here’s your reality check: does your job suck or are you being too picky?

by Alison Green on March 28, 2019

Three years ago, we did a “reality check” post, stemming from a reader who wrote this:

I wonder if we could have a post/discussion where we can get a “reality check” on whether things are awful or we’re just being picky. I’m also working at my first professional job after graduating from college and often wonder whether things really are dysfunctional/unhealthy here, or if I’m just being a sensitive snowflake and need to suck it up. I’d love to be able to ask people who have been working for longer “Is this normal?*”. I think a lot of us at our first job might not have a reference point to compare to.

* Note: Not so much wondering whether things are “legal,” especially since that’s something I can look up if I want to. I’m more curious as to whether certain things are normal and expected at most companies – if I were to switch jobs, should I expect to see something similar?

If you’re early in your career and still learning what is and isn’t normal, it can be really hard to judge whether your employer is great, more or less okay, or shockingly awful. New grads, for example, often put up with boundary violations, illegal practices, and terrible bosses because they don’t have enough of a frame of reference to realize what is and isn’t normal. And on the other end of the spectrum, they might end up thinking practice X is horrible and worth leaving over, without realizing that it’s normal and common.

So here it is: the second reality check post. Here are the ground rules:

  • If you’re wondering if something your employer or manager does is pretty normal and par for the course, describe it here.
  • You must be specific in your request for an evaluation of normalcy — this is not a post to describe why you don’t like your job or to run down a litany of complaints. It’s for specific practices where you want to find out if something is normal.
  • To make this as useful as possible, limit this to genuine requests for input — not stuff that you already know is horrible.
  • If you feel you have a helpful perspective on someone else’s question, post your answer. (“All employers suck” is not a helpful answer. “That practice isn’t unheard of, but you’ll usually only encounter it at lower-tier firms” is helpful.)
  • If you’re giving input on someone else’s situation, keep in mind that this post is to help people figure out if something is normal, not if it’s fantastic. The difference between “that sucks” and “that sucks but it’s pretty normal” matters here.
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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Please phrase your questions so that you’re being clear and explicit what the piece is where you want to know if something is normal. Please do not post general complaints about your job, or questions outside the scope of this post. (This isn’t an open thread and I want to keep it narrowly focused to keep it useful.)

    1. Hills to Die on*

      Haven’t scrolled all the way down, but this seems to be working pretty well! You could also take questions ahead of time and have voting buttons, similar to ‘Worst Boss of the Year’ votes.

  2. L. S. Cooper*

    I spend a lot of time having pretty much nothing to do– not for lack of asking, but literally because there’s nothing that I can do. The ladies I work for seem to be pleased with my work and make a point of thanking me regularly (like, every time they leave for the day, which sometimes feels awkward but is still appreciated), but I feel like I spend a lot of time just sort of sitting around. I work in retail support, so I spend my time mailing stuff to retail stores, responding to emails, filling out spreadsheets with various reports on business. I’m not sure if I just work too fast, or if this is normal? I’m at least 55% sure that I fall into the category of “spends a lot of time faffing about but gets her work done quickly and effectively”, but it’s so hard to tell.
    (First job out of college, corporate office for a footwear brand, 375 employees at this office location, if any of that is relevant.)

    1. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      Surprisingly normal. In many roles the fact that you *are* there for when you’re needed is as important as whether you’re actually doing anything with every minute of that time.

      2. Bubbleon*

        My company actually tries to give people a little free time in their day so you have the ability to work on things that interest you, or efficiencies you might be able to improve. If there’s anything you see as ineffective, would it interest you to look into improving it, and would your management accept feedback? I’ve done it a few times over the years and even the suggestions that weren’t accepted have been a benefit to my career.

        1. L. S. Cooper*

          I’ve definitely been trying to make some of our processes more efficient– some of our spreadsheets, especially, involved a lot of redundant work. But I get met with mild confusion when I inquire about optimizing stuff. Not negativity, but more of a sense of “Wait, why would you want to bother with something like that”?

          1. Combinatorialist*

            if they don’t object, I would ask if you can do it anyway. Because after it is done, they might appreciate it more, and it is a good accomplishment to use when asking for more responsibility/money/on your resume in the future

          2. Jessica*

            be careful automating/optimising too much… you might optimise yourself right out of a job.

            1. L. S. Cooper*

              Considering that I fully expect this job to be temporary, I think that might be the best situation for all of us!

    2. Natalie*

      Normal, but for what it’s worth it’s also normal to find that kind of downtime terrifically boring and even kind of depressing.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        +100. Definitely also normal to just really dislike having that kind of downtime.

        Signed, someone who really detests having that type of downtime, and will forever be appreciative of the boss that during a job with that downtime (due to waiting on others to complete a work task before I could proceed) allowed me to work on my MS during downtime. And, when I graduated, knit.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This! It’s something I am still struggling with a little and I’ve been in my position for almost a year.

        1. BookishMiss*

          Yes, for a while in my last job, I’d be done with everything by 11 and have 5 hours to do…nothing. At least I was available to un-jam the copier every ten minutes. Made for some long days.

          1. Gumption*

            I had a temp job like that. Got desperately creative. The firm like to start meetings with safety moments so I thought I would create one for when it came to my turn. I created six in the end. Kept my brain active, allowed me to master the new features (at the time) of Windows 7 and a higher up used one because he needed one.

              1. Natalie*

                It’s a brief discussion about safety in the workplace, at home, etc. Sometimes in a manufacturing environment you’ll discuss incidents that happened at a plant to raise awareness about different hazards. In an office environment, though, even if you’re a manufacturing company, you get a lot of safety contacts about being careful walking on ice/snow, watching out for school buses, being careful with ladders, etc.

                The worst one I ever sat through was about eye protection and they showed pictures of people with things sticking out of their eyes to emphasize the importance of wearing your safety glasses.

                1. TardyTardis*

                  That sounds like my husband teaching chemistry class when he was desperately trying to get his little darlings to wear their goggles (though it clearly worked; one student who did 3 to 5 for meth manufacture with time off for good behavior assured my husband that a) no, he didn’t learn that in class, and b) “yes, Mr. X, I always wore my goggles!”).

        2. London Engineer*

          I’m just coming out of a period of this – actually just using zooniverse to do some random data entry to keep myself busy was a lifesaver

          1. wandering_beagle*

            Haha, I use Zooniverse when things are slow, too!! It makes me feel like I’m actually contributing toward something positive!

          2. wittyrepartee*

            Oh! Me too, in the past!

            Now I’m working at a place where I have the ability to create my own research projects. YAY!

            1. turtlepower*

              I am currently in this situation where I have loads of free time. It’s led me to become very familiar with the Ask A Manager archives!

      3. GoTeamS*

        This recently caused me to make a job change. I had too much mental space to wallow about stuff in my own life because I wasn’t busy or engaged at work. So far, making the move has proven to be a good decision. The days go much faster, I feel like I’m using my brain again, and my marketable skills are coming back!

    3. Squeeble*

      Quite normal. I have long spurts like that in my current job and did in my previous job as well.

      I’d say as long as you’re getting things done and your employers aren’t bothered, you’re fine.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think this is normal. I found that when people have not done a task in a long time (or maybe have outdated, less efficient ways of doing a task), they often over-estimate how long a task will take. So, something that may only take you an hour, they think will take you four hours. If they seem happy with your work and truly have nothing else to give you to do, spend your downtime on professional development, working on a tedious longer-term project, or maybe see if you can partner with another department to help their workload.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        I’ve definitely gotten surprised reactions when it comes to how quickly I’ve gotten stuff done, so I think this might play a part. I was supposed to be partnered with another department, but the lead of that department seems to be quite shy about giving me tasks to do.

        1. Michaela Westen*

          Is there a way you can reassure them? Maybe go over there and offer to help with whatever they’re doing. Do small things like filling the copier, handing them supplies, getting water or coffee from the cooler or kitchen. Let them get used to having you help a little at a time.

          1. Burned Happy Helper*

            Honestly, as someone who’s been in this position a couple times, and also faced this early on in her career with her first ever office job,while it sounds like this genuinely might just be a slow-working office with not much to do, for future reference to anyone in this position: please be VERY careful with the “going around and offering to help” stuff or “reassuring” others they can give you work. This can often make you a target for the people in the office who are lazy about getting their work done and will be only too happy to pass it off on you. If your boss is happy with your work and not making an issue of it, I think its safer to try to deal with the downtime as best you can doing professional development: read articles/journals about your job or industry, so that you are “sharpening the sword” and making yourself more hireable and marketable. It’ll only help you be that much more valuable to an employer (even one who has..ahem..more for you to do if you come work there) and give you options. And in the job market, having options is everything.

          2. Michaela Westen*

            When I was young in the 90’s I was always told by supervisors and bosses to help other groups when possible. I got the impression they would not like an employee who didn’t help others. I had colleagues who told me how much they loved my helpful attitude and said I saved them during crunches.
            Maybe things have changed?
            If I understood correctly OP’s boss has told them to help this other group, so IMHO she should keep trying and let her boss know she’s making an effort.
            If it does seem like some lazy person is pushing off their work on her, she should let her boss know about that get direction on how to handle it.

            1. Executive daydreamer*

              Currently a few months into a job in a similar situation: as much as I have been open with my boss about how much capacity I have to take on more work, so far there hasn’t been much passed on. In my previous job I was also underworked but I ended up volunteering to help in other departments; here I caused drama when I asked another manager within my team if I could help with anything as according to my manager it makes her look bad.

    5. gecko*

      Yes, this is normal. The great secret of white collar jobs is that many of them don’t involve working to capacity. Capacity being maybe 80% of your time on a normal day so you have room to expand when crunch-time comes.

      Many (most?) jobs do have more to do, and you can find those, particularly as you move up in the ranks and get more authority and responsibility.

      1. OhGeez*

        Definitely. I think that it’s important to note that as projects come up and your colleagues/superiors get more comfortable with your style and working with you, your days will get fuller. It took a little more than a year for me to be working at 80% capacity. And I’m pretty sure my bosses are still deciding if they like me this busy, because they want a person who can drop everything if something more urgent comes up.

        1. Can't Think of a Name*

          +1

          Whenever we hire someone new in a junior/entry-level role (particularly new grads), they usually have a significant amount of downtime. Not because there’s not work to do, but because we’re still learning about their style/skill/make sure we can trust them with the work we give them. Also because they just simply don’t have the knowledge or experience yet to be working on higher level things (again, I am speaking specifically about entry-level roles). Once someone has a proven track record, that’s when the assignments start to flow in and the workload ramps up.

          Enjoy the downtime, and take it as a chance for your personal/professional development. When I was in your shoes, I read a LOT of AAM, which was both entertaining and helped me adjust to my career.

      2. Hannah Lee*

        Yes, it depends on the role and the job.
        If it’s just an entry level job where they just need a body available if something is needed (like, sitting a reception desk when they get 5-10 visitors a day, or processing the TPS reports quickly every Thursday-Friday with nothing to do in between) fill your time with whatever you see fit that isn’t a drag on something else – reading professional journals, doing coursework, etc. and occasionally offer to your manager, others that you’re available to help on whatever they may need (processing distributions lists, validating databases, whatever, running out to get lunch for a last minute client meeting). It’s a balance between being available to help and being so needy that other people feel like occupying you is more hassle than it’s worth. I’ve known more than one person who has used a job like that as a springboard to a whole career. I’ve also known more than one manager who decided they didn’t really need someone in that role, after all, after the person kept hounding them because they were ‘bored’. Read the room: be eager, hard working and available…but not a nuisance.

        If your job is something more involved with that, here are a couple of ideas, offer to do some of these based on what you see going on around you :
        rolling up your sleeves on grunt work that is helpful but not urgent (for example, is there physical storage that is getting obsolete because no one works with hard copy any more, now they are scanning and workflowing everything?…maybe you could work on scanning documents from the most recent year, and then each year prior and sort and organize so by the end of your assignment, they can call in an offsite shredder, get rid of the hard copies and re-purpose the space without losing access to anything?) In most mid-to large companies, I guarantee you there is someone who has this on their radar but pushed to the back burner (record retention, archival, etc is necessary but neglected in many places, until the cost of physical storage/lease spaces becomes an issue, because no one’s bonus depends on it) but they would love to chip away at it without taking away from their current urgent priorities. If you could do it in an organized, not-half hazard way, so they have documentation of what went where, they will want you on many other projects in the future. ) Also, if you pick the right stack of stuff to go through, you get to read through all kinds of stuff about key clients, previous projects, who worked on what with who, etc. with no one tapping their toe over your research. 95% of it will be uninteresting/obsolete, but 5% will be institutional knowledge that may be worthwhile on future projects. Within a short time, though you may still be a new hire, you’ll know a lot.
        Are there work groups, project teams, etc that need someone to sit in on meetings to take meeting minutes, document action items, email meeting summaries and status updates? That’s a thankless task (a non-promotable task that no one really wants http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/breaking-glass-ceiling-%E2%80%9Cno%E2%80%9D-gender-differences-declining-requests-non%E2%80%90promotable-tasks ) ) but since you’re new, being able to sit in on meetings, see cross-functional teams in action and meet many many people, that experience can be hugely valuable to you. You may even pick up a mentor – someone who you send the draft of the meeting minutes to before distributing them, who reviews and edits them, but also gives you guidance, feedback, information on the informal power structures of the company that you might not be aware of otherwise and who advocates for you on other projects.
        Is there a particular function, specialty that you’re curious about? See if you can be of use to someone in that department. I mean, as long as you might try to get yourself loaned out to another group, why not aim for a group you have interest in? Win-win! And if you can’t find a way to help that group, what about the department right next door? Chatting with people at the nearby copier, coffee machine, elevator can connect you with other projects, people to go out to lunch with, busywork tasks that could lead to something else. (Seriously – I once had a temp job editing/formatting ISO 9000 procedure documents – mindnumbingly dull yet requiring attention to detail. I made friends with people in the cubes near me, in a completely different department. When they were crunched at quarter end, they asked if I’d help out with some data entry. Then they hired me full-time…and within a couple of years was managing half of the department.)

    6. Amber T*

      I wonder if I work too fast sometimes. But I also get overwhelmed with work during certain times in the year. There are certain times of the year that will always be busy, then depending on what the business is doing (not in my department), the rest of the time might be chaotic, or it might be slow. I think if you’re doing the work you have efficiently and well (which it sounds like you are), slow times are just an inevitable part of the business.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      Normal, but you can ask your manager if there are any online courses/personal development you think could benefit the company you could do in downtime? (Bonus points if you find them yourself!)

    8. Alianora*

      That was what my last job was like (except my boss did not care at all about work, and she was only actually in the office working about 20 hours a week). I didn’t like it because it was boring, and I felt like there was no chance to grow or learn at all even though I tried to come up with productive things to do, so I left after 3 months.

      Even that short amount of time has left me with some bad work habits I didn’t have before, like procrastinating in order to stretch out a task. Who knows what it would have done to my work ethic if I’d stayed a year or two.

      1. SoMeta*

        this is 100% me and I was just talking about it with a friend this morning – in my last weeks at a job that has been demoralizing & toxic in many ways and it has absolutely clotheslined my work ethic. I am definitely aware of the damage and know I’ll need to be proactive at my new employer to rediscover that drive I used to have.

      2. AnonDev*

        Yeah I just left a job like that after 7 months, and I feel like it really impacted my attention to detail. Mostly because when you have all day to complete a 1 or 2 hour task, you can half-ass it and double-check later on. Now that I’m starting a new job, I’m definitely nervous about exercising the attention to detail needed.

    9. AccountantWendy*

      It’s normal but I echo Not a Real Giraffe. It is worth asking your boss or other departments if there are other things you can be doing (or learning) when things are slow.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      Normal. That was me during my first year and a half or so at current job. Now I have 3 weeks of hard deadlines that must be met and one week of…almost nothing still. But I usually need it to recover from the previous 3 weeks and deal with all of the low-priority requests/emails that poured in during that time.

    11. S*

      Normal for a job early in your career, AND great opportunity if you choose to look at it that way, because you can actually use that time to further your career. Some possibilities: a) look around, talk to people, and try to identify a couple of problems in your dept. Then come up with a proposal for a solution, and take it to your bosses. b) Many corporations have extensive online learning archives. Take advantage (prioritizing your work, of course) to learn as much as you can – about pretty much anything that piques your interest. Bonus points if you can apply your learning to solve a problem. c) (this is what I did during downtime in my temp days) Become the expert at whatever software you use. Investigate every option on every menu. Read the “help.” Give yourself mini-projects and work through the tough bits. I did this for Microsoft Office in the late 90s and that knowledge (not to mention the self-education habit) is still benefitting me. Learn to build a website or a database. Learn to code. Or, become an expert on something in your business. Become the person who knows your footwear inventory inside and out.

      1. Michaela Westen*

        I did the same thing! I learned about MS Office in the 90’s because I was bored, and next thing I knew they thought I was a wiz. It still benefits me too!

    12. De-Archivist*

      Normal for me. Some days, I’m working hard the whole time I’m here. Most days I literally have nothing to do. Thus far, I’ve taught myself Excel from one of those online course websites, and I’m learning some basic document design through Adobe.

    13. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      Really normal for a first job.

      As you become more senior, this will happen less and less. Keep being efficient and asking if anyone needs help. You’ll have more to keep you busy, and your coworkers/bosses will see you as a team player and when it comes time for annual reviews you can bring it up. If you are doing work for other units, that will also help you earn a reputation there if you wanted to move into a different position at the company.

    14. LQ*

      Normal, but I’d wonder if you’ve been through “busy” season. Places sometimes have a busy time they are staffed for and then it gets quieter at other times, when you stack that with being efficient you get…bored. And on the other side sometimes support work ends up getting quieter when the rest of the business is in busy season which can make things feel strange when you have nothing to do but everyone else is rushing around harried.

    15. Aveline*

      I have a friend who is a long-haul pilot. 90% of the flying of the plane is computerized and rote. He has not insignificant gaps with nothing he really has to do.

      You know why they are paying him? For the 10% of the time they really need him. And the top 1% where it’s life or death.

      Some jobs are like this. They pay you to be there for when they need you and aren’t intending you be on every single second.

      I’ve had receptionists and other office assistants work for me who had a tough time getting that, so I gave them things to learn.

    16. Aunt Piddy*

      TOTALLY normal. As long as you are getting your work done well, that’s what you’re there for!

    17. Jess*

      Normal… and. Figure out what *you* want out of a worklife, and use that downtime to move towards it. If you want to move up in the company or industry, seek out strategic projects or training or help out busier co-workers. If your passion lies outside of work, figure out how you can use the downtime to support your extracurriculars (I saved novel-writing for my personal computer and editing manuscripts for my subway commute, but I researched agents and learned about the publishing industry from my cube). If you want to shift to a different sort of job or industry, seek out all the transferable skills/knowledge you can (I echo what someone said above about learning the ins and outs of software… that has come in SUPER handy time and again… and also stuff like project/time management workshops, etc… whatever free online trainings your employer has that seem even vaguely relevant). And go talk to people. I still remember chatting with the marketing manager for an hour one day fifteen years ago — learned a heck of a lot in that conversation, and clarified that I did NOT want to take that career path and why, but also how what she did related to my job/department, which helped later on.

    18. CoffeeLover*

      It’s normal, but I also don’t think it’s good to stay in that kind of environment for too long because you tend to develop some bad habits. Namely, you can get used to procrastinating and working at a slow pace. It can then be a struggle to jump into a more fast paced environment later on – and there are plenty of those as well.

      Of course it depends on your career goals and priorities, but in my opinion I think you do yourself a disservice working in a slow paced environment early in your career. You won’t learn or grow as much as someone who’s well… working more. There are a lot of great suggestions here for how to get involved in more work, but I also think it’s worth looking at what you’re goals are and if staying in your current role will get you there.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        This job is definitely temporary while I finish up a course for web development, which is what I actually want to do with my life; not a lot of openings at this company for what I want to do. (And two of the perks that I really love about this office will be lost in about a year when we move locations– there’s currently a gym in the office and it’s only an 8 minute drive.) I do tend to prefer a slower pace, but I also don’t like to be bored! I like to go home and know I’ve actually accomplished something. Thanks for the advice!

    19. drpuma*

      Definitely normal, alas. And for perspective from the other side – I once had a boss express frustration with a coworker who wasn’t available for a quick task. Coworker had finished her work for the day and left early rather than sit and occupy herself doing nothing. Your company is paying you to do things, and also to be available for when things need to be done.

    20. Asenath*

      Quite normal, I’d say. And I don’t know if your job is like this – but over the year, there are periods when I’m very busy and putting in lots of time. And others when, really, I don’t have that much to do, and can get through the essentials quite quickly. Another point is, as others have mentioned, it’s useful to my employer that I be here (or I assume that’s true, since this isn’t a seasonal job!). They want me here to respond to stuff the might come up even in the quiet parts of the year.

    21. MoopySwarpet*

      Normal. If you can find something productive to do, it might help you move up the ladder a bit. My first full-time office job was pretty boring for large stretches of time. I taught myself different programs (including photoshop and illustrator) as well as turning to other departments for light tasks (i.e. stuffing envelopes for or with accounting, asking sales about reports they needed or looked at, poking around in the data systems, volunteering to do the lighter data entry portions of unrelated positions, etc.).

      I don’t know if that’s possible where you’re at, but I did similar in a retail customer service position that resulted in being one of 2 people who did the daily drawer count entries. I left because they wouldn’t give me a raise even though I was now doing something completely different than the general floor staff position I had been originally hired to do.

    22. boredworker*

      Yes as others have said it is normal. My jobs is similar. The person before me in my current role was not as comfortable with the job and technology. She often would fall way behind. They ended up taking things away from her as a result. They eventually moved her out of the role, which is why I was hired. I am much more comfortable with the tasks and get a lot of my work done quickly. I have learned to pace my self, sometimes it doesn’t help and I get super bored.

    23. Manana*

      Very normal, particularly when your work is dependent upon requests outside of your immediate office. If your job is to deliver mail and all the mail is already sent out you can’t just create more!

    24. Cassandra*

      Normal. I have an average of several hours of down time per day (and sometimes entire days with no work to do). I think of myself as the emergency standby typist. When they DO need something typed, they need it done quickly, accurately and NOW.

    25. Secretary*

      Very normal. I love having downtime because a) I have lower stress and b) going the extra mile and finding things to do tends to be noticed more, meaning better performance reviews. Also I can listen to music and podcasts while I work.

    26. Amethystmoon*

      Downtime varies based on the job. Sometimes it’s cyclical and jobs will have busy periods. For example, in my last job I did floral item data entry in addition to other products, so Christmas, Valentine’s Day, and Easter/Mother’s Day were our busy seasons.

      You can try asking your manager if there are any projects he/she wants you to do during this downtime. The other thing you can do to fill in downtime is to double-check your work (if you’re not already doing so), review your notes, perhaps type them up into a Word document with screen prints, see if there’s any interesting industry reading material, etc. When I was young, I often filled in the down time by looking up things on Microsoft Office Help that I didn’t know how to do and learned how to do them.

    27. Youth*

      Normal. Also my impression is it’s not uncommon for professional jobs that support products or services to go between really busy and really slow depending on the sales season. Enjoy the downtime while you can because it may not last!

    28. SusanIvanova*

      It might be normal for that kind of job but it’s not necessarily so for all of them, and you might just be in the wrong career. There are jobs, like tech, where there’s always something else to do. The sensible ones realize there are different priorities to them so it’s not a bad thing if some of them never get done, but if you find yourself with enough free time they’re nice to have.

    29. MJ*

      Extremely normal.

      Incidentally, I think I work like you do — faffing about a lot of the time, and then getting my work done super-fast and efficiently the rest of the time. (I’m not the Second Coming or anything, but all my employers have been satisfied-to-impressed with me, so it seems to be working out.) I expect at least in part that it’s just the way our brains work? So I think that can be normal too, although I share your feeling that downtime gets…weird.

      (I have solved this by mostly working from home, transitioning to solely working from home. I work so, so much better this way, but YMMV as always.)

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        I work best if I can do it all at once– I have ADHD and it’s just kind of how I’ve always lived my life. I chill out for a long time, then when work needs to get done, it gets done. (And not low quality work, either, if I dare say so myself.)

        1. aebhel*

          Same. I spend a lot of time screwing around, but I also get my work done efficiently and well in bursts of hyperfocus. All of my performance reviews over the past 6 years I’ve been here have been consistently excellent, so… I guess it’s working? I’d probably have trouble in a fast-paced environment that required a high level of consistent focus, but fortunately that’s not the norm in my field.

          1. Phoenix Wright*

            Same here. For tasks that have dozens of hours assigned I tend to waste the first few days (almost) entirely, and then do bits of work here and there. Most of it gets done in the last few days, and I’m not even rushing to complete it, it’s just that I somehow find it easier to focus when I don’t have much time to spare. That said, I’m completely bored at work and believe it’d be better to move to a more challenging place. Even though I might miss these obscene levels of procrastination, it seems like the best thing to do if I want to avoid ruining my work habits forever, and also to prevent whatever the opposite of burnout may be. There’s only so much procrastination you can indulge in before it begins getting into your head and make you feel you’re wasting your time, and I’m already at that point.

    30. M*

      Not just normal, also the way it *should* be. If you’re working at exactly 100% capacity when everything’s going well, you have no surplus capacity when things go wrong. Good employers have surplus staff capacity at all levels.

    31. anonaa*

      Definitely normal. I’d even say this is a good skill to have – being artfully ready to kick into gear when needed, even when you don’t have a lot to do. That means looking engaged, optics-wise, and actively looking for other things to do/ways to be helpful without pestering anyone. Sometimes what’s needed is exactly what you’re experiencing – there’s downtime, you need to keep up professional appearances during that, but be ready when it gets busy.

    32. Wintermute*

      This is very much the norm for some industries, but not others. In general in my experience the ones that have the most downtime are ones where A) you’re there to handle emergencies, if nothing is breaking it’s going to be pretty slow B) the workload varies a lot based on time of year, day of the month, government budgetary cycle or some other regular pattern, but it’s technical enough, sensitive enough or has enough training and policy encumbrance that seasonal workers are not feasible, C) it’s a position where the volume is not high but latency of response is incredibly important, so having people sit idle to make sure all requests are handled promptly is more important than maintaining high resource utilization D) there’s enough vital work to justify a full-time position (or high-end-enough work you would not easily find someone to do it part time) but they don’t generate enough work to keep a full-time employee busy, and it cannot be rolled into anyone else’s work because they’re all busy or because it requires specialized skills.

      I’d take my lead from other people, your boss, and the health of the business on this one. If your boss is happy with your work and doesn’t seem to think you’re slacking, and your coworkers are happy with your work, AND you don’t get the sense the fact you’re slow is because the business has declining business and thus revenues, then you’re fine.

      I’ve had jobs like this, I’m just wrapping up a contract like this now. It’s glorious, I use the time for online training so I can justify what I’m doing with my days, and position myself better for the next opportunity.

      1. Lyman Zerga*

        I love everything you say here, and especially your category breakdown. My role is very much a type D situation you described above. I often feel a bit of guilt because my workplace created a new position for me to do work that’s perceived as important to our organization but previously had not been done, but there’s not really enough work to fill my time (at least not yet). It could really be done by a two-thirds to three-quarters time person. But it’s a highly specialized, sensitive thing, and it definitely could not be done by other existing staff people (whose plates are very full). So I try to make up for it by always being the person to pitch in on other work when I can. Often I can’t, but my attitude is, I will be at my desk 100% of the time to help if needed, even if the work assigned to my role only takes up 70% of the time.

        1. Wintermute*

          I think you are in a great place, in your situation I would not be worried at all, especially if you’re making yourself “generally useful” as old-timey employment contracts said. Employers hire employees based on a value calculation, if you are adding the value (or preventing the cost in the case of departments like legal, HR, IT and so on) they expect you to you’re in a good place. If you’re bringing added value that’s the cherry on top that gets good reviews and glowing recommendations.

    34. somebody blonde*

      It’s normal, but it’s also worth addressing with your manager if you don’t enjoy it – or even if you do but you have any reason to fear layoffs. One thing I would definitely check if you haven’t been there for a year yet is whether the work is more seasonal- some jobs seem to have endless downtime, but then busy season hits and you get constant overtime for that period.

    35. Nobody Nowhere*

      A lot of jobs also run in cycles. Last week I was running around like a crazy person trying to get everything done. This week I’m reading advice columns because everybody’s kids are on spring break and they’re taking vacation time & absolutely nothing is going on around here.

    37. TrainerGirl*

      Pretty normal. I lucked up and found a 3-month position while I was taking Calculus at a local college to finish my degree. I worked 32 hours/week and mostly sat at the front desk of an IT integration lab in case clients came in. If they did, I gave them a tour but mostly I just sat at the desk, because they wanted a presence there. I was told to “look busy”, so I taught myself Microsoft Office (this was in the 90’s) and brushed up my resume. By the time that job ended, I’d finished the class and found a job. It was pretty boring, but I got paid and learned some skills. I wouldn’t want to do it now, but I wouldn’t knock it.

    38. Kitty*

      Happens all the time at my job. Project schedules get out of sync and so sometimes it’s literally nothing to do for days when waiting on other stakeholders, and other times its 5 different deadlines in one week! Fun times.

    39. Shoes On My Cat*

      Pretty normal for first job in a specific industry! Lots of great suggestions here! Perhaps you can ask your boss for 10 minutes once a week. (And keep it to ten! Stay focused. Show you are reliable about her time constraints.
      !) Ask each time if there is anything you can take off her plate *this week* (overwhelmed managers do better with short term asks), keep asking once per weekly meeting even if the answer is “No, you are doing great.” because it will start to get her thinking about things you could do for her and that is the best thing! Small things you do reliably, with questions as appropriate to show you are comfortable asking for help when you are not sure -also reliably- will make her more comfortable giving you more tasks that she can rely on you to do, ask questions about, flag if there is a bottleneck. This may take time, but it’s a great practice for getting through the door once you’ve got your proverbial foot in there. Most of my promotions and lateral transfers happened this way!

    40. Elan Morin Tedronai*

      Normal.

      In my job now I have periods where I spend the day playing games in the office, but also times where I work 14 hours a day. Most decent employers won’t really have an issue with your “spends a lot of time faffing about but gets her work done quickly and effectively” thingy as long as you deliver.

    41. Shoes On My Cat*

      Another idea when you are at loose ends? Take an online keyboarding coarse or three! It makes you look busy and being a fast and accurate typer in an office position will always be a great skill! -I took *typing*! in high school as an alternative to calculus and that was one of the best career choices EVER! Being able to touch type even just 32wpm has had an impact even on my field work jobs, much less my office based jobs…including programming. Good Luck!

    42. Cygda*

      I’m also having this sort of issue. I’m going from a more blue collar “if you aren’t doing anything, something better be wrong” type of job to a more relaxed white collar type (at the same company) and it’s a bit of a culture shock. I don’t handle too much downtime well and sort of feel like I’m “stealing” company time, because in the previous title, that’s EXACTLY what the company would consider it.
      My question is… what’s common for people to do in downtime? Online courses? Do you clear that with your supervisor? For hopefully apparent reasons, I would rather not ask my supervisor directly.

    43. Everything’sFine*

      I don’t have advice, just commiseration! I just came off 15 years as a high school teacher where there’s no such thing as downtime and you’re “on” all day. I’m now at a nonprofit and I’m so, so bored much of the time. I spend a lot of time waiting to get feedback/approval from other people on projects so there’s a lot of waiting around. I also work really fast and have had to train myself to slow down. Upper management seems pretty busy…but also pretty stressed. So I’m trying to convince myself that’s it’s ok to have time to breathe and I need to readjust to a nonteacher pace.

    44. Manders*

      This is VERY normal, especially for entry-level admin/support jobs.

      Some people love it, but some get antsy and really need project-based work. I’m in the second category and I felt much better when I switched to a job where I could take on as many projects as I could get done in a day. There’s nothing wrong with you if you do prefer this sort of job though, you’re not lazy or cheating the company out of work they aren’t even assigning you.

    45. Checkert*

      I’ve experienced various versions of this from stare at a wall level of boredom to things to do that just don’t last a long time but are impactful and necessary. I will say something I struggle with is working too quickly! I tend to not like to spend a ton of time on one thing and prefer to knock it out and get it done. In my current position I have had to learn how to slow down and really spend time on high QUALITY. While my quality didn’t suffer before, I am now having to produce client-ready deliverables that have no opportunity for iterative improvement. It forces me to work slow and careful, and spending far more time putting the finishing polish on products and brought me to down to a much more average pace.

    47. Jt*

      Since this is your first job, then doing nothing major and having free time is normal. However, if you want to move up or do more, then you might have to prove yourself or leave for a different role.

  3. No Tribble At All*

    Is it normal to have to submit original paper copies of your receipts for expense reports?

    Our /new/ system requires your to scan and upload receipts to the expense website, which is fine, and then to mail the originals receipt to corporate HQ. I’m baffled that we have to snail mail the original paper receipt when we have to upload a picture as well. It’s the third millennium — accept my digital copies!

      1. AnnaBananna*

        The scanning part is just to approve the expense quickly so nobody is stuck with late fees. The hard copies are for audits. This is especially important in financial retail companies, in my experience. Though some departments at my current role also demand hard copies.

        That said, I have read the audit will take soft copies so I’m not sure the purpose of a double dip. I’m assuming institutional knowledge drift, eg. ‘because Margo did it before she retired and she said she needed it when we were audited 17 years ago’.

    2. Natalie*

      The IRS themselves doesn’t require you keep paper copies of receipts. I’d call this abnormal (and silly).

    3. ENFP in Texas*

      Fortune 50 cube resident here – We are allowed to upload digital receipts to the expense system, however we must retain the originals in in our files for 12 months in case of an audit. In smaller firms, it might not be so far fetched that they want to have originals of all receipts in one central area.

      1. Bubbleon*

        This is interesting to know, I don’t know if I would’ve thought about audits as a reason to keep hard copies. Are you required to keep them individually, or is the company required to store them together? I’d understand the first but the second feels like a stretch.

        1. TootsNYC*

          If I thought I might have to produce those receipts for an audit, I would probably demand they be sent to me right away, so I *could* put them all in one spot. Think how much easier that would make my job during the audit, to be able to grab 12 monthly folders and hand them over.

          And think how much HARDER my job would be if I had to go back to every one of the people whose expense reports were being scrutinized, and ask them IF they had kept those receipts, and whether they could find them, and then have them send them to me.

          If you send them in right away, as part of the reimbursement process, then I know you’ll do it, and I’ll have it.

        3. JB*

          As mentioned above, the IRS accepts scanned documents. I was told this by an auditor auditing my company.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        It’s not universal but it is common to require original receipts. At a former employer, we had the same system as ENFP in Texas; scan and send your reciepts, but keep the originals in case there was a question or an audit. At my current place of employment, finance wants the originals included with the expense report.

      3. Engineer Girl*

        I meant to reply to this. My company also requires this, even though they had digitized everything.

    4. Cube Ninja*

      The original copies you send to HQ are almost certainly being scanned *again* as part of the company’s accounting records. I think this one is very dependent on specific company practices, but I don’t think it’s too far out of the norm. A bit on the silly side, though.

    5. KEG*

      The only thing I can think of is that some people do a terrible job scanning and some things are illegible, or receipts overlap. That could be remedied by simply asking the person to re-scan though. Probably just a company/accounting department that hasn’t gotten with the times.

      1. TootsNYC*

        think of the work of having to individually ask people to rescan.
        I have sympathy for the idea of simply demanding them, and filing them, and then you have them for audit or rescanning.

    6. Ruth (UK)*

      At my company, original receipts are preferred but scans/digital copies are acceptable. I think requiring original receipts doesn’t sound way outside of the norm for me, but it’s becoming less common. (I am administrative and process expense claims for my department).

    7. Anonym*

      Maybe semi-normal? My large Fortune 100 employer *just* moved away from mailing the paper receipts last year, on top of scanned copies. It’s not ideal, but not totally random if they’re just super cautious about digital everything all the time. Deserving of a sigh and internal eyeroll, though.

    8. Rose*

      Yeah, this is old fashioned a little out of date, but not abnormal per se. Companies are moving away from this, but some still require it.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        We have some accountants who demand original receipts and paper, signed travel approval forms that were actually phased out several years ago now! But the old guard keeps asking for them, even when the CFO herself has said it’s unnecessary. It’s ridiculous, but I always tell me team to just do it because it means they’ll get their reimbursement faster.

    9. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

      That’s exactly what I had to do until about 6 months ago when we got a new system. Companies are slow at letting go of paper, sadly, perhaps in the misguided assumption that it’s a requirement for audit trails (I’m in the UK).

    10. Amber T*

      I don’t know about “normal” but I know our office does the same. We prefer originals – scans are “okay” but not preferred. For us, I think it’s a combination of doing more than necessary for regulatory purposes, and the fact that it’s what’s always been done, so therefore should always be done (we tend to be a bit slow catching up on technology sometimes). (The fact that it’s a new system for you does seem a bit odd though.)

    11. BlueWolf*

      That does seem odd. Is corporate HQ outside the U.S.? I’ve dealt with some companies in Japan (not for expenses, but when sending our invoices) who still require that we send hard copies of our invoices as well as sending them electronically “so they can compare them”.

      1. Hekko*

        In the Czech Republic, originals of receipts are actually required for accounting. We can enter the receipt in the books based on a copy, but we have to file the original.

    13. Susan Calvin*

      Gonna go with “normal”, because even my employer does it – a large software company otherwise *all* about digitalization. Although it might depend on your local legislature, German tax authorities require you to keep ungodly amounts of paper for x number of years, this might fall under that. If laws in your location are different, maybe your org really is just a bit old fashioned.

    14. Mockingjay*

      My company requires the same: scan and upload to our claims database, then provide the original paper receipts to Accounting. A lot of receipts are electronic now, so I have to print to provide a paper copy anyway.

      I think this practice will simply fade away in the next few years.

    16. Akcipitrokulo*

      Depends I guess – we do paper only here. If you’ve got a digital copy (eg booked travel online) then you need to print it out and attach it.

    17. Wish I traveled more!*

      At my large corporation, scans are used for all the approvals etc, originals are mailed in a special envelope. I kind of suspect that they never open the envelope except in some extraordinary circumstances, and it is otherwise filed away in a box somewhere.

    18. OhGeez*

      It might depend on what kind of contracts or auditing your company undergoes. We are usually being audited by at least one entity at any given time, and some auditors are….cranky. Regardless, many federal contracts require original receipts. The scanned receipt process might be for internal reasons and the originals for external (i.e. you get reimbursed once they receive the scans, but the originals are for outside audits).

      1. Safetykats*

        Normal. I work for a federal contractor, and specific types of records are required to be originals. OP can probably look at the company’s records retention policy to see whether this is really a requirement or jus someone’s preference, but for me, as long as I was actually getting reimbursed, I wouldn’t waste any more time worrying about it.

      2. CaptainLaura*

        +1 to this. If your work has any contract relationship with the Federal Government, there are some archaic and nonsensical rules about receipt retention. At least when I was still in this business, the Fed auditors 1) won’t tell you if your process efficiencies will be allowed ahead of an audit, and 2) were running 3-4 years behind in their audits. Making a mistake and not catching it for several years is…very expensive.

    19. CL*

      They’re probably suing a built-in redundancy since it’s a new system. Once they know keeping everything electronic is working, they’ll probably do away with hard copies. We recently switched credit card companies and now have the ability to upload receipts. We are still using the previous system of logging and retaining hard copies, but they are looking to eliminate that at the end of the year, as long as there are no glitches.

    20. Hiking in Heels*

      We have folks scan receipts and send them in, but they need to keep copies in case there’s an issue with the scans like they cut off or are too blurry. Also, it’s easier to make copies of originals – I submit $500k in reimbursements to the federal government, and we’ve had issues with legibility of the scanned images, particularly if they’re scanned and printed and then scanned again. Your fiscal policy and audit procedure also may still focus on paper records vs digital – it’s a tough transition for any office, but especially one of size with a variety of skill levels in the technology department.

    21. Elizabeth Proctor*

      My old job did this too. It was a fairly large, Catholic university. Not really with the times… We didn’t even have an expense website though, we had to tape paper copies to 8×11 sheets of paper for it all to be filed away.

    22. The Cosmic Avenger*

      My employer has less than 500 employees, and the last time I had to attach paper receipts we were probably under 200 people. So IMO, no, not normal.

    23. CAA*

      It may depend on your industry. Some regulatory agencies and government auditors still ask for original receipts during audits.

    24. Observer*

      Silly, but surprisingly common. Not so much that I would EXPECT it, but common enough that I would not raise my eyebrows.

      Maybe ask why they require the paper copies?

    25. Kimmybear*

      Totally normal if you work on government contracts or with international offices. In some countries, original receipts and “wet” (ink on paper) signatures are still legally required.

    26. Not in US*

      It might depend on what country your in. In my company, we do this. The answer from Finance is that CRA (Canada’s equivalent to the IRS) does not accept most scanned copies as original source documents. Not sure if that’s actually true or not, but that’s what I’ve been told.

      1. Lil Sebastian*

        As a fellow Canadian, I strongly suspect that might not be true. My company (a post-secondary institution) has an online system where we just have to submit pictures or digital copies of receipts. The system has been in use for a couple years. I can’t imagine that as a quasi-government institution CRA would let us get away with using this system if they needed originals. Who knows?!

        1. CanadaTag*

          As a side note, I just popped into the CRA website. I didn’t do a lot of searching, but apparently anything to do with owning a farming business requires original documents/copies of receipts, so it looks like it depends on what type of business it is, whether they need just electronic receipts or also original paper ones.

    27. Kathleen_A*

      Original receipts were required where I work until about 3 years ago, when they started accepting copies. Now, of course, we’re all paperless, but as I said, up until quite recently, it was normal for here, though perhaps weird for other places. But from my perspective, I’d categorize it as “a little outdated, maybe, but still normal.”

    28. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Outdated, but not unheard of. In this case, inefficient and should be changed. Roll your eyes and comply.

    30. K8theGr8*

      I am also at an organization that hasn’t caught up with the times or the regulations and have to submit “original” receipts for any travel reimbursements when scans would be so much more efficient.

    31. De Minimis*

      Not quite normal, especially for a larger organization. I’m guessing some higher-up may be behind the times and wants paper backup for everything. If this were a small business, it would be normal.

    32. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I work in higher ed, and every university I’ve worked for (three) required paper copies in addition to scanned copies. It’s probably industry dependent!

      1. Ginger Sheep*

        Yup. Out of three universities I worked for, two required paper copies, and the other accepted them (but scanned documents were accepted as well). I believe it is still very common in the academic world.

        1. Former Young Lady*

          Yup squared! I work for a university which is slowly moving away from paper copies. One major fear, historically, is double-dipping — say a professor from your university is a guest speaker at my university, and each school is reimbursing her for SOME of the expenses. Both schools have an interest in making sure she’s not double-dipping a particular expense. Or, two travelers from the same university could try to submit for reimbursement of the same expense. In the old days, requiring hardcopy originals was one more safeguard against this. Now, it’s not enough anyway — I’ve caught, on audit, travelers accidentally* submitting two printouts of the same PDF, and the reimbursement processor didn’t notice.

          My university is about to step away from the requirement, but it’s been a long time coming.

          Short version: we can’t rely on 20th-Century policies to protect us from 21st-Century fraud, waste, and abuse. Internal audit has a fiduciary obligation to get with the times.

    33. Risha*

      It was weird and annoying but tolerable until you got to the hugging, and then it was a world of NO NO NO NO NO.

    34. Nessun*

      I work for a massive accounting firm, and this is our standard practice too. We have all kinds of digital capabilities, but we continue to send paper copies of receipts with expense claims. I agree it’s frustrating, but it is a standard for the 6,000 people at my firm in Canada alone.

    35. Jadelyn*

      You have to SNAIL MAIL them??? No. That is really, really not normal, especially if you’re using an online expense website as well. Someone in your accounting department is a Luddite and doesn’t trust the online system, sounds like – and I say that because I’ve got the same issue with one of my coworkers who wants us to snail-mail employee documents because she doesn’t trust the online document management system.

    36. Merci Dee*

      I work in the accounting department for a manufacturing facility, and we moved to an online accounting document program several years ago. Everything is scanned and submitted through our “paperless” system, but expense reimbursements must have a printed copy of the accounting doc with the original receipts attached. Only difference with the paper copies is that they don’t have to signatures, since the document is flowing through the approval process for the online system. We keep the original receipts for audit purposes, and because sometimes the scans aren’t so great if the receipt itself is kind of low-quality (ink running out in the receipt printer, etc.). There are a handful of reasons that companies can choose to keep the originals, and it’s been a normal practice at other places I’ve worked in the past (regional bank, state government, etc.).

    37. Asenath*

      It varies. My employer is very conventional this way and absolutely insists on original documents being presented. They will sometimes make an exception if you make a notarized statement as to why you don’t have proof that you spent $X on Y. I always assumed that this is their way of keeping cheating down, but I know not all employers do things this way.

    38. RPCV*

      Doesn’t seem normal to me. Scanned copies are required when expense reports are submitted at my large corporate employer and I don’t think they’d have any idea what to do with a paper copy.

    39. BTDT*

      My previous low-budget non-profit employer required original paper receipts. My DH’s Fortune 10 company does not. So it’s normal to me for less tech-advanced companies. Not so in large corporations.

    40. Triceratops*

      I work for a government contractor, and this is normal for us. They are legally required to have the original receipts for travel expenses. I can’t speak to other industries, but if any of your travel relates to any government contracts or money, I think it’s normal.

      1. loremipsum*

        I work for a state government agency. When I started a few years ago I would calculate my travel expenses in an Excel spreadsheet and email it on the last day of the month, along with scanned receipts. Last year it was requested that we can continue to do this but to also print out the expense report and receipts copied on a sheet of paper, and mail it to the central office.

    41. Galahad*

      At my Fortune 50, this was very normal. I even had to scan the receipts in one format (by client) for payroll, (because you don’t want a receipt for client A showing up on the scan for client B) then retape them to the letter paper and send them in physically in another format (by date). Good news is that this only lasted 18 months before they figured out that they could audit by the scanned receipts.

    42. Jules the 3rd*

      Fortune 50 cube resident here too – this was our company’s requirement up until 5 years ago. It may still be, but I haven’t traveled in a while. Tech company, no less.

    43. Lady Blerd*

      I think it’s company specific.For us they want original copies but they’ll takea statutory declarations if you don’t have them for small things like taxi or parking receipts. I’ve also submitted emailed receipts with no issues.

    44. University Minion*

      I spend a significant percentage of my time at work fighting the scourge that is obsolete shadow systems for new business processes. “But we’ve always done it this way” is a monster that can’t die fast enough. Chances are that even though the physical receipts aren’t at all necessary for the present system, they’re still being archived somewhere because that’s what they did in the paper system and nobody’s thought about whether or not it’s still necessary.

    45. TechieRose*

      Fortune 500 company here – up until only a few years ago we had to do this process for anything over a certain dollar amount. Seemed like a policy that had been present for a long time and just took quote a bit of work to evolve to where scanned/copied receipts are good enough.

    46. The Tin Man*

      At my company we have two different types of company cards – one for travel and entertainment and the other for Operations. For the T&E card scanning the receipts is the procedure and for the Operations card they have to interoffice the physical receipts. I am lucky that I have the first kind!

    47. KittiesLuvYou*

      My job requires this as well. We upload receipts and then I walk the paper over to my business manager. I work in a holding company of a mega corporation. In our situation it’s in case there’s either an internal audit from the mothership or an IRS audit.

    48. Mbarr*

      My multinational software company accepts digital scans, but you have to hold on to the hardcopies for 12 months afterwards.

      BUT – I know that in other countries, there are legal hard copy requirements. (E.g. You can scan your receipts, but the company won’t reimburse you till they receive the hard copies too.) Not sure what the rationale is…

    49. NACSACJACK*

      Fortune 100 company – we did a year ago, not sure about now. I think it depends on Accounting and the Expense system.

    50. Adalind*

      I worked in Accounts Payable years ago (auditing expense reports) and we had to have original receipts. It’s for audit purposes. I believe they eventually went to a scanned system and still needed originals. I’m not sure what they do now. The current company I work for just wants scanned receipts submitted via their online system.

    51. Dulcinea*

      The nonprofit where I work receives a lot of government funding and the funding agreement requires original receipts be retained for everything over $3 in case there’s an audit. At least that’s what the finance person says.

    52. Samwise*

      A ridiculous but normal practice in a fair number of places. Keep your own paper and digital copies as backups.

    53. 1.2 years until retirement*

      Current company – scanned are submitted, but original paper must be kept for a year.
      Previous company (Fortune 500) – original paper receipts submitted with expenses.

    54. Artemesia*

      We always had to do this; copies were not accepted; we had to submit the real thing. They seemed to fear that somehow if copies were used, we would find ways to get another organization to pay and double dip (like for a conference trip where the organization might pay some expenses if you were on the programs etc). And not only did they have to be original but they had to in restaurants actually who exactly what was ordered as they didn’t reimburse alcohol for minions (I am sure the C suite was expensing their Champagne — in fact I know they were). I once had a request returned because the McDonald’s receipt I used (credit card receipt I think) did not list the items and so this $9 bill couldn’t be reimbursed because I hadn’t proved I hadn’t spent anything on alcohol in this meal. Yes they were that ridiculous.

    55. JJ*

      I don’t have to keep the originals once I scan them in but I hang onto them until the expense report is fully approved and paid, and I keep all digital receipts in a separate folder in my inbox.

    56. Sue A McCrory*

      My institution (a SLAC) requires me to submit electronic copies of things purchased on our institution CC, but I still have to retain originals for at least a year. So things I order from Staples, for instance, I have the electronic receipt which I submit monthly, but have to keep an original (it’s supposed to be a printed paper copy kept in a file, but I just keep them as electronic copies and will print if asked). Receipts like hotel bills that we only have a paper copy for are submitted as originals; that would include meal receipts when traveling.

    57. pattm*

      School district business offices are required to collect and retain original receipts for 7 years. As you go through your annual audits, the audit team will request hard copies of documents. We are also required to keep hard copy payroll documents, too.
      As a side note, we had a department assistant use a Pcard to purchase personal items (several thousand dollars) and submitted scanned receipts that had been doctored. It wasn’t immediately caught, but the CC company noticed the unusual activity, which kicked off an internal investigation.

      1. Observer*

        If someone is doctoring documents, they can do a pretty good job with paper, too. It’s a lot easier than most people realize. Especially if you have access to a scanner and color printer.

    58. Wintermute*

      Not normal. Unless it’s an audit I’ve never seen a company that didn’t use the digital copies. As others have mentioned they have had records retention policies and asked for hard copies if they were suspicious about something but that was exceedingly rare and usually warranted.

    59. Karo*

      I also have to do both – my old company required originals, no copies or scans. So: normal, but silly.

    60. THAT girl*

      Some companies request original receipts to avoid the possibility of an employee submitting the receipt more than once.

    61. Lisa*

      Has your company been around for a very long time? I worked at a 30-something-year-old mega-corp and we didn’t transition away from paper receipts until about six years ago. Almost everything else had gone paperless by that point. In our case, we stopped using paper receipts as soon as we had a tool that allowed scans and uploads. Prior to that, we had a system for about ten years where the expense reports were digital, but the receipts had to be mailed in (and we had to retain paper photocopies in case they got lost). Prior to that, everything was paper. It’s possible that at your company, when they brought in the new system, they didn’t change the policy about sending in the paper copies.

      1. Cathie from Canada*

        When I worked for the Saskatchewan government in the 1980s, their expense claim forms still had a space for “livery” where you could claim the cost of stabling a horse — the form was designed that way in 1905, when we became a province, and nobody since had udated it. I wonder if anybody ever has since.
        I think outdated processes don’t get changed just because nobody has the authority to change them unilaterally and nobody wants to bother spending the time it would take to change them collegially.

    62. FloralsForever*

      This is normal. I don’t believe it is that common any longer, but I work at an organization where something like this may occur. When companies upgrade tech systems, it does not mean they upgrade their audit requirements, as that comes from an outside organization at our company. Or they may not know to upgrade all the processes that go along with the tech upgrade as happens in my company as well. (I’m honestly baffled that my company doesn’t use digital signatures, but oh well!) It can be frustrating to deal with paper copies, but my guess is a lot of higher ups have to align on change and they’re more concerned with alignment on that single thing, that they forgot to address all the other things that go along with it.

    63. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      It’s pretty normal. It depends on your employer. At a previous job, we had to send our original receipts via inter-office mail. At my current job, we scan them and email with our expense reports.

    64. MissDisplaced*

      Mixed: I worked for a very large company that required the exact same thing. Real pain, but normal. I think this is gradually going away though.

    66. Software Engineer*

      If you’re in Europe or maybe your company is in Europe it’s common. Now that I’ve moved to an overseas office of my American based company we even have to print out our Uber receipts from our email to send in a ‘paper’ copy!

    67. Serafina*

      It’s not required by the IRS, but may be part of your company’s fraud detection program. A comparison of a sample of original receipts to those submitted electronically can detect doctored receipts.

    68. Susana*

      I’ve always had to tape my original receipts to a piece of copy paper – I guess so they have the originals, but also have them in easy-to-file, scannable form. So not so abnormal.

    69. Five after Midnight*

      Here is something I learned recently: if you are a US company which wants to reclaim VAT from European countries for purchases made there (e.g. business travel) you are required to submit the original paper receipts (scanned images are not sufficient). This is in direct contrast to EU companies which can use electronic images for the same purpose. Therefore, we may actually go from scan-only to requiring employees to submit the paper originals for their European expenses.

    70. Maria*

      Late to this, but FWIW, in the non-profit/government funded world, original receipts is 100% required for audits. To expedite processing, scanned copies are allowed for employees who work remotely and have to mail originals, but the reimbursement will not be issued until the originals are received.

  4. no hugs 4 me*

    Current company makes us do a company cheer (in an office setting — not a Wal-Mart.)
    We recently had a meeting where we were told to say “hi” and “bye” to everyone when we enter and exit the office.

    Upper management hugs everyone when they visit an office. The company describes itself as a family, and I’ve noticed a lot of employees using that word too in a positive way. (“We’re like a big family, it’s great!”)

    This is not my first job out of college, but it is my first job in such a forced-friendly setting. The culture is making me very uncomfortable so far.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        To expand on that: This is super boundary crossing and even veers into cult-like behavior.I’m not being glib. They will likely exploit your emotions to get loyalty/free work/anything they can out of you, but have no problem letting you go if they need to cut costs.

        Get out of there fast. If you can’t get out yet because of your resume, find a mentor or friend in a more normal setting who is willing to let you bounce ideas off them so they can give you a second opinion on what’s okay and what isn’t.

              1. disconnect*

                If I were your dad and you called me, I’d make a temporary exception. This is bullshit.

        2. no hugs 4 me*

          Thank you. I have been looking but it’s frustrating to be job searching again within a year, and I’m not sure how I’d justify leaving to recruiters yet.

          I thought the “family” thing was odd (as Alison’s discussed that stuff in the past), but I figured it was a benign lost-in-translation kind of thing, as the headquarters is international.

          Then I learned the cheer on the first day (ಠ_ಠ)

          1. BookishMiss*

            “My bosses hug us.” If I were interviewing you, that would be a very reasonable reason for leaving. Just reading about it, my eyes popped out of my head.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              yeah, this.

              I’d probably try to find something more neutral, like ‘new opportunity’ or ‘job not as described’, but I think most interviewers would understand if you said, ‘Upper management hugged everyone when they visited, and I was not comfortable with that.’

              1. no hugs 4 me*

                Yeah I really dislike it :( I’d talk to “HR” about it but she does the same thing. Big sigh.

            3. Totally Minnie*

              Take it one step farther and say “My bosses pressure staff to hug them.” This is what is happening. You’re being pressured to touch people and be touched by people whether you want to or not, and that’s 100% not okay.

          2. Can't Think of a Name*

            You could say something like, “Unfortunately, the company has some issues with boundaries, and I’ve quickly realized it was an unhealthy culture.” This might help you screen out places that have similar boundary-issues. But really you can just go with “my bosses and HR insist on hugging me” and anyone reasonable will understand

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Plus side, it’s these boundaryless “We’re like a family–or else! Now hug!” offices that offer the best fodder for crazy tales of your past jobs. The villains aren’t going to twirl their mustaches–they’re going to talk earnestly about how you’re all a family, and family are the people you call when you need to dump a body.

        Like a cross between being in a sitcom office and the mafia.

        1. SebbyGrrl*

          ? :) I see what you did there?

          MFM meets Captain Awkward?

          Or accidental metaphor blend?

    3. Peridot*

      I don’t blame you. That would make me uncomfortable too. Saying hello to everyone seems a bit much to me, but I can understand the rationale behind it. Hugs and cheers puts it in the realm of a preschool, not a workplace.

      1. GRA*

        Even preschools are moving away from hugs, and are teaching kids about consent with their bodies. Hugs to all in the workplace is NOT OKAY and NOT NORMAL!

        1. Peridot*

          You’re right, and I didn’t even think about consent issues and people being pressured to let other people touch them. Especially upper management, who have power over your career.

    4. jenividivici*

      Nooo this is not normal to me and I would be on the lookout for signs that this company uses “family” as a manipulation tactic to discourage you from advocating for yourself.

    7. Jamie*

      None of that is normal, with the exception of the describing itself as family thing. I’m uncomfortable just reading about it.

      The “we’re all family” here is as common IME as it is stupid. I like the people I work with but if the paychecks stop coming I will stop seeing them, and I’ve never audited a family member (although I would like to issue corrective actions to some on occasion.)

      My current company doesn’t do the family thing, but most I’ve worked with have (especially if a family owned business) and IME it’s often code for people who expect loyalty outside the bounds of what is reasonable in a professional relationship and issues with boundaries.

    8. facepalm*

      Alison has actually addressed this: search the site on “your workplace isn’t your family — and that’s OK”

      ““We’re like family here.”
      Not words you should want to hear from an employer.
      I did a Q&A with the New York Times about why that phrase tends to pop up at dysfunctional workplaces — and tends to breed more dysfunction too — as well as how you can navigate that kind of culture and a healthier way to view work.”

      1. no hugs 4 me*

        I read that before I started noted the red flag during the interview process. But the HQ is international so I thought maybe they just meant well. Sigh.

      2. Karen from Finance*

        I once had a supervisor (male) who would refer to my coworkers/other females he managed as my “sisters”. As in “Well until your sister hands in the Teapot Handle Data, I can’t really do the Teapot Report, can I?”. He was only slightly older than us, too.

        The problem with being “a big family” at work is that family dynamics start to happen, you don’t want that. I agree with everyone, run.

        1. no hugs 4 me*

          I’m thankful that your experience still sounds bizarre to me — our office doesn’t take the family dynamics that far and I haven’t been totally desensitized by the weirdness! That’s crazy though and I hope work is more normal for you now.

    9. Master Bean Counter*

      Not normal. And this tactic is usually used to breed bad loyalty in lieu of raises and other real signs of appreciation.

    11. Akcipitrokulo*

      NO!!!!

      Saying you have to acknowledge people you meet on way in or out – that can be normal. Requiring you to go round everyone is definitely not normal.

      And hugging everyone? No. Just no.

    14. Mr. Shark*

      No, this is not normal. I don’t have a problem if a company actually feels like a family because the management treats people well (although some people seem to think it’s boundary crossing no matter what), but if it’s forced like this…ugh! A company cheer? Hopefully that’s not first thing in the morning when I would still be crabby and waking up. Even saying hi and bye would get tiring immediately.

      And hugs for everyone when they visit–that is certainly boundary crossing.

    15. Hiking in Heels*

      I’ve sent this in startups and nonprofits where the boundaries tend to be blurrier than a startight corporate setting. It works for some people, but can make you feel more devoted to your company than you need to (and can be healthy).

      Daily hugs would be a dealbreaker for me. Even if something is legal or somewhat normal doesn’t mean it’s right for you.

    17. Lora*

      I’ve seen sales departments or very individual up close and personal sales focused companies (think: car dealerships, real estate, door to door, something where they have to approach you very individually) do cheers and whatnot. Not a regular company. And no hugging, what in the actual?

    18. BookLady*

      I don’t think this is normal. In my experience, companies that do this will eventually use it against you: “We’re family here. Wouldn’t you do anything for your family??”

      Being forced to say “hi” and “bye” is a little odd, but seems like a misguided way to cultivate camaraderie more than anything else. Hugs from upper management is definitely not normal and out of line.

      1. Booknerdish*

        Could we please hear the company cheer? I’m morbidly curious about this, and NO, this is not normal.

        1. no hugs 4 me*

          There are two actually. Not sure how interesting they are, though I dread them both.

          One person says “Let’s go!”
          Everyone else: [COMPANY NAME]!

          Alternatively, everyone gathers around and puts their hands together.
          One person: “1… 2… 3!”
          Everyone else: [COMPANY NAME]!

            1. no hugs 4 me*

              I have social anxiety so I am very much not a fan of it!

              It’s been really validating to read everyone’s opinions. Thanks for your reply.

          3. teclatrans*

            This is reminding me a bit of a Korean drama I watched recently (The Book of You). It is set in a publishing company, and there is a company motto that people
            fervently shout out. I think they do some sort of company cheer, too. That sort of cultural difference doesn’t translate well across cultures.

            1. LunaLena*

              I’m Korean-American, spent several years in Korea, and worked for a Korean company here in the US where everyone except for me was born in Korea. A company cheer is still be weird. The only way I can see it even in Korean culture is during a team-building retreat or exercise a la Takeshi’s Castle or something like that, and even then, it would be something along the lines of “[company name], FIGHTING!”

              (“[name], FIGHTING!” is a common cheer in Korea, on par with “let’s go, [name]!”

          4. Booknerdish*

            OMG. Thank you for this. I work in a public library, so now I picture the staff gathering around to put their hands in the circle and whispering:
            “Let’s go!”
            Everyone: “Hometown Public Library! Shhhhh!”

          5. annakarina1*

            I joked to myself that the company cheer would be like the Bundy family cheer on Married with Children: “Whoooaaa Bundy!” I see it’s not that different.

          6. Cassandra*

            I almost hate this MORE than if the cheer was elaborate and goofy. Ugh. I hope you can hang in there ’til something much better comes along.

    21. Risha*

      It was weird and annoying but tolerable until you got to the hugging, and then it was a world of NO NO NO NO NO.

    22. Elizabeth West*

      The only time I’ve ever run into a company cheer was at a non-profit dealing with college programs. It seemed very contrived and silly to me. Forced hugs are a HUGE nope.

      And employers are NOT family; I wish they’d stop referring to themselves as such. I see this more often in smaller companies. It’s not positive; it’s an excuse to make you feel bad about using your benefits, IMO.

    23. Jadelyn*

      Noooooope! Nope, nein, non, nah, newp. Not normal.

      I am from a fairly huggy culture – Bay Area, California – so hugs are pretty normal when greeting people you don’t see often. But it’s by no means universal, and there are some execs from other offices who I do hug when I see them, some I come shake hands, and some I just wave from my desk. I can’t imagine treating hugs as some kind of default expectation for everyone.

      Also, forcing people to do a “company cheer” just…really reads as creepy and cultlike to me? Maybe that’s overreacting, but that’s almost as uncomfortable to me as the hugs thing.

    24. Asenath*

      I would find this decidedly weird. A company cheer? I’ve read of such things but never experienced it.

    26. Sleepytime Tea*

      Company cheers are surprisingly common, in my experience. Some idiot out there decided this was a good way to improve morale and it has been a thing at at least two companies I have worked for out of 5.

      There’s a difference between normal and common, though. I still don’t think it’s normal, and of the companies I’ve worked where this was done, most of the people there thought it wasn’t normal. It really did seem like an excuse to pay you less, give you crappier benefits, etc. and then be like “but the culture here is sooooo GREAT!” Usually, it’s not. It’s awkward and weird.

      I would say if you are happy with the other aspects of your job, and this is just uncomfortable but something you can live with, then stick it out. But if those other pieces are also sub-par, then I would consider moving on.

    27. Science of Working*

      Not normal or at least not healthy – too many boundaries are being crossed here.

    28. Just wondering*

      Upper management should not be hugging people without asking if they want to be hugged. And even asking for hugs only works if the person knows it’s really really ok to say no thank you, which is hard to do when the person has power over you.

      Personally, I love hugs, but nothing makes a hug more uncomfortable for me than being hugged out of the blue without being asked.

      (Note — people who have gotten my hug-consent in the past don’t have to keep asking me each time. But as a counterpoint, I don’t think we can even assume that someone you generally hug ALWAYS wants to be hugged by you. E.g. my friend who I always mutually hug was recovering from food poisoning AND some mental health stuff and just didn’t want to be touched. Of course, I wouldn’t know any of this if I had just barreled at her with a hug.)

      A culture in which upper management hugs everyone whenever they visit the office is NOT one in which people who don’t want to be hugged will feel comfortable saying so. People need to think about how invasive unwelcome hugs can be — enveloping someone else’s body! People in power are doing this. Aaaack it’s awful.

      To reiterate: I love hugs. But only consent-based hugs.

      1. Totally Minnie*

        I love hugs from people I am interested in hugging. I do not love hugs from people I don’t know well who insist that they need me to hug them.

    29. Jennifer Juniper*

      Are you in a Japanese -run company? If you are, the company cheer thing can be normal.

      1. HarvestKaleSlaw*

        That was my first thought too. The answer to this one is basically: weird as hell, unless you’re in Japan.

        1. Japananon*

          Even in Japan, this would be from like… the 80s. Any company with younger people that uses computers instead of faxes probably does not have a cheer anymore.

        1. AL*

          Well, speaking as a resident of a Northern European country I would say this is very very odd and does not seem normal at all.

      3. Rebecca1*

        Except maybe the hugging, each of those things is normal in at least one country. However, as far as I know, there’s NO country where ALL of them are normal.

        1. Rømtømtøm*

          I was wondering if it was a Scandinavian company. The cheering seems out of place, but a sort of one-armed hug is a very common greeting, e.g. in Sweden, similar to the air kisses in France. Still not super common in an entirely professional setting, though.

    30. De-Archivist*

      Once in my previous life as a retail employee, I opened a new store, and they did this type of stuff. I’m very mellow and low-key and not really one for dancing at work. The new-store-opener noted that I was not dancing along to the cheer with the rest of the crowd, grabbed me by the elbow, and said, “If you don’t participate, I’m gonna make you go up to the front and do it in front of everybody.” So I participated. Not the best experience, let me tell you.

    31. KittiesLuvYou*

      This is horrific and not normal at all. Run away from companies that describe themselves as a family. It’s usually code for “we will disregard your personal boundaries”.

    32. Bookwormish51*

      Greeting everyone and saying goodbye—pretty normal

      Calling company ‘like a family’—not unusual. Possibly worrisome depending what they mean by that. Possibly ok.

      Company cheer—odd

      Mandatory hugging with people you don’t know we’ll—very, very weird and inappropriate

      1. Pilcrow*

        It’s the combination of all these things that isn’t normal. One of these in isolation isn’t too bad (except the hugging, blech), but all of them together = RUN!

    34. Artemesia*

      Well places like this are like family — big extended families that thing nothing of expecting members to work for free or otherwise extend favors and gossip of course about each other. Not a normal workplace. (it is normal that some groups are naturally more expressive or outgoing — that is different than requiring a greeting and pushing touchy feely friendliness as policy)

    35. Amethystmoon*

      That is very much not normal and the hugging is boundary-violating and could really trigger someone.

      1. no hugs 4 me*

        It triggers me! I mentioned above that I wanted to talk to our HR about it, but the HR person hugs too. Sad.

    37. HugsAreNotTolerated*

      Hugs in the office? Hard pass. I already know you like to clip your nails at your desk and now I’m expected to touch you? When. Pigs. Flipping. Fly.
      I’m intensely curious as to what happens if you just refuse the hug? Like what happens if you intercept them when they go in for the hug with a hand out for a handshake? What about putting your hand out with a simple “I’m not much of a hugger, can I interest you in a fist bump?” Are there consequences for ‘denying the hug’? What would those consequences be? Can you imagine that on a write-up?! “Employee refuses to engage in blatant boundary disrespect and is therefore not a team player.”

      1. no hugs 4 me*

        I reached for a handshake with a woman who laughed it off and hugged me. It must have looked like I didn’t notice the fact she was going in for a hug.

        I would, however, love to deny it and see what happens. What I have done is hide in the bathroom around the time “goodbye hugs” are in order — it worked a couple weeks ago, but upper management is now back and I’ve been dreading the hugs all week.

        1. HugsAreNotTolerated*

          Yeah, having to hide in the bathroom to avoid mandatory hugs is not normal or okay. Given that this seems like a definite culture thing that’s going to be inescapable throughout the company I think your best choice is to get out. That said, I know not everybody has to option to leave quickly or easily so maybe try:
          -being on the phone when management comes by. One hopes they wouldn’t interrupt a call with a client to hug you!
          -Conveniently be taking a coffee/tea/smoke/facebook break away from your desk
          -Re-arrange furniture in your workspace so that it’s a little more difficult for people to get close enough. I’d put an extra chair in my cube and say it’s there for training purposes, or turn my desk around.
          -Take a step back when they go in for the hug and say, “I’m getting over something, best not to hug”.
          -Put up a ‘funny’ “No Hugs Zone” sign and lightheartedly point to it and laugh off the hug like “Whelp, the sign says no hugs, so I guess no hug for you today!”
          -Stay seated at your desk with your hands on the keyboard when they come around and just twist your body around to say a quick “Hello, nice to see you, I’m in the zone and gotta get back to this”. It’s kinda rude, but not as rude as having to endure unwanted hugs.
          – If it works in your office, instigate a Red/Green system where you have a green sign up when you’re available for questions, etc. and a Red Focused Work Mode sign when you’re busy and don’t want to be interrupted.
          Hope some of these help! Good luck!

          1. no hugs 4 me*

            Thank you very much for the suggestions! I might use one with some modification while I pray for another opportunity to come my way. Also, love the username!

            1. Totally Minnie*

              Do you have a sense for what would happen if they went in for a hug and you said “Oh, I’m not much of a hugger, actually. Can we (handshake/high-five/other thing you’d be cool with) instead?”

              1. no hugs 4 me*

                I have social anxiety, and I’m sorry if this doesn’t seem to make sense, but I genuinely doubt I could say that outloud when someone’s about to hug me :/

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  Listen through ther podcasts to the one where it came up and chant along with Alison until you can channel her like an Oscar winning actress?

    38. sassypants*

      I think it depends on industry. I worked at a corporate office for a retail store and we did cheers once a month (but it was literally thousands of us) and it was a “pep-rally” type environment. In a “traditional” office setting I think it would be abnormal.

    39. Lil Sebastian*

      I work in a field that is very team focused and some people actually live where we work (I work in a residence/student services department at a college), and even I think the hugging is abnormal. I think I’ve only hugged or been hugged in very specific situations (e.g. was hugged by close coworkers when I announced a pregnancy, hugged a staff member who was very upset)…and I asked/was asked if a hug was ok first!

      1. Just wondering*

        I’m glad they asked! That is so rare. Especially toward pregnant women — people seem to think pregnant women’s bodies are community property. I like the shirt that Angela in The Office was given when she was pregnant that says “Ask Then Touch.”

    40. Diet Root Beer*

      Am I the only one who wouldn’t leave a job over this? Like, it’s dumb for sure but if you have to do three dumb things a day (and each dumb thing takes 2 seconds) for a job you otherwise like, that really doesn’t seem worth the hassle of finding a whole new job…I think people here are too quick to suggest just quitting over relatively minor annoyances.

      1. no hugs 4 me*

        Some things that other commenters are mentioning is accurate — There is very little respect or even acknowledgement of boundaries. I’ll find myself sending emails from 2 a.m. to 10 p.m. some days. For example, when I missed a Friday to get a restraining order against someone who assaulted me, HR asked what happened, expressed sympathy and then asked if I could come in on Saturday.

        I am an introvert who loves boundaries and doesn’t mind drawing a line, but it can feel like I’m doing that constantly.

        2. Batman*

          Oh, wow, that’s awful. Do you not have PTO or any sort of time off? I don’t know your workplace, but asking me to come in on a weekend is a no go for me.

          1. no hugs 4 me*

            Yes, we get PTO and sick days, and I used PTO the day of the hearing. Pretty much every time upper management is in town, we’re asked to work late/on the weekends just for the fun of it. I’ve never obliged and I feel bad for the ones who feel compelled to.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          You didn’t ask but I’ll volunteer: “Sorry to hear about your being assaulted, but can you come in on the weekend ” = NOT NORMAL

      2. Laoise*

        I wouldn’t leave for dumb things or minor annoyances.

        But non-consensual physical intimacy is NOT a minor annoyance. Repeated and intentional physical intimacy without consent from superiors to employees is a serious issue.

        It might not be a thing you personally want to quit over — but it’s not a small issue because you happen to be okay with it.

        I’d stay in a job with the cheers and the greetings, even though I’d seriously hate it. I wouldn’t stay in a job where I was repeatedly intimately touched without my consent.

      3. Lavender Menace*

        Well, first of all, different things rise to different levels for folks. Required hugs violate all kinds of bodily autonomy and privacy norms. They’re not just mildly annoying or minor annoyances for the majority of people.

        But secondly, this is also about what these kinds of behaviors signifies – a weird, culty culture that ends up expecting unreasonable loyalty or workloads from employees because they are “family.”

    42. Light37*

      Your family can’t suspend you or fire you. Your company can. Do not let them confuse the two.

    47. Burned Happy Helper*

      GTFO-they are crazies. +1 on the other comment mentioning how they’ll exploit your emotions and then lay you off without warning. I also was in a company like this, and they did something else: upper management was too dumb to figure out department goals/strategy type stuff so they’d ask us all for “feedback” since we were all “closer to the work than them”. I gave a lot of pretty good strategy and planning consulting (my 1-1’s were more like advice sessions) but once things changed and I lost touch with the flow of the happenings in the business (through their decision to move me into another dept) I was demoted in a particularly public and nasty way. Watch out and shop the ol’ resume around!

    48. Coder von Frankenstein*

      On a scale of “normal” to “not normal,” this is approximately OMGWTF.

    50. Onyx*

      The “hi” and “bye” thing is more normal, I’ve had colleagues get really bent out of shape over that. It’s an unwritten cultural expectation though, a meeting is too far.

      The rest? No.No. No.

  5. Stuart Minionh*

    How common is it for employers to reimburse for interview expenses when the interview is 1-2 hours away by car? The mileage isn’t too far, but it’s one metro area to another.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I don’t think it’s very common. You presumably applied to this job knowing that yo’d have to travel for the interview and factored that into your decision to apply. I think companies that reimburse for travel are typically doing so for very senior roles or very niche fields.

      1. Anon for now*

        In my field I would never assume I would have to pay my own way to an interview. If I did that would be a major red flag. So it’s a know your industry thing.

        1. cmcinnyc*

          In my industry it is almost unheard-of for any kind of interview reimbursement except at the highest leadership levels. Definitely know your industry.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Even if it’s a town/city within commuting distance? I’m thinking about the DC Metro area; if I worked in Maryland but was interviewing for a company based in Virginia for which I wouldn’t have to move house, I wouldn’t think to ask for mileage reimbursement or Uber fare or anything. In my experience, if the presumption is that I could commute to the job from my current home, it’s on me to get to the interview.

          Very curious what field always pays for interview-related expenses!

          1. Cephie*

            When I was in college in a Maryland suburb of DC, both companies that I interviewed with in a Virginia suburb offered me mileage reimbursement! But those were software engineering jobs and I was a student, so I would definitely believe that was unusual.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I’ve driven all over Chicagoland for interviews and never been reimbursed, nor for train tickets downtown. But they may be deductible on your taxes if you itemize.

      1. Jamie*

        I once got my parking validated at an interview downtown but otherwise I’ve never heard of it. (also Chicago area)

        1. ThatGirl*

          Yeah, I could see parking validation – I have had that happen – but never reimbursement for mileage, tolls, CTA/Metra ticket or anything like that.

      2. Natalie*

        Not any longer, unfortunately – all miscellaneous deductions (the ones subject to the 2% floor) were suspended as part of the tax bill last year.

        1. ThatGirl*

          ah, never mind then. I didn’t pay much attention to that because I didn’t have anything like that to deduct this year.

    4. Anonym*

      In my ~15 years of professional life, I’ve never heard of mileage being reimbursed for an interview, for what that’s worth.

      1. your favorite person*

        I have, exactly one time. It was actually for my very first professional interview. I was interviewing with an NPO from (technically) out of state. It was a four hour drive and they had me for two in-person interviews and I was mileage for both.

    5. Emmie*

      I have not heard of this before. Asking for reimbursement would raise red flags because the company may already be worried that the commute is too much for you, or that you will not move for the position.

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      I’ve had expenses like that reimbursed one time when the position was local but for some reason the interview had to be at a different location (same state but a few hours round trip).

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      Not really normal. It’s never been offered when I’ve been interviewing.

      Mind you, I’d take it if it were :)

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        (Couple of weeks back I travelled from near London to Glasgow for interview. About 500 miles. No reimbursement discussed or expected.)

            1. SebbyGrrl*

              OMG! I love you BOTH so much right now!

              I’m in a weird place where AAM is kinda my ‘office time’ and right now I adore my coworkers!

        2. Michaela*

          Similarly for me, except it was Canberra to Melbourne and around 700km.

          I did get peeved when I got there, and found out that the hiring managers did not expect me to travel, and it was just what their HR had decided. They’re currently doing background and reference checks at the moment, so there’s a fair chance I’m going to get an offer, which will probably make me less annoyed.

    8. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      I think if you would have to move to accept the job, getting reimbursed for travel expenses is normal. If you would just have a long commute, it’s not.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That’s exactly the measure I would use. My partner was reimbursed for mileage when he drove four hours to an interview (that they would have flown him in for, but he offered to drive because of an expedited timeline), but he won’t be reimbursed when he drives 20 minutes away for another interview.

        1. londonedit*

          That’s what I was going to say. Going on my own experience here, a 1-hour commute into central London from the outer boroughs where most people live isn’t uncommon, and even a 90-minute or 2-hour commute really isn’t unheard of, as plenty of people live in suburban towns and catch the train to the city to work. You wouldn’t expect to be reimbursed for travel to an interview if that journey was going to end up being your normal everyday commute. If you were moving to a different city, or for some reason the interview was at a different and out-of-the-way location from the one you’d be regularly working at, then I think most companies would reimburse travel costs.

      2. JR*

        In general, I agree with this, though I also think it’s normal not to reimburse for travel if they aren’t doing a national search. If they are expecting their interview pool to come from their area and you just happen to be applying because you want to move to their area? Not on them to pay for the interview. If they are conducting a national (or regional) search because they don’t think they find what they’re looking for in the local area, or if they proactively recruit you? Definitely on them to pay for travel.

    9. Ruth (UK)*

      I think it varies by region and job type. Here (I work in admin at a uni) they reimburse a lot of interview expenses for academic posts but generally not admin or tech ones. Driving 1-2 hours is generally considered less normal by UK people than US people though.

      In conclusion, I don’t think it would be very normal and isn’t something a think a candidate should ask for but I wouldn’t be wildly shocked if a company offered it.

    10. CTT*

      I think this is field-specific, because I was going to say “very common” but judging by everyone else’s comments that’s not standard. FWIW, if you’re travelling for a law firm interview, they’ll reimburse you, at least if it’s a medium or larger firm.

    11. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Generally not normal. The exception may be for areas where parking options are very expensive parking (e.g., midtown Manhattan or San Francisco Financial District) where you may get your parking reimbursed, but no the mileage.

    12. Alara*

      In my large company, we look at the distance between your residence and the interview facility, and reimburse if it falls outside of a certain range. This seems normal to me.

    13. Catsaber*

      I don’t see 1-2 hours away as really significant travel, so I would not reimburse a candidate for expenses. We have some people who have 1 hour+ commutes and they aren’t reimbursed either.

      I work for a state university, and there are strict rules about reimbursement, but I don’t think this would be common even in private companies, simply because that length of a drive isn’t really seen as “travel”. If it was several hours, or included an overnight stay, then there might be more reason for reimbursement.

    14. kittymommy*

      My inclination is that it is uncommon even for higher up positions (my employer certainly wouldn’t do it).

    15. Anonymous Poster*

      Varies by field. I’ve worked in one field where mileage would have been paid, and in another where travel for interviews is not reimbursed.

    16. Asenath*

      At my level, never. I suspect that even at higher level jobs, where reimbursement is the norm, they’d only pay it if the applicant was coming from much further away.

    17. AnotherJill*

      For academic positions, where it is most common for applicants to come from out of town, most universities will also reimburse local mileage expenses, just to treat everyone in the exact same way.

    19. DouDou Paille*

      I’ve been working in various fields for 25 years and have never had an employer pay for interview travel expenses unless they flew me there and put me up in a hotel. I recently drove three hours across my state for an interview and even stayed overnight in an AirBnb, but never dreamed of asking them for reimbursement. For context, it’s a mid-level position (not c-suite) and the industry is marketing-adjacent, so this is normal, IMO. If you want the job, sometimes you have to suck up some expenses.

    20. Adalind*

      Not common. My previous coworker had about a 3 hour commute (round trip due to traffic). If you are coming in for an interview then you have a reasonable expectation that this commute is okay for you. My coworker knew what he was getting into and they would never have dreamed of reimbursing for an interview. Maybe could claim on taxes once hired? I can imagine higher positions where you have to travel further distances may reimburse. Or as others said, may depend on the field.

    21. ginkgo*

      Interestingly, I have an interview next week with a tech company in Silicon Valley (I’m in SF – it’s probably an hour drive) that will reimburse for rideshare (Uber/Lyft), but not for mileage if you drive. I don’t think the distance matters per se, but I’m guessing they offer this as a way to avoid excluding candidates who live in SF and don’t have a car, since it’d otherwise be difficult/expensive to make it to the interview (whereas once they’re in, they’d get to use the fancy company shuttle).

      I also interviewed with the corporate office of one of the rideshare companies last year (within the same city), and they gave me a coupon for a free ride to/from the office with their service. Though that was more “look how great we are!”

