open thread – February 22-23, 2019

by Alison Green on February 22, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

    This is not a major problem by any means, but I’m just curious how others would handle this.

    For years, I’d been working with a co-worker I’m not a big fan of. Sometimes this co-worker did good work but other times did some very questionable-quality (but not illegal or immoral) stuff. The manager seemed happy with co-worker. And it’s not like the co-worker created a toxic environment. I just wasn’t a fan of co-worker. Then co-worker got a different job and left. The other job is much better for co-worker (higher pay, for one), and I’m happier now that co-worker is gone.

    But then people keep asking me “Isn’t it lonely without co-worker?” or “Do you miss having co-worker around?” and I’m not really sure how to respond without sounding horrible. I obviously don’t miss having co-worker around, but I don’t wish co-worker any ill will.

    How would you respond?

      3. TooTiredToThink*

        “It’s a change, but I’m really happy for them!” and maybe something like “And I’m excited about my growth opportunity by showcasing my skills.” (or something along those lines).

    4. Not Me*

      You could respond that you’re happy for them and leave it at that. Something along the lines of “I’m so happy for Co-Worker! Sounded like the new position was a great opportunity!” and then immediately redirect the conversation.

    5. Shark Whisperer*

      I think it’s totally fine to say something non-committal like “It’s certainly an adjustment, but their new job sounds great for them” and then change the subject

    6. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Smile, acknowledge vaguely (“yes, it’s certainly different”), change the subject (“how is your spouse?”). The questions will die out quickly.

    8. Deryn*

      I had a similar situation come up, but it was when my office moved from one building to another, which was generally much nicer but had some particular quirks that I found really disheartening (these were really specific to my role and preferences, not necessarily “bad things”). I get a lot of comments about, “Wow, so fancy! Do you just LOVE working out of [new building]? So much better than [old building], right?” After the first time or two, I figured out my go-to phrasing and have just kept that in my back pocket. Since I can’t really bring myself to agree, I’ve been responding with “It’s such a beautiful office, and we’re right on the same floor as our collaborators which is really convenient,” all said in a complimentary tone but without actually agreeing. It’s become such a stock phrase with me that my direct coworker (who knows I hate it there and has heard me say the same thing dozens and dozens of times) has jokingly said I remind her of Sansa rotely speaking of Joffrey in GoT.

    9. Kathleen_A*

      I’ve had exactly the same situation come up, except that (1) the coworker’s work was ranged from so-so to substandard, IMO, and (2) I quite disliked her. I didn’t hate her or anything, but her negative qualities far outweighed her positive ones. She was really great at putting on an act for a few people, though, and none of them had any idea how disliked she was generally. Which is why when she left, most of the other members of the staff were not at all unhappy. “Good riddance” would summarize our attitude pretty well, actually.

      But it made it quite awkward when those people she’d successfully bamboozled came up and commiserated with us on our loss. “Have you heard from her?” they’d say, looking concerned for our well-being. “She’s going to be so hard to replace!” they’d say. “Not really,” we’d all think.

      But anyway, what we all said was some variation on the “The new job sounds like a great opportunity for her” theme.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I like “It’s been a change for sure but I’m happy she’s advanced in her career!”

      I’m thrilled an old co-worker is gone and when she’s mentioned I just smile and remind them she’s where she wants to be.

    13. Indie*

      Are they fishing for how you felt about her? Some people love to sling mud at departing backs. However it’s most likely an inane conversation starter. I’d go with subject changes:
      “It’s certainly quieter! I wanted to tell someone about (whatever’s new with you)”
      “Well it’s always nice to see you! Tell me your news about x”
      “I’m Fine! You?”
      “Oh my God, I am so much more productive being ‘lonely’! I am getting so much done! (This one is a broad hint for people you need to go away).

      I would basically treat it as though they are simply saying ‘are you ok?’

    16. Zennish*

      Don’t do like I probably would and say something like “Yep, they were definitely a coworker…they certainly aren’t here now.” People see right through that, somehow.

    17. Soveryanon*

      I’m going through something similar right now. My coworker, who has been here for over 40 years (!!!) is retiring next week. For some reason, people think she’s great. I don’t – I find her very judgey, very antiquated in her thinking, and quick to throw others under the bus. I feel as though she scrutinizes everything I do, hoping that I’ll slip up or otherwise do something she can go running to our manager about. In short, I just don’t like her, but I’m always polite even when she isn’t. When people say to me “We sure will miss [co-worker],” I just nod politely and say something non-committal like “I know she’s really looking forward to retirement!”

    20. V*

      One thing I said to this a lot when pressed by people looking for an emotional reaction was that – you know – it’s expected in a work environment that people leave. It can be sad but I had considered that it would happen at some point. I think it’s interesting when people are taken completely by surprise by such things.

    23. Anonforthis*

      I’m going through something similar lately – one of my managers left recently, and she was a horrible manager. Literally none of my coworkers or myself liked her. After she left, grandboss scheduled one-on-one meetings with us to see how we were doing and if we wanted to talk through our “grief” of losing her. I didn’t know what to say except, “I’m doing fine!”

      I recommend just turning the conversation back on the people bringing up your coworker. So when people say, “Isnt is lonely without so and so?”, just say “Do you miss her? How did you know her?” to deflect from you.

    24. Lucille2*

      I had a coworker who retired recently, and as much as I liked him as a person, I really felt like his role needed a new set of eyes. His practices were kind of outdated, and he was not open to new ideas. Things kind of had to be done a certain way. In his particular role, doing things the same way they’ve always been done could actually be detrimental to the business in the long run.

      The person who replaced him was a welcome change. When Retired Coworker left everyone acted like it was the end of high school…so sad! I know I wasn’t alone in my feelings, but I simply told people it was the end of an era, but a happy one – especially for Retired Coworker. It will blow over soon enough.

    25. MissDisplaced*

      Definitely non-committal
      “It’s certainly different, but I wish co-worker the best of luck.”

    28. KatieHR*

      You have basically described my co-worker! My co-worker and I share a roll. She does the roll Sat, Sun, Monday and I cover Tues, Wed, Thurs. What ends up happening is that I do most of the work and it drives me nuts. My manager is aware and yet nothing changes. Rumor is that she is applying for another job within the company and I seriously hope she gets it. I will be much happier with her gone.

  2. Struggling to accept peer direction?*

    My new job is much more collaborative than my past job, and I find that I’m itchy as my coworkers assign me tasks or check up on me. I used to have a lot more autonomy to finish tasks as I saw fit, on my own schedule. But now I do basically everything with three peers tagging along, and we tackle virtually every task as a unit, so they want to know the plan when they’re ready to think about it. I seem to be interpreting this as breathing down my neck, which I recognize is my issue. We use a shared task management system and I feel resentful when I see that people on my level, or even below me, have assigned me tasks like “review X report” with a deadline and a box for me to check indicating that I have done this “on time.” Is this a work style thing? Will I adjust to this new style? I really miss being able to choose to wing it sometimes, especially unimportant things. I also dislike the checkbox system … it makes me feel like a cog in a wheel. Am I maybe a jerk?

    1. anonymoushiker*

      I don’t know that you’re a jerk, but if you’re used to being autonomous and having a more hierarchical structure, it sounds like the culture is a huge shift and it’s ok to have these feelings as you adjust. You might figure out as time goes if it’s a good long term fit for you? And it gives you more information about what company cultures to look for with future roles.

    2. Psyche*

      Think of it more as them letting you know when they need it by rather than assigning you a deadline. Are the timelines unreasonable? If you prefer to have more time, why not tell them “For this type of task I prefer to have at least X days notice so that I can prioritize my work appropriately unless there is a pressing need to have it sooner.”

      1. Yikes Dude*

        It sounds like a quirk of the project management software not anything personal or remotely having to do with “assigning work” in the sense that a supervisor would. It’s more like “The SCRUM/GANN/Whatever chart has this piece of the project scheduled to be completed on X date.” When you click the box, you are not alerting your supervisor that you have “done work” so much as escalating the task to the next phase. The language of these tools can be a little “one-size fits none” and I don’t think OP should read into it at all.

        1. OP*

          Yeah I think you two are on the right page for the mental place I need to get to :) Part of it is that you *have* to assign a “deadline” for the task, which to me just feels like a “gotcha!” – like, people at my same level are setting my deadlines now?? They can reassign their tasks to me, due today, and make me look bad for missing the deadline?? But I think I’m missing the point and I need to not take these deadlines/assignments literally. They’re just intended to help us process stuff I think.

          1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

            This is probably the right way to think about it. And if the suggested deadline doesn’t fit your immediate plan, you should reach out to the person and ask if they really need the thing by that day. All you have to do is say, “Hey, Jane, the system says you want X done by Wednesday, but I’m actually tied up with Y all day Monday and Tuesday. Is it okay if I get that to you by Friday instead?”

            I don’t think you need to interpret it as someone else bossing you around by setting deadlines – rather see it as opening a conversation for the purpose of setting expectations. Remember that the other people involved are also trying to plan their lives, so being clear on when they can expect you to hand the project back to them helps everybody.

          2. AnnaBananna*

            Actually, as someone who used to thrive on her autonomy, I now totally cherish my highly collaborative team. I can legitmately look back and see how their input stepped up my work quality in a major way, so don’t discount it just because the way it’s communicated is a little more strict than you’d prefer. Instead reframe it as someone assisting you. Think of how an assistant would schedule your meetings for you. Do you think that the assistant is REALLY assigning work to her boss? Of course not, and this is the same thing. Count yourself lucky that you don’t have to manage the team’s project management because it’s a PITA, I promise you.

            But DO speak up if their timelines aren’t reasonable! And if you have more concern than the scheduling of your part in the process, ask your boss her opinion. I bet you she’ll say something along the lines of ‘we’ve tried it so many different ways and this ended up being the most cohesive’.

    3. Rainy days*

      You’re not a jerk for having these feelings—you would be a jerk if you were obnoxious to coworkers because of these feelings.

      Try listing out the benefits of this system, for you or for the company—“Bob caught a mistake in the report before I sent them”—and see if it can help you slowly change your attitude. If you can’t, at least you’ve learned something about the kind of work environment you want.

    4. Autumnheart*

      I think you’re used to an environment where this behavior seemed like micromanaging, whereas in this environment, it sounds like it’s making sure everyone is on the same page. I work in a very process-driven environment myself, and we have a workflow tool that allows people to see where a given project is and who’s got it in their metaphorical inbox at the moment. And we log our time and have specific deadlines, but it’s not to crack the whip over our heads, it’s to make sure that the business team isn’t overwhelming us with projects, and also gathering metrics so we can see which teams need more headcount, or some workload shifted around.

      You may adjust, or you might find that this type of workflow isn’t your jam. I would suspect that the feelings will taper off once you become more comfortable with the context.

      You don’t say how new you are, but if you give it several months, you’ll probably become comfortable enough to take point on certain tasks. On my team, individuals tend to become SMEs on certain processes or types of projects, just because they do them more frequently than others, and that knowledge is a valuable resource for us to tap. Sure, you could look at it as being a cog in a machine, but you could also look at it as being the go-to person for XYZ on your larger team.

      1. OP*

        Yeah I’m not new at the job but we added new staff and implemented this system quite recently. I think I’m just adjusting. I may be able to work through the discomfort and come out the other side successfully.

    5. sunshyne84*

      You just have to start thinking as a team. You all have a common goal and have different tasks to complete to accomplish those goals. I can see how it would be annoying especially if you know yourself to be reliable and have good work ethic, but this also keeps everyone accountable, not just you.

    6. ChachkisGalore*

      No advice, just commiseration. My last job was like this. What they considered collaboration felt more to me like co-dependency. I always thought of collaboration as working well with others when your individual work overlaps or intersects or if you are assigned a project as a group (though then there would be some sort of team lead or someone directing the project). They did the “tackle virtually every task as a unit” and it was so strange to me. Having multiple people doing the same work (it wasnt that there was so much A that they needed two people to handle it all, it was that two people did all A and all B together, rather than one focusing on A and the other focusing on B) seemed very inefficient to me.

      At the time I chalked it up to them being very new to workforce (all had graduated from college within 6mos-1year prior and this was their first job out of school), whereas I have about 10yrs of work experience, but was only just now getting my career started in this field. In hindsight, I don’t think it was an experience thing. I think it was a culture/preference thing.

      Unfortunately I threw in the towel and moved somewhere that fit my style better. This probably sounds egotistical, but it felt like this setup and these colleagues were holding me back because I had to work at their pace and decide everything by committee. My job now has clearly defined responsibilities, but our areas of responsibility do overlap sometimes and we do a lot of cross training. Its the right mix of collaboration & autonomy that works for me.

      I don’t think you’re a jerk! But you might have to decide if you can let go of your frustration with this style or not, otherwise you’re setting yourself up for a pretty tough experience and that will probably start to show in your work (even if you do good work, if its out of sync with everyone else’s it’s not going to be as valued as you think it should be).

      1. matcha123*

        I am kind of in a similar situation. I don’t mind working with people, but I don’t like thinking out loud and that seems to be the default with this team. On top of that they didn’t explain their work style when I joined, so I spent literally two years trying to figure out why the coworker that’s been there longest dislikes me so much.

        It has been hugely frustrating to be getting negative feedback on trifling parts of my work because I don’t have a non-stop monologue of my thoughts throughout the day.

        1. AnnaBananna*

          Did you ever figure out why the coworker didn’t like you? Two years is a long time to wait. You’re way more patient than me!

          1. matcha123*

            I can only make guesses based on things she’s said in my presence and things that have been conveyed to me through my supervisor. Including: disliking a work program I participated in, assuming that I don’t like older people because I don’t talk to her, and seemingly assuming that I was part of a certain ethnic group (which I am not).
            The annoying part is that I’m being told that I’m the one in the wrong and that I must have some problem with her. I can only guess, again, that it’s related to her preferred work style being one where literally everything is shared with her and checked off by her and she took me not doing that as a personal attack?

      2. OP*

        Thank you for articulating. Today there were four of us on the same phone call, and it was something I would have totally just handled alone in my past job. That means 20 minutes before the phone call one coworker asked me if I had booked a room and the other person asked me to confirm the conference call number and then the second person checked with the first person that they had the right room. To me it is terribly inefficient but I don’t think the org sees it that way so I just need to get in line.

        1. AnnaBananna*

          You’re right, that is inefficent. Since they’re new though maybe it’s just growing pains?

          Also, start documenting all these little time sucks and then -gently- bring it up at the next staff meeting and ask for feedback from your team/boss on how your team can reduce time spent inefficiently. (I mean, for starters, your team can start paying better attention to their own calendar entries, I mean come on.)

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Do you use the system at all or do you just read their messages to you?

      My suggestion if you are not using the system is to start using the system. Any number of things could happen here.
      Maybe this will slow down in a few weeks and the pacing will feel breathable…
      Maybe there are one or two people over use the system and you will find that helpful to know.
      It could be that once you take tighter control over your work flows this will feel differently. I like to plan repeating tasks for certain days or times of day.

      I think I might be tempted to ask a couple people about the check box system. How long have they been using it? What problems were they trying to fix by implementing this system? How do people like it? And does it seem to be working?

      Just a point of curiosity, does anyone ever ask the boss to use the check box system???

      I know I don’t like feeling micromanaged. My work is done and my deadlines are met. But not in the same order that other people would do things. It could just be that the job is a bad fit for you. I am not sure I would thrive in this environment myself. This is why I suggest try to find out some background about the system, rather than letting your irritation fester. Perhaps background will put things in a better perspective.

      1. OP*

        Yeah I agree, I think part of the issue is that I’m just getting pinged all day by the system and I need to take ownership of the system and start assigning tasks instead of just receiving them. That might help my feelings.

    8. Hang in There*

      You are definitely not a jerk. I have a close friend who could commiserate with you on this. Her workplace has instituted a project management software for a very small team, and the way people are using it is feeling really unusual to her. Probably like you, she was used to a more autonomous, independent working style; where you communicated with colleagues with words or an email, and now everything is living in this impersonal project management software. The “getting assigned a task” thing is probably the biggest pet peeve I hear her gripe about. It feels really condescending, even though it’s not MEANT that way.

      I don’t know a solution, but I think she’s been adapting to it a bit with time. At least getting used to the self-reminder that some of this is a bad feature of the stupid system. And as a friend, I allow her to vent about Stupid BrandNameProjectManagemnetSoftware!

      1. OP*

        Yeah I think I will just adjust to it. As others have said, it’s hardly a real assignment, in my past life it would have come by way of a heads-up email and now instead its coming through this software. Guess I just need to switch over mentally.

    9. Sleepless*

      I think you will adjust, but your feelings are understandable! My current job has a much more collaborative style than my old one did. It took forever to adjust. My current coworkers are constantly asking “why did you do it this way?” or “what do you think I should do?” At my old job the first would have meant “you idiot” and the second would I meant “I’m an idiot.” At this job they both sincerely mean “we’re all pretty smart, help me think this through.”

    10. V*

      Depending on how long you’ve been there, if it’s still really new like within 3-6 months, you might not have built up a system of trust with people yet? So they are really task/deadline oriented at the moment.

      Otherwise maybe you can break out the important & urgent, important but not urgent, urgent but not important and not urgent/not important matrix to help them with assigning deadlines with more common sense attached? Seems like you have a really good natural rhythm with when to address high priority vs. low priority projects.

    11. Tysons in NE*

      Going through something similar at the moment.
      The team I am in is changing. Goings and comings and the department overall seeing what they really need with the company growth. So the position that I was brought in for changed almost immediately. Then a new manager was brought in so I went from just doing project work, to project work and payroll and some benefits, then still need to finish up the project and yeah sure the payroll too, BUT no guidance on what else comes under my umbrella until the new manager realizes something happened and then questions it.
      Even to the point that when I let her know what I have seen on how things were done, the manager telling me that while she appreciates me telling her she will probably just change everything anyway. Yes, she is the manager and wants to do things more her way (for some things putting in a better process/structure is well needed here and unlike me, she will have the authority to do so)
      Now, I understand the extra scrutiny while she is getting to know her new people, but seriously, I can answer a basic email question without her micromanaging.

  3. Grim Anon*

    Warning for mentions of death and violence

    I was recently reading through the thread about employees discovering dead coworkers while investigating why they hadn’t shown up for work. It got me wondering if anyone has had a coworker die on company time.

    At my last job, I worked in a specific branch of local government (water access). In a completely different branch in a different office several miles away (public housing), two hourly labor workers got into an argument, one pulled a gun from his locker, and killed the other. An email was sent out to all branches and offices to reassure that it wasn’t an active shooter, just an isolated incident. It caused quite a stir around my office.

    Morbid as the subject might be, I was curious if anyone else have any similar stories to share?

      1. V*

        I heard you haven’t really been initiated at Starbucks until you find your first dead homeless person in the bathroom. But then again I live in a major city.

    2. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      Yup. I used to work for a home builder. One of our sales people was murdered in a model. They never caught the murderer. From then on, company policy was there were ALWAYS at least three sales people at each development. They also installed camera systems inside all the models.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        I remember that story. And as someone who used to work alone in a remote model home, your new rule is great.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Omfg I watched an “I Survived” about a woman real estate agent who was attacked at a showing. It’s so frigging scary. I’m glad your company took steps to make it safer for sales reps.

        1. Liane*

          A real estate agent in our city was killed several years ago in a kidnapping-gone-bad when she went to show a rural house. A (now-estranged) couple were convicted of murder and other charges. A little over a year ago, the family filed suit against the realty company for not doing background checks on clients and not encouraging agents to go in groups to rural/isolated properties. I haven’t read any more on the lawsuit, but the other night at choir a fellow-singer, also a real estate agent, says they are no longer allowed to show solo. I am not sure if it’s a new state regulation or her company policy.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I remember when my parents were buying rural property when I was a kid. It’s waaaaaay too much trust for strangers and solo trips, how terrifying. They met the agents at their office and did lots of checks before casually showing places.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Not my story, but a former coworker’s wife returned to the office after lunch with other office mates to find the one person who stayed to work through lunch had choked on a chip and died.

      (I used to tell this story in parallel with the one about my uncle choking on beef jerky and nearly dying in a car accident, but turns out THAT story was a cover up. He was actually on meth.)

      2. Chuck*

        That story is awful, but your second paragraph made me cackle. And then feel really about about thinking it’s funny. :B

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      A few years ago a coworker had a bad heart attack during a meeting. We kept him alive with CPR until the ambulance came, but he was declared dead at the hospital. The company didn’t give anyone time off, which I think we should have done, but we did bring in a grief counselor.

      2. Fact & Fiction*

        Ugh. I was shaken enough when the cat I kept alive with CPR (don’t judge me cat haters) long enough to get to the vet then had to be put down. I can’t image going through that with a co-worker, and then for the company to not even give you time off…Ugh.

        1. AnnaBananna*

          Wait. Are there people out there that would begrudge a cat a life? Seriously?

          But thank you boo for doing what you could. <3

          1. Fact & Fiction*

            Sorry, I was more joking than seriously thinking people would judge me. Gallows humor I guess. :) I didn’t really stop to think about it; I loved my little guy and was gutted from having lost another cat not long before that so willing to do whatever I could. Honestly, I was pretty proud of myself it actually worked to keep him alive till we got to the vet. But it turned out he had diabetes that we didn’t know about. A lot of cats are apparently notorious for not showing symptoms of things like that until it’s too late. :( We had no clue until I found him cold and unresponsive in the bathtub.

    5. Ali G*

      Over the summer I was working part time at a small non-profit while I was in between jobs. A woman that worked there had a history of a heart condition. One morning she didn’t show up for work and her boss called the police, because she was never late. She had died in her sleep the night before. She’s worked there for like 10 years (all the staff were long-timers) and it was quite the shock to all. It was very sad.

    6. Michelle*

      My 22 year old son found an overdose victim in the parking lot of his job last year. He works AP and a customer said she had been to the store twice that day (hours apart) and the man was laying in the seat, in the same position both times. He went to check on him, couldn’t wake him and called 911. They ended up having to put sheets on the car because people were trying to take pictures of the deceased!

    7. Hold My Cosmo*

      My company’s workforce skews old in certain departments, so there have been several fatal strokes/heart attacks on site.

    8. Ruth (UK)*

      I work at a university and sadly there have been two student deaths by suicide so far this academic year. One by hanging in their room and the other by drowning. The latter was very recent and their body was recovered from the lake on campus earlier this week. The former I only heard about. The latter, I was indirectly present (ie. On campus and with the lake in view) when the police divers recovered the body

      1. Dust Bunny*

        When I was in college, a classmate committed suicide early one morning. I saw the commotion as I was leaving for class but the news hadn’t been released yet. He was supposed to be in that class with me but I think I and another girl who lived in his dorm knew what had happened–the professor commented that he was absent again (he had a troubled academic history in general) but we both sort of froze. It’s been over twenty years and this still haunts me a little bit.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          A dormmate of mine did, too. He lived on the floor below us, and my across the hall neighbor found him when she came back from Christmas break early for sports and things were still chaotic when the rest of us returned. I know what you mean about it being haunting. He was the first of 5 that I have known over the last 25 years–others were relatives and my son’s friends in high school. It’s one of those things that I irrationally worry about whenever my kids or a particular cousin’s son seem just a little bummed out because of so much history of the history around me.

      2. K*

        A student at my alma mater killed himself last fall by jumping out his dorm room window. He lived on the 13th floor. Really tragic to hear about it.
        I believe another student committed suicide last semester as well but I don’t remember the details.

      3. Anon4This*

        I’m in medical education and we had a med student commit suicide last year. It happened at his home but really shook the whole department and they are taking student mental health much more seriously now.

        1. Not Forgotten*

          We had a house physican kill himself on the himself on the midnight shift at the hospital where I worked.

          It was a small rural hospital, where everyone knew each other.

          30 years ago, and I remember it like yesterday.

    9. Aunt Piddy*

      We had two (adult male) coworkers kidnapped at gunpoint in BROAD DAYLIGHT while they were getting gas at lunch. There was a dramatic high-speed chase and shoot out with police. Both coworkers lived, but one was shot by the kidnapper during a standoff (he survived a gunshot to the head with NO ILL EFFECTS! He was up and walking the next day, it was a miracle). The kidnapper was killed by police.

      We worked in a government-related practice area that got many threats, so there was a period where law enforcement was crawling the office trying to figure out if it was related to our work, but it turned out to be a completely random crime.

    11. Old Airline Hag*

      I worked as a ground supervisor for an airline and one of our part timers was really hungry for overtime. He was on his 15th or so straight day offloading a plane when he collapsed with a heart attack. My ramp crew performed CPR and the paramedics shocked him several times before transporting him. He never regained consciousness and died two days later. I had a lot of guilt for offering him all the overtime he wanted, and still deal with it.

        1. Old Airline Hag*

          My head tells me that, but I remember calling him that afternoon and he said he had just laid down for a nap, but would be right in. Doctors told his family it was such a massive heart attack that he was apt to have had it in his easy chair or sleep, but I struggled for quite some time. He was trying to quit smoking at the time and had way too much nicotine gum in his system also–trying to stay awake, I guess. :’/

      2. Emmie*

        I understand why you wish you would’ve handled his requests differently, though I do not see how you could have known that the work, or his medical conditions, or several other factors could have impacted his health. I hope you can give yourself a healthy does of forgiveness for something that was not your fault.

    12. JanetM*

      My university has had several deaths on campus, including student suicides.

      The non-suicides that I know of (I only knew the faculty member, and him not very well) are
      * About 25 years ago, a faculty member collapsed in class and later died in the hospital.
      * About 20 years ago, an administrator had a heart attack in his office. He was found by his admin.
      * In 1995, there was a murder on campus — two people not affiliated with the university lured a third person onto campus and killed her. The killer was convicted and remains in prison pending appeals.
      * Maybe eight or nine years ago, an employee died in a parking garage when her car rolled forward and pinned her against the wall.
      * Just a couple of weeks ago, a custodial worker died (apparently natural causes; I haven’t heard anything otherwise) in her building; she was found when faculty and staff started arriving to work. I don’t know why no one checked on her when she failed to clock out after her shift.

      1. Electric Pangolin*

        A prof at my faculty killed his wife last summer and kept her body in a suitcase in his office for a few days until the police came to arrest him and found it. I didn’t know him and it’s the building next to mine, so I only read about it in the news (all the communication we got from the university was one extremely vague email saying that if we had heard something, counseling was available at the student affairs office, and another saying that the floor his office was on was going to be inaccessible for a few days), but it was quite notable because it hit the newspapers just as they were reporting on the trial of another prof (at a different university in my city) who had killed his wife and daughter the year before in a crime worthy of a murder mystery, by putting a yoga ball filled with carbon monoxide in the trunk of their car.

    13. Busy*

      Years ago, a guy bypassed the safety guards on a large injection molding machine to try to knock out stuck pieces. The mold slammed shut on his head.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        There was one about ten years ago near OldExjob. A guy was doing maintenance inside a big molding press when it suddenly activated and crushed him. They ended up removing the machine; I saw the truck with it loaded on the back a few days later. He was only in his early thirties. :(

    14. Autumnheart*

      Several years ago, one of the freelancers that we’d hired for a project killed both himself and his passenger in a car accident. Apparently they got into an argument and he floored the gas pedal, in a part of town where that is definitely ill-advised, and hit a concrete barrier. We were all pulled into an emergency conference call at the crack of dawn the following morning so our manager could inform us why we were suddenly minus a writer. It was pretty crazy.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Death yes, violence no.
      Last year the man who hired me to this job (and then moved on to head another department) had a heart attack at his desk at the start of the work day. He didn’t make it despite CPR & AED. We’d worked together off & on for nearly 20 years.
      The entire engineering department was called to the room used for division meetings so we’d hear the news at once. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the co-workers who’d found him and kept CPR going until the EMTs arrived. It also made me very aware of the work-till-it’s-done attitude he’d instilled in me, and I was suddenly not so upset the corporation had converted my entire job classification from exempt to non-exempt. We have to go home when we hit 40 hours because no-OT rules…and now I’m HAPPY to do that. I don’t want to die at my desk.

    16. Sheep herder*

      We had an employee in the break room with his head down on the table – everyone thought he was just resting, but he had had a heart attack and died.
      Another employee retired fairly early after being employed here for about 12 years. Two months later, he committed murder/suicide – most of his co-workers still think he was set up and didn’t do it.
      Not a death, be we had another employee flip out and bring a gun onto the premises. We locked down the building and called the police. Luckily, that ended peacefully.

    17. Decima Dewey*

      I wasn’t directly involved, but a guard working the overnight shift at the main library died on the job. They found her body when the person who was supposed to relieve her showed up. The main library scrambled to provide coworkers with grief counselors.

      When I worked for the investment firm, the president of the company came in to tell us that one of the analysts had had a fatal heart attack in his parking space the night before.

    18. Nonnynon*

      Yes. It’s horrible. A few years ago one of our directors had a heart attach while at lunch. Since we’re government as well we were infringed because our ems responded and found his ID. His boss had to go make the identification as the man didn’t have any family in town.

    19. Best cat in the world*

      I don’t think I ever met him but we had a coworker turn up to a scene and a few minutes later, his crew members were alerted to the fact he had also collapsed. They managed to get both him and the original patient to hospital but he (my colleague) was pronounced dead on arrival.

    20. TooTiredToThink*

      Not at my site, directly, but I still remember the day a person passed in the office of another site (small site too). I was helpdesk at the time and later that day the receptionist had put in a helpdesk ticket about something. I called her. Only one of our phones decided to be jerks. I had to call her something like 3 times. I was SO mad at technology that day because she did not need that added stress.

    21. Anonandanon*

      Hubby told me just yesterday a woman he knew at work (a psych hospital) hanged herself in her office. He’s thankfully out on leave due to a surgery and won’t be back there for a couple of months. He can’t wait to get out in three years, and I can’t wait for him to either…too much stress and poor management…!

    22. Hotel Manager*

      I’ve found 3 bodies, two were overdoses, and I actually found one last week, which was an elderly lady who had passed in her sleep. Work in hotels long enough and you’ll eventually find some. I have a colleague who discovered the aftermath of a murder/suicide, which was gruesome.

      1. SignalLost*

        Yep, when I worked at a hotel years ago, a guest had a massive heart attack as his group was boarding for their tour. He collapsed and was pronounced dead by EMS.

    23. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Not exactly on company time, but years ago, a much-beloved longtime employee of the village where I worked had a heart attack and died suddenly after coming home from work one day. It was a huge shock.

    25. LaDeeDa*

      Yes. It was my 6 month in my job, I was sent out of state with the Head of HR, and a few senior HRBPs to announce that that location was being closed, and to deliver the severance packages, offer jobs in other locations, etc etc etc. We had just had the big employees were walking back to their offices/desks and a gentleman had a heart attack and died right there.

      It was awful. I still think about that every time a re-organization or layoffs are happening.

    26. CupcakeCounter*

      We had someone pass very suddenly at my work about 2 years ago in the lunch room. I had left the office for an appointment and when I returned there were flashing lights and sirens going off. A couple months after that another coworker on the same floor had a seizure and it sent a couple friends of the coworker who passed into an absolute panic.

    27. Cat Mom*

      This didn’t happen at work, but I found out about it at work. I worked as a groomer for a large, national pet store chain. One of our coworkers, a girl who was 19, was killed in a car accident. Management told us at work as soon as the police called them. We had to work the rest of the day, sobbing into the dogs we were grooming. I wasn’t allowed to explain the situation to customers and they kept complaining that everyone was so gloomy. Management said they’d give us bereavement leave to go to her funeral. After the funeral they changed their mind and took one of our vacation days instead! I hated that job.

    28. JGray*

      I once had a coworker die when she was in a car wreck when she went home to check her mail. Found out later that there was a malfunction in her car as she was going down the interstate. She was going east bound and ended up in west bound lane. The cops found a pay stub and called the CEO of the company. The CEO then called the director of our division and let him know the news. The director then had to spread the news & it was horrible. The other thing that was a little odd is no one seemed to notice that she was gone for three hours. There was lots of autonomy in that organization so I think people just assumed she was somewhere else. Very sad & tragic.

    29. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      My dad’s boss died of a heart attack at his desk when I was a kid. I also worked somewhere where an employee had been shot across the street from the building, walking to the bus stop after his shift ended.

      One place I worked shared a lobby with a residential program for the disabled, and one of the residents passed away in his sleep. The only way for the coroner to get the body out was through the big, open front lobby, and they went through pretty serious lengths to block off the lobby and divert traffic to the back and side doors so no one would see them wheeling the stretcher with the body bag out.

      I spent many years working in fitness and training first aid/CPR, and while I can’t think of a death off the top of my head, it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have a health event in the facility meriting first aid and an ambulance ride. Slip and falls in the shower, seizures, heart attacks, stroke, diabetic emergencies, fainting from dehydration, overheating in the sauna are pretty common at gyms.

    30. DCGirl*

      When I was in fund raising, the husband of one of our top volunteers had a massive heart attack a a fund raising luncheon and did not survive. It was awful.

    31. Merci Dee*

      We came into work exactly two weeks ago, and were called into an office staff meeting just as soon as we walked in the door. They gave us the news that one of our production team members on 3rd shift had gone out to his car around 3 a.m. and committed suicide in the parking lot. From what I understand, nobody knew that he had been having any kind of problems at work or at home. The whole situation was just really sad, but I have to say that our HR and management team in general has done an excellent job of stepping up to the plate as a result of this tragedy. They immediately announced the general news of the loss to the team members on 1st shift and in the office so that there wasn’t a chance for any wild rumors to grow. They were in constant contact with his family, and made sure that announcements for the memorial service were passed along to all of the team members. They’ve put out more notices for our employee assistance program, and have made announcements about the program and available resources in the start-of-shift meetings. And, this week, they implemented a crisis intervention training program that all team members will be required to attend over the next several months. I’m glad that management is putting new training in place and is emphasizing the tools that team members have at their disposal to help if they find themselves facing difficult times in their lives. But I’m so very sorry that losing a coworker in such a fashion was the impetus for our increased awareness.

    32. Rose Tyler*

      Everything turned out ok but last year one of my reports didn’t show up for work on a day that she had a big project she was working on. She didn’t respond to my text around 9:30 asking if everything was ok and by 11 am I’d contacted HR. Their attitude was that sometimes people do a no show/no call and it was probably nothing, but I insisted it wasn’t like her to do that at all, much less when she had something time-sensitive to work on, and pushed them to call her emergency contact. Her husband also couldn’t get ahold of her so he went home and found her on their kitchen floor having attempted suicide.

      She recovered fully and when she came back to work thanked me because otherwise she would not have been found for hours. I don’t think I did anything remarkable, just sharing here to encourage others to trust their gut when it comes to these things.

    33. Ick*

      Not a death but a police action on a very remote site. We had the federal police sow up to remove a coworker from a remote mine site once. Took his computer and everything. We all speculated for months, turns out he was arrested as part of a child pornography sting. He lived in a small community and has since had to move, no longer works for us, and has had his entire family publicly shun him, which seems about right.

      1. No Green No Haze*

        Listen, that is a terribly depressing story but I have to tell you I stared at “federal police sow” for quite some time before I recognized the typo.

        I don’t know what I would do if a police sow arrived at my work site, much less one on the federal level, but I do know that I would definitely follow all of her instructions because making her mad at me would be terrifying.

    34. Not All*

      I did field work on public lands for decades. Thankfully haven’t had many coworkers who died (a few people on medical leave who lost to cancer, a couple suicides in other locations) but I’m not sure I even have a count on the number of bodies found/helped retrieve. People drown, die of exposure, commit suicide, murder, dump bodies, etc on federal lands all the time. And usually we have more equipment than the coroner does for getting into the back country so even if it’s on adjacent private land, we usually get called to assist with transport. I (thankfully) don’t get upset by dead bodies so used to end up as the person driving the boat/OHV pretty regularly. (Severe injuries really upset me though so I was able to trade off “rescue” duties for “retrieval” duties…worked well for my group.)

      PSA: please don’t go into the backcountry if you don’t know what you’re doing and think your cell phone will save you! And don’t rely on mapquest or googlemaps for remote areas!

    35. Liane*

      1–Extra warning for circumstances of death:
      I did have a campus work-study job at the time, so I think this counts, even though it wasn’t, thankfully, where I worked. Prof. A was the advisor for my friend “Yvonne,” a couple years ahead of me. I knew Prof. A vaguely because he was part of a summer high school program I’d attended. He was found murdered at his home. Of course, Yvonne was upset, and we made plans to attend the funeral. But then Yvonne told me she was having second thoughts because of sordid rumors about the crime, so we didn’t go. Eventually, we learned the rumors were true–it was a torture-murder (not writing the details, they are too horrible) by several young men Prof. A had been involved with. This was the early ’80s, so Prof. A being gay would have been considered sordid by itself. (I was friends with 1 or 2 gay students, so I know that while there was a large, visible local gay community, individuals kept it quiet at work/school.) The murderers were convicted.

      2–No violence, just illegal drugs. My dad was a painting and carpentry contractor. When I was a teen in the ’70s, he had 2 Vietnam vets on his crew (I don’t recall if it was at the same time) who happened to share a name, “Derek S” & “Derek L.” Unfortunately, like many Vietnam vets, they struggled with drug addiction. Dad, who liked them and was sympathetic because of his WWII experiences, kept them on a long time, until their drug use made it impossible, but Dad regretted having to let them go. Derek L visited us a couple years later and seemed to be doing well, but I don’t think it lasted. Years later, Dad told me that both men committed suicide as a result of their problems. Dad never forgot Derek S & Derek L, and mentioned them, sadly, every so often.

      (all pseudonyms)

    36. Anon for this today*

      At old job, my manager pulled us into his office to announce that Fergus from another team had been arrested on child pornography charges and that the strangers in the office that morning were FBI agents seizing his work computer for evidence. My manager also told us that Fergus was out on bail until the trial and would be coming in to work tomorrow, and that we were NOT allowed to talk about it at all with Fergus (I think to avoid harrassment claims from Fergus?).

      Fergus never came to work the next day – he committee suicide that night. I can only imagine how difficult that was for his wife and high school age kids – to find out your dad is arrested for something so awful, and then to have him take his own life on top of that. It was really shocking all around.

      No one wanted Fergus’s window seat after that. They gave it to a new employee – who eventually asked why people were acting weird about her sitting there and learned the whole back story (and proceeded to be a little freaked out that she had his old keyboard – luckily it was plugged in to the laptop docking station so was likely never taken home or used in his sordid viewing habits).

      Of course months later, when it no longer felt like a “cursed” cubical, senior employees felt it was ok to grumble that the newbie got the window seat and they didn’t. Office politics…

      1. rmw1982*

        A former coworker of mine had a “cursed cubicle.” The previous occupant had died from an asthma attack at his desk. Our manager found him. When “Barney” started with the team, he got “the dead guy’s” desk. He wasn’t particularly happy about that but facilities made it clear a desk was a desk and he needed to suck it up.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’m very glad that when my co-worker (and former manager) died of a heart attack at his desk, his office was converted to a mini conference room.

    37. Scotty Boy*

      In the last company I worked for, staff traveled a lot to meet with clients and sell our product/services. A group traveled to an overnight, out of state client meeting. After the first night in the hotel, the staff group gathered the next morning to meet with the client but one coworker was missing. No answer when they called his cell phone or knocked on his door. They thought maybe he’d suddenly had to return home to his family in the night. Turned out the employee had killed himself in the hotel room; housekeeping found him and contacted the police, who alerted his family and the coworkers he’d traveled with. That was extremely upsetting to the travelers and all of us back in the office.

    38. WinethetimeKat*

      Two years ago (I love working for very small companies) I came in and he was there we started talking then his face sagged and he told me” I need to see the sun” I called EMS saying he had a stroke they had me do some things for him but he must have had a second one because his ear started bleeding and his eyes closed. EMS go there about 30 seconds later and were trying to revive him. Went to hospital and found out he was pronounced in the ambulance. Right then and there I said I am not dying at work so I don’t work to late or come in too early.

      1. IrishEm*

        Strokes are so damn scary. One lovely lady I used to work with had a suspected stroke. A customer overheard a coworker telling Manager and offered her services as she worked at a stroke unit of a hospital. Idiot Manager said “No thanks – we have First Aiders” as if they’d know more about a stroke than a stroke nurse. Thankfully colleague was ok, the docs figured it was a tmi (or what ever the acronym for the mini stroke is).

    39. Bend & Snap*

      You would be surprised at how many people die at conferences. For companies before the one i’m at now, we had people get killed in car accidents, via drug overdose, heart attacks, you name it. There are actually contingency plans that security runs when attendees die or something happens to them.

      Sometimes they just run amok and get arrested and there are plans for that too.

    40. I should be working ...*

      My last job, I worked at a remote mine site where everyone flew there and lived there for their shift (working 12 hour days, two weeks at site, two weeks at home rotation). The nearest community was 20 minutes away by plane. One day on a weekend, one of the miners didn’t show up for his shift so his supervisor went to his room to check on him. The miner had died in his sleep from probably a heart attack, but I don’t remember the exact cause. We had a nurse/EMT and an Emergency Response Team on site who had to deal with the emergency until the RCMP could arrive (it was a Canadian mine). These were women and men who were volunteers and at least of few worked with the miner; I really felt for them.

    41. ElspethGC*

      A close family friend, who had previously worked with my mum but left that job to return to teaching, died of a pulmonary embolism due to deep vein thrombosis while at school. I think she left her class with a teaching assistant so she could go to the staff room for something, then collapsed in the staff room. It was a complete shock to everyone; she was only in her late 40s and we’d seen her just the day before.

      1. Jaid*

        One of my co-workers had knee surgery as an outpatient. His family found him the next day after he hadn’t called them… he’d died from an embolism.

    42. sub rosa for this*

      At ToxicJob, we had a Token Suit in our building who was completely useless, but he had an exec admin who basically ran the whole place, very competently. She was young and brilliant and an incredibly sweet person — a real gem of a girl.

      One Monday we came in and a whole lot of things weren’t working right or hadn’t been done yet, and Gem was nowhere in sight. No one had seen her and no one knew what to do. Token Suit retreated to his office with the door closed for the rest of the day, and a lot of stuff didn’t get done.

      Tuesday morning, there was a very brief email saying Gem had passed away over the weekend, found dead in her apartment, and there were no more details. The rumor mill was explosive (young beautiful healthy girl, living alone, big city, you do the math) but no one ever got any facts.

      One fellow took it upon himself to spread all manner of scurrilous X-rated rumors about her and what she was supposedly doing with a supposed boyfriend — but no one knew anything about a boyfriend, and anyway the fellow spreading the rumor was a real creeper who later stalked one of my co-workers, so… well.

      Also, nothing ran right after that, even though the Token Suit eventually got a new admin, and he basically went into a downward spiral that ended up in half the managers under him quitting en masse and a “big reorganization.”

      Some admins really do hold the whole company, or at least the whole department, in their incredibly capable hands, you know? Everyone who worked in that building at the time said the same thing: “Nothing was the same after Gem died.”

    43. Serious Sam*

      At an old UK chemical works, a room was re-purposed to house some servers. It was cool, and there were strange but convenient channels in the floor that cables could be run in. The walls were tiled. It turned out that the room was formally the work’s mortuary. That’s right, when the works was being first built, they expected a sufficient casualty rate to justify an on-site mortuary. Thank goodness for the UK’s Health & Safety at Work act!

      2. ThePinkLady*

        Spooky but well prepared!

        Reminds me that when I was an archaeology student I spent some time processing finds with a local excavation unit which was housed in some Victorian buildings, formerly a railway station. Except for the finds room, which was a detached building next to the former hospital. It conveniently had a large, shallow, rectangular, lead-lined ‘sink’ with water supply and drainage set at waist height against one wall. Yes, you’ve guessed it – I was spending my days washing Roman pottery and glass in the hospital’s nineteenth-century former mortuary. On my own. It was good training in de-spooking, and came in handy the following summer, which I spent cleaning, marking and reconstructing some of 580 skeletons which had come from a trial trench in a medieval cemetery, again on my own, again in a nook in an old building, surrounded by boxes and boxes of skellies.

          1. ThePinkLady*

            After we’ve learned what we can from them, they’re all reburied with the closest appropriate rites. And I’ve never known an archaeologist not to treat human remains with the respect they deserve. I know that this element of archaeology can be disturbing but having been there, I can offer this comfort.

            1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              It’s a part of archaeological ethics that professionals take very seriously. Sure, there is a degree of banter on site but everywhere I’ve worked with has very strict policies on, for example, not posing for photos with any skeletal remains and certainly never posting anything on social media etc. Most places I’ve worked that would be grounds for being taken off site immediately if not terminated altogether.

              Years ago I worked with the human remains in a museum and each individual was kept in its own archival box, and in anatomical order with any associated finds. There was an entirely separate room used only for this purpose. Reburial or repatriation can be difficult, especially if it is not clear what rituals might be appropriate (skeletons don’t always come from secure contexts for various reasons). But they are always stored in a respectful way.

              That sounds like an excellent setup for finds processing though!

    44. Snark*

      I discovered a body while doing field research in college at a little biological station in Costa Rica. Guy was a British tourist, tragically overdressed, who’d gotten some variety of heat-related illness walking on the beach with a full backpacking pack. Wandered into the forest, sat down against a tree, and passed away.

    45. Camellia*

      Yes, last year we had a co-worker who was killed in her own home by her ex-husband, who broke in. Our company was great. Every department has early morning meetings so the announcement could be made personally, gave time off as needed, brought in grief counselors, and did everything they could to help this terrible situation.

    46. V*

      Not on company time but a few years ago two people died in an avalanche while on vacation. I only knew them tangentially but the group they worked with was completely devastated. I was running an event for their group and people literally showed up crying from a meeting where they had all JUST heard about what happened. Needless to say we cancelled the event…

    47. Claire*

      This happened to a co-worker. He was interviewing for a job, when the person interviewing him died in mid-sentence. It was pretty shocking, as you can imagine.

      1. rmw1982*

        A woman was murdered on-campus my freshman year of college. I didn’t know her but I became friends with one of her friends a few years later. The murderer was never caught, AFAIK.

        I also have a coworker at retirement age who works long hours. I worry a bit about walking in one morning (I’m usually one of the first ones there) and finding him dead at his desk.

    48. AnonAnonAnon*

      Back in the day when I worked at a private school a middle school student committed suicide. It was horrible. There were teachers that were closer to her than her parents I felt so bad for them (her mom was a founder of a drug rehab place who never came to school events, student often told parents her mom didn’t have time for her). An upper school teacher committed suicide. His colleagues said they did not see it coming. He was a nice person, if I remember correctly they sent his friend/another teacher to check on him when he didn’t come to school with no phone call. Sad times.

    49. Jaid*

      We’re a pretty big campus (at least a couple thousand employees), so yeah, people have died at work. One of the most memorable was someone who OD’d in a single user bathroom. I…used to use it, but yeah. Not anymore.

    50. MRK*

      We’ve never had someone pass at work, but I’ve had a few work adjacent incidents.
      1. I used to take the train to work and one morning the train hit and instantly killed someone walking the tracks. Poor conductors had to deal with both what must have been an awful scene AND a bunch of cranky passengers since all they could say was there had been an incident. It took a couple hours to get a new train to take us to a station. Whole thing was bad.
      2. There was a man “sleeping” on one of the benches near my work. Someone passing by realized that they well, weren’t sleeping. Typical chaos ensues.
      3. We had a long time regular who lived in the apartments above the business units commit suicide. Whole plaza was devistated, he was a really nice guy and always friendly to all the workers. That one was really heartbreaking to be honest.

      1. IrishEm*

        Oof, those are tough. A neighbour of mine was found on the DART tracks one morning after either falling or jumping from up over Bray Head somewhere, and it was just awful :(

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Remember Colin Ferguson, who shot up a Long Island Rail Road car? I had sat next to him many times on our commute. (That journal of his was 100% memorable.) A couple of my hometown friends were on the train that day, one shot (recovered), one “just” in the next car and traumatized.
        Happily, I had missed my train, staying late for irrelevant reasons.

        1. Slartibartfast*

          One of the victims of the first post office shootings was my daycare provider’s husband. She had to go back to full time work and mom had to find somewhere else for us to go. I was young but I won’t ever use the phrase “going postal”.

    51. ThePinkLady*

      I’d just started in a new department, supporting three specialists, one of whom worked remotely. He was due to come into the office for a couple of days to spend some time with me, so on day two I called his mobile to set something up, leaving a voicemail. I had no reply over the next couple of days of the same thing, and my colleagues were increasingly concerned as he was usually on the phone once a day. Turns out he had gone out into a field and ended it all on the day of my first call – away from home, so that his family wouldn’t be the ones to find him. So I’d been calling his phone for several days as it lay with him there. As a young 20-something, this rattled me for some time. He was lovely, much too young, and I still think if him often, 25 years on.

    52. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      I was a federal employee working in a federal building shared by a couple of organizations. When I came to work that morning, our building was surrounded by police. We had an active shooter incident. The guy killed our beloved janitor and injured two of my colleagues. He didn’t even work in our organization. He just randomly shot people as they came to work.

    53. Anon for this*

      A coworker of mine commit suicide a few months after he was fired from the company where we worked. GrandBoss, who was in another office, called each of us that day to let us know though we had already heard from on site HR. Our department was spread out across multiple offices in different parts of the country. Turns out, GrandBoss only told managers and staff who worked in the same office with Coworker. Some of our non-local colleagues were good friends of Coworker and asked about how he was doing, had anyone heard from him. Unfortunately, one of my colleagues had to break the news to good friends of Coworker’s many months after he passed away. I’m still upset about it.

    54. IrishEm*

      One lovely former coworker called in sick at 10am, and when her son called in to see if she wanted any lunch (between12-2ish) she was cold in the bed, dead a while. She must have been feeling truly awful, as she wasn’t one to call in sick very much. She was one of the sweetest people you could ever hope to meet, and I’ll always remember bopping with her to the cheesy muzak in the fitting rooms when we were assigned to them together.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This happened to the wife of my grandboss at an old job, a lovely sweet woman. She was feeling under the weather, like she had the flu, and went to the doctor. They sent her home and told her it was probably a virus. Well, it was congestive heart failure, and her daughter went over to pick her up so they could do some shopping and found her dead on the bedroom floor.

        As if that weren’t bad enough, her husband was in our office several states away and got the call from his daughter at work. We quickly got him packed up and my boss booked him a flight, and I drove him to the airport as fast as possible and he flew out that evening.

        I was in charge of the plants in the office and when the business closed later, I adopted some of them, including a three-foot-tall ponytail palm that had been her pride and joy. Unfortunately, it died during the 2007 ice storm when I had no power–it was too heavy to move out of the cold house. I was pretty upset about losing it, because I had really liked her. The two pothos from that same office survived, though. And that office closed in 2001! I like to think she would be proud that I kept them going so long.

        1. IrishEm*

          I’m sorry, that must have been tough to go through. I bet she would have loved to know you kept those plants going :)

    55. Ltrim Press Club*

      3 months ago I was walking out to my car, paused and did a double take. The gentleman who had pulled up and parked at the sidewalk to unload was dead. I knew from one look at him that he was gone. (I got help, dialed 911, but he never responded to the efforts.)

      He wasn’t my coworker, but someone who worked in our building for a different department. I remember him being quiet, but polite.

      I still think of him every time I walk out that building.

      Worst though were the people who walked by thinking he was sleeping. Most people do that with eyes close. :(

    56. Common Welsh Green*

      Yes. One of the men out on the production line felt dizzy, left the line to sit in the cafeteria, collapsed, and died. His wife, who was driving in to pick him up after work, passed the ambulance as it was speeding away from the plant.

    58. Buffy*

      Three years ago a colleague of mine did not show up at work, without notice. Turned out he had killed himself that morning. After first having killed his ex-girlfriend with an axe.

      He was pretty new to our department, we heard only later that he had prior mental issues. I have felt very guilty for quite a while for not seeing any signs that he needed help, though I know that’s not reasonable.

  4. Murphy*

    Is it ever OK to follow up on a job application? I applied to another position at the university where I work that I’m really interested in. It closed 2 weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything. I’m assuming that’s a no, which has me pretty bummed. My experience does not make me a shoe-in, but isn’t out of the question. (The only place at the university that would give you appropriate experience would be already being on that team.) I didn’t reach out initially because I don’t know anyone on that team and I didn’t want to show too much “gumption” or circumvent the application process. Would it gain me anything to reach out, or is this just my sad feelings talking?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This is just me, but I would try to put it out of my mind, even though I know it’s difficult. Two weeks could be that they haven’t finished reviewing, or that they had better candidates. It’s not super likely your application was lost. i find that the best way to move on is to get excited about a new application and have lots of apps out there.

      1. Murphy*

        Thanks…I’m trying. For various reasons I don’t want to leave the university, so I’m sticking to internal postings at the moment, which is obviously limiting.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I guess it depends on what you mean by “OK”? Will it give you a better shot at the job? Doubtful. But I’ve followed up on hiring managers who’ve ghosted me, and at least then gotten an actual confirmation I didn’t get the job (yes, these were situations in which I interviewed in person, and they couldn’t even be bothered to send me form rejection email). So you might get a confirmation at least.

      But, no hiring managers are sitting around going “Murphy would really be our top candidate. Too bad Murphy hasn’t reached out. Guess Murphy isn’t interested. We’ll move on to the next candidate,” unless “reach out” in this context means “replies to our emails” or “returns out phone calls.”

    3. Mediamaven*

      You should definitely connect via email and follow-up. I’ve had several instances where I didn’t move forward with an application because I get so many, that person followed up and I reread the the original app and brought them in, sometimes actually hiring them! It can’t hurt!

      1. fposte*

        Oh, that’s pretty unusual. Can I and other hiring managers convince you to stop doing this, unless you’re in in a field where hiring is a clear exception to usual practice? Because with most of us, it won’t help and might hurt to nudge, and hiring somebody because they nudged you even though they hadn’t made the first cut seems to be prioritizing candidates for qualities that aren’t officially what’s sought.

        Murphy, for a university hire I’d give four weeks minimum before asking about the time frame. And I’d make sure it was a closure date, not just “for best consideration apply by.”

        2. Blue*

          Agreed, four weeks would not be unusual in university hiring, unfortunately. Two weeks is definitely too soon to give up hope. I’m actually on a search committee right now for a position that closed over two weeks ago, and no applicants have been contacted at this point. That’s kind of how it goes.

          2. ArtsNerd*

            This. Took me three months to get hired into a position I was already doing the work for at a university back in the day.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I’m going to join fposte in encouraging you not to do this. Not only does it reward candidates for things that have nothing to do with how good they will be at the job, but it continues a tradition of you missing out on otherwise good candidates whose original apps you didn’t re-read and who may have been better for the position.

      3. Triplestep*

        I’ve had several instances where I didn’t move forward with an application because I get so many, that person followed up and I reread the the original app and brought them in, sometimes actually hiring them!

        *Sigh*. My job search of 9 months ended successfully, but this makes me want to scream. I was ghosted so many times by hiring managers and recruiters with whom I had gotten past the application stage (meaning anything from a phone screen to multiple in-person interviews). What this tells me is that some of of them might not have dropped me and “forgotten” to get back to me had I simply nudged.

        Anytime a friend suggested I follow up, I’d say “I can guarantee that if they even bother to take or return my call, they are not going to say ‘oh, we totally forgot to hire you … we’ll start the process right away!’ But apparently – at least for some – that’s exactly how it goes.

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          I think this is more of an exception than a rule. About 99% of the time I receive a followup after just a resume submission, it just reinforces my decision to put them in the “no” pile.

          I think in your case, after interviews, the only thing I would have to say is that we haven’t made a final decision yet OR that we’d made the decision and my apologies for not letting you know.

          I agree with you that it’s not likely to change the outcome (if you were hired, they would have told you), but it does give some closure and/or lets you know the process is just longer than expected.

          1. MoopySwarpet*

            I should add that the other 1% of the time, it annoys me to the point it drops them out of the “maybe” pile.

            BUT . . . I always respond to them (politely) and let them know that we are going a different direction. So, there’s that . . .

    4. merp*

      This is sort of a side issue but 2 weeks seems like it would be a pretty fast turnaround, at least at the university where I work. In my experience, they just take forever. I know you already work there so you know better than I would, but it might just be too soon!

      1. Murphy*

        You may be right! It’s been a few years so I don’t remember what the time frame was when originally got my job and different teams may be different. They’re understaffed so I thought if they were interested I might have had some communication by now.

        1. Sam Sepiol*

          Haha, I hear they’re understaffed and presume that even though that means they want to fill the position quickly it will take 3x as long as they anticipate

      2. Twinkle*

        Coming to say the same thing. I’ve been involved in hiring at my university over the last couple of years and we have never got back to someone within 2 weeks – I think the fastest would have been over a month, and that was only because we desperately needed to spend out grant funds (which were to pay the salary of the person hired). I wouldn’t contact them after 2 weeks; there a very real risk they’ll think you don’t understand how university processes work (not to say that you don’t, just is the risk of creating this misperception!)

        Also, best wishes with the job :)

    5. Call of Dewey*

      As someone who hires at a university, I can tell you it takes a lot longer than you would expect. My last position we didn’t reach out to candidates until almost a month later (and this was for a staff, not faculty position). So don’t follow up, that doesn’t tend to be received well, but 2 weeks doesn’t mean you aren’t a candidate.

    6. Bye Academia*

      I want to chime in to second? third? everyone saying that two weeks is absolutely nothing in university hiring time. I have a staff position at a university, and I didn’t hear back that I got a first round interview for two months. At least at my university, emailing after two weeks would do nothing and also make you seem impatient, even as an internal applicant. While your current team may have moved faster when hiring you (and if it didn’t, that’s something to remind yourself!), the other team may not. Just leave it be, and if they want to contact you, they will. I know it’s hard though!

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I would say it’s not just university hiring. I’ve worked in K-12 schools, and I’ve never seen a permanent hire happen within two weeks of a closing date (well, usually there isn’t a specified closing date, but even a month after a job is posted). Typically, we’ll get a bunch of applications, spend a week or so sifting through them, doing phone screens over the course of another week or two, and then scheduling people to come in in person a couple weeks later… or sometimes a month later, depending on how busy things are. Most of the time I’ve been involved in hiring, all the people doing the hiring are not doing hiring as their primary job, so how fast they get through application reviewing and candidate interviewing greatly depends on how busy their primary job is.

        1. Murphy*

          I was thinking more that I’d heard something if they were interested, definitely not that they’d have a decision by now! But it still might be too soon, I guess.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Yeah, but sometimes even applications can be held up. The one time I worked in higher ed, HR wouldn’t even let us see applications for three weeks, and we were the hiring department, not them! So phone screens couldn’t even happen for almost a month.

          2. Just commenting to say...*

            It definitely might still be too soon! I work in higher ed and years ago I was up for a promotion that I’d applied for specifically because the hiring manager asked me to, so I knew I was going to get an interview (in fact, I was reasonably certain I was going to get the job), but it still took a couple months to get everything scheduled! Higher ed is just super duper slow sometimes.

          3. SignalLost*

            I still have open applications at my local Big U from my job search last year. They may also need to hit a certain pool size. If you see the position re-listed, it doesn’t automatically mean you weren’t selected.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For my first ‘real’ job out of college, the university position had a July apply-by date, I didn’t hear until August, interviews didn’t happen until September, start date was in October. I tempted a lot that year – I’m happy on your behalf that you’re within the same university so it’s not the temping frenzy I went through.

      3. Asenath*

        Universities are SLOW, and some departments are worse than others. I got a job in a university office months after I applied. I had assumed that they’d rejected me and simply not bothered to let me know so I continued job hunting. I was still available, though.

    7. BRR*

      I would ask what you’re hoping to accomplish. Following up on an application has the potential to do a lot more harm to your candidacy than good. The best thing you can do is to assume you didn’t get the job and move on mentally. If you hear anything it’s a pleasant surprise.

      1. Murphy*

        Probably convey my enthusiasm, which yeah, is pointless.

        I’m just at BEC level with my job, where I mostly sit alone at my desk with not much to do, so it’s difficult not to think about it!

    8. sammy_two*

      I work at a university and HR is notoriously slllloooooowwwwww because of all of the boxes that need to be checked and processes that need to be followed. It honestly would not gain anything for you to follow up (they have all of your materials and will contact you if interested in bringing you in for an interview), however it’s possible they haven’t contacted any of the candidates yet. Maybe the search administrator didn’t have their stuff together and couldn’t get the search committee together yet to review applications, etc. I also know that it seems we get a lot of applications for every position and sometimes it can come down to who you know to get to the interview stage. If you can get out more on campus (join associations or organizations where you’ll get to meet more people, or take on visible leadership positions) more people will get to know you. Good luck!

    9. Amylou*

      The time between my application and invite for first interview was over a month for a previous university job. It’s bureaucracy, it’s slow – put it out of your mind. I applied to several positions there, and they only send a form rejection note at the very end of the process after they hired someone at this particular institution.

    10. Cruciatus*

      Just to add to what others are saying…I also work at a university. It took months for them to call me. It was so long I had to go back through my notes to remember which position it even was. I had also assumed it was not going to happen but then one day I (obviously) finally received a phone call for an interview. Definitely give it some time (and try to forget about it which is easier said than done)!

    11. Mass Hirer*

      For what it’s worth, I do tons of hiring (seasonal work). If I get a reminder/follow-up email*, I do often end up getting back to that candidate more quickly. It’s doesn’t change my answer, or their strength as an applicant, but I will often quickly check and respond with either an interview offer, job offer, or polite rejection. Important qualifier here, though, is I (and my company in general) do always reply to every candidate with either good or bad news eventually.

      *one follow-up, at least ten days after the application. For interviews, I always say “you should hear back in about two weeks, if you haven’t heard by then for any reason, feel free to reach out.”

    12. Happy To Report*

      I’ve applied to three university (fundraising) jobs within the last 6 months and only one of them got back to me within 2 weeks.
      #1: Got back to me quickly for the phone screen end of October, set up the interview for a week or so later (Election Day), said they’d get back to me before Thanksgiving, followed up in January to find out I didn’t get the job.
      #2: Applied mid-December, contacted mid-January to see if I was still interested, set up an interview for the end of January. Second interview last Friday (mid-Feb) and they had expected to tell me more by beginning of this week, but now it’s mid next week because they are waiting on HR.
      #3: Applied mid-January, mid-February contacted to see if I was still interested, interview scheduled for three weeks later.

      Both #2 and #3 had search committees, but #1 did not.

    13. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I put in for a new job at a local hospital a couple months ago. I hadn’t heard back and sort of gave up. Then I got a notice from their automated system notifying me that my resume was in consideration for the position. Some places just move like molasses.

      The worst I’ve ever had is near unbelievable to me, had I not lived it. I once got a call to set up an interview 11 months after I originally applied. When I asked why they were calling me nearly a year after I applied, the woman responded they were ‘a little bit slow’ in getting back to me but they were absolutely excited to interview me because my cover letter indicated I was unemployed and able to start immediately upon hiring. I declined because I had long since found a full time job and zero faith in their HR/management.

        1. Triplestep*

          I’ve had two experiences with Universities, neither of them good, but these might help you put the two weeks into perspective: One of them ghosted me after I had been a finalist (i.e. multiple interviews) but got back to me 8 months later to say they’d selected someone else. A friend of mine had been another finalist, and we laughed about this a lot. We figured out via LinkedIn who had gotten the job, and she’d had it for several months by the time they told us. And their rejection was not even automated, so it wasn’t as if someone just had gotten around to clicking a button and it triggered the message.

          For the other job, the Hiring Manager had gone back to the applicant pool after they’d been through on round of interviews, made an offer, and it was rejected. So it was about three months between application and first contact. I had a phone screen and then two days of interviews with four small panels. This was over a period of two weeks. Then they ghosted me. This was last August. They seem to have reorganized about a month after I interviewed – I can see their org chart online and they added two positions above this one. But they are all still open, as is the one I was considered for. It’s on their org chart, and if I log on, my application says “under consideration”. I have found and started another job, but I haven’t withdrawn from this one mostly because I want to see what will happen. Will they go into their applicant tracking system and realize they have all these candidates who are technically “under consideration”?

    14. Alli525*

      1. Because you already work there, I think it’s much more understandable if you gently nudge HR or the hiring manager to see if there are any updates on the job search.

      2. Is the posting DEFINITELY closed? Just recently I revisited a bookmarked job posting and saw that the listing had expired, but when I searched the company on that job site, the position had been re-listed. I think some posting sites must have automatic expiration dates, but that doesn’t always mean the position has been filled.

      1. Murphy*

        I’d definitely get a notification if it was filled, which I know would take a lot longer than 2 weeks. I looked back and it does say “anticipated closing date” of two weeks ago so it might still be accepting applications.

    15. Hotel Manager*

      It sounds like you’re an internal candidate. Everytime I’ve applied for an internal position I’ve always shot an email over to the HR screener from my company email saying something along the lines of “hey there, I applied for X-position and didn’t want my application to get buried among externals”. Depends on the company of course, but mine tries to hire management from within when they can.

    16. Rock Prof*

      I’m seconding all the other academic advice here to wait. I’m currently on a hiring committee for an academic staff position, and the position opened about a month ago and closes today. We aren’t even meeting for another two weeks to separate into “possibly” and “definitely not” piles.

    17. Public Sector Manager*

      Generally, I wouldn’t follow up. There is no problem with following up once, as long as you keep it polite, short and sweet. Where applicants get into trouble is that they follow up multiple times (and rarely are those people at the top of the to-be-interviewed pile) or are so aggressive in the follow up that it is off-putting. But the truth is if they want to interview you, they will find you.

      Also, I’m at a public agency, and if the university is anything like us, they will be notoriously slow. Generally our time frame works like this: 2-3 weeks after the close of the application period we’re waiting for HR to do a pre-screen to determine who meets the minimum qualifications. Our actual guidelines read one week for this process, but it’s always 2-3. Then we contact people for round one of interviews, which will be scheduled around week 4-6, depending on our own internal schedules and applicant availability. Then another week figuring out who should come back for a final hiring interview, and sometimes that takes 2 weeks. Then another 2-3 weeks to schedule the final interviews, another week to reference check, another week for any last concerns to be expressed, and then the next week we make an offer.

      Although it has been a few years, when I applied for my current agency, I applied at the end of July, was contacted in August for an interview at the beginning of September, contacted in late September for a final hiring interview at the end of October, made an offer mid-November, and started mid-December. That’s quick compared to the group we hired last fall. Final hiring interviews didn’t conclude until mid-December and offers were not extended until January, all for a group of people who applied in July.

      Best of luck to you!

    18. ThatLibTech*

      As someone who works in the uni environment (that has a union): it takes forever unless its a project position. I applied for my current (perm, FT) job in May and didn’t hear back until the beginning of August, and it’s pretty much the norm for this environment unless you’re making a lateral move/applying for a project position. However YMMV!

  5. Namast'ay in Bed*

    We have a newish intern on our team and one of the benefits they were supposed to bring was taking a fairly simple but time-consuming task off my plate, leaving me free to work on more important projects. This task is simple, but it is also incredibly important. However, the first time the intern worked on it, it apparently didn’t go 100% smoothly, so my manager has decided to keep assigning this task to me, because “they can depend on me to do it right and in a timely manner”. Being told repeatedly that I am awesome, a lifesaver, and other such complements is very nice, but I’m honestly frustrated that I have to keep doing this time-consuming task, which is taking me away from the work I want to do and am supposed to be focused on, all while the intern keeps asking for work to do. It feels sort of like I am being punished for being good at something (which honestly a lot of it has just come from repetition, something the intern is not getting because our manager has decided they can’t be trusted to do it).

    I understand that my manager is completely strapped for time and they get hauled into meetings every time the task isn’t performed perfectly, so it makes sense from a limited resources aspect that it’s easier to keep making me do it. But I’m starting to get resentful every time I have to stop what I’m doing to take on this task. Do you think there’s a respectful way to ask if there’s a game plan/time line for the intern to take on this task again?

    1. neverjaunty*

      The intern is supposed to be learning this task, yes? (Hence intern, rather than employee.) You can respectfully tell your boss about it right now, saying that you completely understand that it’s a hassle for Boss when the task is not done perfectly, but the point of the intern was to take this task off your plate and for the intern to learn about the task. I would phrase it as “given this, what’s the best way for me to work with the intern to do this task while minimizing any hassle o ln your end?”

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        I think that’s a good way to frame it, I think my boss has just been in survival mode so framing it in a “let me make this easier for you (which will then make it easier for me)” is a good way to go.

        1. Gumby*

          Another possible benefit to the org: it is never a good idea to have a critical task that only one person at an organization can do.

      2. TootsNYC*

        the first time the intern did it, it didn’t go smoothly? Gee, I wonder why…

        the point of an intern is to train.

        So maybe ask your boss if you can work with the intern to transition it over to them, and point out that the reason you’re good is that you’ve had practice, and that if you can supervise the intern, THEY can get enough practice.

        And that by working WITH them for a few go-rounds, you can get a much better assessment of WHY the intern struggled the first time, and whether they’ll be safe to hand it off to later. And promise that you won’t let it go if you think the intern can’t do it right.

        Maybe even point out that by working more closely with the intern, you will be able to find ways to create documentation, or find glitches that can be streamlined so it’s easier for someone else to do it without you later. (I find that working with a rookie helps me see all the flaws in the systems we have set up.)

        It may actually be more work to work with the intern on it, but there’s a potential payoff.

    2. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

      Do you think there’s a respectful way to ask if there’s a game plan/time line for the intern to take on this task again?

      Yes, and I think you should do it. Very few people do something 100% perfect the first time they ever do it, there’s always some kind of training period needed. Your boss needs to let the intern do what the intern was brought on for.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Plus, think of how demoralizing it must be for the intern to make normal* mistakes, and then having no chance to improve.

        *Assuming these were normal newbie mistakes, and not egregious screw ups

      2. Lurker*

        Also – you could offer to supervise/troubleshoot/train the intern so that the mistakes or issues get caught and it isn’t increasing your manager’s workload. Might make your manager more willing to let the intern take another stab at it!

        1. Zombeyonce*

          Assisting in the training here seems really important, and I wonder if the intern was just given the task with minimal instructions or if they actually got helpful training and documentation on how to do it, and then had it reviewed after it had been completed. Those are all important steps to learning a new task, especially one that’s time-consuming.

          This could be a great time to improve any documentation/instructions on how to complete the task. I think it’s definitely worth the time to do that since interns are temporary, so if a future intern is given this task, you already know the instructions are up to snuff. Working on those instructions with the intern would also be beneficial to you both. The intern would learn about documentation and the OP would get good feedback about what in the instructions was confusing or needed clarification.

      3. Namast'ay in Bed*

        That’s another part that has been so frustrating – I definitely stumbled a bit when I first learned how to do this task! So it feels ridiculous for them to now be like “oh nope, not perfect the first time, you blew it”.

        1. Blue*

          I even think this would be worth mentioning when you talk with your manager. Like, “I know it took me a couple of attempts to master this task, so I still have every confidence Intern will be able to deliver as we need them to.” And I agree with the others – you might volunteer to work with them closely the next time around, or to review their work, or whatever makes sense. That sounds like time worth investing if it means convincing your boss to transition this back to the intern.

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          If it’s appropriate to use pop cllture references where you work, you could remind your boss of the episode from MASH where Col. Potter was frustrated at Klinger’s incompetence as Radar’s replacement, until Father Mulcahy pointed out that Radar was also terrible when he started out but Col. Blake gave him the chance to grow into the job and make it his.

    3. anonymoushiker*

      I don’t know the language, but I’m sure I’ve seen Alison answer questions tangentially related to this, so you might dig around in her archives to see if you can find examples.

    4. Ishouldbeworkingrightnow*

      Is the task something Intern can do and you review after? Like you said they can’t get better with out training and practice.

      1. Psyche*

        That does sound like the best plan. Or you can do it with the intern a few times, which will be very time consuming but after that hopefully you can convince the boss to trust the intern to do it without as much oversight so long as you are available in case they run into a problem.

    5. JobHunter*

      Reassigning a task because of inexpert execution the first time…sounds like you have an opportunity to discuss cultivation of patience. I would probably take the tone of “We all started out not knowing how to do something. Since I do this time-consuming thing a lot, I would be happy to walk Intern through the process once or twice. After that, she is welcome to ask me for advice when she gets stuck.” when making the request to your boss to have the intern resume that task.

    6. WellRed*

      Please bring it up again. It’s not reasonable for an intern (or anyone) to master a task on the first try so maybe it’s possible for you to oversee it more closely, but still not have to do it.

    7. Amylou*

      Oh that sucks and sounds familiar!

      I’d say something like this, emphasising the impact on the actual work that supposedly your manager wants you to finish, and emphasise even more a solution and that you’d be happy to get Intern on her way with this task:
      – Hey boss, I’d like to talk about Intern taking over task X again. Doing X takes up quite a lot of time, and is starting to cut into my time to do A B C properly. I’d propose for Intern to start doing X as of Time, she’s been eager to learn new things and I’d be more than happy to take some time and train her on X, and check her work afterwards to ensure its quality. I’m confident she can handle this – it’s not easy the first time around, but I’m sure she’ll get it after doing X a couple of times.

      As long as you present a problem + solution, and especially one where your boss doesn’t have to lift a finger except say ‘yes’, I can’t see what’s the problem… (caveats for crazy bosses apply)

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      Or can you phrase it as a question? Assuming the mistakes made were normal learning mistakes.

      “Boss, I know there were some problems with interns initial attempt, but I think they could absolutely learn to do this well, and the benefit of transitioning it to them would be freeing up my time and effort to focus on things like X, Y, Z. Can I try working with them on this task again to help them improve? If we’re not seeing the level of quality you expect after X tries (or X amount of time), we can revisit it again, but I really think this is something intern could manage if we give them the chance to succeed.”

    9. Not So NewReader*

      If the intern keeps asking for work to do then the boss really does not have a defined internship available for this person to do.
      What I would do is ask the boss to take one of three things off my plate: The boring task, the intern who keeps asking for work or my regular work. I’d say it nicely, perhaps as in, “Okay so now I am doing Boring Task plus my regular work annnnd Intern asks me regularly for more work to do. It’s chewing up a lot of my time finding things for them to do. Can we come up with an action plan for this? “

    10. AnonAnon*

      (1) If the task is incredibly important, to the point that your higher-ups have to call your manager into meetings every time it isn’t performed correctly, then it might actually be too important to assign to someone at a lower skill level.
      (2) If you hired an intern to perform the task, and they didn’t do it 100% correctly, why is anyone surprised? It takes time for people to become proficient. Did anyone supervise the intern? Or did he just get thrown in the deep end? Asking a new employee to do a new task and then over-reacting when they don’t do it perfectly is a massive over-reaction.
      (3) What do they think will happen when you aren’t around? Eventually you will need a sick day, or you will find a new job, or maybe you’ll just get run over by a bus one morning. If there is no redundancy in your department, I bet the higher ups will be REAL happy with that.
      (4) You say that your manager is strapped for time. There’s another failure of leadership. People sometimes call this being in permanent ‘reaction mode’ or ‘trying to keep their heads above water.’ Essentially, the stakes are so high and the tempo is so fast that nobody has the time to actually sit down and train and mentor junior workers. When every day brings a crisis du jour, nobody is thinking or planning for future requirements. I don’t know whether this accurately describes your office, but if you can’t take the time / resources / risk required for training new people there is a bigger, systemic problem at work.

  6. Daughter of a Job Searcher*

    My mom is starting to look for a new job. The thing is, she’s been at the same job for 20 years and has only made lateral moves within the company during that time (being moved to different departments as they needed her to fill slightly different roles over the years. She’s unsure how to put this on her resume. Any advice for her?

    1. FFHP*

      Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory 1999-present
      Juicing Room 1999-2005
      Accomplishments
      Chocolate River 2005-2010
      Accomplishments
      Boat Operator on Chocolate River 2010-2015
      Accomplishments
      Golden Ticket Creator 2015-present
      Accomplishments

    2. Annie Moose*

      In addition to what FFHP says, if there’s roles that had extremely similar accomplishments/work, you could combine those specific ones, e.g.

      Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory 1999-present
      Juicing Room 1999-2005
      – accomplishments
      Chocolate River 2005-2010
      Boat Operator on Chocolate River 2010-2015
      – combined accomplishments from these two very similar roles

    4. Alli525*

      Adding on to what FFHP and Annie Moose have said – her cover letter would be a great place to explain why she hopped around within the company and all the various skills she’s been able to build. This could also help assuage any concerns that the company has shuffled her around because she’s difficult to work with or whatever (this was something I saw a lot at my last job, admins were shuffled around as their bosses – not the greatest people – neglected to train them properly and then got frustrated at suboptimal performance. Shocker!)

      I usually have a line about “I have worn many hats at the organizations I’ve worked for and enjoy learning new skills and gaining a breadth and depth of knowledge about those companies’ functions and goals.”

      1. Daughter of a Job Searcher*

        Ah okay! I’ll let her know! Thank you!

        Yeah, at least 1 instance of why she was shuffled around was because the department she was in was eliminated as her company changed some things. Other times (from what I know), they needed her in a different area and then decided they wanted her to stay there.

  7. Disappointed anon*

    My department is heading into its busy season in a couple of months. We’ll have augmented staffing for the teapot makers around the clock, and the department manager said a few weeks ago that two people in the department will be temporarily promoted to supervisor positions during the busy season.

    I’m a teapot designer with 15 years of experience in teapot making and teapot design, including 5 years at this company, and a track record of high performance. I’ve been trying to get into management for the past few years. I applied for the Teapot Making Supervisor job the last two times there were openings, and I was passed over mainly because I have very little management experience. Both times, the person who got the job had management experience from being a temporary supervisor during the busy season.

    I was told that a good way to get some management experience was to go into the manager-on-call rotation on nights and weekends. I volunteered to go into the rotation, along with one other teapot designer and the department supervisors. We go on call for a week at a time, taking on extra work and getting phone calls at all hours of the day and night for any issue that needs management attention. We do not get any extra pay or other benefits for this, and it’s completely voluntary, so the rest of the teapot designers (other than the two of us who volunteered) have opted out.

    I really thought I was getting some good experience out of being a part of the manager-on-call rotation, and becoming a credible leader. My boss and grand-boss have been giving me increased responsibilities and latitude, and I am becoming the go-to person for many things — similar to OP #2 from this morning. Even when I’m not on call, people (both in and outside my department) seek me out for help often. I am regularly asked to train teapot makers. When I was on call last week, we encountered a major crisis, and I received a lot of praise for how well I handled the crisis. I fully expected that I would be one of the temporary supervisors during the busy season, and many of my coworkers talked as though they assumed that I would be.

    The temporary supervisors were selected this week, and I’m not one of them. One is the other teapot designer who’s in the manager-on-call rotation (who has been at the company longer but has half as much total experience as I do). The other is someone who is a good performer with a lot of knowledge and experience, but has made it clear that he has no interest in management (and opted out of the manager-on-call rotation). I feel like this is a gigantic slap in the face. I think what bothers me the most is that the temporary supervisors get a pay raise while they are filling these roles. I have been putting in all this extra time and effort to be in the manager-on-call rotation for nothing, and now that there’s an opportunity to get some extra pay for extra responsibilities, I get passed over in favor of someone who doesn’t even want it. I just feel like a chump. Plus, the next time a supervisor job opens up, I’ll get rejected again due to lack of management experience. It looks like I am being sent a message that I’m never going to be considered for management, so I don’t know where to go from here.

    1. Colette*

      You’re not actually putting in the effort for nothing – you’re doing it for experience. Have you asked your supervisor what you can do to make yourself a better candidate for temporary supervisor?

      Have you looked at other companies to see what jobs you might be qualified for? Sometimes you have to leave a company to get that kind of promotion.

      1. Disappointed anon*

        Well yes. I was told that being in the manager-on-call rotation would make me a better candidate. The joke was on me.

        My company is the only employer in my industry in the area, so there’s nowhere else to go unless I make a long-distance move or take a huge pay cut to change industries and basically start over in my career.

        1. Colette*

          “Better candidate” doesn’t guarantee you the job, though. Talk with your manager again and ask what you can improve at.

          And management is a different skillset than non-management, so it is possible you can transfer to a different industry.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          No, the joke is not on you. This is because NO experience is ever wasted. Ever. It might take years but all your extra effort here WILL work into something meaningful to you. Maybe not with this employer but you will hit a time in your life where you will say, “thank goodness I took a chance and did all that.”
          No, the joke is absolutely not on you.
          Always remember, that companies buy our time but they do not buy what is in our brains, our creative thinking, our resourcefulness, our ability to take on new things and so on. All this is yours and you get to keep it.
          I get that right now things are not looking good, it doesn’t sound good to me either. So I do get this. Take pride in the fact that you are doing your best and you have your best foot forward at all times. Keep working this way. I know I have been through a few spells where all I have is my own satisfaction that I am playing a fair game.

          As long as your boss is not a totally foolish person, start by talking to her. Tell her what your goals are. Tell her what you have done so far to meet those goals. Oddly, they may think that you do so well with the on-call that they don’t want to lose you. You may end up tearing a page out of your coworker’s book and YOU start saying you are done with the on-call. You might have to force their hand. Maybe that is what your cohort is doing, he is forcing their hand.

          Taking a one in a million long shot here, perhaps you can ask your cohort if he is refusing on-call so he CAN get assigned to this other thing. It’s a long shot guess on my part. Ignore me if this does not make sense with what you see.

          1. Disappointed anon*

            Thanks for the advice, and I suppose that it might still be good experience even if it won’t get me anywhere at this company. The thing is, I have discussed my goals with my boss and that is what led to my going into the manager-on-call rotation. And yet he seems oddly oblivious to the fact that this is such an insult to me. It hasn’t even occurred to him that I would be disappointed about this.

            I don’t think my coworker is strategizing by opting out of the on-call rotation (and the temporary supervisor job does not conflict with the on-call rotation; there is no rotation during the busy season because there’s a supervisor on site 24/7). He is close to retirement age and has openly said that he is happy in his current position and intends to stay where he is until retirement. He hasn’t applied for the teapot maker supervisor position when it’s been open. My other coworker (the one who is also in the rotation) did apply for the supervisor job, so she has been, and is likely to continue to be, my main competition for the job. Most of the teapot makers were assuming that the two of us were going to be the temporary supervisors. The fact that she was promoted to temporary supervisor, and I wasn’t, all but guarantees her the next supervisor job that opens.

    2. Ms.Vader*

      I think your next step should be meeting with your manager and saying something along the lines of “I was disappointed by not being considered for the temporary supervisor position. I felt that i have put in a lot of effort to be considered. I wanted to get some feedback on what I should focus on in the next ‘quarter’ to help me step into this role in the future”. Depending on their answer, perhaps it is time to move on.

      1. Lora*

        Yes, this.

        Although be prepared for a sort of crummy answer that may mean you work for a-holes. Have seen that quite often.

