open thread – January 25-26, 2019

by Alison Green on January 25, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

You may also like:
{ 1,617 comments }

{ 1,617 comments… read them below }

  1. Amy*

    For people who’ve gotten what they thought was a ‘dream job’ only to be disappointed: how long did it take for that to become apparent? Was it because the job changed over time or were you misled from the start?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      When I had a dream job, it didn’t disappoint at all.

      When I had a “dream job,” I was misled from the start. It went bad really quickly.

      1. BeanCat*

        This.

        I had a work at home position that required occasional site visits that sounded wonderful and let me use two of my very unique skillsets that don’t really overlap. It was a lot of dysfunction and lack of clarity about what my role actually did. I was let go right after the busiest season, despite doing very well, because I expressed concerns about volume for the next busy season.

      2. BRR*

        All of this. I misled myself about the “dram job.” I work in nonprofits and had a high affinity for the organization/cause. Working there was like being a kid and seeing the Disney employee take the Mickey head off the costume.

      3. Doug Judy*

        Not me but a friend of mine had their dream job. The job was still great but the boss was a straight up nightmare and made things so miserable that it didn’t matter that the job itself was everything they wanted. For them it wasn’t apparent immediately but as time went on it got worse and it became unbearable. The boss wasn’t going anywhere, it was a branch of the city government and the boss was good friends with the mayor.

          1. Doug Judy*

            Yes, he eventually took something that wasn’t even close to his old job. He was only there for a few months and then he got a highly sought after position in his field. He now has his dream job without the nightmare boss.

            His old boss and his buddy the mayor are still in their positions, however the mayor is not seeking re-election and is retiring soon. And by retiring I feel some bad stuff would have come out about him had he decided to run.

        2. CRM*

          This sounds EXACTLY like my “dream job” situation! It really was the perfect position, I’d probably still be there if it wasn’t for my boss. He was an absolute nightmare, and because he operated under very little oversight he was allowed to get away with a lot. Nobody cared about how he acted or treated his employees as long as he was producing results. I truly loved that job, but he ruined it for me.

          I’m currently doing a job that I’m far less passionate about, but overall I’m much happier. It’s difficult to understate the importance of having a good manager, and a good office environment in general.

          1. Triplestep*

            Substitute “she” for “he” and I could have written this. It wasn’t my “dream job” but one I was really excited for when I started. Nightmare boss left unchecked, never coached about how to be a good manager, fitting in to all the bad culture stuff, etc. My morale, engagement, confidence and interest in my work plummeted.

            Next week I am starting a job that most people would find dry and boring on paper compared to the one I have now, but I am looking forward to having less stress, and no commute (work from home.) I anticipate I will be much happier, and honestly – at 55 years old – I am not trying to climb the ladder anymore. If they change my responsibilities to knock them down a notch, I don’t even care. Just pay me my rate and don’t make me come into an office and I’ll be happy.

          2. Wintermute*

            people don’t quit jobs, by and large, people quit bosses.

            There are some minor exceptions but for the most part you go into a crappy job knowing it’s a crappy job and adjusting your expectations accordingly. It’s the manager that’s the unknown “X quantity” that makes or breaks it.

          3. Cedrus Libani*

            Yep. I’ve had the “dream job”, but the boss was a nightmare. I was miserable. It wasn’t remotely worth it. I’ve also just been there for the paycheck, but the boss was sane, competent, and had the word “thanks” in her vocabulary. That was so very much better. I’ve had both together, and that’s better still. But given a choice, I’d take dream boss over dream job every single time.

        3. a good mouse*

          When I was first job searching, my mom told me it’s better to have a great boss and a job that’s not quite a perfect fit, than to have your “dream job” and a terrible boss. I followed that advice and took a role I was a little unsure about, and that was my favorite role/boss I’ve ever had. When my boss retired and I got a new micromanaging nightmare boss, I appreciated what I’d had even more.

          1. PurpleMonster*

            A rare occasion where parental job advice is bang on!

            My first job I didn’t like that much and we had a nice but not-great boss. When he left he was replaced by an awesome one, but it was too late for me and I’d already checked out. I sometimes wonder how different things would have been if I’d had Awesome Boss from the start.

      4. Artemesia*

        I once escaped a dream job because I just had this weird spidey sense and decided not to use my one ‘uproot the family and my husband’s career card’ on it. I was recommended by an important person in the field, it would have involved a high level project right off the bat, it was right in my lane in terms of interest and competence and it should have done a lot of good in the world. A friend of mine took the job after I turned it down — he discovered that the head of the organization had his hand in the till and there was a major top leadership meltdown, those running it had stiffed a bunch of community leaders who had been promised jobs to quit their jobs and work in the project, all the local agencies critical to its success were thoroughly alienated. Everything on the giant room size pert chart of processes and milestones was simply a lie. It was a clusterfudge of almost complete disaster. I would have uprooted my family and moved them to a new city in order to probably end up with a nervous breakdown. My friend was in the process of a divorce, so taking that year was not happy but at least he was able to keep his down, undo a little of the damage and then look aggressively for a job and move on when he got one.

        It did teach me that ‘dream jobs’ have to be proven in practice not on paper or in interviews.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It did teach me that ‘dream jobs’ have to be proven in practice not on paper or in interviews.

          I really like this. I have to remember this now that I’m technically in a field that uses my writing skills for 90% of the job, which, to me, would have been my dream job when I graduated with what then seemed like a useless journalism degree 10 years ago. Getting to do what you love for your career isn’t just about the skills you get to use, but also the environment you wind up in, the people you end up working with, the benefits you receive, and so many other factors that are too long to list. You can’t really suss this kind of thing out by just reading the job description or even just interviewing. It’s only something observable over time.

      6. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I took a promise for the future that the current job would *become* my dream job. Never do this unless the promise comes from the very top of the food chain.
        I was hired by the VP of Marketing at a startup to be marketing assistant/office manager for a few months before they’d hire a full-time office manager. I was fired by the Founder/President because a few months later what they really needed was a receptionist. I found it strangely reassuring that the VP who hired me left the company the same week.

    2. Rick*

      When I was offered a “dream job,” which contributed a social good, was a big pay raise, and a much better work life balance, I walked in on the first day and no one knew why I was there. Turned out to be an administrative nightmare and I walked out without notice within six months.

    3. Celaena Sardothien*

      It was neither for me. Mine was more of a familial issue than a work issue.

      I knew what my “dream job” was for a long time, and it took me a while to realize it was actually my mom’s dream job. She never got it, so she pushed me and pushed me in the direction of this career, insisting that it was “my dream.” It wasn’t until after I got the job that I realized it wasn’t my dream at all.

      Oh well. Good news it I do know what my actual dream job is now, and I’m taking small steps to transition.

      1. Mrs_helm*

        That’s actually a great point. The things that other people tell you should be your dream, might not be! The things that society says are signs of success (location, salary, perks, status) might not be what makes YOU happy in a job. it’s important to know yourself.

    4. Not All*

      I was misled from the start. It took a few months for me to figure it out though because the first few months in this field are so much orientation that you can’t really be positive what the situation is going to be for at least 3-6 months.

      1. Artemesia*

        It is very hard not to be misled when they try to mislead you although the internet helps today. After my near miss avoiding the ‘dream job from hell’ I did take one of the few other jobs in my field and they totally misled me and the organization tanked within 3 years and I and about half of the staff were all cut when the organization merged with another. We were in ‘duplicate departments’ and were cut by department to avoid law suits. Not that fun and I did ask the right questions but they straight out lied and it was before the internet and easily available information to check on them. (and one of those ‘it has been here for 200 years, how could it possibly go wrong now?)

    5. AnonyMouse*

      For me it was a combo of not being realistic with what I really needed out of my work environment, being a little mislead from the beginning, and my job changing abruptly about 6 months in.
      1) In terms of my own needs, I wasn’t realistic with myself about how important my geographic proximity to my family was. I currently live/work 1.5 hours away. I’m back with them about 2 weekends per month, and the driving back and forth plus lack of social support in my immediate area during the week has become very draining.
      2) I was a bit mislead about the culture of my current environment. Everyone in the interview acted like it was such a good place. They also misrepresented why the director was leaving. Turns out it’s actually a toxic, dysfunctional mess and that’s why everyone is slowly jumping ship (our staff is almost fully turned over at this point).
      3) With everything listed above taken into consideration, a big part of why I felt comfortable staying was the position I had. It was relatively unique and not something I’d find everywhere. Six months in we had a “restructure,” and my job was the only one that changed 100%. Now I can literally do what I’m doing here anywhere. That was kind of the final straw for me to start looking. I’ve been looking for a year and am hopeful I’ll find something better soon!

    6. Adam V*

      Mine was a “dream job” at the start – cool coworkers, casual environment, fun and fast-paced work. Within about 6 months, though, new management came in, the “casual environment” was largely eliminated and the fun coworkers started to drift away. I was gone within two years.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It took me about a month to realize that it was worse than, “Oh, I must have misunderstood this when they explained it.” I think it was when I went up to headquarters, everyone was miserable, and several people told me some really batcrap crazy stuff about the place and its leadership.

    8. Anonandonandonandon*

      I’m in this situation now. I’ve only started to see it after 5 months. I was hired for one thing and my role completely changed after that. It’s very disappointing. I took a pay cut in hopes I would gain more project management skills and about 3 months into it, my role changed to more of a data entry role. I don’t do well with Data Entry, it’s repetitive which is the opposite of what I wanted.

    9. Overeducated*

      I was not misled. I was moving from the world of small nonprofits and shoestring projects to a large organization and did not understand that my role was not going to be Doing All the Things, it was going to be trying to sit in the middle of a web pulling strings to make others more successful at Doing All the Things. I also had nooo idea how slow bureaucracy is. It was a hard adjustment and I’m not sure I was great at it, but it really helped me learn to think about systems and scale in a new way.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I had a job I really liked–not necessarily a dream job. It wasn’t perfect, but it was a massive step up from my previous jobs. It changed abruptly three years in. Completely out of my control, in a way that was not sustainable for me.

      I think the whole dream job thing is bogus. Even a job you love doing that gives you everything you could ever want has crap stuff with it. If the good outweighs the bad, then I feel like I’m ahead. Just like with a relationship, when the bad starts to outweigh the good, that’s when it’s time to go.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I totally get this. My new dream job is to stay home and they send me checks. Since I know that never happens, I am never disappointed.

    11. CastIrony*

      This is my story:
      Imagine my joy when I first got my one and only full-time job as a cook’s assistant, everything was going well. I had about 4-5 co-workers that made completing tasks easier. Around a month later, while having diarrhea from eating food my boss/owner had put his fingers that he’d licked the day before, (mild, but enough that I was going to the bathroom often), I asked to call someone to cover for me, only to find out that not only did I have to stay, but that I was the only help in the food department left!

      After that, the sh*t gradually hit the fan as he became critical of me every day, taking things away from me while I tried to fix my mistakes. About a month after that, I snapped and found my way out and walked from my job after I cubed a tomato wedge he was using, and he took a new tomato from my hand while I was trying to make another one.

      TL, DR ( Too Long, Didn’t Read): Things changed for the worst really fast as I found out all of my co-workers had either been fired or moved on, making me the only person left.

      1. Quake Johnson*

        Wait what? Did you never interact with any coworkers while on the job? How was it you didn’t know or weren’t told they all quit/were fired?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think everyone left for the day? Kitchens can be chaotic so maybe that is why OP did not know?

          I worked in one kitchen were you could spend a half hour looking for someone, there were so many places they could be. And because of the dysfunction (bad supervisor) people went to the boss instead of the supervisor. The boss would try to deal with problems and did not always have time to explain that people had left.

        2. CastIrony*

          I did interact with the co-workers (two were on my shift), but one left because they got promoted in their other job before this. The other person had been fired because they promised to cover for two hours the day before I asked to call them to cover me because my boss had a dentist appointment, but never showed.

          Sure, I knew about the first person, but I found out about the second person when I asked if I could call them so they could cover me because I didn’t want to infect other workers! What a time to find out that I was the only kitchen help he had for my shift!

    12. RJ the Newbie*

      I found my dream job that offered me a promotion, management status, a bump in salary with a global company after months of interviewing. After a month, I realized how much they had understated the antiquated financial systems they had in place and understated the corporate labyrinth they’d created which allowed for the continuation of a vicious cycle of bad project accounting and budgeting. I left after six months

    13. Fortitude Jones*

      About a year. The manager turned out to be….off. I ended up taking a promotion into a new division five months later. I’m currently in a dream job for my skills, but I’m looking to get out of this as well soon due to boredom more than anything. I’ve been here a little over a year, and we don’t have nearly the amount of work they told me we would have when I interviewed for this position. I need to be busy.

    14. Competent Commenter*

      Within six months, for sure. That’s how long it took to realize the scope of the job and just how ridiculously inadequate the available resources were, and to start learning that people in other units with the same job title and same scope had teams of 4-5 while I worked solo.

      1. bitters*

        Am I in your old job? That is literally what I am enduring right now!
        In a dream job at a dream company, but my department does not prioritize my vertical , my resources are limited (especially compared with the same positions in another vertical, I have a client that is notoriously difficult to work with and multiple people refuse to work with them and my Account Manager, my manager seems to prioritize the development of my AM at the expense of my growth and what are clearly my responsibilities, and I am the 4th person in my role in the past 4 years. Not to mention my position is the one that people blame when everything goes wrong?

        I’m told other departments at the company are better. I hope so.

    15. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’ve never had a dream job, but after some false starts, I make a point to carefully vet the job in the interview.

      “OK, I am certified to train alpacas. You mentioned llamas and I want to make it clear that I can handle llamas but I will need to go get my llama training certification as I am currently certified to train alpacas. Is that OK?”

      “One thing that’s important to me are compliance with animal care safety regulations. If the llama barn was found to be structurally unsound, I would expect to evacuate the llamas as dictated by the Humane Society Llama Barn guidelines. Is management able to support that?”

      “Hm. Looking at your llama barn, I see that there’s some safety equipment missing. There’s no llama First Aid equipment in case a llama cuts their hoof, and I’m not seeing a Llama 911 plan for summoning the veterinarian in an emergency. When I arrive, I’ll be able to buy the First Aid kit and implement a Llama 911 protocol correct?”

      Three weeks later: Hey we volunteered you to run a Llama Care training class tomorrow! Also, the llama barn is falling down but we can’t put the llamas outside because we rented the llama field to the polo ponies this week so you’ll just have to deal. And this expense report- why are we spending $500 on a Llama First Aid kit? And why are you bothering the desk staff with a Llama 911 plan, they’re trying to work. Stop bothering them.

      Okay then.

      1. CastIrony*

        That sounds horrifying! I, too, learned that I need to work in a place that values safety and follows safety regulations!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        An organization I volunteer for would hire you in a heartbeat. You’re just what the doctor ordered. Someone who can prioritize and keep us in compliance. I especially like the part where you feel free to say what is wrong. So many people struggle with that.

    16. Tysons in NE*

      My dream job had it’s ups and downs. Very little with my actual job content but rather poor upper level management. For example when we had to move offices, it took them about five months to get dependable internet, I would say working phones except the phone system was never quite right. Security was an issue with our office (not so much the office building), we had no control over when the doors were locked and unlocked. Yup that’s right if no one was in the office and for some reason the door was opened it would stay that way until 5pm.
      For me personally at one point they (meaning the German management) decided that my position would go part time, but never told me when and what they meant by part time. This is the US and at my previous place if you worked 30 hours or more you could get health benefits. After 9 months and new local upper management my position stayed full time.
      A part of me was very relieved when I was laid off after two years at that place.

    17. Alli525*

      My first “dream job” was really, really great until I was assigned to a new high-profile hire, who quickly decided he hated me and decided he would try to get me fired. I outlasted him but the experience jaded me and I quickly realized that the industry itself was too toxic for me to stay.

      My next “dream job” really was wonderful – ups and downs, but still – until we got new management who were absolute nightmares and ruined the company culture.

      Basically: The Powers That Be really needed to be better at hiring high-level people.

    18. Existentialista*

      My first career was in academia. From the time I was a Sophomore in college, every aspect of my life was devoted to getting a position as a tenured professor. Ten years later, I finished my PhD and got a job overseas at a big university – my dream realized!
      I stayed there almost four years, and it took a few years of counselling, a bout of Prozac, a three-month career development seminar, several lunches with a mentor, and finally, the catalyst of my partner moving to a new city, for me to finally realize that although I loved being a student, I didn’t love the academic life as a career. Even then, I didn’t resign but just took a leave of absence, and it took almost two years to fully resign.
      A compounding factor was that in academia there’s a narrative, first, that we’re so lucky to be doing what we love, while everyone else toils as a wage slave, and second, that we’re not fit to do anything else in the “Real World” and so have no options.
      Fortunately, I found a career where there is constant change and innovation, so I learn new things all the time. I’ve had corporate jobs now for more than 25 years. From time to time people ask me about the transition, and ask if I’d like to go back, but I can truly say that I have no regrets, and find my life today much more dreamy in every way.

      2. Three Flowers*

        And also what your PhD is in? (Humanities PhD candidate with reservations about academia here…)

    19. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I was misled from the start. It was my very first job. I was hired to be the secretary of the owner of a travel agency that specialized in arranging conventions in Europe for countries in the USA. This was in 1973, so I guess that a lot of American companies had conventions in Europe back then. I was told that I would be going to Europe on occasion to provide secretarial help to the companies. That meant that while my days would be filled, my evenings would be free! In Europe! The owner said that I was so smart, he would train me to be a travel agent. “I can always get another secretary,” he said.

      But I wasn’t smart enough to realize that he had lied to me. He told me that my hours would be from 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM, Monday through Friday. However, on my first day, I was told that my hours would be from 9:00 AM until midnight Monday through Friday, plus 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM on Saturday, plus Sunday mornings if necessary, because there was so much work to do. And I was told that I wouldn’t even get overtime. Instead, the owner would keep track of all my hours, and I would get time off when the company could afford to do without me.

      I should have walked out right away. Instead, I stayed until 9:00 PM, and then, on my second day there, I gave notice. I said that I was willing to work there from 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM, Monday through Friday, until they hired my replacement. Two days later, I was told not to come back. I was just glad that it was my first job, that i hadn’t quit another job to go work there.

    20. Cat wrangler*

      My dream job was a dream until a client made a wrongful complaint about me (they complained that they hadn’t been sent by post when the policy was always email to a named account as we were a publicly funded service. Moreover the email acount they used to complain from was different from the one they had written down on the attendance sheet – which had received the information!) instead of investigating it internally before responding to the client, I was thrown under the bus by the relevant administration and ordered to rectify it in an email copied to the client. I ended up making a counter complaint about how the complaint had been handled internally after I forwarded the original email trail to the new provided address. I suspect that the client wanted a word copy of the information instead of printing their own copy and felt that we should provide it like it was 1989. The attitude from my manager was appalling though: she told me I should grow a thicker skin and didn’t understand that the jumping to conclusions bit from my organisation and taking the client’s word as gospel before investigating was the bit that stung (clients were forever arguing and complaining so you follow the protocol of dealing with them) – you expect your organisation to have your back! I left a few months later.

    21. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I took a job that was essentially pitched as doing what I was doing prior, only for a thriving company. I loved my previous job but due to health issues my boss couldn’t keep running it and the economy was tanking, so it was a slow grind on meager means. So imagine my thrill to find another place with a much livelier staff and growth instead of decline etc. The owners said they wanted someone who could manage it with them just doing their own thing, they’d be able to spend less time there to take care of aging parents and life things. Right up my ally…

      Then the bottom dropped out. They were a nightmare to work with. Hands off indeed, until they saw they were bleeding money and started slashing staff when the place couldn’t run on the few souls they kept around. They were prone to backstabbing and scapegoating. They went from adoring me to writing me up for ridiculous comments I made as jokes months before and they laughed at, joked back at me about etc but suddenly when they were mad, I was Public Enemy 1.

      I quit. Found somewhere that respects me and isn’t owned by craycrays.

      1. tina*

        This sounds like the place I was just let go from.
        Chaotic company, I ended up mainly doing project management instead of the programming I have been hired for. Helped them to develop a plan for the ridiculous deadline they set up and once everything was starting to fall into place they told me I was doing stellar work but my communication was disrespectful and solving that would take too much time.
        Scared start-up founders with no tech experience running a tech company now without a tech lead and only a part time IT student :D

    22. Queenie*

      The “dream job” pulled the bait and switch. After a month or so it was apparent I was being misled and fed a lot of lip service. It’s super disappointing but better to find out early rather than when you’re super invested in the company!

    23. Astrea*

      I…don’t know if that’s happened to me. My dream jobs have met my expectations, and my only nightmare job was one I was pressured into taking but really didn’t want to take. How do you define a loss of “dream” status? Is it still a “dream” if you want another job like it? When I interned at an aquarium, that was a dream job. It brought some unexpected struggles — the constant standing worsened my chronic knee pain, I disliked being in the cold darkness all day, and even being near tanks of marine life didn’t satisfy me when other staff got to go *in* those tanks. But I still loved it, and want another such job more than anything. It was imperfect, but I think it still qualifies as “dream.” When I was a park ranger, it was frustrating and exhausting and I felt totally burned out by the end of a season, but it’s a job I excelled at and wish I could have again. So I don’t know.

      That said, I’ve witnessed the difference between what a job can be like and what outsiders think it’s like. When I was a ranger, the park was mixing up the jobs of educators and visitor center staffers so that each could do some of the other’s work. As a visitor center staffer, I greatly appreciated the chance to give some programs, but the educators did *not* like serving on the front lines at the often-extremely-busy information desk. Once, on an especially bad day when the center was teeming and I would have thought it was obviously a not-fun environment at that moment, a visitor asked one of the very stressed educators “So, what’s it like to have the best job in the world?” Luckily, I think she managed to laugh instead of figuratively biting his head off. (Another visitor once told me he would give up his “immortal soul” for my job, which I wouldn’t have been quite willing to do).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I think it’s a dream job (or close enough) if you’d go back to it (or take one just like it) with all the good and bad. I’ve had several jobs like that. You can recognize the crap parts of a dream job and still love it and want to stay because it’s crap you can live with and the great parts more than make up for it.

        The loss of a dream job is more when you were told/believed it was going to be perfect for you and it turns out to be so, so bad in at least one significant way that breaks it for you or makes you truly unhappy. For example, I interviewed at two companies that seemed like such good fits for me on paper. At one, the work part sounded great but the daily 2-3 hour driving commute in heavy accident-prone traffic would have broken me. At the other, I would have been doing the kind of research that I find fascinating, but the company objective for how to apply that research was so not what I was interested in and everyone I talked to had totally bought into the Vision.

    24. Animal worker*

      I’ll say mine came in stages. First, the job they posted and the job they wanted were not the same, which I luckily found out through sources before the interview so I wasn’t ambushed without preparation as to how I felt about it; think advertising job 1, but wanting to take job 1 with job 2 that someone was retiring from soon and combine them so job became 1 and 2. I had lots of skills and experience in job 1, few for job 2 and it was a level above but not one to which I aspired. But I wanted to work there so bad I was willing to try – strike one.

      Strike two was new grandboss reaching out to old grandboss about my application when I hadn’t told old grandboss about (I had actually told boss that I was applying, and she was very supportive).

      Strike two and a half – I ended up working a 2 1/2 month notice at my old job – strangely enough as an agreement between the old and new grandbosses. About a month before I started new job they had a long-term employee pass away very suddenly, which affected my position greatly. So right from the beginning things were different than I originally envisioned.

      Strike three, four, five and six – It took a little over a year to find some significant differences of philosophy in critical areas with my big boss – things they weren’t going to change and that I couldn’t work within – so it was then that I knew that the ‘dream job’ was not going to be the long-term, rest of my career placement I had hoped for, and I began looking elsewhere. Before I found anything an event occurred that fractured the relationship for good involving a safety and welfare issue that I just couldn’t accept. The time from then until I actually left – which was definitely a mutual parting of the ways – was incredibly toxic and one of the most stressful situations I’ve ever dealt with. Took some time, lots of stress, but I landed on my feet and am in a solid place that I can hopefully stay long-term.

    25. Slartibartfast*

      About a month. I was misled. I would like to believe it wasn’t intentional, but I suspect it was. The person who hired me was very different in private from the way they represented themselves to the world at large.

    26. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Took 2 years. They promised cool projects, which were removed at the last minute. They did desk chair limbo, so I lost my lovely window office and ended up with a windowless office much smaller. As one coworker told me before I left, it was like I was getting demoted. Even though I was getting a pay raise at the time, it still felt awful. The place took men more seriously than women, and my immediate boss grew even more nitpicky and micromanaging as the years went by, even though by all accounts I was doing a fantastic job. They didn’t have maternity leave either (tiny less than 25 person company). When I gave notice they were quite perplexed, and my boss didn’t congratulate me. But when I told my friends (who’d long since left, they excitedly congratulated me for escaping…)

    27. MissDisplaced*

      Usually the ‘dream job’ sours when there’s a manager change or a major change with company structure (merger, ownership, etc.).
      My story was both. Great manager left at time of divestiture. New manager came 1 year later, plus a company move and a new CEO. Needless to say, not the same company anymore, and not for the better.

    28. Silver*

      My ‘dream job’ my boss and the CEO hated each other. It was bad.
      The would publicly undermine each other, give conflicting instructions, change things at the last minute which meant me working until midnight. It was draining.
      I finally jumped ship with no job to go to. Landed in a maternity fill role for a great company not two weeks later so all ended well.

  2. Captain Fluffybutt*

    Hi all! Very happy Friday to you all, this week feels like one of the longest in my life and I’m glad to see the back of it!
    On Monday I had a meeting with my boss. It was not a good meeting and essentially had a list of things to improve. Essentially it seems to boil down to our resident dead weight team member Tarquin (who is struggling with core elements of his job nearly 1 year after joining), has explained away his (often blatant) performance issues as me not being supportive and approachable enough. Now I admit have been frustrated and I’ve raised the performance issues with my boss, but she is very opaque about it saying it’s being worked on and to trust her. Meanwhile me and the rest of the team all work to cover his slack – I’ve explained to her it’s impacting my ability to do my own work, but she insists to be patient. Anyway, in the meeting she said that it wasn’t formal yet, but that if there wasn’t improvement it will be. I have a list of stuff to work on and review meetings, but honestly I feel shattered by the whole experience. I have always worked hard and my work is all to a high standard and I have lots of strengths, but I’m not the most warm or friendly of people. I’m also stunned that it seems that it’s fine for Tarquin to coast by on poor quality work and that that doesn’t seem to be taken as seriously as this is. Like if I thought Tarquin was getting this same informal (but also formal) meeting and action plan it wouldn’t hurt so much – but from what little she’s told me it doesn’t seem he is. It seems that her solution is that rather than speak to Tarquin about his performance I’ve instead been told to keep helping him. Probably because she knows I will listen and do it. She keeps defending him as being friendly and well liked.
    So all in all a terrible week where I’ve done a fraction of my work as I’ve been having to help everyone else with theirs. I feel incredibly demotivated and like there is no point being good at your job apparently as it’s more important to be liked. I’ve got a lot to work on, so I’m planning to take on the feedback and get past the reviews. Then start looking for somewhere else, as long term I don’t want to be stuck picking up someone else’s slack because my boss doesn’t want to address performance issues.

    I don’t know if there’s any advice for me other than to take on the feedback I’ve recieved, but it does feel good to vent!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Eugh, I’m sorry that this is happening.

      The old “friendly and well-liked incompetent” versus “slightly cool but competent” is deeply annoying. It would frustrate me too being in your situation and depending on how much I liked the job normally, I would be looking for a new job. I hate the fact that he’s been in the position for a year and management don’t seem to be doing anything. I know it takes a while to get used to a new job but I do feel that at the year mark there should be visible and obvious signs of competence, no matter how friendly and well-liked a person is.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I was also going to say that your boss sucks, and it’s time to move on. Take comfort in the fact that your boss will end up with a team full of Tarquins eventually.

    2. Lupin Lady*

      I’m so sorry for you, this is a really awful experience. Hopefully someone has some helpful advise for you!

    3. Me*

      I mean….get out.

      Same situation. Coworker with the same title and same job literally does nothing. Boss, who is also horrible in own way, knows there is an issue and has been “working on it” for over a year. Meanwhile, I’m getting micromanaged for fun. It’s bred a resentment that is coloring my entire view of my job. I hate coming in to work and it’s hard to be a nice person when you work with jerks.

      Get out before you get bitter. I waited too long and while I’m now actively searching, I am also responsible for putting myself through this. You can’t control others, only yourself.

      1. Captain Fluffybutt*

        See aside from this one (admittedly big) issue my boss is overall very good. There was a bad situation last year for me, where she (over 9 months) said she was working on it and to trust her. Then in the space of a day the issue was resolved – essentially moved from a toxic team into another with an adjusted role (it’s what I wanted). However throughout that she was communicating and I felt listened to with frustrations. With Tarquin it feels like I’m being blamed for his performance and my concerns are being brushed off.

        I was close to leaving over the previous issue so my CV is recently updated, just needs a few tweaks. As long as this doesn’t go formal then it shouldn’t leave a mark on my record, but I don’t know how it’d affect my bosses reference!

        1. Me*

          I get it, I do. Only you know if it’s tenable or not.

          What solidified it for me was the no improvement after a looooooong time and the thought of the 10 more years I need until retirement working like this.

          Not only has Tarquin demonstrably not improved, ie the situation hasn’t improved, but it’s gotten worse – you are being held accountable for a bad employee and a bad manager.

          Alison addresses it a bunch, but many places understand the current boss can’t be contacted. Is there someone else who can vouch for your work there?

          That said, if your manager is otherwise good, can you request a meeting? Say you take her feedback seriously and will work to address the issues. Tell her you would like advice on some past situation pertinent to the feedback and ask how should would have wanted you to handle it. Either it might make her think that she’s being unfair or it might help you clarify that you are expected to be incompetent’s keeper.

          Good luck!

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Problem is, this issue will eventually taint everything else about the job, and it’ll be a lot harder for you in the long run.

          The fact that it took 9 months for a massive issue that was going to make you leave to be addressed – that itself is an issue.

          2. WellRed*

            Yes, nine months is not a good boss fixing things. Also, “trust me” is kinda dismissive and opaque.

        3. Astor*

          As long as this doesn’t go formal then it shouldn’t leave a mark on my record

          To me, this is the part that means that you really have to get out and cannot wait to see what happens. If you’re worried about it going on your record, then it’s likely going to get worse.

    4. Adam V*

      Yeah, I don’t know how much “taking on the feedback” I’d be doing versus how much job-searching I’d do instead. Maybe just stop by his desk every hour or so with a fake smile and ask him “so what are you stuck on now and how can I help?”

    5. Quinalla*

      I would try and make it more your boss’ problem. Say that to cover X, Y & Z of Tarquin’s tasks, I will need to push back deadlines on A, B or C project. How do you want me to prioritize my work? Doesn’t have to be that exact wording of course, but something that makes your boss really see the consequences and make choices. At the very least I would document what items you are doing and approximate time it is taking and give that to your boss at your next meeting so they have a better idea of the impact this is having on you.

      Also, I know you don’t know, but I would not assume that nothing is being done with Tarquin, but I would try to find out more at least if he is also being talked to about his performance and working on a plan? You be clear you don’t want or need or expect details, but just to know that your company has a structured way to deal with this kind of thing. If you find out that no, nothing is really being done to address this directly with him, I would be seriously considering sending out resumes because that is not a place you want to continue to work at if they can’t handle performance issues and firing when needed in a way that is fair to their employees.

      Last, I would try and separate the comments to be more approachable and warm from the Tarquin issue. Ask if your boss has feedback from anyone else (since it sounds like your boss shared it came from Tarquin or are you just assuming?) about this being an issue? Not everyone is going to be all smiles and warm and fuzzy at work, nor should they, but there is a certain level of approach-ability and warmth that everyone should aim for at work and if it is something your boss is concerned about outside the Tarquin issue, you should take it for a separate thing to possibly work on.

    6. Approval is optional*

      Totally sucks!
      I’d think about doing the following:
      1. documenting the time you spend helping Tarquin/doing Tarquin’s work over the next couple of days/week or whatever makes sense,
      2. meeting with your manager and laying the documentation in front of her and saying that as you spent x hours helping him as directed, you need to ‘drop’ some of your own duties/projects and your plan is to not do y and z. If she says you have to complete all of it, push back – ‘Doing all my duties isn’t an option when I only have [%] of a normal working week left.’ – and stick to it.
      3.documenting the discussion – and any agreement on what to drop especially.
      4.continuing to meet with her regularly and at each meeting set out what you are ‘dropping’.
      5. be approachable and support Tarquin (even if you have to stick pins in a voodoo doll when you get home to cope) – you’re not ‘sulking’, you’re not taking it out on him – you’re doing as you were directed (so she has no ‘excuse’ to make the feedback ‘formal’). Have regular meetings with him and minute what you’ve helped him with/coached him on , if you train him formally, document the process/objectives/assessment etc.
      She is doing this, in part at least, because she knows you’ll do what you say you’ll do – take on the feedback and get past it and try to do your work *and* Tarquin’s- she’s counting on your not making her life difficult about it: she gets to not manage Tarquin and not get flack from you, so maybe give her some flack! The objective of the plan is to do as she directs you with regard to helping Tarquin, but not let her avoid the consequences of her directive.
      Obviously if you think she’s the sort of manager who would give you a bad reference, put you on a PIP straight away, fire you or the like then this won’t be a good strategy but worth thinking about perhaps?
      In addition – is it possible for the whole team to push back on doing Tarquin’s work for him? I doubt you’re the only one not happy about this – perhaps each person could propose duties they’ll ‘drop’.

      And of course job hunt – even if you push back and she deals with Tarquin, she’s shown who she is as a manager and it’s unlikely to be the last time she takes the line of least resistance to the detriment of you and/or some of your coworkers.

    7. V*

      I’ve been noticing a trend with my friends and family lately where the person who cares the most about their actual work and/or the company’s mission is weirdly the first person to get let go. I’m guessing here but I think it has something to do with the intensity you have towards your work making other people uncomfortable and the fact that you care so deeply means that they can mess with you the most (i.e. nothing’s going to land with the fun-loving co-worker so why bother coming for them).

      Negative feedback is hard but try to take it in a vacuum separate from your garbage coworker. There is likely at least something there that can help you to become better, even if it’s icing on the cake of you already being a great worker. There’s always something we can all improve and it should be our goal to make ourselves better. I’ve definitely been there where I felt like I was getting undue criticism vs. coworkers but once I just focused on myself it was much easier to swallow – I could pick out the gems and I actually did improve a lot. Information is your friend.

      I know it’s really hard to do when you are really invested in your job, but try to just honestly relax and have a little fun at work. Go out to coffee or lunch with a coworker or a networking opportunity. Remind yourself why you do the work. Make a joke. Let yourself emotionally disengage from your work a bit, imagine yourself as a bird in the sky viewing it all objectively. Remind yourself that it’s not your company. Look for other opportunities outside, even going on some other interviews can make you feel appreciated/validated and help you feel better at work.

    8. Master Bean Counter*

      It really sucks when work turns into a popularity contest. That really only plays well in Sales.
      I think having an exit strategy is the way to go here.

    9. Competent Commenter*

      I hope you can get out relatively soon. If your supervisor likes Tarquin’s behavior so much, she should be given lots of time to enjoy it directly without you getting in the way. :)

    10. Mockingjay*

      This is where you can use Alison’s script: “Sure boss, I can help Tarquin, but that means I won’t be able to finish A, B, and C. What should I prioritize?” Keep flipping it back to her.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I think your boss does not know how to manage.

      You can ask for some idea of time frame. How much longer will you be expected to do his work?

      You can ask for someone to be assigned to him so everyone is freed up to do their work.

      Depending on the setting you may consider (ask trustworthy people around you) that you could ask for a raise because you are basically supervising this guy.

      I don’t understand why you are doing this alone, please involve your teammates with this matter. Get them to talk to the boss also. In desperation what I have said is “Don’t complain to me about Bob. Go tell the boss.”

      From the two examples you have here your boss is pretty spineless. I might be tempted to agree to do his work and job hunt like heck every night after work. For the most part, I can either spend my energy advocating for myself at work OR I can job hunt at night. I don’t have enough energy to do both for any great length of time. If your boss won’t set a time frame then set one for yourself. How long are you willing to wait here? A month? Six months? You were finished yesterday?

    12. CupcakeCounter*

      Wow…your manager really sucks
      Any way you can go above her head with documentation of the issues?

    13. JGray*

      You have my sympathy. I was in the same boat last year. I get promoted so need to replace my old job. We hired someone within the organization. I am bringing up performance issues (i.e. her not doing her job) but she’s lying and saying that I am not helping her and being mean to her. I meanwhile am picking up the slack and working two jobs. My boss fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Luckily for me she ended up quitting and then I discovered that her & another coworker were sending very disparaging messages about me over a work provided instant messaging system- things such as my hair is horrible, my clothes are horrible, and I can’t do my job. I turned my other coworker in to my boss but I think my boss (since she’s a new boss) actually didn’t put much stock into it because of the lies that had already been told about me. So now I am trying to find another job that pays what I make now but so far no luck

    14. Singin in the Rain*

      You have my sympathies. Early in my career, I experienced something very similar. I was part of a management team at a retail chain and good at my job, but was never able to break into the main clique at work. The employee I was supervising was very incompetent, but also very well-liked by the main clique. I was brought in for a similar talk with our general manager – nothing about my job performance was off, but I wasn’t “fitting in” and I needed to be nicer to the employee as she felt I didn’t like her. My biggest regret is staying in that situation until they found a reason to let me go. I knew was not a great working environment, and I hated it there; I should have walked away. My only consolation was that the incompetent employee was let go less than 2 months later because one night while closing the store, she left her store keys lying around and someone picked them up. By the next morning, the entire contents of our very large stockroom was gone and it was the largest merchandise loss in company history.

      I did learn the value of being more friendly and approachable at work and developing those relationships. I’m naturally an introvert and more inward, so it’s taken several years of working on these skills, but these days I am seen as being very friendly, which does make life easier.

      However, it also helps to be around people who don’t suck. And in your situation, it sounds like your colleague and, more unfortunately your boss, both kind of suck. I would be looking for another job.

    15. Bawab*

      Until I saw your reply below, I thought we worked together. I am dealing with the same issue, and I hope the employee either gets it together or gets fired .

  3. Anonymous Educator*

    Did anyone listen to Kara Swisher’s interview with the CEO from Basecamp? It’s very interesting stuff in terms of work culture. No instant communication. No meetings. No bureaucracy for software changes. Paid vacations for employees (paying for the actual trip, not just the days taken). Only making a profit and doing good work. No goals for growth.

      1. Anu*

        Huh, I have Jason Fried’s book It Doesn’t Have to be Crazy at Work out from the library, and this is inspiring me to actually go read it.

        1. Anu*

          I have to say though, that while this interview is valuable, the idea that you have to go back-and-forth and back-and-forth with someone to schedule a meeting with them gives me the heebie-jeebies. I was in that kind of environment in grad school, and setting up a meeting was like herding cats. It’s soooooo much easier in a corporate environment where you can see people’s calendars and figure out a time slot that works for everyone without having to resort to Doodle polls. That said, people need to be able to say no, and my company does have a culture of being able to say – actually I’ll be working on something very important that day, can we just move this to next week? And people understand that.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Yeah, I wasn’t really with him on the “Call up someone to schedule a meeting” instead of “Just find an available slot on her calendar” bit or the “Don’t bother with emails. If it’s important, the person will bug you again.” Seriously? So it’s your job to pester me if you want a meeting? Or it’s my job to pester you if you ignore my emails?

            Those had me scratching my head, but rest of what he said I was fully on board with.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I think all links go into a moderation queue initially, but it seems Alison’s finally approved it. See above.

    3. Susie Q*

      Caveat, I haven’t listened yet. But I don’t think I’d want my company paying for my vacation. I’d rather be paid a salary that allows me to pay for my own vacation.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        They claim to pay in the top 5% for the industry, and by San Francisco standards, even though they’ll let you live anywhere.

    4. ProperDose*

      This is SUPER refreshing. Such a great point about some of the “perks” at work. Or how everything became ASAP, and how they counter that

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Not everyone may agree with everything they practice at their company (personally, I’m a fan of answering emails and not just ignoring them), but I really like a company shaking things up and challenging the status quo of what’s hip for tech companies (or even non-tech companies).

    5. Anon for Now*

      Yes! It was fascinating. I loved the fact that he called out all these “tech perks” that are really just an excuse to get employees to work longer hours. Well and I really loved that he provided a paid trip for vacation as a perk.

    6. Midwest writer*

      I will have to take a listen later. I am super interested in the concept of, you know, just making a profit and that being good enough. I see lots of businesses being run out of business even though they make money, because they aren’t growing in some crazy, unsustainable way.

      1. Audrey*

        Totally agreed – I didn’t agree with everything in this talk, but we need to have companies that are going to just be small companies and the pressure for everything to be the next billion dollar startup is problematic.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          That’s a major problem, but I also think it can be applied to small businesses. I used to work for a small business (privately owned) that made a fair bit of profit every year, but the leadership was obsessed with setting targets for every year and—just as he said in this interview—setting the targets doesn’t do anything useful. If you hit the target, yay, I guess? If you don’t, you just feel bad. Better to focus on doing a good job and being profitable. A percentage up or down in any given year doesn’t mean much in the long run.

          1. TL -*

            Goals and targets are a good thing if they’re approached reasonably. You need a direction and a metric for a company to go in, even if it’s just “continue doing as well as we have been, things are all good.” And a way to track if that isn’t happening!

            Though those kinds of goals are better expressed as flexible ranges – we’re okay as long as we bring in 50-60 sales/month on average kind of thing.

  4. Meh*

    So I have a wording issue I’d like input on. Right now I’m a temporary worker (due to a grant) doing teapot design for a school (not teaching). I’ve expressed interest in being permanent there and my boss and his boss are onboard with the idea. However, after some back and forth, they have come back saying that they may be able to do it if my role changes to half teapot design and half managing a kitchen “maker space” where students can come and try designing teapots, pots, pans, kettles, etc.

    I would prefer if I could just do teapot design only and not have to deal with the kitchen maker space, but I’m willing to do it to keep the job (though I only really know teapots and not the other stuff). But my main concern is that right now teapot design takes up a lot of time and I worry that splitting it in half with this other responsibility will result in there not being enough time to do either task particularly well. How would you recommend voicing that concern without making it sound like I don’t want the job?

    1. IL JimP*

      How about something like:

      I like the idea of doing both roles moving forward but can we talk about what that would look like since I’m already doing teapot design full time? How do you see me balancing both teapot design & managing the maker space in this new role?

    2. Susie Q*

      I would try speaking with your boss and see what your responsibilities would be then talk to him about how you would want him to allocate your time.

      I would say “Boss, I really enjoy my work especially working at this company. You had mentioned that I could potentially stay on permanently if I did half teapot design and half managing a kitchen maker space. Could we speak more on the responsibilities of those two roles and how you see time being allocated between the two?”

      I’m not an expert but this is how I would approach it.

    3. Ann Non*

      You don’t say how the school is funded or whether the grant is permanent – I’m going to assume that it’s a publicly funded school and a temporary grant. Given this, do you know that your bosses have the ability to hire a full-time, permanent teapot designer?
      In my country, schools are not at all free to make their own hiring decisions; even teachers must be hired via a board; there are very few non-teacher positions available, and most of those would include hopping across schools in the district.
      Maybe by giving you additional duties they are able to divert money from different budgets to create the position/don’t have to share you with other schools? Of course you can still ask and see if they are willing to create your dream job, but there might be external constraints that are stricter than in the corporate world.

    4. MRK*

      I would frame it was time management/making sure all duties can be covered. “Currently I spend X hours a week doing A, B,and C. Could you tell me more about the daily tasks of running the maker space? I want to make sure I can do both these jobs to the best of my ability, so it would be great to get an idea of how my day would look.”
      I also suggest asking because running a maker space can be anything from “make sure things are tidy/stocked and answering an occasional question but otherwise you can work on your own projects while you’re there” to “totally hands on and essentially running a class all the time.”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Adding: Be sure to point out that you are having full days in the position you are now. You would not be able to work at this same pace if you went to half time here and half time at the space maker. Is that okay with them?

      If you want something even less aggressive ask them what they envision your average day would look like.

  5. Philippa*

    What are peoples’ opinion on religious symbols in the workplace? We have a new starter who wears a cross openly. So far she hasn’t tried to engage in any discussions about religion or anything (for all I know it’s purely decorative), but I thought it was generally frowned upon to display any religious symbols unless it’s mandatory (e.g. head coverings) or if that’s related to the nature of the work.

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t see the problem with it in in most situations. (I’m assuming it’s normal jewelry size and not like a Flava Flav gigantic cross.)

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m fine with it, as long as it’s not something obnoxious. If someone wants to wear a cross or a fish, that’s fine. If someone is plastering “No Jesus, no peace; know Jesus, know peace” or “Jesus is the only way” signs everywhere, that is definitely not cool.

      1. Pippa*

        “No Jesus, no peace” always triggers my smart arse reflexes

        “No drummer, no band”
        “No harm, no foul”
        “No shirt, no shoes, no service”

    3. Guy Incognito*

      If she’s not mentioning it, then it’s probably something important to her. I don’t think it’s an issue as long as no one is forcing anyone to do or listen to anything

    4. Coffee Bean*

      I think wearing it as a jewelry is absolutely okay. Even having a small motivational note on your desk is fine.

      That is their attire and area, and so long as it isn’t overboard, and they aren’t forcing religion into all conversations, then I see no issue.

      People have different religions, and that is part of who they are, they just need to be respectful of others.

    5. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wearing a cross at work, they’re usually pretty minor pieces of jewelry.

      When you say openly, do you mean it’s just visible or that it’s a piece that gives Flava Flav’s neckwear a run for its money?

        1. Namast'ay in Bed*

          Ha after it refreshed I saw your comment and was glad I wasn’t the only one who thought that too!
          *high fives back*

        2. Yvette*

          I am afraid that is a pop culture reference and should be avoided. :) Seriously, I always thought that displaying religious symbols did not mean to include a cross or Star of David necklace but was more along the lines of “don’t have a life size statue of whoever on your desk”

          1. Crooked Bird*

            “Whoever” is right! I think a life-size statue on your desk would be a problem even if it was, say, David Bowie… :)

    6. Foreign Octopus*

      Speaking as an atheist, it wouldn’t bother me unless it was accompanied by a sermon and an attempt to convert me and my sinful ways.

    7. Notthemomma*

      Totally normal to wear a necklace, ring, bracelet,etc. it’s part of their personal identity and what makes them an individual. Commenting that ‘I went to ——services’, or X religious holiday is coming up, or ‘I’m fasting for xxx’ is normal. Conversion, talking up or down a particular religion, and haranguing is not okay.

    8. Anonysand*

      I think this really depends on the context of your work industry, location, office culture, and how she is wearing the cross. I haven’t heard of any hard or fast rules against it, and living in the bible belt I’ve seen plenty of women wearing cross necklaces and it’s never been an issue (both in non-profits and the corporate sphere). But does your office try to maintain complete neutrality when dealing with politics, religion, and other sensitive topics? And there’s a big difference between wearing a necklace with a cross on it and showing up to work in a bedazzled Ed Hardy jacket with a rhinestone cross, which takes it from something personal to “in your face” territory.

      Honestly I would wait and see how things go- she could very likely never bring it up and it will be a total non-issue. And if not, then I would let her supervisor deal with it at that point.

      3. Pomona Sprout*

        Agreed. I don’t see why anyone should object to someone wearing any religious symbol jewelry that’s not in your face huge/tacky, whether it’s a cross, a star of David, a Unitarian Universalist chalice, a Baha’i 9 pointed star, or whatever. For those who choose to wear such things, they can be extremely meaningful as well as a treasured part of the person’s identity.

    10. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Jewelry is fine. It’s when it gets really in your face that it’s an issue, like asking me why Jews don’t celebrate Easter, and wanting to tell me all about your church’s seder because as a Jew I must want to hear all the details.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        Oh yeah, I just love to hear about my culture being appropriated! It doesn’t make me feel sad, angry, or violated at all! /s

        1. Arielle*

          My rabbi has a great story about talking to a woman who had been to a seder at her church and just found it so meaningful how the wine represented the blood of Christ.

    11. Temperance*

      I think a cross necklace on a person is different than a religious symbol posted in the workplace, if that makes sense.

      For example, I work with a person at a nonprofit who feels the need to have his email signature say “The Rev. John Smith, Esq.” and include his church title. I’m not super comfortable working with him because I think that’s inappropriate and strange. (His job is secular.)

      1. wait wait don't freeze me*

        Oh yeah, I have a coworker who has some very very religious stuff in his e-mail signature, along with an ~~inspirational picture. It’s nails on the chalkboard.

      2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Had a colleague who tried to insist on his religious credentials (which he was also super sketchy about … liked to insist that he was ordained, but wouldn’t tell us what denomination etc, which to me seems like a detail that’s important when committing to a life of service). We work for a government agency so that’s a no-go, as his job had nothing to do with his Reverend stuff. But it didn’t stop him from trying.
        It was very inappropriate and designed as a provocative act so that he could claim discrimination. We did our best to ignore it.

        But a nice quiet cross, not a problem.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          You can buy “ordinations” online for a ridiculously low amount of money, they don’t mean anything and I know people who have gotten them as jokes.

      3. Jack Be Nimble*

        I’ve got a couple coworkers with scripture in their email signatures, and it does make me a little nervous, since I’ve experienced religiously-motivated homophobic discrimination in the past. However, I also feel like my discomfort is mine to manage on this one–if they were peppering every conversation with Jesus-isms, or if I thought they were specifically directing the scripture at me, I’d speak to my manager, but I think that a passive, unobtrusive expression of faith is perfectly acceptable in a workplace.

        1. Temperance*

          Oh he’s a lawyer and some sort of minister. I think adding Esq. makes it more pretentious and weird. (I’m a lawyer, I get to judge this crap. lol )

    12. Baby Fishmouth*

      I don’t think it’s frowned upon to display religious symbols at work, as long as they aren’t being vocal/evangelical about it, and it’s within reason. For instance, wearing a cross around the neck would be fine; displaying a giant light up 5 foot cross next to their desk would not.

      If you try to dictate which religious symbols people can and cannot wear at work, it’s very easy to veer into inadvertent discrimination territory.

    13. Former Expat*

      I recommend a blog post called “I Can Tolerate Everything Except the Outgroup” (Or something similar, it’ll come up on Google). It really helped me think about what bothered me, e.g. say a coworker who wears a cross and what didn’t bother me, e.g. a coworker in a hijab. Check it out.

      1. Kat the Russian*

        Oooh, yes. That’s from Scott Alexander’s blog, SlateStarCodex, and I agree that it’s really a great post (great blog in general). I’d like to tl;dr it here but I’m not that good with words. All I can say is that it’s worth a read.

      2. Lissa*

        whoa that was was a very interesting article – I had never thought of things quite like the author put it, though of course it makes perfect sense! Explains too why people don’t like feeling “tolerated” and why that word has become synonymous with negative feelings to some degree.

    14. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      I think the general consensus here is clear, but also want to point out (anecdotally of course) that if someone wears a cross necklace every day and isn’t proselytizing, there is a good chance that the necklace is a prized object or gift that carries almost as much weight as a wedding ring. Asking someone to take it off when they’re wearing it discreetly might hurt them more than you’d intend.

      Obviously this doesn’t apply to everyone, but I’ve seen that a lot in Christian circles and it’s not something everyone knows, even other Christians.

      1. Dragoning*

        Yes, I also received a cross necklace when my great-grandmother passed, as a piece of her jewelry specifically picked by her to be given to me. I don’t wear it that often, but if I did and someone told me not, I would be very upset, not even for religious reasons.

        1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

          Same here!

          I’ve asked my friends and relatives before about cross necklaces and am always met with a story about somebody. I’ve yet to meet someone who purchased a cross necklace for themselves.

      2. KR*

        I was thinking this. I have a cross j display in my home because it was in my mom’s hands during her funeral. I’m not very religious but display the cross in a prominent way that, if you didn’t know me, would make it seem like I am religious.

      3. BigSigh*

        Same. I’m an atheist and occasionally wear a cross necklace as it’s a treasured gift from a relative that has since passed. Heck, I know someone who is heavily involved in religion to the point where he attends church services multiple times a week, attended only to religious schools, and nailed crosses over every door frame in his home (which I know from visiting). He has never once said a comment that could be taken as a conversion tactic.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            I think it’s actually the norm. The other way makes a more compelling anecdote, while talking about the weather rather than religion isn’t worthy of comment.

      4. Parenthetically*

        Yes, agreed. And it doesn’t even necessarily bear a specifically religious significance to the wearer. Cross necklaces are common Confirmation gifts for girls, and I know many women who wore the necklaces as a treasured (and often expensive) reminder of childhood/parental love/lingering affection for part of their religious upbringing LONG after they had decided not to identify with Christianity any more.

      5. Saucy N Mossy*

        Yeah, I have a rosary in my car. While I guess I am technically Catholic, I certainly am not practicing. I got the Rosary as a gift for my grandmother several years ago from the Vatican…even went as far as to have it blessed there.
        When she died, it was draped over her coffin for the service. She wanted to be cremated and interred in a different city, so the rosary was returned to me. I have not taken it out of my car since that day. To anyone getting in my car I probably look like a very religious person who prays every time I start my vehicle!

        I also havea St Christopher keychain from my now deceased grandfather and extensive collection of pictures of Catholic churches that I took during my travels through Europe….yet I could not tell you the names of the gospels or apostles or books of the bible anything like that.

    15. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I think it’s totally fine to wear a piece of jewelry that’s a religious symbol or have minimal decorations in their cube at work as long as their actions don’t make other people feel alienated for not belonging to their faith, for example I had a former boss who was trying to convert me to her faith and that was so so so inappropriate. I’m not personally very religious but freedom of religion is important to me (though if you’re not from the U.S. that may not be relevant to you) and I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where someone was told off for wearing a cross necklace and doing nothing else that could be construed as inappropriate.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a cross, whatsoever. But it’s different from a headcovering because I don’t know of any religion that requires its followers to actually wear a cross. (I await correction, obviously!)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Whoops… just saw what Zeldalaw posted. So yes, if it’s that kind of situation, the cross is the equivalent of a head covering.

        2. JG Wave*

          I think there are also… different levels of “mandatory,” especially in a country like the United States. The laws of my religion mandate certain head coverings for certain people, and there are people in my local community who do seem them as mandatory for themselves but not other people, and some who agree that they are mandatory but don’t always wear them for their own safety or comfort.

          I’m not sure if this distinction actually makes sense. I guess I just mean that, functionally, it doesn’t matter if “the religion” requires people to do something or not, because according to US law, they can’t enforce that! It’s really up to whether the individual FEELS that they are required to do something by their own conception of religion. That’s the defining issue, and in that case there is very little difference between a head covering or a piece of religious jewelry.

        3. ket*

          Wearing a hijab isn’t mandatory, though, if we’re speaking strictly about Islamic rules. There’s a lot of debate among Islamic thinkers about this and the ‘scarves not necessary’ group has some really respected scholars. In some families, it is ‘mandatory’ in that mom/dad say so; in some countries, it is mandated by law; in many communities, it’s required by community agreement/pressure; some women see it as not mandatory but as a choice they make to symbolize their commitments.

          1. hello*

            A hijab is also not a religious symbol though. I mean obviously it has religious meaning, but it’s an article of clothing, like a Mormon wearing long sleeves, as opposed to a symbol.

    17. Dragoning*

      I think that’s fine–as would be a Star of David, or an Om, or anything else.

      If she’s not preaching or imposing it on you, let her express her religion in her own way.

    18. Zeldalaw*

      This could be less “optional” than you think and it may be mandatory for them. There are some Christian denominations, such as some (all?) Orthodox, who do see wearing crosses as mandatory.

      1. I Know a Lot of Priests and Nuns*

        Yeah I am Orthodox and in a lot of areas within the church wearing a cross isn’t even seen as wearing “jewelry”- it’s not a decorative/aesthetic choice it is a part of the religious practice.

        1. Faith*

          I’m Orthodox, and I would agree with your statement that it’s a part of the religious practice with a caveat that your baptismal cross is worn under your shirt, and is not visible to others as a regular piece of jewelry would be.

          1. I Know a Lot of Priests and Nuns*

            Yes, I agree with that in most practices but in the US at least, you will find that is not a universal amongst all jurisdictions (not to mention, baptismal crosses often don’t make it past a toddler age of attempts to eat your cross)(or so I have heard). I’ve seen many people who wear a 3 bar cross over the shirt as one would any pendant. Whether that’s right or wrong is a discussion I’ll leave for some Orthoweb blog ;)

    19. SemiRetirdd*

      There was a woman character in some recent show that always wore a cross and I found it incongruous; it didn’t make sense in context. A spy maybe? Does this ring a bell with anyone? Maybe a doctor? I always thought she wouldn’t be allowed to do that in real life, in her profession.

      2. TL -*

        I’ve definitely known doctors who wear a cross. There’s nothing wrong or inappropriate about it.

        1. SemiRetired*

          Might have been Skully, will check. Or Carrie W in Homeland? You are correct, it wouldn’t strike me as off on a doctor. (Hm, maybe that SVU Special Victims character? It didn’t seem “inappropriate” just strangely girlish and kind of out of place for the character.)

    20. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Jewelry is jewelry. She’s not hanging a cross from her cubicle wall or creating a barrier from a stack of bibles.

      I wear a Star of David necklace almost every day, even with v-necks, and I would be really offended if someone told me not to wear it. I don’t wear this at you. I wear it as, among other reasons, an identifier of myself.

    22. Eeyore's missing tail*

      I wear a St. Rita medallion every day and my cross several times a month. My medallion is very important to me, but I don’t discuss my faith at work. The only time it comes up in conversation is if we’re talking about weekend plans and sometimes I add something like “DH and I are going to church Sunday, then we’ll be out shopping.”

      If someone tried to tell me that another woman in my office was fine to wear her headscarf, but my medallion had to go, then I’d be heading over to HR and EOO to find out why. As long as she’s not trying to convert anyone, I’d say leave it be.

    23. londonedit*

      I think it does depend on culture/location. Where I live, it’s very rare for people to evangelise when it comes to religion – in fact, it’s mostly frowned upon to talk about religion in most social circles (apart from if you’re in church, obviously!) So someone wearing a necklace with a cross wouldn’t immediately come across to me as someone who was ‘displaying a religious symbol’. I’d probably assume they were religious, simply because I’m not and I wouldn’t wear a cross, but many people in the UK are sort of ‘nominally Church of England’ without being particularly religious, so it wouldn’t ring alarm bells for me. Plenty of people who are ‘vaguely religious’ receive cross necklaces when they get married, or for a birthday, and wear them without there being an ‘I Am Proclaiming My Christianity’ meaning to it.

      1. TL -*

        There’s nothing wrong with wearing a cross to proclaim your Christianity, though – would you tell a Sikh not to wear their kara (bracelet) because it is intended in part to be a visual identifier of a Sikh? Or an Orthodox Jew to stop dressing in a way that identifies them as a Jew?

        Evangelizing at work is not okay, but marking yourself as someone of a particular faith is absolutely okay. Even if the person’s sole reason for wearing a cross is so other people can recognize her as Christian – that’s absolutely fine.

    24. Hailrobonia*

      As others have pointed out, small things like jewelry, etc. are fine.

      There was one an employee in our central accounting office that had Bible and other religious quotes in her email signature line. We are a secular university… I am very surprised nobody put a stop to that. Does anybody really need to be “reminded” that “Christ is King” in an email confirming receipt of a purchase order?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        At Exjob, we weren’t supposed to have any slogans in our email signatures at all, no matter what they were. But people did it anyway and nobody did anything. I was always tempted to put a Joker quote or something in mine, LOL.

        Elizabeth West
        Assistant, Widget Consulting Group
        212-867-5309
        elizabethwest at xyzcompany dot com
        “Why so serious?”

        :D

        1. Asenath*

          A while back, my employer decided we all had to have the same email sigs. I didn’t like it much – not because I ever put anything non-work related in mine, but because the authorized version is longer than the content of some of my emails. Still, I put up with it. The employer can specify the sig I use.

        2. Dragoning*

          My boss used to have a Ghandi quote in his until our director mandated that all our signatures had to be formatted the same way and include the same kinds of information–out it went.

          It was annoying anyway.

        1. Beth Anne*

          That is in reference to the bible verses in email signatures. I think religious jewelry is fine I’ve always worn a cross most of my life.

    25. Doodle*

      I work at a public university, lots of direct student contact in my office, my department values (as in, if you ask us to list what are the essential values we as a department live and work by) diversity and inclusion, the university says diversity and inclusion are also its values. We’ve discussed this issue as a department and here are our guidelines: we can wear jewelry with religious symbols as long as it does not cross the line into proselytizing or advertising (love the Flavor Flav refs). Religious clothing: we follow federal law on this one. Office decorations: strictly non-religious, and we need to consider whether anything will be offensive or intolerant, and in particular whether it will make a student so uncomfortable that they will not feel safe talking to us about important stuff.

      So, no one who comes to my office is going to miss that I’m a feminist and I’ve got opinions, but I keep my Obama 2012 button put away. I have certificates posted for trainings I’ve done for LGBTQ, racial equality, and veterans issues , and my door has an Everybody Welcom Here mini poster. I have a small book of psalms that I look into fairly regularly, but it’s tucked back where others cannot see it if they’re sitting near my desk. (In fact, no one at my office could say with any accuracy whatsoever what my religious beliefs or unbeliefs are, but that’s just me.)

    26. Micromanagered*

      FWIW I’m an atheist. Even if she were attempting to engage in religious discussions, that wouldn’t make the cross an issue for me — the issue would still be that she is attempting to engage in religious discussions at work.

      Unless you work in an field where there is an increased need to remain religiously neutral (I’m thinking like a public school teacher or social worker or something?), it should not be an issue.

    27. Karen from Finance*

      It depends a lot on the culture. I wear a holy spirit chain, and I also have an ankh ring. I’m not Christian much like I’m not of the Ancient Egyptian faith, I wear both symbols because of the ideas that they represent more than the whole religion behind them. But most people assume that I’m a Christian when they see me.

      I don’t think there should be a problem with it unless she’s being too much in people’s faces with it, like other commenters have said: if it’s just the cross and no comments, it’s fine. I think the line is whether she’s making anyone uncomfortable and how reasonable they would be to feel that way.

    28. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Would you be asking this if she were wearing a star of David? I doubt it.

      Jewelry is not a cause for alarm. It’s not a sign she’ll ever start preaching to you.

      I wear cross earrings some days.

      I have a rosary in my car. I speak about religion 0 times a day at work.

    29. JJJJShabado*

      So this wound up being an issue in England in 2012-2013. A British Airways worker was told not to wear a cross and she wound up suing and winning the right to wear it.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-21025332

      I agree that it being in your face (whether the cross itself or prosthelytizing) is the issue and not necessarily the cross itself.

    30. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Just wearing a reasonably sized cross? No issues from me. I actually have a pair of earrings that are the same shape as a religious symbol, but it’s not religious to me, it’s the symbol of an organization that I’m affiliated with.

    31. ElspethGC*

      My dad wears a St Christopher – for safe travel – even though he isn’t religious. It was from his mum, who was fairly actively religious, because he started travelling to work. I’m sure my nana thought it had a religious meaning. To my dad, it’s just a chain with a medallion that has memories of his mum. At some point in the future, if I inherit it, I’ll probably wear it too because it has memories of both of them, but I’m completely and utterly non-religious. Someone Catholic might see it and think my family are Catholic, but no.

      Unless you live somewhere like France, where certain jobs aren’t allowed to wear any religious symbols whatsoever, you don’t want to be that boss. Maybe she is Christian, or maybe it’s just an heirloom, but either way.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        I wear a St. Joseph medal for similar reasons, despite being irreligious (although my family is Catholic). Sometimes jewelry is just jewelry, sometimes it has more significance. Either way, it’s not an issue.

    32. Jules the 3rd*

      US South specific: Wearing religious symbols is fine in most offices as long as you don’t talk about it beyond a short, friendly reply in response to a direct question about it. Part of personal expression.

    33. Justme, the OG*

      I have no issue with a cross or other religious symbol on their body. I would though if it were hung on a wall.

    34. DAMitsDevon*

      Like everyone else is saying, it’s pretty much a non-issue if someone is just wearing a fairly small piece of jewelry. The only way I could see it causing a potential issue is if it was in a job where all employees are prohibited from wearing jewelry (either for some sort of safety issue or if they have strict uniform requirements), regardless of whether or not said jewelry is religious. Though that doesn’t seem to be the case at your office.

    35. Dog in a bag*

      Aw, remember the early Aughts when crosses were just a staple accessory for like, any and everyone? Maybe just for kids to early 20s people. I remember buying one from a vending machine at the move theater, despite being raised without religion at all. Oh, and the belly button rings my cool older cousin wore all had bedazzled crosses.

      After that cross jewelry doesn’t even ping as religious for me unless it’s accompanied by a bible in the hand, lol.

    36. Youth*

      I wear a ring with a religious symbol, but generally I don’t discuss my beliefs with people unless someone actually asks me about them. Once, a classmate of mine said, “I like your ring! Is it a Great Gatsby ring?” It does look a lot like the Great Gatsby crest from the movie! Even then, I just said “No” and didn’t elaborate.

      People usually wear religious symbols for themselves, not for others. It’s not really an advertisement.

    37. Parenthetically*

      “I thought it was generally frowned upon to display any religious symbols unless it’s mandatory”

      No, in fact, depending on where you live and what line of work you’re in, the right of religious adherents to wear a malah, rosary, kippah, ankh, cross, Star of David, hijab, om, crucifix, sheitel, Plain dress, etc., may be enshrined in law, and requiring that person to remove it could constitute illegal discrimination.

    38. Artemesia*

      I would not do it myself and find this sort of thing unseemly — but that is me. People have a right to do this and as long as they don’t try to engage people in religious discussion I would ignore it. It can be problematic in places where people of one religious group tend to gang up and bully those who are in minorities but it has long been considered part of freedom of religion.

    39. Nacho*

      In America, wearing a cross/Star of David/Hammer of Thor/any other religious symbol as a small necklace is generally considered fine and unobtrusive. I know in some other countries that’s not true though, so it will depend on where you are.

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        As a Norse Pagan, I thank you for including Hammer of Thor in your list of religious symbols.

    40. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Oh good grief. I’m kind of sad this is even a question.

      You have a person who has never engaged in any religious discussions with you and you are worried about a piece of jewelry on display? I can guarantee you that you are surrounded on a daily basis by people who are wearing religious jewelry. These people manage go about their daily lives quietly practicing their religion of choice without guerrilla baptizing those around them and damning all the sinners to their version of hell.

      Perhaps, a little less fixation on wrappings of your coworkers would be a good thing.

    41. Llellayena*

      There is no difference between wearing a cross and wearing a hijab or yarmulke. It’s just that the head coverings are more noticeable and less associated with “mainstream” religions (read: Christian) and so get most of the attention when it comes to discrimination. In all cases it is a personal expression of faith that manifests as something worn. No matter what faith, as long as they aren’t trying to proselytize and the necklace/head wear isn’t a safety issue, ignore it.

    42. AngelicGamer, the Visually Impaired Peep*

      I’m agnostic but I have a pretty cross necklace with purple stones that I love to wear. It’s got no religious significance to me at all and I would wear it to a workplace without thinking twice. In fact, I did in retail and nobody batted an eye about it – even cranky customers.

    43. anon4this*

      I’m an atheist and wear a gucci cross sometimes because it’s gucci and technically just because a symbol popularized by a particular religion doesn’t always make it religious (i.e. technically a cross is a just an “x” or a display of an ancient method of execution). I think it looks nice but has nothing to do with faith for me.

    44. Lilysparrow*

      Her jewelry on her body is her business, as long as it is otherwise conforming to the dress code in terms of size, jangling noises, etc.

      It is also none of your business whether she wears it for religious reasons, because it’s a family heirloom, a gift from a special person, or anything else.

    45. Seeking Second Childhood*

      In the US at least, she’s allowed to practice her religion — this would include wearing a cross or star of David or flying spaghetti monster image, and it would include saying she’s going to church/temple/PastaNight on her day off.
      What she’s NOT allowed to do is to proselytize and demand other people start joining her in her religious observance.

    46. Wow.*

      Seriously? I know it’s cool now to **** on Christians, but simply wearing a cross is offensive? Now I’ve heard it all.

      1. SemiRetired*

        I checked back in the thread and have not found a single person who claimed to be offended. The OP used the phrase “frowned upon” and raised it as a question, not a conclusion. So, no, you haven’t “heard it all,” or at least, you haven’t heard that. Get a grip, Wow.

    47. NewWorkingMama*

      I’m an atheist. I wear a cross. My dad gave it to me and it has sentimental value. One person in my career has mentioned it and it was a non-issue. Unless she’s talking about religion opening, she’s not wearing the cross AT you. She’s just wearing a cross.

    48. theletter*

      In the US, religious symbols are tolerated as part of the ‘freedom to express religion as long as it does not hinder anyone else’s ability to express their religion’ ethos. It’s only government institutions that have to remain secular. As you probably noticed, a lot of politicians wear their religion like a badge of honor.

      Jewelry is sometimes decorative, sometimes imbued with personal meaning, sometimes even used just for the symbols on it. Crosses don’t just summon Christianity to mind, a lot of people (NOT all people) perceive the cross as trustworthy, safe, with pure intentions.

      But the cross could just as easily be the gift from a beloved relative. You shouldn’t read into too much.

    49. mcr-red*

      I occasionally have worn a cross necklace to work. I have several. I have one that I bought at a secular store that’s a bunch of crosses that looks like I’m trying to ward off vampires, and I bought it because that’s what it looks like. I call it my vampire hunter necklace. I also have a small page a day calendar with scenery on it and some religious writings on it – sometimes a verse from the Bible or an inspirational quote.

      Also sitting on my desk? A little figure of Cthulhu, several space aliens, a vampire toy and a couple of superheroes. I have talked more about any one of those things at work than the calendar. I don’t know if I’ve ever, in all my years of working, ever talked about religion at work. Maybe calm down.

    50. Ladylike*

      Many people who wear crosses are not especially bold or zealous about their beliefs. It’s an extremely popular symbol for many reasons. Here in the Midwest, it’s so common to see a small cross necklace that no one bats an eye. To me, this is a total non-issue.

    52. MissDisplaced*

      Meh. No matter what it is: cross, Star of David, ankh, pentagram, coin, crystal or triple moon, it ought to be fine as with any other jewelry accessory in the office. That means professional and tasteful and understated.

      1. Lena Clare*

        +1.
        Also university jobs and school business manager/ governor posts might apply too, anything in those ‘publicy’ businesses which are organisational managementy.

    5. Nonprofiteer*

      Some NGOs have policy staff who work to influence governments and multi-laterals – either for their mission goals or for their own funding. E.g. we are a chicken pox org, the government should require vaccines and also fund orgs like us to provide them.

    6. Linda Evangelista*

      What kind of policy are you looking for? Basically every company in every industry has government relations, and the pay ranges accordingly. Federal policy jobs will be obviously based in or around DC, but there are state policy and lobbying jobs as well.

    7. epi*

      There are lots of things in the public health world. Health policy and administration is one of the major content areas of public health. But people in other areas also do policy work or work that could influence policy.

      Depending what you want to do, having experience working in health care or deep knowledge of particular health conditions or treatments can be very helpful.

    8. CaptainLaura*

      Basically any/every company that offers a product or service that is regulated by the government. My company has several pockets of “regulatory administration” professionals.

      Other areas that may interest you: mergers & acquisitions, contracts, supply chain. These have been very policy-heavy in my experience.

    9. Nesprin*

      Regulatory +/- QC in biotech/GMP manufacturing. Speaking healthcare there is a big deal, and the FDA’s compliance regs might be close enough

  7. Jenna*

    General question: how flexible are your working hours and how closely does your company/organisation monitor them?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I have pretty strict working hours, but my boss allows the people in my department to be fairly flexible about it. If my co-workers with kids have a kid emergency, they can leave early or come in late. We can take “sick days” to take care of loved ones. The main focus is on getting the job done. But, yeah, we still have regular hours we’re expected to be here unless there are extenuating circumstances.

    2. Coffee Bean*

      This really depends on the business. There are jobs where it is important that people are in their seats at a certain time, and the whole time (call center and retail for example). But then there are jobs where it is okay if people come and go on a more flexible schedule.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’m in higher ed and my job can be pretty flexible! I work 8-4 because commuting is much easier in the pre-rush hour. There are some evening/weekend events but my boss is diligent about making sure that if I’m working late or coming in over the weekend that I take a half-day sometime in the near future. For me it’s really just my supervisor trusting that I’m in when we decided I’d be in.

    4. Sophie before she was cool*

      I work remotely, and my hours are super flexible. I’m expected to be available during a consistent set of hours, but it doesn’t really matter which ones. I work 8am-12pm and 2pm-6pm to maximize timezone coverage and allow for coveted mid-day gym time, but I have coworkers who work 7am-3pm, 4pm-12am, etc. It’s not a big deal if I have an appointment/travel/commitment during those hours as long as I alert the people I’m working most closely with.

      As far as I know, my particular hours aren’t monitored as long as I’m working approximately 8 hours per day (7 or 9 is fine, outside of that my manager asks me what’s going on).

    5. Works in IT*

      My hours are very flexible, but there are designated blocks of time each day I am allowed to work, and can’t show up earlier than that or stay later than that. If I wanted to I could work ten hours every day for four days and take one day a week off, but I don’t do that because part of my responsibilities is maintaining a presence during business hours every day.

    6. Peachkins*

      Mine are fairly flexible. Technically each employee does have a set schedule, with some people choosing to start as early as 7:15 am and others as late as 10. Whatever start time we choose we’re expected to work our 8 hrs. If we need to make changes for some reason, we just need to let our manager know. My particular manager is extremely flexible- if I have an appointment during work hours, I just let her know and make up the time elsewhere during the week by coming in early or staying late (unless I want to use my time off- I generally don’t if I’m missing less than half a day, although I could if I wanted to). We do work from home now three days a week, and other than Monday, everyone is in the office on different days, so we sign into Skype at the start of the workday. I assume that’s probably how management monitors whether we’re online and working or not most of the time. Generally, I think as long as your work is getting done none of it’s a big deal.

    7. Youth*

      Mine are fairly flexible and I don’t have a ton of oversight in determining my schedule. However, if I didn’t work as quickly and efficiently as I’m told I do, I imagine I’d be kept on a tighter leash.

    8. KarenK*

      Pretty flexible. I’m salaried, and well-established and trusted in my position. Actually, what I do is the very definition of a salaried position. I have a job to do, and as long as I do it, no one fusses about how much I’m in the office. My supervisor does not monitor when I get in or when I leave. She trusts me to do my job without looking over my shoulder. I have two physician managers who also essentially give me free rein. It helps that a great deal of my job could be done from home.

      I absolutely love my job. It’s a good thing, because I’m nearing the end of my working life (retire in 5-6 years), and I could never go back to having a strict schedule (must be in by X time, can’t leave until X time, X minutes for lunch, X minutes for breaks). My idea of Hell.

    9. OtterB*

      I’m in a small not-for-profit member organization (so, not directly client-serving) and our working hours are extremely flexible. Most people have fairly regular schedules, in the sense that we know that personA is usually in before 8 but personB is often not in until 9:30. We’ll have occasional must-do times, usually when we’re having a staff meeting or running meetings for someone else, but otherwise we’re supposed to let people know if we’re on vacation, WFH or in late/out early (in case they’re looking for us) but it’s totally fine. We fill out a biweekly timesheet.

      My boss says he hires grownups and expects us to get the job done. A lot of our internal communication is by email anyway, and I won’t know and it won’t matter if the person is in their office down the hall, at home, or on the opposite coast for a work function.

    10. ThatGirl*

      My current job has fairly standard business hours, but at my last job we had a lot of flexibility; as long as we worked 8 hours and were there from at least 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. it could be 6-2:30 or 10-7 or some other configuration. We also had regular WFH days. While there were plenty of less-good things about that job, I always really appreciated that part.

    11. Dragoning*

      I’m expected to work 40 hours a week (disregarding things like holidays and time off requested in advance), sometimes more if something urgent happens.

      I’m hourly, so, I have to submit a time sheet. I’m also a contractor, so I don’t get paid vacation or sick days, but I’m still allowed to take them unpaid.