      So it’s not unheard of in tech, but probably still not the norm.

    22. smoke tree*

      I’ve never been offered reimbursement for driving, or even for taking a ferry to an interview, although that may be industry-specific. I would only really expect it for a flight, and even then I suspect not all employers could afford it.

    23. designbot*

      Interview expenses vary greatly by field in the first place. In design, it’s abnormal to be reimbursed at all, even for a cross country flight, until you get to Director level.

    24. Ra94*

      In my industry (graduate law jobs in the UK), firms would always offer to reimburse all travel expenses- anything from a bus ticket to a plane fare- up to £60-100. This was for full-day assessments, though, and it’s part of a big push to increase access- with the idea of attracting talented students from around the country who might be looking at a very expensive train fare.

    25. Pomona Sprout*

      I’ve been reimbursed for travel experiences only in the case of interviews that were far enough away to involve an overnight stay. If it’s only couple hours away? Not gonna happen. Hope this helps.

    26. Emilitron*

      There’s a boundary between “local candidate” and “bringing a candidate in” that seems to be defined by whether you were staying overnight. If they’re reimbursing you for a hotel room, then drive mileage or transit cost is also reimbursed. I’ve heard new employees at my suburban workplace complain about this; urban graduates aren’t going to have a car, we’re barely accessible by public transit (2hrs for 20 miles), uber-etc can run $50 each way, and the company doesn’t reimburse local candidates for anything.

    27. Moonstorm*

      I have never heard of being reimbursed for driving. I work in an office setting. If you have to fly out, however, they should reimburse you.

    28. quirkypants*

      It’s not normal in my industry (tech, in Canada) for only a couple hours of driving.

      Reimbursement happens from time to time for LONGER distances (i.e. if you must fly or take a non-commute train) AND,
      – You’ve been recruited/sought out by them, or,
      – You’re very senior, or,
      – You’re a very difficult to recruit for role.

      If you applied to a job, I’d assume you would get yourself to the interview in all but very extreme cases (that said, I don’t hire for very senior roles).

    29. PoliLaw Wonk*

      Lawyer here–one super niche consideration–if you’re coming from the government space and moving into the private sector, depending on what jurisdiction you work for, you may not be able to accept the travel reimbursement from a private company, because it might considered a personal gift. This is especially true if the private company is a vendor or a lobbyist employer. A lot of jurisdictions exempt these types of expenditures from the ethics/gift restrictions–but I’ve had to nix reimbursements for interview expenses on behalf of some current gov employees.

  6. Detective Rosa Diaz*

    I worked for a company that wanted me to use my personal cell phone for calls for them but did not pay any portion of the bill. I refused. Soon after I was fired for “not being a team player” – personally, I think equipment should be provided if it is necessary for my job, or if you want me to use my personal device (and have random clients have my PERSONAL number) then you should pay for it. Am I wrong?

    1. gecko*

      I’d say you’re not wrong, but it is pretty normal for companies to have sloppy and bad BYOD policies.

      1. designbot*

        +1 to this. I’ve never worked somewhere that paid for employee cell phones below the Partner level. And we ALL have our email on here, and we’re on the phone with contractors all the time.

        1. AnnaBananna*

          Yah, but that’s email via an app. So the client still doesn’t have your personal info. And I imagine the need to check said email isn’t constant but when you have a super important deadline, correct? So that’s kind of self-selecting instead of going into the office early and starting email from there.

          1. designbot*

            Contractors call me and wake me up at 6am. Clients call me at 7:30 at night. My boss texts me on the weekends. If I tried to opt out I would be making things much, much more difficult for everyone.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I don’t think so. I would be rather alarmed to have my personal cell available (and then presumably at any time of the day or night) to any random client. I have always, even at teeny poor county departments, been issued a Work Cell if I am needed to be reachable by work-related entities via not-desk-phone.

      1. CustServGirl*

        I don’t have a work cell, and while many of my colleagues use their personal devices for work, there are very few select people I give my personal number to for work use- all outside clients MUST use business email or my office line. I will not put myself in a position where I have my entire work world calling or texting me at all hours for information.

        1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

          Yes, absolutely this! One thing my work has is an app that runs our work phone. Generally I use it via the work laptop i have, but if the internet goes down at home since I’m 100% remote, I can make and take calls through my work line on my cell phone. It has saved me on a couple occasions, but I only use it if the internet is down.

          I would never make a work call from my cell phone number. Nope nope nope.

      2. AnnaBananna*

        Yup. I don’t need to be butt or drunk dialed by a client on the weekend. Nope nope nope.

    4. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I’d worry not so much about the money, but security – in my office, we’re highly discouraged from calling clients on our phones and told to get a Google Voice number if we absolutely must, so that random people don’t have our numbers. That a company wouldn’t offer even that workaround sounds like they don’t care for your safety.

      1. Exceler*

        In my experience, its not normal to be that concerned about security when you’re calling clients. Of course, that depends on what kind of clients you work with.

        1. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

          Well, for us “clients” mean “people we’re offering legal help to,” and so the safety factor is in giving your personal number to people who might be upset at a potential legal outcome, especially if the reason they need legal help is because they lack self-control, respect for boundaries, or an understanding of appropriate behavior.

          But it’s not necessarily a physical safety thing – what if a client keeps calling at odd hours, or multiple times per day? What if a client misuses that personal number to ask you out on dates? And what about a generalized separation of work and personal time? Those are also all reasons to not give out your personal number.

        2. Ra94*

          As a young woman, I can’t think of a job where I *would* feel completely safe giving out my personal number to strangers.

      2. 8DaysAWeek*

        This is what I was going to suggest if you were forced to use your own phone. I have a google voice number for people who I don’t want to have my real number.

        But to answer the original question, if it is a large company especially, I don’t think this is normal. At my company though, you have to be a certain level (director and above) to be issued a company cell phone or have your personal phone bill reimbursed.

    5. r2g*

      I think this is normal, unfortunately, especially in younger companies — I’ve had to do this at two jobs in a row, and now have an office phone but am expected to use my personal phone for calls as needed. I work in marketing.

      My husband is a civil engineer at a more established company and is expected to be on calls far more frequently than me (with contractors, clients, co-workers, etc), and his company reimburses for phone use. He’s expected to use his own phone, though they offer incentives to offset phone costs.

    6. Drax*

      not normal. Not not normal. When I said I didn’t want to use my phone for work, the agreement I got was my bosses/ coworkers could contact me but no customers and that was fair.

      when I was required to be on call constantly, they gave me a phone.

    7. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Normal, my company heavily pushes BYOD (and if you accept it, you incur the costs), but you can choose to have a company provided device

    8. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Yeah this is pretty normal, that you use your own device for calls and emails without reimbursement.

    9. AliasMace*

      This has happened to me – generally a sign that the workplace in question has poor personal/professional boundaries. This is not standard practice at companies that have their shit together.

    10. Jamie*

      I agree with you – this is one of my pet peeves actually…but it’s crazy common.

      As IT I fought this at more than one company and my little wins of getting people company phones or reimbursement for their personal usage made me happy … although made some of tptb think I was a rabble rousing pita.

    11. Wendy Darling*

      Also chiming in with “not uncommon but also not great”.

      I use my personal number for work stuff because I work from home so I don’t have a desk phone and we basically never use phones – I think I’ve gotten all of 3 work calls in 18 months and they were all coworkers. I’m kind of wanting to take my cell number out of my email signature though because if a client ever called me I would actually die.

    12. Mockingjay*

      Did the company provide a landline or VOIP phone?

      If so, requiring you to use your cell is NOT normal, unless your role involves calls outside business hours. In that case, they should pay at least a portion of your phone bill. And the landline or VOIP number can be forwarded to your cell, so the number appearing is a company number.

      If no, requiring to use your cell without compensation is NOT normal.

    13. Ann Furthermore*

      I worked for a company that did this too, and I found it really annoying. It was a small company though, and they did a lot of corner-cutting stuff like that. We also used the free version of Skype for IM’ing, and had to rely on the crappy internet provided by the landlord because it was included with the rent and the owner didn’t want to spend the money to get something better. At a software company, of all things. Much of the time I felt like I was working for a company being run out of someone’s mom’s basement.

      I now work for another small company, about the same size as that one (around 50 employees). We are expected to use our cell phones for some stuff (dual authentication and so on), but there is a VOIP system that we use for calls, and we have Microsoft Teams (similar to Slack) for inter-office communications and IM’ing. It’s much more professional and above-board.

      So yeah, there are companies that choose to shift alot of the costs of running a business onto their employees, so it’s not abnormal, but it is a crappy way to run a company.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I think asking you to use your personal cell phone for dual authentication is reasonable and you shouldn’t need to be reimbursed for it.
        But if they want you to use your personal phone, I think they should be paying you SOMEthing toward your monthly bill. Even if your costs don’t go up. They’re saving money by piggybacking on your personal expenditures.

        So it might not be uncommon, but it’s Not Cool.

        (and yes, a Google Voice number, and don’t forget that you can turn GV’s forwarding on and off, so that after-work calls go to a voicemail)

    14. Aveline*

      If you do this, remember you might be able to claim it on your taxes. In some cases you can’t, but I’ve had friends do it successfully.

      1. CAA*

        Unfortunately, the deduction for unreimbursed job expenses was eliminated by the Tax Cuts & Jobs Act.

    15. Juniantara*

      This is not uncommon at smaller, less security-minded companies. Depending on a bunch of details, they can make you provide your own “tools” and you can deduct the costs on your taxes.
      If you are non-exempt, they would have to pay you for any time you took calls. If you are exempt (“salary”) you don’t really have a lot of recourse.

    16. Aunt Piddy*

      It’s increasingly common but it SUCKS. Corporations shouldn’t offload overhead to their employees.

      If this comes up again, though, get a google voice number.

    17. Observer*

      You are right – and in some places what happened to you was illegal. But, where it is legal it is way too common.

    18. Cringing 24/7*

      I’ve refused to use my personal cell phone for work purposes before. Especially in customer service, where I work, that just opens you up to the opportunity for so much abuse from customers at obscene hours of the day (or, likely, night) when you’re not getting paid. But, I have seen others in my industry – even in my company – using their personal cell phones to reach out to customers via text or call and it baffles me. So, I’d say it’s somewhat common but obviously poor practice. Higher-levels in my industry typically get a separate work cell phone from the company that’s paid for by the company.

    19. Keyboarding Queen*

      I work at a company that at first provided a landline. But then the leases on the VOIP phones expired and they opted not to renew. Now, we get an extra $90/month (however that is before taxes and 401(k) deferrals are deducted) to defray communications costs and they even suggested a few paid services that will give you a number that you can forward to your personal phone. I opted for Google Voice because it is free. That’s the number that I give to the client and as far as they know it is my “work” number as opposed to a cell number and I’m therefore only available during normal business hours.

    20. No real name here*

      I worked for a company that provided no device but did provide some flat reimbursement across the board. I used a Google Voice number because I didn’t want clients having my personal number, and it worked really well. It allows for a different voicemail message and to set the GV number to “do not disturb.” (For me, it got put in this mode after business hours, I was expected to be reachable during the day but not other times.) I highly recommend this for anyone who finds themselves in a similar boat.

    21. MicroManagered*

      My employer has started putting a blurb into offer letters that says something like “your salary acknowledges that your position may require occasional use of your personal cell phone or laptop.”

      The idea is that it’s 2019, so it’s not outrageous that you would be expected to use your cell phone to check email, or we have the Skype for Business app that allows us to use the company IM or even take phone calls (to our business number, which ring through to the cell), or to send or receive internal texts or calls to our personal numbers (like from the boss).

      But I would think that if they are expecting you give out a cell phone number to external parties (like clients), they should provide the phone.

    22. cmcinnyc*

      I was going to say “not normal” but reading comments, apparently it is! At my job it is *strongly* discouraged using one’s personal device for anything because a lot of our work is subject to FOIA laws–and that could open up your personal device to being FOIA-ed. NOBODY wants that. So besides the cost and the boundary, I’d consider if there might be legal hassles as well. I guess this is in the “normal but crappy” category.

    23. Jadelyn*

      Nope, I’m with you on this one. My org used to do cell phone reimbursement, and they’ve just recently restricted it to only upper management. So I uninstalled all of the programs I was using for work on my phone. I’m not donating my devices to my employer.

      Re the personal number thing, that part you might be able to get around by using a Google Voice number or something. But I still agree that use of the device, phone number sharing aside, is something they should pay for.

    24. TootsNYC*

      also, if you’re at work, you can install an app on your computer that lets you make calls from it instead of a phone.

      I haven’t found anything about receiving phone calls on the computer; there’s a reference to “PC to PC” calls, but if the person calling you is calling from a phone, G.V. may not work.

      HOWEVER, you could set G.V. up so all the calls go to voicemail, and then call back using your computer.

      1. Harvey 6-3.5*

        I don’t know about google voice, but my work phone is a VOIP on my computer. I can call and receive calls over the line (and it is the same number I had before I teleworked.

    25. MoopySwarpet*

      I don’t think the firing part is normal, but using a personal device for work is pretty normal. Without reimbursement . . . I would think that’s less common, but not unheard of.

      We reimburse phone bills for people we expect to be using their phone (sales people, mostly), but not for an employee who chooses to communicate via text or their personal phone vs email or their desk phone.

      If it comes up in the future, maybe you could use a google voice number or something similar that masks your personal number.

    26. Asenath*

      I have never worked for a company that required me to provide my own equipment. That being said, some of my co-workers do use their personal cell phones at work, even though this is not required by the employer. They just find it more convenient (we are often trying to contact co-workers who aren’t at desks). I don’t do that, and stick to my company-supplied computer and email. I see too many disadvantages to using my personal cell phone for work.

    27. Just Another Techie*

      Shitty but pretty common, IME, especially at smaller companies and newer companies.

    28. Renee*

      My company has a unique way of using personal devices. I work from home three days out of the week, and when anyone in the office wants to call me they dial my work phone, and anytime my work phone is dialed it is also routed to my personal cell phone. This way I don’t have to give out my personal number, everyone still calls me using my work number. My company does reimburse for minutes, but it’s hard to do the reimbursement because you don’t really know how many minutes are going to work calls, so you just have to guestimate.

    29. Bookwormish51*

      Not that strange. At my job, all employees have everyone’s cell numbers. This is a job with things that occasionally need to be done outside of work hours and that’s just part of the deal. We only have a few clients, and many of us give our own clients our phone numbers, but it’s optional.

    30. Xtina*

      Not normal. Our company has a really strict cell phone policy for hourly employees. If you use your personal cell phone (call or text) for company business, you MUST file for reimbursement. You can actually get written up if you don’t.

    32. Yet another Kat*

      Medium normal. I have always used my own phone for work calls/emails/texts/slack etc.

      In one place that I worked, they instituted a new security requirement that forced us to have a specific corporate-overlord work email account (not actually used by our team) on our personal phones that came with a security program that would technically allow work IT to access/lock/erase my device – in that case I pushed back and was then reimbursed for my phone bill (along with the rest of my team) for the rest of our tenure there.

    33. Wintermute*

      This very much depends who you are calling, what industry you are in and what your role is. Sadly it’s becoming more and more common for companies to require your own device to be used and not reimburse anything (for what it’s worth in places, California notably, this is not legal), but there are places, like sales, where this is very much NOT the norm. Reason being severalfold but first they don’t want you being the sole point of contact they want it being a corporate desk number clients have in case you get hit by a bus tomorrow (or leave for a competitor, because a client calling YOU could be argued to be an exception to anti-poaching contract clauses), as well as salespeople not wanting clients calling them up any time, and the company not wanting things like warranty calls or complaints to just go to some employee’s cell.

      Otherwise, pretty much normal. Google voice numbers are a beautiful thing, and can be forwarded to your cell so you’re not giving all and sundry your personal number (they can also be set NOT to forward but to voicemail all calls outside certain hours or when you’re on vacation).

    34. kay*

      I get so annoyed that at my work they don’t cover anyone’s phone bill, but have mandatory 2-factor authentication on all university systems required to do work, thus you must have a smartphone. MY smartphone. To do my job. There are authentication devices available but only to those who legitimately don’t have a cell phone. Of course, I have one, and after some pushback and asking about other options I use it. But I think it really stinks.

      1. bleh*

        I would have lied about having a cell phone. My Uni requires two-factor authorization too, and I got one of the fobs for the purpose. My phone is none-of-their-business.

    35. Mel*

      It’s totally normal for companies to want your coworkers to be able to reach you on your cell and maybe even expect you to be willing to chat with vendors on your cell, but not to have clients call you. I knew people who did give select clients their cell, but they wouldn’t just have it available to anyone.

    36. c56*

      You’re in the right here IMO. It’s not out of the ordinary for companies to have BYOD policies, or make use of personal devices a required part of the job — mine recently started requiring the use of an app for a sometimes-essential job function, and I’m not thrilled about it — but being expected to give clients your personal number would be a bridge too far for me.

    37. Someone Else*

      I would call this one “common but not normal”. The distinction I’m making being it is a widespread bad practice, and you are not unreasonable for pushing back, but I’m also not shocked they reacted the way they did. I think it’s well within reason to consider this type of thing a “you don’t want to work there anyway” factor, but moving forward you may want to confirm device policies during the interview process so you know they’re a bad fit sooner.

      1. Someone Else*

        Sorry to tack on to that: BYOD with some form of reimbursement, depending on context is reasonable to me. It’s the complete lack thereof and the “clients have your personal number” bit that makes this one cross the line to me.

    38. nora*

      You’re not wrong. However, if you have no choice but to use your own phone, learn from my fail and get a Google Voice number (they’re free). I once gave my phone number to a volunteer with severe mental health concerns that were normally under control. Then they got out of control and…yeah. This was 4ish years ago and there are still activist groups I can’t be a part of because that person is a member and I’m afraid to interact with her again.

    39. MissDisplaced*

      If it were just so your manager or coworkers could contact you outside of normal business hours occasionally, I’d say this is now a normal BYOD expectation.
      But if the phone is expected for client calls, or for monitoring social media, PR or other marcom functions the company ought to pay.

    40. Bethany*

      Piggybacking on to this, is it normal to have to use your personal mobile device for two-factor authentication purposes? I left my phone at home on Monday and was unable to use some of the software at work because I needed a verification code texted to me.

    41. JSPA*

      Good reason to get a low cost (even, flip phone and/or burn phone with limited minutes) second “own” phone. (What are they going to do, shame you for it?)

    42. A Scrummy Manager*

      Jumping on the somewhat normal, but not cool bandwagon.

      A few options:
      Google Voice
      MySudo
      Cheap separate phone (Mint Mobile, Ting, etc)

    43. Glitsy Gus*

      You are not wrong, but as others have said it is common.

      One option that I have used in the past is to use call forwarding from my desk phone. So, outside of business hours, my desk phone auto-forwards to my cell. That way clients still only know my work number but I don’t miss important calls. If your system can do this, I would see if it’s an alternative. I do get a few more robo-calls than I normally might, but the trade of of not having my personal number being spread around willy nilly is worth it.

    44. Onyx*

      Sucky, but pretty normal in smaller companies.

      My personal view on this is bosses and colleagues can have my personal number to discuss work-related things but clients do not unless you’re giving me a phone. Like others have said, a Google number can be useful for number privacy.

      There’s also IT security issues to think about. My company has a policy that if you have a work-related app (like email/pm app etc) on your personal phone, they have a right to go into your phone in the event of legal discovery and even wipe it if necessary. That’s a nope from me.

  7. BurnOut*

    I’ve only been out of school for a few years, and on job #2, but both have been subpar, this current role being the worst of the 2.

    I’ve been severely overworked, starting from when I was pretty much forced to take on senior responsibilities early on in my role ( still doing so, with no adjustments in compensation). My supervisor seems to think the only way I can grow professionally is to add MORE to my plate (and conversations I’ve had asked her to lessen my workload so I can have breathing room and avoid burnout have gone terribly wrong). So much of my time is already spoken for, yet there is an expectancy whenever there is an issue, as someone on the bottom of the food chain, that I’ll find the time and motivation to initiate a full-blown investigation to save the day. Every time. Oh, and with a smile on my face. Any attempt to ask for help/ make things easier for myself have blown up in my face, meanwhile when I bring up needing a salary adjustment/ more help/ all I get are excuses from my supervisor and even higher up the chain of command.

    While I think there are plenty of us who have a lot to juggle, is a HUGE disconnect between what I am and the general experience… What is most challenging about my current situation is my company keeps winning these awards for best place to work in our metro area. I keep telling myself if this was true, I’d know it. You don’t tell someone this is the best place to work- you feel it. But all I feel is taken advantage of.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you be more specific about what the piece is where you want to know if it’s normal? (I want to avoid this becoming people just posting the reasons they dislike their job.)

    2. AccountantWendy*

      Find an new job. I’ve been you. It’s not going to get better. Alison has a LOT of advice on how to talk to managers about priorities. If you read that and tried it and aren’t getting results, it’s definitely time to leave.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I have actually encountered something like this and (after leaving) realized that the department was bad, not the company as a whole. I knew people who loved working there and stayed there nearly all of their careers and brought in their kids as interns and some of them eventually got jobs there. Meanwhile my department had over 50% turnover each year with the exception of one small segment that was sort of its own little island.
      Your company may be great for 90% of the employees but you got stuck with the shit-show of a manager/team.

    4. Meraydia*

      In some ways normal (development trial by fire is common in a lot of companies). The awards are not shocking – IME Companies pay for entry and as long as they meet the metrics and provide florid descriptions of their wonderful work culture they can win them easily.

      1. Busy*

        Yeah I feel like you gotta side eye these. I mean who are the people responding? It is so arbitrary.

    5. BurnOut*

      Thank you for those who have commented- I’m just trying to gauge if its normal for me to be so miserable in a place that is supposedly “the best of the best’? Where do I go from here?! I don’t want to keep making the same mistakes. It looks like evaluating the team/ manager style would be the best thing for me to keep in mind as I try to escape from this torture!

      I appreciate the advice and care

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Time to look elsewhere. During the interview process, ask to speak to some people who would be your coworkers to get an idea of working styles as well as ask a few discreet questions about their favorite and least favorite parts of working there. Try to have that talk without the manager present for a slightly more candid response.
        If that isn’t possible but you met a few people and got names, reach out via LinkedIn with some of those questions. You might even start with that since even without a manager present they might be more frank in a more anonymous setting.

      2. Asenath*

        It is normal (well, in the sense that it’s not totally bizarre) to be miserable in a workplace that other people find the best of the best – it might be that you’re ill-suited to the job, or that your department is the exception and the rest of the company is much better-run. It’s not normal, in another sense of “normal”. Most people are not miserable all the time on the job. If you are miserable, you can certainly look for a transfer within the company (in case the other departments are what gives them their reputation) or elsewhere.

      3. NowWhat??*

        Oh no. If they’re marketing themselves as “the best of the best” then that’s a red flag in my book. However, if they’re considered “best of the best” in the industry, that’s a different story.

        It’s not normal. But it also may just be not the right fit for you. In the past, I’ve seen a few of my colleagues in the same role as me get flustered and overwhelmed with a typical amount of work for the role, and asked that their load be lessened. I’ve also been the person given extra projects or emergencies since they thought “you’re low, you must have the bandwidth!” Though it was maybe a once a month occurrence that interrupted my work for a day, not constantly.

        When I interview (both for my own positions and prospective employees) I always ask people about their communication style. I feel it tells more about their management style than asking that question directly, as you’ll learn if they are someone who wants you to come to them with problems, or if they’re very independent and want others to behave similarly. It’s gotten me away from some bad managers and some potentially bad employees/coworkers.

      4. Glitsy Gus*

        If your company has any kind of company-wide social events you could go and actively try to talk to folks outside your department and get a feel for how they like working for the company or if they feel overburdened. Be discreet, but most folks the these events get pretty candid after a few drinks and it’ll at least give you a better idea whether the whole company is this way or if you just have a crap manager or a uniquely overburdened department.

        I don’t know if it will actually help you improve your personal situation, but if it is just your manager and there’s another department you might like to work for it at least gives you the option of seeing if a transfer is possible. If it’s everywhere in the company you can move on without hesitation.

      5. Argh!*

        It’s “normal” to be overworked from time to time, and in some kinds of work you pay your dues in the beginning. If this isn’t that kind of job, then you’re being exploited.

        It may well be a great place to work… in other departments. A lot depends on your boss. (Truism: People don’t leave jobs, they leave bosses)

      6. Frankie*

        I think overwork situations can unfortunately be “normal,” but that doesn’t mean you need to accept it or tolerate it. There are plenty of places that don’t expect this of their employees.

        Also–the “best of the best” doesn’t mean it’s the best fit for everyone, doesn’t mean every department is great (I’ve worked for nightmare departments in otherwise great companies), etc.

        My last job was a crazy overwork situation and for me, it never got better–leadership simply didn’t want to adjust expectations to reality, and the end result was employees with horrible burnout. In my experience, you can gain skills fast in this kind of environment but you’ll pay a price, and the hope that things will change is usually futile.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Sadly, this is more common than it should be.

      From my own experience in a position where I was expected to essentially perform 2 full time jobs, I would encourage you to start looking at other options. The fact that your company is full of sycophants who have drunk the koolaid and are skewing those award results should not be a factor in your decision making process.

  8. Jennifer*

    My employer offers employees the opportunity to wear jeans every day if we donate $50 to charity. They select four different charities each quarter, we vote, and the winner receives all the donations. This past time the winner was a charity I don’t really want to support. Is this normal? I’d never heard of this before. I don’t really feel I’m being treated unfairly since I just have to dress according to the required dress code, which I agreed to do when I was hired. But again, I’ve never heard of it and it seems unusual.

    1. Lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Yes, it’s normal for companies to do a horrible job with organizing charitable donations.

      3. Jadelyn*

        Yeah, this – although, if it’s a charity you have serious objections to, you might be able to raise that with someone depending on the charity and your organizational culture.

        A few years ago, my team wanted to do some charity stuff for Xmas, and someone proposed we work with the Salvation Army. I put my foot down and explained that they are virulently anti-gay, they once allowed a trans woman to freeze to death rather than let her into their shelters, and I will never ever do anything to support them, so if they wanted to do that, I was not going to participate. My organization prides itself on diversity and inclusion, and the suggestion was made out of ignorance, so as soon as I explained why I objected everyone agreed we wouldn’t do anything with them, and the coworker who had suggested it apologized (I wasn’t mad at her, most straight people don’t know about this stuff, but she felt bad anyway).

        Dunno if this is a similar situation at your place, but is there someone you could talk to and explain why you’re not comfortable supporting the specific charity they’ve picked?

        1. Jennifer*

          There is, but it’s a bit different from your situation because I don’t think the organization is hateful, it’s just that I’ve heard from people that are more familiar with them that most of the money doesn’t go to help the people in need, it goes in their pockets. But that’s a good suggestion, thanks.

          1. 8DaysAWeek*

            I worked for a company that was a big supporter of a charity that didn’t use all the funds for the cause, too. They pushed automatic payroll deductions and donations to wear jeans, etc. If there were days where you could pay $5 to wear jeans, I would sometimes do that but I didn’t do the larger donations because I didn’t fully support this charity and I already contributed to charities that had meaning for me. Financially my charity money was already allocated.
            I think you can not participate and if anyone gives you a hard time you can say you already donate to other charities.

          2. Jadelyn*

            Ah. That is slightly different – but I think you could still raise it with whoever is picking the charities for people to vote on. Maybe suggest they use Charity Navigator or Guidestar to vet their choices before opening up voting next time?

          3. Wintermute*

            I think it takes a pretty extreme case of “this charity doesn’t match our corporate values” rather than just a charity that’s mismanaged. For what it’s worth people have a lot of misconceptions about how to read an expense report, some fields and places it takes a lot of overhead money to do good effectively. It’s one thing to expect a 90% disbursement rate from a local support charity, but if it’s an international charity doing complex work it’s not uncommon for there to be a lot of overhead– for example a charity for vaccinations in impoverished areas is going to need to hire international shipping logistics experts with a specialty in medical who don’t work on the cheap, in many cases they must pay bribes to local governments (often creatively hidden elsewhere on their budget) so their supplies aren’t confiscated for sale by some corrupt official and for the safety of their employees from violence, they have to pay local guides and experts to build bridges to the community and make the largest possible impact for their resources, etc.

              1. Wintermute*

                That’s very fair, I just thought it worth pointing out because a lot of people put a ton of stock in the overhead percentage not realizing some kinds of charity, that do real good, have legitimate overhead requirements: there’s a gulf of difference between Medicins San Frontiers and Susan G. Komen (though MSF is nowhere NEAR as high for overhead and that says a lot given what they do requires getting people into war zones with medical supplies)

            2. JR*

              Thanks for raising this! I also think high(-ish) salaries aren’t necessarily an indication as of mismanagement, but can instead mean they’re investing in their people and recruiting great people with lots of options. Dan Pallota and Vu Le have both done some great work in this area.

          4. Maria*

            When you say “their pockets”, does that mean they pay their people well? NP executive over here grateful that I make enough to do good work, and appalled at how many NP’s are being starved down to gross incompetence. I manage millions and have MBA student loans to repay – its reasonable for me to expect to make enough for good childcare and a 401k.

      4. NotAnotherManager!*

        Agree with this assessment – I’m not a fan of pay-to-dress-down fundraisers to begin with, but I also think that $50 is high and would want a say in where my money went (like pro-rating donations based on percentage of vote).

        My organization does mostly straight matching contributions over certain levels and with very few restrictions. The list of organizations that end up with matches is impressively broad, and it basically killed any infighting about people’s pet causes. (Apparently, the charitable giving committee the first couple years was a hot mess, so they switched tacts.) I’m sure it’s murder on our finance department at year-end, but our CFO is a genius at efficiency and probably has it down to a science.

    2. Rose*

      Jeans for charity is very normal. $50 is higher than I have heard though and in most places the charities are either tied to the mission/business type or generic community service orgs. So not abnormal per se, but a little off kilter.

      1. facepalm*

        $50 is high but only b/c most places tend to do jeans Fridays, not jeans every day.
        (But I would 100% pay $50 to wear jeans every day and wouldn’t even care if it went to charity or the president’s ski vacation, personally, ha :) )

      2. ThatGirl*

        My last job it was a set amount per year (I forget the exact amount, but around $40 I think?) or $2 per week to wear jeans on Wednesdays – and that money went to our charitable arm. Thing is, nobody ever checked to see if you had your badge or sticker :P

      3. Auddish*

        My last job, the “jeans” days were only Thursday/Fridays and employees had to pay $100 (but it was a recurring donation taken straight from your paycheck twice a month, so it turned out to be $4ish/pay period.) $50 for every day seems great to me.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Maybe this is because I’m working at a company with casual dress code where we wear jeans every day regardless, but I find the idea of *paying* to be able to wear jeans super weird and really off-putting. Either allow jeans or don’t, why tie it to a pay-in scheme?

          1. ContentWrangler*

            Yes I agree – either you have the type of job where presentation matters and jeans aren’t formal enough, or jeans are fine and people can wear them and still do their jobs. Paying for them is weird.

            1. Yvonne*

              At my job we can pay to wear jeans on Fridays (and certain other times of year every day) but it’s made clear that if you are dealing with outside clients on those days you still need to dress professionally.

          3. Parenthetically*

            +1000, literally I am WTFing about this, either it matters if you wear jeans or it doesn’t!?!

          4. Bookworm1858*

            Yep, I find this super weird as well! Though I did work at a grocery store where we had to wear black dress pants and could pay to wear jeans instead…don’t remember all of the details with that since it’s been over 10 years.

          5. RPCV*

            Agreed. An employee giving campaign once auctioned off “jeans OK!” stickers where you could, presumably, wear jeans that day, but jeans were totally allowed under our dress code. People wore them all the time. I didn’t get it.

          7. I Took A Mint*

            I’m not allowed to wear jeans at work and I think it’s really weird too. Can I pay to wear leggings? PJs? A cape? A sword? Why am I paying my work for the privilege of breaking the rules? Can I pay to break other rules? None of this makes sense to me.

      4. Oatmeal’s Gone*

        Normal – the donation at my job is $5 per day (only on Thursdays), so $50 a year would be great. We do a different charity each week (with some repeats) and divide the money collected evenly among the charities selected that week.

      5. MsClaw*

        A family member worked in a place where it was *$500* per year to wear jeans on Friday.

        Family member did not wear jeans.

        1. LJay*

          My company had 2 tiers. $100 got you every Friday. $500 got you every day.

          But then they decided that since they had gotten above a certain total donation amount, everyone could wear jeans every day, minus certain days or weeks when VIPs are around.

          I’m not sure if they reimbursed people who had “brought” the jeans passes or not.

          I’m warehouse and so can wear jeans anyway so didn’t pay attention.

      6. Totally Minnie*

        We used to do a charitable donation for one extra day of jeans per week (everybody gets Friday, if you work on Fridays. If you pull the weekend shift and get Friday off, no jeans day for you that week), and it was $1 from each paycheck. So a total of $26 a year for one extra casual day a week. $50 for jeans every day? I’d do that in a heartbeat.

    3. Plebeian Trash*

      There are a LOT of offices that do this and although the intent is good I think that it can be problematic for several reasons. One of which is having charities which not all people support, and also if a more casual dress is fine if you donate then why on earth is it not ok if you don’t.

      That said…pretty normal…happens a lot.

      2. Karen from Finance*

        I agree, and also, I don’t like the idea of having it be so easily visually identifiable who has donated and who hasn’t. I think it can create a weird peer pressure environment.

        Like what if there’s a scenario where someone sincerely finds a charity problematic, but is the only person in their team not to donate? Then they’re singled out by their clothes every day. SMH. Though common, I don’t think it should be made so one can feel shamed for not donated.

    4. Peridot*

      I think it may depend on the charity. I’m not a fan of Salvation Army because of their policies towards LGBT people, but I think I’d have a hard time pushing back against them in a lot of workplaces. I could try, but no guarantee. Other charities, you could much more easily make a case for their being divisive.

      As far as requiring a donation in order to get a perk, I’ve definitely heard of it. It doesn’t seem fair, because it’s going to penalize people who just don’t have the disposable income.

      1. Jadelyn*

        “it’s going to penalize people who just don’t have the disposable income.” Thank you for saying that – I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I found the idea so off-putting, but that’s it right there. When you tie a perk to donations, now it’s a perk that functionally is only available to your wealthier staff members.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Annnnd others don’t get to decide who has disposable income and who doesn’t. That doesn’t work for [list of 1000 reasons].

        2. Maya Elena*

          When the stakes are this small, people who are materially harmed are going to be rare edge cases. For the vast majority, I feel like the spiral of “nobody can have perk X if we cannot make it 100% inclusive and accommodating and identical for all conceivable cases” just breeds resentment and creates a net negative for society. Plus, what value are one’s beliefs if one doesn’t suffer for them by enduring slacks and skirts? Hehe.

          1. Peridot*

            I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that $50 one way or another will only make a difference in “rare edge cases”? I disagree with that. I also don’t like that it’s such an obvious visual signifier. Why aren’t you wearing jeans? Didn’t you donate to the orphaned whales charity? Do you hate orphaned whales? If you can afford a dress wardrobe, can’t you just donate the $50? Why did you donate this quarter and not last quarter? How come you support bereaved manatees but not orphaned whales?

        3. Wintermute*

          I’m more bothered by the “it class signifies by creating a visible representation of who is paying and who needs that money elsewhere more”.

    6. Eeyore's missing tail*

      I’ve heard of companies doing this. Can you reach out to the group that selects the charity and and explain why everyone may no be thrilled to donate to them?

      1. Jennifer*

        That’s a good idea but the thing is, the employees selected this charity. I got outvoted. So I wonder if that argument will hold water.

        1. Eeyore's missing tail*

          It may not, but if one of their 4 charities people can pick from may offend others, it could be worth a shot.

          1. valentine*

            You can ask to limit the scope or to set standards.

            But this is galling when the company can just donate or allow jeans.

        2. Jadelyn*

          It can still signal that they need to be more careful in which charities they allow as options.

        3. Mr. Shark*

          I would hate that. It seems ridiculous to have the company dictate who you are supporting (or whether you are supporting any charity at all–I think it’s really none of my company’s business).

          Maybe just tell them that you are going to donate to a different charity–say, the Human Fund–in place of the one that they chose, and wear jeans when everyone else does.

          2. Win*

            This kind of pushback IMO is what leads to the end of these programs. The company has 4 options and an employee vote to chose the employees pick. There are 10000 reasons many people wouldn’t agree on the charities picked, which is why there is a vote. Many companies are just going to set it up without a vote at all.

            Easy answer, don’t donate or wear jeans if you feel very strongly about the orgs.

    7. facepalm*

      My mom’s company does jeans days like this, I think to benefit United Way. It reminds me of the local elementary school that does “no-uniform Fridays” if you pay as a school fundraiser.

      2. Cercis*

        Ours was United Way. It was in addition to our charitable giving campaign, which annoyed me, because I donated at a pretty high level through the campaign and then they wanted to also nickel and dime me. I just refused and when I was asked by coworkers about it said that I’d already given enough. One supervisor, who saw my donation sheet, tried to go to bat for me and another person who donated at a higher level but the giving chair refused to budge. I commented that next year I’d just reduce my donation by $150 and then I’d donate to wear jeans whenever I was interested in wearing jeans (which would not have cost me $150, so it would have been a net loss for them).

        I then left employment before the next campaign. So I didn’t have to make that decision.

    8. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      It seems weird to me that a company has a dress code but lets you pay to get out of it. The point of a dress code is to project a certain image of professionalism (whether that’s internally or for the benefit of clients). Either they care about the dress code, in which case they should enforce it evenly, or they don’t, in which case they shouldn’t have one.

      1. Jennifer*

        Good point. When we have client visits they send messages reminding us to dress up the following day. I’m glad I dress up anyway because I don’t have to worry about accidentally showing up in jeans and a hoodie when a big client is here.

    9. BlueWolf*

      We used to do the occasional Friday jeans days for charity, but they would say ahead of time what the charity was so I suppose you could pick and choose which ones to support. The amount varied depending on your position level as well from $5 to $20 per time.

    10. Jamie*

      Seems this is fairly common in corporate environments. I work in manufacturing so our business casual usually includes jeans anyway.

    11. Four lights*

      Overall normal, though I find it weird that every day is jeans day. I’ve usually seen it for dress down Friday.

    12. Arctic*

      It’s very common to pay like $5 and wear jeans on Friday. I haven’t heard the $50 to wear them all the time (although with the numbers game I guess it is a better deal?)

      Picking charities is always fraught.

      1. Jennifer*

        Yes, the $50 and jeans every day is what seems weird. Plus there’s at least one day a week where we have to dress up anyway because clients will be here, whether you paid or not.

    13. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      Many companies do tend to do a crap job when it comes to charity and corporate giving, etc. so that’s normal.

      Depressing, but normal. (I’m lucky my employer does a really good job on this).

    14. Akcipitrokulo*

      Raising money for charity is certainly normal. The choice of charity? I don’t know what is universally normal, but at my work we have criteria for selecting charities with which to partner, and one of them is that the charity is not political or divisive (within reason). We’ve supported a charity which places children with adopters, a local mental health charity, and some prison reform & refugee charities have also been considered. Things like Autism Speaks wouldn’t be allowed, for example.

      1. Piper*

        Really? Autism is political or divisive but a refugee charity isn’t? Huh that’s interesting. I honestly don’t understand that. Can someone explain?

        1. NeonFireworks*

          Sure thing! It’s not that it’s about autism; it’s that the choice of Autism Speaks is a poor one for anyone who wants to support autistic folks. The group was founded by misguided neurotypical people and still has minimal/no input from anyone actually on the spectrum. The way the group talks about neuro-atypicality advances the (inaccurate, harmful, patronizing) narrative that autistic folks are a “burden” who need to be “cured,” which is not just ableist but in-line with eugenics. Excellent alternative: Autistic Self-Advocacy Network (ASAN). Spread the word!

        2. Emby*

          Autism Speaks is not liked by many Austic people, as it doesn’t center their voices, and treats autism as a burden to caregivers and therefore something to be cured, which is not the view held by many Autistic people.

    15. StressedButOkay*

      I work for a nonprofit and this is a pretty normal technique. If you do want to participate but have issues with the charities being picked, you could always ask how these charities are picked and if staff can have input. And that staff know upfront each time what charity the funds will be going to.

    16. Hallowflame*

      Normal. My company does a jeans-everyday donation drive benefiting March of Dimes. $40 a month, or $100 for the quarter.

    17. Asenath*

      It happens, sure. It’s always a bit tricky getting charities that everyone will support – I suppose at least your employer has a vote on it.

    18. Sleepytime Tea*

      I know of a number of companies who have done something like this. I personally think it’s crap. It isn’t fair to people who don’t have the cash for this, and yes, having to “donate” to a charity you don’t want to support is also crap. I truly don’t understand why companies do this. Either you’re ok with casual dress in the work place or you aren’t.

    19. Boop*

      I’ve heard of people being able to “pay” to wear more casual clothes. This is a little odd though – the idea of donating the proceeds to charity is very admirable, but then there is the problem you are facing. Even if the donations are made confidentially, what if you decide not to donate that quarter because you don’t support that charity? People will know you didn’t donate because you’re not wearing jeans, so you may be treated differently or harassed for “not supporting the cause”.
      I think this was an attempt to make the workplace seem friendly and hip, but someone didn’t think it through. Which is actually totally normal is most offices.

      1. Jennifer*

        Those are good points. Thankfully, no one is mean about it. Not everyone donates and it’s done privately. They don’t pass the hat around in front of everyone. Looking around it seems about half and half.

    20. Ralph Wiggum*

      I’ve never heard of a pay-for-dresscode scheme before.

      But it seems many other commenters have come across this, so maybe it’s regional?

    21. Safetykats*

      Normal. Actually on the liberal side of normal – I’ve been asked to donate that much to wear jeans only on Fridays. It seems like a common way of encouraging charitable donations for companies that have a “no jeans” dress code.

    22. TurquoiseCow*

      My company has casual Fridays where you can where jeans without donations, but they occasionally do a $5 for jeans donation on holidays or other special days, like around Christmas or just on minor holidays we don’t get off, like Valentine’s or St. Patrick’s. $50 seems kind of an excessive donation.

    23. Ra94*

      I interned a company that did a version of this, except it was done much more casually. On certain days, you could wear a specific outfit (e.g. a particular sports jersey on their match days) as long as you weren’t meeting clients, and someone would come round with a charity collection bucket at lunch and you were expected to put a dollar in if you were wearing the outfit. But most people donated anyways, and no one kept track of who gave and who wore the outfits. So your company’s system seems like an intense version of that, but not totally abnormal.

    24. Amethystmoon*

      It can be normal. Before my workplace went to “nice jeans as long as you are not dealing face-to-face with outside people,” we had United Way as a charity. A couple of times a year, they did campaigns and jeans stickers were an incentive to donate. The new jeans rule was instated after a bunch of financial issues & mass layoffs.

    25. Mel*

      It’s normal! My last job did this. You couldn’t choose the charity, although you could be a part of the volunteer team that decided them.

    26. Purrsnikitty*

      Wait, you have to pay to have the privilege of not obeying the dress code? Why does this seem so wrong to me? Even if the company doesn’t see the money, it’s still a privilege hidden behind a specific behaviour that has nothing to do with work. Actually, even if it was a reward for good work it would still seem wrong.

  9. Wearing Many Hats*

    Can you rephrase this so that it asks about the piece where you want to know if something is normal? – Alison

    1. Emmie*

      It’s helpful to hammer it home after a key employee departs, or after a big failure that’s tied to lack of employee development. You can also track turnover, and use statistics about training and retention. But, this company does not seem invested in this, and it will be an uphill battle. Plus, you have too many responsibilities at this company. If you really want to use those skills, this may not be the company for you. I mean this in the most friendly way, which you cannot get from text on a blog. I am sorry.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Sounds like you should be looking for a different job where your skills and interests are more valued, but this sounds pretty normal to me, sadly.

  10. Less Bread More Taxes*

    Oooh I love this because I was actually going to post in the open thread tomorrow! Okay so for context, I am youngish with 4-5 years of experience. I recently moved countries for this new job that I started less than a month ago. The work itself is interesting, and I like the people. There are just a couple of issues:

    1. I was up front about not being able to speak the language here. My interviews and correspondences were all in English. There were things said during the interview process that led me to believe that the language thing would not be an issue (e.g., “If you want to learn the language, I can look into classes for you” rather than “You need to learn the language so we’ll start you with classes”). Yet when I arrived, nothing was in English. To my surprise, I’m the only foreigner here. Meetings aren’t in English. I hate sounding like a whiny American who expects everyone to cater to her, but they told me it wouldn’t be an issue! On top of it, whenever I meet with my grandboss (who also interviewed me in English), he does this dramatic sigh and says “When are you going to learn [language]?” or “I guess we have to cater to you for the foreseeable future” in a really annoyed tone.. and it’s so awkward and embarrassing. I constantly feel bad for making people communicate to me in a language they don’t have a great command of. I’m being left out of important meetings as a result…. it’s a mess. I asked my direct boss about it and she skirted around the fact that she told me language wouldn’t be an issue and is instead putting an insane pressure on me to get to a working proficiency in the language. I was of course planning on learning the language anyway! But knowing that everyone expects me to start speaking about technical concepts in a couple months is scaring the crap out of me.

    2. Nearly the same as point 1 except with two programming languages. When I came on board, I said I knew let’s say Python. They said that would be fine yet now that I’m here, it’s like they were expecting me to be a C# expert. Again, I’m learning, but it’s an added pressure I wasn’t expecting.

    I realise most people may not have experience with these issues specifically, but any insight would be helpful. I’ve already decided to give the job my best shot for six months then reevaluate, but it’s already been the hardest month in my career.

    1. gecko*

      I can’t speak to 1 but honestly I think 2 is fairly normal. I’ve found that tech companies are either really specific about needing expertise in a language, or they’re not and they just expect you to pick it up ok.

      1. valentine*

        This is wild, especially since you’re the only nonspeaker.

        Even if you learned the language by tomorrow, that wouldn’t make you business-level proficient. If you’re going to tough it out, find a business-focused course.

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Also, something that people may have more experience with: I get pulled into meetings kinda randomly. My workday according to my contract ends at 5, and for the past month I’ve been scheduling things like apartment viewings and cell phone plan meetings right at 5:30 or 6. Most places close at 6 so it’s vital that I get out right at 5. Yet every other day, my boss comes in at 4 or 4:30 and pulls me into an impromptu meeting. I did talk to her today about this and she said to let her know in advance when I need to leave on time… but that’s going to be every day for a while until I’m moved in. So how do I have that conversation? I feel like I’m being whiny again here, but I can’t just put off finding an apartment forever and cancelling viewings at the last minute.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        When you say contract do you mean an actual binding contract saying we agree to pay you X amount for working from 9am to 5pm for your work with us for 3 years. Or is it like a hire letter that seems like a contract but really is not and it just outlines your usual work hours being from 9am to 5pm?

        I know you said you are in a country (not US) so employment laws are different there, but in US most people are in an employee at will situation and not an actual contract, even if you signed something stating what your pay hours and benefits are.

        1. Less Bread More Taxes*

          It is an actual legally-binding contract, but there’s a clause saying “work hours may differ” or something. Basically I don’t have an issue with staying an hour or two late, but it’s been rough with this first month just because there has been so much to do outside of work also. Normally I’d feel comfortable broaching the topic after a few months, but being brand new and asking to leave on time every single day for a few weeks feels awfully demanding. It probably just warrants an honest conversation with my boss though.

          1. valentine*

            Tell her you need to leave on time for the next two months. (Give yourself a cushion.)

            But, really, since she outright lied to you (and have you mentioned this to the guy who’s rudely sadfacing you about it?), do you trust her and is this somewhere you want to stay? What realistic benchmarks can you set and meet for language proficiency and catching up in your role?

          2. sacados*

            Do you have an office calendar system that everyone views/uses to schedule things? Maybe not since you mention the meetings being “impromptu.”
            But if your office uses google calendar or something along those lines, maybe block out your calendar as “need to leave exactly at 5pm today” and then you can just tell your boss —hey, I marked on my calendar all the days I need to leave on time, hope that helps with scheduling!
            Or something like that.

            1. Karen from Finance*

              Yes, I’ll add my personal appointments to my work calendar as private (so others can see you’re busy but can’t see if you added a description of the thing). Bonus points if you can sync it to your cellphone so it beeps or vibrates when you need to leave. Then at 6pm when it does, you can just, you know, point and excuse yourself.

            2. Glitsy Gus*

              I would suggest this, add them into your calendars as personal meetings.

              I would also talk to your boss and let her know you will have a lot of days you need to leave on time for the next few months as you get your household set up. You could also add, “but if it would help I can keep Wednesdays free for meetings” or another day if another day seems more reasonable. It’s a good meeting the middle, as long as you think it actually would work.

      2. LunaLena*

        Something tells me you’re in an Asian country (if you’re not, please feel free to disregard the rest of this post). These work expectations remind me a lot of the time I worked at a Korean company in the US where the culture was definitely more Korean than American. In Asian cultures, yeah, the expectation is that you stay as long as you need to for the job to be finished. There were nights that everyone stayed at the office until 10 p.m. or even midnight without overtime to get projects done on time (to be fair, I worked at a newspaper company, so there were extremely strict deadlines), and were still expected to be in by 8 a.m. the next day.

        The same thing with the language – from your later posts, it sounds you’re conversational in the language, but not business-proficient? Business-proficient is a whole other animal from conversational. My guess is that they expected you to become business-proficient quickly since you “spoke the language” already, and are irritated that you’re not living up to their (unrealistic) expectations. On top of that, if these people have not lived outside of their country, they don’t understand why their cultural norms and standards are not the same as yours, so they probably assume you’re being deliberately obtuse. Also, Asian cultures are notorious for saying one thing and meaning another – the whole “you have to offer a present three times before they’ll accept” thing is a good example of this. I very briefly taught English in Korea while I was still figuring out what to do with my life, and experienced the same kind of bait-and-switch – they said they were amenable to requests I made, like getting paid more since I would be staying with relatives instead of having them pay room and board (room and board were part of the job offer), but once I actually got there, they refused to even talk about any of it.

        In my experience, Asians expect you to go with the flow. Part of this is because it’s such a collectivist society, where people are taught at a young age that you shouldn’t do anything to make waves or stand out. So the more unscrupulous ones will say anything to get you board, then expect you to just go along with it. I think I shocked my potential employers when, after a week of broken promises, I told them I wouldn’t work for them and just walked away.

        So TL;DR – depending on what country you’re in, may not be terribly unusual, but definitely not a great place to be working either. You speak English in a country that doesn’t; that means you’re likely in demand and can find another place that will work better for you.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I don’t think it’s necessarily Asian though. I’m in Latin America and a lot of these things may as well have happened here. My country/city in particular is known for not being the most honest people in the world, with an abundance of scammers and charlatans. And yet, dishonesty and dishonesty, everywhere. What this employer is doing is unfair to LBMT plain and simple.

          Quite frankly it makes me uncomfortable the way you are projecting shady practices as being common to an entire, gigantic, continent.

          LBMT: I’d look into some other work opportunities in this country if you can. They are setting impossible expectations for you and are blaming you for it: they are setting you up for failure. And they lied. Stay in the foreign country, find an apartment and take classes, but do get out when you can.

          1. Japananon*

            The point is not that all of Asia is shady. The points are 1) some things LBMT complains about are normal here, but not in the US/west and 2) it’s not that every company in Asia is shady, it’s that this particular set of shady practices is common among bad companies here.

            In some companies, they would be really out of place leaving on time every day. And it would not work to point at the contract and say “well my contract says…” There are bad companies everywhere but I’ve seen this exact complaint from so many fresh expats here.

            1. Karen from Finance*

              I know this, thank you. And my point is that this is neither exclusive to Asia nor something a good company anywhere does, regardless of how often you can encounter it in a culture.

              I am troubled by your use of “US/west” to describe a culture. As stated before I am in Latin America and these behaviors are common enough in some industries here that I thought OP might have moved here. Do we not count as the west? If so please tell me more. I find that mentality… interesting.

              And then on the other end you are conflating cultures in countries as culturally dissimilar as India, Japan and Russia and going “Asian cultures”.

              My point is that “East vs West” mentality is absurd and toxic and I’d very much appreciate it if you kept that sort of speculation and generalization out of here. Please and thank you.

              1. Japananon*

                I think you’re reading a different intention than what I’m intending to convey.

                I am intentionally generalizing about trends in work culture about different parts of the world based on my own experience. Of course this situation can take place anywhere in the world but sometimes it is valuable to know when things are common in work cultures in one part of the world vs. another. Especially when most of the commenters here are in English-speaking countries/Europe and LunaLena and I are writing from East Asia, where there are very different ideas of what is “normal” or “common”. In many places in Asia, LMBT’s situation is unethical, but common.

        2. Japananon*

          This is exactly what I thought as well based on my experience in Japan.

          “Oh you don’t need to speak [local language]”–until you get there and they realize it’s actually harder to communicate with you than they thought, and they really need you get to business fluency. In most of Asia, most people are not comfortable speaking in English and there isn’t a lot of international diversity to the point where business meetings would be held in English (ie China has a ton of different dialects but there aren’t a ton of Japanese, Thai, Russian, British, etc. people where English would be more widespread).

          Ditto about time. It’s pretty unusual to get out exactly on time because you’re expected to work until the job is done. Here in Japan “you can leave on time” is a big draw for working mothers and other people needing work life balance. If you need to do something during business hours then you would need to take leave, although sometimes you can take it as “special leave” not your regular PTO if your boss recognizes that this is required to do your job.

          Being “worked around” ie left out of meetings, subtle bullying about your language skills and how much of a burden you are to your coworkers/the company, being the only foreigner there (have any foreigners worked there in the past?), and the lack of flexibility (ie a local would have to take time off for apartment appointments but they’re not even giving you “foreigner slack”) indicate that your office is not culturally ready to accommodate someone with such a different background and expectations as you. You are not familiar with each other’s conventions enough to communicate effectively about what you need. If you continue to go about this the Western way (ie asking directly for what you want, assuming you’ll be told directly if something important happens, valuing written/spoken rules/promises more than unwritten/spoken) you’re going to continue to frustrate yourself and your team. I think you would be happier in a workplace with more experience with international colleagues, but if you’re determined to make this place work, I would suggest you find an ally (take someone out to lunch and ask them how X usually happens), carefully watch and listen so you can learn the hierarchy and how people relate to each other and get information, be prepared to put in extra hours to help others/show you’re working hard, and study the local language and culture like your life depends on it. I think you should also seek out other expats/forums for foreigners in your country.

          1. Nanani*

            Seconding all of this.

            Also, someone who is fluent in written English and is fine emailing back and forth in English may not be at that same level in speaking English. Yet they might not realize that until they actually need to do it.
            Or your boss might not have realized the extent to which the rest of the office needed you to use the local language. Or maybe a lot of things, as they say.

            The good news is if you go looking for another company, odds are that one that already has some international workers will have already worked out the major stumbling blocks. You’ll still need to adapt but, the worst lifting will not be at your own feet.

      3. JSPA*

        As with the language comment (which almost certainly should have been taken as a polite directive to start learning the language!) the new comment means, “no, you can’t apartment- hunt every day — pick a couple of days or ask us how one does the process correctly, because otherwise you will flail obliviously for months with no results.” The “just be direct” concept works in many though not all English speaking countries and regions. It absolutely doesn’t, in many other cultures.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I had this happen too, in two jobs that are less technical. In one, I said I could teach llama fitness training lessons, not llama dance lessons. Lo and behold, they had me a complicated llama dance routine. I say, I can’t do llama dance routines, I am not a good dancer and this is not something I’m trained on. Nonsense, they say, you can do it! Then get mad at me when I can’t.

      Another time I said I taught Llama First Aid classes from Llama Safety Agency. They want someone to teach Llama First Aid from the American Llama Society. I said, multiple times, “To clarify, I am certified through Llama Safety Agency, not the American Llama Society.” “Are you sure you’re OK with me teaching Llama Safety Agency classes, not American Llama Society classes? As I’ll have to get recertified to teach through the Llama Society.” Yes, that’s fine, they said.

      Next week: Um we need you to teach a Llama Society class, why can’t you do that?

      *bangs head on wall*

    4. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      About 10 years ago I had a boss *aggressively* trying to recruit me for a job in Germany where he was relocating to. I do not speak German.

      I turned him down, because I was sure that I would wind up where you are with #1. If you otherwise like the job/country/employer and you think you could pick up the language, then go for it, and good for you. There would be no shame at all in pulling the plug though. They really did a bait and switch on you, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.

    5. MENA region*

      The language thing seems crazy, but maybe region specific? I’ve spent a lot of time in the Middle East and although I speak Arabic, I knew so many Westerners who never made an effort to learn Arabic and it wasn’t expected of them at all in most workplaces. If they needed an Arabic speaker that would be decided before hiring.

      Also, it takes THOUSANDS of hours to learn a language to the point where you can function professionally in it—this is not a matter of “getting by”, chatting with people, or ordering coffee, you need to be able to speak both abstractly and precisely. So it’s not a reasonable expectation for them to want you to learn the language well enough to function at work by studying in your free time. This one is completely on them for hiring you without language skills IMO. However, is this really the company you want to work for? Sounds super unpleasant.

      1. RPCV*

        Right? If the boss thinks LBMT can be fluent in a language after a month, Boss is a total nutter.

        My company has people take 2-ish year stints in a particular foreign company fairly regularly, but it’s with the understanding that they’re American and it’s unlikely they’ll have any fluency in that country’s language (they have several, actually).

        I have no advice, and I’m not even sure if this is normal in general, but it’s not normal in my experience. If they want you to be fluent before arrival, they need to send you to (probably full-time) classes before moving you. If they want you to be fluent in-country, they need to have you spend a good chunk of your day on a formal language program. Otherwise the assumption should be that English is a language spoken in the office and they can accommodate you while you get the hang of the language (at least 6 months, IME).

      2. Wintermute*

        This is super-common in IT in the middle east. I know more than one person that’s taken a very lucrative contract in Saudi Arabia or the UAE with zero command of the language and that was just fine. For some reason especially in IT and telecom they’re hiring in talent like crazy and they’re willing to adapt to you, and pay very well too. Of course there are serious strings attached especially in the UAE where you can end up in a very bad situation if you’re not careful, but for white collar work that’s not as common as for laborers.

        1. MENA region*

          Yeah, I’ve never heard of anyone being expected to learn Arabic on the job in the Middle East beyond maybe the most basic pleasantries.

    6. Erin Withans*

      So in my admittedly limited experience, this isn’t unexpected. It’s definitely crappy they told you the language wouldn’t be an issue, but yeah, if you’re the one who doesn’t speak the native language, you need to learn, and you need to learn fast. Even if people can switch to English when directly engaging you, it’s deeply unlikely that that’s going to fly for all communication, be that meetings, emails, or watercooler talk. Unless you had a really heavily international workforce and English was a common shared language, you need to expect that the office will run in its native language and catch up.

      Maybe you can ask a coworker or your language tutor for a list of common technical terms you need to know for your line of work? Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        Less Bread More Taxes had no reason to believe her manager would outright lie and this is like telling someone they need to learn to climb a mountain fast when they’ve not even begun a couch to 5K. “Learn the language” is a wildly unreasonable expectation for someone new to a job that relies on the language, with no plan or managerial support.

        1. Less Bread More Taxes*

          Thank you. As an aside, there actually aren’t any language classes that they provide until September, so they aren’t helping me work through this either. I’m working with a tutor I found myself.

          1. 8DaysAWeek*

            This makes it even more frustrating. In the meantime can you grab an app for your phone/computer to start to learn the basics/supplement the tutor?
            I use Duolingo (available on PC or phone), Mango, and Memrise. And the Google translate app is wonderful for day to day translations. You can also put this out on the table in listen mode and it will live translate conversations. But I would check with whoever you are speaking with at the time if they are ok with this.

            Good luck! I once had a bait and switch IT job and I left after barely 3 months. It was not what I signed up for and I was only there for 3 months because that is how long it took to find a new job.

            1. Nanani*

              DO NOT use google translate for anything even remotely confidential (Google will keep it) and do not rely on it for anything requiring precision. It’s not good enough for say, legal matters like your work contract or major purchases (real estate, vehicles, etc) .

    7. Lora*

      1. This kinda happens, unfortunately, and it just kinda is what it is. I am surprised that THEY are surprised, though: usually what happens is, they start a meeting in English and then sort of slip into the local language and forget anyone else is there. Then I ask a question in the local language, because technical language doesn’t translate well (“why are you talking about sliced fruit?” was a memorable one – they meant, section of a building) and they all act like a piece of furniture just said hello. They sort of get it in their heads that Americans Don’t Speak (whatever) and mindlessly ignore me until I remind them that hey, I’m here and I do understand you more or less.

      I mean, it depends on you and how fast you pick up languages, but immersion definitely helps you learn faster. If you decide that’s a thing you want to do. It’s pretty common for people to drift into their first language though – think how often even in the US, you hear people drift into Spanish or Chinese, it’s very frequently.

    8. BeachMum*

      I was hired to do marketing. I asked all of the right questions to ensure that I was to do marketing and not sales. I started and they had no phone (fortunately, I had a cell phone — it was a long time ago) and they didn’t have a computer for me. Also, I was supposed to do sales.

      I hung in there for a few months, but when I made my first big sale, and asked for commission, I was told I was doing marketing…which is when my job hunt started again.

    9. Dust Bunny*

      I don’t know if this is common or not but I sort of feel like it can’t be that uncommon, and that as a general thing if I were taking a job in another country I would expect to hit a language barrier whether the job claimed I would or not, simply because . . . it happens, because you don’t actually conduct your entire workday in strictly technical speak. And they may not have expected you to be as seemingly-resistant to learning the language as you sound here; maybe other foreign employees have decided to just learn it, anyway.

      1. Less Bread More Taxes*

        I just want to clarify that this isn’t a case of me being unwilling. I speak to coworkers in the language casually and that’s been fine. However, I’ve been told that I need to present some work in a twenty minute presentation, lead a workshop, and develop structure – all in the next couple of months and in this language. I would not have accepted the position if I’d known this.

        I have friends who have accepted similar positions, and they’ve said that their jobs are all in English due to their being a large number of foreigners in their offices.

        I really do want to learn the language, but I feel like I’ve been set up to fail.

        1. MENA region*

          Yeah, that seems kind of crazy, but maybe a great chance to really push yourself, if you really want to frame it positively.

          If you want to go for it, I would recommend working with a tutor who has a laser focus on your professional field. Forget learning to read the newspapers or understand movies for now…just focus on professional vocabulary and interactions. Of the thousands of words you need to know to speak a language well, you may as well focus on the few hundred words that will really relate to your job. Later you can learn the less-professionally-useful vocabulary (collander, sidewalk, etc).

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Can you write your materials in English and get the company to send it to a translator?
          (Vile thought, but at least you’d have materials to read.)

        3. AcademiaNut*

          Yeah, I work in Asia at a research institute, and the working language is in English specifically so they can recruit internationally. There are definitely times when I’m mostly with locals and they naturally slip back into the local language, and some of the higher up admin stuff isn’t bilingual, but they really do use English for meetings and presentations. It helps that it’s basically impossible to be a PhD level researcher in the field without being reasonably fluent in written English, at least.

          Your boss is being wildly unrealistic. There’s a world of difference between basic practical language and fluency, and if you’re going from English to an Asian language it’s a steep learning curve (much more so than, say, English to French or German). Here, it takes about a year of *full-time* classes to get to a good basic conversational/reading proficiency, and that doesn’t include technical language. For that matter, I have colleagues who can’t give professional talks in their native language, after doing university abroad in English – they don’t know the technical terms.

    10. cmcinnyc*

      I was going to say “not normal” but reading comments, apparently it is! At my job it is *strongly* discouraged using one’s personal device for anything because a lot of our work is subject to FOIA laws–and that could open up your personal device to being FOIA-ed. NOBODY wants that. So besides the cost and the boundary, I’d consider if there might be legal hassles as well. I guess this is in the “normal but crappy” category.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Oooo sorry that cross posted from another thread!

        I was going to say, this is why the one time I worked in another country I stumbled and struggled through the interview in their language–because that’s what I had to use every day.

    11. Val*

      I am also in a job abroad and language was also not a requirement. But I did notice that everyone expected that I would be fluent within 3 months. This is something lots of people expect from you. I have the feeling that it is because it is often seen/advertise on the internet nowadays. If you work with reasonable people you can explain them that this is not achievable when working a full-time job. (It personally took me three years – 160 hours of one on one lessons for it)

    12. CoffeeLover*

      Honestly, this company did an absolutely horrible thing to you. It’s really difficult to move to a new place where you don’t speak the language – and to sit quietly while everyone talks a language you don’t understand around you (been there, not fun). They should have been completely upfront about the fact that the entire office is local and speaks the local language. You could have chosen to come anyway, but at least you would be prepared for the fact that you would likely be excluded until you learned the language.

      I will say though that people who haven’t been in this scenario don’t really understand how tough and demoralizing it is. They may not have realized how much of a challenge it would be to have an English speaking person join them. They may have genuinely thought it wouldn’t be an issue and are now realizing that it actually is. And while ideally, they would acknowledge this and apologize, there are a lot of people in this world that have a hard time admitting they royally f-ed up. Depending on which country/company you moved to, there can also be a stigma about not being able to work in English (another reason they may not want to acknowledge it).

      On the plus side, if you really want to stay in this country then trial by fire is often the best way to learn a language.

      1. Less Bread More Taxes*

        Thanks for the support! I actually did choose this opportunity in order to learn a foreign language, so I’m going to stick with it for a bit at least for that reason alone.

        1. language nerd*

          Hi there, I’m a language teacher and normally people acquire languages from listening to and reading the language and being able to understand most of what they hear or read. As your listening and reading proficiency improves, you’ll later be able to write and speak with more and more fluency. I think it’s unrealistic for them to expect you to speak and present in the language until you are better with reading and listening. If possible, I would recommend streaming tv shows or movies in the target language with the subtitles also in the target language if available. Chrome has a fairly new add-on for netflix that can really help with this. I would also look for reading material–especially target language versions of books or stories that you’re already familiar with. Wikipedia is a good source for non-fiction reading in other languages.

    13. AnotherJill*

      Working in a different programming language is entirely normal. It becomes easier each time – a good way to start is to think in the language you know, and then translate – so I need a decision statement, how do I do that…. I need repetition, how do I do that.. Start thinking in terms of the basic features, then do some reading to see if there are libraries or practices that make sense for your project.

      1. JSPA*

        Yup, that’s pretty normal, but against the backdrop of using a lot of “equivalency awareness” to learn a foreign language to the point of business fluency, it’s a burden.

        I’d suggest much of the business presentation stuff be done by rote memorization! Including canned answers to several questions. sure it’s irritating when you answer a different question than what’s actually been asked… but people apparently accept it.

    14. Asenath*

      Being told you don’t need to speak a language, and then expected to learn it to fluency so quickly – and while working – doesn’t seem reasonable. I mean, I think it would probably be a great chance to learn it – but what were they thinking, saying first it wasn’t necessary and now suddenly it is? Adults don’t get fluent in a foreign language that quickly!

    15. Galahad*

      Moral support post here — I got a temporary job in Norway (8mos) and it stated that I needed to speak Norwegian or English, and 100% English was fine. I was in a big city and 90% of my co-workers spoke English fluently. To me. But, all the computer systems, meetings, coffee time / lunch chat, seminars, and interruptions by people on the street was in Norwegian (I look northern european, I guess?). I would constantly need to explain the need to switch to English and it drove me a bit batty (headaches) as I was trying to rapidly learn the language and could almost understand what they were saying / meant, but I never quite enough. I started to wear headphones, even with no music on, to stop being randomly approached in another language unless I was prepared for that discussion and not just trying to chill.

      And the programming languages thing is extremely common — they want you/ hire you for a new skillset they don’t have, for a directly that the company clearly needs to go into, but then more urgently need you to help maintain existing systems or build the bridge between existing and new tech. It can take a year or two for them to fully transition over to the new stuff… If you continue to do well and hang in there, it ususally does go to what you were hired for.

    16. it's me*

      It kind of seems like whoever hired you either was deeply misinformed or was… fudging the truth to bring you onboard.

    17. Zephy*

      This sounds like the worst kind of Ask vs Guess culture clash, especially considering your addendum below. Maybe it’s time to try sitting down with your boss and having a discussion about expectations. You aren’t a mind-reader!

    18. Weegie*

      For no. 1, the language issue, this is not normal in my experience. I worked overseas a lot until relatively recently, and it would be usual to encounter one of the following scenarios:

      1. They know you don’t speak the language, and it isn’t an issue for your job, although you probably need it to survive outside of work & you’ll be expected to learn the local language in your own time.
      2. They know you don’t speak the language, but you will need it for the job at least part of the time and they will organise lessons for you – and probably expect you to get up to speed fairly rapidly.
      3. You need to be able to speak the language and they won’t hire you unless you have a certain level of proficiency already: it’ll be clear whether you do or don’t before you start work, as the application and interview processes will be conducted wholly or partly in the local language.

    19. Not So Little My*

      Having to learn additional programming languages is totally normal. And it’s not really that hard once you have reached a level of proficiency with your core language so that you can recognize different principles of programming and commonalities and differences. Pluralsight is your friend – see if you can get a license from work because it’s a few hundred bucks a year which is hard to do on your own sometimes. Also check your local library to see if you can get free access to O’Reilly Safari books online. If you’re a self-starter and an extrovert, ask around for your co-workers to see if they want to form a study group over lunchtime. As a senior software engineer, I would totally apply for jobs outside my core language if I was excited by the company otherwise, and many managers are like “yeah, you’re awesome, you know your stuff, we understand you’ll take a little while to ramp up on the new language and deliver at the same level as our longer-term team members” but you are expected to deliver, even if a bit more slowly.

    20. Tau*

      #2 – I’d consider this one fairly normal? Like, part of what people want in a software developer is to have someone who can pick up new languages on the fly and isn’t wedded to one technology. And they will sometimes hire devs from a different language background with the expectation that they pick up the new language quickly. Ideally, they’d make this expectation clear in the interview, of course.

      #1, on the other hand, I’m going to call not normal. Like, I’m in an English-language company in a non-English-speaking country myself. I get what people are saying about watercooler talk, and I’ll add on that I think not speaking [language] becomes problematic if you have a lot of contact with externals and clients – so roles like the upper levels of management, recruiters, office managers, etc. But software developers aren’t generally in this group. It’s a reasonable expectation, when hired under these terms, that internal meetings will be in English and it’s the standard working language… and it’s absolutely not appropriate for your boss to start pressuring you into trying to learn the language ASAP (to the point of being able to do a technical presentation!! the mind boggles) and act like you’re the problem. Not liking this situation has nothing to do with being a “whiny American” – I’d be up in arms as well.

      1. MENA region*

        Yes. To flip the situation–I work in the US in a nonprofit with a lot of international or immigrant employees who speak English as a second language. Would I ever hire someone who didn’t speak English and expect them to get up to speed in a few months? No, because A) ridiculous, and B) a lot of our non-native-speaking employees have lived in the U.S. for literally decades and we still run into language issues occasionally despite the fact that they would reasonably be considered fluent in English.

        For example, certain of them will grasp the literal meaning of what’s said without catching the implications–for example, we give examples of a problem and occasionally they understand the examples we’ve mentioned but don’t realize that we’re actually talking about the overarching issue that these examples point to, not the examples themselves. I really enjoy these coworkers and it’s totally worth it to stop and rephrase when needed. But it is an example of how even spending a lot of time (decades) practicing a language is not a guarantee that you’ll function perfectly in it when it comes to a subtle work conversation, so it’s important to set reasonable expectations for the kind of work you’d be able to do in the language after several months.

        1. Tau*

          I’m one of, like, three native English speakers (ish in my case) in my whole company, and although it is nowhere remotely near my job description the publicity people like to get me to read through English-language content for e.g. our website prior to publication. Because even though these are people who have been working in English professionally for sometimes on the order of decades, they’re still not native speakers and they miss nuances sometimes.

          Such as that time I went “uh, this first sentence here in the newsletter you plan to send out? You… realise this reads as a reference to sex, right?” and no, they had not.

          But sure, you can just get up to speed in a new language in a few months, that’s totally a reasonable expectation.

          1. MENA region*

            Omg, yeah, I’ve done the same thing in Arabic which I studied for 5 years, including one entire year in which I *only* studied Arabic for 6-10 hours per day. I wrote something where I used the word “practicing” in Arabic intending to refer to practicing skills and someone was like, “Uh in Arabic that sounds like it’s short for ‘practicing love’ (i.e. making love).” Arhgghghghg! So yeah, even though I am “fluent” in Arabic and I do use it professionally, I still make these incredibly embarassing mistakes.

          2. Maria Lopez*

            I have an American friend who is a professional translator and interpreter in France, and when working with contracts and other business documents she translates ONLY from French to English, and her French cohorts do English to French. They even have subsets of translators for medical, business, legal, etc. subjects. There are too many subtleties that are missed if you are not a native speaker (just look at those instructions in “English” for electronics manufactured in Asian countries).

    21. ProfessorHidgens*

      This might be an area so broad that there is no “normal”, but for what it’s worth, I am also very early career, living abroad and working for a local company with no real command of the local language (I’m working on it!) and it’s been a great experience. I was flatly honest at every stage of the hiring process that I had never studied language and couldn’t guarantee I’d be able to pick it up, was reassured that that would be no issue and it hasn’t been. So, I think you got an unlucky bounce.

  11. Kristine*

    I’m wondering if it’s normal for managers to keep an interview process for a new team member super secretive from their team.

    I gave my manager many months of notice that I was leaving (told her in early December, my last day is next week). In the meeting where I gave my notice she said that she would hire someone to have at least 2 weeks of overlap for training. However, I’m now one week away from my last day and have heard nothing about a potential replacement. I know the job ad went up because I saw it online, but I have no idea if interviews have been conducted, if she’s making an offer to someone soon, or what’s going to happen next week. This is strange to me because in past jobs I’ve interviewed my own replacement, so it’s weird to be kept so out of the loop. I will say that this manager has communication problems across the board.

    Also, another one of my team members (Amy) is leaving at the same time. I only know this because Amy told me directly. Our manager never made a formal announcement to our team and told Amy that she’s not supposed to tell anyone she’s leaving, but Amy decided to tell our team so we weren’t blindsided. This morning our manager came over to our team’s office and introduced us to Bert, who is Amy’s replacement. Today is his first day and Amy is training him now. But our manager still never officially told us that Amy is leaving! Bert just showed up today out of the blue; not even Amy knew he was being hired or that she’d be training him today.

    This is weird, right?

    2. Drax*

      Unfortunately yes. It’s pretty normal that some companies operate in a cloak and dagger type secrecy and others are really open. It’s a office culture thing, but pretty 50/50

    3. Rose*

      Sadly, not weird. This isn’t great communication, but in my experience it’s more common for these discussions to stay at the manager level until someone is at a minimum about to be made an offer, and often until they have accepted it or even started. I don’t think it’s ideal, but it’s not uncommon.

    4. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Yes this is weird, any time we’ve had new starters, we’ve known. It can vary whether they are internal or external (usually more information for internals) but never just on the day they start

    5. CustServGirl*

      Weird, but unfortunately it can be kinda normal. I’ve had that happen at my work place where we either receive short notice or no notice at all that someone has left or has been hired.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      Its not abnormal just not necessarily best practice.
      I was the only one who knew a replacement had been hired for a certain position because I was also in the running for it. I think the rest of the group got a one-day notice or something. An email Friday afternoon saying “we hired new person, they start on Monday”

    9. Perse's Mom*

      That’s very weird. That level of non-communication seems like a great way to prevent institutional knowledge from being passed on. It’s like sabotaging your own team!

      1. Kristine*

        This was my thought. I can understand not being privy to all the information about the hiring process, but if I leave next week without a replacement then who is going to do my job? My teammates and manager know the big-picture outcomes of what I do but not what my actual day-to-day work looks like.

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      Weird. Might happen elsewhere, but anywhere I’ve been it’s always been open about any recruiting in the department, and definitely for a replacement, outgoing member is often involved.

    12. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Not a good practice, but common in dysfunctional workplaces.

      Lucky for you and Amy, it’s not going to be your problem!

    15. Catsaber*

      It’s common, and I think it can be okay if the situation really calls for privacy. For example, we recently hired someone from another team in our department. The guy we hired wasn’t happy with his current team, so he didn’t want his boss to know until he had an offer. So normally my boss would bring the team in for the interviews and give us all the details, but he was respecting this guy’s privacy so he didn’t tell us anything. However – he did tell us “I’m in the process of interviewing someone, but in order to respect their privacy, I can’t share details.” So it wasn’t just *totally* secretive – my boss explained the situation to us and why he couldn’t give more info.

      So whether or not it’s good or bad depends on how it’s being handled.

    17. rldk*

      The weird part to me is the no heads-up whatsoever about team members leaving! I’ve had varying levels of knowledge of hiring processes, but in the past couple of workplaces, leaving coworkers told the team at the manager’s direction/with their approval within a couple days of giving notice. The timeline usually depended on whether or not the manager wanted a roadmap of how responsibilities would be passed over.

      [At my last job, coworkers actually told each other first, because our manager was terrible and we were all desperately job-hunting. So it was a legitimate celebration of “I’m getting out of here!” But I know that’s definitely not what happens in healthy offices]

    18. Jules the 3rd*

      Not weird in the US – varies by company culture and specific managers. Usually, in my experience, the ‘secrecy’ is that the manager’s too overworked / busy to send out announcements, not a deliberate attempt to hide something.

    19. KittiesLuvYou*

      Weird and unfortunately very normal. Every company I’ve worked for have been bad about communicating employees’ hiring/leaving.

    20. Lia*

      A sign of terrible HR for sure, but not weird. A lot of places do this, especially in the non-profit space.

    22. TurquoiseCow*

      In an old job, my boss’s boss hired me without telling my boss. My boss had been complaining that he wanted a new employee to assist him, but his boss did not tell him that he was interviewing, never mind that he had hired me.

      In fairness, it wasn’t an all out job search on boss’s boss’s part. I worked for a company that this company bought out, and, as I was interested in moving up, I went to a job fair and met with a recruiter. The recruiter thought I might be good at this job, so he recommended me to the director. The director interviewed me, decided he wanted to hire me, and did all the work required to get me on board. He just didn’t tell the guy I was going to be reporting to. Literally at 4:30 on a Friday, as he was walking out the door, he said, “Oh, by the way, your new person starts on Monday.” That was all the notice my boss got.

      I’ve never been involved in an interview process as a peer. I know in some places they do this, but I’ve never been asked to join an interview or give my opinion on a potential hire, aside from a few times where I recommended a person.

    23. seeingbothsides*

      I am a higher ed administrator, and we are always tinkering with how to message that people are leaving. It gets complicated when someone has been fired or when we’ve had to do lay-offs. We don’t want staff to know when someone has been fired, so we want the communication to be similar in all circumstances. We’ve gone through phases of sending out emails to the entire staff and other phases of sending emails only to managers, then expecting them to pass on the information as relevant. We’ve also gone through phases of sending very terse emails without details: “So-and-so is leaving on XX date” and more personal, friendly emails “We’d like to thank so-and-so for all their hard work on XYZ and wish them the best of luck, etc etc.” My point is that it’s a difficult balance to get right– obviously you want people to have relevant information about a co-worker leaving, but in some cases you need to protect individuals’ privacy and the privacy of personnel decision-making. I’m not surprised at all that some companies don’t get that balance right, and that it ends up being weird.

    24. Alana*

      I think this depends a lot on your company. Neither of these things would raise an eyebrow for me. We don’t have a standard procedure for announcing departures and often do it on the last day or week, assuming people who work closely with the person are told earlier.

      It wouldn’t occur to me to have a departing employee interview their replacement. Sometimes we want to go in a different direction with a new hire, and it doesn’t make sense to have someone who won’t even be at the organization when that person starts (or is leaving soon after) weighing in on a hiring decision. There are enough stakeholders who want in on the interview process who WILL be working with them, signing off on the hire, etc.

    25. Amethystmoon*

      At a bigger company, not entirely weird. It all depends. Sometimes they just want to make sure the person doing the training doesn’t just quit on the spot.

    26. Nobody Nowhere*

      In my office it’s really common for people to forget to tell the admins about this kind of thing. We’ll suddenly overhear people talking in the common area about Fergus retiring next week or that Jane starts on Monday. The professionals we support have known for weeks, but nobody bothered to tell us.

    28. Someone Else*

      I’m sort of divided here. I do think it’s not normal for it to be secretive, but it is normal for it to not be widely shared? So like, he told you one thing at the start and then gave you no info since? That’s pretty normal. But if you asked about it and he were evasive or lied or hid it or just straight said it’s not for you to know, that would be not normal.
      Not announcing about Amy and Bert just showing up like that is more indicative that the boss is kinda disorganized I think? If Amy were in the loop about that part but no one else that might be normal depending on context although I wouldn’t say it’s great. But it’s not unusual.

    29. Coder von Frankenstein*

      ” However, I’m now one week away from my last day and have heard nothing about a potential replacement.”

      Not particularly weird IMO. If the boss hasn’t got a replacement lined up, she hasn’t got one lined up, and there’s not really much to say. Poor communication maybe, but not unusual.

      “Our manager never made a formal announcement to our team and told Amy that she’s not supposed to tell anyone she’s leaving.”

      Now *that* qualifies as Not Normal. It’s important for the people who will still be there to know that they’re going to be down a member! Moreover, when somebody up and vanishes one day, it’s generally assumed that something very bad went down. No sensible boss would want that kind of speculation around the office if it could be avoided.

    30. Glitsy Gus*

      It’s weird and your manager is kind of shooting herself in the foot, but it isn’t abnormal.

      Fortunately, it isn’t your problem! If she can’t get you someone to train before your last day, just try to leave clear instructions and as few loose ends as you can and ask if there is anyone on your team you should be including in your wrap up information, seeing as your last day is one week away. I know you want to be a good person and not screw over your other teammates or the new person coming in, but it really isn’t your responsibility beyond making sure the work you’re leaving is as clean and clear as possible.