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Yes! By all means, proceed as if your manager is a reasonable person and ask directly about what (else) you need to do or work on to be considered for the temp supervisor position.

          However, just remember that actions speak louder than words. As we see from this site a lot of managers just are not good with clear, constructive feedback. If your manager’s actions are not matching what they tell you (ie: they can’t give you any direct advice/feedback or they do, but they continue to pass you up) when you discuss this with them, you might need to come to terms with the fact it’s not going to happen at this job or company or under this manager (or whoever makes the supervisory hiring decisions). It’s incredibly unfair, but such is life.

          I had a manager who did this. I kept asking what I needed to do to be promoted and eventually gave her multiple outs (told her I understand if I wasn’t the right fit for this type of role or that I’d understand if the answer is simply I need more time in my current role), but she just kept insisting “no, no, no you’re great. We’re going to give you a few projects or light responsibilities to see how things go” and then crickets. Then I’d go back a couple of weeks or a month or two later to followup. Same answer. Repeat for almost a year. It was so frustrating, because I felt like without a no or timeline if I didn’t continue to followup and I didn’t get the promotion, then it would be my “fault” (in my mind), because I let the opportunity pass me by. Finally someone left her team (it was a flex sized team and growing, so I didn’t need to wait for an opening nec. to be promoted, but now that they were down a person they definitely needed to bring someone in). I figured this is it – I’ll go through the formal HR process to apply and at least I’ll get a yes or a no.

          Finally one of my boss’s peers had pity on me and pulled me aside, and basically told me that I could pursue this role and I might be able to strongarm my way in with HR’s support, but that I would be set up to fail. My manager just did not think I was suitable in that type of role. All I could think was why did she actively string me along for so long. Just say no. It just seemed so cruel to straight up lie to my face. I had a lot of anger and bitterness towards that manager for awhile. Boss’s peer actually ended up being a great resource and started giving me some side projects or reading materials. With his advice I was able to be hired into the promotion role at a different company.

          So yeah, learn from my mistake – if everything except your boss’s words says “no” then, believe their actions and start working on next steps as if the manager actually had said no. Definitely do start by going back and talking to them! Hopefully your boss won’t be like my old boss, but just offering some suggestions in the worst case scenario that your boss is like my old boss.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I like your old boss’ peer a LOT. Well done on their part and well done on your part also.

          2. Disappointed anon*

            Wow, that sucks, but it was nice that someone was willing to be honest with you. I keep going over everything in my mind, wondering how I read the situation so wrong, and I still can’t figure it out. The thing that really confuses me is that so many of my coworkers seemed to think the same as I did, that I was going to be one of the temporary supervisors. So it couldn’t have all been in my head, right?

            Maybe it’s because the real story is not something they want to say. I have a pretty good feeling that one of the factors at play is that I don’t have the right look, the right body type, which is something that I’ve had to work really hard to overcome my whole life, and maybe I am fooling myself to think that they are pleased enough with the work I am doing to overlook that. Of course, nobody wants to come right out and say, “You’re too ugly to be a manager,” and maybe it’s even more subconscious than that — they look at me and just don’t see someone who looks like a leader. But geez, why string me along?

            1. ChachkisGalore*

              But that’s the thing! You might not have read the situation wrong – it is possible that your boss just might be totally incapable or unwilling to have this difficult or unpleasant conversation. If that’s the case that would be entirely on them – they’re a manager and they would be failing in at least one of their responsibilities if they are not being straight with you.

              Another possibility is that it could have been a situation that I think Alison brings up fairly often – it’s not that you’re being judged against yourself, you’re being judged against the other candidates (and that will be so variable) so maybe you weren’t lacking, the other two people just happened to edge you out. That would be a bummer, but at least you’d know that it wasn’t you, it was these particular circumstances.

              I’m so sorry you’re going through this! I totally understand how frustrating and demoralizing it is when all you want is basic info and it doesn’t seem like you’re getting it or getting the full picture. You start to doubt yourself and wonder if it’s all in your head. And oh my god, if body type/looks is what is holding you back then your manager/whoever is making the hiring decisions are hideous people (and very poor at their jobs, so I would not take their rejection as a reflection on you).

              Try to hang on to the positive feedback you’ve received and remain confident in your skills (while still being open open to any legitimate constructive feedback :-)). Maybe another direct conversation with your manager will clear some things up – I’m really hoping that it will for you! If it doesn’t, maybe start thinking about what your next steps would be if your boss had just said flat out “nope it’s not happening”. You don’t have to actually start putting wheels in motion, but just think about what you would do.

      2. Aunt Piddy*

        I agree with this. Just ask your manager point blank what else you need to do, and if there were any reasons you weren’t considered for the temporary supervisor position.

    3. LCL*

      Yeah, you got stiffed. Your ‘problem’ was that you did a good job, so now they want to keep you there. Someone who is willing to take on the off hours management and can do it is priceless. That’s you. Unfortunately you may be stuck in that role. That can be the reality of doing shiftwork if your management is unwilling to advocate for the workers or if you don’t have a strong union.

      If you have a good working relationship with your supervisor and management, ask for a meeting. Ask them what the qualifications are for being a temp supervisor. Ask them why someone can be hired to be a temp supervisor if they don’t have any on call experience. Ask them if being an oncall is considered good experience for the temp job. And ask them why temp day supervisors are paid extra but oncalls aren’t. And push hard for all qualified to be included in the oncall rotation. Just based on what you posted, your job doesn’t value their off hours people like they should.

      I think it would be to your advantage to learn about labor rules in the US re on call work. They are complicated. It is sometimes easier to pay some overtime when someone has to be called than to put someone on on call status.

      1. Disappointed anon*

        I am exempt so I’m pretty sure there are no labor laws requiring me to get paid for being on call. This is a pretty common thing in my industry. I don’t think I will get anywhere by asking for changes to the on call situation because they told me from the beginning that it is optional (so if I don’t like it, I can get out). Before I went into the rotation, the manager-on-call would get Friday off the week after being on call — basically a comp day to make up for the extra hours on call — but right after I went into the rotation, we changed to a 4-10s, Monday-Thursday schedule, so we already get Fridays off every week, so that benefit went away before I ever got it.

        Im not sure if it’s even worth discussing with my boss at this point because the decision has been made and they won’t change it, so it’s too late to do anything.

        1. Southern Yankee*

          Nope. Lack of communication never solves the problem. There could be any number of reasons that management made the decision it made, and some them could certainly be logical. Ideally, your manager would discuss it with you, but if they don’t, you absolutely should discuss it with them! While true that “the decision has been made and they won’t change it”, that has nothing to do with what happens in the future. You seem to be in a disappointed headed to resentful place, and don’t seem optimistic about opportunities outside your company. If you stay in the resentful place, it could impact your future a lot more than being passed over one time. If you discuss it with your manager and don’t get a logical or helpful answer, then at least you can make decisions about your future with all the facts.

        2. ginger ale for all*

          Any way that you can ask the people you help during on call to let your boss know if they liked how you did the job? If you can get 5 star ratings from outside of your department, it would help your case, jmo.

          1. Disappointed anon*

            I don’t think it would really go over well to ask for this, but when I was dealing with the crisis last week, I had to interact with a lot of people from other departments, and my boss actually mentioned to me that other managers were impressed with me. Apparently that didn’t help my cause, though.

    4. Red5*

      I think where you go from here should include dusting off your resume and start looking at other jobs. Not because you’re angry or feel like a chump, but it seems you’re getting a message that this may be as far as you go in this company. I would leverage the experience you got being the manager on-call (especially the crisis you solved) as resume fodder to see if you can get a shot at a promotion somewhere different.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      Oh I am so sorry! everything you said sounded so on the spot and the right way to reach your career goal. I think when you are feeling less emotional and down about it, this is a conversation you need to have with your manager. You have to find out where your manager sees your potential and your future.
      The conversation may not lead you to getting that role next time, but it will let you know if and why your manager isn’t considering you for leadership. The answer (or non-answer) may lead you to make a change in company.

    6. AnonAnon*

      What is your career development plan? What are your businesses’ actual career advancement policies? Has anyone provided you with an actual, sit-down mentoring session? Have you asked for one?

      Leaders owe their subordinates an actual plan for advancement and professional growth. Your supervisor should be able to sit down with you and say, “You are at X and you want to be Y. Here is what you need to do to get there.” You need to be able to have concrete, achievable professional development goals. The supervisor might say something like, “In the next six months, your goal is to complete 6 credit hours of Advanced Teapot Development,” or “We are sending you to the Teapot Management Seminar and then you will have six months to manage three subordinate Teapot Designers.” They also need an Order-of-Merit List for when these openings become available. For example, they might say, “You are number three on our list for the next temporary supervisor opportunity.”

      Right now, it sounds like your professional development program is nonexistent, and your career advancement system is sloppy and haphazard. This sort of chaos is exactly what I’d expect from an organization that never bothers to write down plans of action for professional growth and promotion. If your bosses are unwilling or unable to give you the kind of mentorship and guidance you need to advance your career, I’d ask if I need to find a new place to work.

  8. Rintintin*

    My coworker, who sits directly behind me, hums constantly. All day. The same four note tune again and again. Asking her to please stop does not help. I can only listen to music for so long, and often I can hear her through the headphones anyways. I’m asking to move to an empty desk in a different cube next week, but if that doesn’t work, what should I do?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is your co-worker deliberately being a jerk, or does she honestly not realize she’s doing that? Sometimes people have little ticks that they automatically engage in without even noticing it (tapping their feet, making popping noises with their lips, yawning loudly and repeatedly, whistling, etc.). I’d say if it’s the latter, maybe you can problem-solve it together with her. Just let her know you know it’s not something she can necessarily help but then also let her know it’s very difficult for you to concentrate when she does that, and ask her what she thinks would be a good solution. If she says “You should just deal with it,” then you know she’s being deliberately a jerk. Otherwise, maybe you two can work out some kind of… something.

    2. Murphy*

      Can you get noise-canceling headphones and wear those without listening to music? If they’re good headphones, just wearing them could drown her out.

    3. Millenial Lizard Person*

      See above re: Grim Anon and workplace violence… (Just kidding!)

      Maybe a white noise machine / fan for the cube? It sounds like she isn’t interested in stopping the habit.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        It’s weird that she isn’t stopping. It’s totally true that some habits are ingrained, and it may take more repeated reminders than you’d like in order to help her realize she’s doing it, but what you’ve written makes it sound like she isn’t even trying. I would not hesitate to remind someone five or six times a day if this was really the issue that was driving me crazy.

      2. Ishouldbeworkingrightnow*

        I am here to second the white noise/fan and retraining your brain to accept it as background noise. Good Luck.

      3. KillItWithFIRE*

        If you do get a white noise machine/fan, point it directly at her. Childish? Yes. But So is humming in a shared workspace and refusing to modify your behaviour when asked.

        1. Hamburke*

          seriously this and make it the babbling brook type! I had a white noise machine in my kids’ room when they were babies and if I hit the wrong button, we got the insta-gotta-pee babbling brook!

    5. Emily S.*

      I recommend some white noise. Videos are easy to find on YouTube with white noise for audio, and you could either use headphones or speakers.

      My office is across the street from a very loud construction zone, and this helps me a lot.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        I can’t stand listening to music while I work, so I will put on a white noise YouTube video and put my earbuds in.

    6. Bye Academia*

      I’m glad I have my own office, because I do this all the time without realizing. It’s a really hard habit to break. If I were your coworker, I’d want to be reminded each time because I honestly don’t notice that I’m doing it. I would be mortified if my coworker were sitting there stewing about it. Have you asked her to stop once, or do you keep asking every time she starts up again?

      If you can’t move, I’d assume good faith and keep bringing it up each time. Hopefully if you do this long enough she can break the habit. I’m sure you’re not the only person around her annoyed by it.

      If your coworker isn’t open to that and keeps humming, then I’m not sure what else you can do besides a white noise machine or something.

    7. Rintintin*

      Thank you for the replies. To add, this has been a problem for literally decades, apparently, and she has been asked to stop before. On my very first day of work I was told “she hums, she won’t stop, you basically gotta deal.”

      Also, she doesn’t like me, so I feel like if I am the one to ask her to stop, it might add to the animosity.

      I would use noise cancelling headphones but I work in an office where I need to hear my phone ring, or be able to talk quickly and casually with my coworkers – it’s not sustainable for every day.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        That’s absurd. I only realized I hummed when I caught myself and told my officemate “sorry, I just realized I was humming for some reason.” The chair slowly turned and she stared at me for a minute. “You didn’t know that you do that? All the time?” I was able to stop that habit basically immediately out of sheer embarrassment.

        1. valentine*

          Yes. If it’s less annoying to you to say or do something than it is to listen to music, go ahead and knock on the cube wall or IM her a music note (Alt+13) or something.

          Since everyone knows about the humster, maybe mentioning your need to escape will help you give the free cube.

  9. Anon anony*

    I’m in a toxic work place, desperately trying to get out because it is awful. Even the women that I sit by are clique-y to the point where some don’t say “good morning” if I say it, or they say “Hi” to everyone around me *EXCEPT* me.

    Or one woman says, “Good morning, X! How are you?” but I only receive a “Hi Anon!”. (The tone she uses on me is different than the one she uses on them. She is warmer towards them.)

    I don’t want to be best friends, but can’t we all be civil enough to say good morning? Why is it so hard?

    Also, if someone upsets them, then they ALL get upset. One coworker sent a nasty email to a manager because her friend was upset about a new policy. (The friend and manager were going back and forth on an issue. The coworker had to also jump in there too because her friend was upset.)

    It’s this nasty pack mentality and other stuff going on. One-on-one they’re sweet as pie, so I don’t get it. I’m just sick of being in *another* environment like this. It’s awful.

    I just feel like if I had better social skills and confidence I would know how to handle this better and/or not let it affect me so much.

    Has anyone ever been in a situation like this? Can anyone commiserate?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been in toxic work environments, but not that kind. Sounds horrible, though. Unfortunately, the only advice I have is to get out. I’ve never been in a toxic environment that just magically got better on its own.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      The people at my old job were just like that to me, and it was SO frustrating. What was most confusing was after months of them acting like this, they all expected wedding invitations and were shocked when they didn’t get one. Best advice is to keep your head down and focus on friendships outside of work, but also getting out greatly helped!

    3. Colette*

      Can you try to find it funny rather than mean? I mean, how sad does your life have to be to refuse to say hello to someone you see every day? That’s champion levels of petty right there.

      But also, this is about them, not you. It is not your fault, and you can’t change them. So if it bothers you to not have them reply when you greet them, stop greeting them. Deal with them when you need to for work, but otherwise just pretend they’re not there.

      1. Boop*

        Seconded. My general philosophy is “don’t poke the beast.” Interact when you have to, be polite and nice, but shrug it off or walk away if they ignore you or make nasty comments. It makes them look bad, not you, and everyone else in your office/department will totally know this.

    4. Leela*

      I was in a situation where I said good morning to a coworker who came in with headphones on and she didn’t respond, I assumed she didn’t hear me with the headphones so I waited until she came back from the kitchen without them and said it again, to which she said “um. you already said good morning to me.” and walked to her computer.

      I also worked at a place with someone who got really outwardly upset that I’d asked her to keep it down talking to her neighbor when I was on the phone with an important candidate and couldn’t hear them. She started doing things like (imagine it’s me, Cersei is the upset coworker, and Sarah is our awesome coworker) getting up to leave for the day, I can see that she’s staring at me so I turn to look and she smirks and goes “BYE SARAH.” while staring at me and then walks out, thinking she really stuck it to me. Sarah looks at me sympathetically because she was also there for the incident and knows it’s a direct response to her being upset.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Oh good grief. This is how the mean girl in my kid’s fourth grade class acts.

        And we consider her immature for her age.

      2. Headshrinker Extraordinaire*

        That’s so ridiculous. I’m impressed you were able to keep a straight face. I probably would have burst out laughing after one or two of those “snubs”.

      3. Camellia*

        I’d be inclined to say “MY NAME’S NOT SARAH” just to see what she would do.

        After that I would just pretend to be so involved in my work when it’s ‘that time’ that, gosh golly gee I wouldn’t notice that she was staring at me and therefore would not turn to look at her.

    5. Hello.*

      Been there done that. My last job I was sent to another department to help out for 2 months and hadn’t seen my boss and coworker during that time. On my first day back, they said 7 words to me throughout the entire day. Hi (x2), “Bless You”, and “I’m heading out”.

      The fact is that some people just don’t realize that they aren’t in high school anymore and there isn’t much you can do about it. Just start looking elsewhere.

    6. sunshyne84*

      I’ve dealt with this at my job. I was apart of a different department than the people I sat with so I didn’t bother speaking anymore unless spoken to, but fortunately another desk became available on the other side of the building! Is there possibly another area you can sit?

    7. LabLady*

      I’m currently working in a similar environment. Where I’m at, we’re divided by a building, and the women in the front office are very cliquey. I had to work up there for two months and they would frequently get lunch/ Starbucks runs and ask everyone in the office except for me if they wanted anything.

      It really makes you want to retaliate, but really, what would it do?

    8. Rainy days*

      I’m so sorry. This sucks. It doesn’t take social skills to say hello to people.

      My office used to have a bit of this dynamic. My boss would take us on work retreats where she’d be like “How can we bond as a team?” and I would always say in front of the group, “I think it will help our team dynamic if everyone greets everyone else. I don’t think we need to bond if we can’t get that done.”

      But ultimately the only thing that helped was that the two most cliquey people left. The good thing was that since they were co-dependent, when one left the other followed. The people who replaced them are quite pleasant.

    9. Nervous Accountant*

      I’m sorry, that really sucks. I was in this same situation a few years back when I was new at my company. It was a lot smaller, about 20 or so people. Eventually all the toxic people left, so it’s changed. Then recently, a few people I’d gotten along with earlier were suddenly being jerks..individually, they were great, but together they weren’t. That also stopped eventually.

      What helped me cope and get past it is knowing it’s about them and not myself. I’m also satisfied knowing that I did my best and there’s nothing wrong with me, if someone is a jerk, that’s on them.

      Leaving is also an option. I opted not to, and I made a conscious decision to stay here so I don’t regret it. Maybe once you are closer to leaving, you will be able to look back on them and smirk and laugh.

    10. Joielle*

      This reminds me of one of my husband’s coworkers! Apparently the other day when he got to work, she was already at her desk, wearing earbuds and rummaging through some papers. She didn’t look up when he walked in and he didn’t want to surprise or interrupt her, so he didn’t say anything and went over to his desk. A little while later, she came up to him and snottily told him how rude it was that he hadn’t said good morning to her.

      He did have to (politely) correct a couple of her mistakes the day before, though, so I can only assume that’s where it was coming from. Some people are just tall children!

    11. Aggretsuko*

      Yes, the people I used to have to share an office with despised me and we did not speak unless we absolutely had to for work. It was a joy. All you can do is ignore them right back.

    12. JediSquirrel*

      It’s not about you.

      These people are jerks. They are also immature. It’s not your job to make them better people. Sure, they’re nice one-on-one, but I suspect that’s because they don’t have their toadies backing them up.

      As a veteran of toxic work environments, you really only have two choices:

      One, keep your head down, do the great job you’ve been doing, get your paycheck, and don’t take this home with you.

      Two, get out.

      I have opted for choice two most of the time; once or twice in the past, I went with option one because my commitment was for a limited amount of time (think basic training). The choice is up to you, but you know their true nature, you know it’s not your responsibility to manage it, and these kinds of situations almost always lead to passive-aggressive behavior on your part.

      1. JediSquirrel*

        Really, I meant “passive-aggressive behavior on my part”, because being snarky and ironic is one of my primary coping mechanisms. YMMV, of course.

  10. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

    Am I off base for thinking this was annoying? I’ve been in the same very large org for a long time now, had a couple different positions, have applied a lot internally, had some interviews. Every time I apply, I use my outside e-mail, not my work e-mail. But a few months ago, I got contacted about an interview for a job applied to, and it was sent only to my work e-mail and not my outside e-mail. Now, I’m not the only person in the org with my exact name, so it would have taken them some sleuthing to figure out which one I am (sleuthing they wouldn’t have to do, since my application included an e-mail address for me!). We went back and forth a few times, I had an interview, and didn’t end up getting the job, no big deal.

    But it still bugs me a little that they contacted me entirely through my work e-mail and not the one I gave them. Am I off base? I try to keep job search stuff not only separate, but all in the same place so I have it for reference. I had to keep forwarding things to myself. I don’t have access to my work e-mail outside of the VPN, whereas I have access to my outside e-mail all the time; by sending things only to my work e-mail, I could only reply while at work.

    Also, quite frankly, my work e-mail is sometimes visible to other people, especially when I share my screen on conference calls. Anyone could have seen those e-mails show up, and while my org is very good about people moving around internally and don’t hold it against you, I don’t necessarily want my boss to see every detail of my job search, you know?

    1. anna green*

      No, that’s totally weird. Why would they waste time searching out a different email address? Probably better you didn’t go to work there.

      Also, always close your email if you are sharing your screen!

      1. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

        I turn off the outlook pop-up with new e-mails when I’m presenting on really big conference calls, but on internal ones or project calls, I’ve gotten out of the habit. I should get back into it, although there are lots of times when they want me to dig up an e-mail or check my availability on my calendar for another meeting and so that wouldn’t be a perfect fix.

    2. Ann*

      I think you’re off base. When you apply internally, you should use your internal email, and expect people to communicate with you about the job internally. Also, there’s never a guarantee when you apply for an internal role that your manager won’t be notified anyway.

      1. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

        They aren’t allowed to notify managers without permission, and they recommend never using your work e-mail on the job site, because then if you leave the org and want to reapply, you won’t be able to get your password mailed to you.

        1. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

          Oh, for clarification, there’s no specific internal jobs site. All jobs are posted publicly on the internet. Some of them are listed as only internal people can apply, but everyone in the world can see those postings.

    3. Murphy*

      That’s weird. I like to keep that stuff separate as well so I wouldn’t like it if someone did that to me.

    4. Overeducated*

      If it’s an internal position I’m not actually sure that’s so bad…might be part of their standard procedure for considering internal candidates, which is likely to be a little more transparent to your manager in the long run than a totally external process.

    5. Colette*

      Generally, I’d use my work email when applying internally. It’s a different situation than applying outside the company. And if you are afraid about someone seeing something pop up when you’re sharing your screen, take action to stop that (i.e. share your second monitor if you have one, close your email program, turn off notifications).

    6. Semaj*

      Try not to be so bothered by it, I don’t think it means anything. I do hiring in my department within a University, and University-internal applicants typically use their work email address. It doesn’t matter to us either way.

      For a department-internal employee it would be especially understandable that whoever is doing the recruitment starts to type your name into their email and it auto-suggests your work email.

    7. Psyche*

      It seems a little weird but not a horrible violation. Forward the emails to yourself and reply from your preferred email. If it really bothers you, tell them you would prefer to use the other email address so that you can access it at home.

  11. FaintlyMacabre*

    I put in my two weeks notice and in both conversations with my boss and my coworker/relative they said, “You’re killing me.”

    This is so frustrating! It is completely and utterly not my fault that they don’t have extra coverage for the position, and it is especially not my fault that they’re trying to hire someone for the position at the same rate from several years ago. Fun fact- it was an insulting wage back then. Now people are less desperate AND my state’s minimum wage has been raised, making their not great salary that much more pitiful. Aaargh.

    On the plus side, despite my automatic guilt reflex, all the chaos and tooth gnashing does not make feel like I made a mistake in moving on.

    1. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

      I put in my two weeks notice and in both conversations with my boss and my coworker/relative they said, “You’re killing me.”

      If you can with your coworker/relative (don’t know about with your boss), can you try reframing it as “the boss/company is actually the one killing you”? The onus isn’t on you to provide coverage or arrange anything, it’s on management.

      1. valentine*

        If you’re the one who’s been trying to get away from this person and managed to job search and interview despite sharing a computer with the albatross, bravx!

        I would amuse myself by saying:
        ~Oh, my goodness!
        ~It’s a jolly holiday with Mary.
        ~The sun’ll come out tomorrow.

        You can’t laugh in their faces, yet, but you can breathe easier now you taste sweet freedom.

    2. neverjaunty*

      “You’re killing me” – no, seems like y’all are killing yourselves pretty good without my help.

      Recognize the guilt reflex for what it is; a reflex (the desire to be kind to others) triggered by pressure.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Nope, not your problem.

      My boss at Long-Ago Job tried that on me. Sorry, man, you own this business. It’s on you to hire and train people, and to make sure the rest of us are happy enough to stay. Maybe you should have given me that raise you promised and then reneged, after all.

    4. manuka honey*

      I totally understand the initial jerk reaction to feeling guilty especially if a large part of your identity is being a good worker/hard working person! Regardless, you owe them nothing and congratulations on the new job! :)

    5. Bunny Girl*

      I hate this. I had a manager who tried this with me because I quit on the spot when we had two major security issues two days in a row. He was complaining that he didn’t have enough coverage. I told him it was because the wages he paid were insulting for having to deal with people who were basically wild animals, and that if he would warn people during the interview process, then maybe he would get more prepared employees.

    6. Wulfgar*

      I’m my own boss in a service position, and I don’t have backup if I need time off. I was upfront with my clients about that when they hired me. Inevitably I’m asked what they’re supposed to do when my vacation conflicts with a date that they need me. You’ve been my client for six years and never looked into another company? That’s on you, not me.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Tell them they killed you a while ago.

      I “love” how folks like this never, ever consider their contribution to the problems.

    9. BeenThere*

      Agh, I’ve had that happen to me once, it sucked. During my exit interview, I tried to explain that I was moving on because the job didn’t have a lot of intellectual stimulation or social interaction, and the new position I found had plenty of both…

      But instead of listening, my manager tried to make my resignation about how I was leaving them in a hard position because a couple other people had also resigned recently, and how I was leaving because I was too lazy and entitled to fix the issues that had been identified in my performance review.

      I wanted to bite him. First, I did fix those issues (in less than a month even), but no one was going to know until my next performance review because no one bothered to look at my work the rest of the time. Second, the place was chronically understaffed because of a rather high turnover rate; they would have been in a hard position no matter when I left.

      Places with high turnover should seriously look at themselves and ask if they haven’t designed the kind of job/environment that makes people want to peace out… that job had been designed to be as boring and repetitive as could be and there was basically no feedback ever. No wonder people get in there and immediately want to leave.

  12. Awkward anon*

    I work in a toxic, dysfunctional workplace but there are a lot of people dating each other, having affairs. I was hit on by this young guy in front of my boss when I just started. (Unprofessional and um, no thank you!) He’s dating his boss now. It’s like bad reality tv. I’ve never seen anything like it. Can anyone relate?

      1. Awkward anon*

        True, but I don’t know if I’m overreacting or if it is wrong. (No one else at work seems to care!)

        2. Annie Moose*

          It’s definitely wrong! Boss-subordinate relationships are a HUGE no-no, and most people do not consider affairs moral. You aren’t overreacting by finding this bizarre and uncomfortable!

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      At my last job, during like my second week, I went for a coffee break with my team. Someone said “Isn’t it funny how there are three couples standing in this room?” There were nine of us. Six of them were married. It felt very incestuous and explained all the dysfunction I encountered over the next few months. I wish there was a tactful way to ask “So how many couples are on the team?” in interviews.

        1. Bunny Girl*

          And anything entertainment related. I worked in a haunted attraction for years and holy crap I would never take a black light in there.

    4. Lora*

      Had a job like this for exactly one year. When I came in, they swore up and down that they were putting an end to the shenanigans and indeed, they had fired a whole bunch of people to show this was serious business. The time I was there, was one looooong year of sexual harassment from married colleagues where I was punished for, apparently, holding my liquor and politely turning down dudes who spent each and every “team building exercise” grabbing at every woman within 10 feet of their bar stool. This evidently made me Not A Team Player.

      From what I hear, it hasn’t really changed since before I was hired and half the married guys there have Tinder profiles. It gives me no end of joy to see their direct competitors succeeding amazingly, growing their partnerships and their stock skyrocketing, while the Duck Company fails miserably, year after year. They’re good at selling their business to investors, but that won’t last the longer they fail to make a product.

    5. Mashed potato*

      I work in a small teapot lab company of less than 50 people in this building and I found out she got this job from meetings one of the founder on dating app and now dating another guy at work, and another girl is dating the manager. The first girl also seems to be the office gossiper / don’t tell her anything you don’t want everyone to know

      There’s other issues I have but it’s kinda toxic and dysfunctional

    6. Red5*

      Yup, can relate. Our HR director was dating (and living with) one of her direct reports. It was an open secret forever before leadership moved the report to another team. I wish this was the only story I had.

    7. Karen from Finance*

      It’s not quite AS bad here, but there are a bunch of couples and ex-couples. And there have been a lot of drunken hookups during office parties, before my time. There’s a lot of people who are married or in relationships outside the organization, but everybody seems to flirt with everybody in here. It’s getting hard to get use to and I’m not really sure that I should.

      I just came back from getting a cup of coffee, where I was surrounded by 2 guys who started to sing at me every song that they could think of that had my name in it (not Karen). It was weird but very much the kind of thing people get up to here.

    8. Hold My Cosmo*

      Can relate. Parents and kids work here, husband and wives, exes are everywhere, dating is rampant. The first thing anyone asks a summer intern is “Who are you related to?” The family tree of this company is a wreath.

    9. HR Anon*

      Yep, worked somewhere where we had pools about which babies were conceived on property…(not from the married couples either).

      1. goose goose goose duck*

        I misread this, and just saw “pools … babies conceived on property”, and I thought about the swimming pools/hot tubs at the “Intern apartment complex” that a company I used to work for runs. Apparently, at one point, that complex was on a list of “best places to get laid” published by a certain adult magazine.

    10. Juneybug*

      Oh, that sucks. But have you thought about writing a book (changing the details to protect the not so innocent)? With all of the actions (no pun intended) going around there, this book will write itself.

  13. Pinky Pie*

    Crazy thing happened on the job hunt… I got a ‘thanks but no thanks’ email followed by a email from the recruiter letting me know this is an error and I’m under consideration. Job hasn’t closed yet.

    2. fposte*

      It happens. Autofill grabbed Tangerina A’s email when they wanted to reject Tangerina C, that kind of thing. And people do get rejected before the job technically closes.

    3. SaaSyPaaS*

      It was probably a mistake. At one job I had, I had been there for about two weeks when I got a rejection email saying they had decided to go with another candidate. I was like, “But I’m already here…?” It turned out that it was an automatically generated email. We had a good (awkward) laugh about it.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, I’m pretty sure I auto-rejected everyone in a pool one time, before reviewing anything! Oops.

      Good luck!

    5. Garland not Andrews*

      I can see this as being a “Oh crap! Oh crap! Oh crap! How do I get that back? AARRRGGGHHH!!!” moment for the recruiter.

    6. Andrea*

      I got a rejection for a job, a month after I started doing the job. :) Sometimes the recruiter hits the wrong button.

  14. Jack Be Nimble*

    I’m supposed to work 9-5, but I typically get in between 8:30 and 8:45 and leave promptly at five, since I take the bus and it gets less and less reliable after that. My boss keeps commenting on how late one of my coworkers stays and recently said “it must be nice to leave while the sun is still up!” to me as I was packing up my things.

    I get good reviews, and she hasn’t said anything about my hours during our one-on-ones. Should I bring this up proactively, (“Clementia, you’ve commented as I’m preparing to leave several times, would you like me to adjust my times?”) or just ignore it until she says something more direct?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think I’d bring it up as “Are you unhappy with my work? Are there things you want me to get done that I’m not getting done?” instead of “Would you like me to adjust my times?” But, yeah, I think a lot of managers who value face time over actual work getting done or over the quality of work getting done tend to favor people who come in later and stay later over people who come in earlier and leave earlier.

    2. Colette*

      “Clementia, you’ve commented on my hours a few times. As you know, I get in between 8:30 and 8:45, but I have to leave directly at 5 to catch my bus. Is that causing problems?”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        This is good. I actually wonder whether you’ve been explicit about the need to catch the bus or not. One time I had a really long commute (1 hour and 45 minutes each way), and I had a very specific commuter rail to catch to get home. If I didn’t get that one, the next train was 40 minutes later. So I told my boss specifically that I’d be leaving exactly five minutes after the work day was done to catch that train, and my boss was fine with it. Not that yours would necessarily be fine with it, but sometimes it’s good to be explicit about “I’m leaving for this logistical reason and not because I hate my job and can’t wait to get out of here.”

        1. Jack Be Nimble*

          That’s a really good point! I definitely need to make sure that we’re on the same page about why I leave when I do!

          1. valentine*

            Don’t offer to adjust your hours unless you really want to surrender them. In time, she wouldn’t remember it was a sacrifice for you and might come up with something else to gripe about.

    3. Armchair Analyst*

      I think a direct conversation is good, and also acknowledging the reality: “I am leaving now to catch my bus because it’s not reliable after this time.”

      Today I dropped my son off at our school carpool meetup place and… I was in my nightshirt and jeans. I was not very embarrassed and neither was the dad driver but he did say, “Oh I kind of wish I had the sort of lifestyle where I could head back home to get ready.” I jokingly reminded him that I am heading back home to help my husband get two preschoolers ready and we could really use the help, did he want to help us? He said no.

      I think people just see your life through their own narrow viewpoint. You’re probably fine but a direct conversation or reminder is ok.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I was not very embarrassed and neither was the dad driver but he did say, “Oh I kind of wish I had the sort of lifestyle where I could head back home to get ready.”

        Slight tangent: I really hate when people say things like “It must be nice” or “I wish I had that lifestyle,” when they really have no idea how it is for you.

        1. Moonbeam Malone*

          Oh gosh, yes. When I was struggling to find full time work and stuck part-time with a really toxic living situation (because I couldn’t afford to move!) a coworker said to me, re: being a part-timer, “enjoy it while you can!” I was not enjoying it! At all! Keep your opinions to yourself, buddy!

        2. Parenthetically*

          I sometimes say TO MYSELF, “Ah well, must be nice to be rich” when one of my better-off friends goes on a fancy vacation or something (when we haven’t had so much as a weekend away in going on two years), just as a kind of “que sera sera” thing, but I would never dream of saying it TO someone.

          I also think a good response to that is a cheery, breezy, “Yeah, it really is, thank you! Every life has its ups and downs and this is one of the ups” or something similar.

          1. Armchair Analyst*

            I made up a story in my head where all the rich people got their money from beloved relatives who died and left it in their will. That way, in my head, The Rich People are sad about losing their beloved relative. It helps me have empathy for people jetting off from their private helipad to their private yacht.

            In this story, I’m not sure where The Rich People’s dead relatives got their money. I haven’t thought that through yet.

            2. Parenthetically*

              Way back in the mists of time, the ancestress of the Rich People made her money on… I dunno, a profitable but fair, community based housing initiative. Or was Madam C.J. Walker. Or something heartwarming. ;)

        3. Jack Be Nimble*

          More than seconded! I don’t think anyone’s ever said “it must be nice” and meant it in a friendly way.

        4. BeenThere*

          That sort of comment really needs to disappear. I was talking with a coworker last week about the average number of steps we take everyday because she got a FitBit. I told her I had no idea how many I took but that I walked on average about 1h everyday.

          “Must be nice to have so much time for exercise!” she commented, not knowing that the reason I walk so much is because my commute to work is about 1h15 and I need to drag myself between the several different bus and metro lines I take. I was more than a little miffed that she assumed it was “nice” – especially since that day I had missed one of my buses and had had to walk an extra 15 minutes during a snowstorm.

        5. Hamburke*

          I used to work from home with OldJob. I’d walk my kids to the bus stop in gym clothes, walk to the gym, workout and be home in time to shower and start work. That kind of lifestyle is great and I worked really hard to find a flexible job where I could do that. I said to way too many people, “You could too – if you can’t do it with your current job, look for another job where it’s possible.”

          I could actually do that with my current job too – most days (I cover phones once a week) – but I like putting in face time with my boss.

        6. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

          I hate when people say “must be nice” too. It’s incredibly rude to say that. I agree that nobody says that in a nice way. There are good comebacks for when someone says that, but it’s probably best to just take the high road (with your boss or with anyone, really). You’ll still have what you have and Ms. or Mr. Must Be Nice will still be miserable being themselves. I like the advice about asking your boss if she is dissatisfied with your work, and also explaining that you leave right on time to catch the bus. But yes, “must be nice” is very rude.

    4. Annie Moose*

      Have you ever said something in the moment? e.g. “well, that’s why I come in early!” or “gotta catch my bus!” or something like that. If she hasn’t mentioned your hours as a problem, I wonder if she just meant it as a little joke and hasn’t realized how frequently she’s mentioned your coworker.

      But yeah, if it’s bothering you and your boss is otherwise reasonable, it wouldn’t hurt to bring it up. That way you both know you’re on the same page about your schedule.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        I think part of it is her personality! She loves to chat, and I don’t think she thinks very much about what she says. She almost definitely doesn’t realize how often she’s commenting on my coworker’s late hours or my promptly-at-five departures.

    5. Utoh!*

      Like someone else mentioned, you should confirm that your supervisor knows your schedule and why you need to leave at 5. Hopefully that will cut down (or out) the comments. I would find that extremely annoying and would want to nip it in the bud instead of waiting for her to say something (and actually she’s already said something, albeit in a passive-aggressive, offhand way as opposed to directly).

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Have the conversation but don’t offer to adjust your times. Make it clear you take public transportation and there is a reliability issue after certain times. Make it clear that IF you are needed (and I mean really needed not just a “well it would be nice if you stayed a little later here and there”) you will obviously stay later to make sure the work gets done but in general you need to leave by X time to make the bus.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A thought — is it possible she just means it’s really nice that the days are getting longer?

    8. Jack Be Nimble*

      Thanks, all!

      You’re right, it’s not helpful to ignore her comments just because I’m frustrated with the way she’s phrasing them. Current game plan is to tell her about the constraints on my commute during my next one-to-one (I’ve mentioned it in passing, but it will be helpful to get it on the record!) and go from there. If she comments again as I’m leaving, I’ll definitely try to use Annie Moose’s script and say something like “yup, gotta catch my bus!”

      Part of the solution will also be for me to get over it–in a previous job, I had a manager who expected everyone to stay until 7, no matter when you got in. I got in before 8 most mornings, and got a lot of snide comments when I left at 4:30. I’m defensive because of that, so I just need to remember that this is a different office and a different manager!

    9. Eccentric Smurf*

      Just out of curiosity, is she saying that where the other coworker can hear? I had a boss once who would do things like that to encourage other people to change something. I.e. if you got your work done in a timely manner OtherCoworker, you could go home while the sun is up like Jack. Wouldn’t that be great?

      (Yes, I realize this is a terrible way to communicate, but I have seen it quite a bit. )

  15. Lumos*

    I have a payroll question. I’m an accountant with a small firm and it’s tax season. I do my own taxes through the firm, my supervisor checks them for accuracy, signs off on them and then they’re submitted through the firm. I’m hourly non-exempt, and I thought that I would be paid for that time. My supervisor isn’t sure. I looked up an FLSA fact sheet and I guess I could see an argument for both sides, but I’m really not sure.

        2. pandq*

          That is most likely a cost the firm is probably paying to e-file your return through the outside software vendor. It sounds like you are not paying for the checking for accuracy? I don’t think my old firm would have paid for your time for preparation of your own return.

        3. MoopySwarpet*

          I guess to clarify . . . are you paying the same fee an outside person would pay to have you prepare your taxes? Or is it just a fee to cover the actual out of pocket cost of submission.

          If you are paying for labor and then are actually DOING the labor, you should get paid. If you’re paying a nominal fee for the software and your supervisor’s time, you shouldn’t necessarily be paid.

          Although, I think it depends on the amount of hours and rate of pay you’re talking about. If it’s pretty minimal (an hour or two), I’d probably just pay you if I were your boss.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Are you paying the company to do your taxes? In that case, yes you should be paid for your time.

      Is this a benefit of your employment there? Also paid for your time.

      Is this just a way to consolidate your time i.e. you’re doing taxes so you throw yours on the pile? Maybe not.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Is having the firm do your taxes a benefit they offer? If so, I think that time would be paid. If not, no.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m flinching at doing your taxes through them, you’re an accountant, it’s so unnecessary IMO.

      If you’re being required to do them thorough their service, it’s paid time. If you’re not required and it’s a perk, you’re not doing it on paid time. It’s about the requirements set forth by your employer and if it’s seen as work or not.

      I still am really uncomfortable with using a firm for personal returns unless you’ve got some complex income or write offs…

    5. WellRed*

      I don’t know. I am a writer, but at work I am paid to write for the company, not my personal stories.

    6. Mobuy*

      How long will it take? A couple of hours or less? They should just let you do it on the clock as a perq. Half a day or more? A little iffier.

  16. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

    I need a good reminder app for my Windows computer. I do NOT want a phone app, just something that will pop up reminders when I am at my computer and can handle recurring reminders on, say, the 15th of the month. Windows has a “remind me” one but it won’t pop up and can’t do recurring reminders like that.

      1. Lucy*

        I use Google for private life and Outlook for work. I prefer Outlook.

        Outlook tasks are very flexible – they can recur daily/weekly/monthly/yearly (choose particular weekdays, or “second Thursday of the month”, or to generate the item for a certain period after you complete it) – and the associated reminders are also customisable. I run tasks with actual due dates but then reminders a suitable distance out, if necessary. The whole set functions as a to-do list marked for importance and urgency, and each item can have attachments and text associated – e.g. paying a bill could have a scan of the bill attached, and a hyperlink to the payment site in the text.

        I find Google less flexible EXCEPT THAT the notifications are more useful to me as I run Google on my smartphone so the notifications pop up in my hand/on my hip, and they’re easier to share (eg with my spouse when relating to our children).

    2. Murphy*

      I have an extension for Chrome called Cool Clock. You can set alarms through that, which might get the job done.

    3. rocklobsterbot*

      do you use outlook? you can set up regular meetings at various intervals and use the meeting reminders?

    4. Annie Moose*

      What version of Windows are you running? Windows 10 has the Calendar app, although I haven’t used it and can’t comment on how well it works. It can sync with Outlook/Google calendars, as far as I know, and can pop up in your Windows notifications.

    6. epi*

      If you have Windows 8 or 10, there are multiple ways to do this. Both versions of Windows have a built-in assistant app called Cortana. You can create reminders within the app at your desktop.

      Windows 10 and I believe Windows 8 also have built-in email and calendar apps. You could sync an account to those and use them to serve you reminders while you’re at that computer. You could also decline to sync them to anything, and use the calendar app just for reminders you want to pop up while you are using that machine.

      It is possible to use the Task Scheduler to create popup reminders for yourself in Windows 7. I won’t link right now so this won’t be caught in moderation, but if you Google “Windows 7 reminders”, an article on it is one of the first results.

    7. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Outlook reminders. They keep my entire schedule on track at work. You can set recurring reminders and you can also tell it how early to remind you of an upcoming event.

  17. seller of teapots*

    Just passed 9 months pregnant over here! Any advice on making it through the final weeks while working?

    During my last pregnancy 2 years ago, I worked from home full time, so it was a lot easier on me physically. I’m just finding myself exhausted these days, and my motivation/focus is slipping.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Hopefully you are winding down at work and preparing for your leave … I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect yourself to go at 100% when there is a nine month old inside you, and I’m not sure anybody else would expect you to either. Is this an opportunity to prioritize the few most important things you need to get clear of your desk, maybe?

      1. seller of teapots*

        Truthfully, I don’t know that anyone is expecting me to operate at 100% aside from myself! This is a good reminder that it’s okay to prioritize and take it a bit easy. I’m in my first year as a manager, so I think I feel an extra layer of guilt that I’m letting my team down.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I guess just thinking if you’re about to be unavailable, it is actually a good sign if you don’t have a whole ton of urgent things in your waning days that need you badly. That should be natural because you’ve handed stuff off successfully / empowered your team, and is a good sign for how well they will be able to cope once you’re on leave!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t know if this is an option for you, but in my last weeks, I took every Wednesday off.

      1. seller of teapots*

        I don’t quite have the time off for that (well, technically I do, but I want to save it for a summer staycation), but I have started wfh every Wednesday and that has really helped. Next week I think I might add Tuesday as well, actually.

      2. seller of teapots*

        You know, I’ve started WFH every Wednesday and that has been a godsend. Maybe next week I’ll add Tuesday, actually.

    3. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      I found baby #2 and #3 WAY different at the end. With #1 I was all chipper-nesting-manic. I was super-productive at work and astounded my coworkers with my energy.

      #2 I felt just as you do. To be honest, I drank a crapton of coffee to stay awake those last few weeks. Of course, not everyone indulges in caffeine (and me only at the end there), but… it helped. I also got up regularly for short walks and made sure I ate small amounts throughout the day. I was on the borderline for gestational diabetes for the last two kids, so my blood sugar and activity had a direct impact on my energy levels.

      #3 I gave up trying I worked from home exclusively. It was end of August, during Phx monsoon season, and I was the size of a sweaty house. At that point, I just rolled with it. Very, very slow rolling.

      1. seller of teapots*

        This is so encouraging! Which sounds strange, because you’re talking about being exhausted and uncomfortable, but…pregnancy! Reminds me to go make another cup of tea, in fact.

        The short walks is a good call! I definitely could do a bit more of that to keep my energy levels up.

      2. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

        I guess it didn’t really answer your question, I apologize. My advice would be to you to take it as it comes. Every pregnancy is different and you just have to roll with what your body gives you. Try a couple of different things and see if they work for you. Take frequent breaks that aren’t to the bathroom, eat small amounts throughout the day, and focus on clearing your desk off.

        For all three, the First-trimester fatigue was terrible. I would sleep under my desk during my lunch hour. Is there a quiet place you can do that? An un-used conference room or nursing room?

        1. seller of teapots*

          Haha, oh man the fatigue lasted well into my second trimester this time! (Last pregnancy I was that obnoxious lady who loved being pregnant, haha)

          Trusting your body and honoring what it needs…what a novel concept! Haha, feels like good intention to channel before labor, too.

          And thank you, I do feel like both of your comments were really helpful and answered my question!

          1. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

            Lol! That was #3 for me. AND I puked the whole time. Not nausea, just random, without warning blowouts. My boss thought it was hilarious. Me, not so much.

            But hey, I LOST 20# that pregnancy, and the giant baby I produced is pretty cute now.

            Anyway, before I get any further off topic, give yourself a break. You’re doing fine.

    4. WellRed*

      My boss worked at home the last couple of weeks. She was too uncomfortable, physically, to drive in and she lived in mortal fear of going into labor in the office ; )

    5. TXAdmin*

      I can SOOO relate to this. I’m almost 37 weeks and I’m just OVER IT. I’m an admin, so my work isn’t physically demanding, but the chair has become uncomfortable, all clothes are uncomfortable and generally being expected to be friendly and chipper is really wearing me down. My job doesn’t offer any work from home options, so I’m stuck in the suffering. I also work in a very male-dominated field and office, so even though they almost all have wives and children, none of them truly know how uncomfortable life is at the moment.

      1. seller of teapots*

        Regarding clothes: I am currently wearing a men’s XL tshirt to work. It’s masked under a big scarf and a sweater, but we’ve reached that point. I also wore this same tshirt to bed. Ha!

        I think you’re right; having to be *on* is, I think, especially draining at this stage. Good luck, mama!

    6. Katie*

      I just did a lot of small, easily accomplished projects that didn’t require a lot of brain power to complete – hey you won’t know if you’ll be there tomorrow to finish it! Now’s a good time to organize your email inbox/backlog, clean and organize your desk files, make sure your contact list/away message/task list is ready for your boss etc. I don’t know what kind of work you’re in, but if you have the opportunity to take several small breaks, I took a lot of short walks towards the end.

    7. Lady Kelvin*

      I hear you on the lack of focus! I’m now a week past (they’re inducing on Monday if kiddo doesn’t show up this weekend) and I am exhausted. I’ve been working from home every Wednesday and also just allowing myself to not be productive. I made a list of “have to do, should do, want to dos” and started on the have to dos and worked my way through the list so that I could get everything I needed to done and if I missed stuff it wasn’t as important. Since I’ve been here two weeks longer than planned, I’ve finished all my list and more. For me, coming to work has kept me sane vs sitting at home and waiting. But mostly, nobody else expects you to be at 100% so give yourself permission to not be at 100%. It just makes you stressed out and that’s not good for you or baby.

    8. iglwif*

      I mean, presumably you are in the winding-things-up-and-handing-off-to-your-replacement stage now? (I hope so!!) Probably nobody except you is expecting you to be firing on all cylinders and most of your co-workers are doing in their heads what all of mine kept doing out loud in my last few weeks at work, which is asking, “Is she STILL HERE??” So my advice would be to really relax your expectations of yourself, do what you can do, and try not to stress about what you can’t get to. (And try not to kill people who insist on asking you if you’re still there when they can plainly see you sitting right in front of them.)

      I had a summer baby and no A/C at home, so my usual advice also includes “enjoy the office A/C while you still can”, but if you’re in the Northern Hemisphere that presumably doesn’t apply to you ;)

      Congrats on the impending new arrival! :D

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My voice of experience is to have your projects ready to turn over every day when you go home…my daughter decided to come early!

      1. Ooh, Baby Baby!*

        I second Seeking Second Childhood. My first came at 35 weeks- days after a product launch when I had so much left to do! Second child waited until 40 weeks and I was dying-I had finished everything by 37 weeks since I thought I’d go early again! Take it easy, waddle freely and prioritize what needs to get done. Ignore any comments about how tired you look! Good luck!!

    10. CaptainLaura*

      At my workplace, parking and walking is a big event due to the size of the facility. My doctor ok’d a 2 month temporary disabled parking pass at the end of my pregnancy so I could park closer to the door. It also saved a ton of time when leaving for appointments.

      I ended up getting clearance to go out on disability at 37w4d. My baby made an unexpected, splashy entrance two days later.

  18. Scott M.*

    How do others handle working for a company that gets bad press? I work for a utility company. From inside, I know that the company is well run and the employees and executives care about the customers. But new stories are invariably negative. Whether it is a story about higher bills, or an accident involving the product we deliver, or a billing mistake from an I.T. vendor, we are invariably painted as an evil greedy corporation.
    It gotten so that I hate opening the paper anymore. And this is coming from a person who actually subscribes to a real newspaper, and reads it every day.
    Am I just identifying with my job too much?

    1. Ali G*

      You can’t take it personally. There will always be someone out there that doesn’t like what your company does/how they do it, etc.
      I worked for 15 years for companies that were regularly protested with long-term campaigns launched against them. There will always be someone yelling and screaming from the sidelines, but it’s not about you.
      Repeat – It’s not about you.
      Does your company do anything to counteract the negative press? Maybe you could assist with that – would that help you feel like you have some control over it? I personally did not like being in charge of responding to negative claims and stuff. It’s a losing battle sometimes. But some people enjoy it!

    2. FFHP*

      Same. I work for a large public school district and nearly every day there’s a negative story in the news about one of our 80+ schools, 55,000+ students or 7,000+ employees. In sheer numbers we’re larger than many cities, and we are constantly dealing with the effects of poverty in our schools, so OF COURSE things are going to happen. We NEVER want anything bad to happen and actively work to prevent things from happening. Most of our employees truly care about the students and want them to succeed, and anonymous parent surveys show most students and families have good experiences in our schools. Statistically speaking, most all of our students graduate on time and never experience an unsafe event at school.
      When something negative does happen, it’s really hard to watch the news coverage and see how things get reported inaccurately, or how incidents get blown out of proportion. We’re always painted as irresponsible, uncaring, etc., but by and large it’s not true. I will say our Communication office has done a great job giving the media positive stories about things going on with our students and employees – because for every negative story, there are at least 5 positive stories.

    4. MuseumChick*

      Optics will always be a problem for certain companies/industries. People love to complain and its much rarer for them to discuss when they have gotten good service. For example, nearly every apartment complex I have ever lived in has lots of negatives reviews on line. I have loved each place and never had any issues except fora noise issue in one apartment.

      You cannot take it personally. It’s simply human nature.

    5. Lora*

      Oh gosh. I work for Big Pharma. I have worked for the biggest of Big Pharma. I often want to shove the entire Marketing Department into a volcano in the hopes that their sacrifice might raise the average ethical behavior of the field. I’ve had to do a LOT of mandatory court-ordered company-wide trainings that were essentially, “Marketing fked up and tried to bribe a regulatory agent, FYI passing bribes is wrong”. I mean, I’m clear on why human sacrifice is technically wrong, I’m just saying, sometimes, I understand.

      I just remind myself that if I actually want to make drugs, this is where you do it.

      1. MuseumChick*

        I have a friend who works in a field closely related to Big Pharma. I showed him this post and he couldn’t stop laughing.

        1. Lora*

          I mean, we do a lot of cool stuff that you really cannot do anywhere else! I personally have been on teams where we took a drug all the way from Drug Disco to Commercial and got to see our “huh, that’s a weird result…” turn into actual parents of patients showing us pictures of their kids who lived past age 8 thanks to the drugs that resulted from our work, while we shuffle our feet and get all embarrassed. So that’s a thing you hardly ever get to do in other jobs. And we get to play with really cool technology that the academics don’t have, which is very nice and makes things much faster. There’s a lot of good things.

          I just despise the Marketing Department, everywhere, all of them, in pharma. I understand the calculus of why they exist, I understand the math behind their continued employment, I just hate their work beyond my ability to put into human language.

          1. MuseumChick*

            I feel you. I kind of hate all Marketing Departments (I apologize to anyone who works in marketing). I’ve noticed (having worked at most smaller places, like less than 100 employees) that if the Marketing Department people start to be promoted it spell doom for an organization because everything becomes more Flash than Substance. But that just my (very biased) opinion.

          3. neverjaunty*

            The math behind their continued employment is very flawed. Because apparently nobody is considering the actual costs of the negative publicity, the regulatory scrutiny, the lawsuits….. my guess is your C-suite doesn’t want to see it (after all, they’re not getting a balance sheet showing that in dollars and cents) and Marketing, being Marketing, is very good at talking their way out of it.

            1. Lora*

              No, they do consider it. They just still come out ahead. It might be $0.01 ahead, but it’s ahead.

              Example of one I have not worked for: J&J fined 2.2B USD for marketing shenanigans of Risperdal.

              Sales of Risperdal: estimated at 30B USD while it was still under patent, currently about 1.5B / year after going generic
              R&D costs ~ 1B
              Marketing costs ~2B (Marketing regularly has 2-3X the R&D annual budget at any given Big Pharma)

              Lawsuit costs vary widely by company. They don’t have as many lawsuits as you’d think, many big ones that you’d imagine would look like a nice big fish to any tort lawyer, actually don’t get sued all that much because the company makes examples of plaintiffs and makes them go all the way to the Supreme Court, and not many people can afford that kind of litigation. They are very used to regulatory scrutiny, to the point that it doesn’t much bother them; they have often reckoned that it’s cheaper to pay the consent decree and keep operating like crap than to actually upgrade a facility. And the publicity doesn’t actually hurt them much either – if you’re sick and in pain, are you actually going to hand a scrip back to your doctor and say, “no thanks, I’ll just have my leg fall off / continue wishing for death to bring me peace, I disagree with this manufacturer’s ethos”? The people who need the drugs NEED them, and if they are the only game in town (they often are), there’s no other option really.

              So, it sucks. But there’s nothing I personally can do about it, other than complain about how dumb it is.

          4. JustaTech*

            Oh, a volcano! I’ve never thought of that. It’s not bad now, but my biotech was briefly owned by the Worst People In The World, like, the NYT would find any excuse to kick them (and they deserved it).
            It’s soooo frustrating. With close friends and family I would often say “that’s the Evil Overlords, at it again!” in a tone that conveyed frustration and disassociation.
            I and my immediate team are not the people who are doing the thing that gets the company on the nightly news, and no I don’t want to listen to you tell me I’m a bad person.

            (The training on how not to bribe Russian officials was at least sort of funny in its absurdity.)

      2. Anon4This*

        I feel you. I work in healthcare and we’ve been in the news a lot over the last couple years with big lawsuits. What’s frustrating to me is that no one here seems to understand that things like Medicare fraud are a big no-no. Some of the people who were found guilty are still working here, and I would very much like to throw their whole department in a volcano, too.

        Somehow, the system still seems to have a good reputation overall, but I personally have lost a lot of respect for them based on the articles I’ve read.

      3. Maggie May*

        oh man, we are a global company and I don’t know how many times I’ve had to sit through “don’t freaking bribe people” training.

        like, is it wrong to buy the customs official a coke? is it wrong to give the customs official $50? Even if you reaaaaaaaaaalllyyyy need your stuff?

    6. Annie Moose*

      I work for a government contractor, and man… the inaccuracies that end up in newspapers! Every time there’s some technical problem, out come the conspiracy theories, even though the reality is something like, a programmer wrote a date calculation that’s off by one day and it was caught almost immediately. You just gotta be prepared for you and the people around you to be misrepresented… and maybe avoid those articles. You can’t stop it from happening, but you can continue to do a solid job and know at least for yourself that you’re doing what’s right.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        The inaccuracies kill me. It’s not so much that the facts are wrong, usually, as that they don’t have all the right context or they try to make something sound like a big deal when it really isn’t.

        “Agency spent tons of money on useless consultant report!” Well, no, it wasn’t useless, because of X, Y, and Z that wasn’t reported. “Agency considering doing crazy thing!” No, one board member asked an off-the-wall question and staff answered it and nothing is going any further than that. “Agency spent tons of money doing bureaucratic thing!” Yes, we did follow federal regulations as required, thank you very much.

    7. Autumnheart*

      I work for a well-known company, which has gotten a lot of good press in the last few years, but about 10 years ago it was all bad news, all the time. I basically avoided reading those articles. Suffice to say that even reporters don’t have an inside view of what’s actually going on in the company, and while it is immensely frustrating to see the narrative controlled by a person who really doesn’t know what they’re talking about, it’s not something you can change. Plus, your company almost certainly has a team whose job it is to handle PR, so someone else gets paid to deal with it.

    8. Utoh!*

      I also work for a utility company (in IT) and bad press just comes with the territory. To top it off, we are a monopoly so we are under even more scrutiny. I take comfort in knowing I work for a company that really does put its money where its mouth is, and yes, we do have to raise our rates, but we also do a great deal of community outreach and assistance to our customers. I only identify with my job as far as how I perform it, everything else is out of my control.

    9. Guacamole Bob*

      I feel you on this one. I’m in a similar agency, and it sometimes drives me nuts, especially the way many decisions about how our agency operates are made in stupid political ways that aren’t what’s best for our customers.

      I try to focus on the good: the fact that my coworkers are great, we are doing good work that’s important to our customers and to the city we live in, that it’s a good working environment. I’m infuriated by our relationship to the media, but it’s important to consciously take a deep breath and move on after a particularly inaccurate or out-of-context article comes out in the paper. Take 5 minutes to rant to a colleague or family member about it, but don’t get hung up on it.

      And don’t post about it on social media, however tempted you might be.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      Oh I worked for a utility company, so I feel you here. We were shutting down a coal plant and got negative press for killing jobs (but no positive press for reducing our reliance on high carbon emission energy production). We were building a new natural gas facility that would help with picking up the slack from getting rid of said coal plant, and got negative press for that, even though it created jobs, was filling a desperate need in the area, and was significantly cleaner than coal. Not to mention it was also providing natural gas for SHIPS, which can’t use something like wind or solar, so we were reducing reliance on coal and gas where there wasn’t really another alternative.

      We had protesters outside our office on multiple occasions and so I came into work a few times with tons of police at every door checking our badges. No one wants to talk about how if we just got rid of gas entirely like the protesters were suggesting that meant that everyone with gas appliances would have to buy new ones and rewire their house for electric for those appliances.

      Anyways, yes, I feel your pain. That said, don’t identify with your job too much on these things. Negative news sells papers. When I talked with people who would complain about rates or things, I educated them. When I talked to people complaining about the natural gas facility, I educated them. Sometimes people appreciated the information, sometimes they were stubborn about it and refused to listen. People are like that. The best you can do is educate the people you come into contact with, and ignore the rest.

      1. Midwest utility anon*

        Exactly! Totally agree with the “educate the ones you come into contact with”. It does make a difference.

        I work for a large utility and yeah, the only stuff printed is about raising rates, gas explosions, blackouts, or other complaints. The good stuff like purchasing solar and wind farms, putting money into renewable research, donations for schools and environmental issues are tiny paragraphs on page 12.

        I figure this gives me an excellent example of how our local news media works and reports. It’s increased my awareness of looking for both sides of the story, since I see how skewed the reporting is for my particular company.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      My uncle worked for Well Known Paper. He worked there for decades. He said it’s very important to remember that a news article is nothing more than what the reporter sees from where they are standing. He went on to explain that at least 90% of news stories are NOT true. The story has embellishments, missing key details, biases, missing entire major components of the story, and some things are pure and out right lies.

      I got in the paper at one point by a situation blown so out of proportion, that the report did not even tell what actually happened. A couple of kind friends said, “Are you alright?” Yep. I am good here. I don’t think the reporter even understood the situation. That is what it looked like when I read the article.
      In that moment what my uncle had warned me about come home to roost.

      All we can do is learn from it. We can offer other people the benefit of the doubt more often We can say things like, “I know what happened with my work/company so I know that stuff gets distorted sometimes to the point of beyond recognition.”
      And we can encourage other people to get news from more than one source. This helps also.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s like property managers. You can never believe the press or coverage. When you work for a general public serving job, lots of people will hate you just got existing.

      Detach detach detach.

    13. swingbattabatta*

      I’m also in the utility industry, and I fantasize about writing editorials or corrections to articles. Never do, and have to strongly resist the urge to comment online, but MAN do I show them what’s what in my head.

    14. many bells down*

      My husband works for a video game company. Hoo boy. Any announcement AT ALL will invariably be met by huge blog articles about how awful it is. And in the last year or so there’s been two very negative stories released about the company.
      Gamers are a very … passionate bunch. And it’s impossible to make them all happy.

    15. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      I worked as a contractor for a local government agency for some time. We had people protesting near our building twice a week, even a large group occupied the lobby and stayed all day. It took ages to get me out of there, and as far as I know they haven’t found my replacement yet.

  19. I'm not a Serial Job Hopper, Really*

    I’ve been with my company for 6 years and finally found a new position internally 8 months ago (different division of the company). Our company rule is that you have to wait a year before positing internally but a new job posted that I’m very interested in. Would it be terrible if I applied for it even though I haven’t been in the new role for a year? (The new role is def. not a good fit for me). And if I do apply, do I mention it in my cover letter?

    1. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

      Our company rule is that you have to wait a year before positing internally but a new job posted that I’m very interested in.

      Is this hard-and-fast in writing that they will not consider you for an internal job if you haven’t had the current one for a year?

    2. Armchair Analyst*

      Go ahead and apply. Act like you didn’t know or were surprised about the requirement “oh, it certainly felt like a year”. What the worst they can do, fire you?

    3. Scott M.*

      If you apply for it through normal channels, I bet that it would be seen as a negative. You may be viewed as an employee that can’t even follow one simple rule.
      One possibility is to discuss it with your manager and see if she can indicate your interest through other channels (if she is OK with losing you).
      Otherwise, I wouldn’t do it.

      1. Kathenus*

        Agree with Scott M. Since there is definitely the possibility of it being perceived as negative (didn’t take the time to look at the rules, thinks they are above the rules, etc.), asking the question directly about whether or not the rule is hard and fast or if there is any flexibility might be the best option.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This sounds good to me — if your manager’s willing to recommend you to the other group and that other group’s actual hire-to-start date is out four months after you hit your anniversary, it would be an all-around positive.
        If you don’t want to discuss it with your manager, is your organization the kind where you might actually meet up with the other hiring manager in the cafeteria/breakroom/etc? If yes, say hello and say you saw their your post in the newsletter and wish it were just a few months later because you haven’t hit the magic 12-month mark in your current role. Ask how long the position might stay open or re-open… and take it from there.
        Good luck!

    4. Semaj*

      Don’t do it. There’s a similar rule where I work and applicants are asked to confirm that they are ‘eligible’ (past their probationary period) before they apply. If I trusted that you applied under the rules of the company and I wasted all this time interviewing you and extending an offer, only to have your current boss call me up and inform me you aren’t even eligible I’d be pissed. The rules are different everywhere, but there’s a potential to burn bridges here and to look shady both to your current department and the new one.

    5. Psyche*

      When would the new job start? I work somewhere with the same requirement and applied after 10 months, but the job started exactly a year after I started my previous position so it didn’t cause any issues. They do make exceptions if your current manager agrees so I would not have had a problem, but it would have been extra paperwork.

      1. Psyche*

        Additionally, is this something you can talk to your current manager about? If your current manager agrees it is a bad fit they may help you with applying for internal positions. Of course all of this depends on how much you trust your manager.

  20. Very anon for this one*

    I am part of a Facebook group where there are part time, one-off gigs posted frequently and if you are available, you can respond. Although the following post was eventually deleted, people had some thoughts about this. I’d love to get your thoughts on it too.

    Seeking 2 llama groomers for XYZ event March 1st, will be grooming llamas!

    2 female llama groomers
    Race – Caucasian
    Height 5’7 +
    Must have- All black llama grooming outfit
    Will be grooming llamas- Basic llama grooming knowledge ***

    Details:
    Date: March 1 2019
    Time: 3-9
    Base pay $XX + TIPS
    Place: City, State (will reimburse up to $X for travel)

    Please email resume and photos (head shot & full body length) to EMAIL.

    Some details:
    – Person posted is a person of color (which some people commented on)
    – The OP stated that this is a client request and not his or her own. The OP seemed to be a staffing agent of some sort since he/she used the word “client.”
    – The OP also stated that she has asked for Hispanic/Spanish speaking staff (most likely also a client request) before with no backlash and could not understand why.
    – It is not unusual to ask for height/age/other requirements in this industry.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Was it for an entertainment or performing industry gig? The insistence on gender and race seem odd, even if height/age requirements are not odd.
      I think of “booth babes” in the expo and convention world….

      1. Very anon for this one*

        Gender requirement is also a “norm” in the industry. The posting was not for a “booth babe” and there was nothing in the job description that would indicate that males would not be able to do this job. Think something simple such as “banquet server” or “short term retail associate.”

        1. Armchair Analyst*

          So the odd part is the race requirement?
          What about the tips?

          Do you want us to think in one specific way or many ways? What do YOU think about it?

          1. Very anon for this one*

            You can comment on whatever part of the post interests you :)

            I personally feel that this person is honest but should have stipulated that clients are asking for these requirements to avoid the backlash. They are the paying clients and warranted or not, they should get what they pay for.

            I would have applied if I met the height and race requirements. Why waste my time applying knowing that I am not who you are looking for? There are tons of recruiters out there who don’t explicitly state that they are looking for certain things and are wasting my time by having me apply fully knowing I won’t get the job.

            1. fposte*

              It doesn’t matter if it’s what the clients want if what the client wants is illegal. You can’t post an ad for heroin for your client, either.

    2. Decima Dewey*

      I thought requests for staff by sex and race went out decades ago.

      A head shot and full body length photograph required? Really? I’m getting a whole slew of bad feelings about this.

      Also, asking for Hispanic/Spanish speaking staff could be an essential part of a request if the staffing agency is filling a request from a client that’s doing an event in which Spanish speakers are an important demographic.

      1. Very anon for this one*

        Having to submit photographs is normal for our industry as well. These photographs are in good taste – they even specify that they don’t want to see you in your bikini etc. (unless the role is for swimsuit model or the uniform shows your stomach and that is generally stated in the posting)

        Absolutely agree about the Hispanic speaking staff!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Race is all wrong.
        It’s not analogous to language skills — those are something you work hard at to learn & maintain.
        Height could in some cases be arguably relevant — if the event stores grooming supplies on a high shelf and no footstools are allowed in the llama stalls, or if they’re debuting the new giraffe-llama crossbreed. ;)

        (And I know it’s an analogy but I did find myself sidetracked wondering why random people would tip llama groomers.)

        1. Your comment made me LOL*

          The same reason they are tipping hairdressers or waiters! They are providing a service to you/your llama.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Oh of coyrse…I was picturing someone grooming the corporate llamas on display at the trade booth.

    3. fposte*

      Assuming that race and gender aren’t BFOQ for this job, this is likely to be illegally discriminatory (whether it is will depend on the jurisdiction and the size of the staffing agency’s business and the client’s business). EEOC has held *both* staffing agencies and hiring employers liable in such discrimination.

    4. Aunt Piddy*

      Yikes no, that’s not okay at all (and a little creepy). If it’s not for an entertainment industry job (actor, model, etc) it’s also probably illegal.

      The request for a head and full body picture puts it over the edge into creepy territory for me.

      1. Very anon for this one*

        I can say that 99.9% of the jobs in this industry require a head shot and some (not all!) require a full length, family friendly photo. It’s not for an actor/model but the industry is (in part) about looks. Depending on the client, they do want women to be model-esque.

        1. fposte*

          And that may be legal if they can prove it’s a bona fide occupational qualification, or it could be an industry riding for an EEOC fall.

          1. Very anon for this one*

            I’m sure there are many instances where it would be hard for them to prove BFOQ. Over a decade ago, a girl told me that she was hired by a staffing agency to represent an internet or cable TV provider, talking about their services, where to go for support, etc. at a community festival. When she got to the festival, she realized every single person out of 20 was blonde, tall, and female, herself included. Highly doubt that was a coincidence, nor can only tall, blonde females have the ability to talk about cable TV packages.

        2. JustaCPA*

          Its impossible for me to comment based on the parameters you have offered.

          Other than the entertainment/modeling industry, I honestly can’t think of any other where its ok with request the things being requested. Without knowing more about what industry it is, I would simply say the client requests are illegal and I would therefore nto want to work for this person.

          But I’m not clear what your question is?

    6. Lilysparrow*

      The poster put the wrong title.

      If the client’s top screening criteria is by gender/looks/ethnicity/body type and costume, then they are hiring models/actors who can also groom llamas.

      If they wanted llama groomers with a “glamorous” or “professional” or “quirky” appearance, or whatever, then the top screening criteria would relate to grooming skills and experience, and they’d sort for appearance afterward.

      The industry may be llama related, but this particular client is hiring for entertainment purposes, not skill. The poster should have accurately specified the nature of the job.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I bet you’re right; that’s a really helpful framing. But to keep the BFOQ you really need to make sure your postings are clear; it sounds like this staffing agency is asking for trouble.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          A lot of people – particularly in event production, IME, don’t actually understand the difference between a casting call and a job opportunity.

          1. hmm*

            That’s an interesting comment. What makes those in event production so unsure as to what is considered a casting call and what is a job opportunity?

            1. LilySparrow*

              I have no idea why. It’s just the type of gig where I most often see job descriptions that are actually casting calls.

              Perhaps – and this is sheer speculation – it’s because planning and promoting events is marketing work, not work related to a specific industry like hospitality or manufacturing or technology or finance. It’s often outsourced to professional promoters. And so the planners/promoters lean toward advertising/entertainment practices instead of ordinary hiring practices.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Ah, the clever ways wrongdoers find to get away with their illegal behavior.

        I suppose they might get away with hiring “models who know how to groom llamas” or “models who can do accounting” or whatever the actual job is. But that doesn’t make it any less wrong, and it’s still begging for a lawsuit.

    7. n*

      This reminds me of American Apparel job ads. They require a full-body photograph. And while on the surface, they claim to be hiring retail associates, they’re actually hiring models who can also sell clothes.

      It may be standard in certain industries, but it’s still icky, illegal, and discriminatory. Even if I did meet the requirements, I would not want to apply for a job like this because all this ad says to me is that I’m being hired for looks and therefore will likely be objectified and harassed by customers in the process. I’m not into that.

      1. Very anon for this one*

        But what if the requirements were the opposite?

        Let’s say a plus sized clothing store was hiring plus sized sales associates and you meet those requirements. You are looking for a new job and have sales associate experience that. The salary range is within what you are looking for. Would you apply for that opportunity?

        1. LilySparrow*

          Not if they specified that candidates had to be white, female and/or tall and blonde.

          If they’re hiring to please the customer’s eye rather than the customer’s need to have the work done, then it’s a modeling gig and they should just say so.

          And pay accordingly.

        2. Amy Farrah Fowler*

          I will not apply for anything that asks for a picture. Period. Full stop.

          I want to be evaluated on my resume, my qualifications, and my ability to do the job. I do not want to be evaluated on my looks at all for a job.

        3. n*

          I’ve never seen a plus-sized clothing store hire only plus-sized people (which is not to say this doesn’t happen, but that I see the original scenario waaayyyyyyyy more often). And I’ve seen straight-sized people working in plus-sized stores regularly.

          And we’re not just talking about body-size– we’re talking about race and gender, which are legally-protected statuses.

    8. Alldogsarepuppies*

      My thought is that they deserve the backlash, but with this type of coding I can’t say how much. What industry is this where your looks always matter but its not a modeling/entertainment service?

      1. Very anon for this one*

        I can think of a few: pharma sales rep, certain positions in companies that make “21+ in the US” beverages, PR, fashion, beauty

        Not saying that any of these are for the original posting but those are some examples I can think of. I once overheard a guy on an Amtrak saying on the phone that he was looking for a medical device sales rep who went to the gym, was fit, takes care of himself, works hard plays hard etc and didn’t mention anything about sales experience to whomever was on the other line!

        1. Alldogsarepuppies*

          Ugly people are able to sell medicine and beer though. And certainly race doesn’t matter in any of those.

        2. Jasnah*

          I don’t think that guy you “once over heard on an Amtrak on the phone” is a good standard for what is legal and/or appropriate in hiring practices. It sounds like someone explaining to the recruiter what they want, and then the recruiter will go and ignore everything except “medical device sales rep” because the rest of those are illegal or unethical to consider.

          1. Very anon for this one*

            I didn’t say that he was a good example to follow, just an example of what people are looking for that had nothing to do with the original job.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I was thinking of dancing, both exotic and… non-exotic? I’m picturing a client hiring exotic dancers for a party, or perhaps go-go dancers. Or “exotic” servers, like cater-waiters who walk around with minimal clothing serving canapes. In those cases, I think it’s much closer to modeling and I’m not surprised that a particular look is specified. I don’t like it, but I think that’s the nature of the business.

    9. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Makes me remember a local job board for the automotive industry, last time I checked their ads stated gender, age, height and college degree required to apply. The only available positions for women were admins, assistants and janitors. I heard their HQ force diversity initiatives, but they were for workshop positions only.

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      UK here… and unless has set up legal exemption in advance, very, very illegal.

      (Exemptions are pretty strict and rare… outside of actors where a role is a certain race, you’d have to be in a social work or support agency and jumped through all the hoops (easiest would be “women only for refuge position” but also “minority candidate required for counselling on minority-specific issues”).

  21. Ann O'Nemity*

    Does anyone’s company make all employees sit through HR trainings? I just spent an hour in a mandatory-for-everyone Harassment Prevention training that included a comically bad video from the early 90s, shoulder pads and all.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think that’s HR training per se, and I’m actually in favor of discrimination/harassment education for everybody in a workplace. (It’s mandated at my employer, since we’re state.)

      However, finding *good* training is another matter, and yours sounds . . . substandard.

    2. Millenial Lizard Person*

      Ours are online trainings, so you can mute them because you can read faster than you listen. I do enjoy that it’s “Anti-Bribery Training” but “Harassment Training” so at the end you’ve learned how to harass people correctly.

      1. Betty*

        We do online trainings but in one of the first times we had it, we didn’t know the training timed us and like 1/3 of the department got a notice that the software thought we’d done it too fast and failed us. (We’re academics. We’ve spent decades spending most of the day reading. We read fast.) The next year, the department admin emailed us all with the reminder to leave the training open in the background to make sure the software recorded it as active for long enough.

        Reader, it was an ethics training.

        1. anon teacher for this*

          Ours, in a k-12 school district, is essentially a video of text slides (sometimes there are also stock photos). You are not allowed to fast forward and must read them at the pre-determined (extremely slow) pace they are also being read aloud to you at. Well, I take that back. You are allowed to fast forward in the sense that there is a button for that, but if you use it you are scolded and required to re-start the video and “watch” it again.

          Then, there is a multiple-choice quiz with 5-10 questions.

          This is for a long series of “You Have Been Told” trainings: FERPA, Mandatory Reporter, Harassment, etc. We have to take them every year, they do not change in any way from year to year, and there are many hours of them. I generally turn off the sound and let them run on my laptop on a tv tray while I’m watching Ninja Warrior (on the TV, not on the same laptop as the training), since they both conveniently happen in August/September. I have had not had any trouble passing the quizzes using this method.

          I’ve never seen a worse format for actually learning or referencing anything than these videos, since it’s not like you could easily search through one of them later in the year if it turned it you did have a question about harassment/FERPA/mandatory reporting/integrated pest management/whatever. If one of them were ever over something I didn’t already know about I’m not sure if I’d try to watch it or if I ‘d try to find somewhere else to learn about it first and then treat the video like all the others. I’m sure if they assigned any of our teachers to design an actual curriculum to teach any of these topics it would look very, very different, but it’s not about having the staff learn. It’s about them being able to document that the staff has Been Told, which is a completely different thing.

          My dad says that at his previous workplace (a bunch of mainframe systems programmers and other old-school techies) they’d split up responsibility for screen-shotting each new training of this type among their team, then share the screenshots so everyone had access to them while taking the tests.

    3. JanetM*

      We have annual, mandatory, online training for IT Security, FERPA, and Sexual Harassment/Domestic Violence.

    4. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

      I currently work for as Fortune 500 company in the U.S. and yes, we have to watch these videos. My favorite one about harassment featured as an example making fun of someone because they were of Irish heritage – “we know how you guys like it – Spuds and Suds!”. It was like someone at corporate HR figured that examples with POC and/or LGBTQ folks might be a little too edgy or something.

      1. Teach*

        We had one on sexual harassment that featured a woman leering at a man and saying, “Niiiiiice pants, Tim.” Which then created roughly four years of us all greeting each other with cheerful pants compliments, because we are all 12.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Exjob did. They used a decent training module, but some of the examples I’ve seen at other companies were pretty cringeworthy and even hilarious. I recall one with a dramatization about a guy making jokes in the break room that involved a banana. It was funny mostly because the acting was so bad!

    6. Busy*

      Almost every job I have had. And they should train employees on harassment. But the 90s Dupont-type videos are terrible, and I wish some company would make more modern ones!

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Absolutely. I work for a university and we do several mandatory annual training classes — Harassment and Discrimination prevention, FERPA, Basic Computer Security are the 3 that immediately come to mind, but I think there is one more. Ours not only has dated video presentations, but quizzes throughout that we must pass.

    8. iglwif*

      Yes, absolutely. Hazardous materials handling, dealing with harassment and workplace violence, safety, disability accommodations … I forget what else.

      It was mandated by the Min of Labour, IIRC, which at least meant there weren’t any videos from the early 90s!

    9. Dreamboat Annie*

      Government Agency. Our Diversity training/EEOC is online and I was surprised to see that they mentioned sexual orientation mentioned for the first time EVER. It was as an “aspect of diversity”.
      Note that LGBTQ people don’t any protections as such in my locale. I was actually surprised at how forward thinking the whole thing was and wondering if our new HR Director is going to get a talking-to about it.

    10. Coverage Associate*

      Yes. I think some jurisdictions require it for employers over a certain size. And some insurers require it/offer significant discounts for it, even when the government doesn’t require it.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      They’re delivered over our computer at our convenience now but yes. And we get to do it every few years when they expire, too. I just learned how not to take bribes for the third time.

    12. Anon4This*

      Yep. We have to do mandatory training every single year. The same work place violence / sexual harassment / discrimination / basic work place etiquette / etc videos every year. It’s not just irritating, it’s infantilizing to assume we are such idiots that we can’t remember not to harass people year after year.

    13. Maggie May*

      we have to do these weird quizzes that have videos and quizzes throughout/at the end. Like it’ll either be a cartoon drawing of situations or actors going through scenes and then you have to pick out what the bad thing is. One was for email phishing, so you had to watch Brad the Graphic Designer checking his email and see what he did wrong.

      Brad the Graphic Designer had a corner office with a plant and I was very distracted by that fact haha

      1. Anon4This*

        We have those ones with cartoon drawings too. I wonder if there is a set that organizations just buy somewhere. Most of the videos don’t require you to pay attention but those sneaky interactive ones will get ya.

    14. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      YEEESSSSS
      Our sexual harassment training is online. It covered four bullet points on sexual harassment, I think they were:
      – Know what sexual harassment is and what can be reported
      – Know that you can report it if it happens to you – here’s how
      – Know that retaliation is not ok, here’s how to report retaliation
      – Know that honesty is key – don’t make false claims
      Notice anything missing? Hour long training never once, ever, said DON’T HARASS PEOPLE or DON’T RETALIATE.
      I was so annoyed.

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We did them as “safety meetings” at previous jobs. They fall under the heading because it’s an OSHA issue as well as just standard laws. It’s silly but Labor department looks kindly upon it as a way to avoid issues.

      If you don’t, then get reported for an alleged violation, they will ask why you don’t train employees and use it against you in the claim. Department of Civil Rights will be all over the company for being complacent.

      1. NotMyRealName*

        We just did our non discrimination training as our monthly safety meeting last month. The video was actually better than most of training videos we get to watch.

    16. UK Civil Servant*

      Yes, via online courses, and we have to renew some of them every 1 or 2 or 3 years. There’s a box on our yearly review form to tick that we’re up to date. I renewed *all* of mine in one day this year and it took 5 or 6 hours.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I don’t know if I could sit through them all in one stretch. I had enough trouble getting through an hour today!

        1. Anon4This*

          Very few people actually watch ours. Start the video in the background on your computer, do something else, when the video is done do the same with the next one until they are done. There are tests after each but they are such basic common sense subjects that it’s pretty easy to pass without watching the video. Which is another reason why the system is stupid.

          2. UK Civil Servant*

            Ours aren’t videos, they’re interactive slideshow things. Lots of “click on this picture to find out the next nugget of info”. Progress is tracked so your manager can check if they want, then there are tests with 80% pass mark.

    17. Gertie*

      I actually like our IT Security Training video. Probably because the humor is so over the top, and the video is narrated by a Famous Actor (from a long time ago in a galaxy far away) that the company has a relationship with.

    18. Kendra*

      I had an online “Standards of Business Conduct” training! But I work for a very large company who put a lot of money into the production budget for it, so it felt more like watching a Netflix drama than doing a training :D

    19. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Not just HR training. In health care, and management track. So ethics, diversity, mental health (an 8 hour in person), harassment, regulatory & compliance, IT/ security (don’t leave your computer unlocked and walk away; don’t print out and hand patient records to others); much more. I spent close to 1 week sitting in classrooms and clicking through videos (each course is at least 1 hour).
      That excludes the “target” and “stretch”goals for training and “growth” I have to meet “personally,” which involve things like shadowing clinicians or customer service agents answering calls, or 1-2 days seminars/ training in management/ conflict/communication, etc.
      Fortunately sideways on the food chain right now, so they no longer send me to the almost-week-long conferences.

