open thread – January 4-5, 2019

by Alison Green on January 4, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. BirthdayBlues*

    Each time there is a birthday in the office, I have been aided with the responsibility of purchasing (I am reimbursed each quarter), gathering signatures, and decorating the envelope of the card. This was a task that used to be shared by all employees, but the precedent has pointed to me for well over a year now because I am artistic (drawing is a hobby, nothing to do with my professional job).

    Nearly three weeks ago my birthday came and went and no card for me. No one stepped up to do it. I am rightfully a bit hurt, even though I have to assume it was an innocent oversight. I will absolutely not be coordinating my own card, especially as it could come across petty given it would be so late.

    Birthdays are posted in the break room for all to see. I really feel unappreciated not having the gesture reciprocated. I’m at a loss of what to do, or if it’s worth bringing up. Last year my card was organized, but by someone who has since left the company.

      1. Garroulous Jane*

        I would stop as well. Not because my birthday went un-celebrated, but because it is not an *office* celebration if all the work falls to one person. Then is really just you giving each celebrant a card. Maybe make a casual announcement (not a birthday, at a general meeting) that you want to give others a chance. Or just buy a whole box of birthday cards and give to the group manager/supervisor to dole out.

        1. TootsNYC*

          For future, this is what I might do.
          Announce that because no one bothered to do anything about your birthday, that’s an indicator that the duty has become too consolidated in one person, and that the birthday INITIATIVE needs to become shared by more people.

          And so you won’t take the responsibility anymore; someone else needs to do it, and you recommend that it be two or three people, to eliminate the chance that the next person will also be overlooked.

          Feel free to say, “I’ll be happy to decorate the envelope if the organizer wants to bring it to me, but I’m not going to do all the initiating anymore.”

          1. Kes*

            I wouldn’t announce it that way; unfortunately, I think it will just make her sound petty (“If I don’t get a birthday card, none of you do either!”).

            However, I think it’s reasonable to realize that you’re putting a lot of effort into something that isn’t even actually part of your job, and decide that it might be time to step back and let others take over (it’s nice that you’ve been decorating the envelope, but I can assure you most places get along just fine without that and the admins are in charge of birthdays if anyone is, not whoever is most artistic).

            I would just be matter of fact and announce that you’ve been doing this for a while but find you don’t have time to do this anymore and someone else (or multiple other people) will need to take over if people want this to continue

            1. motherofdragons*

              Totally co-signing “I would just be matter of fact and announce that you’ve been doing this for a while but find you don’t have time to do this anymore and someone else (or multiple other people) will need to take over if people want this to continue”.

              I also just want to offer validation that this really sucks! I’d be upset in your shoes, for sure. And you can bet that all of my birthday card efforts would come to a screeching and unapologetic halt.

      2. Art3mis*

        Same. My old job forgot my birthday and then promptly asked me to sign a holiday card for someone who I’d never met and no longer worked there.

      3. AliceW*

        I would stop doing the birthday cards. I find it odd that so many people celebrate birthdays at work. I’ve worked professionally for 25 years in different industries for very large, medium -sized and small companies with less than 12 employees, and I’ve never seen anyone’s birthday celebrated. Ever. I did once work for a company that gave everyone their birthday off, but that’s it.

        1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

          Same! I think it’s kind of strange for adults to make a big deal out of their birthday, particularly if it’s not a ‘landmark’ year, particularly if it’s at work. I mean, if you want to ask your coworkers to go out with you for a celebratory drink or whatever, sure that’s fine. But to make birthday celebrations at work mandatory seems like overkill.

        2. Arya Snark*

          I find it odd that a lot of adults celebrate birthdays in general but my old office did a cake once a month for all the birthdays. There were no cards to sign with no one singled out or left out either. It was nice excuse to have cake and chat about nothing work related.

          1. Tysons in NE*

            I worked at one place that there was once a month party “hosted” by different departments. Assigned of course.
            But at this company wide event, birthdays were read out. Just the name of the employee who had a birthday in that month. So “Happy Birthday to Fergus, Sansa, etc.” The list of people came from HR and while the same person usually did it, it was known that is HR-Mary wasn’t there, HR-Catbert was to produce the list.

          2. Cait*

            Yeah- my office has a cake day each month. Our HR head announces that month’s birthdays and any new hires that other groups may not be aware of, and then we eat cake. She also makes a point of asking if she missed anything in the announcements. I’ve not seen anyone get upset about it.

            1. JessaB*

              I worked for a state institution that had a birthday club. You put in x amount a paydate, there was a special account at the institution’s credit union and there were parties once a month that covered all the people that month, people did potlatch food and the money went to get a professional cake and a decent small present for each person. If you didn’t want to participate you just didn’t. It was like two bucks a paycheque if that. We had the party at the institution canteen/snack shop. And there were two people in charge of it, because the account required two signatures to prevent theft. Worked great all seven years I worked there.

          3. Justin*

            We do cards and that’s it.

            But i do love my birthday because it makes me feel happy, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that if you’re not pressuring anyone.

            1. Third username*

              I agree completely. Just because I’m an adult doesn’t mean I have to stop enjoying my birthday. My birthday is the one day a year I get to feel special. What’s wrong with that?

            2. CleverGirl*

              Seriously, what’s with all the hate on adult birthdays? What about being an adult means we can’t have fun anymore? And at what point does caring about your own birthday become “strange”? High school? When you turn 18 and are legally an adult? When you move out? 21?

              1. BirthdayisONEday*

                When adults started claiming birthday weeks and birthday months….
                Seriously…you were shoved out a hoohah. Or c-section. Or hatched. Whatever way you came to be…other than immediate family, no one cares. And no one else needs to be subjected to, “BUT IT’S MY BIRTHDAY WEEKKKKKK/MONTHHHH!” and feel forced to celebrate.

                1. CleverGirl*

                  LOL, yes, this I agree with. If you want to take the week/month of your birthday and treat yourself, go ahead, but don’t subject the rest of us to constant reminders that it’s your “birth month!!!” and expect us to make a huge deal about it every time we see you.

                  Also, while we’re at it, can we drop the “half birthday” thing already. Your birthday is the day you were born. 6 months before/after your birthday is not the day you were half born. Thus, itt’s NOT your “half birthday”. Take the number of people who care about your actual birthday and multiply that by 0 and that’s the number who care about your “half birthday”.

            3. coffee cup*

              There’s nothing wrong with it at all. It might be that some associated birthdays with children, but I don’t see why people should stop feeling a wee bit happy and special because they’re adults. Heck, we need that more than ever these days!

            4. Indie*

              It’s not the fact that adults aren’t supposed to enjoy their birthday (I love mine) but the fact that adults generally tend to go to work, a place where you’re not necessarily truly friends with people and where there are temps, new starters etc. I think a lot of people feel that birthdays at work can get kind of admin-y and meaningless and it is easy to exclude people. Also when my name gets read off a monthly list or when a harrassed admin who is under appreciated runs around with a dutiful card, I’m adult enough to say ‘why bother?’ It is different in different workplaces of course but I think the best course of action is to allow people the day off and encourage them to self arrange it.

              1. Coder von Frankenstein*

                Agreed. I organize a masquerade party for my own birthday every year (I did it when I turned 40 and everyone had so much fun that I turned it into a tradition), but that’s with my friends on my own time.

                At work, I find birthday celebrations boring and annoying, *especially* my own.

        4. Ace in the Hole*

          The last time my workplace did something for my birthday was when I turned 18. It didn’t feel weird at all, mostly because there were some job duties minors weren’t allowed to do. Aside from a big milestone like that? Not interested in a work birthday celebration.

      4. SheLooksFamiliar*

        OP, I’m not super petty and I would totally stop doing birthday celebrations. Innocent oversight or not, your team thinks you’re their den mother.

        1. NotaPirate*

          In general how do you get away from that reputation? One coworker said i was the mom of our lab and it made me extremely uncomfortable.

          2. Clorinda*

            Consider what you do that is mommish and then stop. If it’s just ‘being 15 or more years older than everyone else,’ you can’t stop, but you can tell your younger co-worker that their comment was strange and made you uncomfortable.

            1. pancakes*

              You could also just turn it around and ask whoever said it why they said it. If they can’t articulate an answer that isn’t embarrassing, the awkwardness is theirs to keep, as it should’ve been anyhow.

              1. TechWorker*

                I’ve been referred to as ‘the mum of the group’ once, when I was training a bunch of new hires. I can’t remember if I explicitly said ‘please don’t call me that’ but I did make a point of saying it was a bizarre thing to call a colleague.

          3. Artemesia*

            I’d immediately stop doing any Mom tasks or other nurturing even if you might ordinary have been happy to do so. And if requests for ‘Momming’ come your way, I would deflect them to other people. And never let anyone refer to you as the ‘office Mom’.

          4. Chatty Katy*

            Next time someone says that, look them straight in the eye, pause, and then say “No. Not mom. RULER”

      5. MatKnifeNinja*

        @Jenn

        #TeamPettyToo

        There’s no graceful way to say, “Which one of you schmoes will step it up for my BDay?”

        Actions speak louder than words. New Year. Time for a new routine.

        If anyone gets butt hurt, they can become the birthday planner.

        I’d be more aggravated that I am wasting my time on a “oh, yeah that nice”, than truly appreciated.

      6. DH-B*

        Me too! And I did stop at a former job. One gal flat out called me out (after several months of no birthday celebrations) and asked, “aren’t there treats for my birthday…”

    2. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      No good deed goes unpunished.

      I’m sorry this happened to you. My kneejerk reaction would be to stop doing the cards. I don’t know if it’s worth bringing up to your manager, although you might want to talk to her if you are stopping the cards.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        This sums up my take on it, too.

        No reason all the weight should land on you for something that is supposed to be a nice thing for everyone.

      2. Artemesia*

        It is the first month of the year — great time to stop or announce you are stopping and someone else needs to pick it up if people actually want it. One problem with doing this kind of task is you get labeled in ways that do not advance you professionally. No one ever got a promotion because they cleaned the kitchen, made the coffee and did the birthday cards.

        1. Cat Fan*

          Agreed, now is the time for smooth transition to someone else. You can just say you’ve been doing it alone for the past year and it’s time for someone else to take over. No need to debate with anyone, just keep saying in a nice way it’s time for someone else to take over.

    4. DC*

      I would suggest employing Alison’s scripts for folks who no longer want to be seen as the baker, etc. “I’m sorry, I just don’t have the time/bandwidth/availability for that right now.” or “I’m taking a bit of a break, I’ve been feeling burned out on my artwork.”

      Let this duty pass to someone else- and then be the one person who makes sure they get a card in the future.

      1. BirthdayBlues*

        Great advice! And I appreciate everyone’s responses so far. Pass the responsibility, but make sure the one person doesn’t go unnoticed.

        1. valentine*

          Assigning yourself the duty of organizing the card for the one person who has to do everyone else’s just perpetuates the cycle. When one of you is on leave, no one’s going to pick up the slack they don’t know about and, even if you’re known as the card person, it’s only hurt you now everyone’s overlooked you. Bow out completely from the organizing. I can’t think of a way to do this well because it’s so random. Even if the admin has a box of cards ready to go, someone has to add/remove a card for every new hire/separation and on and on.

          1. D'Arcy*

            My office handled birthday cards this way: the boss personally did cards for all of the office staff, and the office staff did them for everyone else, not including the boss.

      3. Emma*

        The other option is to frame it as “it doesn’t seem like anyone else is particularly fussed about doing birthday cards, so I don’t think there’s any point continuing to corral everyone into it if they’re otherwise uninterested”. That has the advantage of focusing on this stuff as a collective thing – either everyone does it or noone does, rather than a string of overburdened individuals.

    5. MissMonsoon*

      Adult birthdays are hard. It’s almost like we aren’t supposed to celebrate ourselves. Also, people are oblivious if it doesn’t directly impact them. It sucks, but it is what it is.

      I wouldn’t say you have to go so far as to organize your own birthday card but maybe put a bug in the ear of someone you trust next year before your birthday. I was really hurt one year when my very close co-workers completely forgot my birthday and when they remembered, they jokingly asked for a countdown. They got a countdown the next year and I received a lovely card which is all I ever want. People to acknowledge that I’m on the planet and it’s a good thing.

    6. Audrey Puffins*

      Bring it up! It’s SO EASY for people to assume that someone else has got a task covered when it’s not been given specifically to them, and I bet people will feel awful when they realise you’ve been overlooked. Decide what you want to do going forward – get someone specific to remember your birthday in future? Spread out the responsibility to an organised group rather than doing it all? – then mention it to your boss. “I feel awkward bringing this up, but it was my birthday last week and no one organised my card. Could we please…” and so on and so forth. It sucks to be overlooked, even if it’s just a card, and it’s totally normal to feel unappreciated when it happens.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        This! Even if BirthdayBlues passes on the task to someone else or declines to do it further, at least she can point out “Hey mine was missed, it shouldn’t all fall on me to do this, we need to make sure we appreciate everyone (or no one)”

      2. fposte*

        Yes. This is why this isn’t uncommon–people post this exact thing here with some frequency.

        Basically, you feel like you’re handling other people’s birthdays because it’s a nice thing. They think you’re handling birthdays because it’s part of your job. They’re not going to take on part of your job unless they’re tasked with it.

        1. Sally*

          At my new job, every month they send out a list of the birthdays from that month. Then we have cupcakes in the lunchroom on one day to celebrate everyone. Doing it for everyone with a birthday in each month means no one gets left out, and your own birthday would be covered. If you haven’t already soured on the whole thing, maybe this method would work for you.

          1. TootsNYC*

            This is what we did at my last job. I ended up being the person in charge of getting it done (it tended to be potluck food w/ company drinks, and no card), and when it was my month, it didn’t feel weird to organize, bcs there were other people whose birthdays were on that month.

            If we’d done a card as well, I would simply have said to a colleague or two, “I’m buying the card for the other June birthdays, but I’m not buying my own–someone else will have to do that.”

            I’m totally OK w/ hints!

        2. Gatomon*

          I agree that someone needs to be formally tasked with it, whether it’s another peer or OP’s boss or whomever. When I was the appointee at my old job, someone was specifically appointed to remember my birthday so I was never left out. But it was just a small, branch-office sized recognition thing, and instead of cards or food, we did emails. So it was pretty low-effort overall.

      3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Honestly, depending on how snarky I was feeling I would follow the same procedure for your card for all others.

        Get one, wander around getting signatures, and decorate your card. I’ll bet someone picks it up next year.

        OP: Hi Jane, Bob, Joe got a card for you to sign
        J/B/J: Oh great whose birthday?
        OP: Mine! it was last week and I guess everyone got used to me doing the cards… so umm I guess I’m doing my own card

        Ok maybe don’t do that. But yes, you are the card person. Unless you can find someone to split the task with… How about you find another person in the office that would be willing to do this and split the tasks, they buy the card and get signatures and you decorate the envelope. This way there is another person designated to do this with you ensuring that there is at least another person who will get you a card.

    7. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      This is all assuming you still want to do the cards:

      Sometimes the person organizing it is invisible. “Oh, birthday cards get organized” is the prevailing assumption, so people assume that Somebody Is Handling It. You have to reach out to someone, perhaps your supervisor, perhaps someone else, to say, hey, I need someone to handle my own birthday.

      This also helps when there’s more than one person doing the thing, because then they can back the other person up.

      If you don’t want to do it, well, I’m assuming this isn’t on your actual job description and it just A Nice Thing To Do For Morale. So push back. Say “hey, this used to be on a rota, can we go back to that? I want to spend more time on X, Y, Z job duties.”

      1. MassMatt*

        That the person doing this sort of thing is often “invisible” and unappreciated suggests it’s the kind of thing people should not take on.

        OP didn’t mention a gender but this sounds very much like the sort of semi-volunteer activity that people just expect women to do, like bringing in all the food for pot lucks, cleaning up after meetings, etc.

        1. LittleMissCrankyPants*

          I was specifically asked if I wanted to do the birthday card thing just this past month, and I told told my male supervisor, that, no, I think a man should take on this emotional labor task. (The previous three card organizers that I’ve known of since I started there were women.) He looked kinda dumbfounded for a minutes and then nodded.

          A man is doing it now. :)

    8. Not Elizabeth*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you. I do think you should bring it up, though I’m not sure with whom — whoever you go to for reimbursement? your manager? an office manager/chief admin type? (I wouldn’t do a mass email though.)

      You could say something like, “I haven’t been sure how to bring this up, and it seems like a small thing, but I’ve been doing everybody’s birthday card for the past year or so. My birthday was three weeks ago, and….” Maybe present it as a problem to be solved — when one person does all the b-days, their own gets overlooked (and it sounds like even if you did get a card, it might not have been as nice because you’re the artist!). So you could propose going back to a rotating system.

      Good luck. If I were one of your coworkers, I would want to know and make it up to you.

      1. Artemesia*

        There is no way to couple this with the missing of your own birthday without looking childish and petty. It isn’t fair, but it is so. I’d drop being the office drudge in this respect but not mention my own birthday at all.

        1. CM*

          I think it depends what the most important issue is for the OP as well as how big the office is. If it’s a larger office, then agree, bring it up with whoever is “in charge” of the cards — the office manager would be a likely candidate and then either say “I’m happy to keep getting cards as long as somebody remembers my birthday as well” OR “I’d rather not be the designated card person” but not “I’d rather not be the designated card person because you all forgot my birthday” even though that’s a valid reaction.

          If it’s a smaller office — like six people or something — I think it’s fine to have a group discussion about it at some point when it feels natural and say, “Hey, it kind of hurt my feelings that you guys forgot my birthday.”

    9. Meredith Brooks*

      I’m just writing to give you a pat on the shoulder. I am so frustrated for you. I’m sure it was largely a matter of people not thinking about something that they have sort of been trained they don’t have to think about, since you did it for them. I don’t think it’s petty to take a step back. The truth is, you were doing something kind for everyone, and they took advantage of it — not maliciously, but still. If everyone isn’t able to acknowledge their coworkers in a reciprocal way, then they no longer deserve to have you do it for them.

    10. Alfonzo Mango*

      I would definitely bring it up with your manager, or HR! This is worth mentioning, you were left out of the team activity.

    11. Casper*

      That’s such a bummer! I’m sorry that happened.

      Maybe if you brought it up to manager just like, “Hey, I don’t know if you know this, but I’ve somehow become the sole birthday card organizer. Can you help me to get more people involved? If I’m ever on vacation then someone’s birthday might get missed, which is pretty bad for morale. In fact, I didn’t get a card for my birthday since I’m the only one doing this.” If it’s like, I want to prevent other people from getting hurt, it might feel like it’s not about yours?

      (All this to say it’s a frustrating conundrum like it seemss petty to care about your birthday [it’s not] but any situation where there’s unequal treatment feels shitty)

      2. Chip Hackman*

        I think this is the definite move because it points out how having it all fall on one person can lead to issues and people getting forgotten, etc.

    13. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Please try to convince yourself that you are not unappreciated. It’s not personal. It’s a system problem, not a person problem.

      For everyone else in the office, the birthday cards are just a think that happens, so they’re not thinking about the birthday calendar.

      To make sure it doesn’t happen this year, I’d ask to share the responsibility with someone — alternate months, or work together on each card. Be sure to make it clear to them that you’ll handle their birthday card on your own. I’m guessing that will be enough signals to make sure that they take care of yours.

      (Of course you could also just directly ask someone to do it, but if you’re anything like me part of what you’re looking for is to not have to ask for the recognition. You want to be appreciated, not to put in a requisition order for your birthday card.)

      1. Bostonian*

        “It’s a system problem, not a person problem.” I like this line. It totally sucks that nobody organized a card for OP, but I can also see how nobody thought of it, either.

    14. Tysons in NE*

      I would be volunteering someone else to help out going forward. If there is a list assign a month(s) per person (obviously not your own to you) If there is any push back, explain your reason.
      I probably wouldn’t be so politically correct when explaining, but others on this site are much better at wording things than I am.
      Another thought, do people really want this? Just take the temperature of the employees if the majority like the recognition.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I worked one place where no one wanted it. A person from another department decided celebrating was a good thing. This person was coming from a good place but she was blind to seeing that people actually did not want cake and cards. It took a bit to get it across to her. “stop with the cakes”.

    15. Person from the Resume*

      That disappointing, but not surprising. That would have required someone to see your name and realize the implication (“hey, Blues usually does the birthday card”) and realize that no one else was doing and take it upon themselves to it for you.

      You have become the person responsible for birthday cards; you’re the one that didn’t arrange for someone else to do your card. To prevent the problem next year, you will have to mention it someone.
      (1) When your birthday is coming up ask someone to do it for you.
      (2) Change the process now so you’re not the only one doing cards and when your birthday rolls around next year it’s already the other birthday team members responsibility.

      If you say nothing, I doubt anyone else will notice and this will happen again next year.

    16. WellRed*

      I think the key is that people are expected to decorate the envelope (??) which, frankly, I would find irritating on top of buying the card (what’s up with quarterly reimbursement?) and gathering signatures. If there’s an artistic person, like others who can bake or quilt, people are going to let it migrate to that person, which is unfair. Then, as so often happens, the person who does all the work gets forgotten. Say something.

    17. Venus*

      It sounds like there are two tasks – one is getting a card, and the other is signatures. If I were you, I would be tempted to make that division clear, as it would be fun to draw cards and it would be more work to go around and get signatures from everyone. So I would ask my employer that they return to the previous system, with the knowledge that the organiser for that birthday could ask you to draw up a card.

      You could mention it in a context of “What if I’m sick, and miss someone’s birthday?” if that would be helpful. Whatever you decide – you are totally valid in your feelings of having been forgotten. I would be grumpy if that happened to me! (although the irony is that I do not want my birthday celebrated at work, so personally I wouldn’t mind having been forgotten, but if I was in your situation… I’d be annoyed!)

    18. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m petty, so I’d stop doing it, and when someone asks, I’d say “Oh, we still do birthday cards? I thought we’d stopped that.”

      1. CandyCorn*

        I was gonna write the exact same thing, because I too am petty af. “Oh – when I didn’t get a card for my birthday I assumed we stopped doing that.”

        Of course, the only sensible way for adults to celebrate birthdays at the office is to take charge of your own birthday. That way you have as much or as little celebration as you want. My dad made that rule for his office and I always thought it was a good one.

        1. Lisa*

          I love that idea. Today is my birthday, I am home, and when I come back to the office I do not want any acknowledgement at all. I go to work to work. I can buy my own cake.

      2. argh*

        Yup.

        “I feel a little embarrassed that I’ve been organizing birthdays when it seems that others aren’t really that interested in celebrating them. I didn’t realize that until my birthday passed without any cards or mentions. I figured it would be awkward for me to continue doing the card thing when it’s obviously not a kind of celebration that others enjoy, and everyone can rest assured that they won’t be asked to participate in such silliness again. My bad!”

        (I mean, I assume that this is not actually the case. But kill them with passive aggressiveness. They deserve it. meh.)

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was shocked and excited when I wasn’t forgotten with our card tradition. But that’s due to a boss who is thoughtful and doesn’t let this slip.

      I think it needs to be at minimum a duo involved so nobody is overwhelmed or skipped. That’s how to fix the system. It’s one of those things that’s so small, it’s taken for granted but still stings when it goes wrong.

    20. Boop*

      “I thought that since I didn’t get one, that I was the only one who cared about doing this, so I’ve stopped.”

    21. Sled dog mama*

      Didn’t read all the responses so sorry if this is no longer relevant.
      In my office each month is responsible for procuring the cards for the next month. Each person writes/decorates as they see fit. We have one person who will typically do the name on the envelope because he can make beautiful embellishments. We also have a defined order of who signs cards (cards go to Riley’s team first then Riley takes them to Sandra’s team etc).
      This is really nice because it spreads out the work and everyone is involved.

    22. learnedthehardway*

      Honestly, I’d do it myself, since that way, it definitely gets done.
      (Speaking as the person who gets themselves their own birthday and Christmas presents, here. My spouse will get me something, but my big presents are things I’ve chosen and purchased. It works out better this way….)

      1. TootsNYC*

        Personally, I would rather be forgotten.

        Because then I didn’t participate in being overlooked!

    23. Bluebell*

      I think you are well within your rights to gracefully hand this over to another co-worker! and maybe they should give you a thank you card for being awesom at it for so long! :)

    24. EmKay*

      I understand how you feel. I was admin of a pretty large team at my old job, 60ish people. I coordinated birthday cards (and lunches) for everyone. The year I quit doing it is the year everyone forgot me for my birthday AND for admin professionals day. I didn’t make a fuss, I didn’t bring it up, I just stopped. I’m still salty about it.

    25. Anonandon*

      I’d probably stop the birthday celebrations, or do something like one company where I worked – whoever had the birthday would bring in a small treat to share with the team (fruit, bagels, etc.). It seemed to work pretty well, and for those who didn’t want to recognize their birthdays, they didn’t feel left out.

    26. t.i.a.s.p.*

      Well first of all, happy belated birthday.

      Do you like the card tradition? Totally agree with everyone else that if you enjoy it, it needs to be spread around between more people.

      But if you don’t actually enjoy either getting a card (separate from the issue that you’ve been doing this for everyone and no one did it for you) or giving the cards, I would just full stop and let the tradition die.

      Personally, buying the card and collecting signatures is the kind of task that I hate doing, and I would probably be even more annoyed if I had to front the expense, track it, and only got reimbursed quarterly.

    27. stitchinthyme*

      My office doesn’t celebrate individual birthdays; near the end of every month they have a cake or cupcakes or something to celebrate all the birthdays that occurred in that month, and the management team leaves the employee a card signed by just them on your actual birthday. So maybe that would be a better solution. (My husband’s office does the same thing.)

    28. Ladybug*

      I was the one who used to serve as the “so-and-so’s birthday is coming up!” calendar. My boss, who normally bakes a cake for birthday celebrations and has enlisted my help in the past to make decorative banners, told me a couple weeks beforehand that she’d not be at work the day of my birthday but promised to make it up to me.

      She never did, and after she went all out to celebrate another co-worker’s birthday, I realized that it’d never happen. I’m still nursing resentment from it, because she’s made a grand spectacle over younger co-workers’ milestone birthdays and etc. I have a milestone birthday coming up this year, and I doubt that anything awaits me.

        1. Rachel in Non Profits*

          We have a great system in our office of 12 people. We are each assigned one other person’s birthday to organize, which is just a card with signatures and some kind of treat for staff meeting. Our admin sends out a reminder a couple of days before the birthdays to the person who is assigned to organize it. She includes her own birthday in the email reminder list, but that is her stated responsibility.

          I’m pretty close to the admin and she doesn’t mind. it’s still a surprise because she doesn’t know what kind of treat they are going to get or the card.

    30. Tuna*

      I’ve been there. I’m the one who makes sure everyone gets a gift, so a few years went by where I didn’t get a card or a gift. One year I was asked to buy my own card and get it signed. Sigh. What I ended up doing was conscripting other employees to help. One was responsible for the card (she made cards, they were lovely) and one was responsible for cake, another for planning a monthly b-day lunch. It worked well, until CardLady moved away. Then a volunteer stepped up to do cards, so we’re doing OK again.

    31. BirthdayBlues*

      OP here. Wow! This has generated a lot of response. I hope this reply doesn’t get buried.

      It is true that the card responsibility used to get passed around, organized by whoever was friendliest/closest to the card receiver (a bad system, for sure). If no one stepped up, I would usually take on the responsibility at my own doing, so that’s on me. This is how my artistic abilities were outed, I did some really nice cards (realistic portraits of their pet, or a caricature type cartoon version of their face on the body of a professional sports team). Well, my boss liked the envelopes so much asked me to start handling all the cards. The idea behind this was 1) He thought I was good at it and 2) Only one person would have to file for reimbursement.

      We do not have an office manager, and I know Alison has talked about women being pegged with celebration-type tasks. I am a woman (as so many of you have rightfully guessed) and I’m afraid this falls in line with that.

      Either way, you have all inspired me to speak up. While I giggled reading the petty responses some have provided, that’s just not my style. I am letting go of my own missed card and will propose that this go back to a shared responsibility, with each person caring for the next in line (say your birthday is the 1st, you are responsible for the person on the 15th who is responsible for the person on the 30th, etc.). Or having a month-wide celebration with cupcakes (doubt we have the budget for that) or getting rid of the cards all together.

      I will also cool it on my envelope design. I don’t want anyone to feel slighted not getting BirthdayBlue’s card (eye roll) so I’ll just write their name in a fancy font and call it a day.

      I plan on providing everyone with an update when I have one!

      1. Venus*

        Not completely buried – I’m pleased to see it!

        Good luck. I’m sorry that some comments have turned into complaints about any celebrations at all, as I have found them to be fun distractions if done right (essentially they shouldn’t be mandatory). I think it’s a matter of sorting out what is best for your workplace, and with these responses you can feel confident that it’s reasonable to push back a bit!

    32. Third username*

      I would feel hurt too. I’m so sorry. I agree that it’s best to say since this has fallen onto one person, it doesn’t seem like the office really wants to celebrate birthdays in this way anymore. Let someone else start doing it if they really want to continue.

      1. jolene*

        I really wouldn’t appreciate having to do the next person in line’s birthday. Mind you, I don’t remotely care about my own being celebrated at work.

    33. Avocado Toast*

      This happened to me at my old job….4 years in a row. At first I was like “Oh, I’m the person who usually does birthdays so it makes sense that they forgot about me” but then realized that was only true for 2/4 years. That was sign 339494819 that I wasn’t appreciated and that I should look for a new job!

    34. Bazinga*

      Time to hand off this responsibility. We used to have each person bring a cake for the person whose birthday cake next. So if my birthday is Jan 10 and Sansa is Jan 25, I bring Sansa a cake. Then Sansa brings a cake for the next person, etc.
      Or have a “sunshine club” overseen by a few people. Anyone who wants to participate kicks in a couple bucks a pay. Then that’s money gets a cake and card for each birthday person. Having a club means it falls to a few people and not just you.
      I would probably say something to the person I’m closest to at work that I was hurt my birthday was missed.

    35. Jaid_Diah*

      I’d outright ask the boss if I’d been expected to get my own birthday card, because no one else seems to have been responsible for it.

    36. Smarty Boots*

      Stop being in charge of the birthdays. Tell your boss that it is taking too much time away from your work, and that it needs to be a shared task. There is no reason why each person in the office can’t take a turn at doing it. All you need is a list of the staff with birthdays (which you already have), add a column for “birthday organizer”, and assign a person to each birthday. I suggest making the next person on the list for responsible: so, B is responsible for A’s birthday, C is responsible for B’s birthday, and so on, with Z being responsible for A’s birthday. Post it in the break room. Make it big. Done.

    38. Nacho*

      Yeah, that sucks. There’s a pretty good chance that most people don’t really care about birthdays , either theirs or anybody else’s (by the time you’re an adult they stop being very important), which is why nobody paid much attention to the fact that there wasn’t a card being passed around for your birthday. Maybe talk to your boss about whether or not you need to continue with the card.

    39. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      I would just stop doing the cards without announcing it. Then if anyone asks about it you can just say “oh, I thought we weren’t doing that anymore” (since nobody did anything for your birthday).

    40. Temit*

      Don’t do it anymore – the fact that it was a shared task and devolved to one person carrying the entire burden for the team doesn’t say much for the team.

      It wasn’t an innocent oversight – it was posted in the break room for all to see. They were waiting for Someone to do it, No one did. So its No one’s fault. Let the next one pass like yours did. First one to complain, should step up for the next birthday. There is nothing to bring up or confront.

    41. Personal Best In Consecutive Days Lived*

      It sucks you got overlooked after all your efforts Birthday Blues. I am also an amateur artist with enough skill that people ask me to make birthday cards. When our office was small someone or other would ask me to do a card and everyone’s birthday was covered.
      Now that the office has trpled in size no one can remember all the birthdays and we’ve quietly phased out the cake and card thing. This went smoothly since there was never an official person in charge of birthdays.
      In your shoes I would ask my boss if I could not be the official birthday organizer anymore.
      It sounds like a lot of work for what I’m sure is no extra compensation.
      I love to draw so on my own initiative I will make a card for significant and non-annual milestones (e.g. retirement).

    42. Melba Toast*

      On the bright side, the new year has just started so this is actually good timing to cease with the whole birthdays at the office stuff. I’d combine what others have said and add something like: “With the new year beginning, why don’t we change things up with how we do birthdays?”

    43. The Messy Headed Momma*

      I am not a fan of celebrating bdays at the office BUT the one & only time I saw a process work went like this:
      Whoever just celebrated their birthday is in charge of the next person’s birthday & so on & so on. They had limits ($20 collected from the group/a cake/a card) that they all agreed upon beforehand. That way, everybody shared the work. And it was a bunch of waiters and they actually made it work!

    44. OutToSea*

      Understandable some hurt feelings around the missing of your birthday, but I think the beginning of the year is good timing to make a natural change to simply not doing it anymore. If someone questions you about it, you could say something to the tune of you just wanted to allow someone else to take lead for a change, or that you thought as a group, some other ideas would be fun to consider. Happy Belated Birthday!

    45. Workerbee*

      I’m sorry nobody thought beyond their own birthdays when yours came around, innocent-oversight or not. That sucks.

      This is one of the several reasons I pulled unofficial “birthday coordinator” away from my direct report when I inherited her. I was informed by a good friend in that department that she would always go above and beyond to make sure the birthday recipients had their card/present/decorations/cake (often at her own expense, which was reason #1 that I stopped that practice). Good Friend said that last year, when my direct report’s birthday rolled around, he noticed that nobody was doing a damn thing about it. He ended up rallying everyone and buying some things himself. If he hadn’t done that, she’d have received absolutely nothing.

      That really pissed me off. So, as we’re a multi-manager department, I informed each manager that my d.r. would no longer be handling this and it would be up to each of them if they wanted to get a card/gift for their own employee(s). They were all fine with this. Apparently some of them had been trying to stop the practice anyway, citing how it was too disruptive!

      Since then, others in our department decided to make a quarterly Food Day to celebrate birthdays, and everyone seems satisfied.

      So I too hope you feel all right about disengaging from being the office birthday person. People will either step up or it will die off in a somewhat-natural but overdue death.

    47. ENFP*

      This same thing happened to me at my previous company. So, in December, I wrote a fake-cheerful email asking who would like to take a turn as the “Birthday Fairy” in the new year, coordinating cards for the 60+ employees in our department. Guess how many takers I had?

      Seriously, don’t do this. I went to a lot of trouble and expense and no one cared. Yes, still bitter!

  2. Emma*

    Have any of you had good luck using social media management software like Hootsuite? I decided to dip my toe into the freelance modeling world about a year ago, mostly for fun, but I’d like to get more serious about it. A huge part of getting modeling jobs is having an active social media presence, which isn’t something I’m naturally very good at (I tend to scroll and lurk without posting much). I’m totally mystified by the people who seem to just breathe and accidentally end up with a zillion followers. I figured that maybe scheduling my posts and using a platform to help manage my accounts might make it easier, I’m just not sure whether it would be worth the money. Have you found that using something like Hootsuite actually made a difference in engagement or how much business you were getting?

    1. Overeducated*

      I use Hootsuite for work but i don’t think the platform itself has increased our following in any noticeable way. It’s more useful for organizing, scheduling, and tracking. But it’s very possible I’m not using it to its full capacity, I think we may use a free version (just based on the fact that my office doesn’t value social media highly) so features could be different as well.

      My one big complaint is that it doesn’t seem to allow alt text for images so our posts aren’t fully accessible.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I use it not as a way to increase my following so much as to decrease my time investment. I set all my tweets for the week or whatever in one window on the weekend (this is a terrible way to do Social Media, I do understand) so that I don’t have to be logging in as much or worrying about it.

    2. AliceBD*

      Hi! I am a professional social media marketer, but I do not maintain a personal brand myself. (People can look at the big company I work for to see my work; they don’t need to learn anything about my personal life and frankly I use up my energy making the work accounts look nice.) If you’re going to be busy during the day, using a scheduling app is definitely helpful to get posts out consistently. Part of the thought needs to be if you have time every week to sit down and set it up. It’s no good to have Hootsuite or another scheduling platform if you forget to fill it out or if you don’t engage with people asking questions or commenting or whatever.

      Now, AFAIK Hootsuite does not let you do Instagram stories. Based on a relative who is a professional model, Instagram stories are big and Instagram is the social media channel that seems most important. (She is also 18 which may have something to do with it; I don’t know if models who are 25 do as many Stories as my only contact with modeling is knowing what she’s up to.) So you will have to take that into consideration. However most of her posts on her Instagram itself are from previous modeling gigs so those are good candidates to be scheduled because on Instagram itself she is not usually using in the moment shots.

      I will say you may expect some creepy comments, depending on your age and gender, just to prepare you. My relative just turned 18 and her followers include a lot of creepy old men, IMO.

      1. Anonysand*

        +1000000

        I’m a professional social media manager and work with marketing as well, and the above is spot on. Hootsuite is great for the organizational aspect of your accounts, especially when you want to have a consistent presence across multiple platforms. The analytics aren’t bad, but not the best IMO. I don’t think you’d need the paid version to do what you need it to, as the free edition would cover your bases pretty well.

        As for getting a ton of new followers? It’s pretty hard. It takes a lot of work and a consistent presence, and as stated above, you’re definitely opening the door to some serious creeps. As for advice, there are a lot of great articles and podcasts (check out the Goal Digger podcast by Jenna Kutcher) about personal branding on social media that are super useful and can get you started on some best practices.

      3. LDP*

        As someone who also does a bit of social media for work and has a (very small) personal blog, Instagram stories are going to help you with engaging with your followers and building your audience! The main pro to stories is that they stay in chronological order, and therefore beat Instagram’s algorithm. This makes you much more visible to your followers, and you won’t end up having people only see your posts 2-3 days after you initially posted them.
        It’s been over a year since the last time I used Hootsuite, so it may have changed, but from what I remember, the scheduling tool wasn’t that great. It would just send you a reminder that you needed to post, and then you had to manually go into the Hootsuite app to get to the post and share it. You could write out the whole caption and all your hashtags ahead of time, so it was better than having to come up with that on the fly, but it was still annoying to have Saturday morning brunch interrupted by a notification that I needed to post a work Instagram. We use Sked Social now, and if you’re just looking for something for scheduling, it works a lot better than Hootsuite ever did for me, mainly because it will actually post for you. But, it only works for Instagram, so if you’re wanting to schedule posts for other platforms, this may not be the best option for you, either.

        1. Trinity Beeper*

          The scheduling tool has evolved a lot, actually! I’m only using Hootsuite for Twitter but it’s great for that. Now you can write a ton of tweets at once in a spreadsheet and have them pre-scheduled. It has its limitations though – I’m not sure how well this feature works for Instagram, for example. Also, for Twitter, you can’t schedule polls. Still, I manage about 10 different accounts, and it’s been hugely helpful for making sure they’re all posting consistently.

      4. lobsterp0t*

        Yeah my wife uses Buffer for her (one woman) business and it includes Instagram; I would definitely agree that you have to be religious about scheduling the scheduling time. She usually does a 3-6 month content plan around all her planned promotions and then does weekly top ups. Due to the nature of her business, very little of her posting is spontaneous, other than her Insta stories, which are.

    3. envirolady*

      So, Hootsuite and similar software products aren’t there to help you boost engagement themselves, they just give you the tools to make it easier for you to boost your own engagement/following–be allowing you to schedule and look at analytics. Part of my job is managing social media and I use a program called AgoraPulse, which I have liked a lot so far. It’s a lot easier to schedule posts across platforms and see a calendar of what I’ve got coming up.

      1. Anonysand*

        Can I pick your brain on AgoraPulse? I’m a SM manager and looking to switch to literally anything besides Hootsuite. I really like HeyOrca, but we’re not an agency and only need a single license. I’m desperate to find options!

        1. Curious Cat*

          I don’t use AgoraPulse, but I’m on the social team at my org and we just switched recently from Hootsuite to Falcon and we. love. it. Falcon is so easy and very user-friendly, and best of all we haven’t had any major system malfunctions like we were constantly having with Hootsuite (scheduled posts failing to post, the system crashing, accounts disconnecting for no reason). So I’m a big advocate now for Falcon!

          1. Anonysand*

            I haven’t heard of Falcon! I’m currently looking into SocialReport, mostly because it’s one of the few that has the functionality to export a *queued* content calendar for sharing outside the platform. It’s a strange need that doesn’t seem to be widely available, unfortunately.

            1. Curious Cat*

              I think you can actually do that with Falcon too :) I’ve never heard of SocialReport though, there are so many tools available on the market it’s hard to keep up with all of them

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I’m not in this world, but have heard that a shockingly large number of those accounts with huge followings are actually followed by some large percentage of bots that were paid for by the account holder. So, don’t judge yourself by them. If you want to do this, set about making your own brand on your own terms and use options for promoting your channels, don’t worry.

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        Yeah. I recently started trying to re-build my own online presence as I try to resurrect my publishing career, and I sometimes get bummed out that I have less than 1,000 Twitter followers even though I had several books published by a big publisher. Then I remind myself that it’s better to have a few hundred real followers than thousands of bots! And also, it’s probably better for my particular career to focus on writing more books rather than stressing out about that.

      2. Anon Anon Anon*

        Other things that influence your number of followers:

        – What percentage of your fan base actively uses social media

        – Promoting your stuff offline

        – Someone else helping you to promote your stuff.

        – A company is helping to promote your stuff

        You see where this is going. People who have a lot of followers often aren’t doing that alone. They’re often working with some kind of company or someone is helping to get the word out and get people talking about them. It’s really important not to neglect the offline side of things. What happens online is a reflection of what’s going on offline. You have to go out and talk to people and ask them to follow you on social media. You have to connect with people who will help get the word out, who will say positive things about you. Or even negative things – anything is better than nothing. If you’re introverted and that doesn’t come naturally, find someone who can help, whether they officially work for you or it’s a friend or family member. Once you get the ball rolling, then it becomes more a matter of just having great content that will help the word to travel farther. You can do this! It will happen!

      3. nonegiven*

        Even I get followed by bots. It just isn’t worth my time to check each follower to make sure they aren’t a bot and block them if they are.

    5. Emma*

      Thanks for all the amazing advice, everyone! I think I’m going to try to post once a day on instagram (or more, if the situation calls for it- I’m participating in a pin-up contest next weekend so I’ll likely do several posts/stories that day) and see how it goes and then maybe try the free version of hootsuite if I’m really feeling a need to schedule my posts ahead of time.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I have used a platform called “Later” that is based around Instagram. The free account lets you prepare and cue up 2 weeks of posts at a time, save captions (useful for hashtag lists), and push to FB and Twitter as well. It doesn’t auto-post, but it prompts you at your planned time, with the post ready to go.

      It’s not super powerful and doesn’t help with analytics, but that scheduling is useful.

      I’ve had the most success in increasing organic followers by actively participating in regularly scheduled hashtag chats on Twitter. But my industry is very different.

    7. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      I’ve used Buffer before! I really like the product, and even more so, they’re a great and innovative company. I recommend checking them out!

    8. pcake*

      I don’t know about social media for modeling, but we used to hire our models via Model Mayhem.

  3. Way to the Dawn*

    Hello, first time commenting but could really use some outside insight. My brother has gone through a bit of a rough patch in life and has two DUIs. But in the past year or so he has really turned a new leaf and wants to leave our hometown and work towards a career. I want to help him towards that! He helped my grandfather last year as he died of cancer, and he is interested in becoming a nurse. We know that he can’t do a paramedic or EMT route because of his DUIs, but we are getting mixed signals about the nursing route. Does anybody know if he could pursue any type of medical career with the DUIs?

    He really feels like the military is his only option, which if he wants to do that, great! But I want to show him what options he does have. If not medical, does anyone have any suggestions for a field where you don’t sit at a desk all day? He wants to be moving/active and he is very charismatic and driven.

    1. LKW*

      Can’t speak to nurse specifically, but there are a lot of health care jobs that don’t require as strict licensing and registration. Still, he’d likely have access to drugs, would that be a temptation?

      There are a lot of service jobs where you’re moving all the time including construction management (construction management as a potential education route), repair trades, forestry management, and corporate sales. If he’s charismatic and charming, sales might be a good fit although the DUIs may be slightly problematic for jobs like pharma sales where they give you a company car. Software sales might be a good fit.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        He is definitely not going to be tempted by anything, he joked that he wouldn’t even jay walk after this. I will look into your other suggestions, thank you!

        1. Yvette*

          Thing is, it is not just if he is going to be tempted, to some people multiple DUIs = substance abuse issues or possibly an addiction, that they are just the tip of a larger iceberg. So even if from a regulations standpoint they are not a deal breaker, having them come up in a background check might be problematic.

          1. Way to the Dawn*

            Yes, that is what worries me, and I feel that no matter what field he goes into it may just be a risk that someone will hang it over his head. But I don’t want him to give up finding a career, so we are just trying to find the best situation we can for him. Thanks for the advice!

            1. Yvette*

              Somethings can get expunged, but I don’t know what or how. Sorry, just realized how super unhelpful that is, but maybe someone else does?

            2. Catleesi*

              I think once you get past whether or not it will hang up licensing – the attitude about the DUIs from employers is going to vary a lot by state. I’m from Wisconsin – and for a lot of places there (sadly) having a DUI or even two is not really notable. However there are areas where people are really going to look down on it. In addition to licensing ramifications, he might want to consider regional culture in how it’s going to be perceived.

          2. Personal Best In Consecutive Days Lived*

            I was going to suggest forestry so thanks for saying that LKW. In my experience the culture of this work basically that you will be judged on your ability to do the work and absolutely nothing else, including if you’ve had DUI’s in the past.
            If he doesn’t currently have a valid driver’s license because of this it would make it harder to get a forestry job but not impossible.

    2. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      I did a quick Google search and it revealed that depending where you live, he can still take the boards as long as he has disclosed every felony and misdemeanor conviction. You want to research that with the board in your area.

      The DUIs wouldn’t keep him out of a nursing program, so he could pursue that outside of the military. I’d recommend he schools first before going into the military so he has more skills to consider upon enlistment.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        We did talk to some nursing programs and they said they would take him, we just worry about whether people would hire him after he spends all of his time to get his degree.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This. If it’s not a problem with getting licensed (RN, LPN, nurse’s aid, etc) in your state, then there are likely to be jobs that require the degree and no driving.

          2. Amy Farrah Fowler*

            This! Check your state’s laws regarding how background checks can be used in employment decisions. It may feel like a really long time, but some states, you cannot use things that are more than 5, 7, or 10 years in the past in making employment decisions.

        2. PhyllisB*

          Don’t DUI’s go off your record after a period of time if you have no more convictions? I’m thinking three years, but that may depend on your state. Depending on long a program he enters, he could have these off his record before he has to take boards. Of course he may have to tell them he got them, but if they’ve been dropped, should be less of a problem.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            I believe some states allow you to expunge them from your record but otherwise, they stay on there forever.

        3. kittymommy*

          I would also quickly caution that he may want to double check information like that with the state licensing boards, not just the schools. I have had many a friend who was told one thing my the program offices and then when they went to sit for NCLEX it turned out to be very different.

      2. Joielle*

        Even if the DUIs won’t keep him out of a nursing program, he should make absolutely sure with the licensing board that they won’t keep him from being licensed before he starts the program. I’ve run into situations with clients where they got through an entire degree in a medical field, only to discover that they were disqualified from being licensed because of past convictions. There’s not much you can do at that point, it’s just a huge waste and major disappointment (and often very expensive).

        1. Way to the Dawn*

          Yes, this is our biggest fear. We do not want him to spend money and time only to hit a road block.

    3. Joielle*

      It’ll depend on the state! Different state licensing boards have different requirements for nursing and related professions. I’d recommend that you call the state licensing board for nursing and any other health-related profession he might be interested in. I will say that I’d be surprised if a DUI was a problem for nursing unless there were significant extenuating circumstances.

      If your state has licensed drug and alcohol counselors, peer support specialists, recovery coaches, or something like that, that might be an avenue to look into. In my state, it’s not uncommon for people with addictions in their past to become counselors and help people in a similar situation.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        Thank you for the info! I had not thought about the drug and alcohol counselors. I think he would be a great recovery coach! I will pass that along to him.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Echoing, it’s so nice to see siblings taking care of each other. Thanks for brightening my day, OP.

            1. Way to the Dawn*

              Thank you both so much. You don’t know how much that means to me. 2018 was an awful year for our family but I am trying to be as supportive as I can.

      2. Sally*

        Great idea! My close friend’s niece was addicted to alcohol and doing all sorts of self-destructive things, and after she stopped drinking, she really wanted to help others in similar situations. So she went back to school, got licensed, and she is now a counselor, and she’s very happy doing that.

        1. PhyllisB*

          My oldest daughter was addicted to meth (three years sober now!!) After she got through with her rehab she started working for a detox center, and now she’s in marketing recruiting patients for a recovery center in her state, and she’s working toward credentials to be a counselor.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Adding: Check the window of time for the look back. It could be in five years or whatever this will be even less of a problem.
        So worst case scenario perhaps they say “no how, no way”. Ask them how far back they look for things like this. At what point does a DUI become a non-issue? It could be by the time he gets a degree and/or does entry level work adjacent to nursing, enough time may have passed that he will be okay.

        I don’t know if he had probation. But if he had a probation officer who can speak highly of his progress this might be a game changer also.

    4. Gimme Shelter*

      My daughter was recently accepted into the nursing program at her university and as a result, was fingerprinted and subjected to a background check. Not sure this applies everywhere, but seems to be par-for-the-course in Michigan. Has he entertained the idea of becoming a CENA first, and then working his way into nursing via that route? Best of luck to your brother!

        1. Gimme Shelter*

          You’re welcome! Here’s hoping that 2019 is better for him and that he’ll find a career he enjoys.

      2. Half-Caf Latte*

        Background checks are standard in nursing programs. Schools generally have a compliance office/officer, who ensures all students get background checks, vaccination records, drug screenings, etc in annually.

        Students may go to a variety of hospitals for clinical rotations, and there may be different requirements at each. The compliance office compiles this and ensures students can attend their placements.

        Once your brother gets to the point of selecting schools to apply to, I’d ask to talk to their compliance person.

    5. Venus*

      The military is obviously a very different option, however I wanted to mention that they have nurses. It might be worthwhile to talk with recruiters to confirm whether or not they needed nurses right now, and the educational expectations (i.e. do you do the degree ahead of time? will the military pay for it?)

      1. Yvette*

        From what I have heard form people, nursing, EMTs, Firefighters, Law Enforcement etc. with a military background in the field are a considered desirable in the civilian world.

        1. Liet-Kinda*

          There is, however, a very large number of people ending military service with those qualifications, so it’s not a silver bullet.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I know of someone who had felony charges and was accepted as a firefighter. He worked his way up the ranks and is very well respected. One example is not a pattern but it is inspiration.

      2. Way to the Dawn*

        Yes I think if he does head to the military that having those right questions with the recruiter is important. Thank you!

        1. Veteran of the Wild Blue Yonder*

          The challenge will be the (2) DUI’s – severity of the offense, duration between the offense.

          Right now the Army and Air Force are not meeting their enlisted recruiting requirements which may offer some leniency but legal issues are less flexible. Officers are accessed through a different route and recruiter system. Recruiters in the retail centers typically focus on enlisted. So when you go to them, they’re going to focus on enlisted fields, not wanting to pass up the chance to recruit. If you want an officer recruiter, you must be firm in asking for that person who might be in a completely different office/city due to the region they cover.

          – A nurse is a commissioned field which means they must have a college degree to apply for and pass commissioning board then go to COT (Commissioned Officer Training) for their respective branch.

          – If the brother is not a college graduate they can 1) become a graduate and then apply or 2) enlist in a medical field, obtain their college degree and then apply for commissioning.

          – If the ‘only’ route presented by the recruiter is that they can’t offer a specific enlisted MOS/AFSC due to the legal issues, but other MOS/AFSC’s are available (as every job in the military has different type of accession requirements) then ask the brother if he’s willing to enter in one career field to get in, and then change at a later date. All fields have a different contract requirements so it may be 4-years before he can change over, but by that time he might have specific education requirements completed for his next step – either enlisted or officer medical fields.

          Air Force: Nurse Enlisted Commissioning Program, or NECP. Enlisted Airmen are selected for the program attend college full-time at an accredited college while remaining on active duty. It is a different program than Direct Enlistment Commissioning program, which lets Airmen who already have a nursing degree and have passed the licensure exam to commission into the Nurse Corps. https://www.afpc.af.mil/Assignment/Enlisted_Commission/

          Army PRACTICAL NURSING SPECIALIST (68C) is an enlisted route The practical nursing specialist supervises or performs preventive, therapeutic, and emergency nursing care procedures under the supervision of a physician, nurse or NCO. https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/medical-and-emergency/practical-nursing-specialist.html

          Good luck

          2. Veteran of the Wild Blue Yonder*

            I was waiting for this to load to add in the Navy link and ‘how to go to a recruiter’

            I do not recommend going into a recruiters office without any type of research. Use the military branches respective recruiting websites to learn the fields (realize recruiters go to school to learn about all the fields and how to sell the military, but they didn’t work in those fields) and Military.com forums for more information (there’s a lot of ‘been there done that’ and ‘back in the day’ oldies there who aren’t close to the current operations). Even seek out some social media channels and YouTube as well. I took both my brothers to their recruiters and I did a lot of research on my Air Force career field choices before I went (I was a college graduate who considered enlisted and officer).

            Navy The Medical Enlisted Commissioning Program (MECP) https://www.navyadvancement.com/enlisted-officer/medical-enlisted-commissioning.php

            The military is a good option to reinvent oneself. Just know it’s a rigid lifestyle with a lot of oversight. As time goes on he will be given many opportunities to lead, manage and grow. It’s a great life.

            1. Venus*

              A lot of useful info, thank you! My knowledge is not US, so I didn’t feel qualified to provide details. You raise a good point that a lot of information can be found on websites (most specifically the military’s) rather than recruiting offices. I only wanted to ensure that the OP knows that nursing and the military aren’t necessarily two different options, and I appreciate your adding to this.

    6. SJ*

      One thing to consider…nursing is a VERY valuable profession. Nursing will often take people who may have trouble with other fields. Definitely worth pursuing. Also might want to consider talking to recruiters about joining the military to become a nurse (they pay your way through school for a few years commitment). Good luck!

      1. Liet-Kinda*

        The military also has a need for so-called “bioenvironmental” specialists (which is stuff like radiation, industrial hygiene, nuclear/chemical/biological hazards, lead paint, asbestos mitigation, and other OSHA and environmental requirements), and hoooooly crap can you parlay that into a lucrative consulting practice on the flipside.

    8. dawbs*

      Tangential, but volunteer work might give him the references he needs for somne if this too.

      I work in a museum, and I do run background checks on ALL volunteers (even if you’re only there a day), and they can keep someone from volunteering, but we try to be accessible and a part of our community- which means it’s, sometimes someone with a DUI can volunteer for me, and yes I’ll sign off on community service hours, and yrs, I’ll be a reference/ write a letter of rec.

      Since hospitals have programs, call and see, it might give him a foot in the door

      1. OhNo*

        This is a good point, because having recent and glowing references can help overshadow older issues when he starts job hunting. As a bonus, as a volunteer in a hospital, he’d be able to see what kind of work different medical professionals do up-close and have a better idea of what career path or specialty he might be interested in.

    9. Emmie*

      I have experience with occupational licenses and criminal offenses which may impact employment. I’m excited for your brother, and that he’s found a path to sobriety. I recommend he do these things:
      * Every state has regulations explaining offenses that impact employment, and they are slightly different in each state. Locate the licensing board’s website and search for that information. If it is not there, he may find that information in statute.
      * DUIs are pretty common unfortunately. It would help a person’s application to show a record of compliance with laws; that there’s been a time lapse between the DUIs and his application; a steady employment history; have proof of his treatment for drinking such as AA or counseling; and show a period of time as a sober person. This will be especially important if he blew high, and / or with his multiple DUIs.
      * If he attends nursing school, I recommend that he submits his license application as early as possible. Can he apply while working on his pre-reqs? This allows the nursing board to review complicated cases, and shows that your brother is proactive.
      * He may wish to call the nursing board, or a local attorney about his licensing chances.
      * He may be approved with sanctions / monitoring, or delayed slightly in his application. Since I do not know the nature of your brother’s offenses or how high he blew, I cannot say that he would be approved.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        Thank you so much for the info. This is all so helpful to know before he starts applying to schools.

        1. Emmie*

          You are very welcome. I should add the obvious: disclose all required info on the application such as his convictions. I recommend that he request copies for himself of his fingerprint based state police background check (in all states he’s lived), his fingerprint based FBI check, and his driving record (in all stated he’s lived.). This allows him to see what shows up on his record, so he can disclose the exact convictions on his application.

      2. Half-Caf Latte*

        He won’t be able to submit an application prior to graduating from nursing school. The school sends proof of graduation to the NCSBN, which administers the NCLEX (licensing exam in the US), which generates the ATT (authorization to test). That inital test is linked to a license application in one state.

        Nothing can be finalized until the school submits the paperwork, and the paperwork has to be perfect on the school’s end. Any hiccups delay testing.

        Source: My own ATT was delayed by my school back in the day, and now the course I teach is the last set of grades the office of student records needs to initiate the process. I am expected to get grades in toot sweet.

    10. Armchair Analyst*

      Could he be a 9-1-1 dispatcher in the call center? I feel like this might be a great start into the field?

    11. Half-Caf Latte*

      Anecdata time:

      I was a new assistant nurse manager, and we were interviewing a candidate for a nursing job. This person had come to nursing in their 30s, and had prior work experience in an unrelated field. We asked about the criminal history (believe it was misdemeanor but can’t recall) they indicated on the application, and they had a really great response about a DUI from their early twenties, and said that they were young and stupid, and really regretted the action and couldn’t change the past but had grown from it. I had no real hiring experience and didn’t know how to weight this, but my wonderful manager was pretty clear that one mistake should not hinder the rest of someone’s life.

      This person was a great nurse, and a really great addition to our team. My manager made the right call to hire them.

      All that said, you are going to have managers who are going to see this as a barrier and not want to deal with the perceived increased potential for drug diversion, so I think you are right to be at least considering the implications. My hunch is that psych/mental health nursing might be more sensitive to the realities of addiction, and may be an avenue for him. Something like 1% of all nurses are in mental health specialties, but there’s a real need for more nurses in those areas.

      A few more thoughts:

      education First, the field as a whole is really moving towards the Bachelors of Science in Nursing (BSN) as the entry-level degree. This is happening faster in some pockets of the country than others, driven by large academic medical centers. In my neck of the woods, more or less every hospital require a BSN as an entry to practice, and it’s absolutely required at all of the prestige/higher paying organizations. In this town, I would tell someone thinking of going into nursing that they needed to only look at the BSN programs.* If your brother can find work as an ADN at a hospital that provides tuition support to return for a BSN, that’s often a more economical solution if those programs are offered in your area, and hospitals regularly hire ADNs.

      Substance Abuse Programs for RNs Many states have programs that enroll currently practicing nurses into a monitoring/rehabilitation program, which allows them to continue practicing and avoid discipline by the board and loss of licensure. Two examples are the Wisconsin Professional Assistance Procedure (https://dsps.wi.gov/Pages/SelfService/ProfessionalAssistanceProcedure.aspx) and New Jersey’s RAMP (https://njsna.org/ramp/about-ramp/). I’d encourage you to contact the board and the state nurses’ association where your brother is looking to be located, and find out if there is a similar program. While he wouldn’t be eligible to participate since these are geared towards licensed individuals, I imagine they could provide you with a lot of guidance and insight.

      Tobacco use Is your brother a tobacco user? I ask because in my clinical experience, there are more smokers in the recovery community than the general population. Again, this is a regional difference, but around here all of the major hospital employers are tobacco free, and require all new hires (not just nurses) to be non-tobacco users. To be clear, this doesn’t mean “I don’t smoke at work”, this means completely tobacco free for the last 12 months. More and more employers are setting this standard, and once one health system in an area enacts it, the rest follow, in my experience.

      *Yes, these are more costly/time intensive than the ADN programs, and harder to get into. I fully recognize that that’s a barrier for many folks, especially non-traditional students. The reality is that the job market around here is much stronger for BSNs, and I have capital F Feelings about the professional respect and autonomy of nurses and how those are influenced by the educational entry to practice requirements as compared to our interprofessional peers. There are areas of the country where this is not yet the case, but the national trend is that the BSN is becoming more common, and the ADN less so.

      1. Way to the Dawn*

        Thank you so much for all of that information! My mother is an LPN and she also agreed with him getting a BSN if he went into the field. I do really feel that with his passion and determination he would be an excellent nurse – I just hope someone like your manager gives him a chance!

    12. Mia2019*

      I don’t do hiring for nurses, but I do insurance panel credentialing in a healthcare field. A DUI would never be a non issue for us, but it doesn’t mean a deal breaker. If a candidate disclosed a DUI, we would ask for more information. Basically to see it’s been “dealt with”, it it an ongoing problem? Was treatment sought? Is the client taking responsibility and moving forward? Was it very recent or a while back? Many people in the mental health field that work with addiction come from an addiction background, so it’s not uncommon. What’s most important is to never hide it or down play it. That is always a red flag. I agree with other who said to check directly with the licensing board. Talk to a person if you can, don’t just read the website. Often the regulations can be convoluted, dense and hard to understand if you aren’t super familiar with them.

    13. Tigger*

      My Boyfriend is in the same boat as your brother (He has one DUI). He can 100% take classes to be an EMT. My boyfriend got his EMT certificate last October, is working as a ski patrol medic on the weekends and a plasma collection center during the week. A lot of those medical skills can translate into non EMT roles.

      He talked to a lawyer up here in MN and they told him once his probation ends in 2 years he can work on an ambulance and has a “standing” offer from a healthcare system that really likes him but couldn’t hire him because of the driving record.

    14. chi chan*

      I have some suggestions. A lot of people only think of doctors and nurses but actually there are a lot of allied professions supporting patients. Speech therapist, audiologist, perfusionist, physical therapist, occupational therapist, medical technologist, clincial psychologist. Some of these might have less strict requirements because you are not exposed to drugs in them.

    15. chi chan*

      I have some suggestions. A lot of people only think of doctors and nurses but there are a lot of allied professions supporting patients. Speech therapist, physical therapist, occupational therapist, perfusionist, medical technologist, audiologist.

    16. JustAskingForAFriend*

      This was recently on The Indicator by Planet Money (an NPR podcast). It was talking about a program that helps nurses find jobs specifically after they’d recovered from opioid addition. I know that’s not exactly the same but maybe that will help. The org that helped them was called Parkdale Center for Professionals and I think they were in Cali. Here is the full transcript and a link:

      https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=680537528

    17. JustAskingForAFriend*

      Planet Money Indicator (NPR) just did a podcast on this. I can’t post the link I suppose because of it being a link, but google Planet Money Indiator of the Year Opioids and you should find it.

      It talks about a guy who was a nurse, developed an opioid addiction, and couldn’t get hired again until he found an organization that specifically helps people with that type of role after an addiction or similar type situation. I think there are definitely programs that want to give people a little help to work through the red tape.

    18. FridayFeels*

      I work with people who have criminal convictions, so I see this every day and your brother is definitely not alone! It is a possible issue for employment, as well as healthcare licensing, but he shouldn’t get discouraged! Much depends on your state laws, the circumstances of the convictions, and (of course) a given employer’s policies. I would highly recommend contacting a lawyer with a specialty in this area to see what his legal options are, and what the specific concerns might be about background checks and licensing in your state. (Local legal aids and your state’s bar association are a good place to start if he doesn’t have the resources to consult a private attorney.)

    19. CupcakeCounter*

      My BIL got one and had no problem getting a new job because of several factors:
      -he was very forthright about it in all interviews, including the circumstances leading up to it
      -he admitted his guilt and attended all court mandated driving, counseling, etc…sessions with 100% attendance
      -had changed several significant things about his life that show read as remorse (which he has even though he didn’t hurt anyone or cause any damage but knows he could have)
      -has continued to stay active in AA and is working to become a sponsor

      He doesn’t work in the medical field but we live in a VERY conservative area.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        he should also look into positions at in-patient rehab centers – they are well known for giving opportunities to people who have gone through addition/gotten in trouble for drug or alcohol related incidents.

    20. Way to the Dawn*

      I wanted to comment all one last time to sincerely thank every single one of you for responding. My mother called today saying how upset my brother was when he found out today that he couldn’t be an EMT. When I told her about all the information that you all gave me, she cried. Hopefully I can use all of the information that you have given me to give my brother some hope and an idea of all of the opportunities that he has. Thank you!

    21. Temit*

      there are other allied healthcare professions he might consider – Radiology Tech, Nuclear Medicine, Respiratory Tech (huge growth area). These are unspoken heroes in healthcare who have just as much passion for patient care. In terms of working in an urgent care/oncall area, as long as he can get to the healthcare facility within 30 minutes his DUIs wouldn’t be an issue.

  4. Sphinx Programmer*

    What are good sites for practicing programming questions and brushing up on skills? Old Job had me juggling complex projects in multiple languages simultaneously. Current Job has devolved into do simplistic tasks in one language and I feel like all my skills and knowledge have been draining away over the past couple years. I’d like my next job to be more like Old Job, but I need to be comfortable in various languages again.

    So far I’ve started with Codility’s exercises since you can use any language. What other sites have you found useful for getting interview ready or just for staying current in a language?

    Languages to brush up on: C#, Python, C++, SQL, Angular2/Javascript

    1. ArtK*

      No answer for you, but I’ll be following this with interest. My job is very constrained in technology and my skills are ossifying. Plus, there are lots of new technologies that I can’t get experience with, but are absolute requirements for many positions. For instance, I’ve dabbled, briefly, with Angular but need a lot more practice.

      1. Penny Hartz*

        Same here. I’m looking to move up professionally to where I was before a physical move took me down a notch, career-wise, but at this (admittedly, very nice) job, we have a very bright line dividing us “content providers/creatives” from the digital team, and every position description for what I want to do is looking for experience in both. I HAD experience in the software/deployment side of things, but that was in my last job and the technology changes SO fast.

        I’m making it a resolution to do as much free, online training as I can in various platforms so instead of saying “Well, I proof emails and newsletters in Marketo” I can at least say I know how Marketo works.

    2. Matty*

      https://codesignal.com/

      I used to use this (with Python) when it was CodeFights and they kept it fun. The challenges were not too long, so you don’t have to devote a day to doing a challenge. They are explicitly doing interview prep now, and are using this as a way for companies to find candidates, so you may want to look at the privacy terms, etc.

    3. Rachel*

      Code-academy is a pretty good source – especially for brushing up or basic learning. Best of luck!

      1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

        I’ve been using Codecademy to learn SQL and have been extremely pleased!

    4. Mrs. Badcrumble*

      I like CodeAcademy and Coursera — CodeAcademy is extra good if you’re just starting up a language, I can’t speak to their more advanced stuff because that’s not free. Coursera can be great because you can work on your skills in a context. Some courses are still free, but some now require a fee, so YMMV. Caveats — I was only looking into Python and R.

    5. Khaz*

      Codecademy is always good for brushing up on the basics, but if these are languages you already know I’d personally recommend just setting up a compiler for yourself and running through some super simple (1-2 hours a piece) projects in each language; you’d be surprised at how much comes back to you when you start using them and trying to think of how to do something again.

    6. Phoenix Programmer*

      Hello Spynx!

      I find that it’s actually really easy to get back into the language when you have been off it several years. It had been years since I needed to do VBA and after a fuzzy couple of hours I was impressed with how quickly I was like – oh yeah it’s ‘For each i from 2 to n’

      After all coding is are more so understanding the logic and flow of machine steps. Each language has it’s own Grammer but it’s easy to pick that back up after being away a while.

    7. Dan*

      You might enjoy Advent of Code – it just finished (runs through dec 25th, obv), but the problems are still up, and they’re a little more story-ish than stuff like hackerrank. If you want to do more serious study, especially if you want a job at a FAANG-type company, you should get a copy of Cracking the Coding Interview and do as many of the exercises as you can.

    8. spock*

      Last time I was going through interviews, all the prep in the world didn’t get me as far as just going in and doing those first few coding interviews. You should definitely study if you feel like you’re rusty, doing algo questions was really helpful for me when interviewing after a year of code-free liberal arts courses in college, but I wouldn’t be disappointed if it still takes a few interviews to get all the way back up to speed. Not a reflection of our skills at all, interviews are just a really weird environment for solving odd programming problems that often aren’t representative of the job.

    9. olusatrum*

      After doing a code challenge on HackerRank as part of an interview process, I’ve been using it on my own to learn. My skill level is pretty basic so I’m not sure how well it scales up to people who actually code for a living, but thought I’d mention it. Unfortunately I think you have to do the challenges in the languages they say, but it has challenges in most of the languages you listed, plus some general stuff like algorithms and data structures

    10. Aphrael*

      I found the book “Cracking the Coding Interview” has (more general) helpful practice problems.

      I personally practice by answering StackOverflow questions – they tend to be more real-world and interesting niche problems than most textbooks.

    11. CoffeeOnMyMind*

      CodeSchool has excellent mini lessons for all coding languages and skill levels. A fun way to learn is through CodeCombat, where you fight your way through trolls and dungeons as you learn code. It’s geared towards kids, but it’s super fun!

    12. Kes*

      Besides some ones people have already mentioned like Hackerrank and Codecademy, I know Project Euler also has a series of problems that I think you can solve in various languages.

      Another thing to consider is that if you want to brush up on a framework like Angular or React, you might want to come up with an idea for just a very basic type of website with a few features, and then build a simple version of that in whatever framework you have in mind (this will also mean you’re working with HTML/CSS/Javascript/Typescript in a more ‘real’ context)

      1. The Grammarian*

        Same–I’m commenting to follow. As a technical writer, I feel like I need to keep learning to stay relevant.

    16. SusanIvanova*

      When I needed ObjectiveC, I found an interesting open source app that didn’t have a Mac version and ported it. It’s in the App Store and I’m in Apple, so it worked ;)

      And related – anyone who wants to get into tech writing, open source projects are *always* in search of someone to take that on.

    17. Nesprin*

      Euler problems! A set of computer science type programs designed to get you algorithm feet wet.

  5. Susan K*

    I am a Teapot Handle Analyst, and one of my coworkers, Fergus, recently got promoted from Teapot Spout Analyst to Teapot Assembly Manager (in the same department, but not my direct manager), and now I am replacing him as Teapot Spout Analyst.

    Fergus has been severely neglecting his job for years. He left me a 4-foot-long file drawer jam-packed full of spout inspection reports, spout repair records, spout performance tests, and other paperwork that needs to be reviewed, scanned, and electronically filed (these are official records that we are legally required to retain for a certain number of years).

    Each Teapot Analyst is supposed to review all data in the database related to our component at least weekly and mark it as reviewed. We make sure all the required measurements were obtained, entered correctly, within tolerance, corrections made for measurements out of tolerance, and look for indications of recurring problems. Fergus hasn’t reviewed anything in 3 months, and before that, only sporadically. 3-4 times per year, he would review the first page of data but not the other 5-10 pages since the last time he reviewed data.

    As a manager, Fergus now has access to reassign projects in the tracking software without asking/telling me or my manager. He was given 2 to 4 months to complete most of these projects, and he has been reassigning them to me, unstarted, just before the deadlines. I went on vacation for a week, and while I was gone, he reassigned 5 projects that were due the day after I got back from vacation.

    Ok, now for my question: how should I approach my manager about all of this? I don’t think my manager has ANY idea about the sorry state in which Fergus left the spouts program, and I don’t think he would be cool with Fergus screwing me over like this. The problem is, Fergus is a really charming guy and has convinced my manager and grand-boss that he was an awesome Teapot Analyst (hence the promotion). He is a very smooth talker and can talk his way out of anything. Plus, nobody in management has any background in spouts, which is why they’ve simply trusted him to do his job without really checking up on him.

    If I go to my manager with a list of things Fergus has neglected, I suspect my manager will ask Fergus about it and he will convince my manager that I’m blowing everything way out of proportion; he just left me a few things and they’re all easy; X, Y, Z aren’t done because someone else was supposed to do them, etc. I have a sinking feeling that no matter what I say, Fergus is going to come out smelling like roses and I’ll look like a lazy, whining, slacker trying to blame my incompetence on Fergus. But I’m afraid if I’m too coy about it and just frame it as needing help with my workload or not being able to meet the impossible deadlines, it will just look like I can’t handle my job.

    1. Dasein9*

      Ugh! I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

      I would gather the documentation for all this neglected stuff and ask to meet with my boss for the purpose of clarifying my priorities and processes so as to avoid missed deadlines. Asking your supervisor how to deal with this still takes responsibility for it instead of slacking or whining, but also gives the supervisor a chance to see that you’re being given impossible tasks.

      1. erynlibrarian*

        I love this answer. You may not even have to mention Fergus’ name at all in the conversation. Just frame it as an ask for help prioritizing the work.

        1. Rachel*

          You might also see if your software shows when things were re-assigned, or if you get email confirmations of when they were re-assigned to you.

          “Hi Boss, I was out on vacation from XX-YY. When I returned, I was catching up on emails and noticed that I’ve been assigned A-F with deadlines rapidly approaching! Is there a specific reason these were shifted to me? Can we assess the current state of these items together? and prioritized? Can they be distributed in order to maintain the listed deadline?

          1. valentine*

            When you sit down with your manager, mention the 4-foot drawer and ask whether Fergus is meant to finish his tasks or whether they can be redistributed among various people, instead of him assigning them to you last-minute (especially whilst you’re away!). Don’t just accept that you have to take up Fergus’s slack. Presumably you’re having to neglect your own paperwork to do his.

            The bigger problem is the lack of oversight. No one was checking in on Fergus, yet they promoted him. No one knows what he’s doing to you and your colleagues are dumping on you when they could’ve alerted someone to Fergus’s neglect ages ago. (Perhaps they did, but, again, it’s management’s to solve.) If they don’t right this ship for you, consider whether you want to stay there. Maybe any position where you’re not cleaning up after Fergus at his direction is preferable to this, even if you stay with the company.

          2. TooTiredToThink*

            Yep; and if there is no history that shows when tasks were re-assigned; I would start printing/screen shot each day to show that items are being assigned last minute.

        2. CM*

          +1 to all of this.

          OP — you know the reason why Fergus is assigning you projects at the last minute and why he didn’t do half of his job while he was there. He’s a lazy jerk. And you want other people to know he’s a lazy jerk. And your temptation is to TELL THEM he’s a lazy jerk. But don’t. Instead, describe what’s happening without assigning any explanation to it. “Gosh, I keep getting last minute assignments for projects I don’t have time to complete. What should we do about that?”

          They’ll figure it out or they won’t. But hopefully they’ll stop the last minute projects from coming.

      2. Venus*

        Yes, this is a good way to phrase it! I would also be tempted to say something like “The records for Spouts have been done way X (based on documentation A,B, and C), although I’m used to doing them for Handles in way Y. How would you prefer that I do them in future?”

        1. designbot*

          “Would you like me to maintain the paper records system for spouts? We’d already gone digital in Handles.”
          Lol.

    2. Four lights*

      It might help to be very specific. Maybe you can make a spreadsheet re the status of the various projects/reports so that you have a list of each one, when it was created, when any work if any, may have been done on it.

    3. Auburn*

      With someone like that I suspect you aren’t even seeing the worst of it. You’ve probably only scratched the surface of the neglect. Yikes. You should definitely go to your boss and you should be ready for blowback from Fergus. Be methodical. Have a list of all unfinished work. And evidence of all the neglected paperwork. Don’t diminish and be very direct. Just make
      It clear you are not trying to get him in trouble you are concerned about making sure all of this legally required paperwork is complete due to the potential liability to the company.

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, I’m sure I’m going to keep finding more and more problems. I brought up spout issues with Fergus when I was a Teapot Maker and he ignored them, and he did the same to the other Teapot Makers. Now the Teapot Makers are coming to me with all of the issues Fergus ignored because they know I’ll actually fix them, but it’s going to be a long time before I can catch up.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Can you ask them to make those requests via email and confirm when they previously submitted them? That way you would have some additional evidence to show your supervisor of the nature and timecale of the issues.

    4. StressedButOkay*

      Document, document, document. Even if Fergus wasn’t a smooth talker, having as much proof as you can before going to your manager is the way to go. If he’s reassigning items he failed to do to you through the tracking software, is there any way of highlighting in the tracker the original due date and the original person assigned?

      If you still have that giant drawer to go through, I would chronicle each one (depending on how worried you are, you could go as far as scanning in parts/all that show that Fergus left them), as well.

      1. Susan K*

        Yes, the tracking software has these details in the audit trail, so I can prove that Fergus was assigned something on November 4 with a due date of January 4 and reassigned it to me on December 28. There is an automatic report that gets sent to everyone in the department every day, and things that are due in less than a week show up in red. There have been an awful lot of red assignments with my name lately, but the report doesn’t show that it was already red when it was assigned to me, and I’m sure my manager isn’t comparing previous reports to see that all my red assignments were assigned to Fergus last week. It probably just looks like I am waiting until the last minute to get my work done! I bet if my manager asks Fergus, he will say that he told me about these projects weeks ago but just remembered to reassign them.

        1. TootsNYC*

          if they weren’t assigned to you in the system, they weren’t assigned to you.

          Sort of, “if it isn’t written down, it didn’t happen”

        2. Bagpuss*

          DO you have access to older reports? i.e. can you show that until Fergus got promoted and stopped being responsible for these tasks, your records show that you deal with tasks promptly and are not in the habit of leaving things until the last minute?
          Are there policies bout how tasks should be reassigned?i.e. IF Fergus had verbally told you and failed to update the system, would that be a breach of the procedure? I think being able to show both that your normal record is to deal with things promptly and in time, AND that the red tasks were assigned to you at the last minute and when they were already ‘red’ would suggest to any reasonable manager that the problem was unlikely to be with you!
          Particularly if it is backed up by records from other employees that they have jobs backed up which Fergus failed to address but which you are dealing with or have dealt with.

          1. Susan K*

            Yes, I have the older reports, and the software also has an audit trail that shows when projects are assigned or reassigned. I’m sure Fergus can come up with a plausible story about how he verbally told me about it long before he reassigned it in the software, or it was almost done when he reassigned it to me, or it was easy and should have only taken me an hour, etc. But the software doesn’t lie (unlike Fergus, haha), so I can at least prove that he waited until the last minute to reassign to me. I’ve only been a Teapot Analyst for about 6 months, so I don’t have that long of a track record to show that I’m normally more on top of things.

            I don’t know of any policies about how tasks are reassigned; it’s generally at the managers’ discretion. That’s why the managers have the ability in the software to assign or reassign projects. I’m sure my manager is fine with Fergus reassigning spout projects to me, since that is now my job. The issue is just that he should have finished or been working on many of these projects before he got promoted and he wasn’t, so now I have 10% of the time to do 100% of the project, all while catching up on the files, data review, etc. that he was neglecting.

            1. Bawab*

              I would recommend heading off his lies. When you talk to your supervisor about being reassigned his tasks, you could always say something like “it would be easier to manage the addition to my workload if I were given a heads up on these tasks, but I’m finding out about them when they’re reassigned in the system.” And ” They’re also coming to me unstarted, so I’m having to scramble to complete them from scratch days before they’re due.”

              Do the same thing with your other concerns about his excuses. Mention them when discussing the issue with your supervisor so that they come across as the obvious lie they are when he uses them.

    5. Always Tired*

      Is there any “paper trail” in the system or otherwise that would show when these things were reassigned and by whom? How are you alerted to the reassignments? Might help to take that or any other “evidence” you can collect to a conversation with your manager.

      Also, are any of these deadlines adjustable? If so, might be worth a direct conversation with Fergus about that if he’s the one managing that aspect of the system.

      1. Susan K*

        Yes, there is an audit trail in the tracking software that shows when assignments were made or changed — if you go looking for it. The main project screen doesn’t show any difference between something that was assigned to me all along or reassigned the day before it was due. I don’t get any alerts for reassignments — they just show up on the assignment list on my dashboard. It sucks because my list gets longer every time I log in!

        1. Anonymous Penguin*

          Can you email Fergus and make it explicit that he didn’t notify you of these before vacation, and that you would like for him to email you any time he assigns something to you? If you can get him to admit in writing that he didn’t notify that would be awesome, but at least you can have it down that he’s either not following procedure by not notifying you or reassigning things last minute.

    6. Drax*

      I’d word this more like “Boss, I’ve been having an issue with Fergus assigning me last minute projects while I’m trying to sort out the backlog I inherited. I’m not sure how to prioritize this as it’s an overwhelming amount, should my focus be on the new or the old”. Make sure you are documenting everything before that conversation (unless there are time stamps that can back up what you are saying)

      That way it looks like your asking for guidance instead of saying Fergus is a hot mess. It’s easier to have someone dig in and make their own conclusions then trying to convince someone that the golden boy is bad at his job. I also say this assuming that you are sure it would come back on you if you pointed these out as errors.

    7. LKW*

      Use facts vs charm. If you have reports that should have been filed moths ago, give your boss a very clear understanding of how big the problem is, and how long it’s been going on. Go through the four foot file and then summarize with specific, relevant information.
      How many files remain open
      How many files remain open that are between 3-4 months overdue; 5- 7 months overdue; 8-10 months overdue; 11-12 months overdue, older than 1 year.
      Of these reports, how many indicate that there was a problem? of these reports that indicate there was a problem, how many indicate there was a recurring problem? How long ago would this recurring problem been identified if it had been reported on time (what risk has the business been carrying unknowingly).
      How much time is it going to take for you to close the reports and determine the scope of the problems identified and trace back for recurring problems?

      As for the new assignments, is there an audit trail that shows when something was assigned? If so, you can show that something was assigned when you were out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, this. Just give the facts.
        IRL, I found myself with boxes of files. Each “file” was folded in a trifold and stapled closed. There were many boxes. Once I removed the staples and unfolded the papers and put in order by year, the papers filled NINE filing cabinet drawers and covered decades of work. I would estimate each file drawer contains 400-500 files. This is conservative it could be more than that. To clean one drawer will take several months given my givens.

        Notice here I just related a disaster story and did not name any names. I did not say how this mess came into being, I just stated what I found. I also just subtly said, “It will take years to clean this up.” One would arrive at the conclusion by multiplying nine drawers times several months and see, yep, this will take years to fix.

        My boss is very aware of dates. She knows what work predates my work. When we dig into these files she can glance at the date and know instantly that I had nothing to do with the condition the file is in.

        Loop your boss in ASAP. This guy is basically giving you work that he failed to do. He is asking (demanding) that you cover it up for him. Refuse to play along. First, only your boss can assign you work. Second, this may not be your boss’ priority at the moment. Third, there may be other things going on and your boss may very well be aware of stuff that you don’t even know about.

        You saw how I measured my problem by the file cabinet drawer full. Find a quick way of measuring what is there. This could be by projecting out how many reports should have been done. I was able to deduce that each of the files from my setting contained NOT less than 6 errors and perhaps more. So if one multiplies this out I need to fix thousand and thousands of errors. Hopefully, I will be reincarnated so I can finish this in my next life.

        If you can, print out reports that show incomplete reporting. Make sure it has the date of printing on it. If this not possible take screen shots or something to show what is missing. Definitely save his emails asking you to do the work he should have done.

        Stand up for you. Yes, it’s exhausting. Make yourself stick to reporting facts. Instead of saying, “Bob did not do the October report and now I have to do it.” say, “The October report was not done, so do you want me do to it, Boss?” (Just an example of wording, I understand your problem is bigger than just the “October report”.)

        Overall pattern: “Boss, I have X problem. How do you want me to handle it?”

    8. Snubble*

      You can definitely say something about the projects being transferred over to you last minute. Even if your manager won’t want to hear the full story of the state Fergus left the database and filing in, assigning you work that he must have known about for months, which he could have transferred to you weeks ago, the day before the deadline, is something they should want to correct. It’s totally reasonable to bring up the last-minute projects and ask that they have a word with Fergus about assigning work in good time.
      I’d also make – even just for myself – a short writeup of the state things are in right now. Estimates of file numbers and quantities, number of pages of data to review, scanning to be done, and so on. And track progress through that catch-up work. You can use that when you come to performance reviews and planning meetings. Which is pretty much the ist of things Fergus has neglected, but phrased as “here are my current tasks and projects” instead of “here’s the evidence”.

      1. Susan K*

        Thanks, that’s a good idea to track my progress on the catchup work. It’s going to take me a lot of time and effort just to get caught up on the backlog, and more work is going to be coming in all the while, so it might be good to have something to show for the rate at which I’m clearing the backlog.

        1. TechWorker*

          Definitely definitely loop your manager into all of this. They need to know what the workload is (and who knows, maybe some of the projects are less important than you fear, maybe not).

          We refer to stuff that hasn’t been done but should have been as ‘debt’ – so when you’re giving your boss estimates that might be useful terminology? (Or at least useful to split things up between what’s new vs what’s old).

          Also, Fergus is a prick. I’ve inherited a project which is not exactly in an ideal state and the backlog is bigger than the number of people… some of the stuff the previous manager did was a bit neglectful but sounds like absolutely nothing compared to Fergus neglect!

        2. Blue_eyes*

          Definitely record the rate at which you’re clearing the backlog. That will show progress, and help make your case that the backlog was not caused by your negligence. And also make your boss aware of it now, which shows that you are being proactive and a conscientious worker. If the backlog is that large, and the filings are required by law, your company may even want to loan someone from another department or bring a in a temp to help with some of the “grunt” work of scanning and filing.

    9. Someone On-Line*

      I agree about being specific and, rather than going in blaming Fergus, ask your boss how he would like you to prioritize your tasks. For instance, “It’s my understanding that these files are to be scanned and reviewed weekly. As there is a backlog of three months, how would you like me to prioritize?” “I see that these assignments were given to me while on vacation and due the day I got back. How would you like me to prioritize?” And keep asking until your boss starts to notice a pattern.

      1. AL*

        And, depending on your feel for the work, perhaps suggest prioritisation levels “I think that ABC should have priority over XYZ but want to check in with you first”

    10. Qwerty*

      Escalate this! Documentation is your friend! The 5 projects that were assigned to you while you were on vacation are a good starting point.

      In addition to all of the neglected work, Fergus needs to tell you when you are assigned tasks! Do you report to Fergus at all? You mentioned that your manager doesn’t even know Fergus is assigning things to you – that should be a red flag to your manager.

      When talking to your manager, keep the focus on the work and processes that aren’t being followed rather than your emotions. Present the facts and the outcomes and show that you are trying to work with your manager to protect the company. Don’t say that you need help with your workload, say that you inherited a position that was behind in its deadlines (like the vacation projects). While AAM hasn’t answered this exact question, there’s a lot of examples on the phrasing to use when presenting problems to your boss that you can practice with and modify to your own situation.

      Good luck!

    11. Llellayena*

      “Boss, I’ve been working through the backlog of reviews from before I was in this position, but I just received these five new projects with a very short deadline and I’m not going to be able to get it all done in the time I have. Can you let me know how you want these prioritized?”
      The key words in that are “backlog from before” and “just received”. These let your manager know you’re doing more work than you would normally have if there was no backlog and that by the time you were assigned the projects, the deadlines were already tight. If you have a summary of how long the 5 projects will take (X and Y will take 3 hours each, but A, B and C are a day and a half each). Documented information is more difficult to refute, so a list of when data was received and when (and who) reviewed it would be a good thing to keep. Hang on to the emails assigning you projects as well. With this phrasing, you’re not accusing Fergus but you are flagging that project assignment might need more oversight. You probably can’t do much about the backlog, but if they do end up doing something about Fergus, the documentation will help them.