      It really is possible they just haven’t gotten enough good candidates yet, but if she’s just not sharing to not share, well, that’s on her. She gets to have her own need for secrecy bite her in the butt when she has to be the one to deal with the you-sized hole in the department.

    31. Onyx*

      Weird but normal-ish. I’ve noticed companies don’t like to announce people’s departures (they probably think it is bad for morale) but I haven’t encountered outright forbidding to tell your own team that you’re leaving. They should give the team a head’s up on the replacement before the person shows up though!

  12. Rocky McRockface*

    How much positive feedback/appreciation can I really expect? I’m in my first real job out of college at a llama care consulting firm. I’m salaried but there’s usually at least a few days a month where I will work 10-11 doing llama wrangling in the field (which is always outdoors and physically exhausting) and my manager has never even said thank you or acknowledged the extra time I put in.

    Also, for anyone that works on a system of billable hours, do you bill for the “start-up” time it takes you to dive into a task? For example if I finish one thing it will often take me 10-15 minutes to figure out what needs to be done next and get myself set up to work on that thing. Is it normal to bill that time to a project or do you bill it to overhead? I am the only employee of this company so I can’t really ask co-workers and my boss is consistently telling me that I need to bill more hours, but I have a hard time switching tasks efficiently.

    2. Four lights*

      Paralegal here. If I am looking at the Jones matter and reviewing things a bit to remind myself what I need to do next, I bill for it.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        Same here I think if you are looking at info on a specific case/client to see what needs to be done next for that case/client or to get back up to speed on a case, that is billable to the case/client. But if you are looking at your overall case/client load to decide what case/client you need to deal with next, that would be billable to overhead/admin.

      2. Lucy*

        Also paralegal, and yes. Narrative will be something like “reviewing Jones file and preparing llama certification documentation” which includes the five minutes working out why the heck last year’s certificate isn’t on file, etc.

        We were once billed for two hours of a local specialist’s time for “lying awake worrying about the case”. That invoice was queried and ultimately cancelled. Be cleverer with your wording!

        1. PhyllisB*

          This is a bit of sidetrack; but when my daughter was getting a divorce I went to drop off some requested paperwork. The paralegal heard me and directed the receptionist to send me back. I went back and she started asking me questions about how’s the family/grand-kids were doing. (We had attended church together years before so this was not any big deal.) The thing is, she did not refer to the paperwork a single time then sent a bill for a consultation. You better believe I kicked up a fuss about that and DID NOT pay it. They never contested it.

    3. Jamey*

      I definitely think cycling up time is a normal part of doing business and therefore fair to bill to a project.

    4. Susan Calvin*

      Prep-work is work, bill it.

      We do have a specific booking code for overhead caused by us, like scheduling issues requiring a staffing change and hand over mid-project, or if we’re using client work as Baby’s First Project for a new hire in their first few weeks of training, but otherwise, nope.

    5. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      Lawyer here. We “bill” (it’s a nonprofit so no client actually gets a bill) all the time we’re at work individually, with set funding codes for each task. So, say my day looks like this:

      9:00 – Arrive at work, make a cup of tea
      9:12 – Sit at my desk, start work on Jones case
      9:30 – Get up to pee
      9:36 – On way back from bathroom, ask fellow lawyer about Jones case, also chat about her new nephew
      Etc.

      I bill the tea as “misc. supporting activities” (not to any particular case), and bill work on the case (including the time when I get up to pee or talk to my coworker) as case time.

    7. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      Not getting praise for doing your job (even if it’s hard) is pretty normal – you get a salary for doing your job.

      Now, it totally sucks, and a good boss is going to give you feedback; however, there are a lot of not-good bosses out there.

      1. Kettles*

        You get a salary for working 8 hours of your job. If you’re routinely working 3 extra hours a day it’s worth working out if your compensation makes that worth it. And whether you are being taken advantage of. I spent a lot of time when younger working excessive hours for low salaries and my typical reward was that it simply became expected, and working less than 10 hour days was seen as slacking. Not because the industry expected it; because they were too cheap to hire the amount of staff needed.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      First point – really sucks, but not always abnormal :( but it does suck. A lot. The little “thank you” or “I appreciated the effort on X” really, really make a difference, and I think it’s not good practice not to do them.

      But normal.

    9. Notinstafamous*

      I bill for file prep time (reviewing the documents, refreshing myself on the file, etc) but not for “me” prep time (organizing my list of things to do, working out urgency/priorities, etc.).

    10. CAA*

      Appreciation and positive feedback are highly dependent on the individuals involved. Some people like to give a lot of thanks and compliments and some people like to get a lot of that feedback. Other people feel weird about giving or getting thanks for things that are just a normal part of the job, such as putting in extra hours a few days a month. It sounds like you and your manager are not on the same wavelength about how much verbal appreciation you’d like to receive; and since you’re the only employee, your manager is probably not used to adapting her management style to cope with different employee communication styles. I don’t know that there’s anything you can do about this, but maybe it will help to think of it as the two of you having different communication preferences.

      1. T Ferguson*

        Ditto on this. When I became a manager I checked in with each member of my new team to see how they liked appreciation showed- I’ve got one team member who thrives when she gets a quick callout for doing a little extra in a larger group meeting, and another who strongly prefers to never be singled out and even one-on-one praise to be sparing and only for really major things.

        If you wanted to raise this from the employee end, I’d suggest maybe phrasing it as a check-in with the new job. If you could phrase it to suggest that you want to be sure you’re doing well, or that you’re curious how the current workload compares to the normal workload, it could tip your manager off that more feedback/recognition is in order.

    11. BookLady*

      Gosh, positive feedback is something that varies so much from manager to manager. I’ve been in places where my bosses barely said “thank you” to me and places where higher ups would email me with great, specific feedback and copy my manager. Honestly, I think it’s normal to see a wide range of positive feedback depending on the people you’re working for. Not to say that you should settle for a lack of feedback, and you might be able to approach your boss to ask for more feedback, good and bad, in general. But I haven’t found one normal level of feedback that all managers give.

      I have no experience in billable hours, so I can’t help there.

    12. Anonymous Poster*

      Billing spin up time is similar to billing retooling time in a factory. A factory will bill that time, and you need to also. Some items may require more mental retooling than others, and they need to pay for that. Perfectly normal.

      Unfortunately in most jobs, I’ve only had positive feedback during check in meetings or when I specifically asked for it. It’s normal for most managers to not do a great job with feedback, in my experience.

    13. Yorick*

      I’d think if you’re spending time setting up for a task for a project, you bill to that project. If you’re spending time doing something that’s more broadly administrative, you bill to overhead.

    14. Hallowflame*

      Feedback/appreciation is going to vary widely based on your manager. Some managers will wait until some kind of formal review to give positive feedback, and will only issue corrections or critiques in the mean time. Others will be a constant source of feedback, good and bad. And then some will be completely opaque the entire time you work for them, and you will never know where you stand.
      If you are only looking for affirmation of a job well-done, you will probably need to adjust your expectations. If you need constructive feedback from your manager on a regular basis, you can speak to your manager and ask if this would be possible. Just be prepared for the possibility that your manager may decline to accommodate.

    15. Asenath*

      I rarely get direct thanks. I don’t really expect it – I think I’d be embarrassed if I got it – and I have the kind of job where no one notices much if I do it right because things happen on schedule, everything goes smoothly – who notices that?

    16. Ethyl*

      Geologist here who worked for environmental consulting firms, with two thoughts:

      1. If fieldwork with long hours is an expected part of your job, it’s not realistic to expect your PMs or manager to thank you for basically doing your job. If you’re going above and beyond on things then sure, and sometimes even a bonus gets handed out. But it’s also very individual-dependent — some people are a lot more effusive about stuff like that and some folks aren’t.

      2. Check with your PM or whoever on if driving time is billed. When I worked for a company that handled multiple clients and types of projects, some contracts were specific that drive time was to be billed to the project, while some you would bill to an admin task or not bill (say, if you had a drive of five minutes from your hotel). Time onsite is usually always billed.

      Hope that helps!

    17. LKW*

      Some managers are good at feedback, some are bad. My first manager thanked me every day. Sincerely too. Another manager never had good feedback. Only bad. Never said thank you.
      My current boss will say “I think you’re doing xyz well, however I think when it comes to ABC, I’d like to see you watch out for this and avoid this and do this thing better.” Really good examples of what I can do better and how to approach a problem.

      If you need feedback – ask your manager for feedback.

    18. Jules the 3rd*

      Positive feedback varies widely by industry / company / specific manager.

      Industry / company: In finance or nursing, 11hr days are normal. Transportation – 11hr days at end of month / quarter, but not the rest of the time. You can check whether your 11hr days are unusual by looking at whether everyone at your level spends a few days doing them. If yes, don’t expect positive feedback.

      Specific manager: My best manager met with me 1×1 at least monthly, and gave me honest feedback about what was going well and what wasn’t. He would have given positive feedback on 11 hr days, even if they were normal, at least once. My current manager meets 1×1 maybe 3 times a year and doesn’t know enough about my job to comment on what I actually do. You can guess why I liked one better, but I also know my best mgr had 6 reports and my current manager has over 20.

      If you want positive feedback, make sure you have a regular meeting with your manager where you can tell them what you’re doing. Not in a ‘wrangled for 11 hours and boy are my arms tired’ way, but in a ‘wrangled 48 llamas today! It took me 11 hours, is that about normal speed?’

      It happens, a lot, that managers aren’t fully aware of everything you do.

    19. Samwise*

      RE positive feedback: It is pretty normal to not get lots of direct appreciation. Depends on your office and manager. If you need to get more than you’re getting, try scheduling a regular check in meeting with your manager (weekly? monthly? whatever makes sense for your workplace) where you go over where you are re various duties/projects/goal, what you’ve accomplished, what’s still in progress, upcoming goals, how well you are doing.

    20. CRM*

      For the portion of your question that deals with lack of positive feedback- I’d say that’s pretty common. There are a lot of managers who don’t understand the importance of it. It’s just something you have to get used to.

      I know how you’re feeling though. During my first job out of college, my manager only ever discussed problems and mistakes with me. I was accustomed to the academic environment, which is built on consistent feedback of all kinds, so when I didn’t receive any positive feedback from my boss I assumed there was none to give. It wasn’t until I left that my boss exclaimed that I was an excellent employee and that my leaving would be a big loss for the company. I was so surprised! I genuinely thought I was a mediocre employee because I had never received any affirmation that I was doing well at my job.

    21. Safetykats*

      The amount of positive feedback you get from your boss is normally a function of your boss’s personality, and how often you interface with your boss. Some managers don’t think to thank people for doing their jobs – unless you’ve really gone over and above on something pretty important or visible. Some managers just don’t go out of their way to do so – so whether they express positive feedback depends on how available you are to express it to. So I’m going to say this is definitely within the spectrum of normal, although in your career you will probably have managers who are more effusive.

    22. A Consultant*

      Re: billable hours. First, I agree with the consensus that you bill “getting your head in the game” time to that project, especially because the boss is on you about more billable hours.

      However, I also think it would be really good for you to talk to your boss about it and about best practices for billing your time – ESPECIALLY because you are a two-person consulting company. He/she has a way that they think about billable time already, a way of approaching this kind of time tracking, even if they haven’t made it explicit. Take this as an opportunity to ask for guidance/clarification on the nuances now that you’ve been on the job for a while. As a boss of junior consultants in the past, this is a conversation I welcomed because I’d rather they do it right and consistently than just be wildly guessing. This isn’t a thing new employees just KNOW how to do.

    23. Mel*

      Positive feedback will vary from company to company – or even manager to manager. I never thought I cared about it until one day, after 9 years at a company, I got a new manager who gave lots of great feedback. It felt wonderful! But that was the first time in 9 years.

      I definitely bill “start up time” to the next project. Figuring out that you need to do a project is part of a project.

    24. Not So NewReader*

      For your own peace of mind, assume you will get little to no expression of appreciation. This has helped me to better HEAR appreciation when it does come out.
      “You took over X and that has been a load off my mind since you did that.”
      “Nice catch on Y, lots of people miss it.”
      “Oh you are just the person I wanted to see….”
      Expressions of appreciation can come in odd costumes. It pays to listen closely for those tidbits.

      I did work one place where the way you knew you were doing a good job was because no one “yelled” at you. I taught myself to understand what silence means. I simply assumed silence meant something bad was simmering, and this is not always true. I found it was a good strategy to assume things were going well until I was directly told they were not going well. This does not mean act like a know-it-all. It just means there is no need to keep looking around nervously when there is no immediate reason. Still ask questions and be receptive to people who want to give you tips.

    25. Bulbasaur*

      Point #1 varies a lot by company, but unfortunately your situation is not all that uncommon.

      Point #2: in most case it would be normal to bill this time. If it’s avoidable (for example, context switching from working on multiple things at once) then it can make sense to find ways to cut down on it, but if you’re doing it then you bill for it.

    26. Rose by another name*

      Just stopping by to thank people for this thread. I’m lucky to have a supervisor who gives clear, detailed feedback about what needs to be changed, but the office culture doesn’t include abundant praise. Silence on a subject means that I’ve met the (stringent, for good reason) standards.

      I’m fine with that after figuring out that’s how life works around here, but it did take a little adjustment.

  13. Anon16*

    This is the perfect post for me! I’m currently an Executive Assistant at a mid-sized company. During my phone interview, I was asked if I would be willing to do up to 10 hours of receptionist work. I said yes – I hadn’t planned to stay in the job long-term, so I didn’t mind doing that short-term.

    When I got to the job, I found out there was no set schedule, it was just whenever the receptionist had to leave the desk to do other responsibilities. That meant I could get requests last minute (less than 24 hours or sometimes within 30 minutes), which made it difficult to schedule work/meetings. Additionally, the reception desk was in another building that was a ~15 minute drive. This didn’t happen too frequently, so it a minor inconvenience but still a little annoying.

    Recently, however they’ve asked to designate 10 hours/week to work as the receptionist. This is after a year of having it occasionally, so I feel I’ve developed a rapport in my current office, and it feels like a significant change in the job at hand, despite the fact I’d agreed to do it during the initial phone interview. I’m an Executive Assistant, so I feel my priority should be near my boss, even physically. There are still changes in the schedule, sometimes last minute – we had scheduled it towards the end of the day to cut out travel time (30mins/day), but I still get requests for changes in coverage if there’s an emergency the receptionist needs to attend to.

    I’ve pushed back a little , but was essentially told by my boss this is how things are for now and I need to suck it up. I like this company and want to stay long-term, but I am concerned that this isn’t a good use of my time.

    I think this is inconvenient, not a good use of either of our time. The receptionist does a LOT of work that is not reception work (hence why I need to cover), and they’ve opted for this solution vs. promoting her and hiring someone else. On my end, I’m pulled away 25% of my time doing essentially a different job in a different office.

    Am I being unreasonable? Everything about this company is great, this is just one weird hiccup. I don’t want to leave, but don’t want to be doing reception work long-term.

    Any options/advice is helpful.

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      So I’ve worked with a lot of EAs and this is not normal. In my company there’s a strong understanding that EAs have to be flexible and able to do whatever the exec needs whenever
      However, I see that in your post that your boss (assuming the exec) has told you this is how it is. With that in mind, they clearly feel that you covering is a priority, so you might need to accept that

    2. Emily*

      I don’t think anyone is being unreasonable. Like, if you said you were regularly working extra hours beyond what you were previously working or expected to be, that would be unreasonable of them, and I’d say you should push back more on that. But if they’ve decided that this is a good use of your time, that’s ultimately their call. And if you decide this isn’t the kind of work you want to be doing and you find another job, that’s your call.

      1. Anon16*

        It’s eating into lunch breaks and my ability to do personal things (errands during the work day). It has not ate into my ability to complete my work yet, so I haven’t pushed back against that. It’s annoying, though. Like I said, I don’t always take breaks for lunch so that’s how it’s impacting things.

        I don’t want to leave because this company is great in a lot of other aspects, but I feel they’re forcing me out by telling me this is what I need to do. I’m 27, so I’m thinking about my career long-term and don’t feel this is a good use of my time.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Losing your lunch breaks due to this arrangement does seem abnormal, particularly if you’re exempt. The rest of it is annoying but yeah, it happens – if they only need a 25% FTE for that role, they’re very unlikely to hire a 100% FTE.

        2. CmdrShepard4ever*

          You don’t like the reception work and based on the other work you need to do it doesn’t seem like a good use of your time. Really it is YOUR (I don’t mean this in a bad or negative way) circumstances that changed, you were not planning to stay long in the position so you figured 10 hrs a week of receptionist work is fine. But now that you are thinking of staying long term you don’t want to do 10 hours a week of reception work, that if your prerogative (that is great if that is what you want), but now you have to decide if the job is worth it the way it is now. The company/boss has decided that 10 hrs a week of reception work is a good use of your time.

          I get why you feel that they might be forcing you out. But I don’t think they are trying to do that. They were very honest and upfront with you on what their needs were. That fact that in the first year they didn’t use you up to the 10 hrs of reception work a week they asked about doesn’t mean they switched the job on you.

          I get it I work in an admin role that is a kinda a grade above receptionist, but I occasionally will have to fill in and do receptionist work. Doing it occasionally I don’t mind it, but if the roll was 10/30 or 20/20 hr split I would not want to do it. I would start looking for another job.

        3. BookLady*

          Agree with Rusty. Losing your lunch breaks is not normal.

          You said this hasn’t cut into your ability to do your work yet, but you also say that it doesn’t feel like a good use of your time. Your boss clearly thinks it is a good use of your time because they’ve continued to ask you to do it, and it hasn’t affected your work output in your EA role. I imagine you feel this way because it’s eating into your personal time for lunch and errands, which is totally understandable. But that means it’s a different conversation with your boss.

          If your lunch is time that you are allowed to take, it’s reasonable for you to tell your boss that in order to do the coverage you’re being asked to do, it’s impacting your lunch breaks in X way. (“I only get 5 minutes to scarf down food before I have to be ‘on’ at the reception desk” or “Time that I used to allocate to running personal errands over my lunch break is now spend driving to the other office” or whatever.) Ask if there’s anything that can be done to make sure you get your break time, especially if your state labor laws dictate that you must get certain breaks.

          Sorry, this moved a little beyond the normal/not normal ask, but ultimately, I think that if your boss is telling you that this is part of your job, that’s their prerogative, and it’s in the realm of normal. But being forced to give up your break time, especially if certain breaks are legally mandated, may not be normal.

          1. Patty Mayonnaise*

            Seconding everything Booklady said – the abnormal part of this is losing your lunch break to do this work and still get everything done.

          2. Glitsy Gus*

            Yes. Some of this is weird, and I would say not normal (DRIVING between two desks is not normal) but my concern is the breaks.

            If you are non-exempt you do need to bring up to your boss that while you can do this, you also legally need to be able to take a break, and the 15 minute drive doesn’t count. I would also say something like, “while I am still able to complete the work you are assigning, this arrangement is making it very difficult to schedule the weekly teapot roundup meeting and I’m regularly having to move the Saucer Simposium. How would you like me to adjust this so it can work?”

            Then I would look for a new EA gig. I wouldn’t say this is a GET OUT NOW thing, but it is a don’t let the grass grow around your shoes one. This is not a great situation for you and unless it is a weird, “this is only for 6 months until someone is back from maternity leave” situation or something I can see this going south for you when you look to get promoted but are denied because either a) it’s a pain to find someone else to help cover Reception and you’re just so GOOD at it. Or b) spending so much time at Reception (and driving back and forth) has prevented you from learning the necessary “promotable skills” and therefore cannot move forward. I have been in this boat and it sucks and is very demoralizing. Go ahead and use this as a springboard to something better, don’t stay until you’re worn out and stuck.

      2. Anon16*

        Sorry if I come across as whine-y at all. I haven’t had enough coffee and am a little cranky.

        1. valentine*

          I think you can find an employer where you can focus on your EA work.

          They could hire a temp. This doesn’t make sense. The fact they didn’t tell you all the details and they want to formalize it isn’t good. Stop giving up your lunch and meetings (unless the latter is mandatory). Tell them you need x minutes’ notice.

      1. Salamander*

        Yeah, this. The fact that you actually have to change locations to do coverage is not normal.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah, I was thinking the thing that pushes this from normal to weird for me is that it’s a 15 minute DRIVE to the reception desk that needs covering. Pop down the hall, sure. From the seventh floor to the third, no big. Fifteen minute drive? That’s weird.

        1. Anon16*

          I should be clear – 15 minutes between leaving my office and getting to the other building, the drive itself is not 15 minutes.

          1. ..Kat..*

            This 30 minutes should be time that is on the clock. This is different from your commute to and from home. I am assuming you are non-exempt. So if you are losing part of your lunch hour, you should be paid for this time.

            If they are calling you exempt, I recommend you look up the legal definition of it online.

        3. theletter*

          +1 this. Driving to another building to cover a desk is very weird. I feel like “accidentally” getting stuck in traffic once or twice ought to solve this problem for you.

      3. Sam.*

        Right, I was fully prepared to be like, “Yep, normal,” until I saw that she has a 15 minute commute specifically to do this coverage. As a regular thing, that seems odd and annoying. Hope there’s plenty of parking near the other building…

      4. The New Wanderer*

        It just doesn’t seem like a good use of anyone’s time here. The EA is being physically uprooted from her primary (more challenging) duties to cover the less challenging aspects of the receptionist’s job while the receptionist does more challenging things. Wouldn’t the company be better off with a part timer or temp to manage the reception work?

        But the question is, is it normal? I’d say borderline because the covering part seems normal and was mentioned up front, but the actual practice of disrupting your main work and driving to another building part of every day seems poorly executed.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It does not seem normal to have someone *drive* from another building to cover the desk.

      That being said, it doesn’t sound like you’re going to get a change at this point, so the best advice I can give you is not to kill yourself to do everything. If losing that commute time means other things don’t get done, well, that’s just too bad. Management won’t make a change until they see a negative impact.

      1. TurquoiseCow*

        This. Don’t bust your butt to get everything done, or they’ll think things are fine. Let things fall by the wayside and when they ask why those things aren’t done, explain that it’s because you were off being a receptionist.

        If it was the same building it’d make sense, but having you drive over to another building is silly. Is there no one in that building you can cover for the receptionist?

        1. Anon16*

          Everyone else in that building works in the field. I’m an Executive Assistant so I think they’d prefer if I do it. My job isn’t client-facing. Junior people do cover her lunch breaks.

    5. TooTiredToThink*

      I worked at a place where they had the (sort of) EAs cover for the Receptionist for breaks/absences on a rotating basis. I don’t think that’s unusual at all, personally. However what I do find odd is that you have to travel to do this coverage. If its phone coverage; can they set up your phone for overflow calls?

    6. Bopper*

      Seems normal

      You agreed to do the receptionist work when you took the job.

      If you don’t like this, then perhaps this is not the right job for you.

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        The coverage, sure, that’s very normal. But needing to DRIVE to the Reception desk? That is not.

    7. CL*

      It’s not uncommon at all. In my experience, it tends to happen more at small and mid-sized companies, since they don’t usually have the number of people needed to cover every task, especially unexpected events. And in this economy, I’m not surprised that the company would rather continue this way rather than spend the money to hire a new employee. This is especially the case if the receptionist themselves have not complained about the workload, since they’re the one who is being pulled all over.

      What is uncommon (again, in my experience) is for the company to be so upfront about it from the beginning and to make sure you understood that it was part of the job before you were hired. It’s more usual for them to sort of mention it in passing and then for it to be a much larger part of the job than you were told.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      Also, they should be paying mileage for you to drive to the other location. And your driving time, if you’re hourly, should be on the clock.

    9. WellRed*

      I think this is normal but not cool. I also feel sorry for the receptionist who they won’t promote because they can use this arrangement instead. Are you sure you otherwise like this company?

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        We don’t know that the company has not fairly compensated the receptionist for the work beyond that position they are doing. A promotion might not make sense if they only need a person to do 10 hrs of non-receptionist work. Plus it is usually a good idea to have someone else trained as a back up for a front facing position like receptionist.

        1. Anon16*

          She is also doing work during her lunch breaks (which are covered by other people). For instance, she manages the maintenance team and has to be in the other building to oversee maintenance and has to make last minute trips to the store to buy supplies or take care of other emergencies in other office buildings, (these are the instances in which I get short notice about the coverage).

          Part of it is that she works in HR and needs to be away from the reception desk because she’s handling confidential information. I think what she does is *more* ridiculous than what I’m doing, but that’s another story.

          1. CmdrShepard4ever*

            Assuming she is non-exempt, she should be hourly and paid if she works through lunch. Under federal law you are not required to be given a lunch break. Some states do require an unpaid lunch break after a certain amount of hours but it really depends.

            It is perfectly normal for you to be unsatisfied with the position the way it is now and to look for another job. The driving to a different job location is not so normal but covering other other employees is. As someone else said you should be paid for the time spent traveling back and forth between your original location and second location.

            1. Anon16*

              We’re both salaried. That being said, maybe it is time to start looking for another job. I haven’t really found the right place for me since I’ve started working after college so I’d hoped I could really settle down a little more here, but I just frankly want to be spending 10 hours/week doing this.

              They were a little flustered that I pushed back against the 10 hours/week of receptionist work, so I can only imagine how they would respond to my asking to be compensated for the commute. They are trying to save money, so I think this would really irritate them.

              1. CmdrShepard4ever*

                If you are salaried and correctly identified as exempt then the being paid for travel time would not really come into play.

                If you are an EA and salaried/exempt you might be miss-classified. You can be salaried and non-exempt meaning your pay won’t be reduced for working under 40 hours, but it still means you need to be paid for overtime (usually on a weekly basis over 40 hrs, but in California it is on a daily basis over 8 hrs). EA’s can be properly classified as salary/exempt but are usually supporting high level exec’s and exercise a great deal of independence and their own decision making.

              2. Rusty Shackelford*

                What do you mean by “compensated for the commute?” Do you mean them paying for mileage? Because they absolutely need to be doing that. Or do you mean they don’t consider the commute time part of your working hours? They absolutely need to be doing that too, unless it’s something like them wanting you at either your regular location or the alternate location at 8 am, and it takes you 15 minutes longer to get to the alternate location. Commuting time before or after your scheduled workday is your responsibility. Commuting time during your workday is theirs, and they need to pay you for it. Not overtime, unless you’re non-exempt, but they can’t say “you need to work 30 minutes longer to make up for the time you were on the road.”

          2. WellRed*

            A receptionist doing HR work who also oversees maintenance? Cheap ass company with no growth potential. And it is NOT normal to habe to drive to cover a receptionist. Get out before they warp your expectations.

    10. StrongAreThyWalls*

      It’s not too uncommon to have to cover for somebody who doesn’t work at your location, though it’s definitely a pain when it’s last minute.

      Questions to pose to your supervisor:
      1. Can some of the receptionist’s other work that takes her away from the desk be done by you at your location?
      2. Can travel to the other location be part of work hours instead of the lunch hour? If I had to run errands during lunch for work, then my supervisor let me tack on an extra 30 minutes to my lunch hour.

    11. MoopySwarpet*

      I would think you could be counting the transit time as time worked vs cutting into your breaks (unless you start or end there for the day). Then if doing the reception portion and still maintaining your breaks cuts into your ability to do your work, they might look a little closer at it.

      It seems pretty abnormal to me that they would want the covering person to come from a building 15 minutes away vs one in the same building, but the coverage itself isn’t too weird.

    12. Galahad*

      It’s really common, in my experience, to share EA’s with other people or departments, as the workload and company costs demand. What that looks like can change every 6 months, too. You do need to ensure that you get your full lunch break, however. That should be part of your planned schedule. Coffee breaks are not required where I have worked, so someone switching roles mid day would not be able to demand them, especially if your main role allows you to use the w.c. during the shift or to drink coffee at your desk.

      If you really want to push back, start mentioning that you take transit some days and then start doing that, so your work has to figure out how to get you from A to B. I found that when I took transit, it made pushing back on overtime or mid-day building changes much, much easier. I assume use of your vehicle for mid-day changes was not discussed during your original interview..you are surprised to be relocated to another area? Do you get mileage now?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Facility change time should be paid not your lunch break.
        Since 15 min includes to&from your car, how long of a WALK is it?

    14. JSPA*

      Unusual, but very above – board. Not a bad sign that, this way, two people have fairly interesting jobs that keep them learning new skills.

  14. SadMidwesterner*

    I’m at my first job post-college. I know that much of what my manager does isn’t ok, but she’s leaving in a few months. Bigger questions:

    1. How much down time is too much? I often feel like if I apply myself and work constantly, I can get the whole weeks worth of stuff done on Monday morning. We are a very small admin team, so although I constantly ask for more there’s not a lot.

    2. Office gossip- how much shit-talking of other people (especially exec level) is normal?

    3. Should I just… feel sad all the time? This is a lot less specific, but I often get dizzy and queasy at work and it clears up when I leave. I’m starting to realize it’s an emotional response. I feel like I’m doing nothing, and no one notices me, and I’m very lonely. I often fantasize about getting hit by a car so I don’t have to go to work. I’m on anti-depressants and being closely monitored, but nothing seems to help when I’m actually in the office.

    1. Drax*

      I can’t speak to all of it, but number 3 is so so so not normal. Like your office is full of bees not normal. That is your body telling you to run. So listen to it. Start looking for another job and RUN

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Yes, this.

        I’ve had several jobs where I had either a feeling of dread or got a massive, massive migraine early on in the job, and said, “Aw it’s just newbie jitters, I’m sure it’s fine!” Only to realize after a month or so that it was not newbie jitters, it was me picking up on something not being right with the job.

        1. valentine*

          1. You should not be working constantly. The body needs rest and will fight you for it and win.
          2. Set your level to zero. Resist and do not engage. Cultivate a reputation for being anti-gossip/badmouthing.
          3. You are isolated. This is dangerous.

          It sounds like you need to escape to a job where you’re engaged and can engage with others (sans negativity).

        2. Drax*

          Right! Every single time I’ve ignored weird signs, it turns out I was right and something turned up that was not right. Like this one, I started getting stress headaches in my first few months. Almost done my contract and it’s a nightmare.

          Especially when it’s so bad you want to get HIT BY A CAR SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO. That’s so not okay and a massive flashing red flag. It’s a flag with giant blinking arrows and cheerleaders to get your attention.
          If you go home and cry regularly – new job.
          If you start exhibiting heavy stress symptoms constantly without reprieve -new job. Stress is a typical part of a job, but it should come in waves not be constant. If it’s constant you need to re-evaluate what’s what with the job and make some changes. A person can’t exist in a state of constant stress without any type of unwinding. That’s how burn out or major health problems happen.

    2. facepalm*

      I have a ton of downtime at my job, but I personally really enjoy it. I read books online, run my side business, etc. It’s why I stay at my job, actually. But some people hate downtime and feel bored if they don’t have work to accomplish. Can you work on some skills? Do free online trainings? Learn to code? Gain more marketable skills that could help you get another, less downtime-heavy job?

    3. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      1. Downtime is more normal than people admit, but 4/5 days? Not normal. Either you simply dont have enough work, they haven’t given you everything you need to do, or thirdly is it possible you aren’t doing everything the way / do the detail they want? You might just be very speedy, but that’s worth checking… But given my response to 2 and 3 don’t do this, just leave!
      2. Not normal and definitely not healthy
      3. Not normal but common. I’ve had this in a role and the only thing that cured it was leaving

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        I pretty much agree with you here.

        I will say a little gossipy trash talk can be normal, but it should be in the realm of , “I hear she spends $1500 on handbags! Can you imagine!?” if it’s more in the realm of, “Oh yeah everyone knows the CFO is an embezzling coke head…” that is not so normal. And not so great.

        Totally onboard with you for number three. We had a super high pressure rush to get a deadline out a couple months ago with several of us working very long, hard hours and my coworker did actually say to me, “Have you ever hoped that you would just get hit by a car? You know, not like bad, but just kinda clipped a bit so you would HAVE to take a couple weeks off?” But that was a short term, high pressure situation. If that is your normal, please talk to someone. Please do not sit alone with that. You deserve better, and whether it’s the job or something with your meds or whatever ultimately causing it, you don’t have to live with that. I really send you a lot of love and caring because that is not a fun place to be. If finding a new job is the answer for you I hope you find a new, better one very soon.

    4. Peridot*

      First things first, you should not feel sad all the time or be having intrusive thoughts. Work can be boring, but it shouldn’t make you feel queasy and miserable. Have you talked to your psych about adjusting your medication?

    5. LawBee*

      1. You shouldn’t be clearing a week’s worth of work in one morning. This is not normal.
      2. This varies, but you should stay out of it. Which I’m sure you are!
      3. Oh, no. Not normal at all. Please start looking for another job, and honestly – I’d be looking while you are AT this one. They’re not giving you anything else to do, go for it.

      This isn’t a good place. I’d be getting out asap.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        #3 is definitely not normal. It’s ok at times to feel frustrated, angry, or even sad at work. This should not be your everyday emotional state, though. Your mental health comes first–if you are happy outside of work and sad inside, please look for a new opportunity. Also, don’t feel guilty about it. It’s not you. Not every job is a good fit.

    6. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

      Oh this is awful!

      At first I was going to say that down time in an entry level job is pretty normal, but you’re not supposed to feel totally despondent when you’re there!!

      I hope you’re applying for other jobs? If not, start. Even boring jobs that don’t have a ton to keep you busy aren’t supposed to make the grill of a bus look appealing!

    7. No Tribble At All*

      No, it’s not normal to feel sad all the time! From all three of your questions, you sound deeply unhappy at your work. It sounds like you finish everything early and sit around listening to other people trash each other. I’m glad you said you’re on anti-depressants, but it sounds like they’re not enough.

      It’s normal to be occasionally bored and annoyed at work, but it’s not normal to feel dizzy and want to get hit by a car. You should not have to feel this way. <3 These are symptoms of being Pretty Freakin Depressed, and I’ve been there, and you can feel better. I don’t know if you can, but if you can find any other job nearby, I think it would really help.

    8. Wednesday's Child*

      2. A lot of complaining/badmouthing is unfortunately normal, but not professional or appropriate. It’s very easy to get sucked in and think “I’m not doing it much” when in fact you are doing it way more than you should (even if it’s way less than everybody else!”

      3. No, you shouldn’t. I liked the work I did at old job, but the culture was so insidiously toxic and I just didn’t know any better and chalked it up to a challenging profession. I used to wish I’d trip going down the stairs and break my leg so that I could have time off for medical leave. I changed companies and the job is still challenging, but I’m 10,000x happier and off anti-depressants.

      You may want to see what happens after your manager leaves, but the overall bad culture may not change if the employees are stuck in their behaviors. I think that even if your new manager is completely opposite, they’ll shit-talk her for some reason or another. IMO, you should start applying elsewhere. You may also want to talk to your doctor about how you feel at work to see if something can be tweaked with your medication or new coping strategies developed. I’m rooting for you!!

    9. Greyhound*

      Caveat that I’m pretty new to the workforce too so take that into consideration with my response but here goes…

      1. One of the first people who commented talked about this so read that comment thread.

      2. In my (somewhat limited) experience this varies workplace to workplace, but I largely try and stay out of gossip altogether if I can. I don’t think it’s a productive use of my time and I find it can be a bit alienating and make it harder to form comfortable relationships with all of my coworkers.

      3. This doesn’t sound normal. You didn’t say nearly enough about your work place for me to have any sense if it’s a workplace problem or more of a personal mental health problem, though. It sounds like you are seeking help from a professional though, which I think is good. It’s terrible to feel the way you’re describing and I’m sorry you’re feeling that way. I hope things look up a bit for you soon.

    10. yup*

      #3 – I’m so sorry. I was also there several years ago. Sometimes it spilled into my personal life, but leaving made a huge difference. The good news is that the root cause is the job and not your personal life (the opposite would be much harder to course correct). Things that helped me while I was looking for a new gig – talking to a counselor – great opportunity to use your EAP services if you have them. Writing out a letter of resignation with a future date. Finding ONE person who I bonded with at work – if your office is big enough, there is likely someone you have something in common with who also isn’t happy. Having that person to vent to helped me realize that I’m not the crazy one.

    11. User 483*

      For # 3 -It’s unfortunately fairly common to be depressed in jobs, but that doesn’t mean you should just accept it and give up.

      Weather may be playing some part with shorter daylight hours (and probably most of those spent indoors) but that it clears up as soon as you leave indicates that work is the largest cause.

      I would start to look at other opportunities. Figure out what it is about your job that makes you so sad and what parts (if any) you like, to help decide what to seek out or avoid in your next job. This could also be a good time to explore new hobbies or interests and decide if you want to maybe pursue a completely different career path.

    12. Pingüina*

      I worked for 18 months in a toxic job with tons of gossip and shit-talking. It was cathartic but very bad for me for two reasons. 1) It warped my sense of what the real issues in the office were and what I should put my limited power and time into addressing. 2) I often found myself going with the flow and agreeing to be grumpy about things I wasn’t actually bothered by. I loved my immediate coworkers, but I became a different person, one I don’t recognize any more. Leaving and joining an overall positive workplace where I get to set tone was just amazing.

    13. Detective Amy Santiago*

      How long have you been there? That much downtime is unusual and it is completely understandable that it leads to #3 (which is definitely not normal, for the record).

      When I started in my current position, I had a lot of downtime and it was incredibly frustrating. I was constantly asking for more to do and kept getting told that I needed to “slow down” and that they “didn’t want to overwhelm me”. It finally started improving after about 5-6 months when they realized that oh hey, I am capable of getting things done efficiently, quickly, and correctly. But I still have less of a workload than I’d like.

    14. Akcipitrokulo*

      1) yeah – see if there’s any on-line courses or development you’d be allowed to do in downtime?

      2) Don’t. Even if it’s common, don’t. Especially if you’re new.

      3) That’s not normal, and I’m glad you’re being supported with it. It might be that feeling more occupied could help. Some people find being able to take a walk outside (if you can) helps. But whatever works, be gentle and kind to yourself.

    15. Mel*

      I don’t know the answer to #1, but for #2, I think if there’s enough shit-talking going on that you bothered to ask about it, that’s probably not normal, and for #3, run! Everything you described there is definitely not normal. It doesn’t matter at all if everyone else at your office seems fine with it, it’s really not working for you and it would make me miserable too. Just about any other job will give you enough to do that you actually feel useful.

    16. Nelalvai*

      This is so much like what I’m dealing with. Even your handle, I’m a sad Midwesterner too. I can’t confirm whether it’s normal but I can double our sample size on all 3 counts. Work is slow, gossip is weird, I’m depressed.
      My far-away family tells me the gossiping is normal but shouldn’t be. And that the depression is cause I’m in a new town with a new job with no friends and it’ll get better as I settle in and meet people.

      I don’t know. Patience is important. But I’d really like a break from feeling like this.

    17. Jess*

      Check out L. S. Cooper’s thread towards the top of this post — there are a bunch of comments in it about *how* to spend the downtime that may be useful.

      As for 3 — feeling sad all the time is not normal, but it’s also not entirely surprising or uncommon. The transition from college to the work world is BIG. Even in the best healthiest jobs, it’s jarring to realize how much you don’t know and how little power you have and how little your hard-earned education counts for. (My liberal arts ivy league degree felt like a waste for about a decade, until suddenly I had enough *life* skill and experience that the two together were somehow really valuable and could work together.) And the job you’re in sounds particularly demoralizing because of manager/downtime challenge of it. For me, it made a big difference when I started making new friends and finding activities outside work to engage my brain and sense of purpose.

    18. BookLady*

      Number 3 is not normal. Please talk to someone about how you’re feeling and start job searching as soon as you can. Your job is not more important than your mental and emotional health.

    19. SometimesALurker*

      Sending you internet-hugs if you want them.

      My second job out of college, I had a pretty strong, negative emotional response to a crappy job, although not as bad as you’re describing. I ended up taking some sick days and going home “sick” when it was really “I want to cry and not stop,” by my therapist encouraged me not to lean on sick days or it would get even harder to go in. I ended up being let go at the end of six months — as far as I can tell, this partly because I didn’t meeting all of the expectations that had been communicated to me, but largely because they had done a very poor job of communicating expectations to me (I had a review a few weeks before that had gone fairly well.) At first, I was devastated, but the next day, I woke up and realized I never had to go there again, and it felt amazing. And… I realized that that place was not at all healthy for me. I wanted to stay and get better and thought the job would get better, but in retrospect, that job was the closest thing I’ve been in to an abusive relationship. I’m not going into the details why here because they are irrelevant, but hopefully you get the idea.

      It sounds like you’re already getting help, which is great. But, I’d also encourage you to take a serious look at your finances and your support networks, and if you can afford to quit this job without another one lined up, think about it. Maybe there are changes you can make to help the job take less of an emotional toll. If you can get away with it, use IM to talk to friends during the day, since you have so much down time. Work on job applications or side projects while you’re there. But, if you can’t do those things, or they don’t help, and you can afford to leave, it really is okay to leave your first job in under a year. In most fields, the disadvantage that puts you at in looking for your next job will not be as great as the damage done to you by a job that makes you want to be hit by a car.

      Hang in there!

    20. Ashie*

      As someone who suffers from depression but still likes her job, I’ll echo everyone else who says #3 is NOT normal. Please see your doctor and start getting out of there.

      As for #2, if there’s a lot of shit-talking going on it may be contributing to your general mood. It’s really hard to be happy when surrounded by complainers. It’s pretty common unfortunately but that doesn’t mean you have to listen or participate. Just don’t – everyone will be better off for it.

      1. EH*

        Same here. I have had depression for a long time, and have worked at a variety of companies. Some have been great, some have been terrible. The jobs that were good were good for me because I knew what I was supposed to be doing and did it, and felt at least a little supported and successful, even when my depression was acting up or I was changing meds. The jobs where my dermotillomania got reeeal bad when I was in meetings or where I spent time hiding in the bathroom to cry because being there made me so distressed? Those were bad, toxic jobs, and I waited too long to leave both of them.

        Learn from my mistakes, SadMidwesterner. Keep working on your depression, but take steps to find a new job. Even little steps. You deserve a job that doesn’t make you miserable. We all do. <3

    21. Asenath*

      1. That seems excessive. Some down time is normal, but that is a LOT.

      2. Stay out of office gossip. It’s tempting, I know, when you want to vent about someone or when you feel part of the group by participating, but it can too easily come back to bite you. And it can create a very negative mood in the office.

      3. No, that is not normal, and I have no medical training, but I do wonder if the having too much time on your hands and negative gossip to mull over aren’t making matters worse for your state of mind.

    22. De-Archivist*

      #3 Were you a high performer in college?

      If you were used to staying constantly busy and producing a high volume of high-quality work, it can feel like a serious let down to just produce a normal amount of quality work. Especially, if you have anxiety about feeling like you’re going to get caught “slacking off” when you’ve completed your work, I’d say this *could* be a normal response. Maybe find ways to occupy your time that feel productive. I mentioned in another comment, that I’ve taught myself Excel and have moved onto Adobe (both things that really help in my role).

      I don’t mean to pooh-pooh your concerns, though. If your job is making your miserable or if you think you might need to talk to someone because there’s something deeper there, please don’t just stay sad.

    23. LKW*

      #2 is dependent on the type of people you work with. I would say if your office culture is one to tear down other people… not what I would call mature, professional, healthy or any other positive word. In short, toxic people breed toxic culture.

      #3 It’s your brain telling you this is not the right job. It’s time to look for something better. I’ve had to tell two different people “Crying because of your job is a sign you are not in the right job”. It happens to the best of us.

    24. Samwise*

      2. Sadly, this happens too often, but it’s not normal in a well-functioning office.
      3. Oh honey, please call your therapist or a suicide hotline when you fantasize about getting hit by a car. This is really concerning. Please update in the weekly free for all (weekends) to let us know how you are doing.

      1-800-273-8255, available 24 hours a day, every day of the year.

    25. Blue*

      I have a long history with depression, but I know for a fact that my last job really exacerbated things. It sapped so much mental and emotional energy that I didn’t have enough left to effectively deal with my mental health, and it really suffered as a result. Depression being what it is, I obviously didn’t get magically better when I left for a new organization, but a new environment has definitely made things more manageable. I think it would definitely be smart to start looking because, no, that’s not normal or healthy. If nothing else, looking for other options might make you feel less stuck. In the meantime, definitely draw on your support network, therapist, etc. Take care of yourself, and hang in there. <3

    26. Eeyore's missing tail*

      For reference, I’m admin support that works in an office that deals with emergencies/issues/problems/all the fun stuff.
      1) Depending on the time of year, I can complete everything that I know needs to get done that week in a morning as well. I’m about 3.5 years into this job and it has been tough getting used to this. There are a few things I’ve found that have helped me. The biggest one is that I have to accept that part of my job needs down time so I can jump on an issue as soon as it pops up and handle it before it explodes. I finally stopped asking and started working on my own things I could find, like all of proposals dating from the 1960s. I work in academia, so this may not be helpful for you, but I decided it was also time to go back an earn my MPA on my job’s dime. If I’m slow, I pull out my homework and work on that. I’ve also learned how to pace myself. That really helps when it’s slow.
      2) It depends on your level of tolerance. We have a few admins that I just let talk at me and I move on with my day. Some people will talk massive amounts of shit and you learn to tune them out, and there are some that you’ll learn only complain when something is really, really wrong.
      3) Forgive me if I’m blunt, but this is very not normal. I was in a similar situation here (I honestly believed I could die in my office and no one would notice until it started it stink). You say you’re on meds, but are you talking to someone as well? That was the biggest thing that helped me. I had to reframe my job. This job is not my life and I keep doing it because it’s allowing me to do what I want. I have excellent benefits and a child-friendly office, so there are perks that make it more bearable. Please, if you aren’t already doing it, find a counselor, therapist, or someone to speak with. You deserve a better life than what those thoughts are telling you.

    27. jonquil*

      #1 In some entry-level jobs, I think it’s normal to have not much work to do, because the company figures that it’s worth the cost of your relatively low salary to have you around to do work as it comes up, rather than have to scramble for a temp/burden more senior employees.

      #2 Kinda normal, very bad. Rise above!

      #3 My spouse recently shared that they were waiting to get fired from their job so that they didn’t have to do the work anymore (there is no indication they are actually at risk of being fired). I think it’s not uncommon, when you are depressed (situationally or clinically) to feel powerless in your situation and to look for external events to change your situation for you. But you are not powerless! You are an intelligent, self-aware person who can absolutely leverage your work at this job (it’s not the size of the workload, it’s how you accomplished the work that matters in an interview!) to find one that is less soul-crushing. Those jobs exist, and now that you know about one work environment you don’t like you are better equipped to weed out the opportunities that won’t work for you.

    28. Not So Little My*

      I spent my 20s and early part of my 30s working secretarial/office admin jobs, which I was very good at, and there were certainly plenty of jobs where I had anywhere between 25%-90% downtime. Some downtime is good but that much can be mind-numbing. So I would say #1 is “normal” but not optimal, and that alone would indicate that it might be worth your while to find a different job.
      #2 is something that happens but is a sign of a toxic office. Again, “normal” but a sign to leave.
      #3 is definitely not normal. Ramp up your talk therapy if you have it, get a talk therapist if you don’t, push your med provider to consider tweaking your meds (be honest with them about your ideations), and GET THE F OUT OF THERE!!!

    29. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      I’m so sorry – this sounds like a pretty awful situation all around. To speak to each point:
      1. With admin work I’ve found there are two very distinct types of expectations regarding down time. Some places value an admin being ready to snap to attention at any moment. Therefore down time (even a large amount of down time) is expected. Admins are pretty much expected to be very protective of their time so that they are ready at a seconds notice for their professional. Other places want an admin that has a full workload and the admin is expected to prioritize their work responsibilities. So I wouldn’t say the down time is exactly abnormal (though it does sound on the high side), but it does sound like perhaps you’d better in a different environment.
      2. I’ve come across a really unhealthy dynamic a couple of times (in not great work environments) – where the admin or support staff does not feel valued, so they turn to shit-talking or complaining about the execs they support to regain some sense of worth. It’s not a healthy way to deal with the frustration, but I get it. It sounds like maybe that’s happening in your place. I wouldn’t say it’s normal, but it’s not uncommon and definitely not great.
      3. Not normal at all! And I’m so sorry you are experiencing this. If it helps – I was there too when I was in a role that I was very unhappy in (mainly because I was experiencing points #1 and #2). If at all possible, look for new role – it sounds like this is a poor fit. The stuff you’re describing is not uncommon, but still there are plenty of jobs where you will not experience that stuff. Another potential suggestion – if possible (I understand that this can be tough to do for various reasons) consider taking a leave absence or applying for FMLA – if you’re under the care of a medical professional who knows how depressed you are, I’m sure they will provide the medical documentation needed. My plan was to arrange for FMLA leave and then to use that time to job hunt like crazy. I was incredibly lucky to find a new job before I started that process, but I was fully prepared to do it.

    30. theletter*

      1 and 2 could very much be contributing to #3, and a lot of this could be coming from the manager who is leaving in a few months. Sometimes people who know they’re leaving just check out. She might not be fighting for projects for her team anymore. She might have given up on setting and enforcing regular processes for her team anymore. This is probably contributing to your lack of work. It is a huge red flag.

      A little office gossip is normal, shit talking at the executive level is not, this is also a red flag.

      Feeling as despondent as you describe is NOT normal, but you shouldn’t feel alone: anecdotally I’ve heard stories of ‘recent grad blues’. Corporate America can be a bit of a culture shock. People initially feel weird about sitting at a desk for eight hours . . . as we should! See if you can work a little time in your downtime to exercise, even if it’s just walking around the block. Take note of other companies in your neighborhood. See if they’re hiring.

      Almost every time I’ve moved jobs, I’ve had a brief period of emotional anguish. It’s weird to not feel totally “useful”, to miss old friends and habits that gave comfort daily. You are not alone.

      One thing you can do with your downtime to is do some research into Project Management. It’s a huge industry full of useful reading material and is applicable to pretty much all fields. The gentle logic of it makes me feel like I have more control over my life.

    31. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Everyone here has given you some great tips about coping with depression, so I second what they’ve said. Regarding office shit-talking, though, I’ve come to a point after 23 years in the work force where I will make A Thing out of it.

      For me, shit-talking at work is tantamount to an unsafe work environment, like when there’s asbestos or danging live wires. Blowing off steam once in a while is normal, and everyone has to do that in order to re-focus. But constant, round-the-clock “I hate this place they’re so stupid” f*cks with your head, and people who indulge in it, I’ve found, are usually giant scared babies. Consequently, I’ve gotten somewhat obnoxious about it. If I hear someone saying how much they hate working under Ms. Whomever for the 100th time, I look them in the eye and ask, “Then why don’t you leave?” When I hear someone loudly bitching about how they can’t bring their dog to work, what’s wrong with the place, lots of other workplaces allow dogs, I ask, “Then why don’t you go work there?”

      Understand: 99% of the time I am thoughtful, kind, and professional. I also don’t yell when I say these things, but state them as perfectly reasonable choices, because they are.

      Whether or not you may find this empowering, I can’t say, but it is an option. You might have to field garbage reactions like the silent treatment, because giant babies; and that isn’t any fun when you’re already feeling isolated and depressed. But it can feel really good to call out the giant babies with a short, direct question and then ignore any baby reactions like the strong professional you are.

    32. Emilitron*

      #3 – I don’t want to say this “isn’t normal”, because yes, this is 100% within the normal way that humans operate. But no, this is not normally an operating state for a job you can/should be staying in. In fact, if I find myself fantasizing during me morning commute about possible disaster scenarios that would result in my not going to work today, this is a prime indicator that something has to change. I look at what’s going on that’s making me dread it, and sometimes it’s a particular project deadline or team member, or something I can wait out – but in reality this is the one single thing that is my prime indicator it’s time to get a new job. But I wanted to reassure you that your reaction is not abnormal at all!

    33. Deb Morgan*

      #3 – Not normal. I could have written this about my first post-college job because I felt exactly the same (including hoping to be hit by a car to have an excuse to not go to work). Not normal, not normal, not normal. The thing that helped me was quitting. I moved back in with my parents, took some time to gather myself, then found a job that was such a breath of fresh air, especially in comparison to my previous job. You can and will find a job that doesn’t make you sad. I’m hoping it will happen for you like it happened for me. Good luck, and please update us later if you can.

    34. Mel*

      I had a similar job. Nasty coworkers. Not so much complaining about the bosses, but nit picking at each other all the time. It was awful. Sunday nights I would just cry. On my way home I often thought of driving my car into a tree.

      Then they cut my hours way back. I should have been devastated – I had no savings at all – but I went home singing. And I realized how much of my depression was actually just working with those awful people all day. Not all of it. But a lot.

      My next job wasn’t a cake-walk, but my coworkers were so kind and it helped me get in a better frame of mind around work.

    35. Oranges*

      Speaking to #3 since I’ve been there done that. “If I got in a horrific car accident I wouldn’t have to go to work. How do I make it look accidental and not kill me?” was something I thought daily going to work. Funnily enough the job was so bad that I didn’t have enough energy left over to actually job search. So… practical advice times.

      Can you work from home AT ALL? Since you can get your work done so quickly that leaves you time to job hunt and clean your house/go out into the world/really anything that helps your depression.

      Can you find someone who’s not toxic and try to be their friend at work?

      Can you make a list of what you need to do that day and check things off? Something along the lines of: 1) Do an hour of work, 2) Look at 1-3 job boards or an hour of job searching 3) learn a foreign language/how to knit/something you’ve wanted to learn about. 4) Do something that helps your depression (a walk, a phone call, light therapy, meditation, whatevers).
      Notice everything past #1 is something that YOU want to do and everything past number #2 is something pleasingly productive for you. They’re paying you to do work, you’ve done the work, now you can do work for yourself.

      Can you make an emergency plan? If you literally couldn’t go into work tomorrow because there was a force field around it that only worked on you. What would you do? Do you have a safety net? If not, get one in place. If you have non-judgmental people who care about you: TELL THEM. It’s scary. It feels like you’re failing at being an adult. Trust me, they don’t want you to hurt this much just so you can perform “Adult” for the rest of society.

      True Story: I’m 36, I live with my parents because I can’t perform “Adult” for the rest of society because brain issues. Yes people judge me but you know what? That sounds like a them problem. If they want me to be in pain all the time just to hit an expected “Not Live at Parents Milestone” then… they kinda suck?

      I would be in the same emotional state if I were in your shoes. So please. Gather your team. You can say: “Hey this job is slowly making my depression worse and I’m afraid of what will happen if I stay in it another “x” months/much longer/whatever. I need help job hunting/a place to stay/free therapy is that something you can help with?”

    36. Can't Think of a Name*

      1. Normal (see upthread)
      2. It’s normal, but don’t make it your normal. Don’t engage in it or listen to it, lest people assume you agree with the shit-talkers by association
      3. VERY NOT NORMAL. In my old job, I also would have stress reactions before, and eventually during, work (nausea, vomiting, panic attacks) and would come home every day crying. I’d have to psych myself up to get out of bed and all the way to work. It was one of my first jobs and I do have depression/anxiety, so I thought it was normal, but IT IS NOT. It is your body telling you something is seriously wrong – listen to it!! I promise you that even when you have mental health issues, this is not normal, especially if your symptoms are relieved when you’re not at work. I was amazed by how much better my life got after I quit my old job.

    37. CynicallySweet*

      For 1 i think it depends on the work. My office has admins that are constantly running around and admins that sit on Facebook all day bc someone needs to man the phones that don’t ring.

      #2 no idea

      #3 leave. I know this feeling. I had this feeling. This is the feeling that had me crying in my bosses office at a performance review. The situation wasn’t entirely the same, but the physical manifestations of what ur feeling can get worse (I was regularly throwing up b4 leaving for work). This is not normal. U say u have a ton of free time, I’d suggest using it to polish up the resume

    38. Not So NewReader*

      I was with ya, until I hit #3, OP. I have only had that happen a couple of times and I know first hand it means one thing, “LEAVE. NOW”.

      Number three stands alone as a deal breaker, OP. That is enough reason right there.

      I wish someone had helped me with this when I first encountered it. My parents did not talk about work except to say negative stuff. So I assumed that everyone struggled at work. WRONG. Not like this, OP. People do have difficulties at work, but it should not be survival level difficulties. You are limping through from one minute to the next, the struggle is that bad.

      Here is something that I think is key. My wise friend pointed out that people NEED to contribute. I am not talking want, I am saying need. Need, as in on a par with we need water and food. It’s a basic need that most people have, they NEED to make a contribution, preferably a MEANINGFUL contribution, they don’t want to do make-believe work and they certainly don’t want to sit around and do nothing. If people can’t make a meaningful contribution something inside of them dies.

      What you are going through now is called “soul-sucking” and this is because it’s pulling the life right out of you. Most people would struggle with having not much to do most of the week. If we stay at such work too long, our interest in living life tapers off and melts away.

      On the plus side you have some things going in your favor:
      1) As if it’s happening on an intuitive or subconscious level, you are thinking, “Something is not right here.”
      Good for you, OP, for paying attention to that nagging voice.
      2) You posted here. OP, brilliant move! Really smart. This is the best place to talk about such work problems.
      3) You are bored, you are feeling devalued and disconnected. That means that you know this is not how you want to work/live. You haven’t lost YOU, OP, you are having a normal reaction to a really bad work place.

      Among the other suggestions here, I’d like to suggest that you post to the Friday open thread and tell us how your job search is going. It’s like a date with, oh, a million other people. But everyone is cheering for you. You can do this, you can find something better. You deserve it. We all do.

      1. marshu*

        So much this. This is something I sadly learned by experience – I was in a job that made me depressed, and I stayed for so many reasons… I liked my coworkers, they had free snacks, I thought the company mission was important, I didn’t think I could find a better paying job, I thought things would get better when we got a new manager… okay, maybe when the new manager adjusts… okay, maybe when the department is reorganized… I stayed because all my coworkers were almost as miserable, and I thought that if they weren’t leaving, why should I?

        I got fired. Partially because the environment was toxic, and partially because my depression and bad work habits led to very poor work product.

        The next job I had was almost as toxic, and payed less, but I left on purpose and on my own timeline which is one of the most empowering things I’ve done in my life. Recognizing when something is not the right place for you to be, and then taking action, is a tremendous step. Do what Not So NewReader suggests, it is extremely good advice.

        1. Rosaline Montague*

          I’m pretty amazed by the number of people who have had the same car accident fantasy I had at OldJob. For me, the job dissatisfaction was compounded by Other Factors in my life, like having moved across the country far away from my friends and family…having a spouse who was knee deep in grad school and rarely home…having a major health issue that affected my quality of life…being in a toxic office where I had no clear working goals or parameters…so I would echo the advice to see a therapist, find some ways to use all that down time, and keep yourself out of the muck at work if at all possible. Hugs to you!

      2. Quandong*

        Not So NewReader thank you so much for writing this. I hope many people benefit from reading it.

    39. Argh!*

      2 & 3 are normal in the context of No. 1:

      Some people love having little to do. Some people have a lot to offer and a low tolerance for boredom. Those who love having little to do become gossips. Those who hate it become depressed.

      If you can spend the down time learning something new or working on a project that you can put on a resume, that may relieve you from #1 and #3 a bit, and you’ll be too busy for the gossips to talk to.

      The best thing I’d want to hear in response to “Why are you leaving the job” is that it isn’t rewarding for you and you don’t have enough to do!

  15. thedovetail*

    I work in a field that requires employees to perform complex technical production work on our computers 8 hours a day straight. The work is process-based, not project-based — when a task comes in, we have to immediately handle it. The workflow is pretty continuous. We can take breaks as needed, but most of us only take breaks for 10 minutes at the most. We are also supposed to let our team know if we are stepping away from our desks, even if for just a minute. We can usually grab lunch, for the most part, and then eat it at our desks. Is this normal?

    1. Four lights*

      Depending on how you’re classified, you should probably be getting a set amount of time for lunches and breaks away from your desk. Other than that it’s normal. I did data entry once and never left my desk except for breaks.

    2. Juniantara*

      This isn’t abnormal for a call center environment, where your availability to process the work is part of the job. However, places that demand that sort of availability are generally hourly non-exempt positions and generally schedule you a lunch away from your desk.

    3. CAA*

      Sure, this is normal in a lot of jobs. What you describe is pretty typical in call centers, some insurance jobs, some finance jobs, some IT jobs, etc.

      1. Holly*

        What in UK law would make this not legal? It sounds like OP is able to take breaks including lunch breaks.

        1. valentine*

          It sounds like breaks are possible, but the culture is anti-break. I would hate for people to know I was on the can for a solid half-hour, but if they’re gross enough to monitor me so closely, they earned every bit of it. Take your breaks, thedovetail.

          (Also, if you have to notify someone in person or via phone, see if they’ll adopt IM and you can just set your status.)

        2. Weegie*

          By law, the minimum break time is 20 minutes (taken all at once, not broken up into 2 X 10-min breaks) if you work more than 6 hours.

    5. Manana*

      Very normal for many jobs, particularly centralized service teams, call centers, production lines, etc. That you can take breaks as needed (as opposed to allowing only the legal minimums) is a decent thing to do for this type of work as long as getting up to step away and refresh for a couple minutes is encouraged and supported by leadership.

  16. Redux*

    My employer has a policy against raises. There is no grade/step system, so salaries are based on initial negotiation and are, as far as I can tell, not on parity with one another. There have been no raises in literally 10 years (since the market crash). There is no COLA increase. Instead, annually we get a $1,000 bonus across the board– not based on performance, longevity, or salary. I’ve been here two years now and am only just realizing this. Should I run?

        1. Tigger*

          I have no idea, this is my first salaried job. I thought COLA was normal cause my dad always got one but that was back east in the legal world so that has its own sets of rules

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          It’s normal, particularly if the individual business and broader field are both doing well–if you aren’t offering a yearly COLA then your people will leave for somewhere that will pay them more.

          A year or two with no raise would be normal in a downturn–the company is making less money than before and trying to cut expenses, and if this is going to also be true of most of their local competition–a sector-wide downturn–there’s not much risk to them. Ten straight years is weird.

          1. Psyche*

            Yeah. Some companies do not do yearly COLA, but 10 years without COLA or raises is not normal.

          2. buttrue???*

            There is a difference between a COLA and a cost of doing raise. A COLA is based on inflation and has a formula to determine it. Other wise your raise is based on you’re doing a good job, the company is healthy, we don’t want people to leave, etc. All business reasons not a predetermined formula applied without regard to business needs or concerns.

          3. Artemesia*

            I worked in an environment for 35 years where raises were rare; even promotions didn’t merit raises in every case. But nearly ever year there was at least a 2% COLA type ‘raise’. A few people might get 3 or 4 but the raise pool wasn’t enough to really reward merit — but still COLA raises minimal through they were, were the norm.

            If you aren’t getting that, then you are literally being paid less each year. Time to casually with no rush begin to explore options for moving elsewhere.

        3. CAA*

          Yes and no on whether “COLA” is normal. I have never worked at a company that separated COLA and merit increases. As a manager, I usually get a budget that says my team’s salary increase for next year is $x. I decide how to divide that $x among my team members, though usually I have to follow some rules such as low performers don’t get anything and nobody can get more than y% unless they get promoted or the CFO approves. In companies that handle things this way, almost everyone gets a raise every year, but the amount an individual gets is not explicitly tied to an inflation rate or change in the cost of living.

          I have also been in environments where suddenly the job market got hot and we would start losing good people because competitors were poaching them at much higher salaries. In that case, a company may do mid-year increases for everyone in a specific job category. That usually has a negative impact on other areas of the budget though, because the money has to come from somewhere, so things like travel or education may be cut, or some other department may get a lower salary budget for next year.

        4. Glitsy Gus*

          It depends. I was at a job that didn’t get even a COLA raise for three years because there just wasn’t any money for them. Once we pulled out of whatever spin we were in and started turning a profit again COLA adjustments came back, but merit increases were very rare.

          Sometimes it just depends on the financials. To just flat out state that no one ever will get a raise, regardless is not normal, though. It’s also not a great way to keep good employees. They may has well hang a sign on the door that says, “Great Employee Fishing Hole” and just let their competitors come take their pick of who they want.

    2. Four lights*

      Some places do do this, especially small companies. But it’s not really good. If you don’t get any kind of cost of living increase then you’re making less money each year. If a small company doesn’t have the money for raises one or two years, that’s normal, but to actively decide never to give anyone raises isn’t good.

    3. Lisa*

      Yes. You are effectively making less and less each year that you work there. I’d recommend cleaning up your resume and taking a look around for a company that recognizes that inflation is a thing.

    4. Long Time Lurker*

      Run.

      Any company with a “policy against raises” isn’t going to attract or retain really good people- and that’s going to have a cascading effect on office culture, quality of the work done, etc. etc.

      1. Tigger*

        It’s funny cause the culture is great and the average time people are here is 18 years. From what my boss told me this is a new policy since we had a change in ownership 3 years ago. We are all in a weird space.

        2. Redux*

          We have really long-timers, too. Our HR Director has been here 25 years! I’m like, lady, you are making SO MUCH LESS than you were 25 years ago, why are you still here?

        3. Glitsy Gus*

          I might see what you could find out about this new policy they’re talking about.

          If it’s that the company needs to hit X% profitability before raises can be considered, that isn’t super abnormal, and it can take a company a few years to hit that mark after a major change. If the % is too high, though, they will end up losing a lot of good people.

          If it really is “no raises, no how,” stick around for a year or so if you like it there, but then look for something else, because as others have said, the longer you stay there the less buying power you have with the same salary and so you’re basically losing money sticking around and probably doing more complex work.

    5. Perse's Mom*

      Not normal! I’ve worked in retail, non-profits, and now an office job and every one of them has done annual reviews with raises. The raises weren’t always very much, and not always guaranteed if you were a subpar employee, but they at least had them!

    6. ursula*

      I’d say this is not unheard of, but also not common/standard and certainly not something you should feel the need to settle for (unless there are other benefits that make up for it or life circumstances that are keeping you there). I’d run.

    7. Erin Withans*

      RUN. Your salary has functionally gone down while you are there. Normal companies give raises, especially now that we’re not in 2008 anymore.

      Also, wow are they rubbing up against a potential wage gap case, here, given what you said. Run for that reason, too.

    8. Bopper*

      I think that sometimes companies do this because they don’t want the vast majority of their workers to stay for very long. You got a first job out of this (or just a job) but they don’t intend for you to make it a career. It keeps their costs down.

    9. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Not normal, but not unheard of. That said, it’s often a sign of poor management. Pay attention to other ways they treat employees to see if this is more likely (a) ignorance of good management techniques, or (b) management that doesn’t really care about their workforce.

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’d leave. Not getting raises as a matter of policy is huge, huge red flag for me, and I’d leave.

    12. TechieRose*

      Well known company here – we do not have any COLA increases but there is a yearly raise/bonus/promotion structure. So I would say it is not normal to have no processes that at least provide the potential to increase base pay.

    13. LKW*

      Yes, you should leave. Basically they are saying “Your value to us decreases with every day you are here.”

    14. NACSACJACK*

      COLA is not normal. Twice in my career, I have had salary adjustments due to market changes, but essentially our annual raises could be considered COLA adjustments. They are not, they are considered salary increases by the company, but they are small, so…

      Significant salary adjustments come from promotions. Any place not really to give raises or promotion should be exited immediately.

    15. NotAnotherManager!*

      No raises at all for a decade is not normal at all. I’ve seen a lot of variation in whether there are specific COLA v. merit v. market catch-up increases, but zero raises at all (for A DECADE?!?!) is WTF territory.

      Yes, I would run very far away as soon as humanly possible.

    16. theletter*

      No raises for 10 years, no COLA increase = this company is waiting for bankruptcy. You’ve done your two years, start sending out resumes.

    17. FloralsForever*

      The only reason I could see to stay is if they offer some sort of other compensation that will give you a significant increase in salary when you eventually leave (if salary is your primary motivation for working at this company). For example, I am a teapot counter. I learned how to count teapots on the job, when most people learn in school, so I don’t have practice in some specific ways of teapot counting. My employer is offering to train me on the ways I don’t know so when I leave I can ask for a 20% salary increase, as my teapot counting skills will be more well rounded.

      Other than that, this is a huge red flag.

      1. AlwaysAnOutlier*

        Run, run, run. And when you run, make sure you know what you’re really worth, or you could perpetuate the problem by taking a salary that’s too low based on your skills, just because you think the number looks huge and wonderful compared to what you make now. You could be worth twice (or more!) what you’re making now. Good luck!

  17. Tigger*

    Oh my goodness this post came at the perfect time! Is it normal to have a corporate policy of no raises? The CEO made it clear to me in my 9-month review yesterday he doesn’t think that people deserve to get a yearly COL raise just because they managed to not get fired for 365 days. The last time anyone in my company got a raise was 4 years ago when the then owner who was suffering from a terminal disease had a warm and fuzzy moment and gave everyone 5% raise (from his personal assets) at Christmas.

    2. CatCat*

      It is a weird policy and also the CEO’s standards are super out of whack! The company only wants a caliber of employee that “managed to not get fired.” What a low bar!

      This sounds like a place where high quality work is not rewarded. I wouldn’t stay.

      1. Tigger*

        It is even more annoying because my core function basically changed 6 months in. I went from juggling handkerchiefs to juggling chainsaws on fire. And the person who I took over for and already outpacing in terms of performance was making almost double I make.

        1. Glitsy Gus*

          Ask for a raise. Don’t wait for him to offer it, because he won’t, but go in and say “one year ago I was doing the handkerchief thing. I did it very well, here is the email proof that my handkerchief act was the best, and now I am also doing the chainsaw thing, which as we both know is significantly more challenging. I do think this work is of a higher standard I I would like $2.50 more an hour for the chainsaws.” He may still say no, but this is how to get around the “managing not to get fired” BS.

          As for Cost of Living or whatever, I have worked in places that were having a bad year or three and just could not afford to give them. Sometimes thems the breaks. To no believe inflation is a thing that affects both employees lives and wages, though is not normal.

          Ask for the raise, but still look for a better chainsaw juggling job at a better circus.

    3. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Not normal. We have a mandatory raise for COL each year (around 2%). It can vary depending on your base pay, where you sit depending on your team. It’s completely mandatory for staff under a certain grade. Over a certain grade it can be altered but you need to really be able to explain why and its not common (UK)

    5. Jimming*

      My employer doesn’t do cost of living increases but they do give performance based raises. I’d say COL is probably industry specific: I got them every 2 years when I worked for nonprofits (but they didn’t give raises since they didn’t have the budget for it.) What’s weird is not offering either option.

    7. Erin Withans*

      So not normal! Your salary is essentially going down as cost of living goes up! You deserve better.

    8. NforKnowledge*

      If you don’t get a COL increasing your salary is decreasing, not just staying the same. That is absolutely unacceptable, and I would hope anyone in that situation finds a way to leave because companies like that don’t deserve employees.

    9. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Like the above question, this is not normal but not uncommon. However, your CEO’s comment is not normal and indicates a significant medical condition: your CEO is a jerk. Unfortunately, that condition is rarely cured.

    11. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Others have covered the COLA issue, so I will call bullshit on your owner’s paying for raises out of “personal” money. I would like to point out that he’s been profiting for years off of the lack of raises and the pain it brings to lower paid employees due to inflation, and just for one year he decided to make a slightly less obscene amount of money. Not really magnanimous, because abusers and narcissists know that they need to act like they care every so often in order to give their victims a justification for staying.

      1. Tigger*

        He died shortly after the raises were given out and his heirs tried to contest the raises because it cut into their inheritances so that was legit.

    12. WellRed*

      Not normal to have an actual policy against it. The CEO sounds like he’s from the “you should be grateful to have a job” school of thought.

      1. American Ninja Worrier*

        I agree, having a specific policy against raises is even less normal than quietly opting not to give out raises.

    13. cmcinnyc*

      Flashback to working for a boss who believed that going above and beyond and turning in excellent work was the *baseline* and no one should expect any recognition or compensation for just doing the baseline. Nothing will ever be good enough. Nothing will ever be worthy. The reference you get will be meh, no matter what marvels you have pulled off in your time there. Scoot, and the sooner the better.

    14. Perpal*

      So, the company likes to pay people who have been there 5 years less than new hires? Unless we ever hit a deflation spree it’s going to be against employee self interest to stay more than a few years.
      My place has a built in 3% increase for everyone, I was told; not sure if it’s normal this is my first time at a long term real job but it makes a lot of sense if you actually want to keep people.

      1. Redux*

        Yes! My HR director actually said out loud that they don’t post salary ranges for new hires because people who have been here for several years are making much less. ACK!

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          This would make my HR director hyperventilate. Her first year in, the first thing we did was square up a few outliers with the rest of the team and everyone with the market, as her predecessor was a loon re salary.

    15. Ashie*

      Good lord, that’s not normal at all. It’s a COST OF LIVING raise to account for inflation, it has nothing to do with rewarding people for not getting fired.

      1. Ashie*

        Ugh, this is really bugging me. It’s not even a cost of living RAISE, it’s just an adjustment to address the changing value of a dollar.

    16. LKW*

      Not normal. Cost of living is just keeping up with the price of the world. Raises can be done on merit. If he’s saying that his scale is “Fired or not Fired?” and fired means you get no salary and not fired means you get to keep your existing salary…

      Or did he mean that you don’t get a COLA increase because the world went around the sun once? That’s not great practice but not abnormal for a smaller business. But no raises ever for anyone? Not. Normal.

    17. Galahad*

      Just ask for a raise.

      Some companies (usually private or smaller ones) have a policy against “everyone gets a COLA adjustment” or “annual reviews for money for all”. Those companies do give raises, when people ask and the raise is justified. Other companies have a lot of senior employees that already make top of the market for the area, (looking at your 18 year employees comment here) so there is an official raise “freeze”… we called it “red circled” meaning that they were already paid too much.. but that still would not apply to you.

    18. Aurora Leigh*

      My company also hasn’t given raises (I think it’s been 8-10 years since the last one from what people say) but that is because they are slowly circling the bankruptcy drain. I think they’ll probably be shutting down in another year or two.

      And yes, lots of people have left. I’m job searching too after two years here.

    19. Data Analyst*

      Whoa, not normal, and if the CEO worded it like that then they seem to have a contemptuous and mistrusting attitude towards employees. Yuck.

    20. Wendy Darling*

      FLEE. RUN LIKE THE WIND.

      This is not super uncommon but it is HORRIBLE and they basically set it up so the only way you can get a raise is to get a different job. And you should *definitely* oblige them by getting a different job.

    21. Chelsea*

      Oh damn. Judging from your CEO’s response, it’s clear that he doesn’t care about employee motivation or positivity. I would want to work for someone else on principle.

  18. Banging My Head On My Keyboard*

    The entire time I’ve been with my company it’s never seemed like the IT department had much formal structure. In the 7 years my job has used a computer, whenever IT has to remote in to my desktop for an issue they have never once given advance warning. I just suddenly lose control of my mouse as they dial in and start clicking around my screen. Last week they saw I was working on something and actually closed out my work so they could start doing whatever thing they remoted in to do.
    I feel pretty sure this is not a professional way to do things, but to what degree are they out of line?
    Is this entirely bonkers?

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Entirely bonkers. How do they know if you have something private or confidential? I work in finance, and IT won’t go into your PC unless you are on the phone with them, plus you have to manually approve it on your screen

    2. Jennifer*

      “I feel pretty sure this is not a professional way to do things, but to what degree are they out of line?” The nth degree.

    3. k8isgreat*

      Totally bonkers! Where I’m at IT needs my permission to access my computer, in that I actually have to hit “accept” on this little box that comes up and they always call first and ask if it’s a good time. I would bring this up with someone.

    4. YetAnotherFed*

      Absolutely totally bonkers IMO and experience. How are you supposed to know that it’s _your_ IT department doing this versus some random hacker? At work, I submit requests to the IT help desk by email or phone or website, IT assigns a ticket number, and IT will always request through IM if they have to remote in.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        For sure — I once had someone try to get into my computer three times in ten minutes, and I kept hitting NO on his requests, after the third time I shut the computer down and called the help desk in a panic thinking I was being hacked. (Turns out one of the help desk guys was on the phone with someone else and kept typing in my computer’s IP address, which was apparently one digit off from his actual customer’s. Some of our help desk people are special. That part, at least, in my experience, is normal. :P )

    5. Sylvia*

      I have never had that happen. It sounds bizarre and invasive. What if you are hurrying to meet a deadline?

    6. Aunt Piddy*

      That’s not normal, and I’ve had to have talks with our IT people about it myself (I’m an attorney and it’s NOT OKAY).

      They also shouldn’t be closing out your work without asking you. It’s SO rude. Talk to your manager.

    8. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You are correct that it’s not even remotely professional (pun intended). The degree depends on what kind of work you do and what the confidentiality requirements are. If you work in education or healthcare or finance and deal with a lot of PPI/sensitive information, this is off the charts out of line and something I would talk to your supervisor about ASAP.

    9. Friday*

      Not normal and rude. I remember an old job where IT did that ONCE to my boss, and she made sure the IT director instructed his staff that it wasn’t OK.

      And when IT remotes in, they should never be touching (or especially CLOSING) your own work. Yikes.

    10. Kathleen_A*

      Bonkers squared! Or even cubed!

      Clearly your IT department thinks what it does is far more important than what anyone else does, and also that IT personnel’s time is more important than anyone else’s time. And it is *wrong*.

    11. CustServGirl*

      Not normal. In all my positions at different jobs, we either receive notice in advance or we have to approve the screen-share.

    12. Banging My Head On My Keyboard*

      For people asking about the confidential nature of my work, I work in a grocery store so my work isn’t super confidential. However it is frequently very time urgent work. When I am updating a price, I can’t just let that get put on hold for a mystery amount of time while they noodle around on my screen.

      I’ve mentioned my frustration to my store manager, who says he also is annoyed by the habit and he has brought it up at store manager meetings he attends at our corporate office, but to no apparent result.
      The head of the IT department is the son of the owner of the company, so I don’t know if he refuses to make getting permission a formal policy, or if nobody has the guts to bring it up to him.

    13. Media Monkey*

      we have to accept a request for them to be able to remote in (and it is generally as we have reported a problem).

    14. CupcakeCounter*

      So very not normal. As a few other posters said, even if I am on the phone with the IT person and give permission I still have to click on a OK button for them to take over.

    15. Headshrinker Extraordinaire*

      Yeah, this is not normal. This week IT had to remote into my laptop to fix a problem, but they (1) contacted me on instant messaging to let me know and (2) asked if it was an okay time for them to take over. This also gave me the chance to save and close any sensitive information. I would say my IT’s way is normal, and yours is completely bonkers.

    16. Akcipitrokulo*

      In IT. No, none of our guys would dream of doing that (emergency security issues excepting).

      1. CyberNed*

        Agree. I work in cybersec so I view emergency security issues as priority #1 but if not that, it is super sketch when support just hops on your computer with no notification and no permission. If it keeps happening, I’d definitely let HR know. This lack of policy is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

    17. IT Person*

      Not normal, not good practice. If the company ever has an IT security audit they will get dinged hard for this — for no other reason than if employees get used to this happening they won’t notice a legitimate hack! Where I work we get the employee on the phone first and confirm it’s a good time to remote in (and I stay on the phone while I work so I can explain what I’m doing, ask if anything needs to be saved if I have to restart, etc).

      1. Banging My Head On My Keyboard*

        I think the next time it happens I will bring it up with the concern that we would not notice a legitimate hack with these practices. I always just get stuck on how rude it feels and that point had honestly never occurred to me.
        (But also I’ve been looking for a new job lately)

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        So much this. If you see your computer unexpectedly doing things on its own, you turn it off IMMEDIATELY and consider it compromised! Even if you’re not dealing with sensitive information.

    19. Psyche*

      This happened to me once. It isn’t the way it is supposed to work. I needed software installed and the guy decided to just remote in and do it. They are supposed to prearrange a time though.

    20. Al who is that Al*

      Totally out of line. We always check, either by email or by a remote message system that it is OK to remote on. So we do not see your desktop until you have OK’d it.
      To remote on without asking permission is not only wrong socially but they may well be in breach of confidentiality.
      We also ask the user to save any programs they have running at the time, although they should really be closing\saving anything important before they OK the remote on.
      A handy tip is to shut down your personal email address\chat\IM etc BEFORE we remote on. Messages from your friends, family are all very well popping up on the screen while we fix your issue and often amusing especially if it’s your horny partner who obviously can’t wait to get you home.
      Also do be aware we can see your wallpaper, naming no names, but the guy with the picture of himself at his 40th Playboy themed party with two obviously professional Playboy bunnies cuddling up to him while he did the big hug back while they looked at the camera with the “look at the crap I need to put up with” expression in their eyes ? A screenshot will indeed be taken and you will be mocked.

    22. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      This was “normal” at my last job but definitely not something I liked or considered appropriate.

    23. inoffensive nickname*

      Not normal. Not cool. Although we have the illusion of privacy where I work because they can’t remote in without our permission, they still maintain the capability of seeing everything on our screens. I’d be annoyed as heck if I was working on something and lost control of my mouse.

    24. DCGirl*

      Totally bonkers, but I sympathize. I once worked at a company where the IT director randomly remoted in to people’s computers just to make sure they weren’t surfing the web. He was loathed with the blazing passion of 1,000 white hot suns, and people cheered when he left.

    25. NotAnotherManager!*

      Team Entirely Bonkers. The guidelines on our IT remote access require explicit permission from the machine owner, and they can be fired for accessing someone’s computer without their permission.

    26. Seifer*

      Totally ridiculous. That happened to me once and I force shut down my computer. I got an irate call from IT a few minutes later and dryly told the guy that I had no way of knowing whether it was him or whether someone else got into my computer. He told his boss and his boss yelled at him. Never happened again.

    27. not a joke, a legit snack*

      That is insane. I work where we handle a lot of sensitive information. Our auditors would have a field day with that one.

    28. Carrie*

      I’d call that entirely bonkers, yes. What if you were working on something confidential? What if you lost work because they closed your stuff without saving it properly? They should at the very least call/email and say “I’m going to remote in at X time, be ready for it,” and it’d be better if they *asked* if X would be good.

