it’s 16 oz of water, and 5 minutes on my mediation app. (I rarely drink much coffee, usually it’s only 6 oz in the morning)

      3. Look up sleep hygiene from a decent site. I do the whole “prepare for bed stuff”. No tech before bed. This is hard for me. I even read paper books instead of the Kindle during this time.

      All of this sucks. I resent doing all of it. I’d rather be up at 3 am when I’m wound up.

      For me anxiety is a huge mania trigger. I do everything in my power to tamp that down. I meditate ALOT. I’m about as Zen as a explosion, so I really have to work at it. My meditations are maybe 5 minutes long during the day, if I do them. This is coming from someone who punched a inpatient psychiatric social worker in the face. He kept pestering me to go to the mindfulness class, and I didn’t want his advice. (oh yeah, good times)

      Also find a decent therapist like the others suggested. I wrote the above because it’s free, and you could try it now. Cognitive Behavioral therapy help alot with handling anxiety.

      14 years with no hospitalizations and minimal meds since I started the above.

      HTH

  17. TheWonderGinger*

    What are peoples general feelings about applying a lip balm (unscented & clear like Chapstick) while in a customer service position?

    I find myself absentmindedly applying while I wait for someone to sign a form or if they are chit chatting. Is this a major faux paus I need to start keeping better tabs on? I live in a very cold, dry climate so I apply often and liberally, especially because I am talking to patients all day and it hurts when they dry out.

    1. DivineMissL*

      If I were your customer and you did it in front of me, I wouldn’t think too much about it. Applying lipstick or brushing your hair would be objectionable as it smacks of personal grooming; lip balm or hand cream leans more towards first aid/medical need. That being said, I’d suggest doing it between customers instead of in front of them, as it makes it look like you are bored/not paying attention to the patient.

    2. AnonEMoose*

      As long as you’re just applying the tube to your lips and not using your fingers to apply it, I don’t think this would register on my radar (also in a cold, dry climate). That can be really hard on the lips in particular, and I’d rather see someone applying lip balm than be wincing in sympathy because someone’s lips look so chapped and sore.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I might not apply it while I was directly dealing with a customer, but in between I don’t think a quick swipe is any big deal at all. I also apply it continuously because in the winter my skin and lips just freak out.

      3. Marion Ravenwood*

        Fourthing this. I wouldn’t do it whilst dealing with customers, but discreetly in between tasks/people is fine. Same goes for applying lipstick or hand cream (though that’s more for when you’ve got a couple of minutes free rather than when you’ve got a queue building up, and in the hand cream context it can take a little while for it to sink in so I’m not necessarily sure I’d want to be handing customers pens etc right after applying).

    4. Lupin Lady*

      If I was a customer I’d be weird-ed out by this. Do you have moments where customers aren’t in front of you? Or if you’re waiting for something could you walk away and turn your back briefly? (For the record chapstick at work is fine, it’s just better to be subtle about things still considered ‘personal grooming’)

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Wouldn’t even notice, unless you were making a wierd production of it, either by trying to be extremely covert, or by…I don’t know, sniffing it or making lascivious “mmmmmm” noises or something.

      Just an ordinary matter of fact swipe probably wouldn’t even register.

    6. A person*

      It’s like clipping nails, wouldn’t do it. Might be better to find a different kind of lip balm that doesn’t need to be reapplied so often. Can’t find it now but I just saw an article about how some lip balms have ingredients that dry your lips out even worse and thats why they have to be reapplied so often.

      1. theguvnah*

        applying lip balm is nothing like clipping nails.

        People apply lipstick at the dinner table and it isn’t blinked at.

    9. Anon Anon Anon*

      If it looked like you were just medicating chapped lips, I wouldn’t think about it at all. If it was something like Cherry Sparkle Lip Balm, I wouldn’t judge you for it myself, but some people would.

    10. Parenthetically*

      Between patients, I think. But lip balm and hand cream = necessary, so I wouldn’t think of it as grooming.

    11. Plant_Mama*

      I have extremely dry lips, they will literally turn bright red if I do not use chapstick. I wouldn’t think anything of it and I’d be rather irritated to find out that other people were judging for it.

    12. Not Me*

      Most people probably wouldn’t even notice.

      Side note: I have very sensitive skin and contact allergies. I was using a fragrance free lip balm that I thought was on my “safe list” for years, applying it all the time because my lips seemed to chap easily. Until, my dermatologist reminded me I’m allergic to wax….which is in all chapstick type lip balms and lipstick. I switched to plain Vaseline (not the lip stuff, just regular Vaseline) and was AMAZED at the difference. Dry, chapped skin is a typical allergic response. Might not be what you’re dealing with, but thought I’d mention just in case, could solve your chapped lips and you won’t have to worry about applying in front of patients :)

  18. The Other Dawn*

    Any tips for finding and working with a recruiter?

    I’ve never worked with one before, and I have no idea where to start or even if I should. My job is ending here next month, and I’m not seeing a lot of positions that interest me, so I’m thinking maybe I should try a recruiter.

    1. HR in an Association/NonProfit*

      So, the thing about recruiters is that they don’t generally work with applicants, they work for companies, assuming you are in the US. Recruiters are hired by companies to fill a position and receive payment from the company, meaning their interest lies with the company not the candidates.

      Depending on your field, being super active on LinkedIn, constantly perusing Indeed and ZipRecruiter, and networking as much as possible are going to be your best bet for finding your next position.

      1. Natalie*

        I think you might be understanding the word recruiter very narrowly? Staffing firms definitely work with candidates directly. I’ve gotten all but my most recent professional job that way.

        1. HR in an Association/NonProfit*

          They do work directly with candidates, absolutely; however, as illustrated by irene adler below, their loyalty is to their client (the employer). You, as the candidate, are not their top priority and many will only interact with you if they currently have a position or have a position in the pipeline that makes sense for them to recommend you to the client.

          In some fields, you will do well finding positions by working with a staffing firm. In the vast majority, that is not the case.

          1. Natalie*

            Ah, your post read somewhat differently. I absolutely wouldn’t put all of my eggs in one recruiter’s basket, but there’s no reason to avoid working with one. It doesn’t prevent you from also job searching directly.

            1. HR in an Association/NonProfit*

              Agreed, there is nothing wrong with working with one (or more). For my current position, I actually didn’t use a recruiter to find the position. There was a recruiter who was a great resource for bouncing offers and opportunities off of. It was amazingly helpful and she probably saved me from jumping on an offer that would have ultimately made me miserable.

              My point is – generally speaking, recruiters don’t go out seeking a job for the candidate. If they have a job that the candidate fits it is kismet. The best bet for finding a job is through your own network and your own searching.

              1. Natalie*

                “generally speaking, recruiters don’t go out seeking a job for the candidate.”

                I’ve never come across anyone who thinks they do that. YMMV I guess.

                1. Mouse*

                  I thought this, before I read this site and entered the working world and learned what really happens. I think they’re sometimes reflected this way in TV/movies as a plot device, and you don’t know what you don’t know!

    2. irene adler*

      There’s good and bad with working with a recruiter.
      Good: they can polish your resume – no charge to you. They know their clients and can help with interview tips. They are good with supporting you during the interview/hiring process.
      They often field constructive feedback post-interview which can be communicated to you.

      Bad: they are working for the client, not you. Always. So if they don’t think you are a match, you will be ignored. They should be concerned with whether you are a good fit so that the client isn’t back to filling your position a short time later because you didn’t like the job. They don’t have all the jobs available; you still need to continue your job hunt. Might need to work with more than one- as some companies do exclusive business with one recruiter.
      A bad recruiter will change your resume to misrepresent you (embellishments such as inflated titles and accomplishments). Though rare, do watch for this.

      There are recruiters or temp agencies that specialize in certain industries. Try to find one of these. Ask others in your field for their suggestions on who these are. Ask at your local professional organization meeting.

    3. Ainomiaka*

      Honestly, the only experiences I have had with recruiters is them expecting me to drop everything to talk to them about jobs below what I was currently working. Sometimes when they found me off LinkedIn and could see that. So . . . unfortunately not a lot of good advice, other than don’t let them push you around.

      1. irene adler*

        This is an important concept for folks to understand. Good that you posted. Some recruiters are simply looking for a body to place. They don’t read the ‘fine print’ (like current title, experience, industry, etc.) regarding whom they are talking to. So they will waste your time trying to convince you to interview for something that does not fit you.

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      It never hurts to work with a recruiter, but remember a lot of them are terrible. There are definitely good ones out there, but a lot of recruiters are under a lot of pressure to place people in jobs and get a certain number of calls/responses/etc and aren’t necessarily (or able to be) invested in finding you a good job that you’ll be happy in, so keep that in mind.

      That being said, start by marking your linkedin profile as “open to new opportunities”. That alone will probably get a bunch of recruiters reaching out to you. Ignore people that reach out about opportunities that aren’t related to your experience, those are people reaching out to fill a quota and aren’t worth your time. I personally haven’t had a great experience working with recruiters who reach out to me via linkedin, but I know some people have, the quality may depend on your industry and experience level.

      Try and find a recruiter that works specifically in your industry/experience – that will always be better than someone who recruits across all fields. You should also look for a recruiter who works in your area, if possible, googling “[your field/experience] recruiters in [your city] should yield you some results.

      The higher positions you’re going for, the better recruiters you’ll work with. My fiance is senior level in his career and had an awesome recruiter find him who was very personal, honest, only sent him jobs that were good fits, etc. Whereas I’m mid-level and have mostly worked with recruiters who were pushy and sending me anything and everything that seemed like I might be able to make work. Again, this isn’t going to be true 100% of the time, but just something to keep in mind. Most recruiters are really trying to help themselves and earn a commission, so just remember that they don’t always have your best interest at heart. I’m sure a lot of them would prefer to give the personal attention that everyone deserves, but unless you are very high up in food chain, you aren’t going to work with a recruiter who is focused on finding you your dream job, you’re working with someone who has dozens (if not hundreds) of people on file and is just trying to fill positions coming their way.

      This might sound like I’m crapping all over recruiters, which I don’t want to do! I think it’s definitely worth it to work with recruiters and many of them are hard-working, wonderful people. Just some things to keep in mind when working with them. My final recommendations are to cast a wide net with recruiters and keep job hunting on your own.

      Good luck!

    5. Hallowflame*

      To find a recruiter: You can either google “recruiter [your industry]” or ask around in your network for references. I have done both, and was satisfied with both experiences. In both scenarios, you will be able to fill out an online application and submit a copy of your resume and cover letter, and you will be assigned to a recruiter who will contact you if they think they have any job matches for you.
      Working with a recruiter: Sometimes it’s great, sometimes it’s a waste of everyone’s time. It depends entirely on the recruiter you end up working with. One of the drawbacks of working with any recruiter, as many other commenters have noted, is that the employer is paying the recruiter’s commission, not you, so their chief motivation is putting a body in that job, not putting YOU in a job. However, their commission is based on the starting salary of whoever gets hired. If you get a job offer through that recruiter, they are willing and motivated to negotiate a higher starting salary for you.

    6. The Other Dawn*

      Thanks, everyone! I’ve heard a couple people in passing talk about how they’re working with a recruiter, so it sounded to me like you just go find one. I’ll have to see if I can contact these people and ask.

      I set my LinkedIn profile to show that I’m open to recruiters, but haven’t heard much yet.

      I had someone reach out to me when the sale of the bank was first announced since it was in the news and he recruits for a well-known bank around here. I told him it was way too early, and that I wanted to see what happened in terms of an offer from the acquiring bank. I then reached out again a few months ago to say I’m interested in talking, here’s my resume, and…crickets. He was contacting a lot of people here around the same time and everyone has said that he ghosted on them once they sent over their resume. At least I know I’m not the problem with that one!

      1. irene adler*

        Just know that you will experience a recruiter who contacts you because he is “hot to trot” over an opportunity, and then ghost you when you try to follow-up on it.
        Don’t take it personally. It isn’t you.

  19. dovidbawie*

    Just got my appointment for my unemployment process. I’m extremely nervous that I’ll have to go through this 2 hour meeting only to receive awful direction that could hurt me, like walking in to places to hand over my resume, when that’s just not done in my industry [graphic design/print production].

    Any advice/encouragement from others who’ve gone through the unemployment benefits program?

    1. BeanCat*

      Caveat that my experience is limited, but I actually found some of their courses I was required to take helpful. I was required to sit through a general introduction where they taught us how the process works, and then there was a calendar where we could choose other courses which were more specialized like salary negotiation. I think you had to do one a month?

      Best of luck – it’s a hard spot to be in. We’re all pulling for you here!

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      As a Department of Labor employee, I’d like to ensure you that not all of us are mean and most of us legitimately want you to succeed at your job search. Which means – if in your industry people don’t drop by potential employers, we probably won’t make you do that — because it would be counterproductive.

      Bring your resume and an open mind. You’ll hear stuff about the rules and regs about UI, but you’ll also get some ideas about how to approach job search, which you are welcome to take with a grain of salt, especially if you’ve got more productive strategies you’re planning to use. And take advantage of anything they offer at the office. Just do it all. It’s free and it might just work.

        1. IrishEm*

          Good stuff: My Annual Leave request got approved! Who’s Irish, has two thumbs and is going to Rome this summer? THIS GAL! :D
          And the trade union negotiated better wages and an increase in holiday day, 23 instead of the 21 i was on and €25K even instead of €24,400 I am such a happy camper.
          Bad stuff: Feeling a bit of January stress though because of a payroll snafu I don’t get paid for December’s work until the end of January and… It’s the 12th and I has no moneys. Oh, dear. Trying to not freak the whole way out but really would have appreciated getting paid the same time as everyone else in the company (my nine training companions are in the same boat, so I get commiserations from them, but I don’t think the company realised that I was unemployed before I interviewed and have no savings and have no money for, like, food and bills and stuff. And manager is on her hols so I don’t know who I can talk to about maybe getting some wages released early or anything :( Slightly worrying. Oh, well. I need to focus on the good stuff. Like the fact that I *will* get paid at the end of the month. I will.

      2. Jane*

        California is the only state I’m familiar with the process in, and it does not sound like that is where you are, however I once had a retail job right next door to the post office, and there were totally people dropping off deliberately terrible resumes on a regular basis, so that they could meet job application quotas that were totally insane for professional level jobs. Some one once applied for that office supply retail job with a full length, high quality post doc psychology cv. there are usually ways to hit the right buttons without damaging your professional reputation.

        1. Emma*

          When I was in need of a(nother) job back in 2017, I put myself in the hole instead of claiming JSA, specifically because I knew that JSA would require me to waste a bunch of time hitting quotas etc, and would try to get me to stop the part-time snd voluntary work I was doing that was useful for my professional development, in favour of focussing on getting any fulltime work ASAP, regardless of what it was.

          Without JSA, I was able to target jobs that I was a good candidate for, and put a full day into each application or interview prep; and I got a pretty good hit rate and positive feedback from interviewers as a result. I had £50 left in the bank when my nana’s legacy came through; and I started my great new job 4 months later.

          I was super lucky to be (kind of) in a financial position to tell the jobcentre to fuck off (which, coincidentally is a significant part of my current jobs). I do wonder how much of an impact these kind of terrible policies have on the ability of poor and working class people to get into professional fields, statistically speaking.

    3. Plain Jane*

      I agree, even though some of the info in the classes wasn’t helpful, there still was some info that helped. It was also nice to be around people who were in the same situation.

      One really unexpected benefit was finding out I could get access to help paying my new healthcare premiums, which was something I never considered.

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      My advice is to show up, make your peace with the fact that this is a required part of the process, and zone out for a few hours. I found the advice to be so generic and basic (“you should have a resume”, “did you know you can find jobs through the internet?”, etc) that I listened to the pieces I needed to know to fulfill my requirements, but let my mind drift otherwise.

      If you’re following this site you’re probably leagues ahead of the advice the centers are giving, so feel free to ignore their teachings and do your own thing.

      Oh but everyone I interacted with throughout the process was lovely and kind. Just make sure you do what they ask (bring in resumes, document your job hunting, etc) and you’ll be golden!

    6. Liane*

      I had to do that kind of class a year or so ago. I reverted to middle/high school, when I sometimes ended up in classes where most of the class was way behind me*. In those cases, I became an expert at doodling, fiction writing, reading everything but the assignment (which I’d read in the first 5 minutes) all while getting good grades and appearing to Pay Attention and Even Take Notes. So I did the same thing. Looked like I was taking all kinds of useful notes while I was doing prep for a roleplaying game or some such nonsense**. And it was even easier than for Teen Liane, because there weren’t any cool tablets/phones with note apps and everyone using them in the ’70s-’80s.

      *E.g., I was in my grade’s advanced or honors English/Language Arts at School A but moved and enrolled in School B which only had Grade X English/Language Arts, so all knowledge/skill levels in one class

    7. xarcady*

      Are you doing the general, one-size-fits- all program or were you specially selected for a program for a certain demographic, like workers older than 50?

      The general program is pretty basic, but might have some useful information. And they will probably go over what you need to do to keep getting the UI benefit–how many jobs you have to apply to each week, how to report that information, that sort of thing. In my state, we get to watch a little video about UI fraud and what the penalties are.

      They go over things like you don’t have to take a job that won’t pay enough to support you, or that is wildly out of your field–although the tolerance for that decreases the longer you are unemployed. In many states, you can temp or take a part-time job while on UI and they will explain how that affects your benefits.

      Several years ago, I was put in a special program for unemployed people over 50. I had to go the regular program as well, which is one session a month. The special program involved meeting with a counselor every other week for half an hour. While the counselor might have helped other people, she was useless for me. The only advice she gave, after I asked her, was to take all dates off my resume.

      Basically, I would sit there for 30 minutes while she scrolled through the state’s database of available jobs, the same database I was required to log in to twice a month, and look for jobs for me. Jobs that I had usually already applied to. I chalked it up as the cost of getting that weekly UI check, and after the first two meetings, realized that I was not going to get an actual benefit from going to those sessions.

      You might get advice to go pounding the pavement and knocking on doors, but from my experience, no one will follow up to see if you do that.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just because they give bad advice doesn’t mean you need to take it! They’re not going to march with you into all the firms in town and watch you submit in person.

      Good luck! I hope it goes well.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Don’t worry. I went through that and had to go for these back in 2009/10.
      Basically, it’s a mandatory class where they help you make a resume and show you how to apply for jobs. For me, it was like “Duh,” but we have to remember it’s not the case for everyone. The requirement for UI in my state was 3 job search activities per week (classes or training like this, application, calls, job fair, interviews, etc.) and it’s not too taxing as I was doing that anyway.

      Because I already had my resume done and it was already online on all the major job sites too, I just mostly sat there, or helped others format their Word docs.
      I think some do have practice mock interviews as an option. That can be helpful.

  20. I work on a Hellmouth*

    Another week, another Hellmouth update! I’ve been having a hard time unpacking/winnowing down the list of everything that’s happened this week, but I think if I break it down into just the daily highlights I can keep it coherent. Here goes nothing!

    MONDAY: I worked alone with my boss. Which basically means that I worked alone. One me. Almost 400 apartments filled with unhappy people, all of whom wanted to call and yell about rent on the first regular business day the office is open after late fees start charging. Roughly 20 walk in tours. And a really bad upper respiratory infection that had me barely able to walk a few feet without wheezing and wanting to fall over and never get up again. Not my worst day on the Hellmouth, all things considered.

    TUESDAY: The boss has definitely decided it is my time in the barrel now that her least favorite leasing consultant has left. I was given a large number of extra tasks that she “did not have time to do” and was sent staggering off (still very visibly sick at this point) to run around and do them while she stayed inside and used the office kitchen to bake cookies for my coworker. I think they were chocolate chip (I wasn’t offered any). I decided to have a lunch break NOT in my car, which proved to be a mistake when a spider, unbeknownst to me, crawled onto my water bottle and then, when I picked up said water bottle to take a sip, JUMPED ON TO MY FACE AND BIT ME. ON MY FACE. I am never having lunch outside of my car again.

    This was also the day that my boss reminded us that new desks were showing up between 10am and 2pm the next day. And then suddenly had a freakout in the second part of the day about how we had to start packing everything NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW. When I asked about boxes, she dumped out a 6 inch by six inch box full of peppermints and told me to have at it. It held… maybe a quarter of the contents of one of my drawers? Then she spent TWO HOURS deep cleaning and organizing the already clean and organized back room in the most manic fashion possible. It kind of freaked us out.

    WEDNESDAY: I came in to find that all desks, phones, and computers had been dismantled—except for mine. So I handled all of the phone calls and resident issues for the first half of the day since I was the only one who could. My boss spent more hours doing weird cleaning. She then announced that she was ordering pizza for the office (sausage on every pie, which I hate—sorry, sausage lovers!) and got very angry when I opted to eat my packed lunch and take my usual lunch hour. As punishment I got to handle the office by myself while she shut everyone up in the conference room and called old employees of hers “cokewhores” for an hour. Honestly, I would have rather eaten with the face biting spiders, so I am okay with my choices here.

    And now we come to the most dramatic and not okay event of the week: An enraged resident stormed into our office and angrily informed us of his intent to shoot any employee that even knocks on his door. You see, his wife put in a service request and maintenance came to fix it and he wanted us to know that even approaching his apartment would get us shot. He was very serious. He meant it. He expressed it directly to my manager and to the room at large. And then he went down to the maintenance shed and told all of the maintenance workers the same thing.

    To me, this is a big deal. To my coworker, this is a big deal. To my manager, not so much. Her solution is just to non-renew his lease. Which is up at the end of September. She wasn’t even going to tell maintenance what happened, but the dude went and threatened them after threatening us.

    THURSDAY: I caught my boss taking a picture of me and texting it to someone. It was …not okay. I was too stunned to even know what to do at first, but after a few minutes I finally had the wherewithal to say “Um, Boss? Did you just… take my picture and text it to someone?” She then froze, and then said something about taking a picture of my office furniture set up and sending it to her boss (the regional VP), then gave way too much detail about what was in the picture and also listed things that COULDN’T have been in the picture because of where she was at when she took it. I also got sent out to an apartment where I discovered doors ripped off their hinges and a barbecue pit in the middle of the kitchen, but the picture thing kind of broke my brain and is taking up more space there right now.

    FRIDAY: Suck it, Hellmouth! I have called in and am spending the whole day applying to more jobs and eating really tasty food and maybe renting movies. THE WHOLE. DAY. Booyah! And while I got a slightly heartbreaking rejection yesterday, the company that I am currently most interested in is allegedly contacting me next week about setting up an interview. If anyone out there wants to light a candle/say a prayer/sacrifice a goat for me, I would not mind.

    So yeah. That’s my (believe it or not, very abbreviated) week.

    2. SoGladImNotAlone*

      Oh my dear Hellmouth. I hope something else comes through for you very soon. When a spider biting your face is preferable to spending time with your boss and coworkers, you know it’s bad.

      Also, please do write a sitcom proposal. Or start a blog. Something. You are very talented and I love your resilience and your sense of humor.

      2. I work on a Hellmouth*

        Aw, thanks! I have been thinking about maybe starting a blog, but then I wonder what I would write about post-Hellmouth that would be interesting. Although I cut so much stuff out, I guess I’d never really run out of Hellmouth stories… I’d have plenty of “lost episodes”! Like this week—I totally cut out The Battle of the Filing Cabinet.

        2. AnonAndOn*

          I am hoping that you *don’t* have anymore updates like this post-Hellmouth, because you deserve to work in a healthy environment where you are respected and treated well.

          I’m so sorry to hear about what you’re going through. I hope that the job that you’re planning an interview for pans out!

    3. Bee's Knees*

      Wow. By the time I got to the spider (any superpowers yet?) I already was shocked. The hellmouth doesn’t disappoint. I’m glad you’re taking a day for yourself. I would sacrifice of a goat for you, cause they creep me, but it would probably open up a portal and dump me there, and then where would we be? Tbh, I don’t know that your boss would make it through the day, cause she and I would have to go somewhere quiet and have a *talk*

    4. Totally Minnie*

      Are you positive that your boss is a human being, not a swarm of bees magicked into a human shape like that worm guy from season 2 of Buffy?

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        An avenue worth exploring, but I think honeybees are probably way more cuddly than my boss.

    5. Brogis*

      Wait, you’re doing updates on these threads?! That’s my commute reading sorted!

      Seconding the blog idea. I really love what you’ve written for Friday: it’s a textbook example of how to handle Life, no matter how weird or awful things get.

      Thinking of you and your struggles, and hoping things improve soon.

    6. Parenthetically*

      I would sacrifice all the goats, honestly, but surely there’s been enough goat sacrifice at the Hellmouth?

      I’m so glad you can update us with this as a precursor to publishing a very entertaining and ever-so-lightly fictionalized version of this one day to make zillions of dollars as your karmic reward, and may your next job be several zip codes from its nearest Hellmouth.

    7. Jersey's mom*

      Holy crap!

      I’ll do the only thing I can. I’m recovering from ACL surgery. For some reason, my mother-in-law has her congregation praying for my knee. I am confident my knee is smart enough to heal on its own, so I am diverting those prayers toward your job search. I am unsure of delivery dates for rerouted prayers, hopefully they will arrive soon.

      Good luck and enjoy the days off!

    8. AliceUlf*

      Before I read your post, my focus went straight to the line “JUMPED ON TO MY FACE AND BIT ME. ON MY FACE,” and I was sure for a moment that the guy had been right about the SQUIRRELS. Being relieved about a face-biting spider, instead, is a weird experience.

      Be strong, friend. *sends good vibes from the Getting-Out-of-Property-Management Sisterhood* *also sacrifices a squirrel*

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        This both made me laugh AND made me really grateful that my face wasn’t mauled by a squirrel. Truly, there is always a silver lining.

    9. SAHM*

      Seconding (Thirding?) the write a book, blog, or screenplay for this. Priceless. Also, praying you get an interview to a sane work place!

    10. BadWolf*

      Having recently read “Charlotte’s Web”, the spider was trying to tell you to “Get out” but mixed up the delivery a little bit.

        1. Batshua*

          We should talk, then, because it would probably be better to do it on behalf of you with more information about who you are than to say “This working is on behalf someone on AAM who goes by ‘I work on a Hellmouth'”… :D

    12. Veger*

      This is honestly the material of a sitcom. *gets popcorn and starts binge watching Hellmouth*
      Please let us know if you develop spider like super powers.

      (May you find a new job soon because, screw you Hellmouth Inc.)

    13. Wishing You Well*

      Exorcism? Smudging? Maybe something a little less messy than goat sacrifice…
      REALLY hope things get better for you.

    15. Gumby*

      So threatening to shoot anyone who comes to your door isn’t legal, right? I don’t want to Google it right now because I like having this job and also a life that is free of law enforcement surveillance (as far as I know) and there is a chance that some day I might need to have a security clearance of some sort. But that can’t be legal.

      Also, how does your manager intend to convey “we didn’t renew your lease and you must move out” to said resident?

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I just read this while eating lunch and it was the scariest thing I’ve read in a long time.

      I love goats, so no sacrificing but I will pet a goat for you while lighting a candle xoxo

    17. Not Gary, Gareth*

      My goodness. Spider bite or not, you’re a superhero just for sticking it out at that place. I would have… well, I’m not sure what I would have done by now in your position, but I’m pretty sure “hanging in there until I find something better” would have been REAL low on the list.

      I am also going to add my voice to the general clamor for a blog. I genuinely don’t think you need to worry about running out of stories once you’re no longer working there; not because of the lost episodes, but because you could just make shit up and NOBODY WOULD EVER KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. At this point you could be like “So this Tuesday my boss ripped off her own face, which it turns out was just a rubber mask, and underneath was a swarm of super extra venomous cobras in the shape of Cthulhu with killer bees for eyes, then she yelled at me and made me clean up poop with my bare hands” and we’d just be like “Yup, sounds about right for Hellmouth.”

      And probably one other person in property management would be like “Oh yeah, that’s happened to me before, sucks right?”

      What I’m saying is, you have a fantastic franchising opportunity on your hands and we are all here to eagerly buy into it. :)

    19. Not So NewReader*

      A dozen of each- candle, prayer and goat. No one should have to work under these circumstances. The fact that working conditions like this exist in the US or any where means all of us have failed somehow.

    20. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Holy moly. I hope you escape before the Hellmouth gets you. The tenants are getting more terrifying, your boss is getting more bizarre, and I don’t even know what to make of the barbecue pit. You have a job that isn’t to be left, it’s to be run from, screaming.

    21. Mimmy*

      Okay, I’ve decided to jump in and read this for the first time – holy CR*P you have an insane job!!! Working with residents is probably very difficult in any setting, but this one takes the cake!

      Sending up positive vibes and a hope that you find a new job in a much healthier environment soon.

  21. possible homeowner?*

    Sorry, this is a bit of an odd question and I’m totally sure that I’m overthinking things. I’m very early in my career (graduated college in Spring 2018, started working full-time for the company I interned with during the summers as a student). So, I’ve been working for this company for about a year in total. I live and work on the other side of the country from where I grew up and went to school, although my parents do plan on retiring here in a few years.

    Due to a series of incredibly fortunate circumstances, I’m in the position where I’m considering purchasing a home. However, I’m somewhat hesitant to do so because I’m concerned of how it will look to my coworkers and my bosses. Ideally, I would love to have a long career here. I’m passionate about the work we do and I’m part of a really strong group within the company, plus theres a lot of opportunity for growth and upward mobility. Basically, I’m wondering if putting down pretty solid roots will make me look more committed to the job (because I completely am, and my company’s had a bit of an issue with people who didn’t grow up in the area leaving after a couple years) or would you think it makes me look like I’m overconfident in my abilities and my position at work?

    1. CTT*

      At best people will think “Cool, she must have decided that she really wants to stay in our area” and at worst they won’t care.

    3. JustaCPA*

      I think you are way overthinking this. I cant imagine your work community would care in the slightest and if anything, it would be a positive, “oh “possible homewoner” loves it here enough to buy a house”

    4. Four lights*

      I think you may be reading too much into it. I don’t think anybody will think anything, and if they do it will just be that you plan on staying in the area for a while. I would make the best decision for you, and not worry about what they think.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      To be honest, I don’t think anyone would care, certainly not to the point of wondering how the home purchase impacts your commitment to the company. You’re far more likely to get people congratulating you and/or wondering how you were able to buy a home so early in your career. And that– the latter part– is just nosiness. You’re overthinking. Good luck with the purchase process!

    6. Minerva McGonagall*

      If you are happy and want to stay in the area, go for it! I don’t think your co-workers would think of you as overconfident if you buy a house.

    7. AnotherAlison*

      Don’t worry about it from a work standpoint. I graduated in May 2000 and bought my house in April 2001, and no one thought it was showy, risky, or otherwise. The only thing I will say is that it costs more than you might think, once you factor in furnishing, upkeep, taxes, etc. I didn’t have blinds for YEARS.

    9. GoodDawn*

      I bought my first home at a young age and will tell you that no one up the chain of command will give it a second thought. Anyone at your same level *who is not in a position to also purchase a home* will possibly look on with jealousy. My advice is to not make a big deal out of it. Your friends will be happy for you; haters are gonna hate.

    10. Lilysparrow*

      Of all the things one needs to consider in whether or not to buy a home, “how will this look to my boss and co-workers” is not one of them.

      Ever.

      At all.

    11. Parenthetically*

      Best lesson I learned at your age was that no one is thinking about me nearly as much as I fear. Everybody has their own life to worry about and “nice young former intern bought a house” is going to be the barest blip on anyone’s radar, requiring no further analysis, freeing you to do as you wish without considering how it will look to others. Go forth and home-own.

    12. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      At most, folks will think “Wow, Possible Homeowner is lucky to be able to buy a house so young!” … and then go on with their day.

      Congrats, and no need to worry!

    13. Anon for Now*

      I doubt anyone will read anything into it.

      The only thing I might suggest is that you consider holding off unless there are a lot of jobs in your field in your area. I bought my first house in my mid-20’s, and when I wanted to move a few years later for a job opportunity in another area, I couldn’t because I couldn’t sell my house (and I couldn’t afford rent and a mortgage). Buying a house is exciting, but it can be an albatross if you haven’t considered what you’d do if you want to move.

      1. NACSACJACK*

        This is what I would have said. If you have the 20% for a down payment and have factored in all the other costs, I would go ahead and do it. Keep in mind your future SO might live somewhere else. My parents counseled me against buying a house with my first job, so glad they did. I left that company and the whole state 18 months later. Four years into my career, I met someone who lived 600 miles away. At one point, I suggested we move to a major city exactly halfway between his home town and my home town. We didnt, but it was a possibility. At your age, the future is an open road.

        Congrats and let the haters hate. I know i was jealous of others who were able to buy at a younger age, but at the time I bought, I would have bought sooner if the ex had agreed. Life!

    14. Asenath*

      No one’s going to give it a moment’s thought! If anything, the sort of thing buying a house might imply – planning ahead, saving money, making a commitment to the area – are positive.

      The smartest financial thing I ever did was to buy a house on my own, and fairly early (although not as early as you). I had well-meaning people warn me about unexpected costs, since I wasn’t earning much then. But I lived there for some years, paying no more (and eventually less) than I’d have had to pay in rent, and building up equity which I used to get a nicer place all on one level (thinking ahead again). It was really a win all round.

    15. Lemon Zinger*

      Your living situation has nothing to do with your work. It’s nobody’s business where you live or how you spend your money.

    16. Uncategorized Rejections*

      Uh… how would anyone at your work know if you owned or rented? With the exception of one coworker who told the office he is house hunting, I have no idea as to the homeowner status of anyone.

    17. I'm A Little Teapot*

      All I can say is, don’t buy a house if you don’t actually want to own a house. It’s a very different thing than renting.

    18. Jen S. 2.0*

      Agree. At most, people will think, wow, she’s lucky and smart with her money! People buy houses all the time with little regard for how long they will live in them (they might be planning to rent them or flip them) and unrelated to how long they think they will be in their jobs.

      But mostly, most people really don’t think that hard about your living situation unless you bring it up all the time.

    19. Doodle*

      First of all, congrats on the job and on buying a place of your own!

      Second, you’re overthinking how people will interpret your buying a house — they will not see any deep meaning in it. Also, owning a house doesn’t mean you’re going to stay in the area. People buy houses, live in them briefly, sell them and move away…all the time (unless you’re in an area with a seriously bad market).

      Take your time doing the numbers, looking at places — have fun with it!

    20. Tinker*

      When I hear that a coworker has just bought their first house, I generally take it as an opportunity to tell all of my sewer line stories.

      (That horrifying moment when you’re sitting around at home peacefully reading and then hear from the vicinity of the floor drain in the basement an unexpected GLORP.)

      If I were to think about it — and I probably wouldn’t aside from bringing up the subject — what buying a home reflects about your attitude toward your abilities is that you probably expect to remain employed for at least the medium term and generally employable in positions at least comparable to your current one going forward. Barring, like, distinct indicators that you very clearly ought to think otherwise, I think that’s an exceedingly reasonable self-estimation to have.

  22. Folklorist*

    This is your Friday I’m-Really-Just-Here-For-The-Ducks-But-I-Guess-While-I’m-At-It-I’ll-Post-An ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!!!!! Ok, now we’ve all seen the ducks, so let’s duck out of here and go do something we’ve been putting off. Afterwards, we can come back here and brag about it!!!

    I’m going to finish this stupid $#$%^%$ newsletter.

    1. Lolli*

      Set up a meeting to discuss the latest on a hot potatoe that was passed back to me. Yea…fun times…
      Thanks for the anti procrastination post! Loved the duck pictures too!

    3. Lalaith*

      I finally made a doctor’s appointment that I kept not doing. Yay, I can finally take it out of my reminder app instead of editing the time over and over!

  23. Bee's Knees*

    Thanks to everyone who said to suck it up and ask my boss if I was supposed to come to those meetings, the answer was yes. It’s made my job easier when I can be there while everyone is in the same room.

    Someone paged um… Sally… on the intercom. I was confused, cause they just said Sally. I wasn’t sure how they would get the right one, but then I remembered. There is only the one. I have a fairly popular name. I am the only one here. Not surprising when there’s only about a dozen women, (Ah, STEM) but it hasn’t happened since elementary that I’ve been the only one with my name. I have taken great joy in not signing my emails with my full name. Is this what Beyonce feels like?

    Someone threatened to get a lawyer involved in something yesterday. No one has threatened me with the law since I left the paper, and it’s been over a month. I was almost starting to miss it.

  24. Transferring on Performance Review*

    Happy Friday Commentariat!

    I’m planning to apply for a position in a different office in late Feb/early March (why the delay? I have a week and a half international trip already booked flying in/out of current city, plus I don’t want to disappear for a week mid-application process)
    Self-assessments are due by the end of January, and one question is about goals/changes for the next year, the example given is moving disciplines, teams, offices, etc.
    Do I tell my current office in January, or do I wait until I’ve applied/am talking with new office in a few months?

    Related – how (if) would a resume be different as a transfer/internal applicant opposed to an outside applicant?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Don’t tell your current office. You’re /planning/ to /apply/, you’re not even interviewing yet. For all you know, the position will be closed by the time you get back from your trip (though hopefully not!). If your current position has any relation to possible!new!position, you could maybe work that in your goals for the year. E.g., you’re a llama groomer, and you’re apply for alpaca herding, you could say “get training on alpaca grooming” or “get training on llama herding.” Put down what your goals in current!position would be if new!position falls through.

      I don’t know about a resume being different, but a cover letter would be different for an internal applicant. I could talk in more detail about my work because I knew I could talk about our proprietary system.

      PS if your company is anything like my large corporation, hiring is so slow that you can apply and take your trips anyway ;)

  25. AdAgencyChick*

    First of all: The fish resignation photo is AMAZING.

    And now, asking for a friend (really), but writing as if it’s me. (I work really closely with the person in this situation, which is why I know so many details.)

    I’m a recently hired (but not new to managing) manager, and the team I’ve been hired to supervise includes several underperforming people. These people have been allowed to do work below what their job title indicates for months, some for well over a year, either because my position was open or because the previous manager was willing to tolerate low performance.

    Now, however, my superiors are insisting that I do a PIP and pretty much prepare to fire Fergus, the person they perceive as being the worst performer. After 3 months on the job, I don’t agree that Fergus is the worst: Although I think he’s underperforming relative to his job title, I think he can improve with coaching and I think he’s very talented in ways management isn’t considering, whereas Percival is also not up to his job title and I’ve seen a level of carelessness and apathy that makes me think he’s less likely to be coachable.

    What do we, the company, owe Fergus? On the one hand, he’s not performing at the level he needs to be — not here or at any organization with the same job title. On the other hand, the company let him do exactly what he’s doing for more than a year before I got here, so it seems like we should give him more time (with me actively managing him and pushing him to achieve at the level we want) before deciding it’s PIP time.

    If Fergus had been hired a month ago I would say cut him loose. But I think the company should own its part in letting things get to the point they’re at now and give Fergus more like a six-month plan than a one-month PIP, and also as the manager of this team I think Fergus has more potential to be good than Percival does.

    What say you?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Six months is a really, really long time for a PIP. At most, I’d do two months. At that point you should know if he’s going to be able to work at the level you need or not. (Maybe he won’t be exactly there yet, but you should see significant improvement if it’s going to happen.)

    2. Mockingjay*

      If the team hasn’t had real management in a year, I don’t think individual PIPs will achieve the results the company wants.

      Can you reframe things? “Going forward, our department/team will be doing this…” Then lay out a specific plan: roles, current and upcoming projects, schedules. Explain your role as well. Describe consequences for failure, but let them know you are there to help if they get stuck.

      By providing structure for the team to follow, you can better evaluate individual performance and determine who really needs a PIP.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      I agree with Alison, in that the PIP should be shorter than 6 months, but I think it should be applied to both Fergus and Percival. That way, if you’re right about Fergus he’ll improve, and if Percival has got into a habit of not caring, the PIP will either buck him out of it, or show that he needs to go.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          I 100% agree that he needs to be. Unfortunately, senior management perceives him as having a particular skill that we as a company are lacking in, so my colleague has a double hard row to hoe in terms of convincing them that if Fergus needs to be on a PIP, Percival needs to even more.

          Thanks all for the perspective on the length of the PIP that would be appropriate!

    4. Kathenus*

      I’m not going to get into the aspect of the length of PIPs or action plans, but instead focus on your question of what the company ‘owes Fergus’. At my last job I had someone in a lead role who was at best doing half of his job. But it was a similar situation, for over a decade he was not coached or mentored to the aspects of what should have been his job that he wasn’t doing. Think of someone who is the lead of the llama department, which includes the North section llamas and the South section llamas. While he does schedules and basic functions like ordering supplies for both sides, he focuses the vast majority of his time with the North section because that’s where he worked before and where he was most comfortable, and the South section staff feels unsupported and forgotten.

      My predecessor had allowed this for years, and when I came in my boss wanted me to take a very hard line and potentially demote this person to working only in the North section. I had to lobby hard, but eventually got permission to spend time setting clearer expectations for what he had to do in his lead role with respect to the South section and then see how he did with the extra information, structure, and training.

      So to stop rambling, I think that the organization does owe Fergus something – and that is the opportunity to be informed what he SHOULD be doing, along with any training or support needed to be able to realistically achieve these goals, and then a reasonable amount of time to let him succeed, or not.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Coming back to this very late, but hoping you see this: Thanks for that example. This is exactly what I’m uncomfortable with — that the company has let Fergus be who he is for so long, and all of a sudden they’re making my colleague do the work of getting rid of him, and on a rapid timeline. I think it’s not fair to Fergus (who should be allowed the chance to live up to clearly stated expectations) or to my colleague (who the rank-and-file will almost certainly view as “the bad guy” who fired their beloved Fergus; he is very well liked among junior staffers since they’re not evaluating him as a leader).

        What ended up happening with your employee? Did he rise to your expectations?

        1. Kathenus*

          Kinda? He did Ok, not exceptional but fine. He didn’t really like having to spend time and focus on the other area but he did and the team liked seeing him be held to performing his complete job.

          An ancillary problem when I started was that many on the team had long been frustrated that he hadn’t been held to account for doing all aspects of the job so it did help with the morale with them too.

          A year later I had the ability to promote a South lead as well so ended up with one that focused primarily on each area. So ‘my Fergus’ ended up officially in the job he had been performing eventually, focused on North. It worked to his strengths. A different person could have excelled covering both, but he had put in over 20 years and I think he earned the opportunity to first have a chance to be coached to do both, and to end his career in a role he was best suited for.

  27. More Money, More Problems*

    We had a sticky money situation at my job yesterday. I’m the senior admin assistant in a division with 150 people. One of our employees, Nicky, went into the restroom, set a $50 bill on the counter in the stall, and then accidentally left the money behind when she vacated the stall. She remembered the money, went back to the bathroom two minutes later, and another employee, Susan, was in there. Nicky checked the stall, didn’t see the money, and asked Susan if she had seen it. Susan denied seeing it. Nicky feels Susan took the money, but can’t prove it.
    Nicky had me send an email to our entire division to ask that the person who picked up the money return it in an envelope and leave it on my desk — hoping that Susan’s conscience would get the best of her and she would anonymously return the money. Susan instead came to my office and suggested that Nicky must have accidentally flushed the money. I have no idea if Susan actually took the money, but the whole thing has been disappointing. Glad it’s only $50, not something more valuable, but it’s still a decent amount of money to lose, and makes me sad that whoever found the money didn’t turn it in to lost and found.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      OK, so, the first thing that popped into my head was this: why on earth would someone have an unenclosed $50 bill somewhere and why would they put it down in a bathroom? Nicky has a lot of responsibility here. The whole story just doesn’t make sense to me at all. Is there already bad blood between Nicky and Susan? Is Nicky the type to “bring drama”? Is Susan?

      But I just keep coming back to side-eyeing Nicky. I don’t care if she doesn’t have pockets; I would have wadded up that bill in my fist before I set it down somewhere. It’s a piece of paper that can easily fly away, get flushed, get stuck on someone’s shoe, etc.

      1. More Money, More Problems*

        Nicky said she had tucked the money into the waistband of her pants and that is why she set it on the stall’s counter while she was using the restroom. I’m guessing the dress pants she was wearing didn’t have pockets.
        No bad blood at all between Nicky and Susan, in fact, they rarely if ever interact. Their jobs don’t require any interaction.
        Nicky is actually a very trusted person around here, so I didn’t question her story, but you make an excellent point about her responsibility for the loss!

        1. Doodle*

          I dunno, if I’m walking around with cash in my hand and I have to pee, I stick it on top of the tp dispenser in the stall. Or in my bra. Or in my sock. Or my shoe. Or hold it with my teeth. Or set it in my dropped pants. Or do my biz with just one hand. (And who walks around with a 50 tucked in their waistband?? It could fall out at any time!)

          Seriously, Nicky is a doofus and it’s too bad the money was stolen, and it’s really sad that people suck that much and steal money like that, but since you don’t KNOW what happened, Nicky is just going to have to get over it.

          1. :-)*

            I wouldn’t hold it between my teeth, that’s just… one never knows where that bill has been.
            However I would do everything else you wrote down: bra, sock, shoe, hold it in one of my fists.

            So yes, I agree that Nicky is the one who had the biggest part in this. You don’t walk around with that amount of money in your hand when going to the toilet.

        1. More Money, More Problems*

          Nicky said she was leaving the building to pay for something?!?
          This is why I love AAM. I never thought to even question Nicky’s account because she has an excellent reputation.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Even if her story is true, that the $50 was there to begin with, it’s disappointing that she immediately jumped to accusing Susan. Losing a bill like that is embarrassing and stressful, but going straight to accusing someone of theft is not cool.

            Next time she wants to use a bill to buy something outside of work and she doesn’t have pockets, she should take a wallet or an envelope. And leave it at her desk, go to the bathroom first, and go back for it. A $50 lesson.

            1. Anon because this is slightly identifying*

              Even if her story is true, that the $50 was there to begin with, it’s disappointing that she immediately jumped to accusing Susan. Losing a bill like that is embarrassing and stressful, but going straight to accusing someone of theft is not cool.

              If I were in Nicky’s shoes, and I’d left cash and returned two minutes later to find it gone and only one person in the area? I’d jump to the same conclusion.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I think all the “why did she have it out in the first place?” questions are awfully victim-blamey. Maybe it wasn’t wise, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

            It’s far more suspicious to me that Susan took it upon herself to come to your office and suggest Nicky must have accidentally flushed the money (which is a super specific and odd suggestion to go out of her way to make to you).

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              I considered that, but this story is just so odd to me that I don’t even know if she’s a victim. If the money was stolen, then yes, that’s wrong, but having been in situations where I lost something that I could have avoided, I don’t like the jumping to theft.

            2. Kate R*

              I thought that was a little suspicious of Susan too, unless she already knows Nicky accused her of stealing it and also thinks the email was specifically directed at her (it’s hard to say without knowing what was said in the bathroom or in the email). If someone accused me of taking something, and I said I didn’t, and then their boss accused of taking that thing (either directly or implied), I’d probably jump to defense with alternate theories too.

              1. Bagpuss*

                I’d assume that she did know, since Nicky already asked her directly and then there was the office wide e-mail.Even if Nicky didn’t directly accuse her, it doesn’t seem to me that it’s much of a jump for her to work out that Nicky was at the least suspicious of her, to put it no higher.
                Both Nicky’s actions in taking a loose $50 into the rest room, and Susan’s suggestion she flushed it seem weird, but I don’t find it strange for Susan to try to come up with suggestions as to what may have happened.

            3. More Money, More Problems*

              Oh yeah, the whole flushing theory from Susan was definitely….odd. Possible? Yes. Probable? No.

            4. Autumnheart*

              I wouldn’t necessarily consider it suspicious that Susan came to the office. Susan ran into Nicky in the bathroom, and Nicky asked her if she’d taken the money, and then gone to the OP. It would be reasonable to conclude that that’s what Nicky told OP, and therefore Susan came to OP to suggest that maybe the bill fell in the toilet without Nicky realizing. If I were Susan, I absolutely wouldn’t want a colleague telling management that I had stolen someone’s money. That seems like a way to get instantly fired and then have enormous trouble getting hired anywhere else.

              Anyway, Nicky learned that this is why you don’t leave unaccompanied cash bills lying around in common areas, and hopefully Susan isn’t being thought of a thief without any evidence.

            5. JamieS*

              Its not victim blamey if there’s no actual victim and we don’t know Nicki is a victim. Yes she lost $50 but that by itself doesn’t make her a victim just unlucky. Also it’s not that odd Susan made that suggestion since Nicki both questioned Susan and then a mass email was sent out making this appear to be a “big deal” that was being pursued. Her suggestion was perfectly reasonable and logical.

            6. SignalLost*

              That’s what I picked up on. Why would you claim (proactively) that the money was flushed when you’re the chief suspect?

              1. Totally Minnie*

                Probably because she knew Nicky suspected her already. If it were me, and I had been accused of taking money I didn’t take, I’d probably do the same thing. I don’t know if Susan took the money, but this in and of itself isn’t evidence that she did.

        2. Temperance*

          Whenever I hit the restroom before I grab food or a snack, I bring my badge and money/CC with me. I know everyone on my floor, so it wouldn’t occur to me not to be able to trust them. I don’t bring it into the stall because I’m a germaphobe and try and carry as few things into the bathroom as I can.

    2. LCL*

      I’m not convinced yet that the 50$ existed and disappeared under the circumstances Nicky describes. This is…weird.

      1. learnedthehardway*

        I tend to think that this is also a valid concern for the OP – goodness knows, I’ve been absolutely SURE I’ve done something with an item, been annoyed because the something isn’t where I left it, and later realized that it was somewhere else entirely.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Same. I’m not sure I would even consider this theft, more like “finders keepers, losers weepers”. Yeah, it would have been nice if the finder had returned the money when the email went out, but we’re talking about a $50 bill sitting without any sign of ownership in an empty restroom. It’s not like someone took it off Nicky’s desk or out of her purse.

        1. valentine*

          we’re talking about a $50 bill sitting without any sign of ownership in an empty restroom. It’s not like someone took it off Nicky’s desk or out of her purse.
          It’s theft all the same.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            No. It’s unattended abandoned property with no way of knowing the real owner. Stop.

                1. JamieS*

                  If you found $50 in a bathroom stall and a couple minutes later someone came into the bathroom and asked if you’d seen the $50 they’d accidentally left then you can’t claim you thought the money was abandoned nor that you couldn’t locate the owner. It’s theft plain and simple.

                  Even if they didn’t immediately come back for it I doubt anyone would buy the BS defense of “I thought it was abandoned so made no attempt to try to return it” if you got caught out.

          2. Doodle*

            Correct. If I found a 50 sitting in the ladies room, I’d take it to the office manager/lost and found, or send out an email: Found cash in ladies room. It’s not like it’s lying in the gutter. Obviously it belongs to someone in the office.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yep. A local library found a large bill in a pile of donated books. A message went out, “If anyone is missing some cash please contact us. Money will be released to the person who can describe the cash or how it might have been found.”
              No one answered and the cash went to the bank account as a donation.

        2. Lilysparrow*

          If it’s a public access restroom or a huge company, maybe that’s a reasonable attitude. If it’s a fairly small group of people with access to the restroom, and they all know each other and work together, this is off base.

          If you know it must belong to one of your co-workers (and you can eliminate half of them off the top by choice of restroom), you should look for the owner.

          1. Glomarization, Esq.*

            The lesson isn’t whether or not it’s theft. The lesson is that if you leave a $50 bill in a stall in a bathroom, public or private or semi-private, you’re simply likely to never see it again.

    4. Uncategorized Rejections*

      Too much time for Nicky to assume Susan was the culprit. A bathroom is a high-traffic area, there could have been others in the stall.

    5. Jersey's mom*

      Sometimes there are no “good guys” in a story.

      Nicky’s handling of a 50 dollar bill in the bathroom is weird, and that she remembered “two minutes later”. (Myself, I probably would have tucked it into my bra while in the bathroom.

      Susan’s response, well, I’ve nearly dropped many things into a toilet too. A light piece of paper could easily fall while a person was moving about in the stall.

      The take away I have here is that no one is a good guy or bad guy. As someone above said, an expensive lesson on how to not handle cash in a public bathroom.

      The only thing I’d watch for in the future is that this incident does not become a work issue (trash talking or bad mouthing) of either person involved.

      1. Jaid_Diah*

        +1 for the bra pocket. I have used that myself on the rare occasion that I’m not wearing jeans.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry but I have no sympathy if you put a chunk of change down and forget it. I’m enraged that Susan is under suspicion and considered guilty…when v someone made a $50 error of their own. It’s unacceptable to pass the blame, she’s petty and dodging blame. By catering to her, you are adding to a bad atmosphere.

      1. Jen S. 2.0*

        This is where I am as well. This is terribly unfortunate, but I have a hard time seeing Nicky as a victim here. Sometimes you … did a not-ideal thing, and sometimes you learn a tough lesson as a result. But it stretches the imagination to the point of breaking to think someone would turn loose cash in to lost and found. Like, wha? This reminds me of the letter where the LW left her snow boots in the recycling bin for 2 days, then was totally shocked when the custodians threw them out.

        Note: I once found $22 in a work bathroom stall. I put up a sticky note inside the stall (so the person would have needed to have come back to the specific stall to search) saying “Did you lose something in here? If so, contact Jen S. 2.0.” It was an odd amount of money, so when the person referenced the note and named the exact amount, I was happy to return it. But if the end of the work day had come and no one claimed it? Finders keepers, and my conscience would have been clear.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I like how you handled it!

          I have been lucky and twice gotten phones back that were left in stalls. Only once was it mine, other time it was a friend while on vacation. I was fully prepared to deal with the replacement process and a phone is helluva lot more than $50. It was my fault! The world is great when you catch a break in an unfortunate expensive brain fart but to act entitled to someone running around “you lose this!? You see who lost this tho?!” is wildly out of line with reality.

        2. Windchime*

          Really? I found a neatly-folded $100 bill in the middle of the aisle at JC Penney at Christmas time, years ago. I took it to the nearest cashier and turned it in. They took my name and number in case nobody came to claim it. That was somebody’s Christmas shopping money; it’s kind of sad to think it’s a “stretch of the imagination” that someone would turn it in to lost and found.

    7. Approval is optional*

      Wow, just wow. The amount of ‘victim blaming’ in response to this situation is amazing – and saddening. So many people who seem to think that making a mistake and leaving something valuable unattended is just as bad, if not worse, than someone who doesn’t own it picking it up and keeping it. Or that the careless person ‘deserved’ to lose it. Or that perhaps she’s lying and never actually had said item in the first place. Or that she should have ‘transported’ it in a better way. Using that logic, take a small jump and you’ll find it possible to justify snatching it from her person because she was careless about how she secured it.
      We all put things down and forget to pick them up again – our phones, our tablets, our keys etc etc – and we don’t deserve to have them stolen. A decent, honest person who finds something that doesn’t belong to them in an office (and other places too of course) hands it to the person/s who are best placed to find the owner; a decent, honest person doesn’t pocket the item.
      I doubt people would be saying the same thing if Nicky had left her phone behind in the stall. Is it that it’s money? After yesterday (and the faint memory of a post about a woman who dressed too ‘affluently’ for her colleagues liking), I’m inclined to think that there is some sort of difference between money and all other possessions in many people’s minds for some reason/s I can’t fathom.

      1. TechWorker*

        I’m 100% with you that it’s not ok to pocket the money in this circumstance. It’s also not at all ok to basically accuse someone of stealing with no evidence though, so I think to cast her as the victim here is a bit far. It’s unfortunate, but given there’s no proof anyone stole it at all, I would really consider them a victim. (Ditto if you like, left your phone on public transport or something, that’s shit but you’re not a victim..).

        1. Approval is optional*

          Well, firstly I wrote victim blaming in inverted commas because I was commenting on the attitude of some in the comments, not on the correct definition for someone in Nicky’s situation. Secondly, where does it say she accused her? The letter says she asked Susan if she’d *seen* it and now ‘Nicky feels Susan took the money, but can’t prove it.’ There is nothing to indicate that Nicky accused Susan of taking it when they met in the bathroom, nothing to indicate that Nicky has told anyone other than the LW of her suspicions, and there is certainly nothing to indicate that Nicky is running around the office screaming, ‘J’accuse’. And there is in fact some circumstantial evidence that point to Susan having taken the money, so suspecting her is not unreasonable IMHO.
          And I stand by my comments on ‘victim’ blaming. There are only a small handful of comments on the post that don’t criticise Nicky , or question *her* honesty, or say she is mostly to blame, or that she ‘learned a lesson’ and so on. Cries of ‘how dare she blame Susan without proof’ (though the people making those comments haven’t seen fit to call out people calling Nicky a liar with zero proof) , not a lot of cries of ‘poor Nicky, if someone took it, they are a thief and they suck’.

      2. Jen S. 2.0*

        One reason people are drawing a distinction about cash is that it’s nearly impossible to prove ownership, unlike a lost phone, lost wallet, lost child, stolen car, et cetera. If you *see* someone drop it? Absolutely you should grab it and give it back to that person. If it was in a bank envelope and someone accurately describes the envelope and amount? Sure, that’s proof enough. But unattended loose cash in an empty room is where things get blurry.

        That’s why I raise an eyebrow at the logic of turning it in to lost and found — the lost and found person is just as likely to pocket it as anything else.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Going out to pay for ‘something?’ With no purse, no keys, no phone? With a $50 bill stuffed in her waist band?

      Susan’s ‘she must have flushed it?’

      I would stay out of the drama.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, that is where I go also. I’d say that this stuff happens to the best of us and think of it as a learning experience.

        I will never forget the time I had personal check for cash beside me in the car going to the bank. When I got up to the teller’s window, it was gone. I never found it. It never got cashed either. I have no clue how that check got away from me with the windows closed. But it made me more aware how easy it is to lose small pieces of anything made out of paper.

  28. Arya Parya*

    Last October I started a new job as application manager. Which means I manage all the applications, website and apps. I take care they run correctly and if anyone runs into problems, error or don’t understand how something works, they come to me. I’ve got nothing to do with the data they put into the application. So for example: the content on the website is put there by our editors.

    My coworker uses a smallish application to enter contract data. My predecessor used to do that. I was asked not to start learning that one right away and focus on the core applications first. My coworker was told this several times by my manager. But at the end of October she came in asking if I could help out with a few contracts. Then she quickly explained the application and contract data to me and that was that, I now have this task as well. (She did this when my manager was out btw.)

    I understand the application just fine, but not the contract information. It’s in an Excel file that has way more (sensitive) data than I need and I don’t know what exactly is relevant. It was explained to me really quickly and I didn’t know she was explaining the whole task to me. I just thought I had to know those few contracts and get the rest explained to me later. (I’ve raised this a while ago and she’s been checking the most important contracts until we find time to do a proper knowledge transfer)

    So I’ve been thinking about this a bit and I really think this shouldn’t be my task in the first place. This is similar to placing content on a website, it’s not my strong suit and not what I was hired for. But I don’t think my coworker will want this task back. She says she’s very busy (aren’t we all?) and it was never her task to begin with. I understand that and am willing to compromise. Maybe a different file just for me with only the information I need, so I can pretty much copy and paste it. I’ve suggested this, but she just wants to keep things the way they were and is only willing to explain the Excel file to me again. She basically told me I just have to deal with it.

