open thread – March 29-30, 2019

by Alison Green on March 29, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. starsaphire*

    Contractor question:

    A friend of mine was told recently that California has changed its contracting laws, and that a contract employee being laid off cannot be rehired into the same position after their 30- (or 90- or whatever) day hiatus.

    I’m finding a lot of info online about the law changes, but nowhere have I seen the no-rehire part stated.

    Does anyone have verifiable info or an actual resource on this? Again, I have Googled the new laws exhaustively and read tons of articles about the ruling, etc., but haven’t yet found mention of a no-rehire clause, and that’s what I’m specifically interested in.

    Thanks all!

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      I’m not in California and not familiar with hiring laws…. I wonder if it is specific to an industry, like maybe only in public government or something?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is often found in CBA…is your friend union? Often people get things blurred about laws vs their companies SOP or regulations.

      1. starsaphire*

        Nope, not government or union. I’m not sure if it’s just a policy of her specific (now former) employer, and it could possibly be — but she was told it was specifically because of the law change, not a change in company policy.

        I’m a rehired contractor myself, and I’m wondering if this is going to affect me when my number comes up again.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          When there’s a change like that, most states make it wildly known on their website. If it’s not on the California employment site, I would assume she’s gotten something wrong somewhere along the line. Laws don’t usually just get added into the works and you have to dig for them!

    3. Just a gal*

      I’ve temped many times and had many great experiences – only 1 negative. One job They made it clear during the interview that it was only 6 mos, I said great, I wanted to focus on my mba full time after that. I thought it was a perfect match. But nope – they were super offended that I didn’t want to convert to permanent despite both sides being clear of our needs in the beginnning (and I reminded them of my future plans when asked). They acted personally hurt and rejected which I thought was confusing since I told them my plans before I was hired.

      2. Chaordic One*

        This is kind of typical. Often an employer doesn’t really know what they want at the time of hiring. They just know they need someone to do something. After they hire someone and see what that person is capable of doing, and how it affects their bottom line, then things change. This wasn’t a terrible problem to have, (especially compared to some of the other ones that have turned up on this website) but it sounds like you stood your ground. The employers’ acting hurt and rejected was a bit unprofessional, but easily dismissed.

      3. Malthusian Optimist*

        Just a Gal: you might find the movie “Haiku Tunnel” amusing, that’s a major plot point for the main character.

    4. fposte*

      PCBH might know, but the big legal change was the CA Supreme Court ruling about 1099 contractors–when you say “contract employees” I’m wondering if you mean W2 contractors, which are a different thing (the whole point of being a 1099 contractor is that you’re *not* an employee).

      If it’s the court ruling, I don’t think the ruling laid out explicitly the policy that you’re describing, but I suspect that employers who’d been inappropriately treating people as 1099 contractors might be tightening up that kind of catch-and-release approach to employment–that you can’t avoid making somebody an employee just by withholding work from them for 30 days.

      1. designbot*

        That’s exactly what I was wondering—it may not be a new law, but rather a new interpretation/ruling on an old law about what makes someone a contractor vs. an employee.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Agreed. I don’t believe the law actually stipulates, but their HR and/or legal department has probably advised that they institute an internal policy against that kind of boomerang thing, in order to avoid the appearance of deliberate misclassification of non-employees. What they would otherwise do may be strictly legal, but it’s never fun to have to defend your employment practices on a technicality in front of a judge, so to avoid having to do so many companies will voluntarily do stuff like this to distance themselves from the issue.

      2. John Thurman*

        This is it. It’s supposed to force companies to hire w2 employees rather than having a bunch of misclassified 1099 contractors. But then the company turns it around like ‘Sorry the government says we can’t extend your contract”

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not in California anymore, but I had a independent (meaning I billed them) contract job (not through a temp agency, which is different as the temp agencies are considered the employer) that was like this in my state. You could work 90 days per contract, but then had to be separated for 30 days before coming back for a second 90 day contract. It was weird. I did two contracts at that company, but it sucked being off for a month.

      It made for unstable work because you were essentially “freelance” but without the ability to have other clients during your contract periods. I guess if the contract work is paid highly enough you might not care about the forced hiatus, but it didn’t work out for me and I moved on to a full time job into the second contract, and they let me out of it. I think this setup benefits companies more than the contract employees, personally.

    6. Savannah*

      How can I get over feeling resentful or irritated when a coworker gets assigned a cool project?

      I have a coworker who is three months into the job and hasn’t done much aside from sit on his phone for the duration. Meanwhile, I’ve worked hard and received challenging, fun projects as a reward. Some new projects came down the pike and my manager assigned them to the new coworker in an effort to get him to do SOMETHING. However, these are exciting projects that require skill and experience.

      How can I get over my resentment toward this coworker? How can I move on from my disappointment in my manager’s decision to give prime projects to the newest/least competent among us?

      1. JokersandRogues*

        Re-frame maybe?
        If he’s no good at them, then, if you’re good humored and supportive, you may get the projects when he fails.
        If he is good at them, then great person for back-up when you go on vacation!

      2. CM*

        First, you don’t have a monopoly on cool projects — you said you have gotten challenging, fun projects but now your coworker has some too. So remind yourself that this is bound to happen, regardless of how well you perform.

        Second, talk to your manager! Don’t make it about the coworker, but say, “I noticed that Coworker is working on some projects that sound really interesting. If there are other opportunities to [whatever specifically you find interesting about them — work with a certain group, use a certain skill, produce a certain thing], I’d be very interested in working on projects like that too.”