    29. facepalm*

      I was a temp at a law firm where the (only) IT guy did this to me, often. That was when I was much younger and less sure of professional norms and with much less standing to protest against things I felt weren’t right, and I would not be happy to be somewhere now where that happened.

    30. Amethystmoon*

      Bonkers. Ours has to ask you via a pop-up window. You have control to shut it down if you wish.

    31. ENFP in Texas*

      Definitely not normal. You should have a heads up before someone is able to take control of your screen, and they should NOT be closing your stuff without permission!

    32. Not So NewReader*

      The only time I have seen this is when I returned to school. The IT person at the college remoted into my computer while I was sitting in her office. I said, “that is my desktop on your screen.” She said, “yeah, not many people know we can do this…..”
      I got scared. I never signed permission for that. At least not that I knew of.
      At work, people can remote in, I have to read them a number on my screen and then I have to click “accept” after they type that number into their computer. There’s a pop-up in the corner that says some thing like, “So-and-so can now see your screen.” Then when they sign out a pop-up tells me they have signed out.

    33. min*

      I think it’s completely bonkers, but the last 3 places I’ve worked at have all done the same. Once the IT guy was only about 50 feet away from me and still thought it was acceptable to fight me for the mouse until I figured it out rather than just tell me what he was doing.

    34. Nanani*

      Not normal. If your computer has been compromised and it’s not IT but some outside malicious agent, you won’t be able to tell until it’s too late, so it’s also a biiiig security problem.

    35. Purrsnikitty*

      Imagine some IT dude barreling into your office, wrestling for your mouse and keyboard and pushing you to the ground if necessary. Yeaaaah, that’s what just happened virtually :|

      IT should always contact your first, ask if it’s a good time and reschedule if needed. And if windows need to be closed or the computer restarted, IT should tell you and give you the time to at least save your work, and reschedule if doing so would be a real bother to your work (like losing an hour of work somehow).

      From what I’ve seen (I’m IT myself and I do remote support at times), this stems from an IT culture that does not respect the people it’s actually working for: the users. Support requests are seen as bothering and IT people will want to get things wrapped up as fast as possible, with minimum fuss… for them.

  19. Nini*

    I was interviewing with a consulting company for a position that required 75% travel. (I’ve also been in the process of moving cross country.) I had 2 great video interviews and then they asked to fly me out to their office for one in person, but it was the same week I was making my road trip to my new home. I told them the date wouldn’t work and suggested the following week. They said they’d be be in touch about the new date, and then I never heard back. Is this typical at that stage of an interview? My gut says no.

      1. Nini*

        Over 2 weeks now. In the meantime I got another offer so it’s a bit of a moot point now, but it stuck with me as odd to get to the stage where they wanted to fly me out to interview and then, when the first date didn’t work, they just decided that it wasn’t worth doing at all.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          My initial thought was that they needed time to figure out when all the necessary players would be available, but two weeks seems too long for that. On the plus side, if that really was their thought process, you probably dodged a bullet, so congrats on your new position!

    2. Sneep Snoop*

      How long has it been since you last heard from them? In a lot of organizations, hiring and everything related to it gets pushed to the bottom of the to-do list whenever there are fires to put out, which means that it’s not impossible that they just weren’t able to get back to you yet. You have more information on them at this point though, if there are other signs of them being flaky, it might be a red flag.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Hard to say. They could have moved on with other candidates who are available that week, they could be waiting on key interviewers to confirm their availability, the person responsible for scheduling could be out sick, or they could have forgotten to click “send” on their email back to you (happens more often than you’d think). It’s probably worth reaching out again to see if they are able to schedule for a different date.

    4. LKW*

      Depends on the timeline to get people hired. Or your contact was on vacation or you got pushed to the bottom of the pile because they just moved on to the next candidate.

      Not totally abnormal.

    5. WatchOutForThatTree*

      Depending on the size of the consulting company, it may well be typical. The very high level of travel seems to indicate that billable work is mostly done at the customer’s site. If a consultant is in the home office, that means she’s not out billing customers. For that reason, consulting firms don’t schedule much home office time. One day a month seems about right to plan who is going to be where during the next month, review the business metrics, and complete any other administrative tasks… such as interviews.

      If the company is still interested, they may be trying to find a date for the interview. That date might be the next office day… 4 weeks out from the original date… or maybe one further out.

    6. MeganTea*

      It can be, depending on how hard it is to find a day that would work for all the people who would be interviewing you in person. I don’t think it’s good practice, but with coordinating multiple calendars for busy people, it may simply not be practical to try to coordinate a different date if their other in-person interviewees are strong candidates who are able to make the visit on the proposed date.

    7. Glitsy Gus*

      It depends. Sometimes people are dinks who are just rude. Sometimes things get away from folks and it takes longer than normal to get back to someone.

      I would say Allison’s usual advice of sending them one more email asking if they would like to reschedule is a good idea after two weeks. If they do not respond within a couple of days, you have your answer.

  20. I'm going to go eat worms*

    Is it normal to have an ombudsman come in and try to repair a broken corporate culture instead of actually dealing with the problem?
    Detail – we have some horrible horrible humans who are long time employees – and everyone works around them and pretends that the culture problem can be fixed by things like the trust building curricula and ‘sharing our feelings/thoughts’.
    Is it normal to try solve this by throwing money at some ridiculous consultant instead of just managing the actual problem.

    1. Peaches*

      Not normal.

      Well, actually I can’t say it’s not NORMAL, since I once worked for a company who did this very thing, but it’s definitely not an appropriate way of handling things. What they’re doing isn’t going to change the toxicity of your company.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s normal.

      It almost never works, and it’s a strong indicator that your management is conflict-avoidant and weak. But unfortunately it is normal.

        1. KatieHR*

          It is normal but very stupid. I don’t understand why companies don’t fire people who bring the company down but they won’t do it.

    3. Perse's Mom*

      It’s a terrible practice, but it seems unfortunately also very common – it boils down to management not being willing to do their jobs.

      1. ursula*

        Yeah. It happens, but also, that doesn’t mean you need to be okay with it (or continue working there).

      2. Sneep Snoop*

        Yeah I think it ultimately boils down to a “your manager sucks and isn’t going to change” type situation.

    5. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      It’s normal in big companies. It also often fails, because as you have observed, it’s a way for the company to pass the responsibility for the problem to someone else.

      There is a recurring them in many of these questions: the practice may be “normal”, but that doesn’t mean it’s effective or beneficial.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      Does ombudsman mean something different? For me, it’s a regulatory position that can come in and has a lot of powers.

      1. WellRed*

        IN a business context it can also be a person that investigates complaints, tries to find solutions/solve problems.

    7. peanutbutty*

      (sadly) very normal in my experience of higher education/ charity/ public sector. Less certain if normal in private sector but I suspect still pretty normal. Managing culture change is hard; consultants are pricey but easy to hire in and pretend you’re fixing things.

    8. AnotherJill*

      I’ve only known once of a broken culture being actually changed for the better, and in that case, virtually all of upper management was fired and replaced to fix the problems. Otherwise, it is totally normal for various touchy-feely pseudo psychobabble approaches to be employed.

    9. Asenath*

      Oh, dear. Normal. That brings back memories of a long-ago employer. The Powers That Be eventually noticed that there was what I think they called a morale problem among the workers. I would have expected that a few minutes thought about job stability and salaries might have given them a clue about causes, but they hired a team of consultants from another province to come in and interview us all. I can’t remember what the final report said – I doubt I ever got a copy – but there was no real change as a result. I think they had one or two out-of-office workshops or retreats or something to improve morale instead of addressing actual issues.

    11. Artemesia*

      Unfortunately gutless management that won’t deal with ‘broken stair’ employees is very common.

    12. I'm going to go eat worms*

      It’s good to hear that this is normal. Thanks!
      There is no question it’s ineffective – it’s a colossal waste of time and money for an org that is trying to stay afloat.
      But that’s everything we do in a nutshell

    14. Former Young Lady*

      Depending on the industry/jurisdiction, there may be a need for CYA measures if longtime employees are going to be disciplined or terminated. Depending on those (and a zillion other) variables, such CYA measures might hold more water if it’s a third-party firm doing “shape up or ship out” intervention, rather than internal leadership instituting a PIP.

      So, as the lawyers are fond of saying, “It depends.” Like all outsourcing, it can be done for the right reasons or the wrongest of wrongly wrong ones.

    15. typical-X*

      Is it normal to try solve obvious problems by throwing money at some ridiculous consultant instead of just managing the actual problems? Yes, I’m afraid that as stupid as this is, it’s common enough to be in the “normal” category.

    16. ..Kat..*

      Be careful about sharing your thoughts and feelings. This can be weaponized against you at a later time.

    17. MeganTea*

      I think this is a common practice for management that is somehow dysfunctional, especially if the higher level managers are conflict-adverse. I wouldn’t call this normal though.

    19. Argh!*

      Not normal, but admirable in my opinion. Those horrible people were permitted to be horrible and get away with it for many years. It’s not fair to them to just fire them for management’s failure to step it up.

      I currently work for TerribleBoss who has been in her position for over 20 years and sucked at it from the beginning. I think management is just letting our department suck until the happy day when she goes away. I really just want to ask her “So when are you retiring already so I can have some hope of happiness!”

      So… good on them. A lot of places don’t bother even trying to turn things around. They either resist change or they fire people whose behavior they actually encouraged.

      It’s also normal not to be optimistic about it. I hope you check in with us in awhile to see if any change came of it.

    20. Reliant*

      Normal. They will next bring in a consultant to train everyone on “communication “ and “dealing with conflict” but it won’t work because they won’t manage problems with communication and conflict.

  21. Anon for this*

    What are some red flags for burnout vs regular, periodic work stress? I have loved my job for over 5 years, but lately I dread going in the mornings. I’ve spent the last few weeks feeling pretty overwhelmed and don’t enjoy many of my responsibilities like I used to. I can’t pinpoint when it started, but for at least the last 3 months, I don’t even feel like I’m very good at my job anymore. I still get a lot of positive feedback on my performance from my boss and colleagues, so I don’t think my performance has really suffered.

    1. CustServGirl*

      I think this needs to be more specific for this thread. If you are asking if burn-out is normal, it is unfortunate but yes- it usually means there is a greater issue that needs to be resolved.

      What’s even more normal (and not indicative of a problem) is boredom…we all get bored of our same routines. Try to refine your skills, volunteer to take on small projects if you can, or use downtime for personal development.

      1. valentine*

        If there’s no end in sight, it’s burnout. If you had a weekly deadline, that would just be stress at first, but could accumulate into burnout.

        If the place burned down and your first feeling would be relief, it’s burnout and you should flee.

    2. LawBee*

      I’ve been dealing with this a LOT lately. It sounds like the early stages of burnout – but the good news is that you can probably address it now and stop it from being awful! The best cure for burnout is extended time away from work (no phone, no email, etc.). If you can’t take a week or two off with zero contact, I strongly urge talking to your supervisor. A good boss doesn’t want burnt out employees, and will work with you to get you back where you need to be.

    3. Sneep Snoop*

      Long story short, the only way to know if it’s burnout vs. temporary exhaustion would be if it doesn’t go away. But you don’t have to wait to get help! If your organization has an EAP, this would be a great time to make use of their services.

    4. Perpal*

      FWIW I have a hard time telling burnout from some flavor of SAD (Seasonal affective disorder)
      I try to spend more time outside, exercise more, attend to sleep hygiene and see if it lightens up in the spring. If that doesn’t work then yeah, maybe burnout.

    5. Ashie*

      One thing I’ve learned is that if you start wondering if it’s time to go, it’s time to go.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You know when we become overly familiar with our jobs, that is we could do them while we sleep sometimes a resentment can creep in. “A chimp could do this work! My job is so dull!”
      It no longer feels like we are using talents or abilities, it can feel robotic. This is because we are just so used to do the job.
      Can you take on new tasks? What things do you do to keep your job interesting to you?
      I am going to assume you want to stay put. Sometimes when jobs become repetitious and unchallenging, we can leverage that by saying, “I have a good handle on my job, this is my opportunity to concentrate on life goals.” So how are your life goals doing? If you know that life at home is moving forward, that can bring some spark to the job by adding meaning to the job. You need the paycheck to fund the forward movement in your personal life.

    8. Mother of Cats*

      Harvard Business Review has a great article called “When Burnout Is a Sign You Should Leave Your Job” – it helped me realize (along with some kind commenters here) that it’s time for me to move on from my current situation. Also, Christine Maslach has some great research on burnout. Burnout has components beyond mere exhaustion/overwork – it also involves cynicism and inefficacy. The inefficacy is what made me realize I’m burned out – it’s a feeling of ineffectiveness and inability to accomplish anything that really undermines your confidence. When you say you don’t feel like you’re good at your job, that’s a bigger red flag for me than just feeling overwhelmed after a busy couple of months. But try taking some vacation time if you can, and see if you feel re-energized when you return. If you do, you maybe just needed a break. If not, you might be burning out.

  22. Rachel*

    I a little over one year into my first full-time post graduation, and wondering if these behaviors are normal/typical. I admit that I can lean more on the planning ahead/setting guidelines side, whereas my supervisor prefers to work last-minute and based on shorter time frames.

    Behaviors I’ve observed:
    – Supervisor is often only capable of getting tasks done when I’ve told them 5-6x what needs to be done. I’m fine with reminders, but often times my work is more-so focused on making sure they gets their work done. It’s turned more-so into me delegating tasks to them vs. them telling me what my tasks/duties are. This has given me a nice amount of independence, but more supervision would be nice earlier in my career.
    – Lack of communication: often times with myself and others, they just assume things are being done without clearly communicating her expectations. This often leads to my supervisor blaming others for missteps or others being caught off guard that my supervisor has these expectations.
    – My supervisor tends to react pretty emotionally and take things very personally in the workplace. This has led higher-ups to go directly to me to get work done, versus my supervisor (as many don’t enjoy working with my supervisor , because they don’t know if they’re going to be yelled at, spoken to rashly, etc.)
    – Perpetual lateness. I understand this in many fields where the hours are later. However, we work in an academic institution where the hours are pretty 9-5, and my supervisor regularly arrives 1-2 hours late. I can be flexible with this one, as I absolutely understand things come up (lateness is just a personal pet peeve of mine, in all honesty)

    I appreciate any feedback!

    1. LawBee*

      Your supervisor sucks and isn’t going to change. You’re having to do a lot of managing up, which bites. On the “is this normal” scale, I would say – NOPE.

      1. Rachel*

        Thank you, much appreciated! I’ve been feeling that way, but couldn’t tell if I was over reacting.

        In the meantime, I’ve been job searching and in two final rounds! So, hopefully the next supervisor will provide better guidance.

      2. Mazzy*

        Yup though reminding your boss to respond to an email or approve something multiple times can be normal

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Well until I read the rest, I was going to say that the first point is maybe not completely normal but understandable since supervisor/managers usually have a different set of priorities that the down in the dirt, nitty-gritty people. With all of the other stuff in there though it sounds like your supervisor is not good at their job. The higher-ups you mentioned need to do their jobs as your supervisors manager and get this fixed or get them out.

      1. Rachel*

        Ah yeah, I get that. It’s definitely the combination of everything I mentioned that’s frustrated me. It’s a pretty complacent department overall, and I don’t think they’d take any action against her. She’s been in the role for over ten years, and I’m looking to internally transfer within the institution.

    3. CJ Cregg*

      Normal? Nope! But does it happen? Yes!

      My last job was one wherein I was the go-between for my boss and everyone else. My boss was like yours: could only function when things were on a tight deadline (and totally loved “the rush”); no clear communication; super emotional; came and went as he wanted to do.

      I needed to stay in that job for a bit so I did what I could to make it work: (1) tried to minimize the last-minuteness of everything and work on communication with him; and (2) build my own management and leadership capacity as I stepped in where he was lacking.

      As soon as I could, I left that job and I see in hindsight how not normal it was, but was glad I made the most of it.

      1. Rachel*

        Thanks for your input and advice!

        My biggest concern has been getting used to this being normal. As it’s my first job, I don’t want to lose sight of what is actually normal in a workplace and consider dysfunctional as functional. I could be here for a bit but am also exploring my internal transfer options.

        1. CJ Cregg*

          Right. It is being able to differentiate with the norm is v. what is normal in a functional workplace. Best of luck!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I have had incompetent bosses and highly competent bosses. I can assure you that when you hit a highly competent boss this whole picture shifts quickly. I went from dreading my boss showing up for work to being happy and excited to see my boss. Differences in people. The second boss was one KNOWS her stuff. I would be having a head-banging problem and catch myself saying, “Boss will be here shortly, she will know what to do!” The relief is incredible. “I can’t wait to talk to her, she will just walk me through this OR she will tell me what source to use to find an answer.”

          Competent bosses recognize competent employees. My boss would say, “Back at ya!” She went on to point out times where she told herself, “NSNR will be here at x time and she will get this on track here. She will know what to do.”

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Managing up is fairly common if you’re in a support position. If you’re an AA or EA who is directly supporting your supervisor, it makes sense that it’s part of your job to ensure things are done in a timely manner. If you’re not, then it’s less normal and a red flag. Even if you are in that type of position, it sounds like you and your current boss are not terribly compatible.

      Lack of communication is sadly all too common in corporate environments.

      1. Rachel*

        Right, of course. I’m a departmental assistant, but am doing more-so the work of an assistant director (from others I’ve spoken to in the field). So, overall there’s a bit of confusion over what my job “actually” is and I tried to get more clarification in my review.

        I’m fine with reminders, etc. but it’s gotten to a point where my supervisor cannot do work nor know what her work is without me telling her. It’s not too busy of an office, and I’ve managed to take-on a lot more resposnsibilities.

        1. Artemesia*

          Be sure that while you are focusing on how much you have to ‘mind’ this supervisor and their work that they are not doing very significant work you are less aware of. I have been in situations where the star producers were also annoying and required hand holding on the administrivia also part of their role. The hand holder might have been less aware of the major contributions for all the annoying behaviors.

    5. Sylvia*

      This really isn’t normal.

      I had a similar job when I was younger (also at an academic institution) and after a year it occurred to me that I was hired to “manage” my boss. There were several reasons why I believed this, but the most significant was that the higher-ups started coming to me almost immediately and asking me to do things that should have been my manager’s job. I was also asked to remind her of meetings, etc.

      I stayed on for a year, thinking that perhaps this would be a good opportunity to impress people and move up but that turned out not to be the case. I spent most of my time fixing small disasters she had caused and covering for her when she disappeared for hours, and I didn’t really have a chance to contribute anything other than damage control to my department.

      I recommend that you look for a different job. It’s very hard to grow in that situation, and it sounds like the higher-ups are not interested in reprimanding your manager, they are just using you for a band-aid.

      1. Rachel*

        Thank you for your input and understanding. After my year review, it became clear that there’s nowhere for me to move up in this department. Currently, I am looking for internal transfers within the academic institution. Thank you for letting me know this isn’t normal. Your experience describes exactly what I’ve been experiencing.

    6. Half-Caf Latte*

      I’d say the lateness thing is not necessarily abnormal- it sounds like your culture might be more 9-5, and your boos is out of sync, but lots of times people have hours that aren’t the same as the rest of the office. Even as a peer or subordinate, it can be really hard to know whether someone has negotiated different hours, or if their boss doesn’t care, or if their specific role isn’t time-sensitive the way yours is, etc.

      I’d stick to the impact it has on your work when evaluating it- if you can’t get X from boss urgently because they’re not in until 11, and deadlines are missed, deal with that. But if it’s just- I’m here and he’s not, I’d try to let it go

    7. Manana*

      1 and 2 are pretty normal but annoying. Depending on how busy and thinly spread a supervisor is they can have many employees with many concurrent projects occurring so just can’t reasonably have the projects you have rightly prioritized in your mind on their front burner. 3 is not normal and bad management. Their bosses should have dealt with this, not tiptoed around it. 4 is normal for a lot of managers, though if it’s actually affecting your ability to work then it’s an issue.

    8. Not So Little My*

      I’m debating whether to say “normal” or “not normal” because this happens a lot with bad managers, but it is definitely a sign of a manager who is bad at their job and is not being held accountable by their manager. Your options are to manage up or leave. AAM has lots of good information about managing up, but you’ll probably get sick of it after a few months or years of it with nothing changing.

    9. mourning mammoths*

      >they just assume things are being done without clearly communicating her expectations. This often leads to my supervisor blaming others for missteps or others being caught off guard that my supervisor has these expectations.

      In my case, with my boss, I have realised this is a manipulation tactic to get me to work more hours and shoulder responsibility that shouldn’t be mine. YMMV.

    10. Argh!*

      Crappy supervisors are common but not normal. There are some good ones out there. Polish up that resume and get out of there!

  23. Peaches*

    Is it normal for a manager to scrutinize employees for leaving right on time?

    For context, our office operating hours at from 7:30-4:30, M-F. Most of us leave right at 4:30 (and arrive right at 7:30, for what it’s worth). My manager is always making comments like, “everyone but me just runs out the door right at 4:30 like their lives depend on it.” We have a great team with a lot of hard workers. Most of us go above and beyond to do a good job during operating hours. If (and when) we actually needed to stay late, we all would. However, by the nature of our work, it’s simply not the case 99% of the time that we need to stay late. I’ve been here for three years, and have stayed late 4 or 5 times, and there has never been another time where I just left time sensitive work unfinished to “run out the door at 4:30”, nor has anyone else to my knowledge.

    Interestingly enough, my manager is the only one who usually arrives late (between 7:45 and 8:00 most of the time). No one cares that she doesn’t show up right at 7:30 like the rest of us, but we DO care that we’re being chastised for leaving at our scheduled time.

    Do I have a right to be bothered by this?

    2. CatCat*

      Yes, it’s super annoying.

      I worked for a manager like this. She wasn’t a good manager and focused on the wrong stuff (also rolled in later than everyone else and then was miffed when people left earlier than her.)

      1. Peaches*

        This is 100% how my manager is. She gets worked up over things that don’t matter, but often drops the ball over things that DO matter. Also, she never acknowledges the fact that she’s always the latest person in the office, so perhaps it is okay for us to leave earlier than her (for what it’s worth, I know she isn’t working longer hours than any of us; she has mentioned before that she is required to pick her kids up from after school daycare by 5:15, and the daycare is in her hometown at least 15 minutes from our office.)

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      Very normal. I took about three times of me asking my manager if anything wasn’t getting done to counter act his comments about me always leaving on time. Sometimes with my lap-top, so I could finish up work at home.

    6. Sneep Snoop*

      Yeah, I’d say it’s obnoxious of your manager since you say that you’ve stayed late on the rare occasion it was needed and have always finished time-sensitive stuff before leaving. It may be that she’s an “accidental hypocrite” – she might not realize that if she comes in later, it’s logical that she’d leave later, while everyone else who came in on time would leave also on time. Or it may be that she comes from a work culture where staying late is a sign of being hardworking (regardless or the work actually being done or if the job needs it at all).

      Anyway, those comments don’t seem warranted and I think it’s understandable to be annoyed. However, a lot of people out there place a disproportionate importance on butt-in-seat time vs. work being actually done (one of my past colleagues would brag about how she never took breaks, but everytime I’d walk past her desk she’d be playing Bejeweled).

      Next time your manage makes a comment like this, you could always say something like “I couldn’t help but notice that you’ve said that a couple of times, and I was wondering if you were concerned about our work or our dedication to the company”. If everything is actually fine, maybe she’ll realize she’s being negative for no reason.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      You can be bothered. I had a boss like this and at every one on one he would remind me that this is a salaried position so the expectation is that your week will be a little over 40 hours to ensure everything is done. He mostly had new grads or people who transferred from a structured, hourly position in the manufacturing plant so it was meant to help adjust expectations from that environment to a corporate, salaried environment. Good advice for the long run but he never managed to pay attention to see if that advice was followed. Just said it every damn meeting. After 18 or so months of working 50+ hour weeks I lost my shit on him and never had to hear that again. And yes I did still have a job after that – he was a really good boss just a little stuck in his ways.

      1. Rebecca1*

        I’d like to hear more about what you said to him and how he responded in the moment, if you feel like it.

    9. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You definitely have a right to be bothered, especially if you’re hourly. If you’re salary, I can see how it might not look great to run out exactly on time every single day, but as long as your work is getting done, it shouldn’t really matter.

    10. londonedit*

      Not healthy or productive, but sadly fairly normal. You definitely have a right to be bothered by it, but unfortunately I’m not sure how successful you’d be in getting it to stop!

      For some reason, coming in earlier and leaving earlier seems to look like slacking off/running out of the door early to some people, whereas coming in later and leaving later looks like hard work and dedication. I guess people just see others leaving at 4.30 and think ‘Huh, that’s not fair, I have to be here until 5′ and forget that the people who leave at 4.30 have been there since 7.30. People just don’t keep that sort of information about coworkers’ schedules in their minds. I tend to start work earlier and finish earlier – all totally approved and not commented on by my bosses, but I know that the other people on my team very rarely see me getting to work at 8am, so they just have to trust that I am doing that and that’s why I ‘get to’ leave at half past four. If they don’t trust me, then that’s where it becomes a problem.

    11. LDP*

      My boss does this too! I think it’s just certain personalities that are more prone to this. This is the first job I’ve had where my boss is very often unwilling to be flexible about my time. She never looks at what time I clock in (which is usually early) or how long I take for lunch. She’s super focused on what time I leave. I think she likes to give the impression to the rest of our office that her team works the longest hours getting everything done, so maybe your manager has some of that going on?

    14. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      In my experience, it’s generational. Leaving right at the dot of 5:00 or packing up before it’s time to leave will really irk a lot of Boomer-age managers. It’s taken a a sign that you are just doing the bare minimum or can’t wait to leave and will drop a task halfway through to bolt out the door as soon as it is opened. I think it is a cultural holdover from the days before email was on your phone (or existed), and you had to be at your desk to do any work.

      Not fair – but very common. There are ways to manage it.

    15. Amethystmoon*

      It depends on the manager & job. I’m hourly, so they don’t want us to put in overtime because then they’d have to pay us more. I think with salary, the expectation in some industries is some — possibly many — late evenings doing work, since overtime doesn’t have to be paid.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        I had a boss who did this when I was hourly, though. “You should be here and available 24/7. DO NOT GET OVERTIME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.”

        I later discovered this meant, “You’re hourly non-exempt but I’m slicing your timecards so it only says 40 hours.”

    17. Rebecca*

      Annoying and common, I’m afraid, my old manager would stand in the hall, point at her watch and make snarky comments like that. We are all non-exempt, and she didn’t want to pay overtime, so yes, when quitting time comes, we leave. Simple as that.

    18. theletter*

      I think it is unfortunately normal that people sometimes forget that not everyone experiences what they experience.

      I think you could tactfully bring up that by arriving on time, the team was able to finish their work on time, hence being able to leave on time. Then find one of those old mugs that says “The day sure is long when you show up for work on time” and show it off at work.

    19. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like this. A friend of mine used to arrive at work at 7:00am while many of her colleagues arrived after 9:00am. When she left at 6:00pm, she’d get “must be nice” comments. When she pointed out that she’d been there since 7:00am, they’d say “well that’s YOUR choice.” Never mind that all of her work was done. She is glad to be out of that environment. So, yes, that is a big deal to some people. The best thing to do is to put in the hours when needed, always get your work done, and do a good job. And if you do work in a culture where butt-in-chair visibility at certain times matters to management, then play along while deciding whether to find a new job.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My response to “must be nice” has been “yes it is. It’s the good part of a 6-3 schedule.”
        If anyone keeps poking, I casually mention that I started working those hours when on deadline for our European office and that I learned it reduces my drive time significantly.
        So far that’s been enough to oder silo them. “You drive HOW far!?”

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Oh autoINcorrect you fooled me again…. although there are a few perfume&cologne fans who deserve an “odor silo”, what I typed was “totally derail”!

    20. nora*

      My boss two jobs ago was like that. We were not allowed to leave before 5pm unless we were taking leave or running the mail to the post office, ever. She once saw me shut down my computer at 4:59 and scolded me. I would often twiddle my thumbs until 5:01, shut down, and run out the door before she could harangue me about something else. My favorite was when I would text her about something at 4pm on a Friday, not get a response until 5:15, and then face her wrath for not taking care of it immediately.

      Current job: no staff at my level are allowed to stay past 5pm. At 4:59 the team lead literally rounds everyone up and herds us toward the door.

    21. MissDisplaced*

      Annoying!
      I had a boss/owner like this as well. He would roll in at 10am. To be fair, sometimes he would be working at home early, but he didn’t see that I was there at 8am, only that I wanted to leave at 5 or 5:30.

    22. PoliLaw Wonk*

      Sadly, normal. I think this is a holdout from a mindset that values time spent burning midnight oil over productivity. Unfortunately that “last one to leave the office” mentality is tough to shake if top management wants to dig in. Get out of there if you can.

  24. Wearing Many Hats*

    Take two! Is it normal for people to cancel HR meetings? I run our HR department (among other things) and regularly have my meetings canceled by higher ups. This means the programs I am in charge of don’t get started in a timely manner or get the feedback I would like.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I don’t think it’s normal, but it is probably because you have multiple roles and they prioritize one above the others.

      They might simply need some feedback: “Hey, we really need to hold this training on Workplace Llama Grooming, so we can comply with the law.”

    2. Bopper*

      HR doesn’t make money. They may be prioritizing the other customer meetings.
      You may want to stress the impact of the program…
      “I wanted to go over the Ethics training with you. If I don’t get your feedback, we are in danger of government monitoring if anything goes wrong.”

      1. LKW*

        This. HR has an important role but you cost money, you don’t make money (maybe you help them avoid spending money, but you require money to do that).

        Internal work will always be a lower priority over client work.

    3. ldd*

      This is very normal behavior from higher ups. The higher the more last minute cancellations. Shitty, but normal.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        In fairness, most higher-up cancellations (at least in my experience) are because something has blown up and requires immediate, high-level attention. I report to a C-level executive, and her schedule is wall-to-wall most days, and I do get bumped for routine check-ins or administrative meetings; however, when *I* have an urgent thing, she also sometimes has to bump other people, too. It has not been my experience (and this is my third C-level boss) that they’re blowing things off because you’re not important or they want to take a long lunch but rather because something more pressing eats their schedule.

        1. ENFP in Texas*

          This. C-suite folks are incredibly pressed for time and their schedules are always changing as their priorities change.

    4. cmcinnyc*

      When I’m scheduling for the executive team, HR programs are the first thing that gets pushed back in the schedule. HR stuff just doesn’t have the impact of say, missing a construction deadline or bumping an external team of executives (which is very hard to re-schedule). Internals, and especially HR, get bumped to accommodate stuff that costs money or is outside the building/hard to reschedule. Sorry. Normal.

    5. Someone Else*

      I think it is very normal for higher ups in general to constantly cancel or reschedule meetings, regardless of who they’re with. So it’s not so much a normal to cancel HR meetings as it is a function of trying to meet with higher ups in general. If it’s only the higher ups canceling, sorry I think it’s normal. If it’s more than just higher ups and that was just one example… then it might be you’re just in a cancel-happy workplace.

  25. Sneep Snoop*

    I starting working 1 year ago in a small department inside a community college-type institution (outside the US). It’s my first position in a place like that, and I’m now starting to realize that people are very disillusioned/disgruntled with management (thankfully, my department seems to be better off than the others).

    There is a lot of grumbling, passive-aggressiveness and complaints (and some drama, but that one I know for a fact exists everywhere). For instance, I sit on a policy reviewing committee with people from other departments, and the meetings always turn into a 2 hour grievance/gossip party and nothing gets done.

    So, is this sorta normal for an institution like this one? I’m thinking there’s a chance it is, since the high job security makes it likely that people are going to stick around even if they’re incompetent, but I’d like to know if it’s a sign that the organization is dysfunctional and I shouldn’t get too comfy here.

    1. Natalie*

      Yes, in my experience that kind of bitterness/burnout can be really normal, in all kinds of institutions. That doesn’t make it not annoying, mind you…

    2. Sarah N*

      So, I can’t speak to outside the U.S., but at least inside the U.S., I do think all levels of academic institutions can tend to have somewhat of a complaining culture. For myself, I am currently at an institution where I’d say things are objectively very good (and having been in other institutions, certainly I think things are comparatively very good!), but of course with every job you can find things to complain about! And while I think people are mostly happy, meetings often do turn into endless griping sessions about sometimes legitimate and sometimes small complaints. In particular, I think committee work involving stuff like policy review is very, very likely to devolve into a bitch session.

      All that said, I would say with academia the key is to listen to the CONTENT of people’s complaints and decide if those things are really issues for you. For example: “There are multiple serial sexual harassers in our institution, higher admin doesn’t care and won’t do anything about it, and we are powerless to change this situation even though students are being harmed” is very different than “Oh man, this new expense report system is SO ANNOYING, I can’t believe we are really being expected to provide the date for every single receipt we submit!” And then if you decide the complaints are mostly the latter variety, try not to get sucked into the negativity as much as you can. But honestly I think it would be very, very rare to find an academic setting where people are always sunshine and roses and positivity. :)

      1. Sneep Snoop*

        I like your take on this. I do get a feeling like it could be just a case of complainey academic culture. Thinking back on the content of the grievances, I feel like the only ones I truly agree with are related to the shoddy IT infrastructure. The rest seems par for the course – students can be rowdy, faculty can be flaky, and not everyone is gonna agree with management all the time.

    3. AnotherJill*

      Drama is totally normal in education institutions. They can be great places to work, but generally you have to keep your head up and keep out of the petty issues.

    4. redorange*

      Very normal for higher education. A lot of people at the college I worked at had been there for years and decades because the job security and retirement benefits are so good, but you could tell they were miserable and would leave if they could.

      A lot of the staff would complain about the privileges of faculty, and the faculty would have their own drama amongst themselves. There were a lot of cliques and gossip circles, and a lot of alliances. It really affected workflow and output because if let’s say, someone in my department had previously wronged someone in IT, the IT guys wouldn’t answer our requests when we submitted a ticket. It reminded me a lot of high school, especially the way people would hold grudges for a long time and remember things people said to them years ago. Low budget departments resented departments with higher budgets and everyone felt like they deserved to be paid more.

      It was a real mind-warp for me because it was my first job out of college and I had just graduated from the college I was working at. I left because I felt like the negativity was detrimental to my professional growth and development and I felt uncomfortable being constantly surrounded by coworkers who are disillusioned, burnt out and too disgruntled to want to offer you support.

    5. lailaaaaaaah*

      Having worked in a few public sector places, including a community college, that seems to be fairly standard? Like you said, the high job security can result in some incompetent people being kept on, and also just that public sector setups like that can often be hotbeds of nitpicky policies and minutiae that people feel very strongly about.

      Although, as another commenter has said, listen to /what/ they’re complaining about. If it’s policy/management standard stuff, fine. If people are being actively harmed (i.e. harassment), that’s a red flag.

  26. Geoffrey*

    I’m fairly certain this is abnormal, bad, and just barely skirting illegal, but I want to get input. My company has just announced “Fines for meeting tardiness” at a dollar a minute, with the proceeds going to an (unannounced and presumably undecided) charity. It doesn’t seem like anyone is going to be strict about enforcing this, but my plan is to simply laugh it off with a “how odd!” if someone tries to call me out. Is it worth pushing back more strongly? I’m in a reasonably safe and well-compensated position compared to some other employees, and I’m debating whether to push back for their sake.

    1. Peridot*

      Oh, hell no.

      I think Alison’s typical response is to see if you can push back as a group, but if it really would endanger some people’s jobs, and if you really are in a safe position, I think it would definitely be good to push back.

    3. k8isgreat*

      I hate when people do this under the “guise” of charity. It’s like, “we’re unfairly penalizing you, but it’s for a good cause so you’ll look like a jerk when you complain about it” Totally not normal.

    4. Jamie*

      If you can push back it’s a decent thing to do for the others who aren’t in the position to do so.

      As someone who is unreasonably annoyed when meetings don’t start on time and who has, perhaps, considered a policy authorizing beheadings for repeat offenders this is completely OTT. I wouldn’t pay a fine no matter how insignificant the amount unless I had no choice and I’d resent it a disproportionate amount.

    5. Aunt Piddy*

      Oh wow, that’s incredibly infantilizing. Especially if you are late because of something more important than that meeting. I’d push back like crazy, if you have the political capital to do it. Especially since they aren’t being transparent with the charity aspect.

    6. Perse's Mom*

      Do you get the sense that they’re looking for reasons to punish people (likely the already less well-compensated employees) when they could just accept that a few people will be 5 min late because of legitimate reasons and get on with things? Is this passive-aggressive behavior because managers don’t want to manage people who may be chronically late for work (assuming timeliness – and these meetings – actually matter in those roles)?

      If they’re just being crappy to be crappy, it’s wonderful of you to push back on it for the sake of those who aren’t empowered to do so. It may help (emphasis on may, but in my experience the people making these decisions are usually far removed from the people these decisions actually impact) to point out things like… we have a few people who take public transportation and if the bus is running late, there is no power on earth that will get them here on time, and it’s unfair to punish them for circumstances outside of their control. It’s actually behavior that WILL drive down morale across the board and reflects badly on the company as a whole.

    7. Professor Plum*

      That would make me want to ask for a corresponding bonus for being early to meetings.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have seen this before, actually, although it only ever applied to managers and above for meetings with higher ups. That said, I truly don’t find that normal even if it’s something I’ve seen before.

      I would push back. There are just so many reasons why you might be late for a meeting that are out of your control. If the issue is that there is tardiness on a regular basis for seemingly no good reason, then that is a coaching situation with the offender(s). If the issue is that everyone has back to back meetings all day long and it’s essentially impossible to get to the next meeting on time unless your current meeting ends early, then it’s time to take a good hard look at what meetings are needed, why the culture requires constant meetings, etc.

    9. LKW*

      There was an article about this – I’m sure someone else can link, but I think the gist was that the punishment for missing the meeting would be more than the person made in an hour (and were technically working).

      So, no – not kosher.

    10. Galahad*

      I gather that many people are late for meetings and it wastes everyone’s time. This is a much nicer / chummier way of telling people that it is their job to show up.

      The official alternative would be “I will track who is late and if you are more than 3 minutes late to 5 meetings a year you will be fired / put on probation / have your bonus docked” etc.

      Just start showing up 5 minutes early for every meeting and you will be fine. (and likely be in line for a bonus from that manager, too).

      1. Parenthetically*

        a much nicer / chummier way of telling people that it is their job to show up

        Nah, I think it’s a much more childish, petty, and infantilizing way of telling people that it is their job to show up. It’s being implemented in lieu of, you know, actually managing the employees who are disrupting meetings with their lateness, and like all “policies” that are implemented across the board rather than dealing with problem employees, it’s representative of ineffective management.

      2. Psyche*

        I’m missing how this is a nice way to do anything. “I’m going to fine you for being late” is much worse than saying “Being on time to meetings is a job requirement and if you are repeatedly late you will be placed on a PIP.”

        1. Ashley*

          I have co-workers who are repeatedly late to meetings but my boss isn’t bothered enough that they waste my time being late. So while it is nice to say they should have consequences for being late sometimes you are limited. (And I have had the very direct no sugar coating conversation with him about being late. We now have fewer meetings. ) I bet the ‘fine’ came in a moment of frustration from someone. I would be prompt and if they try to fine you bring it up then as to why you were late.

          1. Parenthetically*

            Of course there are ways around it, but it’s still indicative of reactionary, ineffective management, which is the issue. Not “how do I cope with this” but “is this normal or should it be a red flag in my mind?”

      3. Djuna*

        Showing up 5 mins early isn’t always possible, though. Especially if you’re in back-to-back meetings in different parts of a building.
        We’ve tackled this at work by starting meetings 5-10 minutes “late” to make room for everyone to get to the room and so we can sort out any tech issues with vidcon etc. without cutting in to meeting time. We also try to finish 5 minutes early when possible to give people buffer time to get to their next meeting, stop by their desk, grab a coffee, etc. in between meetings.
        Having a 30 min meeting be effectively 20 minutes long has also helped everyone stay focused and prevented derailing. Same deal when a one hour meeting becomes 45 minutes.
        We also have a policy of not having a meeting if there could just be an email chain or a conversation in Slack instead.
        All of this makes way more sense to me than fining people.

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Nope. It’s totally unacceptable. II’m fairly senior in a technical track and there are times I’m late to meetings because of an emergency. I DARE you to fine me for being late when a production line was down.

    11. DCGirl*

      Totally not normal. I worked at a place where the last to the meeting had to take the minutes, and that encouraged punctuality, but fines are ridiculous.

  27. Susan*

    Normal or not normal: Annual performance review is tied to salary raise, but the raise is calculated by higher-up management, and the managers actually conducting the performance reviews have no information about the raises. If my manager tells the higher-up people that I’m doing an excellent job, my raise might be at the higher end of the range the higher-up people have already planned for salary raises, but there is no obvious opportunity for me to negotiate directly or discuss actual sums.

    1. Wearing Many Hats*

      Normal. Budgets are often set in stone and depending on your org structure, your manager may not have any say in them.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      As far as I can tell, pretty normal in large companies with lots of structure/process/standardization around compensation.

      (It’s kind of unsatisfying, but knowing my own (lack of) negotiation skill, I recognize I’m probably better off in the long run)

    3. bdg*

      That sounds normal for me. My performance review is conducted with my supervisor, who goes to bat for me with her manager, who goes to bat for me with her director, who goes to bat for me with the other directors. The only input I get is at step 1, when I brag about what I’ve done to my supervisor.

      I’m at a fairly large and very structured company.

    4. JHunz*

      I don’t think that’s particularly unusual. Not all levels of management will always know how much money is in the budget for raises – and it sounds like your review does tie into how much of a raise you get, which is the important part.

    5. Long Time Lurker*

      This is pretty much how it’s done in my company. The manager giving the review isn’t always asked about the salary increase- while the two are supposed to be linked, that’s not always how that plays out in reality.

      That said, it’s not uncommon for employees in my company to request mid-year bumps based on performance. It may not be an obvious opening but that doesn’t mean you can’t make it happen.

    6. Natalie*

      This is super normal for annual increases, in my experience, because to a large extent they are just cost of living / available budget space related. An actual raise for a promotion or change in responsibility would be different IMO.

    7. Juniantara*

      This seems pretty normal at a larger, more structured company. Normally the raise pool is set at 3% or COLA, and the raises are spread out by senior management. If you are looking for a more substantial raise, normally you and your boss have to justify a title/grade change which doesn’t necessarily have to be done at raise time.

    9. Sarah N*

      I think this is very normal in big companies with a lot of bureaucracy. The only time I would have an opportunity to directly negotiate my salary with someone would be if I had a really great outside job offer and were threatening to leave/asking them to match it.

    11. Anonymous Poster*

      Normal in some industries and at some companies. It really varies: for example, at a large company I worked at managers were given a pool of money to distribute for raises and could divvy up as they chose and could back by preference evals. At another companies that was much smaller, the CEO personally aligned raises based on performance and other factors. I simply wasn’t aware of it all, but it all seemed above board to me. She also didn’t ever tell us what our raises were, but we’d end up seeing it later on.

      So I suppose, it can really vary.

    12. Swingline*

      I think this one is “it depends.” I work for a non-profit and this is close to how it works here for annual raises. Our annual raises are not a negotiation — an excellent performance review will likely put the raise at the higher end of the raise as you describe. Employees can and do negotiate for raises at other times, separate from the annual raise, and usually involve evolving job duties and performance. There’s no set schedule for negotiated raises, but it would be dramatically outside the norm if an individual sought one more than once every five years or so. Of course, actual promotions that come with raises would be different — a person could be promoted every year and receive a raise each time.

    13. BurnOutCandidate*

      Normal. I have had to do reviews on my employees without knowing whether or not I would be able to give them raises. And I’ve had reviews with my supervisor where he’s been honest about not knowing whether or not he’ll be able to give a raise. One year, upper management decided not to give out raises (due to the 2008-9 market crash) and skipped reviews altogether. Last year, we went through reviews and upper management announced about a month later there would be no raises.

    16. NotAnotherManager!*

      I’ll say normal on the calculation but not normal on no avenue for discussion of actual sums or negotiation. *I* can’t personally approve any raise I want for an employee, but I can make the case directly to HR and the employee can also appeal to HR.

      I have also worked in a system where I get a pool of money (let’s say 10% of salaries) to allot for salaries and bonuses. I can allot that pool across the board 5% raises/5% bonuses or 3% raises/7% bonuses or I can apportion increases and bonuses based on annual performance (which I prefer to do) – either is still going to be vetted by HR for discrimination and market.

      I’ve also worked in really overly structured systems where administration sets a rating = increase percentage system (e.g., “meets expectations” was a 2.5% raise), which can be grossly unfair if some managers are easier/harder graders than others. (That system also typically did not adjust for market, so some people would end up over/underpaid with no adjustment mechanism.)

    17. Djuna*

      Normal. Our reviews are done before our managers have dollar values to set against them.
      Reviews are done before end of fiscal and the pool for raises and bonuses is allocated early in the new FY.
      We have a review conversation in April, and a bonus/raise conversation in May.
      For top performers there may also be a mid-year raise, and there are discretionary bonus options outside of that too.

      If you have a good manager, you really shouldn’t need to negotiate because they should be paying market rate or above (I know my company researches that) to retain good people.

    18. Kate*

      Completely normal. I work in HR and the merit matrix (which is what is used to calculate the raise amount- so if you get between a 3 and a 3.5 on your review, you might get a 4% raise, if you get a 3.5 to 4, you might get a 4.5% raise, etc) is done based on the budgeted amount for raises, which the managers don’t have access to. An annual performance review structure usually means that a lot of people are getting raises at the same time and there needs to be some framework in place to control how the funds are disbursed.

    19. Anonalyst*

      Normal for my Fortune 100 employer. Salary increases are set by HR for each employee based on performance-based criteria, and there is no negotiation. The average for my team for the past several years has been about 2%. Some employees might receive a 5% increase, others receive no increase at all.

    20. Argh!*

      That’s the situation where I work. What’s even worse is that the money comes from the same pool, so if your manager gives you a crappy rating there’s more left for them.

  28. Software Developer*

    I was wondering what normal boundaries are for using people’s photos at work? I’ve learned to accept that I might end up in candid photos from work/school events and these photos may be posted somewhere, but I recently had an experience where I’m not sure if a boundary was crossed. I was required to participate in a group presentation as a part of new hire program and the coordinator introduced each group with a slide of their photos. However, in addition to taking people’s photos from our internal database, they also used slack profile photos, linked in photos, and candid photos from a previous event. I was one of the people whose photo was just a candid photo (that I had no idea was being taken and hadn’t seen before) that I didn’t think looked professional or good. I was really upset, but other new hires i talked to didn’t seem to think it was a big deal, so I was wondering what people with more experience think. (I know this isn’t a horrible abuse of power, I just want to know if this is something I need to adjust my expectations about.)

    1. Four lights*

      I agree it was weird they did it that way. It’s normal for people to be self conscious about how they look in pictures, and it would have been better to arrange something if they needed more photos of people. Unfortunately some people just don’t think that hard.

    2. booksnbooks*

      I wouldn’t think it was a big deal, to be honest. I’ve worked for a company that regularly had HR wandering around taking pictures to use in those types of things.

      1. Software Developer*

        Wow that sounds stressful to me, but maybe that means I’m just more camera shy than most people.

        1. booksnbooks*

          I always figured if I made a big deal about it more people would actually notice any pictures of me and how I looked in them. Otherwise no one except me would likely be paying any attention.

          1. Software Developer*

            Yeah I learned as a kid that if you try to avoid candid pictures, even if you think you’re being subtle about it, it just makes the photographer try even harder to get you in pictures.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Wow. My jaw just hit the floor. I’ve been working 30 years and never had had to fear ‘random pictures!’

        I did work for a small non-profit where my picture was taken while we were working on projects / in the field, but the photographer / company made sure we knew that was going to happen.

    3. Wearing Many Hats*

      Pretty normal. But it is also normal for you to ask if people not use candid photos of you. It shouldn’t be a big deal to use a headshot, so long as you don’t make it into anything more.

      1. Software Developer*

        I guess this is the reason I don’t have a headshot in the internal database, people do seem to not think much about using those. I didn’t realize just zooming in on a candid photo was an option though, otherwise I would’ve requested to just provide a picture of myself.

    5. Reba*

      I don’t think it crosses a boundary, but I too would be annoyed and embarrassed! I’m weird about my picture!

      I think you could contact whoever it is and say, in future, if you need a picture of me, please just ask! (Of course, then you need to have an acceptable picture handy you can provide.) You can frame it with the tone of “this is a weird quirk I have” as Alison often recommends.

    6. WellRed*

      I think this is normal, except for going to someone’s LI profile and taking the photo (if I am understanding correctly). They should only be using the photos they have on hand or asking you directly.

    7. Parenthetically*

      This strikes me as SUPER NOT OKAY, maybe because I work in education, and we required active, biannual photo releases for all students and had very strict policies about where we were allowed to post class photos. I know it doesn’t quite reach that level, but I think it’s worth asking about or mentioning: “Hey, I’m sure I’m not the only one who isn’t really comfortable with having their photos used in company presentations or on company media without having a heads-up about it, and I got a little freaked out to see photos pulled from my LinkedIn and Slack, and an unflattering candid from the summer picnic, in the last onboarding presentation! Is there a way to notify people about this, or at least do some kind of general FYI?”

    8. Jess*

      It would be worth taking a look at all the fine print you signed when you got hired, to see if you gave your employer a blanket permission without realizing it, but since they used LinkedIn and Slack photos, I’m guessing this was done by someone who wasn’t paying attention to boundaries or legality (it’s not legal for them to use someone’s LinkedIn etc photo without permission, because they don’t have the copyright).

      In my experience, what’s normal is that some people are concerned about photos of them being taken/used (whether due to safety, vanity, or other reasons), some people don’t give it much thought either way, some people are opportunists who will take/use whatever photos they can without thinking twice, and the first group are often poo-pooed and dismissed by the last group when they speak up.

      And, I think the safety concerns are only growing over time, while the culture’s expectations of privacy are only being eroded, so I hope people like you will keep speaking up.

      1. I Took A Mint*

        Agreed. IME it’s normal to have photos taken by/at the company (or otherwise provided to the company by the employee) to be used internally, even externally in company-produced PR materials, etc.

        It’s not normal for the company to scour the internet and use any photo they found of you on Linked In or Facebook. And if the photo is going externally (magazine, etc.) then they should let you know if you will be included.

        I think you’re perfectly justified to ask that they only use photos the company has the rights to, and that they swap your photo for one you’re happier with.

    9. quirkypants*

      Probably depends on the industry… I have worked some places where this was normal. These were digital marketing agenies. They were trying to be “cool” and would probably jump all over a candid shot trying to show off how FUN and NON-PROFESSIONAL and HIP we are.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        The heck with the industry — this depends on your local laws. My understanding (as an American with a web-adjacent profession) is that European Union privacy laws would be unhappy with this. It might be arguably legal if the images stayed totally in-company or if you signed an agreement about photo use as part of your employment contract.
        If you sre in the EU and signed nothing and it went beyond one event, it could be a legal liability for your new employer.

  29. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know about normal, but am I being too picky when I say that the idea of doing my job like this for even one more year gives me an intense feeling of exhaustion? Like, I get that not everyone can or should have their passion as a job and some people just work for money and that’s probably me. But I feel like my job is meaningless and I can hardly motivate myself to do most of it anymore because whether I do or don’t, nobody cares. You’d think that would be OK because I’m pretty well paid, but am I off base for wishing I could do something that mattered to someone? I’m starting to have an existential crisis over here and I don’t know if I’m just being ridiculous.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Normal. Some days I’d like to use my powers for the public good again. But then the opportunity schedules me an interview with a 3 day notice. Then they neglect to tell me that all of the parking around the building is restricted. So I go, get frustrated, have a less than satisfying interview, and leave knowing that I will probably not work for the greater good again. Then I smile at my bank account on payday and think, well at least I’ll be able to retire early.

    2. Colette*

      Meaningless in what way? Do you understand how what you do helps the business? Do you understand what the business contributes to society?

      For example, in a previous job I worked as customer service for a company that makes software used by professionals and dedicated amateurs, and I could focus on the way my job made life better for those people even when I was dealing with routine issues.

      I absolutely think you should be doing something you feel matters, I just wonder if you’re defining what matters too narrowly.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I do a lot of paperwork so that we keep a certification that makes it a bit easier to get work. But if we lost it, wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

        1. Colette*

          Does your company do bonuses or raises above the cost of living? Making it easier to get work will help make it more likely that they’ll do that kind of thing.

          If you didn’t do the paperwork, who would do it? Would they enjoy it?

          I mean, if there is no way for you to find the work rewarding, it’s probably time to start looking – but often there is value to work that might be tedious otherwise.

        2. I Took A Mint*

          I think it’s normal (read that article on “bull$h!t jobs”) but that doesn’t mean you can’t find peace with it by accepting that we all must work to survive in this post-capitalist society and at least your work lets you sit down indoors, or you could make that a priority change to a job where your work would have more impact.

    3. Kathleen_A*

      It’s perfectly normal to want a job that matters. It isn’t normal for a job to make you feel exhausted like this.

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Oops, sorry – I left off something important!

        It’s perfectly normal to want a job that matters, and it’s also perfectly normal to decide, “Well, that would be nice, but because of other factors (e.g., pay, hours, quality-of-life stuff), I’m going to stick this boring job for at least a while.”

        What isn’t normal is for a job to make you feel exhausted like this.

    4. Memily*

      Eh, I think this is not uncommon. But I’d start either looking for another job or trying to find that feeling outside of work–volunteer or something. Or both. I can’t tell you if you’re being unreasonable without knowing more about your actual situation. Sometimes people (especially people right out of school) are unreasonable, sometimes they’re not.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Normal, but I’d say it’s something that you can evaluate further.

      I always said that I wanted to have a job where I helped people and made a difference. Well, after years of working customer facing positions and realizing that the level of interpersonal communication that was required was having an incredibly negative impact on my mental health, I recalibrated my notion of what “helping people” meant.

      My job now doesn’t have any contact with the population our org serves, however, I am doing work behind the scenes that is vital to the health & wellness of the org as a whole and the population we serve. It was kind of a light bulb moment for me to realize that indirectly helping people was a far better option for me than directly trying to help.

    6. Overeducated*

      Normal but not inevitable. Lots of jobs are like that, lots are not. Maybe you need something new.

    7. Jess*

      You are not off base. The question is whether you need a change in job, a change in perspective, or a change in your life outside the job.

      Humans need meaning in their lives, and that can come from a lot of different places. For some people, “this is how I provide for my family” can be motivation and purpose for the worst of jobs. For some, the stability or structure of a particular job supports them to pursue a passion in the off hours. For some, the meaning comes from the work itself, or from the mission of the larger organization.

      What *can* you do that matters to someone, and where do you want to do it? Can your work or income support that in some way, even if it’s just keeping the roof over your head while you do that thing, or letting you have a few hours off a week to volunteer? Or might it be time to search for work that includes that element more intrinsically?

    8. marshu*

      Common but not necessarily normal, and certainly not something you should force yourself to put up with if you’d rather find a different job.

      But before you start looking, I’d think about what, specifically, meaningful means to you. Ive has jobs where it was literally life or death—if I didn’t show up or did my job poorly, people would die painfully. Some people thrive with that kind of expectation, but it wasn’t for me. My current job, which I prefer, doesn’t do much to make the world at large a better place, and nothing collapses if I have to take a day of unplanned PTO, but when I do my job well it definitely makes life better for my coworkers. That’s my jam – it might or might not be yours.

      Think of some times in the past where you’ve felt like your effort was meaningful. Doesn’t have to be paid work, it could be cleaning your kitchen, or arranging a bachelorette party, anything where you finished and felt proud of yourself and like what you did mattered. Think about what you had in those times that you don’t have in your current job. That will help guide you toward what you might want to change.

    9. ENFP in Texas*

      You’re not being ridiculous, and I think what you’re feeling is pretty common and normal. I’ve been having similar feelings the past year or so – but I’ve found they are worse when I’m in a project that I seriously dislike, because I’m dreading coming in to work. If there’s an opportunity to ask your boss or manager for some additional duties or even just a change of assignment for a while, maybe that will help?

    10. atalanta0jess*

      You are not being ridiculous. You spend so much of your life at work. It is ok to want that to be meaningful, important time.

  30. Notinstafamous*

    Big4 consulting / big law situation. How do you manage feeling uderwater and figuring out whether it’s because your situation sucks or because its normal for a junior? I’m three years in and am getting lots of new files and responsibilities and work… too much of it! I feel swamped and stressed and I’m missing things and not doing the work to the level I want to be. We have two senior partners, me, and an intern, because in the last 6 months three seniors (5 years, 7, years, and 9 years in) have all quit. We have no plans to hire new senior staff. I’m being asked to take over their files. I’m billing between 220-250 a month and have been since October. Normal ?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      They’re understaffed and you’re overworked. Those hours equate to 2600+ annual billable, which is not sustainable. You will burn out. However, those type of environments tend to try to squeeze every drop of work from their staff, so its not uncommon.

    2. Aunt Piddy*

      Normal for big law but it sucks =/ I burned out after four years.

      I’d request a team meeting to prioritize cases. If you aren’t keeping a spreadsheet, start. It will save your life. Put case name, last action taken, current status, and next steps (with dates). Then ask the seniors which ones should take priority. Send them emails confirming the discussions and the next steps that were decided.

      This sort of atmosphere BREEDS bar complaints and you want evidence you did your best.

    3. Notinstafamous*

      Thanks! I’ve been struggling because when I talk about case loads or prioritizing I get a bit of “being a junior is hard, we’ve all been there, it was hard when I was a junior too so don’t be a snowflake” and I’m wondering if I’m cut out for this! But I really love the work itself and in general find it super interesting. I just want less of it.

    4. Bloodsucker*

      I’m a paralegal that worked in Big Law for many years. As crazy as it sounds, 3000 billable hours a year is on the high scale normal, particularly for a younger associate, but still normal. If they don’t want to hire more senior attorneys, try and get them to hire you some senior support staff.

    5. Big4Senior Manager*

      Big 4 Consulting Senior Manager here. I would tend to believe that this is combination of “growing pains” on your side and an unreasonable set-up in terms of staffing with your employer. I see this with my staff a lot when people start working towards a manager/senior position, so somewhere between 3 and 4 years in. The work gets more complex, you are expected to be more proactive, delegate to interns or juniors and take on more work overall. It was tough for me, I had to learn to adjust the way I was handling work and it’s very normal. However, that being said, having three seniors quit, not hiring senior staff and expecting you to handle cases for two senior partners is, at least in my experience with Big 4 Consulting, not a sustainable set-up and will lead to dropping the ball eventually and/or burn-out on your side.

      1. Notinstafamous*

        Big4SeniorManager… thank you very much. That’s very helpful framing and really helped me figure out what’s going on.

  31. fawn*

    Is it normal for office staff to know when an operative is going to be fired days before they are alerted? we are a small team of 12 operatives who work on sites and 3 office staff and then my manager who informs us three office staff when one of the operatives is going to be fired, sometimes a week before HR comes down to formally advise them

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It happens, but I consider it bad management practice. It creates/can create a very weird dynamic.

    2. Cake Wad*

      Sometimes, especially if those office staff are in HR, payroll, or IT (the latter so they can be ready to shut off accounts).

        1. LJay*

          I could see it if any of you are responsible for scheduling the operatives in any way, so the person scheduling has a heads up that beginning with jobs for next week they shouldn’t schedule GoingToBeFired guy anymore so they don’t have to scramble for coverage after.

          And they may figure that with only 3 of you in the office, having you all know is less awkward than only one of you knowing (or only one of you not knowing).

          Ideally, though, I think once they know they’re going to fire someone and are at the point of notifying people they should just fire them and get it over with unless there are some circumstances that make that impossible.

    3. ExcelJedi*

      It can be if it’s a need-to-know thing. Often, security, IT, an office manager and maybe some others in charge of managing software privileges need to be warned so they can cut off access when the person is being let go.

      But if there’s no reason for people to know early, it’s not normal to bring some staff randomly into the leadership conversation.

    4. StressedButOkay*

      Oh, ugh, that’s a terrible practice! I’ve never worked in an office that told everyone else about a firing before the person being let go. I don’t think that’s normal!

    5. Murphy*

      Speaking from my one firing experience, at least the other person on my team knew. I’m not sure if it was more widely known.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      When I worked the front desk, I was given a heads up about an employee being fired because they wanted me to try and keep the lobby clear so she didn’t have to walk out through a bunch of people. Because of the nature of the work, we had people in and out of the office all the time and they’d often stop to chat with me, so it was good that I knew ahead of time.

    7. Manana*

      If your job is to receive confidential HR info and make arrangements for transitioning staff then I would say normal. Otherwise that’s not normal, your manager should really not be sharing that info. Ultimately she is setting herself up if it comes out that she is sharing sensitive info from higher level meetings to her staff.

    8. c56*

      Had a boss that did this once. While the sales guy was out the room, announced to everyone he was going to be fired at the end of the day. It was a tiny company (5 or so people) and realistically there was only one other person who needed to know, and did know before the rest of us. The rest of the day was super awkward. I’ll never understand why he didn’t just send an email at the end of the day.

  32. Washi*

    I work in a social work capacity and have weekly supervision. My job involves having a certain amount of contact with my clients weekly/quarterly/yearly, etc. I have never, in a year of this job, even been asked if I am meeting these goals. As far as I know, no one has ever checked my work. I have a tracker I keep for myself, so I know I’m keeping up, but having taken over clients from other workers, I know several of my coworkers are seriously slacking, and there is absolutely no accountability.

    Is this normal in this field? This is my first job as a social worker and it seems nuts to expect that people will voluntarily admit to being behind on their work.

    1. ursula*

      Kind of normal (but deeply problematic). I had this experience at both a community agency and at a non-profit. In both cases it turned out some staff had been severely neglecting their work/clients and there were consequences for the clients and other staff who had to help clean it up.

    2. T Ferguson*

      I’d say it depends how those were presented. Were you told they were goals you’d be held to in some way, or could it be that they’re designed as more of a “self calibration” tool that you can use to know if you’re on track? I can see how that would be valuable for an employee getting only weekly supervision, so they know if their performance is in line with expectations or not.

    3. AnonyNurse*

      Typical/normal, but not ok. That you’re actually getting weekly supervision is a good thing – they aren’t just doing lip service to that, too. Keep documenting and managing your caseload. Eventually something bad will happen, there won’t be documentation, and heads will roll. It’s a crappy way to manage things but it happens throughout the direct service world.

      1. Washi*

        Ugh, I was hoping this was not normal…is there any way to screen for this in future jobs? It’s kind of demotivating that I’m working really hard for my clients and some of my coworkers are playing computer games and taking long lunches with no consequences.

    4. School Psych*

      I work in a school setting, so I am not sure how common this is for non-profit or community agencies, but it would not be normal for SW or other mental health professionals in my setting. We keep logs of who we see and when and our supervisors periodically look at them. We’re required to submit logs to an online system, so the district can get medicaid reimbursements for student’s who qualify. It seems like your agency could potentially be losing out on insurance reimbursements or other funds because your colleagues aren’t accurately tracking/documenting who they see and sometimes aren’t seeing clients when they are supposed to. If you’re getting weekly supervision as part of working towards a higher level SW license, your supervisor is going to be signing off at some point that you’ve met the direct service requirements to sit for your licensing exam. They shouldn’t be signing off on this without monitoring that what you’re reporting is accurate. In the settings I worked in supervisors also used the logs we kept to make staffing decisions. If you were consistently having trouble meeting your minutes or had logs that had a higher caseload than was consistent with best practice that was used as justification for hiring more staff and was also useful to supervisors in writing grants to obtain more mental health staff.

    5. atalanta0jess*

      I think it’s fairly normal, and probably depends on how your agency is doing financially/how much contact hours impact the financials. If you’re in a program that is not paid based on contact hours, it makes sense to me that they’d have goals but not place much emphasis on them. If the agency is financially fine, likewise. If money is tight, as it often is, and money is directly tied to productive time, you’re likely to see much more pressure.

    6. jengatx*

      The social work agencies I have worked in we’re always subject to rigorous audits (funded by state or local government) so supervisors would check to make sure we were in track with our goals and deliverables. Maybe it depends on your funder? But I think screening for that in future jobs you apply for would be important- like: how do you track outcomes for the program? What deliverables would I be expected to meet and how is this tracked? Etc

    7. nora*

      Hello, social worker here. This is normal but very bad, especially if your funding is grant-based. Someone has to know you’re meeting your targets so your job will exist next fiscal year. Start reporting your data during supervision! Don’t wait for them to ask since clearly they won’t.

  33. Works in IT*

    I’m reasonably sure this is definitely normal in some areas since I’ve seen articles that it’s the norm in the media field, but what about IT?

    I am a contractor with my organization. I am technically employed by a contracting agency which is paid by the place where I work. I have to send the contracting agency time sheets every week to get paid. The contracting agency’s benefits package is so expensive that I (and other contractors with this agency) choose to not take the benefits package because the pay cut is so severe. I get no paid time off, and work 40 hours a week. I do get to choose which hours I work, within a limit of I can’t work outside 8 am to 6 pm, Monday through Friday. I am technically on a contract to hire plan, but will not be hired until they can create a position for me, and my contract is up for renewal every few months courtesy of they keep renewing it for short periods of time because they want to hire me.

    How common is this within IT specifically? If I start job hunting after I’ve been here another year (I want to stay in this position at least two years), should I expect another, similar, somehow legal but depressing situation, or is my place an exception in terms of how it hires for its IT department?

      1. AnOh*

        This sounds fairly normal, as I work on the administrative side of a contracting agency. I would say 60% of our contractor workforce is in a similar position (contract to hire, contract renewal every few months, no pto) BUT this is mainly because these contractors are paid hourly so their pay and ability to work for us is solely dependent on what the client will pay us for their work. The other part of our workforce is paid salary, receives pto and typically moves from client to client. The difference is that the hourly contract to contract workers are looking to be hired in full time at our clients eventually while the salary contractors wish to remain with our agency longer term so we’re able to invest in them more since we can “get more use” out of them, if that makes sense.

    2. Anax*

      Normal but VERY much not universal. Contracting agencies in IT can be really predatory – a lot of the ones I’ve seen in the US are deliberately seeking out foreign nationals who are desperate for a job and not very familiar with US employment laws and best practices.

      When you’re applying for your next job, try for an FTE position in government or with a fairly large, “boring” company (like, a bank or insurance company, rather than a really prestigious IT place like Microsoft or Google). Those organizations tend to prioritize benefits and work-life balance – not always, but your odds are better.

      1. Works in IT*

        Lol. For my position working at a bank would be one of the most exciting possibilities imaginable.

        1. Anax*

          Lol, that’s fair. As long as you don’t have to work with COBOL. I’ve never had to touch it myself, but oh, the horror stories from old mainframe folks.

          A lot of younger folks are really drawn in by the prestige of the big-name IT companies, in my experience, and they’re often not a good experience for people. Epic, in health care, for instance, has a reputation for working folks to the bone and burning them out in a year or two.

          1. AlwaysAnOutlier*

            I dunno. If I actually remembered the COBOL I learned 30 years ago I could be making a fortune now because there are so few people that know it and I could name my price. :)
            But to the letter writer: yes, your situation is common in IT, but undesirable IMHO. Why not start looking for something else now – at least see what’s out there? There are bazillions of unfilled full-time IT jobs – with benefits! – including many that would allow you to work remotely.
            There’d be no ding to you if you leave a contract job after a year, since that’s a fairly typical period of time for a contract. Depending on your situation, it might even be less desirable to stay in a contract longer than that. I don’t see any obligation/reason to stay unless you think more experience in your specific area of expertise in the job you have now will help you negotiate a better deal after that.

            1. Anax*

              I mean, yes, but then you’d have to WRITE COBOL. I grew up being told “just say no to COBOL” with all the fervency of the war on drugs, lol.

              But yeah, it’s worth remembering that most code is legacy code, and legacy skills can be super valuable.

              OP: This might not be relevant to you, but having just finished an IT job search, I would also suggest brushing up on your Java, SQL, .NET, and/or Node.js if any of them are relevant to your interests. Those are the techs I’ve seen most used lately, though there’s some regional differences – I’m on the west coast near Silicon Valley.

      2. CyberNed*

        FTE in colleges and universities may be a good place, too. They often hire at lower salaries and there’s a different world of frustrations to deal with, but if you’re looking for consistent, stable work, you have to make some sacrifices. Try to aim for small non-profit colleges. Community/Technical schools tend to treat their staff poorly and big schools tend to forget the individual for the greater community. Also, it’s always nice working at a school because they tend to be generous with the professional development (re:continuing education).

    3. PDXtechrecruiter*

      Yep unfortunately normal. I work for a tech staffing agency and this is not an uncommon complaint. The unfortunate truth about contracting. Lack of (or high cost) benefits and PTO is a huge detractor for many job seekers. But, there are a lot of positives like getting to set your own hours, contractors are usually paid at a higher rate, and the flexibility of contract work (hopefully) allows you to select projects you have actual interest in. I am hoping you get converted to fte asap!!

    5. Sally*

      Yeah, this is not great, but is is very common in this field. I’m in IT/tech support, and the sys admin at the last company I worked for was in a similar position (I was not, but that’s likely because I moved to IT from a different department). And I’ve heard plenty of stories about it happening to others as well.

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Contract to hire is stupidly common in IT. There are some variations, though.

      Variation 1: the company who eventually hired me starts almost everyone as contract to hire. But they only do this when there’s an actual vacancy, and the expectation is that you’ll be converted by the end of your 6 month contract. (We’ve had a few people who didn’t work out, so they weren’t converted. When that happens, we start the whole thing over from the beginning.)

      Variation 2: A previous job, contract to hire, once I’d worked for the contracting company for a year, I got paid time off. (The rest of the benefits package was still too expensive to take.)

      Variation 3: Same company as two, contract to hire, except the manager never made any attempt to convert me to a permanent employee. It was a helpdesk, we always had openings, and most of them were direct hires, so I know they had the headcount. I put most of that on the manager where I worked, and a little with the contracting company.

      I’d definitely ask about the conversion rate if you interview for contract to hire positions in the future.

    7. Wendy Darling*

      Super gross but totally normal. :( I’ve worked these jobs and get solicited to apply for them ALL the TIME.

      If you’re in a specific area where lots of agencies are competing to place you in jobs, keep your ear to the ground for which agencies have the least bad benefits and try to get with them when/if you change jobs.

    8. Not So Little My*

      Very common. I’ve been in software for 20 years and about 1/2 of my jobs have been contract-to-hire. I love the one I’m at right now and have discussed going permanent several times, and have gotten good feedback, but there’s a lot of “we have to wait until there’s headcount in the budget” so I’m still waiting for certainty. If your agency really thinks highly of you try to negotiate an increase in your hourly rate and then consider giving yourself 2 weeks of vacation a year. Also, I’m aware that I’m privileged that my spouse’s company has one of the best health insurance plans in the area and since we are legally married I can participate in it.

  34. Murphy*

    Is it normal to not discuss your performance evaluations with your boss?

    The first year I was with my boss, he’d only been my boss for a month and had to rely on my previous boss to even fill it out. The second year, I was on maternity leave. The third year I kept asking him about it at our 1-on-1 meetings and he said he’d already written it and was waiting for approval from grandboss to show it to me. Then, he unceremoniously came by my desk and handed it to me to look over and sign. No discussion.

    They’ve always been good, but I wouldn’t mind some discussion about my role in general. Our performance evaluation period ends at the end of the month, and I’m wondering if I should be proactive about asking him if we could talk about it. Like at all.

    1. Long Time Lurker*

      Honestly this varies by the boss. I’ve had managers who never met me about my review, but my day to day contact with them about my performance and goals was such that I didn’t need it- I knew where I stood. Then I’ve had managers who have seemed to go out of their way not to give me feedback.

    2. Bopper*

      At my company they are required to discuss it with you.

      I would be proactive…I would just say I would like to discuss the review and talk about areas for growth.

    3. Lisa B*

      Not normal, but comes up more often than it should. Normal for bad managers, not normal for good managers!

    4. AnotherJill*

      It’s really dependent on the company and manager, but this is a normal variation. Most of the places I worked I had a review dropped and off and told to let them know if I wanted to discuss anything. Other places, a meeting was scheduled. But its totally normal and fine to ask for a meeting.

    5. Pingüina*

      No, that’s odd. I don’t mean “odd” in the sense of it never happens but I do mean “odd” in the sense of you deserve to have a manager who at least sometimes attends to your growth.

      I am a manager and here’s my flow with annual performance evals:
      1. I ask staff to tell me about their year. (This is a guided reflection on their performance targets but also includes space to comment more broadly about their goals for the next year.)
      2. I draft a performance review.
      3. I schedule a meeting where I talk through the draft. I make sure to ask about anything controversial to make sure I have all the facts. (This might happen is a staff member claims to meet their goal and I’m pretty sure they haven’t.)
      4. I then finalize the review and send it to the staff member.

      In the process, I learn so much about how the staff member views themselves and what dreams and goals they have. This helps me allocate projects and stretch opportunities, advocate for promotions, and address lack of self-awareness when it comes up.

      When I first became a manager, I relied HEAVILY on Allison to understand what a manager even was. I like this post and it looks like your boss just isn’t living up to best practice: https://www.askamanager.org/2007/10/what-are-managers-responsible-for.html

      BTW: it’s really easy for managers to neglect folks who are swimming along, but you still deserve better.

      1. Murphy*

        Thanks for this. I definitely don’t think he’s very interested in managing in general, which is why it’s hard for me to know what’s normal.

      2. your favorite person*

        That’s almost exactly how I do my reviews as well. The only thing I add is that at 2b. is that it has to be approved by our management team. (small company of 35, management team has 5 people which includes my boss who approves my reviews to my direct reports). He/they sometimes make wording corrections or ‘tier’ suggestions.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      Whether it’s normal or not, it’s common. My boss has too many direct reports, he has no idea what I do or if I do it well.

    8. BookLady*

      Common, yes. Bad management, yes. You should definitely bring it up with him before he hands you a document to sign and ask if you can have a conversation about it. Maybe come up with 2-3 specific questions/topics you want to discuss so that he knows what to expect.

    9. LJay*

      At my company we’re required to get approval from our director before presenting them to the employee. I think it’s a way to ensure consistency across the board and avoid bias or abuse on the part of the managers.

      There can still be back and forth about it from there, and we definitely do discuss it with them.

      But there’s no discussion specifically about the performance evaluation before it happens. There are regular discussions and feedback about the items on the performance eval throughout the year since those are part of doing their job. But not, “Oh I’m going to give you an ‘exceeds’ in this but only a ‘satisfactory’ in this.”

  35. Mashed potato*

    I just need validation that even in a start up company, 1) dating between coworker’s or manager and coworker’s is probably not ok especially if it leads to favoritism in claiming overtime, 2) a coworker on your first day asking for you Facebook is a little too much (I have boundaries, LinkedIn is ok not fb), and 3) they have tendency to trust someone at work even if it’s kinda gossipy or bad mouthing bc they’re friends

    Also last year I have definitely declined going to my higher boss’s Halloween and Christmas party at his house bc I’m not your friend. But going to coworker’s house feels personal

    2. Aunt Piddy*

      Dating between manager and employee is definitely not okay.

      Everything else sounds fairly normal. If you don’t want to friend them, just say no. Refusing to go to a house party sounds unreasonably stringent and may hold you back professionally.

    3. Manana*

      2 and 3 are normal based on personal culture and highlight general universal differences between people all over, so I would say it’s very normal that you’ve encountered this at work and I would anticipate encountering weird personal boundaries forever. Number 1 is not a good idea, certainly not advised among successful adult professionals, but sadly common in many unregulated, poorly managed businesses. It is a pretty definitive red flag though, so a helpful gauge of other bs likely to come.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        A lot of startups will have holiday gatherings at exec houses, it’s normal.

        Startup relationships can be really weird – small groups, working together a lot, there’s no room to move them out of the mgmt chain, and a lot of people meet spouses through work. However, nine times out of ten, it’s predatory. A good manager who is attracted to a subordinate will not act on it.

    4. LKW*

      Boss’s have parties at their houses. This is what they do. Totally normal.

      Sleep over at boss’ house after work party. Not normal. Sleepover weekend retreat for work at Boss’ mountain cabin – kinda normal.

    5. Gumby*

      Dating between coworkers who are not in the same reporting line is, in my start up experience, pretty normal. One company that I worked at had something like 10-15% of the workforce end up married (so if the small company had 100 employees, 5 couples got married = 10 people = 10%). But: start up. Most of the company was the same age range, just out of college, and they spent lots of time together. The ‘not in the same reporting line’ is important though!

    6. TechWorker*

      I feel like if a manager is offering to host a party at their house that’s not in-itself inappropriate. I’ve been to two team parties that were at coworkers houses & neither was that weird!

    7. Confused*

      It depends. 1. not really ok in most contexts but there’s little to be done about it. 2. Again, context, most people will assume if they’re being friendly with someone that exchanging FB info is fine. It’s not like they asked you for your SSN. 3. Normal but using good judgment is better than taking someone at their word just b/c you’re friends.

    8. Anon this time*

      The dating part is not okay, and also not normal among organizations that operate professionally. That being said, small orgs/start ups are known for overly intimate cultures because they are less regulated.

      Everything else you are describing, again, sounds like unhealthy work culture but not necessarily uncommon in workplaces, particularly start ups. (Yes the Facebook thing is weird.)

      Bosses holding holiday parties at their house is actually the more normal thing of all the stuff you listed. Not Halloween, though. It’s normal for a boss/dept head to host the occasional FORMAL barbecue or dinner party. (aka NOT ragers with keg stands). However, it’s unusual to do this more than once a year. Good bosses do this to be congenial to their employees and treat them, but they undersand that employees have a life outside of their workplace and don’t want to spend all major holidays with them.

  36. Media Monkey*

    i get absolutely no feedback from my manager in between annual appraisals, even though I ask for it. When i do i get told everything is fine, and any other feedback is limited to additional work or items for my to-do list (actually is that bit normal – to get no feedback at all when it is requested regularly?).

    we do 360 appraisals here, done annually. as part of the process they ask for feedback from direct reports, other managers, co-workers and clients, where they normally would ask what you do well and what you could improve on. is it normal to have all of the “media monkey could improve upon…” held and counted against you in your rating if you didn’t know about the issues before? Assuming they are not serious “can’t do basic parts of her job/ is continually dropping the ball/ gross misconduct” type things?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It happens, but it’s an indication that your management is doing a bad job. You should be getting regular feedback, so if there’s an issue you know about it BEFORE the annual.

      1. Media Monkey*

        yeah, that was my feeling and i was totally blindsided by a below average review when i felt i had hit a lot of the key deliverables and objectives and i thought had shown progress towards the others (or else they were things that were outside my control – therefore were crappy objectives!)

    2. Rezia*

      I feel like this is “normal” in that it happens often, but it’s not a good thing. Could you set up a quarterly check in with your manager to see how things are going? I’m not sure how you’ve been asking for feedback – some managers will just say “yeah you’re fine” in the moment, but if you set up an actual meeting with them, they’ll think of things that they would have brought up in the annual review.

      1. Media Monkey*

        We have a weekly catch up where i bring him up to speed with what is going on across the team, new projects, any issues that he needs to know about (he appears to care very little but i make sure to let him know). about once a month in those meetings i ask if there is anything i’m not doing that i should be, anything that i should stop doing and never get anything back.

    3. Amethystmoon*

      Not normal. We do 1 on 1’s occasionally so if issues come up, either side can talk about them.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Alison has had posts on asking for more feedback, asking for more specific feedback. At least listen to the podcast “I want more feedback”. If you click search-this-site and type in feedback you’ll see it and others.

  37. Kanon*

    I’ve worked for all sorts of companies…large vs. small, startup vs. 80 years old, for- and non-profit…I’ve seen “normal” be all over the place. Two separate questions: How normal is it for companies to conduct annual or semiannual performance reviews to not tie raises to these reviews in any way? How normal is success in negotiating additional vacation days at hire?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’ve not seen such a disconnect between the formal eval process and compensation. There may be a lag, but it should factor in.

      Don’t know about the vacation days.

    2. Rey*

      Companies are all over the place about whether or not tie performance reviews and raises together, so definitely normal either way. And I think there’s still debate about what constitutes “best practices” in terms or tying it or not.

    3. T Ferguson*

      I’ve work for nearly a decade at a large-ish (1,000+ employees) company where reviews are nearly totally untethered from raises (reviews happen in December and annual COLA raises in the summer). The only way they’re roughly tied together is that your manager recommends where your annual raise should fall within that year’s standard range, and that recommendation is presumably tied to your manager’s opinion of your performance. It seems normal-ish.

      That being said, we’re undergoing a major overhaul with regards to morale/empowerment and a big part of that is tying raises more closely to evaluations as a motivational tool, so it may be “normal” but still not the best idea.

    4. The Cleaner*

      I was just in an HR meeting where the topic was whether to untether our annual performance reviews from annual raises. It seems like there are pros and cons to each system, it sounds like our leadership is leaning toward separating them. (Seeing comments above, it sounds like other companies are looking at shifting the other way, I feel like we’re going to keep cycling through this for eternity.)

    5. cmcinnyc*

      I worked for a woman who had pre-negotiated a pretty fabulous vacation policy for herself upfront. She was senior leadership, she was really well-known and well-regarded in the field, and she’d been recruited away from another top job to take that one. So if that describes you, definitely negotiate for more vacation. I would not be surprised if she had to compromise on her salary, though. I have no way of knowing.

    6. LKW*

      The only time I’ve seen the review process detached from raises is when the company isn’t giving out COLA or raises or bonuses but wants to make sure they are tracking performance for use later on in staffing.

      Negotiations for vacation requires too many variables for there to be any normal. How badly do they want the employee? How generous is the existing benefit and is what’s being requested excessive, a one time deal, etc.
      Too many possibilities.

    7. c56*

      Can’t really speak to how normal but my current company doesn’t tie it to raises/bonuses. The eval happens in Jan and raises/bonuses happen in April.

    8. quirkypants*

      I’ve often had good luck negotiating for vacation days, but typically only in cases where I am negotiating in lieu of salary. I.E. I’m being paid somewhere in the lower end of what’s considered a fair range OR when I worked with a non-profit that couldn’t compensate me in salary (but was fine to give me extra days).