    I’m trying to set a bigger picture meeting with her, my manager, her manager and me, to discuss the options. Any advice on how to raise this and get a good outcome for all involved? I think my manager has my back on this, so that’s something. But if you think I should suck it up and do the task, then I’d love to hear that too. Just looking for some perspective here and I like to know if I’m being unreasonable.

    1. Annie Moose*

      Have you talked to your manager about it at all? It sounds like your coworker just dumped it on you without your manager actually making that decision. Before pulling her manager into it, why not have a chat with your own manager about it and see what she says? It’s not unreasonable to expect your manager to assign you work, not random coworkers.

      1. learnedthehardway*

        Another vote for this. Sounds to me like the OP’s coworker took advantage of the manager’s absence to reassign her work to the OP.

      2. Arya Parya*

        Yes, I’ve discussed this with my manager and he is on my side. He already agreed to the meeting.

        1. Ali G*

          What does it mean that he is “on your side?”
          You need to have agreement on the outcome before this meeting. What is the resolution to the problem that you want, and is your manager in agreement?

          1. Arya Parya*

            That’s a good one. He’s been out most of this week, so we haven’t spoken much. I will discus this with him on monday.

        2. LALAs*

          What does “on my side” mean?

          If the task is not your responsibility, then your boss should tell co-worker (or co-worker’s manager) that you will not be doing it so they need to make arrangments.

          If he means that it needs to be explained to you better but that it is your task, then why the need for the meeting with the managers? You just need a meeting with the co-worker to go over it properly.

          1. Arya Parya*

            I think we both agree that this shouldn’t be my task, but I will make sure of that monday. As the task was done by my predecessor I do believe there should be a discussion about it and we can’t simply hand it back. That’s why I think we should have a meeting about it and go over our options. But I’ll make sure my manager and I are on the same page first.

            1. valentine*

              Why can’t you hand it back as simply as she dumped it on you? You could send everyone an email making it sound like she misunderstood your role and the last time you did the task will remain the last time. Having your back would mean your manager shutting it down as soon as he knew. It might help you to take time to drill down and confirm instead of running with assumptions, like details of the task and your manager’s position on this exploitation of you. If you can’t say no to coworkers, say you need to get back to them, then say no. I’m guessing your manager is away a lot, you don’t want to “bother” him, or you want to discuss things in person, any of which will delay you getting a no to future boundary tramplers. (Plus, the possibility he will agree and you’ll end up doing a hodgepodge of other people’s work.)

              1. Autumnheart*

                It sounds to me like this task is actually the responsibility of OP’s role, since OP’s predecessor did it. And if coworker was assigned the task as a stopgap, and is still covering the more complicated contracts while OP does the simpler ones, then in my view there should be a meeting to talk about the scope of the task, who should own it, and how to get OP fully trained on managing it. The coworker didn’t exactly go through official channels to move the task (back?) to OP, but on the other hand, if it was dumped on the coworker while OP’s position was being filled, then I feel a little sympathy for the coworker.

                So in the end, I think the meeting is a good idea, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the correct result would be that coworker takes the task back. The task might belong under OP’s role. Or there might be an entirely different person who should take it. But you need the meeting to figure that out.

            2. ..Kat..*

              He’s the manager. Why isn’t he just telling your coworker to do this? Or talking to her manager?

  29. Rosie The Rager*

    First week working at the strange PR firm

    After a very rushed interview and reference check in late December, I began my new part-time position with a boutique PR firm Monday. My boss, the owner, previously told me to “chill out” when I inquired about having a written job description in late December but did provide one Monday (albeit from 2010) before leading me through a 90-minute discussion about the job’s primary responsibilities.

    The role itself reflects many things I’ve done previously but uses unfamiliar customer relationship management programs Insightly, but the writing and social media engagement are duties I’ve handled for a variety of organizations. I’m not terribly concerned about completing tasks in a timely manner, but I do have some worries about the workplace itself. Please read below and let me know your thoughts.

    Pros:
    **I am currently the sole occupant of a lovely small shared office space with a newish Mac computer. This means I have privacy to work and think aloud as well as easy access to the bathroom and kitchen.
    **Management encourages workers to listen to podcasts or audiobooks to make the day go by faster.
    **The drive is about 12 minutes from home with only three turns.

    Cons:
    **The single-owner company means that the owner’s husband and child frequently stop by and throw off the schedule for the day.
    **Even after asking on two occasions, I still have no pay schedule.
    **My supervisor has mentioned firing employees on four occasions, even after I redirect the conversation or offer a non-committal “Well, that’s unfortunate, but not every job is a fit for every person. I hope s/he has found a more suitable position.” She still talks about it, much to my annoyance.

    Odd:
    **I have no keys and must wait outside each and every time I need to enter the building from starting in the morning until returning from lunch.
    **My boss is paranoid about privacy but declines to protect any materials and leaves information laying on the kitchen island, on various office desks, and in the office supply area.
    **On two occasions, the owner commented on how difficult it is to find competent people to fill the admin vacancy. She has made disparaging statements about how people respond to interview invitations and their responses. I feel uncomfortable engaging in this discussion but don’t wish to be rude.

    OK, what are your thoughts, AAM commenters?

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      *Chrissy tiegan cringing gif*. The lack of answering about the pay schedule alone is making me side eye them. It all doesn’t sound so great. Is it possible to look elsewhere, espnsince this is PT?

    2. Working with professionals*

      I agree with Nervous Accountant about the pay schedule. Circle back around in an email if possible and ask for that schedule in writing. I too think it might also be in your best interest to start looking for another job.

    3. Totally Minnie*

      The pay schedule thing is my biggest concern here. You’ve got financial commitments to meet, and it’s not unreasonable for you to want to be sure that your salary will allow you to do that.

      Apart from that, your boss seems really unprofessional and not great at picking up on norms/conversational cues. I’d definitely be watching her closely if I were you.

    4. WellRed*

      You say the building, but isn’t it her house? Weird, but not as weird as if it were an office building. The pay thing is a big deal.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        WellRed, the office is a converted Victorian home in the historic district.

        I have never indicated that she and her family reside in the space.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      Oh dear — this sounds so much like a nightmare of an employer who I worked for for 44 days before I quit in disgust. You probably should be polishing your resume for a potential quick exit.

    6. Former Expat*

      The pay schedule is a little alarming. Having said that, your state/country/etc has rules about how often people need to be paid. In my state, non-professional employees must be paid at least twice a month and paydays are the 1st and 15th of the month unless otherwise stated. Professional employees can be paid once a month. Look up the applicable laws for you and bring it up like “it is my understanding that I’ll be paid on the 15th (or next Friday or whatever) based on the relevant laws, is my understanding correct?” You might get a snippy response, but pay is huge so I think it is worth it for peace of mind.

      Hope this helps!

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Former Expat, I have bookmarked the websites because of previous issues with getting paid, but I remain hopeful that I will not have to use the information for this position.

        1. zora*

          I agree with Former Expat, I would be super diligent about getting paid and I would be continuing to job hunt, because if you can find a more stable situation, that would be the best in the long run.

          The pay schedule thing is the most sketchy, since (in the US) there are laws about how soon you must get paid after doing work. Have you filled out W2s, I-9s, etc? As in, are you sure taxes are getting paid appropriately?

          If you do not get paid on the 15th, you need to take this very seriously. It is extremely hard to get back pay out of employers if they don’t pay you at the right time, so it is much safer for you to get paid at the right time than to have to figure this out after the fact. Please look out for yourself, I have a job where I never got paid correctly and I gave up after a while and that really sucked. I wish I had been more diligent at the beginning or just quit instead of giving a terrible person so much unpaid work (which was the end result).

    7. learnedthehardway*

      I’d keep right on job hunting, personally. The job sounds very unstable, the employer sounds somewhat unstable, and the company has had significant employee attrition.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      OhBoy OhBoy OhBoy.
      You’re sure the brave one, aren’t you?

      I remember your post about the interview. I’m surprised you took the job. The biggest hurdle here is the pay and the pay schedule. Other things can be put down to this owner’s dingbattyness, but you need to get paid in a timely and regular manner, not when Ms. Dingbat feels like it. Clear that hurdle first.

      And I do hope she really is just that dingbatty, and not mean and malicious. These kinds of private owner work situation are just so fraught with drama.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      I think your whole perspective on the situation is hard to understand.

      You work 15 hours a week for $12 per hour. You were wierdly insistent on getting the owner to generate a written job description for a part-time, low-wage position — but you’ve worked a whole week with no clue when you’re going to get paid?

      You just started this week. And you expect keys to the building? Why would anyone give you keys?

      You work 15 h/w, in a computer/writing based job, but for some reason you are going in and out multiple times between arriving and lunch? Why?

      You said the owner is your boss and you work alone, but then you refer to “management” and “your supervisor” as if they are different people. How many people actually work there?

      I think the owner keeps talking about turnover because she’s not sure if you’re going to be there long, either. You should certainly keep looking.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        LilySparrow, I don’t appreciate your aggressive and disrespectful tone.

        Going forward, please refrain from commenting on my posts.

        Thank you!

        1. Researchalator Lady*

          Rosie, you’ve said this is your first job; Lily is pointing out several huge red flags and inconsistencies in a succinct — even pointed — manner. It isn’t that she is being disrespectful, I think. It’s that you’ve carefully crafted your language to suggest one image (a “boutique PR firm” with management/supervisor/owner) when it sounds quite a bit different to us when the details are ferreted out (working in the home? office of a woman with no payroll system or schedule and questionable professionalism. That’s hard to hear, I know.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      This is Not Good.
      This is a boss that will never be pleased with your work. Oh, she may seemed pleased from time to time then “but…..”.
      The way she talks about others may be the same way she will talk about you in the future. She is showing you.
      Compounding matters she is creating her own problems. She wants tight security but she does not practice those habits herself. Over time you may come to realize there is nothing you can do to help her combat her own lax approach.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Not So NewReader, I agree with you in that people show you who they are. Consequently, I have low expectations for the role. It’s my first official PR job, and I worry that this level of disorganization might be normal, or at least acceptable, for this line of work.

        I appreciate your insight and will do my best to let her “lax approach” go for the sake of my sanity and a meager paycheck.

    11. Windchime*

      I thought the whole thing sounded kind of iffy to begin with. What are your thoughts about it? The commute and private workspace sounds nice, but the rest seems kind of…..odd.

    12. JS#2*

      Thanks for following up with how this is going!

      Like others have said, the alarming part is the no pay schedule. I wish I had advice for this, but I don’t have experience with it.

      The other stuff, like the trash-talking old employees and potential future admins… is awkward, but not that surprising. She’ll probably keep talking about it forever (my boutique marketing firm boss sure did), but if you keep deflecting the conversation it may go away. She’s probably just looking for affirmation for her judgments and if you don’t give it to her, she’ll likely eventually just stop. I found that sort of talk from my boss hard, because I always wondered what she’d say about me after I left! (Eventually I realized that her opinions about past/future employees weren’t particularly grounded in fact, so it became less important to me what she said about me.)

      The lack of keys is weird and inconvenient, too. Do you have to wait for someone to let you in to the office? Are you supposed to get keys, but just haven’t received them… or are you not allowed to have a key? I wonder if you could frame the issue to your boss in terms of it being a productivity issue? Especially if you have to wait a while for someone to let you in.

      Please keep us in the loop about the job!

  30. MechanicalPencil*

    Advice needed/wanted:

    I’m in the midst of a hellacious project. By the time we reach our goal end date, it will be a year since I began working on it. It’s mismanaged, poorly communicated, and just all around frustrating. I used to enjoy coming to work but now dread it. I took a week off over the holidays and came back to an absolute mad house, so time off isn’t really the best move. I don’t have any inspiration or motivation to actually do my work, which in a creative field is somewhat problematic. Is there some way to find some happy again, or do I just need to keep trudging ahead?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      When in hellish times, I do a stupid but surprisingly effective trick… I keep a secret.
      I write the first initials of secret messages to myself on post-it notes and every time I look up, I giggle to myself.
      Or I wear a secret pendant under my clothes that has a particularly sassy message on it.
      Or I make sure that the solar powered bobble heads are getting plenty of light so there’s a dance party going on in my cube.

      Which gets me through the minute to minute of the hellish times.

      Then, I let myself start to plan my escape. Which could be to push for changes that would fix the hell … or to start job searching for somewhere better. Small steps. Small giggle. Small steps. Rinse, repeat.

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Clever!

        This reminds me of the person who suggested writing a terrible person they work with’s name on a piece of paper and stick it in their shoe, so that every time the person was terrible to them they could secretly grind it down.

      3. Tort-ally HareBrained*

        You need Blue Q socks! Which say things like “bitches get stuff done” and “this meeting is bullshit” to add to your secret stash. I still remember giggling when our department director walked in to show me the first pair on the way to a meeting. I think it made her day as much as mine.

        1. Bluebell*

          Yes- I have these! I gave a friend of mine “this meeting is bull****” and I have “duchess of sassytown “. There are so many good ones!!!

  31. educational assistance*

    Does anyone here have experience creating and managing a tuition reimbursement program? I’m tasked with that at the moment. For the most part it seems deceptively straight-forward. One thing that I’m having trouble with is figuring out whether there are any legal restrictions on what sort of education you can reimburse for. This is for a non-proft that employs people who tend to have large barriers to higher education. We want to open reimbursement up to CDL training, cosmetology, etc. Trying to confirm that the IRS is cool with this being tax exempt :) I don’t see anything in the law explicitly ruling it out.

    Also what was your experience with paying out? Check request form? Any other helpful info?

    1. fposte*

      I believe it has to be an eligible educational institution (the IRS has a vast list of eligible institutions) for it to be tax-exempt. I’m afraid I don’t know anything more about the logistics, though.

      1. educational assistance*

        This is what I thought to0 but every time I’ve looked back at the law on this I haven’t been able to pinpoint where it says this. I also need to pin down the difference between tuition reimbursement and professional development. If you can pay for employees to get certifications and attend conferences, is there any reason you have to limit yourself to the $5250/ year cap and legalities of tuition reimbursement? Are those professional development costs also capped per employee?

        1. fposte*

          It’s not the law you need to look at but the IRS docs themselves, and they’re pretty googleable. If you look at the IRS page entitled “Tax Benefits for Education,” for instance, it has an overview and links to publication 970 and more info about eligible educational institutions, which includes a link to the list of those institutions. That’ll also help walk you through which expenses are tax-exempt and which aren’t.

          The IRS doesn’t, AFAIK, care if you want to reimburse an employee a million dollars a year. It’s just that it’ll be taxable as compensation when you go past the cap.

          1. educational assistance*

            Thanks! That’s where I’ve been looking and I don’t see the eligible institutions outlined under the employee assistance program specifically. I see those outlined in other sections, though. I feel like I’m missing something simple here.

            1. fposte*

              Okay, interesting–I just found one source that says they do *not* need to be an institution that’s approved for federal aid. That means that I was wrong in thinking I knew about this, unfortunately, so all I’ve done is make you more confused. I offer in compensation a link in followup that’s clear and well sourced, at least.

        2. Natalie*

          A lot of tax rules aren’t spelled out in the law, they’re documented in regulations, rulings, private letter rulings, etc. If you can, I’d really recommend running this by a CPA or tax attorney with expertise in this area. It shouldn’t cost that much.

          1. educational assistance*

            This is a great point. I will make that recommendation strongly (and already have) to leadership. The approach is very DIY at the moment, but I agree that this should be signed off on by someone more adept at navigating this stuff.

  32. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m 57392 hours ahead so I’ve had a lot of time to think and write. Anyway, not much is going on workwise since I’m traveling. Just curious about it and how this happens @ other places and what other options there are.

    Part of my job involves listening to client complaints. A lot of the complaints say “I was never notified my
    Accountant is gone.”…. Whenever someone leaves, we send emails to clients informing them of the staff change and constantly encourage the accountants taking over to reach out to their new clients. We’ve had a few people who were so upset about the change that they left but that’s unavoidable.

    Any ideas on how we can reduce these complaints? The only time I’ve received notification of a staff change is for doctors so I don’t feel this type of notification is unusual. I feel like a mass email + accountant contact should suffice and calling each and every client is not a good use of our time & resources.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Make a phone call in addition to sending an email. Emails like that can get glossed over or end up in spam folders.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        We do encourage the accountant taking over to call and speak to the client and of course document every attempt. The mass email Is sent out by the company. (Client emails and mass emails have been disabled).

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I think the call needs to be made by the accountant who is leaving, especially if it means their clients can’t go with them. It’s better if they’re the ones who close that relationship and open the other.

          1. valentine*

            A lot of it is going to be “I didn’t like the news, so I ignored it, but it didn’t go away and now feel newly confronted.”

          2. Teeth Grinder*

            No, no, not the departing accountant. What could be more natural than for the client to ask where Former Accountant is going? Then, presto, it’s also Former Client.
            Second, what about Involuntarily Former Accountant? You definitely don’t want to give them extra opportunities to contact clients.
            Put together a script for New Accountant(s) to use to reach out to the client – both contracting client and day-to-day contact – both by phone and email. Phone calls are more personal for introductions, with the email to document and provide contact information for New Accountant, because the client will inevitably forget what was said on the phone.
            Have a standard procedure for such transitions, and make sure that it is followed each and every time. Checklist in the client binder, maybe? Or on the client dashboard, in this paperless (snort) age?
            It’s totally normal for accounting firms to have personnel changes at the staff level. Be proactive and matter of fact reaching out to the clients, and they will have no reason to think it’s anything out of the ordinary.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think that when you’re dealing with people’s money that it’s almost akin to having a doctor/patient relationship — there’s a great deal of trust in one person who has access to very sensitive information. So I think contacting each client IS a good use of time. It doesn’t need to be a call but it should be more than an email (those are way too easy to just get blocked by spam filters). A letter would be best and it can be a form letter. Unless your turnover is extremely high, this shouldn’t be a huge expense and the retention of clients would probably negate it.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        sorry when I said contact I meant, we won’t have admins callling up 100+ clients to inform them of a staff change; we put that responsibility on the accountant.

        I do like th idea of a letter, but I feel like it has potential to be treated like another email?

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          It’s possible, but I take letters more seriously than emails if they come from a company I already do business with and they don’t look like a solicitation — so no “Open immediately! Great offer inside!” type fluff on the envelope. I have to hand sort the snail mail that comes in, but junk mail filters on email ensure I never even see the email.

        2. A Non E. Mouse*

          I have run many projects (stick with me, this is relevant), and in the last few years have run several where we made announcements in meetings, hung signs, sent mail (to the outlying locations) and in no instance went below 20 (literally, 20) emails about changes.

          And we still had people claiming they knew nothing about the changes.

          So: your goal isn’t to make sure everyone read/understood your communication, your goal should be to communicate in enough different ways that most sane, normal people will at least have an inkling in their mind that they heard something about this, now that you mention it.

          I would email, send a letter and then call. Any other communications – automatically created quarterly statements, for example – should have a reminder about the change included for at least 2 cycles. If someone calls the main number and asks for the old person, they should be transferred to the new person *and a notation made* that information about the new person be regenerated and sent to them again.

          Communicate communicate communicate. Smoke signals if you have them, fridge magnets are probably a good idea too.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          For many places letters do not get treated like email.

          You can start the letter by saying, for your records/contact list this is the new accountant at our firm who will be handling your account. This makes it sound important.

          If you want you can say, please expect a follow up phone call in the weeks to come as an introduction and touch base. The follow up call here is not just continuity and flow, it’s also redundant. Sometimes we have to say things twice to be heard once.

          There is a certain amount of attrition with any change. It’s normal human behavior. I don’t know what the normal percentage is for your arena. A friend who runs a business has learned to expect a 3-5% attrition rate each year is normal and easily explained. (Different arena, though.) His numbers go above that 5% max and he stops to see what is going on. This range gives him freedom to quickly check the big picture and move on to something else if the attrition is within the range. It might be helpful to know what the norm is for your work.

      1. Mrs_helm*

        How often do these clients work with their accountants? I see ours about once a year, so even if I got the email, I would totally forget. I’d probably delete it, since it wasn’t actionable. A paper letter might help, since I could file it with my paperwork. (But I wouldn’t freak and storm out, even if you hadn’t told me.)

        I think how closely these people worked makes a difference, though. An example: My husband’s doctor recently left the practice and they brought in a new doc. Hubby was not happy. He sees the doctor 3-4x a yr, and has things to work on. Would he have to explain things all over? Would new doc be harder on him about his lifestyle choices? Etc.

    4. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I am not sure there is much you can do about this because the minute your firm puts IMPORTANT in the email subject line (and they all do, for this kind of communication), it’s probably going straight to a lot of people’s spam filter.

      My advice, which is meaningless unless you have control over this, would be to make sure the subject line of the email says it all: “Mike Smith’s clients will be transferred to Jan James” or “Jan James is your new account contact, Mike Smith has left the firm” or “Mike Smith departure, Jan James new account contact.”

      I applaud sending some kind of email – years ago, I went to a scheduled doctor’s appointment, only to find my doctor had retired and the practice had changed hands. The receptionist was the same, and she said, Oh, didn’t you know? He took out a full-page ad in the [newspaper of a different city] announcing his retirement. They didn’t call to cancel my appointment, just assumed that I would see a random newspaper ad from three towns over.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Send noticed. It’s all that’s within your power, you can’t put it on an incoming accountant to do…”encouraging” them to reach out isn’t working because they don’t want to be bothered, they don’t take the complaints and possibly don’t assume they’ll be there long enough to take that step.

      You can at least fall back on “We sent a j notice but the USPS must have eaten it, I’m sorry about that.” Then wash away the guilt they’re laying on you.

      I’ve always been hooked into firms with limited turnover, I’m shivering at the idea of our accountant just dancing away into the night one day without a retirement notice. I would assume the outgoing accountant isn’t going to be tasked with it because they’ll possibly lead to taking clients with them. If my accountant didn’t run her own firm, I would follow her if she changed…

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      I assume the firm has an admin/receptionist/intern or two…..could they possibly work it into their schedule? Perhaps a quick call informing them of the change, providing contact info for new accountant, and a “Bob” looks forward to working with you would help a lot. I work with CPA firms routinely and whenever the person I’ve been dealing with leaves midstream, I have received calls from both the new CPA taking over as well as the firm’s admin informing me of the change. I think either one is really fine. I assume that most of your clients are small business owners/wealthy individuals. If so, the personal attention is really worth it and that client base seems to be receive it well/expect it.

    8. Nasturtium*

      From a client’s perspective — when our lead auditor left we were notified, but there was no followup to let me know who was going to be doing our audit the following year. I needed to know who I would be working with, so I could get in touch with them if I needed to. I ended up calling our old auditor’s superior a couple of months later to ask, and he was nice about it, but also implied that I shouldn’t be alarmed by the change. I wasn’t alarmed, I just hadn’t been given all the information I needed to proceed with the next audit.

      Encouraging the new accountant to reach out may not be enough, and may not be consistently happening. I know they are busy, but there needs to be some consistent process to notify clients who they will be working with when a change happens.

  33. Zen Cohen*

    Extremely low stakes question: I don’t work in my office every day so I’m often the last to sign birthday and condolence cards. And by the time I get the cards all the good blurbs are taken! I feel super uncomfortable writing something that has already been written. What are your go-to office card blurbs for condolences/birthdays/get wells? I need some new material!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I get hung up on finding the right wording for this stuff too and often google for phrasing that hasn’t already been used. I try to keep in mind that for condolences, it’s often more the thought that matter than the actual words. “So sorry for your less; thinking of you/your family” is perfectly fine even if repeated incessantly. For birthdays, I usually go with “hoping this is your best year yet!” which I am surprised I never see already used.

    2. nutella fitzgerald*

      One of my coworkers is known for her tiny line drawings in greeting cards.

      But I don’t think I’ve ever thought twice about a repeated sentiment in a group birthday card that was for me!

    3. AnonEMoose*

      I’ve used “Enjoy your day!” for birthdays, and “thinking of you at this difficult time” for condolences.

    4. Audrey Puffins*

      I always write “Happy birthday! Have a good one!” no matter who it is. Birth and loss cards don’t come around often enough for me to have a standard phrase, and I do try to personalise leaving cards. But birthdays come around SO often, and I don’t think I’ve ever read every single blurb in the cards I’ve received, that I don’t feel any guilt or whatever over repeating the sentiment. I do hate it when someone else has already written it in the area where I like to sign though, then I have to sign it on the other side so it looks less like I’m copying.

    6. LilySparrow*

      I’ve never really considered this a creative outlet. I pretty much stick with “Happy Birthday” “Feel better soon” or “we miss you” and some form of “thinking of you” or “sorry for your loss.”

      Does anyone actually read these things anyway?

    7. Jessi*

      No one is going to know that you were last either and might think the other person came after you!

    8. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      For fun cards like birthday and congratulations I am quite boring and write “Happy Birthday” or “Congratulations”. My coworkers have taken to printing out tiny little internet memes and gluing them in the card (I realize this only works for small groups). For serious cards I try to make the message a bit more personal — that’s the only one I would expend mental energy on TBH. I’ve never done a get well card at work.

    9. zora*

      I make a deliberate attempt to NOT read what anyone else has said until I’ve written mine. Then, it might be a duplicate of someone elses’s blurb, but I know I didn’t copy it. If there are enough signatures that there are duplicate messages, I don’t think anyone is that offended. I know I don’t mind when people repeat comments on cards for me, I still appreciate that they signed it!

    10. Marthooh*

      Stick with the classics: happy birthday, best wishes, so sorry for your loss, thinking of you, get well soon.

    12. Marion Ravenwood*

      For birthdays, I normally go with ‘happy birthday, hope you have a great day!’ and a smiley face. For condolences, ‘sorry for your loss. Thinking of you’. We haven’t had that many get wells over the course of my career, but I’d probably say something like ‘wishing you a speedy recovery’.

      That said, there are some excellent ideas on this thread and I might have to steal some of them.

  34. nutella fitzgerald*

    Happy New Year, AAM-ers!

    Requesting your thoughts on a philosophical quandary. Is it possible to be an effective manager when you have never actually worked in the role(s) your direct reports perform? I am considering a move into management but in my experience, my best managers have been those who had prior experience with the positions they were supervising me in.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes, assuming you’re at a fairly senior level (as opposed to a line manager). I actually just recorded a podcast episode yesterday that talks about this (it’ll air later this month).

      You need to agree on clear, measurable goals so you can see if they’re being met, you need a good BS detector, and the rest of the stuff I talk about here:

      https://www.quickbase.com/blog/5-secrets-to-managing-an-it-team-when-non-technical (no idea why my byline isn’t on that, but it’s mine)

      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/should-your-manager-know-how-to-do-your-job.html

    2. NJ Anon*

      I currently supervise an admin assistant and data analyst. I have never held these positions per se but have worked in various offices throughout my career and draw on those experiences.

    3. I’ve Had Too Many Managers*

      It depends on your industry and the manager. I’ve worked with managers who didn’t do my job and were terrible, and those who didn’t do my job and were amazing. I think the key is not to micromanage the day to day of a position you’ve never done. Setting realistic expectations is also important.

    4. pcake*

      My husband and I used to disagree on this one when discussing it. I have managed people successfully who work in jobs I have little experience with, and it worked out fine. This may vary depending on the industry and job, but I find if you work with people in technical positions, it helps to have a go-to person who can answer a few technical questions every so often or to help an employee who has a knowledge/ability gap.

    5. fposte*

      Yes, of course. And the higher you go, the more impossible it would be for you to have done the jobs of everybody under you.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Right! This is the thing I never understand about people who argue that managers have to know how to do their employees’ jobs. Do they really think the COO knows how to do the work of everyone under her?

    6. Teapot librarian*

      Hoarder Employee just tried yesterday to pull the “I’ve done this so I know better than you” card with me. True, he’s done it, but I’ve watched it be done for over 3 years so I know that the way it’s being done is inefficient.

    7. Tinker*

      It’s probably different for different sorts of roles (maybe also different levels?), but my experience has been that the thing that made my good managers good was primarily their manager-specific skills and not whether they had done work similar to mine in the past.

      I tend to appreciate what I internally label as “Manager Tools” sort of managers — “servant leadership” might be the word, but I think of it a bit more in terms of different skillsets — that a manager goes to meetings, reports status to upper-level management, organizes our response to higher-level strategic directives, handles budgets and approvals, things like that, so that I have the information and resources necessary to do my (mostly technical) work to best advantage.

      Possibly arrogantly, I tend to think that I don’t really need two of me because there already is one; what I need more is people that are either good at or better positioned to do the things that I need done but am not all that effective at doing myself.

    8. The RO-Cat*

      Google researched its own teams for ages now. They identified ten traits that make a manager (low- to middle- positions I’d presume) exceptional; out of those, 6 pertain to Emotional Intelligence, 3 are miscellaneous and only 1 is about technical profficiency. If you have one go-to person for tehcnical stuff you got that covered (assuming the other 9 are there, of course). If you’re curious, go to rework -dot-withgoogle-dotcom, it’s a treasure trove of free resources, data and tools that Google put out for the world to use (I’m not affiliated or anything, I just use that in my work).

      And the higher up you look, the less necessary technical prowess becomes.

    9. Gumby*

      Yes, you can be an effective manager. But don’t pretend to know stuff you don’t!

      Also? Do not be like the CEO at a company I used to work for: Fergus was visibly *proud* that he did not understand the internet/websites. He *bragged* about it. Our company? A tech company. Which owned several well-known consumer-oriented websites. He may have been an adequate CEO but absolutely no one in my office (a small satellite office 400 miles from headquarters) had any respect at all for him.

    10. CM*

      I see managers more as facilitators than as teachers — though views on that differ. From my POV, good management is about being able to help people solve problems, fix communication issues on the team, handle pushback from other departments, negotiate agreements, etc. It’s almost never about knowing technical answers the way a teacher would.

      At my last job, I was managing a team who did the exact kind of technical work I knew how to do, and it actually created a whole set of problems for me that wouldn’t have been there if I had no idea how to do their jobs. Like, if my team was struggling to do something that I could do really easily, it was tempting to just do it myself instead of figuring out why they were struggling and how we could change it. Or, if they were having trouble solving a problem, it was tempting to just tell them the solution I would use instead of talking through the problem-solving process and helping them get to their own solutions. In other words, because I knew how to do their jobs on a technical level, it was harder for me to draw boundaries around my own role and not be overbearing.

      I think, if you have a manger who sees management as facilitation and has good facilitation skills, it doesn’t matter if they have the technical knowledge — they can talk you through solving your own problems and negotiate new agreements with other managers based on the outcome. But I think the worst situation is if you have a manger who sees themselves as a teacher but doesn’t have any knowledge — because then they keep telling you to do stuff that doesn’t make sense and it feels insulting.

    11. Eccentric Smurf*

      I think it’s possible. I work in a highly technical field. In the last 18 years, I have had two managers with zero understanding of my area of expertise and two with relevant experience. One of the inexperienced managers was good and one wasn’t. The difference between the two was 100% about management style, rather than technical knowledge. Both experienced managers were great because they had relevant knowledge and experience to share in addition to being good at managing people.

  35. Higher ed*

    I’m beyond frustrated with my senior leadership team. They keep expanding (at high salaries to boot), but of course there’s never enough money to pay for more rank-and-file employees. Meanwhile, I’m a middle manager who feels completely frustrated by the unrealistic expectations by trying to manage my own workload and my team’s. More is expected all the time, and yet we can’t expand. Some of these senior-level folks look impressive on paper, but I read the job descriptions and go … now what exactly are you doing, and how much work are you going to push my way?! It doesn’t help that my immediate supervisor is completely inept at advocating for our team.

    Middle management in higher ed = lots of pressure with few resources. Seriously questioning my career path, but I have no clue what else to do, as my skills have become pretty specialized.

    1. Anonymeece*

      As another middle management person in higher ed, I completely sympathize.

      Most higher ed offer tuition reimbursement or scholarships for employees… I was seriously feeling burnt out and sick of it all, so I used those to get my Master’s debt-free and am now actively looking in another field. Your skills may be specialized, but some transfer over. Management experience is a plus nearly everywhere! If you’re interested in another field, it never hurts to ask about reimbursements/scholarships and see about pursuing education in another field.

    2. Always the bridesmaid*

      Maybe your skills are not as specialized as you think. Because you work in this setting everyday, you might be thinking of your skills in terms of your job. It might be worth taking a larger scope view of what you do in order to document how your skills could transfer to another setting.

    3. HigherEd Person*

      OH yes yes yes. I feel all your pain. I, too, am a Higher Ed Middle Manager (even attended the NASPA Mid-Level Managers Institute!). I work in the area that plans/runs alllllll the late night programs, and I’m le tired.

      I know I’ve gotten pretty specialized in my skillset; however, I’ve started taking some time to look at what really interests me, and how I could go about boosting up those transferable skills while in my current job. I love assessment, strategic plan development, and leadership training. I’m using the next year+ to build up those experiences and work my connections to see if that takes me anywhere. I’m also talking to people who’ve gotten out of higher ed to see what their world is like. There is a FB group for Expatriates of Higher Ed where we talk about this a lot.

  36. Moth*

    I’ve recently started mentoring (through my company’s official mentorship program) a mentee who has expressed concerns about not having enough confidence to speak up in meetings or small groups. We work in the sciences, where making sure what you’re saying is correct is important, but the mentee worries that if everything they’re thinking isn’t 100% correct, that they don’t want to risk saying something that might be wrong, so they end up saying nothing at all. This isn’t just when reporting data or something, but also in brainstorming meetings and general discussions. Does anyone have experience with advising someone else with confidence issues? I’m still fairly new to being a mentor in the program and figuring out the best way to give advice without just telling someone what to do.

    Some factors that confound things a bit are that the mentee is from a culture where quietness and passiveness by that gender is encouraged, so I want to be cognizant of that when giving any advice. Additionally, English is not their first language, so I’m sure that makes it more difficult for them as well. But this is something that the mentee voluntarily brought forward that they’d like to work on, so I want to do all I can to help in that area.

    1. AnonEMoose*

      What if your mentee started out by practicing asking a question, where that’s appropriate? That might be a bit less stressful than asserting something, and as a step toward just helping them be comfortable speaking at all, could help.

      Something like Toastmasters could be something to look into, as well. They might not be quite ready for it yet, but it’s something to check out, anyway.

      1. CM*

        This would be my advice, too. Even if the end goal is to be able to make suggestions and statements, start by vocalizing more low-stakes things like questions or saying you agree with someone else’s point or you like someone else’s idea, just to get used to talking and feeling comfortable in the room. Then, move on to making suggestions later, when it feels more natural.

    2. Rezia*

      If your mentee knows the topic of the meeting ahead of time, they could write down a few notes so they have written prompts, which can help with the anxiety. You could also brainstorm with them some generic responses/questions that they could use to chip into the conversation, as appropriate.
      One other thought: you can let them practice with you, if they would find that helpful. You could ask them, What were you thinking of saying at the last (or better yet, upcoming) meeting? Do you want to try it out on me?
      You may also want to remind them that this is an area where practice will make it easier over time, so as painful as it might be at first, the only way to get better at this is to do it.

    3. Diabetty*

      I’ve had a few mentees in similar situations. What has helped the most was when I emphasized that we all make mistakes in our work, it is inevitable and not the end of a career. I tend to frame it like optimization–if you’re right 100% of the time but you only contribute 2 ideas, your overall impact is going to be so much lower than someone who’s right 90% of the time but contributes 20 ideas. Having an accuracy rate of 100% is not always a success when you view it that way: there is an optimal rate of inaccuracy, and it’s nonzero.

      It also sometimes blows their minds to realize how little I knew when I first entered my field. I was guessing, like, 30% of the time! The fact that someone they consider very smart and articulate is willing to say “oh gosh, I knew so little when I started out” tends to inspire confidence that they can be perceived the same way over time.

      I also gained confidence when I was a young researcher because my boss always asked me what I thought, so I had to develop lots of opinions and become comfortable sharing them out loud. It was clear to me that she valued my input and it increased my confidence. (My boss was also my mentor! Perhaps you’re well situated to do the same.)

    4. Blunt Bunny*

      I think what’s best to understand is that in STEM industries lots of people would have done different degrees and different modules so will have different knowledge. Engineers will have different experience and knowledge to scientists even if they worked in the same field at the same time and are at equivalent levels it would be difficult to be an expert in everything your company could possibly do. That’s why people specialise and have interdisciplinary teams.
      I also have found that people appreciate questions even to point out an abbreviation that you weren’t quite sure about it shows that you are engaging and trying to understand the concepts. Asking questions shows that you are interested and in science looking at things from a different perspective is usually a useful thing.

  37. Birch*

    Just a discussion point: we hear a lot about the power of saying ‘no’ to things to prioritize our own work, more important work, or to avoid burnout. But it seems to mostly be in the context of being asked to do extra work for someone else or to do things that aren’t actually as important to you or don’t benefit you in order to focus on things that do. But how (and why) do you say no to things that are actually great opportunities? It’s a good situation to have too many good opportunities in your lap, but is it then just a matter of choosing the best ones? What if you can’t know which will be the most lucrative in the end? How do you decide how much time and energy you can put into them, and does it change your time/energy calculation if it’s deciding whether to say no to good opportunities, i.e. are you more willing to take on more work for the promise of more results, and where do you draw the line?

    1. Kendra*

      For deciding about time and energy, I think it’s better to take fewer good opportunities and actually have the bandwith to put a lot into them rather than trying to do too many things and finding yourself letting little pieces of all of them fall by the wayside.

      1. Birch*

        This is a really good point. I think a lot of the time people (myself, definitely) don’t see time and energy as limited resources. There’s such a temptation to just find extra energy somewhere to put toward something that seems valuable, instead of letting go of something else.

    2. fposte*

      First off, you have to accept that you will never know for sure what the best things to say yes to or no to are in advance. So yeah, pretty much it’s choosing what look like the best ones.

      There’s a curve where you do more stuff for exposure and networking early on but as your stature grows you’re already exposed enough, so you need more reason to say yes than mere exposure. So questions to ask might be “What does this do for my career trajectory?”, “Where does this rank on ways to spend my time?”, and “What opportunities would I most like to have and what am I doing to work toward those?”

      It can get a lot more complicated than that, but overall, “No” is as important a word as “Yes.” However, I’d encourage you to think about that last question of what you’re working toward in your career, as that provides an axis that you can map such opportunities onto, and it’s also just a good question in general.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Everything you say yes to means you’re saying no to something else. Maybe it’s just saying no to sitting around on the couch being bored. But maybe it’s saying no to much needed down time, or to time/energy spent pursuing more important professional goals. You’ve got to always consider what you’ll be saying no to when you say yes to something.

    4. Excel Wizard*

      Interesting questions.

      IMO it is always good to have great opportunities, even if you have so many you have to turn some of them down. If you cannot tell which opportunities will pan out the best for you in the long run, then I think simply going with the one that sounds the most “fun” to you. What new situation sounds like the one you would enjoy the most, gets you the most excited? Focusing on that would help narrow down the opportunities, and when you are enjoying the work I find it is much easier to really dive into it and produce better results, which would create even more beneficial opportunities for you in the long run as your work will be higher quality work.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I chose the opportunities where I think I will succeed. I had a boss say that I would not be successful on a project. That did not matter, I knew I would be successful. And I was. So that gut feeling of knowing I can successfully do a project is one thing I consider.

      A second thing is deciding to leverage my choice as best I can. I think we have to deliberately chose to let our choices work out as winners. This means not only choosing to do our utmost to excel but it also means keeping our eyes open for adjacent opportunities as we go along. For example, let’s say I pick Project B to to. The drawback to B is that it’s not big and shiny like Project A. So I start looking around. Perhaps I can streamline processes, perhaps I can make new contacts, perhaps I can enhance B in some manner that no one has done yet. If this feels a little bit “look at me”, yeah it is. But remember it’s to the company’s benefit that we knock ourselves out. The company is making out well here.

      My boundaries are:
      1)Mental or physical exhaustion. I should stop before I hit the exhaustion point.
      2)Keep it ethical and keep it legal.
      3)The reputation/past actions of the person making the promise. A known promise breaker has a project, I am less interested because I see the writing on the wall.
      4)Some things are just dear to my heart. If asked to save puppies or baby alligators, and I can only pick one, I will save puppies. If we can’t do things at work that fill our hearts/souls there just isn’t any point to it for me.
      5) I can be conned into doing Nasty Task but I do expect something in return. For example, I will spend weeks cleaning up Slacker’s mess but later I expect to see Nice Project or similar in the very near future.

      Don’t ask what I would do if I had to save puppies 20 hours a day for a promise breaker. In the end, the puppies will get saved.

  38. Bunny Girl*

    I just need to rant for a second. We do little events for our department. They take a few weeks to put together, and Wednesday, I got an email that we have one next Friday. As if that wasn’t frustrating enough, it only contained some of the information I needed. So I scrolled down through the forwarded email to get more details, and it turns out that the organizer had known about this event since Mid-October! He’s just been sitting on it for months! He had everything worked out and confirmed in the first email and chose to wait this long to let me know. It’s so frustrating because this is just the theme of my department. I’ve never worked with a group of people that was so opposed to doing their job. It’s mind boggling. I’ve thought about quitting quite a few times but I’m a student and this job not only pays well, but there’s a lot of downtime and I’m able to get so much of my schoolwork done (with my boss’s permission), so I’m pretty much stuck here until I graduate. It’s just such a daily thing for people around here to not do what they’re supposed to. I can’t understand why these types of people keep employment.

    1. valentine*

      Do only what you can do by deadline and if it sucks, they got what they planned for. Can you get your supervisor on board with setting and enforcing deadlines? Spell out how far ahead you need to know the number of attendees and need for catering, balloons, and a bouncy castle. Give yourself a secret two-week buffer.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yeah unfortunately, my manager knows how useless most of my department is but nothing can be done about it (tenure).

  39. Totally Minnie*

    I’m looking for some work wardrobe recommendations. Specifically, women’s shoes.

    My office is business casual, and I’m looking for shoes that 1) offer some support, 2) can be worn with socks (because my feet are always cold and those no-show socks they make for women’s dress shoes provide nothing in the way of warmth), and 3) that are preferably not Dansko clogs or similar looking items.

    I’m finding that I really don’t like the look of most supportive shoes I find, and I’m hoping that the other posters here know about brands I haven’t seen yet.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      My go-to winter shoes are:
      1. A Clarks Mary Jane style that I’ve had for a few years.
      2. A loafer style that has about a 1″ wedge
      3. Ankle boots with about a 1″ heel

      I can’t wear heels and don’t like cold feet, either. I wear socks with all these, and they’re all black. I have another pair of Clarks that are more of a slip on shoe that covers your whole foot, and the upper is kind of a tight woven straps. These do not look good with any of my pants. I also have a pair of wingtips with a safety type sole, and I trip over my own feet whenever I wear them, so nope.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Clarks Mary Jane styles have been my go-to shoe for a couple of years now. I do sometimes have to put a Dr. Scholl’s sticky heel pad in the back to keep my narrow heels from slipping out of the shoe, but they’re a great shoe for wearing with socks. (I hand-knit socks, and like to be able to show them off.)

        On my most recent purchase, I broke down and bought a pair in brown to go with my usual black.

      2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Clarks work for me so I don’t stray too far. Big wide feet for the win!

        I do a lot of the booties w/1 -2 inch heel, preferably with a tiny bit of detail or bling. I wear them every day at work.

        Then, plantar fasciitis insoles, the hard ones but under $15. Dr. Scholl’s works.

        And all of the fancy compression socks I can get my hands on.

    2. straws*

      My favorite brands so far are Comfortiva and Vionic, but I’ll definitely be following along to learn about more.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Seconding Vionic and adding A2 by Aerosoles. Other fave brands:
        Rockport
        Sofft

        I also suggest getting the Dr Scholls inserts for heel pain and/or plantar fasciitis. They are dark blue and about half the length of your shoe and can really help take a shoe you like for aesthetic purposes but that maybe aren’t the most supportive to a very great shoe. They are about $10-$12/pair so worth a try.

      2. Live & Learn*

        +1 for Vionic. My go to at my business casual office is black leather Vionic ankle boots. So comfortable, supportive and fashionable, I think they were ~$100 but I’ve worn them daily for 2 years and they practically look new!

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I got some nice looking supportive shoes from Clarks. I’ve been wearing them with some of my longer dress pants so my socks don’t show as much.

    4. coffee addict*

      If you’re willing to pay $120-$160, check out SAS (San Antonio Shoemakers). I know a few people who have fairly bad back/knee issues and they both swear by them in terms of comfort and support! I wouldn’t say that the shoes are incredibly stylish, but they do have a number of classic-looking loafers, boat shoes, and boots.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      They can be pricey unless you get them on sale, but I have had luck with Cole Haan’s oxford-style shoes. I like socks that are no-show but not those flimsy pantyhose liner weight kinds. Converse is my go-to brand for low-profile socks, but I also like Bombas (again, pricey if not on sale).

    6. Roly Poly Little Bat-Faced Girl*

      A good resource is the Barking Dogs Shoes website. A great resource for “problem” feet and I’ve discovered some good shoes through there

    7. Elizabeth*

      I reallly like my 2 pairs of “Earthies” brand booties. They have about a 1” tall heel (a thick/stable/stacked heel), and they come in wide sizes (yay!). They are comfortable and cute – I get compliments on them a lot.

    8. cat socks*

      I just bought several pairs of black ankle boots and am trying them out at home. So far Rockport and Aerosoles have been the most comfortable. I also like Dr. Scholls. I’ve heard good things about Ecco too. If you’re able to order from Zappos, they offer fast shipping and free returns. I find with shoes, I have to order several pairs, try them out and send them back. Some of the reviews describe whether or not you’re able to add your own insole.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I really like Born boots. I’ve had several pairs and they are very long-wearing and well-made. They’re pricy, but will definitely last. I treat my boots like crapola and still get 4-5 years of wear out of them, with wearing frequency of 3-4 days a week.

    9. Joielle*

      Sorel wedges! I have the Joan of Arctic wedge chelsea boot in two colors and they are the best. Super comfortable and warm, and fairly waterproof too.

    10. only acting normal*

      How about something like the Clarks Netley range? (link in username)
      I just got the black Netley Freya boots in the sale – they are structured (so supportive) but also have a cushioned insole (so comfy).

    12. Annie Moose*

      Don’t have specific brand recommendations, but you could try looking for flat/low booties. I bought some heeled ones specifically because I was tired of my feet being cold in the winter! If I’m wearing a skirt without tights, I’ll wear short socks in them (they aren’t visible but are much warmer and comfortable than “no-show” socks), or they look fab with a skirt and tights, or with long enough dress pants it doesn’t really matter what socks you wear because the pants cover the top of the booties anyway. (I wore knee-high Wonder Woman socks yesterday, for an example! But they were totally unseeable because of how long my dress pants were.)

    13. Can't Sit Still*

      In addition to Vionic, I like ABEO, the Walking Company’s house brand, which come with your choice of basic orthotics, depending on what kind of support you need. The Walking Company’s website has a much better selection than their stores, IMO.

      1. Greymalk*

        +1. I stand a lot (nine hours of teaching a day) and Abeo shoes have helped me a lot, but I also love their insoles that can be added to other shoes and make a big difference in comfort and support!

    14. Neosmom*

      I love wearing “compression socks” . They are much sturdier than knee-high nylons, and provide support. But the flesh-tone colors look great with my flats and pants. I found them on Amazon and I wash them with my delicates and dry them on a clothes line.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        Second to the compression socks! They’re great if you’re on your feet all day/you know you have a crazy day ahead. I wear them a lot when traveling as well and my teacher husband wears them several times a week. We like the Physix Gear brand on Amazon.

    15. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oddly enough, the most comfortable and supportive shoes I’ve found have been Crocs. And they do have business casual styles.

    16. Parenthetically*

      Klogs brand are extremely comfortable, as are Keens. I wore my Keens TO. DEATH across three continents and as many years, and I have wide feet and weak arch/flat foot/overpronation issues.

    17. Not All*

      My office has the HVAC vents in the floor rather than ceiling (STUPID STUPID design on soooooooo many fronts) so not only do I need socks all year round (summer is actually WORSE), I wear SmartWool socks!

      I’m another fan of Clarks…they have quite few loafers I like. I find I have good luck buying business-casual shoes that can be worn with thick wool socks places like REI, Cabelas, Scheels, Canfields, etc.

      I’ve been really really wanting to try some of the Socofy shoes (link in name)…they have some that look like they would work as a balance of my personal preference for quirky with a pretty conservative office. I can’t find any brick-and-mortar stores to try them on though & I’m really hesitant to just order online.

    18. Purple Jello*

      When I started having foot problems, I got Danskos, and Naots. I also put arch supports in my cheaper shoes.

      1. Quandong*

        Seconding the love for NAOT shoes – they last for ages and have always been great for my wide feet.

    19. TheOperaGhost*

      When people ask about comfortable and supportive but appropriate for business casual shoes, I always recommend checking out the selections at the big name hunting/fishing/camping supply stores ala Cabelas or Bass Pro Shop. They have really expanded their apparel and shoe collections, but at the same time place an emphasis on comfort and support.

    20. SarahKay*

      Hotter Shoes (www dot hotter dot com). They’re a UK company, but will ship worldwide and I love their shoes, in particular the Shake shoes. I’m on something like my tenth pair of Shakes because I love them so much. And in case you’re thinking that 10 pairs means they don’t sound very sturdy, I should clarify – that’s ten pairs in four different colours, over a period of about 5 years, and I walk approx five miles every day.
      I also have boots and smart shoes from Hotter – basically 90% of my shoe-wearing is in Hotter shoes – and they do normal, wide and extra-wide fittings.

    22. Clever Name*

      I have similar shoe requirements. Especially socks in winter. It’s taken years, but here is my current winter shoe repertoire:

      Tall black waterproof boots made by Teva (Love these. They are lightly insulated and super comfy)
      Ankle length Teva boots with a 1 inch wedge heel (also lightly insulated)
      Ankle length booties by some brand Nordstrom carries (not insulated and I wear a half insert in them for arch support)
      Mid-calf boots by Sorel (also lightly insulated, and I wear a cork half insert for arch support)

      Yes, that’s a lot of boots. I live in the Denver area, and it can be cold and snowy from Nov-May (and it can also be 60 in January), so I wear these shoes a lot.

      For the inserts with arch support, sometimes this means I buy a half size up. For the most part, I’ve given up on buying brands known to be “supportive” and wear flats with inserts or replace the insoles. I just cant bear the styling of even the “cute” ones. I want trendy shoes, dammit! :)

      1. Clever Name*

        Oh, and all of these are leather. I find that leather shoes are more supportive and comfortable.

    24. MissDisplaced*

      I hate clogs too. Just not a fan.
      My go-tos in winter are:
      -Ankle boots (flat or low wedge)
      -Loafer type shoes (socks or no socks)
      -Oxfords
      -Tall boots (flat or low wedge)
      -Platform Creepers ! (I’m a 50 year old punk bringing it back!) They’re actually really comfy and work appropriate.
      -I’m really into anything suede or nubuck lately.
      -If you really get cold feet, look for boots with fur or flannel linings, or buy wool or sheepskin insoles

      My favorite brands are Rockport, Clarks, Aerosoles, Earthies, Sam Edelman, Tuk (the Creepers), Aldo, Naturalizer, Cloudsteppers, and sometimes Zara.

    25. HBucket*

      Dansko also does some very nice looking shoes… they aren’t all clogs! But Clark’s are great too, as a bunch of others have said. As far as no-show socks, I found some from HUE that I really like. A little warmer, and they stay on better.

    26. Extra vitamins*

      Merrell. I wear their “Mocs” in a couple of colors. They are comfortable and warm. They also make some more traditional work shoes, but I haven’t tried those. I also have a pair of Salomon running shoes in mostly black that I can get away with. These only work with pants. I also like Taos and Earth.

    27. Chaordic One*

      I think that everyone else has made very good shoe recommendations.

      The only thing I’d like to add is that you might consider putting a pair of thermal insoles in whatever shoes you wear. They were a lifesaver during the winter I worked in an office where the floor was indoor/outdoor carpeting over a concrete slab.

  40. media monkey*

    This afternoon’s job is to put together evidence to fire a member of my team. we are in the UK so it requires quite a bit of process and documentation, so i am pulling everything together for my boss to take to HR to ensure we handle it all legally. he has been here nearly a year and to be honest he has never been a great employee. we would have done this sooner but he had a major and unexpected bereavement back in Oct, and it seemed awful to do it then.

    i’ve been a manager for years and never met anyone quite like this guy (also never had to sack someone). it is quite a highly demanded industry and he is entry level so should be enthusiastic and keen to learn – everyone else is, and people with only a few months experience are outperforming him at this point.

    any tips (not legal, but how to behave, things to say or not to say, how to not hate myself for firing someone who has just lost a close family member?)

    1. Wonderer*

      I would just note that the performance issues date back to before the bereavement, so you’re not punishing them for anything that is a result of that.

      1. valentine*

        If the bereavement was expected, is it possible that affected his work and that it’s all still affecting him? Has anyone bluntly discussed his performance with him?

        1. media monkey*

          sorry for the late reply! it wasn’t expected. we discussed his performance before this happened and have been taking it easy on him since then but we need to do something about it at this point.

      2. media monkey*

        that’s a really good point – it is the case so i will make sure it is clear. we had previously (pre-bereavement) spoken to him about the same issues to no real effect.

    2. irene adler*

      Be direct and factual regarding the reason for the termination. Don’t go into long explanations. These explanations should be things that were discussed at prior meetings hence, known by the employee.

      After you ‘drop the bomb’, what’s the plan for how to remove him from the facility? Will you ask for his keys, ID or other company property? Do you send him to HR? Alert security to escort him there? Will you walk him to his desk, hand him a box and watch him pack his things? When finished, do you escort him to the front door? He’s not going to know what to do after you inform him of his termination. So you have to have the plan all ready for what is done after this news is delivered.
      And be ready for the unexpected. He may get very angry. Or not budge from his chair. Then what do you do? So have someone close by to call on to help if he’s not cooperative with leaving the facility.

      1. media monkey*

        i think HR will be present in the meeting so we will need to know from them how they normally handle this sort of thing. but good point about what to do with his stuff. we don’t have a lot of storage space each, so most of our stuff is in a locker with a combination lock, so we can pack his stuff for him if he gives us the code. really good thoughts tho – thank you!

    3. Rezia*

      Don’t bury the news – if he’s a normal person, having minutes of lead up will be much worse.
      I’m hoping you or some other supervisor has had ongoing conversations with him about his performance both before and after October, so this shouldn’t be a total surprise. You should be able to reference past conversations and note that he hasn’t responded to whatever feedback he was previously given.

      Re: how not to hate yourself — if he’s not thriving in this position, he also probably isn’t having a great time at work. This may not be the right career for him. Your responsibility isn’t just to make your employees happy, but also to your company, and part of your job as a manager is making sure your staff are up to par. So remember that you are also doing your job in this situation. You can feel sympathy and sadness for the guy, but don’t hate yourself.

      1. media monkey*

        we have had conversations before october, but not much since then due to the bereavement and the holidays (although the specific issues and things that he has messed up on since october he knows about – part of the issue is that he appears totally unconcerned about these, and most impact on the rest of the team and at least one has directly cost the company money).

    4. Kathenus*

      One thing we talk about a lot at our organization in our management/leadership training courses is to separate the person and their fit for/performance in the job. They should know by now, via coaching and constructive communication, that they are not fulfilling all the needs of the job. This is not about them as a person, it is simply that they are not proving to be a fit for the needs of this job. Treat them with respect, don’t try to demonize the person to help justify the decision. Stick to the fact that they haven’t been or aren’t able to perform the functions of the job at the needed level, and that therefore you need to let them go, but that you wish them the best and know that they will find a position that better suits their skills.

      1. media monkey*

        that is a good positive advice – thank you! to be honest, he told my boss (so 3 levels above him, but it is a fairly informal structure) that he didn’t like the job and wanted to work in a different area and my boss told him to let him know what he wanted to go going forward (as the things he wants to do are not possible in the company at all, so there is no chance of a lateral move – and to be honest i wouldn’t risk appearing to recommend him to another team, knowing what i know!), he has never come back to him. we expected him to find something else quite quickly and move on, but that doesn’t appear to have happened!

    5. Mickey Q*

      I say “Karl we’ve decided to let you go.” When they ask why and say they’ve been a perfect employee, have a brief example: “You are consistently tardy and have been warned about it 3 times.”

      When they ask for a second chance say “The decision has already been made.” If they get weird say “This is not the time or place to argue about it.” Or “It’s time for you to leave.” Have someone else there as a witness and stand in front of a camera if possible.

      1. media monkey*

        umm, i think it will be more conversational than that and in a meeting room, so not in front of a camera! we are in the uk so we won’t just chuck him out.

  41. Seafood Aesthetic*

    This post is beautifully timed, as I’m currently a seafood department manager and starting my job hunt today. It’s my goal to be out of my store before the next physical inventory, which is ambitious (end of February) but I won’t let it stop me if I miss that date. <3

  42. Deryn*

    This week I made a very embarrassing (albeit entertaining) mistake… I was shipping some medical equipment to a patient in one of our clinical trials who shares a last name with a famous singer-songwriter, and their first names are vaguely similar. I’m sure you see where this is going, but I accidentally wrote the celebrity’s name as the recipient – think something along the lines of Tori Amos instead of Tina Amos. I didn’t realize until I was driving home that night and one of her songs came on the radio and I had a horrifying moment of clarity. Fortunately, I know the family fairly well and was able to text them (from my work phone, which is how we normally contact participants in our clinic) and say essentially, “Heads up, your package is coming but I made a very embarrassing mistake on the label.”

    The mom texted right back, “That’s alright! [crying laughing emoji] I don’t mind being confused for music royalty!”

    Phew!

    4. bonkerballs*

      As someone with a vaguely similar name with a celebrity, just know that that kind of thing actually happens a fair bit. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is not the first time they’ve seen that mix up happen. It’s happened to me several times, and I always chuckle.

      1. Deryn*

        I’m glad I’m not alone! I have a really unusual name myself, so when I realized what I did I tried to think like, “Okay, I’m usually not angry if someone mixes MY NAME up, it’s probably fine.” But I did allow myself a tiny moment to panic before I came to my senses.