    20. ..Kat..*

      Our sexual harassment training used to use realistic, but simulated people (think cartoon people, but very realistically drawn). EXCEPT, all the women had tiny waists and DD size breasts.

  22. Interviewee with a cold*

    I’m not the OP, but I did interview with a cold this week. It was an internal interview, so I asked the team ahead of time if they wanted me to postpone. Answer: no, we’d need to adjust to your germs anyway. I wish I had postponed, though, because I felt mentally sluggish. It’s hard to feel on your game when you have to stuff tissues up your nose. I really wouldn’t have wanted to do an external interview — I could fall back on “you’ve worked with me before” to sell myself, but I couldn’t do that with new people.

  23. Anon Admin*

    My boss wants me to “track” another coworker who has received some complaints. She doesn’t answer her phone, return voicemails or emails and is often not at her desk. He spoke to her and it improved for awhile and now it’s happening again. I feel icky doing this but how do I say “no” when my boss basically ordered me to do so? I think he might be planning a formal reprimand soon and wants to have some specifics to point to. He left on vacation this morning and he wants me to do the “tracking” while he’s away. She’s going to know I was the one who “tracked” her and I’m sure that will cause friction.

    (Currently, she had been in another office talking/gossiping about a coworker who is out on medical leave for 37 minutes. I feel so gross doing this.)

    1. Leela*

      I’m not sure I love your boss asking you to do this; managing that employee is their responsibility unless you supervise them in some way, and it puts you in an incredibly awkward position.

      Also, it takes you away from your work. Are you able to say that with your workload you couldn’t reliably track someone? Or is your boss the kind of person who would yank your work to free you up and pressure you into doing this?

      1. Anon Admin*

        I’m in the least busy period of the year for me and I sit directly across from this coworker, so I think that’s why it was assigned to me. Part of me is mad at my boss and part of me is mad at her, because when she was spoken to, she improved so it’s not like she doesn’t know she needs to do better. She can be a bit dramatic, so I’m expecting a drama bomb if/when he speak with her.

        Oh God- I hope he doesn’t ask me to sit in on the meeting and read the tracking notes or something.

        1. valentine*

          If you didn’t post this before, you’re not alone in this situation.

          I don’t understand not wanting to help. I would struggle to contain my enthusiasm at getting paid to CSI.

      1. Anon Admin*

        My boss is not her direct boss, but he is the “big” boss. Her direct boss is the person out on medical leave she is still in the other office talking about. (She tends to be on the loud side and our walls are pretty thin). Since her boss is out on medical leave, my boss has to supervise her and had to have the talk about not answering the phone, returning calls/voicemails, not being at her desk for long periods of time. He was hoping to let her boss be the one to speak with her but he must have had some complications and will be out another few weeks.

        1. valentine*

          It’s kind of him to take this on. Do you feel better if you think of it as helping him right the ship before boss returns? So this isn’t hanging over her head when she returns?

          Ask him whether your involvement is anonymous and mention you’re worried about retaliation.

    4. Paige*

      I get why it feels icky, but if she were doing what she was supposed to, you wouldn’t have anything to report. And I mean, it shouldn’t be on you to track voicemails/etc., but if she’s not at her desk when she should be, that’s something anyone could report, really. “I tried to go see Coworker, but she wasn’t there at Time A, Time B, or Time C, which I thought was weird.”

      Honestly, just be glad you’ve got a boss who wants to address it, but who didn’t resort to having someone “track” her as the first step. She had a chance to do what she’s supposed to, she knows it’s on the big boss’s radar, and yet she’s started doing it again. I’ve had coworkers like that, and it slowly becomes infuriating/morale depressing when the boss knows and does nothing. Better to nip it in the bud well before it reaches that point, and in time to save the employee’s job.

      1. sunshyne84*

        agreed, sounds like they will actually do something and if she loses her job it’s her own fault

        Who is doing her job while she’s away gossiping?

        1. Anon Admin*

          It’s not getting done. She has some voicemails that she has not checked and she hasn’t even opened her email today.

          I really want to say “Hey your job might be on the line, please do some work” but I know I can’t. I think that might be what happens when the boss returns from vacation. She did really well when she started so I know she can do the job. I don’t understand why she has slacked off so much.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Are you on good terms with your coworker? Are you sworn to secrecy by Big Boss? Will it affect your job if she gets mad? If it were me, I honestly might give her a general heads up that I’ve been asked to …umm, help her improve her customer service, and if she needs any pointers for keeping on top of phone calls, emails or returning calls, I’m there to…umm help. That way she sort of knows that she’s being tracked. I do understand that you’d just rather not be involved, but I don’t think NOT doing this is an option so it might be better to be less discrete about it rather than more — she can’t play victim of a secret plot if it isn’t that much of a secret.

      1. Anon Admin*

        I would say we are on ok terms. I’ve offered to help her before and she always refuses. When she started the position, she was doing well. I have also noticed that when the other 2 members of her department are away (like today- her manager is on medical leave and the other coworker took the day off) , she tends to wander more. They have a pretty big event coming up in March, so I know she had things to work on.

    6. CM*

      Ugh. I don’t think you can say no, since it’s your boss asking you. I think your best bet is just to do it, feel icky, and if she confronts you say, “I’m sorry, I didn’t want to do it, but I was instructed to do this as part of my job.”

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      Is this tracking just while he is on vacation and coworkers direct supervisor is on medical leave? If so I don’t have much of a problem with it since it seems to be more of a last resort (and I’m guessing he is correctly under the impression that her behavior will be worse when all the bosses are out of the way) and not a permanent thing.

      How would you feel if boss came to you and asked for feedback on coworker? Would the stuff you say differ from what you are tracking?

      1. Anon Admin*

        Yes, it’s just while he’s away and her manager is on leave. My feedback would not differ much from what I’ve been asked to track. She’s been away from her desk almost 3 hours so far today, her phone has rang 12 times and she has voicemails (not sure how many, I just see the red light blinking). The small amount of time she had been at her desk, she has not checked the voicemails or opened email. I’ve had 2 workers from another location call me directly looking for her because they called and she did not answer.

        I don’t mind helping when I’m in a slow period (like now) but she always refuses any help and got upset with me for using the phone feature that allows me to answer any ringing line to answer her phone. It had rang over and over. She either ignored it or let it to go voicemail and did not check the voicemail. I am used to hearing phones ring, but when it’s obvious someone is dialing over and over, it might be urgent.

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m pretty sure AAM has answered a letter like this, but I can’t find it. IIRC, her response was, your boss can ask you to do this. You’re not tattling, and you’re not making up anything; this is something your boss asked you to do. And YOU aren’t the one getting your coworker in trouble. Coworker has been told this is a problem and is continuing the actions. Plus, your boss may not have the time or availability to do this on their own. If they’re in meetings or something 60% of the day, they HAVE to have someone else keep an eye on it, because they’re not around. Ideally, it would be someone in the coworker’s management chain and not you, but that doesn’t appear to be how it worked out.

      I’d just make sure you’re ONLY reporting facts, not assuming intention or motivation – just a dry factual log of # of missed calls, times they’re not at their desk, or whatever else it is you’re supposed to track.

      1. Anon Admin*

        Thanks. I am doing just the facts. I don’t know how exactly to word “she was gossiping about her boss for half an hour so loudly that I’m sure half the office heard her” so I’m putting away from her desk for half an hour.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, you can go with “away from desk for a half hour” or “talking loudly in office across the hallway for a half hour”. You don’t have to state the subject matter and honestly the subject matter is a smaller issue than the neglect of her post.

          I do agree the boss has asked you to do this, so you are pretty much on the spot. If she ever raises an issue with you then you can just say, “This could happen at any job, people can do reports on other people. It’s helpful to be aware that at any time any one could be watching what we are doing.”
          OTH, you can also say to the boss, “Gee, I hope I don’t have to do that again.” This might plant the seed that the boss needs to, uh, act like a boss.

          The sad thing here is with what you say, the boss could just call her and note down how many times she fails to answer or return his call. He could do this himself and get a fair idea. I took a temp job with 8 or 9 incoming lines. My boss would call right at the busy point to make sure I was answering ALL of the lines. Since it was a temp job, I just laughed and said, “You’re checking to make sure I answer all lines! Of course if I am talking to you, then I am not answering other lines.” I could hear the shrug/sigh/defeat in his voice, “Just doing MY job.” We were fine after that.

        3. The Ginger Ginger*

          You could say away from desk and having non-work related convo. That’s factual enough without getting….too detailed.

          I’m sorry you have to do this, but your co-worker. Yeesh.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If the phone rings again while she’s away from her desk, find an excuse to pass by where she’s gossiping and tell her in passing. Also consider mentioning that so-and-so was looking for her. That way you’ve covered yourself for a bit of whining about “no one TOLD me my phone had been ringing…”
      Which of course is silly because if she’d been doing her job at her desk no one would have had to.
      Good luck…I’ve lived through the magical disappearing co-worker too and it was pretty awkward just saying I didn’t know where she was. And that was on a short-term temp assignment when I wasn’t having to track her whereabouts in writing.

    10. Anon for this*

      Ew. I had a supervisor ask me to do this once. I was team lead, but this was still not really my responsibility. Someone on my team was taking more than the daily allowance for smoke breaks. We were hourly customer service, so being away from one’s desk for more than a few minutes was considered not working. So Supervisor asked me to walk past the window where I could see the smoking area outside after Coworker left his desk and note if he was out smoking. I had to keep track of his daily smoking habits for a week so it could documented that Coworker was taking several unauthorized breaks. Coworker found out I was tracking him. Coworker was an otherwise productive employee – he just smoked a lot.

      Have you tried telling your boss this makes you uncomfortable?

    11. AnonyMouse*

      I don’t blame you for feeling icky about this. I had a coworker (who has since left, thank goodness) who took it upon herself to track everyone’s behavior/whereabouts. She was never asked to do this and she was no ones supervisor. Someone left early? Documented. Someone came in late? Documented. Too loud? Documented. Too quiet? Documented. Someone sneezed? Documented. To be honest it made the office extra toxic for most of us. I felt like I was constantly being watched and even though she’s gone, I still have that feeling that my ever move is being monitored.

      Personally, I’d push back on this. Especially if her behavior is not affecting you or your work. As others have said, this is your bosses responsibility and not yours. Is it really so time sensitive that this has to be done while they’re on vacation? Or can they resume their tracking once they’re back? Maybe say something like “I tried to do what you requested, but I’m really not comfortable with this since I’m not her supervisor.” If there’s no way to push back, then could you just give general feedback, like “There were a few times during the week where she was away from her desk for a while, but otherwise she appeared to be working” or something along those lines?

      1. Rosaline Montague*

        Like others have said, your boss asked you to do this so IMHO you need to. But you can clarify the scope; for example, for how long!? This is t a sustainable activity for you and would keep you from doing your own work, presumably.

  24. Armchair Analyst*

    GREAT 2nd round phone interview with a hiring manager. Yay! New job would be 45% increase in pay, and more interesting and more people-oriented.
    Even if it doesn’t pan out, I am MUCH more motivated to keep applying for jobs – there’s got to be a better one out there.
    Thanks for the encouragement!

  25. Leela*

    I started a new job this week, and I am quite confident that a woman in the multi-stalk bathroom with me was masturbating based on the sounds I heard. I coughed awkwardly hoping she’d realize I was there and stop (I was in the middle of a longer bathroom visit and really couldn’t stop in the middle) but she finished, with me as a captive audience. This is a huge corporation, I’m also a contractor, I don’t have any idea how to contact HR at the moment save just searching “hr” in outlook and letting it go blindly to whoever.

    Thoughts? I mean more power to her in private but I was trapped there for her entire session and that’s really, really inappropriate. How would you proceed?

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Wow, I would have just assumed I wasn’t hearing what it sounded like I was hearing. For my own mental health. I have covered my ears in a public bathroom before to tune out a variety of noises (from phone conversations to … well never mind). Cone of silence! I definitely wouldn’t follow up or anything. Anyone want to disagree with me?

      1. Common Welsh Green*

        No disagreement here! According to dear Miss Manners, etiquette requires the pretence of ignorance when it comes to what others are doing in a bathroom. Commenting on the likely causes of noise simply Is Not Done.

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Oh my god how awkward! I don’t know what I would have done. If I was feeling cheeky, make those noises right back at her? Jokes aside, I probably would have just started making a lot of noise. Rustling toilet paper or humming or something just to get her to realise how weird that is.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Family member has bouts of constipation and FM will grunt and groan loudly from the bathroom.
        Perhaps you could grunt over her noises???

    6. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      Honestly? I think the risks to you for saying anything are too high. You’re not in a position of power: you’re a contractor and extremely new.

      I’m really sorry you were made to feel so uncomfortable by her behaviour, and you’re absolutely in the right, but I don’t think the chances of this being resolved in a way that’s good for you are good if you bring it up with this company.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      I would probably have called out, “Oh, my gosh, are you okay? Are you sick? Do you need an inhaler?”

      And if she didn’t stop and answer, I’d call her by name and say, “Hang on, it’s going to be okay, I’m going to go get (whoever you would get if someone were having a medical emergency in your office)!!!!”

      And then hurry to pull myself together and really go get the person and describe the sick person’s “symptoms.”

      I used to accept General Delivery packages of awkwardness. Not anymore, send that right back to the point of origin.

      And who knows, I could be wrong. She might actually be having some kind of attack, and then I’d feel terrible for assuming she was being a terrible person.

    8. Former Retail Manager*

      Walk away….say nothing. You really can’t prove what she was doing…you only suspect. Definitely weird on her part and I feel for you, but yeah, leave this alone.

    10. this way, that way*

      You cant report that to HR, you will be the joke of the company. There is no way when you call that in that they dont bring in the guy/girl in the next cube/office and make you repeat it and tell everyone. There is no amount of HIPPA or any other protection that will keep everyone from knowing you reported this.

  26. Gen*

    I’d like some advice on how to approach a topic about my schedule.

    I am a non-traditional premed, so I work full time. I have an opportunity to participate in a doctor shadowing program where I volunteer. The program is oriented toward student who don’t work. I have about two weeks of vacation saved, and including sick days, I could take off two days a week to do the shadowing.

    How should I talk to my employer about this? Do you think I might also be able to ask for a handful more days unpaid? (I am exempt, though so I’m not sure how they would handle that.) My employer has been very accommodating of one of my coworker’s schedules for school in the past, so I’m not super naive.

    I’m just nervous about asking because I don’t want to not say what the program is fir but I’m also showing my hand by Indy sting that I will leave in a year or so.

      1. Lou*

        If you need to explain the program, must you indicate that you’ll be leaving in a year? Or can you get by with massaging it a little and saying something like “I’m considering becoming a doctor and I thought this shadowing program would help me decide!” and leave it a little more opaque about the whole “leaving in a year” thing?

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Do they need to know what it’s for? Can you just say that for the next X amount of time you need to take two days off work for a commitment and that you’ll use your vacation time?

      1. Gen*

        You’re right, that’s probably the best approach. I’m taking the MCAT soon so I’m pretty frazzled right now!

    3. Llellayena*

      If they know you’re in school you can say: “I’m taking a course at school that is only offered in the daytime. I’m planning to use my vacation time to cover most of the days, but the course is longer than my available time. I’d like to use some unpaid days to make up the difference. Is this possible or is there another way you’d like me to handle this?” The other way might be making up the time either after hours or over weekends so be prepared with how that would work for you. If they don’t know you’re in school it’s a little harder but maybe start with “I have a personal development opportunity that is only offered in the daytime…”

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I take it you’re at a company that isn’t paying for your classes? Because if they’re paying for it, they probably can already guess where it’s going. Depending on your industry they may want you if you decide that medically trained is what they want. (I’m thinking of all those “medical writer” ads I see here in Pharma Corridor, the ones I can’t apply to because my background is not biology/chemistry.)

      I’d also suggest you talk to the administrators of the shadowing program — many doctors work nights and weekends and may be opened to shadowing then too. ER would of course be an eye-opener, but after-hours walk-in clinics and weekend healthcare centers also come to mind.

  27. Hold My Cosmo*

    How much effort do you put into what I’m tempted to call “chasing someone down to do them a favor”?

    For example, if I can see in my missed calls list that Fergus called my desk three times on a day I was on a job site, but never left a voicemail, never sent an e-mail, and never Skyped, I don’t feel particularly bothered to call and ask what he wanted.

    How does this work at your company?

    2. somewhere over the rainbow trout*

      Here, if they don’t leave a message, that’s on them. You don’t have to notice a missed call and ask them “why did you call?”. As you point out, there’s a variety of ways for this person to contact you and they never actually told you why they contacted you or what they wanted. You don’t need to start trying to track them down for details. A missed call isn’t a message.

    3. seller of teapots*

      Same. If someone doesn’t leave a VM or shoot me an IM/email, I assume they got the answer they needed elsewhere.

    4. Less Bread More Taxes*

      If they don’t leave a voicemail, I assume they got what they wanted from someone else and the case is closed.

    5. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      I’d send them an email asking what’s up. Normally they’ll reply by email or immediately call.

    6. Amylou*

      When I try to call someone multiple times (usually because they’re late replying to an email) and they don’t answer, I send off a quick email which says I tried to call them about X, and (I’ll try again tomorrow, but feel free to suggest a best time to call) or (please call back or see email about X, need it by Time).

      No voicemail, no email, no call-back :P

    7. manuka honey*

      I don’t have this problem at my company. Everyone here schedules time in your Google calendar even if they have a simple question that could be answered via email, IM, or just walking over to ask it. They just like to make it super official I guess.

    8. Ashley*

      If you call and don’t leave a message or text I assume you don’t need me and you got your info elsewhere. I do have this discussion with new co-workers who get annoyed that I should have called them back.

    9. sunshyne84*

      I would just call them and say hey I was on a job site the other day and saw you were trying to contact me, do you still have a question or were you able to handle it?

      Then if you are able to check email from your phone while you are away or take calls I would offer up that info for future use.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      No voicemail, no e-mail, no IM, no follow up from me. Partly because there’s a decent chance that they found someone else to resolve their issue in the meantime (I’m not the only one in my position or who would know certain things). And partly because it’s obviously (in my mind) not that important if they can’t be bothered to leave a message.

    11. iglwif*

      I don’t call people back unless they’ve left a message asking me to.

      My teenager informs me that “No one leaves voicemails anymore, mom” [insert eye-roll here], but IME if someone really needs to talk to me and needs me to get back to them, they will leave a message, or send me an email or an IM.

      Thus far, this has never caused a problem, although some people are unreasonable so you never know.

    12. froodle*

      Yeah I don’t bother. The is a group inbox for my department, two other people who do the same job as me and a supervisor two desks over. If you keep.badgering just me and won’t leave a record of what you wanted, I’m gonna assume it was some nonsense that involves them trying to palm their work off onto me.

  28. grace*

    Hi! Anyone done a long(ish) distance job hunt lately? I’m looking to move from $southernish state to DC (about 4 hours – it’s really not that far) this summer, and I’m not sure when to start applying – I know it takes longer for distance – or if there’s any merit in actually putting a DC address on my resume, as currently it doesn’t have my address at all.. Basically just a lot of questions, so if you done it semi-recently and have tips or tricks or advice, I’d love to hear it!

    (I took a look through the archives and mostly saw older ~2010 articles, so if there’s a more recent one I missed, I’d love that, as well.)

    1. Me.*

      I only have the following on my resume: Name, Email, Phone.

      How willing are you to go to DC to interview? When would you be willing to start? Are you able to meet them in person at the drop of a hat (let’s say 24 hours notice) Can you foot these costs on your own?

      1. grace*

        Honestly that’s good to know! I know a lot of conventional wisdom is to have address but I don’t like that – I’d rather not give out that information, especially when the resume may be posted through an online site. Maybe I’m just paranoid :P

        Very willing to go – I have friends I can crash with and my own transportation – but I’d need more than 24 hours notice as I think right now I’d feel too guilty taking a fake sick day (ask me again in a few months, though, and it may be a different story, ha). I’d like to have an offer in May/June and start in June or July – but I’m flexible and don’t need that long to give notice, just the standard 2 weeks. I can definitely carry the relo costs / travel for interviews cost on my own but obviously would love assistance with that, lol.

        1. Tara S.*

          I think you’re fine to leave off the address, and these days your phone area code doesn’t mean much since we all take our cell numbers with us when we move. Most jobs should be able to give you more than 24 hour notice for interviews, even if you have to ask for it (they ask if you can come in the next day, you say you have a commitment but could come in on X).

    2. Lebanese Blonde*

      I did this last summer! Granted I had lived in DC beforehand (and had things in storage in DC), but was freelancing from another country while I job hunted.

      I think I had on my resume: Name, Email, Phone number, Washington DC/Foreign City.

      My first Skype interview they asked about it almost immediately (especially bc my personal website said “based in Foreign City”), but I was able to just say “Yeah, I have connections there/plans to return to DC as soon as a job is secured, but I’m based in Foreign City doing XXX while I hunt.” It did require about 3 extra weeks of moving time from the time I got the offer, but all worked out.

      Not sure if putting two different cities on my resume made things more confusing than necessary, though — interested to hear others’ thoughts.

      1. grace*

        That’s really interesting! I’ve lived / interned / worked in DC before, so I’ve definitely played that up in my cover letter – I’m not moving for any reason that’s particularly compelling except that I’ve lived in my state all my life and it’s time to #go so really, emphasizing that I’ve experienced DC (and DC prices, lol) is all I’ve got haha.

        I definitely know that if it comes to a Skype interview I can emphasize all of this, but it’s difficult if I never get to that point :)

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Sounds like a logical a cover-letter item to me ! *Returning* to an area makes it easy for anyone to understand. You tried Timbuktu — but despite the great experiences you had designing teapots, you wanted to come back to the center of teapot development.”

          What does the commentariat think — Does that get a separate sentence? Or would grace use the location as a side-note about what she did there before? “….excited to find a teapot design position in Washington DC, where I previously worked as a teapot-handle prototyper.”
          “A teapot design position in Washington DC. When I previously lived in that area, I produced teapot handle prototypes for….”

          Cover letters are my nemesis so I’m loving the specific suggestions that get volunteered here.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      One time I eliminated a mid-distance candidate like you from consideration, and it was because the job I was filling wasn’t one any reasonable person should move for.

      The employer was a “cool” one (from the outside) but it wasn’t a great work environment and the job itself was a glorified part-time, hourly entry level thing. I did talk to her and got the impression she thought I wasn’t “giving her a chance” but that wasn’t the issue at all. She could do the job; she wouldn’t want it.

      So if you’re applying for jobs that might not otherwise appeal to out-of-town candidates, I’d definitely communicate that you’re actively moving to DC on top of being interested in the position on its own terms.

      And with not being available on 24-hours’ notice, that’s pretty normal. I can’t drop everything to rush into an in-person interview on that short of notice in town either. Just communicate that you’re available to come in for interviews, and only mention that you don’t need relo if they bring it up first.

      Lying about already being local is more stressful than it’s worth to me, especially when you’re close enough you can drive in without it being a huge project.

    4. BPT*

      When I was graduating from grad school in NC and looking for jobs in DC, I started in late February and didn’t get a job until July (offered in June, started beginning of July). I’d say go ahead and start – jobs in DC are very competitive and, especially if you’re entry level or close to it, it could take 50-100 applications to get one interview. This was 2010 for me, so I think the job market has changed to be a little more friendly to job seekers since then, but there’s still a lot of competition.

      That said, I don’t think the address matters that much, especially if you’re entry level. With jobs requiring 0-2 years of experience, I think a lot of employers realize that younger graduates are coming to DC from all over. If you’re above entry-level, it might matter more honestly, so I might err on the side of keeping it off. But if all your jobs on your resume are located in Southern state, they’ll figure it out anyway.

      1. Aunt Vixen*

        I left DC for grad school with every intention of returning, and when I emerged from grad school – in 2006, so for all I know *everything* has changed – and was temporarily living with my folks in another state (a full day’s drive away, but just one), I got nowhere with anyone. I hadn’t wanted to rent an apartment without a full-time job, but it turned out I couldn’t get a job without a local address. I moved, signed up with all the temp agencies I could find (only one of which ever actually got me any gigs, thanks, grr), and promptly started getting interviews.

        Good luck!

    5. Person of Interest*

      I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I’ve lived in DC and hired people from all over. Tons of people move to DC for work so it’s not that unusual to see out of town applicants; more common than in other cities in my experience. Just be clear in your cover letter what your timeline is for moving (or be ready to answer that in the phone screen) and be willing to travel to DC on your own dime for in-person interviews.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t listen to people who say not to list your city on your resume, it’s often required to even be accepted.

      I moved 5 hrs a few years ago. I was honest that I was relocating. I was willing and able to travel here for interviews. It was so easy. Just don’t play coy games, hiring managers see through them.

      We eliminate people who look like they’re just looking for an in to the city pretty quickly. It’s not worth our time.

      I wrote about relocating and my ability/willingness to drive to meet with them for an interview. I lined up 3 interviews for one day. I got 2 of the 3 jobs. All were impressed by my drive and desire to be there.

      Asking to Skype and making them guess about you and your reasons for being cagey about location is no good in my experience. But it works as well but can backfire

  29. robineer*

    Hi all! I’m a temp at a great public agency and would love to nab a permanent position if they had one available. However, I think open positions are rare because their retention rate is stellar.

    I’m considering moving on in about six months so that I can get a permanent position with benefits and more responsibilities. Though I like my current job, it is very easy and doesn’t offer much in benefits. The thing is, I got very ill and required surgery earlier this year. My manager let me take a leave of absence for six weeks even though I’m only a temp and she could’ve easily hired someone else. My timeline being at the agency is like so: Employed March 2018 – August 2018, contract renewed difficulties, November 2018 – December 2018, LOA, February 2019 – present.

    Would I be burning bridges if I leave in six months?

    1. Tara S.*

      Since your position was explicitly a temp position when you were hired, it doesn’t look odd to leave after a short time. The fact that it was temporary can also explain the gaps in your work by itself. I wouldn’t bother explaining the gaps on your resume (you can always do so in person if asked), but instead would just list the intervals you worked. If “Temporary” is in the job title, I think that explains the short stints to most people.

    3. Not All*

      As a fed, I can say that pretty much all our temps/terms/seasonals are chasing permanent positions. In over 20 yrs, I’ve never once met someone who would hold it against even the most critical temp/seasonal position who left because they were able to get on permanent someplace, no matter the timing. We all know how hard it is to get permanent!)

      (I also worked in really crappy office/location for awhile that we knew pretty much anyone we hired who didn’t have permanent status already would only stay in the job for the 1 yr it took to get it…it was just part of being in that office and we didn’t hold it against them.)

    4. Not my normal name*

      I don’t think you need to list the leave of absence at all. You wouldn’t do that if it was a permanent job, and being a temp makes it even less relevant IMO since there’s no real expectation that your work builds on itself.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That’s what I was thinking. I temped for more time than I like to remember, and when I came here I put down my time span with a particular agency, but bullet-pointed interesting assignments they gave me.
        And because I went back to some places more than once, I did have overlaps.

        TeapotDesignTemps January 2018- current
        -Teapot assembler, ILikeBigTeapots Ltd, March 2018-current
        -Teapot handle molder, TinyTeapots, Inc, August 2018
        -Coffepot lid coordinator, CoffeOrTea International. September 2018

  30. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    How do you deal with corporate speak without losing your mind? One of our higher ups has latched on to “source of truth.” “We need to use this as our source of truth.” “One person has to do all of this so they are our source of truth.” “What’s your source of truth?” I’m so tempted to reply “The teachings of the Buddha, you ridiculous twit!” (I’m not a very good student of the Buddha, obviously!) My shoulders go up to my ears with tension when I see them coming because I know “source of truth” isn’t far off. Ugh.

      1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

        Usually a document, though this person uses it for everything. “This P&P is our source of truth for XYZ”

        1. Tara S.*

          Hopefully it’s a phase and will disappear in a few weeks/months, but you could try to speed along the process by asking something like, “Boss, you keep using this term “source of truth” and I’ve been meaning to ask you what exactly you mean by that? I’ve never heard anyone else use that term for work stuff, and I think I get the gist but I wanted to be sure?” Pointing out how weird it is *might* help your boss see that it’s not effective communication and to knock it off sooner rather than later.

        2. A tester, not a developer*

          We use the term ‘book of record’; same idea – it’s the definitive source of information about XYZ, and anything that contradicts it is wrong. Unless someone forgets to update the BoR…

      2. Autumnheart*

        It’s basically a phrase used to define the standard for the company. For example, let’s say you have one central database for customer data, and applications across the enterprise pull data from that database, as opposed to maintaining their own (which means duplicating work, increased chance for error). So the central database is the source of truth.

        Sounds like this guy read a book and now he’s using that phrase everywhere.

    2. CatCat*

      “On a go-forward basis, I will interface with Ted and Linda on source of truth best practices. Why don’t I circle back with you this afternoon so we can close the loop on this?”

      I mean, not really. But gosh, I would be so tempted to just really jargon it up.

      1. SignalLost*

        My favorite boss ever and I did that. We’d come up with the most jargon-heavy terms we could and then announce we were a quarter-credit closer to our MBAs. It actually does help, if you’re a sarcastic person.

    3. fposte*

      If you don’t know what he means, ask; if you do know what he means, let it go. We all have verbal tics, and it’s not something that needs to be stamped out.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yeah, I was just going to say the same. Next time he says it, say, “Hey, just so I’m sure I understand you, what do you mean by ‘source of truth’? You say it pretty regularly and I want to make sure I’m understanding that phrase in the way you intend it. It has religious/philosophical overtones to me but that interpretation never makes sense in context.”

    4. ONFM*

      Maybe you should start using the phrase, but intentionally wrong? “Are these the new sales projections?” “Yes, it looks like this spring will be the source of truth.” I’d do it.

    5. I See Real People*

      Ha! This is one of my pet peeves as well. “Outside the box” has driven me insane for years now.

        1. Kowalski! Options!*

          Mine is “pen holder”: “Who’s the pen holder on this project?” “Fergus, as pen holder, will guide the team.” That, along with “tiger team”.

              1. swingbattabatta*

                I actually work with people who use this all of the time. I understand it to mean that the person who “holds the pen” is the one who controls all edits/changes to the project – it should go through them so they can make the changes to the original/master.

          4. Susan Calvin*

            Ok, that one stumped me until I realized it looks like an oddly localized version of the German adjective “federführend” (lit.: guiding the quill/pen) which I always liked, but then I have only encountered it in small doses so far.

            Language moves in mysterious ways I guess.

          5. Not So NewReader*

            No one else is allowed to use pens?

            I have heard, “by my pen” as in, “I got a 1 million dollar grant by my pen.”
            I’d like to borrow that particular pen, if I may.

            1. Anonybus*

              Oh, yeah. I remember “high touch” being a new buzzword at my workplace a couple of years ago. It squicked me out so much. Thankfully, it is no longer currently in use AFAIK.

        3. Tabby Baltimore*

          I know I’m two days late, but mine is “trade space.” I still have no truly clear idea of what this means, but if anyone in your office is using this phrase, a lot, you have my deepest sympathies.

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Right now, the buzz word at my job is innovation. Everything has to be innovative…except that what we’re doing is already years past the “next new thing” stage. Like if the administration just now heard about emojis and announced our new innovative hieroglyphic communication system.

        1. UK Civil Servant*

          A while ago the bigwigs in my gov area were very into us being more “entrepreneurial”. Except we’re explicitly here to do the stuff the private sector can’t/won’t/doesn’t do – if it’s “entrepreneurial” (i.e. risk for profit) we’re supposed to find and contract a private sector company to do it.
          Luckily they’ve moved onto “innovative” now. Still difficult with creaky IT and red tape, but not completely at odds with our core purpose.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Ugh, the current buzzword at my company is “disruptive” because of course it is. I hate that word. I don’t care if it’s all over the news, it has a negative connotation, people!

          Subvert the dominant paradigm all you want, just don’t be disruptive.

      3. Southern Yankee*

        I’ve been on the wrong end of several vendor calls & webinars lately where someone was “architecting” the best solution. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!

        1. TechWorker*

          See I find it kinda funny this is considered business-babble because in my industry it means something fairly specific and it would be a totally fine thing to say :p

      4. Hold My Cosmo*

        Make the ask.

        “Can Fergus cover the late shift in Tuesday?” “I don’t know, I’ll make the ask.”

        So…you’ll ask?

      7. Anonybus*

        The specific business-speak at my workplace has produced the following result:

        I have come to loathe the words “strategic” and “engagement”.

    7. SarahKay*

      I have a friend who used to play what he called Bulls**t Bingo for this sort of thing. I gather his company was particularly keen on corporate speak (or, as he referred to it, “word Offal”) and he and a couple of co-workers made a game out of it. They’d each pick five phrases at the start of the week, and the first to ‘collect’ all five would be bought a coffee by the other two.
      Even if you don’t have like-minded friends could you do something similar to try and remove some of the irritation you’re feeling? Make bets with yourself on how soon “source of truth” will be heard, or how many times in a week, or how fast you can provoke someone into saying it.
      Good luck, and lots of sympathy!

    8. Dobermom*

      If you haven’t seen the video for “Weird Al” Yankovic’s song “Mission Statement,” I’d recommend checking it out on YouTube right now. It’s a song made up completely of corporate jargon. If you can get yourself in a mindset where you see how silly it is, it’s just kind of funny.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Well, I just had to check that out.
        He used a lot of words and said absolutely nothing. He made is point very well.
        Thanks for pointing this out.

    10. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Does he play Dungeons and Dragons or something? I’d start naming all office-related objects with this in mind.
      Source of Truth — Google
      Serum of Strength — Coffee
      Orb of illumination — Desk lamp
      Chest of Secrets — File cabinet
      Glass of looking — Window or mirror

      Fergus: “What’s your source of truth on this?”
      You: “I consulted the Chest of Secrets utilizing the Orb of Illumination. After many long Hours of Seeing, I needed an Elixir of Spirit, but finally I found the Source of Truth among the Weeds of Time.”

      Don’t do this, it’s terrible advice.

    11. Not So Little My*

      I tend to be a strong memetic transmitter so I pick up this language very easily (and without even noticing) when it’s all around me and I do repeat it. My spouse works in a different company in a different role in the same industry so sometimes we’ll catch each other when we use work-speak at home (especially if spouse’s work culture uses slightly different terms than mine). But I’m not really offended by people using it in the workplace, it’s just part of group cohesion and culture formation.

      1. Not So Little My*

        I do understand that these formations are linguistically ridiculous, often vague or meaningless, and possibly exclusionary of outsiders. And that corporations are full of people who want to sound important or smart or special instead of speaking clearly in a way that can be understood across the board. But I don’t really think there’s anything we can do about it except eyerolling or making bingo cards. Next year it’ll be some different terms – that’s how language in social groups works.

    12. Very anon for this one*

      Never heard that one either and YES it drove me crazy whenever people used corporate speak at Old Job.

      “Connect with” – why not just say email or call?

      “Take this offline” – but we aren’t getting disconnected from the internet?

    13. ..Kat..*

      I simply pretend that I am learning a foreign language. There will always be silly, stodgy catch phrases like this around.

    14. Jasnah*

      I hate this!! It is so hard for non-native speakers to understand, and you have to translate it into regular English first! “Impact investment to drive change, and drill down to engagement metrics”… my head is going to explode!

  31. What's with Today, today?*

    I’m the News Director for three radio stations in a rural area, but we have a website and facebook page that contains quite a bit of news in print. There are three TV stations about 50 miles away from us that “cover” our area.

    I wrote a long article the other day about some unusual alligator sitings inside our city limits, with quotes from our local Game Warden and one of the area TV stations copied and pasted it verbatim to their website and the byline was “staff reports.” I had to send the nice, but also to the point email that we needed to be credited. They can use it but dammit, give our station credit. Then two days later, a separate TV station aired video they pulled right off of our facebook page, and they had edited our logo off the video! That email wasn’t as nice. We have an official partnership with one TV station (not one of the two offenders), making it all the more aggravating. It’s Friday, right?

      1. WellRed*

        Actually, here’s a funny story. I had someone I needed to interview about an event she was chairing. She was impossible to pin down for a time, so though I don’t usually agree to this, I let her answer a bunch of emailed questions (Hey, it was just an event, not breaking news). Imagine my surprise when the same “interview” appeared in our competitor’s publication as well. They did nothing nefarious, in this case. It just didn’t occur to the subject that saying, “Oh, I’ll just conveniently forward my answers to WellRed to this other publication asking me for an interview.”

        1. What's with Today, today?*

          I can see this happening! Our largest competitor is the local paper (we’re competing for the same limited advertising dollars), and one of their reporters and I are friends and will do joint interviews at an event to save the interview subject time, but another of their reporters wants to be at least 100 yards away from me when she interviews. And that is fine, I get it! But I also think it’s funny.

    4. Plagiarism Sucks*

      Fellow local journalist here. Stuff like this happens to us all the time, I would even say every week. Our publisher always emails and politely asks they take it down or provide proper attribution, and 9 times out of 10 they do.

    6. MatKnifeNinja*

      People who do rip and read SUCK.

      That happens all the time in our local news area. Quite mining Facebook for your copy.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        I think they do it because we are small and they think we won’t notice. Is that your take?

        To the poster who asked what happens the other 1 time, in my experience they don’t respond at all, or say they’ll take it down/attribute but then don’t.

        1. What’s with Today, today?*

          That nested wrong, it should have gone to the comment above. But yes, egregious is the word. My mouth fell open. The program director blamed a new hire.

  32. Veronica Mars*

    Wondering what other’s thoughts are on something that has happened to me a few times recently. As part of my work, I sometimes facilitate meetings that involve people outside my company. At the end of one of these meetings, it’s not unusual for me to give my card to meeting participants so they can contact me if they have more information to share (and this is the explicit reason that I say to them for why I’m giving them my contact info). Several times recently someone has gone back to their office and added my email to their organization’s mailing list. This can result in an increase in as much as 2-3 emails per day per person who does this. I have never been asked if I’m OK being added to the mailing list. Sometimes the nature of the relationship makes it awkward for me to unsubscribe, so I usually just filter them to a designated folder and sort/delete once a week or so. But I have to admit it feels like a breach of protocol to take contact info given for a specific context and add it to a mailing list without permission. Is this just a thing that people do?

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Ha in Europe this would be illegal, but alas, the US is weird. Can you say something succinct like “If you need anything, here’s my card, but please only contact me about X.” Or even “I’d prefer if you didn’t add me to any mailing lists, but in case you need to contact me, here’s my card.”

    2. CatCat*

      I wonder if it’s how you’re phrasing it. If you’re telling them to contact you “if they have more information to share,” they may think that means you want to be added to mailing lists where information is shared.

      Maybe try something like, “Here’s my business card if you want to contact me directly in the future about X or Y.”

      1. Veronica Mars*

        No, it’s definitely not confusion. It’s explicitly stated that they’re getting the card to provide more info related to the meeting. I can’t get more specific without it being obvious what I do, but I can 100 percent rule out confusion.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Just unsubscribe — they can’t see that you’ve done that. In my industry it is super common to add all contacts to the email list — the “unsubscribe” button is there for a reason.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        These aren’t actually industry contacts. My firm is hired by clients to do work that sometimes involves facilitating meetings, so the people I’m talking to are in an entirely different industry than I am. And the people adding me to lists are aware of that. And unfortunately the optics are such that it would reflect badly on my client and then on my firm on the off chance someone did pick up on the unsubscribe. And some of the orgs are small enough that it’s not inconceivable that the person who added would notice, which is why I just send them to folder purgatory. It just seems like a strange thing to do, because I’m *not* in their industry and so won’t find their emails useful. I’m comfortable with how I’m handling it, but I am just wondering if it’s a common thing to do when someone gives you contact info for a specific, unrelated purpose.

        1. Gumby*

          I am on a mailing list for an industry I am not in, on a continent in which I do not live, because I once did some (long distance) freelance work for my friend’s aunt’s company in another country. So it’s not unheard of anyway.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or can you add to your card, “Unfortunately, because of the high volume of emails I receive, I have to unsubscribe to most email lists.”?

    5. MissDisplaced*

      It probably gets added to their database, and then marketing grabs it. The databases DO have a “do not email/call” fields, but that depends on whether or not the inputter checks them.
      I think your best bet is to unsubscribe from all mailing lists (and they should have that option or their acting spammy). Also leave a comment if they allow input on why you’re unsubscribing.

    6. Hamburke*

      I once tested out a CRM for a client. It was overwhelming what I had to do to get that out of my email! It’s been 8 months and I just got another email from that company asking how I like their product… so I’m thinking that anyone that gets added to these companies’ CRMs would likely get everything sent out by the company.

      On the flip side, OldJob was a marketing assistant for a small firm. I had to verify that every unsubscribe was actually done b/c the email marketing software was glitchy and sometimes people just reply to the email with “unsubscribe” in the body or subject line which didn’t do anything automatically. People get very angry about unsubscribing not being instantaneous.

    7. Someone Else*

      This is very common, but also not cool. I regularly attend a few conferences that specifically prohibit people doing this with info they get from the conference roster/meeting people as part of the event. So in my case, I could report it to the organizers. If it were really egregious (ie if several people all complained about the same org doing that), doing it could get orgs banned from these events (and thus it’s in their interest not to do it). I do know of at least two orgs did get banned for a few years due to this.
      I don’t know if there are similar avenues for you to pursue? If your company is the equivalent of the organizer a similar policy might help? Otherwise you just have my commiseration that this is a thing. It’s a crappy thing, but it’s a thing.

  33. Teapot Translator*

    I made an Ask-a-Manager inspired joke this week at work.

    I came back from vacation on Thursday and my boss asked me if I had a lot of emails to go through. I told him I’d resolved the problem by deleting them all. He was very amused.

    Anyone have advice on how to get back into the work groove after a vacation or do I just need to give it time?

    I find I’m more tired than during my vacation and I went hiking!

    1. sunshyne84*

      Do they read as well?
      I don’t think there’s any real way to get back in the groove, it just kind of happens.

  34. Larina*

    Recently, one of my colleagues missed a client facing webinar that she was supposed to put on. There was a bit of a mix up, and it wasn’t listed on the calendar we all use for client facing events, but she and I both receive emails (into a second outlook mailbox you have to scroll down a little to see) from the service we use whenever we have a scheduled webinar.

    And that same email inbox also gets emails whenever someone registers to attend the webinar. So that week, she got 2 emails about this client facing event, but still didn’t show up, so we had a client attend and then email us in confusion about how no one was there to do the session.

    The person who showed up also contacted their account manager, so some people in sales also know, but I am pretty sure our boss doesn’t know.

    I guess my question is, should I tell our boss about this? It feels like snitching (I know, bad choice of words), but I am frustrated she missed a client facing meeting that she was responsible for, and I’ve had to communicate with sales about her mess up. Should I let it go and let this be a learning experience for her? I just feel gross with either decision.

    1. Hillary*

      Tell your boss. Stick with facts, just say that your colleague missed the webinar and it wasn’t on the calendar. Don’t mention that they missed emails about it.

      Your boss would prefer to hear it from their team, they never want to hear something like first that from sales or account management.

      1. Psyche*

        I agree with this. Boss should know but casting blame will not help the situation. There was a mix up, she missed the meeting. Boss can take it from there.

      2. A Non E. Mouse*

        Your boss would prefer to hear it from their team

        My grandboss says “Good news fast, bad news faster”, and I think that’s just about right.

        Tell your boss, you can frame it in “the department got this complaint, this is what us looking into the root causes revealed…” way to make it feel less like snitching.

    3. Blue*

      Definitely tell her. I’m sure it would be much worse if boss catches wind of it from an outside team or a client. I don’t think I’d get into the details of everything leading up the webinar unless I was explicitly asked, since it’d be better for boss to talk to her about what went wrong.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Boss needs to know since a client was impacted. Stick to the facts and maybe come at it from a technical glitch problem due to it not going on the calendar and see if there is a better process.

  35. yams*

    Great news! We have finally completed a restructuring of all my job duties and I get all the boring stuff I hate doing taken off my plate. Not so great news, now I’m partly in charge of a commodity I know next to nothing about with challenges that are wildly different from what I’m used to. So now I’m stress eating some mysterious desk marzipan I found while cleaning my desk (it’s my predecessor’s, I have been in this position 8 months so this might actually not be a good idea but the vending machines are empty).

  36. mf*

    Is it obnoxious to correct people when you’re not properly credited for your work?

    I’m youngish woman in a white-collar job who was recently promoted to a more specialized role. I worked with a team on a project, and I feel like several times I have not been credited properly for my role in the project. One person gave me credit for working with a male coworker on writing a document. (Totally incorrect. I wrote 98%. He gave me feedback.) Another coworker credited me as the “editor.” (Also incorrect. I did edit the work, but I also wrote and created it from scratch.)

    This really bothers me a lot as I feel like my role in this project is being undersold. How can I speak up about this?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Some people who are sexist may read it as “obnoxious,” but I think you’re just looking out for yourself. And if a male co-worker did the same, I doubt he’d get as much pushback. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. You should. That said, expect pushback. Expect for people to judge you more harshly for sticking up for yourself.

      It may help if you have any allies who can stick up for you, too—people who know how much you did for a particular project and can say “Actually, mf did the bulk of the work on that, and she did amazing work on it,” especially if the ally is a higher-up of some kind.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Who are the ones mis-crediting you? This is shady, and you’re correct to demand they recognize your work properly.

      1. mf*

        One is a female coworker, the other is a male manager (I work with him but he’s not my manager). I think they both mean well–they just aren’t aware or any thinking of the role I played in this project. Also worth noting: the female coworker called me the “editor” of the project on an email to Senior Leadership, so that’s extra concerning.

        I have a really good relationship with the male manager. I’m thinking of mentioning this to him as sort of a “hey, this isn’t a huge deal, but it’s bothering me because I want to be sure I have the opportunity to work on projects like this in the future.” Plus as a manager, he’s more likely to understand the ramifications of not giving an employee proper credit.

        1. Ali G*

          I’m side-eyeing those people who are OK taking the credit for your work! Anytime someone tries to give me all the credit for something that was not 100% me, I always jump in and credit the other people for their efforts.
          Is there a way you can subtly respond to drive home your role? I’m thinking: “Thanks Jane. Yes Tom’s input on the X Report was helpful for me to make sure the statistics were correct in Section 2.”

        2. Moonbeam Malone*

          Honestly, if you’re concerned about optics you can also frame it as not wanting to dodge accountability if there’s anything wrong. There are a bunch of reasons why it’s good for everyone if you’re properly credited! Please, bring it up. It can be a little awkward when it’s something like that e-mail, but even then you might reply-all with a quick, “To clarify, I created this document as well as edited it, so please let me know if you have any questions or concerns!”

    3. Lilysparrow*

      “Actually, I wrote it. He edited it.”

      Unless he is your boss and providing drafts for his work-product is part of your job duties. Then you just make sure he knows that your work is being complimented, so he can properly assess your value at review time.

      In the situation with the manager undercutting your credit in the email to Senior Mgt, I think you should go see her privately and mention something along the lines of: “I was concerned about the way my role here was presented to Senior Mgt. Fergus didn’t author that report, I did, and he gave me feedback. I’d like to grow in this role, so it’s important that my contributions are visible to management. I’m sure you understand that.”

      1. mf*

        The woman who wrote the email to senior management is a coworker who’s NOT a manager. But I am thinking forwarding her email to the male manager I mentioned (this male manager is the female coworker’s boss–I work with both of them but report to a different person). I might use a modified version of your script:

        “Just wanted to flag this for you. I noticed that Leia called me the editor for this project in her email to senior management, and I’ve heard a couple of other people say something similar. I actually wrote this project myself; most of the content is mine with a minor amount of input and editing from Fergus. Not a big deal, but I wanted to make sure you knew because I’d like to grow in this role, so it’s important that my contributions are visible to management. Thanks!”

        2. TechWorker*

          I would be tempted to go short and sweet:

          Just to prevent any confusion going forwards; I wrote this report and Fergus edited, rather than the other way around.

          Thanks!
          mf

    4. The Rat Catcher*

      I had this come up recently! I wrote a doc explaining a complex policy that is becoming a statewide reference. I was on a call where it was mentioned and my two co-workers in my unit asked who wrote it! (They were the first ones I sent it to when it was completed.) I went with a very blunt “Hi, this is Rat Catcher and I created that doc. I can send it to you again!” It can be a bit harder on email, but I’ve done that too.

  37. JustaTech*

    I had my performance review yesterday and it was … frustrating.

    The actual review of my performance was really good. My boss is super pleased with the work I did last year, taking charge of several big projects.

    The frustrating bits are twofold.

    First, I only got a “solid” rating, rather than “strong”, most likely because our corporate overlords think that everyone should fit a normal distribution (and actually were mad at our CEO that there weren’t *more* people ranked as “needs improvement”. So that’s annoying.

    The second, bigger thing is that I didn’t get the promotion my boss had pushed for me to get. With no explanation of why I didn’t get it, what I should have done better (or more) or anything.

    And that’s really the frustrating thing. Like, how can I improve if you don’t tell me what more you want from me? Do I need to run three big projects rather than two? Are all those huge support jobs I took on not counted (likely, and possibly sexist, but I don’t know)? Am I too far removed from the people who make the decisions? Is that one boss acting as some kind of forgetful filter?

    Oh, and my boss technically wasn’t supposed to tell me this yet (not for another month) so I can’t actually ask any of the bosses now.

    It’s pretty demoralizing. Like, if me busting my hump is rated the exact same as Slacker Jones over there, then why am I working so hard? If there’s a person in the decision chain who literally forgets I exist, why make a fuss? Why stick my neck out and tell people they’re wrong (like pi=3.0 wrong) if there’s no benefit?

    In a couple of months (after I should have gotten this review) I’ll ask the big bosses what they want and present them with some more stretch projects (that they’ll probably shoot down but at least I will have tried), but right now I’m frankly pissed off.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh, this sounds like a typical bad system for employee reviews. On the other hand, your boss really needed to go to bat for you if they really wanted to get you promoted, and give you the highest rating – who on the team did she rank the highest, if not the person who she theoretically needs to get promoted?? Is she maybe giving you a little bit of the double-talk, where it’s not “her” fault but the fault of absent other people?

      Honestly, if you believe you’re worth more and could be doing higher-level work, this is exactly the reason people job search. There’s too much inertia within some companies and it’s too easy to keep people where they are.

    2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      We have the same thing here. Scale goes 1-5, with 5 being the highest rating. Managers are “not allowed” to give anyone 5s and only a set number of 4s per employee. (I think they’re allowed to give four ratings above average, out of 28 metrics to be rated) Because “there’s always room for improvement”
      It’s such BS. Employees who work their butts off and get stuff DONE have no hope of anything better than a mediocre rating. Good luck getting a merit raise with a mediocre review, too.
      We also have to set goals at our reviews. Last year my big assigned project for the year was canceled from on high with no notice or explanation very early in the year. We were about 2 weeks in, so hadn’t done much. My duties were shuffled to another project, and when the project lead left I was asked to step up. I made a big positive difference in the new project, and yet at my annual review I was penalized for not meeting any of the goals on the original project. Because we are not allowed to change goals mid year. No raise for me this year…

      1. n*

        I think my company uses a very similar system. But I naively did not know that at my first performance review, so I was absolutely deflated to get a bunch of threes, when it felt like I tried my hardest.

        It’s such a demoralizing system and I do not understand why companies do this (other than, you know, evil reasons like never having to give promotions or raises). It almost ensures constant turnover after 1-2 years of employment.

      2. Narvo Flieboppen*

        That sucks. For all the other issues I currently have, at the last meeting when upper management specified me by name as having failed to complete my major goal for last year, my direct manager stepped in to point out all the funding was pulled and the project was cancelled 2 months before I was supposed to start on it. But it still really galls me that it is credited as ‘my’ failure when the person blaming me is the one who reallocated the funding to a different project.

        Reason #1037 why this place is covered in bees.

      3. starsaphire*

        A manager friend of mine quit her job over this BS at a big company a few years back.

        She was told:
        * You can’t give any 5s but you can give 1s
        * You have (say, 20) team members which means you can only give up to four 4s
        * All the rest have to be 2s or 3s
        * You will be disciplined if you try to subvert this in any way

    3. CatCat*

      That sounds super frustrating. Can’t hurt to look for higher level positions elsewhere. If your boss/company don’t force people out for looking for opportunities to move up outside the company, you could have a candid conversation with your boss about this.

    4. Mike C.*

      Why do HR departments insist on a normal distribution when it comes to performance ratings?

      They don’t hire on a normal distribution.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        +1,000

        Of course our employees are better than average, we try to only hire the best people, right?

      2. only acting normal*

        Management that insists on each and every team, no matter how small, fitting the same normal curve do not understand how statistics work. If they left well alone you can almost guarantee the curve for the whole organisation would come out a perfect bell shape (because that *is* how stats work)!

    5. Alex*

      It is unfortunate that your situation is really common. I was the exact same situation at my job–no promotion even though my boss admitted I deserved one. Our performance reviews were also SUPPOSED to fit a normal distribution, but what actually happened was that the differences they were willing to give were so minuscule, the worst performers would get a few cents less than the top performers.

      I calculated that the difference between bust-your-hump performance and watch-cat-memes-all-day performance would amount to about $6 a week difference in my case.

      What worked was me getting an outside offer and using it as leverage. Boy did that promotion materialize quickly for me then (but not for others who also deserve it).

      Sorry you’re in that situation. It’s crappy. Start job hunting.

  38. Coffee geek*

    My office uses a Keurig machine that I don’t like to use for several reasons: It’s wasteful, I don’t believe it ever gets cleaned (which, gross), and the coffee’s not even that good. I brought in a small pourover setup to use at my desk instead — I grind beans at home, bring them in in a small container, and use a thermos for hot water. The pourover goes on top of my mug. My coffee is MUCH better and cleanup is a breeze with a filter.

    My question is, really, how annoying to my coworkers am I? No one can see me at my desk, but I’m in a cube farm, so my neighbors can probably hear my water being poured and smell my coffee as it’s brewing. I’m close to the kitchen, so food smells aren’t so unusual. No one’s said anything, but I want to be considerate. Should I rethink my setup? Do other people do this? I’m definitely the only one here who does.

    1. Rey*

      I don’t even drink coffee, and I think this sounds perfectly normal. And it sounds like if someone did comment, you would move it to the kitchen, so no worries.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      It wouldn’t annoy me at all. I’m not sure you need to say anything unless people are shooting you dirty looks or are saying something.

    4. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      I don’t think you need to worry about the sound of water pouring as much as the smell of the coffee. I don’t know how open your kitchen is to the cubicle area but even a standard doorway can usually keep smells mostly confined to the kitchen IME. Brewing coffee outside of that area is probably much more potent than if it were done in the kitchen.

      I personally wouldn’t have a problem with your decision to not use the Keurig but that’s probably more of a know-your-coworkers thing…

    6. merp*

      Maybe others would feel differently but my cube neighbor does this frequently and it’s not any bother at all. I wouldn’t worry too much.

    7. CatCat*

      I wouldn’t think it’s a big deal, but you can always ask. “Hey neighbors, does the sound of me making coffee or the scent of the coffee bug you?” If so, then you can switch to doing it in the kitchen.

      You sound like a considerate and conscientious cube neighbor.

      1. Annie Moose*

        This is what I was thinking. Ask around, and if it does bother someone, just carry the fixins to the kitchen, make the pourover, and bring it back. If it’s a pain to carry all the accoutrements to the kitchen, you could always get a little basket or box to transport them in.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I had to look this up. I have a teapot like this.

      I don’t think I’d have a problem with it–brewing coffee smells nice. It’s not like microwave popcorn or anything. You could ask if it’s bothering anyone, but if they say no, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

      1. A tester, not a developer*

        I had a co-worker who was brewing coffee with a distinctly skunky aroma at their desk. I don’t know if it was a bad batch of beans or what, but it was unpleasant for a couple of months.

    9. Shark Whisperer*

      I work at a government office that doesn’t supply coffee, so tons of people in my cube farm have setups like yours. I don’t think it’s at all unusual or annoying. I brew smelly tea with a similar set up to yours. No one has ever commented (except occasionally to say my tea smells good when they come into my cube to ask me something).

      1. Windchime*

        Same here. Most people use the office Keurigs, but I’ve seen several people making the coffee as you describe and nobody blinks an eye at it.

    10. Muriel Heslop*

      I work in a school and a few departments have Keurigs (for which teachers supply their own K cups). I’ve noticed more people over the last few years using pour overs. It makes tons of sense and I cannot imagine why anyone would be bothered by it.

    11. Former Retail Manager*

      I don’t think you’re annoying at all. Different strokes and all. We have a guy in our office that makes coffee in a unique way (I have no idea what it is, but it sounds similar to yours). I think you’re fine. And I also hate Keurig’s for all the same reasons you do. And most of them only make cups that are 8-12 ounces. Who drinks a cup of coffee that small? I have like a big a$$ 20 ounce cup that I refill multiple times per day.

    12. Parenthetically*

      My only issue would be how delicious a fresh pourover smells — I’d be wafting over to your cube like Toucan Sam! Nothing to worry about, IMO. :)

    13. epi*

      Not annoying.

      I use a similar setup for coffee at work. I get comments on it, but only to ask me if it’s better (yes) or tell me they have the same thing at home.

      Pouring water is not loud. Coffee is a work smell. It’s no more intrusive or annoying to brew it than to drink it.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re fine! I’m sad you’re worried about it…that’s over the top. We have conditioned too many people to worry over things like “is it annoying to make coffee at my desk?”

      If you were grinding at your desk, that’s obviously obnoxious. They smell coffee all the time. You could be pouring from a thermos into a cup for all they know.

    15. iglwif*

      That sounds fine to me. That said, I love the smell of coffee, and there are people who don’t! The only part that seems like it might be a problem (IMO) is if you’re throwing coffee grounds and filters in the garbage under your desk and the garbage isn’t emptied every day. Fresh coffee smells lovely; stale coffee grounds smell … not lovely.

      But I would say if you’re really worried, move the pouring-over part to the kitchen area and bring everything back to your cube when you’re done.

    16. Admin of Sys*

      I do that too, and all my coworkers are fine with it. I do occasionally offer coffee to folks if they talk about how good it smells though. :)

  39. Tathren*

    Thank you to everyone who replied to my question last week looking for advice on a job offer with what seemed like stingy PTO benefits. I ended up accepting the offer, and have a follow-up question now.

    I accepted the offer on Wednesday (they wanted to meet in person to discuss things, so even though I had the offer last week there was a delay in “officially” accepting). When discussing when my first day would be we agreed on roughly three weeks out, but they told me to take a day to think it over and then get back to them.

    I emailed them yesterday morning (a day after our meeting) to confirm that my start date would be in three weeks, and I asked them to confirm that that would still work with their needs. I haven’t gotten a response to that email yet, and I’m wondering how long I should wait before reaching out again.

    I’m not worried that they’re going to pull the offer or anything, but I do want confirmation of an official start date before I give my notice at my current job so I am a bit anxious to hear back from them. Is it reasonable to reach out today, or should I wait until Monday (or later?) to contact them again?

      1. AnitaJ*

        Agreed with Dr. Wizard–I think waiting until Monday is fine. They are probably backed up with any manner of other unrelated things. Good luck and congrats!

        1. Tathren*

          Thank you both! I’ll wait until Monday before following-up (no matter how impatient I get over the weekend)!

      1. ..Kat..*

        Sometimes emails go to spam folders. I would not assume. But, I am used to the universe conspiring against me =)

  40. Anon for this one*

    Going anon for this-I recently found a very promising job lead. I applied via the online system with my resume but their is no place to attach a cover letter. Should I include it with the resume in one attachment or just email a copy to HR?

    1. Book Page*

      Include it with your resume in a single document. The workplace I used to work in did that and my boss recommended it when I applied for a promotion.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        I do this too–just make it as one document. If you go into an application system and it does offer a space for a separate cover letter, then you can remove the resume part before uploading.

        I always save the Word document in case I need to do this or if I want to use it as a template for the next one, since I have the resume part formatted differently.

    2. senior jobseeker*

      Some employers explicitly do not ask cover letters as they think that it is nonsense, usually fake.
      They may ask your motivation later, but at this moment they evidently want to check that you have some special skill that they need, whether it was mentioned in the announcement or not.
      At least I do not add cover letter when not requested.

  41. Book Page*

    Ok, so something has happened twice in the past two weeks and I’m trying to understand if this is me getting riled up because of anxiety/I don’t understand certain types of sarcasm, and really what to do next.

    My coworker has recently been saying “I hope I don’t see you tomorrow” as a way of saying “I hope we are not here tomorrow because of weather events.” She only says it to me and has a track record of not being very nice to me. Do I just ignore it? I mean, I don’t particularly want to see her every day, either, but I’m not saying anything about it. Also, she said it once only in front of me, and this past Tuesday it was only to me.

    Also, she and another coworker have been harping on my food intolerances in a sarcastic (I think?) way, where one was asking what I couldn’t eat, then was like, “oh, I was asking what you could eat”. And then was harping on the actual intolerances. That I’ve told them that I have. Repeatedly. For three years. The next day I literally was very sick in the bathroom due to what I think was an intolerance reaction.

    What do I do about this? Am I interpreting properly that these comments have been meant to provoke me, or am I allowing my anxiety brain to worry too much?

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      It sounds like she’s being mildly mean to entertain herself, and possibly because she enjoys provoking a reaction in you.

      I’d chalk it up to a continued pattern of ‘not being a very nice person to me’ (and quite likely in general) and not worry at all that you’ve done anything to ‘deserve’ or incite them. It’s all about her, not you.

    2. MeMeMe*

      Them: “I hope I don’t see you tomorrow”
      You: “Ha ha, same! Or ever again! Stay safe out there!”
      ******
      Them: “What CAN you eat, then?!”
      You: “Everything else! So, did you hear it might snow tomorrow?”
      *****
      Them: [Mean-spirited question of any kind]
      You: [Vague answer, cheerfully delivered. Change of subject.]

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        This is 100% the route I would go. If they are deliberately being mean, chiding or a serious conversation about it is just going to make them dig in their heels. Deliberately ignoring the passive-aggressive subtext and replying with a big, fat smile, however, will drive them up the wall.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        Yep. If they are just generally insensitive without specific mean intent, they won’t change much but by changing the subject and acting positive you will feel more in control of the situation and it will help gradually alter the way you see this.

        If they are intentionally trying to needle you, this method will cause them to try harder for a short time. Keep at it, that is the extinction burst.

        Your cheerfulness & confidence (even if fake) will make them look & feel foolish. They will quickly tire of a boring game that makes them look dumb.

    3. I See Real People*

      Next time, get a “mom” look on your face and tell them in a “mom voice” that it’s none of their business. And then never respond to their tauntings again. Only respond when they’re talking about direct work. That should keep them from coming back for more. Your response to their personal inquiries is what keeps them thinking they can get to you. Don’t engage with them on personal stuff.

    4. fposte*

      Sounds like you’re not on comfortable terms with your co-workers; I’m sorry, as that can make work hard.

      On the first, I’m trying to parse a few things here–how do you know she’s referring to the weather, and when you say “once only in front of me” and then another time “only to me” do you mean she’s only said it twice, and once was in front of other people? It ultimately probably doesn’t make much difference whether she’s being generally sour, badly witty, or kind of mean, in that you can have a response that is fine in all cases. You can say “Uh–thanks, I guess, you too???” You can say “Yeah, it’d be nice to have a day away from work.” Basically, you either engage with the sentiment she should be expressing and move on, or you engage with some slight puzzlement at the unfortunate expression, and move on.

      On the food intolerance thing–it could be mean. But it also sound like your food intolerances have become fair conversational game over the years (“That I’ve told them that I have. Repeatedly. For three years” is a *lot* of talk about food intolerances) and it’s time for you to start breaking their habit there. If they ask you again about intolerances, don’t go into it. “I’ve decided I give food stuff too much mental space, and that I’d rather talk about other things at work. So how’s your adorable niece/sportsball team doing?” In general, just because they ask you about something doesn’t mean you have to talk about it–redirect to something you know they like to talk about instead. Conversation doesn’t have to be something that just happens to you–you can direct it too.

      1. Book Page*

        I try to avoid food, but it’s hard because it has become a running thing to offer me food I can’t eat. I say I can’t eat it and go back to my work. Then I get “but why?” I think I’m just getting tired of saying “thanks for the offer, but I can’t” over and over. Most of them have figured it out and are fine, but this one person will not let it go, and will even just talk over me to ask someone else what I can’t eat. I’ve used all the tactics I know — I’ve left the room, even. I have a parent who has disordered eating that she pushed on us, so I really, really hate talking about food.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, so that sounds like it’s really just a problem with one person. “Jane, we’ve been over this, and I don’t get why this is important to you. Can you explain?”

        2. LilySparrow*

          I’d even quit saying “I can’t.” Just
          “No thanks.”
          “But why?”
          “No thanks, I’m good.” (Change subject or immediately go back to doing something else).
          “But why?” (Surely this person and everyone around realizes how ridiculous they are being at this point.)
          “Because I don’t want any.”
          And if they keep at it, “It’s really weird that this is so important to you.”

          And don’t wait for an answer. Change the subject, talk to someone else, or ignore them and go back to work.

    5. Dame Judi Brunch*

      It sounds like they are mean girls and you’re interpreting this right.
      Ugh why do people feel the need to act like this as grown adults?
      If I were dealing with this, I’d just be pleasant as much as possible and also not give them personal info. They’ll just use it against you.
      To the weather thing, I’d say “Drive safe!”
      As for the food, I wouldn’t eat anything from them and ignore them otherwise. Clearly they do not care about your health and think it’s a joke. People like that drive me crazy.

    6. WellRed*

      The weather-related comment I’d just ignore, a la “someone’s got a case of the Mondays.”
      Stop talking to them about food.

    7. Red5*

      Wait a sec…when you said, “The next day I literally was very sick in the bathroom due to what I think was an intolerance reaction.” does that mean you ate something they brought in and then got sick? If so, I think this is the most serious issue and you should pass on any “treat” offerings they bring in. I’d just ignore the rest (though I love MeMeMe’s response suggestions).

      1. Book Page*

        No, it was just unfortunate timing. The reason why I get these questions is people keep offering food, I politely decline, and they want to know why. I try to change the subject/turn back to my work, they keep asking or turn to my colleagues to ask *them* what I don’t eat. Food intolerance etiquette is, um, not great (just ask my dad’s girlfriend, who also conveniently doesn’t know what I can’t eat and asks me every time I see her… weekly… for the last three years or my dad who just chooses not to care and then get upset when I get sick).

        1. WellRed*

          Food pushers, ugh! If you haven’t already, try following up your polite refusal with, “Not hungry thanks!” “No, really, all set!” “Saving my appetite for lunch” “Looks wonderful, though.” Whatever makes the most sense for you.

        2. MeMeMe*

          Okay, these people are weirdos. If you have tried the “vague, cheerful answers” approach for a while and it doesn’t work, you have a random internet stranger’s blessing to say (in the most compassionate tone you can muster), “Is everything okay with you? You seem to be overly concerned with my digestive health and it’s honestly a little strange. Are you having health issues yourself that you’re afraid to talk about?”

          To your dad’s girlfriend, I would also ask her if she’s noticed that she’s been having memory lapses, because she’s asked you the same questions dozens of times and never remembers your answers.

    8. ..Kat..*

      For the “I hope I don’t see you tomorrow.” You could reply “what do you mean by that?” or “why would you say that?”

      For the food intolerances, “don’t worry about it. I have it under control.” For your being exposed, do you think one of them spiked your food with something that you cannot eat? Guard your food. You can even get a locking tackle box that you keep under your desk if you have to.

      1. Book Page*

        I was exposed by a restaurant the previous week, and I don’t worry about them spiking my food. Honestly when I think about it, this person is just kinda clueless and likes to get a rise out of people. She also uses this tactic to get out of assignments to get them to do it for her (feigned cluelessness).

  42. Jimmy Crack Corn*

    Rude or not rude:

    I told a client, Jane, to email our general box if they had any issues. That way work is distributed fairly amongst our team. Today I get an email from Bob saying Jane told him to email me directly to help them on issue X.

    “Hi Bob. Please see the attached document (resolving issue X). Blah blah blah extra stuff. Please send any future requests directly to (general email box). Thank you.”

    That’s fine, right? It’s just direct, not harsh?

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Not only fine, I would have been more direct and started with “In the future, please send requests directly to (general email box). As an exception, to our general process, I have attached document (resolving issue X). Blah blah blah extra stuff. Thank you.”

    3. SarahKay*

      Perfectly reasonable and very sensible. What’re Bob and Jane going to do if they only email you and you’re out of work, in the Bahamas, celebrating your huge lottery win? (Or, you know, off sick, on leave, virus ate your in-box, etc.)

    5. TechWorker*

      I do this all the time and I normally put it at the start to make sure it’s read! (I also add the email alias to the thread, though you might care less about that depending on context – for us it’s useful to have a shared record of all the issues coming in!)
      Eg:
      As a general reminder please remember to direct requests to ‘shared mailbox’ for the fastest response!

      Then go on to address their question.

      I don’t think it’s passive aggressive… no-ones minded so far!

    6. MoopySwarpet*

      We have several general boxes and I always respond “please send all future inquiries to the general box (copied here) for fastest processing” and depending on if I am the one who should respond, I respond. If I’m not, I’ve copied the people who should be and either way, the whole team is now in the loop.

  43. Sick&Tired*

    My coworkers called me while I was out for surgery for the most inane things (think how to I find this file when there is a 1 page documents with pictures showing it). I was polite but clear that they needed to escalate stuff like this to their boss before contacting me as I am out for health reasons. However there was a true emergency a few days later and no one called me! They tried to fix it themselves and have created a huge mess. I checked and they did not check with their boss either.

    This is not the first time I have had the issue of people calling me for minor items but not for emergencies. How can I address this? It seems obvious to me but apparently – where is your document on lama grooming is an emergency to them but the entire lama system is down and only you can fix it is a wing it situation!

    1. fposte*

      I’d talk to the boss–when to contact people out for surgery should be a boss-level awareness thing anyway.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        I can totally see co-workers doing this. If it is a really small thing, they would think it is OK to bother you because it won’t take up too much of your time or worry you. On the other hand, if it is a big emergency thing, then they don’t want to bother you because you are on sick leave.

        Yes, this probably doesn’t make any sense to most of us, but I can see it from your co-workers perspective.

    2. sunshyne84*

      Talk to their boss and have them make it clear you are not to be contacted when you are out and what document they need to refer to for basic things.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I literally walked out of a job for this BS. Tell your boss and make them deal with it.

    5. TechWorker*

      Yeah this is weird. Assuming their boss is even a little available it seems reasonable for it to go up the chain before the decision to contact someone out sick is taken. (I mean I’m sure there’s places this wouldn’t be necessary but it sounds like they don’t have good judgement..)

  44. Advice for remote position?*

    I’m considering a fully-remote position, which would be new to me and new to this role (but not the organization). What do others who are in remote roles wish they’d known before they started? What should I be considering in evaluating the offer, or asking for (beyond the stuff I’d be concerned about in a typical role!)?

    1. PersistentCat*

      Caveat: My advice is what works for me, and may be too much for other folks. ymmv

      I would recommend having strict “core hours” in which you are fully dressed, including shoes (house-only shoes that aren’t slippers if you’re a no-shoes household), caffeinated, and have your tv/cellphone/not work stuff on silent or off. I don’t count music with that, but if it’s a distracter for you, remove it from your (ideally dedicated) work space. Only reason I say this is because without those core hours, my times started to vary pretty intensely, though I always met my deadlines, and some of my coworkers were peeved by the lack of routine, which was frustrating for me, because all deadlines WERE met, nothing urgent wasn’t responded too (and often responded within an half hour of receipt), and I was always available by phone. So. Core hours. They weren’t the full 8, or else I’d be working 24/7, but they were a 4 hour block in which everyone KNEW I was online/could take calls/etc. Conference calls with outside clients and the like were scheduled OUTSIDE these core hours (cause my coworkers were weiiirrrd).
      Plus I found being fully dressed helped me stay on task and professional, even if I was sitting cozy on the couch.
      Hope this helps?

    2. Elizabeth West*

      If you can, separate your working space from your lounging/off-hours space. Even if it’s only a table in another room where you carry your laptop, when the workday is over, this makes it much easier to disconnect.

      If it wasn’t already made evident, I’d want to know if they will provide equipment (laptop, headset, password fob if you have to log into their systems, etc.) and how to handle any tech issues if they do. Also, some companies have restrictions on what you can do during remote working hours–for example, Exjob required remote workers to have childcare.

      For a bring-your-own-device workplace, make sure you understand their policies re wiping a phone or laptop in case it’s lost or stolen, or if you leave the job.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      From a former full-time remote worker (who hated it):

      – How will you and your boss communicate? How about the rest of the team? (Scheduled check-ins, IM/chat, email, etc.)
      – How available is your boss/the rest of the team? It can be a BIG bummer to never have casual “stopped by your office” access to your boss, if they’re 1000 miles away and in meetings all the time.
      – How do you like to receive feedback, and how much feedback do you prefer to get? Will you be able to get that kind of feedback remotely? It can be a weird transition that all feedback conversations are by necessity scheduled and more formal feeling. You’ll never get the “Hey, let’s debrief that meeting as we walk back to our desks” kind of feedback, which means it can feel like A Thing when it’s an agenda item in your next check-in instead.
      – Will you struggle with not being able to read your boss’ tone or body language? Some folks won’t care, and others will be sent into a spiral of anxiety.
      – How will you build relationships with your boss/the rest of the team? It took me MUCH longer to get into a happy rhythm with my colleagues when we didn’t have any of the small social interactions at the coffeemaker/before meetings/over the cube wall/etc. to build on.
      – Is the rest of the team also remote? If not, how will they make sure that you’re not out of the loop? If you’re the only remote person, the rest of the team can have a tendency to overlook you (or think of you last) for things like promotions, project assignments, etc.

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I am 2 weeks into a fully remote job and absolutely loving it. I find I’m very productive, and can still take care of things like stepping out to run an errand or 2, or keep the laundry moving along (although the actual folding and putting away is done later).

      The secret for me is getting up each morning, taking a shower, putting on some basic makeup, drying my hair, and getting dressed in clothes I’d wear to a casual office (jeans, sweaters, etc…no sweats or yoga pants), and shoes, like PersistentCat mentions below. For some reason, wearing shoes really helps get me in a work mindset. Then it feels more like I’m “going to work” than just sauntering over to my desk to maybe surf the internet.

      A really good friend of mine also works remotely, and she makes herself get out of the house for a little while each day, even if it’s just for a few minutes. Sometimes all she does is drop her kid off at school and go home again, but she’s out of the house.

      Spend the money on a nice, comfy office chair. It will make all the difference. Also, I have a really nice setup with 2 big monitors and my laptop as a 3rd, and it’s great. I would think a company hiring remote workers would work with you on what equipment you’ll need, but if you’d like another big monitor, go ahead and just buy one. It’s well worth the money and not hugely expensive.

      Make sure that the company has decent tech support for when you run into issues. I had one job where tech support was pretty much me and Google.

    5. iglwif*

      I love working at home but I reeeaaalllly wish I had some way of setting up a dedicated office space in my apartment! If there’s any way you can do that, do.

      For me personally, one of the perks of working at home is not having to dress up, but I’ve also found it important NOT to try and work in my pyjamas! YMMV, but (a) getting dressed helps me transition from “off” to “on” in the morning, and (b) should I unexpectedly have to take a call that isn’t audio-only, I’ll at least have clothes on.

      I worked in an office for many many years, and one thing I did like about that was the clear transition from home to work and back again. So to kind of mimic that, I eat my breakfast and make my coffee before I start my working hours, and immediately after I shut my laptop for the day, I go and do something really domestic, like snuggling on the sofa with the dog. (I work in the kitchen, so part of my end-of-workday routine is *leaving* the kitchen, at least for a few minutes, and putting away my computer. If I had an office or office area, I would leave it and shut the door.)

      Try and find out what equipment, etc., they typically cover for a remote position–presumably they’ll give you a laptop, but will they also give you / cover your purchase of peripherals like an ergonomic mouse or a good headset for conference calls? Any chance they might get you a desk or a chair? Etc.

      Are you in the same time zone as the main office? If not, what are the expectations around “core hours”?

      Will you be expected to come to team meetings or other events? If so, how often?

      How do people working remotely for this company normally communicate? Is there a slack, do they use Skype messaging or something, etc. Ask about how they make sure the remote folks aren’t isolated from the in-office folks.

    6. OP*

      Thanks so much! This is really helpful– some of this I’d asked about already, but this gives me a lot to think about and some new questions to follow up with.

  45. Medical Device Remote Jobs - Europe?*

    I work for a large and well known medical device company. In 4-5 years I will be looking to move to Europe (particularly Portugal) and would like to find a job within an EMEA division of a medical device company that allows remote work (for example, office hub is in Brussels or London but allows remote work with travel to the main hub). My experience is is in Contracts/Compliance/supporting sales teams within the Vascular/Cardiac Rhythm Management/Electrophysiology divisions.

    Anyone know of any medical device companies that have these types of remote jobs in EMEA? I will also be looking within my current company but there aren’t too many opportunities that pop up and I’d like to have a good list going so when the time comes, I’m ready. If it matters, I speak both Spanish and Portuguese.

    Thank you!

  46. job hopping thoughts*

    Anyone else ever feel like you’re capable of so much more than you’re assigned, and you don’t want to have to sit through years of not being considered qualified to do certain things?

    Like they always say that you should wait a couple of years “mastering” your current role before asking for more responsibility or a promotion or a raise, but what if your role is so easy that mastery feels like tedium? Like constantly bumping your head on a ceiling instead of being able to grow?

    I was prepared to deal with my job and my lack of challenges for at least another 6 months so as not to be a job hopper, but a company reached out to me and asked me to apply for a position there, a step up in pay and responsibility, and I did. Now they’re checking references, and all of a sudden I feel like I need to get out of here! Somehow my job feels even more limiting now that I’m comparing it to other possibilities.

    If they make me a good offer, I’ll take it. I may be a “job hopper” by standard definition if I do leave, but isn’t that an understandable choice when the last couple of jobs I’ve had I’ve overachieved while being underpaid and underestimated?

    Why is it seen as more important to be loyal than to be dedicated to growing?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Are you early in your career? I don’t think job hopper applies to recent grads, it’s SO common for them to have a few one or two year jobs. Six months is very short, but if you’ve been recruited, well obviously being a job hopper hasn’t hurt you in their eyes.

    2. irene adler*

      It’s not. Those that do place loyalty over growing aren’t going to value employees who can take a role, make it their own and bring new skills to the table. They don’t see beyond the surface. Such is the curse of the overachiever.

      You can show, by way of the expanded job duties with the new job, that you took the new job to “grow” your skills as you have reached the limit on growth at your current job. The job hopper most likely can’t demonstrate that.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Job hopping isn’t an issue when you’re being recruited either! They reached out and are trying to poach you.

      Job hopping is similar jobs within a short period of time. Then you look unsteady in what you want. Growth opportunity is always a good reason to leave a job.

      Now if you’re doing entry level work. Then move to another entry level in six months. Then move again for another entry level. That’s a few flags being thrown.

      Also growth opportunities depend drastically on your career path. Mine exploded. I went from Accounting Clerk for 3 months to full cycle bookkeeping after a supervisor realized I had untapped abilities. Then I shot up to business/ops manager in my next job within a year. As my boss saw me quickly clicking along for each “do you mind doing this now?” and by then I didn’t wait to request more things.

      Now I’ll swoop in be in charge of something and I’ll start picking up loose ends where I see them. “You want me to do that for you?” snatching things off my bosses plate when necessary.

      But. I’m a small business person. I’m talking to owners as my bosses. They fall over themselves with my abilities and drive to do whatever.

      Other careers and larger companies don’t fit for me. They are the ones with weird unwritten rules about how long to grind until promoting and giving raises etc. Less room to just roll in ready to take on the world around you.

    4. ChachkisGalore*

      I so identify with this. I graduated into the recession and bounced around in some administrative/temp work for the first couple of years, leveraged that experience into full time admin work. After a couple of steady years of admin work (and with the economy recovering) I decided to really try to get my desired career on track, but it was incredibly frustrating to be competing with recent grads who kept getting hired over me because they had one career related internship, while I had 6-7 years of corporate, working world experience (same industry, just as an admin). I wasn’t trying to go for roles in my career path that required 6-7 years of experience (thinking that my past experience was totally transferable), I was going for roles that were entry level or asked for 1-3 years of experience (for the record – the work I was getting into is pretty administrative in nature, its not like I was trying to go from admin to molecular biologist, more like going from admin to event planner). I finally broke through and got an entry level role in my career path, but it was such a struggle.

      Anyway, my resume is definitely a bit job hopper-y, it’s borderline currently. At this point I really should probably stay in my current job for 4-5 years total. But you know what – that’s just not my biggest concern. I’m finally making progress in my career, but I’m way behind my peers (at least ones who were able to get their career started immediately) and I have a lot to make up for just in like saving/retirement alone. I’ve only been in my current role for a year, but if an opportunity to get closer to closing that gap (in terms of salary and level of responsibility) comes around, I feel that I owe it to myself not to dismiss it out of hand.

      It’s a balancing act – I’m not going to add to my “job-hoppy” appearance for a small increase, and I’m trying to think long term. I just have to hope that as long as my resume shows a clear path of growth (and it isn’t alarmingly job hoppy, like a bunch of six month stints with gaps) that any future potential employer with critical thinking skills and not married to rigid hiring “rules” will understand the importance of growth and playing catch up at this stage in my career.

      My advice: You do you. Take what is offered to you that is best for you/your career. Keep the long term in mind, don’t take short term gains at the expense of long term prospects, but also don’t turn stuff down just because traditional advice says you must stay in certain places for certain amounts of time. I think any hiring manager worth working for would look past small, individual resume “transgressions” if the overall story makes sense.

  47. Nervous Accountant*

    I went back a few weeks and saw some comments for the first time that I hadn’t seen that day. So @soupmonger and @SavannahMiranda thank you both. I promise I wasn’t ignoring you, I just didn’t see them until last night.

    I didn’t consider that my posting about the person on my team would be taken in that way. How you make others feel is important, esp in the workplace and I am trying to be someone who doesn’t make others feel bad. However, I’ve been extremely patient and nice to this person. If someone behaves in a way that is demeaning, rude, disrespectful to others and refuses to improve, I don’t think I am unprofessional or unethical in asking for advice or venting about it here.

    I realize that the alternate username I used a few times specifically for this situation turned this in to a weekly storytelling and I see now that that was wrong.