      I have a lot of flexibility (I think), though. If traffic or weather makes me late, I can alter my lunch time or leave time, or make it up later in the week. If I leave early for an appointment, I can do the same.

    12. CheeryO*

      State government here – very little flexibility. We can choose our own schedule within a fairly narrow range of hours (I think 8:00 – 6:00), but you have to stick with whatever you decide. No one is going to ding you for being a few minutes late in the morning, but it’s expected that you manage your time and take it out of your lunch or stay late to make up for it. The nice thing is that we get plenty of leave time, so you can easily charge a couple hours here and there for an appointment or whatever.

    13. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I’m generally expected to work certain hours majority of the time but if I need a schedule adjustment once in a while, as long as I discuss it with my manager it’s always approved.

    14. KR*

      Pretty flexible. I can work from home nights and weekends if needed and my manager trusts me to determine for myself if it’s necessary. I have a general window when I like to arrive to work and leave for work, that my manager knows of, because I have a hard time showing up at the same time every day and I’m liable to sleep in or have days where I’m more motivated. I’m not closely monitored but I’m also expected to be available throughout the day to support my department and if I’m not available when they need me it raises a flag.

      1. CaptainLaura*

        This is true for me as well, down to the part about not being skilled at showing up at the same time every day. I did a temp assignment for a different department (same job) a few years ago and the manager was super strict about start and end times. Everyone hated her and eventually there was a coup.

    15. Temperance*

      My hours are very flexible, and I’m not really monitored at all. Our admin team has scheduled hours and they clock in and out.

    16. Clawfoot*

      On paper, my work hours are 8:30am – 5pm (M-F office job). In reality, my hours are actually something like 7:45am – 4:15pm, which was cleared with my manager. We’re allowed to take time to attend to dr’s appointments and things, but are expected to make up the time, but in my seven months of being here, nobody has ever actually checked that I have (I have, because I’m like that, but nobody ever checked up on it).

    17. Adam V*

      My hours are fairly flexible. We’ve got “core hours” where everyone’s expected to be available if you’re working that day, but we’re pushing heavily to be have all of those meetings remote-friendly. As far as monitoring, I mainly just check in with my teams on a regular basis to make sure that they aren’t having any issues contacting anyone in particular.

    18. londonedit*

      Very flexible here. We have one day a week where all the meetings are, so it’s important for people to be in the office then, but otherwise we have core hours but it’s totally fine for people to come in early and leave early, or come in late and leave late, as long as the work’s getting done and they’re present for any meetings they need to be involved in.

    19. Need a Beach*

      We have core hours of 9-3, and flexible scheduling is at the discretion of managers as long as the timing includes the full core hours. Some departments are not allowed flexible schedules due to the nature of their work, but the ones who do it have to maintain consistency. So, working from 6-3 every day is fine, but you can’t show up at a different time every day of the week.

    20. Kill ItWithFIre*

      I currently work a 40 hour week, (or 37.5 hr since there are rules about breaks in my area, not that it matters). My hours are usually 6/7am to 2:30/3:30pm excepting when there are meetings or something happening that I need to be around for. The office’s hours are 8:30am to 5pm usually, but it depends on the person or department needs, I tend to keep different hours. I also will work from “home” to accommodate my life as needed (sometimes in another city because one of my parents is quite ill, but still working 8 hour days) . No one really monitors me, because no one in my group consistently works in the office I am based out of. But, the flip side is I am available a lot after I leave the office and and weekends. Basically as long as I am in the country I am at least moderately available. I refuse to answer questions or assist if I am out of the country however.

      I had to work up to this though, I have proven my work ethic over the last 7 years – working late or early, sorting out projects that are on deadlines, having my vacation interrupted with emergencies, sorting out a terrible working location to get the job done, etc. I’ve moved around for this job, am flexible for what is needed and am willing to sort it out when things aren’t going well or something goes wrong.

      So I guess my hours are very flexible and i have little oversight, but that’s not the norm.

    21. pcake*

      I work at home, and the person I work for doesn’t care about my working hours at all – only having a certain amount of work done each week.

    22. Karen from Finance*

      I’m mid range. Not an executive, not a new joiner. I have 1 hour of flexibility every day (can arrive/leave 1 hour earlier/later), and those aren’t really followed too much unless you start to show a pattern of not completing a full workday. Working from home is not a featured benefit, but it’s allowed within reason, it’s not expected to be required more than once every couple of months. For doctor’s appointments, or if you have to renew your license or go to your kid’s play (?) or whatever, they’re pretty damn flexible but they track the hours and again, it’s flagged it it’s too blatant.

    23. Susan Calvin*

      Extremely flexible. The amount is fairly closely monitored because we mostly bill it out, and also want to know the efficiency of internal stuff, but as long as you keep approximately daylight hours and block off middle-of-the-day appointments in outlook, you’re fine.

    24. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have core hours. So 9-3 I’m supposed to be here. So I can start any time as long as I’m here by 9 and leave any time after 3. I flex and work 7 hrs some days. 9 hrs others. Usually average the standard 8hrs since I’m a creature of habit.

      Summer I wakeup with the sun. I work 7-3:30 and this time of year, 8:30-5ish. Nobody cares and only notices if you’re approaching 9:30 and they need you but then we usually just need to text in and say we got trapped in traffic or whatever.

      It’s unmonitored unless there’s a “where’s Nancy?! It’s 10 and I’m getting worried” moment.

    25. The Rain In Spain*

      I’m a salaried, exempt worker in the US. I typically work from 7:45/8 am – 3:30/4 pm. On days I work from home it’s more like 7 am – 4 pm (but with breaks). As long as my work is getting done, no one is monitoring my hours. If I need to leave early/come in late I am always able to do so. I think core hours are something like 9-3 so my team tries to make sure someone’s available during those hours.

    26. Annie Moose*

      I work in web development for a contracting company that has a number of individual teams, most of which have very flexible schedules. My current team has a daily standup meeting at 8:30 that we’re expected to be present for, but you can arrive as long before that as you like. It would be frowned upon if you left earlier than, say, 3:30 PM on a regular basis. However, our hours aren’t closely monitored by our manager unless you’re repeatedly being late to standups, noticeably leaving early repeatedly on days where you didn’t come in early, etc.

      Other teams are even more flexible–my old team really didn’t care as long as you were in the office 10-3ish, so I usually did 9-5 there. In all cases, however, we’re expected to be recording 40 hours of work time a week. (we do have to record our time–as contractors, we need that for billing)

    27. Asenath*

      Officially or in practice??

      OK, overall, there is quite a fair bit of flexibility for most people, including flex time, with the usual exceptions – offices dealing with the public need to have someone there during normal office hours (which means working out lunch schedules so everyone doesn’t go to lunch at the same time), some departments have to provide at least a skeleton staff over longer hours – even 24h for security. But I work in a little section in which almost all of my work doesn’t require my presence at a particular time – work comes in by email 24/7, I do it, not 24/7, but it doesn’t have to be 9-5, either. In fact, when I started I was given the choice of two possible work hours – 9-5 or 7-4. I’m a morning person; I took the earlier ones. Then there are the occasional times I have to work before or after my regular hours – I get time and a half off in lieu of overtime. And the whole place closes a half hour earlier than your regular hours in the summer. One of the best things about my job is the flexibility in when I work and how I organize it.

    28. Chuck*

      I’m in higher-ed administration. General working hours are 8-4:30 with unpaid half-hour lunch, but it’s pretty typical to come in at 7:30 and leave at 4 too, and lunches can run longer (while not counting against time worked) if it’s a bigger faculty thing. For instance, we have birthday lunches every month that might last an hour/hour and a half. No one has to clock in or out, and it’s pretty typical to, say, work 9 hours one day so you can leave at 3:30 the next. But a lot of people work unpaid overtime (not egregious but like, half an hour to an hour every day) and there’s a lot of people that eat lunches at their desk while working. So, flexible, but you’re still sort of pressured to stay later to get your work done if necessary.

    29. Stephanie*

      My job/department is incredibly flexible, but this is to accommodate for all the travel we do (some people travel up to 80%). I think we’re an exception at my company.

    30. Ali G*

      We have core hours between 9-5. I can flex my time anyway I need to, as long as 70% of my time during a pay period is within the core hours. It’s great! No one monitors it, unless I am not doing my work, or not showing up when I need to (which I would never do).

    31. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My team: They have to meet the HR guidelines – that is, a weekday work day of less than 7 hours requires a PTO request (which could be either actual PTO use or shifting the extra hours to another day in the pay week, including a weekend day, as they choose), the max workday allowed is 10 hours per day, and it’s preferred that you’re clocked in for 3 hours or more at a time if you’re doing more than 30 minute breaks between chunks. How strictly those are monitored depends on the manager – mine doesn’t generally care if someone works a six hour day today and a ten hour day tomorrow without the formal PTO shift so long as all the numbers work out in the end. But as long as they’re not still in training, they can work their hours whenever they want. We have lots who do early first shift (6-9 start time and 2-5 end time), but also a few who do second and third type shifts, and a handful who split, depending on their family schedules. (My team is all fully remote, which probably also contributes to the flexibility.) We prefer that people who are still in training try to keep the majority of their hours to some semblance of first shift, because that’s when management generally works so that’s when we’re available for feedback, training, immediate questions etc, but they do still have some flexibility. My current trainee tends to work 5-1, and that’s working out alright.

      Me personally: My boss prefers that my co-lead and I generally keep at least an approximation of a consistent schedule. I usually start between 6-7am and work til 3:30pm or so, my co-lead is more of a 10-6 type, so between the two of us we’re around all day. We’re both salaried (the team is hourly), so we have flex on things like “I need to take a long lunch to go take care of an appointment” and whatnot, so long as we give her a heads up. I had a week this summer when my teenage niece was visiting – I didn’t want to give up an entire week of PTO when she was going to sleep til noon every day, so for that week I worked 4am to noon and had my afternoons to hang out with her. So pretty flexible, especially if I can plan ahead for it and keep my boss in the loop.

      But it would be more inconvenient for my boss for *me* to randomly wake up one morning and decide I’m going to do 7-11am and then 6-10pm today, than it would be for one of our team members. Not out of the question, and if I asked her to she’d generally be fine with it as long as my meeting schedule allowed, but I’d be checking in to make sure she knew and didn’t have a problem with it, while our team members wouldn’t necessarily need to do.

    32. Fortitude Jones*

      My hours are very flexible because I’m salaried-exempt, so I usually come in close to 9am, take a half hour to an hour lunch break, and then leave around 5 or 5:30. I’m also in business development responding to proposals, so I sometimes work weekends (like this one coming up) or on holidays (last year I worked on July 4th in the morning) to make submission deadlines. As long as my work gets done, no one really seems to care when I come in or leave.

    33. ZYXWV*

      That’s a great question, because I don’t really even know. I’ve been in my department longer than most, and longer than my boss. Before she came on board, we were treated just like exempt employees who don’t necessarily have all of their schedules time-bound should be: be here approximately within x timeframe, keep your calendar up to date, and let the boss know if you will be out or working a wildly different schedule than usual. This was a blessing to me because I have executive functioning deficits that make being anywhere “on time” without a good reason really, really hard. But I more than did what I needed to do to get my job done and almost always worked over 40 hours. Now everyone who was hired under this boss comes in and leaves at really set times, and I don’t know if that’s because that’s just how they function, that’s what the boss has said she expects of them, etc. Plus every quarter she asks what my “schedule” will be. (huge surprise here: this boss also clearly avoids giving any corrective feedback and having conversations she doesn’t want to have)

    34. LaDeeDa*

      Because my company is global and because my team is based in North and South America– our schedules are all over the place! We are expected to work 8ish hours a day- and that for a good chunk of that 8 hours you’re available during regular business hours in your time zone.
      I have a lot of flexibility- I work from home, no one on my team is located in my same state– heck none are even in my same time zone. I also have calls with global teams that happen at odd times, so I adjust my schedule for those. For example, I have a weekly call at 5:00 AM and I continue working as soon as it is over at 6:00. Which means by 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon I am fried from getting up at 4:00 AM. On the other end of the spectrum I have a monthly call that happens at 11:00 PM my time, so the following day I usually won’t start work until 10:00 Am.
      As far as monitoring- none. I have never checked to see when my direct reports are logging into and out the network (we almost all work from home). If I noticed someone wasn’t online for a significant portion of the day on a regular basis, or they weren’t getting their work done, or they were unresponsive, or weren’t responding to requests in a timely matter I would ask them about it, and then if needed I would check.
      Most of us put in more than 40 hours a week, so if any of them want to not start on a Monday until noon, or knock off early one afternoon- I trust them. I trust my team, and as long as they produce quality work they can have total freedom.

    35. Nessun*

      Very flexible. I’m a manager, salaried, and required to account my time weekly in a tracking system. As long as I meet the required number of hours, no one cares too much *when* I do the work. I usually arrive at roughly the same time, to the point where a coworker might text me if I’m not in within an hour of that – but that would only be to check I’m ok. I leave when my work is “done” for the day (there’s always more to do…), and if I need to leave for an appointment during the day, I can do so. I can also work from home…if I remember to bring my laptop home with me the day before. I email to let my coworker know I won’t be in, but I’m not required to ask permission to WFH.

    36. Llellayena*

      Architecture: we log all our hours since it can all be billed to our clients and 40 hrs a week is standard (and usually minimum too). But exact schedule is somewhat flexible. Since we track, we’re fairly strict about vacation and PTO time though.

    37. Snazzy Hat*

      Mostly strict, and closely monitored. I can easily request off a couple of hours for an appointment, including mid-day, although certain days of the year my group can’t take off at all. My start time is always 8:30, and my end time is always 5:00. I can’t show up at 8:00 and expect to leave at 4:30 unless prior arrangements have been made for a one-off scenario. Similarly, if I’m late, I can’t stay late unless I speak to my manager and they approve my staying late.

    38. Gumby*

      Very. Not at all.

      We have to record *how many* hours we worked per day (because government contracts) but not *which* hours they were. In this month my latest start time was ~11:30 and earliest was ~7:45. There was also a 13-hour day in there because of a deadline.

    39. KP*

      My company has been flexible — we’re salaried — but that is changing in this sense: They want us in on time at set regular hours. (If we have finished a project/our work we can just take off for the day or rest of the week.) Management for decades was not a stickler on start times — but then, people have gotten ridiculous in recent years, frankly.

  8. BeanCat*

    I had my first performance review for this job and I think it went well! My big feedback was to communicate more with my placement company and if that’s the worst I get? I’m happy. High marks for initiative so I was pleased :) almost a year in and I still love my job. I don’t regret leaving my last field at all!

  9. unreasonable curiosity*

    How do you gently tell a friend they have unrealistic work expectations?

    I have a friend, Sue who I have known for 15+ years. We are both in our early 30s. We work in totally different fields, jobs and industries that will in no way, shape or form interact (ie I don’t know many specifics about her job). Sue is a hard worker but with a lot on her plate to balance between personal and professional life. Her children are school aged but at an age where they can’t be left alone after school. Sue was able to negotiate to work around her family’s schedule with the understanding she have emergency childcare backup should something come up that she needed to stay late. The company has a great work/ life balance, so “staying late” might be 1-3 hours in total once or twice a month for her position. Sue does some type of marketing coordinating.

    Sue called me yesterday to vent that she had to stay late and had to pay a fortune in last minute child care. While the financial aspect stung it did not hurt Sue’s personal financial budget. Apparently an assistant in a related but not related niche needed help with a basic task of alphabetizing some paperwork. The task sounds simple and may have been able to be put off to another day in most cases. However some big meetings were happening the next day where these documents would need to be available quickly so the assistant was trying to prepare for all scenarios. Sue had been voluntold to help out. Sue and the assistant don’t work together. Their jobs usually do not interact. However Sue and the assistant’s share a grand-boss. Sue and the assistant know each other only through the trickle down lines of hierarchy of a large corporation.

    Sue was furious that she had to stay late to “do someone else’s responsibility”. I tried to point out that this was a one-time thing and given how much flexibility the company gives her; it’s not that big of a deal. Everyone is on the same team and doing such a task will go far reputation wise in the company in the long run. She would not listen to reason. I respect her opinion. Again I do not know her industry; maybe I’m the one in the wrong. I just want to agree to disagree but she keeps egging me on to agree with her. I guess I’m just venting because I want to acknowledge that she had a rough day, but let’s move onto another topic of conversation.

    1. Former Expat*

      I also have a friend who works in a completely different industry to me whose expectations about work seem overly rigid to me… If she wants you to just agree with her is it so hard to just do that and let it go? Think of it as a white lie for the sake of friendship.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Since you don’t know her industry, I would take her at her word. Ultimately, you aren’t going to solve her workplace problems, so she’s really just looking to you as someone she can vent to who will be understanding about it.

      I want to acknowledge that she had a rough day, but let’s move onto another topic of conversation.

      I think that’s totally reasonable. And I think it’s okay to agree with her based on what you know, with the caveat that you are not in her industry, so you’ll take her word for it.

      1. Mazzy*

        I like this approach. I was venting about a work thing just last night to a friend and her advice was not spot on at all. Her advice was along the lines of lowering my expectations to close to zero and be happy to have a job, but the reason I was upset in the first place was because most of the problems I was dealing with are completely avoidable with simple steps and there are coworkers who are supposed to be preventing them and when they don’t, they aren’t held accountable. So acting like I should just appreciate everything anyway doesn’t always help. You can take that kind of attitude too far and use it as an excuse to never fix any problems.

    3. Four lights*

      I’d let it go; I think she’s just venting. Yes, everyone’s got to stay late and pitch in sometimes. But I’d be pretty peeved if I had to do it to help someone with alphabetizing.

    4. Me*

      You don’t if you’d like to keep your friendship. This ranks right up there with telling a friend their boyfriend is horrible.

      Some people like to vent. If you want to listen and be supportive do so, but it’s not your job as a friend to manage her expectations.

    5. Marthooh*

      I understand your desire to tell Sue it doesn’t seem like that big a deal, but… any reasonable person will come to that conclusion eventually without having to be told. Let her vent! She’ll run out of steam and figure out for herself that it’s not worth the energy she’s expending on it.

    6. unreasonable curiosity*

      thanks to those who replied. Yes for the sake of friendship i am letting it go. Yes after rereading I am nitpicking at somethign that doesn’t concern me. I think Sue just wants to vent so I haven’t really given any specific responses. I’ve just agreed with her statements…. Gosh that’s horrible to have to pay so much in child care; wow how crazy to be voluntold to help out last minute… things like that. I’ve kept my conflicting opinions to myself. I guess I was just shocked as the industry I work in overtime is expected so I had a hard time relating to her venting about 90 minutes of overtime. She is a good friend and chose her field and this particular company due to work/ life balance. I guess it’s just a case of looking at something from another angle.

      1. Me*

        One more thing though – if it becomes draining on you to be her sounding board that’s totally ok. You can bow out.

        A friend complaining about “single parenting” while husband was away for the weekend and I being an for reals single parent…that was a nope for me. She was legitimately stressed and had every right to be, but I wasn’t the ear for the job. Sometimes you can’t be the supportive audience because of your own bias and world view. That’s ok. Better to say you’r not the best person, then to let frustration build and bubble over.

        1. unreasonable curiosity*

          Hi Me. Thanks for your thoughts. About the only thing we have in common job wise is we both work in an office environment. Sue has a great support team for her children including her husband, siblings and parents but of everyone, Sue is the one with the most flexible schedule hence childcare usually falls to her first. I don’t mind being a sounding board, that’s what friends are for. I think I was just in such shock that this is what she was venting about where it’s the norm for the industry I work in. Where I work this would not have even been an issue and no one would of thought of it as making a sacrifice. To me, and me only, it just sounds like extra time is needed to do a project, we’re all part of the team, let’s do it so we can get out of here. For Sue, her company has jobs very specifically defined so I am now learning, that this was out of the norm for her to be voluntold. Like I said in my original post I did try to point out it wasn’t a big deal, but since then I’ve just tried to be a friend. As many have pointed out the friendship is more important and honestly I was trying to comment on an industry I have no idea about.

      2. Dragoning*

        I was once venting to a friend about getting an email from upper management that my department had to “Stay late–possibly really late.” because I knew that meant until the am.

        My friend was sympathetic, but then when I was discussing OT and mentioned something that would kick in after 12:30, he paused and went “wait, am?”

        Turns out to him, he though “really late” was 8-9. To me, in my industry, at this company, that’s “regular late.”

        Anything less than two hours late is hardly worth remarking on.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        There may also be some unconscious resentment of being ‘voluntold’ for work that has been traditionally gendered…

        1. unreasonable curiosity*

          I could see that. From what I gather Sue was in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was voluntold. She was coming back from getting a cup of coffee and she saw assistant and grandboss in the hallway having a priorities conversation for the meeting. I think grandboss just saw someone he knew and Sue was lucky enough to get voluntold.

          1. Ann O.*

            FWIW, I would also be infuriated if I were in Sue’s shoes. Unless Sue is a similar level of admin, it is pretty infuriating to be ordered to help with something so out of one’s normal job responsibilities at the last minute like that, especially if it results in scrambling for child care. That’s just a really different situation than knowing in advance that there’s a high-impact project that may require all hand’s on deck. Even if Sue were a similar level, it would still be hard, but at least there would be a rhyme and reason for why she was told to help.

            Also, I don’t know Sue’s specifics, but in my previous jobs, I would not be considered on the same team as people I’m only connected to at the grandboss level. My team is my manager and teammates.

            1. only acting normal*

              Also people working unusual schedules to juggle childcare or similar have to be extremely organised and disciplined with managing their workload. Being pulled into a crisis of someone else’s making would be particularly galling.

        2. Half-Caf Latte*

          Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that grandboss doesn’t know/remember the specifics of Sue’s schedule arrangements/childcare needs, and may have assumed that this would have been fine within the regular workday.

          We’ve seen it a lot here, where employee is really upset that manager reneged on X, when really, manager had just forgotten that they’d agreed to X and if they were reminded would have upheld their promise.

    7. Jersey's mom*

      My husband and I have an agreement. When one of us come home and goes on a blitzkrieg bitch about something at work, the other one gets to ask “are you looking for help for a solution, or venting and want emotional support”?

      That has saved us both many times from completely blowing up because we know what kind of support the other person needs.

    8. MoopySwarpet*

      It does seem like she was pulled into something that she had no real expectation to be doing and that is frustrating. I also get your annoyance about how flexible she has things and the ONE TIME that gets disrupted, she’s up in arms.

      We had an ex employee get all bent out of shape and I was like . . . I know you always take lunch from 11-1 (basically giving NO coverage for other lunches), but we have an all hands meeting at 11:30 tomorrow and you need to be there. It went from rage “You know I need that time!” to the silent treatment for 3 weeks. The worst part was that he was never authorized to take 2 hours, lunches just started getting longer and longer. Just like start time got later and going home time got earlier and WFH every other Friday turned into every Friday until it was really a part time job. (The work was still mostly getting done since a chunk of it really was work from home, but still . . . )

      All that to say . . . I hear you! Kids these days. Grumble, grumble. But, really, she’s just venting and when she cools down will likely know (and maybe even admit) how good she actually has it there.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I have found it helpful when I am faced with a strong desire to argue the opposing opinion to ask myself, “what do I hope to accomplish here?”

      Well, let’s say you decided to argue your point because you are afraid she will lose her job. I could see me thinking along these lines. The problem here is that I would be assuming this is THE job for her. Maybe it’s not THE job for her. Maybe she needs to move on to something else and this story is the tip of that iceberg. I just don’t realize that.

      And this is a really odd tip but I have seen it work and I have had people use it on me and it worked. Sometimes just saying “AW, man, that sucks” gets you farther than all the logic in the world. For whatever reason that acknowledgement causes a big release in frustration. Frustration exits and logic steps in where there used to be frustration. Then you start hearing things like, “Well, maybe I should have said X or done Y to help myself with this situation.” And that statement is true also. So you can say,”Hey, sounds like you have a plan for next time.”

      One last helpful tool. When we try to use logic and the person just is not having it, the person may actually be thinking about something else even more pressing but just does not want to say what that is. I think I have told this story before. I had a boss light into me over a benign situation. The worst part of this story is this boss was (and still is) one of my favorite bosses. You can guess how this landed. I found out that he was not upset over Current Situation. He had problem in the past that was a BFD. I told him I was very sorry that happened to him. Then I reminded him that everyone is NOT like the people in his story. I suggested that he work on A, B and C. In return I would never mention anything about this Current Situation again. He agreed. This is a good example of a time where I really needed to be able to see through someone’s upset and I was able to see there was something else running in the background. (This does not happen often enough!) He later provided me with a TERRIFIC reference.

    10. Actual Oppo Researcher*

      My best friend and I have completely different jobs – industries, positions, years on the job, what have you. After some annoying “agreeing to disagree but you’re still wrong” type fighting, we came up with a rule. After hearing each other out, we ask “do you need to vent or do you need advice?” and we tailor our responses appropriately.

      I’m much more inclined to have FEELINGS about things — she’s very logical. I try to frame my advice, if/when I give it, in the form of questions for her to work out or help her solve. It works for us and may for you…

  10. Bernice*

    Etiquette question: I recently started at a new office and, along with being introduced to people around the office, was informed that a colleague will soon be returning from bereavement leave. Can you guys advise how I should behave in this situation? Is it something I acknowledged at all? It feels odd knowing something so personal about someone when they’ve never met me before.

    2. Clorinda*

      “Hi, I’m Bernice, I started here while you were away,” and let the other person guide the conversation from that point.

    3. Celaena Sardothien*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t bring it up because it’s going to look like your coworkers have been gossiping about her situation to you. Just introduce yourself as you normally would and go from there.

    4. librarian-adjacent*

      I think if you’re brought around to meet them, you can feel safe with a “Its great to finally meet you.” Acknowledge that the meeting is delayed without saying “well gosh i hope you had fun at that funeral!!”. They’re probably going to be about as awkward as you are, and will also likely want to get back into “work mode” and not linger on their absence.

    5. Lupin Lady*

      I wouldn’t even mention ‘while you were away’. Just introduce yourself and don’t mention anything – take your cues from your colleagues of course but remember that you don’t have the same personal relationship with this person, so not the same standing to ask “how are you holding up” etc.

      1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        You could also frame your introduction with “I don’t believe we’ve met yet” because that’s true regardless of where they were the past days. They could have even been in the office and just really busy, if your office is big enough where that could be a possibility.

    6. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      Someone will probably introduce you, so just act like you did with everyone else on your first day.

    7. Adam V*

      I’m trying to think of a way to work in “I’m sorry for your loss” into the initial conversation, but it’s not the easiest thing. If you think it’s necessary to acknowledge it, that’s probably all you’d need to say and then move back to work-related conversation.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I don’t think there is a rule that condolences HAVE to be in the first conversation, either. It’s good to have an awareness of the loss but not mandatory to say something. Sometimes it’s just useful information, for example if the person seems rattled, you give them a moment to collect their thoughts because you know the background story. Some grieving people will notice the quiet gesture and silently be grateful to you.

        Unless it comes up naturally, I would not worry too much about it. It could be that next week or next month the loss is mentioned, you can offer condolences then.

    8. WellRed*

      We had someone new start while I was on bereavement leave. I had no expectation this person would offer condolences of any sort. The longtime coworker who didn’t acknowledge even in a one line email on the other hand, well, that’s not a good impression I still have of her three years later.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I had a few people start while I was away last year for my father’s death.
        The guy who had started a few days before I left did offer condolences and we talked for a bit about it. It was appreciated.
        There were a few people that I had known for a while but didn’t say condolences or anything–to me that stuck out and it stung. After a while, I just chalked it up to them being the way they are.

    9. Ladylike*

      Don’t acknowledge it and follow the colleague’s lead. If he/she mentions the death, express sympathy briefly and compassionately, and move on. If you don’t know the person, it’s going to seem weird for you to go out of your way to offer condolences.

    10. Mandy Fard*

      I would just leave the ball in her court, once she returns. If she wants to share it with me first, that will make things a lot easier. If not, I will still assess the situation. If I feel it’s ok, I will express my sympathy to her in a highly respectful way, without getting emotional about it.

  11. Rosie The Rager*

    How to be a workplace anthropologist?

    Alison has advised some letter writers to treat unusual working environments as opportunities to observe behavior and become anthropologists, of sorts. I am attempting to implement this as I move forward working for a tiny PR firm with an eccentric and distracted owner.

    To date, I have found myself biting my tongue as she claims “transgender isn’t real and is just a trend” and “I think #MeToo is over, don’t you.” She has also complained about not finding qualified candidate for an admin position, but she then talks about interviewing bartenders, warehouse workers, and McDonald’s drive-thru staff. I’ve managed to nod my head and/or claim ignorance on the matter, or just change the subject.

    If any AAM commenters have experience with such a practice and have practical suggestions for keeping the oddities in perspective and becoming a keen watcher, please let me know. I would appreciate the assistance.

    1. Celaena Sardothien*

      This may not help you from the anthropology standpoint, but I wonder if you could go for polite disagreement/statements of the obvious and see if that improves her behavior. Some examples:

      Her: “Transgender isn’t real, it’s just a trend.”
      You: “Oh, I don’t know. Did you know that science now suggests that a person’s brain matches their desired gender instead of their biological gender? You can’t really fake that.” (You can leave this one alone if you want since it’s bound to be controversial)

      Her: “I think MeToo is over, don’t you?”
      You: “I don’t know, I’m sure there are still plenty of women out there that need to be heard.”

      Her: “I can’t find anyone qualified for this position!”
      You: “I wonder if we should post a job opening and only interview people who have some of the qualities we’re looking for?”

      That last one is the ultimate Captain Obvious, but it doesn’t sound like your boss is doing that. Say all of these with a polite, slightly cheerful tone and you’ll catch her off guard. This might be an interesting experiment after all. Do report back.

      2. Jasnah*

        I would worry that this would engage her on the topic, when what you want is to shut her down. “That’s one way of looking at it.” “I don’t agree, so let’s not discuss it.”

    2. scooby snack*

      Hm, in this case I think you could actually speak up and contribute to company “culture” — especially since the things she says border on illegal discrimination. I think the advice to be an anthropologist usually refers to situations that are annoying but harmless, not actively damaging.

      1. Susie Q*

        If this is in the US, there are no federal laws about discrimination against LGBT and not every state has laws either.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          In 2012, the EEOC said that Title VII covers LGBTQx employment discrimination under the definition of ‘gender’. Supremes haven’t yet given a consistent take. So, depending on context (eg, ‘I wouldn’t hire someone who is transgender because it isn’t real’ vs ‘that TV show with a character who is transgender yada yada’), they could be getting close to legal issues.

          And of course, several states have additional protections. Insufficient, but growing.

          I would find it very hard to anthropologize such statements. I think Alison’s recommendation to do so is more about harmless quirks, like purple hair or a fuzzy hat.

    3. INeedANap*

      I’m a big fan of a neutral-sounding, “Oh, I don’t agree.” followed by a subject change to give a conversational out. Sometimes people will get the hint and let me change the subject; other times people will ask why. If I think a civil conversation is possible with said person, I’ll explain a little. If I don’t think it’s possible, I’ll just smile and say something like, “Well, it’s not a great debate to get into at work. I could always email you some stuff to read over out of work if you were interested.” No one has ever taken me up on that offer lol.

      There are probably better ways to handle it, but I feel a moral/ethical need to establish disagreement on things like “transgender isn’t real” or comments of that type, even at work.

      1. Emily*

        I like this approach (or something similar to the scripts Celaena Sardothien gave above). Not actually getting deep into the debate (which is probably neither fun nor work-appropriate), but politely noting your own disagreement so that they don’t assume you hold the same views as you.

      2. As Close As Breakfast*

        I’m also a big fan of using “That’s an interesting perspective.” It’s basically neutral, but is really good when you don’t want to agree but don’t want to disagree either. My boss has a lot of strong opinions that they are quite vocal about that I have the exact opposite opinion. My boss will also turn it into ‘a thing’ if I even politely disagree and a lot of the time I just don’t want to be bothered by getting into it with them. So, I have found that “That’s an interesting perspective” works great because many people will sort of ‘hear’ it as agreement or approval or that at the very least, you are considering what they have said. Of course, what I really mean is “That’s an interesting perspective that isn’t at all based in any sort of reality that I have ever encountered… you nincompoop.”

    4. Sammie*

      I think there’s a line between staying out of drama and staying quiet in the face of bigotry. This line may look a little different for different people, depending on their circumstances, and if it’s the owner of a small firm it’s understandable that you may feel you are risking your job by saying anything when she makes transphobic comments among other things. I guess I just wanted to offer the perspective that this is certainly not okay behaviour on the part of your boss. It goes beyond eccentric. You know her best – you may feel there’s a polite and not so risky way to correct her, to educate her. But, if not, I hope that you find a better working environment because this is really bad.

      Please also be aware that by not disagreeing with her, people like that have a tendency to assume that you agree – because in their own minds they are most certainly right and so you MUST think this way too. I say this only because years ago I got quite the nasty shock when someone said something horrible in my presence and they were very surprised when I didn’t feel the same way as them – because I’d never explicitly said so before. Sometimes I really really want to stay quiet but that memory makes me speak up whenever I possibly can.

    5. LKW*

      I think the only thing you can do is treat her as if she’s got an actual moral center:
      Her: I think metoo is over
      You: Well you’re the kind of boss that doesn’t allow people to get away with harming a co-worker. That’s just who you are. If someone on your staff were threatened or otherwise harmed by another staff member, you’d deal with it directly because you’re the kind of owner who doesn’t allow people to mistreat others.

      Her: I think trans is a trend
      You: Well, the human brain is a weird and wonderful place. Luckily you’re a kind and understanding person so you’d accept someone who felt misgendered and would not allow any other staff or clients to behave poorly.

      Her: I can’t find a qualified person
      You: Well you’ve been looking to help someone reach the next level, you need to figure out if you want someone who you want to coach and train or if you want someone to hit the ground running. If it’s the latter, you may want to work with some staffing agencies.

      Just approach it as “but of course you’re a great person so you would never treat people poorly” but this approach completely compromises any anthropological standards.

      1. Lissa*

        I agree with this I think. It shouldn’t be about trying to convince her of her wrongness, that’s unlikely to work, but making it about behaviour is IMO more important, if you want to say anything. Make it about things that are hard to argue – if you start bringing in scientific studies it just invites her to find opposing ones, but talking just about treating people well is much harder to say “no actually I like treating people crappy!”

    6. Anthrop*

      I am an actual anthropologist. We do participant observation, which means that we are engaged in the activities and conversations of the people we are working with. We don’t lurk and dispassionately keep notes on others as though we exist separate from them. That is something else entirely. We are often engaged in research specifically to address issues in the community, if they would like us to.

      In the case you describe, to remain neutral would not really be acceptable, anyway. For instance, I have several non-binary/queer/tran gender colleagues and students. It would be a serious dereliction of duty for me to not respond if someone said something derogatory and frankly harmful about those people, even if they are not around. We can ask people questions about why they think the things they do, and try to draw them out and see if there is a discussion to be had. We also can bluntly state that we disagree with that and change the subject. These comments don’t exist in a world apart from the violence transgender people suffer, and so it’s important to push back when possible.

    7. Marthooh*

      Alison’s advice about pretending to be an anthropologist, as I remember it, is a way to distance yourself from a toxic work environment, not to treat it as an opportunity. And she usually follows up by saying “…until you have another job lined up.”

    8. The Other One*

      If you already know, that you can’t / won’t engage your Boss in any way, and you only want to find a way not to take things personally, it helps me to use an even more removed metaphor:
      I imagine that I’m a super-advanced alien scientist, who studies humans the way humans study ants. No human would get angry about an ant that harbors weird opinions or does odd things (or insults the scientist). So as an alien I would tell myself: Hm, apparently some of these humans hold opinions that are clearly at odds with reality and do things that are contraproductive to their goals; how interesting. And then I could continue to study how this particular “ant” interacts with their environment and with other “ants”.
      Usually I use this technique in situations where I feel judged or attacked personally (when I remember doing so in the heat of the moment). It helps me to mentally step back and remind myself that one person’s uninformed opinion of me is not really relevant in the grand scheme of things. Your mileage may vary on wether that works for your situation.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        The Other One, I really like this advice.

        Given that I need to keep this job for a bit and have no co-workers to serve as buffers between the boss and me, the observant alien angle is what I plan to use, at least in the short term.

        I also completely agree with your assessment that “one person’s uninformed opinion of me is not really relevant in the grand scheme of things.” I find it’s a much healthier way to view the world, and I thank you for including it in your comment.

        Thanks again, The Other One!

  12. BRR*

    What tips do people have for retraining yourself on professionalism after a toxic job? (There’s a previous AAM article on professionalism that I think does an excellent job on defining professionalism).

    For the past couple of years I’ve been trapped in an awful job. The stress, dysfunction, and long commute have lowered my level of professionalism. Specifically I feel like my impulse control for blurting things out and babbling on and on is awful but overall I think that I’ve adapted to this office culture more than I would have liked. I also have ADHD which doesn’t help things (it is being managed by a doctor).

    I have an interview next week and know that overall I will need to up my level of professionalism in any future job to succeed but am worried specifically that I’m out of practice for this interivew. What has helped you or what suggestions to have you? Thanks in advance!

    1. Lupin Lady*

      I’m in the same boat. I find myself noting “ok, that would not fly anywhere else” after I say or do something less than professional, and I feel like that’s a good first step.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Therapy, for starters. Getting very specific with it.

      But some more immediate fixes… for me, “professional” has a lot to do with the way I dress and carry myself. It’s like putting on a costume. So if I wanted to up my professionalism, I would start with wearing more business-y clothes, better accessories, things like that. A very simple fix.

      In other ways, I try to be organized, or at least appear to be organized. Apparently, I am still very much a theater kid and the performance is crucial. But when I treat it that way, like I’m playing a role and the role is “ALB Business Lady,” it focuses my attention and energy on making that persona work. If you’re anything like that, maybe give it a try?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The fact you know you need to retrain yourself is critical!

      I go from trucker-talk to “How may I assist you?” on a dime. Literally years ago I was sitting at my desk cursing about God knows what to a trucker signing his paperwork to perfect professional to take a call from a customer. The driver looked at me after I hung up and said “how do you do that? It’s like a switch flipped!” and we giggled together.

      Wear your best power suit and be mindful of your interactions. Be a little overly professional at first and warm up to the environment.

      I didn’t need therapy or medical intervention. I always knew I wasn’t acting professional and knew my audience.

      Granted I’m great at blending in. I’ll roll on the floor with puppies and kids, then go negotiate pricing with a rigid vendor rep and then go tell a delivery driver to back the Ef outta my gate until I buzz them in.

    4. clunker*

      You might find it helpful to look into finding a coach who works with ADHD adults on keeping your life organized, time-wise, space-wise, and information-wise. (Caveat: probably don’t do any non-adhd specialist coach for this. IME all non-ADHD specific advice for this type of stuff tends to be useless at best, actively harmful at worst.)

      That can be (sadly) really expensive but I’ve also heard of group coaching for this which is a little like a much more guided support group atmosphere, I think. The group coaching tends to be much more affordable.

      Outside of that, practicing thought-reactions sometimes can help. Having a dispassionate thought like “that would not be a great thing to say in a different job” after you blurt something out. The key is to try to keep it dispassionate- if you start feeling hurt and feeling bad for the mistakes, I think that’s likely to be more counter-productive than helpful. If you can’t remain dispassionate on these sort of things, I do highly recommend working with a therapist to try to develop that sort of emotional regulation skill.

      I also find that if I’m getting enough sleep, eating regularly, (obvs taking my meds regularly too), and managing to remain calm and less anxious, my adhd symptoms are much less bad. I also find that skipping meals hurts a lot more than eating “junk” food or whatever– regularity of eating seems to be the most important thing on that. So my ability to remain organized and not blurt stuff out and not bounce my leg- those are all better when I’m eating and sleeping regularly.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      OH I totally get this. I didn’t get a “dream job” that I was recommended for from a former colleague because I was in such a toxic environment, and on my way to the interview I got a call that sent me spiraling. When I got into the interview I wasn’t in the right space, I was pissed off, I was worried, I was consumed…. the feedback my former colleague got was that I was “negative” I was horrified, that has never been feedback given ever to me! I still kick myself that I messed up that interview!
      My best advice is you schedule the interview first thing on a Monday when you have had the weekend to disconnect, and that you give yourself some time and space to realize their “sh!t” is not yours. Go into the interview without comparing them to the current. Don’t let the current messed up, toxic environment define you.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Read Alison’s interviewing advice so her voice will be the freshest in your mind, not the voices of your cohorts.
      Read some comment sections on interviewing, notice how hard people try to present well and the things they think of.
      Take some common interview questions and practice your answers out loud. Get reacquainted with your professional voice again.

  13. Friday*

    I learnt this week that there are people who seriously hate the phrase “happy Friday”…

    …is this a common thing? What is the reason for this?

    1. rocklobsterbot*

      Some people hate everything, some don’t like the idea that work weeks are wasted time to be endured, and some people have stressful weekends. I don’t think it’s common, it seems pretty innocuous as small talk goes, but I can see how it might be grating to some.

    2. Snark*

      I don’t think “seriously hating” it is common or worth planning around, but I can see how it could come off a little superficial – it’s kind of like the “someone’s got a case of the mondays!” lady from Office Space, or “well, at least it’s Hump Day, amirite” or something like that. It’s kind of an office cliche, and while it doesn’t bother me at all, there’s probably more genuine things to say? Maybe?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I don’t care about “Happy [weekday]” on any day of the week, but man, hearing about “Hump Day” (especially at work) just sets my teeth on edge. :P

    3. TooTiredToThink*

      I’m not a big fan of it (or being happy that its “almost the weekend” at work because I feel like it encourages dis-satisfaction with your here and now. I don’t want to live for the weekend. I want to live for *today*. But I don’t hate it; I’m just not proactive about saying it unless its been a super stressful week.

    4. ToodieCat*

      I “happy weekday” people all week long: sarcastically on Mondays, genuinely on Fridays. Yikes.

      1. Blue*

        Uh, same. I mostly use it for filler to soften my language, like: “Dear Person, Happy Friday! I wanted to check in on…”

        1. WellRed*

          I wouldn’t mind so much in an email, but if you say it to me every.single.day it’s gonna drive me nuts. Or even just every week.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I think the repetition is a huge part of the problem. OP, if you said Happy Friday once this month you are set for the next couple months at least. But I would say this about an repeated phrase.

      2. Autumnheart*

        I don’t think it’s any more inherently irritating than “Good morning/afternoon” or “Nice weather we’re having!” or “How’s it going?”

        On the one hand, I get it. I have a friend who says “How are you?” every. single. time. as his conversation opener, and the monotony of it is just irritating. Vary it up a little! But on the other hand, I’m also annoyed by people who think that they shouldn’t be required to have social skills. Nobody ever died because they had to make literally 3 seconds of small talk.

        1. Chip*

          “I’m also annoyed by people who think that they shouldn’t be required to have social skills. Nobody ever died because they had to make literally 3 seconds of small talk.”

          It may be just three seconds of small talk to you, but it’s three seconds of TORTURE to me.

          I have Asperger’s Syndrome, and I would LOVE to have “normal” social skills, but it’s not possible. I try to do my best but it’s not easy.

    5. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Earlier today I had a visceral reaction to someone on a call using a very common phrase, and just reading “happy Friday” I had another one. It’s not the phrase, it’s that it reminds me of someone who uses it. It’s Bitch Eating Crackers territory for me, possibly for others as well. There’s nothing wrong with the phrase or using it, it just reminds me of That One Guy.

      1. CheeryO*

        Yep, my That Guy is a woman who is on her phone for literally 90 percent of the work day, and she is constantly pulling the “Ugh, Monday”/”Yay, hump day!”/”HOORAY, FRIDAY!” stuff. Like, I’m sorry that you… had to wake up today? It’s totally BEC territory.

      2. Artemesia*

        There is just something unpleasant about the attitude I am enduring big parts of my life and can hardly wait till they are over. Happy Friday has the undertone of ‘I hate work, whine’ which is both unpleasant and marks the whiner as a time server. Or it can just be small talk.

      3. Snazzy Hat*

        I work near someone who on a near-daily basis says something like, “is it time to go home yet?” within the first half-hour. I absolutely love my job, and I’m thrilled to be working for such a kickass company, so it genuinely pisses me off when they say it. It also makes me wonder (and consider asking out loud) why they even came to work that day.

        If I had more confidence, I’d ask them point blank if they truly felt the job was right for them.

    6. Lost*

      I think the only time “Happy Friday” ever irritated me was when someone’s said it to me when I was very stressed out about work or bad things were going on at work and I was expected to respond happily when I was not happy at all. (It wasn’t bad if someone just shouted it to the room in general as they were passing our cubicles, but if they came to my cubicle for something and started their request with a cheerful “Happy Friday!” then I’m more obligated to respond to it in some way.)

    7. Need a Beach*

      A colleague once told me that she hates that saying because people who hold the philosophy of being eager for the weekend are wishing the majority of their lives away. (By the math that Mon-Fri is a much larger part of the week than is Sat-Sun.) She said it’s “sad” to do that.

      Shrug. It’s all relative, IMO.

    8. Person from the Resume*

      It’s just a weirdly awkward phrase to me. Is “Happy Xday” a new thing? I don’t recall it being a common phrase until recently.

    9. Cakezilla*

      I hated it when I worked 6 days a week and Saturdays were the the most work-intense days I had. Friday was not fun for me when I knew I had to get up extra early and work extra hard the next day.

      It doesn’t bother me any more because I have traditional office hours and look forward to my weekends! But I do still try to be somewhat mindful of not immediately defaulting to “happy Friday” or “at least it’s the weekend soon” when I’m talking to people who don’t work traditional M-F hours, because I remember how it bothered me.

      1. Nessun*

        Right there with you! I used to work in retail and my ONE day off was Tuesday – anyone who asked if I was glad it was the weekend got the dirtiest look I could muster (and I’ve got Resting B Face). Now that I’m 8-4 M-F, I can understand the sentiment, but in deference to my friends who still work weekends, I would never say Happy Friday to anyone whose schedule/weekend plans I wasn’t 100% on, because it could be wildly inaccurate and triggering for them.

      2. Chip*

        I’m going back to 1981 with this, but I used to work Saturdays as a typist. I’d listen to talk radio while I worked, and I remember the station would play a jingle that went something to the effect of, “The weekend’s here, hip hip hooray! No work now, it’s time to play!”

        Not for me, it wasn’t.

    10. No Tribble At All*

      I hated it when I worked shift and Friday was a Monday for me. Yes, sure, enjoy your weekend, office dwellers, I’ll be here all Saturday and Sunday…

      1. dawbs*

        Yup. I heard it today.
        I suppose it’s appropriate bbecause today is my day off, but in spite of my professional level, I work all weekend.
        It’s very “white collar 9-5 normative”

    12. TGIF*

      I say this all the time in my office and was recently getting push-back from people in a particular department that is under-staffed and over-worked. This I understand because they’ve had to work weekends the past couple months and some haven’t had a full weekend off in a long time, so I’ve been trying to cut down on saying it to them. But an overall hatred of the phrase, for those who actually have Monday to Friday jobs, seems odd to me.

    13. Forkeater*

      My boss says this every friggin Friday and I can’t stand it. I think because it’s so predictable. Can’t he think of anything else to say to me? I might be in BEC mode with him though.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        So much is in repetition…. I liked the grandboss saying ‘have a sparking day” the first 500 times I heard it…

        1. Chip*

          It can be tough sometimes. I know I had a hard time refraining from going “see you next year” or variants thereof during the week before New Year’s, but I realized that I, the one who wanted to say it, wasn’t finding it funny anymore.

          The one exception was a couple of weeks ago, when I saw my eye doctor. He said I should schedule my next appointment for sometime next year. When I left, I said “see you next decade.” He didn’t get it until I pointed out that next year will be 2020. (Unfortunately, I didn’t think of it at the time – I just became aware of it now, as I’m writing this – but I missed out on a great opportunity to quip that next year should be “his” year – 2020, as in 20/20 vision. Maybe when I see him next year– er, I mean, next decade…)

    14. *shrug**

      I don’t have an opinion one way or the other but I picked it up from Old Boss who wanted me to “sound softer” in emails. I used it because she did too.

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My “OMG STAWP IT” phrase isn’t Happy Friday, it’s “is it Friday yet?!”

      As someone mentioned above I too don’t like the idea of living for the weekends, I live for today. I also like my job and work in general, so it chaffs.

      I’m also a daughter of a cancer survivor. I spent every day for a year freaking out it was the last one. I don’t ever wish time away any more, I wish situations away if I’m having a bad day, sure I want to go home and wrestle with my cat instead of being yelled at by a mad client or whatever.

      It’s not something you need to be ultra aware of but in general mix it up and you’ll be all good. If you’re excited today is Friday because tonight is your favorite tv show or date night or you’re adopting goldfish after work, I dig it. But if every frigging Friday it’s “TGIF, immirite? Another week donezo!” I’ll bristle.

    16. Nervous Accountant*

      I feel like it’s on the same level as those who hate “good mornings/how are yous” etc.

      The world is a colorful place.

    17. Teapot librarian*

      I know someone who very cheerily says “happy Monday” and “happy Tuesday” and it drives me bonkers. “Happy Friday,” on the other hand, I understand perfectly!

    18. esqueer*

      I mean when I worked retail and Fridays/Weekends didn’t mean a break for me I did find that a little insensitive to hear from obvious 9-5 weekday workers.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        Customers saying, “Happy Friday!” to me while I was clearly working on the sales floor, late at night on a Friday, always felt so… weird to me. My guy, I get off work in four hours, and then I’m back here tomorrow morning to open. My Fridays are not particularly happy.
        My next job was a 9-5 M-F office job, so it made more sense for people to say “Happy Friday!” to me in that context.

      2. rear mech*

        yeah, I have a hard time not rolling my eyes when folks say “have a great weekend!” Dude, we make 80% of our sales Sat-Sun, and I’ll be working my 2 longest and busiest shifts of the week. I go home in pain Saturday evening and open Sunday morning

    19. qwerty*

      weird thing to hate, i guess. I don’t love it or anything, and in some context it can be annoying in the same way I can sometimes find work/life balance lectures annoying, but it’s not personally harming me. some people just like to get up in arms about everything.

    20. Lissa*

      Meh…if I avoid every phrase people hate, especially if I include people online, I’d never talk. Which I’m sure would suit some people just fine! But then never talking would also probably get me some hate, so I’ll just try not to repeat myself too often. Seriously though, there are phrases that annoy me but I realize it’s my issue and try not to take it out on the people who say them. I have an irrational distaste for the phrase “little one” to describe children for instance, but it doesn’t make me think less of people who do it. I just have an internal cringe.

    21. EmployeeHotlineBling*

      I got an email today wishing me a “happy Fri-yay” and nearly fell out of my seat laughing.
      I have heard colleagues call Thursday “Friday Junior” or “Friday Eve” and both make me cackle.

      I am a person who VERY MUCH enjoys the “happy weekday” salutation, ESPECIALLY if a weird joke is tossed in there. Everyone please keep doing this.

      1. Autumnheart*

        How about S.H.I.T.! (So Happy It’s Thursday)

        I didn’t come up with that one, but I’ve gotten some laughs with it.

        1. Snazzy Hat*

          I had a counselor who I was seeing on a weekly basis, and after a particular session she said, “See you next Tuesday!” After a short pause, she added, “Oh my god, I swear I didn’t mean it like that! Woah!”

    22. Friday in DC*

      Along similar lines, I have a few coworkers who really hate “happy Friday-eve” (said on Thursday)

    23. clunker*

      It’s one thing to say it to another office worker on a Mon-Fri schedule, but just…. don’t say it to a cashier or service worker literally anywhere you don’t personally work at. The weekends tend to be the most stressful times for them, and a lot of them *will* think “god I hate you” if you say it.

    24. Gatomon*

      Never gotten pushback on the phrase myself, but I can see how it could get annoying. At ExJob, it was ingrained in the culture, mostly because DreadBoss usually worked from home on Fridays.

      I do try to only save it for good news, like letting someone know a problem has been resolved and it happens to also be Friday!

    25. CastIrony*

      Because they’ll be working this weekend/a weekend day (typical for me), and the person saying, “Happy Friday” typically works Monday-Friday. For me, I feel a tiny bit jealous but genuinely happy for the other person because it’s the end of their work week, and I know how that feels like.

      I also know other people that also say, “Today’s my Friday!” because they may work days like Sunday-Thursday or Tuesday-Saturday. I, too, am happy for people when it’s their Friday!

      Happy Friday!

    26. Gibby*

      We had a receptionist who answered the phone Happy *Weekday*! I work in collections and had a customer who we were suing call me, when he got to me, he says “what’s so effen happy about Tuesday?!”
      She was told to stop the next day.

    27. kc89*

      it’s really obnoxious when friday isn’t your “friday” and you are working over the weekend

      there’s a lotttt of people who work weekends, and I’m sure a lot of them hate hearing “happy friday”

  14. Shark Whisperer*

    When do I start applying for other jobs?

    I am a federal contractor and my agency is shutdown. I love my job. I love my team. I believe strongly in the work I am doing. My office is walking distance from my house. There are downsides too, but overall, I am happy here.

    My contracting company can only pay us for so long as they are not getting paid. We have a meeting today, but it is very likely we will go on unpaid leave staring February 1st and then be laid off at the end of February or beginning of March. It feels like this shutdown is going to go on for a long time.

    Part of me thinks that I should start applying for other jobs now, but its so hard. It hard for me to get excited about another job, when I already have the job I want. I can’t even imagine going to an interview and being asked “why do you want this job?” because the answer is I don’t but the job I really want isn’t sustainable. I also would feel a little guilty leaving. My team is already going to be drowning in work when the government reopens and I know others have started to look for others jobs. It just sucks.

    Any advice or kind words would be much appreciated.

    1. Kate*

      Remember that the hiring process can take a long time, and you can always decline a job. Applying for something new doesn’t mean that you have to leave, if things change.

    2. Coffee Bean*

      I wish I had advice, but I don’t. I am just so sorry for how this is effecting you and your family.

      Best of luck.

      1. Batshua*

        This. Nobody knows how long the shutdown will last. You still have bills to pay, so start applying now.

    4. TooTiredToThink*

      What they’ve said so far. Remember to apply for unemployment and then most likely you’ll have to apply for jobs because of it. But you never know; you might find something that you do like better. But just do what you can.

    5. IL JimP*

      I guess it depends on how long you can wait it out. It really sucks that you’re not getting paid and may eventually lose your job.

      If you can wait to see if the shutdown ends in the next few weeks then wait, I don’t know if going into interviews not in a good headspace is the best option either

    6. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Start now and start seriously.

      You can love your job but this will not be the last shutdown. They aren’t funding the government for years at a time, it’s weeks or months. Federal workers will get backpay, contractors aren’t guaranteed. It comes down to: you need a job that will pay you. And federal contracting is not guaranteed to be it.

      It sucks. It absolutely sucks. But that’s the world we live in. I’m an employee with a funded agency and I’m starting to be worried about how long we have funding for.

      I think if you get the question in the interview, you can say straight out “I’m a federal contractor” and everyone will understand.

    7. Not All*

      Well, I was just reading that they had to shut down LaGuardia because of a lack of air traffic controllers, so I’m guessing they’ll pass the funding pretty quickly. You could start the process to be doing something just in case.

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we have another shutdown next year, though they don’t usually do them election years. I know a lot of people who are making the decision that the stress isn’t worth it for them, but that’s something that only you can decide. (I’m less than 15 years away from my federal retirement eligibility so I’m stuck myself.)

    8. Me*

      Now! Sending in an application is no guarantee you will get an interview. If you get an interview no guarantee you’ll be hired. And if you get to the offer part – then that’s when you have to make a decision.

      If nothing else, it will make you feel like you have some control in an overall situation that is out of your control.

      Good luck!

    9. schnauzerfan*

      We’ve received several apps recently from furloughed workers for our current opening. So, it’s apparently not too soon. From the other side, if I hire one of these folks how can I be sure they’re not planning on going back once the shutdown ends? So far none of the applicants have been a great fit, but I’m sure that if this drags on much longer…

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        From the other side, if I hire one of these folks how can I be sure they’re not planning on going back once the shutdown ends?

        You can’t, just like you can’t be sure that your next applicant from the private sector won’t accept your job offer and then leave if they get a better offer somewhere else. The most you can do is ask the question during the interview question, ask follow-ups if you’re still not fully convinced, and if the furloughed employee turns out to be your best candidate, well, hire them and hope your work environment is such that they won’t want to leave for anything else. That’s all you can really do.

    10. Overeducated*

      I’m hoping the air traffic controller issue will end this quickly, but it can’t hurt to see what’s out there. I did, there are no good fit positions to apply for right now so my calculus is to wait, but you can’t know what makes sense if you don’t explore alternatives. I’m so sorry you’re in this position.

    11. Master Bean Counter*

      Temping? Retail? Any kind of thing that doesn’t expect a long commitment that will pay the bills? And when you go back to regular work something might give you a few hours a week to build the savings up to weather future storms or vacations?

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Dip your toes in. See what’s out there. You don’t need to scurry immediately it sounds like. You’ll have time to grieve your loss of your ideal job, don’t let it drag you down so far you’re in a bad situation if layoffs do start.

      It’s crushing. Most layoffs are in the end but you will rise above and maybe your next team is just as wonderful. You don’t know that until you let yourself move on from the ghost of a team you love now.

    13. caligirl*

      Hi there,
      Contractor here too but not personally furloughed… but about half of my company is.

      Is there any “surge” support that you can do for an overworked division? To do those things that always get pushed to the back burner such as updating the internal websites? Maybe fill in for someone who is on leave or needs to take an afternoon off? In my office, our program manager wants the office manned until 4 pm and sometimes the person literally just sits there until 4!

      I’m sooo sorry you are dealing with this and I hope we are back to ‘”normal” work on Monday!

    14. Ladylike*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. As a general rule, I would begin looking for a job the moment I found out mine was at risk. My company is currently closing a plant and initially gave them a 6-month deadline. Within a month, that changed to 3 months. Now people are scrambling, which I really don’t understand, because job searching takes time! Always start ASAP.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Does this afternoon’s 3-week restart make you feel relief? Maybe you can treat your reaction like flipping a coin–if you like the results, run with it.

  15. Lost*

    If I’m hired for a job but keep job hunting, how soon can I put the new job on my resume?

    For context, I’ve been unemployed for over a year and am interviewing for a job next week. I don’t think it’s meant to be a high turnover job, but it’s low paying so it’s not financially feasible for me to stay long term as I already exhausted most of my savings.

    I’d hope being employed would make me a desirable candidate again, but could it also be off-putting because companies will wonder why I’m looking to jump ship so soon? Or would they be able to tell I took the job because I needed ANY job after being unemployed for so long?

    I’m also worried about other things. What if they ask at the interview how long I plan to stay? (I’m technically very “overqualified” for the job so they might be suspicious.) What if I’m hired and then need to take time off for interviews early on? (I already have two doctor appointments scheduled for February, so they might get mad at any additional appointments.)

    1. plant lady*

      I would NOT interview for and accept a job that you really don’t want and are planning to leave ASAP, especially if it’s not one planning for/expecting high turnover (e.g., maybe if it was super part-time, minimum wage work stocking shelves or retail or food service or something, you could do this.) If you financially have to take ANY job ASAP, then just commit yourself to staying for at least 3-6 months, then re-start the job search then. And still, in that case I’d aim to look for something where they expect higher turnover rates, or a seasonal or temp position.

      1. INeedANap*

        I think that there are many people who do not have the luxury of this. Super part time and minimum wage work is not enough to live on. That’s just not practical if you have an offer from a job that will pay you more. And if OP gets, and takes, that offer, no one should pass up the opportunity for well-paid stable work just because they haven’t been at their current job for 3-6 months.

        1. Lost*

          Yes, staying in low paying jobs can be a luxury. I spent a year trying to find a job I could stay in long-term, and that didn’t work out. I started applying to part time and minimum-wage-high-turnover jobs a few months ago, but haven’t had any luck with them either. I need whatever job I can get, and if it’s a very low paying one then I’m just going to start racking up credit card bills the longer I stay.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          I kind of have to agree with this even though I know this kind of thing sucks from the employer’s standpoint. At my last company, I was apart of our trainee program’s interview panel, and during our interview training prep course, the HR rep leading it said it usually costs double the new hire’s salary to recruit and onboard a new hire, which I thought was absolutely nuts. So yeah, if I was hiring for a position that I was hoping to fill long-term, and someone took the job knowing they’d be out of there in as little as three months, I’d be very annoyed due to all of the resources that were wasted that we’d now have use again to find a replacement.

          That being said, I’ve also been the long-term unemployed with little to no money, and I too took a job I had no plans of staying in long-term (luckily, I was let go with a nice severance package a couple months later and landed in something a little more stable). I couldn’t wait to find the job that was going to be “the one” when I was drowning in student loan debt and straining my poor single mother’s already small budget – I had to work doing anything, and no one would hire me in retail or food service because, with my degree and education, they knew I’d leave immediately as well.

          All this to say, OP, if you do end up getting the job, take it. But be sure that when you start job searching again you have a solid reason for why you’re trying to leave, apply only to places you can see yourself staying long-term, and then seriously commit to staying at the next place for at least two years. That’s what I ended up doing, and my career has taken off since then.

    2. Penguin*

      To some extent, it depends on your career field and the nature of the job. If your career has been in llama wrangling and this is for a llama wrangling technician position (i.e. same career field but very entry-level) then job hunting with that on your resume for less than ~six months is likely to raise eyebrows and/or flags and you might be better off not including it.

      On the other hand, if you take a job unrelated to your field (retail clerk, for example; or, as a mentor of mine once put it, “a job you can quit on two weeks notice without worrying about it affecting your career because it has nothing to do with your career”) you 1) may raise fewer questions and 2) have a ready, pragmatic answer: “I took that job to make ends meet while I continued looking for something permanent/in my field/that I was a better fit for/etc.” Presumably _some_ people are out-of-touch enough to expect applicants to be able to ignore the practical reality of having to feed oneself, but being upfront, matter-of-fact, and non-defensive about your decision will likely help you with many/most interviewers.

      1. Lost*

        It’s a “file clerk” job. My previous jobs have included filing things here and there as I finished work, but it was never a main part my job. I don’t feel that I have a career per say, but I don’t think someone with my background would necessarily be looking at file clerk jobs if they had better options.

    3. ANon.*

      Unfortunately, if you get this job, I don’t think it’s going to be worth putting on your resume unless you’ve been there for a decent amount of time (more than a few months). It’s not likely that you’ll be able to show that you’ve produced good work in that new job until you’ve been there a while, so having it on your resume isn’t going to be much help until then.

      Sorry, that’s probably not what you wanted to hear. :( Best of luck with the job search!

      1. Lost*

        I’m not really concerned about showing I produced good work or gained new skills (it’s a very simple job). I just thought it might be important to put it on my resume right away to show I have a job. Like, would employers be more interested in someone who’s been unemployed for over a year, or someone who was unemployed for over a year but now has a job? I worry that my resume gets trashed as soon as anyone looks at the top and sees I haven’t worked in over a year. Aren’t they probably thinking they shouldn’t hire me if no one else will?

        1. Beatrice*

          I think I’d be more worried about seeing a job you started last month on there, than thinking you weren’t currently employed, unless the job was clearly a temp gig. I’d be wanting to hear a really good story about why you were job hunting again so soon, and it would need to be something seriously bad, like they were abusive or you were being asked to break the law or work in really dangerous conditions. Otherwise I’d be worried that if I hired you, you’d leave again soon, and it would be difficult to convince me otherwise.

          1. Lost*

            The reasoning I would give for wanting to keep job hunting would be that I took a job to pay bills and now wanted something that paid closer to my previous salary, that was more in line with my interests, and that could be a long term job. Hopefully that’s enough of an explanation!

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Temp agencies are great for this… you can take a long series of jobs with gaps on interview days. You can mention just a few posts that show something worthwhile. You can let people at the temp job know when you’re interested in staying.

        2. ChachkisGalore*

          This is tough – we all hear that it’s way better to be employed than not when looking (like it looks better), but I think cons of you starting the job recently and looking to leave so quickly could outweigh the pros of being employed.

          It probably depends a bit about what type of job the “temporary” one is. If it’s like fast food or retail work (or any work very widely understood to be high turnover) I think it would be less likely to be held against you. Same if its part-time work. I think those would be easier for hiring managers to differentiate from their long-term/low turnover role and not project the same behavior (leaving quickly).

          Unfortunately though, I think listing the recently started “temporary” job might make them think you could be likely to jump ship from them too as soon as something better comes along. Personally, I wouldn’t judge someone for taking a job they have no intention of keeping long term if their financial situation is getting very precarious, but I can also see how a hiring manager would be concerned.

          Good luck! It sucks to be in this situation, but I’m hoping things will turnaround for you!

          1. Lost*

            I’m not sure how temporary the job seems to outsiders. The only listed requirements are a high school diploma and the ability to arrange files in alphabetical and numerical order, so it sounds like the kind of job someone might get temporarily to save up for college or to do while attending classes at night. I have a bachelor’s degree and several years doing work that’s much more advanced than filing, so I would hope no one would expect it to be a long term job for me. (But it’s possible that I have unrealistic expectations or am arrogant and should just be happy for any job.)

        3. MoopySwarpet*

          You’d definitely want to come up with a really good way to explain that in a cover letter or it’s probably still going in the trash IF it’s in fact going there without the “throw away” job.

          Personally, as a hiring manager, I’m not sure if I’d rather see a short “throw away” job on a resume or a large employment gap. Neither is (obviously) ideal. I think if it’s not minimally 3 months, I’d be concerned you were only applying to my job for the same reason. But with just a large gap, I might be worried that I’m your “throw away” job.

          Would it be possible in your area or field to sign up with a temp agency instead? Then you can say you currently work for LlamaTemps, but even if you’re getting crappy low paying jobs, at least you’re getting exposed to several companies and you might also find one that needs temporary coverage for llama scheduling and reception, but is also looking to hire a high qualified groomer. Or, at the very least, it will be obvious that it’s a temp job designed to be a stop gap while you find a full time job.

          1. Lost*

            I actually hadn’t even thought of addressing it in the cover letter! So, if hired at “throw away job,” should I be writing that I am currently in a “throw away job” role, but am looking at other jobs that would be a better long-term fit and am interested in “better job” for reasons a, b and c?

            I’ve applied to jobs that temp agencies posted but haven’t heard back from any of them. I don’t think I’m a very desirable candidate at this point.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              You can physically walk in to a temp agency and sign up to be evaluated. You aren’t limited fto their posted positions–those might be a small percentage.
              Many offer training, at least in software tools. And some used to offer health insurance for long- term employees.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Right now you have a year gap on your resume, that’s starting to wade into “why this length of time between jobs, territory. So please take the job and keep looking. It’ll give you padding, it may take you another year to find something. Put it on around 3 months. Explain to people you’re moving on so soon because of not having a sustainable salary.

      You don’t owe any company any set amount of your time. Do your job and be invested while you’re there but don’t feel loyalty to them. They’re paying peanuts, they’re lucky to have a qualified person give them a few months of good work but not someone you now owe 20 years of servitude to!

      Be respectful of them but remember if 3 months into the job they decided to downsize and lay you off, they’re probably not going to lose sleep over it.

      There are places that ask you how long you’re thinking of staying if hired?! That’s nonsense and over stepping unless you have a resume with 6 months at each job staring at them. We assume people will stay on until the job no longer suits them or they get a new job.

      We just had someone leave after 6 months. He got headhunted. We are sad but knew he’s worth much more and heck yeah he needed to take a job at 3x his previous salary!

      1. Lost*

        Good point that it could take me another year to find a job! I have no idea when I’ll be able to get something better (if ever), so if I’m offered a less-than-optimal job I better take it.

        At interviews I like to ask how long people usually stay in the position because I’m trying to figure out if it’s something I could stay in long-term, so I figured an employer might ask how long I planned to stay in the position (especially since it’s a “step down” kind of job for me). I’ve never actually been asked about that before though.

        Seems like a couple people have agreed that I should wait a few months before putting any “temporary” jobs on my resume, so I will do that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s a fair question as a job seeker. Along with asking why they have a vacancy! But as an employer it’s pushy and presumptuous :)

          You will find a job that suits you and pays you the wages you are looking for! Don’t let the doubts creep in but it’s okay to be in a “this works for now” job.

          Life is constantly moving us along. Your job is out there and you’ll find it but there’s a path you haven’t stumbled upon.

          I’m big of “timing” is key. Everything in my life is weird and accidental. Like I followed a white rabbit and the adventures has been endless. Each job is a “lol how did this happen” moment.

          I’m not some kooky person trying to sell you snake oil either. I just know life is a helluva ride and don’t bail off the rollercoaster just yet.

          1. Lost*

            Nah, you don’t sound kooky–just an optimistic and positive person. It’s hard to stay hopeful when things haven’t been going well for so long, so thanks for the vote of confidence!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      ” could it also be off-putting because companies will wonder why I’m looking to jump ship so soon?”

      It might be? Take that preemptive strike and anticipate they will ask a question. Maybe put it in your cover letter. “I am currently employed at a modest job in order to help pay my bills. I want to give my current employer the standard two weeks notice.”
      Then in person you can say that you feel being fair to this employer is important to you, so you will work through your two weeks notice then start with New Employer.

      ” Or would they be able to tell I took the job because I needed ANY job after being unemployed for so long?” This is why you can explain BEFORE they ask. It’s much easier to contain what ever random thoughts they have.

      “What if they ask at the interview how long I plan to stay?”

      How long do you think your job search will be?
      If you don’t know/aren’t sure then say, “I would like to stay at least a year.” I have left off some of my better resume points for some of the jobs, just so they did not ask too much. Sometimes they figure it out, “Oh, you worked at X so you learned how to do Y.” I just answer honestly, what else is there.

      Time off. Can you move one of the doctor’s appointment to March? OTH, can you do those appointments now because February is so close. OR Can you leave the doctor’s appointments in place and schedule interviews before or after the appointments? (Leverage the situation.)

  16. Baby Fishmouth*

    Are any other Ontario post-secondary employees concerned about the 10% tuition cut the Ontario Government just announced? I work at an Ontario university and it sounds like it might affect quite a few people’s employment. Is anyone else concerned about the same thing?

    1. MG*

      Hi – fellow Ontarian here. I don’t work in Ontario’s academic sector yet, but I was planning to start applying for teaching jobs at a few colleges. I do share your concern, but quite honestly I have not had a chance to look into how it may affect ppl’s employment, only read the/watched the news reports about the tuition cuts and the removal of grants for students (which was just a further disappointment).

      1. Enough*

        This should not be an issue for hiring. It appears to be take from the left and give with the right. It just changes how the cost/tuition is covered. Ex – If you lower tuition by $1000 but reduce grants by $1000 the overall cost to students is the same. A number of private college in the US are doing something similar.

        1. Baby Fishmouth*

          The cost to the students is the same, but the cost for universities is drastic (where I work, it could be up to a 7% budget cut) which could definitely impact hiring.

          Although for many students, the lowering the amount of grants does not offset the tuition. For students who qualified for free tuition this past year (those who come from families making under $50 000/year), they are now losing roughly $9000/year in grants, and this is offset by…a $900 tuition reduction? It hurts both sides, in my view.

    2. A tester, not a developer*

      I’m concerned that it’s going to turn every course offering (and every professor) into a purely financial calculation. Want to study Classics? Sorry, it’s not a money maker – but there’s plenty of ‘profitable’ engineering or computer science options for you.
      To my mind one advantage of university over college is the diversity of things to study (my long ago degree specifically had a requirement that you had to take at least 4 credits outside your field of study). But if budgets are being stripped to the bone, it’s a hard to continue to offer ‘impractical’ courses. And when that happens, universities become high end trade schools – not places that teach you to learn and think independently.

  17. Sincerely*

    A bunch of us coworkers had a get together recently and I was left pondering something. My department is largely made up of liberal-minded, progressive folks. We recently had a staff meeting about creating an inclusive environment and many of the sentiments expressed were about self-policing behavior so as to not trigger employees. It became a little extreme and several coworkers were of the opinion that those who are ignorant should always ask if something was ok before discussing something… to the point that many interactions would be pretty restricted due to how certain conversations might affect not only those in the conversation, but those who overhear it. (for example congratulating a coworker who has told you they are trying to lose weight for losing weight, because another coworker who may be experiencing weight issues or disordered eating may be triggered — we didn’t get into whether someone should discuss wanting to lose weight as there may be others overhearing who are triggered by needing to gain weight?).

    I’m all for an inclusive environment, but what was described by my colleagues didn’t feel inclusive. It felt restrictive so as not to offend anyone. And rather than creating an environment where everyone is comfortable learning from each other, it’s an environment where no one feels safe asking a question that may elicit discomfort. And yet, these same colleagues also had very definite opinions about straight, white men (particularly those who work for the company). And although, we certainly have some stereotypical male behavior in our company, there’s been a lot of anti-white man talk after hours.

    All of this is to say, the culture in my department and organization is changing and is beginning to feel toxic. (Which is sad, because I have enjoyed working here) I’m honestly not sure if I should just shut my mouth and accept it (because it’s likely the nature of the workplace these days trying to adapt to changing times) or leave and find some place better (because I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to regulate collegial interactions in this way.)

    1. Jack be Nimble*

      If the culture of your workplace is changing in ways you dislike, I think the sensible answer is to look for new opportunities! I think I’m on the side of your colleagues, but if you’re made uncomfortable by new prevailing norms, you should definitely feel free to begin job hunting, even if it’s a non-intensive search while you wait to see how things play out.

    2. Snark*

      I mean, that kind of tendency has bothered me a lot around here, so I understand the annoyance at the tendency to obsessively police and analyze inoccuous statements and discussions to preemptively avoid notional offense. It can get exhausting.

      But, that said: I don’t really get how avoiding some topics is “restrictive” or “toxic.” Your example of discussing weight loss is a good one: that’s a pretty personal, third-rail kind of topic for a workplace! Not that I think it should be assiduously categorically avoided, but a lot of workplaces do have really unhealthy conversations about weight, in a way that is genuinely harmful to people. I generally have those conversations with people I know well enough to know it’s appropriate and appreciated.

      We’re living through a period of time where white, straight, cis-het men are not exactly covering themselves in glory. As someone who fits all of those descriptors, it’s rarely comfortable for me to hear stuff like that, but I’m also doing my best to not center my feelings and reactions in this moment. It’s not about me, or at least not mostly so.

      Ultimately, I don’t really think it’s that hard to steer clear of potentially contentious topics. It’s work. I don’t think you have to self-police to an obsessive degree, but given that it’s not family or friends, it shouldn’t be that hard to keep to topics that are inherently less personal and emotional.

      1. Washi*

        I tend to agree, especially based on this: “And although, we certainly have some stereotypical male behavior in our company, there’s been a lot of anti-white man talk after hours.” If there is a noticeable amount of poor behavior by some men in the company, I’m not surprised people are complaining about it. And it doesn’t sound like there are any proposed punishments for accidentally talking about some of these topics, just asking that people try to be aware of the effect they can have on others.

        I think sometimes to avoid anxiety/awkwardness of finding out that something you thought was benign actually isn’t always, it can be easier to say others are being too sensitive. I’ve definitely experienced that, and I think what helped me was just accepting that I am going to make mistakes, but still doing my best to abide by what others have asked, even if I didn’t always completely understand at first.

        1. Sincerely*

          I’ve certainly learned things about some of my male coworkers that were utterly disappointing. So, I do understand the venom directed at them. I’m both uncomfortable and anxious about it also to be fair. So you’re totally right. But I also can’t support conversations that are about how straight men in general suck. Certainly I support conversations about how mansplainers suck or entitled, spoiled, ignorant men suck. Or men who have no concept/awareness of what it’s like to be discriminated against due to race, religion, sexuality, etc. But, when we paint all men with a wide brush, we actually end up discriminating against men and that’s not the answer either.

          Sadly, I don’t think I’m capable of explaining my thoughts about this in a way that conveys both my understanding and sympathy for those who experience societal obstacles that shouldn’t exist, alongside my belief that swinging the pendulum in the exact opposite direction will not resolve the issue and will only force the pendulum to swing faster in the opposite direction and take longer to resolve.

          1. Sparkly Lady*

            I used to be more in line with your co-workers, and I am now more in line with you in finding this approach to be toxic rather than helpful. What I have experienced is that “inclusive” does not actually mean what I would consider inclusive–a space that attempts to be of equivalent comfort to everyone who may be part. Instead, in practice, some people’s pain and feelings are considered legitimate whereas others’ pain and feelings are considered illegitimate.