      I would expect to be less successful in negotiating for vacation days if I was paid at the very high end of what I’m what I’m worth.

  38. Closet Introvert*

    I think this is less common in office jobs or jobs where you need to be on-call or are contacting/receiving contact from clients. It’s more common in jobs that are not desk-based where the employer may need to reach you during a shift.

  39. Roza*

    We’ve got a workplace clique situation, but I’m not sure if it’s something to legitimately be upset about, or just something I need thicker skin about. There’s a very close group of men on the team who hang out a lot together on the weekends and outside of work, constantly joke with each other on Slack, and give each other tons of public attention. I’m able to get the info I need from them to do my job, which makes me think maybe I should just get over it, but at the same time it does hurt to constantly try to be included in the jokes and chatter and just .not be, or to rarely get called out publicly like they are. They aren’t actively mean, and I think they like me reasonably well, I’m just not “one of the boys”, if that makes sense. I struggle a bit with confidence in leading technical work anyway, and feeling invisible/easily overlooked compounds it. At the same time, I’ve been promoted relatively quickly and don’t get the sense I’m suffering huge professional consequences from occasionally having my ideas misattributed and whatnot. Complicating matters is the fact that their manager is also part of the clique (and they all go on mountain biking vacations together…and mysteriously get promoted faster than anyone else, and get the choicest assignments…). I know the manager thing is inappropriate, but for just my colleagues…is it okay to be upset/frustrated by workplace cliques if they’re hurting my feelings and undermining my confidence but not actually impeding my work? The powers that be at the company have made a few attempts to shut it down, but the bros then get upset that the company is telling them who to be friends with, and they are all well-regarded, so the company dropped it out of fear that they would leave. But that kind of starts to feel like the company values their comfort over mine (and that of other female employees — everyone on the team who is not them have complained about how obnoxious they are). But then again…we can generally do our jobs despite the obnoxiousness. Thoughts?

    1. Roza*

      Also, argh, so many typos and grammatical errors. Apologies, this was written pre-coffee with half-formed thoughts.

      1. valentine*

        It’s a nakedly sexist men’s-only club. Gross. This is no different from doing business over golf at a course that bars women or or in a men’s locker room or helping the guys who covered for your drunk driving while refusing to shake hands with female colleagues because you’re pretending you don’t know what harassment is.

    2. Aunt Piddy*

      That’s super annoying and shouldn’t be the norm at all (especially with the manager joining in, ugh).

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I feel like you described a lot of my situation. It’s quite lonely and frustrating, and I have no solution. I just try to find validation elsewhere. And at least your higher-ups are aware of it?

    5. WellRed*

      Since there is a gender divide here it seems a bit more problematic for the company to ignore this. You may not feel you’ve suffered any adverse consequences yet, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen in the future. Do you have an HR department that might understand why this is problematic?

      1. Roza*

        In theory my company is sympathetic — there’s a lot of talk about D&I, we have implicit bias training for interviewing, on paper everything is great. In practice, well, mysteriously the white men move up fast and everyone else seems to quietly stall out and leave, but always for some explainable reason or other. HR has approved the special promotions and other things (typically promotions only happen at certain times), so I’m not super hopeful there. I’ve raised it to my manager and to a senior mentor-type person, whose responses have been that they’ll talk to bro manager about perceptions of favoritism (although nothing has changed in his behavior, so…) but also that I’ve had plenty of opportunities and I just need to be more thick-skinned and be a better advocate for myself if I want X or Y that the bros get.

        1. Roza*

          And maybe there is some truth to that. And I definitely think that (outside of the manager thing) people should be free to be better friends with some folks at work than others as long as they’re professional with everyone. And yet something seems off. It’s confusing.

        2. Binky*

          “In practice, well, mysteriously the white men move up fast and everyone else seems to quietly stall out and leave, but always for some explainable reason or other.”

          This is so, so common. Messed up, but common.

          The joint vacations and clique stuff is less common though.

    6. AnotherJill*

      The general cliquish-ness is normal in technical environments, although the manager participating is not. I knew someone who got more comfortable in a similar situation by participating in Toastmasters – the practice of speaking in a group made him more confident in general.

      I would look to see what you might do to gain more confidence – take some classes, talk to a counselor, whatever you think might work. Comfort in technical jobs comes when you know your subject well and can express yourself well, and some work in that direction can really help.

    7. Manana*

      This is a toughie because it does make you question whether it’s you or them! You said that they get promoted faster than anyone else but also that you got promoted rather quickly. Are there others outside the clique that have been promoted? You say they are given the choicest assignments, what happens when you ask for these types of assignments? Have you ever asked? It’s possible that they are getting certain things because they are asking for them and their personal relationships make them feel more confident in making the ask. As long as your requests and skills are being honored with equal weight, I think you can chalk it up to just having annoying but benign office bros and let it go, but if you’re advocating for yourself but being dismissed then that’s a big problem. Also, of your office is a “kudos culture” aka relies on staff to call out each other for good work then you would be well served getting the momentum going for non-clique members so that the praise is coming from more than one corner.

      1. Roza*

        Good questions and good suggestions re: being the kudos I want to see in the world. :) I’ve been trying to do more of that and this is good motivation.

        Re: whether people outside the clique get promoted, they do, but generally not as fast, and with more time having to prove yourself before you get the higher title/pay (whereas the bros have been promoted because they’re stepping into roles, as opposed to having to do the roles for six months to show they can). As to whether this is fair…it’s a tricky call. The bros are smart and good at what they do, and the official line is that they get special treatment because they are extra critical to the high-profile projects they’re on. If that’s the case, fine, but then someone should be able to tell me what I need to do to be seen as critical enough to have exceptions made for me, and no one can (I’ve asked both my manager and bro manager). Re: projects, I ask for things regularly and get them when I’m fairly aggressive about it. The bros don’t seem to have to do the same amount of internal lobbying that I do to get the same results (eg they say they want to do Teapot Design and get not only assigned to a project, but all sorts of informal support like being added to the company Teapot Design Guild/Demo, and called out as Teapot Designers so that other folks know to include them in discussions and stuff, and then praised for going outside of their comfort zone. Whereas if I ask for Teapot Design, I eventually get a project but none of the support, although I’m stubborn enough to eventually track down the people/resources I need and barge my way into meetings, and none of this extra work is ever really acknowledged. So, it’s not a problem I can’t solve, but it is something they typically don’t have to do). So, again, it ends up being a really borderline case. And as tech companies go, it’s really mild. But annoying.

    8. LKW*

      Frustrating and not good practice but very common. People are people. Some people are jerks. When the people who are jerks are in leadership position and anyone above them is detached, clueless or conflict averse (or also a jerk) this is what you get.

    9. Jules the 3rd*

      Normal, but sexist and not ok. The company is in danger of a lawsuit.

      You say it’s not affecting your work, but this clique gets promoted faster / choicest assignments. Outside of the sexist part, this is the #1 reason Alison gives for managers *not* being friends with their reports – it makes it too easy to play favorites.

      Unfortunately, you’re right that your company has prioritized these men over you (and the other women there). That means that if you complain, you will be the one ostracized, not them. From my experience, the practical ways to deal with that are
      1) Leave with another job, and make sure they know why or
      2) Push, professionally, for equal attention and opportunities, without complaining about their bias.

      If you want to stay there, the way to push is to talk directly to your manager about your promotion path and quality of your assignments. Say outright that you are interested in the next Teapot Design project that comes along, and folo with a summary email ‘As we discussed, I’m really interested…’. If you don’t get that one, ask for the next, and the next. Maybe even discuss upcoming opportunities with your grand boss, if you can get access, since your boss is biased.

      Between your assessment of the powers that be and the state of EEOC, the discrimination you’re facing probably won’t be fixable by complaining to the EEOC (unless there’s a documentable salary delta for similar jobs) or management; this boss and these bros suck and are not going to change.

  40. Market Researcher*

    My company delivers formal performance reviews as follows: my manager prints out the multi-page, formal written review, I go to my manager’s office at the time scheduled for the review, and I read the printed review in front of my manager (who typically just sits there and watches me until I’m done reading). Then we discuss what was written in the review. Is this normal? It always feels so awkward to read a fairly lengthy document while my manager watches me! I don’t have much to compare this to – my other employers before this one had no formal performance review processes at all.

    *My company (until recently) did formal reviews twice per year (it’s now once a year), and I’ve had four different managers in the past four years at the company, all of whom have delivered reviews in this way.

    1. Roza*

      The reading aloud part sounds very weird…is there a reason you can’t both read it in advance and simply discuss it in person?

    3. Juniantara*

      Really common. Companies that are slightly better let you read it a little in advance, but many managers had a single 2-hour training on conducting performance reviews if your company is well-organized.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      This can be very normal, because the evals aren’t always done quite on time, or I had a manager that was so swamped that he’d be doing evals the night before at home. But some companies have this as common practice, sometimes to avoid bickering about it, other times because they don’t want them leaking, and others because of privacy concerns sending it earlier.

      For context, I’ve always seen my eval for the first time in a meeting like this, and read it in front of my manager.

    5. Shark Whisperer*

      The reading it in front of the manager thing is definitely weird. I’ve worked at two places that have had formal reviews and I’ve always been given my review to read over before the the meeting to discuss it.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Normal. Ugh.
      I often get mine handed to me at 4:00 and then a foot tapping request to have me sign it before close of day (4:30) while boss is standing at my desk. Not even a conversation unless I specifically ask for it. Ugh. Ugh.

      Luckily, it’s usually just pro forma and pretty much the same as last time, although I do try to look to see if they’ve included the “extras” that I did since last time, to make sure that there’s at least a decent paper trail.
      When I do get time to read it AND discuss, I do a quick scan and try to say something that implies that I’m paying attention to my career and what they’re documenting. That’s pretty much as good as it gets.

      However … this is not the only time I’ll talk about career stuff with my supervisor. We do have other conversations at other times.

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      In my experience, super normal. This is essentially the way every performance review I’ve ever had has been done. Yes, I feel weird having someone stare at me while I read something, especially if it’s long. But… yeah. They don’t deliver the review to you ahead of time, so if you want to discuss it or want to ask questions you’re going to have to read it in the meeting.

      I used to kind of skim it because I felt rushed, but then I ended up feeling like I missed opportunities to ask questions. One thing I did start doing was skimming the “you’re great at these things” portions and spending more time reading the “you should work on xyz” portions because those are the things I would probably want to talk about. But if it’s tied to a raise and you plan on trying to negotiate or something like that then you really need to read the whole thing.

    8. RandomU...*

      This is pretty normal in my experience. Mostly I glance through mine when I see it for the first time, often in the meeting, but most times there’s not even a chance to read it.

      Here’s what typically happens… 30 min meeting scheduled. Sit down with boss and we walk through it together (meetings are generally virtual, so shared screen). Boss hits the highlights and goes over each section rating. We talk for a bit about the next year and where things are going. Then the document is released to me in the system for review. I go back and read it in detail, add additional comments if needed, and sign off.

      It’s how I do reviews with my staff as well. I always offer a follow up meeting if they want to talk after having a chance to sit down with the document. Nobody’s taken me up on it yet.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      That’s the way it is at my Fortune 50 company. We read it together then discuss. Not always the most helpful format, but at least we have a path to comment or object.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Fortune 500. Sigh…it seems like my phone needs an upgrade. Now that I’m watching for it I can see that the typos aren’t all mine.

  41. LiterallyPapyrus*

    My boss, the Executive Director of a nonprofit, has scheduled meetings with his leadership team in the next few weeks, to do individual check-ins on where we are as department heads with our portions of our Strategic Plan. These meetings are in advance of our big team meeting the week after these meetings. He also told us to think about “Where our organization will be in 10 years, and where you will be in 10 years. Even if it’s not here, tell me what you want to be doing in 10 years.” Is the “10 years in your personal life a normal question for us to answer? It seems like a weird way to get us to say if we’re planning on job hunting, and really, isn’t 10 years too long to expect employees to stay in almost any profession?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      He is phrasing it badly. I think what he is asking is what are your career aspirations. Do you see being a leader? Do you want to be an ED of a nonprofit, is your passion in volunteer coordination. He shouldn’t ask if it is with the same organization. I would frame my answer around where my passion lies-” I am passionate about Llama Advocacy and would love in the 5-10 years to be able to teach other people how to be Llama Advocates, I would love the opportunity to have more exposure to that area of our organization.”

      1. LiterallyPapyrus*

        Ohhh this makes much more sense and definitely I’ll handle my response in terms of what brings me joy in my daily work. Thank you!

    2. CmdrShepard4ever*

      I think bosses asking about personal life is somewhat normal. I think there tend to be 3 kinds of bosses who ask that question.
      1) Boss who does indeed want to see if you are planning on leaving a job and might try to replace you
      2) A boss who does genuinely care about your professional/personal life goals are and will try to help you achieve them in the ways that they can (this kind of boss is great, but they tend to be on the rarer side)
      3) A boss who does not really care about your professional/personal life goals but who thinks asking this question will make them seem like a good boss (similar to the boss that thinks they are open to criticism/feedback when they really are not)

      I can’t tell you what type your boss is, it depends on what you think of them overall in your other interactions with them.

      1. LiterallyPapyrus*

        Hm, I think he’s a mix of #2 and #3, in that he cares, but he cares more about appearing to be a good, dynamic Leader of all the Leadership Leads.

    3. LKW*

      Not really about job hunting – it’s more about where you want to take your career. Think about all the jobs that could exist if there was an organization that supported them. What do you think your organization could do if it could stretch in new directions? What would it take to get there? Could you lead that effort?

      I think that’s really what they are looking for and it’s not a bad conversation to have with employees.

      1. LiterallyPapyrus*

        This makes sense. In our current structure everyone he’s asking this question of is as high as they can go, unless they want to replace him as ED. But maybe with slight hierarchical tweaks our roles could take on new dimensions.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Totally normal, though most use a 5-year timeline. He’s not asking about your personal life, he’s asking about where you expect to be professionally.

      1. LiterallyPapyrus*

        This makes sense! Especially since the Strategic Plan we’re checking in on is 5 years.

    5. QED*

      Based on long-term strategic planning I’ve been part of, I think your boss is just asking a normal question in a weird way. It’s pretty normal to ask higher-level staff about their long-term career goals when making these plans–not in a “are you job-hunting” way, but more to see a) if the role they’re currently in aligns with these goals and b) how can those goals fit in with the organization’s long-term needs. It could result in shifting around responsibilities, promoting people, or, in the very least, discussing with each person what the trajectory of their role is. But if your boss hasn’t previously been weird about people leaving, then there’s no reason to think he’s expecting you to stay for ten years and will be angry if you don’t.

      1. LiterallyPapyrus*

        This is really good insight, thank you!! We have had a lot of turnover on our leadership in the time I’ve been here, so I think you’re right, he’s checking in to see how we’re aligning with our current roles and if some things might need to be shifted around.

      2. Blue*

        This is a good way of putting it! I think it can be a real opportunity, when done thoughtfully. In my last office, one of the first things our new director did was go around and talk to everyone on staff about their longer-term goals and interests. Our extremely flat organizational structure really needed a revamp, and he used those conversations to get ideas about what directions might work best and to identify who had interests in what areas. Based on what he heard, he created a number of opportunities for advancement and clearly had 1 or 2 specific people in mind for each new position. He did something similar among the leadership team and reshuffled responsibilities in ways that made more sense (both in general and for the specific person). On the whole, it was a really positive thing for the staff as individuals and for the office collectively.

  42. Geillis D*

    Public practice accountants in small offices, this one is for you.

    This is my third small public practice (CPA, left office #1 because of super low pay and zero professional growth, was let go of office #2 when the persona I was hired to replace came back). I chose office #3 for the laid-back atmosphere and the boss’s genuinely warm personality. They did warn me that “it gets busy in busy season…” I had no idea how busy. I’m the only CPA in the office outside of the boss. She and the rest of the staff work insanely long hours, to the tune of 12-14 hour days between February and April. No breaks, no weekends off. As the only CPA I’m expected to pound those corporate taxes with no time for quality control or checking my work. There are way too many clients for us to handle, I’m tackling twice as many files as my other jobs and feel like I am on my way to make a colossal mistake just because of exhaustion. During busy season people occasionally work until 2am. I worked overtime February/March/April in my other jobs but never to this degree, not even close.

    I’m on a one-year contract covering a maternity leave but have serious concerns about whether I’d like to continue there or find another office. April hasn’t even started yet and everyone is exhausted and grouchy already.

    1. anonpublicCPA*

      I didn’t find a question in your complaint – but my response is “buck up buttercup” public accounting, especially small firms, work HORRIBLE hours during that time. It’s how they keep the lights on the rest of the year. I would not expect the hours to get better.

      If this is not something sustainable for you, you feel you are underpaid, or the growth opportunity doesn’t met the demands of the job, I’d seek employment in an industry job where the hours are more stabilized.

      1. Geillis D*

        Fair enough.

        There are a lot of good things going on in this office, starting with a boss I actually respect and like a lot who seemingly likes and respects me and appreciates my work. I’ll do some more thinking on how to make this work for me.

    2. TaxAnon*

      Ooh, one I can answer! I’m a CPA in a small tax firm. My hours ramp up from 45/wk in mid-Feb to 65+ by mid-March. So that seems fairly normal to me. However, how a firm handles it is pretty key imo.

      Also, this tax season has been particularly brutal with all the new tax law changes – I’ve personally wasted probably 20 hours dealing with software issues and “did I fuck up, did the software fuck up, or is this how it is now?” quandries.

      Some things my firm does to make it less burdensome:

      -An efficiency committee that meets for several weeks leading up to tax season with people from every level, to find ways to lessen the load

      -Dinners every night, with enough food for leftovers for the next day’s lunch

      -Random snack/donuts/ice cream breaks

      -Guided stretch breaks midday 2x a week during busy season

      -Very strong encouragement to not work 7 days a week, and take either Saturday or Sunday to rest and recharge

      -Closing the office for a couple days post-4/15, with pay

      -A general feeling of camaraderie amongst all levels – very much a tone from the top of “it sucks right now, but we’re all in this together and we’ll make it through”

      1. Geillis D*

        Your office sounds like they’re doing everything right! Especially the stretch breaks and the no 7 day workweek guideline. My office has plenty of snacks and a Tim Horton’s next door (I’m in Canada), camaraderie in spades which stems from the owner’s truly amazing personality and employees who have been with her for years, and I hope we close down after April 30. But there is definitely a push to work 7 days a week so people essentially get zero breaks from March until April 30.

        Thank you for the perspective, it seems my other two workplaces were the outliers.

  43. T Ferguson*

    I work for a company that employs a lot of R&D scientists, the vast majority of whom are salaried and considered exempt (I suspect a lot of them shouldn’t be exempt, but that’s not the question). The company expects full 40-hour, 8am-5pm Monday-Friday workweeks (1 hour mandatory lunch) from its scientists. If you have to work over 8 hours in a day you get no overtime (because salary/exempt), but the handbook explicitly states we do NOT do flex time- you can get stuck working a few 10 hour days early in the week and are still officially required to work a full 8 hours all the way through Friday.

    Most managers are extremely lenient about this policy, still requiring the full 40 but being under-the-table flexible and allowing you to, for example, leave early Friday if you worked late Monday, or work through lunch one day to have time for a dentist visit another. As a new manager I was told that’s a company-wide directive, and that it’s “too hard” to change the handbook in a way that wouldn’t get taken advantage of.

    My question: Is it normal to require MINIMUM 8-hour days of exempt salaried employees, with no flex time to balance short and long days? Is it normal to have that policy in writing but be ignored? And am I being paranoid to worry that the way it’s done now only works until someone in upper management decides to be a jerk and come down hard with the letter of the law?

    2. Holly*

      Is this your first job as an exempt/salaried employee? Because I can say that I’ve only ever had jobs where the expectation is you work the amount of hours needed to get the task done… you don’t get to leave early the next day for working over 8 hours! That’s very unheard of to me, but I am in a different industry.

      1. T Ferguson*

        Yes, it’s my first job salaried and/or exempt.

        I should clarify that the way projects and workflow go in our company means that this policy quite often leaves employees with dead time late in a day, where they can’t start a new task but aren’t allowed to go home even though they’ve finished everything for the day.

        1. Holly*

          Yeah, that’s still normal. You work longer when you need to, but no cutting the 8-hour work day short.

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      It can be normal in some industries. Because of that, I’ve also seen the informal “see you next week” from management that knew I was there later earlier in the week at noon on Friday.

      Remember that the person that would write them up is generally their manager. If they manager doesn’t care, then it’s generally fine.

      1. T Ferguson*

        Point well taken :) I’m lucky enough to not care for my team and have a boss and grandboss who also don’t care. I’m just the kind of person who gets annoyed when the rules and the way it’s done are in direct conflict, and was curious how common it was.

    5. Galahad*

      Normal.
      Think of your exempt job like a 45-50 hour a week job that you sometimes get to leave after 8 hours for, and you get a couple of hours (max) to go for dentist / doctor appointments.

      Also, scientific fields with R&D benefit a lot from later afternoon long coffee breaks where senior researchers just gab or connect. Half the time, they are learning from each other and generating new ideas, even if the ideas don’t immediately apply to what you are doing. You need creative brain space (with nothing to do) to do a good job at R&D. Can you get a social coffee corner arrangement started?

      1. WatchOutForThatTree*

        I don’t imagine that serious R&D work fits well within an 8 hour day. A few long days interspersed with shorter ones seems much more likely. Trying to fit everything into a 8 hour day would also seem to seriously limit R&D productivity. For example, every experiment (if experiments are part of the work) would have to be timed to start/finish within those hours… leading to longer than necessary delays due to finding times that work on the lab schedule. Does that gibe with your experience?

    6. LKW*

      Very normal on both counts. Upper management could come down but they likely know the result will be counterproductive. Unless they are an idiot, which also, entirely possible.

    7. ENFP in Texas*

      An 8 hour day across-the-board mandate is pretty normal. But so is the ability for managers to have some discretion to allow their employees to adjust their times on occassion.

      When it’s in writing as the official policy, it allows HR and management a sime and clear-cut yardstick to address performance issues if they should arise.

  44. softcastle mccormick*

    I already know there are some significant culture issues where I work, but, is it normal to constantly deal with a fairly unclean bathroom?

    I work in a medium-sized office attached to our company’s distribution center, and we all share large, 10-stall restrooms with office staff and warehouse staff, about 150 people total. These restrooms have been a sore point with all staff for as long as I’ve worked there–at their best, they’re passable, at their worst, they’re fairly vile. It’ll go in cycles; things don’t get mopped or cleaned, trash collects on the floors, seats get, *ahem*, soiled, and our soap and paper towels go unfilled for whole days at a time. Then, we complain to the Warehouse Manager, and things pick up again for a month. The problem is, we have one very elderly cleaning lady who clearly struggles to keep our huge building clean, and she’s really sweet. But…is it normal to have such disgusting bathrooms? On an average day, multiple toilet seats are “soiled” and don’t get cleaned until the evening. Am I just being prissy?

    1. Booksaregood*

      I had that situation at my previous job – I was warned when I started that the bathrooms were gross and when I left 4 years later, they hadn’t improved. We were dealing with the same issues that you listed, and also broken toilets and sinks. Multiple complaints to multiple people/departments/building staff got us nowhere.

    2. Gross!*

      Absolutely not. While I’ve seen some bathrooms worse off than others, nothing is as bad as you described. Even fast food restaurant bathrooms are cleaner than this.

    3. Reba*

      Very Not Okay!

      Maybe you could get more traction by pointing out that access to sanitary facilities is an OSHA thing — they have to be in “clean and sanitary” condition.

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        We tried this in the summer, and our Warehouse Manager accused us of threatening to call OSHA on the department, and everyone in Management and HR got very defensive :/

    4. LCH*

      i’m going to say not normal. i currently work in a rented office space attached to a warehouse. our single-user bathroom is cleaned at least every other day (maybe every day?) anyway, it is clean. from what i’ve seen of the regular office space and warehouse multi-stall bathrooms, they are all pretty good. awhile ago, i worked in an actual warehouse that was storing our archives. that single-user bathroom was very old, dank, and rust-stained, but did not feel super unclean. your workplace needs to hire additional cleaners.

    5. Elizabeth Proctor*

      Even when I worked in a place (higher ed) where offices were only cleaned and trash taken out once a week, the bathrooms were still cleaned daily. But they had a really high volume of use with students, etc.

    6. ...*

      Um no that’s disgusting! Of course that’s not prissy. But that’s almost not even on the cleaning lady because accidents on the seat are the responsibility of the person using it. I don’t know how people just walk out of a bathroom without checking the toilet situation and making sure it’s 100% OK for the next
      Person

    7. Someone Else*

      This is not normal and I’d expect if you have insufficient cleaning crew for the space the FIRST thing cleaned should be the bathrooms with all other cleaning taking a backseat to that, almost always.

  45. Bunny*

    Question regarding management normalcy!

    So my manager in a recent meeting asked why I have so many medical appointments, what are they for, and why have I been sick 3 times since starting 8 months ago (disclaimer: I have check-ups with my doctor and a specialist on a regular basis – nothing life-threatening, but it’s to manage my physical and mental health). But I didn’t realize an average of 1 appointment a month is concerning…and I’m only gone for about an 1-1.5hrs, or I leave them until the end of the day when I would be leaving in 30min anyways. Sometimes I’ll go for a couple of months with no appointments, and then I’ll have 2 appointments one month and 1 appointment the next.

    Is it normal or common for management to ask for these details? I would rather keep my health private. I live in Canada for what it’s worth.

    2. Catsaber*

      I don’t think that’s normal. Also there’s a much more graceful way to talk to an employee about missing work that doesn’t violate their privacy. That doesn’t sound like an excessive amount of sick leave to me, but it just depends on the office.

    3. T Ferguson*

      It certainly seems out of line. I’d say it’s somewhat normal for a manager, or any coworker, to be curious or worried about your health if you’re out a lot. It’s not normal to keep pressing the issue though, or to be overly intrusive.

    4. peanutbutty*

      I think (UK) it would be normal to ask about a recurring pattern of sick leave – e.g. if someone I manage passes a certain number of separate sick days in a six month period, I am supposed to have a check in with them even if they are well below the overall allowance. The idea is (apparently) to catch any issues early on and ensure employee has access to relevant support if needed e.g. occupational health.
      Employees in my work do have to specify reason for sickness and that is common in UK. it even gets logged on a system with the cause selected from a drop down menu (!).

      I think if I saw someone I managed taking multiple medical appointments I might say something along the lines of “you are absolutely entitled to take those and I’m not asking you to disclose anything you dont want to, but please let me know if there’s anything we can do in terms of accommodation or support”

      So whether its normal or not could depend on tone and the detail of what you’re being asked.
      “I’ve noticed X medical appointments, please let me know if there are any accommodations we can make, here are the details of occupational health in case needed” –> Normal (UK)
      “Tell me the reason for your sick leave” –> Normal (UK)
      “Tell me the reason for your medical appointment” –> Not normal (UK)

      1. Bunny*

        See the second comment “Tell me the reason of your sick leave” would be not normal AT ALL where I’m from in Canada (it may different elsewhere in the country, we are huge), unless you were out for longer that 3-4 days.

        1. Someone Else*

          I’m reading the second one as aiming for a distinction between “medical appointment” and “currently ill” not something more detailed? Although I admit, upon reading the above, were the third one not there, I might’ve thought the second one meant what the third one does, but since they’re listed separately and categorized differently, I’m guessing that’s the intended line?

    5. cmcinnyc*

      In the US it would be illegal to demand medical details. However, it would not be illegal for a manager to say that your pattern of sick-time use was concerning. Sick time is only supposed to be used when you’re sick or have a medical appointment, so you’re using it appropriately. You may have to prove that–but to HR or in a way that preserves your medical privacy while establishing that this pattern is going to be normal and expected for you.

    6. Asenath*

      I have never been asked for details as to why I was off sick – and that’s in Canada, too. My employer, like any employer, has the option to question me if they expect abuse – but if you are going over whatever the number of no-note sick days you have in your job, all you should need is a note saying something like “Ms. Bunny was at Medical Clinic on Date.” And really, your appointment times don’t seem excessive for someone having their health monitored regularly.

      1. Bunny*

        See this has been my experience too. The expectation I’ve always run into has been “I have a medical appointment on this day/time” or “I’m sick today and won’t be in, I expect to be in tomorrow”, and outside of being out for days on end…no one has ever asked me “Why are you sick” (honestly in my last job I was out WAY more often) or “Why do you need these medical appointments”.

    7. Lithic*

      I think your manager is trying to understand your absences and doing it poorly. Are you keeping her in the loop as to your appointments? Making up the time missed? If you have some flexibility as to when you schedule appointments perhaps you can discuss with her when would be the least disruptive to everyone’s work day? Clearly communicating when and how often you have medical appointments will hopefully alleviate her concerns and doesn’t require you to get into the personal details.

      1. Bunny*

        I am definitely keeping him in the loop (my manager is a man); and every time I update him, he waves his hands and says “oh you don’t need to tell me just take the time!” as if to be accommodating? I do make up missed time by working late within that week, and was told upon hiring that the company values flexible working hours. Besides blocking my calendar, I have a whiteboard behind my desk where I note upcoming appointments (I have one next week).

        When asked this question I was a little flabbergasted and just said “I just require a few medical appointments, it’s not a life-threatening condition”.

    8. Galahad*

      Hah., Some employees take time off work to get massage therapy…. optional massage therapy that could be easily scheduled after normal work hours, or they could at least work an extra hour in the week to make up for appointments. You may need to give specific details to HR, confidentially, but not to your manager. Some people actually LIE about appointments and are going to get their hair cut, or to go to a concert early. Imagine.

      Your manager is just trying to figure it out, and noticed that your pattern is more than the average employee, and that you likely seem young and healthy otherwise. It is ok to tell generic info to your manager (my doctor proscribed a lot of screening tests that I can only scheduled during work hours, but everything is fine… or I need vitamin B shots regularly…) but you can also say that it is for medical reasons required by your doctor and will provide the info to HR if needed.

      1. Antidisestablishmentarianism*

        I’m late to the thread, but just wanted to reply that I have actually used my sick leave to get massages. It was recommended by my physician for a genetic medical condition that I have, and while my work didn’t ask for a note, I did ask my doctor if she would provide one for my work, should they need one, prior to taking said sick leave. Obviously, people take advantage of sick time, and I know that’s the point of your post, but wanted to flag that sometimes things that are deemed by some as luxuries are actually beneficial to others (my PCP basically said getting the massage would fall in the same category as getting physical therapy for me).

    9. LKW*

      It’s very normal for a person to be curious, so I think it’s normal to ask the question. HOWEVER, you are entirely within your rights to not answer. If they pressure you to give you more information that is NOT normal. Most people in management within US/Canada know enough about privacy rules to back off.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      It’s not normal but it happens pretty regularly. Alison has a lot of questions where managers or coworkers are this kind of intrusive. It’s not ok.

    11. Aurion*

      I would say such a reaction is common, but (obviously) not ideal. If your manager tends to be nosy and/or previously spoilt by extremely healthy employees, they could see your absences as kind of breaking from the pattern they’re used to. (As a point of reference, I used to have 3 sick days a year and didn’t even use them all…so when I took off 2 afternoons in 3 weeks I got a concerned “is everything okay? You’ve taken off a lot more time recently”.)

      I would just breezily answer it with a “oh, everything’s fine, just some appointments” – if your manager is generally good but unfortunately a little obtuse in this realm, a light brush-off should be enough to get them to back off, especially since by objective standards your use isn’t even that high. Assuming they’re asking in good faith concern, just the act of asking isn’t the same as a demand for all the details.

    12. quirkypants*

      I don’t think it’s normal!

      I would say the only time I did have to question an employee on their appointments was when they didn’t let me know they had them in advance and they weren’t managing their time/responsibilities (and the same employee did it several times). I.E. The day before they tell me they’re out for an entire morning but they haven’t rescheduled any of their meetings or let anyone know who is counting on them for things that they’ll be gone and unable to deliver.

      Even in this case, I didn’t probe (or care) about what the appointments were for, only that I wanted them to realize that if they are taking care of personal things on work time that they had to be responsible for: telling me with some advance notice and managing their calendar and responsibilities appropriately.

      I’m also in Canada.

  46. CR*

    This happened two days ago. I emailed the vice chair of our board about a concern I had. I found out she told the chair of the board about this email. I wasn’t saying anything bad or anything I wouldn’t say to the chair – I just thought I was having a private conversation with the vice chair. The chair of the board says I “went behind her back” with this email and it is a fireable offense. I am freaking out. Am I truly to copy the chair of the board on every email?

    1. TechWorker*

      I don’t have a board but in a comparison to ‘someone at the top’ vs ‘someone not at the top’, no it seems perfectly reasonable to not always go to the top top person with everything. That sounds a bit control-freak – unless your email said ‘I’ve got a complaint about the chair’ or ‘I’ve got this concern please don’t take it to the chair’ I can’t possibly see how that’s ‘going behind her back’

      1. valentine*

        There’s no privacy. Don’t put in work email anything you’re not willing to be deposed about or to discuss with a prosecutor.

    2. T Ferguson*

      If anything, e-mailing the CHAIR directly could make a lower board member feel you’d gone behind their back. I’ve never heard of a high-level executive wanting lower tier employees to contact them directly rather than going through layers of bureaucracy first.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Exactly this. This is not normal.

        However, it may be the way things work at your organization, so I’d say you should speak with your direct supervisor and ask for guidance.

    3. Be nice*

      Based on my experience, if I’m emailing ‘up’ to someone, I have to compose the email as if it will be forwarded to a higher group and read by others. If I can’t say what I want to say under that context, then I’ll have a phone or in-person conversation. I’ve been burned before by clueless board members or execs who don’t think anything of forwarding an email on to the person in question.

    4. LKW*

      No, communication goes up the chain – you don’t start at the top. You raise the concern to your manager, who either deals with it, tells you to ignore it or raises it to their manager and so on.

      Ask them to clarify why this was a fireable offense and they’ll likely back off. Unless you were talking poorly about said chair or a client, I don’t see anything wrong.

    5. Psyche*

      That is really weird, especially if the concern was not about the chair. Presumably, if she needs to hear about it, the person you emailed can tell her (just like what happened this time).

  47. drpuma*

    A couple of folks have asked about burnout signs and how normal that is… I’m curious how long it takes to recover after burning out?

    In the past 3 years, I’ve bounced from a startup with a huge workload, to a laid-back short-term contract, to a full-time job for a traumatically horrible manager at a poorly-run company, back to a longer-term contract with some stints of unemployment in between. How will I know when I feel…better, and have definitively abandoned the maladaptive habits I accumulated to get through those times? Does anyone have any tips to help accelerate that process?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m not sure there’s an easy answer to this.

      I will say that reading this site daily was huge in helping me recover from my terribly toxic workplace.

    2. darlingpants*

      It took me 4 weeks off (between defending my PhD and coming back to work as a post doc) and then another few weeks of not working at night/at home, as well as having a good sleep, mediation and exercise schedule (it helped that it was January and I did a lot of health resolutions). I knew I was bouncing back when I was like “… what is this feeling in my stomach? Is this …. ambition?” I’m not 100% yet because as soon as I started feeling ambitious/interested in my work again I dropped a lot of my good habits, but I think I am slowly improving.
      Meditation really helped me, as did not really caring how I did at work (a product of both burnout and a lot of goodwill I’ve built up with my boss over the last 6 years). I’m sure sleep helped more than I realized. It sucks because if you’re still in a situation that is causing burn out it takes a lot of time and effort (and indirectly money to help with that time and effort) to get out of it.
      I also read a lot of internet writing about burnout (including the Buzzfeed article by Anne Helen Peterson) and got really mad at the world. Sometimes knowing this is a really common experience makes me even angrier, but sometimes it helps knowing that you’re not alone.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      It all depends on how much time you get truly “off,” in my opinion. If you go from crazy job straight into a normal job, you didn’t really get any rest. And recovery is truly different for everyone. But if you haven’t taken a real break yet, you should definitely try to. Even after a week off or so I wasn’t really “recovered” after crazy job, but that combined with new, normal hours job made an impact, and I felt a lot better, at least mentally, within a couple of months.

      As far as bad habits you’ve picked up, they don’t just go away. You have to be aware of them and consciously work on them. So spend some time really thinking about any negatively impactful behaviors that you developed, and try to stay aware of them so you can cut yourself off and start breaking them.

    4. Asenath*

      Don’t put a deadline on yourself for when you will feel better. Take it a day at a time for as long as it takes – in my experience, I suddenly realized that I hadn’t had a real bad day in weeks, which really encouraged me to keep on with my efforts to change my bad habits. But focusing on deadlines – which I also tried, thinking it would motivate me – proved to be counterproductive, since I felt even worse when I missed one.

    5. wandering_beagle*

      Can you pinpoint why you are feeling burned out? Is it from having a busy work schedule for the last 3 years, or is it something else, like not liking the industry/career you are in? Maybe the answer to that question might point you in the right direction as to how long it will take to recover.

      In the mean time, I like what darlingpants suggested about developing self-care habits that work for you. Finding a calm, positive activity that can be done outside of work can help with re-energizing.

      Personally, I’ve been burned out professionally for the last couple of years (I even had a couple months off last year and that didn’t help). I know my burnout stems partly from wanting to change careers. I’m unable to do that at the moment, so until then I’m trying to focus on all the other parts of my life. Work is work – I go there, try not to spend too much mental energy on it, and come home and live my life.

    6. Out Of Retail*

      Professional mental health help (in my case a LSW, but as long as it’s a mental health professional you’re comfortable with.) They’ve really helped me figure out which habits were useful (strangely, some of the things I learned at Awful Job were good lessons) and which I needed to find a way to breathe through. It was immensely reassuring and helpful.

    7. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Reframe this. Instead of being mad at yourself for having maladaptive habits, be proud of yourself for being flexible and adaptive enough that you could handle all of these situations and do good work. Instead of yelling at yourself for not feeling better yet, recognize that you are a normal human being for whom there is no set schedule or deadline to feel better by. You are putting way too much pressure on yourself. If you can hang with it and do good work, you’re fine, and it will resolve. Or it won’t. At that point you can take further steps with a professional. The point is, you are not expected to be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY LOOK HOW HAPPY I AM all the time.

  48. Restructuring?*

    Is it normal for a company to restructure and eliminate a position, but turn around, and hire for the same job with a different title? The duties are essentially the same as well.

    For example, “Manager” is made redundant but they are hiring a “Team Lead” who’s duties are the same as the manager’s. “Manager” was a full time role but “Team Lead” is to be split into two different team leads, both with part time hours.

    2. Juniantara*

      Not totally uncommon but not particularly healthy either. Maybe they wanted to get rid of old manager but didn’t want to go through firing them, maybe they want to bring in someone at a lower pay/responsibility grade, maybe they are trying to take credit for layoffs with corporate without actually losing someone. There are lots of reasons to do this, and most of them are bad signs in the long run

      1. Restructuring?*

        Definitely see the lower pay/responsibility aspect. From my knowledge, “Team Lead” pays the same hourly rate as “Individual Contributor.”

        The company is definitely looking for ways to cut costs in 2019 from what I was told. From the looks of the amount of work that I’m getting, I have a feeling clients/their budgets have scaled back this year as well.

        1. Anonysand*

          I would agree with this response. At a previous job I held, it was made known that one full-time position with benefits was the same cost to the company as three to four part-time employees, depending on the pay rate. It was practically impossible to get more full-time positions made for that reason, and while I was there they broke two full-timers down to part-time positions. Not only did they not have to pay for insurance or PTO time, but they were also able to make the part-timers hourly and cap their time as-needed. It’s an unfortunate approach to cutting costs, I think.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Just that position? Kind of weird.

      As part of a larger, overall restructuring, it makes sense.

    4. AnOh*

      Sounds like they could pay a “Team Lead” less than a “Manager” and depending on how many hours the part-time people are working, they may not qualify for benefits. Maybe trying to save costs?

    5. AnotherJill*

      This is usually done when they want to fire someone without firing them. So not abnormal, although not really a good practice.

    7. ENFP in Texas*

      Unfortunately yes, this is normal. Part time employee costs to the company are different than full time costs (benefits, etc). It is also possible to have lower salary/wages for a part time employee (or two) than for one full-time employee who has been there a while. The progression of raises will also be different, so costs over time will be different.

  49. Anon for now*

    I hope this is allowed because it’s a job interview not a job. But I have a job interview coming up, in a field where first interviews are typically done over the phone and then top candidates are flown out for in person interviews. The first interview is via skype and the employer only offered me one choice of time and date. I’ve never seen this before and am wondering if I’m right to be miffed (especially because I’ll need to leave work to do this skype interview, but could step out for a phone interview).

    1. PhillyRedhead*

      Allison has addressed this before in previous posts: If you search the site with the terms job interview assigned, the post title is “employer scheduled an interview with me — but just assigned me a date and time without asking about my schedule”

      1. Anon for now*

        Thanks, but this is actually not the same situation. There was no assigning of an interview slot, simply “Does X time work for you?” when in my experience I’ve usually been asked to select one slot from several offered.

        1. ThatGirl*

          That to me doesn’t seem that weird – they’re suggesting a time, not saying “this is the only possible time,” right? You’re free to suggest something else?

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Yeah, there’s a pretty big difference between “Does 3 pm Tuesday work with your schedule?” and “You’re scheduled for 3pm Tuesday.” Option 1 is a conversation, Option 2 is a demand.

          1. Anon for now*

            Again, I do not have a conflict. The root of my question is: it is outside the norm in my field to a) do a video interview and b) not initially offer a range of time. The fact that they have done two things outside the norm before I have even met them makes me wonder if this particular organization (trying to be deliberately vague about what type, but a large organization with dedicated HR for different departments) will operate outside the norm in other ways and is generally unprofessional.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              We can’t comment on that because we’re not in your field, but in general saying “could you do X time?” is fine and normal, and in general an organization that doesn’t strictly adhere to the particular kind of industry norm you’re describing is not inherently a red flag.

              1. Jenny*

                I know I sometimes just toss out a time to move the conversation forward. I have had the ” everyone is too accommodating and so it takes three times linger to schedule it” problem

                1. Jen S. 2.0*

                  This. A LOT of times, asking an open-ended question with no specifics means the debate will go on for days, whereas you can steer the conversation toward a solution by making a specific suggestion early on. “What day works for you?” means a whole back-and-forth settling on a day and then a time, while “Can you do Tuesday at 3?” may well be resolved in the next message.

            2. Eleanna*

              I wouldn’t assume that those 2 things, in and of themselves, indicate an organization that is generally unprofessional. The time offered may be because that fit in best with their interview schedule (in a large organization, getting the committee into the room for an interview can be difficult). In some fields (academia, for example, or libraries) video interviews are becoming gradually more common. It’s possible that that’s all that’s going on. Obviously, you will want to watch if the organization behaves in other ways indicating a general lack of professionalism or norm violation during the interview process, but in my experience this indicates a bureaucratic approach and people on the committee who are comfortable with technology rather than disfunction. Bureaucracy is par for the course in large organizations.

            3. Jadelyn*

              I think jumping from “their process is slightly different” to “generally unprofessional” is, quite frankly, a wild leap. Not knowing your industry makes it harder to answer with certainty, but I know that we prefer Skype for initial interviews because you get additional information by being able to see someone as well as hear them.

              1. Anon for now*

                Jadelyn, that was precisely my question. I want to know if other people have found that companies that break norms during the interviews tend to be unprofessional. I did not leap to generally unprofessional.

                1. Kitty*

                  You are coming across as a little tense in your posts here, at least to me. Have you had bad experiences in other interviews in this field?

                  Hope this isn’t coming across as unkind. I guess I’ll find out!

                2. Jadelyn*

                  You literally just said “The fact that they have done two things outside the norm before I have even met them makes me wonder if this particular organization…will operate outside the norm in other ways and is generally unprofessional.” And I was expressing that I think that’s a stretch, and “their process is different” doesn’t equal “generally unprofessional” – the exact words you used. So it really feels like you had mentally taken that leap already, and were mostly looking for validation from folks here, especially since you’ve been arguing with every response that says “it doesn’t seem weird to me”.

            4. De-Archivist*

              I’m someone who schedules appointments that generally go phone interview first and then in-person. The person whose calendar I manage keeps a very tight and full schedule, and the closer to the interview date, the less wiggle room I have. There’s isn’t a point in the next month where I would be able to say, I have X-Y time available on these dates because we’re booked out for weeks.

              So, I might have a single open spot this week at 3pm on hypothetical Thursday. So I say, “Would 3pm Thursday work for you?” If so, then we’re good. If not, that’s okay too. It just means that it might get pushed to later the following week. So if you said, no, I can’t do that, but I have X,Y, and Z available, I’ll look back at the calendar and see if any of those times work. Nothing personal, of course. We’re just busy people. Another commenter said, and I’ll agree, that sometimes it’s actually much simpler to offer a narrow window initially.

              But to answer the heart of your question, not adhering to some industry standard like this wouldn’t be a red flag to me. Different managers are going to have different personal preferences for communicating with new hires, and you’ll never know what constraints of time, tech, or personnel people are operating under. If there were something, shady or disrespectful happening here, I might feel differently, but that’s not what I see based on what we’ve been given.

    2. Alianora*

      A little unusual to only offer one time, but I wouldn’t be miffed over it yet. If it doesn’t work for you just suggest some other times and see what they say.

      1. Bubbleon*

        +1, I also think the fact that it’s a Skype interview means they expect people can be more flexible. It’s a lot easier for me to sneak into a conference room or run home for an hour than it might be to take 2 hours, go across town, and not have coworkers wonder why I’m suspiciously dressed up. If there haven’t been any other red flags and you haven’t even tried asking for other times yet I don’t really see this as an issue.

    3. Cube Ninja*

      Specifically as to Skype – possible to download the app via your phone and do it that way?

      1. Jadelyn*

        I was going to suggest this – I have G2M on my phone so that I can call into work meetings remotely and still be able to be on camera/see presentations. Skype has an app as well, if I were doing a Skype interview I’d probably load it on my phone and duck out into my car for the call.

    4. ExcelJedi*

      It’s not normal, in my experience, but it could be out of necessity. Did they seem to realize it was an inconvenience and apologize (while still staying firm), or did they act like that was normal?

      It could also just be a really junior/inexperienced person doing the scheduling. I’d judge it based off how they reacted if/when you pushed back.

      1. MayLou*

        This is completely normal in my experience in the UK – you get invited to an interview on X day at Y time. You can call and ask if another time is possible if you need to (I have done this once, when I had another interview on the same day and didn’t have time to get from one to the other) but they will have scheduled all their candidates and it will depend on whether they can move anyone else. There again, it seems recruitment is quite different in the UK to the USA – I applied for a job last Thursday, deadline was Sunday, got an email on Monday with an interview time, had the interview yesterday at noon, and a call by 4pm telling me I was unsuccessful and they’d appointed someone else. That’s not uncommon, and with that speed of turnaround it’s not possible to let people choose their own interview slots.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’ve never had a take it or leave it interview time, and I’ve had a lot of interviews in my time!

      No, I wouldn’t say that is normal if they are saying “this is your interview slot.” *BUT* if they have said “can you do Tuesday at 3pm?” then the fact they only mentioned one time doesn’t mean it’s the only one on offer – it’s perfectly reasonable for you to go back and say “I can’t do 3pm unfortunately; but I’m available at (options).”

      Normal: “Can you do X time?” and react reasonably to “No, but can do Y – does that work?”

      Not normal: “Your interview is at X time and if you can’t make it, we’ll move on to someone else.”

      1. Anon for now*

        Yes, it was can you do X time not this is your time. I have no reason to think they wouldn’t be flexible if it didn’t work for me. But they are breaking two norms, first by using video chat and second by not offering a range of dates, which makes me think these are red flags.

        1. MissGirl*

          They are not breaking two norms. Both of these are fairly normal and not red flags. If they absolutely refused to consider another date that might be a problem. And the video chat is normal.

          1. Bubbleon*

            Especially if you’re going to be flying candidates out to the in person interview, I’d definitely want to have a video chat instead of just phone.

            1. Anon for now*

              That may be your personal opinion, but as I’ve now said several times, it’s not the way things work in my field. It’s phone first, in person second.

              1. MissGirl*

                I’m confused. If you’re absolutely adamant this is not normal in your field then why did you come to this thread to ask other people’s opinion on if this normal. Were you looking for validation? All of us can only offer our opinion based on our own experience.

                1. JJ Bittenbinder*

                  Yeah, Allison even asked us not to do this in bullet #3:

                  To make this as useful as possible, limit this to genuine requests for input — not stuff that you already know is horrible.

                  Maybe not horrible, but Anon for now is pretty clear that this is Not How Things Are Done in their field, so I’m not sure why they’re posting (and why they’re being a little argumentative, but that might just be me).

                2. Anon for now*

                  Yes, I’m sure it’s not normal in my field. But what I’m not sure is whether it’s a red flag to do two things that are not normal for the field in setting up an interview. Knowing it’s not normal doesn’t mean knowing it’s a problem or a sign of problems to come. That’s why I’m posting.

              2. Bubbleon*

                It seems like you’re still very irritated by this and the tone of your replies is a bit argumentative. I think you might have been expecting everyone to agree with you and it’s thrown you a little that we haven’t. You know your industry better than we do and have probably researched this company and its interview process enough to know what is and isn’t normal, if this is a major issue for you then tell them you’re no longer interested. If not, I’m not sure what else you’re hoping to get here.

                1. Anon for now*

                  How can I expect everyone to agree with me if I’m asking a question? Again, perhaps my question was unclearly phrased in the first place, but the question is: if a company does two things that are not normal when setting up an interview, does this mean they will generally not behave according to norms throughout the hiring process?

                2. Bubbleon*

                  I wonder if you just might not be as 100% correct about what’s normal as you think you are. I don’t mean that as a dig, I’ve been in my industry for nearly 10 years and only realized within the past few months that something I thought was a standard actually wasn’t. My duties had shifted a little a few years ago and I was just disconnected enough not to be fully up to speed. I wonder if the last time you interviewed Skype wasn’t an option because of technology or the location didn’t require it, or if the company you work for is the one out of touch by doing phone interviews instead of Skype.

                  In either case, I think the change from phone to Skype is the only difference from your expected norm- you don’t know that “how does X time work for you” isn’t how all interviews are scheduled, as the comments have shown many people use this as a starting point so I wouldn’t count that as a deviation. Changing the format of the first interview from phone to Skype based has absolutely nothing to do with professionalism, it’s keeping up with technological capabilities and might just be your particular interviewer’s preference. Whatever the reason they’ve decided to do it this way, I think you’re making mountains out of molehills to think either of these is problematic.

              3. EPLawyer*

                To me there is not much difference between phone and skype. Just wear pants for the Skype interview. It’s still a way to get to know someone before deciding to fly them out.

                I think you are stuck on the medium here rather than the purpose. Technology evolves. once upon a time there were ONLY in-person interviews and no phone screens. Heavens if you go far enough back, you applied by letter and then either got the job or not. Not even telegraph exchanges. So now, instead of a phone interview they prefer video chat so they can see the person they are talking to. I think you can expect to see this often in the future, just as phone screens were rare but became a thing.

                However, if you are really so bothered by what you perceive as outside the norms, perhaps you aren’t the right fit for this particular employer.

              4. DreamingInPurple*

                You already seem to have decided this isn’t normal for your field, so I’m not sure what you are asking. If your question is just whether to be miffed about it or not, I would say no. If the video interview is the first one, it seems like it would be analogous to the phone interview, but with one more input stream. No harm, no foul.

                1. Anon for now*

                  See above. I wasn’t asking if it was normal because how could you know that. I’m asking if doing something abnormal is a red flag.

                2. I Took A Mint*

                  No, it’s not a red flag. “Abnormal” just means “not normal.” It’s only a red flag if it’s a bad thing. Offering 10 weeks of PTO is abnormal but it’s not a red flag. Asking to speak over Skype instead of voice-only phone, and offering one date instead of a range might be abnormal, but they don’t seem particularly negative.

              5. Little Pig*

                Doing a video interview instead of phone is a pretty small deviation from the norm, and well within professional standards. It’s not like they’re requesting interview-by-combat or something.

                I second the other comments that if you ask a question, you should be willing to hear the answers, even if they’re not what you wanted to hear.

                1. De-Archivist*

                  I would kill at interview by combat. Under “Special Skills” Excel, Video Editing, and Expert at Mace and Flail.

              7. These are normal in almost every field though*

                I don’t know what field you’re in, but in almost every field, if they’re not meeting you in person, a video chat is normal. And throwing out a time is also par for the course — it’s starting a scheduling conversation, not demanding you not have a conflict.

                I hate to sound rude but thinking these things are a red flag makes you sound very inexperienced, and the fact that you keep pushing back on people saying “no, these aren’t red flags” makes me think you may be difficult to work with.

                1. Anon for now*

                  I’m literally ASKING if these are red flags. Not saying they are. I *am* saying they’re not normal because I know my field and I know they aren’t normal. What I don’t know is if not following the norm is a red flag.

                2. Bee*

                  @Anon for now, you didn’t ask if they were red flags, you asked “am I right to be miffed?” So everyone’s taking you at your word and saying no, this seems like a totally reasonable interaction.

              8. Annie Moose*

                If you already know this is unusual in your field, I’m not sure why you asked the question here–this thread is for people who aren’t sure if it’s normal or not.

              9. Christine Dutton*

                Interesting. Things are changing rapidly regarding video conferencing. A lot of employers didn’t bother with it because video conference tools were quite wonky. Now they are quite stable. You may find this to become the new normal.

              10. Someone Else*

                OK but you’re in a thread intended for asking “is this normal” but you seem to be telling everyone responding to you that you already know it’s NOT normal. If you already know it’s not normal, then you have no question?

              11. Seeking Second Childhood*

                For many offices, the only phone IS Skype. My office has had this long enough that I’m starting to see the product name used as a verb: “Skype me”. The voice & screenshare are most common. Video is added for discussing prototypes or breakage….and for meeting new people at other sites.
                So…phone first could be morphing into Skype first simply because tech is advancing.
                If you have technical reasons not to use videochat, tell them. If it’s logistics, tell them you’ll need a time where you can get to a quiet private location, and offer them a range of options. If the library near your office is closed the day they suggest, for example. (Many libraries have group-study cubicles that would work.)

        2. Future Homesteader*

          There’s actually a good reason they might do this.

          I set up a lot of meetings, and particularly when I have to do a whole host of meetings in a short time period (like interviews or budget meetings with different departments), I often only offer one or two times to start. That way I don’t have to block off four potential meeting times for each meeting I’m actually trying to schedule. If I offer you four times, I can’t offer the same four to someone else – but I might only have four times total and three people to schedule. It allows me to get the conversation started with everyone at once, instead of having to do them consecutively to avoid everyone picking the same time.

        3. Observer*

          As others have noted, asking about a specific time is totally normal.

          Unless there is something extremely uncommon about your industry, asking for a skype interview for first round is perfectly normal when the next step would be to fly you out.

        4. Beehoppy*

          I don’t think of video chat as breaking a norm – I think it’s becoming more common and I am actually conducting video interviews for a volunteer position right now. Video gives a better sense of who the candidate is and their personality and allows more of a connection.

        5. Exceler*

          Taking you at your word that these 2 things are not normal in your industry, I would say that they are not red flags, but indicators that norms in your industry (or at least at this company) are evolving to more closely match the norms of the work-world in general.

        6. Akcipitrokulo*

          Oh in that case – perfectly normal an no red flags at all. Vieo interview normal. Suggested (but open to flexible) time perfectly normal.

          No warning signs here :)

      2. hermit crab*

        Yes, I agree that there is a difference between “Can you do Tuesday at 3pm?” and “Your interview will be on Tuesday at 3pm.” The former is pretty normal in my experience.

    6. Lionelrichiesclayhead*

      Not normal but did you ask if other times were available? They may have just been throwing out a time and were expecting you to say if you could make it or needed another time slot. If they are insistent that they can only do this one single time then yes, that seems very inflexible.

      1. Anon for now*

        I can make it, it’s more the principle that I find irritating. I have no reason to think they wouldn’t find another time if I needed it.

        1. Annastasia von Beaverhausen*

          This is perfectly normal then. If I contact someone for an interview, I probably have a few times in mind, and will pick one and start there.

          If they said can we do this Thursday at 2? And you said ‘fine’, without asking about other times, then nothing happened here. They offered a time and you took it. If you had said you weren’t available and they weren’t willing to work with you, that would be weird.

          1. londonedit*

            In my experience it’s very normal for someone to frame it as ‘We’d like to invite you for a first interview at X, please let us know if Tuesday at 3pm would suit you’ – it’s not saying ‘We can only offer you Tuesday at 3pm and if you can’t make it, tough’, it’s saying ‘Here’s a suggested time and date, please let us know if you can make it’. If you can’t, it’s a discussion. And there could be all sorts of reasons for doing a video interview. I’ve never had one myself, but I wouldn’t be massively thrown off-course if I ended up interviewing that way.

        2. JB (not in Houston)*

          To clarify, they offered you a day and time that presumably worked for them and asked you if you were ok with that, but you believe they would have been fine with it if you’d said no and asked for an alternative? And you’re irritated that they didn’t just start with offering you multiple times? If so, I don’t think what they did was rude or that you should find it irritating. They didn’t slot you into a specific time and tell you that was the only time available. It’s not any different than if a friend said “we should get together for dinner,” you agreed, and they asked if you were free next Wednesday rather than saying “let’s get our planners and see what days we both have free.” I don’t really see what’s irritating about it–if you’re not free, just tell them?

        3. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          I’m having a hard time understanding what principle is being violated here. Offering several interview slots is courteous, but not always possible or practical, especially with several interview-scheduling balls in the air. I’d take it in good faith and assume they’re trying to simplify things by offering their best availability first.

        4. WindyLindy*

          I’d say that’s more likely to be a personal peccadillo than a sign that they’re disrespectful of people’s time or schedules. Personally, I like it when someone starts planning by giving just a couple best times. As long as they don’t get huffy if I ask for a different time, it can be a pretty efficient way to schedule.

          As for the Skype part, I also wouldn’t get hung up on that. A Skype screening call only asks a bit more of applicants than a phone screen, and some people find it’s easier to connect and get a feel for someone over video.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      For me, that’d be definitely an eyebrow raise, but perhaps just a slightly thoughtless HR staff member scheduled it, rather than an indicator of Bees.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        *Retraction of the above comment – someone asking if (time) on (date) will be workable is 100% normal. Someone telling you that you will be interviewing at (time) on (date) with no flexibility is 100% abnormal.

    8. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      It depends on the job. I’ve had that set up with extremely competitive jobs (working for the state attorney general, for example), but not for the most part.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I’ve heard of very competitive tech companies doing it but haven’t actually seen it in person. I even had a recruiter tell me a company would offer me one interview time and if I didn’t accept it I was out of the running… They offered me a time I couldn’t do and I said so and they rescheduled.

    9. Hiking in Heels*

      I usually give one option and expect the candidate to let me know if they need a different time. Although I will say that moving an appointment to the end of the day would be a reasonable request whereas asking for a week wouldn’t generally work for me. I want to be able to compare candidates fairly close together, which is sometimes why hiring managers are set on a certain day or set of days.

    10. Aunt Piddy*

      That’s pretty normal, since it’s not a command. You can say “I can’t to three but I can make two!” I do a lot of scheduling and usually I just throw out a date and time to get the ball rolling. It cuts out a lot of back and forth.

    11. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Neither seems odd to me. They offered a specific date but you said in comments you have no reason to think they would have an issue with offering a different date if you needed it. I’ve had that experience plenty of times. And the difference between skype and phone isn’t really that big, frankly – in both cases, it’s a way to do long distance interviews without making a candidate come all the way out. Saves everyone time. I mean, yes, you have to leave work to do that vs a phone call, so it is a bit more of a pain, but there are positives to Skype (they feel they can get a better rapport going, for some people who have difficulty on the phone, skype can help because it allows for some lip reading, etc). There is zero that would raise a red or yellow flag for me with this.

      (Though I hate skype. I also hate phone interviews, though, so there is no way to win with me!)

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I love phone interviews! I can have all of my notes in front of, their website up, I can be in my pajamas…and no worrying that the wifi is going to cut out the way I do with Skype. Phone interviews 4EVA!

    12. Bye Academia*

      When I was interviewing for my current job, this is how the interview was scheduled. It’s a position at a university, so there was a big search committee full of people who are hard to pin down. As with you, it was phrased as a request: “Does X day and time work for you?” I imagine it’s much easier logistically to assign candidates slot and move around people with conflicts than try to have a back and forth with everyone. I got the job and am very happy here, so it wasn’t a red flag or anything.

      How normal this is may depend on your field, but in academia it’s not abnormal.

    13. K8theGr8*

      I have had “take it or leave it” interview times for phone, Skype, and in person interviews many times—including one where I was called at 11am for a 2pm same day interview. I don’t think it’s a good practice, but in my field there are far more applicants than positions, so hiring committees can get away with more I think. I’m in higher ed.

    14. animaniactoo*

      It sounds like these are outside the norm for your industry, so I think the way you need to evaluate whether or not they are red flags is this:

      Is there significant drawback to what they’ve done that does not benefit you in some way? Has it created a major hurdle that would be expected to be a major hurdle for *most* people?

      Do you get benefits out of a Skype interview? If so, what are they? How might this benefit both the interviewer and you in a way that a phone call does not?*

      Okay, an array of slots is more convenient. But is it a major hurdle to write back and say “I can’t do that day/time, I have more flexibility for [x-y]”?

      Because “does things slightly differently than norm, but still in a manner that respects time/availability/brings benefits” is different from “creates major impositions”. The former is professional, the latter is not. Are you willing to work for a company that has looked at the norms and chosen a different but still beneficial path? Based on what they think works better? That may be something you need to evaluate as part of your fit.

      *I do want to flag that while seeing facial expression on both sides can be a benefit which may help in your evaluation, it is also possible that the immediate “face-to-face” involves some discrimination; whether purposely or inadvertently.

      1. Anon for now*

        Thank you for being one of the only commenters to understand my question and give me a thoughtful answer. You’re absolutely right.

        1. Kitty*

          Haha wow! I’m surprised Allison isn’t commenting on your sass, but I’m appreciating the thread.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          As a general rule, when a ton of people aren’t understanding your question, it’s because you didn’t state it clearly. I’m moving this thread lower down so that this irritability isn’t the first thing people see when they open this post.

          1. Hiring Mgr*

            FWIW I understood it, and I think people are being a little harsh toward Anon. The fact that Alison had to lay out all these ground rules in the original post tells you that this type of thread is ripe for misunderstandings and perhaps a big vague, so please give the commenters some courtesy :)

        4. Tyge*

          If only one person “understood” your question, maybe you should consider that you didn’t ask it well!

          You’ve been argumentative and rude to people all over this thread. Please stop. It’s obnoxious.

        5. animaniactoo*

          To be fair, the main reason I understood it was because I had the advantage of seeing your responses to other people and that allowed me to narrow down what you were really trying to figure out.

    15. AnonyMouse*

      In my experience, this isn’t abnormal (I work in higher education if that helps). It could mean that they set aside interview times and you are the last one to be contacted, so only one time is left. You should still be able to say “Unfortunately, I am not able to make this time work for X reason. Are there other times available?”

    16. NowWhat??*

      For my field (higher ed) where you interview with multiple people each round and they have a set number of interviews and candidates they need to pull in, it is very normal for them to offer one time (Does 2:30 on Monday work?) than to dictate it to you (You are now confirmed for tomorrow!) etc.

      I’ve had no issue pushing back and saying I have a conflict or a meeting I can’t get out of, and it’s fine. Most of the time they understand you have a job and can’t reschedule the 15 people you have a staff meeting with.

    17. quirkypants*

      Asking a candidate, “does X time work for you?” is not at all unusual. They might be coordinating a very busy person’s schedule and just want to get it done.

      As for video, I think it’s becoming increasingly common in fields where it didn’t used to common. But I personally HATE video calls.

      I’d feel comfortable to ask for another time if it doesn’t work. I’d be on the fence about asking to switch to a phone interview but I might do it if I was during the work day and I had a great reason. I’d also be comfortable doing it if I knew I was a stand out candidate. I’d be less likely to rock the boat if I wasn’t sure.

  50. Ready to Go*

    Is it normal for everyone in the office to have to walk out together at the end of a day? We’re a small, 10-person office and have to wait for everyone to finish wrapping things up until we leave. This is often an extra 5-10 minutes, which adds up and makes traffic more difficult. I like my job, but would prefer to leave on time and get out!

      1. valentine*

        Even the school-age buddy system was just one other person. Ugh. Tell them to stop it or to go full pre/K and give you naptime.

    2. Catsaber*

      Sometimes there is a logical reason, like someone has to lock the door. Othertimes it’s just because that’s the office’s “thing”. It seems like it’s more normal in small offices where there is a set schedule for everyone.

      1. Dollis Hill*

        This is not normal for offices, in my experience – if it’s because someone has to lock the door, I can understand one person waiting to leave last so they can lock up, but why does that mean the whole office has to wait? This is extremely odd, to me.

        1. Catsaber*

          I agree that it’s kind of illogical, even for a good reason like door locking – I definitely wouldn’t want to hang around for no reason! But sometimes people just get in a rhythm and do things like that.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      No, that’s not normal. It might be normal if everyone just happened to leave at the same time, because they’re non-exempt and work only very specific hours, but it’s not normal for people not being able to leave unless everyone else is also ready to leave.

    5. Lisa B*

      Can be normal, if there things like security concerns (shady neighborhood where it’s safer to walk in groups, for example). Otherwise not really.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Yeah, the only times I’ve had everyone walk out at the same time was due to security concerns / making sure the employees all made it to their cars ok.

    6. LW1111*

      It’s pretty normal in settings where there might be a security concern, like needing to lock a door or take deposits to a box. My sister has this at her current office because of the neighborhood crime rate.

      1. Dollis Hill*

        You don’t need ten people to ensure a door is locked or to take deposits to a box though, surely.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It matters if the same couple of people are always having to stay behind so that the last person out isn’t the last person.

          Also, depending on area, larger crowds are better than smaller bands of people.

          (I used to work in a neighborhood where dead bodies had previously been known to turn up overnight in the empty lot across the street. It had become an in-use lot shortly before I was hired there, but the rule was that NOBODY goes out by themselves after dark, and the more people who are walking together the better. It was also the first neighborhood that I experienced pizza places and chinese food places that wouldn’t do delivery. And I don’t mean select stores, I mean most, and your hole-in-the-wall kinds of places)

          1. Dollis Hill*

            If it’s always the same couple of people staying behind to lock up, that’s where having a rota comes in handy – although everywhere I’ve worked it’s either been a security guard who has responsibility for locking up if it’s a large office, or a couple of managers who share responsibility for that. There’s no logical reason for keeping the whole office behind just because one or two people haven’t finished working yet.

            1. animaniactoo*

              If there are security issues such that having only 1 or 2 people out last is a danger, there are very logical reasons, depending on the size of the office.

              In a 10 person office, potentially they could split that into two groups – one which leaves 10 minutes earlier and one which leaves later, but that might also create a whole different set of issues if the people who want to leave earlier or later don’t fit neatly into a group of 5 and that’s REALLY a problem for several of them.

    7. T Ferguson*

      It’s pretty normal in general if everyone leaves around the same time to walk out together, even if someone waits an extra minute or two. It’s abnormal if they disapprove of someone just leaving, or if nobody ever leaves until every single person can leave.

    8. OP*

      We are in higher ed at a military base, and most offices here have the same hours, but we’re a mix of exempt and non-exempt.

    9. kc89*

      no, that’s bizarre and sounds like a primary school kind of thing, not a business thing

      Do you actually have to wait? or is it just that everyone does so it feels weird to be the first one to leave

      If you can get away with it I would just wait until closing time and then say “have a great night everyone!” and stroll out

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      What? No. Not normal. I mean I’ve worked in offices where I will wait for my buddy or if I’m the one locking up I have to wait around. Or maybe on occasion we will all walk out together because we plan on chatting a bit. But otherwise, no, don’t be waiting around for people to finish getting their leftovers out of the fridge to take home. That’s silly. Just start walking out and say “see you all tomorrow!” and if anyone says anything say that you have to get home, run some errands, whatever.

    11. inoffensive nickname*

      Normal. It’s not necessary, but we generally walk out together. Our office is in a sketchy part of town and during the winter months, we leave after dark. There’s safety in numbers, even if it’s only three.

    12. Amethystmoon*

      I have never seen that, since I have worked mostly in large companies, but maybe in a small office where there is little variation of hours, I could see it happening.

    13. LJay*

      I had to do this in one of my retail positions. They explained it as a “safety in numbers” thing. Especially because the last person out would be a key-holder and could be forced to allow criminals in the store or be robbed of the till money they were dropping off at the bank.

      I haven’t experienced it in any office positions.

    14. WS*

      Ask! There may be a reason (at my workplace there is a security reason) and if there isn’t, then you can wrap up and leave on time rather than wonder.

  51. Outsider*

    Is this normal business practice? I’m currently underemployed, outside my field, at a large family run business. The business was founded by dad, and execs include daughter, son, and long time family friends. The company pays for vehicles and cell phones for most of the c suite, including daughter, son, son’s wife (not an employee), dad’s wife, her kids, etc. Company also “leases” use of vacation homes, etc, owned by family members.

    This is abnormal, right? But how abnormal/shady is it? I’ve been here a couple of years and I think I’m becoming numb to it.

    1. Jamie*

      I won’t comment on the legalities as those are complicated, but this is absolutely par for the course in every family business for which I’ve ever worked. Cars, auto insurance, phones, phones of their nannies…for all and sundry including relatives who have never worked there.

      Even dry cleaning. Totally normal and …IMO shady.

    2. Natalie*

      It’s not uncommon with family run business, IME. On a legal level, assuming they’re not publicly traded the biggest risk would be income tax if they are deducting all of these costs as business expenses and/or reporting them as income to the executives.

    3. Reba*

      I don’t think it’s like, good business practice…. but many family businesses have the purpose of providing employment and a level of comfort to the owners’ relations. It’s more about that than about the business as such, if that makes sense? Either way, being a bit detached is probably for the best.

      1. Outsider*

        Yes, thank you. That did make sense. I think that’s why I am struggling with it so much – it’s clear to me that there’s no room for advancement for those outside the circle. I never intended this to be a long term arrangement and am actively job searching – I knew it was a bad fit from the original (group) interview.

        1. infopubs*

          I worked in my family’s business for a decade, and we used to jokingly tell our part-time employees: “This is a very small, family run place. Please understand that this job will never be more than part time. There is no way to be promoted to daughter.” (I was the only full time employee.) I think it helped people understand what they were in for.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t know about normal, but it’s not surprising. My dad co-owned a business with another dude, and the other dude regularly did things like adding his wife and kids’ cell phones to the business plan, buying his kids’ school supplies on the company dime, stuff like that (while my dad was taking his salary in IOU’s so they could keep the doors open). When business recovered, time passed, and they went through the process of closing down, my dad collected (most of) the money off his IOUs from the sale of the building and retired, while his partner realized the goose wasn’t laying any more golden eggs and had to go scrambling for another job. My mom and I were quite gratified. (The other guy was a knob on several levels :P )

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Chances are low, but if you work at Walmart to pay the bills while moonlighting as an artist, FB-message me. :)

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      Quite normal in these types of family businesses, actually. I always feel like it must be kind of shady, but I’m not an accountant or tax lawyer or anything like that, so I don’t really know. But my BIL has a vintage pickup truck that he obviously drives for personal use that is being paid for by his family business. When that happened I surely thought it was shady, because he just drives it to work and back (some days) and then the rest of the time it’s personal use. But… I dunno. Not a lawyer.

    6. LKW*

      I don’t think it’s abnormal at all. The business is run by the family, they’re going to find every advantage they can. The vacation home seems a bit shady, but if they invite clients then it immediately turns legit (my dad ran his own business and often had clients over for an afternoon of food and drinks).

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      Totally normal. If that’s how the company wants to spend its money, they can do that.

      They just have to be careful about how they report it on taxes.

  52. Senior Llama Wrangler*

    Oooh, I’ve got one. I was the only one in my specific position at my company (Llama Wrangler) for a couple of years. I recently got promoted to Senior Llama Wrangler and I am going to train a new hire, John, to be Junior Llama Wrangler. I’ve never trained anyone, even though I have 5 years of experience in this position, and also I am extremely busy with deadlines so I can’t right now sit down with John and show him the ropes, except intermittently.
    A big part of my job is to organize the llama wrangling schedule at the start of each month. My manager told me to give John the llama input files and a copy of the output I produced for last month, and to pretty much let him figure it out by himself. This is a long and complex process that takes me up to a day each month, and I’ve been doing it for years! I’ve no doubt John is very bright and willing to learn, but it seems like a waste of his time to give him no guidance while he learns the procedure. Besides, it will take me a lot of effort to check his output to ensure he did everything correctly (think hundreds of thousands of llamas in multiple locations).
    I have stated these concerns to my boss and I said that, since we’re nearing the end of the month anyway, I would prefer if John sat down with me and shadowed me while I did the April llama schedule, so I can explain the task and field his question. My boss seemed reluctant but I persuaded her eventually. As I said, I’ve never trained anyone, but it didn’t seem normal to me to provide no guidance for complex tasks. Or is this a thing that happens in workplaces? The company didn’t offer llama wrangling before I arrived, so I was never formally trained and I pretty much created most of the processes by myself.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      It’s possible your manager is unaware of the complexity (or has forgotten). So it’s good that you were able to talk her around. And you said yourself that you trained yourself, so you’re also going to have to train your manager in a sense and be the one to guide all of you through this process. It might be beneficial to write some of this down as you go, just so there’s some sort of formal documentation.

      When I had to train someone on a complex task, there was some liability on if it got messed up, so my manager was all about letting me walk my trainee through the task and do as much hovering over her and her over me as needed. I can’t imagine just being thrown a schedule and being told to figure it out as a newbie, so you’re doing both you and John a favor.

    2. explanation needed*

      It’s not ideal but yes, some companies operate in this manner. I’ve seen new managers start, be handed a budget they need to stick to with different line items that are unclear and no explanation given unless they asked. While I was not a manager, I was the “junior” who had also been given things to code into budgets and were not given any specific direction on what each line item meant and where they were supposed to go. =\

      Is there any written documentation that you can provide John?

      1. Senior Llama Wrangler*

        Thank you for your input. There is no written documentation, as I was sort of figuring out the process as I went along, and never wrote down anything. I have mentioned to my manager that I would like to take the time and write down some guidelines, however she told me it wasn’t urgent and to focus on delivering our current projects (we are understaffed) and I let it go. In hindsight I should have insisted on having documentation. I will use the other poster’s suggestion and write down some notes as I walk John through the task next week.

    3. Juniantara*

      This certainly doesn’t seem like best practice, but also isn’t unheard of, especially if John has been sitting waiting for training for an extended period of time. The manager might not understand the complexity, or might want to keep John busy if you haven’t been able to train him.

      1. Senior Llama Wrangler*

        Thank you. John has other things to do in the meantime, but this is an important task and I think that’s why my manager wants John trained on it ASAP. I just want to make sure that I’m not totally out of line in refusing my manager’s request to hand him the stack of data and let him figure it out. If the subject comes up again in the future, I will make sure to stress the complexity of the task.

      2. TexasRose*

        Actually, as part of John’s training, perhaps _he_ should be writing the notes? Then the two of you together could create a basic process (or list of priorities) for what you’re doing.

    4. ldd*

      They probably just don’t realize the complexity of this task since they haven’t had this sort of thing before you came and set it up for them by yourself. They’re assuming someone else could do the same just as easily. It’s good that your boss listened to your concerns and is letting you train how you need to.

    5. De-Archivist*

      I’ve trained a lot of people in my day. My advice is to literally say aloud everything that you’re doing. Even if it’s something super obvious like, “I’m gonna go to the desktop and double click the llama wrangling schedule. Then, I’m going to verify the old schedule by clicking down at the bottom on last week’s sheet. I’ll take the printed sheet from last week and go line by line to verify that all of the numbers match. Pay attention to X because that can be weird if Y happens.” It sounds dumb, but it will help people by being able to visualize and hear exactly what you’re doing. Once you’ve walked him through it once, then switch seats and have him do part of it while you guide him through the process.

      Speak slowly and confidently. Try not to use much jargon. You’ve got this!

    6. LJay*

      Is it possible that John has significant Llama Wrangling Schedule making experience at a previous job and so doesn’t need a lot of guidance on the task?

      Is it possible that your boss thinks that the scheduling process is a lot simpler than it actually is and so doesn’t need much time or training on it?

      Is it possible that he thinks that you overcomplicate the schedule or should not take as long as you do to do it and so specifically doesn’t want you to train John on it?

      Otherwise it seems abnormal to me.

    7. Cathie from Canada*

      It can be very painful and hard to watch someone else do a job slowly and poorly that you already do quickly and well, even though in the long run John needs to be doing the job, not you.
      Now I could be completely wrong of course — but I am wondering if maybe you haven’t actually been doing as much training of John as you should, or at least not doing it quickly enough. This would undermine his confidence and also annoy your manager, that you aren’t getting on with higher-level tasks your manager needs done because you are still doing way too much of the lower-level or clerical work that John is now supposed to be doing. So maybe now your manager wants to get John up to speed at a faster clip and she thinks just throwing him into the deep end without you is one way to force the issue.
      So one thing to ask yourself is, if you just let him sink or swim, as your manager wants, how dangerous would his possible failure actually be to your organization in the long run? Yes, he might do it poorly the first time, but maybe he will prove himself with this task — and there’s always a chance he will figure out ways to do it better than you did!

  53. Anonish*

    Is it normal to have secrecy around moving teams?

    People usually get told last minute (‘as of 2 days time, you’ll be doing something completely different in a different area of the company’). Sometimes they get a choice, but not always.

    The justification for this is that if something changes or falls through last minute then no-ones got excited/upset at moving teams but it seems counter intuitive to me, because people also get upset at not knowing which team they’re going to & feeling like they have no input.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It was normal when I worked for a very dysfunctional organization.

      It is not normal at my current position.

      1. Anonish*

        We are generally functional otherwise, and the moves are known/planned for a while above at management level there’s just some weird decision that people will get more stressed by ‘plans that might change’ than by ‘not knowing the plans’

    2. CaptainLaura*

      Shockingly normal. My husband and I both work for huge companies and the “last minute all-team meeting” has become a running joke. There’s generally a ton of moving parts to these moves, and dealing with anxious team members who all want to add their input makes the process a thousand times more complicated.

      1. Anonish*

        Thanks for the perspective! I think you’re right that there’s usually lots of moving parts and a desire not to complicate things.

  54. Way to the Dawn*

    I started my second job with a government contracting company about 7 months ago. I am kind of the coordinator between those on site and the corporate people. My question is – is it normal for contracting companies to always feel like something is on fire? I feel like everyone is constantly worrying about new business and how much money we are pulling out of each project. I don’t really care for that type of culture – especially since I am fairly removed from the on the ground work that I like. And it honestly stresses me out and makes me worried about my job security. But I am wondering if this is just my company or if I should steer clear of contracting in general.

  55. Overpaid Admin With a Fancy Title*

    I have just started a new role at a small company, having previously been at two others in the same industry – one of which was much larger, the other was the same size but had a lot more money to play around with. I knew it was going to be a quantum leap to a manager role, and I knew it was going to be a challenge because I am the only one in my area, and it’s a new role. Before I started, this felt like it was the opportunity to shape my own role, gain valuable experience modernising, take charge of things and have a higher level of responsibility than most people with my experience. I knew it was going to be old fashioned – someone on my first day joked that it was like Madmen because everyone has their own office with the secretaries in the corridors, which is really weird not just in my industry but also in my country. But, ya know, I was excited to have my own office and they’re all perfectly nice people.

    But since getting here I’ve had countless issues. If IT systems exist, they don’t work, and no one can tell me how much we are paying for them. Even the Head of Accounts doesn’t know. I suggest changing them and they err and umm and ultimately tell me to get quotes but do nothing with them. So many things that were automated for me at previous companies I must now do by hand, and there is no drive to modernise – the Head of IT told me things were better when we used pen and paper, and when I asked where we kept stock images I was handed a box of CDs. They asked me to coordinate a project in something industry related I have experience and expertise with, but I found out two days before the deadline that the senior leadership had made a decision that put me in a difficult position and made the project, in my opinion, a lot weaker. When I asked why I wasn’t involved in this discussion, it was clear that it hadn’t even occurred to them, and they don’t plan to do anything different next time the project comes around (it’s an annual thing). There are major issues in the firm, including some dodgy compliance stuff, and I feel like there’s a distinct lack of ambition to compete with others in the industry/modernise. Yet we spent over half the managers meeting discussing the problem of people coming in a few minutes late and taking too many sick days. On top of that, they only offer statutory maternity leave and pay, which is highly unusual in my country and industry, and is disheartening as I was thinking of starting a family in a year or two.

    I got made redundant from my last role so sort of rushed into this. I want to look elsewhere before my probation period runs out so I don’t have such a long notice period, but I was really hoping my next role could be one where I stayed at least two or three years, as I have done the millennial job hop thing and it’s started to raise questions in interviews. Part of me thinks I should stay for the title, but I have visions of being in a future interview where they ask me what I did as a manager and I don’t have anything to tell them except the same sort of things I was doing back when I was an admin assistant, because I just can’t see this firm ever allowing me to do anything significant at all. So either I risk looking weird for only being somewhere briefly before job hopping again, or I look weird for having an inflated title and nothing to show for it. What on earth do I do?

    1. Ruby Thursday*

      I can’t answer all of this but I will say it’s normal for people to be resistant to change, even if the change makes sense, and it can really help to learn about what’s known as change management – you need to be thinking about how to get buy-in.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Agreed.

        Part of what you need to do is not just get quotations for other systems, etc. but draw direct lines to how investment in those things will ultimately save the company in time, money, and error rates over time. What improvements can be made?