        Part of it is that it’s a celebrity who had the height of their popularity a bit before “my time”, so it’s a name I know and music I recognize when I hear it, but I couldn’t list off their songs if you asked me to or probably even name the artist while the song was playing. The other part is that it’s a somewhat uncommon last name, so this family are the only ones I know in real life with that name, and I normally address the mother as “Ms.” So when I went to fill out the form, I think my brain just auto-filled it, like, “What’s the first name we most commonly hear with this last name?” and I had no real reason to dispute it because it’s an artist who, while quite famous, isn’t on my radar a lot. If it was, say, Taylor Swift, I’d obviously think, “Well that can’t be right, you must be mis-remembering.”

  43. ArtK*

    A bit of a job search rant; p;lease bear with me. I’ve begun upping my game since I really want to get away from where I am. So far, I’ve run into thse:
    1. A phone interview that has some promise just before the new year. Interviewer said “I’ll consult and we’ll get back to you.” Of course, nothing since then. This is someone who sells expensive training to enterpreneurs. You’d think that basic business etiquette — “getting back” to someone when you’ve said you would — would be part of that training.
    2. A recruiter who spammed me on LinkedIn with a job that was quite junior and with a low hourly rate. I responded, politely, giving my minimum and pointing out the disparity in senority. A week later, I got spam from the same person, with the same job with a rate very slightly higher than before.
    3. Another recruiter approached me on LinkedIn. Again with a somewhat junior position (although described as “senior.”) He said in the first message that he also had manager/director positions. I said that I would be interested in talking to him about those. He asked for my resume. I sent it almost immediately, with no acknowledgement. After a couple of days I messaged saying “just wanted to make sure you got the resume.” Nothing.
    4. LinkedIn giving a list of “jobs you may be interested in,” but following one promising link gets the message “this position is no longer accepting applications.” Then why the blazes did they suggest it in the first place. The seem to have removed the ability to delete suggestions from the “people you may know” pages, so I’m getting more and more sugggestions “based on your profile” that have nothing to do with me.
    Anybody know of good tech recruiters or job sites that work with senior engineers/managers? I don’t recall this level of flakiness when I did my first couple of big searches, but those were decades ago.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      First, I can commiserate. I’m not looking, but I get a lot of recruiters who contact me for construction positions because of my company, even though I have made my LI profile scream “Engineering’ to avoid that.

      What field/discipline are you looking at specifically? I work in power engineering and construction, and we use Aerotek and then different regional recruiters for some specialized one-off roles. I’ve been contacted by some people at Ciresi and Morek who seemed like decent folks, but they offered roles that weren’t a fit. The Paris Group has contacted me, and they seemed a little not-decent.

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah, please clarify what engineering discipline we are talking about here.

        Also, might look into seeking advice from your local professional organization re: good recruiter organizations, specific folks to seek out and connect with on LI, some ‘coaching’ about what to expect in your local job market.
        I know there are some independent recruiters who field requests for employees with higher up titles (VP, Director, Senior manager, etc.). Need to ask at your professional organization.
        (I’m linked to one I know in San Diego. She’s REALLY good)

        Also, are there any Meetup.com local job hunt groups -either discipline -specific or general ? They can offer tips on finding good job leads and avoid the ‘fluff’.

      2. ArtK*

        Sorry, I should have specified. Software; pretty much anything that can fall under that umbrella. I’ve done work in business applications, database and operating systems internals, embedded systems. If it’s Turing Complete, I can make it do tricks.

        On the management side, almost any kind of engineering (realizing that my emphasis has been in software.) As long as you don’t expect me to design a circuit board or a mechanism (although I’ve done both), I can work well with most disciplines within engineering.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          Ah, software is too far out of my circle of knowledge to have anything helpful to say about recruiting. My company does have a software subsidiary, though, and that makes me think that if you haven’t already, you should let any family and friends who are “safe” to tell that you are looking. You don’t know their hidden connections. I have some connections to the software subsidiary and could pass on your name and information if we knew each other.

          1. ArtK*

            Thanks. I’ve been working my networks for the last year or so. I don’t know if there’s something specifically wrong with my resume/profile but all of the referrals I’ve had have gone nowhere.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        I worked with an Aerotek recruiter for a senior level tech-related job search – he connected to me on LI a while before when I wasn’t looking and I PM’d him to get started. He was really good and responsive compared to recruiters that contacted me for a specific role. It sounds like the recruiters have different areas they specialize in, including software and tech-adjacent fields like mine. They fill positions but also quasi-headhunt based on what they know about companies they work with. I got something via other means before he could place me but I was really optimistic about his chances of finding something. They’re up and down the West Coast, I think.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I’ve been working with Aerotek for a position in Downtown Boston; they’re very good at getting back to you, compared to recruiters/companies who think ghosting and giving radio silence is a norm.

      A few examples of bad recruiters I have known:

      1. One company was going to send me on a long-term assignment. I had appointments that week, and I asked them specific questions, even offering to delay coming in until after New Years. Nada. (At least this company was good enough to notify me that I wasn’t going forward on another position after I asked them.)

      2. Another company wanted to send me to the far end of Greater Boston, which is not accessible by public transit and involves a $14 cab ride. The recruiter seemed to be OK with calling me every step of the way, but once I told them the commute wasn’t going work out, I never heard a peep from them again.

      3. Yet another company was going to send me to an interview, and I asked them who I was going to meet. I was dressed and ready to head out the door when they told me “oh, they’re not scheduling interviews this week.” Let’s just say Glassdoor got a pretty honest review warning people about their gaslighting.

  44. Peaches*

    How do you deal with a coworker who is unbelievably loud on the phone? Her cube is next to mine, and she is a salesperson, so she makes calls all day long. I use headphones to listen to music, but it doesn’t help much. I’ve had my headphones turned all the way up at times, and I can still hear her conversations loud as day (which goes to show how insanely loud she is). Sometimes it physically jars me in my chair, her voice gets so loud. Another coworker of mine who sat on the other side of her cube ended up moving into a spare office when an employee left, because she could no longer deal with the noise. Unfortunately, there are no additional free desks/offices.

    Here’s the thing – I think she KNOWS she’s loud on the phone. She jokes about it (after hanging up, she’ll say something like, “oh man, sorry guys, that was a long call!) She’s made other comments about how it’s probably hard for us inside staff to focus when “all of us sales reps are making calls in here.” (We have six sales reps who are in and out of the office all day long, but she spends by far the most time in the office, and is the only one who is loud enough to be disruptive.)

    I also know that our former boss, who left about a year ago mentioned to her multiple times that she needed to work from home if she didn’t start having phone calls at a normal volume (she lives 5 minutes from the office and has full capability to work there). His words apparently didn’t bother her, and now he’s gone.

    I’m truly at a loss. I dread hearing her footsteps walking through the door in the morning because I know I won’t be able to fully focus for the next 3, 4, or however many hours she decides to stay in the office.

    1. ArtK*

      I’d start with your current boss. Make it all about your loss of productivity. “Boss, the TPS report was late yesterday because Mabel was yelling into her phone again. How can we improve the situation?”

      2. Chocolate Teapot*

        Sounds like Fishwife, the noisy employee who sits in the department next to mine, except that she also yells at people who come to her desk in person.

        Fishwife has also complained about my team being too noisy.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Have you actually spoken with her about this? If not, start there.

      If you have and there’s been no change, go to her boss.

    4. Koala dreams*

      I agree with other commenters that the first step is asking her to speak less loud. If your phones have a way to set the volume, maybe show her how to get it higher. I find that many people who scream into the phone do it because they don’t hear the other side well. Then speak to your boss about the screaming making your own work suffer. In the meantime, you can try sound-silencing earphones from a hardware store, or those foam thingies from the pharmacy. If there are a lot of phone calls in your office, maybe your company can buy them for all the people who don’t need to use phones?

  45. Nay*

    I just wanted to share with everyone that I’m super excited this morning because the guy who was sexually harassing my sister and some of her (female) employees was finally FIRED yesterday!

    Her boss and grand-boss were in full support of firing this guy from the initial complaint, but his immediate supervisor was pulling the we’re short staffed card (wtaf?) so mys sister kept documenting everything he did, examples:

    -Frequently telling her and the female employees how beautiful they were despite being asked to stop.
    -Responding to benign comments like “I’m tired” with “Out until 4am against last night huh?” or “Don’t sleep as well when you’re not in your own bed?” ON A DAILY BASIS and making other general ‘you out drinking and slutting around last night’ comments.
    -When my sister would actually say “hey, that’s inappropriate, knock it off” HE’D MEOW AND HISS AT HER
    -Referring to grandboss as a “whore”

    So, even though it took them about 2 months longer than it should have to fire the guy, I just wanted to share that there is (some) justice in the world, and if you have a toxic person like this a-hole, KEEP REPORTING IT and good luck!

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      YAAAAY, so glad for your sister and the other women in that workplace! WTF at the supervisor, I don’t know that I’d ever trust that particular person’s judgment ever again :/

    2. Darren*

      Short staffed can be a reason not to fire someone in some cases, sexual harassment is definitely not one of those case.

      It’s only really an reason to keep on someone where there is some positive to keeping them around and no significant drawbacks, any drawbacks and you are better off getting rid of them quickly since most of those drawbacks will be things resulting in the possibility of losing other staff.

  46. The Other Dawn*

    Another question for today. I found two positions at the same company. And then when I started my cover letter, a third was posted. All three of them interest me. I’ll admit that two interest me more, and both seem like they might be at a lower pay scale due to level of responsibility. One is five years of experience and the other is seven. The third position seems like a big stretch for me, possibly high level and more pay based on the description, some travel (that’s fine), and maybe not quite as interesting as the other two. But I do think I’d be happy with any one of them, as long as it’s not a huge pay cut–can’t afford that this year.

    Anyway, how do I address this? Can I apply for the higher position and mention in the cover letter that if I’m not quite the right fit, that I’d be interested in hearing about other open positions? Do I name the other two or just say “other open positions”? I don’t want to seem like I’m desperate and will take anything, nor do I want to seem like I don’t know what I want. But I also don’t want to just be rejected without consideration for something else with the company. And I truly am interested in all three.

    1. Audrey Puffins*

      It could be worth calling the company and asking if the hiring manager has a few minutes to talk it through with you. They’ll be able to say for certain if they’d like you to apply for the three to cover your bases, or apply for just the one and let them decide if you’d be better for a different one, and whatever happens they ask for, the call should reassure them you’re genuinely serious about all three roles and not just hurling applications at the wall to see what sticks.

      1. fposte*

        I would recommend against calling–it’s really disruptive. You could email, but honestly I would just apply to all three, assuming your background makes it clear that they’re each good fits. They might not even have the same hiring manager anyway.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Yes, it’s a really large company and I wouldn’t have a clue as to how to even get to someone there to ask. I used to have contacts there years ago, but they’ve all moved on and I don’t have a way to reach those people anymore.

          The reason I hesitate to actually apply to all three is that I searched the archives here and Alison has a post about this. It says that it could come across as naive about what I’m suited for or that I’m unfocused, though it can still be done very carefully. I guess I’d rather not take that chance when job searching is already so anxiety-inducing.

          1. fposte*

            Yes, it *can* come across as naïve–but it doesn’t automatically. I don’t know if it does in your case or not (and I probably wouldn’t know enough about the positions to guess if you told me). If the jobs are really facially similar, it’s a lot less likely–if they’re senior accountant, teapot accountant, and llama accountant III and the latter two don’t require specialized accounting knowledge, then I think applying to all three is fine. If it’s accounting assistant, director of accounting, and dolphin feeder, then it looks like you’re applying to everything. You’ll have to judge whether the similarity is enough to make applying to three reasonable and if you’d rather focus on just one. If you do focus on just one I wouldn’t mention the others in the cover letter but might bring them up in an interview.

  47. What now? Answered*

    I wrote in a few weeks ago about my frustration with my recent job search (having been down to the final 2 at 3 companies without an offer). My program had closed due to a funding change and I was looking to change gears.

    Well, I’m feeling a lot better. I was offered director position in another program at my current job. Got a small raise, a great boss and better hours.

    I decided that a new direction may not be what I need at the moment. I’ve had 2 kids (one with major health issues), moved to a new city and opened/closed a program all in the past 2.5 years. This may not be what I do forever, but it’s good for me and my family right now. I think I am ready to slow down a bit! Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

  48. CarolinaChickadee*

    I realize this is a minor, petty issue but it’s really bugging me! My work recently got new uniforms, and the logo is on the wrong side of the chest. When I wear my nametag, should I put it on the correct side (underneath the logo) or on the opposite (wrong) side of my chest?

    1. Peaches*

      Sorry of this is a silly question, but what makes the side that the logo is on “wrong”? Either way, I would put your nametag on the opposite side of the logo.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Logos go on the left. If you have an embroidered name, it’s supposed to go on the right. I think it goes back to military roots, but I’m not sure.

          1. Blue Eagle*

            Nametags traditionally go on the right side. The reason is that when you shake hands with the other person (i.e. two right hands shaking), the right side of your body is closest to the other person, who can more easily see your nametag. {At least that is the reason that I was told about why nametags are on the right side}

    2. Anon because this is slightly identifying*

      I had no idea there was a right/wrong side, and I suspect most people won’t know or care either, so I’d put your nametag on the opposite side.

    3. ArtK*

      The right/wrong side is based on the predominance of right handedness. The name tag is supposed to go on the right because you shake hands with your right hand, putting the name tag closer to the other person. As far as I’m concerned, my eyes work just fine so I don’t really care.

      1. Wonderer*

        I thought it was more because it’s awkward for a right-handed person to pin a name tag on the right than it is on the left.

  49. straws*

    What are some good, relatively quick tests to evaluate an administrative assistant during the interview process? Our previous hires never seem to have the necessary combination of MS Office skills and self-driven organization that we need. We’re small, so I don’t have financial resources to drop on the prebuilt tests online, but I’d like to have something this next go around. For example, with customer service hires we’ll have them try out our software as part of the in person interview. This lets us see that they can successfully navigate a computer and also lets them view what they’ll be supporting.

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      I had an interview for an admin role where they had an excel workbook with a couple different tasks on different pages. The first page had directions to bold and center some text and change the cell borders, the second page asked me to find the sum of expenses and use a formula to convert currency (conversion rate was provided, I just had to set up the =(amount*conversion rate) formula), and the third asked me to generate an if-then formula to determine whether bonuses were due to staff based on sales targets.

      They gave me 20 minutes to get as much done as possible, and I think it gave them a good sense of my excel skills!

    2. LilySparrow*

      Give them a short randomized list of names and addresses, the text of a letter and the filename of your letterhead template.

      Tell them how your file-naming protocol works (not the actual filename you want) and where to save the files. Have them type up a form letter and data file, and run a mail merge of letters and labels or envelopes, in alphabetical order.

      If they can do that accurately in a reasonable timeframe, they understand how to follow instructions, can do some basic deductive reasoning, have decent admin-related skills, and are pretty well-versed in MS Office.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Identify which MS Office apps the admin will use the most (daily, weekly) and create exercises for those. Also, the release can also be pertinent. Someone who uses Word 2003 (yes, it’s still out there, albeit unsupported) is not going to be able to handle the Style Codes of later releases (2007 going forward).

    4. Elaine*

      You mentioned needing someone with self-driven organization. In addition to the simple Excel and Word tests others have mentioned, you might ask them how they would find out how to perform a task if they don’t already know. Or maybe actually have them do it, if the task is simple enough and you have sufficient time.

  50. What's with Today, today?*

    The first week of the new promotion has been great! I’m also exhausted. Getting used to the new routine and role has me tired but satisfied. It’s been a good week and I can’t wait for that new check.

  51. What's with Today, today?*

    Really don’t want to get into political debates, so delete Alison, if not allowed. But how are those affected by the shutdown doing? I know today was pay day…

    1. Overeducated*

      We have two incomes and a good emergency fund, so I can weather a couple missed paychecks. But I’m pissed about having my totally nonpartisan job held hostage, so I went to a protest organized by federal employee unions yesterday. Hope others here are doing ok.

      Today, I’ve KonMari’d 2 years of preschool worksheets and projects with the kid, baked a weirdly misshapen loaf of Irish brown bread, and played superheroes for *checks clock* 3 hours. Going to a volunteer event with my agency if this is still going on Monday. It’s weird to feel at home and relaxed personally when I think this means really bad things for our country at large.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        I know, but I never go back to search for old open threads. Didn’t really expect updates or further comments there.

    3. Paper Pushing Bureaucrat*

      Humbled by the unexpected outpouring of support from friends, neighbors, and complete strangers.

      Thank you.

    4. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Doing ok but incredibly lucky considering the circumstances. If I had missed getting my new hire items in by one day, I’d’ve had to take PTO for an undetermined amount of time, and I just moved and spent money on that. I have other coworkers who just started but b/c they haven’t gotten their badge or laptop, they’ve been forced to take PTO (they may exhaust all their leave by the time this is over)…

      As it is, I’m quietly teleworking at home, getting situated in the new home. The thermostat is a bit iffy and I’m recovering from a bad cold that morphed into a stomach bug, but still grateful I’m afloat for the meantime. My aunt gave me a gift card, so I’ve used that to buy items in case the shutdown continues….

      1. Overeducated*

        Glad you squeaked in. A new contractor started in my office last month and has to take PTO now (unless she can be assigned elsewhere as a temp?), so that really sucks.

    5. Laura*

      I’m one of those who has to work. I have savings so I’ll be ok for a while, and will get paid eventually. But, some co-workers don’t have much savings. Also, I know of people affected who won’t be paid (contractors, etc.). Just annoyed by the whole situation.

    6. Jaid_Diah*

      My pay day is on Monday, but I got some savings and my folks offered to help. I heard that legislative wants to open up the IRS, so I may get to go back to work sooner than most. We are expected to get back pay, but it’s a PITA to wait. In the meantime, I’m playing with my food processor and Instant Pot.

      I was just reading that some IRS employees were made essential because the mortgage industry needed them to verify information. Apparently, their pay came from fees paid by the lenders to process the forms. Special interests for the win!

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      I am sooooo BORED! I genuinely enjoy working so all this unplanned time off has not been super fun or relaxing, especially when I’m someone that doesn’t take long periods of time off anyway. A week is about my limit. I have been productive though and done some winter cleaning and organizing that I’ve been putting off. Financially, I’m okay. I filed for unemployment because I had zero faith that they would authorize back pay, but I just found out that back pay appears to be certain. And my husband is working this shutdown. During the last one in 2013, he was not, so that was much more stressful.

      Overall, just fed up with the repeated attacks on federal workers over the last decade with seemingly neverending proposals to take actions affecting our pay, benefits, and retirement. Throw in a shutdown and it’s just adding insult to injury.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I was really expecting to be back at work the day after Christmas. While I’m not going to have to sell anything and I can still afford groceries and rent, I didn’t go to any after Christmas sales, didn’t buy any new clothes for work, and I’ve put off some minor car repairs that aren’t going to really affect my car very much.

      Mostly I’ve been feeling anxious. Before we were let go we were told that we could be recalled with as little as four hours notice and so I feel like I can’t go too far away from home or make plans that might take longer than four hours on week days.

    9. Temp*

      I just want to say I’m thinking of all the government employees who are out of work and not being paid for no fault of their own! What a horrible thing to go through, and for your country to go through. I hope it gets sorted soon, but I won’t pretend to know enough about American politics to know how likely that is. Take care of yourselves as best you can.

  52. NonnyNon*

    How can you tell if you don’t want a job because you think it’s a bad fit, vs not wanting it because of impostor syndrome or the fear of the unknown?

    I think I might get an offer for a job I recently interviewed for and if I do everything about it seems great on paper: shorter commute (by over an hour!), equal if not slightly better benefits, same work but with clearly defined room for growth… Even if the salary isn’t higher, I’d be saving a ton of money just from lower gas and car maintenance costs.

    But I’m TERRIFIED of leaving my current job, and I don’t know why! I think it might be because this is my first job after graduating and I’m just scared to move into something new, but what if there’s a red flag somewhere that I’m just missing? How do you tell the difference between an unfounded fear and a gut instinct that you should be listening to?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Have you written out the pros and cons of the new job v. the old job? Including benefits, responsibilities, etc. It’s really normal to have a sudden wave of nostalgia over the old job even when you know it’s time to move on! I found writing it all out helps to make it a clearer.

    2. irene adler*

      How well do you know yourself? Are you very adaptable to new situations? Sounds to me like you’ll be dealing with something different- not bad or better, just different. Are you able to cope with “different”?

      If you pass this opportunity by, how will you feel? Regretful? Relieved? Disappointed in yourself?

      You might be terrified of leaving your current position because of fear of the unknown. Again, it will be different from what you know now, not better or worse. Can you articulate exactly what gives you pause about something new and different?
      There’s always going to be something you regret when going to the new job. But put it in perspective, one negative against five positives–> you’ll be fine. And have you had to deal with negative things at your current job? I’ll bet you did-especially at first. Did you do that successfully? Or discover that they weren’t that big of a deal to you?
      I trust you read the glassdoor.com reviews of the place you are going-right? Nothing there that sounds troubling?
      You’ll be okay. In a few months you’ll look back and chuckle at yourself and your worries.

    3. anonanners*

      I have been nervous about leaving every position, convinced the new place will never be as good as the last place. I’ve always been wrong. I guess I just don’t really believe in ‘trusting your gut’ – unless you have *something* you can point to that’s giving you pause. ARE there any red flags, weird interview behavior, etc that you can actually identify? If not, I would say it’s just fear of the unknown

  53. Rat Racer*

    Does anyone know of a good way to signal to your boss/leadership that you’re thinking of leaving because of a lack of upward mobility in your team? I think that my VP would be in a really bad spot if I left, and I’d like to avoid blind-siding him. In order for the VP to promote me (which is what I want) he’d have to spend political capital with his boss and the head of our national accounts team to create a new position for me. I think he’s hoping I’ll stay because I like him (I do!) and because he tells me how much value I bring to his team. But I’m itching for growth, and already have my resume out, and am starting to interview.

    What’s the right thing to do? Drop hints? Be upfront? Say nothing and then leave because that’s how business works?

    1. CatCat*

      Have a conversation with VP about your desire for growth and promotion. “VP, I am interested growing professionally and promoting to a higher level position focusing on X, Y, and Z. What would a path to such a position look like here?”

      You don’t need to say you’re thinking of leaving over it. There’s no way VP can be truly blindsided if you’ve said what you want and you move on if the employer is unable or unwilling to deliver it.

    2. irene adler*

      Remember, you are the only one who has your best interests at heart.

      They like you where you are because you are taking care of things. So there’s no incentive to move or promote you. So far, “pretty words” have done the trick in keeping you around.
      If you drop hints and drag this out too long, they may “cut bait” and find your replacement before you are ready to leave. Bosses don’t like waiting around to bring in and train your replacement, given you have made it clear you are definitely leaving.

      If you think they will be in a bind when you leave, suggest offering to help via email or after hours phone calls for a finite period of time after you leave. But don’t agree to let this arrangement drag on indefinitely.

  54. Brownie*

    Venting ahoy: My boss is trying to get me to happily say that I’ll be the backup for one of our big systems because he feels it’d be a good career move for me. He keeps asking if I want to do it, multiple times over the last month, and I keep telling him “not at this time, ask me in 6 months after we hire more folks to help take my current workload.” I’ve explained to him that my projected workload for the next 6 months is at/above my limit, but he’s gone so far now as to pull the “grandboss was very surprised you’d pass up such an opportunity” card this week. So I asked flat out if he’s assigning me to do it or if he’s giving me a choice, because if it’s the latter then I’ve already told him no. His response was that he’d prefer it if I saw what a good opportunity it is and accepted because of that.

    After that I went back to my desk and put my head in my hands for a few minutes to suppress the ranting about managers who won’t manage. Either accept that I’ve said no or flat out assign it to me, stop weaseling around! I miss my old manager who could actually manage. Ah well, another few months and there should be a new manager as we’re averaging a new manager every year and a half for the last 6 years now. I just have to wait this one out and hope the next one is better.

    1. AnonEMoose*

      I don’t know if this would help. What if you went to him with a list of your current work, and said something like “I want to help you and grandboss out with System. In order to make that happen, I’d need someone else to take on X, Y, and Z, or I wouldn’t be able to give this the attention it deserves. Is that something we can look at?”

      1. CM*

        I wouldn’t — I think this boss would take it as a yes.
        And if your boss continues asking, I’d start countering with, “Have you hired more people yet?”

    2. Totally Minnie*

      I had a boss years ago who pushed me into a “great opportunity” that I wasn’t ready for, and he did it in part by playing the “grandboss and upper management are certain you’re applying, and they’d be so disappointed if you didn’t!” card. I ended up taking the “opportunity,” and it did not end well. I am not in that job anymore. And I found out after the fact that the only reason grandboss and upper management were certain I was applying was that my boss had told them I wanted to apply before he even talked to me about it, so he was pushing me to keep himself from looking bad.

      Do not agree to something you know you are not able to pull off just to get this guy off your back. Think really hard about this opportunity he’s offering you. He thinks it’s a good career move for you. Good for him. That’s not really the important factor, though. Do *you* think it’s a good career move for you? Is it a logical stepping stone on the progression you’ve envisioned for your career? If it is, is it a step you’re ready for right now, or something you think you’d be ready for somewhere down the line? If you decide that this is a good move for your future and you’re ready to take it on, then it would make sense to have a conversation about which of your existing responsibilities would need to be reassigned before you take on this new task. But if you don’t want to do it, or you want to do it someday but aren’t ready now, be incredibly honest and clear with your boss about that.

      1. Brownie*

        Honestly, it is more of a timing thing. If he’d waited 6 months to ask me after this cycle of upgrades/new hire training/project completions then I’d say yes as this would be a significant feather in my cap in terms of future promotions and raises. He just does NOT want to take “No, I can’t with my current and projected workload” and “Gladly, in 6 months when we have new hire(s) to take over some of my workload, freeing me up to work on this” as an answer. It makes all the hairs on my neck stand up like tiny red flags as it reminds me of nothing so much as a kid trying to wheedle their parent into buying them something that the parent has already said no to.

        1. valentine*

          You haven’t said no. You’ve said, “Keep asking,” so he did. Say no flat-out, with no 6-months fantasy. Assume nothing will change, or that it will change for the worse. Do you want to stay in the role you’re in? What are you willing to do to leave?

          1. Brownie*

            I asked flat out if he’s assigning me to do it or if he’s giving me a choice, he said it was a choice, and my response was “No”, verbatim. The 6 months thing only came up after he asked for details why I didn’t want to do it the second time he asked and I told him “No” again. I do want to stay here, I’m just at BEC stage with his lack of respecting boundaries when he’s a manager. The job ad for his position went out at the beginning of the year, so he’ll be out and I’ll have a different manager within the next few months, I just have to be patient until then and cross my fingers that I’ll get a new boss who respects “No.”

            1. Totally Minnie*

              I hope your new manager is better at communication and boundaries.

              In the meantime, if your current manager keeps asking, you can try saying something like “I’ve already told you what it would take for me to say yes to this. Until those changes have taken place, my answer is still no.”

  57. Jack Be Nimble*

    Someone who applied for a job less than a week ago to try to “follow up.” He tried to name drop a member of our executive team, stated that he was often in the building and thus available for an interview at any time (!), and being generally pushy.

    My finger is hovering over the Reject Candidate button, but I’m double-checking with the hiring manager before I do so.

    I feel bad for the kid, he clearly got bad advice from someone, but all I have to offer is a whole can of no.

    2. AliceUlf*

      “Call me any time! I’m often in the building! I’m in the building now. I’m watching you now”

      o_O *calls security*

    3. BRR*

      I just scheduled a phone interview with an organization that has their office in the same building as my employer. I jokingly thought I could just offer to come up, it would be easier than finding a place for a phone call. (I didn’t thought).

    5. Namey McNameface*

      I had an applicant say she stayed st a hotel next to my work so she could come meet me as soon as I wanted to.

      It was a no.

  58. DaniCalifornia*

    I feel like walking out of work right now and just saying ” See you Monday.” I cannot handle the nepotism and favoritism and the fact that my supervisor ignores my newest coworkers flaws because they’re best friends now. I get stuck fixing things, the accountants and our boss/owner push things on me because they know my newest coworker might mess it up. The latest temp hire is also related to my supervisor. I paused my job search because it’s tax season and it’s REALLY hard to imagine burning all my bridges here at this very small office (10 people) for a new job. Even though this job is TOXIC. The job before this was almost a decade ago and closed down so not a great reference anymore (even though former boss agreed to be very recently) and the job before that is a big corporate thing where they could only verify my employment.

    I have a coworker still at this office who has agreed to be a reference, and 2 former coworkers that I worked closely with who have agreed as well. I’m just trying to determine if it’s worth it to keep job searching and should I find something in February, I could leave. I’m also dealing with school and managing ADD, depression, bipolar II. My dr is concerned about my blood pressure. My husband is concerned. Anyone ever left their job at a horrible time but for their sanity and health? I’m just concerned about screwing myself over later on (Once I graduate I would be switching careers and could be job searching again in 2 years or so.)

    1. Mazzy*

      I’m dealing with similar dynamics but not from nepotism. It’s amazing how some companies keep completely useless people around! Especially at my job, the most inept person makes the most!!!!!

    2. Boredatwork*

      100% I am also a CPA. I quit public accounting on August 22nd (my big deadline was Sept 15). This has not hindered me professional. I still see my former bosses at training events, they are all nice to me, and seem genuinely happy to see me.

      There’s no good time to quit your job, and you’d be surprised how little employers care about references.

      1. valentine*

        Burn it. You sound like you need medical leave before pursuing/starting a new job. See if your family will pay for that. Staying may leave you forced to stop and too ill to job-search.

    3. Teeth Grinder*

      If your job is making you sick, or exacerbating your medical conditions, check your options for medical leave (e.g., short term disability, FMLA). That gives you breathing room to look for a new job, or for them to reassign duties in a way that you can come back to a more reasonable situation.
      If it helps, think about what would happen if your BP really went out of control, as in hospitalization or stroke. I promise, the company would find a way to get along without you, busy season or not.

  59. ella*

    My job has a morning crew and a night crew. Night crew is having a rough month. They’ve been passing some kind of illness around amongst themselves (which has not yet found a vector to the morning crew, thank the gods), but it seems like since Thanksgiving, not a week has gone by without a night crew person calling out at least once (sometimes multiple times) per week. And then this week one of them quit. Just up and left a job she’s had for 8 years on an hour’s notice.

    I hope she went straight from this job to a great job, because her job search will sure suck once she realizes she can’t use this job as anything other than verification of employment, and she’s had it since she graduated college.

  60. Justin*

    I think this is work-related enough, but:

    So here are some things about me.

    I am one semester into my doctoral program in Education. I plan to focus on racism and masculinity and their impacts on mental health and, by extension (if I can prove it), educational outcomes for black boys (I should say “males” since this would include higher ed etc, but I think you get it). Obviously this is somewhat personal for me. We’ll see what happens when I get to trying to publish.

    At the same time, I finally stopped being scared (I had an ex-friend shatter my confidence ten years ag0) and got back into writing fiction lately.

    In a fantasy world, I end up publishing both fiction and non-fiction (re: academic work, but perhaps for a broader audience). I harbor no expectations of really making money off of fiction, but it’s hard for me to write if I think no one will see it, so even if it’s self-published for funsies, I want to get it out there.

    The short version is: the fiction is personal and discusses my own (fictionalized) experiences with the same subjects I plan to study. Would you think it’d be a better idea for career pursuits (I don’t plan to enter the academy, but I do want to publish) to pursue sharing it through a pseudonym down the line to separate the two, or would it not be an issue? In other words, would people take my professional work less seriously if they read my creative work touching on similar issues?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Why not write the fiction under a pen name for now? I suppose in the internet age, it’s easier to be revealed, but I would try that.

      Your doctoral research sounds like an important topic.

        1. TeapotDetective*

          I used my imaginary friend from when I was six years old as my nom de plume’s first name (even if it’s more nom-de-screen, as it’s all online). Maybe that’s a starting point? :P

        2. Extra Vitamins*

          The canonical formula is Middle Name, Name of Street you lived in as a child ( in a foreign language if it was a number street).

    2. Lady Jay*

      I’m in a doctoral program as well and publish non-academic stuff under a pseudonym, which is derived from my actual name. No big reason, I just like keeping my academic reputation separate from my popular writing reputation, especially in an age when everything is Googleable.

      1. Tara S.*

        +1, I don’t think it’s a big deal to use a pen name for publishing fiction. Also, congrats on getting back to writing!

    3. No Tribble At All*

      I have no relevant experience, but I’d publish the fiction under a pen name. (a) people might confuse your fiction and non-fiction (b) if you write about an experience in your fiction work that happens to “you”/the narrator, people might think it happened to you IRL (c) people in your life might try to ID themselves/other characters in the fiction work.

      Because the topic is personal and linked to your academic work, I’d publish under another name.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I don’t think it’s going to be a huge benefit or a huge detriment either way, but I can see a marginal benefit to using a pen name, with little downside.

      At this point in your career, you don’t (YET!) have name recognition or authority in the fiction or non-fiction realms. I don’t think the fiction would necessarily undermine your professional credibility, but it could be a distraction and give you a “fuzzy” image when you need to project a very focused image to sell yourself for professional positions.

      If you do use a pen name for fiction now, you can always merge the two identities later on when you get better known. Once most fiction authors become known in their genre, pen names are used for branding, not for actual anonymity. Many authors use a single online presence, and feature the work of different pen names as different “departments” or series.

      FYI, As a general rule of thumb from authors I know, if you are writing series in a well-defined or niche genre, you have a better chance of making money indie publishing, and you can reasonably expect to start breaking even after the third book if you have a decent marketing plan. Traditional publishing doesn’t offer much advance or do any marketing for you on unknown or midlist genre fiction (romance, sci-fi, thriller, etc).

      If you write standalone novels or more literary or commercial fiction with a broader but less defined audience, it makes sense to pitch for traditional publishing. The trad-pub distribution “machine” has the most advantage for these type of books. Having professional recognition or credits in your field, or a platform as a speaker, etc can also help you get a fiction publishing deal, because it’s a talking point.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah, that’s true. Something to think about. I don’t care a ton about the money, but if I wanted it to be a side hustle, that is useful info. thank you.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      One of the best selling romance novelists in America is also a professor at a university. She uses a different name for her romance novels and everything appears to be going quite well for her, so I say go for it!

    7. CM*

      FWIW, I also publish fiction about the same topics I’m interested in academically, and there’s some crossover with my real life (this is mostly in the area of violence against women rather than race). My normal advice would be, unless you’re writing porn, you should be fine using your own name. Academia won’t care. Malcolm Gladwell’s fans won’t care. It will build your brand and let readers engage with your ideas in different ways and maybe get some crossover interest in your art and your scholarship.

      HOWEVER you’re doing a PhD in Education, and your interest is in black youth. If you want to work with youth directly at any point, that can throw this whole calculation off, because, rightly or wrongly, people go absolutely nuts about this kind of stuff when someone wants to work with kids and teens. If your fiction has anything to do with sexuality — which I feel like it might, since your interest is in masculinity — beware. It may be that you want to use a pen name or it may be that you want to say, “This story is important to me, and if that means homophobic parents bar me from working with their kids one day I’m cool with that.” But I think that’s the risk you need to look out for.

  61. Not-so-top chef*

    Not super, super work related, but do you meal prep lunches to bring to work? If so, what dishes do you bring?

    1. ella*

      When I was more on top of meal prepping, I made things like pizza (wrapped in foil) and congee (in tupperwares). Beans and rice is also good. If you are familiar with reddit there’s a meal prepping subreddit (I want to say it’s r/mealprep?), but the r/EatCheapAndHealthy sub also has great resources.

    2. Cheesecake 2.0*

      I do! I usually do soups, or casseroles, or pasta dishes. Sometimes stuff like curries or scrambles with eggs. I like to have a warm meal during the day, salad just doesn’t cut it for me. I have beef veggie stew today.

    3. Birch*

      I bring my lunch 99% of the time. For warm meals, I used to just make a bit more for dinner and take the leftovers. I’d also bring salads that had lots of different ingredients. My favorite one has quinoa, arugula, goat cheese, olives, red onion and pomegranate seeds.

      Today I had rye crispbreads with cheese, a banana, carrot sticks with peanut butter, and cucumber. I’ll vary this with apples, different kinds of crackers or pretzels, nuts or edamame, raw bell peppers, grapes, yogurt, simple sandwiches like a BLT, even a bag of Cheerios. It’s like healthy children’s snacks but I find it keeps up my energy without giving me that post-lunch sleepiness. And a bonus that my lunchbox is super easy to clean.

    4. CatCat*

      I always double the number of servings for dinner then save half for lunch the next day. Two birds, one stone.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yeah, I just do leftovers a lot. Things that work pretty well as dinner and also lunch the next day where you just have a microwave:

        – any kind of stirfry (if it’s a touch dry, add a splash of water before you microwave it)
        – any kind of pasta dish
        – any kind of soup or stew
        – tacos (I have a bunch of little containers for lunch so I’ll have one with the filling, one with cheese, one with salsa, etc. and include a few tortillas)

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Leftovers FTW, yes. We like to make pizzas for dinner on Sunday, so there’s my lunch on Monday (and Tuesday as well, sometimes). Then during the week we’ll often do pasta or a casserole, so we portion up the leftovers into Tupperware and there’s another lunch.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      Breakfast tacos. They are cheap and if you under cook the scrambled eggs just a bit they don’t get too rubbery in the microwave when reheated. Super easy to make a bunch and freeze them.

      Chicken fried rice. Make a ton of rice, add in my chicken and egg (other people prob throw in veggies but I don’t) and I’m good to go, I think it stays well for awhile. The sauce I cook with has soy sauce, mirin, and brown sugar and I make a bit of extra (uncooked) to take with the chicken and drizzle it on the lunch before reheating.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I almost always just bring dinner leftovers. I like to use glass containers so they are microwave safe, and bring whatever utensil is required. I’ve known coworkers who had extra plates/bowls for meal time and it wasn’t a big deal at all.

    7. Joielle*

      I don’t really “meal prep,” per se, but I make extra portions when I cook and bring leftovers to work for lunch. I was super put off by the whole meal prep thing for a long time since it seemed like you had to spend hours on the weekend making a bunch of identical tupperwares of stuff, which, absolutely no thank you. But as long as I’m making stew or curry or a casserole anyways, might as well make extra. I like to use glass containers with locking lids.

      1. Not-so-top chef*

        OMG I couldn’t stand the “eat the same thing for 5 days in a row” concept. WHY?! There’s so many different foods out there, I don’t want chicken with rice 5x in a row! I usually make 2 portions of whatever I’m having and save one for lunch the next day or the following day etc.

        1. Youth*

          I cook for just myself, so I generally end up eating whatever I make all week, alternated with eating out and family dinners. It can get tiring. I try to vary what I cook, though! This week’s recipe was store-bought tortellini cooked in pesto with chicken thighs, grape tomatoes, asparagus, and golden raisins.

    8. mr. brightside*

      I do a big cook on Sunday, portion it out into five, and then have for the week. But 1) fridge at work, and 2) I have no problem eating the same thing every day.

    9. fposte*

      Soup, frozen in single-serve containers, is my mainstay. Fruit and cheese for sides. Sometimes I bento up with leftovers.

    10. Lucia*

      I cook only for myself, so will make casseroles, chili, soups, etc. and freeze in individual portions to take for lunch. I do need to find more recipes, though – getting tired of the rotation of the same 5-6 dishes! :)

    11. irene adler*

      I buy chicken thighs when on sale. Then roast them in various ways. Freeze in individual bags or in Tupperware. Then pull one out for each day’s lunch (transfer to Tupperware if not already in one). Add cooked veggie and small scoop of rice, and dinner!

      (I eat a small evening meal, so lunch is my main meal of the day)

    12. Becky*

      I love cooking and baking but I can’t eat everything I make. My roommate works 4/10 and then does volunteer work on Friday and Saturday and so basically has NO time at all to do meal prep. Last year at one point we came to an agreement that I would do meal prep for her–I charge her for ingredients and a little on top for labor and she get’s home cooked meals that have the calorie count figured out (we’re both counting calories to lose weight). I just did some meal prep for her last weekend and she ended up with 6 meatloaf/mashed potatoes/greenbean, 4 chicken posole, 4 coconut curry beef stew, 3 split-pea bacon soup, and 3 roasted garlic and parsnip soup meals. The total was $33 for 20 meals. She’ll usually freeze half of them and then thaw as needed after the fresh ones are done. Soups are really easy to reheat in a microwave. I usually warn her up front which meals should be eaten first (like this time, the chicken posole has some fresh garnishes which likely wouldn’t freeze well so those should be eaten before the garnishes go bad-the garnishes are in a separate container from the soup so if it did go bad the soup could still be eaten on its own).

      1. Nessun*

        Can I come live with you?! I’d absolutely love it if I could have an arrangement like this. I loathe cooking, but I like hot meals at lunch. I used to live with a guy who did all the cooking and I did all the cleaning (I don’t mind washing dishes at all!!), for a while it was wonderful. Then not so much – but now I just wish someone else would do all the cooking! What a great solution you’ve got for your roommate and yourself.

    14. Squeeble*

      I love salads, so over the weekend I buy a big container of lettuce and portion salad fixings into small containers for each day. I keep salad dressing and dry toppings at my desk. Everything goes in the work fridge at the beginning of the week and boom, my lunch is sorted.

    15. Higher ed*

      I mostly rely on leftovers and try to make a big pot of soup on Sundays. I keep a few filler items on hand for when I’m short on time: Annie’s Organics meals, premade stuff picked up from the grocery store. I figure my backup plan is still cheaper and somewhat healthier than going out for lunch.

    16. Rezia*

      I often do warm salads for office lunch, prepped on the weekend.

      On Sunday, I roast a bunch of veggies (this week: cauliflower and carrots, but I also like brussel sprouts), plus some sort of shredded green (kale and cabbage hold up well over the week, I like them raw especially when chopped up very fine), plus some sort of protein (grilled chicken, avocado, goat cheese or tofu, which can be baked with the other veggies). Optional: add a grain like farro or quinoa or wild rice.

      I usually divide it into tupperware on Sunday, but only add dressing in the morning before going to work, otherwise the Friday salad will be soggy. (Dressing: olive oil, spoon of dijon, lemon juice, salt, pepper is my go-to). By lunch time, the raw greens will be slightly tender from the dressing. What I like about this system is that if I’m worried I’ll get bored halfway through the week, it’s easy to mix up the components, e.g. I can do half the boxes with avocado and half with tofu, keeping everything else the same.

    17. bookends*

      I often plan for having enough leftovers – when my partner and I cook dinner, I try to make things with 4+ servings so we each have a meal for work. Sheet pan meals (roast a bunch of veggies and meat, include potatoes or make rice/quinoa/couscous) are nice and easy, and stir fries heat up well. Soups are also great, especially if you bring toppings (cilantro, avocado, and tortilla chips for enchilada soup, etc) that make them feel fancy. Things that freeze well (like burritos) are nice because you can make a large quantity, not be stuck eating the same thing all week, and have something on hand when you don’t have time to meal prep or don’t end up with leftovers.

    18. Admin of Sys*

      All the time! (when I got hired at this job, I got invited to a regular group lunch in the break room, which has been great for my budget.) I tend not to like sandwiches, so 90% of the time, my lunch meal is chicken, veggies, sometimes a starch, and a bit of cheese or some sauce.
      I get a rotisserie chicken from the grocery store every other week or so, and strip it down to the bones, and freeze the chicken pieces in a big baggie. Then, the morning before work, I’ll grab a pyrex container, put in about 3 oz of the frozen chicken, whatever frozen veggies I want to include, and a handful of cheese or a splash of sauce and take it in. If it’s summer time, I’ll usually include a few of grape tomatoes as well. Sometimes, I’ll throw in a serving of rice if I’ve cooked some up recently, or have leftovers from chinese or something. And if I’m feeling adventurous, I’ll swap the cheese out for greek yogurt and some tiki masala or curry spices and the like. It’s a quick easy and surprisingly versatile meal.
      (If you’re not a chicken fan, the meat can be subbed with cooked ground beef or pork-loin or whatever, I just find chicken really easy)
      I also cook up big batches of soup and freeze them in wide mouth mason jars, so I can just microwave them in the jar. (if you do that, make sure you use a plastic lid, or it’ll crack the glass when you freeze it!)

    19. TeapotDetective*

      Most days, it’s leftovers – I cook a big meal on Sundays, and the leftovers are two or three days’ worth of lunches. Some variant of meat + sauce + veggie over a starch is the default – beef and broccoli over rice is a good starting point, as is spaghetti and meatballs with a veg on the side.
      I also have a trick from my mother – once every, oh, three or four months, devote a half a weekend day to making soup. Chicken noodle, beef stew, whatever. Make a BIG pot, let it cool, then divide it into servings (cheap ziplock bags work nicely) and freeze it. Anytime you need a quick meal, grab one out of the freezer, grab a bowl, and pop it all in the microwave or in your lunchbox.

      For breakfasts, mini-quiches all the way. Grease a muffin tin, put chopped bacon and finely sliced/chiffonaded spinach in the bottom, pour scrambled eggs over and sprinkle a lil cheese on top. 20-25 at 350, let em cool just enough to handle before you take em out.

    20. Jaid_Diah*

      I try. My shift is six to 2.30, so I eat breakfast and lunch at work. Breakfast usually is a medium container of hot oatmeal/teff grain mix, some cheese, and a fruit. Snacks are carrots, olives, and nuts. Lunch can be a sandwich or a medium container of rice and curry or something similar. I drink tea and seltzer.

  62. Mimmy*

    Looking for a gut check.

    I’ve mentioned before how dysfunctional my job is. Management is constantly changing things and not sticking to plans that seemed to be long-term and useful. For example, in the fall, we formed a few committees, one being to discuss the weekly schedules. This lasted maybe 2 months before the manager, Fergus, just took over doing the schedules. Penny and Amy draw up a draft but Fergus always has the final say–which makes sense–but it’s causing headaches for the staff. I think a couple of the committees are still functioning, but it seems like he just disbanded the scheduling group with no explanation. It feels like we have zero say.

    There have been other things too, including complaints about management from students and staff alike. Here’s the problem: I’ve become somewhat close with one of the supervisors, Penny. She’s my direct supervisor and the subject of some of those complaints. I talk with her a lot because my office is in the same hallway as hers and she’s been helpful to me. Fergus, the manager, has actually been helpful to me as well.

    Okay, this post makes no sense, I’m sorry! TL;DR – How do I reconcile the fact that I have a close working relationship with my supervisor and the manager; yet, I do not agree with how they are managing the center?

    I do work for a state agency, so maybe it’s a case of “this is what you get for working for the government”!

    1. Tara S.*

      I generally think my boss is a good supervisor, but he definitely does certain things I don’t like. I try to take it as a learning opportunity – he making these decisions and I’m seeing how they play out, so now I can take that information with me for the day I (probably) become a manager myself. Sometimes I speak up if I’m involved in the issue, but if it’s a higher level thing, I just watch and learn.

    2. CM*

      I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I had a good relationship with some of the senior managers where I worked, and thought they were generally good people, but they were also in a bad situation and sometimes making poor decisions that just made everything worse. I felt really conflicted about how to handle that, because a) I have a strong, ingrained instinct that people who like each other have to agree with each other (which is wrong, but not every instinct people have is right), b) I have a strong, ingrained instinct that people who are more powerful than me will stop liking me if I’m too vocal about disagreeing with them (again, shouldn’t be true in a healthy relationship, but instincts are weird), and c) I felt like it was two-faced to get along well with the senior bosses but also agree with the complaints the staff I was managing had about them.

      At the time, I just muddled through the situation and I didn’t have a consistent approach to how I dealt with it. Sometimes I tried to convince my team that so-and-so was a good person who was doing a bad thing out of ignorance rather than malice, and sometimes I just nodded along while they vented at me. Sometimes I tried to explain to the senior managers why their decisions were so unpoular and what the impact was, and sometimes I just nodded along while they vented, too. I wasn’t trying to be disloyal to anyone — I just didn’t know what to do.

      If I had it to do all over again, what I wish I had done was speak up more directly about the decisions I didn’t agree with, and put more effort into learning an assertive way to do that, so as not to make it a personal attack. It’s hard when you feel like someone’s looking to you to be an ally and you really don’t agree with what they want you to support. But I think the answer (which I didn’t manage to do, myself) is to come around to the idea that disagreeing with someone is a normal, healthy part of a friendly relationship. If your warm relationship with Penny and Fergus is contingent on you not speaking up when something bothers you, then it’s not really a warm relationship in the first place. It’s more like a hostage situation.

  63. Rose's Angel*

    I have been at my current job for over 6 years. I havent had any performance related issues. Months ago I started asking about moving up and learning more ( which would move me under a new supervisor). A short time ago at my review my supervisor started saying I wasnt detail oriented and I needed to work on that. Then I found out I was pregnant and then I had a miscarriage. When I started having complications with my pregnancy I told supervisor to keep her in the loop. She told me that she was happy but I really should have lost weight before hand. 3 times in 1.5 days she mentioned my weight and my pregnancy. After i had the miscarriage (which I told her about) shes doubled down on her earlier statements noe saying Im having major performance issues and shes lost confidence in me. In 10 days I have been pulled into her office 4 times while shes grilled me on my mistakes and demanded to know why I am having performance issues. Ive explained to her repeatedly that its a mixture of the miscarriage (which happened christmas day) and recovering from that and my workload. Her response is that everyone has things going on and everyones workload is fine. Im already job searching but what should I say when Im asked why I am leaving in interviews. And what should I say to HR? Shoukd I go to HR? For reference supervisor has been brought to HR by her department 3 times in the last 2 years.

    1. Tara S.*

      What an absolutely horrible thing to say to a person! You should do whatever you feel comfortable with, but that incident alone (not even talking about her other write-ups) make me seriously doubt her judgment about your work. You don’t have to do anything, but if you want to report to HR or mention this in your exit review, I think it would be totally appropriate. I’m so sorry for what you’re going through and I hope things turn up for you soon.

      1. Roses Angel*

        Thank you. I am definitely going to HR. Though I am waiting until I have a new job before I do so.

    2. WellRed*

      I’d report her to HR. Even without the miscarriage and all the other stuff, telling someone to lose weight is way out of bounds. The miscarraige makes puts it into the stratosphere.
      Sorry for your loss.

      2. Roses Angel*

        Thank you. Ive decided I am definitely going to HR. Im not sure how Im going to phrase it but I seriously doubt they will do anything. The last time they sent her to an 8 hour management class. That stopped her behavior for a bit. But its never been quite this bad before.

    4. mr. brightside*

      She told me that she was happy but I really should have lost weight before hand. 3 times in 1.5 days she mentioned my weight and my pregnancy. After i had the miscarriage (which I told her about) shes doubled down on her earlier statements noe saying Im having major performance issues and shes lost confidence in me.

      Goodness. That’s the point where I’d lose faith in her.

      After six years, I think it’s fine to say you were looking for new challenges and you like how New Place is focused on X and you’d like to pivot more towards that.

      1. Roses Angel*

        Thank you. My entire department is ready to walk out the door. Shes terrified because 2 others are pregnant and going out on maternity leave within a month of each other. She’s mentioned (to me and others) thats shes not sure that they are even going to come back afterwards.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Yes, tell HR about this. No performance related issues in six years, and then a week after a significant health incident and personal loss, suddenly you have “major performance issues?” This is a temporary blip, and any normal manager would be working with you to give you extra support. Instead, she’s jumping all over you every other day? And demanding you keep rehashing the loss? That’s irrational and abusive.

      OTOH, don’t talk about it in interviews. Stick with looking for new opportunities.

      1. Roses Angel*

        Thank you. Irrational seems to be her modus operandi. For the most part we’ve been able to deal. She was brought to HR specifically because of her way of speaking about people (shes called me and a few others troublemakers) and she forgets the procedures shes developed and updated and then she will get mad when we do it the way she told us to. While wrong I could handle that until a training program was worked out and I could move up and out of her dept. But after the last 10 days or so I cant take the emotional upheaval.

    6. Kathenus*

      Echo everyone saying go to HR. I’d also suggest emailing HR about the meeting request and putting something in the email about discrimination based on a medical condition/pregnancy so that you have a written record of this, and so that they hopefully take it with the appropriate seriousness the situation demands.

      I’m very sorry, hope that you’re feeling better.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s a heartless jerk who sucks. That’s not how manager’s who are good treat employees with stressful life issues pop up.

      I would say it’s due to not being able to grow any further. 6 years is a good chunk of time and if you’ve hit their ceiling for whatever idiotic reasons they toss at you, it’s enough time to say you’ve grown stagnant and want to grow somewhere else.

      Yes. Tell HR she’s bullying you.

      1. Roses Angel*

        My thought is to wait until I have an offer in hand and then go to HR Hopefully they will actually do something about her.

        1. Totally Minnie*

          You definitely have the standing to go to HR now if you want to. But I do heavily endorse the idea of requesting an exit interview once you’ve got an offer, so you can make it perfectly clear to them that a major factor in your decision to leave is their mismanagement of this woman. They know this woman is a problem. They can’t not know. They have done nothing to protect you and your coworkers from her, and those actions deserve to lose them good employees.

    8. Lisa B*

      Your manager is a horrible person. You should definitely go to HR, possibly even her boss. She sucks and I’m so so sorry for everything you are going through.

      1. Rose's Angel*

        Her boss already knows how she is. She’s complained about her too. Recently there was a change in the structure of our organization and she possibly may have a different role with more responsibility and way above my supervisor. There’s a strong possibility things will change. I just don’t think I can wait that long.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      Me, too! And the fact that it was part of a framed tribute with the $2 paycheck makes me want to buy the artist a coffee.

      So long and thanks for all the fish. :)

  65. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    For those following the saga of the job I had to jump through 8,000 hoops for before even getting an in-person interview for, I found out this week that I was not moved to the next step (which was yet ANOTHER interview). I think it says something about my frustration level with the process that I was actually relieved when I got the email. I was really excited about the position itself but was honestly sick of spending time and energy on pursuing it, and I’m still really irritated that my references had to spend their time and energy filling out a lengthy survey so early in the process. I left a fairly scathing review on Glassdoor about the recruitment process, and at least now I know to never apply there again unless I’m unemployed and/or have all kinds of time on my hands.

    1. irene adler*

      Thank you for taking the time to relate your experiences on Glassdoor. You’ve done your good deed for the week. Someone, somewhere will be very grateful you did so.

  67. Black Sheep*

    Hi! Has anyone been the only one in the office whose beliefs were very different from the majority of the office? Like being the only liberal person in a group of Republicans? How do you deal? Do you say something when the majority of the office is chatting about something you disagree with? I’m new in my office full of Republicans and don’t feel comfortable yet standing up for my very different beliefs, but also I wonder if work is the place to even bring myself to discuss it. Anyone else been in this situation? Do you just vent to your friends at the end of the day?

    1. curtangel*

      I’ve been in a work sitch like that for a while now. I don’t know if this is good advice, but I generally stay out of political conversations unless I’m directly addressed. When I do I’m honest in a way that’s intended to shut down the conversation without causing unnecessary friction. Unfortunately I don’t really have a good example offhand – they’ve learned to not try to have those conversations with me so we haven’t had one in a while.

    2. Annie Moose*

      If you want to avoid talking politics altogether, a cheery-but-firm “Oh, I don’t like to talk politics at work” or “I find politics stressful to talk about with coworkers, I’d rather not get involved” should do the trick with reasonable people. Unfortunately I don’t have a great suggestion for if you are open to talking politics!!

      If you wanted to indicate you didn’t agree with what someone was saying but also don’t want to get into it, you could try something like, “I don’t really agree with that/I don’t view that topic the same way/I don’t feel the same as you, but I’d rather not get into a big political discussion at work/I’d rather just get back to work/etc.”

    3. Bekx*

      I used to be in an environment like that. I’d stay quiet at lunch when they would talk about it. If there was something said that was really out there or offensive I’d usually say “Weird, I haven’t had any experiences like that with that group of people”. Literally the entire company was republican, and I have always fancied myself independent, so I would sometimes say I was independent just to keep the peace.

      I actually had to go to a few rallys for work, one for a candidate who did not win the primary and then one where the POTUS was there. It was difficult, but I had to really look at it as a cool experience that not many people get to do. Despite my feelings on that man, I had to shove that aside for work.

      Here’s the thing, while it’s great to stand up for your beliefs, sometimes it is not safe to do so. I ultimately found another person at the company with my beliefs and that helped to vent about some of the more egregious stuff my coworkers or bosses would say.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I’m a card-carrying member of the Contrarian party, so I normally find myself either more conservative or more liberal than folks around me. Some lines I’ve used to good effect to get politics talk tamped down are:

      “Eh, I think there are a lot of different ways to look at this issue, and thoughtful people of good conscience can work and up on different sides.”

      “You know, I think the fact that people are talking about (thing people are venting against) is a sign of a healthy democracy, where we can disagree without attacking each other.”

      “Well, I figure the important thing is to be a good citizen, a good neighbor, and mind my own business about people’s personal beliefs.”

      “I try to take a long view, and I figure as long as the voters are engaged and holding government accountable, that’s good for democracy.”

      Also, taking the discussion to a meta-level about a Constitutional principle like free speech, freedom of religion, limiting governmental overreach, or the separation of powers is usually a good way to divert conservatives into a more philosophical discussion. And if you know the topic well, folks who are just following a media-led complaint du jour are going to run out of steam quickly.

  68. Lena Clare*

    Question about how long it takes to apply for a job.

    I’ve read the advice on here – Alison says it takes about 20 minutes to adapt a really good cover letter for an application (!) plus whatever to tweak your resume so that your achievements match the job responsibilities you’re applying for.

    I don’t know if this is a US thing (I’m in the UK) or if it’s a soft skills job thing but I don’t think I’ve applied for a job using my CV (which is 3-4 pages long) and cover letter since I was at university over 20 years ago.

    Ever since I graduated I have applied for jobs using the company’s application form, which takes ages to fill out but at least it’s fairly straightforward.

    Then the personal statement has to be tailored to meet the individual job specification.
    I’m finding that this takes me hours. Am I doing this wrong? I give examples for every single essential point and some of the desirable ones, plus I make it different to the actual cover letter, which I also write when sending the form in.

    I’ve built up a draft document of soft skills with examples so that I can copy and paste for lots of it but it still takes me hours to write a good personal statement, and that means I only have the energy to do one app every week or fortnight.

    Does anybody have any ideas about how to streamline this process without compromising the quality of my application? I think that I can write good applications – I’m getting interviews at the rate of about 1 per 5 or 6 applications anyway, and I only write applications for jobs I really can do, so I’m not app bombing or anything.

    1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I have no advice on how to streamline, but I can commiserate. It takes me hours to write my cover letters also, or more accurately, maybe an hour to write, and hours and hours to edit, edit, edit. I imagine a personal statement is an even more concise format, so I’d probably spend more time on it.