      3. Jerm*

        Offer to help and guide, then step back. You’re running your own race and focus on that, not your coworker or the boss’s assignments. If, after awhile, you feel you are being overlooked, either ask for more opportunities or look for a new job. You don’t have to stay at a place where you don’t enjoy working.

      4. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I agreed w/ CM for the most part. HOWEVER, I empathize. It really burns when someone who sits on their butt gets a plum project just to get them into production at all, when you’ve paid your dues and shown your worth.

        Maybe it would help to remind yourself that the resentment hurts only you.

    7. Dragoning*

      I have a 30-day hiatus coming up in June and my contracting firm is in California and I work in Illinois…I sure hope this isn’t the case for me!

    8. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I don’t know that this is a new law (if you’re searching only new laws). Almost 20 years ago, after a class action lawsuit against Microsoft (“permatemp” lawsuit) and the dot-com burst there were many laws enacted on both federal and state levels that protected tech workers and probably have now been applied to non-tech jobs as well. I remember working a graphic design job as an independent contractor (I billed them directly for my time, not through an agency, and I received a 1099) and after a certain period they either had to hire me or end the contract — that was I want to say 2004-ish.

      1. Natalie*

        There have been a handful of court cases and IRS rulings related to the issue, but I’m not aware of any federal laws enacted about permatemps.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, and the Microsoft result was a settlement, not a ruling. Interestingly, it seems to have been contingent on the inequity of stock purchases, not, like, health care benefits.

          1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

            It was a long-running mess. I think Microsoft continued, after the settlement, to treat contractors like employees, except they had them sign an agreement that they were an IC and to keep working as they had been under a new temp “agency” that Microsoft created. Workers sued again for full employee benefits, and there were two Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rulings in their favor in 1996 and 1999 — an “agreement” doesn’t trump the law.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I thought the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) was amended due to some of the shenanigans.

          1. fposte*

            I don’t think so. Wikipedia actually has a good list of amendments to the FLSA in their article on the act; I’ll post a link in followup.

              1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

                It’s not right on the heels of the Microsoft case or dot-com bust but government works slowly. I think the amendment in 2004 is what I’m thinking of “FLSA now requires that an exemption must be predicated upon actual job function and not job title. Employees with job titles that previously allowed exemption but whose job descriptions did not include managerial functions were now reclassified from exempt to non-exempt.” A lot of low level workers during the dot-com boom and bust, like web designers and graphic designers like me, had previously been classified as exempt and then expected to work 60+ hr/wk.

    9. aett*

      If you haven’t yet, contact the Contractors State Licensing Board (cslb.ca.gov). They may at least be able to point you in the right direction.

      1. CAA*

        CSLB is for licensed contractors who are in the construction trades. OP is talking about contract employees, so CSLB is probably not applicable.

  2. Boats Against the Current*

    Would anyone be willing to share their experiences with/advice about temping?

    Some background: I finished my Bachelor’s degree in history nearly two years ago, then taught English in Europe for 10 months on an international fellowship. I’ve been working in retail since I’ve been back in the U.S. because I feel really uncertain about what to pursue in terms of a career path (I focused a lot on doing academic research in my field of study during college, and not very much on what I wanted to do after I graduated). I feel temping would allow me to explore different types of jobs and office cultures without making a long-term commitment. I also think that doing well at temp assignments could demonstrate my ability to perform in a professional environment, which would be useful to have on my resume when looking for a full-time job versus just the fellowship and retail experience. I’m interested in hearing from others who may have approached temping in the same way I am, but any experiences/advice offered would be greatly appreciated.

    1. starsaphire*

      I absolutely recommend temping as a good way to get immersed in workplace norms and experience different work environments!

      It has been a few years (okay, decades) since I did so, but temp work was a great experience for me — and I got more than one permanent job out of a temp assignment, too.

      You’ll also get to have the restful experience of being largely immune to office drama and politics when you’re on shorter assignments. :)

      Definitely give it a try!

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        Thanks for the encouragement! My retail job can often be full of drama, so the idea of being more removed from that just increases the appeal of temping :)

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I, too, got two permanent positions out of the two temp jobs I had straight out of college. The one job ended maybe two months after I was hired on (into another role that I had no business being in), but the other place, I ended up leaving almost two years after being hired on permanently. Temping was good in the sense that it paid the bills, but for me, it didn’t really give me any clarity about what I wanted to do with my life. Hell, I still don’t know exactly what I want to do, but I write full-time now, and that’s cool.

        The downside to temping is the lack of benefits. It was very hard not be able to take a sick day or go on vacation because you only get paid for hours you work. That’s fine if you have savings or a spouse who can float you if you miss a check, but I didn’t, so I was always working – burnout happened very quickly at my second temp job (in law). Then I got sick and had no insurance. Thankfully, the ACA allowed me to go back on my mom’s insurance until I was 26, otherwise, I wouldn’t have been able to get treatment.

        If you’re young and relatively healthy, though, temping for a while until you figure yourself out should be okay. Good luck.

        1. Boats Against the Current*

          Thanks for sharing some of the downsides of temping. I think it’s important for me to remember that it’s not necessarily the perfect solution for figuring out what I want to do, and the lack of benefits is also something to consider.

        2. Liz*

          I also got two permanent jobs out of temping, and some other experience from other temp positions. Granted this was 25+ years ago, when I was younger, and much healthier, so basic insurance was affordable, as was COBRA, and I was also lucky enough to get COBRA paid for a year when downsized from one job. I liked it; although I did miss paid time off and so on. But I think it was good for me, at the time, as I too didn’t quite know what I wanted to be when I grew up, and also going back to school, and tempting was flexible enough for my needs.