        Things like those stock cd’s: Well only one person can use them at a time, if the disk gets scratched, there goes the lot for that particular disk, browsing and checking fit is a lot less efficient when you first have to insert the disk and copy the image over in order to pull it to use and may need to do that over several images on different CDs. And because they’re stored on CDs, you can’t easily add a few images at a time to update the library and you run the risk of your stock photos starting to look REALLY dated.

        Win the people who will benefit from the savings/increased efficiency/greater accuracy with these reports – and to be clear, I mean not just co-workers on your level, but people above your level. They are the ones who can get the momentum to get the Head of Accounts and IT to push it through and make it happen.

  56. Burner*

    I am an administrator and I work in a department with a pretty deeply entrenched consensus culture and flat hierarchy. Is it normal to be put off by this as an administrative professional? Any office-wide decision is effectively put up for a vote, and people constantly provide me with unasked for feedback. I’ve felt some regret about accepting this position because I was overqualified, but the culture makes me feel demotivated and demoralized. I am planning on applying for a more challenging position in a new department in a few months, but I worry that this is my attitude problem, not an issue with my department?

    2. peanutbutty*

      Normal for this to happen in academia and normal to find it incredibly frustrating when you just want to get something done.

      1. Burner*

        Yup, I am relatively new to my workplace, a large research university. I think in the big picture I am just going to have to develop more patience…I do think my department is especially bad though and I do not understand how no one else is irritated by spending half (HALF) of an hour long meeting debating word choice in a process document. Thanks for the validation, though!

  57. Anax*

    This is a minor thing. Is it normal for to need to wait for a stall to open up in the mens’ room for 5-10 minutes?

    I’m trans, so I can’t use the urinals, and I haven’t experienced that many men’s rooms. We only have two stalls and two urinals on this floor, which must have… maybe a hundred people?

    I think some folks stay in a stall for half an hour, and while I don’t want to police anyone’s bathroom habits… I’m dying, guys. Is this normal?

      2. Anax*

        Ughhhhh. I miss the women’s room sometimes. The tiny trashcans in the stalls, not having half the room taken up with urinals I can’t use, not having people pee on the seat so regularly.

        Gender is SUFFERING, guys. /s

        1. Urdnot Bakara*

          I say this as a woman who lives with a man full time–cis men are gross in the bathroom, and also, in my experience, much more willing to take absolutely FOREVER to do their business than women. So, not normal that you have to wait because your building should have adequate facilities (just make it all stalls! normal toilets still function as urinals! come on!), but normal man behavior, unfortunately. Good luck!

          1. Anax*

            It is so true. I don’t regret transitioning, obviously, but I can say from experience – the women’s room is MUCH NICER in almost every case.

            1. Alice*

              Unpopular opinion, I wish we had gender neutral bathrooms. We had them in my college and it was glorious, wait times for an empty stall were much lower, no urinals, trashcan in every stall, etc. I mentioned this to my (female) coworkers and they thought it was gross… which… it’s not as if I was seeing my classmates’ dicks every time I went to the bathroom?! Plus, the facilities were super clean. In our office, there is regularly pee on the seats in the women’s bathroom! I still have to figure out how.

              1. Anax*

                Ditto, honestly. It’s becoming fairly common in my area, but only for single-stall restrooms.

              2. Beth Jacobs*

                That’s an opinion popular for me :) It’s just common sense that having 4 stalls for everyone will lead to shorter average wait times than a 2+2 set up.

                1. Anax*

                  It’s worse, really – I haven’t been in the women’s room here, but it’s usually 4 stalls in the women’s room, 2 stalls + 2 urinals in the men’s. It’s a bit exasperating because if one toilet is clogged or gross, your options are very limited!

                  But yeah, you’re definitely right. I can understand some situations where it might be more fraught – for instance, a gym locker/bathroom which has open showers – but all the drama over gendered bathrooms is a little exhausting.

              3. Urdnot Bakara*

                At my college, every floor had one single stall/gender-neutral/accessible bathroom, and two multi-stall bathrooms that were divided by gender, but at least one floor in my dorm voted to make the multi-stall bathrooms gender-neutral, as well. I always wondered how that worked out for them! Glad to hear it worked well for you!

              4. Anonish*

                Gender neutral works but imo not with urinals – some places have gone gender neutral by just labelling everything gender neutral (we have one bathroom in my office which is men’s with a urinal but the only one on the floor so women are ‘allowed’ to use it) and idk there’s just something I really do not want to be in the same room as someone weeing in a urinal.

                Also women are just as guilty of sitting on the loo on their phones :p

                1. Anax*

                  But… but then wipe it up! :( It’s always less gross to clean up your own than someone ELSE’S, right?

    2. Holly*

      It’s abnormal to have one tiny bathroom for 100 people, but normal to need to wait for the bathroom sometimes if that’s the case… if that makes sense.

      1. Anax*

        Makes sense. That’s largely what I was wondering; it’s a pretty big building to only have one bathroom per floor! Nothing I can do about it, but it’s good to know if it’s normal.

        1. Bubbleon*

          Do you have access to bathrooms on other floors? It’s definitely an inconvenience to you but I wonder if you might be able to run up or downstairs instead of having to wait around.

          When you’re waiting, are you waiting in the bathroom or hovering outside? I’d be very tempted to wait inside and if no one had moved after 5 minutes say something like “does anybody need help in there?” to see if it breaks their attention from candy crush.

          1. Anax*

            I do, and that’s more my own insecurities – I’m trans and I look like a woman despite my best efforts, so it’s less stressful for me if I use a bathroom where most people recognize me on sight and won’t make things weird. I may be forced to migrate, though. This morning, one of the toilets was clogged, so there was only one stall. -__-

            I’m waiting in the bathroom, just outside the stalls, politely screwing with my phone. Usually, three or four people come and use the urinals while I’m waiting. I don’t think I’m comfortable speaking up, at least unless it gets substantially worse, because I know people may have legitimate reasons to just… take a while. But I’m not looking forward to the inevitable day when the Blood Tide rises unexpectedly and I’m stuck waiting and fidgeting for ten minutes while my pants get soaked.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Consider Thinx period panties when you think it might be a day for Aunt Flo to start. Or, something like Always discrete incontinent panties.

              Sorry, I think you are just going to have to head to the bathroom sooner.

              1. Anax*

                Unfortunately, not actually an option. I have PCOS-related oligomenorrhea, so it’s COMPLETELY random. Could be three weeks, could be five months. I have birth control to help with it, but I get some breakthrough bleeding.

            2. Also FtM*

              I transitioned about 10 years ago, but at the time was in a job where I did not feel I could be open about it. (I changed fields soon after and entered that field as male.) Where I worked, our key codes would only allow the elevator to go to our floor until 9:00. I got to work about 8:00. After 9, we could go to other floors. Other companies shared the floor where our office was, and we all shared the bathrooms.

              After 9, I would go to another floor to use the bathroom. I didn’t want someone from another company coming in and seeing me in the women’s room (since I dressed very masculine and my body fat was distributing, giving me a more male appearance). If I had to pee before 9, I would slip into the bathroom and, if anyone came in while I was there, stay in my stall until they left. I always rushed out, fearing I would run into someone while I was outside the stall.

    3. Reba*

      You might look into workplace regulations about how many facilities per person the building is required to have. What a pain!

      1. Anax*

        I think we’re *just* at the permissible amount – much to my annoyance! It’s a pretty weirdly-laid-out building, relatively new, and we rent it, so I don’t think there’s going to be any changes on the floorplans any time soon.

      2. Llellayena*

        Unfortunately 4 fixtures (50% urinals) is exactly right per code if his calculation of the number of people on the floor is right. Not sure if this would be more awkward, but maybe saying “can you let me know when you’re out” might get them to speed up or at least let you know when a stall is free?

        1. Anax*

          Yeah, that might work. If the slight passive-aggression of standing there waiting doesn’t work, I’ll try it.

          (I figure that with this many folks on the floor, if they see me waiting semi-regularly, it might sink in that being unnecessarily slow might inconvenience others. I’m generally the only one waiting, because… well, trans.)

    5. ...*

      Prob because men only go into stalls to poop and that takes longer generally. That’s frustrating though!

    6. Tinker*

      Oh gods. It certainly aligns with my experience. I work at a large tech company, in a reasonably nice office that is filled pretty much to capacity, and it seems like starting around lunch extended camping time begins.

      I think probably it doesn’t help that the bathrooms are likely specified according to an equal gender ratio and my office is very visibly not, plus also the thing about different throughput assumptions with regard to the plumbing installed in the bathroom and the plumbing expected to enter the bathroom.

      And then also the contrast is jarring when one switches, which is a relatively uncommon experience.

  58. BTDT*

    Is it normal for a company not to check any references for an internship candidate? I just finished interviewing for internships at 2 companies. Got offers for both and neither company even asked for my references, much less contacted them. I’m wondering if this is a red flag that they don’t do their due diligence with hiring, or if it’s normal not to bother for internships since the candidates usually don’t have a significant work history.

    (for the record, I’m starting over in a new industry so I do have a long work history, but it’s not super relevant.)

      1. Lisa B*

        Normal. I haven’t done reference requests on any of my internships, and for the exact reason you thought-
        Most of my candidates had so little experience I didn’t want to stress them out. Plus, internships can feel “lower stakes” than a regular hire. You don’t work out, meh, we’ll try to work through it for the 6-9 months you’re here.

    2. Jamie*

      It’s shockingly normal for references not to be checked for even management positions. I don’t get it, but it happens all the time.

    3. Coffeelover*

      Also it’s quite normal for them to just check one reference even though you’re expected to provide several. Its more to
      check the box than to do an intensive dig into your experience (although maybe if your reference was luke warm about you they’d dig more – not sure). I’m now going into job 5 and I’ve only ever had 1 reference called per job offer.

    4. RandomU...*

      Interns are pretty low risk hires, so generally speaking references aren’t critical. Unless it’s an industry with cut-throat internship programs (political, law, etc) most business will figure that if things don’t work out, the person won’t be there long.

      If there was a reason that a company were going to check references it would be because they were worried about something, again generally speaking, if the company is worried about something they will either move on to another candidate or they will take the risk.

    5. hello*

      Oh! I didn’t ask for references when I interviewed interns. A lot of them don’t have a track record, so I think that’s where the standard comes from, but I do think it could be a good idea going forward.

  59. Christine*

    Is it normal for a background check (as the start of the hiring process) to take longer than a week? Also, is it normal for a background check to take longer if you have a lot of past jobs. Asking for my friend who is waiting for a background check to come through. Since they were an independent contractor in the past, they have over 20 past jobs they had to submit.

    1. De Minimis*

      Normal if it’s for a government position where past employment has to be confirmed.

      Not normal for a simple check to see if someone has a criminal record [with no confirmation of past addresses, employers, etc.]

    2. Kat Em*

      Normal depending on the time of year. In the early summer when thousands of teachers are all getting hired at once and they all need background checks simultaneously? The whole process can become swamped.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yes, normal. So for one thing, background checks are usually done by a 3rd party company. So you might request it from them today, but their turnaround time is a week. Meaning it goes in their queue today but they might not start on it immediately. Sure, they run some reports, but then depending on the type of background check and how deep it goes, someone has to review those things and provide findings. They have to contact former employers if there’s not an automated way to verify employment (which not every company has), they have to give those employers a few days to get back to them, they have to validate discrepancies, someone has to review the results, etc. etc. etc.

      Criminal background check that comes back clean? Probably just needs to be run through an online database search. Full background check? Can take at least a week and definitely longer when having to do employment verification for 20 jobs.

    4. Didi*

      It’s normal in heavily regulated industries, such as banking, for very extensive background checks to have 3-4 weeks. More time the older you get, or if you were not born in the country where you’ll be working.

      Many companies outsource background checks to an outside company, so that also can lead to delays. Or if the company is doing a lot of hiring, there may be a backlog.

  60. Xtina*

    I was promoted into a position because the employee who worked in this role for ten years literally walked out of the office and never came back. I had only been with the company for seven months when that happened, and received scant training from Sylvia before she bailed.
    Since my promotion, I’ve been battling the comparisons between Sylvia and me. “Sylvia always did that,” or, “That was Sylvia’s responsibility,” or “Why don’t you do what Sylvia did?” Is this a normal thing for someone in my position to endure?
    Everyone knows that Sylvia up and left with no notice, so what is an appropriate response I can use when fielding these questions?

    1. Lisa B*

      SO normal. “I’m working on this in my own style” “I’m incorporating some new ideas,” etc.

    2. Bubbleon*

      ugh, totally normal but it stinks.

      One thing I’d be careful of is not to dismiss this feedback outright- it’s possible that Sylvia was doing some things right or most effectively and pieces of this feedback might help make up for the gaps in your training. That doesn’t give people license to be rude to you about it though, and I’d also suggest that you have a very short, information only scripted response. “Sylvia only reviewed X and Y with me before she left so I’ve been creating my own process for Z,” but phrased in a way that doesn’t make it sound like you don’t know what you’re doing. Sorry, my brain’s turning to mush today. No emotion (even though she’s the worst), just information.

    3. Samwise*

      Normal. I would listen to what the others have to say — even ask each person in turn to sit down with you for 5 – 10 minutes to go over what they have to say about it (make sure your manager is cool with this), take notes, when you’ve talked to everyone draw your own conclusions. If it’s about procedures or policies, write them out; if it’s about responsibilities/goals, jot them down — and then take it all to your manager and discuss what you ought to be doing/not doing.

      Then when anyone says, But Sylvia! you can say, nicely, I discussed this one with manager and we agreed that X and Y.

      Eventually they will stop it. If they don’t, talk with your manager about how to handle it if it’s disruptive or nasty. Otherwise, repeat I discussed this one with manager and we agreed that X and Y. Or even, Yep, that’s what I’ve heard! Or, ok, thanks for the info!

    4. Middle Manager*

      When I took my first role at this job I was the “New Jane” for awhile. That didn’t really bother me. When I was promoted to a supervisor, however, then I got the “But that’s not what Mary said” and “That’s not how Mary did it” and on and on and on…That was way more frustrating. My vote, normal but frustrating.

      Also in your scripts, I’d like to find a non-snarky way to say, “Hey, you know she literally walked off the job? So maybe she isn’t a great standard to hold me to and/or maybe you all drove her nuts with saying ‘that’s not how X did it”.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      That’s very normal… and if she was there for 10 years, presumably she had been doing a decent job, so it might make sense not to come in and immediately make a bunch of changes if the process is working (not saying you are..)

      1. jolene*

        “Oh my gosh, I don;’t know! Sylvia just left one day without training me. I would *love* any help from you on how to do this the way it worked for you. Do you mind sitting down and working through it with me?”

  61. WinethetimeKat*

    I need to know if this is normal or my boss is really micro managing? I need to know if the constant you have high level access and now you don’t is normal. My boss is micro managing in that if you do not do it his way you are not doing it right although there are a many ways to do the one thing. I am supposed to be in control of inventory(it is a mess) but he will not let me count it I have to take his wife’s numbers and work with those (which are wrong most of the time) Does this suck or is it just me?

    1. Lisa B*

      This part can be normal: “if you do not do it his way you are not doing it right”

      Everything else not so much.

    2. Electric Eel*

      Micromanaging sucks but is normal. The wife part is only normal if it’s a family business.

    3. WS*

      The part with the wife is not normal, but at least by locking you out of it you’re protected from whatever shenanigans they’re up to. (Could be protecting her incompetence, could be stealing!) Unless other things are really great there, I’d be looking for a new job, because you’re never going to be allowed to do your job properly.

  62. Clever Username*

    Is it normal for there to be a one-month gap between being told you’re on a PIP and getting the documentation that covers what you need to do to no longer be on the PIP?

    Is it normal to give positive 360 feedback about a coworker and then have the coworker’s manager come to you and say, “We need you to say something negative about [coworker’s name]”?

    1. Kyrielle*

      PIP – no idea.

      360 feedback – holy heck no. I could see them coming back and asking you questions about your interactions or whether you’d observed X (which might not have bothered you or even occurred to you), but just, “we need you to say something negative”? That’s bizarre (and probably wouldn’t look good on them later if it came to light in something like a lawsuit or an unemployment claim they contested, I imagine).

    2. Crystal*

      No, the PIP and the details should be at the SAME TIME. Otherwise what’s the point?

      The directions on the 360 are also not normal.

    3. Middle Manager*

      Not normal. We do it the same day. If we’re doing a PIP it’s serious and we don’t have a month to let it keep sitting.

    4. Dagny*

      I would be very, very concerned about the co-worker’s manager who asked for negative feedback in the 360 review. That sounds like a way of generating documentation to dismiss someone, when the person is not in fact underperforming/a bad employee.

    5. ENFP in Texas*

      If #2 was phrased as “Are there any areas of improvement that you can suggest for Jane” that’s one thing. Constructive criticism can be very helpful in a 360.

      But to say “We need you to say something negative” is not normal and a really bad way to approach a review.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Yeah – we have “say the 3best things” and “is there one are in which they could improve”. That’s ok. And alsi you can leave it blank.

    6. Didi*

      For a PIP, you may be told in advance that you will be placed on a PIP, but the actual PIP should not start until you have the requirements in writing and you have the opportunity to talk it over with your manager.

    7. tina belcher*

      Related question: at my last job, we had yearly “raises” that were actually just COLA. they happened on your anniversary of joining the company. My last year there, I noticed after my anniversary that my raise didn’t go through. I asked my manager about it and she said it was just an oversight, and she’d speak to accounting and get it fixed.
      Five weeks later, COLA still hadn’t come through, and I was placed on a PIP. I signed it, and then the next time I asked about my COLA, I was told “we don’t give out raises if an employee is on a PIP.”
      Given that I was supposed to have my rate adjusted well before the PIP occurred, was I right to be upset about that?

      1. didi*

        Well, presumably an employee has to be in good standing to receive a raise, and you were not in good standing if they put you on a PIP. So I am not surprised you didn’t get a raise.

        Look at it this way – there’ s a performance review process that takes some weeks. Your manager should have had a review with you to inform you that your performance was below expectations. Employees below expectations don’t get raises. And SOME employees below expectations get put on PIPs. Some don’t.

        The correct thing was for your manager to have told you that you would not get a raise because of your performance. The PIP is a symptom, not a cause.

  63. Cassandra*

    A four page drug and alcohol policy setting drug and alcohol testing as a requirement for ALL new employees, and explaining that if you are suspected of alcohol or drug use, you must submit to drug testing or be subject to termination. This is for a low level office job.

      1. Ubergaladababa*

        Can you explain why this matters? I would think that a) it’s still against federal law even if it’s legal locally and b) couldn’t they fire you over use even if it was 100% legal on every level.

        1. Raven*

          I mean, I’m certainly not a lawyer, but I’ve been at a job before in Southern California and my coworkers were adamant that it was NOT legal for us to be told *on the day we started working there* that we were going to be drug-tested since it was legal for adults in the California.

          Weirdly, we ended up finding out that that policy was mostly given to us as a joke… it was very weird. AFAIK none of us ever had to do any drug tests, even though there was a looooot of smoking off the job.

          But it was also a situation in which we lived where we worked (camp) so who knows.

          2. Exceler*

            Your coworkers were incorrect. Just because its legal, doesn’t mean they are not allowed to test you for it or have a policy against drug use. And I don’t know of any law in California or at the federal level that requires an employer to give you advanced notice of a drug test.

            1. MoopySwarpet*

              Weed legal state here and even medical has been determined to be a fireable offense if a company chooses to have such a policy.

              The loopholes are “at will” and “federally illegal,” but you can also be fired (or not hired) for smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, etc. and those are legal.

            2. Someone Else*

              I agree with everything you’re saying however it sounds the scenario described was it’s a legal state, the policy was not told to the new hires prior to hiring, so they show up day 1, get tested and if test positive are promptly fired? It’s legal but it’s also an astonishingly pointless way to go about it.

      1. Raven*

        I’m super curious/concerned about that aspect of it, too. Like… how much *is* there to say, practically speaking, beyond “don’t do drugs, and if we’ve found that you do drugs you’ll get in trouble”?

        That said, I wonder how this works with people who need weed for medical or religious reasons.

    3. Junior Dev*

      It’s sadly common but if you’re not in an industry where they have reasons to test people in general you could probably find other similar jobs that don’t do this. I really hate drug testing, but depending where you are and what industry you work in there is a good chance you’ll be subjected to it.

    4. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      Pretty normal, especially for anything manufacturing adjacent and for call centers. Out of the norm for professional services companies, but not outrageous.

      Four page policy seems long, but it probably is just a sign that they gave it to lawyers to write.

    5. Coffeelover*

      Drug tests cost money and quite frankly a lot of people would fail random testing. Unless you’re in a safety sensitive position, you are very unlikely to be tested unless you show up high/drunk to work.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      It is definitely in the norm for a company to require drug testing of all new employees and to require that you submit to testing if suspected of being under the influence. Personally I think it’s a waste of money, but it’s the company’s prerogative. In fact, I found this to be way more common in low level jobs than high level jobs, which is seems backwards.

    7. Drax*

      Canada here – yes, this is fairly normal. The clause that makes it normal is “if you are suspected of use”.
      It’s not normal for random when the employer feels like it for office staff, but fairly normal for them to say “if I think you’re drunk at work I will test you for it” but only enforce when they have enough obvious proof to justify it (like watched you smoke a joint in your car before you come inside obvious). It’s a butt covering clause, rarely enforced that I’ve seen.

      I’m also in Alberta which may change why it’s so normal here.

      1. Coffeelover*

        A note for Canada: it’s actually illegal for a company to perform or require drug testing for non-safety sensitive positions. Safety sensitive positions are usually trade type jobs (rig workers in alberta) but can include office jobs as well (like fracturing engineers that monitor wells).

        From the Ontario human rights commision: “Drug and alcohol testing that has no demonstrated relationship to job safety and performance, or where there has been no evidence of enhanced safety risks in the workplace, has been found to violate employees’ rights.” This is federal law and applies to all provinces.

        I also recently read that urine tests will no longer be allowed and employers will only be able to do mouth swabs (which test for drugs use in a much smaller time frame).

        1. Drax*

          actually, that’s the grey area. They can’t demand random testing but they can for cause, hence the addition of “if you are suspected of use”.

          1. Coffeelover*

            Yes – good point! I missed that you said that in your first message.

            (I also wanted to promote the view that random (without cause or reason) drug testing is a violation of rights – even though it’s legal in most countries.)

    8. Galahad*

      Very normal, especially if you are given the paperwork as part of an interview (prior to a follow up). 90% of people that would fail a drug test just don’t show up for the next interview. It’s an easy screen for the employer.

      Then, the company will typically only test those where it matters for the job. These companies with this policy often have the office admin staff as a minority of the total employee pool, so everyone gets the policy notice, but not everyone gets tested. Next, random routine testing is only enacted for people handling machinery / drivers / public safety, and everyone else is only tested on demand if there is a reasonable suspicision or report, or an accident. An admin may never be tested even with this policy in place.

      Four pages seems extreme. One page and a signature area should be all that is needed.

    9. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Four pages doesn’t sound normal.

      A requirement for ALL employees sounds closer to normal, especially in a big company. Most likely, there’s a subset of roles (manufacturing, transportation, etc.) where it’s vitally important that workers not be under the influence. Rather than require testing by role, the company then implements a blanket policy, failing to consider that “fair”, “equitable”, and “equal” do not all mean the same thing.

    10. Wintermute*

      In my experience very much not normal, they seem oddly fixated. Maybe they’ve had very bad experiences in the past, maybe they’re trying to rehabilitate a work culture that got a little too boozy, maybe the big boss has a strange fixation, hard to say, but I’ve never seen an AOD policy that’s more than a paragraph or two, and that goes double for low-level office work where roughly 50% of the time I wasn’t even tested on hiring. It may make sense if you’re a commercial driver or work in a lumber yard or something, but not for office work.

    11. Anonymous Poster*

      Normal in some industries. Especially normal in US government or government contractors, even if the business unit in question does not to contracting.

    13. Juniantara*

      This really depends on the industry, size of company and location.
      Four pages strikes me as a little long but this is really common in my world.

    14. CaptainLaura*

      Does your company have any employees covered by a collective bargaining agreement? My experience has been that when you have to write policies that govern union employees there’s a lot that needs to be formally written into the policy to avoid future problems.

    15. MoopySwarpet*

      Our handbook includes 6 pages (including the acknowledgement that you read it page) regarding drug testing, and we don’t even drug test. The handbook is a modified version of a state labor board handbook. The policy only includes reasonable suspicion and post-accident. then there’s 4 more pages of jargon including definitions, which substances can be tested for, voluntary treatment options confidentiality, etc.

      I think it’s ridiculous, but employers can demand pre-employment drug testing for any position.

    16. Cedrus Libani*

      Normal. It’s an insurance thing, and also a US federal contractor thing if applicable. When I accepted my current job’s offer (tech worker at a large company), not only did I have to sign a multi-page document detailing the drug policy, I had to have my signature witnessed and co-signed by someone else. (They didn’t ask who, they just wanted a second signature. I got the clerk at Kinko’s to do it.) I also had to pass a whiz quiz before my offer was finalized, and weed was on the syllabus, though it was legal in my state at the time. That said, I’ve never heard of anyone being drug tested on the job. They might if you were making a spectacle of yourself? But it was made pretty clear that this policy was about documenting compliance, and wasn’t something they actually cared about.

  64. Confused*

    Like many of you I am in my first job post school (and first corporate job ever) and I am wondering how normal it is to feel lonely at work?
    I love my company, I am treated well by teammates and managers, and am doing the work that I really want to be doing. The problem is that I don’t feel like I am fitting in with my coworkers. I work in an analytical field so most of my day is me sitting at a computer coding and there is little that can be done with others. Most days I essentially don’t talk to anyone, but hear my coworkers talking to each other about their personal lives, as well as discussing approaches to work problems. The fact that they are interacting with each other so much more than they interact with me is making me feel really self conscious and like I’ve done something that makes me seem unapproachable. In fact often they walk past my desk to ask a question of someone that I could easily answer. This is made worse by the fact that objectively I should have no trouble getting along with them. They are all around the same age as me and have many similar interests (however they are mostly male and I am female). I am not a particularly outgoing person (I won’t butt into conversations just to contribute, though I wish I had this skill) but I am fairly social. I have attended any group activities that I have been invited to and feel like I have put myself out there, but nothing seems to change.
    I’m wondering if others have felt this same way and if workplace loneliness is normal and should just be accepted?
    Thank you!

    1. De Minimis*

      Normal. Not all workplaces will be like that, but many are, especially for someone who is reserved [like me.]

    2. kdub3*

      Normal unfortunately. I switched jobs a year ago from a small staff, where we were pretty close. To a very large company. Sometimes I can go half a day without talking to anyone. I work with a lot of therapists who are used to setting up boundaries with patients, and those boundaries overflow to co-workers. There are some co-workers I know next to nothing about.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Hello my fellow analyst. Yes. This is not unusual, particularly if you are the analyst on a team of non-analysts. I have found that if you work on an analytical team where you all have the same types of job duties it’s easier to be social in that you all have something in common, but when you’re the analyst for a team that does something else (so I worked on a training team, for example, which was trainers, instructional designers, etc. and I was the only analyst), it’s hard because you’re off on your own little island.

      Even on an analytics team where you’re all doing the same stuff, it can be hard to connect with your coworkers since yeah, you’re all coding individually on projects.

      I doubt you’ve done anything that makes you seem unapproachable, but when you’re new(er) than the rest of the team that’s really established, you do have to be the one to put in more effort sometimes. Frankly, as a fellow woman who has spent a lot of time in this field surrounded by dudes, we also have to put in a little extra effort to get past some of the dude culture that takes place. It’s like they just automatically band together sometimes.

      So anyways, you don’t have to be the person who butts in to personal conversations, but you can absolutely be the one who starts them. Also one thing I’ve done in the past that worked really well is focused on making just one friend who can then kind of be your “in” to the rest of the group. I started at a new job and there were a few people I really liked and wanted to be a part of that friend group. (It was a large team and I wouldn’t describe it as cliquish, just different types of people naturally spent more time with each other.) There was one person who was particularly open and nice and whom I thought just seemed awesome. So I started striking up conversations with them specifically, and asking them to lunch and stuff. Pretty soon he started inviting me to group stuff, and I got to know everyone better, and friendships grew from them. So don’t feel like you need to create a personal bond with everyone you work with all at once. Start with one person and then kind of move on to the next.

      Social strategy is not exactly my forte, so I spend way too much time analyzing (ha, as an analyst) how to work out social situations like this.

    4. American Ninja Worrier*

      Very normal, especially in your first job out of college. In school, it feels like nearly every classmate is a potential friend. At work, many people have full lives outside the office and no interest in bonding with their co-workers any more than necessary. A coding-type role like the one you’re in probably exacerbates that because you have fewer opportunities to be friendly.

      My advice is to keep doing what you’re doing, but lower your expectations. It will probably get a little better, but not a lot better.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Normal. You haven’t done anything, you’re not unapproachable, it’s just easier to talk to someone you’ve already talked to in the past.

      If you don’t like it, pick one or two of them and have conversations on those shared interests. ‘Hi! I think I heard you like Avatar: The Last Airbender. It’s one of my favorites. Have you seen the post-show comics? They’re gorgeous.’ (Yes, I may have had this conversation last month….)

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Being friendly with one or two people will make it easier to ease into interactions with the rest – social contact is somewhat transitive.

    6. Junior Dev*

      Pretty common especially given the gender difference. I would suggest going to women in [your field] or women in STEM meetups if you can, to feel less alone, and if you end up looking for a new job try to search through those women contacts if you can.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah, gender difference often comes into play. I’m the only male in my current workplace and have similar issues. Everyone is nice, we get along okay for the most part, but I never really felt like part of the team during my time here [leaving tomorrow, woo hoo!]

    7. Amethystmoon*

      Normal, sadly. Are there any activities at work you can join? My workplace has Toastmasters as well as exercise classes, for example.

  65. Director of HR*

    On point 3 – not normal, but you’re certainly not alone. I was in a similar place myself recently, where even the thought of going into work made me want to cry. I had very little to do during the day and was hardly utilizing my skills that would align with higher level work and on top of it I hated the company culture and felt very sad and lonely most days I was there. I was also commuting a fair distance so I felt lonely on the drive as well. It often felt like I was by myself for 12 hours or more a day, and I couldn’t take it. I left after a year and I’m now in a position that is fully utilizing my skills and challenging me in really interesting and fun ways. I’m also making $30k more per year and I live 1 mile from work. Most importantly, the culture is a way better fit for me. I really like my coworkers and I’m in a position where I get to collaborate with people often which has been great for me. So take the plunge and look for something new!

  66. Kaden Lee*

    What are normal holidays in a professional (non-government) context? My current job has nine (New Year’s Eve and Day, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and the day after, Christmas Eve and Day) plus one floating holiday for your birthday that you can take whenever. I’ve got a job offer pending from a company with ten holidays and I know two are President’s Day and MLK Day, but not the others.

    1. Annie Moose*

      Sounds pretty standard to me. Some jobs throw in Good Friday and a lot don’t do the birthday holiday, but otherwise those seem like the normal US paid holidays.

      2. De Minimis*

        They may be just taking off the Federal holidays, so possibly also Veterans Day and Columbus Day.

        Often, companies will not give New Year’s Eve and the days after Thanksgiving/Christmas as holidays. I don’t think I’ve ever worked anyplace that had Good Friday off, but it’s probably industry/region dependent.

    2. Natalie*

      A couple of common configurations I’ve run into:

      The 10 “official” federal holidays, which would be New Year’s, MLK, President’s, Memorial, Independence, Labor, Columbus, Veterans, Thanksgiving, and Christmas.

      Stock market holiday schedule, which does not observe Columbus or Veteran’s but does observe Good Friday. If you add the day after Thanksgiving as seems to be getting more common, that gets you to 10.

      It’s not common to observe New Year’s Eve as a holiday in my experience, except maybe by closing early.

      1. Kaden Lee*

        Thank you! I had my suspicions about NYE not being normal, but I work in the same company my dad has spent 30 years in and my mom doesn’t get NYE off, so I’ve spent my life hearing the grumbles about her not getting NYE off.

      2. LCH*

        we get the 10 official holidays, but presidents and veterans are floating. we don’t get day after thanksgiving which is new to me after coming out of academic jobs and annoying.

        1. ENFP in Texas*

          In some states, banks cannot be closed for more than three days in a row without the banking commissioner’s approval, which is why banking-related industries often don’t get the day after Thanksgiving as a paid holiday.

          1. ENFP in Texas*

            Also, being closed two consecutive business days can be disruptive to normal transactions and financial flows.

    3. HeatherB*

      Nine seems standard, bordering on generous – we only get six which I think of as the absolute minimum (New year’s day, memorial day, 4th of July, Labor day, Thanksgiving, Christmas day).

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      We have six – New Years Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day. My previous hospital had like 12, including President’s, MLK, I think maybe Columbus Day, “Black Friday” … I don’t remember what else. Some places do Good Friday, the Friday just before Easter, though I think that’s more of a bible belt thing.

    5. Wintermute*

      Varies, I work in fintech now they get ALL THE HOLIDAYS, when I was working telecom we got memorial day, labor day, 4th of july, thanksgiving, christmas and new years, that’s it (lack of MLK day was a serious point of contention and subject to at least one sick-out pseudo-strike at one location because the call center was majority minority). I’d say your is roughly average to slightly above average.

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      Normal for the US. Generally around 10 holidays/year is pretty normal, though I’ve seen as little as 6 (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, and New Years) and not really batted an eye.

    7. Shark Whisperer*

      At previous job, we were open every day of the year except Thanksgiving and Christmas day, so we got 6 floating holidays and Thanksgiving and Christmas off. Honestly, given the choice, I loved having floating holidays as opposed to fixed ones.

    8. Amethystmoon*

      Sounds normal. My current division of the company gives us a floating holiday in place of MLK day. Another division has that holiday, but no floating holiday. It varies.

    9. Alex*

      I get MLK, Presidents, Patriot’s Day (I’m in MA), Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Columbus day (even though it is not PC), Thanksgiving, Day after Thanksgiving, Veteran’s Day, Christmas Eve, Christmas, New Year’s Eve, New Year’s.

    10. ENFP in Texas*

      Fortune 50 cube resident here – we get 8 paid a year. New Year’s Day, MLK, Memorial, Independence, Labor, Thanksgiving, Day After Thanksgiving, Christmas.

      I’ve never had NYE or Christmas Eve as a paid holiday, but management will usually let folks go early on those days (for the folks who didn’t take them as vacation days already).

      When I worked for a bank the day after Thanksgiving was not a holiday, but we got the bank holidays like Veterans Day, Presidents Day, Columbus Day, etc.

  67. Confused anon*

    Every day feels like the first day. Sometimes people talk to you, other times they don’t. Most of them travel in groups and it’s extremely clique-y. They only associate with the people they work with. Coworkers police your hours and time off. (I could go on….)

  68. FirstOfficeJob*

    At a non-profit, my ED announced we would be hiring a new position–Deputy Director–to help him with his workload. (The at the time Assistant Director was given a new title of COO, which is a whole other thing). The new position was supposed to start in April, but as far as I can tell a job posting hasn’t even been written. We’re a small staff; it is normal for there to be no formal update on what’s going on with this new role?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh yeah. In my experience (nonprofit and higher ed) it can take months and months between “hey we’re going to hire a new person” and the job description actually being approved, then another 4+ months until they finally hire someone.

    2. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I think it’s relatively normal for there to be no update if there’s no news

    3. Canonical23*

      Yup. I’ve worked at a few small non-profit-y or library organizations and HR/Personnel issues get pushed off frequently even when they’re necessary.

      For context, I’m currently the Assistant Director of a public library and before the job posting was created, they’d been talking seriously about adding my position (previously there was no AD) for 3 years. It’s very normal, but it’s not a good practice.

  69. just asking*

    I work for a small company. The owners are a husband and wife. The husband has started a second business and I regularly get tasked with doing work for that company. The wife often asks me to do things for their kids soccer team or a charity they are involved in. This work is within my skillset. I don’t really have time to do this – work for my main job gets put to the side or I end up having to do it on the weekend. I don’t get paid but will sometimes get a check that doesn’t equate to minimum wage. But they are the ones signing my pay check. For people working in a small office for local owners, is it normal to be tasked with personal projects? I am torn between, “this is their business and they are paying for my so whatever they want me to do is fine” and “I didn’t sign up for working for multiple business and I can’t focus or prioritize how I want to”.

    1. Chuck*

      The working-for-two-businesses thing is pretty normal IME with this kind of small family business. It makes sense to use the resources they already have when opening a new business, and since it’s run by a husband and wife the work/life boundaries are already going to be pretty blurred.

      As for the below-minimum-wage thing…it’s definitely illegal, but I’m wondering about your situation. Would you mind saying about how old you are and how you got the job/know the couple? My first job (from age 14-18) was a similar situation down to the two businesses and being paid under the table. I may be totally off-base but if you got this through your parents knowing the couple or something then advice might vary.

    2. Drax*

      It’s rather common in small businesses to be doing personal projects or stuff for other companies owned by those people. It’s not common to do work on the weekend unpaid.
      I’d go ahead and start telling them “yes, I can do this for Timmy’s soccer team but that means I won’t get to the Ninja Report until Monday” when they offer you something else, and then do exactly that – no more unpaid weekends.

      The thing that I think is weird is that you “don’t get paid but sometimes get a check” are you paid or unpaid? Unpaid means you can flat out say “oh, I agreed to do the Ninja report and don’t have time to help Timmy’s soccer team, sorry!” as you are essentially a volunteer.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Put your foot down on unpaid work immediately. No. Just no. That is illegal, not just “not normal.”

      As for personal tasks, I have been asked in small businesses before. Personally, I don’t like it and it’s not what I was hired for, so I would refuse to do it. I worked for one woman and her office was in her home. She straight up asked me to help bring in the groceries. No freaking way. I just said I really needed to focus on my WORK and wouldn’t be able to help.

      If you were on the clock, I would say that you should do what you feel comfortable with, but unpaid extra time is wildly unacceptable.

    4. just asking*

      I think I phrased the cheque part very poorly. I get paid a full time salary that is about market value for my position at the main company I was hired. The random checks come in from the side business. I added up the saturdays at the office recently and realized that the side business doesn’t pay that much but I do realize it is more a token of thanks than payment for services.

      I do not qualify for overtime in my province as I am management.

    5. WS*

      It’s really common in small, family-run businesses to be doing side jobs as well. What is not normal is to be doing them outside your paid work hours and/or having to do your paid job as unpaid overtime. I think you need to push back on the time issue, not the personal projects. “Yes, I can make a banner for Timmy’s soccer game but I won’t get the report done until next week.” “Yes, I can pick up the groceries on my way to work but I can’t take an hour after work to pick them up and deliver them to your house.”

  70. brooklyn 99 is a great show*

    Is it normal to be a month into a new job, but have only had 15 minutes of face time with my supervisor, and very very little communication? I have seen them at a couple other meetings as well, but it wasn’t the space to address my questions. We are in different disciplines, I’m the only person who does this job in this location.

    1. Raven*

      Can I ask what you do? That seems REALLY weird. I’ve been in a job where I had 15 minutes of FaceTime a week with my supervisor due to the nature of the job — and that was what worked out well for both of us — but 15 minutes total after a month? Strange.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Weird. Have you been given goals/objectives… anything like that? If not, then you can book an appointment with your manager.

    3. Wintermute*

      I’ve had a job like that, my 90 day and 30 day review came on the same day, six months after I started, and there was very little face time or feed back at all. It’s not unheard of but it’s certainly outside the norm. It also does you no favors at all, especially in the critical period when you are learning tasks and learning the culture to have too little feedback to assess how you are performing compared to expectations and what the expectations are/what the things that actually matter are.

    4. Gumby*

      I wouldn’t say it is normal, but 15 minutes a month exceeds the amount of time I have spent with my current manager. It probably averages maybe 5 – there are many months where we don’t talk at all. But that is a manager, not a supervisor. He signs off on my time sheet but hasn’t given much (any) input on my workload, tasks, goals, deliverables, etc. I look around, see what needs to be done, and do it.

      So: not normal, not completely unheard of, only a problem if you actually need to communicate and your supervisor refuses/avoids you.

    5. On Hold*

      Doesn’t sound like this is relevant to your kind of work/field, but to give an example where this is completely normal: I work in a (skilled) call center and the first 3 weeks are training, during which time the trainer does your timecards and assesses your work and progress. You aren’t even assigned to a supervisor until Friday on the 3rd week when you start taking calls, and you’ll get a 10-30 minute check-in meeting in the 4th week.

    6. A Scrummy Manager*

      On Hold mentioned a case where it might be normal.

      I’m in IT, and this is decidedly NOT NORMAL. I probably get 5-10 minutes daily with most of the folks on my team for idle chat, which is the door to any issues that come up. That’s in addition to 30 minutes scheduled weekly for 1:1s.

  71. Ceecee*

    I’ve been in two companies so far, and I’ve always had weekly 1 on 1s with my direct supervisor. We generally talk about what I’m working on and prioritization. I quite enjoy them and I’m wondering if this is normal to expect in other companies.

    1. kdub3*

      Lots of places do. It will depend on the company and your boss. I have worked places that never did and places that do. If you end up at a place that doesn’t maybe suggest it to your boss!

    2. Way to the Dawn*

      My first job I had 1 on 1s and I LOVED it. But my supervisor was very organized and structured. My current boss is pretty much the opposite and we definitely don’t have these meetings, but he just comes and brings me in to talk if he needs me. It isn’t as organized, but it still works.

    3. Half-Caf Latte*

      This is a good question, because I often feel on this sites as though this is seen as the norm, but for a long time I was one of 150 direct reports my manager had (24/7 operations). She had to do 3+ performance evaluations per week just to keep on top of those, meeting regularly with employees was out of the question.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      1:1’s are pretty normal, although depending on the job, your level, etc. you may not always get them weekly. I’ve had jobs where they are monthly, I’ve had jobs where they were weekly, etc. I have had jobs where there was never a formal schedule because it was a really open door policy and if I ever wanted to set up time with my boss they were happy to do so.

      If you are ever in a job where you’re not getting as many 1:1’s as you would like, it’s totally acceptable to ask for them more often. But you have to make sure that they are productive. If all you’re doing is re-hashing work that your boss is already aware of, they may not be interested in having weekly meetings. It will vary on your position a little bit, and the level of work you’re doing.

    5. Bubbleon*

      I think it depends on the type of work and your manager’s preferred styles.

      I prefer a weekly meeting with my small team to cover everything at once. I think it helps the members of my team to hear the advice for what others are facing, and they occasionally have the opportunity to give their own advice about what has and hasn’t worked in the past. Then I do monthly 1 on 1s with each of them to cover any other big or individual things. Our tasks are typically long term so any more than that and we’d run out of things to talk about, and we all work within 50 feet of each other so I’m pretty available in case there’s a time sensitive question between check ins

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      This is normal in my experience in smaller organizations. Larger ones for some reason forgot what good management looks like. Well, not really, what I’ve noticed is larger organizations overload management with other duties, which eats into time they would otherwise be using to do 1-on-1s. Smaller organizations in my experience were leaner on paperwork and so gave time to management to do this.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      It depends.

      I’ve rarely had weekly one-on-ones. A lot of time I’ve worked so closely or been in regular communication with my boss that that would seem unnecessary.

    8. Electric Eel*

      Fairly normal. My current employer does this monthly but the principle is the same.

    9. Someone Else*

      It’s normal to have them but also very common not to. I want to say it’s 50/50 whether you should expect it or not, with some skew in either direction depending on industry, but basically it’s normal to have them but it’s not abnormal to not have them.

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      I have two-weeklt 1-1s… but it’s the first company where I’ve had them. And I agree, a good thing!

  72. Happy Hippo*

    I’d love a reality check on my current situation. I got hired as an independent contractor by Pottery Inc. to paint teapots for other companies. Pottery Inc provides no benefits because of the independent contractor status but gave me all the tools I need for my job, on the job training, and expects me to paint as many teapots as I can in a day. I don’t have a manager directing my work/assessing quality. I’m wondering if Pottery Inc is taking advantage of me by hiring me as a contractor and benefitting from not having to deal with taxes and benefits by crossing the fine line between contractor and employee. Any and all advice is very welcome!

    2. MayLou*

      In the UK, it probably wouldn’t be legal for you to be “self employed” – the test here for self-employment includes things like the worker providing their own equipment, managing their own workload and deciding what work to do when and how, being able to provide a substitute if they can’t do the work, etc. It sounds very much like they are trying to avoid paying taxes for an employee (I’m currently highly suspicious that a place where I work, in a legally self-employed capacity, is illegally contracting someone who ought to be salaried, and it’s one of many red flags).

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yeah… you got hired as a contractor and they’re treating you like a contractor. The trade off is that theoretically as a contractor you should be making a higher hourly wage to make up for not having benefits and such. If you are underpaid, then you should be job hunting. But being hired as a contractor is normal and does not automatically equate to being taken advantage of.

    4. Wintermute*

      You would have to talk to an employment law attorney about this to be sure. Because some of the aspects of this job (independent workload management, no direct supervision/you control the work product) speak to legitimate I9 status and others (tools provided, training provided) speak to W2 status. There are other things like “do you have a uniform” and “do you have a set work schedule or can you set your own hours” which play into it as how much control they have over your working conditions and whether you are using their facilities or your own.

      IT’s a very complex area of law which can oftentimes only be determines by an IRS examiner or in a court, I’m not sure we can answer an edge case for you because it’s not a slam-dunk either way.

      1. A Consultant*

        Yes I agree with this, they are skirting the line quite a bit. It also depends on what state you’re in, a few have made the “employee test” even more stringent, and if you cross any one of the lines, you should be an employee. I’d read through the checklists/litmus test for your state to judge.

        I’d also be curious what rate you’re getting paid. Did they inflate the rate from what an hourly employee wage would be? (i.e., because your rate needs to incorporate your costs for benefits, taxes, etc.) It’s not part of the litmus test, but if a company is trying to use contractors ethically, that’s what they should do.

  73. 2weekSally*

    Is it normal to pull a job offer, because they found out you left a job without a 2 week notice?

    I admit this was several years ago, but I have always wondered. For one of my first jobs out of college I was offered and accepted a job at a large banking institution. I had to have an extensive background check, in which they grilled me on every past job I held. They asked me if I ever left without giving a 2 week notice. I said yes, because I did. (I know that is not good, but I was young and at the time thought I knew everything. I realize now, its not the proper way to leave a job.) The lady on the phone told me, that leaving a job without giving a two week notice, disqualified me from the position. I was so upset at the time.

    To make matters a lot worse I actually still received my welcome packet and first paycheck. Which I did not cash. They then though I cashed it and I had to turn over banking statements to prove I didn’t, to avoid them coming after me for it. It was awful. As a 22 year old fresh out of school I was really jarred by the experience. I have moved on for sure, to bigger and better things. I have talked to many people about it and I always get a horrified reaction. I have always wondered if anyone has experienced a similar situation

    2. Bubbleon*

      Did they ask you why you’d left the job without 2 weeks notice? I know that’s the standard and it makes good sense not to burn any bridges, but there are plenty of valid reasons why you might have done it. Especially if you’d done it so young, I expect that it may have been a retail or fast food position? Whatever it was and whatever the reason, as long as you could give a good explanation (and then maybe be given the opportunity to say you know it was wrong, if it actually was) I don’t know if that would be a reason to disqualify you by itself.

      That whole welcome packet and paycheck thing is a mess though, it’s probably for the best.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      Not normal.

      They should have figured out that you left without notice before extending the offer, so it looks like they put the cart before the horse. If it really was a deal breaker, it should have broken the deal before they gave you an offer. It looks like poor hiring practices to me, and given that a lot else went on, there were other poor practices in place.

      I’m glad you’ve moved on from there and it’s farther in your past. That sucks.

    5. Maria Lopez*

      You did not need to turn over any of your banking statements to them. They had no right to them and were taking advantage. They would know if the check had been cashed on their end, and should have put a stop payment on it anyway.
      Sounds like a very messed up banking institution.

      1. 2weekSally*

        Yes, I realize that now after many years. And after years working in accounting. They treated me just awful and I am thankful the job didn’t end up working out. They took advantage of a young, fresh out of school 22 year old and that is not ok.

  74. MM55*

    In my department:

    1) no one is notified when someone is hired or someone leaves our department. You are left to just find out on your own.
    2) we have a lot of contractors, and they are not in the company directory (company is afraid that will make them employees and open to benefits).

    Are either of these normal?

    1. just asking*

      Number one is normal at my office and I hate it. Actually called security on someone I didn’t know worked here. (It’s a small office, you would think they would make more of an effort.) I always make it a point to make sure everyone knows when someone joins my team.

    2. Murphy*

      I rarely know if anyone leaves. They sent out emails once a month for new employees in our large unit, but often by then they’ve been around for a while so it’s a bit odd.

    3. AnotherJill*

      I used to work for a company that did contract services, so I was placed in a variety of companies. At least at that time, it was totally normal not to be listed in the directory as a contractor.

    5. De Minimis*

      1 is not normal, but is common in bad workplaces.

      Not sure about 2. I’m a contractor at my current job, and if anything, the organization bends over backwards to make sure everyone knows who’s a contractor and who’s a regular employee, because there’s a lot of stuff I’m not allowed to do as a contractor. It even is part of my outlook settings, if you get an e-mail from me it shows up at coming from “De Minimis (CONTR)”

    7. Wintermute*

      1) is common in badly managed companies with large departments, the smaller the company the worse things it says about management but it’s not rare.

      2) This is a common misconception about contractor status. I’m a contractor now and in the directory, all the contractors are, but for other companies they’re not, or are listed specially or in their own directory.

    8. Anonymous Poster*

      This can be normal depending on the culture of the workplace and its size.

      For example, in a larger organization (especially some governmental organizations) with many large projects going on, this is very normal because logistically the people that need to know, are told.

      In other organizations, for some reason management was really weird about letting people know that contractors and direct hires will somehow find out and start leaving too. Yes, many other issues were present there. Many. I’ve generally found that organizations that are weirdly secretive about it also tend to have other weird/bad practices. That organization argued that letting people know when people quit would violate that employee’s/contractor’s privacy, and that they did not want that person filing EEOC/FLSA complaints because the employer ‘forced them out too early’ and go back and sue for backpay or discrimination. Yes, it was absolutely that bonkers. This reasoning is certainly not normal, but the strange secretiveness about people leaving was endemic through this large, well-known company.

      The company directory thing is also normal in a past government contracting job I worked in, but not others. Your company’s reasoning is unsound, but it was normal there because of the large number of contractors cycling through and the inability of the network administrators to add/drop folks to the directory everyday. There was just too much volume, which may be the case in your department, it sounds like.

    10. Electric Eel*

      1) Not entirely uncommon but a bit weird.

      2) Normal. It would be inappropriate to list contractors.

  75. Urdnot Bakara*

    At my previous job (small nonprofit, 25 employees), I was laid off (position eliminated due to budgetary constraints), but functionally, it was like I was fired, because I had about an hour to collect my stuff, wrap up anything that could be wrapped up in that time frame, and leave. While I was there, I observed that pretty much everyone who was let go was done so in this manner.

    I realize that this is a bad management practice (if you’re laying me off, at least give me some advance notice so I can prepare projects to be passed to someone else), but is this common at small nonprofits/small businesses? Or did this org just not understand how layoffs work?

    FWIW, I don’t think they were just trying to find a polite way to fire me, because I’d had good performance reviews until that point and they gave me a great reference.

    1. AnotherJill*

      In my experience, it is totally normal for those who were laid off to be told, walked to their desks to collect their stuff, and walked to the door. It’s actually a little abnormal that you were even given any time to wrap stuff up – some companies are concerned that you would commit some act of sabotage in that time frame.

    2. edj3*

      Normal. It’s hard because you’re right, it can feel the same as a termination for cause. I’ve been at companies that allowed the laid off person to quickly pack up their desk and companies that didn’t let them go back for anything (bag/coat brought to them) and their desks were packed up and shipped to them.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      No, it’s not uncommon to have people leave immediately after being laid off. Sometimes they want to avoid the awkwardness/weirdness that comes when people are losing their jobs and still being asked to come to work. It’s normal even at large businesses. Sometimes they don’t give you notice because it’s a financial emergency and they seriously don’t even have the cash on hand to give you notice (that’s less common though).

    4. American Ninja Worrier*

      This sucks a lot, but it’s pretty standard as far as layoffs. You rarely get time to finish your projects and it’s not uncommon to be escorted out by security and/or have your personal items from your desk shipped to you instead of being able to pack up yourself. It often really feels like you’re being canned, even if you know (and they say) you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s unusual (but not unheard of) to learn you’re being laid off and then have days or weeks to wrap things up.

    5. Wintermute*

      Very normal, because they don’t want someone with no stake in the business anymore, full access to the workplace, and its systems/files and zero “worries” left to give about their job performance continuing on.

      For what it’s worth though it may not have been legal if they did not give severance in lieu of notice because of state layoff laws.

    6. Juniantara*

      It isn’t necessarily considered bad management practice – the idea is to make a clean break, not have anyone sitting around angry with access to systems, and generally just get straight to the “new normal”. It’s no fun to be on the receiving end though.

  76. Lepidoptera*

    Is it normal to have a hyper-focus on policing people’s words in the workplace, as if that actually solves problems?

    We are not allowed to use the word ‘problem’ because everything is supposed to be a ‘challenge’ that can help us grow. This morning I got a two-minute lecture in a meeting that our ‘vendors’ have to be called ‘suppliers’ because “they’re not out there slinging hot dogs”. Who gives AF?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I think personally that policing wording to that extent is distracting to the actual work that is needed to be done. I don’t think that’s normal.

    4. Sally*

      That’s weird. IMO, vendor and supplier are both pretty common business terms, and which one gets used more seems mainly dependent on industry.

    5. Parenthetically*

      Oh my gosh, yeah, in my experience this is really normal in dysfunctional environments.

      I had a housemate who worked at a nonprofit that provided live-out care for adults with intellectual disabilities. She loved the work, but I swear she came home every other week with another word or phrase they weren’t allowed to say any more. Like, she was not allowed to call her clients “clients,” but had to call them “people we serve.” If she was referring to a specific client, she had to say “person we serve.” *giant eyeroll* Her boss was a nightmare, and the nonprofit was an ingrown mess at the management level, though the people doing the day-to-day work of serving their clients were amazing, committed, skilled folks.

      The language policing in my observation is an attempt to control the chaos without doing any hard work of problem solving or god forbid listening to employees.

      1. American Ninja Worrier*

        “Really normal in dysfunctional environments” is exactly how I would describe this.

    6. Wintermute*

      Sadly common in failing businesses who take the orwellian approach that if people cannot use the words to describe how badly things are going, they will not think things are going badly. The thing about vendors sounds more like someone high-up has an odd fixation though. Some “management systems” also have idiosyncrasies like this where they insist on specific nonstandard terminology (“coaches” not “managers”, etc) and often signifies a manager managing from a book not experience.

    7. Asariel*

      The company I work for uses staffing agencies to fill certain positions. We’re no longer allowed to call them staffing agencies anymore though; they’re now Global Talent Partners. Nothing has changed except the name. Now we’ve had to spend countless wasted hours changing this terminology on all our paperwork.
      The HR compensation/ benefits office must now be referred to as “Total Rewards”.
      … There are many more examples. All it really communicates to people is that they’re focusing on the wrong things.

  77. hermit crab*

    If you are in a billable hours environment, how normal is it to not have a general admin/overhead code? I used to work for a consulting firm that did not allow staff to use overhead codes, unless you were doing some specific pre-approved overhead task like interviewing job candidates or writing a performance review. So time spent organizing your emails, attending staff meetings, etc. (and sometimes even travel time!) was essentially just… not counted as work. We were all exempt, salaried employees, but you had to have at least 80 hours on your timesheet for each 2-week pay period. Is this normal?

    (I no longer work in this kind of environment, but I’m super curious about overall norms. It seems so foreign to me when people in the comments say things like “I’d bill that to the general admin code”!)

    1. HeatherB*

      I can’t speak to the industry in general, but my company is exactly as you describe. It’s insanely frustrating, especially because I’m fairly certain some people are extremely conscientious and end up working for free a LOT, and others just bill whatever time they spend in the office to whatever projects they’re working on.

      1. hermit crab*

        Yeah, this was one of the main reasons I left consulting! We usually billed in half-hour increments so that helped a bit, but there was still a strong culture of “if you are not literally producing a deliverable right now, it doesn’t count as work” and you had to be well over 100% billable if you wanted to take a vacation without tanking your numbers.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Well there’s (sometimes) a difference between your hours worked as far as a time sheet goes and billable hours. Now if what you’re saying is that you were expected to have 80 billable hours and you didn’t have any admin codes, then yes I’ve seen that happen but it’s super shitty because without an overhead code you would have to work more than 80 hours. Most of the time, in situations where there’s no admin code it’s understood that you wouldn’t actually have 80 billable hours in a 2 week period, unless the expectation is say a 50 hour work week.

    3. QED*

      Not at all common in my experience. In both of my billable environments, I’ve had those codes. I also think there’s something upthread about them where most people say it’s common to have them and “bill” to them sometimes. I could see if there was a limit to how much time they wanted you to bill to overhead or discouraged you from billing to them rather than the client, but I’ve always had them.

    4. Jessie the First (or second)*

      It is normal to not have admin/overhead codes – it is also normal to have them. That’s business preference.
      Some firms only want billing entries for things they can actually bill clients for.

      But IME, it isn’t normal to have a minimum billable time each week as high as yours if you are not allowed to count your admin time, because that’s work that has to get done – and you have to have 40 hours a week of actual billing time on top of it! That’s not normal. (For perspective, when I worked in a big law firm, the billable hour expectations were measured annually, but broken down into weeks, it was less than 40 hours of billing per week! And BigLaw is notorious for working people too hard.)

      1. HeatherB*

        I’m in consulting (like Hermit crab described) and at least at my firm we are definitely expected to be 100% billable. That is, the official target is something like 92% for my position, but I’m not given overhead codes except for occasional mandatory training. Most people probably have less than 10 hours a year billed to overhead. So the implicit direction is definitely to work for free.

  78. Raven*

    Is it normal for an organization to lose 6 of its 12 full-time/year-round staff in an 8-month period?

    There have been no changes to the highest leadership, that I’m aware of; if there had been it would be all over my industry’s news.

    1. peanutbutty*

      Could be normal(ish) if
      – they all started at company at a similar time
      – a similar/ relevant organisation was going on a recruitment drive
      – they had recently completed a major project which they may have struggled/ not wanted to leave mid-way through

      But I do think I would raise an eyebrow (or two) at that level of turnover

    2. Urdnot Bakara*

      50% turnover is pretty alarming, so I would say not normal, but I think we have to take a couple of things into consideration:
      1) how long had these 6 people been working there?
      2) 6 people in an 8-month period at a larger organization would probably be pretty normal
      3) in my experience at a small org. where everyone knows everyone well, one person leaving kind of creates a domino effect

    3. Wintermute*

      This is VERY field dependent. Some industries have high turnover, others not so much. Without knowing that I’m afraid I can’t really say.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      It can be normal based on the nature of the work and relationships people build. I’ve seen in good markets that many people leave because the job market is that hot and they got better money elsewhere. Also, one person found something, and trailed along a couple others, which in reality really was 2-3 people leaving on their own, and the others following their colleagues.

      Well, normal probably isn’t the right word. It’s not necessarily indicative of a larger trend or problem. It’s abnormally high. But as long as there aren’t other factors going on, it definitely can happen.

    5. EG*

      Need more context in order to know. For example, there are pockets in field where the entry-level employees are there to work for 2-3 years before moving on. So, you’d expect 1/2 of the positions to turnover every year.

    6. Overeducated*

      LOL, my department lost 6 of 8 in that time span. Not normal! In my case it was a combination of department level leadership changes and organization level treatment of low to mid-level staff.

  79. teapot terroir*

    My male boss takes of his tshirt and puts on a polo shirt in full naked torso view of everyone (before getting on a conference call or clients visiting).

    1. Raven*

      That seems quite weird. What kind of office setup do you have?

      Does your company not have an HR? I’d have thought after the fall of 2017, male bosses in particular would have been doubling down on, uh, not doing stuff like that.

    2. Sabrina*

      Not normal. I have worked with exactly one male boss that did that out of the 30-40 male bosses I’ve worked with or in the same office as. That boss also was sent to HR to have explained what was appropriate many times, and after a few years was encouraged to quit to avoid being fired.

    6. Amethystmoon*

      Very much not normal and depending on where this is happening, he could get really in hot water with HR.

    8. Someone Else*

      Normal if work is:
      Swimming pool/beach club/yacht club/gym/athletic center or similar
      Elsewhere not normal

      1. Quandong*

        I have never seen any of my bosses without their shirt on. In my experience what your boss is doing is not normal.

    9. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      Maybe he’s secretly hoping for a Harrison Ford in Working Girl moment of appreciation?

      I’d guess fairly abnormal but within the realm of one guy’s quirks, unless there’s other patterns of weirdness surrounding it. Some people are cavalier about changing in public.

      Though I wonder why he needs to change for a conference call?

  80. HighAltitudeChild*

    I’m managing a small day spa in a downtown setting. While working alone one day, a pervert came in and exposed himself/masturbated in front of me. Police were called, turns out the guy was a known sexual predator that also had some violent offenses on his record as well as armed robbery. He was arrested, but has been released on bail. Not only did I not get a mental health day or any sort of support immediately after the incident, when I expressed concerns over closing by myself at night and having to walk alone to my car, I was told that it’s not in the budget to be double staffed at that time and as the manager, I just need to suck it up and deal with it. Is this normal?

    1. Murphy*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you, and that you company was so shitty about it.

      I can’t speak to whether their reaction to that specific incident is normal (though I can’t imagine that it is), at my old job, my department was all young women. Every single night one of us closed alone and left after 9pm, in an isolated, dimly lit area. We expressed concern about this and management was like “Yeah, that sucks, but there’s nothing we can do.”

      1. Parenthetically*

        “there’s nothing we can do” almost always means, in a workplace context, “there’s nothing we’re willing to pay to do.”

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      For a small business? Yes, unfortunately that’s normal. I mean it’s not normal if they were asshats and unsympathetic about what happened, at least on a human level. But for a small business yes, it’s normal not to have the budget to double staff during closing and things like that, and they don’t have the staff/budget to provide things like support services.

      Did you ask for a day off after it happened? Honestly, if not, then while it would have been nice of them to offer, I am not surprised that they didn’t, although again, it would have been the compassionate and human thing to do. For companies without an EAP program or anything like that it’s not a automatic thing.

      1. HighAltitudeChild*

        I didn’t ask for a day off because I was too upset to be thinking clearly and I was in shock for several days after it happened. Once I watched the security camera footage from the incident, I discovered how close I came to it being a far more serious incident than just indecent exposure. He was lurking near the employee break room/bathrooms waiting to catch me alone (he didn’t) and in a vulnerable spot away from public view. That, coupled with the knowledge that he had a record of sexual battery and armed robbery, frightened me enough that over the next few days following the incident I had several moments at work where I would just start crying randomly and be unable to compose myself for a while. I also was unable to sleep for the next couple of weeks. I did report all of these things to my boss, but they didn’t seem at all concerned about my well being. I also asked if I could warn other businesses in our neighborhood and was told that it would be bad for our image if word got out about what happened and that I wasn’t supposed to talk about it to anyone. They even made me come in to work early the day after it happened to file the police report and meet the cops, by myself, offsite where customers and neighbors wouldn’t be able to see and question anything. So the day after the incident, I ended up working a 12 hour day instead of my normal 10 hour days.

        1. Sleepytime Tea*

          Don’t get me wrong. It’s completely crappy and they were incredibly insensitive. But I’ll give you an example. At a previous job we had a window washer fall off the building to his death. One of my coworkers was on the ground and literally saw him hit the pavement. They had to force him to take a day off and see a counselor. He didn’t want to and was truly unaffected. Now this was a larger company where we had EAP and things like that, so there were resources available and a somewhat standard operating procedure for what to do when employees witness something traumatic. But my point is that some people don’t see the need for the support and you would have to ask for it. It sounds like you were obviously shook up and they absolutely SHOULD have offered, and if I were your boss I absolutely would have, but it’s not shocking to me that they didn’t. As a small business, they probably had never encountered something like this before and don’t have any sort of plan.

          And unfortunately it isn’t abnormal that they don’t want to double staff for a closing shift. Whether it be because they don’t have the budget or it’s because there isn’t enough work to justify having two people there during that time. I worked for a small office that provided outpatient drug rehab counseling. It was downtown, and guess where the drug dealers liked to hang out? Recovering addicts are a pretty good target, and they knew what time all our clients left. I was fortunate enough that I didn’t have to walk to my car alone very often because the counselor’s would leave at the same time as me. But even then I started paying for parking so I could be closer to the building because I wasn’t guaranteed to have someone available to walk with me.

          I’m not saying any of what happened to you is ok or that your employer’s reaction is ok. But if the question is “is this normal,” sadly, in my experience the answer is yes. There are definitely downsides to working for small businesses, and unfortunately this is one of the ones that you never really think about, and hopefully never would need to think about, but it does happen.

          I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through all this. I know your employer didn’t really offer you any support, but have you been able to find some elsewhere? Counseling? It’s a traumatic experience and it’s totally understandable that you would develop anxiety from it. I believe you should actually be able to file a claim under worker’s comp for treatment for post traumatic stress, and honestly if you are experiencing anxiety and breakdowns at work because of what happened, you probably qualify to file a claim and then you wouldn’t be paying for it out of pocket. The timeline for reporting the claim and seeking treatment varies by state (you can google that) and I really hope you’ll consider looking into that if you’re still struggling.

    3. WellRed*

      They could make this work if they wanted to, even if the owner has to close with you or find money in the budget for a solution. They don’t care so they won’t bother. I care and I am sorry this happened to you.

      1. HighAltitudeChild*

        Thanks, I appreciate that. I agree that they don’t care so they won’t bother. This is something that I have been thinking about a lot ever since it happened and I definitely question how much longer I want to continue to work for a company that can’t even make a minimal effort for my safety and comfort. They expect a lot from me and give back very little in return.

  81. Anonymously Lovely*

    For context, I work in corporate finance at a mid-sized company in a major city. There’s a handful of us to support the entire firm (with multiple offices). I’m newish (1 year) to this sub-field within my industry, but have always worked within this broader finance field and studied it in college.

    The way this department is run – it seems like EVERYTHING is a fire drill or needs to be prioritized and done ASAP. I came from a client-facing role before and once in a while if something urgent popped up, we’d handle it, but most of the time tasks were pretty well prioritized and scheduled.

    I feel like corporate finance is an area where things should be mostly under control, especially compared to a client facing role! Everything that pops up always needs to be done today or tomorrow, which gets frustrating when I’m constantly prioritizing the new/ad-hoc things (that are mostly used internally within the company and, from my perspective, don’t usually have any obvious urgency to them) that pop up with my reoccurring tasks.

    To summarize: is it normal to be so disorganized for this field?

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      Totally normal. I swear, working in finance practically everything is a fire drill. Now the reasons behind it have different levels of normalcy.

      C-suite constantly asks for stuff for last minute meetings? Normal fire drill.
      No one is assigned to run a certain report and so it’s always forgotten about? Not normal fire drill.
      Crappy software/reporting/systems cause failures and things constantly need to be re-done? Normal fire drill.

      People freak out about money. My most stressful, hectic jobs have been in finance and revenue. Everything has to be done RIGHT NOW.

    2. Wintermute*

      Work in fintech IT. Pretty normal. There’s so much regulatory red tape and internal process controls that the best of intentions to get started early and get all the ducks in a row can turn into a last minute panic when the stars fail to align and the elaborate processes don’t flow smoothly. Add in the staggering complexity of fintech infrastructure and the fact because it all has to be secure-coded (or should be by best practices) most of this stuff is being done with outdated, antiquated programs just because we know they work? Yeah, very normal. Then top it off with high-strung customers, overpromising client liaisons and it gets even more normal.

      1. FinTech Engineer*

        worked for a fintech company in Programming/IT and I second this. It’s a big reason to think carefully before joining another fintech company.

    3. RandomU...*

      My finance department causes fire drills in other departments, so one more data point for you.

  82. No cake for you?*

    Is it normal for employees to expect treats, small parties, etc. as a “thank you” for completing projects? I’m a relatively new manager of a small-ish team and I like treats and parties too (!), but I feel like my staff members expect something after completing every project. I may sound a little heartless, but parties and treats are expensive, and our budget is relatively small! Plus I don’t love the optics of it. I give verbal praise and acknowledge people’s hard work, but I don’t think parties/treats are always (ever?) warranted in the workplace for simply completing your work. Am I way off base, or is this normal?

    1. Asenath*

      It’s not normal in my job. In fact, it never seems to happen. We do sometimes share treats on an informal basis.

    3. MuseumChick*

      I think YMMV, but in my experience/opinion, no this is not normal. The only time I remember this happening was in grad school. After a particularly difficult group project that the entire class worked on one of our professors brought in cookies for us.

    4. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      This happens about once a year where I work, and it may follow a particularly arduous task, but it’s not common in my experience. Absolutely not common to do after every project.

      1. Bubbleon*

        +1 we’ve had some jobs where it’s all hands on deck for 2-3 weeks of 18 hour days, and you bet management has taken a group out to lunch or ordered a decent catered lunch in office for that group, but it’s not common or expected.

        Personally, it feels more meaningful when recognition like that is infrequent and unpredictable. It gets old if everyone gets a pizza party every time they finish a job.

    5. Youth*

      It’s normal in my job to have a lunch or some kind of dessert 0n the company’s dime after a successful project. We tend to celebrate everything, though (ask me about our Pi Day/St. Patrick’s Day snacks-and-dessert shindig a few weeks ago and our birthday luncheon next week).

    6. Sedna*

      No, treats and parties aren’t normal. We will occasionally bring in treats to share with each other here, but nothing beyond that. What I have really appreciated is a thank you for my work, either in person or through an email- I like to save those to my personal folder and read them when I’m feeling down or overwhelmed.

    7. E*

      I think it depends on the industry. Call centers and such can be so monotonous to work, so getting a small treat now and then from managers is nice. I’ve seen where the managers set goals for the team and then reward them. But just treats/parties after a completed project in the normal course of business, maybe not every time.

    8. Anonymous Poster*

      Not normal for small things. You are not off base. I’d try and figure out where this is coming from and address it head on. Maybe a previous manager did this, and you just need to say, “I know Franklin did this, but we simply do not have the budget for this. I want each and every one of you to know that I do appreciate your work, and recognize your efforts. But we no longer can afford to do extra things like this, because I think the best way I can thank all of you is by saving money and fighting to get raises for you all every year.”

      Modify as needed. Best of luck.

    9. Middle Manager*

      On a rare occasion for a particularly significant project, it’s a nice thing to do. But I don’t think it’s required. And I definitely don’t think managers should be required to do it on a regular basis. I think the culture also matters though. If every other manager is doing it (or most) and you aren’t, then the optics won’t look great for you. Might be worth seeking some consistency across managers if that’s part of the problem.

    10. ENFP in Texas*

      “Expect”? No. They’re getting a paycheck for doing their jobs. They’re not doing you a special favor for completing their work.

      If someone goes ABOVE AND BEYOND their regular job to complete a project, then that’s another story.

    12. Someone Else*

      Some corporate cultures do this frequently, so it’s not unheard of to encounter it, but to EXPECT it as a default is not normal.

  83. ag47*

    Is it normal to expect entry-level employees to put in unpaid “professional development” work off-the-clock?

    For context, this was my first job out of college. A few months in, they asked everyone to read and present reports of business-related books (like Who Moved My Cheese). I took the position that it was not reasonable to ask me to put in the amount of time it took to read a book and present it to the office after work hours and basically just never took a turn presenting a report. I was (probably misclassified) an exempt employee working 50+ hours per week at a very low salary ($35,000, in NYC). I was fired for “not fitting in with the culture.” In hindsight, I dodged a bullet (there were other sketchy things happening there), but I was curious if I was actually justified in refusing to do the work, considering it was (theoretically) for my own benefit, at least in part, and I was (theoretically) properly classified as an exempt employee.

      1. Pop*

        Unless they were truly misclassified due to the type of work they do (which is not super common), this was probably not illegal! Just not a fun situation to be in.

        1. Wintermute*

          It’s a grey area, exempt status is not a free license to demand as much work as you like from employees, even though many employers treat it that way there are limits, especially because given their low wage that unpaid time may have taken them below minimum wage, and even for exempt employees your wage cannot be below actual time worked * minimum wage.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Eh… it really depends on your industry. When you are an exempt employee, you’re never really “off the clock” in some industries.

      Reasonable to ask you to give a book report? Yeah I would call that pretty weird but honestly not unheard of. That said, it’s also not really acceptable to be given a task and to just totally drop the ball on it without a word. If you had an issue with it, then you should have spoken with your boss about it. If you work in an industry where continuous development is expected, and that some of it is expected to be outside of office hours, and you’re exempt, and you were specifically directed to do something and refused to do it, well… that’s not justified.

      1. Anax*

        Yep. For instance, in my experience, it’s fairly normal for IT folks to be expected to do some professional development on their own time. You might be told that you need to get a particular certification within [x] time, and while the company is providing training materials, you’re expected to do most of the studying outside normal work hours. There’s also an expectation in much of IT that you’ll have a sense of industry trends and general knowledge, and that might be done during slow workdays, or it might be done outside normal work hours, especially in a first job out of college where you’re coming in without that background knowledge.

        I think that unless you’re in a job where knowledge of general business practices is useful, that particular KIND of book is a little weird – it looks like Who Moved My Cheese is kind of a pop-psych book?

        My experience has been much more with specific skillbuilding – like, ‘you need to learn to use SQL’, or ‘you need to get a Network+ certification within six months’, or ‘you need to know what programming languages would be appropriate for new projects.’

        Maybe if you were in a managerial or HR track, it would make more sense, but if you’re not in a “people-focused” field, that part seems a little odd to me.

    3. Pop*

      It sounds like you were underpaid for the amount of work/region you were being asked to do, but at some places (especially with entry-level jobs), that’s pretty typical. I think pushing back is very normal, flat-out refusing to do work that you are assigned (with exceptions for things that are unethical or illegal) is taking a pretty strong stance. You clearly didn’t think it was a good use of your time – and I agree with you! – but often your manager gets to make that call, not you.

    4. Gumby*

      I feel like you missed a prime opportunity to do a report on any number of Dilbert books. The powerpoint makes itself…

    5. Michaela*

      Normal in my field (tech), but gross. A lot of places expect employees to contribute to open-source projects on their own time, or want candidates to have open-source contribution history in order to be considered. I hate it.

      I had a similar experience in my first job out of college, when I was asked to read and review the CEO’s book about management, I was politely reserved about it (I read really fast, so refusing to skim a 150-page book wasn’t a hill I wanted to die on), and was fired maybe two weeks later for not being a culture fit. (Read: I had boundaries and didn’t want to go to karaoke with coworkers.)

      1. Anax*

        Yeah, I hate that one too. I don’t have the darn energy to do coding AFTER work. This is my job, not my all-consuming passion – and while I kinda like research and I understand the need to keep on top of work-related technologies, the “list your github account!!!” on job applications drives me nuts.

  84. Nervous Accountant*

    apologies in advance if this has already been covered. I tried to search for this but did not find my specific question about 360 feedback. If not good here, I can repost in an open thread.

    So…360 feedback. In my understanding this is when you, as the employee, give feedback to your supervisor/manager/boss. Otherwise, the default is always “as a supervisor they are allowed to give you feedback” (at least..that’s my default). I honestly don’t recall doing this when my boss or manager gave me feedback.

    I’ve heard this term here but I don’ tthink I’ve ever seen it in practice.

    Lately I’ve noticed that when feedback is given, the employee tends to say “well YOU’RE doing this wrong”

    This is not just me but I’ve heard of it happening to others as well.

    Is that normal?

    Also, if I am way wrong and off base in my definition, please correct me if I am wrong.

    Thank you

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      A 360 review is usually when one person, let’s call him Jim, gets feedback from people at all levels of the organization. His reports, his peers, his supervisor, maybe even his grandboss. In my experience it’s usually done through a survey instrument so the info is aggregated and anonymized, at least the data from the direct reports.

      A 360 review isn’t really a feedback meeting where you give your boss feedback.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Oh wow! I was sooooooo wrong then haha

        So, is there a term for “Boss, I want to give YOU feedback”? Again, my default thinking was always they give you feedback and you do not give them feedback,.. out of respect? and doing that, is that normal?

        1. Pop*

          The idea is that, for whatever reason, they are the boss, and expectations mean that they are managing you. Their job, among other things, is to help your work and guide you as an employee – so they give you feedback. You don’t really have standing to offer them feedback, unless it directly affects you and it’s a suggestion, not a mandate. “Could we try (meeting once a week instead of once every other week/giving me more information about the reports before you ask me to run them/switching to asking questions over chat instead of email)? I think it would really help my productivity because (x). We could just do it on a trial basis and see how it goes.”

        2. boredatwork*

          Hey Nervous – I too like to give upward feedback. I call them “wrap-up” meetings. We discussed what went well/what can be improved, this usually gives me an opening to slyly suggest that boss do thing differently.

          It’s all under the guise of continually improving, receiving real-time feedback and planning for the future. Really I just want to sneak in 5 mins of “DEAR GOD STOP THIS ONE THING”. So far it’s been working.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            I’m pretty sure we’ve had this happen but under different guise… “What can we do to improve next season? To make this an effective season” etc etc. as well as post mortems.

            now that I think about it there are sooooo many things I wish I could’ve said to my boss. LOL.

            I’m seeing this happens so much that I wonder if my own default thinking needs to change.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      360 as in full-circle–all levels give feedback to each other. They are usually at least theoretically anonymous but in practice they often are not. I know people who think they are a great tool but I’ve seen them abused, too. We stopped doing them at my current job when several people coordinated to complain about our rather abrasive but very effective chief counsel. She had 360s ditched. So much for that.

    3. Gumby*

      The reaction is… probably normal but not encouraging. When I worked someplace with 360 reviews we did indeed both give and receive feedback from managers, peers, etc. We also gave feedback to the company as a whole. Usually the results of that would come up in a company-wide meeting (small company, happened every Monday, lunch provided) like “several people requested that we do 401k matches. We can’t afford that yet, but we will keep it in mind.” (They were added a year or so later.) So it was clear that they were reading the feedback too.

  85. Morning Glory*

    I have a manager who has no visibility into any of the projects I am working on, and mainly just handles the admin side of management, e.g. time cards, time off requests, etc.
    I know that this is not unheard of but am worried about the potential impacts it will have on me, since this person cannot give me constructive criticism on my work, won’t be able to speak to my contributions to the team when it comes time for determining raises or promotions, and won’t be able to give me a meaningful reference later on. Has anyone else had a similar setup, and what were the ramifications of it?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It happens in matrix organizations. You end up using the managers who do know your work as references. Ideally, the actual reporting manager is talking to all the other managers.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Exactly. My supervisor during that time was great and met with me 2 times a month and spoke to the people I worked with daily to get info on my annual performance evaluations.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yep, I’ve been there. I was an analyst for an operational team, so I was the only one who knew anything about my job. My supervisor largely just said “I don’t know how you do what you do, but everything is awesome, so keep doing it.”

      I did find a couple of ways to at least help with the situation so that my boss kind of understood what I did and could give a meaningful reference. I did highly technical work, he did not. So for example, I created an entirely new process for our primary monthly report. I built a database, automated it, etc. In one of our meetings, I showed him how the old process worked and how long it took (as much as 20 hours). Then I clicked the button for my new automated process, let him watch all the little check marks turn green, and said “it’s done now.” Less than 5 minutes. It was awesome. Now did he understand how all that worked? No. But he did have a much better understanding of how exactly I was contributing. When called as a reference, he now could say things like “she automated this process and saved us 20 hours a month” because he had actually “seen” it.

      I also did a little presentation for my team. None of them understand the work I did either. So I put together a 15 minute thing where I showed them some things that I could do that could help them. I wanted them to know what I did at a high level, and how those things could help them. You run this report manually and it takes forever? Come see me. You want a way to track your project better than a crappy sharepoint calendar? Come see me. It gave them (including my boss) some insight into what skills I had.

      As far as growing in my role, it was hard, because I couldn’t get much in the way of feedback. So I instead did online trainings for development purposes. At one job I set up a training program for other analysts on different teams on a new piece of software we had. This was also great for networking just inside my own company so that when I ran into issues I had other people doing at least similar work that I could go to for feedback.

      Unfortunately in this situation you have to put in a little more work to make sure that your work has visibility. But the upside that I experienced was having so much beautiful, wonderful, joyful flexibility in what I did and how I did it. I got to be creative. I got to do things in a wonderfully standardized way. I got to do a lot of professional development. So if you are willing to put in that extra effort with your boss, you can end up getting a lot out of it.

      My recommendation from him when I moved out of state was stellar. He was completely able to speak to my contributions to the team. And guess what? The HR recruiter doesn’t understand my job either, so it’s not like they were asking specific questions at that level anyway.

    3. Wintermute*

      Very, very normal in IT/data center/telecom engineering-side where there is a hard line between engineers and managers where, once your cross that line, the lower you are on the org chart the more technical skills you have in most cases, managers and supervisors just don’t have the technical acumen to be able to evaluate your work. In cases like that though there are usually still engineers or subject-matter experts who ARE higher-skilled than you are who can provide you feedback. Good organizations seek out that feedback, other places you might have to seek it on your own.

      If you ARE the SME then it’s very normal for no one in the organization to really be equipped to give you feedback: our radiofrequency guys had masters’ degrees in their field and decades of experience, who is going to tell them the way they implemented a new frequency plan was wrong?

      In cases like the latter, a good boss can still evaluate your work because the proof is in the pudding. Those radio guys may not have had anyone with the knowledge to technically evaluate their work but they certainly could see the customer-facing performance impacts of what they’d designed. systems architects can be evaluated on budgetary adherence, uptime and what issues they’ve had come up, and so on.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      This can be normal in many contexts.