      I know some people who just write excellent letters straight off the cuff (my current boss), but I think it’s also OK if you have to craft and hone and polish.

      There’s also the possibility that other people are satisfied with a different levels of perfection, which I don’t mean as a jab – probably my fifth draft would be just as OK to send out as my tenth, but personally, I’m not sending until I feel I’ve done the best job I possibly can.

      I don’t think you’re doing it wrong! I think we just have different styles and comfort levels. The 20-minute cover letter is never going to be a reality for me, either.

    2. Typewritergirl*

      You’re not doing it wrong. This is just how it is – addressing the person spec point by point is never quick.

    3. Triplestep*

      Here’s how I do it to save time:
      – Create a folder on your computer for the job, and place into it a PDF of the job posting
      – Place a copy of your resume into the same folder, tweak it for the job, and save it as a PDF. The name of the PDF file should be your last name, the word “Resume” and the Req number of the job.
      – Find a cover letter you’ve written for a similar job and place it into this folder; tweak it. (This part takes the longest.) Save it as a PDF. The name of the PDF should be your last name, the words “Cover Letter”, and the Req number of the job.
      – Go back to your resume and save it in plain text format.
      – Open the company’s job posting and start filling out their online form. When they ask for resume and cover letter uploads use your PDFs. When they ask you to fill out a form with information from your resume, open that plain text version and copy/paste. (Big time saver!)

      Hope this helps.

  69. losing it*

    is there any reasonable way to ask my supervisor to move me because of a super loud person next to me? this person is a peer and they frequently (1-3 hours per day, depending) have 2-3 coworkers grouped around their desk, and Bad Neighbor is just complaining & gossiping about other coworkers and people who work here. it’s like, negative, unending, ceaseless whining and i’m reaching the end of my rope. the constant complaining is wearing me down. the noise is wearing me down. (i have nice headphones but they only block it out sometimes.) i just want some quiet and discretion. what if i went to everyone they’re talking about and told them what Bad Neighbor is saying??? anyway, sorry, i guess this is more of a rant. thanks for reading

    1. Lena Clare*

      You would probably have to speak to the coworker about them keeping it down first of all, just so’s you have some evidence that you have tried to remedy the situation yourself, and then if that didn’t work speak to your supervisor and frame it in the context of how they affect your productivity. It might help to offer some solutions (e.g. I noticed that X is a free space, could I work there?(

    3. Not Gary, Gareth*

      I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of “Hey guys, could I ask you to move it into the break room or something? I’m having a hard time concentrating. Thanks!” delivered as politely and cheerfully as I can muster.

      Unless your Bad Neighbor and friends are total jerks, that’s very likely to solve the problem. Sometimes it’s easy to get wrapped up in the annoyance that your coworkers SHOULD know something (and they should! They should absolutely know what they’re doing is rude and distracting!), and overlook the fact that nine times out of ten, they’re not doing it on purpose to irritate you – they just don’t think they’re bothering anyone.

      Start out assuming they’re reasonable people who would change their habits if they only knew that it bothered you. Go to your manager if/when that approach fails. The very first thing she’s likely to ask is whether you’ve already addressed it with them, and you can at that point honestly say you have.

    4. Windchime*

      Oh, so you’ve met Steve, then. He comes into the office every day and I’m pretty sure he has a desk, but his job seems to consist of rolling his chair around to different co-workers and loudly mansplaining obvious things to them (for instance, explaining how to use shears to the llama shearing team). I have no advice; only sympathy.

  70. FrankenStein's Gate*

    You all might get a kick out of this – it’s a literal Soap Opera.
    We had one person on our floor bringing their fancy soap into the women’s bathroom early last year, but at some point that spiraled and we ended up with 7 bottles of soap plus a bottle of lotion. One disappeared, it was replaced the next day with a passive aggressive post it on the mirror.
    Cut to this week, where the bottles have winnowed down to a couple, and presumably the same Soap Nazi writes in black marker over all the remaining bottles “DO NOT REMOVE”. This apparently wasn’t enough as yesterday there were plastic printed labels over all the bottles, the can of Febreeze, and 3 on the mirror(!!) with the same message.
    We don’t know who’s going on a Soap Crusade – especially since this time the bottles weren’t stolen, they were used up and discarded – so a couple have gone the petty route and are using way more soap than needed.

    2. Anon because this is slightly identifying*

      Why would someone remove a bottle of soap? Are you short on counter space or something? If you don’t want to use it, don’t use it. It’s not that hard.

      1. Tara S.*

        People are just like that sometimes. My small non-profit CEO sent the most passive aggressive email after he brought in a bunch of tea/creamer/etc for the office and HALF of it went missing overnight. It was just one person who was trying to hoard it for themselves! They did put it back after the email.

        1. valentine*

          I think they’re throwing it out. There’s someone on this site who throws out their colleague’s air freshener that’s in the bathroom.

    4. Llellayena*

      We’ve got a communal “fancy soap” stash for the women’s bathrooms. Every 6 months or so all the women get a “contribute $5 if you want to use the fancy soaps, we need to restock” email. My only request is to avoid the floral scents (they bother me and I can’t use the fancy soaps until that bottle is gone), but if this isn’t an organized thing in your office, scent and scent-sensitive people is a thing to consider. 7 different scented bottles of soap may be way to much scent.

      In the mean time, enjoy the soap opera!

    5. Bluebell*

      No idea but I’ll confess to being the soap fairy in my office kitchen. Our facilities manager thought it was enough to have dish soap and not hand soap. We are a 5 minute walk from Marshalls so every 2 months or so I buy a nice hand soap pump. I’m leaving soon so it will be interesting to see if someone takes on that role.

  71. Two Short Terms Stays*

    How badly would it reflect on me to have two short term stays on my resume?

    My last job was a toxic workplace (racist colleagues, abusive manager, not enough work to go around, ect.). I quit after being there for only 7 months when I received an offer from my current employer. I like my new job well enough, the work is nothing special and I don’t really click with my coworkers (although they are all very nice and not racist) but its not nearly as bad as my previous job. The problem is that my boyfriend is in the running for his dream job across the country. He would start in June, at which point I will have been at my current position for one year.

    Working remotely at my job is not an option. He says that if they make an offer but I can’t leave then he will likely turn it down, since our only other option would be to do long distance until I’m ready to job search again- which would be at least a year. I would feel terrible holding him back so that I can keep working a job that I’m not nearly as passionate about.

    What are my options here? For the record, the rest of my work history is solid but I’m still young in my career (I’m in my late 20s).

    1. irene adler*

      You can explain leaving job 1 as “bad fit” (hey, it happens!) and leaving job 2 as a relocation, so I don’t see the problem. Plus you will have been at job 2 for about a year; nothing wrong there.
      Also, when you apply to your next job, let them know that the job description was something you felt was just too good not to pass up.

      1. Two Short Terms Stays*

        That’s helpful, thanks! I keep thinking about Alison’s advice that if you have a short-term stay, you have to make sure that you will be in your next job for a while after that to prevent looking like a job hopper. But I guess in this case I do have two good reasons.

        The city where my boyfriend is interviewing is somewhere I have always wanted to live, so that part definitely wouldn’t be a hard sell :)

        1. irene adler*

          There ya go! Your journey all along was to find a job in New City. Just took some steps to get there.

        2. Darren*

          I believe if was after the second short-term stay she said you really need to be sure on the third job but as always these things have to be caveated by that this second one is fully explained by the moving to another city which doesn’t leave it reading like what concerns hiring managers when looking at resumes with short stays. Those look more like:

          Job A, left because it wasn’t a good fit
          Job B, was toxic and intolerable
          Job C, manager didn’t know how to manage

          At this point hiring managers start to wonder, were all these places really that bad fits? Was it you instead? Were you not able to critically review the places your were applying and realise they would be bad fits? It won’t necessarily get you discounted entirely in your application, but if they do interview you they are going to be a lot more probing and with some doubts that would have to be resolved which other candidates wouldn’t be getting.

          You’ll be fine with you situation though.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Agree that since you’re relocating, there is no job hopper vibes.

      Also a 7 month gap is bordering on “yikes, explain the gap please”. Much more so than a 7 month gig, followed immediately by your current job. You got a better opportunity and moved on.

      Only remove the 7 month gig if you’re scared they’ll be a horrid reference and want to be able to avoid being associated with them.

    3. Triplestep*

      But it sounds like you’d be quitting to move at the one year mark rather than starting to search at the one year mark, which would be preferable all around. Sure you’ll be long distance with the BF until you find something, but the common wisdom is that you’re more attractive to potential employers if you are employed, plus you’ll then have money for your move. Plus a few more months at this job under your belt.

      Honestly you risk getting the side eye from hiring managers if you are unemployed across the country from where you started just because your boyfriend got a job there. They’ll put two and two together and realize you left the last job at the one-year mark with nothing lined up which seems irresponsible.

  72. Doug Judy*

    Is it always a bad idea to work for a small company run by a husband/wife team? I have an interview for a job that sounds really good, but then I noticed on LinkedIn the two senior officers are married to each other.

      1. Doug Judy*

        Thanks, I will be looking for sane, reasonable, and very competent when I interview.

        And for my other Nine-Nine fans: sane, reasonable, and very competent would be a great title for a sex tape.

      2. A Consultant*

        That’s great advice! As a one-person company contemplating when/how to make the shift to become a two-person company, I’ve started thinking about the imaginary job applicant’s p.o.v. Your advice is useful for me to think about things I could incorporate in a hiring process to be supportive of an applicant learning more about me / be assured that I’m sane, reasonable, and very competent, given the completely reasonable trepidation. Thanks!

    2. Bekx*

      I don’t know about always, but I worked for a company that was a husband and wife team and then the wife’s son from a previous marriage. He was a self proclaimed sex addict and said some disgusting things to us. I was super young (23) and he was not and it was extremely uncomfortable. The problem I had was I had no one to talk to in upper management about it since they were all family.

      I don’t think there’s a polite way to ask “How would you handle complaints about the other” but it is certainly people in that situation should think about.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I will. I’m pretty good at reading people, so aim hoping can read the dynamic. It think they have about 10-20 employees total so it wouldn’t be just me but when there’s no real HR and the two at the top are related, I’ve read enough AAM to know that could be not great.

    3. Em from CT*

      I certainly wouldn’t say “yes, always.” I worked for a company just out of college, for three years, where the husband was the CEO/President and the wife was the COO/HR person. And it was *marvellous*. They were the best bosses I’ve had, now in over a decade of work experience. So it’s possible to get lucky and find a workplace where this does happen!

      That said, one thing I’d look at pretty hard: do both members of the couple have actual relevant experience in the kind of work they do for this org? I.e .if one of them is, say, the Development Director, does he actually have development experience that you can find on his linked in? Otherwise it might end up being a situation where the one partner hired her husband to work at her company just because he needed a job/salary and not because he is good at his job.

      …not that hiring one’s partner is bad! And I do think there are companies that can pull it off even if the spouse doesn’t necessary have the work experience. The company I worked for, I don’t think the wife had done much operations work before. But she was very smart and organized, and made it work very well.

      But I’d rather think about it beforehand and be pleasantly surprised than the other way around…

      1. Doug Judy*

        Great advice! I dug deeper to see their prior histories and see what they did before this. They both have extensive histories at much larger organizations and their must be someone else who’s the CEO but that person’s not on LinkedIn or the company website. Feeling a bit better about it because they seem to check the “very competent” box. Now hopefully they are also sane and reasonable!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Personally I’ve worked for family owned, including spouses business my entire career.

      They’re awesome and I’ll never steer clear of the setup. Just listen to your gut. I was burnt once but they are terrible humans and business owners, nothing about them being married.

  73. KEM*

    I’m a recent grad who is currently in Marketing. However, my true passion is definitely more on the HR side of things. Talent Acquisition specifically. I’m already looking to take an Intro to HR class that is given by a local university. It is a single course meant for small business owners or people looking to break into HR. I’m also looking to take the aPHR test as tangible proof that I do know about HR. Is there anything else anyone could suggest that might help me break into the market? I have some HR experience (interviewing, hiring, training) in previous internships and leadership positions.

      1. KEM*

        That’s definitely something that I’m going to look into! Hopefully I’ll be able to combine my experience. :) Thanks!

    2. Darren*

      I would suggest turning the question on it’s head.

      Have a look at job descriptions for HR positions (specifically those in Talent Acquisition) what are they typically asking for?

      Looking at some junior positions in this area in Australia and most of them are focused on having a degree (doesn’t matter in what), a background in sales (which I assume marketing would have given you tangentially) and a knowledge of the sector that you’ll be working in i.e. if you are going for IT Talent Acquisition a basic understanding of what the roles are in the IT sector (i.e. the difference between a developer and a system administrator and how that would impact their suitability for a given role). Experience in any HR role or a recruitment one is a plus and required for more senior roles.

      I’d check what this looks like locally (just skim some job descriptions and requirements) as well as the kinds of businesses offering these positions and then look at what you might be missing. It’s probably going to be sector specific knowledge for the businesses in your area that you are going to have to look to target.

  74. Anonymous Academic*

    I got devastating news at work recently. Anonymous for obvious reasons…

    I work for a university. A few years ago (trying to keep the timeline vague) a professor was accused of sexual harassment of a student (favors for grades, alcohol, inappropriate behavior etc.) The university tried to silence her but she went public. He was suspended but after sensitivity training an arbitrator ruled he was allowed to come back and teach. He never denied any of it.

    The program work for relies on funding from a generous family that has funded us for decades. In light of the outrage of the professor being allowed back they decided to no longer fund us (and another program). They have halted all donations to the university. After this year is up there will be nothing.

    Both programs are closing. The university has decided to go against the arbitrator and not allow him to teach but it is too late and the donor will not reconsider.

    At the end of this semester I will be jobless. I’m not a professor and I have no tenure or union. We are all devastated and so are our grad students. None of us agree with the professor’s actions or the university trying to silence the victim but we had nothing to do with any of it.

    I have never worked anywhere else. We all have bills and families. Our whole program is gone and there is no way we can raise enough funds. We were all blindsided. Not how I wanted to start 2019. Thanks for listening. I am so nervous about job hunting.

    4. Kay*

      So the donor decided to stop funding programs that had nothing to with the university silencing the victim, nothing to do with the arbitrator decision and where the professor had never worked in? I’m sorry you are being punished and losing your job over something you had no control over. And I’m sorry the donor took out their outrage on your program. My fingers are crossed that you find another job soon OP

      1. Typewritergirl*

        They decided to stop funding programs at a university that didn’t take things seriously enough. I can understand that.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Me too. The professor’s behavior was inexcusable, and the university’s attitude toward the value of women on campus vs. men is horrifying. It’s outrageous how many people’s careers are negatively impacted because of men who can’t behave like decent human beings, and because of institutions who would rather prop these men up than give a crap about the harm they cause.

          It’s awful that the mess this man caused is costing OP their job. I hope OP moves on to better and brighter things, and that Professor Octopus has to start over from complete scratch due to his own actions.

      2. BuildMeUp*

        It sounds like the family’s entire donation went to the two programs. They felt they couldn’t support the university at all given the decision not to fire the professor, so they stopped donating. I don’t think they said, “Cancel these two programs,” they just decided they couldn’t in good conscience give any more money to the school based on how this was handled.

        To be honest, I understand where they’re coming from – especially since it seems very possible that they only let the professor go in the end because the family decided to stop donating and it became a money issue.

        OP, I’m sorry about what’s happening, and I hope you find a new job (hopefully somewhere where they handle these things better)!

    5. Dr. Doll*

      It is always, always, always less expensive in the end to Do The Right Thing First.

      Universities. Congress. Hollywood. Sports. I do not know why so many incredibly smart people cannot figure this out.

      I’m so, so sorry, Anonymous Academic. That is devastating and heartbreaking and so not fair.

    7. Darren*

      So (and you might have already tried this) but given the situation you are laying out have you considered talking to the donors directly and see if they might fund your program(s) independently of the university? It sounds like they don’t want to support the university anymore in light of the professors behaviour and the universities soft handling of it (and rightly so in my mind), but given they’ve donated to these programs for years now they are probably things that they honestly care about, given your existing relationships with them, and your freedom now you no longer work for the university you could potentially start a non-profit with the same aims as the program with them funding it.

      It’ll definitely be a shift from what you are used to, but it’s perhaps something worth considering given the situation?

  76. Fishsticks*

    What do people think of the resume templates you can purchase on etsy and stuff? I’m going to be starting a job search in a few months and am thinking about purchasing one (especially cause it’s only a few bucks for a nicer layout that’s a bit more eye-catching). I’m not in design field so that’s my only concern. Any thoughts?

      2. Mockingjay*

        If you use Microsoft Word, open a blank document and search for resume templates to download. MS has several that are easy to tweak and have decent white space. Some use color headings and line separators; I simply change the font to default black.

    2. irene adler*

      Let your accomplishments be the eye-catcher!
      HR has already seen all the ‘eye-catcher’ resume templates that are out there.

    3. Autumnheart*

      If you have any web skills and a creative itch that you’d like to scratch, there’s no reason you couldn’t make a fancy-looking resume online, with a link to your perfectly sedate PDF/Word version.

  77. Sally sparrow*

    I have an interview today. I was given the name of my interviewer beforehand and found them on LinkedIn and read the accomplishments they list for the three jobs they’ve had. Would it be creepy to bring up a question I wouldn’t have known had I not found them on LinkedIn? The question is essentially I saw teapot production was completely revamped in the last 5 years, can you tell me more about that (when the job in question is teapot production).

    1. CM*

      I think you can openly say, “I checked your profile on LinkedIn and noticed that…” and then go into your question. LinkedIn is meant for this, so it’s not creepy. It would be different if you didn’t have their name in advance or referenced something personal.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Agreed. I have had candidates say they looked me up on LI and saw I used to work at XYZ or whatever.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you bring it up in a less “I definitely know about this” way and more of an exploratory way? “You do occasionally revamp your approach to teapot production, or has it stayed the same for a long time? How often do you re-evaluate your approach?”

    3. Kathenus*

      I got a job once in large part because of all of the details I knew about the organization and its programs for a real deep dive via the internet, including finding some old internet pages that were no longer active on their website but which turned up on searches that linked me to past newsletters which were a treasure trove of information. They were very impressed during the interview. If you were asking about bringing up something personal about them, I’d feel differently, but for something work-related I think it shows the time and effort you’ve taken to research the company and the position.

  78. Sarasaurus*

    Could really use some advice today. I am miserable in my current job — feeling underutilized, undervalued, bored, and just generally frustrated with the organization. I’ve been job hunting for a few months now, which has resulting in some promising interviews. However, I learned very recently that I am pregnant with my second child (yay!). I REALLY don’t want to job hunt or start a new position while pregnant — but I also REALLY don’t want to stay where I am. Questions for anyone who has started a new job during a pregnancy:

    How far along were you? Did you still take the same amount of maternity leave you originally planned? How did you approach it with your new boss? Was it an enormous hassle? Any other insights or helpful info?

    Thanks so much!

  79. Is 5 years getting stale?*

    I’m a mid-career professional with a question. I’ve been at my current company for 5 years and there is no growth. Overall it’s a great place to work – I have autonomy, I work from home, I work with great people. But I’m not in the role I want to be in. My company does contract work so there isn’t always the opportunity to do my favorite job. Recently I’ve been looking for other jobs. I made it far in the interview process for 3 companies in the past year but there aren’t always open positions that align 100% with what I want to do. Would it be beneficial to take a position that’s similar to the role I want but with potentially less pay/benefits? In the short term it might suck but long term I could get more skills and experience to support my long term career goals. I don’t want to feel like I’m “moving backwards.” Thoughts?

    1. CM*

      I don’t think we can really answer this question for you — you’ll need to weigh your desire for career advancement against all the other factors like salary, benefits, work environment, etc. I would caution you against sacrificing pay or benefits unless you’re confident that the new role actually will advance your career. Don’t move for the sake of moving, or move into a job where you’re still not in the role you want AND you’re making less money. As for getting stale, maybe this depends on the industry, but what I’ve heard is that around 5-8 years is a good time to move — you’re not seen as being totally entrenched in the old company, but you’ve stuck around and established a good track record.

  80. General Chaos Wrangler*

    The city I work in has proposed a paid sick leave mandate being hashed out in City Counsel, something similar to the one in Portland, Oregon. As one of those who has come to work sick and ignored health issues out of fear of lost pay, I am 100% in support of it. The owner of my company, however, is not, and has sent the CFO to state that position in front of the counsel at least twice. From a business perspective, yes there is a cost associated with it, and I know business hasn’t been what it was since we went lost our second season of production, but given how employees are generally treated around here I am so frustrated hearing them argue against this.

    As it is, vacation is only available to full time, year round employees, but you have to jump through hoops to be classed that way, even if you’re stepping into a position that was previously full time. You only get a week of vacation AFTER the first year, not accrued, then only two weeks for the next seven years. Raises aren’t given annually, they are given in a last ditch effort to keep people from walking out, and we went through the same public opposition when the city enacted a minimum wage that was about 35% higher than the states.

    I know ultimately, only I can decide what I am willing to tolerate in exchange for a stable job with health insurance, but I’m curious what others think. Thanks!

    1. Mazzy*

      I think it depends on the type of job. The problem with these proposals is they treat all type of jobs the same. I watched a documentary that just showed a bunch of car washes and restaurants closing because of this. The guys who worked at the car wash then just did it illegally in the street. So no one benefited. I think sick leave is good but mandatory vacation and long bereavement pay is going to far. You don’t need two months off from work because your aunt died…..or it shouldn’t be your employers responsibility to pay for it at least.

      1. Natalie*

        No sick time ordinance in the US involves more than a few days a year. If a business has margins so low that they can’t manage this fairly minimal entitlement, but that wasn’t a successful business. Chances are some other expense was going to come up and push them off the ledge anyway.

        No one’s entitled to have employees, and they certainly aren’t entitled to subsidize their desire to own their own business with someone else’s underpaid labor. If you can’t afford it.

    2. fposte*

      Yeah, I’d be frustrated at pushback from a company like that, too. Do you have any sick leave at all?

      And yes, there’s a cost factor in giving sick leave, but there’s a cost factor in losing talented applicants and employees to jobs with better leave policies.

      1. General Chaos Wrangler*

        We currently have no sick leave at all, although I had a a coworker cleverly use exempt status laws to take paid time off for surgery. That is a different venting session though.

        I think it’s worse because I hear the non-public and public conversations on it. Telling someone off the record that the line workers would blow all their sick pay on hangovers, and telling people on the record that they would have to cut other benefits to cover the cost carry different weights.

        Also, they have meeting after meeting about why we can’t recruit and retain quality employees, but push back so hard on the things that would make people want to work here.

          1. General Chaos Wrangler*

            You get paid holidays after 90 days full time or three seasons seasonally, which in our current schedule is three years.

            The seasonal vs full time is also a real thorn. In my own case, I was hired from temping in March to take over for a full time, benefited employee who left, but I was hired as seasonal, and converted to full time in September. So even though I joined the company in the spring, I didn’t start earning any benefits until fall. It was 18 months before I earned my first week.

  81. Y'all are loud though?*

    My coworkers complain VERY loudly in our open office plan about work and get in trouble with our boss (who overhears them from across the hall). However, they argue because they were talking about work related issues, they should not get in trouble for this. I’m just annoyed at how loud they are, but is it justified if it’s work related?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is it just moaning and complaining, or is it constructive criticism or something along those lines?

      1. Y'all are loud though?*

        I’d say it was a mix of the two, but leaning towards complaining. To me, it didn’t seem like something everyone in the office should hear, but something either they speak with privately with the team or just on their lunch break. It included calling some people idiots.

    2. fposte*

      It’s fine for the boss to tell them to keep their voices down no matter what the topic. Loudness is disruptive.

    3. WellRed*

      There’s certainly a lot of questions today about loud coworkers. I agree with fposte that being loud itself is a problem.

    4. Bagpuss*

      No, I think if they have legitimate concerns they should be bringing it up with their manager, and if the boss has already told them off once, they know it isn’t acceptable.

      If they’re continuing to behave the same way despite having been warned, they are..unwise, to say the least, and I can’t see that them arguing that they shouldn’t be disciplined is going to end well for them.

      For yourself, I think you’d be fine simply saying to them “Would you mind having your conversation elsewhere? I’m trying to focus on [task]”

    5. BuildMeUp*

      I think they’re talking about the National Labor Relations Act, which has a section about employees being allowed to discuss wages and work conditions. I don’t know if what they’re talking about would fall under that, but their volume definitely wouldn’t!

  82. Salary Questions*

    Why do places ask for your past salaries in the application process? I feel like this is an unfair advantage to me. I am SEVERELY underpaid at my current job and in the past. So I am trying to find better paying jobs. But when they ask my salaries I feel this is a disadvantage because I’m trying to make anywhere from $5-$15 more an hour that I currently am.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      They ask because they want to lowball you. Don’t tell them what you currently make. Some states in the U.S. are even outlawing this practice (not sure what the laws are in other countries regarding salary history).

    2. Excel Wizard*

      It is unfair, and they do it to see if they can low-ball you. I would avoid telling them if you can, but if you cannot tell the truth. Then be prepared to ask for your $5-$15 dollar raise with a list of reasons and some data on the current market rates, your old salary is not relevant. What is relevant is the work that you will be doing and the skills you will be bringing to the company with you.

    3. DAMitsDevon*

      Although these bans aren’t in effect in very many places, if you haven’t yet, double check to make sure you don’t live somewhere where employers asking about your salary history is banned. If you do happen to live somewhere with a ban, you can politely, but firmly tell them they can’t ask for that information.

    4. Tara S.*

      If they are asking in an online form, put in $0. That way you at least can try to deflect if the question comes up in person.

    5. Roses Angel*

      For my current position. I added the benefits into my pay to inflate it a bit. For example I got a check for a partial tuition reimbursement so I added that.

  83. anon to praise the ducks*

    Really excellent ducks! We have seasonal mallards where I work, but nothing this cute…

  84. Finding lost respect back?*

    How do you work with (or for) someone you don’t necessarily respect when there are so many positive aspects to the position that it doesn’t necessarily make sense to leave? This started a couple of years ago when old boss told me current boss should/would replace him when he retired (at that time, current boss had no experience in this specialized area; meanwhile, other colleagues with experience and interest weren’t considered for the position). Things amplified a few months ago when my boss hired a close friend. Since that time, examples of the benefits of cronyism are rampant. Meanwhile, the morale of the rest of the our team falters. If anyone mentions an idea or suggestion that doesn’t align with their thoughts, team member is shut down and sometimes the manner in which this is done gets really uncomfortable. At this point, most people just keep their heads down and have pretty much quit sharing ideas at our weekly meetings. It’s to the point that I dread seeing either individual. At the same time, I am extremely independent in my daily responsibilities, can come and go as I please, and am well compensated. Since I’m the only person who I can change in this situation, what advice would you offer?

    2. Rovannen*

      Worked under similar situation for 10+ years before a change in directors.

      My goals were a functioning department and to outlast her. I reminded myself everyday that I was there for the Cause, and not for her.

      I learned to do my part of the job to the best of my ability, making improvements in small incremental steps to fly under the wire. At the end of the day, my processes became the standard.

      I became the Person Who Could Get Things Done. Many didn’t want to work with my director, so they came to me.

      I learned how to song and dance to my director to get things done. I had to subtly butter her up, drop walkaway comments, and keep an unflappable demeanor regardless what was happening. Everything had to be her idea, so it sometimes took years to plant an idea and let it grow. I know this is manipulation, but she was detrimental to the organization and even though there were outside pushes to get her gone, the PTB were happy with the status quo.

      5 years ago she quit in a snit. Goal achieved. Our department has flown and I redirected my energies to going forward instead of trying to keep a sinking ship afloat.

  85. Dr Wizard, PhD*

    I’ve finally come to the realisation that I’m very unhappy in my current job, despite it looking fine on paper, and I really want to make a change. I’m underpaid, without prospects of promotion, and the job is very drudgey.

    Seriously considering looking for jobs abroad (I live in Ireland), partly to make a change in general and because I like the idea of working in a foreign country for a few years.

    Does anyone have any advice or suggestions on how best to go about this?

    [Background: I’m 32 with: PhD in English (focus on LGBT genre fiction) and publications; experience as a professional freelance researcher; two years’ govt policy experience including managing a large project, working with international organisations, and coordinating the allocation of grant funding.]

    1. Sammie*

      Hi Dr! As a fellow Irish person who has been on a foreign living adventure for a few years now, I just want to say best of luck. You sound like you have some really great experience that would be highly desirable. Check out the different visa situations in any country you like the look of, check in with any connections you’ve made and see if their company or any company they know of are the sponsoring kind. Hopefully someone on here will have some websites you can check out for actual job searches.

      I don’t know anyone who regrets working or studying at least a few years abroad when they have the option, even if ultimately they decide there really is no place like home. Keep us updated.

    2. Grandma Mazur*

      Do you want to remain in academia? If academia-adjacent would be something you’d consider, there’s the newly-created UK Research and Innovation in the UK (home to the seven Research Councils, among others). Job vacancies are posted at the somewhat cheesily-named topcareer.jobs website…

  86. Anon because this is slightly identifying*

    As I posted above, I’m moving to a new office. I’ll be put in the middle of a work group that I have no affiliation with at all, because someone needed to be moved elsewhere for non-work-related reasons. It feels really, really strange, and I’m not particularly happy about it. I hope I don’t end up venting a lot about this on future Fridays. :-/

    (Also, if you’re going to move someone who hasn’t requested a move, the least you could do is provide boxes. It’s not like this whole thing was my idea.)

  87. curlyjulius*

    Hello AAMers! I have a question that is specific to salary negotiations for classified employee positions at a state university. I have several interviews scheduled for admin roles for which salaries are advertised (a specific dollar amount – not a range).

    Does anyone have experience attempting to negotiate salaries for these types of positions and if so, were those attempts successful? I’m mostly trying to get a feel for how flexible university departments can be with this type of work. In case it’s helpful, these positions are all full time and non-exempt. Thanks so much!

    1. Semaj*

      I work in HR at a university! If the salary is stated without a range or without a “+ depending on qualifications” there is no negotiating power. At least that’s true where I am, and it makes sense for admin type roles. Look at other job postings and see if there’s a “+ depending on qualifications” or if they present a range. The hiring department is trying to make the salary and the range or lack thereof clear – take their word for it.

        1. Semaj*

          Good luck on your interviews! I will say with all the drawbacks of working at a university there are benefits. Admin roles are great to get your foot in the door and move up the ranks.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      If they are advertising a specific dollar amount, you should be prepared for that to be their final offer. But, it’s still worthwhile to ask how concrete the stated salary is, and negotiate if at all possible. I used to work for a state university, and the ONLY time a raise was possible was at the initial offer. During your interview process you might hear that merit raises are possible or that COLs are guaranteed, but I’d suggest you look at the number listed and ask yourself if you would be happy with that for the next four or five years, because (at least in my experience) merit raises can be rare and COLs are like a percent every year, if that.

      1. Tara S.*

        State salary bands should be public information you can google or get access to. Look up the job title and it should have a range for the position. They might really not be willing to budge from the stated number, but technically they will have the ability to pay within that range. (Signed, someone who did not negotiate for her classified state job because she thought the numbers were firm, but later learned she was at the very bottom of the stated range. You can negotiate, just within the band.)

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, I work for a state university and our COL raises are 2%. Nothing for merit. The benefits are amazing and the work is fine, but it’s kind of demoralizing to know that I can work my butt off and get the same raise as the person who does the bare minimum.

  88. Ms. Anon Friday Grump*

    Hi All – question about farewel lunch etiquette. Over the past two months my dept (30+ ppl, split into a few teams) has had a few ppl quit. Every time someone quits, there is a farewell lunch that takes 1.5-2h, usually on a Friday, and nearly every time it is at this gross, cheap, greasy, deep fried food restaurant that supposedly serves some Asian fusion cuisine (I say supposedly because I have had actual Asian fusion in many forms and this ain’t it). My mostly male coworkers and a handful of ladies (I am gal in my mid 30s) vote on this place. We are all engineers, not sure that is at all relevant though. About a year ago I agreed to go twice for team lunches, had an upset stomach every time, was very vocal about it, but I keep being outvoted so now I just don’t go. Plus I have actual dietary restrictions/very sensitive stomach. The other factor is the time. The time used for these lunches has to be made up. We are only alotted a 30min unpaid lunch. To leave the office building you have to scan out with your pass. Our bosses have become very strict over the past 6months about this, to the point of, in my mind unfairness. I.e. we had what looked like a mandatory team lunch in the fall, but were not allowed to log hours for it because we weren’t actually working (not true because the lunchws were mostly shop talk, this is a drastic change in mgt attitude from about a year ago). When we don’t log hours for such team lunches, we still get paid (we are all salaried workers), but it comes out our overtime hours bank. We don’t get overtime pay, but can bank hours to accumulate for days off. So the hours used up for lunch either have to be made up or they come out of the overtime. I personally do not want to use my hard earned overtime hours on terrible food. To maintain a good relationship with whoever is leaving our company I always make sure to have a nice chat with them, offer to keep in touch, briefly explain that I cannot eat the food at this greasy spoon etc. The departing employee is always gracious and understanding. I have a good rapport with my colleagues in general, but this farewell lunch thing is just a pain.

    My question is – am I being an anti-team player here? Should I be handling things differently? Or am I generally handling it well? Your input would be truly appreciated.

    1. CM*

      I think you’re fine. I like your approach of having a nice chat with the coworker who’s leaving to say you can’t attend the lunch but wish them well. It doesn’t sound like anyone is giving you a hard time about this, and if they do, you have very valid reasons for not going to these lunches.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Stop telling the departing co-worker that you aren’t coming to their farewell because you don’t like the food. Instead simply say how much you wish you could come, but you couldn’t make it happen. Be vague — for all they know you had another project/appointment/meeting/conflict etc. Saying that it is because of the food, even if I agree with you, could come across as snobbish or entitled.

    3. WellRed*

      Man, that seems like really poor working situation for, well anyone, but especially for something like engineers. No wonder people keep quitting.

      1. Ms. Anon Friday Grump*

        Thank you, you’re definitely on point with that comment. Not a toxic place, thankfully but not stellar either.

        And thank you for the others’ comments as well, really appreciate them. It’s a fair point not to repeat the food part every time and keep it more vague regularly. I already turn to the more vague explanation do if other team members ever ask. And true, no one is giving a hard time which is good and I am grateful for that. It’s unfortunate that the bad food part combined with the way hours for team outings are approached by mgt, just makes team lunches completely unappealing.

        And to just clarify one thing – I am far from a food snob, though I fully recognize no one implied it. To clarify, the restaurant I described is just abhorrent, sans health code violations. Any regular national fast food chain is superior to it and I happily dine at those at team outings, as they typically have many food choices that I can easily pick from.

        Truly appreciate you inputs. They helped me put this annoying dilemma to rest.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Boom. My reaction was “people keep quitting…not shocking!” after the crackdown on hours was mentioned. What a sht-hole.

  89. Peachywithasideofkeen*

    Hey everyone. Today is my last day at my first job in my career after grad school. I’m having all the feels! I’m excited about my new job, but am still really sad to leave this place (despite how crazy it has gotten- the reason I decided to leave). I’m also stressed out that people will be throwing me under the bus or saying bad things about me after I leave. This is coming from nowhere, I’m a high performer and have always gotten good performance reviews. And even if they do, it doesn’t matter, I’ll be gone. It was just an awkward timing because I resigned on my new boss’s fourth day, so she doesn’t know me that well. I’ve been doing everything I can to leave on a good note though. I’m also just stressed out about how much of a mess my work is going to be with no one doing it. I know it’s not my problem, but I even though I’m leaving I still care about this place a lot. Any words of wisdom?

    1. CM*

      Relax! This is a very normal thing you’re doing. Your coworkers liked you, they’re probably sad you’re leaving, they will deal with it like functioning adults. New boss is dealing with lots of transition anyway in her first week — she doesn’t know you, so your leaving can’t throw her off that much.

      I had a job that I was really invested in and was surprised at how long I still felt connected to that place. Have coffee with your old coworkers once in a while, but don’t feel any responsibility for how the old workplace is getting along. Walk away and enjoy leaving all the messes behind (before you walk into your new ones at your new job)!

      1. Peachywithasideofkeen*

        Thanks! I’m feeling very nostalgic about things today (even though I’ve only been here 2 years). There are a lot of things I will miss, despite the crazy stuff going on the past few months (and the fact it’s only going downhill from here). In a way I’ll miss that too, it has been pretty entertaining! I’m the 13th person on the management team to leave in 2 months, so that kinda shows how things have been going. Luckily I already know some of what I’m getting into with the new job because a lot of us have landed in the same place! I feel like everyone else that left here was already over it, and I’m the only one who really feels bad and is sad about it. Thanks for assuring me I’m not being entirely crazy!

  90. UhJoss*

    I found out today that my boss experienced a miscarriage. She’s mentioned her and her husband were thinking about having kids in conversation for at least two years and I know she’s had a fairly significant number of medical appointments, so I think (but don’t know) that this this pregnancy was a long time coming.

    Is there anything as an employee that I can do to help? I have absolutely no intention of asking her prying questions or anything like that and maybe the reality is the best I can do is just do my job and give her space, but I’m just wondering if there’s anything else. I like and respect her a lot and having had my own experience with miscarriage, I know what a hard thing it is.

    1. Temperance*

      If you heard it from her, tell her that you are sorry for her loss. If you didn’t hear it from her, don’t break it up at work. For some women, it’s really devastating, and for some women, it’s not, and you don’t know which applies to her.

    2. Robyn*

      I think your instincts to give her space and not pry are spot-on. Of course, everyone is different and copes in different ways, but generally I’d say treat her the way you would have wanted her to treat you in the same situation. For me, that would be continuing to treat her normally/without obvious kid gloves, allowing her time each day to focus on something besides her loss (i.e. her job), and maintaining the fiction that you never stumbled upon her crying in her office – which my intern did for me this summer after my miscarriage and I am forever grateful.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I would probably not discuss it at all, sad as it is. I just don’t think there’s any professional or comfortable way to talk about medical issues in the workplace.

  91. Tassie Tiger*

    I need validation that I had a weird/offputting interview!

    It would have been my first supervisor position, in food service. I thought my 4 years of food service, and training experience, would make me a shoo-in. At the interview after small talk I smiled warmly and said, “Take me through what a typical day would look like.”

    She said she couldn’t possibly do that, the list would be 40 pages long, and I didn’t have experience so I wouldn’t understand if she told me.

    We spent 45 minutes with me asking in various ways what the job would actually look like, and her saying she couldn’t tell me, going off on tangents, etc. She said I’d have to go through training on all the stations so I’d be able to supervise them properly–sure!–but then she said because of slow hours, she wouldn’t be able to give me the hours to practice on certain stations.

    me: Uhh are you ok with me supervising a position I haven’t learned really?
    Her: I don’t know, what do you think?

    She kept acting like I was supposed to lead the conversation, while I was floundering, my smile weakening, trying to figure out WHAT the job actually was. “So, I would be making sure things get done?” I tried again. She sort of shrugged and said, “It’s just too hard to explain.”

    She also said that maybe I wouldn’t make it through the training to become a supervisor?? But why would I quit my current job if I didn’t know if I’d get this one? I said, “Are you saying there’s an extended on the job trial period?” and she said no, it’s more to see if I really feel I’m up to the challenge. Ok…I guess?

    She said she didn’t know me and I had no idea, for instance, how I’d handle rude customers. I was shocked she didn’t ask me any questions–not a single question. I was by this point too worn out to push her to ask me how I’d handled things in my 4 years experience, my training style, etc. She said she had no clue what my manager style would be. I said, oh, it partly comes from a person’s personality, right? And she said not at all!

    Thanks for reading this novel. I’m feeling pretty crappy because apparently my hard years of work, study and training aren’t even work a part time job at a diner helping coworkers get the dishes washed and the eggs served.

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      She sounds like she had no clue.

      I also, in general, stay the heck away from people who try to put down their interviewees or claim they might not be able for the job.

      These people are insecure.

    2. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      That sounds very weird and off-putting! I’d probably write it off as that person not knowing how to interview and someone who might be hard to work with. Sorry you had that experience!

    3. only acting normal*

      I’d consider that a bullet dodged.
      Not asking any questions?! Sounds like she has no idea what’s required of her own job, never mind the requirements of the job you applied for!

    4. LilySparrow*

      Don’t feel crappy. This has nothing to do with your ability or qualifications. This person is on a petty power trip and is more interested in having somebody to insult and manipulate than in getting the work done well.

      You seriously dodged a bullet.

    5. irene adler*

      Your “hard years of hard work, study and training” are destined for much better than this. They showed you that this was a nutzo interviewer. Can’t imagine the job would be any better.

    6. sammy_two*

      It’s definitely her, not you. I wouldn’t put it past her to offer you the job later anyways because she seems like that kind of person. If she can’t be clear in the interview, my guess is you would never know exactly what she wants from you while on the job and she is likely is major gaslighter. Keep looking – you’ll find something that’s a great fit for you. Good luck!

    8. aiya*

      sounds like you dodged a bullet!

      I had a similar interview experience once, where the interviewer didn’t want to spend any time speaking about the position and dismissed almost all of my answers (I could literally see his eyes gloss over…) I really thought it was my fault at the time for not performing well on the interview, but after speaking with peers and mentors, I realized that some people are really just awful interviewers. I had a feeling that my interviewer didn’t like me the moment I stepped into the room.

      Sounds like the interviewer wasn’t at all invested in you as a candidate. You don’t want to waste your time with someone like that anyway.

    9. ..Kat..*

      Try to imagine getting a performance review from this person a year from now. “I can’t explain, it’s too complicated, but you just aren’t performing well.”

  92. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Does anyone on here have experience with recording and producing audiobooks? A buddy and I want to get back into sound production but I don’t have a clue about publication. (I made ads for a radio station, they just got broadcast–so I know zip about packaging and delivery for book sales.) Anybody in small press publishing out there with some 101-level resources for audio?

    1. LilySparrow*

      As long as you have the audio file prepared, you can publish through Amazon ACX (the self-pub arm of Audible), just like publishing text through Kindle Direct.

      The ACX website has lots of resources on production and the publication process, including “ACX University”.

  93. bitters*

    How do I not be… bitter about my position?
    – I’ve been working as a tea pot communications specialist at a global tea pot company for less than a year, but I have almost a decade of experience.
    – I was led to believe this position was more senior than it was. However, I was essentially an overpaid intern for the first 6 months because my department was the only one without a comms intern (the other department has a manager, two specialists, and two interns). This work load was immense and too much for one person- I was working 60+ hour weeks, I tried to discuss the issue with my manager (“Well, the work’s got to get done”), etc. Luckily, our director recognized that my workload was untenable I was able to hire an intern and my client load was reduced. Unfortunately, my main focus is a client that is “ridiculous” and many people have refused to work with them.
    – My manager went on maternity leave and I reported into a co-worker. The co-worker was incredibly micromanaging. During her Thanksgiving holiday, she called me to scold, lecture, and verbally berate me. She has mentioned in previous conversations that I was not the first choice for my position and she had to convince the other leaders that I was the person for the job. Consequently, when she mentioned things like “I stood up for you, I vouched for you,” it felt like there was subliminal message of “I got you this job and I can take it away from you.” She also lied during the conversation by claiming my co-workers had vented to her about working with me and her work. I followed up with them and another leader- it was not true. I did speak to HR about this whole event and my HR rep was horrified. I reported into someone else until my manager returned from maternity leave.
    – Everyone else in my department seems to have a leader who cares about their professional development. I don’t know if it’s because my manager really doesn’t understand my role or because I’m the only person with my role in the department? Either way, I feel alone and I have nobody who advocates for me.
    – I took this position because I thought it would give me the opportunity to develop a more diverse communications skillset. Instead, I’m essentially doing the same thing I’ve always done. Not to mention, I have less autonomy at this role than I did in my first communications position. My client openly sneers at my suggestions, argues with me even when I back up a recommendation with data, mandates what I create, and nitpicks everything that is sent to them for review. In a previous role, I was known for being proactive, my out-of-the-box ideas, creativity, and high quality work. Here, I feel like I need my hand held and each month, more and more responsibilities are stripped away due to organizational changes.
    – Multiple people have mentioned to me that they do not feel like my role is set up for success. I don’t need constant adulation (especially as the work I do is not exceptional), but the neverending negativity and endless rounds of criticism are getting me down.

    I am, as you can undoubtedly tell, so bitter. I am exhausted, beaten down, and depressed. Is it wrong that I wanted someone to say, “Hey, I’m sorry X said that to you- it was inappropriate”? Am I needy for wanting to hear my manager say, “No, we chose you because you were the best fit for the role”? How do I stay positive in a position that appears to have no upward mobility? How do I talk to my boss about how I am genuinely concerned that I do not have the opportunities to make significant contributions due to this ridiculous demands client?

    Halp?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Honestly? Focus on getting out. This place sounds awful, and assuming your decade of experience isn’t made up of a lot of short term stays, don’t worry that it hasn’t been a year. All of the reasons you pointed out – the position was more junior than originally advertised, there’s no room for professional development or upward mobility, you’re looking to develop a more diverse communications skillset – are excellent reasons to be looking for a new position, and reasons that a potential employer would understand.

      I’ve been the bitter person in a lousy situation before and it just sucks the life out you. Find a new job, and get through the day to day while you search by telling yourself that this isn’t permanent and that you’re actively working to get out. Knowing that the misery will end and that the current situation holds no bearing on your life because it’s only temporary can be a freeing mindset.

      Good luck!

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Oh and a quick follow up – it sounds like the HR person is on your side and was willing and able to make a change for you. It is possible to talk with them about switching teams? You mentioned it seemed like other groups within the department were receiving support that you wanted, if it fits your skillset it might be worth asking to move to one of them.

      2. Minerva McGonagall*

        Totally agree-time to refresh your resume and cover letters. You can easily spin this as too junior, wrong fit, etc.

        I got bitter towards the end of my last job after no advancement and a really tough job search. It’s really hard and really draining. Don’t let the bitterness keep you down and in a crappy situation.

    2. AnonyMouse*

      My situation is not remotely the same as yours, but I relate to your second paragraph and the questions you are asking. I have a lot of bitterness toward my job left over from this time last year when I was expected to do my job, cover for my coworker on leave, and 50% of the job of a problem employee who eventually left (they were also just generally a toxic person, but that’s a separate story). I was only 6-8 months into the position and it really wasn’t fair to me to have that workload just dumped on me. My boss only told me once or twice during that time period that he appreciated my efforts, and I later found out another coworker had to prompt him to do so. By that point it was too late and I already decided that I was going to start job searching. That whole experience was scarring for me. I also can’t help but feel bitter toward my newer coworkers who are being treated so well by my boss. They’re getting really hands on training (I was given a binder and basically told to train myself) and my boss is very concerned about their workloads.

      I certainly don’t think you’re needy for wanting to hear that you are valued in your organization. I know I certainly stopped feeling valued about a year ago and am looking to move on as a result.

  94. AnonyMouse*

    I’ve posted a few times about how I’m waiting to hear back on a promising position I interviewed for at another university. It’s been a long and slow hiring process though, which is frustrating but I’m trying very hard to stay positive and patient (it hasn’t been easy). I applied for this in early October, heard back a month later for the phone screening. Was told that in person interviews would be after Thanksgiving, and had my in person in late November/early December. They had a few weeks of in person interviews, so they weren’t done until right before the holidays. They understandably delayed moving forward with hiring until after the New Year. I’m definitely understanding that the first week(s) of the semester are always busy at any university (a contact that I have who is familiar with this office let me know that they had several events this week that required the majority of their staff’s time), however I’m getting really concerned that they haven’t requested that I send my references to them yet (I’ve applied for a few positions at this university, and it’s not an unusual practice for them to not request these upfront). They’ve been otherwise very communicative with me as a candidate, and I even sent a polite response to their delay message letting them know that I was still interested and happy to provide any additional information/materials if needed. Not even sure if I have a question in here to be honest, I think I just needed to vent about how difficult it is trying to patiently wait for an answer!

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I work in higher ed and it can be a long long process for all the reasons you mentioned! It’s so hard to be waiting. Keep your head up and keep applying!

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I certainly intend to keep applying, but new openings have been slow to be posted too (I’m geographically limited, so I have a small number of institutions that I can apply to).

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          HigherEdJobs also has an option to search for remote/online positions if that interests you-I added that to my search when I was stuck in a specific area. Good luck!

  95. Lucia*

    Job search question! In 2015, I changed fields – got a paralegal certificate and left elementary school teaching. The first job I had in law, I stayed for only 3 months; I’ve been at my current job for 3 years now. I left the first job on good terms, and only because I was offered another position I’d applied for back before I took it. The change reduced my commute literally from 2 hours one way, to less than ten minutes, and increased my salary by half.
    I know the advice is generally to leave short stays off your resume, but I’d like to leave the 3 month job on, for a couple of reasons. For one, I don’t have many references from the legal field I can use, and I believe that attorney would give me a good one (though it may carry less weight, given the short time I was there). Also, there are some things I did at that job that aren’t part of my current one. For instance, I used the online filing program for my state’s largest county, which I don’t use now because I’m working for a tribe (US), and we don’t practice in state court. I’d like to be able to include those skills.
    What should I do? Include the job and include a note in my cover letter explaining the situation? Include with no note? Leave it off but include some of the things I did under the separate skills portion on the resume? Leave it off but mention in the cover letter? Something else altogether? I am hoping to move to a private firm, not another tribal job, but don’t have a lot of experience with state law/courts – the short term job was it, other than what I got out of my certification class.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I’d put the short job on there for all the reasons you say. If you list the skills elsewhere, that could lead them to ask you when you did “X” and then wonder if there was a nefarious reason for not putting that job on your resume.

      What I would also do is add your locations for the jobs next to the company names. That will make it clear that it wasn’t in your home city and offers a built-in explanation as to why it was short-term.

      1. Bagpuss*

        this is what I’d do, too.I think the shortness is not a big issue, as its not a pattern, and you’ve had your current
        job for 3 years

  96. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    Hi all, I’m wondering if you can help me figure out a rough timeline for job searching. I’m a recent graduate, currently in a service program similar to Americorps which ends the last week of July. I’ve started updating my resume, looking at what’s out there, etc. but I’m not sure when the right time is to actually send out applications, since I wouldn’t be able to start until probably August. Is it worth it to start applying in February/March? Should I mention the situation in my cover letters?

      1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

        Thanks for this–I’m thinking primarily nonprofits and community organizations, but I’m also looking into university jobs, so maybe now is a good time to apply for those since they operate closer to an academic-year schedule.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          One issue you may run into with university jobs is that many start the fiscal year July 1 and may want you to start as close to that as possible. However, it may also be possible that they don’t post those jobs until after July 1 because of funding. It’s a bit all over the place and really dependent on the department more than anything.

          University jobs that are posted right now are more likely to be looking for someone to start soon, but university jobs that post in May/June probably won’t start until July/August (if you have a quick search/turnaround).

  97. My New Employer is Kinda Mess*

    I started a new job several months ago, and overall I like it. Everyone is really kind, and I’m passionate about the mission. But… it’s a mess. It basically seems to be a complete free for all that is somehow still functioning. People very often don’t show up to meetings they RSVPed for, people don’t return information/small assignments I ask for, etc. But most importantly there’s just a complete gulf in the culture in terms of managers telling staff to do a certain thing, and then staff complying. I think one of the problems is that the next step down from the CEO is departmental directors–there’s no COO or anyone like that to basically be disciplinarian/bad cop.

    I’m in a new role, and a big part of what I was hired for is to systematize stuff. But I’m up against WAY bigger roadblocks than I anticipated. Does anyone have experience changing a culture from (well-intentioned, still getting by) chaos to order? What happened?

    1. Amber Rose*

      We’re in the middle of it. We had the exact same thing too: there was upper management, and then there were department heads. One of the department heads ended up being promoted and assigned the role of middle man. He started having meetings with all the different groups to see how they were doing things and what problems kept coming up, and also asking for suggestions.

      So the first thing that happened was a reporting structure was put in place, and the second thing that happened was flow charts detailing how work should move around between departments. People were given very strictly defined lists of their specific roles, and anyone wearing a lot of hats had most of those hats taken away and given to other people, some of whom were hired just for that reason.

      The biggest problem we encountered with all this was everyone saying in the meetings, “oh yeah, that’s great I love it I get it,” and then leaving the meeting all pissed off and not actually going along with what they were told. So we’re having more meetings and still tweaking things. It’s an ongoing process. It’s very slowly improving. We’re already having less metaphorical fires than even a year ago. But the old hands, the ones who have been here and enjoying the cowboy free for all, they are tough nuts to crack. There’s a lot of resistance.

  98. Stop telling me I look like I'm concentrating*

    I have a coworker who comments on my appearance more often than I’m comfortable with. There’s a possibility that he might move to the desk right next to me in our open office plan soon.

    It hasn’t really been a problem for me so far, but having him right next to me will give him more opportunities to make comments. I already plan to be more firm in saying “please don’t comment on that” instead of just laughing it off, regardless of whether he moves desks. I am a little concerned that our working relationship will become strained if I have to push back on his comments too much.

    Should I mention his behavior to my manager in advance? Hope the move doesn’t happen and bring it up with my manager only if it becomes a problem later? Just be more firm in setting boundaries if he does move and when he says things?

    2. Temperance*

      Talk to your manager about why you don’t want him next to you. I would also start unsolicited comments on his body and appearance, if the firm comments to tell him to stop won’t.

      Your working relationship is already strained because you are uncomfortable wtih him.

      1. LawBee*

        “I would also start unsolicited comments on his body and appearance, if the firm comments to tell him to stop won’t.”

        That runs the risk of him seeing it as “this fun thing we do”. I don’t recommend it. Tit for tat rarely works out the way we’d like it to.

    3. CM*

      I think you’ll be fine with just being more firm in setting boundaries. If the work relationship gets strained, then you may need to talk to your manager because that means this coworker is escalating the situation.

      It’s not clear from your post whether you’re actively uncomfortable or just slightly concerned that this will be awkward. If you’re worried, and if you think this conversation would go well, you could consider asking your manager in advance if this coworker could not be moved to the desk next to you.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Be very, very clear with him. “John, I am really uncomfortable that you comment on my appearance. Please stop.”

      If he does it again, go straight to his manager.

      1. Tara S.*

        I think you can definitely use this script, but if you’re like me and want to soft peddle a bit more before you work up to it, you could also start off with something like:

        Coworker: You look like you’re concentrating really hard!
        You: Hmm. Did you need something?

        Coworker: Such a serious face!
        You, puzzled tone: It’s just my face? Is there something I can help you with?

        Coworker: You look worn out, working too hard?
        You: you make a lot of comments about how I look. I’m fine. Do you need anything?

        These aren’t laughing it off, but they also aren’t as likely to come off as “aggressive” (not that clearly standing up for your self is aggressive, but some people are very ready to take things too heavily). Once you try these, or if you’ve already tried these, I would use Lemon’s phrasing. If THAT doesn’t work, definitely go to the manager. At that point you can talk about how you tried to resolve this between you and coworker, but it’s not happening, so how would Boss like to address this?

        1. BuildMeUp*

          I like the “You make a lot of comments about how I look” phrasing, and following up with Lemon Zinger’s phrasing and then a manager if he doesn’t stop, and/or doubles down and makes excuses.

  99. TropTriste*

    Is there a way to stop people who are not your contacts from accessing your linked account completely apart from blocking them?

    I worked for a very toxic place. Now I’ve left but suddenly there are plenty of people with “hidden accounts” (i.e. whose identity I don’t see) accessing my profile. I guess some people are super curious where I will be working next but I don’t want to share this info with people who are jerks for obvious reasons.

    1. Anon Anon Anon*

      I’ve been there! I won’t go into detail, but a few people who had been sketchy in real life were routinely viewing my LinkedIn account. There was no way to completely stop it. I tried using the privacy settings, but it wasn’t enough. I finally deleted my account.

      It made sense – I was getting stalked more than I was gaining anything professionally from it. Unfortunately, job searching has been less successful since I deleted it. I don’t know if that’s a coincidence or not. But when I was on LinkedIn, I got more interest from prospective employers. Now I’m not getting much. But other factors could be at play too. I’ve been dealing with some unfortunate stuff (harassment, stalking) and the LinkedIn thing was only one way it affected my job situation, sadly. But that’s another story. I think if your network and resume are strong, deleting it is an option to consider.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Go to Settings & Privacy. There are lots of settings you might want to check out like
      Edit your public profile
      Profile visibility off LinkedIn
      Manage who can discover your profile from your email address
      Manage who can discover your profile from your phone number
      Choose who can follow you and see your public updates

    3. irene adler*

      You can go to Account-> Settings & Privacy and then access various settings (public profile, etc.). Not sure how to limit viewing access strictly to your contacts.

      1. TropTriste*

        Of course I’ve done that. But this doesn’t prevent logged-in users from accessing my account after they find it (by searching by name).

  100. Emma*

    I can see why everyone wants to talk about the ducks all the time! I want to talk about them, too! Sorry, OP :)

    1. Four lights*

      Maybe she should set up a web cam so people can watch the ducks. Or put a baby monitor on her desk for people to look at.

  101. Leslie Knope*

    What (if anything) does your office do to celebrate staff birthdays?

    I’m the office manager at a start-up and have been here about six weeks. We don’t celebrate birthdays now, but I would like to change this. We have about 25 people on staff. At my last job, we would usually get the favorite treat/snack of the person with the birthday. Sometimes we would spend up to $50 (including delivery), and I don’t think we can justify this kind of expense at a start-up.

    I also want to note we are entering a very, very busy time and half our staff is usually out of the office on any given day. This means we may not be able to get together as a group, sing Happy Birthday, etc. It will also be difficult to have everyone sign a card.

    I would love to do something, even something small – but I’m not sure what that looks like. I would love to hear some suggestions and find out what other offices do!

    1. Just Elle*

      I’ve heard of other work places that do a cake once a month for the birthdays that month (just leave it in the break room for all). I like that a lot. You could do it on, say, the 30th so its no surprise and if people can make it cool, if not cool.
      Other places I’ve worked gave out a choice of a $10 Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts gift card to the birthday person, which was always well received. Also another the boss would informally let people leave an hour early on their birthday.

      I think cards are kind of weird. They always feel forced and its a bit of a popularity thing to see different peoples signatures. You could skip it, or just have it signed by senior managers.

    2. Amber Rose*

      A lot of adults don’t want to have their birthdays celebrated, for a lot of different reasons. There’s been a lot of discussion on AAM about this, and the consensus seems to be, don’t do it.

      If you wanted to do a monthly or quarterly thing where you make cake or something available in the lunchroom and say it’s for everyone who had birthdays in the last while without naming names, that’s how we do it and it works fairly well. But if you don’t have many people in the office at a time, you might just end up wasting a lot of cake.