      3. cactus lady*

        I second this! I temped as a new grad and it really helped to make all my newbie office mistakes in an environment where I didn’t have a lot at stake. It’s a really good way to get into working in an office!

        1. Boats Against the Current*

          I worry a bit about the “newbie” mistakes I’ll make once I start working in an office environment. I think making those as a temp rather than as a permanent employee would be a lot less stressful!

      4. CatMintCat*

        It’s a good few years/decades since I did any temping, but I loved it. I did it for a couple of months when I was planning a long distance move and needed work but didn’t want to take on anything permanent for such a short time. I loved seeing how different places operated and meeting different people.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Absolutely! I am a big fan of temping for people who are in the exact situation you are on– not sure field, not sure industry, etc. I think it is a great way to get a lot of exposure to a lot of different kinds of work. If you enjoy research you may check out prospect research for non-profits and universities. I did that at the university where I was getting my master’s, and it was really interesting. You put together data/info sheets on potential donors. If you have good research skills and can put together a document, you might like it! Good luck!

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        I haven’t heard of prospect research before, and it sounds really interesting! Higher education and non-profits also jump out as fields I’d like to explore career-wise. Thanks so much for the advice!

    3. CatCat*

      Yep, A+, highly recommend. I did this after college and also after a graduate fellowship (I decided not to pursue a career in the fellowship area and was sort of at loose ends so temping got me income, experience, and time to sort things out).

    4. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      Totally recommend temping!!! I went to school for psychology. Intended to go to grad school and then work in something social services related. Was doing some temp work to keep myself afloat while I was preparing to apply to grad school. Temped at a bank (it was a longish term gig – like 6 weeks or so) and it all of a sudden clicked for me that “these are my people”.

      5 years later – I didn’t go to grad school and now work in finance. Which I NEVER ever considered until that temp gig.

      So I definitely recommend temping!

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        This is another reason I’m interested in temping—I focused mostly on careers directly related to history in college, and I’m wondering if there are other fields out there that would be a good fit for me that I don’t even know about yet! Thanks for sharing your experience!

        1. Vincaminor*

          I know a lot of my cohort in history (2003 grad) went on to law or finance — if you did research you know we’re super-good at the important details!

    5. CTT*

      I tenped for 6 months after I graduated. I think it is a good way to get office experience and show that you’re familiar with professional environments, but I will caveat that it’s not necessarily an everyday job. I think I was working maybe 60% of the time (with one 2-month long temp job, and others either a day to a week). This was the recession, so that may be different now, but if you are someone who really likes structure, it can be hard to adjust to the “today I am working somewhere that’s a 40 minute drive away, yesterday was a mile away, and then I have nothing for a week” schedule.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        For me that type of schedule will probably take some getting used to, but I think I can handle it. I’m glad to know now rather than later!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          There are also longer term temp jobs – I had one for a little over a year at a law firm. You don’t necessarily have to take shorter contracts.

    6. knork*

      Some agencies are better than others, but temping can be a good way to build skills and relationships. You’ll be able to learn about particular jobs and organizations by observation, but don’t have high expectations of only doing interesting work–it can be a lot of data entry. When you’re first getting started with a temp agency, it’s unwise to turn assignments down just because you won’t find the work interesting.

      I haven’t temped in years, but I can still cite how it’s benefited me professionally. (I can share with prospective employers just how quickly I pick up new software programs, and when an interview panel was delicately alluding to parts of the job being sort of tedious, I could cheerfully tell them “I was a temp for a long time, I have a very high tolerance for repetitive work!”)

      1. anonagain*

        Do you have any advice about finding a good agency? Or avoiding a terrible one, at least?

        Boats Against the Current, I hope it’s okay to ask this in your thread! Thank you for asking your question; the responses have been helpful for me too.

        1. Boats Against the Current*

          It’s no problem at all! If the advice in this thread is useful to others as well, that would be great!

        2. knork*

          I’ve mostly gone by word of mouth. You can look online, with the caveat that people can be really salty when a temp job turns sour or a temp-to-hire falls through, so take those complaints with a grain of salt.

          I don’t know what the protocol is for signing up with more than one agency at a time–maybe someone else knows if that’s generally kosher or not.

          2. just a random teacher*

            I also generally signed up with multiple agencies when I temped, although that was a while ago so I have no idea what the current standards are.

      2. Boats Against the Current*

        That’s good to know. I did an internship in college that required a lot of data entry. It was tedious at times, but also definitely doable, so I should be okay with more of it.

    7. KEG*

      My only caution would be not to temp for too long. Most people temp with the hope of getting hired somewhere full time and can be seen as a red flag on your resume if you temped for an extended period of time. You can explain in a cover letter or interview that you were doing it for the reason you mention in your question of course.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        That’s a good point. I’m trying not to get stuck in a rut of working in retail for too long so I’m hoping to temp, but at the same time I don’t want to temp forever either. It’s a nice reminder that full-time work is the ultimate goal.

        1. Boats Against the Current*

          But with that in mind, what do you think would be an acceptable amount of time to temp?

    8. The Tin Man*

      I got a temp-to-hire job through a temp agency when I was changing careers. After six months I was hired on full-time and it’s now been two years as full-time! I never would have found this job without temping and I am doing well and bringing my skill set to a company/industry where it is less common. I am highly biased by this experience but I recommend it.

      The main caveat is to work with a good company. I talked to one staffing group that was pretty crappy but then signed on with one that was good for my now-fiancee and ended up being good for me (Robert Half).