      In my experience, it happened in small contracting firms with the government. But my management reached out to people that knew my work regularly and asked how things were going, so they could have something to give back to me. I’d ask your manager how they’re planning on doing this, and help put them in touch with the right people you work with that can comment intelligently about your work. That also helps you build your manager up to be a good reference. But you’re going to have to proactively manage your manager and set them up for success.

  86. Self-Supervised*

    How normal (or not) is it that I don’t know who, if anyone, manages me? I’ve worked here for 3 years. There are reasons that explain the apparent lack of a supervisor, and the long term employees don’t seem to think it’s weird, but I’ve never heard of someone as relatively junior as a receptionist would be self-supervised.

    I work the front desk, my highest priority non-reception work is for Accounting, but I also do a bit for Customer Service and have worked with HR in the past, although I don’t have any current projects with them. I was hired and trained by the Executive Assistant, a position that no longer exists and had no direct reports. I was told by HR the Controller was my supervisor, but he swore six ways from Sunday that had to be a mistake. I can see where he’s coming from, since he had no part in hiring or training me and the EA referred to the position as “his receptionist.” I later learned the EA referred to the position that way because he was the one who convinced the (former) GM there was a need for one.

    As it turned out the EA only trained me in tasks where our work overlapped and left me to figure out the rest of my job on my own. After the first 18 months or so, the Controller was willing to sign off on any paperwork HR needed, but under protest. Last year the Controller left. There has been a bunch of restructuring, actually, with newly created positions here and in the head office in another state, and a good amount of turnover in management now that more of the decision-making is being done in the head office. One of the newish positions based in the head office is between the Controller (who may or may not have been my boss) and the DFO. I think she’s my grandboss, but I have almost no contact with her and she’s on maternity leave anyway. I really, really don’t think the DFO

    At this point it seems ludicrous to ask who my boss is.

    1. RandomU...*

      That’s weird… but sadly I’m finding out is common enough that it’s becoming cliche.

      In theory, you report to someone at least on paper; who approves your vacation requests? Sign off on your timecard? I think I’d just go to HR and ask, if nothing else it can alert them to the fact that there’s a problem, even if you don’t bring it up as such. I’d keep it casual since it doesn’t sound like it’s been a big problem for you. You can use the controller/reorg as the catalyst.

      “HR Henry, quick question… After Controller Connie left I sort of lost track of who my boss is, any idea? No big deal, just was wondering who get’s that nifty “Best Boss” coffee mug I bought at a garage sale this weekend”

      Either that or find out who gives out the best Christmas presents and ask to join their team :) I mean if nobody’s going to claim you, you might as well pick your own, right?

      1. Self-Supervised*

        It feels like a temporary situation that’s going to be resolved soon, but there’s always a higher priority to attend to first. For me, it’s one of those things that’s not a problem until it is. As for who signs off for vacation, the short answer is I don’t take any. That’s not entirely true, but since my last vacation in 2017, I have only requested days off for FMLA and the kind of things that decent employers don’t deny requests for, like a wedding and meeting with social services that may have led to a kinship placement. (In the end, the kids didn’t have to be removed from the home.) It’s kind of not a problem until it is.

        That’s a good suggestion, to ask casually, and I probably will.

    2. Juniantara*

      This is a bad sign for the health and organization of the company, but I know of situations like this. However, a year without anyone noticing or commenting borders on a record! Congrats!
      Seriously though, this is a sign of a super dysfunctional company.

    3. Middle Manager*

      That would be very not normal in most positions, but I’ve seen it happen with front desk or other clerical staff before, especially when they are “shared” by a number of staff members. But I think it’s bad practice. And I think it would be super okay for you to go to someone in a management role and let them know you’d like some clarity on who you report to.

    4. Someone Else*

      This is not normal, but if you’re looking for a way to find out without sounding ludicrous, you could ask if there is an org chart? Answer might be no, but if there is one you can see where you currently are in it.

  87. AnonymouslyAnxious*

    I recently returned to work after a period of long term sickness (7 weeks). While I was off, the head office introduced a new system for managers to do performance reviews with all employers (retail chain store). Prior to my absence I worked for 1 year with Manager A who quit just before my absence, and then on a different department for 2 weeks with Manager B. When I returned, I went back to my original department with a new Manager C.

    Two weeks of being back and Manager B calls me in for a performance review and I do a self evaluation first, being told to do it on my whole time with the company so I rate myself (scale of 1 to 5) as 3s and 4s (average and good). She shows me her evaluation filled out with all 1s, the lowest rating, because I was absent. The categories are things like team working, productivity, presentation and reliability. I’m now on an improvement plan because of my low scores, to be carried out by Manager B who is no longer my manager.

    I feel its really unusual to be penalised across all categories for being on long term absence, but my new Manager C is acting as though its completely normal. Am I the one out of sync here or are they? I am in the UK.

    1. MuseumChick*

      This is not normal. Sounds like people in management roles who don’t know how to manage.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Absolutely not normal. You should not be judged on the work you didn’t do while you were out sick.

      I actually would contact the head office HR, and hopefully they could resolve this by turning off the PIP. It a waste of everyone’s time because you were rated low because you were out sick.

    4. Weegie*

      I don’t see how anyone can evaluate you on work you weren’t doing because you were off sick at the time – so no, not normal. Worth taking up with head office, I should think, since they were the ones who instituted the policy. Hopefully they’ll be glad to know that one of their managers is a numpty who has misinterpreted the employee evaluation process.

      1. AnonymouslyAnxious*

        I’m in the UK so I’m not sure if the same rules apply with absences and retaliation but I’ll see if I can look into it

        2. Wintermute*

          The UK has actual labor rights, unlike the US, so I would be somewhat surprised if the US made retaliating against people for taking legally-protected leave illegal but the UK had no such provisions. Worth a call to a solicitor if you’re concerned this could impact your employment.

    6. musical chairs*

      I’m not an employment lawyer and I’m not sure where you are but if you’re in the US and your leave was covered under FMLA, it might be worth it to check if this situation could be considered functionally the same thing as retaliation for using FMLA. Your employment is being threatened directly because you were away, which is the exactly the thing against which FMLA exists to protect.

    7. Galahad*

      Not normal. You should get a rating that reflects the work you did prior to absence, assuming you have worked there for 6 months before that. They can still put you on notice that future extended absences will lead to termination (with or without cause) because they do need an actual body in your role, but they can still give you an average rating.

      If you only worked there 1-2 months, then away for 2 months, yeah, I can see why they would default to all 1’s. There are quite a few people working retail that may not have actually been “sick” for those 7 weekds. I am sure you have seen it, and now you get to be lumped under that suspicion, too. Normally I would just refuse to give an evaluation on that employee until they are 3 months in their role (and present). Some companies force it, however, and some supervisors actually get very little training on what to do for the exceptions.

      You could try to ask for a deferal of the feedback for another 2 months now that you are back, or ask for a second review after another 3 months, etc.

    8. Ruby Thursday*

      UK person here. This sounds really, really dodgy and not remotely normal.

      I would highly recommend you contact ACAS (see ACAS dot org dot UK) who give good free advice.

    9. Someone Else*

      Not normal. You can’t be rated lowest in performance for a period in which you weren’t there on the basis of not being there, unless the absence were unexcused and they thought you’d abandoned the job, but if that were the case you wouldn’t be getting reviewed, you’d have been fired already. This is preposterous. However, it’s also retail, home of all the most preposterous work things most people ever encounter. So, not really shocking.

  88. Anna Backwards*

    Normal or not normal: a project management team has no plans for role development and advancement, even though it seems to be an industry standard. Also, I’ve requested more direct management twice, and have not received it.

    Context: I’ve been with my company for 2 years, and in the 2nd lowest-rung role with the project management team for almost 12 months. In that time, we’ve had crazy turnover (I’ve had 8 managers in less than 2 years — I know there are other problems here.) which has meant no one with decent experience has been keeping track of my growth or training. I expressed my frustration about this in November, and was told I deserve a more direct, hands on manager. A PM was assigned to our project, and he… is rarely ever involved, and certainly not in person. I expressed my frustration with this a few weeks ago, and, among a few other more positive things, was met with a general message of “it could be so much worse.” I received a raise a week later that brought my pay up to market value after that conversation, but I know there are still no plans to change my management concern. Our company (HQ is based a state away and we are a newer satellite office) released a development matrix for my role and the one above, but I still rarely meet with anyone except the role directly above mine. It does not help that the person in the role above me (my only daily coworker) is an incredibly negative, “we don’t actually need to do/watch/partake in anything training-related,” bigger-than-his-britches kind of guy, who doesn’t take my concern about training and experience seriously. And I should say — I’m not frustrated with this because I feel as though I deserve a promotion or a higher title; I just want to see a more clear path forward in my career, and I feel as though I’m being told to just deal with no path at all.

    Am I expecting too much from my company, and should I just harder pursue training and leadership from them? It’s hard to advocate to be trained when, by virtue of my newness in the role, I don’t know what I need to be trained in. It just seems like because I’m so junior in this role, I should be learning as much as possible with as much background as possible. Our lack of development is starkly different from what I know of the industry — other on-par employers I have contacts with have great programs, and others I don’t know boast such programs just in their ads — but some people at my office say the small team aspect is really beneficial and unlike anything we’d get anywhere else. That said, I know there are zero plans for me to get other experience in different projects within our group.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The fact that you know that it’s pretty different from the industry norms I think answers your question. It also probably helps to explain the high turn over. For your future career, consider making a move somewhere else that does have development.

    2. LQ*

      I do think that no clear path forward in your company is fairly common, some companies look at promote/grow from within, but plenty of others don’t. I work at some place that only promotes from within, has official formal development programs, and I’m someone who has been to them and is looked at as someone who will be promoted and I still feel like there isn’t a lot of really strong development for me, certainly no one has put together a plan for me and I know I’m going to have to get pushy at some point with my boss to get a promotion. I think a lot of it is something that you often have to do yourself or bring to the table and ask for. I also think a lot of the really good development doesn’t come from training as much as informal mentoring, which if you can find someone to do that for you I highly recommend it.

    3. Galahad*

      This is a great example of the classic “sink or swim”. You are on your own to figure it out.

      Unfortunately, this is pretty normal for Project Management teams. They form and reform in new groupings all the time according to projects, so unless the company makes an effort, they don’t actually expect the project manager or general manager to train others, everyone is expected to come in knowing their basic role and when assigned a task by the PM, to know exactly what that means. Often the good companies will provide basic training (“Here are the PM templates we use”, “Let’s talk about how we manage risk on a project”), or provide a senior techinical “quality” person to provide feedback to others, or heck, even a checklist of what to do is helpful at times for lack of anything else. I have found the training , when offered, is available every 1-2 years.

      It’s not great, and it means that you need to seek professional development outside of your company, or a mentor / peer to help you out on your own.

  89. AliV*

    I work at a non-profit and our expense policy mandates that we cannot tip over 20%. Is it normal that the finance department audits all our expense reports and deducts pennies if we tip over 20%?

    I don’t care about the pennies, but there are many employees who travel for work and checking all these tips must consume a large part of someone’s job. It seems like a huge waste of resources.

    Is there some law that they have to do this to comply with?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      It’s normal that a tip percentage is spelled out in the travel policy, but I think highly unusual and a complete waste of time for someone to manually audit the tip percentage, and completely unethical to deduct tip overage from an employee’s paycheck.

      I’m a fundraiser at a university and our travel policy lists an expectation of 15-20% for tips, except in situations where you end up at a restaurant for longer than the average meal (due to a long meeting or working at your computer) in which you should tip over 20% to make up for the extra time.

    2. De Minimis*

      Not normal. I used to work at a federally funded non-profit, we didn’t have that type of policy and people could tip whatever they wanted to tip and we were fine with it without any sort of additional audit.

      I know for us the only real requirements were we couldn’t use federal funds for alcohol, for anything that could be construed as lobbying, and for late payments/interest. Other than that we were pretty much good so long as we could account for all expenses down to the penny.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Normal. A line has to be drawn somewhere and it has to be enforced. You would be shocked at the type of outrageous tipping people try to get away with on the company dime.

      Now in my current company, they don’t care as long as it’s within $1 of 20%. But yes, every tip is manually checked. Just the other day I was chatting with the person who does all our expense reports at work and she told me about someone who tried to tip $100 on a $15 bar tab.

      Every company I have worked at spells out the tipping policy and will bounce your expense report back if you tipped over the line. And trust me, it’s not like they’re (usually) sitting over receipts with a calculator. It gets entered into a system that handles it.

    4. Crystal*

      It depends (the correct answer to every accounting question, ever). If your company uses a large, third-party system this kind of checking is built in and it’s done by AI (bots) not people. If your company uses a clerk to check paper receipts, then it’s not normal.

    5. Wintermute*

      Sadly normal, because some people have tried to cheat the system by working out elaborate overtipping-but-you-give-me-something-I-can’t-expense arrangements with waitstaff where, say, they tip 20% plus an extra 9.95 and a mixed drink valued at 9.95 magically shows up on their table. It sucks, but I understand that companies have to protect their pocketbooks from abuse. It’s strange to have it individually audited, usually they simply make it a disciplinary issue, but frankly I’d rather have a reimbursement shaved a few pennies than face a write-up, given the choice.

    6. Anonymous Poster*

      Can’t comment on the law, but it is normal to for a tip policy to be spelled out in some places. As far as the auditing goes, I haven’t seen the level you’re talking about where each report is audited to that level. That’s not normal in my experience.

    7. Natalie*

      The fact that you’re in a non-profit specifically makes this very normal – not by law, per se, but it comes from an overall ethical obligation to be good stewards of donor funds, which includes not spending wastefully. Obviously you could make a completely valid argument that the tip percentage should be set higher, I’m just speaking to the existence of the policy and the requirement that the employee reimburse overages in the first place.

      My NFP also requires reimbursement if you lose your receipt, but we are needlessly controversial and thus under the microscope constantly.

    8. Middle Manager*

      We have the same policy (state government). We can tip beyond 20% if we want, but we won’t be reimbursed the difference. I usually just tip cash if someone did a great job and I want to avoid any hassle about my receipts.

    9. Antilles*

      That’s actually fairly normal in my experience. It’s kind of dumb that they go to the level of doing the exact math and deducting pennies, but especially given that you’re dealing with donor money, it’s not insane.
      That said, I would like to append that it’s at least good that your company set the bar at 20%. I’ve heard of a few companies that set the ‘standard’ tip at 15%, which is both a subpar tip AND a huge hassle for everyone involved when you go with a group and that ‘standard’ tip doesn’t match the automatic 18% gratuity.

    10. NotAnotherManager!*

      Having an expense policy is totally normal, deducting pennies from expense reports is not. I get an exception notice from the automated system if someone, for instance, rounds a max-percent $4.83 tip to $5, but I can override the exception and approve that, and no one’s ever dinged the employee’s reimbursement for their $0.17.

    11. noahwynn*

      The 20% policy seems normal, although I’ve worked in places where they left it to your best judgement as well. I’ve never had a company audit it down to the penny though, at least I’ve never been called on it. I always round up to the nearest whole dollar to make the math easy on the receipt.

    12. Mediamaven*

      It’s normal and completely fair. If everyone is doing it, it can be costly to a company. Trust me, it’s amazing how little value people place on money that isn’t theirs.

    13. Cathie from Canada*

      Wouldn’t the more normal approach be to have “per diem” amounts set for breakfast, lunch and dinner? IE, breakfast $10, lunch $15, dinner $25. When I traveled for work, I submitted receipts for hotels and transportation, but for meals I just got paid the per diem rate regardless of what I actually spent, with the amount pro-rated depending on the time of day I left or returned. For some cities the per diem wasn’t enough to actually cover my meal costs, but for others I didn’t spend as much, so over time it evened out.

    14. Wet Noses*

      Any chance the name of this non-profit starts with the letter “A?” I worked at one such NPO that had employees write checks to the org if they tipped more than 20%–sometimes the checks were for less than $1.

      1. AliV*

        Ha no, doesn’t start with an A!

        I use my personal card. But for those that use the business card, the finance department goes to our department head to collect the extra pennies.

    15. AliV*

      I’m sorry I wasn’t clear! My question is not about the 20% rule. 20% seems completely normal. It’s that we are auditing each and every receipt with a tip on it to the penny. As a donor to the organization myself this seems like a misuse of resources. I’m not recommending zero auditing, but using a calculator for each of the thousands of receipts generated in a year seems like overkill.

  90. Just wondering*

    Alison, perhaps we could use a word other than “normal” for this question (or future ones like it)? Perhaps “ok” or “ethical” or something else?

    Normal means it is common, but a lot of bad behavior is common. Common doesn’t mean it’s ok and I don’t think it’s being overly focused on semantics to want to differentiate.

    1. Parenthetically*

      No, I think that’s exactly the point of the thread! NOT judging whether or not something is ethical, but whether or not it’s common. Lots of things are normal in a particular field that might nonetheless be morally not ok, or just intolerable, and thus worth leaving a job over.

      1. MuseumChick*

        Yup. I’m reminded of the the thread a while back where Alison asked people to share what was common in their industry that would shock others. I remember a lot of people in advertisement talking about day drinking.

        1. Just wondering*

          Ah I see! Ok, that distinction makes sense.

          I do think in the future it might make sense to say “common” as opposed to “normal” because people use the word normal in two different ways — what tends to happen and what is ok to happen. Might reduce ambiguity :)

        2. Morning Glory*

          I think the title makes it a bit confusing. There are a lot of things that may be really common but also are not okay like Just Wondering said.

          Implying that if something is common/normal, it would be “too picky” to object to it is, in a sense, really saying that it is okay.

      3. Anon this time*

        Agree – I think ideally the answers on this thread should be able to answer the question: “If I leave this job for a similar one in another company, would I still face the same issues?” Depending on the industry, I think this might be the case, even if it is toxic, immoral stuff.

    2. npoworker*

      I would love an “is this ethical” or “is this okay” thread too. I have a question that I know is not “normal” but am curious if it’s even ethical that I would love ppl’s advice on

      1. Pop*

        I feel like that is almost all of the questions on this website! Just submit your question to Alison or bring it up in the Friday open thread.

      2. Bubbleon*

        That could get very messy, very fast. Different cultures have different understandings of what’s “ok” and I don’t even want to think about getting into the weeds of what’s ethical or not after some of the debates that have happened in comment sections of regular letters.

    3. Wintermute*

      That’s the point of this thread. Employers behave badly, all the time. But sometimes it’s valuable to know “this abuse is common in this field, you won’t escape it by changing jobs, you’d have to change fields” or even “yeah, this is really shitty but welcome to labor rights in the US– you don’t have any– everyone does this other than exceptionally kind/ethical employers”. It’s important to distinguish crappy things that you can’t escape from a **uniquely** awful office situation you could avoid by looking for another employer.

    4. Gloucesterina*

      A lot of folks are translating “normal” to “common,” so common could be a good alternative it that it’s descriptive and not judgmental. Certainly, judgment may well be warranted, and I am noticing that most commenters are making the distinction between what’s common/not common, ethical/not ethical, best practice/bad practice in their responses, and all the intersecting areas of these.

      1. Gloucesterina*

        Although – I do like normal as the umbrella term in the sense that it’s good to be able to identify what one rightly feels uncomfortable about, vs. things that are very common in a given field, may be uncomfortable to some, and therefore may function as a sign that those people might find more professional satisfaction in different role/field?

        1. Gloucesterina*

          I’m thinking things like the letter about the museum intern who was uncomfortable with the professional code of ethics in museums, libraries, etc. where the imperative is to serve all members of the public, regardless of whether a given member of the public may be a terrible person.

          2. Clisby*

            Or the employee who was uncomfortable with the level of profanity in the workplace (not directed at her, just in general conversation.) I think the business was trucking or construction – anyway, somewhere I would expect swearing to be really, really common. Nothing wrong with objecting to profanity, but maybe a construction company isn’t the place to get that objection taken care of.

  91. Cymru*

    I worked at a place for a year and 3 months, on my resume this is the second longest job I’ve held (early career, lots of term contracts/summer gigs).
    I want to make sure that it’s not weird to leave this place off a reference list because I cannot trust that they would give me a good reference due to the nature of the people/company and not because I was a bad employee.
    I have other references, all of them more inline with my career path, so I’m not hurting on that front. I just want to be sure that this gap won’t look strange.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Just because they are on your resume doesn’t mean they would be a reference. A prospective employer may verify your employment there, but if you don’t want them to be a reference don’t list them in the reference area.

    2. KTemGee*

      I think if you are job searching from that job, it is very normal to NOT list your current employer as a reference, and most places you are applying to will understand that. But if you are not (which it sounds like you are not), it does look a little odd to not have a reference from your most recent employer. Is there anyone there you could use, even a colleague? Not ideal, but something. If you don’t want to do that, you can explain it away by that work not being as a relevant as your freelance work.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yes, it could potentially look strange. It depends on how long ago it was, also. If it was your last job, then no, I wouldn’t recommend leaving it off.

      You don’t have to list them as a reference, but most employers are going to want references from recent jobs. So again, if it’s recent, you might need to figure something out. Is there a specific person there that you can trust to be a reference? And some employers will only want to call for employment verification, so you remember that you can include this company on your resume but leave them off your reference list.

  92. Nutmeg*

    How much and how often is it normal for people in office-type cubicle jobs to be touched by their coworkers, supervisors, etc.? Related, how much personal space may one reasonably expect in the Midwestern part of the US?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I’m not a toucher and am in the standoffish Northeast, but in most jobs I’ve had, I haven’t touched anyone at all until my last day. (Or the other person’s last day.)

    2. Brownie*

      I’ve got two coworkers who touch deliberately. One touches when going past in the cube hallway (it’s small), usually on the shoulder or upper arm as an “I’m physically here” thing. I don’t mind that one as it’s helpful to keep me from backing into or hitting them accidentally. The other one is a talk toucher who touches my forearm to shoulders area when having conversations, using the touches as emphasis. That one has taken me several years to stop flinching/reacting to. It’s important to figure out what the touching context is in order to determine if it’s normal-okay (first coworker for me), normal-not-okay (second coworker for me), or not-normal.

      You’re right to pick up on the fact that there’s also geographic culture norms to apply as well as office norms, all of which means you’ll have to base “normal” off of what seems to be accepted without comment or negative body language within your specific office. If there’s someone you trust in the office who’s been around for a while it might be worth asking them if the level of touching and personal space seems out of the ordinary for them. If there isn’t someone to ask then it might have to be based on what you observe within the office culture and what the body language of the touching recipients says.

      1. Parenthetically*

        I am a hugger, but touch-talking makes me bananas. One of the board members at my former school was both a touch-talker and a close-talker and I felt so uncomfortable talking to him.

      2. Jennifer Juniper*

        I’d reach touch-talking as creepy at best, outright sexual harassment at worst, especially if it’s from the opposite gender.

      3. Middle Manager*

        I think this varies office to office based on the culture and the people there. I’m really not a toucher and recently had to shut down a male co-worker who was daily touching me on my shoulder. But some people are okay with a casual pat on the back or hug, etc. But if you’re not comfortable with it, it’s totally okay to say “I’m not a hugger/toucher/etc”.

    3. Wintermute*

      I’ve had a manager touch my shoulder twice, ever. it was a little odd both times, same manager too. This was over the course of three years so it’s not like it was a common thing even for the one guy that did shoulder pats.

    4. Wintermute*

      Doh! I left off the most important thing. I’ve worked in Wisconsin, Illinois and Michigan, so a sampling of the midwest, where it was that uncommon.

    5. Alex*

      I don’t think I have ever been touched at work, apart from the occasional high five from people I’m particularly close to.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m a Chicagoan lady type person, and….I’m almost never touched at work (and that’s how I like it). I had a male coworker do that hand-on-the-back-as-I-allow-you-to-go-ahead-of-me-thing earlier this week, and I think that’s one of the only times in the YEARS I’ve worked here that a coworker has touched me. Personal space-wise, I would say “reasonable amount” but that’s not really quantitative. I have a pretty strong desire to not be touched or have my space invaded, and I rarely feel like a coworker is trampling on my boundaries.

      If you have coworkers who don’t seem to respect your boundaries around personal space, for sure check out some of Alison’s letters about that. I’m a firm believer that physical contact is not required in office jobs and should be out of the norm.

    7. Onyx*

      My current office on the west coast is big into fist bumps as people leave for the day. Not sure if that’s unique to this office or a west coast thing.

      When I worked in the Midwest, no touching aside from a hug when someone left the company or a handshake when meeting clients. I did have one coworker who would sometimes put his hands on my shoulders when coming over to look at something on my computer.

    8. Beth*

      My own experience is that the US overall tends to have generous personal space, and less personal space correlates more to ethnic background — all of which is subject to individual variation, as well as variation based on cultural adaptation, level of formality, etc.

      That said, although I’m pretty touchy-feely myself, I work in a small office with close friendly relations, and I’ve touched or been touched (consensually) by co-workers when serious personal discussions were being shared (births, deaths, marriages, etc.), it’s not something I ever experience as part of ordinary work interactions. And I would give the hairy eyeball to anyone who includes physical contact as an ordinary part of work communications with the opposite gender.

  93. Liz*

    How much of their jobs does everyone like/love? I’m realizing in terms of time spent on activities, I dislike/hate about 1/3 of my job, I’m neutral to 1/3 of it and I like/love 1/3. I keep vacillating between thinking you get paid for work because no one wants to do it, but spending 2/3 of my time on things I don’t enjoy is kind of rough.

    1. LQ*

      I feel like 1/3 dislike/hate isn’t bad. I’m not sure any of the work I’ve done would come up to 2/3’s strong positive-neutral. I think it’s usually more like half stuff that I don’t like. Though I’d include a lot of the paperworky stuff in that and I don’t usually feel strongly negative about it. I’ve also managed to work my way out of a lot of the negative stuff by automating it/coming up with a better way to tackle it, etc…

    2. ursula*

      Yeah, I wish I could be more optimistic, but I think this sounds not bad. I’m probably in a similar space. Also I’d say it depends what kind of dislike/hate and what kind of like/love – like for me a job that was 10% made up of work I found ethically compromising would be pretty untenable, whereas a job that was 20% spent working with forms I found annoying would be not that big a deal if I really liked the 30% that was good.

      I do sympathize with feeling anxious/weird about the ratio, though. When I first transitioned from school to work, I struggled with it so much. Some days I just think, I am going to die some day and I am spending so much time at work doing stuff that doesn’t matter. But other days I remind myself that I’m happy with my compensation and relatively ok with the lifestyle this job affords me, so whatever. (No reason not to try to find a better ratio, though!)

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yeah, I agree, it depends on what the “dislike/hate” stuff IS. I LOATHED quarterly parent meetings as a teacher. I STRONGLY disliked grading and doing grade reports. Those two things were probably 1/4 of my job. But that stuff is, like, standard annoying teacher stuff that no one loves. You’re not going to get out of it, it’s not killing your soul, it’s annoying and time-consuming and faffy, but you just put your head down and do it so you can get on to the things you do enjoy. If a job was 1/3 something that completely depleted me, made me feel icky or compromised, or just felt intolerable for some reason, though, I’d be on the lookout for something else.

        I think a huge contributor to unhappiness in work and life is this idea that we’re supposed to sort of feel good all the time. It’s good to take practical steps toward more happiness or peace or fulfillment or whatever, but it seems like so many people have this nagging sense that they should just be happy or peaceful or fulfilled constantly, and if they aren’t, there’s something wrong — and that’s just not realistic or even, IMO, very desirable!

    3. Lepidoptera*

      I like the work itself. My problem is always with people, most of whom complicate the work needlessly. I spend an insane amount of time nagging people to make easy decisions, chasing people down for their part of a baton project, and smoothing feathers ruffled over the most microscopic of slights.

    4. Middle Manager*

      I would agree with the above commenters. I think it’s pretty typically. Maybe the “hate” is a little high?

    5. Amethystmoon*

      It’s ok. It pays the rent and we can listen to headphones. I don’t have any super annoying co-workers at the moment, which helps.

    6. Meredith*

      They’ve done surveys on this kind of thing. Less than 1/5th of Americans actually love their job.

  94. Entry Level Marcus*

    I’m in my first full-time job out of college (albeit a 7 month temp position), though I also have some internships under my belt.

    Is it normal to have very little face-to-face contact with management, and almost no one-on-one time? For context this is a white collar writing job. I have had only one brief one-on-one meeting with a higher-up my entire time in this position (5 months). I did see managers a lot in during the initial group training, as they ran many of the sessions, but those are long over now. My coworkers and I do attend meetings ran by the managers once every week or two and I do communicate with management over email when I have questions about the work. The work is by nature pretty independent, so I don’t feel I necessarily feel like I need to be meeting with management to do my job well, but at the same time it feels weird to feel like I’m barely acquainted with my boss after being here five months.

    1. Paris Geller*

      I am not in this field, but I have several friends that are, so take this with a grain of salt, but that sounds still within the realm of normal to me. Maybe a little less interaction than most people have with higher-ups in the same field, but I know my friends who have similar jobs say they can go weeks without talking to management (other than their direct bosses).

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Pretty normal. You have quite an independent job and when you have questions and things they go through e-mail.

      Now that doesn’t mean that you can’t request 1:1’s or something like that. It’s crappy when management, in this case referring to your direct supervisor, doesn’t take the initiative to setup 1:1’s with their reports, but it’s not crazy for this type of job. If you DO request regular face time, you need to make sure you know what you want it for and that those meetings are productive. Having face time is great and all, but if you just sit in a room and go “yeah… so I’m working on this stuff.” then it’s not productive and you’re probably not going to get another one of those meetings for awhile. So think about what you’d like. Feedback? Career planning? Talk about development opportunities? Once you nail that down, then ask your direct supervisor for a meeting.

    3. TypityTypeType*

      I don’t know what industry you’re in, but since it’s a writing job, I’ll weigh in: This is not unusual. Writers can be pretty easy to overlook once they’re known to be producing consistently good work. When your work goal is “Get all the things done, and don’t blow deadlines,” there may not, at least in the short term, be much for a manager to add.

      It’s kind of a hazard of writing (and editing): It can feel like the only time you hear from your manager, it’s because something has gone wrong. So if you’re good at your job, you may end up hearing very little. Others’ experience may vary, of course, but based on 30-ish years in publishing, this is pretty normal.

    4. Didi*

      Yeah, this is normal for writing and for many other jobs where people work independently. You don’t say how many people report to your boss, or whether they are all on-site or remote, but if your boss has many direct reports, the managers may feel they cover management stuff in a weekly or biweekly staff meeting, plus ad hoc emails, and don’t do individual 1-on-1s.

  95. GS*

    I’m going into my second year managing contractors. I am a department of 1 who manages a ton of external contractors. I was given some very ambitious targets to hit this year from three or four levels above me, more than double our usual targets. I just recently negotiated and signed a contractor company on to meet these ambitous targets. The contract required that the contractor more than double their staff to meet the workload and extra QA requirements. Now it looks like my company (from the same many levels above) may reduce their targets so I have only 40% of the expected work (and thus pay) to give my contractors.

    The contractors just finished hiring for our project. I feel like my reputation with all similar contracting companies will be permanently damaged after this, though the targets aren’t in my control. Is this a normal part of the contractor risk/reward game or should I really be concerned? Should I feel as upset as I am at upper management?

    1. Galahad*

      IME, it is your company that gets the bad reputation, not you. I have very good thoughts (and would give a reference for) the professionalism of people I have negotiated with/against, and I have still blacklisted their company from future business because of promising one thing and delivering another. It is a bit like companies that do not pay their bills for 120 or 180 days even knowing the small business contractor is in a tight spot.

      If you negotiate in a “clean and honest” even skilled, manner on behalf of your company, people can tell. They can also tell when you are being swarmy and deliberately devious.

      1. GS*

        So: it probably will make my next year much harder in finding folks to do the work, but if I were to go to a different company that wouldn’t follow me. Thank you, that’s reassuring.

  96. Investigatorygurl*

    Is it normal for a boss to copy and paste your work for a profile you were working on and present it as their own? I understand that my name can not be on everything but the profile goes to higher ups or people who need them and it only has my boss’ name on it.

    I can’t tell if I’m being ridiculous with my expectations…

    1. Bubbleon*

      This is really tough to say without more information about your role vs your boss’s role and your industry. Is there anyone you trust with a little more experience who might be able to give you an insider’s understanding of what the norms might be in that situation? Sorry that’s not super helpful

      1. Investigatorygurl*

        It’s a new department (only us two) and my boss and I work on compiling snail industry profiles for snail salespeople. My boss (in my opinion and as they have admitted) isn’t that great in compiling the information and it usually ends up that I compile all or most of the info on snails and then they copy it onto a document with only their name and snailsrus company logo on it and sends it off.

        1. Bubbleon*

          Ah, in that case it sounds like they get the byline by default as S Nail, Head of Snail Profiles, not just S Nail Random Middle Manager. They might not be directly responsible for writing the profile, but they’re responsible for the creation and dissemination and are the face of the company’s Snail Profile Department. They’re also the one people will complain to if anything in the profile is wrong or if they are tired of getting these emails, so there might be a little bit of a benefit to your name not being there.

        2. Stained Glass Cannon*

          I’m assuming, based on your description, that the document is meant for the salespeople to use in their work, not broadcast publicly like a news or opinion piece. If this is the case, it’s entirely normal to put your boss’s name on it. Usually, when someone’s name is appended to a reference document, it’s either because (a) that person is someone high profile or senior whose name gives credibility to the document or (b) the company is trying to use the document to elevate that person’s profile. If the company doesn’t have anyone high profile enough that their name can be used to sell the document, or if they don’t want to elevate anyone, the document may even go out without any name on it at all. I’m guessing that in your case, your boss’s name and title is what will sell the document.

      2. Investigatorygurl*

        That is a good idea though, I should find someone in the industry who can speak on this.

    2. Middle Manager*

      I think it’s somewhat normal, but crappy. It happened a lot to me in my entry level role at my current company. It did really suck though. I’ve tried to learn from that and try really hard to credit my staff if I’m presenting their work. It’s worth asking your boss if you have a good relation if they’d be willing to credit you.

    3. Brownie*

      That falls into the category of normal to me. Ideally there would be an acknowledgement of who created the original work. However it’s fairly standard that the higher up the person is the more likely their name will be on it versus the folk(s) who actually did the work. An example would be a VP presenting to shareholders; the VP’s name is on the presentation even if the entirety was actually produced by their admin or other employees lower down in the hierarchy.

    4. Norm*

      Normal. When I read materials signed by the boss, I assume she had some staffers write and edit the piece. I’m actually surprised when somebody high up writes her own stuff.

  97. Ms. Meow*

    Is it normal for companies to announce sudden procedural changes, then walk them back and plan a slower roll-out?

    At the beginning of February my company made a big change to the effect of “Effective immediately, as soon as you walk into the llama grooming barn you must put on your grooming gloves. If you are in the barn without gloves, it will be a punishable issue.” The problem with that is most barns have the grooming gloves stored on the opposite side of the barn from where the door is. So if you enter the barn and walk across the grooming floor to retrieve your gloves, you’re in violation of the policy and can get in trouble. I was told that everyone in my group was stunned and didn’t really respond, but I was on vacation that day. When I came back I began asking questions to clarify the policy. My manager thanked me for my questions, brought it up with higher ups, and now it has been decided that the policy will go into effect April 1 so that we all had time to prepare the barns.

    This is just one example. My company does stuff like this all the time. The bigwigs tend to say “OMG we need to make this change right away” and not think about the consequences for the people actually having to do the work. So, yeah, normal?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Someone thought it was a great idea, implemented it, and never actually thought through the practicalities. Like where the gloves are stored. When it’s pointed out, they either dig in and it becomes even more ridiculous, or they back down and sometimes it’s never implemented at all.

      It can happen literally anywhere, and is really a symptom of not planning/thinking things through. If you’re seeing it in one thing, there’s a good chance it’s all over.

    2. Catsaber*

      Pretty normal for it to happen *sometimes* but not all the time…if it’s all the time, then there’s probably larger issues going on. People should be learning from those experiences that didn’t turn out well…and sometimes things just get borked, priorities change, etc. But if it’s happening constantly and no one seems like they’re doing anything to learn from it or prevent it, then I’d be wary of that company.

    3. anna green*

      This is kind of normal, but its not really good. Usually companies that do this will also screw up lots of other stuff too. I’ve been at several. Not necessarily a deal breaker on its own, but just keep your eyes open.

    4. Wintermute*

      This is normal to happen once or twice, when the good idea fairy strikes and they roll out a policy, only to face massive pushback, maybe even people threatening to leave or leaving, huge production interruptions or irate customers and decide to make a hasty course-correction. The fact this is REGULAR is very much not normal and speaks to a broken ADIFR (Analysis, decision, implementation, feedback, revision) loop or a lack of one entirely.

      It could also be a symptom of seagull bosses (show up, make a bunch of noise, crap all over everything and then fly off) if there’s high management turnover.

      Can also be a sign of upper management that doesn’t get enough of a “view of the floor” so to speak, so when they do show up they see BIG THINGS THAT NEED ADDRESSING NOW, potentially legitimate safety or workflow problems, order a quick fix and then leave, while letting the next big issue fester until they suddenly notice it and panic that they have a serious problem on their hands.

      I’d be tempted to sneak into managers’ offices in the dead of night and start leaving books about kanban and Continual Improvement on their desks.

    5. Juniantara*

      It’s common for it to happen sometimes, and a good sign that management is listening if it happens once in a great while, but it’s a bad sign if it’s happening all the time. This is a case where frequency determines how normal it is.

    6. ENFP in Texas*

      OMG, yes. And the larger the organization, the more often it seems to happen, because the people making the changes aren’t the ones who are doing the day-to-day work…

    7. WatchOutForThatTree*

      You mean like, “We’re pulling all our troops out of Syria immediately.”

    8. Anon for this*

      Normal at my org for some things. We have a continual improvement process that gets used for a lot of things. However, our field is one where our mistakes (or perceived mistakes) are very public, and when something gets a Big Damn Reaction, the higher ups have a Big Damn Overreaction, which ends up being impractical and has to be revised later.

  98. Ada*

    Is it normal for companies to not adjust pay after a merger, even if it means there will be huge pay disparities?

    Background: My first job out of college was at a very small locally-owned company with limited resources. I accepted a lower paycheck for a few reasons (lack of experience, job hunting near the start of the recession, joining a small company, etc.). Fast forward a few years, and we’re bought out by a much larger international company with far more resources, but they refused to adjust my pay, despite the fact that the pay their other employees with my title and doing the exact same type of work about double what they pay me. Over the last few years I fought for raises as much as possible, and now I’m “only” underpaid by about $10K to $20K, but really, is this normal?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I don’t know how common it is, but it does happen and is not a good idea if you want to integrate the acquired company/retain employees. I do know what’s going to happen – high turnover.

      Make sure you’re getting paid appropriately. There, or elsewhere.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Yes, this is very normal.

      It stinks.

      The buying company just laid out a ton of money and doesn’t want to increase expenses by reexamining payroll at the moment, generally. Not always true, but I’ve seen this in general.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      Yes, it is common. I refer you to the Northwest Orient/Republic merger and the Delta/Northwest merger as well. The difference in pay structure was very much contentious in both mergers.

    4. didi*

      Sorry to say, but this is normal. If a company has grown a lot through M&A, the pay of individuals doing about the same job can vary very widely. It stinks, it’s unfair, but it’s very common.

      Conversely, if someone was very overpaid at a company that’s acquired by a lower-paying company, that person may not get raises, or only very small raises, for years because he/she is overpaid.

  99. Newish Managerish*

    Is it normal that when you have a bad employee, you cannot fire them? We have a few bad employees we want to get rid of so badly, and have every reason to, documented etc. But higher ups do not want to (I am middle mgmt). One threatened to sue so now the company is ont willing to let them go.

    1. De Minimis*

      Not normal. No, not even in government. It can be harder to fire someone there, but not impossible.

    2. Asenath*

      I’ve seen it before – I think a more common reason is that no one wants to document the poor behaviour; they’d rather simply say they can’t fire the person. This happens sometimes in union jobs, since those tend to require that poor performance or wrongdoing be documented first. But I knew a case many years ago in which it was alleged that the person in question threatened to sue, and the higher ups just didn’t want to deal with that, so they kept him on.

      However, it is, of course, possible to fire someone, unionized or not and threatening lawsuits or not. All you need to do is follow whatever the law and the union contract says you have to do. And in some jobs and workplaces, it is common to get rid of people without firing them. That’s done by conversations (usually lengthy ones) with the employee starting with the problems they are having and ending with the employee, under more or less pressure, finding some other job. This has the advantage of the employee having somewhere to go and no firing on record (since they technically resigned), but is probably not a common approach.

      1. Newish Managerish*

        Thank you for this. We’ve documented as much as possible. Many emails, many conversations. One of the employees keeps saying that they worked in a prestigious company and have higher education than most of us. I know this is not normal, and I sometimes want to say “Then use it?”. (I know that is not normal and I will never say it, at least not in that way).

    3. Jamie*

      It’s very normal for tptb to not understand labor laws. I knew owners of multimillion dollar companies who were convinced they couldn’t fire someone in a protected class even for cause until it rose to the level of violence in the workplace, etc.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      For larger companies, this is very normal. I’ve seen where generally they’re terrified that the fired employee will sue, to the point where it becomes ridiculous. The stories I’m sure many of us can tell…

      But I’m guessing if you’re at a larger company than this is just very normal. The typical way I’ve seen to force people out is to start the transfer jumble and destroy their morale to the point where they jump ship on their own, and attrition them out of the company. It’s not good practice, but it’s normally what I see.

      1. Newish Managerish*

        We’re a mid to large company (100+ employees). Sadly we can’t even transfer them out b/c no other team will take them, nor do we want to transfer them b/c I feel it would be unfair to the other teams to have them deal with these people.

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          In those situations, I’ve seen other tactics used like:
          – Taking away that person’s job duties but still forcing them to warm the chair or threatening discipline. Also strict computer use monitoring.
          – Refusal of raises year over year due to non-performance
          – Regularly passing over said person regardless of the opportunity

          The list could go on. Again, it’s poor management. Another much kinder option is to lay it out to the person: You aren’t working out all that well here, and we want to help you find a role where you’re better suited. How can we help you find another position at another location where you can do better and be happier, and that better fits your skill set?

          I’d talk to your HR and make sure you’re completely aligned with their processes. Then go to the higher ups and ask why the processes exist if we intend to never use them, and lay out the financial impacts of retaining a non-performing staff member. Dollars make people take notice: If this person in the position is not taking in enough money than their salary, that’s a problem. There are also studies that point to 1 person being a drag on the department’s productivity. I’m not sure I remember what Harvard Business Case that is, but there is an estimate out there that you can point to and say, “Look, we’re paying this person $x, and with benefits that cost comes to $y. Their contributions are $z, so right now we’re in the hole about $z-$y per year. But that’s ignoring the effects their poor performance has on the rest of the team. Right now Harvard Business school estimates that it brings down overall productivity by anywhere from D-E%, so really, this person is costing us $z-$y, AND 1/(1-D) to 1/(1-E) * Department Revenues per year. And we’re saying we don’t want to fire this person, when we know that they’re costing us, at least, this much per year, year over year? What contribution to our bottom line are they making that I’m not capturing here?”

          Gathering all that data might be hard, depending on what your department does, but you have some business measure out there you can start manipulating, as long as you establish you have the HR process.

          Gotta warn you though, one company I worked out explicitly said that the reason one individual was not ever eligible for hire was because they were minority, and as it was a company interested in government contracts, it wanted to maintain a certain % of minority direct hires to allow them to jump to the head of the line of some contract awards. I have absolutely no idea whether that was true or not, and I know that this sort of practice is wildly unethical, and perhaps illegal. But they refused to fire someone based on those reasons. I’m hoping your legwork would uncover if something like that’s going on, or if you have to poke and prod your upper management into actually managing.

    5. Middle Manager*

      I’d say it’s more common than it should be. It happens and it’s not a good thing. (also I’m in your boat, so many commiserations).

      1. Galahad*

        One area where it is very hard to fire people is if they are currently pregnant or on some type of disability leave or medical condition that reasonably and temporarily could be causing a huge drop in work quality. At this point you need clear violations, like not coming into work as expected and not using the absence line per policy, or theft, or abuse of others. Otherwise, the key is that it is “likely a tempoarary condition” and you modify work and expectations temporariliy, for now and suck it up. The only alternative is a leave of absence for the duration (paid or unpaid depending on legal advice).

        At a reasonable end of the temporary condition, you then create a documented program of graduated work to ramp them back up at the end of it, as needed.

  100. Zaphod*

    I’m an exempt employee. I routinely work over 40 hours per week, and I record my actual working in my time sheet, even though that information has no impact on my pay, paid time off or anything else. My employer requires weekly submission of time sheets from everyone, and asks employees to record actual time worked. For certain categories of employees, the time sheet information is used to calculate program costs and certain reimbursable efforts. My time, however, is not used for that. Other exempt employees in my category will enter 40 hours per week, regardless of actual time worked, since the info isn’t actually used for anything.

    All of my boss’s job responsibilities were recently transferred to me (to enable my boss to do new things), but nothing was taken off my plate. So I am over-loaded. At that time, my department head asked me to start putting 40 hours per week in my time sheet, regardless of how much I work, so that my boss wouldn’t be upset or feel guilty about my long hours.

    Is this normal? It certainly strikes me as unethical. By the way, my response to this request: “No, I won’t be doing that.”

    1. Catsaber*

      Sort of common: recording time for an exempt employee

      Not common: telling the employee to only put 40 hours in order to preserve someone’s feelings

      Many exempt employees record time for various reasons, such as billing, project resource planning, etc. But to lie about your hours in order not to hurt anyone’s feelings is a big fat NOPE.

    2. Jamie*

      If they are tracking tine for exempt employees they should be using that data to determine staffing needs. If you have an area consistently requiring excessive OT those numbers could be used to justify why you need more personnel. Or one person consistently having work tons of OT and the others not it’s a good metric to tell you to look at balancing the work load.

      Your job is not to manage your bosses emotions and it’s ridiculous for them to ask you to do this. I wouldn’t lie if it were me.

    3. Bubbleon*

      My company is similar in the not using hours for actual information, if you’re exempt you could write that you’d worked 0 hours or 100 and it wouldn’t make any amount of difference. Our HR has told exempt employees to write whatever they want, no one uses the numbers but we have to have the same process for exempt and non-exempt, whose hours are only tracked for payment.

      I might run it by HR if you haven’t been explicitly told that less than accurate reporting is acceptable, just to make sure your bases are covered. From there, you have a few options:
      1. Tell department head that as you understand from HR you need to record accurate timing
      2. Tell department head that you need to keep tracking hours for your own records and would be happy to speak to boss about it if they had any questions (and tbh a decent boss SHOULD feel guilty and have questions if you inherit all their responsibility and start working 20 more hours a week)
      3. Keep tracking 40 hours and keep a separate excel file to track for your own reference.

      I think the bigger issue would be how long they’re expecting you to do the boss duties without increasing your pay, my concern about continuing to track only 40 hours would be that they might use it later to say “but your hours didn’t change when you got these new duties so you don’t need a raise”.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      It’s normal, and bad practice, for many exempt positions to ‘force’ them to record 40 hours of work. I worked for a company that required regularly over 40 hours of work, but we only billed the company for 40 hours/week. What we charged the billed company was based on our time sheets.

      I think time sheets for exempt employees can serve a valuable purpose in understanding how many people should be doing the role, and gives them actual data to pull to understand their workload/staffing mix. I’d suggest, if you’re in any position to, that you encourage your coworkers to be honest so that the company has the most information it can have to make better staffing/workloading decisions. I’d bet many people would be amenable to that, even if the data isn’t always used. At least it’ll be available.

      As for that reason of making someone feel bad… no, that’s not a good reason and not normal. I’ve seen the reason be we don’t want to charge as much to the other company and the contract only allows so much money (not time), but not that someone will feel guilty. That’s silly.

      1. Antilles*

        I’ve seen the reason be we don’t want to charge as much to the other company and the contract only allows so much money (not time)
        That’s very common, but it’s also really dumb. You can only bill $10,000, which is 100 hours at $100/hour. Okay, that’s the contract limit and you have to abide by it. If it took you 120 hours, you’re still only sending the client an invoice for 100 hours and you’re forced to write off the extra 20 hours.
        BUT in your internal accounting system, you really do want the full 120 hours listed on the project so that it’s clear that the project went overbudget and how far – that’s how you actually identify that there was a problem in the first place, figure out what the issue was, and then fix it in the future.
        Maybe the issue is that the initial budgeting was wrong in the first place and you need to improve your proposal/planning process. Maybe the issue is that your project calculations had a lot of errors, so you need to figure out a process to reduce the amount of mistakes and wasted time. Maybe the issue is that the client changed the scope midway through, in which case, you definitely need to know the exact budget because you’ve got a case for at least attempting to ask for a budget increase.
        Intentionally not billing hours makes the budget look good on paper (no writeoffs! yay!), but prevents you from actually recognizing the problem, evaluating it, and addressing the root cause.

        2. Brownie*

          And then there’s being an exempt employee where timecards must be only 40 hours and any time actually worked over that is looked down on as a negative thing as it is exceeding the work-life balance promoted by the department/office. If I have 50 hours of work to do in a week I either have to leave things undone and get customer complaints or work at a burnout level pace to get all 50 hours done in the 40 I’m allowed to work. Leaving things undone means customers don’t get what they need, finishing the things means I either burn out from the pace or get a black mark for working beyond the 40 hours. It’s a no-win situation that’s sadly very normal (and very complained about by coworkers) at my job. Oh, and it’s touted as a “we care about our employees’ work/life balance so exempt = 40 hours only” item for attracting new employees too.

          What exacerbates the whole situation is exactly what you described, there’s no way to know if we’re overworked or underworked without serious legwork and research as well as it causing a lack of accurate planning and budgeting for future projects. So if I go burnout pace to get something done in 40 hours that should have been 50, the next time a similar project is budgeted I’ll get only 40 hours, max, because that’s the recorded time it took me on my timesheet.

  101. LQ*

    Nontechnical IT managers:
    How common is it to have managers, directors, senior leadership in an IT department who are not at all technical (not by training or inclination)? Not someone who went to school for something else but is very engaged in technical items, but people who are not at all engaged in either the technology currently in use or the technology that may be in use in the future.

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      Significantly more common than you would think. I see it all the time.

      One thing to keep in mind is that managing and leading are specific skills. It is absolutely possible to effectively manage and lead a team whose job duties are not ones you personally have performed in the past or even understand. The job of a manager, and especially of senior leadership, is not to have the knowledge for those functions. That’s not their job. Now to be effective though, they have to trust their people and listen to them. Frequently what I see when someone without that technical knowledge or experience is in a leadership position and doing a terrible job it’s because they don’t know anything about the day-to-day duties and they don’t trust in the people who do have that knowledge. That’s the recipe for disaster.

    2. Anom-a-lom-a-ding-dong*

      I work in IT: the higher up you go in the management chain, the further removed they can be from the technology, in my experience! It depends on the organization, of course, but at those higher levels, they’re often looking at things from a strategic/big-picture view rather than the nitty-gritty technical details- they’ll consult people closer to the tech as needed when questions are beyond their technical expertise.

    3. Wintermute*

      Fintech IT, used to work telecom. Very common. Above the level of engineer the higher on the org chart the less technical skills they have, with rare exceptions (the telco I worked for had a CTO that had a PhD in radio-frequency electronic engineering, and an impressive list of certifications and publications, his direct underlings did not share this by and large).

      And that’s perfectly normal, because most of the time IT managers are glorified HR reps, they’re there to handle scheduling, time off and sick time requests, hiring and firing, and monitor the results of quality audits performed by the engineers or shift leads. A direct manager like a NOC manager or SOC manager will probably have technical expertise to be the place the buck stops when there is a technical problem, but their own boss, the NOClings grandboss, probably won’t.

    4. CyberNed*

      This is annoyingly common, and the other side of this is also annoyingly true (IT leadership knows their stuff but doesn’t have a seat at the leadership table). Best course of action is to learn and become the technically proficient leader you want to see.

  102. kay*

    I’ve worked for a large state university for nearly 10 years. I switched units recently, and there is a strange divide between “Professional” and “Clerical (civil service)” staff that did not exist in my previous units. The new job is fine and the people are pleasant, but it is weird that there are a handful of individuals in my office (including myself) who are not included in staff meetings, communications retreats, or staff development. The eligibility for performance raises is also limited, but I knew that was usually part of a civil service position. Not being included in staff meetings is really annoying; before each meeting I’m asked if I have contributions to be relayed to the group (I always do), and rely on someone who attended or my boss to fill me in on any important information discussed (there always is). I often then have to get clarity from whoever discussed an item pertaining to my work, which I wouldn’t have to do if I could just have attended the meeting in the first place. It clearly has to do with someone being civil service or not. I did not hesitate to take this job, though I had not held a civil service classification before, because the duties and expectations as described were not different than my previous positions in program-level coordination/program assistant. At my previous roles there were some civil service classified staff, though not many as it was being phased out. They were included and treated just like other staff, however.

    I want to note that I’m not treated poorly, and that I like my job, my coworkers, and I feel valued. It’s just this one thing that seems strange and perhaps an outdated relic. It is just so weird to have three people not treated as full staff in some specific areas. Is this normal?!

    1. Thinmint*

      I have worked at a large state university for 14 years, in 2 offices, and I have not seen this.

    2. Liz*

      From someone who’s also at a large state university (for 10+ years), that’s a little odd but not necessarily abnormal. My first thought is that Clerical might also mean non-exempt, and that’s why you’re not included.

      I’d recommend asking your manager if you can attend and cite your reasons, maybe framing it as for efficiency/clarity reasons.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve seen something similar when I worked at a large state university. Not the professional vs clerical, but departmental vs. college (for example, I worked for the fundraising department but was housed in a college, and some of my colleagues worked for the college but were housed within the fundraising office). It sometimes meant the college-paid staff didn’t attend all the meetings that the fundraising-paid staff did. I think it was mostly a function of the massive bureaucracy that is a state university and the constant bickering over who had to pay for what.

  103. Marvin Boofaloo*

    I work for the state. We used to have our winter (holiday) party during business hours and the office would close for those 2 hours. It was at the end of the day so people could go home from there. Now it is shifting to starting an hour or a half hour until close and going an additional hour longer. Many are choosing to not attend and work through the party and leave at 5, rather than go to the party for a shortened time and leave at 5 still, or go to the party and leave when the party ends. Our director is upset with this and is suggesting that next year we may not have a holiday party. I don’t know if the way she wants these parties is normal and if her reaction is normal.

    1. animaniactoo*

      It is a thing that’s done in other places (my company made this switch). Her reaction is not normal.

      Other places have the party completely after hours.

      Personally, I would prefer during work hours, but it’s once a year and [shrug]. There have been years I’ve chosen not to attend because it created scheduling issues for me.

      If most of your co-workers would rather skip the party than stay an hour later, it either says something about the quality of party that you guys have, or about their schedules. The latter should in no way be taken as a slight by your director and somebody may have success pointing out that if so many people can’t make a party at that time, it’s rather punitive to not have a party that is supposed to benefit employee morale, etc. simply because a scheduling change didn’t work for the employees who are supposed to be benefitting from it. Giving people something is nice. Giving them something they can’t use is self-defeating and pointless, and getting upset about it to boot is shortsighted in the extreme.

    2. CJM*

      I think a normal and *thoughtful* director would make sure the party starts and ends during business hours out of respect for people’s personal lives after 5pm. My company (not the state, so maybe the cultures are way different) did it both ways during the nearly 28 years I worked there, starting with an annual big-deal event on a Saturday evening, which was definitely not during business hours. That was in the late 80s and the 90s, and I think after-hours social events at companies were pretty normal then. These days it seems more normal, based on the changes I experienced and what I’ve heard from friends, for a work group’s holiday party to be held during normal work hours so that employees don’t feel pressured to stay beyond their usual end time. That makes the party a true treat for the employees too: during work!

    3. CatCat*

      I don’t think the party time is necessarily abnormal, but it’s weird that she’s “upset” that people don’t want to or are unable to go after hours.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Also in state government. Sometimes it depends on the administration in office and how hard line they are about using time for parties. We’ve shifted back and forth in my time here depending on who the Governor or Secretary of our department is.

    5. Anna Canuck*

      I work for a municipality; our old way to have the winter party was in the evening with spouses invited. The management felt participation was too low, so we moved to a during work hours, employees only event. It’s technically optional (you can work instead, if you want) and some people are operationally required to work through it. No one gets bent too far out of shape if you skip it. She’s not normal.

    6. Juniantara*

      Honestly, there is no “normal” regarding holiday parties – every company winds up at a different place, and polices often change regarding how/when/where to conduct them.
      It is completely normal for everyone to get overly emotionally invested and angry about the holiday party and any changes to the “way it’s done” and for management to lose patience with the drama and get unreasonable themselves.

    7. noahwynn*

      I’ve never worked for a company that had the holiday party during normal business hours. They’ve always been after-hours, generally a Friday or Saturday evening. This is private sector though, not government. In general we were strongly encourage (pretty much required) to attend and encouraged to bring a spouse or partner.

    8. Rose*

      Municipal: used to have an after hours party, no one came, now it’s during the work day (a lunch). Not normal to get upset, people will leave when the work day is done. A little odd that people are working through the party rather than going though (the part that’s during work hours).

    9. Meredith*

      It seems slightly unreasonable for your coworkers to not be able to stay an hour later once a year for a FREE PARTY, but I get that it’s also typical of government positions to have very strict hours and no overtime required ever. But as someone who has worked in the private sector forever, I would 100% rather not work for 90 minutes and either leave or stay a bit late than just work my normal day and not go at all.

  104. Not Gary, Gareth*

    Anyone in the staffing industry who could lend some insight? This is less of a “Is this a normal thing for an employer to do?” and more of a, “Is this normal/acceptable for me to do as an employee?”

    I currently work as the in-house receptionist for a very small temp agency. (Like, 5 employees small.) The environment and coworkers are great, which I desperately needed after a fairly traumatic exit from my previous toxic job. But the pay is low, benefits are nearly non-existent, and the work is not at all challenging. It was pretty clear all around that this would not be my “forever home,” as it were. They asked for a minimum of 6 months, which I’ve met. I’m going to need to move on soon so whatever skills I had before now don’t atrophy.

    Would it be weird for me to ask my coworkers to consider my for temp positions that come in? I originally registered as a temp here and they just happened to want me for themselves, so on the plus side they know my skills and work habits well and could give me a glowing recommendation. On the other hand, is it unfair of me to ask them to both find me a new job and replace me?

    Staffing specialists/recruiters: what’s your take? Should I strike out on my own, or ask my coworkers for help?

    1. Wintermute*

      I am not in the industry but I work extensively with them as a contractor in a somewhat specialized field. It strikes me as a potential conflict of interest, and there are also potential employee status/tax/benefits implications if they are the W2 employer of their contractors (as opposed to strictly handling brokering for I9 contractors). It’s also announcing your intentions to leave way, way before the point you normally would in a job search, which could lead them to wonder how much dedication you’re putting in day-to-day in your current role.

      I would personally say “don’t cross the streams”, with the only exception being if you’re truly set on contract work and there aren’t many other agencies around in your area. I’m in a major metro area, there are more than I can count in every possible specialty from medical to IT to office work to short-term labor and beyond, so I’m spoilt for choice there.

      1. Not Gary, Gareth*

        Hmm, fair point. To be clear: it’s a temp agency, not a contract broker. So yes, they’re the W2 employer for all their temps as well as myself. It’s been clear from the start that I was not expected to stay for much more than six months; so announcing my intent to leave isn’t really a concern (I’m not going to get pushed out), nor would it be much of a surprise to anyone. My understanding (though limited) is that contracting and temping, at least here in the US, are two different beasts.

        They do have several temps on the roster that previously worked in my role – what’s unclear to me is whether those previous employees went straight from my role to a role at one of our clients, or if they left for something they found on their own and came back to temp for us later. I don’t have enough of a relationship with any of these previous employees to just ask them, and I don’t want to put my coworkers in an awkward spot if it’s something that’s Just Not Done.

  105. Teapot Fundraiser*

    Is it normal for c-suite execs to be heavily involved in areas outside their immediate department? I work in fundraising for a Large Teapot Research Nonprofit, and our Chief Philanthropy Officer gives a LOT of input, attends meetings, and oversees communications related to things such as: teapot paint colors, teapot-making seminars, website design for teapot projects currently underway, job descriptions of our teapot researchers, etc. Most of the time, he provides this input/oversight at the request of our CEO, but it just seems that much of it has nothing to do with fundraising for teapot research. In fact, up to 80% of his time in a given week is often spent on these other tasks, at the expense of the actual fundraising team’s projects (i.e., their emails/calls/questions to him about teapot fundraising or the upcoming meeting with top teapot funder go unanswered). But maybe this is normal?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’d say it’s not uncommon. Think of it this way – in a donation-driven nonprofit, basically ANYTHING the organization does has the ability to impact whether donors will continue to give, and (theoretically) the person with the best grasp of how donors will respond to any proposed change/initiative/etc is the director of philanthropy, so it makes sense the CEO would want them to weigh in before possibly making a decision that would alienate half the donor base.

      I think the issue of them not responding to their fundraising staff is a different problem entirely, and a much greater one. THAT is not normal (well it might be somewhat normal, but not healthy or productive).

    2. WatchOutForThatTree*

      Agree with TBLCS. Certainly not normal if fundraising responsibilities are left hanging. That’s a big problem.

      But, there is a real tension between a head fundraiser and the rest of the organization that do the actual ‘work.’ It’s just not possible to tell the CPO to go get us (setting up a whole us v. them dynamic) some more money so we can do the important stuff. People being people, that CPO is going to want to be involved, to be one of the ‘us’ doing the work. And, in a lot of ways the CPO does need to be involved… not least so that he can continue to speak with passion and conviction to funders about the current work being done.

    3. Onyx*

      I’m not in the non-profit sector, but I’ve found this surprisingly common in smaller companies I’ve worked at. As the company transitions in size to becoming a medium sized company, they have a hard time letting go of their involvement in the little things since they used to be involved in everything. I would imagine this would not be normal at a bigger corporation.

  106. Eukomos*

    My boss wants to be CC’d on pretty much any external email. And not just to people who don’t work at our company, any email to anyone not in our office, and sometimes to intra-office emails as well. She says it’s part of how she likes to be kept in the loop, and that strong communication is important to her, but she often forgets part of the project I’m working on and asks me why I sent an email, and maybe start changing her mind about the project so that I have to start over or give up on something that seemed to me to be going fine halfway through. Other times it’s something I would have caught her up on in our weekly one-on-one so I feel like I’m just filling up her inbox for no reason. Also if she likes the email she often sends a little “good effort” to me which feels a bit patronizing.

    My previous job had a very, very hands-off supervisor (like, don’t see him for weeks at a time and then only if I insist on one-on-ones) so I realize I’m going to have to go through some adjustment to work more closely with my new boss, but this has to be a bit much, yes? And is it all a bit much, or are there some aspects that are normal and some that are weird?

    1. Anna Canuck*

      My manager likes me to CC him more than I think is necessary, but he doesn’t really comment on much that gets sent. She seems a bit over the top, but within “micromanaging normal” that may relax in time.

    2. Middle Manager*

      That sounds a little much to me. I require cc: on significant emails. All the emails would be a poor use of my time.

    3. CynicallySweet*

      This is weird, and a really inefficient use of your bosses time. I have no suggestions of how to deal with it, but I can def tell you it’s not normal

    4. Juniantara*

      It’s a common way for bad managers to micro-manage, so it’s not “normal” but unfortunately not uncommon enough to count as something you can refuse or call in HR or senior management on

    5. Wharton*

      Out of four main managers I’ve had, one fits this description perfectly, so I’d say not the norm but not unheard of.

      And in my role for that manager, I seldom email, so that’s not taking up too much of her time. In your case it seems more wasteful, but it might just be somthing you know you have to deal with. Maybe there’s space to push back by assuring her she’ll get the full run-down at your weekly meetings? Maybe give a specific example, like a convo that had a lot of back and forth, and how you could efficiently summarize it for her.

    7. Onyx*

      It is a bit much and my worst boss ever was exactly like your boss. They should be cc’d on client projects or very important communications, but otherwise, they should trust you to communicate properly.

  107. Raena*

    I work for a startup and am paid hourly. Our work is seasonal so spring/summer/fall are our busiest times. Work is very slow right now. I had a meeting with my boss to discuss the fact that I need more hours, and would like to take on additional responsibilities etc. He gave me suggestions which still leave me short of my desired hours. A colleague wants to delegate some of her tasks to me which is awesome but I’m struggling and have been for a while. We lost 30% of our business so things are tighter than they’ve ever been. I keep an eye out for other positions and apply if they are right but is it normal that my boss does not seem concerned with the fact that I have been having financial struggles for months due to my lack of work??

    1. Raena*

      I wanted to add that my boss is also the owner of the company so he is directly impacted as well by how much work we have.

    2. Drax*

      That’s fairly normal unfortunately. Employers tend to look at the business bank account and they aren’t that concerned with your bank account. That being said, that’s not all employers, it is common but it’s more of a 40% common.
      It’s also very common for people to leave when faced with an employer like that.

    3. Natalie*

      For a business just starting out, yes, I’d say this is eminently normal, especially with seasonal work and especially especially since they’ve lost clients. The business has to operate within a budget. If they don’t have a particular need for you to be working more, it’s simply not financial feasible of them to give you more hours just because you want them.

      You said you are struggling – would you chose right now to increase some optional expense of yours? Probably not.

      It’s absolutely fine to decide that this is too unstable/unpredictable for you and find another job, though.

    4. LSP*

      I’m sorry for your situation. Unfortunately, a business owner is going to be concerned with his business, and your financial situation is yours to deal with, even if that means quitting and finding a more stable job. After losing 30% of its business, I would not count on this company to be able to give you the hours or work or financial stability you need.

  108. CJM*

    Is it normal for your boss to scold you after you ask a noisy colleague on another team to please keep it down so you can focus on your work?

    Details: I’ve wondered about this for years! Picture an open floor plan in a large IT company, my noise sensitivity and a coding project on a tight deadline, and noisy colleague X on a different team that sat next to my team. X had a bad reputation for shoving her work onto others and for chatting so loudly about personal stuff most of the day that we all heard her loud and clear, including her frequent squeals of laughter. Management didn’t seem to care and promoted her to be a team lead under her team’s manager. I mostly suffered silently; noise-canceling headphones didn’t block her constant noise. But about four times in a year and a half, I screwed up my courage and walked over to X and her pals and asked “Would you please keep it down?” The last time I asked, X kept her back to me in her group of pals, and I spoke to them from about ten feet away. I did say “please” but probably sounded frustrated. X immediately complained to her boss that she felt intimidated by me, X’s boss marched into my boss’s office (I saw it), and then two minutes later my boss called me into his office and told me to never again ask X to be quiet. I told him I’d read advice (here on AAM) to approach colleagues directly with such a request, but he thought that was an awful idea. Within a few months the whole thing happened again to my teammate Y, a team lead and X’s equal in the hierarchy, after X and Y disagreed on a project’s direction. X complained that she felt bullied by Y, and Y was scolded like I was. X became louder and pushier than ever, and Y and I felt demoralized because our own manager didn’t have our backs. Other than those two scoldings, he gave us glowing reviews. To be clear, my boss didn’t manage X, and X was a level below my boss in the hierarchy and a level above me — but she had no authority over me because she was on another team.

    1. CynicallySweet*

      Scold, no. Tell you that’s not the best way to handle it, possibly. But you have bigger problems here. Your office is being run by a bully (or that’s what it sounds like).

      Have you tried asking your boss what a better solution would be? He clearly has a problem with you addressing it yourself, so ask him how he would like it to be handled when X is being so loud that noise canceling headphones don’t block it out, and it’s preventing you from working. At a min the answer should be telling

      1. CJM*

        He told me during the scolding to talk to him directly when the noise got bad so he could handle it. But he was terrible at solving personnel problems, so I had no faith that would help — plus I would’ve been in his office every single day! We duct-taped together a weird solution, as I described below. And you’re absolutely right about the office being run by a bully. I think it still is.

    2. Bubbleon*

      I think it might have helped your case to say “would you mind keeping it down or going into the kitchen/conference room/shared space? I’ve got an important thing due today and I’m having a tough time concentrating with the noise” instead of just “would you please keep it down”, but as long as it wasn’t a snarl I can’t see a scolding being a good response to this. That said, if the first 3 times hadn’t worked, I probably wouldn’t have tried it the fourth.

      You said you wondered about it for years, please tell me you’re not still in the same place? X sounds like a bully and the managers sound clueless

      1. CJM*

        I retired about two years ago. The scolding took place about four years ago, and soon after that I quietly planned an early retirement. That plan emboldened me to behave more assertively about the unacceptable noise. Coders need to concentrate deeply to solve tough coding problems, and I simply couldn’t do that in a noisy area. After a few chats with my boss about how to solve the problem (that’s obvious, right? get rid of X or make her follow rules, but management was too weak for that), he ordered me a laptop so I could leave our noisy open area to work in an empty conference room. I mostly spent my last two years away from my desk. It was challenging to find a new room each time a meeting was booked, but I made it work. And yes, X was a bully. She’s still there and still a terrible burden to her colleagues. The managers were clueless, to say the least. But my life is good — and quiet — these days! :)

  109. Give me a "W"!*

    I used to work at the main corporate office for Walmart. We did the cheer in large meetings, but not on a daily basis.

    We were also expected to smile at and/or greet anyone we passed in the hallway. There were no expectations around saying hi or bye to coworkers when arriving or leaving for the day though.

    2. Middle Manager*

      I’m guessing that’s a big part of their culture. I wouldn’t be a good fit for forced cheerfulness. But I don’t think it’s entirely atypical of large brands like Walmart or Disney that put a priority on that kind of thing.

  110. Child at Heart*

    This is for the preschool teachers out there!

    This year we have one child, let’s call them Hazel, who would not be safe or follow rules. This 3 year old threw materials at other children, called them names, encouraged her friends to follow her actions, hid from the teachers whenever she could, climbed on shelves… and then in December, as I was picking her up and placing her back safely on the ground, she bit me. Through my sweater, thankfully. I reported it and while she was taken out of the classroom that day nothing else was done. When we came back from winter vacation she bit me again. My manager said my other teacher would handle the discipline for now and if Hazel’s behavior did not change within a month we’d suggest her parents hire an aide (we’re a private Montessori school) and if they refused or could not, Hazel would have to leave. February and no change in behavior, not any information on whether my manager mentioned an aide to the parents. Everything became moot because the family is not returning next year, but…
    Is it normal to have a child be so disruptive and harmful to other children and the teachers, but not be expelled? Hazel turned 4 early this year, for age reference.

    1. Parenthetically*

      Wow, no, in my experience in education, for liability purposes alone, schools have to have clear guidelines about steps that must be taken in case of persistent behavioral issues. Biting a teacher would be a hard line in every school I’ve been in, as it’s a clear sign the child is not ready for that kind of environment. I most recently taught at a private school and we had very clear guidelines that had to be followed for behavioral issues, and ended up several times over the years asking families to find other environments for their kindergarteners who just weren’t ready for school. That level and persistence of disruption is going to drive other families away for sure, and should have been dealt with much more decisively much earlier in the year. I’d hold it in your mind as a red flag.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I am not a pre-school teacher, but I have some familiarity.

      To be expelled, would be a hard line that schools would be unlikely to jump to. However, there does not appear to have been any middle-ground stuff happening. Meeting with parents to address issue, discuss general disruption, agree on approaches to attempt to correct the behavior, etc. – which you would have been involved with as the person expected to carry out those approaches. Switching to another teacher for discipline could potentially be a short term solution, depending on circumstances. But if those approaches failed, then it would move to the parents hiring an aide or needing to expel the child as a question of something that the school has tried to address with the parents and child, but cannot safely have the child in the classroom because the school does not have the resources/training to deal with a child that has that level of issues. Somewhere in there might also be recommendations for testing for learning disabilities or other issues (i.e. allergy/medical issues that make it hard for the child to regulate their own temper/listen/etc.).

      All of this would happen rather quickly – like, never should have gotten to December and the biting without them.

    3. Book Lover*

      Not a preschool teacher, sorry.

      The preschool my kids went to would do everything possible before asking a family to leave – they would hire an additional person to shadow biters, for example. I’d say that for a 3-4 year old to be biting is a bit unusual, but not that much of a rarity. And my kids were a pain in the backside and I certainly appreciated that at the end of the day, I would get a nice little report saying that my kid was adorable but needed to work on not infringing on personal space/using words instead of hands/etc. rather than being told I needed to find a new daycare.

      I had a discussion about biting with the head of the preschool once and was told that only once in a couple of decades had they had to tell a family they couldn’t accommodate their child any more because they couldn’t keep the other kids safe.

    4. Public Health Nerd*

      I taught at a private Montessori preschool for a while, and they were doing stuff like that. We had kids who really should have been getting special education or behavior supports but weren’t because they were in a private school without the resources or training to give them.. I think it’s unsurprising but still terrible.

  111. Llellayena*

    I have an “is this normal” from the good, might be a rainbow unicorn end of things: This is in Architecture, which is generally known for overwork/underpay/no work life balance/old boys club kind of atmosphere. I’m trying to figure out which of the fantastic things I get here I could possibly find elsewhere if I decide to move on (not currently likely).
    – most weeks I don’t need to put in more than 40hrs
    – overtime is paid (we’re exempt)
    – they highly encourage vacation time (use it or lose it to prevent burnout) and going home if you’re sick and the available time is a normal amount and increases with longevity
    – regular feedback and yearly more-than-COL raises
    – formalized mentorship program (as well as informal) and a generally supportive environment for learning and advancement
    – Only once in dealing with architecture/construction people have I felt like my being petite and female MIGHT have contributed to not being taken seriously. (This one is more than just my firm, I may have just been lucky)

    There’s more that’s fantastic but those are the things I can quantify and would give me a good idea of the atmosphere in a new place. I’m not looking to leave right now, but every once in a while I start thinking I don’t want to get stuck doing the same type of design for my whole career. So which parts of these are likely to be “normal” in other architecture firms?

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      I think you know the answer to your own question. You said architecture is generally known for the opposite of the things you are experiencing now. So… it’s probably not normal. I would definitely say that if you’re loving everything right now, just stay where you are and be happy! The more experience you have, the pickier you can be when it comes to the time that you are perhaps starting to feel like it’s time to branch out into other areas of design. If and when you reach that point, if you find you don’t have the opportunities at your current firm that you’re looking for, then when you start to interview at other places make sure you do a lot of research. Talk to other people in your industry who know about the reputation of those firms and things and be picky. Ask specifically about raise structure, bonuses, benefits, etc. You may find a lot of places less than stellar, and that’s the point at which you ask yourself what you’re willing to give up. Are you willing to trade off great work life balance for less pay, less vacation, but more creativity? Things like that.

      Until then, enjoy your unicorn!

      1. Llellayena*

        Yeah, I’m definitely not expecting to find this everywhere, since it is contrary to the norm. I’m more hoping that the standard atmosphere is LESS standard than I think it is. Like, do other companies exist that are (almost) as great as mine even if I’d be hunting for a while, or am I generally doomed to fail if I finally decide to look.

        1. Sleepytime Tea*

          If you spend enough time hunting, you would probably find one, yes. But it might not be in your area and require you to move, you probably will be hunting for quite awhile, and of course not everything will be exactly the same. There will be trade offs.

    2. designbot*

      I’ve worked for architecture firms in a couple of capacities for around 15 years. From tiny firms where it was just me and the owner, and The Biggest Firm In the US, and everything in between. I hate to tell you this, but the only one of these that is normal is having a formalized program for training/licensure support. And that is only in the larger firms.

    3. Grumpy McGrumper*

      I currently work at at an Architectural firm and we have none of these things. You are very lucky!

      We have little PTO, no sick days, no paid overtime and everyone routinely works over 40 hrs a week – weekends included, no raises, not even COLA. No end of year/holiday bonus.

      I am burnt out and looking. And I am not even an Architect, I am support staff, yet still expected to keep these hours and “fit into the culture”. Now I know why we have high turnover here. I will NOT be looking for another support role at an Architectural firm.

  112. cactus lady*

    Oof it’s been a morning and I completely misread this post. Alison, can you delete my comment?

  113. AnonyMouse*

    Is it normal to not get praised/have others be praised for your work and be expected to let it go?
    I’m a junior person on a team of two (but I’ve been here 2.5 years so far) and recently I’ve had multiple projects where everyone else on the project was explicitly thanked by name but I was not or where the senior person on my team was thanked when they did little or no work on the project. Generally no one has bothered to correct these mistakes in the past and the one time I did (jumping in to correct someone that I was the department rep for a project, not the other staff member and thanking them) I was told afterward that I should have let it go by my manager. For context, I do work in a support department but so do other team members who do receive recognition so it feels weird and I worry that it’s going to count against me when it comes to reviews/raises if no one knows who I am or what I’ve done.

    1. LSP*

      It sounds like you tried to bring it up in the moment, but if it’s something happening often and it’s clear that you are being left out, it’s reasonable to bring it up with your manager. I’d keep the tone inquisitive, rather than complaining.

      However, I would keep in mind that there is often an assumption that thanking a senior member of a team counts as thanking “the team”. If you work with thoughtful people, they will redirect the praise back to you when it’s deserved. If you don’t, then they’ll just take the praise and the credit. It’s not fair, but you would need to decide if it’s a hill you want to die on, since it can come across as petty. Again, that’s not fair, but it’s not uncommon for a complaint of that kind to come across that way.

      1. designbot*

        I agree with your last paragraph. I’m a senior member of a team and find that people in my office assume that anything having to do with teapot graphics must have come from me, since I’m responsible for supervising teapot graphics. So thus far, this reads as normal to me. What’s less than ideal is that your team lead or whoever is getting praised not making it a point to include you. It does not diminish their credibility or achievements to be like “Oh that was all thanks to Mouse!” or “Thank you, and thank you to Mouse, Cat, and Puppy, who were our boots on the ground for this project.” It’s good management practice to share credit and promote the work of your employees, but it sounds like whoever’s directly above you is failing to do that.

    2. CynicallySweet*

      This is weird. Since you’re the most junior it maybe wouldn’t be weird, but given this: “I’ve had multiple projects where everyone else on the project was explicitly thanked by name but I was not”. It’s weird.

      To be clear if you worked mostly on something and then a senior member signed off on it, it wouldn’t necessarily be weird for them to get the praise, but the whole being left out when others are named is a little weird. Jumping to to correct something, which COMPLETELY understandable, obviously isn’t the best way to get it fixed (and could read as jockying, which may or may not be ok depending on your CO).

      I’d talk to your boss about the pattern you’ve seen emerging. Make sure your tone isn’t at all ‘woe is me’, and focus more on the real world ramifications rather than demoralizing feeling (which idk if you have them, but I certainly would)

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Sadly not uncommon, but that doesn’t make it less horrible. If they are calling out just the team leader, for example, then that’s something I wouldn’t call out. If they call out 4 people on a 5 person team and you’re always that 5th person left out, then I would maybe talk to your manager and not phrase it as “I’m not getting the recognition I deserve” but rather “I’ve noticed that the team will get thanked individually for their work but frequently my name seems to be forgotten. Can you tell me if there are any concerns about my contributions? Or any advice you have for my professional presence?”

      I’ve been in this position. One time it was just an asshat CFO who had favorites and was blatantly sexist. One time it was that despite having been on the team for a couple years everyone else had been there so much longer that people would be on auto-pilot and just say the names they were used to saying in the past. It can vary a lot.

      But I will tell you this. You will work in places where NO ONE gets thanked/recognized. And that will be sadly normal as well. I have learned that it’s important that YOU take pride in your work and feel good about it. Outside validation is a good thing. It feels good. It makes us feel appreciated and we like our jobs better. But it doesn’t happen consistently, so it’s important not to rely on it for your own appreciation of yourself.

    4. Anon this time*

      In my experience, this is normal though not good. It’s just one of the many toxic elements of (usually corporate) work culture.

  114. Anonymous Educator*

    Although it’s great to crowd-source what’s normal, the fact that people have to ask makes a really good case for changing jobs from time to time (maybe not every year or few months in a job-hoppy way but every 3-6 years). Yes, some people are in the first year of their first job out of school, and so they genuinely have nothing to compare to, and there’s nothing wrong with staying at a job for decades (that’s what my parents did and a lot of Boomers did and could do), but I’ve learned a lot from working at lots of different places, including what’s normal/not normal and toxic/not toxic, so I’d highly recommend it.

  115. Lettuce Mutton Tomato*

    Is it normal to have a boss who vacillates between micromanaging and being so hands off they have no clue what it is you do? I work directly for the owner of a small company. Many of my duties are done independently and it seems like I’m trusted to manage my own schedule and tasks. They’re big ticket items too, like making sure we’re registered for trade shows, making sure we’ve filed the appropriate business paperwork with the state, etc. I’m convinced my boss doesn’t actually know half of what I do. All he knows is that if he asks for information or a document I’ve got it prepared already.

    But then he’ll get upset with me for not updating him about something so mundane. These are usually basic, no brainer things like, “Did you return that customer’s phone call?” or “Did you mail that letter?” It doesn’t help that I get those questions in the most obnoxious passive aggressive method possible, usually something like, “Did you return the customer’s phone call or is that something you just weren’t going to bother to tell me about?” For the record, I never drop the ball on things like that so I have no idea why he’s concerned. My barometer for understanding when he wants an update is completely thrown off. I’m now erring on the side of updating him on every pointless thing but I find that incredibly annoying and, frankly, silly.

    1. marshu*

      Normal, but still extremely annoying. Have you asked him outright what specifically he wants you to update him about?

    2. SF*

      My boss is the exact same way! I think it’s normal for some people who are managers to do this who also have control issues or feel like they need to stay on top of their employees work. At first, I interpreted it as a trust thing, that he wasn’t trusting me to do the simplest of tasks and needed to check in on everything. You have to also consider that they don’t have time to stay on top of everything you’re doing and it could just be his way of checking in on things to make sure you’re doing your job. Tone, attitude, and how you interpret his micromanaging behavior can make all the difference between a good and bad boss-employee relationship. I’ve just learned to let those moments roll of my back and trust in myself to know that I’m doing my job right and to trust that my boss will see that. It’s not silly to update him on every little thing, I actually started doing that as a result to show my boss that I was doing the mundane things he’d bug me about. It actually helped because I could reference emails that I cc’d him on and show him that he was in the loop even if he didn’t remember so the concern ends up back on his end. Eventually he told me to stop cc’ing him on things and I took that as a sign of trust and him backing down from being super micromanagey.