    12. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Document, document, document. Fergus can’t argue with hard deadlines. Make a list of all the work that he neglected while he had his old job. Take that to the boss. In a separate meeting document all the deadlines he has given you since his promotion. Have this meeting with him and the other bosses so he has to explain in front of them why he piled on the work. With Fergus sitting there, ask him what he would like prioritized. Use historical records to show that his deadlines are unrealistic. Again, documents any interaction you have with him. If he gives you A,B, and C each of which requires 40 hours to complete, ask him to rank them in order of importance. This is where he gets bitten in the behind.

      1. StellaBella*

        I agree that having a meeting with your boss and with Fergus, “to aid in this transition and be able to prioritise work from this backlog” while having Fergus help to explain all this is brilliant. All the things here are good ideas in terms of tracking, getting ideas for how to prioritise from your boss, but I like this the best as it calls him on the mat and makes it clear he cannot weasel his way out of this bs. Starting with the assignments given to you the day you returned. Please do this and update us next week!

    13. hbc*

      I think you need to sort out the purpose of going to your manager. If it’s to get Fergus in trouble, then yeah, you’re probably going to have a hard time with a smooth-talking opponent and managers who don’t really understand what you do.

      If it’s to avoid getting thrown under the bus, then his smooth talking doesn’t matter. “Hey, boss, I just wanted to let you know that there’s a backlog of data to review and scan. I don’t know why, but since it’s a requirement that we keep it, I’ll start working my way through it. I’m going to focus on keeping up the most recent data so we’re clean from my start date, unless you object.” Whether or not Fergus gets his deserved shade for this is irrelevant to your objective.

      Also, “I’m finding projects are being assigned way too late for me to do them on time. Can we find a way to get these assigned sooner or have the due dates reevaluated? Five two-month projects with due dates in a week are too many to handle.”

      Basically, come at everything like you’re sure Fergus had good reasons for doing what he did, and you’re just expressing the impact on you and asking for guidance/support.

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, part of my problem is that I’m not really sure what I want my manager to do about this. My main concern is that I don’t want to look like I’m failing at my job when the reality is that I’m behind because Fergus set me up to fail. I’m a hard worker and I’m good at what I do (and I take my laptop home every weekend to do even more work at home), so I think I can eventually get things under control, but it will be quite a while before I get there. I also don’t want my hard work on catching up to go unnoticed, because if my manager doesn’t know there’s a huge backlog, he won’t know what an incredible accomplishment it will be to clear the backlog.

        There is a process for getting extensions on projects, but extensions are typically only approved for really good reasons (e.g., the part needed to repair something is out of stock and won’t be available until after the deadline), so I don’t want to depend on that.

        1. Blue*

          Yeah, I think you need to apprise them of the situation now that you have a clear picture of what’s going on. You can just matter-of-factly explain (and, more importantly, demonstrate) the state of things when you took over from Fergus and your plan for attacking the remainder. It’s perfectly reasonable to say, “As I’ve gotten farther into this, I’m finding that it’s going to be a substantial project that we hadn’t factored into my workload over the upcoming months. My plan for resolving this backlog is X, but I wanted to loop you in and clear it with you because it’s likely that my progress on [other projects] will slow down a bit until this is complete.”

          And definitely make sure the boss is in the know about the last-minute assignment of tasks. He’s probably not going to stop that without intervention from above, and if your boss respects you and knows you’re a good worker, she’s not going to be ok with you being set up to fail on a regular basis. Don’t worry about convincing TPTB that Fergus is The Worst – just be prepared with copious documentation that makes clear that you have a problem the boss should be aware and keep the focus on that. (Besides, it sounds like the evidence should speak for itself…)

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You don’t have to decide what you manager should do about this. That’s up to your boss. In order for your boss to make a decision he has to be aware of the problem. Whatever your boss decides is what it is. Hopefully your boss is a reasonable person and things go well for you and not so well for slacker dude.

          In this story I had a bad boss. I went on vacation, after I set up the work to do over my week off. I even made TWO sets of samples and put them in a very visible spot. I labeled everything and left a note on my desk.
          Of course, I got back and the task was messed up beyond belief. Even my bad boss caved, after I showed her what I done (samples, notes) to avoid problems. She had my slacker dude fix all the problems. He became scary angry and accused me of weaseling my way out of work. Fortunately, my boss saw through all this and slacker dude had to finish cleaning up his mess. And she was not that great a boss.
          Be strategic, lay out the facts so even a casual viewer can clearly see this is someone else’s error not yours.

        3. ket*

          You especially want to document that you’re working weekends, evenings or any extra amount of hours to finish this — you don’t want a situation where the work goes unappreciated/unnoticed, or where that amount of work becomes “the new normal” and it never ends!

        4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Don’t defeat yourself by assuming that Fergus can talk his way out of everything before you even try to document it all! His charm may start to evaporate once your boss sees all the facts. Just be as detached as possible and make it about documenting the situation and asking for a plan to tackle the backlog, rather than trying to challenge Fergus. You won’t look like you are failing if you adequately document what has been happening.

    14. Blue Eagle*

      How about going with the stupid and cheerful approach. Instead of approaching your manager with statements of fact about what Fergus hasn’t done that he was supposed to do, how about approaching your manager with questions about how does he want you to handle an assignment that Fergus gave you while you were on vacation that was due the day that you returned. Approach it as something that you don’t really understand why there was a delay between Fergus getting the project 4 months ago and you not getting until last week and what is the process supposed to be for assigning projects?

      Regarding the backlog of items, approach this in the question format too (i.e. “I was going through the files and noticed _________ from x number of years that haven’t been __________ — my understanding on taking this promotion is that the files would be up to date, and that I would be taking care of the paperwork of teapot spouts from the date of my promotion, but now I’m wondering what to do with all of these old files. Should I just leave them there and the company can worry about it if they are actually needed in the future or can you hire some temporary help to go through all of the old stuff and process them or how should it be handled.”)

      These may not be exactly the appropriate words, as I’m just thinking out loud, but you get the idea. And if this idea isn’t exactly right, maybe it will stimulate other ideas for you.

      2. Koala dreams*

        Yes, I like these ideas. The focus is not on Fergus, but on the fact that your own workload doesn’t make sense. You don’t want to set up an expectation that you will maintain a crushing workload going on.

    15. Working with professionals*

      First take a deep breath, say every awful thing you need to about Fergus’ lack of decency and then put together your documentation – list all the items you have to complete with the date you found out along with the deadline dates and the actual estimated time you’ll need to complete each item. Have a preliminary plan of your own on how you think you should handle the current workload to share so your manager sees you’ve been working on the problem and then ask her how she’d like you to handle them in case she has different ideas. Use a very neutral tone and discuss them as your projects – no mention of Fergus. Your manager already knows where this stuff came from. Making this about your projects shows your manager that you are not trying to point fingers or assign blame, only trying to get direction and prioritize all the fires you have. Once you’ve discussed these issues and received guidance, ask for clarification on the projects getting assigned to you in the system without notice to you, specifically for how to improve the communication in the future. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this issue.

      1. Susan K*

        I’m not 100% sure my manager does know where this stuff came from. One of my coworkers told me that our grand-boss commented a while ago that all of the Teapot Analysts seem to be working at a frantic pace except Fergus — because Fergus is so awesome at his job that he works more efficiently than the rest of us. Um, no, it’s because Fergus just wasn’t bothering to do his work!

        I don’t like to throw people under the bus, but in this case, I’m afraid that if I’m not crystal clear about Fergus’s role in the situation, I will be throwing myself under the bus. I’m afraid that if I go to him with a plan to handle my workload, he’ll be scratching his head wondering why I’m struggling so much that I need such a plan. After all, (in the manager’s mind) Fergus got it all done without having to go to the manager for help.

        1. Blue*

          You’re not throwing him under the bus! He created this mess himself – don’t make yourself a martyr trying to clean it up. You can be explicitly clear that about his role in this by focusing purely on the documentation he’s left you. Honestly, I would sit my boss down and show them both the giant stack of records and a few specific examples from the stack to make clear the extent of the issue. It’s hard to pretend 4 feet of unprocessed documents don’t exist/were an oversight on his part. But, as others have said, you’re showing them all that as context, to explain the challenge that’s been dumped in your lap. The conversation you’re actually having with your boss is how you’re going to deal with that challenge.

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            Except Susan needs to be really really careful not to sound like she is speaking I’ll of Fergus. Even just saying – Fergus left a backog can come across bad for Susan. Ask me how I know!

            She should talk to her boss but be very careful how she does. I provided some scripts/ideas for this below.

            I can also say from experience that documenting and showing “just how bad” the backlog ia goes nowhere on this situation. Truly start with Fergus then your boss.

              1. Phoenix Programmer*

                I am coming from the perspective of:
                1 No one likes to think ill of the great guy
                2 no one likes to believe they are fooled
                3 SusanK may not have the full story. Perceptions can be off. If she is wrong about the backlog it’s not a good look to come in saying Fergus was way behind if it turns out the drawer is low priority.

                All I am saying is be carful speaking ill of Fergus. Focus on facts.

          2. Not Gary, Gareth*

            Adding my voice in support of this. You’re not doing anything wrong, Susan, by showing your boss that there’s a pile of previously-unaddressed work and asking for assistance in getting it under control now that it’s your responsibility. That’s not throwing anyone under the bus. That’s just making sure you’re not getting pushed into the street during rush hour.

            And I would frame it as exactly that: “Boss, now that [Fergus’ previous work] is my responsibility, I’m noticing that there’s quite a backlog from before I took over. I’ll need to address it in order to be compliant/be successful at my job/ensure the company doesn’t suffer penalties/etc. but that will, of course, pull focus from my current full-time responsibilities. I’d like your advice on how best to handle it and get everything squared away.”

            You said yourself they don’t really understand the nuts and bolts of the job. So of course Fergus is going to look like he’s just more competent than the rest of your team. But it won’t take much, I suspect, for your boss to make the connection between “Fergus had so much free time” and “Fergus was cutting hella corners” if they’re at all a reasonable person. (And if not, then frankly you have bigger problems anyway.)

            Don’t think of it as throwing Fergus under the bus; think of it as providing your bosses some much-needed context about the work habits of the guy they just promoted.

            1. t.i.a.s.p.*

              I would make a point with the boss that you want to stay current with all your own work as your first priority. If something ever comes up where they are digging into files, I’d want the non compliant ones to be the ones that originated with Fergus, not the ones that originated with me and fell behind while I was bringing Fergus’s stuff into compliance.

              1. Phoenix Programmer*

                Yes and in addition the non compliant files may not be your bosses priority. Be sure not to fall into working on scut work at the expense of visobke projects.

                Honestly I still think the biggest issue is ops boss doesn’t know her workload. If boss was at all involved then the whole assigned a major project while on vacation causing a missed deadline would not have happened.

    16. gecko*

      I think you can go to your manager. First I think you should do two things.

      One, figure out what you want out of the meeting. Your primary goal can’t be, you know, “my manager gives Fergus the what-for!” It has to be something you can state to your manager. For instance, “I’d like help figuring out how to deal with this backlog and last-minute requests,” or, “I’d like some extra time in my schedule to deal with this.”

      Two, figure out what data you need to show your manager, and arrange it into something your manager will understand.

      For instance: “when I moved into the Spout Analyst role, I found a large backlog of data to review, in addition to normal projects and urgent requests from Fergus to handle existing projects. For the backlog, as you know, each of these documents needs to be reviews, digitized, etc, which I estimate takes 10 minutes per document. I’ve noted here that there are an estimated X number of documents, so Y hours. My daily duties and normal projects are A, B, and C, and as you can see here these are on track. Here’s a list of projects originally assigned to other folks; as you can see this project from Wakeen was in the yellow when he handed it off to me but is doable, but these five projects from Fergus unfortunately had X hours of work left when he handed them off to me and since I was on vacation I don’t have time to complete all of them before Tuesday. For context, all my projects when I was a Handle Analyst were consistently in the green. My goal in this meeting is to figure out how to fit this all in (or whatever it is) and prioritize, so can we walk through this a bit?”

      From my completely vague script what I hope is coming out is, do the thing that Alison recommends all the time of requesting help with time management (and emphasizing your goal). Additionally, if possible, I’d have a written, clear report that you can point to for each of your descriptions of your workload/the backlog. This may mean taking your normal report and adding to it, creating a whole new document, but I think it’ll help if you have a sheet with the pertinent information laid out for your meeting.

    17. HB*

      Do people do updates in open threads? Bc I would really love to see an update to this eventually. Good luck to you, regardless!

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, sometimes people do updates in open threads. I will post an update sometime… How about 6 months from now to say how much progress I’ve made in the backlog? I’ll mark my calendar to post an update in the July 5 open thread :)

    18. Phoenix Programmer*

      This sucks and is actually a much more precarious situation than most of the commenters are letting on. I have been in your exact shoes – promoted to Sr analyst to replace extremely well liked guy who went on to manage. That guy then threw me under the bus whenever he could.

      Whatever you do don’t go to your boss and say – actually Fergus was way behind. That will earn you nothing but the title jealous B faster than you can blink.

      Here is how I recommend handling the various issues:
      Last minute projects. Talk to Fergus first. Approach it as of course you did not know I was on vacation – how can we work together to make sure this works smoothly for both of us. You have to be cheerful and helpful in this conversation as much as it sucks. Convince yourself before going in that it was an honest mistake by Fergus and he would do right by you if he only knew how to.

      Backlog/boss not knowing your projects
      After this conversation go to your boss. Let him know that you caught up with Fergus and have already decided on [solution] – but [problem] occurred. This shows your boss you respect Fergus new role. It’s also a great Segway into your biggest problem that you did not mention – your boss doesn’t know your workload. Ask your boss how he would like you to keep him apprised and of what items. This naturally leads into your 3rd and also least worrisome problem – the backlog. When you bring it up be sure not to say Fergus left this backlog, failed to address, or anything like that. Just flag it – hey I found this file drawer that appears to be full of past due spout reports. Do you know anything about it? Well I was thinking of doing X,Y, Z to address and should be done by by [conservative date]. Boss will let you know if he even wants you working on this. Being fair to Fergus – it could be a known low priority issue. Or it could be a major screw up. But treat it like Fergus was actually competent and great but this drawer os here so what do I do with it?

      1. Mike C.*

        Why can’t you say, “Fergus was way behind”? If work wasn’t performed, it wasn’t performed. It doesn’t make you appear jealous to speak up about it, that’s really strange. If you have months and months of serious issues like this, it becomes almost an ethical requirement to report it as soon as you know about it.

        1. AL*

          They (the boss and grandboss) think Fergus is ace and amazing…they just promoted him. And boss didn’t know about the backlog.
          Pointing out to them that their viewpoint is wrong will make them resistant to any feedback.
          The aim should be to get clarification on-
          what the manager sees as priority tasks from current workload
          Fergus assigning projects without manager knowing
          What to do about existing backlog
          Expectation about short term weekend work to clear the backlog
          How often does manager want to be looped in on project statuses in future…
          All factual, but hopefully without saying anything at all about Fergus leaving the backlog…

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            That and we don’t know that Fergus was way behind. For all we know he was told to ignore these to focus on bigger priorities.

    19. M. Albertine*

      Everyone else has had really good suggestions (especially about focusing on asking for input on addressing the problem rather than on Fergus’ role in the mess), I would just like to request an update when you have one!

    20. designbot*

      In addition to what others have mentioned, I would also talk about the reassignments with Fergus. I’d frame it as hey, I noticed you reassigned these to me and the timing was actually really tough. I was out on vacation that week, and only got back a day before the deadline, and there was no way to complete it all. Going forward, could you shoot me an email when you’re reassigning things? That way if a situation like this comes up again you’ll get my out of office reply and know there’s an issue.

    21. ArtK*

      So, Fergus is giving you assignments without clearing them with your manager? That’s badly overstepping bounds. I would make sure that when talking to your manager, you point that out. “Am I supposed to be taking assignments from Fergus? It’s difficult with both of you giving me work. How is this supposed to be handled?”

      Fergus needs his wings clipped for starters.

      1. TechWorker*

        Sounds more like Fergus didn’t reply do a full handover and is now randomly dumping things he doesn’t have time to and/or doesn’t want to do. It’s not ok (especially not if done only when he realises the deadline is looming), but I’m not sure all companies would treat the ‘assigning work to someone who isn’t a direct report’ as a gross misstep by him.

    22. Mike C.*

      So I do a whole lot of the sort of thing you’re talking about, and I’ve been in your shoes. In addition to the stuff others have talked about, you need to start looking into automating the reviews of this sort of data. I do this all the time, and well within the rigorous regulatory requirements we’re required to follow.

      I mean sure, Fergus is a complete jerk here, but you also need to look at the process side of things. I suspect that things started small, and piled up over time, and it’s a really, really common failing. Even without that, that a single person can really screw things up is in and of itself a weakness in your process. He should have come up to his boss and done something about it, but not everyone does, so you get to do it.

      But you’ll also be the hero. You can not only work this backlog (and providing a plan with regular updates goes a long, long way to clear the panic of management!), but by promoting something like some automated systems (I can go into more detail if you’re able to say more about the sorts of reviews you do), you can prevent this problem from happening again, earn yourself some recognition, make more time for more interesting projects and so on.

      1. Susan K*

        What kind of automated processes do you have for data reviews? I’m certainly open to making this easier, but I think we already automate the reviews just about as much as we can. Our database schedules all required measurements and shows any that aren’t completed when required. It also has tolerances for each measurement and flags any measurements outside of tolerances or that are statistically anomalous, shows a warning message with required actions, and requires the Teapot Maker to enter a comment with actions taken. It does automatic calculations and generates graphs and reports with a couple of clicks.

        Still, humans actually have to look at the data, check the list of missed measurements and whether or not there were legitimate reasons for not taking the measurements, make sure the required actions were actually completed for out of tolerance measurements, check for errors and get the Teapot Makers to correct the errors, etc. There is a huge amount of data (approximately 20,000 individual measurements per month on average), so even with the automated features of our database, it takes time to review it. It’s actually not bad at all if I keep up with it every week; it usually takes me about an hour per week to review the data for handles (more if there are problems or errors I need to investigate or address). I just ran a report of unreviewed spouts data up until the day Fergus’s promotion was announced, and it was 1400 pages. Any problems or errors I find more than about a month back will be 10 times more difficult to address because people won’t remember, the person who entered it might not work here anymore, the data might have been included in reports that I’ll have to find and correct, etc.

    23. Temit*

      Just report on how the role was left, what you are currently working on, what is left to do and Fergus’ expectations. Communicate the estimated timelines for completion. And NOTHING ELSE! Share your lens/point of view with your manager but not your opinions or emotional investment.

      Let the manager come to his or her own conclusions. If he/she agrees with your realistic timelines, then remember the amount of time and effort you required to bring your area to par before actually doing your real job and document it in an email. Communication does not just flow in one direction (Fergus – You). Maintain an email trail, take screenshots of assigned tasks, deadlines and what was already 6 months late the day that you started.

      I was accused of neglecting something for three years. I had only worked at this role 6 months. The truth is absolute. No one can challenge it.

  6. Shellesbelles*

    Urgent question. I’ve received a job offer for a great position that I’m super excited about. It’s in writing with a start date, salary, job description, the works and I’ve accepted. However, I haven’t been able to sign anything yet because of a slower HR process (it’s a major company that was reduced to a skeleton crew over the holidays – offer came in the first week of December, so no big surprises there). My new boss is super excited about me, has assured me that I have the job and that this is just an HR formality.

    The issue – my start date is in two weeks and I’m currently employed. Should I give notice to my current employer today without having signed anything? I’ve talked to multiple people about this and everyone is telling me to just give notice today. But is it crazy to give notice without having signed anything? I’ve followed up with my new boss about it, but she doesn’t think it’s an issue at all and seems to almost be getting annoyed with me – “it’s just a formality and will not impact your start date.”

    Some background – my current job is horribly toxic and awful. I’ve been desperate to quit for years and it has been severely impacting my mental health. I’m terrified that I’ll quit and then something will go horribly wrong and the job will evaporate. The anxiety is tearing me apart. Everyone is telling my that I’m just letting my anxiety get in the way of being happy about getting out.

    2. Jenn*

      I’ve never ‘signed’ anything for a new job, but have always had a written offer in hand. What do you need to sign? Is it a background check?

      1. Shellesbelles*

        Background check and processing through HR. Soonest they can get something to me is mid next week, which doesn’t worry the new boss re: starting in two weeks, but it worries me. Everyone I’ve talked to, both at the company and externally, says that this is normal and fine and to go ahead and resign already. But everywhere I’ve worked (mostly smaller companies), I’ve always had to sign at least a job offer either electronically or in person. I feel pretty wary about leaving my current position without this being complete, but I also deal with anxiety and people telling me that I blow things out of proportion.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          I don’t give notice until the background check and everything is completed. I once had a company rescind their offer after the background check company provided wrong information. The company just send me a letter rescinding my offer, and a few weeks later when I finally got a copy of the report I see that the background check company had my name wrong and my master’s degree graduation dates wrong. But the company HR and hiring manager refused to take my calls or answer my emails. I was SO glad I had not given notice.
          Tell HR that until all the steps are complete and the offer is signed you aren’t able to give notice and will need to push back your start date, they should understand.

          1. RG2*

            FYI if this ever happens again, my understanding is that this isn’t legal (at least in some states). You can pull an offer based on a background check, but have to share a copy of the report with the hire and give them a chance to respond to the information. I’d consider reporting them to your state DOL.

        2. Bend & Snap*

          Nope. Both jobs I’ve had that required background checks, I’ve refused to give notice until all the hurdles were cleared. That’s not unreasonable.

        3. Bostonian*

          Yeah, don’t give notice until the background check clears. But when you say “soonest they can get something to me is mid next week”, do you mean the completed background check, or signing consent/permission to do the background check? Because the check itself could take weeks, and by then you’re already past your start date, so you might as well resign your current job now.

          However, if it’s just that the background check won’t be done until next week…. is there any harm in giving less than 2 weeks notice? You said the job was toxic, so were you expecting to use this place as a review in the future? You might have to go with the less than ideal option of not giving a ton of notice.

          FWIW, I ran into a similar issue when I last switched jobs. After accepting the offer, we decided on a start data a month ahead, but the background check didn’t clear until 8 business days before the start date, so I ended up giving *just* under 2 weeks notice at a job I actually liked and a manager I really liked. My manager wasn’t happy, but I would rather screw over my former company by 2 days than have the anxiety of having given notice without the background check clearing (which I had no reason to believe it wouldn’t, but still…).

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I wouldn’t give notice, unless you’re sitting on a pile of cash and can afford to be unemployed a while in a worst-case scenario. I’d rather give 1 week at my current job or push back my start date than to quit before I had completed the HR process of the offer. I work in a very professional job, and I’ve seen crazy stuff happen a couple times between offers and start dates, on both the candidate side and company side. Sure, it’s unusual, but I wouldn’t risk it.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        To follow up because of others’ comments about “signing things”. . .What I am picturing here is like a formal HRIS electronic offer and acceptance (not yet done) vs. receiving an email with the details from the hiring manager and accepting (done). I would want the formal stuff from HR done before I gave notice. Seriously, what the hiring VPs here think can be done and what HR does can be vastly different sometimes.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I’ve never had to sign an HRIS offer and acceptance, which is where my advice comes from. If that’s what the OP is waiting for, then she should wait (or bug them more). I’m pretty curious about what she’s waiting to sign!

      2. LaDeeDa*

        I once had accepted a job, had signed the offer, and was just about to give notice when I got a call from the recruiter to tell me that the VP who hired me had been fired and the CEO had put a hold on everything in that department, including hiring me.
        Companies can rescind an offer any reason at any time in the process. I am sooo leery of it now.

        1. TechWorker*

          thats so rubbish. Also feels like even with countries with decent laws around redundancy you wouldn’t have any recourse here, because you didn’t ever actually work there.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When you say you haven’t signed anything yet, what types of paperwork are you talking about? If you’re talking about new hire paperwork, like an I-9, then you ordinarily wouldn’t do that until you start (or, at least, I have never done that until my start date). If you have an offer in writing with a start date, you’re in fine shape and should give notice today (or Monday).

      For what it’s worth, I’ve never signed anything before giving notice. I have only done it when I’ve received and accepted an offer in writing– and that includes email. Just something with a record that the offer has been made and I have accepted it. I think your “multiple people” are correct here.

      Oh, and congratulations!

    5. Susan K*

      Congrats on the new job! You should go ahead and give your notice. You have the job offer with all the details in writing, so I don’t see any reason to be concerned that you haven’t been asked to sign anything yet.

    6. rubyrose*

      So you have verbally accepted, but you have not returned a written acceptance? Or you have returned a written acceptance, but HR has not processed it yet? Or HR has not acknowledged your written acceptance?

      If you have received nothing from HR, I would push back on that manager. Nothing in writing, start date can change. If you have returned a written acceptance and have just not heard back from HR, inform the manager that you desire their acknowledgement.

    7. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      If you have the offer in writing and have passed any checks, give notice. You have a start date coming up. It’s uncommon to sign anything in the US since most full time employee jobs don’t involve contracts.

      The official forms like I9 will be done on your start date.

    8. DaniCalifornia*

      I think you are perfectly fine to give notice. You have an offer with details in writing. It’s normal in my field not to do any HR stuff before you actually start.

      Congrats!

    9. Seattleite*

      What is the ”anything” you haven’t been able to sign? It sounds as if you are expecting New Job to be as duplicitous as Old Job. I’ve been there, too. In Good Job World a signed job offer and official start date mean just that. New employee paperwork will likely be completed on your first couple of days. I think it’s.normal to.feel distrustful when leaving a toxic situation, but helpful to remember that toxic is why you’re leaving. When I left my own Toxic Job it was helpful to think of it as the employment equivalent of a Bad Boyfriend. There were reasons I left, it was never going to change, I learned a lot about red flags, and I knew what my dealbreakers were for the next time around. Congratulations on your new job!

    10. Ali G*

      Just because you received an offer letter (yay!) with a start date assigned to you, doesn’t mean you need to accept that date. Just send an email to your soon-to-be manager, today, that says “As you know, I am very excited to be joining your team! However, I want to maintain good relations with my current employer, and therefore need to give them 2-weeks notice. Since I haven’t received my final offer letter yet, I ask that when I do, it includes a start date of 2 weeks after the date of the offer letter.”
      Then on the day you receive the letter, you sign it, send it back and give notice.

      1. ket*

        If they do an offer letter that you sign and send back, then that’s a fair process. But what if they don’t? I’ve certainly had jobs where I get an offer letter and then show up and do paperwork the first day — nothing signed to send back, as folks above are also saying.

        Get clear on what is normal in your new job, not what’s normal in toxic-job-land!

    11. Qwerty*

      Does the new job require this signed document for you to start? If so, what happens if they don’t produce it before the start date? If they would push back the start date until the document is ready, then it is too soon to give notice.

      If you are unclear on the process, what about calling the new boss and/or new HR and stating your concern(s)? It shouldn’t be too strange to say that you need to give your current job two weeks notice but want to make sure that the new job is locked in before doing so. Find out what it is that HR is waiting on and if it has the power to jeopardize your offer.

      About your anxiety – your concerns seem pretty normal, especially for someone leaving a toxic environment. Common advice is to wait until you have signed the offer letter and passed the pre-employment screenings (like background checks) before giving notice.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, I’ve never had to sign anything to accept an offer, but if that’s a requirement where your are (non US?) and/or your new job requires it, this should be easy to push back against. When New Manager says it doesn’t matter and doesn’t affect your start date, cheerfully say “Unfortunately, it does affect my start date, since I can’t give notice at Old Job until this formality has been completed at New Job.”

    12. Schnoodle HR*

      You have the offer, you not signing it doesn’t mean it hasn’t been offered. You signing it just says you accept, it’s more for the employer than you. Even after signing, it can be rescinded, it doesn’t protect you any further. I get it, I’d still prefer to sign one, sure, but the new company has already shown signs to just be okay with it and I wouldn’t start a new job with a bad impression, whether it’s warranted or not. I’d give notice, your current place is toxic anyway.

    13. Could be Anyone*

      Unless you’ll be signing an actual contract (which is uncommon) it sounds like you’re fine. You have the offer in writing, and I don’t see any red flags with the new employer, you signing it doesn’t really make it any more or less official.

      Congratulations!!

    14. Hallowflame*

      If you have a written record of the offer, start date, and your acceptance (email chain works), go ahead and give notice. The only documents I have ever had to sign prior to starting a new job were authorizations for background checks and drug testing, and that was just for the employers to get a head start on the process. Everything else was done in-person as part of the first day orientation/onboarding process.
      Your new boss has stayed in communication with you, reassured you that the job is waiting for you, and is excited to get you started. It sounds to me like the offer is good, you’re just moving to a company with crummy/understaffed HR.

    15. A person*

      Toxic jobs mess with you like that – they make you think every employer is out to screw you and everything is about to fall apart. You have a written offer and start date in writing – that’s the ticket. Unless it’s a background check or something like that the job offer is contingent on, you should be all set. If it makes you feel better, call HR to confirm first. Congrats!

    16. Sally*

      I’ve followed up with my new boss about it, but she doesn’t think it’s an issue at all and seems to almost be getting annoyed with me – “it’s just a formality and will not impact your start date.”

      But she’s not the one who would be unemployed if anything happened to scuttle the new job after you gave notice. I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. Perhaps you can calmly tell her that you need the offer process to be officially completed before you feel comfortable giving notice at your current job. If that happens soon, and you don’t care about giving your current company 1 week’s notice, then you’re good. But if it takes longer, you may want to ask your potential new manager to push out your start date by a few days.

      If they keep pushing and acting like this is no big deal, when you have stated what your concerns are and what you need, you may want to think hard about any other potential issues with the new place. When I started my new job, I told them I wanted to give my old job 4 weeks’ notice (I was the only person doing my type of work there, and internal clients really relied on me, so that was my preference). If they had said they wanted me to start earlier, I would have, but they completely understood.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        But unless the OP is actually signing a contract position for a certain amount of time, the signing of the official offer letter does not matter one bit. Assuming they are in the US most people are under an employment at will situation. If the company is a bad one, OP could sign the official offer letter give notice at their current job, and then the new company can turn around and say JK we have to pull the offer because of XYZ reasons. I get that OP would have a better peace of mind having signed the official offer letter, but having signed it does not give them an increased protections. I signed an offer letter when I started at my current company and two weeks in they could have said going forward we are going to pay you $15 an hour even if my official offer letter stated I was supposed to be paid $25 an hour.

        1. Teacher*

          OP states up thread that they have to sign off on a background check, which could definitely change the situation dramatically.

    17. Anonandon*

      I work in HR. If the new employer is telling you that your offer is contingent upon successfully completing their background check (which I’m assuming it probably did), I would wait to give notice until the background check comes back as clear. It’s not a legal requirement to give your current employer 2 weeks’ notice; it’s a nice courtesy, but not required. I’d recommend just sitting tight until you know for sure that you’re all clear.

    18. ChachkisGalore*

      I think it all depends on your risk tolerance… To avoid any risk whatsoever you would need to wait until everything is signed/dotted/crossed before giving notice. Unfortunately there is a chance that something could pop up between now and when you are able to sign (something could come up on a background check, the company could take a drastic turn and they could rescind the offer, the hiring manager might win the lottery taking off with no notice so they want the new hiring manager to hire for your role). If you have already received, in writing, the start date, salary, etc – my personal opinion is that the risk is very low that something will come up, however there is still a chance (however small or unlikely). Are you ok with that amount of risk?

      Personally – I was in a very similar situation when starting my current job. I didn’t want to give notice until my background check cleared, but it was dragging out a bit. The new company really needed me to start by a specific date and my old company required more than 2 weeks notice, so I was quickly coming up on the last possible date to give notice and still start on time at new job. I went ahead and took the risk. I judged it to be extremely unlikely for anything to come up on the background check.

    19. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’ve had a background check for every position I’ve ever had (banking/finance) and I’ve never had a confirmation of when the background check “cleared” so I’ve always given notice without having that confirmation. And I’m pretty sure that you aren’t going to get a background check back before you start if they aren’t doing anything until next week. I also don’t think I’ve ever had to sign my acceptance for the position. I have received the offer, but I don’t remember having to sign anything beyond the approval for them to run the background check. It’s been pretty common to start signing that (electronically) when I actually apply. All of that to say: I’d go ahead and resign so your future start date isn’t impacted especially since you already have the offer letter.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh interesting! I’m in finance too, but I’ve had a pretty formal (and uniform) offer/background check process when starting my last couple of jobs. It usually went: Step #1 verbal offer and I would verbally accept. Step #2 I’d usually get, in writing, the details of the job (salary, planned start date, etc.) – but this would not be signed and always had language about “pending background check”. At the same time as the written details I’d usually get the background check approval form – that I would sign and return. Then step #3 after the background check cleared, HR would send me the formal offer letter that I would sign and the company would sign.

    20. designbot*

      I’ve never signed anything until the day I show up to start work. I suspect though that this is an industry-specific thing, and I would defer to the norms in your field. In mine this would be seen as overly rigid and a red flag that you weren’t of a flexible enough mindset for the job.

    21. AMA Long-time Lurker*

      OP – I was in a very similar situation when applying to my current job: big company, long HR process, involved background check, etc. The background check was outsourced and consequently took a REALLY LONG TIME, filling me with anxiety until it was complete. HOWEVER, the company I had applied to did the right thing and pushed back my start date because they understand that HR formalities were holding up the process. This is what your new employer should do as well: push back your start date so that it will be two weeks from signing your letter. My guess is that your VP is very out of touch with HR’s lead time and practices, and this is causing confusion. In my situation, my prospective boss totally empathized and knew that HR could take a very long time.

    22. Another HR Person*

      I’m not an employment law attorney. I do work in HR. My education/training in the field has been such that promissory estoppel can be detrimental to employers’ when rescinding offers. In essence, if you have been made a promise (job offer, even if it’s not in writing) and have taken action to accept the offer (given notice to previous employer, relocated, etc), the employer can be held responsible if the job offer is rescinded without just cause. As a HR professional, I treat verbal offers no different than written job offers and therefore, supervisors do not provide a verbal offer until the pre-employment checks have cleared (we do not require background checks, which I understand can slow down the process). Personally, I have never relied on an offer in writing and am comfortable with verbal offers. However, I understand people have different comfort levels and I expect my HR team to move fast once the verbal offer is made to ensure the applicant can put the wheels in motion on their end.

    23. Justme, The OG*

      Don’t quit until the offer is finalized. And if current job is toxic, maybe don’t worry about giving them two weeks notice.

    24. leukothea*

      I haven’t read the other replies, but I was in your shoes a year ago. I had a verbal offer on the phone, and later an email, but there was no form to sign. I have notice at my old company and started at the new one 2 weeks later. It was fine!

      I think the onboarding at the new place was done 3 or 4 days before my official start date. By official onboarding, I mean I showed up at their HR department and filled out some forms. They only held those sessions twice a month, so that timing was never going to work out perfectly with the notice date / start date.

      Anyway, I think just giving notice at the old place would be very normal.

  7. New ED*

    My organization is about to do yearly performance reviews for the first time since I became the ED and I’d love any advice people have on performance review processed that go well- i.e. Questions to ask in self evaluations, ways for managers to structure their feedback, ways to solicit colleague feedback, etc.

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      One thing is that nothing on the performance review should be new info to the employee. My last review, my new supervisor left some weird feedback that he’d felt about something from 7 months before and had never mentioned to me, but felt it was important enough to put on my official review. I just stared at it going, “if you’d addressed at the time, I could have… done something about this”, but so much water had gone under the bridge, I couldn’t actually address it at all anymore.

      1. Bluebell*

        agreed on this. a friend once told me that her boss would say “If anything on this is a surprise, then I’m not doing my job.”

    2. Auburn*

      Just seconding this. In the same position of putting together a review process for my org and would also love to hear this from others!

      As a resource OP, the management center has some info that I’ve found useful in getting started. They have advice on process and sample forms, including sample completed ones for both positive and corrective reviews, and advice on things like 360 reviews.

      But I’d love to hear from people about what has worked for them. I’ve never worked somewhere that has done this well.

    3. SansaStark*

      The system we have at my job is REALLY structured and aligns with each person’s job description. So I have like 6 major categories and then all of my “duties and responsibilities” fall under one of those categories, which are weighted different depending on the responsibilities. We’re then evaluated using those categories. One thing I really liked that my boss did this year was talk about my goals for 2019 and things I could do over the course of this next year to achieve them.

      1. Blue*

        We do something similar. There’s a larger template for the whole office, maybe 20 categories altogether, each with some specifically defined criteria/expectations. You and your boss identify which categories are relevant for your role, and you write a little assessment of your work in that area over the last year and what you hope to build on next year. The supervisor writes their own assessment of your performance in each area, sometimes directly responding to things you brought up, and then grades each category.

        The self-eval also includes questions like, “What projects did you particularly like or enjoy this year?” and “Which projects did you not like?” I like those questions – they provide some interesting insight and the answers frequently lay the groundwork for discussions of future goals and professional development. In the past, I’ve said things like, “I thought X was interesting, but I didn’t enjoy the experience because I didn’t have the technical skills to navigate it confidently,” which lead to my boss asking if developing those specific skills was something I wanted and then facilitating that. Or I once talked about how much I liked an unexpected project that had been dumped in our laps, in part because it was a great fit for my skills and strengths. My boss agreed, and, knowing that I’d be eager to work on that kind of project again, tapped me to be team lead the next time a similar one came up. For supervisors who didn’t regularly think about professional development for staff and how to best utilize people within the office, the answers were good prompts to start the discussion at least once a year.

        1. SansaStark*

          I love the idea of asking people what they liked and what they didn’t! I started a new role in my department this year and have sort of struggled with a way to tell my boss that this role has a lot of administrative work that needs to be reassigned but I don’t have the authority to do that…It would be much easier for me to frame it under “things I don’t like,” i.e. less time for the projects associated with my actual job.

    4. sammy_two*

      Are your managers talking with their staff about any issues that come up during the year? I think not surprising anyone in their annual review by bringing up issues that should have been addressed earlier in the year is always a really good thing. (I’ve been surprised before after asking my manager to let me know if he has any concerns with my work, and it wasn’t fun.)

    5. Ama*

      One of the things I like best about my current employer’s review process is that everyone is in agreement that your yearly goals (usually outlined by your manager, although some will leave one goal for the employee to suggest themselves) don’t need to be big stretch goals, but can be getting a vital aspect of your job done, sometimes with a slight add (“assist with program management and take over development of project timelines”) and sometimes just a simple what is expected of you (my goals often include “oversee grant cycle and onboarding of new grant class” which is pretty much a core aspect of my job but also one that’s crucial to our operations). Usually most people have a mix of “do job as expected” with at least one special project or new-to-them responsibility mixed in.

      I like this because I’ve been at other places where goals were always supposed to be some kind of growth and that’s really unrealistic for a lot of jobs — or there might be growth possible in the first few years but then you hit capacity or make processes as efficient as they can possibly be and things plateau.

    6. CAA*

      If this is the first go-round, keep it as simple as possible. Really, there are only three things that you need to cover:
      – what is the employee doing well
      – what should they be doing better
      – what professional goals do they have for the next year

      The self-eval form should cover these three areas. If you think the questions above are too generic, you can personalize them by asking about communications skills, technical skills, interpersonal relationships, or whatever; but be careful not to get so specific that the questions end up irrelevant for some roles. Leave lots of room so that people can interpret the questions in appropriate ways for their own jobs without having to twist their meanings. It’s really annoying to have to rate yourself on timeliness of handling phone calls when you don’t even have a phone on your desk.

      Some places have a score for each category and overall, and some also rank employees by department and division. You do not need to do those things in order to have an effective evaluation system, but if you do them, then you should know what you’re going to use them for. Is this how you’ll decide who gets a raise or a promotion? Once you do performance reviews, and especially if there are numbers or overall ratings associated with them, your employees will expect that they factor into those decisions.

      Once the employee fills out the self eval it gets turned over to the manager, who reads it and answers the same questions about the employee. Then the manager and employee have a meeting where they discuss the form, agree on the goals and everybody signs it and turns it in to HR where it goes in the employee’s file.

      If you want more of a 360 feedback process, you can ask each employee to select a few coworkers to answer the “doing well” and “needs improvement” questions about them and turn those responses in to the employee’s manager before the manager writes her part of the review.

      You must provide work time during the business day for people to do both the self evaluations and peer evals as well as the review meetings. If you are not prepared to take the productivity hit of having everybody writing 4 or 5 evals for their coworkers, then don’t do the 360 feedback part this year. Performance review is an expensive process for businesses, so be prepared for that and don’t breed resentment by making people squeeze it in among all their other job duties.

    7. media monkey*

      i like reviews that have a bit of give and take – so you and your manager both evaluate performance vs objectives and if you don’t agree on the score you discuss til you get there. there should ideally be some written evaluation against each, not just a number. we typically have 360 reviews where the employee can give names of people to speak to (both internal and external) and they are sent a set of simple questions to answer. the manager can ask anyone else they would like to as well.

      i agree with the people below who are saying no new bad news in a review – in this context surprises are bad!

      normally the feedback we ask for is :
      – what does x do well?
      – what should x do more of?
      – what should x do less of? (often these 3 are framed as stop/start/continue)
      – then there’s a box for “anything else”.
      it’s fairly quick to do and you normally get actionable feedback. managers normally send these out on email in a standard template. we don’t usually get told who said which piece of feedback.

      in self evaluation, we tend to have categories of work (say client service or admin, depending on the level/ function of the person being evaluated). You look at last year’s objectives and give a score – goes above and beyond/ exceeds expectation/meets expectation/ below expectation/ needs improvement and you can write a bit for each one. then you set new objectives for the coming year.

      manager writes an overall evaluation using the performance vs objectives and 360 feedback. employee writes their response after the meeting and both have to sign off to say that they agree it is a true representation of the performance.

    8. StellaBella*

      SMART Goals and using SMART methods for measuring performance – specific, measurable, achievable/actionable, relevant, and time bound. You can look this up online for guidance. Also a resource here on this blog: searching for “performance review” gives a lot of results – here is one you may like to read https://www.askamanager.org/2007/11/what-goes-into-doing-good-performance.html …

      Planning, regular 1:1 meetings throughout the year (monthly and updates on performance quarterly), communication, format of review, goal setting, self-evaluations, outline your agenda and make sure they outline their agenda too for this meeting…discuss the things that went well and how to improve things that need some development. There is a lot of info here on the blog.

      Do you have in place a performance appraisal checklist or format that everyone knows about, how to use it, where they get filed, all the process things – and how to refer back to them in quarterly meetings for tracking progress? Good luck!

    9. SusanIvanova*

      Include the good stuff. I got one from a new-ish manager that was all “here are the things you need to work on” (and, as the other people mentioned, it was a surprise so wtf?) and then “and here’s your raise because you did such a great job”. OK, so which parts were great?

    10. CM*

      Unpopular and non-traditional advice: don’t use numbers and don’t tie compensation to the review. Use annual reviews to set goals for each employee for the coming year — projects they want to work on, skills they want to develop — and a roadmap for how and when they can complete those projects or develop those skills. Then review how it went at the end of the year and have a conversation about next year. Find the middle ground between what they want to do to learn and grow and thrive as individuals and what you need them to do to support the organization.

      Treat it like coaching and not like a report card. Come up with a different system to figure out fair compensation packages for people.

  8. Lindsey Willow*

    How do I explain to a prospective employer why I left my job of three months because of cigarettes smoke?

    I recently started a new job doing call center work from August until November. While I enjoyed the job and had previous experience in customer service, I did not care for my fellow employees smoking inside our room and in the building. In between calls, you could look around and see people smoking at their desks (literally puffs of smoke). It wasn’t actual cigarettes but the e-cigs (vape or juul whatever they call them). To make matters worse, my managers smoked inside too. I tried to endure it as long as I could since I needed a paycheck, but that kind of cultrual/environment wasn’t something I wanted to be in. Even co-workers would ask “So what kind of drugs do you do?” That was enough for me. I didn’t want to breathe smoke in and possibly deal with a drug-infested workplace. I decided it was time. Even with no job lined up, I left in November, and never came back.

    Should I give the standard, cliched answers of “looking for new challenges”, “not a good cultural fit” etc. and avoid talking about the reason why I really left? I suppose I could say I left due to health reasons and leave it at that? All I know is I don’t want to ever walk into a situation/work environment like that again. (I’m in NJ btw)

    1. BlueWolf*

      Honestly, for a job you were only at for three months, I think Alison’s standard advice would be to just leave it off your resume. A gap of three months wouldn’t be that unusual when job hunting, so most employers probably wouldn’t comment on it. If the gap comes up you could say that you had an opportunity that didn’t work out or something.

    2. vw*

      I’d be completely honest! I’d explain that people were consistently smoking inside! That hasn’t been acceptable in YEARS. I think you can leave the rest of it out (ie, being asked what drugs you do).

      I also hate smoking with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns, so I’m very much on your side. I’m glad you left and I hope you told them why.

      1. fposte*

        They were vaping, though, not smoking cigarettes. I wouldn’t like it either, but you don’t want to suggest the one when you mean the other.

        1. CAA*

          New Jersey bans vaping everywhere they ban smoking though, so it’s just as illegal to do it indoors in a workplace and I don’t think it would be bad to cite it as the reason for leaving an employer, especially if you’re applying at other places in NJ.

          1. fposte*

            If you’re in a jurisdiction where it’s illegal, you’d have more traction, but I still would want to be clear which I was talking about.

          2. Tinkerbell*

            And the fact that Lindsey already quit the place after three months will tell prospective employers that she is quicker to bail on a company instead of reporting them for doing something illegal and/or unethical. If “New Jersey bans vaping everywhere they ban smoking,” what kind of punishements/penalties would the company have encountered if Lindsey decided to report them?

            1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              Who would she report them to and with what outcome for her? I’d imagine that either no action would be taken, because it’s not that high on the list of law enforcement priorities, and she would have been pushed out of the company or otherwise made miserable at work.

              Not to say she should have tolerated it, but rather I am not sure how much recourse a new employee would have to change an office culture like this.

        2. EH*

          Vape fog/mist and cigarette smoke have identical impact on my allergic reaction. The reduced particulate matter helps with the wear and tear on my esophagus, but they both give me a nasty headache.

          Vapers think they’re being less horrible to the people around them than cigarette smokers, but… no. They are not. Take it outside.

          1. fposte*

            I get that, but my point isn’t that “it was totes okay because it was vaping.” It’s that they’re two different things to most people, the laws are still different on the two things in a lot of areas, and they’re at very different sociocultural points. If say “smoking” and it turns out that you meant vaping, that has high potential to throw an interviewer. You don’t want to throw an interviewer.

            1. Joielle*

              Do you think it’s likely that the interviewer would find out during the hiring process, though? I assume they’re not going to call the current place of employment and ask about it, since Lindsey probably doesn’t want the current employer to know about the job search. If she gets hired, on the off chance it were to come up later on, I just can’t imagine it mattering that much.

              Maybe it’s just that among my social and professional circles, smoking and vaping are seen as basically the same thing, and both obviously disgusting to do indoors. Personally, I think of them as identical in terms of how gross and annoying they are. (And honestly, vaping is probably worse with all the awful chemical fruit smells.)

              1. fposte*

                I was imagining that it would come clear during the conversation–I’m presuming Lindsey wouldn’t be deliberately trying to avoid saying e-cigs.

                1. Joielle*

                  Ah, maybe. I’m imagining what my reaction would be if an interviewee said their previous employer allowed smoking… I think I’d be too flabbergasted to say much beyond “well that sounds like a good reason!” or something, and we’d move on. But perhaps a different interviewer would have more questions.

                2. Little Bean*

                  Agreed, they are different things. If someone told me they quit a job because their coworkers smoked in the room, I would feel indignant on their behalf. If they later clarified that they meant vaping, my feelings would change. Vaping doesn’t burn anything so it doesn’t have the same secondhand smoke effects as cigarettes. Vaping also doesn’t necessarily include nicotine.

                4. Joseph*

                  Little Bean,

                  Regardless of whether vaping has the same secondhand smoke effect as cigarettes, you wouldn’t feel indignant for a non-smoker who did not want to be around that stuff all day long in a professional work environment? I don’t smoke and I sure wouldn’t want to work in a place that allows that. I have nothing against people who do vape or smoke, but please, take it outside. Letting your employees vape in the office tells me that you, as a manager, have no consideration or common decency for your other employees who do NOT smoke.

    3. Audrey Puffins*

      Smoking at desks sounds so outside cultural norms that I would be tempted to be completely honest about it, in interviews at least (I wouldn’t mention my reasons for leaving at all in a cover letter or CV). As long as you say it in a matter-of-fact tone rather than a haughtily judgmental one, then I know that as interviewer, I would think you made a totally reasonable decision and tbh I’d be delighted to hear an answer that *wasn’t* a standard cliche.

      1. Audrey Puffins*

        Oh, but as vw says, leave off the bits about drugs. There’s “this office had unusual norms”, and there’s “this office was really open about the use of illegal drugs”!

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Wow that’s insane, is smoking even allowed indoors any more? Since I’m like 99.99999999% sure that 99.99999999% offices are smoke free I think you can be honest and no one will fault you for it: “They allowed smoking in the building and it began to negatively impact my health” should do the trick, and if anyone isn’t understanding then that shows it isn’t a place you want to work at.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        They’re e-cigs, not cigarettes. Not that I think it’s right, but that I think it makes this reason a bit murkier. I used to work with a senior guy who smoked an e-cig when he visited our (open plan) office and I haaaaated it, but I never felt I could say anything because it wasn’t a cigarette. Not pleasant (I don’t care what they do to “flavor” that stuff, I think it all smells sickly sweet), but not illegal or even against all established norms.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I think people are reading fast and missing that this isn’t smoking cigarettes. It’s not going to be the automatic outlier that cigs at desks would have been.

        2. kbeers0su*

          There is a distinction, but there’s no evidence (that I’m aware of) that shows that the second-hand smoke from vape is any less harmful than the second-hand smoke from actual cigarettes. So I don’t think that OP would need to make that distinction.

          1. fposte*

            I think if she doesn’t make the differentiation she may end up at another place that allows vaping on the job.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Agreed. Not that I’m down with vaping in the office (or indoors anywhere but one’s own home), but in many places there’s still a social differentiation between vaping and smoking that the OP needs to recognize as she moves forward.

            2. Tinkerbell*

              I believe the previous poster (CAA) stated that New Jersey bans vaping everywhere they ban smoking. So if Lindsey interviews with a prospective employer in NJ which allows for vaping inside the workplace, then the prospective employer is already breaking the law.

        3. Natalie*

          A bunch of states amended their Clean Indoor Air Acts to include vaping, so it may well be as illegal as smoking indoors.

        4. media monkey*

          that wouldn’t be legal in a UK workplace (or public transport or anywhere else smoking is forbidden)

        5. Seeking Second Childhood*

          FYI… She’s in a state that already bans vaping in all locations where smoking is banned.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Annnd somehow I hadn’t updated since loading this at lunch yesterday. Sorry for the duplicate comment.

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Hmm where I am e-cigs and cigarettes fall under the same category and are both banned indoors, so I didn’t think the distinction was worth it. But if you live in an area that’s different, I think it’s worth mentioning that people were vaping at their desks and it made you sick, that will allow you to self-select out of places that do allow indoor vaping.

      1. ket*

        I guess I wouldn’t, because like it or not, that might raise suspicions in the interviewer’s mind that you have health problems that will affect your work with them. Instead, I think saying everyone vaped at their desks and you did not like the smell would be fine. That’s such a rare problem that it won’t put interviewers off!

      2. designbot*

        I think I’d say, the physical workplace turned out to be an usually bad fit for me. If they asked further questions I’d be honest, but I agree with ket that “health reasons” is more likely to signal to people that you have trouble doing the job for your own reasons, rather than that you found the physical work environment intolerable.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      I think it depends on what type of job you’re looking at next, but I would most likely go with the not a good cultural fit, with the type of tone that implies this place was some brand of crazytown.

      My concern with getting into too much detail would be leaving the hiring manager [unfairly] wondering how you ended up in that type of place in the first place.

    7. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t say “looking for new challenges” after a 3 month stay. I’d say culture fit, or the working environment wasn’t what you expected, etc. If pressed, I’d probably just be honest. Just don’t be emotional and be and matter of fact about it. (But also, WTF? I wouldn’t want to work there either.)

    8. Susan K*

      I’m curious to see other people’s opinions, but I think it would be ok to say, “I left my previous job because they allowed smoking inside the workplace, and I need to be in a nonsmoking environment. I’ve been looking for a position like this because…” Keep in mind that when prospective employers ask why you left your last job, it’s not because they really care about the story, but because they want to know if you’re going to be a good fit for this job. Few employers these days allow smoking inside, so that shouldn’t raise any red flags. The conventional advice not to badmouth previous employers doesn’t mean you have to keep everything a secret. I wouldn’t say you left due to health reasons because that could mean a lot of things and could make them wonder if your health issues are going to be a problem for them.

      1. Kathenus*

        I agree with this approach. While I’m not allergic I’ve always been overly sensitive to smoke and e-cigs bother me as well. I don’t think you need to insult or trash the organization because of it, but saying you’re looking for a new job due to the working conditions is very matter of fact and I think would be completely understandable.

      2. Joielle*

        Yeah, I’d go with that. Trying to be euphemistic about it runs the risk of the interviewer thinking you’re hiding something. And there’s no reason to try to hide this – it’s obviously a legitimate reason to leave a job!

        I’d still leave it off your resume though, since it’ll raise a flag that you’re looking for a new job after only 3 months, but without being able to explain why.

      3. Kes*

        I think this is the best answer – it’s straightforward and just explains the basic facts of the previous situation without being vague or negative, and then focuses on the positive of what you’re looking for.

    9. Mediamaven*

      A lot of people are suggesting you say not a culture fit but in a three month position that would be a huge red flag for me as a boss. It sounds like you didn’t get along with people. I would be honest about this one. It’s perfectly reasonable.

    10. WellRed*

      Smoking inside? Do you work in the 1950s? That’s so far outside the norm, I think you could mention that specifically. If you say “health reasons” they are going to think you have health issues that may impact your ability to do your job.

    11. Anon in CA*

      Vapes can cause breathing difficulty especially if you aren’t used to any type of smoke at all. I barely notice my husbands vape because I smoke weed off and on, but my friend with asthma who lives in a completely smoke free home notices it upsets her breathing to be around vape even if it’s mostly water vapor so we don’t smoke or vape inside on a day she’s coming over. It’s completely ok IMO for you to say your team Vaped indoors and it caused you breathing distress so you decided to look for other opportunities rather than try to change the existing culture.

    12. Akcipitrokulo*

      Just tell them. And something positive as well helps! “I really enjoyed X/working for Y, but unfortunately the office allowed using e-cigs in the office itself, and this was having an adverse effect on me.”

      Perfectly reasonable!

      1. Kathenus*

        Great wording, and as mentioned in response to Susan K’s comment above, I agree with being straightforward about the smoking/vaping being the reason for leaving.

    13. Decima Dewey*

      Check the local rules. In Philadelphia, all City offices/agencies are nonsmoking and have been for decades. The order has been updated, explicitly excluding vaping as well as regular cigarettes.

    14. Doctor is In*

      I live in KY, where workplace smoking laws are city by city. There is no statewide law. My county/city do not have any laws prohibiting it, but we are working on it!

    15. BadWolf*

      I agree with the others saying to acknowledge the vaping. I think that’s odd enough that most people would think, “Oh yeah, I wouldn’t stay there either.” And if the interviewer doesn’t think that’s a problem/reason to leave, maybe they vape in the office too and you wouldn’t want to work there anyway.

      I would just stick to a neutral, simple statement “They allowed vaping in the office and after a couple of months, it wasn’t working well for me.” vs “Oh my god, they let eeeeeveryone vape all day all over the office. It was max awful!!1!”

  9. Dr. Johnny Fever*

    My team is getting into Spiral Dynamics for communication and transformation. I can follow along through resources on the details, but am having trouble visualizing how to use the knowledge. I’m getting lost in Orange, Teal, Green, etc.

    Anyone with experience *using* Spiral Dynamics in action that they can share?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Do you have an outside consultant? Did you certify someone in your company? Is your company going through a big change- organizational restructuring or corporate culture changes?
      All of these types of assessments are designed to better understand how you communicate and perceive the world, how best to work with/communicate with people, and how to approach change at an organizational level.
      I am not a fan of Spiral Dynamics for a few reasons, I find it to be a little too “woo woo” for my taste, but most importantly I find it overly complicated. There are so many labels and layers that employees who are not part of talent or organizational development do not understand it, and leaders have no idea how to use is it in a sustainable and meaningful way.
      The best way to use it for your team is to take a look at the various labels and see what is your team’s distribution- and focus on what motivates them; harmony, integration, rules, (I can’t remember what they all are for SD) and then craft your messages so that it hits each motivator. It might feel repetitive to you, but to the receiver, it won’t.
      I hope this helps a bit- it’s a hard thing to capture in a comments section.

  10. FaintlyMacabre*

    I’ve been trying to switch fields into llama herding and have applied and interviewed several times for my state’s llama herding department, but have not been hired. In the meantime, I saw a job for the state’s lizard herding program and I applied, as it seems like it’d be easier to get that job and would give me skills that are transferable to llama herding. They called for an interview which is great, except for one thing.

    The way the llama herding interview went, I spoke with the current llama herders and two people higher up in the division. Given the overlap in the departments, I may end up speaking with someone who I have spoken to about my passion for llama herding. I have no equivalent passion for lizard herding. If I get the job, it’s just a stepping stone. How do I address that if I interview with someone I interviewed with before, for a job that I would have liked better?

    2. Murphy*

      Can you focus on the things that do interest you about lizard herding? (Particularly any similarities that there might be between lizard herding and llama herding?) Presumably it’s not the kind of job that you would hate, even if you’re not actually passionate about it.

  11. sequitur*

    I had the fun this week of updating our expenses policy to make it clear that employees cannot expense fines (e.g. parking or speeding tickets) incurred during business travel…because someone actually tried to expense a parking ticket. The mind boggles.

      1. Snow Drift*

        EZ Pass is bull, and I’m surprised they don’t get sued. The ones in my area change lane categories on the fly, using only the color-coded light to signal which is which. My colorblind husband gets nailed EVERY TIME.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Using colors to impart crucial information is so, so contrary to standard usability guidelines. In fact, I’m not even allowed to do that on my workplace’s webpage because it conflicts with accessibility standards.

          1. silverpie*

            Those glasses don’t work for all colorblind people. They adjust for deficiencies in the relevant color by adding more light in that color, but if you have zero reception in that frequency, 100 times zero is still zero.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’m not surprised that your employer doesn’t cover it (I don’t think mine would, either), but as someone who used to travel 50% for work I would absolutely expect to be able to expense a parking ticket. I wouldn’t have gotten the ticket had I not been in City X for work. Mistakes happen, and that’s a part of doing business.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I have to disagree with this; most cities have marked “No Parking” signs or some kind of indication that parking is not allowed in a specific spot. And I imagine the company reimburses for parking, so there’s no reason not to go to a garage or something. Simply being in a city doesn’t mean that a parking ticket is inevitable.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Of course it’s not inevitable, but employers are expected to cover a lot of costs that aren’t inevitable. If I drop my laptop as I’m carrying it to a meeting, I’m not expected to pay for a replacement. (If I drop my laptop frequently, or if I get parking tickets frequently, my employer may decide that I’m not worth the cost and fire me. But I still don’t have to pay for the laptop.)

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I still see those two things very differently. Dropping your laptop is usually an accident, parking in the wrong space is usually avoidable. One can drop a laptop intentionally and one can park in the wrong space by accident, but I think the majority of the time people get parking tickets it’s because they didn’t obey the signs (I’ve had a couple and that’s been why, and it sucks, but it’s my fault).

            1. Natalie*

              Ah, see in my city you don’t get tickets for parking in the wrong space. You get towed. Tickets almost always come from someone letting the meter expire, which is nearly always an oversight or an unavoidable delay, so it seems much more akin to dropping a computer.

              Businesses pay extra expenses due to employee oversights or delays all the time – CC processing or wire fees to pay a late bill immediately, rush shipping because someone wasn’t watching the supply levels, penalties or interest because payments were delayed. Unless a person is exceptionally cavalier about it and keeps racking up tickets, I’d probably pay the reimburse the occasional parking ticket just for the goodwill.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            Inappropriate parking is usually intentional (I know there are exceptions). Dropping your laptop is usually an accident. I wouldn’t expect the same policy to apply to both.

            1. CmdrShepard4ever*

              I can understand not paying for parking tickets, I am usually pretty good about reading signs and figuring out restrictions and not parking where I was not supposed to. But I have traveled a few times where I tried to be super diligent about routes/tolls and have still run into unexpected toll lanes where you are not adequately warned until you are already on it and have no chance of getting off.

              1. Sharon*

                A great example is the NY Throughway, as it doesn’t work like (or didn’t when I used it last some years ago) other toll roads I’m used to. I had to learn how it works by violating it the first time I drove on it: you take a ticket when you get on it, and then pay when you get off. I had no idea, so didn’t take the ticket or even notice that there was one! I drove up to the gate/arm, it went up and I went through. Needless to say when I got off the Thruway, the toll clerk was very confused and threatened to charge me for driving the entire length of it.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  That arm should say “take ticket” but I bet it doesn’t. Yep it says right on the ticket that if you lose the ticket they will assume you drove the entire Throughway. Like we can read that size 6 font at 60 plus mph.
                  For some folks in NY avoiding the Throughway is a religion/way of life/genetically passed down through generations. Up north of Albany, 87 becomes the Northway and it has no toll booths.

            2. PhyllisB*

              It could be they parked in a place that said something like “two hour parking” and were held up in a meeting and could not get out to move their car in time. I had to go to court with my son one time, parked in a 2 hour parking area thinking I would be fine, and the judge was an hour late!! Bailiff would not let me leave the courtroom to move my car. So, I ended up with a parking ticket. The next time I was called for jury duty. This time I parked in a four hour zone. Well, jury selection took 6(!!!) hours. Got another ticket. The first one I paid because it wasn’t worth the hassle of going to court. A parking ticket in our town costs $6.00 so I just sucked it up. The second one I took to the court clerk and she made it good plus gave me a pass to put on my dash.
              There are lots of ways to get a parking ticket even when you are legally parked. I would let them expense parking tickets ONE TIME then make them show documentation of why they got the ticket. Now speeding tickets are another story; I can’t think of many good reasons to get one.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Ask the court clerk if the court can help you, if this happens again. Some parking tickets can be really steep.

          3. Yorick*

            Your laptop is a necessary tool for your work, and it must be replaced if broken or you can’t keep working. A parking ticket is totally different from that.

        2. WellRed*

          I live in a city with atrocious parking, and myriad parking rules (Only park on this side of the street on alternate Mondays and Wednesdays, but only when the moon is full). I live here and can’t figure it out half the time. Don’t even get me started on the private company that started managing what seemed like public lots. If you went over by 5 minutes they’d boot you ($70).

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I am thinking of Big City in my area. You can drive around and around and never find a parking spot during business hours.
            I think some areas just have chronic problems and parking tickets become a part of doing business.

        3. WellRed*

          I live in a city with atrocious parking and convulted parking rules that are confusing to the locals. Don’t even get me started on the lots that look public but are managed by a mercenary vendor who slaps a boot ($70) on cars the minute they go over their allotted time.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah as someone who travels in a place with lots of traffic cameras and bad toll lanes and incorrectly marked parking, I *wish* my employer would consider helping me out as it’s impossible to avoid getting dinged when you’re out in the world on business. I just have to have a whoops budget because I’m going to have to eat these fines … but they really are basically a business expense, since the only reason I’m there is work. However, this is a near universal rule everywhere I’ve ever worked. Positions with a lot of travel need to pay more because of this kind of thing, plus the inconvenience factor generally.

        1. New Year, New Me*

          Does this happen when you travel on vacation? I travel to new places all the time for work and for fun; I have never gotten an infraction ticket because I didn’t know a city very well. The last time I got a speeding ticket when just a few miles down the road from my parents’ house, a road I frequent when I visit them. This seems like a really flimsy excuse to me.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            My husband did 500-700 miles per week business travel. If you look around for a legit spot then your other numbers that they evaluate you on can go down. For example, you lose time looking for a space you do less service calls per day.
            After the WTC, my husband had to get through security before he could work on a customers machine. Which was understandable to everyone, except his bosses. On many calls he lost 45 minutes just waiting to get through the security check point.
            You see the pressure cooker building here. Lose time looking for a legit spot, lose more time waiting for security, and other things all ended up being stuff the employees got reprimanded for. Employees get sick of being scolded for things they cannot fix.
            Vacation travel does not have the time pressures that work travel has.

            1. New Year, New Me*

              I’m confused about ‘looking for a legit spot’. When I’m a new city, I look for a parking garage nearby where I want to go and park there. I don’t risk street parking (for work or personal travel); I go straight for the parking garage.

              The security stuff, that I definitely agree with you on, and I’d be pissed if my boss didn’t understand that the customer’s own security checkpoint is what made me late… though in my office, I know a few projects have involved high security government places and security checks are factored into the timelines for our meetings. But those are known security spots; for it to be a surprise, take forever, and the boss isn’t sympathetic is not okay.

              Also, depends on your vacation. As a kid, my dad once had our family flying through an unknown city to reach a cruise ship when we were running late for the departure point, and he still avoided any tickets… in fact, all vacation travel with my father is a time crunch that would put my work to shame. At least one time we ended up in a foreign country without a passport, it was his own passport and we were able to prove it was his own fault. He was about ready to chew out my stepmom until we pointed out that he had done photocopies of all our passports before we left and thus left his own on the printer.

      3. New Year, New Me*

        I work for a business where people travel at least once a month for work and it specifically states in our policy that that employees cannot expense for parking tickets, speeding tickets, and other such fines. Yes, mistakes happen, but that’s on you as a person to pay attention, not the company.

        If you visited a friend in another city that you didn’t know and got a ticket there, would you expect them to pay for it because you wouldn’t have gotten it if you weren’t in that city visiting them?

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          While I understand that it’s not common for parking tickets to be covered by employers (as I said in my first comment), I’m genuinely baffled by everyone planting their flag in the absolute rightness of this arbitrary policy.

          Of course I wouldn’t expect a friend to pay for the parking ticket I got while visiting her… because, unlike my employer, she didn’t obligate me to go on a business trip to her apartment, and we don’t have an formal economic relationship in which she explicitly trusts me to make decisions that have financial consequences for her.

          It’s just silly that we’re asked to pay for this one particular kind of mistake we make on our jobs, but not the millions of others. I don’t have to personally pay the overtime for an employee if I make a mistake that someone else has to stay late fixing or, hey, even if I have an accident while I’m driving a company car. My employer trusts that I do my best, and has decided over time that my best is worth the salary they pay me.

          I’d also like to think that they could trust me to make a judgment call that it’s worth a $25 parking ticket to not be late to a training session after a flight was delayed, or that it makes more sense to pay a $100 ticket than to walk out of an important meeting to feed the meter.

          (And, of course, if they’re ever dissatisfied with my performance, including the number of times I have an accident or make mistakes or get parking tickets, they can coach me, change my job so I don’t do the things that I keep screwing up, or fire me.)

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Oh, and: I’ve never gotten a ticket while driving (whether for work or otherwise), or a parking ticket or toll-lane violation on a work trip. I’m arguing the principle.

          2. AcademiaNut*

            I would say that if someone gets a speeding ticket, or ticket for unsafe driving, it should absolutely be payed by the driver.

            But things like parking tickets are trickier when you’re in an unfamiliar city, particularly one with Byzantine parking regulations. If the parking tickets are 100% on the driver, then the employer needs to accept that they might sometimes be late or need to leave a meeting to feed the meter, or be wiling to let the employee take an Uber from the hotel if there isn’t a convenient public garage. Also, time spent researching parking options and regulation should count as work time.

            I do think that things like merging into the toll road by accident or making a mistake with commuter lanes should be covered by the employer, within reason.

            Vacations are different – you’re doing it for fun, not for work, and you usually aren’t under the same time constraints – arriving at the museum at 9:30 rather than 9 is less of a big deal. Plus, major tourist sites tend to be well set up for public parking in a way that vendor sites or random businesses aren’t.

        2. TechWorker*

          That’s not a great comparison, if I drive to visit a friend I also don’t expect them to reimburse petrol..

          1. New Year, New Me*

            I’ve had friends expect it in situations with me, which is probably why I’m defensive about money in regards to transportation. At least my work has the courtesy to lay out their expectations in advance; while my friends have left me high and dry in other circumstances.

            One example, I was driving to an outting with a friend in my own car. On the way back, I got ill and asked if my friend could drive the rest of the way home. She agreed and took over the steering wheel. Weeks later, I got a notice in the mail of a speeding ticket from a highway camera. Based on the time and location, it was from when my friend was driving my car. When I asked her about paying it, she got upset because she was helping me out when I was sick and shouldn’t be punished for doing a favor for me. I didn’t point out that I had volunteered to drive us to our outting with no request of gas money from her and simply paid the ticket without pushing a fight.

            1. Marthooh*

              That’s a very different situation, though! Your friend was being extremely petty and definitely should have paid the ticket, but she’s not your employer and you don’t have a financial relationship with her.

              I’m afraid the best way to look at it is that you got an expensive lesson in how much you can trust that friend’s judgment.

    3. Nessun*

      I’ve had people try to expense parking tickets in the past – and it’s been a hard No in our expense policy for over 20 years! Just last week someone had a fit because there are delinquency charges on their corporate card, and that was also a hard No in the policy but they expensed them anyway – and got denied, and got mad. I even got an email asking me to call the cc company and tell them that the company would pay later, so the employee would stop getting calls! Un-be-lievable.

      1. WellRed*

        Why isn’t the company paying the corporate card on time? Presumably, employees aren’t expected to float the company loans?

        1. TexanInExile*

          I have always had to pay my corporate credit card myself. The company is really good on turning around expense reports, so I always have my money before the CC bill comes, but for people who don’t file their expense reports quickly, they might have a problem.

        2. Nessun*

          They pay when the expenses are approved, and they’re approved after they’re submitted, pending review of policy. The delinquency charges were against policy, so the whole thing got disallowed, and he had to resubmit. And of course, he had waited ages to submit in the first place, so his allowable expenses were into 90 day territory, and his disallowed expenses (which he wanted to be reimbursed on) were at the same point too. It’s a matter of his procrastination, expecting policy to be waived (!), and timing turnaround.

    4. Sara without an H*

      I once had a job working for a sparsely-populated, largely rural western state. All new hires were warned that they would be personally responsible for fines incurred while driving vehicles from the motor pool. No exceptions.

      Apparently, at one time, before I started there, if you were pulled over by the State Patrol while driving a state vehicle, you got a personal call from the governor. And those calls were not fun.

    5. Grapey*

      It’s good you clarified it because some industries DO cover parking tickets as a matter of course. I see plenty of contractors at our factory in an very busy urban setting (e.g. very little parking anywhere except for meters – we don’t even have a parking lot for employees).

      I told one guy that he had a parking ticket on his van and he said the companies he’s worked at always pay for those. Depends on your area I guess.

      1. Natalie*

        Yep. My husband has had a couple of roving maintenance jobs where the company would pay typically pay tickets. No one’s going to stop in the middle of a repair to move their vehicle or add time to the meter. It’s just part of the deal in areas with limited parking and strict enforcement.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      I don’t recall if it was in a recent open thread here or perhaps on The Workplace (StackExchange), but someone was complaining about the company not covering a ticket. They’d been travelling for work and a ticket had been automatically and incorrectly given. The OP found cameras that proved their innocence, but the rental car agency just pays the tickets and bills the company that rented the car. The company wasn’t budging – you got a ticket, so you have to pay it.

      That’s a long way to say – I hope you’re willing to examine the circumstances when your people push back. If they are wrongly given a ticket, if they get a ticket because they are color blind and color is how the information is given, if the parking was not clearly marked – be willing to consider it a business expense in some cases.

      1. New Year, New Me*

        That was a thread on here and that was a case of the writer getting an incorrect fine on a rental car. The rental agency had a policy of simply paying the fines without further investigation and then asking the drivers for reimbursement. So the rental agency asked the writer’s company, who said the writer needed to pay for it. I believe the responses encouraged the writer to tell the rental agency that the fine was an easily researched mistake and they shouldn’t have blindly paid it.

    7. Jake*

      I’ve worked several places that would cover an occasional ticket if they required you to get reimbursed for parking instead of actually providing parking.

      Not unreasonable to me, considering I’d park at a meter 300 plus days a year.

    8. JHunz*

      In that case, I hope you cover the cost of traveling back to the city to fight the ticket in the local traffic court in the case of undeserved fines or tickets.

    9. Le’Veon Bell is seizing the means of production*

      Yeah, I was on the fence about it, but after reading the replies here, I’m absolutely on the side that parking tickets while travelling for work are a business expense that need to be picked up by the business. If there’s abuse of the policy, or particular worry about abuse, you could set it to an individual max of 1 or 2 or 3 per year or whatever makes sense, but saying the business will not cover tickets not make sense as a blanket policy for an organization that cares about not hassling their staff.

    10. the flying piglet*

      I used to work for a past-paced retail chain. The company was located in a high-traffic, notoriously bad parking area. They provided parking spaces for two cars, but there were usually up to 7 employees working per day. The policy was that you are allowed to go out and refill the meter/move your car when you have to (every two hours) and the cost of the meter would be covered. That said, on busy weekends we were often SWAMPED and the only way to move your car on time would be to interrupt a transaction, leave your fellow coworkers in the lurch while you moved your car, or both. I racked up a ton of parking tickets, most of which cost quite a bit more than my hourly rate, and none of them were covered by the company.

    11. MatKnifeNinja*

      Those people come from “You don’t ask, you don’t get.” land. No they are not embarrassed. If you tell them WTH, NO!, they aren’t even upset.

      Have 3 relatives who roll through life that way.

      #NoShame

  12. Doug Judy*

    How do you keep your confidence up when going through an extended job search? Since the fall I have gotten to the final round of interviews 5 times, and rejected each time. If you go back to the past two years, it’s close to a dozen. I have asked for feedback each time, only one has ever responded that it wasn’t anything I did, they loved me, just the other person had a bit more relevant experience.

    Here I am yet again, waiting to hear back next week as they are down to me and another person. I am trying to temper my expectations, but I really am not feeling confident. Add to it I know my current position is going to be over, as soon as next week.

    1. New Year, New Me*

      I went through a very long searching process, like at least two years. The most important thing to me was allowing myself to take a break, especially if I didn’t get a job that I was really hoping for. Allow yourself time to be sad for a bit, get a breather away from the cycle of applications and interviews, before diving back in. It saved my sanity.

      Also, I had to tell my friends and family to stop asking me about the search unless I brought it up in conversation. They all knew I was looking but talking about it when I was trying to enjoy down time with my loved ones did not help.

      Good luck!

      1. Doug Judy*

        Yes, I have a new policy to only discuss my job search with my husband. I know my friends are supportive and mean well, but having them ask about it has gotten too hard, I feel embarrassed to have to tell them yet again, I didn’t get it. I know they don’t think any less of me or anything, but it still is hard. Plus when I am with them I want to have fun, not talk about the crap circus my career is.

    2. AliceW*

      I’d concentrate on the positives. You’ve had a lot of final round interviews. The job market is strong. The one bit of feedback you got was very good. These all point to you nabbing a job eventually. Some friends I know who’ve looked for jobs in the past three years have had trouble even getting an interview or advancing further than the first round. Good luck and hang in there. It’s just a matter of time since you sound like you’re doing things right.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I hope so! I don’t usually stay down for too long after a rejection, a day or two and then I bounce back and get back out there. Hopefully now that the holidays are over there will be more openings too. I live in a small city so there aren’t many openings in general and December is not an ideal time to be job searching unless you are in retail or something where it’s critical to have positions filled ASAP.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      I went through a nearly 18 month job search with many final round interviews ending with “you’re amazing and passionate and we think you’d be great! But we went with someone else.” results. Probably close to 25. It was super frustrating and really demoralizing. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      Something I did, in addition to what the other comments have mentioned, was focus on something I was good at that had zero connection to my working life to help boost my confidence to make me prepared to get back in the saddle. So I got into baking and sharing those with friends and family. It also helped segway away from “Oh how’s your job search?” to “OMG this is so good!” So if there’s something that you really enjoy doing find some passion and confidence from that, and let it bleed into the rest of your life. Good luck!

      1. Doug Judy*

        Good point! I am also a baker. This summer I did cupcakes for a wedding of two good friends. It was very nice to do something I am good at and be recognized for. Not something I in at all interested in doing for a career, it was so much work, I could not imagine doing it on a daily basis.

      2. Natatat*

        “focus on something I was good at that had zero connection to my working life to help boost my confidence”

        What a great idea! My situation isn’t like OPs, but this advice still seems like a great idea to turn off the work/worry part of my brain (new job, lacking confidence) and help myself feel good. Some easy “wins” (doing a good job at something I’m good at outside of work) would probably help my self-confidence overall.

    4. Natalie*

      I realized recently that I’ve been job searching off and on for the last three years – a nine month job search led to position A, then three months later that business was sold and I was going to get laid off within a year. So I spent a year job searching, accepted Position B right as my layoff date was approaching, but Position B turned out to be such a bad fit that I started searching again within a month. Now a year later I’ve just accepted an offer and am working out my notice period.

      The most important thing that helped me keep going was breaks, as others have mentioned. Sometimes really long breaks. I took a whole summer off. I worked with a ton of recruiters so I could do some passive job searching. I also spent some time developing other stuff in my life – hobbies, relationships, a city advisory board – which was both something else for me to focus on and something else to talk about at parties or whatever.

    5. emmelemm*

      I don’t know. My boyfriend went through a very extended job search and got a fair number of interviews and… no offers. I don’t know how he stayed sane, honestly.

    6. CastIrony*

      I have a similar question: I am in an extended job-search in a small town. Like Doug Judy, I get interviews and no offers for the same reason, despite having the education and in one case, all the qualifications.

      However, I think my current employer is hurting my chances (I have grown professionally and personally in my job of six years, but have had some incidents in the first few years), and I wonder how to tell interviewers that I don’t want my current employer to be contacted (until I have an offer) so that I can get a full-time job!

  13. Dragoning*

    I have a bit of long question, but it boils down to: is it a good idea to apply to this job or not?

    Context: I am a permalance contractor with a specific company. Recently, I’ve been getting bothered by recruiters from other firms for another contract/permalance position also at this company, doing somewhat similar work in a different department. But work I’m more interested in, and that I think would be more useful for my future career (I’m very early in my career at the moment, but I definitely do not want to be promoted in my current department–all their jobs make me cringe).

    My current department works with this department the new job is with a fair amount–and they like me over there. Enough that the hiring manager for this position actually gave me a bonus out of her department’s budget in June.

    But, my dad (who works as a FTE in a whole completely other sector of the Specific company) insists this is a terrible idea and will show I’m “disloyal.” Well–I’m a contractor, what reason should I have for loyalty? If this is a better job for me, why am I not allowed to take it because I’m a contractor? If this was a full-time opening, or if I was full time, I would apply for the transfer in a heartbeat–but it’s not, and I’m not.

    He also thinks it would mean I would have to impress my entirely-new chain of management for a hope of getting a FTE position at specific company–which I do want (BENEFITS, YES, PLEASE). My current line of management is currently VERY happy with my work at my current job. But they don’t have the budget to make me a FTE anyway, and who knows when they ever will.

    Obviously, if I apply for this job, it’s likely that the New Job Department will ask my current department about me in more detail, and thus spill the beans about my “job search.” But I’m not really actively looking for a job, and I do like my current job…I just don’t want to do it forever.

    I’d at least like to interview at learn more about the job…

    Thoughts? I’m really torn.

    1. Sara*

      I feel like there’s a generation of workers that really stress loyalty to a company or a manager as a way of improving your station in life. Unfortunately that’s not the case in today’s job market, loyalty will only get you so far. I say apply! You need to do what’s best for yourself, and it sounds like you’re interested in moving into this role. Perhaps ask the recruiters how they’d handle an internal interview because you don’t want to alarm your current manager if you don’t have to.

    2. Observer*

      I’m kind of puzzled about the “loyalty” bit. It’s weird enough in general, but especially in the context of making a move within the organization. Is this place REALLY siloed and full of intrigue?

    3. Overeducated*

      Interview! Contractors are not expected to be loyal where I work, and having to impress your new chain of command is a red herring anyway, permalance jobs are not guaranteed so you might have to make a move regardless. At least get the experience you want.

    4. revueller*

      The most important details here are the following:

      The position you would apply for:
      – is more interesting to you
      – would better advance your career
      – has benefits that you want

      Your current position:
      – you don’t want to be promoted at
      – BUT your managers are very happy with your work and sound reasonable

      The only one being unreasonable here is your dad. Go for the job.

      1. Dragoning*

        That’s the thing–it DOESN’T have benefits I want. I wish it did. In fact, if I have to switch contracting firms, I’m going to lose what few benefits I currently have.

        1. revueller*

          Ah, my bad. I misread then. Maybe try for a coffee with someone you know at that department. That way you can dip your toe in without having to formally interview right away.

          I just firmly disagree with the loyalty thing, especially if your current position isn’t what you want to do forever.

    5. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      You don’t owe your current employer “loyalty”. You owe them your work. And then when you want to leave, you can leave. Unless there’s serious conflict of interest issues at play, you can apply where you want to apply.

      And since they’re not giving your benefits at your current place, they should probably already know that you’d be happy to leave for a place with a better compensation package.

      2. Decima Dewey*

        I’m loyal to the branch where I’m assigned. That branches priorities are my priorities.

        And, since TPTB can reassign me to another branch at any time, my loyalty and my priorities are subject to change.

    6. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Blech, I hate when people bring up so-called owed loyalty to a company. Unless he has some weird insider information about Specific company, I think you can trust your instincts and throw your hat in the ring for the full-time position. Your current management knows you want a full time position and they don’t have the means to provide you with one, they probably expect you to be job-hunting anyway.

      Go for it and good luck!

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Hmm well I still think it doesn’t hurt to learn more information about the position.

        But should you take it if offered? With the idea that you’d be leaving a contract position for another contract position, potentially losing what benefits you do have, all while still wanting to go fulltime, I think it would have to be a pretty good offer to make that move. Either it would have to be a job you REALLY want to do, or will provide great experience/connections, or offers you a lot more money, or has a good chance to actually go fulltime, otherwise I think you may be better off in a holding pattern at your current position while looking for fulltime work elsewhere.

        Long story short: get more information, it can’t hurt!

        1. Dragoning*

          It’s difficult to get more information without interviewing, though, and that kind of…spills a hand all over the desk I don’t want showing right now because it’ll look like something it’s not.

    7. LKW*

      As a contractor, you don’t owe the company loyalty. And this notion of loyalty is outdated. Companies will take as much as possible from their employees.

      You know the environment better than I but is this a company that rules by fear? If so, then your dad may be right. But they may value gumption over fear and like people who take risks. And then your dad would be wrong. I say apply. Anyone in the company who takes it personally has a screw loose.

    8. Snow Drift*

      Strongly agree with other commenters. Your dad’s ideas are incredibly outdated, and actually contradict the current job market. Many articles in business pubs are talking about how long-term employment stagnates people in regards to salary and promotion. Listening to your dad could be actively harmful to your career growth. You should apply.

    9. Sara without an H*

      Hey, you’re a contractor — you owe your present employer your best work, and that’s it.

      Do give your current manager a heads up about this. If she’s at all decent, she’ll understand your desire for a position that could lead to full-time employment. With benefits.

      1. Dragoning*

        Well, it has about the same odds of getting benefits as this one does, really–my dad’s thing is that he thinks it’s going to “reset” the timeline on how long it takes (since I’ve been in my current department for a year and a half now)–not that I was ever given any guarantee or timelines anyway.

        1. Sara without an H*

          I’d still go for it. If you don’t have a specific guarantee (in writing!), then you have no reason not to interview for the other position.

        2. De-Archivist*

          Longevity=/=promotibility. This is a common mistake that people make about getting promoted, probably lingering from your dad’s generation’s outdated misconceptions of the job market. I fell into it myself early in my career. There’s this mindset that if you “put in your time” and do good work that you’ll eventually get promoted. But that’s not always the case (though it can happen). Anyone who’s been passed over for promotion over an outside hire can probably attest to that.

          If you want to do the work of the other department to expand your skillset or because you see some advantage to your career in the long-term or finances in the short term, then apply. Don’t think about it as a “reset” and/or trying to impress your bosses. Think about it as trying to make yourself the most attractive candidate you can to *all* your future employers.

          If you have no desire to do the job in your current department, it seems like a waste of time putting in months or years with them in the hopes that they’ll eventually figure out they can’t live without you. The benefits thing is a bit sticky and scary, but this doesn’t have to be a binary situation: stay and get promoted or go and start over. You could be a permalance employee for years for no benefits. You could move and impress some random VP from a different company. You could win the lottery.

          But to reiterate what other commenters have said, “loyalty” is rarely going to be a quality that gets you promoted. Professionalism, demand for your skill set, and a great resume will.

    10. learnedthehardway*

      You don’t really need to go through an outside recruiter for this other position within the same company for which you are working. In fact, because you are already a contractor with the company, your employer would very likely not pay two companies for representing you. Look up the job on the employer career site and let your manager know that you’d be really interested in being considered for it. Would your manager support your candidacy?

      If yes, you’re golden. If no, for whatever reason (eg. your department needs you too much), you weren’t going to get that role anyway.

      It may be that you ultimately end up in the role, and your payroll may get run through this other contracting company, so to not burn that bridge, I’d tell the recruiters approaching you that you’ve already been aware of the position and are looking into it from within the organization, but that you appreciate their call.

      1. Dragoning*

        I think you are confused.

        I am not, technically, an employee of any kind with this company–I am employed by and paid by a contracting firm, who they pay a fee to, to handle my employment.

        This position I’m interested in is of the same nature. There is no looking into the position from within. It is not being offered as an internal position.

        I could, maybe, bring it up with my contact at the contracting firm, but I have no idea how to begin to approach that conversation, either.

    11. LaDeeDa*

      I totally disagree with your father– in most companies now there is a push for “global knowledge”. Global means a lot of different things to different companies- but it boils down they want leaders who have a broader range of knowledge and experience in the whole company and the industry. In your father’s day being really good at your job in your department was enough to make you a leader– not anymore.
      Get experience anywhere and everywhere you can. And if the recruiters thought the managers wouldn’t like it- they wouldn’t be reaching out to you, if they make the managers mad they will know it.

    12. Binky*

      Can you talk to the hiring manager who gave you the bonus? Depending on how well the departments work together, maybe she and your current manager can work out what amounts to a transfer, even if you have to jump through some contractor hoops to get there.