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        I’m glad to hear that temping worked out so well for you!

        Echoing the comment of anonagain above, do you have any specific tips related to choosing a good temp agency?

        1. ZuZu*

          Former temp recruiter here! Pick a few agencies in your area and go in and meet with the recruiters. You’ll definitely get a feel for who you like and who you don’t. Definitely ask people you know for suggestions and look at online reviews (keeping in mind that reviews for temp agencies are notoriously awful). Work with a couple of agencies at a time – they will have different roles and will help keep your options open. I’d recommend at least one big agency and maybe a smaller local boutique one. When you meet with the recruiters, be professional, but be honest about what works for you. Sometimes it’s helpful to do a couple of really short/easy/probably bad paying assignments (think one day reception gigs) because once you have some good reviews, the agencies can “sell” you to their other clients who maybe have some better roles. Good luck!!

      2. The Tin Man*

        What worked for me was going with one that my fiancee had a good experience with. So, I’d recommend asking people you know if they’ve worked with any.

        And Googling can help some, as long as you keep in mind that upset people are more likely to post reviews than happy people.

    9. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      I’ve also gotten two full time positions by starting as a temp. Highly, highly recommend–if you’re pleasant, work hard, and decently capable, people will love you and your agency will love you and will call you back for additional placements.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Temping is how I got my career rolling in the beginning after a starter job. I enjoyed it, it really gives you a feeling for things and if you will like it or not in the end. Case and point, I learned I’d rather eat nails than work in a healthcare records or accounting office ;)

      Just be aware that to get started you have to really push at the agency to give you your first shot, sometimes it takes awhile for them to find a placement and they’re interested in placing their established temps first {since they feel most confident in them for good reason} but it’s worth it. I say this because often people fill out the temp agency paperwork and never hear back, it’s not a job interview, you do have to check in with the agency and let them know you’re really excited to get a placement and into their rotation!

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        Good to know! Sounds like while showing “gumption” isn’t generally good for people who want a job interview, it can be for people who want to get temp placements.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Try to remember that the temp agency is “your employer” but it’s very much a vague employer/employee relationship. You’re a commodity to them more than an employee and they work for you more than you work for them in the end, which is totally weird to look at things, I know! It’s very much it’s own animal.

      2. Former poofreader*

        Absolutely. My experience is old, but a few decades ago, if you wanted a temp placement, after you signed on, you had to call the agency every day to remind them that you wanted one.

        (I think, on the agency’s end, plenty of the registered temps are flakey or have other gigs, or are busy with a few days from another agency, and the agency isn’t going to waste time calling the temps — you call them.)

        Also, the first placement is key to getting the next. So you have to say yes to the placement that’s hard to get to, or sounds boring, or makes you wear a tie, so you’re at the top of the agency’s list for the next placement.

        Finally, a good temp agency is a big deal. I had one really good agency — they did only creatives, which may have been a difference. But after a certain amount of time with them you started getting health insurance and a little bit of 401K, and so on. And when there was an issue with an employer, they went to bat for me.

        *Finally* finally, AAM should really do a thread on best temp stories, from both sides of the aisle.

        1. just a random teacher*

          I agree with both the regular check-ins and the first assignment opening doors. When you go in to do the initial interview and paperwork with the agency, ask them how often they’d like you to check in, and then make a point of doing that. (I think I used to call in once a week, but it’s been years since I temped. Early in the morning early in the week is a good way to show that you’ll also reliably show up to a job under those circumstances, so I’d do it first thing in the morning.)

          One other piece of advice: they will probably pay you whatever you said your minimum hourly wage is. When I had a long-term temp job at a place that had a lot of long-term temps, we all compared wages once (during one of those awkward team-building meetings where all of the “real” employees disappear to go get food and prizes, and the temps are left at their desks wondering where everybody went) and figured out that we’d all said we’d work for $x and were all being paid $x, except for one person who’d said his minimum was $x+2, who was making that instead. It’s a tricky balance, because they’ll send the cheaper people when they can since it saves them money, but don’t expect any kind of raise after you start so make sure you’ve named a number you can live with.

          Also, your first position might well be a “roll out of bed when the agency calls you and go to the site right now” situation – I’ve had several of those. If you’re temping, not placed in a position yet, and want to make a good impression, you should basically prepare each night like you’re going to need to leave for work in a hurry in the morning. Make sure you have suitable clothes ready to go and something in the fridge that you can quickly grab as a sack lunch. (I always packed something that could live in a lunchbox and not need to be refrigerated or heated up for the first day of a new temp job, since I didn’t know the fridge/microwave/break room/nearby restaurant situation in advance.) I personally did not set an alarm and get up early “just in case”, but I did make sure everything was pre-staged so I could leave the house as soon as I’d showered, dressed, and grabbed my sack lunch.

    11. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: it’s been 30 years since I temped.

      That said–I loved temping (at that time!). If it had offered benefits I would have done it for the rest of my career. If you have good transportation, go for the short-term assignments and be a rock star. Most folks who are temping are looking for long-term or temp-to-perm and agencies scramble to fill those one week (or even one day!) contracts. After a month of doing all short-term stuff my agency started sending me out to picky/demanding clients or giving me the plumb, long-term jobs. I eventually went full-time with one of the places I temped and had an amazing 12 years there in a variety of positions.

      I worked everywhere from dentists offices to retail (new store set up) to higher ed to the local sewage treatment plant (which was actually a lot of fun!). It was a great way to try a lot of industries and also discover what dentist I would never consider as I was looking for a new dentist after a move and this was before the days of online reviews.