    3. UK Civil Servant*

      Where I work the birthday girl/boy brings in cakes/doughnuts/savoury snacks and puts them out near their desk.
      It seems back to front, but nobody forgets their own birthday (unless they want to), and people coming past will grab a slice of cake, ask whose birthday it is, then wish them a happy birthday.
      Same for other celebrations like promotion or work anniversary. The only thing we collect for, and have a presentation for, is leaving/retirement cards and gifts.
      Of course we’re not allowed to spend company money (i.e. peoples taxes) on “jollifications”, so this all has to come out of our pockets one way or another. At least we know we only have to pay on our own birthday, plus it simplifies logistics.

      If you’d prefer for the company to pay or contribute, maybe let people know you will sign off up to $x reimbursement for any birthday snacks they bring in on their own birthday.

    4. Mazzy*

      We celebrate everyone’s birthday and I hate it! Every week is more food! And I feel like I’m celebrating with coworkers more than my family and friends, which is breeding resentment. And as time goes quicker as you age, I’m standing there thinking about how it feels like Groundhog Day

    5. Namast'ay in Bed*

      My office doesn’t celebrate/acknowledge birthdays, but everyone gets an extra personal day to use on or around their birthday, and honestly an extra day off is way better than a card or treat in my book!

    7. Four lights*

      We have 20 people in my department. We do a birthday thing every 1-3 months, depending on how the birthdays fall. Everyone brings in a little something to share (cookies, fruit, etc.) We get together in an empty office, say happy birthday. Sometimes someone starts singing. Then we chat and eat food and leave the food out for the rest of the day.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      A woman in my office has taken it upon herself to make customized birthday cards for everyone, then bring them around for signatures/well wishes. It’s a little much and feels really forced to write a personalized message to someone I barely know, and who doesn’t even work in my building.

      Singing happy birthday– wow. That is not something I would ever want to do in the workplace.

    9. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      My office has the Traveling Birthday Mug.

      The Mug is an oversized coffee mug. On your birthday, the Mug is placed on your desk, filled with some sort of small treat (which must fit in the mug – it can stick out the top, but not spill). You are then responsible for filling the Mug and passing it on to the person whose birthday is next on the list. This can be anywhere from one day to several weeks in the future. A current copy of the list is always on the office fridge, so the next birthday shouldn’t be a surprise.

      One of our admins is responsible for keeping the birthday list up to date. As new people join the office, they will be invited to join in, and the list is updated with the new name(s). And when someone leaves, their name is removed from the list. No hard feelings if you don’t want to be on the list (at least 2 of us aren’t, including me).

      This is low key enough not to interfere with day to day work while still being celebratory, opt-in, and spreads the work of providing a gift evenly around people who are interested in participating. (Since I’ve opted out, I don’t know how they handle people with birthdays on the same day, people who don’t pass on the Mug at the appropriate time, or people who leave between their birthday and the next birthday.)

    10. Admin of Sys*

      We do a birthday break that celebrates all the birthday’s that month, and bring in home baked goods for everyone to share. But mostly that’s because someone wanted to have an excuse to bake for the office and other folks joined in. People have the option to ask for a specific kind of cake / treat if their birthday is coming up, but the folks who bake aren’t required to make that thing, or really anything at all.
      I think the key for any celebration is that it has to either be company funded or entirely opt in. If I was, idk, requested to bake even just once a year, I’d be annoyed.

    11. AcademiaNut*

      With 25 people you’ll be doing a card rotation, gathering for a cheap snack and singing Happy birthday every two weeks, on average. That seems excessive.

      The questions is – do most of your employees really want a fuss made over their birthdays? In my experience, a lot of people really don’t like work celebrations for their birthdays, other people (me included) would be fine with the food, but not all that keen on the singing and card, and other people really enjoy it. If you’re going through all this work to provide a perk that only 5 of your staff actually appreciates, it’s not worth the effort.

      I’d go one of two ways – first, four times a year have cake and coffee and fruit in the break room as a group quasi-birthday/social thing, or second, give people a $10 Starbucks card on their birthday.

    12. Autumnheart*

      My department doesn’t have an official birthday policy. The birthday person will frequently bring in treats for the office, or their manager will do so, or the manager will do something else for the birthday person (for example, my manager took me out for lunch, brought in donuts for another member of my team, etc). A person’s “office friends” might give them a balloon or some other decoration. There isn’t an “Office Response” per se, like a birthday card that everyone signs, although we will do that for Life Events (usually a new baby or a serious illness/bereavement). It’s not super democratic, but the general understanding is that if you want to celebrate your birthday in the office, YOU bring the goodies. I think this is better than trying to negotiate the minefield where it seems like some coworkers get celebrated while others get ignored.

      I think the fairest “official” implementation is a monthly cake (without names on the cake) and an email, “Hey, let’s celebrate all the July birthdays!” where people get to hang out for a few minutes and eat cake. No chance of accidentally leaving someone out, or calling out a birthday person who would prefer their birthday not be called out. All you have to do is make an order once a month. Maybe do donuts instead, if you have a good donut shop that also does vegan/gluten-free/etc donuts.

    13. ..Kat..*

      Are you willing to do all of the work for this – and to make sure no one’s birthday gets missed? Or are you creating work for someone else to do?

      Personally, I would leave it alone.

    14. Marion Ravenwood*

      At my old job, it depended on the person whose birthday it was as well as what their team wanted to do. Some people just got a card, others got a card and a present, still others did cake and sang ‘Happy Birthday’ in the kitchen.

      I now work for a much smaller organisation (around 10 people) and we’ve had two birthday cards go round in the week and a half that I’ve been here. One had a collection and is being bought a present (not sure what as a colleague is organising it) as well as a card, the other didn’t want a big deal made of it so we’re just sending him a card.

      I like the idea of a card for each person and either doing a birthday month celebration for everyone, or having people bring in their own cake/snacks on their birthday if they want. If you wanted to do a card, can you ask people to send in their message by email and you either paste it into the card or write it for them?

  102. Just Elle*

    Trying not to panic here, but despite consistently being rated top 10% in my rotational ‘class’ (they rank us all in order?) I’m effectively out of a job February 1.

    I’m in a rotational program for one department, but had arranged to do a special rotation into a different department to complete a project for them. I was super excited for the opportunity, and a director had pulled strings to make it happen. But we got new senior leadership, and they just cut funding to the other department. So now the other department is saying they can’t pay for me to do a rotation for them, but in my current department everyone else’s rotation is already settled and they’ve already selected someone to back fill me in my current rotation.

    Worst case, I’m out of a job. Best case, I get the absolute last choice rotation they weren’t even planning to put someone in.
    The kicker? I got an offer for a second round interview at an amazing job a few weeks ago, but turned it down because this rotation I was excited for had just been finalized, or so I thought.

    1. CM*

      Call the amazing job and tell them your circumstances have changed.

      Also, check with your manager to see if your understanding of the situation is correct. It would be extremely short-sighted of your company to let you go just because you can’t do this specific rotation at this time.

      1. Just Elle*

        Thanks. I did talk to my manager, he just got really sad for me and said he didn’t know what to do (this is about average). I tried to schedule a meeting with the rotation coordinator, but he blew me off at the last minute. I’m hoping he sticks to the meeting we rescheduled for this afternoon so I don’t have to stress all weekend.

        I thought about calling up amazing job but I’m having trouble phrasing it in a way that doesn’t sound like my own job doesn’t even value me so why should they? I declined the second interview by telling them I had another opportunity come up at my current company I was excited for.

        1. Annie Moose*

          You could say that the other opportunity fell through/isn’t happening after all or something like that, perhaps?

        2. The Ginger Ginger*

          Just tell them that opportunity fell through, and since that was the only reason you were staying, you’re looking to move on again. Ask if the positions is still open and if they would still be interested in considering you for it.

          That phrasing sounds like anything from budgeting to roadmap could have changed, and none of that reflects on you in any way.

    2. mr. brightside*

      I’ve never heard of this stuff before, it sounds really odd to me, like playing musical chairs with your job? So that if they take away a chair and there’s no slot left, they just fire you?

      1. valentine*

        Yes, this sounds like contracting. Who’s to say the current people will do well in their rotations? Why all the rotating? If you stay, is the accumulated knowledge useful or are you only in a place long enough to feel like you finished the entry level?

        1. Darren*

          My work does two 6-month rotations for all new technical staff across the multiple teams they would be qualified to work in to give them a more diverse experience (the company has multiple different technical areas) and to get a better picture of where their skills will help the company the best (which might be neither of the two team they’ve done rotations with).

          If any department/team were to be removed we’d find somewhere else for them to do their rotation though not just fire them.

          1. Just Elle*

            Mr Brightside – that’s exactly what I said, least fun game of musical chairs ever!

            Its not contracting, its a full time position at least in theory. We do 3 rotations, 1 year each, and then compete for final job placements. In my field, rotational programs are actually highly sought after because they’re seen as a way to increase exposure to a variety of business units, which is how they ‘fast tracks’ executives. Plus, it can help you decide where the right fit is, if you aren’t sure out of college. Personally, I hate it. I’m not right out of college so I know what I want to do, but am being forced to do everything else for 3 years first lol. And, like you said, chances are you’re going to be a poor fit for at least one of the rotations.

            I was able to get in touch with the rotation manager and he DOES have another opportunity for me, and its actually a great high visibility project, but its only half time so we’re working on figuring out how to fill the other half of my time. I don’t think the SOP is to just fire people who have rotations get messed up, but the timing has me on edge because they just announced layoffs.

  103. Lora*

    General question: What do you use for teleconferencing software, and do you like it?

    CurrentEmployer is in dire straits due to the capricious and fickle nature of Skype. We literally have to pay many thousands of $$ to fly people around to meetings in person because Skype is just that bad, it’s too embarrassing to use in front of clients. So I think senior management will be open to suggestions for replacing it, as they don’t like having to spend extra money either.

    I’ve heard Adobe Connect is pretty nice, but interested to hear what others think. Mostly at this point we just want to be able to share screens reliably and have conversations of multiple hours, at various and sundry international sites, without getting kicked off the network or randomly disconnecting or losing audio without warning.

    Thoughts? Comments?

      1. TheTallestOneEver*

        Agree that Skype for Business is just The Worst.
        Before that, we used GoToMeeting. On top of being a stable product, I thought the customer service we received from our account rep and tech support – in the rare cases we needed it – was amazing.

    4. Annie Moose*

      I’ve used Zoom, GoToMeeting, and WebEx. Honestly? They’re all fine. None of them are without their quirks and sometimes you just aren’t gonna have a good connection, but they all have worked pretty well. (OldJob was a large international corporation, so this includes teleconferences with people all over the world–I used to be on a project where some people were in Europe, some were in China, some were in Korea, and some were in the US, using WebEx, and our biggest problem was interference over the phone, but that’d happen with regular conference calls anyway)

    7. Catleesi*

      I’ve used WebEx and it had some nice features, I’ve been on the receiving end of Gotomeeting and it worked well too. I think one thing to consider when choosing a program is whether the client will have to download anything to access the meeting. Some of our clients at OldJob had issues with the standard prompt to download and run a component to access WebEx and it frustrated them – especially if their workplace only allowed certain people to download and install. If that is something that might impact your clients maybe consider something that is entirely web based.

      1. JessicaTate*

        I like Zoom the best. I’ve found it the most intuitive as a host and a participant. I liked Adobe Connect, but thought Zoom was an upgrade when we switched. I have a client that uses GoToMeeting, and it’s fine, but seems clunky. But if there’s any way to find out around your field / industry what’s most commonly used. The truth is, the more often you use any platform, the easier it becomes.

        And I’m not a tech person, but are you sure the issues with cutting off / dropping out are Skype’s fault vs. issues with internet speed/service? Skype is inferior to these others, but I never found dropping out to be a problem on their end. It was more on the user’s end.

    8. Llellayena*

      GoToMeeting works for us. Very responsive screenshare, easy to transfer control and multiple people can highlight things (in different colors) at once. If you’re looking for video conferencing, Goto seems to be ok, we don’t use it for that much. But definitely download from their website and NOT from the app store (very bad, non-responsive version in the app store).

  104. To Suit or Not to Suit*

    Long time lurker, first time poster!

    I’m in a final round of interviews with my first job after undergrad at a non-profit (thanks to the great tips I’ve read about interviews, thank-you notes, and the like). Now I need some advice on what to wear!

    I wore (my one) grey suit to the first in-person with a dress shirt. Should I wear it again with a different color shirt, get another suit, or wear business casual, like slacks, dress shirt, and a long-ish sweater coat? Or is that too casual?
    I’ve seen the awesome advice the AAM community has had to offer before, maybe it can help me look good for this final interview and land the job!

    1. CM*

      If buying another suit isn’t in your budget, wear the same suit with a different shirt.

      If the organization is casual and you’re a woman, you might get away with business casual, but it’s generally better to wear a suit. I think men are given less leeway when it comes to business wear.

    2. DrTheLiz*

      Wear the suit, switch up the shirt. Might be worth getting another suit if the office wears them and you get the job, but untill/unless I wouldn’t bother.

    3. Just Elle*

      Don’t go casual. Chances are literally no one will remember what you wore at the last interview, but they will notice if you go more casual.

      You can wear it with a different color shirt / accessories / hair style and likely be completely fine.

      Or, one thing I did when interviewing was wear my suit blazer over a structured dress for the second interview.

      Remember 99% of dressing for an interview is to make YOU feel confident, so if you’re going to be stressed about them noticing something off, its best to invest in something that won’t have you distracted in that way. Dress Barn and Kohls are affordable places to get dresses, since a dress isn’t as important to be perfectly tailored.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Never underestimate the power of a different shirt and tie (if you’re a gent) or a different shell and jewelry (if you’re a lady). Seriously. It works wonders, especially because your suit is grey and that’s a super neutral color.

      If you are a woman, you may wish to also think about changing out your shoes, but only if you wore something distinct to the first interview. Women seem to notice each others shoes a lot more than men do. I don’t know why, but we do.

    5. Minerva McGonagall*

      Wear the suit, but different shirt/shell and tie/necklace. If you do eventually want to get another suit, I got a great deal when a department store was going out of business so that could be a more budget-friendly option for you!

    6. To Suit or Not to Suit*

      Thanks All!

      For reference, the organization seems casual and I am a woman, but I’m sticking with the suit – I don’t want to risk looking to relaxed, like I know I have the job in the bag, so I’m dressing down.

      I’m going to get a new dress shirt to wear with it to have a pop of color for the next interview.

      I may switch up the shoes – I wore black Mary Jane flats at the last interview, and I have a really cute pair of lace-up black heels that would look nice, but they can be uncomfortable if I have to stand or walk long distances.

      2. Just Elle*

        Sounds great! Just be careful, sometimes the second round interview they want to give you a tour (depends on industry) so be prepared for walking.

  105. DrTheLiz*

    Well, per my advice request last week, I’ve got as far as the phone screen at the journal company. I’m hoping that the fast responses I’ve been getting are a good sign (I know, I know, don’t get my hopes too high…)

    (I’m excited. Nervous, but excited.)

  106. Junior Dev*

    I want to share a thing I successfully did with my co-worker in case anyone else finds it helpful.

    I started my new job a couple months ago. A few weeks in, I called a meeting with my co-worker to talk about working agreements on the software project we work on. I led by saying “this isn’t in response to anything you’ve said or done, it’s more an attempt to pre-empt some problems I’ve seen in past jobs.” We then went over a Google doc together with sections I had made like “code standards” and “communication methods” and discussed questions like “do we have any standards for variable names?” and “how do we know when a conversation about a pull request [code submission proposal] needs to move out of the comments and into some other venue?” We seemed to agree on most things but there was at least one thing where I framed something as a personal preference and he agreed to conform to it even though he didn’t care about it either way. Then we wrote down what we came up with.

    I think this worked because 1) I am only the second person on the project so I didn’t have to challenge an existing group dynamic 2) my coworker already likes and respects me and values communication in general. I think it would be great if teams created a document like this every time they started a project and had a new meeting to discuss possible changes every time a new co-worker joins. Doing it 3-4 weeks in is probably the best timing so the new person can begin to get a sense of what the work is like, and hopefully feel more comfortable speaking up.

    1. Just Elle*

      Thats great! We do something similar for new projects, but between boss and team lead. The boss fills out ‘commanders intent’ and the team lead fills out a ‘back brief’ with estimated project schedule and budget that includes a specific section for what is in scope and out of scope. This really helps squash scope creep and makes sure everyone has the same ideas.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      That’s awesome!

      I especially like the part where you admitted something was personal preference, and he agreed to do it that way even though he didn’t care. (Honestly, I think that’s the healthiest way to handle that sort of disagreement – if you don’t care, defer to the person who does.)

      I also really like having written coding standards – ours are in a wiki on our company’s private GitHub. Any of us can reference them, any of us can edit them (and GitHub will track the history), and we’ve got an easy place to point new hires to. Once in a while we’ll go through it as a team and update or change things as necessary.

  107. Copier Queen*

    OldBoss asked if I wanted to do some typing/desktop publishing for her on during non-work hours. I could use the extra money and she’s easy to please. Basically I’d be typing her handwritten documents in Word, formatting to look professional, adding page numbers, cover, etc. It would be super easy work and very similar to the work I did for her for 6 years, before she retired.
    Two questions —
    How would you charge for this (hourly would probably not be to my benefit because I’m a fast typist and can get through this sort of work quickly)?
    Do you foresee any pitfalls/potential problems?

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you should make sure whatever agreement you make is in writing and be certain of the various tax implications. Figure out how much time it would take, what your time is worth to you, and then add some. If you’re anything like me, you probably grossly undervalue your own time.

      As for what to charge, I would probably want to work on an individual project basis. After one project, see how you feel and if you want to continue. That way you’re not promising to this work forever, you’re just promising one project.

      1. valentine*

        If you go by project, define that in the contract so she doesn’t take advantage. Think about the worst-case scenario (You do 1,000 pages with no pay?) and write the contract to avoid it. Work on retainer and stick to stopping until it’s refilled.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Charge per page. Start it as a trial to make sure that you’re both good with how it’s working for you with a set date to re-evaluate. That will be your best opportunity to pull the ripcord if it’s not working right. Discuss how you’re going to be paid. Will it be on receipt of the digital docs, or would you have a weekly/bi-weekly/monthly payment for work done during that period?

      Make sure that whatever agreement you have is in writing. Have acceptance of each job with deadline due be in writing, with any deadline adjustments in writing. Make sure that you are writing up some form of official bill for payment, and keep scrupulous records of the finance side.

      Don’t let the work get too far ahead of the payment… if there is outstanding payment, make it clear that you can’t do additional work until you receive payment for the previous.

      Check how much you’ll need to set aside to pay your taxes on as a freelancer and make sure you actually set it aside so you haven’t spent it when it comes to tax season (you can send in quarterly, or at least you used to be able to, in order to keep it out of your bank account if you need it not to be there for whatever reason).

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d charge by the word, plus a formatting charge that takes into account the level of formatting requested and the number of pages. So a 10 page document where you’re just adding page numbers would have a different formatting value than a 6 pager with complicated columns/page breaks/bulletting/tables/etc, even if they had the same word count somehow.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Also – I’d assign a floor. So a project/request could never be less than $x, and the cost would increase from there based on the above factors. You’d probably also want to establish a written SLA (service level agreement) outlining how and in what state files should/could be delivered to you and what your typical turnaround time for a project would be assuming perfect conditions. May also want to outline in writing what kind of things (on her side) would delay a project and prevent you from meeting that SLA deadline. Like not providing all the files for a given project on time, or her assigning another project a higher priority. Since she’s the only one you’re doing this for, you may also want to say – I will devote X number of hours per week to this type of work, anything beyond that will be added to the queue for the following week (or incur $X expedition cost on top of main price if I’m asked and agree to exceed those hours) or whatever.

        And get all this in writing and signed

  108. animaniactoo*

    Slack question:

    My company is trialling using Slack… looking for info about how people use it in other companies and what makes it a useful tool. Or info about why it’s not the bees knees. Basically, any info at all from people who use it and are familiar with it?

    1. Just Elle*

      Coming from a tech savvy millennial, I find Slack to be exhausting and over complicated.
      That said, honestly its a terrible solution for us because we can’t put privileged information on it (and if you handle similar stuff, definitely be aware of that shortcoming). So its just exhausting trying to use Slack to talk around the problem until we all give up and move to email.

      1. Becky*

        We were not allowed to put privileged information into Slack until my company made our account a paid account instead of a free account.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oldjob used Slack and I looooooooved it. It wouldn’t work with my current job but I still I miss it. I worked in an agency setting so every client had its own channel, which was great for organization and posting updates specific to that client or asking questions or just general collaborating. It was also great to have channels for learning or new tools or industry-relevant content, or just a fun casual channel for people to post funny pics or share stories. There are a lot of useful tools and add-ons you can incorporate such as setting reminders for yourself, coordinating with other apps such as trello, and more! I’m happy to answer any specific questions you may have on Slack.

      Oh and if you haven’t discovered making your custom slackmojis, I highly recommend you look into that. There are even sites that have them ready for you to use (party parrot is a must have).

    3. Annie Moose*

      Very much depends on your team dynamics, I think!

      At my company, each team has one or more channels for their projects. We’re a software development company, so each team might have, for example, a general channel for casual chatting, a technical channel for asking questions or collaborating on technical solutions, and a channel specifically for discussion related to client meetings. A really small team might have one channel where they do _all_ of this, while a big team might have separate channels for each aspect of the project, channels for automated updates from various systems, etc.

      There are also a number of non-team-specific channels for various purposes. Of course there’s a general chat for cross-company conversations, but we also have a channel for general tech woes, one for company-wide announcements, and several for clubs/other discussion topics. (e.g. a book club channel, the board games night channel, the cat channel, and the travel channel)

      It’s very easy to create new channels in Slack, so I’d say don’t go overboard trying to organize it up front, just start with a few channels and expand from there as seems necessary. It’s pretty easy to adapt it later.

      1. Tara S.*

        I think it’s also better if most of your communication is internal. A lot of the pitches my office heard from the research labs that had started using Slack were about how it had almost eliminated the need for email, because they could just message each other. I tried to get our admin staff (my team) to use it, but at least 80% of our communication was with external people (external meaning people outside of our admin team). Slack is a closed environment (you can only chat with/send messages to people who have been added to your community), which meant there was still a lot of email. So then, Slack just became another app to check, and most of my coworkers/senior staff were NOT on board with that. I think a Slack environment works best when most of the people you email already are people on your team.

      2. Annie Moose*

        Other people have mentioned it being distracting–it absolutely can be in a large company or when people like to chat a lot. To save your sanity, leave channels you aren’t interested in, mute channels you only check occasionally, and turn off notifications unless you’re directly messaged or tagged. (you can do this on an channel-by-channel basis) It has a nice feature where you can set up a list of words that you want to be notified for–I have my name/nickname/common misspelling of my name as well as a couple of topics of particular importance to me.

        Another useful tip–in busy channels, especially if it’s a channel for discussing work topics, use threads to discuss a specific question or issue. This will hide it from the main channel while still making it easily accessible, and keeps conversations separate from each other.

        Oh, another thing, I keep thinking of handy things I use Slack for. Slackbot can send you or a channel reminders. Send “help” to it and you can get more details, but I have recurring reminders for me to input my time, remember Jeans Friday, stuff like that. You can also install bots to do various useful things; one I like a lot is the Meekan Scheduler, which integrates with my Google calendar (it also works with Outlook) and allows you to schedule meetings directly from Slack, check other people’s calendars, notify me when someone invites me to a meeting, remind me if I have an upcoming meeting… all sorts of meeting-related things. I love it.

    4. Becky*

      I love Slack! I really wish my company had not forced us to switch to Microsoft Teams because Teams is TERRIBLE.

    5. Slack*

      Slack is really useful for replacing regular brief email communications, like, this item is now ready for Becky’s approval. Our organization has a lot of those, and Slack lets us reduce the email clutter and keep everyone in the loop on things. We also use it for brainstorming and collecting information before moving ahead with projects. It’s also a nice water cooler and gives our remote team members an easy place to connect with those of us on site. And I can ask quick questions of anyone on staff (who happens to be online), or even share docs, files, etc.

    6. MsChanandlerBong*

      I love and hate Slack. Love it because it lets me get quick answers to questions, allows us to be more transparent (by posting info in the general channel so everyone can see it), facilitates screen sharing, and makes conference calls easier. Hate it because it is EXTREMELY disruptive. When we are really busy, I get hundreds of messages per day, all of which need an immediate response. It’s hard to get things done when that damn bell is constantly ringing.

    7. Youth*

      Noooooo. Not a Slack fan. I already have to keep my email open, so it doesn’t make sense to me to have Slack open, too. Anything that you can Slack, you can email.

    8. NACSACJACK*

      Not thrilled with Slack here either. It’s more info, more static than I need. And my fellow co-workers use to make casual comments on dedicated business comments such as “Hey its Hump Day” with an pic (yes!). People, we’re here to work, not look at cartoons or joke about it.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      I find it reasonably useful. We use it for a project that has members scattered over multiple employers on four continents (plus Hawaii), with channels for different parts of the project. It’s most useful as a stand in for things we’d discuss in person if we were all in the same place – questions about coding, “where is this file”, informal discussions about the best way to approach something, trouble shooting when testing stuff. And it has the advantage of being able to look back through the chat logs to reference previous discussions.

  109. Maggie Don't Two Step*

    I was recently promoted into a managerial role and am faced with managing an employee who although I like personally, but seems to be professionally immature. (She’s in her 30s and has been working in corporate offices for many years) She is very extroverted, which has come across as overly familiar or too casual. She doesn’t take criticism well (at all). She frequently shows her exasperation or annoyance with those she doesn’t like. She gets upset easily. (There has been crying) I have provided feedback a number of times and each time I feel exhausted by the effort of relaying areas for improvement in a way that won’t get an unproductive response. I constantly have to reiterate she’s not in trouble or provide an exhaustive explanation about why I’m asking for a change.

    My boss is very into professional development for staff and feels Patty has the potential to grow and evolve. I agree, but her behavior makes it very difficult to help her. I spend a lot of time before these meetings attempting to find the right balance between giving her the feedback directly, yet kindly. But i now feel like I’m on a hamster wheel and really don’t know if there will be an end to the stress of managing her. I honestly wonder whether it’s worthwhile to help her.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Can you start with the point that feedback gets an unproductive response and that it’s hampering her and a problem for you as her manager? Explain what a good response looks like and what you’d expect to see going forward when you discuss changes you need to see?

      1. valentine*

        I constantly have to reiterate she’s not in trouble or provide an exhaustive explanation about why I’m asking for a change.
        No and no. Ride out the crying. I assume malice, but, even if it’s not deliberate, her justifying, crying, and sulking leads to you not enforcing what you want. The coaching only works if her job’s in danger and there are benchmarks for her to meet to avoid firing.

        1. valentine*

          And you don’t have to entertain her justifications. Who cares why she did x when you need her to do y? Even in a court of law, you can demand silence or a binary response.

    2. Just Elle*

      Can you break your counseling up into tiny, pointed simple feedback?
      Instead of “Patty, can you work on your general casualness” can you unemotionally relay “Hey, in the meeting before you said XYZ and I’m not sure its the right setting for those kinds of remarks” or “I noticed you were quite talkative, I think if you tried to reduce chatting by about 10% the words you do say would be better received.”

      I think sometimes the extrovert / not good at feedback cycle can come when they know what they’re doing wrong but aren’t really sure what to do instead. So giving small actionable feedback will help her actually re-learn societal norms, and the comments will be so insignificant that she won’t tail spin into omg am I going to get fired for this.

      Also, stop sugar coating things. It’s not your job to manage her emotional response in this way. Just deliver the news like you would ask her to make copies, if she seems upset or starts crying you can offer one reassurance like ‘I’m just relaying an observation, its something I want you to work on but is not a Big Deal.” and then (the important part here) disengage, walk away, start typing, etc.

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        Part of the reason I posted this is because yesterday I gave her feedback on how to better communicate in group meetings after we had several group meetings. She gave me several reasons why she communicated as she did and when I told her I understood the reasons behind it, but in the future she should do X instead. She then argued and told me she thought she did do what I was suggesting, which then led into a more complex/lengthy description of what I was asking. This type of reaction happens frequently and typically ends with me telling her to give it a try and we’ll talk about it later if need be. Other reactions have been her sulking when I continue to explain what I need and she disagrees with me or just outright crying when I don’t soften it and tell her to just do something.

        1. fposte*

          It’s okay if she cries; don’t shape your message to avoid that happening. It’s not okay if she pushes back on every piece of feedback. Alison has had at least one and maybe more posts on employees who push back on feedback–I’ll find it and link it in followup. But in the mean time, remember that accepting feedback is part of her job, and she’s currently not doing part of her job properly. Managing that performance problem is absolutely within your remit.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, there are a bunch of relevant ones:

            https://www.askamanager.org/2014/01/how-to-manage-an-employee-whos-argumentative-when-i-correct-her-work.html

            https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/how-to-manage-a-difficult-employee-who-does-good-work.html

            https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/my-employee-disagrees-with-my-evaluation-of-his-performance.html

            https://www.askamanager.org/2014/05/my-low-performing-employee-cant-take-feedback-telling-coworkers-i-eloped-and-more.html

            https://www.askamanager.org/2012/04/employee-gives-me-the-silent-treatment-when-i-give-him-feedback.html

        2. animaniactoo*

          “I need you to understand that continuing to react this way is going to be a problem for your ongoing employment here.”

          Document to your boss your attempts to help Patty evolve and grow and what the response was. Because there is literally only so much you can do from your end.

          If she doesn’t understand how what she did is different than what you were seeking, she needs to approach asking for the difference as an attempt at seeking clarification, NOT a defense of what she did. She may need more information to see the different perspective… and you may need to break down WHY what she did was not what you were looking for (i.e. I can see how you would think that it fulfilled doing X, but it also involved Y which is ultimately detrimental to X so it did not work as well as it should have. That’s why I need you to focus on doing it in X2 way and then let’s discuss the difference you get in the response to X1 approach and X2). But she needs to ask from a stance where she was wrong and is open to changing it, not one where she is dug in on what she did before.

          Right now, your job is to tackle the unproductive response and put it on her to change it so that you can provide useful and actionable feedback that makes a difference.

          Also, questionable – is there a route to “There is not a penalty for getting it wrong at this point. There is only a penalty for not being willing to accept the possibility of having gotten it wrong and not being open to changing it.” for all matters that are not about how she responds to feedback in the first place?

    3. fposte*

      “I constantly have to reiterate she’s not in trouble or provide an exhaustive explanation about why I’m asking for a change. ”

      No, you don’t. “Patty, it’s important in this job that you be responsive to feedback. I’m willing to hear a different opinion sometimes, but I need you to be able to accept feedback without arguing or demanding justification. Do you think you can do that?” And then that’s your callback point for future coaching–“As I said, Patty, I need you to accept feedback without demanding justification”; “No justification requests, Patty, remember?” Similar for asking if she’s in trouble–“Patty, coaching and feedback are a normal part of the job. ‘In trouble’ really isn’t a measure here–I’m talking to you about things I’d like you to improve on, which is part of the job.” If she cries, hand her the Kleenex box and carry on.

      But do make sure you’re as specific as possible with that feedback. Not just “Sometimes you’re too casual,” but “You said ‘WTF!’ to our biggest client on Monday. Don’t do that.”

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Excellent advice. You’re treating this as a conversation, but it really isn’t. You tried the kindly approach, I think it’s time to switch to direct.

      2. Tara S.*

        +1. The whole “being able to take feedback well is part of your job” is a thing I never saw spelled out until AAM, but it makes a lot of sense and can be a great framing device for managers.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Everyone else has given you good advice that you should follow 100%, but I also want to address the lack of alignment with your boss. Make sure that your boss has all the same info you do — it may change her perspective if she realizes the extent of the problem you’ve described here.

      1. Maggie Don't Two Step*

        Thanks Alison. My boss is aware of Patty’s reaction to feedback (and has experienced it as well). But, it’s probably important to note that my boss enjoys being a mentor (one of the reasons she’s a good boss and why I’ve worked here for 5 years) and I think she has more patience with these types of reactions than I do. So on one level, she absolutely does understand the difficulty in managing Patty, but on the other we’re not completely in sync with how to deal with her. I would be less gentle with her if I felt I had a mandate to be so. And although, I was/am willing to try the kind approach, now that I’ve experienced this for some time, I probably will need to have a follow-up conversation with the boss to discuss what is (or not) working.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You could try framing it to your boss as “We’re really doing her a disservice by allowing her to think this is okay. If she goes to her next job thinking that, she’s likely to be summarily fired. We’d be doing her a service by making it clear to her now that it’s not.”

        2. pcake*

          It doesn’t seem like your boss is the one doing the mentoring to me – your boss seems to want you to do the mentoring. And no one can mentor someone who refuses to take advice, argues all the time and pushes back on everything, then has emotional outbursts.

    5. NACSACJACK*

      Ask her directly – Why do you want this job? Do you really want to work here? If so, these behaviors are unacceptable. I appreciate that we all tie up a lot of our ID in our job and that being passionate about your work is good, but that passion can get out of hand and be detrimental to you. Literally, say that to her – point out her behaviors are out of sync in the professional world and that she needs to evaluate whether it is good for her to continue. Its a wake up call, trust me.

  110. she was a fast machine*

    My old grandboss(exec director) just messaged me asking what I would charge to come back and help them prep for an audit/national org review they have coming up. This job was a toxic hellmouth (underfunded non-profit), but a good 80% of my misery was due to a horrible manager who threw me under the bus at every opportunity. I’ve been gone almost three years and that manager finally quit last year and a good percentage of my team has turned over, so while people higher up still know me(the entire board, the afore mentioned ED, business manger, etc.), I think only a couple of people still on my old team would even know who I was.

    I’m torn. Extra money is always good, though I have no idea what I’d charge for my time, and the ED has always been a lovely person to me, aside from refusing to manage my horrible boss(which now that I say it, proves she wasn’t all that lovely to me, I guess). I like the org and their mission, but I honestly don’t know how much help I’d be after three years away, working with an entirely new team, on a very short term basis, for an important review.

    I guess typing it all out gives me all the answer I want…but how can I reply without burning a bridge with the ED and the org? She(and her board) has significant weight in the non-profit world here and having her down as a reference I feel is good for me. I already tried to tactfully dance around with my schedule being difficult but she brought up one weekend I do actually have free, and I hate doing the whole “well, I just don’t have time for you” thing. My ideal goal is to out-price her, as they always told me I was worth more than they could pay me when I worked there, which was true, but I honestly know that if they need this work bad enough they’d pay a pretty steep price for it. But what even is a rational price to charge to come back and help review a group’s files and documentation for a review? I don’t know. I’m at a loss. It’s a shame because I’d be happy to leave this job in the rear view mirror for good and also be able to have a good relationship with the ED and boardmembers at the same time.

    1. CatCat*

      I think you’re making it worse by dancing around it instead of just saying no.

      “Ex-grandboss, thank you for thinking of me. Unfortunately, I don’t have the capacity to take it on.”

      1. she was a fast machine*

        This is definitely true. I’m not a very confrontational person it seems. I’ve already once gone and volunteered some time to help them out with something unrelated because I felt passionate about it, but I really want to just be done with that phase in my life.

        I want to just tell her that after thinking it over, I don’t think I retain the necessary knowledge to assist with the program after having been gone for almost 3 years, and while I value the program I think that my ability to provide assistance has ended. But that sounds really formal for the casual culture there. Maybe I can casual it up.

        1. CatCat*

          I think you’re overthinking this because you’d previously had to navigate this place as a toxic hellmouth. That can really warp your sense of normal and how to interact. You mention that you’re not confrontational, but this isn’t a confrontation! You’re just professionally saying no and not leaving room for further discussion :-)

          You don’t want to “over explain” because if they’re very eager here, they’re going to revisit and see if they can work around the problem (e.g., if you say you’re not qualified anymore to do the work, they would just disagree with you and say they have no concerns about that).

          You mentioned being worried about this costing you a reference. The ED would have to be an unprofessional, vindictive person for that to happen. Whether you can work there now should have no bearing on speaking of the quality of your work in the past.

          1. valentine*

            Just say you can’t. You can be as free as you want to be. Do not return to this abuser. No more volunteering. The mission will survive without you, but if it doesn’t? Too bad. It’s not worth your health or the horror of returning to the scene of the crime.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I appreciate everything that you’ve said and the offer. Unfortunately, while I do have that weekend free I badly need that free time to be able to relax and be able to manage my stress level. Part of my discomfort is that I’m really not sure that I’d be able to take it on easily given my lack of recent experience with the org and the team that’s in place now. I’m sorry, but I just don’t have the mental capacity to take it on right now. I do hope it all goes well for you!”

        2. irene adler*

          If you know of someone who can do the job, might suggest ED contact them. That can help with the “no can do- sorry” scripts offered above. But only if the person you suggest is someone you are confident can do the work.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        It’s probably too late, but don’t say you have that weekend free! Just say you can’t do it. Don’t go into detail about what you plan to do with your time. Just say, you have plans. Your plans can be taking care of yourself or binge watching Game of Thrones, or sleeping in and cuddling with pets. But they don’t need to know and you don’t need to explain yourself or justify why you can’t or don’t choose to do what they are requesting.

        Good luck and I hope you were able to navigate this without too much angst!

    3. Anon attorney*

      Is there an amount of money that would be enough for you to take this job on – however ridiculous it might feel to suggest it? If so, putting that forward will either result in them saying no, or saying yes and paying you an acceptable amount. (Get it in writing or ideally in advance.)

      If literally no amount of money would induce you to do it, then you don’t need to discuss your schedule with them in detail, you can just say “unfortunately I don’t have capacity to do this to the standards we’d both expect within the timeframe for the review, so while I’m very flattered you asked me, I need to decline.” I have found when turning down freelance work that making it about not being able to do the job to the level of quality in the time/budget available can sweeten the decline and makes one sound conscientious and professional. For example I would rarely if ever take a case that goes to trial in a week (or at least not if the trial couldn’t be postponed) because doing something badly in those circumstances is worse than not doing it.

      Good luck!

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yeah I came here to say this too. I’d ask for a ludicrous amount of money (think of the most absurd figure you can think of and double it) and if they agree to it, well the toxic manager is gone and now you’ve launched yourself a consulting business. If they say no, well you didn’t really want to do it anyway so no harm, no foul.

  111. StellaBella*

    I had an interview on Wednesday and have another one on Tuesday (2 different firms). I am excited about the first interview as it is with a startup and would be fantastic to work for I think, even tho I would wear 5 hats. It has good pay tho which is what I need. Second one we will see, it is known as a toxic place and has horrible, multiple-years’ glassdoor reviews. So…. going to interview for the practice first and foremost. I should know more next week about both and next steps if I get to advance or not to next round of interviews at the startup. Feels good to be getting interviews after one other in mid-November where they ghosted me completely (it was odd, really odd!).

  112. LALAs*

    Currently in the process of hiring a new assistant. Ultimately not my call, but I have a lot of input. One candidate is good, nervous, but personable. He is scheduled to come back in to meet with my boss next week. He isn’t the front runner, but I would be happy to work with him.

    The problem is that his handshake is bad. Really, really bad. He puts his hand out like he is going to shake it but the dead-fishes it. Both myself and the other person who interviewed him this week were alarmed at how bad it is. Should I say something to him?

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      If you hire him, sure. But not if you don’t. I’d be weirded out by getting feedback about my handshake as part of a rejection.

    2. Aurion*

      I wouldn’t, and I say that as someone who has a pretty firm handshake.

      If he’s hired and you become his boss you might be able to ask him offhandedly, but there could be a wealth of reasons why (arthritis, injury, just the way he is etc). No matter what his answer is, if he even gives you one, I don’t think you can judge him for it. And as an interviewer I don’t think you have the standing to ask that question of an interviewee.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I…don’t see why this is something to be alarmed about? I could see it maybe being relevant if he was being hired for sales or fundraising, where in-person impressions are critical, but why does an office assistant need a firm handshake? Honestly as a candidate I would be really weirded out to know that people were judging me on my physical body parts – plus, like Aurion said, his lack of grip could be due to a medical condition. Unless there’s some other context that explains why a good handshake is essential for this role, I’d just try to leave this out of the decision and focus on his job-related qualities.

    4. Amber Rose*

      Speaking as someone who would rather swallow a live fish than shake someone’s hand and who spends a lot of time in a culture where shaking hands is unheard of, please consider that handshakes are a really unimportant thing and judging people on them is basically the same as judging them on how they tie their shoes.

      How often are you really anticipating shaking this guy’s hand? Does it REALLY matter that much?

      1. LALAs*

        Required isn’t the right word, but there is a fair amount of handshaking. There are some “front facing” parts of the job that include greeting high-end clients and that usually involves a handshake.

        I have a feeling it is something my boss will focus on.

        1. Tara S.*

          If the candidate is otherwise good, this is an easy skill to work on once hired. Don’t let it drag too much focus.

          1. valentine*

            What is dead-fishing?

            Hoover used to meet the new agent class so he could fire, on the spot, anyone with a clammy handshake.

    5. Drax*

      This is a soft skill that is teachable, if you want to work with this guy I would probably say “just a heads up but the boss you’re interviewing places a weird amount of weight on a good handshake when meeting people” and leave it at that. You’ve warned him without insulting him. But if you aren’t sold on this guy, I wouldn’t say anything. It would only be appropriate if this guy was The One for the job and this was the only hang up.

      And I get it, where I live a good handshake is important – my boss actually taught me in my first job. There’s certain industries and areas where some people read a lot into the handshake so it’s an obnoxiously important first impression thing. Especially as I’m a lady and look a lot younger than I am, it was doubly important for me to get it right in order to be taken seriously by my male counterparts 25+ years my senior.

      1. LALAs*

        It is literally one of the first things I remember my dad teaching me as a kid – “got to have a firm handshake.”

  113. Seeking Second Childhood*

    A few weeks ago I wrote in with a request for people to clean their white board before leaving a job.
    I have something to add to that list of things people should do — back up their working files in a place that won’t get auto-deleted when the employee’s userid gets deleted by corporate.

    I’m looking forward to a fun lot of re-work because someone didn’t realize that “my documents” wasn’t going to be preserved.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t have realized that, because our system doesn’t work anything like that. Maybe a guide for outboarding should be created to give people a checklist?

    2. animaniactoo*

      Also, maybe a chat with your IT department? I still have access to the “desktop” of the co-worker who was shown the door two years ago. His entire hard drive was backed up by IT and can be accessed at need.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      Are people trained during onboarding that they must save documents to the network and not the My Documents folder? If not, they should be. Also, IT could change the path on the My Documents folder to the user’s private folder on the network as a safeguard. That way if people save to My Documents, it’s actually going to the network folder. We did this at a previous company because so many people would just save to My Documents and then it would be lost, either when their user ID got deleted, or the computer blew up, or whatever else.

      1. Windchime*

        This is how it works at my office. You still see “My Documents” as an option, but when you save something there, it’s actually on your personal section of the network drive.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      All of those things sound so very reasonable.
      Unfortunately after my former manager retired, we were told that everything linked to a username is wiped automatically because that could be personal — even though the helpdesk team had specifically told us to move all our work under the username so it’s more easily backed up for migrating to new laptops. And apparently those are the guidelines my recently departed counterpart had been following.
      If I get hit by a bus the group will retain access to my work — I keep it in c:\work, and only personal stuff goes into the userid folder. This was drilled into me by my first manager at this company who wanted us to be able to share work seamlessly, and I never saw a reason to change the habit. (New laptop coming? I move my work folder to the server and from there to the new machine.)
      Onboarding…well that’s one of the drawbacks to this company.

      1. animaniactoo*

        So what you’re saying is that your IT department is giving bad “standard practice” directions?

        Cuz if so… I would kick that upstairs STAT.

      2. Nessun*

        We hold onto computers for staff for a standard period before wiping them. If, in that period, we discover there is work missing from the client servers, we fill in a form to request access to the ex-employee’s machine. The request stipulates exactly what information we’re searching for, and when approved by the high level IT and a C-suite, there must be an IT manager overseeing the review of the machine, to monitor the use of the computer as it’s checked for the relevant data.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In jobs where this has been an issue for me, it hasn’t been my job to back up my working files … that’s on IT. I figure it’s on me to keep everything neat and logically organized. But if IT is going to wipe my computer (and note it’s not “my” computer, it’s the company’s) without having my working files backed up separately, that’s not my concern.

    6. Marion Ravenwood*

      So much this. In my old job, our team’s quarterly planning spreadsheet was saved on my old manager’s OneDrive – meaning that when she left and IT wiped her account, the whole thing vanished into the ether. The memory of losing all that is why, when I left, I made sure that *everything* remotely useful was put into my department’s shared folders on Sharepoint!

  114. AyBeeCee*

    A friend of mine recently said he went to work with head cold because he didn’t have enough sick time (just over two days worth) and wanted to save it in case he got the flu or something in the next few months. He was worried that if he used up all of his sick time he’d have to use vacation time rather than just taking it unpaid – he was fine with the idea of taking unpaid time as long as his vacation hours were untouched.

    I was curious what the AAM crowd would think, given the recent post on sick time.

    1. AyBeeCee*

      I forgot to add he’s using a few hours here and there for mental health appointments, so his sick time pool is probably going to stay flat for a while.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      He gets only two days for the whole year?! If I were in that situation, I’d probably come to work sick too. And if the person who made that policy were working that day, I’d try to cough on all of her belongings.

      1. AyBeeCee*

        Sorry if I wasn’t clear, over the year he would accumulate two weeks but he currently only has two days. I think (partly guessing here) he earns a couple hours every two weeks but his appointments are burning what he’s earning at about an equal rate.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      If it was genuinely just a cold (sniffly and sneezy) and he was doing a good job of containing it (sanitizer, using and disposing of tissues, etc), I don’t think I’d be too mad, especially if he can’t work from home. But if he was genuinely sick and looked and sounded awful, I’d be none too pleased. I’m still salty that 6+ years ago my coworker came in looking and sounding like death because he “didn’t want to waste a sick day”, and I got so sick that I ended up in the emergency room and had to take a week off of work. Thanks jerk.

      (I of course understand that these issues are caused by companies not offering enough sick time or work from home options, which my old company failed at in both regards, but it’s really hard to shake your fist at capitalism when you’re barfing yourself unconscious with your coworker’s words ringing in your ears.)

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t blame him for going to work! A cold isn’t that big a deal and I too save sick time for emergencies.

    5. INeedANap*

      I think that if he was contagious, AND if he was okay financially with taking unpaid time, he should have clarified the policy before coming in sick.

      If he didn’t have an option, I don’t blame him, but I would blame him for coming in contagious and not bothering to check to see if he had an option at all.

      This is also contingent on how much sick time the company gives; did he have so little because that’s all the company gives? Because that’s the company’s fault, not his, if that is the case.

    6. Someone Else*

      Where I’ve worked you need to be completely out of PTO before you can take unpaid leave, so the plan to not touch the vacation time if it came to it wouldn’t actually work in those places, but may be doable where your friend works. I’m not sure. If he’s accruing more sick but just burning through it steadily his choice may have been mathematically sound in the moment, but it’d still probably bug me that he came in and contaminated everything when he did have time available to not do that. Not annoyed enough to make a brouhaha, but I would be irritated.

  115. DJ*

    Just want to vent a bit. I found out that I wasn’t getting a job I had a verbal offer for. The company is undergoing a hiring freeze (I suspect due to the government shutdown). It sucks, I really like the company and the pay was double my current salary. The hiring manager said that she’d contact me when the freeze is over. While it is nice to know that it has nothing to do with me, I’m so ready to leave my current position!

    To top it off, I’m going to have to go to a conference that I hate (my boss thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread).

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Aww, that sucks. I hope they come back around. I guess the only side benefit is that you now know demonstrably that you’re worth double your current salary, so you can take that to heart as you continue to job search.

  116. DolphinFeels*

    Hey everyone! I’m looking for positive stories of working in HR.
    My current place of employment has me feeling like I’m sitting in the toxic stew, so I’ve been looking for the right opportunity for my next step. However, this is not my first HR role (I’ve been doing this sort of work for about 10 years now), and some of the things currently bugging me are issues I’ve encountered in previous jobs. We’re talking lack of care about compliance, overstepping boundaries, disrespecting employees, etc. I’ve worked in different industries (non-profit, for-profit, NGO, education, tech start ups), so I can’t even chalk it up to ‘oh, that’s just how it is in Retail!’ or something like that. I’m beginning to worry that no matter where I go, these are problems I’m going to continue to encounter and it’s the field itself that is the problem. Or maybe my expectations to do good work (and accurately, correctly, and efficiently!) are too high. So, if you work in HR and have any positive stories where you didn’t feel like you were violating your ethics or feeling icky, I’d appreciate it!

    1. TeapotSweaterCrocheter*

      Wow, no positive stories yet! (Unless I didn’t refresh soon enough before I decided to post).

      I don’t think you’re going to get the toxic stew everywhere you go – perhaps you’ve had a string of bad luck? My last job in HR was, while not perfect, really great. I had the best manager I’d ever had, and she cared about doing things legally and doing the best she could for the company and the employees (which can be a very hard balance to maintain, especially since we were in Labor Relations!) She was direct and could make very tough decisions but was as fair as she could be. She gave me a lot of autonomy but a lot of support when I needed it.

      I do not think it is HR itself that is the problem. At the very least, everyone I’ve met who works in HR who has been trained in some way (college, professional development classes, certifications) cares about their work, cares about compliance, boundaries… all the things you list. Have I ever grumbled about an employee? Sure – but in a way that feels more akin to gallows humor among doctors, than actually disrespecting the person themselves. Most HR folks I’ve met feel and act the same way. Now, those people who end up in HR with no training and then never get trained? Disasters. Non-compliance all the way. Please, please, train your HR folks! Even your admins!

      And, finally, the culture you’re describing – when I’ve seen it that bad, it’s not just HR that’s the problem. Compliance comes from the top. If your day-to-day operations are running the show, and HR is feeling pressure to do whatever is necessary to prop up the business, then you’ll start seeing even the HR folks cut corners.

      Hope this is helpful overall :)

      1. DolphinFeels*

        Thank you for your feedback! This is a helpful and refreshing perspective. And I definitely concur on the point about training.. what a hot mess people who were thrown in to HR can be, mostly because higher ups simply don’t appreciate that HR is far more than just being an admin who gets new hire paperwork in orser *grumble*

  117. Toxic waste*

    New boss and my coworker “Wakeen” have bonded and are now best friends. Wakeen is extremely nice, but a major gossip. Wakeen will say to me, “Boss said that you’re not doing this fast enough.” Now, Wakeen is only my co-worker, so should he be saying this? Also, why is new boss badmouthing me to Wakeen?

    New boss also talks down to me and constantly questions everything I do. New boss said to me, “I’m not picking on you.”

    I’m already looking to leave, but is there anything that I should do? How do I handle this?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Depends on why Wakeen is saying it to you – is he trying to give you a head’s up so you can do it faster? Or is he just tattling?

      I would respond to these kinds of sallies with something along the lines of “Hmmm. Boss hasn’t said anything to me about that. Is there a reason you’re telling me instead of her?”

      1. irene adler*

        Or is he gaslighting you? Trying to make you question your work or abilities to do the work.
        Put it right back at him just as animaniactoo suggested.

      2. Tara S.*

        +1, and if your coworker gets smug about “I’m just trying to help you,” you can respond with a “ok, well, I prefer to talk with Boss about that kind of stuff. I have to get back to work now.”

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      My goodness. If you’re set on leaving, and you don’t mind dinging your relationships, I would be very tempted to say something like, “I’m hearing a lot of second hand information from Wakeen about my job performance. I’d love it if you and I could address those things directly, do you have time to sit down and discuss?” This would have the side benefit of putting boss on notice that Wakeen is blabbing so maybe boss will can the gossip at the source. A good boss wouldn’t be doing this though, so it’s just as likely they’ll just tell Wakeen to stop telling you what they’re saying, which will also probably make Wakeen mad at you for tattling.

      1. Drax*

        but is Wakeen being mad a bad thing if he just stops talking to you? Cause this sounds like an excellent way to call them out politely while having the benefit of making Wakeen stop talking about it… But I think you have to be prepared for new boss to say he does have time to talk to you and laying out a bunch of things you’re doing “wrong” (in quotations as wrong is sometimes very subjective)

    3. Tonya*

      This happened at my current workplace and it was terrible. Both were bullies and gossips so I commiserate with you. The second-hand information about our team’s performance and feeling like they are always strategizing against you. After a year and half of it, their relationship imploded and both went running to HR over every little thing the other one did. After an HR investigation, my boss got fired and now coworker is even worse thinking she has the power to get people fired. I don’t really have advice except keep looking for jobs. I wish I would have been more direct with my boss but it’s hard when they control your paycheck. I like Sloan’s wording.

  118. FedCourtFiasco*

    I spent 16+ years working for a FEDERAL COURT of the United States. The last 8 of those years was toxic as the court executive was having numerous affairs and sexual exploits with at least two direct subordinates. The HR Manager knew of the misconduct and helped cover it up. One of the subordinates became my supervisor and made my department a wreck. I was terminated for trying to speak up about the misconduct. I currently have pending ethics complaints against the court which is slowly making its way along. I am having trouble finding a new job. I think partially because I was terminated by a “court” and partially because that same HR Manager is giving out negative references of me. I’m to the point of giving up. How do I address this with potential employers?

    1. WellRed*

      For one thing, you need to try and get the kibosh put on negative references from that manager. Since you worked in the court system, I assume you know a lawyer who could send some sort of cease and desist letter? Especially as it sounds like you were fired in retaliation.

      1. FedCourtFiasco*

        I have spoken to a few lawyers. Most don’t want to get involved and possibly face retaliation by federal judges that they may come before in future proceedings, thus hurting their bottom line. I suppose that I could threaten legal action but then again, it’s against a federal court.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Do you have proof of all these shenanigans? If so, and this might be a disastrously bad suggestion on my part, but could you insinuate that you would go to the media with this (I’m sure a reporter in your area would LOVE this story….even if it’s only a newspaper) if they don’t start giving you a neutral reference? Considering the folks you’re dealing with (people well versed in the law vs. “regular” people), I have no idea if they might try to turn this around on you, so again this might be a terrible suggestion. Also, I’m not familiar with the federal courts, but I feel like there must be some oversight board/committee/person somewhere above the judge. If the judge had been the one engaged in the shenanigans, who would that complaint go to? If you can find that out, I’d focus your efforts there, or perhaps find out who the HR reps supervisor/grandboss is and take it to them.

      I am soooo sorry you’re dealing with this. I can only imagine how frustrated you must feel, especially after so many years of dedicated service.

  119. unstrategic planner!*

    Hi there! I’m in a position where I’m a lower-level employee with the potential to at least draft out our nonprofit’s five-year strategic and staffing plan within the next few days – obviously, mine won’t be the final word, but it’s a weakness of ours that I’ve been advocating for patching, and our group is very small. Does anyone have any resources for how to think about strategic planning and staffing for a small, nimble organization that needs to grow and scale?

    1. mr. brightside*

      1) What’s the goal of the organization?
      2) What’s it currently like?
      3) What’s the gap between 1 and 2?
      4) What kind of stuff do you need to fill that gap? More expertise, more people, more resources?
      5) How can you get that stuff? If it requires more money, what are you going to do to get more money?
      6) What kind of trainings will you need? Do you need management training, skills trainings, financial trainings? Are you going to want to move current employees to having more skills? How do you get those trainings? How do you fund them?
      7) Who do you want to work with in the future? What partnership opportunities are there to help you grow? Who might you want to work with or alongside 5 years from now?

      1. unstrategic planner!*

        Thanks so much for this – do you know if there’s anything kicking around out there about hiring plans?

    2. Tara S.*

      Brightside has some good considerations. I would also say google “SMART goals,” the idea of them gets tossed around A LOT by leadership in orgs I’ve been in, and in my grad program.

      1. unstrategic planner!*

        Oh, I’ve heard of those but I hadn’t thought of using quite that presentation for our goals. I’ve read a lot of material on these kinds of things, but without putting it in practice I can’t always mine out what’s useful.

        Thank you!

    3. AnotherAlison*

      The strategic plan should also present and consider your KPIs. In my business, these are things like revenue, net gain, and staff utilization. I would say goals should focus around this.

      A strategic plan generally includes a market analysis. Describe what lines of business you have and the trends impacting the business. You can do a SWOT analysis of your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. You can also do a competitor analysis. From this process, you get to mr. brightside’s gaps and can develop the initiatives you want to implement. These need to be focused. You can’t have 15, or nothing will get done.

      1. unstrategic planner!*

        Huh. I’ve never seen that adapted for the nonprofit world – I’ll need to think it through, but I can see value there. We do have a unique value proposition. Thanks for the food for thought!

  120. KD*

    I was talking with a friend who has the same job title/description that I do who works for another company. I found out that she makes 15k more than I do, as she got her job after a law was passed that employers cannot require candidates to ask previous salary. I have a couple other data points that indicate this is the fair market rate for this work.

    So I want to ask for a raise and I’ve read the guide to asking for a raise. I have greater accomplishments I can point to as to why I’m worth more money, but should I flat out say “I’ve also discovered the market rate for this job is x”

    Is that something I can say?

    I’m also worried on timing because my company has essentially been sold to another, and I don’t know whether to ask before or after we find out what will happen to our jobs/company. I worry that either way this is going to prevent either company from addressing raises, so should I ask now regardless of whether it’s bad timing?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This is very tricky TBH. You’ve already proven to the company that you’re willing to work for X amount, and it’s hard for them to swallow giving you a lot more for the same work. You may have an easier time just getting a new job at the salary you think someone else will pay you, or else angling to get promoted/taking on new responsibilities and making a more ambitious ask at that point. This is based on my experience but maybe others have better ideas.

    2. fposte*

      If administrative decisions are genuinely in limbo right now, I wouldn’t bother asking. Do you have any idea of the time frame before new administration is in place?

      I think if it weren’t for the company sale thing it would be fine to ask for a raise to get up to what you can demonstrate is local market rate–you may not get what you ask for, since $15k is likely a big percentage, but you might get a raise that would keep you happy there, at least for a while (or let you know you need to start looking). But unless your boss is responding to uncertainty by spending money while she can, I’d hold off on the query.

    3. Friday afternoon fever*

      I wouldn’t phrase it as ‘I’ve discovered the market rate for this is x’ since it can be read as ‘I didn’t do market rate research when I first applied/accepted’

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      If true, that sucks. But I swear it’s survivable even if it does happen. It feels like the Worst Thing In the World, but almost everybody bounces back from it and ends up in a new position eventually if they want one, and for some people it really helps them realize what they want / what they’re good at. If you were fired for cause, it’s good to have a tidy story you can use in future job searching (I had this problem / here’s what I learned from it and why it won’t be an issue in this role). If you were laid off, people will be understanding. Good luck!