      I think that moving departments sounds like a good idea, and I don’t think you need to worry about “loyalty,” but some sensitivity to the fact that you’d be making an internal move may benefit you. To me, that sensitivity would take the form of not blindsiding your current manager, so long as you don’t have to worry about your manager being a jerk (obviously, do what you need to do if your manager is a jerk).

    13. Not Gary, Gareth*

      So reading through this and the comments, let me see if I’m understanding correctly:

      It sounds like this other job is a job you would like better, or at least the same amount. You already know the new department likes you/your work. New Department would be more likely to open you up to career advancement (though not guaranteed, of course).

      Current Department likes your work. You like them well enough but don’t really want to stay there forever or move up the ranks there, which doesn’t seem likely to happen anyway. You don’t want them to think you’re job-searching, because you’re not really – you’re just interested in the one, possibly, and you don’t want to give them any reason to think you want out (I assume?).

      Additionally, because you’re a contractor, you’re not actually employed by this company – and I think it sounds like you’d have to switch contracting companies to apply for this other job?

      Assuming the above is more or less true, here’s my advice: Apply for the dang job! Your dad is giving you bad advice that basically amounts to “You should limit your potential and stifle your ambitions for the benefit of your current employer.” Maybe this wasn’t always the case but the notion that employers reward loyalty is, at best, badly outdated. (And I’m willing to bet it was never all that true to begin with. The words “Triangle Shirtwaist Factory” come to mind.) And even if he’s right – what reward would you get from your current job that would make passing up this opportunity worthwhile?

      Additionally, on the off chance he’s talking about loyalty to the contracting company and not the department you work in: they’re a contracting company. I work for a temp agency – which, admittedly, is a different industry – but at least in temping we all understand that folks are going to be working with multiple agencies. And often job-searching on their own as well. Assuming contracting is even slightly the same, I don’t think the question of ‘loyalty’ to your current firm is even really a question at all. They should know you’re an independent agent, and that you have the prerogative to change up your working situation anytime you feel like it. It might be worthwhile to tell the new firm “Hey, I already work for this company in a different department through [CurrentFirm] and I don’t want to jeopardize my work there, is it possible to ask for discretion during the application and interview process? I am interested in this job, but obviously I want to keep my current one if it doesn’t work out.”

      TL;DR: Your dad’s advice is bad, some nebulous concept of ‘loyalty’ is a silly reason to hold yourself back from advancement, you should totally go for it.

    14. Armchair Analyst*

      Will your current employer, who arranged this 1st position that you’re at with the client company, think less of you or make your life difficult?
      I am unclear if you’d be moving to a different employer for this next contracting position. If so, that could fall under some sort of don’t-work-for-our-competitor clause.
      Something to consider.
      Good luck.

      1. Dragoning*

        I checked the contract–there’s nothing like that in there as far as I can tell.

        Right now, switching contracting employers is my plan–I don’t really know how to go about addressing “hey can I switch contracts after they just extended it” with them. They certainly have not offered me this position and have no real incentive to do so, when I already have a position and they could in theory place a second person in the new one.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          I don’t have much to add except to ask if the parent/client company you’re working at (versus the contracting firm that is paying you) allows contractors to switch firms without requiring a break period (3 months, 6 months, etc)? If no such penalty exists, I say shoot your shot!

          Good luck!

    15. Not So Little My*

      I’ve moved between contracting and full-time employment in a variety of companies for the last 20 years. Gaining new skills by trying different teams/positions in the same company is actually considered quite valuable as it gives you a breadth of skills and connections. You should always move to increase your knowledge and leverage any opportunities to do so. Your father’s ideas are from about 50 years ago and you should not give them any credence.

  14. Seifer*

    My boss is going to be on location for four months starting in about a week and a half and my cube mate and I are panicking because that means that basically, we are running the department. Yesterday we had a ‘pray for us in the hour of our deaths’ moment. Today we may drink.

    Unrelated: how long does it usually take you to stop writing the previous year? I’ve written and scribbled out ‘_ January 2018’ more times than I can count by now.

    1. Audrey Puffins*

      I’m very good at getting the year right in the first few months of a new year, but I did have an extended phase a few weeks back where I couldn’t stop myself writing 2014. Explain that one! :)

      1. Seifer*

        That happened to me too! Not a few weeks back but when it was 2017, I started writing 2014! I guess I was in denial about 2014-2016?? Not my best years, so maybe I was onto something, ha!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It depends on the year for me, weirdly. I have better luck with odd years than even. So far I’ve been ok, though I haven’t actually written the new date, just typed it. I felt so accomplished when I labeled a file with “1.2.19”. Little things!

      1. Wulfgar*

        I like odd numbers and have found that I also remember the new year better in odd years. Weird but true.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m actually having the reverse problem – for the last 10 months, I’ve been entering dates in excel as MM/DD and leaving Excel to fill in the year, but it enters current year so I keep having to go back and change December dates from 2019 to 2018. (I tend to be reviewing documents that are 4-8 weeks old.)

      2. Blarg*

        YES. This is making me crazy. My “type slightly fewer digits” is now “type a crap ton extra” when my formulas calculate an event that took 4 days over the new year to be -361 days.

    4. EnfysNest*

      Thanks for the reminder to check the date – I’m working on a stack of paperwork right now and all of it says 1/4/18 and I hadn’t even noticed. Whoops!

      1. Seifer*

        Haha oh no! I’ve caught it on a couple of other papers that people have given me too. All the white out thing are suspiciously missing from the supply cabinet, so I guess we’re not the only ones with this problem.

    5. Sara without an H*

      Re dates: it usually takes me about a week.

      As for the other issue: Have a briefing meeting with your manager, then try not to worry excessively. She probably has more confidence in you than you do.

      1. Seifer*

        You’re lucky with the dates! I like to think of myself as an organized person but come January, I have papers from January previous year and January current year everywhere. But they were all from yesterday. Fail.

        Eeeeek. He does indeed have more confidence in me than me. I think we’ll be okay but I think it’s just the reality of the situation finally sinking in… we’ve known for about a month now and have been having briefing meetings since then.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      Since I’m very concerned about upcoming schedule, I’ve been learning to write 2019 for the past couple of months and am pretty much in the habit of it.

      There were some times, though, where all dates – the December ones and the January and February ones – were all 2018. At one point it seemed like it would have been easier to leave the year off and let people figure it out by context.

    7. LizB*

      I am at this moment in the midst of re-printing a flyer that should have been titled “January 2019 Teapot Trainings” but… was not. The wrong version has been up for three days before any of us noticed it said 2018. *facepalm*

    8. Hallowflame*

      It usually takes me a couple of months, but that’s mostly because I work in accounting, so all through January I’ll be typing and writing 2018 as we close the books on the previous year!

    9. :-)*

      Every beginning of the year I take a spare piece of paper (the backside of a bill that came in the post, or even a page of a newspaper) and write it full with the year, 2019 in this case. If you write it a few dozen times, it’s all about the movement.

      I think you can do the same with typing? Open a document and only type the year a few dozen times?

    11. Hamburke*

      I’m still processing 2018 items (invoices, payroll, etc) but QuickBooks is ahead of me -instead of typing m/d, I have to go m/d/y which I forget to do and get beeped at for trying to add something more than 30 days in the future…someday soon I’ll be writing 2019!

      Usually by March I have it sorted out in my brain to write the correct date.

  15. But you don't have an accent...*

    I’m thinking about applying for an open internal position, but am worried it’s going to be a drastic pay cut. I’m willing to take up to a certain amount – but is there a polite way to ask the hiring manager what the salary range is before I apply? I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, and if I end up applying I have to have sign off from my boss.

    1. Audrey Puffins*

      I think what you have there is fine – you politely ask “could I ask what the salary range is before I apply? I don’t want to waste anyone’s time” should be plenty!

      1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

        I agree with this. It sounds like you might already have relationships built, so a e-mail asking about range before applying should go fine.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          No, don’t do this via e-mail. It is unlikely that the hiring manager wants to put this in writing. Go ask face-to-face.

          1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

            At some point, they’re gonna have to put it in writing? And it’s probably already in writing with HR when they negotiated out the position creation? At least, where I am, if you make a position, you set down the salary range.

      2. Doug Judy*

        At old job we could just ask HR, “Hey what is the salary range for X position?” and they would give the bottom, mid and high.
        If you don’t know the hiring manger well, just check with HR. They might be more open than the hiring manager because hiring managers can sometimes are afraid to state a number.

    2. kbeers0su*

      I teach people how not to get in trouble, and then when they ignore what I told them, I investigate them and fire them.

    3. Alice Ulf*

      I make sure the good peoples get in and the problematic peoples stay out. Current success rate around 50 percent. :P

  16. CatCat*

    I saw this in a social media group I’m in and the results were hilarious so I thought it would be fun to do here:

    Badly explain your profession. Go.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I tell people how to avoid dying and how to keep their customers from dying.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        An attorney who helped me with some estate stuff, told me the same thing about his job. “I call people up and tell them how to do their jobs”, he said. And from what I saw that was about right.

      1. Cowgirlinhiding*

        Me too. I am always in the way, making things harder than they should be and talking too much.

      1. Greymalk*

        Me too! I encourage things to rot and then show it to others… then later they encourage things to rot and show me….

    8. Frea*

      I correct people with PhDs and way more degrees than me, and they like it.

      NightJob: I put in hundreds of hours of work on a product, give it to a near stranger to give to other strangers, and hope I make money off of it someday. Despite this being a largely solitary profession, I’m expected to be social and charming for the Brand(tm).

        1. Frea*

          Nope! The near stranger happens to be my agent, who is lovely but pretty hands off—and also trying to sell my book. :)

      2. Office Gumby*

        That’s my night job as well. Oh yeah, you forgot the part where we don’t get paid for the hundreds of hours we put in.

    9. Skipp*

      I set people up on blind dates where they will be pressured to give large amounts of money for nothing in return

    10. Meredith Brooks*

      I’m a babysitter. If you’re a good kid, I tell everyone I know. If you’re a bad kid, I try to prevent you from setting the house on fire.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        I quite literally did this at one time. I was an inventory analyst for a grain elevator and processing plant.

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I take medical documentation and turn it into medical bills. (That is, when there IS documentation. Which there often isn’t.)

        1. Mrs. Fenris*

          Ha! Fenris is an appraiser. He gets to tell people that they aren’t going to get a fortune out of their house.

    14. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I stare at glowing rectangles for hours at a time. Then I go home, and stare at different glowing rectangles.

      1. Fiona*

        Oooooh same.

        I move the pictures around on the rectangles. Then I go home and watch the pictures that someone else moved around for me.

        1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

          I saw yours and was like “jinx!” :D

          I made a toolkit to specifications. Then they wanted it shorter. I made a quick short guide. Then they wanted it shorter. Then that suddenly got passed around as “here are the 3 best practices, do _all_ of them” (physically impossible). Me: nooooooooooooooooooooooo.

    19. it_guy*

      I get to tell people what they can’t have and why I won’t give it to them in ways they can’t understand.

    22. Archaeologist*

      I used to dig holes and fill them back in again. Now I give people money to do that, and sometimes even more money to not dig holes at all.

      2. Also an Archaeologist*

        I was going to go with “I dig up dead people” or “digging ditches, but with a degree”, but I like this one too.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I dig holes, put the contents in plastic bags or sometimes buckets, draw pictures, and fill out forms that somebody will have to decipher next year when I’m working for someone else.

      1. Susan*

        Me too.

        A conversation from a few years ago, re: asks.

        Internal customer: I want a pony
        My job: You can’t have a pony
        IC: Can my pony be white?
        My job: You can’t have a pony
        IC: How about a black pony?
        MJ: NO PONIES
        IC: Unicorn?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Someone mentioned ponies on FB this morning and I flashed back to this. It’s memorable!

    26. BeanCat*

      I process air vibrations that come from a lump of plastic on my desk and send those air vibrations to other people.

    28. Drax*

      Everything is on fire, I put out the biggest ones first while trying to keep the feral kittens in line.

          1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

            Functionally yes. Mostly I’m the person that has flaming piles of poo dropped in their lap and makes it better regardless of what my job and department is.

      1. designbot*

        Ooh, and I tell them how to get out if it burns anyway! Also how to use buildings in general.

      1. Yeah, no...*

        Same. But not the fun kind where you get to buy products and keep them and get paid to do it.

    35. AnotherAlison*

      I ask people if they are done with the stuff I told them to do, tell them they need to be done, and then I report back to clients that we will be done soon.

    39. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I give people money, but also take people’s money away when they don’t open their mail.

    42. kbeers0su*

      I teach people how not to get in trouble, and then when they ignore what I told them, I investigate them and fire them.

    43. Nerfmobile*

      I talk a lot to people about how things on computers should work, but don’t actually make them work that way.
      [user experience manager]

    47. Seifer*

      I tell the c-suite how behind we are and listen to them squawk about loss of profit. Then I move the beans around so that it looks like we’re at least breaking even.

      2. librarygal30*

        I also tell them where to find reliable information, when they are doing things at 2AM the day a thing is due…

    50. Sammie*

      I do things for people that everyone else thinks they should be able to do for themselves.

      And, yes, this is hilarious. Thank you!

    51. Sybil Carpenter*

      I act as a middle man to help people find information that they can easily find themselves.

    52. Asperger Hare*

      I exchange more and more fraught emails with people who want to get to C without passing A and B, until the deadline passes and we all give up.

    54. roisin54*

      I answer questions, get yelled at when I don’t answer them the way the asker wants, try to convince people to use something here other than the free Internet, and try to avoid exploding in rage everytime a manager derides an aspect of my job.

    57. Alice Ulf*

      I make sure the good peoples get in and the problematic peoples stay out. Current success rate around 50 percent. :P

    58. The Tin Man*

      I help keep track of piles of rocks and tanks of sticky stuff. I also track and correctly allocate the costs of making sticky rocks.

    59. Kat in VA*

      I micromanage the professional and sometimes personal lives of four men who are definitely old enough and skilled enough to do it themselves, as well as dispense calendar appointments, lunches, plane tickets, wisdom, reports, and a supportive yet occasionally critical ear in equal increments.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Heh, I’m a mom to four kids ranging from 20 to 9…honestly, this job isn’t a whole lot different than managing a large household in my opinion. The fact that I get paid for it just makes it even better!

      2. Sammie*

        Me too! And you put it so much better than I did! Although I will say that I get to micromanage the lives of some very nice people so that makes it a little better. I will also add that I am a VERY critical ear at times. Can’t possibly let me ‘charges’ make big mistakes.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Oh, yes. I try to not let my more “exuberant” boss get ahead of himself, to the point of saying things like, “You just can’t call out [Director] in the staff meeting like that, it humiliated him and embarrassed him and it doesn’t do anything but piss him off and make him resent you.”

          What I love is ExuberantBoss will listen, digest what I say, and then either offer a rebuttal or (more often! amazing!) say, “Yep, you’re right, I gotta watch that” or whatever. And then do it! I am so happy I have a boss who actually LISTENS when I answer a request for input, who regards my input to be at least somewhat equivalent to his own, and will act on suggestions/commentary/critique like an ADULT.

          WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT

          Also, because in a de facto way, this boss is like one of my children, and I want him to do well so I try to facilitate that as much as I can!

    62. Venus*

      This is the description given to me when I started many years ago:

      We help people make bad decisions, when otherwise worse decisions would have been made.

    63. Mrs. Fenris*

      I tell people that their beloved pet is going to die, or it’s not going to die but it’s going to cost a fortune, or both. And then I do a bunch of tiring stuff, and then I write it all down.

    64. SignalLost*

      I figure out how to make naked begging for money and laws both palatable and pretty. I herd angry cats until they give me updates on exactly the same things they gave me updates on last month and then I update people who don’t care. I convert text into pretty forms on your personal glowing box. I stop people from buying llamas and sloths just because llamas and sloths are hot right now. They have never noticed that we don’t have stabling for llamas and sloths. Sometimes I let people buy giraffes but then I have to make giraffe saddles.

      1. Princess of Pure Reason*

        Me too! I tell doctors how they’re doing their science and ethics wrong and how to do them better.

    66. Decima Dewey*

      I plead with people to put in requests for stuff we don’t have that they want so we can get them, decide how to spend money that’s not mine, and every month show my boss how to do stuff I could do better but it’s his job to do it.

      1. Yeah, no...*

        Fellow buyer/procurement officer…this is why I’m the no person :) Can’t have it if you didn’t ask me for it like I said you had to!

    67. Ranon*

      I ask lots of questions so that I can provide English to English translation services between different groups of people, sometimes using pictures.

    68. But you don't have an accent...*

      I find polite ways to tell people their processes are dumb and make buttons appear in the user interface.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I’m very curious about your username, because I’m not from the US but I have got that phrase a lot when visiting there, What’s up with that.

        1. But you don't have an accent...*

          I am from a Southern state in the US, and when I first got to college, when I would tell people where I was from, the first thing they would say is “But you don’t have an accent” in a “there’s no way you’re from [state] because everyone from [state] has the same exact accent” type of way.

    69. Karen from Finance*

      I argue with people so they will give me the data I need to give them the data they need.

    70. Pamelynn*

      I talk people off cliffs, herd cats, arrange play dates, answer noise maker, and handle other items flung my way.

    71. Extra vitamins*

      I make balls move around inside a computer. Later, I make movies of the balls to show to managers.

    72. The New Wanderer*

      Mostly I’m the living embodiment of “Let Me Google That For You”. But I also write articles few people read about effects few people care about.

    75. Canadian Natasha*

      I make people souvenirs so they can show and tell what kind of trouble they got in. Then I tell random strangers all about it (but only when they ask properly). I also tell people about all the bad things that will happen to them if they don’t pay up.

    76. Bee's Knees*

      This week? People yell at me and I agree with them. Normally it’s paying people money that’s not mine, and explaining how much they can get hurt and still get paid. And being a giver of candy.

    77. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I do tedious tasks that a group of people hope will eventually benefit people with cancer.

      Previous jobs
      2001-2013: I get scratched and bitten for a living
      1995-2001: I work with the colors, and the shapes*
      *This was actually how a salesperson referred to me to a client, “This is SoBTM – she, uh, works with the colors, and the shapes…”

    78. I See Real People*

      I am the gatekeeper for an overgrown toddler’s fortress, in which tantrums are thrown daily.

    79. Kes*

      I write things in languages that nobody speaks. I also take things that don’t work and try to make them work, sometimes accidentally making other parts not work in the process.

    80. Anonyby*

      I pound at a computer, with occasional breaks to hand out checks to people after checking in with the coworker that babysits them and makes sure they do what they’re legally required to do.

    84. Lora*

      Depending on who you ask, I’m either Jesse Pinkman or Jose “El Mexicano” Gonzalo Rodriguez Gacha or the source of all autism in the world.

    87. NoMercy*

      I make molehills out of mountains and provide a place for the partner and manager monkeys to throw their stress feces which I, in turn, use to fertilize my anxiety garden. The benefits are great here though.

    88. I should be working ...*

      I work for the overlords where I tell a hated part of the overlords why a hated industry should give their profits to their shareholders instead of the overlords.

    90. RedSoxFan*

      I do all the things in my department that no one else wants to do. Mainly with Excel. And a letter opener.

    93. From the High Tower on the Hill*

      I convince idiots to change things that affect 6 million people, usually while doing a crossword. The joys of being a lobbyist.

    94. Princess Scrivener*

      I listen a lot, google a lot, then draft things that more-highly-paid people (with bad writing skills) read and try to improve. Then I roll my eyes and edit the things.

    98. Anon attorney*

      I help people extract the maximum possible amount of money from the person they used to love most in the world.

    99. coffee cup*

      I help to maintain the pretence that people care that medical reports are well written/presented.

    100. Rache*

      My full time job is saving time for more important people. My side job is rubbing people with lotion and oil so they stop hurting. :)

    101. Not So NewReader*

      I explain to people, “No, you can’t have it your way here. We do not deal in fast food. At all.”

    102. Fact & Fiction*

      By day I make up cr@p for my company’s website to make people CLICK THE SHINY on the SERPs.

      By night I make up cr@p with things like magic and mythological creatures in the real world or really awesome future technology wherein I do a lot of hand-waving and pop in a ton of explosions, battles, angst for the characters, but eventual happy endings.

      Too bad only one of those professions is currently providing me money. Alas, for my poor stalled publishing career.

    106. Gumby*

      I tell people they have neither the time nor the money to do what they want to do.

      But my favorite is a former co-worker who would have conversations like:
      A: What do you do?
      B: I’m a typist.
      A: Oh, what do you type?
      B: Mostly select *

    107. Kathleen_A*

      I. Love. This. Thread.

      But that’s not what I do for a living. What I do for a living is ask people who have arcane and/or technical knowledge to explain stuff to me, and then I in turn try to explain it to other people in such a way that they aren’t bored to DEATH.

      Also, I often point an expensive and fragile device at people, landscapes and things and try to make it produce attractive or illustrative images.

    108. Chaordic One*

      I always remember my late great uncle explaining that his granddaughter (my cousin) was a “crazy doctor.”

      My cousin is a psychiatrist, and whether or not she is crazy is debatable.

      1. Venus*

        This (un?)intentional play on words reminds me of an elderly friend of the family who occasionally commented on how a local house reminded her of the ‘dirty bra shop’ in her childhood village.

        It turns out that it wasn’t a social statement. The owner just never cleaned the place. It wasn’t a shop with dirty bras, but rather a dirty shop with bras.

        Sorry if this seems totally out of place! It makes me laugh every time I think of it, and hopefully you don’t mind my attempt at sharing humour.

    110. TechWorker*

      I explain to customers why they don’t really want what they think they want. And I teach newbies how to not look stupid.

    111. Small-town dr*

      I give advice for people to ignore. I cut folks open and take out parts that are a problem. I look at lady bits, both happy and unhappy.

    113. Beatrice*

      I explain our operations to our customers and sales people.
      I explain our customer base and sales strategy to our operations people.
      I explain our technology to everyone outside IT.
      I explain everyone outside IT to IT.
      I manage eight people who do the same, at a more limited level.
      Every decision I make enrages some or all of the groups above, and they yell at me.
      Every decision I make thrills at least one of the groups above, and they praise me.

    114. Lurk Til I Can’t Help Myself*

      I talk to people about their feels, and how to make bad ones into good or better ones.

    121. Tedious Cat*

      I go through lawyers’ work looking for mistakes and if they’re bad enough, I get to call them and embarrass them.

    122. zaracat*

      I rummage around inside people while they’re asleep and then sneak away to write up the bill for them before they wake up.

      1. Ali in London*

        I tell professionals things they ought to already know about how to behave properly towards the people they serve.

    126. silverpie*

      (hobby, as I’m currently not employed):

      First, I take a bunch of numbers, make pictures so people can understand them, and send them out. Then I teach my machines to do the same. Thing.

    129. paxfelis*

      I ask people to move their clothes, put stickers on them, and see how energetic parts of them are.

    130. Snazzy Hat*

      My main tasks: I look at only a few pages out of documents which range from 30 to 300 pages long, then type a few details from the pages I actually looked at. I acknowledge that people pay property taxes. Some days, I figure out why particular strings of numbers are wrong.

      My sister sells drugs and stabs people, mainly children and the elderly.

    131. All Stitched Up*

      I learn 2-4 things that are basically unrelated to each other for three months at a time, then switch to a different set of things every ~3 months, so that when we have too much water I can make it go elsewhere.

    132. Office Gumby*

      I transcribe the biographies of people who don’t exist, then try to convince others to read them.

  17. Reg Poster - Combative Employee and Manager*

    I have an employee who has a combative personality, but is good at the client-facing duties. The employee’s Manager is not addressing these performance issues. Manager’s failure to address the personality originated from the manager’s naturally mediator type personality, and that the employee is abrasive, and that the employee made unsubstantiated allegations of discrimination. Please take the investigation at face value. I have thoroughly evaluated this. I understand how to manage the investigation, and unsubstantiated allegations. I’m struggling with how to coach this manager. What advice do you have for me?

    1. DC*

      Is this a personality change, or has this always been a problem? If it’s the former, you may need the manager to ask if there is anything going on with the employee: They may be burned out, dealing with other issues, etc, that may be impacting their personality. If it’s the latter, use Alison’s “You need to be straightforward and blunt and not dance around it” scripts.

      1. valentine*

        Why keep the employee? Are they so exceptional with clients, it’s worth making the person they lied about coaching them to behave professionally?

      2. Chaordic One*

        Yes, you should follow DC’s recommendations and find out what is going on with the employee. If it is something like burn out (because of an unrealistic workload or overwork) then getting rid of the employee won’t solve the problem for very long. The problem will fall on that employee’s replacement who will also become burnt-out (although that replacement employee may cope with burn out better, or not). I’ve worked for employers where they burn through a lot of different people before they realize that the problem isn’t really with a particular person, but with the workload and expectations of a particular position.

    2. Teapot librarian*

      Um, are you my new boss? Though I’m not sure I would describe Hoarder as “combative”–and is only questionably good at client-facing duties–this could be me.

    3. LKW*

      Well I think you have to acknowledge that the manager needs support to avoid another discrimination investigation and so define an approach that gives the manager the support needed. That could mean always having a third person in the room when the manager gives feedback to the employee, like you or HR.

      Second, I think you can approach the situation from an impact stand point. What is the impact to getting the work done? Is it being held up because of disagreements, miscommunications, resentment, team friction? What is the impact to morale? Is there a chance that really good employees will leave because they have to deal with an ass? Help the manager understand this isn’t strictly a personnel issue, it has an impact on productivity, quality and the bottom line. As a steward of the company, the manager has to remove those barriers to the best of their ability or escalate if needed.

    4. Observer*

      Firstly, stop framing this or even referring to this as a personality issue. There are plenty of abrasive people who don’t make unsubstantiated accusations.

      What is your role here?

      If it’s just to deal with the allegations and potential fall out you need to figure out whether the allegations could have been made in good faith, or had to have been a deliberate falsehood. If the latter, you need to loop in your legal side because handling those can actually get tricky. Otherwise, you need to loop in Manager’s manager, and coach manager that they need to be aware that you have conducted the investigation and that the allegations are not substantiated. Which means that manager needs to prevent Employee from taking negative action against the subject of the accusations.

      If your role is broader and includes actually managing Manager, you need to coach the manager that they need to start managing the problematic inter-personal behavior. Again, it’s not a “personality” issue. It’s a matter of this person being rude, not cooperating with work, making false accusations etc. which are diverting resources and making it difficult for people to do their jobs.

    5. CAA*

      If Manager was the subject of the unsubstantiated allegations, then recognize that Manager is in a very difficult situation as she has to keep managing a person who made false accusations against her. Make sure she knows that you understand that and have her back.

      For how to coach Manager, ask her if she recognizes this problematic behavior by Employee (don’t call it a personality problem, it’s a behavior problem) and make sure she agrees with you that there’s an issue there. Once that’s established, role play with her so she sees how you would like her to handle Employee the next time the poor behavior occurs.

      If you want Manager to put Employee on a PIP, then she should have backup in the room for that discussion, whether it’s you or HR.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Stick to the facts.
      Discrimination has these characteristics (list characteristics).
      In order for a claim to be actionable it must have (list what must be shown for an actionable claim).

      Have the manager say, “We take all complaints of discrimination seriously. Let’s review what goes into an actionable complaint and talk about each item on that list in regard to your complaint.” Then at the end, “I am going to give you a copy of this list so you can watch for yourself. If you have any new information to add, please come tell me as soon as possible.”

      If manager is a mediator, then perhaps he is good at explaining things. Give him the info that he needs to explain when the company takes action on a discrimination complaint. What elements need to be present?
      Make sure the person feels heard. This can mean saying several times “we take discrimination complaints seriously” and “I want to hear any further developments”. With difficult people, I have always felt that leaving the door open for further discussion later seems to DE-accelerate the situation.

      Oddly, sometimes going right into the thick of it with a difficult person seems to cause their energy levels to go down. By going into the thick of it, I mean sitting down with a witness person plus the complainant and discussing the particulars of the complaint. Sitting with note pads seems to make the meeting feel more serious.

      Some folks may say, “Well this adds credence to their complaint.” Yes and no. In the context of the meeting it will come to light that their specific complaint is not actionable, so no credence added there. But the meeting itself can tend to telegraph to the person that they are heard and people are listening and taking the complaint seriously.

      I would strongly urge you to consider having a third party sit in on this meeting. It could be the manager’s boss or a senior HR person. Chose that third person wisely.

  18. Happy Friday*

    It will really depend on the licensing requirements in each state. In my state, most occupational licenses include a criminal background check, and the agency should be able to tell you which crimes are considered to be serious enough to keep you out of the profession. My state will also do a pre-evaluation letter for you so that you do not spend a bunch of time/money on education only to end up unable to obtain a license. So he really needs to check out the requirements for the state he is interested in practicing in.

  19. Am I A Bad Referral Friend?*

    A friend and I job-hunted together in September. I was lucky enough to get a job at a company by the end of the month, and my friend found a position a few weeks later. However, due to internal drama, her company laid her off three weeks later (through no fault of her own). They reposted the same position but asking for a master’s degree this time (which my friend does not have—in fact, her main goal is to earn enough money to go to grad school.)

    So, crappy situation. I told her my company is hiring and pretty rapidly, too. I’ve been happy working with them and it offers a good salary with good benefits. She applied to the company in early December for a different position than mine. I’m now suspecting that position is way more competitive than I expected. It’s now January. She has not heard back from my company and wants me to talk to the main hiring person here to put in a good word for her.

    We’re both fresh out of college. This is my second real job ever. I have no relationship whatsoever with the person in charge of hiring, and I have no idea how to put in a good word for her. I’m not even sure what goes into a good reference; I’ve never worked with this friend in any professional capacity. Should I suck it up and ask the hiring person what the process is for putting in a reference for a job candidate? Or is there a better approach I should take?

    1. Joielle*

      I don’t think you should try to be a reference in this situation. The hiring manager doesn’t know you and has no reason to trust your judgment, and you’ve never worked with your friend, so you don’t have much to say about her that would be useful in this context anyways. You’d be a complete stranger, basically just saying that you know this person and she’s nice. It has the potential to make you look out of touch with professional norms, while having almost no potential to help your friend. I’d just tell your friend that you’ll let her know if you hear anything about the position (which you probably won’t, but you never know), and maybe pass on some interviewing tips based on your own interview experience if she gets that far.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I think you’ve done what you can. If you don’t have any relationship with the hiring manager then it might come off as awkward and you haven’t been there long enough to have earned that kind of capital. Your company is most likely still evaluating you as a new employee and even if your friend would be a perfect fit for the job, they (your company) might not take your word for it yet.

      As for your friend you could explain that you don’t have any working relationship with the hiring manager and you will keep your ears and eyes open for any positions she would be good for. Once you’re there longer if she’s still searching you may be able to recommend her for something specific should it come up in conversation at work. Ex your manager says ‘Oh Jane in HR is hiring for a new X position.’ and you can reply with ‘Oh I know someone who might be good at that if you’re interested.’ and then go from there.

      1. Am I A Bad Referral Friend?*

        That definitely seems like sound advice, and I’ll do that going forward. Now to have the awkward convo explaining that to my friend :(

        1. De-Archivist*

          I don’t want to tell you to not be awkward because I don’t think that will help, but before you go talk to your friend, think about reframing what this conversation needs to be. You’re not failing your friend by not reaching out, and it’s possible that you’re both new enough in your careers to not understand that reaching out to a superior you don’t know about someone you’ve never actually worked with isn’t going to fly at best and might be something NOT DONE at your company. You’re not a bad friend. You gave your friend a job lead that didn’t pan it. It happens.

          Next time she brings it up, say, “I’m really sorry, but I don’t know the person doing the hiring well-enough to influence hiring decisions, and I’m so new to the company, I doubt that my opinion would carry any weight.”

          That said, it’s not unusual for hiring to drag out over the holidays, so she might, possibly still be in the running, master’s or no. But, I’d advise you to advise your friend in the meantime that there’s no reason not to continue to job search and not get stuck on the job that got away.

          1. Am I A Bad Referral Friend?*

            Thank you, thank you, thank you! I’ll use that script with some flexibility for her. I really appreciate your insights!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think this depends on the size of your company. I used to work for a very large company and our HR department handled referrals all the time; you didn’t have to provide any kind of reference but you could pass along a resume. It was a simple as, “Someone I know is applying for X job, just want to make sure her resume gets into the right hands.” I did this a few times; I emailed the recruiter who handled my interview process and asked her what the procedure was, and she said to just send it. However, I would not have done this with a hiring manager for a specific position. I think it’s ok if you’re talking a big HR/recruiting department, but not ok if it’s a small group in a smaller company.

      One time, a woman I was acquainted with bugged me to get her resume to a hiring manager. I told her I could send the resume directly to HR but that was all, so I did. I think I even wrote, “I have never worked with her in any kind of professional capacity, but here you go,” wiped my hands of it. I believe she was interviewed but was considered overqualified. On the other hand, I once got to know a recent grad when she reached out for an informational interview and she really impressed me. When my department was hiring, I sent her resume to the hiring manager with a note about how I knew her. She got that job (and I got a referral bonus, which I used to take her out to dinner). So there’s referral and there’s recommendation, which are two different things.

      1. Am I A Bad Referral Friend?*

        That’s super helpful, thank you! I especially felt uncomfortable because I lack any formal experience with my friend so I literally have no idea what she’d be like in a professional environment. But you also have given me hope for my partner who’s doing informational interviews every week as part of his own job search. Hoping the stars align and someone passes along his resume like you’ve done for others.

        Thanks again!

        1. Venus*

          I was thinking of something similar. I think it would be reasonable to go to HR and say that you have a fellow student who is bright, and they applied for this job, and while you haven’t worked with them professionally could HR at least confirm that they received the application? I think the recommend vs referral distinction is a good one, as you know them well enough to think that the company should consider them.

    5. MistOrMister*

      I wouldn’t approach the hiring manager for 2 main reasons 1) you don’t know him/her and 2) you have only been working there 3-4 months. That isn’t generally long enough for your recommendations to carry a lot of weight when you’re someone in what I’m assuming is a junior position. Add that to the fact that you have never worked with this friend and can’t speak to her work ethic or abilities you aren’t going to be able to give a very good reference. (In this case I mean good as in what would really be helpful from a hiring manager’s standpoint, not that you couldn’t have plenty of positive things to say).

      Also, the holidays could be working against her in that people involved in the hiring/interviewing process might have been out of the office and be causing delays. I would suggest she be prepared to assume she’s not going to get an interview and move on. I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to recommend her based on your current situation and it could make you look a little out of touch if you do.

    6. Temit*

      For good friends who ask, I will offer to walk over their resume to the hiring manager, even if I don’t know them, because for all I know my friend could be the answer to someone’s prayers.

      But I only ask the hiring manager to consider my friends resume/application and no more. Applying online is a fickle process and once you hit submit in an online recruitment tool, there is no way of confirming that a decision maker has actually seen your resume. There is usually a search bot looking for the highest % match of key words at the first hurdle, then an HR associate who only has a job description to determine a short list of candidates for the hiring manager. Who’s to say the best person for the job is the one whose resume is trapped in cyberspace?

      Its an excuse to introduce yourself to a hiring manager in your company, and give your friend’s application a real shot at an opportunity. I don’t see a downside.

  20. DaniCalifornia*

    I am back in tax season. This will be my 8th one (and hopefully my last!) Everyone else in accounting/taxes/CPA/etc ready for it? Getting your coping strategies ready? The client influx has already begun and this is the third day we’ve been back lol!

    This year I’m practicing my mantras of “Not my circus, not my monkeys!” and “I can’t control if my coworker complains incessantly about clients all day but I can control how I respond.”

    1. Laura*

      I’m a volunteer preparer with VITA. Our training is tomorrow (this is my 8th year). We have a new leader for our four county area. I’m in the suburbs and it was scheduled 45 minutes at 8:30 Saturday morning. My evaluation will include “don’t start things on Saturday prior to 9am)

    2. Pregnant Not Glowing*

      I am currently 14 weeks pregnant. I had a terrible first trimester and my second trimester is better but not without some symptoms. I work an okay but very stressful job (I am perpetually stressed about work) which is compounded by the fact that I can’t take my ADHD or migraine medication. I can’t leave my job because of the year long employment requirement for FMLA. Anyone have some good recommendations on how to manage all of this? I’m crying a couple times a week because of work.

      Thanks!

    3. roisin54*

      I work at a public library, and am dreading the coming onslaught of “when are the tax forms coming in?” and “why don’t you have [insert form number here]?” and “can you help me do my taxes?”

      And with all the tax code changes…it’s going to be even worse. I suspect I’m going to be spending a lot of time explaining why there are no 1040A and 1040EZ forms.

      1. Duck Duck Goose*

        One of my friends has been working at our public library for years. She texted me her first day back and said “We’ve already gotten four calls about tax forms” God speed!!!

      2. Decima Dewey*

        I expect to have that conversation a lot. To make it even better, Pennsylvania has decided not to send paper copies of any forms or the rent rebate forms. All this stuff is going to be available online.

        I’ve already overheard a conversation I expect to have myself repeatedly before April 15th (I was playing patron at another branch on my day off):

        PATRON: When will you be getting Pennsylvania tax forms?

        LIBRARIAN: Pennsylvania will not be sending forms to libraries this year. Forms will be available online.

        PATRON: What about the big downtown library?

        LIBRARIAN (repeats what she said before)

        PATRON: What about post offices?

        LIBRARIAN: (gets out the official wording and reads it, word for word).

      3. DaniCalifornia*

        Yes, a lot of our clients are are in for a shock and already griping about the changes for personal property/sales tax and standard deductions. Plenty of upper upper middle class/wealthy people who have so much money and don’t know anything about how it works. They are more focused on getting “all of their money back” when we are constantly trying to educate people that maybe giving the government an interest free loan isn’t great to begin with!

    4. Chaordic One*

      I hope this doesn’t sound snotty. I don’t mean it to, but almost all of the US IRS employees are currently on furlough because of the government shutdown and dealing with more pressing problems than tax season down the road. I wouldn’t be surprised if the shutdown results in the April 15 deadline being moved back this year.

  21. Mouse Princess*

    I just got engaged! Yay! But I work in a “we’re all family” office…here are all the ways that my coworkers reacted:
    Male coworker asked if I was pregnant when I said I hoped to do the wedding this year.
    My boss looked at my ring and then informed me that he can evaluate the carats and value of all jewelry thanks to his training at an auction house.
    My coworker admonished me for saying I didn’t think I would do a registry or bridal shower.
    She also sent an email to me and her friend at a popular, expensive dress boutique after I politely declined her offer to put us in touch.
    My boss with boundary issues asked if she could host our engagement party (we are not close!)

    THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONGGGGG RIDE.

    2. irene adler*

      Wow! Almost worth ending the engagement.
      Don’t though.
      Just try to minimize the info the “family” gets.

    3. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Wow. I’d try to divorce this “family”. Best of luck enduring this, and congrats on the engagement! Hope you have the wedding you want and enjoy!

      And doing the wedding “this year”…. that’s … not strange? That’s pretty normal.

      1. Roja*

        Right?? Especially since it’s January. I could maybe understand the thought (but not saying it out loud) if it were, like, December 15th or something. But “before the end of the year,” well, it’s only January 4th!

        1. Mouse Princess*

          Seriously!

          Oy you guys are making me feel so much better. I was starting to think maybe I’m just sensitive.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      First off CONGRATS! Second…wow!

      Might be best to start this engagement off with the less details about your wedding to your “work family” the better.

        2. DaniCalifornia*

          That’s a great reply! I told people “Oh my mom is handling that.” Which was true. She pretty much planned my wedding and it was great!

          1. Mouse Princess*

            Yes!!! I realized quickly that people try to give their input even if you say you are *not* doing something, so I’m just going to deflect, deflect, deflect!

    5. Teapot Painter*

      I just got engaged too!! Congratulations!! That’s so exciting!!

      My office did NOT do any of that stuff, thankfully!! I got lots of joyful congratulations and a couple of hugs from other female coworkers! I wish you luck navigating your office, it sounds like a nightmare!

      1. Mouse Princess*

        Yay! Congratulations and thank you for reminding me that *this is not normalll* so I can motivate to move on in the future.

      2. Ama*

        My office was pretty good, too, although I also got engaged right at the beginning of my boss’s two week vacation and then we had to get the ring resized so word got around the office very slowly.

        However, because my fiancee and I have been dating for 9 years and living togther for 5 I definitely have had some interesting texts from family and friends who are clearly trying to figure out if the reason we’re getting married now is because I’m pregnant (I’m not).

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I have some friends who got married last year after living together for at least 15 years. Everyone was wondering the same! But it turns out that one person was being teasingly picky about a specific kind of proposal, and finally got it.

    6. Sara without an H*

      Congratulations! And try to limit the amount of information you give your co-workers.

      Have you and your fiance discussed the possibility of eloping?

      1. Mouse Princess*

        We did but in the end we decided we wanted our closest friends and relatives present. Though I wouldn’t mind telling my coworkers we eloped just to throw them off the scent!

        1. Sled dog mama*

          I’d totally tell coworkers you eloped and be sure to take some staged photos of just you and your witnesses to show coworkers (bonus points if your “witnesses” are random people off the street)

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Try this “we’re restricting the wedding to family ” …because this group sounds like they’ll expect invitations.

    7. LimeRoos*

      Congrats!!! I’m going to plug OffBeat Bride (link in username) as a fantastic resource for wedding related drama. They have scripts for dealing with pushy relatives that would totally translate well to pushy coworkers. And a lot of awesome advice, ideas, real weddings and what not too.

      1. Mouse Princess*

        Thank you! I am a wedding newbie so anything that is AAM-like but bridal themed seems great.

    8. Roses Angel*

      I also didnt want to do a registry or shower. So I signed up for a honeyfund so my family can help me pay for a renovation. And my fiance and I dont get 100 things that we will never use.

      1. Mouse Princess*

        Great idea! We don’t have the space for new things and are happy with our old toaster and hand-me-down plates. Will look into honeyfund. Thanks!

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        This is kind of what we did. I often read a lot of criticism about asking for money instead of gifts but one of the things we told people was that a gift card to one of two specific places would be more useful than actual gifts. At the time we were living in a tiny student apartment and had plans to buy a house sometime in the year or so after we got married, and we had to transport everything from the wedding venue cross-country on the train. It worked out fine, because people who wanted to get us a gift had something to buy, they were easy to move, and we got appliances when we finally bought the house.

  22. TJ*

    I’m quitting my first job today and I’m scared.

    Part of the reason I’m scared is that I don’t have another job lined up yet. Another part is the reason I’m quitting: it’s a long story, but the short version is that I did exactly what you’re not supposed to do and became close friends with my manager. Then he changed his mind (partly fueled by some mental health issues), and ended our friendship. And then started being super hostile to me at work and then magically started finding problems with my work after nearly four years of excellent performance reviews.

    This all ended with him deciding to demote me yesterday. I should mention that along the way I did everything I could to fix whatever problems he mentioned, but it was hard because he kept a) contradicting himself, and b) saying things had happened differently than they did (I don’t want to call it gaslighting, but it was along those lines).

    It’s gotten to the point where both I and the two people who I was managing up until yesterday are all afraid to talk to him about anything because we don’t know if he’ll attack us for it or make a big deal out of nothing or decide we’re bad at our jobs because of a single minor incident. They’ve seen what’s happened to me and how much of what he’s doing doesn’t line up with reality and afraid it’ll happen to them. Now that they know he’ll be their direct manager, they’re strongly thinking about leaving (at least one is already job-hunting).

    Big Boss still likes me, and he’s said he’ll give me a good reference and that he understands why I don’t trust my manager to give me one. But what happens when prospective employers ask why I’m not listing my direct manager as a reference? What if quitting without another job lined up makes it impossible for me to get another one? I feel like it’s much harder to explain the demotion, which I’d have to put on my resume as a change in title, so quitting seems like a better move. But still. I’m worried.

    1. Catleesi*

      That sounds like a really difficult situation. Good luck and I hope you find something new soon! I have very often not used a direct manager as a reference – and never been questioned about it, and I’ve worked in a few different fields. I’m not sure if it’s common in yours to do it but I would not expect to get many questions about it.

      1. Ama*

        I have two direct managers I can’t use because they were fired for cause and one I don’t use because she never understood what I actually did. For those jobs I use coworkers who were slightly senior to me (and honestly some of them understood my work better anyway). I have never once been asked why I don’t use my direct manager for those jobs.

    2. SansaStark*

      Agree with Catleesi – I don’t think you’ll get any questions about why you’re not using your direct supervisor. If you do, you could just say something about having worked with him more closely on XX project or something or that he is more familiar with your work that aligns more closely with the new job’s responsibilities or something kinda vague. Good luck!

    3. Auburn*

      Where I live the fact that you resigning due to refusing a demotion means you might qualify for unemployment too so may be worth checking!

      Leaving sounds like the right thing to do. The job market is good right now. While it’s ideal to have a job lined up before you quit it’s not always easy to job search while working. If it’s an option financially, getting out of a toxic situation will make it easier to focus on the search without all the background noise. Using grandboss for a reference is fine. Just say “Grand boss had the best perspectve to evaluate my work”. In general, answer questions directly but don’t overexplain or offer up info that isn’t actually requested. That’s where I’ve seen people get off track in interviews. They anticipate questions that aren’t even being asked and in their nervousness start offering up all sorts of stuff that we don’t even need to or want to know about their last jobs. Have nice short positive answers ready about why you left. Be honest and forthright but don’t overexplain. Short and sweet. Congrats on leaving a shitty situation!

    4. Dinosaur Cake*

      Honestly, you may also want to talk to an employment lawyer and exploring whether you have any options, including re: constructive dismissal. The answer might be “no”, but many employment lawyers will do free consultations and take this kind of work on contingency if they do think that there’s something they can assist with.

    5. Episkey*

      I agree, if you get asked, just say, “Oh, I worked with Big Boss more closely on the majority of my projects, so he/she can more clearly speak to my work.”

    6. AliceW*

      I’ve quit a professional job before without another one lined up. Had no problem getting another one. Since the job market is pretty good right now and many companies have the budget to hire in the beginning of the new year, you should hopefully be able to find something fairly quickly (unless you work in an industry with very few opportunities). I have also used other managers, not my direct manger as a reference. The question never came up as to why. As long as you can afford to, don’t ever work for someone who makes your life miserable. It’s a new year. Don’t be scared, be positive!

      1. De-Archivist*

        I’ve actually done it twice, both times from high-stress jobs where I had saved enough money to be unemployed for a short time. The last time, I ended up switching careers. It worked out both times. I also have a short gap in my resume where a job I got needed to push my start date back due to some unforeseen staffing issues that had nothing to do with me.

        I’ve only been asked a couple of times about the gaps, but I’ve just been honest. “While I enjoyed several aspects of my previous job, it was pretty high stress and I was starting to feel some creeping burnout. I hadn’t taken any vacation time in several years, so I took some time off to job search and visit family.” The trick is that you’re not apologizing for taking some time off or explaining away a horrible secret, so you can’t act like it’s some big, dramatic thing. Don’t feel like people think you’re a slacker if you’re not employed ever week from ages 18 to 67.

        I doubt anyone notices that you haven’t put your immediate supervisor down, and it might actually work to your advantage to have a reference from an upper manager in that you look more competent to get on that radar, not less. Just make sure that you are actively job searching, putting in resumes, and following Alison’s advice about cover letters.

    7. Alice*

      What an awful situation. If Big Boss understands why you don’t trust your manager to give the same kind of reference that Big Boss is going to give, why isn’t Big Boss managing out your boss?
      It is scary to quit, but it sounds like it’s the right decision for you.
      I don’t think anyone will object to having Big Boss as a reference instead of your direct supervisor.
      Good luck.

    8. TJ*

      Thanks for all the replies everyone. It went OK … Big Boss was very understanding, and at least it’s over. It’s good to know that people don’t always ask why you’re not listing your direct manager as a reference, so I appreciate that. Big Boss is kind of a household name, too, which should help a lot.

    9. TechWorker*

      I wouldn’t worry about where the reference comes from – I would have something ready to explain it if asked but otherwise can you not just put the persons title rather than their relationship to you?

      Also if a manager becomes close friends with a report that’s mostly on the manager, not the report.

  23. Overeducated*

    I received David Graeber’s book “Bullshit Jobs” for Christmas so I’m reading it while not working. I gotta say…parts ring true, but I’m skeptical that his explanation of why is a bit too “truthy.” I’m only at the beginning though, maybe he’ll convince me!

    Since this is anonymous, would anyone here actually admit to having a bullshit job? Or do you object to the idea? Will post a link to the article it’s an expansion of in the comments.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      I once worked in a government job creating reports, and I suspected that many of these reports were very rarely read or used for any practical purpose. As a teenager I worked as an outbound telemarketer, a job I ultimately quit because I felt like an asshole for convincing people to buy overpriced, low-quality crap. Both of these would probably fall into Graeber’s definition of a “bullshit job.”

      Over the years I’ve also seen several positions eliminated or gone unfilled with zero noticeable effect. I think those probably qualify as bullshit jobs.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I’ve formerly served as an assistant to someone who didn’t really require an assistant for the tasks they were doing day to day, but just felt like their rank/prestige/ego required that they have an assistant. I believe that is one of his definitions of a Bullshit Job. I kept busy and still learned a lot, and it was the very start of my career so I wasn’t too resentful, but I believe you can do this for your whole career if you choose.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          I had one of those! I worked for a tiny, dying marketing firm and the CEO laid off 75% of the staff since he lost his main client, which was also about 80% of his business. I was also 1099 employee even though I wasn’t actually one. He needed an assistant like he needed a hole in the head. I basically sat there for 5 months (including the month of July when it was just me in the office).

    3. Weegie*

      I *definitely* had a BS job for 5+ years.

      I fell down a career rabbit hole when, during a temporary contract, I acquired a lot of Useless Knowledge that suddenly became very attractive to employers in my field. It sort of involved compliance, except . . . well, the only way to explain it is that the government devised a set of fiendishly complicated rules, and I had to advise people about these rules, and how to apply them to their work, and what processes and activities they needed to follow in order to comply with the rules. But as a mere adviser I had no power to follow up with them, or make sure they did it, or did it properly, or indeed at all, or to impose consequences for non-compliance. And then I had to sort out the mess when everything fell apart and Compliance Reporting time rolled around. When people used to ask me what I did for a living I described it as ‘a non-job that is pointless and useless and worthless’, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.

      Thankfully a new employer rescued me last year and I was able to return to my pre-BS job career (yay!). But to this day I still have horror flashbacks to those wasted years, and I wonder why/how it was that I rose so quickly up the career ladder, and got paid oodles of money, doing something that really was pointless and that I despised beyond all measure.

    4. Systems Engineer*

      I’m reading documents to create other documents and I just …. feel so useless, coming from operations. The most bs are the reports about adhering to schedule. Rules about how to follow other rules.

      1. Sharon*

        I’m a business analyst and sometimes I think that my job is BS. It *is* valuable to dig out requirements, especially if the client doesn’t fully know what they need the software to do. But a lot of the time what I do is rewrite one document into the format of another document without really adding any new information.

    5. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I LOVE David Graeber, and I thought “Bullshit Jobs” was excellent. (as is his other work, especially “Debt”). I found myself wondering what Alison would think of his work while reading BS Jobs.

      My job is mostly bullshit–maybe 80%. It doesn’t have to be, but because of the way my company is run and their priorities, it’s pretty much turned into box checking rather than anything meaningful or making an impact. It’s also pleasant–I work mostly from home, I am well paid–it’s definitely not torture, though I do feel a bit guilty sometimes for drawing a decent paycheck for doing mostly bullshit. I definitely would like to move into a less bullshit position, but I’m currently the only breadwinner for my family and we’re planning a cross-country move, so it will have to wait for the move.

      1. Overeducated*

        I like your percentage rather than yes/no way of looking at it. I also feel like the core of my job is not bullshit, it is meaningful and I believe it does concrete good, but it feels like I spend a minority of my time actually doing it and a majority of the time documenting that I did it in compliance with all applicable laws, regulations, and policies. And then filing all the documents. And that is why they call it bureaucracy, I guess.

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Yep. My position is similar. It is required by state law (I’m in the private sector but a highly regulated field). and if I did my job to the spirit of the law it would absolutely not be bullshit. But unfortunately, my company gives me only the resources to do the very bare minimum of what is required by law (check the box), and fills my time with other tasks that are largely bullshit, in addition to the bureaucratic necessities of the non-bullshit part.

          1. Overeducated*

            I read the chapter on types yesterday…box ticker definitely sounds right for that large percentage of my time. Sigh…

    6. Lilysparrow*

      It’s a good read and has merit. But I can’t help thinking of the Golgafrinchans in “Hitchhiker’s Guide”.

      They actually got rid of their useless industries (and workers). Many of the same categories he mentions, including PR professionals, marketing consultants, and pointless busywork like sanitizing public telephones.

      Does Graeber mention (or credit) Douglas Adams in the book?

      (Though in Adams’ version, the entire planet was eventually wiped out by a virulent disease passed from an unsanitized telephone.)

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Yep. He definitely talks about Adams and what he did and did not get right about bullshit jobs.

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          And to be clear, Graeber explains why telephone sanitizer is not a bullshit job, if I remember correctly.

    7. Different handle*

      My company consults to find the right and supports different intranet solutions for other companies and IMO nothing would be lost if we fell off the face of the earth.

    8. Anna*

      My job is such bs that it is all I can do to keep from screaming that fact at the top of my lungs in the middle of our even more bs meetings.

      I am on the waiting list for that book from the library. I am looking to forward to it and I expect to relate heavily to it.

    9. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m not sure if my current job qualifies. On the one hand I am doing something concrete and physical, with a benefit to society as a whole: excavating stuff that would otherwise be destroyed, and recording what was there for analysis and a report in the near future. But the people building the things that would be doing the destroying don’t want us to do it, and the people who will be buying space in those buildings might vaguely think what we’re doing is nice but if they thought it would make their space cost less they wouldn’t want us to do it. Many people think it’s boring or stupid, or think that because we are not on TV doing it we must not be actual professionals (cf. the guy who saw us working and called the police because he thought we doing something illegal because we don’t work for a university).

      On the other hand I get paid diddly-squat so I suppose it falls into the same category as other people who do something useful and are therefore financially squeezed.

  24. I work on a Hellmouth*

    Welcome to the Hellmouth update! In a shocking twist this week, there were NO squirrel or stinging insect shenanigans! Huzzah! Although Temp Worker Porn Guy did report seeing rats by the Fortress of Garbage that has been stacked up AROUND the dumpster and being very frightened of them. My manager explained to him that he still needed to pick up in the areas where he saw the rats and that rats never attack or bite people. She very firmly told him that he should ignore them and get to dismantling the Fortress of Garbage. Temp Worker Porn Guy remained terrified so she finally instructed Pest Control Dude to put out 3-4 traps in amongst the garbage playground of rat delights and told Temp Worker Porn Guy to hop to it.

    It has not all been fun and rats. We had more worrying rising water levels in the ponds, a worrying emptying of the pool (another randomly broken pipe, yay), and the discovery that the roofs of at least two buildings are completely deteriorated and in a state that the roofer referred to as “inexplicable”. We also had a lot of screaming residents and an online review wherein my manager was listed by name and called a sociopath. I don’t know if she’s a sociopath, but something is definitely very wrong there.

    I think I’ve mentioned that I’ve worked for this boss previously. While she was a little bit difficult to work for, she had always appeared to be a good boss (which was one of the reasons why I took this job). Things are kind of spiraling with her now, though. Guys. I don’t know what to do any more. It seems like she always has to have someone that she is unhappy with/torturing. Now that her least favorite leasing consultant has quit, it looks like it is my turn in the barrel. She is clearly very unhappy with me this week, but generally for pretty unreasonable things. For example, she will ask me to do a very complicated task hour long task, but then leave me by myself in the office for over an hour. I will be overwhelmed with phone calls and multiple people walking in for tours, and will be unable to complete the task. I will explain how out of 75 minutes I was talking to or touring people for 65 minutes. She will tell me that is unacceptable.

    Three separate times this week she has asked me if I have done something that “we talked about the night before” or that she “gave instructions on in a previous team meeting.” In all three cases, the conversation or meeting that she referred to NEVER HAPPENED. Like, nothing even close to it happened. And in one instance, she actually asked me if I had done a thing that she specifically TOLD ME NOT TO DO the previous day (repeatedly, because I kept asking her to be sure that was what she wanted), saying that she specifically told me TO do it.

    I really don’t know what to think. Is she gaslighting me? Is she crazy? Is she trying to set me up? I’m constantly upset and worn pretty thin at this point. She spent 2.5 hours interviewing this woman who lives at the property she was at before this one, and there were a lot of giggles and pointed whispers. Maybe she’s hoping I will quit so she can replace me with her.

    Also, rent is due this week, so there have been many screaming residents. So many screaming residents. Mostly, they scream at me. Upon being told over the phone that I couldn’t help him until he stopped screaming, one guy immediately ran to the office to try and corner me for more screaming, All of the fun! Fortunately, I took today off and have a fun, out of town nerdcation with the boyfriend planned. I’m going to try really hard not to think about work or the mean notes and rearranged desk I am going to come back to.

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        I have some that my mom gave me, but prefer not to carry it–it’s just way too easy to accidentally spray yourself. However, I DO train at a Krav Maga/self defense gym regularly.

    2. revueller*

      Oh God, thank you for the update, but oh no.

      I’m especially sorry about your boss clearly deteriorating like that. And your residents. Glad you got to take a day off, and I hope you enjoy it.

      2. Kat in VA*

        I’m in the same boat – I look forward to these updates because they’re incredibly entertaining but I also feel awful because they’re…incredibly entertaining.

        I’m sorry this job is so awful, Hellmouth. If nothing else, you have a large cadre of folks who are reading about your (mis)adventures in shock and horror.

    3. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      Domesticated rats are very gentle, intelligent creatures that do not typically bite people unless they are being hurt or threatened. Wild rats though…they definitely bite. And they will definitely attack people. Your boss is off the chain.

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, I was listening to her tell the dude that the rats were timid and afraid of him, and he should just carry a water bottle to squirt them with, and to go and jump into the trash piles, and all I could think was “Nooooooooooooooooooooo.”

        1. MsM*

          Sorry if this has been addressed (I’m new to the saga), but has anyone considered filing an OSHA complaint?

          1. I work on a Hellmouth*

            My boss has revealed herself to be very burn-down-your-house-and-salt-the-earth vengeful, so filing anything at all ever seems like a bad move, to be honest. Not to be all overly dramatic bad action movie, but escape is the only option.

            1. Blarg*

              Anonymous calls to your municipality’s code enforcement? Even just them showing up might be entertaining. But either way, start making a list of agencies to contact on your way out. OSHA. Your housing authority. Whatever agency handles discrimination against tenants. Keep track of wage violations. Etc. Set it up so you go out in a subtle, ongoing blaze of untraceable glory. Complain on behalf of wronged tenants. Wronged employees. Contractors. Neighbors. Squirrels. Etc.

              1. I work on a Hellmouth*

                The problem is that it’s currently an office of three including my very paranoid boss, and I’ve now seen her go after coworkers and employees from her previous jobs that she SUSPECTS of doing her wrong in a number of ways, including but not limited to: lawsuits, anonymous complaints about them to their corporate offices, attempted setups, fake bad reviews naming them specifically online, homemade glitterbombs mailed to them from other states, at least one instance of having someone’s power cut off, etc. I also just this past week heard one rumor about something she attempted to do to someone while at her last job that is too wild to list when I can’t verify it as fact, but on the off chance that it is true 100% seals the “rock no boats” deal for me on leaving. She’s. Terrifying.

                1. Blarg*

                  It would be a fascinating character study if it weren’t your real life. You sound exhausted, more so than in past weeks. Fingers and toes crossed about your interview or any others. And more encouragement to start a pay-wall blog or similar. You’ve got the writing skills and the fan base!

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I just read back through some of your updates in previous threads and you ABSOLUTELY HAVE A BAD BOSS! She sounds insane and is now gaslighting you. I really hope you are able to find a new job yesterday! I remember your initial letter and update and can’t imagine this is good for your health.

      3. Ama*

        It sounds to me like boss is also overwhelmed by the stress (when I get stressed out I often will just flat out forget what I told someone even hours before) but instead of just admitting this job is on a hellmouth she’s trying to blame the OP and her coworkers. This does not excuse anything she’s doing, I just get a sense that she’s also overwhelmed by the job and grasping at straws that somehow someone else is to blame for how bad things are.

        I have had a boss somewhat like this — she was openly paranoid and lied about *everything* (including contracting out work on unapproved contracts and then claiming she’d done it herself) and finally flamed out by faking being hospitalized in a car accident then quitting in a righteous huff because we “violated her privacy” by asking what hospital she was in so we could send flowers. Of course this was conveniently before an audit that was about to uncover all those unapproved contracts. She probably did have some issues she needed to address with a therapist, but I think she was mostly just overwhelmed by the stress of the job (the big bosses had a completely unrealistic concept of what a normal workload should be, what things cost, how long various processes took, etc. — I stayed three years after she left and almost developed an ulcer.)

        1. I work on a Hellmouth*

          See, I try to frame it this way just so I can be compassionate/not lose my mind… but she’s not really overwhelmed all that often. She mostly messes around and has everyone else do the work while she schemes ways to harass kids or get rid of her least favorite residents or plans and decorates for resident events. She comes in 20-30 minutes late every day, and it isn’t unheard of for her to take multiple 4-6 hour trips “shopping for the property” or for sudden resident events within the same week. Homeslice is pretty breezy and blasé.

            1. I work on a Hellmouth*

              I’m probably about two weeks away from breaking out “Homey don’t play that.”

        2. I work on a Hellmouth*

          Commenting separately because this deserves its own space: Wait, she FAKED being hospitalized?!?

      4. Twenty Points for the Copier*

        Agree. She seems completely unable to take responsibility for the parts of this mess that are her fault.

      5. Not So NewReader*

        It doesn’t matter which of the three she is doing, the net result is the same. Get out.

        Looking at it from another angle, if she is gaslighting or setting you up this is not normal behavior. I don’t want to say crazy but it’s not normal. Something is bending her thoughts so that she now thinks this is normal. It could be environmental such as people or activities around her are causing her to not think logically anymore.

        Back to “it doesn’t matter”.

        I love what my wise friend used to say. People do what they see around them. If you hang out with a bunch of turkeys, it’s hard to soar like an eagle. OP, here’s the scary part, the longer you stay here the more and more warped your own sense of normal will become. In other words, you could find out how she got to where she is at now, through your own experiences. Her worldview is torqued out and she is trying to distort your worldview. That is everything you need to know right there.

        1. I work on a Hellmouth*

          We are 100% in agreement. It’s been a relatively short amount of time and I’m already fighting off bad side effects. I’m on a tireless quest to find a new gig, I promise.

    6. Bee's Knees*

      Wow. Really. Wow. I’m picturing the skies overhead as constantly cloudy and slightly green. And I maybe don’t need to read this at work, because my “Girl NO” just about came out of my mouth where other people could hear.

      Also, are we placing bets on what happens when TWPG steps on one of the rat traps? With or without a rat attached? Rabies shots, anyone?

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh man, it’s either been overcast or absolutely pouring there for the last two weeks. I took the day off to go to a fun convention and it is all sunshine and beautiful weather! I think the universe is throwing me a bone.

        I’m actually worried about TWPG falling prey to a rat attack. I don’t think his water bottle will help.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          It will if he has really good aim and throws it and hits the rat, but that really only works the once. And then they go all Secret of Nimh on him or something. If he goes missing, we know what really happened.

          I’m glad the weather is nice for your day off!

    7. Snork Maiden*

      “all fun and rats” is my new favorite phrase.

      Rats aside, the answer to your questions “Is she gaslighting me? Is she crazy? Is she trying to set me up?” is “Yes.” You cannot win this game. Try to preserve what sanity you can. The upside is, this type of boss will almost never fire you, because then they have to do more work/find someone to put up with their bullshit.

    8. AnonAcademic*

      I experienced the same behavior from a boss – him totally misremembering conversations in ways that were not in my favor. I started recapping all quasi-important things in either meeting notes or email. I also realized that this behavior spiked when he was sleep deprived and frustrated about other things; it’s more an emotional reaction to sometimes having *no* memory, so inventing whichever version “felt right” to him. I learned to not engage in conversations about who was right, but instead ask “what do you want me to do going forward?” None of this prevented the behavior but it at least redirected it, and forwarding him emails that prove he originally said do X when he was insisting he said Y was at least mildly satisfying.

    9. Alice Ulf*

      I think “it can’t all be fun and rats” will be my go-to phrase at work from now on. Our maintenance supervisor will appreciate it as much as I do.

      I am also in property management, so… *fist-bump of solidarity*
      Me to a current resident: Sir. Please stop unwrapping the sofa. It’s wrapped in plastic because it’s full of bedbugs.
      Him: Aw, that’s okay! *continues*
      Me: ….No. No it’s not and you CANNOT take it to your apartment.

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        Hey fellow property management employee! *fist bump*
        Oh MAN do I feel you on that one! Eeeeeeeeew. That’s probably the grossest version of no-resident-don’t-do-that-OKAY-I’M-GOING-TO-DO-IT-no-you-can’t-do-that-OKAY-I’M-DOING-IT! in awhile. Bedbugs are the WORST.

    10. Karen from Finance*

      Yay, Hellmouth update! But also, oh no, Hellmouth update….

      How I wish you could just quit without another job lined up, and it really really sucks you can’t. This whole situation just sounds terrible.

      Thought: if your boss is just trying to be terrible to make you quit, can you be terrible back and get her to fire you? Would that enable you to get severance pay?

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, I financially can not quit, but it’s getting very difficult to stay. I mean, it’s been difficult—it’s kind of alarming how much MORE difficult it gets on a weekly basis.

        Sadly, if I get fired there will be no severance and if it is for cause I can’t collect unemployment, and I would lose my healthcare. Also, I’d be worried about fallout/it affecting my employability in the future. BUT! The interesting job opening that I had the great phone interview for will allegedly be contacting the folks moving on to the next round to set up in person interviews either next week or the week after. So I’m hoping I hear back.

        1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          May you get the job so you can flee! Hopefully before anyone gets eaten by rats.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              The heck with Earthly pests… At this point I’m starting to worry about Cthulhu.

  25. Anon Anon*

    I am trying to transition from the nonprofit sector to philanthropy. Who should I use as references?

    Here are my options:

    1) Current manager. I’ve been at my current organization for four years, in my current role for two years. She has been my manager for a few months; she was previously a colleague, and was recently promoted. We have a great relationship and she will give a glowing reference.

    2) Most recent former manager. During a recent reorganization, I was moved to my current manager and my former managed became a colleague. He still directs my work on the program he manages. I reported to him for three and a half years. We have a great relationship and he will give a glowing reference.

    3) Current grandboss, who is also a former direct manager (at a different organization, more than a decade ago). He is the executive sponsor of the program I manage, so I work closely with him. I worked for him at another organization for four years, a decade ago. He has been my grandboss for a year now. We have a great relationship and he will give a glowing reference.

    So this is all good, but it is weird that they are all from the same job (+ the grandboss who can also speak to my work at another role a decade ago)?

    Also, while I haven’t worked in philanthropy I’ve done a lot of work with foundations, serving on advisory boards/etc. So should I include a reference that I’ve worked with at a foundation?

    Other options:

    Foundation contact: She manages two community grantmaking boards that I sit on at a local foundation. We have a great relationship and she would say great things, but we haven’t actually worked together. (I recently applied for a foundation role and when I told her I hadn’t gotten it, she said “There is literally nobody I know who would be better for that role.”)

    Managers from my last organization: My last employer was a startup, and in my 2.5 years there I had two roles and three managers. I had a great relationship with one, a totally good relationship with another but she’s not my champion in the same way the others I’ve already listed are, and one who was disappointed in my work (and was the cause of my eventual departure).

    Thoughts?

    1. References*

      How many references are they asking for? I generally put down 3. In your case, I would put down person #2, person #3 and the foundation contact.

    2. Bluebell*

      I agree that you should include the Foundation contact. Sounds like she’s familiar with the philanthropic community and that will benefit you. Good luck!

    3. JR*

      If you have had meaningful professional experience with the foundation contact, I’d definitely use her as a second or third reference. As a hiring manager, I’d most want to know about your core skills and attitudes as expressed in your day to day job. That said, the foundation manager could speak to some important skills for the job you’re looking for – for instance, a lot of people who are new to philanthropy have a hard time selecting grantees because they all seem great. Can you ask probing questions and weigh tough trade offs? Are you diplomatic? Can you manage relationships? How’s your industry-specific content knowledge? If you have worked with the foundation contact enough that she could speak to those kinds of questions, I think she’d be a great reference (but not at the expense if someone who has managed you directly).

  26. Anonymous For this*

    Hey collective, Ive a problem I can’t seem to get past.
    I work in a small law office, four legal assistants, an office manager and myself plus the lawyers.
    The lawyers are all lovely and we get along well. The assistants have been more difficult to bond with.
    One in particular just seems to hate me. She refuses to talk to me unless she absolutely has to, it’s juvenile and irritating.
    I know she’s upset I don’t really drink, but that’s all she’s really said. I’m just not a big drinker.
    But, I’m sure there’s more to this than that.
    I know I can’t fix it, but I’m torn as to my reaction.
    Is this as ridiculous as it seems to me? Or is this just how it goes?
    For the record, yes, people have noticed and one lawyer asked me how my “wicked step sisters” are treating me, in reference to her and her cubby mate. Cubby mate is snide, but she’s willing to talk to me and work together as needed so I can handle her.

    1. Rey*

      Yes, this is ridiculous, and it may just be how it goes. And as the lawyer pointed out, it reflects badly on the assistants, not you. As long as she isn’t preventing you from doing your work, I would let it all go and keep taking the high road (you can still complain about it to your chosen confidant, just not at work).

    2. LKW*

      This is sometimes how it goes. If you feel you can’t get your work done because of their behavior, call it out. Put it in an email – I can’t get this done until I get this information from you or you tell me where I can find this. We will not meet timeline unless this other thing is complete.

      But if she doesn’t want to be social, don’t let it get you down. But also don’t treat her with kid gloves. Power move – just say Hi to her and then ask her how her weekend was and then talk to her as if you don’t give a crap that she’s not talking. She may walk away, but if you can get her to do that in front of the lawyers, when you’re doing a 15 second greeting – it will make her look bad. Clearly the lawyers know about it but they don’t care to get involved. Still, can’t hurt to expose it a bit.

    3. Em*

      Can you take her aside and ask “Did I do something to offend you?” You can explain that you don’t want to be close but you would like to know if there’s a reason you’re being avoided.

      If she’s giving you everything you need to work, let it go. If there’s work things falling through the cracks, rope in her manager. I’d be tempted to put all work requests in email and CC her boss, but that’s me.

    4. Kat in VA*

      My company has a very, hmmm, alcohol-centered culture and it’s fascinating to me how annoyed people become when they discover you don’t drink (or drink [b]very[/b] rarely, as is my case). I should note I’m in our Sales division, which apocrypha points to a larger-than-usual portion of the population engages in drinking, sometimes to excess, on the regular.

      I’m not a jerk about it, I just say, “Ah, I don’t drink really, maybe 2 or 3 times a year.” BOOM, here we go! I get asked if I’m an alcoholic, am I on medication, am I pregnant, do I have a religious belief against, do I have a MORAL belief against, and the questions get more personal and invasive the more I say, “Nope, just don’t really like to drink!”

      I got three bottles of wine and two bottles of champagne for holiday presents (among other things), to give you an idea. I do know that a bottle of wine or whatever is an easy gift for Christmas – it’s one-size-fits-all, isn’t terribly expensive, and can be re-gifted if, say, you’re not into Chardonnay or whatever. But FIVE.BOTTLES.OF.BOOZE. I mean…DAMN, SON.

      I don’t drink for the incredibly boring reason that I just can’t handle my alcohol. I can be the life of the party or a jerk when I drink and the line between “whee I’ve got a great buzz on” to “grrr I’m tired and cranky and just DONE” is as little as one sip. So it’s easier for me to just not partake and try to carefully gauge that fine line, which I do as a personal choice – not as some kind of stinging commentary on the louche behavior of others!

      But some folks seem to think that I’m not drinking AT them somehow and get upset…

      1. Kat in VA*

        I realized in that monster reply that I didn’t offer any advice.

        Assistants can be a difficult problem to handle because a lot of what you do can depend on whether or not you’re on the outs with them. (For the record, I am not one of those EAs – I will AT A BARE MINIMUM – provide professional, courteous, prompt assistance to everyone even if they’re a total jackwagon).

        All I can suggest is professional and courteous, and don’t extend yourself anything beyond that. If she’s determined To Not Be Friends with you simply because you don’t like to drink, that’s on her and it’s not on you to somehow win her to your side or explain yourself or justify your reasoning.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      My thoughts here are tempered by growing up in a family shaped by alcoholics and the unrecovered adult children of alcoholics.

      Anyone who actively dislikes you because you drink less than they do, has a Very Serious Problem in their relationship with booze.

      People who have Very Serious Problems with alcohol don’t drink just because they enjoy it. They drink because it’s better than feeling or confronting their underlying issues directly. The very idea of not drinking – even other people not drinking – is incredibly distressing, because it is their only line of defense against whatever those issues are.

      You didn’t cause those problems, you can’t fix them, and it isn’t actually about you.

      You are just a bystander in her proxy war against her demons. Don’t take it personally, and don’t waste your energy trying to change her attitude. Just wish her well, work around her, and let her go her way.

    6. A Paralegal*

      What you describe is really common in law offices. By some luck I’ve only encountered it once. She may say it’s because you don’t drink but there is likely more there and you’ll never figure out why. And even if you did, there a good chance its something you can’t do anything about (like being called in to work on a project that she wanted or using the copy machine when she wants to use it even though you are on a deadline). So you need to let it go and do your own thing. If she won’t talk to you, correspond by email. If she hampers your work, go to your attorney, or the office manager, whichever you have the better relationship with, and find out what that person suggests you do. When I was in that position, my office manager intervened and obtained the information I needed understanding that I would never get it. It’s tough and its stupid because you think you left all this crap behind in highschool. But there’s nothing to be gained because she doesn’t want to fix it, is egged on by her cubby mate, and you’ll make yourself miserable if you get sucked into their game.

      I feel for you, I really do.

    7. Anon attorney*

      A lot of legal offices are dysfunctional. Attorneys as a rule/in my experience are not great managers and don’t deal with interpersonal stuff. If your billing is good nobody is going to call you on your behavior. If this individual is obstructing your work, document everything. If she’s just obnoxious on a personal level, I think you just have to let it wash over you and focus on the positive relationships you have with other coworkers. The fact that other people have noticed suggests that her behavior is making her look bad, not you. It’s unpleasant and I feel for you but it may not actually be personal – someone who is prepared to be openly rude in this manner probably has issues that have nothing really to do with who you really are and everything to do with their own dysfunction.

    8. loslothluin*

      I had a coworker that didn’t like me from the get go. I just ignored her, and she ignored me. It was a breath of fresh air when she quit, and they hired a normal person.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I wasn’t in a law office. But I worked with a woman who refused to speak to me. The situation was so bad I assumed if the place caught fire and I tried to tell her she would allow herself to die rather than hear a single word I said.
      Interestingly, she was a big drinker and I am pretty much a teetotaler, like you are saying here.

      It’s an odd thing but with every day she did not speak to me she reaffirmed my initial thought that I really did not need her to speak to me. As the days roll by you will see this yourself. You are doing a fine job and her silence is irrelevant.

      When anyone asks about how things are going be sure to say something. “No change from the last time you asked’, might be a good response. Or simply, “No change.” My point here is don’t let that question go by you without answering the question.

      Go about your work day. In the course of doing your job you will create activities/work that need further attention. She will have to pay attention to you and talk to you at some point. Remember she is painting herself into a corner, she can’t talk to you but she needs to talk to you for the sake of her work. Let her feel the conflict that she made for herself, and you, OTH, go on having a good day.

      With my person I think it was jealousy. She said she was envious of x and y I had. I think she started out uncomfortable and just found more reasons to be uncomfortable. She would say things like I did not help her. She never asked me to help her. I make it a point to help anyone who asks, so I would have notice if she asked even once.

      In the end, she was just plain odd and not very well liked.

      Make it a life habit to allow your “antagonists” to sharpen you. There’s at least one in most workplaces. Let them help you strengthen parts of yourself.

    10. Earthwalker*

      I have on occasion felt like my choice not to drink was perceived as being judgmental, that I was somehow scolding someone else who chose to drink. There’s nothing judgmental in “no thanks,” but it seems like just saying that sometimes hits a nerve.

  27. Mouse*

    At my company, you get 5 additional vacation days in your second year. I negotiated 4 extra days when I started because I was told extra salary wasn’t an option. I noticed today (my anniversary was a few weeks ago) that I had one day added, to bring me up to the “normal” base+5 amount. I read our handbook and it technically mentions the base+5 amount, not “an additional 5 days” or anything like that.

    Is this normal, or should I say something about it? I feel like I’m losing part of my compensation that I negotiated for, but it is still an increase from last year’s amount and I feel a little bit like I shouldn’t get greedy. To complicate things, I’m pushing for a promotion/raise within the next month or two, so even if this kind of thing isn’t normal and I should push back, I’m worried about spending capital on the wrong priority. Thoughts?

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      You absolutely should raise it. I’d cite the handbook and mention it in a tone like “someone made a mistake here and they’d want to correct it.” If they defend the one day increase, you have a good argument for explaining how a benefit is being taken away from you here.

      If that doesn’t work, would you accept a raise instead?

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      My husband went through something similar. It was an annual negotiation, which frustrated him, his boss, and HR. I don’t think they were trying to cheat him, but more like it was a non-standard arrangement that required review and bureaucratic process to manually fix. After a few years, he stopped fighting for it, partly because his salary and annual PTO allotment had risen to levels he was happier with. I hope you have an easier time getting what you negotiated than he did.

      And as a useful PSA – for anyone negotiating extra vacation time when accepting a new job, make sure to ask that extra amount be added on to your total every year. Hopefully they spell it out in writing.

    4. BlueWolf*

      All good points made. I would say it’s something you can bring up. All our HR stuff is in a software, so the vacation stuff is probably automated somehow and anything outside of the norm would require a manual adjustment (and I assume some sort of bureaucratic approvals process). Our benefits manual just specifies that you have X number of days when you start and then after 2 or 3 years (depending on exempt/non-exempt status) it changes to Y number of days (where Y = X + 5 days).

    5. Kat in VA*

      It’s essentially five days’ worth of pay they’re taking from you, or one week’s worth of pay where they pay you and you don’t have to work. Hell yes I would be upset about this!

      I agree with BlueWolf, though; it’s likely less “something shady” and more “automated process”. Even if it winds up being shady (at which point you get to get angry), I would approach it from the standpoint of, “Whoops, so I negotiated this extra time when I accepted the position and it looks like…” rather than HEY WHERE’S MY VACATION TIME HUH??

    6. Mouse*

      I talked to HR and it’s not a mistake, so now I guess I have to decide how much to push it. Thanks for all the advice!

      1. Jen*

        If it makes you feel better, that’s the way my company does it too. They give an extra week at 5 years and again at 10 years, but if you negotiated an extra week when you started, you wouldn’t get more vacation time until you reached 10 years.

        But I assume it would be like a raise, in that you could try to negotiate for extra vacation days if you don’t automatically get them.

    7. CM*

      This is tricky, because I think there’s a way of looking at it where you had base +4 days until now, and now you’ve got base +5, so all they did was increase your vacation time. They could argue that, when you negotiated the original contract for your salary and base+4 vacation days, you agreed that that was reasonable compensation, and now they’ve given you more than that.

      However, if you feel like your compensation package isn’t enough anymore, you could certainly roll asking for more vacation days into the discussion you want to have about a raise and promotion.

  28. Miss M*

    Hello, I wrote here a couple months ago about hating my job after 3 days because my team quickly showed themselves to be really mean and homophobic. Sad to report that I am still here, but, I have signed up for therapy and am putting my efforts into networking, so that is something. I have been in an anxious spiral and I’ve been too nervous to apply to many jobs, but I’m hoping with the help of my therapist and partner, I can do more of it.

    Weirdly, I’ve been waffling as to whether I should stay or go (which at day 3 would never been a question) but some family members have convinced me that gaining the experience for one year would be worth it. So part of me is trying to consider keeping my head down and coping in therapy and making it to a year.

    I don’t know if I can do that, but who knows how long it will take to find another job!

    However, recent events with my boss and team have changed their tune about me staying and now I’m sure I need to go.

    A week after I posted, my boss had me go to a big national conference with her in DC. I didn’t realize how well connected my boss was in this specific part of the field, she’s very outspoken so people recognize her well. At the conference, we went to dinner with my boss and her colleagues in my tri-state area. I said to her colleague “I’d like to hike two times per month.” Well. My boss misheard from across the table and thought I said “I’m leaving in two years.”

    You guys. She grabbed my hand and started CRYING. She said I couldn’t possibly leave that soon and she needed me, it was too stressful filling the position. When I and her colleague corrected her about the hike, her tears just…stopped. It was CRAZY. I was shocked. The colleague joked with me and said “Oh, that’s just Boss, she’s so passionate. She’s so glad you’re here.”

    I felt like I was going crazy. At the end of the conference, she told me she’s glad I’m not leaving after two years. And I could basically quote her because it’s stuck in my head, she said that if I did leave sooner than that, my reputation wouldn’t be good throughout our state and our neighboring state, because she is very well connected. And it’s true, there’s no one in this specific part of my field that doesn’t know her.

    Well, now I’m scared to leave. I can’t even imagine what to tell her if I find another job, nothing seems like an acceptable excuse and a big betrayal. What if this does ruin my reputation in the state I work/live in? Or somehow on the national level? I have been doing a good job in my role so far, because the work is actually interesting. But I don’t know if I can endure it for two years. It’s been almost two months.

    Anyways, I really appreciate the AAM community for the encouragement and advice. I just thought I’d update and say I appreciate the positive thoughts on my last post. Thanks again.

    1. LKW*

      Oy. Been in a similar situation. Look, you can leave whenever you need to leave. And you can use an excuse like, “It was an opportunity that I just couldn’t refuse.” Once you have the job, you’re good. You just have to be really cautious about being found out until you get the new job.

      And staying in a crappy job for a year for the experience is like saying “it’s good to be on fire for a year.” No.

    2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      Just because they know her doesn’t mean they respect her or that she’s capable of preventing you from working. They know her, they likely also know her dramatic shenanigans and will just think “There she goes again” if she tries to pull anything.

    3. AliceW*

      I’ve had a former boss threaten to blackball me when I gave notice. Nothing ever came of the threat. I’ve had a successful career in my field. And even if he had made good on his threat, I would have just moved into a different industry. Life is too short to hate going to work every day, never mind actually causing health issues, mental or otherwise. That’s why saving for a rainy day is very sage advice. Knowing you are able to afford to quit a hateful job makes working there in the meantime much more tolerable. I wouldn’t worry too much about your boss’s reaction if you quit. As long as you are professional and give sufficient notice, you should be fine. Good luck!

    4. ArtK*

      You aren’t responsible for your boss’ feelings. Don’t give her another thought. Leave when you need to leave, ignore her histrionics and move on. She needs to take care of herself.

      I doubt very, very much that leaving would do any damage to your reputation. People leave all the time. It’s likely that anyone who knows your boss knows how over-the-top she is and will discount any badmouthing. Just be professional about your departure and you should be ok.

    5. Mrs_helm*

      Re: gaining the experience for one year would be worth it

      So would gaining a years experience somewhere else, if you get another job.

    6. MsM*

      > it was too stressful filling the position

      Hmm, could that be because she *has* to keep refilling it because no one wants to stick around? If so, I guarantee that her being well-known means there are at least as many people who will understand why you left as those who will judge you for it. (And frankly, a prospective employer thinking she can do no wrong may be a useful gauge that’s not going to be a good organizational fit for you, either.)

    8. Karen from Finance*

      Listen, don’t let her emotionally blackmail you into staying in a toxic situation. Quitting is never a betrayal because you don’t owe your employers anything but your services in exchange for your compensation. Don’t let her drag you into that frame of mind.

    9. Bostonian*

      Thank you for updating!

      As others have mentioned, I wouldn’t take her threat too seriously. If anything, it’s information to keep in mind when you do find a new job (i.e., it might actually make sense to leave without notice so there’s no time for her to try to “influence” your new employer if she finds out who it is).

      Good luck!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      She is going to ruin your rep. This coming from a woman who turns on tears the way the rest of us turn on a water faucet?

      Braggarts are interesting people. They are so impressed with themselves that we don’t have to be. They are doing it for us. The thing about braggarts is that usually what they are bragging about is not true. In her case, people with real clout and real power don’t need to talk about it. She doesn’t have clout/power.

      See if you can discreetly find out what kind of pull she does have. Perhaps you can find a former employee. Perhaps you can find someone in the industry who knows her. Ask what kind of rep she has. This takes a bit, keep an ear out and see what you can find.

      On other things:
      Bosses who have to threaten ruining your rep to keep you in their employ are telling you they don’t know how to manage people. Leaders can lead by lifting people up or beating them down. She beats them down.

      I like to do worst case scenario because I know how to worry and worry. So go to your worst case scenario and figure out what you will do. My thought, you landed this job in this field. If she blackballs you then you will find another field and land another job. You found this one, so you have the abilities all in place, you can do it again. This isn’t about actually finding a new field. It’s about deciding that this woman is not going to rob you of your own self. You are still you, this capable, smart person.

      So what I would recommend is that you go find that shiny new job. Once you get it and you go to give notice, gush all over the place. “I can’t believe I got this job. I owe it all to you. You did so much for me. I will always remember you.” (This is not a lie, she reminded you that you can do better and so you reached for more.) Flatter her all over the place. Tell her the offer is too good and you absolutely cannot turn it down. But you are so very sad to leave. (Not sad enough to change your mind, though.)

      She tipped her hand a lot here. I already mentioned she inadvertently told you she had no skills as a manager. Additionally, she is scared crapless you will quit. I wonder what is up with that? Is that a tip of an iceberg such as her boss told her “you lose one more employee and you’re outta here!” No way to know what is behind that comment. And she told you that she emotes all over the place. This is a person who privately feels things are out of control. She needs you to act in control in order to comfort herself.

      Let us know how your search is going. See if you can find just one place this week that actually appeals to you. Maybe/maybe not apply, but just see if you can find something that interests you.

    11. Not A Manager*

      You know how Alison sometimes says that when you’re in a toxic, dysfunctional workspace, it totally skews your sense of what’s normal? This is an example.

      This manipulative, batshit lady has you convinced that she can’t live without you, and that she won’t let you live without her. This is the behavior of an abuser. I think you should get out before you get gaslit any more. At the very least, be sure that your therapist and your support system are giving you really clear reality checks.

  29. References*

    I’m in the middle of a job hunt and have an issue regarding references. I’m currently in my third professional job. At my previous/second job, I was failing a PIP (for work quality). Thankfully I got my current job before the end of my PIP so there’s no gap in my resume. However I’m at a loss for providing a reference from that job. In my industry, it would be INCREDIBLY unusual to not include my manager as a reference.