  116. Janie Jones*

    How many meetings are too many? I have the double whammy of working for a giant international corporation and having a very touchy-feely manager who wants us to talk everything out in person. I have an admittedly low tolerance for this kind of stuff, so I don’t know if my team has an absurd number of meetings or if this is normal for a big company and I’m just being a grouch.

    I’m a groomer at Alpacas R Us, which was bought last year by Global Farm Animals. Before the sale, my whole team had a one-hour meeting every two weeks, and each individual groomer had a monthly half hour solo meeting with their manager. This worked great for me, because we could discuss team issues as a group and bring up individual concerns. Then we were acquired by Global Farm Animals, there was a management shakeup, and now we have the following meeting structure.

    Every two weeks alternating (so one meeting a week):
    1 hour meeting for the whole grooming team, which includes shearers and wool sorters
    1 hour meeting for just the shearing team

    Every month, a 1 hour one-on-one meeting with our direct manager

    Every quarter, a 1 hour meeting for the whole wool processing team (shearers, sorters, cleaners, and packagers)

    In addition, we gave the following quarterly town hall meetings that every subsidiary employee is expected to attend. My managers are very adamant that groomers attend these so we “know what’s going on at the company,” and will physically round everyone up to come sit in the main conference room for viewing. I’ve been told that these meetings take precedence over any shearing project. These meetings are between 1.5-2 hours long.

    Global Farm Animals town hall: this meeting covers the overall strategy and performance of GFA, upcoming campaigns and launches, and market position. Often the whole meeting will be spent covering a new dairy animal campaign and not bring up alpacas at all.

    Alpacas R Us town hall: this meeting covers strategies, marketing, and performance for our company, as well as employee milestones and upcoming social events.

    Fiber division town hall: this covers the strategies and performance of just the fiber animal divisions under Global Farm Animals, including my company, a merino wool company, the angora rabbit division at another small company, and the sheep department at GFA. Often the whole meeting will be spent discussing upcoming sheep’s wool and cashmere campaigns for GFA, with only a slide or two on my company’s performance.

    All in all, I’m spending up to 6 hours a quarter sitting in meetings that barely pertain to my company, let alone the actual work that my team does. It drives me absolutely bananas, but is this normal for big companies like this?

    1. JanetM*

      For what it’s worth, I work in an IT Project Management Office at a large public university. My quarterly meetings are:
      * Weekly 1.5- to 2-hour staff meeting (my manager, the two senior team members, and me)
      * Monthly 1-hour individual meeting with my manager
      * Quarterly project reviews, 8 hours split across two days.

      This doesn’t count all my project meetings (most of my projects meet for 1 hour every other week).

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      In my experience as an employee of a small subsidiary of a LARGE company. Yeah, this is normal. And 6 hours every 3 months isn’t too egregious really. It’s annoying, but not really surprising.

    3. Antilles*

      All of this is completely and totally normal; some of it is arguably even the smart way to run things! I’ll break it down bit-by-bit in a follow-up post, but the tl;dr is 6 hours per quarter in meetings is likely well below the average.

      1. Antilles*

        1.) Every two weeks, 1 hour meeting for the whole grooming team, which includes shearers and wool sorters
        Fairly reasonable. The theory is that this produces a more unified team, helps people understand what their colleagues do, and keeps the company from building a bunch of isolated silos.
        2.) Every two weeks, 1 hour meeting for just the shearing team
        Depending on the specifics of your actual job, one hour every other week for department-only meetings might actually be too low. Most professional companies I’ve ever worked at have team meetings every single week to coordinate workload, make sure nobody’s too overloaded, and coordinate staff/administrative support as needed. These are (should be) different from #1 in that it’s a smaller group, so you can get more detailed.
        3.) Every month, a 1 hour one-on-one meeting with our direct manager
        Keeping up with your staff on a regular basis is good management practice and allows you to provide timely feedback and address issues when they’re still fresh. It would be even better if it was instead “weekly 15 minute meetings” rather than “60 minute meeting every four weeks”, but this is a smart move.
        4.) Every quarter, a 1 hour meeting for the whole wool processing team (shearers, sorters, cleaners, and packagers)
        Same philosophy as #1 here – you’re letting people know about large scale issues. This keeps people feeling like they’re part of the process and can also help prevent pernicious rumors from spreading. Quarterly seems about right for this sort of thing.
        5.) In addition, we gave the following quarterly town hall meetings that every subsidiary employee is expected to attend.
        This is the only part that I disagree with. The concept and intent are reasonable, but having all subsidiary employees every single quarter is not efficient for anybody. A better way to achieve this same goal would be to either (a) make these annual rather than quarterly or (b) limit it to department managers, who then filter the information down to their teams in the next group meeting. That said, it’s still not an abnormal way to run things.

    4. OrangeFloss*

      I’d say it’s probably industry specific. I just counted and I have at 7-9 hours of meetings a week (we work in 2 week cycles, so I’ve got different meetings one week than the next, but they’re standard and don’t really change), 1 hour of which is optional. We also have quarterly company-wide meetings, as well as quarterly department-wide meetings (which are each about 1 – 1 1/2 hours).

      Your list of meetings doesn’t sound unreasonable from my position.

    5. Alianora*

      Sounds pretty normal in my experience, except for the mandatory town hall meetings. I have weekly team meetings, a weekly one-on-one with both my boss and our director, biweekly departmental meetings, and miscellaneous recurring calls with other departments.

    6. Ruby Thursday*

      Sounds normal. A half hour a month seems like it would have been inadequate for 1:1s.

    7. didi*

      Sad to say, but totally normal. Some large companies are addicted to meetings.

      While these things seem like a waste of time (and they probably are, sometimes) it’s important to pay attention because you will find out about new projects, get insights into the larger business beyond your role, and get to know how senior leaders think and act. If you want a different job at Global Farm Animals someday, this will be valuable intel.

  117. Anon this time*

    I’ve been waiting for something like this!!

    Something I’ve been dealing with for an extended period of time at my job that I can’t figure out is:

    I’m an analyst who writes client facing reports that goes through a supervisor before being delivered to the client. A general expectation is that by the time the report lands on the supervisor’s desk, it should be complete aka “client ready”. However, the supervisor will do one last quality check and change some things if they see fit before sending it to the client.

    There has been some..ambiguity around what constitutes “client ready”. In my experience, if the supervisor makes arbitrary formatting changes (like changing font color), that means the report wasn’t client ready, even though in my opinion, it was complete, I just didn’t read my supervisors mind in terms of what their design preferences they want. (To be clear, it’s not just as simple as color preferences. It’s much harder to anticipate even with the same supervisor, like using a chart instead of an list, using quote bubbles instead of boxes, etc.). The same goes with wording. Sometimes the supervisor will adjust the wording to say the same thing slightly differently, and the fact that they felt the need to change it means that my report wasn’t client ready and I’m not performing up to standards.

    Some additional context: I am otherwise considered a decent analyst by my project supervisors. Some of them even request me for their projects because their clients loved my work in the past. However, my raises and promotions continue to be blocked because I just can’t get the client ready thing right according to my manager. One time a supervisor caught a single typo on my report and made a huge deal about how I “neglected to proofread” my report. (I swear it was a single typo…just one typo.).

    So basically, I think my managers are psycho. I also know that I’m not the only one with this issue because my coworkers suffer as well. I’ve politely brought up my concerns with my manager but they won’t budge.

    So who is the crazy one here? I understand being detail oriented is important but I don’t understand the need to punish otherwise capable analysts for font colors. To be clear, my reports are generally well written and grammatically correct, but in my view, supervisors are making arbitrary stylistic changes and complaining.

    1. Alianora*

      The nitpicking is normal, but annoying. Sounds like your managers are classic micromanagers, who don’t differentiate between their own stylistic preferences and actual mistakes.

      Another possibility is that your company has very strict style guidelines, but in that case there should be readily accessible documentation for everyone; it shouldn’t be dependent on your manager’s mood.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Your managers are nuts, IMO. I wonder if your coworkers could band together and address it? “We all feel frustrated that, despite overall good work, we are being blocked from progressing in our jobs because of stylistic changes that aren’t relevant to the content we’re producing. We’re making all the changes we’re asked to make, but getting blamed and penalized for not doing things we weren’t told to do (which is accurate, yeah? If someone came and asked you to change the font or the color or the wording, you’d do it, right?).”

      Look for a new job, I’d say, but it may be worth it to push for change collectively.

      1. Anon this time*

        Yes, I always do exactly as I’m told. The issue is they retroactively decide that something is a requirement (the font needs to be bigger, for example), and then criticize for not meeting expectations that were never articulated. Sometimes I wonder if I missed out on some universal report requirement.

    3. Jess*

      For work going to a client, one typo is a typo too many. It’s like having a typo on your resume.

      As for the formatting stuff — if you have a style sheet, the final report should follow it (and be updated/expanded as needed), and if you don’t have a style sheet, it’s probably not a bad idea to create one. Even without a style sheet, if a manager is particular about how something should look, it’s reasonable for them to expect you to learn from their edits on one document and apply that to future ones — but if they are changing their mind on a whim, that doesn’t really help either of you. And if the expectation is that the document arrives client-ready and you have a new element that it’s unclear how to format, that may be a question to address *before* you deliver the document.

      1. Anon this time*

        That makes sense but then what is the point of sending it to the supervisor?

        We do use stylistic guide and templates and I follow them to a T! The problem is not every supervisor likes the guide and the blames it on me. (Our company colors are green and orange and one of my supervisors constantly complains he doesn’t like the shade of green. I just don’t know what to do.)

        1. Parenthetically*

          No, you’re dealing with irrational people. I wonder if you could start by asking those kinds of questions — “Hey, what should I do if I follow the style guide exactly and get pushback about something in the style guide?” or “Is there a larger document I’m missing? I keep getting feedback about X and Y, but I’m following the style guide exactly.” or “How should I handle feedback from Jane Just to reinforce that yes, you are DOING AS YOU’RE INSTRUCTED and still being penalized as though you’re making errors, when it’s not a matter of right/wrong at all.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      The extreme nitpicking and client ready standards are probably normal for that industry.
      But withholding raises over these standards seems not normal or right, given the current workflow. If the managers are still making edits, it’s just the final pass, i.e. “not client ready” and the analysts shouldn’t be punished for that.

    5. Stained Glass Cannon*

      I do work very similar to this, and I think you’ve got a few problems here, so let me try and hit them one by one.

      Expectation that the report should be “client ready” when the supervisor gets it – normal.
      Supervisor’s QC and making changes – normal.
      Ambiguity regarding “client ready” – this is a bit subjective. Sometimes the supervisor may have certain insights into specific clients’ preferences that they might not have shared with you, and that’s also normal. But if the supervisor is blaming you for not reading their mind, that’s *not* normal.
      Raises blocked because you “can’t get client ready right”, especially if that’s linked to you not being able to read the supervisor’s mind – NOT NORMAL. Your manager can’t see the wood for the trees.
      Supervisor making a big fuss over one typo – I’m afraid that is normal. While the quality of your work probably shouldn’t be gauged by design elements, it does include grammar and spelling, just as much as content.

      In summary: your supervisors are being unreasonable about the style and formatting, but the one who caught your typo is justified in being annoyed. I see that you’re following the template strictly – it may be worth documenting the ways in which you’ve done so and your supervisors have departed from the template, so that you can push back on the raise issue. However, do also consider that your manager may have other reasons for withholding your raises and promotions and is just using the “client ready” thing as a convenient excuse. (If so, they’re still a bad manager for being so opaque about it.)

      1. Anon this time*

        Thanks – this is helpful! The reason I’ve been dying to ask this question is because I do plan to continue in the same line of work, and was wondering if I was doomed to inertia as a mediocre analyst because of these stylistic hangups.

        To be clear, the clients do not care about design/have specific design preferences. All they would care about, I imagine, is whether or not the report looks legible/is easy to understand. I’ve been careful to submit reports that look neat and are well-written, so this shouldn’t be the issue. The style nitpicking is coming only from the supervisors.

        Also, I try my best to internalize feedback and anticipate it for the future, but it’s not always this consistent. One day it’s font color, but the next day it’s “I think this should have been portrayed in a chart instead of bullet points”. It’s not because they ALWAYS do charts, it was just what they preferred in that instance. I don’t care if they change it, but I don’t think I was objectively wrong in my original presentation just because it was different from their preference. This is what I’ve been frustrated about for the past 1.5 years.

        And while the main, overarching issue is the stylistic stuff, some supervisors give me more grief than others. One supervisor’s edits tend to have more typos than my original writing, making it seem like it was me who messed up. (He more than once sent reports like this). This same person another time deleted a chunk of my analysis because he thought it was “wrong”, but later learned on the client call that I was right. (Sorry I’m just ranting at this point. This part is obviously bad on the part of the supervisor, and not ambiguous. I think what I just wanted more clarity on is how common this type of dynamic is in the workplace in this industry, because to me it seems kind of toxic. I totally understand that reports should not have spelling or grammatical errors, but the stylistic stuff plus being thrown under the bus for my supervisors’ poor attempts at “fixing” my reports is driving me crazy.)

    6. JSPA*

      Request a sit-down to review the style sheet and default chart – types for various sorts of data with your manager. If neither exist…you may be looking at an excuse not to promote. But if boss is constantly expecting certain sorts of data in certain formats, you need to pick up on that, even if neither format is objectively “better.”

    7. Meredith*

      Are we looking for whether it’s normal or if it’s okay? In my experience, plenty of companies find excuses to not give raises because one of their top goals is spending as little money as possible. Good companies, of course, value their employees and try to reward and retain them. I think the latter is coming into play with these excuses – unless you know other people are routinely receiving raises and promotions.

      On the other hand, if they’ve “corrected” something like a font, color or style in the past, then they might expect you to learn that a particular supervisor prefers that style, and you should use it next time. Or a particular client needs charts instead of lists, so you should do that without being corrected next time.

      Is there any review prior to the final supervisor review of the client-ready document? Are they penalizing you for not asking questions as the project goes along? Do you have any regular meetings with a manager where you can address items you might have questions about because they have been corrected previously?

  118. Better Life On Mars*

    First office job. Small business, 15 workers. Fresh out of school.

    Is it normal to tell the new hire months in to project manage a project that had vague requirements, a capricious client, and was just doomed to fail?

    I’m feeling a bit scapegoated and humiliated because all my oversight and boss was overruling of anything I tried to implement to manage this project and I had my coworkers outright ignore me when I pressed on an issue that my client wants done.

    I’m not sure it’s normal because usually there should be a system for project management but they never had any for that department. I’m not sure if it’s me because I’m new or if it’s my employer.

    1. marshu*

      Difficult to tell from what you’ve written here. It might be that the project would have been doable for someone with more project management experience and your manager just underestimated how much support you needed. Or it might be that your manager, coworkers, and projects are completely toxic.

      The way to find out is to talk to your manager. Be frank about where you ran into difficulties (“my coworkers did not give me information I asked for”) and ask with an open mind about what your manager would suggest you do differently next time. If your manager’s answer is something vague like “you should have just gotten the information” without any specifics, you’re not going to get the support you need to succeed in this job. If your manager is able to suggest specific things to do differently (“call instead of email” or “ask them to choose between two options rather than asking open ended questions”) then it’s going to be on you to level up and make it work.

      1. Better Life On Mars*

        Well, to give more context: the project would not be doable by the deadline. In the idea of teapots: the client originally was just thinking of chocolate teapots. But then realizes that could mean white chocolate teapots, dark chocolate teapots, semisweet German chocolate teapots and what happens if we put had white chocolate handles on dark chocolate teapots…. all up to five days of the deadline.

        I have implemented what to do contact them as I have brought it up with my manager many times before but like they (my coworkers) still don’t follow through.

        1. marshu*

          I would say that sucks, but is also pretty common, especially when (as NotAnotherManager) says below, there’s not enough organizational buy in for good project management. I’d guess easily over half the projects I work on don’t finish on time, on budget, and with the original requirements. But I’m also not punished when that happens, everyone just kind of shrugs and completes projects with 80% of the requirements and 120% of the time originally scoped. (Which is frustrating! But not toxic.) I’d consider it much more of a red flag if you’re given this kind of poorly managed project, and then punished for not making it work to the original scope.

          I find it helps, at least my own mental status, to state deadlines objectively up front. “In order to meet our March 1st deadline, I need handle design specs from Sue by February 15th, and chocolate melting temperature specs from Linda by Feburary 20th.” Then if Linda doesn’t get back to you til 27th, well, the March 1st deadline won’t be met, as you predicted.

    2. Better Life On Mars*

      I realized this sounds more venting so let me rephrase that but, like is it just normal to be given a difficult project to manage as a fresh junior without any tools, told to just go at it weeks in?

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      I am not a PM, but I have a good friend who’s been doing it for about 30 years, and she says that what you’re describing is not atypical of organizations not invested in project management. If you can’t get organizational buy-in to setting scope (and use the scope as parameters to hem in the client) or to give the PM authority to task resources with work, then it’s going to be a real uphill climb. She did about 5 years at a place like that before being let go for being “ineffective” (don’t worry, she says, best thing that ever happened to her and actually kickstarted her senior-level career) and has been back in organizations that get and value project management (from large ones with PMOs to small ones that give her the authority to work).

      Her recommendations: Have a candid conversation with your boss about his/her expectations of your role and what you think you need to be effective to meet those – ask for what you need. Try throwing out an issue with the project and your proposed solution(s) and gauge feedback. If you sense you’re being set up to fail and won’t get support, look for an organization that will. And, if you do end up job searching, she says an organization with established PMs might be a better fit to get you more experience and mentorship.

      1. Better Life On Mars*

        Thanks, I have a been thinking about finding a job with a company that’s more estiablished enough to support me since my situation is a lot like your friends. There’s no buy in and I was originally brought in not for teapot project management but my knowledge of teapot sculpting and being able simplify teapot sculpting to others.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Being thrown to the wolves at a small business isn’t terribly uncommon, no. I mean it sucks, but it’s common enough. Small businesses in particular because you have so few people you can definitely have to start and immediately be thrown on a project. This happens in larger businesses in small departments pretty often too.

      But it’s terrible practice. And if they give you this trial by fire and then punish you for not being a mind reader for their requirements and didn’t give you support when people were ignoring your directions, then I would sincerely want to get out of there. It’s definitely not normal to hamstring you and then hold it against you.

  119. Introvert girl*

    Does my job suck or am I suffering from depression and see thinks in a negative light? This year we had are first annual evaluations. We had to fill in a form and than have a sit down with our managers. I filled in the form, two months ago and yesterday got an e-mail to fill in a review. But I never had my IRL talk. I asked other coworkers and they had theirs. Was I just overlooked by accident? Or is this some sort of revenge because I asked for a raise (which I didn’t get)?

    1. marshu*

      It’s much more likely it was overlooked – it’d be unusual for a manager to do anything as “revenge” on an employee, and extremely unusual to consider not having a meeting as a negative! But the only way to find out why you didn’t have a sit down is to ask your manager.

    2. JSPA*

      Asking around doesn’t confirm or deny whether everyone should get / everyone else has had an in-person review. Nor whether it was normal or an overstep to have asked for a raise, in your situation. Nor whether the boss is secretly so avoidant or easily embarrassed (or thinks that you are, or both) that they’d skip a face -to- face based on there being a disconnect between your assessment and theirs. Most likely answers:
      1. Procedural SNAFU
      2. Boss only has meetings if there’s something that needs discussing (note: making/ denying request for raise isn’t strange, may not rate discussing)
      3. You’ve signaled your introversion to the point boss thinks they’re doing you both a favor by skipping “pro forma” meetings.
      4. Boss is somehow mixing you up with another person who did have a meeting ( and is now in permanent limbo?) I know this seems unlikely but if there are two people in a large department of vaguely similar size, gender, coloration, racial background, features and demeanor –and those do not match up with the boss’s stats–then this has been known to happen.

      You deal with it by asking (by email, if you prefer). e.g. “dear boss, I’m perplexed to get from self-assessment to post- meeting review without having an actual meeting. Is my role exempt from face-to-face, or is there a glitch in the system?”

  120. sunflowers*

    Is it normal for an under-20-person office to be expected to give their retiring executive director literally $410 worth of gifts when she retires? I am salty about it.

    1. JM60*

      I don’t think so, although there have been several people who have written in about similar things. It’s definitely wrong though, since employees shouldn’t be pressured into giving money to those above them.

    3. Galahad*

      Not really… except … if she was only ED for the past few years, and had worked with at least half of the team for over 35 years, from when she was 20 and they “grew up” in the company together, and she only just recently was promoted over the others….. or, if she had done some extraordinary things like going to bat to give full pay for a 20 week mat leave for all women over the years.

      Also, re: retirement, sometimes in the 90’s and earlier, companies use to give very nice retirement presents, and then stopped doing that and the employees picked it up because it was the office culture to give a present / have a party and felt wrong to suddenly stop. (wrong to the next person to retire, anyway). So then the culture is employees getting the retirement gifts, and this continues because your company has very low turn over.

    5. JSPA*

      Heck no. With the caveat that there may be circumstances where the average paycheck is high enough or where the tenure of the person is long enough and most people have deep personal connections that people do go over and above.

      (I suppose the founding partner in a law firm might get quite a send-off from the other partners, with the paralegals tossing in five bucks as well, and that could easily fit your scenario.)

      I can also Imagine a situation where a retirement is accompanied by other problematic costs (like a retirement forced by health problems) so that people are digging a little deeper in their pockets.

      Absent those sorts of extenuating reasons I’d cast a jaundiced eye I’m the whole goal. even if those extenuating reasons hold I would not feel pressured to donate more than a token amount.

  121. JM60*

    How much unpaid medical leave beyond what the three require is normal? Although I was supposed to have been able to return in only 3 weeks, I was on medical leave for surgery not long ago, and the leave had to be extended several times because of a rare complication a suffered during the surgery. I ended up returning after 11.5 weeks, just days before the 12 weeks of legally protected leave that the FMLA gives me. Before returning, HR told me that they would offer me up to 30 days of leave beyond the 12 weeks of FMLA leave if I need it. Is 30 more or less than what most other employers would offer?

    1. Lusara*

      I don’t know what “normal” is, but I don’t think this is out of line. Some companies probably give more, and there are plenty that wouldn’t give anything.

    2. Kate*

      I think that increments of 30 are completely normal. We had one situation where an employee exhausted their FMLA and was granted an additional 30 days, but still wasn’t prepared to come back at the end of it and was granted another 30 days (with a doctor’s note). Obvious math, but 30 days is four weeks, which is a fairly substantial amount of time (on top of the FMLA) to have a job vacant.

  122. Mimmy*

    Is it normal for your supervisor to be away from her desk in meetings without telling the administrative assistant?

    Context: Our supervisor oversees instruction at our state-run vocational rehabilitation training center. She also one of two case managers for the students. Thus, people are always looking for her to ask questions, discuss situations, etc. However, there are times where she disappears. I’ll ask the AA “have you seen Penny?” AA: “I haven’t seen her”. Penny is always in the building; we just find that she can be very hard to track down. I get that – I just think that if she’s going to be in a meeting, she should tell the administrative assistant so that when people do come by, the AA can say “she had to meet with the teapot design instructors; try back in an hour”.

    1. marshu*

      Very normal. Executive assistants usually will manage the calendar of the exec(s) they’re assigned to and be able to answer this kind of question – admin assistants and receptionists are much less likely to have visibility into exec calendars.

      That said, it’s also perfectly fine to ask Penny if she can make her schedule more visible to make it easier to respond to questions.

    2. Ruby Thursday*

      Does she not have a calendar you can look in?

      This sounds normal to me either way. The AA should be able to say she’s not there and take a message.

    3. Alex in Marketing*

      This is totally normal. A lot of administrative work is fielding questions about your boss that you don’t always know the answer to, especially if you do not take care of their scheduling. Even when you do schedule as an AA, sometimes your boss is MIA without explanation. A lot of times, people who hold higher positions get pulled into meetings they weren’t expecting or meetings run way longer than scheduled.

      I think the best way to handle it is to say, “[Boss’s name] is away from her desk right now and I will let her know you stopped by when she does come back so that she can follow up with you.”

  123. Anon Girl*

    My manager recently left for another position. I was qualified for the position and applied even though it seemed unlikely they were going to consider me for some unknown reason (*cough* I’m a woman *cough*). In the interview process my boss literally said “Unless someone with higher certification and 100 years experience applies and wants to work for free” the job was mine. A few days later he backpedaled and blamed the C-suite saying they want an external hire and they did have an applicant that basically met his ridiculous statement. My old manager knew the applicant and told me they offered him the job but low balled him and basically ghosted him when he countered. Now the job just remains open and posted but no one talks about it. This is all after they said they were going to aggressively recruit and keep us updated. Is this at all normal?

    1. marshu*

      Yes. What’s not normal is your boss promising an outcome he didn’t have control over. People change their mind during a hiring process about what they want all the time.

  124. Killer Queen*

    So my question is about time off. I was in a unique position where I was able to lobby for more time off for our 0-3 years bracket (I’ve been here almost a year so it directly affects me). We had less than two weeks off originally and I was able to secure a full two weeks (or 10 days) off. This is PTO so both vacation and sick time off.

    I know it’s low because 0-3 years isn’t tenured, but to me it seems very low for both sick and vacation time. If I want to take a week vacation with my family in the summer I only have 5 more days for being sick, occasional one-day trips, mental health days, etc. Is this normal? Do most jobs give more time off or am I off base for thinking I need more?

    1. Galahad*

      Standard is 2 weeks vacation here for employees under 5 years. Sick time may be paid or unpaid, but at least 5-6 days paid is common. (Depends on your laws). 5-10 days of sick time is guaranteed, even if you have to take it unpaid.

    2. Lusara*

      Yes, this is low. Two weeks of vacation is pretty standard for low-level jobs, but generally sick time will be separate from that if the vacation time is that low. If it’s a combined bucket of PTO, then three weeks is more common.

    3. nora*

      My last job started at 8 days of PTO for the first year and never went above 18 days. Except of course for the leadership team who had all been there before the policy changed some years ago.

      But the job I had before that started at 20 days of PTO and went up from there.

      1. Onyx*

        Depends on your industry. I think that’s really low for my industry (tech) but I understand it’s more normal in traditional industries like banking or legal.

  125. Normal or nah?*

    Is it normal to be expected to complete a project during the week of an industry conference? This conference probably cost my employer about $3k for me to attend. However, my colleague back home texted my boss that I was being too slow in completing a project that was handed off to me and due the week of this conference. I have been attending sessions from 9am-5pm with after conference networking events. Is this normal?

    1. marshu*

      Yes, normal – usually you would schedule your time to complete the project before going to the conference, pass off any time sensitive pieces to other coworkers, and/or work overtime – it’s not unusual to for most people at conferences to be working 12+ hour days. Yet another reason business travel isn’t the perk people who never do it always seem to think it is.

    2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Normal, especially if the project is due the week of the conference. In most companies, work does not get delayed due to conferences unless management agrees in advance. I have spent conferences typing in my hotel room because I was unable to deliver something before the conference began. It’s a not-fun way to learn time management.

      1. Ruby Thursday*

        “In most companies, work does not get delayed due to conferences unless management agrees in advance”

        That’s a bit strong. I’d say it’s more the case that you can’t automatically expect to just drop your work.

    3. Ruby Thursday*

      It wouldn’t be normal for people to just guess that going to the conference means you won’t do your other work, no. It’s normal for that to be your responsibility to commuticate. If you won’t have time to do it you need to talk to the people expecting it.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, my work doesn’t end when I’m at a trade show or conference. It’s not unusual to be at the show 9-5 and go back to my room to work until 9 or 10pm. But usually, there’s no BIG huge projects, or I try to get them off my plate before I go, so I’m generally just doing follow-up, emails and that type of thing.

    5. Rose*

      Yeah conferences are actually WAY more work because you’re in session and then you get back to your room and work until 10, but your coworker should know you’re not going to be answering emails and calls and such as quickly as normal because you’re at conference.

  126. Managed By Word Salad*

    My manager like to shoot off quick emails to me from her phone when she thinks of it (because if she waits she will definitely forget). This means the emails come in from her Yahoo address instead of her company email address and they occasionally get filtered into my junk folder.
    Thanks not actually the thing that’s questionable.

    She uses voice to text and she NEVER PROOFREADS before sending! Here is the email I found in my junk folder today from 3 weeks ago

    “I did a lot of the items that we moved or put on the shelf this weekend but I did not put the. I didn’t do the equal exchange which is. I didn’t do the equal exchange which is by the specialty coffee on the bottom shelf. I didn’t do the equal exchange which is by the specialty coffee on the bottom shelf and I didn’t do. I didn’t do the equal exchange which is by the specialty coffee on the bottom shelf and I didn’t do the. I didn’t do the equal exchange which is by the specialty coffee on the bottom shelf and I didn’t do the wild harvest coffee which is now on aisle four
    Have a great day”

    I was able to decipher what she did, but am I right in thinking this is an absurdly unprofessional way to manage?

    1. Managed By Word Salad*

      Of course I now notice the one typo in my story (“thanks” should be “that’s”).

      But she’s beyond the pale. Nobody at work can decipher her missives.

    3. just a random teacher*

      Not normal, although my landscaper does this. (We had one very awkward day when voice-to-text picked up some words from whatever he was listening to and didn’t mute before composing a voice text, too, leading to a particularly garbled message with some real nonsequiturs.)

  127. Annabelle*

    How normal is it to miss your old job once you’ve left, and how long should that feeling last? I left my decent job (good pay, great projects, not-so-great people) and moved to a different company that has slightly lesser pay, what I thought were interesting projects but am now unsure, but the people/culture are better. It’s been about 8 months now and I’m still unsure if I made the right choice.

    1. Jane*

      Very normal to miss your old job. I still think fondly of a job I left 8 years ago, but that’s mostly due to the relationships I built with the people there. A few months ago, I left a job I hated and every once in awhile, something about that old job makes me miss it (getting free t-shirts, new computers, etc).

    2. Spork*

      I’m in the same boat myself. It’s easy to look back on past jobs with rose colored glasses and only see the good things. Keep reminding yourself why you left. It was obviously bad enough you eventually made the decision to move on. Store those reasons at the front of your mind, but also remember you don’t have to stay at this new job forever. It’s another learning experience along the way.

    3. didi*

      Totally normal. I had the same feeling myself and I have been at the “new” job almost 4 years! I think in any new job it takes a good year to figure out if you like the work and like the people. So I would give it more time.

  128. Karen*

    I’ve been working in various jobs for 20 years and I know this is not normal. I know I should probably start looking elsewhere. In the 4 months since I’ve been there two people have resigned, one person ‘retired’ and the Grand Boss told our accountant that there isn’t enough money coming in and she has til the end of April to find another job. They haven’t replaced the people who have left. I am learning a new industry and everything I’m doing is wrong, wrong, wrong. The culture is negative, majority of workforce takes 20 smoke breaks a day. Coworkers do not talk to me except to tell me I am wrong.

    Six weeks after starting my boss went on a 3 week holiday, I had to ask for help from hostile resentful coworkers. A few weeks ago my boss called me an idiot, then a few seconds specified he meant it lovingly, the next day he said to Grand Boss he was a ‘bloody idiot’. Yesterday he told me to shove my work up my ass. I got yet another email from a coworker yesterday that a quote my boss had checked was wrong and I had to do this to fix it – she sent it to everyone. I left early at lunch – I was so frustrated I started to cry.

  129. OpossumsNeedLoveToo*

    The culture at the accounting firm I work at as an admin assistant has been bothering me lately. When problems arise, even minor ones, you’ll never hear it from the person whose concern it was. Rather, that person goes and tells either our HR manager or our office manager. Then one of those two people will address it with the admin team member. I haven’t experienced this personally yet, but from the few times I’ve heard of it happening, the incidents were not at all serious and more just about the partner getting annoyed or angry about something and wanting someone else to “fix it.” To compound this, we also have one partner with a clear anger problem who shouts (although his voice is fairly quiet due to a health condition) whenever he is frustrated with the admin staff. I have mentioned this to my office manager a few times and keep getting the same answers about how he is sick and she had to learn to deal with it and think about the good he has done for certain employers (i.e. he helped our HR manager’s husband get proper cancer treatment using his connections). I’m wondering if I am wrong to see these things as toxic since it often feels like no one is as bothered by all of this as I am, aside from me and one other admin staff member. I would love any and all thoughts!!

    1. Rose*

      First one is super common. People don’t like direct confrontation. If there’s a system in place of reporting/having an intermediary handle it/someone they can report to most people will choose that 100% of the time. Second one with yelling is far less common but sounds not fixable if the manager is saying deal with it and I’m assuming going to HR is out since that’s who the partner helped. And, I mean Partners being awful is kindof a Known Thing.

  130. NotStingyJustWondering*

    Is it normal to be expected to give money for coworkers’ parties when they leave for a new job? My office routinely collects $10 per person for going away parties, even from people who do not even know the person who is leaving and do not plan on attending the party.

    1. Cat Owner*

      At my workplace it definitely has been – often because it isn’t an official thing and someone is organizing it. I’ve done it for people I don’t know particularly well but I was going to the goodbye because my team worked closely with theirs. It’s a little weird if you aren’t going, but I wouldn’t say unheard of? It is very dense of them if it is compulsory. And denseness, when people have good intentions, is pretty common.

  131. nora*

    Well this post sounds like a good opportunity to ask about last paychecks.

    I left a small and highly toxic nonprofit three weeks ago. That agency, for reasons no one fully understands, will *only* write a paper check for the very last one. The last payday for me was March 22nd. I was told they mailed my check on March 21st, and it should have taken no more than two days to get into my grubby little hands. I didn’t get it Monday and checked in to make sure it was mailed, when, and where. All good. I didn’t get it Tuesday and asked for a new check. No response. Yesterday I told the agency in writing to tell me immediately how they were going to fix the problem or I would report them to the state labor board. Within 20 minutes the Big Boss was texting me arranging for me to pick up my check today.

    So, problem solved, hurray. But I’m wondering how normal/typical/ethical it is to not direct deposit final paychecks? I’ve been in nonprofits for 10 years and working for some kind of pay for almost 20 and have never heard of this policy before.

    1. marshu*

      Normal. Some payroll software doesn’t do direct deposit off-cycle so paper checks are the only option.

      1. nora*

        Except my last check was written on-cycle. It ran on the exact same timetable as everyone else’s paychecks.

    2. Kate*

      Normal. As marshu said, a lot can depend on the payroll software. With ours, when an employee is terminated in the system, it will inactivate any direct deposit accounts unless we specifically keep them open- I can definitely see how inactivation could be the company’s default and thus the need for paper checks.

      1. nora*

        Interesting. This sounds like a scenario that doesn’t allow for severance, which frankly makes me even happier that I left.

  132. lucy_las_cruces*

    I’m a lawyer, and I’m wondering if it’s normal to get very little guidance or management. I spent two years at a locally prestigious plaintiffs’ firm, and I’m now in my second year of a federal district court clerkship–but I feel like I’ve never had a manager who was interested in managing me. At the firm, the partner I worked for would email me work, but was often annoyed or surprised when I had follow up questions, or didn’t feel immediately ready to meet and confer with opposing counsel by myself, defend a deposition, etc. Other associates didn’t feel like they were unprepared, though, and I can’t tell if that is because they were assigned to more hands-on partners or because they were better at faking it. The judge I work for now is the same way–he rarely offers any direction at all, and only asks after a case if it’s particularly high-profile or he thinks it has been outstanding for too long.

    I’ve purposely stayed away from big law because I thought that smaller offices provide more mentoring, but I’m now wondering if I’m expecting something that doesn’t really happen. I would love to hear if this sounds normal!

  133. KLChica*

    Is it normal for a boss not to acknowledge a major life event of his/her employee?

    1) I was working at a high school (40 teachers, 2 assistant principals, 1 principal) as a teacher and my father died unexpectedly. He was only 56 and the secretary forwarded his obituary to the staff by email (as is common in many schools when a staff member loses a loved one). Upon returning to work after a week of leave, only 1 out of 3 administrators acknowledged my father’s passing. (He simply said, ‘good to have you back’)
    I had been working at this school for two years and was on a first name basis with the administrators. I received several condolence cards from my colleagues and quite a few emails or in person exchanges of sympathy with other colleagues. Nothing from the principal and the other assistant principal. ???

    2) at another school, I was about to have a baby and my department head told me to please let them all know when the baby arrives. The baby came. I did let them all know and the principal also sent out an email of congratulations and a photo and the birth starts, names, etc. ..
    Radio silence from my department head (who is like my boss/supervisor). Months passed and no words of congratulations. Saw her in person and again no congratulations.
    ????? She has my work and home email addresses, my personal cell , and my home address.

    So, Is it normal?
    Thank you

    If it matters, I do make sure to reach out to my colleagues and express condolences / congratulations for life events.

    1. Someone Else*

      Both normal. The first one, it’s 50/50 whether you’d appreciate getting repeated condolences from coworkers vs being exhausted from being reminded all the time when you got back when you might just want to focus on work. Unless you had an especially close relationship with any particular colleague, assume they’re doing unto others and you happen to work with people who themselves would probably have preferred to not have it brought up, so they don’t bring it up.
      For #2 if the principal sent out an email of congratulations…that was work acknowledging it. Nobody else needed to. It wouldn’t have been odd if some did, but it’s also not odd that they didn’t.

  134. redorange*

    This is more of a structural question but how normal is it for a CEO/Founder to step down from that role but stay on as a staff member in the company?

    Our CEO/Founder has been the only CEO since the company’s founding a few decades ago but has also worked in another important role in the company on top of being CEO. He’s stepping down as CEO but staying on as a staff member in his other role rather than retiring. We now have a new CEO and new President to fill his role, but a lot of staff are concerned that the Founder will try to assert his power to control the company from behind the scenes even though he’s officially stepped down. I’ve always heard of leadership transitions and know they can be a big change but I’ve never heard of the person stepping down to stay in the company. A lot of us think the Founder is just not able to let go of the control and authority he has over the company and how it runs, and we all feel kind of uncomfortable knowing that our former leader is supposed to be treated like another regular staff member. Anyone else have this happen in their company or is this out of the ordinary?

    1. Meredith*

      Normal if he’s getting closer to retirement and by being at the company a few decades, I’d assume that’s the case.

    2. bookwyrm*

      My org did this! We had the former president work remotely (no one else works remotely) to help establish difference between his old role and his new one. It helped that he was super aware of the possible dynamics of undermining the new president by his presence, and after two years he retired.

    3. AlwaysAnOutlier*

      It’s pretty common for CEOs/founders to stay with the company in a different role. If the Founder has been with the company that long, he probably just wants a graceful transition toward retirement, assuming the new role is less stressful. It’s a benefit to the company, too, to keep his expertise in-house and have him available for the new CEO and President to consult. In fact, it might be a kindness to not just push him out the door. I see it as a good thing and a win-win for all of them.
      But as for you and your colleagues, it sounds like Founder hasn’t actually tried to assert his power, you’re just not sure how to deal with him in his new role. I’d say just treat him like a very senior person with a lot of expertise and use that expertise to your advantage. He’s just a person and always was; someone to be respected by virtue of being human and having lots of experience. Maybe he could be a mentor?
      In other words, until proven otherwise, I’d treat this as a great advantage with a lot of benefits for all concerned.

  135. Work-life Engineer*

    I just recently joined a new org doing IT/coding. During the interview process, I had asked about oncall time and was told there was an oncall rotation I’d be part of to respond to emergencies. Ok cool..this is normal. But then I get there and they said I’d have to participate in regularly scheduled biweekly Sunday night deploys. I have commitments during those nights and would have discussed that and possibly not taken the job had I known this. I discussed this with my boss and he seemed ok with training multiple people and my not doing the weekend releases, but I’m still a little uneasy about it: I’ve worked in IT for a while now and have never come across scheduled work on a weekend. Being on call and having to work on a weekend for an emergency..yes. Definitely. But scheduled and planned to have it always be on the weekend? No. Is that normal? The company also seems really badly run so I’m wondering if I should leave anyways even though I’ve only been here a month. (bg check didn’t even finish until after I had already joined and IT was refusing me access during the onboarding process because their HR didn’t follow up with the bg check company to make sure the check was done, boss didn’t schedule schedule regular 1-1s with me until I had been there a month, even though he does them regularly with everyone else, coworkers being very negative and constantly cursing and swearing over normal work task frustrations and the code base is buggy but senior coworkers complain and blame it on the tools even though I’ve used the tools before and know just by looking at their code they did the work wrong and are causing their own issues)

    1. marshu*

      Large IT department here – we always have weekend and evening releases, and on-call rotations to cover them. I work approximately one weekday evening and one weekend day a month. There’s always stuff that can’t/shouldn’t be done during business hours.

      That said, it’s also perfectly fine to decide that’s just not something you want to do, and it’s not cool that they didn’t tell you about it during the interview process. The buggy code and negative coworkers would bother me a lot more – that’s not an environment where you’re going to be learning anything useful, and in tech, if you’re not learning, you’re behind.

      1. Work-life Engineer*

        Interesting.. I *wish* I would only be working a couple evenings a month like that, but I just found out today that I’m on call all month, every month from 9-11pm S-TH as customers request me for maint and deploys, arrgh…more stuff not disclosed in the interview. Anyways, thanks for the info and your perspective! Sounds like I’ll be jobhunting again! >:)

    2. lailaaaaaaah*

      “bg check didn’t even finish until after I had already joined and IT was refusing me access during the onboarding process because their HR didn’t follow up with the bg check company to make sure the check was done, boss didn’t schedule schedule regular 1-1s with me until I had been there a month, even though he does them regularly with everyone else, coworkers being very negative and constantly cursing and swearing over normal work task frustrations and the code base is buggy but senior coworkers complain and blame it on the tools”

      The weekend work doesn’t stand out to me too much (though it was dickish not to tell you beforehand). The stuff above, though? That’s a whole bunch of red flags.

      1. Work-life Engineer*

        Thank you for your perspective on this-I appreciate it… I’ll def resume jobhunting again…I *thought* there was something off about things…glad to hear I’m not being picky or too sensitive.

  136. Someone Else*

    How much turnover is normal? Or maybe instead how much turnover is not a red flag? I know it probably varies by industry a bit, and obviously certain very entry level jobs you’d expect to turn over within 1-2 years regularly, but across a whole organization and all ranges of position, at what point should it give me pause (approximately)? And when you talk about turnover rates, what is the exact math being done there?

    1. lailaaaaaaah*

      It very much depends on industry, but I think for anything outside of sales/retail/hospitality/recruitment, >20% is the point I’d start to raise an eyebrow.

      The calculation is the number of leavers, divided by average number of employees (the number you had at the start of the year + the number you had at the end of the year, divided by 2), x 100.

      So, if you have 45 employees at the start and 55 at the end of the year, your average is 50 employees. If 5 employees leave during the year, then 5 / 50 x 100 gives a turnover rate of 10%.

    2. Meredith*

      Good companies would have concerns if their number started to exceed 10%. It means people are leaving because they are unhappy/underpaid or their are not hiring the right people to begin with. 20% would definitely be of concern to me as an employee, becauses I would hope they would flag something before that and have steps in place to address retention.

      I once worked for a company where my department of around 20 people had a 40% turnover rate in the year I was there. Tons of other red flags and a toxic environment for that and other reasons. I learned a lot and we had high standards for work, but sometimes when I think, “hmm, was it REALLY as bad as I thought?” (probably due to them gaslighting me at the end) I remember things like the FORTY PERCENT TURN OVER RATE and confirm that I’m not the one who was crazy.

      1. Steve*

        How do you determine that 10% is good and 20% is high? Isn’t there an inverse relationship between typical tenure in an industry and typical turnover rate? E.g. if typical tenure is 4 years, then turnover would be expected to be about 25%?

        1. gabster*

          Most places have between 5 and 17%, AFAIK (although again, it depends on industry). I once worked for a company that bragged about how low their turnover rate was- turned out that was in relation to the industry standard, and their turnover rate among the first year employees was ‘only’ 65-70%. I became one of them within five months of joining.

          So yeah. If a lot of people at all levels seem to be leaving? That’s something to watch out for.

  137. Nobody Here by That Name*

    I know my company is awful on multiple levels, but curious if this is one of them:

    There are select people who are listed as corporate employees but who work in different states around the country. Some of these people originally worked out of the corporate office, then moved for life reasons (marriage, family, etc) and were allowed to keep their jobs by working remotely. They usually work from their homes.

    From time to time they are required to travel to the corporate office and stay at least overnight if not a full work week.

    My question is: is it normal that when these folks are on those trips to corporate, they are NOT given reimbursement for their food expenses? People who travel between offices, even without an overnight stay, get a per diem for their meals. These remote workers – who again are all coming from out of state so they can’t easily nip back to their homes during a lunch break – are not.

    The reasoning given is that these are corporate employees so working out of the corporate office isn’t considered a business trip for them and thus there is nothing special about their meals. The employees’ opinions are that they are away from home and thus forced to take on the expense of buying each of their meals regardless of how they handle getting meals at home.

    What throws me even more is that the hotel and travel expenses for these trips are reimbursed, so it confuses me why food is the thing that isn’t included.

    So: is it normal for remote corporate employees not to get a per diem for food when they are being made to travel to the corporate office?

    2. WS*

      Not normal, but sometimes weird and dodgy things are put into work from home terms – like you have to pay for your own travel between “work” and home even if it’s only once a year and in another state, or you don’t get compensated for certain things. It’s dumb and penny-pinching.

    3. lailaaaaaaah*

      Not normal, though my workplace also has weird rules regarding travel and expenses (for instance, you can’t get expenses for any city closer to your home than your workplace- so the guy who works remotely several hundred miles from his contractual office doesn’t get expenses paid when he travels to any of the offices in between either).

    4. Meredith*

      Not normal if they are required to be in the office. Now, small companies will try to minimize reimbursement by making certain things “optional,” or communicating their “strong preference” for x, y or z. It’s also perfectly reasonable to have a rather low cap – $30 per diem would be quite low but could cover a few pre-packaged breakfast and lunch items, and maybe a really casual dinner. But to have this as an actual written policy when they have a separate per diem policy for other employees is weird and discriminatory. But companies try tons of discriminatory things re: remote workers, like illegally reclassifying them to contractors and that sort of thing.

    5. Antilles*

      Not normal. Remember the framework behind expense reimbursement for traveling employees: The company is covering additional costs that you would not normally be required to handle if you were working in your normal capacity.
      In this case, the fact that they’re technically “corporate” employees doesn’t change the fact that they are away from home and spending extra money for dining that they otherwise would not.

    6. Galahad*

      Sort of normal –all depending on your industry. Airline crew will be based out of city X, and expected to live there. Some people choose to live a state away, near family or in a lower COL area, and they will fly in to their base city long before their shift starts. Although the transfer flight travel on company equipment may be free, their food, hotel, other costs are not reimbursed… because they are classed as “living” in the base city (aka your corporate city in your story). The airline crew alsoneed official company approval to do this because sometimes the company needs them within a 4 hour call up.

      For your case, it is what they negotiated. Are they still considered to be corporate employees with an office that will be made available to them the moment they choose to move back? With the company preferring them to be in office? or is it an official remote work job?

  138. Autistic Farm Girl*

    My boss expects me to work crazy hours and i can’t figure out if it’s normal or not.
    I’ve been at my job 3 years, we manage 3 systems within the team and i’ve been the manager of all 3, so i know things pretty much inside out. There’s 2 other managers at my level (public sector so we’re exactly on the same wages). Yet my manager always expects me to work crazy hours, and never asks the two others (they’re newer employees and don’t know the systems as well). Meeting at 7.30am followed by a day until 6pm? That’s for me. Weekend working? Yup. Staying in the office until 7/8/9pm? Yup. Working whilst off sick? Yup. Working during holiday/bank holidays/christmas? Yup. And that’s all on a weekly basis, not just during busy periods.
    When i have to come in really early i sometimes ask to leave at a normal time (5ish) and she makes it look like she’s doing me a favour since there is so much to be done. I agree that there is a lot to do, but i’m also contracted to 7.5H a day, don’t get overtime pay and i want to have a life outside of work.

    I just don’t know if that’s a normal requirement when you’ve been here for a wee while and know the stuff really well :( thanks!

    1. lailaaaaaaah*

      Hoo boy, that’s…yeah, no that’s not okay. I work in the public sector, and sometimes you are going to stay past/get in earlier than your contracted hours- but that shouldn’t be the regular expectation, especially if it isn’t for the others. And surely if the other two members of the team don’t know the systems as well, then it’s incumbent on your boss to train them up, not you to take on extra work to cover for their lack of knowledge?

    2. Antilles*

      Not a single piece of this is remotely normal.
      1.) In a lot of industries, the typical 40-hour workweek has shifted a little to like “45 or 50” being standard, but you’re miles beyond that.
      2.) Working on weekends and till late evenings isn’t normal. In a salaried job, there might be individual days where this happens because you just really need to get something out the door, but definitely not as a weekly thing.
      3.) Working on holidays? Definitely not. Most industries/companies don’t not quite follow the exactly list of 10 government/bank holidays (e.g., MLK Day, President’s Day, and Columbus Day are each observed by less than a third of private companies), but the major holidays like Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th of July, and Labor Day are observed by the vast majority of private companies (90+%) and treated as real holidays where you’re only getting a call if it’s a building-on-fire level emergency.
      4.) Working while off sick? There are plenty of bosses who do hassle sick employees, but they’re the exception (and also dumb); this isn’t the norm in a functional company and even many dysfunctional ones.
      5.) Being irritated about asking to leave at a different time after showing up early? Not at all. A typical expectation is that flexibility goes both ways – maybe not as an exact minute-for-minute accounting, but as a general unspoken trade-off.
      tl;dr: Your boss is completely off the deep end. This kind of behavior is what drives good employees to leave.

      1. Autistic Farm Girl*

        Hi,

        Thanks! I thought i was the one expecting something not normal and that it should be done like that.
        Holiday wise, it’s expected that i’ll always be contactable, i had to take time away from my family christmas dinner last year for a piece of work that someone else didn’t finish. When i went away for a couple of weeks my manager asked me if i was taking my laptop with me to work (i was going on a road trip!).
        I even had a phone call one day where i was away for my step-mom’s funeral, apparently it was an urgent piece of work that couldn’t wait for me to be back the next day (i wasn’t given any compassionate leave).
        I was thinking about looking somewhere else, but couldn’t figure if it’d be the same everywhere or if this was just weird.

        So thank you, i’m not losing the plot. I’m going to start applying!

      2. Galahad*

        I had supervisors working those kind of hours, just to cover the start / overlap of 2 shifts (with a third mid day start shift). They did not get paid well.

        Because of scheduling needs, and the culture that you just keep working until X and Y are done for the day, I had to introduce 4 x 10 (aka a voluntary 12) hour shifts. At least they got an extra day off not at work. My advice is to look to see if that would work for you, too.

        Definitely cut out extra weekend days to get you closer to 45 or 50 hours.

  139. lailaaaaaaah*

    I have ADHD. My boss is aware of this, and at one point last year I was on a PIP for organisation/paperwork issues. I improved to the point that the director of my department commented favourably about it and I was taken off, but while I was on leave last week, my manager found a couple of mistakes in my work (I’d forgotten to log some meeting notes on the system, and hadn’t moved some actioned emails out of the inbox- otherwise, everything was fine and running smoothly, except for the fact that the only other member of my team went off sick for most of the week I was away, so my manager was doing all three people’s work and getting super stressed).

    Despite the improvements, despite the consistent good feedback I am getting from coworkers and other managers, she immediately threatened to put me back on the PIP at the final stage. She’s walked back on the threat now that everyone’s back in the office and she’s less stressed, but it’s been hanging over me ever since.

    She says often that she’s determined to keep me and my coworker, but as part of that she’s offering us support with training courses. He’s already started it- I won’t start until September, so he’s getting loads of time and support with her and senior managers while I’m just kind of… sitting here picking up the slack. This is the only perk that she’s offering, and I’ve also realised recently that the salary uplift I thought I was going to get next year isn’t going to happen until the year after.

    Is it time to start looking for something else? I generally get on well with everyone here, and it’s usually a very supportive workplace. It’s just that money’s getting a bit tight, and I don’t want to work with someone who’s just going to yell at me and threaten disciplinary action over minor mistakes (especially when other people have made much bigger ones and got away with them).

    1. marshu*

      Yelling is not normal, and not okay. Disciplinary actions for consistent mistakes, even minor ones, might be. That said, I’d do some looking into whether you might be protected by the ADA, and whether there are accommodations you’d like to request.

      Personally I would be very stressed in a role where I knew my manager would take minor mistakes very seriously, justified or not, and would be looking for a fresh start, maybe in a role that doesn’t require superb attention to detail. But I think that is a personal preference, not a “MUST LEAVE NOW” kind of situation.

  140. Lunavesca*

    This is a really timely post for me; I’m having a bit of a “should I stay or should I go?” crisis at the moment. Hopefully I didn’t miss the boat here.

    I’ve been in the same job for a little over a decade. I was hired right after graduating from college, so it’s the only professional job I have as a reference for expectations. About half the people in the company are in the same position – hired right after graduation, never worked anywhere else. The company itself was formed shortly before I joined and I was their first employee.

    (1) Routine feedback about what you’re doing right or wrong in your role (either from a technical perspective or from a soft skills perspective) seems to just be… not done. We get yearly reviews, but until my last review they all basically said “you’re doing great, no issues, keep it up”. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had a meeting with a manager outside of a review that was about some aspect of my performance.

    Recently, the company owner has noticed this deficit and has started doing more critical reviews. My last review was extremely negative; it praised my technical abilities but stopped just short of saying “you’re a terrible person and you have been for years”. I never assumed that I was perfect just because I was told so, but I was completely blindsided by this. I struggled to find any specific, constructive things that I did wrong in the review – it seemed very general, very “you should know what you did wrong”.

    I have been diagnosed with high functioning autism, so I may need a lot more specific, literal feedback than others, so I can’t tell if this is normal vs if this is a “me” problem. I have asked for more incremental feedback than once a year, but I have to pester to get those meetings set up, and I still do not receive any kind of feedback outside of meetings. I’ve been told I improved on all the issues since then, but again, I don’t understand what I did wrong in the first place, so I don’t understand what I’m doing “right” now.

    There also is not really any formal way for me to give feedback on other people. My coworkers in the same role as me do a lot of complaining behind closed doors about issues with management/other departments; I assume they do the same about us. The information never seems to directly make its way to the person that needs to hear it. I used to try to bring up issues with people directly, but I suspect that’s what all the “personal attacks” comments in my review were about, so I have stopped.

    (2) Project managers seem to not know how to manage projects (or people, see above). They always seem to be in a state of flustered panic. They never seem to have a grasp on what the big-picture view of the project is. Tasks necessary for the project are forgotten about, for every project. Questions necessary to do the project right are never answered. Looking busy for the client and not having to ask too many questions of the client seem to be the number one priorities. It’s not uncommon for me to ask for something only to be told the PM doesn’t have time to do that (“that” being something within the PM’s job role, often something that no one but the PM can do). When I bring up these issues to the owner, I am told that all companies have these problems.

    (3) We don’t get any time during work hours for professional development. (Our work hours are heavily micromanaged so this distinction is important.) According to our handbook, we’re allowed a set number of hours per year for this, but we have to beg to be allowed them and the PMs often say no, because there is no room in the schedule along with client work. I haven’t seen any employees develop new skills in a long time, myself included. The HR person’s opinion is that we should be passionate enough about our jobs to pursue learning new skills in our time outside of work. Employees who have worked for other companies say that this is extremely abnormal, and x hours of professional development per month was often a requirement at prior jobs.

    1. Autistic Farm Girl*

      Heya! Autistic fellow here, i need really detailled feedback, just “you’re doing good/bad” sends my anxiety through the roof. I’ve actually explained that this had to be part of the accommodation for my disability, so maybe you could frame it like that if it helps?

      For the work training outside of work, i know that it’s not normal, if it’s part of your job then the vast majority of it would be completed at work, unless you’re doing a part time degree or something, where you could have homework!

    2. Drax*

      1) Not sure. I have never ever received proper feedback unless there’s an issue or I’ve done something very well, to the point I’ve never had a formal review. So I can’t speak to that.

      2) This is actually fairly normal. It sucks but it is what it is. There’s so many moving pieces in projects that you see that tasks A, B and C aren’t getting done but you aren’t seeing that it’s task M-Z that are also being done behind the scene. It’s often a sign that you are understaffed or have very ineffective people in the role, but based on everything else you posted, I lean a little more toward to much to do and not enough time.

      3) That is unfortunately incredibly normal. My mother is a CPA and has to do her mandatory PD outside of work hours. A lot of jobs want to be that place that lets you do it but the issue is the actual implementation of it they didn’t think through. Often in smaller companies (not fortune-500 size) you will see a lot of promises but not enough coverage for it to feasible. See if they’ll allow it out of work hours.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      1. We like you/nobody likes you has been standard feedback at my work. It used to deeply, deeply hurt my feelings, until I realized it had…nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the person giving the feedback. Also conflating single issues with broad issues, ex: “Everyone thinks you’re rude” versus “One angry customer complained you were rude in a hostile tirade.”

    4. Galahad*

      1) the only thing unusual here is that someone had the guts to recognize that critical feedback was never being given and actually tried to do something about it/ change the culture. Too bad that they did it so poorly (vague) that they have backed off instead of getting more specific. You could specifically ask if the negative review was because you were approaching people directly with concerns about their work, and say that you stopped that, but don’t know who you should talk to when things impact the company.
      2) Normal. “all companies have these problems” Yep. Especially the not asking too many questions of the client. I just had 3 weeks of intense work for a client to sort all the data they gave us, not asking questions becuase it must be in this mountain of information, and to ask makes us look like idiots.. only to come to the other side and realize that what they asked for did not match the type of data they gave, and that now, they actually want a third thing, very different from what was asked for.
      3) Normal- ish. If you are not an exempt employee then often all the PD hours are combined into a couple of days a year for a seminar or conference, or a series of once a week webinars for an hour. They try to time these between projects, as PD is NOT the PM’s job to figure out, that is the manager’s job.

  141. Aptly Named NonProfits*

    My company says they forgot to pay me for February (they forgot one other person, and she got them to pay both of us after a week). I’m assuming missed paychecks are just….not acceptable, but the company’s really taking it in stride. (They also underpaid me for March, but they caught their own mistake there).

    1. AlwaysAnOutlier*

      Not only is it not common and not acceptable, it might be illegal. It might indicate the company is in dire financial straits, in which case I’d bail to a financially solvent company before you give this place any more free labor.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I worked for three different regional nonprofits (same national org, different franchises), and this was really common at them. Missed checks, missing hours, incorrect pay, lost hire paperwork, lost direct deposit information, dead paycards instead of paper checks, etc.

      My husband’s worked for three different universities as a 12 month employee, and every summer, he misses a paycheck because they’ve grouped him in with the 9 month employees. Or they paid him as a student when he’s staff, etc.

      It’s annoying but it’s really, really common.

  142. AlwaysAnOutlier*

    I work for a ginormous multinational, one of the largest companies in the world.
    Our travel meals policy is that we can spend up to $50 a day and not one penny more. They also don’t allow it to be a per diem; rather it’s $10 for breakfast, $15 for lunch, and $25 for dinner – including tips! So you can’t even skip breakfast and lunch in order to have a decent dinner. On my first trip, my manager griped about an $11.50 breakfast even though I didn’t go over $50 for the day. That $11.50 breakfast had the tip included in the check. So since then, I’ve paid the tip out of my own pocket and told servers to put the $10 or whatever on my corporate card and paid for the rest with my own card. So basically, I’m subsidizing my employer.
    I’ve been here 7 years and this amount has never been adjusted, nor is it adjusted based on the place you’re traveling to (you get $50 whether you’re in Podunk or NYC – I once ate breakfast and lunch out of a vending machine in Princeton, NJ). I had a $75 a day per diem in the 1980s, fergoshsakes!
    Others in my office agree that this is ridiculous, but ours is one of the few professional employers in town. They don’t want to leave, so they just suck it up and also spend their own money like I do.
    OK, so my questions are:
    Is it common for other companies to be this stingy?
    If you were me, would you push back and say that under the circumstances, you don’t want to travel? I’d use the calm and matter-of-fact reason that the meal policy means I won’t have enough healthy food to be able to do my job. It’s not that I require copious amounts of food, it’s that I’d rather not be forced to eat candy bars and fast food or pack my own protein bars in order to comply with the meal policy. Fortunately I don’t need to travel often, but this will come up later this year. I believe I can push back and not be forced to travel, but it could hurt my reputation as a great team player.

    1. marshu*

      I’ve got the same reimbursement cap at my current job. I don’t think it’s unusual.

      In your shoes I’d push back on the amounts rather than refuse any travel at all. Maybe show that there are no meals under $10 at the hotel restaurant or at any non-fast food locations within walking distance. But saying that $75/day is the same as requiring you to only eat candy bars will look pretty out of touch.

    2. Galahad*

      That’s pretty common. The limits are too. Some companies will name a few big cities with higher caps (NY, Chicago, Boston, SFO).. IF you have to stay downtown, so you can negotiate that for the whole company.

      Do you have per diems or reimbursable caps? I did not have a per diems. Instead, I had to give receipts that had caps, AND lunch was never covered, only breakfast / dinner if you flew somewhere… My Fortune 50 said that most people needed to buy their own lunches, anyway.

      They would not reimburse lunch (ever), chocolate bars, incidental like tips (bag handling, mandatory valet parking tips) or coffee breaks.

      If you have per diem, the idea is that sometimes you pay $8 breakfast, and sometimes it is $12 breakfast (or between lunch and dinner) and that it works out. With a per diem, you can sometimes figure out how to eat what the hotel provides free for part of your needs, or go to nearby fast chain or grocery grab and go, and sometimes you can’t. I used to look for 7-11 and small groceries when I had a small rental, and grab some food for breakfast / snacks.

      So- ask for the per diem rules to be applied with receipts as backup, but to get the full per diem / per meal rates regardless of the receipts, and better yet to not need to give receipts (get $10 for breakfast even if you have submitted a $6 receipt). When you go to a very expensive city, and will be stuck downtown, ask for an extra $20 for the increased food costs.

      Do not refuse travel. My travel used to cost me a lot, but not being a “team player” would have cost me my job. Instead I should have just asked for a raise instead of sucking it up.

    3. Beth*

      Good luck with pushing back on amounts. It stinks that your company is so stingy! Huge rich companies are often stupidly stingy.

      The only time I ever had a per diem, it was a community college, part of the state educational system and subject to the state policy standards: the per diem was comfortably ample, and it definitely scaled up according to how expensive your destination was. I recall that there were some five cost level brackets, with East Podunk as E level and NYC as A. They also didn’t want receipts — the money was handed out and that was what you got, boom. What they DID want was the request forms correctly filled out and turned in in advance to the right person.

      That said — that was the state government, not a for-profit corporation. In the for-profit sector, meals eaten while traveling can only be expensed for tax purposes at 50% of their cost — the idea being that you would have to eat a meal anyway, but the travel makes it more expensive. (Of course, this usually isn’t attended to at the expense level — my current employer covers the entire cost of meals, and only wants to hear that I got their money’s worth out of whatever conference it was.) But could it help the frustration and anger if you think in terms of the 50% — that is, that the company is covering, at least, the difference between what you would spend on food at home, and what you’re spending while traveling?

  143. WonderingAndNotSure*

    Oh my goodness I’ve needed this!

    Is it normal to:
    – have a task but when management is considering changes, have no input on how the task is performed or have the changes made to the task’s performance without talking to the task doer?
    – have a job description state the employee is responsible for the workflow of X but in reality only do a small, specific part of X?
    – have to file, copy, do admin work for a boss when you are not a personal assistant, secretary, admin, etc.?
    – be responsible for the management of lower level employees, but only the administrative tasks even though the job description didnt state this distinction
    – all lower level employees report to me and I assign them work, but only work that has been created and approved by my boss. I’ve been chastised for giving work that was unapproved when the workers didnt have anything to do. I assumed since it was basic work (filing and boxing and the like) it would keep them busy.
    – make appointments for them and inform them of changes to their schedule even if I didnt know about it either. For example, someone didnt show for a meeting we were in together and Boss told me I should have informed them the person didnt arrive?

    I am not in an entry level position, it required 3-4 years of experience and experience in management of employees. I am a little surprised at how little autonomy I have but am wondering if my previous positions just happened to give me more than most workplaces and now my perception is skewed a bit?

    –

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Common, unfortunately yes. Normal, no.
      It sounds like your boss wants a manager without paying for a manager? Or maybe they want an Admin but expect manager (but only certain management) responsibilities. Either way it puts you betwixt and between. It sounds like they’re really confused about what exactly the duties of your role ARE.

      1. WonderingAndNotSure*

        Thanks for this. It coming across to you as them being confused about the role really helps me not feel so lost! I thought I had misunderstood somehow or read into the job too much, but its reassuring to hear it’s most likely confusion or wanting something else on their end.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I think you can take this list (or have it in your head) and go to your boss to get clarification about your actual job duties — what you thought they were — and what is. And I think that some of these points are maybe a little more important than other ones, so you might pick say the 2-3 most important ones to tackle first.

          For instance, the part about you managing people
          “I’ve been chastised for giving work that was unapproved when the workers didnt have anything to do. I assumed since it was basic work (filing and boxing and the like) it would keep them busy.”
          That one seems pretty darn important if you were actually hired to manage the lower-level staff! So I would be questioning why you don’t have the authority to give them those basic administrative tasks to do?

          This one: “…appointments for them and inform them of changes to their schedule” I’m not clear if the “them” was the lower-level staff or your boss? If it was staff, then maybe it was your job to inform them, but other managers? No, that the duty of the Admin typically (or you know, they manage their own time and schedule like most managers do!).

          So, some of your points really make it sound like your boss wants an executive admin? I’m not sure if that’s the job you applied and were hired for-sounds like no? But if they do expect an Admin and it’s not what you wanted, yeah, that sucks. I’m not saying it was a total bait and switch, it could be they’re just confused themselves about what it was they really needed. Or they have NO CLUE between an administrative assistant (who helps the managers personally with travel, schedules, correspondence, etc.) and an office administrator (who manages the office operational functions, equipment, logistics and low-level staff or interns). I admit, in smaller companies the two positions may have a bit of overlap depending.

          1. WonderingAndNotSure*

            I’m fairly certain my manager has never managed anyone before so I think she’s honestly confused about what my role is in relation to her. I’ve tried to have a What Exactly Is My Job Here discussion and it didn’t go well (she asked “You don’t know what your job is?” and I came away from the clarification with a more definite answer that she didn’t want me doing what the job description indicated). I thought maybe I had misread the situation(s) so I posted here. It does seem like it may not be a good fit for me, which is good to know!

  144. MissDisplaced*

    I know it’s late to post, but I’ve been thinking about this a lot.
    At what point should you give up and just leave a job where you like the work, but not the culture?
    >The work/duties are good. Pay is good.
    >Immediate team is good.
    >Other departments not good! But need/require other departments to accomplish my work.
    >Culture of company troubling. Lot’s of under-performers kept. Lots of bloat. Lot of impediments, naysayers and culture of no’s.
    >Culture is very risk-adverse.
    >Projects/work move at a glacial pace. Things that were fast/quick/easy to do at other companies.
    >Attitude when pressed for times/turnarounds is bad. Other departments act like you’re too demanding and/or unreasonable if you ask work to be done by x-time. How dare you! But I know they are reasonable timeframes at most companies, even factoring in other work.
    >A lot of technical things don’t work as they should. No one knows (or seems to care) why.
    >Executive management ignores these issues. Pretend things are fine, but wonder why sales are declining.
    >Potential to be great is there, but no personal power to do anything about it currently. Have to settle for mediocre because that’s the best I get, or I get nothing at all.

    I am often still shocked and surprised at how painfully difficult it can be to get projects completed at my company. So much time is wasted on having to prove yourself and your idea to other departments, and much more time invested doing that than doing the actual work. I’m used to having much more personal agency and/or working with a smaller cross-functional teams to get things done. I come from the roll-up-your-sleeves mentality and believe in trying and doing, not talking about doing, so it’s frustrating. I’ve come to believe that even though I do like my work, I just will never fit with this particular company culture. Unfortunately, it’s taken some time for this to come to light, and it wasn’t evident upon taking this job.

    1. marshu*

      I think all of those things are common but not universal, so if you strongly dislike like it you should definitely look elsewhere. And definitely worth spending some time thinking about what to look for in the interview process that might point towards this kind of company culture.

    2. Onyx*

      Sounds like my company. :/ I stay because I like my boss and my team.
      No advice, just commiseration.

  145. StarvingTrainer*

    I work for a large, regional health system in an IT support role. This entails regular all day travel around the region which would get reimbursements for mileage but absolutely no meals. Recently it has expanded beyond day trips to in include multiple day trips. We were initially reimbursed generously for meals, but a new policy has changed this to $35 a day for dinner, and no reimbursement at all for lunch and breakfast.

    Is it normal to require your staff to work out of the state and stay in a hotel for 5 nights a week for multiple weeks in a row, while also refusing to reimburse for lunch?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      For DAY trips, I can maybe see why lunch would not be included. The thought being, this is same as being in office, where lunch is not provided daily. My hubs is a field tech, and driving about all day. Lunch is not included.

      $35 day/per diem is a bit cheap, but within range. Ours is $40.
      Typically on overnight stays, any/all meals are included in the $40 as long as it fits within the daily per diem allotment, so it’s however you want to break that up. They don’t care what it is, as long as it’s the same day.

      Are you basically saying they only pay for ONE meal per day? And that 1 meal is worth $35? (1 receipt)
      I mean, how would they know if you ate lunch and not dinner? Are they checking the receipt time? What about people eating at off-times? Time zone changes? What if you prefer to eat a bigger meal at 2pm and skip dinner or have a lite snack at 7 pm and go to bed early? What if you’re on a plane during dinner and want to eat before? So many questions!
      As for breakfast, most hotels do include that now, so I haven’t found that part too difficult.

      Have they clearly stated the $35 is for “dinner” only? Because stating it must be “dinner” is weird and seems hard to enforce for all the reasons above. I can see many issues telling people when they can or can’t eat and it will become problematic I guarantee!

      1. StarvingTrainer*

        They have no meal reimbursement at all for day trips, which has been the policy for a long time. This makes sense to me in most cases.

        It is not per diem, it is a reimbursement, meaning they pay out up to $35, depending on itemized receipts submitted. It is not that they will only do one meal a day, they will literally only reimburse dinner, not lunch. It is explicitly stated.

        A per diem at $35 would be a bit cheap, but is workable… The reimbursement policy requires receipts, which means I can’t have a $10 lunch and $25 dinner.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          All I mean by per diem is daily limit. I do use my work credit card to pay while I travel, but I still must turn in all meal receipts on my expense report. If you went over the $40/daily limit policy on employee meals, they’d want to know WHY and may not reimburse all of it back to the credit card, so you’d be on the hook for the difference. Sometimes that happens in expensive cities! Or, if you have drinks.

          I’ve seriously never heard of any place that won’t let you spread out/break up your daily limit.

          I wonder what the thinking is on that policy? And literally how do they know it’s dinner? Do they count the number of receipts and only pay one, or actually look at the times on the receipts to determine if it was lunch or dinner time? This seems so ODD to me! And problematic for odd time-of-day eaters who may want their bigger meal early.

    2. Galahad*

      Ugh. Yes. I worked for Fortune 50 retail company. No lunch reimbursement. Dinner only on the night that you have a hotel. Breakfast only if you can show that the hotel (Usually a holiday inn express, with breakfast) did not provide breakfast at the hours that you needed in order to get to your job…

      No per diems, receipts only, with a cap by meal and type of travel (air travel, international, multi day, etc).

      The reason was that most travelers for the company were daytime travel only, in a car, to merchandise departments around the state. Paying for their lunches (that they could pack in the car) was expensive, so the policy applied to everyone.

      It was one of the things I truly hated. It was costing me so much! One reason I eventually left, too.

      It is impossible to pack more than one meal a day, I find, when you have to fly somewhere… example: Getting up at 4:30am, flying from SFO to Denver, working a full day onsite with car rental, flying home that night to arrive at home around 10pm or later…. and zero reimbursement other than the car rental and flight. Eventually I got a bad attitude and I started to come in late the next day in protest (SFO has a crazy workaholic culture). A few colleagues would drive to a hotel aiport the night before, just to get dinner (and breakfast) paid, and a reasonable time to start the next morning. I couldn’t because I had two young kids at home that REALLY wanted to know mom was there while they slept.

      Anyway. Normal if your company has a lot of other employees in daytime travel. Very suck-y , though. Talk to your manager about loopholes. e.g. one manager would let people add 5 miles onto their driving, to help offset normal incidental costs like tipping.

  146. Pennycrest*

    Context: I am a female working in Higher Education Development (Public Land Grant Institution). I have steadily expanded my positions reach and $ in the door and have been told that I am a good team player. Yesterday in a meeting about compensation discrepancies (both in terms of job description and gender pay gap – Thank you AMA for the recent post on this). My boss and I had a productive conversation, but it had an odd outcome.

    Normalcy Q #1: My boss indicated that everyone agrees that I’m underpaid and we need to fix it. But, he said that no pay increases could be given because the Dean doesn’t want to adjust the budget mid cycle or impact the current college run rate. I know for a fact that out of cycle pay increases have been done, and so I focused the conversation on what we needed to do to build a good case for the Dean. That was all receptive. My question is: Is this normal or am I getting the wool pulled over my eyes? It seems odd that correcting a pay discrepancy that my boss and HR has agreed with and that I have iron clad information on wouldn’t be this hard!

    Normalcy Q#2: At the end of the meeting, I brought up wanting to feel more integrated into a few key aspects of the office (I’m on the road the most of any of my team and get “accidently’ forgotten in information/key events with prospects and strategy). My boss said that he felt that I had been managed into a place of being an elective outlier because of culture/toxic past team members/leads that I used to work with/under. While I agree with the assessment, and do feel pigeon holed a bit, is it normal for a boss to communicate this? The Toxic Team Member is now gone. My boss didn’t have a solution, but I asked how we could work on it together. He didn’t have an answer. Is this normal? I have been part of very collaborative teams, led collaborative healthy teams and this is the first time I have felt so adrift from the rest of the office team. Am I crazy? How do I fix this?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      #1: I don’t know how higher-ed works in regard to salary bands and raises, but it seems fairly normal this would be a yearly thing in that field. But if you’ve been there a while, why did the cycle pass you without it being discussed? If you weren’t passed by, then I think all you can do is focus on the next one.

      #2: Not normal, well maybe it is if there was a toxic culture previously, but your boss seems oddly passive about how to fix a past wrong they’ve gone out of their way to specifically acknowledge. I mean, yeah, it’s normal that managers don’t always have the answers, or need more time to think about things, but this isn’t the best sign of a good manager to leave the issue hanging like that without some concrete steps such as even coming back in a week with 3-4 ideas. This may be a case where you have to do more managing up and come up with the plan yourself. But how do you think/feel about the boss otherwise? Are they new? Does your manager really have any authority to make changes, or is that all the dean? Basically, is your manager just an empty suit?

    2. Galahad*

      1) Mid cycle can be a thing. Your boss needs to use up their political clout to advocate for you, on this issue, and they only get so many times a year to do that on various issues, before they start to be ignored and looked over / lose effectiveness. Either he is saving his voice for other issues that he worries about, or has already lost his clout. Is there anything you want that could be a stopgap for this year? Maybe sent on a conference to that warm destination with a pre-weekend extension? Your own office? Think of what is in the budget that is not specifically allocated yet, that you can claim the lion’s share of. You are out of the office, maybe a better car reimbursement / company car, other, that other people can’t ask for?

      For comparison, my higher level ed employer is all on unionized contract rates, even tenured, so the only raises are for moving people up a level due to specific experience or degrees obtained, or for extra expenses/reimbursements.

      2) It is normal to get adrift when you work away from the office. 2 year is the max before you need to come back in some substantial way or you get moved out by choice or by restructruring, I find. I would get assigned to be a leader, or key member of a team project that requires a lot of face time, and show the others how fabulous you are, and be in the office a lot more for that project. You need to (re) build relationships here and being out of the office means that your ties fade.

  147. Colleen*

    How normal is it for there to be absolutely no negotiation of raises annually? We are give our performance evaluations, then, a month or so later, we are given a letter with our raise. No discussions in between.

    As a secondary question, do other people deal with this: The kicker here is that the raises are bucketed and if someone gets a higher raise, then everyone else gets a lower one. For example, let’s say the company has decided that everyone will get a 2% raise this year. If someone has been amazing and the manager wants to give her a 3% raise, well then, everyone else in a (say, 4 person team), will then get a 1.66667% raise instead.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Pretty normal actually. My company also does it this way, raises are not tied to performance review. However, your bonus is! Well, not just to you, but your business unit and team.

    2. Galahad*

      That’s normal. You need to lob the thought balloon that you want a raise, deserve it, about 2 months before the review.

      As for the bucketing list – also pretty normal. I even ended up as the boss, ensuring I was firing the people I needed to, in lots of time, in order to give better raises to the rest of my team… and letting my boss know that is why I was actively tackling a hard issue that no other manager had tried to resolve previously.

      How to do it? Get the bucket to apply to a much wider group. e.g., you get a 4% raise means that everyone else only gets a 2.95% raise… because there are so many more people in the bucket. OR, you get a promotion, or normal “ask for a raise” behaviour in advance, and your boss gets you a mid year bump that does not affect the others, etc.

    4. Beth*

      I think that bucketing business is horrible. I have never had it happen myself, even when I worked for a small company with a monstrously screwed-up bonus system.

      The business with the raises does seem normal to me: I’ve always had the information given me from On High, with no discussion or negotiation. The only time I ever negotiated a raise was when I asked for one out of cycle.

  148. StayinAlive*

    Is it normal for:
    -your medical benefits to be terminated, given no advance notice, told the day after, and be given a new plan with a brand new provider and can not answer when the new coverage will start
    -be told you will have a bonus when you were hired, then be informed the policy changed and you are not eligible
    -the company to cut 4 PTO days randomly

    1. marshu*

      No, that’s not normal. All of those situations can happen, but usually with at least several months advance notice.

  149. Erin*

    Where do I start. The department I work in is currently going through a restructure. This restructure happened before anything was properly put in place, so we don’t have adequate resources to do the work we’re being asked to do. In my particular situation, I was told at year end that, after two years, I’m not qualified to be promoted to the next position; however, I am being asked to do the work of the promoted position. I was told “that’s how it works around here”. I am currently training a new hire, who is above me and making more than me, to do the same work I am doing sans promotion. I brought forth to the employer my desire to be given the title that goes along with the work I am doing, but was told I had to wait. There is no transparency as to what my job requirements are, and no salary transparency. I make 1000s more than a senior counterpart, but less than a brand new hire with less experience. Also, staff are expected to work overtime daily, which is unpaid up to a full additional day of work, each week. We often work through lunch, stay hours later (I have stayed until 8-9PM on multiple occasions). I want to know if these are reasonable requests, or if after two years and successful performance reviews, I should be looking elsewhere.

  150. Mousy*

    My company recently announced an optional potluck lunch. The potluck is in celebration of a coworkers childs first birthday. The coworker is a family member of our director.
    Several of us thought this seemed like throwing a childs first birthday party seemed like an inappropriate use of company time and declined to particiate. I can’t really affird to bring a dish in, especially when its for a 1 year old child whom I dont know and who will not even be present.
    My supervisor (also a family member) went as far as to tell me and a few others that chose not to participate that she was disappointed in us and in the fact that we vouced a concern over this being a weird/work inappropriate reason for a party.

    Am I being to sensitive here? The office is p.o retty split between people who find this strange and people who think its not an issue.

    1. Beth*

      Setting aside the question of whether there’s any point to taking time out of a work day so a group of adults can celebrate, at their own expense, the first birthday of their co-worker’s child (not in attendance) — you were told the event was optional, and then hassled for opting out. That part’s bad. I’m not sure if it’s normal, but I would be leery of what other boundaries your director and his family members/employees are likely to be casual about.

      However, if the lunch was basically an opportunity to eat together and socialize, and the kid was just an excuse, I can see that it might have been a better move to attend even though you were eyerolling the supposed reason. But if cost of bringing a dish to share is prohibitive, that by itself should be something your supervisor should be able to deal with as a genuine concern.

  151. Singaporegirl*

    I work for a very big, US headquartered fortune 500 company office located in Singapore. Im supposed to be an analyst and i have 2 years of experience in another company somewhat related industry.
    Why i hate my job and resigned after 9 mths:
    1. Im doing very repetitive and admin work. Or have nothing to do
    2. My boss is on maternity leave for 11 months. Her boss never talks to me or know what im doing because they dont care.
    3. People only reply to senior ranks, every email I sent out gets ignored
    4. The industry norm is to have networking events from our vendors or partners. I dont even know there’s networking events because im not invited and people wont even talk to me
    5. No ownership or approval can be decided by me, even when I am the subject matter expert for invoicing and documentation.
    6. Have no friends. my colleagues are cold and competitive, dont greet me, we never even eat lunch before.
    7. I am Not cced in emails and left out of the loop even for things relevant to my job.
    8. I am taken for granted and not appreciated when i go the extra mile. Even if i do everything smoothly its expected
    9. I Work for myself, people dont want to understand what I do because its so boring, i got no feedback
    10. Nobody wants to teach me how to do my work because they themselves are not sure and dont want to be held responsible
    11. Im not invited to meetings (forgotten)
    12. Company process is horrendous
    13. I asked for more work and am just thrown ad hoc tasks that is not adding value. For example, mailing letters.
    14. The only progression is to be a consultant and you need to be good at soft skills, my current technical and analytical skills are useless in demonstrating my potential for promotion because the skills needed for consulting cant be seen in me when i do my job

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