  122. Is This Important?*

    How important is a job description? I haven’t had mine updated since I started in this position (inter-company transfer not totally new workplace) 2 years ago, since then I took on several roles my boss who has since left used to do plus some completely new extra weekly/daily tasks. Some can fit under the vague-ness of some of the bullets in my current JD but quite a few tasks are way outside. At first I didn’t mind because some of the tasks are things I’m interested in but those tasks are rapidly taking up a lot of my time + usually require overtime and it’s starting to feel a bit like maybe I’m letting myself being taken advantage of. Should I ask about updating my JD to reflect the tasks I do or are JDs really not actually important? Should I be asking for a different JD (and/or job title)? This is my first full time position so I’m not really sure.

    1. Stephanie (HR Director)*

      JDs are really important to HR because they set the scope of the position, which is usually how salary is determined. It’s also used to define the essential functions of a role in case a request for accommodation is made under the ADA. It’s often used to draft the job posting to recruit for the position. In unionized environments, it can be even more important.

      I would make a request to have the job description/title reviewed for updates because your functions have changed so much, and also ask for a raise. Other than raise, though, your day-to-day won’t really be affected. The effects are mostly behind the scenes.

      1. Is This Important?*

        Thank you! This is a great explanation. I will definitely go through my current job description and my actual job task list so I can bring those both to talk to my boss about adjusting the JD and requesting a raise. I know, due to the way my company is structured, there may be a good chance my boss’ hands are tied but there is no hurt in asking.

  123. Amazing Mike*

    How do you contact internal folks about jobs or networking?

    I work for a company that’s big on internal networking, to the extent that everyone I work with has told me to ask about any internal jobs I might apply for so they can see if they have any connections to the hiring managers. This is not at all how I’m used to job hunting but apparently it’s normal here to let people know you’re looking and get help with it.

    I’m really interested in moving to any of several overseas offices we have but haven’t seen any openings for my kind of work in the months I’ve been watching the postings. I’ve started seeing some (out of my wheelhouse) postings in very desirable city where I didn’t know we had an office at all. No one I work with has any connections to the management listed, however, and no one is quite sure what kind of operations happen at that office. One did warn me that getting hired to a new team overseas is much more difficult vs being transferred.

    Still, I want to know if there’s any opportunity here. I don’t feel comfortable cold-contacting them about jobs that don’t exist, but maybe I should? Is there a way to say “hey, I’m interested in relocating, would you be willing to talk to me about your office and team” without sounding like a total and complete dumbass? They very well may not have anyone doing the work I do there— they’re hiring for teapot structural testers, for ex, where as I’m a teapot design operations person… Sort of (this analogy is not great!). So this office may be a group that cannot possibly make use of me, but there seems to be no way to find out other than asking them. My company does not have any way to look anything like this up internally, just people’s contact info. I can’t locate any more info through any other channel, I’ve asked around.

    Similarly, when introduced to people in my current office that work for groups with global counterparts, is there a way to ask about the possibility of relocating in the future without setting off people’s alarms? Many groups send people around the world, but many do not. I want to gauge what teams might open this opportunity for me, but it feels Not Great to ask right off the bat. This is the route that my coworkers have said is the best to try WRT relocating, so it’s something I want a sense for when looking at new teams, but it’s hard to ask about your exit before you’ve even gone there.

  124. I’m actually a squid*

    I have an embarrassingly basic management question. I’m the manager at a small, board-run non-profit and I have one direct report. She’s not amazing but the job has a lot of responsibilities and pays only $10 an hour and, in my estimation, that’s exactly what we’re getting out of her. She’s rather scattered with most tasks, especially those that require any sort of critical thinking. She’s also not at all self-directed. We have things that always need to be done – dusting, straightening, getting supplies ready – and she won’t think to do those tasks unless directly asked. Once asked she’s right on them, she just won’t think to do it on her own. On the other hand, she’s amazing with transcriptions and is tearing through a big project we’ve had in the pipes for too long. So while I’m not thrilled with her, I’m satisfied enough and don’t mind continuing to work with her to minimize mistakes made from her scattered way of doing things and finding something that works to help her be more self-directed.

    The problem is our board – I didn’t realize this until just now but I think they’re hitting bitch-eating-crackers with her. I think some is perception – direct report is young and does live up to the stereotype of having her phone near her at all times. I’ve allowed it because our board members are far worse with their phones when working and I strongly believe in leading by example and I’ve come to see that’s a blind spot for me in this case. I also don’t think they really ‘get’ how low the pay is for the responsibility level. We had a tough time filling the role after our previous person left and I doubt it’ll be any easier next time. They seem to want a seasoned professional but we can’t pay for that.

    So now I’ve got a problem – I have a direct report who thinks she’s doing fine and a board who wants to fire her. I need to talk to her but how do I start since I don’t agree with the board in this? I don’t want to make it an “us vs them” situation and I do want to keep her on. I want her to take this seriously but I don’t want her discouraged. Any tips from those who’ve been here?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I haven’t been there – but my advice would be to push back at the board about what they’re going to get for what they’re paying and tell them that you’re willing to push her for improvement but given the pay scale they need to be clear about which improvements are necessary AND make it clear that the moment she improves enough she is likely to be job searching and out the door. Bring stats if you can about what people in her position are generally getting paid – if they’re out of date on the numbers, give them hard evidence that the numbers have changed from their perception. Make it clear that whatever happens, based on budget, whoever you get is always going to be a “make-do” compromise and therefore the question needs to be whether she is workout well enough rather than at an optimal level.

      For your direct report, I would discuss the phone use and discuss it as an employee-level thing. Because there are likely differences in why the board members need to have their phone near at all times or respond to what comes through on it and why she does.

      Also, for the dusting, straightening, getting supplies ready – since she does stuff once asked, it may help to give her a frame of reference that these are part of her daily duties and she is expected to look to see if it needs doing and do it if they do. i.e. Make it her responsibility in words to check on a daily basis if that stuff needs doing and then act on it if it does. If she follows instructions, make the instructions match the desired results. Even if that feels like dumbing down the job instructions.

      1. Tara S.*

        +1 for mentioning how if she was amazing at everything, she probably would have been snatched up for a higher paying job.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t get why you want to keep her instead of someone competent and I’m torn because the money’s atrocious. Why are you okay with it? Have her make a list of the dusting and other maintenance tasks, possibly adding to it whenever she’s newly assigned something similar. I hope you didn’t expect her to dust out of the blue without being told that’s part of her job. I would assume there’s custodial staff and I would avoid volunteering for women’s work. You already have an us-versus -them and you’re sabotaging this person by secretly white-knighting for her in defiance of the board. Have you told the board they should lead by example or defended her or said you allow her to have her phone to hand? It’s worth not allowing it and seeing if that improves her focus. It’s fine to expect different behavior of her than of the board. Is the business losing least $10/hr to hand-holding and can you fire her and offer the next person $20/hr?

    2. Tara S.*

      Praise her for the things she’s doing well, reiterate how you appreciate her work on those things. Then talk to her about how part of being in an office is about optics. Not that how she comes off is more important than the work she’s doing, but how some tasks are going to be more visible than others, so even if those tasks are not her favorite or her strongest, it’s important to make sure they get done. Talk about those certain tasks that are supposed to be done regularly but are only being done upon request right now – ask her if she can think of a way to make sure these get done in a timely manner. If she doesn’t come up with something, you can suggest something like a weekly checklist (physical paper) that she completes each week of these tasks. Check in with her regularly about the checklist.

      For the board, I would reiterate that you are happy with her performance for the level she is being paid (you can even throw out that $10/hour is below minimum wage in some states), but that you recognize their annoyance at certain tasks not being complete and will be working with her to complete them.

      Best of luck!

    3. I also love my phone*

      I’m not sure how to resolve the issue with the board’s perception, other than perhaps pulling numbers on her performance and comparing them to similar companies’ salaries for those same duties?

      As as management for your direct report goes, I think you need to schedule a performance review with her where you can go over the little tasks and the larger transcriptions. Lay out that you’re satisfied with her performance, and she’s especially really good at the transcriptions, but the routine tasks need to be done more regularly and it’s starting to make higher-ups grumble when they see the state of things. Since she’s a young, new employee, there are likely loads of things about office life that she doesn’t know yet. Helping her along will be appreciated in the long run, I think.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Ten dollars per hour is borderline criminal. You can’t get blood from a stone, but also you’re gonna get what you pay for (to mix metaphors).

      Remind the board that getting rid of this employee only means you have to recruit, hire, and train another. For $10/hour.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m in the PNW and clinching at $10 an hour. I’m on $15 minimum wage land, my head is spinning.

      But then I recall a few years ago my partner made that as a reporter for a local paper. Sigh.

      You need to become a neutral party if you’re going to just be a hired gun by the board which is how it seems since you’re not pushing back at their ridiculous standards for an underpaid admin.

      The “performance” discussion when someone is underpaid and possibly not trained well or given good direction is a death sentence.

      I would let her know your acting on something handed down from TPTB and your hands are tied.

  125. j22*

    I don’t have a question, but I do want to say that I followed Alison’s advice on how to ask for a raise, and I got one! 5.7% which is not massive, but still more than 0, and considering we’re a cash-strapped non-profit, is pretty good :D Thanks Alison!

  126. Koala dreams*

    How do you handle gossip in the office? I don’t like to participate in most gossip, but I find that I tend to miss a lot of information, for example things like people quitting or being out of office. How do you see the difference between the good kind of gossip that contains relevant information, and bad gossip that leads you to the path to Mean Girls?

    1. LilySparrow*

      People being out of office isn’t gossip. People leaving the company isn’t gossip. Those are just facts that may be relevant to you or your co-workers getting your jobs done, or planning your workload in the future, and so forth. The reasons for them being out or quitting may be gossip, if they are personal or private. On the other hand, if someone quit because they discovered they’re being underpaid or because of managerial misconduct, those are things that affect you or that you should know.

      Gossip is when you are getting entertainment value out of things that are none of your business.

      1. Tara S.*

        +1 to the last sentence. It might still be gossip to talk about these things, but some gossip *is* useful. You get a temperature for the office, you learn about sensitivities so you don’t accidentally step into something, and even though it’s far from ideal, you learn who to be more cautious around. When the gossip has nothing to do with work or safety, that’s when it’s time to redirect or leave the conversation.

    2. gecko*

      Mean gossip is when you’re saying mean stuff. It probably is wise to avoid gossip about things you know would have been told to someone in confidence, as well.

      There’s not really a slippery slope, here. If you’re not in the habit of saying mean stuff about your coworkers, chatting with people over the water cooler about Fergus getting a new job is not going to launch you down that path.

      If you’re not hearing about basic stuff like who’s recently quit, you’re probably drawing way too strong a line, and you might have to put in some work to get back in the loop.

    3. Ok_Go_West*

      “Mean girls gossip” for me is the gossip that focuses on trashing others. When I find myself in the presence of people who are complaining about another employee, I say something positive about that employee, even if I agree with the original complaint. For example, I might say, “Yeah, I don’t love the way the newsletter is done, but Sansa is an amazing event planner, remember how great the auction was?” It’s a rare person who has no positive qualities. Hearing something positive tends to stop the spiral of complaints/negativity and get the conversation back on a more professional footing.

    4. StellaBella*

      Well, I can frame this as ‘how do you NOT handle gossip’: my last job the director of the small NGO and the HR/admin would discuss stuff about people and take one teammate aside to complain about another teammate and gossip about them behind their backs…everything from work styles to personal stuff. So it encouraged a lot of other gossip by staff. Learning what is and what is not gossip is important as noted here in replies.

  127. Person from the Resume*

    A business decision was made to for me and another project manager to swap projects for sensible reasons. My project is large and risky and hasn’t had a real big win in 4 years and the other PM is more senior than I am. The other PM recently got another project running smoothly.

    But it sucks because it seems like after 4 years my project may (MAY because still risky) get a string of big wins. I’m being pulled off right before it happens. If the wins happen, I will know and I think other people will know it was me and not the other guy that did a lot of the heavy lifting. I still kind of sucks.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Can you negotiate getting acknowledgment of your work if the big wins come through? Point out that while normally you wouldn’t ask for this, you’re aware of the perception and the fact that these wins would actually be the fruition of previous hard work and you’d like that to be the clear message if they come through, rather than a major turnaround due primarily to new PM’s work?

  129. MEH*

    I’ve been working really hard to get out of a toxic workplace and had a great interview the other day. I wore a nice suit. The office environment was very casual there and everyone was wearing jeans, sweatshirts, etc. I am going back for a follow up interview and I wondering should I wear a suit again or could I get away with a professional skirt and nice top (more business casual than a suit)?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would say moving to a more business casual appearance could be a good thing in terms of making it clear that you’ve observed the environment and would be able to fit in.

    2. Daisy Avalin*

      I think, having worn the suit for the first interview, that yes you could do a more business casual look – just make sure it’s on the business-ier end of the scale? Professional skirt, blouse/shell, and blazer maybe?

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          If they are wearing jeans and sweatshirts I promise you don’t NEED a blazer unless it makes you feel like your most powerful, professional, badass self.

  130. curtangel*

    I have several overlapping health conditions (winter allergies that lead to sinus infections and asthma triggered by cold weather that leads to bronchitis) that lead to me looking and “sounding” sick (think a distinctive chronic cough) when I’m not and feel completely fine outside of the discomfort of a cough and runny nose. This is something I’ve dealt with, literally, since childhood and I manage it the best I can (sinus rinses, rotating allergy meds, specialty cough drops, diet changes, inhaler and the occasional steroids and antibiotics for flare ups).
    Because people often treat me as a disease vector, I keep a bottle of sanitizer at my desk that I use whenever I blow my nose or cough. My employer is aware of the issue and I’ll check in with him when I’m having a flare-up to reassure him that I’m taking medication and seeing a doctor.
    My question is how do I deal with co-workers and contract workers who ask me if I’m “still sick” when I never was? I’ll often politely play along when someone tries to commiserate with “I had what you have.” – they definitely did not. But a lot of the times “are you still sick?” or “are you feeling better?” seems to be a sideways way of asking if I still have a cough – and I definitely do and will probably until the cold weather has passed. I often explain its a chronic cough and I feel fine only to get the exact same questions a few days later from the same people. Is there a better way to explain without giving health details I might not want to or inviting advice that is often unneeded?(over the counter cough medicines don’t work for me and often make me actively sick, same with most cough drops, antibiotics don’t generally help at all and I only get them when I’m having an obvious flare up or have become feverish – something I watch out for)

    1. RedinSC*

      I also have terrible allergies and am almost always sniffling or wiping at my nose because of them. I just let all my coworkers know – Oh, I have terrible allergies, it’s annoying. So now no one asks unless I am really out sick. So, I would just repeat, – Oh, it’s just my allergies, so annoying, until they stop asking. They will, I think.

    2. INeedANap*

      I think if I were you I’d stop playing along politely and just start being a little more blunt: “Oh, I’m not sick – these are winter allergies. No need to worry about catching it.” Rinse and repeat each time someone asks about it; I actually find using the exact same phrase over and over again helpful because it emphasizes the message: not sick, just allergies, not contagious.

      Even if you are technically sick with a sinus infection or something, as long as you’re not at work contagious, I’d go ahead and still characterize it as “not sick, just allergies.”

    3. Colette*

      I have similar but less severe conditions, but I tend to go with “chronic cough” or “I get like this when the weather changes”. But my colleagues don’t harp on me like it sounds like yours do.

      Could you try:
      “I’ve been lucky to escape the bugs this year, just the usual cough”
      “You must be thinking of someone else, I haven’t been sick, it’s just the same old chronic cough”

  133. Rebecca*

    Last name change after divorce – what do to at work.

    I’ve worked at my current role since 2002, and since my divorce was finalized in November, I’ve decided to go back to my birth name. I’m going to start the process next week, so there are a lot of things to consider: bank accounts, credit cards, 401K, health records, driver’s license, car registration, passport, etc.

    I know here at work I’ll need to update HR for payroll, 401K, tax purposes, etc. but I don’t want to update my email address or phone list, anything like that. Everyone knows me as “Rebecca Smith” or “Becky Smith”, and I interact with people on several continents, various languages, norms, etc. and I’d rather just leave everything at work as it is. There may also be some confusion as to who “Rebecca Jones” is for a while.

    So, what have you done? Do you think it would be OK to update my personal life, stuff with the IRS, etc. back to my birth name, but just leave my work name as it is?

    I’m sure this isn’t a big deal, and I’m probably stressing over it more than I should, so if you have any thoughts or experience here I’d love to hear from you.

    1. Namechange*

      I returned to my maiden name following my divorce, even at work. (BTW: I never told anyone, except my boss, I was divorcing.) No one batted an eye about the sudden name change, except for the occasional question. I left my work e-mail alone for a bit, but I eventually created an alias e-mail address with my maiden name. It just wasn’t a big deal.

      1. valentine*

        Change it all and give yourself the gift of a clean slate. You can always add (formerly Smith) to your signature for a bit or send out an email alerting people of the coming change. If there’s an SOP in your office for people who change their names post-marriage, you can do that.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We had a name change recently and he still goes by his previous name socially. It’s never been an issue to keep internal separate from documents that require legal names. Heck, I’ve heard it’s harder to try to change your email and internal logins in many places out there, so hopefully they’re happy with less work all around.

    3. Tara S.*

      Lots of people go by names that are not their legal names in office settings. A thing that will happen a lot in my office is people going by their middle names instead of their legal first names. As long as you use your preferred name in your email sign-offs, I wouldn’t worry about it being changed in the back end.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      It’s fine to keep a professional name while changing your name legally, for whichever reason. As long as HR / payroll knows you’re Rebecca Jones, you can still keep Rebecca Smith as your email.

    5. Colette*

      I think you’re OK regardless. Having said that, if you want to change your email address, people will adjust and you can have your old address forwarded to your new one. (If you don’t change now, you will still have to deal with the confusion when you move to a new job, so it’s just postponing the problem.)

    6. Justin*

      I mean, yes, that should be fine. Susan Sarandon hasn’t been married to Chris Sarandon for a very long time, but that’s how we all know her professionally.

      (It’s a random example, but I also think if my mom got divorced she wouldn’t bother with all the non-legal changes because she’s built a brand and rep as her married name over the past 27 years)

    7. Dust Bunny*

      My friends are all over the map on this. Some kept their names because it was easier and/or they wanted to have the same surname as their kids. Some didn’t because they didn’t want the ex’s last name. One went back to her first ex-husband’s name because she’d used it for years and it was the same as her kids’ and grandkids’, who lived locally. I think whatever seems simplest and is most comfortable for you.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Name changing at my org is two parallel processes – one for HR (mandatory) and one for IT (optional). I did both, I have coworkers who have done both and others who only did the HR parts. Not a big deal.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I have experienced this culture in two workplaces. One is where I currently work, and the pressure to act happy only comes from senior management. My direct boss is all too eager to wear her heart on her sleeve (she has cried in the office multiple times). Recently I was given a title change and explicitly told “You should be happy and grateful!”

      I think policing peoples’ emotions is pretty gross, and in my experience it almost always comes from men and is directed at women. 98% of the times I’ve been told to smile, it was by a man.

      1. Justin*

        Not that you’re wrong, but as a black guy, I am also not really allowed to be emotional in certain workplaces. So I’d amend it to white men (not that men of color don’t tell women to smile).

    2. H.C.*

      Honestly, what this article described doesn’t surprise me and is in line with the work culture at a lot of Silicon Valley orgs.

  135. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Omg just over here reading the “FEEL SHAME” / “WE ARE WATCHING”email from the labor industry department that talks about people caught scamming workers comp and breaking employment laws to the tune of giant fines/penalties.

    Dude got 88k in benefits after a fall and declared unable to work. He then changed his name and started hustling real estate?! That’s deliciously deviant.

    Fifteen years ago, I couldn’t imagine being so interested in this kind of news release.

    Is there anything you enjoy professionally now that younger you would have yawned over?

    Between this and my casual snark about the powerful CEOs of the world, I’m such a business nerd.

    1. fposte*

      Benefits. I love a good talk about 401ks/403bs/457s. The last are especially weird and therefore interesting.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I want to take that trait and plug it into my crew…explaining benefits, despite the great “easy” sheets they give you is the worst part of my job.

        I’m in a circle if h3ll right now. We offer a SIMPLE IRA that requires people fill out electric forms sent to their emails. It’s killing me because I can’t find a way to do it for someone without leaping over a thick boundary and regulations/laws. It sickens me that it’s great for 99% of our crew past and present but we have a person every so often who cannot grasp the system and if I sat and walked them through it, I could get in trouble if something went sideways and they decided I ef’ed it up or they didn’t fully grasp the regulations and risks etc. I’m rarely into caring if I can assess low risks all around but that’s one I’m fearful to mess with.

  136. A Working Mom*

    How do you combat burnout? I’ve lost just about all motivation to do my job and I find certain aspects of how my dept is run demoralizing. I have some short spurts of really productive days and then I have a setback and feel exhausted and only do the bare minimum.

    Besides taking a vacation, what are some strategies that you all use to help avoid burnout or recover from burnout?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      A few things that helped when I was feeling burned out was taking a mental health day, leaving work at work as much as possible (taking my work email off my phone, setting a limit on how much I talked/vented about it at home) and exercising more, because it helped me burn (sorry) off the feelings of anger and sadness that were associated with how ToxicJob was running my life.

      1. valentine*

        Map out the levels between bare minimum and productive. Ramp up to a consistency that’s in the middle. See how long you can keep it going.

    2. First Time Caller*

      I feel you! I am in the same boat…I’ve known for a long time that there are things about my workplace that aren’t going to change, but I thought I could just keep doing my job and prevent it from really getting to me. Flash forward to today and I feel totally unmotivated and useless because the meaningful parts of my job get taken away from me and I literally just wait until my boss needs something done. I have been trying to cope by 1) breaking my work into the smallest possible chunks, with the idea that accomplishing something — anything! — will make me feel good and get the ball rolling, and 2) try not to internalize the feelings of “I don’t get to do anything high-level so I must not be capable of it,” and “I’m not doing anything useful all day so I feel useless.” I have also been 3) trying to focus on things I want to learn that are tangentially related to my job.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      This may not apply to you, but I found myself way too personally invested in my (toxic) job, and taking a step back from that really helped. For example, I was internalizing “hey we decided to go in a different direction with this project so you can stop working on it” as “oh god I’m awful at my job because if I was better they would still have kept this project going and if I’m awful at my job who am I as a person oh god I suck as a person and everything is terrible I put so much effort into this and everyone probably hates me” and other awful nonsensical things that bled into every aspect of my work in a terrific downward spiral. But when I was able to take a step back (which honestly only happened once I put in my notice) and recognize that work was just work, I am more than just my job, things became a lot clearer and calmer. I was able to realize that things happening at work weren’t a reflection of my worth or indicators of larger things at play, and it was such an amazing feeling.

      Granted this healthier mindset came from a combination of leaving that job and therapy (both of which I recommend if they are options for you), but the long and the short of it is making work just something you do, separate from your self-worth and identity, is incredibly freeing. I’m a lot happier now in a job that is just job to me, and not a signifier of who I am.

      I hope that helps, I’m rooting for you!

  137. A. Nonny Mouse*

    My partner’s coworker was recently given a neck massager as a gift. She’s been using it at her desk in the office — and moaning as she does so.

    Totally inexcusable, right?

    1. fposte*

      I’d go with “mildly annoying” myself, given the amount of noise I’ve heard about tasty food in my workplace. Partner can feel free to ask her to keep pleasure moans out of the shared space, though.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s one of those things like clipping nails or walking around barefoot in the office. Unprofessional and enjoying but you gotta pick your battles.

  138. I got a job!*

    I just signed an offer letter and accepted a job! It is full time and in the field I went to school for. I’ve never had a job outside of babysitting or selling aluminum scrap before.

    I just want to say thanks Alison. I don’t ever remember anyone in my family having an honest job before and not one had ever finished high school so I had no idea what to do about school and a job. I learned everything from you and I couldn’t have done it without you. You have seriously changed my life for the better.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      This is so wonderful! I love hearing this! Congratulations! Celebrate yourself this weekend!

  139. Laura H.*

    I moved locations- same company- I was employed at location A for 3.5 years regular part time, location B was closer to home- but had to go seasonal with a chance at regular employment in order to do that move. Due to a few incidents with my hair that I swear knots itself to spite me, and one majorly out of the norm day where day was ontop of me more than I was ontop of it, I sorta lost my gamble and was not picked to stay on at location B. (Had to surrender position at location A so that’s a no-go) My apologies, I’m still a bit bitter/sad/ kicking myself for this.

    My question is, although my stint at location B was only for three weeks (last day at location A immediately lead into first day at B) , I’m on the side of still including it on my resume because it speaks still to my long term with the company at large, and shows I didn’t leave location A in a weirdly busy time without reason. Also, as location B does want me back during other busy seasons, does it make sense to leave the short seasonal stint on there?

    ALSO IT’S ONLY BEEN A WEEK AND I’M STILL AN EMOTIONAL MESS AND GOING A LITTLE BONKERS…

    Thank y’all for helping my sanity and sending good job search vibes to those w2ho are looking

    1. LALAs*

      If it is the same company and same job title (?) you can list is as
      Company BLAH
      Job Title
      Location A and B

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Or don’t include location at all unless the two locations are hundreds of miles apart. Generally, the only location I put is City/State and the city is just the major metropolitan area “Dallas” instead of the specific place “Fort Worth.”

  140. NotAMadScientist*

    I found out one of the people I trained is probably getting let go. They’re still in their probationary period and they’re not up to par and refusing to work at it so it make sense, I just feel weird about it. On the one had no more correcting and constantly needing to keep an eye out. On the other hand I feel so bad for them, they are very young and this could have been a great stepping stone for their career. The main thing that’s getting them is lack of professional behavior and that’s easy to change and they just are not. Big boss is collecting statements and meeting HR. Big Boss could tell I was a bit upset and said he has to protect the companies interests and our department has to be up to speed, we can’t be constantly playing fix it on this workers efforts. I’m relatively young to workforce, just never been in this situation before. It’s super weird today, have to just keep pretending everything is normal until higher ups put the balls in motion…

    1. Michelle*

      That’s a super shitty feeling, but remember you can only give someone the tools they need to do their job (it sounds like you did!) and the rest is on them. You can feel weird and still know it’s the right course of action.

      I tend to feel really personally frustrated and down on myself when a young employee isn’t acting on my feedback, because I know they’re early in their career and I so want to help them succeed. But sometimes getting fired IS how they learn… and some of them will never learn at all. Good luck!

    2. animaniactoo*

      The main thing to keep in mind is that losing the job may be what it takes to convince said person that they DO actually need to clean up their act and those things WILL actually matter.

      Or they may not. In which case you can feel sorry for them being them and hope they find something that is better suited to their attitude.

      The main thing to know from your side of the fence is: Did you do your best to try and help them? Were you proactive and consistent about your messaging? If so, you did what is within your power. That’s as much as you can do, because they are a human and have the choice of response. So you can regret that they didn’t take you up on it without regretting that you, personally, couldn’t help them. If there are things you think you could have done better… well, going forward, keep an eye out for those and try to be on top of them… and remember that making those differences here might not have created a different outcome, given how resistant they have been to change.

    3. BuildMeUp*

      That sounds hard!

      I’m not sure if it would be you or your boss, but has someone had a “you will lose your job if you don’t improve on this” conversation with them? If they’re new to the work force, they might benefit from one final “hey, this is actually a really big deal and you need to take this seriously” wake-up call to understand that this isn’t just minor feedback. Of course, if that conversation has already happened, I know it sucks, but letting them go is really the only option at that point.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As someone who’s had to fire people who refuse to adjust to professional and company standards, it’s a frustrating situation on every level.

      You can only give a person a fair shake. That seems to have happened and this falls on them. They’re young and inexperienced but it wasn’t their time and place. They’ll learn and grow or they’ll pass blame, not take responsibility and continue to suffer for it.

      You’re a good person and so it is even harder. It’ll be easier once the person is gone.

  141. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I’m overcaffeinated and very ready for the end of the work week! So a second work post for me in one day…
    After the recent thread about converting time values–decimals and fractions and hours:minutes in all their glorious time-card variations — I had the “simple” task of converting a slew of minute measures into hours.

    And the clock kept getting in the way. Excel and oh so many forum recommendations kept using time functions, so my 7600+ minutes were jumping from 127.3833 over to 9:12.

    For now I’m using this but if you’ve got a more elegant solution I’m interested!
    =INT($C1/60)&” h “& TEXT(ROUNDUP(MOD($C1,60),0),”00”) & “m”

    And more to the point — what would this be *called* in an index? I really didn’t know how to look it up.

    1. AcademiaNut*

      I know little about Excel, but for Google-fu purposes what you’re looking for is “convert decimal hours to sexagesimal”

  142. Professional Shopper*

    I’m late today, but I’ve been meaning to ask for opinions. I have a large office, once for two people, now just me (and it has to be just me because I work with confidential information). So I have a huge empty half! I asked for furniture, and they got me one extra wheelie chair

    Does anyone have any very cheap ideas to use the space? I don’t have any extra furniture at my apartment to bring in, but I got a large Christmas Tree and one of those fake fireplace space heaters for the holiday season and it looked pretty nice (it didn’t fill the space, which is probably 7’x10′)

    1. INeedANap*

      Are there other offices in the building? I find that actually there are a lot of people in my building looking to get rid of stuff, but there’s nowhere for it to go. You could try asking around to see if there are old tables, chairs, bookcases, whatever that people are trying to get rid of.

      1. Professional Shopper*

        There’s a limited number of offices in this building, and they sent a stash of office furniture to our new location this summer, so it’s weirdly hard to get a chair in this building right now.

        Also, the culture here is very much to bring your own everything (sigh). This was fine when I had a tiny box office, but now I have this huge room..

    2. Colette*

      Can you ask specifically for a round table and chairs? (Asking for furniture generally is pretty vague.)

      What about a bookshelf or file cabinets? Facilities may have some of those lying around.

      What about some sort of wall covering – a curtain for example – just to give that part of the room a different look?

      The ideal would be some sort of comfortable chair/couch, but those are more expensive.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I had an office with a weird column, so it didn’t have the normal “U” desk configuration that the other offices had. The permanent desk was just an “L”, but it had a company-provided round table and 2 chairs in there. I actually liked that a lot, and was going to recommend getting a round table. You can meet in your own office without feeling like they’re invading your space.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      I’d suggest freecycle if you have it, maybe furniture thrift stores, or if there are any office supply stores locally you could check out? Check with your boss, maybe theres’s an office furniture fund you could expense a couple of things to?
      I’m thinking items like:
      some bookcases – with relevant books and a couple of small ornaments,
      couple of easy chairs and a small table for meetings where you can spread out paperwork if needed,

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’ve gotten decent looking but pretty inexpensive furniture (bookcases in particular) on Amazon or at Target.

      Habitat for Humanity has restores with new/gently used furniture, or check local thrift stores/yard sales in the spring and summer.

  143. Restructure Hellion*

    Update to the restructuring hell.
    An older member of my team has been hospitalized with a health emergency that I’m certain was aggravated by stress.
    It seems the plan is for us to take on the work of at least 3 people apiece with no automation or streamlining processes. We are literally keying things into a mainframe system from the 1970s. Other teams and clients expect us to turn things around in the same time frame as when we were fully staffed and that is Just Not Possible.

    I’m loyal to my manager though and worry my departure would send the whole project into a death spiral. But I’m well aware that I need to put myself first. My colleague’s illness has taken away my motivation to make this work.

    1. valentine*

      Your manager is okay with you enduring a Sisyphean task. Your loyalty needs to serve you. Seize the smallest scrap that can motivate you. Lead by example and leave.

  144. ILoveDucks*

    That baby duck is hella cute though…I’d certainly be asking after them every time I saw their caretaker.

  145. Cousin Itt*

    I need some advice for my sister. She’s just started a new job (a temp contract) which let her leave her old job where she liked the work but management was so awful her team was dropping like flies.

    Except… this new job has really started on the wrong foot. Her supervisor has given her very little guidance or training and has been working from home for two of four days she’s worked there. Also, IT failed to set her up with an account so she can’t log onto the system, recieve/send emails or IM anyone. This still hasn’t been resolved.

    On top of this the culture is veeeery relaxed. People come to the office in tracksuits, lots of ‘banter’ and manager’s are fine with employees watching Netflix while they work.

    She can leave with one week notice and seems pretty much ready to do that, but my mum reckons she should stick it out for another week and see if things improve. Any advice?

    (For context she doesn’t do a super specialised job that would be really hard to find, her position exists in pretty much every company)

    1. irene adler*

      Can she speak to management about what their plan is for her on-boarding ? Don’t let them use the excuse that “we didn’t know” when she’s not able to do the work they expect her to do.
      If there isn’t anything formal, can she ask to shadow someone to learn how they do their tasks?
      If I were her, I would keep my manager apprised re: no account from IT .

    2. WellRed*

      I’d give it another weekly, only because of holidayz plus maybe there’s just something temporary going on with mgr so he’s not fully engaged.

  146. Anonymeece*

    Decorating your office!

    I am not in any way decorator-minded. My advice is always to add another bookcase. But my work friend and I have been on Operation Zen to re-do our offices to make them more calming to be in. I’ve added a lamp and a diffuser and those have both worked tremendously well, as well as some plants and artwork.

    Does anyone have any blogs or pictures or anything of how to decorate offices? I keep finding home office decor pics. To clarify, I work in a regular office with a closed door, square, with a desk, filing cabinets, a wall with windows, and an inability to change the burnt orange wall I’m staring at all day.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I inherited a massive cork board and have filled it with postcards from vacations and cute enamel pins that have just collected over time (also Amazon). I found the postcards to be relaxing and reminding me of fun times and the pins are fun to organize on the board.

      Perhaps a tapestry of some sort for the orange wall? Society6 has a lot of options direct from artists-maybe you could find something that doesn’t completely clash with the color but is more soothing to look at than orange?

    2. babblemouth*

      I strongly believe that you can’t have too many plants. They help with anything from absorbing noise to calming people. So count the plants you have now, and then double that number :)

    3. xarcady*

      There are some YouTube videos about cubicle makeovers. Some of the tips and hints would work for an office.

      One thing I’d suggest, if you are trying to make the space more calming, is not to have too much open storage. The sight of piles of papers, etc., is not calming. Bookcases filled with books are another thing entirely! But if you are using a bookcase to store random odds & ends, or papers, or other documents, see if you can’t get a storage cabinet with doors or a file cabinet instead.

      Again, for the calming effect, check out books/articles on feng shui.

  147. MountainMeg*

    I’ve been job searching for about a month and have heard almost nothing besides a few automated rejection emails. I did start looking right before the holidays, which I know may be slowing things down. I looked through Alison’s advice about resumes and cover letters and implemented those tips but still – nothing. I have over 20 applications out there. For reference, I’m in marketing with about 8 years of experience looking at positions that are mid-level at companies that are mid-size. I’m qualified for all of the positions I’m applying for. Tips? Advice? Anyone else having this problem?

    1. whistle*

      Hang in there. Everyone I know who is job hunting is having this problem right now. A month is short time, and a lot of people did not do non-essential work from Dec 21 until Jan 7. Then this week has been spent dealing with the backlog. My only advice is to keep applying and do things you like to do in your off time!

    2. 653-CXK*

      Me also… It’s nervewracking as all hell, but when it results in a good job, it’s worth it.

      I also found that the classic AAM “give them a week or two to respond; if they do, great, if they don’t, silence is their answer.” maxim works wonders and it is a nice surprise when they do call back. (Two did contact me but it ended up they weren’t a good fit, so I declined them.)

  148. Manu*

    Up to what size company do you think it is useful to have a company-wide email announcing a departure?

    We are a 50-person company (40 people in one location, 10 people in another). Up until now, we have often made a company-wide announcement when someone leaves (sometimes an email from the outgoing employee, sometimes from the relevant VP). We also always do a company-wide email for new hires. It makes sense that at a certain size of company these emails would only go to the relevant department and not to everyone. What size do you think that is?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think once you get past 500 employees, you don’t send company-wide emails every time there’s a new hire or departure. But for under 500, it’s actually nice to know. And if it becomes annoying, then the problem isn’t the email but the attrition.

      1. valentine*

        No company-wide emails at all. Supervisors or employees email only people on their team who actually had work contact with the employee. As weird as it is for only the employee to say anything, I don’t want to know about people I’ll never meet, especially if death or illness is involved.

    2. whistle*

      Interesting reply from Anonymous Educator. I would set the threshold much lower – say 100 employees. Once you hit that number there is (almost) no one there who knows everyone, so company wide emails about individuals make less sense to me. I also think it matters what department the departing person is in. HR or IT departures affect everyone. Other departments perhaps not so much.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        May depend on industry, then. I mainly have worked in schools with employee numbers in the range of 30-200. Every single school I’ve worked in since the early aughts has sent a school-wide email about new hires and about departures (if the departure is a friendly one).

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think it’s tiered depending on the position and not just the size of the company. A company with 50 or fewer everyone gets announced from receptionist to CEO; 50-200 (arbitrary, but 500 sounds way too high) then managers and above get announced; 200-600 directors and above; 600+ and it’s VP and C-suite level that get announced to the whole company. I think it goes the same for departures and arrivals. I guess you could make exceptions for people who have been with the company for a long time, say 15+ years.

  149. Annual performance review*

    How do I negotiate for a salary raise during an annual performance review? This is my first time ever doing so and I’m kind of nervous. I read over my company’s policy and it says base salaries are eligible for an annual raise of up to 5% combining merit and inflation.

    1. Erika22*

      I’m in a similar boat in terms of what is allowed as a company policy. My advice is to go into your review/negotiation armed with examples of good work you’ve done, leadership you’ve shown, possibly the job description of the level above you that pays more showing what you’ve done at that level, and just say “I know company policy says we can only receive up to a 5% raise, but I was hoping you could actually push for X%, as in the past year I’ve (examples).” Depending on the company (like mine), this may really be a firm ceiling where your supervisor doesn’t have any wiggle room, in which case you’d probably get the 5%. In other companies it may just be an arbitrary number they’ve chosen. Especially if you’ve truly gone above and beyond in your role, I’d definitely still try!

  150. anon for this*

    At what point can I report a coworker’s admitted but not witnessed racial discrimination ?

    For background: I work in higher ed, and the coworker is an admin who deals with student recruitment (/students in general). Most of the department is white, except for our chair (and a few faculty members, but not core faculty). In staff meetings in which the chair is not present she has said:
    1) “If I can’t pronounce their names, I know they won’t fit in here”
    2) that she attempted to report a (Muslim, from the ME) student as a terrorist after he said something about America being responsible for 9/11–not sure if this was a “bush did 9/11” thing or “america’s actions in the middle east were bad and made people hate the US”. whether you agree with that or not it does not warrant reporting someone as a potential terrorist, which could have caused him to be kicked out of the country and of course the program. (the reporting process was so long that she gave up, so he was not actually reported.) however, this took place before my time and I don’t have any proof except that she said so.

    at this point I feel like I know enough to say that she’s contributing to our recruiting process being discriminatory, but I don’t know if it’s enough for anything to be done about it. she’s been here for longer than I’ve been alive; I’ve been here for 6 months. should I report to HR? discreetly let our department chair know? wait until she does something more blatant?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Please bring this up with your chair. If they do nothing, reach out to HR/EOC person on campus (if you have one). Write down what you hear, when it happened and where.

      1. valentine*

        At what point can I report a coworker’s admitted but not witnessed racial discrimination ?
        Immediately.

    2. animaniactoo*

      If she’s saying this TO YOU, I would bring it up to whoever is above you with the stance of “I’m not sure if this is actually accurate, but co-worker made these statements to me. I find them concerning and I don’t know if you’re aware of co-worker’s views and the apparent strength of them. In particular, I am concerned that they may be affecting her work in student recruitment.”

    3. fposte*

      Absolutely report. Where will depend on your school structure–usually it wouldn’t be HR but a chair or dean in the unit or a Title IX/EEO officer outside of it.

    4. anon for this*

      thanks, all. the coworker in question was in a bad car accident earlier this week (& had surgery today) so I think I’ll wait a bit so that the timing isn’t quite so bad, but will definitely address it with the chair. basically all my coworkers are somewhat racist in a plausible-deniability way so it’s difficult to tell when something is truly over-the-line, so I’m glad y’all seem to think this is definitely enough to bring up.

  151. Taylor*

    Pretty much as the title suggests, our boss is pretty bad (dismissive of all staff, racist, sexist, unwilling to make changes, etc.) which has led to significant turnover in the last 2-ish years. We’re a small staff of around 11, and all but 4 positions have seen turnover, with the most recent people leaving and stating it is because of our boss. Another coworker admitted this week they are actively seeking jobs elsewhere.
    The other middle manager and I have debated going to our boss’ boss, but have stalled because our boss keeps promising he’s going to retire, then postpones it. This has been happening for about a year and a half now, and we’re losing hope he will actually follow through. Should we continue to grin and bear it, or should we bring it to the attention of higher ups? I’m not sure they could do much about it, but it would make us feel a lot better.

      1. valentine*

        You’re supporting a kyricist, giving aid and succor to the enemy. I hope you’ll add yourself to that high turnover.

    2. fposte*

      Racism and sexism should be reported to the appropriate managers. If the staff of eleven is the whole company and you have no HR, then absolutely the grandboss is the person to report to. They’re big enough to be covered by Title VII so they’re vulnerable to lawsuits.

      You don’t have to pretend that he’s otherwise just peachy, but you want to focus on the actively liable behaviors.

    3. animaniactoo*

      I would absolutely bring it up to your boss’ boss, because if nothing else that person is going to be the one who is going to say “Barnaby, you can’t put off your retirement anymore. You have to follow through on this one.”

  152. EnfysNest*

    I’m trying to get clarity on promotions in the Federal Government. I’m an 11 (step 3) and there’s about to be a 13 position opening up in my department that I’d be really interested in if I can apply. Am I allowed to apply to a job two grades above me or do I have to go up one grade at a time? I’ve always had the one at a time concept in my head, but now I can’t find any actual documentation about it, so I’m not sure. I’d love to be able to apply for this position (for the actual work tasks more than the money, honestly, but the money would be nice, too…), I just don’t know if I can. I’ve been an 11 for over 3 years.

    1. mr. brightside*

      If it’s posted externally (“all US citizens”), then you can make the jump and I know people who have. If it’s posted internally (just status, etc), it will say things like “must have a year at GS 12”.

      1. mr. brightside*

        Oh, and if it’s early enough in the process, talk to your boss about if they can make it a 12/13 because you want to apply and all that. If you have a good rating, and a good relationship, they might be willing. Advantage to you: you get your 12. Advantage to them: they know you’ll be looking elsewhere for your 12 and this way they get to keep you.

        1. EnfysNest*

          Okay, thanks. I did ask about the 12/13 option and my supervisor was looking into it, but for a couple of reasons, I don’t think they were able to do that. It’s already been sent off to HR, though, so I don’t want to bug him about it again for details when I can just wait a little longer and find out what shows up when it’s posted. Hopefully it will be posted externally.

          1. mr. brightside*

            Oh and if for some reason it gets posted both status and all citizens and it’s a 12/13, apply to both. You may make the cert in one but not the other.

  153. tacocat*

    An internet friend whom I’ve known for many years is now a client of my division. I likely won’t have direct dealings with him, but we are friends on social media, etc. I’ve never met him in real life but like many online friendships, we know a LOT about each other’s lives. This is completely coincidental although we knew that we worked in the same field. Should I disclose this to my employer in case it comes up in the future?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yeah, but it doesn’t have to be a big deal disclosure. It can just be a “Hey, I heard Jack Thomas is now a client here. I’ve been internet friends with him for a long time, I hope he’ll be satisfied with our work.” at some moment where it feels at least semi-appropriate to toss it out there and then move along to the next item of business.

  154. Goya de la Mancha*

    I feel like this has been asked before, but laziness.

    Any picture/template website suggestions for the non-graphic design graphic designers? Or sites that help improve your non-professional design skills.

    I’m not a graphic designer (by trade or training), but one chunk of my job requires me to create posters/flyers/multi page booklets. I feel like I’ve hit a wall with what little creativeness I might have. I pick things up quickly and have time to learn – so steep learning curve isn’t too much of an issue. My company doesn’t like to spend money – so free/royalty free would be best.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I use Canva a lot to create various flyers/posters. It’s all online and has a lot of free options and is pretty easy to use and customize.

      1. First Time Caller*

        Yes, I can’t recommend Canva enough. They make it really easy for your stuff to look consistent and professional, even if it’s just by using the same fonts every time.

    2. Nanc*

      There’s something to be said for consistency–at some point patrons/customers recognize the content is from your company.
      Has someone complained or are you just thinking everything needs to be different? You could just save some worry by picking one or two templates for each content type and dub them the template for 2019 (or whatever time period). Throw in some consistency with logo, contact info, color palette, fonts, etc. and have at it!
      I’ve actually had good luck with Microsoft Templates. Sometimes less [effort] is more!

  155. Persephone Mulberry*

    Has anyone here successfully transitioned from a temp job to permanent at the same organization – not as explicitly a temp-to-hire placement but being hired as a temp and the company decided they liked you and wanted to keep you? Or had a perm offer fall through due to failed negotiations with the recruiter? What was the process like, was there any salary negotiation, how long did things take, etc.?

    I am now in week 10 of being in this temp/perm limbo. My direct manager (not a decision maker in the process) let me know earlier this week that there is a stalemate between the COO and my staffing agency rep over the amount of my buyout clause. The hiring company loves my work (and they are short staffed in the department I’m in) so odds are low that the whole deal would fall through and leave me out of a job entirely, but the way this is dragging out is leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth and I’ve stepped up my external job search accordingly.

    1. tacocat*

      I’d highly recommend keeping that job search active as you are. I once temped for 11 months. At month two they were “trying to sign the paperwork” and it never happened, there was always some excuse as to why it wasn’t happening. I know that it is possible to get hired permanently, but it wasn’t my experience. I think this falls under “hope for the best but have a contingency plan,” but will definitely keep my fingers crossed for you!!

      1. Persephone Mulberry*

        The role they’re trying to hire me into isn’t even what I want to be doing, but “some money is better than no money” is the only reason I haven’t walked off the job yet, so if you could cross your fingers that I get a **different and better job entirely**, that would be great! LOL/sigh…

      2. Chocolate Teapot*

        I started off as Maternity leave cover for a year, but knowing the position was going to end on a specific date, I started to look for other jobs ahead of time. It then turned out that the Maternity leaver decided not to return, so I was made permanent.

      3. Neosmom*

        Agreed. After being taken for granted in a temp to perm job for 14 months, the boss was floored when he received a copy of the resignation letter I emailed to my “handler” at the temp agency. You have the opportunity to carefully job search and find an excellent new setup for yourself. And, if the temp job converts to a permanent job, you have not lost anything! Good luck to you Miss Mulberry.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Yep – I started as a temp covering an education leave. When the person I was covering returned, they kept me on. I was overqualified for the position I was covering, so I kept looking, got an offer for another temp position elsewhere that was more in line with my qualifications, and then when I went to give my notice, was presented with a counteroffer for a perm position that matched my qualifications and paid more. I hadn’t expected it because of the buyout clause, so that was nice. I’ve now been with the org five years, including my temp time, and do not anticipate leaving any time soon.

    3. 653-CXK*

      I was a temp for my ExJob for about two months before one of the people from HR asked me if I’d like to come on full-time with benefits. There were no qualms about it – they liked my work, I picked everything up quickly, and they decided I would be a great fit. (My pay also went up $2 an hour.) I stayed with that part of the company for 7 years until another opening in another team, where I stayed for about 15 years before being let go last May.

      It sounds like your company is used to the arrangement and likes the status quo – they don’t have to go through the rigmarole of bringing you in (and buying you out from your agency), and that the amount they pay (high $) versus the amount you’re paid (peanuts) is worth it. So yes, while they love your work, your plan to step up the job search is a good idea – it sounds like the COO wants more money to buy you out, but the staffing agency won’t budge.

  156. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Just a rant. The floor above my office is being renovated. It’s actually been going on for MONTHS already. But the word from the security guard (who always has the best information) is that the move-in date for our new neighbors is imminent. The problem? What has been just a rather low frequency constant drone that sounds like they are polishing floors…for months?…has today ramped up to sounding like they are either adding a few more floors above us, or jackhammering out the Hoover Dam — I can’t even. What could they possibly be doing! They’ve somehow hit a water pipe that was over a storage closet on my floor so we’ve started the day with no water in restrooms or breakroom…and we’re supposed to keep on eye on our ceilings for any other wet spots.

  157. babblemouth*

    What do you do when 5 minutes into a job interview you know you won’t be hiring the person you’re talking to?
    Context: I did interviews for interns over skype today. No one came to our office, but some people got up dreadfully early as they were in very different time zones from us. For 3 of the interviews, after about 5 minutes it was alreazdy clear the person wasn’t a strong enough candidate. I continued the interviews, because to cut something short when the person I’m talking to got dressed before 6 am to talk to me seemed very rude. But on the other hand, I knew the whole conversation was pointless and kept it going for 30 minutes, and I was definitely wasting their time.
    What do you do in these situations?

    1. fposte*

      I continue the interview. Especially in the situation you’re talking about, it’s a learning experience for them, and sometimes I learn something from it too.

      1. babblemouth*

        At the very least, I learned something about interviewing, and I hope I can also learn to improve my CV-to-interview filter.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          This reminds me of the time I cut an in-person interview short after only 5 minutes. I was the manager in charge of teapot spouts. The person I was interviewing had done teapot spouts, teapot handles and teapot lids. When asked which job he liked the best, he said teapot lids. When asked which job he liked second best, he said teapot handles.

          So I asked him, why are you interviewing for a job in teapot spouts. He replied that even though he didn’t like teapot spouts, he wanted a job in our company doing teapot painting and the external recruiter told him the best way to get that job was to get hired in teapot spouts for a year, then transfer to teapot painting. Oops, hiring someone who didn’t like teapot spouts was a nonstarter, but – thank you for your interest in our company.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I switch into courtesy-interview mode, meaning that I interview them just long enough not to be rude, but cut it shorter than I would go otherwise. So if it would normally be an hour, I might just go 40 minutes.

      But if the reason I realize they’re a no is because it comes out that they lack a clear must-have qualification (and it’s something that can be easily and unoffensively explained — like experience, rather than interpersonal skills), I’ll say that on the spot and stop there. Like, “Ah, I didn’t realize you weren’t managing a team at your previous jobs. This position does require that so unfortunately this won’t be the right fit. I’m sorry we didn’t catch that earlier!” This is much easier on phone interviews, and really shouldn’t be happening by the time you’re at the in-person stage. But that’s probably not going to be happening with interns.

      1. babblemouth*

        That’s what I sort of did – what was supposed to last 45 minutes only took 20. I just felt a bit bad. They weren’t bad people or anything, I just read something between the lines in their CVs that simply wasn’t there in real life. I guess that’s what interviews are for!
        Thank you for answering!

    3. Nesprin*

      They get to go back to what they were doing/bed if you get off the line. So if it’s not going to work, I thank them and get off the line.

    4. DESPERATE & ANXIOUS*

      I’ve gone to some interviews where I knew almost right away I wasn’t feeling it either but wasn’t sure how to end it without burning bridges (it just seems like the interviewer is the one with the upper hand). Myself, I personally would rather they make it obvious I’m not a good fit (using words like “unfortunately”) and let me go.

      One thing I’d like to note though, is that I hope the reason was not because as an interviewer you hadn’t done your homework. I recently went to an interview for a job I knew I wasn’t qualified for based on technical skills alone, but since I was invited to an interview I assumed they were looking for someone with enough related experience and potential. As it turned out, though, all three people who were interviewing me simply hadn’t taken a good look at my resume, which clearly listed the limits of my abilities. I lost interest in the job around the third question, but I just sat there trying to explain my current and past responsibilities as they tried to figure out if I had the technical skills for the job (I didn’t).

      1. babblemouth*

        In 2 of the cases, there was an intent mismatch. The internship is in teapot design – that was very clear in the ad. One of the applicants had a very good background in teacup design, the other one was studying tea service overall. close enough that, for an internship, I figured they could bring something to the team, and I figured they applied for the internship to broaden their backgrounds, as you do in university. Turns out, one really only wanted to do teacup design, not teapots, and the other is clearly more specialised in tea trading, not teapots, and knows way too little about teapots to be join us.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Are you doing 15-30m phone interviews before in person ones? For interns especially, maybe try that so you can ask those questions without making them get up and dressed at 6am (and save your own time in the process!)

          1. babblemouth*

            These were skype interviews. We only do one round, and not in person, as we have people applying from all over the world and it’s not worth flying people over just for interships.

  158. RL Fine*

    I’m wondering if I need to address a slight attitude thing with my one of my direct report. Her job responsibilities are very independent and originally we talked a lot about how it felt isolating from the rest of our team (whose job functions require more cross-collaboration). I’ve tried to work on this by making sure she’s included, has other opportunities to participate in the organization (ie. representing our team on an internal committee), and making sure I’m being communicative and transparent about anything she might not be in the know about.

    But I’ve started to notice a bit of a disinterest – it’s sort of like she went from feeling like “no one knows what I’m doing” to “so why should I care what anyone else is doing?”. Eg: she doesn’t seem to remember anyone’s name outside of our department and within the department, seems to have no clue what other people’s jobs entail (if I see this expressed, I will re-explain what that person does but it doesn’t seem to stick). The chair of the internal committee sent me an email yesterday to say my employee hadn’t completed the (singular, very small) task of the committee reps.

    With the exception of those things, she’s very engaged and good at her job – just only within the strict confines of what her job entails. Am I overthinking this? I can’t figure out where the line is between my role as a manager in terms of making sure she feels included in the team vs. addressing that she needs to be more proactive and show an interest for others to include her.

    1. fposte*

      It’s possible the two things (the committee rep task and the not knowing people’s names) aren’t related, but I’d still talk to her and make it explicit that I expect her to be more up on other people’s names and jobs, and that I’m concerned that the isolation seemed to be taking a toll and would like to hear from her about strategies to combat that.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I have a job that is very easily siloed. As a result, I tend to be the employee who comes in and is very good at my job, but largely unplugged from the work others are doing. And it’s hard (for me, anyway) to be self-motivating about trying to come up with collaborative work, especially if it’s entirely up to me to form these relationships and remember these details.

      I also don’t think it’s all that unreasonable that a person wouldn’t remember the name or specific job duties of someone they rarely interact with, even within the department. It’s just like any other knowledge, it only sticks when it’s actively being used, otherwise you have to go back and look it up. Plenty of people don’t have a good memory for names and personal details of people with whom they’re only distantly acquainted.

      So if you want her to have more integrated relationships with the rest of the department, I’d put her on cross-collaborative projects. If that isn’t possible, well…the nature of a very siloed job is that the person doing it is not going to form those relationships.

      Does this employee want to be on these internal committees? How often do these committees meet? How often are tasks required? Monthly, weekly, a couple times a year? Is the requirement of the committee rep easily overlooked? (e.g. “Fill out this survey and send it back to us” in a company where someone can expect to get a lot of email.)

      But in general, the kind of independent, self-managing employee, who can excel in a role where there’s little to no cross-collaboration, is not necessarily going to be the kind of employee who seeks out external relationships and opportunities to connect. Which kind of employee do you want? The one in the job who does it well, or someone who initiates cross-collaborative relationships outside their own role and daily duties? Because it’s pretty difficult to ask a person, “Do 90% of your job THIS way, and then do the other 10% of your job in exactly the opposite way.” If you want someone who works well as a representative on internal committees, pick someone who cross-collaborates a lot and has a knack for it. Don’t pick the person who *never* does it.

      If you’re looking for a way to develop your employee and give them something to strive toward, then maybe consider skills-based development, process and documentation. If she is the only one doing her kind of job, then it would be smart to have her outline her processes, where documents are kept, and so forth. Not only because it will be easier to expand her role if need be, or transition to a new hire, but also because it will inform others within the department that if they need a SME (subject matter expert) about things that fall under her purview, then they can count on her as a source of information.

      See where her skills can benefit other areas of the department, as opposed to keeping her siloed on a day-to-day basis, but with occasional duties that are jarringly different from her usual scope. As an employee, it’s a lot easier to expand your workload to include things that are *similar* to what you already do, than it is to be like “SWITCH GEARS now do this incredibly different thing that you rarely have to do”.

      1. Autumnheart*

        In other words, think about whether these expectations are supposed to benefit your employee, or you. Are these relationships and committees going to open doors for her in a direct way, or are they basically so that you can tell your own boss at review time that you Developed Your Report using these demonstrable metrics?

        Everyone’s job has some parts that suck and are tedious, and I’m not saying that Employee shouldn’t have to do any. If you’re trying to get actual tasks done that either she’s the best person to do, or the only available person to do, then those expectations are reasonable. If you’re just trying to check the “development” box, then look for things that actually use, or build on, her skills and the things she’s good at. She might suck at names and faces, but be really good at managing the internal wiki. Or whatever. But there must be something.

        2. RL Fine*

          Thank you SO much for this. It is so incredibly thoughtful and opened my eyes to some of my assumptions. I especially appreciate the point about people who excel in independent roles vs. are skilled at cross-collab. I think because I am the latter, I’m expecting her to be too but that’s not necessarily her strengths or the area she wants to grow in. I’m certain I’ll be going back to your comments as I think through this, thank you again!!!

  159. i don’t remember what name i used*

    So I start a new job on the 28th, meaning I’d ideally like to put in my two weeks tomorrow so I have the Sunday off between old job and new job. But I work in a call center portion of my building and I’ve legit not seen/heard ANYONE put in two weeks notice (seen 4+ ppl be fired/boxed by security, 10+ ppl walk off the job day of, and handful of ppl transfer to different depts), so I have no clue how well that would go over and I absolutely need those 2 weeks of pay for bills. People in other depts have said “This is a normal place to work [biba], people put in their 2 weeks notice in my dept, work them, and leave all the time.” but it’s not terribly reassuring to me, personally. I even tried to put feelers out after one of the last walkouts happened; a bunch of us were all kind of gossiping about it, including someone who has worked in the call center for 3-4 years and I kinda exclaimed “doesn’t anyone have the courtsey to put in two weeks notice around here? it just seems so strange to me!” and no one really answered my question or followed up with my remark which made me more anxious about the whole thing.

    I’d feel just awful doing it, but should I just keep my head down and not tell them until my last day? I plan on being at my next job long term/not putting this 9 month call center stint on my resume anyway, I just…have terrible, terrible “you can’t let ppl down like that” guilt at the idea of not turning in two weeks notice lmao.