    The topic of a reference came up before I left and my manager said that if he was ever contacted he would speak to my strengths but that he’d have to also say that I was going to be fired. While not discussed, I strongly believe I wouldn’t be able to ask them to just say they aren’t able to provide one (and even then, I think that wouldn’t help me much).

    I can have someone else from that job provide a reference who can speak to my work but I’m still at a loss for explaining why I can’t provide my manager as one. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

    1. AliceW*

      I guess it depends on your field/industry. I work in finance but I’ve never been asked to specifically provide references from my previous direct managers or ever been questioned as to why I haven’t provided my direct manager as a reference. Many companies won’t allow employees to give out references- just dates of employment. I have never found that my references were all that vital in obtaining a new job (for junior or senior positions). Pretty much if they liked my resume, I interviewed well and they could at least confirm my employment dates, I was fine.

    2. Answering Anon*

      As someone whose had some negative job experiences, along with overwhelmingly positive ones, in my past, I empathize. My suggestion is to 1) put down whoever you can from that job who can be the best reference, AND 2) have an answer prepared and ready if they ask more details about that position and your relationship with your manager. I recommend being honest if asked, but proactive as well – meaning you can be honest that you struggled with xx and yy at this job, but then also give specifics on what you learned from that situation and what steps you’ve taken to improve in those areas.

      So it’s a combination of not offering the potential negative information unasked, but not trying to hide it if you have direct questions either with a well-thought out response. At that point they’ll either choose to focus on the growth you’ve made, or they won’t. It’s scary and it sucks, but once you get that next position the mental power that old job has over you diminishes greatly. Good luck.

      1. Not a cat*

        I agree with this. Once, while carefully telling an interviewer about BAD THINGS at a prior employer and she said, “Oh, your boss was a complete shit. I get it.”

        I was greatly relieved.

  30. Back to School*

    I am going back to school to get a second degree in Accounting and I was just looking for advice or words of wisdom from the commenters or anyone who is in accounting now.

    I am currently in the Insurance industry at a Fortune 500 company. We have various accounting positions within our insurance divisions as well as whole separate accounting and finance division. I’m currently part of an underwriting team in my division; I basically do all the background/grunt work for the underwriters I support and I’ve been here 6 years. Before that I was in banking, from a teller, manager, and then into deposit operations and I was there for a total of 6 years.

    I’d like to stay with my current employer if I can. They pay well, have good benefits, etc and the only real complaint I have about my job is the commute (although they have FINALLY started letting us work from home, so that is a start). That being said, I wouldn’t disregard any opportunities with another company, especially if they shorten my commute and offer similar or better benefits. For example, there is one accounting firm only 15 mins away from me and I know they offer much more flexible schedules, WFH, and unlimited PTO after 5 years.

    Any advice on switching industries? I don’t want to just disregard the past 12 years of my working life like that experience doesn’t matter at all, there are a lot of soft skills built up even I don’t have the specific hard skill they’re looking for yet. Also, if there is an open position within my company or an outside one should I go ahead and apply even if I don’t have my degree yet? Or wait until closer to completion of my program? My program will take 2 years to complete (since I have a previous degree) and I do plan on going ahead and getting the masters as well.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Natalie*

      One of the things that I really like about accounting is that literally every organization that functions has some kind of accounting – big business, small business, NFP, government, education, you name it, they use money somehow and they need someone to tell them where the money came from and where it went. I can only speak to accounting in industry (rather than working for a public accounting firm), but I think you can absolutely make use of your previous experience. Having practical knowledge of how a business functions can actually be very helpful – maybe you already know a lot of the terminology used in that industry, or you can detect errors quickly because you know what’s typical. For example, I started in property management as a general admin and read a ton of draft leases. When I moved into accounting I had a good memory of what normal lease terms, rent bumps, fees, etc were and it helped me identify mistakes.

      1. Back to School*

        Yeah, that’s one of the reasons why I felt going back for accounting would be a good career move. Right now with where I’m at they really push getting the CPCU and going on to be an underwriter. That’s the basic progression from where I’m at now. And it isn’t that management won’t help you develop other skills or get experience to move to other things, it just seems to drop to the bottom of the priority list if it’s not the ‘typical path’.

    2. CaffeinatedBeanCounter*

      Agree with Natalie, accounting is very industry flexible because at the end of the day everyone has to file a tax return and all companies have to report to investors. I’m currently at a Fortune 500 insurance company too, but previously worked at a hedge fund and a Fortune 500 technology company. I will say that I find insurance the most interesting of the three.

      1. Back to School*

        I have seen some interesting things on the insurance side. And so much “creative” underwriting. But yes, the fact that it’s very flexible was a big reason I decided to go in this direction.

        Sorry reply is so late, just got caught up with life.

    3. it happens*

      I would suggest that you keep an eye on internal postings for accounting positions. Also, do what you can to meet people in that department- get involved in cross-departmental committees, employee interest groups, volunteer stuff. Once you’re halfway through your program you can probably start talking seriously to people in the department about finding a place for you/keeping an eye out for opportunities. Keep doing good work and building your reputation.
      Moving internally is usually much easier than starting from scratch, But don’t avoid looking for outside positions, because there’s no guarantee…

      1. it happens*

        And I forgot, any “real world” projects for the educational program give you a great reason to talk to the accounting folk in your company! (So they know who you are, what you’re interested in, and how very well you respect their time and expertise…)

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I work only with small business as their in house accounting. It’s my favorite thing in the world. I would die at a firm of any size, I kind of hate everyone else in accounting for the simple fact they’re often making my life harder.

      As you move through life always keep in mind everyone has their own internal controls. Don’t expect others (aka vendors or clients) to know your setup.

      It’s true accounting is everywhere and vital for every business. But oh man, does it vary in so many ways.

      1. Hamburke*

        I’m a bookkeeper for small businesses. We work with several different CPAs – can’t agree with you more here! Every chart of accounts is set up a bit differently based on their CPAs advice.

      2. Back to School*

        Yeah, everyone has their own way of doing things/how they like things done. But I think that’s true basically everywhere. :)

    5. Former Retail Manager*

      Wayyyyy late to this party (took a hiatus..long story…but I do love the Friday open thread….hope you’re following replies). I have a different take than the other commenters. How long will this degree take you to complete? You say only 2 years, but you intend to go on and get your Master’s as well, so you’re looking at 4 years total, assuming you’re able to attend school full time while also working full time. Also, are you able to pay for this education in cash/with savings or will you be going into debt to do it? How old are you now? 30’s, 40’s? I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, truly, but education isn’t cheap. What will be the salary difference between what you make now and your future estimated salary? Is there any other path that you can take to achieve a higher salary without such a lengthy education commitment? Perhaps a Master’s, but no accounting degree, could open some doors for you and would enable you to commit only 2 years to your education rather than 4.

      For what it’s worth, I was a retail manager who changed industries to accounting, but I was finished with school by the time I was in my late 20’s so, despite the student loan debt of $40k, I was still in a good position. For me it was worth it, but that may not be the case for everyone. Also, I do agree with other commenters that accounting is a varied and flexible industry that is really a necessity for every company and that brings a certain level of job security. You will almost certainly be able to find something in accounting in an industry that you enjoy. Also, if you do decide to go all the way and get your Master’s, please, please get your CPA. It’s really the gold standard in accounting and much more valuable than a Master’s alone. Best of luck!

      1. Back to School*

        Well it will be 2 years to get the BA, which I think is what I had been focused on in the OP. My company now offers great benefits and one of them is tuition reimbursement. It basically works out to them paying half and my only stipulation is I have to stay one year from the date of the last reimbursement payment made to me. Another reason to look more within my company for jobs than without.

        Knowing the progression of job grades within my company, it would jump me up 2 grades immediately and depending on the path you choose, has the potential to go into the 6 figure range at the highest levels. I seem to have always found myself in positions that pay $30-40k so getting up to $45k, $50k, or even $60k annually would be fantastic for me. I kinda do the Dave Ramsey thing when it comes to money, I say kinda b/c he would say I shouldn’t go at all unless I can pay for everything now, but this will be the only debt I have and I will be paying it back as I go.

        I definitely plan on getting the CPA as well, but many of the job postings I’ve been looking at have asked for the Masters and the CPA (not an either/or) and my company’s job path “career progression plans” ask for the masters and then the CPA so I figure, I’m in this, I might as well do it all the way.

        Sorry for such a late reply, just got caught up with life :)

  31. Amber Rose*

    It’s official. I’m going back to school at the end of the month after… oh man, like an actual decade. It’s just one class on Wednesday evenings (I’m still trying to learn Japanese), but it’s still pretty exciting. Previously the cost was prohibitive, but now husband has a work fund for professional development that covers stuff like classes. It turns out universities have continuing education classes that don’t require enrollment in a degree program, which I’m sure everyone thinks is obvious but is a revelation to me. I’m actually nervous as hell. I’m worried about balancing school with my job (I have never worked while going to school). About being wiped out on Thursday mornings. About passing. About being “old”, as silly as that sounds.

    Anyone else wait until 30+ to try new things or go back to school and feel old about it?

    I’m making 2019 my “year of trying new things even if they are scary or might fail” and I’m worried that the biggest hurdle is going to be my astounding talent for talking myself out of things using patently ridiculous reasons.

    1. WeirdlyQualified*

      I left academia in my early 30s to work in IT. My husband retired in his early 50s from engineering, spent a year in school, and is now a massage therapist.

      You got this!

    2. Hellanon*

      Got my master’s degree at 43 – made me feel as if I hadn’t used my brain AT ALL in the intervening 20 but is was such a good experience and gave me access to a career I wouldn’t have had otherwise. Thing is, though, adults learn very differently than kids so, so you’ll want to get experimental with your study strategies & be willing to ask the instructor for help if you feel like you are struggling.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I think it should be OK since I’ve been doing my best with a language learning app for the last year or so. When I care about something, I put my all into it. The class is because I can only get so far on my own.

    3. SharedDriveUser*

      I went back to school in my 50’s to earn a BA in business to support my BA in history. Got hooked and now have 2 Master’s degrees and a Ph.D. – and I’m still over 50!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Wow, that’s awesome. I’d love to go back to school for another degree but there’s just no way right now. Maybe in a few years.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      I’m 33 and have been back in school to finish my bachelors/combined masters since 2015. I take one 7 week course at a time online and love it. I don’t get bored with a full semester, I don’t have to “go to” class and can do the work when I’m available. There are tons of us “non traditional” students out there.

      Good luck!

    5. The Grammarian*

      I took a continuing education Spanish class at a local community college last year (I’m in my 30s). It was great! Most of the people in the class were retirement age. I actually would like to take more Spanish classes and coding classes too…but I don’t know if there are any continuing education coding classes.

      Have fun trying new things! Buena suerte! :D

    7. ArtK*

      I went back and got a master’s degree after 35+ years in industry. I graduated 1 day after my 60th birthday. I was nervous about going back. I wasn’t a great student in undergrad, but everything just clicked for me this time around.

      This was a mostly online program for working professionals. One course per quarter. I was older than most of my fellow students but there were a couple of dinosaurs close to my age. It was a great program and nobody felt uncomfortable about age.

      Go for it!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I have to keep reminding myself that I don’t expire at 30.

        I don’t mean that in an offensive way, just that there’s this attitude I seem to have picked up on from the people around me where women have a shelf life of 30 years, after which its all dust and cobwebs and cats, and status quo. I know it’s wrong, but it’s always there in the back of my mind.

        1. ArtK*

          I’m sure the extra layer of sexism makes it a lot more difficult. I wish I had better words or a magic wand. All I can say is that opinions like that say far more about the people who hold them, and the environment they enjoy, than say anything about you. I sometimes use the “People who care, don’t matter; people who matter, don’t care” mantra when dealing with outside expectations.

        2. Fact & Fiction*

          I used to play online video games (SWTOR for fellow geeks) with a “friend” who would joke that I was past the woman’s shelf life of 35. He had some other awful opinions about women (based on bad experiences with some real-life gold-diggers, but DUDE. Stop blaming all women for the actions of a few!) and there is a reason why I “used to” play games with him. Life’s too short to put up with misogyny from ANYONE, much less a “friend.”

          All this to say that YES, there is a reason that we women often have that terrible fear that we’re past our shelf lives. Super sad that we are still made to feel this way considering that we’re supposed to be long past the days of “OMG you didn’t marry at 20 and pop out 4 babies by 25 you’re going to die ALONE AND MISERABLE!” Meh.

        4. The Other One*

          I went back to university at 30. I did actually better than the first time around, because I was much more focused and knew myself better and wasn’t afraid of being “uncool” any more. At first I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to connect to other students because of the age difference, so I put in some effort in from the start and it turned out not to be a problem at all. Also it can be freeing to be past the age which sexist men think is a woman’s “shelf life”. You can stop worrying about appealing to them now. Good luck and have fun!

    9. De-Archivist*

      Got a second degree at over 30. Finished my MA at 34. I’m applying to Ph. D. programs now. Yeah, it’s a little weird at first, but I felt like being older positioned me to understand the material better, engage with it more deeply, and focus more on my studies.

      My mom finished a BA at over 55, and now that she’s over 60 is working on another for free.

      You’ll do great. Just put yourself on a schedule, study or read a little bit every day, and be mindful when your insecurities try to keep you from doing something that will enrich your life.

    10. irene adler*

      Given this is an evening class, I’m betting you’ll find few traditional students as your classmates. So you’ll fit right in.
      RE: wiped out on Thursday mornings
      Don’t consume too much caffeine on Wed for your class. Otherwise, you’ll never get any sleep afterwards.

      I have taken evening classes. And have had to report for work the next morning at 4:30 am. So some mornings I was running on 4-5 hours of sleep.

      Getting up isn’t too hard. Just do it and the body will get into motion. It knows the ‘drill’.
      Don’t do your most demanding mental work on the mornings after a late night. I try to do lab work on those mornings.
      And I’ve been taking classes ever since I graduated. I’m over 50 now. Those on-line classes (when I can take them) are such a blessing!

    11. NeverNicky*

      Dropped out of uni at 20. Went back part time evenings in 2007 at the age of 38 and I graduated in 2012 at the age of 43. And I wasn’t the oldest on my programme – we had an 83 year graduate a couple of years before I did.

      Yes, it’s hard juggling study, work and family but SO worth it – genuinely life changing for me. But an insulated coffee mug may become your best friend!

    13. Salyan*

      In my early thirties, I decided that I needed to stretch my mind and try some new things. Over the past 4-5 years, I have:
      a. Spent a year learning ASL in evening classes,
      b. Spent two summers volunteering as a costumed historical interpreter on weekends,
      c. Joined a choir for several semesters,
      d. Completed most of a certificate program in fund-raising for work, and
      e. Taken a solo backpacking trip overseas.
      Sometimes it’s a bit nerve-wracking going out of one’s comfort zone, but it’s worth it. ;-)

      1. Amber Rose*

        Oh wow, that’s awesome! I aspire to be as courageous as you. I have a list of things I want to try this year but I am actually so scared. I’m not giving up, just… it’s hard. One thing at a time for now.

    14. Anon attorney*

      It’s great that you’re doing this.

      I got my law degree in my late thirties and now, in my late forties, am doing a part time degree in another subject for no reason other than that I’ve always wanted to know more about it. The brain doesn’t have an expiration date.

      I hope you enjoy your classes!

    15. Dr. Anonymous*

      I cried the week before starting Med school in middle age because I was afraid the other students wouldn’t like me. It turned out fine. You can feel weird emotions about going back to school. Just resolve to try to enjoy the process.

    16. Doodle*

      Professors *love* “older” students (you’re not that old!). In general, non traditional ages students take class more seriously, prepare for class, participate, acknowledge when they need help, and work to improve. You’ll be fine!

    17. J*

      I’m 31 and went back to school a year ago. Felt moderately weird about it, and somewhat old, and very trepidatious. I actually started plucking my grey hairs because while I’d not minded them before, I felt weird having grey hairs as a student.

      And …..It turns out it’s been great for me! I’m at a community college, so a lot of my classmates are nontraditional. And speaking of being a nontraditional student? I’m a much better and happier student this time around. I wasn’t a party girl, but I did procrastinate and pull all-nighters. These days, though, I start everything early, prioritize getting my 8 hrs of sleep, and pay attention to what types of studying work best for me. I’ve been vastly more calm and successful.

      I’m also much, MUCH better at framing things to stay on task. At 18-22, it was difficult for me to apply myself to classes that didn’t interest me. This past semester? I took pharmacology, and every time I thought about how I hated it and wanted to drop the class (so, most days :p ) I reminded myself that is was a crucial step in my career training.

      This is all to say: don’t sell yourself short! I bet all the stuff you’ve been up to since your first go round at college has actually better prepared you to go back to school. It may feel awkard at first, but stick with it, and once you get some momemtum it’s a great feeling.

    18. Bruno*

      When I graduate in May it will be 30 years start to finish for my bachelor’s degree (life, you know). It’s been exciting and terrifying and everything in between. Having a supportive significant other has been the key for me. You’ll do great!

    19. Froschkugel*

      My mum did her first degree when my youngest sibling was old enough to start kindergarten (so my mum was in her mid-30s) and then just now, in her 50s, did a MBA. It was part-time programme for professionals, but she was still the oldest person there. And yet she smashed it and just last year got a massive promotion at work. She basically started an entire new career after me and my siblings had moved out. It’s awesome.

  32. Katty Kat*

    I was laid off mid August and have been unemployed ever since. To get unemployment I have to do 5 job search activies a week- apply for jobs, interview, take classes, meet with recruiter s….- in the beginning I tried to do everything right. Got professional help with my resume, reasearched jobs before applying, customizing cover letters, reaching out to friends and acquaintances for leads. But almost 100 job applications, 50+ rejections, and only 8 phone interviews later. I’m burnt out.
    I had a really good phone interview right before Christmas and they said they wanted to bring me in after the new year but I havent heard back from the scheduler yet, I made it to the next round for a state job, but was told it could take 4-6 weeks before they actually schedule and interview.
    I have to keep applying for jobs, but I feel like I’m just going through the motions at this point, I’m trying to only apply for jobs in my salary range, within my skill level, within a short commute, but I feel like I’ve gone through everything and I’m running out if options.
    I’m turning 40 soon, and I work in a city with low unemployment and lots of job availablity and I’ve been questioned by some friends and family on why I haven’t found a job yet. I’m struggling right now and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know what I’m asking for just need to vent I guess.

    1. Mouse Princess*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. It is so hard to keep your chin up especially when it seems like you’re the only person with this issue. But just know that you are not alone and as long as you keep trying, you are going to find something, somehow. You may have to expand your criteria for less than ideal jobs or commutes, but just keep going. We are here for you!

    2. :(*

      Good vent!

      They are definitely valid venting points. I would just add that your friends and family aren’t the best judge of that it is you do. Lord knows I’ve tried to explain what I do and my family still good to be reminded what my degrees are.

      And remember, low unemployment numbers don’t mean it’s also not under employed. People will hyper up numbers as much as they can

    3. LKW*

      If you’re not financially struggling with unemployment then you can simply say that you managed your finances well enough that you can take your time to find the right job, not any job.

      If they’re giving you financial help, that will be harder to say.

    4. WellRed*

      It’s only January 3, lots of people probably aren’t really back to business until next week. Try to ignore the negative questioning from friends and family.

    5. Episkey*

      I’m not sure if this is exactly what you are asking, but when I was on UE, I would apply thoughtfully to jobs that I thought sounded like a good fit — but to satisfy the UE requirements (if there weren’t enough “good” jobs that week to apply to) — I had a standard resume/cover letter that I would shoot off to any job that seemed even remotely something I could do. It took very little time and effort and if any of those jobs actually called for an interview, I could evaluate if I really wanted to go to the interview or not. If I didn’t want to go, I just wouldn’t call back. (The UE office will never know that you didn’t go on an interview if it was offered, just log that you applied — or even if you turn down a job that is offered to you — which I did once because the salary was so low).

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Does it also fulfill the UE requirement to apply for “moonshot” jobs – the ones that sound awesome but are probably beyond your qualifications?

        1. Gatomon*

          Technically so? I used to work in my state’s department of labor and we did help people with some UI stuff (though we were NOT UI so none of this is official in any way). For a job you don’t think you could get… I think it would need to be within reason. If you were a janitor with 20 years experience and applied to be a helicopter pilot, with no helicopter piloting experience… I don’t think that is reasonable and I wouldn’t chance it messing up your UI benefits. If you’re a junior analyst and you apply to a manager position in your field, that might fly. You’d have to speak to a UI representative to really get a good answer though.

          The one thing you probably don’t want to do is apply for a job you know you wouldn’t take. What we were told to say to people with questions was that turning down an offer for ANY job or refusing ANY interview could impact your benefits. Even if the reason was probably valid (wage too low, would require relocation, etc.), you could still end up in limbo with no benefits for weeks while someone made a decision.

          Also I know that when I left my position they were seriously stepping up UI enforcement with more frequent calls to employers to verify applications and statuses, so if you were called for an interview and never responded, or turned down an offer, UI might actually find out about that. My recommendation is to not do anything that could be interpreted as UI fraud. In my state they can look back up to 3 years and the penalties are steep.

    6. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      If it helps at all, my husband just went through something very similar – was unemployed for a little over 5 months and was very defeated and worn down when he got a great job offer. He thought that the interview had gone poorly because his confidence was so down and he stumbled on a few questions. However, after working there a short time one of his interviewers told him they could tell he was nervous but also that he was intelligent and capable. All this is to say, hang in there and the right job will come along!

  33. Juli G.*

    My boss (who I love) is moving onto her next role. They’re looking to fill internally. When I think of viable candidates, there’s only one that I really don’t want to work for and it’s pretty unlikely she’ll be offered it for a few different reasons.

    I also have a hard time building rapport with managers in the past – my current one is very similar to me which is why it’s worked well. I don’t have bad relationships, they’re just not easy and feel overally formal because I’m so bad at small talk. Ugh, I’m really anxious about all this.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Captain Awkward had a note the other day that she was working on a “how to small talk” post. Keep an eye open for that.

    2. Lumen*

      Having a boss leave, whether you have a good relationship with them or not, is pretty much always anxiety-inducing. You’re not alone!

      And until Capt. Awkward’s how-to guide comes out, start small. Just smile and say hello to people, or make brief eye contact and a friendly nod as you pass in the hallway. Ask total surface-level questions like “How are you today?” and congenially accept a “Good, how are you?” Small talk is really just about showing a mild curiosity and kindness to others without feeling (or pressing) the need to ‘mesh’ right away.

      Best of luck, whomever you end up reporting to in the future!

    3. Hmmm*

      For small talk, it is going to depend on the person. A good place to start is looking at your boss’ desk and what they have on it. Most people keep some personal items on their desk. Commenting on one you like is a good opener and generally a very safe topic. If you like it a lot, ask where they got it. I have found the best timing is when there is some time before or after a meeting where you two are waiting. Likewise, keep some tchotchke(s) at your desk so they can get a better sense of you. A not small-talk question that my new boss really appreciated was when after our first 1:1 I asked him if he had any questions about our department I could help answer. Even internal candidates can still need assistance adjusting to a new department.

      In terms of the overall rapport issue. Try to analyze what specifically was lacking or made you think you didn’t have rapport with prior bosses. Did you experience communication issues where you butted heads with them? Did you feel you lost out on opportunities because they didn’t know much about you as a person outside of work (something that shouldn’t happen but definitely can)? I would look at the core of what you are looking to mitigate and base your approach with that in mind. Consider that you may be too hard on yourself and it has created a situation where you don’t relax because overthinking is at play (happens to us all).

    4. Blarg*

      I got choked up at my great-grandboss’s goodbye party today. Finding someone in leadership who “gets” you is freaking hard. I’m trying to focus on the fact that I did have such an amazing relationship with him, that I learned so much and grew professionally. So I can have that again. He’s not a unicorn. You, too, will find another awesome manager with good rapport. (His job will apparently remain unfilled for upwards of six months — yay government — so now I get to deal with leadership vacuum).

  34. Alice Ulf*

    I had a phone interviewer with a recruiter on Wednesday and was just scheduled for an in-person manager interview on Monday! The employer is one of the most highly-regarded in town, so wish me luck!

  35. Triplestep*

    I have a job offer! I feel like I asked all right questions, then I asked for a slightly higher salary, and stopped talking. I am waiting to hear back, and I doubt I will hear today, so this weekend is going to be tough. (Even though it rarely happens, I did have a job offer pulled after a single attempt to negotiate, so it’s hard not to feel anxious.)

    In an odd turn of events, yesterday my boss told my one teammate she thought I was looking and asked if he knew anything. The only thing I can think of is that a guy who works a few doors down may have overheard a closed door conversation I was having in my office about it a few evenings ago. The floor was empty except for this guy, and he has been known to “inform on” my teammate and me in the past.

    Oh well. If all goes well, I will be giving notice soon and – although it will lack of the element of surprise – I will still get to leave!

  36. Your you're ur*

    Has anyone ever been fired/let go from a job, but found out later that the company massively struggled to find a replacement for you? I was let go (not for cause) and have been lurking on my former company’s career website. They haven’t found anyone yet, and it’s been 4 months! Is this normal? I’m almost giddy with vengeful glee that they haven’t found anyone yet. Hah!

    1. DC*

      I quit a ToxicJob, and it took them 8 months to replace me- and it took 2 full time people to do so. The petty sugarplums dancing in my head were going crazy when I heard.

      There’s a piece of us that enjoy being validated in our perceptions that we were more important than the people who treated us badly realized.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Nope, but I did leave a job because I was wildly underpaid, and I later learned that turn around times had gone from 5 days or less (which I maintained for all but the most unreasonably large jobs) to upwards of two months, because they couldn’t find anyone who understood the work.

      I was like. Welp. Maybe you should have paid me more than minimum wage.

    3. BeanCat*

      I was let go from a job once because the parameters changed wildly and it wasn’t tenable for me, and they never ended up filling my position; it just got taken on by someone higher up. So yeah, been there!

    4. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Yes! I wasn’t fired but I quit because of the toxicity of the job. My old job comes up on job posting boards regularly. People leave comments and none of them are flattering. It’s posted on a job board today (he he he) It’s been 2 years now since I’ve quit and my best guess is that at least 10 people have cycled through it. Not going to point fingers but the common theme is a micro-managing passive/aggressive boss.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I left a job because I suddenly stopped getting along with my supervisor– or, rather, she stopped getting along with me. Our boss, who had brought in my supervisor and was going through some weird issues, threw up his hands and gave up on me. It was time to go. As soon as I gave notice, my supervisor called a friend of hers and brought her in to replace me. I heard from three people on separate occasions that my replacement didn’t even come close to replacing me (she didn’t have the skills to do 65% of that job) and they all hated her, including my former direct report. So it wasn’t that my position wasn’t filled, it was that it was filled badly, and the schadenfreude was delicious.

    6. Uncivil Engineer*

      I wasn’t let go, but I left a job for a lateral position in another division. My grandboss and I weren’t really seeing eye to eye on the quantity of work I was getting done and it was time to move on anyway. Four years later, the work I used to do is spread over the equivalent of 2 FTE’s, one of which is a higher level position created to pick up the slack… that I applied for and was not hired into because, according to the hiring manager who is also my old grandboss, I am too disagreeable… but the quality of their work and response time is still not where it was when I was doing the job.

      I try to keep my vengeful glee to myself at work. I am not always successful.

    7. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Ha the vengeful glee is so real and sooo satisfying. I left a job because changes made due to an acquisition were making my work unbearable and basically destroying me from the inside out. When I left I was so sure that I was terrible because everyone else was doing fine, but it turns out I was just the canary in the coal mine who got hit with the brunt of the changes first. Talking with a friend who still works there tells me the place has gone completely downhill, a majority of the people have quit, and it’s just a hot mess overall.

      Still makes me giggle from time to time.

    8. Qosanchia*

      Not me personally, but my dad had roughly that happen. My mom left the company where they both worked for a better paying job far away, and he got sort of underhandedly forced out (is my understanding from their conversations at the time). After he left, they had to hire two people to fill in the space.

    9. Knitter*

      hahaha–yes.

      And two other people were still let go or “reassigned” at the same time. One quit. There were a total of 7 of us with the same title. My position was turned into 1.5. When I checked 6 months after my last day, they still had to fill 3 of the positions. The one they had filled was filled by someone within the organization who was in an adjacent field but didn’t have the correct licensure. The department head also resigned a few months before my last day (though I got the impression it wasn’t entirely her decision). Her job was posted MULTIPLE times during the time I was still in the organization.

      I’ve heard from connections that the org is getting a very bad reputation in my field. I doubt that will lead to changes at the top. I definitely have revenge fantasies (professional ones, like things I can say if I run into them at conferences) which were partially satiated by knowing how hard my position (now positions) was/is to fill.

    10. SignalLost*

      Yep! I was unfairly fired (as in, they gave wildly disparate answers to everyone and attached my firing to someone else they fired for a literally not possible reason) and the person who replaced me was so bad at the job that she broke very well documented code and didn’t have a grasp of graphic design. They let her go to save money and turned the website over to a third party company (so, much cheaper!) and just stopped designing anything. I found out last week that the org folded on EXACTLY the time scale I told them they would. Which was not related to losing me, but was related to the endemic problems that led them to fire me in the first place.

    11. De-Archivist*

      Yup. I’m told one of my former workplaces started looking like Lord of the Flies after I exited. I’d gotten to the point where I was managing my team and peers who were less experienced around my boss, and when I couldn’t take it any longer (the last time I got passed over for a promotion because of “reasons”), I wasn’t fired but just couldsn’t take it anymore. Things started crashing and burning within weeks. My peer managers left. My boss was forced out. Most of the team moved on, so I eventually lost my gossip pipeline.

      I feel gloriously vindicated.

    12. Lilysparrow*

      I left one office job to change careers, and Excellent Seniorboss was sorry to lose me.

      Obnoxious Juniorboss could barely contain his glee and couldn’t wait to see the back of me. If he could bear to sully his lilywhite hands on menial labor, he would’ve helped me pack.

      The sad calls from the admin/HR team dried up after a year or so. None of the existing staff would touch the position for any inducement. The fresh meat cycled through so fast, I think the record short stay was less than a week. Last I heard, they just had an agency sending temps until they could find one to stick.

    13. I See Real People*

      I left a job with a toxic crazy boss who was known for her love of firing people. It was a large corporation. I gave an exit interview to a third party company three weeks later and provided documentation to them about her abuses. I also wasn’t the first assistant she ran off. They didn’t fire her, but she was censured and wasn’t allowed to have an assistant again for 18 months!

    14. DCGirl*

      I left a job for a number of reason, but one was that my title didn’t reflect my actual job. My job title was Senior Marketing Specialist when I was doing the work of a Proposal Manager. I kept being told that you couldn’t have “manager” in your title if you didn’t have direct reports, never mind that I nimbly managed an ever-changing cast of characters to produce up to 75 proposals a year. Because they wouldn’t change my title, I reached the top of the pay grade for Senior Marketing Specialist and got a one-time check equating to 2.5% of my salary instead of a raise my last year there.

      When I left the my Great-Grand Boss asked to do an exit interview with me and I told him that the company would not be able to replace me and my years of experience without changing the title to Proposal Manager. Lo and behold, after six months of searching they changed the title.

    15. Chaordic One*

      Several years ago I was demoted out of an administrative assistant position in a company’s H.R. department. I really worked my butt off, but it was a hot, toxic, dysfunctional mess of a department. After I was moved out, my first replacement quit after the first week. The second one stayed for two months and the third one for four. The fourth replacement is still there (as far as I know), but they did revise the job substantially when they hired her as they finally realized that the problems with the position were with the nature of the job (the workload and the expectations) and not with the people attempting to fill the position.

      Yes, I enjoyed the schadenfruede, as the first three replacements all quit, but it still bothers me that no one ever offered me the job back after redesigning it. I just got thrown under the bus. I’m so glad I don’t work there anymore.

    16. Windchime*

      After years of glowing performance reviews and many promotions, the Powers That Be suddenly decided that I was a shitty employee. Things got steadily worse and I finally quit when I was a trembling, crying, anxious mess. I was on a PIP so I’m sure they were 5 minutes away from firing me.

      Fast forward to today: The director and manager who bullied me were both fired. Another manager quit in a blaze of glory with no notice. The only remaining manager has resigned because once all the others were gone, it became apparent that she knew nothing.

      Karma is my bitch.

    17. Former Hotel Worker*

      Not let go, but I walked out from a waitressing job after three weeks and noticed that they are perpetually advertising for staff. The place had a real culture of rudeness and sexual harassment. They just… dropped into training at the first day that one of the kitchen staff would make obscene comments literally any time you walked into a room, and the owner firmly believed that all waiting on and bar work was “common sense” and if you had to have anything explained more than once then you were obviously an idiot. I was once yelled at for saying “excuse me”. They now seem to be advertising in the local paper pretty much every week and I’ve heard people comment that they seem to have trouble retaining staff. I can’t imagine why.

    18. Teeth Grinder*

      I disagreed with my boss about the accounting treatment of some highly material financial positions. (It was right after the financial accounting standard for derivatives was changed, for those of you in the profession.) Rank has its privileges, even when they’re just plain wrong. The financial statements were presented the way HE wanted them. There had already been a 90% turnover since the assistant controller started, not that anyone blamed him, of course. /s
      About a year after I was let go, I learned that the banking regulators had not agreed with said boss’s interpretation. The bank president, the controller, the assistant controller, the head of internal audit, the head of information technology and the head of treasury were all out, and the bank had to enter into a written agreement to clean up its act, basically. TWICE, because they still hadn’t gotten it together by the next annual examination.
      Meanwhile, I had a new consulting job paying almost twice what I made there, and my blood pressure was down forty points.
      The assistant controller was deluded enough to send me a connection request through LinkedIn later. Delete!

  37. :(*

    Recommendations for clothes!

    I am a woman but more comfortable in pants and generally men’s fashion then women’s. Not exactly bitch style but… Well, maybe…. I was able to find a suit jacket in the men’s section of Uniqlo that actually fit and shaped around my curves (!) So I’m really happy about that. I just need to find some go-to pants for interviews and work.

    I’m a bit more busty and with some…. Not sizeable butt but my waist is a 34 with my hips being a 40 (so I usually go for a size 14 and have really loose waists). Most women’s pants are too tight around the thighs but men’s pants give me (there’s no delicate way of saying this) toe. Any recs would really be appreciated.

    1. Hobbert*

      Have you looked at Wildfang? They do a menswear style for women and I loooove their shirts. I haven’t bought any pants from them but it might be worth a glance.

      1. Arielle*

        LOVE Wildfang but most of their pants are cropped for some reason. I have a couple of pairs of their Ultimate WF Trouser which are incredibly comfortable but they’re drawstring so may be a little casual for many workplaces.

    2. Amber Rose*

      One option is to buy woman pants that fit your thighs, and have a professional adjust all the other bits that don’t fit.

      1. Catsaber*

        This is a good choice if you are needing some really sharp, polished looking pants for interviews – I would invest in tailoring when I need to look really polished. You can also try getting those little waistband-cincher elastic things that function as a mini belt to close the back gap.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I am forever having to do this with shirts. I have a large chest and t-rex arms, so basically everything I buy that fits my torso has sleeves that extend 6 inches past my hands. :/

              1. Mrs Mary Smiling*

                Who knew that here is where I would find my people? Can we also have a moment for short-legged but not short-drop? Today’s life skill: hemming.

                1. Amber Rose*

                  Yes, this also. I have a long torso and short legs, so I’m average height but must hem ALL the pants.

                  Also I’m knock-kneed and have huge feet. I am honestly sometimes surprised I haven’t been reduced to walking around barefoot in burlap sacks.

                2. Lurk Til I Can’t Help Myself*

                  Also vertically challenged, and hems are maddening. Recently, I was wearing black pants I found in the back of the closet, thinking how great they were, and what a lucky break! Around lunchtime, I realized they were in the back of the closet because the hem on one leg was half blown out. I had to staple it up. A couple of hours later, a dryer sheet worked its way out from the other leg in front of a client.

            2. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Long-armed person sighs deeply… at least you can tailor them to be shorter. Many “long sleeved” shirts make me look like a teenager who didn’t notice a growth spurt.
              Sleeveless shells are my friend, and I’m learning to knot my own sweaters to go over them.

    3. Catsaber*

      I feel you on the waist/hip ratio…my waist is about 33 and my hips around 41-43. I’ve had some success with Uniqlo as their pants tend to be quite stretchy, but it’s always a gamble. I recently tried their EZY ankle length pants and the L was too large, so I returned them, but they had a good amount of stretch all over but still looked like smart trousers, so you might try those. I have found most Uniqlo pants are very generous with amount of stretch and accommodate my belly pudge nicely. :)

    4. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      I had a great experience once at Talbots after I’d exhausted myself trying about 6 other stores in an urgent “need a suit for tomorrow” situation.

      1. Tess McGill*

        +1 My go-to is Talbots because of the pants, and the fact that their clothes will fit my hips AND my chest, but still give me a waist.

        1. personalshopper*

          Yep, Talbots is great. My go-to is Loft in Julie fit (curvy). Never needs tailoring.

        2. Psyche*

          Yep. Talbots is the only place I have found that have suit pants that come anywhere close to fitting me.

    5. Joielle*

      I’m about the same hip-to-waist ratio as you, and I really like Gap curvy skinny ankle pants (if skinny is the pants shape you’re looking for). They’re not super super skinny but they’re flattering and a bit stretchy. I have to replace them every couple of years when the thigh rub starts to damage the fabric but they’re not too expensive so it’s not bad.

      Otherwise, my best work clothes have been ones I’ve had tailored. Take a couple of those loose-waist pants to a seamstress and a week or two later they’ll be perfect. Even if you just do one or two pairs it’ll make a huge difference.

    6. Old Biddy*

      I’ve got a similar shape as you and have had good luck with Van Huesen outlet (womens), Ann Taylor/Loft, and Christopher and Banks. The pants are boring black interview slacks and nothingto write home about, though.

    7. Theo*

      From a butch: if you can afford it, tailor it. I’d recommend starting with men’s pants — they’re more durable, with more fabric — and bringing them to a tailor you TRUST not to make you look girly. (I had to ask other butches and transmasculine folks for recommendations.)

      I do find people mostly look at shirts to code gender, so definitely check out Wildfang for shirts. If you can afford it, again, I can’t overly recommend custom-made stuff. It’s a real blessing if you’re gender non-conforming.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I saw the typo and giggled wildly. I tend to wear more severe corporate clothing (suits, pointy-toed heels, etc.) and I like the term “bitch style”!

          1. Kat in VA*

            Ayo, just rockin’ muh bitch style, don’t mind me.

            *clacks off down the hall in pointy d’orsay kitten heels*

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Zomg there’s a character description in there for one of our AAM fiction writers!

    8. pretzel lawyer*

      Hi! I have a very curvy bottom half, and betabrand work yoga pants have been aces for me. (29″ waist, 42″ hips plus I’m a millionty feet tall). They truly do pass for real pants, as in I have worn them to court with a blazer and heels, and they feel like pajamas. I’ve had very good luck with Calvin Klein in the blazer department too.

      good luck! workwear can be so frustrating.

      1. Kat in VA*

        +1 to Calvin Klein blazers. I have a 30″ waist but I’m 34DDD up top so finding blazers that fit without either straining at the buttons or flapping around my hips can be…challenging. Anne Klein fits similarly but a size smaller, so if you’re a CK size 8, the AK in 10 should fit relatively the same (maybe a tiny bit looser but not enough to notice).

        Pants…pants are still another matter. That 30″ waist has 35″ hips and a flat butt. Pants that fit my butt properly give me *ahem* … uh…”toe” up front, and if they don’t toe, then they’re hanging off my butt. Add in muscular thighs leftover from childhood soccer days and adulthood snowboarding days and an absolutely ridiculous 28″ inseam on a 5’8″ long-torsoed body and…yeah. Business pants are the bane of my existence, which is why I live in yoga pants the second I get off work.

    9. Ruth (UK)*

      I also typically wear men’s clothes to work. I’m not sure how useful my suggestions would be because I’m in the UK and also, I get almost all my clothes from charity shops so just whatever I find rather than any specific brand etc.

      However, I do use Primark when I need regular work shirts, and sometimes for trousers. I’ve had a streak of luck recently in charity shops for finding M&S corduroy trousers for around £2 or £3 (at full price, they’re like £15). They’re actually women’s trousers but straight leg and look unisex. I found some in dark blue and purple as well as black. Corduroys are generally my preferred trousers for look, feel and comfort.

    10. ChemMoose*

      Have you tried LandsEnd? I find that they have really comfortable trousers and you can customize the length. I don’t find them to be too feminine if you buy the women’s; haven’t tried the men’s.

    11. :(*

      Cool! Thank you lovelies. I’ll definitely want to do the tailor routr once I find some I want to keep for a while but Talbot’s, lands end, Uniqlo (❤️) and a few other places will have a peak through in the meantime

  38. epi*

    How do you go about starting to take advantage of flexibility, if you haven’t in the past?

    I am a PhD candidate and I usually have two jobs at my university: a long term one that pays my tuition, and a rotating cast of short term projects as a GIS or statistical analyst. They take up about half my work week. In the past, I’ve used my office for both jobs and my dissertation work, showing up roughly 9-5. I had hours which I told my supervisors were usually dedicated to their project, but they knew that in practice they could find me there any time.

    However, I am really starting to need a change. It hasn’t been good for my focus lately to feel no urgency about getting through work and out of the office (since I will be there longer than needed either way). My feelings about the physical office have changed as well, due to being sexually harassed last year, and I don’t actually need to be there to do my dissertation work. I’m not sure how to make sure I am still accountable to some schedule without my 9-5! The result is that I feel guilty whenever I am not there. I also worry about creating a perception that I just randomly don’t come in sometimes, since I was the one who created the expectation that I could be reached at the office full time.

    What if anything to say to people, order to do it, habits that help people with more flexible schedules, really anything would be appreciated. Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      What about having shorter regular core hours, and then giving yourself flexibility beyond that? People really aren’t going to expect a 10-20 hour a week PhD student to be in 9-5.

    2. Way to the Dawn*

      I would agree with fposte that PhD students are not really expected to be in 9-5. My roommate is a PhD student and she goes into the office regularly but in much shorter sets of time (unless she has meetings) and mostly does her work from home. I wouldn’t worry about your perceptions unless every other PhD is doing that.

    3. Beth*

      I’m sorry to hear about the harassment!
      For other reasons, I had to make a similar change in my schedule last year (I’m a post-doc) and I found that this is a perfect time of year to make a statement that sets people’s expectations. In an academic setting, tons of things change at the start of each semester, so most faculty and staff are used to that even if they aren’t used to it from you. I sent an email to the primary people I worked with stating my new schedule, and also posted it on the door — basically the equivalent of how someone would post office hours. I didn’t need to mention it in person, and the written version meant they could refer back to it easily.
      I don’t have much advice on the other part; I’d love to do better at that myself!

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      It helped me to have a regular schedule with posted office hours. It wasn’t MF 9-5 though, more like 4 half days. I liked the structure, and my boss and advisor knew when they could find me. I also booked a carrell at the library, not necessarily because I needed to physically be in the library but more because I liked the change in scenery.

    5. Mrs_helm*

      I wfh, and I understand your anxiety, because I felt that way when I went FT telecommute. If you can set up a regular schedule, it sounds like that will make you feel better. But if not, could you communicate your schedule weekly to some core people who need to know you are available? (And if you didn’t need availability, another suggestion is to track when/what you worked on and report that weekly to someone. Even if it technically isn’t necessary.)

    6. CC*

      Oh this is VERY common. I don’t think anyone has really, truly solved it. It helped me to know that I was not alone though, so realize you are not alone, every academic struggles with this.

      Things that have helped me: Make deadlines and stick to them, set realistic goals (so for my dissertation, I was advised to write a page a day. “But I could do more!” I said, to which the person giving the advice said “No, don’t overwhelm yourself, do a page a day.” It worked). Since you’re not comfortable at your office–try the library. Not necessarily the university library, I actually preferred public libraries.

      Good luck! It’s very difficult to manage, so don’t be too hard on yourself.

    7. Psyche*

      Tell your boss that you are going to be working on your dissertation elsewhere because the change of scenery will help you focus. If you want people to know when you will be around, you could get a small white board and fill in what times you are available each day and update it as needed. Personally, I find that changing scenery really helps me focus so I tend to rotate though working in the office, in the library, at home and in a coffee shop.

  39. Hobbert*

    Hi everyone! I need some advice. I’m in the great position of planning for my police retirement in 5 years and looking at a new career. Currently, I’m an applicant and recruitment detective in the DC Metro area. I recently earned my SHRM-CP and I’m in sign language school. My plan is to be an EEO investigator for the federal government when I retire. So, my question is: what can I do in the next five years to make my resume more attractive for this type of position? A master’s in HR? EEOC specific training? Any professional organizations that would be useful?

    Thanks in advance!

  40. Semaj*

    I had an odd conversation with my otherwise wonderful supervisor yesterday where I’m pretty sure she was trying to gently tell me not to expect the highest rating on my performance evaluation.

    Some background: I work at a University where, no surprise, we don’t get cost of living increases and our salaries aren’t exactly competitive with outside industries. In other departments I’ve been at I’ve always received the highest rating of “exceeds all expectations”, and of course this is tied to the % merit increase I receive.

    In this department they’ve decided to deviate from the standard three categories of performance to five categories and my supervisor explained to me that “with our type of role, it’s very difficult to get an exceeds all expectations”. (I work in HR, mostly on recruitments and trainings.) I handled it gracefully in the moment, but the only reason I can see that they went to a five scale system is to give fewer employees the maximum merit.

    It’s just disheartening and I’m wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences? Reflecting on my performance this year, I think I’ve done very well. I get glowing reviews from my supervisor, praise from emoloyeees I work with, and I think I’m a great fit here. Sure, I’ve made some mistakes but hasn’t everyone? It’s just a very demoralizing system and I’m left wondering who gets the highest rating? Our department, like all others I’m sure, is constantly harping in tightening up the budget and I’m sure this is related.

    Should I be straightforward in my review and ask what I can do differently next year to get a higher rating or is that taboo?

    1. Murphy*

      Ha, my university actually went from a 5 point scale to a 3 point scale, and said that most employees would get “meets” rather than “exceeds” (in an attempt to avoid giving so many people the maximum).

      I think it would be fine to ask what to do to achieve a higher rating, though I might phrase it more like “What could I do to improve in the coming year?” If you focus too much on the rating, it might sound like asking a teacher how to turn your B into an A. I know it’s different, as performance levels are tied to raises. I agree with you that it’s probably somewhat budget related.

      1. Semaj*

        Definitely agree, it’s a delicate question to ask. I feel odd about it because during all of my one-on-ones I ask some variation of that – what can I do to improve, what would you like me to change, etc and I always get – nothing, you’re doing so great!

        It’s also irritating because if I were to leave this department (which I don’t plan on doing any time soon) the outside department will sometimes request copies of your performance evaluation. I suppose the contents of it are more important than a 4 instead of a 5, but still.

        Ugh, thanks for weighing in!

    2. Catsaber*

      I also work at a university and have had this experience. I would try not to take it too personally (which is hard, I know), because most of the time it is related to factors outside your control – like budgets, or a higher-up who doesn’t give out high ratings on principle (I’ve had that!) or some other weird factor that’s not a reflection of you personally. Focus on the other evidence of your performance – praise from your supervisor and coworkers. That is more real.

      But yes, definitely ask what you can do differently to achieve a higher rating. It’s not taboo. Even if she tells you no one will ever get a higher rating, it’s still a good question to ask so you can know exactly how to improve. Because even if you DO get the highest rating…we can all improve somewhere. I had a previous manager who always gave me the highest rating and never criticized me, and honestly it was really annoying, because there were things I was doing wrong and could improve, and I never knew about it until it was too late. And even with these all-fives ratings, I still didn’t get ANY raises or promotions, because my department’s management sucked. It wasn’t until I transferred that I got into a dept where I fit in much better and really thrived, and I started getting promotions/raises because of much better management.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      That’s happened to me at the last two universities I’ve worked at. HR decides that they don’t want to see managers giving all 5s (or whatever the highest rating is), because “it’s very rare that someone is truly exceptional with nothing to improve upon” (is how my last HR department framed it). It might be unjust (because, you’re right, fewer employees will be getting the maximum reward), but it’s not personal. I think it’s totally valid and indeed wise to ask what you can work on to reach the highest rating next year!

    4. Nessun*

      I’ve had many conversations with my boss where he made it clear that he couldn’t give me a better rating because there was a quota system and only so many people could be rated “exceeds expectations” – and that he couldn’t give me the highest rating every year he wanted to because it therefore had to be farmed around to everyone who deserved it. The idea of not giving the rating to everyone who deserved it, and instead picking only some (which of course helps the budget when choosing who to give raises to, etc.) rankles with me, but it’s something I’ve just grown to accept.

      It’s absolutely fine to ask what you can do to improve your rating! As long as you communicate clearly that you understand any suggestions are not guarantees that your rating will change, you’ll show initiative and that you value learning, at the very least. Then following through, showing you can do things differently (or just continue to improve and grow) will either get you the better rating outright, or position you well to argue for it, or for further opportunities in the future.

    5. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      I hate systems like that. Where’s the motivation to do an excellent job when the best you can hope for is a mediocre review because of quotas and rules? The “we have to assume everyone is mediocre so they will have goals to inspire to” is SO PATRONIZING and really hurts morale.

    6. Pam*

      If you are union, you might also check with your bargaining unit on this- performance review issues should be covered in the contract. My unit was able to successfully push back on performance reviews, and how they connected to ‘merit’ bonuses.

    7. Cat Herder*

      Yes, I’ve had bosses who don’t believe a “5” or whatever the highest number on the scale is
      attainable while hearing from colleagues who performed less well about the “5” they got from less strict supervisor, and thus a merit raise. I’ve also had years where HR tries to rebalance for “grade inflation” and managers are encouraged to downgrade everyone a bit to save money. It’s infuriating.

    8. Cat Herder*

      P.S. If your situation allows, it might be better to just start doing the minimum at work and start consulting on the side. Sometimes the cost-benefit isn’t worth it if you’re practically killing yourself for a high rating which ends up to a 1% increase or whatever.

  41. TheBean*

    I am applying for academic jobs- I found one that I wouldn’t have to move far for (that is a huge deal for me- I have the two body problem)
    I understand that part of applying is researching the department to determine the direction and goals and see where I fit in. But the job I am applying to is for a department of only three people (it is a subset of a larger department) and their website/news is paltry at best. I’m not really sure how to go about researching these sort of things. Is it a huge no-no to contact the people in the department already to see what they are up to and what they are looking for?
    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      I would pretty strongly advise against directly contacting people you don’t know in this situation (I wasn’t clear if you might already know them or not); I’d extrapolate from recent publications and conference presentations.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I agree SO wholeheartedly with this! My partner is on the market now and a member of his cohort keeps emailing departments asking questions about whether she should apply (!), and it just makes her look immature and unfocused. Not that you’re doing this, exactly, but reaching out to people before you even apply (and even afterwards) is not something that inspires confidence.

        Almost every faculty member should have a website or a link to a CV with publications listed. If this department doesn’t do that, then I would find that pretty strange, I think, so you may have to dig on a more individual basis. My partner has researched all of the faculty members of the places he’s applying by starting with their individual websites. You can also try LinkedIn if you know their names. He has only emailed one person to ask a question, and that was because he discovered, through his research, that he knew someone in a department where he was interviewing. I also believe you can look up a person’s publications on JSTOR or something, but I’m not 100% sure on that one.

        As an aside, and this might be field dependent, you should put your CV up somewhere as well so people who are interviewing you have easy access to your background and materials if you haven’t done so already. My partner created his through his PhD program and everyone in his cohort has one.

        1. TheBean*

          Good idea about finding their linkedin-
          Only one of the three faculty has something on their department page – its different from what I am used to.

        2. Almost Academic*

          Better sources to look at for faculty work and focus than LinkedIn are usually:

          Google scholar
          ResearchGate
          Twitter
          Programs / Schedules for major conferences in your field (search by author)
          Academia.edu

          If in the USA and in science, NIH and NSF also have awards (grants) databases that you can search for lead PI, which usually gives you the most up-to-date information about what projects a scientist is working on currently. Other countries might have similar things, I’m just unfamiliar with them.

          So you might want to check out each of those places as well to see if you can find them. Good luck!

    2. persimmon*

      I am not sure what your field is, but in mine this would definitely be an etiquette breach: there is a sense that it’s asking for an unfair inside edge and/or wasting the committee’s time. The only reason to contact the committee is if you have a genuine logistics question (the posting asks for a teaching statement but the website won’t let me upload one, etc.). For the “fit” part of your letter, you could discuss aspects of the school more generally: you especially want to teach this kind of student population, this size/type of school, etc., alongside whatever you do know about the department. And then just focus the rest of your letter on your own work and qualifications and hope for the best.

      1. TheBean*

        Good ideas- thanks! I think it would be an etiquette breach as well- but my desire for this job (or at least the idea of it) might be overwhelming my common sense.

    3. MeganTea*

      Even if the departmental website is skimpy, be sure to check out the website of the larger department. Does the larger department publish some sort of annual report? Does it have a social media presence which shares news and events? And try going directly to the institution’s News page and doing a search for news related to the department and the individual faculty to see what pops. Does the institution publish statistics regarding matriculation, graduation rates, etc.? Mine does, and it breaks down the stats by college/dept/program, but you have to know where to look to find it — in our case, under the Provost’s website for the Institutional Research office. Also, would it be helpful to look at the course catalog to see the class offerings for that department?

    4. CC*

      I have found in my applications that the researching the department part actually didn’t seem to matter much. Focusing on making sure your cover letter is great and if you need recommendations, try to get those tailored specifically to the job. And be sure to pay close attention to the job description! That’s what will really give you the best information as to what they want. Good luck!

    5. tra la la*

      See if it’s possible to look up the university’s course schedules (maybe through the registrar’s page?) and then look to see what classes are being offered by this department. That will at least give you a sense of the kinds of courses being taught, and you can extrapolate from that to discuss possible instruction angles in your cover letter.

      1. Cat Herder*

        If it’s an academic department, ratemyprofessors and internal course evals can give a bit more info. Don’t forget the student newspaper, glassdoor type reviews etc.

  42. Deryn*

    I’ve started to hear back from a few of the PhD programs I’ve applied to, as interview offers are being made this month. I’ve been extended two interview invitations – and of course they overlap in dates. The first program contacted me about 3 weeks ago, and offered a choice of interviewing on Thursday or Friday, and I said Friday would work best with my work schedule. Then yesterday, I got a call from another school halfway across the country, and their interview weekend is Friday evening to Sunday morning. I used my best Allison-phrasing to email the first school and ask if there was any way I could change my date preference to Thursday to allow for travel time, but that I understood if arrangements had already been made and reiterated that I was excited to meet with them about the opportunity. I also let the second program know what was going on, and they were very understanding and said we could do a phone interview if needed. Hopefully everything will work out – I’m really interested in both programs and would love to be able to attend both interviews in person, but given that I’m rather anxious by nature, I’m surprised at how calm I am about it all!

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      If they like you, it’ll be a non-issue! I turned down an interview request because I thought something else was working out. That other one fell through, so a week after the first interview was scheduled, I emailed back and asked if they were still interviewing. They were and it was fine!

      You sound super excited and polite here, and if any of that was conveyed in your email to them, I wouldn’t worry about it!

      1. Deryn*

        I hope so! The professor who contacted me from the second school said that both he and another faculty member were interested in me and floated the possibility of a co-mentoring setup, so my gut feeling is that I’m “in demand,” so to speak, and a phone interview would be less of a drawback there than it might be other places.

        It’s funny that you say I sound polite, because I’m very aware that I’m polite and accommodating – to a fault! I actually toned down a first draft of my email to the first program because when I read it back, it sounded a tad obsequious. I kept imagining like, posting it in a comment and Allison’s little blue comment box underneath saying, “Nope, that’s too much.” I’m happy with the wording I ended up going with!

    2. Deryn*

      Oh wow, I just tabbed over to my email and had another interview offer – thankfully this one is a different weekend :)

  43. What’s with Today, today?*

    I got a promotion and raise this week! I work for a family owned media business with several stations. I’ve been the News Director for one of the stations for several years, and am now going to be over all of them (the ND for those other stations left a year ago and they have limped along). My challenge is that I’ll be managing one aspect of several employees job, remotely to boot. While news is essentially my whole job, it’s only one part of theirs. It’s a priority, but not the sole priority. Some of the staffers are older than me, have more years in media (but not news) and aren’t necessarily loving that I’ll be giving them direction, though They have all been nice and respectful. I am taking over their website and social media, which they love, b/c everyone hates that responsibility(except me). Any tips for me? Am I insane?

    3. School Inclusion Specialist*

      In a past job, I managed a few people who worked at the org part-time post-retirement. They had been in leadership positions in our field before I had even been born. During a meeting, one turned to me and said “well, you’re the boss”–signifying that the decision was mine to make. This was game-changing for me. Basically I realized that as the boss, I had to own my responsibilities and they had theirs. It didn’t make one of us better than the other, just different. The most basic expectations that I needed to have of my staff was that they let me do my job. Sometimes that meant making unilateral decisions. If there was push back (usually something like “oh, i’m surprised…”), I’d explain the rational. I would also demonstrate my respect for their experience by having collaborative conversations and respecting their areas of expertise in our planning meetings, but I didn’t need to bend over backward to accommodate this.
      What helped me most in the end boiled down to me just deciding not to care if they didn’t like being managed by someone so relatively young…but I was vigilant of any behaviors that suggested they were acting on this feeling. Never had an issue. (my entry level staff was another story…)

  44. Kathleen_A*

    I work for a medium-sized non-profit in the Midwest, and we have an opening (for a position that’s been vacant for faaaaaaaar too long, IMO!) in my department. Initial interviews will be held over the next couple of weeks, and one of the promising applicants lives in Australia (!). Why does a guy in Australia want to come to the Midwest, you may well ask? Well, he’s fallen in love with a woman who lives just a few miles north of this office.

    I neither have nor want any hiring authority myself, so this question is mostly out of curiosity, but what I wonder is…how do most places handle applicants from far, far, faaaaar away? His initial interview will be via Skype, of course, but what do people do after that? I’m sure we don’t have the budget to fly him out here for an interview, but what would most organizations do under these circumstances? This is assuming that he still seems like a strong candidate after the Skype interview, of course. The two main skills we’re looking for aren’t uncommon, but it’s kind of unusual to find both in the same person.

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      With someone from that far away, my first question would be work authorization. Not an issue if he’s an American citizen living abroad, but can your org sponsor him if he needs it? Are you set up for that?

      1. Kathleen_A*

        He is not an American citizen, and as far as I know, we’ve never had an employee who was not. However, the organization I work for has a for-profit sister company, and that company may very well have sponsored someone before (though I don’t think they’ve done it often). So assuming sponsorship isn’t a problem, what else would we need to think about?

        And I am still kind of hung up on the pure logistics of interviewing someone who lives that far away.

        2. School Inclusion Specialist*

          I’ve interviewed several international and out of state candidates without meeting them in person. I had to do a large amount of hiring in a very short amount of time for different seasonal programs.
          I didn’t have any different track record for success than the in person candidates. You might need to rely more on work products or references, but I wouldn’t get too hung up on the medium of communication.

        3. AcademiaNut*

          You can do all Skype interviews. The first interview should be the general screening one, then you could do one or more interviews after – either group or specific. It will be important to have a good, strong connection – you want to be able to have clear mutual video and not worry about pausing in the audio – and if you have multiple interviewers on the line, switch pictures as different people are talking. You can use the share screen function to show any documents.

          But I echo others and say to make sure that hiring non-nationals is a possibility – some jobs aren’t eligible for visa sponsorship, and some visas can take months to process. A friend recently moved to the US. He’s married to a citizen but they had been living abroad. The work visa, for an academic job that regularly hires foreigners, still took about four months to get, and that was significantly faster than the spousal visa option.

          You might ask him if he has authorization to work in the US if the visa is not an option, though.

    2. Llellayena*

      You could possibly conduct all interviews by Skype, depending on how well the first Skype interview goes. Alternately, you can ask in the first interview “We would normally like to interview candidates in person, but given the distance that might be difficult for both of us. Were you planning to travel to this area in the next month (or feasible length of your interview process)?” Since he’s got a woman he want to move to be with near you, it’s not unreasonable to assume he travels to see her sometimes.

      1. It's Business Time*

        Yes I would assume he may be already planning on travelling over and started to apply for jobs, so I would ask him that up front and if he makes it through the first interview then you can arrange based on his availability. I would ask him if he requires sponsorship at your end as well such as an E3 visa or if he was planning some other type of visa (if he was coming over on the K1 fiance visa or getting married before he comes over, then he would not be able to work until all of his paperwork would be processed and that can take 6 months to a year to complete.

    3. Way to the Dawn*

      When I was interviewing for positions in a city that was around 10-11 hours from me, I usually did a phone interview and then skype interviews. Although I did make it clear that I was willing to fly and be there in person if needed, nobody asked for that. I think it depends on the people hiring. Some are comfortable with hiring just on phone/skype and others want to see them in person.

    4. Midwest Writer*

      I interviewed for jobs in the Midwest and Pacific Northwest from Hawaii a few years ago. First contacts were either by Skype or phone, with follow-up emails and phone calls. I was offered three jobs, turned one down because of concerns about the job/employer, thought I was negotiating terms to accept the second when they hired someone else (!!!) and accepted the third and moved to across the ocean and half of the country sight unseen. My boss had hired a lot of people (and our job is literally talking to people and getting a good sense about who they are/are they telling the truth), so he felt good about me and I felt good about him. It worked out well for both of us and I stayed there for four years. So I think you can do pretty well with just several phone calls and emails. One of the jobs (the one I turned down), had me write a summary of a couple of articles for them as a writing test.
      My new job, which started last month, I actually did all of the interviewing over the phone and email, even though the office was only 25 miles from where I live, mostly because the interviewer (my new boss) was in the process of buying the newspaper where I now work and she wasn’t local, either. I could have come and walked through the office, but since I was mostly taking the job based on her and our future relationship, I didn’t. And so far, everything is working out quite well.
      It helps, I guess, that in my industry, we have pretty tangible work products — I can send newspaper clippings or links to stories to show my work. In your case, I would rely pretty heavily on references to help you make a decision. But I don’t think you have to meet someone in person to decide to hire them (and have it work out well).

  45. npoworker*

    Etiquette (??) question!!!!
    I live in a city where packages frequently get stolen from outside my apartment building (no doorman or mailroom). Because of this, I get packages delivered to work. However, I work in a tech “incubator” type space, with several companies and within the office and a manager of the “incubator.” The mail gets delivered to her office, and she carries it to our office’s mail area. I’ve started to feel guilty/crappy about her delivering packages there/sometimes to my desk (its just as close to her office as the mail area). Should I say something about her not worrying about bringing me my packages since they are personal? OR (and I really would love to avoid this) should I stop having my mail delivered here? (IDK where else I’d send it but if I’m being a huge asshole by delivering them to work, I will figure it out). THANKS!

    1. Teapot librarian*

      I would ask her if it bothers her and offer to pick the packages up from her area yourself. As for the option of having packages sent somewhere else, I know that (for example) in my neighborhood there is a business that will accept people’s packages for them. There might be something like that where you live. (I’d check Nextdoor, or if your neighborhood has a facebook group.)

      1. valentine*

        I assume she wants the stuff out of her area. Let her work her system. Don’t feel bad. If she’s otherwise direct and/or you work well together, let it be. You don’t want to end up with her wondering when you’ll get your stuff or you feeling you need to get your stuff three seconds after it’s delivered. You can solve this by shutting down the guilt.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      If it were me, I’d just talk to her and find out if it’s really OK. Of course, then you’d have to cross your fingers that it really is OK. It would be with me, but then I don’t know how many packages we’re talking about here.

      1. npoworker*

        Yeah, I mean however it shakes out, this seems to be the natural first step. It happened to be a good number (more than 5) in December because of the holidays, but typically it’s 1 a month if that. I think next time she brings me one I’ll say something like “thanks! I’m sure you’ve noticed I have gotten a number of packages here- it occurred to me that I should make sure that’s within our policy/okay with you that I have personal packages sent here. I’m happy to pick them up when they arrive, I dont want you to do extra work for me” or something like that.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yup, I think you can just talk to her. “I can come by and pick these up at your office if that makes it easier for you,” or something. And I doubt you’re the only person having packages delivered to the office, so in general I think you’re ok there.

    4. Rey*

      And if you haven’t already, I would check for any company policies about having personal packages delivered to work. My organization has a policy against it, so I always mention it to new employees when they get hired. Do you have a neighbor or friend who works from home or stay-at-home parents that you could have mail delivered to (or a gated community/building with doorman)?

      1. Windchime*

        My organization has a similar policy. I work in a big office building that has tons of different businesses in it, and it turns out that some of the Amazon delivery people were just dumping packages on the loading dock which is accessible by pretty much anyone who walks by. People were confused why their packages were marked as being delivered to the building but hadn’t shown up, when they were all sitting in a big pile on the loading dock.

        I’ve had good luck with Amazon lockers, but that obviously only works if you’re ordering from Amazon.

    5. Four lights*

      If you can’t have it delivered at work, I think most services have the option to pick up up at the store (UPS store) yourself. Or there are Amazon lockers. It stinks, but if you need to have it not stolen.

    6. Yvette*

      I would reach out to her and explain the situation and offer to pick them up whenever she wants you to, at the end of the day, when they arrive etc. Make it at her convenience at the expense of your convenience (not that you wouldn’t anyway). You could also offer to pick up the “official” package deliveries as well. Put in place a contingency for when you are not in the office, she could handle the official stuff as usual and maybe put your personal stuff on your desk or keep it in her area, whatever works for HER (again making it at her convenience at the expense of your convenience).
      It does not seem to appear as though she is annoyed or put out (at least from your letter) so I think if you express appreciation and make it as convenient for her as possible it should be fine. These are small packages right? No furniture or heavy electronics :)?
      Who knows, she may also be having stuff delivered to work for the same reasons.

      1. Anna Held*

        I agree that you should just ask. She may genuinely not mind — it gives her an excuse to stretch her legs, say. But if it’s often enough to bother you writer her a nice thank you note and add in a gift card.

    7. sammy_two*

      I think a few packages are fine. I do the same thing. If you’re really worried about it, could you get them delivered to your UPS store?

    8. Middle School Teacher*

      I get packages delivered to my post office. I go pick them up after the mailman leaves me a little sticky.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      Your company rents space from the incubator, right?

      The manager is not your manager. She is a vendor to your company. Passing out the mail to the tenants and their employees isnt a personal favor. It’s part of the service.

      Whether your packages are personal or work-related is completely none of her business. I don’t think you need to say anything.

    10. Chaordic One*

      A package or two every week (or even a day) isn’t excessive, but do thank her for doing this. Let her know you appreciate it and give her a nice present (like a gift card or something) at Christmas.

      As an example of someone who abused this, I once had a coworker who was getting married and her mother who lived out-of-town mailed all of the wedding reception decorations and dishes to our workplace. There must have been over 100 packages addressed to our coworker over a period of a couple of weeks. Our poor mail-clerk.

  46. Rebecca*

    To be filed under “when you let people go please have a manager clean up their work area” or “I accidentally read something I didn’t need or want to see”.

    So it’s a new year, and there is stuff in my office closet left over from several previous inhabitants, 2 of which were managers. I was looking through all the detritus for anything usable, like notepads or binders, and started a pile destined for the dumpster. Some of this stuff is years old and no longer applicable to anything current.

    I pulled out a notepad and noticed there was writing on the first few pages, but the rest was blank, so I took a quick glance at what was written to see what it was, exactly…and soon realized the pages were filled with handwritten notes about my coworkers, and most of them are still working here. There were names written in the upper right corner of the pages, then a lot of observations, and they’re not very kind. I didn’t read all the details, but from the very first page I got the gist of it. I’m not sure if I was included or not, and I have no desire to find out. Based on the handwriting, I know who this person was, and they’ve been gone for over a year and a half (left go vs left on their own).

    I’ve decided to tear off the handwritten notes and shred them. No one needs to see this. I don’t think it’s productive or useful in any way! And, I would be so upset to find things like this written about me! In a way, I’m glad I found it so I can take care of it without anyone else being exposed, and in another way, I’m not happy that something like this was just sitting in a box in the closet for anyone to stumble upon. Guaranteed this would cause a lot of hard feelings, even though the writer is long gone. She is working locally at another company, and coincidentally, with one of the people whose name appears at the top of one of the pages.

    I hope I’m doing the right thing here – any thoughts? Have any of you ever come across anything like this?

    1. npoworker*

      omg!!!! good for you for resisting, i’m a big fan of MYOB but I probably would have read the entire thing. Also really petty and confusing why anyone would do that!

    2. Rey*

      It sounds like you handled it perfectly. I can’t believe that your old coworker both wrote that stuff down in the first place, and then left it in their office. That’s crazy

      1. Rebecca*

        Worse yet, the person who wrote this was a team lead! And she was left go for performance issues, so she came into work one morning and was left go, so she had only enough time to gather personal things and not take care of things like this. I feel like, well, maybe you should sweep your own porch before criticizing other porches…so to speak.

        1. Bex*

          If she was let go for performance issues, then I would probably turn the notes over the HR just in case she decides to file a complaint down the road. It’s unlikely, but I’d a big believer in “cover your ass.”

    3. Sara without an H*

      Yeah, I think the shredder is the right place for this. At this point, there’s nothing constructive to be done with this kind of information, and it could prove embarrassing if it got around. Shred away!

    4. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      This was years ago at one of my first jobs. One person retired with the proverbial gold watch. While cleaning out his file cabinets a LOT of Playboy magazines were found. I can’t remember what happened to them, but I doubt they were thrown into the trash.

    5. erynlibrarian*

      I had a previous manager leave behind all kinds of sensitive documents when she retired. Bank statements, social security documents, etc. When I found it untouched in her desk drawer I marched it all right down to HR. She was a terrible manager and it just made me more resentful that she was careless enough to leave all that behind.

      1. Rebecca*

        I hear you – I had already found an entire drawer full of late mortgage related stuff (didn’t need to know that, gave the whole stack to my manager to deal with), another drawer full of fast food straws, napkins, sauce packets, etc. Just gross. I can see keeping a few things on hand, but not an entire drawer full!

      2. Lurk Til I Can’t Help Myself*

        Our practice had an office manager that was let go for a variety of hair-raising reasons. About six months after she left, I found her Sears credit card statement in one of my reference texts on a high shelf in my office. I found another portion of a different statement with unrelated, yet personal notes she’d written on it in a different book. It was so bizarre.

    7. Plain Jane*

      Yes, I’ve been through this as admin many times, and not just after an employee left. I have worked places where every piece of mail has to be opened, stamped, and scanned, so I’ve seen the kind of mail that people have sent to work so their spouse doesn’t see it.

    8. Mrs_helm*

      One of my primary roles at OldJob was email admin. The things you see when people ask for help archiving email!

      As for this specific thing…I once did something similar, when (in personal life) I was trying to help someone who was very frustrating to help. They couldn’t help being the way they were, and complaining to spouse just made him more stressed out. It did help to write it down somewhere.

      I can’t say that is what happened here. Given your description of how they left, maybe it was more like a collection of “other people who also suck – see I am not so bad”.

      Either way, at least these complaints have ended up where they belong without being aired.

    9. Mrs Mary Smiling*

      While cleaning out the DRAWERS AND DRAWERS* of crap left by a previous occupant, I found her notes about my interview the first time I applied to work at currentJob, specifically how she felt I didn’t have anything to offer in terms of technology knowledge! Got a huge chuckle out of this, since a) my current job title (at the same company she is no longer at) contains the words systems manager and b) she was constantly needing me to fix her computer, printer, excel, and internet problems when she was here.

      *no joke, when this person supervised, she would require that her reports print out all emails and documentation and would measure the thickness of their file folders with a ruler during evaluations to see if they were!

      1. Rebecca*

        LOL I’d totally take stuff from the recycling bin and put together huge thick folders for her to measure!

    10. Lilysparrow*

      At one job, I had to help my boss compile the paperwork to appeal a denial of health insurance coverage.

      For his wife’s stint in rehab.

      There were easily a thousand pages of case notes. I had to copy them all in duplicate, collate, match forms & cover letters, and guard the copy machine the whole time so nobody else would see them or pick them up.

      Oh, man. I never tried so hard *not* to read things in my life, and I still wound up knowing way, way more about that man’s life and marriage than I ever wanted to. Not to mention the fact that his in-laws were major clients of the firm, and the patient had extensive Family Of Origin issues.

      **Shudder**

    11. DCGirl*

      I once took over the desk of someone who had been fired for more than adequate cause. He had more issues than a magazine rack, but one of the reasons he was routinely insubordinate was that he found out I was making more than he was. The reason I was was that I had significantly more experience and an advanced degree, but, never mind, he was convinced that it because he was a member of a minority group and the company had a policy of discriminating against that group (although our manager, director, and senior vice president were of that same group…)

      Managers were supposed to be responsible for cleaning out the desks and packing up the belongings of fired employees, but my manager had totally checked out (she was eventually put on a PIP) and wasn’t doing most of her responsibilities.

      IT was due to show up and move my computer and phone in two hours, so I had to start packing it up. I found the restraining order filed against him by his ex-boyfriend as well as his responses, I found new underpants he’d purchased at lunch one day (still in their original manufacturer’s pricing, thank you Jesus), I found his gym clothes (ripe)…. The amount of personal stuff he had in his cube was astounding.

      But, I also found a notebook literally labeled “Enemies List” in which he cataloged the alleged transgressions of various coworkers but mostly me. I was the biggest enemy of all. I marched it all down to HR and told them I was very concerned about the Enemies List and that I expected building security to have this guy’s picture taped to their desk and be on the lookout for him.

      I routinely do web searches to see where he’s working and check his social media. I think there is definite mental illness, and he seems to be very bitter about previous employers. The latest on his twitter is a link to a fund raising site where he’s asking for money for living expenses because he can’t find a job. The reason he can’t find a job is, according to his site, when he applies for one “the cartel” finds out about it and sends the hiring manager pictures with his face photoshopped on the body of someone in a wheelchair. No one has contributed anything, and he’s very unhappy about that as well.

    12. Hamburke*

      We did an office clean up over the summer – I found a binder from one of my predicessors. Yeah, she was a much better admin assistant than me…but I do much more client work than she did so I guess it evens out!

  47. this probably won't work, i know*

    I’m being asked to write my own job description and it’s really bothering me. Here for some solid feedback if possible.

    I’ve worked in a hospitality management role for roughly the last 8 years. For lots of reasons, I left that job a few months ago. This coincided with my sister breaking off from the non-profit she was affiliated with to create her own with a co-founder. I have a lot of skills, she needed a lot of quick turnaround help and has always really encouraged me to grow professionally and use the skills I have from the last 8 years to build a more niche and stable profession.

    I was leaving anyway, so I said that’s I’d be happy to help as basically an independent contractor in the short term. I’ve done a lot of development stuff in the last 2 months.

    Flash forward to now. I’ve said I wasn’t comfortable doing some things as an IC, including some HR and timekeeping things for their fiscal sponsor. Partly this is because I’m not employed by the fiscal sponsor, have no log-in to their HR system, have no authorization to be doing some of this stuff. I’m happy to assist but I’m not ok taking that on by myself. This and several other things led to what read to me as, “ok, you’re not comfortable with that? Then write your own job description. You can’t do anything you’re working on (that people external to the org and within the org have asked me to work on) until you write your own job description. And oh, include what your salary will be two. Since you’re not happy doing some of this stuff, you need to tell us what you’ll be happy doing.”

    …… is this fair? She and her co-founder know where I’m coming from. They know that I have no experience with non-profits, as well as no idea what their plan is for this rapidly expanding non-profit. They also have other people that they 100% want to employ when they can fund them who have skills that kind of overlap with mine.

    Some problems:
    I have no idea what constitutes a full time job for their organization. I’m interested in trying grant writing – is that full time? I’m really interested in more data, database management, etc, but literally I have no idea what that entails day to day, week to week, in terms of time.

    I also realistically have still never seen a functional day in their operations. They start tomorrow. This is work that they’ve been doing pretty much in the exact way they’ll be doing it with the exact staff that they took from old org. They know very well what this place needs to run. This seems like a punitive guessing game and I don’t like it.

    There’s also a nepotism issue. The fiscal sponsor has rules about this that may not apply to this org, but that has been repeatedly not clarified for me. For that reason, I have no idea who I could actually report to and whether I can actually be employed through that fiscal sponsor.

    One thing I don’t want is to be afraid to take on new challenges and work in situations that I’m not used to. That’s an honest personal problem that I’d like to tackle head on. That said, I have reservations that I feeeeel like might exist outside that discomfort. Thoughts?

    2. Starting on the left foot is right*

      ok. so you are working at a start up. Even if they are using the procedures/work methods from their old job – it will still be completely different for the workers, in that start ups usually have barebones staffing. So you may need to have 27 skills that you use every day. But in six months, workload changes, and now 1/3 of your stuff is overlapped by someone else’s job, and you really need to focus on 10 things, and a new hire is made to cover the remaining 8 things.

      So the job description you are writing now will need to be tweaked a lot in the coming months.

      1. Chatty Katy*

        Create a list of all the things you’ve done as an IC that you like doing.
        Create a list of all the things you’ve done as an IC that are important to the company
        Create a list of all the things that you’ve done that you can continue doing at a higher level (ie database management rather than data input)
        Create a list of all the areas you’d like to gain more experience in.
        Think about the time needed to do these tasks on a daily/weekly/monthly/yearly level. (ie create a database of customers, daily input of new customer info, weekly mailings for customers, create quarterly reports, create yearly reports on customer interactions)

        Look for ‘groups’ of activities – you may end up creating 2-3 job descriptions. Some tasks may fall into ‘future stretch assignments’ – and not be included in your job description. Some tasks may be too entry level and need to be assigned to a reportee.

    3. MsM*

      “I didn’t say I wouldn’t be willing to do those tasks; just that I’m not comfortable taking them on without a better understanding of how the relationship with the fiscal sponsor works and what their expectations are surrounding independent contractors. Can you either clarify that for me, or put me in touch with whoever would know?”

    4. Mrs_helm*

      look at it from their point of view. they need to know what they can assign to you – so they know who else they need to hire or what needs to be assigned to someone else. If you are afraid to be too narrow down then maybe break it up into categories. Give them a list of things you definitely know you want to do, a list of things you’re willing to do, and maybe a list of things you would do if you got x (training, permission from sponsor, only as an assistant to someone more qualified).

    5. Marthooh*

      Never mind fair, it doesn’t seem useful. Give your sister a list of the kinds of things you as an IC shouldn’t do, and ask her to consult you (or at least have a good hard think) before she assigns you new tasks. It sounds like she was brushing off your legitimate concerns, which isn’t great, but maybe that can be attributed to startup fever.

    6. CM*

      It’s possible that they’re not really asking for a job description so much as a contract outlining what services you will provide in exchange for money. The latter thing is totally normal for a contractor, though maybe they’re asking for it the wrong way.

      It’s also possible that, since you’re doing the job temporarily, they want to try to work out what they would need from a full time employee when they hire one. That’s not a totally normal thing for a contractor to figure out, but you could probably advise them if you wanted to.

      But, FWIW, I would start by treating it as a request to explain which services you can provide in exchange for money.

  48. Anon anony*

    The people that I work with are snarky. One day I had a hair in my mouth, but my phone was ringing, so I’m frantically trying to remove the hair and wipe my mouth, which was then getting stuck with my lip gloss. (I was having issues! This was done at my desk- I face a wall.)
    Well, this must have been quite a site because I turned and a coworker was standing there watching me, trying to figure out what was going on. Now, he didn’t ask me, nor did I say anything, but I felt embarrassed… I’m sure he discussed it with the snarky crowd, but I don’t care. I was at my own desk
    Does anyone have any similar stories?

    1. this probably won't work, i know*

      I can get kind of fumbly when stressed but my experience with coworkers has mostly been that it’s a funny but possibly endearing moment. Hopefully that’s what was happening there, but it sounds like you have reason to believe that’s not the dynamic. I’m sorry if so – no one likes to be made to feel ridiculous.

    2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      One time, thinking I was alone in a back office, I had my hand cupping a breast while trying to adjust my bra. A co-worker walked in.

    3. Bluebell*

      Our team at work is the opposite – I promise everyone that I will not let them go into a meeting with spinach in their teeth. We don’t compulsively groom each other, but I’ve had lint and hair taken off a jacket or dress. And it’s all done in a very nice way.

    4. Not a cat*

      I was chatting with one of my direct reports and I farted, loud enough that you couldn’t NOT hear it. I walked away, but on the return back about a minute later he was huddled with some others laughing. I didn’t mind, I fart, I am human :)

  49. Singin in the Rain*

    I think my work place might be making me sick. I started in August, and am generally pretty healthy. I have no known allergies. But I noticed I started sneezing more at work and getting congested. When I got home the symptoms would fade away.

    I went on a trip in November and caught a virus while I was there. It took me almost a month to recover, and eventually culminated into a sinus infection on the right side of my face. I’ve never had a sinus infection before! This was right before Christmas, which I worked through. But it cleared up Christmas week and by that weekend, I was all better. And then this past Wednesday, BAM – my sinuses are all clogged up again.

    I’ve been thinking about it, and I think it’s my colleagues’ space heaters. We have an open plan desk situation, and the ladies on either side of me use space heaters on full blast all day. Plus, they’ve asked the building to turn the heat up to max all day because they get cold easily. The sinus infection started the last day everyone was here and went away during the Christmas/New Year stretch where I was the only person in the office and no space heaters were on. I started getting congested on Wednesday afternoon / evening – the day everyone was back in the office and the space heaters came back on. I’ve heard space heaters can dry up the air, and on top of that, I now live in a very arid state whereras I grew up and spent most of my life in a very humid state, so my theory is that my body may not be adjusting well to the dryness of the air, which may be exacerbated by the space heaters.

    It’s circumstantial evidence, I know. I could just be unlucky and have caught another cold. But I think I’m going to get a desktop cool mist humidifier and see if that helps. I have a bedside humidifier and a larger humidifier for the rest of my apartment, and I feel that they do help relieve my congestion. Any other suggestions?

      1. valentine*

        Why are two people getting to choose the climate? Ask to move, even temporarily, even if it’s just switching so those two can sit next to each other, but preferably to a cooler space. Maybe there is someone who would love to sit in heater central.

    2. LCL*

      Generally space heaters are a symptom, not a cause of sinus trouble. They can accumulate dust, which can be easily vacuumed off. A lot of space heater use is often an indication of problems with the building’s HVAC. Ask your maintenance person these questions:
      What kind of heat does our building have? Air conditioning?
      Does it have ducts? If yes, how often are they cleaned?
      How often is the equipment serviced?

    4. New Job So Much Better*

      Muccinex (sp?) a few times each week, and drink lots of water. Also start increasing your vitamin D-3. Read up on at the Dr. Mercola website–it works as an anti-viral and has really helped me. Hope you feel better!

    5. coffee addict*

      Yeah, sinus issues can unfortunately happen when there are environmental changes like that. If it’s really bothering you, I highly recommend taking Aleve D when things get bad. I live in a very humid area and get terrible sinus issues when I visit a dry climate and Aleve D is the only medication I’ve taken that helps my sinuses.

    6. Hooray College Football*

      I highly recommend sinus rinsing. Get the Neilmed sinus rinse kit and a bottle of distilled water. I also add 10-15 ml of Alkalol to my rinse, because that helps break up the mucus. I do it twice a day. I have chronic sinus issues (non-allergic, believe me, I’ve had every test). This is the only thing that helps keep me well. I used to get sinus infections 8-10 times a year, but the sinus rinses have decreased that dramatically.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Another vote for sinus rinsing. And if you’re not comfortable using a neti pot, just grab one of those saline nose spray. A couple of squirts morning and evening will do wonders.

      3. leukothea*

        Always use sterilized water, not tap water! Passing this along as I have used tap water in the past, but there was a recent horrifying case where that went horribly wrong.

    7. Em*

      Contact HR or facilities and ask them to do a mold test. Ask around oof other employees have had the same problems. Had a friend whose building maintenance discovered moldy drywall / carpet after approached by a group of coworkers to do mold testing. Worth checking! The space heaters might be circulating it more!

    8. Ama*

      I have chronic sinus issues, and when the heaters came on in my apartment this year I was miserable for two weeks until I bought a small cool mist humidifier (last year I used a steam humidifier but it made the room too hot for my significant other).

      I also use the Ayr line of saline products when traveling — they have a saline gel you can put inside each nostril (I use this in hotel rooms at night) and I also find that squirting their nasal saline up each nostril before I leave the house in the morning helps ward off symptoms at work. (I think other nasal saline brands are probably fine, Ayr is the only brand I’ve seen that also has the gel option.)

  50. jack*

    I’m curious what some of you might have done in this situation, this was awhile ago.

    I was getting calls from an unknown number at work, and missed them. Eventually they left a voicemail looking for “Mary” and asking me to call back. I googled the number and the company name on the caller ID and found out they were a collection agency. My name is Mary, and I knew I didn’t have anything in collections. I ignored the calls, I wasn’t interested in helping a collection agency get in touch with any friends or family.

    I answered one time when I wasn’t paying attention to the caller ID and found out that they were actually looking for Mary W, one of my employees. I told them she was unavailable, and eventually stopped getting calls.

    I didn’t tell Mary W, but should I have? Like I said, I didn’t have any interest in helping them contact her, but should she have known they were calling into work?

    1. this probably won't work, i know*

      I think so, yes. Then ask her how she’d like you to direct the call in the future. I had one employee that would routinely take those calls and say what, I’m not exactly sure. But I don’t see harm in mentioning it. What makes you hesitate to mention it?

      1. jack*

        I didn’t want to embarrass her I think. Also this is in a manufacturing setting, and she was a floor worker. So she didn’t have an office or dedicated phone aka nowhere private to take a call.

        1. this probably won't work, i know*

          That makes sense. In that case my approach might be to take the phone number and name, write it down and give to her. No speculation about who it was unless she asks, no judgement or concern or discomfort if you can muster it, just, “Got a call from someone named Bill asking you to call back at this number.” She’ll either know right away that it’s a bill collector or maybe call back and figure that out.

          My personal feeling there is that I’d want to know if bill collectors were calling my job. Handling it very vaguely and disinterestedly might allow you to let her know and save face. I also don’t have anything in collections though so maybe other people have better advice here?

          1. valentine*

            I would’ve told her it’s a bill collector, so they don’t trap her number if she calls. Whenever this comes up, I think commenters say they’re not meant to call workplaces, so you can tell them not to call again.

    2. Quiet Observer*

      I got a call like that for one of my staff who works in another office. Took the agency’s info and then I emailed the staff playing stupid. Just said, “Hey Staff, Mr. Smith from this number called looking for you.” I try to stay out of my staff’s personal business. That was over a year ago and haven’t had another call since. Then again, I did notice her car got downsized awhile back…

      1. Chaordic One*

        This is what I did when I worked in H.R. Passed the information along to the staff member without giving any info to the caller.

        At one point we had a letter asking for child support from a female employee. It turned out that in the days before E-Verify the employee had given us an incorrect Social Security Number. The person whose SSN she had given was behind in his child support and the notice got sent to us for our employee.