      Good luck and let us know how it goes.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! It’s good to know that starting with, and succeeding at, the short-term assignments helps lead to the long-term ones. And you certainly can get to explore lots of different industries!

      2. Steggy Saurus*

        Nanc, yes, the short-term assignment rock star role is a great one to take on. First off, do it well and your temp agency will love giving you jobs. Secondly, you rarely have a chance to get bored in a job (which can certainly be an issue in office work).

      3. Polyhymnia O'Keefe*

        I did this, too! I wasn’t interested in a temp-to-perm role (I temped for a year in between college and grad school), but had everything from 2-month assignments to planned vacation coverage to 7 AM calls to cover a sick receptionist. Overall, I loved it. It was fun to try different workplaces, and because I wasn’t there for long periods of time, it was really the kind of work that I could leave behind when I went home.

        I temped over school breaks while in grad school, and would just call the agency when I was in town or had a few weeks or a month that I needed to fill. A couple of years later, I was working on building up my career in theatre, but it wasn’t quite enough for full time, and my temp agency was able to give me some nice 2-day-per-week placements, mostly where workplaces were bringing someone in to work on a specific project for a limited time. I had a good reputation by that time, and could get the kind of placements that allowed me to keep working on my own projects.

        This ranged from 2006-2011, so YMMV as to the current state of things, but it really worked for me for that period of my life!

    12. Amber T*

      I was a temp-to-hire at my current job. I majored in Business, knew I wanted to go into the “business” world, but had no idea what. Thought about HR, thought about a couple of other things, but just wasn’t sure. I had also quit my previous (first job out of college) job without a back up due to how toxic and plain awful it was, and I figured temp work would at least get my foot in the door at places.

      I became a hybrid admin/receptionist at a specific type of finance firm that I didn’t know anything about (the industry or the firm) and was hired full time after 60 days (after discussing both with my temp rep and my supervisor that yes, I wanted to). I got to see a little bit of everything. A few years later, when I was feeling antsy, there was a specific department that needed help, and I found the work pretty interesting, and I ultimately got promoted into that department.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! It’s good to know that temp-to-hire may be an option.

    13. Ruth (UK)*

      I highly recommend temping – I graduated in 2012 and could only get retail/kitchen jobs at first. Stuck in a cycle of only being able to get that type of work, I tried temping. A temp call-centre-style job booking hospital appts for people turned permanent and I’m now in an admin in a uni.

      I have other friends who successfully temped for a while in part of their career.

    14. 867-5309*

      Temp! Temp! Temp!

      I’m working in the field in which I graduated – and have for nearly 20 years – and I still prefer temporary and contract work so I can try new things. It’s a great way to figure out what interests you most.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not a fan of temping on the whole, but it does serve a purpose sometimes, and in your case temping is definitely the purpose it serves! A good temp agency should be able to place you in more professional office settings. Sure, you might start off filing or at reception, but if you’re really not sure what you want in a career, that’s a fine place to start. Ideally, you may get to see several different types of offices (finance, law, corporate, ad agency, etc.) and get to see what different types of companies do on a daily basis.

      Some of the larger temp agencies also have skills development and even benefits for their temp employees, and it’s something to consider when signing with one. You might want to check out or interview with several before you commit to one, and not just, you know, apply for anything they post. Some are really good, and some are nasty and horrible (as with any employer).

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        I really appreciate your advice about things to look out for when choosing a temp agency. It sounds like you should evaluate temp agencies for fit in the same way you would a traditional employer.

    16. Not A Manager*

      Boats Against the Current – Sorry to interject my own question, but could you please share the source/name of your international teaching fellowship? Thank you so much.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        It’s no problem at all! I completed a Fulbright English Teaching Assistantship.

    17. Aphrodite*

      While I did not use temp agencies this way, I can tell you that in my city in central coastal California both the city and the local University of California often use one temp agency they have contracted with for much of their help. It seems like a good situation for all because the employers get the temps they need for as long as they need then and they get to work with them without a commitment. The employees get to try out these jobs without committing a career to them.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        Sounds like it benefits all parties involved! I’m interested in exploring whether there are similar opportunities in my area.

        1. Aphrodite*

          There might be. I’d suggest calling each agency and asking them if they have contracts with local government and/or educational institutions for temporary help. I think ours (at the time I was looking) was Apple One.

    18. Elizabeth West*

      I temped successfully for about a year before I was hired at OldExjob. It was with one company, and they liked me enough to ask me to work in their actual office when the receptionist was out. Unfortunately, the last time I went to them, I got nothing. It’s not working out for me now because the nature of the jobs in this area have changed since the recession. I have never gotten a permanent job offer from temping.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        I think your experience is a good reminder that temping will not necessarily lead to a permanent position. I think I am interested in it mostly for the opportunity to explore different fields rather than the possibility of a temp-to-hire situation, so maybe that’s for the best.

    19. Steggy Saurus*

      I loved temping. I did it in college and grad school just for the money (not for career exploration), but it really served to help me avoid some of the standard complaints about low-level office work. If you show that you’re responsible and can learn quickly, I found that agencies were very happy to send you out to the better clients. For a while, I served as my temp agency’s receptionist and they’d send me out to new clients to put on a good show for them.

      Practice your basic Excel and Word skills, and maybe ten-key and regular typing (depending on what kind of temp jobs the agencies around you hire for).

      Having been a manager for a while now, I can say that if an early-career person came to me with a resume that listed steady employment with a temp agency, and that agency gave me a good recommendation, I’d be very interested in hiring that person. I learned so much about flexibility, quick thinking, reliability, and collegiality working as a temp.