            Also, only negative feelings are given importance… the joy and happiness that people can feel from some things is discounted as irrelevant (like your example of having weight loss complimented).

            Given that we’re all supposed to focus on impact rather than intent, I wish there was more willingness to acknowledge the downsides of this type of restrictive approach. Activists have been writing about them for years now.

      2. Sincerely*

        The weight loss question was actually interesting. We were discussing whether it was appropriate to have a conversation with a colleague about losing weight that you know would appreciate it or wouldn’t be upset. And one of my colleagues said, it was still inappropriate because someone else could overhear the conversation and they may be triggered by it.

        But, I’m also not talking about controversial subjects. There was a very big debate about wishing people happy birthday.

        1. Snark*

          And, like….maybe! Someone could overhear that, and I think that’s a reason to read the room or pick a time to discuss that particular topic when you’re reasonably certain you’re not broadcasting. But it’s bonkers to just completely avoud that topic. And as for birthdays, good gravy, if that’s controversial…yikes.

          At some point, I think it’d be worth introducing the concept of good faith in these discussions. Like, yes, it’s concievable that an otherwise inoccuous topic could potentially offend someone, but it’s also on all of us to realize these kinds of glancing hits are probably not aimed at us, and should not be taken personally. People who you know and work with are not trying to trigger you with an inoccuous wish for a happy birthday.

          1. Existentialista*

            I’m really interested in hearing the pros and cons of saying Happy Birthday, if you can share them

            1. Sincerely*

              The question was is it appropriate to wish someone a happy birthday. Some folks thought it was a ridiculous question full stop, that the subject isn’t so sensitive to warrant so much preparation and people should be able to communicate well enough with each other to discuss it if need be. Others felt the question was assumptive and that some people don’t like their birthdays and therefore you should ask.

              1. Snark*

                Yeah, that’s nuts. Sure, it’s assumptive! Safely so! At some point, we can all trust that people who don’t like their birthdays are grown-ass adults who can say, as pleases them, “Oh, thanks,” and carrying on under the assumption that you didn’t know their particular preference but taking it in the spirit it was meant, or “Oh, thanks, but I’m not big on birthdays, please don’t mention mine in the future,” if it’s a Thing.

            2. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Off the top of my head? My daughter’s school had a relatively high percentage of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They don’t do birthdays.

          2. Nita*

            I think that’s definitely part of the answer. At some point, the government/boss/society should stop mothering people and let them think for themselves: is this conversation meant to hurt someone, or is the topic being discussed in good faith? And is it about you, or are you inserting yourself into something that has nothing to do with you?

            I have a relative who must be the original word police. I got so sick and tired of explaining to that self-centered jackass that my comment that it’s raining hard is not meant as criticism of his wearing sandals. That telling my mom her baked chicken is delicious is not a snide comment on his choice to go vegetarian. That he should stop hovering next to me when I’m on the phone with my doctor on the off chance I’ll say something critical of him. It was a very toxic way to live, and not the kingdom of light and niceness that never being offensive is supposed to bring about.

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          If you switch anything else for weight loss, though, the fallacy is clearer:
          “Can I congratulate someone on her new baby when someone who is infertile or had an abortion might overhear?”
          “Can I congratulate someone on their wedding when someone who just ended a relationship might overhear?”
          “Can I congratulate someone on their new house when someone who can’t afford a house might overhear?”
          “Can I congratulate someone on their retirement when someone who can’t afford to retire might overhear?”

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            I mean, I think it’s a little fallacious to treat all topics as though they’re interchangeable.

            Eating disorders, and the existence of social pressure that can trigger them or trigger relapses in recovery, are a pretty indisputable fact, and I’m not sure that discussing weddings, retirement, house purchases, etc can be compared equally when there isn’t a “wedding disorder” or “retirement disorder” equivalent.

            1. clunker*

              Exactly, the closer equivalent is “Can I offer all the coworkers in this room a glass of wine right now when one might have a history of alcoholism.”

              1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                Yep, and I think the answer for that one is a much clearer-cut “that’s not a good idea.”

                I think that the language of inclusivity and triggers is new and uncomfortable for a lot of people, but the notion of there being a list of topics that you shouldn’t discuss in the office is not actually a new or particularly partisan one, and adding weight loss to the list seems like a relatively benign culture move.

                1. Snark*

                  And see, I don’t really agree that’s clear cut. I’ve got plenty of family and friends with alcoholism in their makeup, and they have all been offered alcohol in a well-meaning and unknowing way. They do not find it especially pleasant or uncomplicated, but neither is it a faux pas.

                  I otherwise agree that there are a list of topics to be generally avoided, at least in general workplace chatter that could be overheard, but I’m not convinced that it’s incumbent on all of us to proactively avoid essentially topics that could potentially intersect with someone’s notional issue around that topic.

                2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

                  I think there’s a sliding scale of topics that are obviously fraught to topics that are less obviously potentially fraught. Obviously, where to draw the line on “just don’t” is going to vary, but it’s not a bad thing to occasionally review where we’re putting various things on the scale, and maybe add or subtract certain ones from the list of “not at work.”

                  To me, things like weight loss aren’t essential to discuss in the office, and they’re far enough to the “just don’t” side of the scale that it’s appropriate to agree not to bring them up at work.

                  The way my friends generally operate with this kind of thing socially, we recognize topics that are obviously “proceed with caution,” and we have topics that one or more people have specifically requested don’t get discussed around them. Both these categories get honored.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  Agreed.
                  I think there are two parts here.
                  The other part is telling people to let others know when a topic is a poor choice AND encouraging others to respect that statement on the first mention. (Emphasis on the word first.)

              2. Noteworthy*

                I think Quinn raises a good point though. You may think it’s fallacious to compare scenarios and that they’re not interchangable, but the issue is that others will believe that these situations are applicable within the context of the question. (I personally think the first example is perfectly relevant.

                Can you offer coworkers in this room a plate of cookies if one of them has diabetes? Or is gluten free? Or allergic to nuts? Or chocolate?

                I think it’s fair to make accommodations for perks in the office when possible. (whether that’s food or socialization) But I also think it is not the responsibility of the office to manage someone’s illness. Maintaining one’s own health and wellbeing is directly up to them. If they are uncomfortable with a situation, they need to find solutions to address it. Ideally the company would create an environment that allows for communication and discussion. But regardless of one’s situation — whether that be mental illness, alcoholism, diabetes, or any other scenario — if one needs accommodations, it would be irresponsible to expect someone to know the right questions to ask or the right accommodations to make if they don’t have your insight and experience.

                1. clunker*

                  Offering someone a cookie is not force-feeding them the cookie- they can say no and you can move on.

                  On the other hand, exposing someone to a trigger related to something like an addiction or an eating disorder are different. They have had the adverse health consequence/exposure immediately. It’s not the same to offer someone something that could cause an adverse consequence. Offering someone a cookie is not the same as them eating a cookie.
                  (And yes, trigger is the appropriate clinical language in both of those contexts)

                  The only one in your list that could be compared is if someone was very allergic- enough to the point that being in the same room as something with nuts could be dangerous. I think it’s fair not to ban all foods that can be seriously allergic like that, but I also don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask “Should we have a policy about food brought from home, in case someone is allergic?” There are different answers to that question based on the size of the group in question, but it’s reasonable to ask.

            2. MRK*

              My mother actually had a coworker get upset because my mother dared to mention within her hearing that my parents were about to finish their 30 year mortgage. Because clearly my mother was trying to make her feel bad about… something?

              1. Snark*

                And this is the kind of thing that you canot possibly plan for, avoid, or be sensitive enough to mitigate.

            3. Sparkly Lady*

              I don’t think it’s an indisputable fact that people in recovery from eating disorders or other addictions are likely to relapse at overhearing other people’s conversations. And while there is no “wedding disorder” or “retirement disorder,” someone in the midst of a bad breakup could absolutely have situational depression triggered by wedding talk or someone really struggling with finances can have situational depression triggered by mortgage or retirement talk. Baby talk absolutely is painful for those who have had miscarriages or are having fertility challenges, and Allison’s had letters talking about that directly!

              Once people are expected to hold themselves responsible for the mental health needs of anyone who may overhear them, conversations get very complicated and IMHO, very impersonal.

        3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          Between this question and the one about a coworker quietly wearing a cross, I think I need to crawl under my desk.

          Yes, I agree with you, this sounds absolutely oppressive to me. I’m not saying that all topics are appropriate for a workplace setting but oh boy this is over the top. If it helps, not all workplaces are this way.

          I can’t think of one topic that doesn’t have the ability to make someone feel bad. Some examples have already been mentioned. Did the group discussing this give examples of what is left for discussions?

    3. Former Expat*

      This is the second time I’ll recommend “I can tolerate everything except the outgroup” today. I think that I would find myself in the same position as you. Actions speak louder than words and I do think that virtue signalling is turning into a bloodsport on some circles. I probably vote the same way your colleagues do, but “self-policing” makes me very uneasy. This is no exaggeration, it reminds me of China in the 60s-70s when ppl had to write “Self-criticisms.” Maybe it is time to move on. It is okay to feel sad about that.

      1. Sincerely*

        See, the thing is — I’m pretty open minded. So, I can understand the belief behind what their saying. I may even agree. I just don’t agree with the method they’re using to address it. I think it will diminish opportunities for engagement and conversation and result in creating an environment of repression and exclusivity — where like hangs out with like — which is the exact opposite of what needs to happen.

        1. WellRed*

          “I think it will diminish opportunities for engagement and conversation and result in creating an environment of repression and exclusivity”

          This would be a great thing to say if you ever felt a need to address it. I get being careful what you say in a work group setting, but this bunch seems one step away from coloring books in a safe space.

        2. Former Expat*

          yep, sometimes the folks who talk the loudest about diversity are the ones guilty of hanging out only with people who are just like them

      2. Considered Secularist*

        Thank you for that recommendation. I read it and it’s quite thought-provoking, as well as beautifully written.

    4. LKW*

      It’s a lovely sentiment, but at what point do you have to even stop talking about the weather because someone’s grandma died in a tornado 20 years ago?

      Sensitivity is great. We all know what topics are absolutely inappropriate for work. Everything else requires a level of sensitivity yes, but if someone is so emotionally fragile that hearing about a weight loss program sends them into an emotional spiral, they need to get some help. And I say this as someone who has been overweight all her life and listens to people wax rhapsodically about their exercise and nutrition programs with a slight discomfort that is MINE to own. They are not responsible for me.

      And avoiding discussions because someone might overhear? Unless you’re gossiping or going to those inappropriate for work topics- you should not have to control your conversation to that level.

      1. Mazzy*

        I agree. I have a toolbox for dealing with conversations that go south in the office. For example, when the conversation goes to national politics and gets heated, and bring it down to local government and politicians and schools, which are just as important issues, but no one gets upset or takes them as personally (which they should, but that’s neither here nor there).

      3. Elizabeth West*

        As someone who wants kids and has no partner who is constantly bombarded with people’s pregnancy announcements, kid pics, and five-year-old wedding photos, I agree with this too. Nobody else is responsible for my feelings on the matter. That’s down to me. If I feel it starting to upset me, I can discreetly excuse myself from a conversation or skip looking at a post or photo. I can’t demand that no one else bring up their kids in my presence, ever.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yes. And there are times where others’ conversation made me cry. That was something that happened in my head and no where else. They were not conversing about Topic at me. I went to the restroom or whatever, collected myself and came back. Done. Over.
          Almost every topic can be upsetting to someone, somewhere. I have a Family Member who has an extensive list of upsetting topics. Most of the people in the family have given up trying to chat with FM because of the steady stream of “I can’t handle that topic.”
          This is a win the battle, lose the war scenario. Sure, people stop mentioning stuff and then after a bit they stop talking entirely. It’s impossible to protect everyone from everything.

    5. Delphine*

      Do you have another example of restrictive, toxic inclusivity? Your example seems fairly mild and not terribly unreasonable.

      1. Sincerely*

        I’m not saying that the question about weight is an example of restrictive, toxic inclusivity. I’m saying the environment created when staff must constantly assess whether to engage in regular social interactions, such as sharing experiences about weight loss with a coworker you know, or wishing someone happy birthday — combined with an environment that feeds into stereotyping any one, specific group will lead to restrictive, toxic inclusivity. If we have to regulate conversations among coworkers and we can’t rely on our coworkers to have open and informative discussions with each other, then we’re not creating a culture of inclusion. Rather, forced niceties that provide no dialogue for understanding or perspective, so no one learns anything.

        1. Argh!*

          Thinking about things from other peoples’ point of view is always a good practice. Over time, things that we have taken to be “harmless” turn out to be not so harmless after all. Commenting on appearance is easy… because it’s shallow, and people don’t like being judged on their appearance. Also, it’s almost always only directed towards women, so I totally agree with not commenting on a person’s weight loss (or gain).

          If you don’t have a vocabulary of topics at the ready, just do more thinking. It will become a habit and you’ll think back on this phase of your life as the time you grew a little rather than a time of repression. The opposite of insensitive chit-chat isn’t silence.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            But I think the issue that Sincerely is talking about is that they are being coached to reconsider talking about any topic they could possibly mention because of how it might negatively affect someone. The people leading this effort are conflating legitimate problematic statements with completely ordinary sentiments and saying that both carry the same risk of offending someone.

            It’s beyond saying “it’s not okay to tell women to smile or say all white men are d-bags”, to being so hyper-aware of what might or might not negatively affect someone that people don’t know what the safe topics are anymore and feel they can’t even questions or have any conversations that would otherwise increase their understanding of someone else’s situation. I believe that is the problem Sincerely is describing.

        2. Sensitive Snowflake*

          It sounds like your office is taking things too far- and I can definitely relate to feeling like stifling all potentially dangerous conversation is ultimately hurting everyone- you are limiting eye-opening dialogue and normal social interaction.

          But- the weight talk has got to stop. At work, people are always talking about food- I ate too much at lunch, too much this weekend, won’t you have a donut, etc. And it’s difficult for people who don’t have an eating disorder to understand how awful this is. People commenting about my weight, when I was actively struggling, was enough that I would go home and spend days hating myself. Having all of the talk around the office revolve around food made me feel like I would never be able to have friends, because so much social conversation revolves around food, and I really couldn’t listen to it. Even social interaction- do you want to go out for coffee or lunch? I don’t think that I’m being very articulate- but I do think that not just at work, but as a culture, we need to realize how much of our lives revolve around food, and feeling guilty about food, and judging others for eating something “bad” or “good.” Is it really that hard to just never comment on someone’s weight, ever? To just decide not to care what other people eat and to only talk about your diet with close friends?

          Eating disorders are so common, and they are devastating and deadly. And sometimes you have no idea from the outside. Not that your work culture sounds okay- but I’m not a sensitive snowflake for not wanting to be asked about my weight, plus or minus.

          1. Jasnah*

            I think it’s a pretty common social norm in the West to not comment about others’ weight uninvited! Of course as you know people will be jerks anyways.

            Still I would be confused if I was no longer allowed to have the following conversations at work, just because someone with a disordered view of food/eating might overhear.
            “Hey, want a cupcake?”
            “No thanks, I’m on a diet!”

            “Yay I lost/gained 10lbs!”
            “Congrats!

            “Want to go out for lunch?”
            “Sure, but can we go to the salad bar? I want to eat something light.”

            I would never ask someone about their weight, but these are perfectly normal and average conversations for most people, and I think it’s extreme and overprotective to ban conversation topics based on who hypothetically might be offended. If people go on and on about their food and diets uninvited, of course that’s annoying, but taking things to the extreme described is more about virtue signalling than actual care for others.

      2. Mazzy*

        Mild? People seem afraid to speak with each other which is going to stifle teamwork and creativity and new ideas, and she pointed out an example where people gossiped about someone because of their race, and also an example where the self-censorship is spiraling. At my job, there is a department that is important but we don’t correct anything they do because they’ve been offended by perceived slights to no less than five people. This has led to higher project costs because everyone is afraid to point out inefficiencies or downright mistakes. That is the only departments that has had meetings about the tone of conversations, and from what I gather, I think they don’t expect anything negative to ever cross their path, or at the very least, pointing out an obvious error needs to be couched in multiple thank yous and please. But don’t overdo it or they call you out for being patronizing. It’s so unrealistic that even I avoid them. Sometimes I don’t even bother acknowledging them at gatherings beyond a hello, because it’s too much work to think through what they think is acceptable or not to say to them. One of them was slurring and drunk at a party, and when the office was rehashing the party the following week at a lunch and someone asked them how many drinks they had, they were offended. Stuff like that you can’t work around.

        1. Mazzy*

          I’m sorry, I thought I disagreed with you but now I’m seeing that we agree, I think? This is confusing.

    6. qwerty*

      Ohhhh people like that have been driving me nuts. We grow as individuals and as a society by hearing viewpoints other than our own. Personally I think the bar has gotten far too low for what constitutes “triggering.” And I say that as a progressive person who has some triggers of her own. But I know that part of functioning in society is hearing things that might make me think of things I don’t want to think about, and I can’t keep myself from OVERHEARING anything that might trigger me (!!!). And that is NOT the same as someone intentionally coming up to me and saying the triggers because they know they’re triggering for me. These attempts to make inclusive environments just make extremely exclusive and prejudicial environments. I work in higher ed where this is just nonstop. I am against the notion of “safe spaces” as they’ve come to be. Yes, people should not be subjected to being harassed over race, nationality, gender identity, sexual preference, etc., but that doesn’t mean we should never have to hear an opinion that is different from our own. I agree… the workplace you’re describing is toxic. Some culture police are dictating what everyone else can talk about.

    7. Tinker*

      Hrm.

      Maybe it would help to think of the matter of explicitly asking as not so much a new thing to accommodate all these new differences that coworkers might potentially have, but as another way of implementing the general and more-established rule of “know your audience” and “some subjects are at your own risk” that historically is accomplished more by intuitive judgment and reference to the standards of the local dominant culture?

      Like, admittedly I’m an autistic guy who was held to the standard of southern-US female gender roles growing up, but to me the notion that you can potentially ask people with words as to whether or not they’re okay with discussion of a potentially controversial subject and take their answer approximately at face value (with some caveats) as to whether you can continue has more the smell of glorious freedom and clarity to me.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My tolerance for swerving between extremes is very low.

      This is as gnarly as the extremists who squeal on about “all the sensitive snowflakes gotta loosen up!”. No. There’s a middle ground.

      Foster an environment to speak up. If someone is triggered, make them feel safe to say “I prefer we don’t discuss dieting!” and you say “my apologies, we won’t do that around you any longer.” but you can’t live your life comfortably walking on eggshells and assuming someone nearby may have an issue with food or whatever the case may be.

      We’re humans who have a great ability to adapt and communicate with each other. Respect my ability to self soothe.

      I have ED and it makes me scream when people put in kid gloves about food things.

      I had people say not to speak of my parents because what if a nearby person is an orphan or was abused by their dad, so never speak about how you’re visiting your dad…no. Just no.

    9. LilySparrow*

      I get very annoyed by the overuse and dilution of the word “triggered” in place of “offended” or “upset.” If someone is annoyed, bothered, upset, or feels excluded by overhearing a topic that’s personally sensitive to them, that is not the same thing as being triggered.

      When a trauma survivor encounters a trigger, they have intense, realistic flashbacks to a specific moment. It is an event over which they have no control at the time, and renders them temporarily unable to function normally or advocate for themselves. Sometimes they are unable to even communicate what’s happening until it’s over.
      Triggers are also intensely personal and it would be impossible to purge an ordinary workplace of anything that could accidentally trigger someone – because that could be literally anything. And for a workplace to disclose that someone is a trauma survivor, or require the survivor to disclose all the personal triggers that they know would be a huge violation of privacy.

      “Don’t assume everyone is exactly like you” and “don’t be a jerk” are such basic levels of courtesy, they really don’t need such a granular level of dissection.

      TL:dr – if someone is annoyed at being wished Happy Birthday because they don’t like their birthday (for example) that is not being “triggered.” They are not rendered helpless. They don’t need other people to protect them from this non-event. Adults can speak up for themselves and say some perfectly normal phrase like, “I don’t really celebrate my birthday, thanks.”

    10. Maya Elena*

      Examine your own behavior according to your own moral precepts – am I honest, honorable, congruent? And if you pass, keep doing what you were doing and having normal conversations with normal people. Don’t try to be offensive, don’t self-police. Reasonable people think this whole thing is ridiculous and will be glad to have a fellow reasonable to talk to. Unreasonable ones are just louder.

  18. Jack be Nimble*

    Any advice on when and how to give notice when you’re leaving for grad school?

    I’m planning a career change, for which I’ll need to attend grad school. The program I want to attend is full-time and begins in June. I missed the 2019 application deadline (it was last October), so I’m planning to apply for June 2020 this fall. I’m obviously not planning to give notice now, but when should I? I may need to use my current colleagues or supervisors as references, which complicates matters somewhat!

    For what it’s worth, my manager will be supportive, and “left to go to grad school” is pretty common both in my industry and my company.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I wouldn’t give notice until you have the acceptance in hand and have officially deposited/decided to go. You can still use them as references, and then it won’t be too much of a shock when you do give notice (especially since this sounds like it’s something that happens normally). Plus you’ll still be able to give plenty of notice if you find out in June/July for an August/September start.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I think you should treat it as though you were moving to a new job and give them whatever notice is standard for your industry. I know that it feels a little off to do that when you know for months in advance that you’ll be leaving but unless you can afford to be without pay from the time that you hand in your notice to the time that you start at grad school then I wouldn’t do it. There are many, many companies that would march you out on the spot so I would rather be safe than sorry in this situation.

    3. Snark*

      I would give notice that you’re leaving when you’ve been accepted or have been given reason to believe (by an advisor or coordinator) that an acceptance is absolutely forthcoming. But I think you can be clear that your long-term plan is to apply for grad school for a June 2020 start date, so that’s a factor in their long-term planning.

    4. anon for this*

      I’m an American married to a Brit currently living in the UK. He’s working (I’m a student, although I’m just working on my dissertation and not wedded to the area) but is also really fed up with his job, and we’re thinking of moving to the US. He’s a teacher–they don’t have a good US equivalent for his exact job, but high school or community college would probably be the best fit for him in the US. We’re not committed to moving, but does anyone have any suggestions for resources I could give him about teaching and education job hunting in the US?

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I’m going to split the difference here — you don’t need to give notice as soon as you know you’re going, but I would also not wait and give just two weeks, depending on the situation. I had someone take on new opportunities and spent a lot of time re-working roles and responsibilities and things over one summer and then in August she gave two weeks’ notice to go to grad school. I would really have rather not spent all that time on future planning, since she already knew it wasn’t going to be relevant! She could have been confident we wouldn’t kick her out with an extended notice period, and just getting two weeks left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

    6. Lily*

      I did not give notice until I had received acceptances, and used previous professors and supervisors as references. If I had needed or could have used a coworker reference, there were two people who I had known since college and happened to work at the same large firm as me, and could have use them as I trusted them 10000%. I didn’t tell anyone until in May or so when my supervisor started talking about planning for next year, and I quietly let him know that he shouldn’t count me in. I didn’t tell anyone else until late June/early June, and I left in late July.

      1. Lily*

        I didn’t want to give two weeks because obviously everyone would knew I knew months before. I did only tell HR two weeks ago but informally let people who it would affect know a little earlier. One supervisor definitely got really angry with me – I didn’t work with him that much so it was fine, but it’s definitely a drawback to telling people earlier.

  19. A-nonny-nonny*

    Interview earlier this week for AlmostDreamJob. 2 needs for advice:

    1) Word has it that the role was created as a development opportunity for an internal candidate. While I did well and believe I am competitive with that individual, please help me get over this because this company strongly prefers internals.

    2) One interviewer “Taylor” said: “Do you have kids? *pause* I probably shouldn’t say that. *pointed look still expecting the answer*” While I know from AAM this is not an illegal question, this role is in a very male-dominated function that is a stepping stone to many other career options, and so also often a barrier to women’s advancement, especially mothers. This company prides itself on being a Best Place to Work with very good parental benefits. Taylor is not the hiring manager, but this is the kind of borderline stuff Taylor did all the time at OldCompany where we interacted. If I don’t get the job, would you tell HR? Not necessarily because of me personally (no kids but may in future), but because I wouldn’t want Taylor to discriminate or deter other women from this key function or other roles at this company, and also, the hiring manager, who hasn’t worked with Taylor long, has a reputation for being supportive of parents on their previous teams. Taylor would definitely retaliate or hold a grudge if they knew who snitched.

      1. ANon.*

        Not illegal to ask. Illegal to discriminate based on the answer. That’s why it’s generally advised to not ask in the first place.

      2. Not Maeby*

        Common misunderstanding. The question itself ISN’T illegal. Making your hiring/promoting/whatever choices based on whether or not a person has kids IS illegal.

        1. fposte*

          Even that’s questionable. Family status isn’t officially federally protected for non-federal employees (though it is in some states and maybe municipal jurisdictions); the problem here is the disparate impact on women. As long as there’s no disparate income–if they reject men with kids at the same rate as women with kids–there’s not likely to be a federal issue.

      3. KarenK*

        Others might correct me, but I think that the question itself is not illegal, but basing hiring decisions on the answer is illegal. Therefore, most people don’t ask it to avoid the appearance of discrimination.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      This is difficult because I want to suggest that you send a note to HR regardless but it really, really depends on if you’re prepared to see the job slip away from you. I might write something like this:

      Dear HR,

      It was a pleasure to speak with (name) on (date) and learn more about the position and (company). I hope that we can continue the conversation soon. However, I did want to highlight something that made me uncomfortable during the process. When I spoke to Taylor, he asked me whether I have any children and this has raised some concerns for me about whether or not this is a company that embraces diversity [not sure about this bit]. I hope that we can speak about this next time.

      Regards…

      I’m not 100% onboard with the script but I hope someone else can jump in and edit it.

      I do think it’s important to let them know though. The only reason these people are able to get away with this behaviour is because they hold the key to the job and people don’t want to rock the boat. I hope you find some way of letting them know, either before, after, or during the process.

      1. A-nonny-nonny*

        OP here. Would it be better to wait until I hear for sure I didn’t get the job? Or do you think is it better to alert them while still in process, understanding it may jeopardize my candidacy?

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I’d probably wait until the hiring decision is made.

          If you don’t get the job, then it can be a quick FYI to HR.

          If you do, then perhaps it’s part of a longer discussion so that you make sure that the hiring/working culture doesn’t discriminate due to family status.

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          That’s really difficult because I think if you wait and then tell them, it comes across as sour lemons; but if you tell them now, it comes with the risk of losing the opportunity.

          If it was me, I would tell them now. HOWEVER, I also always have a liveable income from teaching English online so I can take my time with finding jobs and taking stands against stupid questions like above.

          I would choose whichever one you’re most comfortable with. Sorry that’s not much help, but not knowing your circumstances makes it harder to give a more solid answer.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          There’s good arguments for doing it now (while it’s fresh and to get ahead of any specific negative feedback Taylor may give, depending on how you responded in the moment), or waiting until after so it’s more like feedback about the interview process separate from the hiring decision. There’s no reason I can think of for Taylor to ask the question during an interview UNLESS Taylor has an anti-parent agenda – the “probably shouldn’t ask” part is the give-away.

          Since you know that the HM is supportive of parents (and thus would probably discount any feedback from Taylor tinged by Taylor’s unnecessary interest in your family status), it might be better to wait.

  20. Cimorene*

    Does anyone have recommendations for jobs that are not detail-oriented? I’ve been thinking about this a lot since the question about the legal person who missed a lot of details, and realizing that while I’m okay at them details are not my strong suit. But are there any types of jobs out there that don’t involve being detail-oriented?

    1. amcb13*

      I think most jobs will require attention to SOME kind of detail, but the details in question may be really different from job to job, or people who excel may do so by paying attention to different types of detail. For example, I have a hard time with formatting details, like designing external documents with fonts and spacing and colors that are consistent, but I am great at setting up documents that help my students to complete their work successfully (breaking an assignment down into pieces that build on one another, writing instructions that they will actually read and be able to follow, etc.) Both involve a lot of attention to detail but the details in question serve different purposes and require different skillsets.

      1. Rainy days*

        Are you good with relationships? I’ve noticed that people who have jobs interfacing with people a lot can really build on that strength while leaving the detail-oriented work to others. Community outreach, working with kids and families in non-school programming, etc.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Nice catch on this point.
          I’d also throw out for consideration maybe the subject matters. I can catch and retain a lot of details about plants. But when it comes to cars I can’t retain one stinkin’ thing. I like plants. I don’t care about cars.

          Maybe law is the wrong kind of detail for you. Or maybe the way you think about it or were taught about it is unhelpful. I find I can remember more about law if I know the story that caused the law to come into existence. Ask me to remember a bunch of traffic laws in sequential order, naw, that ain’t happening. What’s happening here with me? It’s the people angle. The story of the people involved in the event that caused a law to come into being.

          You may just need to find your inroad to understanding your field better. Or you may have natural abilities elsewhere and that is where you should go.

      2. Cherries Jubilee*

        I agree with amcb13, different jobs require different attention to detail. Like, I won’t notice/don’t understand clothes but if a otherwise good book has typos it completely wrecks havoc on my brain.

      3. Washi*

        Yeah, at a certain point, paying attention to detail = doing a job correctly and carefully

        But as amcb13 says, different people are better at noticing different details. So what kind of detailed stuff is the hardest for you? Are you better at something once you’ve done it a few times, or do you need a lot of variation because getting bored causes you to miss details? Do you prefer following directions or improvising? Do you prefer written or verbal communication?

        I think a lot of it is just which jobs allow you to work with your brain’s natural tendencies rather than against them.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You want something were errors aren’t a big deal here and there. Someone who has either a proof reader prior to being sent out or something like that.

      Mostly stay away from data or finance related jobs is my advice. There is a lot of jobs that give you a chance to catch errors before their do any harm.

    3. Lost*

      Something in customer service? Seems like a lot of those jobs deal with the same general situations and procedures over and over again and aren’t super detailed.

      Or something in counseling, instructing, training, etc. (like a financial aid counselor at a college or a personal trainer at a gym)? So something where you need to be knowledgeable so you can present information or assist people face-to-face, but not look at paperwork type stuff as much?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Noooooooooo *flails*
        Every customer service job I’ve had or hired for needs details. You need to be able to find out the problems that may be buried.

        I’m screaming because this is what I’ve hired for the most and seen people fail the fastest at when they aren’t details people. Constant errors in orders, angry customers that you can’t find the issue and fix it, epic nightmares.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, financial aid counselors need to be detail-oriented since they’re dealing with numbers, and they oftentimes assist students with filling out paperwork for loans and grants. So that wouldn’t be a good career choice for the OP at all.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Just a general question. What are you doing to help yourself with remembering details? I check things twice. I have an entire folder of charts I have made to remember details. I don’t consider myself a detail person. I force myself to pay attention to details. Yet, I had one boss who insisted I was a detail person.

      I think most people stumble over details every so often.

  21. Need a Beach*

    For those of you who are the last person in line at work (meaning persons A, B, and C all are necessary to work on a project, but you’re person D and thus the end product always falls to you):

    Tell me success stories about holding people earlier in the pipeline accountable for delays in a way that doesn’t fall on your shoulders. I am always having to make up the difference from my own time allotment when earlier people slack off or drop the ball, and it’s not sustainable. The product cannot be practically, legally, or safely finished without my part, so it seems like there’s no way out, other than rushing and cutting corners in order to make up previous stakeholders’ mistakes. When the higher ups basically say “this is the due date, figure it out” how do you get the responsibility to shift to where it belongs?

    1. Snark*

      I mean, I think you need to communicate with your bosses every time that happens and throw people under the bus if necessary. “Boss, in order to do a full review of the llama herding report, I need at least 16 working hours, and as of now, I haven’t received it from Jane. I gather Fergus did not submit it to her until late yesterday. I will expedite as much as I can, but what should my prority be?” “Boss, just for your awareness, I did not receive the llama herding report until just before COB on Thursday, and it’s due at COB today. I will not be able to review the entire document by then, so do you have any guidance?”

      I can’t guarantee their attitude won’t be “figure it out” but you need documented correspondence showing that you had your eye on the ball, in case this ever comes out in a performance review or you get put on a PIP.”

      1. Snark*

        And if they’re like, “figure it out,” make it harder for them to dismiss the issue! “Ok! So, my two options here are a) not complete my input but get as far as I can or b) complete it in a very rushed fashion which will unavoidably include errors and inaccuracies since I don’t have time for QA/QC. Or we could extend the deadline. Can you weigh in on what you’d prefer to see happen?”

        1. Sammie*

          Oh I wish I’d had you whispering in my ear when I was in exactly this position in an old job. I actually liked my boss but he did not want to hear ‘problems’. I was regularly in this OP’s situation and I never had a come back for ‘figure it out’. Until now.

    2. Anonymous today*

      I become the bane of everyone’s existence about a day before delivery becomes impossible. I start copying everyone all the way up the chain to make it very, very clear that if I haven’t received what I need by X, the deadline will not be met. And I repeat that until the necessary people get involved to get the thing done. In more functional environments, that shouldn’t be necessary, but if the higher ups default to making you eat the lost time, then making that extremely unpleasant for them can help.

    3. Jimming*

      There should be project managers in charge of keeping people on task and managing unexpected barriers and delays. That shouldn’t fall to you since you are involved in the last step of the project, not managing it from start to finish. It sounds like your company could use a good PM.

    4. Quinalla*

      Who is managing the overall process? Is there a project manager you can say this is minimum time I need to get my work done and get the project manager to push on the other people in the process and on the bosses on this. How is the schedule created? Do you all sit down and figure out how much time for each piece and then a due date is set or what? Someone has to hold those prior to you accountable and unless you are managing the whole process, you don’t have standing to do that.

      If no one is managing the whole process, maybe you offer to become that manager? Is that even feasible?

      I’m curious to get a little more info, my job always involves a lot of different people with some dependent and some independent work and all of it culminating in a final project and without a project manager holding everyone accountable and pushing back on due dates when needed it would be a nightmare!

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      You need a very public project chart that shows where the project sits, how long it’s been there, and how much time is needed to complete it. Color it green, yellow and red. Put names on it. When somebody gets into yellow territory ask them when they intend to have their part complete and attach the chart that shows they are the problem. When it turns red bug the hold up and your boss and/or their boss.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      I’m last in line at work! I don’t have a client-facing role so YMMV but I have a success story from this morning.

      This morning I had to present key 2019 forecast figures to the Board, but they were still making changes to the inputs EOD yesterday. So I made my presentation starting with a slide in the PowerPoint that stated “These figures include data as it was presented yesterday at 5.00 pm, when the model was run. The following changes were not included as they were received out of time and/or form: […]”. Then I made a huge point of showing all the work that goes into preparing my part and why I couldn’t wait until everything was included. This is important: I had a lot of backup from both my boss and grandboss (himself a Director).

      So they run through what were the things that weren’t included, and started discussing with the different responsible parties as to why. At the end of the meeting it was agreed that we will set a hard deadline, and that I will not be moving it. I will be working with the information that I have, when I have it. The delays in processes A B and C are to be handled by the people in charge of those areas. It’s not my job to pick up their slack, but it is my job to inform of any issues preventing me from doing my work.

      General notes:
      You want to involve the higher ups as soon as there are delays in the chain that you are aware of. Keep them posted and aware, escalate, escalate, escalate. You need them to see these delays. You can see in the open thread from about 2 weeks ago a post from me complaining about someone who never sends me his data. I have a success story there too: he finally did send it, with a retroactive check for all the months he had missed. This was possible because I have been a pain in the ass of the higher ups, copying them in all of my follow-ups.

      Now, if they ask me “do you think you’ll have the presentation by Wednesday?” I’ll no longer make excuses, I’ll jump straight to “I don’t think so because Jane won’t have her part until Tuesday” – let them deal with Jane themselves.

      For people who work with Project Managers, use them!

    7. montecristo1985*

      I’m currently dealing with this by being the squeaky wheel. As in eventually it is hopefully more annoying to put up with me constantly haranguing everyone and their bosses, so they just do the work on time. We shall see if it works.

    9. Piano Girl*

      It was my responsibility to prepare a report every month based on the houses we sold (I worked for a real estate developer). In order to do my report, I needed to have copies of all the home closings by the first of the following month. After a few months of missing a closing or making some other mistake, I asked to be included in the weekly closing list for all the developments. I offered to take on aspects of the process that would speed it along, and generally made a pest of myself until I verified that I had all the information I needed. By starting the process as soon as the previous month was closed, and spreading it out over the course of a few weeks, I was able to deliver my report on time.

    10. Gumby*

      Oh, memories.

      In my case higher ups were well aware that the 2 weeks my team had stated they needed to complete our part had been whittled down to about 4 days. On a regular basis. If we found a major problem in those 3 days they might (*might*) move the deadline. Otherwise we just did the best we could. It was software QA so not having time to fully do the job meant that more bugs got through to the public which… did not seem to bother people the way it did me.

      The best I could do most of the time was make sure we looked at the most important parts first and protect my team from “why didn’t you catch this?” I raised visibility with constantly reporting on the status (“3 days late getting it to us, meantime we started testing the incomplete version and have found the following problems”) but there really wasn’t anything else I ever figured out to do. It was about 50% why I wanted out of that type of job.

  22. Murphy*

    I’m having issues with my work (tldr my boss and others are basically not including or informing me about decisions related to the things I manage). Though I’ve spoken with my boss about it several times, he either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care. My husband thinks I should talk to someone else, like HR or another manager. I said I don’t think it’s an HR issue and I feel like there isn’t anyone else to speak to. The head of our office just retired and the #2 in our office was promoted to #1. There is no #2 (this position would be my grandboss). I think it’s inappropriate to talk to someone else at my boss’s level about issues with my boss, since it’s not their business. And the recently promoted head of our office isn’t someone that I find to be approachable. I think he’d consider this issue far beneath him and wouldn’t be of any help. Any suggestions?

    1. Susie Q*

      I would try meeting with your boss and ask him how he wants you to handle your responsibilities without this information. I would try saying something like “In the past, I needed this information to make this decision. However, there are cases where I am not receiving this information so I’m unable to make this decision. How would you like me to proceed?”.

      I would not go to HR. I would check with your boss to see if the withholding of information is being done for specific reasons like he wants you to change your decision making workflow or its special information like PII that they can’t share with everyone anymore. If he’s just being a noncaring ass, it might be time to look for a new job.

      1. Murphy*

        Yeah, I agree about not going to HR, but talking to my boss clearly isn’t working and I don’t know what else to do.

    2. Coffee Bean*

      How have you talked to your boss about it? Have you explicitly spelled out how this is impacting your day to day and what then can’t get done because you are too busy trying to figure out what has changed?

      I would use a script like:
      “Without being in the loop about changes that get made to X, I am unable to do Y (or if you are able but it doubles the amount of time spell that out). I see a few solutions to this. We could have a weekly one-on-one where we review any decisions, like ABC, that have been made throughout the week. Or you can cc me on emails for anything related to what I manage, not for me to chime in, but as an FYI.”

      1. Murphy*

        It’s more that I don’t have enough work to do, and then I’m being left out of the work that is happening in X and Y projects, not invited to meetings, not informed about changes, and then barely kept in the loop, even though I’m supposed to be managing X and Y . So I’ll go to a meeting about a Y project and find that it wasn’t the first meeting, or we’ll be going over a proposal that Z team sent out to everyone but me and Z team doesn’t even do Y, so I don’t understand why they’re running things.

        My only solution is for them to actually invite me to meetings and keep me informed on decisions if they’re above my pay grade, which I’ve asked for.

        1. Coffee Bean*

          Oh man, yeah that is hard.

          So after knowing more, I think you have two options, both will involve talking to your boss about what she thinks your job is.

          I am thinking the talk with your boss will be along the lines of: “I was hired to do X and Y projects, as of right now I am not currently focused on those. I would like to make sure that I spend the majority of my time doing those projects I was hired for. Do you, agree that is where I should be spending my time?”

          1. She says “yes, you should be spending your time on X and Y projects.”
          If you want that work, then you may need to be a bit more assertive and just insert yourself into it. She has said you are supposed to be managing X and Y projects, so go to your boss with more ideas and input on what you would like to do/change/see out of those projects. If you are near your boss and overhear conversations that are happening that pertain to X and Y literally stand up and go be apart of that conversation.

          2. She says “No, you should be focused on A and B”
          Then you can take a bit to think about if A and B projects interest you. If so great, you have work that interests you. If not, then you are able to push back and say something like “I was hired for X and Y, and I don’t want to stray too far from projects like that as it was a big reason why I accepted this position”.

          If you have been in the role a while then for any “accepted this position”, you could say “continue to be excited about work” or something along those lines (maybe instead changing the script to be about future goals even).

        2. Gumby*

          Is there someone else that can invite you to the meetings? Like if you make it more widely known that you do work on X and Y could you convince other people to include you or speak up at least in those meetings to say “hey, shouldn’t Murphy be here?”

          I definitely depend *a lot* on one particular person in my office – who is not my manager – to say “you should go talk to Gumby about this.” Weekly if not daily. (Then again, my manager is in a different department and extremely hands off about my work. Extremely. I kind of suspect he has only the vaguest idea of what I do. So it’s a different situation all around.)

  23. Am I being rude?*

    I have 2 people at a partnering company that regularly send me cryptic, incomplete sentences with customer service inquiries without any information to identify which order or customer they’re talking about. I can normally figure it out since we’re still a small company, but I’m so fed up that I’ve started (politely) playing dumb, asking for the client name or order number. I think this is okay, but I’m worried I’m actually coming across as rude. This is in email, for what it’s worth. What do you all think?

    1. Havarti*

      It’s not rude to write back things like “Hi, I’m happy to help! Please let me know the name of the client and the order number so I can look into it. Thanks!” I always try to cultivate an appearance of being cheerful but slightly stupid in order to do my job with the minimum amount of fuss.

      1. Murphy*

        I get stuff like this all the time. This is pretty much my approach too. I look at it like a “Help me help you by giving me all the information to avoid confusion.”

    2. Anonysand*

      Honestly, I don’t think you’re being rude at all. If it were me, I would send both of them an email that says something along the lines of “Unfortunately I can’t process inquiries unless they include details A, B, and C. Please send me that information in addition to the request and I will process accordingly. Thanks!”

    3. wait wait don't freeze me*

      There’s a reason those lists go around all the time of “translating” business speak into common words. You are not being rude to say “hi, Carl, can you please send me the client’s name and order number so I can look them up in the system”, even though both you AND Carl know that what you’re really saying is “ffs just give me the information the first time”.

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I think for the most part that as long as you are cheerful and polite about it, you should be good.

      I toooootally get the inclination to play dumb, I’ve certainly had moments where I’m like “I COULD figure out what you’re referring to, but why should I waste my time filling in for your half-assery?” Assuming you’re not being annoyingly pedantic about it, including a “Could you confirm the order you’re referring to? I want to make sure I’m looking at the right thing for you. Thanks!” will cover any hint of rudeness that might be perceived.

      1. Llellayena*

        Oh this most of my job while a building is under construction!
        Contractor: can we use product X instead of the Y in your drawings?
        Me: does product X meet the performance requirements we list in the 200 page book we provided you? (Since you’re required by contract to provide the comparison)
        Contractor: uhh…..
        My boss: just look it up so we don’t hold everything up.

    5. Snark*

      I don’t think it’s rude at all. I’d argue for being a little more crisp and prescriptive, actually!

      “Hi Dweezil,

      Without the order number and client name, it’s not clear what this is about. Can you supply that information with inquiries you refer to me?

      Thanks!

      AIBR?”

    6. Temperance*

      That’s really weird. I would just ask for the client number or order number rather than play detective. It’s either a weird power play or they aren’t great at email.

    7. Asenath*

      Just politely ask for the missing information. I get so, so many incomplete requests that sometimes I find it a challenge to remain polite, but really, I can’t do my job without essential information.

    8. Marthooh*

      First, stop trying to figure out their cryptic messages on your own. Every time someone sends an incomplete message, ask for the missing information: “Please send me the order number and the customer’s name.” That’s a perfectly polite request, or use Havarti’s wording. Do it every time they forget so they get in the habit and you don’t all have to go through this nonsense.

    9. ISuckAtUserNames*

      Since it sounds like it’s the same two people who repeatedly do this, it’s not rude at all to go back and ask for more details.

      For people who are generally good about it but forgot, I’ll do a little more legwork, but I’ve gotten in the habit of responding to people who don’t provide basic customer info rather than trying to figure it out myself because a) ain’t nobody got time for that all day, every day b) it usually only takes a couple times before people get better about it.

      The worst are people who say “I have a client who has this issue!” and they screen shot the smallest possible area around the error, so I have no chance to figure out which client, what they were doing when they got the error, etc. Training people on how to submit good service & support tickets gets tiring after awhile, but less so than having to figure it out every time or go back and forth 20 times to pull the info out bit by bit.

  24. Did you read the email?*

    Hello everyone! I’ve been having a problem lately with my supervisor not fully reading my emails and then trying to resolve them, and I’m not sure what to do. The full story is that I work in higher education in a student facing role. Our director is a little over a year into their position, and this is their first supervisory role. There are times where a student situation comes up that is complicated enough that I need my director’s input on to resolve. They have requested that these things come to them in email as much as possible, as opposed to walking into their office to ask questions. Fair enough, as I understand they have a lot on their plate! I try to keep these emails as clear and concise as possible, but sometimes the relevant info I need to include exceeds a few sentences. I don’t think my emails are the problem, because my supervisor has expressed that I have excellent written communication skills. What I’m finding is that I will send the email, and my supervisor will either try to answer the question without fully reading the email (so they miss an important detail that makes their answer not fit the situation or they answer the wrong question altogether) or they will come to me in person which usually results in me explaining everything I put in the email in person. So an example of what’s happening is like this:

    Me (via email): “Gregory emailed me today saying that he was dropped from all of his classes, but he paid his tuition bill on time. He has already talked to Department X and they weren’t able to help. Can you take a look at his file and tell me if I’m missing something?”

    My director (via email): “Did he pay his tuition bill on time? He needs to talk to Department X”

    Or

    My director (in person): “So what’s going on with Gregory?”

    Again, I understand that directors have very busy schedules and they receive a lot of email. But my director is the one requesting that I send these situations via email. It’s a bit frustrating since I almost always end up explaining what’s going on multiple times before the situation gets resolved. One time, there was so much back and forth between me and my boss that they student ended up resolving their own situation in the time it took me to get them an answer (which I feel like doesn’t reflect well on me or our office)! I’m also worried that they won’t pick up on subtle hints, like me saying “as I said in the email…” Suggestions for how to approach this with them? They do kind of have a bit of an ego when it comes to receiving feedback that processes they’ve implemented are not quite working.

    1. Susie Q*

      I would go to your director and say “How would you like me to email information to you in the future about problems? In the past, I’ve done XYZ and I’m worried I am not effectively communicating all the important information that you need to know. I want to make sure that I am communicating in a way that meets your needs.”

      1. Did you read the email?*

        I worry that if I use your script and I don’t bring up that they are asking me things I’ve already communicated (unless that’s what you were referring to in the “I’ve done XYZ” part) that they are just going to tell me that my written communication is good (which is feedback I’ve already gotten from them). I think that’s where my confusion is, I’m getting excellent feedback on my written communication skills from my supervisor, yet they still seem to be missing details that I communicate in the emails. I guess how to I add to that script “it seems like you are not reading my emails based on your follow up questions” in a gentle way?

        1. valentine*

          Your supervisor prefers in-person. I can’t think why they’re asking for one thing and doing another. This would drive me up the wall.

    2. IL JimP*

      maybe try bullet points instead of sentences and put the ask first followed by saying the details are below

      1. Did you read the email?*

        So using the example I gave above, do you think something like this would be more effective?

        “Gregory was dropped from his classes, and I’m not sure why. Can you look at his file to see if there’s something I’m missing? I’ve already ruled out the following:
        1) Gregory paid his tuition bill on time
        2) Gregory contacted department X and they could not identify the problem”

        2. Master Bean Counter*

          I think bullets point and being even more succinct. I just read Gregory three times and I’m wondering why? This is not what I should be wondering.

          Here’s where I’d go with it:
          -Gregory got dropped from all of his classes
          -Tuition was paid in full ad on time
          -X department can’t see a problem
          Please review his file for problems and advise

          If he wants more detail he will ask.

          1. Did you read the email?*

            Tbh, I just typed that quickly. I could have typed “he” instead of the name again. I’ll admit that one is on me :)

            2. As Close As Breakfast*

              All bullet points like this would be the way I would go. It’s the easiest to scan, which is what it sounds like your boss is doing.

              For example, I literally didn’t get that Gregory had been dropped from all of his classes until I read the list Master Bean Counter gave. Up until that moment I’d been reading it as Gregory had dropped all of his classes. Close… but WAY different!

      2. irene adler*

        Yes!
        I’m not gonna read the email contents unless I understand- at the start- why I’m reading it. I just don’t have the patience.

        And paragraphs- especially large ones- not even gonna try and read them. Bullet points are SO much easier!

        1. Did you read the email?*

          I can try this, but I’m going to be honest I’m still skeptical that it’s going to work. Because I can see my boss stopping after reading “Gregory was dropped from his classes” and asking me if I did the two things I’ve already listed that I did (as these are the next logical questions we ask in a situation like this). Or worse, seeing that I emailed him about Gregory and then coming to ask me about Gregory. Because that’s what they do right now. I’ll give it a try, because I can see how it has potential to work.

          1. Lala*

            If that’s the case, it might be worth one semi-snarky “As per the email I just sent, Greg did pay his tuition on time and has already contacted department X, which did not resolve the issue. What should the next step be?”

            It sounds like your boss is assuming you’re not checking on these things before you run them by him; it might be worth having a talk explaining to him that if you’re emailing him about something like this, he should trust that you’ve already checked the routine stuff.

          2. Tara S.*

            You could try the old journalism method: most important info first, second most important info second, etc. (called the inverted pyramid style, used so that if you were calling or sending over the wire, you had the best chance of getting important stuff communicated before the line got cut.)

            For you, the ask is the most important, the action item. This should be brief and on it’s own line. Then any details in a separate paragraph, bulleted if at all possible. I like your example from above for bullets, maybe just move the ask “Could you look into our student Gregory Smith’s file for me?” into a line by itself. Also, if you can be any more specific with the ask (“could you give me Greg’s file so I can look into this”, etc.), that’s preferable (though not always possible).

            Also….sometimes people are just like this. It’s annoying, and inefficient, but sometimes people just won’t slow down and you don’t have the authority to insist they do. It could definitely be worth it to sit down with your boss about how you feel like you could be doing better on email for them, cite the examples where it seemed like they didn’t pick up on the details before responding, and ask if there’s anything you could be doing. It might nudge them to read more carefully, it might do nothing, but it could be worth asking.

          3. Weegie*

            Try starting with what you want your director to do:

            ‘Can you please look at Gregory’s file to identify why he was dropped from his classes?
            1) He paid his tuition bill on time
            2) He contacted department X and they could not identify the problem’

            You might also try establishing with your director a keyword or phrase that you will use to preface such email requests, indicating that you’ve already taken all initial steps and now need their help. Something like ‘Intervention Request’, or words to that effect?

            1. Alianora*

              Yep, starting with the action items is the most effective way I’ve found to get people to do what you need them to do. These other suggestions that start with “Gregory was dropped from his classes” would be good if the director was reading the whole email. But since they aren’t, the words that they do read need to really count.

          4. Camellia*

            Change the emphasis:

            “Gregory paid his tuition on time and was STILL dropped from his classes. NO help from Department X. How do we fix this?”

            I also use attention-getters like CAPS, as shown above, and highlighting. In this example I would probably highlight the ‘NO help’ sentence for good measure.

        2. Delphine*

          That’s a terrible way to work. Bullet points might be easier, but it doesn’t take much more energy to read a paragraph. Not having the patience isn’t a good excuse for making other people’s work more difficult.

    3. M*

      Strong second for IL JimP’s suggestion of dotpoints, and will also add:

      I suspect this will be less frustrating if you take a bit of time to put yourself in their shoes in a more granular sense. You’ve said they’re really busy – and it’s likely if they’re a student services director that they’re getting requests like yours from a large number of people, so even if you’re sending only a couple of requests, it can really, really quickly turn into a flood of questions. As a result: people in those kind of roles often *do* have to triage a lot – i.e. not dwell on unpicking complicated questions, start with the easy answers if there might be any easy answers, move on to the things they know are big and hard problems.

      So, I’d structure your emails to meet that. The dotpoint draft you suggested in reply to IL JimP is a great start, but I’d also think about ways you can make your emails *super* formulaic – the same information in the same spots every time. e.g. if you regularly have situations involving dropped classes, have a proforma email ready to go checking off all the usual questions. Also, always give a really clear action you’re looking for from them, and be explicit (“tell me if I’m missing something” is really vague, and primes them to approach a reply from the assumption that you might be missing an obvious checklist item). So, for example:

      “Gregory was dropped from his classes, and I’ve been unable to solve the problem. We’ve ruled out the following possible solutions:
      1) Gregory paid his tuition bill on time
      2) Gregory contacted department X and they could not identify the problem
      There’s nothing left that I can try, so I’m escalating this to you: can you take a look at his file and [if there’s specific system admin powers they have that you don’t, list the ones you want them to try here, otherwise go with something more like “see if there are any non-standard options you can think of”].”

      In other words: dot-point what you’ve done, keep it formulaic so that they can easily see that you’ve done all the usual things, and be very, very explicit about what you’re asking for.

      People shy away from this instinctively because it feels really impersonal/borderline rude, but genuinely: with a busy manager receiving large volumes of minor tasks from staff, it’s the thing they need from you.

    4. Workerbee*

      I’ve also used the point/number method with persons whom I know check out after the first 12 words of an email. Fortunately, those people seem to also not worry about proper salutations or even “Hello,” so I skip over those.

      Lately I’ve begun bolding sections as well and bullet pointing even if there’s only a single line:

      —
      (Bolded word) Issue:
      (bullet point) Gregory was dropped from his classes.

      (Bolded) Details:
      (bullet point) Gregory paid his tuition bill on time
      (bullet point) Gregory contacted department X and they could not identify the problem

      (Bolded) What I need from you:
      (bullet point) Can you look at his file today to see if there’s something I’m missing?

      —
      Mind you, sometimes there are just those people that need something told to them three exhaustive times before the lightbulb goes on.

      1. Did you read the email?*

        I feel like this one might have some potential to work. I think the next time I have to send one of these requests, I will try to follow this format!

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          I would also even tell him you noticed he doesn’t always have time to read your messages in detail so you’re trying THIS NEW FORMAT so he can see at a glance what you’ve already tried and your hoping this will save you both time. Like, shoe him the first email and say, “here’s the name, here’s the problem, here’s what I’ve already tried, and here’s where I’m asking you to do a specific thing.”

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I wouldn’t worry about it if your boss comes to you ala

      “My director (in person): “So what’s going on with Gregory?””

      I’ll do this to my employees some times. Usually it’s when I think there’s more to the story, I think I will want more detail or have questions, or sometimes as an excuse to just to interact with my team.

      And yes, I’ve been guilty of jumping to the first example. It’s nothing that you’re doing wrong (although I will recommend the bullet point format) it’s just that I am either distracted while reading the email and only register the first bit. Again…not to much you can do about that.

      If you get in loop with them like your example where the student fixed their own problem. That’s the time that you need to have the face to face. Yes it sounds like they’ve requested stuff by email, but that sounds like it churned too long.

      1. June First*

        Ugh, my boss is like this. She has signed and approved contracts with her name misspelled, so it’s kind of a running joke.
        Bullet points work. Also, if your director is in the office, stop by or call and say, “Hey, I just sent you an email, hope you can help me find a solution…” It seems redundant, but if you are working on deadline that sometimes helps. It might also be more proactive than waiting for him to respond and eliminate back and forth while still using his preferred method (email).

        1. IL JimP*

          just make sure you don’t beat the email to their door :)

          That drives me batty when my team does that, give me at least a few secs to read your email before showing up

    6. Quinalla*

      I would not be concerned about him coming to talk to you instead of emailing back. That is his prerogative and it makes sense for him to read or start reading it and realize that he may need some back and forth and choose to deal with it in person. I think that is a non-issue.

      For him not reading the full email, I would ask if there is a better way to communicate because you noticed that he’s not always seeing all the relevant information (give a recent example). If he has no suggestions, I’d suggest bullet points and/or distilling information down or just coming to talk to him first if you are sure it will take awhile or maybe pinging him to see when he is free next and then chat? Bullet points will likely help if it is more than a few sentences and if there is a bunch of relevant info, distill it down and put further info at the end and refer to it in the distilled version.

    7. CaptainLaura*

      Is it possible that your supervisor is using email as a sort of placeholder reminder to discuss the issue with you when he has the time?

      I can understand not wanting to be interrupted by questions requiring research if he’s in the middle of another task. It’s annoying and extra work for you though, which is unfortunate.

    8. Nesprin*

      Sounds like email is the problem- any chance you can push back and chat when a complex scenario arises? How often does this sort of thing happen? if <1/mo I would call or stop by

      1. Did you read the email?*

        So I have done that before, but a lot of times I’ll start explaining what’s going on and my boss will say “can you email this to me and I’ll look into it?” I personally would prefer to just get the answer in person. Which then starts the cycle of not reading the email thoroughly.

        1. valentine*

          Are you concise in person? Would they still ask for email if you said, “Can you look at Gregory’s file? The system unenrolled him and X don’t know why”?

    9. Argh!*

      Bullet points for details, or a timeline, & highlighting for the verb.

      Gregory’s problem
      1/3 — Paid Bill
      1/20 — Received notice his classes were dropped
      1/22 — Talked to XYZ Department
      1/24 — Emailed me
      1/25 — I don’t see a problem in his file
      [Did I miss something in his file?]

      Another option is Outlook stalking your boss, then emailing between meetings & catching them at their desk a few minutes after the email with a question that draws attention to it, like “Oh, I forgot to add to my email about Gregory — if he can’t stay in Econ 345 he won’t be able to graduate on time.”

  25. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    I posted in the open thread a few weeks ago wondering if there was a way to reply to constructive criticism without sounding dismissive and/or rude. fposte among others gave me good advice (thank you!)

    I have a very long rambly update because things took an unexpected turn yesterday (in a good way!)

    I tend to think I have my brain weasels under pretty good control and that I’m reasonably realistic about my strengths and weaknesses. It turns out I might have a little way to go…

    TL;DR because brevity isn’t my strong suit: I thought something at work was a serious performance issue but it was mostly an anxiety and guilt spiral.

    Before Christmas, I had an “end-of-project” feedback session with my project manager and while he was very positive, he also brought up the fact that it had happened several times that I’d not been at the client site and hadn’t answered my phone, or been logged in to our IM. It was completely valid feedback, and I didn’t say much in the meeting other than that I agreed and knew it was a problem and would work on it. I didn’t want to make excuses in the meeting, as I really feel I’d been unprofessional. You know in reality shows like Top Model and MasterChef, when someone makes a mistake and then tries to argue with the criticism? It’s never a pretty picture. Right then, I didn’t want to seem petty or dismissive by excusing myself.

    The long explanation is that I have a tendency to shut myself away or go off the radar when I’m overwhelmed. I do it in my personal life as well. It’s a vicious exhaustion-avoidance-guilt cycle. I also genuinely need more time to recharge after intense periods than others (it’s like a social or deadline hangover). It’s gotten better since I started ADHD meds but I spent the entire fall doing work that’s been very draining for me.

    But I realize I can’t just disappear for days and not be in touch at all. I’ve gotten similar feedback before, but in more general terms: “please signal earlier if you can’t make a deadline”. Given this, I was totally prepared for a serious conversation with my boss about my ways of working and my professionalism.

    Yesterday, I had a “quarter summary” with my boss. Our bosses see the feedback entered into our system, so she was aware of this thing. I did the only grown up thing I could think of and brought it up as soon as possible and acknowledged what I saw as the seriousness of it, and a few tools I’ve come up with to prevent it.

    My boss looked somewhat perplexed. She asked me whether I thought the problem was that my project manager thought I was tw: negative self talk irresponsible and unprofessional. Yes, I said. Of course.

    My boss then, very gently, explained that wasn’t the case at all. My project managersimply didn’t understand what had been going on. He had no idea what had been happening, if I had been ok, and I’d not offered him any explanation.

    She then asked me if I realized it is totally fine for me to need more recharging time than most, work from home more, turn off my phone or log out of our chat system. It is not a problem, but I just need to loop any higher-ups in before. She suggested I bring it up at the start of every new project and explain that I probably will need more alone time than others. She knows I have ADD and suggested I mention this as well, just to give any managers a bit more context.

    She also mentioned that she (and many others) block off time in their calendars to be able to work undisturbed.

    I knew that. It’s just that it’s so ingrained in me that I’m tw:negative self talk “lazy” or not pulling my weight that what she saw as a completely normal thing became a huge failing in my mind. I do procrastinate and avoid stuff in an unhealthy way, but it usually spirals out of control when I realize I need a timeout, feel guilty about it, hide away at home, try to conceal it and feel even more guilty. I often feel so much less productive and efficient than all my other colleagues (hello imposter syndrome!) that anything I do that’s out of the ordinary must be bad.

    And here she was, telling me that not only is it ok for me to do it, she actively encouraged it.
    And she made sure to tell me several times that I’m doing REALLY well, that I’ve developed SO much over the last few months and that my performance is more than up to par. She also pointed out that I’d rated myself significantly lower in our evaluation tool than any of my feedback providers did.

    Long story short, I’ve been so anxious about all this and it turns out I misread the entire situation and didn’t give my bosses or coworkers the credit they deserve.

      1. fposte*

        It’s a trigger warning–some forums request advance warning on such stuff and obscure the relevant text.

      2. Tara S.*

        TW = trigger warning, or sometimes CW = content warning. Often used forewarn readers of sensitive or possibly traumatic subjects (e.g. tw: eating disorder, cw: abuse, etc.) so people can choose to opt out/not read.

      3. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Shoot, I forgot to edit that out. I posted a version of this on a site that requires trigger warnings in that particular way.

    2. fposte*

      I’m sorry you got into a spiral, but that is really great news! Is it worth saving your comment here someplace where you can check it in future if you start negatively assuming again?

    3. Lily Rowan*

      That sounds like a great meeting! It’s amazing how much communication can resolve, even when you think the “real issue” wouldn’t be fixed just by talking about it.

    4. Quinalla*

      That’s so great that your boss is being so actively supportive of you!

      And if you are up for suggestions, you might check out if you haven’t already The Highly Sensitive Person by Dr. Elaine Aron as you sound a lot like me with needing alone and recharge time especially when overwhelmed and this book really helped me put myself in perspective. If not relevant, feel free to ignore, but I hate to pass up an opportunity to share if it helps someone like it helped me.

  26. Mimmy*

    I am going to a conference this coming week and I have a serious case of Imposter Syndrome!!!

    I am pursuing ADA certification, so I’m attending the conference so I can complete the required credits to sit for the certification exam. From my (admittedly rudimentary) research, it seems a lot of people with this certification work at a higher level than I do currently. I think I have the potential to reach higher and I have a good foundational knowledge of the ADA, but this is all new territory for me, and I’m so scared to tell these attendees that I’m essentially a newbie!

    Tips and scripts would be really helpful.

    (P.S. That is, if this shutdown doesn’t screw up my flights!!!)

    1. Legal Rugby*

      Which conference? I do ADA work, and I just went to my first ATIXA conference, and by the end of the day I was convinced I knew nothing at all!

      1. Mimmy*

        It’s an ADA Coordinator conference that’s in Orlando on Monday and Tuesday. It’s put on by the Great Plains ADA Center.

    2. Me*

      Everyone starts some where. Most people loves sharing knowledge with those up and coming. None of us work or live forever so someone always needs to take our place. Anyone who doesn’t get that and is rude, well that’s because they are an inherent jerk. No reflection on you at all.

      If you have the ability to meet the requirements to sit for the exam, then you are qualified! If you need more experience or higher level work, than that would be the requirement.

      Go do the awesome things!

    3. Ranon*

      The end result of this certification is that you help educate people/ communicate about ADA things, correct? So likely the people at this conference are the sort of people who enjoy communicating with and educating others! If I had to venture a guess I’d expect you might have a much warmer/ enthusiastic reception than you might be comfortable with rather than colder than you would like!

      Own your newness, ask for help and advice, talk to people about how they got where they are- I bet most folks will be happy to talk your ear off.

  27. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

    (I will try to keep this as neutral as possible by substituting dinosaurs for political parties.)

    My work intersects with a sector of the government whose employees are at work, but not getting paid. This week was the first time I’d seen one of my favorite of these employees and while we were chatting the subject of the shutdown naturally came up.

    I expressed sympathy. He said, “It’s not your fault, unless you vote Allosaurus*.” Well… I do lean toward Allosaurus over Diplodocus. I wasn’t thinking and said, “I vote Allosaurus-it still isn’t my fault.” Then someone needed his attention and the matter didn’t escalate. I haven’t seen him since.

    I feel bad that it got awkward, but I also think it was not a great thing for him to say… but I also can appreciate that this is a very stressful time for him. I guess next time I see him, pretend like nothing ever happened?

    *And no, he did not say that with a twinkle in his eye.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        This.

        You brought up a highly politicized topic that affects him directly.

        He has Opinions about it. He’s entitled to them. You have different Opinions. You’re also entitled to them.

        That is democracy.

        If you don’t want to hear people’s political opinions, don’t bring them up.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I’d go with pretend nothing happened. I do this often enough, it’s easier if I like the person. If he mentions it again, just regroup and say, “You are among my favorite people here. I am sorry you are working with no pay. That is all I meant.”

    2. Youth*

      Ugh. Not a fan of political parties and therefore not a fan of assigning characteristics to people based on how they choose to vote.

      I think you’re safe to ignore this, but if he brings it up, you can say something like,”I apologize for even mentioning it earlier–I actually don’t want to discuss political views at work. I do hope things get better for you.” And yeah, that wasn’t a great comment for him to make at work, especially when he didn’t know your political views.

      1. Approval is optional*

        I don’t think it’s assigning characteristics based on voting decision; it’s more assuming if you vote for A then you support the philosophy behind the policy A is promulgating/the strategy A has put in place etc. And maybe it wasn’t a ‘great’ comment, but maybe he has a right to be not great right now. This is a man who isn’t being paid, but is still being expected to serve the public, because of certain actions by certain political parties/figures – politics is impacting his life and his work in a major way, so perhaps he has the right to have thoughts, and say things, about people who elected the party/person he believes is depriving him, and possibly his family, of money to buy food with, pay rent/mortgage with and so on.

        1. Youth*

          Eh, but people have their reasons for voting for things, and it’s not always because they agree with every decision of a particular party. That’s why I’m against political parties–they put things in packages that don’t always go well together. Maybe you agree with A but not B but this part of A is really going to affect you if it doesn’t go a certain way, so that’s what you go for. It’s frustrating to not have more flexible choices.

          I’ve also learned in the last few years that it’s a luxury to make voting decisions according only to the dictates of your conscience. Not everyone is free to do that, for various reasons.

          1. Approval is optional*

            Obviously it’s possible to not agree with everything a party stands for, but we don’t get to avoid any responsibility for B’s implementation if we voted for the party that stated B would happen, just because we don’t agree with B. We might be better off still because of A, or other people might be better off because of A, but if people are hurt by B, we can’t say ‘your pain is in no way my fault, because although I voted for B to happen (by voting for the party), I didn’t want it to’. Actions have good and bad consequences – our responsibility is the same no matter which ‘type’ it is. Whether our vote (or choice not to vote) is motivated by self interest or motivated by altruism, there will be negative consequences for someone – we need to accept our contribution to that. There is no choice that allows us to avoid responsibility for some ‘pain’.

            1. Youth*

              I understand why you feel that way, and maybe the best response for Captain Vegetable in the moment wouldn’t have been to say, “and it’s still not my fault,” but regardless, I don’t think that Captain Vegetable is morally obligated to discuss or defend their political views in the workplace.

              That doesn’t mean that the pain and frustration of being furloughed during the shutdown aren’t valid.

            2. Gazebo Slayer*

              Yeah, voting has consequences, and the voters are responsible for the outcome.

              And political views aren’t morally neutral – these are real life and death issues. Voting for someone who promises to institute abhorrent policies is not just a matter of personal taste; it makes you partially culpable when they are placed in a position of power where they can enact those policies.

          2. Lissa*

            Totally, I’d argue more people *don’t* agree with every piece of their party than the opposite – in my country there are 3 major parties, the USA there are only 2! So the only way to ever avoid being held responsible for anything terrible would be not to vote at all, which..obviously isn’t better.

      1. Asenath*

        I’ve never yet found a political party or leader I agree with 100%, so I vote for the least objectionable overall, knowing full well that they’ll do some things I strongly oppose, but might actually do a few things I agree with. So I don’t consider that I and the politician I vote for are a single entity.

        While I am not in the country under discussion, I have not hesitated to remove myself from unwanted political discussions by simply staying quiet, or saying something like “I don’t discuss politics at work”. Or ignoring a comment that might draw me into a political discussion.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          This. Politicians have very deep policy platforms, but most voters simply don’t have the bandwidth to handle that, and even the ones that do, are going to have a couple of issues that are Near and Dear to them that they consider a priority. Some people might even agree with 90% of the issues on Brontosaurus’s platform, but T-Rex offered free insulin for diabetics and they really, really don’t care if T-Rex also is eating babies as a midnight snack like the tabloid said, as long as T-Rex makes with the free insulin because their whole family is diabetic and not babies.

        2. JHunz*

          If a person you voted for has had a measurable negative effect on somebody you know, it’s probably not going to particularly help to tell them you cast your vote for X and Y and not for negative policy Z. Especially in the case where it sounds like OP would still vote for Allosaurus a second time.

          Not talking about politics at work is definitely the safest play, but it sounds like that was a pretty hard thing to avoid in this case.

    4. Labradoodle Daddy*

      But that’s what a vote is. You can’t avoid the consequences of that vote because they make you uncomfortable.

    5. Rahera*

      I think he was well within his rights to say it, and it’s easy to understand that this is a time when people might be blunt about factors that contribute to why they’re in this predicament. Eg how people voted.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I’m in favor of using dinosaur names for political parties in every discussion from now on.

    7. Quinalla*

      I would just let it lie unless he brings it up and then yeah, just say you prefer not to discuss politics at work and you still hope it gets better for him. I try really hard not to discuss politics at work myself, but I’ve broken that rule sometimes when I was really upset, etc. about something and just could not hold it in one more damn minute. But I did know my audience too, which he did not.

      Anyway, I’d move on and if someone says something like that in the future to try and not say which party your vote for at work. I think a response saying that you don’t support the shutdown and say that you’ve called/written/etc. your representatives (if you have) or if there is something else you’ve done to promote that would be a better way to go in the future on things like that. I dearly hope that all of us Allosaurus and Diplodocus and any other dino supporters and other voters who aren’t dino-affiliated who oppose the shutdown are contacting their reps to let them know!

    8. zora*

      I think this is a little industry specific, because I have lots of family and friends who work in various capacities for the government. And it’s just “not done” to bring up what parties people support when you work with the government. It’s understood that everyone has to do their jobs every year, regardless of whether their party is in charge or not.

      I agree with pretend it never happened, and I agree that it wasn’t great for him to bring it up in the first place. I don’t think it’s something to make a big deal about, though, I’d just try to ignore it and hope that takes care of it.

      But, if he brings this up again at any point, it might need to be a bigger conversation, unfortunately, because I do think he was inappropriate.

    1. Alfonzo Mango*

      My take is- we all do goofy things like that. It’s not necessary to run to BuzzFeed or other blogs like that to shout it from the rooftops, exposing your name and potential employer. I see it as a bad judgement call. Not the end of the world, but worth questioning.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I saw it as a funny mistake, especially when she doubled down on it being 18th February.

      However, I think it’s normal for people these days to post things like that to Twitter and it went viral. I think the problems are going to stem from the fact it went viral rather than anything else.

    3. Laura H.*

      In their defense, who doesn’t sometimes confuse dates?! Not that badly but… mental calendars are way easy to screw up and sometimes you don’t get that “oops I’m messy with my dates” until someone points it out!

      At least it was a month early rather than a month late…

    4. fposte*

      Yeah, I don’t think this was running to the media anymore than posting here is. She did the thing most of us do, which is tell the people you’re accustomed to telling when you did something dumb so that you can get a little humorous perspective. In her case it was Twitter.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      She didn’t run to the media though. She posted about it on her social accounts, it caught enough traction that media-types wanted an interview, which she gave. That’s the thing to remember about these stories that are initiated by something going viral. The post-er is usually being asked for interviews, not out there shopping their stories around.

      Now, most companies would probably prefer an employee talk to them first before talking to the media about something even this tangentially related to them, but she’s not an employee, and she’s young. Plus, this doesn’t show the company in any kind of negative light, so she probably isn’t thinking that far ahead. If she DOES get the internship, someone probably needs to tell her not to do interviews without the companies consent, but I don’t think she’s a generally attention-seeking, influencer-wannabe.

      That said, I do wish she hadn’t done the interview. I think the interview she did after it went viral probably brought it to the attention of the company more than the actual error did. The recruiter may or may not have communicated it happened otherwise. If I were hiring though, now I have to figure out if her candidacy is going to get more public focus than it should, and decide whether or not I’m going to have to justify my hiring decision either way. If I do hire her, is it to avoid a (probably minor) public backlash/negative publicity. If I don’t is it because of this mistake she made? It’s all open to speculation now on a wider forum than it would normally be.

      It’s all still pretty benign, but if this is your dream internship, in a very competitive company, this kind of publicity is not what you want them focused on in regards to your candidacy.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      I will disappointed if she doesn’t start out her interview with. “I’m so excited about this opportunity that I’ve been ready for a month.”

    2. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

      But if you work in an open office, I think your stress relief is going to make your coworkers even more stressed!

  30. The joys of remote work.*

    Resurrecting this from one of the comment threads earlier this week.

    I have a similar situation [to the AAM post] with my job, with the major plot twist that we live abroad for my wife’s job. When she was first send abroad, I assumed I would quit my job to follow; instead, it was so hard to fill my niche skill set that my company asked me (some might say begged) to stay on and work remotely. This set-up has suited both sides very well [on and off] for ten years.

    A new grand-boss started about four months ago, and their assumption is that I will be physically in the office a lot more. To give you an idea of scale, while our remote working arrangement provides for three paid trips a year if necessary, we usually use one, maybe two. I’ve now been asked to do four in the past three months, necessitating 12 hour+ flights and a significant toll on my wife’s job— the whole reason we are living here in the first place.

    If push comes to shove and the new grand-boss wants me to relocate back to “home base”, the choice is likely pretty simple. We are here for my wife’s job and our kid is settled in school, I will need to quit.

    But what can I do at this stage, before we reach that point? Is there a way to have a conversation that basically says “I love this job, I am committed to this job, but I can’t be running back to North America every three weeks, it’s not realistic and it’s not what we agreed to”?

    To answer a few of the questions that came up in the brief discussion earlier this week:

    -My boss is too new for me to have really gotten a feel for whether she is reasonable in other areas and whether this is likely to just be her “thing”. Part of me wants to see this resolved sooner rather than later, in hopes that it can be addressed as a “oops you’re new here and don’t know the backstory, here’s how we got here and why it could continue to work” rather than reaching a frustration point on both our parts.

    -While some people travel a lot for their jobs, and it’s not persay unreasonable, it has huge consequences for us. We moved here for my wife’s job, and she has one of those travel-heavy jobs. That means that when I am back in North America, we’re without overnight childcare, etc. not to mention that with the flights, there are 1.5 days on each end of the trip that are neither at the office nor at home. Not stuff that necessarily impacts the company, but for us, it’s clearly not as straight-forward as asking an employee who lives the next town over to come into the office a bit more often.

    1. wait wait don't freeze me*

      I love this job, I am committed to this job, but I can’t be running back to North America every three weeks, it’s not realistic and it’s not what we agreed to”?

      Can you just say that straight out? If you have anything in writing about the arrangement, that might be good to have in your back pocket, but honestly it’s something you’ve been doing for a decade, it’s something established and it’s something your new boss wants to change, so pushing back that this isn’t something that works for you and if they really want it, it might be time to discuss a plan for you leaving, might be a wake-up call for the boss.

    2. Havarti*

      Is this a new grand-boss AND new boss? Your text is unclear. If it’s a new grand-boss, why isn’t your boss batting for you on this? If it’s a new boss, it’s worth it to politely explain the situation and ask if there’s a compromise you can reach.

      1. The joys of remote work.*

        Apologies for not being clear— mashing up two posts got me all flustered.