  51. Echo*

    Managers who are more task/information oriented people, do how do you set up professional boundaries with relationship-oriented managees who ask after your well-being? I’m not necessarily talking about intensive personal questions, but even just casual things like “I hope your day isn’t too busy/stressful!” or “hopefully you don’t have to stay at work too late this week!” My managees so far have all been new to the professional world, but it feels completely wrong to respond to a casual friendly comment with a whole spiel about how my personal life, stress level, and workload are not appropriate for me to discuss as a manager.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      My goodness, I’d try not to overthink this. You can generally respond kindly in less than five words and move along. “Doing fine, thanks!” “Thank you, you too!”

    2. NotReallyKarenWalker*

      .. But that’s exactly the sort of casual chitchat that makes employees feel like they are a human, working with other humans. If I was friendly to my manager in that way and she shut me down, it would definitely come across as cold and make me flinch a little bit. Why on earth would you want to discourage politely warm comments? I’d understand if they asked for a detailed agenda or asked how your love-life was going, but an offhand, “Hope your day isn’t too stressful!”?

      1. Liet-Kinda*

        Exactly. It’s politely warm, brief professional relationship maintenance between humans who work for each other, without which it’s just too obvious we work in a brutal late capitalist labor market that cares only for the tasks we can accomplish and the information we can provide. Echo trying to excuse themself from it because they think they’re super task oriented is going to steer them very wrong. Invest some minimal energy in pleasantries, or they will hate you and be baffled by you.

      2. Echo*

        I think I probably phrased this question a little poorly (which is more evidence that communication may not be my forte)! I guess what I want to communicate is that I don’t want my managees to feel like they need to WORRY about me.

        2. NotReallyKarenWalker*

          Ahh, in that case, it makes a lot more sense! I think it would be good for you to remind yourself that these types of questions are usually just surface-level pleasantries and don’t really indicate true concern, but rather a general, shared acknowledgement of longer hours or heavy workloads. Not that they don’t care, but think of it as idle chit-chat along the lines of “how about that Yankee game” or “Nice weather we’re having!”. Once you frame it like that in your mind, I think you’ll be able to relax about it.

        3. School Inclusion Specialist*

          I’d just be factual. “Working late is the nature of the job right now, but I am looking forward to doing X this weekend”
          Also, if you know there is a busy time ahead, preempt it with something like “Its a busy period right now, so I will likely be working more often with my door closed [or whatever]. I look forward to our conversations during our check-ins. For the time being, I’d prefer non-urgent questions to be via email so that I can have uninterrupted work times.” I’m always upfront with the people that I manage about how best to communicate and when. I really appreciate my current boss is very clear that he hate email, but does regular walk throughs to check-in.

          Also, I’m curious why you think they would worry about you–are you conveying a feeling of being overstressed? Or are you worried that they think there is cause for concern just for how much you work?

        4. Liet-Kinda*

          You don’t need to communicate that, because they aren’t. It’s standard-issue workplace small talk, bantering with overworked person flavor.

    3. Observer*

      Why would you even consider doing that? They are not expecting a whole rundown of your schedule, stress levels or whatever. All you need are some simple basic responses. Like “I hope your day isn’t too busy/stressful!” gets “We’re managing!” or a (humorous) “That’s what they pay me the big bucks for.” If they say “hopefully you don’t have to stay at work too late this week!” you can respond “I hope so too.” or “It comes with the territory.”

      These are casual friendly comments that should be responded to in kind – casual and friendly, without a lot of information.

    4. Liet-Kinda*

      You’re overthinking this. This has very little to do with relationship orientation or whatever, and even if you’re task oriented, you can participate in small talk enough to lubricate work interactions. It’s pleasantries. Respond with pleasantries.

      “Oh, I’m hanging in there!”

      “Nah, heading out at the stroke of 5! Happy hour waits for noone!”

      “Just hoping it dies down next week!”

      “Hey, I got my coffee, I’m good!”

    5. Yvette*

      This is like when people say “Hi, how are you doing?” It is almost rhetorical, not that you shouldn’t answer but it should be a brief “Not too bad, and you?” It is a pleasantry. You respond to a casual comment with a casual reply. You are correct in that there is no need for an in-depth litany of all your current problems and complaints.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Honestly, half the time when someone says “How are you?” to me in passing, I respond with “How’s it going?” That’s really not a question!

  52. KR*

    New year new me, right? Trying so hard to be more responsive, be more on top of things, and to do the things I say I’m going to do. My manager wrote me a really nice email saying that he really appreciates me and what I’m doing for our Dept which makes me really happy and want to work harder and impress him even more, but also makes me anxious because I’m scared he will find out I’m a big phony any day now.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      In what way are you a phony? He complimented you for doing a good job, and if you are in fact doing a good job, there’s nothing phony at all. That you have to work at an accomplishment doesn’t make it any less of an accomplishment.

    2. Temperance*

      Look up “imposter syndrome” and be a little nicer to yourself. It’s the 3rd workday of the year.

      1. KR*

        Thank you Temperance. You’re right that it’s imposter syndrome. You guys are making me feel much better

  53. Miss Wels*

    Fergus used to be my supervisor (not manager), and our grandboss decided to reassign me to a different team, which was a decision I was happy about but had no control over. When Fergus found out, he came over to my cubicle angrily and yelled at me, accusing me of saying bad things about him to our grandboss. He also came over while I was with another colleague at her desk and started swearing about how he didn’t want to work with our department anymore. Since then, he has been talked to and has not lost his temper, however, even though he is no longer my supervisor, I still have to work closely with him on a project. It is very difficult for me to interact with him, because not only did I feel hurt and disrespected, but I have PTSD from experiencing domestic violence at a young age, I am a petite woman, and he is a large man, so him yelling at me when I did nothing wrong frightened me much more than it would a normal person. I experience severe anxiety every time I see him physically or see an email from him in my inbox. My new supervisor and grandboss are both aware of this, don’t blame me for how I feel, and my supervisor has given me the option of being off the project completely once we fill a vacant position, but that would mean that I would only be doing admin work, which would both hurt my career growth and make my job much less interesting. Is this situation in any way salvageable, or do I need to start looking for a new job? I do like my job, other than the issues with Fergus.

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      If the only way for you to avoid Fergus is to get a new job… you might have to do that. This isn’t a case of “other than a minor issue X, my job is great”. It’s someone who came up to you, triggered your PTSD, and is still around, and still is in contact with you about work issues. Are there really no other projects that are away from Fergus?

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. This should be Fergus’s problem to deal with and instead it’s yours.

      1. Miss Wels*

        There are other projects, but this project is a core part of my job duties and the reason that I was hired.

    2. Sara without an H*

      OK, first the easy parts: 1) document every interaction in which Fergus behaves unprofessionally; 2) review the AAM archives on resumes and cover letters; 3) work on expanding your own network. You may or may not want to move on from this position, but you should be prepared to do so. (Actually, I think everybody should have an up-t0-date resume at all times, but that’s just me.)

      Hard part: If both your supervisor and your grandboss know about this, why aren’t they managing Fergus??? He’s out of line and unprofessional and someone needs to come down on him hard.

      1. Miss Wels*

        Fergus has been warned about his behavior, but we have a powerful union, so employees have to be warned about the same behavior a certain number of times before disciplinary action can be taken. There are definite pros and cons to this system.

        1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

          What are *your* rights in the system? Fergus gets his, fine, but you should also have some options.

    3. Temperance*

      Have you reported this to HIS supervisor? It doesn’t seem okay that he gets to scream at you like that.

      What has your boss / grandboss specifically said to you when you bring up the abuse from Fergus? That is what this is, abuse. He’s screaming at you. It doesn’t matter that he’s not your boss. Right now, you have the option of being continually abused or being demoted to secretarial work, which is really not a choice at all.

      1. Miss Wels*

        Yes, the thing was during this time period Fergus has a new boss, so his old boss knew and was angry about it but couldn’t do much since it was in her last days of being his boss. My grandboss let me know that he supports me and that he wouldn’t tolerate that kind of behavior, but we have a powerful union, so employees have to be warned about the same behavior a certain number of times before disciplinary action can be taken.

    4. WellRed*

      Does Fergus do this regularly or was it one time? I am unclear from what you wrote. It shouldn’t have happened at all mind you, but if he’s been talked to and hasn’t done it again, not sure what else can be done.

      1. Miss Wels*

        This was a one time thing for me, but he has done this to other people. It doesn’t help that we get new managers about as often as I change my socks.

        1. valentine*

          I’m assuming the union means no one will remove Fergus from the project. Can you minimize the impact at all? Can you not meet with him and have everything done via email? I don’t suppose anyone can sanitize his emails, act as a mediator so you don’t have to see Fergus’s name.

          Did no one speak to him when he did it to other people or does the union allow for x instances of behavior toward separate targets? Maybe this is something you can push on.

        2. Chatty Katy*

          Did anyone ask Fergus to apologize to you? And do so in a way that acknowledged the wrong he committed (assuming you’d speak badly of him, shouting at you, blaming you, assuming your reassignment was a negative reflection on his work performance) ?
          Or is he acting as if it never happened, and if it did, it was because he was ‘tricked’by circumstances and therefore he is blameless and righteous.

          1. CM*

            I’m wondering about this, too, and frustrated by the idea that the OP would be the one who has to leave the project when Fergus is the one who did something wrong.

            I second the suggestion to try to work over email with him. If it helps, the OP could also request to have another person in the room when she has to talk to Fergus.

            I wouldn’t suggest asking for this, because it can backfire, but a truly supportive manager should also be considering taking the meetings with Fergus himself/herself for the time being.

    5. Friday afternoon fever*

      It’s midmorning Sunday so you might not see this, but want to say a few things just in case. I also have PTSD from experiences at a young age, and a heightened startle reflex. Working with Fergus is something I also would find extremely distressing.

      It’s great that your manangers know about your history and are (ostensibly) supportive, however Fergus’ behavior is absolutely unacceptable no matter what. If it’s possible (and I’m sorry the onus appears to be on you), next time Fergus pulls anything like this, can you call it out? I don’t know if I would be able to stand up in the moment (historically, not) but you would be within your right to say something like “please don’t speak to me like that.” Alison has provided some good scripts before.

      I agree that you shouldn’t have to avoid him at the expense of career opportunities …. or your …. core job duties?! Can they take Fergus off the project instead?

      Are you seeing a therapist and could they help you workshop a couple ways to respond to Fergus and to cope with his presence? If you’re not seeing a therapist, I personally have made a ton of progress seeing one.

      Also, agree with above, you must have a union rep who can advocate for you. Has anyone clearly told Fergus “this is unacceptable behavior and we expect you not to treat people like this?” Would you be more comfortable working with him going forward if that expectation is set?

      If you decide to look for another job, I hope you think of it not as ‘my PTSD made me unable to stay’ but ‘my coworker was abusive and my managers did nothing, so I was unable to stay.’ You can start looking at what’s out there and thinking about where you’d want to move on to without starting s full blown search.

  54. MikeeBeth*

    My husband works at a franchise of a fast-casual restaurant. He’s been wanting to ask for a raise for a while now, but his store is in a transition period. His last operator just left and the store is being run by an operator from corporate until they find a new permanent operator. He does a lot for the store. He’s in charge of the kitchen (doesn’t have any hiring/firing power, basically in charge of quality control and making sure everything is running smoothly) and does cleaning duties and ordering the food shipment outside of his regular schedule. The other managers all think he deserves a raise, and actually want to make him a true manager (where he’ll be in charge of running shifts, counting money, etc). Where he’s just gotten a new operator, should he go ahead and ask for a raise now, or wait until either he has a little more track record with this particular manager or until they get a permanent operator? It may be several months before they get a permanent operator.

    1. AliceW*

      I say, always feel free to ask for a raise and provide the reasons why you think it is warranted. The worst they can say is “no”.

    2. Chatty Katy*

      Ask for a raise now & to be made a manager now. They can’t afford to lose him. But even if they respond with “No, that’s something only the new operator can approve” — he hasn’t lost anything and the ask to corporate will just be practice for asking the new operator. (and in having to consider him, makes him known to corporate)

  55. I still love updates*

    What was your favorite update from this past month of where are they now updates?

    What update are you still wanting/waiting for?

    Alison, you did a great job of posting all the ones you got. It was a lot this year. I hope you were able to get some well deserved rest in December :)

    1. Yvette*

      I totally agree about appreciating all the updates and the work involved.

      As far as ones that I would love to hear about:
      The Intern who framed the coworker for fraud. It involved a stolen jacket, the police and some Amazon orders.

      Or how about the one where the abused coworker faked fraud blaming someone else in order to get the police there for her to talk to?

    2. Mimmy*

      My favorite was the manager who wanted to accommodate a Deaf job applicant. Per the update: Even though this person didn’t get the job, the manager still wanted to learn all she could about being inclusive and is even reaching out to schools to recruit other Deaf job applicants.

  56. Snow Drift*

    An outer-tier connection of mine on LinkedIn just published a long, flowery, groveling post about how his VERY well-known tech employer gave him the “privilege” and “gift” of 12 weeks paternity leave. It’s taking everything I have not to comment with Orwellian quotes. That’s bare minimum of tolerable, dude. It’s not a gold pony.

    I know U.S. benefits/vacay discussions often cascade into a flurry of aghast European comments, but still. Maybe if we stop asking like basic decency is worth bowing and scraping, we could start changing the narrative.

    2. Overeducated*

      I don’t know…given how far above the norm that is compared to most American employers, it kinda sounds better than a gold pony to me. And men talking about actuallt using it instead of going back to work ASAP would help normalize that choice too.

    3. LCL*

      Let him grovel and kiss a.. If more people understood what women have been going through re childcare issues, and how it is just as bad for men, maybe that will increase the pressure to make changes. When I step away from the majority white collar world of Ask a Manager, I read accounts of people that have 1-2 weeks of parental leave. Or none. Your connection has basically won the jackpot, compared to other people.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        My BIL had EXACTLY the weekend off. Niece was born Friday. He had Saturday and Sunday off. He went to work Monday. His company is very small and does not qualify for FMLA. He had burned through his vacation (5 days), and PTO (2 days) since my sister had a rough pregnancy.

        I drove my sister and niece back from the hospital.

        My sister 6 weeks off maternity leave (no pay), because she had a C section and the OB/GYN wouldn’t clear her for work before then.

        I’d let your friend crow. Outside of upper tier AAM crowd, I know no one in real life who could easily get 12 weeks paid paternity leave. It’s usually cobbled together vacation time, FMLA, and PTO.

        The men I know take about 5 days paternity leave, and spin it as “vacation time”, even when it is paid leave. Guys get judged hard in my area for taking leave.

        So the fact this person is actually getting 12 weeks (hopefully paid) and said *paternity leave* get a thumbs up for me.

        It is like winning the Lotto.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I saw this on LinkedIn, too, but I had a different take. IDK, I guess as someone who had 7 weeks paid time off for my son, 12 weeks for a non-birthing parent doesn’t seem like the “bare minimum” to me. If a married couple could both get 12 paid weeks off, that would be pretty awesome — 24 weeks to cover care for a newborn would be huge. I’m more concerned about people working under the policies I had 14 years ago and trying to find and pay for a babysitter for a kid who isn’t even 2 months old yet. Or people working jobs with none of these benefits at all. Why get mad at the companies who are the most progressive on these matters in the country?

      1. Snow Drift*

        Not mad at the company, to be clear. Mad at the tone of the article that was so submissive and subservient. I feel like we can be thankful and acknowledge the benefits we appreciate, but without coming across like we’re kissing rings.

        If it had been written in a style that said, in effect, “My company is an industry leader in providing this. Employees appreciate work-life balance, and I’m glad to have the chance to use it for my baby girl.” I would have been upvoting all over the place.

  57. Pam Beesly*

    My department shares a floor of cubicles with another department. When an employee in the other department first started working here a year ago, he kept an air freshener on his desk. I am highly sensitive to air fresheners: my eyes get dry and scratchy, while my throat closes up. Because it was affecting my work (I deal with customers on the phone and I was losing my voice), I approached him and asked him to stop using it, as I was allergic. He agreed and I thought that was the end of it. He just came back from a two-week vacation and has started using one again. His cubicle is directly across from mine. Any ideas on what to do?

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Remind him! It’s been a while and he may just have forgotten, and then maybe he got an air freshner as a gift and forgot why he didn’t bring it to work.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I’m dealing with this re: a smoker who sits a foot away from me. I kindly asked him when he started if he could be careful to change coats after smoking (he goes out five times a day to light up) and do whatever he can to mitigate the odor, which gives me headaches. He started out kindly agreeing. A month later I’m now choking on fumes. I think you just need to politely go back and ask again as people are assuming it’s fine if you’re not complaining.

    3. ContentWrangler*

      Since he was agreeable when you asked a year ago, I would assume he just forgot. I would just ask politely like you did last time. If for some reason, he pushes back and keeps using it, then bring it up with your manager.

    4. MeganTea*

      Whether or not he forgot, I would approach it as if *of course* he forgot (because he’s human and it happens) and *of course* he’ll stop using it once you remind him — using the “warm tone” Allison always recommends. Maybe something like, “Hey Dwight, you’ve probably forgotten since it’s been so long, but I’m allergic to air fresheners. Could you please stop using yours? It makes my eyes itch and affects my breathing. Thanks!”

  58. Washi*

    Excel geniuses! I’m working on a large spreadsheet that will be accessed by all my coworkers, and I know from experience that they struggle with the filter tool. Is there something even easier to filter out different categories of information? Something like the slicer tool?

    1. Teapot librarian*

      Clearly I’m not an excel genius since I don’t know what the slicer tool is :-) but one idea I have–though I don’t know if it’s practical–would be to make individual sheets within the workbook that pull the data from the full spreadsheet, but are “pre-filtered” for the common uses that your coworkers will need. Of course, this may not work if your coworkers have ever-changing needs.

    2. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      What are they filtering and what are they looking at? If it’s anything that can be in a pivot table, you can put in a really big slicer and they can just click on the items they want.

      Otherwise, you may have to do macros. Make a drop down with the items, have a button that filters the table.

      Or, well, teach them to filter… (I know, I know.)

      1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

        Oh and there’s also Filter In Place but I haven’t touched that since Office 2007, so IDK what that looks like these days. It was always a pain in the neck.

      2. Washi*

        No, it’s not really pivot table friendly – kind of like a spreadsheet of events where sometimes you want to see all the events in January and sometimes you want to see all the dances, etc. I will check out Filter in Place (haven’t heard of that one) and think about macros!

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Another thought is that you may need to brainstorm how they need to see the data and create a handful of pivot tables so they can just look and never have to do any manipulation. Maybe one summary is by month, one by event type, one by event coordinator in charge, etc.

          1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

            Oh yeah. And then they can double-click on the pivot to get Excel to spit out all the rows for that in a new tab.

        2. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

          If it’s so custom that sometimes they want this, sometimes they want that, but they want all of that preprogammed so they don’t have to click a button… I feel for you. A lot. Been there, swore never again, and then did it again. (The few people I could convince to actually use the filter button would tell me it’s so easy and they didn’t realize. I banged my head on things a lot. They want 50 hours of work for me so they don’t have to spend 5 seconds clicking on a dat efilter.)

          I think it’s actually called Advanced Filtering? It’s been way too long. We used it on a giant table that we were eventually able to get rid of.

    3. FD*

      So, if I’m understanding correctly, you use a table that already has filters, but they have trouble using filters.

      Can you give us an example of what you’d want to be able to do?

      My instinct is you’re likely looking at a VBA-based solution, TBH.

      1. Washi*

        …yep. The filter tool is built for exactly this thing, but it is apparently too hard. (I have some coworkers who I have taught over and over to copy/paste and how to make a new tab in a workbook sooo yeah.)

        1. FD*

          Yeah, I feel your pain. But can you give an example of what you envison this tool doing? It’s tough to give suggestions without a clear end-goal in mind.

          1. Washi*

            Sorry, thought you would see my reply above! Basically I’m looking for something that does exactly what filters do, but where you just click buttons like the slicer. So for example, if you have a spreadsheet with lots of different events, you could click to see just the events in a certain month, or just dances, or just free events. There’s a lot of text paragraphs in the spreadsheet, so it’s not really conducive to a pivot table. (I think?)

            2. Windchime*

              I would probably record a macro for each of the different types of filtering and then assign each macro to a button. If you’re good at writing VBA, then you could do it that way but I find it easiest to start by recording a macro and then tweaking if necessary. That way, people could click the “dance” button and the dance filtering macro would run.

              It seems silly that they won’t just learn to use the filters, though.

              1. FD*

                Yeah, that’s sort of what I was thinking, but depending on how many possible ways there are to filter / if they can change, that could get ridiculously tedious.

        2. Gumby*

          But… I mean, the drop down is already there and you just check or uncheck boxes. How much easier do they want things?!?!?!?!

          Get new co-workers. :)

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Are they just reading/reviewing the data or updating cells applicable to them?

      We actually have a big cost report workbook that is used similarly. Our analyst does a data dump from SAP, which is referenced in and hidden from us, and then there are 5 sheets for us to use. Most of them use filters, but it has evolved over 5+ years and the current format is fairly easy to use. There are a lot of intermediate steps between the raw data and what we see. There are lookup tables and not all data is even brought into the format we see. One of the sheets is a pivot table, but it shows limited data. It wouldn’t work well on the other sheets, which have ~20 columns of data.

      We have some other reports that have been converted to Tableau, and those are nice, too.

      All these reports are read-only. If you need people to enter data, that is a different can of worms.

      1. Blarg*

        I was also going to suggest tableau. Costs money but it does all the things you mentioned AND it prevents people from messing up your data accidentally. You can continuously update the tableau file as you update the excel spreadsheet. End users can modify the display how they want within the parameters you set. I kind of love it.

  59. supplies*

    I need to monitor our supplies better/more closely…how do you do it? I don’t really want to lock the supply closet but we’re using boxes and boxes of pens and pencils very 3 months, scissors, etc. (and I check the closet so they are actually gone but I probably write the most in my dept and don’t use a full pen in that period). Sometimes I think it’s a small thing and good for morale in a sense (staff is pretty demoralized) but we’re in a budget crunch and I have to justify every little thing at this point. How to let staff know without lowering moral?

    1. Rey*

      It sounds like people are taking supplies from the closet to hoard at their desks instead. If staff is already demoralized, I don’t think pens, pencils, and scissors are going to make a huge difference. If locking the supply closet is the best way to stay in budget, then that’s what you’ve got to do. Depending on how much of a burden it would be on you, you could email that, “We’ve decided to lock the supply closet, so if you send me an email when you need something, I’ll make sure it gets delivered to your desk by the end of the day.” Hopefully that adds enough of a personal touch that they won’t get hung up on it being locked.

    2. Observer*

      What makes you think that people are actually using more pens and pencils than they need to? That’s the first thing you need to figure out. How many people do you have in your office? What are they using pens and pencils for? Are people working with clients / customers who have to fill in paper work?

      These are the kinds of questions that can help you figure out what your usage should look like.

    3. WellRed*

      If your company starts monitoring pens and pencils when folks are already demoralized, be prepared for an employee exodus. And frankly, it won’t help your budget enough to be worthwhile. One practical suggestion, if you donn’t already do it: don’t order supplies as they run out, make it a monthly thing (or whatever). Sounds counterinitutive to getting work done, but if there’s no magical neverending supply of pens, they may stop losing them.

    4. Judy (since 2010)*

      One department I worked for solved the issue by locking the supply cabinet, and putting the keys on a hook next to the admin during the day. So you had to walk up to her desk to get the key, it must have damped down at least some of the over grabbing of supplies.

    5. Not a Badmin anymore*

      Hmmm, the only hot ticket item that I saw go way more quickly than it should have were batteries, so I kept those at my desk and people had to ask me for them. But I don’t think that would work with pens. Do you have a big staff where it’s understandable? Are you responsible for ordering supplies? If so could you only order scissors, pens, etc as needed? Then you may have a better feel for how they are getting used.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      What if you just stopped restocking it so often? Make it known that supplies will be ordered twice a year and when they’re out, they won’t be replaced until the next scheduled order. Anything more, like doling out pencils, starts to creep into infantilizing behavior. They’re probably not using them up, just misplacing them and then getting a new one rather than look for it or keep track of it.

      1. JHunz*

        Refusing to restock will make the problem worse, as it will encourage everyone who wasn’t already hoarding a private stash of supplies to do so so they won’t be left without between restocks.

        1. Gumby*

          True, which is why you don’t announce it. You just let it run out. Have a very small secret stash (like 1 pen per employee or whatever) so if someone comes up to you all “we’re out of pens” you can say “Thanks for letting me know. I’ll add it to our next office supply order. In the meantime, here, take mine.” This might work because it is probably easier for them to look around a touch for one they have misplaced rather than tracking you down.

          Though I would do the ordering at least quarterly.

        2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          I think you’re assuming they’re hoarding like little hobgoblins when there really isn’t any indication of that. They’re probably just careless. Refusing to restock isn’t too much different from locking them up, but the message is more like “manage your resources better, people” rather than “I’m going to manage them for you, children.”

    7. Anna Held*

      We started locking after we found someone from a completely other, random department taking our supplies. After locking it, supply use went waaaaay down. Turns out it wasn’t our group at all, our closet was a known free-for-all. Any chance that’s what’s happening here? And even if it isn’t, could you frame it that way so people won’t feel targeted?

    8. Roses Angel*

      I made an annoucement (with manager approval) that supplies would be ordered on a certain date every month. If something was needed after that then they would need approval before it could be ordered. In addition I set up a spreadsheet and did inventory once a month. After a while our supplies suddenly started lasting longer.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      I don’t think there’s a way you can tell an already demoralized staff that they’re using too many pens without doing more damage. Or, for that matter, tell employers that you can’t afford pens for the office without reducing morale. Having to beg for writing materials is used as the a prototypical example of a dysfunctional and petty workplace.

      I wouldn’t assume that people are stealing pens for nefarious purposes – pens are easy to misplace, or have someone borrow and not give back. But I do think that if you restrict access people will start deliberately hoarding, so they aren’t stuck without a pen when they need ones.

      If you have valuable supplies that are going missing at an alarming rate, that’s a different thing.

      I suggest actually calculating how much you spend on pens in a month. If you’re spending hundreds of dollars on pens and scissors every month, then it’s worth investigating. But pens by the box are about ten cents each – you’re not going to save enough money even by cutting out pens completely to make up for the morale hit.

      1. Observer*

        You are also unlikely to save enough money to cover the amount of time you will lose to “pen management”.

        Has it occurred to anyone that at least part of the reason why morale is already low is because of such kind of petty behavior?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’m reminded of the year our state’s flagship university had budget issues…and they stopped ordering toilet paper.
          Everyone took a roll or two to their desk– because who would want to be the one stuck when it ran out? And the facilities team sent emails about excessive consumption.
          No, it was just smart people looking to cover their backsides. Er, literally.

  60. Astrid*

    This is my second school year as a high school ‘Media Aide’. I honestly really love this job, it’s very satisfying and relatively peaceful. I do not go home stressed at night like I used to when I worked in management, I like the people I work with, and I like the work itself.

    When I started here, my job mostly revolved around being in charge of the copyroom, maintaining the printers and running copies and whatnot. I also split my time working in the library, and my lunch duty was covering the ISS kids (which is my daily nightmare).

    In the year and a half since I started, though, I’ve become the go to person for any graphic design, creating hundreds of posters, flyers, banners, and whatever anyone can think of. I’m tech support and troubleshooter. I’ve taught more than one teacher how to use Excel properly. My school assigns each student an iPad, and I’m heavily involved in the distribution, technical support, and consequent collection of them. I’m constantly being pulled into classrooms to fix minor computer issues, or for brainstorming sessions when teachers need new creative ideas for bulletin boards or door decorating. I designed last year’s prom posters and will probably be doing the same this year. Even people outside the school have been calling me for assistance – I’ve been doing posters for people at the district office and photo manipulation for one of the elementary schools. The counseling staff pulled me to figure out an issue with some of the PSAT testing supplies, and I ended up teaching the rest of the staff how to solve the problem. I’ve proctored three different standardized tests this year. I cover 3-4 classes a day as a substitute, and am still expected to keep up with the copies, print jobs, laminating, and workroom upkeep. At the end of the year my ‘supervisor’ will be retiring, and she’s already preparing me to take on a lot of her responsibilities.

    I know the staff likes me, this year I was selected as the Support Employee of the year, which is usually only given to people with several years tenure. Teachers are constantly keeping tabs to see when/if I plan on leaving (the position was a bit of a revolving door before I came onboard) and begging me not to leave.

    All of this I do on what’s considered a part-time basis, since I only work seven hours a day and I don’t work during Fall/Christmas/Spring/Summer breaks. This wrecks my budgeting, as I don’t get paid for these breaks and it’s hard in my area to find a secondary job for that short of a period. A few weeks ago, a teacher I was talking with mentioned that that the amount of work I do should qualify me for at least beginning teacher salary, which averages three times as much as I’m making currently.

    So here’s my dilemma. I love this job. I love these people and I’m happy here. But it is not sustainable long term. Do I have any room to negotiate my position/pay? When I was hired they gave me a pay range, that I have been slowly climbing, a few cents at a time. I want to stay here and make a career, but I simply can’t on $13 an hour, ten months a year.

    1. Astrid*

      Addendum: Our school operates on a year round schedule, with two week breaks for Fall/Christmas/Spring, and six for summer. The teachers have their pay managed throughout the year so they don’t go without a check, but I just got my check for the Christmas Break period today and it was missing a substantial chunk due to the holiday. Ideally I’d love to get onto a similar plan, but I don’t know if I have any room to ask for such a thing.

    2. Temperance*

      You’re doing so much more than a “media aide”. Are there opportunities for full-time employment in the district? Do you have a degree in the work that you’re doing? Sometimes school districts can only hire employees full-time if they have certain credentials.

      Is there an opportunity for you to officially take your supervisor’s role?

      The issue I’m seeing here is that you’re going far above and beyond, and of course the teachers appreciate you; you’re doing tons of work, far beyond your pay grade, for little pay. You’re supposed to be working in a copy room, and you’re doing design work, training, and substitute teaching.

      1. Astrid*

        My supervisor told me they won’t hire to replace her, just partition out her duties to other people. Her husband was ill earlier this year and she was out for several weeks, I ended up picking up a lot of the slack. There’s been one other position open up in this school for the bookstore, but it’s significantly different from what I’m doing here. I like the work I’m doing, I don’t even mind the extra amount! I just want to be paid fairly for what I’m doing.

        I have a bachelor’s degree, which moved me farther up during the interviewing period, but I’m self-taught in terms of my software knowledge and graphics work.

        1. Temperance*

          To be blunt, I find it alarming that they aren’t going to give you the full-time position that you’ve been doing but will just expect you to keep doing it. It might make sense to consider taking your skills elsewhere, where you can get benefits and full-time hours.

          When they have you teaching, I hope they are paying you appropriately!

          1. Astrid*

            The pay doesn’t change on substituting days. I did get a check for the Saturday I proctored the SAT.

            I worry that since my job description includes substituting ‘as needed’ that they’ll consider it acceptable. It ends up being a lot of coverage though. Teacher’s regularly comment that they aren’t able to find me for help because I’m in a different classroom every period some days.

            (Related, it’s a bit scary, since I have to worry about fire/tornado/intruder situations for each room I’m in. And not every teacher posts clear instructions!)

    3. Llellayena*

      “I’ve noticed that I am doing far more in this role now than the position was originally advertised for. I love the change, but it’s difficult to get it all done as a part-time employee. Is it possible to reclassify the position to full time or part time, year-round?” The 6-week summer break is probably your worst time, it’s not long enough to pick up seasonal work but it’s too long to absorb expenses. If the role expansion doesn’t work, can you find a temp agency that will assign you only during those weeks?

      1. Astrid*

        Yeah the summer’s the worst. I am still on the list for a couple different temp agencies, from my unemployed period before I started here. I asked several times last summer and never really got an answer.

        And the frustrating thing is, the school offers extra hours during the summer, and I have plenty of work to keep me busy even. But I’ve asked, and never got a straight answer.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      Sorry, but the substitute teaching jumped out at me. Are you being paid as a teacher for those days? You should be. And if you have a teaching degree, you should ask about getting on the pay grid. Are the teachers in your district unionised? If so, call the union and tell them, I was hired as a media aide but I am doing this much teaching and not being paid as a teacher.

      1. Astrid*

        I don’t get any extra pay for days I sub. Rarely do I do a full day, it’s usually 2-3 periods. Our subs come through a temp service and if there is a last minute absence, they ask me to fill in. It’s not every day, but an average of two days a week.

        I don’t have a teaching degree, but I do have a bachelor’s. I have no desire to actually teach, and I know they would push for me to do so, so I’m avoiding getting one. :)

        1. Middle School Teacher*

          It’s odd they have non-teachers subbing, but ok then. In that case you are being taken advantage of.

          I’m not American so my system is different, but our subs get paid just over $200 for a full day and around $165 (I think) for a half-day pay. If you are subbing, whatever the subs get paid, you should also be getting paid. Personally that would be my hill (but I also work closely with our union and teachers being taken advantage of really grinds my gears). If you are not a certified teacher and you are not getting paid as one, you should not be subbing. It is literally admin’s job to cover in those cases.

          1. Astrid*

            Wow, yeah our subs make less than half that for a day of subbing, like, I got $65 to $70 when I was an actual substitute. Where I’m at now is an upgrade. And as far as I know, at least in our district, substitute teaching is considered on par with temp work. I don’t know of any subs that are certified teachers.

            1. Luisa*

              WOW. That is so low! My last district is one of the lowest-paying in my area, and even they paid $100/day for per diem subs, and they had trouble attracting and retaining reliable subs at that rate. (Per diem subs did not need to be certified teachers.)

    6. Luisa*

      Are you in a union and/or a member of a collective bargaining agreement? (I have many thoughts which may be helpful, but they are all based on the assumption that you are.)

        1. Luisa*

          If the teachers in your school/district have a CBA, you should ask about it – typically if a CBA exists for any positions, one exists to cover all of them (i.e. if the teachers have one, support staff probably have one too, which would likely cover your position).

          The reason I bring it up is that a CBA might cover raises that you are (or will be) eligible for based on experience and/or education, and it also might cover required pay increases for substitute teaching. However, it’s also possible that a CBA could limit your ability to make a case for a raise outside what’s outlined in the document, since a district that has a collective bargaining agreement with its staff would be unlikely to negotiate wages/working conditions/etc. with an individual employee.

          As others have suggested, it seems like you’re in a position to ask for a raise based on the duties you perform. Whether you can get paid year-round or reclassified might be trickier, though. I can only speak for districts with unions/CBAs (I’ve never worked in schools without one), but classifying someone as a teacher may require that employee to be a credentialed teacher, so even if you are performing teacher-level duties, a lack of teaching certificate may not allow for that switch. Similarly, the pay schedule may be driven by how you are classified as an employee. My current district pays all staff year-round (as in, annual salaries are distributed over 12 months, not 10) but my previous district only paid support staff over the 10 months of the school year. Neither district offers/offered employees the option of opting into a different pay schedule.

          I really hope you’re able to find a way to be more fairly compensated, and I encourage you to talk to knowledgeable/trustworthy colleagues about this. Good support staff are so valuable in a school, but they are often not well compensated (even compared to teachers, IMO).

    7. Ann O.*

      Given the discrepancy between what you’re doing and what you were hired to do as well as the fact that you’ve received official recognition, yes, you have room to negotiate. You may not get what you need, but you certainly have reason to ask for more.

      I don’t know what the hierarchy is, but I wouldn’t simply take your supervisor’s word for it that the school district won’t replace her. It may be more cost effective for them to promote you into her position and get to keep you than to lose both you and her and all the institutional knowledge/skills. If there’s a grand-supervisor, that may be the person to talk to about career paths/opportunities.

    8. Ellie*

      Polish your resume, making sure to include the tech stuff; craft a stunning cover lettter; apply to the media or print production center for the district (often housed in library services). In most districts, the pay and hours for positions is set by the admin building, and folks on your campus won’t have much say in upping your hours or pay. Districts thrive on “other duties as assigned,” so you won’t get more pay when the people who normally do the higher paid duties are out and you’re stuck doing them. Please don’t let your campus drain you in this way. You deserve fair payment for your work.

  61. Mashed potato*

    How do you go about looking for job while still working the same one? I got the taking phone call in private counts, but do you take a day off or come to work late for interviews if they’re a little lenient? I didn’t take weeks off around Christmas so maybe I can use “I need a day off bc I didnt take Amy during Christmas” excuse??

      1. Mashed potato*

        IM not gonna assume i can get a job in few interviews bc if I get a lot of appointments it gonna be fishy

        1. irene adler*

          Can you schedule interviews before or after work hours?
          Can you develop an illness that needs regular doc appointments?
          And yes, you may have to take a day off here and there- esp. if they want to do a half day (or longer)interview.

          2. nonegiven*

            Dentist, multiple appointments.
            Family business: lawyer, accountant, bank, can also get more than one appointment out of each.
            The appliance repair, roofing, leaking cellar, HVAC emergency, then again when the parts come in.

    2. Drax*

      I like to try and schedule them all for one day if possible. If you get a call and they want Tuesday, and someone else calls ask if there’s anyway they can do Tuesday. A suprising amount of potential employers are happy to do it if you word it like “I actually have Tuesday off next week, any chance we can meet then?” they may say no, but I found a lot of them did make it work.

      I called in sick two days in a row (interviews), then had some ‘follow up appointments’ (read: more interviews) in the following weeks. If you get some notice, then just ask to take the day off. If your boss asks why Tuesday, just say you have an appointment and could use a day off so it seemed like a good day.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      You can get a couple half-days/few hours out of dental appointments. I’ve also taken my lunch time at a different time when an interview is short and local/phone or video.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        But do remember to schedule your REAL dental appointments on weekends & evenings!

  62. Alldogsarepuppies*

    Is there a professional way to deal with coworkers doing slightly unethical things at work. But unrelated to work? Two examples – 1. while reading news articles online (perfectly acceptable use of downtime at my office) and run out of free articles encouraging each other to get around the firewall with the various known methods (i.e. delete cookies or go incognito). 2. Using the work fax for personal use (once again acceptable in our office as long as its only a page or two every now and then) but to get a phycologist (not theirs) to send a letter “certifying” their pet as emotional support to get free airline fare. This coworker was extremely vocal that they didn’t actually need an ESA and their pet wasn’t one, but they didn’t want to pay.

    In my personal life I call out friends for stealing (by not paying for articles) and that esp. when free press is under attack its important to pay for the journalism we want. And I am brutal to people making it harder for the use of ESA and service animals that are actually necessary.

    I’m not particularly interested in if you think these things are ethical, because they are only examples, but scripts or reframing are helpful.

    1. fposte*

      Since this is at work, one question I’d ask myself is “Am I being paid to debate this issue right here and now?” The answer would usually be no–work generally isn’t funding employees to police other employees’ non-work ethics, and they *are* paying you to get along with one another. So I’d say at most you have a brief, low-key statement to the effect of “To me that’s not cool” and then you move back to other stuff.

    2. this probably won't work, i know*

      This is tricky. If they’re on the grey scale of ethical, and in a way that isn’t directly related to the work you guys are doing, I think you have to disentangle acceptable use of work stuff and things I find morally objectionable. Like in the cases you mentioned above, it seems like you’re using an acceptable use of work stuff as a means to addressing something you find unethical that maybe you wouldn’t bring up otherwise. I don’t know if this is fair.

    3. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Don’t moralize at your coworkers. It’s going to make them think of you as a self-righteous busybody and do absolutely nothing to change their behavior.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah the issue to me is that we all draw our own lines over what is acceptably uncool versus A Moral Issue that Must Be Spoken About. So there are probably lots of small things that you’re doing with a shrug that somebody else could Raise With You – and yet, I don’t really appreciate it when someone decides that today is the day to draw the line on my small vices. So live and let live until some physical person in front of you is actually being tangibly harmed is kind of the order of the day in the workplace.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I was thinking “Let she who has never watched an unlicensed YouTube clip throw the first stone.”

    4. Lilysparrow*

      1. Don’t help them do it.

      2. Feel free to allow your opinion of them to inform your choices of who to socialize with outside of work.

      3. If anyone solicits your approval or congratulations for their cleverness, the “not cool” phrasing is fine.

      4. Otherwise, mind your own beeswax.

  63. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    An update on last Friday’s thread where I posted about the ridiculously extensive recruiting process for a job I’m very interested in. I had the in-person interview with the hiring manager yesterday and it went very well. However, at the end of the interview she indicated that if I move forward, there will be yet ANOTHER interview with someone else on the team and someone in senior management. I told the hiring manager that if there is another interview I’d appreciate it if they could accommodate a meeting as close to after hours as possible, as my current job requires a week’s notice to use vacation time (plus I don’t feel like burning any more PTO on this than I have to). She seemed receptive to the idea and said a recruiter would contact me regarding whether I would be moving forward or not after they wrapped up the last of their interviews.

    The big thing for me (assuming I do get advanced to the next round) is to get the salary pinned down before I put one more iota of time into this process. I did give the initial recruiter I had the phone screen with my salary requirements and they said they “didn’t think it would be a problem”, but I’ve been burned before by a recruiter for another job who didn’t actually know what he was talking about when he said the same exact thing. The recruiting team (who I have a feeling is a vendor or consulting firm that looks internal on the surface) for this job has been so disorganized I don’t really trust anything I’m not hearing from the employer directly.

    I’m going to see this through to the end, but if I don’t wind up with an offer I’m going to take a break from applying to other jobs for a while. I’ve got a new manager who seems to want to fix at least a couple of things that have been making my unhappy, so if this opportunity doesn’t pan out I think I’ll give her a chance to do that. I have some other things I want to focus on that this process has been a major distraction from as well, and I’d like to get back to them.

  64. Not Much Good At Social Media*

    At my tiny org, part of my job is to try to use social media to drive sales of our product. This was a tacked-on responsibility that’s not related to my main job, which is creating the product that we sell. I don’t really understand how something like tweeting once a day and updating our facebook page once a day (which are what I’m instructed to do) are driving sales, especially since it’s supposed to be “fun things” and not sales pitches, per the media training I received. I get that there’s such a thing as visibility but … who is finding our facebook page or twitter page and then following it just for fun, and then maybe deciding down the line that they want to buy our product? I’m puzzled by how this works. Currently the only people connecting to our page are people we already know in some other context, who likely already knew about our product and were going to buy it or not regardless of cute things I post. The advice I got was to try to use social media to drive people to our website (where presumably someone would learn about our product and perhaps buy it), but I can tell you that’s not currently working. It all seems so woolly and opaque to me.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Totally hear you. I am in the same boat. As far as I can tell, my company, which creates products to sell, is in the exact same boat. We post once a day (more or less) on chosen social media platforms but as far as I can tell, except for generating some vague comments (“we love your products!”) and likes, we have no evidence that it has generated sales.

      That said, some people prefer SM to email, etc. so this might still be a way to let people know about sales (even if generally the mandate is to be “fun” not “sales-y”. Also, if a current customer likes your product, easier for them to share a specific post to their page or to a friend’s page or in PM, then going through effort of find your webpage/SM accounts, etc. and then sharing.

      I am sure other commenters here with more SM expertise than I can be more specifically helpful than me.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Hey, me too! I’m young and like technology, so I inherited our company Twitter and LinkedIn, plus access to the website and instructions to add to the blog. Posting regularly on Twitter increased our follower count by ten in the last three years. But after I went in and removed all the porn stars, we’re at a net loss of followers. xD

      My boss briefly hired a company to do this instead, but man did that backfire. I have backups saved of the stuff they posted, it’s honestly hilariously terrible.

      It’s done nothing and is kind of a pointless use of my time.

    3. FD*

      There’s a lot of really bad advice out there which boils down to:

      1. Do a thing on social media.
      2. ???
      3. Profit

      And that’s not…really how it works.

      Now, here’s what I have seen work successfully.

      Generally speaking, companies that do this well figure out who their ideal client is and what sort of information is ACTUALLY useful and interesting to them.

      For instance, let’s say you’re an investment advisor. Your clients might be interested in things like:
      1. Articles about how a new tax law might affect them
      2. Stories from retirees about planning a great vacation for less than they expected
      3. Tips on how hand over your business to the next generation

      Ideally, you would want to post links that cause people to not just read them passively, but engage in some way. Often, you’ll see this as a call to action, which might be something like, “Post a photo of your dream vacation”. This both increases the visibility of the business page, and also gets people to think about the company.

      The idea is that if a business provides content that’s useful and engaging, then when the business actually asks them to buy something, it seems natural—if anything, when done really well, it feels like it’s a small price to pay in comparison to the value given for free.

      So, to actually succeed, try to think about who your businesses clients’ are and what they’d actually be interested in reading/having. But…honestly, to do this well, you usually need someone who can spend some serious time on it, and that may not be the best use of time for a small business.

      1. OP*

        Thank you, this is helpful. I think my problem is that I’m not a user of social media in my own life really, so it’s hard for me to imagine that people *want* their tax advisor to show them articles or whatever – I always find spam emails annoying and rarely want to continue down the engagement path from passively noting an article to clinking links to signing up for something to paying … in fact, I really resist this. But, I have to remember that the people I’m trying to reach probably aren’t much like me. I do think that my company is a little muddled since they definitely are only interested in social media as a way to ultimately drive sales – they are too small to be paying me to do it “just for fun” or to raise our profile in a non-lucrative way, or whatever.

        1. FD*

          Yeah, to work it has to be ACTUALLY useful to the client, and finding those articles–even if you’re not writing them yourself–is time consuming.

    4. Temit*

      I would look at Google Ad Words so that people searching for your product or something that your product does will find you. And anyone coming to your website should be able to connect on Twitter/LinkedIn/FB to grow your ‘community’.

    5. Hamburke*

      Do you track your views and clicks? It might be helpful to see this data to determine what is working.

    6. Workerbee*

      We’re a small org and I was originally hired to do manage social media. We’re B2B so our tactics might be a little different, as social lends itself more admirably to B2C. We had to realize that we’re not, generally, speaking to people with the money to buy our services, but instead to the people who will take us to their leaders who can.

      First, we focused on increasing awareness of company/products/mission in general. We tracked sheer quantity of followers at this point. We’re in a very niche org where you’ve either heard of us already or you never knew we existed, so we had a whole wide field to catch.

      Then, after we determined we had enough followers (after about a year; benchmark against your own goals), we did keep tracking quantity, but focused on increasing engagement. This is where third-party analytics can help above Facebook/Twitter/etc. built-in analytics. This is also where far more strategy and planning came in and has continued to do so with the person I trained when I moved up.

      But for us, we never used social media as a sales channel or lead generation. Any website traffic/leads we could prove through Google’s social funnel were considered delightful extras. This goes back to our audience awareness and strategy. This also may not work with what you’ve been instructed to do, but I’m wondering if what you were instructed to do was just an out-of-the-box set of “This is how social works for businesses” that didn’t take into account audience reality, so perhaps you can influence the direction.

      As well, here are some tactics I’ve used–keep in mind I did this full-time, so all of this may not be feasible:
      1. Talk to people as if they’re people and you’re people, too, not a business avatar, not a corporate talking head. We did keep salesy stuff off our channels, but you can be conversational while still posting about your products
      2. Mix up your content with ‘fun’ things. I never underestimate the power of Snoopy or flowers. I also turned snippets from our website blog posts into company-branded memes to make it easy for people to pass around our words of wisdom. :)
      3. Comment on pages/accounts related to your industry either directly or as widely as you can. For example, a component of our training is empathy. I could therefore comment on or share from pages who spout out empathetic memes if a good one came along.
      4. Give stuff away. Free resources (ebooks, webinars, etc). These of course are paid for by information: They should be housed on the website and be accessed via a form to get people into the lead gen funnel.
      5. And when you post a link to your website, make sure the content it goes to (where applicable) has that Free Resource download on the page with that form.
      6. You’ve got people who already know you. Talk to them. Why do they support you? How has using your product(s) helped them? Nurture them to advocate for you. It’s far better for someone else to say you’re great than for you to say you’re great, human nature being what it is. Let them do the shouting from the rooftops. You can also ask to use their testimonial/story elsewhere, on your website, repurposed as a meme, etc.

      Good luck! And just in case you don’t want to do this part of the job anymore, I hope you’re able to get rid of it. :) :)

  65. librarianprobs*

    I’m pretty confident that I am incorrectly classified as hourly non-exempt. I’ve been in this job for almost 4 years and I inherited the job description from the previous person. I’ve made a ton of changes to the department (me + one other person) and the workload has changed significantly – primarily research and writing projects, project management, strategic planning. I travel 5-6 times a year. I hire and supervise interns. I have a Masters’ degree + additional coursework. I do get a fair amount of overtime every year.

    Is it worth requesting a change? What’s the best way to approach it?

    1. fposte*

      Legally speaking, being non-exempt is fine whatever you do. Tim Cook could be non-exempt. Do you *want* to change to exempt? You’ll lose the OT possibility, of course, so you’d probably want to ask for a different base annual pay. (Most librarians are classified as exempt, but again, that’s not obligatory–what you can’t legally do is misclassify somebody the other way, as exempt when they should be non-exempt.)

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Why do you want the change? I’m not trying to be rude or anything, but the benefits of overtime often out weigh the benefits of being exempt, as a librarian whose been both.

      My big question would be why do you want the change and how much salary would you have to make to make it worth it.

    5. JustAskingForAFriend*

      You can probably figure it out on the website for your state’s Bureau of Labor & Industries. They have a variety of requirements for non-exempt.

      1. fposte*

        There are no requirements for non-exempt, though. Only exemption has requirements. It’s easy to get confused, because the terminology is so damn confusing and because there’s so much discussion about being incorrectly categorized as exempt, which the law does care about. However, non-exempt is the default state–you don’t have to meet any requirements.

        1. Natalie*

          Right, it’s “non-exempt from this specific law”, which is everybody until determined otherwise.

          1. fposte*

            I wish the phraseology were something like “covered” and “exempt.” It would be so much clearer.

  66. SophieChotek*

    I had an interview for a job this morning. 75% of the job I think I already have skill set to do/could pick up very easily/have been told we would receive training on.

    It is the last 25% I am worried about – which is the SEO/data analysis portion. That is the part that worries me about it. I do social media management in my position, but it is not analytical – more like monitoring our accounts, responding to comments, having a (vague) strategy in place in case something blew up over social media, etc. I tried learning Google Analytics once and I pretty much felt lost and overwhelmed after about 6 of the GA lessons provided by Google.

    If I make it to interview #2 should I just point blank as if we will receive training? They did not ask me about any skill I had in that area, but I can see where if my resume says I do so social media management, they might assume that means SEO/social media analytical skills….but honestly I do not have it. That might make them re-consider me, but if that is a large portion of the job and it is not a skillset I have, probably be better they know now, I suppose?

    1. irene adler*

      Nobody knows everything.
      You can ask what kinds of enrichment programs they offer to their employees.
      You can also ask how they expect employees to acquire new skills that might be needed for the job.
      Do they offer tuition reimbursement or the like?

      You don’t have to tell them your weaknesses outright.
      However, the second interview may go into detail on your skill levels. And they may realize that you have value to them separate from the data analysis portion. Question is, are you willing to take classes/instruction to remedy this? That may be the thing they want to see.

  67. Amber T*

    My coworker (technically a tier above me, but we report to the same boss) is the only one in our company who’s part time (30 hours). Everyone else (on salary) is on your standard 40+ hours, 9-6ish schedule. This is something she negotiated when she was offered, as well as working from home some times (we all have the ability to work remotely, but that’s used for when the plumber is coming, your kid is out sick, etc. It’s flexible, but not in the “I’m going to work from home every Wednesday” kind).

    She shifts her days around every couple of months, which again, she can do, but it’s frustrating. You get used to her coming in on Tuesdays, and all of a sudden it’s not her schedule anymore. But ok, we deal with it. It’s also hard to remember when she’s working from home vs when she’s not working (because working from home is not usual for the rest of us, and there’s usually an email in the morning from whoever saying they’d be working from home that day).

    Her constant shift of schedule is getting our HR person confused, and now coworker is getting offended whenever she asks. Coworker and I were in her office yesterday, and HR came in to ask what her plan was for the new year, since she had mentioned changing her schedule in January. Coworker later came in ranting and upset – why is she always so concerned about her schedule, is she ever so concerned about mine? (No, because unless I use a vacation or sick day, or let them know I’ll be working from home for *reason,* I’ll be in the office.)

    HR isn’t a dedicated HR person – it’s a secondary responsibility for her (we outsource a lot of HR stuff, but communicating (and tracking) benefits is on her). I understand why she’s confused – I work with coworker almost every day and I’m confused! I don’t know all the details, but I know that how many hours she works will affect her healthcare. I also think there was an issue when she first started that grandboss promised things that we weren’t set up to do, so HR initially said no, then had to find a work around with insurance or healthcare or something. Coworker blamed HR for that, even though it wasn’t communicated to her and was completely out of the norm for us.

    I guess – how do I handle her ranting? If it was really unfair, it would be easier, but me trying to say “your situation is unusual, she’s just trying to figure it out” didn’t go over well. It did stop the rant, but she complained about to our boss afterwards (I didn’t hear his response). I think this is mostly not my circus, so not my monkeys, but I do want to defend HR, because I don’t think she’s doing anything wrong.

    1. valentine*

      Let it go. If you want to advise her to post her hours/location in an OOO, go ahead. Otherwise, shut her down and walk away. Don’t defend HR.

    2. WellRed*

      Well, does HR really need to know what her schedule is? I mean, I understand about hours impacting healthcare eligibility, but other than that, the coworker needs to work with and communicate with her team members, not HR.

    3. Dreamboat Annie*

      Is coworker not required to do a timesheet? Seems like that would fix HR’s problem and should be routine. If coworker complains no one else has to do it, well, they are in a different situation and has no reason to be “insulted” or annoyed.
      And it is coworker’s manager’s job to set up a standard method of communicating when she is available!
      Replying to the rant? Maybe “huh, in other places I worked it was standard for part-timers to let their co-workers know their hours.”

  68. LessNosy*

    I’ve recently been given a new, large responsibility – let’s say Teapot Promotion. My “work mom”/mentor (WM) used to handle Teapot Promotion as a good 1/4 of her job. Now, this falls on me, with no reduction to my already jam-packed list of responsibilities (FWIW, my boss -did- give me a raise though). I’m mostly fine with this – maybe internally slightly frustrated because we are understaffed and no one cares – because WM needed more time to take on a Brand New Project. However, whenever anyone mentions Teapot Promotion even in passing, WM gleefully makes comments like “glad that’s not my job anymore!” or “make sure you put LessNosy’s name on that one!” literally multiple times a day. It’s starting to bother me – this is a significant increase to my workload and her comments are really frustrating me and making me feel as if people aren’t realizing that I’m really sacrificing here and stepping up to the plate. Aside from saying things petty things like “yeah, wish I had someone to unload tasks on” or “yes, in addition to my existing duties” a couple of times (which completely flew under the radar…), I haven’t said anything specifically pertaining to the comments.

    I don’t want to make her upset by saying “stop celebrating this!” but is there anything I can do to stop the comments? They haven’t let up at all and it’s been a few weeks…

    2. MsM*

      “WM, I understand that you’re happy to have these tasks off your plate. In fact, I’m pretty sure no one understands where you’re coming from better than me. If people genuinely are still routing stuff to you, I’m happy to help redirect them, but otherwise, do you think maybe you could tone the ‘glad it’s not me any more’ comments down just a notch?”

      If she’s more upset about not getting to gloat that this is your problem than apologetic for not realizing how you might feel about it, then I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about hurting her feelings.

  69. TacoTsunami*

    I recently learned that after over a year of trying, my husband and I are expecting! Yay!
    However, not so yay – I’ve been leading an all-encompassing, company-wide project that goes live the exact week of my predicted due date. Think we’re moving from designing teapots on paper to using 3d design software, and I’m responsible for building the 3d software, setting it up, deploying it, and then training a thousand users on how it works.

    The go-live date is absolutely nonnegotiable. We’re reaching the final piece of the implementation phase now: we’re getting ready to send out our pilot groups of power users, and starting to kick off training of the bulk of the constituents. I’m also lead on coordinating the external training, while the plan is for me to be the in-house SME post rollout. Because of the way it’s structured, the entire backend will be a complete entity the day we flip the switch, the users will be fully trained, and the focus will then shift to supporting the transition on the front-facing side. I predict heavy hands-on work for the front-facing piece in the month post roll-out.

    I’ve been wrestling with how to proceed. One thought is that I tell my supervisor now, very, very early, so we can create a backup plan for contingencies and figure out how this is all going to work. There’s other people who can support the backend work while I’m out, but I have a pretty specialized skillset for the other pieces. My plan is to be available via email during my maternity leave, and to work remotely as often as possible (something I already have a proven track-record of doing successfully). I’ll have a really good support network around me at the time, so barring new-mother exhaustion, I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to check in regularly. My biggest concern is that my supervisor will phase me out of the front-facing work, and once someone else has proven themselves there, it’s a piece I might not be able to get back.. and I would want it back! I’m also somewhat scared my supervisor will start to phase me out of the bigger pieces of the implementation in order to have someone else get as skilled as I currently am.. which seems to be a pretty logical move as well.

    Does anyone have any experience with this, either from my side or as a supervisor? Thoughts? I’ve sunk hundreds upon hundreds of hours into this, and it’s been the focus of my day-to-day life for more than two years. I’m actually so concerned with losing my project that it’s overshadowing the happiness around this baby, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Traveling Teacher*

      If your supervisor is a reasonable person, tell them now! Recently, I told mine when I was only 6weeks along for similar reasons–honestly, it was extremely reassuring! He is an eminently reasonable man and very good planner and has been able to get ahead of a lot of the issues with me having the baby/taking maternity leave at a certain time in the project. Inconvenient, yes, but a lot easier to plan for than a sudden accident or illness.

      Especially if you tell them ahead of time, they shouldn’t be able to take you out of your current role–they should be able to plan for it instead, right? And, if you’ve spent 2 years building this up, it’s unlikely that someone else will be able to replace you so quickly!

      Also, don’t plan to work during your maternity leave. You might not be able to. Birth is no joke for a woman’s body, and sleep deprivation is real. And, it’s an important time to focus on your own healing and bonding with your baby. (I had a traumatic birth with my first, and I’ve heard the same from so many other women!)

      1. Elizabeth Proctor*

        Agree with TT. I thought I would have time during maternity leave. No time. I thought my baby would just sleep a lot. Oh, she did, but I had to be holding her. I really would not tell anyone you can work during leave.

        1. TacoTsunami*

          Thanks, EP. Hearing from other women in similar situations is immensely helpful! I’m actually the only woman in my family who’s going back to work after, and I have very few friends who didn’t quit their jobs to be SAHM, so I don’t have a great frame of reference.

      2. TacoTsunami*

        Thank you.. This was actually tremendously reassuring. I think I’ve just spent so long fighting for this that I’m feeling very territorial and afraid of losing it, but maybe the next phase of stewardship is to be sure it’s carried on in good hands while I can’t be there.

        I’m so sorry you had a difficult birth, but glad you had the time to focus on you and healing afterwards! I’ll definitely take that advice under consideration.. Right now since I’m feeling great and barely-pregnant I suspect I’m being overly optimistic, but it’s good to hear from other women who also juggled birth, leave and jobs!

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t tell them until week 20. They’ll still have time to plan and neither baby is likely to stick to the due date. Congratulations.

    2. WellRed*

      You sound like the proverbial “rock star” so I would hope that your company will work with you on all of this in order to not lose you to something bigger and better. I don’t have kids, but please, reconsider whether you’ll realistically want to work at all on maternity leave. Your baby is an even bigger project ; )
      Congratulations and let us know what the boss says.

    3. Ranon*

      I’m an architect and had a project that was supposed to wrap up a month or two before I had my kiddo and actually went out to bid a month after. It was hard to see other people finish it, but I also got to skip the whole construction/ implementation part which definitely had some positive sides (I work in a firm where typically people follow their projects from initial design all the way through completion of construction so projects usually stay mine until they are done)

      I doubt there’s a big difference operationally in telling them super early and waiting until your second trimester or so- in my experience people don’t really realize you are definitely going to have the baby and definitely will be gone until a few weeks before you have the kiddo (and that’s assuming you go full term- pretty much everyone I know who gave birth at, say, 35 weeks had workplaces that were scrambling because everyone thought due dates were real, the fools).

      The best thing you can do for them and you is do a really really good job of documenting things. This really paid off for me- I had a different project go on hold right after I went on maternity leave and my documentation really saved me when I was the person picking it up when it came back on line. Due dates are lies and no one tells the baby the due date, so write everything down. And then write down where everything is written down. People will have to figure out the rest themselves. If they actually plan for your absence in advance, that’s wonderful, but unless you work with magic unicorns I wouldn’t assume that’s really going to happen.

  70. Teapot librarian*

    This week in Adventures in Hoarding. Employee A sends an email to the entire office describing the all-hands project we were going to do this morning. Hoarder responds, copying all in the office, saying this project is a bad idea, that I excluded him, that he didn’t have enough notice of the project, and some other things. I responded directly to him, copying only Employee A, saying that we really need to do this project, but I hear his concerns, and here are two options for how to move forward. Which would work better for him? Hoarder then responds to the entire office again–which means he had to actively add people back to the email–saying that I was ignoring proper procedures and protocols, that I’m overlooking and excluding him, that I’m ignoring his years of experience, and that I’ve given him three new assignments [NB: this is mostly true. One is something he was supposed to have done three and a half years ago, but I guess since I hadn’t pushed him on it, it’s “new.” Another will take him maybe 20 minutes, tops.] in the last week so he doesn’t have time to do this one.
    Anyway, it was a very long email in which I was made out to be the one in the wrong, entirely, copied to the entire office. New boss, who I think is going to be supportive if she ever has time to sit down with me, says (as commenters here have said as well!) that I need to divorce my emotional reaction from his actions, but I cannot figure out how to do that.

    1. Sara without an H*

      Well, yes, you do need to divorce your emotional reaction from his actions. Hoarder is “that guy,” and this is how he’s always going to behave. Responding emotionally to him will just wear you out and not resolve the situation.

      I wouldn’t worry about the reactions of the rest of your office. They’re probably just highly entertained by these exchanges.

      What bothers me most is that it sounds like there’s a culture of non-management in your organization. You need to sit down with New Boss (body check her, if necessary) to discuss this situation.

      1. Teapot librarian*

        Do you have any tips on how to divorce my emotions from his actions? (I actually made an appointment with my long-neglected–by me–therapist to discuss this, but my appointment isn’t for a few weeks.) In the meantime, my boss and I don’t work in the same building so body checking her isn’t an option. I did get a half hour with her on Monday; we were scheduled for an hour but she got held up in an earlier meeting with someone higher on the org chart than her, so what can you do.

      2. valentine*

        Why do you have to justify yourself to him? Why not tell him to mind his own business (which is what you assign him)? Go ahead and reply all, so he can’t complain you’re doing dirt in the dark. Is he not shameless? I recommend Emotional Blackmail and Toxic Parents (even if you think it doesn’t apply) by Susan Forward (downsides: no racial analysis, obsession with gender binary) for learning to detach and stop treating his missives as emergencies and assigning yourself the task of being his personal first responder.

      3. Teapot librarian*

        Any tips on HOW to divorce my emotions from his actions? I’ve made an appointment with my long-neglected (by me) therapist to help work on this, but that’s not for a few weeks.
        Unfortunately, my boss and I work in different locations, so connecting with her without an appointment is difficult. Even WITH an appointment is difficult!

        1. Zweisatz*

          As per “adult children of emotionally immature parents“ (another book which might help even though it s not about coworkers) detached observation might help. Essentially you’ll want to describe to yourself how your coworker behaves, the emotions he transports, maybe also the emotions it makes you feel, but you’re there as a scientist who makes note of these things mentally instead of being in the moment emotionally. You want to stay in your brain, thinking, so to speak.

          Speaking of books “When I say no I feel guilty” might also be interesting. It presents a lot of hands-on strategies to communicate assertively and, among other things, deal with criticism. It’s from the 70s so there are some questionable examples in there, but the strategies are helpful nevertheless.

          In the case of your coworker I think you’ll want to notice his tantrums in a detached manner (‘oh, here we go again. Just 3 accusations this time, interesting’), and get right back to the issue at hand. I think the latter part you’re already doing. You gave him two options and he decided to look like a fool by copying the whole office into the email. Your manager should definitely step up and have a word with him, but in the meantime he’s not doing himself any favors by acting this way.

    2. Drax*

      While very very childish, it’s remarkably cathartic to make faces at the email as well and VERY quietly mocking it / saying how you really feel about it. Just be very very sure no one will over hear you. Sometimes I will do it in my car on my way home when I am alone and for sure no one I work with will hear it.

      Usually makes me feel better about it. It’s a human nature to have emotional reactions at things, it’s professionalism to push past it un-phased (even if it really did phase you). I’d also wager that if 3 years on a single project because you didn’t baby him- you are not the only one who sees how bad Employee A is and a lot of those folks probably saw that email for what it really was- a tantrum that has not much to do with you.

    3. Katerina*

      Oh, Hoarder! Why must you be so you?

      What worked for me in this situation was to vent right away to a safe sounding board. In my case, it was to another manager who knew my Hoarder and knew me and was good at affirming my righteousness and, when asked, would help me brainstorm possible responses. Once I got the emotions off my chest, I could move on. Cautionary note: vent up or out, though, never down.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I suspect that the other employees are rolling their eyes at his shenanigans. It sounds as though he forwarded the whole chain so people would be able to see both that you tried to give him options and to work with him, and that you tried to de-escalate by not including everyone. My guess would be that most of your colleagues were sympathetic to you – it’s unlikely that you’ve been his only victim.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      One of the ways I have learned to divorce my emotions from my actions is to remember this- I can not change my emotional reaction to something. I simply can not change it. It is what it is.

      However, I have complete control over how I react to my emotions. That is within my control.

      So, my therapist once suggested that I right down what emotion I am feeling at the time ie: I am feeling angry because hoarder employee is blaming me to for X and Y. And then I look at my sentence and decide what makes the most sense to do, but sometimes having it down on paper (or a word document I immediately delete) helps me.

      The other thing you may also have to remind yourself of over and over again, is that you can not change Hoarder’s reactions or responses. You can only change your reactions and responses. So, take control over what you can control and good luck! It’s super hard when you’ve been pushed to the edge like this.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Does Hoarder work for you? If yes, I think it’s time for a hard conversation telling him that his behavior is inappropriate. At the very least he has misused replytoall. He has also claimed as “new” something assigned to him years ago. He has publicly accused you of ignoring proper procedures & protocols.

      If he doesn’t work for you, I’m at a loss.

  71. Teapot Painter*

    Somewhat urgent question RE: Upcoming performance reviews

    A bit of background: I am a teapot designer working for a family owned company. I left a rather stressful workplace that did a lot of things in abnormal and unnecessarily stressful ways. My new company is generally very healthy and I love the atmosphere here. It is very laid back and everyone works together very well. I like what I do, and last year’s feedback was very positive.

    I am nervous about this year’s feedback for a couple of reasons. 1: We had a large project that needed immediate attention in our busiest season, and I am scared that the time I lost working on that project will affect my review. I had a hard time getting back on track after that.

    Another concern: my coworker (who I answer to only occasionally and who is my boss for reasons of future certification in my field) does not have the same work ethic I do. She is a far superior designer, but is usually late on projects. I hear the grand boss(who I work with directly on most of my projects) reprimand her on her timeliness all the time. She is also very talkative. We share an office, and the mood is generally to work some of the time and chat and browse and shop the rest of the time. I resisted doing that the first year since I wanted to prove myself. This year I let myself go and kinda followed her example. She has been with the company for over a decade, so I am not worried about losing my job over it, but it goes against my values personally.

    Is this something I can talk about during my performance review? That due to the large project, family members passing away, and a general atmosphere of low work output, I was not able to be at my best this year? And if so, how can I take responsibility for myself in the future?

    1. AliceW*

      I’d wait to hear the feedback and if they have concerns about your work, acknowledge their concerns and explain the reasons behind your lack of excellence. Just be matter of fact, but don’t get too bogged down with details, don’t make excuses, and I wouldn’t talk about co-workers. Just say something like- I lost a bit of focus this past year due to the time-consuming project and some personal family matters, but I really enjoy working here and am committed to regaining my focus and working harder in 2019.

    2. ..Kat..*

      For the future, can you get an office of your own? Can you use headphones? Come up with some “it’s time for me to get back to work” scripts?

      1. Teapot Painter*

        The scripts, yes! Everything else, no. Unless I want to be like Merton(IIRC his name right!) from Office Space and get an office in the basement.

  72. spoon*

    Ways to manage an unhappy employee? I would love any management advice or book recs you have.

    Jane has a very unstable home life and financial situation right now and it is spilling into work and bringing morale down in the office. She’s in a position with no room for growth or promotion and is extremely resentful that she can’t move up without changing her job. Think receptionist*. We are very supportive of growth and would help her if she wanted to transfer (eg there might be room to grow our billing department), but she loves answering phones and there’s only so much that we pay for reception. She can’t leave because we offer such good benefits but she doesn’t seem to understand that those benefits are part of why compensation appears low (we have explained, multiple times, but she still responds that it ”doesn’t seem fair”). Management does have its problems, but not supporting employee growth isn’t one if them. She’s letting her frustration about this bleed over onto things that are unreasonable to be annoyed about, such as saying that the CEO who has met her once and works in another building doesn’t respect her because he forgot her name.

    She is so angry and resentful and I just don’t know how to enforce “you need to not be constantly unhappy and venting to coworkers” when she has very understandable home reasons to be. Her coworkers know all about the situation and are trying to be supportive. It doesn’t spill onto anyone’s work, just office water-cooler talk.

    Any advice?

    *fake job for anonyminity

    1. Rey*

      I would not bring up the home life stuff at all, because regardless of that, you would still want her to not be noticeably angry and resentful at work. If you haven’t already, have a very detailed discussion with her–exactly what you have observed, the concrete changes you need her to make, and the related timeline and consequences. She should understand clearly that if she doesn’t make changes, her job is at risk and you would have to let her go. And if you’ve already explained the compensation thing multiple times, I would stop trying to explain it. If she brings it up again, just state the facts without trying to get her to understand/be happy about it (i.e., the compensation range for your position is $X, and we will not pay any higher than that).

      1. valentine*

        You just enforce it, because she needs to behave professionally and your environment sounds enmeshed. Draw the line here and dial back the oversharing. This many people shouldn’t know all about her personal struggles.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If it’s not impacting her work, or anyone else’s work, what *is* it impacting? How is it affecting morale? Address that.

      Remember, you’re not telling her she can’t be unhappy. You’re telling her she needs to stop letting it rule her emotions at work, because it’s causing X, whatever X is. So I’d stop trying to explain her compensation (unless you can do what my job does, which is to provide a printout of your total compensation including salary and benefits, and then somehow manage to procure the same information from a competitor or two, showing that she is fairly compensated but it’s divided into different pots) and concentrate on telling her what you need from her. “I understand you’re frustrated and unhappy, and I’m very sorry to hear that. I wish there was more I could do to help. But it’s causing X, so I need you to rein it in while you’re in the office.”

      But… if the only thing happening is that she’s complaining a lot, and you don’t like it… I don’t know, maybe just try to put up with it for a while, while she works through her unstable situation?

    3. Kathenus*

      Over the past few years, we’ve had success in my teams with shutting down things like this by having a frank discussion that 1) this (whatever it is that’s making the person unhappy – the pay rate, a certain work duty, in our case it was the frequency of evening events they had to rotate coverage on) is a feature of this job, 2) it is not going to change, 3) people can feel however they want about it but being unhappy/frustrated is only hurting them, and 4) that we are not going to continue to listen/discuss/re-litigate this thing anymore. So basically – accept this part of the job, if you don’t keep your frustrations to yourself, if neither of these work for you then consider whether or not this is the job for you. Simply refusing to keep discussing whatever it was has helped dramatically, after having the open conversation about it as mentioned above.

    4. WellRed*

      Moving up without changing her job is so unrealistic I…what?! Also, pinning her job satisfaction solely on being able to answer phones is pretty self limiting. Not sure she’s cut out for the work world.

  73. anon24*

    College for dummies.

    Can anyone explain starting college to me like I am a 5 year old? I never really got to go and am now in my mid 20s, work full time, and would like to go. How do I find a college amidst so many, and how does everything generally work?

    I did attempt to take classes at the community college a few years ago and for reasons I’d rather not get into that is not an option for me, unfortunately. I got a certification through a different college, but the application was literally giving them my personal info and a one paragraph “essay” on why I wanted to join the program. The college specializes in healthcare which is not what I want my degree in (I’m still unsure what I want to major in) so I won’t be going back there.

    I’m so embarrassed but I don’t know how college works at all. I really want to go back to school so I can find a job and make a living wage, but my stupidity is a huge mountain I need to cross. When I try to ask people for help they assume I know way more than I do and their explanations go way over my head. Like, oh, just pick a school with a good reputation that works for you. But… How do I do that?.

    Please forgive my enormous ignorance.

    1. Start Here*

      What are some ideas that you have regarding your major? Even if you are not sure, you did mention healthcare wasn’t it.

      What part of the country are you looking for the school to be located in? Public or private school? When do you plan on starting school, if accepted? That also determines deadlines. I have graduated college 10 years ago but I distinctly remember the application deadlines for the Fall semester were due before Xmas the previous year and you “selected” your school of choice by May 1st. (If it still works the same way, Fall 2019 freshmen would have had to have their applications sent in by December 2018)

    2. Teapot Painter*

      Step 1: Figure out what job you really want. A random degree just to have a degree will probably not work out if everything is nebulous. And if you are unsure of what you really want to do, think about the skills you DO have, and find out what jobs apply those skills. If you are really unsure of any of that, take a Meyers-Briggs test to get started. The end of the results give a list of careers that fit your personality. Research those careers, and pick the one you think you could actually do. Then work backwards from there!

      Find out what degrees and/or certifications the job you want requires. Find out the order of operations to get said certificates if needed. Then research the closest colleges that offer those degrees. If it’s just one college, you won’t have a decision to make in that regard. Speak with an admissions counselor/rep, and go from there. If there are multiple college options, take a tour of a couple of them to see if you like the people who will be teaching your major, and if the college feels comfortable.

      Good luck, you can do this!

      1. Lily Rowan*

        On the flip side, you could start with the closest public college to you (because it’s likely to be the next cheapest after community college) and see what they offer, and then think about how it could fit into your future goals.

    3. StressedButOkay*

      It’s been ages since I went so I don’t have a lot of advice but I do have one piece – when researching colleges, make sure you’re looking at a nonprofit college and not a for-profit college. Many for-profit colleges/universities are simply there to make money – you’ll pay more and get less from it.

      Here’s a page that goes into the details. https://www.petersons.com/blog/for-profit-colleges-versus-nonprofit-colleges-what-you-need-to-know/

      And good luck – it’s never too late, especially in the world we live in where you can do it online if need be!

    4. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      How to college:
      1) pick a location
      2) research colleges in the area. Check wikipedia, which might have a list of colleges and universities in your area.
      3) pick what you want to study
      4) Check if any of those colleges/universities have programs you want
      5) If they don’t, change the area you’re looking at or what you want to study
      6) Narrow things down: how much does it cost? How easy it is to get to? Look at the course catalog for their current offerings (this will be online): are the hours of the classes good for you? If you only want night classes, but they only offer day classes, strike them from your list.
      7) Optional: Go visit. See how easy it is to get around.
      8) Once you have some colleges you want, apply to them. This will likely cost money, and you will not get the fees back. Only apply to places you want to go to.
      9) They will at some point tell you if you’re accepted or not to the college.
      10) Once you’re accepted, enroll and pick your classes (they will tell you how to do this). This will be from an online course catalog. They will probably not offer everything every semester that you will need, so you’ll have to play on taking Course A in Semester A, and Course B in Semester B. Some courses will have prerequisites that you need to take before taking Course A, but often you can get this waived if you ask.
      11) At some point in this, you’re gonna have to write them checks for tuitions/endless fees. :(
      12) After you are enrolled in classes, you can get book lists or materials or anything you will need to bring to it. Buy them. The school may have an official book store, which will stock the books, but you can get them cheaper elsewhere.
      13) Day one of class, you should get a syllabus which will spell out the course requirements, when tests are, etc.
      14) Talk to your professor if you have questions about things.
      15) Do the work as outlined in the course.
      16) At the end of the semester, you get a grade in the course. If you complete it, you get course credits that count toward your graduation. You will need a certain amount to graduate.
      17) Repeat semesters until you’re done.

      1. Alice*

        I want to add 18) take full advantage of the wrap-around services that colleges provide to students. Use the student affairs office, go to the events, go to office hours and ask questions, use the library (the services, not just the physical building). Even if you decide to do an online program, there are probably online writing tutors, etc., who work for the college and can work with you for free.

        1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

          That’s a great one! Yeah, colleges come with a lot of ancillary stuff and services and it’s great to take advantage of them.

          …Except the career advice place, which can be full of Bad Advice.

      2. gecko*

        Great breakdown! Hopefully you’re in the US or the following won’t be helpful haha.

        For 8 and 9, each college will likely use the Common App–a common application for most schools–and add a few writing questions or document requirements. They should have links and explanations of what they need on their websites. Often they’ll need letters of recommendation (so figure out who you’ll ask to write yours), transcripts sent directly from the institution (so call your high school to make sure they still have your records and what their process is for sending transcripts), and standardized testing scores.

        Start looking at application requirements around September the year before you want to go–if you want to go first semester (starting September) of 2021, start looking September of 2020. If you have a few schools picked out and you haven’t taken standardized testing like SAT and ACT, and the school requires it for non-traditional students, look into taking those tests.

        At some point in the process, around the time of application, you’ll have to fill out a FAFSA, which is a federal form to determine how much financial aid you qualify for.

        Financial aid is a consideration for point 6 of rolling’s breakdown. Financial aid comes in a few parts. First, the school will often grant you some financial aid if you need it. Iirc “need-based” financial aid is a good keyword to look out for. This comes in two flavors and a combination of the two flavors: grants and loans. If you get a school with grant-based financial aid, that’s _great_: they’re basically giving you a discount on tuition. If loans (or partially loans), the school is lending you money. For traditional (I don’t know about non-traditional) students this may involve work-study–so you get a small job on campus as part of this deal.

        Past that chunk of aid, there’s the remaining amount of money you’re responsible for. In that chunk, there is a certain amount of money that you can get state or federal loans on. Some of these could be subsidized, so they don’t accrue interest while you’re at school, some are unsubsidized. These loans are desirable.

        Past that, for any remaining tuition or living expenses, are private loans. These loans are undesirable and usually high-interest, but may be unavoidable.

        The FAFSA is the form that generates this breakdown of how much the school is going to give you, and how much federal or state loan programs will lend you.

        FINALLY…once you’re in a college, they _want_ you to stay there. Cynically they want your tuition $$ and contribution to grad statistics, less cynically you’re now part of the community and they want to support you. It can be a great experience. Good luck!!!

      3. Sandman*

        I’m late to respond to this, but I would just add not to rule out local private colleges – I don’t mean for-profit schools; private colleges are usually one-location and often smaller. Their tuitions will be a lot higher than public universities, but their financial aid packages can be much more generous as well – a friend of mine was paying less at our private college than her brother was at an inexpensive public university because of this.

        You will probably also need to take the SAT/ACT at some point if you haven’t already. I don’t have any advice about that; just something to add to your checklist to Google. :)

        You can do this.

    5. StressedButOkay*

      I do have one piece – when researching colleges, make sure you’re looking at a nonprofit college and not a for-profit college. Many for-profit colleges/universities are simply there to make money – you’ll pay more and get less from it.

      Here’s a page that goes into the details. https://www.petersons.com/blog/for-profit-colleges-versus-nonprofit-colleges-what-you-need-to-know/

      And good luck – it’s never too late, especially in the world we live in where you can do it online if need be!

    6. Nessun*

      I’m not in the US, so I won’t comment on college research, but I will say – Congrats to you for deciding this is something you want to do! I’m sure people will have excellent suggestions for how to go about it.

      Good for you, knowing what to do to improve your own situation (including reaching out for help here), and going for it. Best of luck!!

    7. Llellayena*

      If you’re still local to your high school, can you go back there to the guidance department and ask if they would be willing to coach a former student through the college selection process? They walk entire classes of uncertain students through the process so they would be equipped to help you figure out what you want AND have the “which college is best” resources. The community college you attended might have many of the same resources as well.

    8. Minerva McGonagall*

      -Check out O*Net, which is a free online tool where you can see jobs/future projections of growth/find out what major is needed for that specific job
      -Take a look at 16Personalities, which is an MBTI personality assessment. You can get a few ideas from there about what types of roles you may be strong in. I like this tool because it doesn’t give you a specific career, but helps you understand your personality which is really important in picking a major/job.
      -Make sure that you’re looking for a non-profit school, not a for-profit school
      -Check out the school’s website and social media pages. See if it’s somewhere you could picture yourself.
      -Reach out to admissions offices and see if you can get in on a tour or meet someone. Looking online is helpful in narrowing down, but meeting people and visiting the campuses can give you a better picture. Ask them what class schedules are like, requirements for different majors, etc.
      -If you are still unsure what you want to major in, but you have a general idea, look for a school that is larger and has a lot of majors. It is a lot easier to switch your major within one school than transferring.
      -Once you pick a school and go, get involved on campus and get to know people! It will help you stay accountable if there are people who know who you are and can help you if they see you need it. This is really important in a larger school setting.
      -Please don’t be embarrassed! There are many people who decide to go to college passed the “traditional” age.

    9. Natalie*

      Okay, well, you’re not stupid. You just don’t know about college, that’s actually a very small part of life.

      Since you mentioned a living wage I’m guessing you are probably a low income worker? Have you looked at any service orgs in your area that help low income and/or first generation students with the whole college process? One that I know of is College Possible, which is in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Portland, Philly, and Omaha. If that isn’t one of your cities, they may be able to direct you to a similar organization in your area.

    10. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Assuming you are in the US, the most economical option with the widest variety of subjects to study is likely to be the state university system of the state you are currently a resident of.

      Steps:
      1. Your state, what are the states colleges? Then group then from most to least selective (US News and World Report has reasonable data about this). Where do you fit GPA, test scores, etc? Apply to some that are a reach, some where you are in the middle, and some that seem like safeties.
      2. Do you need to do anything to apply? Retake SATs? You are probably too late for Fall 2019 but could try for spring or fall 2020.
      3. Course of study. Most 18 year olds don’t know what they want to do but you being older and non traditional, you should try to have an idea. Taking classes in ancient pottery isn’t going to be helpful unless you know you want to be an archaeologist. So have a career goal and come up with a rough plan of classes that fit the requirements for your major.
      4. Time frame – do you want to be a full time student and can you afford that? Are you trying to work and go to classes at night? Does the school have any resources targeting non traditional students on its websites?

      I honestly wouldn’t do the whole emotional approach to college of “where do I want to live? What’s the most beautiful quad?” The cheapest and likely best is State U with instate tuition. No amount of ivy is worth tens of thousands per year. You are doing this to improve your financial situation not worsen it which is a cold unfortunate fact but still a fact. Don’t take on any more debt than you have to.

    11. Lilysparrow*

      You aren’t stupid. You are just doing a new thing. That is something to be proud & excited about, not embarrassed by!

      Cheesesteak In Paradise makes some excellent points.

      You mentioned that your local community college isn’t an option. But do look into 2-year or junior colleges that may be part of your state system. They usually have lower tuition and more flexibility in class scheduling.

      Most 2-year schools offer Associate’s degrees (which may be enough to greatly improve your prospects, depending on the job you want). But many state school systems coordinate the 2-year and 4-year schools together. So you could take your introductory or pre-requisite classes at the less expensive/more flexible school, and then transfer to the 4-year school when you’re ready to take classes specific to your major.

      You can check before you enroll to see if the credits will transfer to a 4-year school.

      Another option for training and expanding your income & job prospects is vocational training. There are many lucrative industries, like utilities, manufacturing, and skilled trades, that are desperate for workers and willing to underwrite some or all of your training. They do not have the social prestige of white-collar college based jobs, but they have much higher starting salaries and pretty secure career paths.

      I am actually at a stage in life where I think the family & cultural obsession with college at any cost did me and my retirement fund a terrible disservice. I check the local Industrial Training resources fairly regularly, but I’m not healthy enough for the entry-level trades jobs in my area.

      Check out your state’s Department of Commerce – or sometimes it’s called Workforce Development or Industrial Training and Development – to see if there’s a program that interests you.

      Mike Rowe (of the show “Dirty Jobs”) has a foundation that helps with scholarships for skill training – look up MikeRoweWORKS.

      And again, don’t let unfamiliarity hold you back! The whole point of higher education is to have a student mindset and learn things you did not know before!

    12. Pam*

      I’m a university advisor. I was a returning/older student, and I advise lots of students who are currently in your shoes. You CAN do this and you aren’t alone.

      The advice others are giving is good. At my university, a public, not-for-profit school, a common path for many of our students is to start at a community college, to make it less expensive. Be sure to have a plan for transferring in mind, so you don’t take incorrect courses, and waste time.

      Good luck, and let us know how we can help!

    13. KX*

      When I went to college, there was an office for transfer and re-entry studets: adults who weren’t coming to college out of high school, who needed different help. Just start with the closest college to you and call them up. Say you are thinking of starting school and ask to make an appointment. You will get great information from that office that will be useful no matter where you end up applying. You aren’t committing to that school in any way by asking for help.

      If it is a state or public school, all the better, but a private school will be just as helpful.

    14. Anna Held*

      I’m sorry the community college didn’t work out. That would be my first suggestion — basically, do it as cheaply as possible, but at an accredited, known school. CCs also are used to first-generation students, older students, etc. I hope you can find a suitable branch of a state school near you.

      I second what everyone is saying about using the college’s own resources. There are lots of good suggestions right in this thread, but here’s the thing: you’re the student! You’re literally there because you don’t know stuff! l’d start by going in to Admissions and saying hey, I’ve no idea, can you walk me through the process and deadlines. That’s what they’re there for!

      Once in, use your tutoring center. Use your library. There are people there who can help. There are often library tours at the beginning of the year, or a virtual tour on their website.

      Don’t skip class if you can help it, and GO TO OFFICE HOURS. You can get a lot of extra help there. Don’t just ask about classwork, either — if your advisor isn’t helpful, ask a prof in your major (once you have one) what she suggests. Or ask for study tips. Don’t be shy — most people are in academia because they love what they teach and they want to help their students. Nothing is more frustrating than watching someone struggle and having them not reach out for help. Tell them you’re first gen, you know nothing about the system, and you’d value their help. Then take notes!

      READ THE DIRECTIONS. On your application. On your FAFSA (financial aid, God, read the directions, I hated that form.) Read your syllabus, which is the directions for the course. Read the instructions on exams and papers, too. Basically, read and re-read all directions everywhere, and ask if you don’t understand.

      Know deadlines — for classes, for registration, for payments, when you can withdrawal from classes without penalty, to sign up for a major, for graduation. Keep a good calendar. Deadlines will be listed on the university website or your syllabi.