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        It’s really encouraging to hear that you would be interested in hiring someone new to the workforce who performed well while doing temp work! I think that temping would help me develop skills to succeed in the workplace, and I’m happy to know that a manager sees it that way as well.

    20. Lucy*

      It worked for me – I took a few short assignments in general admin positions before landing a maternity cover. It was another fairly general position but it led to a permanent post and then I moved up within the company adding expertise and qualifications and gaining a strong professional relationship. Here I am fifteen years later as a specialist.

      It’s a job – indeed a field – that I would never have known existed. It’s a great for for me.

      Temping can be weird. At one job I got a call from the agency on Friday afternoon asking if I’d be interested in some interviews on Monday because my boss only a few metres away in the same building had told the agency but not me that I wasn’t wanted any more
      That stung. But guess what job I interviewed for on the Monday …?

        1. Boats Against the Current*

          That is a strange experience—what an odd lack of communication. But it sounds like it worked out in the end, which is great to hear!

    21. DouDou Paille*

      Yes definitely consider temping. I have gotten several permanent jobs via that route, including when I was a new grad. It definitely helps to see the insides of different companies and industries.

    22. Mr. Shark*

      I highly recommend it. I was in a long-time job and wanted moved to a different city. I wanted to try out some new opportunities, so I hired on at a temp placement service. Some of the jobs weren’t great, but a few of them I really enjoyed and gave me a look into different industries which I never would have thought of being interested in.

      I was offered a chance to interview for a permanent job in one of the locations, but turned it down, because I knew it was not what I wanted to do. Not long after that, I was placed in a completely new industry. A year later after surviving layoffs, I was hired on full-time, and still am working at it 10 years later. It became a career I never knew I would be interested in!

      1. Boats Against the Current*

        It’s great hearing several stories from people who discovered fields they had no idea they would enjoy via temping. I’m excited about the possibilities. Thanks for sharing!

    23. Jadelyn*

      Do it! That’s how I made the jump from retail to white-collar career. The uncertainty of it can be difficult to handle sometimes – not knowing if your assignment will be extended, being told they want to hire you on permanent and then it not happening – but it was really valuable in helping me understand what kinds of places I DON’T want to work.

    24. Chaordic One*

      I found temping to be a mixture of ups and downs. Most places were happy to have me help out with a temporary problem or fill in for someone out on leave, and they treated me royally. Even though I might only be in the job for a short while I was treated as part of the team while there.

      OTOH, there were a few clinkers too. On one job where I thought everything was fine and that I was doing a good job, while on my lunch break I received a phone call from the temp agency that the employer didn’t need my services any longer and that I should consider the job over and go home. It was weird that no one at the employer’s office said anything to me. I never found out if they felt I was doing a lousy job, or if the job was over, or just what the deal was.

      Also, and I know this sounds like an unfair generalization, in my experience, the worst temp jobs were those where the employer was too cheap to hire a full-time permanent employee and where they would hire a series of temps, one after the other to fill a given position. These employers didn’t seem to respect their workers.

    25. Amethystmoon*

      I temped for approximately a decade before I was finally hired on somewhere. It is a good way to get experience, but I found (at least during the 90’s-00’s) that companies didn’t want to hire temps permanently because that meant giving us health benefits. They’d lead you on with the “sure, we’ll hire you after 6 months” thing, but never actually hire you permanently. Before the ACA passed, we temps had to often buy high deductible insurance, which meant that you didn’t dare go to the doctor for anything less than an actual emergency because you’d have to pay out of pocket. And you had to have a ROTH because few companies let temps have 401K(s). I don’t know if that’s still a thing, but I’d look for a permanent job until I got one, even if it paid slightly less, rather than temp if I got laid off now.

    26. voluptuousfire*

      It’s worth a shot! Definitely sign up with a bunch of agencies.

      I had two temp gigs actually come through. One was a horror show who let me go after a month because they couldn’t figure out what they were looking for in that role. They had 2 or 3 people before me, all were let go for “not being the right fit.” The second ended up being pretty good and I learned a lot. I worked with the director of payroll and she adored me and wanted me to apply for an opening in her department but in the end, I had no experience for it. It was good to know my work was good, especially considering how many roles I interviewed for and didn’t get at the time.

    27. Rachel*

      I work for 2 temporary agencies doing bookkeeping and think they are the way to go if you need, 1. to get hired somewhere quickly and 2. looking for something short term.
      Most of the clerical clients are looking for short term employees during busy seasons or for maternity / sick leave coverage. They don’t often turn into permanent placements at that company. Maybe 90% of the time this is the case.
      Our industrial clients are looking to temporary workers to try out the employee and then usually after a certain time, want to take the employee on permanently if everything is working out.

    28. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I would recommend it highly. I did a lot of temping through various temp agencies when I first graduated from college. It can also be useful when you’re older and you move to a new city. When I was doing it there was no such thing as Glassdoor or anything else like that, so if you’re not sure what a particular workplace might be like, Glassdoor might be helpful. I do remember one recruiter at a temp agency telling me that there was an opening at the Miss Universe Pageant (I think this was before our Tweeter-in-Chief owned it). I responded, “Beauty contests really offend me.” That was the end of that discussion.