    I have been at my job for several years but was promoted recently. I try my best to be honest here about growth and I’m self aware about my (real life) shortcomings. I’m still new to my role and changing my mindset albeit slowly, and I’ve been focused on making this experience a learning opportunity for myself. While in that learning curve, I tried for months to be fair and kind to this person. Other managers would have fired him without warning or coaching. I am sure even when I first posted about this on here, people were wondering why he was still there. Well, months later and we are still trying to kind and fair and professional and take a lot of things in to consideration.

    1. Ta*

      I think you’re taking a risk in giving as much detail as you do. If he finds it he’s going to recognise himself.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        He probably won’t ever read here. And that might be part of the problem.

        I am more concerned about how long this is taking and the focus on fairness and kindness. The tricky part in fairness and kindness that sometimes in applying this standard to one person we end up being wildly unfair and unkind to those who must suffer through working with this person.
        I suggest considering a shift to what is fair for the group. If you would like examples, there are plenty of stories here about a boss who has been trying to give Jane or Bob a fair chance for years. Fair chances are finite, they have a beginning and they have an end. After that carrying this person just becomes a burden to the whole group and totally discredits the boss as a leader.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          I’m learning that it’s not as easy to just fire someone here and there is so much that goes in to even making that decision, esp during such a crucial time as right before a major deadline. While I disagree with the decision so far (of not an immediate dismissal), it’s just not mine to make.

    2. soupmonger*

      I think if you are genuinely trying to be kind and fair to this person, you ought to stop with the storytelling- however annoying that might be. I get the venting (totally!) but turning issues with staff you manage into tales to entertain others is something you cannot do, if you are a responsible manager. Thanks for taking my point seriously, and good luck with dealing with him.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yeah, I didn’t realize how serious this would get

        But I disagree that posting it here altogether is unprofessional and unethical. If that were the case then 99% of the ppl who post regularly are unprofessional.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I see you posting here for advice and reassurance, not storytelling. Continue posting. Many people have been in similar situations and have good advice. Others are in similar situations, and are reading the advice to help their own situations. Good luck with your Fergus.

        2. soupmonger*

          Most of the posts here are one-off venting. Some posters do post stories. Those stories tend to be about their workplace generally. What you ar doing is creating a repeated narrative about the misdeeds of someone you manage. Can you see the difference?

          I’ve managed people for almost 30 years and I would never do what you’re doing. I’ve learned that to manage properly and ethically, you need to be scrupulously careful with what you say, imply, and write about people you manage. I do think your ‘Kevin’ chronicles are unprofessional. You’re a new manager, I’m not – but do what you want.

          1. valentine*

            The librarian with the hoarder does this and I’ve not seen similar warnings for her. Why the recent uptick in criticism of Nervous Accountant?

            1. Middle School Teacher*

              Personally I find NA’s stories border on mean. I think they’re unprofessional. And I don’t see how they’re helping her to be fair to him.

              1. ..Kat..*

                Interesting, I have thought NA has been bending over backwards to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and second chances.

                1. Middle School Teacher*

                  To me it has to do with the relationship dynamic. She is punching down. How can she objective with this attitude?

            3. L’il Sebastian*

              I think that uptick is a reflection of how NA posts. While Kevin clearly has some real issues at work, every. little. thing. is written about and dissected in the most uncharitable way, even minor annoying things he does. And if I’m being 100% honest, I think it needles me more when NA does this than other posters because her weekend update posts (both work and personal life posts) are just constantly raining down on everything that everyone in her life does wrong while looking for reassurance with her own anxieties and to be told that her own mistakes aren’t a big deal.

              We all have flaws. And we all need to complain sometime. But the lack of any self-reflection can get grating when it’s a regular thing. Here NA seemed like she had maybe opened up for a tiny bit for self reflection, which made me feel hopeful…until I saw her slam that door shut and refuse to even entertain the idea that those saying the posts are unprofessional/mean could have a point.

          2. HR grunt*

            FWIW I agree. I think NA needs to find another outlet to vent (preferably somewhere not in writing) if this situation is so stressful. If you need actual advice that is one thing, but just complaining about your subordinate is not, no matter how annoying they are.

            As another person said, it feels like punching down, and I think it also doesn’t paint a good picture of you as a manager if you need to complain about your subordinates every week. I’d be concerned that someone else in your company would be able to identify you and Kevin from the details you’ve posted.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      There’s just a point where I think someone has to be fired to have any chance to learn what they’re doing inst working, where coaching isn’t helping and isn’t going to. I hope the next stage with this person goes quickly.

  48. stay or go?*

    I’m trying to decide if I should leave my current company. It’s my first “real job” and I’ve been with them for almost a year and a half. I’ve learned a lot in this time and have been very involved in more upper level things since we’re pretty small. However, my manager (and CEO) is a terrible manager as far as setting expectations and priorities and even making decisions. He’s making it very hard and stressful for many people (telling them that everything is a prioritity and needs to be done RIGHT NOW, going around everyone directly to each individual, changing the priorities on the fly, etc.) as well as “rewarding everyone equally”. Things always need to be done “fast”, but it’s getting to the point where I think integrity might be starting to slip. That said, we’re supposed to be hitting a few major milestones within the next few months (but of course everyone knows that our timelines are unrealistic), and I’m not sure how much longer it’s worth staying here. I would love to make it through the milestones, but I’m not sure if I can. I know I complained a lot, but I really have learned a lot, and the majority of my coworkers are really great. I just feel like I’m getting close to a breaking point, and I don’t know if the things that I’m getting frustrated by are normal and would be the same elsewhere or if they’re really not okay. I know it’s hard to help since I’ve tried to be vague, but any help or input would be appreciated. And I’ll stick around to answer follow up questions as much as I can.

    1. Ashley*

      Start looking now so you have time to pick the right next job and you aren’t desperate to leave and take what might be a worse job.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed and start thinking about whose opinion you value there. Is there someone who seems to be rock solid? Maybe you can strike up a conversation with just that person and ask their opinion on what is going on. The thing to be careful of here, the rock solid person is not necessarily the loudest person, nor it is necessarily the person with an opinion on every. single. thing.

  49. Susan*

    Hi group. Question for you all:

    Manager browsing websites (retail, AAM, news etc) vs an hourly, lower level employee doing the same.

    Thoughts on this?

        1. Schnoodle HR*

          Yep, hourly or salary is just how they’re paid. If they’re doing their job I do not care. It may mean they could use more on their plates, but otherwise, job is done safely and timely, don’t care. If it’s becoming a huge thing I might start finding webinars to help them develop or other training. But no, just because one is a “manager” and one is “low level” doesn’t make a difference. “manager” gets to brows and pay bills online and check in on text messages and “low level” gets to sit and twiddle their thumbs?

      1. Susan*

        It is getting done.

        However, the lower level employee was talked to about excessive socializing and being on the internet and they countered with “but manager does it!”

        1. CatCat*

          That counter is so meaningless. “We’re not here to talk about Manager’s performance. We’re here to talk about yours.”

          That said, I would be pretty frustrated to be chastised for “excessive socializing and being on the internet” if I were getting my work done at a high level. What exactly is the *problem* here?

          1. Susan*

            ” That said, I would be pretty frustrated to be chastised for “excessive socializing and being on the internet” if I were getting my work done at a high level. What exactly is the *problem* here? ”

            This happened to the lower level employee who is hourly and gets paid overtime for extra hours worked. The higher level employee is salary.

            1. Schnoodle HR*

              That’s different, if the hourly isn’t managing his time and extending the clock for a paycheck that’s a performance issue.

            2. CatCat*

              So is the lower level employee having to go into overtime? Not getting their work done during regular hours? I am not clear on that.

              If those things are happening, those are the problems. “You aren’t finishing your work during regular working hours. Because you are an hourly employee, it is important for you to use your regular working hours efficiently to do your work. Spending a bunch of time browsing the internet or spending 30 minutes chatting with your colleagues is interfering with getting the work done without going into overtime. I need you to get your tasks done during regular hours. Can you commit to that?”

              And if excessive overtime is the problem, don’t approve the employee working overtime to get work done if that is work the employee has sufficient time to do during the day. Tell them, “Do not work overtime without my prior approval.” (I mean, if the employee then works overtime ANYWAY contrary to your instructions, the company still has to pay them, but that would be something to have a much more serious conversation about with the employee. Like that would be a firing offense at jobs I had when I was hourly.)

        2. matcha123*

          “But so-and-so does it!” is rarely ever a good comeback.
          The lower employee could be given more tasks to do, but it sounds like it’s less about the quality and more about the appearance. In that case, she may just have to suck it up for a bit.
          Or be told, “I am not monitoring Manager’s work, I am monitoring yours and this is what I want to see changed”?

    3. WomanOfMystery*

      As long as it’s not getting in the way of actual work, it’s fine. Even at hourly, you’re kinda paying to have their services available at need.

        1. valentine*

          Yes, but is the OT because of the socializing and Internet usage?

          Tell them it’s unprofessional and childish to invoke a higher-up when told to cease and desist. Also: no to retail; yes to AAM and possibly news.

          If you’re the manager, don’t let him argue. He doesn’t get a vote. Be clear about the consequences.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It doesn’t matter the position.

      What matters is if they’re both getting work done and are able to juggle it. It’s time management for one and not another in many setups.

      She’s acting like an insolent child by saying “Suzie does iiiiit tho!!!”. No. That’s a problem. We don’t use that in adulthood. She seems like a problem that runs much deeper than the excessive browsing.

    6. Mazzy*

      Of course it matters at both levels. If there is a long period of time with someone browsing the net I’m assuming that the position is either not needed or that the person is missing a lot of stuff. I’ve definitely worked with people who always had a “everything’s fine” attitude because they weren’t catching a bunch of errors in their area

  50. Louise Belcher*

    Our office is considering getting one of those Bevi machines. If anyone has one in their office, please share your thoughts!

  51. Nervous Accountant*

    Yall.

    Just found a client who uploaded a porno pic to our portal. The accountant who was going to work on his return was pulling the information and saw the picture.

    We laughed and super grossed out.

    2. Boredatwork*

      I was googling some line items in a “miscellaneous” expense account from a client once, I wish I had never done that. I also wish my company’s filter was strong/existed.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      Oh no I’m so sorry! I’ve definitely send a message before that said “Oh my! I was scandalized when I went to do [thing] and saw [thing].” [Thing] wasn’t intentionally shared, and I felt like it was an appropriate balance of “heads up” and “wtf” without hurting the relationship, but since this is a client and not a coworker y’all are also on solid footing to fucking fire that client.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I tried to call the client and let them know this was uploaded, hopefully ill be able to get in touch with him and ask him to remove it. Could’ve been an accident. at least it was “normal” type. I just feel bad for the first person who saw it. She (rightfully) refused to work with him so I reassigned it and gave a heads up to the new person doing the return.

  52. Sophie before she was cool*

    I supervise someone who is very interested in software development, to the point where they’ve asked for access to some of the resources our development team uses — going over my head to do so. (We are not software developers, we are project managers.) This person has been a less-than-stellar employee anyway, and in our last one-on-one, I said that we on the operations side of the business aren’t involved in software development. I said that the development team has their own processes in place for implementing new features and that it’s great they’re interested in development, but there’s none of that in this job and there will be none in future projects. Their response was, verbatim, “Project work, not development. Got it.”

    Only… they don’t got it. Three hours later I get a message saying they’d mocked up a potential feature and would like to send the code to the dev team along with the feature request. It’s a fine idea for a feature, but very much not our job. No one has given my supervisee any indication that suggestions of this sort are welcome, and we have existing channels for feature requests.

    I don’t know how much clearer I can be. They purport to love the job they’re supposed to be doing, but no matter how many times I say “focus on the project and let me know if you feel like you don’t have enough project work on a daily basis”, they insist on mocking up code in their “downtime”.

    This is mostly a rant, but I welcome any sympathy or suggestions.

    1. Rey*

      Have you been super concrete that their job is at risk if they don’t stop this? Clearly spell it out: “Mocking up code is not how I want you to use your downtime. You cannot spend work time on software development, and if you do this again, you’ll be let go” (or whatever timeline/consequences thing your company does).

      1. Sophie before she was cool*

        I haven’t, and I’m not comfortable doing so. I supervise their day-to-day work but I’m not their manager for HR-type purposes. My own manager is, though, and I can absolutely be more direct with her about the problems I’ve had with this employee. She knows, and she knows it’s not ideal, but we do need to have a conversation about what the consequences will be if this behavior doesn’t stop (and it doesn’t look like it will).

        1. M*

          In that case – start with the conversation about consequences with your manager, and tbh it really does sound like you need “we will let you go if this keeps happening” on the table.

          If your manager isn’t willing to back you up on that, at the very least you can be blunt about what the actual impact this is having on their perception within the company is.

          “I will not be forwarding any code you write to the developers. Writing code is not your job, and you cannot do it in the time you’re paid to do project management work. If you have spare time, you need to come to me so that I can allocate you work – and if you have ideas for what you’d like to be allocated, you can pitch those ideas, but you can’t unilaterally spend your paid time on whatever you feel like doing. Your job is not code development, and I’m extremely unlikely to approve project suggestions that involve trying to sidestep into the developers’ work.

          This is impacting the way you’re viewed here, not just by me, but also by [manager]. If I were forwarding your code to the developers, it would also effect the way you – and our entire team – were viewed by *them*, and not in a good way. You do not and cannot know what priorities they have, what feature choices they’ve made, and what projects they consider themselves to have the bandwidth to take on and maintain. It comes across as you trying to override their choices, not you being helpful – and if what you want to do is move into a coding role, you’re actively hurting your chances of doing so. In particular, by not focusing on the tasks we actually need you to do, you’re demonstrating that you’re not a team player, and not willing to fully commit yourself to doing work that bores you. That would be just as much a problem in that team as here, and if you were to apply to a role there, that’s what they’d currently hear.

          I can’t imagine you want that, so this needs to stop – no more going off-project to work on code, and you need to start coming to me when you need more tasks. Can you commit to that, or is this not a job you want under those terms?”

          1. valentine*

            I don’t know how much clearer I can be.
            You can tell him to stop doing it. If it’s hurting your department’s rep, I don’t see why you wouldn’t be the one to tell him. This “it’s not ideal” is soft-peddling a serious issue. Is he doing his own work the way you need it done or just harassing coders? He doesn’t care his current role has no development tasks because gumptioning himself a transfer.

    2. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      It sounds like they’re doing this to (a) try to stand out, and (b) try to position themselves to transfer into software development in the future.

      They seem unhappy in their current role.

    3. Red5*

      If they’re not doing well on the things they are supposed to be doing, I’d focus my feedback on that part. In other words, letting them know what they SHOULD be doing with their downtime (focus on improving X, Y and Z, or whatever) instead of telling them what they SHOULDN’T be doing (development work). In other words, try to get them to focus on improved performance in their “downtime” instead of other projects. If that’s what you’re already doing and I’m just saying it a different way, then I’d definitely second more direct conversations with their manager that they’re still not improving in any meaningful way.

    4. Mazzy*

      I love this rant, we’re hiring now for the operations side of the software job and I’m getting lots of IT or software coder resumes and I don’t know how to handle them. This is exactly the position I don’t want to be in!

      1. Sophie before she was cool*

        I’m glad it’s not just me! I mean, I’m not really. I hope you hire someone awesome whose heart is in operations. :)

    5. n*

      It might be helpful to appeal to her personal interest by letting her know that this is NOT going to score her any points with the dev team, if she secretly *is* trying to position herself for a transfer to their team (in addition to letting her know that this not the way she should be spending her time in general).

  53. C Average*

    So, I have a retail job I mostly like, but there’s a newish member of the management team I really can’t coexist with. (Everyone else loathes her, too. She gossips, kisses up and kicks down, pulls new “rules” out of thin air and then changes her mind about them, overshares inappropriate personal stuff, yells and berates, and is just all-around awful.)

    My company has many locations, and I am looking to transfer to a different one, but to keep the same job. The location I want to leave is literally right up the street from me. How do I frame my desire to transfer without badmouthing my management? I’d obviously prefer to leave her out of it.

    My desired location is actually where I shop on my days off and I like the overall vibe there a lot. Is that a sufficient pretext for wanting to transfer there?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, especially in retail requests to work closer to home happen all the time. Leverage the story about location to get a way from Ms. Toxic.

    2. NaoNao*

      Eh, I’m not sure you really need an ironclad reason to transfer. If you are asked, maybe politely say that “recent changes in management have made the working environment difficult” or focus on an aspect of the transfer store that you want to upskill in—maybe they get a different stock, have different foot traffic, are bigger or are smaller so you can really focus on customers one on one, is closer to your errand running needs, etc.

    3. Queen of Cans and Jars*

      Location is a 100% completely understandable reason for wanting to switch locations, so absolutely use that as your reason if you don’t want to bring the new manager into it.

    4. Former Retail Manager*

      You say your current location is closer to your home, but you like the new area better, if I’m understanding this correctly. How you go about this really depends upon how your company handles transfers (do they make it difficult or is it no big deal) and how dysfunctional the workplace is overall. My experience in retail was mostly bad, to be quite honest, and I found the industry to be relatively dysfunctional overall, so my response is obviously biased based on my own experiences. All that said, even if your workplace is decent/functional, I still wouldn’t cite the real reason you want to transfer unless you are 1,000% positive that management/whomever controls your transfer also doesn’t care for this manager. You say “everyone else” loathes her, but are those people management or non-management? Management tends to back their own. You could always say that there are going to be some changes in your personal life and you now need to relocate to the other location, as a result. You could always say you’re moving, transfer, and then should anyone follow up, say that plans fell through. I really hate to encourage you to be untruthful, but I saw people get blackballed far too many times. If they had a problem with a manager, but no one else did or no one else spoke up, they’d be labeled as a “troublemaker/whiner/not a team player” and they’d be “managed out” or have their hours cut so low to the point that they’d quit on their own. I’d really just try to keep your reasoning as vague as you can. Good luck!

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Not sure this applies to you but I remember that when I lived very close to my place of business I was always the first person called if someone no-showed or the opener was going to be be late because it was “NBD” for me to show up for 15-20 minutes since I was so close. If this has been happening to you that would be a valid reason (using the “because of my close proximity to the store I am getting called in a lot to cover for very short stints instead of company policy being followed”).
      Otherwise try to find something at the other location that really appeals to you (even something as simple as X-location has more lunch options within walking distance) and use that.

    6. C Average*

      Thanks for the responses. Good stuff.

      One point of clarification: my current location (which I’d like to leave) is about six blocks away, while the next-nearest location (where I’d like to go) is about a mile away. So one of my worries is how to explain why I’m pursuing the same job at a slightly more distant location.

      Fortunately, we don’t have last-minute schedule changes or pleas to cover other people’s shifts (we have floaters for that). From a quality-of-life and benefits perspective, this is far and away the best retail gig I’ve ever had.

      I absolutely won’t say anything about the bad manager! I’m just trying to figure out what I should say when I’m asked why I’m looking to transfer.

      I may be anticipating a question that won’t come up, though. I know through the grapevine that our store and its management have a reputation for dysfunction.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Sorry, I was confused in my previous answer.

        Find something about the store: it’s bigger; or you shop there more ;or you want to move around a bit between stores; or you had actually hoped to work there from the beginning but this store was closer to home so you took it in the hope you could change.
        I lean toward the last choice because no one can prove or disprove your private intentions.
        Plan on that they already know the problems about your current manager.
        Cool story: There was a boss who went to a new place. He made it his habit to hire people from Other Place with toxic boss. The manager at the next store may be doing something similar in bailing people out from under a toxic boss.

      2. Dr. Anonymous*

        I think saying the other store is the one where you find you like to shop and you’d love to be on that team is a fine reason. And all of that presumes upper management cares enough about you to look at a map.

  54. PersistentCat*

    Does anyone know any guides to writing good work instructions that are super free and have no (or relatively few) ads on the site, or a book that I may be able to check out from the library? I am creating a series of work instructions, work aides, and procedures, but am struggling with differentiating between the three, and could use a few pointers in that regard as well…
    Also, any cheats on making process flow charts in Excel/Word/Powerpoint? Looks like I won’t get Visio for a bit, which kinda sucks. I’ve been graphing the processes using pencil and paper, very sloppily, and can’t use that as the actual aide, which sucks!

    Thanks you guys! My google-fu isn’t so terrible, but the websites that are too high level or just really vague are not helpful, and then there are all the freaking ads :(
    New job is going well, thanks for all of your support last year!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Word , Excel, and Powerpoint all have SmartArt in the Insert tab that you can use for flowcharts, etc.

      1. PersistentCat*

        Huh. I must have missed something when I was looking through the SmartArt templates, as I didn’t see anything that would allow the kind of branching I’d need, with the exception of the org chart, which almost seemed right…Hmmm. I’m going to mess with that more. Thanks!!!

        1. Elizabeth West*

          You’re welcome. I’ve used the org chart one to make flowcharts before–you can fiddle with the templates quite a bit. It’s not Visio or any kind of graphic organizer, but it should hold you until you can get something better.

    3. At the Timberline*

      For resources on developing better content, lookup books on technical writing – they often cover writing online instructions. One example – Developing Quality Technical Information. (That particular one may be overkill but can give you ideas!)

      You can get a free O’Reilly Safari Books in-line trial to look up similar books, or at your library.

      And for actual flowchart tools, I love whimsical.co, which has a free plan, and has been easy/fun to use.

  55. Michaela*

    Sanity check:

    My team has gotten approval for a temp — this is unusual and apparently my VP had to really fight for it. This is great, except that I’m feeling some kind of way about the information that the job posting went up and they didn’t tell us for over a week. WHY, IDK, but I am definitely feeling as though this is something we should have been informed about beforehand. Is this just my brain freaking out over nothing, or should I pay attention to this as some kind of yellow flag?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      It is pretty rare that people internally are told about job postings, especially not for temps. I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        I should have specified that at some places it is rare. Like, pretty much every place I’ve ever worked. Other places are better about letting folks know about postings.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Do you think they are lining someone up because they anticipate firing someone else?

      It’s always wise to stay sharp and pay attention at work, so under the general idea of paying attention, yeah definitely pay attention here.
      But to stay up late worrying? I wouldn’t at least not until I had more info. OR if the company had a habit of hiring temps just before they fire someone, that would be concerning to me.
      But taking a straight read of what you have written here, at most I would take a wait and see attitude.

  56. Honest Abe*

    I have been customer facing in some form or another since I was a waitress in high school. Not in food service/retail anymore, but customers are customers. When it comes to negative interactions, nothing much fazes me anymore. I deal with rude and downright mean people calmly and just roll my eyes after. But it throws me for a loop when someone accuses me of being in anyway dishonest, sneaky, or unethical. And to go around me and do so to my boss, no less! (They never once indicated that they were unhappy when I talked to them). The whole thing was over super quickly. I told my boss what happened, I had documentation to prove that what the customer was saying was not accurate, and my boss took my side immediately (because in 5 years I have never once proven to be untrustworthy or dishonest). But the whole thing really shook me, for some reason. It was just before lunchtime yesterday, and I went out to get lunch and cried behind my sunglasses as I was walking.
    Now today I have to call this person and process the final payment. (After some e-mail back and forth with my boss they relented and admitted that they were NOT being overcharged, but now they still need to pay me). And… well I REALLY do not want to talk to them. I know it’s silly. I know I have to do it, but I keep occupying myself with other tasks, and getting excited when my phone rings so I can put it off a few more minutes…
    Just one of those days that I have to keep reminding myself that I really do love my job…

    1. deesse877*

      What I have done in similar situations is (a) give no sign that I know anything about it, (b) take petty pleasure in them not getting a rise out of me, and (c) add **just enough** confident and demonstrative nicey-nice to my attitude so that savvy people will know I’m telling them to F themselves, and naive people will be confused.

      I mean, this might all be a drama playing out only in my head, but I think there’s nonetheless a lot to be said for not letting them see that they had an effect on you. The bad feelings are real, and it sucks when someone does this to you, and you can take back a little power by not giving them the satisfaction.

      1. Kathenus*

        All of this, yes. The other thought I had was to silently enjoy the fact that they probably feel even less comfortable with you, since they were in the wrong and know it. So realizing they may hate this even more might give you some perverse satisfaction, it would to me.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      So did they say that they thought YOU deliberately overcharged them?
      Or did they say that they thought you made a mistake?

      There’s a difference between the two. The latter holds the situation in the best possible light. We all make mistakes.

      To me it sounds like a hold-over from retail, where being fifty cents short is on a par with Murder 1. And all. the. drama. that follows. They spend hundreds of dollars in wages hammering on that lost fifty cents.

      It might help to redirect your focus on two things. One, you had your stuff in a row proving that you were correct. Second, your boss had your back. Tell yourself, this is not like it was in the past, this is different this time. Say it over and over as needed.

      A while back a lady said that her credit card was erroneously charged by my workplace. Since I am the one using the card machine, she meant ME. I was pretty mad about how much time (that I cannot spare) that I had to spend going over this and over this with the credit card company. I landed on sending them way more documentation than they ever would need and pointing out that this lady could be arrested for fraud because I had the paperwork showing she agreed to the charge.
      And that was the end of that story.
      It was about six months later we had an opportunity to change credit vendors and we did.
      I felt kind of sad for the woman. This was a large charge and she seemed to have totally forgotten the payment. This is on the par of you have a big vet bill and totally forget that you had that bill, meanwhile you have a recuperating animal next to you and you still do not remember paying for the medical help. This was a huge brain fart for that person. I was kind of concerned about their over all health.

  57. Darianas*

    I’m looking for a third-party take on this situation. The long and short of it is: I’m a in small, business run by a couple. I’m the only one who does my job (creative), so a lot falls to me – except one half of the couple “Alex,” is very picky. As in: “if I don’t like it, it’s terrible regardless of anything else.” Often the edits I get are either small, personal things (“I don’t like pink, ever,” or “I want everything to be symmetrical or its a design failure”). It would bother me if it came from the client, but it never does. They often like what I’m doing, or at least my explanation of my reasoning is valid enough that they don’t think I’m just wasting time.

    There are some other things exacerbating how irritating I find Alex, like the fact that I’m the only POC (and they’ve laughed at the measles outbreaks, calling it propaganda). The sum total of it makes me deeply dislike being here. I’m just trying to get over the nagging idea that because they are occasionally nice I should suck it up. Any help would be appreciated.

    1. Semaj*

      Right out of college I worked for a small business run by a couple and it was so unprofessional and toxic that I eventually had all of my friends and family sending me job opportunities (without being asked!) after they heard about the awful conditions I put up with. It’s hard to see from what you’ve provided here how bad it is, but some things seem more likely to happen with small, “family run” businesses such as – unchecked religious/political commentary, inappropriate boundaries (if any), and being subject to the whims and emotions of the couple in a way that isn’t common in the working world.

      At the end of the day, you “deeply dislike” being there, and it sounds like it’s a personality/environment problem. Them occasionally being kind to you doesn’t discount an inappropriate work environment. Businesses like this are notorious for mistreating their employees, and it sounds like it might be time for you to move on to a more typical working environment. Good luck!

      1. Darianas*

        Thanks! I’m job hunting right now and I know logically that it’s bad. They’re dangling a full time position and, when they’re actively terrible, I think it’d be nice to take them up on it if they offer. Im just trying to stop that line of thinking.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          By the sheer fact you can’t land on “stay” or “go” that alone stands for reason enough to go. Watch out for situations where you find yourself yo-yoing back and forth between two ideas/people/goals/whatever. That pull/push back and forth can eventually tear at our health.
          It’s okay to get off the roller coaster. Plenty of places operate on an nice even keel. There’s a place out there just waiting for you, you don’t need these people and their immaturity.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      The occasional niceness and the full time offer are just the bouquet they’re hiding the dagger in.

      Don’t be fooled – they will still stick you every chance they get.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      1. These people stink.
      2. Please don’t think it’s because it’s a family owned small business. These people exist at every size setup. They’re just stinkers.
      3. Look for another job!! You should be at least 90% happy with your employer (I leave it to 90% because you’ll always have something to be desired. A nicer office, more vacation, a coworker who doesn’t pop their gum or leave dishes in the sink etc). They should be good to you always and deliver criticism correctly (without being snide or obnoxious).

      You don’t owe them. You do a job and as long as you’re delivering a good product that REASONABLE and decent people would respect and appreciate, that’s all you owe these people until you find a new place to settle in at.

      Again. These people sound kind of pathetic and obnoxious AF.

  58. Juli G.*

    I talk to myself out loud a lot when I’m frustrated, confused, etc. The nature of my job (which I love) leads to this a lot. I’m also in an open office environment now.

    Others that talk to themselves- what tips do you have to check yourself? I know I have to break this habit but I don’t know where to start.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Yeah, you 100% have to shut this down, as it is typically a faux pas in an open office – and I sympathize, because I usually hum to myself all day, and I had to absolutely learn to stop it!! In my case, I don’t know why but putting on headphones helped me stop humming (because I couldn’t hear myself over it? Not sure). My office is pin-drop silent most of the time so that made it really easy. Can you ask a kind coworker to call it to your attention when you’re doing it? Can you write notes or emails to yourself instead? Can you step out and give yourself “talk myself through it” time in a conference room or hallway?

      1. Juli G.*

        I’ve asked some close sitting friendly coworkers to tell me if it bothers them and they all say they don’t even hear me (which I doubt). And the problem is that it’s my first reaction to reading an email/text/etc. I don’t need to talk outloud – it’s a natural first reaction I have to stop which is why it’s so hard.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Would just lowering the volume be enough? I had a coworker who did this (and I do this some, but only when I’m really frustrated with something) but nobody cared because she was basically just mouthing the words–there was hardly any actual sound.

          My mom, on the other hand, will full-volume narrate her whole life. She literally narrated opening the mail the other night. She thinks it doesn’t count if she’s not directing it at anyone, but she’s still filling the air with verbal clutter.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            That is a good suggestion! Don’t focus on stopping the reaction, which would be very hard since it’s involuntary, just focus on mouthing the words instead of speaking them.

        2. JessicaTate*

          Instead of asking them to tell you if it bothers them, I’d ask, “Could you tell me any time you notice me doing it at all? I’m really trying to break the habit, but I’m not sure I even notice. It would be a big help if you could just give me a signal when I do it.” That way, it’s about helping you, not about THEM being bothered — which, we put up with a lot in order to be polite.

          And I feel you. I’m an instinctive talk-to-myself person and I work alone most of the time. It’s a hard habit to break when I have a co-worker in my space, but you’re right, you should really try.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      The key is to increase your consciousness of it, so you can catch yourself.

      It’s a process – you think of a short, not-mean-to-yourself reaction word, like “Shhhh.” And everytime you notice you’re vocalizing, think “shhhh” and go sub-vocal as mentioned above.

      If you keep at it, you will start catching yourself more often. Then you start catching yourself sooner. Then you start catching yourself before you do it at all.

      Getting mad at yourself or being negative will slow you down. Your goal is to observe and adjust, not to feel guilty.

      If doing it all mentally doesn’t seem to get you anywhere, you can try a small tracker, like making check marks on your calendar, every time you catch yourself. You decide, “I will make a mark every time I catch myself vocalizing.”

      That will help raise it to your consciousness, because you have an intention to make that physical action. So your brain is more likely to observe the cue for the action.

      Hope that helps!

      1. Juli G.*

        Thank you! Awesome suggestions! I like the idea of tracking myself since I’m competitive- even with myself.

  59. Bee's Knees*

    Ugh. I feel like I’ve been hanging from one of those swing rides at a theme park. Upside down. This week has been a whirlwind, and I’ve been super busy, but I don’t know that I got anything done.

    We didn’t have to lay anyone off this week (fist pump) and I got to call three people and tell them to come back to work, so that was great.

    The lady that works in the office that keeps trying to kill me with an overabundance of sprayed cleaning products and invasions into my personal space won’t be here after Monday. It was going to be today, but new boss is nicer than me.

  60. anonynervous (formerly anonypissed)*

    Can I get some help deciphering my handbook’s policy on resignations? It sounds to me like the day you give notice does not count towards your notice period. Typically I’d assume that if I gave notice on Mon Feb 25 that my last day would be Fri Mar 8, but this sounds like the last day would be Mon Mar 11. Am I just being paranoid or does it sound that way to anyone else? I obviously can’t ask anyone without alerting them that I’m possibly resigning.

    “Employees are asked to provide a written notice to their supervisors at least 10 working days in advance of the last day of work”

    I’m hoping to be accepting a great new job late this afternoon (waiting on updated paperwork) that seems to have a need for new employees to start on Mondays. So if I’m not able to start on Mar 11, I’d need to tell them before I accept the offer so they can move the start date back (the start date is part of the offer that I have to sign).

    1. Rey*

      The phrase “are asked” stands out to me, not “are required”. So give notice today or Monday, and specifically say that March 8 will be your last day. If they push back, let them know that you can’t change your last day. (And congrats on the new job!)

    2. WellRed*

      It’s perfectly reasonable to give notice on Monday with your last day on the Friday. Also, don’t tell the new company your start until you hammer this down. And remember, the company handbook is not a legal document with rigid interpretations.

      1. Washi*

        Yeah, unless you have some kind of contract, 10 business days is a courtesy, not a legal requirement. No reasonable manager is going to count the exact number of business hours between your notice and your last hour of work and hold it against you if it’s 77 rather than 80.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They can’t require you. It’s a request.

      Our lawyer ripped out even the suggestion in ours. They said it means you have to give 2 weeks notice of termination as well if you request it in the handbook. And since we’re strong on the right to stay At Will, they weren’t pleased with the clause.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you tell them Monday at the start of the day then you can count Monday.

      I hope you know I am joking. You have some over thinking going on here. Give notice on Monday and make two Fridays out your last day. It will be fine.

      Good luck and congrats on your new job!

  61. Medical office chaos*

    We’re having an issue with clients that I’d love to hear others take on.
    I work in a medical office and we have a large waiting room for most patients (serves two practices) and a smaller sub waiting area for our patients who come in for daily treatments. We recently replaced the CC TV’s in both waiting areas because the company that provided them wasn’t updating the info on them (a local physician who had left a year prior was still advertised as accepting new patients). We replaced the CC TV’s with Cable and try to keep the TV on something innocuous like National Geographic or HGTV. We have several patients who come in and immediately change the channel to news, then sit down and read a newspaper. We regularly have to change the channel off of news. We even had one patient get nasty with staff who refused to give him the remote control so he could change the channel, he swore at at least two people. Most people are in this waiting area 5-10 minutes (unless they show up really early as some of the worst offenders do). We’ve even had some who managed to change the input so it made static and we had to get someone in to fix it.
    Yesterday we figured out how to lockdown the news channels but this is apparently a problem for the patients who can’t last 5 minutes without news.
    We’re really baffled because the idea of changing the channel in a doctor’s office is so strange to us. We all get asking staff to change if it’s accidentally offensive but this I’m going to change it no matter what anyone says is so strange and annoying.

    1. Oxford Comma*

      Huh. I spend far too much time in medical waiting rooms and I’ve never seen this happen. Most of the places have a small sign that thanks people for not changing the channels.

      I wonder if you could do something similar and perhaps reply to requests to change it to news with “The majority of our patients prefer it to be on non-news stations. Thanks for understanding.”

      1. Psyche*

        Alternatively, you can say “I’m sorry but we cannot take requests for the TV channel. People have such different preferences that our policy is to leave it on HGTV.

        1. valentine*

          Bless you for blocking the news.

          Bolt something to the wall that blocks button access. You may want to over the outlet/cord as well, for when someone tries to tear it it out. Put a sign on the TV that says no news/no requests. Don’t explain beyond “It’s what works best for our office”.

      2. Autumnheart*

        I would instead say that it’s office policy, not based on the preference of the patients, because that would only give them an opening to be like “I’M a patient and I prefer it be changed to the news!”

    2. WellRed*

      Turn the TV on, put it on an appropriate channel, put the remote away. “Oh, we’re watching kitchen makeovers today!” Said with a smile.

      And make sure you have new reading material, relevant to your general patient base, in the waiting room, including a daily paper or two.

      1. Medical office chaos*

        I wish it were as easy as putting the remote away, we tried that and people just use the buttons on the TV.

        3. Autumnheart*

          Protective TV screen cover that blocks the buttons? Is this a cable television feed? Maybe installing parental controls and blocking all the news channels?

        4. WellRed*

          Yikes! I just assumed the TV was up near the ceiling and awkward to reach! Also, there are still TVs with buttons? ; )

          1. Medical office chaos*

            The ceiling in this room is particularly low so TV is 5.5 feet off ground or so maybe a little higher. This model has one button and you do one push for some things a double for others, push and hold for others.

    3. Emi.*

      Ugh, this sounds annoying but I really don’t think you’re being unreasonable. (My midwives’ office plays HGTV, but also CNN and Fox so I figure it’s for nesting mothers rather than to be innocuous.)

    4. Llellayena*

      “We don’t allow channels that are likely to raise our patients’ blood pressure. Thank you for understanding.”

      1. ..Kat..*

        Some people accept this better when changed to read “Doctor X does not allow…..”. People seem to respect it more if the “doctor says…”.

    5. Margali*

      I HATE TVs in waiting rooms — how about you get rid of them entirely? I was at the ER waiting for my grandmother a few years ago, and the channel was set to to some really grisly true crime program. Fortunately, the front desk agreed to change it to a nature show. Frogs and flowers were much more soothing than decapitated bodies.

      1. Sam Sepiol*

        last time I was at the dentist’s I ended up watching the scene in My Girl where the kid (spoiler for old film!!) dies. It was horrendous. My mental health at not the greatest at that time anyway and that did not help.

        I hate cooking shows and the like, but absolutely would have preferred LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE than seeing a child death on my lunch hour, fiction or no

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Why is it that there are tvs everywhere? Are we so dull-minded that we have to have something entertaining us every second??

        I vote for getting rid of the tvs also. I don’t want to know that I am being charged for that through my doctor bills. Some tvs really run up electric bills, also. The first thing I would think of is “how much of my bill goes toward their electric bill?”

        My second choice is to hide the remotes and put up signs that say, “Do not change the tv.”
        As a patient, I’d probably look for a new doc without a tv.

        1. Windchime*

          I hate it, too. The pumps at my gas station even have small TV screens that blare at you while the gas is pumping. Who are the people who like this and actually care to watch these 10-second “programs”?

          I once took my child to the emergency room for a terrible migraine and the TVs in the waiting room were blaring. The staff would not allow us to change the channel or turn down the volume. Because apparently sick and/or injured people love hearing loud TVs for hours on end?

    6. Aphrodite*

      Thank you! Thank you so much for not having news on. I hate having that crap shoved down my throat even without sound. Please continue your stance and let those few people who can’t live without the daily bummer look at their phones.

    7. LCL*

      I think there are different versions of parental controls available through the cable company and maybe through the TV itself. I don’t know anything about this but I have read they exist.
      I admit I have turned down the TV in medical offices when it was earsplitting loud but I haven’t and wouldn’t change the channel.

    8. Koala dreams*

      Some people just don’t find changing the channel to be a big deal. Can you place it higher up or somewhere else so people can’t reach the buttons on the tv? Can you choose which channels from the cable package that’s accessible from that tv? Another option is to take away the tv. If people prefer to read papers anyways, maybe you could buy some different papers, including newspapers and nature magazines, instead.

    9. Notthemomma*

      Perhaps a sign with something along the lines of saying the channel has been set and cannot be changed by staff. Patients who change the channel will have their appointment rescheduled for a month after their program has been cancelled.’ I mean, reword it to a fun lighthearted wording with a cartoon or something on it? But also, take a needle nose and pull the buttons out of the tv and cover with electrical tape.

    10. Nana*

      Too funny…and timely. I live in a large gated community with a clubhouse and large TV. People almost came to blows over competing news channels…and management removed the TV.

    11. M*

      I mean, I’d get rid of the TV, for the reasons others have shared, but also:

      Tape over the buttons, and a sign saying “This TV is channel-locked. Staff cannot change the channel. You cannot change the channel. No-one can change the channel. It is true, eternal, it shines forever. When the end times come, HGTV will echo through the empty halls for eternity.

      Thank-you for understanding.”

      Make ’em feel nice and silly for asking.

    12. I'd be the one turning the tv off if I can reach the buttons*

      Cancel the cable. Get a DVD player and some really innocuous travelougue DVDs – I’m thinking “Lighthouses of Scotland” or “Trains of South America” level here. If it can’t get outside signals people will stop insisting on their preferred form of such, so you can pick what the choices are by simply not offering anything non-bland. They can watch 15 minutes of some kind of inoffensive travelogue documentary if they pay attention to the provided screen, or they can read a magazine instead (or get on their phone to watch their preferred form of news).

    13. nonegiven*

      I hate those tvs in every place I need to wait. I try to turn them off if I’m stuck in a waiting room with them and always on the news. At least turn the captions on and mute the volume so don’t have to listen.

      If I was you, I’d lock the other channels out and tell the people that it’s doctors’ orders to avoid raising people’s blood pressure before their vitals are taken.

  62. Anonning*

    My workplace does not have a tradition of allowing us to work remotely, but we have a new boss and she’s given me permission to do a trial of working from home a few days a week. Some of my co-workers, especially the ones who have trouble staying in their lane) are giving me attitude (e.g. “Must be nice.” “I wish I could stay home like that.” I have tried saying that it was something I worked out with my supervisor and if they have questions or comments, they should go to her.

    I could use some scripts for responding to those kind of remarks. I know what I want to say, but I’m trying to stay professional.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Must be nice.”
      “It *is* nice. It’s a great benefit. If you’re interested, you should talk to Supervisor about it.”

    3. Jan*

      “Oh! Have you been told you can’t?”

      I got this, too, when I moved to working 4 -10s at a job. The guy who sat in the cubicle across from mine was always grumbling about how he wouldn’t mind taking Fridays off, since he usually worked more than 8 hours M-Th. I settled on a fairly non-engaging “well, you should ask your manager about it”. I mean, come ON.

  63. Labradoodle Daddy*

    My last day of work at my awful, awful job is next Friday (3/1). Even though insurance can last through the end of the month during which your last day takes place, my company is ending my insurance that same day.

    I know it’s legal, I just think it’s shitty. And I rely on insurance to get important anti depressants and therapy. Sigh. Reason number 1,000,000,000 why health insurance shouldn’t be tied to employment :/

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What kind of f…ing insurance allows that?! Ours have always been strict on giving them the last day and would never override on a whim…

      Do you pay for the premiums yourself? The company may terminate internally but the insurance company will collect directly like with COBRA. Talk to your insurance and cut these chuckleheads out of the loop.

      Are you going on to a new job without their suckitude?! I feel like I just have missed a post somewhere about your escape from that toxic waste dump

      1. Labradoodle Daddy*

        I quit three weeks ago (if my math is right, next Friday is my last day and I gave 1month’s notice). I just couldn’t stand how fucking miserable I was working for a company that treated its employees so poorly, on top of 3 hours of commute a day and 41k a year in New York F-ing City.

        I don’t know a ton about insurance, I just know my company will do everything and anything to give their employees the absolute least. Maybe they’re doing something shady, IDK.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’ll know if you’re paying them if they’re deducting from your checks. Check your paystub!

          They’re still a big agency so they can’t play fast and loose with your insurance. You at least should be covered by COBRA and it is a breech to not give you all that information prior to total cancellation.

          I’m glad you’re getting away. With time to dedicate to a search, you’ll be employed soon.

          1. Labradoodle Daddy*

            They are deducting from my checks, that I know.

            I’m so excited to feel like I can give a crap about myself for once…. not have to feel so sad all the time.

    2. SOCK ME UP MONKEY*

      Any way your dr can write you a script for 3 months or something that you can get filled beforehand? Super shitty.

      Do you have another job lined up?

      1. valentine*

        Yeah, can you get one last refill?

        And ask your insurance if any of this is true. Don’t sign or agree to anything.

  64. Mary Winchester*

    Hoping someone could help me with this. I have an employee who has a light sensitivity to the florescent lights. The way the office is set up does not allow us to turn off the light in her area without turning off the lights on this half of the floor. She does not have an office and there isn’t one available. And we went around the office to see if there was a better spot with less direct florescent light and there isn’t. Her desk is actually in the best spot with the most access to natural light. I’ve spoken with HR and the building coordinator. They asked me what specifically do we need and I’m pretty confident they will do what they can to make this work. But I and the employee do not know what can be done. Does anyone have any ideas or have dealt with anything like this? Right now, we’ve removed the light above her and that’s helping but is there anything more? Not using florescent light for the office is not an option.

    1. Qwerty*

      Can you take out the bulbs/tubes for the lights above her head? That was the compromise that my office had for the great light vs no light debate. I don’t think they even had to take out the fluorescent tubes, just unscrew them a bit. That way the light about her head will never be on, but everyone else can have their lights. She’ll still have some exposure, but if you taking out the most direct lights should hopefully help.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        This was the same solution that my office utilized for someone with this issue. It worked out well for her.

      2. TechWorker*

        +1

        I had to ask the maintenance guy to basically immediately undo the fixing of the light above me because it gave me an immediate migraine. Also makes a difference exactly where the desk is placed compared to the light.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      They make glasses that are supposed to help. I don’t know about any specific ones, so you can just google them. It would be nice of the company to pay for them, since it would not be particularly great for the employee to have to wear special glasses all day. Of course, if they already wear glasses, that may not work. . .

    3. irene adler*

      Not sure if this will be much help. Not sure what you mean by sensitivity to the fluorescent lights.
      There are different kinds of fluorescent light- warm, cool and full spectrum. This is dependent upon the bulb one uses. Would a different type of fluorescent light make a difference? I know one person in my lab has the cool lights which give off a blue tinge. She claims that she ‘feels better’ under these lights. So we make a point of always having these cool lights installed in her area. Who am I to argue?

      Or, would it be possible to use individual desk lamps for all-with LED lighting? And then make minimal use of the overhead fluorescent lighting by removing most of the fluorescent bulbs.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Fluorescent lights have a subtle flicker to them, which is a trigger for people with migraines. It’s so subtle that if it’s not a trigger for you, you won’t notice it.

    4. Bulbasaur*

      This isn’t a solution, but if it’s a blue light sensitivity, she could install f.lux on her computer. It might ease the eye strain a little bit from the screen if nothing can be done about overhead lights. Won’t work if she’s a graphic designer though, since it changes monitor colors.

    5. Pilcrow*

      I’ve seen 2 basic methods. 1) Covering the light/bulb itself 2) Installing a blocking/shading object on the cube.

      For covering the light:
      There are covers and diffusers for florescent lights. They range from purely functional to decorative. Some cover the tubes, some go over the square panel. They also come in different colors.

      Try searching under:
      fluorescent light dimming sleeve
      florescent light cover
      florescent light filter
      florescent light diffuser
      florescent light blocker

      For installing a blocker:
      Depending on the cube setup, there is the tried and true umbrella method. (Prop up an open umbrella on the cube walls to block the light.) This would be a good trial method to see what works with regards to levels of light and color.

      There are also other kinds of screens. Search under:
      cubicle block fluorescent light
      cubicle light blocker

      1. Earthwalker*

        Somewhere (Ikea?) sells large silk leaves, maybe four feet long and a yard wide, that became very popular in our office. People would install a leaf or two arcing out from the corner(s) of their cubicles and the leaves would shade the desks. It seemed to help with the light wars, in which someone would request Facilities to remove a flourescent bulb and then people would yell at the guy on the ladder, “You put that back right now!” “No, no, no, you take it out!”

    6. CheeryO*

      My coworker who is very light sensitive wears sunglasses all day (not sure if they’re special or just run-of-the-mill sunglasses). We unscrewed the bulbs in the light directly above her and in about half of the other lights in the room. It’s still more than enough light to work, and everyone was agreeable to it.

      1. lammmm*

        I used to do this when I worked retail and had an “admin” day for scheduling, conference calls, etc. The office was the size of a shoe box and had FOUR florescent lights. I’d either leave the lights off (relying on the light from the monitor and hallways) or just work with my (regular cheap) sunglasses on.

    7. MonteCristo85*

      IDK exactly how a florescent sensitivity works, but are LEDs an option? Because a semi-handy person can rewire a fluorescent light to take LED bulbs in about 5 minutes (I’ve done it several times). You could possibly change out the bulbs in her area?

      1. Admin of Sys*

        They actually make LED bulbs that plug into standard flourecent ballasts now. They’re actually cheaper over the lifespan as well, since they last ages longer than the flourcent bulbs. (though they’re more expensive in the short term)

    8. Nancie*

      Is she in a cubicle? Cube shields (cubeshield.com) might be an option, especially since you were able to disable the light directly overhead.

    9. Mary Winchester*

      Thank you everyone! These are all great suggestions! Right now we unscrewed the lights above her desk and a few around it (other coworkers happily obliged). I will look into all of these suggestions. And the agency has agreed to buy whatever is needed provided she gets a doctor’s note.

    10. tangerineRose*

      Some florescent lights give me a headache, and I’ve found wearing a wide-brimmed hat helps – it protects my eyes from the overhead light. Maybe that can help?

  65. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Well, hello! I did not see you sitting there. Welcome to the weekly Hellmouth update, where I try to entertain you with the horrors of my current daily working existence. Won’t you read along?

    All spare time this week has been spent applying to new jobs, wistfully refreshing my account on Local Big University’s career site to confirm that the three application I have still in process there ARE, in fact, still in process, and feverishly hoping some day I might get a call back on one of them (or any of the 5 million applications I currently have circulating around town). It has not been a great week on the Hellmouth.

    McGruff has… been a lot this week. Just… a lot. She has been having frequent tantrums/meltdowns at her desk. Is the phone ringing “too much”? There will be foot stamping, screaming, and swearing. So much swearing. I swear like a sailor when I’m not in a professional environment, buuuuut… this is pretty, um, excessive. (And if you’re curious, the phone hasn’t been ringing all that much, it’s been light to normal.) She attempted to get out of entering some applications (a big part of her job), and when she was unable to palm them off on anyone she claimed that her “passwords stopped working halfway through putting them in” (not how that works) and had a full red faced wobbler. Interestingly, when the decent leasing consultant and I just ignored her “the passwords” magically started working again and she quietly went back to entering them (it took her three hours). Oh, and yesterday a software program froze up for a minute and she had a tantrum and THREW HER GLASSES. This is not behavior my boss is addressing/dealing with, though. No, she had a different focus this week.

    A few weeks ago (when McGruff very first started), my boss handed out “anonymous” surveys about “what stresses us out at work.” 1) It is impossible to have a really anonymous survey here, as there are only three workers in the office not including my boss (who knows our handwriting) and three maintenance employees. 2) The stuff she had on it was really weird. Like, REALLY weird. Some of it very clearly targeting specific people (one of those people being ME—she had “chatty coworker” down as a thing you could circle as something that truly stresses you out at work, she has referred to me as chatty previously). And she watched us put our slips in the box she had set out, so she knew what order we put ours in. I did not have a great feeling about this at the time.

    Well, cut to yesterday, and our over an hour and a half long staff meeting. She told us that she had reviewed our responses to this survey (which she also proudly told us she had written and developed herself—duh, lady) and that she had found out some “very surprising” things in doing so, which she then discussed thoroughly with her boss. First off, she told us, she was surprised and happy to see that only one person had circled “unavailable supervisor” as something that stressed them out at work, however, the “strong majority” had circled “chatty coworker.” Now, as I have mentioned, these surveys were WEIRD, so we (we being the office staff minus my boss and two of the maintenance workers, so, a “strong majority”) had discussed them at length—including what we had circled/put down. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to hear that EVERYONE in that group had circled unavailable supervisor and NO ONE had circled chatty coworker. So it was at that point in the meeting that my eye started twitching uncontrollably.

    It was at this point that my boss started laying out the new office rules. We are no longer allowed to have any “personal conversations” at work, ie, we are not allowed to speak unless it is in regards to a specific work task (although this is being applied more to me than to anyone else). We also must all lock our cell phones in our desks as we are not allowed to look at them unless we are on our lunch break, on a “VERY OCCASIONAL” bathroom break “of about three minutes”,or are not at work. She also explained that she is exempt from this, as all of her cell phone activities are work related (I never knew that cat fostering, Instagram, and planning personal Mardi Gras activities were work related, but okay). The reason for the cell phone ban is that a number of people circled “coworker not doing their part” (the people who circled this, by the by, were specifically thinking about all of the times we can’t complete our work because we are waiting on the boss). My boss stressed heavily that we are all to do nothing but work straight through our 8 hours with no chitchat or distractions because we are being paid “top dollar” and if we are not able to do this we need to look for a new job that “will not pay top dollar.”

    I then was given a number of assignments to cram into an impossible timeline and was told that I would need to sit in on a 2 hour conference call with my boss when I got back from lunch. I was pretty upset about the meeting (I hate lying, I hate stupid, and I can not fathom sitting in complete silence while grinding out impossible amounts of work for 8 hours straight every day for the foreseeable future) and just could not handle the thought of sitting with her for two hours, and am slightly ashamed to admit that I called in from lunch claiming car troubles that would keep me out for the afternoon (I spent the entire afternoon looking for and applying to new job postings). I came in early this morning to find an email from my boss saying that since I had mentioned the need for better training in my survey she was giving me about 6 hours worth of online classes that she required certificated on in addition to the 4+ hours of online classes that the company is requiring (all due in the same timeframe). I also saw she had sent an email to both myself and the person from corporate who is supposed to be my mentor making a cheery introduction and asking said mentor to email me a time to call her that day and introduce myself—after I had told her I was out with car troubles. The mentor had emailed us both back suggesting I set something up for any time after 3:30. Needless to say, my boss did not tell her that I was out for the day. Fortunately, no one was in at work when I saw all of this, so no one was present to hear my smothered screams.

    On the lighter side, I was greeted with a shower of frog when I came in to work today. Just the one. I guess he had been hanging out on the doorframe of my office, and he plopped right onto my head. Poor thing, it took me five or ten minutes to catch him and release him outside. Also dealing with two flies and some rando unidentified winged insect that are insistent about smacking me in the face right now, which is definitely not the worst insect I’ve experienced here. Woo? Oh, and Squirrel Guy called me personally this week to tell me that he looked forward to seeing me in court. Always fun!

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Ugh. Certificates, not certificated. Not the worst insect attack. Sorry, y,all. This is what happens when you try to finish writing something up on your allowed three minute bathroom break.

    2. Youth*

      First off, she told us, she was surprised and happy to see that only one person had circled “unavailable supervisor” as something that stressed them out at work, however, the “strong majority” had circled “chatty coworker.”

      So this was a witch hunt and you were the quarry? Lovely.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I wasn’t the only one to be targeted, but I was probably the one who got beat up the most. I guess she’s back to full on squeezing me out/setting me up? It is fairly terrible, and I would give my notice immediately if I just had a new job lined up. C’mooooon, job search!

        1. irene adler*

          I’m hoping you’ll just walk out the door -directly- after giving notice. A 5 minute notice.

          Had a co-worker give same day notice. On the day she came back from maternity leave, she walked into boss’ office, told them she was giving her notice. Someone said something to the effect of “Please spend the next two weeks wrapping up loose ends…” when she corrected them. “No, no! I’m gone after today.”

          Coulda heard a pin drop.

          Management is still steamed over this.

          Fun to watch, though.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            I was pretty sure I was definitely going to give a full two week’s notice, but now it is really going to depend on how things go after notice is given. Because I’m just not enduring anymore horrors that I don’t have to.
            My company appears to have been having problems with retention that they allegedly want to rectify, so I am also toying with emailing the one HR email address I have finally been able to find and say something like “Hey, I just gave my notice and I would love to share my views on my hiring, onboarding, training, and work experiences with anyone who is interested,” and if they take me up on it share the full scope of the Hellmouth experience with them (and maybe get told that they’ll pay out my two weeks but to feel free to stay home). The only thing that would stop me there is the knowledge that my boss would probably be confronted about a lot of what I shared, and I have learned that she has doggedly sued (and otherwise harassed) previous employees from previous companies for whistle blowing on her shenanigans and getting her fired. She is SUPER VENGEFUL, it turns out.

              1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

                I mean, she has yet to win a case. But she also harasses, and sends glitterbombs, and gets power shut off, and leaves negative online reviews naming the people at their new jobs, and on and on and on and I just do not want to deal with it. I’m already freaked out an exhausted, and missing the days when the things I worried about the most were insane residents, fires, lightning strikes, and weird natural phenomena.

                2. Office Gumby*

                  When you get your new job, is there some way you could alert your new job to the psychotic mess of your old boss, and give them a heads-up that she’s vengeful and will attempt to sabotage you at your new job?

                  Meanwhile, don’t forget to stuff prawn heads into hard-to-find places about your old office on the day you leave. I recommend taping them to the undersides of drawers, etc.

                  Something else I would like to know, what does HR think of all this? Are you able to report everything to them, even if it’s only a matter of record? You’d be surprised how useful records can be, even if stuff doesn’t get acted upon immediately, ESPECIALLY if she does attempt to sue you for whatever. If you can demonstrate a history of abuse and harassment, that will help things go in your favour.

      2. Pilcrow*

        I wonder if the boss truly thinks she’s being subtle about driving off people or if she’s just gone to not caring if everyone knows territory. I have a chilling suspicion she thinks she’s some kind of mastermind manipulating behind the scenes with no one the wiser. Gotta admit, the self-delusion is fascinating (and horrible).

        Hellmouth, you’ve mentioned that her MO is to run people off. Would she ever directly fire someone (if you didn’t complete the impossible number of tasks, for example)? If she won’t, I’m thinking you need to run out of damns to give and only do what is reasonable during your workday. Go the “alien anthropologist” strategy for the rest of the crazy.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Oh, she definitely thinks she’s some kind of mastermind manipulating behind the scenes with no one the wiser. For real. This applies to pretty much everything she does/everyone she messes with–residents, employees, bosses, the company, her neighbors… she brags about it a lot.

          And, yes, if the squeeze doesn’t work she absolutely fires people. She tried to get me to fabricate firing evidence for her for my former leasing consultant (I dodged the task and the consultant put in her notice on the very day my boss had set up with HR to fire her). If I don’t complete the tasks, she will document it and move forward with punishment/potential firing.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      Maybe the frog is letting you know he’s on your side against the bees. Also, once you quit, you could write anonymous reviews on the apartment complex. Though people might not believe that level of crazy. I’m sorry this is happening to you, boss seems like 30 pounds of crazy in a 5 lb. sack. With a hole in it.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Also, is Boss married? Because I bet he’s *fascinating.* Let’s all just take a moment to imagine her dating.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Funny you should mention this, a LOT of negative reviews that name the boss specifically have been going up. She just pulled my good leasing consultant in for a secret conference–she thinks that the former leasing consultant is having people put them up!

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Almost verbatim what she said, but you didn’t include the part where she said it was only happening because she is white.

    4. Colette*

      I’m trying to imagine how finding out that 1 of your 6 employees thinks you are an unavailable supervisor is good news. That’s just baffling.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Clearly more than 1 did, and boss was lying about the results. Boss just couldn’t say that no employees had voted that, because each person knows that at least 1 person did (themselves).

        1. Colette*

          But she didn’t have to mention it at all! This would be like going to a job interview and saying “I’m pleased to say that 75% of the time I show up for my scheduled shifts!”

          2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            I think she mentioned it because she did not expect that any of us would have talked about the survey with each other, and she wanted every one of us to think “Oh, I am the only one with a problem, it must be ME and not her.”

    5. Karen from Finance*

      An additional level of weirdness to all of this is that she has such a clear modus operandi. IIRC from your original letter to Alison, at first your boss had it out for some other poor employee, and you were the one that she treated better than the rest. She has the assigned roles in the little movie she’s scripted in her mind, and just has the players rotating their roles.

      That woman’s certainly a case.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It has definitely become an established pattern. Which means I have no escape until I literally escape.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        And… if I’m being honest, while I want to live for safety/sanity/not-getting-dragged-into-a-nether-dimension reasons, I also REALLY want to give my notice, leave, and hear all about how well McGruff (my clear future replacement) handles both my job and the full on crazy attention of my boss. Because apparently I am Petty Mayonnaise.

        2. Karen from Finance*

          Yeah it’s pretty clear at this point that McGruff is going to become a new target sooner or later.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            McGruff actually yelled that she “was not going to wipe [a resident]’s butt for him!” in front of ANOTHER (unrelated) resident, several times and behaves like an unhinged lunatic, so it is very disturbing that she isn’t legitimately one now, honestly.

        3. Bee's Knees*

          That’s not petty. That’s interest in the survival of our species. Because when Boss loses it, and her head explodes, she’s likely to take the whole complex back into the hellmouth with her.

    6. Antilles*

      On the lighter side, I was greeted with a shower of frog when I came in to work today. […] Also dealing with two flies and some rando unidentified winged insect that are insistent about smacking me in the face right now, which is definitely not the worst insect I’ve experienced here.
      Wow. You’ve moved beyond mere craziness into literal “Biblical Plague from Exodus” territory.

      1. Youth*

        Well, maybe after ten plagues, I Work on a Hellmouth will be let go. Not that that’s ideal–it would be much better if she could quit under her own fire–but at least she’ll be freeeeee.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      OMG I hope your other reasonable leasing agent is also job hunting. Because I feel super bad for both of you. Can you become co-conspirators during the trials and tribulations of these wackadoos?

      1. I work on a Hellmouth*

        They are! I’ve told them to go ahead and use me as a reference, and if either of us sees a job posting the other might be interested in we pass it along. I also steered them over to all of Alison’s resume, cover letter, and job hunting advice. Poor Good Leasing Consultant. They are currently doing their job AND McGruff’s, and the boss keeps sticking them with a ton of manual labor that should really fall to maintenance.

    8. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

      You are the main reason I come in this thread on Fridays. So yeaa for that! And that psycho fosters cats??? Oh nooo… now my eye is twitching. Also, I missed what was going on with court and Squirrel Guy. No idea how.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Whoops! I know I’ve mentioned Squirrel Guy before (he is the scary now former resident who wanted me to go alone into the woods with him so he point out the specific squirrel that has been harassing him off and on for several years), but the seeing me in court thing is new. See, homeslice did not think he should have to pay his amenity fee and started omitting it from his rent. We explained that he had to pay it. He told us to go do something unpleasant and probably anatomically impossible. He moved out. We took the balance out of his security deposit. It has been a never ending string of crazy phone calls and legal threats since.

    9. RabbitRabbit*

      I’d probably double-down on any semi-“personal” stuff around her with a boilerplate “It is inappropriate for me to address personal matters on work time.”
      Hello/goodbye? “It is inappropriate for me to address personal matters on work time.”
      What are you doing for the weekend? “It is inappropriate for me to address personal matters on work time.”
      Do you like my kitty/Mardi Gras bullshit? “It is inappropriate for me to address personal matters on work time.”

      Oh, and headphones.

    10. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      TERRIFYING WACKADOO DEVELOPMENT: I had a stack of checks to run, but needed to clock out for my assigned lunch time. I paper clipped the checks and put them in the check bag. When I came back and went to run them, and they were GONE.

      Had small heart attack. Eventually they were found wedged underneath the super heavy table/cabinet thing the check scanner sits on. No way for them to fall there or wind up there by accident. And there were checks there from the bank bag that were NOT in the original grouping of paper clipped checks. And the only person to go into the bank bag while I was at lunch WAS MY BOSS.

      Going to go hyperventilate now.

      3. Dude get out!*

        Dude, at this point I run a restaurant in New Orleans, why don’t you just come bartend for me? I’ll teach ya everything you need to know.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Alas, New Orleans is a bit too far for me to commute. But if it were viable, I’d definitely consider it at this point.

    11. only acting normal*

      Hmm. Frogs, insects, wild animals… watch out for rivers of blood, and if you have a first-born keep that kid safe.

    12. Office Gumby*

      Honestly, I’d be seriously tempted to mess with your boss by gaslighting her in strange ways.

      Walking into her office with a strange look on my face, ‘Here’s that piece of [blank] paper you asked me for. But why did you ask for three coffee rings on it?” Obviously, she’d deny it. My response, [side-eye] “Yeah. Whatever you say.”

      Helps if you have a sympathetic co-worker who can ‘witness’ that she’d made that strange request.

  66. Construction Safety*

    I guess we’re in the market for a new BD Guy. Over heard two bosses while they looked at his house on google & commented that they could pay him less that they were originally thinking.

    Also, because he’s at the “end of his career”, they can pay him less.

    Guy wants to do a lot of WFH (different city), but they want him in the office when he’s not on the road. Just because.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Sounds like reality to me. Which is why I am planning to save money like a crazy woman and don’t plan to “need” a job in the EPC industry when I’m 60. I’ve interviewed many guys with 30-40 years of experience for PM roles requiring 10-20 years of experience who had previously climbed the ladder to VPs at companies focused on designing and building older technologies. There aren’t that many options for $150,000+ jobs.

      It still kind of a raw deal. So many people still want to work just to stay busy.

    4. Kat in VA*

      See, this scares me. I know a few people at work have Googled my house and I have, without hesitation, a really big house (roughly 7000 feet). I’m afraid people will think I’m overpaid and why do I need to paid what I’m making if I have the money for said house? (House was bought with a combination of several fortuitous events.)

  67. ADKay*

    The evening before a scheduled phone interview, the recruiter notified me that it was actually going to be a VIDEO interview and instructed me to go to a specific videoconferencing site. I had to scramble to make proper arrangements (I currently do not own a laptop with a working mike, for example), and I was annoyed at the short notice. Has anyone else experienced this when job searching?

    I’m not looking for advice on video interviews, BTW.

    1. CheeryO*

      Yeah, that’s pretty short notice. I had a Skype interview a few years back, and I was vaguely annoyed that they just assumed that I had a good laptop laying around (I did not, and the extra few days’ notice didn’t help with the whole being broke part!).

    3. AliP*

      I had a weird interview once where they used this specific video software, but it was just me answering questions and prompts for the interviewer to view at a later time. If you passed this initial screen thing, an actual person-to-person interview would be set up. It was really odd and uncomfortable! The mutuality of the normal interview process was totally missing, it was just you pitching yourself without really knowing if you wanted the job.

      1. only acting normal*

        Ugh. My work has started using that. I am so sorry. I have fed back that it is ridiculous/horrible/off-putting for good candidates (which we are struggling to attract already).

    4. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Yes, multiple times. I noticed that in many cases HR/recruiters assume that you have your laptop nearby, which sometimes is just not possible. I had to ask to reschedule once because a recruiter used Google Meet instead of Hangouts, and the app wasn’t available for my humble mobile phone (a Moto E 2nd Gen).

    5. ADKay*

      Thanks, everyone. As it turned out, the recruiter neglected to tell me I also needed to install a conferencing app, so the interview was audio-only after all. Since there were other red flags as well, I’m giving this position a hard pass.

  68. RealLifeDaria*

    My workplace is looking to switch our customer service team from salary to hourly (we are not located in the US). Has anyone been through this kind of change? Did you implement any kind of change management strategies? Any suggestions/anecdotes would be greatly appreciated! We are a mid-sized company with about 150 employees that would be switching over.

    Thanks in advance!

  69. Worried*

    What’s the best course of action when you can tell that you’re starting to let your work slip? I’ve been at this company for a year, it turns out I don’t believe in the work, having my own clients for the first time gives me constant anxiety, and my boss is…a lot. I’m concerned that the company is going to go under anyway because I’ve overheard several really, really concerning conversations/arguments between my boss (the CEO) and our accounting admin (think covering up tax fraud that hasn’t been found out yet and operating in the red for 18 months straight). I’ve been looking for a new job since December without much luck. I can’t afford to quit without something lined up, and I’ve been saving as much as possible just in case.

    But in the meantime, I’m finding that I just don’t care about doing a good job anymore. I’m starting to miss deadlines, not respond to client emails, and just let things fall through the cracks. I’ve never been this way before. I’m typically a high performer who produces excellent work and never lets things slip. How do people who are miserable at work force themselves to perform well even in tough circumstances?

    1. Soveryanon*

      Wow, yikes! I know it’s tough to stay motivated, but really try to focus on doing at least the minimum you need to do to not get fired. I would also recommend looking into picking up a side gig (part time job or whatever) that will help you save that much faster towards your exit. Good luck!

    2. LilySparrow*

      There’s a post on Captain Awkward called “How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed.” It’s got some very practical tips that might apply equally well to your situation.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      My go-to is to stop working for the boss and start working for my resume/interviews. Pick things to do that you can use on your resume or on your interview, you will need stuff to talk about so go ahead and generate that stuff now. Tell yourself, “oh x would look great on my resume.” Or, “Y would be excellent to talk about in interviews.”

  70. bookclubgonewrong*

    Book Club Gone Wrong

    TLDR: Any advice on how to gracefully extricate yourself from a horrible work book club?

    One co-worker I really like wanted to start a book-club and I joined, it was 8-10 women, similarly aged, across multiple departments, all the same “staff level”. It was supposed to be a rotation, one person picking a book with no real “guidelines” (see where this is going).

    Problem #1 So far I am the only person to read books 1-3, Problem #2 Book four was very religious self-help and I refused to read it (my reaction was very strong), she picked another book.

    Problem #3 When she picked the book she said “Also- just a side note. I think the intention of Book Club is to give everyone free range on what they select & hopefully get some folks to dabble in genres they typically wouldn’t select, but if you don’t like the book selection, just don’t read it. :) You can always join for the company & pick back up on the next one that interests you.”

    Problem #4 at the last meeting, there was some pretty intense passive-aggressive mean girl crap directed toward me.

    Question: My company strongly encourages this sort of non-work social stuff between departments, I need to work with this collective group, I am over this non-sense, how do I “get out”?

    Thanks!!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      It sounds like people have been pretty clear that, within the group dynamic, they would have preferred you just choose to opt out of reading the religious book and that asking the person to change their choice wasn’t the right move. Nobody’s right or wrong here necessarily, but I don’t think anyone would be surprised if you kind of do the slow fade at this point. You’re going to be on vacation for the next meeting, then you’re about to get busy at work, then whoops you didn’t have time to read the book, then you’ve realized you don’t have time in your schedule but you hope they have a good time and you hope to see them at (x other activity), maybe?

      1. Boredatwork*

        As a dynamic clarification – when the book was announced there were four “active members” 2/4 had FEELING about this book. After my strong reaction, I back pedaled as hard as I could, and said I would read whatever she chose.

        Then the group got the above email. The meeting had 8 people, 2/8 had read the book this time. It was at this meeting I was “mean girled” about my initial reaction.

        This was the first book that was in the “sex, politics, religion” category.

      2. bookclubgonewrong*

        I think this is the crux of the problem. I want to have a book club with rules (no sex, religion of politics, since it’s work) and they really want to just get dinner and pretend to read the books.

        And honestly, I would happily read the book and rip it to shreds, but it’s work, and I have to play nice.

        1. valentine*

          Just quit or say your schedule’s changed (leaving them to their happy hour).

          Funny that they don’t have to play nice.

    2. Oxford Comma*

      Are you the only one who feels the same way about the book selections? Are you okay with this not working and possibly finding some other kind of social activity that might suit better?

      If you want out, I think there are three options:
      1. Just say it’s not your cup of tea. That’s the most direct, but might not go down so well.
      2. Start sporadically attending and state you have other outside commitments keeping you from attending and gradually stop going.
      3.Blame bowing out on something else (other time pressures)

      1. bookclubgonewrong*

        When she announced the choice it was 2/4 strongly against. The rest of the group is honestly just looking for a social lunch/pretend like they’re in a book club.

        Yeh, I think the slow fade might be the way to go. I think the real issue is I’m annoyed I’m the only one reading the books, and then being chastised for having an opinion about content.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Sometimes I have to acknowledge that I’m out of sync with the group and that it’s not working for me anymore – no harm, no foul! You sound enthusiastic for a real meaty discussion – maybe there is another book group that meets this need better, that won’t have the coworker conflict issue. Also, politely disengage if one of the other sh*t-stirrers tries to convince you to stay. I have realized some people love drama, especially other people’s drama that they can stay out of but cheer on behind people’s backs. Book clubs and mom’s groups seem to bring out this type somehow.

          1. bookclubgonewrong*

            This is great advice. I’m worried the “founder” is going to try to convince me to stay. Honestly, she was the one stirring up the desire to dissent from “religious” book and then left me to take the fall out when I shared our joint opinion. She could have easily, said, I agree with “OP” and would prefer something else.

            Lesson learned.

              1. Psyche*

                I think the slow fade could work. But if you want to just rip off the bandaid, I don’t think there is a problem with saying, “You know, I’ve realized that I would really prefer to be in a book club with more rules about what books are picked. I don’t think this book club is for me, but I hope you all have fun!”

                1. OP*

                  I think being this specific is just going to be taken as an invite for them to negotiate. “I realized I don’t have time to fit this into my weeknights” or whatever is taking ownership of the feelings and *should* be harder to push back on. Even “I realized it’s just not for me,” but said in a pleasant and cheery tone, could work if you don’t want to do the slow fade.

                3. bookclubgonewrong*

                  That’s a good point, since I HAVE been the only one to actually make time to read the books, it’s a harder lie to say I don’t have time because, I do, I also read a lot of books anyway.

                  The truth is I have zero desire to go to a fake book club where no one reads the books, especially when I find the books picked to be problematic in work a work setting.

                  I mentioned adding rules, and that promoted the email referenced about and the snark.

                  Every petty bone of my body wants to pick some horrific pro-trump book when it’s my turn to pick. There’s also a 1000+ page biography on Grant that’s supposed to be superb….

                4. bookclubgonewrong*

                  I feel like this is the advice Alison would give me, be kind, be direct, and be honest. I feel bad lying, I have time to read, my company strongly encourages this sort of thing, I just can’t stand being in a fake book club where they’re picking things that are problematic in a work setting.

                5. Natalie*

                  @book club, I think it’s perfectly accurate/direct to say that you prefer a book club where the majority of people read the book. There’s not much of a hook for them to hang an argument on – it’s your preference, and it’s based on past performance. But if you really need a euphemism, how about “more structured”?

                6. Gumby*

                  One of my book clubs had to admit defeat when the chosen book was Joyce’s “Ulysses” – only one person finished (it was not me). This is a group in which multiple people managed all of “Democracy in America” – we were fairly eclectic in our selections – “Coraline” was probably the furthest away from those on the length-and-difficulty scale.

                7. Psyche*

                  @bookclub: I think it actually makes it easier that you suggested a change and it was shot down. It means if you back out they probably aren’t going to try to talk you out of it and promise to change.

            2. Sloan Kittering*

              Yep, so so familiar with this type. I don’t think this person is bad or anything, but I think your number one priority needs to be harmonious work relationships for yourself, and that’s probably not her number one goal, especially if she’s bored.

              1. bookclubgonewrong*

                Thanks for weighing in, I’m going to extricate myself before I do any real damage to these professional relationships.

                I’m not sure how many more “meetings” I can attend where people brag about not even attempting to read the book before I say something NSFW.

    3. JudyInDisguise*

      For me, the minute the snark and passive aggressive stuff started flying in my direction I’d simply ask: “Is this fun for you? Because this isn’t fun for me anymore.” and then I’d leave.

      1. bookclubgonewrong*

        oh lord, we were in a restaurant, and we carpooled. Otherwise, I would have gotten an “emergency” call and just peace’d out.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Two more options:

      1. Cheerfully ask if it would be more fun for everyone to just make it a “supper club”.
      2. Slow fade and after a suitable interval start a (specific kind of) book club with rules.

    5. Doctor is In*

      My book club changed its format to one that works better for us. Instead of all reading the same book, each person brings a book they liked and talks about it. Great for finding your next read.

  71. Rebecca*

    Job vs career – been thinking about this a lot the last month or so. Company is getting big on “personal development” and learning, 7 Habits stuff, and all sorts of improvement, excelling at job skills, etc. We have meetings to discuss these things, and now it’s been suggested that we read books, take courses, etc.

    But – this is just a job. There is no real room for advancement, it’s a privately held family company, so family members hold the upper level jobs unless they’re highly specialized, like IT. We’re non-exempt office workers, no real evaluations or regular raises, or reward for doing a better job than someone else. We do receive small bonuses at the end of the year, but it’s the same for everyone, regardless of skill level or work ability. I guess someone could take advantage of these things to improve and then go to another company to get a better job?

    And that’s where I am. This is a job, a means to an end to pay bills and have health insurance. That’s all it is. I do my best while I’m here, but aside from that, I have no burning desire to read management books, or sit through endless power point presentations about the latest, greatest Google initiative. I know this seems like I have a terrible attitude, and may be I do, but really, I just want to come to work, do my job, and go home and get money for it. Management has decided this is a one size fits all program. Maybe I’d feel differently if there was some reward at the end? Honestly, I have 11 more years until retirement, and I’ll be very glad when I can put the regular work week behind me.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Same here. I like my job but there is nowhere for me to go with it without investing in a lot more education (which I can’t afford and am not particularly inclined to do). I’ve been a supervisor before and I neither enjoy nor am particularly good at managing people.

    2. Boredatwork*

      I completely understand. I’m at the same point. I like my job, I’m good at it, but I’m never going to be promoted (mature department, huge company). I’m okay with this, but there’s a ton of pressure, exactly as you described.

      What I do it just play along, as long as it’s during work hours, I’ll do whatever they want. I’m not reading management books on the weekends but if they want to spend actual work time on this stuff, that’s on them.

      1. Rebecca*

        I’m going to push back on the extra reading and courses. I’m non-exempt. If I’m not in the office, either I get paid time and a half to do this stuff, or I do it during work hours, and the work I am supposed to do won’t get done. Of course I’ll use a phrase like “since I’m non-exempt, and we don’t want to run afoul of labor laws, would you prefer that I do this during regular work hours, as I have time, or at set times after work, at home, and how should I keep track of those hours for payroll reasons?”

  72. crinkly spine*

    Hey, I posted a month or so back and got some good advice and hoping I can pick everyone’s brains again (since they are such good brains)…

    Short version: trying to find a field I can start anew in after having been shut out of previous field after abuse. Ideally I would be working from home, but jobs with minimal physical activity are OK too (I’m disabled). Does anyone have any ideas for career-type fields to look into? My resume as it stands now is functionally unusable. I’m good with words, visual art, managing people, keeping groups on schedule, social media work, product design & creation, art direction, etc. I can take on schooling if there is a stable job market at the end of it. Previously worked in a nerd-culture-related field doing a lot of work with artists and writers, managing people remotely, etc.

    I wouldn’t mind looking for jobs in game development because it hits on basically every skill I’ve nourished in myself, but it’s often a nasty field and laced through with people who I wouldn’t want to work with–plus it’s very “who you know” and softer skills (managing people productively and not by fear, social media and customer service work, all the stuff that gets coded “feminine”) are often devalued. I don’t know what else my skills would be a good fit for.

    Hope everyone is having a great Friday! I’m going to be baking some peasant bread today from a very easy recipe I like a lot, and maybe try to start a chocolate babka this evening if I have the energy remaining. (It can rest in the middle of the recipe, so I can start it tonight and finish it tomorrow.)

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Possibly editing? I once met someone who edited textbooks/cookbooks/etc. from home and it sounded super interesting.

      Good luck on the babka! I made one for Christmas morning and it was a huge hit with the family.

      1. crinkly spine*

        That would be wonderful, honestly. I’ve done some before (I’d love to get specific but don’t feel safe doing so, but it was a great experience managing a large team to get content out more or less daily (or more)) but because of the resume problem, I wouldn’t know where to start. I am pretty confident in my skills there, just… don’t know how to get a foot in the door. Do you have any ideas? (Totally understand if not, just figured I’d ask! It’s a lovely idea.)

        And thank you! It’s from the same recipe site as the peasant bread and looks sooo good… never made babka before but it’s based on a challah recipe and I *have* made challah, so we’ll see!

        Thank you!!

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          Check out flexjobs for remote postings – I don’t know specific companies that do remote editing, but checking out the major publishers may be a good start! Possibly starting out somewhere as a proofreader and then growing into a full scale editing role. And highlight your transferable skills from your other jobs to show the editing and proofreading skills in your cover letter and resume!

          It was so good-I overfilled with the chocolate sauce though so it came out way messier than intended! And since it’s a sweet dough, it goes well for a long prove so if you need to leave it over night it’s all good!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            @crinkly spine
            FYI—flexjobs is a pay site. You have to pay a subscription fee to even see the jobs.

            I’ve seen a lot of proofreader and editorial assistant jobs for publishers listed at Indeed, but most of them are contract and/or part-time and none of them are remote.* If you live where they are, fine, but just be aware of this.

            *Don’t get me started on how this favors mostly white, elite, trust-fund babies.

            2. crinkly spine*

              I’m not where they are (from my knowledge, they’re largely in NYC) but I’d be happy to get you started, since I completely agree and it’s sometimes comforting to hear others who agree… I can’t move at present as I have health insurance through the state and my healthcare providers are here. So NYC is out.

              It makes me especially annoyed b/c it’s a field that can often be really well done from home… but work from home is what lazy people do! Gotta suffer to have a real job!

              Thanks for the heads up on flexjobs… guess I’ll keep an eye out on Indeed and cross my fingers.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I know, right? It’s perfect for remote work. I guess it’s because they want you in meetings, but duh, the world has Skype/Lync, WebEx, and the frickin’ telephone.

          2. crinkly spine*

            Thank you! I would enjoy proofreading, I think; kind of mind-numbing but I’ve always liked it.

            Highlighting skills is hard. Maybe you have thoughts on this. I have done a lot of those things for my old job, but I often was uncredited or the places where my work was available have been removed. How can I “prove” it if they’re asking for links? That’s been a problem w/ a lot of the social media jobs I’ve seen–they want links to your brand engagement or whatever, but mine no longer exist.

        2. n*

          Editing is a fantastic job if you love words. However, since you mentioned that a stable job market is important to you, I’d caution that it can be a tough field to break into at this time. As other commenters have mentioned, a lot of the work available right now is part-time and/or contract. So you have to constantly hustle to ensure you have enough work for yourself. That can be fine if you’re good at hustling/self-promotion. But just something to keep in mind.

          1. n*

            Or if you find an entry-level role, the pay is often pretty low… like… $30-$40k/year, depending on the market.

            1. crinkly spine*

              Yeah, I mean, that’s much lower than I’d like, but I’m unemployed right now, so anything’s an improvement. You’re completely dead-on about the stability of the field, though, thank you. Probably not my best option right now, I guess. Thanks for the reality check.

      1. crinkly spine*

        No, but I’ll try pretty much anything. Would you be willing to share any wisdom about how someone gets into those fields?

        1. n*

          I am still trying to figure that out myself, lol.

          I do content strategy right now. I taught myself web design when I was a kid in the late 90s/early 2000s. I also loved writing, so had what was, at the time, a diverse skill set. I was able to slot into roles that required using a lot of content management tools. But after doing that for a while, I’m interested in design again, so I’m back in school to focus on that. I chose school because I like very structured learning environments, but it’s possible to teach yourself, build up a portfolio, and then apply to jobs.

          UX jobs, in particular, are really hot right now, so if you can build a good portfolio, you should have a decent shot.