      LOTS of information is on the university website. Read carefully the appropriate sections — right now, admissions and financial aid, plus majors and support for older students. They’ll probably have a campus map and information on parking, where to eat, everything.

      I’m sorry for writing a book. College might seem overwhelming, but it is a big deal. It’s a very expensive, life-changing experience, and you want to think it through and not screw up because you missed a scholarship deadline or something. It’s it’s own animal, and if you’re not familiar with it, it can be hard. But seriously, just ask for help. There are lots of people around whose job entails giving you that help, and they’ll be even more willing if they know you’re truly clueless and overwhelmed rather than just a slacker who thinks they’re too special to follow through.

      And save up for books now. Textbooks are crazy expensive.

      My last bit of advice — take some time to walk the campus. Take a tour. Not only will you feel more comfortable if you physically know where you’re going, allow yourself to visualize yourself here, in this place. Where you belong, because you’re working hard to get there and you’ve earned the right. Check out the music or theater productions you can get into cheap because of your school ID. Check out the discounts you can get with it in your town. Go to the library and marvel at all the books. Check out the clubs you’d like to join. College can be a lot of fun, too. Don’t let yourself be intimidated out of it. You’ve got this.

    15. ..Kat..*

      The first two years (of a four year college) are pretty similar regardless of major. Everyone has to have English, history, basic math, etc. So you can start on a degree even if you don’t know what you want to do yet. It’s okay not to know! Part of college for many of us was exploring our options.

      Google “starting college at 25” or “starting college as an adult.” To help get you started. Community college can be a good way to earn many of your basic credits (usually cheaper and have evening classes). Some colleges have resources for adult learners. Check them out.

      Make sure that the college you choose is non-profit.

      Many colleges have online courses that are convenient for adult learners.

      Good luck. You can do it.

    16. Hamburke*

      My daughter is a senior in high school. She’s just applied to colleges including my Alma mater. The application for that was personal info & demographics, linking her transcripts and a short 150 words or less essay. For real! I agonized over the 5 essays I wrote for the same school 20 years earlier! But no, we did a legacy recruitment event and they said things had changed…

      My advice to my daughter and her friends has been to figure out their interests and strengths to guide them to a general course of study (computers? Business? Science?) And then start looking at programs based on those. Then decide what their personal values and work ethic are and narrow down their search by that – for example, want to be close to home, very social/outgoing, like peer group work, need one-on-one time with instructor, independent project/research, must have Chick-fil-A on campus, etc.

  74. Dreamer*

    Advice Needed: An old coworker turned close friend recently told me about a great position she applied and is actively interviewing for ( in a company I tried to get into a few years ago). Although we have similar specialized experience (she had a masters and double my own experience ) I decided to apply for another more jr role as foot in the door measure. Long story short, they decide not to hire coworker and rerouted my application for ” her Role”. Should I turn it down? Request a different position? or just go for it? I value her friendship but I didnt even tell her i applied for the other role, not honestly expecting a call back.

    1. Go For It*

      I wouldn’t mention anything to her at all unless you actually got the job. Besides, you never know what changed at Foot in Door Company for them to consider you for “her role” – they made have decided that it needed less experience etc.

    2. Anxiety Woman*

      Go for it. Although I’d mention to her that you applied for another role and was referred to the one that she applied for. In her shoes, while I’d be disappointed that I didn’t get the job, I’d rather see the job go to someone that I like.

    3. Temperance*

      You should not turn down the position! Definitely talk to her and let her know that you applied for a different job, and were directed to this one.

      This sounds like a great opportunity for you, and you should take it.

    4. fposte*

      Are you interested in the job? That’s a key question I’m not hearing an answer to. If so, I’d just let your friend know that you’d applied so peripherally to a different job at Company you didn’t think it was worth mentioning, but they’ve just let you know that they’ve rerouted your application for the Llama Vexer position. You don’t think you’re that strong a candidate, but you wanted to let her know.

      It’s not “her role,” it’s just a job posting, so it’s fine for you to apply for it, and you really can’t ask the prospective employer for a new position just in case you have friendship dramas. If you want the job, go ahead and let the application go forward–just let your friend know.

      1. Dreamer*

        Yes, its a major step up in a top consulting firm both title wise and financially (and according to glassdoor it will pay 40-50% more)

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Of course you shouldn’t turn it down. You didn’t take this job from her. They decided not to hire her based on *her*, not on you. So tell her the truth – that you applied for a different position, but they want to consider you for this one instead. If she’s any kind of decent friend, she won’t be resentful. In fact, if you get hired, you might be able to pave the way for her coming onboard eventually.

    6. Bagpuss*

      no, you absolutely shouldn’t turn it down – go for it.
      At this stage, I’d mention to your friend that you applied to the company for a different job, and they have told you that they are considering you for posts other than the one you originally applied for.

    7. Dreamer*

      Thanks everyone! I think I may wait til after my interview on monday and tell her a applied at company

    8. Lilysparrow*

      Good heavens, go for it of course!

      If they already rejected her, it’s done. You turning down an opportunity isn’t going to benefit her in any way. And there is no relational loyalty aspect either – it’s a job, not a lover.

      There is no way you could “steal” a job from a better qualified person with double your experience. The hiring company changed its mind about the role.

      If you get an offer you’d accept, let her know. It would be wierd not to. But there’s nothing to feel bad about.

  75. Anxiety Woman*

    I feel like I’m being pushed out of my job. I’ve been with my current employer for about a decade, and I’ve been routinely promoted. However, in the last year the tide seems to have turned. I’m now in a panic because I can’t seem to find another job (despite the amazing job market) with similar pay (I’m mid-career and in mid-management), and I feel like the clock is ticking. Well and I get the 9th degree anytime I take any sort of time off.

    I’m now at a stage where I feel like I’m constantly on the verge of a nervous breakdown. But, I can’t afford to leave without another decent paying job lined up. I don’t think they’ll fire me, because they tend not to do that, instead they’ll just continue to make my life miserable.

    1. Sara without an H*

      OK, take a deep breath. I’ve been through this. You can do it.

      First off, congratulations for recognizing the truth of your situation. Lots of people would tell themselves that nothing was wrong, then react with shock until they were let go.

      First, review everything in the AAM archives about resumes and cover letters, then take a hard and critical look at yours.

      Then think carefully about the kinds of jobs you’d be interested, and map your existing skills onto those. Are you willing to change industries? Relocate? Would you be willing to take a pay cut for an otherwise good opportunity? It may help to reduce the anxiety if you have worked out some of those issues in your own head.

      How’s your network? Review your contacts and let them know that you’re looking for a different opportunity. (Don’t mention that you think you’re being forced out. You’re looking for new challenges. Repeat as necessary.)

      Then do whatever you need in terms of self-care. (I dislike that expression, but it’s a thing.) Review what you’re doing in terms of sleep, diet, exercise, caffeine, and alcohol consumption, and make adjustments as needed. If you have a therapist you see regularly, be sure to discuss this with her.

      Lastly, I strongly recommend that you pay down any consumer debt you may have (beware of retail therapy!), and build up a “go to Hell” fund. Having a cash reserve will do a lot towards reducing your anxiety.

      Good luck!

    2. Sara without an H*

      Hi, Anxiety Woman — I’ve been there. You can do this.

      It’s good that you’ve recognized the truth of your own situation — there’s no future for you at the company you’ve given ten years to. Lots of people stay in denial until they’re actually fired.

      First, review everything in the AAM archives about resumes and cover letters, then take a hard, critical look at yours.

      Think carefully about what kind of job you’d actually be willing to do. Do you want to stay in management? Change industries? Would you be willing to relocate? Take a salary cut for the right opportunity? Think hard about this, then map your skills to the kind of job you’re looking for. You probably have more transferable skills than you think.

      How’s your network? Start putting the word out that you’re looking for a new opportunity. (Note: do not say you’re being forced out. You’re looking for a new challenge.)

      Then do whatever you need to do in terms of self-care. (I hate that expression, but it describes a real thing.) Review what you’ve been doing in terms of sleep, exercise, diet, caffeine, and alcohol consumption, and make adjustments accordingly. If you see a therapist, be sure to discuss this with her.

      You may also want to prioritize paying down any consumer debt you have (beware of retail therapy!) and building up a “Go to Hell” fund. Having a cash reserve will do a lot to make you feel better.

      Good luck!

      1. Anxiety Woman*

        One of the biggest hurdles that I have is that I’m in a very niche industry and relocation at this time isn’t really a possibility due to other life factors. I have no network that is helpful (which I am sure is part of the issue). Plus, because I need to stay in the same general location, I’m probably going to need to try and see if I can find a position in different industry. Reviewing the archives is a good idea.

        1. Anna Held*

          Sara’s advice is perfect. I’d just reiterate that you should take a hard look at your budget and see what you really need to live on, and how much of a pay cut you could take. You might not need to! But it happens, there are too few jobs at a higher level in your area, etc.

          Definitely brush up on skills that might help in another industry. Network if you can, like a conference for a related field. Apply to stretch jobs then forget about them (Alison’s happy surprise advice). And take time to take care of yourself to relieve your stress — exercise, family time, alone time, whatever you need. It’ll make your situation more bearable. Good luck!

  76. TryingToReadHere*

    I’ve had problems with guys interrupting me while I’m reading books (on public transit, in cafeterias, in waiting rooms, etc.). Once in a while they’ve read the book or claim to be interested in reading it for specific reasons, but usually it’s just “What are you reading?”, comments about reading, or general attempts to start a conversation. In cafeterias, sometimes they ask if they can sit at my table, and then they want to chat. I don’t enjoy small talk with non-friends/coworkers in general, and it’s especially annoying when this happens at work as I don’t want to waste my unpaid lunch time chatting when I could be reading and unwinding.

    So, in the context of trying to read during lunch at work, what’s a good way to respond when I’m interrupted? I want to say, “Sorry, my lunch break is the only time I get to read through the week so I’m not up for chatting,” but I imagine they won’t take that well since they’re probably under the delusion that they’re being friendly or saving me from being lonely.

    1. Four lights*

      Ugh. This is the worst. I think some people just can’t conceive of reading as an activity and think they must be saving you from boredom. I think you have a good phrase there, just keep repeating it until people get the picture. You could also try a long pause, then, “Wait, did you just say something to me? I’m in the middle reading so I’m not paying attention.”

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        It’s ironic that they are trying to save me from boredom by forcing me into boring small talk.

        Emphasizing that I’m not paying attention to them because I’m busy reading is a good idea–might help them realize I’m not an attentive audience.

    2. Anon.*

      I think your phrasing works! If it feels rude, you can provide a false deadline as an explanation like, “Sorry! I’m trying to finish the book by Friday so I can return it to the library!”

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        A false deadline is a good idea. If I have a book I actually own with me instead of a library book, then I can tell them about how I have to finish the book before by Friday to keep up with my goal to read one book a year.

        If they keep bothering me, then it’s like, “Why is it so important to you that I not finish my book in time?”

    3. CatCat*

      That sounds super annoying. When I want to be left alone, I put on headphones. I don’t even play anything on them. I just have them on and pretend I can’t hear others.

        1. TryingToReadHere*

          Yeah, I’ve had guys tap my shoulder, wave a hand in front of my face, or start knocking on the table to get my attention when I pretended I couldn’t hear them while wearing headphones. So headphones do not discourage all of them. :(

          1. Lilysparrow*

            The phrases you need here are, “I *beg* your pardon???!!!”

            And/or “What on Earth is the matter with you?”

          2. Dr. Anonymous*

            That sort or egregious behavior buys them a loud, startled shriek, and a “what on earth are you doing?” And then, in response to whatever lame answer, “oh, that was so startling. I think I’d like to just get back to my book now, thank you.”

      2. AMA Long-time Lurker*

        Same as Lily – I have been:
        -Sleeping/napping with my eyes closed
        -With headphones on
        -With a book in my lap
        And a man has WOKEN ME UP to say “Crazy weather today.”

    4. Nanc*

      Julia Sugarbaker knows who you are, Ray Don . . . https://youtu.be/P7xS54IGEGI

      I want to print up cards with the whole speech on it and just hand them out when someone interrupts my reading. That probably wouldn’t be a good idea with your coworkers but you could at least call them Ray Don in your head.

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        “Trust me when I tell you that you have completely miss-assessed the situation at this table…”

        OMG OMG OMG. That was beautiful and hilarious and so true!!!!!!!

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        I originally thought I should start with a “sorry” so I’ll seem less rude… But I’ve been thinking about it since I posted and it seems stupid to be apologizing to someone who was being rude to me (interrupting people who are reading or are otherwise preoccupied so that you can chat at them is rude). So I think I’ll just skip the “sorry” and let them be unhappy and think I’m rude.

    6. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, tough shit to those guys. You don’t owe them anything. I would just shut them down as quickly as possible and go back to reading. “Hey, what are you reading?” ::show the cover, keep reading:: “Oh, what’s it about?” “Just people” ::go back to reading::

      Ugh, that makes me so mad!!

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        I’ve considered telling them I’m reading a book on something they probably would be uncomfortable discussing (like the history of castration), but I’m afraid I could get in trouble for that somehow.

    7. A Non E. Mouse*

      Them: “What are you reading?”

      Me: Nothing now, you’ve interrupted me.

      I like a good blank stare too.

      I’ve found it’s best to leave work when I want to read uninterrupted because some people just cannot help themselves. Sit in your car if you drive, go to the park if it’s nice, hide in a conference room that’s not being used, etc.

      1. TryingToReadHere*

        Hiding or leaving the building is a good idea, it’s just something I can’t do right now. (The conference rooms are always full since there’s only a few of them, no nearby parks, I don’t want to be in my car during extreme summer or winter temperatures.)

        I wish employers offered quiet rooms or areas for people who just wanted to be left alone in silence while working or taking a break.

    8. Lumen*

      Take your internal pressure to be nice and polite down by several notches.

      Appropriate responses when interrupted while reading:

      *glance up, thin smile, acknowledge other human exists, return to book*
      “Mm-hmm.” or “Hi.” or similar *without looking up*
      *blink, slightly overblown look of being distracted* What was that? *they repeat themselves* Oh. *thin smile, return to book*

      Those are all first-pass “I am not paying attention to you. You are interrupting me. Go away.” responses. Second-pass (if they sit near you, keep trying to get your attention, etc) would be more like:

      “I’m reading.”
      “I’m on my break.”
      “Excuse me. *return to book*”

      All of these should be delivered as tersely as you can manage. The implication should be “I’M reading. YOU’RE interrupting.” and “I’m on my BREAK, YOU are added labor.” and “Excuse YOU, actually.”

      You can round up or round down on the thin smiles and adjust your tone of voice depending on how much it matters if the dude in question gets huffy. But unless this is the CEO of your company or your boss we’re talking about, you do not have to be nice. Let them think you’re rude. Let them mutter under their breath as they leave, so long as they leave. Don’t let the word ‘sorry’ leave your mouth for the sake of politeness.

      And if heaven forbid they TOUCH YOU, you are 100% in the right to recoil physically, look at them like they grew a second head, and (if you want to maintain Politeness), a louder-than-necessary: “No thank you.”

      1. nonegiven*

        No thank you? No way.

        What makes you think it’s OK to touch me without my permission? Don’t!

    9. Lilysparrow*

      I think even that explanation is much longer than it needs to be.

      My #1 response if interrupted while reading is “What?” Usually followed by either, “Huh?” or “Excuse me?” Or both.

      Now, this is sincere for me because I’m slow on re-entry to the real world. But it’s remarkably effective.

      It is also 100 percent polite and okay to tell someone “No thank you” if they ask whether they can join you. Or get up and leave.

      I mean it sucks that you would need to move. They should be the one to go away. But a brief “Excuse me,” and changing seats has also proved remarkably effective.

      Now, if your goal is to Win Friends And Influence People, or become known around work as That Personable and Charming Young Lady Everyone Loves To Chat Up, this approach will not serve you well.

      It will get you left alone, as long as you are in a safe place and not dealing with crazy people or drunken louts.

  77. Martina*

    Today in “am I being precious or……”

    This job made me do a one way video interview. The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I feel about it and if I was not on unemployment (regretting quitting my old job to study abroad more and more each day now, sigh) and basically forced to jump through whatever hoop an employer lays out, I would refuse.

    So basically, it would flash questions and I had to basically record myself talking directly to the camera answering them.

    It really rubbed me the wrong way because I feel like it means employers have a chance to suss me out and ask questions of me, but I am not being given a chance to suss them out or as them my questions. It gives me that vibe of “we will make you grovel for a job but don’t care to answer any of your questions”. I also feel like it basically says “we can not even spare 10 minutes to speak with you and have a conversation with you” to do a phone screen if they want to narrow down candidates.

    And I think it also gives more of a chance to discriminate against things like sex, age, appearance etc. Yes, that can happen in a face to face interview, but at that point, since they have had you come down to their offices, 99.99% of the time they at least go through with it and give you the 15 minutes of their time, in which time, you might change their mind about you. With this, they can look at you for 5 seconds, decide you’re “too fat” or “too ethnic” or whatever and not even watch what you recorded.

    Also, a couple of the questions were things like “what is more important to you? client satisfaction or adhering to company policy every time” but without any of the context that you usually get an interview to get a feel for how they want that answered (like “our clients always come first” or “the most important thing for us is adhering to policy to avoid legal issues”) or w/e.

    Am I being precious because I regret doing it because I know I came across as a bumbling loser because it was the most awkward thing I have ever had to do, or is this a effed up hiring practice?

    2. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      I would not do this interview, for every reason you’ve listed. When I’m being interviewed, I want to be able to ask questions back, especially if the questions are inane, I’d like to ask for clarification.

    3. PB*

      No, you’re not being precious, and yes, it’s an effed up hiring practice. It’s asking you to devote time, without them giving you any in return. They’re evaluating you, without giving you an opportunity to evaluate them, ask questions, meet them, etc. And, as you note, there’s a risk of bias.

      Basically, your assessment is dead on.

    4. fposte*

      I think those suck for the reasons you state, and they’re also inefficient (it’s a lot easier to skim a resume than a video). But it also sounds from previous posts here like they’re an established thing in some quarters, so it may not be the outlier annoyance you’re seeing it as.

    5. irene adler*

      Absolute evil, in my opinion.
      There’s a Wall Street Journal article (dated 28 Nov 2018) that discusses all the analyzing that these one-way videos are used to ‘size up’ the candidates.
      They measure the micro-emotions registered in the face. Then compare these measurements to successful employees working in the position they are hiring for. The more closely you match the measurements of these successful employees, the better your chances of being hired.

      Doesn’t even matter what the content of your responses were.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s just bad science. How many employees are still interview-nervous (and expressing all the related micro-emotions) after a few months on the job? It’s putting quantification on something that is practically meaningless, and is no more useful than “I just had a feeling about them” as a way to hire someone.

        More likely, they’re assessing age, gender, race/ethnicity, appearance, and all those things without giving the person any chance at creating a rapport with a human interviewer, or a way to track whether any of those things contributed to not going further in the process.

        1. AnotherIntrovert*

          I’m guessing it depends on the individual call-centre?

          I was rejected from one because I had a master’s degree and would “have a foot out the door before you have even sat down” in their words (and to be honest, they were right. I wanted it as a stop-gap job, not a career), but was hired by another one a few weeks later who didn’t mind I had a degree.

          Although I do agree that it was likely because OP was not a “salesperson”. OP, you might do better applying for call centres looking for “service” and “solutions” consultants rather than “sales” consultants. I am not a sales person either, and I did fine when I was hired to be the person whose job was to update people’s mailing address and direct debit details but I would have done awfully when it was my job to SELL people something.

        2. irene adler*

          suggest googling “using ai for job interviews”
          You’ll find a bunch of articles about how those video interviews are evaluated.

  78. Accounting Otaku*

    I figure you’re the crew that would appreciate this the most. Our workplace has had the problem recently of people taking forever in the bathrooms just loitering and playing on their phones creating a line. The solution they finally chose: they cranked up the AC in the restrooms so now it’s FREEZING in there. No one wants to spend any more time in there than necessary. My boss was livid this morning.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Passive aggressive level: icy. xD

      We have a problem of the people working at the company upstairs coming down to poop in our bathrooms. My boss is peeved by them using up our precious supply of TP (how dare they use stuff he spends money on!) so he’s put up a sign by the door that says the bathrooms are for our staff only.

    3. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      That is funny and effective. One reason I love staying over at my BF’s place is because he has a heater in there and a warm bathroom in the morning is a wonderful thing.

    5. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I once had a summer job at a company where the lighting in the ladies room was so bad that you could barely see yourself in the mirror well enough to comb your hair. Putting on lipstick was impossible. I asked one of the (male) supervisors why this was, and he said that if the ladies room was properly lit, the girls [sic] would spend all day there and never do any work.

    6. ArtK*

      That’s a time-honored technique for making sure that meetings are short. That and removing chairs and making folks stand — not too sure that would work in a bathroom, though!

  79. Anon for This*

    The financial institution that I work at gave my sister and her husband a loan last year. They were kind of borderline, and it wouldn’t have surprised me if the loan had gotten declined. But they took into the consideration that the fact that they were my family, and they got the money. Fast forward to now, and my sister and brother-in-law are now divorced. My sister truly does not have the money to pay it–she has a part-time, minimum wage job and her ex-husband is not paying his child support. I have not spoken to my ex-brother-in-law since the divorce, so I know next to nothing about his financial situation, but he isn’t paying the loan either. I have paid it twice myself at this point because I felt obligated to, since their getting approved was partially based on the fact that are my family. But I can’t afford to keep paying it–I have my own bills–and its delinquent yet again. My boss hasn’t brought it up to me, but I’m afraid she will. Another one of my coworkers has a cousin who is delinquent on a loan, and my boss keeps asking my coworker to collect from him. I’m embarrassed that all of this has happened, but at the same time, I don’t want to collect from my sister. Or her ex. Their divorce was dramatic and terrible, and I don’t want to get involve. What should I say to my boss if she asks me collect from them?

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Another one of my coworkers has a cousin who is delinquent on a loan, and my boss keeps asking my coworker to collect from him.

      WTF, you’re not their collections department. Your boss shouldn’t mention this to you at all, the conflict is too great. Do they want you to start breaking kneecaps, too?

      Don’t pay the loan. It’s on the borrowers. You didn’t guarantee the loan, you just provided some kind of unmentioned character reference. It’s on the bank to do due diligence and this is part of doing business.

      People default on loans. It happens. Your boss should not be going after employees to handle this with their family members.

      1. valentine*

        Headline: Finance employee KNRs nibling to recoup loan
        Assuming family will pay is the most unsound approach possible. It is worse than leaving the barn door open and the horse saddled. If anything, your employer should have measures in place to avoid conflicts of interest (heh). The debt should be part of the divorce proceedings, so it’s a judge’s domain now. Don’t pay again and learn to let go of the guilt. Tell your boss you can’t be involved. Does she own the place? Is it her money?

    2. New Year, New Me*

      Do you have an HR to go to? It should be obvious it is a conflict of interest to have you collecting/working for your family; it’s not appropriate that your boss ask that of you. And it seems a bad business practice for your institution to give them the money because their family. Were you actively vouching for them or did they just know the relationship and gave it instant approval?

      You should try to remove yourself from the situation as much as possible, including not paying the loan anymore. This could really drag you down at work and in your own financial up keeping.

    3. I don’t post often*

      Assuming you are at a small financial institution? I work at a large one and literally no one in my family will ever be given a loan because they are family. Is the loan collateralized? I understand your sister can’t pay it but is she in danger of losing the house or car or other property? While it sucks you could possibly get her to sell the asset to pay off the loan. Or otherwise explain that she is in danger of losing the (whatever it is). I would think about what your institution normally does when someone doesn’t pay- do normal employees like you act as collections? If so… well not sure what to do, but if not and boss comes to you, I would hold up the normal collections process and state you feel it must be followed. That’s just my two cents. I’m so sorry you are in this situation.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’m kind of thrown by the “they’re related to an employee so we let them skate by on qualifications” thing. Did your employer tell you at the time that your relationship mattered and ask you about it, or did you only hear about it after the fact?

        Especially if it’s the latter, I’d say you can stand on protocol: “I wasn’t involved in offering the loan, and I don’t think it’s appropriate for me to be involved in collecting it. Of course I understand if as lenders the institution does what it needs to do.”

        1. Anon for This*

          They didn’t come out right and say that the relationship mattered, but I think that they entered into the situation with more trust because of the relationship. If that makes sense.

      2. Anon for This*

        Unfortunately, it is unsecured. So the only really options for us are to garnish wages. My sister really has no wages to garnish. Ex-husband does, but I want no involvement in that.

        1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

          Then this is the institution’s problem, not yours. If they try to make it yours, then there’s a problem with the institution and that’s important info to have, both as an employee and as a relative of a borrower.

        2. Observer*

          What you want or don’t want is really irrelevant here.

          If your department does collections, then you do whatever normal part of collections normally falls to you. If that means starting garnishment proceedings for your former BIL, that’s what you do, “want” or “don’t want”. But, if as I suspect, you’re not the one who normally does this stuff, all you need to say is “This is not my job. You guys do whatever you normally do.” And if they go ahead and garnish ex-BIL’s wages, so be it.

          The bottom line is that your boss has no business asking you to use your family connection to collect on a loan, but you also have not business to get involved in what they do and whether they garnish ex-BIL’s wages.

    4. Natalie*

      I’m not completely up on my financial institution regulations but this sounds shady as hell and maybe illegal? They shouldn’t be talking to relatives about a customer’s account, much less pressuring their employees to pay or collect a relative’s bills. Is there some kind of ombudsman or compliance officer you could talk to?

    5. Lilysparrow*

      You should say “I am not a cosigner on this loan, and it is inappropriate for me to get involved in this.”

      Although you should check and make sure that your previous payments don’t obligate you to assume some responsibility. I wouldn’t think so, but there are some truly terrible laws (or lack of laws) around lending in this country, and you should go over the loan agreement with a fine-tooth comb if you can get a copy.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Please stop paying this loan. It is not your responsibility.

      Also, why are you assuming responsibilities like this? I did this in my past. Therapy and boundaries have done wonders for my quality of life.

  80. KatieHR*

    Just a vent. I have worked at several different companies and they all seem to operate in ways I don’t always understand. For example, my current company says that they want you to grow and promote from within all the time. But…..they really don’t. They like to hire from outside people who end up not being a good fit for the position. I just don’t understand some hiring decisions that companies make and don’t make. Because I do a good job at what I do, they don’t want to promote me…they just want to keep me where I am. It really sucks.

    1. irene adler*

      That’s because the company isn’t interested in your best interests.
      No one will EVER act in your best interests except for you. This is especially true in business (despite what HR tells you).

      You need to promote yourself -if that’s what you want.

  81. Natalie*

    So a week or so before Christmas I accepted another job offer and gave notice at my current, not great, job. (I gave a long notice so I’m only about halfway through it.)

    I keep having the strangest conversations with people, where they come into my office, partially close the door, and we have a whispered conversation about whether or not I’m leaving because this place is bananas. A reasonably high up guy that I don’t work with closely just randomly told me “I’m so envious of you” in the hallway. Hey folks, the economy is really, really strong in this city, and Current Company is very middle of the road, or maybe even low end of average, as far as pay and benefits are concerned. You too could be looking for a new job! You don’t have to live vicariously through me!

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’ve experienced both that and it’s sister reaction of “You’re the traitor who is abandoning us because you’re too weak to cope with [bullshit].”

      It’s gotta be a lighter version of Stockholm syndrome, right? Lord knows I’ve stayed in toxic jobs for too long because my self esteem was too crushed to think about trying to do better.

    2. Seifer*

      I had that issue too when I left my last company! One guy straight up told me, “I’m glad you’re leaving this hellhole, but I’m upset with you for being able to get out of this hellhole.” I can’t remember what I said but I remember thinking to myself, “you have a degree in mechanical engineering and ten years of experience, you could totally leave easier than I could!”

      Another one of my coworkers told me that a lot of people are held hostage by that place because they have children or spouses that work jobs that don’t pay as well or they themselves don’t have a high enough level of education to find a better place. The medical benefits were really good; zero employee contribution, totally employer funded, covers 90% after a deductible of like, $800 for family plan. So I get it. But at the same time I’m like. I didn’t see shackles, you are all free to leave also?

      1. Natalie*

        Honestly, if we had some kind of Cadillac insurance or something I would understand it, but we really, really don’t. I’m making a lateral move to a nonprofit (from a for profit), and I’m not even taking a pay cut. Our insurance and PTO are aggressively average, and our 401K match is actually a little stingy – it’s not just a straight X% as it was described to me, it’s “up to” X% depending on how the company has been doing that year AND you have to have been employed from Jan 1-Dec 31 of the year or else it’s zero.

        The only thing unusually good here is that the expected workweek is low – our “official” hours are under 40 and in between closes people routinely only work 30. Oh, also, people seem to have nothing to do, but given how depressing I found that I don’t really think it’s a perk!

  82. Cat*

    When job applications ask for reference letters that are hand-signed when you apply, how do you all handle this? Why do employers need to get all of these extra documents at this early stage anyway? Does anyone have any insight on this? Thanks!

    1. Kathleen_A*

      That is not a standard requirement in most industries/work places – or at least it hasn’t been for SEVERAL decades. I’ve heard (mostly through AAM) that this is done in some professions, e.g., law. Is this a standard in your industry? Because I haven’t been asked for an actual letter of reference for literally 30 years.

      1. Cat*

        I am not often asked for one in my field (Libraries) but usually when it happens, it is from a small public library or local government office. Most places may ask for references but don’t bother checking them until after they are seriously considering hiring you. People don’t have time to write letters for job applications so when I do come across it, I usually skip applying for the job. I wondered if there was better way to deal with it without bothering someone to write a letter for me that no one will probably read XD

        1. Kathleen_A*

          I think if it’s a requirement, you probably have to include it…even though chances are nobody (even your prospective new boss) will actually read it. Yep, a total waste of time, but I think it’s probably just one of those hoops you have to jump through. Somebody has set up a system in which this is a box that probably has to be checked – why is one of those unsolved and unsolvable mysteries.

          For what it’s worth, letters of reference don’t actually have to be long. Even back in the day, they were usually just a couple of paragraphs. More in-depth reference checks were done by phone – just as they are now.

  83. Caroline*

    I am a new graduate looking for work in my field, but in the meantime, am willing to do whatever to keep my Netflix on and clothes on my back. The agency that manages me being on unemployment (I know. I feel dirty about this) is making me apply to a call centre that rejected me after interviewing me a few months ago. I think the reason I was rejected was a combination of being overqualified (having a degree basically makes you overqualified to these place right?) and because I didn’t come across enough as a “pushy sales person” like I think they wanted. I am not a pushy sales person, so I will not be able to give you the kind of answer you want for something like “what would you do if the person you are talking to has already said they are not interested 3 times in a new product but you are behind on your sales targets for the week and we need you to make those sales” because my answer is “accept that they have already said no, you idiots?”.

    Are they going to look down at me for reapplying? If they do decide to re interview me, how do I handle it if “why did you reapply after we already rejected you” comes up when I am not a bad liar and can not pull off “well I am just dying to sell people mobile phone plans, it is my life’s passion” and sound sincere.

    I’d be willing to do it for a few months. I’d probably suck at it, but something better would hopefully come up quickly.

    1. Alice*

      I don’t have advice about sales, but I saw you say you feel dirty about this — I wish that weren’t true. The social safety net exists for this purpose. A lot of people (and sometimes even the people running the agency) might think that you should be ashamed of needing and accepting support, but I don’t. I haven’t used the safety net yet, but no one knows what might happen in the future — anyone can lose a job or become disabled and find themselves relying on social services, maybe for a short time or maybe for a long time. So, I hope that you don’t feel bad about being on unemployment.
      Good luck!

      2. Zweisatz*

        +1

        humans depend on each other in a lot of ways and I expect a functioning society to provide for anybody who cannot provide for themselves at the moment (or ever).

    2. WellRed*

      Pretty sure lots of call center workers have degrees, what they don’t have are…jobs that are not at call centers. They rejected you because you aren’t a salesperson and it likely showed.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Agreed! My sibling has a master’s degree and worked in a call center for about 4 months while job-hunting.

        It’ll be awkward, but – since it sounds like you don’t really need a good relationship with this random call center – I’d just reapply if that’s the requirement from the unemployment agency (and they know you were already turned down for the job). If they decide to interview you or choose to ask why you reapplied, you can honestly tell them you’re still job hunting. They might think you’re ridiculous, but… oh well, I guess?

        1. AnotherIntrovert*

          I’m guessing it depends on the individual call-centre?

          I was rejected from one because I had a master’s degree and would “have a foot out the door before you have even sat down” in their words (and to be honest, they were right. I wanted it as a stop-gap job, not a career), but was hired by another one a few weeks later who didn’t mind I had a degree.

          Although I do agree that it was likely because OP was not a “salesperson”. OP, you might do better applying for call centres looking for “service” and “solutions” consultants rather than “sales” consultants. I am not a sales person either, and I did fine when I was hired to be the person whose job was to update people’s mailing address and direct debit details but I would have done awfully when it was my job to SELL people something.

  84. Cafe au Lait*

    A colleague in a different department wrote a condescending email to me about an issue I contacted him over. (Facilities issue). While doing his due diligence he called my office and spoke to my coworker about the issue. (Lockbox needs constant fiddling for the lock to work). My coworker told him the issue was solved.

    What my colleague doesn’t know is that my coworker doesn’t deal with the issue. She doesn’t fix the lockbox when it’s loose, she’ll just wait until someone else comes along to twiddle with it. She doesn’t have all the info but will sound like she does. I’d really like to email my coworker back and say “Dude, you’re condescending. Get your facts straights.”

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      How annoying. I’d reply “I’m confused – Coworker isn’t involved in the lockbox at all, so there’s no reason to ask her about it. The issue is not resolved, so please do not close this ticket/reopen this ticket/whatever verbage you need to use here.” (And I’d also ask Coworker to pass all these calls to me, since I’m the Lockbox Person.)

  85. College Recommendation Letters*

    Tips from high school teachers or anyone involved with college admissions?

    Husband is an 11th grade teacher, so he inevitably gets asked to write college recommendation letters for his students.

    As a newish teacher, he wants to ensure that what he’s writing is on par with what others do! He’d ask the school’s guidance counselors but they’re worst and super unhelpful.

    How can he make sure his recommendations help his students stand out?

    1. School Inclusion Specialist*

      Most of my colleagues use a standard template and ask students to fill out a survey (what school the rec is for, when it’s due, some ?s about school and extra curricular activities) .

      I think he needs to manage his expectations in regards to the power of the rec letter and the amount of time that is actually spent reading the letters. If there is something truly exceptional about a student that wouldn’t otherwise come through in the application, he should write about it. But as much as he cares about his students, they need to be able to show consistency and that means having an application that stands out in all sections, not just the recs.

      1. College Recommendation Letters*

        Certainly agree. But these kids are already coming from a disadvantage (low income, first-gen, ESL, etc.) They don’t know how to present themselves to colleges, or what they need to do for college apps at all. Unfortunately, the school doesn’t provide them much support. Husband does what he can, when he can. If rec letters is one area he can help, then by golly he’s going to try his hardest! – even if it’ll help only minimally.

        1. Doodle*

          I would say, be able to be very specific about the student, using a good detailed description to illustrate the skill or personal quality the student has. Don’t just say Ophelia is a classroom leader, give an example. If Laertes has changed over the year, talk about that. Talk about specific academic skills and accomplishments, but also try to give a sense of the kid as a person.

        2. School Inclusion Specialist*

          I’ve worked my whole career in what sounds like similar schools. I’ve seen numerous classes of students off to college. It sounds like you have some great feedback from people on the college side regarding rec letters.

          I would add that perhaps the best way he can help is to teach and reinforce the executive function skills that will support his students STAYING in college. If they are disadvantaged in the college application process, they are equally disadvantaged in figuring out how to navigate and access resources (if resources even exist) on the college campus. I worked at a school with a 100% college enrollment rate but only 50% 6 year college graduation rate. Students I spoke with talked about not understanding how to manage their study time. They also didn’t know how to manage finances (or picked the wrong college that had a lot of hidden fees). These examples just scratch the surface of the issues my students had once they got to college. I apologize for the unsolicited feedback. Years of heartbreaking stories make me a little jaded when thinking about the college process and college experience for non-white, non-upper-middle class students. Having an only a high school degree plus college debt is a very rough place to be.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Does he have a mentor teacher he can ask about it? Even if it’s not an assigned mentor but someone he really looks up to and students like could be a good resource!

      As someone on the college end of things, I’d want to hear about the student as a whole, not just in their class. Extra curriculars, work, exceptional academic things, that kind of stuff. We want to know about how the student can manage their time and how they might be on our campus.

      1. College Recommendation Letters*

        It’s a fairly new school with mostly new teachers, but he’s trying to network to find other, more experienced teachers that teach his subject. Hopefully it works out and they can provide guidance on this, too!

        That’s super helpful, thank you! He’s been taking a holistic approach, especially since we had heard that colleges want to see overall maturity. Nice to hear that it sounds like he’s heading in the right direction! If you have any other tips to share, I’d love to hear more from someone on the college side!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Admissions counselor here! He should be sure to address the prompt (if there is one) and focus on what the student can offer the college/university community (academically and socially). Nothing flowery or exaggerated, and if he feels unable to write a positive letter for a student, he should tell the student that up-front.

    4. Youth*

      I wrote a course about writing good recommendation letters! (The client was a private school designed for underprivileged kids.) It’s been a few months, so I don’t remember everything, but here are some things I do remember…
      -Don’t use cliches/meaningless phrases like “rock star” “cream of the crop” whatever. Use fresh, authentic language.
      -Don’t mention basic expectations, like always being on time or being cordial in class. Those are standards that all kids are theoretically supposed to meet, so they’re not really impressive. Only mention the exceptional.
      -Show, don’t tell. Instead of saying “This kid is super responsible,” say, “This kid voluntarily organized not only their own but everyone else’s desks.” Provide the details and let them draw their own conclusions.
      -Don’t take the “This kid is super deserving” tack. You don’t mention the kid’s disabilities, financial struggles, sexual orientation, anything like that for a basic college admission letter. You’re supposed to focus on the things the kid can control and is doing right, not the stuff the kid can’t control and that’s going wrong. I imagine this would be different if you were writing a letter for a specific scholarship since scholarships are often tied to race, class, etc. For just college acceptance, though, you don’t want to bring that stuff up. (According to the best practices my client provided, anyway.)

    5. Almost Academic*

      Slight tangent, but for writing recommendation letters, I encourage people to run them through the following:

      https://www.tomforth.co.uk/genderbias/

      It’s a gender bias checker for recommendation letters. Research has found that female applicants often get “softer” sounding recommendations, which can impact their ability to succeed. Your husband can use that tool to check for that and make sure that he’s giving balanced recommendations.

    6. Anyone Anywhere*

      I’ve worked in admissions.

      I don’t think that he needs to stress about this too much- as long as there are no red flags in the letter, typically they aren’t a major focus of the decision. Everyone knows that kids ask the teacher that they expect will say nice things- and so the vast majority of letters say bland, nice things about the student. They usually aren’t a major factor.

      But- occasionally the letters aren’t kind, and that is a huge issue. I think that it is the student’s responsibility to ask the recommender if he is comfortable giving a positive recommendation- but it would be a kindness to tell a student if you can’t write a positive letter for them, because you have misgivings about them.

      Sometimes, the letter is overwhelmingly positive, or reveals something about the student that isn’t elsewhere in the application, and that matters. Hearing things like that the student is a mentor to his peers, not formally, but that he has the respect of his peers for x and y, or that in some way she has depth and maturity that typical teenagers don’t have, can make a difference. If the student’s application has an obvious weakness- like if he failed chemistry twice, for example, it can make a difference to have something in the letter- from a hypothetically objective source- about why that happened, if you have some insight, and why the admissions committee should still admit him anyway.

      Things that aren’t great- listing the student’s achievements (they are already in the application), making very typical statements- he made teaching rewarding, she is a motivated high achiever, etc., and things like that don’t really add anything to the application, but they don’t harm the student either.

      I’m rambling a bit- what I am trying to say is that the vast majority of letters don’t add anything to the application. The ones that do add something unique and important about the student, but those only work if you genuinely have a student like this. If you want to help a student stand out, you would probably have to spend quite a bit of time with the student talking to them, looking for depth, maturity, passion, etc. and then be able to convey this well in a letter.

    7. College Recommendation Letters*

      I know this is super delayed, but I (and husband) want to thank everyone for their wonderful advice! This is exactly the type of feedback he needed and is so incredibly helpful! Thank you!

  86. Alice*

    I have a new colleague who was hired to take over an area of work that’s growing in importance in my profession — let’s call it fusion tea blending. Before his arrival, I was the office expert in fusion tea blending, but my job title and my major responsibilities are _adjacent_ to fusion tea blending, only overlapping a little.
    My new colleague is great, knows even more about fusion tea blending than I do, and will be a great contributor to the team.
    I feel bad about this — but I sometimes see my new colleague’s successes, and think “if I had all day to work on new tea blends, then I could have achieved that too!”
    I’m consciously making an effort not to let these feelings influence my behavior. I’ve introduced my new colleague to all my fusion tea expert contacts, in my workplace and in professional organizations. I passed on a package of notes and ideas in various planning stages. I invite my colleague’s input when I have a fusion-tea-adjacent project in my portfolio, and use it.
    And to be honest, I don’t even want to do fusion tea blending — I like my adjacent work better! But fusion tea blending is higher-profile than my work. I worry that by “giving up” that portfolio I have lost future opportunities.
    I guess my questions are
    – how can I stop feeling jealous?
    – how can I be a good colleague while I’m feeling jealous?
    Thanks for the advice.
    PS, I’d love to hear from people in my shoes but also people who’ve been in the role of my new colleague.

    1. J. B. Salinger*

      Stop being jealous by recognizing that your issue and the new colleague are separate. You are jealous because you liked the recognition tea fusion blending got you, so find something in your current work that could be improved or innovated to help your colleagues from what you actually already enjoy doing and/or make an effort to collaborate with your colleague on their work when it’s possible/or the work overlaps — perhaps you actually enjoy tea fusion blending more than you think.

      So far, it seems, you are being a good colleague so keep doing what you’re doing even if it means being more conscientiousness of your efforts. Realize that there’s more power within your position to do more, you just might not be seeing it.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      I understand exactly how you feel. For years and years, my job was really two jobs – let’s call them llama promotion and llama recordkeeping. My performance in llama promotion ranged from “good” to “OK,” depending on how much time I could spare for it, given all the hard deadlines involved in llama recordkeeping and how time-consuming llama promotion could be. I am actually a pretty darn good llama recordkeeper.

      For years, I said that we really needed to hire someone who could concentrate on llama promotion. It really was pretty much a full-time job, if done right, I said. And a couple of years ago, we finally did. And gosh, she does a great job. Better than I did most of the time, to be honest, and people have noticed – which does hurt a little bit. But what I do when I am filled with those “I could have done all those things, too, if you’d given me one job instead of two” thoughts is that I just try to remember all those times – those many, many times – when llama promotion was a Total. Pain. In. The. A**. And how much happier and more productive I am, now that I can concentrate on llama recordkeeping.

  87. Fabulous*

    I’m about to go on maternity leave this month (EEK!!)

    How close to your due date were you when the baby came? Did you end up having to leave earlier than anticipated? Were you able to train your coverage appropriately before you left?

    1. Murphy*

      I ended up going in for my weekly checkup 9 days before my due date and found out that they wanted to induce me the following evening. In a way it was nice because I went to work immediately following the appointment and was able to say “tomorrow will be my last day” so I was able to get everything in order.

      I was gone during a slow time for my position. I had given 2 people instructions on what to do if anything came up while I was gone…they didn’t really follow them, which led to two minorish incidents while I was out (one of which could have been completely avoided by actually following my instructions), but mostly it worked out ok.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      With my first, I actually went to work after my water broke! (But before my labour started, and after consulting with my midwife. She thought it was a weird plan, but not a terrible one.) It was the Monday of what I had planned as my last week – I was 37 weeks exactly, and I had planned to take some time off before the baby came.

      My replacement was starting that day. My manager and the only other person who knew my job were both not only in another city, but already out on mat leave, so I figured if I didn’t go in and talk to my replacement for at least a couple of hours, she would get no training at all! So I went in, had a *very* quick chat with her to give her the basics of the job, attended a very quick baby shower that had been planned for the next day, and left around 1:00. My daughter was born the next morning at 5:30.

      For my second, I decided I was not going to cut it *quite* that close. :) Plus I was tired from working and being pregnant and having a toddler, so I went off work at 35 weeks. Then the little stinker decided not to be born until 41 weeks, so I had 6 weeks of mat leave before he even arrived!

      There is no planning for babies, apparently. Good luck with your last few weeks of work, however they end up going!

    3. Ann Perkins*

      With my first, I ended up being induced the evening of 41+4. It’s normal to be a few days overdue with your first but my son was way too comfortable. I could have worked up until the end – office job and I was healthy and comfortable. My due date was a Friday and I took after that, but regretted it because I was bored out of my mind the following week and wasted a week of leave. I’m actually due this Tuesday with my second and working right up until the end this time. Unless you have a physical job, most people can work until the end with no complications. The only people I know who have had to take off early were having multiples.

      Training coverage just varies so widely based on the job. My job is an extremely niche job and there is only one other person besides the head boss in my office who is appropriately qualified to do what I do. This time she’s covering me 100% – she used to be my job previously, so she knows most of the basics already. I’ve updated her on things that have changed but haven’t had to train much otherwise. Last time we used a corporate interim program so there wasn’t much training involved there either.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      First baby went 40+5 and had to be induced for low fluid. Second came at EDD minus one.

      Late is slightly more common than early for your first.

    5. Lucy*

      #1 arrived at 40+6 … BUT my obstetrician banned me from working at an appointment at 34w (as in, I had to fight to be allowed to go from the hospital to the office and clear my desk) where baby was threatening early labour. I had been meant to carry on until 36w ish but medical circumstances took precedence.

      #2 40+0; #3 40+6 again. Apparently it’s comfortable in there

    6. Ranon*

      My kiddo came at 40+6, I worked to 38+5 or so. My maternity coverage was done by other employees but I didn’t manage to actually really make any sort of training/ handoffs/ etc stick at all until, gosh, a few days before I went on leave. And those were bonus days, my original plan was to go on leave at 38 weeks!

      I mentioned this in another thread, but I highly recommend lots of documentation and documentation of the locations of the documentation. The baby will be far more real to you than anyone else so it’s the best way I know of to actually have people be prepared if they’re otherwise pretending that you will work until 42 weeks and magically all will be fine.

    7. Sh’Dynasty*

      As a contractor in the US, my contract expired less than two weeks before my due date so I just stopped working then. My son came 40wks+1 day.

      If I had it my way at the time, I think I would have worked up until my due date just based on the financials at the time.

    8. Kj*

      41+1 for me. I planned to work to the end of week 39. But the week between leaving work and giving birth was very long. I wish I had worked up until I gave birth.

    9. Grandma Mazur*

      Baby came at 38+6. I had been intending to take annual leave for a week and a half, until the due date and then maternity leave from the due date, expecting baby to be a bit late but my waters broke on my second day of annual leave. Second baby due in a few weeks. Because I have an 18-month-old to look after, (and a whole load of accrued leave to use up) I’m taking annual leave from 36+6.

      First time around, I was actually heading up two teams (my own and covering a vacant post). My direct replacement started pretty much the day I went on leave and the person taking on the other post started two or three weeks later (but in both cases they were internal appointments so I was able to meet with them in person to talk through the sensitive info and leave long handover documents that made sense to them). This time around, my replacement won’t start until April and is an external appointment, but as I’ve only been in post a few months, and my boss was doing my job before me, she can take care of the handover (the gap in coverage is problematic but the knowledge won’t be lost).

      Anecdotally, a friend reckons that all the mums she knows who worked close to their due date ended up giving birth almost immediately, while those who left early ended up giving birth after 40 weeks…

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      All I can say for sure is to walk your co-workers & backup through your projects early, and keep backing the material up scrupulously each day you leave. My family & my husband’s both usually have late babies, so of course mine came a week early… right on the day I was supposed to do my walk through.

    11. Eccentric Smurf*

      Congratulations!

      #1: Worked until 39w, little one came at 40+5. No need to train my replacement as I was one of many in the same role and the others just picked up the slack while I was gone.

      #2: Worked until 39w, little one came at 40+2. My boss was my maternity coverage but I did give her a refresher around 34w and left copious notes which she appreciated greatly.

      #3: Worked at the office until 37, from home until 38+2, little one came at 38+2. I ended my day at 4:30pm (typical for our office) and my water broke at 4:35pm. If I had worked at the office that day, I would’ve been just starting my 45 minute drive home. Yikes! That time, it took 3 people to cover my leave and one of them accidentally deleted my detailed how-to notes before I even left the hospital. They were up a creek until someone worked up the nerve to email me for instructions.

  88. Rosie The Rager*

    Preparing for first day at weird PR job

    Around Christmas, I interviewed for and accepted a part-time PR assistant job with a boutique firm owned by an eccentric woman. The interview itself was strange and left me with more questions than anything else, but because I’ve been searching for a position for months, I decided to accept it.

    Monday is my first official day on the job, and I am seeking any advice the AAM commenters might have about dealing with a large personality and someone whose attention will be diverted by the periodic visits of her husband and 10-month-old daughter. She also teaches twice a week at a local university.

    The position’s flexibility and the opportunity to shift my career in another direction appeal to me, but I have concerns about this woman’s big personality and the blurring of lines between personal and professional. AAM readers, what are your suggestions for successfully navigating this environment? Do you have stories about similar work situations? If so, how did you handle it?

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Begin as you mean to go on. If you want those lines to stay sharp, make that a priority on Day One. It’s better to start out “too separate” than to have to try to backtrack.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      I’d strongly encourage you to network with people working in similar positions and related firms to get familiar with industry norms.

      You’ve posted several times about your boss’s supposed eccentricities or outlandish behavior. But really, nothing you’ve mentioned sounds unusual or unprofessional in the context of a solo practitioner in a highly creative field, except that there wasn’t anyone to do the follow-up paperwork…because you are being hired to be the person who deals with paperwork.

      If you are concerned about not having a written offer letter, type up a memo of the terms as discussed and email it to her for confirmation.

      The business owner isn’t having her “attention diverted” by her family. She is creating work-life balance for herself by operating her own agency. If she’s turning a profit and can afford to rent office space and hire staff, she is doing extremely well.

      I haven’t worked in PR, but I have worked for solo professionals who also teach, and been the lone admin. Teaching or lecturing part-time alongside a professional practice is an excellent way to network, be known as an expert or thought leader in the field, get publication opportunities, and possibly gain an additional income stream or health/pension benefits.

      The #1 thing to remember is that it is not the owner’s job to make things organized and convenient for you. It is (literally) your job to organize and make things convenient for them. That is what they hired you to do.

      If you’re asked to do something that feels intrusive or inappropriate, say no. If your check doesn’t clear, quit. Otherwise, make yourself useful and quit worrying about your boss’s wardrobe, parenting arrangements, or the fact that her business model is unfamiliar to you.

    3. Agent J*

      I would stay extremely organized with deadlines/due dates, progress reports, check-ins, etc. You may have to set up new processes as you learn how she works best but regardless, my advice is to be proactive. Don’t wait for her to check in with you about important projects and deadlines. Also, get everything in writing (basically, emails).

      She may be more organized than I’m giving her credit for but sometimes, creative and eccentric people don’t make the best personnel or project managers — it takes too much attention away from their passions and priorities. You will likely have to fill in that gap and she will be grateful for it.

      As for boundaries, set them early and often and don’t be afraid to speak up when/if she crosses them. You’re a professional whose boundaries about personal and professional matters should be respected, just like hers.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Agent J, thanks for the solid response!

        One of my biggest issues with my new boss is her refusal to put anything into writing. She only wants things in discussed verbally (hourly wage, hours worked per week, title, job responsibilities, etc.) and is obsessed–no hyperbole–with protecting the privacy of her clients but doesn’t have a formal system in place.

        When I inquired about obtaining a copy of a job description with duties listed, she told me to “chill out” and declined to provide any further specifics. Instead, I learned after accepting the position that she has an infant who is dropped off at her workplace by her husband each and every day. Funnily enough, she didn’t mention the baby during our interview or when offering me the position. She waited until after I’d committed to briefly talk about it after I saw two baby carriers in her offices.

        I am optimistic about gaining experience writing formal media kits and working with marketing departments for a variety of businesses (car manufacturers, healthcare providers, charter schools, etc.) and am looking forward to being part of a team. However, the lack of transparent communication is tempering my enthusiasm for the new opportunity.

        The other highlight will be when the new executive assistant is hired. Interviews for the position were scheduled at the end of December, so I hope to have a colleague when I arrive Monday.

        Wish me luck!

        1. WellRed*

          I wish you luck, but from your posts about this woman/job I am concerned your workstyles are gonna clash. Chill out? Yikes! As to the infant? She was under no obligation to disclose that, any more than a candidate would talk about their fam. Just dont let her pawn it off on you. Good luck!

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            WellRed, the “chill out” comment was made in regards to my desire to have a written job description.

            I’m not concerned about someone’s family life, provided it doesn’t impede my ability to complete my job. If I’m assigned a task to complete on deadline but cannot focus because a fussy infant is in full-on scream mode, then my work will suffer. I also believe that if someone has family members stopping by a place of business regularly, then a disclosure of this is necessary to all incoming staff. It’s a matter of courtesy and best practices, in my opinion.

            WellRed, I often find myself at odds with women in the workforce who do not believe in creating clear divisions aka boundaries between their personal and professional lives. In a previous job, my direct supervisor would discuss at length the fertility struggles of her elder daughter during what were designated fundraising project meetings. As you can well imagine, the fundraisers failed to meet their goals; consequently, the board gave her the ultimatum of finding a new job or being fired shortly after the final cost analysis was completed.

            My track record with women who bring their families, especially their children, into their work lives does not end well. I’m beginning to think about that pithy quote from mystery writer Rita Mae Brown: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

            1. Sandman*

              You’re harshly judging your new boss, her business practices, and how she manages her family life before you’ve even started the job. I wish you the best of luck, but I don’t see you setting yourself up for success here.

  89. XiXiXiXi*

    Context: I live in a country with 4 weeks as the standard period of leave, so am not in America.

    Is there a way you can negotiate extra unpaid leave for a last minute study opportunity without looking uncommitted to work? I am doing my degree with night classes as a part time student. I have a pre-booked and approved holiday booked for September/October (3 weeks) which is no issue, but I just found out my school wants to offer me an all expenses paid scholarship to study abroad for 4 weeks in Mexico which is an incredible opportunity, and one I do not want to pass up because of work.

    Is there a way I can try and bring it up. It is asking for basically another 3 weeks as a one off that I am completely willing to take as unpaid leave.

    1. Alice*

      What a great endorsement of your academic potential that the school is offering you this opportunity.
      Could you cancel or reschedule the holiday in the fall?
      If not — I am an asker as opposed to a guesser. I would bring it up, discussing it as unpaid leave. Can you be proactive about figuring out how the work that you do would get done (or what the effect of it not getting done would be) during the unpaid leave? I mean, presumably there’s already a plan for the fall leave, so it’s not like the place will fall to pieces without you for a few weeks :)

      1. XiXiXiXi*

        I can’t rebook the other holiday – it is a family holiday. My sister lives abroad and is getting married. I added an extra 10 days before I knew about Mexico, and I have already paid for my flights and all my accommodation and transfers, because I did it when the place I booked through was having a Black Friday sale last year.

        I am being vague for privacy reasons but it is probably more of an equity issue. I know there would be no problem with the work getting done as several of us do the same work and there is often someone out, but I think their main concern will be “why does XiXiXiXi get to have extra time off when sometimes our requests are denied?”. I am hoping it can maybe be swung as something a bit more special than “I have kids and it is school holidays, why can’t I have a month unpaid leave?”.

        1. Alice*

          Hmm. Well, like I said, I’m an asker. I’d emphasize that this is a one-off and it’s a scholarship. Maybe you can spin it that you’ll learn things that you can apply in your work?
          You may want to think, before you ask, about how you’ll respond if the answer is no. In that case, would you want to reassure your boss that you’re not disgruntled, and that you’re not going to quit this job and get a different one? Or maybe you would do that — there’s plenty of time between now and then.
          Good luck!

          1. XiXiXiXi*

            To be honest, I would probably quit if they said no, because I would regret it forever if I did not go, and this is really just a “in the meantime” job while I am a student, not a job in my field.

            1. valentine*

              Reconsider the 10-day wedding trip, even if you lose money on it. In fact, would you be out more or less money than going unpaid for three weeks? (And why are you counting it as three when it’s four?)

              1. Persephone*

                OP gets 4 weeks vacation. Three of those weeks are for the wedding trip. The remaining one week would go towards the Mexico trip, leaving three Mexico weeks to be taken as unpaid

    3. Hermione Langstrumpf*

      In my country we get 4 weeks (+a few days based on age/seniority in the company).
      Unpaid leave is rare but not unheard of. We have a colleague who took a few months of ‘study leave’ to finish her degree (exams, dissertation etc.). She had asked for this leave early on, it is a one-time request, her degree is connected to her job, and there is labour shortage in the country so she was granted the leave.
      It’s worth checking if there are any options in the labour code of your country that give some tax advantages to the companies that provide this leave.
      Try to put together a strong case as others are saying above (one-time, scholarship, how having this experience will contribute to your success at your job etc.) but be prepared for a no.
      Good luck, this sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I don’t know the details of your situation but if you can, go for it!

  90. Burnout*

    Any advice on dealing with burnout?

    I have a vacation planned for later this month (one week) and plans to find a new job and leave ASAP (there’s a lot of internal disfunction here that’s contributing to the burnout). However, the day to day issues are killing me. I have very little creativity, even less motivation and the overall stress from work is starting to impact other areas of my life (no appetite, short with friends and loved ones, insomnia, anexity).

    In a lot of ways I feel like everything (work, social life) is spiraling out of control and I’m worried that if I don’t address it now I’ll never be able to muster up the energy to find a new job and leave.

    1. Drax*

      Start on your exit strategy today – not tomorrow, today. Start polishing up that cover letter and resume and thinking about what type of job you want next. From there, start applying. It’s easy to be tired and not want to, force yourself. Force yourself to do it with gusto. You do not have to wait until your vacation to start.
      It’s amazing how you start to feel a lot more motivated when there is land on the horizon, you just need to start paddling.

      Also, start eating good food. Make an effort to feed yourself nutritious (and/or delicious) food often. Even if you are not hungry, make sure you’ve eaten at least something of substance EVERY SINGLE DAY. Lack of fuel in your body really doesn’t help the exhaustion. Talk to your doctor about temporary sleeping pills if that’s where your at, but start eating, sleeping, working towards changing the situation and making a habit (read:give yourself permission) to do something for yourself every single day – do you really need a nap or want to pick up your hobbies again, or even just lay on the floor and not think for 20 minutes. It’s not a forever solution, but it helps a little bit while you trudge through.

    2. Sh’Dynasty*

      Something similar happened to me in the past, and I was able to overcome it! I developed moderate anxiety and severe depression from the work environment I was in (diagnosed by dr). I was crying every day, developing daily chest pains, avoiding friends and family outside of work, glued to deadlines and crazed when normal hiccups occurred, minimal appetite, stress nightmares about work, coping by drinking every night, etc. I ended up being put on anxiety medication about 2 months before I left, which helped but did not solve the problem. I changed aspects of my daily life, too, such as scheduling dr appts and dropping alcohol.

      But truthfully, nothing helped so much as leaving the role and company I was in far behind. I went on a mini vacation for a long weekend, and was completely consumed with work related thoughts. The trip opened my eyes to how much I had changed (for the worse!) because of a job. I decided then that a job should not be my most defining characteristic of my life. I shouldn’t let it control me. I came back from the trip and put in my two weeks notice without something else lined up.

      It’s been almost two years since then, and I am so thankful that I left. I should’ve left sooner for my mental and physical well-being, and for my family members and friends who were stressed because I was so unhappy. It was not an easy road to leave without something lined up, but I am in a role for the last 1year+ that I adore and a company who’s culture I fit in with 100%.

    3. Zweisatz*

      Seconding the advice here. Additionally: see if you have enough in savings to tide over a job search. If that’s the case, quit as soon as possible! This is wrecking your health and will create bad habits and associations with work that you’ll have to get rid off again.

      If you cannot quit right now, start your job search immediately and make sure you plan as long as possible off between your old and new job. Every day you get as downtime between the two jobs will be amazing (and necessary) for your health. Don’t plan anything for those days, they are only for resting.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Ask your friends to help you get your search started. They probably really want to help you feel like your old self again. Let them help you. You vacancy make it up to them when you’re out of the hellhole.

  91. Kat in VA*

    It’s Friday!

    I got up this morning, took my shower, got dressed, slap makeup on, take a relatively short (45 minute) commute due to it being a holidayish week and the government shutdown, arrive at parking garage, turn off engine…

    And immediately get a phone call from my 13 year old’s school nurse saying Oh, hey, she’s vomiting and can you come get her RIGHT NOW please?

    Compose an email to assorted bosses and coworkers while still in car (seatbelt still on), turn right back around, go pick Child #3 up, and go home. Not that I mind – I’m chuffed to finish out a short week in yoga pants and a fuzzy sweater while WFH – but I kinda wish I’d known she was sick so I didn’t have to bother with the makeup part.

    Hope you all have a great weekend!

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oh lort, me too, since there’s seven of us total living here! (Me, husband, four kids, and son’s best friend)

  92. BusyBee*

    Would love some advice from this wise community! I was hired at my current company a little less than a year ago. I’m on a small 2-person team, and report to my boss, Brian. Since the time I was hired, the company has been sold to another company, but so far it seems like we’re all being retained and continuing to run our business.

    Two weeks ago, my colleague asked me if I would be interested in a role she has open on her team. It’s related to what I do now, and might be good experience for me. I told her that sounded interesting, and our mutual grand-boss also recommended I consider my colleague’s offer. Yesterday, grand-boss met with me and told me my boss, Brian, is moving to another role within our company. Brian’s role will not be backfilled, but I will assume his responsibilities. Grand-boss also said he still thinks I should join colleague’s team as well.

    So, I’m in a bit of a weird spot. Taking on Brian’s responsibilities was not framed as an option, but as a directive. And the role with colleague’s team would also be a challenge and new work I’m not super familiar with. There was no mention of a title or salary change. I would like to work on colleague’s team, but I don’t want to set myself up for failure by taking on way too much.

    Any thoughts on what I should do next? I’m thinking of meeting with colleague and speaking with her frankly about my concerns, while also getting a list of projects I will be inheriting from Brian. Then I can suggest we maybe structure things differently to offload part of Brian’s responsibilities to make space for the new role with colleague’s team. Not sure if that’s even a good idea, though!

    1. NotaPirate*

      Reorg is the worst. Could you assume new role and sort out tasks and hierarchy from new role then use that to negotiate for a raise at next review? It kinda sounds like they are shuffling your department out regardless. Maybe could ask for raise up front but harder to determine the scope of your new role at the moment… Good luck!

  93. NotaPirate*

    How do you gently decline being someones mentor? Especially when you may well pick up someone else soon so you can’t just claim you are busy.

    Person in question is a new hire. Very crass language. Unprofessional conversations in the workplace. Doesnt pick up new concepts quick enough for our boss. Dresses inappropriately for safety protocol etc. I dont have the time to mentor nor do I want to. But she follows me a bit and other people are redirecting criticism of her to me. Tell X they need to be doing Y differently. I trained her on a large task when she started (Boss shifted task from my workload to hers) and i think she’s gotten the impression I would be willing to be her guide to all work things.

    1. fposte*

      The easy thing here is that it sounds like you haven’t been asked. Therefore you can say with puzzlement to the “Tell X” people “You need to take that up with X–I’m not her manager.” If she’s hanging at your desk when you need to do work, just ask her brightly to move along because you need to do work.

      What might be a little more complicated is if she’s asking for an appropriate level of help on a task but you just don’t want to be the one who always gets asked, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what’s happening. It sounds more like this is yet another musical chairs situation–you were nearest to her when the music stopped, so people think she’s yours. It’s fine to make clear she’s not.

        1. fposte*

          This doesn’t seem like a formal mentoring relationship, though; it doesn’t seem like NotaPirate has even been asked or will be asked in so many words. It’s just that she’s being turned to as the person who will help Co-Worker.

    2. stitchinthyme*

      Ugh, I feel for you. Unfortunately the one time I had to deal with that, I didn’t handle it well. My boss basically stuck me with her without asking; I normally wouldn’t have minded, as she was nice enough, but she didn’t know some very basic things — like how to navigate around on a system (when our job was computer programming!). She’d ask me the same question multiple times — I didn’t expect her to remember every single thing, but after the second time, I’d at least expect her to make a note of the answer! And she’d ask me these questions rather than doing a Google search first, which irritated me further. I tried to tell my manager that she needed more training than I could provide while doing my own work as well, and suggested he sign her up for a class or something. But he was going through a rough time at home (new baby, lack of sleep) and was not doing a very good job of managing at the time, and we had a falling-out that resulted in my going to his boss and getting myself removed from his group, with the new person being put in a different group so she was no longer my problem. (This only worked because I had a very good relationship with my grandboss.)

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Something you wrote may give you an out… “I’ve already been talking with someone else.” Even if it’s not formalized, you’re serious enough about it to mention it here–so why not say that to the new person?
      You can if you’re willing to volunteer it that there are changes you’d need to see her implement if you’re going to consider changing your decision in a year or two–following office standards for behavior & conversation, following safety dress protocols, and mastering basic concepts of her new role. The first two are easy, that third I am not coming up with a concrete phrasing.

  94. moomin*

    I’ve just left a super toxic job in which I was bullied. The whole unit I worked in has problems linked to very bad management. Objective data, such as the turnover rate and complaints to HR confirm that. The communication between coworkers was mostly non-existent. People were awarded for being hostile to their colleagues. I was repeatedly shouted at and accused of things I didn’t do with absolutely no opportunity to prove “my innocence”.

    It really makes me very nervous. I can honestly say I didn’t do anything wrong. My performance was very good given the circumstances.

    I know I wasn’t the first one to be lied about and bullied by both my bosses and colleagues. I know a few other people have had similar problems and everybody I talked to is currently looking for a new job.

    I have another job scheduled to start soon.

    However, I live in a mid-size city and I’m very anxious about whether this will destroy my reputation. People know each other here and my ex-boss and some of my colleagues, although they behaved totally unprofessionally, don’t seem like that at all to external observers. Actually, my ex-boss seems like the nicest person out there and if I met him at a party I would never think he can be aggressive or a bully. And I know I was lied about at the organization and that he hated me.

    Is there anything I can do?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I mean this honestly, but is there anything you can do about what?

      I could understand if you were worried about finding a new job while these awful people potentially poison the well, but it sounds like you found a new job (congrats!) so you don’t have to worry about that. I think the best thing to do now is to focus on being good at your new job and building a great reputation for yourself there, so that if people are told bad things about you, they’ll just go “hmm Joffrey said moomin was awful, but my experience with them is that they’ve been nothing but hardworking and kind, weird. Oh well, that’s different companies for ya I guess.”

      Oh and if you have some downtime before starting your new job, really try and focus on taking care of yourself. I know what a toxic company can do to you, take the time you have to relax and reset your expectations so you can come in strong and fresh.

      Good luck and congrats on getting out of there!

      1. irene adler*

        This is good advice.

        Only thing is to get your reputation out there via networking with others in the industry.
        Work on doing well at new job, taking good care of your self, and then networking with others. They will know you personally so any ‘ugly’ the prior bosses throw around will be discounted (“Hey, I know moomin, and that’s just not something I’d believe about moomin.”).

  95. Donna Noble*

    I’m waiting for my background check to go through for a federal job and it’s a slow enough process and now slowed down even more. I gave “tentative” notice at my current job (small business 12 employees), because they hadn’t yet filled the other vacancy in my 3 person “department” and I didn’t want them to be left high and dry. They don’t want me to leave so they are definitely not pushing me out. But we’ve hired and pretty much trained my replacement and I’m sitting here twiddling my thumbs most days. I feel a little guilty collecting a paycheck for doing nothing and actually have discussed this with my supervisor. I told her I totally understand if they get to the point where they can’t justify paying me to sit around and wait for something to do all day. On top of this, I recently separated from my husband, but can’t afford to move out on the pay from my current job. I’m getting impatient and concerned that I may end up with zero job, in a very frustrating situation.

    1. blaise zamboni*

      That sounds so tough! For what it’s worth, I don’t think you should feel guilty about your current work status — hopefully you won’t encounter an emergency before you leave, but there’s no way your replacement has gleaned all your knowledge yet, so there’s value in your presence even if it’s not being utilized right now. Not much else you can do but wait, but this internet stranger is sending you good vibes and hope that everything gets processed soon.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Is there anything you can do at your current job? Document processes, clean out files, organize inventory, etc?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This! Oh if only everyone did that!
        (We’ve had high turnover this year in a group that sends us llama data…so at the moment we have no one tracking coat length, and no one left on staff who has done it in the past. And I’m pretty sure when they re-hire, someone will come to me and ask how the departed employees got the coat length data I use… which may have been within my skillset, but the people who left didn’t tell me.)

      2. Donna Noble*

        I’ve done all those things as well as literally rearranged the office. Today, the replacement is out of the office so at least I have all the regular daily activities to take care of. Trying to be positive, I get plenty of time to read my book club selection for this month and take extra walks around the warehouse for exercise.

  96. Annie Edison*

    Is applying for an internal job that you don’t have all the requirements for a bad idea?

    I like writing for fun. Enough that I’ve thought about incorporating it into my career. I’ve looked into technical writing and copywriting, but ultimately decided not to go for it because I like my current employer and role way too much to completely make the switch. I’ve done a few writing projects at work though (mostly writing up policies and procedures), and have established myself as the office proofreader. I’ve really enjoyed doing and have received positive feedback.

    I’ve been in my role nearly three years now and they’re starting to push me to move up into something else, but I’ve been having trouble deciding what I want to do next. And then yesterday, they posted their first ever job for a technical writer. Within a few hours I had an email from someone I’ve done some writing for, offering me a reference if I decided to apply. I’ve been freaking out ever since. The opportunity to write for the organization I love seems almost too good to be true.

    The thing is, because this is a new role, they are looking for someone with a lot of experience. They are offering a lot of money for the role (more than you would expect a technical writer to make, and way more than what I make now). Aside from those few projects, I have no technical writing experience. I’m not comfortable giving my personal writings to my employer (it wouldn’t be relevant anyways). Otherwise, I have papers I wrote for my degree, but I graduated five years ago so they aren’t very recent. I have the educational requirements of a BA, but I never took any writing courses, and everything I know about writing is self taught.

    I am really excited about this opportunity, but I don’t want to look completely out to lunch. It would be jumping up multiple salary tiers, and really taking a shift from some of the options suggested to me at my PD. Not to mention, I know no one in the Communications department that this will be under, and certainly know nothing about communications myself.

    Normally I’m all about just going for it, but I want to spend a long time working here if I can, and don’t want to make a fool of myself. Is this a dumb idea or should I take the plunge?

    And if there’s any writers out there reading this, any suggestions on what I can do to strengthen my application?

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      No harm in trying. Could you use samples from your work with that reference?

      Focus on the projects you have done that are related to the job description and how you found them to be really exciting and enjoyable to you. Show your knowledge of your organization and let that be a boost to your cover letter/application. My previous job was a weird mix of teaching communication skills and student/academic affairs, but my undergrad was in history-so I could write, read, and dissect an argument and I made sure to share that in my cover letter.

      If you find yourself really wanting to go in that direction, perhaps look at conferences/classes/graduate degree in professional writing/communications if that’s financially feasible? Perhaps your employer might help pay for it since they seem interested in keeping you and moving you up.

      1. Annie Edison*

        Yes I can definitely use that work as a sample!

        The more I think about it, the more I think I do have the relevant skills and knowledge to do this.

        The local college definitely offers a technical writing course that I could take. It’s typically a tough sell to get my employer to pay for classes, but they do if it’s compelling enough!

    3. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      Technical writer here and I say you lose nothing by applying. You don’t mention what type of technical writing the job is focused on, but the policies and procedures you’ve written are definitely relevant experience. An important part of technical writing is building relationships with subject matter experts, so you could emphasize that you already have those, in addition to proven writing skills. If they interview you, you could also ask whether they would support your professional development in your new field (by paying for a membership to the society for technical communication, allowing you to attend relevant webinars, etc) to signal that you have a plan for expanding on the skills you already have. Good luck! This sounds like an exciting opportunity!

      1. Annie Edison*

        Thank you!

        I think at the very least applying will demonstrate an interest in going this route. Even if this job doesn’t work out maybe it will bring more leads my way! The more I think about it, the more I think my current role is actually relevant because I read a lot of complex documents and have to keep track of a lot of information to keep things consistent.

        The job description itself isn’t very specific, it says “researching complex technical documents to provide information to stakeholders”. It sounds like I’d be explaining internal procedures to our clients.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Five year old school papers are better than nothing. When looking at your own writing, consider personal instructions you’ve sent –including writing instructions for great aunt Bertha to have a Skype chat with her grandchild, guiding a sibling through her first Thanksgiving turkey, and specifying new home wiring for a contractor.

      I’m one of the many tech writers who claim Julia Child as one of our own. And if you can document wiring needs clearly enough that your contractor gets it right on the first try, I’ll put money on your ability to document teapot handle installation!
      Also consider any advice you may have given on blog comments–it’s non-traditional but valid.

  97. CoordinatorSuperStar*

    My boss hosts the office parties at her house. Is it appropriate or expected to bring a hostess gift to these events?

    1. Graciosa*

      Generally not, although I admit I have done this on a few rare occasions where I was a member of a very small team.

      I remember one occasion when one of us brought flowers, one candy, and one a bottle of wine (all in the category of token hostess gifts) many years ago. I was a junior member of a three person team, and my boss got the most expensive (still very modest – probably under $10) of the gifts when we attended a small party at his boss’ home.

      I wouldn’t recommend that today (meaning I know better), and the head of our function has hosted major events at her home to which we do not bring hostess gifts – much better practice.

    2. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      I’d say no, since the boss isn’t “the host”, the boss is the boss and is this a quasi-work event.

    3. Trout 'Waver*

      It would not be expected, but I’d go ahead and do it if my boss was the type to care about such things. It certainly wouldn’t be inappropriate.

    4. Alfonzo Mango*

      I don’t think it’s inappropriate or expected, but a bottle of wine/air plant/candle is always welcome if you’d like. Keep it small and cheap!

    5. Namey McNameface*

      I always feel weird going to dine at someone else’s home empty handed. I would bring an inexpensive bottle of wine. Whether it’s boss or neighbour or whoever else.

  98. Elizabeth Proctor*

    My husband works for an education non-profit whose work aligns with the K-12 school year. Someone resigned recently and they are having a “send off” for her today. They are always having parties for people when they quit and I think it’s weird. Especially mid-year.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Just another point of reference, but I am in a totally different industry, and we do that all the time. We have happy hours for everyone from those leaving to go to a competitor to interns going back to college. These are usually pay-your-own-way, but sometimes the company sponsors it, like if a long-time department manager gets promoted and relocates or something.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This doesn’t sound weird to me at all; in fact, when I left a job I’d had for 8 years, they threw a full-on after hours party for me at a local bar. If someone is moving on and has been an asset to the office/company and there are no hard feelings, I think it’s nice to have a send-off. Why do you think it’s weird?

      1. Elizabeth Proctor*

        Thanks for the perspective. In education, leaving mid-year is pretty frowned-upon. These are also during the work day, not that that necessarily makes it more or less weird, just different from both of your examples.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      That’s not weird at all. We have happy hours when people leave; it’s simply an opportunity to celebrate the person advancing their career, and to thank them for working with us.

  99. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

    Not a request for advice, just a sad acceptance about my S. Baptist church employer. It’s hopeless, and is irrevocably broken. I can’t make this job work properly with my skill set and aptitude. I’m not a bookkeeper, can’t be one, my mind doesn’t work in that way. I can’t keep up with all the work as the only office person. I’m not managed, they just don’t want to be bothered, but are happy to blame me. I tried to talk to the new senior guy here but that just made things worse for me. I just need a new job.

  100. Matilda Jefferies*

    I have a question about the planning part of a job search. I’m at the very beginning of the process, and I want to create a plan with checkpoints and monthly goals and so on. The thing is – how do I do that? Every resource that I’ve seen online says “create a plan,” but doesn’t give specific details or examples of what it might look like.

    (For context, I’m a mid-career professional, looking for a team lead or SME type role. Currently in government, open to changing industries and/or professions.)

    My last job search took a year, and I applied to a grand total of twelve positions in that time – that was everything for which I was qualified, and which met my requirements for salary and geography and so on. So I can’t really use “applications sent” as a goal, as it depends on a fairly limited list of options that I don’t control. Similarly, I can’t use “invited to interviews,” as I don’t decide that either. Obviously the key success measure is that I end up with a job, but what happens in the meantime? I’m trying to come up with SMART goals, but I’m at a loss for things that are SMART and also within my direct control.

    TL;DR – I would appreciate any ideas or specific examples of what a “job search plan” looks like, for a mid-career professional.

    1. Deb Morgan*

      You may not be able to create a “job search plan” necessarily. Do you keep a list/spreadsheet of your job search progress? Something that would include where you applied, when you applied, the job title and description, how far you got in the process (phone screen, in-person interview, 2nd round interview, etc.)? That has always helped me feel more in control of the process, even if I couldn’t control the outcome, if that makes sense. Apologies if this isn’t helpful to you. I’ve never been good at goal setting.
      Good luck in your search!

    2. Zweisatz*

      In my last job search I didn’t set any number goals either, but used the time of day for structure. Meaning “from x am to y pm I am working on job stuff. Outside of those hours I am free to do whatever.”

      For your circumstances would it make sense to go for a certain turnaround time? Like “if I find a suitable listing I will hand in my application no later than 3 days”

  101. cactus lady*

    I got the following message along with a request to connect from a random guy on LinkedIn:

    Hi Cactus Lady…nice to meet you. I see you’re in the Teapot Industry. I have lots of friends and family in Teapots. Looking forward to connecting ;)

    He is in a completely different industry, we have no connections, but he does live in my city. I feel like he’s trying to hit on me. Suggestions as to what to do?

    1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      Ignore him. You don’t know him, and he shouldn’t expect a response.

      1. TurkeyLurkey*

        Totally agree with “Time”! If someone is cold messaging like this, they don’t deserve your time and are probably used to being ignored.

    3. Gumby*

      He could be hitting on you. He could be building out a “network” by being incredibly non-discriminating in who he requests connections with. I generally ignore ppl I don’t know who send connection requests on LinkedIn and assume they are spamming lots of other people too.

      My official title makes it sound like I work in our accounting department. I do not. I also have no say over hiring of any sort. I have received a large number of connection requests from people who work at temp staffing companies. Ugh. At first I replied all “it’s not me you want” but now I just ignore, ignore, ignore.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Meh, I’m pretty active on LinkedIn due to work and I get random connection requests pretty often. Mostly I find people are just trying to build their own networks and it’s harmless. But certainly if you felt uncomfortable for any reason just ignore his request.

    5. Wild Bluebell*

      Ignore it.
      I ignore all request from people I haven’t worked with and – sometimes – recruiters.

  102. workerbee*

    I had emailed Alison a year ago to say HELP- had just gotten a promotion into a role that was explicitly made up to cover my direct bosses weaknesses (instead of her being managed and helped to grow into the role she was in), was having issues with this direct boss on a personality basis (she would often come into my office, sit on the floor, and tell me how horrible my peers were at their jobs) and feeling absolutely unsupported by the rest of the management team when I relayed my concerns. My letter wasn’t published, probably because the easy answer was DUDE GET OUT THIS IS NOT A GOOD POSITION FOR YOU. However, I wanted to update and thank Alison because I continued to read this blog religiously (it’s my morning ritual to read AAM while enjoying my first cup of coffee at work before diving into the day) and find myself in a better place than I was a year ago.

    Direct boss continued to struggle in the role, and we used to butt heads a bit- the nature of my new role meant that I was encroaching on her management duties and I’m sure she felt as though she wasn’t given the same authority as other (male) managers in similar roles throughout the company. I had pretty much monthly meetings with my grandboss about how I was concerned about her behavior towards new hires, and how I was unhappy with the unclear definition in my role. As the year progressed, I slowly began taking on more and more of her duties, until the fall when I (calmly, rationally, assertively thanks to all the scripts from AAM) snapped and told my grandboss that something had to change- I either had to just be given the actual title of the role that I was acting, or we needed to separate the roles as intended. As he directed, I stepped back from a lot of the duties of her role, she took them up after a big meeting with him, and things were somewhat better.

    However, since my position was made up specifically to basically….be half of her position…..I found myself without a lot of things to do. I was constantly finding projects for myself, while also weekly asking my new boss (grandboss) for more work/responsibility. He is a MAJOR control freak and has extreme difficulty delegating tasks. I have found myself without steady projects at work for over 3 months.

    Direct boss then quit, which, honestly, was the best move. While we butted heads professionally, I see now a lot of the conflict was unwittingly engineered by the upper management- if they had given her more training/support for the areas she needed it, if they had clearly defined the boundaries of my role as it related to hers, if they had dealt with the red flag personality issues as soon as they came up instead of 9 months later…..anyway. So she left, I somewhat assumed that I would be the best person to step into the role given I knew the direct reports of the role well and had done most of the duties of the job for the greater part of a year and I had the legal qualifications needed for the role in our industry. However, grandboss tells me this week that they are instead moving forward with a hire who has worked here less than a year and might fudge some of the dates so she achieves the legal qualifications needed sooner. In addition, while she is being trained up (which he admits will take over a year), he will be assuming the role of manager while also being the head of our entire department. Because control freak.

    So the happy ending is thanks to networking and everything I’ve absorbed from AAM, I just signed an offer letter for a position similar to the one I had been passed over for with a major competitor of my current company- but more responsibility, more say in the development of the team, and a much higher salary (even more thanks to the salary negotiation tips!). I know my New Boss well thanks to working with her before and she is the opposite of a micro-manager, which is terrifying and refreshing (do I even still know how to think with autonomy? After being told I wasn’t ready for the management position that I was actively doing well because I hadn’t gone through the formality of the internal training process, I have a lot of self doubt that perhaps I don’t have the skills/expertise I thought I do, and maybe I hadn’t done that well of a job over the past year, despite the glowing reviews and praises of my grandboss).

    The whole point of this novel is to say THANK YOU ALISON! 2019 is going to be an excellent year of growth and challenge and I owe a big part of it to you.

    1. So glad I'm out of there*

      So delightful to see an update (I was spoiled from the December updates). And even better, it’s a wonderful update. You’re going to crush in 2019!

    2. MsM*

      You made up projects for yourself when you weren’t being given enough to do, you communicated proactively every step of the way, and you recognized when it was time to get out. I think you’re going to do just fine. :)

  103. Bipolar Beanpole*

    I just started a new job in a new field. It’s a small office and my boss is the head of the company. He is taking the time to give me advice and mentoring, which is wonderful because I haven’t ever had that before. I am struggling with a couple things though.

    1. My boss has taken me aside on a number of occasions and asked me to communicate differently with vendors. He wants me to be more assertive and firm about setting expectations. For example, instead of saying “if possible, we’d like to get…” say “we expect…” etc, wanting me to ask more probing questions, etc.

    I understand what he wants in theory, and I keep slipping up on this. I am not used to be assertive about anything, at all, ever, which I’m in therapy for, but I see how this is causing me problems in the work place.

    2. I feel terrible about any criticism at all, no matter how small, because it makes me feel like a failure. I’m trying to remind myself that if I’m not called out on my mistakes, then I can’t improve. I haven’t worked in two years and my past workplaces were really toxic, so I’m worried I’m not in touch with social office norms.

    I want to excel and do a good job, and get over these two issues. Has anyone been in a similar place?

    1. New year, same me*

      1. I had the opposite problem at OldJob and was told to communicate “softer” with vendors. It is ok to state exactly what you want and expect. You are paying the vendor! Asking more probing questions to vendors is normal, including “exactly how will you remove the red glaze from this teapot to make it blue?” so that you understand the process, or whatever probing questions your boss wants you to ask.

      2. Keep reminding yourself that your boss is genuinely wanting you to improve. Most people find out what they need to work on at their yearly review, myself included.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Depending on what you mean by “just started,” I think you’re probably fine! A new job in a new field is a lot to take on, especially after you’ve been out of work for two years. If your boss is reasonable, he’s going to see that you’re trying to be more assertive with your language, and will understand if you slip up occasionally. Remember it will get easier with time and practice – you’ll be better at it once you’ve been doing it for a couple of months, and even better once you’ve been doing it for a year. Maybe bookmark this post for yourself, so you can come back next January and see how far you’ve come in the meantime. Good luck!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you go to vendor meetings with a checklist and have the language you want to use written out? That helps me (a fellow therapy goer) with being more firm and confident, especially on the phone.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Yes, if you have a typical (or a few typical) email you have to send regularly, write out templates that use the language your boss wants used and lean on those for the bulk of that tricky communication. That way you’re not composing these emails on the fly and allowing the softer language to creep back in when you’re in a hurry or having a low day or something.

        1. J*

          This is smart. Also I thibk just the act of deliberately composing these could really help solidify the language in your mind.

    4. irene adler*

      RE: criticism
      People don’t give criticism unless they care about you.
      Some folks aren’t well-versed in giving criticism in a constructive manner. So it can sound ‘meaner’ than what they intend. Look at them as suggestions; take the suggestions and leave the rest.

    5. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Practice :)

      Think of it this way, if you are clear in your wording you are actually helping your vendors.

      If I hear the phrase “If possible, we’d like that by next Tuesday” I’m going to think that this would be a nice to have for you. If I hear the phrase “We need that by next Tuesday” or “We expect that by next Tuesday” there is no interpretation. It’s crystal clear what needs to happen. I need to get you X by next Tuesday.

      I’m a very direct person (so probably on the other side of you on that spectrum) I use the phrase ‘If possible’ when I’m asking for something that is either a long shot or it’s gravy (wanted but not needed).

      There’s also sometimes a very big misconception that direct = rude. That is most definitely not the case.

      * There is nothing rude about saying “blah blah blah… We’ll need that by next Tuesday, Thanks for helping with that” Or “I’ve sent over the 3 new orders. I’ll need #1 in February, #2 in March, and we expect #3 by the end of April. Let me know if any of that will be a problem and we can discuss. Thanks”

      *This is an example of rude. “blah blah blah… I need that by next Tuesday ok bye”

      I think it’s just going to take some practice and reassurance. Actively listen to people around you who you think are direct but aren’t rude; what does the tone sound like, what is their body language like, what other words do they use “Please, Thank You, etc.”

      On the criticism part… this can be a tough one. I hate constructive criticism. I really hate it. But I’ve learned to listen and accept it. The minute I start to hear it I instantly go on the defensive. It takes a lot of effort for me to pull back into acceptance. The funny thing is I typically agree with the feedback to the point that in my head I’m thinking “OMG Why are you telling me this I know that I suck at potato peeling. I’ve already enrolled in remedial spud skinning classes… ARGHHH”

      So, as you can tell, I’m probably not a lot of help on this front. So I’ll offer my “Right there with you, fistbump” instead.