    29. Nana*

      I temp’ed after being out of the job market for several years, and moving cross-country. Taking short-term temp jobs was an excellent way to (a) check out the job market without a commitment, (b) raise my awareness of what I would/wouldn’t like in an employer, (c) realize some benefits I had to have [paid parking…not an issue when I lived/worked in NYC…big deal in LA]

    30. Jiya*

      I temped because I had to – I graduated law school right when the economy went into its downturn, and there weren’t exactly a lot of opportunities on the ground in any industry, let alone law. That said, the temping helped me in a couple of ways:

      1. One company I temped for was a big, well-known corporation, which apparently made my resume look better to other employers. I only worked there for three months, but the difference in employer response before and after I had that resume item was really notable. (My previous work experience was at legal nonprofits and nonprofit theater.)

      2. That temp job also taught me that I don’t do well in unstructured, “find your own work” environments. I like to know what I’m doing and why and then to be left to figure out how to do it – being kind of let loose with no actual place in the organizational structure was really stressful for me. So when you’re working, be aware of yourself and what’s working and what’s not; it can save you a whole lot of stress later.

    31. Boats Against the Current*

      I don’t have time to respond to everyone, but I just want to thank you all for the wonderful comments! Your advice and accounts of your experiences have been so helpful!

  3. Theory of Eeveelution*

    What’s your attitude toward LinkedIn networking requests from complete strangers?

    I work for a very trendy startup, and often get requests from friends and acquaintances for information about it/passing on their names to hiring managers. I help out when I can, because that’s basically how I got this job and I want to pay it forward.

    However, I just got a LinkedIn message from a complete stranger wanting to “buy me coffee” to talk about the company. I’m obviously not going to meet up with a stranger, but should I offer to answer questions? I don’t really want to, but I feel guilty just not responding.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I deny all those requests. I don’t actually have to have met you in person, but I have to have “met” you in some capacity, even if it’s just on a professional mailing list or Slack. Requests to connect out of the blue are weird.

      That said, if someone is reaching out to you to buy you coffee to talk about a position (i.e., a potential job offer) at her company, that’s different, assuming you’re actually interested in the position.

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        I actually don’t find requests themselves to be weird. I like knowing about other people that are in the field, especially since it’s so small and niche. But this isn’t your second scenario – this person wants a job at my company, and I looked at their resume and I don’t see how they’re even qualified.

        (And I have to say: I’m a woman, and this field is often unkind to women. If the message had been from a qualified woman, I’d be a lot more open to helping them, but this is just some unqualified dude!)

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Oh, they’re asking if you’re hiring, and you don’t know them? Definitely deny. If you have a job available, they can just apply to it through the proper channels (email a cover letter and résumé or fill out an online application or whatever your process is).

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 You do not owe anyone your time.

        Also – I made my kid a great Lickitung costume. He has to ask before he licks anyone though.

        3. Arts Akimbo*

          You are the absolute best parent ever, Jules the 3rd!! :D

          (And, Hedgehog, it’s because the OP’s username is about Eevees, another Pokemon)

    3. LaDeeDa*

      I ignore them. Most are sales people wanting to sell me something I don’t need or want. If I am in the need for something I approach vendors I have researched.

    4. The Tin Man*

      I would ignore the connection request, and if I was feeling nice (I probably would) I’d send them to the company “About” or “Careers” page.

      No time to find it now but there was a question posted here about a similar situation but people were VERY persistent to the point of going to the LW’s spouse’s store to ask the spouse to talk to the LW on their behalf.

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Yeah, I remember that one! Something similar happened at my office: A coworker took an Uber to work, and the driver followed her inside to ask for a job for his brother. This is why I never tell anyone where I work, especially Uber/Lyft drivers, ugh.

    5. ten ton trucks*

      I ignore everything that isn’t from someone I actually know. You don’t need to feel guilty not responding, you don’t have any social contract with this person just because you’re on the same social networking website.

    6. Environmental Compliance*

      I generally ignore anyone that I haven’t met and I don’t share at least one connection with. Every so often I get one of my connection’s connections that works in the the same field requesting to connect (how many more times can connect be in this sentence??), and that’s totally fine with me – but I also get randoms somewhat often that aren’t even close to my field or anything related. Those go straight in the nope, no thanks pile.

      1. Juniper*

        I’m in the same field as you, and I have the same LinkedIn policy too. It can be useful as an introduction to others with very specific niches, but I generally deny the randoms.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yes! I like being able to expand my *work* network, but ya gotta be relevant to my work, Mr. I’ve-Requested-A-Connection-With-A-Creepy-Hey-Cutie-Message. Ick.

    7. epi*

      No, this is weird behavior and there’s no reason to reward it.

      I sometimes accept connection requests from strangers if there is relevance to me. Recruiters, people with similar research interests, people senior to me, people in my old role at an old job. If you start giving help to randoms on LinkedIn, there is pretty much no bottom.

      It’s great to help people, I try to respond to legitimate requests for advice or assistance in my field whenever I possibly can. But it is really hard, without an in person connection or a referral from someone you trust, to know that someone is a good recipient of your time and help. The fact that this person is out there being weird and making odd requests of strangers is the only evidence you have one way or the other, and it suggests this isn’t someone who will benefit much from your effort. I’d also be wary of getting similar inappropriate follow-up requests, or getting sucked into a friendship or mentorship I don’t actually want, with someone who would do this. Speaking from experience.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Unless it’s a recruiter or some kind of vendor/client thing, I don’t engage with that kind of thing. Especially if they are getting way too familiar so fast, buying you a coffee? Is this a date? I don’t like that, I don’t do chummy right out of the gate and I’m really really friendly.

    9. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I train job seekers on how to use LinkedIn, and have a very open policy of connections.

      However, I do insist that they’ve personalized their note enough to indicate that they actually looked at my profile and processed any of the information, and preferably stated why they would like to connect.