          There are a *ton* of resources online. Lynda/LinkedIn has some really good courses to take if you just want to learn about the field and get a sense of whether or not this is something you’d be interested in and if so, where your interest lies. (And there’s always YouTube). If there are code academies/boot camps/tech incubators in your area, they very often host networking events where you can go and meet people in the field and pick their brains. If you decide to proceed from there, you can teach yourself code and design via online resources (free like Free Code Camp or Coursera, or paid, like coding boot camps) or you can check out degree programs in human-computer interaction or web design/development. Community colleges often have at least a certificate option, and that’s often a good way to get your foot in the door.

  73. Jane Victoria*

    Just curious–what first aid supplies do you all stock/would you expect to find in a “normal” office (think–the most hazardous items we use are glue and scissors). Band-aids, tylenol, cold pack? Would you expect/be appreciative if there was an emergency stash of sanitary napkins and tampons, just in case?

    1. Murphy*

      Would not expect, but would be appreciative!

      I’d expect bandaids, alcohol wipes, maybe a cold pack. Nothing you wouldn’t find in an actual first aid kit.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Band-aids, advil, cough drops, and immodium are my must-haves in my desk. The reference desk at the library I work in has a supply of pads and tampons, which is nice.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Legally offices here are required to have a #2 first aid kit, which contains band-aids, gauze, safety pins, alcohol wipes, little scissors, and some other basic use stuff. We also buy a LOT of over the counter antibiotic ointment for the multitude of paper and cardboard cuts and other small injuries and I also shelled out for half a dozen pairs of tweezers because of all the splinters.

      Thing is, work pays for things to deal with work problems. If you have a headache, that’s not your employer’s fault. You need to buy your own Tylenol. Same with sanitary napkins and tampons. You’re an adult, it’s really on you to make sure you have what you need for your health related matters.

      Now, the women in this office have a sort of communal supply of stuff that we keep in the bathrooms, and there’s three or four people who have painkillers in their desk they’d be happy to share. But that’s not work regulated or paid for because… that’s not our responsibility. And on a personal note, it wouldn’t help me, with all my allergies I can only use certain select things anyway.

      1. WellRed*

        “If you have a headache, that’s not your employer’s fault.”

        I wouldn’t be too sure about that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ha!

          Seriously though, I think there might be a problem with dispensing even though the products are OTCs.

    4. Oxford Comma*

      We have the stash of sanitary products. I don’t know if new hires are even aware we have them, though.

      As for first aid supplies, I would think the standard kits they sell in drugstores would be enough: band-aids of various sizes, gauze, scissors, some OTC pain relief items, cold pack, maybe some neosporin?

    5. crinkly spine*

      I’m an unusual case because I have various experiences that mean I’m always overprepared medically, but…

      Neosporin/bacitracin ointment for sure. Multiple types of painkillers if possible (some are processed thru the kidneys, some thru the liver; it’s nice to have options if one of those is less ideal for someone). I personally keep (buffered) aspirin/tylenol/advil/exedrin because they’re all slightly different and may address different needs. (E.g. if I feel a headache that COULD become a migraine, I’ll start w/ the aspirin, because it’s safer to take exedrin on top of that than it is on top of advil.)

      I agree w/ the other commenter who says that work pays to deal with work problems, but I’d err towards keeping menstrual supplies in the first aid pack anyway, because let’s be real–if someone has an emergency and needs those supplies, it’s going to be cheaper to supply them than to get a chair cleaned (or whatever). The cheapest level of pads aren’t going to be anybody’s favorite anyway so they’ll probably be strictly for necessity. Better to have and not need, etc.

      Gauze strips and first-aid tape is good to have on hand just in case. Multiple types of bandaids if possible, especially if someone in the office (I don’t know how large your office is, whether you know everyone’s allergies) is allergic to latex. Nitrile gloves are also good to have on hand in case there is a first aid situation where someone is going to have to bandage up someone else.

      But: I’m an over-preparer so take this all with a grain of salt.

    6. Not All*

      I’m the safety officer for my office. I keep us stocked with:
      -an assortment of bandaids & neosporin
      -antihistamines
      -anti-diarrheal tablets
      -aspirin
      -ibuprofen
      -naproxen (Aleve)
      -antacids
      -motion-sickness tablets
      -insect sting/bite swabs
      -disinfectant/alcohol wipes
      -a couple pre-packaged 1st Aid kits that include bigger gauze wraps, scissors, etc

      Our office doesn’t officially stock them (because government!), but the women take turns making sure one of the restrooms has sanitary products, some good quality hand lotion, and Static Guard. The public restrooms have coin-dispensed sanitary products but who on earth carries change anymore??

    7. Wishing You Well*

      If I could, I would have antacids along with the other typical first aid stuff. (I work in a school, so I can’t have anything resembling a pill with me or on me. No desk, either.)

    8. Spreadsheets and Books*

      We (white collar office, no immediate risks to health) stock pretty much everything in a Cintas industrial first aid kits that hand on the wall (and we have pads and tampons in the bathroom). Every kind of OTC cold/pain medication, like 10 sizes of bandages, topical gels for burns/cuts, cotton swabs, alcohol wipes, lens cleaner, gauze squares and wraps, tourniquets, glucose, thermometers, a blood-borne infection kit, etc.

    9. Junior Dev*

      Gonna disagree with the people saying it is not work’s responsibility to have pads and tampons, and say you should provide those things if it is in the budget. It’s not really part of a first aid kit though–they make most sense in the bathroom.

    10. Garland not Andrews*

      One thing I have not seen addressed is burn cream/ointment. If you have a coffee pot or microwave, it can be needed.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There is a lot of HR hard nosed advice that is anti-pain meds just as an FYI.

      I don’t subscribe to the fear they spout. But some do. It may be a liability issue is the short version.

      Just look at the industrial first aid kits for their stock!

      I would love free sanitary products but only had one employer who offered that. It was my first job in 2003. Never again has it been a perk.

    12. Drago Cucina*

      We have two of the “First Aid Kit Hard Red Case 326 Pieces Exceeds OSHA and ANSI Guidelines 100 People” that is carried by Amazon. We have one in our public main desk and one in the staff restroom. I’m big into making sure the staff use gloves when touching or treating another person’s injury. The HepC lecture ended with a lot of big eyes.
      The First Aid Kit includes:
      – CLEAN –
      21 Antiseptic Towelettes
      36 Alcohol Prep Pads
      6 Sting Relief Pads

      – TREAT –
      6 Ointment Packets
      6 Burn Cream Ointments
      10 Antacid Tablets
      10 Aspirin Tablets
      10 Non-Aspirin Tablets
      1 Instant Cold Compress 6″ x 9″
      1 English First Aid Guide
      1 Spanish First Aid Guide

      – PROTECT –
      20 Adhesive Bandages 1″ x 3″
      50 Adhesive Bandages 3/8″ x 1-1/2″
      60 Adhesive Bandages 3″ x 3/4″
      10 Butterfly Closures Bandages
      18 Wound Closure Strips 1/4″ x 1-1/2″
      2 Gauze Rolls 2″ x 4.1 yards
      2 Eye Pads
      8 Sterile Gauze Pads 2″ x 2″
      4 Sterile Gauze Pads 4″ x 4″
      1 Sterile Trauma Pad 5″ x 9″

      – ADDITIONAL SUPPLIES –
      30 Cotton Tip Applicators
      1 Adhesive Tape Roll 1″ x 5 yards
      5 Finger Splints
      1 Triangular Bandage 40″ x 40″ x 56″
      1 Tweezers
      1 Metal Scissor
      4 Nitrile Examination Gloves

    13. just a random teacher*

      Big picture question: what are you willing to train people to use? I tend to work in environments where we have not just the regular first aid kits, but also things like an AED and an “emergency” EpiPen that require trained staff to use. (I live in a state where anyone can get a “for use on others” prescription for an EpiPen after a 1-2 hour training with no other medical background.) I work in a school, though, so we have a different set-up than a typical office.

      It’s possibly worth working with HR or any other knowledgeable party to see if there are any specific reasons why in your office you should have some people trained in administering an EpiPen/Glucagon/other fun emergency drugs and keep that in mind as you build your first aid kit or locked med cabinet. (I’m currently certified in both EpiPen, which in my state means I can, technically, administer that to anyone I feel is having a relevant allergic reaction and get a prescription to buy the drug and carry it for that purpose if I want to, and Glucagon, which I can only administer to people with a specific prescription as part of a specific protocol just because my state basically doesn’t do school nurses so teachers get to be trained on how to inject meds instead. (I don’t even have to have a current first aid certification to inject students with Glucagon! I pretty much just needed to have the manual dexterity and lack of squeamishness to get through a training that involve sticking needles into training objects after filling syringes with water.)

      Failing those kinds of circumstances, as someone who used to sprain my ankle a lot, I’d appreciate an ace bandage and some ibuprofen in an office first aid kit. I tend to carry both of those things, but it took me quite a few twisted ankles to decide to go ahead and keep those handy.

  74. Youth*

    I often notice fun references in AAM usernames. A few references of varying levels of obscurity that I’ve noticed recently: Carousel of Color, Cimorene, Jason Funderberker, Zaphod Beeblebrox.

    Don’t feel like you need to reveal your true identity or share anything you’re not comfortable with, but if your username is a reference or has a fun story, I’d love to hear about it.

    1. Youth*

      I’ll start: as a teenager, I wrote (one piece of) humor fanfiction for Mugglenet. You had to choose a unique username. I was a pretentious teen, so I chose the name “Youth,” since a biography I’d read said that Mark Twain signed letters “Youth” when he was younger. (I just went to verify this is true, but I can’t find it on the web.) Ahhhhhbviously I wanted to be associated with a successful writer. I also liked that it was obscure because, again, pretentious.

      Anyway, I’m apparently still pretentious, because when I was choosing a username for this site, that one came to mind.

    2. Murphy*

      Murphy sounds pretty generic, but I actually took it from Karrin Murphy in the Dresden Files. It’s just what I came up with on the spot since I didn’t want to use my typical online username.

      2. Youth*

        Interesting! I would never have guessed that there was a story behind yours since yeah, it does seem pretty generic. Thanks for sharing!

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Someone a few months back wanted an adulting fairy to come down and tell her it was okay to not do something. I was feeling silly, so I became an adulting fairy, and never changed it back. (The rest is boring, I have red hair and read voraciously.)

    8. Liane*

      Mine is just a combo of my first & middle names. I save my fandom names for comments/questions, mostly Star Trek and Star Wars. (I was the LW for a short answer question & update last year about mentioning my friend Leia, who had sadly passed away a few months after referring me to openings at her last employer.)

    9. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

      I love love love Star Wars’ Grand Admiral Thrawn. And now I have a new love to lust after… Florian Munteanu, the newbie Romanian actor who played Viktor Drago in Creed 2. I’m not kidding when I say he is big; basically he’s mountain sized.

      1. Youth*

        I’d never heard of Thrawn before looking him up just now. I don’t know how–my little sister LOVES Star Wars and got married on Star Wars Day.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Thrawn hasn’t been in the movies, so anyone who’s a fan only via that route would never have heard of him, most likely. Most people run into him via the Star Wars: Rebels animated series, or books.

          1. Youth*

            I think she considers herself well-versed in a few different areas of the Star Wars fandom, but I’m not super into it so we don’t talk about it a ton. I’ll ask her to satisfy my curiosity.

    11. Pilcrow*

      I’m a technical writer. The pilcrow (¶) is the symbol used in most word processors and text editors to show the end of a paragraph. (There’s more to it, but that is where most people have seen the symbol.) I pretty much always have the paragraph/typography marks showing while working.

      I started out here as Solidus Pilcrow (the solidus is basically a forward slash – / -) because I thought it was a cool name. I got tired of the Solidus bit.

      1. Youth*

        Wait, that’s what it’s called?! I’m a writer too and am familiar with the symbol, but I didn’t know that’s what it was called. Maybe because I don’t do technical writing.

        1. Pilcrow*

          I don’t remember when I first learned its name. Maybe in college studying publishing and printing? Tech writers don’t really have any special need to know the name of the symbol. Just a cool bit of trivia.

    12. Sam Sepiol*

      Sam Sepiol is Elliott’s alias in Mr robot. I probably wouldn’t have watched the show if it hadn’t been for comments here on open threads so it seemed appropriate. afaik no one has recognised it.

      I change names quite regularly for fear of someone putting together to much information and making myself identifiable. It sucks because I think people don’t realise it’s me; I got A LOT of support here when planning to leave my ex. But online safety and security and all that

    13. Grandma Mazur*

      Nothing esoteric, just a character from the Stephanie Plum novels by Janet Evanovich novels, as I was rereading them at the time I first posted. I’m not a Grandma but she’s always getting into trouble (which I identify with).

      2. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        Oh, she is awesome, Grandma Mazur. I think she is where Stephanie gets her own crazy from.

    16. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

      Mine is after an odd character in James Thurber’s book _The Thirteen Clocks_, from which I am prone to quoting “that’s logic, as I know and use it.”

    19. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      I’ve had a few usernames. I’m a comic book fan so I called myself “Harvey P. Carr,” after Harvey Pekar of “American Splendor” fame. Then I decided to go with “Stan Lee (not the famous one)” but stopped using it after the real Stan Lee died because I didn’t think it was appropriate, went back to “Harvey P. Carr” but realized that many here have whimsical names, so I’m currently “Iron Chef Boyardee,” a combination of Iron Chef and Chef Boyardee – from the days when I used to lurk in an Iron Chef messageboard and many of the participants called themselves Iron Chef whatever-they-liked-to-eat. Allez canned cuisine!

  75. Amber Rose*

    Anyone else struggle with letting go of little things?

    I was spoken to about using my cell phone too much at work, which is ridiculous to me because what I’m usually using is the calculator, for work, or listening to music, which is allowed. And my first instinct was “THIS IS THE HILL I WILL DIE ON” which is also ridiculous because it’s not that big of a deal to use a different calculator, just sort of inconvenient. The problem isn’t really this thing, this is just the symptom of the larger problem which is all of us being treated like small children instead of grown-ass adults. I wasn’t actually talked to, I was threatened with a write-up and had no option to respond. :/

    But because there’s nothing I can do about the larger problems, I find myself getting over worked up about the smaller problems and letting them go is getting increasingly difficult. I understand that I have a temper as well.

    How do you not let your anger/frustration over large problems blow the little ones out of proportion?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      It’s hard not to get defensive when you get corrected. I have the same issue. It brings out my inner teenager. It can be true that this org is not the right one for you (too micromanage-y and Alison has talked about “getting written up” particularly as dumb) but also that you need to keep this job without making waves until you get to the next stage in your career. I’ve gotten in the habit of trying to take pride in receiving negative feedback neutrally. Listening without a b*tch face, maybe taking notes if I need something to do, and then saying something like, “thank you for letting me know.” This is a skill that can be practiced. Try to reframe it – they have actually helped you by giving you important information about what this org values and how you could be making a poor impression without realizing it. Try to separate out your judgement of if it is warranted or deserved for now. You will go on to better things and better workplaces.

      1. Youth*

        I think it’s helpful to try to emotionally disconnect from your job a bit. Maybe try not caring a little. Not to the point where you’re not doing your job, but to the point where it just becomes some thing you have to do like everything else. The more you care, the more likely you are to react.

    2. BRR*

      I have some go to topics to think about. For me, it’s about catching myself before I’m in too deep with frustration and focusing on something, anything else.

      I might also get up and go get a glass of water or something to just get away from my desk.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I practice breathing exercises in the moment. Then I look for new jobs at night. That’s my fuel for flight, don’t chastise me. Ever. I beat myself up enough over legit errors or issues and everyone knows it.

      Nitpicking and childish games are my “lol bye” button.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You’re job hunting, right? I can’t remember,sorry.

      When people are micromanaged they typically get pretty worked up over small things. Picture a caged dog pacing back and forth. This is the people version of that dog. So you are having a pretty normal human response to other people’s stupidity. (Not trying to liken you to a dog but rather to point out that no being likes confinement of any sort.)

      At one job I successfully convinced myself to float over the top of all of it. Whatever they asked, I just did it like it was a piece of cake to me. After a bit, I think I scared them. Everyone else was complaining but my day and my life just went on. They couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t melting down and they left me alone more.

      Get extra rest and make sure you stay hydrated. This stuff eventually pulls vitamins and minerals out of our bodies because stress causes this reaction. Fortify your body in as many ways as possible. This will help your brain not to derail and you will be freer just to focus on your work. Step up the job search as often as possible.

    5. Need to think of a name*

      I always say it’s the little things that people quit a job over not the big things. The little things are like a dripping tap when suddenly it becomes too much.

    6. Dr. Anonymous*

      Also, how do you keep from just singing weird, annoying, tuneless little songs to yourself all day instead of using your cell phone? I’d be so tempted.

  76. And Now A Mouse*

    TLDR – Who do I use as references when my most recent managers are all still at my current employer?

    My previous job was in a completely different industry, and over 5 years I worked my way up from entry level to a manager position (that I hated), where I was very loosely supervised (no 1x1s, no on site presence of my manager, very hands off except to tell me when things were not going well – which was frequently because I was severely understaffed and had no support from my management). I burned out HARD, and 7 years ago I moved to a new city and switched careers and came on at the company where I am now, started slightly above entry level, continued to work my way up, and am now just under a year on a brand new team doing something TOTALLY different (so I’ve learned a lot, but there’s a TON more that I need to learn).

    The problem, I don’t believe my current employer is financially stable any longer. There have been significant lay offs, and contract issues with critical vendors are now coming to light. I need to be job hunting, but my most recent managers (meaning the last 4-5 years worth are all at my current employer). They’d give me fantastic references, but I’d have to tell them I’m job hunting. Current Manager (CM) has managed me just under a year. Previous Manager (PM) managed me about 2-3 years, and now is even higher in the company structure than when I was PM’s report. The manager I worked under when I was first hired on here was just laid off in the last round (this month), and hasn’t overseen my work for 4+ years. My mentor in my new role was also just laid off. I feel like they have bigger fish to fry at the moment than being a reference for me. Any manager at my old job is approaching a decade out of date, oversaw me in a completely different industry, at entry level, and in one case was so handsoff they let me burnout to a flinder instead of getting me the assistance I needed to succeed in my role.

    How do I get references out of this? Do I just accept that I have to let my current employer know I’m job hunting? I’m not worried about repercussions, necessarily, as everyone here is extremely reasonable and I’ve loved working here, but when the specter of layoffs is constantly hanging over us all, I feel like I’m an obvious choice if they know I have one foot out the door.

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I actually do think you can ask the ones who were laid off. Yes, they have bigger fish to fry, but I think they’ll also be more than understanding of why you want to get out. And they’re probably not spending 40 hours a week job hunting, so I would think answering a few questions for jobs that get to the reference-checking stage is probably not too onerous.

      When you ask, I’d also say that you’re more than happy to serve as a reference in the other direction. Some employers do 360-degree reference checks (I think more of them should!) and you might be able to return the favor.

      1. And Now A Mouse*

        I could definitely include them on the list I think, but the other problem is that the one who managed me, didn’t manage me in the work I would be job hunting for (I’ve only been doing that bit for a little less than a year, so they couldn’t really speak to it as a reference, just to me personally. And my mentor didn’t actually manage me. Mentor had more experience in this new role, so I met with them to ask questions and get advice, but they didn’t oversee my work in any way.

        The other issue, being that I’ve only been doing this new type of work for about a year, and that’s not a lot of time on a resume. And this is more the type of work I’d be looking to continue at a new job.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I struggle with this too. My boss at my previous company died in a plane crash (I guess I could offer a Ouija board) and there’s not a single person working at the job before that who I know anymore, and I don’t have contact info or even really remember the names of those people anyway. I think my boss’s name was Karen? Not sure. She wasn’t allowed to provide a reference, upper management rule, so I just crossed her off my mental list.

    3. senior jobseeker*

      I tend to feel that having current bosses or any one else currently working in the same company as a reference is dangerous, for many reasons, and you are not expected to list those in your application. Your culture may be different, and even mine was when I had a temporary junior position in academia in which case the reference from the boss/supervisor is the norm.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      You can definitely ask laid off people to be references. You can also ask people who weren’t supervisors to be references, even though it’s not ideal. Remember, people get first jobs every day, even though they don’t have exactly perfect fit references. And people get second jobs every day without telling their first jobs they’re looking.

      One thing I have done is use a bit longer list of references when I didn’t have an exact perfect fit. Like a peer who could speak to my expertise, but not what I was like to manage. And a former manager in a different industry. And someone I volunteered with. Etc. So potential employers had someone to contact about each likely question, even if they didn’t have one or two people who could answer all the usual questions by themselves.

  77. Youth*

    Six months ago (Aug 10-11 open thread), I wrote an “I-need-encouragement” post. My well of encouragement is dry and I’d love some more.

    Last year was, for me, A Year of Only Bad Things. These things included major surgery, a traumatizing friend breakup, repeated unexplained migraines, dealing with anxiety and depression, and going on month eighteen of my search for a new/less stressful/more fulfilling job.

    Now I’m at month nineteen and going on twenty. There aren’t as many writing- and editing-type jobs out there as there are, say, accountant-type jobs, but I didn’t think it was going to be this hard for me to find something new. I applied for a promising-looking job that’s probably a level below what I’m doing now …and was rejected the next business day for not having the right kind of experience.

    I spent a lot of time yesterday crying at my desk. I just feel so demoralized. Discouraged. Down in the dumps. I could handle the job situation if the rest of my life weren’t a dumpster fire. Or I could handle the dumpster fire life if I liked my job more. But having to deal with both is…oy.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Jedi hugs if you want them :(

      You didn’t ask this, but to be completely honest, if I had been actively looking for 18 months I think I would take this as a sign that I need to re-evaluate what I’m up to. An active job search to me means sending out 2-3 resumes a week, getting callbacks on maybe two a month, getting an interview every six months. Which step is breaking down? Are you not seeing 2-3 job postings a week that meet your requirements? That happened to me so I started having to look at broader options. It wasn’t what I wanted, but what I wanted more than anything else was to move on from my rut at the time, even more than I wanted to find the perfect job that took me five years to find. Can you broaden your search at all?

      1. Youth*

        The first year or so I struggled looking for postings consistently. The last six or seven months, I’ve been applying for jobs every weekend. Usually one to three. I’ve been hearing back from a few each month, but they’re almost always the outlier jobs aka the ones I’m not very excited about with work I don’t really want to do, and as we progress further it becomes clear that the fit isn’t good on either end.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          For the record last time I was job searching it took me 12 months of active looking (meaning applying for 2-3 a week most weeks) but I had some indications that I was “close” – I turned down one offer that wasn’t the right fit, and I was getting interviews, including one or two that told me I was in their top two but it went to the other person in the end. So I knew it was more bad luck than anything else. At the end of that period I had to accept that I wasn’t going to get everything I wanted, and I knew that because I had tried very hard! I wasn’t going to get a big promotion AND a big raise AND equally interesting work AND the right location. I just wasn’t there in my career, what I had to offer an employer wasn’t that desirable. That actually made it easier for me to take what I could get and figure I’d try again next time, and it also helped me clarify that my immediate goal was to get the hell out of a job that just wasn’t working for me anymore and do something different (and get some time off before I had to start). Job searching can help you identify your priorities if you are open to it. But if you’ve only been actively looking for 6-7 months you might not be doing anything wrong, you’re just in the muddy middle of the process :(

          1. Youth*

            Yeah, I’m open to getting a lower position or lower salary if I can do work I really enjoy, and I’m open to doing work that’s not too exciting if the salary’s great or if it will give me experience to move into other kinds of roles in the future. However, the one job I interviewed for with work I thought I’d enjoy turned out to have no benefits and less than 50% my current salary, which was just…too much.

            The other couple of jobs I’ve interviewed for had some big red flags. One of the interviewers asked me how good I was at getting difficult people to give me information. Another told me that for me to truly succeed in her workplace, she needed to know my friends and family?!

            I guess if I’m doing things egregiously wrong, time will tell. I think that my emotional state is just poor enough that frustration with job searching = frustration with myself right now.

    2. merp*

      I’m going through a few things too (I join you in the ‘traumatizing friend breakup’ club and it is exceptionally terrible) and here’s what I remind myself: this too shall pass. If that feels flippant, I’m sorry, I know it does to me sometimes. But when things feel awful, it sometimes helps me to imagine a point in 6 months where things are different and the way I feel now is a distant memory.

      And in the meantime, I watch a lot of silly tv shows (currently: Schitt’s Creek) and try to make plans I can look forward to (ranging from small like visiting my friend at the coffee shop they work at tomorrow to much larger, like the vacation I’m going on for 4th of july).

      This internet stranger is in your corner! Hope things feel better soon!

      1. Youth*

        Yeah, I noticed on an older AAM thread that someone mentioned that friend breakups aren’t seen as significant in most cultures. Why is that?! A friend is someone you expect to be in your life no matter the circumstances, while you generally expect to cycle through romantic relationships. In some ways it hurts far, far more.

        Thanks for the thoughts. I hope things get better for you, too.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I remember that discussion. People felt like someone can have many friends throughout their lives that can gain or loose importance over time, compared to roles where there can only be one like a True Love, mother or sister – so what’s the big deal if you lose one friend or another? However, that did not ring true for me at all.

        2. merp*

          Agreed, it’s frustrating! There’s not even really a lot of easy language around it that doesn’t borrow from romantic relationships. (On the flip side, too, sometimes – good friendships should be celebrated and valued, not taken for granted or take an automatic back seat to romantic relationships.) Friend breakups are so tough.

        3. Kathenus*

          There was actually an article in the past couple of weeks on one of the news websites about research showing that friendships ending can be worse than romantic breakups, so yeah, it’s a big deal for most people if it’s a significant person in your life.

        4. Person from the Resume*

          I didn’t see the original friend thread.

          There are different levels of friendship and many people have lost touch with people who used to be their friend so since they didn’t experience it as significant, they don’t understand. I broke with a awful friend (my decision) and I still feel the impact. I think she was trying to be a different/better person when we met, but I realized that she wasn’t a nice person I thought she was. Little quirks all added up to a superficial, judgmental person. But given how close we once were, I still feel it.

          Also some people have their most intimate relationships with their partners or family so for them losing a friend is not as impactful as the loss of a romantic relationship. Also I think most people in romantic relationships always hope the one they are in now will be their last. I mean in the long history of life, it might not be but few people go into a romantic relationship expecting that it won’t last.

          1. Youth*

            In terms of your last paragraph, it’s possible that, as a person who’s never had a romantic relationship, I expect more from my friendships/value them more than average.

    3. Kathenus*

      You mention in one of your responses that you have focused on more consistent job applications, focusing on some each weekend. Maybe take a weekend, or one weekend day at least, to have a break from both work and job-hunting, to just recharge. If you’ve been regularly applying consistently you shouldn’t have to feel guilty over doing this, and a mental recharge day, on a relatively regular basis, might do you a wonder of good. Best of luck.

    4. Emily S.*

      Sending virtual hugs.

      I don’t have much advice, just be sure to take care of yourself. Eat healthily, get some regular exercise (even just walking), and practice hobbies you enjoy. (e.g. Reading is one my favorite ways to escape mentally!) Self-care is super important.

    5. JobHunter*

      I sympathize with you, Youth. I have been hunting for the same amount of time, with two final interviews. I had better luck leveraging old work experience than more recent experience. :(

  78. Deryn*

    Over the past month or so, I’ve been interviewing for PhD programs in a specialty notorious for its low acceptance rates (think a 5-8 spots in a program with several hundred applicants). I’ve completed four of my five interviews, and heard back from three, all with acceptances, including one from what I believe is the school I’ll end up at. One of my friends joked that I was “making it look easy,” which was flattering, but also triggered a lot of reflection on my part.

    It definitely hasn’t been easy, and I’ve spent five years preparing for this – there were two application cycles where I got ZERO interview offers, a cross-country move for a rigorous master’s degree program, and three years of low-paying work in my field to gain experience and publications. I’ll be honest, I’ve been surprised at how relaxed I’ve felt at each interview, especially since everyone in the field that I’ve talked to has gone on and on about stressful and draining the interviews are. It’s really hammered home that I am incredibly well qualified and well prepared, and I’m interviewing at programs that are a good match for me. After so many years of rejections and feeling very inadequate and far away from where I want to be, it’s really starting to dawn on me how much cumulative work I have put into this, and that I’ve done a really good job.

    Going from zero interview offers at my last application cycle to multiple acceptances this time around feels like I’m having my own Disney Princess Power Ballad, and I was not prepared for how emotional it would make me feel.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Sometimes the universe smiles!! Enjoy this time. It is a great feeling to be confident and it can create a positive feedback loop where people react to your calmness and confidence by giving you even more good things. In my experience, it is a brief but blessed period and you might as well ride the wave for as long as you can!

    3. Megan*

      I’ve had similar issues in the past, but with jobs. I got a full time job in my field during the start of second semester of my Masters. I switched to online and did my last semester whilst working full time and attended uni during random days when I took time off.

      Almost everyone kept commenting how “lucky” I was to get employment so quickly, nay, before we graduated!

      What only some (my friends) of them knew was… I’d actually been working casually in two different jobs for over 5 years prior to the Masters and now being almost qualified the job was willing to take me on given my experience. 5 years of hard work and kicking ass in my Masters landed me that job, not luck!!!

      Good on you, and please correct people. I always corrected people as it’s important to demonstrate hard work gets you places!

    4. C*

      Congratulations! I’m very happy for you.

      I have also applied to similarly competitive PhD programs. This was my second time applying. The first time around (3 years ago), I got 11/11 rejections. This time I got 2 interviews and I’m still waiting to hear from them. If I don’t get accepted by the school I want, I may apply again next year. It’s a tough process and I’m trying not to feel dejected.

  79. Saradactyl*

    Let’s talk email etiquette! One of the major requirements of my job is responding to client questions over email, and I pride myself on being a very prompt responder – I typically get back to a question within 24 hours or less. Sometimes it takes me longer if I need to look into something for the client and sometimes if I have other priorities or projects to work on I’m delayed somewhat, but otherwise I get back to you quickly. That’s why it rankles me probably more than it should when someone expects a legitimately immediate response or sends some kind of “did you see my email?” prompt if I don’t respond right after. Yes. I saw your email. I promise I saw it and I promise I’ll get back to you.

    I was communicating with a client in the afternoon yesterday who sent me a question and then sent me another email fairly early this morning that just said “circling back on this.” Dude!! Give me a minute!! Anyone else get peeved by this?

    2. Bulbasaur*

      I think sometimes clients forget they aren’t the only client. I’ve had a few high maintenance clients over the years, and what I usually do is respond within the hour just to say something like “That’s a great question! I need to pull some data from A, B and C to answer it thoroughly, so please expect a response from me by 12pm tomorrow” or something to that effect. That way they feel heard and you are setting expectations for how long it takes to get tasks done for them.

      Depending on the type of work, if they are being billed by the hour, it’s worth it to set expectations from the start–you only check emails X times per day to minimize time billed for admin work, but are available via phone for emergencies. This has saved me a lot of “Hey, I just thought of this and would like to have a long drawn out brainstorming session via email about it” types of situations. But I am in the marketing agency world, so it might be different for other types of work.

    3. Competent Commenter*

      Yep, super irritating.

      I had one client who sent a message that just said “tick, tick, tick” as our deadline approached. I eventually fired that client by just not being available anymore.

    4. Sloan Kittering*

      Yeah, I’m really trying to train myself to respond quickly with an acknowledgement even if I don’t have the answer, because people are relentless. I hate it. I think it creates an expectation in my office that everybody is on email all the time, that they have it on their phones if they’re out of the office or it’s evening hours – and in my field, it’s totally needless. There is nothing we do that couldn’t wait 48 hours.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Keep working on that. I get this a lot with researchers and I have zero qualms about telling them I’ll get back to them this afternoon/tomorrow/Monday/next week/whenever seems appropriate. Finding what they want often takes a fair amount of time and I don’t want them pestering me in the interim.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Yeah but that’s my point – you are replying, to tell them that it will take a while. So they don’t follow up with “did you get my email????” I assume you are also replying quite promptly, as soon as you get the email.

          1. nonegiven*

            Maybe have an auto response saying that you are able to respond to most questions within 2 business days. Let them leave some voicemails, too.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I’m working with myself and my team on replying faster when we have to go looking for the answer. Just a quick “I saw this and am working on it!” It’s a real thing in my office culture.

        We also have virtually nothing that can’t wait, and at the same time, and overwhelming glut of email, so it’s not impossible that things get missed/overlooked.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      There is a special circle in hell reserved for those people who IM me to ask if I have seen the email that they sent 5 minutes ago. That circle is getting mighty crowded.

      1. London Calling*

        I have recounted this story before but years ago I worked – briefly – for someone who would IM, then email to ask if I got the IM then PHONE to ask why I hadn’t answered any of them. Then complain I wasn’t getting the work shifted. I lasted three months.

    6. Washi*

      Yes, I find it incredibly irritating.

      What I’ve noticed is that it’s often people who aren’t very good at managing their own email – they forget to respond to emails if they are more than 12 hours old, so they assume everyone does. I remember in a previous job my boss was ASTOUNDED that I had a system for managing my emails that I adhered to very carefully. Her “system” was responding to things immediately as they came in and at all other times completely forgetting about them.

    7. Drago Cucina*

      Not alone. I was having an MRI (which for me requires sedation) and came back the next day to 20 emails and multiple voice messages. I hadn’t immediately responded to a question that was originally, “Let me know by Friday.” It was Wednesday.

    8. Earthwalker*

      My office used email like it was instant message. I had to keep reminding myself that if I didn’t want to irritate people (and get those “gentle reminder!” messages) I needed to keep email popups running and answer emails within a 5 minutes of receipt. The time management practice of “check your email twice a day at most!” would never have worked there.

    9. The Rat Catcher*

      Ughhhhh.

      I respond with “I did see this and have it down to look into on Thursday” or whatever. Because pretty much whenever an email comes in I am deciding when I’m going to deal with it.

    10. AshK413*

      Honestly, I don’t think responding within 24 hours is actually that prompt. For me, responding within a couple of hours is prompt but a whole day? That would be slow especially if I required a response from you to move forward with work. Maybe my expectations are off but clearly others you work with are operating under the same definition of what’s prompt. Just food for thought.

  80. matcha123*

    I’m wondering how posters who are minorities deal with invasive questions about their race at work.
    A little over a week ago, a coworker asked about my background and then asked if I was a certain ethnicity. This coworker has devoted energy to discrediting my work and my character for the past two or so years, and I felt like this was another attempt at trying to find something to rank me “lower” on.

    Since I don’t work in the US, I can’t really talk to HR or even my supervisor about this. I work in Japan where people are extremely classist and racist. At my new office I haven’t spoken much about my family, race, etc. because it’s not all that exciting and because I don’t want to give people reason to run their mouths.

    1. WellRed*

      In this case, you could try saying “Why do you ask?” It puts the onus back on them to try and explain it, especially if they are doing it for less than kind reasons.

      1. matcha123*

        My go-to reply has been “guess,” which she probably wasn’t expecting.
        This person has made some fantastic assumptions about me based on her own assumptions, and this was just another in a long line of things :(

    2. Japananon*

      I’m in your same boat. Here are some different strategies I use:

      -Try to separate what the person actually said/intended from my assumptions about them/my previous experiences. In your example, you say “I felt like this was another attempt…” Sometimes previous experience gives us helpful insight, sometimes it makes us prejudge–not saying your coworker wasn’t trying to find more ammo against you, but this can help you determine how you want to respond. Do you want to give a literal answer, or answer what you think was being asked? Or do you want to turn it back to them and ask why they care?

      -Separate our own opinion of our race/ethnicity/background/language skills/life story from others’ opinions (or what we think their opinions are). You say “I don’t want to give people reason to run their mouths”–it sounds like you have heard some hurtful assumptions about your race or a group you look like you belong to. Sometimes it can be helpful and preserve yourself to head off those comments by not bringing it up. But sometimes it can seem (to others)/feel (to yourself) like you also think it’s something to be ashamed of. When I was in a workplace that devalued me for my non-Japanese status, I felt like I was devaluing it too. Now I’m in a job that takes advantage of my special skills and I feel much better about my place in Japan as a whole.

      -This concerns me: “This coworker has devoted energy to discrediting my work and my character for the past two or so years.” Even if you don’t use the Race Card, this is something you could certainly speak to HR or your supervisor about this. Harassment is a thing and there are resources for dealing with it–don’t be too quick to write off resources just because “this is Japan and Japan has problems with race and Wa.” Are there any sempai/work friends you could turn to?

      -These comments are an inevitable fact of being a known minority (especially a visible minority) in Japan (and other countries of course). Make sure you’re taking the time and energy to care for yourself, value yourself, and surround yourself with people of all backgrounds, and people who don’t care about backgrounds, to offset the negativity and racism we do face.

      Good luck!

  81. De Minimis*

    So I’m doing a casual job search these days, and am trying to figure out if I should take off a job from my resume. I worked in public accounting for one year back in 2008-09, and was let go [fired for poor performance, though some of that was because there just wasn’t any work coming in the door for all the people they hired.]

    After that I had a long gap in employment –basically a 3 year gap. I’ve worked more or less steadily since then, so I’ve had almost 7 years of experience.

    Enough time has passed where I’m wondering if I should leave off the public accounting job and just list my experience over the last 7 years. There are a few reasons why I’m unsure about it, though. It was with a Big Four firm, and I met the requirements for my CPA license while I was there. I think it might be obvious when someone sees the CPA on my resume that they would wonder where I got it at [my subsequent experience has been in accounting roles for government/nonprofit.] Normally people would say it’s crazy to not put a Big Four job on your resume, but my stay was only a year and I had such a long employment gap afterward that I’m not sure if it’s helping anything. But if I leave it off, and then if I’m asked where I got my CPA I’d have to say I was at a Big Four and they’d wonder why I wouldn’t put that on my resume. It’s tricky.

    I don’t think the job gap has caused me a lot of recent problems when applying for jobs, but I’m sometimes still asked about it and I wonder if I would be considered a stronger candidate if it was no longer on my resume.

    Thoughts?

    1. Boredatwork*

      You can get your CPA all sorts of way, technically you just have to work under a CPA (my state). I think there are some grandfathered/old rules where just existing long -enough would earn you the title.

      I don’t think it’s a bad thing to leave it on, to me it’s an indicator that you were a “good” student in college. Typically you can’t get hired at Big4 without having solid social skills and decent grades. I think of it as a rubber stamp for quality.

      The short stint is easily explained and if anyone you’re interviewing with worked in the recession, they already know what happened to you.

      My Fortune 150 company just hired 2 people, both former big4, largely in part because of that rubber stamp I just described.

      You can weight this against the desire to stop having that 3-year gap. Hope it helps :)

    2. MW Accountant*

      Are you currently looking in the public acctg industry? If no, they I’d leave it off. I’m a CPA that has never worked in public acctg– worked in wealth management almost my entire career now. I’ve never had anyone question where/why I’ve gotten my certification– they’re just glad I have it!

      1. De Minimis*

        Some good ideas from both of you, thanks. I’m not looking in public accounting [and probably not in private industry either other than possibly healthcare since one of my federal gigs was for a healthcare agency.]

        Like a lot of things, it probably should depend on what I’m applying for. If it’s anything remotely tax related, probably better to leave it on.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Depends on the CPA requirements for your state. Where I am (Michigan) you have to pass the exams and have 1 year of public accounting experience in order to claim to be a CPA. If you state doesn’t have that requirement (many don’t) then leaving it off wouldn’t be an issue but if you did that job hunting in Michigan most places wouldn’t believe you were a CPA in this state. We actually had an issue with this at my old employer – CPA move here from a state with different requirements and the company refused to acknowledge his credentials.

  82. HR Lady*

    I’ve been given a really exciting chance to speak at a corporate conference next week – it’s short notice but it’s on my pet topic and themed around something I’ve recently done some work on, so it’s not too much effort to pull something together.

    When not being the Friendly Neighbourhood HR Lady, I am a stand up comedian of an evening, so public speaking is very much my sweet spot – my dream is to one day somehow combine the two (I’m funny AND I’m very aware of commercial sensitivities and employment law, I am a corporate event dream surely) but this is the first chance I’ve ever had to really experiment in this space, albeit this isn’t something I need to be funny for. I’ve organised internal corporate events and hosted panels/compered events, so I know how to be engaging and amusing whilst still being relevant and businesslike, but never anything external or just me talking for 30 minutes. I’m really excited, plus the topic really is what I’m passionate about in my work. Yay!

    My only slight niggle is that I have until Monday to answer “how do you want to be introduced”; when doing stand up my answer to that is “the Pacific Rim theme and saying my whole name in an enthusiastic manner” but I don’t think this is quite the right fit for the Women In Llama Wrangling conference. Any tips on what is the normal etiquette on this one? Or indeed any other tips around speaking at a corporate conference?

    1. Murphy*

      What I’ve seen is pretty much a small professional blurb of a few sentences, but I like where your head’s at.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I HATE the introductions that are a lengthy reading of the person’s bio. It’s just awful and boring and not useful. So, while “the Pacific Rim theme” is a little too far, I would think about if there’s any way to incorporate some of your talent for storytelling into the introduction you give them. (And remember, someone who’s not you needs to deliver it, so… something that could be delivered by the “straight man” in your performance.) And whatever you do, have them keep it short. You’ll do better introducing you than they will.

      Maybe some sort of fun fact about you that is a lead-in to why you are the perfect person to be talking about Special Llama Wrangling? I once had to introduce someone and dug around until I came up with the tidbit that if you searched on google scholar for “Teapot Painting,” Tom Smith is the number one most cited author. I stated that fact, and then said, “So it’s not just me telling you that Tom is THE leading expert on Teapot Painting, it’s Google.” It wasn’t hilarious, but it was something a little more than reading Tom’s CV off to everyone.

  83. Roses Angel*

    How would you decline a job offer? I have a offer in writing and an all but written offer from someone I trust who recently left my company. I loved working with this person and was very sad he left. When he left he told me he wanted me to come work for him. He can’t make me an offer for another 2 weeks because he is on vacation with his family but I know his offer will be equal to what the other company has offered. The company that made me the written offer is smaller (I lose some extra vaca and some bonuses if I tske it) and I really clicked with them. I have had many sleepless nights but I have decided to go with my friend and decline the written offer. I am so sad to decline the offer and I cant see to figure out how to decline the offer without burning a bridge.

    1. CM*

      I’d be wary of making decisions based on an informal offer, but I’m sure you’ve thought about that. Just say something about how you think they’re great but have decided to go in another direction. You could say this, either over the phone or in an email: “I really enjoyed meeting you and talking with you about this position. It was a hard decision, but I’ve decided to accept an offer with another company. Thanks for the time you took to consider me. I hope we’ll stay in touch if there’s an opportunity to work together in the future.”

      1. Roses Angel*

        I would be wary if it was anyone else. He’s the one in charge of hiring so I know I will get hired. Thank you! What you said encompasses how I feel exactly.

        1. valentine*

          You may be hired, but when? Is he creating a role for you? Is there a role but things may change in two weeks? He can’t deputize someone? Are you sure you can negotiate well with him and get a better offer? And it will still only be an offer, unless you’re willing to accept no matter what. Do you really want to be in the limbo that results from declining?

    2. Kathenus*

      I agree 100% that counting on an informal offer may be risky. A few thoughts based on your description. If the small company would be your first choice if they would give more vacation or other perks, would you take it? If so maybe you can negotiate. You’ll be in a stronger position to do so if friend has given you a formal offer – you could tell smaller company that you are really excited about the opportunity but at your level of experience you would really like xx and yy to be part of the package. And that you have another offer that does include these things (if true) but that your first choice is smaller company. I would only do this if it’s all true (you do have another offer, it does include these things), and that you are prepared to not take the job if they can’t include these aspects in the offer.

      Also, for your friend, if he really wants you to come work for him and you have another offer and need a decision in a time sensitive way, would he be willing to email you the formal offer now even though he’s on vacation? Is he willing to lose you if he waits?

      You’re in the driver’s seat here, but suggest being cautious and not taking an action where you could end up with neither.

      All that said, it’s just part of business that people sometimes decline offers. It does not usually mean burning a bridge – if by that you mean them thinking badly of you or badmouthing you. It may mean that you aren’t considered by them in the future (but may not, that can vary by company), but generally companies might be disappointed when a top candidate declines, but they don’t take it personally or as unprofessional.

  84. JMP520*

    What should I wear on my first day? I am a female in IT, and my standard outfit is a long-sleeved t-shirt, jeans, and running shoes. This would be fine on most days (judging from seeing people at the interview). How much should I dress up while not straying so far away from my standard outfit that people will ask questions?

    1. Competent Commenter*

      I’d dress one step above that for your first few days until you confirm how people dress in your office. So maybe a long-sleeved simple sweater, nicer jeans, and better shoes than running shoes (for me that would be simple flat-heeled boots under my jeans, but I used to wear something a little like loafers too).

      Then once you’ve got a better sense of the place you can start dressing down from there over a period of a few weeks, days or even the next day depending on what you see.

      1. CheeryO*

        Ha, that’s my exact work uniform. Crewneck sweaters are great – they read put-together while still being really comfy and casual.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        I agree. Jeans are fine but dress up the top and shoes a tiny bit. I have very comfy flats that won’t stand out as dressing down as much as running shoes.

    2. SaaSyPaaS*

      Female in IT here too. I say business casual for the first day, and go from there. Good luck on your first day!

    3. Wild Bluebell*

      I am a female in IT, and recently started a new job.
      On my first day I just wore jeans, long sleeved t-shirt, a zipped hoodie over it, and new running shoes.
      I don’t even have any “business” attire and had no time to buy it, so I just went with what I had, just trying to select newer and nicer things.

  85. Frustrated in the US*

    Well since its open Friday I thought I might give this work question a shot.

    I am a payroll processor in the US.
    One of my clients who runs a restaurant wants to lower the waitresses wages to below the current minimum wage for our area from what is currently is.
    My boss wants to keep this client despite my pushback that we pay the minimum wage or else.
    Instead he wants to draft a letter stating “hey what you want us do does not follow the law, if you get busted you shoulder all the blame.”

    Anyone know if something like this could come back to bite us despite the letter?

    1. ZSD*

      Just to be sure, are you certain that the lower rate of pay is below the tipped minimum wage in your area? Many jurisdictions allow tipped employees to be paid less than the standard minimum wage. (I’m opposed to this policy, but if it turns out that what the client is doing isn’t illegal, then that at least solves your problem in the short term.)

      1. Furstrated in the US*

        Was strictly speaking about restaurant minimum wage/tipped wage rates.

        Our area increased the rate by .15 cents half a year ago. Client no longer wants to pay the increased rate and wants to pay the old rate.

        1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “Our area increased the rate by .15 cents half a year ago.”

          Is that 15/100ths of one cent, or do you mean 15¢ ($0.15)?

          Sorry, but people writing out cents prices like that is a pet peeve of mine.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Assuming you’ve already looked into what ZSD said, I’d approach it as surely this is a mistake.” “We’re confused – the minimum wage for your employees should be $X/hour. Is this a typo?” And if your company does somehow have liability, there’s no way a letter saying “it’s not our fault” would have any merit. In fact, it would be an admission that you knew you were doing something illegal.

      1. Psyche*

        Yeah, I don’t think you can say “That’s illegal so if you get caught it’s on you.” If this client is super important, talk to a lawyer about your liability if you process less than minimum wage payroll payments.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope. You can’t willingly break the law. Waivers don’t excuse anything. Waivers are for things out of your knowledge base, as in if they had a CBA you weren’t told about, then of course you’re not liable for breaking the terms. But laws that govern what you do for the service…no.

      Your boss is a bad person. And a worse business person. Holy moly.

    4. Koala dreams*

      I think writing that letter is the minimum that you need to do, but I agree with you that it would be better to fire the client. The best way forward would be to first inform them of the illegality and then use that as the reason to end the business relationship. Your reputation is at stake, at the very least, and I suspect there might be legal things to worry about also. (I’m not from the US so I’m not sure how minimum wage works over there, but from the little I know it seems very serious.)

  86. Fluffer Nutter*

    Can s0meone provide good language in response to “Please submit your salary requirements” with an application? That irritates me and normally I don’t even apply, but for this job I will. It’s a non profit, so likely lowish pay but the benefits, responsibilities, etc. can make such a huge difference. I probably have about a $8-10k range depending on the health insurance plan and the total benefits package. Any ideas on how to phrase this without being preachy, or giving them carte blanche to low ball me?
    Also, my cover letter is exactly 1 page and I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback so I don’t necessarily want to add the salary stuff there. Would you just put it in to body of your email and attach resume and cover letter?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I’ve said “I’m looking for $X to $X+10K depending on the overall benefits package and workplace flexibility”, to indicate that I’m open to discussion. However, almost everybody immediately told me they could only do 5K less than X (eg, 15K under what I would really like to earn!). I did feel that they were deliberately seeing how low they could go, but c’est la vie, and obviously they weren’t too intimidated by my numbers to continue the discussion. Oh, and all their talk of flexibility was total BS so I might just leave it out next time.

    2. Ali G*

      Have you looked at their 990 to get an idea of salary? Between the 990, which lists the top paid staff, and their staff list from their website, you can typically deduce where the open position is on the hierarchy and make an educated guess at the range. So if I deduce the salary is $50-60k, then I would list my requirements as “$55-70k, depending on the full suite of benefits offered.”
      I’ve also had limited success by saying something like “I believe my salary expectations are reasonable based on the level of this position and my experience in non-profit sector.”

    1. matcha123*

      I don’t think he’ll be getting any money back.
      If he was going to work for them, he’d give them his receipts and the costs would be added in to his first or second paycheck. Since he’s not going to be on their payroll, I highly doubt that they would reimburse him the cash.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Yeah! I can see “the systems” not supporting this since he never became an employee, provided bank accounts for deposits, etc.

        IDK it’s unwise to front the company like this. I mean even booking the travel was work he wasn’t being paid for since he wasn’t on the payroll yet. Given that the guy reneged on the acceptance, he has a bit of responsibility. The business had no hint that this would happen.

        Also wonder why he needs reimbursement. He should be getting most of the money back if he never made the trip minus small cancellation fees.

    2. BRR*

      Interesting. I can’t really land on an answer. If the company purchased everything, I would say they shouldn’t ask him for the money. But there’s this voice saying this is his own fault a bit. But then there’s another voice saying the company should have paid for the trip in the first place.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I would say company should pay but the reservations need to actually be cancelled and any credits should go to the company (ie, he doesn’t get double refunds, or a refund and a useable ticket or credit).

  88. peachie*

    Question about workplace norms: What do you and don’t you expect your work to provide you with/pay for? In my last workplace, we had access to any sort of office supplies we needed (notebooks, pens, staplers, headsets, and sometimes larger items like standing desks/new chairs). There was a process for ordering/requesting items we needed or wanted. We were also reimbursed for minor travel, like getting to/parking at/getting food during a conference (that we ran) in the same city.

    In my current workplace, we’re not provided with as much. We of course have our work computers/accessories (docking station, mouse, etc.), desk phone, and office chair, but not much else. I got some pens/highlighters when I started, but there’s nothing like notepads, binders, monitor risers, or anything like that.

    I assumed this was due to the type of work/office. My last job was in a larger, self-contained office and we did things like conferences, trainings, and meetings that required paper and other office supplies; my current job could be done entirely on the computer. I prefer having notebooks around, so I bring in my own, along with pens, monitor lifts, a nicer mousepad, paper plates/cleaning wipes, that kind of stuff. However, I have a new coworker and she seems to think it’s unusual that these things aren’t available and that there isn’t really a process for ordering them (except for big issues, like a broken chair).

    I didn’t think of this as unusual or a problem — I was lucky to come from a place that provided everything, but I didn’t expect that to be the case everywhere. My coworker (who’s been in the workforce for 10+ years longer than I have) has got me curious about this, though, and I want to know what others’ experiences have been and what you’d expect from an employer.

    1. coffeeforone*

      I think this depends on your workplace. In the non-profit world, it’s not uncommon to be told you need to bring your own notebooks, etc. But monitor lifts are an ergonomic thing and should absolutely be provided if it’s for an accommodation (at least in the country where I live).

    2. matcha123*

      I’m used to bringing in my own supplies. Aside from staplers or, I don’t know…copy paper? I generally bring my own pens, notepads, cups…
      At my current office I can’t even change my mouse or mousepad without permission, so that kind of sucks.

    3. Overeducated*

      This really varies. My first manager in my current job would say “oooh watch the budget, we have to make sure there’s enough left for X” when we asked about ordering office supplies, new printer cartridges, etc., and gave me a talking-to for ordering two boxes of a specific kind of folders at the instruction of my senior coworker. The office was supposed to provide it all, but it was a big deal, and two of my new coworkers were told to wait an indefinite amount of time to get the standing desks the rest of us already had. Then that manager retired and the new manager who filled in rolled her eyes at all of this, said “the budget is fine,” and just ordered the stuff. The standing desks were there within two weeks.

      Is there an admin or someone who does office logistics/purchasing you could ask? Maybe there is a process, it’s just not well-advertised.

    4. Emily S.*

      In all my office jobs, the company has paid for all supplies — including pens, notepads, etc. Even Kleenex tissues.
      So I would agree with your coworker, it strikes me as odd to not have those things paid for by the company. And it’s even more odd that there isn’t a system in place to request office supplies.

      1. Windchime*

        My current workplace provides basic office supplies (pens, notebooks, sticky notes, tissues, etc) and ergonomic equipment. But this is the first place I’ve ever worked that doesn’t supply free coffee. One place I worked at also supplied free tea, cocoa, cider, etc. People have banded together and purchased Keurigs and hot water dispensers, but we all have to provide our own k-cups, teabags, etc. It seems weird and kind of cheap, but it’s the State so I guess that’s how it is.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have no patience for companies of any size not providing supplies. Unless it’s a non-profit or government position, you’re working for a profitable business, they buy the pens, notebooks and such.

      I’m a cheapskate. I’ll never go so far as to demand the name brand things. I don’t need fancy fountain pens but a step above BIC please (I literally crush them, I’m such a strong handed goon!)

      I’ve budget friendly because I’m am accountant after all.

      Our office supplies total around 2k with Costco being the supplier and if we were bigger, we would get great deals to keep it within a proper range to scale with.

    6. Nana*

      Years ago, worked for a start-up, and the public offering was delayed. One manager went to an outside firm for a meeting, and returned with two extra pens she’d picked up off the conference table! She was thanked and praised for her quick thinking. A few years later, she became a VP…and I assured her it was because of that Gumption.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I think that the employer should be providing the things you need to do your job in reasonable comfort. That includes office supplies (pens, notebooks, binders, folders, staplers etc), computer and accessories (mouse, backup disk), a desk and a chair that fit, adequate lighting. If they need you to use a cellphone or particular for your job they should provide it. They should also reimburse for travel and food expenses outside the usual work routine. There should also be some system for one-off ordering of ergonomic type items for individual coworkers – special chairs, foot rests, desk lamps, etc. They are not responsible for ‘fun’ items – if you want 6 colours of pens, cute folders, office decorations and so on that’s on you, also if you want something fancier than the provided supplies.

      In my experience (academic, government research) we’re provided with most of these, although you may need to push a bit for things like custom chairs, and you might need to choose between a laptop and a desktop. If we are doing local travel they don’t reimburse for food and transportation (public transportation is both cheap and efficient, and we can eat the same way we would at the office). We also get instant coffee, teabags and hot and cold filtered water for free, but they are prohibited from providing other food.

  89. Rusty Shackelford*

    If you post to this thread, or the weekend thread, how late do you go back and look for responses? Sometimes I’ll come back Monday or even Tuesday and see something I want to respond to, but I don’t know if the original poster will ever see it.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I wouldn’t think Monday or Tuesday would work to make a new comment. I check at least once or twice through the afternoon and the end of the workday Friday to see if anybody has responded to something I’ve said, but I think the discussion really drops off after that. I might check Monday just to see if there was anything else, but I’m not really going to add on the discussion at that point, because I’m assuming the person who left the comment isn’t going to check again either.

    2. manuka honey*

      I always read this thread every Friday and check for responses to my post/comment on new posts before I leave work.

    3. Youth*

      If I post something on Friday, I’ll generally go back and check Monday to see if there are any lingering responses.

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Yeah, but if there are lingering comments, I’m not likely to extend the conversation from that point.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          I wouldn’t attempt to extend a conversation, but sometimes someone asks for something very concrete, and I’m all, I have the answer to that! but I don’t know if the poster will ever see it.

          1. Grandma Mazur*

            I check back in with both threads on Monday (but I’m in the early stages of maternity leave and there’s a lot of time spent feeding where reading on my phone is all I can do…).

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I keep an eye on things throughout the weekend but with new posts on Monday my brain doesn’t roll back any longer.

    5. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      Part of the problem is that there’s no “view new posts/comments” option here. Scrolling through hundreds of posts, searching for the blue line that indicates a new post, isn’t easy and can be mind-numbing at times.

    6. ..Kat..*

      I recommend Monday or Tuesday. I am on the west coast of the USA, so my comments are much later than someone on the east coast. Also, I usually work until 7:30 pm Saturday and Sunday, so my comments are later.

  90. LawBee*

    Just wanted to say that I was having a lovely leisurely morning at home resting my back (I’ve got a bulging disk that has been very problematic lately) and enjoying my Saturday.

    ha ha ha ha ha. weeeeeeeeeeeeeep.

  91. My Cat Posted this for Me*

    If you had time to talk to the top-top boss at your large organization, what would you say or ask?

    Our university has recently started a program where the chancellor goes around to the various departments/colleges, etc. and holds office hours so you can meet him. We have thousands of employees so this is a rare chance, and you sit alone with him in a room, or with a colleague or two. The first time this happened I used my 3 minutes to point out some gaps in how we do things that I hoped he’d consider. It was way too overstimulating and I felt like I just babbled, so I was going to skip it the second time, but got pressed into service anyway as very few people showed up.

    If you had that opportunity, what would you do? Point out inefficiencies? Praise something he’s done? Tell him about your work? I think a lot of us are at a loss, hence the steep drop off in participation.

    1. coffeeforone*

      It would be nice if they provided you more information about what the chancellor wants to get out of this: is it casual meet and greets? Listening sessions? Feedback forum? Without that clarification, I would truly consider asking first of all: “what are you hoping to get from us in this session?” and go from there….

      I had a CEO who did this and I think a lot of staff did just blab and rant about everything they want changed, and then felt disappointed that it wasn’t acted on. That’s fair, but in my meeting, I felt like the CEO just wanted to understand who I was as a person and make a friendly connection face to face.

      1. My Cat Posted this for Me*

        Yeah, more info would be nice. I did intend to go in and ask what he wanted from these sessions, and I didn’t quite have the nerve to do it. I kind of feel like if I ask that on session #3, should there be one, it might seem a bit pointed! But that’s probably what I should do if I get pressed into service again.

    2. Anoniversity*

      Right now I’d talk his ear off about how unacceptable it is that they’re closing our daycare (which was small and not meeting the university’s needs anyway) with no alternative plan and how completely unacceptable it is, so I would love that!

      We have something where you can apply to eat lunch with the Chancellor but they specifically say it’s not for the airing of grievances. Alas.

      1. Lilith*

        My sister’s had to hobble around on crutches for awhile. It ended up being the best thing for students with disabilities. The president learned very quickly about navigating a large, snowy campus sometimes with non working elevators.

      2. My Cat Posted this for Me*

        Yeah I did do some of that on visit #1, but he was pretty good at deflecting. He said “Yep, we’re looking into that” and then the wind kind of went out of my sails. I did a lot of complaining on visit #2 as well, even though I hadn’t intended to. I’m a complainer!

    3. Koala dreams*

      I think the tell him/her about your work sounds the best, since you don’t have any specific instructions. You can describe a usual day in your job and ask how a usual day looks for them.

    4. TL -*

      Are there any big picture issues you want addressed, like the day care? I think something like that is the best use of your time; otherwise, I’d just say hello, talk about what you like about his policies/the college and your job a bit.

  92. TooTiredToThink*

    Question: I got cold-called (well emailed) about a job opportunity (I don’t know if they found me on LinkedIn or I may still have a resume online some where). I responded a couple of hours later saying that I was interested. A couple of hours later they responded saying that the position had been filled internally.

    I regularly put external recruiters on my “do not trust” list* – but am not sure about this one. I’m thinking this is just one of those things, yes?

    *This list consists of companies that contact me for jobs that have absolutely no bearing on my resume at all (not even a reach) or who contact me, I respond but never hear back from.

    1. PB*

      I don’t know, filling a position four hours after they contacted you seems weird to me. Maybe this varies by industry, but we only contact people we’re definitely interested in interviewing. If we were close to making an offer, we wouldn’t be reaching out to potential candidates. That said, if this was an external recruiter, maybe the company hadn’t been communicating well with them, and they had no idea an offer was imminent. So I’d say not to put them on your “do not trust” list right now, but maybe proceed with caution if they contact you again. If this happened a second time with another company, that would change the picture.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        Yeah; that’s what I was thinking too. I’m not actively looking so I generally ignore most of the cold-calling/emailing but this one had piqued my interest a tiny bit. Thanks for confirming that my thought processes weren’t wrong.

    2. senior jobseeker*

      Most likely this is one of the cheating job agencies that want to have your resume in their files so that they can sell their services to unaware employers claiming how many competent candidates they have. In my experience all (100 %) of cold calls from unknown companies/persons are such, unless worse.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      Speaking as somebody who worked in a company where this regularly occurred, this probably just means the company’s left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.

      At that company, I remember my boss was interviewing at office A for a position X, when Regional Manager for office B who’d asked her to interview candidates for position X called her and said they’d filled it by moving somebody from position Y to position X. I remember thinking at the time, unless you train that person thoroughly, that’s a terrible idea. (Think moving a Lab Assistant to a Sales role, my boss was Co-ordinator of Sales so she was used to hiring for the role they were trying to fill.) This kind of move wasn’t common but what was common was lack of communication between offices.

  93. coffeeforone*

    The new director for my team is coming up on her 3 months probation. One of my colleagues mentioned very casually in passing that one of her to-do list items for the day was “that review we have to do for [Director]”. I had no idea what she was talking about and it turns out 2 of Director’s 3 direct reports (me being the 3rd) got an email from our department lead asking some basic 360 review type questions about the Director.

    I really can’t bring this up to dept lead w/o admitting my coworkers mentioned it (which I really think would come across as gossipy), but is there a situation where it’s normal for only some people to do a 360 review of their shared boss?? Because they both got the email individually, I wonder if it was sent to specific people outside of Director’s reports, like other team members she collaborated with but my fear is that department head just plumb forgot about me…

    It’s also a bit weird to me that it came through as an email from our big boss and not a review request from HR. Also, my company doesn’t formally do 360 reviews. This is the first time I’ve heard of one being done and I know for a fact our other most recent new hire in a director role didn’t have these questions asked about them to their direct reports. My department lead is a fantastic big boss, so I want to have trust but this overall seems very weird and makes me think there’s a fairly serious issue with Director’s probation. How would you read this situation??

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’ve never been involved in a 360 review but I thought it was common for it only to involve a sampling of someone’s reports?

    2. Kathenus*

      Some 360’s have a limit on number of people that can participate, and depending on the organizational structure and the 360 format, they may need to include direct reports, peers, and supervisors on the list. So restricting how many can be involved is definitely a thing. That said, I think having two of three at a certain level participate is terrible. It’s kind of like the kid’s birthday party thing, either do a smaller proportion or include all so you don’t leave a person/small group of people feeling isolated and excluded.

      1. coffeeforone*

        Interesting! I just assumed 360s always included all employees but I guess that’s not always the case, which is totally fine. Thank you!

        I did say colleagues because our team is very collaborative and not hierarchical, but I technically have responsibilities and a title that makes me a smidge more senior than the other 2. So I would totally understand (and even agree with) just asking the most “junior” employees to participate in the 360. However, I also manage reports and wish I was included since I have the only perspective on this person’s ability to manage managers (which I find to be…. poor. To say the least). Anyways, glad to hear other people don’t think I was totally forgotten by my big boss :)

  94. AnOh*

    Asking for advice on behalf of a friend.
    Over the past year, she’s recently lost a good amount of weight. Enough where it’s very obvious, and she’s put in a lot of work to change her diet and exercise more. Other than seeing a nutritionist, she hasn’t done anything “special” than counting calories and watching her food intake. Well she’s begun to get comments from her coworkers (at least 1-2 times a week) regarding her weight loss. It ranges anywhere from commenting on what she eats for lunch, asking for the “secret trick” that caused her to lose all the weight, telling her to not lose “too much” weight, and generally just making a lot of fuss over her body’s physical changes. It all seems to be well intentioned but she feels very uncomfortable fielding all the questions and comments on her appearance especially with co-workers that she isn’t particularly close to. She been wanting to address the comments with her coworkers, but at the same time is afraid of making waves/disturbing the peace. Just this morning she told me she was cornered in the hallway by a coworker asking how much weight she’s lost. She’s a teacher so this was in the hallway around a bunch of students and the coworker was blocking her path so she felt pressured to answer. I told her I’d ask here for advice/how she should handle comments/questions in the future. Any advice?

    1. Oxford Comma*

      “Thanks! I’m just working with a nutritionist who helped me figure out something that worked *specifically* for me. You should look into that.”

      “Thanks for noticing” followed immediately by an attempt to deflect: “how is your day going?/Did you read the latest Teapot Report?”

      To the too much weight comments, in my experience, those are often either subconsciously or consciously attempts at sabotaging you because there’s an irrational fear that you’re upsetting the status quo. If your friend thinks the question is well-intentioned, maybe say “thanks, but I’m seeing a nutritionist.” If she thinks otherwise, I would again, say thanks and attempt to deflect the conversation.

      1. valentine*

        I misread it as “being a nutritionist,” so, making waves? They all need to shut up and back off. But.

        ~”Let’s talk about literally anything else”.
        ~Mention the study that says no weight talk around children.

    2. Deryn*

      My mother and I once ran into an acquaintance and my mother, surprised, said something to the effect of, “You’ve lost weight!” The acquaintance replied, “Oh, I shrank in the wash.”

      I don’t know that that will work for someone who is repeatedly bringing it up, but it was so funny that I’ve wanted an excuse to use the phrase for years.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I know one person who said “yeah, it’s from the chemo,” but I wouldn’t suggest that. If someone was bold enough to block my path and ask how much weight I’d lost, I’d say something like “oh, I don’t like talking about my weight, excuse me” and try to get away.

    4. E*

      For weight questions, I’d be tempted to say “oh, my nutritionist discourages scale watching so I am not tracking by pounds lost”. Even if that’s not so, it is a nice way to avoid sharing details she doesn’t want to. Aside from that, vague responses about how odd it is that coworkers are more obsessed with her weight loss than she is.

    5. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think mentioning the nutritionist is the right way to go- especially if she gives the impression she’s about to give them a ton of boring details about her new amazing diet.

    6. TechWorker*

      To be honest I’d be tempted to have a word with the person who cornered her in front of students – how rude!! ‘Hey, I was a bit shocked so didn’t say anything the other day, but just to let you know, I don’t really want to talk about my weight at work and I definitely don’t want to discuss it in front of students! Thanks for understanding!’

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes, this seems like a bigger problem than the invasive questioning – that your colleague felt like she was trapped until she responded is not the reaction she should cultivate. In the moment that she realizes the other person isn’t moving out of the way, she should ignore any question that’s been asked and go directly to “Excuse me, I need to get by/I need to be somewhere now” and follow that with a pointed stare and silence, regardless of whether or how the person responds, until the person moves out of the way. Do NOT tolerate petty power plays like that.

        And all the suggestions for handling the actual questions and comments are good – be vague, deflect, and move on.

    7. Anonymous Engineer*

      I’m in a similar boat (earlier in the process so not as noticeable yet), and getting comments from people outside of work, but so far none from work. I would love a way to say, to all and sundry, “Society puts way too much emphasis on weight and bodies, especially women’s bodies, so I do not want to participate in putting any more of that out into the world” without coming off snarky or getting “Geez, can’t you take a compliment?” in return.

    8. Decima Dewey*

      I lost a lot of weight after my pancreas couldn’t handle my high sugar, high carb diet anymore. Generally I told people that I lost the weight in an unhealthy way, but didn’t give details. Also once, I gave in to snarking to a friend “First, acquire a lifelong medical disorder. Then ignore the symptoms until you get reaaallly sick.”

    9. Cartographical*

      If the nutritionist has business cards, she could carry some of those or be prepared to write out the website. That gets her out of discussing specifics and people genuinely asking for info can do what they will with it. A cheery “here you go!” puts the ball back in their court.

      As for the numbers, “oh, I don’t talk numbers” or “I couldn’t say, that’s for my doctor to track” is completely fair. The worst cases will usually back off with: “I don’t discuss medical details at work.”

      If people keep on about one’s changing looks there’s the “you know, I also liked myself before” type answer or any number of fat-positive/compassionate replies like “just my appearance is changing, not my value”, even “I know you don’t mean it like this but this constant commentary feels a bit fat-shamey”. Or there’s the biological route: “And yet no one compliments my blood pressure!” and “I’ll pass that on to my metabolism.” — getting compliments on what’s essentially a bodily function is weird and not entirely appropriate.

      I lost a noticeably large amount to weight for the same unrelated medical reason I gained all of it, the same reason for the same cycle many years earlier. People would get irate over “I didn’t do anything, honest, it’s just happening” so I had to come up with other options but I really did dislike how people reacted and, now that I’m going through it again, I’m going to be even more blunt that it’s okay for me to be any size, including the bigger ones.

  95. Cheesecake2.0*

    I’m on week 4 at a new job and have not yet accrued any PTO (paid once a month in this role). This week, my neighbors (shared wall) had a hot water pipe rupture and it flooded my house because my slab floor is lower than theirs. I told my boss I’m going to need some flexibility to deal with this in the next week or two as contractors/insurance adjusters come in to fix everything. She seemed moderately understanding but I’m worried it gives a bad impression that I’m asking to work from home or flex my hours (potentially a lot for the next 2 weeks). I am exempt but was hired with the understanding I’d work 7:30-4 in office (although my boss & all coworkers utilize work from home benefits regularly). My husband has already used 2 of his PTO days to deal with this and I can’t keep expecting him to handle it. Any advice? Anyone had a similar crap situation happen right when you had a new job? How’d you make sure to balance work + contractors? I’m thinking of asking the insurance adjuster if we can be put in a hotel during the reno and we can leave a key with the main contractor. Not sure if that’s a bad idea though…

    1. Anoniversity*

      Anyone reasonable wouldn’t fault you for this. I’d just acknowledge the inconvenience of being out when you need to and thank them profusely for their understanding (even if the thanks are preemptive).

    2. TooTiredToThink*

      How did the boss truly respond when asking for the flexibility? I’d take them at their word.

      I know my 2nd week I had an emergency at my current job and I was horrified. But they were all like “no big deal” and most recently a new hire was out for a full week on what was only like her second week and it too was “no big deal”. It went against every grain in my body; but it truly was no big deal because emergencies happen.

      1. Cheesecake2.0*

        She said (in email) “working remotely so as to be available for appointments at home is a possibility”. We further discussed in person and she seemed more understanding and said to just keep her in the loop with what I need, but I still feel awkward.

        1. TooTiredToThink*

          Take them at their word then. If they are reasonable bosses; this won’t even be a blip on their radar. Truly. If they are unreasonable bosses; you are going to find it out sooner or later anyway.

          Figure out what is going to cause the least amount of stress for both yourself and your family (and truly, if that is getting a hotel for the week, then that’s ok) and do that. This is a stressful experience, for sure.

    3. Competent Commenter*

      Just push through the awkward. It really is okay. I can say that from both an employee and a supervisor perspective. Keep your head up and be apologetic and professional about it but not groveling (not that you were going to grovel!).

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve had new hires with emergencies. A month is long enough to being moderately trustworthy. I would take her at her word.

      And I’m going to strongly suggest you stay in contact with her. Show her it’s really a nutzo emergency setup

      My partner had his car crapout upon arrival his first day. Thank God he made it though. He explained he would need to get it towed to a shop and everything after work. And then we had another car emergency about 3 weeks later. They were so kind about it. They even recommended a place right by where he could take it. He didn’t shift blame and made sure he was available regardless and you’re doing the same since you can work remotely! Just be honest and it’ll go so so so far!

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      If it feels awkward you may also want to share some pictures of the awful in a social sort of way. “Look! I’ve never seen my subfloor before. Isn’t it wild how the carpet padding just DISSOLVED?” That way she’ll get a real sense of what, “I need to go home and deal with this” looks like to you, that it’s not just a couple of water stains.

  96. suncrisp apple*

    The field that I want to work in is so small to non-existent here that there’s maybe one marginally related job posting every couple of months. On top of that, I’m trying to escape an abusive living situation. I’m dead set on getting a job in a different city but I’m struggling to get any attention as a non-local candidate with little experience. I’ve saved up a ton of money working this past year and I’m at my breaking point with the living situation. I feel like just packing up my bags and leaving.

    Any words of advice?

    1. CM*

      Pack up your bags and leave! Sounds like you have enough money saved up that you won’t starve if you don’t get a job immediately, and you can go someplace with better job prospects. Dealing with abuse is not worth it.

    2. Emily S.*

      I recommend making a very thorough plan for how and when you will leave. Enlist a friend or two if possible, for help.

      Then, when you’re ready, you must get out of that living situation. Figure out somewhere else you can go, even it’s just staying with a friend or relative temporarily.

      I left an abusive marriage two years ago. I planned, and planned, and planned before I was ready. Saved a lot. I got help from friends and relatives and it worked out well. I found another apartment to move to straight away (I was staying in the same city, so that was easier in my case than it would be in yours). I feel like leaving that relationship was the best thing I ever did for myself.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Echoing the pack and leave advise. I am also going to add that you should expand your job search to include some posting that are “close enough” in your new city so that you are either working in an adjacent field/role to support yourself.

  97. NotALlamaWrangler*

    Hoping to get some advice on how to address ‘years of experience’.

    I work in what is essentially a senior technical role but without the title and compensation. For some context, I train and lead ‘junior’ teammates on projects, who actually have the same title as me. My manager has said I should have already been promoted if not for internal company policies.

    I’ve recently opened my LinkedIn to recruiters and have gotten a few calls. All of whom mentioned salary ranges over 30% of what I am making now. So unsurprisingly, I have started searching for a new position. But what I noticed is that all the postings that interest me and offer similar levels of responsibility require 5+ years of experience. I have just under 4 years, but with work experience in another industry. How should I address not having the required years of experience? Any advice would be greatly appreciated =)

    1. CM*

      4 years is very similar to 5. You don’t need to address it at all if the type of work is the same, even if it’s a different industry. In your cover letter and resume, focus on the transferable skills you have that you would be bringing to the new job.

      1. NotALlamaWrangler*

        Sorry I wasn’t clear. I meant I have 4 years in this field, but I’ve also previously worked for a few years in another industry. This probably contributed to the increase in responsibilities so quickly in my current role due to the transferable skills and having more experience in general.
        I hear what you’re saying though about just focusing on what I can bring to the job. Thanks for the advice :)

    2. BRR*

      I think of it as partially knowing where your position, experience, and responsibilities fall on the career ladder. Years in the work force doesn’t automatically qualify you for more senior positions. I also know that a lot of postings ask for way more experience than necessary.

  98. Crylo Ren*

    Wondering if anyone here has dealt with a similar payroll issue and has any stories about how they resolved it.

    My husband and I opened a new joint savings account last summer and updated our direct deposit at our respective employers so that a portion of each paycheck goes to that account. Well, we checked the savings account last week and realized that none of my husband’s direct deposits are appearing in the account – which was weird, because his pay stub had the correct information/account number on it.

    Turns out that his employer’s payroll made a mistake that “affected a few people across his business unit” (their words) where people who updated their direct deposits to go to multiple accounts instead got their money funneled into the employee’s 401k and not to the other accounts specified. My husband was able to check and confirmed that yes, that money that he expected to have been diverted to the savings account got routed to the 401(k). But the fact is that part of several months’ worth of paychecks are now inaccessible to him (at least until he can withdraw it without penalty…so, in 30-ish years).

    Is there any recourse here, or should he just accept that the money is pretty much gone to him?

    1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

      Yeah, not sure on the specifics, but his payroll needs to reverse the transactions so that it’s not a penalty to him.

      Don’t let them tell you it’s not possible.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Yeah, that’s the thing he’s struggling with. He spent 4 hours on the phone with them when he discovered it and they’re adamant that they can’t reverse anything because the money already been divested into stocks etc. as part of the 401k plan and it would be subject to penalty by the 401k provider. I’m not sure if there’s other wording we could use, or if this counts as a case of wage theft, since technically the salary/benefit isn’t completely lost.

        To give credit where it’s due, he’s escalated it with his manager and she’s stepped in to communicate back and forth with payroll to see if there is a way to get it reimbursed, but his manager’s opinion is that it’s probably too tied up at this point.

        1. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

          He needs to escalate it within the payroll department as well. This was their mistake and they need to reverse it. Honestly this is one of those things if he’s able to set up a meeting with the head of the payroll department and then their boss he needs to do it. Face to face meeting is even better if possible.

        2. Crylo Ren*

          Also, I don’t know if this would change any advice given, but the total amount that was wrongly diverted was around $2k. So…it’s a big number, but it’s also not something that completely destroys our finances in the scheme of things.

          1. TooTiredToThink*

            Does the employer offer contribution matching? If so, and the 2k isn’t ultimately going to hurt, then I wouldn’t worry about it (personally – and this is coming from someone where I would have noticed that 2k a lot sooner cause it would have hurt me badly). I tried googling and it IS possible for companies to reverse contributions – but where I saw it being used was the employer contributions.

            I hope it works out!

          2. Ali G*

            If he normally contributes the max ($19k this year) to the 401(K) then he will get the money back at the end of the year once he reaches the threshold (so he will just reach it earlier in the year than normal).

            1. Crylo Ren*

              Hmm…he does not contribute anywhere close to the max, so I don’t think that would apply in this case.

              Just for my education, what does that mean, “get the money back at the end of the year” if he did contribute the max amount? Does that mean he’d be able to withdraw that extra amount back out from the 401k without any penalties?

              1. Neosmom*

                There is a cap on the amount of money an individual can contribute in any plan year. Once you reach that threshold, you cannot contribute any more $ until the next plan year begins.

                1. Ali G*

                  Yes, so once you reach the max, they stop taking money out of your paycheck. In this situation, if he did contribute the max, it would be like pre-paying for it (instead of spreading $19k over all the paychecks all year, it would be front-loaded). But since he doesn’t you should fight to get it back now.
                  One thing that just occurred to me – if it’s less of a pain, could he just change his 401(k) contribution to $0 until he catches up? I can change mine any time I want. Although on principle I think payroll should fix this, but if they are jerks, this could be an option.

        3. Ranon*

          If ultimately it is subject to penalty to reverse it, then they need to pay the penalty. Your husband didn’t make the error, he shouldn’t have to pay to fix it or wait to have access.

      2. E*

        Agree with don’t let payroll say it’s not possible. He didn’t authorize the funds to be put in 401k, so they could be in trouble in a 401k audit I’d think. Payroll will push back because it’s a pain to them to fix, but they caused the problem.

    2. Competent Commenter*

      My employer accidentally took about $400 out of my paycheck and put it into my pretax childcare account, and they were able to back it out. I know this is more complicated, but it really is their fault so I’d keep pushing, and take the other posters’ advice about how.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Thank you! I’m glad to hear that this has worked out. If you wouldn’t mind my asking, do you recall what you said to them or how you handled that conversation to get them to back it out? I guess I’m mostly just looking for scripts or a way to frame the discussion.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      If they’re claiming it can’t come back out, they need to figure out how to equal everything out by using the contributions he’s already making to his 401k. Like – Restore the full “lost” amount themselves then temporarily take what would have been the 401k contribution amount themselves so they’re reimbursed over time.

      Because, here’s the thing to not lose track of when talking to them. Even though you were putting that money in savings, that was LIQUID savings. It could just as easily have been a second checking account meant to pay bills or something. His employer is shorting him cash on his pay – especially if his normal 401k contributions were still going on at the time. They don’t get to decide how payroll funds are allocated account-wise just because they made a mistake. Their responsibility is to make their employees whole immediately, then figure out a way to recoup those funds for themselves over time. It should not be on their employees to wait around to get access to their EARNED money back.

      ALSO – he needs to follow up on the tax situation here. If that was payroll money it would have been taxed before it went into the savings account, but a 401k contribution is pre-tax. So was that money taxed AND put in the 401k? Because that is a BIG problem if that’s the case.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Thank you – this is all incredibly helpful! We both knew this is gross and the way that payroll is just brushing him off is gross, but we were having a hard time articulating exactly why, and this wording is a huge help.

        The tax situation is a great call-out and adds much more urgency to this as well since this happened starting last year, and so we’ll need to make sure that everything is appropriately reported for our own tax returns too. Ughhhhh!!!

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          And if it’s true that there’s no way to pull that out without paying penalties, the employer should be pulling that money out and paying those penalties, and whatever amount you get back should equal the amount “lost”. This is all the employer’s fault here, and they should be scrambling to fix it. If other employees were really impacted, can he find out who and push back on this as a group?

          When this does get straightened out just make sure that your total $$$ restored is right. With all this pre-tax/post-tax/penalty talk, there’s a lot of places for stray dollars to slip through the cracks.

    4. BRR*

      First I would make sure it was the right amount since a 401(k) is pretax. I would search around a bit and also call whoever is administering the 401(k) to see if it can be reversed. Don’t let them deflect either. I can see people being defensive in this situation and saying things like “you still got the money.” I would be prepared with replies to keep them focused. I’d also have up my sleeve that I didn’t authorize this and “What is going to be done to fix this?” Not what “can” be done but what “will” be done.

      Echoing others: If it can be done it’s possible people are going to be lazy about it and make sure it’s also escalated on the payroll side because I can see people pulling a CYA. I can imagine a scenario where someone says it can’t be done because their manager would then notice their error.

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Thank you. Yes, the fact that this was unauthorized is going to be the main point he’ll make when he escalates this. He did call the 401k administrator and they basically just punted him back to payroll.

        I’m glad to be validated that we’re not overreacting about this. His HR/payroll has been remarkably unconcerned about this and we were both beginning to feel crazy about feeling that this was a big deal.

    5. American Ninja Worrier*

      If there’s truly no way for payroll to get those contributions back, they need to just eat the difference and pay your husband the $2k to make him whole. This is their error and you shouldn’t be on the hook for it. That’s a much bigger number to an individual employee than it is to a business.

  99. Red Lipstick and a Book*

    I got accepted to a summer school in my boyfriend’s city to learn the local language. This will help me so much with my life and job search there when I move. So excited!
    Hope you’ve all had some great news coming in this past week.
    Any best of summer school stories you’d like to share? How to make the most of the programs/course?