    1. Nanc*

      Oh what a tough decision! In your shoes I would give 2 weeks notice. If they perp-walked me out 30 seconds later I’d file for unemployment for the two weeks I’m off–in my State they’re pretty good about awarding unemployment for this sort of thing.
      Any idea if the new job would allow you to start earlier? You could explain it by saying your old job didn’t need you to work your 2 weeks notice so you’re now available.
      Is this a first job out of school? If so, a 9 month gap between graduation and a full-time job might bring up questions as to how you paid the bills in between.
      If you gave notice on your last day how would it impact your co-workers? Is it easy to plug someone else into your schedule? Unless every person there is truly awful I’d hate to leave them in the lurch.
      Good luck in whatever you decide and let us know how it goes.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        How’s your boss? If you know them, maybe you can ask them for help with this semi-confidentially. Or someone else in senior leadership who you trust. It’s nice if you can point specifically to something you’ll do in the last two weeks that will be helpful, depending on the type of job. Give them a reason to keep you on.

        1. i don’t remember what name i used*

          My supervisor is great in that he definitely points out when I’m doing things from previous toxic work environments (e.g. I start overexplaining why I used PTO and he’s quick to cut me off and remind me that PTO is mine to use how I see fit), but I don’t know that there’s a way for me to put in my 2 weeks without him notifying anyone higher up.

          There’s also not anything that I specifically do that will be helpful/noteable for those two weeks. As I kinda mentioned in a comment above, my job is fairly typical of a call center in that me being gone doesn’t mean anyone has to fill my shifts, it just means there’s less hours available for those who want time off and my job is fairly straight forward, exactly what the other 60+ ppl on my floor do, and there’s nothing that “piles up” in my absence. That’s not to say I’m not good at what I do; my internal metrics are at or exceeding goals (aka I work at a quick but steady pace) and I got nearly fifty 100% customer survey scores in 7 months (it took most people closer to 12 months), but unforch, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t just be easier for them to box me on the spot.

          Imean, I assume they’d keep me on to keep up with forcasted call volume and already scheduled PTO, but….I just really have no way of truly knowing.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            I meant can you ask your boss or someone who would know directly. “If I had to give my notice, do you think I’d be able to serve out my two weeks, or do you think I’d be asked to leave on the same day? I would like to be able to give two weeks notice so that I could document X procedure or train Y person before I left, but I’m not able to leave immediately. What do you think I should do?” without actually giving notice at that time.

            1. i don’t remember what name i used*

              Oh I definitely don’t feel comfortable doing that, I barely felt comfortable making the comment I did to my colleagues and did specific things later to make it look like I’m not planning to go anywhere.

              Just to note, there is no procedure for me to specifically document (we have online documents currated and regularly updated by the trainers and senior staff) and again, we all do the same exact thing, so there’s no “training someone to do the one task only I do” type thing. Also training someone for my position? Happens in classes of 20-40 every couple of months, lasts 3 months, with a “successful” class retaining half their class by the end of 6 months (aka 3 months out of training).

              1. Friday afternoon fever*

                It sounds like turnover is probably pretty high but is there is a coworker you trust who’s been there for a long time where you can say ‘have you seen anyone give 2 weeks and work it out? or do they make everyone leave when they give their notice?’

                Are you sure everyone has left without notice, or could some people have left at the end of their notice period without you knowing?

                1. i don’t remember what name i used*

                  “Part of the reason I included +s for each number bc there’s also 3 ppl I’ve seen walked out by security that didn’t make a scene and that I have no gossip on, so I have no way of knowing if they were fired, quit [day of], or were part of the dreaded potential but not confirmed ‘gave 2 weeks notice and were boxed on the spot’ group.” though I guess they could have given 2 weeks notice, worked those 2 weeks, and been walked out on their last day as well?

                  The person I mentioned above who has been here for 3-4 years? I knew her before working here, but the problem is I don’t fully trust her. She’s super close with a bunch of the sups (went on vacation with one, went through training class with my current sup, etc) and she’s always been super gossipy.

                2. Friday afternoon fever*

                  Ok, good points. Has anyone at your job left and *not* been walked out? Maybe it’s SOP?

                  Trust your gut and don’t ask her… but also I gave some advice below to just wait and give effective -immediate notice :)

      2. i don’t remember what name i used*

        I can’t start new job any earlier as the orientation at the hospital runs on a regular every 2 week schedule that’s partially thrown off by MLK day (Jan 7 and 28 this month).

        Nah, not my first job; my last job prior to this was 9 years with a health care org working in ppl’s homes (job was becoming something I didn’t sign up for + the negs were outweighing pos + thought I’d try something new, hence call center), new job is at a hospital so 9 mo gap doesn’t look great persay, but if I leave this position, it would hopefully be bc I did some schooling and I’m applying for an internal position.

        If I gave notice on my last day, it would effect my coworkers, but in less noticible ways than ppl having to pick up my shifts. It would more mean less PTO/less home early without pay would be available, it would mean less “ready time” between calls, etc. But it’s not like in another dept where someone leaving means their 50-80 cases they were working have to be transfered to other workers. I just take new information over the phone, put it in reports for those other depts, and send it over. Nothing piles up on my desk at night, if that makes sense.

      3. CatCat*

        If you’ve seen 10+ walk off the job the day they quit and were met with crickets among immediate colleagues when you brought up the 2 week notice thing, that honestly sounds leaving the same day as quitting is a norm in the department where you work. It’s hard to tell why that’s the case (like were the 4+ people fired/escorted by security fired when they put in notice?), but it’s clearly not the employer’s first rodeo with people leaving the same day.

        In your specific circumstances, I would leave the same day that I quit and not give 2 weeks notice. If your boss seems perturbed by this, you can tell him or her that the reason for such short notice is that this appears to be normal in your department based on what you have seen and heard. You can be honest and say that you thought it was odd that people did not put in notice and were worried that so many people were doing this because they would be fired as soon as they put in notice, which was not something you could financially weather. It’s up the to the employer to try and foster a different culture if that’s what they want.

        1. i don’t remember what name i used*

          The 4 ppl who were fired were not ppl who were quitting or had turned in notice; they all seemed kind of likely to be fired from what I could see, though they were all shocked themselves. 1 lied about having his hs diploma on his app, 1 was clearly on drugs and kept forgetting to put herself back into ready after calls, 1 sounded bored on the phone and had lots of behavior issues in training, and 1 I’m a little fuzzier on, but I saw him outside right after it happened and he made it clear he didn’t have a job lined up, he wasn’t expecting it, etc. I’ve since heard he had some metrics issues that he was told he needed to fix, but they seem minor enough that I’m not sure he was fired over that.

          Thanks for the reassurance that I’m probably doing the right thing by not giving notice.

          1. WellRed*

            But you said the people getting walked out were fired. Why do you think the same would happen if you gave notice? However. If they do walk people out when they give notice, then yeah, they don’t get to be upset if you choose not to.

            1. i don’t remember what name i used*

              Part of the reason I included +s for each number bc there’s also 3 ppl I’ve seen walked out by security that didn’t make a scene and that I have no gossip on, so I have no way of knowing if they were fired, quit, or were part of the dreaded potential but not confirmed “gave 2 weeks notice and were boxed on the spot” group.

              Think about it this way. If 20-some people left your department in a 9 month period, 5 transferred to a different dept, 4 fired, 10 walked off the job, and another 3 were big question marks….and no one, absolutely no one put in two weeks notice, worked their two weeks, and left after two weeks…..how exactly do you think you’d feel about the situation?

              Because I’ve been working for 15+ years, had 5 jobs prior to this, gave 2-4 weeks notice at all of them even when I was a dumb high schooler, and I’m wary as heck. I can’t afford to lose two week’s pay just because someone in scheduling maybe thinks it’s easier to just forecast call volume without wondering if I’ll show up and do quality work.

    2. whistle*

      Can you split the difference and give one week notice? If you can afford to lose one week of pay, this would allow you give some notice but not risk losing two weeks of pay.

      1. i don’t remember what name i used*

        Sadly, due to medical bills, I’m very much paycheck to paycheck right now, so even the possibility of losing 1 week’s pay is not something I could go without. :-/

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          The main consequence sounds like burning the bridge to a future reference. Weighing that against your immediate financial needs…. leave in 2 weeks without notice. If it’s a call center type role with a consistent pipeline for hiring more people you are probably OK.

    3. Darren*

      In my country this is easy you just give the two weeks because they have to pay you for the agreed (in your employment agreement) notice period whether they send you home that day or make you work it. But my country is also not like the US in that everyone has an employment agreement, the federal or state award agreement, or a specific one you’ve signed with your employer with potentially different terms and conditions.

      The US is apparently the same at least in some states. i.e. if they mention you have to give X amount of notice they have to pay that amount of notice. If they don’t have such a clause you aren’t required to give any notice at all. Of course that depends if you have an agreement which is apparently atypical.

      You could definitely look at your employee handbook and check with your state department of labor.

      1. i don’t remember what name i used*

        Unforch, I’m in a state where they can fire me the second I put in 2 weeks notice and I can’t get unemployment.

  160. I saw a sign!*

    I need help coming up with the phrasing for a sign in my office. We have a door that is sometimes unlocked, leading directly to a department. If there is no one available to sit at the reception desk in that area, then visitors have to walk to another door around the corner (bigger affiliate department that is always staffed.) We don’t want the sign to say “CLOSED: USE OTHER DOOR” because the department is not closed, there is just no one to greet you so you have to use another door for security. Any suggestions?

    1. Nanc*

      I would just say Please Use Door Located at [EXACT LOCATION HERE].
      Seeing such a sign I would just assume the door wasn’t normally used or was broken.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Can the door be locked when there is no-one on reception? If so, I’d do that and make the sign say “When locked, please use other door at [exact location]”
      Alternatively, use “For [department] please use other door at [exact location]” and have a sign you can put on the reception desk, or as a A- board in front of the door, when no-one is staffing reception.

    4. CDM*

      Is the door open if not locked? (words in () optional)

      If so, I’d go with:
      (Temporarily) Locked for security, please use other door.

      If it can be closed but unlocked at times:
      If locked (for security), please use other door.

      1. valentine*

        I would find “for security” frightening, assuming the threshold must be high to warrant spelling it out.

        What’s wrong with “CLOSED: USE OTHER DOOR”? Visitors don’t need to know about the department, yeah? Also, people mostly ignore and defy signs, so keeping the door locked will be best.

  161. ReadyToGo*

    For anyone with experience with U.S. federal security clearances: I mentioned in a previous thread (linked in my name) that I was waiting for my security clearance to process so I could quit ToxicJob and start NewJob.

    This paperwork is INTENSE. But the one thing that worries me is it requests my current supervisor’s phone number. Will they actually call her? If so, will they let her know I’m looking for a new job? I don’t want to give my resignation notice until I know the clearance process is complete but I’m afraid of having to give notice earlier than planned if they tell her the reason they’re calling.

    1. whistle*

      I think there is a chance that someone will call anyone listed on the forms you are filling out (I assume it’s the EPSQ?), unfortunately.

      In my experience, the Government does not tend to call employers while processing security, but there is nothing that precludes them from doing so. Have you had to disclose anything on the forms that might raise some red flags, e.g. terminations? If so, that would increase the chances that they will call.

      I wish I could provide a more concrete answer.

      1. ReadyToGo*

        No red flags — the form asks for my previous jobs, my supervisors at those jobs, and their comtact information.

    2. Call me St. Vincent*

      If it’s being conducted by FBI or retired agents/marshals, just tell them when they interview you. They usually start with you. Be prepared for them to ask everyone you list on your form for 3 additional people to talk to who you didn’t list and be prepared for people (including former employers) to call you out of the blue saying “is the FBI calling me about you or is this a scam?” and be prepared for them to knock on the doors of all of your neighbors, etc. Fun times.

      1. ReadyToGo*

        Wow, thanks for the heads up. I feel like I should reach out to the people I list and give them a heads up. It’ll feel weird/awkward in a few situations where I haven’t spoken to these supervisors in years (and some of them, I was only an intern).

  162. Extra anonymous today*

    A relatively well-known former journalist in my neck of the woods launched a podcast recently, and I got to be his first guest! I’m at this particular job for the long-haul, so I didn’t need it raising my profile for any kind of job advancement, but it was so cool to be interviewed and then listen to the finished product. My voice didn’t sound as terrible as I usually think it does, which was a bonus. He’s featuring journalists and talking about journalism, in its many forms and locations. He wanted to start with a conversation about journalism in a small town — the kind of place where you run into your sources at the grocery store and elementary school — which happens to be something he and I had talked about a few times. I was so flattered to be interviewed and featured. (I’ll apologize a little for the brag, but not entirely. Because getting recognized for your work is neat.)

  163. Beancounter Eric*

    Thank you for posting pictures of the ducks. I needed that!!

    Going off on a rant here –

    Looking for a way to get across to the team here there is, oh, 275 of them, one of me, my background is Accounting, not HR, and that life would go much better if they would email me about their payroll/HR problems instead of calling and leaving a vague voicemail or simply saying “call me”. Or, better yet, not stroll into my office and demand I drop whatever I am working on and deal with their problem.

    Also that the office managers really, really, really need to be the ones approving time and attendance, and addressing mispunches in the time system, not the Controller (me). And that deadlines for payroll submission really matter since our payroll process, automated as it is, still has a number of manual steps, and these take time, and the CFO and I like to have more than 15 minutes to review the package before submitting to the payroll service for processing, and that missing the deadline the payroll service has can/will result in direct deposits not posting on time in individuals bank accounts, which I suspect will make those employees really cranky.

    Now, back to financials. And where’s the Tylenol!!

    1. whistle*

      Just one suggestion. When you get a vague voicemail that says “call me”, maybe you could email the person who left it with some boilerplate language that you cut and paste from a saved document. “I received your voicemail. For prompt attention, please reply to this email with the specifics of your question/concern. Email is the best way for me to respond to everyone in a timely manner. Thank you!”

      Ok, two suggestions. For the drops ins, just say the same thing as the message above. “If you could send me that information in an email, it would help me address it better. Right now I need to get back to xyz.”

      Good luck!

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Yeah, assuming that you have the political/professional capital and your boss’s OK (explicit or implicit), you need to shut it down immediately with everyone. Firm but friendly.

        Calls to voicemail. Voicemails replied to with a boilerplate email. Better yet, your voicemail greeting changed to ask them to email you. People who march into your office—“I’m in the middle of something, can you email me?” ‘It will only take a second’ “Sorry, I’m in the middle of something, please email me.”

        This was my biggest peeve when I was in a similar many-hats-many-people-one-me role.

        Who manages the office managers? What ability do you or someone else have to set a deadline and enforce it? If the problem is this hasn’t been an explicit expectation of their job, cool, you can fix that though it might be a bumpy rollout at first. If the problem is that they know they need to do this but also know there are no consequences that’s bigger and systemic n

        1. valentine*

          Run payroll when it’s a good time for you and direct disgruntled people to their supervisors. I love the saying “Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.”

  164. Blue Dog*

    I did feel sorry for the duck wrangler — until I saw pictures of how damn cute they are. No wonder there is a need to field so many questions. They are adorable.

  165. I'm Not Phyllis*

    I’m looking for some advice on how to manage office space. I share an office space with only one other person, who works for another department. Her job is – people – basically. It involves a lot of face-to-face, phone time, people dropping in to see her, etc. My job is quite detailed and I require long periods of concentration to work. Basically, our jobs are not compatible with us sharing an office. It’s not her fault – she’s a lovely person and she needs to be able to do her job … it’s just that her job makes it difficult for me to do mine.

    There is a space shortage where I work, in addition to a few building issues … there isn’t any other space for either of us to move into in this building. Our company does have other buildings throughout the city but realistically, we both need to work from this one.

    How do I make this work? I have tried headphones (it doesn’t work), working from other buildings (my boss doesn’t love this) and now I’m doing most of my detail-oriented tasks (ie. most of my job) at home during the evenings and weekends which isn’t sustainable in the long run. I have also tried talking to my boss about this, and while she is sympathetic, she just doesn’t have any other space to offer up. She also doesn’t want me to work from home every weekend but right now I’m struggling to find another way around it. Does anyone have any tips or tricks that might help make this easier?

    1. KR*

      Could they give you cube walls or a large screen/curtain to separate the space into two offices? That might cut down on the visual distraction.

      1. valentine*

        Is there an outer space that she could use, so the meetings are happening in the hallway and you can close your door against it.

    2. xarcady*

      Is there anyone else you can switch with? Someone else who would welcome calm and quiet? Unless it is just the three of you at this site, maybe a little musical offices would get everyone in a better working situation.

      If there is any conference room space, could one of you use it when it is free?

      Could you work from home one or two days a week?

      Could you stagger your working hours so one of you comes in 1-2 hours early and the other comes in later, giving each of you some time at one end of the day or the other without the other one in the office?

      Could you get cubicle partitions for the space? There are some that are more sound-absorbing than others, which might help with the noise. And if you could arrange them so that you can’t see the people coming and going while sitting at your desk, that would also help reduce the distractions.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Would your boss be open to you working from home part time? Say, one day a week to begin with.

      I’m not sure if I’m reading your comment correctly, but you’re the only two employees of your company in the building? If there were more people (and just everyone else is already doubled-up in offices already), I’d suggest swapping with someone else, so you could share an office with another heads-down, concentration/details person.

    4. Psyche*

      I know you said you tried headphones, but could you get your company to buy you a pair of sound canceling headphones to try? Or even try ear plugs? You could also see if it is possible to book a conference room sometimes to be able to focus uninterrupted for an hour.

    5. WellRed*

      This is not totally on you to accommodate! In addition to asking about work from home a few days or booking a conference room, your coworker should be doing the same! Also, have you talked to coworker about this? (I feel like a broken record on this today).

  166. I’m Creative!*

    Any folks who are acting, doing improv, making film/video and making a living from it?
    I’ve worked at an elementary school for a decade (in a position I earned a Masters for) but this school year I have slowly gotten the feeling that I’m just over it. The school and staff are great. I just want to do something creative.
    I grew up doing theater, even majored in it! But when the time came to pick a career path I went with the relative certainty of education, instead of the unknown creative’s life.
    Over the past few years I’ve went through some major personal stuff, but also started getting involved with performance again as a hobby. Which leads me to my current perspective: life is short, and I want to have a creative career.
    Not exactly sure what that would look like; I’m not naive enough to think I can just switch to being an actor. There is a one year program at a local community college for film/video production that looks interesting. My thought is those would be great skills to have to earn money that overlap with acting.
    If you have taken a similar path, I would love to hear your experience!

    1. CheeryO*

      This is probably not at all what you’re looking for, but my state agency has folks whose entire job revolves around traveling all over the state to give training classes on all sorts of things (nothing too technical – more like interpersonal skills, presentation skills, etc.). They’re given a lot of flexibility over what to include in the curriculum and how to present the material. They’re generally pretty small groups, so nothing too stressful or intimidating. More than one of the trainers has mentioned that they got into it after falling in love with improv or standup!

    2. BuildMeUp*

      I’m an actress, although I’m not making a living from it yet! Most actors/improvisers I know do a combination of auditioning and working in shows/film & TV, teaching improv or acting (once they have some experience; some studios will also have a training program for instructors), and flexible/”survival” jobs.

      A film production program sounds like a good idea! I’ve done some work on the production side, and it’s really fun. It’s a great way to learn and make connections, and production work is often a more reliable source of income than acting.

      Another option would be to start auditioning for local theatre/improv, depending on your schedule! Many theatres in my area have rehearsals and shows in the evenings and weekends. And student and indie films often shoot on the weekends as well. Either of those could be a good way to get your feet wet.

      And depending on your look/type and what market you’re in, you may be able to find an agent or start getting cast in paid work sooner than you think!

  167. Piano Girl*

    So my husband is in the process of applying for a position to teach at a community college. The application is all electronic. He has attached his CV and cover letter (thank you, AAM for your help!) but we are running into a weird situation. He is supposed to also list his work history, including supervisors. There was no problem filling that in for his last position (he taught there 26 years) but I’m not sure what to do about the position before. He was at a school in the area we are moving to for about five years. Unfortunately, the principal and superintendent have both passed away. In fact, we don’t recognize any of the names on the district’s webpage! We know that one of his former co-workers (who he collaborated on a few projects) teaches part-time at the community college, and I have encouraged him to reach out to her. Would it be better to list her name in place of a supervisor (who is deceased) or put that the supervisor’s name and contact information is unavailable? Ordinarily, I would simply leave his prior position off the CV, but it seems that academic CVs list prior employment back years and years. Thanks!

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would list the Supervisor Name (deceased) and include general contact info for the HR department at the school?

    2. fposte*

      Yes, academic CVs go back for years, but that doesn’t mean they want to talk to people he worked with 26 years ago. Unless they specifically asked for current contact information, I’d just put the name of his principal and put “deceased” in parentheses after it.

    4. Nesprin*

      This seems like a holdover from fields where the person you worked under gives you street cred (ie. postdoc’d for noted professor A >> postdoc’d at middling university A). So list HR who can confirm where he worked.

  168. xarcady*

    My sister interviewed for a new job and got it! But when she crunched the numbers on the salary offer, she realized that with increased commuting costs for the new job, she’d in effect be making $500 less a year. So she want to ask for $500 more a year.

    Thanks to Alison’s advice about negotiating salary, I told Sis to ask for more money–the new job is more responsibility and higher profile, she deserves a raise. I was also thinking that if she asked for $500, they might offer only $250. So she asked for $1000.

    And she got $2,000! It’s a non-profit, with great benefits, so which is why she was only going to ask for exactly what she needed. But it’s clear they had a little wiggle room in the budget.

    Just posting a little salary negotiation success story to encourage us all to try next time it is appropriate.

    1. Overeducated*

      Good for your sister! This reminds me of the time I got a nonprofit job offer with fairly low pay or leave, and following the advice to only negotiate for one thing, asked for an extra week of vacation. They seemed surprised, and offered the extra week and $3000 more in salary pending a positive review at the end of the (3 or 6 month?) probation period. I guess sometimes we should worry about not asking for enough!

  169. The Pink Lady*

    I have a bit of a weird one. I have a skin condition that I am trying to manage by using phototheraphy. A few times a week I go and stand in a giant tube and have narrow band UV rays shot at me for a minute and change. It’s helping a lot! A fun side effect is that sometimes for a day or so afterwards I’m… pink.

    I am uniformly pink. All over. It sort of looks like a sunburn (which it sort of is) but mostly it just looks like I’m flushed all the time. I have very light skin and it definitely shows up.

    Given that it’s the middle of winter where I am and I’m obviously not going out and getting any sun but I really don’t want to talk medical issues with coworkers, what do I say if someone asks?

    1. fposte*

      “It’s just a skin thing; everything’s fine, thanks.” Repeat the same for any followup questions.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Honestly you could even say something like “oh, it’s just how my skin is sometimes.” First time—breezy, cheery. Assume they’re benevolently concerned. Any subsequent questions or statements: your tone is ‘you are extremely rude and/or clueless to inquire and you are lucky I am such a gracious and unflappable person.’

    2. CDM*

      Windburn is the winter equivalent of sunburn. My daughter had a nasty combo of sun and windburn on her face recently after spending most of a relatively sunny winter day outside, she was bright red. People will assume you do some sort of winter outdoor sport if you cite windburn as deflection.

  170. ContemporaryIssued*

    I had a change in my role recently where one part of my role got “expanded” in terms of responsibilities. The problem is, however, in the two weeks of my new role I’ve noticed these new responsibilities do not really take up enough of my time. I actually started picking up random filing duties at the office just because this week I got so bored. I am also struggling with another problem: some of my new responsibilities are in danger of being hogged by other people at the job. I’m supposed to be a liaison for a service our company buys, and I found out one of the the other admins had basically talked to the service provider and changed something about the service we buy without even asking me.

    In my old role, I had responsibilities shared with a co-worker who worked slowly so I basically did my share, picked up her slack and kept myself busy, and when the work volume increased we were both swamped but could keep our heads above the water.

    I went from underpaid and super-busy to decently paid and barely working. Lucky me, huh? But I’m really worried about the future of this role. I don’t want to become useless by other people taking over my responsibilities and me just reading New Yorker articles at work all day. My boss has talked about new tasks I could pick up eventually but most of them are project-specific and aren’t due to start for months. How should I approach this with her?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      Have a list of other proposed tasks. Can you keep some stuff from your last role until this one picks up?

      Tell your boss you need some short term tasks.

      Quantify how little work you have — x hours a day

      If they decide the role they just created and hired for is useless, there’s probably some bigger dysfunction going on and there’s nothing you can do.

      From the one example you gave it’s difficult to tell 1) how large the pattern of ‘hogging’ your job duties is 2) if you’re supposed to be the only person making service provider changes or just some plus coordinating 3) if your role is new, if everyone is aware of what it is and its impact on their jobs. The example you gave — if you were fully busy already, would it be a problem, or is it just that you don’t have enough to do already and this means you have even less? If needed, ask your boss for clarification.

      Also it’s only been 2 weeks. I know it’s agonizing but sometimes transitions take that long or longer. What does the longer term transition look like?

  171. Emyn*

    Hey y’all o/ Does anyone have any scripts for politely talking to a coworker about their spelling? I work in a callcentre with a co-worker who’s absolutely sweet as pie, but her spelling is *atrocious*. I’ve often found client profiles with the email badly misspelt (who ring up later after not receiving order confirmations), or have been called up by our test centres to correct names which have been misspelt, or I look over to see how she’s doing with a call and find the client on hold and her frantically googling to see if “Paol” or “Peol” is the correct way of spelling “Paul”. It’s not small mistakes either – as an example, she once spelt “Phillip” as “Filp”, which nearly resulted in a candidate being unable to sit the exam as he couldn’t be found on the system.

    I’m unsure if it’s related to her being a native Romanian speaker and being too embarrassed/unaware to ask for the spelling, or if she fears she’ll be abused for asking for spelling in her Romanian accent (we have clients in an industry that can be very anti-immigrant). But also, I’m often fielding calls from clients who need their details corrected because she is consistently spelling them wrong. Is there a nice way to go about this?

    1. fposte*

      I think you tell your manager or team lead that this is a problem. It doesn’t sound like the kind of thing that she can just do better out of the blue, so I’m not sure what you’d say to her that would change anything.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would just say something along the lines of this: “Hey, I’ve come across a bunch of names in files you worked on that have been mis-spelled. I just wanted to check with you – are you asking people to spell their names when you input them? It’s pretty standard to ask people to spell their names and other reference details to make sure it gets input directly, especially because you can never be sure when somebody has a creatively spelled name.”

      Then accept whatever she says to you in the moment, with an “Okay, I just wanted to mention it to you so that you could clear it up” or whatever more offhanded response fits. Because the key here is, as a co-worker, you alerted her that you were coming across issues so that she could address the issue herself before it becomes a next level boss problem, you told her how she can resolve it, AND you gave her an excuse that she can more comfortable use when requesting information from clients.

      1. So glad I'm out of there*

        Oh my goodness. There are SO MANY variations of spellings of names that I train all of my customer service agents to confirm all name spellings. You’d think “Jay Smith” would be simple enough, right? We’ve had these variations: J. Smith; Jae Smith; Jay Smithe; Jay Smythe.

        I have agents based in the U.S. and in Europe and absolutely have them ALL double-check spellings for name and addresses. This could (and I think, *should*) be a part of anyone’s routine who has to enter data. It’s just way too easy to make an assumption that is wrong.

        I understand this is a different issue than simple common misspellings, but it could clear up the issue all the same.

        1. valentine*

          The thing is that, over the phone, you’re going to need the NATO alphabet and maybe she doesn’t get it (Pheven), can’t spell Alpha, or uses Ciara (fair dos; let’s switch the S to Serena). She does need to ask everyone to spell out their names, but she still needs to take language arts courses.

    3. WellRed*

      Well there’s misspelling and then there’s flat out wrong info interfering with customers. I imagine the language issue exacerbates it. However, as a reporter. I can tell you getting, say, a name correct is journo 101. No One should be guessing at customer information! NO ONE. How hard is it to say, “that’s Fergus, f e r g u s?”

  172. CallaLily*

    Within the next few months my current boss will be retiring. I have been told by my boss and my grand boss that I have been selected to replace my boss. My current salary is well below market average. Any tips from others regarding how to make negotiate a salary that is within market value when in this situation? I don’t want to get into an even higher position and be even further below market value.

    1. Catsaber*

      I would follow the general salary research/negotiation advice here on AAM – she has several posts about it and they are all excellent. Also, I’d talk with your bosses about the role – what it looks like now, what they want it to look like – get them to be as concrete as possible about the duties and the vision they have for it. If you feel like you need more time to research salary after this, let them know – but definitely tell them you want to discuss salary since you will be getting a ton of extra duties. Also, are they promoting you (like with a title change) or just adding additional duties to your current title? I’d clarify that as well.

  173. Nancy*

    I plan on asking for a raise. I’ve done my market research for my skills, education, experience, etc. and know the numbers and reasons. I’m know the possibility is probably low that I get what I’m going to ask for and maybe 50/50 that I will get anything. However, I’ve learned from my past mistakes of just “assuming” that I won’t get anything and not even asking. I’d much rather ask and get turned down knowing that my current employer would only do so because it was absolutely not possible.
    My question stems from timing. My two year anniversary will be in September, but our fiscal year starts over in July. The next few months is when they will see what our final numbers look like and where our year came in at and possibly where our new budget will go.

    Should I ask for a raise now (maybe with a stipulation that I wouldn’t expect it until my 2-year mark in September), since my two year will be after new budget decisions will be made or wait until my actual 2 year mark to ask?

    1. fposte*

      Assuming you haven’t had a raise in the position before, I’d start talking to your manager when FY20 budget are getting drawn up. And I wouldn’t leap to offer to hold off until September on getting it.

  174. char*

    My favorite thing about the “I QUIT” photo is that, despite being used to write a message, the fish are still sorted by type and have their prices properly indicated.

  175. Krabby*

    I just have to jump in with an instance of a non-work ragequit that I was reminded of by the fish picture:

    Second year of university, we were all in a huge auditorium writing an exam. It was in Canada, so a lot of people had Tim Hortons’ coffee cups with Roll Up the Rim to Win (which is very self explanatory: roll up the rim of your cup, potentially win money or prizes). We were about 20 minutes into the exam when a girl a few rows back from me suddenly erupted in excited shouting, yelled, “F* you all, I just won $10,000 baby!” and strolled out of the room with her coffee cup shouting at us all that she was rich and we could go to hell.

    The TAs quickly told us to sit down and that the test would continue, so we went back to it.

    The girl came back in 10 minutes later looking really sheepish, “My mom reminded me that $10,000 is not enough to quit school over.” One of the TAs let her sit down, gave us all an extra 10 minutes and we finished our exams.

  176. Claire Bear*

    I’m a little late to this party, but I’m hoping someone can give me some clothing advice. I’m a thirty-something woman currently in grad school for a career change. My classmates are a decade or more my junior. I’ve been nominated for a competitive fellowship and will be attending an information session where the committee members will be present and business casual dress is expected. I’ve been in the workforce long enough to know that that can mean anything from jeans and a polo to a sheath dress, heels, and pearls. Some of my classmates under dress or wear those awkward “professional by way of television/thrift shops/Sunday school” outfits we all wore early in our working life. Some of them wear Armani suits at the drop of a hat. The committee members are an even mix of Birkenstock-wearing academics and business formal sorts from the profession. I want to look extremely appropriate.

    Does anyone have any advice?

    1. ket*

      My sympathies. I think this is really hard, actually. Personally, I like the style presented by MM LaFleur — their clothes are expensive, but I feel like they have some outfits that interpolate between academia and industry and you could use that for inspiration.

    2. JeanB in NC*

      If you search business casual on this site search, I think there are a number of articles talking about this, many of which even go into brands. Personally I wouldn’t think sheath dresses, heels & pearls would be business casual.

    3. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      My vote is black dress pants and a blouse/top with a cardigan. That’s my generic “business casual” uniform. Flats or pumps based on comfort. It’s somewhat of a middle ground between jeans and suits.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      This is tough. I get a fair amount of sweaters/cardigans/blouses from ModCloth because they can be dressed up and down pretty easily. I’m actually thinking of the LW a few days ago who wore black professional dresses every day with a cardigan or blazer and that style may work well here.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Tough one. I think you have to look exactly like what you are. Business casual for a woman in her 30s usually isn’t jeans and a polo. The committee may not bat an eye at a 23-year-old man in that outfit, but it could look out of place on you, and one of the advantages you are supposed to have is a better understanding of professional norms.

      I think I would go with something like business slacks more casual fabric, a blouse, blazer, scarf, and ankle boots. That leaves you plenty of room to step up for an interview, but looks like you didn’t just roll out the door in whatever you wear to class. Ankle boots are more friendly to the Birk-types than a spiked heel, but the whole vibe still seems like something the biz formal folks might wear on a travel day or for casual Friday in a formal office.

    6. xarcady*

      What are you majoring in? Because I can see this being different for an MBA program, a Fine Arts program or physics.

      I think I would try to look pulled-together, but not over-dressed. Pants that are not jeans, a top and a blazer/cardigan, with shoes that are not sneakers. Or a dress with cardigan/blazer. Or a skirt, top, cardigan/blazer.

      And come prepared with paper and pen to take notes. If you can, find out ahead of time if you will need to fill out any forms or applications at the session, so you can have all the information you need with you.

      1. Nesprin*

        Yes this. Coast and sciences is not equal to southeast and business. My go to (engineering, west coast) would be traditional biz casual: dark slacks (cos labs), dressy top and blazer.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        Yes – for physics I would wear non-jean slacks, comfortable non-runner shoes, and a nice non-tshirt top, and might take a blazer along, depending on the season. I also wouldn’t be wearing makeup or carrying a purse. I’d have a messenger bag or backpack for my laptop, notebook and other accessories. (My usual work attire is jeans or shorts and a tunic top, plus runners or hiking boots).

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve been in higher ed for most of my life at this point. Here’s what I do- I try to always dress in three pieces (or one and dress). That means, top, pants or skirt and something over the top. Maybe that’s a cardigan or jacket. Sometimes, it’s a kimono type top (especially in the heat of summer) or a scarf, but I always try to look like I have on an “outfit” and not just clothing. That means things coordinate well, but aren’t matching like a suit would be.

      As for this event, I wouldn’t worry about being more formally dressed than your professors. The truth is that most students don’t own a lot of business clothing and don’t know what it really looks like. And professors are remarkably forgiving of such things, also have an astonishing range of clothing habits.

      (I work in at a conservative college in the South. Your milage may vary.)

    8. The New Wanderer*

      I’d lean toward the business formal side of business casual (because of the industry people, they’re more likely to see you as one of them if you look more like them than an academic).
      So IME that would be professional-looking top (button-down blouse or fine-knit sweater), suit-type skirt or nice slacks, and blazer or nice cardigan that you can remove if it’s making you look too formal. Pearls might read as a bit formal, jeans as too informal.

  177. Anon for this*

    Dealing with burnout in a new job

    I started a new job about 4 months ago, having worked at my previous company for about 5 years. For the last 3 years of that I had very little time off, had to be ‘on call’ (and did frequently get called) during any PTO I was able to take, etc. I was totally burned out by the end.

    New job is good but I haven’t been able to take much PTO being so new and I’m already on critical projects with tight deadlines. I’m seeing the results of the burnout still in the new job – can I ask for PTO or talk to the boss about it? How to handle it? I’m getting increasingly tired and my mental health is suffering again (long history of anxiety and depression)

    From their perspective I’ve only been working on this stuff 4 months, but from my point of view it’s been 3.5 years with no downtime. (I finished the old job on the Friday and started here on the Monday so no real ‘vacation’ in between, just a weekend.)

    1. Agent J*

      Are you asking to take PTO because you haven’t accrued enough yet or because you’re being mindful of your tight deadlines?

      If it’s the former, I think you can ask them for a day off without going into detail about the burnout from your former job. They don’t need to know why you want PTO beyond a vague or general reason. Not sure what you’re PTO policies are but some places will let you take some PTO “in advance” before you’ve had time to accrue it.

      If it’s the latter, have a conversation with your boss about wanting some time off. You can reference stress or an illness without going into specifics. That way, you both can look at your deadlines and plan for coverage when you’ll be out. (Note: This is highly dependent on what kind of boss you have and if you feel comfortable having this conversation with them.)

      2. Anon for this*

        I don’t care (within reason) whether the time off is “paid” as I’m lucky to be paid well and have savings (I’m in my late 30s and single so have a good amount of working life behind me already and no family-related expenses) so my concern is more about the ‘optics’ of taking time off when new to a job, especially as we work in ‘Sprint’/’Agile’ with constant 2-week cycles of deliverables to meet the goals of the project.

        We have the Big Deadline of “Friday 29th April” for the initial thing we have to produce, with 2-week deadlines in between that date and now, and then likely for the few months after the Big Deadline we will have to support the inevitable issues etc that come up.

        I think a day off would be approved but it’s more that I haven’t had a longer (a week, for example) break from work for over 3 years. But most of that isn’t NewCompany’s doing.

        1. WellRed*

          You’ve only been there 4 months. A week off would be unusual so soon. After all, it’s the old job you burned out on. I hope to never leave a job on Friday and start a new one on Monday, burnout or not.

          1. Friday afternoon fever*

            I left on a Wednesday and started on a Thursday once…. mistake! (It made sense for my situation, but I also regretted it.)

            Can you do 2-3 days off? Long weekend? What is your company culture around PTO

  178. ket*

    Also late to the party. I’m in academia, considering a switch to industry. If I want to start, say, a data science job in September (in an ideal world) when would I start applying for jobs? Now? I have an irrational fear that the perfect job will come along and they’ll want me to start in April if I apply now, but the semester ends in May, and I have a hangup about this. I know this is irrational. Thanks if anyone has input!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Honestly, if the ideal job opens up and they can’t delay by a month, do you really want to work there? Start from the assumption that your job hunt will take more, not less time than you think it will.

      1. ket*

        Thanks for your advice — it echoes what I heard from someone else, but he works in government & I know about the ludicrous hiring process he has to navigate (it almost makes state government look nimble :) ).

    2. anongradstudent*

      Omg! I can actually help with this! I’m in the same boat and just got a tentative offer for a statistician position (so pretty similar as data analyst).

      Start applying now, but make it clear upfront if you get interviewed that you wouldn’t be able to start until september. Some places are notoriously slow in the hiring process (like the govt) and others that aren’t so slow will still understand that your start date is related to your graduation date. You can mention having some internship or whatever that’s mandatory over the summer, if that question comes up, but they likely won’t even ask why. If they’re interviewing you, it means they want you, so you can feel more comfortable bringing those points up.

      The other reason for this is that, even with the supposedly great economy, I know a lot of people still having trouble finding good jobs. That is, they’re getting offers but are being crazy lowballed. My friend who is about to graduate with her phd (now has a BA and Masters) was offered a 28k position as an analyst (which was the lowest end of the pay scale they posted, and she’s way overqualified). So the longer you give yourself to find the right position, the better.

      Also, congratulations! Academia is the fucking worst! Welcome to having your weekends and evenings back!

      1. ket*

        Congrats, anongradstudent! I’ve graduated already, but since I’m teaching I think it would make sense to people that I’d want to finish the semester. Might show that I’m responsible & thoughtful, I guess. And since I have a job that I can continue next year, I do have the luxury of looking for the right position instead of needing to balance paycheck with perfection.

        That is a really low salary your friend was offered. Dang. I’m looking to switch in part because I’d like at least a 40% raise and that is very hard to get at a public institution.

  179. Undecided in Higher Ed*

    Good Afternoon all. I’m a staff member in a university, which we will call Teapot University. I was hired last summer to fill a newly created role to serve two departments, The Department of Teapot Repair and the Department of Teapot Affairs. The workload in both are growing exponentially and it makes more since to have one full time role for each department (instead of a shared full-time roll). The repair department already shared that they would be happy to make me full time, and while the work there is exciting there is a high staff turnover, and some disgruntled colleagues. Four people have left since I started, one of which was my boss. The affairs department work is more predictable, less exciting but definitely in my wheelhouse, and I really like my colleagues (some which have been there for over 10 years) but they would only be able to bring me on for four days a week. But I don’t think I mind that because I’ve been thinking of going back to school at TU and flexible schedule would help. The decision is now up to me and I don’t know how to decide, both departments want me to come onboard. Thoughts on how to choose?

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Any differences on salary? Do you get along with your boss in Teapot Repair? What’s causing the turnover/unhappiness there? Would you be able to go back to school and be in Teapot Repair at the same time? Is there opportunities for growth in both departments or one in particular?

      I always like writing out my pros and cons, that might help you decide! Good luck!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm… tough call. How would working four days a week impact your health insurance or pay? That would be a big factor for me.

      From your letter, it sounds like you really want the Affairs department, but maybe I’m misreading that.

      1. Undecided in Higher Ed*

        The hourly rate would be the same. I currently don’t have a boss in Teapot Repair. I’m not quite sure what is causing turnover/unhappiness, I think some tension between staff and the leadership (chairs and vice chairs of the departments). But since I’m only there part of the time, I dont really hear much watercooler talk. I’m not sure if there is much room for growth in either. I work as a communication coordinator, and in order to grow I would mostly have to land in the Office of Communications for Teapot University.

        I would still be eligible for all benefits at four days a week. I would prefer to work with the Teapot Affairs team, but I find the work in Teapot Repair more exciting. Teapot Repair does more external communication and storytelling, whereas Teapot Affairs is internal communication.

  180. KatieKate*

    I have the possibility to move into an apartment on the same block as my office.

    Pros: literally 1 minute commute, ability to run home and check on a potential future dog, nice building and neighborhood.

    What cons am I missing?

    1. anongradstudent*

      So, I’ve been living next to my work for a while and mostly love it. But there are definitely some cons:
      – If you ever call out “sick” it could be a little awkward if you’re seen out and about.
      – If you have trouble getting into gear with work (I do) it’s super tempting to go home and do things more often than you really need to, and can make being productive a little harder.
      -… I actually can’t think of too many others. It sounds like a great deal for you, especially if the neighborhood is nice! (and if you’re not a spaz like I am, haha)

      1. valentine*

        The office could move far enough to be a burden.

        Until then, do it, enjoy, and lock down your boundaries. No answering the door or the phone, no reasons why you’re not available. Maybe develop your no-off-hours/no-weekends rep now.

    2. whistle*

      Will your coworkers automatically know you live there and do they trample boundaries? If so, you could get odd favor requests (I forgot my lunch, do you have any snacks at home you could grab? Can I hang out at your place for an hour after work while I wait on my ride?).

      The only other con I can think of is that you might run into coworkers more while you are out and about (and not “on”)

      But really, these pale in comparison to the pros!!

    3. animaniactoo*

      Does your job ever pressure people to come in on their days off? Because if so, being 1 minute away might really mean them digging in to a no response with a negotiation that could get really tiring “You’re right down the block. Can’t you at least come in for an hour?”

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Yeah when I lived very close it was always put on me to come open the office on snow days or deal with after hours issues that cropped up, since I could literally walk

    4. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      One con that I know of: if your work has a support/extra-hours component, it will be super tempting for your employer to call you anytime there’s an issue and they need *someone* to come in on an evening/weekend. “She lives on the same block anyway”. I worked with a guy who lived 5 minutes from the office and saw our work do it to him all.the.damn.time. “Oh let’s have Reginald come in, he lives next door anyway” (call Reginald at nine PM on his off-call week) (repeat the next week). He ended up moving into a house on the opposite end of our metro area, 40ish miles from work.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Possibilities:
      – Perceived constant availability as you don’t have to travel (“popping in” on days off?)
      – (Depending on personality) lack of boundary between home and work – e.g. my commute is about 45 mins allowing getting into “work mode”
      – You’ll always be the one to cover during snow days (if relevant) etc
      – Unlikely to be able to “work from home” if its discretionary
      – if you were laid off etc is it a commutable distance to other offices for a different employer.

    7. Marion Ravenwood*

      In my old job, the manager of one of the teams I worked with lived in a flat above our office. His only con was that it often meant he stayed late, as he didn’t have far to travel so would end up staying a bit longer ‘just to finish X’. So I’d say that being really clear about when you’re going home and not staying unnecessarily longer because you can be home in one minute, as opposed it taking an hour (or having to wait 10/15 minutes if you miss the next train etc) is something to think about.

  181. I Want My Paid Holidays*

    I work for a large non-profit that has a HQ and smaller offices around the country/world. I’m in one of those smaller offices and we currently have five full-time employees and an interim ED. We’ve been without a real ED for going on nine months now and when the interim came on, he said that he didn’t want to make big changes bc he wouldn’t be here very long. The one thing he decided to focus on was our employee handbook…and taking away HALF of our paid holidays! Before, we were getting 10 and he thinks that’s too many, we should only get five. He has been involved with our non-profit for years, but never worked in one before. Having more paid time off is one of our major perks. We all still have vacation and sick time. The days we would lose are MLK day, President’s Day and a few others. We’ve tried explaining it to him, but he doesn’t listen. What can we do? Should we talk to the board? Or just suck it up and take the hit now and maybe bring it up with the new ED?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Talk to the board. Immediately. Explain that he doesn’t seem to understand that this would be a big change as far as employees are concerned. It will be much harder to get those reinstated when you get a new ED if that search takes awhile.

      1. WellRed*

        And remember. In the US 10 paid federal holidays (give or take a day) is quite Normal and standard and expected. Cutting that in half is beyond the pale.

    3. LittleMissCrankyPants*

      Paid time off is part of your benefits package and essentially part of your salary. He shouldn’t have the authority to just waltz in and cut y’alls’ pay like that. Talk to the board immediately! They may be unaware of his plans.

  182. crinkly spine*

    Hey, hope I’m not too late to the party to get some good advice…

    I’m physically disabled and most “just get a job” jobs aren’t possible for me (retail, etc). I’ve been out of work for … years, at this point. My previous job was a work from home thing in a field I can’t name specifically but was a field I specifically went to school for. Unfortunately, it was a job working for a horribly abusive partner, who eventually discarded me and fired me more or less at once when I was no longer convenient. That’s pretty much cut me out of the field, where ex-partner has a big name (like a micro version of CK getting women chased out of comedy).

    I don’t know what to do. I’m applying to a grad school program for a subject that, ultimately, would get me jobs that don’t rely on my physical exertion, but I’m not so sure I’m enthusiastic about the subject and the program is three years long. Ideally I need to find a remote job, but honestly, I’ll do anything I am actually able to do. I’m so lost. I’ve looked at career counseling, but it seems like most people advertising that service are sketchy at best, scammy at worst. I went to my college’s career counseling and they just hammered on how I’d have to start out in unpaid internships, which a) won’t make money b) aren’t guaranteed to go anywhere that makes money and c) often demand the kind of physical exertion I’m just not capable of.

    If anyone has any advice I’d be so grateful. I’ve considered writing in to Alison but I don’t know if this is really worth her time. Thank you so much.

    1. animaniactoo*

      #1 This absolutely sounds like a question that would be worth Alison’s time.

      #2 Is there a field adjacent to your previous field that you would be able to bring your work experience to? Far enough away that you might have some contacts for networking, but not be subject to the blacklisting?

      #3 Is there an org in your area that you could contact that works with matching people with disabilities with jobs? Anything that could help along those lines?

      I may think of more stuff, but wanted to list these as a start to digging in to see what might be possible.

      1. crinkly spine*

        Thank you so so much for your reply. #2 – not that I’m aware of in any meaningful way–the field I worked in is pretty tight-knit and the adjacent fields are HEAVILY biased towards “who you know” type job-finding. They’re also all heavily male dominated, and unfortunately for me, I’m a woman. I also have functionally no references because of the combined isolation and badmouthing of the previous partner (plus taking credit for work I did, to a degree–some things I did never had my name on them publicly, so hard to take credit for with no references to back me up).

        #3 – I’ve looked into these somewhat and the ones that I’ve found have been very kind, but almost entirely dedicated to finding jobs for people with mental disabilities, often jobs that require physical exertion. The remaining few I tend to get disqualified from for not being disabled ENOUGH. I can walk, stand, sit, etc, I just have a bad spine and a chronic pain and fatigue condition, but because it isn’t visible and doesn’t require a visible assistive device, I tend to get “we don’t really have anything for you.” I’ve looked for remote-specific job sites/listings/etc, but those tend to be either extremely specialized fields (programming in specific languages, for example) or pay far below minimum wage (transcription at cents on the word). I’ve considered trying to teach myself something like CSS/HTML5, because I know there are online programs for stuff like that, but it’s pretty daunting and although I took some classes in college, it’s been a long time since I did anything like that.

        Again, thank you so much, just getting such a kind reply has me tearing up. I appreciate it more than I can say.

        1. valentine*

          Mass marketing, transcription, online tutoring, medical office receptionist (if check-in or -out only, no walking the patients around). Search this site for work-from-home and freelance jobs. I could see this question being an Ask the Readers that would get a great response, especially if you can specify you can sit for x hours, stand for y minutes, and move y distance without aid.

          1. crinkly spine*

            Thank you so much, those are all wonderful ideas! I’ve found that transcription jobs tend to be so poorly paid as to be unfeasible but I might have been looking in the wrong places. I’ll do some research about all the stuff you’ve mentioned. When you say an Ask the Readers, do you mean sending it in to Alison or posting comments on a specific post? Sorry, I’ve only been reading AAM for a few months (but it’s such a great site!)

      2. crinkly spine*

        Sent a reply, but it isn’t showing up–guessing it got caught in moderation? Short version is #2 – fields adjacent are heavily who-you-know jobfinding and biased towards men, which I’m not. Wouldn’t have references, either, because of horrible partner. #3 – Have looked, but the orgs I’ve found have been geared towards helping people with mental disabilities find jobs, most of which are pretty physical.

        And thank you thank you thank you. Your response means so much to me.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Are there any orgs that work explicitly for the type of issue that you have? A friend of mine in a similar boat started that way, first by volunteering unfortunately but at least they were the expert in what someone with their issue needed.

          1. crinkly spine*

            Not that I’ve found. In addition to having messed-up discs in my back (and migraines, and a terrible immune system, but those aren’t usually issues) I have fibromyalgia, and maybe it’s my poor researching, but a lot of the fibro resources I’ve found have been either just support groups, or very… essential oils. Maybe I’m missing something, though–it wouldn’t be the first time! And thanks so much, I really appreciate the response.

            1. animaniactoo*

              The support groups probably have people who have dealt with your “can’t just get any job” issues! They may be a gold mine of resources/advice even if they can’t directly help you.

              1. crinkly spine*

                I’ve taken part in some support groups, yeah. Unfortunately it’s mostly been advice about how to try to get on disability. I have a family member who used to work on the other side of disability and they’re pretty confident I wouldn’t make the cut-off. I haven’t found much advice for actually finding jobs, but you’re right and I will ask around/ask again. Thank you!

        2. animaniactoo*

          Do you feel comfortable discussing the physical limitations you have? That might help point towards types of jobs that you’re maybe not thinking of but could reasonably be done.

          Also, what *skills* do you have, both in general, and from the previous job? What kind of work do you like to do? What kind of work interests you?

          Adjacent fields – male biased but that doesn’t mean no opportunity, just less opportunity, yeah? Is there a real drawback to trying to crack one of them? Do you have any who-you-knows that might be able to get you an edge at all in those fields? Asking because while it seems like it may not be a fruitful path, if nothing else is getting you anywhere, then it sounds like there’s not a lot of harm in at least trying (I mean, apart from self-worth rejections, but then you can at least comfort yourself that you knew it was a longshot?)

          1. crinkly spine*

            I have fibro, a terrible back (herniated disc, other discs that are, metaphorically, rubbing their hands and looking for an opportunity) and migraines. So I’m basically in pain and fatigued all the time. Anything that requires more from me than some minimal walking around (say, from desk to conference room, etc) tends to require more time recovering than the task took. So if I could push myself through, e.g. a part-time shift at Target, such a substantial portion of my time would be taken up with getting my strength up for the next shift that I would end up taking more days off than working. It’s a mess.

            Skills: I’ve done art direction, product design and production (working w/ freelancers and manufacturers, not totally on my own), lots and lots of scheduling, editing and copyediting, social media work, even some loose-ends type work that’s more or less adjacent to game development. I can’t talk specifically about it without it being too identifiable, but I also ran a type of offshoot from the main company for a couple years, which involved managing a lot of people on very tight schedules, and I enjoyed it–it helped that I had just an amazing team. I’m excellent with words and writing, I have some useful software proficiencies, fantastic analytical skills and I know a ton about books and media and media analysis. I can also be funny. Not that these comments show any of this.

            Adjacent fields: I haven’t spoken to anyone related to old-job or ex-awful-partner in more than three years. As soon as I was dumped/fired, I shut down. I don’t want to discuss the steps that ex-partner took in detail but he was very thorough in making sure that I was cut out. I don’t feel I could contact anyone I knew from those days; I also had enough of a public-facing position that I dealt with a LOT of targeted abuse/harassment (think people targeted by GG) so I don’t have a LinkedIn, etc, and I’m allergic to putting my name out there–it’s terrifying. You’re absolutely right that there’s no harm in trying, but it’s scary. And I don’t know who I’d contact who would care about the job(s) I used to do without also being close enough to ex-partner that I couldn’t trust them.

            Sorry this is so vague; thanks for your support though, I REALLY appreciate it.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Okay, drilling down here – so you could do a desk job that didn’t require much lower body movement?

              Are you able to sustain a full-time position that you could sit down out at?

              Basically what I’m thinking based off what you’ve given here so far is that you could look into data entry, receptionist/admin (especially something like an admin job that required light marketing skills or something of the sort)*, lower level project manager (traffic coordinator), or looking into being trained for something like medical receptionist/billing or hospital switchboard. For interim work cafeteria cashier work can often be done sitting down. Or really any type of cashier work where the main thing the cashier is doing is taking a ticket and payment (movie theaters!) and giving a receipt.

              Some of that you might want to try and get an in by signing up for and work through temp/staffing agencies – if nothing else it gets you more recent and relevant experience on your resume. Other stuff smaller places would probably be willing to train in return for getting someone at a lower salary, particularly if you can bring enough skills to be useful in other areas while being trained.

              Based on what you’ve detailed here about previous profession – I would NOT try the field adjacent. It does sound like there would be harm in terms of mental/emotional ability to deal with any new fallout so it does not make sense to stir that up – I suspect you might find to your surprise that there would be people willing to believe/support your side, but without a place to start it would be risky.

              Does any of this sound useful at this point? What sounds feasible and what doesn’t?

              *If you could find something in this realm in the publishing industry somewhere it sounds like that might be a great fit.

              1. crinkly spine*

                It seems like some of my comments are just getting 100% eaten. Agh. Retyping.

                I could definitely do a desk job, assuming it was a reasonable office atmosphere where I could move around from my desk once in a while. I have applied–or did apply–for a LOT of the jobs you’re naming: lots of admin assistant stuff, entry-level positions that mostly needed someone with technological and verbal literacy. In fact just after I lost my job I was pretty intense on the job search for the first 2 years. But over time and the incredible lack of responses I got, it’s just been something that’s almost entirely fallen by the wayside. The huge gaps in my resume surely don’t help; I also live near a number of colleges, so those types of position are very, very easy to fill, especially with young people who might be perceived as easier to use by employers.

                Honestly, I’d love to work in publishing–it would be perfect for me. But I can’t really move (too many health ties to where I am, plus personal ones, plus I get health insurance through the state), which is also hard.

                I’ve been signed up to two local temp agencies and despite checking in regularly… nothing. I don’t know if they’re not finding stuff that fits my parameters or they just don’t think I’d be good enough for the jobs, but who knows.

                The thing about the old field and adjacent ones is, yeah–I’m also confident there are people who would believe me and support me. If nothing else, the behavior of the ex and the other people who harmed me (it was… not a healthy company) is pretty publicly not awesome. I was frequently used as his human credentials, if you know what I mean. But anything that involves contact with those people is going to be upsetting for me and anything involving my name publicly is likely to re-start the abuse from fans. Even with support, I don’t know. So… I guess just thank you for validating that feeling. It’s a bummer, but it helps to hear it from someone else too.

                Intellectually, all of it sounds feasible. But on a gut level I fear I’m going to have to find some program and make a big field switch to get anywhere, because my resume does not look good right now. (Of course, during the multiple years of basically no work (couple tiny things), I also lost multiple family members, was diagnosed with a chronic health issue, etc, etc–it’s been a really terrible few years.) It just feels like I’ll never be independent again; like I’m a waste product. Capitalism + disability is a fun place to be.

                1. animaniactoo*

                  I hear you re: Capitalism + disability.

                  Question: How are you addressing the gaps in your resume in your cover letters?

                  Also – are those the only two temp agencies around? What’s their rep like in general?

                  Based on what you’ve said here – I wonder if it might be possible to tentatively put out some feelers in the old/field adjacent areas, and work with therapist on how to deal any new hornet’s nest effects? It might be that with support, you’d find it easier to find ways to navigate that, including creating whatever messaging you’d want to put out in response. Possible to explore with therapist?

                  Otherwise, it sounds like you’ve got some good paths to play with from here – the fibro support groups, vocational rehab, virtual assistant.

                  Community here is great, so while I rarely make the Friday threads these days, you’ll also find a lot of support here, and I’ll try and check back for your username at least and see if there’s anything else I can suggest or help tease out, etc.

          2. crinkly spine*

            I replied with a super-long response and I think it’s in moderation again–I am not an experienced commenter here, will it likely be posted eventually? I’d really prefer not to keep retyping things if possible! Any advice on how to get comments through?

            1. animaniactoo*

              Sometimes it just trips up – to the point that I e-mailed Alison a few weeks ago to ask if the system was snagging more comments or if something that I was doing made her want to take a look at my comments before letting them through. She responded that it was just the system.

              If you posted any links at all, that will trip the moderation. On average, the reply should appear within the hour and I can make sure to keep checking back over the weekend if you’d like?

              1. crinkly spine*

                …and that reply got eaten too. No links. I would appreciate you checking back SO much–seriously, thank you so much for talking about this with me, and for your kindness and supportive suggestions!

                1. animaniactoo*

                  No problem! You’re very welcome. I am working tomorrow and won’t be on from about 11 am to 5 pm or so, so don’t get discouraged if it takes me a long time to reply to something during that time period.

      3. Sloan Kittering*

        FWIW I think if you’re already lukewarm on a field, I wouldn’t keep pursuing grad school opportunities right now. Grad school is a slog and is really expensive as you know, and in my experience is kind of oversold as a problem solver for career woes. If you knew you’d love career X because you did it successfully for a few years but have now hit the ceiling of advancement and someone explicitly told you a master’s would help, then yes definitely. Or at least you’re so passionate about the subject you’d be excited to spend 2-3 years digging into it even if it DIDN’T lead to career opportunities.

        1. crinkly spine*

          Good call and I completely agree. I finished and sent in the application recently because I’d been working on the materials for so long anyway and sending in the application didn’t cost anything, but I’m seriously reconsidering what would happen if I actually got in. It is a different field, one that I’m interested in, but really not sure the interest is enough to get me through 3+ years and into a job. Thank you–it helps to hear that from an outside source.