        It’s a new grandboss but the same boss. The boss has been supportive throughout, but I think he might be feeling over his head with the new grandboss (she’s in full “gut everything down to the studs!” mode) and trying to pick his battles.

        1. MsM*

          Then yeah, I think you need to make it clear to him that you’re going to need him to fight for you on this, or at least back you up.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I think the fact that you were prepared and ready to quit in the first place makes this a little easier.

      I would say to you, put your cards on the table and have a discussion with the boss. I think you’re wording about loving the job but not being able to be in America every three weeks is excellent, use that. Point to the fact that your previous arrangement is what suits you best and you hope that you can return to that, otherwise it might make sense you for to begin a transition process out of the job.

      I hope this is just your boss getting to know the role and finding their feet rather than being unreasonable. They may not even be thinking about the difficulties of asking you to travel back and forth but this is definitely a conversation to have sooner rather than later. Just be prepared if Boss decides that they need someone in the office more.

      1. Artemesia*

        Ten years is a long time and things change. Ten years ago they needed the OP desperately and were willing to do a special deal; now things have changed, they probably have much of that covered in-house and the hassle factor of having someone distant may seem less worthwhile than in crisis times ten years ago. I’d be very careful here in assessing other options locally before getting to aggressive. If there are executives who know the situation and have your back that would be helpful, but if there has been a lot of turn over you may have co-workers and management asking themselves ‘why this special deal? it seems like a big hassle’ and countering that may not be easy. I’d see the handwriting on the wall and approach this gingerly with some willingness to rotate back more often if necessary or line up local work if your visa status allows it.

    4. WellRed*

      I don’t see any value in waiting to address it (unless it’s to show that you work just fine as a remote worker?). This is major, major stuff.

    5. UtOh!*

      Perhaps new boss does not know the full story of why you are working remotely, in a position that is difficult to fill, which you have been performing for the last 10 years? In my company, we rarely telecommute because there is no way to make it “fair” for everyone (sorry, some jobs are just not telecommute-friendly!). I can understand if there have been issues with not getting the work done, communication difficulties due to time differences, etc., but if there aren’t any, I would think this was a great solution to cover a very difficult role as you mention. I think you probably need to be ready to quit if you can’t come to a middle ground…perhaps that is what it will take (with the knowledge your skills will be if you can’t) to force a decision. Perhaps it’s just time to move on and find something more local?

  31. Laurel*

    Bait and switch situation: I have been in a new job for right at 4 months. My department is restructuring and my supervisor would like me to take on responsibilities that I actually left my last job for. I dipped my toe back in in the past month and I’m really drained by this kind of work. I want to basically say, I left a higher paying job for this one that allowed me to focus on a more narrow area of work that better suits me and this new work isn’t what I signed up for. I know he won’t be thrilled and could very likely say this is what it is (nonprofit) but I really feel taken advantage of. I would consider leaving if this isn’t resolved, when do I mention that?

    1. AnonLibrarian*

      Well, are this duties permanent or temporary? Also, there was a good letter a few weeks ago I think about how to say, “I will quit over this” I couldn’t find it in the archives, but I seem to remember it and I think it was really close to your situation. Might help. I’ll go look further.

      2. Laurel*

        It would be permanent. Thank you that post was helpful! I guess I’m feeling guilty because I know my supervisor is in a bind and he will try to convince me this is no big deal, but like I’ve only been there four months. That’s frustrating to anyone right?

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          Definitely frustrating, but I think it’s more important to say something sooner rather than later as you’ve only been in the position for four months and you don’t want this to become an ingrained part of your job. They may not like the situation but you were hired for something specific and it’s reasonable for you to say, “look, this isn’t what I was brought in for, I don’t want to do that, and I’m willing to leave if it becomes a thing”.

  32. Mashed potato*

    Anyone’s company did bad last quarter and they’re firing/ laying off people? Is this common in this world

    1. cheesesticks and pretzels*

      My company has been steadily laying people off since 2016. It is common in this world.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Ex job has a round of layoffs after every quarter. Even in December.

    3. Not In NYC Any More*

      Layoffs usually don’t occur after just one bad quarter, but it really depends on why the company had a bad quarter. Were profits down because the company was investing heavily in research & development? Were sales down because a hurricane forced a major customer to close for several weeks? In those cases, the next quarter will likely rebound. But if the quarter was down because a strong competitor moved into your space and customers are leaving you for them – layoffs are definitely possible. And yes, this is how the world works.

    4. WellRed*

      I can’t attribute to the quarter specifically, but we laid off someone in December. We are a tiny company, so it was like 5% of the total workforce (not really but to give an idea). And we’ve cut a few other positions since about 2016.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A bad quarter?! That’s very precarious, they are most likely fibbing and it was a rough year is more like it. Businesses don’t usually make decisions based on quarterly production, often seasons are soft for a few months and you can adjust.

      However a ton of companies start laying off on whims or lukewarm data.

      You shouldn’t work for those companies but people still line up to work for Boeing so nobody takes my advice anyways:(

  33. Bunny Girl*

    I work with a pretty big group of insufferable jackasses and the last three weeks they have been seriously testing my patience.

    Someone submitted receipts for an expense report to me that was not only in a different language, but a different alphabet. So basically, I couldn’t read it. But I was able to get the amount from it and that was the only piece of information I needed. The system autofills in the city that the person says they are traveling in and we don’t need it to be exact. But I filled out the report and submitted it and I got an email back from said staff member complaining about how the ticket was entered – saying that I should have been able to enter the company and the exact city that they were traveling in and it was all on the receipt. The receipt that was in another language. I’m so glad it’s Friday.

    1. Artemesia*

      I’d have sent it back to chucklehead and say ‘You need to translate this and get it back to me so I can process it.’ There are phone programs that easily translate including other alphabets if you want to avoid that, but I’d send it back to him. The person however lowly who controls when you get reimbursed has a lot of power in most places.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I don’t have a smart phone that was capable of doing that. I mentioned that I couldn’t read the receipts and he said it “didn’t matter” and I just needed to get them processed so they could meet our deadline. I was very tempted to send him back an email in yet another language.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t understand. He’s having it both ways if it doesn’t matter and he wanted you to get the info right.

          Even if he outranks you, it’s perfectly reasonable to require claims be in your work language and sufficiently detailed, or you’ll not process them. Would your supervisor back you on that?

        2. silverpie*

          Anothe reason this is important. If the language is a mystery, how sure are you that you have it in the correct currency?

    2. Nessun*

      I am in a similar situation with my boss’s expenses (which I enter, code and submit) – every year he travels for work, and this year it’s to India and Thailand. He’s been emailing me back receipts (and will doubtless have more he’s just stuffed in his pockets) in all kinds of currency and language. Last year he was in Europe mostly, and I could use some Google translate to get an idea what the expenses were for, but this year…not even sure how to get that in the system when the letters aren’t the Roman alphabet! Luckily (?) I have to include the original receipts with the report, so if anyone gives me any flack, I’m gonna say “Look at it yourself, and find someone who can read whatever that language is (Sanskrit? Who knows?) and figure it out – I’ve got nothing.”

  34. Youth*

    TL;DR: Why do I find this process for scheduling an interview so off-putting?

    Applied for a job on Saturday. Got an automated email on Tuesday afternoon saying the company would soon be in touch to schedule an interview. It said they’d call me ONLY to schedule an in-person interview (meaning, I’m assuming, it wasn’t a surprise phone interview)–but that if I wanted my pick of times, I needed to call them first. I thought that was kind of weird, but whatever.

    I called them a few hours later, got an answering machine, and left a voicemail. Said I’d received their message, I was interested in coming in, and that when they called me back, if I didn’t pick up right away, I’d get back to them as soon as I was able.

    The next day, while I was working, they called me and left a voicemail. However, it sounded like the person hiring hadn’t received my voicemail at all (no reference to it or anything I said in it). During the voicemail, she said that to schedule me for an interview, the owner first needed her to go over some things with me. So call her back plz thnx bye.

    Also, as soon as she called, their automatic system sent me another email, saying something like, “Sorry we missed you. Are you still interested? Please call us if you are!” Dude. I literally left a voicemail yesterday saying I was interested. I called them again, and…voicemail again.

    I don’t know. I feel like a) it’s not super convenient to set up interviews only by phone, but if that’s the way you want to go, then b) you need to be responsive and make the process as easy as possible. Right now, I feel like I’ve been asked out by a guy who’s super insecure and is making me jump through hoops to prove I want to go out with him, even though I approached him first. Is this a similar kind of thing, just with hiring? Or do they just have a weird process that I’m reading too much into?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I’d be annoyed by this and I might take it as a yellow flag: something to be aware of but not too concerned about. I would, however, not jump through too many hoops. If you can’t schedule an interview within a reasonable time, then I’d forget about the job and move on.

      Honestly though, they just sound disorganised.

    2. Forkeater*

      I would definitely email them as well despite their instructions.

      I got an annoying interview request this week which was “tell me four times in the next ten days you could talk to us.” I mean I guess that’s fine, but it just seemed oddly restrictive.

  35. Mikasa*

    My first job out of college. Small, private company. Great boss and coworkers. But… I know the company is going under, and my boss (the head accountant) basically warned me to abandon ship. She’s leaving too. I’m the accountant. I see what’s happening with the finances and it is not good. 

    Thank goodness she’ll be my reference and help with my resume. It just stinks because it’s my first job and I didn’t make a full year (only 5 months). I’m sad. I don’t know what to do. I can’t believe this is happening. Only 5 months under a CPA and now I need to find another job with a CPA to get licensed. Will I even get another job with only 5 months of full-time experience? Can anyone sympathize or give advice? 

    1. AnonLibrarian*

      You just have to start looking. If anyone asks in an interview, the answer can be that your company was having financial difficulties and you were advised to start looking.

      Listen, I know this sucks. God, I know it, but you have to just dust yourself off and start hunting. I don’t know where CPAs look for job listings, but I bet others around here do. Just keep trucking. You can do this!

    3. Tara S.*

      Hi, I’m so sorry this sucks, it actually happened to me too! My first job out of college went bankrupt overnight (well, from my non-financial perspective) and it’s very jarring and stressful. But things will be ok. It’s easier to get a new relatively entry-level job than a more senior one, so that will help. And while the short stay isn’t ideal, you have a killer explanation for why you left – because everyone did! Or, if you are applying a little before the ultimate demise, you can just say that the job wasn’t what you expected (true, you expected it wouldn’t disappear under your feet) and that you’re looking for a better fit.

    4. MsM*

      You’re going to be okay. A short tenure isn’t fatal with a first job even if you’re the one deciding to leave: you don’t know as much about what you need in a workplace or how to position your career in the right direction for you as someone with more experience, so as long as you can demonstrate why you think the new job’s going to be a better fit, the interviewer will probably accept it and move on. In this case, it might even help that you haven’t been there long, since you clearly weren’t the reason they went under.

    5. Coffee Owlccountant*

      Oh no, that’s awful, I’m sorry. Reasonable companies, interviews and hiring managers are not going to bat an eye at your reasons for leaving – you are getting ahead of the game before you are laid off or the company closes for financial reasons. It is stressful to have to gear up for another job search after you likely just finished one, but you have gotten the benefit of five months and that’s not nothing! You can do this.

      The first place I would go to in your shoes is back to your college career center to see if they have any possible CPA connections for you. Most colleges that I’ve heard of offer their career services to their alumni as well as their students, and they may have resources for you. Also, have you joined the AICPA yet? They do have discounted rates for those of us who are chasing their CPAs but haven’t finished all the requirements yet. Your state likely also has CPA societies that will post accountant positions.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’ll be fine. Trust me.

      My first job crumbled as well. But within 14 months. I was on a different track and went into bookkeeping and staff accountant positions from there without any squabbling. I’m not interested in becoming a CPA however.

      Accounting people know and understand these things WAY WAY WAY more than others would. You say the company collapsed financially and so here you are, needing a new job to apprentice under. They get it. It’s not your fault and have a reference to confirm the story.

  36. mollipop*

    Long time reader, first-time commenter!

    Does anyone have any suggestions for questions I can ask in job interviews that will reveal how much autonomy I’ll be granted in the job? I’m applying for low-level management roles, and something I’ve been frustrated by in past jobs is that a lot of organizations in my industry have very rigid processes. While I’m fine with this in some cases, in my last job, the department head had very strict rules for hiring (including requiring all hiring managers to ask the same questions, in the same order, with no follow-up) and so for my next job, I’m looking for roles where I can give my staff the ability to try new approaches as long as they’re consistently achieving good outcomes, as well as where I can have a little more control over the hiring and interview process on my team. At the same time, I don’t want to look like a control freak or overstep the bounds of my role.

    1. Argh!*

      You should be able to tell how they interview people by the way they interview you! Structured interviews are usually announced, and if not they do tend to have a robotic sense.

      If you’re primary responsibility is HR & hiring, you could ask about training for interviewers (or THOSE interviewers) on the legalities of interview questions. If an employer doesn’t train employees, I would hope they won’t trust them! I wouldn’t want to be the supervisor of a team that asks illegal questions or spends 15 of 20 minutes talking about last night’s football game.

    2. irene adler*

      Maybe this might spark some telling responses:
      Can you describe the last time you pursued a bold new idea as an organization?
      How do employees develop and learn?
      What kind of team culture you have?
      What was the department’s biggest challenge last year and what did you learn from it?
      What type of person works best in this company and what type of person doesn’t do as well?
      Where will I have the final say in my work and what needs approval from a superior?

  37. Pinky Pie*

    Just a small piece of that’s really dumb advice. Friend was told by her career service at college to include a token of appreciation (think a small gift card or a nice pin) in her thank you letter. She’s certain since this person works to help people get jobs, that this is the right thing to do.

    I reminded her that my college career advisor told me to show up in person to put in an application instead of doing it online. Yep- that was mentioned as well.

    5. UtOh!*

      I’m curious, what kind of “nice pin” would one include (unless you meant a pen)? What if the interviewer is a man, should they get a pair of studs?

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So many quacks in the “career advisory” and “coaching” world. They are out of touch and antiquated. The advice they have is from 1975 when you could also chain smoke at your desk all day.

    7. rubyrose*

      What are the qualifications for working in college career service offices? There does not seem to be anything concrete.
      I have to admit, I’m biased. I had an on campus interview where the interviewer spent 10 minutes of a 30 minute session asking me about my leg brace and how I got along with it! After the interview, I went to the career service person who set the interview up, told him about my experience, and suggested something be done to spare any one else. His first words: ‘but they hire a lot of people through here.”

  38. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    First, the good news: I got a raise! I’m still underpaid, but at least my salary didn’t depreciate further. Also, I’m going to be updated to a significantly better medical insurance. Sadly, my home office request is still under consideration, but I don’t have much hopes.

    The bad. Our most senior engineer left. That’s not uncommon, but we were upset that the owners acted like nothing had happened and we had to text our (now ex) coworker to find out whether he was going to come back or not. They mentioned briefly during the team leaders’ weekly meeting, though. We suspect he got angry with the owners since we invited him to some farewell beers nearby and he declined.

  39. darlingpants*

    This might be too niche for anyone who isn’t an overly educated scientist, but I’m job searching after graduating with my PhD and I’m wondering 1) how far from my thesis work I’m qualified for jobs and 2) if the advice not to apply to different “types” of jobs in the same company (because it makes you look scattered and not specifically interested in any one job) is like, don’t apply to an R&D/scientist position and a billing position, or if it applies to the difference between a cancer biology position and a mouse genetics position.
    My thesis work was on imaging and orthopedics, but I also did a lot of cell culture/some molecular chemistry techniques, and so far I haven’t found very many R&D jobs in orthopedics/muskuloskeletal stuff, and I’ve found a lot on cancer and immune research. I’m positive that I could learn the cancer/immune techniques in a few months and do well at the jobs, but I’m worried that because they aren’t on my resume/CV I’ll be dismissed by the company.
    All that to say that this is stressful and I don’t feel like I know what I’m doing and I’m open to any advice from people who work in bio/medical research!

    1. sleepwakehopeandthen*

      Just sympathy here, post-PhD jobs are so specialized and hard to find. I’m in a similar boat, so if you want advice (or maybe opinions) from someone in the same position as you, not someone who has actually found a job yet… I would apply to jobs that seem to involve lots of cell culture stuff. My biology PhD is in a discipline that is really only academic, so for job applications, I mostly emphasize the techniques that I use. I think that probably a cancer biologist would have a leg up on me, (everyone wants cancer/immunology PhDs) but the people I know who have gotten industry jobs from my program have done this. Although some of them do end up doing more biomed focused postdocs as a bridge to get jobs in industry.

    2. Mrs. Badcrumble*

      I work with a lot of scientists in R&D, but I’m only a biostatistician, so take this advice with a grain of salt — you might be ok if you’re applying to lower level cell bio positions, but you might be able to start higher up if you find something in medical devices. That said — if you personally were doing data analysis of your imaging and you like that, have a look at data science jobs, that area is really hot right now.

      1. darlingpants*

        Yeah, I really want to be in lab doing things with my hands instead of stuck behind my computer all the time. It’s the reason I went to grad school and I’m hoping I didn’t sabotage myself! Also I know just enough statistics to realize that everyone is doing it wrong, but not enough to do it right!

        1. TL -*

          Oof, that really depends. A masters can keep you in the lab better than a PhD can, honestly – though there are more PhD level bench scientists positions in industry.

      2. irene adler*

        Just know that some lower level cell bio job descriptions specifically say “No PhDs please.”

    3. Nesprin*

      Ooh- overly educated scientist here! Looking for jobs as a PhD is going to be rough- you’re expensive and specialized and your job search will reflect this. When I was applying for postdocs (which are somewhat easier than industry jobs) I sent in >200 applications for 4 interviews and 1 position. It’s worth talking to everyone you can find for informational interviews, and sending your resume everywhere you can think of.
      I’ve jumped from ortho biomechanics to cancer over the course of my career, but there were always interveining steps. Think instead of thesis subject, think techniques- so cell culture is cell culture to some extent, and demonstrating a range of techniques is often better than mastering 1. That being said, musculoskeletal and cancer/immune are a pretty big gap, claiming that you can pick it up quickly will rub wrong someone who spent a PhD’s worth of time learning the latter .
      I think the advice about not applying to >1 post at a company is largely nonsense.

      1. darlingpants*

        Sorry that came off so cavalierly! I was talking about skills like flow cytometry or transfection, not literally all the background knowledge that a PhD in cancer biology gets you.
        I had a kind of weird range of techniques I think. I did a lot of MRI (but I’m not experienced enough to actually design my own scan sequences) and some mechanical testing, but I also designed a bioreactor, did a project with a lot of ELISAs, western blots and PCR, and tried some tissue engineering. And now I’m trying to do some macrophage work, so I feel like the immune stuff isn’t so far out of my grasp? I definitely feel like a jack of all trades and it’s making job searching hard.

      2. darlingpants*

        Actually can I ask you about the post-doc search? How did you even find 200 post docs to apply to? There are like 3 I think I’m interested in and I feel even more unsure about what I’d be qualified for/interested in for a postdoc, as opposed to industry where I’m more open to just trying stuff out for a few years.

    4. Argh!*

      In other fields, the cover letter is supposed to explain things like that. “I enjoyed working on xyz, though my research was in lmnop. I accomplished 1, 2, and 3 in xyz and would like to continue on that path through continuing education and research.”

      I have a bit of that in my cover letter at the moment. If you get to the interview and it comes up, you can say you’re avoiding the “Sunk Cost Fallacy,” which is something a business should agree with!

      http://time.com/5347133/sunk-cost-fallacy-decisions/

    5. TL -*

      That honestly will depend on the job and the market – if they’re looking for someone to drive a project, your background might be prohibitive. And if you’ve got a lot of cancer/immuno people running around, that’s going to make it harder.

      Cancer is going to be easier to go into than immuno. Immuno is its own special beast and if they’re looking for someone with a PhD in immunology they’re probably looking for that particular knowledge set. My old lab moved into immuno/cancer research and we hired an immuno person and basically said do whatever project you want, just please lend your expertise to everyone else. We need it.

      I know people who have done postdocs in different fields, but usually there’s a project that they can point to that led them that way. Ex: PhD in microbio in (lung) cancer lab because she had identified a really cool interaction between gut bacteria and colon cancer that the PI was very interested in exploring. PhD in yeast genetics in chemical engineering lab working on yeast drug production platforms.

      If they’re hiring just for skillset, that is a different story, of course. But primarily bench skills positions are more likely to look for masters and BS candidates, not PhDs.

      You can definitely apply to multiple positions in the same company – mouse genetics and cancer biology could have a lot of overlap in skillsets and knowledge needed.

  40. AnonLibrarian*

    So, I am facing a student worker conundrum. I have a student worker who worked for me for maybe five weeks, got really ill and ended up in and out of the hospital for a while. I am so sympathetic to this, but she hasn’t been able to reliably tell me when she will return.

    She has given me several return dates, only to have them fall through, which is not her fault at all.

    So, I don’t want to terminate her, but I do need someone in the job. When she was here, she was excellent. But she was never fully trained (because there wasn’t time) and she’s graduating in the Spring. I just don’t know the best way to approach this. She says she wants to come back in early February.

    I’ve said that she is welcome to return, but that we may not be able to hold her old job open for her. She’s work study and therefore her wages don’t impact my budget. So, I can happy to have her if she can return, but I’m worried I’m either being naive about the fact that she will be able too return or I am being overly harsh.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Could you split the position for now to get someone in to start, if you do want to have room for her to return? Then if she doesn’t, you can give more hours to the new work study. I don’t think you’re being overly harsh-it sounds like it’s been a tough semester/year for her and you’re trying to be accommodating. With it being her last semester and being out for so much last semester, she may have a lot of work to catch up on and it may be kinder to phrase it as “We really enjoyed having you here but we want you to focus on school/getting better.”

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Realistically I wonder if she’s going to be in a position to work at all for awhile when she returns. It’s likely she’ll be really behind in her classes already and I would wonder if her time away has affected her student status/class load to be eligible.

      Unfortunately this may be one of those times that you have to find a replacement (maybe see if you can get someone only interested in the semester to allow her to come back next semester).

      I’d give it one more chance (I’m a bit of a softy myself) and if the date moves I’d tell her that you can’t hold the position any longer.

  41. Alice*

    Service to the profession / Volunteering with professional organizations — do you do it?

    I do, but I’m also starting to get sick of being dunned for membership fees and conference registration fees when I’m taking leadership roles in organizing events, or providing content that the organization charges money for. I’m also giving the side eye to the staffers who work for and/or lead these organizations at the national level — they’re not providing the level of admin support that I think they should, and so I’m wondering what value they do provide.

    1. AnonLibrarian*

      I do it, however, I get why people don’t. I think it depends on the organization. Personally, I really find the fact that you have to attend two conferences in my field in a row if you are on a committee, because one is technically a pre-conference really insane.

        1. fposte*

          Mary! It’s been so long! I saw a bra that made me think of you.

          (I’ve been on a few three-ALA committees. Fun times.)

    3. MsM*

      Unless the staffer in question is literally assigned to your committee and nothing else, I can pretty much guarantee that your interactions with them constitute just a fraction of their day-to-day responsibilities. Similarly, yes, your planning assistance might save them from having to hire more meeting staff, but it still doesn’t cover the full cost of the conference by a long shot; most of the places I’ve worked considered breaking even a success.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        breaking even

        Without naming my organization, at least one category of our gatherings was always budgeted expecting not to break even, because we wanted to include law students and other community members without deep pockets. We would look to the local leadership to donate a little extra or pay for a few extra registration fees to help, but in the end we just designated part of our annual budget to pay for the gathering with no expectation that we’d recoup the costs.

      2. Alice*

        The thing is, these committees are a fraction of my day-to-day responsibilities too, and I still manage to answer emails, join conference calls on time, and generally be a reliable partner.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In my line of work and volunteerism (law), volunteering wouldn’t exempt me from membership fees and conference registration fees. We would have a sliding scale for law students and early-career attorneys, but no freebies unless there was something exceptional going for an individual.

      I can’t speak to the workers at your particular organization’s national office. However, I’d suspect they may do more work behind the scenes cultivating donors, building relationships, etc., than is immediately obvious to the rest of the membership.

      1. Alice*

        I hope they are — but also, I hope they’d communicate that to members. Don’t they realize we wonder where the money is going?

        1. MsM*

          Oh, yes, absolutely we do. In fact, a not-insignificant portion of work time for anyone who deals directly with attendees during conference season gets taken up with responses to “why is this so expensive?” and “do you know how much I do for your organization?” and “don’t you have any other discount options?” And even when we try to break things down for people, they still refuse to accept it. The coffee during morning breaks, for example? That stuff costs its weight in gold. No, we can’t source it from somewhere else, because we have to go through the venue. No, we can’t use a different venue, because there’s nowhere else that can accommodate a group this size during the dates we need. There are dozens upon dozens of little considerations like that reflected in the final rates. We’re not just setting the highest number we think we can get away with and then rubbing our hands in anticipation of the profits.

          1. Alice*

            Well, I’m sorry that people are bothering you. But I still think that saying “when you send [the speaker’s colleague at the national org] an email, make sure you follow up with a phone call, or else she won’t look at it” is not the sign of a well-functioning organization.

            1. MsM*

              Or she does look at it, and then it gets buried under hundreds of other emails, or placed on the to-do list behind the dozens of other tasks that need to be completed ASAP. Which is certainly not a problem unique to professional associations, at least in my experience.

              I’m happy that you have everything under control on your end of things, and if you’re not getting what you want out of volunteering, there’s no reason you should continue doing so. But implying that staffers should justify their salary to you when the vast majority are underpaid for the amount of work they’re doing is a good way to get yourself moved to the back of the priority list, because they’re also going to need to build in time to put their best customer service game face back on before responding.

            2. Glomarization, Esq.*

              I think, on the contrary, they were being very helpful in explaining the best way to actually reach the person you were trying to reach.

              I mean, non-profit organizations’ staff offices are notoriously underfunded and overworked, people wearing multiple hats and working on piles and piles of work, and so on. Especially as a conference date approaches, the number of fires that spring up and have to be swatted really ramps up. Or maybe the person you’re talking about was out of the office on meetings or checking the conference venue or other commitments, so for a stretch they were just unable to answer e-mails.

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          As a member, I imagine you have some kind of right to look at the annual budget documents and financial reports. Or maybe you can join the finance committee (or its analogue) to actively participate in budget oversight.

  42. Galinda Upland*

    How to follow up on an offer for feedback?
    When I was in grad school, I did some work for Natasha, who’s semi-prominent in our field and was working with a particular company at the time (which meant I was working with them too). A couple months ago, she forwarded me an email from Sonya, one of the bigwigs at the company, who was asking Natasha if she had any recommendations for filling a newly vacant job. This job is exactly the kind of job I’d be interested in and studied for, but don’t have the years of experience for a job at this senior of a level. Natasha told Sonya about me, and told me that I should email Sonya with just a quick intro and my resume to connect for the future.
    I did so, and Sonya replied telling me she’d like me to apply anyway, despite my lack of experience. Unsurprisingly, I did not get the job, but in the rejection email, Sonya asked if I’d like some feedback, for the learning experience. I accepted, and she promised to get back to me when she returned to the office the next week. Then the holidays hit, and I never heard anything. Is it okay to email her and see if she’s still willing to offer feedback, or should I not bother her?

  43. AcademiBLAH*

    I’m about to leave a University admin job after 3+ years and am debating what to say in my exit interview. I have a Lot Of Thoughts about what’s wrong within my department and with my role specifically, but I doubt HR actually cares. And I don’t want to throw my current boss (who inherited all these problems) under the bus.

    How to communicate how crappy things are in a way that will actually make a dent?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I left a position similar to yours early last year and yeah I did go in to my exit interview and share my thoughts and told them exactly why I was leaving. I did it very professionally, and I had a ton of hard evidence that I brought with me to the interview. I had talked to the head of the department before my exit interview, because I didn’t want her to be blind sided. She was really receptive to it. And the HR rep was always really receptive. My complaints were around my boss, who I think was doing some borderline illegal stuff. I don’t really know if much changed as far as my boss went, but a couple of my other complaints actually were addressed and I did see a change. So I think it just depends on your department and how you feel. Also know that in a University, sometimes it is really hard to change things on a department level.

      Good luck!

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      When I went for my exit interview, it was 3 months after my boss, Dumbledore, retired and I had been inherited by his boss, Umbridge, who didn’t make any preparations for him leaving and decided since I only have a master’s I’m not able to run our programs (despite Dumbledore also “only” having a master’s).

      I was honest with HR that I greatly enjoyed working with Dumbledore but now with Umbridge as my boss I had to go. They responded with “Oh, Umbridge? Okay makes sense why you’re leaving.” So they KNEW why everyone in my office was jumping ship but weren’t planning to do anything. It was so frustrating.

      Besides that I talked about lack of growth opportunities and negativity. I also don’t think HR cared (obviously, given above response), but I felt good sharing it. And people keep leaving so it’s more proof that there’s a problem.

    3. Neosmom*

      Don’t. They’ve had 3+ years to check in with you regarding how the situation can be improved. You are moving on. Congrats!

    4. Venus*

      If you think that there is a chance of helping our CurrentBoss then it might be worthwhile to say something about how they inherited a lot of problems and it would be useful for them to have some support. If you can list specific ways then that could be helpful for them.

    5. Not I said the fly*

      When I left my university job, I pondered how honest to be in my exit interview with HR. Turned out HR couldn’t care less. The whole “interview” was reconciling paperwork, confirming how much leave I had, and making sure my health care and retirement paperwork was in order. Not once was I asked to say anything abou the job!

  44. Bigglesworth*

    Hey everyone! I have an internship question/retracting an accepted offer.

    TLDR: Should I withdraw from a legal internship with a federal government agency due to the shutdown to accept an offer from a non-profit?

    Background: Late last year, I interviewed at two different employers for my 2L spring internship. One, a federal government agency, offered me a position immediately. The other was a non-profit who’s cause I strongly support. Although I was more excited at the prospect of working with the non-profit, they hadn’t contacted me in close to a month (applied in October, interviewed early November, and this was right before Christmas). I asked for a bit of time to think about the offer and emailed the non-profit restating my interest, telling them about this other offer, and giving them a week to get back to me. They didn’t and I accepted the offer from the agency. About a four days after I accepted, the non-profit reached out offering me a position with them if I hadn’t accepted the other one. I told them I did but said I would love to intern over the summer and fall.

    Well, now I’m in a pickle. My federal government agency internship is on hold until the government shutdown ends. I’ve been told to wait until I hear from them to see what the next steps are. At this point, I could still spend most of the spring working with the non-profit if they’ll still have me, but I don’t want to burn any bridges with the agency.

    Should I email the agency stating that I need to withdraw and accept a different internship? Would this burn any bridges?

    1. wait wait don't freeze me*

      I don’t think this would burn bridges. I think they will understand. (and if they don’t get it, that might not be a great fit anyway)

      1. Bigglesworth*

        That’s a good point. The attorneys I interviewed with seemed reasonable when I interviewed and I see have any red flags when I interviewed.

    2. CatCat*

      Isn’t spring semester right now? Like should you be doing the internship now?

      I don’t think it would be reasonable for the agency to expect you to be in a holding pattern when there is no definite end to the shutdown, especially since they have not actually provided you with the next steps. Assuming they are reasonable, they should understand why you had to take something else. If you can call them, that would be better than emailing, but if you don’t have a contact that has been deemed essential and is still working, I think all you can do is email.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        It is. I should have started my internship on the 1/14. I (naively perhaps) assumed that even if I started a week late it would be ok. Considering there is no forecast to when the shutdown will end, I haven’t been sure how to proceed.

        I’m just doing this for the experience and not for credit, so I’m much more fortunate than others who are scrambling to figure out a new course schedule or pick up another class so that they can graduate on time.

        1. Southern Ladybug*

          Under the uncertain circumstances (and what happens in 3 weeks?), I think you should take the non-profit position if you are able. Particularly since it was your first choice anyway. I am sure your federal government contacts will understand – this is a crazy situation.

          1. Venus*

            Under the circumstances they also likely have enough other things to worry about that this would be so minor in comparison! If they are good people then they will likely be happy and understanding (if I were them I would feel guilty for not being able to take you on yet).

            I definitely agree about contacting the non-profit again, to see if that’s still a possibility.

  45. gbca*

    What are the pros and cons of working for a company as a contractor (though another company, not as an independent contractor)? My husband interviewed for a job where he’d be a contract employee for a giant company you’ve all heard of. They told him that Giant Company utilizes 40% contract labor, so it’s a very common thing there. Just curious what things he should be looking out for and considering, if they make him an offer.

    1. BeanCat*

      Hi! This sounds exactly like what I do now. The big thing I should point out are that if there’s no direct supervisor on site they may not be aware of the day to day happenings at Giant Company (unless contracting company works exclusively with Giant Company). What I like is being on my own Giant Company’s schedule – we get holidays that I get paid for and don’t have to take as PTO with my company. I also really like how it taught me about a field I never expected to be interested in.

      Another thing to look out for is that sometimes it’s hard knowing which company your loyalties lie with – is it the one that is on your paperwork, or the one where you spend every day getting to know all your coworkers? I’ve had a lot of this myself especially since we don’t have a direct supervisor on site.

      Good luck to your husband, and I hope this helps!

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I started out this way at my current job, though I was eventually brought on full time. However, I was unemployed previously so a contract position was literally better than nothing in my case. If he’s currently employed and wondering if he should make the switch, here are some things to consider, or to just consider in general:

      -How long is the contract for and how often do they get renewed? Some contracts are for a set amount of time, some are indefinite. This could easily be a permanent position in all but name, or it could be something with a hard ending, it’s important to distinguish.
      -Is there an opportunity to transfer to being a fulltime employee of Giant Company? How often and after how long does this typically occur? Sometimes companies use contract labor in a try-before-they-buy fashion, this may be a good way to get into the company. (or not!)
      -Can he get benefits? The company I contracted through offered health insurance after being there for a couple months, but it was awful and crazy expensive. This may not matter if he’s on your insurance (or if you aren’t USA based), but while being this type of contractor meant I worked full normal hours like a salaried employee, I received no vacation or sick time, and had to submit a timesheet at the end of each week. If I needed to take time off, it came directly out of my paycheck. There were also other benefits my company offered its employees that as a contractor, I couldn’t take advantage of, like discounts on transportation, your phone plan, gym memberships, etc. Will he be able to take advantage of things like that, or is that not extended to contractors? It’s maybe not a big deal, but whenever my coworkers talked about picking up their monthly train pass or getting reimbursed for something, I couldn’t help but feel a little twinge of feeling left out or maybe jealousy, because we were doing the same job but they were getting more from the company. Again, possibly not applicable but worth looking into.
      -How well does it pay? For all the reasons I listed above, the contract position should pay extremely well to make up for what he won’t be getting.
      -How do they treat their contractors? My company doesn’t distinguish between contractors and fulltime people (there’s people who have been here for years that I learn offhand that they’re contractors and it’s a surprise), but I’m sure there are places that treat contractors as lesser, or there’s an us-and-them divide. This may not be the case, and I’m not quite sure how you would figure this out without talking to someone who contracts for Giant Company, but I bet that could take a real toll on someone’s workplace happiness.

      Just some things to consider!

    3. Need a Beach*

      Get clarity on what rules husband has to follow, those of the agency or the company (or both). Is he eligible for PTO or sick time? Does he get paid if the company is closed on a holiday? How is his time counted (for ex: once I worked 50 hours the week before Christmas, but saw not a drop of overtime because the agency counted OT as only being more than 80 hours in a two-week pay cycle, and having 12/24 and 12/25 off kicked me below 80)? If the job has the future possibility of permanent hire, can he negotiate for his contract time to count towards time-sensitive policies such as vesting? Will he be eligible for medical coverage?

      (The general rule is that the hourly rate for a freelancer should be 40% higher than the hourly rate for a FT permanent employee with benefits, but YMMV based on how he answers all these questions.)

      Also, try to find out how the relationship between the agency and the company works. In order to understand the agency’s motivations, you need to know which side their bread is buttered. I worked for a company that paid the agency a flat rate for me, so the agency recruiter was highly motivated to dissuade me from negotiating for better pay because it came out of their cut.

    4. Aviva*

      This sounds like my position right now, although my position is indefinite and I’m technically a “vendor”. I’m considered a “consulting employee” of my company, which has been contracted to staff and run a project for Giant Company.

      I think almost everything I had to say has been covered by others, so I’ll just give my biggest piece of advice: if possibility of conversion to becoming a Giant Company employee is a motivator for taking this job, ask about how often it actually happens. When I was first hired the recruiter told me there was a possibility of conversion, but I’ve since found out that it rarely happens, and only for people who have managed to hang on for a few years (at relatively low pay, no PTO, and terrible insurance) and make the right connections. But then I’ve heard that another giant company in the area actually means it when they say there’s a possibility of conversion, so YMMV.

      Also, find out what the opportunities for growth are. In my experience a lot of contract jobs are dead ends, in part because it’s cheaper for the staffing company to keep hiring new people at starting pay rates than it is keep someone in a position for multiple years and give raises. My company (the one I officially work for, not Giant Company) doesn’t even do any kind of performance review unless it’s a PIP, because performance reviews lead to raises.
      I would also second the advice on finding out how the company treats contractors, and how the divide between contractor and employee is handled. As a vendor, I get access to some Giant Company perks and not others, and it can be jarring to try to visit some innocuous should-be-open-to-everyone internal site only to get an accessed denied notice.

    5. Gumby*

      Yeah, it is very common that people in that type of situation to make less money, be offered worse perks, and be seen as more expendable than direct employees of Giant Companies. One company in particular *has* had some of their direct employees advocating for their contracting co-workers recently but that is far from the norm. I do know someone who was a contracting company for, perhaps, the same Giant Company and she felt she was treated as a second class citizen and pretty much hated it. As in: in the same building but had to use a separate break room because the one for direct employees had snacks provided and those were for direct employees only.

  46. Pam Beesly*

    I’ve been in my department for two years and share admin/scheduling duties with three other people (one is currently out on medical leave). My fellow admins will literally spend a half hour each day chatting with each other while the phone is ringing. They’ll go for walks to get breakfast from the cafeteria, once again leaving me to answer the phones. If a client calls to reschedule and I check my co-workers’ paperwork, they often haven’t done everything they need to do to prep for the appointment. I usually brush these issues aside, as my manager recognizes how hard I work by giving me raises. I am also waiting for another admin in the department to retire in two years; it will be a lateral move for me, but I won’t have to work with my current admins, as the scheduling is different. Is it worth discussing my co-workers with my manager? Or do I just need to change my mindset?

    1. Four lights*

      I wouldn’t wait two years to address it. I wouldn’t frame it as complaining about them, but more like “these tasks aren’t done and are impacting my ability to do my work”

      1. valentine*

        Can you reasonably not answer the phone? I might answer every third or fourth call. If your supervisor doesn’t know you’re amongst skivers, you need to say. If the retirement doesn’t happen or you don’t get that job, what would you do? Do that now, if your supervisor doesn’t do anything after you report the skiving.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Speak with your boss about the issue. They’re skirting their jobs and need a spotlight to be shining on that. If your boss doesn’t take action, then at least you didn’t sit by and just stew about it.

      Many people coast like that. Make sure your boss knows you’re doing their jobs so it’s put into the universe you’re awesome at your job, so awesome you do the work of 3 people.

      They shouldn’t be taking breaks together, that’s absurd and defies the reason to have multiple backups like that.

      My bosses would murder a fool for letting a phone ring.

  47. ThatGirl*

    I’m mostly proud of myself but also a tiny bit embarrassed; I took the bull by the horns this morning and had a fairly candid conversation with my manager about how I’m not doing the job I want to be doing, or that I was hired to do, and wanted to know what was being done to change that.

    while I did tear up a bit (damn you, hormones), I mostly kept my calm and managed to spell it out, and my manager agreed that I was being underutilized and promised to get me a plan and some answers.

  48. Cruciatus*

    Short version: My non-librarian coworker and I are expected to pay our own mileage and food (but not hotel or conference costs) at a conference when the librarians going to the same conference will have everything paid for.
    I work at a Big 10 library system as a non-librarian staff member, though not at the mothership campus. My coworker and I (we share the same title) are going to a conference in the spring in a nearby city. We were approved to go even though it’s generally more for librarians but it’s the closest the conference has been in a while and we both feel we may never get another shot to go to something like this (she’s been here over 10 years and has never done anything like this). So the hotel and cost of the conference is paid for by my employer. When I was filling out the travel request form the director of our library told us we weren’t supposed to add our mileage or food. I thought this was true for EVERYONE, not just us non-librarians. But this week I found out the librarians are adding their mileage and expecting to be reimbursed for food. Now that I know this I’m a bit angry about it. I know the librarians are considered faculty and get a set amount of money for conferences–but this is literally the only time my coworker and I will be out of this library for anything…ever (so far) (and the dean is always saying there is money for staff to use for things).
    Is it worth revisiting with the director next week (they’re gone on their own conference now)? I wasn’t excited about paying for food/mileage but just thought it was “a thing” and it was one thing when we all were doing it, though I did grumble about the nickel and diming. I’m appreciative that the hotel and conference are paid for but hate that my employer is expecting us, the lowest paid full time employees in the library, to pay these extras. So when everyone wants to go out to eat, my coworker and I will be looking for the nearest McDonald’s. It’s like they’re saying…hey be grateful you even get to go! Also, my coworker and I are expected to share a presentation about what we’ve learned to some library group in the system (we don’t even know who–but none of the librarians are expected to do this). So if I should bring this up, what is the best way to frame it? My employer is big on the word “equity” and none of this feels equitable. Any thoughts, especially from people in large university library systems would be much appreciated!

    1. merp*

      No advice really but sympathy. It seems like something that you should be able to bring up certainly but I worry the entire bureaucratic environment of a large university would make it impossible for someone to do something about it. The discrepancies between librarians and those who do librarian work but don’t have the job title are the worst and I wish the profession cared more about fixing them.

    2. CatCat*

      Could something have changed? It seems odd to me that food and mileage would be reimbursable for one group of employees and not another.

      What about something like: “Hey Director, when we talked, you said we should not put mileage and food expense reimbursement as part of the travel request. I was talking Librarian and he mentioned that he is putting in for those reimbursements. Has something changed and those are reimbursable? Can you please clarify the policy for me?”

    3. Librarian person*

      Up until a year ago I worked for a university library system for about ten years. And there always seems to be a whole host of problems surrounding the “difference” between librarians and support staff, and I could go on about it for days. But in terms of the situation you are describing, these are my thoughts, based on my own single experience: You say the librarians are considered facutly. In a lot of university libraries that denotes some type of tenure process. Meaning, when I was an academic librarian it was considered part of my job to go to these types of conferences, and I got a certain amount of money to do so (although it never covered everything). Whereas support staff are not usually required or expected to go to these types of conferences as part of their jobs. And it was very difficult for our support staff to get approval to do so. And they alsmost always had to pay out of pocket if they wanted to go. I am not saying this is the right way for things to be, only stating how it was for me. It might be that your administration sees letting you go to the conference as more of a bonus or perk to you, and probably feels quite gracious that they are paying for any of it. Or it could just be that there is money set aside for staff, but the ammount won’t cover the whole trip for two of you so this is the best they can do.

      If you do bring it up, I would leave out all the “unfairness” etc. because they will no doubt have an argument for that and it’s probably not a rabbit hole you wanna go down. Also, make sure they are truly being reimbursed for everything because I was always asked to put down everything but would only be reimbursed up to the point that my money ran out. I think maybe the best way to bring it up, is under the guise of clarification?

      1. Not In NYC Any More*

        ^ This. I think you can still ask for clarification, just to make sure nothing has changed, but the difference between faculty and non-faculty at universities is vast. As Librarian person states, it’s very likely that going to conferences for additional training is a requirement for faculty, while it is a perk for non faculty. So the director probably is thinking that you are lucky to be going at all. As far as doing a presentation afterward – my career has been in corporate, so YMMV, but I can’t remember ever returning from a conference or other event and not sharing slides and presenting what I’ve learned with other groups in the company. It’s all part of making the cost of attendance worthwhile to the entity paying for it.

      2. Library Land*

        +1. Big University Library checking in here too. This is normal. I’m not sure if you’re unionized or not but that plays a big part here. Librarians have professional development funds to cover their expected conferences/classes/memberships but the professional development funds for staff are completely different and cannot cover the same range. (For a personal example, as staff I can get the cost of registration covered but not a hotel.) It sucks, 100%.

        I wouldn’t go to your boss and tell them their not being equitable or fair, but I don’t see the harm in asking for clarification on how you can use professional development funds in the future. Also, if you have a handbook, check that out too.

  49. Talvi*

    What do you do when a job posting doesn’t ask for a cover letter? Do you just omit it entirely, or put some version of it in the text of the email, or something else?

    Context: there’s an academic library job that is asking for applicants to submit 1) their resume and 2) a list of 3 references, as a single pdf via email, with no mention whatsoever of a cover letter – and I’m not sure what the best thing to do in this situation is. Normally the email I send my application materials with is very brief, but that seems insufficient if I’m not including a cover letter as part of the application materials.

    2. wait wait don't freeze me*

      If they don’t ask for it, assume they don’t want it. This isn’t a case of them not knowing cover letters exist. They know. They aren’t asking for one.

      If you’re sending an e-mail (as opposed to uploading to a system), then by all means write something good in the e-mail. But don’t put a cover letter in that single pdf.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I would include a cover letter. The only exception is if cover letters are unusual in that industry.

      1. Sleepy Librarian*

        They’re not unusual in academic libraries at all… I find it odd that this job doesn’t require one! I even require one for student positions. (That said, when I was hired over 10 years ago, I didn’t have to submit one. But I was young and didn’t think twice about it.)

    4. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’d probably just put a cover letter in the body of the email, which is where I put it anyway unless they specifically say not to include one or say to include a cover letter as a pdf attachment.

  50. Nervous Accountant*

    Going out in a blaze of glory

    So, I came back to work this week. I’m officially supervisor now. Tax season started, jumping right in to 60 hour workweeks. For some reason this feels way rougher than last year.

    In other news, this happened last night. I didnt’ see the actual incident but the aftermath and was filled in.

    There’s htis guy in the office who evokes lots of emotions in people, ranging from amusement to disgust. I wrote about him starting in 2016 as “Creepy Coworker.” the creepiness went away, and he’s now known as the Office Farter (OF). Constantly complains about how annoying other people are and emails upper mgmt all the time. He doesn’t report directly to me, but I try to help him when I can. Upper mgmt doesn’t take his complaints very seriously (like his complaints are “this person hums too loud, breathes too loud etc”).

    Anyway, “Hero” was sitting next to him for 3 months. He was pretty quiet and nice guy, seemed super chill….Until last night. he went off on him. I’m told he pointed out all his annoying traits, and there was flipping off. It was his last day so he went out in a blaze of glory I guess?

    The whole interaction was only a few seconds but people were watching and cracking up.

    Anyway, now it’s a big HR thing.

    Personally, it was super satisfying to hear about this but I know it wasn’t right for him to do that.

    1. Boredatwork*

      Congratulations on the promotion! I have no advice to offer, other than if you ever quit I really hope you do the same thing!

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Thank you! It’s the same work I’ve been doing for months, but now I have an actual title…lol.

        As tempting and satisfying as that sounds….I know better. LOL

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          And the proper pay, right?????!!!

          I’m cackling over Hero’s exit. Been there. Double laugh for HR acting like they can do much except I guess not be a reference in the future. I’m sure Hero wasn’t planning on that anyways, he was only there 3 months?

    2. Nessun*

      Congrats on the promotion! And sympathy for the tax season work week. (I’m not an accountant but I work for a Big 4, and I know it’ll be crazy here soon enough.)

  51. Moving to the Beach*

    Advice on how to respond when your employer requests a longer notice period after resigning? I have a new job lined up out of state after leaving a stressful and toxic workplace (yay!) but my employer stated that he is dissatisfied with my offer of the standard two week notice period. I do not have a contract requiring me to give a longer notice period, and my employer stated that he would like for me to keep working for at least another month, which I cannot accommodate. What scripts could I use during conversation if he insists that I keep working for another month? Saying “I can work until X date” or “I plan on leaving on X date” only seems to encourage him to complain further about how he cannot hire and train a new employee within a two week time frame. Any suggestions? I work in a law firm in an administrative/assistant position, and am not an attorney. Also, I am not currently working on any projects with critical deadlines in the near future (and, even if I were, the other employees would be capable of completing it). Any suggestions?

    1. Works in IT*

      When the manager at my soul crushing cashier job said “if your new job doesn’t start until halfway through the month you can keep working until then” I laughed at her and told her my last day was the 31st, as written on the letter I gave her.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      “I’m sorry, but X will have to be my last day.” Repeat as necessary without the “I’m sorry.”

      he cannot hire and train a new employee within a two week time frame.

      For most office jobs no one can hire a replacement that fast. A month to get the new hire hired is optimistic IMO. Whoever they hire is probably going to want to give 2 weeks notice anyway. Don’t try to educate your employer, though. Just keep saying what will be your last day.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      It makes my eye twitch when people say that they can’t hire and train a new employee during a two week notice period. That isn’t the point. And if you were required to stay through a training period, you would be giving six months notice.
      I would say this:
      “Since I am moving out of state, I have a lot that I need to get done in order to move forward. I am not able to work past X date. I will spend my time creating a manual to make training your new higher easier.” If he keeps saying that, just say “I’m sorry, that’s not possible” and repeat as necessary. Make sure you have something in writing giving your notice period, and make sure that someone in your HR office, and you, has a copy of it. That way if this boss is called for a reference, then he won’t be able to say that you quit without adequate notice.

      1. Moving to the Beach*

        Thanks for all of the advice! I plan to keep saying “X will be my last day…”

        “He cannot hire and train a new employee within a two week time frame” really puts things in perspective. Since my employer is not reasonable enough to understand that he cannot hire and train someone that quickly, he is certainly not going to be reasonable and accept a standard two week notice period.

        If he throws a tantrum or continues to argue, then I will accept that he is probably not going to give me a good reference if needed in the future, and leaving ASAP would not be a problem for me.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Tell your employer the notice period isn’t intended to give employers enough time to hire and train a new person – it’s intended for the outgoing employee to wrap up any outstanding projects and to possibly document their processes for the next person who will take on their role. You will be leaving on the date you gave him – it’s not an offer, and it’s not optional. Thank him for the experience you were able to get, and then carry on with your day.

    5. Foreign Octopus*

      “I’m sorry, but my final day must be X. I will ensure that all of my work is left in order so that it will be easy for the next person to pick up, but I’m not able to stay to help train my replacement due to my new job.”

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      Don’t give him any reasons you can’t work past X, because that only gives him something to argue with. Just keep repeating “I can only work until X.” You might address his complaints with “I’m sorry, I can’t stay longer to assist you with that.”

    7. ADKay*

      Your employer is an entitled ass. Two weeks’ notice is standard practice in the business world–it literally doesn’t matter whether he is “dissatisfied” with it.

    8. Lily Rowan*

      If you’re able to listen to the podcast, this week’s episode has a discussion of this exact situation! Or, actually a worse situation, but the advice will be the same.

      And seriously, even if you gave six weeks’ notice, he wouldn’t be able to hire and train a new employee. This is not your problem, it is just the way the working world works.

    9. WellRed*

      I am always surprised by people thinking they can be held hostage at their old job (or in a meeting or whatever). hold firm. also, notice periods are not meant for the employer to have lots of time to hire and train a replacement.

    10. Schnoodle HR*

      I love it. He doesn’t accept your “offer?” It’s not an offer, it’s a fact! Only toxic places do this, know that this last stress he’s putting on you is just a reflection of a terrible environment and confirms your need to leave. In two weeks. No later.

    11. Free Meerkats*

      You – My last day is X.
      Employer – Surely you can work until X=2 weeks.
      You – No.

      PRN

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He’s obnoxious. Just stay firm to “my last day is X” and chug along right through his lake of tears to your new gig in 2 weeks

      I have given 2 weeks and gone back for my most beloved of bosses to help train. It’s because I adore them and they aren’t cry baby manipulative jerks like this dude.

      Fly free, birdie! He won’t be your problem for much longer.

    13. Not A Manager*

      Just because someone else has a problem, doesn’t mean it’s your job to solve it.

      “My employer stated that he is dissatisfied with my offer of the standard two week notice period.” This doesn’t need a response.

      “My employer stated that he would like for me to keep working for at least another month, which I cannot accommodate.” Response: “I’m sorry, I can’t accommodate that. My last day needs to be __.”

      “If he insists that I keep working for another month?” Response: “I’m sorry, I can’t work for another month.”

      “Saying ‘I can work until X date’ or ‘I plan on leaving on X date’ only seems to encourage him to complain further about how he cannot hire and train a new employee within a two week time frame.” This doesn’t need a response.

      The only things you need to respond to are statements/requests/inquiries about your last date. And the response can be the same no matter how often the issue is raised. Anything else? Not your circus, not your monkeys.

    14. Artemesia*

      Don’t give it a second thought. You are not an indentured servant. ‘I’m sorry, that won’t be possible. My last day is February Whatth as I am committed to begin the new position then.’ Period and simply don’t discuss it further. If they badger you, it is ‘That won’t be possible but are there particular things you would like me to focus on in the last two weeks to make the transition easier for the office?’ Period.

  52. Works in IT*

    If I’m not hired on as a full employee soon, what would be the best way to put “I’m looking for a job because I’m tired of getting no benefits while they try to make plans to find room in the budget to buy out my contract from the contracting agency, when the contracting agency is paying me half what the organization pays.”

    Because seriously, getting fed up with this arrangement. Admittedly I agreed to the no benefits part, but that was after discussing it with other contractors who worked for this contracting agency and they told me the benefits are not worth the cut in paycheck for what you get. And after I told the manager who was negotiating with the contracting agency to bring me on that I could not answer calls between 8 and 3 because I would be working they called me anyway and I only had one minute to agree to everything or I wouldn’t be able to start for another month and no way was I staying in dead end cashier job another second.

      1. valentine*

        You mean “another second into words”? And you agreed to no benefits in your current job in order to escape your job as a cashier?

        Move on and say it wasn’t a good fit and you’re looking for a permanent position. Do you even really want to stay there?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you have to put it to anyone? If you’re talking about your current employer, you don’t need to tell them why you’re leaving, just that you got a new job. And if you’re talking about your new potential employer, you can simply say you’re contracting right now and are looking for a full-time position.

      1. Anonysand*

        Agreed. My previous position was as a contractor and those are almost the exact words I used. Nevermind the fact that I was resentful for the lack of benefits and zero acknowledgment of my work as a contractor (in addition to the yearly anxiety about my contract being renewed), all that was needed to be said was that “while I enjoy my current position as a contractor, I’m looking for something that is full-time and longer term.” Then when I gave notice, I told my supervisor that I had been offered a full-time job elsewhere and was excited about the opportunity. No one else asked any questions.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I wouldn’t tell them. I’d just start looking.

      This is what I did in my old job. I was brought in on a temporary three month contract and the owner of the company said that I would have a full time contract at the end of the three months but he just kept rolling the contract over and over. I figured if he had valued me as an employee, he would have made the effort to fulfil his promise. When I resigned, I mentioned the contract as one of the reasons for why I was leaving in the hope it helped the next person.

    4. fposte*

      I agree with Anonymous Educator. What you want to say is understandable, but it’s not going to have the effect that you hope–instead they’ll be able to dismiss it as a rant. Whereas if you just say that you’re leaving for a permanent position elsewhere, you’ll make the same point less dismissibly.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      So I totally understand the frustration, but it’s the not the company’s fault you don’t like your arrangement with the contracting company that you signed up for. It’s not even your agency’s fault that they are paying you under the conditions you agreed to. I wouldn’t let that frustration show to either of them. That’s not likely to get you anywhere.

      Start looking for another job. The worst thing that happens is you get a full time job.

      Seriously, either you find a new company to work for without the contractor middleman, you find a new contractor with better benefits, or you get hired by the company you are working with now.

    6. Joielle*

      My husband was in this exact situation a few years ago. He started looking, got another offer, and then basically said to his boss, “Look, I have another offer on the table with better pay and benefits but I’d rather stay here. If you can hire me full-time I’d love to stay on – otherwise, I’ll have to take this offer.” He was hired as a full-time employee the following week. He was a very high-output employee in an understaffed department and his boss really didn’t want to lose him, which played a big part, of course.

      I don’t think a threat to start looking means much, but if you have another actual offer that you’d leave over, you’ll have leverage if you’re a strong employee.

  53. Starting my First Job*

    I’m thrilled to be starting my first Real Job in two weeks. I’m very excited, for many reasons as it is my dream job (writing), ten minutes from my home, good pat to cut my student loans a bit, etc. also health insurance and since I get 6-10 mingraines a month without my preventative medication that’s pretty important. My problem is that I can be very energetic and enthused in interviews to display my utter passion. On average I’m more laid back, chill, and calm. I’m not nearly so talkative. When it comes time to really start working, how do I show I’m just as passionate and eager to impress without the overall pep of Interview Me?

    Other random question- I know there’s a joke about walking in 10 minutes late with a Starbucks but is it okay if I come in early with Starbucks or does that still look bad

    1. Drax*

      If you are on time, no one is going to care about that coffee in your hand :) Bonus points if you are early with that coffee in hand

      It’s very very normal for someone to interview energetically and then be quietly observing for the first few weeks as they settle in, no one is going to think that’s weird as long as you are asking for clarification when you need it and are friendly when you are talking to people.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      Congrats! Also, please chill. Nobody expects you to be your interview self 24/7, and nobody begrudges you your caffeine.

      Just make sure you’re alert and engaged, ask questions when necessary, and solicit feedback when there’s a natural opening for it. Much more passion, and I’d be afraid of coming across as over the top… good luck! I’m sure you’ll do fine!

    3. Tinker*

      Far as I know, the joke about coming in 10 minutes late with Starbucks is that Starbucks often takes ~10 minutes to acquire, and hence the implication is that the person had a choice between arriving on time and arriving with a luxury coffee product and selected the latter.

      1. Nessun*

        I actually watched this happen once and could not believe the chutzpah involved…we were at a group meeting which most people had to fly to get to, and the Big Boss was in the room with us (only 20 people in total) – in walked two junior staff, almost 20 minutes late, with Timmie’s coffee in hand. And then they apologized by saying “the lineup was REALLY long”. Boss’s eyebrows hit the roof, but he waited until later to explain why that wasn’t a good reason to be late!

      2. Venus*

        I have an unusual opposite circumstance to this because I take public transit, and it now has GPS, so if the bus is going to be really late then I will go and get myself a coffee.

        But I’m also not stupid – on the very occasional rare circumstance where I am late for a meeting and then decide to get a drink I make sure that I drink it before arriving! This situation typically applies to my workday, and I have no set start time so no one cares if I walk in with a drink.

        … although I recently bought a refillable cup, so it’s now impossible for someone to know if I’m drinking tap water or a store-purchased hot drink.

    4. BlueWolf*

      Check out Alison’s podcast as she just did an episode about starting a new job that you’ll probably find really helpful.

    5. Artemesia*

      Plan your first month to impress. You observe the norms of the office so you don’t violate them. You show up a bit early. You make sure people see you enthusiastically working. You make the effort to be a little more outgoing in your case. Whatever will project the image of a hard working energetic employee. The first impression is very powerful and once it is made you can begin to be yourself. But always show up a bit early especially if you are carrying in that Starbucks. Little things like not being constantly 5 minutes late do a lot to forge the impression people have of you before you have impressed them with the quality of your work.

  54. breathing into paper bag*

    I had a bad situation with an employee who should’ve been fired years ago a few months back, and it ended as well as it could have when employee took another job. Great! Except now I’m realizing that as a team, there’s like… a deficit of trust and good faith that I have to try to rebuild with the rest of the department. Which I can do. But it’s exhausting and I’m feeling the burnout less than a year into this new job. The employee situation took so much out of me and I still have the baggage to deal with and I don’t know if I’m scrappy enough for this. I’m just tired.

    1. MountainMeg*

      Have you read the book Radical Candor? I just finished and it changed the way I see myself as a new leader.

      To your question, though, I get it. I went through something similar a few months ago and we’re starting to normalize as a team. My approach was to sit the whole team down after the person left and be as candid with them as I could. I said something like “It’s come to my attention that Severus was hard to deal with and negative. I want to let you know that I realize I should have probably acted sooner. I sometimes err on the side of caution and care too much and it’s something I’m working on. I am committed more than ever to making our team a place where we all feel relatively comfortable, safe and productive and I need your help to do this. What are some ways you think we can do this?” Then I just listened and took notes. They came up with some great ideas, some more realistic than others, but we’ve worked to implement what we can. I think more than anything it served to show them that I’m human, I admitted I was wrong and I’m willing to listen and learn. My goal is to let it help us build a more collaborative environment where we all openly communicate, and so far so good!

      1. breathing into paper bag*

        Thank you. Seriously, this reply is so wonderful and I’m ordering a copy of Radical Candor now. I just posted this to vent, not really expecting anyone to read or reply, so I appreciate the empathy. It’s a good reminder that situations like this are really not unique to me, and other people get past it, and I will too. Congrats on handling a tough situation as gracefully as you did! I’m glad you’re seeing the improvements thanks to your good work as manager.

  55. Curious Cat*

    Low stakes question. I work in a cubicle-type layout and a cleaning staff will go around after hours to wipe down desks, vacuum, etc. For the past couple months when I come in the morning, all of my papers have been pushed every which way, some things are knocked on the floor, things are shifted around out of place. My planner has been flipped to a new page, or shut, or one time had some sort of cleaner spilled on it. I appreciate that we have a cleaning staff, but truly it just makes my mornings frustrating to spend time rearranging my things. (And I’m not a fan of someone going through my planner or my other odds and ends).

    Do you think there’s a polite way for me to leave a note on my desk that I don’t need my desk cleaned? If I knew who cleaned in my area I’d let them know personally, but I’m afraid I don’t know who does it.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think “I don’t need my desk cleaned, thanks!” is polite enough. The question is will they notice/read it, and are they authorized to not clean your desk.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Management has hired the service to clean. You can go to management, raise your concerns that the cleaning is not going well (same as if they weren’t replacing TP or emptying trash).
        I’d raise it to the person in charge of such things.
        Sometimes it’s that a new person needs more training or something, and your note won’t actually re-train. If they even read it, because they shouldn’t be reading stuff on your desk anyway, really.

        1. Curious Cat*

          Good points from both of you, thanks. Especially about whether or not the person is authorized to *not* clean, and if they just haven’t been trained enough. I can definitely reach out to our operations manager mention this to him. Hopefully it would get resolved.

        2. M*

          Just keep in mind here: it’s far more likely that the cleaning staff isn’t being paid for the amount of time they *actually* need to clean, and so are rushing tasks that they can rush (moving papers into a haphazard pile instead of carefully lifting and replacing them as they go, etc). That’s simply not their fault, and telling management that you think they’re making a mess of your desk is just going to get someone paid minimum-wage-at-best yelled at for something they can’t fix.

          Ask for them to skip your desk, or develop a habit of putting papers away/in a draw/in a box every night. The cleaner likely has a less pleasant, worse paid job than you, and while it’s frustrating to have your things pushed around carelessly, they’re unlikely to be doing it to be mean/make a mess of your things. Focusing on that is likely to make it a lot easier to deal with.

          1. valentine*

            But who will notice if they don’t clean a desk full of papers, which is better than leaving a mess? If they’re obliged to clean desks, the employees should be asked to leave them ready for cleaning product, but not daily.

      2. Joielle*

        I might go just a bit more forceful (but still polite) – “Please don’t clean my desk – thank you!” Just in case the cleaner thinks “well they don’t NEED their desk cleaned, but I did everyone else’s, so I better do this one too to be safe.” Make it at least 8.5″x11″ and in a bright color if you can.

        If that does the trick, great, but if not, I’d start with your direct supervisor and see if they can pass a message to the cleaning staff or if they know who can.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      At a previous job, I discovered the hard way that I was allergic to the stuff the monthly cleaners used to wipe down desks.

      I left a note on my desk asking for it to not be cleaned due to sensitivities, and *also* followed up with my supervisor, who let the appropriate people know.

  56. Anon anony*

    I had a phone interview scheduled and I was on webex waiting for it to start. 10 mins. later I received an email with the interviewer stating “technical issues” and wanting to re-schedule. I know it’s Friday and very chilly here in the Midwest, but is this a bad sign? In the past, when I had interviewers flake, I never heard back from them.

    1. Curious Cat*

      I’d take what they told you at face value! They very well may have had technical issues, it happens sometimes. Goodness knows I’ve had my fair share of problems with webex and had to cancel meetings or push them back because I couldn’t get my login to work, or the system decided to crash. Did they send you a specific date to reschedule, or ask you for your schedule? If not, I’d follow up on Monday or Tuesday.

    2. Anonysand*

      Have there been other red flags in the process? If not, I would take it at face value. We had a lot of webex issues at LastJob, and those types of things can happen to even the most well-oiled office. It’s also a better sign that the interviewer contacted you quickly rather than just going silent. I would reschedule and see what happens then.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t think your interviewer flaked. It seems like that she tried to call you on time and encountered technical issues and pretty much immediately let you know that she was having technical issues (not “technical issues”).

      I don’t consider this as a bad sign at all. You seen like you expect to be lied to. Are you coming from a toxic environment?

    4. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Assume good faith unless they’ve personally given you reasons to suspect otherwise. Technical difficulties with web or phone conferencing is a normal aggravation and it’s easier to reschedule something non-urgent than try to find a way around it.

    5. Not Today Satan*

      I’d be annoyed. Why couldn’t she just call you? But I don’t think there’s any nefarious reasoning behind it, other than feeling a bit too entitled to your time.

    6. Existentialista*

      Heck no! These happen all the time. Even at my large, global company, we frequently have technical issues, including periods with no internet and no phones, especially since a recent security “upgrade”. Not a bad sign.

  57. Manager salary poll*

    Going anon here just in case.

    Manager poll: How much say do you have in whether your direct reports get raises or promotions?

    I’m a bit frustrated that I used to have a say on both. Now I can at least recommend someone for a promotion, and as long as I build the case, my boss will support me to try and make it happen. But I get ZERO say on who should get a raise and how much any more. Senior management has taken tighter control over the last couple of years, and part of that means that raise decision-making is made at the very highest levels even for the most junior employees. The most I can do is try to keep my boss as aware as possible of what I think of my direct and indirect reports’ performance so that she can advocate for raises of the right amounts for the right people (or no raise where appropriate), but I feel like the raises that happened this year don’t really reflect the relative performance of everyone on the team.

    I much prefer the old system, in which I was given a target percentage that I was supposed to hit for my group as a whole, and I had a lot of discretion as to who should get more or who should get less so that we reached the target percentage while rewarding people differently based on their contributions.

    1. BRR*

      My employer is like this. My current manager hasn’t said much about this but my old manager HATED it.

  58. Person from the Resume*

    “I’m sorry, but X will have to be my last day.” Repeat as necessary without the “I’m sorry.”

    he cannot hire and train a new employee within a two week time frame.

    For most office jobs no one can hire a replacement that fast. A month to get the new hire hired is optimistic IMO. Whoever they hire is probably going to want to give 2 weeks notice anyway. Don’t try to educate your employer, though. Just keep saying what will be your last day.

  59. Whomst amongst you?*

    A question for readers: How many of you have “job hopped” and survived or are doing fine career wise? I read a lot about the horrors of job hopping on here and recognize it can be perceived as a real problem, but I also am hearing and seeing more often that people are not as appalled by it as they used to be (maybe in a smaller town or more conservative area.) I’m considering leaving a job for legitimate reasons and wanted to know if others have been fine in their hopping.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I personally haven’t, but I know someone who has (1 year, 1 year, 2 year). She was still able to get jobs, and is currently happy at the one she has now (which she’ll probably stay at for at least 3 years). It was just a lot easier for her to get a job after the 2-year stint than after the 1-year ones.

      1. Artemesia*

        I think it depends on the norms of the field. I know someone in a tecky field who had a series of one year jobs and has moved on to another easily.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I also am hearing and seeing more often that people are not as appalled by it as they used to be

      What industry are you in? I know in the tech industry, it’s actually quite common to “job-hop.” It isn’t frowned upon at all (unless you’re the CEO).

      1. Whomst amongst you?*

        Public health. I don’t think it’s uncommon in my field now but definitely have a lot of places where you don’t leave your position unless you retire or die. I just have been catching up on AAM and job hopping is emphasized as a big no-no. Tech does seem to be exception for that though!

    3. gbca*

      How do you define hopping? Earlier in my career I did a fair amount of hopping and turned out fine. I was really surprised at how much employers did not care at all about the hopping. Here’s my timeline, with reasons for leaving each role:

      Job #1 – 1 year (left because it was a bad fit and I got a great opportunity elsewhere in a totally different field)
      Job #2 – 2 years (left because management sucked)
      Job #3 – 1.5 years (laid off as a direct result of financial crisis)
      Job #4 – 6 months (got VERY lucky and hired right after layoff in same job function, but took a huge paycut; next job got me back to my previous pay level)
      Job #5 – 1.5 years (left to get MBA; jobs 2-5 were all the same at different companies and I wanted to do something else)
      2 years off for full-time MBA
      Job #6 – current job, been here 5 years

      1. Whomst amongst you?*

        Oh, this is good to see and hear! I’m still in my mid-20s and I think my early career is shaping up to look that way. I held a “professional” job after grad school but had steady internships and fellowships during school. I would like to find a place to work where I want to stay for more than 2 years. I guess based off the common job hopping timeline, which is 2 years or less at each job. Thanks for sharing!

        1. gbca*

          Sure thing! One thing worth mentioning – I no longer include job #1 or #4 on my resume. Since #1 was only a year and has nothing to do with the work I do now (or pre-MBA), it doesn’t make any sense to keep it on. And job #4 was so short. On my resume I use years only, not months, so it doesn’t appear that I have any real gaps when I leave those out (and in fact, job #3 ended in early 2009 and job #5 started in late 2009, so it doesn’t appear as a gap at all). So you might want to think about streamlining your resume to the extent that it makes sense.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      My cousin has had about 15 different jobs in ten years but she’s still able to get jobs. She does, however, work in the retail/customer service industry but she’s recently become manager of a late night bistro. She mentioned that the owner asked about her jobs but she was able to spin it well enough. I suppose it really depends on the industry.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      My boss made the comment to me the other day that this is the longest job he’s ever held. He’s been here 5 years. He’s got about 10 years in age on me. So job hopping isn’t the problem I think it is, obviously. But them again it seems like the players at my level in this area do a round of job swapping every 3-5 years.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I don’t think anyone would define “job hopping” as every 3-5 years. It’s more like a bunch of 1-year stints.

        I’ve never held a job for more than 5 years. I definitely wouldn’t consider myself a job hopper.

    6. Ursula*

      So I haven’t technically job hopped, but I was forced to temp by graduating during the worst part of the recession and temping was all there was. It absolutely impacted my career. I literally had an interview where they asked me if I really wanted to work someplace long term, and when I explained why I’ve been temping, it was clear they didn’t believe me. And this was despite the fact that, for temp temp jobs, my tenure was actually quite long in each (shortest was 4 months, most were 9-12 months).

      It took me 9 years after graduation to get a permanent position (although I worked at one “temp” job for 4 years because the tech industry is evil. I still had to deal with having no benefits, including close to no paid time off and no paid holidays the whole time I was there, in addition to never knowing if my contract would be renewed next year).

      So, it is risky. But the stigma around it is a lot less that it used to be, and there are a decent number of employers who don’t care. You are going to run into some that still do, though.

    7. MB*

      I’ve never held a job for more than 4.5 years (which was now two jobs ago). Six months ago, I was offered a job at a 40-percent increase from the job I had been in for exactly 2 years. I’ve had plenty of 1-year and under stints, too. I’m now doing better than I ever have and frankly downright amazing for my city.

      For what it’s worth, I’m in my late 40s.

    8. Deb Morgan*

      Job #1 – One year (toxic office, underpaid)
      Job #2 – Three years (hilarious retail, underpaid)
      Job #3 – One and a half years (mildly dysfunctional office, underpaid a little bit)
      Job #4 – Current position (started 4 months ago as a temp, now permanent, in a great office, actually earning a living wage)

      I should point out that I don’t really have a “career”, all of these jobs were in wildly different industries, and maybe the three years of retail saves me from being a “job hopper”? Things turned out okay for me (at least for now). Good luck to you!

    9. MissDisplaced*

      I’m a serial job hopper!
      Sometimes, it’s by choice (moving or just moving onward) sometimes not (layoffs & closings). Generally, my jobs have been in the 2-5 year range. Mostly, this has been an upward trajectory, with the exception of 2009-2010 crash.
      In my case, no, I do not feel job hopping has hurt my career. My most recent “hop” increased my salary by $50000 and gained better remote work privileges.
      But beware! I think this depends on career/industry norms AND location. I work in a fairly creative arena where you have to move on to move up. And job hopping seems to be better accepted in larger cities versus suburban or more conservative areas where people still tend to remain with their employers for 20-30 years. I found that out 10 years ago after a cross-country move.

    10. AshK434*

      I’m a job hopper and have always left jobs before reaching the 2 yr mark ( only one was a contract job) and in my last search I had an abysmal response rate to my applications. And when I do get interviews the length of my tenures is always mentioned.

  60. Batshua*

    So… two Tuesdays ago there was a notice of proposed removal.

    The day before yesterday I had an on-campus interview for a totally different job that paywise would be a lateral move.

    Yesterday I defended my employment status to the acting director.

    Legally, I think they have to transfer me instead of firing me because of the accommodations situation.

    I am trying to do my best at the boring filler job and wait patiently.

    Today is not the easiest day to do that; my thoughts are all over the place.

    If they let me stay employed (somewhere, anywhere), I have a few things I can file grievances about, but one issue at a time.

    I never thought I would be in this position, but I think everything is going to be some kind of okay?

    Oh! And there’s an ex-neuroendocrinologist (now he just does endocrine) outside Boston I’m hoping to see … this spring.

    I also reached out to an ADHD specialist who works specifically with adults who is over an hour and a half away.

    It’s totally worth it to see these two experts if they can help me get things sorted. I’m unsure that the new meds are doing anything useful… yet again.

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Hang in there! Finding the right ADHD solutions is SO HARD, but once you do life gets so much better! And hopefully the job situation stays stable/something better pops up out of the blue.

  61. Drax*

    I have a two fold question – I am a maternity leave coverage where the woman isn’t expected back until July but I have hit my max and need to leave this job. They’re in financial distress and I can’t handle the stress of being on a sinking ship (if this company makes it to March it will be a miracle). I realize I’ll be putting this company in a tight spot and technically this is just doing business, but how do I stop feeling guilty about it? I said I’d cover for X amount of time, but I’m backing out before (no issues on contract, they breached first by putting us onto unpaid leave for 2 weeks with no notice)

    And the second – I found a job that seems perfect for me. It’s a set contract length, in the window of pay I’m looking for, and perfect for the skill set I want to transition to full time instead of part of it. This isn’t a ‘dream job’ but seems like an ‘excellent fit’ job. But the thing is – it’s a massive company. I’ve worked historically in smaller companies (office staff under 20 people, warehouse staff up to 100) and I’m wondering if that will hinder my application. Is it worth addressing? What kinds of things should I be expecting when transitioning from full autonomy (reporting directly to the owner with people reporting to me) to more corporate?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      To stop feeling guilty – Just think that the company would be in the same position if you got hit by a truck. You need to look out for yourself. Besides, by the time you job search and got an offer and gave notice, you probably won’t be leaving them without that much coverage anyway.

      Moving from small company to corporate – I’ve gone back and forth to both and there never were any questions personally. If they ask about it, just say that you want more room for growth and development that a larger company can offer. While smaller companies can feel more personal, there’s something I like more about working for corporate environments. Things are more “rigid” a lot of times, which I like. Smaller companies can change policies on a whim but most larger ones can’t. I think this is really beneficial if you are in a customer based role personally, but that’s just me.

    2. gbca*

      How much of a tight spot are you really putting them in if they’re a sinking ship anyway? If they’re worried about losing critical employees, they would pay them retention bonuses, as some companies do when they need to incentivize people to stay while they wrap up the business. The fact that they’ve already made you take an unpaid leave shows how shaky this business is. It’s not your responsibility to go down with the ship.

    3. WellRed*

      They put you on unpaid leave for two weeks with no notice. There goes your guilt out the window. Maybe they’ll be grateful for you to leave now.