  100. Alaska Roll*

    Is it inappropriate to tell my boss that I am taking sick day(s) due to a miscarriage?

    Context: I have been at my job for about six months, I am loving it, and my boss is super happy with my work. We have a good working relationship and she is a good manager.

    I just found out I am pregnant, however I had some worrying symptoms and took a sick day yesterday to see the doctor. After three hours at the doctor’s office, it appears to be ecopic but the doctor could not confirm (and the other alternatives were not good). I have to go back tomorrow for more tests, but I am probably going to lose the pregnancy either way.

    Yesterday I told my boss that I was going to be out sick without more details, and it was fine. She is not the type of boss to request details or a doctor’s note. But what if I need to miss work again next week? Would it be too much information at that point to tell my boss I am having a miscarriage and need to take a day off for a medical procedure? I wouldn’t go into specifics, just tell her in a sentence or two what is happening.

    To be clear, I know I don’t *have* to tell her it’s a miscarriage but I think I might feel better telling her what is going on instead of having a parade of nebulous doctors appointments (I have had four in four months, not all pregnancy related) and sick days, and I may not be my usual self for a few days.

    So, is it ok to tell her, or is that a bad idea?

    1. ArtsNerd*

      If you feel comfortable telling her, then tell her!

      It would be a kindness to her if you know and specify exactly what kind of support you need, e.g. just explaining what’s up and why you are going to be out and out of sorts and please just treat me as usual, vs. some specific acknowledgment of your loss or what have you.

      1. Alaska Roll*

        This is a great point. If I do tell her I will make sure to tell her what I need even if it is just “treat me like normal.”

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t tell her. If you need enough days that she requires a note, ask your doctor for as little detail as possible.

    2. Murphy*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with all of that.

      If you’re comfortable telling her, there’s nothing wrong with it. I think it’s fine to be vague too. Do whatever you think will make you feel comfortable.

    3. PB*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      I think it’s absolutely okay to tell her that it’s a miscarriage. As you note, you don’t *have* to, but in this case, since you’re comfortable sharing more details, and it would give you some peace of mind, I think it’s fine.

    4. Youth*

      I’m so sorry. If you just want to make some vague comments about a medical procedure with ongoing post-op care, that’s probably sufficient.

    5. Kathenus*

      I’m so sorry. I’d do whatever makes you feel best, versus basing your decision on what you think your boss might want. If it reduces your stress to be open about it so you’re not worrying about perceptions of your appointments and not being your ‘usual self’. If you’d prefer to keep the reason to yourself for any reason, then do that. Whatever makes this easiest on you is the way I’d suggest you handle it.

    6. Alaska Roll*

      Thanks all for your kind words and advice. It’s good to hear that it’s ok to tell my boss about it if I want to.

    7. wandering_beagle*

      To echo what a lot of other people have said, it sounds like it would make you feel better if you were upfront with her. However, if you do tell her, I feel like it’s also worth saying something that communicates how you expect her to handle that information when it comes to your co-workers. Like either, “I trust that this is just between us” or “if my co-workers ask, it is OK for you to tell them I am dealing with a medical issue.” I know that because it’s a medical-related absence that she shouldn’t be sharing that with co-workers anyway, but it’s always good to be explicit about your expectations.

    9. A Non E. Mouse*

      First, I’m sorry.

      Second, tell her what you are comfortable telling her. For one I shared details, for the second I just took sick time and called it a stomach bug. Different bosses, different level of comfort.

      Third, be kind to yourself and take the time you need both for physical and emotional needs. One thing I did not anticipate was how much the miscarriages affected me physically, and so I didn’t just need the day-of off work…I needed a few to recover physically as well.

  101. Lentils*

    So, my wife has been working as a file clerk/office assistant at an auto loans company for about six months, and is making minimum wage for our area ($15/hr). She’s been anxious because in her interview when they discussed pay, she asked for $16 and her now-boss mentioned that they always start new clerks at minimum wage but that they would talk about a raise at her three-month evaluation.

    Her evaluation was supposed to be in November, but then her boss was unexpectedly out of town for a funeral, and then the holiday rush happened and they both forgot to schedule a 1:1 for it. She’s planning on scheduling the evaluation with him soon, but she’s anxious about whether or not to bring up the raise. I’m not sure if that was just a comforting fib her boss told her, or if it would even be appropriate to bring up after only six months. Does anyone have any input on this?

    (For more context: she does do all her assigned tasks much faster/more efficiently than the clerk she replaced, her bosses adore her and offer her praise and feedback as needed, and she has taken on additional work as needed when people are out of the office, but I’m unsure if that would factor into the possibility of a raise.)

    1. CM*

      Yes, bring it up! This is an easy one: “When I interviewed, you mentioned that we would talk about a raise at my three-month evaluation.” That’s all she needs to say to get a response from the boss.

      1. Queen of Cans and Jars*

        I’d also add, if Boss says, “Yep, we’ll talk about it soon,” she should push to schedule a meeting. She doesn’t want to let that “soon” end up meaning another 3 months.

      2. Lentils*

        Hah, yeah, I thought it was pretty clear cut but she was tying herself in knots so I promised I’d ask here. Thanks so much for the script!

  102. RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone*

    So… Just a PSA to all and a bit of a funny resume experience. Check your metadata if you are not using a PDF for your resume!

    I was copying a batch of received resumes for my open position over to a shared folder when I just happened to glance down at the folder footer, you know where it shows some of the metadata. Well under the Author: section I notice a really funny author name. I’m going to add more like them as not to out the person publicly, but I can assure you that one of them was the Author name.

    Welsh Warrior
    Nigerian Nightmare
    Japanese Juggernaut

    Hey… hiring is hard work, gotta take the laughs where you can find them!

    1. nonegiven*

      My Outlook Express header for Usenet said:

      Organization: Actually, disorganization would be more accurate.

  103. Kathleen_A*

    How much information about a difficult boss should Difficult’s staff provide to new coworkers? I have such a boss, and I’ll have two new coworkers within the next couple of weeks. Difficult isn’t a bad person, and she has many skills and gifts, but Lord, can she be difficult, and I would hate to see someone new tread on any of the many landmines that you encounter when working with Difficult. On the other hand, it’s possible that the new people will have a less fraught relationship with her than I sometimes do, at least at first. I mean, sooner or later they will experience her temper or moodiness or micromanagement or whatever, but possibly not for a while.

    So what do you think? How much to say or not to say?

    1. MuseumChick*

      My strategy in the past has been to say things like “Make sure you ask Difficult before you do X, Y, or Z” or “When you are washing the llama, us the green brush, Difficult hates when we use the the blue brush.” in a matter of fact tone.

    2. matcha123*

      When I have had new people in my office, I try to invite them out to lunch or coffee after work with the intent of giving them an office run-down. In fact, I let them know that. I also try to be as objective as possible.
      “Grace has been working here for the past 20 years. She knows the office well and I strongly suggest you go to her for questions about XYZ. She doesn’t like talking about her personal life, so I would avoid pushing those topics. She also doesn’t mesh well with Janice. They have different personalities, and kind of avoid each other.” etc.

      I wish the people at my office now would have done that for me, rather than passively try to suggest that I do something.

      Asking someone to coffee so you can frame a coworker in a bad light and spread gossip? No.
      Asking someone to coffee to give them information they need to succeed in the office? Heck to teh YEAH.

  104. In pain at work*

    I am waiting for a diagnosis, but right now, I’m in a lot of pain at work. It’s gotten rather obvious, since I can’t do much without wincing or gasping in pain. I’ve been crying on and off all morning. There is no one to cover my work if I take a sick day. What do I tell my manager?

    regardless of the diagnosis, I’m looking at a life-changing chronic illness that seems to be progressing rapidly. It’s an it’s an either this or that diagnosis that I’m waiting for – there is no everything is fine, take some ibuprofen and rest this weekend option at this point. I’m either at the middle stages of a relatively mild disease or rapid-onset and severe of a brutal one.

    Layoffs are coming and I’m worried about crying at work and being in obvious pain will make me an easy target. Also, in pain, so not thinking clearly.

    1. Junior Dev*

      Hugs. I’m really sorry. I’ve had chronic pain from an injury in the past and it was truly awful. I don’t have great advice on how to handle the work side of things but I hope you’re able to focus on your health and taking care of it–i know how desperate it can feel to stay employed but the fact is you may work at many companies over your life, but you only get one body. Even if the diagnosis is something incurable, stress levels and self care can impact how it affects you a lot. Hugs and I hope you get good news (relatively speaking) on all fronts.

    2. CM*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. It sounds like you need this job and feel that taking sick time is not feasible. I’m assuming you’ve done what you can about pain relief, but if you’re only considering OTC options, you might consult someone about managing the severe pain you’ve been having. If you’ve been crying it’s probably noticeable, so you might say something to your manager about how you don’t feel well but will do your best to get your work done.

      1. In pain at work*

        I am working with a specialist, but waiting for lab work to confirm diagnosis, which can take up to a week or more. I am on prescription NSAIDs, but am waiting to hear back from the doctor about possible alternatives.

        I can take sick time, and may this afternoon, but there is a ton of construction right outside my apartment complex this month, so not relaxing at all.

        1. valentine*

          You need to take sick leave. Put yourself first. Let your employer worry about the lack of coverage. (Why would they lay you off if you’re the only you?)

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I think you could tell your manager that you’re having some significant health issues right now that you are working through, and that you would appreciate any suggestions from her on how to handle sick days as far as workload (who would that work need to get handed to).

    4. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry; ouch, and I know that panic.

      If you’re in the US and you qualify for FMLA, request FMLA ASAP; consider intermittent FMLA if you can work shorter days or shorter weeks and that will help. That’s working at least 1250 hours for them (at least 25 hours per week, roughly) in the previous year and having worked for them for at least a year; the employer has to have at least 50 employees within a 75-mile radius. Some states offer broader coverage. FMLA protects your job.

      If your employer isn’t large enough for FMLA but has 15 or more employees, it’s covered by the ADA. If you think a diagnosis is coming soon, I might hold off until I get one to request ADA accommodation, but again, that would protect your job.

      But I’m in a unit where there’s no coverage when somebody goes out, and you know what? Too bad; people still take time out, and we survive. I get that with layoffs coming it feels particularly risky to take time off, but there’s no guarantee about being kept either way, and you have to look at more than the next few months of your life here. So unless your manager is horrible, I’d talk to her and I’d take advantage of any legal leave and accommodations I was eligible for.

      Good luck, and I hope things improve for you.

  105. Junior Dev*

    I’m in a weird set of circumstances:

    1. Had a lot of bad jobs in the past, a common theme is bosses not telling me they were upset with me about something I did until it was far too late to fix it
    2. I’m in a new job where my boss has told me to stop asking permission for so many things and to just (go for a run in the middle of the work day, leave early for a doctor’s appointment, work from home) – we’re a tech company and I have unlimited PTO so it’s very informal
    3. I’m really struggling with mental health problems and sometimes I just randomly can’t concentrate in the middle of the day–hence wanting to go for a run or a workout at random times–or have to go cry in the bathroom. This has happened multiple times in the past week.

    (Please no advice regarding the medical side of things, I’m working on it)

    I feel like 2 is hard because there’s this underlying assumption that “you’re an adult, I trust you to manage your time” but like. I am not feeling like a competent, normal adult at all. I know my sense of this is skewed by my jerkbrain/general low self esteem. I’ve read the Captain Awkward article about “how to tighten up your game at work” but I truly cannot get there at 9AM every day and it’s actually a really important accommodation (informally) for me to be able to come in whenever so long as I don’t miss things.

    How do I deal with “I trust you, you’re an adult” type of managing philosophy when I really don’t trust myself? When I’ve been fired and yelled at for random stuff I had no idea was a problem?

    1. Rebecca1*

      See if you can formalize your existing informal accommodations- that might help with any concern about being yelled at.

    2. MuseumChick*

      It may be helpful to talk with your boss about this and explain the types of bosses you’ve had in the past and you are still adjusting to having a non-micromanaging/trusting boss. You two might be able to come up with way to make you feel more comfortable with that level of freedom in your job.

      I assume by “informal” you mean you don’t have the accommodation in writing? To protect yourself, I would start with getting any accommodations you need more formalized.

    3. CM*

      I would say something to your boss like, “I really appreciate the flexibility here, especially since I concentrate a lot better when I’m able to take breaks. But in past jobs, I’ve had experiences where I didn’t get any feedback that I was doing something wrong until it was too late to fix it. I’m going to take your advice about just doing things instead of asking permission every time, but can I count on you to tell me if you have any concerns or want me to do anything differently?” And then maybe check in after a month or so, like at a 1-on-1, ask again if the boss has any concerns or if there’s anything you should be doing differently.

    4. LGC*

      Practice?

      I think the real issue isn’t your jerkbrain, it’s the toxic jobs. It sounds like you’ve been burned for assuming things were fine when they weren’t, so you’re compensating by checking in every time. And your boss is saying you don’t have to do that. So don’t do it!

      You can definitely ask what he thinks reasonable amounts of time away would be, though. (And if you might need more breaks or more appointments than “reasonable”, that’s good to have out there.) And make a note of his answer.

    5. LadyGrey*

      It might be worth making taking a midday running break a regular thing? Scheduling it should help if you’re worried about being unexpectedly unavailable. Treat it like a lunch break!,

  106. Kitchen Babyheads*

    So this is the somewhat sad conclusion to the baby pictures in the kitchen saga. When I last updated, a senior staffer said that maybe the signs could be changed after the new year. As of last week they were still up (the kitchen sink wasn’t too bad though). In mid January the staffer struggling with infertility told me the last IVF cycle had worked and she was pregnant. Sadly, she texted me last week that she received bad news at her dr office. (I was on vacation) I heard from someone else that she was extremely upset at work, so another employee went to HR and successfully asked for the signs to come down. Apparently next month a new kitchen cleaning effort will begin with designated assignments.
    I’m trying to be as supportive as possible to this staffer. There have definitely been some great suggestions on this blog, but feel free to add more here.

  107. Environmental Compliance*

    After a discussion with the Boss about annual reviews, how he thinks I’m doing, and an odd inclusion of how he doesn’t think women should be paid less than men (since apparently the male HS to the EHS dept was paid ‘significantly’ more than myself), I got a pretty great raise!

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’m pretty excited. This is the first job I’ve had where my boss is a normal, reasonable person and doesn’t have their hands tied by government bureaucracy.

  108. Rebecca1*

    I just want to post here to thank Alison for the résumé advice in her columns. It helped get me several interviews and two job offers, one of which I have accepted. So, thank you!

  109. Jennifer*

    I think the most awkward workplace yesterday was the Empire set. I don’t know how Jussie showed his face.

        1. Mobuy*

          How can you even think that? It’s pretty clear that he’s a lying, dramatic, idiot who will be a liability for the foreseeable future.

  110. Bekx*

    I have a new coworker (but not new to the company) who keeps checking over my work. I don’t think it’s malicious, I think he’s genuinely trying to improve things…but it is making me feel territorial and defensive (which are my problems, I know). He’s done this 4 times this week alone to me. He does it to my other coworkers too, but it feels very patronizing.

    The thing is– his changes are right. They ARE better. But it’s the way that it feels – him checking over my work after it’s already done — that feels really aggressive. I mentioned in passing a project I’m working on that needed to go out that day, he took it upon himself to duplicate my project, make changes, and then talked to Brand/Compliance about how what he did was better. WTF. This is not his role. I’m not sure if he just doesn’t have much to do or what.

    It is better. He’s right. But I’m getting really irritated about this (as are my coworkers who he’s done this too, as well). I would like him to stop, as I feel like now I have to guard my work because he just keeps making changes. Is there a script I can use? He does not do the same job I do, but he’s dabbled in it a bit, so it’s annoying to have him constantly correcting my work.

    1. MuseumChick*

      This sounds super frustrating. The next time this happens you could try (In a confused, light tone)

      “Oh? Who asked you to look this over?”
      “I’m kind of confused. If you are having concerns with the quality of my work please address them directly with me.”
      “I got this, thanks.”

      Or the more direct:

      “Fergus, I’ve notice that you pretty consistently look over and make chances to my projects. It’s my understanding that this isn’t part of your role, if I’m wrong about that please correct me. Going forward I have to ask you to stop unless I specifically ask you for help.”

      1. Bekx*

        Thank you!!! I guess I’m struggling being too direct about this because he IS right. Those changes he is making do look/work better than the ones I did.

        1. fposte*

          Where’s your manager in all this? Not all “better” is worth the time, and it’s definitely not time I want somebody to unilaterally decide is what his work hours are for.

          Now if they are worth it, I might officially change the workflow so that he does a proofreading and polish round on stuff, but that’s not an elevation or anything; it’s just “Okay, you’re the one who catches the failed em dashes, so now you’re in charge of them,” and not something where he gets to crow about having made the building just because he stuck the antenna on the top.

          1. Bekx*

            My manager is very hands-off of us for the most part- which is good and bad. He’s also worked with this guy for years and brought him on our team as soon as he could.

            I also just learned that he attended a meeting about one of my projects! Basically, our projects all have to go through review with brand and legal, and he started talking to someone in brand about my project and then got asked to join their meeting where it came up. Our team is not usually a part of those meetings, but what the hell.

        2. CM*

          If you want, you could combine MuseumChick’s direct script with telling him that even though he’s been offering improvements in a way that disrupts your work, you actually do think his improvements are good, and would like to sit down with him to get general feedback and suggestions. But this opens the door to making him think he’s your coach/mentor beyond that one meeting, so if you think that may happen and are not up for that, don’t do it.

          1. Bekx*

            Yeah I don’t want to do that. He’s already 10 years older than me and I’m definitely more experienced in my line of work than he is. He knows a lot of strategy and tangentially related stuff, but not what I’m doing specifically.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Honestly the scripts you were provided are only going to make the situation worse. He’s still probably going to do the same thing because you have to admit, he’s right in the end and his suggestions are better.

      If your manager is not going to step up, you may have to choke it down and it will create more tension among the team. Which again, your manager needs to do something either by saying he’s okay to do this or he’s not.

      I understand why you’re territorial but there needs to be a mediator here, not just you telling him to knock if off. It doesn’t sound like you have the authority to really make him stop…it needs to be a boss saying “I like that you’re taking initiative here but at the same time, you need to be focused on Your Own Work not that of others, please stop over-stepping into their work.” etc.

      It sounds like you’re feeling bristly because you have experience and he doesn’t, yet he’s got some good adjustments to bring to the table. Do you feel like he’s gunning for your job or something? You should use this as a reason to start some self improvements and brushing up in areas that he’s one-upping you on. Why is he able to make things better without your experience? What are you overlooking? Use this to your advantage instead of just telling him to stay in his lane and seething!

      1. Bekx*

        This is good advice. I don’t think he’s gunning for my job, but I do think he’s more detail oriented than I am, which is where he is coming up with some of these ideas. Honestly the ideas are great, it’s just the way he’s approaching them. My job is more tactical, where his is more analytical and strategy.

        I’ll have to think about some of this stuff, you’re right and I need to take a step back. It was just super annoying to have him do this multiple times a week.

  111. SquigglyPanda*

    When we switched to an open layout, we were given noise cancelling headphones. Can I keep them or do I need to return them when I quit?

    1. fposte*

      Ask whoever handed them out. (And thank them for their forethought–it always galls me that employees have to pay for them whens somebody else thrusts the environment on them.)

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I would ask, but lean on the side of keeping them. A lot of headphone styles are hard to clean and I kind of think it would be gross to get a pair of used headphones, especially if they were used for a long amount of time.

      1. SquigglyPanda*

        The ear cushions are replaceable… but yes, I was a little grossed out when I had to borrow a set for a meeting.

    4. foolofgrace*

      I think they’re a part of office equipment, and stay with the employer. You wouldn’t expect to keep file folder organizers or mousepads.

  112. Jayess*

    I was a little late to the party a few weeks back, so this is a repeat question; my apologies.

    I’m currently working in a public library system. I have a 2-year diploma that is required where I live to work as a “library technician” or “library assistant” or insert title. I’ve already maxed out my earning potential after not even a full 2-years in the position, so I’ve accepted that in order to seek career growth (important to me), I will need a BA and an MLIS (if I continue in the library sphere). I have 2 previous 2-year diplomas, and have at this point resolved to do a General Studies undergrad (fastest way to finish), but to augment a sometimes-nearly-meaningless degree by completing a GIS certificate and an extended minor in Geography (closest thing I can get to a major without putting me back a full year’s worth of classes).

    My question is: what else should I be looking out for? I’m fine with the trajectory that I’m on, but since I am currently expanding my options, what other doors should I be keeping an eye out for? There’s a lot of librarians on AAM; what other (specific) industries have you been able to transfer your skills and schooling into? Someone last time I asked this question said “consulting,” which is great? But consulting on what?

    Part of why I want to know more options is that while I’m *fine* in the library world, I find myself ambitious, like to be busy, and am already a little beat down by the relentless bureaucracy of working in the public sphere. I don’t want to get stuck on one track and miss an opportunity to find a job that is a better match for me. I do better in jobs that I can effect change – I’ve been an excellent manager in the past, and being at the second-to-last rung of the hierarchy is challenging to me. I’m capable at risk-assessment, good with people and communication, and would actually prefer a more physically demanding job if such a thing exists. My previous work was in adventure tourism and associated retail, and I miss moving around, moving things around, and seeing physical results from the work of my hands. There aren’t a lot of field librarian jobs unfortunately.

    So tl;dr, if you’re a librarian or have a degree in Geography… tell me what you do! I want to know where I can go with my skills and knowledge.

    1. DataGirl*

      I’m technically a librarian in that I have an MLIS. But upon graduating I found that to be an academic librarian, which was my goal, I would need a second Master’s (at least here the Universities/Colleges require you to be a ‘subject matter expert’ in something even if you do cataloging or reference or whatever. They want everyone to participate in collection development. Also, in my state to be a K-12 librarian you have to have a teaching certificate/degree, so that would require more school. And public library jobs are unicorns, they are so rare. So I found out about the time I was graduating that my degree was pretty much useless, at least in my city/state. Thankfully, within my LIS degree I did a sub-specialty of technology, meaning I took a few web dev and database classes. Those got me an entry level job in IT upon graduation, and I’ve been in that world ever since (10+ years). All that to say, if I were you I’d find something in conjunction with what you are already studying to develop skills in. GIS is great, I tangentially worked with GIS data two jobs ago and I still get contacted by recruiters who see those three letters on my resume and think I can do a full-time job with it. Where I worked, the GIS people were mostly programmers/data analysts/ engineers- so I’d highly recommend picking up some technology skills to go with it. Best wishes!

      1. WakeUp!*

        The second masters for a cataloguer sounds pretty unusual. Actually, cataloguers are increasingly paraprofessional positions. Jayess, please don’t assume this advice applies to your area.

    2. Drago Cucina*

      I was a school librarian for 10 years and had my elementary education degree for my certification. I’m now the director of a mid-size public library. No, there aren’t a lot of field library jobs, but there are some libraries that would love your skills. For example, we’re building the state’s largest outdoor class/mini-botanical garden and will be hiring a full time person to over see the space. Someone with a parks and recreation management degree would be amazing. Especially if they had an understanding of library world.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      See if you can talk to some of the librarians in the AGSL collection at UW-Milwaukee. It’s a huge geographic collection and some of them actively do GIS work.

  113. BookCocoon*

    Has Alison ever done an article (here or elsewhere) about how in general you can talk to someone who’s annoying you without having to make it into a huge conversation? I know it’s a common theme in a lot of letters, but I’m hoping to find one post or article that kind of summarizes that advice to share with our residence hall staff. It’s very similar to the conversations a lot of them have to have with students to coach them on saying to their roommate, “Hey, could you please use headphones?” when they’ve worked themselves up into a frenzy about it and now are requesting to move rooms because they think otherwise it’s going to require a huge conversation with their roommate about how annoyed they’ve been for the past four months.

    1. whatever works*

      I haven’t, but her general advice seems to be “be direct, friendly, and unemotional.”
      Instead of “SUZY IF YOU USE YOUR MUSIC ONE MORE TIME” “Hey, Suzy, I need you to use headphones with your music because I find it hard to sleep otherwise. Thanks!” (in a cheery tone).

      1. BookCocoon*

        Yep, I was hoping there was a standalone post that summarizes this advice. I couldn’t find one searching but I thought someone else might remember.

    2. Reba*

      Not exactly what you’re asking, but try the podcast episode “what your tone should sound like in tricky work conversations.”

  114. Karen from Finance*

    Yesterday’s “reply all” post reminded me that I have a group chat story.

    Manager takes his team out to dinner to a very fancy and luxurious restaurant as a year-end gift. Halfway through the dinner, Jane, who had been on her phone on and off during the dinner, suddenly texts the team group chat: “yeah, ofc, I’m just here, like, doing my best to act like they’re not all a bunch of idiots”.

    Manager is the first to see the text. He looks down, looks up, and says amusedly “I’m sorry for being such idiots”.

    I was a former team member, so I wasn’t invited to the dinner but I did get to see the whole thing go down via texts. (Full disclosure, a lot of them were private IM’s with my friend on site that mostly went “WTF” and “LOL”).

    Poor girl quit 2 months later. Spent the whole time trying and failing to convince everyone that it was OTHER people she had been trash talking.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The response makes me giggle so much. That’s how I would have reacted as well.

      She sounds like the girl who quit recently. She referred to a few people here as “douches” in private to me thinking I was catty too. My response was “we seem to have different ideas of what constitutes a douche.” She stopped trying me.

  115. Help Me work With Others*

    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-15-16-2019.html

    If you recall from last week, I was having an issue with the designer on a big project that is launching Monday next.
    I appreciated the comments and was concerned about my part in the breakdown of communication. On Monday,I reflected with my supervisor and examined the project plan. She confirmed that all of the changes that I was asking for were nailed down months ago with him and he chose not to complete the project as asked. She said that she would take care of the situation and that he was under a lot of stress from other deadlines.

    There were three elements that I needed and one that I let go of.
    My supervisor communicated with him how it needed to be. This week he made those changes communicating with me, ccing the supervisor for approvals on the revisions. As of yesterday at 5:00 only one piece is missing and I have no concerns that it will be completed by our deadline. It does look great and I am working on letting go of the 4th element. (taking the win) Thank you for your advice.

  116. Magenta*

    I work in a relatively small company, a guy I used to manage who is now in another department is dating a woman who used to be in my team but left the company.

    When she left the company it was for a job I didn’t think she was qualified for and less than three months later I got a reference request for a hospital that her twin sister works at. She has been seen with an NHS lanyard but her boyfriend thinks that she still works for the company she left us for. She told him she has the lanyard because the company she works for is doing a project with the police at the hospital. The company is consumer focused and has nothing to do with healthcare or law enforcement.

    This week someone we used to work with years ago joined our company and when we were chatting mentioned that another mutual friend had started at the hospital and was working with the girlfriend. The boyfriend said “girlfriend doesn’t work there, she must have confused her with her twin sister as they are identical”. Our new joiner has checked with her friend who confirmed they both work there.

    Now I know this is very convoluted and confusing and also probably none of my business but I hate seeing him being lied to. I’ve been in a relationship with someone who kept lying to me and I would hate for him to be in the same position. Also people are talking about this behind his back.

    Do I say anything?

    1. fposte*

      He’s been told several times already and he’s still convinced it’s not true–or at least publicly isn’t prepared to admit that it could be. I don’t see any reason for you to join in here. I’d try to encourage other people to focus on more elevating topics than lanyards and former employees’ current truthfulness and I’d talk less to him about his girlfriend.

      But if it turns out that there’s some elaborate twin-double job swapsies going on, you have to come back and tell us about it.

      1. valentine*

        Stop gossiping and cease participating in the CSI, especially about her.

        Have you or this guy even seen the alleged twins together?

    2. DataGirl*

      It may not be that he is being lied to, rather that he is lying to cover for his girlfriend, out of some sense that people at your workplace would be upset to find out that she is working at the new place. That would be my first assumption and imo a lot less weird than someone lying to their SO about their employer.

  117. AH*

    Hello commentariat, first-time commenter, long-time reader here! I have a two-part question for you all!

    Some quick info about me: I am a recent graduate pursuing a career in publishing. After receiving my BA in English, I attended a specific publishing institute, a four week in-depth course about the publishing industry. During my time at the institute, I figured out that I would like to work in managing editorial, and I connected with a managing editor from a publishing house who has given me advice for my career. I have followed his advice since I left the institute and have started two additional certificates (in project management and copyediting) to improve my resume. I am also currently doing an internship that seems like a great opportunity for me.

    Now for the question. I recently discovered a paid managing editorial internship based in NYC (I am from another state) with the managing editor’s company. It would be a perfect opportunity for me, as entry-level jobs in managing editorial are fairly scarce and I believe I would be a great fit for the position. I plan to apply using your advice, but I am unsure of my chances because I am not yet living in New York. I have plans to move after my internship ends in April, and the internship I am applying for won’t start until June, so I should have time to find a place to live and get settled before I would hypothetically start the internship. I am worried, though, that my application might be ignored or denied simply because I am not currently living in the area. I plan to mention that I will be moving in my cover letter, but is there any specific wording that you’d recommend I use? Should I just state it at the beginning of the cover letter and move on to my qualifications as a candidate, or should it be a more substantial part of my letter?

    Also, I am considering reaching out to the managing editor that I have corresponded with, because he works for the same company (albeit in a separate location across the country). I am hoping that he might have a relationship with the department I am applying to and that he can pass my name along. Would this be professionally acceptable? He seemed very willing to offer me advice, complimented me on my drive, and encouraged me to stay motivated, so I think he would be willing to pass my name along. I plan send him a copy of my resume (unless that would be weird) so that he can be sure that I’m a worthy candidate before mentioning my name to anyone, but I am worried that I might be overstepping. Is it okay to ask for this from someone who doesn’t know me that well (just a few emails back and forth)? And if so, how should I ask him? I have never asked for this kind of favor from someone before, and I am worried about being the horrible young professional that is so often discussed on the blog.

    Sorry for the long post! Any advice you can give me would be so appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      I’ll be interested to hear from people more actively in publishing, but my impression is that it’s pretty common for people to move for publishing internships and that just stating up front in your cover letter that you’d move to NYC for it would be fine. Since you haven’t actually worked for the managing editor, I’m leery of straight asking for him to pass your name along. What I’d be inclined to do is reach out to him to ask him if he has any advice for putting your best foot forward in your application there; generally if he knows somebody involved in the office and *wants* to mention you to them, that would be enough to make it happen.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Have the end date of your current internship on your resume, and mention it in the cover letter. I think it would be completely acceptable to reach out to the managing editor, but start out with an update on how you followed up on his suggestions, learned ABC from it, and are now looking at a new internship opportunity at the NYC location of his organization. He may then respond with a request for your resume and be able to reach out, or he may suggest you put his name down as a reference.

      I don’t think you would face much resistance for not being from NYC. Internships, especially in large cities, attract students and recent grads from all over. If you get the internship, several of the universities in NYC offer summer dorm housing specifically for out of state interns.

  118. darlingpants*

    How do you know if you should take a job? I’m interviewing for my first job out of grad school, and I’m expecting to here back from a company that recruited me today. I think I could do the job well, the people I’d be working with had great things to say about the boss, but I’m just not excited about the job. I’m also not excited about the location for the job, and with both of those things to consider I’m wondering if that’s a reasonable reason to turn it down. I’m not in a huge hurry, I have the option to stay at my post-doc until the end of May, but this is the first and only job that I’ve gotten an interview for (to be fair I haven’t sent that many applications). I’m also having a lot of anxiety about change: ending my job in my current lab, moving, finding a new house, finding new friends, and it’s hard to tell if that’s causing my ambivalence about the job.
    I’m sort of hoping I don’t get it, or that they offer it to me at a really low salary so I don’t have to figure this out. If it was May and I’d applied to 100 jobs and this was the only thing I’d been offered I’d probably take it, but since I feel like I have time and flexibility I’m holding out hope for something better.
    How do you choose which jobs to take when you’re feeling kind of ambivalent?

    1. StellaBella*

      I make lists. Pro and Cons of each job – commute time, benefits, work environment, people, etc. Good luck!

    2. Karen from Finance*

      > I’m sort of hoping I don’t get it, or that they offer it to me at a really low salary so I don’t have to figure this out. If it was May and I’d applied to 100 jobs and this was the only thing I’d been offered I’d probably take it, but since I feel like I have time and flexibility I’m holding out hope for something better.

      I agree with you. If it doesn’t feel quite right, it’s likely that these things that are turnoffs for you right now will continue to be there and bother you more as time passes. If you are at a point where you get to be picky, then .. you get to be picky, and take full advantage of that. If you are actually kinda hoping you don’t get it, I think it’s a good sign you shouldn’t accept it, because you are having the feeling it’s not a good fit.

      Now, if it were the case where you’ve been unemployed for 2 years, were going broke, and were still holding out for that “dream” job, my advice would be different, but I think for now you can keep looking to see what else is out there.

    3. Wild Bluebell*

      >>How do you know if you should take a job?
      >>I’m sort of hoping I don’t get it.

      Here’s your answer. You don’t want this job.
      So unless you really need a job (which it sounds like you don’t), don’t take it.

    4. DCR*

      Have you seen job openings that you are more excited about? Is it a possible you’re feelings have more to do with leaving an academic environment, and you’re gonna feel this way about all jobs?

      I’m not saying whether you should take it or not, but just consider where your feelings are coming from and weight that against your chances of getting other offers

  119. Cancer Crush Anon*

    Hi all! It’s been a long long time since I’ve posted, but I wanted to give you all updates!

    If you don’t remember me, I was posting this time last year about finding out my dad had cancer and a sexual harassment case at work happening in the same day. I can’t go into the latter stuff now for legal reasons, so hopefully y’all remember what happened.

    Just wanted to give an update:
    My dad is 1 year in remission! Woooo! He was 25 years in remission last time, so here’s hoping for 25+ more! Darn genetic cancer!

    My boyfriend who had been helping me at the time dealing with all of this crazy stress got a new job in a new city. I decided to look for a job with him and moved with him. That boyfriend is now my fiance and I’m super excited about that.

    My new job is awesome. My boss is super chill AND after less than a year….I got a promotion! I went from 12 days of PTO at my last job to a whopping 26 days! And my salary from this time last year to now rose about 63%!!!

    With our new jobs and salaries, we are going to pay for the wedding of our dreams by ourselves. We are very very thrilled.

    1. Best cat in the world*

      I was wondering how you were getting on the other day. Brilliant update, congratulations on all the great news! Fingers crossed for the legal stuff.

    4. Emily S.*

      WOW! It sounds like you’ve had a very good year.

      So happy for you! If I could, I would be pulling out some of my favorite emoji here: the party popper, bouquets of flowers, and a lot of sweet treats! Woohoo!

      Congratulations on your engagement, also!

    5. MechanicalPencil*

      That’s amazing! Congratulations!

      Also, has it really been a year? My how time flies. Please continue to update us on that other matter when you have the ability.

      1. Cancer Crush Anon*

        I’m sorry, I wish I could, but I cannot!

        Either way, thank you all for your positive words!!

  120. Serin*

    Anybody have ideas for a nice thank-you gesture for co-workers?

    A couple of my colleagues came and rescued me when my car was stuck in the snow. (I will never forget seeing the fearsome face that my mild-mannered cubemate made as he helped push my car until it unstuck.)

    My go-to thank-you is to bake someone cookies or bread or something, but both of these folks, in different ways, are very careful what they eat, and I don’t want to give them something they can’t enjoy.

    1. Excited about new role*

      In this situation, flowers, a thoughtful card with some sort of coffeeshop gift card, candles or bottle of wine would be my go-to, depending on personal preference and office dynamic. Really, though, anything heartfelt will be appreciated — a coworker of mine got me a board game as a thank-you and I was so touched.

    2. Laura H.*

      I would ask them! They know their diet best and if they like a certain occasional treat, you might be able to go with that.

    3. CheeryO*

      Honestly, a sincere thank you email would mean more to me than any goodies! Maybe you could treat them to a coffee or happy hour beer if they enjoy either of those things?

    4. CM*

      Nice office supplies? You can go either cute or distinguished with things like pens and binder clips. Or a small easy-to-care-for plant, like a little succulent? I’m assuming you want something more as a gesture, accompanied by a note, rather than a real present.

    5. Kathenus*

      A gift card to somewhere like Target or Amazon can be used for almost anything, so could be an option so it’s not just food/beverage related.

      2. Serin*

        I may combine this with CM’s suggestion above and attach a gift card to something small that can be displayed on their desks.

  121. Excited about new role*

    Hi there, Ask A Manager community!

    I’ve worked at my current company on the client success team for a little under 2 years; I have about 5 years of experience in the space total. After a very frustrating year, I made a move to transfer internally to the sales team, and I found out recently that I secured the position! I’m very excited to start the new role, and an offer letter is on its way.

    I’m reaching out because … I have no idea what to expect and/or should be looking for as far as a salary is concerned. The range on Glassdoor for the position I’m heading into is quite wide, and while I anticipate that it will be a raise from what I currently make, I want to make sure I’m not shortchanging myself and accepting something far below market value.

    Does anybody have any advice on other places I can look to get a better understanding of where I can inform myself of what to expect? Unfortunately, this particular role is a relative new one, and the one person I know in the department is an outlier as far as salary is concerned due to a previous role and being far senior.

    Any assistance is SUPREMELY appreciated. Thank you!

    1. DataGirl*

      Depending on the job you should be able to google [job title] + salary + [your city/state]. There are all kinds of websites that track this kind of thing and you can usually see the full range from lowest to highest, plus the median.

  122. It's a fish, Al*

    I’d love some reference advice:

    I’ve been working as a self-employed person for the last 15 years. I have a great track record, and happy clients. I’m entering the third stage of the hiring process for a government job (not USA) and if all goes well, I will have to provide references soon.

    How even do I do this? I feel awkward asking clients for a reference, and in any case, it’s probably not the kind of reference they want, plus I have NDAs with a number of clients (biology contract work, sensitive things around pipelines etc.). I haven’t had a manager in a decade and a half. The last person who could sort of be called my manager was my grad school supervisor, who was terrible, and we parted on bad terms.

    Advice? Sympathy? Help! I want this job!

    1. Oxford Comma*

      Well, the clients wouldn’t have to talk about the specifics of the work you’ve done with them. Usually, you ask a reference how you know the applicant and for how long and you ask about general job duties, but those could probably be answered without betraying trade secrets. The rest of the questions are typically about soft skills and qualities the candidate has or doesn’t have.

      1. senior jobseeker*

        Sometimes the name of the client is secret and the client may consider offensive if you want to abuse them as a reference. I understand how awkward it may be to ask a clients, as I am in a similar situation. Unlike bosses, the clients have no moral obligation to give references. Depending on your plans, you may neither want to tell your clients that you are planning to quit the business unless you are 100 % sure. In such a case, you want to maintain maximal business relations and asking any favors may not enhance your chances to get another deal, unless you know your client well and know that she was so pleased to you that wants to tell it everyone.

        I know in some countries (UK) you do not pass the first web page without giving three references, in some other it is just optional.

    2. Koala dreams*

      Do you have any other persons that know you in professional capacity that you can ask? Such as vendors or other people who work in your field?

    3. Public Health Nerd*

      In my field, vendors are often asked for a reference from clients during vendor selection. So your clients may have done this kind of thing before in that context, and this seems not wierd at all.

  123. Bubbleon*

    I (a manager) have to meet with another manager next week to talk about how a member of her team is causing problems when working with my and other teams. I have a few specific gripes, but they all fall under the umbrella of “your person just doesn’t play well with others,” and in a department of a few hundred people it’s pretty telling that this person is widely acknowledged as the most difficult to work with. I’m both looking forward to it because I’m optimistic that we can resolve some issues and dreading what comes after because we already know this person can’t accept feedback. Hopefully this person’s manager will be able to get through to them, otherwise working with this person after they’ve been called out is going to be even more miserable than usual.

    Wish me luck.

      1. valentine*

        If she’s not the only one who does what she does, can you avoid her or replace her as your team’s contact?

  124. RetreatQ*

    Hi! I’m wondering whether you all can shed some light on a question. My company is hosting our annual retreat in a tropical location (yay!). When the retreat logistics were announced, we were told that this year (for the first time ever) partners were invited – everything would be covered for them except their flight. My partner excitedly bought his. A few weeks later, we were sent another announcement, this one with more details. Partners are not included in any activities until the goodbye party – and we’ll be in mandatory sessions, including working dinners, the whole time until then. I feel this is really strange – so my question is, was it fair to assume that since guests were invited, they’d be included in events outside of working hours, or we’d have free time to spend with them then? Thanks in advance!

    1. RetreatQ*

      I’ll add that my partner is now no longer coming – and we’re eating the cost of the airfare – because it doesn’t feel like the PTO he’d take is worth it for what would essentially amount to a solo trip.

    2. CM*

      I think it’s a fair assumption. Any chance you could push back on this, possibly with coworkers? I’m sure others are having the same reaction, and may be in the same situation where the partner already bought their plane ticket.

    3. fposte*

      I’ll be curious to see what other people say. But while it would depend on the specific wording and past practice for me, I wouldn’t have assumed that there would be free time during an annual retreat.

    4. Kathenus*

      It would have been ideal if the announcement had given more details on what the partners were/were not included in so people could make an informed decision. But for a work-related retreat I definitely would not expect to be given free time to spend with a partner built into the schedule. I’d think they could be involved in social activities, but not work ones. So if an evening event was just a dinner or reception – yes, but if it was a roundtable discussion – no. So a lot depends upon the itinerary for the retreat as to whether or not it seems to be reasonable to not invite the partners to the activities. But in general it’s a work trip and a pretty nice perk that partners get much of their cost paid for by the company. So I see it’s frustrating if there were different expectations, but in general the restrictions don’t surprise me and I’d view it as a positive thing overall that the employer did with including them.

    5. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I wouldn’t have assumed that partners would be included in anything, unless they had been in previous years.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        But it does make me wonder: what is “covered” for partners, if they’re not attending company-sponsored meals/etc.?

    6. RetreatQ*

      Thanks, all! This is really helpful. I’ve spoken with a few colleagues about this, and I think we’re feeling equal parts silly for not clarifying, and surprised that the company would ‘semi-include’ guests. It sounds like the general assumption, which I’d had, was that we’d be working for normal business hours or perhaps a bit longer, and then would be free to enjoy dinner with our SOs or they’d be invited to our meals – otherwise, they wouldn’t have been invited. Clearly, that was incorrect; I’ll be much more explicit with these questions in the future, as I think a lot of us are in a similar boat and could have avoided some frustration and cancellation fees had we been clearer. Overall, though, we’re still really excited for our retreat (it’s a fantastic company, I think it’s just having some growing pains – we’ve gone from under 50 to nearly 150 employees in the past year, and don’t have a full-time HR person yet).

  125. time to accept?*

    I need advice! I have a firm written offer that is negotiated to my satisfaction after a week plus of back and forth. The job will position me well for my next career move in a few years but I don’t consider it a long term prospect. It will let me acquire and build skills I don’t currently have and has a commute I’m not wild about, but otherwise joining the team would be a great move. So I am ready to accept, but it is a conditional offer pending background check and drug test, and obviously I will say we can decide my start date (and therefore my notice date at current employer, which I have been itching to do for weeks already, even without an offer in hand) once those are complete and passed.

    I’ve also made it through the first round for an absolute dream position. An in person interview is scheduled for early next week. The job is a little outside my experience to date so I don’t have high hopes about my chances, but I want it BAD. It will be challenging, rewarding, and definitely a career step exactly in line with what I want to do long-term. Even at the lowest possible end of the range, it’s a better financial move than the firm offer. But because the firm offer has been in progress longer, I’ve run out of time to stall making a decision beyond this afternoon.

    The thorn is that firm offer’s Hiring Manager is a former supervisor who has been a great champion for me since we worked together. For years they’ve been telling me they want to bring me into their current organization and are finally in a position to do it, with a job specifically tailored to my skills and experience. I’m struggling with what to say to them when I conditionally accept the firm offer.

    First I’m planning to give a verbal acceptance to HM tonight. Should I ask for an amended written offer with a sensible start date based on successfully completing the screening stuff? I’ve never resigned from a job before so I don’t know how to negotiate this kind of timeline, but I’m definitely not leaving a paycheck while there’s a possibility something could go wrong. (I actually currently work for a sibling organization to the one that will likely do the background check portion and let’s just say, based on my knowledge of the org, there’s every possibility something will go wrong even though there are no actual issues in my background.)

    Second I’m really struggling with the advice friends and family have given that I shouldn’t say anything about the dream position when I accept. That’s not sitting right because if the dream position offers, I would absolutely accept it regardless of where we are with the firm offer. Hiring Manager is a great person and I don’t want to put them in a bad situation, but I also don’t want to bring up something that isn’t guaranteed to happen which might sour our relationship going forward. Help?

    1. Colette*

      Don’t accept if you’re going to quit for the dream position. That will ruin your relationship with your former supervisor and pretty much anyone else who hears what happens. Either turn it down, or withdraw from the hiring process for the “dream” position.

      1. BRR*

        I agree with this. This question is pretty common on here and it sucks to have to give this answer but timing on job offers doesn’t always work out. I wish I could tell you differently.

    2. CM*

      I agree with your friends and family. I’d accept and not say anything. Deal with the fallout later. Stall on your start date, and IF you get the dream job, then be extremely apologetic when you quit. Accept that the dream job will require you to potentially burn a bridge. If burning that bridge is unacceptable, then you either need to decline this offer or withdraw from dream job hiring.

  126. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m so frustrated in our search for an entry level production worker. It’s always been hard to find a fit but with this economy we’re getting even more obscure hmmm… eccentric applicants.

    We tried someone out who was in a recovery program. Didn’t work out. Then we keep getting mostly similar applicants.

    It’s just the grind of entry level production and I’m feeling drained more than ever.

    We offered an interview to a guy who hasn’t worked in a year. He accepted. Then emailed late night the day before to reschedule. I accepted it, things happen. No response. I walk in today to an email saying no-go on that reschedule after all and can we do it Monday instead. I’m probably callous AF at this point but I’ll call in a temp in a pinch before I’ll reschedule last minute twice.

    The thing is production line work interviews are like retail or service interviews, they’re given out relatively quickly and there’s flags thrown if you’re not even able to show reliability by showing up on time for a interview.

    One guy showed up in a total state of unwashed state. Sadly I’m probably not off base by thinking he’s possibly between housing so I’m not going to use that against him but it was a very surreal experience. I say that as someone who used to hire in a podunk town with a meth problem and have seen and heard insane things during the hiring process.

    This is just to vent about my own exhaustion. It’s hard to be in charge of hiring for cruddy but necessary jobs. We even have good benefits so it’s a dream job for the right person to build a manufacturing career around but you’ve got to fish for so long to have the right person nibble at your line.

    I’ve learned a hard lesson over hiring and just giving everyone a shot. It’s been absurdly chaotic and messy. Also not hiring someone is 900000x easier than firing someone and cleaning up afterwards. Waaaah cry cry cry. Thank God we have low turnover, this is an added position.

    1. Utoh!*

      Is there anything that can be changed about this position to attract a more *refined* candidate, especially if it’s potentially a stepping stone to a career in manufacturing? How about recruiting from high schools/colleges?
      Alternatively, is there a way to use automation for this work as opposed to a human?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Oh believe me, I have made sure that in the listings it includes all our benefits. It’s a great job to get into manufacturing but only if that person isn’t employed by the big guys that are nearby of course.

        Full benefits [good benefits too] and tuition assistance program. Just the starting wages are low and therefore they don’t even really look at the listing is what I get the impression :(

        College recruitment is sadly a joke. We even went to the technical schools in the area and not a single person was sent to us, it of course dims my already dimmed feelings on career centers at said schools.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      You mentioned a “recovery program”….if background isn’t an issue, have you considered trying to forge a relationship with a probation/parole officer or two and ask them to mention the position to their “good parolees?” A friend that is a parole officer has told me that she has quite a few good guys that can’t find jobs due to their record (non-violent offenders…usually theft related) and trying to help them find decent employment is an uphill battle because employers won’t take a chance on them due to their past.

      Also, if this position is only slightly above minimum wage, like in the $8 to $10 an hour range, I think you may be screwed. The economy is good enough right now, that you aren’t going to find too many quality candidates willing to work for such low wages unless no one else is willing to hire them. Best of luck!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s minimum wage but I just gasped forgetting how low it is everywhere else. We’re in $15 & $16 (500 employees plus) territory.

        But most don’t offer full coverage insurance and retirement.

        This is a homeless recovery setup. I wish they would move towards the parolees you speak of. Years ago we got great guys from work release. Sadly my hands are tied on that one but it is still something I do throw around every little while!

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          Wow! Yeah…I’m in the south, Texas to be precise. Our statewide minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. I think working with homeless recovery candidates would be a challenge for sure. If your company is interested in hiring folks who will stay long term, I personally think parolees are a better option. They will show up every day because they have more on the line (in my opinion). I don’t know that it has to be one or the other. Maybe your company would be open to interviewing candidates of both types? You have my sympathies. Hiring for retail wasn’t as bad as what you’re facing, but also not much better.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Oh my goodness. Texas always has me spinning out with that kind of stark difference between you’re laws or lack there of compared to the deep blue PNW. (Except Eastern Washington is still talking about splitting off lol They’re basically Idaho anyways of course)

            We also have state wide mandated sick leave that San Antonio was denied when they tried making it happen :(

        2. rear mech*

          How low are your wages relative to the cost of housing in your area? Insurance and retirement are great, but if the pay won’t cover 3x rent on a small, non-bug-infested place in a not-actively-scary area, a huge % of people are just going to gloss over it. If the wages are too low, you need to do what wal-mart does and rely on welfare, charity, or family to make up the difference, target a GED program for kids who might still be living at home, halfway house or domestic violence shelters for people whose rent is being paid by a program. Does the insurance cover a worker’s spouse and kids for a reasonable cost? If so that could be the first line of the job ad – PAY $0 FOR GREAT INSURANCE FOR YOURSELF, ONLY $100/MONTH FOR THE WHOLE FAMILY, [NAME-BRAND INSURER], LOWER COPAYS AND MORE DOCTORS THAN OBAMACARE, ETC ETC ETC. That might get some people whose spouse is making ok money but doesn’t have insurance, or who has lower housing expenses but high medical expenses for self or family. I can say for myself, as a lower income woman, given equally low paid jobs in service industry, retail, or manufacturing, I would lean towards service or retail out of fear of one of those 99% male environments where I’d stick out like a sore thumb and be a harassment target, or potentially stuck in isolated section of a warehouse with a sketchy dude and no passers by. If there’s a decent % of women on your production staff, maybe include one of the group pictures on the craigslist post..

    3. LGC*

      I hear you. When I was supervising at my first office, I was in charge of training new employees/clients. (Work program, so yeah. It sounds similar to your job in that it’s entry level production.)

      One service program in my area sent a string of people who were…just not ready to sit and type in an office for four hours a day. The one I remember was the guy who got up every 15 minutes to get water while we were training him.

      Wishing you the best of luck in your search! As frustrating as it can be, if you get a good fit they often tend to stay!

  127. Anonymous For This Post*

    Dear Alison and Commentariat,

    Thank you for the advice and help. My first ever salary negotiation was a success when I was brought on full-time in a new-to-me industry after a long stretch as a temp. I will be receiving a significantly higher salary than the original offer. Your methods of framing experience and scripts were invaluable in this process. I owe you all a big pay-forward.

    Cheers!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yesssss I’m overjoyed when temps are finally given a perm position and often that screws them over for salary but you beat the system!! Woo! Congrats!

  128. Lynne879*

    After aggressively job searching since August, I finally got a job interview for an entry-level position after doing a complete rehaul of my resume & cover letter, and… I did terribly. I wrote down 12 questions that I was sure I would be asked (Where do you see yourself 5 years from now, Tell me about yourself, Give an example of when you had a conflict with a coworker, etc) and I was asked maybe 2 questions I was prepared to answer. The other ones asked specifics about the industry (which I’m new to) & other questions I didn’t even think of.

    How am I suppose to prepare & practice for interviews if I have no idea what the questions will be?

    1. Kathenus*

      I know that this can be frustrating, but as a hiring manager I just want you to give honest answers to the questions. So if you are asked a specific on the industry (which is pretty standard), be forthright about what experience/knowledge you do and don’t have about that specific aspect. If asked a question you didn’t expect, take a moment to consider and just answer honestly. I’m not looking for perfect, practiced responses. The interview is a dialogue to see if the person/job/organization are a fit for each other. I know it’s hard when you’re looking for a job, especially when you’ve been looking a long time or it’s a job that you really want, but being yourself and giving honest answers to the questions is your best bet. I’m a pretty good BS’er, and in my younger days made the mistake of talking my way into a job that wasn’t a good fit, needless to say it was a good life lesson that getting the job shouldn’t have been my goal, succeeding and being happy in it should have been. Good luck.

      1. Lynne879*

        Thank you for your reply, it does make me feel better.

        I’ve been trying to find the balance of “being myself” and “being professional” in job interviews, but I guess it’s hard to find it unless you really connected with the interviewer. (I do wish I was a good BS’er though. I tend to freeze up & stutter when I don’t know the answer to a question).

    2. Anonyme*

      I am in nursing and there are often questions I can’t answer well for interviews since area of practice are so different. However they want to know also how we would troubleshoot an issue. For example, if I haven’t done a procedure they want familiarity with I would 1) read the policy, 2) read the appropriate section in our reference textbook, 3) speak with our clinical educator about practice, 4) ask senior coworkers to let me know if they have a patient requiring this so I can watch or do it alongside them.

    3. KayEss*

      I hate to say it, but a lot of it is just real-life practice. My first couple interviews were awful, but by the time I started my third-ever job search (after being laid off twice in three years) doing them started to feel pretty routine. I’m a socially anxious person by nature, but do it enough times and you get comfortable-ish, at least.

      One trick I use is when they ask a question and my mind just goes blank is to say “wow, that’s a great question!” It buys me a second or two of time and centers me so I don’t panic (and then panic more about whether I look like I’m panicking), plus I (hopefully) look like I’m thoughtfully considering my answer instead of being obviously deer-in-the-headlights. Also it’s a bit of low-key flattery to the interviewer, as long as you don’t sound super contrived about it. Obviously this doesn’t work on super easy questions (summarize your last few positions for us, etc.) but I think it helped me not become as flustered on harder ones.

  130. Letting go of frustrations*

    Has anyone successfully cultivated patience when it comes to issues of deep personal importance in the workplace?

    I know the best course of action here is for me to communicate my position, and then let it go. Yet I want to rage-quit every time this comes up, and it does keep coming up. I have a LONG WAY to go toward regulating my emotions and impulses here since I get so invested and frustrated.

    1. Letting go of frustrations*

      Context:

      My biggest issue at work is the same equity problems that have always plagued our industry and so many others.

      Where I’m banging my head against the wall isn’t that these problems exist, it’s that it’s a “progressive” field and office that are actively talking about the issues, and leadership don’t think they have anything left to learn and using the fact that it’s complicated and hard as a cop out.

      There’s a defensiveness, digging in, and shutting down when I try to steer them toward turning these ideas into actionable next steps.

      As an example, I did successfully lobby for a change in our service to be more inclusive, but then received a stern talking-to because in an internal conversation I implied that some of my coworkers didn’t have full buy-in. (Because they didn’t have full buy-in.)

      Leadership has also used the phrase “well it depends on how you define diversity” as a way to shut down conversation.

      1. Happy To Report*

        Can you advocate to have an outsider come in to talk about equity? One that you (or a committee) choose? It can be easier to listen to an outsider be critical. At the very least, you can’t chastise them.

        1. Letting go of frustrations*

          I think that would be a great idea, but wouldn’t be taken seriously if i proposed it. There’s a coworker (who agrees with me but is less forceful about it) I might be able to suggest that to…

    2. blackcat*

      Ultimately, when I found myself in a similar position, it was a sign to me that I needed to move on. It was more charged for me (I was a teacher, didn’t like the way the school admin handled diversity stuff) b/c it involved kids. I needed to be in an environment with others who were willing to constantly work to improve and be self-reflective.

      1. Letting go of frustrations*

        Oh, I hope you landed in a better place.

        I’ve been giving the “moving on” option a LOT of thought and I really want to try working on my patience first. The good things and potential of this work environment are too many to throw away lightly. For one thing, I would be a top candidate to take over when our CEO retires (it’s a small organization.)

        1. Public Health Nerd*

          It’s sad when an otherwise great org that you want to stay with reveals itself to be less than awesome. Maybe give yourself permission to take some time to really grieve the loss, to be sad and to express it to a friend outside work. Trying to stuff down your feelings will make it worse.

          1. valentine*

            Don’t bank on a future fantasy. These people are below 101 level. Would they want you to take over or do they see you as a heart-on-sleeve SJW/PC police who makes them feel bad when they “tried”? Do they think a single person equals diversity? I think they would only be spurred to real progress by an outside influence.

            Maybe you want to be the outside influence? Like a diversity trainer/coach/planner? What orgs are doing this? Could you employ your vision there? Where would you be truly happy and not pulling teeth?

            If you’re not white, take extra care with your health, because this is an abusive environment that could shorten your life.

            1. Letting go of frustrations*

              Circling back to say how much I appreciate these responses. It’s some serious food for thought when I ask “how can I change my reaction to this?” and the answers are “nope, leave.”

              I really appreciate your bucket of cold water in particular, valentine. I am white, and have other privileges in spades (though marginalized along a couple of intersections that aren’t as urgently in play here.) As of now, my employer adores me and wants to retain me in spite of(?) my buzzkill PC police tendencies–they’ve explicitly mentioned grooming me for succession planning–but it’s true that could fade over the years before our CEO retires.

              I guess I just don’t trust any other workplaces in my area to actually be any better. I know where the bodies are buried in too many other employers and the local social justice organizations I’m familiar with are notoriously poor work environments.

              Anyway, lots to reflect on. Thanks, all.

  131. ReadyToGo*

    I finally have a start date for my new job and gave my notice this week. I waited a long time for this and thought I would be happy/excited/cartwheeling down the halls…but I’m not. I’m sad to leave a job that could have been great if my manager wasn’t so terrible. I’m angry at her boss for not doing anything about her behavior and (lack of) management skills, despite many complaints from me and other coworkers on my behalf and theirs. I’m nervous that I’m going to take these bad coping mechanisms to NewJob. I’m frustrated about the way I was treated and that it feels like no one did anything.

    I know I’m taking this too personally…but I am. And I don’t know how to shake the feeling(s).

    (For more context, my first post: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/12/open-thread-december-14-15-2018.html#comment-2267742)

    1. Dust Bunny*

      All bad jobs could be great if XYZ. But they can’t be great with bad managers. Those aren’t two separate things. And the fact that there are layers of bad management means that there is that much more distance between here and that job being great. Jobs are what they are, not what they could be, unless and until somebody is willing to do something about the problems, which isn’t happening here.

      I wouldn’t worry too much yet. If your new job is different and not awful, you won’t need those mechanisms, anyway, and unlearning them won’t be a big deal.

    3. Electric Sheep*

      Sounds to me that you might be grieving the missed opportunities – after all, when you leave your job, any potential the job had is definitely gone. So you are sad for unrealized expectations and feel like things are left undone. And also nervousness about the change, since you don’t know what new job will be like. Maybe make space to explicitly acknowledge your feelings – journal, or light some candles or something, whatever works for you – and rather than try not to feel those feelings, give them the space to tell you where you’re at. Perhaps you just need to get through them and then you can move on.

      (I’m sorry if this is a bit vague and wanky sounding, I don’t really have the best vocab the explain what I mean. But sometimes I think we think we shouldn’t have emotions but when you dig into them you can understand them more and get more info that helps you move on to something else.)

  132. Tired So Tired*

    What can you do if your boss and grandboss are too busy to be effective?
    I am one of four team leads. Our boss has been on the job for two years and claims to be “too busy” or “too new” to manage effectively. Grandboss is legitimately too busy but also seems like they are uninterested. Team Four Lead tried to ask Grandboss for help with Boss and basically got her hand slapped, so they quit. Boss became interim Team Four Lead and has been for over a year, during which we have had little to no direction and it has been CHAOS.
    The answer seems pretty obvious to the remaining team leads: if the same tasks cycle through each year, we need to introduce new/revised policies during Q1, discuss and revise during Q2, finalize and approve during Q3, and train staff during Q4. Anything introduced during Qs2-4 can be fast-tracked. Since boss has had ONLY ONE team meeting in two years (which accomplished nothing), can we start having meetings behind her back? Can we demand more meetings then go back to Grandboss if they don’t happen? We keep talking about staging a revolt.

    1. CastIrony*

      Your co-worker got their hands slapped over asking for help? I think it’s time to stand as a group and say that you all need help! Maybe go above Grandboss!

    2. TechWorker*

      Yea this sounds ridiculous. Can you have meetings without them? Yes definitely. Make decisions and send them to level up with ‘we’re doing x, let us know by y date if you have any problems with that’. Is it good long term to be without direction from above – obviously not :(. If this doesn’t change I would be job-hunting.

      1. Tired So Tired*

        thank you both. yes, two out of three of us are looking for other work. in the meantime we are going to start having meetings without the boss.

  133. Stephanie*

    Hi everyone! So I mentioned looking into a part-time MBA program via work. I applied and got into a local Top 10 program that has a weekend program. Work will cover it 100%. I’ll be starting the program in May.

    3. Jane*

      Congratulations! I’m doing a part-time MPA program right now, and I’m super excited to be back in school and learning more. You’re going to do great things!

  134. Anonforthis*

    I got an interview for next week that is FOUR HOURS long. Is this normal ???? I would request half a day PTO, but our policy is to request at least 2 weeks in advance. It’s a very long doctors appt though.

    It’s for a nonprofit, and the other time I’ve had an interview for almost as long as this was also for a nonprofit. Is this a nonprofit thing???

    1. CM*

      Very normal, assuming you’re meeting with multiple people and you’ve already had an initial phone screen.

    3. DCR*

      In my experience, places that only do one in person interview before making a decision have long interviews. Places that do multiple in person interviews, have shorter interviews. So, maybe this is a fine that it will be a short process.

  135. Phideaux*

    I am several steps into the interviewing process for a job that is a step up for me, and just the right job for a lot of reasons. I have interviewed with some top people at the company and so far they seem to really like me. The job is less in pay and benefits but it was mentioned a few times they they would be willing to match in order for me to consider the job.
    The bad news is, earlier this week I was laid off from my current job along with about 20 others due to budget cuts. One of the reasons I was looking for a new job was that I was in a position to see the signs, but the company beat me to it. My question is, in my next interview, scheduled next week, should I mention this right up front or wait for it to come up in the conversation? The financial situation at the former company was thoroughly discussed in the interviews, so it probably wouldn’t be a huge surprise to them, but I also feel that having a current job that paid more was a bit of a bargaining chip. I’d hate for them to go back to their original starting wage. I certainly won’t lie, but would it seem less than honest if I didn’t bring it up first, full disclosure?

    2. foolofgrace*

      I wouldn’t volunteer it, but if it comes out and they are wanting to start you at the lower salary, is that better or worse than being out of work?

  136. Meredith Brooks*

    I’m FRUSTRATED. I’m managing a new guy. He does some things well. He does other things not well. I asked him to write something. Something that is a pretty basic part of our job. It wasn’t great. Now, I realize writing is subjective and I get there are multiple ways something could be done, but sometimes there is a basic structure that should be considered.

    I gave him feedback. But, I’m finding he either ignored some of what I said, misunderstood it or didn’t understand it. Interestingly the parts he misunderstood were pretty explicit. And what he didn’t understand he didn’t ask for clarification on until it went through multiple rounds of editing. And to be honest, this is a trend with him, where he just assumes things or pretends he knows something and then it takes a more in-depth conversation to find out where the disconnect was, which only creates more confusion.

    I do not like being a manager.

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I also work in a position where I’ve had to provide feedback on some very subjective writing of others. Is there any way to provide him with a template of some sort? Like…his writing should address the following components
      – Who
      – What
      -When
      -Where
      – Why
      – How
      – Process to complete x task
      – Steps required to complete the process of x task
      – Resources to visit for help/clarification before submitting your writing

      Also, could you give him some examples of “good” writing or similar writing to what he’s being asked to complete that may have been done by someone else in the past?

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        Oh, if it were only that. I work in publicity, so he should know the Ws and H. There are also examples of previous materials throughout our shared server (which I shared with him). I also spoke to him before he started writing it and gave him simple tips about how these things should be structured. There’s a lot to consider when writing such things, so I get being overwhelmed. But he’s not admitting that. He’s just not absorbing all the fundamentals or doesn’t understand some of the suggestions and the writing tends to spin out and it makes the release complicated, which reporters do not tolerate well.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          Ahhhh…I understand. All you can really do is give him clear, concise feedback about why his writing isn’t passing muster and tell him what to do to improve and then take action accordingly. I also get frustrated when you know someone is struggling but they’re too proud/stubborn/oblivious to admit it and ask for help or clarification on the issues they’re struggling with. I’ve even had people tell me that they totally understand that 1+1=2 after they just told me that 1+1=5. Infuriating at times for sure.

            1. valentine*

              Deborah Tanner wrote that, in sexist US culture, white boys are socialized to consider all interactions competitions. So white men don’t stop to ask for directions because they will be -1 with the gas station clerk, while not admitting ignorance is neutral.

              Tell him not admitting ignorance hurts him, that you need to know, sooner, what he isn’t getting, that you need him to get down to x editing rounds by y month. I hope you’re considering replacing him and having candidates provide a release as a writing sample.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I feel for you so much! I only like being a manager when I have a solid core staff, I don’t mind questions and guiding others but man do I loath dealing with work performance issues like you’re dealing with. Does he not take notes on what you’re telling him? My biggest peeve eeeeeeeeeever is not taking notes and then make errors.

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        The thing is he takes COPIOUS notes… so many notes that I really do wonder whether their useful, because he doesn’t seem to be able to distill the main points effectively and they don’t lead him to asking questions during or after we’ve had a discussion. Even when I give him notes he appears to have trouble grasping what I’m saying. It’s actually led me to wonder whether I’m not being clear, except he says he understands (because I point blank ask — does this make sense?)… He says he does, but then based on what he produces, he obviously doesn’t.

        1. HadANameOnce*

          Late, but if you see this–instead of asking “does this make sense?”, can you ask him to explain back to you? Paraphrasing, if possible, so he doesn’t just read back what he’s written? Or can you get him to check in more often (send you outlines at various stages maybe?) It might take time you don’t have, and you might unfortunately have to face that this is not the right role for him, but it might help him reorient how he approaches things.

          Whether you do this more intensive training thing or not, though, you need a bigger picture conversation, as Former Retail Manager said, about his weaknesses, what improvements are needed, and what the consequences will be if he doesn’t get up to speed.

          Also, even if it is in part that your delivery isn’t working for him, it’s on him to tell you that.

  137. Just Venting*

    I just want to find a better one than what I have. Sometimes I feel like shouting, get me outta here!!! I feel they want me out too.. They were never good mentors, they only cared for ones who went to same school as them, and look down on others.
    Plus this kid who thinks he knows everything, and he’s high and mighty- go ahead, take all the work and don’t share, tell them you can do it all. While I go sit here doing nonsense coz u got it all covered.
    I hate it here. Someone please have mercy give me a chance to prove I can do well in this field.

  138. TheRedCoat*

    At the end of last year, I had an annual review with my boss, where she said the general good things. As part of her goals for this year, she wanted us to all set personal development goals. I’ve been trying to get the same promotion for about a year and a half now, every time being told ‘Well, we won’t promote you unless you’re already doing the job’. I brought this up in my personal development meeting, and she stated she’d send me the job description for the position I want.

    I’m not just already doing that job. I am going above and beyond that job, and have been since at least the beginning of the year. So much so that I was unable to indicate anything on the job description as a thing I needed to learn for my ‘goals’. When I had this conversation with my boss, she acknowledged the fact that my work hasn’t really been watched all that closely, and unless they heard something bad they just kinda let me do my thing. Because I’m a go getter and fast learner, my ‘thing’ power crept.

    The promotion would have been a serious bump in my pay. I say would have, because we only do promotions annually, so I am stuck where I am for yet another year, continuing to do good work well above my pay grade. How do I not lose hope? We’re in a saturated market, so while I am keeping an eye out for opportunities, anything paying a decent amount is usually snapped up by someone with significantly more expertise than me on paper, because I’m still listed as a tech instead of a level 1 (or even 2!) specialist.

    2. Happy To Report*

      How do you think your boss would respond if you (calmly, politely) expressed frustration about the situation? Something like “I really appreciate you giving me the job description for Position X, and generally, your support for pursuing my goals. I did want to talk to you about something that’s making me a little frustrated. The feedback that I’d been getting was that I couldn’t apply for the position until I was already doing the job, but reviewing the job description, I certainly feel that I am more than doing what the role outlines. That’s very exciting and with that knowledge I look forward to applying for the position. But knowing how things work here, I can’t help but feel a little frustrated that I won’t be able to apply for the position until [date], when it looks like I’ve been eligible since the beginning of 2018.”

      And then maybe there’s something you don’t know about, or a way you could be offered a raise, or she’ll put in a good word for you if there comes a need to fill that position mid-year or something like that.

      1. TheRedCoat*

        Oh, we have a great report! And I did. And her hands are tied by our corporate overlords. She cannot give me a raise or promotion until the next annual review. My only hope is that someone above me quits/retires, and that seems… unlikely. Also, as they’ve expanded the WFH options, they now allow people to telecommute. So even people moving doesn’t mean they need to leave the job.

        1. Happy To Report*

          Agh, I’m sorry, that really sucks. I can absolutely see your frustration. I had a somewhat similar experience in undergrad where a temp advisor told me I couldn’t sign up for a class I needed to graduate because I was technically a few credits short, but then when I had enough credits, they didn’t offer the class. But fortunately I had an advocate in the department who overrode the requirement and gave me something else to qualify. It’s weird to think of a corporation being more rigid and bureaucratic than my state school!

          1. TheRedCoat*

            Yep! Because we are owned by an offshoot division that is owned by an umbrella company that is owned by another company in a different country.

  139. D.W.*

    Just want to say thank you for all who provided verbiage on how to get my co-worker to stop calling me mom. She was a bit taken aback, but she has since stopped. Thank goodness.

  140. DoctorateStrange*

    Well, it’s finally happened. I have had my first run-in with office politics since a person I despise ended up being nominated for Employee of the Month. Let’s call him Hux. Hux is a cataloger for the library and he works with a chip on his shoulder. He gets mad when we bring mending or weeding items to him, despite the fact that that is his job. He acts put-open and will get into a snit with you if you dare follow your responsibilities. One time he got mad at my friend, Rose when she brought him a weeding cart on the orders of her boss–the next morning when he was dropping off mail at each department, he outright ignored her, giving the mail to the coworker next to her instead of her, despite being physically closer to him.

    It doesn’t help that he got hired over my more-qualified friend, Finn. Finn and Hux used to both be part-time shelvers and both had applied for the full-time position. Hux got it over Finn, despite Finn being a harder worker and all-around easygoing person. Now, this was before I got hired, but Finn, along with other people, has told me that Hux was a lot friendlier when he was a part-timer but as soon as he made full-time, he became arrogant.

    Finn has felt unappreciated at work (always applying for full-time, a less-qualified candidate getting it before her*) and eventually left the library after six years to go into nursing school. Happy ending is that she has really found a place for herself in the nursing world.

    There is a committee that actually runs Employee of the Month. And, well, a woman in that committee, Phasma, hates me. Hux is also a member of the committee, the most recent member and has become good friends with Phasma. My friend, Rose and I have figured what happened is that Phasma convinced the other members to nominate Hux because he is the most recent member of the group and convinced them that it was a way to make him feel welcomed.

    The committee has gotten so cliquey and I have noticed that only certain people ever get nominated and it feels they get nominated for who they’re friends with as opposed to the actual work they. It’s tough feeling like I am unappreciated and I think that as soon as I get my MLS, I will be looking around elsewhere.

    *Yes, I am using the name Finn for my female friend. I think the real Finn would be A-okay with that.

    1. KayEss*

      I don’t have any advice but I now know how all the GoT fans must feel when people use “Cersei,” “Sansa,” etc. as names in their posts… I would absolutely read this Star Wars AU fanfic.

  141. Happy To Report*

    I had a second (and presumably final) interview last Friday. They had hoped to get back to me early this week, but with difficulty contacting my references and weather, now they won’t be able to give me an update until next Tuesday at the earliest because somebody is out of the office.

    But all signs point to them really wanting to hire me! I know my references were great (they all contacted me to let me know how the reference calls went, and two of the comments were “Hiring Manager begged me not to hire you away” and “I told her the only bad thing was that it wasn’t us hiring you back”), the conversations I’m having with them are friendly, and every time she contacts me about a delay she says something like “I just want you to know so you don’t feel discouraged that it’s taking so long.”

    I’m antsy to be able to give notice at my current job. There’s a set start date for this position that’s 5 weeks away, so they’ll get plenty of lead time, but my boss *just* finished hiring for my coworker who left end of January. I also found out that someone else important to our work is leaving at the beginning of next month. I want to be able to give notice ASAP so that they have a chance of filling my role before I leave, and me on boarding the new person.

    Also… I’m nervous about salary! The benefits at this place are great, so I don’t have concerns there, and the lowest rung on the salary scale is still more than I make now. But I think I’m a stronger candidate than just getting the lowest salary. I have no idea what they might offer to me but in talking to other people in the field, they think I should fall in the upper half of the salary scale. I’m just nervous because they know what I’m currently making, and the upper half is a significant bump. I think I’m prepared to negotiate, but it will only be my second time. I also don’t want them to feel like I’m nickel and dime-ing them, because overall I’m really excited about the position and the team I’ll be working with. But money can be hard to come by in this field and I want to stay in this position a long time, so I don’t want to leave anything on the table.

  142. kitryan*

    I’m on day 2 of my teammate being out for a personal emergency and also day 2 of people submitting items to our team, 2/3 of which are submitted incorrectly (so multiple follow ups/resubmissions needed) or require hours of work (and as always everything’s urgent). My supervisor has been on vacation all week. Also, the person sitting next to me is apparently sick and I have to visit my parents this weekend to help them with errands and my mom is in remission (though luckily not having chemo or radiation) and my dad is having surgery next week.
    Not a great day today.

      1. kitryan*

        Thanks. I’m just stressing and turns out that all of the upper level folks (that aren’t already on vacation) are in a no-phones meeting all day, so I’m not getting any answers to my questions so I can’t move forward on most of the things…but the tiny silver lining is that no one’s asking where their project is at either.
        I anticipate a flood of emails at around 4:30.

  143. Kali*

    I’m a student and a student ambassador, so I help to run the open days every Wednesday. I left my lecture early because I couldn’t physically see half of the slides, and then spent the first hour of my shift throwing up. My migraines respond to ibuprofen, so I was hoping it would quickly pass once the medicine got into my system, but it didn’t and I ended up going home. I feel bad both for not sticking it out (because I did feel A LOT better when I got home, and because previous jobs have had overly strict sickness policies and would rather I stayed) and for not just going home straight away (because migraines are predictably sucky, and the uni are very reasonable employers in that regard). I also feel bad for walking out of a lecture two minutes after the professor started talking, but we’ve spoken before and I think I’ve got enough good-student credit built up that she assumes it was an illness or emergency.

    1. valentine*

      The fact you felt so much better at home means going home worked, not that you erred in your self-assessment.

  144. Best cat in the world*

    Does anyone else have jobs with superstitions that people tend to stick to?
    I’m in EMS and these are a few that I can think of in my field.
    It makes me laugh that we are mostly rational people in my job but someone says the ‘q’ word and you’re waiting for it all to hit the fan!
    Full moons are a bit wild.
    Someone tells you ‘I’m going to die’ then you’d better believe them and be prepared.
    And we regularly rely on our gut, or at least a lot of us do. If my gut’s telling me there’s something not right, I listen to it, I’ve had it pay off enough times to not do so.

    1. Kali*

      I’ve just been rereading The Gift of Fear, so following your gut sounds like a solid move to me right now!

    2. DataGirl*

      I have a friend who is a psych nurse. She says the full moon is completely crazy (no pun intended).

      I am very superstitious as a person which can bleed in to work life. Never say things like ‘the weather looks good’, or ‘at least there’s no traffic’, or variations on the ‘q’ word, you’re guaranteed to f’ it up.

    3. anon24*

      Fellow EMS. One day I was at station and my husband asked how work was going. He asked how many calls I’d had and I said none yet. He texts back “i hope the rest of your day stays quiet”.

      Within 3 minutes I was dispatched and had 6 calls back to back. I asked him why he would do that to me.

      Another EMS superstition I can think of: I won’t eat hot food when available with 911 unless I have it in a portable container where I can keep it hot or I can reheat it and still have it taste good.

      But oh yeah definitely follow your gut. We deal with sketchy situations and really sick people and those gut feelings will keep you alive and keep your patient safe.

      1. Teach*

        So do teachers! Never speak of a run of good behavior. I worked on a team that quit doing Student of the Month b/c we had a full school year with one of the recognees being suspended within the month. There are a lot of superstitions about snow days – some goodhumored, like sleeping with your PJs on backwards.

    5. curly sue*

      I work with theatre people, so yes, there are a lot of superstitions! Some of the more memorable include working wardrobe for a show where two actors shared a dressing room — one believed firmly that placing shoes anywhere except on the floor was extremely bad luck, and the other insisted that his shoes be placed on his dressing table, because shoes on the floor were extremely bad luck.

      (I ended up giving up, following the individual requests, and letting them duke it out between themselves.)

      We staged the Scottish Play one year and did actually have a run-in with the curse. There were a lot of minor things that went wrong, but the biggest one was during the tech-dress when the smoke machine got stuck on during the witches’ entrance and fogged out the entire theatre. We spent about half an hour with the loading bay doors open waiting for the air to clear enough that you could actually see more than a few inches in front of you.

    6. ..Kat..*

      As a nurse, if a patient tells me that they are ‘going to die,’ I take it seriously. The patient is usually correct in this.

    7. Dr. Anonymous*

      Medicine is totally like this. Woe unto you if you use the “q” word on an OB hospital unit. I do remember on a few crazy nights in the hospital, looking up the phases of the moon to report that it was NOT FULL. Just my little skirmish in the war on confirmation bias.

  146. grin and bear it*

    TL;DR How do you keep yourself sane in a time with high burnout potential in an org that is not ideal?

    My organization is gasping its way to a merger or death barring a major intervention and I hate 2/3 of the people who work here. I have spent the last six months looking for new roles but I’m in an odd spot where I have too much experience for all the roles at my previous level to hire me on (think 6 months over the max) but not quite enough to get hired at a level up at a good place or a good salary.
    I report straight to the CEO and he likes me and values my input -plus he really wants me to do well and is giving me the opportunities to get the skills I need to get hired at the next level.
    This morning I decided to give it another 6 months here and just keep an eye on job listings – but ramp up my search for real at that mark. Problem is – there’s high potential for burnout on the daily items and I don’t care if the org fails. Maybe I lack passion but that’s the way it is.
    What have you all done to keep sane and to keep things balanced during a job you don’t like where you are overworked? I have a couple trips planned but on a day to day basis I’m less certain. I’ve been treading water on things which isn’t helping.

  147. KeepIt*

    I just need to vent! I’m making donor/fundraising cold calls today (which…killme) but the worst is when you get a person that gets EXTREMELY worked up and yell that you’ve interrupted them in a meeting. Why did you answer the call then??? If you didn’t know my number then why interrupt a meeting to answer a call? And then act extra rude to me when you do? It’s 2019 surely we all know how to send a call to voicemail. ughhhh neither of us want to be doing this just say, “I’m sorry, I am busy please call later” and let’s move on with the rest of our crummy existence

    1. fposte*

      It’s no fun to be yelled it, but I don’t think you can condemn people for answering their phones. Lots of people have kids or elderly relatives that means calls from unknown numbers can be important.

      1. Drago Cucina*

        Agreed. Both my adult sons work in security fields where if they were hurt the call wouldn’t come from them. I also have a Board member who will call from numbers that aren’t associated with him. If I’m in a meeting I take his call.

        I wouldn’t yell, but I did lodge a complaint with a company. I would use the online appointment system and they insisted on calling me to confirm. I understand the need to confirm. A text–fine. An email–fine. Don’t call and insist on a long conversation. The system used a service so the number wasn’t recognizable as the business.

      2. calonkat*

        I’m one of those people, and my cell phone # used to be our landline #, so I get ALL the telemarketers. But there’s no point in yelling at them, especially if they aren’t scammers and are just cold calling. Saying “no” and handing up is fine, or “no thank you”, or just hanging up! Taking the extra time and effort to YELL at someone else is what is being complained about here, and I think it’s a valid thing to need to vent about :)

    2. Ringster*

      I totally get where you’re coming from. Technology makes it so easy to screen calls- I never answer phone numbers that aren’t saved in my phone. And, even if you’re in a situation where you’re answering unknown numbers (like waiting to hear back from a job), I feel like you’re accepting the fact that for a while, you’re going to be answering calls that you don’t want. Just hang up and move on!

      1. KeepIt*

        I wish we could just abolish the phone :( it’s all of the un-comfortableness of email/texting (not being able to see body language/interpret tone) and face to face meeting (awkwardness!) with absolutely none of the benefits. Not to mention my co-workers overhearing me being yelled at over and over!

    3. AnotherAlison*

      What is your success rate? I’m curious because I’m someone who is generally pretty annoyed to receive these calls. I ended up blocking my alma mater, even though I do send them money regularly. The sheriff’s department ones are the most annoying because they spend way too long trying to make a cutesy intro. I won’t yell at anyone, but the callers rarely give pause for me to politely say no thanks. I’ll usually interrupt with a “no thanks” and hang up. I can’t think of any circumstances where I’d decide, yes, now is the time I want to go dig through my wallet and make a donation while [grocery shopping, working, working out, doing laundry, relaxing].

      As Fposte noted, I have older kids so I need to check to make sure it isn’t an emergency. I also get contacted on my personal phone for business.

      I did telemarketing while in college in the 90s, so I feel your pain, and I know it’s not your idea to do this, but there are so many other ways I rather donate. [Also – I do not want to donate on my way in or out of Wal-Mart, either!]

      1. KeepIt*

        oh believe me I’d rather people just hang up! I’m getting full on screamed at, must be the weather or the moon or something. I love when people just send my call to voicemail

      2. nonegiven*

        Local news just did a story on the police/FOP/sheriff/fire department calls to donate to help your local whatever. The local departments do not make those calls and they don’t hire telemarketers to make the calls. The calls are from lobbying organizations and they are raising money to lobby for legislation. They very carefully word their spiels to mislead you.

        If you want to donate to your local departments, call them directly.