    6. Drax*

      Think about it this way – when you order at a restaurant how do you order? You don’t go “I possibly, maybe, want a hamburger”, or just “hamburger” full stop, you say “I’ll have a hamburger, please”. This applies to anything you want, it is possible to be direct and still be nice.

      And coaching is good. People that want you to succeed will help you. Especially after toxic jobs, start trying to re frame that in your brain. They aren’t saying you suck and to give up, they’re trying to help you be the best you can be.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        Between this and the job descriptions… I’m really starting to wonder if we’re the same person. I was totally going to use the restaurant ordering analogy!

    7. J*

      Good on your boss! Too many managers are hesitant to manage. As others have said: be sure you don’t think of the more assertive language as “rude” (conciously or unconciously). Setting clear expectations and boundaries is honestly the kindest, most profesional thing you can do for a client.

      It may sound silly, but I recommend roleplaying with a friend. I was in a similar position in a job where I used really, really soft language, and while roleplaying felt goofy initially, it did help normalize the more assertive phrasing.

      Good luck! It just takes practice.

    8. Zweisatz*

      I’ll give a recommendation for “when I say no I feel guilty” here as well. It provides you with practical communication strategies to communicate more assertively and cope with criticism.

      Just as a note, some examples are hinky (think e.g. sexism), it’s more than 40 years old now (at least my copy).

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m a newcomer who is listening backwards in the podcasts, and I’m thinking of the one titled “I don’t take criticism well”. Over the course of the conversation, it came out that the caller gets little to no positive feedback — only negative. I know that’s been the case for me with some former managers– could it be for you? If yes, give the podcast a listen.

    10. Eccentric Smurf*

      I am making similar adjustments. I was recently transferred to a different department due to some restructuring. OldBoss was the most toxic, manipulative, oppressive human I’ve ever met but in a weird passive aggressive way that left you wondering if you were just reading the situation all wrong. She micromanaged everyone in OldDept and wanted things done in a very unorthodox way that was not at all intuitive and rarely followed best practices. She was often condescending, but with a smile on her face, implying that she was just trying to be helpful.

      NewBoss is awesome and like the rest of NewDept management, treats his employees like professionals capable of working with minimal oversight. (Think support and mentoring rather than daily oversight.) New boss gives me projects and just wants periodic updates. When I run options by him, he says it’s my call but he’d lean toward option A for XYZ reasons.

      At first it was unnerving being the one to make the call on pretty important, visible things. Then one day, it dawned on me that in NewDept I have the authority to speak more assertively on topics in my sphere of influence. With OldBoss I had to walk on eggshells all the time and that became the norm for my interactions with other people too. I am now relearning how to behave like the smart, independent woman I was before working under OldBoss’ regime. It’s very enlightening.

  104. Question for Nonprofit Program Managers*

    I’m a nonprofit program manager with about 15 years of experience. Most of that time was spent in very small organizations, so I feel like I’m relearning the sector now that I’m working for much larger organization (like, a budget and staff 100x the size of my last organization).

    In my org, program managers are responsible for fundraising for our programs. There is a small development staff that provides assistance (one grant writer assigned to my 40-person, 10-program division; other folks who manage organization-wide individual giving), but we’re pretty much on our own.

    This seems both unreasonable and unsustainable to me, for a lot of reasons. But most importantly, to me, is that I have stayed on a program management track (rather than an executive leadership track) because I’m not skilled at, and not interested in, fundraising and development.

    So my question is: is this normal? Are my org’s practices unusual, or is this the norm in large nonprofits?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      In my experience, it’s much more common for organizations with a lot of federal project funding to operate that way, because (I guess) the “fundraising” is so project-oriented, and the way to get a grant is to have a well-designed project, do the work you promised on time and on budget, etc.

      1. Question for Nonprofit Program Managers*

        Interesting!

        My organization — although not my division — receives a lot of state funding. That may be why we operate this way, even though IMO it doesn’t make sense for my program area. (The majority of my organization’s work, budget-wise, is in direct service. My division does system-level work: policy and advocacy, leadership development, racial equity work, etc.)

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Yeah, that could be it. The direct service teams handle their own funding, which makes sense, but then your division also works that way, which makes less sense.

      2. Observer*

        Even with project funding, though, not all organizations do this. Sure, the department heads are going to be INVOLVED with fundraising, but it’s not going to be primarily their responsibility.

  105. Sled dog mama*

    Hubby and I each have a coworker (totally separate fields) who have said things to us that boil down to “you must be exactly like me to be successful at this job”. We both have enough career behind us to know that plenty of different types of people are successful in both our careers.
    I, in particular, am facing a lot of pressure from this person (partly due to my personality and partly due to his sort of senior to me position).
    I heard a description the other day that summed up how I feel. He expects me to be either yolk or white but I’m a scrambled egg fully both all the time and I can’t separate the two.
    Hubby and I have both realized that we have very different priorities in life than these two people, both seem to always want the latest and greatest, and neither (both are male) seem to have much interest in spending time with their children.
    Hubby and I just aren’t into that. We’re still getting through loosing our younger daughter three years ago. Neither coworker seems to understand how that event has affected us, or really that it did affect us.
    Could really use use some help framing this because we have to keep working with these people at least for a bit and I need to learn to let this roll off instead of wanting to yell that I can be successful without being him, I don’t stop being me when I walk in the door at work and I’m not going to change who I am for him.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m so sorry about your daughter. <3

      As for your coworkers, I would stick with the theme of "thanks for the advice, I'll take it into consideration," and then going about doing whatever you were going to do anyway. Unless either of them is your direct boss or is in a position to require you to do things a certain way, you should be able to get away with politely ignoring them.

      1. fposte*

        Agreeing with Matilda. Co-workers who have wrong-footed expectations for us are legion; they’re the workplace equivalent of drivers behind you who honk when you’re waiting for a pedestrian to finish crossing.

        What I’d do is change the thing I do have control over–my expectations for these co-workers. They are not going to understand what this loss meant to you. They are going to keep thinking what they want about what you should do. Have some quick conversation exit phrases in hand: “Thanks for the thoughts, Bob” or, if you get along well enough with them that you could do it without being snarky, “We can’t all be you, Bob” with a smile. That’s really all the mental energy this is worth.

  106. I don’t post often*

    I realize this isn’t the perfect forum for this but I’m in a crunch. I have a massive spreadsheet with lots of formulas. Teapot management demands that I now “protect” the spreadsheet to protect the formulas. The problem is that when I protect the spreadsheet no one can use the filter or sort feature. Even if I just protect certain cells. Am I doing this incorrectly? Is there a way to protect certain cells and allow people to sort it?
    (Sidebar- people cannot alter the spreadsheet so if they did screw with the formulas they will do that only with their copy. Plus I don’t send out the whole file so if they screw something up it’s not on the master file.).

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m not a spreadsheet person, but can you have duplicate copies of the spreadsheet? A protected master copy, and a duplicate that people can filter and sort? (The whole thing sounds unnecessary, since others don’t have access to the master file, but like I said, I’m not a spreadsheet person.)

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      It may be in how you’re protecting it – you can protect cells against editing, viewing, modifying…I’m pretty sure you can protect from editing except to filter/sort. At the least, if you make it protected as read-only, you should still be able to filter/sort – you just can’t save over that file.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        So if you’re just protecting the sheet, after you click on the Protect Sheet button, then you can allow users to Sort and Use Autofilter. Make sure those are checked and you should be good to go.

        1. Natalie*

          Yes, at least in Excel 2016 a little dialogue box pops up after you click Protect Sheet that lists everything you can allow or restrict.

    3. Moonpie*

      There is a link to instructions for what I believe you’re looking for in my user name. (Not my site, just one of the sources I use for Excel questions.) You basically designate the sortable area as a range and then add sort and filter permissions in the protection box.

    4. dunstvangeet*

      This answer presumes that you use Microsoft Excel.

      Well, there are ways that you can protect the sheet and choose what editing you can do.

      When you protect the spreadsheet, You can choose what they can do. One of the options is: “Sort”, another option is “Use Auto-Filter”. I’d start there to see if that’s what you need to do. If that is, you can do that. If it’s not, then you can close it up.

      As far as protecting individual cells, you can choose, on a cell-by-cell basis. One of the options in the cell formating is under a tab called “protections”. It will say “locked”. If you uncheck this, then this will remove the cell from any protection that you want. However, that doesn’t sound like that’s what you want.

  107. IntrovertedAf*

    How do you come across as “enthusiastic” enough when that is just not your personality?

    1. I am just not the type to jump up and down celebrating because the team made their monthly goals. I will say “oh that’s great to hear”. It is great to hear. But I am not going to act as if I just won the lottery because we met our goals and will get a $50 giftcard each and an ordered in team lunch which is usually food I don’t really like because I always seem to get outvoted and we always end up having a particular type of food I don’t like to eat.
    2. I am not someone who “lives to work”. I “work to live”. I do my job to the best of my ability, but it is not my passion by any means or something that I love to do. Work is an “opportunity” in the sense that it is an opportunity to not starve and be homeless, but not an opportunity to live out my “passion”. Like many people, my work is not my passion. It is something I tolerated well enough because I did not have the fortune to be born filthy rich and to never work a day in my life. But I hate how not being “passionate” seems to be a bad thing. I do my job well. I always put in maximum effort. But it is not my “passion”. Why can’t that be OK? Do people expect people working at Starbucks to be “passionate” about clearing tables, do we expect cleaners to be “passionate” about scrubbing a toilet?
    3. I am a reserved introvert by nature.

    But I live in a country which values extroversion and every employer seems to want passion and that is just not me and I am not an actress and IDK what the hell to do :/

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t think you have to be an actress, but you may have to be more boisterous than you are being. It’s one thing to not be overly excited. It’s another thing to see apathetic and disengaged.

      The first isn’t probably an issue, the second probably is, because it leads to people thinking you are going to leave or just don’t care at all.

      So, can you pretend to be more excited? Respond to email enthusiastically. Join for lunch and fake being happy about it? I sometimes compare this to when I used to get really ugly sweaters from my grandmother. I always wore them (when she was around) and thanked her with a lovely note.

      1. IntrovertedAf*

        My problem is that I just don’t know how to be boisterous because I am reserved and introverted, and any attempt at being boisterous just comes across so fake and phony because I can not act it out. I do a bit better in email and try to use ! and more enthusiastic language, but I struggle with the “performance” in person. I do usually go for a few minutes of the lunch, but because I don’t like to eat the food they always seem to pick (and it has a very distinct smell that makes me feel nauseous if I have my period), I have to go and get something else so I can eat.

        I forgot to mention it in my post, but I think part of my problem is also that I have a mega case of BitchyRestingFace™. Yes, I’m fine. Really, I’m fine. I AM FINE, this is just my face.

        1. MsM*

          It’s okay to be honest but polite: “This really isn’t my favorite food, but I hope you all enjoy it.” Or speak up: “I know everyone else likes X, but we’ve had it a lot recently; could we maybe give Y a try this time instead?”

    2. New year, same me*

      Are you me? I could’ve written your post. I’ve tried smiling more, seeming cheery and saying things like “I look forward to our conversation/learning more about llama grooming.” This seems to be helping as far as I know. I get a lot fewer “are you ok? What is wrong?” by doing this.

      1. IntrovertedAf*

        I have been trying that, but I think a big part of my problem is the BitchyRestingFace™. Yes, I’m fine. Really, I’m fine. I AM FINE, this is just my face.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Pick someone who does extrovert very well.
      Watch them.
      Imitate them.

      I’ve learned how to make my voice warmer and more cheerful and what I should say that way. I still don’t jump up and down and I’m still bad at like, physically imitating passion. That requires acting skills. But I can change the tone of my voice and the way I word things and it helps.

      1. IntrovertedAf*

        I am getting better at making my voice sound a bit warmer but there is not a whole lot I can do about that BitchyRestingFace™ I was born with.

    4. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      It seems like you have two issues–behavior and attitude. Most people aren’t particularly passionate about their jobs, they don’t act like they “won the lottery” when things at work go well, they don’t “live to work,” plenty of people are introverts–but they can still seem engaged and enthusiastic.

      You seem really disdainful of both your particular job and the working world, and I’m concerned that disdain extends to your coworkers. You don’t have to jump up and down, but you shouldn’t sneer and look down on people who do, either.

      1. IntrovertedAf*

        The reason I have started to sneer at them is because I am sick of them sneering at me and putting false labels on me simply because I have a different kind of personality to them. I would sound a lot less bitter about their personalities if they were more accepting of mine.

        People express themselves differently. I have said before “that is great to hear” when the team met its goals, and meant it. I was genuinely glad to hear that. I like getting my $50 giftcard. I always pick a Sephora one and treat myself to a new eyeshadow palette or a couple of lipsticks.

        But because my reaction was not squeeling “OMG REALLY? THAT IS AMAZING, OMG I AM SO HAPPY TO HEAR THIS”, I get the “you could look happier about it” and accusations of not being a team player. Um. I literally JUST EXPRESSED that I was happy about it. I sneer about some of the over the top reactions because some of them really are.

        You don’t have to be “disdainful” of the working world to think it is all a bit too much when certain co-workers squeal and jump up and down and start hugging each other over making monthly goals. Firstly, you are my co-worker. Do. Not. Touch. Me. OMG. But secondly, that is the kind of reaction I save for things like hearing my nephew was born and that my sister and baby are both well, not hearing we did our job adequately last month. Work is not as exciting as hearing my nephew was born or winning the lottery and for me, THAT IS OK.

        I am exhausted with the constant emotion policing that introverts are constantly subject to by introverts and they way their personality is seen as ideal and that we must change to be more like them. When we do not act like them, we are blasted for not being engaged and enthusiastic enough, but no one dares to tell them that they can maybe dial it back a few notches. No. It is the introverts who are wrong.

        1. New year, same me*

          THIS. I would’ve had the exact same reaction you did. Would it help for you to explain to the giddy AF folk that “While I am excited/[insert whatever positive comment you made], I’m just not someone who jumps up and down. I am genuinely happy that we met our goal and will be choosing a Sephora gift card.”

          Or, would it help if you “conveyed excitement more” by asking them “ooh, what gift card will you be getting?” even if you don’t care? That way, the attention is on them and not your “lack of excitement.”

        2. AnotherIntrovert*

          ALL. OF. THIS.

          I hear you so hard on feeling like you always have to change your personality and put on a performance to be more like people who are not better or “more right” than you, but simply different. It is exhausting and frustrating.

    5. Joielle*

      Honestly? Use more exclamation points. Put one exclamation point in every email and that will be 75% of your problem solved. The other 25% is in-person interactions, which is harder… but if you can manage a sort of verbal exclamation point, that’ll help. Like in your example – it’s hard to type out the tone, but you can say it like “that’s great to hear.” or “that’s great to hear!” with a smile. The latter is what you should aim for.

      I, too, have the dreaded resting bitch face, but I make an effort to smile when someone asks if I’m ok. They’re being nice! I know it’s irritating, but if you smile warmly while saying “I’m fine, this is just my face!” it comes off a lot better.

      1. Joielle*

        Commenting again to add – I don’t mean this to sound like the “smile more” advice that women get all the time! Of course, this advice only applies to coworkers and others whose opinion you care about. If some random dude on the street asks what’s wrong, give him your iciest death glare until he runs away. >:[

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Agree 100%. I am a pretty direct person, especially when typing things out, and it never ceases to amaze me that the sole difference between being seen as abrasive and being told I’m a wonderful communicator is a “thanks!” at the end of everything.

        It feels a little inauthentic sometimes but it’s a really small pill to swallow given the results I experience.

    6. Meredith Brooks*

      I hear you. As an introvert who has a career in a job that basically requires some form of extroversion I have had to learn a lot of behaviors to exhibit an appropriate level of enthusiasm, regardless of my own personal feelings. I won’t lie. It has been a decade long facade that can be exhausting, but I’ve also learned a lot about how to better engage with others.

      All of this is to say, rather than identify what you’re not capable of doing, it might be best to see what extroverted/enthusiastic behaviors you do feel comfortable with. You may not personally delight in meeting monthly goals personally, but you can be happy for your team that they’ve achieved it. That means inserting yourself into the conversation in a way that’s more active. Instead of saying, “that’s great to hear” acknowledge the work everyone contributed to succeed “everyone worked so hard, that’s wonderful.”

      Similarly, don’t make excuses for why you don’t participate in certain things. It’s fine if you don’t want to participate in the team lunch, but don’t blame the food selection as the reason you don’t engage. It places a level of blame on other people being responsible for your interaction, which only you are responsible for.

      1. Havanananana*

        I do think the food selection can be something raised politely if it is genuinely the main reason OP skips out on them every time, especially since it sounds like the same type of food is getting picked every time. Something polite like “to be honest, I don’t particularly enjoy [type of food] and the smell sometimes makes me feel some nausea. But I would like to participate in the reward lunches. Maybe we could try [alternate type of food] or [another alternate type of food] next time?

        There might be other people sick of having [type of food] every time but feel like they can#t say anything and who will be happy to have [alternate type of food] or [another alternate type of food] and are relieved someone else has said something.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      I think one way to approach this would be to look inside yourself and find a way to frame your own character traits as positive & valuable in their own right, rather than as negative or reactive against something else.

      So, what about dedication, reliability and committment? Authenticity and sincerity? Integrity and work ethic? Intrinsic motivation? Listening and considering?

      Not everyone can see or value these things at first glance, but they are deeply needful in the world and in any successful business.

      And the more you own these traits and see their worth for yourself, the more confident you can be in explaining them to others. Not “this is just my face,” but “this is my listening face.”

      Not “I can’t act enthused over this measly reward,” but “I just like knowing I did good work.”

      Not “I’m no actress,” but “Hey, I’m an open book, I’m all in.”

      There will always be people and workplaces that are a bad fit. But when you know the real worth of your contribution, you can rest in that.

  108. TurkeyLurkey*

    I have the exciting opportunity to work together with someone more senior to create a new department and looking for books or resources on team/department building. We’ve got an internal group and consulting help on structuring ourselves to be effective at the specific department function, but I’d love recommendations on more general organizational strategies or nuts-and-bolts activities like establishing a team mission. Thanks!

  109. AnotherLibrarian*

    I’m not sure this is a problem, but I don’t have enough experience with long term job hunting to be sure. I’m getting a good rate of phone interviews, but of the phone interviews I’ve had, I’m only getting about 50% to move to in-person. I am in Special Collections librarianship which is a super tiny, super competitive field. Is this rate low? High?

    I know there are a lot of fellow librarians here, so I thought I would ask other academics/librarians what they thought.

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      Academic librarian here- that’s a solid percentage! We usually phone interview anywhere from 5 to 10 candidates and then invite 2-3 on campus, so 50% for a candidate is quite good.

      And at least for the SC search committees I’ve been on, I’ll say that selection can come down to beyond-your-control qualities because of our particular collections. Candidate A may mention in passing that she worked on an archival project of hedgehog hats and hey, guess what, someone recently donated a huge collection of hedgehog costumes- what serendipity! Those kinds of things tend to happen more in SC searches than other areas.

  110. FD*

    I could use encouragement this week. I’m in the middle of a major push, deadline is next Friday. I’m on day…10 of working, with seven more to go. I know I’ll get through it, and I have a vacation at the end but I’m so tired.

    1. Lisa*

      A lot of people couldn’t do what you are doing. Once this is over you will be very pleased with yourself that you were able to persevere. Take care of yourself so that you don’t get sick once vacation time gets here.

  111. FinallyFriday*

    So about two months ago I had an employee come to me to tell me he had received a job offer with a significant raise (this is the same employee I wrote about a while back who had an attitude problem). Because of his experience and the lack of remaining experience on my team my boss and I lobbied hard for him to get a raise and title bump and we were able to match the offer, however we told him this wouldn’t take place until the 1st of the year. The employee chose to stay, but if anything his attitude has gotten worse. I’ve spoken to him about it numerous times and at his year end review stressed that he needed to be a leader for the team and work on maintaining a professional attitude.

    My boss is aware of the situation and not happy. Apparently when I was in a meeting a few weeks ago my boss called the employee down to give him an assignment and the employee did not react appropriately. He literally said something along the lines of “this is a waste of time and I shouldn’t be doing it” loudly outside the president of the company’s door.

    Yesterday I reminded him about an assignment I needed for today and got a similar response in a hallway. I firmly reminded him that he needed to complete the assignment. I got a “whatever” in response.

    I’m at my wits end. Unfortunately I can’t afford to let this person go right now. I’d honestly like to pull the promotion, but that’s obviously not an option.

    Any thoughts?

    1. CAA*

      Look at it from his point of view, why should he change? He can behave however he wants and you won’t do anything other than talk, and if you do decide to take a more serious action against him, he knows he can just get another offer somewhere else because he’s already done that once.

      I’m sorry to say that I think this situation is not salvageable. Put him on a PIP and be prepared to hire a replacement when he’s gone. Since you’ve raised his salary and promoted him, you should be able to hire a similar candidate at the same rates.

    2. fposte*

      Unfortunately, my thoughts are that he’s won and you’ve lost. You’re not willing to replace him and you’re willing to give him more money with the attitude he has. He’s got a mandate, basically. So accept that this is the employee you’re going to have, protect your other workers as much as you can, and consider how bad things have to get before you’ll decide he’s not worth it.

    3. Drax*

      Why isn’t pulling the promotion an option? If he’s showing his true colors its in your best interest to listen to that and act accordingly.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, pull the promotion. Stop rewarding him for being abusive. Assess the cost of the hours boss and you have spent on him and that he’s spent resisting assignments. Pretend he dropped dead and make a plan to carry on the work. Also: Be worried about losing people who behave properly and are demoralized. This reminds me of the law firm with the sexist guy who had a party. Don’t recreate that OP’s errors.

    4. ArtK*

      You say that you can’t afford to lose him right now. Can you afford to keep him? He’s making life difficult for you and that rot can spread. He’s disrespectful and insubordinate.

      Put him on a PiP immediately. Get the process started to get rid of him. No matter what you think, he is not essential. It may be awkward without him for a while, but you’re not helping the business by keeping him around.

    5. Fiona*

      Even if you can’t do it literally today, you have to start getting the wheels in motion to fire him. This is not going to improve.

  112. Candid Candidate*

    Yesterday I was talking with a couple of coworkers at lunch and found out about something super racist about another coworker. She’s white and her last name is Pickens, and she named her dog… Cotton. Full name: Cotton Pickens. She finds this extremely funny and has told this story multiple times in front of coworkers, including black coworkers. No one, as far as I know, has confronted her about the fact that “cotton pickin'” is a racist slur against black people, but since she grew up in the south and we live in a southern state, there’s really no good excuse for her not to know this. For this and many other reasons, she’s not very well-liked by some on the team. I have not heard this from her first-hand, but I’ve decided that if I ever do, I’m willing to have the uncomfortable conversation with her as a fellow white woman who cares about making our office and our team a more inclusive space for everyone. Any suggestions on how to handle it tactfully? Even though I find this whole thing truly reprehensible, my aim is not to embarrass her but to set a boundary – don’t bring up racist slurs in the office, even if you think it’s a joke or (somehow) weren’t aware of the racist connotation.

    1. Time to get that arranged marriage my parents want*

      What you wrote sounds like the exact right thing to say. “You may not realize this, but your dogs name is viewed as a racial slight and makes many of us in the office uncomfortable. Please don’t bring it up at work.”

    2. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Have a conversation with her. This comment taught me it was a racial slur. She honestly might not know and think she just named her dog after a folksy phrase.

      1. Transplant*

        This. I’ve lived in southern Virginia for 25 years now and the phrase “are you out of your cotton pickin’ mind” has been uttered by both white and black people in my presence, and no one has blinked. There are lots of problematic phrases that we don’t even think about; thank you for being up to the challenge.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I think it’s currently getting treated as if it were more historically a slur than it actually has been, but some people have also been using it more as one these days, which is reason enough to back away.

        2. De-Archivist*

          I grew up in and live in the deep South, and I’ve never heard it used as a racial slur or even seriously as an insult. I’ve mostly heard it used ironically as an antiquated colloquialism like Transplant above, or “bless your pea-picking little heart” as a mock-folksy southern phrase. IME, people who use racial slurs aren’t generally very coy about it, and so I wonder if, because your coworker isn’t well-liked, that you might be reading more ill-intentions into her dog’s name than she means.

          Now, if some of your coworkers have mentioned that it’s considered racist and/or makes them uncomfortable, it’s totally different. It’s not clear to me whether this is a ‘thing’ in your office or something that personally makes you uncomfortable (which is totally valid). Maybe in your area it has more racial overtones than mine. I couldn’t say.

          If you do decide to approach her, I like Sloan’s verbiage and statement on this. Something to the effect of, “I’m not sure if you realize, but ‘cotton-picking’ has some racial overtones that might accidentally hurt someone’s feelings…” I think it would be a kindness to alert her to potentially problematic language. I’ll be filing this away in my own file cabinet of stuff to watch out for. But your comment seems to have an edge of outrage, and as you can see from the commentariat, that may be premature.

        3. Sandman*

          Yeah, I literally learned that this is a racist phrase maybe two weeks ago. Maybe it seems obvious, but to me it was just old-school Bugs Bunny. Address it, but I don’t see any reason not to at least begin by assuming good intent. You can always move on from there if needed.

      2. SophieChotek*

        While I agree it is hard to imagine that she not know it is a racial slur, since she grew up in the South, I have never heard the phrase before today, so I suppose it is vaguely possible she does not know, or does not understand the meaning.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I used to accidentally use a phrase that was an obscure racial slur that I didn’t realize. I had just literally never heard the origin of the word and it wouldn’t have occurred to me that it might offend somebody. Bad version of fixing this: One of my friends heard me use it and said, “don’t you know that word is terrible offensive, you should never use it.” This is perfectly true and she was right to say something, but the way she said it made it sound like I should have known better, that I had made a mistake and needed to apologize. (She was not a member of the culture being slurred). I was so distracted by being ashamed / angry at her for making me feel bad that I couldn’t really absorb her valid point until later. The same week, I heard my sister correct my mother using an out of date phrase that is now considered incorrect. My sister said, “I didn’t use to realize it either, but I actually heard recently that that phrase is offensive to minorities. I know you wouldn’t want to accidentally hurt someone’s feelings. The better term to use is X.” My mom was happy to learn this when phrased this way. Please note: I understand that minority groups don’t have to soft-sell corrections like this, and I’m not trying to tone-police someone who is offended themselves. I’ve just found that when you are in a peer group with someone, this is the most effective way to make the point.

        2. Lissa*

          Yeah, I’m not American and thought it was just a southern phrase used as an intensifier until…uh, right now actually.

        3. Clisby Williams*

          I grew up in the South (and live in the South today) and this is the first mention I’ve ever heard of this being a racial slur. Not hard at all to imagine.

      3. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        Yeah. I had no idea either. Not that it’s a phrase I hear often, or ever have outside of…I don’t know…old cartoons? Then again, I am not from or in the south.

    3. KR*

      Tangent – growing up a friend of mine (white family) had a black cat named Token. At the time my dad explained how the name was related to black people and racism but I didn’t really get it at the time… but I just remembered the cat’s name recently and was thinking how f**ked up that name was. Poor Kitty.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I wonder if you’re young enough that the cat could have been named after the character Token on South Park. Which is the same thing, I guess, although it feels different to me.

    4. LKW*

      It would be a kindness to have the conversation. When a white lawyer from Texas used the phrase “tar-baby” regarding a problem I just gasped and said to her “oh, that phrase makes me very uncomfortable” in front of the room.

      1. fposte*

        That’s a good analogue for me, in that the actual African folklore behind the tar baby (also a honey baby in some versions) is very cool, but the path the American adaptations and the term generally have taken in American culture make it problematic.

        1. Ann O.*

          This is one I’ve never understood. I’m familiar with the Br’er Rabbit story about the tar baby and similar Anansi stories. But given that these are African/African-American folk stories, I’ve always been confused about how/why “tar baby” is considered a racist phrase. (I know that it is, so I don’t use it. But I don’t know why it is)

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Because of the way the story became known in the US, which was via Uncle Remus and Song of the South – really heavy glorification of the “good ‘ole days” of happy jolly slaves, and so forth. And IIRC, the language in the original unreclaimed Uncle Remus was full of highly offensive terms.

            And specifically, the characters treat the “tar baby” as inferior – to the point of beating it – because it appears to be a very dark-skinned child.

    5. Ann Perkins*

      Yeah, go about it from an educational standpoint. I’m from Texas and didn’t know that was considered a slur either (and my mother grew up actually picking cotton – we’re white).

      1. nonegiven*

        My mom and her brothers and sisters and my MIL and her sisters had to pull cotton when they were kids. My mom brags how many pounds she could pull. MIL said she was going to get beaten for not pulling enough no matter how hard she worked so she just played in the fields instead.

        My first school had two weeks off in the fall for pulling cotton because it was a tradition, even though it was done by machinery by then.

        I also thought Cotton Pickens was a character in a book.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I was born & raised in the South, and have spent the last 20-some-odd years trying to educate myself to counteract the biases and ignorance in my upbringing. I have never in my life heard this used as a slur or heard or read any reference to it being considered offensive or a slur before this comment.

      I suppose there is a slavery reference embedded in it, and I’m always glad to learn something new or see things in a new light. But before this moment, I’ve never heard of it being any more racially charged than “hold your horses” or “he has a hard row to hoe.”

      So I’d suggest that you approach this from a standpoint of broadening awareness and changing norms. Not “you are racist, you should know better, I am setting a minimum appropriate boundary.”

      Because there are a lot of very, very considerate and thoughtful people who would not have the first clue what you’re talking about.

  113. Applesauced*

    Any tips, apps, websites to learn how to type? I’m in my 30’s and it’s getting embarrassing when people call me out on my 2 finger poking (fun fact – my high school typing class was graded on a curve, and one student already knew how to type and threw the curve off for the whole class and I didn’t want to fail)

    I am making a conscious effort to use correct form but it’s riddled with errors and takes longer than my wrong way so I need to practice.

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Back in the stone age, I learned off of Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing.

      But frankly if your’e doing fine with 2 fingers and don’t have any issues, you may not need to bother with the “correct” way. Some people can type really dang fast with just two fingers.

      2. nym*

        Good ol’ Mavis. I had a (required) typing class in sixth grade, and we all learned to type – on typewriters! – with the teacher prowling behind us yelling, “A! Space! S! Space! D! Space! F! Space!…” for an entire quarter. That got me up to about 20wpm. Several years later Mavis, and a lot of practice temping and writing papers in college, got me up to my current speed of about 105.

        The games are weirdly distracting, and you will learn proper typing. Worth every penny. Of course, that sixth grade teacher might still be alive somewhere and able to tutor, too.

    2. KR*

      I don’t know if Type to Learn is still available but I used this in the early 2000s in elementary school to learn how to type and it was fun with cool amateur early 2000s graphics. If you can try it I would definitely recommend.

      1. Deryn*

        Oh, Type to Learn was my favorite part of elementary school back in the day! I did have a love/hate relationship with it, though, because the librarian who taught our typing class would lay these heavy velvet drapes over our hands so we couldn’t look at the keyboard and “cheat”. Which is fine, but when you couple that with Midwestern August weather in a building with no air conditioning… not great.

        1. KR*

          We got to use the colorful Macs in the computer lab so I have only positive memories of it. Really for a rural elementary school the stuff we learned in that computer class really has stuck with me.

    3. Susan K*

      I learned to type by using instant messaging. I never really adopted the “proper” way to type that I learned in grade school, but when IMing became popular (remember when everyone was using AOL Instant Messenger?), I just kind of picked it up naturally. Having conversations over instant messenger requires quick typing, so the more I used instant messaging, the faster I got at typing. Even though I wasn’t consciously trying to type properly, I guess the typing lessons from my childhood came back to me, or maybe the “proper” way to type just came naturally while I was typing as quickly as I could. Maybe you can enlist friends/family/coworkers to communicate with you by IM whenever possible so you can practice.

    4. LKW*

      Also back in the stone age I learned with a program called “Type Attack”. That was a looooong time ago on an Apple IIe.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Lol! I learned playing a typing game on an Atari…it was like space invaders but you had to type the word to blast it away. As each level progressed the words came at you faster and got longer/harder to type.

    5. Nanc*

      See if your library has old-fashioned typing/touch typing for beginners books. I’ve a library volunteer in a college town and we get lots of students who can’t touch type and I always recommend these books. Touch Typing Made Simple is a good one. There are no fun games, no interesting stories and [almost] no instruction on function keys but they’ll get you up speed pretty quick.
      Full disclosure: Old. Learned to type on a 1929 manual typewriter with a broken Q. Took old school typing in High School (I can type dittos!).

      1. LKW*

        Dittos! My mom used to bring home old carbon paper so we could make carbon copies of notes… old times.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      I’m actually going to second Mavis Beacon. It used it years ago to improve my typing tremendously.

      It can feel a little juvenile, but it actually works!

    7. Mimmy*

      I am a keyboarding instructor, and I love seeing people who really want to learn the “proper” way to type. The programs I’m familiar with are targeted to blind and visually impaired learners because that’s the population I work with. I have heard of Mavis Beacon though – it’s probably the most well-known typing program.

      What you’re experiencing is normal. I tell all of my students that they are learning a new skill and that it’ll take time to get used to. (I have had students who have usable vision who had their own methods, including the 2-finger method, who say that their way was actually faster and thus are a little resistant to learning the correct way).

      My suggestions: Take your time when you practice – I generally emphasize accuracy before speed. Over time, it will become more natural and the speed will follow suit. Good posture helps too. If I can offer any other tips, please feel free to ask :)

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Way back in junior high school my typing (on a typewriter) teacher would tape a piece of paper over our hands so we couldn’t see the keys or watch our hands. You could try something similar so you just get used to feeling where the keys are and how to keep your hands on the home positions before you work on speed.

    9. LilySparrow*

      I learned in middle school on an IBM Selectric. I don’t remember the name of the book, but all the practice pieces were just boring blocks of text.

      I actually think that worked better for me than if it were a game, because it kind of bored my brain to sleep and connected the “circuit” directly from my eyes to my fingers. All muscle memory, no conscious thought. I truly can type a page without reading it or knowing what it says. And that translates into a LOT of speed.

      I remember about eight years ago, we’d moved to a new city and I needed to land some kind of work quickly, so I went to a temp agency. I took the typing test in the same room as a relatively new college grad. I didn’t think my score was that great compared to some of the ladies I’d known when I first started working, who regularly topped 100 wpm before their second cup of coffee. But the younger candidate was flabbergasted listening to my keys rattle – it was kind of funny how much it threw her.

      When I’m composing directly into the keyboard, it’s not as fast because I do have to think. But it is helpful, being able to type faster than I can think! It makes the process feel clear and seamless.

      So for that reason, I’d suggest some old-school boring practice texts. It pays off in the long run.

    10. Chaordic One*

      When I was learning to type, I was sort of lucky in that the keys on the keyboard I had at home was of a light color. I took a Sharpie and wrote the number of which finger to use on the corresponding key, according to a little chart I found in a learning to type manual.

      Since index fingers on my left and right hands both corresponded to the number one, I instead put the letter “L” on the keys that used the left hand, and the letter “R” on the keys that used the right hand. Middle fingers were number 2, Ring fingers number 3 and pinky fingers number 4. When I looked down at the keyboard I could see which finger should go on which key.

      I guess I’m a bit eccentric.

    11. Dr. Anonymous*

      I did use quite and old version of Mavis and found it helpful. Typing from the home row is actually reflex training, and there were studies done that indicate you actually learn the reflexes faster if you look at the keys at first. Eye motion studies have shown that even expert touch typists unconsciously glance at the keys now and then. So let yourself look while you’re first learning.

      You’ll find you have a certain speed at which you are accurate, and then when you push to increase your speed, your accuracy will drop until you adjust to the new speed, and this is normal—my only beef with the ancient version of Mavis I used is that it didn’t allow for that…and also that it had quite a few drills for short words (the main difference between fast typists and average typists is how fast they type the easy words), when at least one study I read showed you get faster at short words best when they appear in their normal context.

      Have fun practicing! There’s no point in making it torture.

    12. Even Steven*

      I may be too late to the game for you to see this, but you might enjoy typingtest.com. It has a free test to determine your speed, and then free courses to improve it. I use it periodically when my accuracy drops.

  114. NomAnonNomNom*

    Does anyone have any tips or recommendations for how to “look busy” when you are in an open office environment? I’m used to working in a fast paced environment and I that recently transitioned to a role that’s really low volume. Outside of meetings, I can get at least a weeks worth of work done in 1-2 days. I’ve let my boss know that I can take on more things, but they are hesitant to do so because they claim that that the low volume is high volume. I do get praise for my work, so it’s not a question of me not getting more work due to low quality.

    Where my problem is and why I’m seeking advice is that I feel really uncomfortable spending the rest of my time doing online courses and reading articles because I work in an open office environment. The only thing blocking sight lines in this office are other workers’ monitors. And each desk can mechanically lower or rise. So, it’s quite obvious what from all angles what I’m looking at on my computer. And even though what I’m looking at can be construed at job related, I feel so uncomfortable doing so, because it’s not “work”. Am I just being paranoid? I don’t want to look like I’m slacking off, but I really don’t have anything to do most days.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        This is when the AAM archives are really valuable. The plain white background with black text almost looks like a word doc from a distance (or at least doesn’t read as “fun”), and arguably it makes me a better employee, and it’s not something I’d be embarrassed to have found in my browser history, although the volume is probably problematic. At my last job I probably spent an hour a day in the AAM archives during our slow period. The other trick – might not work for you – was doing some creative writing during the day, which I could do on a word doc and save to a flashdrive. It kept me sane.

    3. A Non E. Mouse*

      Are there any skills that you want to brush up on? For example, if you are wanting to learn more about Excel, a spreadsheet looks like work just about anywhere, so fiddling with one (even if it’s sample data so you can learn how to properly Pivot) would be fine.

      Similar to what Sloan Kittering posted, black text on a white background looks like work too – if you want to read something from the internet but it’s a busy site, copy/paste it into word then remove images. You can read page after page that way with no one knowing what it actually says.

      Also, Alt+Tab is your friend.

    4. DCompliance*

      Open up an excel spreadsheet, find a podcast you like, put your headphones in, drift way…

    5. Chamfer*

      You can get an inexpensive screen filter that limits the viewing angle for your monitor. They’re often used in medical offices to restrict access to sensitive info. Just search for screen filters.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Write a book. Or fanfic. Or find a course that has more written/text based modules than video modules.

  115. Anon and Hiring*

    Do a lot of people take a job search break around the holidays? Our assistant gave notice and we are hiring for a replacement. We posted the new job about a week ago and have only gotten a few applications. I know the job market is tight but this is surprising and I’m not sure it’s a function of market conditions or time of year. We are offering what I believe (based on recent research) is an above average salary range for the type of job (financial services admin) and area and have posted that in the job ad.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Yes. I’m trying to hire someone too and boy do I wish I could pump the gas pedal on that but it definitely takes time for people to get back into gear with job searches in January, based on past experience.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      I was unemployed last year from Dec to Feb and took the holidays off, knowing that in January there’d be more job postings and I would also be more energized (the days being longer in my northern corner of the globe). I wouldn’t sweat it, this week and next more applications will probably roll in.

  116. EMW*

    I’m 28 years old and thinking about switching careers from property management to certified occupational therapy assistant. There are associates programs where I could be done in two years. Does anyone know if associates degrees are a good avenue to entry level jobs in a different field or have any advice on the field of occupational therapy in general?

    1. Enough*

      I believe the only way to become an occupational assistant is to get an associate degree. That certainly is the way for physical therapy assistants.

  117. yams*

    Well, my vacation glow was short lived. 3 hours after coming back to the office I got in a screaming match with the sales team. God I need a drink.

  118. DrTheLiz*

    Any advice on applying as an assistant (scientific journal) editor to Wiley Berlin? I’m super qualified, as it’s a physics/materials science journal and I moved from physics to materials science for my doctorate, and I really want the job. Obviously I’m being really careful with my cover letter etc. but any help would, well, help.

    1. Dr. Doll*

      Maybe contact Karen Kelsky, “The Professor Is In” lady. She does employment coaching for PhD’s.

    2. Alice*

      I’d spend some time reading about scholarly communication — do you already read the Scholarly Kitchen blog?
      I imagine that you’d be spending a lot of time on publishing, rather than science — corresponding with authors, looking for reviewers, public access policy compliance. Can you connect your previous experience to the job description?

  119. Dzhymm*

    I don’t know if this is better for the Friday thread or the weekend thread. It’s about a dream I had, but the dream was work-related.

    In my dream, I had gotten re-hired by a previous employer. I was working with some of the same people I’d been working with before as well as some new faces, but due to a re-org we were doing different work.

    One of our “co-workers” was an AI. This AI manifested as a no-nonsense older woman; it’s not clear whether her “body” was a robot or a solid hologram, but either way her avatar was a presence in the workplace. She had a mercurial temper and everyone seemed terrified of her. The overall dynamic I got was kind of like that you’d see in an abusive relationship: stay out of her way, don’t piss her off, try to keep her from noticing you, she’ll make your life hell otherwise. Apparently she was Extremely Important to the organization although it wasn’t clear exactly what she did other than make people miserable.

    I managed to escape her notice for a few days, but one day when walking between buildings she physically *tackled* me, then restrained me as she grilled me about my work history and what I was doing. Being a dream, the details got hazy at this point, but I must have survived the grilling because I remember being back at work later that day.

    Even in the dream I recognized that this was a hostile, abusive environment (kinda like living with my mom’s alcoholic uncle who could be sent into violent rages for any reason or no reason at all).

    When I woke up, I thought “You know, if that AI were a *human* employee her behavior would totally be actionable”. Messing with co-workers’ heads is bad enough, but physical assault is just beyond the pale.

    Which actually got me thinking: as AIs make more and more inroads into the workplace, how *are* their interactions with human employees going to be handled? Right now AI systems don’t have much in the way of “personalities”, but that will eventually change. How will we handle it if the computer really *is* out to get you? This has been a staple of fiction since, like, forever, but I have the feeling it will actually play out very differently in the workplace…

    Thoughts?

    3. Hamburke*

      Isn’t this the stuff of sci-fi movies? But we’re not there yet – remember the MS chatbot that would make a sailor blush and talked politics in less that 24 hours? We need to remember that bots are only as good as the information they’re given.

  120. Cerridwen*

    My co-worker just turned a conversation about eating a hot dog for lunch (him: “How was the new Hot Dog place on Main St.?”, me: “It was good, if you like red hot dogs.” him: “the problem with red hot dogs is they’re long and thin and I like them real thick”) into an explicit discussion on men’s genitalia in pornography and I had to cut him off and ask him why he felt that conversation was relevant. I wish HR would do something about it.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I wish we could upload gifs as comments. I would have chosen the best EWWWWUGH face, because it matches my facial expression right now.

    2. Holly*

      Write this down and date it. If it becomes a problem again, you’ll have documentation that this is a pattern. Pattern = potential liability, they’re not going to like that.

      1. Cerridwen*

        Thank you! I’ll start doing this.

        I’ve brought up things like this with my supervisor (grossly discuss the intense attractiveness of a woman outside the window, talking about very private things regarding intimacy with his wife, WATCHING AN INTOXICATED YOUNG WOMAN REMOVE HER CLOTHES ON A WORK SECURITY CAMERA AND CALL PEOPLE OVER TO WATCH IT) and the only thing he got was a ” stern conversation” about appropriateness at work. These are just a few of things I’ve reported to management and yet he’s still here. I guess I stopped documenting because after 2 years this sort of toxicity is super normal to me now.

        1. valentine*

          ~Document.
          ~After every incident, email the updated document to supervisor and HR.
          ~Don’t interact with the fiend.
          ~Transfer or leave the company.

    4. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

      Oh that is disgusting! That is definitely Not Okay and is textbook definitely of sexual harassment. In the comments you’ve said you’ve talked to you supervisor, but he just got a stern talking to. Why do you think they’re not taking it seriously? Is he doing this on a regular basis, to other people, or just you? I’m truly sorry you have to deal with this. Best of luck to you.

      1. Cerridwen*

        I think there’s several layers to it – my supervisor not having the support of his supervisor (the director), a lacking HR department, supervisor being burned out/distracted and this issue is small peanuts to him. Co-worker and I share an office so the comments are concentrated in our work area and I guess he just feels comfortable saying whatever pops into his head.

  121. Little Bean*

    I need ideas for retreat activities! I supervise a very small team of 4 people and we are having our first retreat in a couple of weeks. We are a brand new team (we were all hired in the last 4 months). The main focus will be on goal setting and planning for the upcoming year but I’d like to do maybe 1 short activity that is less about work and more fun. Knowing my team, they would be up for something like a game (they all were excited about participating in a scavenger hunt that our company put on last month) but I want to still keep it pretty professional. Any ideas for what to do with such a small group of people?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      We did an escape room followed by a long working lunch at a restaurant for a similar type of thing. We also did mini golf once many years ago (different team), and I liked the escape room more because you’re all together. Mini golf (or regular golf) separates people more. Bowling has been good, too, but there’s more skill variation. Some teams here have done axe throwing, but I haven’t tried it yet. Keep in mind people’s physical abilities and schedule needs, for sure.

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Agree with AnotherAlison. Escape rooms are great for work teams. Since you are all new, it will give you all a bit of a crash course in how each person works and thinks and can be really fun.

      1. Little Bean*

        An escape room sounds super fun! Unfortunately, that would take a lot more time than we have. It’s just a half-day “retreat” and we’re using most of it for planning so I’m just looking for something that would take maybe like a half hour.

    3. Starting on the left foot is right*

      We had a retreat at a hotel that had a pool. We were broken up into three teams, and the team building activity was building a boat out of cardboard sheets and then one person for each team got in and raced it across the pool.

    4. I love ice breakers!*

      A very quick one: Have each person write down a favorite movie on an index card. Shuffle and give each person a card; they have to guess whose movie it is. The person shares why it’s their favorite.

      Surrealist drawing: Give each person a piece of paper and access to crayons. At the top of the paper, person writes a sentence. Pass the paper to the left. Now you have to draw a picture depicting that person’s sentence. Fold the top of the paper over so the sentence is no longer visible, just the picture can be seen. Pass the paper to the left. Now you ahve to write a sentence describing what you think the picture is depicting. Fold the paper so the picture is no longer visible, just the sentence underneath can be seen. Pass the paper to the left. Write a sentence describing what the picture is depicting. Unfold the papers- hilarity ensues (especially when you have non-artistic folks.)

      1. Little Bean*

        I actually have the telestrations game which sounds exactly like your suggestion #2. I did think about that! I was worried that it was too unrelated to work but I do like that it’s easy, nobody has to do anything that puts them in the spotlight, and it’s easy to choose how long you spend on it.

  122. Chronicles of Kevin*

    *no offense intended to people named Kevin*

    Introduced here:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/10/open-thread-october-26-27-2018.html#comment-2202314

    and here:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/11/open-thread-november-2-3-2018.html#comment-2213056

    It’s-a-me! Late to the party b/c ti’s my last day before I leave for a not-vacation trip and lots of crap going on.

    Hope everyone had a great new year and holiday season that went exactly as you wanted it to go.
    Last week was just amazing, for lots of reasons. One of which that the troll wasn’t there.

    Kevin’s first day back and he tosses (yes..tosses..this si a very imp detail) an envelope across my desk and says “We need to mail this out!”

    First of all–I’m your supervisor, not your secretary. But, no actually, even if I was, you wouldn’t speak to ANYONE in this way. I’m friends with my own manager and would never pull this shit.

    Second of all–there’s a process on things like this. (I’m not going to get in to the boring details here, but…there’s a process for everything).

    We’ve talked to him and explicitly told him he cannot speak to people in this way. Sent him emails upon emails so that we have this crap in writing.

    I’m slowly learning and adopting tips on how to manage him, but all I can do is rolly my eyes.

    Just..FYI, I’m no longer going to entertain that I’m perosnally/professionally lacking in this or that I’m not fit to work with people b/c I find him to be really troll-like.

    oh and fun tidbit–I”ve noticed he’s super friendly with all the men, and a very few select women.

    I’m only chill right now b/c I”ll be out for a few weeks so.

    1. Zona the Great*

      Have you tried a quick and simple, “don’t ever do something like that again. Please pick up the envelope and take care of the task according to our standard work. You owe me an apology” and then follow-up with an email that you had to talk to him about something he’s already been spoken to about…?

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      I hadn’t seen the last few updates… but goody, you got yourself a pain in the ass. The good news is you are going to learn a lot from this. The bad news it’s going to be well… a pain in the ass.

      Sounds like you’ll be out for awhile but here are some tips for when you come back.

      1. Document- Every conversation, every thing you end up coaching him on, etc.
      2. Don’t back down- You are the supervisor and you have the authority (as you’ve stated that your boss has given that to you). Continue the coaching and make sure you don’t fall in the avoidance trap.
      3. Don’t settle. It’s easy to fall into the trap of letting things slide because he’s ‘doing better’. You should have a baseline for the team and that is the standard you hold them to.

      Now on to the sexism as a factor… It really doesn’t matter. If he’s being an ass or not getting the job done it’s irrelevant. At the end of the day if he’s not getting it done then the reason (outside of things like not being trained or other legitimate obstacles) is nothing more than an interesting side note.

      Plan your next move, is he ready for a PIP? (it kind of sounds like it) Bring your plan to your manager on how you want to proceed with Kevin. It could be anything from; not allowing his cell phone in the office (It sucks to have to manage to this level, but sometimes you have to), to a review of policies (one of your updates was how he didn’t take the client call), to a PIP or other disciplinary action (verbal/written warnings etc).

      Good luck and keep us updated

      1. Chronicles of Kevin*

        Hi,
        I think those were the last 2 major times I posted about him.
        I’ve done the documentation…every time I talk to him, I send an email CC-ing my manager.

        Can you clarify what’s the “avoidance trap?”

        The side note is just a side note..it’s not a motivation for the way he is, just something I noticed.

        Unfortunately we dont’ do PIPs, we just have conversations, documentation, and if it keeps happening eventual termination.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          The avoidance trap is when you are dealing with a PITA that it’s easier to ignore or overlook problems than deal with them.

          Managing someone like this is exhausting and can suck the life out of you. But it’s critical to do what you’ve been doing and address everything that doesn’t meet your stated expectations.

      2. Chronicles of Kevin*

        Thank you for the long and thoughtful reply, I will def post back here.

        Oh yeah, we have a 1 on 1 wiht him later today (which we’re doing with everyone on our team). So..def will post about that!

      3. Chronicles of Kevin*

        I think in my past thread someone mentioned if he may be sexist and it didn’t occur to me but it made me take more notice of how he interacts with others. In any case though, I do agree that it’s irrelevant.

  123. Sort of tacky present question*

    So I’m leaving my nonprofit job after almost 5 years, and am expecting some sort of goodbye gift, as 5 years is a good amt of time in my field, and I’m leaving for health reasons. One of my direct reports will probably arrange for any goodbye activity; usually I arrange that sort of thing, but not this time.
    Usually I’m the present buyer for departing board members and selected sr staff. I so don’t want our standard selections. Usually they give a framed photo w the head of the org, but unless they photoshop, that’s not going to happen! (I’m never still at events – always managing details). Possibility #2 is a generic plaque – that’s what HR is doing for anniversaries at our yearly staff appreciation. Any other good ideas?

  124. Penguin*

    Hey AAM folks! I’ve got a resume question for y’all:

    How do you detail a large block of time (e.g. a year) where you were freelance and worked on a single large project? Not something with many different stages, but one where you essentially did a couple things over and over (think ‘researching a particular topic’)?

    “Researched and wrote up a 100 page report on teapot designs in the 1700s” doesn’t really cut it, but I’m blanking on ways to flesh that out such that it truly conveys the time and effort involved. Any suggestions?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Hm. Off the top of my head:

      *Did you have a planning process before you started researching? IE, did you write down any thoughts on how long each phase would take, sources you would need to consult in your research, checkpoints and milestones? You can use the phrase used project management methodology to… to begin this section.

      *Details of the research process – How many different sources did you consult? Were any of them particularly obscure or difficult to track down?

      *Details of the review and revision process – did you have other people look at it? Did you need to bug them to meet deadlines and get things back to you? How many review and revision cycles were there?

      *Details about publication or dissemination – both the physical process if there was one (who put the ink on the paper? Did you coordinate that, or did you direct someone else to do it?), and the audience (who you expect to read it, what you expect them to do with the info, etc.)

  125. Nervous Neville*

    Update on going on 4 managers in 3 years (started this role a few months ago, and my boss just resigned) — everyone was back from vacation this week, but I still don’t know who my next boss will be. We’re also going through a reorganization right now. Possible!FutureBoss told me he didn’t know & to wait for the new org chart. They were supposed to release the new chart on Wednesday. You’ll notice it’s Friday.

    Y’all I’d really like to know what’s my new role. My job description is so nebulous that my day-to-day work will depend a lot on which boss I have.

  126. Aaaahhh!!*

    I’ve been on the job hunt for a few months and am interviewing for a promising position on Monday. The positions I’ve worked so far have all been at either new companies or where turnover is quite common (i.e. university work). The position I’m interviewing for sounds amazing but I was told whoever is hired would be replacing the old employee, who is retiring after 20 years at that company. How do you deal with that? It seems so intimidating, especially as I’m quite young and it’s pretty scary to step into a role where a single person has dominated it for so long. If I get hired, what if people dislike me right away because I’m not her or because I do things differently, have a different personality, etc.?

    1. irene adler*

      And what if you are the “breath of fresh air” that the prior employee was not? For all you know, folks were dancing in the halls when your predecessor gave notice.

      You will do things differently, and have a different personality. That’s a fact. Different doesn’t mean bad.
      In fact, you may pick up on the job duties in record time and even improve on the processes your predecessor followed. And they will be feeling a whole lotta love for you that they never had for the predecessor.

      I would not assume that folks will dislike you, unless you go around acting in boorish ways (trashing your predecessor, complaining endlessly, refuse to learn how job duties are expected to be completed).

      Just allow for some adjustment time-for both sides.

      If predecessor was highly regarded, let folks tell you what they liked about her. Then use “Oh, that’s nice. Thank you for telling me that. Sure hope I can do her proud in this job. I’m hoping you’ll help me do that.”

      1. Aaaahhh!!*

        Thank you so much! My current situation is really toxic so I keep approaching possible opportunities with negativity and worry. I should be looking at the positives and that perhaps I may be a new face that they want in their office. I will definitely inquire about her processes/procedures that they really liked as well.

        Thank you again for the levelheaded response and restoring my confidence a bit in possibly taking on this role.

    2. Robyn*

      I replaced a person with a similarly long tenure (25+ years at agency, 15 or so in the role) after her retirement. It was a bit intimidating, but I found that for every person who bemoaned her retirement, there was another that wasn’t especially fond of her, or appreciated something about how I did the role differently and mentioned it to me. For example, I work much more quickly on some things than she did, so I would return calls or e-mails much faster than folks were expecting, and they were pleasantly surprised. Like irene adler says, different doesn’t mean bad.

      Also, my mentioning how she well-deserved her retirement was after the years of hard work she put in for our clients really stemmed the “I wish So-and-So were still here!” comments from those same clients.

  127. Awkward anon*

    Ugh… had an interview for a records analyst position at a law firm. They were very nice, but I don’t think I got it. (I don’t have law firm experience and the position might be too technical.. ) Maybe it’s a good thing because the supervisor looked like Tom Brady. I must have been making googly eyes at him because the guy then started talking about his wife, lol. Ah…. I suck at life. Oh well. At least it’s Friday!!

  128. Another Librarian*

    So I had a very accidental very devastating injury a month ago. Think permanent repercussions, PT, therapy, surgeries, etc. I’ve just gotten back to work, and everything my boss wants to “go over” with me is everything I planned to do last month. Do I keep my mouth shut and accept, or do I continue to repeat the phrase “that was my plan for december, here’s an updated timeline of when that will get completed by”?

    1. fposte*

      Sorry for the injury–those suck. How do you generally get along with your boss? Is it worth saying “Those were all the tasks on deck for me for December, but since I was on medical leave, there’s nothing new to report–does it make sense to move this meeting to February?”

      1. KR*

        Love this, also there’s a chance the December projects are now unneeded, were worked on by other people, or have otherwise changed since you were out sick

        1. Another Librarian*

          Unfortunately not. Most of them were personal projects– the state of my desk, a collection that’s been my baby for three years, changing the calendar, etc. She did the calendar part and I gave her an updated timeline for the collection — it was supposed to be done by now, but I moved the deadline for that to April, even though I should (if there are no more accidents or complications) be done in March.

          I think this taught me to pad out my deadlines no matter what– true, nothing might happen, but *something* might. Better to have that cushion, and look better for finishing early.

      2. Another Librarian*

        I like this, thank you. It’s a lot more respectful than my growing urge to unbandage myself and wave the injury under her nose and be “hey this is why everything’s behind SORRY I CAN’T GO FASTER WITH ONE GOOD HAND AND RESTRICTIONS.”

        I’m working on the injury. It’ll impact my life forever– which seems like a damn huge price for a minute of inattention, but that is how accidents go. Thank you.

  129. Environmental Compliance*

    No new safety person hired yet. Happy to say that we are interviewing very promptly but also still thoroughly. Noticed that the Fired Safety Smokemeister has blocked me on LinkedIn, which entertained me a little bit.

    Also happy to say that the assessment of the facility came back on the EHS side and it is directly called out that I am of great value to the facility for my expertise & work ethic, so that’s pretty neat.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Not incredibly happy to say that the people who are reviewing a permit application I’m sending out for some reason do not understand that this requires forms. They want me to send only what’s being sent in for the application. Yep, that’s what I sent. No, only the stuff required for the application. Yep……….that’s what was sent. Is there something missing? Well, we only want the stuff required for the application, no extra stuff.

      *bangs head on wall*

  130. Half-Caf Latte*

    The building where I work (not owned by employer) recently was cited by the city for recycling violations, i.e., recyclables in the trash.

    Building management’s response to this was to remove all trash cans from desks and offices, and now they are in the bathrooms and kitchens only.

    I can only assume that someone had the thought- well paper is all recyclable, and we recycle plastics 1-7, so what else could possibly be trash at someone’s desk? Taking away trash is NBD!

    Ignoring all the dining al desko that occurs here, today I’ve generated the following things that cannot be recycled: tissues, an exploded ballpoint pen, a clorox wipe (germy coworker all up in my space), the plastic overwrap from a pack of gum, said gum, now chewed, and possibly a postit note (anyone know if postit notes are recyclable?)

    This rule is Very Dumb ™ and we are all Over It.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I have a confession. I recycle less than I should at work because the only receptacle in my office is a trash can. I don’t always make the extra effort to walk halfway across the building to the recycle bins. If they took away my trash can, I would recycle more because I’d have to make the walk to dispose of everything anyway. Though if they provided a recycle bin, that would also solve the problem.

      1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

        One of our offices is so random with their recycling bins. Some break rooms have trash, plastic, cans others have trash and cans, and some have trash and plastic.

        Offices can have trash, paper, plastic, and cans or any random combination of the options.

        It’s baffling to try to remember where each kind of bin is located.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        thanks! Good to know. The one in question no longer is, as I have since re-purposed it for the aforementioned chewing gum.

    3. Lena Clare*

      Our building (a HUGE community space not owned by my employers) got their recycling bins taken away by the council because they kept on putting the wrong rubbish in.

      The only bins are small general waste ones.
      I end up taking my and anyone else’s I can find recycling home to my own recycling bin.
      Otherwise I do get stressed by how wasteful it all is.

    4. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      That is indeed Very Dumb. IMO while recycling is great, not treating your employees like children takes precedence.

    5. Psyche*

      Seems like this rule is going to result in trash in the recycling bin. Not exactly a step up.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      It’s probably not going to work either. My office did that a while ago – took away desk-side trash cans in favor of larger recycling, compost, and trash at the office entrances, kitchen area, and bathrooms. I can’t tell you how many people didn’t bother to sort trash from compost or recycling, but they also tossed all of it in whatever can was closest (all the cans were next to each other, but if the recycling one was the closest, it got all the junk) rather than all in trash (best of the bad options).

      Also they issued tiny desk-top trash cans made of mesh. *sigh* They do make good pen holders.

      1. periwinkle*

        We must work for the same company! We have trios of bins in convenient locations – compost, non-paper recycling, and trash – plus the pencil holder-sized personal trash receptacles. I don’t mind this because it does cut down on smells and fruit flies in the cubicle areas. I have noticed that despite the illustrated what-goes-where picture on each receptacle, a lot of compost-suitable stuff gets dumped in the trash – lots and lots of paper towels, paper plates, half-eaten sandwiches, etc.

        The intent was to get people to think more carefully about what they casually throw into the trash, and it definitely has made me change some habits.

      2. Mike C.*

        My company did the exact same thing, down to the black mesh pen holders.

        It’s incredibly obnoxious because they could have given me three containers at my desk if they wanted me to sort, but no, that makes too much sense. Also, I hate having to lug that garbage around to find the bin that’s way down the hall (my building is huge), and then sort everything, every few days. It feels like they wanted to cut janitorial staff more than anything else.

  131. LGC*

    So, first of all: thanks to the people who answered my (REALLY) long post last week! And thanks for reassuring me that I didn’t totally foul things up.

    (Long story short: one of my Sansas – referencing letter 5 from the short answers today – stormed out on me because they were having a rough time outside of work and couldn’t get the week of Christmas off as leave.)

    I checked in and things seem to be a lot better! They’re doing much better outside of work. (That’s as far as I’ll go into detail.) Plus, they came in every day! I’m still a little bit nervous, but that’s pretty natural for me (I’m trying to work on it, though).

    I’ll keep an eye out, but my fingers are crossed that it was just a really bad few months for them.

  132. Mashed potato*

    One more question, I currently work in a kinda new/ start up company, is there any clues I can know if a company isn’t doing well or won’t be? I don’t have access to sales or number figures so I can’t just look at decrease in profit or things like that

    1. Lena Clare*

      You could ask about turnover of staff, what training and opportunities for development do they have for staff? Look at what rewards there are to retain staff.
      Chat to others in the organisation and get a feel for how they like it.

    2. irene adler*

      Been there.
      They -upper management- will clamp down on all purchases. Might even require all purchases to be approved by CFO.
      If you are ordering supplies from external vendors, you might find your contacts a little -touchy- because the prior bills haven’t been paid. We were slow pay – we paid 1/6 of the bill each month- so ordering new items was always a gamble as to whether they’d actually show up. New equipment is no longer expected to be procured for projects. Make do with what you have.

      Projects might get pushed out time-wise- until sufficient funds are available to pursue them. So be aware if there’s suddenly no more talk about certain projects that management was gung-ho about just months before.

      If you are dependent upon venture capital, you might get little ‘games’ like no holiday off (i.e. Memorial day or Labor day) unless the company hits certain goals.

      And benefits will be shorted, or even taken away. Or new policies will be established that you cannot cash out accrued vacation time. Delays in annual salary increases will occur. Maybe even no further salary increases until further notice. Maybe even a delay in issuing the regular pay check. We had that happen a few times. Pay day was on Fri, but we didn’t get our checks until the Monday following. Cash was so tight they couldn’t fund the checks until money was wired in from the venture capital folks. And they take their time on things.
      We got to the point that the CFO trolled all offices, labs, etc. rifling through drawers. She snatched up all the stationery supplies. She then doled out pens one at a time. We had to ask her for paper tablets and tape.
      I ended up purchasing sharpies, post-its, paper clips and the like because CFO would not allow them to be purchased. Had to keep these in my purse to keep thieves at bay.

      1. Mashed potato*

        I feel like my upper or even mid management had been clamp down/taking months to buy anything new lmao

        im an hourly wage grunt contracted to the company so no PTO or salary or benefits yet haha

        as for projects, thre’s not much projects going on. it’s either that ONE side project or working on money making stuffs

        1. Not a cat*

          The company I worked for took away access to our day-off/ sick day portal. We had to ask if we had vacation time left/ I think they didn’t want to reveal what is essentially a huge debt to potential investors.

    3. Mike C.*

      Set a Google News alert for your company or your major competitors. What pops up might be very useful to you.

      1. Anon Anon Anon*

        I second this!

        I did internal comms at a tech company for a while and I read all the press. Honestly, the industry can be very gossippy and it’s easy to get unnecessarily alarmed. You have to filter it all for facts and overall trends. But it is informative.

  133. LQ*

    Ack, they just announced the new heads in charge of the agencies and it has a really dramatic kind of thing that I’m exceedingly interested in speculating with someone about but I have meetings all afternoon and I don’t know who would be a good speculator on this thing because everyone tells me it’s not a thing. Which it may not be but I’m incredibly anxious about it.

  134. whatshername*

    My coworkers (including management) have been giggling and guffawing over a remote-controlled fart machine all week. I’m the only one that doesn’t find it funny. TG for headphones.

  135. KatieKate*

    I’m starting to work with a new therapist and my weekly appointments will be 4pm once a week (five minute walk from my office.) Is this language to my boss fine? I’m exempt, if that matters.

    “I have a new standing appointment once a week where I’ll have to leave a little bit early. I’ll get in a little early/stay a little bit later another time that week to make up for it.”

    1. Taking The Long Way Round*

      I think that’s fine but I would also add something like “I just wanted to let you know that…” at the beginning.
      And maybe also ”I want to reassure you that I’ll make the time up by (putting in extra on x day)” but that last bit is just something I’d say to my bosses because they are exceptionally obsessed with the precise amounts of time we put in.
      Funnily enough, they’re not too fussed if we go *over* our allocated hours (rolls eyes).

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I wouldn’t actually do either of those. “I wanted to let you know” is something we were specifically warned not to do in a business writing class, and it makes sense to me. Don’t tell someone “I want to let you know” or “I want to inform you.” Just inform them. And “I want to reassure you…” sounds unnecessarily bowing-and-scraping, if you know what I mean.

        1. LQ*

          I get this, part of it is when are you saying it. If you are just stopping by and knocking on someone’s door you say “Just wanted to let you know” so that they have 3 seconds to orient themselves to what you want and what you might be talking about.

          You don’t always want to speak aloud in a way that is perfectly concise because our brains don’t process (especially when task shifting) quickly enough to handle that. It also makes the conversation feel a little softer but not like an ask.

          Cutting to the chase isn’t always the thing you want to do when speaking because ears only get one chance.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Right. Build in a transition when you’re speaking. Don’t do it when you’re writing a short email.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is making up time like this a commonly done thing in your office? Is informing your boss (rather than asking) that you’ll be away from the office commonly done? Then this seems fine. You might want to be more specific, though. “I’ll be leaving 15 minutes early” instead of “a little bit,” and “I’ll come in 15 minutes earlier on those days” instead of leaving it as a random “I’ll make up 15 minutes at some point during the week.” Unless, of course, that’s how y’all do things.

      1. KatieKate*

        I’m very new to the office, so would it be better to ask her how I should handle it? I’m new to being exempt as well.

  136. Not Me*

    So, the person who put up a Nativity at work struck again. This time, on New Year’s Eve.

    Sometime last weekend, building management removed the holly & lights decoration that they’d placed in our lobby. So, Ms. Nativity decided to put her Nativity there. On 12/31. I know the 12 days of Christmas is a thing, but that’s a bit ridiculous.

  137. Lauren*

    Before Christmas I had to tell someone at work who was bullying me to back off. She did but we had to have a conversation the next day where she told me she didn’t know that what she was saying was upsetting to me and she was just teasing (sure sure the default of bullys everywhere). Then on Wednesday she decided I needed to do some small talk – did I spend time with my mother at Christmas (my mother lives in the same city as me so I see her all the time. It’s not a special thing to spend time with her) and then later on that day she asked if I was getting through all my work? Um yes? She hasn’t talked to me in the last 2 days so hopefully that’s out of the way. She can be very annoying. So that’s been fun.

  138. AG*

    I need some advice on when to bring up non-negotiables during the job hunt process. I live in a large state with three major towns, and the majority of the jobs I’m looking at are based in towns B and C (I live about three hours away in town A). I’m not willing to move to either of these other towns and have been hesitant to apply to positions based in B or C unless the posting says directly that you could work in town A. However, I’ve had numerous people tell me to apply and see what happens and then bring up telecommuting from A/being in the office a few days a month if I get a job offer. Does this seem right? Should I bring it up during an initial interview? Or does applying without being willing to move just make you look bad?

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      I wouldn’t do it, honestly. If the job says it’s located in City B and doesn’t say it’s telecommutable (since with a 3 hour one way thing, that doesn’t seem like something where you’d be willing to do that commute ever day), I’d assume the job is in City B. I think you’d be wasting their interview time just to tell them you can’t actually do the job. I can sort of see if there’s a phone screen bringing it up, but be prepared for them to say no and think badly of you for applying a job you can’t show up for.

      Note, I did work in a place that got badly burned by some people who applied from other states, said they’d move, then said they wouldn’t, tried to negotiate telecommuting, had it AGREED to, then decided they didn’t want to bother with us and dropped out, after we’d spent 3 months trying to onboard them.

      As it is right now, I’ll apply to jobs elsewhere if it says telework in the listing, but more and more of them now will outright specify “this is not a virtual position”. I guess my old place wasn’t the only one that got burned.

      1. ArtK*

        Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Job listings don’t always have everything relevant in them. Assuming that telework isn’t a possibility simply because it’s not in the listing is a bad idea.

    2. Little Bean*

      I’d put it in your cover letter – that you are looking for a position that will allow you to telecommute/would only require being in the office a few days a month. That way, you’re being upfront with them and if it’s something they’d consider, they can bring you in for an interview. If you were talking about maybe working from home 1 or 2 days a week AND it wasn’t an non-negotiable for you, then I’d say you could wait until you have an offer and ask, but telecommuting most of the time is not something that is likely to be ok in most jobs.

  139. Deloris Van Cartier*

    I feel a little bamboozled and I’m not sure how to handle the situation. A few people have left at my job recently and I agreed to help out on one of our fundraisers as I thought it would be a great way for me to get more experience and that experience could be helpful when I start job searching. When I was talking about it with my then-manager, she assured me that we would have a discussion about parts of my job that could be removed from my plate. One project was removing the development of a new volunteer program which I wasn’t excited about because of my previous interactions with the manager who was a lot of talk but didn’t actually enforce any of the plans I put forward. But then my supervisor was changed, which was a great thing for me as my old one was not great, but when she talked about it with our ED, I was told that there is no additional money to hire someone to manage the program I thought would be taken off my plate. I am now expected to do my original job, the fundraiser, develop a new volunteer program from scratch and also manage the development of a new donor group. I’m not sure how to push back but I just feel totally overwhelmed and frustrated as they would have had to hire someone to manage this fundraiser but now they can’t hire someone to manage this other program. I know the money is tight but I’ve allowed my annoyance to lose motivation. My current manager is lovely and willing to listen and help me figure out a plan but I don’t think my senior leadership see any problem with this. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. rolling in the deeeeeeeeep*

      Sit down with your new supervisor (and maybe rope in the ED?) and ask to prioritize. Set it out plain: you cannot do all of it. Ask them which is the most important stuff.

      Get it in writing.

      2. Bluebell*

        +1 – you should be showing your supervisor what you have time to do, and she should work with you to help prioritize.

  140. Me*

    I work for a royal jerk. The nicest thing I can say about him is he constantly amazes me with the new wt actual f behavior he exhibits daily.

    Favorite from this week:

    Needs to talk to a specific individual in HR. Call them (on speakerphone), rings a few time goes to voicemail. Normal human being would either leave a message or simply try back later, right? Not this guy. This guy decides this individual must be at their desk and just not answering him. So he calls back. Repeatedly. At least 10 times. All over speakerphone so the entire office can hear him essentially harassing someone. Oh and our phones all have time stamped caller ID so the HR persons phone will show 10+ missed calls, all from him, all back to back.

    1. valentine*

      What if you start speaking back to the voicemail or whatever you hear on speaker? If it’s just ringing, say, “Hello. Hello?”

  141. SheLooksFamiliar*

    Gah. My co-worker – someone I like – is eating lunch near me and he’s smacking his lips with every bite and swallow. He does this every. single. day.

    Wish I’d asked Santa for noise canceling headphones. Not the most urgent matter I’ll have to deal with but he’s driving me a little scooters.

    1. It's me*

      I had a cube mate like that. Slurped coffee and chewed with their mouth open. Luckily he is gone now :-) but my manager did allow me to move cubes before he was let go as she once had to share a cube with him!

    2. Dainty Lady*

      My *husband* does this. If I end up doing the Cellblock Tango one day, it will be because he chewed with his mouth open ONE MORE TIME.

    3. SheLooksFamiliar*

      Yikes, it could be so much worse here! I feel for you both, open-mouthed chewing is worse.

    4. SheLooksFamiliar*

      He’s having a snack now. I’m trying to convince myself I’m hearing a keyboard snick away instead of…well, you know.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t like someone who did this. I keep thinking of the woman who uses her fingers to scoop cake flowers into her mouth and it grosses me right out. Ask him to be quieter or to go elsewhere.

    5. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      Are you me? TWINS! My cube mate (who is a genuinely nice dude all around), is Mr. Preztel and Kettle Chip eater with individual bags of snacks stashed in his desk. Eating anywhere from every 45 to 90 minutes. Plus candy that needs to be individually unwrapped. It is a SAGA.

  142. Audiophile*

    There’s layoffs happening today. I’m safe, as is most of my department. There have been rumors for a while now but it’s still rough.

  143. LGC*

    Totally unrelated to my last post: I accidentally marked an employee as being out due to a sick child. Said employee…needs a lot of handholding (and does not have any kids).

    I immediately got razzed about this.

    It’s been a day.

    (Before anyone says anything about being intrusive: I’ll ask if an employee is sick because that’s a factor in their PTO plan.)

    1. LizB*

      Sympathy. I got a snarky email today, from an employee who also needs a lot of handholding, saying that our department has recently been “riddled with mistakes and confusion”. This is in reference to one problem that occurred while I was on PTO that I fixed as soon as I returned, and one problem that occurred because someone else in the company sent me a document late. Neither of these problems actually impacted this employee, they were just around when other people were dealing with them and cannot handle the slightest bit of uncertainty. I wrote a calm response but I’m honestly pretty annoyed about it. Trying to breathe deeply and look forward to the weekend.

      1. LGC*

        Oh man.

        You handled it pretty well, I think! And I’m not going to lie – I’m also pretty bad with uncertainty, but at least I’ve learned the good sense to just judge them silently for their OBVIOUS inability to do things correctly (I.e., the way I’d do it).

        Seriously though, it sounds like he’s talking out of his behind. I’m hoping he hasn’t ruined your weekend.

  144. Ghostwriter*

    How can I be more compassionate to a coworker who’s frequently out sick with chronic, non-lifethreatening illness(es)? As far as I know she doesn’t have any type of intermittent FMLA arrangement. Our employer puts sick and vacation time into a single budget. We’re friendly, and I feel guilty talking about trips I’m planning when she has significant medical debt and is saving all her days for when she feels ill. Also, I know she feels tremendously guilty about being out all the time, but it’s hard to not be a little resentful when frequent absences mean I’m scrambling to cover her tasks.

    1. Lena Clare*

      I sympathise :)
      You could try freaking out with “thank goodness it’s not me and I have my health”. You also don’t have the debt she has – that must be hard for her.

      You could also look carefully at how it’s affecting your work – if it’s affecting your productivity you can do something about it and discuss it with your boss e.g asking how you can prioritise when your workload increases when she’s absent.

      If it’s not affecting your productivity, it’s a case of putting it out mind and getting on with your work.

      Good luck :)

        1. valentine*

          thank goodness it’s not me
          This isn’t compassionate.

          Separate the coworker’s issues from the decisions that lead you to scramble. Maybe ask your supervisor if there are other options, like a temp.

          1. Ghostwriter*

            It’s usually last-minute callouts, and not more than a couple days at a time, so a temp isn’t really realistic.

          2. Lena Clare*

            Excuse me?!
            Neither is getting grumpy with them or being resentful, all of which are perfectly valid feelings, albeit different ones from compassion. Being grateful for not being in the same position is a way to gain a new perspective on someone you are NOT feeling compassionate for.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      We’re friendly, and I feel guilty talking about trips I’m planning when she has significant medical debt and is saving all her days for when she feels ill. Also, I know she feels tremendously guilty about being out all the time, but it’s hard to not be a little resentful when frequent absences mean I’m scrambling to cover her tasks.

      Maybe try to make these cancel each other out in your head? Yes, you have to cover her tasks when she’s out, which sucks for you. But you get to plan trips that she can’t take, which also sucks for her. So everybody has some suckage in their life, but yours comes with nice vacations.

    3. LizB*

      Are there ways you can work together to make her absences less scramble-inducing for you? Without knowing what work you do, I don’t know exactly what that would look like, but maybe some kind of documentation, or instructions on how to prioritize when her work falls to you? I know I’m much happier covering for someone when I have a decent idea of how to cover effectively and what things I can leave for them.

  145. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

    Hi AAM readers, I’m hoping to find some help. I’m a female working for an environmental company. I have a male coworker in his 40s (not sure if age is relevant) and I’m in my 30s. Let’s call him TMI (too much information). TMI likes to regularly waste people’s time by constantly talking, making what he calls “Dad jokes” (mostly silly puns), sending gifs or funny memes, and in general just be annoying. When he calls me on the phone or chats via Skype, he will spend 20 minutes talking about non-work related things. He will keep me on the phone forever before I can get him to get to the point. He also spends quite a bit of time during the workday posting on social media. Other employees have complained that his constant talking and gif-sending is annoying and distracting. He was actually demoted to a position where he spends most of his day calling customers because he talks SO MUCH.

    TMI and I work together and his completion of his work directly affects how I do mine. He tends to not answer questions via email, or he will send several emails without ever getting to the point. I’ve discovered the most effective way to get him to answer questions is via Skype. On New Year’s Eve I sent him a Skype chat asking about a huge project our boss had assigned. He quickly turned the conversation into his NYE plans and told me that he and his fiancée were “going to make sure the couch worked tonight.”

    I was shocked and disgusted. That was definitely too much information and it made me feel…I can’t even describe how I feel. Skeeved out, creeped out, just…ugh. I dread having to have any kind of conversation with him. While the words he said weren’t vulgar, the meaning was. I have a screenshot and our Skype records are not private.

    My question is, should I report this? In the past, I’ve been a victim of sexual harassment and I never stood up for myself until someone else reported it. This comment may have been innocent and not meant to hurt me, but I don’t want TMI to think this is ok. I want to nip this in the bud before anything can start. My husband told me that it was just a dumb comment, I’m being dramatic, and I shouldn’t report it because it will just cause drama. I’m hurt that he’s minimizing this and I feel like his reaction is exactly what makes females afraid to come forward.

    Does anybody have any advice? Should I talk to HR or should I just let this go? Thanks in advance for your help

    1. TryingToReadHere*

      I’ve been sexually harassed at work before, and I didn’t report it for a long time because I was afraid I would get in trouble or that I’d get the dismissive “he just likes you/he just thinks you’re pretty/he’s just being friendly” excuse. So I can understand why you’re upset, and I’d be skeeved out and creeped out too.

      Is this the only inappropriate thing he’s ever done or said? If so, I wouldn’t report it yet as it’ll be easy for HR to brush it off as an innocent lapse of judgement because “everyone says stupid things sometimes.” But keep the screenshot (and keep a record of any future inappropriate comments) so you can report it in the future if it continues. If he does it again, can you tell him comments like that make you uncomfortable, and you’d appreciate if he could avoid making them in the future? HR will be more likely to take it seriously if you tell him to stop and he keeps doing it. (Though if you don’t say anything and he keeps doing it, you can still report it later and say you were uncomfortable with confronting him.)

      Could you have a meeting with your supervisor to explain how difficult it is to get information from TMI and how he wastes so much of your time that it’s hard for you to get work done? Then ask your supervisor how you should handle it? If you want to indirectly report his inappropriate comment, you could bring up how on New Year’s Eve you asked about the huge project, and instead of answering, TMI discussed his plans to have sex with his fiance that night. He’s already been demoted for talking too much–maybe more complaints will get more consequences.

      1. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

        Thanks, TryingToReadHere. He’s made tons other inappropriate comments in the past, and has continued to after this incident. Although none were sexually related, they were weird. I have a cousin who works for the same company (guy cousin, same age, we’re best friends and more like brother and sister) and TMI has weirdly insinuated I bring my cousin as my date to work parties instead of my husband. TMI also called me his “work wife”, explaining that his fiancée is always telling him what to do, just like I do. These comments are weird and make me quite uncomfortable.

        I’d like to go to my supervisor, but I don’t have the confidence she’ll do anything. She does not like confrontation and will not discipline people. She also plays favorites to the point that the favorites can do whatever they want and never get in trouble, but the non-favorites have to follow the rules to a T or she’ll escalate tiny matters to HER supervisor. I trust HR much more than her.

        Thank you so much for reading my post and responding. I’m still mulling over what to do.

        1. TryingToReadHere*

          He calls you his work wife?! Ewwww! I am grossed out on your behalf. D: I’m so sorry you have to put up with someone who’s both useless and slimy. I hope you find a new job and can escape both TMI and getting laid off. This sounds like a crappy situation all around.

    2. Catleesi*

      Are you at the same level in the organization, or is he below you in hierarchy? (It seems like it but just to make sure) If so, would you be comfortable simply saying to him that his comment was inappropriate and in the future he should keep those kinds of things to himself? Depending on his response to that – you could then determine whether it’s something you need to clue HR/management in on.

      1. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

        Thanks, Catleesi. We are both on the same level, just different departments, but we have the same supervisor. It’s uncomfortable for me, but I think if I write down the words ahead of time and practice what I want to say, I can work up the confidence to tell him to stop.

        What I’m afraid of is pissing off my boss. We were recently bought out by another company in December. One of our two IT guys was laid off three weeks before Christmas (right after his first baby was born). So everybody has been scrambling to find a backup plan. My supervisor has made some comments in passing that suggest my job may get phased out. TMI was on a three-man team, but the other two found new jobs because they were expecting layoffs. So TMI is the only guy left on his team, and I’m afraid of rocking that boat.

        So I’m going to take the weekend to think it over. Thanks so much for reading and responding!

    3. Namey McNameface*

      Definitely not okay. Report it.

      If this creates drama it is his gross comment and not your reporting that caused the drama.

      He sounds like a disgusting human being.

      1. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

        Thanks, Namey McNameFace. I think I needed validation that he is the one being disgusting and I’m not the one causing drama, he is. I appreciate it.

    4. Cerridwen*

      Oh goodness. Please, please report this. Or at the very least keep a record of it.

      Search “Cerridwen” on this thread and look at my post – I swear we could be talking about the same person. In my company you nearly have to commit a serious crime to get a writeup/dismissal. People like TMI never correct their behavior unless something critical happens. In my case I documented and reported until I felt like I was becoming petty and consumed so I stopped. It never got better, but at least it’s on record. You want something like this on record in case it escalates. This is Not Okay work behavior.

      1. Afraid of reporting sexual harassment*

        Thanks, Cerridwan. That sounds a lot like my company! I feel like they will hire anybody who can breathe but not actually do the job. People rarely get fired here; what they usually do is start taking away resources necessary to do our job and make it so miserable that people eventually quit. They don’t want to pay unemployment. I’m actively working on an exit plan.

        Is there a way to search the comments? I’d like to read your post but I’m not sure how to search via the mobile platform. Thank you for reading and commenting.

    5. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      I’m sorry this happened to you, and I’m sorry that your husband reacted in such a dismissive way. I find his reaction pretty concerning. As far as the gross comment, I agree with other commenters that saving the screenshot but waiting to report unless it escalates might be the best move, but you should do what feels right to you.

  146. AnonHowDoesThisWork*

    Looking for advice especially from people who’ve had lengthy medical leave. I’ve just found out I’m going to be having a major-ish surgery soon. I have a lot of PTO banked right now, some of it vacation, some of it sick. When my doctor’s office called me about the surgery they mentioned they’d be mailing me paperwork not only with instructions about prep for the actual procedure but also with “disability paperwork”. I realize some of the answers to my questions might be in that paperwork, but I haven’t received it yet and I’m trying to at least block out my work calendar for when I’ll be out.
    My question is this: before they mentioned that on the phone, it hadn’t occurred to me I’d use/be eligible for disability. I’d planned to use my sick days and when those ran out, some of my vacation time. I expect to have enough to span the recovery and not wipe out my PTO for the year. But if I’m eligible for something else…should I potentially do that instead? Or in addition? Or…how does this work? I have zero experience with this sort of thing as an adult and no parents to ask.
    I know things may vary by state and whatnot, but I guess I’m looking for a sort of broad strokes How Does This Work and What Should I Consider and possibly also What Questions Should I Ask and just generally how to be less completely in the dark.

    1. fposte*

      It’s not just the state but the workplace. Generally there are two things, FMLA, which protects your job for up to twelve weeks of medical leave but doesn’t pay you, and short-term disability, which is an insurance policy that might provide you with compensation while you were out. Your job may (and usually does) require you to use your sick days and vacation days concurrent with FMLA, rather than taking FMLA to save up vacation days for later.

      Your HR is where you need to go for answers here.

      1. AnonHowDoesThisWork*

        Thanks. I guess what I was trying to ask was more so what do I need to know before I talk to HR. I know I need to talk to them in general but was feeling completely ignorant of even how to talk to them or what to ask or what they might be assuming I, as a presumably functional adult, should already know. I’m hoping not to use FMLA in this case because there’s a chance I might have a kid in the next 12 months, and I’m assuming it’d be better to hold onto that. But literally everything I know I about that I know from reading this blog. It’s an I don’t know what I don’t know but I know that what I do know is almost nothing kind of situation.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      In my experience, “disability paperwork” from the doctor’s office just meant a letter saying “Rusty will be unable to work from March 1 to March 31.” It can be used for FMLA and/or disability benefits. Like fposte said, a lot of this is workplace-dependent. Taking FMLA doesn’t mean you don’t use sick and/or vacation time. Your disability coverage may not kick in immediately, and it may (probably does?) pay less than your actual job.

    3. Temperance*

      You should definitely talk to your HR department and see what kinds of leave you are eligible for. I was out for 6 weeks with a medical emergency, and received full disability pay from my org after I used one week of PTO to cover. It was awesome not to totally destroy my PTO balance.

    4. LNLN*

      Once you have been off work for 1 week, short term disability (STD) can start. You can use PTO that week to get paid. I encourage you to not use all your PTO during your medical leave (if you can afford it) because your recovery will take a lot of work and you might well want a vacation later this year. STD usually pays only 50-80% of your regular pay. Good luck!

  147. JustAskingForAFriend*

    How can I get my boss to see that our workplace is dysfunctional? Our ops director left in June and since then it’s been an absolute cluster. Someone just learned in December that since June he’d been someone’s boss, for example. I finally had to tell my boss that they give me anxiety and confessed I’d seen a counselor for it. I think my boss truly has no idea that the ops director pretty much ran the business, and didn’t delegate because he saw there was no point and he just ran things as he needed to to keep things going.

    1. fposte*

      You don’t just want them to see it, though, right? You want them to fix it?