  62. Book Person*

    A light, quasi-work question from me:

    A colleague from my office is about to return from a leave, and we’re considering different benign pranks to set up in her office before she comes back (this is entirely within the culture of my office: while she was away, she enlisted the help of several colleagues to plant creepy toys around my office to “watch” me, etc). She’s coming back at a very busy time of year, though, so I don’t want to do anything disruptive–no filling her office with balloons or gift-wrapping all her equipment.

    Right now, I have an enormous and hideous picture frame to fill with a collage of Nic Cage pics, and one of those sequined pillows with his face on it. But this colleague made *an entire chandelier* out of creepy toys to hang above my desk, so I feel like I need to up my game. Any suggestions?

    1. Hailrobonia*

      Can you set up an additional monitor and chair at her work station and say that there is a new employee coming on board who will be sharing her work space?

      Another option in the Nic Cage theme would be to hide photos of him throughout her desk, etc. Number them “Nic Cage #1, Nic Cage #2, Nic Cage #4…” etc. but purposely skip #3. She might go nuts wondering “where is #3 lurking?”

      1. Book Person*

        She’s the big boss in this office, so the additional monitor/chair wouldn’t work (but on the plus side, I have a whole office of hers to work with), but I like the numbering idea! Thanks!

          1. valentine*

            If you could avoid pictures of Cage and other stalkers or abusers, that would be great. I assume you’re not going for real, skin-crawling creepiness.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If she has any personal photos in her office, cover them with photos of Nic Cage (you can print them on photo paper and use a post-it glue stick as adhesive, so it won’t affect the photo underneath).

      2. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, if you’re going with the Nic Cage theme, definitely replace every visible thing in her office with pictures of him! That would be hilarious.

        1. Batshua*

          PUT NIC CAGE ON THE MONITOR.

          (Sorry, I’m just wishing I was in a benign prank friendly work environment!)

          1. Lily Rowan*

            Suddenly, I am too, and I don’t even like pranks! But I’m looking around my office giggling at the idea of Nic Cage everywhere.

      3. Joielle*

        Yesssss this! Covering just people’s faces in photos with different faces is one of my favorite pranks. Especially since the person will inevitably think they’ve gotten all of them and then weeks later, find another Nic Cage face somewhere.

      1. Book Person*

        I’ll (un)fortunately be away on a business trip the week she comes back, but I expect thorough retribution in my own office if nothing else! We’re a few weeks out now, so I’ll hopefully have some manner of update in a month or so!

    4. Delphine*

      I would just go all out with the Nic Cage theme. Slip pictures everywhere–in between books, in drawers, peeking out of weird places. Put some in places she might not see for days.

      1. Book Person*

        You’ve now inspired me to tape pictures of him on the underside of the leaves of all her plants….

    5. sloth*

      My boss told me about a great one that happened to him once. He had a whiteboard wall in his office, and they photoshopped him into some pictures with Taylor Swift and hung them on the whiteboard with other pictures of her, connected with yarn lines and scribbled notes to look like a “stalker wall”. You could do that with Nic Cage!

    6. Troutwaxer*

      Take a screen shot of her monitor, hide all the icons, and make the screen shot her new wallpaper.

  63. Susan Calvin*

    The results of our (apparently now annual) org-chart remix are out, and while the lead position I applied for was indeed created, it went to a former team mate. Who is a likable and competent person, with a good bit more seniority than myself, so no hard feelings whatsoever – except that in the shuffle, I also ended up on that newly created team, rather than that of my current boss, which is intensely frustrating, because my personal loyalty to him easily outstrips my loyalty to the company in general, the way things are going.

  64. Lunch hour*

    Ok, so this has been argued with another coworker and I just want to find out what you guys think.
    We get a 1 hour lunch break, work 8am to 5pm. You can take it when you want (most take it at the expected lunch hours) as long as there’s coverage. My coworker argues that he’s not really hungry for most of the day, so he will eat towards the end of the day and take his lunch break from 4-5pm (we typically all leave the building for lunch to escape for a bit) and then leave for the day. Because everyone is usually in the office at this time, there’s always coverage.

    But… I don’t know, something feels weird about it though I know he’s technically correct. I guess I would feel weird that people who saw might think I’m leaving an hour early from work rather than taking a delayed lunch break and then going home after that. Thoughts?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t see anything wrong with it. I’ve worked at lots of places where people have left at 4 for various reasons (they start earlier, they don’t take a lunch, they have a shorter work schedule, they work a longer day later in the week). It’s cool that your employer is flexible about it.

    2. irene adler*

      I take a very late lunch too. Works for me.
      The work gets done so no one has issues.
      I’m also exempt.

      Does this late lunch fly in the face of labor laws that govern your area? Some laws say that lunch for full time employees must start no later than the end of the 5th hour of work (my understanding). That would be my only concern.

    3. CheeryO*

      So he comes back after the break and then leaves? That’s odd, but not as big of a deal as if he was using the break to leave an hour early. I kind of wonder if he is really on top of his game after six or seven hours without a real break, but if he’s performing well and there’s enough coverage, I don’t really see an issue with it.

      1. KatieKat*

        This would be my concern. If he’s eating at his desk and essentially taking breaks-in-all-but-name at other points in the day, or if his focus is seriously lagging by midafternoon, that’s a problem.

        If his performance isn’t suffering I’d still be concerned for his health on a personal level (brains need breaks!) and possibly annoyed that it feels like he’s getting something slightly special (annoyed with out any real standing, that is) but try to let it go.

        In my state (California) this wouldn’t fly for hourly workers anyway.

    4. fposte*

      As long as that’s legal in your state (it wouldn’t be everywhere) and your manager’s okay with it, sure, why not?

      1. Tmarie*

        I can think of a situation that would be bad. Are there other people that have to “cover” his job tasks when he is at lunch? What happens if the person who has to cover for this late lunch break has an emergency and needs to leave at 4:15. It’s a really really slippery slope for most people.

        1. fposte*

          I think those are a manager’s concerns, though. The OP is wondering this as a co-worker. (I also think what happens when planned coverage is available wouldn’t change whether it happens at noon or 4. Somebody else covers or phones go to voice mail, or whatever the equivalent would be.)

    5. Joielle*

      In my office, we have flexible lunch times but this is explicitly not permitted, because yeah, it’s just leaving an hour early. If everyone did it, it would be a problem, so we solve the problem by letting nobody do it. (If everyone could leave an hour early in your office with no problem, then I think it would be fine for this one guy to do it, but if not, he doesn’t get to be the only one doing it.)

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, that’s where my issue would be as a manager (that and the law, obviously). Unless I could offer this widely, I wouldn’t do it. But for a co-worker, as long as I’m not being left in the lurch, I wouldn’t care.

      2. Artemesia*

        I think most people who use this ploy to leave an hour early would really be eating and taking breaks during the day just not a formal lunch hour. We occasionally has people ‘work through lunch’ in order to leave early fr a particular reason — kid program, hair appointment, whatever — but not routinely. Lots of places would not let someone take off early every day by claiming to not take lunch hour.

    6. Kathenus*

      Pretty much echoing what others have hit on – depends on labor laws in your area and management protocols. We used to be allowed to let people take a half hour lunch and leave a half hour early with management approval. A couple of years ago they stopped that practice (not for a good reason, but because some areas couldn’t accommodate it due to work needs, so due to fear of people complaining ‘why can they do it if we can’t’, they took it away from everyone).

    7. Someone Else*

      Do you have a written policy about this? All my jobs have explicitly prohibited leaving your lunch break to the end of the day in order to leave early. It’s counter to the spirit of the notion of a meal break. Even if it’s not written policy I’d expect most managers to be very not cool with this. Also if the person is hourly, depending on where you live, doing this might violate labor laws, and on the one hand, that’s there to protect him, but also puts his employer in a bad position they’d likely rather not be in. So I’d expect the higher ups to put the kibosh on that right quickly.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      By telling him that if he wrote another message like that again, he would be fired. I’d also send him on sexual harassment training. Whether I fire him, I don’t know: it would depend on how he responded to our conversation.

        1. fposte*

          Maybe, but I don’t think that would change my response to the actual post. I can simultaneously think “You seriously dug through somebody’s personal info to find me?” and “I need to do something about this.”

          I don’t know what the protocol at my employer would be, tbh; since we’re state, we probably can’t fire somebody for off-hours speech, but that post would be a bombshell in my department that would need to be handled.

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          I agree with fposte. I might raise an eyebrow at someone sending it to me but if there is evidence that he wrote what he did, it wouldn’t change my response.

        3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          In this case, I wouldn’t.

          If they’d had to do some serious doxxing and build an evidence trail to prove that xXx_DarkStarWarrior_xXx on some two-bit forum was actually my VP John Q. Smith, I would probably side-eye the messenger, although I’d still at least have a serious talk with the guy. That it was John Q. Smith under his Facebook account, I would consider further evidence against him, because that’s extremely brazen, and no kidding people are gonna take this back to your employer.

          In fact, in my field, anyone licensed is going to have their name, licenses, and current employer available online — doing horrible things under your real name has a very straight-line connection to your firm.

          1. Joielle*

            This! It’s Facebook, with the guy’s full name and workplace clearly and readily available. If John Q. Smith can’t keep his rapey thoughts to himself in that situation, that reflects even worse on him.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed.

        That he did this on Facebook, knowing that it would post with his full name and all his connections, is (at least to me) very nearly the most appalling thing about the story. You expect a certain amount of jackassery out of people who can be anonymous or quasi-anonymous online, but the brazenness of connecting his real-life identity to his disgusting comments says a whole lot about how acceptable he thinks this kind of “joking” is, and as a boss or HR person, that’s what I’d be most concerned about.

    2. INeedANap*

      I don’t know that my organization would allow me to fire him for it, but we would be having an extremely serious conversation about how disturbing/inappropriate it was, and seriously I took it, and how seriously I expected HIM to take the mandatory sexual harassment training I’d be scheduling.

      I think the fact that a stranger contacted me would be an excellent example of how poorly he was representing the company (and, you know, humanity – but that’s beyond my reach) and probably would appreciate that it was a stranger, since that would give me more standing with my company to show what a problem it is.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Particularly because this guy is a VP, he probably has a code of ethics agreement in his contract that would allow for him to be fired for something like this. Hell, when I worked in a call center we had to sign a code of conduct and I do know a low level manager who got fired for something inappropriate done off the clock and it wasn’t nearly as inappropriate as this. I would guess that unless this guy works in a culture that already tolerates this type of behavior, he would be seriously taken to task if not fired. If it hit the major media it would be a disaster for the company.

      But if this guy weren’t a VP, I don’t know that most bosses or HR groups would fire them over it. I think that there is a good chance a talking to about what is appropriate would happen. And frankly, it should be reported. The man is a predator.

    4. Liane*

      Ew, gross. If I were Prudie I’d suggest also contacting the employer of the friend who posted *an intoxicated fellow passenger’s photo* on FB. Because this friend seems like someone who 1) doesn’t have good judgment (since they thought it was okay to post that picture) and 2)is okay with others making comments that are solidly on the Creepy > Alarming Spectrum. Neither of which is desirable in an employee.

    5. LCL*

      If this was reported to me about someone in my workgroup, I would be obligated to report to HR, and would do so. It might take some searching to report it to me, I’m not on twitter or facebook. I don’t know what HR would do with it. Probably hold interviews with us asking about his conduct.

    7. Crooked Bird*

      Just wanted to thank everybody for their comments on this one. My faith in humanity feels kinda restored.

      1. Suspendersarecool*

        Same here. I spent some time debating this on Slate yesterday and wondered if I’d somehow stumbled into a Breitbart forum.

  66. Parenthetically*

    My husband is a Spout Measurement Assistant, which is mostly field work. One of his coworkers, Fergus, a Lead Teapot Measurer, is just a couple months from retirement and has the retirement flu BIG time. Important note: on rainy days, Measurers at all levels can claim up to four hours’ pay if their work gets deluged out.

    Last week, three days in a row, my husband got home two to three hours early, because he was dropped off at home by Fergus since once they finished the job Fergus didn’t want to go back into the office — he specifically asked/told my husband not to go back in. One of those days was a Rain Pay claim, which meant he got paid to play with our kid all afternoon, but the other two days, he just didn’t get paid the rest of that time. For Fergus, who’s been at the company for decades and who is literally less than ten weeks from retiring, missing four hours of pay a couple times in a week is probably no biggie, but for us it really, really is.

    Two questions: is this… weird to anyone else, just shafting a lesser-paid, more-junior employee out of half a day’s pay? And, what, if anything, can be done about it? Does anyone have any scripts to recommend to talk to Fergus or their mutual boss about it?

    1. wait wait don't freeze me*

      It sounds like Fergus is driving. If this is a company car you’re using (not Fergus’s personal one), can your husband drive and drop Fergus off whereever and then go back to work? Otherwise, can your husband drive individually and not go with Fergus? Otherwise, can your husband just ask Fergus to drop him off at the office instead of at home? Unless Fergus has the authority to grant your husband the time off paid, Fergus should not be telling your husband to just take off.

      1. Parenthetically*

        We share a car, so this is Fergus driving, but it’s his personal vehicle. I’ll typically drop my husband off at the office or a meetup point, he and Fergus will drive to the job site together, and then Fergus will drop him off at home.

        Yeah, I agree he shouldn’t be telling him to just take off. Fergus asked/told my husband not to go back into the office… basically because Fergus didn’t want to look bad not going back into the office. Because it’s such a junior position and my husband’s a pretty easygoing guy, and it’s only happened twice, he hasn’t spoken up.

    2. Me*

      Hey Fergus. I’m sure you don’t realize, but when we end early and I don’t go back to the office, I forfeit 4 hours of pay. This is significant for me. I need to be able to work a full day. Can we drive separately, or I can drive and drop you off and then head back to the office myself?”

      If Fergus says no, then it’s absolutely elevate it. I kind of wonder if Fergus is claiming those hours as worked time…

      1. Parenthetically*

        See my response above. I’ll definitely encourage my husband to speak up if this happens again.

  67. Rabbit*

    Any thoughts on how to be realistic about a position that would represent a stretch in commitment and a change in area while still selling yourself at interview?

    I have passed the first round interview for a new job that would be a change in industry and a step up in terms of pace and pressure, with the potential for a significant amount of work travel. This does involve a significant pay increase as well….

    I am excited about the work and while I know the travel won’t be simple/fun jaunts I don’t have any problems with it – but then I swing back to convincing myself that I will never cope under the pressure and am just deluding myself when it comes to the other pieces. It’s a bit like impostor syndrome – except I don’t have the job yet! Any advice on how to think realistically about it all, and not give false hope to myself/Mr Very Senior Person who will be interviewing me next?

  68. Bye Academia*

    Yet another shutdown story.

    I had a grant due earlier this week to an agency that is currently closed. Despite being closed, all deadlines are being honored. We ran into a website issue trying to submit and couldn’t get it fixed in time. The only person who can put our application through late is currently furloughed, so we are in limbo until the shutdown ends. The exception may or may not be allowed; historically we would still be okay in a situation like this, but it’s up to the discretion of the program officer. And if this drags on for a really long time, who knows if the grant cycle will end up canceled. While I do feel grateful that my paycheck is not dependent on this grant, I need the grant funding to do my job properly.

    I know this is a drop in the bucket of bigger issues caused by the shutdown, for federal workers and for other citizens affected in downstream ways like me. But I just wanted to vent. I imagine we will be seeing more and more of these secondary effects the longer the shutdown continues.

    1. Not All*

      Not sure what agency/division you are applying with, but I know at mine:
      1) we won’t be enforcing this type of deadline
      2) almost all grants/financial assistance are on the chopping block because we’ve lost so much in fees there is going to be massive reprogramming of funding

      1. Bye Academia*

        It’s NSF.

        1) I really hope this ends up being true.
        2) I was afraid of that, even before the submission issue. I just have to do what I can and hope for the best since I really need the funding.

        Thanks for everything you do, whether you are furloughed right now or working. I can’t even imagine what a mess this all is for people behind the scenes.

        1. Nesprin*

          Grant officers are humans who want good applications in their pool and know that shutdowns make things very hard.
          After last furlough, I called my grant officer and explained that I couldn’t get my grant in in time due to the shutdown, but would they please still accept it. They said yes.

    2. Gumby*

      I mean, we just got an email today saying that due to the shutdown a deadline was being moved back a month and TPTB would get back to us when they re-opened. The original deadline was today. The email arrived? Today. After the re-opening.

      On one hand, great – we can use the extra time. OTOH, “Once again, things that could’ve been brought to my attention YESTERDAY!” (or, you know, last week).

  69. TacoBelle*

    Travel Expenses… opinions?

    (I’m in the UK too…)

    The company I have worked for the last 3+ years has always paid travel mileage that coincide with what the government would give you in a tax rebate (therefore you do not need to apply) vague rumours have it that they are stopping this although it’s not been officially put out there and it’s just a lot of miscommunication.

    The story is they will be paying for fuel you put in and then you can claim any difference through your tax (which is correct) however how can they quantify what amount of that full tank of fuel you used to go from a-b and how much it’s viable as some of the extra is for ‘wear and tear’

    Im due to put in a claim and I’m considering just doing it as usual and at the usual rate and seeing what happens as no one is being very clear on what the new process is.

    I also think it’s ridiculous to just suddenly change a policy but have no clear cut message on what it’s changed to… opinions?

    1. Bagpuss*

      I’d put it in as usual unless / until they come up with a new policy.

      If you put in the usual request and accounts (or whoever deals with it) queries it, then you can say that you haven’t been given any instructions to do it differently, and can they let you have a copy of the new rules / policy?

  70. Semaj*

    Can I get some advice from women who have grown in their career? I’m a young woman (mid-20s) in my third professional job since graduating college. This role is such a great fit and I’ve managed to ‘move up’ from where I entered the work force but I feel like I’m at an awkward growth point where I’d like to advance but I’m not sure I have the know-how or the poise.

    My supervisor recently set me up with a mentor and I’m wondering what sort of questions I can ask. The mentor is in a different field but the same department and a lot of things that run through my mind feel silly to vocalize. I struggle with things like commanding a meeting (especially surrounded by older coworkers), and being sure that in my communication I come off as polished and knowledgeable. I find myself often worrying that due to my age I won’t be taken seriously.

    I know that much of this will come with experience but I’d appreciate any tips you have! Books, podcasts, things I should look into? Any examples of mentorships you’ve had that helped you succeed in your career?

    1. Approval is optional*

      I think asking her about strategies for commanding meetings etc are absolutely ok – not silly at all. First meeting might be more of an informal get to know you one – but going with a list of career goals – short (such as the ones you mentioned) and long term – to discuss with her, and a list of ways you think she would be able to help you/what you want from the mentoring relationship, would be a good idea. Do you want her to be a sounding board, help you develop strategies, gives you tips on negotiating office politics etc . She will have her own ideas on what role she’ll play of course, so if there is a big disparity you’ll have to reconsider your needs and/or if she’s the right mentor for you.

    2. Coffee Owlccountant*

      I was you five years ago! Some immediate ideas:

      – For your industry/field, are there any professional certifications or licenses that would be a obvious next-step for your career? Similarly, what about membership in any professional societies or associations? These are sometimes things that take awhile to show a return, but the visibility of “Jane is working on her Llama Mastery Certification” can really help with people’s impression of you as an advancing leader.

      – Look around for opportunities to put yourself at the front of a room. Toastmasters is a common refrain, but even something like a theatre improv class may help you feel more comfortable when you are in control of a meeting or presenting. This can be especially helpful because if you’re anything like me, you are hitting some of the worst impostor syndrome right about now – you know enough to know all the things you don’t know, and it makes you second-guess yourself. Pretend that you are the expert that you really are!

      – All these questions you’re posting here? Are GREAT questions to ask your mentor! That is the point of a mentor! Hopefully your mentor is also a woman – what did SHE do when she was on the other side of the table? What advice did her mentors offer her? What next steps did she take?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I started working at 19 (right out of high school, I’m a Sept baby, so I’m on the older side). I was an accounting clerk. Which transitioned to an assistant bookkeeper within 6 months and by 25, I took over running a business for an ailing boss.

      I don’t subscribe to mentoring that is assigned but it’s a nice idea. My world involved becoming close to my bosses, owners of successful businesses and being their go-to person. It gave me a deep down and dirty look at the internal insides of their success and I could feed off of it.

      As you gain trust and a brilliant network, you get a foot into doors that would never have cracked open otherwise.

      Be confident but keep your humility. Surround yourself with strong people who want others to succeed, watch out for vultures who only want to wait to pick up your scraps.

      If a kid from a dilapidated trailer who didn’t go to college because her mom was scared giving the FASFA people her details would wreck her credit made it, you’ll be a-okay. Don’t be afraid of failure and don’t be afraid to try things.

      Older people aren’t all kooks who don’t want to take direction or learn from us. I’m 35 now and all my bosses have been my parents age. All of them have a respect for my knowledge and what I bring to the table. They know I’m there because I get things done and do it well. Anyone who is fussy is a speedbump. It’s their problem, not yours to deal with. They’ll self select out after awhile.

  71. Bomb Threat Update*

    Last week I posted about a bomb threat and that I thought my boss mishandled it. (We received the threat on Thursday for Friday; I found out about it Friday when I got to work and much of the office wasn’t there and someone told me people were working off site, some for previously scheduled meetings and some because of a bomb threat.) When I saw my boss on Tuesday (we had Monday off), she apologized to me for hearing it through the rumor/panic mill, and said that she thought her boss had reached out to me about it. So I feel better about it now.

    1. Construction Safety*

      Well, that tops my didn’t-get-called-about-the-cancelled-Christmas-party story.
      Overall, that’s pretty outrageous on a couple of levels.

    2. UtOh!*

      There is a time and a place for over-communicating, and this was it, your boss dropped the ball for assuming that someone else told you..not good! She’s your boss, she should get important information to all her staff and not make it someone else’s problem to handle.

  72. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    As the Hellmouth turns, so are the days of my working life…

    Let’s see, the War Against (Some) Children continues apace, with my manager reaching out to IT to see about blocking access to Fortnite and any other thing she thinks she’s seen the kids looking at in the Business Center. We also had a little rolling office chair stolen out of the Business Center, which caused her to fully flip out—residents have 24 hour access to the BC, but they no longer have 24 hour access to any chairs, they now have to check them out from the office when we are open, and stand when we are not. Additionally, my boss started yelling that she was going to put cameras in the vents, and actually said “I’ll put up that one I had in your office!” so… I guess the fact that she put surveillance up in my personal office space is now suddenly openly acknowledged?

    Things still keep getting moved on my desk when I am away from it—a flower that I put on my desk keeps getting moved from where I can see it to a spot behind me, a piece of paperwork that my boss asked me to set to the side and hold on to suddenly vanished right before she told me that she needed me to find and give her said paperwork, and my phone and accounting calculator keep getting swapped no matter how many times I put them back.
    In other news, a resident became enraged that he could not rent out our office and the pool for a “lingerie party.” He did not except that having said lingerie party on a day when we would not be open would not make letting him use our office and pool for this any more feasible. He was kind of dressed like the people who owned the really creepy strip club in Flashdance. It was very hard to keep a straight face. After the resident left our new maintenance supervisor took this as his opportunity to list every stripper who ever lived at a property where he worked and describe their physique in depth. This is not the worst case of oversharing, though, which still goes to him offering up the number of premarital sex partners his daughter had when asked to share a story about the worst thing one of his kids had ever done by my boss. The discussions in the office have started getting… well, very raunchy. I’m not a fan.

    I also had to have an almost hour long meeting with my boss on Wednesday, where I think I got “negged” and I definitely got gaslit before my boss demanded to know if I was looking for another job and said I owed it to her to tell her immediately. I was extremely startled, and wound up telling her that if I couldn’t get through a week without someone coming in and threatening to shoot one of us (with no repercussions!), or have my safety concerns taken seriously, or NOT have it shrugged off when I relay that a resident has followed my car off property and forced an angry interaction on me at a red light, I couldn’t exactly view my situation as being “good.” I also said that I thought it was ridiculous that I basically I am going to have to get a docotor’s note to use post-it notes since I am not neurotypical and I require them to stay organized/do my job.

    So. I am still not allowed to use post -it notes. Now I suddenly am getting a mentor because my boss says that she and my grandboss think I am struggling with my position. Also, my boss is now claiming that she spoke with the guy who threatened to shoot us all and he apologized, and just yesterday she said she was going to call the resident who followed me to the red light (before Christmas) and have words with her. I sort of doubt both of these things. I do not doubt that I probably need to get out of here very quickly. I’ve been applying like crazy, and it is only one week past when the people at the job that I really want said they would get back to me, so… fingers crossed for some movement soon.

    And for fans of the squirrels, I literally just got a call from a resident who says there are a few frolicking in his loft. Happy Friday!

    2. Youth*

      “residents have 24 hour access to the BC, but they no longer have 24 hour access to any chairs, they now have to check them out from the office when we are open, and stand when we are not”

      Whyyyyyyyy have these amenities and then make them impossible to use? I know by this point that your boss is completely nuts, but if I lived there, I’d be on my way out, stat.

      2. Karen from Finance*

        Right! As I was reading that I was wondering “how do people still live there?”

        But people have got to live somewhere, I suppose. Might as well.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      I feel like I say this every time, but wow. Also, I’m picturing your boss as a weirdly skinny, slightly greasy woman with very flat hair. Not sure why. And I am glad you are not letting Flash Dance have his party, because literally no one (except him) wants to see the kind of people that would come to his party. Ugh.

    4. Amber Rose*

      Working in a Hellmouth sounds exhausting. I still have my fingers and toes crossed that you get out of there, and then write a best seller based on your experiences.

      If you lived anywhere near here I’d offer you the job we have open.

    5. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Oh my god.

      Apparently I am in trouble with the VP for not running checks that 1) I did not know about, and 2) were never given to me to run.

      I asked my boss if she was going to tell the VP that I had never been given the checks. She dodged. I asked again. She dodged. I asked a third time, very explicitly. She said that she was not going to tell the VP anything she did not think she needed to know or anything that would bring further scrutiny to our office. So no.

      Oh my god.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Here’s where I do my best Ty Pennignton impression (that is very poor) and yell “Throw her under the bus!”

        1. I work on a Hellmouth*

          I think I’m being set up to be fired. A very hinky thing just happened with our big monthly company teleconference—she told me it was optional but told the rest of the staff that they had to sit in on it. I went anyway because it seemed odd to be the only one not required there. Turns out the team got a shout out, and she snapped a picture of everyone smiling about it and texted it to the VP. I think she wanted me to be the only one not present so she could say I wasn’t a team player/make me look like a jerk.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            Good call on going anyway.

            Can you somehow document that you didn’t know about the checks? I know that it’s hard to prove NOT knowing something, but is there anything? Maybe the entire email database itself? Anything required to perform the checks that you can prove never having been provided?

            1. I work on a Hellmouth*

              My leasing consultant could/probably would verify it if asked. But given what I’ve learned of past employee complaints about my boss to the VP, and also given what I know about my boss doing to former employees who she thinks wronged her… I’m just hoping I get movement on the new job front VERY QUICKLY.

              1. Master Bean Counter*

                I think you should write this into a sit-com script and find a producer to pitch it to. It would be an instant hit. Like a cross between Buffy and the Office.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      I AM a fan of the squirrels! There aren’t any squirrels in my country, I didn’t see any until I was like 20, and only saw them a couple of times. They are the most charming little things.

      I very much prefer them alive, though, and only inside walls if they are using them as headquarters to plan their revolution.

      …. Which, honestly, is as good an explanation as any for the Hellmouth Squirrels.

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        I have encountered many squirrels. They are cute, but evil creatures. Basically tree rats with fluffy tails. I will never forget the day I took my car in for repair and the mechanic was shocked by how many acorns were tucked in the engine area in every possible space. So was I.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          See! That story is adorable! I understand how they would get annoying after a while, but from here the cuteness levels are off the charts.

          1. I work on a Hellmouth*

            You would love my cousin. She has actually made friends with one of the squirrels in her backyard—it will come take peanuts from her.

        2. nonegiven*

          DH drove my car to work one day, thinking to drive it a couple times a week to save on gas. I had to drive over in his truck and pick him up after work because the squirrels chewed up my wiring harness. He had to spend a few hours rewiring my car before it would run.

    8. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Perhaps you could relocate the squirrels to your boss’s office.

      If everything wasn’t completely bananas, I’d expect the mentor to backfire on your boss, but given the hellmouth, you’re going to end up with Freddy Krueger as your mentor. (Then again, that might be an excellent way to survive the apartment complex of doom. At least if he decided to actually be on your side.)

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        As long as it isn’t Chucky. I can outwit Krueger, but Chucky would just straight up stab me.

  73. New Superpower*

    Did an internal transfer in the company. Two months later, my boss announced his resignation. I’m placed under another guy…. who yesterday told me that he’s leaving. Guess I found my superpower!

    Upside: the two guys who are leaving are both super disorganized. I just talked to my new new boss and I think it’ll be a good fit :)

    1. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Ha, this happened to me too once! Well, it wasn’t so immediately, but I did transfer somewhere, have a boss take early retirement, get a different one, who also left… in retrospect, it was A Warning Sign. We started going through a lot of bosses.

  74. No Name Today*

    Can I/Should I Forgive My Sexual Harasser?

    A man I work with sexually harassed me for years. I would tell the revolving door of supervisors, and it would stop for a while, but then start again. Because I have been harassed at every job I’ve ever had, I have learned to ignore most of it. A couple of years ago, he said something completely inappropriate to another employee and she was not having it. She went to our assistant director, director, and then straight to HR. An investigation was conducted (perpetrator was on paid admin leave for eleven weeks), and in the end, HR could not prove that this one incident had happened because there were no witnesses and just chalked it all up to a toxic environment that our new director would oversee changing up. He has continued to work here despite my protests and that of the other victim(s). (Other victims came forward during the investigation as well.) The complainant moved on.

    I have tried my best to be professional and courteous towards the harasser, even though I am met with silence and literal slammed doors. (He blames me entirely for the investigation even though I was not the original complainant. He believes I forced the other employee to complain.) I still have a job to do. The harasser’s son also works here and he and I are on friendly terms. He recently brought in some food his mother (harasser’s wife) made and offered it to me. It was something I had never had and really enjoyed so I told him so. His father found out. The next week, the son came to me and said his dad wanted to know if I would like the meal again. Somewhat surprised, I told him sure. I was gracious and told the father (harasser) thank you for the food. Since then, he has asked me directly for information on two occasions and even said good morning to me, after almost two years of silence.

    This man made my work environment a living hell for years. He was always in the areas where I would need to work, even if he wasn’t assigned to that area. He badmouthed me to new employees and besides all of the completely inappropriate remarks he made to me, he made an effort to intimidate me when he would come in direct contact with me.

    I am considering forgiving him. Not because of the food–I see the food as his olive branch. I do feel strongly that in order to move forward, he would have to make a sincere apology and acknowledge how hostile he made things at work. (We do have a supervisor I trust to mediate.) There are some days where I think I could forgive him, and other days where I would not care if he dropped off the face of the earth. I feel like I am holding so much hate in my heart towards him that only hurts me. He does not care how I feel about him, obviously. But I have made such a big deal about how I do not feel like this man should be working in this environment (we directly work with children and he has had complaints from parents before), and how he won’t change. To my knowledge (and in my position, I have access to personnel information), he has not had a complaint since the investigation, either from employees or parents. But are people like him really capable of change? In this #metoo era, is anyone forgivable? How do I move forward? There was a time when I considered writing to Alison asking her how to work with the sexual harasser and having to see him every day. I do believe my employer failed me and others by not taking action against him sooner. They claim they have zero tolerance for sexual harassment, but I have seen plenty of employees not receive so much as a slap on the wrist after someone files a complaint. (Do not get me started on management or HR here. I am actively looking for other employment. In the meantime, here I am.)

    Has anyone else forgiven their harasser? Or abuser? I could not imagine forgiving the man who sexually assaulted me years ago, but I also never saw him again.

    Thanks for your help with this sensitive subject. I love this community and hope someone can offer some good advice.

    1. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry. It does sound like you were failed here, and I don’t know that you’ll be able to have piece of mind about future protection until you move to a new workplace.

      You can forgive him if you want, but you do not have to. Ever. You can make the decision that’s best for you today, and change your mind later. You can be the blandest level of polite and keep your guard up. You can forgive him and still keep your distance. You can not forgive him and resolve to avoid him except for when you can’t. You can be friendly with the son and cool with the abuser. You can do whatever feels comfortable, and that can change over time. But I don’t know that you’ll ever be able to stop running this calculus as long as you are at this job. If it’s at all an option, I would consider looking elsewhere.

      Love to you, I hope you get to place where you are appreciated and safe.

      1. valentine*

        I would worry he’s reeling you in so he can harass you again, claiming you sent mixed messages by eating his wife’s food. (And thinking you won’t say anything in order to spare his son?)

    2. Anon for This*

      So what I’ve learned this year is that forgiveness is a deeply personal thing. I know a lot of people feel like forgiveness sets them free, but it doesn’t set everyone free. Another thing I’ve learned? You don’t have to forgive terrible people if you don’t want to. I don’t think spending time and energy actively hating them is worth it, but you don’t have to actively spend time and energy on someone you have decided not to forgive now or ever.

      A while back, some idiot was screwing around when he was driving, and T-boned my car. I had to undergo a lot of physical therapy, and my spine is permanently damaged. I have chronic pain and some things are genuinely hard for me to do. I don’t forgive him, and looking forward, I doubt I ever will. This guy chose not to pay attention while he was drinking a four ton machine, and he chose to drive recklessly. Do I spend time actively thinking about him and actively hating him? No absolutely not. He isn’t worth my time. Do I forgive him for choosing to drive like a jackass and permanently injuring me? Also absolutely not.

      It’s totally up to you, but I just want you to know that if you don’t want to forgive him at this time, you don’t have to.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, for me forgiveness isn’t really the thing I hear it talked about as. I don’t deliberately forgive or not forgive, and honestly, I couldn’t tell you for sure whom I’ve forgiven and whom I haven’t. I think you absolutely could decide it’s okay to have a less chilly relationship with Harasser without deciding that you’ve forgiven him, or even without forgiving him. So I’d do whichever I wanted to do and not worry about the one I wasn’t sure of.

    3. Tired*

      I was sexually assaulted by a classmate in college, and we were issued no-contact orders during the investigation and after it concluded (they found in my favor). However, he could not be removed from classes we were in together because it was a small college and that would be “unfair” to him. So, we were in class but technically couldn’t talk to each other. So I understand having to “work” with someone who’s deeply hurt you.

      I tell you that for context. To answer your question, I did end up forgiving him. This past summer. We live in different states and I haven’t seen him in years. But forgiving him allowed me to continue to heal. I honestly don’t know if I have advice on how to go about forgiving. I read a lot of articles on forgiveness and healing, and they helped a great deal, but I couldn’t tell you specifics.

      I’m not sure if any of that is helpful, but I want you to know you aren’t alone. Best of luck with the job search.

    4. Not Today Satan*

      What does forgiveness mean to you? Personally, I think victims receive way too much pressure to be magnanimous and forgive. I also think it’s impossible to forgive someone for suffering that is ongoing. As a hard cut example, what does it mean to “forgive” someone for an assault, when you go on to have PTSD for it for years? Healing is more important, in my opinion, than something as intangible as forgiveness. You might want to receive some CBT therapy, if you haven’t already. Best wishes.

      1. Dismuse*

        I find it helpful to mentally frame it as forgiving a debt. I just let go of the expectation that I am going to get whatever I think would make me ‘whole’ — whether that is an apology from someone or punishment for what they did. The person still did wrong, I can still be wary of them and exile them from my life, I can still be ANGRY and hope they fall in a hole, but I don’t give any more energy over to chasing this ‘debt’.

        I don’t see why we’re meant to forget that someone wronged us. It seems a much better idea to remember so that you can see it coming if it happens again. On the other hand I come from a family, and culture, where we hand down grudges as heirlooms. I am generally considered far too easy going by by family.

    5. Colette*

      A lot of people talk about forgiveness as something you do for or about the person who hurt you, but I see it as something you do for yourself. You accept that what happened happened and let go of the anger and hurt.

      It doesn’t mean you have to have anything to do with the person who hurt you, or let them into your life, or be nice to them – it just means that you’ve chosen not to give it more power over you than necessary.

      It sounds like this man has changed (you say he’s had no complaints since the investigation). I’d say let go of the hate and treat him neutrally.

    6. Mazzy*

      Are you looking for closure or an apology or to give foregiveness? If it was a one or two time event, I think you could let it go. But if he made your life hell for years – years – then why are you looking to foregive him? I think you can do it in your head or with a therapist or write it out and bury it, but not directly to him.

    7. Youth*

      You can forgive him and not engage with him. There are some people I’ve forgiven who have since changed their horrible, abusive behavior. We’ve actually become close, even closer than we were before.

      BUT that’s dependent entirely on the abuser’s willingness to change. If you forgive him and he shows more of the same behavior in the future, the fact that you forgave him doesn’t mean you have to interact with him in any measurable way. Also–since forgiveness is a process, sometimes the best way to forgive someone and never have those feelings come up again is to just never see them again. Do what you think will be best for you and will make you feel most at peace.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I was about to say the same thing. No way would I ever eat anything from someone who sexually harassed me or that I didn’t like. OP is very brave.

    9. wittyrepartee*

      There’s middle ground between forgiving someone and your previous state of affairs. Maybe you should consider this a return to curt civility? It sounds like the apple fell far from the tree. Good.

    10. Lilysparrow*

      You can let go of the anger and stop carrying it, while also knowing that he is not a safe or trustworthy person. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to be friends with someone or pretend that their actions were okay.

      The analogy upthread of a debt is a useful one, I think. You can write off the debt and stop chasing it, without extending him any new “credit.”

      What he did was wrong. Hating him or staying angry doesn’t punish him. It just raises your blood pressure.

      You can release yourself from that emotional bond. And if you need to give any kind of testimony about him in the future, you can still tell the truth – it doesn’t disappear.

      It just means you can stop waiting for it to get fixed, accept that it won’t get fixed, and move forward anyway.

  75. Amber Rose*

    Who won’t anyone show up for their interviews?! We schedule 3-5 per day, and some days nobody shows up. We’ve had barely anyone come in. They don’t call either. It’s very frustrating.

    In other news, I am an anxious wreck today barely holding it together. I’m waiting for some important news and it’s taking all my willpower not to just sit at my desk staring at my phone, trying to get it to ring through psychic force. Some days you just don’t want to be at work. -_-

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Aw, man, do I feel you on that. You can make it!

      Also, who the heck stands up an interview?!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Apparently everyone stands up an interview. One lady actually called to reschedule, and then didn’t show up for the new time. At this point the first person who shows up might actually get the job.

    2. Plain Jane*

      I think it’s the first cousin of the reason some people stand up a first date. The candidate decided they don’t want to be considered for the job (possibly because they got another offer or they did some research in between accepting the interview request and the time of the interview and realized it wasn’t a good fit for them) and they’d burn a bridge by standing you up then having an awkward conversation.

    3. Mazzy*

      I had this problem too the last time we hired. Part of the problem is that people who never worked for us, but used to work for a subcontractor, post their negative reviews under our glassdoor, and glassdoor won’t remove them. So we pay well but there are glassdoor reviews sitting there about no overtime or not even getting paid!

    4. Sleepy Librarian*

      What’s your application process like? Make that a little more work if you can and it might weed out some of the people who clearly aren’t serious. For example I supervise a student employee position, and I started requiring cover letters that answer specific questions (the kinds of things that should be in a cover letter anyway; they’re students so they’re learning). I waste a LOT less time on scheduling and holding interviews for candidates who aren’t serious now.

      1. Amber Rose*

        You must email a resume to my boss. She doesn’t want to put in any more effort than that, and she doesn’t read cover letters, so that’s probably not gonna change.

        1. Joy*

          If she doesn’t want more work (how lovely for her…), can you suggest that you do a 10 minute phone screen before setting up an in person interview? That should weed out some no-shows before wasting so much of your time!

  76. Should I stay or should I go? - Update*

    Ahhh – I just made it to the reference stage (they asked for five of them which seems a lot) for the job I’ve been interviewing for. The only downside is the hiring manager and HR were not super clear on next steps. When I spoke with HR she said it would be references or a second interview, but I feel like I also could have misheard (maybe she said and instead of or). But I’m hoping things continue to go well and that if it goes really well I could start in 6 weeks instead of 2 or 3. (The position is not entry-level; I would like to be able to wrap up a few projects at work; and I have some pre-planned vacations at the end of February/beginning of March that I would like to be able to do.) If not, I could do 3 or 4 weeks. Hopefully that’s not too big of an ask if it even happens.

  77. Perplexed*

    Looking for training opportunities

    Hi everyone,

    I’ve been reading this column for a while, and today I have a question myself: I work in a public organization of about 500 employees with a very good international reputation in our activity area. I’ve been here for more than eight years, three in my current role as the personal adviser of our director (who is the head of the organization, the CEO in US terms). I take care of some administrative files, quality check, provide strategic advice, coordinate a lot internally and with stakeholders, work on organisational development – all in all a really diverse management support position, a dream job.

    However, our director will retire in due time and, first, one can’t be in a support position forever, and, second, of course the new director will (likely) chose his own personal advisor. Due to the complicated organizational setup, my contract (which is well paid) does preclude me from becoming a manager in the organization. (Managers have contracts of a different category.)

    So, I feel I need to start looking and positioning myself. What leadership trainings or networks can you suggest? How does one make the move from this type of job at a prime institution to something equally thrilling? For what it’s worth, I’m a female in my mid-fourties, have three teenage/adult kids and only started my full-time professional career in my mid-thirties. I’m currently not in the US but could imagine moving (back) for the right job.

    Looking forward to your advice,
    Perplexed

    1. Venus*

      I think that this is a question best asked of a mentor-type person in this company. This is too specific for me, as an outsider, to have any confidence in answering, sorry!

      Is there anyone you can approach, either in this field or company? Or can you look to other people in similar situations (this seems less likely as your work seems very niche)?

      1. Perplexed*

        Difficult but I could give it a try and ask one of the other staff in a similar position how she is approaching this. And perhaps the director himself but I doubt that he‘ll know what‘s going on outside our bubble. First, he‘s very well connected in the bubble; second, at least since I‘ve known him, he‘s sceptical towards training and development (which doesn‘t mean he wouldn’t approve it for me).

        Generally, our working conditions are good and the jobs very secure. Therefore not too many people leave and look outside the system (but complain about missing growth opportunities and golden cage syndrom).

        I could imagine staying in the field or changing to a new area (as in from governmental to non-profit).

        Thanks for your thoughts!

        Perplexed

  78. Triplestep*

    Last week I asked what people felt about exit interviews, and I was still on the fence – until my boss gave me a hard time because I had to leave the office in a hurry after 87 year-old mother fell and was taken to the ER. (She is OK, thankfully). Mind you I worked several hours from my mother’s ER bay while she slept and we waited for test results. I kept projects moving, responded to e-mails and texts, and scheduled meetings for others in my absence so deadlines would be met … during my notice period.

    One of the many reasons I wanted to leave this job was because I suspected my boss would be a colossal glass bowl if I ever had an emergency involving my mother. This was the first time while working here something like this has happened. What great gut check to receive on the way out the door! And a nice recent example of her lack of soft skills to manage for use in my exit interview … I should really thank my boss!

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Glad to hear your mother is okay.
      And I’m sorry you had a jerk boss. That’s the one best thing about my job – good folks for family support.
      Congratulations on getting out!!! (My mom is 89, I get it… )

  79. Not All*

    disclaimer: shutdown is awful, stupid, evil, and never ever should have happened. I feel awful for all the contractors & everyone struggling

    But GAH!!!!
    I hate my job with a fiery passion. It was not at all what I was hired to do, my supervisor is from the “bring me a rock” school of management, the “mission” of our particular office is a joke, and for the first time in my career I’m not a big fan of several coworkers (normally I get along with pretty much everyone). I’m pretty devoted to my civil servant career & last long shutdown I was super anxious to get back to work because of the really important things being delayed/undone (been very lucky to be fine financially through all of them). This time…not so much.

    Now that it looks like we’re going back soon, I’ve started grinding my teeth in my sleep to the point I’m chipping pieces off (yes, digging out the mouth guard that I haven’t needed since the shutdown started) and catching myself clenching my jaw even when awake so hard I’m giving myself headaches.

    I’m trying to remind myself that this also means vacancies will start showing up on usajobs again but what techniques have other people used to cope with going back to a workplace they loathe after a long ‘escape’? I was hoping the break might lessen the pressure, but instead I find myself MORE irritated with the pettiness & idiocy…I think I had gotten kinda numb to it.

  80. anon for this*

    I’m an American married to a Brit currently living in the UK. He’s working (I’m a student, although I’m just working on my dissertation and not wedded to the area) but is also really fed up with his job, and we’re thinking of moving to the US. He’s a teacher–they don’t have a good US equivalent for his exact job, but high school or community college would probably be the best fit for him in the US. We’re not committed to moving, but does anyone have any suggestions for resources I could give him about teaching and education job hunting in the US?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Depending on what state you would like to move to, start with their DOE and see what they require in terms of education/teaching certificate/transfer of current certificate (if he has one). Some states are FAR more strict on their requirements, but others are desperate for teachers and would possibly have a program in place where he could teach and get licensed at the same time. For teaching in a community college, most will require a master’s degree in the subject and previous teaching experience.

      1. Anonysand*

        Seconding Minerva here. Teaching in higher education/colleges/universities have very different requirements than teaching in grade-level schools like a high school. I would look at what areas you want to be in and begin investigating what he is qualified to teach and if he will need any sort of certifications or licensing.

    2. fposte*

      In addition to what Minerva says, he might want to look at private schools. They don’t have to meet the same state certification standards. (Is he teaching in a sixth-form college? Private schools will like that.)

    3. ItsOnlyMe*

      Have a look at the form called British Expats, there is great information and threads on there.

  81. Conference Question*

    I have a colleague, “Jane,” who is currently suspended with pay while being the subject of an internal investigation. (The subject of the investigation is being kept confidential, so literally all I know is that one exists and that Jane is suspended with pay). HR has asked that we not contact Jane, at least through official university channels, while this goes on, and it might be going on for a while because the university bureaucracy grinds slow and exceeding fine.

    My question is about a conference I’m going to next month, which Jane also attends and which she leads several events for. Her name is still listed on the website as one of the leaders, so I think it’s highly likely she’ll be there. I wasn’t planning to seek her out, but do I need to actively avoid her? There’s one meeting I will probably see her at if she’s there since I have also taken a leadership role, and canceling my attendance at the conference or the meeting is not an option. I don’t want to do something that will affect Jane, the investigation, or me, but I’m not sure what the best option will be if she comes up and speaks to me.

      1. Tara S.*

        Def go ahead and ask, but my feeling is you can go and talk to her, as long as it’s not about work or the investigation. Like, if you want to chat about a research topic or a presentation you both just saw, go ahead and do that, but if the convo steers toward people from work or the investigation, deflect with a “oh, better not to talk about that until you’re back officially, I think.”

    2. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t even assume Jane is going. It’s possible the conference organizers don’t know or haven’t updated the website.

  82. Expectations?*

    Does anyone have any experience working in a culture where the overall management isn’t as structured as you’d like?

    I work in a fairly small company that’s just now implementing some hierarchy into the company. We’re around 50 people, so the structure is pretty badly needed. However, one of the reasons it’s needed is because the overarching management style is very hands off. For example, I speak to my boss about once a month. My review doesn’t include department or project goals. When we do have actual result-based goals, they’re managed by committee (i.e. you’re accountable to the “management team” and report out to a huge group, yearly, rather than reporting action & results to your manager.).

    This is starting to really impact my work. I find it hard to manage my team, because I don’t have a standard to go from. I end up being way stricter than other managers, causing issues. Personally, I’m very action and results-driven, and it’s frustrating to work with other departments (who directly impact my work) that aren’t being managed. It’s even starting to breed imposter syndrome – if the standards aren’t very high, why does it matter that I’m considered “high performing”?

    Thoughts?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Are other people noticing that this is hurting the company’s performance? I posted a similar question a couple weeks ago. My company knows that it’s a mess, for the most part. Something that I am going to do (partly due to suggestions from this site) is recommend an inventory of who does what task, and then simplify the organizational chart, so that there’s more accountability. I work in operations management, so this type of thing is pretty directly related to my role. But you manage people, so you deserve a functioning organizational structure.

      1. Expectations?*

        I think people notice the interpersonal/morale issues that stem from this kind of disorganization. And I think people recognize that we rarely if ever hit our annual financial/company goals. I’m not sure the two are getting put together at this point, though. As an organization, we do a lot of management of feelings and not a ton of management of results. The org chart actually came about because a few managers gave some pretty direct feedback on how it was affecting our work. I’m just not sure if my expectations are off here, though. Small companies, right?

  83. Jessen*

    So for someone who’s looking at going back and picking up programming languages…any advice on figuring out what skills are in demand and how to work towards being able to demonstrate that in a way that eventually gets you jobs? I feel like I’m back to being 18 and trying to pick a major, only instead of admissions counselors that tell you that your degree is Very Versatile I have an internet that seems to be mostly good at finding ads right now. (I was part of the “get a degree, any degree, and things will be great” cohort.)

    I withdrew from the program I was looking at after some reviews – it looks like it has a very low graduation rate, and what I was finding was saying there’s essentially no permanent staff, only adjuncts that are hired for a year or two. But when I’ve been trying to find info out I feel like I’m mostly finding places that are obviously selling something, which might be good but isn’t really an unbiased source.

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I’m going this right now, although I still haven’t picked a language yet. One thing that’s helped me narrow things down is to think about what I want to be doing (working on websites, doing database stuff, etc.) and trying to focus on that language. I’ve also found Reddit and Stackoverflow threads about various languages to be helpful in just getting a sense of the possible positives and negatives of different languages. Although I don’t always understand 100% of the tech speak, I still feel like it’s valuable.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it may depend on what you want to do. Java is big for robotics stuff or Android apps. Swift if you want to write Mac or iOS apps. I do a lot of automation stuff, so I use Python. If you want to do Chef, you’ll have to learn Ruby. Maybe you like doing web development stuff, in which case you probably want to learn JavaScript and jQuery.

      That said, once you pick up one language, it makes it easier to pick up other languages (just as it is with human spoken languages).

      Be careful, though: a good programmer isn’t someone who “knows” a lot of languages but someone who can understand what an end-goal is, problem-solve, and communicate well. Syntax makes your code function, but the code is worthless if it’s not doing what it should be doing or doing it badly.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m honestly pretty flexible on what I “want” to do – most of my wants are more work environment sort of deals than specifics about what I want to work on. My undergraduate and graduate work was in philosophy with a focus on formal logic, so this is kind of like oh here’s how to do the fun bits of putting things into very exact language to get the result you want, but no one expects me to take an adjunct’s salary for it. But I would say by and large I value stability and work environment over specifics of the job.

        That said, and on that last point, one of the things I do want to leverage is that I have found out through my 4 years of crappy underpaid customer service jobs that I’m actually really good at certain customer service skills! Specifically, I’m good at handling situations where it may not be possible to provide what the customer is asking for and figuring out what we can actually do, and communicating that in a way that still makes people feel like we’re working with them. I also can deal with demanding clients without getting stressed out. So that’s definitely something I’m trying to keep on the table.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Have you considered IT? You can start off in a helpdesk-type role (in which you definitely have to have good customer service skills), and gradually learn a bit about managing infrastructure and automating stuff. Great way to pick up Bash and Python scripting.

          1. Jessen*

            I’m actually in a front-line IT role right now, supporting some government stuff (and thank all heavens still getting paid!). Most of our stuff is pretty basic though, like we reset passwords and add people to groups, and generally the approval processes are so strict that you’re not encouraged to do a lot outside your job. I’ve only been here a couple of months though, so I’m still learning a lot about the job. They’re happy to let us work on whatever programming projects we want on the job though, so long as we’re not busy.

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              Oh, that’s excellent. Yeah, start looking at some stuff involving scripting that relates to your job right now. That way you can learn for the future and benefit your workplace right now. Maybe have a look at Munki (Python) for Macs or Gorilla (Go) for Windows. Some interesting open source projects out there you can use and/or contribute to.

              You can also do your own small home-grown projects. I created an Active Directory password reset webpage, and that was a fun activity. I learned a lot from it.

              1. Jessen*

                I’ve been doing little starter projects for my roleplaying groups. Just kind of fun, but it also gets me a group of willing testers (because “hey I wrote a web page that calculates your odds of succeeding at this roll, wanna try to break it?” gets a bunch of rpg nerds interested).

                Most of my actual job tends to be “click this button to add this person to this group and then send them this email.” We have very specific programs and there’s a lot of security rules, so I’d be nervous about scripting anything without explicit permission.

                1. Anonymous Educator*

                  Can you open source the web page you made for your roleplaying groups? The more you can get on GitHub, the more people can see what you do, and how you think/problem solve.

                2. Jessen*

                  Once I get a bit more done, I can, I think. The little bit I wrote was just a very simple bit of php code that runs a math problem, and a single-box web form. I don’t want to look like I’m overplaying my hand, you know?

                3. Anonymous Educator*

                  I know a lot pof people like to poop on PHP, but that was my first programming language, and I still love it. You’ve got to start somewhere!

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Developer here with some suggestions:

      To find out what skills are in demand, look at job ads for your area/the area you want to move to/companies you want to work for. The good ones will list the languages they work in. In my area, it looks like that’s .NET (this usually means VB.NET or C#) and Java for back end languages (it’s good to know both, but you’ll probably prefer one over the other), and various javascript frameworks for front end (Angular, ReactJS) and sometimes back end (node.js). There are also surveys on the most popular programming languages (search for TIOBE Index to get a good one).

      I agree with looking at graduation rates for programs. I’d recommend also looking at placement rates. In addition to avoiding places with very low graduation rates, I’d also avoid places with 100% graduation rates – it’s an indication the program is graduating people they probably shouldn’t.

      Adjuncts are not necessarily a red flag (I had a couple of great adjuncts as teachers for my degree), but in the case you’re describing (short tenure then moving on) I agree that it’s a bad sign. If the program uses adjuncts, I’d look for a) adjuncts in addition to full time teachers, and b) adjuncts who are actively working in the field.

      If you’re looking at bootcamps, check out sites like Course Report and CIRR (Council on Integrity Results in Reporting) and see what the reviews are. Also check out to see if the school is licensed or accredited through any state bodies.

      For demonstrating what you’ve learned, put your projects up on GitHub. See if there are any open source projects or hackathons you want to contribute to. These become public ways of demonstrating what you’ve learned. Even class projects can be shared this way. Be prepared to talk about what you learned in any of these cases, not just what worked, but also what didn’t work.

      1. Jessen*

        Thanks. By adjuncts I was meaning more it seems like they’re picking up fresh out of school adjuncts with the goal of getting instructors on courses as cheaply as possible. The whole thing was giving me a feeling of “we’re trying to save money by not actually investing in good instruction.”

        I’m ok with bootcamps as long as it works around a job, but I don’t have a lot of vacation right now. So it would have to be doable after work. Will definitely check out the sites you mentioned though!

      2. Jessen*

        I think where I want to live is “anywhere not in driving distance of my family.” I am unfortunately cursed with the sort of family who think “boundaries” means “go into overdrive and contact Jessen as much as possible, including showing up at home/work if need be, because she’s clearly gone crazy and needs us to fix it.”

      3. emmelemm*

        Are there actually people still programming in VB.NET? That’s the language the software I currently work on is done in and I feel like it must be going the way of the dinosaur. Mostly because I feel like everything from now on has to be web and mobile based and anything “back-end” or just “client-server” is worthless. Mostly I’m feeling worthless, is what I’m saying.

  84. Can't Sit Still*

    I interviewed two candidates this week. One was great and will be coming in for in-person interviews as soon as everyone can be available. We need someone to start now, because we’re so busy, but we’re so busy, we don’t have time to interview…

    The other interview was awful, the candidate was bitter and burned out, went on multiple rants about how much they hate doing some of the key responsibilities for this role, and capped it off with racism. Their resume was great, which is the only reason I kept going with the interview. I’m kind of glad I did, though, because the racism didn’t come out until the end.

    The next interview candidate’s resume has a lot of experience in an area where my team is really weak, so I’m hoping that interview goes well.

    1. irene adler*

      Wow. Never fails to amaze me how some folks are so adept at shooting themselves in the foot, as it were.

      I know I did an interview, having only had 4 hours’ sleep the night before. I said something along the lines of “I don’t like suits”. But then, the interview itself wasn’t well conducted. I realized during the interview, the person I would be reporting to was an ass. She had a mighty high opinion of herself. And the HR person asked the same question half a dozen times throughout the 2 hour interview. Got tedious.

      Lesson learned. Get more sleep. Cut short the interviews as soon as I realize the job isn’t something I want.

  85. Karen from Finance*

    I just got the most hilarious work email.

    I sent a one-line email to someone in my company with a question. The response was:

    Hi Karen, good morning.
    Answer to your question on your email below”
    And then as I scroll down to the conversation history below the email, he added “YES IT IS” with green highlight after my question.

    … Why?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      That’s hilarious!

      It’s so when he prints it out in color for the chron files, it’s clear what the question and answer was?

    2. Zona the Great*

      Wow! That’s truly bizarre. No plausible explanation comes to mind. That only works when several listed questions are given and the respondent would just say, “See Below” without the odd greeting lines.

  86. SemiRetired*

    Work compliments:
    What comments have you received in your career that have meant the most to you or stuck with you?
    Once, years ago, while a DMV tester was riding passenger in my vehicle, he told me that I had great lane placement. I was so happy to hear this! I mean, I think I’m a good driver and at the time was training others, but to hear it from another knowledgeable professional really made my day. It was a little thing, perhaps more meaningful because he was not my boss or employee or in any way invested in my performance. (Context: we were going a few blocks on a multi lane road, between buildings at the CDL testing facility, making a left turn.)

    Anyone else have favorite moments like that?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I heard from my supervisor in my first “real” office type job that she’d heard from a couple people that I was very pleasant and professional on the phone. That meant a lot because I used to be terrified of the phone and worked really hard to get over that.

    2. Mimmy*

      In my current job as a keyboarding instructor for blind and visually impaired adults – I had one older student tell me I changed his life. Maybe he was exaggerating, but it still meant a great deal that something so seemingly mundane as typing can be so important for many people who want to enter / return to the workforce.

    3. Plain Jane*

      I was an assistant at a book publisher and part of that was being first contact to new authors who would ask a lot of questions. I sat on the other side of a cubicle wall from one of our editorial assistants who eventually resigned. We had a goodbye happy hour for her and when she was introducing me to her husband, she said, “Jane is really good at having difficult conversations with people. I can hear her and she’s always patient with people and does a good job talking them down.” That made me feel really great.

    4. BadWolf*

      A couple of times, I’ve been complimented on my calm demeanor even in the face of something stressful. Which is the very thing I want to appear! Stress gives me migraines, so I’m trying to be chill inside and out. And I’m trying to emulate some of my coworkers who are great at calmly tackling a problem (not without urgency, just without panic drama).

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Not my favorite, but the funniest was the anonymous peer reviewer who said that I’m not antagonistic. It seems like such an odd comment – does he work with a lot of people who are? I’m pretty sure it was supposed to mean that I work well with others, but it’s a strange way to phrase it!
      My favorite was from someone who told me I was such a delight to work with. So now when I’m having a bad day I remind myself that I’m f’ing delightful, which does cheer me up a bit.

    6. Higher Ed Anonymous*

      I teach English, and one of the things I concentrate when I can theme an otherwise theme-less class (like most composition courses) is ecological issues. Students can write about issues in their home communities that don’t get much attention, reflect on their minority cultures’ connection to animals, and so on.

      I’ve had several students tell me, since I started doing this, that now they find wonder in the natural world, now they understand the importance of recycling or fighting global warming where they never did before, now they pay attention to wild animals and their behavior. I am very pleased with this.

    7. Kathenus*

      I still have a card I received from someone at a previous job. I was a manager of a department that worked with the staff of many other departments on a certain aspect of work. I love mentoring and helping people grow. When I left she gave me a card with a note saying how much I had helped impact her career with a bunch of specific examples. I run across the card at home from time to time and it never fails to make my day.

    8. Gumby*

      I heard from our CEO that one of our major customers said “Hiring Gumby is the best decision [company] has made in [time period].” I am such a small part of the contract in question (and by far the least technical – people with PhDs do work that is years beyond my understanding – I just make sure reports get in and planning happens) but it is nice to know that people notice even if it was hyperbole.

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      I’ve had a lot of really great compliments over the years, but my favorite came from my former manager in the claims trainee program I was apart of five years ago. We were having one of our weekly one-on-ones, and she told me, “I can absolutely see you running one of these divisions one day. You understand policy language better than adjusters I know who have been doing this for years – you just get it.” She then went on to say that I’m friendly, but I also don’t take any shit, which made me perfectly cut out to be an adjuster. I ended up leaving that company three years later to do something less stressful and to write full-time as a proposal manager, but that conversation is one I revisit in my mind from time to time to remind myself that I can do just about anything – I just get it. The same skills that made me an excellent adjuster (e.g. the ability to read and comprehend requirements, strong project and time management, the ability to work with a sense of urgency without sliding into panic mode, and the ability to think critically and outside of the box) are the skills that have made me, so far, a kick ass proposal manager.

    10. zaracat*

      There is one comment that I treasure and mentally take out of the box and look at when I’m not doing so well.

      I used to be in the military and during my officer training we were doing an exercise involving rappeling face first down a cliff. It’s pretty safe when you do it correctly, but still quite confronting. One of other trainees in my group – who had previously served as a sniper in an active conflict zone – told me that he thought I was brave, because he could tell that every time I went over the edge of the cliff I was scared but I kept going back up and trying again.

    11. Jasnah*

      At an overall awful job, I felt shut out and disconnected from my coworkers. But when I left, multiple people said my hairstyles were always really beautiful and elaborate. Self care was the one thing keeping me going so at least I got that out of that job.

  87. Rick*

    Half kvetching, half asking for advice here.

    A new person joined my small team this week, and by Thursday, he managed to upset everyone here. I’m not the manager, BTW, but I am the most senior person after the actual manager.

    He is constantly on his phone. It’s not a problem to look at your phone here, because there’s often downtime here when we’re running tests. He’s on the phone in meetings, when we’re helping him set up his work environment, and when people are talking to him. The second one is the most annoying — I’m trying to help him learn the ropes but he’s acting like I’m doing grunt work for him. Even worse, when we ask him to put the phone away, he’ll say “I’m actually listening” and put it face up on his lap or something. That’s partially my fault, for not being direct enough about it, but I haven’t wanted to come off as aggressive to a new joiner.

    Even worse is that he doesn’t respect meetings. My youngner colleague who’s our resident expert on a certain subject had a training session with the new guy, and the new guy commented on some news alert that came up on his phone, and ended up spontaneously leaving without saying a word to my colleague. This really upset the junior guy.

    The worst thing is that he just left at 4 yesterday. We had to reschedule a meeting at 2, and he said he couldn’t make it because he had to leave at 4:30 for an appointment. That was the only notice, and our boss didn’t know either. We would have been totally fine with this if we were told in advance. People here are fine with working from home or shifting hours, as long as you tell your team in advance. Nobody works weekends or puts in “heroic” 12 hour days here.

    He comes from a huge company and this is a smaller one, but we try to run a professional work space: there’s no dogs or beer in the office like a cliche “startup,” we don’t swear, the staff is pretty diverse in terms of gender, race, age and orientation. Nothing we’re doing seems atypical or unprofessional to me, and I’ve worked for employers with over 50K people and with less than 20.

    IMO this stuff he’s messing up is very basic (he has a senior title) and if he’s to stay here and get along with people he should do a complete reversal on everything I’ve seen from him. I’m not his boss, but he’s incredibly rude. How do I communicate that this is not acceptable going forward?

    1. Adam V*

      If you’d normally address it as the senior person, then I’d go ahead and pull him aside and tell him “listen, this is probably just a holdover from your last company, but I’ve heard a couple of things recently that I worry could hold you back here, so I just wanted to catch you up” and then go over them. You might give your manager a heads up anyway, since you wouldn’t want him to go to her and say “Rick confronted me with all these complaints” and have her wonder what’s going on. Alternately, you could just fill your boss in and ask her whether she would rather handle it herself since he has a senior title.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Talk to him about it in a serious conversation. If you have an office, take him in there, if not, find an empty room.

      “John, I’ve noticed that you use your phone constantly whilst people are talking to you/trying to explain things/etc and I need to ask you to not do that going forward.”

      “Also, at [company] whilst we are flexible when people have appointments, it’s important to let us know in advance and not on the day so that we can plan accordingly.”

      “I want to talk to you about the meeting the other day when you left when [Junior Employee] was presenting. It’s important to respect each other’s expertise and you leaving like that came across as rude and out of sync with our company culture.”

    3. Tara S.*

      Yikes. You’re senior, which helps, but this still sounds like a thing his manager should address first, so I would alert them.

      You could start commenting on weird stuff in the moment – if he just leaves a small training meeting without an explanation, you could follow-up and ask him if everything is all right, it seemed like he left tin a hurry and you were all confused?

      The leaving early for an appointment without prior notice doesn’t seem out of place for a senior person. Maybe it’s not how you do things at your office, but it wouldn’t be unheard of at other offices. Also, even if he does need to give more advance on those things, that message should come from his manager.

  88. Rebecca1*

    Princess Consuela Banana Hammock: earlier this week, you mentioned something about a Department of Labor interpretive letter on GI impairments and the ADA. I am interested in reading it, but my Google search didn’t turn it up. Do you have any suggestions on how to find it? Thank you!

    1. Mimmy*

      I’m not Princess Consuela but I wanted to mention that the agency that handles ADA issues related to employment is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which I believe is a division of the Department of Justice, not the Department of Labor. Try searching under those terms.

      I’ll put a link to the EEOC page in a reply.

      2. fposte*

        EEOC is part of the DOL, but the DOJ has some responsibility for investigation of Title VII violations.

        Rebecca, if PCBH doesn’t pop up, you could trawl the eeoc.gov site for the letter. I did a quick Google but unsurprisingly didn’t find anything; the informal guidance materials and memos I mostly find through sheer serendipity.

  89. Ann Furthermore*

    I am in the extremely fortunate position of having 2 very good job offers.

    Company A: Local start-up, but no worries about funding. It’s a great opportunity to be in on developing a new software using modern, cutting edge technology. The company founder started another software company many years ago that he sold for billions of dollars, so he knows how to be successful in the business. Nice benefits package, with a 4% 401k match and 20 days of PTO per year (for both vacation and sick time). There are not a lot of opportunities to work from home, as they like people to be in the office (which I get…they are creating their product and there is a lot of value in people working together in person), but it’s only a 15 minute commute and the hours are flexible. Everyone I met there was very nice, and I think I could work well with them. Huge learning opportunity, and if the software takes off, it’s a chance to use my years of experience to be part of creating a tool that people will actually like to use.

    Company B: Headquartered in another state, and would be virtual with up to 25% travel. It’s using/supporting/implementing a software program that I’ve used for many years and know very well. However, I think the software is on the verge of being surpassed by newer technology and they are struggling to keep up with the latest trends. Good benefits, but the cost is about $350/month more than Company A. Plus less vacation time, and no 401k match. They flew me out yesterday for an interview. Everyone I met was really nice, and all people I could work well with.

    So I’m torn. Company B is doing work I’ve been doing for a very long time, and something I know very well. I’ve been very clear about the amount of travel I can do, and everyone assured me that would not be a problem. But there is always the chance it could become much more than that – it’s just an occupational hazard of doing this kind of work. Company B is a huge opportunity to be in on the ground floor of something that could really take off.

    Thoughts?

    1. Adam V*

      Personally, company A sounds like the better position to me. Short commute, better benefits and friendly staff, plus higher upside. The lack of remote might annoy me, but probably not as much as 25% travel would.

    2. Overeducated*

      Congrats! If you’re really not worried about funding, Company A sounds better. You sound more excited about it as well. What is the attraction of B besides comfort and stability?

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Well, exactly. It’s a question of sticking with what I know versus leaping into the unknown. And I wouldn’t be having such a hard time making up my mind if all the people at Company B had not been so nice. I’m leaning towards Company A. It’s a much better career opportunity when I look at the big picture.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Company A. Until your last paragraph I couldn’t even figure out why your were torn. It seems like company offers familiar work stability but Company A’s work is more exciting and it doesn’t seem like it’s at big risk of going under.

    5. Forkeater*

      My spouse has taken a few jobs requiring travel and each one was more than advertised. Took me a few years to get over my resentment frankly. So I’d be really reluctant if more than 25% would be a problem for you.

    7. Ann Furthermore*

      Thanks everyone! I was also leaning towards Company A and that’s probably the offer I’ll end up accepting. I feel kind of bad though since Company B spent the money to fly me out there and put me up in a hotel overnight. I know it’s a cost of doing business, but still. Plus I know they really, really want me. If I hadn’t had this other really great opportunity fall into my lap, I would have accepted their offer in a heartbeat. Overall, this is a very nice problem to have. It hasn’t happened very often.

      The salary from Company A is a little less, but since the benefits at Company B are a lot more expensive, money-wise, it’s pretty much a wash.

  90. Krackln*

    A few months ago I posted here about bringing my young puppy to my dog-friendly office. I was concerned he would affect my productivity and annoy my coworkers, but the experience so far has been the complete opposite! I’m one of the more productive members of my team and everyone enjoys the puppy’s presence. He has annoying moments but is usually very well-behaved. I had a review with my manager yesterday and asked her very explicitly to tell me if the dog is an issue, ever. She said I’m doing fantastic and the dog is a delight and to continue bringing him with me. My puppy meanwhile adores people and other dogs and is able to stay calm in chaotic situations because he’s come to the office almost everyday. My past two dogs have had major issues with all of these things, so it’s a huge relief that this isn’t a problem for me anymore. This is by far the happiest I have been at a job.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I am so jealous. I would kill to be at a dog friendly office. I’m waiting until after I graduate to get a dog but I absolutely love them. I’m not sure if I’ll ever find this perk in my field but if I did I would probably never ever leave that job.
      I’ve only ever been at one office that was sort of dog friendly and this woman brought her puppy in with her often. I hope no one noticed that I refused to watch small children when they were brought in but I would fall all over myself to watch the darling puppy while her mama was in a meeting.

    3. Kittyfish 76*

      This sounds great! I think it’s very beneficial that the dog get so much socialization with people and other dogs.

  91. Penny Hartz*

    I’ve started looking for a new job. I’m not desperate or in a hurry, so I can afford to be fairly selective. My question–how long after a job is posted is it still worth apply for? I know that you should apply as soon as you see something, but I’ve just started looking and I see openings with posting dates going back to early December. The logical part of me says “It’s still up there, it’s still open,” but the part of me that has actually applied for jobs in the past says “Nu uh.”

    I don’t want to waste my time, or get the lovely “Thanks, but we received your application too late” email, but I also don’t want to lose out on something good because it’s been up there a while.

    Thoughts? Anecdotes? Data?

    1. Adam V*

      If it’s still up, go ahead and apply. You probably shouldn’t need to spend a great deal of time preparing your application, and I’d be rather waste a bit of time on a no-longer-open position than miss out on a not-yet-closed one.

      1. Penny Hartz*

        I think that’s one of my problems–I’m a writer, so I spend quite a bit of time on cover letters, tweaking my resume, ya know, crafting little masterpieces. Then, when I get the “thanks but no thanks” email or the usual silence, I’m deeply offended ! :) So I go down the “why bother” rabbit hole and miss out on good jobs.

        1. fposte*

          So maybe save crafting a masterpiece for a fresher posting and send a capable, good enough cover letter to this one?

    2. Tara S.*

      I would say if it’s months old, like 3 or more, it’s very likely stale and I wouldn’t bother unless it sounds amazing/perfect. But within 1 month is generally fine, 2 is iffy but maybe worth it.

  92. It turns out pumpkins are a fruit*

    Just need to vent…I doubt there’s anything I can actually do.
    I’m in HR in a smaller manufacturing company (30 employees) who is looking to fill a position that is on the manufacturing (vs. office/administration) side. In a meeting to determine exactly what we’re looking for, everyone else in the room kept referring to this person using all male pronouns. For reference, I’m a woman, they were men (four of them). After the second time this happened, I stopped them and commented that many women fill this particular position in the industry, and that we can’t know ahead of time what this person’s gender will be. From then on though, they either kept either doing the same thing (using male pronouns), OR, even better, saying things like “or maybe it will be a girl!” with a condescending chuckle. Maybe I’m just in a bad mood…

    1. Adam V*

      No, that chuckle would bother me too. Would it be possible to go to your boss and point out that you tried to bring it up and they either ignored it or were condescending about it? It would be nice if they’d pull in the bigger offenders and tell them privately to knock it off, or else call them out on it in the next meeting, but it sounds like it would have to come from your boss since you tried once and they didn’t change their behavior. I feel like if you tried again the next time someone said it, you’d have to go with something like “we don’t want to fall afoul of equal-opportunity hiring laws by excluding women” but I feel like that might be a bit of a gauntlet to throw down in a large meeting.

      1. It turns out pumpkins are a fruit*

        Sadly, Adam, the boss is in there with us. We are the management team. And the fun cherry on this sundae is that he was also “the chuckler.” :(

        1. Adam V*

          Oh, that’s wonderful. >:/

          Honestly, though, that makes me want to mention something to HR, either explicitly (“Here’s what John said when we were discussing the ABC position”) or offhandedly (“I’m a bit worried that John isn’t truly considering female candidates for this position”). As a manager, he should know better, and perhaps HR needs to step in and give him a quick refresher course.

            1. Adam V*

              Ouch. Legal remedies (or advice from a lawyer) may be the only thing that makes him see sense. If you submit a woman for the position, she is passed over but gets the impression that her gender played any role in the decision, she sues, and he has to hire a lawyer to defend (or settle), he may be forced to improve his behavior in the future.

              If the business has a lawyer on retainer, maybe she could help him see sense.

              Best of luck to you. :(

              1. It turns out pumpkins are a fruit*

                Oddly, he is not actually sexist IRL. In reality, he would have no problem hiring a woman for this position. That’s why it’s so confounding to me that he acts this way! It’s very frustrating. He falls in the camp of men who think they “can’t talk to anyone anymore without somebody getting offended.” I do my best to educate, but it’s wearing.

                1. valentine*

                  He’s sexist. They all are. I don’t know what you’re holding apart as “IRL”.

                  Couldn’t you have firmly said, “Maybe they will be a woman, or neither, so, let’s go with they/their”?

                2. Jasnah*

                  If he’s laughing at the idea that a qualified candidate could be female… That’s sexist. If he thinks he can’t talk to anyone anymore without someone getting offended… he doesn’t get what these movements are about and he’s probably sexist.

    2. Tara S.*

      No, I know exactly what you mean, it would really annoy me too. You did the right thing and they are being gross.

    3. It turns out pumpkins are a fruit*

      The evil side of me would like to only present them with only women candidates. Would that be too transparent, LOL?

    4. Brownie*

      My auto-response to “or maybe it will be a girl!” would be completely unprofessional, probably something about sexist condescending glass-bowls stuck in the Fred Flintstone era. Especially because it’s “girl” instead of “woman”. That kind of language, if it was unintentional? I’d probably go have a quiet private word with the person. But when it’s intentional like that, trying to push someone’s buttons? FLAMES ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE. It’s harassment, it’s deliberate, and it’s so far past acceptable professional behavior that it’d sour my mood too.

    5. M. Albertine*

      I know it’s past the opportunity, but I would have responded “A GIRL???” with as much incredulity as I could muster. Maybe a “I didn’t know we were looking to hire children for this role.” I think a lot of these situations, especially where you don’t have much power, is to return as much uncomfortableness to sender as possible. And if they accuse you of not having a sense of humor, you agree “Yes. I do not have a sense of humor about disrespect and sexism in the workplace. You hired me to do a job to protect us from things like that, so you’ll have to excuse me doing it.”

      1. It turns out pumpkins are a fruit*

        Oooh…I like this. I could look confused, like he was actually suggesting a child! It could be fun.

    6. Kathenus*

      Would the owner be receptive to you bringing up the topic at a separate time? Referencing the discussion involved and that while you realize that the comments people made may have been made in jest, that in the reality of today’s world actively soliciting diverse staff is really important. And that habits can be hard to break but it would be great if he could help lead the group to being more appropriate and professional in situations like this. This all needs wordsmithing, but basically trying to address this outside of the group and see if he might have his eyes opened and become part of the solution.