        To cut back on cold calls in the US, register your numbers at https://www.donotcall.gov
        It won’t help with calls for political, survey, charity purposes, or any company you have done business with in the last 18 months. Legitimate business will follow the law when you ask to be put on their company’s Do Not Call list.
        You can be sure that any other cold calls are a scam.

    4. user679*

      Don’t cold call people. This practice should be banned, it’s unethical.

      My elderly parents used to be pestered by cold callers a lot. No, not everybody has a phone that has the blocking function. No, not everybody is enough tech-savvy to use it. No, not everybody has the mental capacities to assess what you are even talking about.

      Cold calling is immoral and yes, people will get angry with you.

      1. KeepIt*

        yeah it’s not exactly my decision here, I think that’s pretty clear. Also I’m not taking advantage of elderly people and sort of resent the implication

        1. user679*

          You complained here about people who get angry that you cold call them.

          You are in the wrong here.

          You are the problem. Not the people. Sorry.

          1. KeepIt*

            Wow. This is unnecessarily rude and judgmental. You, maybe, don’t have all of the information about what exactly I’m doing/my job necessary to make a judgement call about that?

          3. Karen from Finance*

            It’s the fault of whoever made the decision to cold call people, not the person who ends up assigned the order to cold call. KeepIt has made very clear that it is their job to make the calls and that they do not like it. And while I agree that making the cold calls is immoral, you can’t fault that on the people whose jobs and livelihoods depend on it. It’s unfair and cruel. Shame on you.

    5. Val Zephyr*

      The real question is, why is cold calling still a thing in 2019 when there are several other more acceptable ways to contact people? As others have noted, people answer the call because emergency calls often come from unknown numbers. People get annoyed about cold calls because they are really disruptive.

      1. KeepIt*

        Well golly I’m really really sorry that I need a job people. Ok. I get it I am so so done with the “holier than thou” comments on this site. Alison, can we freeze the comments on this post, I have no desire for people to continue dissecting what I have to do to put food on the table

        1. Val Zephyr*

          Commenters are trying to point out that your anger is misdirected. Don’t be mad at the people you’re calling for being rightfully annoyed. Be mad at you’re employer for using outdated tactics to solicit money.

          1. KeepIt*

            Look I know I get it. I said I just needed to vent. I know. I hate receiving these calls too but I’ve never screamed down the phone at someone either. That is not an ok reaction no matter who’s on the other end

          2. Arctic*

            The OP is allowed to be upset at people screaming at her. I’m really concerned about behavior people here think is acceptable.

      2. T. Boone Pickens*

        Cold calling is still a thing because there is a general shift towards people moving towards social selling and cold calling is still an extremely effective tool (I’d argue ever moreso because people are getting far less comfortable talking on the phone and if you’re really good on the phone you’re way ahead of the curve). Now, my experience is strictly on the business cold calling side versus the telemarketing/fundraising side so there are certainly some differences. While I don’t *love* cold calling, I’m comfortable with it as my being self-employed, my livelihood depends on it. It also helps that I’m really, really, really good at what I do so my cold call probably sounds far more polished than your part-time work study student calling from your alma mater for a fundraiser.

    6. KeepIt*

      folks – I just wanted to vent about a single unpleasant task I was assigned today. I really really do not want to debate whether you think this (again! single task I have to do for the broader part of my job) is “immoral” or not. Believe me I’ve learned my lesson about venting on here. Please just move on my day has ALREADY been crummy enough, thanks

    7. Karen from Finance*

      I’m sorry for the response you’ve been getting in this thread.

      I agree, cold calling is terrible, but it’s not your fault that they’re making you do this. And I’m pretty sure of this, because I don’t think anyone would pick “making cold calls” as their job if they had an option, it’s a thing that sucks doing.

      I always try to be kind when taking these calls and try to let people down easy. On a few occassions I’ve had callers be rude to ME which is startling – an insurance seller angrily tell me it was “my loss” after they’d pushed me for a reason for declining and I said simply “I’m an economist, I’ve done the numbers, but thank you”. But I always do try to be warm and kind to callers because boy is it a dehumanizing job where they go through some crap. Doesn’t hurt to try to make the day easier for someone else.

      Anyway. I get it, people, getting these calls is annoying. But be kind to your fellow humans. We’re all struggling here. Try to have a little empathy. You wanna be mad that cold calling is a thing? Take it up to the guys upstairs, the ones still making decisions like it’s 1960.

      KeepIt, I’m sorry you had a bad day. Hope you get to rest this weekend, and/or do something fun.

      1. KeepIt*

        Thank you so much Karen, I really appreciate it. I’ve had an awful day and have probably been taking things too personally as a result

    8. Koala dreams*

      I guess people are annoyed already by the ringing on the phone, and then they want to vent at someone. And then you just want to vent. That’s the vicious circle for you!

      1. KeepIt*

        For sure! Luckily it’s only something I have to do quarterly if we’re not meeting the “targets” for a pledge drive

        1. MostCake*

          I’m curious how effective the cold calling is? Not being snarky, I just wonder if it really brings in funds? Signed, Curious.

    9. A Non E. Mouse*

      Hopefully my cold calling antecdote will lighten this thread a bit.

      My alma mater had students calling for donations, but matched degrees to careers (which is impressive, because my degree from there is not what my career is, so kudos to them for updating databases!) so that students were calling those doing the job they presumably want to do when they graduate.

      Poor gal calling me got an absolute earful about IT only being “interesting” if by “Interesting” you mean an absolute shit-show of everything from end users thinking anything near a computer (including power – literal actual damn ELECTRICITY) is wholly under your control to executives thinking you can make ancient network hardware faster with just some duct tape and magic pixie dust, plus everything in between.

      It was a bad day. I had her laughing, but I also have not received any more calls.

    10. Jaid*

      I just answer and ask to be taken off the call list. Huh. My brother works for the alumni association at a local college doing fund raisers. I’ll have to ask him about the donor call thing and how effective it is…

  148. Really?*

    Last week I presented at my professional organization’s monthly lunch and learn. It was regarding implementing a performance management process, and I used my past experience in my presentation. My PPT slides, in PDF format, were sent out to all those who attended. When it was converted to a PDF my name and company were not showing in the footer.
    Just 30 minutes ago I attended a meeting set up by one of my “partners” (not same job, not direct team, but reports to the same grand boss) She wanted to discuss the upcoming PM process and wanted to share with us some best practices that we could implement.
    You guessed it, she was using my slides from that presentation. She said “if we do these best practices developed by an expert in this process, we would be better.” I let her get a few slides in and asked her where she got those slides. She got them from one of her former colleagues who had attended the lunch and learn, but couldn’t remember the name of the “well-respected expert from a major organization.”
    I then pulled out a flyer with my picture on it showing I was the presenter at that lunch and learn, and let her know those were my slides, and the process covered in those slides is the EXACT process we have been using at the company for 4 years since I implemented the process. It has been incredibly successful, and sure there are always areas of improvement and we are always improving, but overall it has been so well received other business areas of my company are implementing the process I defined and the tools I created.
    This company and these people do not see me as the expert that my industry colleagues see me as. I publish articles routinely, I speak at lunch and learns, at conferences, I present webinars– to people in my industry- but these people think I make this sh*t up.
    I try not to take these kinds of things personally, I really do, but after 5 years of people disregarding my opinion and my work as not “expert level” it is personal, and I am over it. It is time to leave.
    I have never encountered anything like this…

    1. Kathenus*

      I feel you so much on this. There’s a pretty well-known saying in my field (and maybe in many) that an expert is someone who doesn’t work here. I have a specific niche skill set and have been invited to speak on it in many places including internationally, but I can’t even get a toe in with that expertise at my own organization. Frustrating or laughable depending on my mood. I loved the scenario though and how you were able to point it out in such a perfect situation!

      1. Really?*

        Oh Kathenus, I am sorry you deal with something similar! The thing that kills me is the leaders and employees in the company respect me a lot, and call on me for support, advice, and coaching all the time… but my direct colleagues– my partners in support of our company do not have any respect for me.
        When I was telling my mentor (outside my company) about it a few minutes ago thinks that it is because they don’t really understand this area of the business, which is FINE, they do not need to- they need to trust me.

        I really am over it, and will begin job hunting this next week. I can’t keep putting up with this. I feel like I am not valued, and that instead of working as trusted partners, as I so desperately want to do, they actively shut me out, because I am not a box checker. I want to do things well, and for the greater good of our employees.

    2. KayEss*

      I’m so sorry the environment is such that this happened to you, but what an epic shutdown! I hope everyone involved has their ears burning with shame for months.

    3. Mazzy*

      I am so on your side on this. On the flip side, you’re very lucky this happened. It’s a pretty unlikely scenario, what happened to you, and I’m glad the stars aligned and it did.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m sorry this is so late and I’m REALLY sorry this happened to you, because it’s complete and utter bs. What did she say when you told her they were your slides? I’m so glad you spoke up during that meeting. I would have been furious.

  149. Kali*

    As per my previous comment – right above this one – I’m a senior student ambassador, which means that instead of doing the tours on open days, I tell other people to do the tours. This week was a pub night, which means we all go to the pub after work (not me, due to migraine) and have a drink on the admissions team. Context; we’re in the UK, so underage drinking at university isn’t an issue. If you’re old enough to attend, you’re old enough to legally drink. Anyway, Thursday morning, we all woke up to an email from the admin team saying people had been taking advantage by ordering prosecco and double gins, and therefore the budget for our end-of-term meal would be reduced accordingly. I’d kind-of like to discuss this – I’m not going to take any action, or speak to the admin team about it because it’s done, and I don’t see how it would help, but I think it would be useful to think it through, because I don’t feel like this is the best way to handle it. Firstly, because the tone of the email implied people were taking advantage and ordering more than they normally would. I don’t think that’s necessarily true; personally, I don’t go out all that often, so, if I did, I might well order a double-gin if I fancied one, and not worry about the price because it’s only an occasional thing. The people I know who ordered prosecco are people who, I’m pretty sure, would still order prosecco if they were paying themselves (though I may very well be wrong about that – it’s pure conjecture). Another factor is, I don’t really have a concept of the range of prices for drinks, and how they compare to one another, due to the aforementioned lack-of-drinking, so I have no idea if the drinks I like are relatively expensive or not. Maybe I am giving other people too much credit here, and they were being a bit cheeky. Either way, I think a better way to handle it would have been to communicate a budget to use in advance, and/or to let the barstaff know in advance. That way, they could just avoid offering doubles, or let people know they could only order singles or pay the difference themselves. Same with prosecco, ask people to pay the difference or order an alternative. I don’t think anyone would push it – and if they did, that’s a very specific issue to deal with – and it would have kept the budget down. In my last job, our Christmas parties came with 3 free drinks vouchers which were handled in that way – they had an unlisted maximum, which the staff were aware of, and so they offered alternatives if we wanted a more expensive drink.

    1. valentine*

      I was liking the voucher idea, but someone may want to use multiple vouchers on one drink, and why not? This all seems so petty. Surely it evens out because some people can’t attend and others drink less.

  150. Loves Libraries*

    Hi. I had an interview and was told if I was successful and got the job that the organization would run a criminal background check on me and take the fee out of my first paycheck. I’ve had many background checks and nothing to hide but I’ve never had to pay for it myself. Is this really weird??

    2. Happy To Report*

      They’ll only make you pay if you got that job? That’s weird. What if they offer you the job, you take the background check and fail, what then? Do they bill you? That’s ridiculous. They’re trying to offload the cost of doing business to employees which is not cool.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        They’ll run the background check after LL is already working for them, so there will be a paycheck to deduct from. Which doesn’t make it any less ridiculous.

    3. City Girl*

      I have never heard of the candidate having to pay for the background check. Background checks should be a cost of them doing business and they are trying to pass the buck onto you.

      Also, say the background check costs $50, what’s to stop them from taking $60 out of your first check?

    4. Catsaber*

      It’s super weird. That’s one of those “cost of doing business” kind of things. Did they give a reason why?

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      That is VERY weird. What about all the background checks they run for people who don’t get the job? Or people who turn down the job? Are they going to show you a receipt to confirm they’re only taking out the actual cost of the check? It’s all ridiculous. If they require a background check, THEY should pay for the background check.

    8. Schnoodle HR*

      So unfortunately I had a job where they charged for the drug screen. The logic? Get this, so that they know they better pass because they’ll be paying for it…but um…if they don’t pass they don’t get hired and they don’t pay so…Logic wasn’t a thing for them, I made my case but they decided that we’d keep doing it.

      I was HR and payroll so I had the privilege of doing this. They did it to me when I was hired on too and I should have protested then.

      It’s weird and a sign that it’s a bad culture.

      The only exception is staffing agencies, they do it often because they don’t always place you so you pay up front. But that makes way more sense, if you fail and they can’t place you they don’t incur that cost. But if they’re collecting AFTER hire…yeah no logic.

      It’s a huge morale killer too. New job, YAY, wait what? I haven’t worked an hour enough to cover what your’e going to charge me for the privilege of a background/drug test? I mean, the cost of it should be paid by the company, trust me they’re not getting their money’s worth by charging the employee. As soon as they see the company’s already nickel and diming they’re filling out new hire paperwork and wondering if they’ll have time that night to apply for another job.

    9. FFHP*

      Eh, I work for a public school district and before I was officially hired, I had to pay for my background check AND drug screen. I was recommended for the position, however, and all I had to do to start working was pay for and pass background check and drug screen, so it seemed worth it to get a good job. I probably paid $50 total.

      1. Drago Cucina*

        Yep, not unusual for school positions. My former principal didn’t apply to one district because there was a $20 application fee.

      2. SaaSyPaaS*

        Yes, this. I had to pay for my background check when I worked for a public school. I don’t remember exactly how much it was, but I want to say it was $30-$50.

    10. Loves Libraries*

      Thanks y’all. It’s a public library position and the library is under the control of the public school board.

  151. Pink Shoelaces*

    My husband is salaried, basically doing manual type labor involving complex repair work in buildings owned by big box stores. It requires a lot of out of town travel to perform work for his company’s clients. He drives to his destinations in a company owned work van (sometimes traveling 10 to 12 hours each way — driving is required because he has to take specialized equipment with him which is too big for flying). He usually works with a team of three to four people. Everyone is salaried.

    He does not travel every week, but when he does, his work schedule usually includes a day of driving to the destination (usually anywhere from 6 to 12 hours), up to four or five days of working six hours to eight hours each day, and then driving back.

    Next week, he is being sent to a state 20 hours away for 14 days. He will be working the same 6 to 8 hours per day during each and every day of those 14 days. (In other words, even without the driving, they routinely work more than 40 hours; counting the driving, it is significantly more).

    I know from talking with my husband that he and his company think he (and the other workers on his team) do not have to be paid overtime because he (they) are salaried.

    I have a few questions: Based on his job — could he be considered an exempt employee? If not exempt, he and the other employees would be entitled to overtime, correct? Also, I believe the time driving would be considered “working time”, is that correct?

    Someone close to us owns this company and I’m really concerned they are in violation of wage and hour laws. I’m less concerned about my husband getting overtime pay than I am about the company getting in trouble. This is a small company and they would not survive if one of the workers sued them over this.

    Does any of this ring any alarm bells from a wage law standpoint?

    1. irene adler*

      You’ll want to consult the FLSA site. It’s quite lengthy.
      https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html
      If he’s the supervisor of the team then yes, he’s considered exempt. But then that would mean his reports (the other members of the team) are non-exempt and should be drawing pay for all the hours they work plus the OT for hours greater than 40 that they work.

      Pay for non-exempt employees would include travel time in the company vehicle during the work day. But read the below website to be sure.
      https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs22.htm
      From the web site:
      Home to Work Travel:
      An employee who travels from home before the regular workday and returns to his/her home at the end of the workday is engaged in ordinary home to work travel, which is not work time.
      Home to Work on a Special One Day Assignment in Another City:
      An employee who regularly works at a fixed location in one city is given a special one day assignment in another city and returns home the same day. The time spent in traveling to and returning from the other city is work time, except that the employer may deduct/not count that time the employee would normally spend commuting to the regular work site.
      Travel That is All in a Day’s Work:
      Time spent by an employee in travel as part of their principal activity, such as travel from job site to job site during the workday, is work time and must be counted as hours worked.
      Travel Away from Home Community:
      Travel that keeps an employee away from home overnight is travel away from home. Travel away from home is clearly work time when it cuts across the employee’s workday. The time is not only hours worked on regular working days during normal working hours but also during corresponding hours on nonworking days. As an enforcement policy the Division will not consider as work time that time spent in travel away from home outside of regular working hours as a passenger on an airplane, train, boat, bus, or automobile.

    2. Schnoodle HR*

      Good links above, but unless he’s paid $100,000 a year he is not exempt in any way shape or form based on these duties and should be paid overtime.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WUT?! Please explore the links provided above and dig into this deeper.

      Manual labor is very rarely exempt unless you’re a big boss, like the other comment says, 100k a year or more “highly compensated employee”.

      How much autonomy does he have here? He doesn’t seem to be a foreman, just a lead perhaps so they most likely are mis-classifying these guys which sets my rage button over the edge.

      There’s a reason why construction and repairs are expensive AF. The people are paid a great hourly wage and then they kick into OT at 40 hours.

  152. Ringster*

    When do you CC someone’s boss?
    It feels like tattle-telling, which is why I’m reluctant to do so. I’ve had it happen to me a few times, and it was usually justified, like when someone has sent me a few emails, and I haven’t gotten back to them, they’ll follow up and CC my boss. It’s a little frustrating, but understandable, since I’m the one who has failed.
    Today, I’m following up on an email that I initially sent on February 6th, and although they’ve responded, they haven’t been super communicative, and they definitely haven’t finished my request (something that was supposed to be finished on the 5th). Is this the point when I CC this person’s manager? Is that too aggressive? What’s the protocol on this?

    1. fposte*

      This is going to be field and workplace-dependent. In my workplace the answer is “almost never.” Is it more than one person who’d done that with you, and if it’s just one, are they otherwise pretty reliable on norms?

      Our responses would be calling/walking over to the person’s desk or checking with our manager on next steps first. Can you try any of those?

      1. Ringster*

        Thanks for the comments, these are helpful things to consider! It’s been more than one person who’s done the CC’ing a manager thing- my company is spread out in offices all over the city, so it’s hard to communicate via anything other than email- so maybe that makes it more common to CC other people on a follow up email? That’s also why I unfortunately can’t walk to their desk. I could try calling- that’s not a bad idea (although it’s a rarer form of communication at my company.)
        My manager and grand-manager are both unfortunately out of town today, which is why I’m at a bit of a loss… I think I’ll try calling, and if that doesn’t work, I’ll probably just send the email without CC’ing the manager, and wait to talk to my manager when she’s back in town.

        Thanks for the help!

    2. Colette*

      I’d do it when:
      – I’ve asked for something multiple times over at least 3 days, but haven’t gotten a response
      – If possible, I’ve tried calling or catching them at their desk but haven’t succeeded
      OR
      – I know that I never hear back from this person unless I copy their boss

      Something that also works for me when I haven’t gotten an answer in a reasonable amount of time is to forward the email to their boss directly and say “I asked Sam for X, but haven’t received a response. I assume she’s out – is there someone else who can help me?” That tends to be effective.

      BUT – in your case, you are getting answers, just not the ones you want. So I’d probably go to my manager and flag the issue that way, or else call a meeting with the person to iron out the issues in person.

    3. Beatrice*

      I do it when someone’s keeping me from getting my work done well, and I’ve made a reasonable attempt to resolve it with them myself, and it hasn’t worked. I don’t do it just for someone not responding to a couple of emails unless it’s a process that’s heavily email dependent, but YMMV…the culture where I am is that you don’t ding someone for being unresponsive to one form of communication until you’ve tried a different one without success.

  153. MechanicalPencil*

    My job has recently decided that since so many of us are remote, we should start having all of our meetings via video chat rather than just voice chat. Aside from hiding behind my coffee mug and/or a hat, how else can I entertain myself?

    3. DataGirl*

      My cats almost always participate in our Skype meetings, in that if I am home they are glued to my lap. Most people love to see them ‘helping’ and if they don’t, they aren’t saying anything.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      We video chat a lot, but always with warning– I started my first call at 4:30 AM and only just now had a chance to take a shower and get properly dressed. If my 3rd call at 8:00 was a video chat they would have seen my hair sticking up and me in my robe, with no makeup on. LOL!
      My puppy usually makes an appearance at some point in a call.

  154. Kristi E.*

    My owners have several companies in related fields. I’m the teapot manager of two of the smaller companies. In two years the teapot manager of the largest company is retiring. When would be a good time to go to the owner and say, “Hey, I want that job when Drucilla retires”? The only reason it came up was we had an outside vendor mention that in two years we should hire her for that job. I was planning on waiting but if they are thinking about it, I want them to be thinking of me. I am happy at my current company but not challenged. And if I didn’t get it, I wouldn’t leave the company. But there is no where else to go in my current position.

    1. fposte*

      If it’s already come up, I think it’s reasonable to raise it. “As you may know, I’m looking for growth, and I’d really be interested in taking over Drusilla’s position when she retires–is that a possibility, and what do you think I should do to work toward that in the mean time?”

  155. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Job Hunt Commiseration!

    I closed out everything with my last contract a couple days ago and they finally realized they had to shut my systems access off. In the past my (remote) manager has been pretty conflict-averse and I knew that the intervention with the CEO was probably not a fun time for him. He rushed off the “okbye” so quickly on the phone call I hadn’t realized I’d been saying goodbye to dead air! The company laptop is getting taken to a neutral party (the staffing agency) and I’m going to go see Alita: Battle Angel afterwards.

    Then it’s back home, tackle my accumulation of fashion, and keep at the job search. I’ve been thorough and thoughtful but it drives me nuts sometimes. I’ve been through it so many times before but I feel like I’m waiting on that green light, burning gas all the while.

  156. Me--Blargh!*

    Nothing to report, except rejections. No response from the squee-worthy job, but I didn’t expect one anyway. My brother said he messaged his contact at Job in BiggerCity (it’s a company his company does some work with) but he doesn’t know if Contact has any pull at all. There is really nothing to apply to in MyCity right now; it’s demoralizing to click on the link and see that all the new jobs are stuff I applied to before that either rejected or ghosted me, or stuff I’m not qualified for (upper-level management; police officer, must have forklift certification, etc.).

    And I accidentally sent my resume to a scammer who used a legit company name as a front. Great. I discovered this from the reply email, a typical crap message with terrible English and a request for more info (I’m not completely stupid; they didn’t get it). Bracing myself for a round of scam calls. Luckily, the phone number on my resume is a Google Voice number and not my real one. I reported the ad to the job board.

    The weather has been utterly dismal–cold and dark. This house is dark. My brain is dark–I can’t even think. It feels like all I do is sleep and eat and listen to dogs bark. I feel like I’m in prison. I know I’ll feel better when it warms up and becomes sunnier. It’s just so DARK in here. It’s like a cave. And it won’t stop raining/icing/snowing. I want to go outside, but it’s so bleah!

    1. Cute Li'l UFO*

      For the dark weather, I picked up a Happy Light a few years back. I’ve always known that I get some seasonal depression (winter) as well as mania (spring) but it took me so long to actually do something more. I put it back on my way to check out one year because I just couldn’t with that name.

      The light has been a total game changer.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        That’s nice, but I don’t have any money for that. Maybe I’ll get one when I get a job.

        Also, I love your username. :D

    2. Colette*

      Sorry to hear it’s not going well. Is networking a possibility for you? Even if it doesn’t lead to anything, I found it helpful to get together to chat with people who know me as a competent professional, especially when I had been unemployed for a long time.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        When I do talk about it with people, I end up explaining about my LD fifty thousand times and getting fifty thousand useless suggestions. “Have you tried–” Yes, Karen, I tried that. And that. And the other thing. There’s no job growth here. Networking isn’t going to solve that, and I don’t want to talk about it continually.

  157. Rellysa*

    Ultra-rich clients are the absolute worst:

    my day job is admin for a home improvement company. It’s very small. I’m the person who handles scheduling the jobs and processing invoices, etc. We have this one client who is so awful (and has verbally abused me more than once) that my boss just automatically takes any and all correspondence from him. I’ll initiate by sending invoices or files, but that’s it. I don’t respond or engage otherwise. Even my boss said I don’t make enough to deal with him, so I don’t.

    Anyway we did some work for him and the service included a video file. I sent it with some other notes directly from the workers and he immediately replied with “this .avi doesn’t work, convert it to quicktime and re-send it.” and then proceeded to argue with me about the work that was done and clearly shown in the video. Not to mention an entire offloading of, you guessed it, more demands and verbal abuse in the email.

    I’m not his f*&!#% assistant. He couldn’t afford me if I was, tbh. My boss should have refused to serve him years ago but still does because he’s a pushover. So I don’t even know what to respond about the demand for a quicktime file because that’s not my job, I don’t work for Rich Dude.

    None of our middle-class or lower-income clients are like this. Not a single one. ONLY the wealthiest ones (not all of them, by any means, but every single one of our “special” cases are all very wealthy and we can’t afford to turn down their business).

    Just had to vent.

    1. Mister and Mouse*

      I worked in luxury cars for years and the super rich were a lot nicer than the ‘I overtaxed my budget to buy this car and every time it needs brakes or tyres I’m on beans on toast for months’ crowd. I went from top level, where I worked for six years and went out on cars runs with my customers and never laughed so hard to a luxury brand with sports cars and more middle cost SUVs and got ripped to shreds about trivia on the regular. An a hole is an a hole.

  158. Mashed potato*

    How long after you get a degree that If you don’t have the experience to get into the field, your degree gets stale?
    And people who work in very technical or hire for technical position, how particular are y’all about haivng x years of experiences working in y?
    And are there employer still out there who don’t see skills as transferable and have to be to a tee?

    I don’t get much phone calls anymore and I feel like my lack of technical experience in a technical field is holding me back. i’ve literally have had someone told me that they don’t see any related or transferable skills bc of somethjnf I do.. sigh

    1. TechWorker*

      I hire for technical positions but mostly grads so I’m not the right person to talk about years of experience.. in terms of transferable skills it obviously depends on context but I think it’s good to go into the interview being prepared to discuss how you think your skills are transferable to the context needed in the role? I’ve been really impressed by interviewees before where they had something on their CV that looked q unrelated and they gave really good answers to how it was relevant to what we wanted.

    2. user679*

      It probably depends on the country and the technical skills (how in demand they are).

      I would say the first job after graduating doesn’t need to be linked to your degree but if you then switch and your new position still doesn’t have anything to do with your degree, it might get difficult. Unless your jobs are actually to some degree related to your degree and/or you develop your skills in other ways (in your free time, volunteering, etc.).

  159. TechWorker*

    Any tips for overcoming jetlag at the point you are definitely already jetlagged? I returned back from 8 hrs east on Sunday (2 and a bit weeks business trip). I’ve been getting to sleep ok but waking up at ~3am and struggling to get back to sleep. I managed mon-wed, but had to work late on weds due to a not-actually-emergency (another story..) and this combined with sleeping badly has ruined me… I get up absolutely shattered and I’m struggling to focus. Any advice? Hoping the weekend will fix me but I have a commitment tomorrow I can’t really get out of :(

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I travel from North American to Europe and to a few Asian countries fairly regularly, in the past, I had a hard time recovering after I returned. When I started traveling more often I began getting B12 shots, and they help so much. I also take B12 and Vitamin D daily, both have been shown to help with jet lag. You can get B12 shots at those Med Spa type places, I get a Groupon and get 12 for about $36. I get one just before I go, and one on my way home from the airport if the place is open.
      Hope you recover quickly!

    2. Deryn*

      I want to preface this by saying that I don’t have any personal experience with jetlag or work with jetlag specifically, but my job is actually in sleep research! Normally I help pediatric patients with sleep issues related to chronic illness, not jetlag, but there are some things that might be useful to your situation.

      Of the top of my head, I might suggest seeing if you can actually stay awake later in the evening, which might help you sleep later in the morning, then slowly moving your bedtime back to where you want it. If you are still waking up early, rather than lying in bed, you can try moving to another location like the couch and do something calm (reading and knitting/crocheting are common, but keep the lights somewhat dim, and avoid electronics or TV) for 20-30 minutes, then lie down again. Normally my guidelines for after a rough night of sleep are that a short nap of no more than an hour, no later than 4 PM is okay if you feel like you really need it, but that it’s important to get up and turn on lights when that hour is up.

      Also, one thing it might reassure you to know is that research shows that people who have trouble sleeping consistently report having worse sleep and sleeping less than what we find when we use objective measures (looking at brain wave patterns, detecting how much they move over the course of the night, etc). Basically, you are likely getting better and more sleep than you think you are, even if it doesn’t always feel like it.

  160. Rebecca Wendell Holmes*

    TL; DR: if I was directly told that I would not be considered for a job because my mental health status was too publicly known, was that a breach of fair hiring practices?

    Full story: I have a full-time staff job at a university; I also used to have a part-time position as live-in resident staff working with students. Over the summer (a non-work period) I had a massive mental breakdown that included hospitalization and a suicide attempt. Up until then, my work had been exemplary and I had already been approved to return to work in the fall. My mental illness was generally invisible to the public previously (I just ‘had depression’) although I was definitely a struggle for me. My hospitalization was fairly public because I had to be transported from the residence hall in which I lived.

    Certainly I needed to take time from this second job to recover, and I resigned, although it broke my heart. I loved working as a live-in staff member and having the close connection to the students. My former supervisor was incredibly kind at the time I resigned, and told me that I would be welcome back at any time; that I had been a great employee and it was a loss to have me leave. In explaining my resignation to my students, I did mention that I had been suffering from a mental illness, and in the months that followed some of those students have thanked me for my honesty because it let them feel like they could get help too.

    Two weeks ago, after a lot of soul searching and discussions with my therapist, I contacted this supervisor to request that I be considered for return in the 2019-2020 year. Supervisor responded with an email inviting me in for a meeting (Quote: “I would LOVE to talk to you about returning!”) and set up the meeting ASAP.

    She came in to the meeting with one of the organization attorneys, and after a little chitchat said, and I quote: “While you were very good at the job and I appreciate your advocacy against stigma for mental illness, we can’t have you working here because too many people know. Your openness about your mental illness is a liability.”

    I was completely devastated, of course; I held it together in the meeting. But it’s been gnawing at me. There are lots of other reasons that I might not qualify for the job again; it baffles me that she went with the mental illness angle. But I also have a huge fear that this is the reason she has shared with other people in the organization, and that it is impacting my opportunities for advancement. And, of course, I feel like I cannot trust my former supervisor, which further limits my future. Plus, there’s the monetary aspect I am losing out on; the compensation is about $20,000.

    I don’t know what, if anything, I should do about this whole situation. Help.

    1. Grumpus*

      Where are u based?

      In the UK, your mental health may be classed as a disability if it meets 4 criteria: physical or mental impairment that has a long-term *and* substantial effect on day to day activities. Your mental health may be classed as a disability if it meets these criteria. A breakdown or depression or anxiety or any illness actually unless it is cancer is not classed as a disability rather it is the *effects* of the illness. You can classify the effects as a disability even if you take medication which makes those effects manageable and better. The law in the UK also protects you if you were disabled in the past but are no longer disabled now (which might apply here?)

      If you meet this criteria you can claim that your employer is failing to make reasonable adjustments fo4 your disability and you may make an effort towards rectifying this by raising a grievance (try th4 equality and advisory service resources for the wording), then if that doesn’t work through mediation through ACAS, then finally through legal proceedings. I believe there is a time limit between raising the grievance and being eligible for legal recourse, which is either 3 weeks and 1 day or 3 months and 1 day (Sorry, I can’t quite remember!).

      My understanding is that if you don’t meet the protected characteristics (mental health is not one of them unless it makes you disabled) then failing to make reasonable adjustments is not against the law. Crappy behaviour, yes, but not illegal.

      It depends on where you live though and what the laws are in your part of the world, and I am sure that an actual lawyer will be able to set you (and me) straight. My advice though would be to see your doctor first for clear guidance on your medical condition and how it affects you long term.

    2. Colette*

      I have no idea what the laws say about this, and generally I would see no reason why a mental illness should prevent you from getting a job.

      But.

      This job is live-in staff living closely with students, and you were recently (if I understand the timeline) hospitalized for a suicide attempt. I’m guessing that you would be the designated adult, and would work without much direct supervision, and I would be worried about what would happen if you had another mental breakdown. How would that affect students who are also struggling with their mental health? What would happen if you attempted suicide and died as a result?

      Similarly, if your mental health is shaky, how would dealing with students struggling with similar issues affect your health?

      Now, if I’m misunderstanding the situation and you’d be living with 3 peers in a situation where you all look after each other, then maybe none of this is a concern – but if you are the one adult in a dorm of 100 kids with no regular peer or supervisor interaction, I’d be concerned that this could end both badly and publicly.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m not a lawyer, but it sounds at least borderline to me. Any chance you could get a consult with an employment lawyer? And do you have any follow up documentation of what was said in that meeting?

    4. fposte*

      This is weird on several levels. There are situations where such an illness couldn’t be accommodated sufficiently in a residential position, but 1) it doesn’t sound like you’re currently in need of such accommodations and 2) it sounds like they’re focused on the fact that you *told* people about your illness, which is appalling. Are you in the US? Then I’d check with your local EEOC office (it’s also possible Section 504 might apply, but I’m iffy on how that works with a student job). If there’s a Disability Resources coordinator at the university, it could be helpful to check with them too. But when you say an “organization attorney,” do you mean this was an attorney for the actual university that she said this with the blessing of? If so, you probably won’t get much help from within the university. Check also for state resources; California, for instance, has state laws about disability discrimination in education that would give you more options.

      You don’t have to want to sue to contact the EEOC, BTW; there are other things that might happen. But this sounds worryingly shady.

    5. Arctic*

      If you are in the US this sounds like a breach of the ADA. They can’t discriminate based on disabilities, as a general rule. There are times when a disability would preclude someone from doing a very specific job (blind person can’t be a bus driver.) But that doesn’t sound like it would fly in this situation. And, typically, you have to have a conversation about it.
      That an attorney said that is astounding.

      1. automaticdoor*

        Agreed. I’m really surprised by this. (From spelling/word choice, guessing OP is American.) I think it’s worth taking to the EEOC folks.

      2. Temperance*

        I think the nature of Rebecca’s mental health issues might make this a bit different than straight discrimination under the ADA. It’s so fact-specific that we can’t say for sure just based on the comment. I can see an argument against rehiring just from the fact that the suicide attempt and hospitalization occurred in the residence hall and a person in that position needs to be responsible for the students under her care.

        1. LilySparrow*

          If the students are undergraduates, especially freshmen, then it might not be the organizations’s concern about her current/ongoing health, but the students’ parents.

          Universities do a lot to manage optics for the sake of parents. If the suicide attempt was widely known and talked about, coupled with OP’s advocacy, there may be a number of parents who are unwilling to have their students assigned to OP’s residence, or who might demand a transfer after finding out.

          That is a shame and I certainly am not arguing in favor it. But it is a plausible scenario. And many university students, though legally adults, depend on their parents for tuition and therefore the parent is the “paying customer” who must be appeased.

        2. fposte*

          That’s a wobbly area for me too, but universities are absolutely capable of breaching the law to CYA, and I think it’s worth checking with somebody versed in the relevant law of higher ed and employment.

        3. WellRed*

          I agree. There’s issues here that extend to the health and well being of the students, which has to be the priority. I’m sorry, but glad you are doing better.

    6. LaDeeDa*

      I don’t know anything about the law/protections for you. I just wanted to give you a virtual *hug* and tell you I hope you are well and that you can get some good advice on how to proceed!

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yikes! It may be worth visiting a local employment attorney about and letting them know the situation. However given that she had their own counsel present, I cannot imagine that she was staying within the law. Of course that’s not something that’s always true, it depends on what the attorney is even versed in, if they don’t know a darn thing about employment law, that could be why they didnt’ stop her from this kind of reasoning.

      I’m unsure how they get around the fact they straight up said “you’re good at the job, you are qualified but you know, you’re medical issue makes you a liability.” I wonder if they’re worried you’ll harm yourself on their watch and yes, that would be a huge issue but we take that risk hiring anyone and everyone out there, rarely does someone disclose their diagnosis like you did. You did to advocate for mental health issues after all, so it seems utterly unfair and gross but not being an employment attorney let alone one in your jurisdiction, it’s just too hard to call by a comment. Please speak to a lawyer, many will give you a free consult and possibly take it on contingency if they think it’s an easy case.

    8. AnonAnon*

      You need your own attorney to analyze this. I’m actually appalled that her own attorney didn’t stop her. She very clearly said that you were “very good at the job.” If you were very good at the job, then there is no reason they could not re-hire you. She also explicitly stated that the mental illness is not the problem, but rather the fact that people know about it.

      My understanding of the law is that the only way they can even address this is if your illness has an actual, provable impact on your ability to do the job. I’m struggling to comprehend how they could demonstrate that. And her statements to you are evidence that she is not actually thinking about your ability to do the work. It’s pretty clear now why they wanted to meet in person, to avoid producing a paper record.

      At a minimum, you need to consult an attorney and get their opinion.

    9. valentine*

      if I was directly told that I would not be considered for a job because my mental health status was too publicly known, was that a breach of fair hiring practices?
      Yes.

      It would make sense if she specified the equivalent of “You have seizures and the position requires driving,” but, her stated problem is your openness, as though she might hire you elsewhere on the condition you don’t disclose, which is also gross.

  161. Atlanta? follow up*

    Thanks for all your responses to my questions about working in Atlanta the last two weeks. I’m working weekends right now, which has made it hard to check back in and reply to everyone. Had my video interview this week, and think that we’re not a good fit but will wait to see if they make me an offer to discuss further details with them.

    Thanks again.

  162. user679*

    Should you apply for participation in a high potentials program if you don’t know whether there are strings attached which you wouldn’t accept?

    Basically, I don’t know whether they wouldn’t want me to sign that I will stay with the company for a year or two. The problem is, I’m not happy with my salary, so I’m not sure if I will stay for so long. I would like to avoid getting into this program and then turning it down upon learning about the conditions.

    I have analyzed all available info of course and there’s no mention of strings attached. And I don’t want to ask my boss about it for obvious reasons.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Absolutely apply. You get the consider whether the opportunity is right for you just as much as they get to consider whether you are right for the opportunity.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      APPLY! Usually High-potential programs are created, facilitated, and funded internally separate from “education” funding (degree specific education).
      I run a high-po program and part of the reason we have it is so we don’t lose high-potential employees- and participants are usually the first considered in internal openings and promotions. If a high number of participants identified as high-po, participate in the program, then leave- it is a metric I use to convey to the leaders that we aren’t giving enough opportunities to get these people to stay.

  163. I'm A Little Teapot*

    This just happened. Please everyone, kill me and hide the body.

    Had meeting to get approval of plan. Big boss asks if we did X. No, I didn’t do X. I CAN’T do X. He has to do X. I assumed that he’d done X when he gave me the project (incorrect assumption). X does need to get done, it won’t take long, but not having it done now potentially messes up the planning and definitely delays my timeline a bit. So, not ideal, but not the end of the world.

    Problem: afterwards, I send an im to the boss asking him to do X, and I’ll take care of Y, then once he gets back to me I’ll incorporate. Then, I send an im to my coworker who’s working on the project with me, basically that the boss/big boss should have done X before they gave us the project. Except – that im didn’t go to coworker. It went to boss.

    agh!

    2. LaDeeDa*

      OH no!!!! That was yesterday’s topic about All Replys gone wrong!!

      Has anything happened, did they respond?

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        As of when I left, nothing. I know boss saw it, but realistically it was criticism I was going to verbalize at some point (we’re reworking our process, so there’s a lot of fluidity right now). It was just not worded as if I was going to send it to the boss.

  164. Daisy*

    Does anyone have any experience with contract-to-hire positions? I’m really young in my career and am in the final stages of the interview process for a contract-to-hire role. I’m not sure what to do about compensation, benefits, etc. I’m feeling a little out of my depth. Based on my research, it seems like I’m supposed to provide my own equipment, set my own work hours, and ask for a higher rate than normal (because I’ll have to pay my own taxes and provide my own health insurance). Does that sound right, or is that only for”normal” contractors and not specifically “contract-to-hire”? Any advice would be lovely!

    1. DataGirl*

      In the contract phase if they have you on a 1099 (assuming you are in the US) then they need to offer you a higher hourly rate because you are essentially paying both employer and employee taxes. My husband is a contractor and his taxes are outrageous. Some contract positions offer healthcare through the company, but it is much higher than what employees pay, and others don’t offer it at all so you have to go on the open market, which is very expensive. So either way make sure whatever rate they offer is enough to cover those costs as well.

      For perspective, I was in a government job with below-average health insurance but it was crazy cheap; I was paying $50/ month for a family of 4. When I went into the private sector I calculated how much more I would have to make to cover a higher premiums (went up to nearly $500/ month for that same family). When people asked my then current salary I would tell them $X salary plus $Y to cover premiums, means my base is $Z. Most places were cool about that.

    2. KR*

      I worked contract to hire for a major US utility. I worked for a staffing agency and was contracted out to my employer for about half a year before they made a decision to hire me on for the actual company. I still had taxes withheld and was offered health insurance though it was not good and I didn’t take it because I was otherwise covered. I also didn’t accrue any PTO. I would check with your potential employer to see how they handle contract to hire.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      So, there are two types of jobs called “contract” in the US.

      One type is the independent/1099 contractors. You’re hired by a company to do certain work (possibly within a certain timeframe, say 3/6/12/18 months). You complete that work to spec, on your own equipment, at a time more-or-less of your choosing (with allowances for meetings and other communications with the client, which have to be at a time/place that also works for them). This is what you described in your question.

      The other type of contractors are people who work for a staffing agency of some sort. In this case, the staffing agency is your employer and will withhold taxes and pay the employer’s share of Social Security. You may be placed on site at the client (using the client’s equipment), or you may be in a space provided by the agency (using the agency’s equipment). The “contract” in this case is actually between the client and the agency, rather than the client and the worker.

      When I’ve had contract-to-hire jobs in the past, they’ve always been the second type. I’ve always been on site at the client’s location, although I interviewed for one where I would’ve been at an agency site instead. Insurance was provided by the agency, but wasn’t necessarily good or cheap. There’s usually more room to negotiate on salary (which the agency may be able to pass on to the client) than on benefits (which are usually minimal).

      If you accept a contract-to-hire role, my biggest piece of advice is to speak to your on-site supervisor several weeks before your contract period ends to discuss what is involved in converting to a permanent employee of the client company. The conversion from contractor to permanent employee is another time when you can negotiate.

  165. Grumpus*

    I went for an interview on Monday – and as soon as I sat down to do the data interpretation test I withdrew my application. I was kind of mad at them actually – I’d spent several hours over the preceding week preparing myself and doing practice data interpretation texts (ratios, percentages, equations etc). The task they gave me was to do a graph in Excel. I’ve never done that before and they didn’t specify that it was a requirement of the post.

    Am I wrong in thinking it was on them to be specific about this? I feel like that test was getting at my computer skills (which aren’t actually terrible anyway) rather than my maths skills, and that it was a monumental waste of my and their time, not to mention the fact that I took the place of someone more suitable!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It’s fine to have withdrawn if it felt like something you couldn’t succeed at or didn’t want to do, but I don’t think they did anything wrong.

      I don’t know if “data interpretation” has a specific meaning in your field, but as an outsider creating and understanding graphs feels like it could reasonably be included.

    2. TechWorker*

      I’m sorry as this probably isn’t what you’re looking to hear – but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect someone applying for a data focussed role to be able to create a graph in excel, regardless of whether it was specifically mentioned in the job description. If you are in a role that involves any sort of data analysis you might reasonably expect to present the results, and excel is a the most standard way of doing that. I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you!

      1. Grumpus*

        That’s ok, thanks both for your answer :) it was a stretch role which I was nervous about applying for but I did reasonably feel that I could manage the responsbilities in it – so did they I guess if they invited me for interview. I feel kind of bad now that my excel skills weren’t up to scratch :[

        2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

          On the plus side, now you know an area where you can improve your skills and be more appealing to employers. Your other skills are up to par, learn Excel and go for it!

    3. ..Kat..*

      I think that if they wanted you to be able to use Excel, they should have specified that. Data interpretation is vague. There are so many different programs (SPSS, SAS, Excel, write your own program in C++, etc) that I think they should have been more specific.

    4. Someone Else*

      My company would consider a graph in Excel a very basic “data interpretation” task and it would never occur to us to explicitly specify that such a role would require that skill, any more than we’d specify you need to know how to use email for the role. Additionally, the type of role you described (unless it means something different in your field) I would expect to require above-average computer skills for any type of advanced analysis. Less about whether you personally can do the math and more whether you know how to use the software to make it do it, and then interpret the result. So even if the test were more about your computer skills than your math skills, I think that sort of a test is very reasonable for this type of role.

  166. VeryAnonToday*

    Our best sales person just got head hunted by a rival brand and ever since she got her job offer she’s been making really rude comments about our brand (we are a well known makeup brand) and she came into the store today to collect something and said something along the lines of ‘it’ll be nice to know I won’t be peddling **** in a month’.

    Okay then. Ten years with us and you suddenly decide we’re crummy. And yet she’s our best salesperson because she’s enthusiastic about the brand.

    Is it normal for people to suddenly decide they absolutely hate who they’re working for when they get another job offer? She has never shown any sign of being disgruntled with the brand or her job in the ten years I’ve known her. What’s with the sudden attitude change?

    1. TechWorker*

      I would kinda guess that it isn’t sudden and what’s sudden is that she can now say those things without being fired. It’s pretty unprofessional… but I also imagine the proportion of sales people who are actually evangelical about the product they sell vs effectively pretending to be is small :p

    2. fposte*

      It could also just be how she’s dealing with guilt and anxiety. (And sometimes people who are the best salespeople are the best actors.) But I think it’s fine to push back if you want. “It’s weird the way you’re badmouthing Brand, Jane. We wouldn’t speak unprofessionally about NewBrand [that’s true, right?]. Why are you doing that to the brand that paid for your food and housing for so long?”

      1. VeryAnonToday*

        It’s just such a weird about turn in her attitude. Everyone holds opinions about makeup brands and there’s some stuff we sell that I don’t like to use so I use RivalBrand because it’s personal preference but I’d never badmouth any brand, ever. It’s never good to do that because you never know when you might be asking them for a job, in this industry.

        Thing is as well she was headhunted, she didn’t apply for the job. They were upfront about the fact they were after her (she has a really good reputation) and we weren’t surprised when she said yes. I just don’t think it’s very nice that she suddenly thinks it’s okay to be rude about us. If you wanted to work for RivalBrand why didn’t you jump ship earlier than after ten years with us?

        I dunno, I try to keep out of what sales do, I just stock the shop and paint peoples faces!

    3. Ali G*

      Sounds like she’s the most enthusiastic about whoever is paying her the most. I wouldn’t worry about it.

  167. Borth Sampson*

    Does anyone have ideas for places where you can work from home without being home?

    I do remote work and for the most part enjoy it, but because I’m in a very high CoL area I live with family. This family babysits a young child twice a week, and while I adore the kid it makes it very hard to work sometimes! I’ve tried coffee shops and the public library but feel very disruptive when I have to take calls from bosses/coworkers. I also don’t make enough money to pay for a membership to the WeWork kind of spaces, and it’s highly unlikely the company would pay for it. Has anyone ever run into something like this?

    1. Some suggestions*

      Is there a room in the home you can shut the door to and work in?

      If you live in an apartment building, is there a small meeting room you can use? For example, my apartment building has a business center with a small meeting room that you can reserve. If not, can you work out of a hotel lobby in a quieter corner?

      1. Borth Sampson*

        The business center is a great idea! We live in a fairly small townhouse (and kiddo can open doors… she’s like the Jurassic Park raptors) but I have pals who live in apartment complexes who might be willing to give me access to their buildings. Thank you!

        1. LaDeeDa*

          We are all remote, one of my admins found someone who needed a dog walker for an elderly dog. So every day she goes to this person’s house, cuddles the dog, plays with the dog, and takes the dog on 5 walks a day, for free WiFi and quiet. LOL! I think it is brilliant. Maybe post an ad on NextDoor, and ask for an exchange for pet companionship and walking- a quiet workspace?

          1. Borth Sampson*

            Sadly a lot of people in this area take their dogs to work with them because it’s just that kind of city, but honestly your admin is a genius.

    2. Drago Cucina*

      I wouldn’t worry about the public library unless you’re in the middle of the room taking loud calls. We have 6 study rooms and 12 study carrels that are enclosed on three sides. They are busy all day with “work from home” folks. We also have a cafe with a phone/tablet charger, tables, and vending machines. Lots of client meetings take place there.

        1. Drago Cucina*

          You’re welcome. Assisting businesses is a big deal in libraries. Lots of work force development and small business incubators activities at different libraries.

    3. n*

      Libraries usually have study rooms that you can reserve for blocks of time. If you have a planned phone meeting, that’s an option.

      Also, since you’re in a high COL area, I’ll assume it’s a metropolitan area (forgive me if I’m wrong)… Some coffee shops have rooms that you can reserve, too, so ask around your circles to see if there are any near you that do this. Also, a lot of co-working spaces will offer day passes– so you can go visit for a day when you know you’ll have to make a lot of calls without having to make a full commitment price-wise.

  168. TotesMaGoats*

    Fingers crossed for my sister who is in an interview right now. Her current job is so bad that she said even if this position meant working for Satan himself, it would be an improvement. That should tell you enough right there. It’s horrifically toxic. As an example, during annual evaluations, you can’t list as accomplishment like “trained 3000 on new procedures in X days resulting in Y thing” because that’s “other duties as assigned”. It’s utter BS. We’ve been trying to get her out to anywhere but she’s got a perverse loyalty to the people she works with and likes the place she’s at, just not leadership.

  169. Llellayena*

    I’m having a Murphy’s law day and need to vent. I have a deadline today that required printing on special paper and mailing physical copies out by the end of the work day. We’re out of the special paper, late delivery. Local store has paper (yay!). Buy paper, bring back, doesn’t fit in printer (arg!). Now need to send files out to be printed, so not getting them back in time…

  170. .*

    I’m a temp worker who just complained to my manager about a dishonest employee (same level) who seems to be well-liked by most people and is friends with his/her manager (not the same as mine).

    I’m someone who people would go to because they like the quality of my work, but not necessarily the person people would like to have lunch with (that’s the employee I’ve complained about).

    Should I expect my contract to be terminated soon?

    1. fposte*

      It depends on the dishonesty, the complaint, and the company. If they don’t do anything about the dishonesty, do you want to stay?

  171. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I posted last week about my partner waiting on a job offer while still in the interview process with other institutions. He’s finishing up a PhD and on the academic job market. Well, the offer came, and… sigh. It should have made him really happy, but it wasn’t what either of us expected. This is a consulting firm and he interviewed for, say, a Teapot Analyst position with them– pretty high level and very well paid. They called and said they wanted to hire someone else for the Teapot Analyst job but they want him to work for them, so they offered what they’re considering a “kind of post doc” where he would basically consult and do some research for a year and then they would promote him. I asked him what the compensation was, and he said they haven’t even settled on that yet, so there will be another meeting.

    Right after he spoke to the firm, he emailed his contacts at the other institutions and they’re pushing up their timelines for him. I have my fingers so tightly crossed… But there is certainly a chance it will come down to the consulting firm or nothing, and he’s waffling. He would rather have a job than nothing, but we’re both wondering if he’ll be happy at all working at this firm.

    There are other jobs that are opening up that he’s interested in, so now he’s playing with the idea of accepting the consulting firm job but continuing to look for other academic jobs. I very emphatically told him that I believe he should not accept a job in bad faith, but then, I’m not in academia or anywhere close to his field.

    I just hope the government job he really wants comes through and this all becomes a moot point.

    1. Rock Prof*

      From an academic point of view, if he’s hired in a role that’s “kind of post doc,” I think he’s kind of ethically in the clear to keep looking for academic positions. Most academic positions have long hiring windows and sometimes flexible start dates. I’d also assume that a post doc was always looking for something more, so if they offer him a role with that kind of temporary language, I don’t think they should be surprised if he treats it as a temporary thing. Would they actually be surprised by that? I don’t know; I guess that depends how much they work with academics/academic schedules.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        This was exactly what he was saying when we discussed it. :) I’m only wary because the firm has never done this before, and I think their being a consulting firm makes the waters muddier than they would be with an academic post doc. I wonder if he can work that into his negotiations, that if after a year things aren’t quite progressing or if either side deems it a not-great fit, they’ll support him going on the market again.

    2. Overeducated*

      That is frustrating, when you don’t get the job you want and you get offered something that seems lesser it’s understandable to be disappointed. But since they haven’t even discussed compensation, this buys him time to wait and see what other options pan out, or try to negotiate terms that would make it worth his while. My spouse had a similar experience getting an applied “kind of post-doc” via networking, and it took a much longer time from initial verbal offer to concrete offer and start date than I was expecting – I think on the order of a few months. I’ll hope for that for him so that he has time to figure out what the best option is!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Thank you! We are both super frustrated, especially since the original job would have 100% meant we would move together, but this option makes that less feasible.

        The firm sent him an email that basically said they want him to design a job that works for him, so he has a lot of room– though I have advised him not to ask for Jupiter when a moon will do. If this were me, I would be thrilled and it would make things so wonderful, but for him, it feels much less secure than a tenure track position or a government role.

  172. Persephone Mulberry*

    I had a job interview on Thursday! It was with a company I applied to about 6 weeks ago while I was still in temp to perm hell. The job description was light on details so I spent the night before repeatedly telling myself “it’s okay if it doesn’t feel like a good fit, you can turn it down if you want” (apparently 8 months of un/underemployment and the temp to perm hoops for a job I wasn’t sure I wanted but couldn’t afford to turn down messed with my head a bit) but oh my goodness, it’s PERFECT. I’ve spent the past several years applying to different things, trying to hone in on what it is that I want to do as a career, and this is the first job I can think of that I’ve come away thinking “YES, this is the thing I can see myself doing for the next 5-10 years!” The fact that it’s close to home, the money is right and the people seem nice are bonuses.

    They said they have more interviews this week and next week but that they want to make a decision quickly because the role is vacant (the last person decided not to come back from maternity leave) so hopefully I will know more by this time next week.

    3. Ali G*

      Good luck! This is kind of eerily similar to the process by which I got my new job last September…so I am optimistic for you!

  173. DancingDaffodil*

    I work as a grocery stocker and have come up with a system of product rotation that is more efficient than the one my employer tells us to use. The system involves making a chart in a notebook of the products on my aisle, classifying them according to their urgency, and then checking off sections after they’ve been rotated. On separate pages, I make lists of the products I find that are about to expire and color code them by date. My supervisor is supposed to enter those dates into a computer to print out reminders to remove the products when they expire; however, I write more dates than my supervisor can handle entering, so often I just check the book to find those products. I’ve been told I’m the best rotater in the store, and even introduced as such to new supervisors, but not received any written commendation. I have a natural talent for efficiency and organization and I want to get a desk job that lets me use and develop those skills. How do I phrase this rotation system on a cover letter and highlight the fact that it’s proof of my organization/task management skills?

    Also, how do I phrase “I love being efficient” (seriously – it irritates me when things are inefficient)?

    1. MuseumChick*

      I actually think you can use “I love being efficient” or “I have a passion for developing efficient systems”
      in a cover letter.

      As for how to phrase this on your resume maybe something like “Developed product rotation system resulting in X and Y.”

      1. Graciosa*

        If you don’t mind a slight tweak on the resume line, I would go with “optimized” product rotation system resulting in X and Y.

        There are lots of systems that already exist inefficiently in the world, and a lot of value to be generated by improving them.

        1. MuseumChick*

          That’s a great tweak! Something I love about this site is the group editing of scripts etc. It really helps fine tune things like this.

  174. Nynaeve*

    IT just moved out of our building and took the coffee with them, leaving only three packets of decaf. Also, we just found out the coffee service will be discontinued–we will only have a traditional coffee pot.

    The building may go down in flames by the end of the day.

    1. xarcady*

      My sympathies. Last week, we were informed on Tuesday that the coffee supply had dwindled to nothing, and no coffee could be delivered until Thursday. My floor was down to one packet of decaf.

      As a tea drinker, this did not affect me, but observing the various solutions to the problem was interesting–Wednesday was full of grumbling about having to stop for coffee on the way to work, having to make coffee at home to bring to work, having to bring coffee beans into work to make coffee here, having to drink tea instead of coffee, the unfairness of it all that we were out of COFFEE!

      And then when the coffee arrived, it was discovered that we were out of the company-supplied little containers of cream. I will spare you the details, but there were adults having meltdowns in the kitchens and at their desks, long email chains trying to “get to the bottom of the supply crisis,” and the facilities manager was hiding in an unused office two floors from her real office.

      It’s not like we ran out of toilet paper, folks.

        1. valentine*

          If you disrupt my routine, it can take me hours to recall there is milk/creamer in the fridge or down the street. I am trying to figure out if it’s worth it to buy butter-pat packets because I just can’t stay on top of perishables and the restaurant mostly misses out the butter (and often the bread as well).

  175. Ethics Dilemma*

    What would you do?
    My friend is struggling about whether to report a former workplace for labor violations.
    They have multiple examples from their time there of a bunch of different labor violations, both hr and health and safety (non-lethal).
    Since leaving they have heard that working conditions (morale) has improved but the company may still be in violation of things like health and safety notices and lack of legally mandated policies.
    They have the ability to report the company anonymously but if nothing is found it cannot be appealed. If they report it with their name this company is motivated to be vindictively litigious (despite being in the wrong) and my friend is very early in their career.
    Would you report? And why?

    2. Graciosa*

      I would hope that I would (it’s hard to know until you’re in the situation, but I’m not daunted by paperwork). It’s an opportunity to improve the work environment for the people still there by forcing the company to correct some of the issues.

      I’m not that worried about the lack of an appeal – no one is any worse off if nothing changes.

  176. Anonyby*

    Is there any PSA-ish things that you wish you could say to certain people or groups at work but you can’t? I think it would be interesting to hear them!

    1. Anonyby*

      Here’s mine.

      I’d love to tell the escrow companies I deal with to PLEASE send closing packages directed to the commission desk (or at least the company) instead of agents! I need to process them first and even though I train the front desk admins to give things from title companies to me first to check, sometimes they still slip through if they’re addressed to the agent. Most of the agents are honest and bring it to me if they notice it was delivered to them instead, but the bad apples getting theirs before it’s processed make it a huuuuge pain in the rear.

    2. Ladylike*

      I wish people would deal with their insecurities in more constructive ways. I work with several insecure people who insult others, pout, throw fits, or flat out refuse to participate when they’re asked to do work they don’t understand, or when they’re working with someone who happens to have more knowledge about a subject than they do (no, I’m not referring to myself as always being the “more knowledgeable” one – it could be anyone). I have insecurities too, but I try to deal with them in ways that don’t halt progress or offend other people.

    3. Graciosa*

      A well-written contract let’s you sue the other party if they breach it.

      Suing takes a lot of time, effort, and money over multiple years.

      If you don’t think the other party can be trusted, don’t enter into a contract with them in the first place – it’s just not worth it.

      [I admit I have actually said this in the past – usually when someone explains at length how untrustworthy the other party is and demands that I write a contract to “make them” behave. A piece of paper isn’t going to change character.]

    4. merp*

      In a previous job, we had a big group of constituents – we passed through small grants, so these folks were our applicants/awardees. We were a staff of 3 and there were about 700 of them. The rumor mill and escalating panic about grant money/deadlines/related programs used to get so bad that my boss and I would joke about sending emails that just said “STOP TELLING EACH OTHER LIES. We will tell you when we know more!”

      Never did, but it was so tempting.

    5. Triplestep*

      Not in my new job, but in my last job I wanted to tell people to “stay in their lane” every day. That taking on stuff that is not yours and not getting your actual job done (i.e. things I need from you to do MY job) does not make you look as good as you think.

      The problem was that this behavior was typically rewarded. For example, there was one person who was looked at as being totally overworked and so she got a lot of slack for dropping balls and missing deadlines. But a lot of what made her overworked was simply that she left her lane to take on more.

      I’d also want to tell people who had worked there for decades and didn’t know any other ways of doing things that the way they functioned was not universally accepted. Many of them had roles that other companies routinely outsource (i.e. Facilities, Security) and when that happens, all the lane-veering gets reigned in. (Not so coincidentally, I have actually joined a consultancy and one of the things I love about it is that I can stay in my lane, and so does everyone else!)

    6. Washi*

      You don’t need to feel some kind of magical kinship with computers to be good at using them! Just googling the things you don’t know and trying things out instead of going straight to me every time will instantly expand your skills.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would like to tell some people that learning something new might be a nice change for them. I would like to tell one particular person that it’s ok to just ignore something he’s not interested in, because sending an email saying, “I’m not wasting my time on this” is demoralizing and unnecessary.

    8. LGC*

      1) If you’re sending an all staff email, use the BCC field.

      1a) Use the all staff sparingly, and not – say – for meeting room reservations at HQ. (When employees are located all over the state.)

      (I would say something but the admin has been with the organization before I was born and I can’t tell the president he’s bad at email.)

    9. ..Kat..*

      Nurses: wear support hose. I realize your young legs do not need them now, but it is a preventative measure. By the time you realize that you need them, you are just preventing the problem from getting worse. Prevent the problem in its entirety.

      Women: don’t preface a question with “I have a stupid question.” (This is not because I believe there are no stupid questions – there are plenty of stupid questions. I have asked many of them myself.) Every time you preface a question in this way, you are putting yourself down. Be kind to yourself. Believe in yourself. “I have a question…” is fine.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Written communications: whenever you send an email, text, IM, be professional and polite. Assume that the person you would most hate to read it will read it.

  177. Gumby*

    I have a co-worker who is in charge of making teapot handles. He complains that no one ever tells him when or how many teapot handles they will need so he can’t plan anything ever and then they come say they need handles in 20 minutes ignoring that it takes 3 hours minimum for the clay to set much less be fired, painted, glazed, etc. He wants someone to fix that problem for him. He complains to the teapot sculptors. He complains to the clay orderers. He complains to me. He once complained to a teapot designer who had sent him an email regarding handles just a day earlier – not sure if he didn’t read it, read it and found it insufficient, or is just always in the practice of complaining and assuming that no one ever tells him what he needs to know regardless of facts to the contrary.

    It is a legit problem. But I want to scream, “You are in charge. This is YOUR problem to fix. Stop complaining and do something!” Mostly because when he complains to me he’s generally also asking me to give him a heads up when handles might be needed. I do not know enough details about what each batch needs to be able to do that and also it is not my responsibility. I keep an eye on teapot batches but am not involved in the details of the individual parts.

    Once, long ago, I pointed out that by fulfilling the 20-minute lead time requests he is training people that they can keep doing that. There is always an excuse about how they were really, really needed so he bought last-minute fast-setting clay but it’s way too expensive so he really needs more notice but he can’t say no to last minute requests because reasons.

    I’m happy to help him set up a system. But the system cannot be “Gumby will spoon feed me the information” or “teapot designers and sculptors will, by the power of my complaining, magically start communicating in exactly the way and at exactly the intervals I want without me even telling them my preferences.”

    Advice?

    2. nonegiven*

      DH fixed his last minute emergencies.

      Foreman says “I need you to come to [town] and do [thing] today.
      DH has the license and this means he is the only one that can do this.

      DH says “I can fit you in, in 2 weeks. I’ll also need to order the materials.”

      “But, but, but, It will only take [time]” (well, plus travel time an hour in the opposite direction.) “I know you have the materials, I saw them loaded on your truck.”

      “Those are for [job] for the next 3 days, that’s been on my schedule for 3 weeks. BTW, how long have you known you would need me to do [job] this week”

      “A month.”

      A few repeats of this and the foreman would ask, ahead of time, to be scheduled in for the time he needed and the materials.

  178. Rock Prof*

    I have a really ridiculous and minor resume question because I’m one of those 7-page CV academics. One of my research students, undergraduate graduating next year with some actual work experience, is applying for internships and recently asked if he should include the course number if he’s listing relevant course work on his CV.

    My answer was that it’s probably not important, though maybe some person might care about whether it’s upper versus lower level, though often that’s kind of obvious from the course title or description. Like “Intro to Rock Skipping” reads as probably lower level (LLST 101) while “Advanced Rock Skipping” (LLST 401) reads as upper level, regardless of whether the numbers are included. Plus course numbering schemes can vary from school to school and some are just bizarre. At this point in his career, particularly applying to internships geared toward students, I’m assuming that listing some coursework is probably fine in general.

    Am I off-base here, or is what I told him reasonable?

    1. Maya Elena*

      I would say keep numbers off, and editorialize on the names if the title conveys no useful information (but don’t lie of course.
      So if student took “Calculus Taught thru Avant-garde Methods” just put calculus.
      I’d also keep off weird niche courses eith sentence-long names unless they’re directly relevant to the job in question.

      1. Rock Prof*

        That makes sense. Thanks!
        Your second point reminds me of what I tell my research students. They basically get to choose what the course title is for the research credit, so I always tell them to put something that would look relevant to employers or graduate schools but still captures the research. So, there’s a lot of the kind of titles that end up as possibly unwieldy, sentence-long names but always trying to convey a fairly specific point, like “Skipping-Stone Location Mapping” and “Rock Splash Fluid Dynamics.”

    2. nym*

      For internships geared toward students – does he need to include a transcript with the application packet? If yes, I’d be pretty parsimonious about what course information to include in the CV at all.

      (I review application packets for a fellowship that requires CV and transcript. We completely skip the “education” section in the CV and go straight to the transcript when evaluating applicants’ educational experience.)

  179. Kelly*

    I work at a small non-profit and we do performance reviews every year. This year, my boss asked me to come ready to discuss ways we can improve as an organization and as a team. I’m not sure how to provide feedback in this situation. Any advice for critiquing your employer during a performance review?

    1. Graciosa*

      Don’t think of it as critiquing your employer – think of it as an opportunity to demonstrate your value by making useful suggestions for improvements.

      It would be extraordinary for everything your organization and team do to be already perfect. Good organizations know this, so I wouldn’t see this request as fraught with danger unless there’s some additional detail you haven’t included.

      You don’t have to go in with all the answers on how to make the improvement. It’s often possible to say something like, “It seems like we might be able to improve the efficiency of our teapot glazing process when working with multiple coatings. Maybe we could we get a small team of teapot glaziers and coating engineers together for a workshop to brainstorm how to speed up the multi-coating process?”

      Start thinking about what you would ask about or change if this were your business.

    2. Drago Cucina*

      A question I ask all department heads at least once a year is, ‘Without spending money, what one thing can we do to improve service to the public and staff work life?’

      By re-framing it this way, it’s focused on the positive and practical. We get really good tweaks every year and they are usually very easy to implement.

  180. olusatrum*

    I have an interview next Thursday! I’m trying to leave my current job because of about a million reasons, but I’m worried that potential new job might not be much better. I could use some help on good interview questions to ask?

    The main reason I want out of my current job is that it’s a smallish business in a dying field and it really feels like I could be out of a job any day now. Even if this business had a positive outlook, I feel very limited here. Pay is low, we’re not even getting COL increases this year, and last year’s raise was below inflation even though I’m a high performer and we’re in a high COL area. Based on the current hierarchy, I won’t be up for a promotion for several years yet, and though I keep trying, I’m consistently discouraged from gaining any experience on skills needed for any kind of lateral move. I can’t even move around the department to get some distance from frustrating coworkers. Also, it’s just kind of dreary here! Not that perks are a necessity for me, especially if other aspects of the job are great, but we have absolutely nothing available to boost morale and everyone’s miserable all the time.

    So anyway, my interview is at another small business (I can’t find any info on Glassdoor) that handles wireless mobile plans for businesses, which seems… niche? Surely it’s a good sign that they’re currently hiring and not firing, but what questions can I ask about the health of the business (that might actually get me useful answers)? I’m very young – would it reflect poorly on me to ask about perks and having fun at the office? I just really want to avoid working in another dreary grey box, in constant fear of losing my job or my pay, and hitting a ceiling at the whole company in just a year or two.

    1. StellaBella*

      See the link to the interview guide -> over there on the right? Get that and also search the site – there are a lot of good guidance posts here on exactly this.

  181. WalnutSalad*

    I’m curious, I’m in a new position and enjoying it. But one thing that bothered me when searching was salary indications. The vast majority of positions posted had NO salary range noted. And even if you apply, no place to put the desired salary. I would apply, with absolutely no idea if the financials would be even close to my expectation. So first, is it appropriate, ever, to reach out to an employer and ask about a salary range BEFORE applying? And second, why do employers do this? Isn’t it more work for the recruiter to sift through applicants who may be well qualified, but asking more than the allotted salary?

    1. ..Kat..*

      You can research the market for jobs in your living area. For example, if you are in llama herding and the job is in denver, you can research what companies are paying locally for llama herders. In the USA, I believe the DOL publishes ranges of salaries for jobs – this is broader than you want, but gives you a starting place. Glassdoor also allows you to search for X jobs in Y location.

      Do you know people who work at the jobs and/or companies? If so, ask them if they can give you an estimate of what the job might pay.

      While I agree that companies should be more open about pay, this is just not done a lot yet. If you are interviewing for a job that will require multiple interviews, you can ask during the first interview what the salary range is (ask at the end of the interview. If you start the interview with this, you could be seen as only being interested in the money.). This can be trickier with one interview jobs. Just keep in mind, when you ask salary range, the company may turn it around and ask you what you are looking for. So please go into it with a range.

      Pay is cloaked in such secrecy – it shouldn’t be, but it is. Keep in mind that if you are female, women have a history of low-balling themselves. Which is one reason why women continue to make less than men for doing the same work.

  182. Calm Down, Sheldon*

    Just need to vent about something that happened today. I’m currently in the middle of teaching a problem solving course at work. Management has hand-picked some key players who have been “voluntold” to attend my training. It’s a great course and it’s gotten rave reviews from many other people in the past, and at my current company. The training starts out with an ice breaker that is designed to emphasize the importance of team problem solving vs. individual problem solving.

    Well, today Sheldon was one of my attendees. He got 1/4 of the way through the icebreaker activity and refused to finish it because he didn’t have all of the information he needed to accurately answer every question (that was the whole point – no one had all the answers). The activity doesn’t compute correctly at the end if people refuse to complete the individual portion of the exercise, but he dug in his heels, so I had no choice but to proceed without his input. He interrupted me multiple times throughout the rest of the presentation to “prove” that he was already an expert on my subject matter, and – surprise, surprise! – he was often incorrect. At the end of the course, he turned in an evaluation form that he did not complete per the instructions and instead wrote an insult about the ice breaker activity, followed by “I’ve taken this course before.” Essentially, he knows everything about everything and has no need whatsoever for any training ever again.

    I handled him well in class – he may be surprised to know this, but he’s not the first of his kind that I’ve dealt with, and he won’t be the last. He comes across as very intelligent in most conversations, and is a long-time company veteran. I think he’s generally respected. But he was a total jerk and a blowhard in my class. For what it’s worth, I get along with everyone, so this is not a “me” problem.

    Is this worth giving a heads-up to his boss? My personal opinion is that he was rude, dismissive, disruptive, and refused to participate in a training his boss required him to attend, thereby wasting half his workday. Will I look petty if I bring this up? Or should I just chalk him up as a lost cause and forget about?

    1. MuseumChick*

      I don’t see anything wrong with letting them know that this person did not complete the course, which would be true since he refused to participate. As long as you stick to the facts and don’t make it personal. Do you have a meeting with his boss about the training where this would naturally fit? Something like “The training went really well (insert details). Oh, there is one thing, Fergus Ferguson didn’t complete the class. Towards the beginning of the opening exercise he refused to continue to participate.”

    2. StellaBella*

      Definitely – show them the evaluation as well and tell them what happened and how he handled it. He was voluntold to do this, he failed because he chose to be a jerk, the managers need to know this. He needs to correct his behaviours. He failed at that. They need to put him on a plan to improve.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      In addition to the 2 commenters above, you might want to consider starting out that conversation with Sheldon’s boss along the lines of “What outcome from this training were you hoping for, for Sheldon?” My thinking here is that if you start with the framework of Sheldon’s supervisor’s expectations, that gives you some context in which to explain how/where Sheldon did/did not meet those expectations, rather than simply summarizing it: “Sheldon was uncooperative throughout, and failed to complete the work for a portion of the course.”

  183. frastucl*

    This seems like a newer trend, but maybe it’s been happening for awhile. A meeting ends early & the organizer says something like “I’m giving you all ten minutes back.” or “Enjoy those extra thirty minutes.”. What is that about? Most people schedule one-hour meetings. A meeting shouldn’t take exactly one hour just because that’s what was scheduled, right?

    And don’t even get me started on how many meetings are wasteful (too frequent, too long, too many people). Had someone tell me last week that they look forward to the weekend so they can get work done without getting interrupted by meetings. That’s crazy! So why do people think they’re being incredibly gracious by “giving me my time back” as opposed to what? Let’s all sit here & stare at each other until the big hand points to 12?

    1. Ladylike*

      I hear this a lot and I think it’s just a joke. Because your calendar reflects that you’re in a meeting for a full hour, if the meeting ends early, there are now 15 minutes when you’re basically “off the grid” and no one will bother you. That’s how I’ve always taken it.

    2. cat socks*

      People do this all the time at my work place! Especially the “giving back” comment. For some reason, I find it very annoying. I can’t quite figure out why. I think it feels like I need to be thankful to the meeting organizer for releasing me from servitude.

      Luckily, I don’t have too many wasteful meetings put on my calendar. And all my meetings are over the phone, so it is easy to work on other stuff if I don’t need to directly participate on the call.

    3. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      Ugh, yeah I’m not a fan of those comments either. I feel like it’s kinda condescending and weird. Also that comment about the weekend is super demoralizing! I wonder if there’s any room to push back on all these meetings?

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I use this wording sometimes, and I intend it as shorthand for “hey we’re done earlier than I expected, thank you and I will get out of your hair now”. I do schedule meetings for the length I think I need, but sometimes I guess wrong.

      And for the record – there ARE people who will schedule a meeting and regardless if you get done early, you’re not released.

    5. Koala dreams*

      It’s a joke. It’s not supposed to be taken literally, it just means “and that’s all for this meeting, bye bye”. Just like when you say “see you later” to someone, and it doesn’t mean you will be watching them.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      It’s a joke, not literal. Basically the meeting finished earlier than expected and that time can be put to many other uses as you see fit.
      Typically this is heard in companies where lots of back-to-back phone meetings tend to be the norm.

  184. StellaBella*

    Not sure after 1,150 comments anyone will see this but, I had my fourth interview with the role I applied for (this one was with HR) and today it looks like the manager sent emails to my references to set up calls next week so fingers crossed on a new job next week! :) It’s been a long process that started with application in December!

  185. Not My Usual Name*

    There is a newish co-worker, who I don’t really know, but other people in my team do. They remarked on her odd behaviour, asking the men at work to go for lunch together, but not the women, and telling everyone about her pole dancing hobby. From what I gather, the lunches started off normally, then veered towards inappropriate.

    She has been asking to connect on social media, and now my female team mate has started receiving very explicit photos on her smartphone feed, which are sent to everyone odd-co-worker is connected with.

    I looked through the archives to see if Alison has dealt with something similar before, and whilst I don’t think it affects odd-co-worker’s job, the whispers have started going around.

    Any ideas people?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      disconnect on social media for one, and anytime odd coworker veers towards inappropriate, call it out. But really, odd coworker may be headed towards a meeting with HR.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I’d say that female coworker already has a reason to go to HR, if she’s being sent explicit photos.

        1. LilySparrow*

          If they aren’t being sent directly to her but are just popping up in a social media feed, then it’s a different conversation.

          1. valentine*

            I would tell my supervisor, who would probably want to discuss professional behavior and reputation with her.

  186. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I haven’t even been at this job for three months yet. I’m sitting in a separate office, off the main floor. (My manager sits in here and it’s easiest to train me this way.) Today, someone told me that whenever I come out they assume I’m spying on them and reporting back to the other managers.

    This…….is not true. I’m rarely paying attention to what they’re saying. I’m focused on heating up my lunch. Or refilling my water bottle. Or sorting out my to-do list in my head.

    I’ve been friendly with everyone. Making small talk when our paths cross. Chit chatting throughout the day. Saying hello. Looking at wedding pictures. Participating in office events. Helping to clean up after we cater in lunch.

    I’m guessing it’s just someone trying to stir up drama. But it hurts. And has left me feeling REALLY small.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Yeah, sounds like a Drama Llama. I highly doubt anyone else in the office feels that way. If it makes you feel better anytime you see this co-worker just picture them with a llama face to remind yourself not to take them seriously.

      1. Nanc*

        Or carry a little notebook and pretend to be jotting notes–be sure to sport a super-smug smile. [don’t do this–Museum Chick has good advice!]

      2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        It could also point to a culture problem that you’re not yet aware of. I’ve worked several places where people were suspected of spying…and there was a history of people doing exactly that, spying and tattling to the managers, or the managers ordering other people to spy for them, etc.

    3. foolofgrace*

      If they’re going to think you’re a spy anyway, I’d start by not helping to clean up anymore.

  187. Bone!*

    I had an interview the other day for a job that is way out of my league and would be huge jump in both pay and responsibilities for me. I think it went pretty well, but I told myself it’s not going to happen and to put it out of my mind. Now if I’m honest I mean yeah, of course I can’t help but hope. I just now realistically it’s likely to go to one of the other candidates with more experience.

  188. Alone at the front!*

    I have a question about front desk coverage. I work in a busy office where there are normally two assistants at the front desk and one intern. Our interns don’t come in on Fridays and sometimes the other staff assistant is out. On days like that, it’s very difficult to answer the phones, tend to meeting arrivals, and I’m also unable to leave the desk without coverage to complete other tasks and even use the bathroom/go to lunch.

    Is there a good way to approach management about this? There are about 6 more junior level employees who could be helpful even if they just popped in for fifteen minutes every hour or so. How do I tell my manager that I need help with coverage on days like these so I can go to the bathroom? I can sometimes ask one or two people who have been helpful before with this, but I don’t want to ask them every time this happens. A medication I’m on makes me pee frequently (lol TMI) so it would nice to have a set plan when this stuff happens!

    1. MuseumChick*

      I think you could approach it like this “Can we discuss a plan for desk coverage on Friday’s? I’m finding the current way untenable.” You can explain the issue and and offer a solution “Would it be possible to have someone like Jane or Mary serve as a backup on Fridays?”

    2. V*

      Can someone physically sit near you even though they aren’t doing the same job who can tend to any guests that come thru when you’re in the bathroom? At my last job a co-worker and I did this even though she was more of the admin and I wasn’t at all, but it meant she never had to worry about bathroom breaks because I could let someone in when she was up.

      1. Alone at the front!*

        The front office and the rest of the offices are separated by the conference room so people can’t really see in unless they’re trying to – but I appreciate the suggestion!

    3. Always the Middle Child*

      I think you can offer two solutions to the problem when you talk to your manager.
      1. Manage expectations that when you’re there solo, 100% coverage is not possible and you want to make sure they are okay with that, or;
      2. Offer up the solution you’ve suggested – some coverage from coworkers.

      It’s totally reasonable and honestly your manager probably may not be realizing there’s an issue. Just phrase the problem very succinctly and remember….you’re not asking if you can go to the bathroom! You’re asking how he/she wants to handle the gaps in coverage (“Most Fridays, I am the sole person at the front desk. I wanted to get some clarity on how to best ensure coverage when I use the bathroom or take my lunch. Are you okay with the front desk being unoccupied during those times? We could ask a few coworkers to help out…”).

      1. Alone at the front!*

        Thank you for the suggestions! There’s a high volume of meetings throughout the day so they don’t really want the front to be without an assistant. I’ll ask my manager if we can work on putting together a better system for coverage. I’m sure they just aren’t thinking about how tough it can be for one person to manage the front alone :)

        1. valentine*

          If you’re only in the bathroom a couple of minutes, can you create a waiting area with seating and leave a sign at the desk that says “Back in 3 minutes”? (No 5, 10, or multiples thereof.) Or have a whiteboard showing which room each meeting’s in, so guests can see themselves there.

    4. Psyche*

      If there are multiple interns, why are all of them out on Friday? Is it possible that their schedules could be modified so that at least one is in on Friday to help with coverage?

    5. ..Kat..*

      Talk to your manager. “Lack of adequate front desk coverage on Fridays is giving our company’s visitors and callers a bad first impression of us.” Then suggest ideas. Maybe the six junior employees can work Fridays in rotation?

  189. Hidden Trout*

    Had a terrific interview on Tuesday with a company I’d love to work with. Hiring manager wrote an email saying “let’s talk at the end of the week,” so I’m nervously twitching and waiting and as each hour passes, I’m getting more nervous. Two other phone screen interviews should be getting back to me today or early next week if I’m moving forward, but neither job is as appealing to me, nor as good a fit for my skills. My profession has a very limited hiring window (90% gets done Feb-April each year) and my particular llama wrangling specialty is rare enough that the openings in a given year are rare. Bleargh!

    I will say this–without AAM and all the terrific advice here, I wouldn’t have been able to handle the interview half as well. Thanks all!

    1. Hidden Trout*

      Ah! Heard back! Turns out my finalist interview was the first one they did. They have a few others to go…
      Now I have to put my energy into my other applications, and shoo this one to the corner of my mind.

  190. Penny Hartz*

    I’m low-key job hunting, and as such, am keeping an eye on who has looked at my profile in LinkedIn. In the section where they note “Search terms your searchers use,” or whatever, it said: Registered Massage Therapist.
    Now, not only have I never been a Registered Massage Therapist, I don’t think any of those three words–Registered, Massage, or Therapist–appear ANYWHERE in my profile, even separately.

    1. Slartibartfast*

      I had similar issues on LinkedIn. I was in veterinary medicine, got all sorts of automotive, manufacturing, and trucking search suggestions. Artificial intelligence can be pretty dumb.

  191. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    So the job search officially begins! I have about five months before my service year ends, and I just submitted my first resume/cover letter. Right now trying to enjoy the rest of my fellowship as much as I can and not worry too much about any given job application, but the uncertainty of what’s going to happen next does get to me every now and then. I have lots of friends and family who are in the same boat, though, so we can all commiserate when things don’t go well and celebrate when things do.

  192. softcastle mccormick*

    Does anyone have any encouragement concerning a manager/now coworker who denied a reference request?

    A former manager and I were promoted higher up and to separate departments in the same company a little over a year ago. This person and I had a fabulous working relationship, and I always respected him for his professionalism and work ethic. Though our departments and locations are different (but within the same city), we collaborate fairly frequently, as he is the project manager for our new order management system, and I do a lot of back-end processes with the system for my position. Recently, after a new “campaign” was released, I identified a very sizable error that he was responsible for, and which caused significant backflow issues and would have severely disrupted inventory and reporting. After contacting him about it multiple times and receiving only the response “Just be patient,” I finally went to our department manager with my concerns. In short, it was a huge error that urgently needed to be corrected, and I was very prudent to bring it up, and was praised the department for my attention to detail.