        2. OtterB*

          I was thinking this too. I’d be hesitant to launch into a 3 year program when you weren’t sure it was something you really wanted.

    2. KR*

      Are you just looking for ANY job? I know Amazon and Expedia/Egencia does remote customer service. I’ve talked to employees all across the US. Sorry you’re going through this -_-

      1. crinkly spine*

        Thank you so much for your suggestion and your empathy, I really appreciate it–everyone’s kindness in these comments has totally floored me. I’ll look up those, I like talking to people and can fake a cheerful voice so maybe I could at least pick that up for now. Thank you so much, I hope your weekend is wonderful.

    3. OtterB*

      In Maryland and probably in other states there is a Department of Vocational Rehabilition that helps people with disabilities of all kinds find jobs or retrain for jobs. Or, even though you already have a degree, a community college might have a certificate program that would give you a foot in the door of a new field.

      Good luck with it.

      1. crinkly spine*

        Thank you! Last time I checked I didn’t qualify for vocational rehab but it’s a good thought and I will check again–and look at community colleges. Thank you so much.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Hi – just wanted to check that you’d seen my response to your long post again that eventually came through? Just wanted to double check because you’ve responded to other posts in the thread but not that one.

          1. crinkly spine*

            Sorry, I’d left a response but it seems to have gotten either wholly eaten or hugely delayed. The second one I sent went through though. Thank you SO much, I really appreciate it.

      2. ..Kat..*

        Short-ish training programs at community colleges: medical assistant (frequently work in doctors offices – so no lifting or moving of patients), phlebotomist, court reporter (must be able to type fast – might be too much sitting in one position for too long for you.

        Any community colleges in your area? A website or catalog could list careers that they can train you for. This could give you ideas.

        Good luck.

    4. anonagain*

      Hey. I don’t have advice, really, just commiseration. I left a really terrible work situation and I am struggling to find my way back into the workforce. It’s hard, because as you say, most of the paths to work require a lot of physical capacity.

      I am so sorry you are going through this.

      1. crinkly spine*

        Thank you so much. Knowing that other people are experiencing this too is a mix between “kind of a bummer” and “sort of reassuring.” Good luck, I hope you find something wonderful really soon.

    5. WellRed*

      Have you dealt with the residual trauma of the abusive relationship? I trust you know what you are talking about, but not being able to reach out to anyone in your former field or use LinkedIn? We see lots of letters here from folks afraid to quit because their horrible boss will “make sure you’ll never work in this town again!” Also, agree with other comments about grad school. No.

      1. crinkly spine*

        Still in therapy. Dealing with it. The lack of LinkedIn etc is due more to partner’s fans than the partner himself. I received GG style stalking, abuse, harassment etc. Would rather not talk about it tbh.

    6. JaneB*

      Just posting with some empathy – no advice, sorry! My own physical and mental health limitations are kind of trapping me in a difficult job because despite all the issues here, I have enough of a track record and know people well enough that they overlook things like when I’m having a particularly creaky day and have to get someone to bring a lab stool somewhere so I can perch instead of stand, or me automatically getting to bag the most “easy” role at outdoor/active events all the time, or me going home with a migraine randomly, and I really doubt in a new job I’d get away with that…

      Plus the constant thinking ahead is exhausting!

      From the things you list, is it worth looking at some of those virtual assistant type roles? I don’t know much about them, but what I’ve read suggests you have the right sort of skills.

      Good luck! And come back next week & tell us how you are getting on!

      1. crinkly spine*

        Thank you so much for this kind response, I’d give you a hug if I could (and you wanted one). I’m sorry you’re feeling trapped in your job, but it does sound like a benefit to be treated with respect for your needs. But YES the thinking ahead… OK, I need to go grocery shopping, so I have to make sure I’ll have time to rest after, but mornings are when I’m extra-creaky so it can’t be too early, etc etc. God, it’s exhausting. And having to weigh, every time, when someone asks you if you want to do something or whatever, “how much do I feel like explaining right now?” So tiring.

        I also don’t know much about virtual assistant roles! I’ll have to do some Googling! Thank you for the suggestion, though :)

  183. Donna Noble*

    I commented last week about my job being all super boring because I had already trained my replacement but I was waiting for my federal job to start. Replacement was out for her birthday on Wednesday. Turns out, she is just doing enough work to slide by and a LOT of things have actually been falling through the cracks. So retraining has commenced. And I have confirmation that even if gov’t offices open yesterday, my job won’t start until at least February 4th :/

  184. Jr. Woodworker*

    First, thank you in advance for reading this wall of text (I hope this doesn’t break a rule by being so long). I’m hoping for advice and experiences from women working in heavily male-dominated industries, especially (but not only) the trades or other physical work.

    Background: I’m in my mid-20s, I just completed an industrial woodworking program in December. Since then, I’ve received about a dozen callbacks, but then it goes badly: I’m not only a woman, I’m a small one (5’2″). Or, conversely, I’m not only small, I’m also a woman. Male interviewers tell me “just by looking at you I can tell you’ll struggle,” and/or assume I can’t do the things that my resume+portfolio+diploma clearly say I can do (very sceptically asking if I can use a table saw, for e.g.). Or they’re super surprised and dismayed when I pick up the phone/walk in the door, and then just…don’t interview me–this is vague but I swear it happens; they’ll just sit there silently and glumly until I unprompted tell them what I can do.

    (For reference my name is foreign so most people can’t tell I’m a woman just from my resume. Also I fully accept I’m weaker than a lot of woodworkers and this is a disadvantage, but I can lift up to 40-50lbs comfortably–what most postings ask for–and am doing strength training, which I tell people)

    – How do you deal with interviewers who clearly don’t want to hire or even interview you?
    – How do you avoid selling yourself short? I know school’s not the real world, but I swear I have talent/skills. I was top of my class and I’m repping my college at a provincial skilled trades competition in May. The only place that’s interested in me is a production factory, and there’s room for growth, but many of my male peers (of ALL skill levels) have already found work in actual shops.
    – Can I ask instructors to recommend me somewhere, or is this overstepping? My prof told me unprompted that he really wants to place me in a good shop because of my skills but it’s ‘difficult in my case because of my size and my being female’ (I know I know). He is keeping an eye out for stuff. I do know my other instructors also really like me and think I have a lot of potential. Can I ask for help in my search? I worry that it’ll make me seem both pathetic and entitled.
    – Finally, how do you stay positive? I made this career switch knowing what I’d be facing (my sister and a lot of female friends are in tech) but…damn.

    THANK you so much for any advice/feedback/stories of your own experiences. I really appreciate it.

    1. animaniactoo*

      I would push back against the people who show disbelief stating that you’d like some sort of trial opportunity to show what you’re capable of from a physical perspective. Is there something they can have you do as a test?

      “Can you use a table saw?”
      “Yes. Do you have one available that I can demonstrate on for you?”

      “Do you have a small project I could demonstrate my skills on for you? Do you need time to set that up? I could come back tomorrow if you need.”

      Letting instructors recommend you/asking for help – it’s not weak to get help getting a foot in the door. It’s a path forward. The goal is to prove to whomever that they weren’t wrong to take a chance on you or whatever. Repay both the person who helps you and the person who accepts you by making it a positive experience for them.

      1. Jr. Woodworker*

        Oh, thanks! To be honest it never occurred to me to push back beyond ‘yes here’s my portfolio’, but I will try this next time–nothing to lose!

        Noted on the ‘asking for help’ thing too, thanks :)

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          You absolutely can ask instructors for recommendations! That’s standard across a lot of industries.

    2. Call me St. Vincent*

      This is super bothering me but you should really consider calling the EEOC (when the government reopens) because they can do testing for gender discrimination and go after these jerks who are flagrantly discriminating against you for being a woman.

      1. Jr. Woodworker*

        Thank you! I’m in Canada, but honestly…the sexism in trades (woodworking is one of the better ones LOL) is so rampant that I can’t even imagine combating it in that way at the start of my career. Plus I genuinely -am- physically small, and that’s an easy thing for employers to point to. And it does impact my ability to do some jobs. I don’t know. I might be making excuses.

        Thanks for your reply though, honestly, it’s very much appreciated :)

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      One: Absolutely leverage your relationships. People who have seen how you can perform are your best bet to get a position. It’s not pathetic or entitled, it’s what we all have to do.

      Two: There may be certain types of jobs within the field where the assumption you have to be big and strong are less, maybe you can target those first and prove yourself?

      Finally, a friend of mine under similar circumstances altered her resume to appear MORE female, because she wanted to weed out employers like this who were just wasting her time. So her name was gender neutral and she invented a more feminine nickname for herself and used that in her resume (and went on to use it in her career, in fact) as well as highlighting “best female javelin thrower in the 2012 Olympics” or some other conspicuously female accomplishments at the top. It sucks that she had to do it but at least she wasted less of her time.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Seconding point #1 – people in most or all fields use their connections to help further their careers. When my application through normal channels stalled out, I got fast-tracked for an internship by mentioning it to a professor and having him recommend that I contact his colleague the supervising manager and name-drop him. My current job is due in part to another professor soliciting his students to apply for the company, after the company specifically asked him if he had any quality applicants.

        In your case specifically it might help to have your (known-quantity) professors/instructors lobby on your behalf, and cut through some of the more overt signs that potential employers might not take you seriously based on their superficial reactions. “Strong portfolio + comes highly recommended by X” is a really good combination to have.

      2. Jr. Woodworker*

        Thanks SK and TNW. It’s a relief to see people’s responses to the ‘connections’ thing. I do think that maybe recommendations would be what I need to cut through, as TNW put it, peoples’ superficial reactions specifically, but I think that was why I was so embarrassed about it. I’ll talk to my profs next week.

        And that’s an interesting point SK–I don’t have any sort of feminine nickname but maybe I will add a sewing section to my online portfolio. (I know men sew! But maybe seeing sewn, feminine-ish handbags on my page will give a different feel.)

        (SK, there’s def parts of the industry that work with smaller materials, and ideally that’s where I’d work! It’s just there’s fewer jobs there :) )

    4. Nesprin*

      Female in engineering here.
      1st- men have been using the old boy’s network since the dawn of time. Use your equivalent- if your instructors will help, let them. Likewise, your classmates will be getting jobs- ask them for help as well. Most faculty want their students to succeed and if you get 10 nos to 1 yes, you’re still ahead.
      1b- do you know other women in your field? If a firm has 1 woman its easier to bring on the 2nd.
      2nd- your portfolio will help you stay positive- I have a secret file of nice things that people have said about me for bad days. There is always space for people who do great work.
      3rd- you’re winning awards. Who is judging them? Where do they work? Can they hire you?
      4th- that sort of patronizing nonsense is best addressed head on. “can you do X?” “Yes, I’ve done Y classes in X, receiving this certification and as you can see from my portfolio I shine in it”. It won’t always work- stereotypes die hard but your goal is to get your foot in the door.
      5th- are you at the point/well enough equipped to pick up freelance work? Hang out your shingle?

      1. Jr. Woodworker*

        Thank you Nesprin! This is exactly the kind of advice (and questions for me to think about) I was hoping for.
        1) I will def speak to my old profs/instructors next week, and reach out to more classmates.
        1b) I’m in touch with…one, ha. But yes, I will talk to her about it. I think part of my issue is just that I’ve been SO embarrassed by how my interviews have gone. I’ve told my siblings and non-trade friends about how bad it is, but only one trade friend. Gotta get over that, if I want their help.
        2) Thank you for this tip! Will do.
        3) I haven’t won anything but school awards yet :p. The bigger competition is in May. But I guess that leads my back to my profs as well as the faculty I worked with on weekends.
        4) Awesome. This is great help. I haven’t been responding quite this strongly, but I will practice this kind of response before my next interview.
        5) Not yet (no equipment)! But I will figure out a way to do side-work sooner rather than later, now.

    5. LCL*

      Yes, ask your instructors for help with the job search. It’s obvious they think highly of your skills. Have your business cards ready at the competition in May.
      Have you considered applying at municipalities? Does Canada have rules about minority workforce for government contracts? If yes, find out who the contractors are that get those contracts and apply there.

      1. Jr. Woodworker*

        Ha, I like the business cards suggestion :p.

        And no I hadn’t! This didn’t even occur to me–they probably do, I will look that up and will look into those kinds of contractors, too. Thanks :)

        1. LCL*

          I just checked by google. Your national government does have a minority contracting program. It’s called the Federal Contracts program.

    6. WellRed*

      Focus on what you can do. Honestly, the first time some dude says “I can tell you’d have trouble dling the job” return it to him. “Because I’m a woman?” Then, you can address specifics “the job calls for lifting 50 pounds, which I can comfortably do.”

      1. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

        Or even just “Why?”

        Dude: I can tell you’ll have trouble doing the job.
        You: [mildly curious] Why?
        Dude: [stumbles through weak-ass excuse, like “Uh… because you’re so short” or “Your hair is too long” or whatever.]
        You: [with the same facial expression and tone of voice you’d use to react to someone telling you something vaguely boring] Hmm. That’s never been a problem for me. [pivot to “Would you like a demonstration of my skills?” or “Here’s my portfolio” or “I was top of my class at Teapot Construction” or whatever]

        The key is to act like you’ve never heard this before in your life. Not like you’re shocked (“Well, I never!“), but like someone just told you that Kate Middleton is a Capricorn (“Huh, okay.”). You’re not accusing them of anything, you’re just… puzzled that such a thought would occur to them.

      2. Jr. Woodworker*

        Thanks WellRed and Book Badger. I will practice these responses. I think because there are genuinely some jobs I couldn’t do without injuring myself (the kinds that NEED a 6’+ 200lb+ person with long arms, of any gender) I’ve been hesitating to respond strongly to this kind of thing in case I seem out of touch/clueless (‘oh that delicate little lady didn’t see why she’d have trouble lifting sheetgoods! Ha!’). That and I hear these comments so often that I’ve been beginning to feel as though I really am wasting their time by interviewing for these jobs.

        But all your responses are reminding me that there are a few guys in my class only an inch or two taller than me (and not -much- more visibly buff) and I can’t imagine them getting this kind of reaction as much as I do. It -is- a gendered thing. I will try to address those comments with that in mind and as you say focus on what I can do, not be apologetic for what I can’t. Thanks so much for both of your help.

  185. anongradstudent*

    I have a (fairly nice?) problem I’d love people’s input on. About a week ago I received a tentative full time job offer that would start in the summer once the background check pans out. I already accepted that offer and they’re in the process of the screening check, etc. But then today I got another job offer for a part-time job that I applied for a few months ago, which would be an analyst for a state govt office. The PT job would pay pretty nicely (compared to my current salary which is below the poverty line) and would be a big help with paying of CC and saving up money prior to the full time job.

    Would it be shitty of me to take the PT job, knowing I would leave in a few months? Should I let the PT job hiring manager know of the situation before accepting? Or is it common and accepted that people can just leave with two weeks notice?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Yes, it would be shitty of you to take the PT job knowing you don’t intend to stay long if they intend for you to be staing longer. Because they’re investing resources in training you with that in mind. That said… if your financial situation is desperate rather than just temporarily hurting, people do what they have to do.

      If you’re temporarily hurting but can survive the few months, reach out to the hiring manager and ask if they’d still want you under these circumstances.

      Note: Think about what would happen if the tentative offer didn’t pan out. How confident are you that it will actually happen? If you’re at all shaky, say nothing and take the PT job now. If it does end up panning out, you can explain that it’s an opportunity you were hopeful about but not sure of and weren’t counting on but need to take since it is full time hours.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I’d also factor in that most government jobs take forever to hire for and involve a PITA amount of paperwork. So leaving unexpectedly in 6months is likely to be a bigger deal for them than for a private employer.

        No matter what you do, don’t misrepresent your intentions.

  186. Accounting Otaku*

    I need a gut-check here. I had a final interview with the owner of a company about a month ago. Two days later they asked me to fill out paperwork for a background check. I did right away. This was on the 14th right before Christmas. It was only supposed to take a few days to come back. I didn’t hear a peep from them in over a week. I check back in on the 26th to see if there’s anything else they need. On the 28th I get a reply saying they’re meeting early the next week to make the decision. I haven’t heard anything back from them since. Given that was last week and New Year’s, I’m trying to cut them some slack and be patient.
    I really want to check in one more time, but my gut says to move on and assume I didn’t get the job. Do I check in one last time?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Give them at least another week, check in once to ask if there’s any update on a decision, and then move on and assume you didn’t get the job unless you hear back from them.

  187. Lizzie*

    I have a question to pose to the group: I’ve been at a large company for only 2-ish months and I was put on a PIP already. I was pretty alarmed to find out as I know I’m new and still making rookie mistakes. Is this something I should take as a warning sign of things to come or try to come out the other end of it?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Take that as a sign of things to come. You can still try to come out the other end of it – but if they put you on a PIP it’s likely because you’re making more than the usual amount of rookie mistakes OR something like that your rookie mistakes are demonstrating a lack of judgment about when you need to ask for help and the mistakes end up being major ones from the perspective of the company.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Is there any kind of “probation” period (and policies that go with that) at your company as per their policies etc? I would think “rookie mistakes” etc would usually come into a probation period and you could talk about that with your boss normally if you have weekly catch-up or something like that. Can you talk to your boss? How did you “find out” you were “already” on a PIP?

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I had a boss try to put me on a PIP on my fourth day in office. It was the first warning sign that the job was a dumpster fire covered in bees: I didn’t have access to the computer systems required to do my job, and my staff still reported directly to her.

  188. New Techie*

    I’m consider a career switch and I’ve been teaching myself to code. To help develop my skills, I’ve been working on creating simple programs to automate some of my more tedious tasks (spreadsheet compilation). I mainly work on these off the clock, but I sometimes do spent my “work time” on time if I finish my other tasks quickly.

    Tips for revealing these projects to my coworkers? Whether, and how? I’m afraid of tipping my hand and having people figure out that I’ll eventual leave before I’m ready.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      What would be your goal in sharing these projects with your coworkers? Are there coding roles in your organization that you might want to move into? Or do you just want to share that you’ve done a cool thing? (A totally understandable sentiment.)

      If you really want to share with your current coworkers, can you focus on the “automate my tedious tasks” programs? That’s the sort of thing that can be shared as improving my efficiency/improving team efficiency/benefiting the current company.

      If you just want to show off that you made a cool thing, is there a meetup for beginning coders you could go to? In my area, a couple of different groups sponsor monthly code-togethers/project-time/hack-and-snack sessions for coders of all levels to get together, work on projects, ask for help, and share what they’re working on. It’s a good place to show off – “Look what I made” is a very common sentiment when you’ve just gotten something working.

      1. TechWorker*

        With the caveat that it might be difficult to share work stuff outside of work without breaching confidentiality, sure.

        There’s pros and cons to sharing – is it stuff your coworkers will also want to use? Is it stuff they *will* easily be able to use, and if not will you end up needing to support it? (do you have time for that/would your manager support it?)

        I doubt your manager would immediately jump to ‘about to leave’ is all you’re doing is making your job more efficient, but there may be other considerations re sharing!

    2. Anon Anon Anon*

      If you’ve written scripts that actually make your job easier, that stuff is worth money. If you’re new and learning on your own, it’s easy to overlook or under-estimate that. Which would be a mistake because you deserve what you’ve earned. I would look at those scripts as a product that you’ve developed – something that has a certain value, and also raises your value as an employee because it’s now on your list of accomplishments.

      Once you’ve tested the scripts and you’re sure they work well, decide how to present them to the company. It’s in your best interest to be strategic about this. Document their value – how well they work and how much time they’re saving you. Come up with a ballpark estimate of their worth as products. You don’t need to share this, but it’s good to keep in mind.

      If it were me, I would schedule a meeting with my boss and show him what I had done, then ask if the scripts could be shared with co-workers. Then use this as a reason to ask for a raise either then and there or later on. If the whole thing is a success, you should be given an appropriate raise for it. So it’s important to document it all and have the right person / people involved from the start.

  189. Luna*

    So…I’ve been at my new job two months and I’ve messed up pretty badly already. I got caught dozing off at my desk at least three times and abused the privilege of having my phone out enough to get reprimanded for that too. I feel really horrible and ashamed about it, especially since I JUST got reprimanded for the phone usage yesterday and I was determined to turn things around…and then a couple of hours ago I dozed off again. I know all of this is my fault, even though I wasn’t falling asleep on purpose (and I’m going to check and make sure it isn’t caused by anything medical, though I am/have been sick with a pretty bad respiratory infection this week). I’ve been beating myself up over it since the first time I dozed off, back in December, and I hate that I keep messing up so egregiously. Basically I just wanted to put these anxiety feelings somewhere my friends won’t see them (I’m horribly embarrassed and a couple of my close friends know, but no one else). Also I’d love some reassurance that I can turn this around and not be seen as a total fuckup by my managers?

    1. WellRed*

      You’re looking for reassurance but I dunno if this us salvageable. Can you pull your manager aside, apologize, and tell them you have a doc appt to rule out anything medical? Unfortunately, if you also have a no phone rule, well that’s a whole nother problem and I wonder why you can’t just turn your phone off and tuck it far, far away during work.

      1. WellRed*

        And tell mgr you take the phone thing seriously and it won’t hapoen again. Is the job just a bad fit for you on some unconscious level and that’s contributing to the behavior?

        1. valentine*

          The phone thing is easy to solve. If you’re alone in a space, not snoring, and no one is catching you dozing, cool down the space or wear thinner tops or fewer layers. Raise an arm that will jerk you awake if it falls. Sit in a way that requires some attention. Can you use a yoga ball? Take an online sleep disorder quiz. Can you reduce your hours or take other medical leave while you investigate?

    2. KR*

      You can bounce back from this but it goes without saying you really need to work at it. My advice would be to leave your phone in your car or in a desk drawer or in your bag/coat. Turn it off if you can. use your phone at lunch and it will be even more rewarding. Keep a reusable water bottle at your desk if you can and sip water regularly to stay awake. You may take more bathroom trips but hey, at least still be hydrated and awake. If you’re a caffeine drinker consider drinking coffee or tea. Even a small cookie, juice, or some fruit may wake you up because of the sugar. Make sure you’re getting enough sleep, or even more sleep than you think you need. If you start to feel yourself dozing off get up and use the bathroom, take a lap around your building or office, or do some stretches. Is it possible that you can modify your desk into a standing desk? Standing up me make it easier for you to stay awake and alert. I agree also that if you haven’t already you should go to your manager, tell them that you are taking this seriously, & you are making sure the cause isn’t medical. When all else fails matching how much it will really suck to get let go for this. You can do it I know you can. Hopefully in a couple years you’ll be remembering this and cringing but still happily employed.

      1. lammmm*

        When I’m trying to work on a report and am feeling sleepy, I “take the report on a walk/field trip to the” aka walking around with the print out, typically including a walk around the building with it. I find looking at, or even thinking about while staring at, something on paper while in a different environment helps me.

        It’s to the point now where my boss will ask if I’m done walking with a report/file/whatever to see if it’s ready to be finalized.

  190. Environmental Compliance*

    THE DUCKS ARE SO CUTE!!

    Good news: we’ve made an offer to a new Safety Person, who interviewed very well, and I’m hoping will integrate really well into our team. I am very much excited to get someone competent into the facility.

    Bad news: for some reason that is only logical to The Powers That Be, all of us in the main building (like, 9 of us) are being moved into an open office space. Right outside where all of our actual offices are, which will go unused. Why? No logical reason has been given, other than We Said So Because It Will Improve Communication. The desk tables are teensy. We have staff there now that pace the area to talk on the phone, loudly. There was one person who had communication issues, and that person has been fired. But, we need to do Something to Improve Communication, and instead of making it easier to communicate (i.e., redo the information filing system both paper and digital, require people to actually do their jobs, or hire more people to fill the very obvious gaps because there’s overloaded staff right now), we are just going to squash everyone into a tiny space to resentfully stare at our old offices and ignore each other by putting in headphones so *maybe* we can concentrate to work.

    *sigh* I think the biggest issue here, by far, is that the Parental Company just keeps making decisions on the fly, with absolutely no thought given to them, and scrambles everyone just to change their minds the next day, and pull it all again with a different cockamamie idea.

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      Oh my god.

      I think if I were moved to an open office I would quit. This is my hill and I will die here, you all are welcome to relocate to your inferior hill without me.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I seriously would consider moving to a different position if it was a change that stayed. I know right now my supervisor is fighting the change for a select few of us, me included, so I’m going to be optimistic until I hear differently. I *hate* open office plans. I get so, so very distracted, I cannot concentrate, and I will end up just putting in headphones. I also need a lot of table space for what I do, and there is no space. Everything will end up being poor quality, laggy work.

    2. Lucy*

      Do you think the higher ups would agree that people can use the outside offices for certain tasks such as external phone calls (etc)?

      I’m envisioning a situation where you all officially work in the open space, but actually only meet there for meetings and spend 90% of your work week in the outside offices on outside-office tasks.

      I’m not against open plan as a concept but it has to be for the right kind of teams in the right kind of roles. Any workplace that can’t provide privacy for individual work and shared space for collaboration simply isn’t going to get the best work from its employees.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That was suggested – and then we all chuckled that it in essence would make no real changes. But TPTB have decided that’s Not Good Enough.

        Additionally….we’re a manufacturing facility. I am my own department. So’s the engineer. And the safety person. We aren’t one department doing similar work, we’ve many departments all with the same basic goal – keep the plant running productively. But our work has significantly different levels of intersection across each position – I rarely, if ever, need to work with the corn buyers. My work doesn’t really intersect with them. When it does, I get out of my chair, walk 25 feet across the open space in the center, pull up a chair and we get what we need to done. That’s pretty much how we all are – with the exception of one person. Would I appreciate the engineer being closer in location, because whatever that department plans for projects, I need to permit? Uh, sure. Right now I go down 10 stairs. It’s not like I need to go across a building. Or, I pick up the phone and call, because heaven help me if TPTB will ever understand that a permit requires to know what we’re asking to be permitted, it’s not a blank check to do whatever you want.

  192. Atlantis*

    I’m a soon-to-be graduating Master’s student applying for my first job out of school. Have a question regarding work history.

    The jobs I’m applying for are typically state government laboratory jobs. One of the jobs I have seen recently asks for your entire work history, including periods of unemployment. I would include the graduate assistant jobs I’ve held through my two years of graduate school, but how early do I start? In my high school and undergraduate college years I only really held part-time or summer jobs in areas like retail and lifeguarding, do they want to know about that? I haven’t held any jobs that would be relevant to this position.

    So, as a graduating student, how far back do I go in my work history for an application like this? I don’t want to put a ton of information they wouldn’t care about, but also wouldn’t want to be rejected because I didn’t include this information. All positions I’m applying for require background checks.

    As an aside, I’m so grateful to this site and all of the commenters. I’ve been so concerned about starting my career, but I’ve learned so much about what to do, what not to do, and what to watch out for when it comes to jobs. So while I’m still nervous about this whole process, at least I know I have somewhere to go to get my questions answered!

    1. OtterB*

      For a government job, I would err in the direction of giving them too much detail. If they ask for your entire work history, give them your entire work history including old part time or summer jobs. This is not what you would put on your resume, but if they have an online or paper application form that asks for it, give it to them.

      1. Atlantis*

        It is indeed an online application, with the ability to attach a resume at the end. They don’t actually use the word “entire” but they do say work history, including periods of unemployment, which I’m taking as entire history. I’m just new enough to this process, and without any relevant job experience, I wasn’t sure which direction to go. Thanks!

  194. OyHiOh*

    Long term fallout from December at my work being stressful and ridiculous hours: I’ve been diagnosed with a with a generally minor medical condition that is often tied to periods of high stress. I’m also rather younger than is typical to develop this condition so getting preventative treatment to avoid a more extensive outbreak in the future is going to involve extra paperwork with my insurance company. I’d been considering quitting next summer during our slow period in July/August. Been setting myself up to go freelance. This diagnosis is my final straw. I can’t justify staying in a demanding job that has literally made me sick, is poorly paid even for non profit, and has no paid support staff (I manage volunteers whose ability to do the variety of jobs they’re recruited for ranges from excellent to non existent).

    I’ve spent the past week making sure that all of the position’s KSA’s are well documented and the paperwork in order. Planning to resign effective immediately after the weekend. My boss will have about five weeks to replace me before work gets busy again which makes their timeline tight but do-able. I feel like I should be concerned about my replacement having enough time to get up to speed but between the muscle spasms and fatigue that are symptoms of what I have, I’ve no energy to direct towards how my boss is going to handle me leaving.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      It sounds very weird to say but — congratulations on making the jump. It must feel like a relief, or if it doesn’t yet, I hope it will soon.

      I’m also sorry about your health condition and your job conditions and hope leaving the second helps the first. I think ‘newly diagnosed health condition’ is one good reason for leaving without a notice period.

  195. DESPERATE & ANXIOUS*

    Got a call from a recruiter this morning for a job I really want. Call them back a few hours later, and they didn’t pick up. I assumed they were at lunch. I tried again an hour later, still didn’t pick up. This time I left a message. Two hours later, they haven’t returned my call. I’ve imagined a scenario where they found a candidate they really liked in those few hours I didn’t call them back and that’s why they’re not calling me back.

    I’m getting anxious because I REALLY want this job. But in the interest of actually having a chance, should I give it one last call today, or just wait until Monday?

      1. DESPERATE & ANXIOUS*

        Okay. But I just want to note I have missed out on 3 possible opportunities for these Fortune 100 companies because each of the recruiters was – through no fault of mine – was disorganized or downright flakey (the first one was sick and we had to keep rescheduling until she just stopped trying; the second one forgot I was living on a different coast and called me earlier than expected – and never called me back after I returned his voicemail; the third one just forgot about our original scheduled phone interview, was for whatever reason not available at the rescheduled time, and ended up ghosting me).

        I am NOT taking my chances if it’s just a matter of being more aggressive with securing in-person interviews through these recruiters.

        1. WellRed*

          Those were not real great opportunities then. If they want you, they will stay in contact. This is no reflection on you. I’d say call again Monday if you need to. then let it drop.

        2. Namey McNameface*

          You’re actually damaging your chances more if you are too aggressive.

          Occasionally I get applicants who call me way too often and that itself is a reason for declining them. You will likely come across as an annoying and pushy person who doesn’t understand professional norms and doesn’t respect other people’s time. As a hiring manager I’m dealing with a lot of applicants at once, in addition to doing other jobs. So I get annoyed with anyone who leaves multiple voicemails and doesn’t accept that I’m not going to get back to them TODAY.

          Regarding your previous experience, I don’t think it was your lack of aggressive calling that got you in the no pile. Recruiters will make sure they contact you if you’re a strong applicant. Or sometimes you are a strong applicant but they’re just crappy and disorganised. They will still be crappy and disorganised even if you call them five times a day.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I had this happen with a temp agency some years ago. They expected you to pick up the phone before it rolled to voicemail and the caller would not leave messages or accept return calls. Just by chance, they called me when I was getting a dental cleaning, or on the part of the subway that didn’t yet have cell reception, and then they stopped contacting me entirely.

      It means they’re a quantity agency- they want whoever answers the phone first- not a quality one.

  196. pugs for all*

    I know I’m way late to this thread but…I work on Fridays and can’t post to AAM at work! I wish there could be an open work thread on the weekend.

    Anyway, if anyone happens to read this – I was one of three finalists for a job I really wanted, but they gave the position to someone else..

    Today my cell phone rings and I dont’ answer it. No message left, but when I google the number, it was from Awesome Job! So…what do I do? I think the answer is nothing…..but WHY DID THEY CALL? In my imagination of course I am thinking that the original candidate didn’t work out and they now want to offer me the position, but…I knid of think they would have left a message if that were the case. Why oh why did they call though???

    1. CatCat*

      I think you can call back. Inquisitive tone: “Hi, my name is ‘pugs for all’ and I missed a call from this number.”

    2. WellRed*

      Send a follow up email to your contact to check in? Also, when job searching, keep in mind you might get calls from unfamiliar numbers…I do think that’s becoming a problem for all of us in this day and age.

      1. pugs for all*

        hmmm….I was just going to let it drop, but maybe a follow up email couldn’t hurt. Could also ask for some interview feedback.

        1. WellRed*

          I don’t think it’ll hurt, they did call you, after all. Just be prepared to drop it after that. But do update us if you get the job!

          1. pugs for all*

            ha, ok, just sent an email to my contact. Why not? and if it ends up in a job, well, you will have to pick me up off the floor.

            It would be especially awesome as my company laid off 3 people (we are about 25 staff) so it’s not the greatest time at my job now….

            1. Pugs for all*

              Ugh, just got an email back saying (paraphrasing here) “no it wasn’t me and I assume you got the rejection letter we sent.”

              Wish I hadn’t reached out. Now I feel like I annoyed him – and rejected all over again. Sigh.

              1. A Reader*

                You didn’t know – please don’t let it get you down. It’s definitely disappointing, but there are other jobs out there. You can do this!

  197. Purrscilla*

    Random question for tech people – does anybody know anything about the “Women in Tech” series of conferences? I got a random message from them the other day saying that they’re doing a conference in my city this year and they’d like to talk to me about what I want from the conference. They are offering 50% off the cost of a pass.

    Things that confuse me about this: “tech” is very broad, and I’m more inclined to attend conferences that are specific to what I do; also I’m not sure how they are picking people to email. They addressed me as “an expert in my field”, however, one of my colleagues told me he was invited to be on a panel at the same conference. (He suggested that maybe I should do the panel instead, given that it’s a WOMEN in tech conference.)

    Anyway, is this a legit conference – useful at all, or is it a waste of time?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      Look at their website, past speakers and sponsors, past agendas. Search social media (I’d say twitter) to see what kind of coverage comes up. You could even reach out to past attendees to ask what they thought. Search google news to see what coverage comes up.

      Also, doing some googling myself, it looks like a lot of the “Women in Tech” conferences have a more specific sub-focus like X school alumni or a type of tech company or a specific demographic. If it’s a really vague conference I would be wary too.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        Sorry, the last paragraph — I may have conflated a larger list of ‘women in tech’ type conferences with the Women in Tech brand. But I guess something to consider is whether there are other more specific conferences for women in your field that you’d rather attend ?

  198. Astrea*

    I attended a “meet the employer” info session with a recruiter from a local university, at the local Workforce center. Along with some helpful guidance on the application process and how to get noticed as an applicant, I got information on a number of other resources for job-seekers there and scheduled a one-on-one meeting with the recruiter to try and assess what kinds of work there might match my skills and qualifications. Those info sessions can be well worth their time.

    Though I’ve gotten different answers from different people at that employer regarding whether an applicant needs to meet *all* requirements in the job description in order to be considered. I err on the side of “yes,” but might thus pass up jobs for which I might have been considered. “No, you only need 60%” seems a weird answer, embassaring to voice when asking about it. Perhaps I’m misremembering and the person said that I only had to be able to do 60% of the tasks, not have 60% of the qualifications. Which sounds even more risky. I’m very afraid to take a job and then discover I’m unable to do some of the work — a likely prospect, as I have multiple disabilities.

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      You don’t need to be 100% qualified to apply. You do need to reasonably believe you can do the job. Depending on the employer and the job they may be flexible about candidate requirements (eg) 2 years experience instead of 5, but they’re not likely to be as flexible about job duties. But it also depends on whether you are literally incapable of doing some of the job duties (likely not a good fit for the position) vs. capable of doing all duties with some accommodations (this could come up in the interview or offer stage) vs. just don’t know how to do some of the duties yet, but could do them with training.

      But don’t self-select out before you even apply! These things can get hashed out in the interview process. What you’re afraid of sounds unlikely — it would be a very poor interviewing process if they hired you only to discover on day one you couldn’t actually do the job, and as long as you hadn’t misrepresented yourself, it would be on the company, not on you.

      1. Astrea*

        Past jobs have drastically worsened my chronic hand pain or leg pain (depending on the job), so much that I might have had to resign from them eventually if they hadn’t been temporary anyway. And there’s a lot that my impaired vision can do and can’t do. I need an employer who’s willing and able to make sufficient accommodations, and their position on the matter is only sometimes evident from the outside. This particular employer is very well spoken-of with regard to accommodations.

  199. I dress like a student*

    Recommendations for smart casual womenswear in the UK?

    My workplace is very much casual, rather than formal wear, but as I get a bit more responsibility I want to dress a bit older! I can do ‘business smart’ and have had previous jobs where I have, but this office is more casual. If I were male I’d be wearing a shirt and jeans or chinos (there are no female managers yet looool). Where can I shop that’s not too expensive?

    1. Bendicks Bittermint*

      I quite like Cos (interesting shapes, good materials) and Arket – I think Arket only has a shop in London but you can buy online. Believe it or not the M&S Autograph range has a few gems. I’ve also seen some nice blouses in the John Lewis own brands – I’m not that keen on Kin, too shapeless for me, but Modern Rarity and the John Lewis & Partners brands have some nice things. French Connection have some good trousers that are a bit smarter than jeans/chinos but still quite casual.

    2. Buu*

      I usually wander around Debenhams since they stock a bunch of brands, I particularly like Nine by Savannah Miller for the odd statement piece then I pop down the road and I buy planer basics from Uniqlo. Uniqlo is always decently priced, Debenhams varies but there’s still stuff left in the sale.

      Asos is often a good bet but you have to hunt through their stuff as they stock a bit of everything.

    3. PX*

      Next has been the best place in terms of slightly more formal work stuff but which can easily be dressed down. Mango too.

  200. sammy_two*

    *rant*
    Are people really so not self-aware that they don’t realize singing, humming badly (very off key btw) or whatever that you can hear from 20+ feet away is distracting and very rude? I’m somewhat new to this office suite, and the person is not in my department, so I don’t want to be ‘that’ person to complain. But seriously?!
    Also, the I QUIT picture totally made my day!

  201. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    Not advice, more a funny story: I’m moving 400 miles to State X for a (hopefully awesome) job. I’m not barred in State X, but because I am barred in State Y, I’m applying to the State X bar as well. Technically I’m being paid through grant money, so my duties are defined by the grant, but the salary scale and benefits are the same as everyone else in the office, i.e. fucking fantastic, especially considering I’m not going into something lucrative like taxes. We’ll say that I’m helping victims of hot coffee spills deal with any tea-related legal issues that might come up as a result, which is really broad and can involve different areas of law depending on the case.

    Yesterday I was trawling my spam folder and it turns out that the day before, I received an email from an organization in State Y, Teapot Law Inc. It’s in an area of State Y that I’m familiar with, and they’re essentially the only game in town for my kind of law in that area of the state. I have applied to Teapot Law multiple times before and have never received a response, not even a rejection – I figured that they wanted someone with more experience than me and stopped applying. But now I get an email from someone there who has noticed my enthusiasm and suggested I apply for a position there: an essentially identical job to the job I have, except the grant funding only runs for a year (the job I have is five years).

    I am moving to State X in three days, and I wouldn’t leave the job even if it was technically possible to do so (it’s a bird in hand, the benefits are fantastic, everyone there is very nice and the job runs for five years rather than one). I wrote an email back to the guy thanking him for thinking of me and asking him to keep me in mind for future positions, since I may indeed move back to State Y in the future. I’m a little annoyed that, now that I’ve locked into a position and made preparations to relocate for it, this came out of blue. But I’m happy with the position I have, and I’m glad that someone over at Teapot Law noticed me and will recognize me if/when I apply there in future.

    1. silverpie*

      “Barred” makes it sound like you’re prohibited from there, but you seem to mean the opposite. Guessing it’s a technical term that lawyers would know, but “admitted (to the bar)” might be clearer to us laymen.

      1. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

        Oh, yes, sorry. “Barred” means “admitted to the bar,” it’s just a shorthand form.

  202. JNM*

    Is it a red flag if a company doesn’t post its organizational structure (not even a list of staff names/positions) on the website? What about not mentioning any benefits in the job posting or career page? (it’s a non-profit in DC if it makes a difference)

    1. worker ant*

      I wouldn’t consider those red flags and I’ve worked at various nonprofits for about the last 10 years (including some in DC). I’ve seen some orgs only choose to list executive team staff on website and some are just so behind in having updated websites. When I started at my current job the website had a staff list, but it was almost completely out of date and the website itself was a mess. It’s since been redone, but at the time it just wasn’t a priority and it was actually part of why I was hired to fix it.

      Similarly I think mentioning benefits could be an oversight. Certainly something to ask about in an interview and to check out in Glassdoor reviews, but I don’t think it should totally steer you away from the org.

    2. Approval is optional*

      I wouldn’t see the lack of org chart/staff list as a red flag. There are a number of possible not ‘red’ reasons for this I’d say: for example they might not be incredibly tech savvy and might not want to spend funds that could be spent on their mission on outside website work.
      The benefits I can’t really help with – I live in a country where the benefits for most positions below executive are determined by union agreements (and there is universal health care), so they’re rarely mentioned in ads etc.

    3. Friday afternoon fever*

      1- no. But you can look at their overall web presence to inform how polished/well-functioning they might be.
      2- no. It is a sign you need to ask upfront.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t think it’s a red flag to nit have that stuff posted publicly on a website. But they should be able to provide something like that if you get an interview or ask about it. I’d think HR could provide this info, and if they can’t or won’t then it could be a red flag.

      1. Who asked you?*

        And? So? Who cares?

        Why would anyone feel the need to declare this? How petty and pathetic can you possibly be?

        My nails, my rules. Don’t like? I do not give the tiniest sh*t!

  204. BookPony*

    I’ve been applying for other jobs since my raise/promotion was taking forever to go through. Still have a few interviews and was offered a better paying job, but I didn’t feel like I’d be a good fit so I turned it down.

    Plus going on interviews has made me realize how lovely my job is. I don’t get paid enough, but boss finally got back with me (I did check in with them, so thanks to those that gave advice about poking my boss about my raise!) and said my raise got approved…but the promotion did not. Apparently I haven’t been there long enough to get one, according to the super high people. It’s a new thing, apparently. But I’m not all that discouraged since I’ll be within range of being allowed to get a promotion.

    As to another update: if y’all remember that coworker that kept staring at me as he went by my office, yup, he’s at it again. I think I’m just going to wave energetically at him each time he does it until he stops. Or just go back to staring at him when I see him in the hallways lol.

    So, no questions for once (unless I think of some later), just updates. :D

    1. BookPony*

      Annnnd now I remember my question!

      Asked a coworker to be a reference in case I get to that stage in a job (we’ll call them Mira). Mira said yes, and then asked the second in command on my team (we’ll use Davey) if they’d do it instead. Davey said yes, so Mira told me that they switched over from themselves to Davey. I said it was fine in the moment, but I’m miffed that they asked that person, as I’m not trying to advertise that I’m looking for a new job.

      Anyone have any scripts to say to Mira to let them know, “hey, appreciate you agreeing to help, but please don’t talk to Davey about this kinda stuff?”

  206. The Curator*

    Late to the party but really really really wanted to share good news. The big project phase one is complete. Whew. Big project phase to hitting roadblocks, sink holes and sand traps but I know things will work out in the end. I know this because I read the AAM updates. I know this because I have had modeled for me professional behavior and my experience tells me that if I just stay in the moment, do the next right thing, it all works out in the end. The Good News is in my name.

    1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      That’s absolutely fantastic! I’m getting that book. I wish that I could have visited that exhibit!
      Yay you!

  207. BRR*

    I’m completely at BEC crackers with my job. Promotions were announced and I wasnt included despite being told two years ago I would be receiving one. One colleague has been promoted twice in that time. I was told titles would be decided end of February so I’m going to ask Monday why I wasn’t included. My manager doesn’t understand what I do so it’s been a challenge to make the case that my title doesn’t reflect my responsibilities.

    Thankfully I got a phone interview Monday. I’m now overly invested in this interview and breaking all of the AAM job hunting thinking.

    1. Rosie The Rager*

      BRR, my sympathies for your frustration and feelings of being passed over.

      Your boss’ lack of understanding about your role and responsibilities may be holding you back. Is there any way that you could address making clear all you contribute to the team and the company as a whole? Perhaps this could lead to a change in your title to make it more accurate.

      In the meantime, I’m sending good vibes your way for Monday’s phone interview.

    2. 653-CXK*

      Wow. We never got direct promotions at ExJob – we always had to fill out job applications and interview – but if your company is passing you over for promotions, and your manager doesn’t know diddly-squat about what you do, yeah, moving on would be your only other option.

    3. Argh!*

      Good luck with the meeting! A tip: make an outline and leave space to write down your answers, then send a follow up email with your notes — just to verify you got it right ;-)

  208. Paloma Joss*

    I just found what sounds like my dream job. However, they don’t want the typical application. They want a one-sentence explanation about why you’d be the “perfect fit.” Does anyone have experience answering these types of questions? Here’s the job description:

    Client Care: The Assistant Account Executive (AAE) is the main point of contact for each client. They protect the time and schedules of the operations team and guide clients through our process. They are the “advocates for the client and ambassadors of the agency.” Coffees, lunches, dinners, and events are a normal part of the gig as the AAE is expected to build and maintain great relationships with our clients. AAEs report directly to the Director of Business Development & Accounts.

    1. WellRed*

      Run! If they are that bad at hiring, they probably make you front $$ for all those dinners and coffees.

    3. Sam Foster*

      My thought is that if the entry point is not familiar to you then the rest of the way they operate will probably not be either so I’d run if I were you. Good luck!

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Unless you are charged solely with the responsibility of running there twitter account (and the attached character limit) there is absolutely no good reason for a company to only want a single sentence application from you. It tells them nothing about your fit for the role, and only about how good you are at stringing a single marginally compelling sentence together. And with that limited amount of real estate, how compelling can you even be?

      This sentence request tells you WAY more about them, then it could ever tell them about you, and unfortunately, nothing it’s saying is good.

  211. Audra*

    My office is having a baby shower lunch for one of our employees next week and the invite requests to bring a book for the new baby. I’m the only remote worker in the office, and by remote, I mean several state away. Obviously, I can’t make the shower. I am relatively close with this coworker, as she’s someone I report to daily, we’ve gone on business trips together, and overall a mentor to me. Is it weird if I don’t send something? Is it weird if I DO send something?

    2. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think it’s weird either way. You can’t attend, so you can’t bring anything. If you want to send something then I think that’s fine, but not obligatory.
      Maybe send a card or note?

    3. Triplestep*

      Is there a reason you don’t want to send a book? It’s pretty easy to order one online and have it sent there. If you don’t like using Amazon, there are independent book sellers that would LOVE your business and probably take your credit card over the phone and have the book sent to the baby shower organizer (either wrapped or unwrapped.) Some children’s/baby’s books are quite inexpensive. I like to give the bathtub books – they are plastic/waterproof and do not cost a lot.

  212. indescribablecircle*

    A pay rise / what to do next question.

    I requested a pay review as my position is being treated differently to all other roles – there’s an established remuneration policy that specifies where roles are positioned in terms of salaries but my predecessor campaigned hard (and won) for the new person filling her position to be paid less than the pay policy. Maybe it was an ego thing (“a new person isn’t worth as much as me!”), maybe not, I don’t know. Anyway my request went up the chain through boss and grandboss with input from HR and after a lot of waiting it was denied – no real reason why – just a no. In legal terms they’re within their rights to do that, my request was more of an ethical/principle one as the money isn’t really the issue for me right now. I don’t like the tone the issue has set if you know what I mean?

    Anyway, the options I can think of is that I either appeal (which I feel wouldn’t go down well) or quietly seethe about it in the corner or leave. Would pushing back and asking them to reconsider make me look bad? I’m not really in the mood to job-hunt right now but I know the principle of it will drive me mad in the end!

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t have advice, really, but agree it was an ego thing on the part of your predecessor. I do think you need to bring this up again if there’s an actual salary policy they are not following. It’s also not unreasonable to expect an explanation , even if it’s stupid, as to why they turned down the raise. Either you don’t deserve it because of reasons and here’s what you need to do to improve or it’s totally ridiculous which will give you needed info to take the next step, whatever that is.

  214. Desdemona*

    What can I do if I’ve struck out as a software developer? I graduated four years ago with a degree is computer science, and started a job, and am pretty much just ignored by our team leads. My pull requests get approved with minor changes, and then a while later, a lead refactors them. I don’t feel that I’ve really learned how to do better; other people on my team collaborate with each other on design decisions, but that hasn’t happened for me. My performance reviews have focused mostly on how meek I am, with middle of the road technical ratings, but no suggestions for how I could have done better. Lately, recruiters have been contacting me for interviews, but the fact is, I’m sure my skills aren’t what they should be after working this long. It’s my own fault I’ve abandoned my side projects, but I just don’t have passion for this kind of work anymore. I’m not terrible, but I’m not great, and more and more of my energy at work goes toward just showing up and looking pleasant. Anyone have any ideas what kinds of things a failed coder can do? I can’t afford to take too much of a pay hit.

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’m not a coder, but I’ve been in demoralizing jobs. Are you sure you don’t have a passion or energy for coding, or is your workplace just so draining you’ve assumed you are not good at coding? Your performance reviews focusing on how “meek” you are but have no actionable feedback strikes me as a red flag to some of the abusive workplaces I’ve worked in, where every tiny mistake turns into a character attack, and then you end up spending so much time working on your personality and being who they want you to be that it destroys your self-confidence because you’re constantly second-guessing yourself: you saying “my energy goes towards showing up and looking pleasant,” “skills aren’t what they should be,” “failed coder,” makes me think this is happening to you.

      This happens a *lot* to women, in particular, because women are always expected to change to be pleasing to those around them. I’ve been there. It’s rough.

      If this sounds familiar, I’d say you should take some coding interviews and see if you can find a company that’s a better fit for you as a person before you make a bigger decision about your career.

      Good luck!

    2. WellRed*

      Not a coder either. Why did you pursue that education and job? There must be something that drew you to it? Agree with Desdemona about maybe it’s the company that’s the problem, but again, what drew you to this path in the first place?

  215. DarlaMushrooms*

    It might be too late for me to ask this! I got a short term job working for a place that I’ve previously for a couple of years ago. The job duties and title are the same, except I’m working remotely and part time now. Do I need two different entries for this company on my resume or do I add a notation to its existing entry on my resume (see below)?

    Acme Studios
    Jan 2019 – current (remote, part-time)
    Jan 2012 – Dec 2015 (full time, on site)
    Roadrunner Wrangler
    – list of duties

    1. DarlaMushrooms*

      I forgot to mention that I had a full time job in between these two stints at Acme Studios

      1. BRR*

        I’d separate them out then. I see what you’re going for but I’d personally rather read a resume in chronological order.

    2. WellRed*

      Since it’s basically the same job, I think the way you have it here is fine. Orherwise, it will feel redundant/take up valuable resume space.

  216. Lonnie*

    I started a new job about five weeks ago and am learning the ropes. I work directly under the head of the company in an office of under 10 people. I like my boss, and want to do the very best job I can. However, I’m experiencing some challenges with his expectations.

    For example, if I’m working on a project and have a few files saved on my desktop, he’ll ask me to remove them because it looks messy to him. I always clean up my workstation at the end of the day or when I complete a project, whether comes first, but sometimes it just makes sense to have few files saved in an easily accessible location. He doesn’t like this and says that he expects me to keep my desktop empty.

    Another example is at the end of a meeting, I will quickly recap what my next steps are. For example, “Alright, this week I’ll contact our teapot vender, then I’ll finish organizing the tea collection, and then move on to designing our new tea cosy.” I do this to make sure I understand everything and we’re on the same page. He tells me this is a sign that I wasn’t listening the first time and I need to pay attention better.

    So, I get that this is his style, and I’m doing my best to accommodate it and work with him the way he wants things done. But my question is more focused on how do I manage my reactions. I find myself getting so upset when he’s not pleased with me, to the point where I’ll end up crying in the bathroom. This is a problem! I’m trying to remember that I can’t really predict his preferences and I’m learning, but it really seems to upset me, which he then picks up on because of my body language, and that makes me feel even more upset at myself.

    Has anyone been in a similar position and been able to work through this? I am seeing a therapist for post traumatic stress disorder, but I’m so worried about losing my job if I can’t accommodate his needs fast enough. I’m really trying to modulate my manner of speaking and responding, but it’s not something that I have been able to change overnight.

    1. valentine*

      He’s weirdly and gaslightingly fixated on you: body language, claiming proof you got it the first time is proof you weren’t paying attention. The desktop thing is wildly micromanaging. Wow. Can you pin the files to the taskbar?

      You may be enmeshed or conflating him with a caregiver who taught you their disapproval is catastrophic. Does this happen with other people? Do you really want this job? If you’re isolated with him, then no. Run. There is only hope if others can see you as you are, without this weirdo framing you (in more ways than one) and sullying your reputation.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. This dude is a micromanager. And he is an ass. He is not interested in your success here at all.

        I have no advice because he has it set up so that you will always be wrong no matter what you do. There’s no fix.

        You sound like a fine person and conscientious employee. Some boss out there will be thankful to find you. However, it won’t be this one.

    2. DarlaMushrooms*

      This is bad.

      You can’t fix your boss. IT’S A TRAP. It’s a hamster wheel of misery. Get off ASAP.

      I’ve only been in two work situations I’d classify as toxic, and both of them started out with my boss micromanaging me, criticizing me needlessly, and “correcting” tiny things I did that they didn’t like. If I were you I’d start looking for a new job immediately, because it’s only going to get worse. I am still recovering from the damage my former bosses did. Don’t be me.

      Are your parents controlling and critical? Because a healthy reaction here would be for you to wonder WTF is wrong with your boss, not WTF is wrong with you. Your boss is unreasonable and a bully. If you can afford and access therapy, please consider it. It is enormously helpful to have someone in your corner who can reaffirm that your boss is behaving ridiculously. Plus, they can help you develop some psychological tools to help you get through your current situation while you look for new work.

      Alison has some good advice for managing emotions at work:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/09/im-bad-at-taking-feedback.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/do-you-have-to-control-your-emotions-to-be-professional.html

      Captain Awkward has recommended the book Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists: Coping with the one way Relationship in Work, Love and Family. It’s very good. My library has it, yours may as well.

      Remember that you can’t fix your boss. You will NEVER be good enough for him. Do not fall into his trap.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, this is bad and is likely to get worse.
      A good boss will not care about “how” you organize youself to get work done. Now, if there IS a valid reason for not keeping files on the desktop (because of backups or sharing) that’s one thing, but not because it’s “messy.”
      And it is perfectly normal to recap tasks and instructions at the end of a meeting, ESPECIALLY if you’re new. No way you should be berated for that.
      Your boss is crackers, not you. Having been there myself once, I’m sorry to tell you it will progress to more gaslighting. A very experienced and confident person who’s spent years in the working would *might* be able to make it work by setting boundaries, but you’re already letting it get to you. I would begin looking.

    4. animaniactoo*

      It’s your workstation. As long as he doesn’t need some sort of regular access to work on your computer, how you use it (in a completely reasonable manner btw) is no business of his.

      The fact that he’s making it his business – when it does not actually do DIDDLY SQUAT to affect his workflow – and improves yours – is key number one that he is unreasonable.

      That he thinks doublechecking to make sure you’re in the same place about what work is to be done by you is proof that you’re not listening (rather than that you are and are utilizing a method to prevent other human error) is key number two that he’s unreasonable.

      His expectations of how a human being should work are completely unreasonable and are going to inevitably lead to errors – that he will blame on you for not being perfect rather than having been able to use backup security checks.

      RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN. There is no saving this situation. I tell you this as somebody who is really familiar with these kinds of dynamics and boundary drawing. Even if you manage to convince him that it’s fine to keep files on your desktop temporarily, or just stand up for yourself and say “This is how I work, it’s not going to change” and get him to accept that – there will be the next thing and the next thing and the one after that.

      Get out as fast as you can. If you need the job for the paycheck, discuss survival techniques with your therapist, and ramp up your self-care.

  217. ..Kat..*

    In addition, it is an infection risk. You don’t want your nurse or other health care provider to have chipped polish. It makes it easier to take an infection from one patient to another.

  218. Who asked you?*

    Declaring random things like this online behind the veil of anonymity is gross, ignorant and rude. People who do so SUCK.

    Yuck!

  219. Ike*

    Coming in late with a question about recruiters. Is it rude to ask someone who cold calls you at work to not call you again?

    I had a guy do this on Friday, so I sent him a note back saying that I don’t work with recruiters who cold call since it can tip my current job off to know that I am looking. Not that I am looking, but I assume that a recruiter who cold calls or takes “I’m not looking/I’m not interested in that job or company” as an invitation for debate won’t consider my best interests.

  220. JNM*

    Another late question… I followed up on an interview I had before Christmas to ask for an update on the hiring timeline, since they answered vaguely in the interview and some time had passed after the holidays. I didn’t hear back, not even “We’re still deciding.” So I assumed they went with another candidate and were waiting for a definite yes, before giving me a definite no. Now some of my references are telling me they’ve been contacted but the org itself hasn’t contacted me with an offer yet, maybe they are still contacting other references. Is this a sign of disorganization and not being professional if the org didn’t keep me in the loop about things or reply to my email?

    1. Ike*

      These things always move slowly in late December/early January, even if everyone involved is in and hasn’t taken any holidays. I don’t understand why, but that’s the case. I would send off an email to the HR contact or hiring manager asking them if they have any news, and leave it there. Unless you have or are expecting a written offer soon, because then they’ll usually get back to you quicker.

      Personal anecdotes: one time this happened, it took the company six weeks to get back to me with an offer. Another time I got a form email for the rejection … nine months later. It can be anything, so try not to worry about it.

    2. WellRed*

      This was the first week back for a lot of people and they are probably catching up. Remember, hiring time is much more urgent for the applicant.

    3. A Reader*

      The week of Jan. 14 will only be the second full work week of the new year, and it’s likely many people were on vacation up until last week. It’s nerve-wracking – believe me, I understand! – but I would actually wait another week or so before reaching out to the company again. While it would be awesome if they could say “We’ll make a decision on DATE,” there are many reasons why they can’t. I don’t think it’s so much disorganization as it is that a lot of things need to line up before making someone an offer.

    4. Namey McNameface*

      Employers typically don’t give you updates each time your application progresses, other than to arrange interviews with you or follow up to ask for additional information they might require (e.g., requests for certificates, reference contact details). I’ve never heard of anyone contacting an applicant just to let them know they’re calling references. I wouldn’t expect to be kept in the loop at all.

  221. A Reader*

    I realize I am late to the open thread, so my apologies!

    Here’s the scoop: I was unemployed earlier this year, then scored a contract position. The job is a perfect match for my skills, I like my coworkers, the company is fantastic, etc. It’s been a dream! I have a few months left in my contract, so my question is this: How often can I put the bug in my managers’ ears that I really, really want to stay? While I don’t want to be obnoxious and remind them monthly that I want to stay, I also don’t want them to think I’m no longer interested. Any advice you can share would be great!

Comments are closed.