  93. June First*

    How do you respond when a coworker suddenly starts calling you their “work wife”? Background: We are in the same dept, and friendly but not friends. She doesn’t have many allies in the office because of her gossipy/catty shenanigans (at one point visited another worksite to start a rumor that two other coworkers were having an affair). She is friends with our CEO, and so doesn’t face many consequences. 

    Since I need to work with her, I remain distantly friendly. I have no idea where this whole work wife thing came from. Thus far, she has casually called me that twice instead of using my name. I don’t want to escalate this to our supervisors, so should I just ignore her or address it?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it’s okay, the next time she says it, to say “Eh, I’m not a huge fan of that term.” It doesn’t mean you have to point out that you’re not as close with her as she thinks you are, but at least you can discourage her using the phrase “work wife.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Though she could also misconstrue that to mean “Ah! So you are my work wife but just don’t like being called that.” Hm.

        1. Tara S.*

          I mean, I think as a first attempt, responding to “work wife” with a confused/annoyed face and a “don’t love that” would make most people knock it off. If it doesn’t work, a more straight forward “hey, would you mind not calling me that? Thanks.” should do it. If *that* doesn’t work, escalate up.

        2. Drax*

          To be fair, as long as she stops saying it’s okay if she thinks otherwise. I’m a big fan of using cop outs like “that term makes my skin crawl” when you need to preserve the relationship.

          the use of ‘work wife’ often makes me cringe. I had a ‘work husband’ but it was a mutual and funny thing that both of us used in a joking friendly manner. When someone just starts saying it without that relationship makes it weird. And I think you should not feel awkward about shutting down this weird behavior. There was a post about a new employee calling them their Work Mom and I think the same advice would apply to this!

          1. Paquita*

            My husband had a “church wife” on Wednesdays for a while. Both I and her husband were unable to attend on Wednesday night so they sat together. It was all in fun and everyone enjoyed it.

    2. CatCat*

      I would address it and shut it down because I hate that terminology.

      “Coworker, I don’t like being referred to as ‘work wife.’ Please don’t call me that again.'” If she persists, “I’ve asked you not to call me that and you need to cut it out.” If she still persists, I would escalate it to the supervisor and stop being friendly toward her. Cold professionalism is sufficient.

      1. June First*

        Thanks for the advice! Have to admit, of all the things I’ve been called throughout life, “work wife” is not that bad. Hopefully it won’t escalate to the level of that Work Mom situation–yikes!

  94. NicoleK*

    Coworker and I have the exact same job. We have one monthly task that is divided between us. My coworker has not been doing his share. He is aware that this is a task that our Manager wants us to complete and he understands how to complete the task. I’m guessing he just forgets about it. If he doesn’t do his share, it doesn’t affect me or my workload. Our Manager is pretty hands off, conflict avoidant, and focused on her own responsibilities. I’m pretty sure she has no idea that coworker’s share of the task doesn’t get completed. What is my responsibility here? To say something to coworker? To say something to my Manager? I have asked him about it in the past, but I wasn’t direct. I just asked him if he understood how to complete the tasks or had any questions about it (at the time of the conversation, he’d been on the job for 4 months).

    1. Adam V*

      Can you go to your manager and be explicit about the breakdown? Like saying “I’m working on my part, which is everyone A-O, and Bob is working on everyone from P-Z, but I’m not sure how far along he is on his task”, and that might cause your boss to break it apart in her mind so she doesn’t put the blame on you when your part actually got done.

    2. Tara S.*

      You don’t need to do anything if it’s not affecting you/the business. I get that it’s annoying and our impulse to make things fair, but it sounds better just to sit on this and not worry about other people’s jobs (unless that’s your actual job).

    3. Kathenus*

      Is his part just not getting done at all, or do you (or someone else) eventually do it for him? How much does it affect the business if it goes undone? If it’s low-stakes, then I might just do my part and not bring it up at all. If it’s impacting the business in a negative way, then I’d bring in the manager. If you are eventually doing it – all or in part – stop jumping in so that there’s a consequence to him for not doing it. If someone else is jumping in to do it, it would annoy the bejeezus out of me, but I’d probably try to get to a ‘not my circus, not my monkeys’ perspective.

  95. BetsyTacy*

    Any tips for how to handle an employee who doesn’t really have the ability or bandwidth to do anything more than very menial tasks? The kicker here is that the employee also doesn’t want to do anything outside of their job description.

    Previously, this employee primarily fielded questions from the public; however, when I came in as manager I realized that she was frequently giving egregiously incorrect answers. At this point, I am attempting to give projects that use her skills, but I’m wondering what else I can do.

    Some complicating factors:
    – Firing this employee would be a difficult, heartbreaking, and ultimately lengthy process.
    – This employee knows the union grievance and HR grievance system better than I ever will.
    – This employee has certain ADA and FMLA protections that she leans on to excuse frankly inexcusable behaviors.
    – This employee is a very sad situation of someone who should have been able to retire years ago, but for external factors is basically showing up enough to get a paycheck and not adding value.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you move her to a different position where she is still employed but doing less damage? And then document the hell out of everything in the meantime, so that if you fired her and she came back with a lawsuit, she would not have anything close to a winning case?

      1. Tara S.*

        Yeah, I would make a habit for a while of documenting exactly what she’s doing wrong. Especially around ADA and FMLA – sometimes managers/people feel like accommodations are excessive when they are not, so being really clear about *how* you believe her actions are not supported by those accommodations is important.

        Also, you may have to push on the “outside job duties” part. You can frame it as “we were seeing a lot of errors when you were answering public questions, so we are shifting your time to [new task].” If she says that it’s not part of her job, you can reply with “it definitely is a change, but I am assigning it as part of your job now.”

    2. fposte*

      “Difficult, heartbreaking, and ultimately lengthy” doesn’t mean “not worth it.” (Not saying it *is* worth it, but I wouldn’t shove termination to the side just because there are obstacles.) It’s also a difficult and lengthy process to deal with her morale impact on co-workers. Is there somebody you can go to about union guidance on this situation?

      (Between the username and the description–are we talking a library? Sigh.)

    3. M*

      Start documenting – and documenting corrective feedback – now. Even if you’re not sure you want to let her go, if the process for doing that is lengthy and requires significant proof of deficits, it’s better to start now and not need to follow through than to leave it.

      Similarly, document the alternatives you’re offering her and her response – so, if you say “I’d like to use the time we’ve freed up by taking you off the teapot help desk by having you take over filing the teapot samples”, and she says “nope, not going to do that”, you want that documented – and you want a documentation trail of why you chose that task for her. Also, get some clear guidance on how much authority you have to allocate new job duties, get it in writing, and use it. “Wakeen, we confirmed last week that I have the authority to assign you to teapot sample filing, and that that’s what I’m doing. Why haven’t this week’s teapot samples been filed?”

      It sounds like she’s pretty unreasonable, which is unfortunate – if she was more reasonable, you might have some luck just having a frank conversation. (“This task isn’t working for you, I don’t want to let you go, but I can’t pay you for work that’s not being done right. These are the tasks I’ve come up with that seem like they’d be a better fit, but let’s talk about how we make your role here one that works for everyone.”)

    4. WellRed*

      Do you work for some place where job duties are that rigidly defined? Because the terms of a job can change at any time; whether someone wants to continue the job is up to them.

    5. Hmmm*

      This is why you pay union dues and have an HR team. It is time to have a serious meeting with your union rep and HR person and discuss what your options are and how to protect yourself legally and what steps are required by company and union policies. Firing is rarely easy and quick. Often it is a wrenching decision that comes after multiple, documented, instances of poor performance and a written PIP. Do not be the manager though who lets liars and terrible employees stay just because it doesn’t make you feel good to fire them. If you have a team, I guarantee she brings morale down if not productivity.

      You mention she uses ADA and FMLA as excuses. When she does, have you tried asking her how the two of you can work together to ensure the mistakes don’t happen again? Example:

      Her: My MS flared up and then my home-bound parent went into cardiac arrest and I ended up spending the night in the hospital and so in my crippling pain and sleep-deprived state I didn’t place the critical order on Tuesday. Even though I actually waited last minute when I had more than a month to place it.

      You: I am so sorry to hear you went through that. What sort of accommodation or plan can we put in place that will set you up for success in case you have another perfect storm of disability and FMLA issues come up?

      Always follow up with an email to start collecting documentation.

      Good luck!

  96. JG Wave*

    I’ve seen Allison talk about assigning job applicants tasks, but I’ve never actually applied to such a job until today–the application is actually 100% task-oriented, which goes to the hiring manager blind, no cover letter. (I think there’s a resume component but it doesn’t go to the manager until after interviews are set.) And I am having SO. MUCH. FUN.

    I posted a couple of weeks ago about feeling really discouraged in my job search, and 1) this is a nice reminder that I am actually very good at the actual work of my field, and 2) giving me a lot of hope for this particular application. Describing my work experience can be tough, but hopefully in this case my work will speak for itself. I think I can say for sure now that I am a major fan of task-focused applications.

  97. curator*

    I am at the ALA conference. Thank you everyone for the advice of where to eat in Seattle. Got to remember to pace myself. It is easy to get overwhelmed and run down by Saturday. If you are a children’s and young adult lit person, the Newbery/Caldecott awards will be announced Monday morning. If you are in Seattle, the press conference is at the convention center open to anyone and it is over-the-top exciting. Monday, Jan. 28, 2019, at 8 a.m. PT from the Washington Convention Center, in Seattle, Washington.

    1. Windchime*

      I hope you are enjoying your stay in Seattle. I’m posting on Saturday and it looks like it’s a beautiful day, so hopefully you’ll get to do some fun Seattle-y things! Also, another suggestion for a place to eat is Wild Ginger. I don’t think I saw anyone mention that, but it’s just a few blocks from the convention center and is really nice.

  98. Urdnot Bakara*

    I have a question about asking for a raise as a contract employee.

    My husband (not a reader of this site, which is why I’m the one writing in) is a photographer who works primarily for this one specific event photography company. When they want him for a job, they contact him, he does the job, sends them an invoice, and they pay him $X per hour. The company decided on this amount–this is what they pay all contract employees starting out. He has been working for them for a while now and consistently does quality work, so he’d like to ask them to pay him more per hour. However, since he is not directly employed by them, but he’s also not deciding on his own rates like he would with typical freelance work, he’s not sure how to go about this. Any thoughts?

    1. Adam V*

      Maybe he could send them a pre-emptive note saying “I wanted to let you know that effective January 1, my rates have changed to $Y/hour, so if you end up needing to go with another vendor in the future, I understand.” However, that might be a tough sell if that’s his primary customer (which is probably what they’re banking on). He might need to diversify a bit more before he’d be in a position to make that call.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      “[Greeting, blah blah.] I’m writing to inform you that as of [date], my rates have adjusted to $X/hour. Thank you for hiring me in the past, as I appreciate all my clients. And I look forward to continuing to work with you in the future. Sincerely, Photographer Bakara.”

      Also dig his contract with the photography company and see if there isn’t a mechanism in there for him to escalate his rates.

    3. blaise zamboni*

      If he is concerned about losing their business, I actually think he should frame this more like a negotation with an employer, by stating his strengths and value to the company and proposing a rate that he would like (or, slightly higher than what he would like), then asking for their feedback/buy-in. I think he could safely do that in advance by reaching out to a primary contact, or he could wait until the next assignment and put the pressure on them a bit because at that point they actively want his skills.

      If he’s not concerned about losing them, then I agree that he should just let them know “my rate has changed to $X, how would you like to proceed?” the next time they get in touch.

  99. DrTheLiz*

    Well, I’ve got to interview with Scientific Publisher Berlin (thanks, Alison, for the cover letter tips!). Now I’m stressing out about whether a pale grey suit is “interview okay”…

    Anybody got fun “I can’t believe I wore that to an interview!” stories?

    1. Tara S.*

      More just “I can’t believe I wore such short skirts/dresses when I was younger!” Even with a blazer, it was not great.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I once wore a grey skirt to an interview that, when I sat down, ripped down the back.

      We all knew what had happened but I kept going anyway.

    3. Plain Jane*

      Not me, but at my last job coworker showed up to her interview in a bare shoulder top. Our industry was suits or business side of business casual which she knew because she was working for one of our competitors, plus she was in her 30s so inexperience wasn’t an excuse. She got hired and her work outfits got progressively worse- too short dresses and see through tops with bright colored bras.

    4. Amber Rose*

      I’ve never worn anything too strange to an interview I think, usually little jackets over blouses with black pants. But one time I wore my nicest jewellery set, all little emerald turtles, and my interviewer was wearing the exact same set.

      I don’t know if she noticed, but I felt weird about it.

    5. Wicked Witch of the West*

      Back in the 70s. Interviewing for job as office manager at a law firm. Neon yellow pants suit, with a white blouse with swirls of neon yellow, neon green, and neon orange. And high heeled sandals. I got the job.

        1. DrTheLiz*

          (Your having got the job makes me feel better, to be clear. Though neon yellow suits do make me happy)

    6. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      This isn’t so much what I wore to an interview, but its somewhat relevant. At a retail job that I had in college, a woman came into the store looking for an outfit to wear to an interview. My coworker (who was nice, but considered herself to be one of those high fashion types, and always dressed oddly), started helping this customer and picked out a bralette, a too-short skirt, and a blazer for her to try on. No shirt. Just the bralette, which exposed the customer’s entire midriff. I came over to suggest to my coworker that she pick out a blouse instead, and my coworker insisted that the blazer would cover the customer’s midriff and that the bralette would be “fashionable”. Needless to say, the customer left the store and didn’t buy anything.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      Heavy wool/polyester blend suit in a dark color (long pants + blazer that was meant to be worn closed, if that makes sense, so I wasn’t wearing a good blouse underneath). To a day long interview in Houston in late April when the typical daytime temps are ~80 deg F. I was boiling!

      Got the job tho. :-)

    8. Fiddlesticks*

      For my first job at my current company (I’m on number 3 now!), which is a Very Big Financial Firm, I showed up to my first in-person interview in a bright coral wrap-dress with bell sleeves and Very Big coral and teal earrings. It never even occurred to me there was anything awry with what I wore, because it was length appropriate, not too revealing, and looked nice on me. Years later, I was talking to a colleague who had been one of the group interviewers that first day, and she said she knew right off the bat I was going to “have a lot of personality” because I’d showed up to an interview at Very Big Financial Firm in that get up and that was the first time I thought, “Oh. Right.” Whoops. That said: they haven’t fired me yet! And I do have a lot of personality, so she wasn’t wrong either.

  100. Lynne879*

    For something more light-hearted, I was on LinkedIn yesterday & I discovered that Justin Trudeau & several other world leaders have their own LinkedIn pages. I found this wildly amusing, because I don’t really think they “need” it. Even more amusing was knowing that Canada’s Prime Minister gets harassed by LinkedIn for not having a profile pic every time he logs in xD

    1. Canadian Natasha*

      What, he doesn’t have one of his topless publicity photos in there? Colour me shocked. ;)

  101. DAMitsDevon*

    I feel like this isn’t really a huge issue, and most advice will probably be to just ignore it, but I wanted to get some feedback anyway. I’ve been noticing over the past year or so that I get a lot of requests to connect on LinkedIn from people who I seemingly have no connection with- we’ve never worked at the same places, been to the same schools, don’t live in the same city and often times in completely different parts of the country (or in another country), sometimes we aren’t even in the same or similar fields. They also don’t offer any sort of introduction or mention why they want to connect with me. However, every time, I notice we share around 30 or mutual connections, who all end up being my classmates from grad school. It also doesn’t seem like they have some kind of real world connection to any of these classmates either. At first, I kind of blindly accepted these requests, because hey, we did have 30 mutual connections, but now I find them annoying and have been ignoring them and indicating I don’t know the person.

    So, I guess what I’m wondering, is this even worth bringing up with my classmates? We have a Facebook group, so I could bring up that people may want to be more selective about who they connect with on LinkedIn there, both to make sure their connections reflect on them well and to cut down on having their fellow classmates get spammed with requests. Also, I’ve looked at a lot of the profiles of the people sending out these requests, and although there are some exceptions, a lot of these people have really unprofessional looking LinkedIns.

    I think what may be happening is that when we first graduated, a lot of people were still looking for full time jobs, and felt like turning down any request to connect could mean a lost opportunity. However, we graduated almost 2 years ago, and most of us have full time jobs or have continued with more schooling, and we have all had the chance to build our networks outside of school, so I feel like that fear is a bit misplaced now. I also realize that we are all adults, and ultimately, people don’t need permissions from others to accept LinkedIn connection requests. So, I feel like this all a very longwinded way to ask, do I bother saying anything or just keep hitting that ignore button?

    1. David S. Pumpkins (formerly katamia)*

      I don’t think you can really ask your classmates to change how they handle their LinkedIn connections.

  102. schnauzerfan*

    A couple of tips for job seekers…
    Make some room in your voicemail box for messages. When I call to offer you an interview and I can’t reach you I’m tempted to move along.

    When you list your references, don’t use your own email and/or phone number as a contact for said reference. It just looks odd.

    Proofread and make sure your contact information is correct and consider removing the kids screaming and dog barking from your outgoing message. Also, check your spam folder if you’ve applied for work recently.

    Thank you for your consideration

    1. Tara S.*

      Are you asking for references before an actual interview? I could understand entering my own phone number in a online initial application as a way of controlling access and not putting out my reference’s contact info hither and yon.

  103. Katy Kat*

    After almost 5 months of unemployment I am receiving an offer letter today for what I hope is going to be a great opportunity. I had a really great interview last week, I really liked the facility and the few people that I was able to meet. The job is a tiny step back in salary and position but they really emphasized the job as a foot in the door position and 3 of the last 4 people that held this position are still with the company and all were promoted less than 2 years in. They also have really great insurance and taking me off of my husbands insurance plan will save us quite a bit of money. The last 5 months of uncertainty have been really hard. This blog and group have been a great help, especially writing cover letters and prepping for job interviews. It was a hard road but I feel good about the future.

    2. irene adler*

      This made my day!

      Thanks for posting !

      Best of luck on the new job. Sounds like you have a winner there (job-wise).

  104. anon#4*

    I need a gut check. Was my manager passive aggressive?

    I arranged for a vendor to come install some equipment in a different part of the building than my office, said he’d show up “late morning.” At 9.50 as I’m packing my papers up from my office to go to the equipment room, I get an email from my manager saying the vendor has arrived early and is waiting for me in reception–vendor had called the other room and no one had picked up, so he left a message. My manager attached the recording of the vendor’s message to the email (apparently saving recordings of calls or voicemail from that room, I have no idea how you do this from a landline). There are four of us on the team who regularly use that room and the phone, and none of us were ever told we could be recorded, and also there are other teams who use that room too.I realize that maybe my manager just has access to voicemail and isn’t necessarily recording all calls, but it still felt like an invasion of privacy and also really passive aggressive to send me an emailed recording of a message I didn’t need to hear as I’d be able to meet the vendor in 1 minute. Am I off base here?

    1. yams*

      I think so, yes. Some phone systems record all voice messages as an audio clip and email it to whoever, I used to love this since I hated the voicemail prompts and I found it very convenient. Was it a little weird of your boss? Sure, but not like, a whole lot.
      Also, just as a general rule of thumb assume all electronic communications within your employer’s grasp are being monitored at all times and they may have ways of visualizing them you did not expect.

    2. CatCat*

      You’re off base. The vendor left you a voicemail and your boss forwarded you the voicemail. Not a big deal.

      If you have concerns that you are otherwise being recorded, you can address that separately and directly with your manager.

      1. anon#4*

        It’s mostly that she tends to jump in on things that she’s already delegated without allowing those people to react. And I think it rankles me that the attachment was really unnecessary. Like, what did she expect me to do with that information? Sit there wasting time listening to it instead of going to meet the vendor? Why did she think that was worth her time to do instead of just emailing me “hey, vendor is here”?

        1. Colette*

          It sounds like you’re thinking she went out of her way to get the recording, but I doubt that’s what happened. My phone is set to automatically email me any voicemails – so if I get one and it’s not for me, the easiest thing to do is to forward it to the person it is for.

          1. anon#4*

            That makes sense. It was just so weird and jarring since its never happened before and I’ve definitely missed calls from that phone, and 99% likelihood was that the guy was just here, no other important info or anything. I was also flustered that he was here before I was ready. Tbh I think I’m getting paranoid in this office. I still think it’s a really weird thing to do in our field though.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          She was forwarding a voice mail because the message was for you. Sounds pretty typical. Also, it is highly likely that you’re not being recorded without your knowledge. Voice mails are, by nature, recordings, and many places have phone systems where they can be forwarded to the necessary recipient.

    3. LQ*

      This sounds entirely like something I might do. We get voicemails as emails. I might be able to tell from the caller number where it is but not be able to listen to it (if I’m in meetings and checking my email from my phone I can’t listen to a vm) so I’d just forward the whole thing to someone and say, vendor is early. The voicemail may or may not have additional information someone needs. But mostly its easier to hit forward and type someone’s name than to go back, open up a new message, wait for the excruciatingly long load, search for the name, send.

      Really not a big deal. Unless your manager is knowing for constant subtle jabs, then this is just “hey, your person is here early”.

  105. FJ*

    My company has a problem that we don’t do anything about it until it blows up in our faces. I am so annoyed this week at one meeting I had that was emblematic of many issues at my company over the past year. I think I’m about to get a promotion to have some more responsibility but I’m worried I’m setting myself up to fail sometimes.

    I was trying to have a “last minute, get some **** done” type of meeting, and it was with a “cross-functional” group of people from commercial people to software development leads.
    The software developer leads I’m working with now are great, but they inherited a mess from their predecessors. And I discussed the exact same topics with their predecessors 6 months ago, so I was frustrated in the meeting.
    The commercial people have no idea of what’s realistic to develop, and the software people don’t realize how confusing some of their stuff is. So that was frustrating.
    One of my colleagues in my group was being idealistic and nitpicky and not realizing we have to get something done now even if it’s not perfect. So that was a pain.

    I knew a year ago we were going to have issues like this. I brought this to my manager, his colleagues, his boss, and they did almost nothing about it. At least now I’m told there is a re-org in place to do something about it, and I will more responsibility over the whole system in this re-org.

    TLDR: So I knew a year ago we’d have a mess, I told management it would blow up in our face, and they didn’t do anything about it. Now it has blown up in our face, but at least (I think) I’m about to be able do something about it… so, yay?

    Anyone else in a similar situation??

    1. NewNameTemporarily*

      yes, but not with the promotion coming. Just that I had the same impending sense of doom…. think of the music they play as the kids in the horror movie head to the basement to hide from the killer? (and I gave fair warnings)u

      For most of your letter, I thought you were my coworker – LOL. We are now 18 months behind (and will at the end be 24 months behind) with our unrealistic mess, promised in 1/2 the possible time, and loaded up with impossible scope creep. Substitute “partner-who-is-paying/stakeholder group” for “commercial side.”

  106. Sue Ellen Mischkey*

    Received a notice in the mail that oldjob from hell is being sued. Has anyone ever been a part of these job lawsuits where you have received money? Looks like they plan to settle.

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yes, I have. I assume you’re talking about a class action. If you are eligible to take part in the lawsuit, meaning that they did do to you whatever is being alleged in the suit, then it’s very simple to sign on with the class action. Then just make sure that if your contact information changes you keep the law firm updated, and when the whole thing settles you’ll get a check in the mail. It might be a lot, it might be a little. Expect less if you’re one of the ones to sign on later. You’re being used to bolster the case – the ones who actually hired the lawyers and spent tons of time documenting what was going on are the ones who will receive a real payday if it comes to that. But for basically zero effort you get some cash out of it. Again, assuming you were wronged in the way alleged. (I say that because I would never encourage someone to participate in a class action suit when they didn’t experience the issue at hand. I know people who have.)

  107. Rusty Shackelford*

    Dear coworkers, if you’re going to send an email to a LOT of people telling them they need to do a particular somewhat technical task, and if they have problems or questions they should contact Rusty, PLEASE cc: Rusty on that email. Thanks.

  108. ArtK*

    Some kind thoughts, please!

    There’s a company (and some specific jobs) that I’ve wanted to work for, for many years. I’ve applied and been rejected a lot. This week, an inside recruiter reached out to me, for one of those jobs. We’re scheduling a phone interview for next week. Even if it doesn’t work out for this job, there are lots that I could be very happy doing at this company or at the bigger corporation. Just having a recruiter who knows me will be a great step up.

    Yes, I know the pitfalls of dream jobs. This one definitely has some downsides that will have to be taken into consideration if we get to a decision point. I have to pursue this, if for no other reason than I’d hate myself for the rest of my life for not trying.

  109. Loux in Canada*

    So I’ve got a fun issue at work. I started using anti-glare screens on my monitor (the privacy screens by 3M that darken it) to see if that’d help my migraines, however we share desks and my desk partner on the other shift always takes them off. The sticker on it is not meant to constantly be removed and reapplied, so I’ve had to replace the stickers a few times already, but now I’m out. Anyone got any ideas for a reusable kind of option that I could use? Or another solution?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      There are heavy duty-ish velcro types of hangers (by Command, though maybe others) intended for mounting picture frames to walls. The idea is that one side of the velcro is attached to your frame and the other to the drywall and presto, you have a picture on your wall. Perhaps you could make something similar happen with your monitor? I found them in the nails/picture hanging section at my Target. That tiny little home improvement section they have.

      1. Fiddlesticks*

        This is a great option. I bought these velcro dots off of Amazon — really cheap and very strong! It’s holding a power strip to my kitchen wall right now.

    2. CheeryO*

      Have you tried leaving a note? I can see someone not understanding that it’s supposed to be a permanent thing, and I would think that most people would be understanding, especially since it’s for a medical issue!

    3. Zona the Great*

      Yes they sell over-the-monitor screens that you can just clip on or off. Easy to install or take down.

    5. Weegie*

      Magnets. Stick a couple of small ones onto the monitor and another couple onto the screen frame – et voila! There are some magnet strips with a sticky layer on one side, although the little circular magnets are usually stronger; superglue on one side should work.

  110. Job Hunt Juggling*

    I recently received a job offer at a company that seems great, but was lowballed on the salary. Meanwhile I had an interview at another amazing company dropped into my lap! And it would pay more. Any tips for juggling keeping the first offer waiting while interviewing with the second one? I really, really want to leave my current job as soon as possible. Thanks!

    1. Adam V*

      One possibility would be to go back to company A and ask for a sweetened offer – that might take them some additional time to get back to you, but once they did, it’s likely they’d be less willing to wait very long for an answer.

      The only other thing I could see is telling company B “is there any way to speed up the process? I’m already in the advanced stages of interviewing with another company, but I’d really prefer to work for you”, but if you’re only in the interview stage with company B and company A has already made an offer, I’m not sure you can juggle it *that* long (without something like a family emergency as an explanation).

      1. Job Hunt Juggling*

        Thanks! You’re probably right – I’ve updated Company B on how tight my timeline is now. If I can’t complete the interview process with them in time I’ll accept Company A’s offer, I think!

  111. Matilda Jefferies*

    I just want to report that I’ve been doing some networking, and not hating it!

    Like many introverts, I would pretty much rather perform a DIY root canal than initiate conversations with people I don’t know. But I’m looking at making a career change this year, and that means getting out there and talking to people, whether I like it or not. I’ve done informational interviews with two people – the first was someone I know fairly well, and the second was a stranger who was referred to me by the first. I was nervous for both, but I prepared, and treated them both as low-stakes conversations (which is exactly what they are, really), and they both went fine.

    And I’ve also been keeping my ear out for other opportunities, and asking people to keep me in mind if they hear of anything that they think might interest me. Even that has been good, because I’m doing it selectively – only with people that I’ve worked with before, who have a good idea of what I do. (I work in a pretty niche field, so I’ve discovered that if I ask *everybody* to keep me in mind, they start sending me job ads for things that are nothing at all related to my work, or that are entry-level positions that I held twenty years ago. So, quality over quantity on that one.)

    It was actually only yesterday that I realized I was “networking” at all – as I said, I’ve just been thinking of people that I need to talk to. So it’s been really helpful to remember that I’m not out there asking for jobs – all I’m doing is asking about *their* jobs, and a bit of chit chat about the weather or whatever. Hopefully this will all lead to a job eventually of course, but in the meantime I’m really pleased to discover that I can do this!

    1. Snark*

      I always try to remind myself that it’s just forming, and maintaining, professional relationships. It’s not necessarily informational interviews and intimate conversations, it’s not necessarily forced, it’s not necessarily this big forced thing.

    2. MeMeMe*

      I feel you, sis! I’m really anxious about talking to strangers, too, and feel really uncomfortable talking about myself or asking for help.

      What has really made a huge difference in my attitude toward networking is changing my mentality from “networking means promote myself in the hopes that someone will help me and my career,” to, “I get to help people by connecting them to the people I know.” That’s something it turns out I really enjoy doing.

      That I end up meeting people who actually help me is just an added bonus. :)

  112. yams*

    I’m finally getting an assistant! She’s gonna help me part-time and she’s not gonna be physically in my building, but honestly, after 6 months doing this job solo I would take a raccoon in an alley as an assistant!
    Any tips about how to split my workload with her? She’s gonna have 4 hours a day so I’m pushing all my low level administrative stuff to her (ordering cleaning supplies–weirdly time consuming–, verifying and updating ship dates, updating the info in the system, etc) while I focus on the more difficult projects. I’m going over to the office next week to discuss it with her and give her a bit of a heads up on the stuff I need her to do week by week.

  113. Me--Blargh!*

    Phone interview next week for a job in Bigger City. I’ve no idea what it pays but I hope it’s enough to live on over there. It’s not worth moving if the salary is less than or comparable to here–I wouldn’t make it, as the cost of living is 7% higher. It’s a consulting company, seems small and has listed a ton of benefits that sound cool, but I need to know what I’d earn or it’s not worth continuing. Even if the job isn’t ideal, if I could get out and live there, I’d have more options.

    I”m still looking regardless in the meantime. Would it be okay to ask if they have a range in mind, since it would require moving? They do a lot of remote working, but this job involves shipping packets and that can’t be done remotely. I’d be happy to move if I have to even though it would be a huge PITA (and I have no idea how I’d manage it), but I can’t do it if the salary isn’t livable over there.

    1. Adam V*

      Yes, you can say “I wanted to touch base with you about the salary range – I want to make sure we’re both in the same ballpark” at the end of the call – in our phone interviews, we leave time at the end for a few questions, and that would be an ideal time to bring it up.

  114. Crazy Plant Lady*

    How do you all think I can best explain a “career gap” after graduating from undergrad? I graduated with a BS in Information Science in April 2017, had a student job I kept through August 2017, and then took a full time job as a pastry assistant under a James Beard nominated pastry chef in October of 2017. I’m still in this job but have been looking for positions related to my degree off and on since taking the position.

    I probably didn’t job search as hard as a I could have due to not wanting to job-hop (I need a good reference from this job), wanting to get working professionally in a kitchen out of my system (I’m pretty much over it), and recently I realized that I had some anxiety re: looking for web development/design jobs (I had previously been applying to data analysis jobs, as I have experience via a student office position). I spoke with a recruiter who suggested I should look into my options in the field and I realized I have been scared to share my (small) portfolio online and with companies.

    I was burnt out after finishing school due to a disaster of a capstone course where I learned most of my web development skills. I didn’t pass the course the first time due to missteps on my part, but also due to unclear requirements for the final project (which had no grading rubric, just basically “impress me”) and harsh grading practices. I repeated the course and got an A, as there was finally a rubric, realistic instructor/student expectations, and I was only taking this and one other course that semester, as I had expected to graduate the semester I failed the course. It also took me about six years to finish undergrad due to transferring and some health and metal health related issues. My transcript probably looks like a mess but I managed to graduate with a 3.4 GPA.

    I know that all of this is completely irrelevant to an interviewer and brings up red flags I would have to work even harder to combat, but I know that I need to explain and frame this gap in an understandable and hopefully reasonable way. I worked throughout undergrad, a mix of student office positions and restaurant work and have been told that I am a reliable member to the teams I have been on, and have been given responsibilities that confirm these accolades. I feel that I taking the pastry job was a break I needed to take for myself, and I think having experience working full time in a high-responsibility position could be seen as an asset. I want to move on from my feelings about school and plan on working on that with a therapist, but as I get my materials ready to apply to web dev positions, I’m unsure how to manage this and if I should include some language about it in cover letters. Any insight is very much appreciated!

    1. Alice*

      This sounds great! I would much rather hire someone who had crashed and burned once and learned a lot from it. The fact that you will be able to share your portfolio is key.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I think you can address it early on in the cover letter. Focus on the responsibilities and accomplishments from the jobs/your degree. You can address the pastry assistant job as a great opportunity to work in a kitchen and learn from a top pastry chef, but you found that you’re drawn back to working in an office/want to return to focus on data analysis/whatever the main thing of the job is. You can really draw from the perfectionist/high responsibility aspect of the pastry work and connect it to the necessity for perfection and the high responsibility in web design/development. You graduated with a good GPA and it sounds like you have some solid references.

    3. fposte*

      Yes, I think you’re overanchoring on the significance of college generally and definitely overworrying here. You’ve been employed for two years. Nobody really cares whether you graduated in six years or four, and it’s uncommon (though not unheard of) for employers to want a transcript. If they ask for your GPA, it’s a perfectly respectable GPA.

      I think it’s fine to be brisk and matter-of-fact about enjoying pastry work but wanting to switch gears into a more office-based career now. You’ll be entry level, but so are a lot of people two years after graduation, and it doesn’t sound like you’re expecting anything different. There’s nothing here you need to apologize for, so don’t–that would raise more questions than merely working in an interesting non-office job for a couple of years.

  115. Manders*

    Oof, I recommended a friend for a position at my company and I don’t think it’s going to work out. Not because she’s not a good fit (she actually did get offered the job) but because she’s not happy with the offer and probably not willing to ask for what she actually wants. And I know my boss is happy to pay people what they’re worth, but he sometimes makes weird estimates about payscales when he starts a hiring process and revises them upwards as he learns what candidates are asking for. The job market is very weird in our area right now so the payscale sites aren’t very reliable estimates.

    I’m trying very hard not to insert myself into this hiring process, but urgh, it’s hard to keep my mouth shut when I see people playing weird salary games.

    1. Alice*

      I think there’s one person playing a weird salary game here, your boss. I mean, yes, ideally your friend would ask for what she wants rather than simply withdrawing, but a lowball offer could mean so many things:
      – the boss makes weird estimates about payscales and no one internal is able/willing to give him feedback
      – the company is trying to lowball candidates
      – the company is uninformed
      – the job is actually lower level than had been described so far
      – other people at this company are probably working at below-market salaries
      – every annual salary negotiation is going to be like pulling teeth
      And none of those possibilities are very good, are they?
      It would be “inserting yourself” to a degree, but you could tell your friend which of these are true and which are not, in this case.

      1. Manders*

        I genuinely don’t think my boss is playing games on purpose–when he was hiring me, he was very direct about what the work entails, and he actually offered quite a bit more than what I was getting at my previous job. I’ve just noticed this pattern where he comes up with a number for what he thinks people want, then revises it upwards as he learns what people actually want.

        He usually works with recruiters, who tend to help him figure out what a reasonable pay scale is way before the offer stage. This is only the second time he’s hired without a recruiter; the first time was me, and I wasn’t shy about asking to see the pay scale in the very early stages of interviewing. I wasn’t lowballed and salary negotiations at my 1-year mark went smoothly, I got a very nice raise. The job market truly is strange here–a large number of people churn through high-paying but short-term jobs with a few big companies, and cost of living can rise quite a bit year to year for renters, so even an estimate that was accurate last year can be wildly out of date this year. Before this job I had a lot of issues with getting bosses to believe that COL adjustments were real and necessary, it hasn’t been a problem here.

        I think I may tell my friend to be direct about the number she’s looking for, and otherwise stay out of it. I’d like her to get this job because she would be good at it but I’d rather she turn it down if it’s not right for her.

        1. Alice*

          You have important context to give to her, then. Right now all she’s got to go on is one data point — offer below market. If you contextualize it, maybe that one data point can be considered an outlier instead of a sign of a dysfunctional organization.

          1. Alice*

            I mean, you could also tell your boss that he may not need a recruiter, but he does need to do more preliminary research about current salaries….

  116. Career Changer (Lluviata)*

    Hello!

    Is there anyone else out there that wants to chat about changing careers? If so, please say yes and I’ll check back here to talk about it.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Yes! I’m contemplating a career change myself, so I don’t have any advice or experience at all, but I’m happy to share stories from my newbie perspective!

      1. Career Changer*

        Great! I’d love to hear your stories! I’m finding this is an isolating thing to try to do – most of my friends haven’t done this – and I feel lost, scared, and frustrated pretty frequently. So I’d love to hear from you.

        I’m mid-way through a career change myself (I hope I’m mid-way through…) and it’s been harder than I would expect figuring out what I want. I thought I could quit my job, and look online, and read books, and *vague ideas* and somehow it would work out that I’d know which direction to go. Instead, I quit my job, spent months doing some soul-searching but also paralyzed at the idea of making a change, and then took a position at a nonprofit after working at a chemical plant all my career. The nonprofit job didn’t work out, and now I’m planning on going back into an adjacent field to what I was doing before. I’m still not sure what job I’ll be (mostly) happy in.

        I had and have some personal issues to work through – like a lot of anxiety and big questions about how to use this life in a meaningful way. I know those are affecting how this career change is going. I think they might be driving the change, actually. It’s been difficult to know what to do sometimes – maybe I’m trying to do too much at once?

        Anyway, thanks for reading and listening. I’ll include a few links that I found helpful in a reply. I’d love to hear your thoughts on your career change!

        1. Career Changer*

          myskillsmyfuture.org <- helps navigate the multiple potential jobs within a broader field (for ex: what's the difference between an industrial machinery mechanic and a farm equipment mechanic), and you can enter a job you've had in the past to see how it's skills overlap

          bls.gov/ooh <- Has great descriptions of jobs, and predicts if more or less jobs will be available in this field in the future. This is US-specific.

    2. Janet Snakehole*

      Yep. On a PIP at my current job but I was thinking about it even before that. Hoping to go from non-profit fundraising to teaching. It’s incredibly stressful having to make a lot of huge decisions in a short amount of time, but also kind of exciting knowing that there could be something better on the horizon…

      1. Career Changer*

        Definitely! I like your outlook – there could be something better based on the decisions we’re making now.

    3. Phenomenoire*

      Yes! I was actually scanning the thread to see if anyone else is in the same boat. I’m graduating with a Masters in my new career in May after having been in my old career for almost 20 years, and the fields are RADICALLY different – imagine llama herding vs. teapot designing. And my new career comes with a massive pay cut. :(
      My main two concerns are a) finding something that I can shine (and have a sustainable income) and b) writing my resume in a way that highlights the transferable skills that I have.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I’m in the same boat now and, frankly, I am paying a company to help me do the work/through the process in a very small select group, with a lot of 1-1 coaching, over the next six months. I’ve known for some time I probably needed a career change,but I don’t know what to (although I have some ideas), and I’m at an inflection point where a bad decision now won’t give me a lot of time to recover. Making a small (but not inconsequential) investment seemed like a good idea to get me moving out of this rut because I am absolutely miserable at my current job, have zero interest in looking for a new, similar type job, and am burned out completely on my current career.

  117. Quagga*

    How early is too early to network if you don’t intend to change jobs or re-enter the workforce for a while? I’m currently on maternity leave (Canada, 1 year) and planning to return late fall 2019. There’s an interesting networking event happening in a month, but not sure if it would be worth going so early in my leave.

    1. irene adler*

      Never too early to network. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone complain that they have too large a network.

      You can increase the number of people you interact with, the earlier on you attend the networking events.
      Yes, at the Feb event, there may be something of an immediate nature that you can’t take advantage of. Later in the year, there’s the chance someone will remember you from the Feb event when they haven’t attended any other events.

      Earlier this week, I listened to a colleague who has started her own business. She’s talked about all the job prospects she is fielding. A lot of interest. But it will be months before something actually materializes.

    2. DAMitsDevon*

      It’s definitely never to early, and it’s early enough that you can probably be a bit more selective with your networking (so, when you see something that looks interesting, definitely go, but don’t have to feel bad for skipping out on a networking event that looks more boring or generic?). You also have the advantage of being able to build professional relationships with people and get to know them better before you’d maybe need their help with finding a job.

  118. Anonon doo doo doo doo doo*

    Happy Friday!
    I don’t have a question, I just want to vent. I am a high school teacher, and last year we hired a new “para”, who is a paraprofessional teaching aide. Paras can be assigned to a whole class, or an individual student. I am a content-area teacher, and classes of students are with me one period a day, every day. A para would travel with the class.

    In the beginning, “Percival”, who is 23, living alone, putting himself through school, came across as sensational! Over enthusiastic, willing to help, friendly, present in the classroom. I supported his becoming full time, gave my recommendations, as did the rest of my department. Well, things began going south. His over enthusiasm became overstepping, and he began yelling at kids, preventing other kids from visiting me room, oversharing his personal life, etc. I started getting worn out, but felt bad, because I could see so much potential and had supported him in the beginning of the year! I’m in my mid 40’s, with a lot of experience, and began giving him tips and suggestions for areas to work on.

    What I didn’t realize ( and this is a shortcoming of our school), was that he was assigned to one particular student, Wakeen, and he was not the class para. Other teachers didn’t know either. It was only when the special needs coordinator came to ask about how Percy worked with this one kid. Well, Percy had been involving himself in a bunch of other kids, and I rarely saw him interact with Wakeen at all. In fact, he almost seemed to avoid the kid, who really needed the help. When I asked about it, he said he knew he was assigned to Wakeen but was “too bored” to be a one-to-one para, so he installed himself as my de facto assistant, which I never asked for. At one point, I was grading Wakeen’s work, and saw he completely misunderstood the assignment. I asked Percy how such a thing could happen, and he essentially whined (not a cute look for a young man) about telling Wakeen what to do and Wakeen still messing it up. This kid has a serious processing problem and a seizure disorder that is very challenging to work with, but not impossible.

    At one point, he escorted Wakeen to a program with an outside organization with me. Wakeen is well-known and liked by these educators. At the end of the program, the two instructors come up to me distressed about how little they knew about Wakeen’s condition, and that Percy told them all about it, including that Wakeen essentially had the brain of a kindergartner, could drop of a seizure at any moment, etc. For clarity, I went over Wakeen’s issues with the head of this program, who was in contact with his mom, and she determined everything was fine in his participation. I told the instructors that was an exaggeration, I spoke to the director about Wakeen, everything is under control. Well, now their perception of this kid has changed. I pulled Percy aside and had a strong conversation with him where he was contrite, but thought they should know. I told him that was mine and the school’s job (true).

    I spoke to administration, who are working with him. Problem is, we have a major need for paras and are operating at a deficit, so he is still with the school, although reassigned to another kid. You guessed it-he tried to play off like he was the class para again. Admin is handling him, and he recently asked me for union contacts, so I think they are applying the pressure fairly hard.

    So, readers, I would love to hear your stories about a colleague who dazzled you and you supported in the beginning, but turned out to be a disaster in the end! Tell me all about it!

    1. Amber Rose*

      We hired an inventory/purchaser person. She impressed everyone in the interview with her experience in inventory management and seemed organized and outgoing and like she’d fit in well.

      Her outgoingness turned out to be a signal for a complete lack of human interaction skills, compulsive bragging, and compulsive lying. She hid work. She told me she was working on things when she wasn’t. She told our manager she’d ordered things when she hadn’t. She constantly talked about how much money she has and how her godfather is the owner of our local hockey team.

      But the candle on the shit cake was the time she introduced me to a supplier as the office bitch. I called myself that sometimes as a joke because I help out other departments a lot, but that’s not… you don’t say that to a supplier! She did not last long at least, she was gone before the end of her three months.

      1. Anonon doo doo doo doo doo*

        WOW! Candle indeed!

        I’m starting to wonder if over-outgoingness is a bad sign. like your person, our guy would claim to know how to do things he couldn’t! When he asked if I needed help one day, I asked if he knew how to change the toner in my printer, I never could get to it. Come to find a total disaster at my desk ( no toner leaked, thankfully) and youtube videos on how to change toner on my computer!

        1. Amber Rose*

          Yeah. We actually are interviewing right now, and one woman got a no because she kind of reminded us of the inventory person.

  119. Mr. Conflicted*

    I was effectively demoted, and I told my boss (point blank) that I viewed it as a demotion, and he seemed genuinely surprised and disputed it. My small team is 3 employees – me , my boss and an administrator — plus several contractors to whom we outsource design work. I was doing the more complex teapot design, and managing the company’s design process and being the primary educator and point of contact for process questions, and managing (at a high level) the software system for these processes. My team is understaffed and over-worked; we are in bare survival mode most of the time. The whole team is in a tough situation and under constant stress. I am burned out, and have discussed my burn-out with my boss. So, my boss took all my managerial responsibilities away and divided them between himself and the system administrator (who is levels below me). I now do only advanced teapot design, and no longer have any managerial responsibilities. My boss says it’s because I’m so good at advanced design, and it’s hard to outsource the complex design work because we can’t find affordable qualified contractors who can produce work at my level. And that’s true. From my boss’s perspective, this seems like the best way to handle my burn-out and address our staffing needs.

    I have a title that is senior managerial, but now I feel like an imposter, not to mention that I won’t be able to perform as a manager without any managerial duties. I believe it will impact future assessment of my performance and potentially impact my raise/bonus, since our performance review process involves elements of assessment by committee (not just my boss’s assessment). I have discussed all these issues with my boss, but he is not concerned about the title issue. My boss had good intentions and was trying to reduce my workload by removing my managerial responsibilities. (It truly wasn’t because I was incapable of doing the managerial work.) I appreciate the workload reduction, but the work didn’t evaporate–it went to my teammates. The consequences are bad for both of us, in my opinion. My boss is now operating a lower level than he should be, because he’s doing my job.

    My career path here has essentially dead-ended. I’m regressing. As with so many companies, advancement and promotion here require demonstrated managerial skills and mean getting more managerial responsibilities. It’s a small company, and there is no career/promotion path for designers (subject matter experts). But maybe I don’t care? I am not an ambitious person and not a “ladder climber”, yet I feel a little resentful about what has happened. My job is mostly about the paycheck, I suppose, and I am paid well. I am fine with doing teapot design, but I can’t help but feel devalued because the traditional management promotion track is now unavailable to me. I am very conflicted. I can’t even figure out how to figure out what is most important to me! Much ado about nothing?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I’d say give it a couple weeks and see how you feel. Maybe go to your manager and say, “I was a little surprised at how you handled my complaints, do you want to do a meeting in a month and see how things are shaking out?”

  120. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Self evaluations for a performance review: arg! I just completed mine and the categories are somewhat redundant, some don’t even pertain to me at all, and the worst part is that they’re all “essay” questions in that I can’t just pick a number between 1-5 on how well I think I’m doing — I HAVE to write a comment and give examples of things like: Promotes Diversity, Flexibility and Adaptability, Interpersonal Relationships, Communication, Customer Service, Leadership, and Innovation. I feel like this is a colossal waste of time for both me and my supervisor — who has to do the same thing on his end and then we compare our answers.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I just had to do mine. The ratings ranged from “satisfactory” to “excellent”, with the midpoint being “solid”. Uh, okay? And you *had* to leave a comment justifying each one. And we had about the same sections as you stated. Dude, I do environmental compliance. I have no customers. Does that mean I get an ‘excellent’? I mean, no one’s complained about their experience as a customer of mine….

      Plus all of this is online, and the program is the absolute least user friendly system I’ve ever had the displeasure of working with. Have fun clicking on 293048329840932 things to get to the one thing you need to get done!

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        The Promotes Diversity gets me…as someone who has no hiring authority what answer could I possibly come up with, and give an example, that wouldn’t sound snarky or worse? “Nobody’s accused me of discrimination” Is this really something that can be graded on a scale? Do they really think someone, for example a racist, is going to be honest????

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Right? They could at least give concrete examples of what they mean. I just have a title and a rating scale.

    2. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      I worked at a company that had this same type of self-assessment, with value categories that required specific examples of how you had demonstrated these values. In other words: here are the corporate values, now prove that you have demonstrated these values with examples of your behavior. Yes, it’s a huge time-waster, but you have to do it. It’s a popular thing in certain industries, and many employees hate it and struggle to come up with good examples in every category. Don’t sweat it too much. I always looked on it as a test of my ability to BS. Throw your best BS at it. The examples don’t have to be monumental or impressive. I sometimes used examples of what I would consider my normal behavior–here is how I handle this type of thing that demonstrates the value. But if you have specific, special situations that exemplified the value, even better. Good luck.

    1. wait wait don't freeze me*

      Keep the scope down. They’re really helpful but I’ve seen some go off the rails because it started getting too big to handle and just hung out there.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Yes this. Keep each card achievable in scope. It’s a bite size of deliverable work not the entire project. If it can broken into more parts, it probably should be.

        So instead of your card reading “Remodel the kitchen”. It should be a bunch of cards like, “Paint the cabinets”, “replace the sink”, “update the cabinet hardware”, “install a backsplash”, etc. And it might even make sense for some of those to be broken down into even smaller bits.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Don’t be afraid to add more cards as you identify more details.

      Use the cards as part of your communications – for instance, after developers code a feature, we may add steps for how the testers can tell if the feature is working as intended (particularly good when the new feature is superficially very similar to the old feature).

      Set up your columns/swim lanes to reflect your actual workflow. Don’t try to force yourself to work to the default column setup if it doesn’t already match your workflow.

    3. Librarian Ish*

      A follow up question – how do you deal with day-to-day tasks? For example, I come into work each day and process the orders that come in until the list is done. Do you keep recurring tasks on the board, or do you only use the board for projects?

  122. OfficeDrone*

    Evil HR Lady just had a post about how to spot fake Glassdoor reviews. I looked at the reviews for my company. This gem is in there. Seems totally legit, right? The con of working here is just….so good. So genuine!

    Please note this current employee is listed as an HR rep with a very specific title. In fact, there is only one person in this company with this title, and their job is to recruit people.

    Pros
    Llama Inc. has one of the best cultures of any company I have ever worked at. The company believes in have an engaging culture and it shows when interacting with any department. Llama Inc. does not want you chained to your desk, they want to you interact with your team and peers and actually have a voice.

    Cons
    When first coming into Llama Inc. the culture may be difficult to accept because it just feels to good to be true. But it is 100% genuine and makes it an awesome place to work. Come in and interview with an open mind and you will never want to leave.

    Advice to Management
    Keep up the amazing work that you do with making new employees feel at home on day 1.

    4. irene adler*

      I know it takes a lot of manure shoveling to nurture a flower garden.
      But this sounds like someone is trying to maintain an entire forest!

    5. LGC*

      …it’s like that HR person has never been on Amazon or Yelp before.

      Thanks for posting this – I needed a laugh today.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      “Come in and interview with an open mind and you will never want to leave.”

      Sounds…cult-like. Someone please check to see that her loved-ones aren’t being held hostage in exchange for her writing this review. Egad!

  123. Anise*

    What are the general expectations for hair style/upkeep in offices? I’m switching fields from lab/science work (very casual, I wear jeans and a ponytail most days) to office/administrative (not exactly sure whether it’s business casual or just plain business dress, but there are ties and blazers happening). Do I have to straighten or curl my hair? Are ponytails acceptable? Basically, how “polished” does hair need to be? I typically wash my hair at night and let it air dry overnight, which leaves it a bit wavy and with a mind of its own the next day

    1. Amber Rose*

      Varies by office, really. Nobody cares what I look like here, but other offices have cared. On a personal level I feel a little embarrassed if my hair is too cartoony, so I bought a heat brush and quickly run it through in the morning to keep the frizz down.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      My hair is very curly and absolutely has a mind of its own. I wear it in a mix of down or in a ponytail/bun, all with my natural curl. If you hair is affected by humidity, you may want to consider wearing it up or using styling product on those days to reduce frizz.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I know this isn’t helpful, but there are ponytails and then there are ponytails, so it depends what kind you have. If I put my hair in a high pony, it looks very high school cheerleader, but I can just as easily do a low pony which looks totally professional.

      Basically, I wouldn’t worry about this yet, and see how things go when you get there.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I use Goody banana clips for a more sophisticated take on ponytails. They work on straight, wavy, and curly hair.
      The trick is to fasten it really high up on the crown, so hair ‘waterfalls’ down the back. I like them because they work on layered hair to catch different lengths. Great when I was growing my hair out.

  124. WTF Straws*

    The cafeteria stopped carrying straws, because sea turtles. Company policy is that all beverages must be in a closed lid container that is accessed with a straw. WTF, WTF, WTF.

    2. Nacho*

      Buy a few metal straws. They’re only a few bucks, and your company’s right that the disposable ones are horrible for the environment.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed.

        My aunt bought everyone in the family a set of metal straws (including cleaning brushes and a carrying pouch) for Christmas, so we’d all be set with them. Personally, I’m not looking back! I like the metal ones so much better than plastic.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      If your company requires lids with straws, then they should be providing the biodegradable ones. Or they need to change the rule. On a personal note, if you like straws, I’d buy some of the metal ones. Just make sure you have a solid way of cleaning those out. They can get pretty gnarly and gross, as any straw will.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I use metal ones at home (and carry one with me, because I don’t like using plastic ones and the biodegradable ones are texturally gross to me), and all the packets I’ve gotten from Amazon have 6-8 straws and 1-2 straw cleaning brushes in the packet – I use one for a day or two, brush them out with the brush, then run them through the dishwasher, and the combo has been pretty reliable. (Plus the packets have half straight straws and half bent, so you have options!)

      1. periwinkle*

        I would have thought that was weird a few years ago. But around here, it’s common enough that at a coffee drive-through (Starbucks or kiosk), some baristas will offer you a straw. It’s so much easier to drink coffee through a straw when you’re driving! Now I’m probably weirding out people in other locations when I wander around with a straw in my hot latte.

        But anyway… I have metal straws but don’t like using them. The pack I bought from Amazon had both metal and silicone straws, and I prefer the silicone because they aren’t as affected by the beverage temperature as metal is. Also, biting metal is not pleasant.

    5. Koala dreams*

      Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense. Plastic straws are bad for the environment, but there are paper straws and metallic straws so the cafeteria could sell a better type of straw. And I get the lid part, but a lof of mugs with lids are not suitable for straws. If you have to make a hole for the straw, wouldn’t you risk spilling more?

  125. Everdene*

    Dog friendly workplaces:

    One of my team has asked to bring her dog into the office one or two days a week. I am considering this request. As a manager, what should I consider about this potential arrangement?

    If you aren’t a dog fan, what would make you comfortable with a dog in the office (if anything)?

    I’ve met the dog and he is a real cutie so I am trying to think in a balanced way and not just ‘Yeah for Dogs!’

    1. Rainy days*

      As not a dog fan, I would want to know that the dog has been trained not to jump on people. And that barking would be at a minimum.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I love dogs so much but I would recommend the employee has a sign letting people know there’s a dog in the office, or if they like to keep their door open a baby gate to make sure the dog isn’t wandering all over. Also having records that the dog is fully vaccinated/licensed as well, could even just be a letter from a vet, would be a good idea.

    3. KatieKat*

      Adding to the other comment, the dog needs to be with the employee at all times (ideally in an enclosed area by their desk if the dog is one that might want to wander) except when the employee is in the bathroom.

    4. Jessen*

      As a super allergic person, I’d want to know that there were adequate measures to ensure that there wasn’t going to be a lot of dander going into the building system! Sometimes people don’t get that simply keeping me away isn’t enough if it’s in the air system.

    5. Need a Beach*

      I would want to know that your cleaning staff is appropriately budgeted. Even if I’m not in direct contact with the dog, if hairball tumbleweeds start migrating because your janitorial contract only calls for weekly vacuuming, I’m going to become a red-eyed itchy mess.

    6. Welp*

      Owner of company I interned at 10+ years ago had a dog in the office. I am not a dog fan but what made that bearable was:
      – Dog did not jump on me.
      – Other people took care of the dog and cleaned up after the dog, with the exception of the bullet point below. It was not my responsibility.
      – Dog was small.

      What made it irritating:
      – Dog pissed in the office because nobody took it out. Thankfully I was never asked to walk it or take it out.
      – Dog begged for food whenever anyone was eating.
      – Dog was allowed to roam all over the office and no gates were ever up anywhere.

    7. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      In my opinion, this should be approached as a written company policy, not a privilege for one employee but no one else. Be prepared to have multiple people ask to do this. Some people have allergies, and a pet-friendly workplace may present significant issues in that respect. I am not a fan of pets in the workplace for a variety of reasons, even though I love animals.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Huge dog fan here (I currently have, like, half a cheek in my chair because one of my dogs is taking up the rest of the seat, and she keeps kicking me further to the edge because she’s chasing bunnies in her sleep, spoiled rotten). Things to consider:
      What’s the plan if the owner has to go to a meeting – take the dog? find a dog-sitter? leave the dog in her office?
      Cleanup – shed hair, dander, and just the fact that many dogs smell very strongly if they’re not bathed regularly?
      Related – allergies? You don’t want to okay this, then find out two weeks down the road that Jane in the next office over is spending her workdays stoned on allergy meds because that’s the only way she can keep breathing.
      Behavior – can you require some kind of verification that the dog has manners? A general good-behavior course can be had for as little as a hundred bucks or so at a lot of the big-box pet stores, though of course the quality of those courses can vary by trainer.
      Also on documentation, a good health certificate from a vet, as well as documentation of appropriate vaccinations.
      An agreement up front as to what happens if Fido is noisy, *ahem* messy, or otherwise misbehaving and needs to be removed.
      And what happens if other people want to bring in their pets? You can’t really do this on a Susie-only basis, you have to be prepared for it to be open to everyone.

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The dog has to have a place he can either go or be put into where he isn’t roaming around the office. For example, if your employee has an office with a door she can close, great. If not, she needs to bring in a crate. If the dog isn’t crate-trained, then she should be prepared to tether him. The dog has to be well trained and mostly quiet. The occasional yap or bark can’t be avoided, but if things get excessive, the dog has to go. She also has to take responsibility for walking the dog, and she may not leave the dog with other co-workers for long periods of time.

      I used to bring my dog into a dog-friendly office (all potential employees were informed about this up front) and these rules did not apply. My bud got to roam around freely and sleep on any available sofa. He sometimes sat at the front window and barked when he saw cats. I left him with a co-worker a couple of times while I ran out for lunch.

      But you’re not a dog-friendly office by design, and it sounds like you have some people in your office who might not be so hot on the idea. I love my buddy (and he is a very very good boy most of the time) and I loved having him wandering around my old office, but if I were asked to confine him or otherwise limit his in-office activities, I would be ok with that too. He is a dog, and it is a privilege to bring him to the office.

    10. Amy*

      As someone who is not a fan of dogs, and would not like to work in a workplace where there were dogs but who is not allergic, the minimum I would need to be remotely comfortable is: that the dog be restricted to a confined area where I do not need to go (and that there be closed doors, baby gates etc. between us), that I not be expected to ever interact with the dog, that there be increased cleaning of the relevant areas to prevent doggy smells, and that there be a plan in place to remove the dog from the workplace in the event of disruption.

    11. Everdene*

      Thanks everyone. We’re open plan so the person in question doesn’t have a private space. You’ve given me good questions to think about.

      1. TechWorker*

        My immediate reaction would be that unless you know it’s a whole office of dog lovers it’s pretty no go in open plan. I’m also not allergic and it would be a hard nope, consider quitting if my day started involving regular dog smell and noise…

      2. emmelemm*

        Yeah, I think open plan with a dog is tough. I currently work in a cube, but it’s partially against a wall so the “doorway” into my cube is enclosable with a baby gate.

    12. Mrs Mary Smiling*

      I like dogs, coworker has dogs in office. His office definitely smells like dog when you walk by. On rainy, humid, or stuffy days, the smell heads down the hallway also. We don’t have carpets or curtains, so I’m not sure where the smell is lingering, but after a few years it’s definitely sunk in. It’s not the end of the world, but sometimes I feel like I’m stuck back in the back seat of my family car growing up with the collie standing on top of me, drooling out the window.

      You may need to have a conversation about smells that a dog owner would not notice, or if you also live with dogs, have a non-dog-householder give a sniff test. It’s not bothering us, but if somebody came to visit, I would feel awkward.

    14. Asenath*

      Check with the other workers. Aside from asking about allergies, check into whether or not someone is afraid of dogs. I like dogs myself, but I know people who simply couldn’t work with one present, and it’s not always because of allergies.

      If the other workers are OK with it, then look into the dog’s behaviour – has it been trained to be polite and not jump up on people; is it perfectly clear that the owner will clear up any accidents and clear up outside immediately (this has to be the most contentious issue in my pet-permitted building; dog owners who don’t clean up after their dogs). And does it bark frequently?

  126. Rainy days*

    My boss is having us do a reading and staff discussion on dismantling white supremacy. Fair enough–I am white, and I think it’s helpful to have regular reminders to be conscious of race and privilege. I was surprised by the reading, which focused on what I would normally percieve as negative work behaviors, not necessarily tied to white supremacy. Things like “perfectionism” (i.e. using perfectionism as a weapon against colleages), “defensiveness”, and “quantity over quality”. I can definitely think of examples of how I’ve seen these used against employees of color. I’ve tried to speak up when I’ve seen perfectionism used as a weapon, but I did this because I felt the employee was being treated unfairly, not because I necessarily perceived it as racist. However, it very well may be my privilege that makes me see certain behaviors as neutrally bad rather than specifically white supremacist. I’m curious to know what people think.

    1. Librarian Ish*

      I wonder if one point the author it making is that these things might be generally considered to be neutrally bad, and they disproportionately affect employees of color. For example, a white employee and an employee of color might have the same response to a change in the work place, but the white employee’s response is judged to be normal, and the employee of color is perceived as being defensive.

    2. Lumen*

      This makes me think of a phrase I heard recently, which I love: white privilege doesn’t mean that you never experience hardship. White privilege means that your hardships will never be BECAUSE you’re white.

      I bring that up because behaviors or treatment that is objectively bad takes on a whole new layer of toxicity when the person doing it has a protective privilege (race, gender, class, sexual orientation) and the person receiving it doesn’t. If they stand up for themselves, they might get less support – or even be punished. If they are not exceedingly careful with how they respond, the reaction could be extreme.

      Someone treating you poorly at work is bad enough without having to wonder (or be 100% sure) that they’re doing it because you’re not white. And knowing, because this is the purpose of a white supremacist culture, that you will be punished if you push back. Ultimately, white supremacy is really not about the conscious intentions of white people. It’s about the dangerous impact of white privilege on people of color.

      1. Rainy days*

        If an employee does something that is not perfect, one could privately bring up the concern with one’s boss and ask that it be addressed, or one could trash that employee’s work (often behind his/her back) for failing to carry out the task perfectly, and present said trashing as “just trying to make our organization the best it can be” or “trying to raise standards”. I don’t think this occurred *because* one was white and the other person was not, but I suspect race played a role in one person feeling confident in taking such a stance and navigating office power structures smoothly while carrying out anti-social behaviors.

        1. Lumen*

          Well put. A lot of white supremacy (and misogyny), as cultural norms, is about answer “who can get away with it? and who gets punished?”

    4. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      Say what? I never would have imagined any employer requiring a discussion on “dismantling white supremacy”. Is this somehow connected to your employer’s business? I’ve seen work presentations and trainings on more general topics like workplace discrimination and harassment, but dismantling white supremacy seems peculiarly particular.

      1. Rainy days*

        We are a non-profit primarily serving people of color, so it definitely ties back to our mission and the dynamics between staff and people served (staff is not majority white, but we don’t necessarily reflect our client demographics either).

      2. Nacho*

        I could see it being done if Rainy works in a very diverse area, even if it’s not directly related to their business.

    5. SemiRetired*

      Do you mean white privilege, or maybe white racism? Unless you are in law enforcement or related fields, I don’t see how your organization could “dismantle white supremacy.” White supremacists are generally crazy mofo’s, and often armed. I would stay as far as possible away from any of them. If there is one working for your organization, fire him. (I assume such a person would regularly be doing discriminatory illegal or harassing things, so it wouldn’t be hard to find a reason.)
      In general I would find an employer’s trying to teach me values outside the mission of the organization to be intrusive. The Big Brother overreach is disturbing.

      1. Rainy days*

        Actually this is a common misunderstanding, one I was just discussing this with my husband. The understanding of “white supremacy” as meaning “belonging to a hate group that practices violence toward people of color” is becoming out of date. Now “white supremacy” is being used among social justice-oriented organizations to mean something like “a system of values and practices that actively disadvantage non-white people”. In the old understanding, white supremacy requires intentional acts of hate; in the new understanding, everyone who lives in a racist society should reflect on how their actions may unintentionally be upholding racist values. I think it would probably be clearer to the general public to keep using the term “white privilege” instead of “white supremacy” but terms like these do shift meaning over time.

        In any case, there’s a direct tie between my work and trying to be anti-racist, but I believe most / all fields will benefit from reflecting the role of unintentional bias coming from historical power imbalances, which is really the goal of our upcoming training.

        2. Ann O.*

          I wouldn’t describe this as a misunderstanding. The social justice usage is jargon. Much like how social justice circles have changed the meaning of racism from prejudice based on race to race-based prejudice backed by institutional power. As long as significant people haven’t bought into the shifted definition, it’s not an actual shift.

          IMHO, this distinction is significant because assuming a usage is widely accepted and understood when it is not leads to unnecessary misunderstandings (and resistance!).

          (I also read the linked article and would love to see the research behind what it identifies as cultural norms characteristic of white supremacy because it came across to me as both inappropriately US centric and as conflating critiques of patriarchy with critiques of white supremacy. Some of the points also seemed very vulnerable to abuse in a workplace setting.)

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’ve seen this thesis before and have found that it’s very thought-provoking. Here’s a link to one formulation for anyone who’s interested: http://www.cwsworkshop.org/PARC_site_B/dr-culture.html I guess I’d urge people to read that document to understand where the ideas are coming from before weighing in, with no information, with opinions about them.

  127. Awkward anon*

    I work with a lot of engineers. (Chem and mechanical.) Some of them are social, some are not. They seem to only interact with each other. I’ve tried talking to some of them, but its’ awkward and they look at me like I’m from another planet. I’m not an engineer- I’m in Knowledge Management. Some of them seem like they may not be too fond of those who aren’t in their profession, it seems to me, but I know that may not be the case. So my question is, what is the deal? Am I missing something? Does it just depend on the person?

    1. Career Changer (Lluviata)*

      As an engineer, I’d guess it’s because they’re extremely work-focused. We engineers can be really wrapped up in thinking about technical issues, and then have a harder time talking about things that aren’t directly involved in our work. You could try asking about their projects as a short-term tactic to build your relationship, and see if later they are willing to talk about something else.

      Some engineers are also jerks to people who aren’t, *eyeroll*, so I guess that’s another possibility. I find those people to be few and far between, though, so hopefully that isn’t the issue for you.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I’m an ME, and some engineers are easy to talk to and others are really awkward. However, if you ask my husband, we are all really awkward. (He’s been to many of my work functions.) We seem normal amongst ourselves, but outsiders don’t think so. We really like to talk about our work, which most people don’t like to talk about work anyway (excluding AAM’ers), and we always have An Opinion. You can’t have a regular conversation about, say, Tesla (the company) with engineers. They don’t hesitate to tell you why you’re wrong, and people hate that.

      Just ask your engieners a lot of work questions, and find the ones who seem most amiable, and you might be able to talk to them about normal things eventually.

    3. rocklobsterbot*

      Sounds like just general cliquisheness, they know each other and don’t know you. If so, I’d take it slow and try not to take it personally they might warm up.

    4. Clever Name Here*

      I am a mechanical engineer and I would say this isn’t about you or your profession. I don’t want to lean too hard into stereotypes, but engineers tend to be more introverted and not into small talk and social interactions. My office tends to be reasonably social (for engineers, the CSRs always comment on how silent our part of the building is) but I’ve attended conferences where I’ve had a very hard time getting any kind of conversation going with fellow attendees. I attended a users’ conference for some software and sat at a lunch table with ten other people. I asked the people next to me their names, what they did, how they used the software etc. They looked like deer in the headlights. They answered my direct questions and said nothing else. I kept working my way around the table and same thing, people would answer the direct question and look down at their plate. I gave up half way around the table and we all ate in silence for the next 30 minutes. The next day at the lunch break I sat with salespeople from the software vendor. There was no shortage of conversation. Sometimes stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason.
      I’d suggest doing your best to not let it bother you. Make some small talk when the opportunity arises, even if it’s awkward, but don’t try too hard. Keep it to a minimum with the most awkward ones, maybe put in a little more effort with the people who seem more social.

    5. LCL*

      Ask them about something in the news that would be related to their profession, no matter how much a stretch. Ask the MEs about the bridge that fell down. Ask the CEs what the difference is between a drug found in nature vs the active ingredient of said drug synthesized in a lab. 6 months from now you can write in here and ask how to get them to stop talking. ( I married an ME)

    6. Mike C.*

      There’s nothing inherent about being an engineer that also means you lack the ability to talk to other people. It’s just a stereotype.

  128. a good mouse*

    A job was posted last month, where I work with the hiring manager and I know she wants to hire me. She keeps saying how fast they need to move, and HR has said I’ll definitely get an interview at the very least, but it’s been 3 weeks since I last heard from HR.

    I work with the hiring manager every day and she keeps saying they have things that need to be done by the middle of February, and that I’ll hear from HR tomorrow or tomorrow or tomorrow about interviews.

    My mom thinks they’re trying to hold because they’re getting pressure to take a different candidate. I was hoping its just that hiring takes longer than usual, but I’ve literally not heard from HR for three weeks and I’m starting to lose hope.

    1. WellRed*

      Why does the hiring manager not have more power over the process? Or, is she politely putting you off?

  129. Lumen*

    I’m wanting to go back to school (as soon as I can) and get a master’s degree. My goal is to go into psychotherapy/counseling, preferably private practice after getting necessary experience and licenses. And I have some questions:

    1. Does anyone have thoughts on choosing between an MA in Mental Health Counseling (and likely a Licensed Mental Health Counselor after) or a Masters of Social Work (and Licensed Clinical Social Worker after)? Pros/cons of either, bearing in mind my eventual goal?

    2. Anyone else get their graduate degree while working full time? Is that even doable? Anyone with experience in degrees that are delivered fully online?

    Thanks!

    1. ThatGirl*

      So, my husband is an LPC/got his masters in MH counseling/is about to get his LCPC.

      There is not a huge difference between them. LCPCs/LCSWs/LMHC can all pretty much get the same jobs. The focus tends to be slightly different, and I think people hear “social worker” and think you end up working for child and family services, but any and all are qualified to be mental health counselors/therapists. Individual programs may vary a bit, and given your goal you may want to stick with the LMHC route, but getting an LCSW is not going to significantly limit your job opportunities.

      1. Lumen*

        Thank you! That’s sort of the feeling I’m getting – so many LCSWs do work for various agencies, but lots of individual therapists have that licensure and don’t do “social work”.

        Thank you so much for your take on it!

    2. wingmaster*

      Following this thread, because I also want to go back to school. I’d would want to complete my Master’s online, while being full time.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I can’t speak to number 1, but I did get my graduate degree while working full time. I worked for a university that one of my benefits was free graduate tuition. To use the benefit though, I had to have in person classes (online was only okay if it was not offered on campus in the same semester), so I was at my work all of the time. It was doable though, because my boss was super supportive of me getting a master’s. I finished in about a year and a half, which was considered fast. I’m currently looking to get my doctorate at my new university, and that’s an all online program with three residencies. So also look and see if your program has an residency requirements or possibly internship requirements.

      My husband is currently teaching full time and getting his master’s online and he hates it. Partly because he hates the program he picked and partly because he is a very visual, hands-on learner. If you are comfortable with independent learning and a lot of reading/discussion boards, you should be okay with online learning.

      1. Lumen*

        That IS fast. And I’m so glad you had a supportive environment to pursue your degree. That’s honestly another reason I’m looking to leave my current job – this career path has nothing to do with this company and couldn’t even be used by this company, so I wouldn’t expect any support or even much flexibility. Which, when I get to the point where I need to do my internships, clinical practicum, and so on, could be a serious problem.

        Thank you for the other point, too – I actually do quite well with independent learning, because the in-person pressure causes me some serious anxiety. Thanks!

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          He was a fantastic boss for many reasons, but the support during my degree was high on the list!

          It may be worth also looking into part time opportunities for when the time comes when you have internships/clinicals. Most of them will likely be during the traditional work day. You could potentially find part time work related to your degree-many non profits and service organizations employ people part time to get experience and it’s a good segway into the field! Of course financially that may be difficult, but something to think about as you consider your degree!

          1. Lumen*

            Thank you so much for replying again! I think you’re right, re: part time work and also being able to transition into organizations that are in line with the degree field.

            And I’ve pretty much accepted at this point that at various points this is going to cause financial hardship, but at least this time around the expense and debt will be for something that matters to me.

    4. Almost Academic*

      Please, do not do a graduate degree in clinically-oriented work entirely online.

      So much of being a good therapist has to do with your case conceptualization, and practice of actually sitting in the room and delivering evidence-based therapy / counseling to clients. It’s really hard to get the degree of practice and supervision that you need to be a competent provider when you are not showing up to classes in person, and your professors can’t see your personal dynamics and help guide you.

      Granted, I work mainly with PhD / PsyD level clinical psychologists, but of the ones I’ve spoken to that are hiring managers they will entirely exclude individuals who have online degrees from their hiring pool. You don’t want to spend all of that money on the degree and then wind up unemployed.

      1. Lumen*

        All the online degree programs I’m looking at have clinical components that are in-person, as well as internships and supervision. Just the primary coursework is online. I definitely would look askance at a program that didn’t actually have me sit in a room with clients at any point. But I also would not have a resume that has an “online degree” on it. It would have the title of the degree from X institution (and I’m not looking at for-profit schools, if that’s what you’re referencing). These are local schools who offer both on-campus and online methods of delivery for their degrees.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I can’t speak to #1, but on #2:
      I just (May 2018) completed two masters degrees simultaneously while also working 50 hours a week. One of them was a completely online program, the other one a mixture of online classes, in-person classes, and hybrid (mostly online with in-person meetings every 2-4 weeks on campus). Originally I had planned to do an MBA, which was the online program, with a certificate in public administration. However, my undergrad degree was not business-adjacent, so I had to do a year’s worth of prereqs first, and as it turns out, since the prereqs didn’t apply to the MBA, I could use them for the elective portion of an MPA to form an administrative concentration, which meant that after the four classes I was taking for the certificate, I only needed two more courses to have a full MPA instead of just the cert, so I figured why the hell not. It took me four years altogether, three doing classes full-time and the last year as a half-time student. (I also did my undergrad in a primarily online program and am currently working on a second bachelor’s degree in an online/self-paced program – this one is just because the piece of very specific paper is required to sit a certification exam, never mind that I’ve been working in the field for fifteen years and have several other degrees. :P My employer is paying for it, and paid for half of my masters degrees as well. )

      I personally enjoy online and self-paced learning and hate traditional lecture settings – being lectured at is not a way that I can learn, personally. Some people will tell you that online settings remove the in-person interaction and learning-from-others-and-from-discussion parts of graduate learning. I did not find that to be an issue in my personal experience because my online program was specifically constructed to incorporate those factors in online-appropriate ways — however, I could potentially see that being an issue in counseling or psychotherapy programs, so I would definitely recommend getting reviews and thoughts from alumnae of the programs you’re considering.

      Also, caveat: I am super introverted, have no real social life by choice, my husband’s therapist thinks I should probably be diagnosed as hypomanic, and I require very little sleep. So “Is it doable” and “is it doable *for Lumen*” are not necessarily the same question :)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          One of my goals for this year is to remember that, even if I don’t expect anything from anyone else that I wouldn’t also expect from myself, that still doesn’t mean that my expectations are REASONABLE. So I feel ya. Good luck, however you decide to tackle this!

    6. AnotherAlison*

      It’s been over 15 years ago, but I did get a graduate degree (MBA) while working full time as an engineer, with a 4-5 year old child at home. My husband also worked swing shift my last year, so he was not home in the evenings when I had on-campus classes.

      This was so easy. I started just one year after my undergrad graduation.

      Since then, I’ve done a couple classes in-person, one online, and just finished a certification prep online. I have a hard time making time for online classes, especially self-paced. My work is a lot more demanding than it was when I was in my early 20s, and even though I had kids then, older kids are worse. They have their own things to do that you must take them to. Although I juggled like a rock star when I was young, I don’t know if I could do it now. I think you have to consider how busy your full-time work is and the rest of your home life. (One big difference for you would be that this is a goal for you. For me, the post-MBA classes have not been something I was laser-focused on completing.)