    Fast forward to recently. There is an internal promotion I have applied to because it is a great opportunity to advance my careers using the back end knowledge I’ve gained working on this system. I reached out to a department head I work with closely, a former manager, and this coworker, for references. All of these other people have offered up simply glowing letters, but he refused, saying he didn’t know enough enough about the new job (which I described in detail) to put his reference on the line for me.

    I’m struggling not to take it really personally, even though I know nobody is ever obligated to write a letter of recommendation. This manager has experience with my work in both my old position under him and the new one where we are coworkers, and would be a valuable player to have on my team, so to speak. To me, it feels like a personal slight, and I fear our working relationship has become irreparably damaged by me catching what in truth would have been a disastrous error if I had indeed “just been patient.” The frustrating part of this situation is that my attention to detail in that situation is precisely what the desired position requires. Am I crazy for feeling disappointed?

    1. Always the Middle Child*

      It’s unfortunate but I feel like it may be one of those situations where it is what it is. You only have speculation as to why he denied the request, so you almost have to take his excuse at face value. If you have the right relationship, you could be frank with him and dig further – but it sounds like you may not, and ‘accusing’ him of lying or having other motives is going to make things worse.

      He may just have a different impression of you after ‘mistake gate’ and you can’t control that. It sounds like you did do the right thing – though maybe for next time, giving him a head’s up that you were escalating would have helped smooth things over (or talking to him after to say “Sorry – I know you said to be patient but my team had to be notified / were asking about it.”). He may feel, justified or not, that you tattled on him.

      As for your reference, I think you just have to move on. It sounds like you have a great line-up already – omitting one person isn’t going to ruin your chances. Best of luck!

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        Yes, this is great advice. I’m definitely not digging deeper–I sent a gracious response thanking him for his time. I’m just feeling kind of sore about it.

        It’s funny about the escalation in the first place–I could tell he was upset that I escalated it, but my department head was actually a little frustrated with me that I hadn’t escalated it to her sooner. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t I guess. Sigh.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          The thing is, once he knew about it HE should have escalated it. He could have had all the control of that narrative if he’d done what he should have. Especially if it was going to cause (or already causing) the kind of issues you describe. You gave him the opportunity to own the discovery, the escalation, and the fix (and the communication of the timeline of the fix). He just didn’t do it; and he made whatever solution he was working on so opaque it looked like nothing was happening on a critical issue. So he doesn’t really get to be frustrated that you did the right thing.

          Next time (hopefully there isn’t one), you can let your manager know immediately as a “heads up, I found this thing and I’ve alerted X to the problem and he’s handling it. Just wanted to keep you in the loop.” Then your manager knows right away, and you can keep manager updated if you don’t see action.

          Basically – you did the right thing. He’s being kind of a butt. Sorry :(

    2. ..Kat..*

      Better no reference than a bad reference. You did what you needed to do. Can you go to this person’s old manager for a reference?

  193. Always the Middle Child*

    First time poster here. Anyone have advice on how to deal with your manager always wanting you to do the work together when your grand-boss has asked you not to? Background is that I am very close with my manager and our skills complement each other really well. I consider myself to be stronger in strategy, and have been identified on my larger team (40+ people) as a thought leader and top performer when it comes to building recommendations, powerpoint presentations, etc. My manager is also highly regarded though it’s not clear to me if her managers would necessarily label her as strategic or not. She does have years of experience and she’s very strong in a number of areas, and has years of experience ahead of me.

    However, there have been a few instances now where my grand-boss has asked me to ensure my manager and I are not duplicating efforts and aren’t working together on deliverables when we should be doing it separately. Each team my grand-boss has asked this, she has said she would also mention it to my manager (she also once said that she needed to see the strategic ‘chops’ from my manager too (too as in, in addition to my own).

    I have no problem with this and generally do better thinking through a task on my own and then sending it up the chain for review / add-ons. However, I feel like my manager either is ignoring or hasn’t gotten the message because she keeps reverting back to “let’s sit down and do it together” or “can we whiteboard this?”. She’ll offer to do this on my deliverables where it’s easy to decline (“Do you mind if I take a pass first and then walk you through it?”) but it’s harder when she’s directing that this be done on deliverables she is leading. The motivation is unclear – she may be very pro-delegation, is managing her time on projects as she sees fit, or is leaning on me to do the heavy-lifting in areas she may not be comfortable with.

    Any tips on how to navigate this as the junior person getting stuck in the middle? Getting time with my grand-boss is super tough (even grabbing her for a few mins is hard) but any scripts that would work for convos with both of them would be great. Thank you!

      1. valentine*

        Why can’t you tell her grandboss said to do it separately? And, even then, does he know what you did or is her review muddling authorship?

    2. ..Kat..*

      Tell grandboss that boss is insisting on doing the work as a team (I recommend that you email grandboss that you need to talk with her for 5 minutes about her directive). (Don’t put anything in writing that can bite you in the ass later.) Grandboss is putting you in a difficult position by not clearly telling your manager (and following up) on what she wants done.

  194. BeepBeepRibbyRibby*

    Long time reader, first time commenter. Mostly I just need to vent, I think.

    I’ve been job searching for a few months, ever since it has become clear that my new boss is absolutely the wrong fit for our company (also, this place is a mess in general, but at least my old boss knew how to hold the BS at bay).

    A recruiter reached out to me through LinkedIn for a senior position that, on paper at least, was perfectly in line with my skills. I don’t know how I missed the posting as I would have definitely applied on my own, but I was grateful that she contacted me. She indicated up front that if she thought I was not the right fit, she would let me know at the end of the call. We ended up having a lovely conversation (even though she was 20 minutes late and it sounded like she was eating the whole time) and she asked me to forward her my official resume ….to her Comcast email account, instead of the company one. Fine, I thought; she had explained that she had some sort of quasi-contractor relationship with the company and maybe wanted to get some sort of finder’s fee from them.

    She had also indicated that she would confirm receipt of the email. Even though I sent it within five minutes of ending our call, no response. Fine fine, I thought; she seems very busy.

    She was meeting with the President of the company at the end of that week (this was a Tuesday and they were meeting on a Friday) to go over resumes, mine included. She indicated that no matter what, I would hear the following week about my candidacy. Refreshing, I thought; if they didn’t like me, I wouldn’t just be ghosted, as is far too common in the hiring world.

    I heard nothing the following week. Nor the week after. Three weeks after our call, I reached out on LinkedIn (where she first contacted me) and sent a friendly note letting her know I was still interested and inquiring if she had any updates. She looked and my profile AND DID NOT RESPOND.

    I’m feeling very petty today and want to either A) apply through the proper channels so that maybe someone else at the company will see my resume or B) write a Glassdoor review, even though it would be pretty clear it came from me.

    I know I shouldn’t, but…yeah.

    1. Always the Middle Child*

      You should DEFINITELY do Option A but DEFINITELY NOT Option B. You even say it yourself – this happens and it doesn’t feel great…but ghosting is a thing in the recruitment process. I think a few of your observations indicate this person is flaky (20 mins late is VERY late, eating on the call without acknowledging it is very rude). You should absolutely apply through proper channels and I wouldn’t even mention that you applied a different way. Either this woman is so scatter-brained she’ll forget (or maybe she didn’t realize she gave you the wrong email address) OR maybe you aren’t right for the role (or there are stronger candidates) – at least you tried.

    3. irene adler*

      Option A. Only, re-do your resume a bit.
      I bet she either was turned away with your resume (unlikely, but it happens) or she and the president could not come to terms on ‘finder’s fee’. So she walked away with your resume. And she’s not gonna get back to you on this.

      If they did see your resume and turned it down, there’s a good chance they won’t recognize a new, somewhat re-done resume from you. Happened to me. I submitted my resume to a job. No response. They then went to a recruiter who wrote and posted his own ad for the position. I responded. I did not know this was for the same position.

      Recruiter re-did my resume (mostly tightening; some reorganization of my job duties, font change). They loved it! I got to the second interview. Probably would have been offered the job too. Long story short, the CEO was ‘creepy’. So I withdrew.

      Anyway, the HR person, as we were talking, told me that they were so impressed with the recruiter’s candidate finds. They had had no luck when they ran an ad for the position.

      She then mentioned that my resume looked “familiar”. It was then that I realized this was the same job that I had applied to directly. I played dumb and just said “oh, that’s interesting”. She did not directly ask me if I’d applied to their ad.

  195. Introvert girl*

    I have a dilemma. My boss is asking all coworkers to write fake reviews on our website about the products we sell. I really have a moral problem with this and know it will hurt the company in the long run. How do I react to this in a polite but firm manner without being fired?

    1. Autumnheart*

      I’d go straight to HR for this. You’re being asked to do something unethical that will misrepresent your products to customers.

    2. irene adler*

      I couldn’t write a review of a product I haven’t used.
      But, I could write an honest assessment of a product I have used. Sure, it’s stacking the deck, given that you work there, but at least you’d write an honest review of the product. If that’s not acceptable, then does this mean your boss wants you to intentionally lie about the product? He needs to realize that lying becomes a slippery slope. Not in any way suggesting you are of poor character; just want to plant an idea in boss’ head. Is he good with that? He’ll have to make sure the lies don’t go beyond the product reviews.

    3. DCR*

      Unless you’re disclosing your affiliation with the company, it’s illegal. The FTC has some good guidance about this on their website. If you think you manager doesnt know this, i would push back with something like isn’t it illegal to leave false reviews? If you think they know but are ignoring it, I’d call HR or an ethics hotline if you have one.

  196. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I’m a new hire encountering an odd scenario. I have a manager who assigns me to team X boss’s group. Manager tells me to work on Y. Team X boss says no–Y does not need tasking; work on A and B instead. And so on. Basically, my manager is telling me to work with another team lead doing something, but team lead always says no, work on something else. Fundamental disconnect? I’ve never encountered this in my life.

    What’s happening here? (Work is otherwise slow, and at times very easy, but it may pick up a bit in the coming months. Also they like my writing to the point team X boss wants me to organize training sessions around them to other people)..I think that’s a good thing(?)

    1. irene adler*

      Have you brought this disconnect to the attention of both Team X boss and your manager? Might be that manager is not aware of all the facts regarding task Y that Team X boss knows.
      This happens with my boss- and he’s the Smartest Man in the Whole World(TM).

      Otherwise, you are caught in the middle of a (ahem!) ‘pissing contest’ between your manager and Team X boss. You’ll need to find a way to get out from the middle of this. You have to get out of being the messenger when you go to Team X with the assignment of doing task Y. Ask your manager to speak directly to Team X boss about the necessity of completing task Y. Get busy with other tasks such that there’s no time to do task Y.

      1. valentine*

        Get busy with other tasks such that there’s no time to do task Y.
        Would you tell your boss you don’t have time to do what they ordered you to do?

        Clarify chain of command with manager. Do they want you or X boss to tell them Y doesn’t need doing? Are they happy for X boss to boss you about or does manager want to rescind the Y order and approve A or B prior to you getting started, or to assign you elsewhere?

  197. Finally some good news*

    I might have finally gotten a job in my field! They’ve made me an offer contingent upon passing the background check and drug screening, neither of which should be a problem. I’m in an extremely competitive field and have been job hunting since last summer. I’ve made it to the final round of interviews so many times and had pretty much lost hope at this point. But it turns out I was their first choice *and* they offered me a much higher salary than I was expecting, because of my related experience in another field. Maybe I just have no self-esteem at this point, but I really never thought I’d be anyone’s first choice or that anyone would really value the work I did. I’m just really happy right now, and grateful for all of the advice I’ve gotten on here. Thanks, Alison, and thank you, commenters!

    1. Hidden Trout*

      This is fantastic! Congratulations to you, and what a relief to be out of the job hunt at last!

    3. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Hoping to hear a great update very very soon…. sounds like a long haul. GOOD news, and don’t let the self-esteem haunt your next steps…. you can do this!!!

  198. Positive Reframer*

    The last few months haven’t been my most engaged or productive at work. Next week we have one-on-ones (kinda quarterly in their frequency) and I want to address it but i’m not sure how to frame it. Mostly because I’m not sure how to fix it.

    Basically, I’ve been doing the minimum and there is lots that I could be and should be doing. Any ideas?

  199. anonymous for this...*

    Just need to vent (since my son vented all over me). He went to work for a company with a brand identity and culture of compassion/friendliness. Think health care/greeting cards/gifts sorts. He has in-demand computer skills and only accepted the job based on having the ability to work at home when needed due to being the caretaker for his grandmother. The company has always had very flexible work at home policies, so that wasn’t an issue, even when my son switched to a team that is generally in the office more than most.

    This has been a rough winter (to say the least) and there have been multiple snow days (school/government offices closed, pleas to stay off the roads), so last week (ice/snow/please stay off roads) my son and several others called in to say they were working from home. The new manager asked them to all make it into work as soon as possible. Road conditions being as they were, it took one poor person 3 hours to drive to the downtown area in a midwestern city. My son only lives about 10 miles out, so it only took an hour and a half. The meeting was so the manager could reprimand everyone for their “unprofessionalism” in working from home or being late on days with bad weather. His (never before stated) expectations were that everyone would be at work, on time, regardless of weather, and if not, then it comes out of personal time off, no more working at home. His honest expectation was that you should be aware of all possible delays BEFORE the work day starts, and plan accordingly so you aren’t late.

    Since my son had negotiated his work at home (again, part of the company culture) as part of his employment, the manager met with him at the end of the day (after he filed a complaint with HR) to state that my son didn’t have to meet the new expectations. But this manager single handedly destroyed all the goodwill that the company had built up, and my son is now looking to switch teams or find other employment. And the ‘grapevine’ has it that the whole reason was that the manager had an issue with ONE person, and chose to insult everyone on the team instead of talking to that person.

      1. valentine*

        Your son should calm down, step back, and honestly evaluate his situation. Doesn’t he have a has a pretty good thing going? We see a lot on here that people need to hire caregivers in order to truly work from home, but it seems like he must be working longer hours, but shorter stretches, because he’s caregiving during the hours the office is open. Whatever it is, it’s uncommon, no? He can be slower to follow petty orders and to set boundaries around his ability to go into the office. Maybe the manager would’ve been fine with a reminder that he works from home.

        And you can eliminate or limit your venting audience time.

        1. anonymous for this...*

          To be clear, “caregiver” just means being able to take her to the occasional appointment and work from home if NECESSARY. Usually his grandmother is quite self sufficient, and soon should be able to drive again. There are multiple family members in the area, and everyone helps.
          But for someone fairly new in his career (this is his first job out of college, he’s been with the company for several years now) to be told suddenly he, and everyone else, were unprofessional for doing exactly what everyone else at the company did, well, I think that was fine to vent about. :) And he did go to HR right after the meetings he already had scheduled (and was the only one actually in the office for, all other departments skyped in from home because of the weather, so I’m sure it was a hot topic of conversation the next day as people heard about this weirdness.) So I think he handled it fine.

          I just thought this manager managed to hit so MANY of the things that pop up here that it would be worth posting. I did try to get him to write to Alison, but he doesn’t really need the advice, he’s got job offers from other companies right now and can change jobs whenever he desires. He was mostly venting because some of the assistants were crying after this meeting and he was more upset by that because they CAN’T push back as easily.

    2. LGC*

      I’d like to discuss your son’s manager.

      In December of this year.

      Underneath a poll that lists him as “the boss who forced his employees to come in during a snowstorm so he could yell at them about attendance.”

      But seriously, that is VERY newbie manager. (The group reprimands for one person’s error, not forcing your employees to come into the office just so you could power trip.)

      1. anonymous for this...*

        Agreed! But I’m not directly involved, so it’s a bit, err, hearsayish to put on one of the polls. And sadkt we’ve usually got people directly involved with much more horrific things by then.

        I just couldn’t get over valuing time spent in the office chairs over people’s lives. The weather really was that bad (and my son totalled his car in an accident not over a month ago, wasn’t even late to work the next day (just bruises)). And it is SO contrary to the public values of the company!

  200. NotaPirate*

    Anyone have scripts for not being comfortable eating in front of others? Usually can go take lunch off on my own. Weekly meeting is now deliberately moving to be during lunch and its suggested everyone pack their lunch those days so we can save time and eat during it. Im okay being surrounded by others eating. I just want to still take time to go eat alone.

    1. LilySparrow*

      I wouldn’t say anything up front, but just eat on a short break earlier/later, bring a drink and do the work part.

      If anyone comments you can say, “I already ate,” or “I’m not hungry this time of day, you go ahead.”

      2. NotaPirate*

        Not the workers. I personally think a lunch break is really useful in terms of productivity. Lets my brain reset a little.

        “But now work can be non-stop with no pesky people needing time to eat!” -bosses, probably

  201. Autumnheart*

    Have you put some thought into why that might be the case? Are you bored? Feel like you’re in a rut? Need more direction? Low vitamin D?

    2. Positive Reframer*

      There was a big transition in my role right before the busiest time and during that I had one key job function that I was learning while doing and was priority 1. After that project ended I have had trouble getting in gear with picking up the other things that were undone. Also new very competent coworker maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome then add in the loooonngg winter.

  202. New HR Tophat*

    I’m at a startup and recently acquired the HR hat in addition to my other roles. I’m vaguely familiar with HR, know enough to get by with a bunch of googling, but am feeling a little lost as I’ve been thrown in the deep end. Any webinars/seminars/companies that you folks would recommend as a good Intro to HR?
    I am intensely grateful that I’ve spent years lurking through here and have at least some managerial/HR context on how to handle things, and how not to handle things.

  203. 653-CXK*

    653-CXK’s job update:

    1. No word lately from the interview earlier this month…but I did read they are kinda-sorta slow (and thorough!) so I’m going to bide my time. I assume they contacted my supervisor(s) and are waiting for other candidates to interview, but hopefully I’ll hear from them soon.

    2. I went on an interview today on the other side of town from ExJob. They seem good, but they’re just starting to interview, so it’ll be awhile before I hear from them.

    1. 653-CXK*

      Great news on the job front…I will probably mention this again on the Friday open thread, but this couldn’t wait.

      I contacted the hiring manager today because I wanted to now what the status was. The hiring manager called me – the hold up was one of my supervisors.

      Then I got the good news I’ve been waiting to hear: I GOT HIRED! My start date hasn’t been determined yet, but the long 9+ month wait is over! (If you’re a New York Rangers fan, recall Sam Rosen and the 1994 Stanley Cup call…)

      Again, I’ll bring this up again on the Friday thread, but I’m beyond pleased to join this new company.

  204. Aiguillette*

    I just had the flip side of a situation posted about this week–Men not meeting in a restaurant or alone with co-workers/people they supervise.

    We have university student workers assigned to us. During orientation I generally have them sit in chairs at my L-shaped desk so they can complete paperwork and I can review schedules, payroll procedures, etc. I had a young man and a young woman (remember college age) come in. The young man sits in the chair I point to. The young woman sits in a different chair about 4 feet away. She commented that she cannot be that close to a man who isn’t a relative.

    Her major is in a medical field where she will be working with men and touching them. Her training in our department will primarily be done by men. I’m not sure how well this is going to go.

    1. Notthemomma*

      Please provide updates on this as the semester progresses. I’m fascinated with how people navigate these scenarios that are so out of the norm to me.

    2. LGC*

      I don’t know whether it’s so different, though – it still has the same effect.

      I’d really wonder HOW things are going to work – did she specify why she couldn’t sit so close to the young man, and what her boundaries were?

      1. Aiguillette*

        Hopefully good updates. She didn’t offer any explanation and unfortunately I didn’t have a chance to follow up in private. So far much of her training has been web based. We will see what next week brings.

        1. LGC*

          Hm.

          Actually, I read this post again, and I got so hung up on guessing why she might have that hangup, I missed the major part of your story: she still sat in the meeting, just not next to the guy. She didn’t say that she couldn’t be around a man she was unrelated to full stop, just that she didn’t feel comfortable sitting right next to him. So…she might be fine in your program, actually. (I’m guessing that you’re in an area where this is unusual, so I hope she’s fine for her sake.)

          I think that the kindest thing to do would be to (discreetly) ask if she’s all right with being trained by men, and go from there. And to let the people training her know to respect her personal space. (Which they should anyway, but if you picked up on her behavior, others might as well.) And if she insists on having her training done by a woman…how hard would it be to arrange that?

          As for her academic career, that’s something I wouldn’t worry about – partly because it’s not necessarily your job (it doesn’t sound like you’re her advisor), and partly because…well, you don’t have all that information. (Who knows, she might go into gynecology, which does not involve much physical contact with men at all.)

          1. Approval is optional*

            If the LW asks her if she’d all right being trained by men and she says no, what is the LW going to do? The Dept can’t rush out and reorganise, recruit female staff, give her an exemption for subjects or so on. I imagine it would be very difficult to arrange her training be done by a woman in most medical fields- medical/medical adjacent school faculty demographics skew to the male (in my experience) so even if they wanted to allocate her only female faculty they probably couldn’t (not saying the should if they could mind you).
            I would work on the assumption that the student is aware of the necessity to be ‘near’ men during her training and in her future professional life, but didn’t see a meeting as a necessary (and therefore acceptable?) time to bend her rule.

            1. LGC*

              But Aiguillette didn’t say her training staff was ALL male, just MOSTLY male. Which implied to me that there were already some women on staff. I’m not expecting her to recruit a new female staff member for this woman, but if the young woman has a strong preference and can be paired off with minimal disruption, great! (And if she doesn’t have a strong preference, well…I think you can ask in a way that doesn’t hurt.)

              It’s a little thorny because I did have suspicions as to why she’d behave like that (basically, religion/culture forbids it). But if that’s the case and her restrictions are significant, I’d ask someone more equipped to handle that situation. (It would be the same if it was a personal objection instead.)

              1. Approval is optional*

                The problem is that faculty aren’t usually ‘interchangeable’ – you will have faculty who are specialised in an area in medical/med adjacent programs (and other programs of course). So, for example, if all the dermatologists who conduct lectures/pracs are male, then it’s a male or nothing. And if you choose nothing, you don’t graduate.
                I’m all for making reasonable accommodations, but I don’t think this falls under the reasonable umbrella.
                And what about male students; there will be more close contact with other students than there will be with faculty, so would you suggest she be asked if she’d rather not ‘study’ with them? It isn’t reasonable to be expected to place her in an all female student group for placements – other students will have placement preferences based on their future career aspirations and it isn’t reasonable,or fair, to prevent a male student doing a placement that he ‘needs’ because he’s male; nor is it reasonable to be required to ensure her group (if it was all female) never joins another group with male students to, as an example, take part in a ward round which will entail crowding together in a small space around a patient.

                1. LGC*

                  I think we’re working under different assumptions, and I’m not sure which is correct.

                  I read this like OP runs a work/study program (like, at the student bookstore or something), and this job isn’t related to the student’s course of study (and whoever trains her is a bit more interchangeable). Correct me if I have this wrong but you’re seeing that this is more like an internship (or something that is relevant), right?

              2. Aiguillette*

                It’s correct that this isn’t in her field of study. The student’s area is more like respatory therapy (not it, but it’s definitely not gender specific). The trainers would be primarily one of two men and a woman when they aren’t available. To have the woman be the primary trainer would severely cut into the her (staff) other responsibilities and a major change of schedule.

                During her training she’ll need to sit next to them so they can train her on the system, resources, what to do when someone makes a request, etc. Fortunately for all the training will take place in an open room with others about. I’m hoping this will make easier for all.

                1. LGC*

                  Okay so – I’d just be transparent with her about that, and go from there. It doesn’t sound like it’ll be a major issue, hopefully. Good luck!

          2. ..Kat..*

            I would not ask if she is okay being trained by men. Instead, I would ask how she will deal with male instructors, patients, etc. This puts the onus on her to solve her own problem.

            1. LGC*

              Eh, as Aiguillette noted, her program isn’t even in her field of study, which is why I said that wasn’t a concern for her. (YMMV.)

              I actually think you’re right on the framing – that is, she should present this as the usual situation and go from there. I’m not a lawyer, obviously, but I think that presents it in a way that’s not problematic.

          3. valentine*

            she might go into gynecology, which does not involve much physical contact with men at all.
            Except medical staff, patients and their family or support people, and caregivers. And it’s not just contact, but proximity, even while chaperoned. Is it just sitting? Can she stand in a two-foot-wide hallway and have a discussion with a man? Does she have to move if one sits or stands too close? Does unrelated man mean people who ID as men, have particular genitalia, or were AMAB?

    3. M*

      It’s worth noting that for a *lot* of people from cultural traditions that place stricter lines between men and women, those lines are circumstantially flexible. For example, a female doctor from a cultural/religious background that requires her to avoid physical contact with men *in general* will often be considered exempt from that norm by her religion/culture/herself when in the context of providing patient care.

      She knows what her major is and she’s presumably *had* male teachers – and fellow students – before. I doubt she’s going to be surprised that being a medical student requires her to treat male patients. She’ll have come to her own accommodations with her values about that, and I really doubt she’s expecting you to arrange her teaching staff around her for her – if she was under that illusion, she’s presumably have mentioned it explicitly by now, for one.

      What might well be worth doing is pulling her aside, noting that you noted her requirement to avoid proximity with male non-relatives, letting her know that the primary trainers are male, and making sure you’re both on the same page about expectations – e.g. that at times trainers will need to be able to look at the computer screen she’s working on, or show her things on it. She’s likely to already have a good sense of what accommodations might be mutually required – but if there are things that would be useful for you to do (e.g. pre-brief teaching staff to avoid initiating physical contact), that might still be useful.

  205. QuickQuestion*

    If a job app asks, “Are you bilingual?” and the only options are “Yes” and “No” – what level of bilingual does that mean? Like, completely fluent? Could get by talking to someone speaking that language without making a total ass of yourself? Clearly it’s not “I can introduce myself and ask where the bathroom is,” but … where is the line? I don’t want to lie, but I also don’t want to say “no” if that excludes me from consideration. (FWIW, I’m the 2nd category where I can talk to someone but not translate a legal document or anything like that.)(The job is not legal in nature – just dealing with various parties that may speak another language.)

    1. Psyche*

      I would take it to mean “Can you act as translator in a pinch.” If you speak well enough to get by at work in that language if necessary (even if it is not ideal) then I would check yes. If not, then no. You can always explain more in the interview.

      1. QuickQuestion*

        That’s what I’m hoping – and I can brush up on it quickly (actually just bought a book to help me to do) because I don’t want to be dismissed from the pile if that’s what a “no” does. I also pick up languages pretty quickly and have found that my soft skills of picking up on non-verbal cues goes a long way. Thank you for replying.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I think you can say yes if you can comfortably carry on a conversation in a second language. More than this and they are looking for an interpreter/translator. If they want the latter, they should specify.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Note – I am in healthcare, and in recent training my company made a big deal about the difference between someone who is bilingual (can speak a second language) and someone who is a trained interpreter. Just FYI.

    2. Rainy days*

      I think the intending meaning is probably, “Could you perform the job tasks in another language?” Which would definitely require a very different type of language proficiency if one is bartending vs. writing technical manuals.

      If your language skills are at the “just chatting” level, that may or may not be relevant or useful depending on the target population. My husband has conversational skills in another langauge where most native-speaking professionals also speak English, so he used his language skills to build rapport with clients socially but most professional conversations were in English. There are a lot of contexts where conversational abilities wouldn’t be good enough though.

      1. QuickQuestion*

        I get what you’re saying – and this would be more like, chatting with families at a community event. This organization also employes people specifically for communication/translation, so I think it’s not a huge part of the job. Not giving presentations in another language, for example, but being able to interact on a personal level at open community events. Thanks for your answer.

  206. Catsaber*

    Is there a good way to say, “You need to give me percentage completed number/status update for this project because Boss said to,” without sounding like…I don’t know, a snotty little toad? Part of my job is to update our projects in the project tracking software every week with a status and rough % completed. Sometimes that’s hard to quantify, but in this particular project, there are 100 tasks that need to be done, with two developers working through them. It’s very easy to say, “We’ve completed 10 tasks this week for a total of 30 completed.” One of my coworkers seems like he HATES giving these updates. He keeps telling me that he and the other developer will meet the deadline. I’m not questioning that – I know they will. I’m not really sure what his reticence is…he sort of trails off every time I ask him about it. My boss has even said point blank, “You must give me a status update with % completed” and he hems and haws every time.

    So I guess…I should just be blunt about it, since Boss has been blunt about it. This particular coworker seems very bothered overall with giving firm dates and numbers on things, like it’s going to be held against him. I get that to an extent – we’re in IT, shit goes wrong all the time, expected end dates are often not met – but for the most part, everyone around us, including the bosses understand that too. I think I feel like being blunt about “Give me a status update because it’s part of your job” is patronizing and needlessly aggressive. Am I making too much out of this?

    1. Kathenus*

      Boss has requested a weekly update on the project every Friday afternoon. Please send me the # of tasks completed (or whatever the metric is) by 2:00 p.m. every Friday so I can compile the report. Thanks.

      I’d suggest your metrics be as specific as possible, such as your example of # of tasks completed, versus % of the total project (if based on a subjective versus objective interpretation). Then, if you think needed or helpful, have a weekly reminder sent out Friday mornings to back up the request.

      Just be matter of fact, this is a new required task, this is what’s needed and when it’s due, use reminders to help people keep it on their radar, and then hold them to completing the new requirement.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes – Boss has set this as a new requirement. I’ve found that sheer persistence is helpful.

        If he doesn’t respond by the deadline, keep asking – not escalating in tone, always unfailingly pleasant, but escalating in intrusiveness. So the routine reminder is an email. If he doesn’t submit on time, it becomes a phone call. If he doesn’t respond in a timely fashion, you walk over to his desk.

        When refusing is more troublesome than cooperating, he’s likely to start cooperating. And if not, you have a trail to demonstrate to your manager that here is a problem for management.

    2. LGC*

      Is it straightforward to log them? Are all the tasks equally important to the project? He might be getting hung up there. This might be a case where you want to give direction on what you want – if you want percentage of tasks completed, say that.

  207. iceclown*

    What are your favorite tips for increasing focus and concentration at work? Lately I have a lot of trouble focusing on one thing until completion. I have chronic depression, and I’ve already read and reread that Captain Awkward post, ridden the med-go-round five times, and made an appointment to see a therapist as much as my wallet will allow, even though I have a high-deductible health plan that’s generally too expensive for me to use. I understand that a certain amount of fantasizing about death is probably unavoidable given my history of brain cooties up until now, but I used to be a lot more productive than I have been the last year or so. What am I doing wrong?

    1. Asenath*

      You’re probably doing nothing wrong. Sometimes brain cooties sneak back in on their own and don’t forget that they can make your brain to you which might explain unwelcome thoughts. I think the more formal phrase is ‘depression affects your cognitive ability’. If you’re thinking about suicide, get professional help ASAP. If it’s not as bad as that, think back to what helped last time. Are there any self care habits you’ve dropped? Any techniques you learned for focussing on work rather that distressing thoughts? I try putting off the tempting thoughts until I get some small segment of my work done. Then I repeat.

    2. Anonymous Tea Drinker*

      I have depression and ADHD, and some day-to-day things that have been helpful to me are letting myself take periodic short breaks, self-care things like snacks and (in my case) tea, and having something pleasant to look forward to, like texting a friend or reading a good book, at lunch and after work. Wishing you well.

    4. LGC*

      Oh man.

      So first, the thoughts about death. As Asenath noted, that is definitely something worth getting addressed. (I hesitate to use “suicide” because…well, you didn’t, and you didn’t say you thought about killing yourself, just that you fantasized about death. But also, it sounds like those thoughts are significantly impacting your quality of life right now!)

      On the major point: it reads to me like you’re mentally fatigued – and have been for a while (a year, from what you said). Have your hours gone up in the past year? Do you have more responsibilities at work? Outside of work, have things picked up? Have you worked steadily for a long stretch of time? All of that can affect your effectiveness. And sometimes it might just be the depression itself – you wouldn’t expect someone with cancer to just work through everything, and depression works the same way. So, again, it might not be that you’re doing anything wrong.

      If you have the ability to take time off (which, unfortunately, not everyone does), definitely take some. You’re entitled to take like a day or two (or even a week) off to recharge and relax. (Of course, this doesn’t mean that you should just take a month and stay in bed.)

      Other than that…put a bandaid on it and just don’t focus on one thing until completion. I try to break up tasks so I’m not focused on one thing for too long if possible. Try working on something for half an hour and giving yourself a break for a couple of minutes before working on it again.

      1. iceclown*

        These are good notes and I really appreciate all the time you all spent on them. :-)

        My boss retired last year and the new boss and grandboss who replaced him are having us do some different types of content, which I can’t explain in much detail lest I identify myself, but the tl;dr version is that our workloads have at least doubled during a period in which we lost half of our small staff to reorganization, maternity leave and leaving for another job but not being replaced yet. I bring work home and when I’m not doing stuff for my day job, I do freelance work in a non-related industry so I can pay down my debt and save for a new car. I get about five or six hours of sleep a night.

        The new boss and the extra workload are pretty much the only things that have changed for the worse, because I’m on the most effective med combo I’ve ever taken. It’s not perfect but I generally feel nothing rather than terrible, which is not ideal, but still welcome. Because of our high deductible plan, I can’t afford to see my new therapist more than, like, once a month for a while, but I’m going to ask him to give me homework so I can work on brain stuff between actual appointments. I really hope this guy works out.

        I do have some paid vacation saved up – it’s hard for me to use it because of my workload, but maybe when the staffer who’s out on maternity leave comes back I could take a day or two.

        Thank you so, so much for the thoughtful replies, you all.

        1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

          sending warm thoughts. Protect your sleep. If you can (do it slowly if need be… but try to do it…)…. cut back on the extra work you are bringing work home (they screwed up, not you; you do not have to rescue them at the expense of your health). If you need to, cut back on the extra gig work… the new car could be a used 99 Corolla, and it’s healthier than losing sleep. I speak from the experience of the chronically sleep deprived… My depression was a lot better when I got good (and adequate) sleep. Life changing. I am preaching to myself here, but I can see, feel and hear the difference in myself when I am “running on empty.” Nothing replaces a good nights sleep.

        3. LGC*

          Glad I could help – and yeah, I’m not surprised you’re suffering from a lack of ability to focus! Honestly, it does seem like you’re suffering from a bit of burnout.

          Don’t feel guilty about taking a week off, though. As long as you plan in advance you should be fine.

        4. WellRed*

          A new boss and extra workload are pretty much the only things that have changed for the worse. Those are two pretty major things! When are they planning to address that or do they not need to because you’re shouldering the burden? Can you stop taking work home? Also, take a few days off? And please, get some more sleep if you can.

  208. Mockingbird*

    I have an online stalker. We used to be friends, so unfortunately she knows my real name and an old address. Although it has been about 10 years since I told her to stop contacting me, and I have her blocked as much as possible, I know she still follows my public online presence, she’s tried to use mutual online friends to get in contact with me, etc. For context, said public accounts are not associated with my real name/identity in any way outside of her prior knowledge. This person hasn’t ever tried to use my IRL contact info.

    I’m starting a new job where the protocol is to publish names and pictures of the employees on their website. I see how this is good for the business and employees and it’s becoming standard in the field so I don’t really want to not participate… but I have to admit I’m a little worried my stalker could soon easily google my name and workplace. Has anyone been in this situation before? Would you alert security? Refuse to have your name and photo online? Maybe just not have a photo? Other suggestions?

    1. Lilysparrow*

      Talk to HR. Cyberstalking is unfortunate more and more common. If they don’t already have a policy for employees who request online privacy, then it’s high time they made one.

    2. Agent J*

      I think you should ask them to exclude your name and photo for safety reasons. I help run our staff photos for our website and I think this is a reasonable request. Your safety and well-being come first.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Just bring up that you cannot be on the website in name or photo because of a stalker. This is a reasonable request.

  209. anon-y-non*

    How can I gently give feedback up the chain without going to HR?

    I was repeatedly asked to interview for a promotional position designed for a specific person–down to the interview questions. (gov’t)

    Over the last month I then had to endure being told about 6 times by 2/3 people on the hiring panel what good “practice” applying and interviewing would be, even though we all recognized this position wasn’t tailored for me.

    After the interview I was then told what a good job I did, but maybe I wasn’t enthusiastic enough about the position.

    I would have welcomed the practice comment once as well-intentioned from each individual. After a certain point it started to make me angry, and after that, well, I was ready to withdraw because why should I bother? How can I convey that well-intentioned or not, the repeated nature got both discouraging and inappropriate?

    1. AnonAnon*

      Why can’t you talk directly to the person? Just say, “I feel like I was treated really badly by X, Y, and Z…”

  210. JNM*

    What are some of the best interview thank you/follow up notes you’ve written? I’m struggling to sound less stiff/formulaic in mine :(

    1. Alex*

      Once, a long time ago, I was interviewing to be a nanny. During the interview, we discussed the payment/tax situation, and the parents admitted they didn’t know much about the rules there.

      In my follow up email, I sent them a bunch of resources for correctly paying nannies.

      I got the job.

      You probably can’t replicate that, but I always find it helpful to be specific about something you talked about in the interview–maybe there was a moment where you felt the interviewer was really liking what you were saying, so say you enjoyed talking about X. Also, if the interview was particularly long, you can say how you appreciate them spending so much time with you, or thank them for anything they went out of their way to accommodate you or help you.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think try to pick out one thing from the interview and mention it. “I enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about x-aspect of the Y-position.”

  211. AbleMable*

    I think I’ve become a bit too comfortable at work and may have been running my mouth a bit too much lately. I need to get myself back on track with professionalism.

    A few examples: I think I’ve been a bit too forthcoming with the fact that I think some of our products are awful and I can’t imagine why anyone would buy them. Today, my boss told me that one of my clients was thinking of adding on X product to their portfolio and I said something to the effect of “They haven’t realized how much that product sucks?”

    There have been a few other instances where my dissatisfaction/frustration/jadedness on our products and workplace has bled through to my interactions with my boss or coworkers. I don’t think I’ve put myself in danger of getting fired yet, but I don’t want it to reach that point. I know I really should just find a new job where I’d be happier, but the truth is that I have a fairly competitive salary and VERY competitive benefits and I’m struggling to find jobs that can compete, and I really can’t afford to take a cut (my whole industry is low paying, so it’s not like my competitive salary is comfortable by any means).

    To be clear, this isn’t affecting my WORK. I am one of the top performers on my team, and I am always trying to make our products better…I just don’t really have the power to really make a big impact in that way. What this is affecting is my attitude, and I am worried that is going to affect my boss’s opinion of me.

    How do you keep a good attitude when you feel your work is mostly a giant waste of time?

    1. Anonymous Tea Drinker*

      Sorry, this was meant to go to a commenter above. I think the system goofed when it told me I couldn’t name myself “anonymous!”

      I don’t have as much experience related to this question, but something that helps when I feel myself getting uninvested can be thinking about why I care about what I’m doing (is there something that makes you want to engage and stay professional, like creating a positive work environment for your coworkers?) Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        It affects your work because having a good attitude and not being brand-negative are basic requirements you’re not meeting. Reframe the products or view it from the client’s perspective as far as the customer service interaction. I hate onions, but if Client wanted an onion-scented candle, I’d be happy that it reminds them of Grandpa’s kitchen and, when I tell them that, yes, I can keep them constantly stocked, starting this week, they’re going to want to give me 11 stars.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I have a very similar problem, both in terms of expressing myself a bit too casually and feeling like my work, particularly my Main Project, isn’t going to amount to much in the long run.

      What I’m trying to do is reframe it in my head: I’ve been tasked to make Main Project happen. The best case scenario is that it does, in fact, happen. The worst case scenario is that I document exactly what I’ve done to make it happen and why those efforts didn’t or can’t work. Either way, I need to be supportive of Main Project. I can point out the potential challenges but I need to do it in a way that isn’t fully negative (“that will never happen”). I can bring up the history of Main Project, but in terms of the lessons learned and where to go from here that will be different, not doomed-to-repeat-past-failures.

      It’s hard, for sure. I get into discussions all the time with people who are new to this project, have no idea of the history or the real roadblocks, and spend a lot of time suggesting things that have been looked at and discarded years ago. What I’m trying to do is let them talk more, and see if I hear any new insights in what they’re saying. Fresh perspectives rather than rehashing old ideas.

      I’m also trying to get ownership in a new way – before I was kind of content to stand to the side, knowing what I know, and throw stones. But, if what the company wants is for me to get Main Project to work, then I’m going to go for it. I don’t have to be a true believer, and Main Project doesn’t have to succeed if it just isn’t possible in the long run. But I’m trying to have a new attitude targeting the space between Realist and Optimist that if anyone can make it happen it’s me, and I’m going to make it very clear that I am doing my best. It also helps that I’m taking work-sponsored courses that are highly relevant to this new approach I’m taking, so I can look at Main Project like a case study and a way to demonstrate these new skills, which are very transferable to other (possibly more feasible) projects.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Remind yourself that these negative words can tank your reputation, your ability to get a good reference, your ability to continue to get good pay and perks. I assume that you have worked hard to get where you are. Don’t ruin it all by verbalizing this stuff. Even if your work is a giant waste of time, you say you are well paid to do it.

  212. Anonymous Tea Drinker*

    I have depression and ADHD, and some day-to-day things that have been helpful to me are letting myself take periodic short breaks, self-care things like snacks and (in my case) tea, and having something pleasant to look forward to, like texting a friend or reading a good book, at lunch and after work. Wishing you well.

    1. Anonymous Tea Drinker*

      Sorry, this was meant to go to a commenter above. I think the system goofed when it told me I couldn’t name myself “anonymous!”

      I don’t have as much experience related to this question, but something that helps when I feel myself getting uninvested can be thinking about why I care about what I’m doing (is there something that makes you want to engage and stay professional, like creating a positive work environment for your coworkers?) Good luck!

  213. K.H. Wolf*

    I had a slightly odd response after an interview a week-ish ago, and I was hoping for some input as I’m not very experienced in job-searching. I completed the second in-person interview (entry level, so likely to be the final interview), and I got a call a few days later. However, instead of being rejected or given an offer, they said that I was the only person who had “passed” both interviews, and that they wanted more candidates to choose from, so they were going to re-advertise and do more interviewing. (I got the strong impression that it wasn’t the decision of the person on the phone, who would be the manager for the position, but I could be wrong.)

    I know from reading this site to both take them at their word and move on, which isn’t a problem. They have all my materials, so I definitely don’t need to reapply. I was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar experience, and how it turned out for them. (Never heard back, got rejected, got an offer, weird dynamics after accepting?)

    1. Kathenus*

      I think they’re just trying to let you know that the process is being extended but you’re still in the running. If I had a strong candidate from a first posting, but wanted to post again to deepen the field, I’d reach out to them so that they weren’t confused if they saw the new posting. So as you said, just take them at their word, and be glad they’re being good communicators. Good luck!

  214. Very Tired*

    This seems like a good idea now but I’m wondering if I’ll regret it in the future:

    I worked at a Fortune 500 company as a contract employee for almost a year. My manager during this time was horrific. She incompetent at her job and hides it by lying and tearing other people down to make herself look good.

    She fired three people before me and on my first day she introduced me to people as the temp until they can find someone else. (She has been a manager less than 2 years).

    She and her manager are basically mean girls who love to sit their and bash almost everyone they have contact with (she is his only direct report). Work could be done in half the time except she insists it gets down her nonsensical way. She loves to brag she is the only person who can do the work correctly but she forges the numbers so she looks good.
    The amount isn’t significant given the company’s total revenues but it gets me that she can destroy other people by doing stuff like this.

    Would telling HR this help any future employees or do they not care about temps?

    1. AnonAnon*

      The only thing HR truly cares about is whether the company will get sued. If you do decide to complain, the only way your complaint will matter is if you can frame it in terms of dollars and cents losses to the company. If she is posting fraudulent / forged numbers, that is something HR is likely to care about.

      If your only complaint is that she is being mean, HR probably does not care. HR’s primary job is to avoid liability for things like racial discrimination or sexual harassment. General unpleasantness and demeaning treatment is not their concern. Complaining to HR about this is a good way to end up in an unemployment line.

    2. AnonAnon*

      HR only cares about things that can spark lawsuits. Racism and sexism, for instance, can start lawsuits. Just generally being mean is not a legal liability. HR might also decide that the easiest way to deal with the problem is to terminate the person who complained about it.

      However, things like forging or falsifying her reports is very much something they might like to know about. If you do complain, be sure to frame it in such a way that you emphasize the damage or losses to the company.

      1. Kathenus*

        While that’s sometimes true, it isn’t across the board. Yes, a main responsibility for HR is to protect the legal interests of the organization related to the employee end of things, many HR teams would and do care about situations like this. It’s very much a ‘know your organization’ situation. If you present concerns professionally and as dispassionately as possible, it’s more likely to be effective than being emotional. Be specific with examples, not generalities. Only you can decide if you want to do so, but I think in some situations this type of feedback can be helpful. Even if it doesn’t result in direct action at this time, it might help building a narrative if there is a pattern of behavior that this person exhibits. Good luck.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      How is it possible she’s forging the numbers and accounting doesn’t catch it?
      It seems Accounting and/or the CFO should be informed not HR. This may actually be illegal.

      1. valentine*

        Report her for the numbers. Leave the attitude out, so no one accuses you of retaliation for bullying.

  215. Annieruok*

    I’m the COO of a mid-sized nonprofit, We need to move to new office space as our building is being converted to condos. Rents have skyrocketed in our city since we signed our last lease. Moving out of the city isn’t an option for a bunch of reasons. So after lots of searching, it’s really looking like we are going to need to go open plan. The new building has lots of really wonderful amenities so many things will be much, much better about the new space (views! roof deck! transit across the street rather than 1/3 mile away! a theater where we can do programming on site rather than across town!) but it’s looking inevitable that most people will need to give up private offices in this move. So how do we make this more bearable? What kinds of seating arrangements help downplay the negatives?

    Right now we’re considering putting in a couple of phone booths so people can make private calls. And turning the second small conference room into a silent room with library rules and soundproofing, a few hot desks, and some comfy couches. What else? Anyone have a seating arrangement they like in an open plan? Or furniture that works particularly well? Advise welcome (except advise that says don’t go open plan cause that’s likely not a choice

    1. iceclown*

      You might look into acoustic improvements for the desks too – I’ve seen some little screens that go by the monitor and stuff to help absorb some of the sound. The phone booths and quiet room are great ideas. If people have a few places to go to escape the noise, the open plan office will go over better.

      I’m not sure how big your area is going to be, but if you have a pretty big group, I’ve seen some cool open office layouts that use a neighborhood-style layout.

    2. Undine*

      Acoustics are extremely important. When making choices, remember hard surfaces reflect noise, soft surfaces absorb. So a lot of concrete and glass will make the space louder. In addition to phone booths, more conference rooms in general so groups of three people have somewhere to go. Make sure there’s a room without glass walls and a lock, that can be used for a lactation room if necessary, and that there’s enough privacy for HR and managers, both for difficult conversations and for things on screens. Consider ordering everyone noise-canceling headphones. If it’s an option, expand your telecommuting policy, because fewer people in the office means less noise. Also, if people can work from home when they’re sick, germs will spread less. Look at kitchen placement, because smells travel, and it’s hard to sit near such a high traffic area.

    3. PX*

      A lot of good comments below about practicalities, one thing I’m going to mention is culture. Its best to start as you mean to go on in terms of setting expectations now, so think about having some guidelines and sharing them with everyone. And as someone higher up the tree – try to actually model that behaviour. So whether its leaving to take personal calls, working from home etc.

      Also think about the distribution of people. If there is a clear distinction, try having the quieter roles in one place, and the more ‘loud’ roles in another so that within the confines of the space you have, there is some respite in terms of volume.

    4. WellRed*

      Is there an option to put in at least some cube walls to provide some semblance of privacy and to absorb sound? As to seating arrangements, group teams together and provide as much space as possible per person so they are not on top of each other. Also, arrange so they are not staring at each other all day.

      1. valentine*

        Cube farm, if poss, and for the staring,group standing desks.

        Can people work on the roof deck? Because I’d want my desk there year-round.

    5. Kathenus*

      Great on you for trying to consider all this in advance, and very good suggestions already. One additional one is to engage the employees for ideas. Let them know the reality of an open plan and why, as well as the good parts of the move. Tell them the ideas you mention above and ask them for additional thoughts on how to make this most effective. Be honest that the reality is all ideas may not be feasible, but that you want to take advantage of the larger brain trust to have as many options to look at as possible to make things work as efficiently as possible.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I hate open office, but in your case it seems like it’s really needed. And I think it can be more pleasant if considerations are taken. Here’s my two cents.

      Walk the walk: don’t force all the peons to go out in open while managers keep their cushy offices! [This made me leave a job. I lost all respect for management after that move.] But some like HR may still need a dedicated office. Be prepared to explain why and it’d better be good.

      Consider their jobs: Are some people on the phone all day while others need quiet to concentrate? Can you arrange accordingly by function?

      Include many small huddle rooms available to all and a easy way to reserve them. People can pop in and out as needed for privacy.

      Consider flexibility to work at home. Must people come in every single day? Don’t revoke WFH if you’ve had it to “force” people into the new office. That’s insufferable and demeaning.

      Noise/lighting: Open office noise is the worst, minimize as much as possible with your design. Allow for some individual adjustments in lighting at each seating area.

      Desk design: screens/dividers can give the illusion of more privacy so people aren’t forced to stare at each other.

      Optional seating: I’ve seen sofas, rolling adjustable laptop stands, soft chairs, bar-seating and standing desks employed in open office configurations. Consider flexible seating areas or nooks like this.

      Lockers: Will people have a secure place to store personal items if they don’t have a regular desk?

  216. colson baker*

    does anyone know what allison considers recently? wondering if i should hold off on posting my question or not?

  217. Do Your Own Work!!*

    I am new on my job – it will be a year in one month. The issue I am having is there are too many spoons in the tea. I work with three female busy bodies who don’t get boundaries. I am trying to set them, but sometimes worry how it comes across. I am not rude or disrespectfully with anyone. They just talk (a bit catty) among themselves.

    I’d like to be able to do my job without folks sticking their nose in it, getting in conversations when not being spoken to. There are some who say just let them help, but they have their own work to do. A couple of them aren’t in my department and the other one is in my department. She’s under me and I’ve had to slap her hand often, but she seems to be getting it. They have their own groups to support – go support them. It has taken me sometime to like this job, but I’d like these women to pull their nose out of my job.

    They seem to take offense that I don’t ask for help, but if I need it I’ll ask. Any suggestions on how to handle the office hens?

    1. Friend of Captain Awkward*

      Captain Awkward has a bunch of advice for how to handle the unwanted advice-givers. The thing about your comment “there are some who say just let them help, but they have their own work to do,” is that whether they have their own work to do isn’t your concern unless you are their manager. So you will definitely come across as… well… bossy at least, and rude possibly, if you take the attitude “do your own work; you have your own groups to support — go support them.” And thinking of them as “hens” might not help either. I don’t know what their attitudes really are, but could they just like teamwork and feeling helpful and be talkative? You might try attributing the best intentions to them, and just listen without taking their advice (Captain Awkward is good here at explaining). Good luck!

    2. Approval is optional*

      You say you sometimes worry how your boundary setting comes across. I think you are right to worry about that to be frank.
      It is rude and disrespectful to call them hens, busybodies, catty, and to say you had to ‘slap her hand’ (!!) when talking about your junior team member/report. You may *think* you are NOT rude or disrespectful to anyone, but I’d bet you attitude seeps through. Even if this attitude has come into being because of their behaviour over time, you have to change it right now. (And I have to say I don’t think it is all because of their behaviour given the language you use about them (still can’t get past the ‘slap her hand’)).
      Find AAM advice, or other credible advice (I second Captain Awkward), about respectfully setting boundaries with people who interrupt etc and pick one method/script that suits you and go with it. If it doesn’t work consider escalating to their line manager/supervisor.
      If you actually manage your junior, sit her down and outline (with your new improved attitude) how you want her to interact with you and others, complete work and so on. If she assists you but reports to someone else, be less directive and more collaborative – discuss with her how you can work together so you both can be effective ; you say what you need/want, then listen to her while she does the same, then you come to an agreement. Whether you need to bring her manager into the loop on this will depend on your org.

      1. Do Your Own Work!!*

        Thank you both for your input. I am not a supervisor or manager – we are the same level except the one under me. Okay I shouldn’t have called them hens, but they are busy. I see how one does the other one, overstepping into her lane. She doesn’t like it (she’s told me), but doesn’t care because she’s close to retiring. But it’s interesting because she tries to get into my conversations and work. Slapping her hand is just a term I am using because that’s what it feels like. Constantly have to ask her not to go into my VPs calendar and move things, schedule things. We’ve talked, but it doesn’t always work and that’s not the only area she does this. She only wants to do certain work….my work. Everything else falls wayside.

        I don’t try to be rude. I am self aware and don’t mind checking myself and taking input. Whether their intentions are to help or be a team or being busy, I do believe there have to be boundaries. I don’t overstep when it comes to their jobs, and I’d like to get that same courtesy. When and if I need to team up, I do.

        1. Asenath*

          I’m a fan of direct statements in the moment. One time, when I started a new job, the person who had had some of my responsibilities before I arrived told me how to handle something at a point when I felt like spreading my wings a bit and deciding for myself how to do it. I liked and respected her a lot – particularly when she backed off when I said I wanted to handle it my way, although I was worried about offending her. With other situations involving people I had to deal with outside my own section (especially things that tended to get repeated), I didn’t ask, I told – even though I didn’t have the authority. “Please do not approve that change unless I have been informed – this sort of change causes a lot of communication problems if it doesn’t go through the proper procedures.” Not “I’d prefer it” or “I’d like it”, but “do not do”.. and repeat as necessary.

          1. Do Your Own Work!!*

            Yes! This is something I am learning in my new role. Initially, I made the mistake of saying “Can you” offering things up as an option. The person under me will take it and run with it, so I adjusted things. But she still does it and it goes under the umbrella of “I am only trying to help”. I’ve tried talking to her about it, but it doesn’t work.

      2. Do Your Own Work!!*

        Approval is optional

        “If she assists you but reports to someone else, be less directive and more collaborative – discuss with her how you can work together so you both can be effective ; you say what you need/want, then listen to her while she does the same, then you come to an agreement. ”

        She is my back up, but reports to someone else. This is a perfect example – we had a situation that required us to work closely and collaborate. I scheduled a meeting with her and talked about the workload and how we should handle it. Gave her the floor and we reached an agreement. I kid you not, 30 minutes later she went off and did something 360 to what we discussed. I have to go back and say “what happened?” I try not to bring her manager in, but if it continues, I’ll have to.

  218. Majestic Space Whale*

    Hi, I have been reading around for a while now, but this is my first time joining in!
    I have a situation I would very much appreciate some advice on. I have been working as a temp (well, local variety, but it should be about the same thing) at a company since last summer, and it’s been going just fine. People are very nice, as is the environment, although it’s your generic call-centre type of office.
    From the beginning there was an implication that I could potentially start full-time there. We have discussed this before Christmas when I received an offer for another company- my boss made me a counter offer to stay and start full-time in January. I decided to stay, however, the January starting date had to be postponed due to school issues (last year of university, which means lots of exams and master thesis completion, complicated further by me having issues with anxiety lately). We decided to prolong the temp contract till the end of March and that we would see how the school thing goes by then and I could then start full-time from April.
    Now we are getting close to that date. And I have changed my mind. The job is just not enticing for me anymore, the pay is REALLY not very good, and I have enough issues completing my studies as it is. And I really just feel I need to take is more slowly, to have a few free months before diving fully in the work process, and also have the possibility of simply packing my stuff after graduation and getting some job in another country if I so desire.
    How do I present this to my boss? I feel sort of obligated to stay now that they have been accomodating me in many ways for past few months due to school obligations and like they are relying on me… And yes, I do realize it’s kind of stupid to be this stuck on it- but the anxiety is sort of mudding the waters here.
    Any tips?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      “I’m grateful for the flexibility you’ve shown and it’s been interesting working here but I’ve decided it’s best for me to explore other options. How can I wrap up my position here for the best possible transition?”

      That’s it. You don’t owe them a nickle’s worth of time or worry more. Good luck on your search.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Focus on the fact that the last conversation landed on seeing how the school thing was going. So the school stuff is more of a time sink than you ever envisioned. It’s fine to say that and it’s fine to say you would like to remain at the same level or to say that you are giving notice.

      This sounds like misplaced anxiety, I could be reading this wrong. I think once you nail down what you are actually going to do you may find it easier to say good-bye to this job. WT is right, you do not owe anyone anything here. Be sure to thank them for being flexible with you. But you will probably see that they expected you would want to move on.

    3. Majestic Space Whale*

      Yeah, it is absolutely the anxiety. I have this compulsion where I feel the need to appease absolutely everyone and make them happy, otherwise the world might go up in flames. It’s not a very useful thing. Definitely working on it, very hard.
      So it’s really good to hear that quitting is not an objectively terrible thing to do, as the rational part of my brain suspected all along. Thanks for the language suggestions, guys!

  219. Hard-Done-By Researcher*

    I know I’m late to the party but if you are reading this far down I’d truly value your time in responding. I started as a university research assistant two years ago as one of a team, and was promoted a year ago. The original staffer (the rest have moved on) that I supervised is grossly incompetent as well as unethical. He has low computer literacy, types far more slowly than expected, doesn’t ask questions or use available resources, doesn’t learn from feedback, and has needed literally everything he has produced to be redone by other team members. In the fall I was spending 2-3 hours a night overtime checking his work line by line and providing feedback, requesting revisions, or rewriting it as per my boss, the chair of the department, who stated that he “couldn’t believe that he was as incompetent as I said” and furnished a series of suggestions about how I should provide feedback, none of which addressed the basic skills deficit. Boss refused to consider performance management because “he’s never fired anyone” and if he did, “Incompetent Employee wouldn’t have a job, and he has a family to support.” He held me responsible for the output of the group (and my name goes on the publications), but would only suggest “Just go home on time” without agreeing to reducing any of my other duties when I pleaded that I couldn’t work 10-11 hour days indefinitely.

    In January I went on reduced hours by doctor’s order, and Boss took over supervising the employee (except he didn’t, and redoing his work was redistributed throughout the team). Recently we found that some work that had been assigned to this employee was completely plagiarized, and had only been caught by chance as one of the other team members spotted a sentence from a published article she recognized, then I did a spot-check and found all I checked was copied-and-pasted. We all thought surely Boss would have to act now; alas, we thought wrong.

    Obviously Boss is a truly incompetent manager, who I am going to be unable to change. My question is this: I know you are not supposed to crap-talk current or previous bosses in an interview. I would like to stay at this institution if I can. However if I get an interview and someone decides to move forward with me after that, they will end up finding out from HR that I am on medical reduced work hours (not a selling point) — but I would expect to be able to work full-time hours when I start a new job, where I’m not in this situation of being responsible for the output of an incompetent plagiarizer without any power to performance manage or fire him.

    So, how do I handle this in terms of a job search??

    1. AnonAnon*

      Your medical problems are nobody’s business. There are some pretty strong legal protections in place that prevent the employer from asking about the reason for your medical limitations. The only question that matters to the new employer is whether your medical limitations will interfere with your ability to do the job.

      And if they are doing their job correctly, they should phrase it as, “We’ve decided to offer you the job, on the condition that you have no medical needs that would interfere with the requirements.” It’s a conditional offer of employment, so if you said, “Actually, I do have chronic lycanthropy, is that a problem?” They could not then rescind the job offer unless they could prove that chronic lycanthropy (or whatever) is, in fact, an impediment to your work.

      If someone did ask, “Hey, your file says you are on reduced hours, what’s the deal with that?” You only have to say, “I was suffering from a medical complaint that has been resolved, and I don’t expect it to be a problem going forward.”

      1. valentine*

        Say it was a poor fit or you want to focus on individual contribution.

        When boss said he didn’t believe the depths of incompetence, I don’t get why you didn’t let boss see the horrid writing instead of sacrificing to fix it. If he won’t fire anyone, that includes you. What if you stop doing the guy’s work and focus on other stuff, or go by deadline and leave on time, regardless of what’s undone? (Or are you quitting while on medical leave?) In future, stop when you see the flags and prioritize your health, including your sanity.

        And report the plagiarism. I wouldn’t want to stay with an institution that didn’t adhere to their policy, especially if it’s zero-tolerance for students.

    2. Sheldon Cooper*

      I’m not sure that they would find out. I’d check in with your HR contact as to what gets shared in these instances.

    3. Wrench Turner*

      Check with HR to see what gets shared definitely, many will only do a verification of employment.
      You don’t have to trash talk your boss or institution. It’s not about them, it’s about you. What do you want to explore and discover more of? What tasks -writing, researching, drawing kittens- are you interested in doing more of? What better commute do you want? It’s not where you’ve been, but where you’re about to go.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      If this is a case of plagiarism, you can (and probably should) go over your bosses head and report it. University’s generally have very strict rules and policies about plagiarism, especially in research.

      I don’t think I’d mention the medical accommodation for hours if you think it will be clear by the time you’d start. At least not in an interview. I wouldn’t mention at all unless it comes up (doubtfully) or unless you think it would carry over into your next job.
      I’m concerned that you get all your references lined up though. Make sure you have those people because it sounds like your manager is really a incompetent boob.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      So you came to a supervisory job with no ability to fire? That’s a nightmare.
      You were promoted so this is not the job you initially interviewed for….
      I think I would say that “I was promoted for my good work efforts. However, my new position was not what I understood from the job description when I put in for/accepted the promotion.” Then redirect the conversation to “I would like to do more of X and Y, such as your open position states here.”

      If my back was totally to the wall, I might say, “I was asked to do things that I was not comfortable with, so I decided to look around and see what other opportunities are available.”
      Don’t be ashamed of being ethical. You don’t have to hide that part.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I can’t help with the advice you’ve already gotten except to say I agree, and I hope you’re able to get out of there soon.

      But I can say that, once you’re no longer having to redo the plagiarizing incompetent’s work, that it causes your boss’s articles to be rejected and forces him to deal with the problem directly. (Frankly, the team should let at least one submission through without redoing this guy’s work!) I’m a peer reviewer for several high level academic journals and the journals specifically request that any suspected plagiarism be reported. I’ve only had to report a couple of submissions out of more than 20 reviews, but there is a system in place for catching that.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Focus on the specifics of the new job, how these specifics appeal to you, and how you can excel at the new job to the great benefit of the new company. You are going toward something GOOD, not running away from something BAD.

  220. Pippin*

    Does anyone have recommendations for resources to learn MS Access? I’m self-taught and have managed to write databases for work to manage inventory and orders for vendors, and many other work-related tasks. It’s only a small part of my job but one of my favorite things that I do. We use these databases to streamline processes for which our primary software products in our healthcare system don’t meet.

    I’d like to learn more to be able to write more elegant and more highly functioning databases and am looking for resources. Any recommendations?

    1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I’m interested in this too. So far I did a 6 hour course on LinkedIn Learning which was pretty good but I’d like to learn more.

    2. Researchalator Lady*

      I like the Access 2003 Bible; yes, even though it’s old, I was able to pick it up for a song, and the basics are the same — there’s also lots of new reviews for it on amazon. I just mention the edition specifically because I can’t speak to any other versions. I don’t recommend other books to learn programs by yourself — not Word or Excel or system software — but this one I feel is worth a try. Good luck!

  221. Anon for shame*

    I need some advice on how to let people down. In my working life, I’m able to change things or decline an invitation, unless its from a higher-up – but I suck at this privately. The other day, a friend asked if I was busy on a certain date and without thinking, I replied yes as I’d not seen this person for a while. When I got home, I realised that I’d arranged something else for that day so I had to disappoint someone, which made me feel bad then annoyed at myself for putting myself in this situation. I’m not looking for sympathy for being disorganised but a strategy I can use for not doing this again. Asking forgiveness for being double booked is worse than a polite defer/decline.

    1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Can’t you just say “That sounds fun but I have to check (my calendar)” or “(with my SO)?”

      For the one you accidentally accepted, coming back as soon as possible “I’m so sorry I checked my calendar and I have already have plans for (that date). How about we do X on Y instead?” Leave out the second sentence if you don’t actually want to see the person.

    2. Wrench Turner*

      “This sounds great but I need to check my calendar first – I’ll get back to you.” And then check your calendar and get back to them. If you’re afraid of sounding like you’re dismissing them -and not just the one day- come back with alternative dates/times.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Am chuckling. My solution is to say, “Let me look at my calendar”. I say this each time every time. I stopped assuming that I actually remember my commitments for the week. I don’t always remember.

      I am surprised by how many times I do not have my calendar with me. So I promise the person that I will email them with my calendar in front of me and throw out a couple dates where I am open. Currently I am focusing on making sure my calendar goes everywhere with me.

      You can get a calendar book at the dollar store. This does not have to be expensive. I started by writing down the things I KNEW for a fact I would forget. As I went along I started writing more in so I could actually see what time frames were involved.

      That embarrassment of double booking can become a motivational tool to keep you on track. I have told friends, “Let me double check because I want to be absolutely sure I can do X with you on that date/time.” Friends do not mind hearing this! They want us to be sure also! That extra step to double check can actually read as a kind gesture.

      1. Anon for shame*

        Hi all, thanks for your kind replies. I got myself into a right knot over this but I have contacted my friend and it’s ok. I think I agreed immediately as I hadn’t seen her for a bit and then I was embarrassed to admit that I’d made a mistake with my calender – I even had my phone with me. I’ll take a bit more time in future.

        1. ..Kat..*

          You can even tell your friend this in a way that is a compliment – “I was so pleased at the thought of spending time with you that I forgot to check my calendar first. What about getting together on date X or Y or Z instead?”

          1. valentine*

            This is too big a deal to you. People understand these kinds of errors. It’s not like you waited until the day of or the night before. And maybe they’re not disappointed. Maybe they can immediately fill that time in a pleasing way. Or maybe they are disappointed, but not as disappointed as you might be or as much as whoever programmed you to agonize over this.

  222. Wrench Turner*

    This goes under the “not my job” category and I’d welcome others’ opinions. The HVAC company I turn wrenches for is real slow right now, “worst they’ve ever seen” the senior wrenchers say. It’s a regional company crossing several states with HQ several hours away but I work in a major city. Although there’s some seasonal ebb and flow the work is there, just not for us. Emails from HQ ask “We need your ideas for getting business!” and there’s a big push for the field techs to be pushy with customers to “ask your friends RIGHT NOW if they need service” to drum up more work. Customers generally hate that (they already don’t want to see me unless it’s absolutely necessary; I’m expensive). At the same time I don’t hear or see any advertising whatsoever for our company. No radio, internet, newspapers, direct mail postcards, anything!

    I ran one job in the morning and then spent half the day going door to door hanging like 200 flyers. I suggested it because marketing clearly isn’t doing their job (and I wanted to earn at least half a day’s pay). How much personal responsibility should I take on trying to get us new work like that? I was hired because I’m a trained/certified wrench turner. Marketing people are getting their 40 hours regardless, but when I’m only getting 1 or 2 a day and still have to do their jobs, it doesn’t seem right. But if I don’t – I don’t eat.

    1. WellRed*

      None. When the decision makers at the top, who should be doing the heavy lift of new growth planning, are asking the rank and file for ideas, and to spend time trying to increase sales ( because they won’t put $$ into an actual sales plan), it’s time to get out.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It’s easy to blame marketing not doing their jobs, but if there is no advertising going on in the company my guess is they’re been given no budget. And that’s a dire situation indeed!
      This is your job only in the sense that you’re a company representative with customer facing contact, and as such you should represent and support the company in a professional manner.

      As to how much you can do, the answer is not much. Sure, you can keep your eyes & ears open for places that may need your company’s service. You can do a little customer upselling IF the opportunity presents itself, and IF you’re in a likely spot you can flyer a little, maybe (please don’t put on cars though). But these things generally won’t amount to the level of business it sounds like the company NEEDS. I don’t know if it’s just a rough patch or indicators of more serious financial problems with the company, but I’d look for other signs their of their financial health not being good.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I wanted to add that you don’t KNOW marketing haven’t been given pay cuts. They may get their “40” but for 10% less pay. Don’t assume.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        They would have my sympathies if that were the case, but I’m sure I would have heard about it. HQ announces all kinds of things, and I’m sure they would have put out a “personal sacrifices, times are tough, even office staff is taking a pay cut to keep things going” kind of email. Also I’m not looking at 10% less pay, it’s more like 60-75%, with the expectation I would be working if it were available. I’m stuck in perpetual “on call” with a phone that never rings.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I’ve been through the 10% pay cut at a flailing company. It was done one-on-one, so there’s no way to know if that’s the case really. Worse, we were then expected/forced to work weekends to “help save” the company. I was out of there!

          Now, I also can’t say if you truly have a terrible marketing department! But resorting to guerrilla flyer marketing isn’t a good sign. Is marketing bloated with too many people? Is it run by an idiot-otherwise-known-as-the-owner’s-son? Is it run by a bunch of highly-paid empty suits or CEO cronies? Are there any sales people? Or is it a bunch of normal ‘folks trying to make due with nothing-burgers of a budget who are poorly led?

          Is the company spending money on useless things, such as artwork, property or lawsuits or executive perks? Is someone higher-up cooking the books? Have there been layoffs or has anyone in accounting left the company suddenly? I’d keep my eye out for these telltale things, but I’m kind of with Not So New Reader in that they’ve tipped their hand as to the state of their finances and it’s not a healthy picture. I would begin a job search very soon before it becomes critical.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I land where you do with stuff like this.
      My meals are tied to their income flows. Until that changes, I am pretty much stuck.

      I hope you are job hunting, as your company is telegraphing that it could be in serious trouble. They have seriously tipped their hand here.
      I am in a rural area. My friend went for HVAC training after his company shut down. He is very employable and this is a rural area. He will never, ever be without work. I could be making the wrong assumptions here but I bet you could find a new job fairly soon. And leaving would not be because you were asked to drum up customers but rather the bigger picture problem that your company doesn’t sound really healthy.

      But yes, as long as I am dependent on a company for income I will try to help with what they are asking. It’s self-defeating not to, really. This does not mean knock yourself out helping them. I mean make an attempt to do something. You do have the right to decide that they are paying you no matter if you do technical or if you do marketing, either way you get paid. Framing it like that may help a tiny bit. It also helps to not frame it as personal responsibility- it’s all under the heading of professional responsibility. When you go home at night this story is done for the day.

  223. M&M*

    This is late, but does anyone have experience job-shadowing someone? Basically I’m in my mid-20s and already regretting my education/career choices up to this point, and am considering a change that would require me to go back to school (school counseling), so obviously would want to be confident that it was the right choice before I committed to it. It’s something that would have been a lot more useful for me to have done when I was in say, high school, but I didn’t have my life together then either. I know informational interviews are what people past high school do, but I feel like shadowing would be much more useful in this case to get a sense of what a day consists of. Would this be super weird to try and do? Or even possible?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Not weird at all. What better way to understand what a job at X entails than to go to X Corp and see it firsthand? Honestly I would just contact people doing jobs you want directly and ask about shadowing them -or someone like them- and how to go about setting it up. They may say No for various reasons but it shouldn’t cause any harm to ask. You’ll probably have to contact a few to get any useful information but you never know. Good luck!

    2. Reba*

      Shadowing for educational roles is a thing! https://ase.tufts.edu/education/programs/schoolPsychology/shadowing.htm

      In some cases it may not be possible to get the full picture of the work due to privacy (student sessions–I think this would be a concern for traditional guidance counseling as well as for psychological services) but I think you are onto a good idea here. Why not reach out to professionals in your area and express desire to shadow OR to have a meeting, giving the person the option? Because going into the field requires internships and practicums, most people working in education will be used to having trainees of some sort around.

      Good luck!

    3. Asenath*

      It depends on what type of field you’re interested in. In some cases, shadowing is common and accepted – but it may be limited to students of a particular program or educational institution. Counseling is a field in which there may be such limitations, particularly due to the confidential nature of some of the work. I think if I were you, I’d try to get some kind of semi-official support, maybe through the professional association or even a potential employer, since the confidential aspect of the work means it might be difficult to walk into a shadowing opportunity off the street, so to speak.

  224. Mimmy*

    Taking a certification exam (related to the ADA) this coming week. It’s online and open-book and I have a whole week to do it, but eeeeeeeek I can’t believe I’m actually taking this step!!

    Wish me luck!!!

  225. Formal & Excited?*

    Hi everyone,

    I need help on how I can sound enthusiastic in my resume and cover letter when I am applying to work for a very formal professional workplace, like an accounting firm.

    I am currently working for a small nonprofit, but wanted to be an audit associate for an accounting firm (hopefully a large accounting firm, like the big 4 one day).

    I want to show enthusiasm without being like a sales pitch.

  226. Rachel Oliver*

    Hi everyone!
    I work in a very large company (12K+ employees with multiple divisions across the company). I have been on my current team for 10 years and have always been a valued employee. In the last few months we have had some major changes on our team in both staffing and opinion on what makes a strong team. I still love the work and genuinely like everyone on my team but I don’t feel like I am a good fit with the new direction of the team.
    I have started to job search and most of what I am finding is in other states. If at all possible I would prefer to stay at my current company but in a different division.
    Would it be advisable to ask my current supervisor if she could help me by reaching out to some of her connections in other divisions to see if they need any help with my particular set of skills? Obviously that would let them know I am looking.
    The pluses for me are I could take advantage of my supervisor and other team mates connections and find a new job in a company I really like. The plus for them is that they would have plenty of time to get someone else up to speed on my duties rather than just a 2 week notice. The down side for me is that while I don’t think they would fire me, I would expect that maybe they would start passing me over for the more interesting projects and assignments.

    I would love any advice!

    1. ..Kat..*

      Keep in mind that a new division or company will probably be a “new direction” as well. Maybe you should give this some more time while you polish your resume and start to see what your options would be in terms of new jobs/companies? Since these changes were made against what you would have wanted, maybe you just need time to settle in?

      Generally not a good idea to let current boss know you are looking. Especially if (after looking around) you end up deciding that this job is the best one for you for now. Just network with people who are not your boss or current coworkers.

      Good luck.

  227. AnonyMouse*

    I’m probably too late for feedback, but am I overthinking the fact that I haven’t heard anything from my references? Last week the hiring manager from a job I’m super hopeful for told me they were checking my references. Awesome! So I reached out to my references to give them a heads up. I know one was scheduled to talk to them yesterday morning. This person has been a reference for me twice, and both times they have given me a heads up after they were contacted with a vague synopsis of how the conversation went. The first time was when I was interviewing fresh out of grad school, so she told me that it sounded like it was between me and one other candidate. The other time she told me a little bit about what was discussed. I didn’t hear from her at all yesterday. I know she has been promoted since the last time she was a reference, so I can imagine her schedule is much busier and she just didn’t have time. That would be the rational explanation. But part of me is afraid that this might be a sign it didn’t go well…

    2. Wrench Turner*

      I’ve had several jobs where my references have been contacted and never told me. Don’t sweat it.

  228. beepboop*

    Does anyone have advice for preparing for an interview where you know that specific knowledge-based questions will be asked? I am preparing for an internship interview where 15 candidates will be selected from around 30 interviewees. The email said that the interview will include a short ntroduction, the contents of our applications, our academic achievements, and current political affairs in our region. The short introduction is manageable and I have lots of experience answering situational questions, but I am always fearful of knowledge-testing questions.

    What I tend to do is waaay overprepare to compensate for my anxiety about appearing silly, so I know that the questions will not require the depth of knowledge that I am anticipating. However, I don’t want to blow it off either and forget the name of a significant political figure, process, or institution; I really struggle to know how much knowledge I should bring in for an entry-level internship, especially when I already have a decent familiarity with regional affairs.

    Does anybody have similar experiences with these kinds of situations? How did you handle studying for this type of interview?

  229. Amethyst*

    I had an interview recently where I was asked how much I’d like to be paid an hour for the position I was interviewing for. I gave a number per hour, but how do you answer this question when it comes up for you?

    I don’t want to sell myself short & set too small of a number, but neither do I want to price myself out of a job, especially since I’m currently looking for one. This position didn’t advertise a hourly wage/salary, so I don’t know how much they’re willing to pay.

    Thoughts?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      I look up what the average wages are for my job in my area, divide by 2080 (full time hours) and ask for just above that per hour. I had been remarkably underpaid for years until I started finding and using that information.

    2. Triplestep*

      I always ask what the budget is for the position’s salary so we can see if we’re aligned. Sometimes they will tell you right then, often they won’t. They *should* only be asking the question to see if you’re aligned – not to eventually offer you as little as possible. In the real world, that’s often not the case.

      Regardless, I always use the word “budget” or “Budgeted” (as in “budgeted salary”) when I ask. They are not simply sizing up a candidate and saying “I think I will pay you $x.00 – yeah, that sounds good!” No, they have a budget for this position – they know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Let’s at least be real about THAT.

  230. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Hoping someone still sees this. Months ago, there was a letter from someone who is customers were offering to help run the business so she could get some time away from the office for a medical reason. Firmly everyone in the commentariat said that businesses are not allowed to have volunteers.
    This came to mind because a friend was working for a for profit living facility that uses volunteers. She was insistent that the volunteers were critically needed: “We we would never be able to provide the activities we provide without those volunteers!”
    My husband pointed out all the hospital booster clubs. I suspect those are at the NON-profit hospitals.
    What’s the story? My friend has left that company so it’s just an academic interest.
    We’re in the US.

    1. anon with no name ...*

      I believe it depends on what the volunteers are for – if they’re doing work you’d pay others for (like the day to day running of the officer) then no they can’t, but if the work is separate from the the regular business needs (running activities) volunteers can be used.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        This is it right there. Is this a paid activity central to operations? Organizing activities and programming for security and logistics purposes may be part of the standard operations for the hospital so whoever runs that would be an employee. The boosters, church groups, scouts, etc that come in and provide the various things are all volunteers and won’t affect the organization as a whole if they come or go.

  231. Feeling pigeonholed and passed over*

    I work as an editor for a division of a company in a pretty niche industry. I’m part of a team of 5, including the director of editorial services. I’ve been with the company for almost 4 years. In this time, we have become much more busy and more focused on the nitty gritty, granular editing vs the more graphic-based projects that I prefer. I receive positive reviews every time and have received a couple of raises… but no promotion to Senior Editor. Because of the increased workload, we will be hiring another editor… and my boss mentioned that it’s a senior editor position. If I don’t get a promotion this time around (reviews in the next couple of months) it will be a slap in the face.
    Fast forward to now: there is a PR/advertising division of my company with editors who work more on the graphic aspect of the job. In the past week or so, I have made many LinkedIn connections with editors at this specific company division. There is not an editor job posting, but I have so many questions for them. I’m just curious about different aspects of their job, in case a posting does open in the future. How should I proceed? I don’t want to scare them away.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I would ask them if you could meet and/or have a call to learn more about their division? Like an informational interview.
      You can mention you work for x-division of parent company, but you’re interested in the graphic aspects.

      Fortune favors the bold I always say.

    2. Bulbasaur*

      To your first point, it might be worth asking outright if they will be offering the Senior Editor role for internal applications as well as external ones (which is a polite way of saying “Have you considered promoting me and hiring to fill my old spot instead?”) It’s a reasonable question and a way to up the ante a bit on the conversation.

      Regarding the second point: you mentioned that you’ve connected to them on LinkedIn. Watch their activity there, read and comment on any articles or updates they post, and that kind of thing. If you know them offline as well and run into them from time to time, pick a few of your questions that could double as small talk topics and try those out. Comparing notes on divisions with similar functions under different managers is a fairly normal thing to be doing in a work context, so it shouldn’t be too hard to engineer a conversation of that type given the right circumstances.

  232. Eric*

    This week’s recruiter gripe: a guy I’ve worked with but never gotten a job through sends me an email saying he’s started his own firm and asks if I’m looking.

    Me: “Thanks for reaching out. I’m actually quite happy where I am now. But good luck!”
    Him: “Just reaching out don’t need a long story” (no period, even)

    I’m so tempted to reply that if he had any idea how to talk to people, I’d have referred someone to him, but now I’m going to be actively discouraging people from working with him.

    1. Triplestep*

      Sorry, this made me laugh out loud!

      There doesn’t seem to be any “gray area” when it comes to recruiters. They are either really great, or really terrible. It’s the latter group that made me think during my last job search that it wasn’t fair so many recruiters suck and still have jobs, and how could I get in on some of that? Long story short, I reached out to a recruiter in my industry and now I am doing some side work consulting for him. (This is all part of my plan to develop skills that will allow me to “gig work” as a semi-retired person in 10 years; I’m 55.)

      Anyway, I’m trying to emulate the really great recruiters I’ve met over the years; my current job is actually traceable back to my having randomly connected on Linkedin with one of them. I think you should write back to this guy – you’d be doing him a favor!

  233. graduatingandsearching*

    I’ve tried searching through the archives, but couldn’t find an answer… does anyone know how I would go about addressing a cover letter to a gender-neutral name? I’ve tried Google-sleuthing, but the LinkedIn profile I found was sans picture and it’s a pretty common name, so Facebook was a disaster.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      What about leaving out the title? So just say “Dear Pat Jones” rather than “Dear Mx Jones”?

  234. THAT Girl*

    Looking for a some guidance applying at a university. I applied for a job at a university and submitted a resume & cover letter. I got a phone interview, but not an in-person interview or any other follow-up communication. Another position that suits my skills even better has come up in another department at the same university. How much do you think it matters if I use pretty much the same cover letter? I am submitting it through the same portal, just different position and department. Frankly, I spent a lot of time creating a pretty darn good letter and since I’m applying to the same organization it only needs a few tweeks. It was obviously good enough to get me a phone interview. What do you think?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Hopefully you see this, but I got my current job at a university after just changing the date on my cover letter. I applied for a job with the same title at one school and didn’t get an interview, but it worked out for the best second time around!

      When I was applying for multiple positions at the same school, I made some minor tweaks if I needed to just to fit the job description.

  235. thathat*

    I may try to do this later with more info as a letter proper, but just because it’s bugging me again…

    Is it weird or off that my supervisor goes to lunch/on breaks with the entire rest of the department except for me? Granted, that “rest of the department” is just two people, and one of them doesn’t like me, but that’s kind of part of the problem? Even when the one who doesn’t like me was recently out for two weeks, I could still hear her go up to the other person and ask if they were ready for lunch almost every day.

    I’m never invited to lunch with them, or to go on breaks with them.

    There’s kind of a lot of extra drama, but just that one thing in particular…is it just me, or is that really weird? Because it feels incredibly hostile and isolating. Like, she knows there’s bad blood between me and the other one, and this is so very clearly choosing sides.

    It’s been going on for almost a year now, and I don’t know how to say anything, or if I even should

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