      And I don’t think they’re going to. I think it’s time for you to look elsewhere.

    2. Deryn*

      I would think about what are the specific things that make it dysfunctional, or maybe what the biggest contributors are, and then think about if it’s feasible to improve those things. Bringing on a fabulous new ops director sounds like it would be ideal, but if that’s not in the cards, what could be done? Better delineation of who takes care of various tasks? A stronger game-plan going into projects? Clarifying hierarchy? (I’m just sort of tossing out examples, since I don’t know the specifics of your work.) I think proposing specific solutions to some of the biggest obstacles you encounter could highlight the situation for your boss, especially if you give it the context of “Since so-and-so left, we’ve been having issues with XYZ” rather than just “This place is chaos!” (Even if the reality is that this place really is chaos!)

      1. Kathenus*

        Very much this. Think about 2-3 specific things that could be done or changed to make it a better workplace and propose some concrete ideas or solutions to address these. It’s likely to be more effective if the solutions are realistic within current resources – for example saying doubling the number of employees to reduce workload may be a great idea but it’s not feasible for most organizations. But suggesting deciding upon, writing, and distributing an organization chart so that all reporting structures are known and communicated is a very do-able idea.

        And consider low-hanging fruit, even if it’s not the top problem, as an initial focus. If you have five things you’d like to see improved, #3 might be the easiest/quickest, so you might suggest that one even though there are two that are higher priorities, because success on #3 might be a great stepping stone to other improvements. Good luck!

        1. Deryn*

          Your second paragraph is good point! Any small improvement is inching you away from “complete and utter dysfunction” and towards “dysfunctional but bearable”.

    3. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      So for 6 months someone didn’t realize they had a direct report?

      That’s impressive dysfunction. Why am I imagining sitcom style hijinks and misunderstandings,. Honestly I’m not real sure what you can do here other than offering suggestions.

      Boss, there seemed to be a mix-up with Jill and Jack… I think someone needs to look at our process for transferring employees when we have someone leave.
      Boss, I think Otto Ops actually did all the teapot painting when he was here, because the teapot painters aren’t that good. Should you maybe look into that department, as far as I know there hasn’t been any teapots painted since Otto left in 6 months ago?

      Have you considered tracking down Otto Ops Manager to see where they ended up? You wouldn’t have to answer that pesky “Why are you leaving your current job” question.

      1. JustAskingForAFriend*

        He moved across the country to take care of an elderly parent.
        And he knew there was problems …
        As far as his “tasks” … there are things that we are just starting to figure out because he preferred the phone and not email so there isn’t record of a lot of things.
        I think there’s also a lot of gaslighting going on where we’re told to do something one way and then the next week chastised for doing it that way when we should have actually done it a different way. And a lot of not giving direction, telling us to figure it out ourselves, and then being “talked to” because we didn’t do it the way the boss would have done it.

        I may be past the point where I really care, but I think if we got a person from outside the company (like the Bobs in Office Space) it would force the issue. Currently, everyone is so apathetic and assumes that things are messed up, and there is only urgency to what Boss wants done now, so placing the order for next season’s teapot paint (for example) only gets done when it’s time to paint those teapots. Suggestions about non-priority items frequently get shot down as not important but then later, they’re used as examples as to what we “should have been doing.”

        It’s sort of making me crazy. I second-guess myself all the time now like I can’t remember if I’m forgetting something or missed something … I’m trying to find a new job but honestly the $$ here is amazing. And 2 of the other higher-level employees (it’s a really flat company) feel the same way. So … yeah.

  148. manuka honey*

    My cubemate likes to gossip with her work friends at her cubicle. It’s super annoying. If they gossip, can’t they do it more covertly? I can clearly hear what they’re saying and who they’re talking about. I know I can just put earbuds in but still UGH I hate that toxicity.

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      Me too! They whisper, which makes it even worse. It’s not more considerate. Considerate would be not bringing the drama in the first place.

  149. Snickerdoodle*

    I have a bit of an update that’s part of an ongoing saga. I have posted a couple of times about a creepy guy who rode my vanpool: He had gradually escalated from inviting me to lunch to trying to invite himself to events in my personal life to finally discussing sexual assault cases in the media in a very victim-blaming way more or less nonstop, and I documented everything, complained to my supervisors, and he got told to not contact me again and quit riding vanpool. I saw him in the parking garage once when I drove in rather than take vanpool due to a dental appointment, and he saw me and looked like he wanted to say something but didn’t. It terrified me, so I was careful to leave a few minutes early and thusly avoid him on the odd occasion I drove in after that. I saw him a couple of times anyway, but he didn’t see me.

    Anyway, this morning on vanpool, one rider (“Jan”) asked another rider (“Tasha”) how the creepy guy (“Fergus”) was doing. Tasha and Fergus work together, so Tasha has mentioned Fergus a few times in passing. Tasha said Fergus has been quiet lately, which I privately attributed to the talk his supervisors had with him about me, but then she added that he’d gotten in trouble for looking at his phone throughout a recent meeting. Tasha was weirdly defensive of Fergus and said she didn’t see why him looking at his phone through an entire meeting was a big deal (!)—I have to wonder what Tasha does all day. Anyway, Fergus’s supervisor asked him about using his phone all through their meeting, and Fergus claimed he’d done so because he was bored and trying to stay awake (!). Jan pointed out that that wasn’t a good response and reminded Tasha that when Fergus was riding vanpool, he had often mentioned job postings he’d seen online. Jan concluded that Fergus was probably not happy with his job and looking to move on.

    Tasha amended her defensiveness to guess that maybe it wasn’t the first time Fergus had been caught being inattentive or that maybe he was already in trouble for something else and that’s why the boss was watching him now. I guessed the latter; I suspect his supervisors have been keeping an eye on him for any other problems they weren’t aware of prior to my complaint, but I didn’t say anything. I didn’t want to mention my issue with Fergus because it sounded like Jan and Tasha weren’t aware of what had happened (and they didn’t need to know), they both seem to like Fergus and would therefore probably not believe my complaints (Jan piled onto the victim blaming of assault survivors one time, which I’m pleased to note I shut down immediately), and I would rather not bring up the matter if I don’t need to.

    Hearing that Fergus is being unusually quiet, not attentive in meetings, looking at other jobs, and being watched by his boss leads me to think that he will not be working here much longer. I don’t care one way or another beyond being relieved at not even having to worry about seeing him in the parking garage on days I drive to work instead of taking vanpool. I don’t anticipate anything immediate, but I think the writing is on the wall at this point.

    Anyway, I wonder how often creepy people at work turn out to have other performance issues. Is it common? Are their issues usually limited to perving on other employees? A lot of updates here seem to be “they got fired/quit because of that and/or other issues” or “*I* got sick of their sh!t and quit.” I suspect I will have a “creepy dude quit or got fired because of being creepy and blatantly surfing the Internet during meetings” update in a few months’ time, but I thought I’d ask how common it is for bad employees to have many issues or just one big one.

    1. MsM*

      I don’t think it’s unusual: people who can’t maintain appropriate boundaries or recognize what does and doesn’t constitute acceptable workplace behavior are probably going to struggle with that in multiple areas. It’s the ones who make an effort to cover their tracks or follow the letter of the law while bending it as far as they can get away with that you need to be really careful around.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        Ew, yeah, that’s exactly what he’s doing, too. I noticed all the language he used in the emails to me where he tried inviting me to lunch or sent me some non-work-related thing was VERY strictly professional; it SCREAMED “See, I didn’t technically cross a line at all; what are you so bent out of shape about?” I also noticed that when I made it clear that I didn’t agree with his opinions about assault victims, he just waited till I had earbuds in, lowered his voice, and kept right on saying the same things to the other riders. He also said some pretty inappropriate things about his wife and sounded like he really despised her, so I suspect that whatever’s going on at home is coloring his workplace problems or vice versa.

        I was wondering how common the correlation was or if these people see some boundaries but not others (e.g. “Of course I’d never steal from the workplace!” but doesn’t get that perving on somebody, no matter how much you rules-lawyer it, isn’t okay).

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve only known a few creepy people at work and didn’t have to work with most of them for more than a week or two, but they were not good employees overall. One was hired at a university (against some informal recommendations based on his behavior around female students) and had issues keeping grad students in his lab.

      Another was forced out of at least one job where he worked with undergrads and tried to be inappropriate with some female undergrads who fortunately reported it pretty quickly.

      A third seemed to be thought well of by older coworkers (people he didn’t creep on) but avoided by younger female employees because of his over familiarity, and was the type to complain openly and often about his low* salary (it was totally commensurate with his skill/experience and the company is known for high salaries in general, so in no way was he getting short changed from an objective standpoint), gossip about everyone and make gross comments about people’s bodies, and grouse about the amount of work he had to do.

  150. TheWorstEmployeeInTheWorld*

    How do you deal with your feelings after a demotion? I’m lucky in that I didn’t suffer a decrease in pay or a change in title, but I am no longer in a managerial role and some of my duties have been assigned to my co-workers, who have received promotions as a result. I’m all for taking responsibility when it’s warranted, but this has been the result of completely dysfunctional management from the owner and I am so frustrated at not having a voice and not being able to stand up for myself. This place is run like a dictatorship and my boss/the owner wants to be involved in every little thing, even though it’s become clear to me that he doesn’t actually understand what I do. A few examples of the dysfunction for context:
    -Yelling at me in front of the office and then apologizing to me in private when he realized he was wrong
    -Complaining that I don’t provide him with information when it’s in a report I generate and send him weekly. Turns out he doesn’t actually look at this report!
    -Gossiping from the owner about other employees, sharing deeply personal information we have no business knowing
    -Blaming me for “mistakes” that weren’t covered in my training and not accepting, “I wasn’t aware I needed to do that but I’ll adjust the procedure to include that” as an explanation

    I find myself wanting to cry or throw things in anger, which is so uncharacteristic of me. I’m having a hard time reining in my emotions and focusing on my work. I know it doesn’t help that I feel like my co-workers must be thinking that I’m a failure, which is not a helpful thing for me to focus on. I’m embarrassed and sad and angry about the whole situation, but mostly I feel helpless. I’d like to hunker down and do such a stellar job that my boss sees me as an asset again, but I know that’s impossible since the goal post will just be moved again and again, just as it has been in the past year and a half since my promotion. Any advice on getting through this? It’s been a few weeks since he told me and he just informed my co-workers, so it still feels very fresh and painful.

    As for job searching (because, believe me, that was the first thing I started doing) prospects are bleak. I’d be looking at a 20-50% pay cut if I left. So yeah, even with the dysfunction and the hurt feelings and the lack of confidence in myself I feel like I have to stay. I’ll keep my eyes open in case something promising crops up, but for now I need to make this situation work.

    1. Fiona*

      You’re already SO ahead of the game in that you realize that this place is dysfunctional and YOU are not the problem. (A lot of people struggle with that!) Are you able to do as much nourishing stuff outside of work as possible? See friends after work, go to a dance class, join some sort of team, take an art class, volunteer to walk dogs, anything? Even if you’re exhausted from work, it actually gives one energy to do those types of things.

      Also, unless you’re going to be homeless or unable to feed your kids, I wouldn’t immediately dismiss a 20% pay cut for a new job. It sounds like this one is only going to be more toxic and damaging the longer you’re there…

      1. TheWorstEmployeeInTheWorld*

        Thank you! I’ll admit that AAM is a large part of why my eyes have been opened to the dysfunction. What a great voice of reason and sanity Alison and the readers bring! You’re so right about the exhaustion factor. I really slowed down on working out due to the stress of work. I’ve recommitted to that and am currently doing a run/walk challenge, which gives me something to look forward to outside of work. Plus it’s rewarding seeing those completed miles add up. I could definitely use a feeling of accomplishment in something I do since I no longer feel that way about work. I do feel more energetic after just a few weeks of stepping it up. It’s something I’ll make sure I keep doing no matter what happens with work.

    2. WellRed*

      I think the only thing you can do, short of getting a new job (which, even without the demotion, sounds like you needed to do), is, as you say, hunker down and do the best job you can, though I am not optimistic that will be recognized. I am sorry this happened to you. Also, can you take a few days off to scream and through things and get some of it out of your system?

    3. alex b*

      I’m so sorry; that sounds awful.
      I would hunker down with no hopes or expectations, get work done, and find joy outside of work. Enjoy the money that you get to keep earning for fewer duties and headaches!
      Also fwiw I would guess that astute coworkers pick up on what’s really happening here and do not judge you poorly. They’re probably reassessing their own career plans due to the crappy treatment your higher-ups demonstrate.

    4. LQ*

      My biggest suggestion is to care less. It sounds like you really tried hard to make it work and put a lot into it. Pulling back emotionally from it. Focusing outside of work on the things that are YOU things. What defines you, what makes you you as a person, not as an employee.

      Also, change clothes when you get home. Ban talking about work from your home if at all possible (I give myself 5 minutes to stomp around my apartment and whine like a child and then I roll my eyes at myself and shift gears and am not allowed to talk about it more). I think that working from home makes separating/coping harder, but if you do, physically limit that space to only Work things and even visually close it off if possible. If at all possible make limits on your work intruding into the rest of your life. Pull back from mixing personal and professional. And take actual lunch breaks.

      1. TheWorstEmployeeInTheWorld*

        I laughed at your description of yourself in the five minutes you allow yourself to vent. That sounds like something I’d do. I think that’s such a great idea, to limit talking about this at home. My husband is wonderfully encouraging and supportive but we’re both fully on the “bitch about the boss” bandwagon so it gets to be an echo chamber around here. I’m sure that’s making it all the more difficult to detach at the end of the day. Thank you for your advice!

        1. LQ*

          Absolutely, when you loop through that boss is shitty feedback loop it makes things much harder. I actually set a timer on days where I want to vent until I run out of complaints. At the end of the 5 minutes I change into house clothes and do something else.
          Good luck!

        2. Not a cat*

          My gosh…are you me four years ago. Similar situation, however, I stayed another two years, eventually got my title/rank back, then had a heart attack (almost died). And then…the company fired me my first day back to work.

          As a friend said after the heart event, “please be careful with yourself, stress will kill you…”

          1. TheWorstEmployeeInTheWorld*

            Oh you poor thing! I’m so sorry you went through that. Not that being fired ever feels like a good thing, but maybe in this case it was for the best. I hope you’re working somewhere much, much better now.

  151. motherofdragons*

    Does anyone use the same e-mail platform for both their work and personal accounts? Our office is migrating to the Google suite soon, and I currently use Gmail for my personal account. I’m worried (perhaps without basis) that it will be confusing to use the same platform for both. I have visions of accidentally sending personal e-mails from my work account, and vice versa. Any tips on keeping them working well separately?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t use Gmail, but does it let you customize colors or select a theme? If so, making sure your work and personal accounts have very different appearances could help.

        1. De-Archivist*

          I do this. My personal gmail has one icon, photo, and layout associated with the account. My work gmail has different ones. My bookmarks bars look different too. Three years and counting with no mixups.

          1. motherofdragons*

            I didn’t even think about switching up the layout…sounds like differentiating as many features as possible will really help. It’s encouraging that this has worked for you for so long. Thank you!

    2. Elle*

      Yikes, I’d be paranoid too. What kind of phone do you use? Do you have to have work email on your phone? I would just not log into home email on the work computer, and vice versa, if possible. You can also add a personal avatar to make it more obvious.
      I ask about the phone thing, because with my iPhone I had this problem and it was awful. Even when I replied to someone, sometimes it would change who the ‘from’ was automatically to my personal account. But with my Pixel, I have several gmail accounts and the contact lists and inboxes are completely separate so its not an issue. You can also download the gmail app for iphone and it works the same way, thats how I got around my iphone issue. You have to physically change which account you’re looking at, and you can’t accidentally send to a work contact if you’re viewing your personal account.

      1. motherofdragons*

        I have an iPhone. I currently have both work and personal accounts set up in my Mail app and boy do I feel you about how annoying it can be! Using the Gmail app instead sounds like a good plan. Thank you!!

    3. Liet-Kinda*

      This was the case at my last job. I selected a different gmail theme for each account – my personal one is a slot canyon with all oranges and reds, and my work one was a forest with blues and greens, so it was visually distinct enough to feel like two different things.

      1. motherofdragons*

        I was wondering if something so simple could be effective, but it sounds like it is! Thanks so much for this tip.

    4. Grapey*

      I do. I also rarely send emails from my personal account.

      Not sure if there is a feature for phones, but on desktop, I changed my theme (background) for my work email to look completely different than my personal one so I can tell immediately which account I’m browsing at the moment. I’ve been doing this for about 12 years and I’ve never mixed up email accounts.

      1. motherofdragons*

        I’m thinking that for desktop at least, very different themes is the way to go. And for phones I like the idea of using the Gmail app, which sounds like it keeps things nice and separate. Thank you!

    5. Tara S.*

      I use different browsers. So, if I’m checking twitter or AAM, I use Chrome, but for all work stuff, I’m on Firefox. That helps, especially since only one browser is signed into my personal gmail, the other the work email, so they don’t cross streams.

      1. motherofdragons*

        Oh this is a clever hack…I currently use only Chrome, but this is doable (we have both Safari and Firefox on our work laptops). Thanks!

    6. Little Bean*

      Yes, I use google for both. It can be confusing, especially because I have both accounts on my phone. On the computer, it’s usually pretty obvious which one I’m in because they look different, but it gets tricky when I’m trying to upload something from my phone, for example. It’s not just 2 email accounts, it’s two google drive accounts, two calendars, etc. I’ve just had to get in the habit of always double checking which account I’m in.

      1. motherofdragons*

        This has been my fear, because I use Google for all kinds of things in my personal life and I’m really nervous about crossing the streams.

  152. Restructure Hellion*

    Thanks everyone for your help on the open thread last week.
    I thought things would improve after all the year end deadlines, but no. Now they are adding even more work. They may be some small process improvements, but it looks like the business plan is for my team to “make it work” by working overtime for the foreseeable future.
    I’m coming to the conclusion that the restructured position is no longer a good fit. I was in my prior role for 7 years, so it’s already time to move on. Effectively they have at least tripled my workload with no increase in compensation except the OT. I don’t want to “mommy track” myself but I have a family and a life and I’m just not being paid enough to have a “day job AND a night job”.
    They’ve made their business decision and now I have to make mine. I suppose being very matter of fact like that is the way to go while searching, right?

    1. TheWorstEmployeeInTheWorld*

      Yup, this is similar to what I went through when we had a change in ownership and restructuring as a result. I hung in there for a year and a half hoping I could work extra hard to support the company and tough it out until things stabilized. I now wish I hadn’t as I’ve become the focal point for all of the blame for mistakes and things that were missed as a result of my inaccurate and inadequate training. Here I am essentially being demoted and we’re restructuring things again. I see how messy this new transition is going to be as there’s even less guidance and structure this time around. I’m sure there are some instances where companies pull out of a slump and things do actually improve, but if you have the skills to look for a new (and better!) job then go for it. It sounds like it’s truly a case of, “It’s not me, it’s you (them)” in your situation. Better to abandon ship now than to try to hang on and find yourself in an even more desperate situation later. Good luck with the job search!

      1. Restructure Hellion*

        Thanks. That sounds like exactly the outcome I hope to avoid. Everyone in my role is making mistakes we never did before. We were experts at our prior roles but are now supposed to do everything with very little training and absurd expectations. Better to leave now before my performance (and mental health) deteriorates further.

  153. Bad Vibes*

    Hello! I’ve only lurked before, but I have a question. I work in the office about two days per week, in a pretty standard cubicle setup. The person who sits in the neighboring cubicle (so the “walls” are connected and shared) jiggles his leg without thinking. The shaking is enough that I can actually see my computer keyboard moving, and it is extremely distracting to me. I breathe a sigh of relief every time he gets up to get more coffee. So, my question: I can’t say anything about this, can I? He doesn’t know he’s doing and he can’t control it, can he? If that’s the case, it would just result in two people feeling bad without improving the situation.
    Additional information: we’re moving offices in the summer, so it’ll be easy for me to have a quiet word about not being seated near him then. That’s seven months away though! Also, I have asked him to turn down his music before because he didn’t realize how much our company headsets leaked noise, and he was totally nice about it. I haven’t heard his music since.

    1. PB*

      You can definitely bring it! Like your neighbor, I am an unconscious leg-jiggler. I’ve had people bring it up to me before if it was distracting to them. I’d rather know than not know. Although I do jiggle my leg unconsciously, it *is* something I can control, if I think about it. Granted, I’ll still slip up, but I’ll remember, and put a stop to it. And I can almost guarantee someone’s mentioned it before. This probably won’t be the first he’s hearing about it. Since he was cool about turning down his music, he’ll probably be understanding about this, too. Please feel free to bring it up!

        1. Bad Vibes*

          I mean, bringing it up is a valid method of “bringing it”, depending on your definition. Thanks for the advice!

    2. Liet-Kinda*

      “So, my question: I can’t say anything about this, can I? He doesn’t know he’s doing and he can’t control it, can he?”

      Yes.

      “Hey, Cubeighbor? I super hate to bother you again, but 2hen you shake your leg, it actually moves the cube wall so much it shakes my workstation. Could you try not to?”

      “Oh um gee sure yeah I’m sorry, uh um!”

      “No need to apologize! Have a great day!”

      It’s probably unconscious, but that’s not a reason for you not to ask and it’s not a reason why he can’t control it. It’d be the same thing if he tunelessly whistled while wearing headphones or some other thoughtless but annoying habit – yes, it’s not malicious, but the people around them have a right to ask them to stop.

      1. BlueWolf*

        I think this is the perfect way to ask. As long as you keep the tone light and matter-of-fact, I don’t think he would have a problem. He probably just does it unconsciously and doesn’t realize it is shaking your cube also.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      If you are a social coward as I tend to be, you can deflect slightly by seeming confused. “Sorry, is something jiggling? My keyboard is moving. Oh, sorry, is that your leg? Ah, okay. Could I ask you to try to turn the other way so the desk doesn’t shake? Thanks so much!”

    4. Reba*

      Of course you can! Just because someone’s unaware of something doesn’t mean you can’t point out that it annoys you (or is dangerous or offensive or whatever) and ask them to stop it.

      That doesn’t they’ll stop, as this is probably a highly ingrained habit, but they might try. The headphones thing bodes well.

      1. Reba*

        Meant to add, it’s not as if you’re accusing cubemate of doing something bad or even embarrassing. Just informing them how something affects you and asking for their help fixing it. Go forth, and do this fairly low stakes assertive thing!

    5. Trixie*

      At my previous position, our team occupied a former house and including all the joys of older housing including the plumbing, wiring, and thin walls/floors. With staff on first and second floor, my desk was on first floor. A new colleague joined the team and moved to empty desk on second floor, immediately above my desk. Almost immediately, I could hear that toe tapping from his floor/my ceiling. Pretty quickly, I asked him him about it and hated to but otherwise it was going to drive me crazy. He was as nice as could be and I don’t remember any other incidents.

  154. mf*

    I recently got an offer for a temp position in California. The was job was at a medium-sized corporation (around 300 people); the offer and negotiation happened through the temp agency.

    During the negotiation phase, I verbally asked the temp agency recruiter (let’s call her Beth) who I was communicating with if she could provide me with the salary range. (My understanding is that under a new state-wide law, employers in California are required to disclose the pay range as long as the request is reasonable.) Beth dodged my question but said if I were able to provide my salary requirements, she would follow up with the company to see if that was in their range. I did not give her my range in this conversation but told her I would follow up after I thought about it.

    After this initial conversation, I sent Beth an email with some information. I also included in this email a request that she contact the employer’s HR department regarding the pay scale for this position. When Beth responded to my email, she dodged the question again: “What exactly do you mean by the ‘pay scale’ for this position? Are you looking for a certain pay rate or salary range for this position? If so, I can see if there is any wiggle room.” I found this response to be pretty questionable-I can’t imagine she didn’t know what I meant by “pay scale.”

    I responded in writing again: “By pay scale, I mean the company-approved salary range for the role. Of course, I understand that the salary is based on certain factors such as qualifications and experience, which may determine what number within that range you are able to offer me.”

    After this, Beth called me and said she didn’t have the pay scale for the job, nevermind the fact that I had asked her to obtain it from the employer. I told her that my understanding was that if there was a pay scale for the role, she’d be legally obligated to disclose it to me. She claimed she wasn’t aware of this new law. I said I’d send her the relevant information via email. (It’s worth nothing that this conversation was pleasant and professional on both my part and Beth’s part. I tried to take your advice and kept my tone upbeat and matter-of-fact.)

    I sent her an email that cited the law I was referring to: “Thanks for reaching out for clarification regarding my request for the pay scale! Here’s the law I’m referring, but if I’m misunderstanding it, please let me know: CA labor code 432.3. (a) An employer shall not rely on the salary history information of an applicant for employment as a factor in determining whether to offer employment to an applicant or what salary to offer an applicant. (b) An employer shall not, orally or in writing, personally or through an agent, seek salary history information, including compensation and benefits, about an applicant for employment. (c) An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment.”

    Finally Beth called me and said she didn’t think there was a company-approved salary range for the role. Again, Beth’s response didn’t seem plausible to me; in my experience, there’s always a pay scale for open positions. How can an employer plan their budget for the year if they don’t know how much they plan to pay out in compensation?

    By this point, I was tired of all the back and forth, so I gave Beth a number. Beth contacted the company and they were willing to accommodate my salary request, but I didn’t take the job for other reasons. (In the end, I accepted an offer from another employer. My new job is full time, a more senior position, and pays more!!)

    FWIW, I decided to push for the salary range in this instance because I could tell the company really, REALLY wanted to hire me. I was also employed at a pretty decent job and knew I might have other offers coming down the pipeline. If I had been desperate to get this job, I wouldn’t have pushed so much.

    Looking back, I’m wondering if I handled this negotiation correctly. Was I in the wrong to keep pushing for the salary range? Was Beth in the wrong to not disclose the salary range? And if she was, what else should I have said?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I love the way you handled this. Beth sounds unrealistically obtuse (“what do you mean by pay scale?” seriously?) and I suspect she was stonewalling you.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is it possible, if the company really REALLY wanted you, their instructions to Beth were to give you the pay you wanted? Maybe she/they didn’t want to scare you off by quoting something that was UNDER what you wanted? I mean it’s still all really dumb and cagey if that’s the case; she should have just said the range, then emphasized that it was open to negotiation and not final. But maybe Beth’s just bad at what she’s doing.

      1. ArtK*

        Even if that’s what they wanted, when mf told Beth about the law, she should have taken that back to them and figured out what to do.

        A lot of companies in California are going to have a tough time adjusting to the shoe being on the other foot. *They* have to take the risk in naming a number first, instead of the candidate taking all the risk.

    3. Kat in VA*

      I don’t think you were wrong at all. The law requires it, you asked for it, and you got a bunch of hwah hwah hwah in return.

      There’s ALWAYS a salary for the role – otherwise why would people apply for it? The fact she didn’t want to give it to you was shifty in the extreme. Either she’d been told to not disclose it (which is illegal in California) or she didn’t want to disclose it (for reasons of her own).

      I think ya did good.

    4. LilySparrow*

      This is really, really crappy.

      You see, the temp agency absolutely knows what they are getting paid to fill that position – usually around double the rate they pay to the temp. So in that sense, it was true – the employer doesn’t set the “pay scale” for the position. They set the amount they are paying to the agency. The agency sets the amount they offer to the temp.

      Beth was trying to maximize the agency’s profit margin by giving you the runaround, and pretending that because the “employer” didn’t set the pay scale, there wasn’t one.

      I don’t know how the new law applies to agencies, but I think you should report her.

    5. mf*

      Thanks for all the responses! Glad to know I wasn’t completely misreading the situation.

      Like @LilySparrow said, I expect Beth was trying to maximize the agency’s profits. In retrospect, I’m glad I didn’t take this job. I’ve never had any issues nearly so weird or red flagged with my current employer. Just goes to show: this kind of ridiculousness isn’t necessary and you don’t have to put up with it as a job hunter.

  155. Batshua*

    Update on the saga:

    So, after the failed annual eval, I took all those papers to the ADHD specialist who has been perusing them. I see him later in the month. I am hoping for coaching and an accommodations letter that actually addresses what I need.

    However, my bilateral tendonitis went from minor occasional annoyance to extremely painful with no warning and I had to be put on light duty. It took a few weeks to see an orthopedist, and by the time she saw me, I wasn’t having intense pain anymore, so she gave me a return to work letter.

    I have not been returned to work. I have been detailed to another location ostensibly pending HR’s guidance. I don’t know if my job is in jeopardy, if they want to transfer me, if they’re weighing their options or what.

    I don’t know where I’ll report on any given day. Every so often my supervisor changes the instructions. As of yesterday morning, I was supposed to be working here until Friday of next week at least. As of yesterday afternoon, it was Monday for sure, and await further instructions on the rest of the week. I don’t know if this has to do with the fact that I started requesting my travel reimbursement, or if it was merely coincidence.

    They have me doing the more mind-numbingly boring work. It’s necessary and we have a lot of it. I wonder if I’ve been assigned with the intention of trying to convince me to quit. Thankfully, everyone here is kind and friendly and patient, and I’m allowed to listen to music of my choice, which makes the job FAR easier.

    I’m almost … happy here?

    But I also know it’s temporary and I find this whole situation unnerving and incredibly anxiety-producing. Maybe that’s the point?

    My union rep said we should speak to national EEO based on various things that are continuing to happen. I feel like I don’t have anything to lose at this point, so maybe it’ll happen.

  156. Amber Rose*

    This is only tangentially work related but it has cheered up my whole Friday. I got a cardboard deer head for Christmas. Like, looks like one of those taxidermy things you see in bars only cardboard. I had no idea what to do with this thing, it’s so bizarre.

    My boss wants me to put it up in our office. :D
    We’re gonna put hats and googly eyes on it. Next Friday’s open thread, I will attempt to share pictures.

    2. Little Bean*

      My coworker has one of those. He (the deer) wears a Hogwarts tie, and in the holiday season he picked up a Santa hat.

  157. PDXCats*

    In my new job hunt, I found a position that sounds intriguing. It’s a temporary role (3 months) as an intern. The problem is that the job listing specifies that it pays slightly above minimum wage…and is a 1099 contractor role. My understanding is that internships aren’t eligible for these kind of positions, or if they were, would pay much more to cover all the taxes and insurance and other benefits that would otherwise come out of a paycheck. Does anyone have any insight about how I should approach this if I am selected for an interview?

    1. BlueWolf*

      Hmm, it is definitely likely they are misclassifying their interns. It happened to my fiance when he first started out as an intern and the state tax department found out and went after his company. He ended up having to file amended tax returns (the company’s accountant did it for him) and got some money back since he was paying taxes as a 1099 contractor instead of an employee.

      1. PDXCats*

        That’s something I was concerned about; thank you for letting me know how things resolved for your fiance!

  158. Fiona*

    You’re already SO ahead of the game in that you realize that this place is dysfunctional and YOU are not the problem. (A lot of people struggle with that!) Are you able to do as much nourishing stuff outside of work as possible? See friends after work, go to a dance class, join some sort of team, take an art class, volunteer to walk dogs, anything? Even if you’re exhausted from work, it actually gives one energy to do those types of things.

    Also, unless you’re going to be homeless or unable to feed your kids, I wouldn’t immediately dismiss a 20% pay cut for a new job. It sounds like this one is only going to be more toxic and damaging the longer you’re there…

  159. Lynne879*

    I hate it when I’m asked about salary history because I feel like it’s the employer’s way of underpaying you, and it’s always one of those things that you’re required to fill out.

    I’ve been putting in zeroes when I fill out the salary history, but I’ve been wondering if that affects me getting a call back. Should I just suck up my pride & put down the salary history? What have you guys done?

    1. Someone Else*

      This probably doesn’t help, but I moved to a state that made it illegal for employers to do that. Literally. You could potentially lobby your local representative to support such a thing. That doesn’t help with the applications themselves, but big picture, I think that’s the real answer here. Unless you’re talking to an actual human and have a smooth-as-Alison script for explaining to them why you think it’s best not to do that. But that’s also probably higher level than just being at the application stage. Still if enough people keep doing it/saying it, maybe employers will finally realize they lose good candidates this way.

  160. Trying*

    My boss keeps asking me about things she never mentioned and gets frustrated when I don’t know what she’s talking about. Example: “Susie Q, did you remember to send out the forms to all the supervisors, get their signatures, and collect them back again?” What forms? I reply, “Oh, I didn’t realize there were forms that needed to get out. If you point me to where I can find them, I’ll be happy to take care of it.” Her response: “Ugh I told you about it last week — I’ll do it myself.” Unless I have a REALLY scary memory problem, she did NOT tell me last week. And this has happened a few times with different action items lately. I’m under the assumption that she means to tell me something and then forgets, because if she tells me something verbally I use a sticky note to jot it down, or if she emails, I flag it immediately and have neither pertaining to these. It’s making me feel as though I’m going crazy and either having blackouts, or disappointing her by not knowing something needs done (even when she didn’t tell me). She seems equally frustrated, but more with my perceived incompetence. What should I do??

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Do you think you could safely say “It feels like either you’re forgetting to tell me things, or I’m forgetting you’ve told me. Would it be possible for you to email all requests to me in the future, just so we’re both on the same page? Because I’ve noticed that we never have this kind of miscommunication when you do email me, so if we stick to that method, neither of us is relying on our memory.”

      1. Trying*

        I have previously requested that she send everything via email before but it’s really not her bag and she doesn’t remember to email. Our office doors are literally feet apart, so she’s often stopping by in the doorway to say something here or there when she thinks of it (hence my need for sticky notes). We have worked together for 6 years and this has never been a problem, but the last few weeks the frequency has increased and I’m honestly just paranoid I’m losing my mind because she is so adamant that she has mentioned things. From her perspective it must appear I’m disorganized and constantly dropping the ball, but I have no recollection (or sticky notes) pertaining to these action items.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          From this description, maybe you could try checking in with her more often. As in grab something to write with and stick your head in the door more often give a quick update on something and ask if there’s anything new she needs you to do. The more often you talk to her the better the chance you have of catching her before she forgets to tell you something.

          1. Kat in VA*

            I never go into my boss’ office without something to write on and a pen. Actually, I never go *anywhere* other than the bathroom without something to write on and a pen. People have a habit of snagging me, making a request, and then look on amusedly while I scramble to write it down.

            Now, I don’t remember what I had for breakfast, so this is important for me. But if she’s continually saying (recently) that she told you to do something and you KNOW she didn’t, making a habit of having something to write on (sticky notes at desk, notebook when in office or out and about) will make short work of that I KNOW I TOLD YOU TO…because your answer can be, “I don’t have it written anywhere and you KNOW I write everything down that you tell me.”

    2. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Eep.. I’ve been on the other side of that. It usually happens when the workload outpaces my capacity. And yes, it’s usually a case of me thinking I asked for something and I hadn’t.

      One thing you can try is to suggest an alternative communication path? Even it’s an IM, email to you, or shared document that can be done immediately without instructions but something you both can follow up later on.

      Example: Hey boss, I think we’ve had a couple of miscues lately. I know things get hectic, if you want you can send me a quick IM or email with a reminder word while are thinking of something. It would be a flag that you need me to do something but don’t have time to explain it in that moment. Then we can follow up when you have time. Otherwise, I can set up a shared document that we can both access. Then you can jot down those thing you need from me and I’ll provide updates there so that you can have real time status on things. It would help me remember outstanding items that still need attention.

      This is one of those managing up exercises.

      1. Trying*

        I like this idea. She’s not overly familiar with using shared documents (she’s very old-school; uses a paper planner over our company Outlook calendar, etc.) but I think if I could show her the benefits she might give it try. It would knock out a couple things like showing her projects I’m currently managing and the progress thus far, while allowing her a way to notify me of upcoming needs (with supporting documentation) so I can better track it. If anything, it’s worth a try! Thanks for the advice!

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          If she doesn’t do computers, and is physically near you, maybe do your tracking on a whiteboard that you both can see? Maybe with a designated space for notes, so she can jot down a thought if you happen to be elsewhere.

  161. Coworker Problems*

    I need a bit of help with a co-worker. He started on my team less than 5 months ago and honestly does not do his work. My direct boss has called him a “work-in-progress” and frankly, I think that’s too optimistic. He shows up late every day and watches Netflix on noise-canceling headphones while he works. I could live with those things since they do not directly impact me but when he is asked to work on something he puts it off until someone else does it or intentionally does a terrible job. I’ve tried to let him fail so he would learn but it just is pushed back on me. He asked for a raise after being here for 3 months and after being told he needs to be here a year he stopped doing certain jobs because he felt as though he wasn’t getting paid for them (he told a co-worker such). He avoids our CEO who makes the employment decisions so they don’t see how much of a waste he is. I’m at wit’s end, any suggestions on how to deal with this?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      How is it impacting *your* work? That’s how you can address it. When you’re handed his work, say “When I have to do/redo Fergus’s work, it makes it impossible to finish my own, so if you want me to do X, I won’t be able to do Y. Which would you rather have me do?”

      1. Catsaber*

        This wording, absolutely – put the issue back on your manager to deal with. Make your manager choose between you doing your actual work vs the clean-up job. If your manager says “well you just have to do it all,” keep pushing until you can get a concrete agreement.

        I worked with a coworker like this and while it took my manager a looong time to actually fire him, he eventually did it because I kept putting the problem back on him (which really, it is the manager’s problem to deal with).

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          Yup. Always make it your manager’s problem. “I can help with that if you extend my deadline on [your own project].” “With one day to go before the deadline, I can’t accomplish all of what’s not done here, but I can do [small portion of shirker’s work].” “I’m not able to do that and my own tasks in a reasonable workweek. What deadlines can we move back or what project can I drop to take this?”

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Exactly. I’d be tempted to use more pointed words and say “I thought X and Y were Fergus’s responsibilities but I keep getting asked to do them, and with my current full workload of A, B, and C, I’m wondering how you would like me to prioritize the projects.”
        But the point is to say you don’t have bandwidth to do two jobs (while Fergus does none) and let your manager sort it out.

  162. PR and Marketing Pro*

    Anyone have any great recommendations for remote work? I have 10 years experience in professional communications/PR/marketing (mostly in-house, some agency). Planning on a baby soon and would love a new job working from home.

    1. Someone Else*

      Look for distributed companies: ie everyone works remotely. Then you don’t need to deal with negotiating for work from home, because it’s practically a given (some distributed companies do a have few offices here and there, but still less of an issue).

      That said, do make sure you have childcare. I say this only because I run into it constantly, where applicants think because they work from home they don’t need childcare because they’re there! And so is the baby! So it’s fine! But that’s not fine, at least not with most organizations. If you’re working, you’re working and a dedicated childcare provider needs to be in the house (or the child needs to be elsewhere with a care provider). Also (again saying because my company often has applicants who assume otherwise), not all remote positions are flex-schedules. You may have core hours or even explicit hours. It’s important not to assume “well the baby naps from 11-1 and again from 4-5 so I’ll work then, and then work some more after dinner” or whatever. Some jobs might work that way, but a ton will not.

      1. Anon Anon Anon*

        How do you bring up the child care issue during the application process without going into “family status” territory and other invasive things? I ask partly because I’m on the other side of this. I’m looking for remote work. I’m wondering if there’s a way to assure them that I won’t need childcare because I don’t have kids without crossing any lines or getting inappropriately personal.

        1. Someone Else*

          We don’t usually bring up the childcare issue in interviews or during the application process. What happens is we ask them about what drew them to the role and they say something like “well I have a toddler so working from home would really help us because” XYZ reason that clearly indicates they think they don’t need childcare. The occasions I was thinking of, it came out on its own.
          Outside of that, our handbook clearly states remote employees must have childcare. So if we’re talking about after they’re hired, it’s all laid out there. It’s not a secret. It occasionally comes up at that point with people either freaking out or saying something to colleagues like “but they don’t really hold you to that, do they?” etc. So that’s the angle my comment was coming from. Just trying to spread the word to anyone who might think they can both work and be the primary responsible adult for a child in the home at the same time that this usually doesn’t fly.
          If you don’t have children or do have childcare, then there’s nothing for you as an applicant to bring up on this front. We don’t need reassuring.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          As a lead for a remote team: when we’re doing interviews, we just go down the requirements of the policy. “Your workspace has to be a reasonably private area, computer has to be able to be plugged in to wired internet, no printers attached to the work computer, fire extinguisher in the room required, no care taking for kids under 12 while on the clock, no personal use by you or anyone else of the computer — any problems with any of that?” And then if there are questions about any of it we get more specific as needed.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I would generally say you should look for larger companies with a global footprint. The chances are better the position can be remote or flexible to work at home.
      On Indeed, you can change your search parameters for remote jobs.
      I work in a similar field and often work at home. It’s fortunate because mostly we can do our jobs anywhere. But remember, you may still have set hours you have to be available! I work at home a lot, but still must be available 8-5, oftentimes even later! And I echo that work at home does not equal no child care needed. You cannot work full time from home without some form of child care in place. It’s a big misconception about remote work and it becomes obvious quickly if abused.

    3. PR and Marketing Pro*

      Thanks all! Definitely would have childcare. Just want to eliminate a commute and I enjoy working remotely.

  163. Lost in the Woods*

    I’m going in to my last semester of college, and I’m working on my resume. I’m applying to research-type jobs (with relevant experience during school). I’ve received a couple of prizes (one awarded by my department, and one by my college which automatically goes to the top 15% of class by GPA). My parents think I should have these on my resume. I’m not sure if they’re relevant/tell potential employers anything about me that’s not covered in my experience section. Should I keep them on? Leave them off? Keep the department prize and dump the GPA prize?

    1. coffee addict*

      I would include the awards as part of your education. It’s probably not going to be the determining factor for getting a job. But, having a list of awards like that can make you look good, especially if asked about them in an interview.

      When I was applying to jobs, I included awards in my resume in the format below.
      University, Class of 20XX
      Bachelor of X: Degree A | Minor: Minor B
      GPA X.XX, Award 1, Award 2, Award 3

    2. FindYourWay*

      Is the department prize something you earned or achieved based on relevant work experience that would look good to a potential employer? For example, if it shows that you excelled in specific area or otherwise speaks to your quantifiable skills, I would keep it on there. I’m thinking something along the lines of receiving an award for being in to the top 5% of sales consistently over a 6 month period, when applying for a sales position if that helps put it into perspective. As far as the GPA one, you could maybe put it near your graduation date as graduates often do when they graduate with honors (i.e. B.S. in Underwaterbasketweaving summa cum laude) or similar and I don’t think things like that are generally awful for new graduates to include, particularly if they have shorter work history.

      1. Lost in the Woods*

        It’s for a kind of a nebulous “achievement in Underwater Basketweaving,” and it was given to three other students; we were all voted on by faculty, apparently, based on a set of criteria like lab work, course work, and general expressed interest in the subject.

        Putting the GPA one under education is perfect, thanks!

        1. Catleesi*

          I think considering it was selective and decided upon based on your performance you could put it for a limited amount of time – especially if you have limited work history. Perhaps as a subsection under Education? However, once you get more work experience you would want to remove it and focus more on professional achievements.

          2. Susannah*

            I’m in a similar position. Currently I have an “awards and honors” section under education that has those type of items (phi beta kappa, economics honor society (actually hard to get into), fulbright scholar, research award as a way to say I did that research, and a conference/institute for women in politics that i was picked/funded for but is too short to be its own “education” line item I think. I don’t have a lot of post-grad work experience, as I graduated last year, so is this still an OK section to put? Do people care about any of this stuff? Obviously the Fulbright is part of experience, as its what I did last year, but the other stuff doesn’t seem to have an obvious place.

  164. Merci Dee*

    Pro tip:

    If one of your co-workers has set up his email signature with a line under his name that reads,

    (aka “The Problem-Solver”)

    chances are, this guy is the problem.

    He certainly is in my organization. Argumentative, up to and including snarky and accusatory emails to our vendors; passive-aggressive with a total willingness to throw any- and everybody under the bus to make himself look better; out of touch with reality to the point that he questions why the managers get to be the ones to tell people what to do and set policy for our departments; and a massive dose of racism/xenophobia that includes making completely inappropriate remarks (in writing!!!!!!!!) about the nationality of the senior managers that our out-of-country HQ sends to run our facility.

    The only way this jerk would solve any problems is if he quit.

    Am I the only person who works with someone with so little self-awareness?

    1. Catsaber*

      GAAAH like those people who say they “hate drama”. I worked with one of those guys in my last job and he is about 40% of the reason why I left that job.

      I recently encountered a freelance trainer who has [Toolset] Jedi Master in his email sig, and rolled my eyes so hard I got a headache. But then he turned out to be a very lovely person and a good trainer.

    3. Anoncity*

      To answer your question, no. Just before Winter Break a coworker complained to everyone who would listen about feeling like her birthday would be overlooked…because her in-laws were treating the entire family to an all-expenses-paid international European vacation. Keep in mind we work at a low-income school, so this happened in between conversations about helping families find free grocery options during the 2 weeks school would be out.

  165. Lemon Ginger Tea*

    A year and a half ago I was headhunted and very specifically baited with things I didn’t have at my former job (look, here you get an office with a window and you don’t need to do any data entry!).
    9 months into the job we moved offices and I no longer have a window.
    1.5 years into the job I’ve been saddled with data entry.
    I like the job, I’m not ready to jump ship, but is there a non-whiny way to bring this to my boss’s attention? It feels pretty crappy.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I don’t think there’s much you can do about the window office, but I definitely think you can ask about the data entry. I’d ask specifically, “is this something that has an end date, or is this going to be part of my job for the foreseeable future?” If it’s the latter, I think you can say, “Part of the reason I came here from my last job was because I was looking to grow out of data entry work. Is there a way we can bring my role back to [insert area of focus here]?”

      And if the answer is no, then at least you know that it’s now part of your job again and that maybe you will want to start looking eventually.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I went through a similar experience.
      Started with an office. Moved to a cube so a new hire “man” got my office and was told it was temporary until the office moved.
      Was shoved out into the open floorplan upon the office move where the Admins sat (I’m a manager)

      More and more, the expectations of the job changed until I was spending all my time on low level necessary but not value-added work. This is because the job used to be 2 people, and I was never allowed to fill the more marketing assistant type role.

      When that happens, it’s usually time to move on.

  166. Grace Less*

    Health insurance (employer provided)! What do you pay a month, what’s the deductible and out-of-pocket? What are the co-pays?

    I pay $700/month for family coverage. It’s a $1000/person deductible ($3000/family). The out-of-pocket max is $3750/person ($7500/family). It’s $30 for a regular visit, and $60 for specialists. In 2017, I paid about $9000 (non-covered therapy plus co-pays) plus my premiums. Last year was slightly better – probably only about $5000 (co-pays, % of hospitalization, % of medical equipment) plus the premiums. It feels high – is everyone paying this much?

    1. Pam*

      My insurance- state university job- changed from $0 monthly payment with Kaiser, to $65 with Blue Shield (single, not family). (I’m getting a specialist I want, so it’s worth it) Co-pays stayed the same at $15 per visit, ER at $50, so yes, yours seems high.

    2. Kat in VA*

      In the NoVA area, I pay about $600 for insurance (health, dental, vision). The deductible is $700 per person, $1500 per family. Visits are 20% after copay, no deductible.

    3. Nacho*

      I pay nothing, and get $500/year on top of that in an HSA account. On the other hand, I’ve got a $2500 deductible just for myself, so it doesn’t really cover much either. Basically it provides free checkups once a year, and it’ll save me if I ever get hit by a car, but that’s about it.

    4. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      I don’t know what family coverage runs at my workplace, but for an individual it’s a little over $100 a month (counting dental – not counting dental, it’s $70) for the most expensive option. (We have two regular insurance options, one with a larger network, and one high deductible plan.) It’s a $30 co-pay for a regular visit or urgent care and a $40 co-pay for specialists. I want to say that the deductible is less than $1000 for a single person, though not by tons ($750 is what comes to mind), but I don’t remember off the top of my head. I can’t think of the out-of-pocket max off the top of my head at all.

      I do know that family coverage is more, with associated larger deductible and out-of-pocket max. I just don’t know how much more.

      Not sure if that helps or not.

    5. cat pillow*

      Current plan:
      – 200-300 a month
      – 1000$ ded, no copays (aka full pay for every doc visit, ER, etc)
      – coinsurance of 90% up to 2500$ max

      Plan at new job:
      – 92-122$ a month (there’s a discount if you sign up for health shit, i probably won’t)
      – 250$ ded, with 20/35/100 copays
      – 2500$ out of pocket max

      1. cat pillow*

        forgot to put in that both are just for me, no kids or spouse, and second one i forgot to include dental and vision, which bumps it another 16-26$ a month

        since i had the doc open, i did look at what the most expensive option would be (employee + “family”, which is different here than “children”)….per month, it’s 454$, including the best dental and vision plan. same copays, 500$ ded, 5000$ family out of pocket max.

    6. Aphrodite*

      I work for a California community college, and we have stupendous benefits. A choice of four health plans including vision (3 PPOs and 1 HMO), three dental plans, long-term disability and more. Every summer we make a choice, change or not. There is the single plan, the couple plan and the family plan; we pay our portion out over ten months. Only those who also have approved (by HR) coverage elsewhere such as by a spouse can opt out and get some cash.

      I have the 100% PPO and the best dental plan. I pay a total this year (September to September) $170 for both medical and dental, about $100 of that for medical. I have a $10 co-pay for visits, a $100 deductible for an emergency room visit, and no other costs if I stay with network providers. I have a superb network here so I am happy to do so.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I pay $46/paycheck, but with a $35/check credit because of the points I accrued in our health initiatives, so total $11 every two weeks. That covers me on a high deductible ($6k) plan. They give me $700 into my HSA every year. I almost never have any medical expenses beyond my annual though, which is covered, and a $20/month prescription that I just pay for out of pocket. The HSA money is pretty much just stacking up for an emergency.

      Vision and dental are about $8 together per paycheck and are pretty standard – one exam per year, glasses allowance once a year, dental covers as little as they can get away with :-P

    8. Even Steven*

      During unemployment before the holidays, I had ACA marketplace insurance with a $600 monthly premium, a deductible of $5000 with an inclusive annual out of pocket limit of $7800.00. At my new job, I pay $125.00, or a third of my premium (company pays the rest) and the deductible is $2000 for an annual out of pocket limit of $5000.00. I am over 50 and in a very high cost-of-living city and state, so I bet that explains why the amounts are so high……

  167. Erika22*

    Does anyone ever get frustrated that their job isn’t bad but it isn’t great, the pay isn’t terrible but isn’t good, the people are nice but no one you really click with? It’s like the Medium Place, or a warm flat beer, or something. I thought learning the ropes of the job and a new part of the industry would get me through a year or two, but I’m starting to feel antsy. This three-day week kind of solidified my feeling that I don’t want to be in this position much more than a year. I have a long notice period (which I’m regretting not negotiating) so if I start really job hunting in July, chances are this time next year I could be starting a new job. Anyone else getting restless at their job? I feel you.

    1. De Minimis*

      Yeah, I’m in the same boat. I got a slight bump in pay from my previous job and a way better commute, but I just don’t find the job interesting. The people are okay but I don’t really connect with them. I know stuff could be a lot worse, but I’m probably going to start looking once it gets close to my current lease ending [relocated for this job and don’t really like the city I moved to either….] I’ve been here nearly 5 months and it’s obvious to me that this is basically a stopgap type job…

    2. Nacho*

      I feel you. I’m a tier 2 agent in a call center, which means my job is to tell tier 1 agents our policies when they forget, and talk to anybody who wants a manager. On the one hand, it’s still more customer service than I’d like from my job. On the other hand the pay’s great for a customer service position, with good hours, a fantastic commute, reasonably low stress, and good management/coworkers.

      I could quit and try to find something I like more, but if that fails I’d have to start again somewhere as a tier 1 agent, which is basically hell, and with no guarantee that the company would even have tier 2 agents to work up to. So for now I’m just staying where I am, hoping that I’ll eventually be promoted from seniority if nothing else.

    3. Overeducated*

      Yup. But I knew that when I took my job. I went in planning to give it 1-2 years and move on by year 3. I’m closing in on a year soon and don’t feel the urge to apply for jobs that aren’t dreamy, which is a sign that I haven’t gotten all I need out of the Medium Place yet.

    4. chi chan*

      Me too. I wanted to get a job with more opportunities for growth and move out of this town. I have been looking since June but only had one interview. It’s difficult to get out of bed some mornings.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah. I’m feeling this now at a year and a half.
      I like my work and immediate team, but the problem is with another department and it makes getting my work done difficult. I’m an “outlier” compared to the other department and the way my team works doesn’t fit the process and I’m constantly questioned by the larger dept. even though my team is happy with what I’ve been doing.
      Because of this, I’ve really been considering starting another job search. I feel constrained that I cannot bring all I could to my role becasuse this other department can’t or won’t, and they effectively also block my access so I can’t do things for myself. My mangers are aware, but they also don’t have power to move the larger department to action, and expect me to fend for myself. It’s been a frustrating experience and I’m not sure I want to continue in this manner.

  168. ???*

    Getting calls from recruiters, they’re submitting my resume to the hiring manager, but I’m not really getting interviews. WHY???

    1. Well Red*

      Possibilities:
      – your resume isn’t as strong as it could be
      – the recruiter isn’t being selective about candidates
      – you are overqualified for these roles
      – you are under qualified for these roles
      – the field is super-competitive
      etc.

      Things to consider: Are these recruiters reliable and do they have a strong reputation and history of placing good candidates with good employers? Are they giving you feedback on their efforts? Do you have to go through recruiters or can you apply directly?

  169. Location Off*

    Looking at a mid-distance job search (Location A approx. 3 hours), where SIL in lives. I’ve been using her address on some resumes despite living in. I just got a call for an interview (well to provide times I could be available). First – yay!

    Any suggestions/thoughts/advice on how to address working at Location B but my provided address being Location A. My thoughts are that I’m in the process of relocating and have been staying with SIL (white lie, ehhh), or that SO is planning on going to grad school in Location A (part true, but doesn’t explain the address). In actually we always intended to move to Location A. I would say to be near family but SIL is actually going to moving herself in about 2-3 months (at which point I would obviously STOP using her address).

    1. WellRed*

      You are overthinking this. You are in the process of relocating for husband’s grad school, etc., and are excited about this, and being near family and the job for reasons. That’s very normal. They don’t need to know whether you currently are bunking down on SILs couch or that she is moving in 2 to 3 months.

  170. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

    Oh wow. So I accepted a job offer a few weeks ago and have already resigned from my current job. I am supposed to start Monday and the last couple of days and interactions with their HR office are kind of freaking me. I’m scared to death now that I have gotten a job with a nightmare HR office and that it’s going to make my job miserable.

    First, she wanted to call me to discuss the documents I’d need to bring in on my first day and other orientation information. When she called, the then informed me that I had 2; hours to complete a drug screen, physical, and TB test. The problem is, I was not at all prepared for this. I had to go to my other job, my husband was out of town, I had kids activities that evening and school programs the next morning. The office where I had to get this done doesn’t do appointment AND the medical office told me they don’t even do these tests on Thursday because the office is closed over the weekend when I have to come back. So they told me it could be 2-3.5 hours and I’d have to make 2 trips. All on my own time. I tried to explain to HR that I would need more time and they flat out refused. I managed to get the drug test done but told them that they could rescind the offer if they wanted but I simply didn’t have 3 hours to sit around until the next week.

    So today, they contacted me because I have an out of state license. I own property in another state and kept the license when we moved here because when I attempted to change over I was told I’d need a new birth certificate, SS card, and some other things. This was going to takes weeks and my license was expiring. So I renewed in the other state. The employer is telling me I have to switch my license over. When I tried to explain that this would at a minimum take a few weeks since I would need documents from multiple states they said they didn’t know how to proceed since I was “refusing to get a license in this state.” Let me point out this is not a driving posting and I wouldn’t be driving one of their vehicles. Just back and forth to work.

    This all feels so bizarre and intrusive and now I’m worried I’ve made a terrible decision to accept this job! They have agreed to give me a couple of weeks to change my license, but what if it takes the other states longer than expected to send me my birth certificate!? Even expedited they say it can take 10 business days.

    ALSO this is an organization serving people with disabilities and I am awestruck that they have what many in the industry believe to be the discriminatory employment practice of requiring me to have a drivers license for a position that does not involve driving. Many people choose not to drive for personal, financial, or environmental reasons as well as medical conditions like vision impairment and epilepsy. When I asked them how they would proceed if I did not have a license at all, they insisted that one was necessary for this position. For reference, it’s an office job sitting in front of a computer.

    Seriously. What is all this!?

    1. valentine*

      Can you talk to your new supervisor or anyone else, who may be more reasonable? Even if they require a driver’s license, why specifically one for your state (unless there’s a deadline on how long you can use an out-of-state license in current state)?

      1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

        I’ve spoken with him and all he has said is that this is their policy and I have to comply with it.

    2. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Two hours from the time the call to get a drug screen, physical, and TB test? What the heck. Even assuming that you could just drop everything and rush off, the tests could take two hours on their own!

      The drivers license thing manages to be even more bizarre. What. And does that mean that the organization never considers candidates who don’t live in state (yet)?

      1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

        Sorry, I see I made a typo. 24 hours. But it was an incredibly busy 24 for me. 16 if you consider I had to sleep. 8 of you consider I had to still work my other job. 4 if you take out the time I needed for transporting my kids and going to their programs (my husband was overseas at the time for work). And 2 if you consider that I needed to eat and go to the bathroom and shower and travel time. So maybe 2 wasn’t such a bad estimate

        1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          That still seems like not much time, especially when you consider the testing place is probably *not* open 24 hours. I’ve only had one job that required drug testing and I’m pretty sure I had more than one day to get it done in. And I’m quite sure the place where I got the testing done did take appointments.

          1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

            The testing facility near me was open until 7 pm. And it was in the worst area. Like, if I had a gift certificate to get my nails done at the place next door…I would throw it away. There was a motel advertising rooms by the hour across the street. They had another location that was 24-hours, but it is about 45 minutes away and given what I had going on, I would have needed to get a sitter and go out there around 9-10 pm, the process thanking 2 hours or more, and then driving another 45 minutes back home around midnight. And having to go to work the next morning and making the return trip to have the TB follow up. So nearly 3 hours just in the car.

            They kept telling me it was some kind of legal policy because of some of the work they do that it had to be done within 24 hours. Keep in mind this was all about 4 weeks before my hire date. Leaving me weeks to get TB, carpel tunnel, or all the drugs I could take. [eye roll]

    3. Gumby*

      Do they need an actual driver’s license or would a state-issued ID work? Because you can get state IDs at the DMV w/o getting a license.

      They could be using the DL as shorthand but the actual I-9 requirement is a DL or state ID (along with a birth certificate or social security card). Frankly, I bypass all of that and just use my passport.

      1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

        Nope. License. It’s silly. I have never been required to have a drivers license for a job. They also said that they pull employees driving records every 3-6 months and the service they use only covers in state. So I think it’s kind of all them just being cheap and bizarrely interested in a part of my life that really has absolutely nothing to do with my job. I won’t be driving a company car or really driving in any way except to and from work.

        1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          Why are they pulling employee driving records if people aren’t driving for the job? Is that normal?

          1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

            That’s what I said!

            Does this not seem like the most intrusive policy? I have never heard of such a practice.

            The whole thing is already leaving me with a terrible taste in my mouth. When I spoke with the HR person I asked him what the did in the case of employees who lived out of state — we are in an area where we are close to a state line and I have worked with people who lived out of state before — or people who choose not to drive or military families… he didn’t seem to have an answer.

            On top of all this, I’m really getting upset at all of the time I’ve had to spend going back and forth to physicals and drug tests and TB follow ups and not the expense of having to request all these documents and have them expedited. And then later to go and sit at the DMV… all off the clock. Any time I or my husband or anyone else I know has had to have an employment physical, it’s been “on the clock” so to speak.

            I have started getting terrible anxiety thinking about what other ridiculous policies they might have.

    4. Susan K*

      I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that it was a mistake to take this job just because of the administrative issues you’re having with the HR office. Sometimes the HR office (or whatever department handles these things) can be weirdly disconnected from the rest of the company, and the hiring manager can be just as annoyed with them for holding up the new employee’s start date.

      It would have been better to wait to give notice at the job you’re leaving until all the conditions of the new job are confirmed (drug test, physical, background check, credit check, etc.). Even if you know everything should come up clean, there’s always a chance of some weird thing going wrong like someone with the same name getting arrested and showing up on your background check. Just to be on the safe side, it’s best to wait until you get confirmation before you give notice. Companies with a decent HR department will tell you not to give notice until these things are done.

      But don’t panic. You can work out these issues with HR. Just be persistent and cooperate with them as much as you can.

      1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

        Thanks. I actually did wait to give notice until all the issues with the physical and other things were handled. They sprung this whole license in me literal Friday and I’m supposed to start on Monday.

        I may just be having flashbacks of a job at a similar organization with a ridiculous HR department and demeaning and degrading policies. We had a department where when people hurt their backs and were on workers comp, when the doctor approved them for a desk job they made them come in and literally sit at a table all day sometimes doing mind numbing silly tasks. It was designed to bore people into returning to work instead of staying out taking care of themselves. They fought every single unemployment claim for months. They wouldn’t let me have a day off using PRO because my supervisor didn’t complete my performance review for over 3 months. Something totally out of my control. They used polices that allowed them to pay people with disabilities below the minimum wage.

        It always felt like they were trying to make you jump throws hoops to prove they were in control. It was very demoralizing. I hope that this HR office isn’t indicative of what I might experience in my day to day work.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In my state it’s not legal to not have switched over your driver license within 60 days of moving from another state, so that may be a concern too.

      1. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

        I still have property in the other state. And I guess I’m just more of the belief that how I live my life outside of work is none of their business. It’s not their business where I have my license, or if I have parking tickets, or don’t comply with the rules if my HOA, or worship satan.

    6. Have I made a yuge mistake?*

      I’m going to go ahead and call this one a mistake. They sent me home on my first day because some of my paperwork was not complete prior to orientation. They sent me a link in a welcome email and my login was not working. Once I finally got the correct login, it was an hour or more of forms and reading policies and signing that I understood and honestly sometimes I had a lot of questions. It seemed best to me to wait and ask those questions during orientation and sign then. But they wanted everything signed before orientation. So they sent me home. This all feels really shady at this point honestly. It’s weird to have to complete all of this documentation and sign off on all these policies without being given the opportunity to ask questions. Policies that say things like “if you do not comply you will be terminated”.

  171. Susannah*

    I am looking for advice on how to structure a resume with a bunch of concurrent jobs/extracurricular/co curricular activities. I’m a recent college grad, and due to both diverse interests and a persistent tendency to over schedule myself have ended up working on a variety of teaching related volunteer opportunities, theatre productions (stage manager), tutoring jobs, and other short internships/conferencey type things. They’re all generally related to the sort of education jobs I’m applying to, but I don’t know how to order things when I can’t line jobs up in an order that really reflects my experience.

    On a related note, I was wondering if any teachers/principals could weigh in on the one/two page resume rule as it applies for beginning teachers? Just listing my education and formal fieldwork training takes almost a whole page and doesn’t leave any space for the extracurricular information that does make a good case for my candidacy as a teacher.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Agent J*

      Perhaps you can group some positions together based on the common skills/experiences you had across them. And then list increasing accomplishments in those areas (i.e., Event Planning as one section, Teaching/Tutoring as another).

    2. Penguin*

      I had that exact problem all through college! What worked for me was to follow Agent J’s suggestion to consolidate where possible (e.g. grouping teaching assistantships with multiple profs under “University Q” if they’re all at the same university). I also organized the non-groupable positions by their _end_ date; with a reverse-chronological resume by end date, a recruiter, hiring manager, etc. can see when things ended which seems (at least IME) to be what is more helpful to them. (From a period of being on the hiring side of things, *I* also found it more helpful, but that might just be me.)

      If you’re losing space to headers and formatting because individual positions take several lines to showcase a single skill, remove some of the concurrent volunteer positions and add a “Relevant Skills” section; list the skills there without the names/dates clutter. If you want to highlight the context of a given skill (e.g. a prestigious event, hiring manager was in the same club) you could do so in your cover letter.

      Also double-check that there’s no unnecessary redundancy with regard to each position showcasing important accomplishments/skills/experience; if something done while in college offers the same kind of saleable qualities as one in high school, maybe drop the older one.

      1. Susannah*

        Thanks for the advice! I’ve completely dropped HS stuff, with the exception of a position I’ve had since high school, as that didn’t need any extra space to include. I’ve also split the experience into “classroom teaching” and “Additional Work Experience” to help folks differentiate. I like what you said about putting positions by end date. That makes a lot of sense to me.

    3. New Bee*

      Assistant principal here–I much prefer 1-page resumes (though I won’t “ding” for 2-page), because they are the least-weighted in our hiring process–I’m most interested in the teaching demo and the responses to the interview questions, which get at things like experience in low-income communities, equity mindsets, and collaboration. Good luck!

  172. TV*

    Has anyone thrown away dirty dishes that their coworkers leave in the sink? We have a dishwasher but sometimes the night strangers leave dishes in the sink and it’s hard to rinse out the coffee carafe in the morning. I’m tired of putting these dishes in the dishwasher for them so I figure if I have to move the dishes to get coffee ready I may as well toss them in the garbage.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. we didn’t have a dishwasher and we were all expected to clean up after each other. (I pretty much stopped after I’d been there a couple of years.) Once the president of the firm washed a cup left behind in the sink. (Maybe back in the early 2000s or the 1990s or so.) They still talk about it.

      OTOH, one time I had to clean out the office refrigerator. I sent out email notices and made announcements over the intercom for 3 days prior to the cleanup. Whatever was left in the fridge on Friday afternoon was thrown out. One of the department heads somehow missed the notices and had a fit about his bento box being thrown out. (It was a wedding present.) He went digging through the dumpster in back of the building until he found it. It was casual Friday so he was wearing jeans.

      1. Worked in IT forever*

        Our fridges were cleaned out monthly. We had a sign on the fridge to remind people to remove anything they owned. If you didn’t do it, it would be tossed.

    2. Worked in IT forever*

      No, but someone did put up an strongly worded sign at my office to remind people not to leave dirty dishes soaking in the sink or on the nearby counter. (We had no dishwasher.) Maybe that would work, with or without a threat to toss any dishes still there in the morning?

    3. Susan K*

      Yes… People at my job are always leaving their dirty dishes in the kitchen sink, sometimes for days, sometimes over the weekend. There used to be a sign above the sink that said, “Do not leave dirty dishes in the sink!” People ignored it. Then someone put up a new sign that said, “Dishes left in the sink will be thrown away!” I thought, “Finally, somebody’s going to do something about these dirty dishes in the sink.” Nope — people kept leaving their dirty dishes in the sink, and whoever posted the sign was caught bluffing because he or she did not throw any dishes away.

      One day, when the sink was full of particularly disgusting dishes, I realized that I could be the one to carry out the threat from the sign. So I threw away the dishes in the sink. I felt really guilty about it, and I carefully set the dishes on top of the trash in the trash can, in case someone wanted to rescue them. But the more I thought about it, the less guilty I felt, and now I’m at the point where I don’t even give it a second thought before tossing people’s dishes in the trash, because (a) they were warned, and (b) it is freaking rude to leave dirty dishes in a communal sink. And there’s really no excuse for your coworkers since you have a dishwasher.

    4. Namey McNameface*

      I’m kinda horrified you will toss dishes into the garbage. I mean you don’t have to wash them but don’t put perfectly good dishes into landfill.

      1. WellRed*

        I’m horrified people think leaving dirty dishes is OK. Doubly so uf they are in the way of using the kitchen. I might not toss something like the nice bento box.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        I know it’s wasteful, but sometimes you have to be pretty ruthless, because otherwise the lazy ones are really just expecting someone else to clean it for them. Plus, you don’t want to touch some of the crap people leave, it can get disgusting and attract pests like mice & roaches.

        It’s the same with the community fridge. If you value it, don’t leave it in there on the last Friday of the month.

    5. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I usually just dump out the water sitting in them for days (OMG “SOAKING” MORE THAN AN HOUR DOES NOT DO ANYTHING, IT IS JUST BEING LAZY) and put them either in the drying rack, in the dishwasher (which no one uses), or in a cabinet in the break room. I am gobsmacked by people who wash dishes for people who 1) are not paying them to do so or 2) are not related to them.

  173. Can’t Sit Still*

    I’m done with my masters capstone! I feel like my brain is going to melt out of my ears. I have to wait to find if it needs revisions but the hard part is over.

    I’m going to have free time! I don’t know what I’ll do with it, but I’ll have it. It’s a great start to 2019!

  174. StellaBella*

    Not sure anyone will see this but I did something dumb. Got interview request – YAY! They sent a google calendar invite. The time said 08h00 (UK Time). I replied, and said I would see her on the 9th at 08h00. Then…. today looked at calendar. IT IS AT 09h00. So … I sent an email saying I would see her at the WRONG TIME. I found this article from Alison tho, from 2014 and am reading it now https://www.askamanager.org/2014/05/i-showed-up-for-my-interview-on-the-wrong-day.html UGH Just … Ugh. Advice? I was thinking to call to confirm time on Tuesday at interview is on Wednesday.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d just call and confirm as soon as you can. Better to look a bit silly than miss the interview!

  175. Namey McNameface*

    As a manager I get that employees will complain about me. But I hate it when people completely twist the situation and tell blatant lies about what a horrible person I am. I had to fire someone recently after months of trying really hard to make the situation work. I gave her repeated and explicit warnings that she had to improve on XYZ if she wanted to keep her job. While this process wasn’t pleasant I treated her respectfully and went out of my way to help her keep her job. Termination was the absolute last resort.

    She told everyone I pulled the rug underneath her and fired her without any warning. She conveniently didn’t mention any problems she caused and only told people I was a bad person who fired her unfairly when she’d worked really hard at her job. She also said I yelled and used abusive language when firing her (!!!!!) Ummm…no.

    I’m also upset people believe this crap. Unless I was an idiot, why on earth would I fire someone who is great at their job?

    1. LGC*

      So, this is super late, but: I’m really sorry this is happening to you!

      IME, a lot of the time it’s not about you, really. She’s mad that she got fired, and she’s taking it out on you and being petty. I also think that…if you’re not a yeller and screamer (which it doesn’t sound like you are), people will eventually figure out that…hey, Fergusina is making stuff up because it’d be out of character for Namey McNameface to start yelling and swearing.

      If I had to guess, the former employee was pretty popular, but a toxic influence on your team, which is why they’re believing her. Which is also bad! But again, she’s discrediting herself. I’d just keep on being pleasant (which is easy to say) and effective.

      I’m sorry I can’t provide more reassurance or a solution – it’s just that she’s trying to drag you down to her level and I think the best thing you could do is to not play.

      1. Namey McNameface*

        Thank you. I feel like it’s in human nature to believe the worst gossip. So rather than people saying “Hey this is out of character for Namey McNameface, did that really happen?” – the typical response is more likely to be “Ohhhhh, you wouldn’t think she was like that with all the nicey niceness she fakes to your face. Wow, what a cow.”

        It complicates matters that I’m a newbie and Former Employee was one in a tight knit group of long term employees. The former manager was far too tolerant of bad performance and toxic behaviour. So all around it’s hard for me to manage.

    2. WellRed*

      If she’s recently fired, this wull likely fade quickly. Don’t engage, reassure yourself that others probably see through her act. If someone does say something to you about how it’s unfair, politely deflect. But seriously, I bet it blows over.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      How to combat people believing BS: If you have department/group meetings you can use this as one of your topics.
      “I just want to review what happens when someone has a performance problem. [Describe process. One verbal warning, three written warnings, dismissal. Whatever the company process is.]” Be sure to include documenting that is done, who else is involved in the process and so on. Then land on “If anyone has any questions or concerns you may come see me in private [and/or talk to other sources such as HR if applicable to your work place].”

      Notice how you never mention any names, you are just describing the process. You can start with, “There seems to be some confusion about how I and by extension this company handles performance issues. I’d like to go over this with you folks now, so that everyone is clear on what happens and how the process works.”

      It’s a really good idea to encourage them to come talk to you in private with their questions or concerns. This lays the groundwork for when you overhear comments and rumors. You can immediately chime in with, “We discussed this at our last meeting. I want everyone with concerns or questions to come discuss it with me. What I just overheard is Not True. Spreading false rumors pulls down morale and interferes with the company’s ability to function. If you have concerns, I will be in my office this afternoon, please come talk with me. Otherwise, I must ask you to stop repeating inaccurate information.”

      IF, big if, they do show up to talk to you at that point you can say, “I won’t discuss a particular person with you. However, I can assure you that everyone goes through the same process. It does the company no good to randomly fire people without warning. It does not look good out in the community, it does not look good to those who remain employed. It’s just a bad plan to behave this way.”
      I have gone as far as saying, “It’s part of my job to make sure YOU keep your job. I don’t experience a “win” or a “kick” when someone gets fired. I know for a fact that we ALL lost something when someone gets fired.”

  176. Mimi*

    I am an admin in a team of 4 people in Occupational Health. The problem I have is that I am constanly having to interrupt my work to help them with very basic tasks- the printer jamming (even though the screen tells them how to fix it), how to find a document on the pc (even though I have explained how to search files), how to add headers/footers etc. all these random little basic tasks over & over again. I have tried to set boundaries & create guidance documents & explained that whilst I am happy to support I also have my own increasingly heavy workload to deal with as well as dealing with the phones & visitors to the office. I have explained that I expect people to be self sufficient with the basics but it falls on deaf ears- it is like you are expected to be an administrator, a PA & a medical secretary all in one. The OH doctor has now told me that I am not good at multitasking- she said this whilst I was adding a new referral to the database, emailing a colleague & taking instruction from her about something she wanted doing! Later I brought it up with her wanting to defend myself & she said she meant I can’t deal with multiple demands. I believe this is retailation as she is the most needy & demanding of my time & I had just discussed this with her the day before (she had nothing to say to it). The OH practitioners have all said in the past that the doctor takes up too much of my time & they have to do admin tasks (e.g. sending out reports) themselves. There is 1 other admin but her job is solely to type the doctor’s reports since she refuses to do it & this is a full time job.

    I didn’t think to say it at the time but it’s not that I can’t cope with multiple demands- it’s the nature of the demands I am expected to deal with when so much of my work (like writing policies/procedures etc) is left to the wayside repeatedly. I find it so frustrating that I have to stop because someone repeatedly has to be shown the same basic task over & over again. We are currently managerless but a new one will be starting next week so I am now concerned that the doctor will be putting this impression of me across- she already said she is going to speak to the Director to ask that I focus on policies/procedures instead of answering phones, dealing with the nurses & we will get another admin in to do that however the procedure writing should not take that long. Am I wrong to expect people to do certain basic things for themselves? Am I wrong for being an admin wanting to set boundaries? Due to leaving an awful job I have ended up in this type of basic admin role 2x in a row now so I am not used to doing everything for everyone all the time. The previous admin was the type who would do anything for anyone & always take on more & more regardless of how busy she is (the mess she got into has since come to light). I am happy to help people anytime but I prefer to show them how rather than just doing it for them. Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      Well, I think you need to get clarification on your job duties, first. But, doing things for others is often the admins job and I would suspect when dealing with phyicians, even more so. You are not wrong to teach and encourage on the stuff like paper jams. But it may be that’s how it’s done there. As to writing policies and procedures, that sounds like it is not going to be an ongoing thing. Are you new in this job? Maybe its an adjustment phase on both sides.Also, be careful your disdain for this one doctor isn’t showing, the way it is in this letter cause that’s a losing battle.

      1. Mimi*

        I’ve been there just over a year & it is not as advertised. Everyone has disdain for the Doctor due to her behaviour – for example she constantly threatens to resign if things are not done, this can be if no one is available to type her dictated letters to asking if you can finish the lunch she has just interrupted before helping her to copy & paste a file from one folder to another.

        There is a lot of gaslighting & manipulation people openly talk about this stuff & senior management are aware of how difficult she is but no one does anything. I think the real problem I have is I do not want to be an assistant-that is not my job title. It seems no one was aware of the job description & they all decided I would be a PA so the role has unofficially changed. The senior managers are supportive when I discuss issues but don’t back me up. I am happy to help anyone but I want to be in control of my own work & I really don’t want to hand hold multiple people with basic things. Like they all ask me if X or Y has happened with a case, often it will be something they are responsible for doing so the only way I can answer is by checking the database – the same database that is open on everyone’s pc daily. They will literally leave their desk & come to my office to ask when the answer was already in front of them. This type of thing seems totally over the top to me.

        1. nonegiven*

          > Like they all ask me if X or Y has happened with a case, often it will be something they are responsible for doing so the only way I can answer is by checking the database – the same database that is open on everyone’s pc daily.

          Did you check the database? What did it say?

  177. DBGeek*

    I know you’re generally not supposed to be friends with your manager but how do you find that line between just generally talking socially with them and being to friendly? My issue at work is that the only person really my age range is my direct supervisor and even then she’s 5 years younger… the people at the same level as me are actually all in their early 20s and fresh out of college … I’m not sure how well I click with any of them plus they work on another floor so I don’t get to interact with them as much unless it’s work related. Maybe I’m over thinking it but I would like to be a bit more social at work and not so isolated – especially since I moved to another state for work and don’t really know anyone else here. I know realistically I need to work harder at finding more groups to socialize with outside of work.

    1. Grace Less*

      There’s nothing wrong with being politely friendly with your supervisor; you just need to draw a line. For other people in your office, you might have to re-frame it to focus on interests you have in common, rather than age. At a past job, I probably spoke the most to a person who started at the company before I was born. We talked about travel and museums – she had a lot to share from her experiences, and she was interested to hear the “hot new things” being reviewed on the Internet. It wasn’t a “soul sister” relationship, but a pleasant enough way to pass time waiting at the coffee pot.

  178. LGC*

    So our basement just flooded. For Reasons, we store a lot of our work in the basement.

    I found out when I walked in and saw a fire truck outside of our building.

    How’s your Saturday?

  179. AnyaT*

    Help! Looking for any experiences transitioning from public to private sector! I’ve been working in government for basically all of my professional life (~15 years) and now next week I have an interview for a private sector company. I’m really excited about the opportunity but I have no idea what type of interview I will be walking into. In government every interview is the same format: initial assignment/project, then 3-person panel with standardized questions for every candidate. Also it takes weeks or months to go through the process. For this private sector position I submitted my application yesterday at noon and at 5 PM they sent me an interview request, so I suspect things will move much faster.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Private sector interviews are all different, unfortunately, there is no template. But good companies tend to have a pattern somwhat like this.
      1st is typically with HR as a screen. This may be by phone, and us typically basic questions about your background and qualifications and salary expectations.
      2nd is usually with the actual hiring manager, who can tell you more about the job duties, what they’re looking for and what you’d bring to the company. You may meet with others the hiring manager feels should meet you, or it could be a panel interview. Depending on your field, you may be given a test, such as a writing test (depends, but this is where I typically am expected to do them).
      3rd interviews usually mean you’re a finalist, and the hiring manager might bring you back to meet their manager, or other stakeholders prior to making an offer.

      I haven’t often had to do more than 3 or 4 interviews, but it does happen to people. It would raise some red flags for me to go beyond 4 unless there was a really good reason, such as scheduling issues, or it’s an exceptionally high-level role.

      These are my experiences of what I’ve generally come to expect, and I’ve done a lot of job searches! But, they’re all slightly different too. Try not to stress too much, be yourself, act confident and best of luck!

  180. Rez123*

    LinkedIn easy apply. I’ve read a few different articles regarding this feature and people seem to have different opinions including “easy apply=easy rejection” and “great feature. I always go through every applicant” and “it is only good if every detail in your profile is amazing and your heading stands out positely etc.”

    Any experiences? Opinions?

    1. AeroEngineer*

      Completely depends on the company. I have gotten nothing to a phone screening the same day I applied.

    2. Thrown into the fire new manager*

      It probably depends on your field. We post positions on linkedin but the requirements are usually very specific. We have had a ton of non qualified people apply and it was easy reject. We looked at anyone that looked promising. I dont see how different it could be than competing with a stack of resumes. I do prefer reading the applications that cater their resume to our position. If you don’t apply to the LinkedIn ad, how else would you apply? I personally, referred anyone who tried a different route to go to LinkedIn and apply that way anyway. I also found that a lot of people aren’t really using LinkedIn.

      1. rex*

        My idea is that if you’re not gonna take people applying through the feature seriously then why give that option? So, I don’t see it diferent from other ways of applying. The ones I checked seem to have options to apply through company site. So, I was a bit suprised with the online negativity. But then again there are as many opinions as there are recruiters.

        1. Thrown into the fire new manager*

          It costs money to run a position on linkedin so that is another reason it would be silly for companies not to really use it. It is not a free feature for us. I never really understood the pricing but it says per view and per application and its not cheap.

  181. Indie*

    This one is for teacher-people and those of you who act as on hand tech support for relatives… I’m living with my mother, while partner and I house hunt. I moved in last year temporarily when my dad died and then realised I could sell my house while living here more conveniently. My mum and I get on really well and she is an amazing roommate, I’m actually going to miss her when I move out but I am becoming kind of concerned about leaving her alone. She has always seemed so independent and she has a great social network but I have realised she doesn’t like to speak to people on the phone about bills and stuff (my dad’s forte) and she is also somewhat afraid of tech. My dad wasn’t great with tech but he was more willing to have a go and fail than she is. Except that she also loves window shopping online and her new Fitbit.

    Yesterday she wanted to know why her emails to Fitbit were not working after getting an undeliverable message; “Would sharing it on Facebook help? They are telling me to do that a lot.” Somewhat unwisely I let my amusement show when it turned out that Fitbit were just sending her a ‘you go girl’ type of automated message and she had replied with a thank you note complete with emojis.

    So she then reveals she has found an item on Amazon (it is the kind of thing you wouldn’t find in a bricks and mortar store or she wouldn’t even have tried to buy it). I had set up an account with her in the past, and set up her Paypal account too but she says her password isn’t working and hands it over to me in the manner of the helpless, leading me to hand it straight back: “Mum it says ‘forgot password?’ in big red letters – that’s you. Click on that.”
    “Do I want to use the temporary code or reset my password?”
    “I don’t know because I am not you, Mum! Do you want to make the password something easier to remember?”
    “I am never going to remember it though, am I?!”
    “Then just go in with the temporary code”
    “What is that? I don’t know it”
    “It is on the emails that you were just checking a minute ago. Copy and paste it in”
    “I don’t know where my emails are”
    “……..”
    Then she hands it to me and because I am not familiar with her ancient tablet I have to say I can’t find it and I KNOW that she can look up her email usually. She then says “Oh Indie, just buy it for me on your phone!” and I concluded the exchange with NO.

    I have to wonder if I am being a bit patronising and teacher-y with her because I know she will never learn if I do it for her. I am way happier making phone calls for her because she is right there listening and I am modelling what to do and what to say in case she ever has to. She is very skilled at lots of other things and is happy to do me any number of non tech favours, so I feel guilty and mean about yesterday.

    However she has been nearly conned twice by doorstep people offering services until I intervened. She has taken my advice not to agree to deals on the doorstep and then she nearly went and did the same thing with a telesales person. I want her to be more confident in looking up people online and finding services that way. I arranged for us to get a plumber recently (my dad was amazingly handy so this plumber was the first to ever cross the threshold) and I suspect that without me there, she would have just lived with the plumbing problem. I don’t know if I am overstepping because I am just so offended by the idea of someone believing that they can’t learn. I know my brother and sister would just help unreservedly but they are not here all the time.

  182. Julia*

    My flight back to Tokyo got cancelled and now I’m flying early tomorrow. (They managed to put the other guy on the same route into the last seat today, but refused to put me into the last spot in business class because I only had an economy ticket – for today, though.) I’ll arrive Monday morning and will be late for work, and I’m afraid I’ll get into trouble because things have not been great at my new job (as I mentioned two weeks ago). Basically, even before I started, they told me they weren’t too sure about me, left me hanging for weeks after my last interview and then demanded I start immediately, which I couldn’t because they don’t give any PTO for the first six months and I needed to get some stuff back home done before that (and see my family). So I had to fight them on that, then that stuff with my co-worker(s), and now this. The guy I was supposed to interpret for Monday morning is European as well and just wrote back not to worry, but the Japanese bosses and that older colleague who told me off just two weeks ago will probably not be pleased, so now I’m sitting here in my parents’ house after I had already said my goodbyes earlier, crying because the whole situation sucks so much. :(

  183. Me*

    In mid october i was ready to quit my job for the psychological damage it’s causing – increased depression and anxiety to depths not seen since a horrible long term illness.

    I’ve been applying like mad and tanked the one interview I got. A little optimistic idiot part of me says that with the shutdown and the holidays well all the applications I sent in the week before haven’t even been processed! Crazy times we live in!

    Anyway it’s now causing genuine physical issues – my face has exploded and I’m worried it’s shingles. At 30. My mom had it this summer and I spent the last 2 weeks at her place.

    How do I quit with nothing lined up? I’m going to apply to retail jobs in my mom’s town if it is stress related anything since clearly a job where I can afford 2 rents isn’t coming. I’m petrified of going so long without health insurance considering all the legislative craziness at the state and federal level. i’d be going back to TN – literally the only saving grace here and the reason i’m not being dumb and trying bleach on the sores is this state took the medicaid expansion so I can afford a doctor! I also have chronic issues that require a semi annual blood test and take daily medications.

    So I need real advice – how do you quit with no insurance and not enough money to survive? This is AmeriCorps so while i’m making money i’m not “employed” or “working.” I know someone in the commentariat has to have done something similar – especially in the Pre ACA days.

    1. cat pillow*

      1) i had shongles in high school, so don’t rule that out too quickly

      2) uh i’m not sure if i fully understand the rest because frankly, it reads like that fun lik mish mash my brain becomes on high anxiety lvls, but….you’re doing americorps in a state with medicaid expansion while living with your mom?

      if so 3) i’ve watched multiple ppl do americorps while having medical insurance via parent’s plans or medicare, but not necessarily medicaid, including my two current roommates and one past roommate (and other various friends). it’s definitely doable, but if you don’t already have a budget, you’re gonna wanna make one. i use an app for my own budget (mint); probably go as bare bones as you can for a month or two while you figure out what everything’s going to look like, add things back in as you can.

      good luck!

      1. Me*

        Oh sorry! No, I’d have to move in with my mom since I can’t afford 2 rents – the one here and one anywhere else.

        If I quit I lose my health insurance and that’s terrifying. Also terrifying is staying here.

  184. 50questions*

    Any advice for someone with the 75 questions problem, but the asker is your boss? Boss works from home 90% of the time. When she does come in she tends to come in a few days in a week, then we don’t see her for a while. But when she is in she probably asks about 30-40 questions a day. The difference is that she knows how to do everything she asks. She will actually say ‘press ctrl F’, ‘click on that’, etc…. There is no reason at all she couldn’t have done it herself without getting up and waiting for me to do it.

    We are a small office all working in one big open space. I am the only person this is done to, and a couple of coworkers would roll their eyes and laugh about it when I started there, (almost a year ago) but now it is so routine they don’t even mention it. I don’t think the number of questions would even bug me if they were spread out, but the problem is that I now get nothing done for 3 days.

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