    7. Phenomenoire*

      Oh wow! I’m actually about to graduate with an MSW, and my long-term goals are identical to yours.

      1) I chose MSW because social works focus on social justice and person-in-environment philosophy suited my personal style and values more than the apparent focus that counseling had on focusing exclusively on the individual as being party in need of remediation. In addition, in my area of the country, there are FAR more postings for LCSW’s than there are for LMHC’s. In other areas of the country, it is completely the opposite, however. I’d suggest checking out job postings in your area to see how it plays out.
      You might also want to compare licensure requirements – in my state, they are different, and I believe the LCSW requires more hours. *shrugs*
      Prior to starting my program, I had also spoken to MHC students who wished they had gone the MSW route – largely for the employment opportunities.

      2) I did my degree in a hybrid distance program – so, 80% of my classes were online, and the ones that were in person were evening or weekend classes, while working full time. To be honest, I only took 6 hours a semester, because that seemed like a doable course load – and I’m glad I did, as I would have been overwhelmed and not done my best work with more. The in-person classes were mainly the ones that focused on clinical skills (such as Groups), and my first year classes. The one drawback is that I do not feel as connected to other classmates/faculty as I would have been if I was 100% on campus. I’ve had two full years of in-person field placement, which provided me plenty of opportunity to exercise my educational skills in the real world.
      I’m partnered, but live alone, no kids, introverted, and have a scant social life by choice. I also have a VERY flexible boss, who has completely supported my career change (despite the fact that it means I will be leaving the company) and has willingly worked around my school requirements by allowing me to work short days, as long as I can get in the 40hrs.

  130. DropItLikeItsHotDesking*

    Late to the party but just a quick vent.

    My office just moved to a new location and I hate it. Longer commute, smaller space, hotdesking. We’re given more work from home time as compensation, which I also hate. Meanwhile on in-office days, my team is right next to our (lovely but extremely loud) sales team, and it’s impossible to do any focused work.

    I would be job hunting already but just got a big-step-up promotion and am really trying to hold on for at least six months, ideally a year. It just SUCKS.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Hotdesking needs to be banned immediately. I hate it worse than open plan offices. Sympathies.

      1. valentine*

        After six months of enduring this, will you be performing as well as you want to be, or will you be rundown and in a bind?

  131. Sally*

    I am currently on secondment in a different department in my company. I was in Teapot Delivery Logistics, and I’m on secondment in Teapot Production.

    My old department did do some teapot production projects, and team members would take on these projects as and when they had capacity.

    I’m due to go back to my Logistics department at the end of May, and I’m looking to pitch to my old manager that I will take on all the production projects myself, and be the dedicated production coordinator for the department. I’ve learned a huge amount of skills in Teapot Production proper, and I would really like to stay in this arena where I can. And of course, why go on secondment if you’re not going to actually bring those skills back?

    I was wondering if you could help me come up with phrases/a script to further my cause? I would be really disappointed to leave production altogether for logistics, but since logistics do some production projects, it just seems like it would be the perfect fit.

  132. Mimmy*

    This is probably a dumb question…

    So the government shutdown is beginning to impact air travel with LaGuardia temporarily delaying / grounding flights due to staffing shortages at air traffic control centers and one flight canceled somewhere else due to TSA screener shortages. I’m flying out for the conference (mentioned upthread) on Sunday afternoon and returning Tuesday evening. I took off of work for all of next week, partly because of the conference and partly to preserve limited allowed hours.

    In the (probably unlikely) event that I am unable to fly Sunday, should I report to work Monday, or should I keep my plans to take off for the week? Our work is based on a meticulously-planned weekly instructional schedule, and they planned for my not being there all week with only 2 slots (out of a possible 13) for my class that will be covered by another instructor.

    Things can be changed if need be, but I don’t like the idea of them messing with it to avoid any ripple effects.

    1. Mimmy*

      Ahh never mind…looks like the shutdown will be ending for now. I don’t think it’s a done deal yet, but it’s very promising.

  133. AwkwardTurtle*

    I bit off more than I could chew! I volunteered for a large research task at work and didn’t realize how much time it would take for reading, analysis, writing, and editing. Overpromised on the timeline and my level of expertise on the topic and now my supervisor needs to walk back on that promise on my behalf. I’m trying not to have anxiety over it but can’t help but feel this was a large oversight by me.

    1. irene adler*

      It’s good you let supervisor know the situation now, early on, and not when it reached deadline time.

  134. Laura*

    This week I found out that my entire office is closing down, with 400 people being made redundant, in September.

    I’ve worked there for 8 years, longer than any other job I’ve had.

    It’s probably for the best. I was too comfortable, and need a challenge. But the thought of applying for jobs again is daunting, and the thought of waiting around for the next 8 months in order to get my redundancy payment is pretty bleak.

    How do I best use this time?

    1. Colette*

      Is the redundancy payment a life-changing amount of money? Because if it’s a “gee, would be nice” amount, can you take it out of your calculations? Start job hunting and, if you find something great, leave the redundancy money on the table and get out – and if you don’t find something great, stick around until you do.

      1. Colette*

        But to answer the question you actually asked, start networking – meet with former colleagues to see what’s out there, update your resume, start looking at job postings even if you’re not ready to supply. September isn’t that far away, and it can take a while to get a job.

        1. irene adler*

          Yes!
          Find a professional organization in your field and network. Ask for tips on job hunting, leads on open jobs, etc.

      2. Laura*

        The redundancy money is significant but not life changing – about a third of my pre-tax annual salary. I can afford to leave it on the table with I think only minimum regret (especially if any new job included a decent pay rise, which is probable).

        In the few days since the announcement, I’ve updated my CV and LinkedIn and have received messages from several recruiters about jobs in my field.

        I’m torn between wanting to just go for it and get a job now, and being indecisive out of fear of making the wrong decision.

        1. Colette*

          Start looking. You don’t have to accept a job, but it’s a good idea to start seeing what’s out there.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Oh man, that was me a couple years ago. Solidarity fistbump!

      You have warning about it, so I would jump on starting to apply for jobs right away. Depending on your industry, this may also have other employers sniffing around, too — I know that when my company closed down our office, a bunch of local companies in the financial sector started aggressively recruiting among us. You’ve got an absolutely clear-cut answer to ‘why are you searching for a new job,’ and if you start with this much lead time, you’ll have much less pressure than if you wait.

      As far as severance goes, I took the attitude that it would be a nice bonus if I got it, and if I didn’t end up sticking around till the bitter end, I would just roll off to my new job without feeling like I’d left money on the table. As it worked out, I did end up staying till the end, and had about six weeks between the end of my old employment and the beginning of my new — but staying till the end also meant that I got to take a business trip to a part of the world I’d never visited, which was a fun adventure, and of course four months of severance payments which were a nice boost. But “if it happens it happens, if it doesn’t then it doesn’t” took the severance question off the table for me as far as stressors.

      Also, check out what your company is offering in terms of transition assistance. OldJob held a job fair on site for us, with scheduled time away from our desks to take part, and also had a series of seminars on things like COBRA, applying for UE, resume and cover letter standards, and so forth.

    3. Anono-me*

      No matter what you decide to do, please take home anything irreplaceable right away and make sure you have personal contact information for as many coworkers as possible, especially supervisors.

      I’ve known places that locked the doors early and told employees that they would probably eventually receive their personal belongings once everything was settled. And we have all seen people post about trying to document their work history at long defunct companies.

      Best wishes for your future.

  135. Nacho*

    I’ve got a question about overtime, if anybody knows the answer.

    Last week, my work closed the office early and bused everybody to a conference center a few miles away for a work function. There was a small paid lunch followed by 5 hours of motivational speakers and our CEO giving a talk about our mission statement and future plans. People who worked that day didn’t have to go, but would only get paid for the time if they did. People who didn’t work that day were offered the opportunity to go and be paid extra for the time they spent there.

    I’ve just learned that the company is classifying the time as “paid time off” rather than time worked, which means that those of us who worked a full 40 hour work week and also attended the event won’t be paid overtime rates for those hours. Can they do that? I assumed that attending work events was considered work, and that we would have to be paid according to the normal laws for that time (which means time and a half after 40 hours in a week). Does the fact that it wasn’t work, just listening to some speeches change that?

    Thanks.

    1. fposte*

      It might make a difference. Here’s an overview I found:

      “Many non-exempt employees attend lectures, seminars, and training programs outside the office. Attendance at lectures, meetings, training programs, and similar activities is not considered compensable time only if all of the following criteria are met:

      • Attendance is outside the employee’s regular working hours,
      • Attendance is voluntary,
      • The course, lecture, or meeting is not directly related to the employee’s job, AND
      • The employee does not perform any productive work during such attendance.” [source link in followup.]

  136. Recent-ish Grad*

    Hey y’all! Happy Friday.

    I was hoping to get some advice about job hopping.

    I graduated with my BA in 2017 and because of health issues I worked retail for just under a year before starting my “career”. My first career job was a nightmare: low pay, lack of clarity on my role’s responsibilities, and a boss that mocked my facial expressions while I worked, slut shamed me, and criticized my food. I started another position with another organization after about 3 months. I like my job and I had planned to stay with the organization for at least a year and a half to build up my work history (I’ve been here 6 months). It became clear to me that this particular role would not be a great long term fit pretty immediately. It’s perfectly fine, but I work directly with clients in a way that is emotionally draining day in and day out ( I work with chronically homeless folks in tough situations).

    An organization I interviewed with (and eventually removed myself from consideration for any roles at after accepting this position) is hiring for a role that does exactly what I want to be doing and positions me to build the kind of career I am seeking. I want to apply, but I’m concerned about burning bridges and leaving my work history looking like I’m not committed.

    Is the fact that I’m early on in my career make short stints more acceptable? If I take another job, will staying there for 2+ years help me wipe the slate? Or do I need to hunker down here for the sake of my work history?

    Thanks so much!

  137. apopculturalist*

    I have a BIG work week coming up — big trip, late nights, LOTS of work to return to on quick deadline. How do you relax before times like this?

  138. user523*

    I’ve had a new job for about 2 weeks. I manage several people for the first time.

    I have the impression I’m not coming across as friendly, engaged and competent as I did in my previous jobs.

    I think there can be two reasons for that:

    1) My boss is super extroverted. I’m not exactly introverted but I’m much more introverted than him. And I know he noticed that (he gave me this feedback during the interview), so I feel quite insecure about it. For some reason I behave much more reserved when I’m with him than with other people as if I was trying to counterbalance him.

    2) I had a horrible job just before this one. Imagine being screamed at, bullied, needing to go on sick leave because of the stress with “trauma after bulling in the workplace” in the diagnosis. This lasted for months and I still dream about it a lot.

    Anyhow, when I go shopping or meet someone in a bar (I don’t drink alcohol) I can be relaxed, talk to new people etc. But at work I’m all stressed and feel like a loser.

    Any advice?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I think you can take a deep breath and not put so much pressure on yourself – you’ve only been there two weeks! In the first two weeks you’re still learning the layout of the building, people’s names, what your role is really going to be, etc. As you settle in, people will get to know you better and your true personality will be able to shine.

      For point #1 – it’s common for people to be a little more reserved with someone above them in the food chain, especially as you get to know them and don’t quite know exactly where the boundary lines will settle. Don’t worry about it so much, time will help you out. And if they mention it again, you can just tell them it takes a little while for you to get comfortable and open up, but you’re sure soon enough you’ll feel settled!

      As for point #2 – congrats for getting out of there, I’m so sorry you had to go through that. That’s not something you can just get over, so don’t beat yourself up for still feeling the aftereffects – you survived something traumatic. I hope you’re able to discuss this with a professional.

      Good luck, I’m rooting for you!

    2. fposte*

      Seconding what Namast’ay says. You’ve been there two weeks. You’re not coming across as much of *anything* to people right now because they don’t know you, and you’re understandably still in the stressful new phase. That’s how new phases are. (It’s okay if you’re not as extroverted as your boss, BTW. He’s not the template of The Way to Be.)

      In most jobs, the “coming across as” comes when they know your work; you’re not going to get a lot of personal engagement from them before that. So give them a chance to know your work, and get some support from people who care for you outside of work.

  139. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Update on my co=worker who’s quitting to work an MLM scheme full time.

    Her attitude has been atrocious since giving notice. She’s been burning bridges left and right, telling people she “doesn’t give a sh*it” about things, or when reminded of an announcement, saying things like, “Oh yeah, I wasn’t paying attention I guess. I’m pretty checked out.” She’s blatantly ignoring the dress code, and one day wore sunglasses indoors most of the day because she said she had a headache. Today she’s spending most of her time watching Hulu on her phone with earbuds in. She’s also trying to promote her scammy business openly, which is 100% prohibited by company policy.

    She is also absolutely convinced at we’re going to be reaching out to her a lot, which of course she will be charging the company for. In her words, “I’ll be fifty bucks for me to even pick up the phone.” This is delusional – she has a lot of excellent documentation, and our team’s workload is absolutely light enough to absorb hers. As is is, most of the time I spend half my day faffing around online because I just don’t have enough work to do, and at least one of my co-workers is in exactly the same situation. And even if all of that wasn’t true, contracting with employees who quit is just not something we’ve ever done. We are going to be fine (through I’m sure they’ll be a few weeks of adjustment and craziness), but she thinks she’s truly irreplaceable.

    Sadly, it is to the point now where our grandboss has categorized her as ineligible to be re-hired into our department, even if she comes crawling back for her job when this whole thing blows up in her face. As I mentioned last week, she doesn’t have a college degree, which is typically required for a position of this type, so her chances of getting the same kind of job anywhere else is zilch. She has really screwed the pooch on this one.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh geez that sounds rough! I’m really glad to hear an update (even if it isn’t a good one except for maybe some preemptive schadenfreude), keep em coming! Hopefully reminding yourself that this unpleasantness has an expiration date will make the rest of her notice period bearable.

    2. CatCat*

      Wow. When reality finally hits, it’s going to hit hard. Hopefully, she can learn from it, but some people never do.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Wow. Sounds like she has been brainwashed by her upline. This is really common “logic” among MLM scams – in order to get someone to sign up to lose money, they have to convince them that earning a wage is “the real scam”, that anyone who works a 9-5 is a drone who must hate their life, and that “working your business” from home is morally better than going to work. It’s honestly really sad.

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        Oh yes, you are absolutely correct. She thinks we’re all a bunch of chuckleheads who have sold our souls to work for The Man. She’s been warned several times that she needs to tread lightly or grandboss might not let her finish out her notice, but again, she thinks she’s made of teflon.

        On the bright side, she is noticeably miffed that we’re not all running around in a panic that next Friday is her last day, or even planning to replace her at this point.

    4. London Calling*

      Oh dear. She’s really fallen for the #bossbabe MLM line and the amazing products, amazing sales, amazing job, life, etc she’s been promised, hasn’t she? I never cease to be amazed at people’s inability to act in their own best interests but then I suppose she thinks that’s what she’s doing.

      Talk about burning bridges so they can be seen from space….

        2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          If you’re a reddit user, check out r/antimlm. It’s a combination of heartbreaking and hilariously delusional stories and posts from people who have been accosted by Huns (so called because of their tendency to cold message people with a generic greeting like “Hey Hun!”)

    5. Peaches*

      Oh goodness. I can’t with this. You should tell her to listen to a podcast called “The Dream”, which focuses on what a scam MLM schemes are.

        2. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

          We have tried to direct her in the past to these and similar resources. She is not interested in hearing alternate information outside of the lies her upline and husband are filling her head with.

          1. valentine*

            She’s going to go down in flames. Some people just won’t be helped. With no contract, how would she know to answer the phone? She would need a contract now. She’ll be back (well, she’ll try), like the lottery winners.

  140. pseudonomnomnom*

    Even with Monday off, it’s been a long week… I had my first ever experience of someone crying during a meeting in my office.

    Any tips for a team lead (me) to try to help short circuit an anxiety spiral that’s affecting someone’s performance? This person does need to improve in some areas of their work, and she knows it, and I think the anxiety about that is making things worse, because one of the areas to improve is the ability to cope with multiple things at once without getting visibly stressed/overwhelmed. I know that I can’t really help her with the mental aspect of it, though. We are having weekly one on ones to review projects and discuss approaches and strategy, which she says helps.

    Not helping things, IMO, is the fact that my boss (who is currently also this person’s official manager) seems to have the expectation that anyone we hire in my area of the department should almost instantly be performing at the same level as me, with barely any training, even if the company they’re coming from is radically different to this one. But maybe my standards for others are too low?

    1. LGC*

      Hi!

      So…my caveat is that I’m not perfect at this. It’s something I struggle with myself – I can come off like your boss to a degree, where I might sometimes expect more than is reasonable. (I’m getting better at reining this in.)

      That said:

      -Your boss has somewhat unreasonable expectations. Even for the most basic job, it’ll take a few days to get used to it at minimum.
      -PLEASE tell your employee this. Not so much that he’s unreasonable, but that he can be demanding of his employees and it’s not a personal thing. (If she’s in danger of being fired, though…things get a little trickier, since that is significant.)
      -Make sure you point out what she’s doing well if you aren’t doing so. (I’m guessing you are, though.)
      -Honestly…is her role outward facing? Is her anxiety disrupting her coworkers? If not, I’d let that slide for a little while.

      On that last part, it’s one of the biggest things I’ve had to learn, and I’m still not perfect at it. Sometimes, it might work better for an employee to work on just one thing at a time – and in this case I’d probably prioritize anything that directly affects her job first.

      As someone who’s wired a bit like your new hire, it sounds like you’re doing great with her, though! Keep it up and good luck!

  141. Piano Girl*

    I am looking forward to re-entering the workforce in the next few months and have a question. I have been doing some part-time freelancing work the last year for one particular client. It’s been interesting to say, the least, as it’s a family company that is struggling to pay their bills. Anyway, as I update my resume, I’d like to know how to treat this on my resume. Can I simply list my time as freelancing, or do I need to name the company that I have been working for? They have been happy with my work, but I’m concerned as to whether they will be a going concern much longer.
    Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      You don’t have to name the company or companies you freelanced for. I would put down what things you did accomplishment-wise. That helps me, the hiring manager, to understand what you can do for me.

      IN fact, I wouldn’t put down the name of the company. If some one is going to judge based on not having multiple clients, then the less you say about your clients the better.

      You can use the one client as a reference.

  142. Earthwalker*

    Curiosity question re: the letter this morning from the person who wants to contact her replacement on a toxic job to find out why she quit after such a short time. (Alison gave a great response.) People also ask AAM, “Now that I’m leaving shouldn’t I tell HR what I *really* think about Toxic Job and how screwy Manager X is?” Alison usually says (IIRC) that good rarely comes from doing that. She’s right, of course, but I have craved hearing that successors thought my toxic ex-job was nuts and have wanted to give toxic ex-managers a piece of my mind even though I knew it would do more harm than good. Why does that feel so important and reasonable? Why is it so hard to just say “good riddance” and move on?

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Humans want and need to feel validated. As a middle school teacher, I am often amazed at how quickly emotional issues can be diffused by listening and then validating. It was one of the most helpful things I learned during my student teaching.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I hear it’s the same with toxic relationships, actually. If you had a bad relationship (family, friendship, dating) you crave the acknowledgement of the other person that they acted crappily and that they suck – but you will hardly ever get that, and pushing for it usually just keeps YOU down. You have to find peace with yourself and move on, not try to get closure from somebody who probably won’t ever give it to you.

  143. Cute Li’l UFO*

    After last week’s CEO meltdown I’ve realized that this place, for a variety of reasons, is not IT.

    On the plus side my coworker and I have a great time shouting “OWN IT!!” at each other.

    That is, of course, what the CEO shouted at me in regards to coding the site in CSS.

    (I do not know how to do that in an efficient or good way at all and the only way we moved on was not me pushing back but rather acquiescing in the end)

  144. Put Upon Federal Worker*

    I just wanted to vent about my federal job. After 3 and a half weeks of being furloughed I received a phone call from my supervisor to come back to work (without pay) and went back starting on last Thursday (the 17th). I don’t know who decided who to recall or why certain people were recalled and other ones were not, but some of the people who were not recalled are mad at the ones who were (which is kind of silly).

    A whole bunch of the people who were recalled requested time off for financial hardship (I don’t blame them), so probably only about half of the people who were recalled are actually on the job. Management at my agency seems to give time off for financial hardship to everyone who asks for it. The influence of the union might be helping here. We’re seriously understaffed. Morale is low and people are distracted, worried and stressed-out. I do think that pretty much everyone who came to work is doing the best they can.

    The last day before the shutdown was December 22. It is seriously weird and creepy to walk through the parts of the office building where no one has been recalled. It is like the land that time forgot. Most of the workers had put up holiday decorations and they’re still there. There are several Christmas trees and menorahs. Different departments and sections decorated their cubicles with themes. There is a “Frozen” section, a “Whoville,” and a “Charlie Brown Christmas” section, among others.

    There are wrapped presents left on peoples’ desks. (I noticed a can of soda with a bow on it that said, “May your days be Merry and Sprite.”) There were bags of potato and taco chips left behind from holiday celebrations before the people left. (Someone went through the building and threw away the open chip bags on Tuesday or Wednesday of this week.) Obviously, the people thought they’d be back at work a few days after they left. No one is emptying the trash or cleaning the restrooms or the break rooms and the trash cans are now overflowing. I’m planning on finding out where the outdoor dumpsters are and emptying them myself if they haven’t been done by Monday. I’ll bring some trash bags from home just in case I can’t find any here at work.

    A local restaurant has started providing free box lunches to the people who are showing up to work. It is a nice gesture and much appreciated. Other businesses are offering free services to unpaid and furloughed federal workers. (I’m going to have to write some thank you notes.) There are a whole bunch of theaters and museums offering free admission to federal workers and their families. Other local businesses report a ripple effect where they’re not getting business from unpaid federal workers, so there is a “trickle-down” effect going on and it is not just federal workers being hurt.

    If the shutdown were to end tomorrow (and I hope it does) things are going to be a mess for quite a while and it will take several weeks (probably months) to get caught up to where we were before the shutdown. (Sigh.)

    1. fposte*

      That image of the Mary Celeste office is kind of creepy. It sounds like the experience is simultaneously enraging and surreal. I wish you good luck and speedy resolution.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      It just ended a few minutes ago—but &*$@(&#% threatened to do it again on Feb. 15th so hang in there. And yes, everyone is getting back pay.

    3. Jaid*

      Oh, jeeze, I was called back last Thursday, and other than the refrigerators needing to be emptied, our cleaning staff was still working. Mind you, we had folks working from the get go, so it had to be done. That or the contract was paid in advance…
      For what it’s worth, half of my unit didn’t come in based on hardship. The rest of us decided yesterday to put in for a hardship, because we didn’t have support staff (manager, lead, clerks), my unit typically has little work to do in January and we were scrounging for work to justify being called in,and y’know. One can’t collect unemployment while working unpaid (at least in PA, your state may vary).
      Anyway, the credit union in my building brought in a couple of hundred pizza pies and gave out pizza and chance tickets to win gift cards. Outside, various charities and a food import/export wholesaler are giving out boxes of food.

  145. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Wish me luck… in an hour I’m going into a meeting where I’m going to be proposing some solutions to cut through red tape.
    To keep it short, I create things that support two divisions …those divisions have overlapping regulatory requirements… and DivisionA has HugeHotProject coming down the pike with large numbers of dinky little pieces that need updating by DivisionB. Technically I’ll be doing the DivisionB minutia updates…but there are several overworked product managers who own some of the pieces. I’m going to suggest I manage the DivisionB section of this project. It could be a very big deal, pulling together the lists of a few hundred dinky little pieces that I need to update, identifying the related product labels that need to be updated by someone else in another country, and coordinating ECN paperwork with the SAP guru in another state.
    If it works, it would be a high-profile win for me AND my department.
    If it flops, well, it wouldn’t be much worse than if no one took it on!

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sigh. Pre-meeting chitchat indicates that the DivisionB part might get postponed until next week or later. So much for initiative. ;)

  146. So very very whiny*

    I’m good at my job. I’ve been doing it for a while (over 15 years). I have excellent (and provable) skills and ridiculously positive references. I’m willing to work for toxic assholes, for crap pay, or to put the job before over my personal life. I can tailor my personality/reactions/humor/working style to the client or person I’m dealing with because I’m generally good at reading and mirroring people. I am, in short, a catch. But I can’t get a full time position. Postings almost always come from recruiters, and the recruiters in my area? Well they love me…on paper and on the phone that is. But in person suddenly I’m “not right for this particular role”. Which I’d buy if they ever came back to me for another position. Lol, not once, not even when I (politely) bug them once a week. Hell, more than a few never respond to any of my e-mails or calls again.

    I am not perfect for every job. I know that. But to be “not right” for ALL the jobs in my area for the past 2 years? If it was my resume, I wouldn’t get the phone calls. If I didn’t present myself well the phone calls wouldn’t lead to in-person meetings. For in-person interviews I dress appropriately, I come prepared, I am polite but warm, I answer questions well, I follow -up with genuine thank you notes. The only difference is that in person they see that I am a) fat and b)have grey hair and don’t wear makeup.

    I’d try (and have tried) for different positions but apparently I’m not “right” for those either, so I feel frustrated and question my skills/worth. At this point even the stupid gumption ideas are starting to sound appealing to me since job searching the “correct” way has been fruitless, apart from making me hate myself. Every job screw-up that I witness or hear about makes me quiver with fury because I look at it and say “I could do better, I HAVE done better! Why the hell am I barely surviving over here, but that moron has a job?” I’m really at the end of my rope. And my question is: Can I just start calling the recruiters out? Should I just make my LinkedIn tag line, “old and fat but brains to spare!”? Cause I need a goddamn job.

    1. So very very whiny*

      I should add that I’m not walking around telling people I’ll work for jerks or for crap pay etc. It’s just that after so long looking you learn the “code” of the ads. When I first started my search I wasn’t applying to the ones where they made it clear that the boss was a jerk, but I’ve passed that level of choosiness.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Oof, that is really crappy. Is there no way to get around the recruiters? I’m just hoping that hiring managers would be more likely to care about your skills and personality.

        I’m sorry.

  147. PolkaDots*

    Hello, longtime lurker, first time poster!

    I just wanted to say that I love my new job. I started looking for another job after almost a year of being under a horrible manager (below, for anyone interested), and I love the new one so far!! I’ve been here for 2 months and my manager doesn’t yell at me, my deadlines are reasonable, and I don’t wake up dreading every day! I also heard last week that my manager has had to hire two people to replace me, which feels pretty good.

    For about a year, I was pretty much doing all of my manager’s work (in addition to my own) in secret while he was getting all the credit and being in the office maybe one day per week and unreachable the rest. I was actually hired by his predecessor, who was awesome. She gave great feedback, cared about how we were doing, and was just really engaged in her work. This new manager was her polar opposite.

    He would forward me a project email a couple of days before the deadline, even though he had received it weeks prior, and then ask me to turn it around in a day or two. These projects were also usually way outside of my role, for example asking me to do a budget forecast or put together a staffing dashboard in Excel while my actual role is communications and multimedia. I did try my best because I like to learn and I get my fulfillment from doing a good job, and actually learned a lot about Excel and reporting, but it was so, so stressful. If a project lead had a question, I was not allowed to respond directly; he would forward me the email, ask that I respond only to him, and he would then copy/paste my response in his own email to them. I found out quite by accident one day when he forwarded me a full thread where this was happening and he was being praised for doing such a great job.

    It got to be extremely stressful because he would hold me accountable for his deadlines and get upset when I sometimes inevitably couldn’t deliver because of a sometimes half-day turnaround. Sometimes this was because he was out of the office (not on PTO), but wouldn’t answer emails or texts on time. He would “forget” that I had time off even though it was on his calendar, and started trying to tell me when I could go on vacation based on his project schedule. Often I would get assignments from him at 4:30PM that he wanted completed for his 9AM meeting the following day. He refused to consider a raise or promotion because he “didn’t feel I was going above and beyond.” I couldn’t even go above him because he was really close friends with his boss. One of my teammates even filed an HR complaint. They not only forwarded it to him, they also basically told her to stop looking for problems (!!!). He would ask for feedback in our 1:1s, but if it was at all negative he would punish us for it by essentially ignoring us for a few days leading to problems getting assignments done. Unfortunately, his boss loves him (they carpool together) and HR is very defensive of upper-management so I imagine he’ll retire there.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Congrats on your new job! May your former boss be caught in a noose woven of his own ineptitude.

  148. writelhd*

    Talk me down from my pole. I suspect one of my fellow managers of treating an employee very stupidly. Nothing illegal, just, a mysterious and out of character refusal to engage with her, and seeming to take offense any time she tries to speak to him. Nobody else is calling him out on this, but one of his other employees quit last week, dropping hints that was in part because of this situation–that he did not want to work for a company where he saw other employees being treated this way and had to be caught in the middle of it. I kind of don’t want to work anymore for a company where managers can treat employees like this, either, truth be told. It’s mostly “not my circus, not my monkeys” but I work some with this department and with these people, and this basic refusal to communicate is not invisible to clients, and that’s not cool and is going to hurt our business. Should I speak up? Speak to his manager? HR? I don’t want to be one of those people who is silent when I see people acting in ways that hurt our company.

    1. JustaCPA*

      Can you talk to your mutual boss about it? I think focusing on the impact to the company, especially with clients, would be the approach to take.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes!
        I’ve watched this at my work. It affects everyone. I hate having to interact with the person doing the shunning of this one employee (now ex-employee- he quit. No question regarding why).

  149. Anon for this*

    We have an x employee who owes us money – I have his W2 and other tax forms for him. My boss wants me to hold them and force him to come into the office to pick up and require him to pay us. I’m thinking thats probably not legal? We’re a small company so dont have a legal or finance department to ask. Help?

    1. Manders*

      I’m not a lawyer, but yeah, refusing to send the tax documents is an extremely bad idea.

      How does this former employee owe the company money? What happened? That’s a very weird situation for the company to be in.

      1. irene adler*

        If nothing else, the ex-employee can contact the IRS about not receiving their W2. The IRS will send a letter to the former employer about providing a W2 for this ex-employee.
        Do you really want to be on the IRS’ radar for this?

        1. Anon for this*

          Nope. Figured it wasn’t a good idea but Boss is sometimes a bit reactionary. He does listen to reason though so…

      2. Anon for this*

        ExEmployee had company property and continued to use it (and incur costs for us) after he was fired.

        1. valentine*

          Send his stuff certified requiring adult signature.

          Is it cheaper to let it go than to hire a lawyer to seek the money (and the equipment?) or go to small-claims court? Is it not possible to redirect demands for payment to him?

    2. Jessen*

      I’d just google “law on sending W2 forms”. What I’m finding is that the business can be liable for fines if w2’s are not received by Jan 31.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Your ex-employee doesn’t actually need their W2 from you. They can get it from the IRS themselves after mid-February. So your boss doesn’t have the leverage they think they have.

      If the company is really wanting to get that money back, then they should go through the courts like anybody else trying to enforce a judgment.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Illegal. The business has a legal responsibility to provide employees with a W2, and that is not negated by a civil matter of the employee owing the business money.

  150. BlueAnon*

    I am six years out of college, 5 of those years I’ve worked for the same company. For people who have been in the workforce longer – at what point does the miserableness of the job outweigh the benefits? I’ve stuck around because I have very good pay, very good benefits and a good circle of friends at work. Otherwise, I’m miserable. The office culture and a lot of the management is toxic. People will go behind your back to management and “tattle” about things they think you aren’t doing well enough or if you were in 5 minutes late, etc. Management will in turn talk about you with each other but never address anything directly to you. And over the past year my job has deteriorated into doing other people’s jobs because management acknowledges those other employees aren’t capable of getting their work done. I feel frozen because I don’t think I’ll find the pay, benefits and flexibility elsewhere, but being here is impacting my mental health.

    1. Anonysand*

      The moment when the toxicity and negativity of your job bleed into your personal life and your mental health is when you should start looking at other options. It definitely sounds like you’re already there.

      As for finding a new position- you may not find another job with the benefits and flexibility you currently have, but you also might be surprised. You’ll never know until you start looking. And even if not, would less flexibility be worth being happier overall? Would decent (but less than what you have now) benefits be worth going into work and not having to worry about anyone else’s job than your own?

      Don’t underestimate the actual, physical value of your own mental health and sanity when thinking about it. It’s a very real factor in the equation. And good luck with whatever you decide to do!

    2. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like you have enough misery to at least start job searching and *check* your impression that the pros you have there wouldn’t be found elsewhere. Also think about it hard – how much of those pros would you be willing to reduce in order not to be miserable at work? Would you still have enough or be able to adjust other things in your life to make that amount work?

      Do some research, think about where else you have flexibility in your life and how you can shift to make room for a smaller amount of pay or vacation time, etc., and you’ll be better situated to decide whether your office is worth continuing to put up with.

    3. irene adler*

      Have you actually looked (i.e. interviewed) to see if you can get same pay, benefits, better work environment, etc. at another job?

      Don’t draw conclusions based on assumptions. Get facts.

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      If you’ve gotten to the point of trying to measure out the miserableness of something, I feel like you’re rapidly approaching the point of no return, if you aren’t already past it.

      You say you don’t think you can get the pay, benefits, and flexibility elsewhere, why not see if this is true? There’s nothing wrong with doing some job-hunting, it doesn’t mean you’re absolutely leaving, you’re just seeing what’s out there. Maybe you’ll find that you can get everything you want somewhere else! Or maybe you can’t find everything you want but they offer something that makes giving something up worth it (maybe it’s less flexible but the environment is healthy and supportive, or maybe it pays a little less but it’s a new field you’re excited about, etc). Or maybe you’ll take a look at the options out there and decide that the problems at your current company are actually worth all of the good things you get – and if you do end up here, it can feel really good knowing that you’re choosing to stay, rather than driving yourself crazy wanting after something that may or may not exist.

      Good luck!

    5. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      You will never know if there is something better out there if you don’t look. You need to start job hunting and get some offers, to truly know. Sounds like it’s time to leave. In some industries, a new job is the only way to big-bump your salary (by 10% or more), something which can be hard to do if you stay at the same job for many years and only get small cost of living raises annually.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Even if you can’t match the salary or benefits anywhere else (I couldn’t, and it’s one reason people don’t leave this company often), it is still worth not only looking for other jobs, but considering what else would make you happy in a work environment. When I had to consider changing my field entirely, I resented the idea initially but then realized I do have other interests that are worth exploring. You’re not obligated to change fields or even jobs, but spending some time on the effort does help break the cycle of thinking you’re trapped.

  151. RandomGradStudent*

    My school is in the process of its annual “interview weekend” for admitting the next class of graduate students. I’ve always liked this and have participated for several years. I got to talking with one of the faculty interviewers about a specific trait we’ve been seeing in more applicants, which is a “gap year” in between undergraduate or master’s programs and graduate school to do something non-academic or not directly related to research. The faculty member was really excited about an applicant because they had taken significant time off to go hiking around the country, but another applicant who took that time off to start a business didn’t get much praise for it.

    Assuming the gap of time off between careers/academic programs is a choice made by the applicant for personal enrichment, (not because of sickness or caring for a relative, etc) how do your fields view this sort of thing? Are some gap time activities seen as adding value to the applicant and some seen as frivolous?

    1. Rainy days*

      I think it’s bizarre that this is considered a gap year, quite frankly. There should not be an expectation that people go directly from degree to degree to degree. In terms of time away from work, I work in the nonprofit education field and caring for relatives, biking, and starting a business would be considered normal parts of life.

      1. RandomGradStudent*

        I tend to agree with you that it shouldn’t be an expectation! I’d say the majority of applicants in my field (biomedical research) at my school still go right from undergrad to a masters or post-bac, which is a year or two of research to build skills before starting a PhD program. While I wouldn’t say it’s an expectation to go from degree to degree, it’s still the most common in my experience, and interviewers always want a detailed explanation of and what skills you learned by doing the activity if there was a “gap”.

        I think the concern is that skills may have gotten rusty from a lot of time off, but that’s interesting that nonprofit education seems to be more relaxed about it! Curious to see how other fields view it too.

  152. Notasecurityguard*

    So I had a question for the crowd based off a dear prudence letter I read this morning: the long and the short of it was the letter writer was browsing Facebook and on the page of an acquaintance she saw he’d taken a photo of his passed out seatmate on a flight and a seperate friend who the letter writer didn’t know joked that the acquaintance should “cop a feel” so the letter writer tracked down where the joker worked (via facebook iirc)and was considering asking his employer to fire him.
    And on one hand I’m sensitive to the fact that that’s a gross joke and possibly indicative of bad behavior and bad behavior in public should have consequence.
    But on the other hand getting fired is a big fucking deal and one out of context joke might not be the most appropriate cause of something so traumatic.
    But I’m also a cishet white dude who works in an industry where a pretty fucked up sense of humor is the norm and it’s a very male-dominated industry (law enforcement for the curious) so my workplace culture norms may be a bit off.
    So yeah I’m curious as to what the crowd thinks.

    1. animaniactoo*

      You call the guy out in the FB post, and you ask FB acquaintance what is wrong with this person, but without evidence of more than a joke you do NOT try to get them fired.

      1. valentine*

        I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t get the attitude that firing is a bridge too far. There’s no context that makes “Sexually assault that person” reasonable or not worth a firing.

    2. Rey*

      I saw that Dear Prudence letter as well. There is definitely a history of people getting fired for social media posts (like Justine Sacco), although I don’t remember the exact details of how the company got the information. I’m not in human resources or public relations, which I assume would be responsible for making the decision.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      When I read the title my first thought was no, but when I read the details I wasn’t so sure. The guy didn’t just write an off-color joke, he made a really f*cked up comment, then doubled down with more f*cked up comments – I quote: “Put her legs up on your lap. See how far you can go. If she wakes up, BLAME IT ON HER”. Where is the joke or humor in this? She also didn’t want to contact his company and tell them to fire him, she was just considering reaching out to them and letting the company deal with it themselves. Part of me feels conflicted about the idea of reaching out to his company, but if he’s going to publicly represent his company, they should know what he’s doing with that.

      Also, I mean this in a kind, non-attacking, please-actually-consider-this way, but in regards to the comment of “getting fired is a big f*cking deal and one out of context joke might not be the most appropriate cause of something so traumatic” – want to know what else is traumatic? Working for someone who thinks the idea of groping an unconscious woman is a joke. Or living in a world surrounded by people who think that a statement like that is “just a joke”, while having that “joke” be an actual thing that happens to them. Again, just something for you to consider, and I truly mean it in a “let’s have a discussion” way.

      I was also curious what the AAM crowd’s opinion was going to be on that question, thanks for posting it!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Oh geezus. TY for the link. Not just random employee but high exec level? Yes. Absolutely contact the company.

      2. animaniactoo*

        Uhm. I missed the details. That was not just an off-color joke about copping a feel.

        That changes my opinion above. Call out the guy on the FB post. If close enough, IM the acquaintance for more info about person – are they generally creepy? Maybe contact company if it’s so easy to find out where they work via the social medium they’re posting on.

    5. irene adler*

      There are details here that were not mentioned. The “separate friend” who joked that the acquaintance should “cop a feel” is the VP of an electronics company. And this VP made an additional comment regarding Harvey Weinstein being innocent. So it may not be one out of context joke. Hard to say, really, without having access to more posts by the VP.

      So on the one hand, yes, firing the guy would have a major effect on his career.
      OTOH, is this the kind of morals a VP of a company should be displaying in public?

      1. RVA Cat*

        This to infinity!

        I think it’s the sort of thing to pass along to the company’s social media team. They should have policies in where to go from there.

        Someone who’s this creepy probably has a history. I’m cringing for any woman who has to work with him.

    6. animaniactoo*

      Sorry, this is about to be my 4th comment to you – as details were revealed I changed my opinion.

      It’s both interesting and alarming to me that you SO minimized the situation into something that seemed almost jerky-but-not-awful. It looks to me like your workplace norms are not just off but have lead you to a place where you literally can’t frame and verbalize the level of seriousness the situation is.

      From the female side, I’m going to post something (I’ll do it as a separate post beneath this one) that I wrote elsewhere about the kinds of experiences that I, as a woman, had growing up, and maybe it will give you a better frame of reference for why this is SO SO wrong and needs to be pushed back hard against.

      1. animaniactoo*

        “This is my experience of growing up and the messages I learned about sex and consent. I know that my experience is not unique – from talking to many many women across the country in person and in forums and on column threads about these kinds of issues. From reading comments even when I was not part of the discussion. From watching how reporting happens around such issues. It’s not every woman’s experience. But it is the experience of far too many women.

        Note: I am not saying that men do not have their own struggles that they deal with in terms of societal expectations and responses. I am only talking about what women deal with since you asked the question of why she would wait that long to bring it up.

        My parents are politically active people. They raised me to speak up and speak out. And yet – here I am.
        I am 10 years old. It’s been 4 years since the producers of General Hospital have responded to the popularity of Luke & Laura by switching the aftermath of a clear case of acquaintance rape to an “overwhelming passion” storyline. I’ve been hearing for awhile that boys pick on girls and do stuff like pulling pigtails because they like them and that’s how they show it. I have started to develop ahead of most girls my age – but I can be taken for no more than 13 at the most. This is the age at which I start getting catcalled and whistled at when I dress in something that is not relatively shapeless and am walking down a block by myself. I am slightly on the chunky side. It scares my badly the first time it happens – I go home and pick a fight with my sister because I have no idea how to handle it. I don’t talk to my parents about it because I already basically understand there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.

        I am 12 years old. Still slightly chunky, and a socially awkward not very popular child. I am on a public bus on my way to school in the morning. My 10 year old sister is with me. The bus is crowded, and we’re all fairly squeezed. That’s normal for NYC. A man who looks enough like my Social Studies teacher to be his brother gets on the bus and stands behind me. He starts to grind himself into my rear end. I am frightened out of my mind and have no idea what is going on or why this is happening to me. I squeeze and move out from in front of him. He moves in back of me again. Positioning himself so that I have been cut off from my sister (it is clear that we are together). I move again. So does he. We keep repeating this strange dance. I can see in the faces of the people sitting down that they can tell that something is going on, there’s something wrong. But not a single one of them speaks up or says anything. I get off at the next stop. I don’t tell my teachers or anyone at school – because what could they do about it? It’s already done. I DO go home and tell my parents about it. The next day, my father rides the bus to school with me. But the guy isn’t there. It’s done, there’s nothing to be done now.

        I am 14 years old. I take the train to high school by myself. I have found a way to keep the creepers from being able to make contact with me! Whenever one tries I turn sideways and stick my elbow out so they can’t get close enough to me. Every time I do it I smirk to myself and I am SO PROUD of myself for figuring out how to deal with them without calling attention to myself – because I have basically absorbed the idea that unless I am standing up and fighting for a cause, my job is not to call attention to myself. P.S. I waver back and forth between wearing clothes that I feel look good on me and clothes that will “hide” me. I am actually not chunky but I only know that from photos and not my own memory of me at that age.

        I am 18 – Clarence Hill and Anita Thomas are in the spotlight. I watch with fascination and I take away the confirmation of everything I have seen throughout my life: If you speak up you’re a ball-breaking bitch. Or you’re “too sensitive”. And it won’t matter much anyway.

        I am 20 – I’ve moved out of my parent’s house and am self-supporting. I hang out with a group of people who party a lot – mostly clubs and drinking and parties at whoever’s house is available. I’m finally somewhat popular – but more on the fringes. I’m headed back towards being on the chunky side. One night, I fall asleep at the house of a guy I’m attracted to and have been making out with some. There were 6 of us there, we were just chilling out and I’d had a really long day. I wake up and I am dressed, but I am sore between the legs. I can tell that something was tried. I bust him – and he looks *surprised* that I can tell. I go home and never talk to him again. This is the supported action among my group of friends – and even co-workers who I mention this to. There’s just not that much to be done about it you see. Not in any way that something serious will happen or change anything.

        I am 23. I go to a friend’s comedy act. He makes jokes about women perving on guys on the Subway. I know that my own experience with subway creepers is pretty common – although I’m no longer the target. I’ve outgrown them you see – I’m too tall and I look like I can handle myself. I talk to him about it and he’s sympathetic but I can see that he doesn’t quite really get it. And all of a sudden it hits me that I was *wrong*. I am SO PISSED. Because suddenly, I know what I SHOULD have been doing is looking over my shoulder and telling those guys loudly and publicly “Pardon me. Would you mind get your _____ out of my _____?” And to hell with the comments that would have come my way. How do I know they’d have come my way? Because I’ve spent over a decade listening to them being said about other girls and women around me. “Who does she think she is?” “Like anyone would be desperate enough for that.” “She should be so lucky” “It’s crowded. She misunderstood. He couldn’t help it. She’s got a dirty freaking mind” “Well she should have known given XYX” and so on. I’m ashamed to say I even made some of the latter comments myself. I am so ashamed of that and I apologize thoroughly to the women that I said or thought them about.
        Please remember throughout all of this – I have been trained to be brave and speak up against injustice. Racism. Sexism. Unfair wages. Police brutality. And still – did not manage to learn that THIS. THIS is also a place to speak up and take your lumps. It’s so much more personal you see. It’s the intimacy of your own body. It’s the judgement of others on how attractive that body is. How did I handle myself? Did I stand wrong? Was something showing? To speak up is to invite more attention, more comments, more judgement. About me and my body. Which I am not comfortable in given all of my varied experiences and societal understanding of what I am supposed to be doing.

        I’m 45 now. 2 years ago we watched a judge sentence Brock Turner to 6 months in jail for raping an unconscious woman. Because that judge does not believe Turner’s life should be “ruined” by a “mistake”. He thinks Turner will have learnt his lesson and will go on to be a good boy from now on. The only surprise of this sentence is HOW lenient it is. It takes 2 years for that judge to be recalled from the bench – and there are message boards full of lawyers and judges who are concerned that the recall sends the wrong message – that one hideously mistaken completely inappropriate sentencing might be the grounds for recall. Should mistakes be handled so harshly? Will people now question them and the actions they take? MeToo has already taken off. But outside of a smattering of very big headline specific cases, it doesn’t seem to actually be making much of an impact.”

        1. animaniactoo*

          If at least half the women in this country experience something like this – what do you think the impact of “jokes” like that guy was making is? How much do you think they minimize and diminish the ability of women to speak up about what actually happens to them, and how much do you think they encourage the behavior that is not okay?

          It’s all part of a mindset – and the more you normalize a mindset by joking about it, the more you diminish the seriousness of the actual acts. This is even more true when you are a higher level representative/authority and are seen as a leader. Should not a leader be someone who indicates what IS acceptable? If they’re not doing that, why are they a leader? How much more damage can they do as a leader to MORE people than is done to them by losing their position as a leader? Which is greater?

          1. JustaCPA*

            Thank you for sharing and I’m sorry. And #METOO I have a teenage daughter and a super supportive wonderful husband and he was flabbergasted when I explained just SOME of the situations I’ve been in [how I would handle them now (vs back then)]

    7. Temperance*

      If it’s easy to connect him with his workplace, and he is in a position of power, she should absolutely forward it to his employer. Not only is he a company representative, he also presumably has direct reports. Do we want someone in power who makes such vile “jokes”?

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If you’re so f*cking stupid (or so confident that everyone around you thinks groping a stranger is funny) that you post things like “hey you should sexually assault that woman” under your real name on a widely-visible social media site, you are too f*cking stupid to be the VP of a houseplant, let alone a business.

      If you think getting fired is traumatic, consider what it would feel like to have a stranger post pics of you online like “hey should I sexually assault this person?”

      Having the bad judgment to put something like that online under your real name tells me that you might well have the bad judgment to put it in the office.

      Your workplace culture norms are way, way off, in a way that scares me deeply.

      2. Notasecurityguard*

        Well keep in mind we (probably) work in very different worlds with very different norms. Like your shitty day at the office is a coworker being creepy whereas my kind of shitty day involves me getting punched in the face, Or having to tell the parent of an 11 year old child with intellectual disabilities that their son was molested, or having to tell a father his daughter tried to kill herself and I’m currently at the hospital with her and it’s touch and go so he should hustle (she ended up living btw). Which yeah those have been my bad days at the office so yeah my perspectives are a bit different (Which isn’t to say that a culture like the one the LW was concerned about is A OK. I chose to put myself in a job where part of the training is what to do if you get shot, nobody should have to work for a Weinstein.

        Also I didn’t realize this guy was high up which changes things, both because he’s less likely to be two missed paychecks away from homelessness and also he’s in a position to create a shit workplace culture

        1. animaniactoo*

          Please understand. It’s not just the guy being creepy. It’s the constant mental conversation you have with yourself “How out of line was that? How serious do I think he was? How much of an issue am I going to be creating for myself if I make a fuss about this?” – and that would be true even if the guy is much lower. Because if he’s been tolerated this long, what does that mean about the views of the people above him in a position to act who… haven’t acted?

          A lot of times, women (and sometimes men) don’t speak up because speaking up is a problem when they’re two missed paychecks away from homelessness themselves. Because speaking up paints a target on their backs and they might be first up in the next round of layoffs or edged out for something “unrelated”. Sometimes that devil’s bargain works out just fine, and then sometimes they end up with jerkface copping a feel when he can “plausibly” explain how it was an accident.

          I appreciate that you recognize the greater issue when he’s a higher up guy. But I’ll give you the same challenge I gave the guy I originally wrote my post above for. Talk to the women in your life. Ask them how many of them have had experiences similar to mine. Ask them what they think it would take for children to stop having those experiences. For that matter, ask the boys/men too. See how that affects your perception of how bad those comments were and why.

          1. Notasecurityguard*

            I guess part of me is just fatalistic about this kind of stuff because I’m pretty sure you can’t eradicate asshole and I think a more practical solution than trying to eradicate grossness is to create a society where nobody is two missed paychecks away from homelessness. That way people can leave shitty situations faster or hold off on working for a creep

            (I’m a big fan of UBI or a jobs garuntee so unemployment isn’t as devastating. Once that’s in place then fire this Weinstein defending schmuck)

            1. animaniactoo*

              I’m pretty sure we can do both. And I would argue that’s what we should fight for. You can’t eradicate asshole. You CAN eradicate tolerance for asshole. I think it starts with what we teach our kids, and model for them. Including fighting for UBI and/or some other forms of job protections (limits on ability to financially exploit workers, closing the wage gap from lowest to highest, automatic adjustments to minimum wage tied to COL/inflation so that nobody has to *convince* anyone that low-income people deserve to get paid more).

              While I don’t normally post on the Saturday open thread, I’m up for continuing this discussion there and talking about what I think some of the messages that we get wrong are and what I think needs to change to get it right. Any interest in doing that?

            2. Parenthetically*

              We can’t eradicate this particular evil (and it is an evil, not just “grossness” or “gross jokes” or “bad behavior” or one person being a “creep” as you are attempting to handwave this away as), so we shouldn’t even try? That’s a shitty mindset and it’s going to result in a whole lot more tolerance for blatant, illegal sexual assault like the kind this guy was “joking” about while we wait around for your job-freedom utopia where we are somehow now allowed to fire rapists and sexual predators.

              Screenshot “joke.” Email screenshots to bosses with pointed question about how Mr. VP Jagoff represents the company with this kind of “humor.” It’s still up to the bosses to fire, reprimand, or do nothing, but at least the letter writer has done her part to stand up against shitty behavior.

              You seriously need to take a hard look at why your immediate impulse was to downplay the actions of someone who urged a friend to sexually assault an unconscious stranger and then stuck up for a serial rapist. Why, in your mind, is getting yourself fired for your own stupidity worse than having your image used for someone’s sick rape fantasy without your consent?

    9. Windy City*

      I think you are grossly understating the level of unacceptable behaviour that this situation actually involved, in a worrying and rather revealing way. This was NOT “one out of context joke”, not by a long shot. This was repeated, persistent comments about perpetrating sexual assault. This was doubling-down on behaviour that condones rape culture. That you don’t see that says something worrying, from my perspective. Maybe it’s time to do some reading and listening to the experiences of women dealing with this Every. Damn. Day.

    10. Ann O.*

      I feel conflicted here. It was a horrible, horrible thing to say. And the FB acquaintance who had taken a photo was a horrible person. I’ve actually been groped while almost asleep on an airplaine–I had my hair and arm stroked on a redeye when I was on my way to a funeral–and it was so horribly violating.

      But I am also really opposed to people’s non-workplace non-illegal actions being used against them in employment. The whole world of social media is this new, horrible thing that blends private/public and all of our social spheres and upends all of our norms, but I honestly think we need space to make mistakes and be horrible people. If you would never consider going to someone’s workplace because someone made a horrible comment at a party, I don’t think we should do it over FB posts. I think we should call them out directly and do our best to make them uncomfortable enough to delete the comment.

  153. Stacysmom*

    How do you know if your frustrations with work are realistic? I started a new job about a year ago and I … kinda hate it? But I can’t tell if that’s reasonable or not. Everyone else here seems to be drinking to coolaid.

    I also went through some pretty major life changes around the same time (relationship and health) so it’s hard to tease out if my frustrations are just a big jumble or truly work-specific.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Maybe the work environment is a good fit for others and not for you and that’s just different something that’s not reasonable or unreasonable?

      What is it that’s frustrating you about your work environment?

      1. Stacysmom*

        The work isn’t what I was expecting. Everything is incredibly weighted down in processes that seem very redundant. There are a couple of coworkers I find grating… I’m in a cube farm instead of my own office. Our technology is from 1995. Life seems like a walking version of a dilbert comic (but everyone else seems to think these things are all normal?!).

        BUT I’m finally permanent (hopped around on contracts previously) and everyone seems to like me?!

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I so feel this! I can’t figure out why I have such a hard time going to work every day and keeping busy for all eight hours. Everybody else seems to do it no problem – it seems like I’m the only one struggling. I just … hate spending so much of my day doing boring tasks. I think some of it is field dependent, maybe you’re just not energized by the type of work you’re doing (eg, not enough interaction with people, not enough creative time, not enough to do) and some of it is just the inevitable grind of our capitalist society.

      My personal standard is, you shouldn’t hate going to your job so much that you seriously get depressed on Sunday nights, or that you spend your nights awake and fretting about it, or that you’re crying often/every day on the way home. Sometimes it’s coping skills that are required, but really I think everybody should be able to find some type of work that passes this relatively low bar, and if you’re not there, keep trying.

      1. Stacysmom*

        I appreciate knowing I’m not alone in this! I feel like I tolerate my job, but I don’t look forward to it. I don’t cry over it, but I feel like it should bring me at least a little happiness instead of requiring me to monitor my annoyance all the time?

    3. MMM*

      It sounds like you’re at my exact old job (hello 1995 systems)! I started out being fine with it, and eventually grew to resent/actively hate it. All the while, I couldn’t believe that no one else seemed to be as miserable as I was, and in fact seemed to put so many extra hours in! Eventually I just had to accept that it absolutely was not the right fit for me for many reasons, but I guess some of those reasons could have made it perfect for everyone else, who knows? It just comes down to how you feel getting up for work every day and if you decide it’s not ultimately somewhere you see a future (or at least putting you on the path to what you want in terms of a future job) then I wouldn’t feel bad at least seeing what else is out there

  154. Ali G*

    OK guys I need help – I need a huge kick in the arse.
    I started my new job just about 4 months ago. I LOVE it. Love my boss, love most of my co-workers (there is some old drama I need to skirt around, but nothing that really affects me), and the work can be very fulfilling. I achieved my goal of moving out of being a technical expert and into project facilitation and network engagement on technical issues – which is really a great fit for me.
    My problem? My job has so many disparate parts I can sometimes feel like I don’t know where to start. There isn’t a natural progressions of “OK I need to do this, before I can do that, and then X, Y and Z.” It’s more “These 10 things need to get done.” And I find it is hard to get started on any one thing.
    Then my boss emailed me this morning while he is on travel to say thanks for keeping on top of some stuff while he is out and how he bragged about me and my new role (!!!) to a bunch of huge/big name/high dollar potential donors!!!!
    I feel like I am letting him down and working up to my potential. Anyone have any tips for overcoming this hump and just diving into a bunch of unrelated stuff that I need to get done?? I’m like a deer in the headlights!

    1. animaniactoo*

      If I’m really stuck, I’ll go do 2 or 3 of the easiest things to get done. Because then there’s less stuff in front of me, and I’ve gotten myself into work groove and I can take a 5 min break before tackling the next one.

      Otherwise, I’ll tackle the hardest doable without delaying the others too much project – because getting that load off me makes the rest of it seem like a breeze.

      Sometimes, it’s all about the deadlines. I have 4 unrelated projects. Which ones need to be done sooner? Which ones will I have enough time for if I work on them later? Put those aside and hit the sooner deadlines. Start there and keep moving through it.

      It sounds like you need to adjust your evaluation process from “what has to be done to make item Z happen” and working back from there, to “How do I prioritize the unrelated tasks so that I can get them all done by X?” and then you’ll be fine going forward. If some of these tasks regularly fall into the same “category”, it may make the most sense to divide them up that way and tackle As in the morning and Bs in the afternoon, with room to shift if one or the other becomes needs attention sooner and so on.

      1. Anonysand*

        All of this. As someone with a lot of unrelated tasks and roles in specific parts of a project, these are all good places to start. And sometimes you might have 3 things to do that have similar deadlines, and it comes down to non-important criteria like “What seems most interesting to work on today?” or “I can’t stand to look at math and spreadsheets today, what’s on my to-do list that uses a bit more creativity?”

        Also, sometimes it can help to start tackling the small jobs first rather than the big ones. When your to-do list is 8 items long but 4 of them are an hour or so each, it feels really nice (and motivating) to be able to power through half your list in an afternoon.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I struggle with this same issue, so I will be lurking here hoping for some magical advice.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      This is my job… sadly I mainly work to deadlines and fires.

      Sometimes there’s no real consistent method to how I organize my work. It helps that I tend to operate in a scattershot fashion anyway so linear is not really my thing. Mostly I just dive in to something until I get pulled in another direction and then work my way back to finally get the first thing done. I also tend to work in 5-10 minute increments it’s pretty rare that I’ll be able to sit down and do ThingA from start to finish.

      As an example, yesterday I had a job description I was updating and it was open on my desktop all day. I’d work on it for 5 minutes in between meetings or work on it for 10 minutes and then get interrupted by something and come back to it 2 hours later. I finally finished it at the end of the day! Multiply this one task by 10 and I randomly work on all of them at once while adding new things and finishing others.

      So there is an advantage to work that isn’t linear. It means that as your day fills up you can pick and choose what best fits into the time you have. So if you have 10 minutes after a meeting lets out early, you can pick up that quick thing, and get it off your plate. If you have a chunk of time you can choose that juicy project that needs some close attention and concentration.

  155. Watry*

    Tl;dr I got a new job and my training is inconsistent and much less than what’s it’s supposed to be.

    I was hired back in October for a data entry position and ended up covering for a coworker on long term sick leave. Then two of our full timers left and I was moved into one of those. The other is still empty. (Local government. I applied in June, did not hear back until September, another month in background checks before I even got the interview.)

    I and my now ex supervisor were the only ones trained in my tasks. My grandboss was very unhappy so this is changing, but due to understaffing I was trying to train for New Job while still doing old tasks, meaning that very little of my training counted towards my required time. Sick Coworker has returned to work so most of Old Job has gone back to her, so that’s nice. But at some point my trainer was asked to move departments. So I’m being trained essentially by whoever is working, which my coworkers are not happy about. And again, we are understaffed. I’m supposed to have two weeks of training on phones. I got two hours and had to cover lunches today. I absolutely flailed. My coworkers have pushed back on both my and their behalf but there’s literally nothing to be done as the command staff is asking for documented need before we can get permission to hire. I am anxiety-ridden and no one is blaming me for anything, but this isn’t tenable. I’m coming from retail and call centers where this is common. I need to know if I should have expected something like this and maybe some advice on pushing through until new hires can be made (including a full time trainer if we can get one).

    Sorry for all the extraneous info but this is partially a vent post and I needed to see it all set down.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Given how hard your co-workers are pushing back and unhappy about this situation, it sounds like it is not Situation Normal for them with new training setup.

      As far as advice on pushing through – talk to your manager, ask them for help sorting out what you can try and handle and what you’re going to need to hand off, and how to manage. Phrase it as wanting to do the work but not wanting to do it wrong when it’s potentially sensitive and could create a bigger issue.

    2. Overeducated*

      Sounds like I might be back at work Monday! I’m 2/3 relieved, 1/3 disappointed, and I am pretty sure the 1/3 is rooted in how much extra family time I’ve gotten in the last month. Commuting sucks. It’s been so nice not waking up an hour before my family and setting off to work before my kid wakes up. The rotten thing is that we’re looking at buying a house closer to my spouse’s work, and the only direction for my commute to go is up. Sigh.

      Now, to find out if my work is irreparably screwed up for the rest of the fiscal year, or salvageable…..

  156. Peaches*

    Have you ever had a work incident happen that still makes you mad years later?

    I live about 15 minutes from my office. There is never any traffic on my commute. However, two years ago on a Monday, I was watching the news before work, and saw that there was a major accident on the route I take to work. My job starts at 7:30 A.M., so I usually leave around 7:10/7:15. After seeing the news that day, though, I left at 6:55 A.M. Even by proactively leaving early, I was 8 minutes late to work, arriving at 7:38 (I don’t recall ever being even a minute late any other time).

    At the end of the week, I turned in my time sheet as usual. My manager, who everyone knew was on a PIP at the time (that’s another story, my manager’s manager shared things he shouldn’t have) came over and asked me if I’d “made sure to shorten my lunches to make up for being late on Monday.” I actually could not believe she would say that to me as a high performer who had never been late before (I’d worked here for two years at the time). It still irks me to this day. It was EIGHT MINUTES. The funny thing is that my manager was on a PIP primarily for being hours late to the office all the time, and leaving hours early. So, had she not been on the PIP, she definitely would have arrived to the office much later than me (before being put on the PIP, she was never there before 8:30 A.M.)

    LOL, anyway. I just think about it sometimes and get mad all over again. I should note this person is no longer my manager, but still works here.

    What are your work horror stories that still give you nightmares?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      The HR person I worked with years ago who had an email auto-reply that said she only responded to emails on Fridays. (Or something equally ridiculous.) That wasn’t even the only outrageous thing she did! But I’m still mad about it.

    2. Catsaber*

      There are a couple of Office Jerks that still bother my psyche from time to time.

      Related to your experience, I had a former manager who was always coming in late, leaving early, taking long lunches, etc. I can’t forget the time we were all in a training class and I came back in a few minutes late after the lunch break, and he very loudly and pointedly coughed as I arrived, as in “Don’t be late next time!!!” It didn’t even matter, as the instructor hadn’t started back up yet. That still annoys me!

    3. Rebecca*

      In the late 1980’s the economy was bad, so my workplace decided to be fair that all non-exempt people in the office would be laid off 5 days out of every 10 days. We had to come to work on alternating days, so it wasn’t even like we got too many days off in a row (couldn’t have that). So it was like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Tuesday, Thursday, that type of thing. That way we could get partial unemployment benefits. It was fair to a point – some of us had much heavier work loads than others. People were supposed to help out others who were off on their layoff days. In reality, that didn’t happen because, well, people were not happy about the schedule, lowered pay, etc.

      So – my workload was heavy. I didn’t get my work done. I asked if I could work more days to do my work, was told “no”, everyone has to endure the same schedule. My work continued not to get done. I begged my manager to let me work more hours or to make sure someone stepped in when I was off. The next thing I knew, I was written up for not getting my work done in a timely manner. I had to sign it, agreeing that I did not complete my work as instructed, and it went in my personnel file.

      I still get mad when I think about how stupid this was.

      1. Lost*

        In that type of situation, would you be able to write a note about why the write-up is wrong before signing?

        The opposite situation, but at a previous job I went through a long period of not having enough work and was constantly having to ask for something to do. One day, after finishing my usual tasks, I asked all my teammates if they needed any help to no avail. I went to my supervisor’s cubicle but she weren’t there, so I returned to my desk to watch some videos from an HR e-mail while I waited for her to get back. My supervisor showed up at my cubicle 15 minutes later and asked what I was up to. When I told her I couldn’t find any work to do and was watching the HR videos while waiting for her to return, she scolded me angrily for “sitting around and doing nothing” when I should have e-mailed her to let her know I needed work (she had previously told me she prefers people to go to their desk instead of e-mail). And then it took her two hours before she got back to me with work to do. I hate people who get mad at me for situations I can’t control and I hate people who expect me to know when I’m supposed to do the opposite of what they’ve previously told me to do.

    4. CheeryO*

      When I was new at my current job, my parking spot was awkwardly positioned near another driveway. I ALWAYS made sure to drive slowly and carefully when I was coming and going since it was kind of a blind corner. One day, I had just backed up and put my car in drive – I hadn’t even started to accelerate! – and my coworker popped out of nowhere and started walking across the parking lot without even looking for cars. I braked right away and smiled at him – I was nowhere NEAR hitting him – and he gave me a look of terror and then emailed me to say I needed to SLOW DOWN IN THE PARKING LOT!!!!!!!!!!! Years later, I came back from lunch to find this same guy sitting at my computer, logged in to his account, trying to use a new scanner that I was storing at my desk – it wasn’t even hooked up! I still can’t even look at him without getting mad.

    5. Deb Morgan*

      One of my coworkers from my old toxic job used to put files I’d asked her to scan into a shared file on the network called THIS DOES NOT NEED TO BE SCANNED instead of, you know, talking to me? She was a piece of work. That whole company went under, so best of luck to her, I guess.

  157. Watry*

    Tl;dr I got a new job and my training is inconsistent and much less than what’s it’s supposed to be.

    I was hired back in October for a part time data entry position and ended up covering for a coworker on long term sick leave. Then two of our full timers left and I was moved into one of those positions. The other is still empty. (Local government. I applied in June, did not hear back until September, another month in background checks before I even got the interview.)

    I and my now ex supervisor were the only ones trained in my tasks. My grandboss was very unhappy so this is changing, but due to understaffing I was trying to train for New Job while still doing old tasks, meaning that very little of my training counted towards my required time. Sick Coworker has returned to work so most of Old Job has gone back to her, so that’s nice. But at some point my trainer was asked to move departments. So I’m being trained essentially by whoever is working, which my coworkers are not happy about. And again, we are understaffed. I’m supposed to have two weeks of training on phones. I got two hours and had to cover lunches today. I absolutely flailed. My coworkers have pushed back on both my and their behalf but there’s literally nothing to be done as the command staff is asking for documented need before we can get permission to hire. I am anxiety-ridden and no one is blaming me for anything, but this isn’t tenable. I’m coming from retail and call centers where this is common. I need to know if I should have expected something like this and maybe some advice on pushing through until new hires can be made (including a full time trainer if we can get one).

    Sorry for all the extraneous info but this is partially a vent post and I needed to see it all set down.

  158. DriverB*

    I moved to a new office a couple of months ago. I’m on a lot of video calls and there is a big, blank white wall behind me – it looks like I’m in some kind of business prison or clinic. The rest of my space looks nice and has some photos, a bookcase, etc., but I can’t move my desk. What should I put up behind me that would be appropriate and not too distracting? I was thinking maybe a map or some old calendar pages as art, but suggestions are welcome. I work at a large social service research agency, for context.

    1. Catsaber*

      I think calendar pages would be good, if they are something really generic like flowers or landscapes. I had a large wall map for a while and people kept asking me if I’d traveled or other random map-related questions. You could also find some abstract art prints or something so there’s just some color and visual interest but it’s not an object.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Can you get a faux plant (or a real one if you’re a green thumb) and just some wall art? It doesn’t have to be fancy, you could go the Goodwill route. Heck, even a payroll calendar thrown in and some pencil cup action can help.

  159. Brandy*

    Any management consultants/recovering consultants out there? My business partner and I are looking to hire someone that has Big firm consulting experience to help us grow our healthcare consulting practice. Ideally part time as contractor but we’d consider full time.

    I’m not posting a job ad here- but curious where/how I might find and network with folks like this. I have reached out to my friends in mgmt consulting and they are connecting me with people, but is my only real option networking? We don’t care where this person is located, but we would want them +/- our time zone to make logistics easier.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Look up movemeon – its UK based but I have seen job ads on there for remote work/positions in the US. They have a registration process where you have to list school/firms/roles you were in to get an invitation to join. Lots of ex or looking to be ex consultants and/or current contractors on there with M/B/B or Big 4 experience.

      Networking tends to be how these folks get these types of jobs in the first place, so you are doing the right thing here!

  160. Nola Gal*

    Hi, Everyone. Weird week here. I’m in Louisiana, and most of the area is still bummed about the loss of the Saints game on Sunday. Monday in the office, there was as much talk about the game as there was about actual work. The talk has slowly dwindled over the course of the week, but it still takes up more time than a normal office should spend talking about non-work items. Further, attitudes have been affected by it. Several people are actually acting like their best friend died and walking around with gloomy faces. One person is extra grouchy and is yelling at people more than normal.

    Anyone else dealing with this, this week, or had to deal with similar situations?

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I work from home and live alone, so I am not suffering like you are.

      I’m sick of the ridiculousness, though. I watched the game and was very disappointed by the outcome. I was bummed on Monday for sure. But by Wednesday, I wanted to yell at the people and the news channels thinking it was a vast conspiracy (rather than a mistake) or thinking lawsuits and petitions to have the game replayed to join the rest of us in the real world.

      IMO failing to understand how things work make people look dumb. Boycott the Super Bowl; probably no impact but that makes your point. Actually ask the NFL to fix the problem in the future is doable. Trying to get a rematch this weekend is delusional. Just move on, people. It’s Mardi Gras season. King Cake Fest is this weekend. Parades start in 2 weeks.

      1. Nola Gal*

        We’re home of Jim Garrison’s investigation of the Kennedy Assassination and Bounty Gate. This town was built on conspiracy theories.

        Really hoping things get back to normal next week, but will probably have to wait until after the Super Bowl.

        1. valentine*

          A loss is a loss. Let them grieve. It’s understandable to be disappointed if you were counting on something to lift your spirits, but were foiled again.

    3. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I’m from Pittsburgh. What you describe is every Monday after a Steelers loss. This season was especially bad.

    4. Plain Jane*

      I’m a Vikings fan and we didn’t get over that NFC game against you from like 10 years ago until last year :)

    5. Ali G*

      As an Eagles fan, the only thing worse than losing to NO, was NO losing and not advancing to the SuperBowl. Mostly because I think they are more equipped to beat the Patriots and that is all I care about at this point (and Alvin Kamarra is my secret boyfriend).

    6. Peaches*

      Chiefs fan in Kansas City here. Same thing has been going on in my office all week. I’m a huge sports fan and was equally distraught as my coworkers on Monday, but I can’t say it has had an influence on how much work I’ve gotten done. Honestly, work has been a good distraction this week from my sadness. If I weren’t at work, I’d just be at home sulking about the loss and reading articles about how Tom Brady is the worst, what could have been if Dee Ford wasn’t offsides, etc.

      1. Peaches*

        Might I add though, we have Mahomes, and I’m confident we will be in the Super Bowl (and likely win one) in the next 5 years. So…I can’t stay sad for too long. ;)

  161. TechWorker*

    How do you handle availability across time zones? I’m involved in some time sensitive work this week where most of the other people/managers are in the US. (I’m in Europe). The work needed actually isn’t my teams, a US team has failed to meet their dependencies but I’ve had a lot of work a) showing it’s not us, b) testing their various, bad, fixes and c) responding to fairly aggressive/angry emails. A couple of times this week the program manager has instant messaged me things like ‘we might need to sync up, I’ll talk to and let you know’. I’ve explained that I don’t think we do need to sync up/I already have/there’s nothing waiting on us, etc, but it leaves me in this state where I’m sort of waiting for her ok – but also it’s 7/8pm and she might never get back to me and I just want to go home.

    Today I’ve left – and she might complain.. but I need downtime after working late all this week. How would you handle this? (This person is a program manager, they’re not *my* manager and my manager would be a-ok with me leaving at a sensible time).

    1. animaniactoo*

      Set a standard – if they want to sync up, the need to have set a time when both of you are in the office. Or if one or the other of you needs to stay late or come in early in order to talk, that has to be set by the time you would normally leave work. If it hasn’t happened by then, it will happen when you’re next at work.

      If you think you don’t have the gravitas to set that standard kick it up to your manager as scheduling practices that needs to be sorted out with the US team.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Also, loop your manager in, if they’re not already aware. Brief them on the situation, what is in your hands (not much) to achieve and what is dependent on the other team (pretty much all of it). Let your manager know the general emotional temperature of the situation, and let them know you’re reading them in more because it looks like other team is trying to make this your team’s fault when it clearly isn’t. You can also mention that you’re not sure how late you need to be staying when the other team leaves you hanging like that. You’re not necessarily asking your manager to do anything. Your manager may have insight or instructions, or heck, may step in somewhere over your head to get things sorted out, or they may just say you’re doing great but you don’t have to stay late.

    3. Ali G*

      If the US really isn’t waiting on you, then I would respond with something along the lines of “I am available until X time if you need to talk today. Otherwise, let me know when you have finished Y task, and we can talk on Monday.”

      1. TechWorker*

        Thanks all! My managers been away this week but his manager (who is director level) is aware and explicitly told me I didn’t need to work this weekend. It’s reassuring to have others back up that I’m being reasonable though. The thing about going awol on Friday is that, yes, in a sane world things could wait til Monday but there will be folks in the US and India working all weekend (and even if not, India works Monday before I get online) and the expectations from the high ups in that direction aren’t always reasonable (eg ‘someone has to make this work right now’ and they just keep sending angry emails even though it’s been made very clear the delay is not on us). It’s been a stressful week!

        1. TechWorker*

          Also some of the people sending panicky emails genuinely are quite high up (senior director level) & seem to have basically no appreciation for timezones or sleep…

  162. Astrea*

    My renewed independent-contractor contract got a pay raise for 2019, my third since I started working for this organization in 2015. It won’t increase my income much (I work very part-time), but it affirms that they still want me despite my mistakes and are committed to paying me relatively well despite their chronically precarious finances.

    I got rejected for an Absolute Dream Job — that is, one which centered on precisely the work I love most and do best — which I had applied for more than a month ago and mostly managed to stop thinking about by now. I don’t know if it was because I live out of state and would need to relocate, or because I have a small amount of the “preferred but not required” supervisory experience and other applicants probably had more. I’ve applied to a number of jobs at this institution, where I previously interned. Some are long shots that seem worth trying for, but I worry that I’ll rack up a bad record with them if I apply too often. Sometimes that happens, sometimes not.

    I’m making slower progress than I’d hoped for at connecting with the recruitment office at the local university, and continue to miss chances at applying for positions I might have been considered for, because I haven’t yet gotten guidance on which job types there might match my skills and experience. It’s a highly desired employer, so any positions will be very competitive. But they’re more willing and able to accommodating disabilities (of which I have several) than many institutions, so I would especially like to work there.

  163. MsChanandlerBong*

    If you hire someone from overseas, do you have to follow the laws where your company is located or the laws of the hire’s home country? We advertised an opening for $X per hour. The applicant we ended up hiring is from a developing country, so instead of paying him what we originally offered, my boss offered him $X-4 because “$X is how much an accountant in that country makes.” I think that’s crappy, but it’s not illegal. Now, however, we’re paying the contractor per task completed instead of giving him an hourly rate. If you have to follow U.S. guidelines, we’re running afoul of the law because the job he’s doing is an employee position and he is classified as a contractor (he does the same job I do, and I am classified as an employee). But if we have to follow his home country’s laws, then we’re okay.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Yeah, I think it sucks, but I am not surprised. This person we hired is okay, but we had a much better candidate. She asked for $2/hour more than I get paid, so our bosses went with the other guy instead.

    2. Autumnheart*

      Presumably you would be required to follow both your country’s laws and the laws of the employee’s country. Operating in multiple countries doesn’t mean that only one set of laws applies.

  164. JoiningTheFun*

    First time poster, long time lurker…hello everyone!
    I feel unrecognized in my role at work. I have been applying to jobs and not yet managed to secure a new role. In my current community facing role, I have had to interact and help support/train individuals that get the jobs I had applied for in other organizations. Of course, those individual people do not know I applied, but helping them (which is a core aspect of my role) is like rubbing salt into the wound.
    Not currently looking for advice, but thought this would be a welcoming space to share my frustrations.

    (ohhhh that was fun!)

  165. Anon66*

    I have 4 pre-planned vacations this year: 2 days in the middle/end of February, 3 days at the beginning of March, 6 days mid April, and 2 weeks (10 days) in July. Am I correct in thinking that asking for all of those when starting a new job is a little much (with the understanding that new job offers 4 weeks of vacation)? I can give or take February (though obviously would prefer to go), but the others I would still really like to do, but I still feel like that is too much.

    1. Colette*

      That’s a lot. How flexible are you on dates? What’s the impact of missing these trips?

      It sounds like that may even be more than 4 weeks, which is definitely too much. 2+3 = 1 week, 6 days = 1 week + 1 day, + 2 weeks in July – obviously it depends on whether there are holidays in there, but it’s still too much.

      1. Anon66*

        Thanks – it’s good to have the perspective that it is, in fact, a lot. My concern is seeming out of touch. Two of the days are holidays at my current job.

        Would the 6 days in April and 10 days in the summer be more realistic? One of the April dates covers Good Friday, though I don’t know if that is a holiday in new place. FWIW April is the real deal-breaker for me.

        1. Colette*

          OK. So ask for April when negotiating. Is there any flexibility in July? I.e. does it absolutely have to be those 2 weeks? If not, I’d let that one go and talk about it when they start talking summer vacation.

          If July is also really important, you could ask for both, but that is still 3 weeks of your 4 weeks vacation (and not all in one chunk). Would you be willing to lose the job over it?

          1. Location Off*

            Re: lose the job – Definitely not. July could definitely be flexible. We could not take it at all (small financial loss, really nbd), or try and reschedule to another time.

            2. Colette*

              Then I’d ask for April when negotiating, and July when summer vacation comes up. The first year you may need to fit time off in around other people.

    2. Lucy*

      One problem would be that you would be using PTO before you have earned it – four weeks in four months rather than twelve.

      Also, wouldn’t it be hard to get up to speed if you’re repeatedly stopping and starting? And that’s before you learn the rhythms of the new place – maybe July is their busiest month, or nobody is allowed more than a week at a time without a compelling exception (their own wedding, maybe).

      How set in stone are the other vacations? I would be getting insurance ASAP if you haven’t already, as I think it likely you would have to dump at least two if not three or maybe all.

      Honestly I think you have to decide which is the number one holiday and be ready to lose all the others.

      1. Anon66*

        This is really great perspective – thank you!

        My real deal-breaker is April (of which one of the days is Good Friday, and I know sometimes that’s a holiday and sometimes its not).

        Part of me is wistful and hopes that I can get a start date far enough out to cover the two earlier vacations. But I just got a call for a third interview for Monday, so I’m not sure if 6 weeks is too far in the future for a start date.

        1. Autumnheart*

          You should also consider that other employees on your team may have already requested some of those dates off, and been granted them. You may be required to provide coverage for existing vacations instead of being out of office yourself.

          1. Anon66*

            That’s a good point. It’s never been an issue in my office (same field, slightly different industry) which is much smaller – so I hadn’t really thought of that before.

    3. Anonysand*

      In addition to what others have said above, I would also keep in mind that some places have policies in place that don’t allow you to take any vacation days during a certain time frame after starting. If that were the case you *might* be able to hold firm on one of those (whichever one is the most important to you) and take unpaid time if necessary, but it could be a bumpy request.

    4. NeverNicky*

      I’m in the UK and that would sound perfectly reasonable over here, with the caveat that in smaller teams/organisations, two weeks in July might not be granted as it’s school holidays and there may be restrictions on how many people can be out.

  166. AnotherAlison*

    My manager talked to me about a new role today. He wants me to think about it for a few weeks, but I’m reasonably excited about it. It’s a step upward and it would use my biggest strengths (analytical and managerial). If I don’t do this, I will move on (or back) to something different than what I’m doing now, as my current role was temporary for one year. My current role involved a ton of travel and some business development, so I look forward to leaving that behind.

    My only reservation is that this is a newly created role. There is some precedent. We have managers of this function in other groups, and we have been doing the function in my group, but it has been spread across all 40+ of us instead of tightly managed by dedicated staff. The other groups are different enough that our processes will still need to be customized. This is the 4th time in 14 years with my company that I will take on a newly created role. My temp assignment was a new role, too. In the middle of that, I said never again and that I would just slide into a role that was well defined and multiple people were already doing. I guess I should know the pitfalls of a newly created role well enough by now to put things in place to avoid them.

    1. TheTallestOneEver*

      I’ve been with my employer for 18 years, and six of my eight positions were custom created for me because they found a specific need that my combined skill set and experience could fill. I just networked with a former boss who moved on to a different department within my company, and he’s in the process of creating a vacancy for newly created position #9 for me. Again, there’s a specific need his group has, and I’ve got the ability to fill it. I don’t see the downside of that. True, these situations have involved some ambiguity at the start, but I’ve loved being able to help create new programs from nothing and help define how success would be defined.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        That’s pretty awesome, and it does help me feel like I’m not the only one. I’m a lot more excited about creating something from scratch for THIS role, and defining success criteria, than I was in my previous role.

        The first one, I think I was a little too young and green (thought I new more than I did, then didn’t have anyone to learn from). The second one had some major changes in the first 6 months (the executive I was reporting to hired in someone in between us, and then there was a major merger that impacted our department, and the exec quit, but dumb ol’ me stuck it out for 6 years). The third one (current role) was very undefined and I got a new manager before I even started, which kept it very undefined the entire time. This one seems perfect, which was not the feeling I had last time, so I think I’m okay. Last time, I thought, this is a terrible idea and fit, but it was a good growth opportunity and stretched my skills.

  167. DueDateQuestion*

    Administrative insight/help needed! In my new job, I coordinate bookings for professional development workshops led by my coworkers. One of the tasks is to send out booking agreements once the dates, topics, etc., are finalized.

    Where I’m running into an issue is the due date for when these need to be returned. They’re usually scheduled for at least three or four months away, usually longer. Currently, the procedure is the agreements need to be returned two weeks before the workshop happens, but I think that means it’s likely the client won’t raise any issues until then which could potentially throw a wrench into things on our end. I’d prefer to say they’re due within a month of receipt, even if the workshop isn’t for another six months, and have it returned and done with.

    There doesn’t seem to be any particular reason on my end we can’t do it that way, BUT I haven’t been on the other end of this process so I’m not sure if there’s a factor I’m overlooking. If you were booking a workshop what timeline would you prefer?

  168. Mazzy*

    I am hope job hopping and redoing my resume right now. Question about civic engagement in terms of volunteer work that is not political – weekly work at the food bank and stuff like that. Should I keep it at the bottom of my resume to show personality or take it off because it’s not directly related to the job? I noticed a higher call back rate the last time I had it on my resume, but the two probably aren’t related.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I don’t think it’s terrible to keep it on, especially if you have the space for it. If you’re applying to a place that values service and encourages its employees to do service, that could be a nice bonus. You could also include it as a short line in your cover letter- “Outside of work, I volunteer weekly at the food bank, serving individuals in our community through XYZ.”

  169. New ED*

    I have three staff members who are at a similar level in the organization, I’ll call them Sara, Melissa, and Jane. All three are women so no gender issues at play. Sara makes about $1,000 per year more than Melissa who in turn makes about $2,000 more than Jane. Sara’s salary is higher primarily because she negotiated a higher salary when she came on board, before I became the ED. We are doing performance reviews right now and some minor reshuffling of teams. Melissa and Jane will each have one staff member reporting to them and are both taking on more responsibility. They are not significantly better employees than Sara, they just manage different programs that allow for hiring of Junior staff. All three of their salaries come from different buckets. I want to give raises to Melissa of $6000 and Jane of $7000. Sara would get a standard $1200 increase. That would bring Melissa about $5000 above Sara and Jane about $4000 above Sara. Sara is very sensitive to issues of hierarchy and I am concerned that she is going to be very upset by this. This is not about poor performance on her part but truthfully her programmatic responsibilities are just smaller than the others and they have been underpaid. Refusing to give raises Melissa and Jane who deserve them because I can’t give one to Sara seems utterly ridiculous to me so that’s not on the table. There is also not money in the bucket where Sara’s program is to hire a junior staff member under her or to give her more responsibility, which she definitely wants. We have salary transparency so I can’t hide the changes from her, nor would I try to. Thoughts on dealing with this situation?

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like the right call.

      Tell them all one after the other – and be clear with Sara that you’re increasing Jane and Melissa’s salaries because they have been underpaid and need to be paid fairly for their additional responsibilities.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t explain it to Sara. How is it her business? Why do you feel the need to treat them exactly the same? With different budgets and programs, why compare them?

        There can still be gender issues.

    2. Lucy*

      It’s something you risk when you negotiate your salary up to start a job: that you’re already at a ceiling for what you will be doing there. If she has less responsibility then it’s fair for her to be paid less.

      You might like to consider in advance what she could do to add $4k (or whatever) to her salary, whether that’s taking more responsibility for llama grooming product cross-selling, agreeing to work the anti-social Saturday shift nobody wants, being on call on holidays, or whatever.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      The thing that stinks here is that Sara wants to add more value, but it sounds like she can’t in the current structure. (She can’t expand her staff or have more responsibility.) I think you ultimately lose Sara in this scenario. Her two same-level coworkers really just got promotions and healthy raises and she didn’t. Meanwhile, she had good performance. I think the main thing you need is transparency of how salary is determined. If an outstanding individual contributor is worth X, management is worth Y, and certain programs are worth Z, that should be known by all.

    4. CatCat*

      I think you’re just honest with Sara on the funding limitations for her program and that those limitations mean she will not be able to take on a higher role (with corresponding higher salary). Also offer to support Sara otherwise. Is there money for professional development for her? Can you offer to provide a reference if she decides she needs to look elsewhere to advance professionally?

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      This is not about poor performance on her part but truthfully her programmatic responsibilities are just smaller than the others and they have been underpaid.

      Several years ago my employer did a salary study and discovered that many positions were underpaid. People in my position got a raise, but a position that assisted us did not. A peer said she felt really guilty about us getting a raise and the assistants not getting one, since we already made more than they did. I said, “this only means we’ve been underpaid all this time, and they haven’t.” You might try to frame it that way. “I wish I could give EVERYONE a raise, but Melissa and Jane are already significantly underpaid for what they do. Luckily, you’re already being appropriately compensated for the amount of responsibility you have.”

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      Have you considered giving Sara something non-monetary that shows her work is appreciated? For example, maybe you could give her an extra week of vacation or let her work from home on Fridays. Explain to her that since she’s already appropriately financially compensated for her role so you couldn’t give her the kind of salary boost you gave the others, you still wanted to give her something that showed how valuable she is to the team. I know that if I was already being well-compensated at my job for the level of responsibility I had, I’d appreciate an extra week of vacation or being able to work from home more often (especially now that it’s winter and the weather sucks so hard).

  170. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Reported someone to HR for the first time in my life. We have a policy about no children unless they come as a part of a sanctioned work event, and someone brought her sick kid and kept leaving him alone at her cube while she was in meetings. I don’t really care that she brought her kid, but I cared that he was sick, because a lot of people in our work space are currently maxed out on sick time due to everything going around right now, and you never know if someone is going through chemo or is pregnant or is compromised for whatever reason. I still feel like such a jerk though! Did I do the right thing?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Is she maxed out on her sick time too?

      Do you know what her options were for having kid taken care of or not endangering her job by staying home with him if she had nobody available?

      Is this representative of other stuff she flouts? Or is this a one-off?

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        What I do know is that she has telecommuting privileges and I don’t due to differences in our position descriptions and the child is not so young that he would need constant supervision. I also will admit to feeling kind of bitter towards her because of rude things she has said to me in the past.

      2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Also she would not have endangered her job if she stayed home because taking time off to care for a child is protected in my state.

        1. animaniactoo*

          You’re fine. She should have telecommuted or taken the day.

          Do be aware that taking the day being protected by the state doesn’t necessarily mean that she’s really okay. Companies find ways around that kind of stuff all the time.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          With the context, I think you were totally within your rights.

          If the situation had been different — she weren’t protected or couldn’t have worked from home — then I’d question the decision a bit more, but as it stands, you did the right thing.

    2. Temperance*

      That’s a ridiculous thing for her to have done. She could have made so many other people sick.

    3. TGIF*

      I’d only hesitate because are you sure she didn’t get special permission to do this as a one-time thing? Kids aren’t allowed in most offices but my mom (a single mom) got special permission to bring me the rare times I was sick. I would be settled under her desk with a book to read or paper to color and people wouldn’t know I was there because I was so quiet and well-behaved. Not sure if she left me for meetings or anything like that but her boss was okay with my rare visits.

      But I guess that HR would tell you if she did have permission and it was nothing for you to concern yourself with.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Nope, HR actually thanked me for notifying them because apparently it’s been a huge issue with multiple people not respecting the policy and they’re glad that it was finally brought to their attention. Managers don’t have the authority to overrule company-wide policies.

  171. LPBB*

    How do people stay positive during a job search?

    I am really struggling right now with feelings of futility. It feels like there are fewer and fewer jobs that I’m actually qualified for, especially ones that pay the rate I need thanks to my mortgage and student loans. Plus the total lack of response from employers after you email your application to them. How hard is it to just send a form email response that says “Thanks for your interest”? Or the lack of response after interviewing — I know that it sucks to tell someone they didn’t get the job, but don’t I deserve at least that much after dressing up, coming in, sitting around cooling my heels for 15+ minutes because one of the panelists was late and having a super rushed interview because now we’re bumping up against the next person’s slot?

    I think part of what is making this worse is that right at the beginning of my job search I pulled out of the interview process for one position that I wasn’t that excited about and which would have added an additional 20 minutes to my already hour long commute. I got 2 invitations to interview from the first 5 applications I sent out, so I was assuming that I would have more options and wouldn’t have to settle. That is turning out to be a huge miscalculation on my part, since I’ve only received one other interview request since.

    Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions for remaining positive while going through this totally soul crushing experience?

    1. Plain Jane*

      What helped me when I was in this situation is being kind to myself. I know that probably sounds corny, but it was much better than listening to the voices in my head telling me I was a loser and a failure. I don’t know what that means for you, but for me it was leaning on my friends for support, making myself buy at least one treat at the grocery store even though I was saving money, giving myself permission to watch a show or read a book or neglect housework when I was feeling really down.

    2. Doug Judy*

      It’s hard. I actually posted something very similar a few weeks ago. I am in the midst of a long job search and it’s been very trying. I don’t live in a large metro area and moving isn’t an option, (I love it here, and the whole spouse and kids stuff) so jobs that I am qualified for and pay what I need (crushing student debt) are few and far between. I apply for anything that I am remotely qualified for. I probably get called for a phone screen 1/10 applications. In the last 6 months I have gotten to the final round for 5/6 different jobs and gotten no offers. I have self selected out a few that were obvious bad fits. Currently I have two jobs I am in the final round for. One is one I interviewed for at the end of December. They have been in touch but it sounds like there is some internal restructuring and there might be two positions open, but the are still working out details. The other one I interviewed for this week, but they aren’t interviewing the other person until next week. While it sounds like one of those should pan out soon, given my recent track record, I am preparing that I am going to once again be told “We loved you, but we don’t think you’d be happy in this role long term/we went with someone with slightly more experience” So I applied for three more jobs today.

      I wish I had some words of wisdom but all those rejections sting. Especially when it seems like others find jobs fairly easily. However don’t beat yourself up for pulling out of the running for something you weren’t excited about. It’s always best to listen to your gut. After some rough rejections, some things that helped me at least feel better were to spend time with my friends/family and do something fun. Another suggestion given by one of the commentators on my post was to do something non-work related that I excel at. For me it’s baking. I am actually a very skilled baker, so I made some absolutely stunning cupcakes and took an awesome photo to post on Facebook. Yes, it was an attention grab, but it really made me feel good to do something I was good at and get positive feedback from others.

      Hang in there. Hopefully soon both of us will have new positions!

      1. Its all good*

        Best of luck to both of you! I have been in your situations. I read a lot to escape reality and also volunteered.

  172. ProudWife*

    Husband has today accepted a new job and resigned from a job he’s hated for ages!

    Oddly, he’s working in the building right next to my OldJob, and I think the location will do wonders for his wellbeing – he currently has a 40-60 minute drive each way, which will become around an hour on the train where he can doze/read/play games on his phone and generally decompress. It’s also central so he can go for a walk at lunchtime rather than getting stuck at his desk – it’s even very near a museum. Hopefully the work itself and co-workers and management will also be what he’s looking for.

    Pay and benefits are slightly better but more predictable (no more overtime or on call) and with better-defined raises on the horizon which don’t depend on other people’s work.

    I can’t wait, and I’m so proud! (hence this throwaway name for today)

  173. Plain Jane*

    There’s been discussions here about bad job advice people got from parents – anyone have a story about the time they got GOOD job advice from their parents and it panned out?

    Years ago I was in a job that was a bad fit and unfortunately I was terminated. I thought you couldn’t get unemployment if you were fired but my dad urged me to apply and the unemployment department determined that I was eligible because my company had a formal PIP process in place that they didn’t follow with me.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      When getting ready for my business trip, my mother encouraged me to push for business-class airline tickets — something I was very hesitant about asking for, since those are bloody expensive. It turned out that it was technically policy for anyone flying overseas or 4+ hours, although my company was trying to avoid it more and wasn’t proactively offering business class at the time. Since I was taking an 18-hour flight to the Phillippines, I did qualify and they approved the upgrade for me without any fuss, and BOY did it make a difference!

    2. Ali G*

      When I started traveling for work, I had an incident where my car battery died while parked in the economy lot (in the middle of a field). It was late at night and I was alone. I had to wait in the dark and cold to get back on the shuttle to go into the airport and get help. My dad was ENRAGED that I parked in Economy. He made me sit down and do the math so I would understand that the $15-30 more per trip for parking in the lot connected to the airport, on a tab already around $2500 wasn’t enough to risk my safety over. And if my employer wanted to nit pick, I should tell them that. No one ever questioned it and I to this day, always park in a lot connected to the airport/train station when I travel.

  174. JustAskingForAFriend*

    If your company caught wind that you’re looking for a new job and basically came to you to get reassurance that you’re not leaving … Is that normal? A bullying tactic? How do you respond?

    1. irene adler*

      I would say something very generic. Don’t give them reason to rush you out of the door if your job search is taking a long time.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Depends who’s asking, why they’re asking, and how you think they’d respond. Alison says a lot that if telling your employer about your job search will jeopardize your current job, they’ve lost the right to expect transparency.

      If they’re asking what they can do to retain you, won’t penalize you for being honest, and you think your current position is salvageable with a few realistic changes, then you can be straightforward. Otherwise say something like “That’s weird, where did you hear that?”

    3. fposte*

      I don’t see how it would be bullying–it’s a reasonable thing for them to want to know. That doesn’t mean you have to tell them if you think it would be a problem. You can go with a generic “I’ve got no other plans! I’ll let you know if that changes” or a deliberately silly “Yeah, I just got poached to run GM for a million dollars a year.” You could even just lie–not my favorite thing because it’s not a habit you want to develop in interacting with the world, but if you work for horrible people I don’t think you owe them the truth.

      Alternatively , there are situations where you absolutely could say the truth. “You’ve known I haven’t been happy here, and this seemed like the best solution on all sides. I didn’t want to tell you before things were firm, but do you want to discuss the transition?”

  175. Aurélia*

    I did not do enough culture homework/recon before starting a new job in April. A lot of the people I work with are friendly and hard-working, but unfortunately I am probably in the loudest, most unprofessional area in the office. On the other side
    of the divider are two people who sing, watch “Family Feud” on their computers, and have the radio on at different (occasionally the same) times. Earplugs and headphones will not cover everything up. I have not been able to bring myself to get noise-cancelling headphones yet, and I want to be a little approachable in my cube.
    I took Alison’s advise, saying something conversational like, “Hey Todd, I’m sure you don’t realize this, but you’re actually singing out loud and it’s very distracting. I’d really appreciate it if you stopped.” Seemed like a successful interaction, until Nancy (the Steve Harvey enthusiast) came back to her desk. Todd states, “Nancy, why didn’t you tell me my singing was bothering people?” She hollers back, “Toddy-poo, you are a beautiful singer! If they don’t like it, that’s their problem!”
    And unfortunately she seems to be right. It doesn’t seem to bother anyone else except the poor woman who sits in front of me. And so a fraught and distracting work environment became more-so.
    Like I said, it’s a culture thing. I guess? This woman is the epitome of a terrible
    Federal employee. She walks around barefoot, yells at her manager for interrupting
    her program, and de-bones ribs from the cafeteria before weighing her food. I was
    furloughed for four weeks and within about 90 seconds of being back in the office on Wednesday, the tension in my shoulders was noticeable when her and Todd were catching up, loudly. I’m taking deep breathes and trying to finish this post before taking a walk around the block after listening to them trade jokes and loudly discuss weekend plans and how people are stupid for living so far away from the office. My supervisor and manager have seemed to take my concerns seriously, but here I sit. Listening to Aretha Franklin, who if I wanted to listen to I could pull up on Amazon music.
    Hopefully another office on the other side of the floor is moving downstairs and I
    could sit over there, but now I have anxiety about the unknown people I could be sitting next to in a few weeks (months? years?) and maybe it won’t be any better. I am looking for a new job, but this shutdown crap has thrown a wrench in things.
    After today I’ve decided I’m going to use the other break-room on my floor after my quickly putting cream cheese on a bagel for lunch at the same time Nancy was in there with two of her girlfriends was met with sighs, whispers, and audible comments like, “uppity” “horrible” “don’t fit in”. I try to smile and say hello in passing to take the high road or something, but it’s taking more and more energy I don’t have to spare.
    What has worked for people dealing with singing/unprofessional co-workers where the office culture seems to be ok with it and management doesn’t care to intervene? Meanwhile my skin crawls and the energy here is terrible. I really hope that I can move my desk in the next week or two, but I’ll still see these people in the lobby, bathroom…
    TGIF.

    1. JustAskingForAFriend*

      Ugh, that sounds horrible!

      It seems like they don’t know the adage, “Don’t talk about someone, talk to them.” Since quickly finding a new job might be a little hard right now, I’d invest in some noise canceling headphones. Good luck … and you are NOT uppity, horrible, and of course you fit in. It’s when the other puzzle pieces chance their shape that it can be a little tricky!

    2. Colette*

      I’m a little lost about who is who here. Can you just keep reminding Todd and Nancy that they’re too loud? Don’t over-explain, just “Hey, would you mind keeping it down? Thanks.”

      I’m not you, but the snide remarks in the break room would not lead me to use a different space (or to hurry – watch me become selectively unable to hear and very meticulous about how I get this bagel ready).

      They won’t like you, but they already don’t and you don’t like them either. Be polite, but stand your ground and don’t cave. I hear that kind of thing can get results.

  176. NewOptions*

    I recently left a job I was at for a number of years. I had held multiple roles throughout multiple company buyouts/restructurings. The last role was good until the department head (who I mainly avoided up til then because I had no reason to interact with them, and they had a reputation for being a dictator with a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude) decided to add on extra duties and change the location of my desk to somewhere I would get interrupted all day. This would mean my performance would suffer as I was already incredibly busy and the job entailed strict attention to detail. I ended up quitting over this, after myself and multiple people tried explaining why this wasn’t productive and wouldn’t work. They were adamant that this change NEEDED to happen and there was NO WAY to avoid it. Ironically my replacement worked that way for all of two weeks before they went back to my old desk and duties……because surprise, it didn’t work out!! When I am interviewing for new jobs, what is the best way to describe why I left my old position? “Departmental structure changes that I didn’t agree with” doesn’t sound good. But I’m not sure what to say.

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      You can say something like “My job duties changed and the position wasn’t a good fit for me anymore.” You don’t have to say anything about the structural/spatial changes (though aggravatingly dumb!) when talking about why you left your job, and you can ask about the prospective work setup in the context of ‘I’ve learned I’m much more productive in x setup than y.’ If they make the connection I don’t think they’d blame you since basically everyone hates open offices

      1. NewOptions*

        It was already an open office plan, but I had my own cubicle. They wanted me to go and sit up at the front desk beside the receptionist…..doing accounting. With approx 2 feet of desk space our chairs touching….

        1. animaniactoo*

          It’s fine to say that there were some changes being made that impacted your ability to do your job efficiently and that while you did try to discuss it with them, ultimately it didn’t work out.

          The key here is that you’re giving them the information that you didn’t just up and quit – you sought a resolution and didn’t leave until it was clear there wasn’t going to be one.

          If they pursue it and ask what kind of change happened, it’s also fine to just matter-of-factly state that your role involved doing detail-intensive accounting work and they were moving you to share the front desk with the receptionist. Because it’s such a bananas crazy move that people will just “get it”.

  177. Elizabeth West*

    Not me, but when I get it from voices, I can’t really focus on what they’re saying, just the sound of it. Alison’s content is far too interesting for me to relax to it. :)

    Although, I found when bingeing the show on Netflix that watching Marie Kondo DOES give me ASMR. I had to rewind a couple of times because I was zoning out!

  178. Lily*

    How do you feel about getting a job through a family connection?

    I know it’s a good thing, I just feel unsettled right now. There’s a good chance I’m going to get a job offer because my parents friend recommended me to a higher up at the small company. They saw my resume (which was well suited for the position) and I’ve spoken to the CEO a few times.

    I know I’m incredibly lucky and if this works out its a great thing. The last two jobs I got 1) knew the recruiter through an on campus club and 2) an alum of my program worked there. I just feel like in general I (a non white woman) don’t want things to run through the “old boys network” and here I am basically doing something that stems from that.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I don’t think so? It sounds like things are running through networking, which is an extremely common way to find work. In some fields, the only way.

    2. Autumnheart*

      I’d consider this a legitimate case of networking + merit. It would be questionable if you somehow weren’t cut out for the job, but got it anyway because of your family friendship. But you’re not; you’re qualified and, in addition to your professional credentials, it transpired that you had a personal connection that could provide a character reference.

      You’re fine. Good for you for getting noticed.

      1. Lily*

        Character reference – that’s a good way to think of it. Especially since this isn’t a close family friend so he’s not 100% doing this as a favor to my parents, I know he thinks highly of me in general as well.

  179. AnonForThisPost*

    Who here works in the archives/museum field? Is it a career worth pursuing?
    The only experience I have in either field is my volunteer work where I’m in my local historical society’s archives (I know how to use PastPerfect & how to handle historic documents) & at the same organization I have a paid part-time position at the museum (But I’m not involved in doing research for exhibits, but I’m sure if I wanted to they would let me). How do I get more experience to see if I would even like archiving or museum work as a career? I know that I would need to get a Masters degree if I wanted to be an archivist. I do have a college degree, but not in History.

    I live in the DMV area, I would imagine that means there are more job openings in here than in other parts of the country.

    1. Autumnheart*

      From what I’ve read, positions in that career path are few and far between, and in your area in particular, contingent on political funding appropriations. In light of the current political atmosphere, I would probably hesitate to go all-in on such a career unless you don’t need to depend on the salary to live.

      1. AnonForThisPost*

        Thank you for responding! I didn’t even think about the political atmosphere, especially since museums depend a lot on donations to function (I know that for the historical society I volunteer at, donations went down since the new tax law went into effect the lowered how much money you can write off on your taxes for donations).

        I guess I go back and forth on whether or not I want to keep this as a fun hobby or if I want to pursue it as a career.

  180. Telecommute Wannabe Seeking Advice*

    Hi Everyone, love AAM and this amazing group. This is my first time posting to the weekend thread. Hope someone out there can give me some guidance. I am a senior executive assistant with 25 years experience. I love my chosen career but the commute is killing me. I am looking to move into a fully or partially remote position in the Boston area. I have telecommuting experience from OldJob and loved it. I was very motivated, got my work done, my bosses praised my productivity while WFH. I am interested in looking for a job that allows telcommuting within a reasonable timeframe of starting (immediately, 3 months, 6 months post training, whatever.)
    Here are my questions:
    1. Aside from noting which positions I had that allowed partial telecommute, do I have to adjust my resume in any other way?
    2. Do I have to add wording to my cover letter like “I have a private home office with full IT set up” or is that implied?
    3. Where do I find these jobs? I know of flexjobs.com. Any other sites out there you recommend?
    I welcome any/all feedback. Thank you!

  181. Outside Earthling*

    Does anyone have any advice to help me deal with a direct report who is being mean about me behind my back? I caught her making a snide comment about me. Did not hear what she said but the tone was unmistakable. I decided to tackle it in the moment by calmly saying that if she was feeling overworked she shouldn’t hesitate to tell me. I got a message later apologizing. I am conscious I’ve been giving her more tasks than usual but she’s still still plenty chatty with our coworkers and I don’t sense she’s under a lot of work stress. I actually felt sick. I thought we had a good relationship and I have given her a lot of emotional help with issues outside work. This is what she tends to want to talk about at our catch ups. I am only working with her another 6 weeks or so until she moves on. I feel bruised and sad. Anyone else ever deal with something like this? How best to deal with her in the remaining time? I cancelled our catch up today as I just couldn’t face it but realise I can’t do that again. I got the feeling she was very comfortable speaking to this coworker about me and that it was part of a series of quick remarks. They had a kind of short hand communication thing going on if that makes any sense. Horrible.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s upsetting. I would be upset. I think you handled the situation really well.

      But, on the other hand, I tend to assume that even my nicest, best-relationship-with-me staff have occasionally said derogatory things about me to their loved ones. While it sounds like this might have been meaner than just the kind of venting I’m imagining, it doesn’t automatically mean your relationship is bad. It sounds like what’s hit you is that you feel like you’ve been really generous to her and been guiding her through life, so this particularly sucks.

      But I also don’t love the fact that her meetings with her boss have been regularly focused on non-work stuff. I think a little bit of bleedthrough is common, but a 1-1 with a manager isn’t therapy, and it’s not for her to talk about whatever she wants to in life. Can you think a little about why that’s happened and what it might mean to you that it did? I know early in my managing career I was pretty easy to suck into private life stuff because it made me feel like I was being really useful in a way that was important to my staffer, but as I’ve gained in experience I’ve realized that that wasn’t really an appropriate use of my time or a good way to relate to my staff, and I needed to focus on getting my satisfaction through managing their work. Any chance that’s what’s going on with you here?

      Certainly I would make sure future catch-ups were completely work focused, and I’d also try, unless I thought there was some bigger morale issue between her and other co-workers, to let this go. Assume she likes you just fine as a boss but still just as a boss, which is a person that people tend to kvetch about.

      1. Outside Earthling*

        This is so helpful! Thanks so much. I was so delighted to see it was you commenting as I hardly ever say much in the AAM comments but I always read your comments and think they are so grounded in solid wisdom. So thank you. Yes, you have hit the nail on the head I think. When I took over management of her, her previous manager explained that the support she needs is around having access to a listening ear and that helps her manage her anxiety. I never questioned this and provided that role for her but to be honest I find it completely draining listening to her and trying to work out the best way to react etc. Also, I know this sounds bad but I am not actually interested in her life, only getting the job done! I am v task focused and have been trying to do that thing of recognizing that other people need a more relationship based approach. I obviously haven’t been getting this right though. We interact so much about work throughout the day that there is actually not much left to talk about at our catch. I need to think about this some more. Thanks again. Your comment was reassuring and also helpful to me. You are right that people do complain about their bosses. I am taking it all too much to heart I think.

        1. fposte*

          Now I’m imagining a long line of your predecessors, none of whom wanted to know that much about this woman’s life, all doing this because somebody way back was into enmeshment and told the next person to do it. I give you full permission to break the cycle and stop listening to her stream of consciousness!

          If she’s leaving in a few weeks, catchups can be about the transition now anyway, and that might actually be useful. Ask her to create an agenda for them in advance, too–it can just be an informal list of things she needs to brief you on.

          1. Outside Earthling*

            Ha! I am terrible with enmeshment. It is a family theme too. These are great ideas. Thank you. We do need to do some transition planning so this is perfect. I think I will also start having our 1-1s more in our communal office space too – just in the meeting spaces designed for this kind of work chat, rather than booking a private meeting roo. I thought I had one problem but I now think I actually have a different problem – one I have some chance of tackling constructively. Thank you! Love this site.

            1. valentine*

              It sounds like you’re her ad hoc therapist. Restrict the catchups to necessary work stuff and space them further apart. Ride out her tenure. Look at why you’re taking her words so intensely personally and learn to disconnect. It’s standard to complain about TPTB.

    2. Argh!*

      Eh, live & learn.

      If you haven’t already, try reading something like “Crucial Conversations” about creating an environment where people feel safe to confront you, yet respect you.

      I’ve had the opposite — I am open to being challenged, but it can go overboard and let reports think they’re the boss of me. There has to be a balance.

      In the end, most work garbage is about the other person, not about you. People are people. If she were a long-term employee it would be worrisome, but your best bet is to invest more time & trust with the people she was talking to, not her.

      1. Outside Earthling*

        Thanks! I’ll take a look at that book. Yes, striking a balance is hard. I sometimes feel I lack a finely tuned assertiveness barometer so it’s easy to swing too far one way and then the other. You make a good point about investing in the relationships that matter over the long term.

      2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        +1 on the crucial conversations; I was able to take the training and I wish I could repeat it. (A co-worker took it, and we want to practice the material at lunch if we can). Great stuff.

  182. I Need a Script*

    I work for a school district in a purchasing office. We recently hired “Mandy” as an admin assistant who is, as she calls herself, “militantly child free.” Any time one of us mentions our children, Mandy replies, “Don’t wanna hear about your crotchfruit, thanks!” Some of her other famous lines are “children should be on leashes and dogs should roam free!” And, my personal favorite, “If you people would care about the current state of our country as much as you care about your crotchdroppings, we wouldn’t have a crazy president.” (WHAT?)

    Now, we are not people to fawn over our kids, but a typical kid-centered conversation in the office may be about someone’s baseball league, or a function one of our kids attended, or even just something going on at one of the schools in our district. That’s not to say we talk about other things, but when you work in a school district, the topic of KIDS is bound to come up.

    Our supervisor is aware of the problem but she works in a different building, and when she’s around, Mandy keeps her opinions to herself. Everyone in the office is tired of Mandy and her mouth. Any suggestions on what we can say to her?

    1. LCL*

      When someone says something crude, interrupt them right there. ‘Mandy, you are entitled to your opinion. Don’t relate it in such a crude way around me.’

      1. valentine*

        Someone needs to ban the word crotch. If she’s speaking to people who aren’t white, this is racist.

    2. Abigail*

      WTF. I’d have to be direct here.

      “Mandy, without children the human race couldn’t continue to exist.”

      “Mandy that language isn’t inappropriate.” “Mandy do not talk about my family members that way.” “Mandy, do not suggest that anyone should put human beings in leashes.”

      1. LQ*

        I think that sticking with the inappropriate is good.
        Once you start to argue with her points (like the human race would cease to exist, she could easily say “that’s a good thing” now you’re at a …. point with her) you’re on her turf and now you’re in a conversation about this. Just cut her off entirely with “That language is unacceptable.” “That is not an appropriate thing to say in a professional environment.”

    4. fposte*

      Oh, FFS. I am happily childless and I would gladly throw myself on the Mandy grenade for you, were I there.

      Obviously you don’t engage with the argument, but I think you can engage with the behavior, and I’d go stronger than I usually would with somebody being obnoxious because this seems really vicious. “Mandy, this is a respectful office. That kind of bullying and meanness isn’t acceptable.” Callback is “No bullying, Mandy.”

      I also am not impressed with the supervisor here. Does she think you all have invented what Mandy says? Because she doesn’t need to hear Mandy’s words directly to know that they are really problematic and Mandy needs to get pulled up short and sharp. Keep in mind also that there are jurisdictions, in the US, where family status is a protected category and where her actions could actually be construed as creating a hostile work environment. If you’re in such a jurisdiction, that might be worth pointing out to the supervisor.

    5. 653-CXK*

      This is one instance where a group of you should talk about Mandy to not just the boss, but HR as well. “We’re having a problem with Mandy…any time we mention children, she refers to them in explicit, awful terms, such as (mention them here if you’ve documented them)…we feel this is inappropriate since we work in a school district and our focus is children. What is the best path to take in this instance?”

      If your boss is on board, she will at minimum put Mandy on a PIP, highlighting that describing children in such nasty terms, especially in a school district, is inappropriate, and if she doesn’t tone down the militancy, she will face disciplinary action. In the meantime, if Mandy goes into one of her militant rants again, being as professionally chilly as possible about it might chill those rants. “Mandy, we don’t talk about children that way, and we expect you to do the same.” If she does it again: “I thought I told you the last time that your language regarding children is inappropriate and uncalled for. Is there a reason why you have to launch into those rants?” Also, I would document those rants as backup, e.g. “1/25/19: When we were talking about my son Mike’s baseball game, Mandy stated the following…”

      Mandy needs two new jobs – one not dealing with children and one keeping her militant opinions to herself.

    6. Havarti*

      Wow, I haven’t heard such strong language since my LiveJournal days! Agree with fposte on addressing the behavior and not trying to counter-argue.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Yeah, it’s alive and well in some circles.

        They want people to counter argue so they can pontificate on their selected platform. It’s not worth the effort to engage in counter points.

    7. CatCat*

      “You’re being rude. Stop using slurs to refer to kids.”

      “Your mean comments would be out of line in any workplace, but are especially awful when you work in a school district.”

      If she will not relent, you persist in calling her out for being rude and calling kids terrible names! You can also start freezing her out of conversations where that makes sense (e.g., talking about the kids). Literally turn your back on her, walk away from her, or tell her point blank, “You are not welcome to join our conversation.”

      She sounds awful to be around.

      Also, your boss sucks.

    8. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I’d go direct here. “Mandy, knock it off. Yes we get it. You don’t like kids. The world doesn’t revolve around your likes or dislikes, nor do the conversations in this office. You are free to excuse yourself from any conversation you don’t want to be a part of.” Then I’d just go on with the little league, school play, or whatever else you were talking about”

      Mandy want’s to get a rise. Mandy wants to make you all bow to her preferences. Mandy’s a pain in the ass that needs to grow up. Don’t engage in any other discussions on the topic with Mandy. Just tune her out when she starts or repeat the phrase (or something like it).

    9. KR*

      I would a)make a note to yourself that Mandy really does not want to hear about kids and never discussed your own with her, b) if you are discussing a event in your school district and she drops that, respond with “Mandy, we are employed to support the students in our school district. Do not speak about them using those terms. “, C) when she says stuff like this I would stop, give her a LOOK for a second, then continue your conversation like she didn’t say anything. This will hopefully convey that whatever she has to say about kids isn’t going to gain much traction with you. You could also try, “you’ve mentioned before that you don’t like kids. You don’t need to write remind me about it every time they come up.” And “well if you don’t like children you have chosen the wrong field of work.” But I love everyone else’s ideas too

    10. Job Hopper*

      Sounds like harassment to me. Hostile work environment.
      Please remind “Mandy” that all dogs, cats, ponies and (her favorite animal) were also crotchdroppings.
      A log of items spoken or emailed will create some data to share when Ms. Supervisor comes to your building. Once or twice is an oops. Beyond that it is hard to argue “I didn’t really mean to say that”.
      A log of offenses and a group request for assistance will carry a lot of weight here. Because if it is just Sarah or Jim, that is a personality conflict. But 8 personnel would denote a bad behavior pattern.

    11. Argh!*

      “Mandy, keep your opinions to yourself please.”

      “Mandy, keep your opinions to yourself!!!!”

      “Mandy, we already told you, we don’t want to hear it!!!!!”

      “Mandy, STFU or we complain to your boss!”

    12. The New Wanderer*

      Your supervisor needs to become far more aware of this issue. Document each instance and send her a summary every day or week (whatever the frequency is that makes sense). Make it the supervisor’s problem as much as you can. Also shut it down in the moment with a flat or bored look and “You’re being rude and inappropriate” each and every time. This person doesn’t belong in a school district job and she should be encouraged to find a better fit ASAP.

    14. Troutwaxer*

      Someone needs a huh-ugh!

      Joking aside, Mandy has some issues, and clearly needs therapy. If you keep her, the PIP should involve six months with a therapist.

  183. Decima Dewey*

    Hello all. My library system has a mandatory All Staff Day each year. This year it was announced for Wednesday, April 17th. So people planned programs, outreach, etc. with that date in mind. Yesterday, an announcement that, oops, All Staff Day will be Friday, April 26th. No apology, no explanation. Which means people have to unplan programs, outreach, etc. Friday is also the day people working on a Saturday will have as a day off. And, to make things even better, the 26th is the next to last day of Passover, so TPTB have to get the caterer to provide Kosher for Passover lunches. But Great Great Grandboss says we’ll find a way to make it.

  184. Creme de Vent*

    TL, DR: Looking for words of wisdom for managing that employee that doesn’t do his job

    Fergus is the type of employee who is only a high performer when the request is for one our company’s 20 VIPs. Requests from the remaining 4,000 internal customers and colleagues are ignored. The word that’s commonly used to describe him is “unresponsive”. In his decade here, his grand boss Wakeen has always protected him. Typically, nothing gets done by Fergus until it’s escalated to Wakeen.

    None of this is rumor. I’ve made requests for information from systems Fergus manages, and months go by without him producing the data. Members of my team have tried to work on projects with him with little to no success. Occasionally, a colleague will send me a “can you believe this garbage?” email with a communication thread where Fergus commits to do something, then doesn’t. We’ve even had a vendor complain that they were trying to work with Fergus to fix a problem and he wouldn’t respond to messages. Meanwhile, Wakeen has made sure that the performance reviews for Fergus reflect a top tier employee. Even when there’s been a layer of management in between Fergus and Wakeen where the actual manager knew about Fergus’s performance problems, Wakeen has always blocked efforts for performance improvement, and has even increased his end of year performance scores.

    Wakeen and I have the same Boss, who is starting to understand that Fergus doesn’t really do anything. So what will fix that? A re-org! This week it was announced that Fergus now reports directly to me. Boss says I’m free to manage Fergus’s performance as I see fit and if necessary, take him through the PIP process and let him go. He’s even assured me that Wakeen won’t be allowed to interfere in my management of Fergus. I’m annoyed that both Boss and Grand Boss already know he’s a problem and now I get the pleasure of firing him, doing his work myself, or ignoring his poor performance if he continues along the path he’s been on since he started. And I don’t expect improvements. Within two hours of the announcement of our re-org, I already had people in my office complaining about existing problems with Fergus.

    Any words of wisdom?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Boss says I’m free to manage Fergus’s performance as I see fit and if necessary, take him through the PIP process and let him go. He’s even assured me that Wakeen won’t be allowed to interfere in my management of Fergus.

      This is the only part I’d be worried about. How trustworthy is your boss? Is she going to actually not throw you under the bus when you fire Fegus? Is this in writing?

    2. Autumnheart*

      Meet with him. Tell him that, starting now, you expect him to respond appropriately and in a timely manner to all requests. Let it be known that others should loop you in if they see a lack of response from Fergus. Document everything down to the iota. 3 strikes and he’s out.

      1. Snark*

        And define those terms – timely being within one working day, with others encouraged to loop you in immediately if there’s no response within that time, and “strike” being one individual instance of unresponsiveness to one request.

        I might give him a 30-day PIP just to cross the T’s and dot the I’s, with it being understood that if he accumulates 3 strikes within that period he’s out at the end of it, and that he should not expect a PIP or warning if it happens after the PIP concludes.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, that’s a good point–that concluding the PIP doesn’t reset the status to the start, and that he can be fired (company policy permitting, of course) for failing to meet standards without a PIP once the PIP has concluded.

          1. Snark*

            I just get the feeling this guy is the type to loophole-lawyer Creme de Vent right into the ground – nuh uh, I finished my PIP! It could even be something like a 1-year probation period, if it needs to be codified.

        2. Snark*

          Oh, and a timeframe for resolution of the request – say, one working week, if that’s realistic – or a documented reason why the request will take longer than that timeframe to resolve (e.g. received email from Wakeena Janeson on January 25th stating that llamas will only be groomed on February 8th).

    3. fposte*

      I’d assume that you will be putting him on a PIP and then firing him when he fails it. Make sure you know your employer’s protocols for PIPs, and get your documentation practices ready. Honestly, I would give him an informal warning after four weeks, assuming enough documentable nonresponsiveness to justify it, and let him know that a PIP will be coming if things don’t change. Then I’d start the PIP at eight weeks (all this is assuming it fits within HR’s protocols). If you’re not already doing regular check-ins with your staff, now’s the time to make that a policy for everybody, because you’re going to want to do them with Fergus.

      Godspeed and good luck. Your colleagues salute you.

      1. fposte*

        Actually, I kind of like Autumnheart’s three strikes and out, or at least three strikes and PIP. I’m used to really slow schedules on this sort of thing but if you can go faster, it’s likely worth it.

      2. Snark*

        Honestly, I think he’s gotten all the informal warnings he needs. He knows very well this is an issue. I think he could be put on a PIP immediately, or within two weeks.

        1. fposte*

          I think it depends on company policy about documentation–if the documentation needs to come from Creme as his manager, she’ll need enough time to gather it. But as I said I’m also overinfluenced by academic timetables, and I’d be perfectly happy if she could outright just fire his ass on the first day.

          1. Snark*

            Yeah, totally – if it’s practicable just to blow him out the airlock, Creme, I’m personally down for whatever with this guy. The PIP just makes it harder for his patron to try to save his ass.

    4. animaniactoo*

      I would give him clear warning at the beginning – you’re aware of his performance issues. You’ve had your own experience with them.

      Going forward, he is required to reply to EVERYONE in a timely manner, and fulfill requests in a timely manner. Walk him through what you consider a timely manner to be. Discuss with him his workload and projected ability to get that stuff done. Discuss with him when you want to be flagged/notified about something that’s going to be an issue and will take longer, etc. Discuss how he’s going to clear up the backlog and how long you expect it to take.

      Let him know that if you are getting complaints within the next few weeks about his CURRENT work (not what preceded your management), AND after review with you, your opinion is that the work could have been done and should have, you will be placing him on a PIP.

      Basically – give him a head’s up that you’re aware of all of it, he’s got a small window of a clean slate to work with, and it’s up to him to make it work. If not, you’ll react swiftly based on his prior habits.

      Follow through. If he’s not on a PIP at the end of 3 weeks, compliment him on pulling it together and continue to work with him, and talk about his ability to keep up the pace (basically informing him that surviving the 3 weeks doesn’t mean it’s okay to slack off now – but not quite in those words).

      Also, I would say that at least initially, weekly 1-on-1s are going to be crucial to setting expectations with him.

      As far as everyone complaining to you: I’m aware of the issues with Fergus. I’m his manager and will be working with him on improvement. Please leave me a list of your outstanding requests, and we will try to get them moved through as quickly as possible. Do NOT commiserate. Do NOT sympathize. Slightly mollify and then onto business, do not let them run your direct report down to you. Just address the outstanding work and getting into the loop so that you’re aware of the specifics of what needs to be caught up on.

      1. Creme de Vent*

        Thanks everyone! I spent most of my day trying to get this posted and was afraid I was too late for responses.

        My employer’s PIP process is well defined and HR won’t allow it to be used as a quick path for separation. Before HR will even discuss PIP, I have to demonstrate that Fergus has explicitly been told his duties, and that there’s been no improvement after I communicated and coached if work isn’t completed and expectations aren’t met.

        Based on your comments, my initial plan was spot on:
        *Re-write his job duties (Fergus gets some additional work because of the re-org) and discuss them, along with my expectations of timelines for when work should get completed
        *Discuss the existing complaints so he can provide his plan to resolve the outstanding issues
        *Set up a short weekly status meeting with him to get insight into his workload and hopefully an understanding of why his performance is problematic

        I’ve used our PIP process before. Happily, everyone got back on track and no one was fired. In those cases, staff were trying to do a good job and were struggling. As a manager, I’m conflicted between wanting to be fair and optimistic with Fergus (“Doesn’t everyone deserve a clean slate?”) and being pessimistic (“He’s been more than happy to collect a check for not doing anything so far. Why should he change?”).

        1. fposte*

          Sounds like the ducks are beginning to be arrayed. But no, everybody does *not* deserve a clean slate. Behavior counts, and it should.

        2. Troutwaxer*

          Before getting heavily into disciplining Fergus, I’d want to know the state of his information systems and workload. It sounds like he’s a bad employee, and probably needs to be on a PIP, but it might also be worthwhile to see what his burdens and problems are. Do his information systems date back to 2002? Does he have a really slow network connection? Is much of the information people seek badly organized or on paper? Etc.

          If nothing else, at least you’ve asked why he’s having problems and he can’t complain that nobody knew he was using a Pentium II.

  185. Job Hopper*

    I am an On-Call Teapot Training Instructor (Job 1), providing Instruction Support for Full Time Instructors who need coverage. Many times these Instructors will pre-assign me for their absences; other times, my schedule is random hours and days of support. [ I can decline if I have other commitments; I have flexible hours but no other benefits. Once I accept, I am committed to those hours (except for illness). ]

    I will be applying for a position as Llama Support and Liaison (Job 2). (A lateral move, but my skillset supports both jobs). Online application is due within the week. Job 2 is full time, contract type work with excellent salary and benefits. There will be some keen competition.

    If selected for Job 2, (interview or job offer) can I honor pre-assigned work days for Job 1, set before the end application date? If so, when do I bring this subject up? Application? Cover Letter? Interview? Other? Never?

    Starting date is unknown, but the opening for Job 2 is due to the present job holder moving to a new office within 3 weeks to fill their Llama Support and Liaison position.

    Thanks for any advice.

    1. fposte*

      How many preassigned work days for Job 1 do you have left, are they full days, and when do they stop? Do you know if job 2 come with vacation days pre-loaded, and would there be enough to cover the time? Unless we’re talking maybe a single day, asking a the new job to let you off days to work your former job is a big request. If there’s vacation to cover it, that’s possibly workable, but you can’t assume you’ll be granted vacation on the prescheduled days you want.

      So I’d crudely say: 1 day tops or enough preloaded vacation to cover, I’d mention it at the offer stage. More than 1 day and not enough vacation, I think things have to be over with Job 1 when you start Job 2 unless there’s a particularly collegial relationship between the two or a notable flexibility at Job 2.

      1. Job Hopper*

        Thank you for the insights. It helps a lot. And due to job1 coverage picking up, it would not be practical. Vacation days are preloaded, 10 per year in Job 2.

        The 3 days that might have been ok’d (as a one time thing) have increased to 10 over 2 different months now, so if I do get the offer, I will have to be done as of (their firm starting date).

        Thanks for clarifying this for me.

  186. AnonyMouse*

    I’m probably too late for feedback, but I’ve posted on her about my job search before. Around this time last year I started looking for what would be my second job out of graduate school (if you’re curious reasons why, I actually commented on the very first post in this thread!). It’s been about a year of applying, and still no offers (the one that I thought was promising I ended up not getting). This search is actually 3x as long as my search for my current position was, and I had less experience at that point. I feel like I was always told that searching gets easier with more experience, which is why I feel really disheartened that it’s taking me more time. Has this happened to anyone else before?

    1. Daria Grace*

      It’s not just you. The searching gets easier thing makes me angry. It does for some people but it’s not always the case. Sometimes being further out from your degree or having had to do jobs that don’t match your goals seem to complicate how you’re seen.

    2. irene adler*

      My search has gone on for 3 years now.
      I’m middle career.
      My take: it’s harder to find the right job the higher up you go.

    3. Argh!*

      Lateral searches have been more fruitful for me than upward searching. It kind of depends on the length of time in the previous position and what skills you’ve learned. Also, the management jobs I’ve lost out on turned out to be due to factors out of my control — one position was eliminated. Another one was taken by an insider, and I applied for that person’s job. An insider got that person’s job, and applying for that would be a step down for me so I gave up on them at that point. These are all jobs that I interviewed for!

      If you can learn something about the person who got the job, that might give you some insights.

    4. dumblewald*

      Are you me??? I’m going through the same exact thing! What’s infuriating for me is that when I was searching for my first job out of school, I was having trouble due to lack of experience – even for entry level jobs. Now, I have almost 2 years of experience…but now too expensive for a lot of the jobs I want. It seems like employers want really skilled workers for cheap.

  187. Claire*

    I am in a strange situation. My last job ended with my boss calling me a bitch, and the Dean of our college not caring, so having run out of spoons, I quit. HR is saving the info in case this is a pattern, but meanwhile, the person who took over my job says he can’t/won’t give me a reference. On the one hand, I do have a career as a novelist. On the other hand, fiction doesn’t pay and it would be nice if I could pick up a job as a contractor. Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Argh!*

      Suggestions for a career path? How about teaching ESL in Korea? I know someone who does that now and he’s had some real stress but also he’s living the adventure of a lifetime. I thought he would only be doing it for a year but he’s in his third year now.

      If he were a novelist, he would have lots and lots of material for a great yarn.

      1. Claire*

        Interesting suggestion! I’m not sure my spouse would want to move to another country, but it helps me to think outside the box. Thank you!

  188. Daria Grace*

    I have a friend I haven’t seen in a year I’ve been meaning to reconnect with. We’ve occasionally made tentative plans to catch up but those have never worked out. I just saw an ad for a job I could qualify for at one of my dream companies. She’s out on extended maternity leave at the moment, but my friend would normally work in HR at that company. Is it possible to reconnect without making it seem like I’m wanting to use her for advantages in the recruitment process? Although our lives have gone in different directions that make being close friends difficult, I do still value her and am mindful that given it’s a very cool, respected company she’s probably had people use her before.

    1. Namey McNameface*

      Considering it’s been a year since you saw her, I would delay the catch up until the recruitment process was over. There’s no deadline for you to meet with her now so why risk the potential misinterpretation?

      1. valentine*

        Yes. Sort the job and let her enjoy her leave. If you get it, you can reach out during your first week. If not, wait a bit, unless you’ll be considering other jobs there.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Don’t know if you’ll ever see this, but given that you do still occasionally communicate with her, I think it would be appropriate to say “Hey, I’m applying for a job at your company! Maybe I’ll get it and we can finally have lunch together!” That puts the ball in her court to either do something on your behalf, or say “cool, good luck!” and leave it alone.

  189. Alston*

    What are jobs that a former travel agent might be qualified for/good at?

    My friend has been a travel agent in some capacity for almost a decade, she’s being pushed out of her job and wants to try something new. She’s only ever worked as a travel agent and isn’t sure what jobs she should look at/how her skills would transfer.

    She does not want to do straight sales.

    I was thinking recruiting maybe?

    Any other ideas?

    1. Daria Grace*

      Something else in the tourism sector like working at a visitor information centre given she’d have a good sense of what makes travellers happy?

    2. Argh!*

      I have a friend who organizes tours for groups and is a tour guide herself for them. She creates trips to New York for Broadway musicals for people in Texas! … and as a bonus, she gets to go to New York for Broadway musicals on “company” money and time!

  190. Daria Grace*

    Another question, been a lot going on for me this week :)

    I applied for and was rejected at the company my brother works for. My brother often helps HR with things that are outside his job description. Because of this, one of the HR people kindly passed back via my brother much more detailed feedback than would usually be provided for an early stage applicant. Some of it was really insightful and helped me improve some things on my resume. Would it be appropriate to send them in a box of chocolates or would that be seen as sucking up for future applications?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Send them a box of chocolates and don’t apply to anything else there for at least 2 months. Never reference the chocolates again if you do apply.

      1. valentine*

        No gifts, especially chocolates. I don’t recommend working where HR has already favored you because of your brother.

    2. Namey McNameface*

      Box of chocolates are unnecessary, and may be seen as sucking up even if you aren’t. I would stick with a thank you email.

    3. Anono-me*

      Ask your brother what would be an appropriate way to express your appreciation.

      I would definitely ask before putting any thanks in writing or emails. Since the HR person provided the feedback indirectly via your brother this maybe a gray area policy wives that could cause them trouble if it was ‘noticed’.

    4. Alianora*

      I wouldn’t send the chocolates. To be honest I would probably just ask my brother to pass along my thanks for the feedback, since like Anono-me said putting it in writing might cause them problems.

  191. Sam Sepiol*

    This time last year I was two grades lower than I am now. I just put in an application for a six month secondment two grades up from where I am now. And it’s all happened since I left my ex, who was, quite frankly, mean to me every single day.

    I had a call with a senior manager this week who made it clear she thinks a lot of me and will help me get the experience I need to continue to grow and develop.

    I’m in my early 40s and up to when I got this job I’ve just coasted from job to job. Now I’ve finally find a career I love. It’s pretty cool :) and all happening even though I’m now a single parent!!

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      You GO! It sounds wonderful… always good to hear a success story. And, sometimes getting rid of the albatross in one’s life (Speaking only for myself) frees up the emotional space and energy to soar once the weight is lifted….

  192. Roses Angel*

    Update to my post from a couple weeks ago. I had posted about having a miscarriage and my Supervisor doubling down on my performance. Shortly after my post I was pulled into a surprise meeting with Supervisor and 2 Execs for a performance review. The Execs made it clear that we were meeting just to find out what was going on and how to fix it. Supervisor started the meeting with a document explaining all the mistakes I had made in the last 8 weeks (10 pages complete with screen shots). For reference my miscarriage started about 8 weeks before that meeting. She gave a quick over view of her issues with my performance. After an awkward silence I explained that yes I was having issues and then came out and told both Execs that I had a miscarriage and it had indeed affected my performance. Both were shocked and completely surprised. Supervisor looked quite pissed. She hadnt told them I was having a medical issue. We spent the rest of the meeting talking about what needed to be done for me to catch up. After I left the conference rm Supervisor was still meeting with them 30 minutes later. The next day and since then her tone completely changed and shes no longer doubled down. I havent fixed a quarter of the issues shes found (this is a bisy time of year for us) and shes already told me what a great job Im doing and shes pleased with my performance.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Good for you!! It sucks that you had to again talk about the miscarriage, but it looks like something good came out of it by talking about it.

      1. Rose's Angel*

        A coworker (whom I trust) and I have speculated that she may actually believe that I’m lying about the miscarriage which is why she doubled down saying I was having a performance issue. I am still looking for another job but I am glad that Supervisor has let up. The stress was making me sick.

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Good for you for standing up for yourself. I’m sorry for your loss, and the situation, but standing on the truth seems to have made a very positive difference…. Did you happen to mention to them that you HAD told her you had a medical issue? I’m wondering how she explained her behavior, of not believing you?

      1. Rose's Angel*

        Thank you. I didn’t. It didn’t feel like the time or place to do so. I think if I had the meeting would have gone a lot differently. As it is I don’t think it went the way she wanted it to .

  193. The Other Dawn*

    This is super late, but hopefully someone can answer. I have a phone interview next week, but it’s before the next open thread.

    I have a phone interview scheduled. It’s for an auditor position with a firm. Specifically, bank auditing on the compliance side. I’ve never done auditing before; however, I have years of experience in this particular area through working at banks. Originally I’d said that I would never want to be an auditor; however, I’m realizing now that there are some big things that appeal to me: short engagements; moving on to a different bank every week or two; writing up the reports; flexibility to work from home; and some possible overnight travel, but not having to travel that far all the time. Plus I like the idea of helping banks fix issues. I realize I wouldn’t be doing the fixing, but I would be identifying issues and possible helping with suggestions.

    I’m wondering what kinds of questions I should ask that are specific to auditing positions since this is something I’ve never done before.

    1. Argh!*

      You could ask about the specific things you mentioned just now: how long is the average assignment? can I work on the reports from home? on the road? What are some issues that your company has helped banks identify?

      You already know what you’re interested in! :-)

      Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        *face palm* Yeah, those are good questions and I didn’t even think about it like that. Thanks!

  194. totally new crafter*

    So…. I started making and selling something last year but all proceeds went to a fundraiser I was participating in so I didn’t actually make any money from it…. but I’ve just realized I probably need to do something about taxes from that right? Sales tax and the like? (I am in the US and I know things very by state but I don’t know the right questions to asked and if I’m going to be in trouble with local laws because I didn’t think of this BEFORE I started selling…) All proceeds will continue to be used for fundraising this year as well…. I don’t intend to make a profit off this.

    1. Margaret*

      Google your state + sales tax + “occasional sale”, and your state + sales tax + fundraiser. It does vary by state, but they generally have some level of de minimis sales where you’re exempt from having to deal with sales tax and such.

  195. Plain Jane*

    Late to the party but I’m job searching and have run into this a couple of times. I apply for a job and upload my resume and cover letter, and there are a few screening questions with things like, how many years of experience do you have? and one of them is “Is there anything you want to tell us about you?” but it’s not a required field. Are employers looking for something here, and if so, what? (Since I am already introducing myself in my cover letter.) I have been adding a couple sentence intro generically listing my experience and skills because I don’t want to leave it blank.

  196. Astrea*

    I just saw a new job posting and am not sure if I should apply or try to learn more.

    Pros: Extremely easy commute, an employing institution with a mission I value and some staff I already know, consists largely of the tasks I do in my current very-part-time job elsewhere (so I can probably do them in the right environment and might have enough experience to be considered)

    Cons: They’re tasks I don’t really want to make a full-time job of, and I don’t know if I’m physically able to. It’s very computer-intensive work that would probably worsen my chronic hand pain if done full-time, possibly in brightly lit rooms where light reflected off computer screens would pain my glare-sensitive and very nearsighted eyes, includes occasionally moving things of unspecified weight, and involves some outreach travel but doesn’t explicitly require driving (which I can’t do) so might not require *solo* travel. I don’t know how willing and able they would be to provide all of the accommodations I need. Also, they “require” “demonstrated proficiency” in a type of software that I could probably learn quickly but have never used before.

    I’m acquainted with one of the place’s current staff who might or might not be involved in hiring. I’m tempted to ask her if she can give me any more information about the job, the work environment, and what is required for applicants to be considered. But I worry that any such demonstration of a lack of confidence in my ability to do that job or thrive in that environment could get me rejected or prevent me from being considered. It probably has, in the past, with other potential employers. I could just not ask these questions unless and until I’m offered the job, but it’s really hard not to showambivalence when I have a lot of it.

    Any advice?

    1. ..Kat..*

      I also have chronic hand pain issues. I can’t think of any accommodations that can be made for a job that requires extensive keyboarding. I’m sorry, I don’t think this is a job for you.

      That said, I don’t think it would hurt to ask your acquaintance about the job. Worst case, she confirms it isn’t the job for you. Best case, she knows of another job at her company that would be a better fit.

      Good luck with your job search.

      1. Astrea*

        Thanks. Dictation software can cut down on typing, and an ergonomically good computer/workstation setup makes a big difference. And I’ve finally found a pain medication I can safely take. But there’s a limit to how much all of these things help, and I think full-time computer work is beyond it. Trouble is, it’s hard to find jobs that doesn’t heavily involve computering and/or manual labor and/or the prolonged standing and walking that worsens my chronic knee pain. Work is…*work.*

  197. Paquita*

    I had an interview this week. I think I would really enjoy working for this company. It seems to be pretty casual and low stress. At least this department. Talked to potential boss and grand boss for about an hour.

  198. Restructure Hellion*

    An update!
    First off, my co-worker who had the health scare is okay and came back to work a few days later.
    Second, I just saw an internal posting that’s a good match for my skills and would be a significant promotion. I need to go for it. I’ll ask two former supervisors who moved on within the company to vouch for me. The position might actually be involved with process improvement, documentation and training involved with the restructure, which suits me much better. Any advice?

  199. Miss Cheeks*

    This strikes me as a very… inappropriate thing to say? Maybe a tad creepy? Maybe it’s just me.

  200. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

    Need reassurance I did the right thing in saying no to going further in the job interview process. My brain loved the job (I’m the unicorn they are looking for). But I am still healing from the pain and grief of husband’s death – and digging out from the business and hoarding. I can’t physically move until I empty upteen more buildings/tents. And I’m in counseling, and have an awesome support group. My friends are all here. And I can work remotely in my job (where I have a great team). Moving, even for a good increase, to a new area for a start up, seemed like a bad idea for my long term plan of having a life that is balanced, friends, and mental health.

    Right? I know I did the right thing…. I just look at my (non-existent) retirement savings and my age, and wonder if I couldn’t have made it work….

    I left the door open so that they should call me in six months if they are hiring (this was the lead role… there will ultimately be a bigger company…).

    Good… I need to just remind myself this was the best thing for me, right now, at this point in my life.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Sounds like you made the best decision for where you are in life right now. I wish you the best with your healing and de-hoarding.

      1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        Thank you so much…I have folks (ambitious ones) in my life who are thinking this was the deal of a lifetime… my silly brain…. the good money… and it gets hard to give credence to the importance (long neglected) of self-care. Thanks for being so sweet as to help reinforce.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      This was absolutely right to do. Your life is kind of on fire right now and you have more than the normal human quota of stress, and grieving, and what sound like double full time estate managing. A new job is extra stress. A move is extra stress. It sounds like you are wise enough to know you are not ready for two extra helpings of stress when you’re already at capacity. Is it a shame to miss this opportunity? Sure. But that has nothing to do with the fact that this is the best decision you can make with the life you have.

      1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        Thanks for the extra reminder on the stress, too. I had kind of an ah-ha moment the other night where I realized that already, I have close family who are commending me on how well I am holding up under the circumstances. Why add more to what most folks already consider an untenable situation?

        Super appreciate your taking the time to help. I know we are all internet strangers, but everyone “here” has a vested interest in taking a position on this.

        1. valentine*

          If you weren’t the one hoarding, what if you just throw everything out? If you consider another job opportunity and they offer relocation cost, what if you include the clutter in that?

          1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

            Well, I’m pretty broke. Right now I’m making an extra 400-500 a month (US) off selling pieces of the hoard, and it is cheaper to sell most of it than take it to the landfill. (Some of it will be landfill, but I estimate that almost all of it is useful to someone…). So I’m trying to give away (free on craigslist) or sell for very little the questionable items; and sell for a decent price the good stuff. Think socket sets, ratchets, welder, lots of tools. I’ve also donated a lot.
            So yeah, I’d be able to donate some but it is such an overwhelming amount that I deal with just one building/ tent at a time, in sections. I’m going to try to have a big garage sale when the weather clears. I have about 12 boxes of various spray cans (brake cleaner, more)… stuff someone wants but I’d have to take to hazmat to dispose of.
            The company I interviewed with has good relocation – I just emotionally want to be past this. I’m not crying at my desk, but I am pretty consumed still with nightmares.

  201. Namey McNameface*

    So.. my coworker “Betty” has some personal issues and believes I am out to get her job (spoiler alert: I’m not). She has started making random snarky comments about my appearance like “are you gaining weight?” “why does your hair look so weird today”.

    She tends to react dramatically to benign comments so it’s not worth retorting back with my own snark. I also do not want to stoop down to her level. Betty already has a reputation for being overly emotional and I want to remain professional even to people who don’t really deserve professional courtesy.

    Please give me some advice on how to stay sane and level headed when working with an idiot like this.

    1. Alianora*

      Wow, that’s so childish of her.

      This is a common suggestion, but would it help if you treat it as something amusing? I’m an admin who works with faculty members and they often get stressed out and say rude things (although they’re not usually about my personal appearance), but it’s stopped bothering me because I realize it’s not me, it’s them. Now it’s just a funny thing that happened, like watching it happen on a sitcom. In fact, the ruder it is, the less personally I take it.

      How I react: I gloss over it and pretend that what they said was something normal and work-related. Trying to imagine what I would do if it was a comment on my appearance, which is a little harder to ignore than passive aggression. I think the best thing would be to vaguely acknowledge that they said something, then segue into a work-related topic. “Huh, does my hair look look weird? Anyway, do you have the Ninja Report ready?”

      Also, I would maybe mention to my manager that this was happening. Not necessarily so that she would intervene (although if it keeps happening, maybe) but so that she has context if Betty’s problem with you escalates.

    3. Gretchen*

      If she overreacts to even benign comments, there’s probably no response you can give that she won’t find a way to turn into an issue. That said, can you try agreeing with her in as low-key and neutral a way as possible? Take the wind out of her sails, show her that her comments aren’t bothering you, and probably disconcert her. Not snarky, not mean, just utterly unaffected by her.

      Her, snarkily:”Are you gaining weight?”
      You, earnestly: “Yeah, thanks for noticing”. Smile neutrally and walk away.

      Her, snarkily: “Why does your hair look so weird today?”
      You, casually: “Oh, just lucky I guess!” *smiles*

      Alternatively, you could just go with a flat “wow” or “wow, that’s rude” and no further response.

      What you say isn’t really going to change her, she’s going to find a way to Betty no matter what. Having a neutral, unaffected response just lets you rise above it, disregard her weirdness, and treat her as inconsequential, while remaining polite and professional. And then remind yourself how insecure and unhappy she must be, to think that this behavior will help her.

    4. Observer*

      How would you react if some random 6 yo said this to you? I suspect that that would be the perfect way to react to this person.

      She’s acting like a little child, and unless you need to actually work with her and your ability to do your job depends on her, you have as little interest in her opinion of you as in the opinion of some random child.

  202. Lara Cruz*

    Hey commentariat! For once I’m asking for advice out here.

    I’ve had a rough year where I was let go out of the blue in July under shady circumstances. It was a major blow to my ego but I pushed forward and managed to secure an offer at a new company – in a new country even!

    At the time I was very excited, but now that immigration hang ups have been cleared and my job start is finally happening in the coming weeks, I’m finding myself consumed with anxiety. My new position is actually a promotion over my last one, and I’m going to be supervising a junior employee for the first time. The opportunity and the company seemed wonderful all the same and I wanted the greater responsibility! But now I’m trying to get a grip on fears of messing up or not being ready, etc, etc. Since an international relocation is part of the process, I guess I’m trying to plan ahead so I don’t fail and get stranded with no employment in another country.

    Any advice to help me get over this hump? It’s still a few weeks away.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think your anxiety is totally normal.
      Plus, sounds a little bit like imposter syndrome happening.

      Why were you let go? Was it cause or just company cost-cutting disguised as a person-problem?

  203. Courtney*

    I recently interviewed for an internal team leader position. This role would be the same as my current role but would have now direct reports. It’s a mat cover position so 6-12 months. My good friend at work also interviewed for the role and told me that she was told in the interview that it was a “Change in responsibility” only and that there would be no pay raise.
    This was not mentioned to me in the interview nor did I ask as I assumed there would be a pay raise. I was recently promoted and told that the fact that I didn’t have any direct reports meant my pay was less than those who did have direct reports (which makes sense to me) My question is, how do I address the fact that this was not disclosed to me? And is it reasonable that they are not offering any pay change despite the significant increase in responsbility?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      If they make an offer or ask you to come in for a second interview, ask about the salary. You don’t have to frame it as being about how it wasn’t disclosed to you

  204. Me--Blargh!*

    How does a wealth management company (like a franchise of a very large company) provide a retirement account with a job but no health insurance? I applied for an office job but then when they contacted me, I asked about it, as PTO and retirement were listed but no insurance. They said no, they don’t offer it. I said thank you and forgot about it, not expecting to hear back, but I did.

    I’m thinking because they’re too cheap to offer it. Obviously they could administer a retirement account for free! Do they think they’ll hire someone and that person won’t bail immediately when something with insurance comes along? I highly doubt they’re paying enough to make staying worthwhile. Or is it an internship in disguise?

    I’m disgusted that I have no choice but to talk to them. Although this could be fun, trying to think of a hilariously subtle way to call them on it without doing it outright.

    1. SemiRetired*

      Because offering health insurance would cost a lot more? If they do “wealth management,” they can probably run retirement plans with very little extra cost to them. Doesn’t mean they might not try to pass along costs to employees. If you take this job, look very carefully at fees in their plan. Could be the wealth they are managing best is theirs. On the other hand, maybe they are offering enough in pay to cover buying your own insurance? If so, try to calculate your cost for comparable coverage.

  205. Bryce*

    Is there a job resource out there focused on entry-level positions? Linkedin has a handful, Craigslist sorts by type not requirements so it’s a lot of digging, and I’d like to make sure there’s not some obvious resource I’m missing between those and hunting down specific businesses.

  206. The Other Dawn*

    I mentioned I have a phone interview for an auditor position (banking, compliance). The ad mentioned a range (woo hoo!) and my current salary is in that range, very close to the top of it actually. The ad says they’re looking for 5+ years of the banking experience I have. I have 22+ years. I’m not sure how much I should ask for in terms of salary. I know the bottom of the range is where someone who meets the minimum requirements would likely start, but I’m wondering if it would be crazy to ask for something that starts at mid-range and ends close to the top. I have about 15 years of experience doing the type of thing they’re looking for in the kinds of banks they serve and a total of 22 years in banking doing working in the peripheral areas that would tie into what I’d be doing.

    UGH I woke up at 5 am and couldn’t get back to sleep because I’m so hung up on salary. And it’s looming large in my mind that I have less than a month to go until I’m unemployed and I’m getting nowhere with the job search.

  207. Signing a Document*

    Late to the party but hopefully someone is still here:

    My job attached a code of ethics document to our paychecks this week – yeah I know, 2019 and no direct deposit – with a form to say we received, read, understood, and will abide by such code. The second page was the code, but the owner obviously had taken 4 website pages and shrunk them down onto one page in so that he wouldn’t have to print 4 pages times however many employees there are. The result is many people cannot read it without glasses or a magnifying glass. It is literally fine print. And this is what they want us to sign in acknowledgement. How can they expect people to sign something that is difficult to read? Is there any legality in this?

    1. WellRed*

      Why go right to the legal route? Has anyone told him, I can’t read this and therefore cannot sign it. Can you please make a readable version available?

      1. Signing a Document*

        Yes. A few people have gone that route. And the owner just laughs. He thinks it’s funny.

        Why go the legal route? Because it says that failure to comply can result in termination. I finally was able to read it and after working there for a few years, I’m just learning what could have/could have not been held against me. Furthermore, there are things in there that I know other employees are quite guilty of, and they have not been terminated. At least give us a legible document and don’t laugh when people say they can’t read it.

  208. Alex*

    Hi, I work in a warehouse, I think I might get fired soon. I’ve been trying to get an office job, but the last relevant experience I had was almost five years ago. I’ve applied to dozens of jobs, went to career fairs, went to private and state agencies… nothing is working. I need some advice on what to do, this is getting frustrating.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Sorry no one has responded, but your question is a little vague for people to answer.

      What do you mean by office job? (area of interest)
      Any specific industry?

      Skills: anything in particular needed for what you want? (software, etc.)

      Transferrable skills: Is there anything from the warehouse job you can transfer to an office job?
      (customer service, supervising temps, training, etc.)

      These will help you identify potential job targets and advice, versus just saying “any old office job will do,” know what I mean?

      Have you considered “office jobs” in logistics?
      They’re turning quite high-tech, incorporating robotics, IoT artificial intelligence and skilled knowledgeable people who can run it all. Just a thought.

      Think about some of this. With a little more info you might get some solid advice about how to break into certain career fields by posting on here, or more general resume help from Alison. It’s an incredibly diverse community that wants to be helpful.

  209. Friendly Ghost Coordinator*

    I had a job interview this week. In speaking with them, I learned that an office building was being remodeled and the position would be based out of there in a few months.

    I used to serve on a board which met in that building. My question is: should I have asked if remodeling got rid of the ghost in that building?

  210. UnicornHunter*

    I’m pretty sure it’s time to leave my current job: the job itself has morphed into something I don’t enjoy & am only okay at doing, management doesn’t care about or invest in the people, morale is nonexistent, there’s no role for me to grow into, and I don’t use my skills as much as I’d like.

    However, there’s nothing urgent that means I have to get out immediately, like a terrible boss, and there are almost no jobs in my field without picking up & moving, which won’t work for me for family reasons. So, I will probably need to change fields, and this feels weirdly terrifying. How did/do you move past the “at least this is the devil I know” mentality of a bad but not completely unbearable situation to move toward something new and hopefully better?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Take your time!
      Seriously, I’ve been there and counseled friends and coworkers not to do anything rash like quitting without lining-up something.

      Dust off the resume and begin the search. Try to pull one or two notable projects from current job you can point to as successes. Gather recommendations and referrals, let your network know you’re interested in making a move (if you can), and begin testing the waters. It has been a good time lately in the economy for movement.

  211. New to Mgmt*

    On this site, the recommendation is to give 2 weeks notice for resigning. Does that apply to Supervisor, Manager or higher positions? I was told for leadership position – Supervisor and above its 4 weeks.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Technically, unless you have s contract, no notice is ever required (at will employment).
      Two weeks notice is a courtesy for most positions. However, for high-level roles, there may be genuine reasons why two weeks simply isn’t enough time to wrap things up, and a month may be more appropriate. Still, this is not ‘required’ by any law, so I think you’d really have to consider the circumstances, workload and relationship with the company.

      I’ve generally observed C-Suite levels tend to give about a month notice, but positions such as Directors generally are still two or three weeks. But I’ve also seen these executives be let go immediately too!

Comments are closed.