      If a request gives me red flags and/or is too vague, I message them back without accepting the connection saying “what prompted you to want to connect with me?” 7/10 don’t even respond, making my decision easy.

      In this case, I’d probably ask an additional probing question first — “what is it that you’d like to know?” would be a good one. I might not even be the right connection for the person. And certainly don’t need to disrupt my day and travel to a place to get a cup of coffee because someone else didn’t do their research.
      So, if they respond and say, “are you guys hiring?” then the answer is – umm, check our website. If the response is more substantive, perhaps a useful enough answer can be provided via message.

      And if in our messages, I start to think that this is an interesting person, then I can build that relationship in the regular way.

      1. Amber T*

        On the opposite end of that – my LinkedIn page is largely blank (where I worked/have worked and my education, but no job descriptions). I always laugh when I get requests from recruiters that say “based on your LinkedIn page, you’d be a great fit in this role we’re hiring for!” I mean, really? My LinkedIn is blank. Does that mean the job you’re hiring for doesn’t do anything? Cuz I’d be happy to sit around and do nothing if it paid well enough.

        1. Theory of Eeveelution*

          Weird, my page is pretty well filled out and I’ve never gotten a message from a recruiter!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            My page is very filled out and I get a mishmash of recruiters that actually have read my profile, and have something legitimate to offer, and recruiters that apparently think they don’t need to read anything about you to offer you this job! It’s awesome! You’ll need to relocate 3000 miles, it only pays $12/hr, totally only 3 months long, no benefits, and it’s something science related, so you’ll interview right???!

            1. Theory of Eeveelution*

              Ugh, I was once on an industry mailing list that would send out crap like this. This was associated with my graduate program, so it was especially insulting!

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                Same here! I roll my eyes especially hard at the “you’e a perfect fit based on your LinkedIn profile !” Eh, no… not when the position specifically is looking for someone who has just graduated or is about to graduate with a Microbio degree, and I’m several years out from my Master’s in environmental policy…

                At first I felt bad for ignoring them, but definitely don’t now.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      If they’re in a somewhat related field, or a potential vendor/supplier, I usually will accept the connection (turning down the meeting). But if it’s some totally random person or seems weirdly suspicious, I ignore. Some of the sales tactics I’ve seen upon connecting are so over the top. I’ll first try the “Thanks, but I’m not interested,” but if they get too annoying or aggressive, I’ll disconnect. I guess I have more tolerance because I also work in marketing.

      They get ONE free pass on this. Hey, I understand they ‘gotta try working their leads, but too much is too much.

    11. Peaches*

      Following! I get such a large volume of random requests. Oddly enough, most of the requests are from people who work if a totally different field than I do, in a totally different area of the country. I always wonder how they even came across my profile.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      Nope. If I don’t know you at all, or we haven’t had any kind of professional contact, I won’t add you.

    13. cmcinnyc*

      I think you can treat out-of-the-blue LinkedIn networking requests the same way I treat random men asking for date on Twitter: ignore and block. If it’s someone in your industry you might conceivably run into, you can stop short of blocking. As someone who has made inappropriate, clueless requests from time to time (hey, live and learn) I can tell you that getting no response can be useful. It made me think “Oh, was that inappropriate? Perhaps clueless?” That was not a bad question to ask myself!

    14. Lepidoptera*

      Context matters, so I take it case by case.

      The guy 20 years younger than me who randomly wants to meet for coffee to “chat about our experiences at [same college]” and he works for a financial services firm? That’s a no, he was obviously chasing leads and planned to try to sell me annuities.

      The woman a few years out of college who seems to be trying to break into my field, has a few jobs that are sort of diagonally-related, and has work samples on a well-done personal website? Her I made time to have a Skype conversation with.

    15. square toes*

      I’m in a bit the same position – I work for a trendy startup. I deny all Linked-in requests that are not personalized to me/my company. However, I sometimes get requests from people (so far, all have been students) that are more personalized – it’s clear they’ve read my linked in profile, and somehow tie their studies to what my company does. I usually meet with those people – it won’t help them get a job, but it may help them understand the working world/time frame better. “yes, we have an open job for a llama wrangler, and while your master’s in shoeing alpacas puts in you the ball-park, we’ve had 50 applications from llama wranglers with PhD’s. You think you’re qualified, but the competition is much tougher than you imagine”

    16. theletter*

      I have met up for coffee with complete strangers from linkedin, but my company has a generous referral bonus so it is worth it try to recruit. I would not meet with someone who was trying to sell me something. Sometimes they want to recruit me. I can usually tell from their job title what they are looking for, but if not, I’ll ask what they’re looking to get out of meeting up.

    17. TheAssistant*

      I recently was the coffee-offerer – I wanted to talk to folks in my technical field with non-technical backgrounds to start to lay the groundwork for the next 3-5 years of my career. However, I did limit it to alumni of my undergrad and was not expecting any responses. I was shocked that I got 3 people to meet me (and it was way more helpful than even I expected, so that was nice).

      I’ve also helped out recent grads of my school looking to dive into my general field, but only did so when they seemed to relatively have their sh*t together.

      I wouldn’t feel guilty no matter what you choose, and you should feel free to opt out completely or only do email questions/Skype or whatever.

      1. TheAssistant*

        I will say I made it VERY clear that I was not looking for a job, but rather to hear their experience in getting to where they were in their career. I work in a hot field right now and there’s tons of options for *breaking in* and paying buttloads of money to become marketable to employers, and I was really trying to suss out actual experience from the noise. I think that’s why it went over better.

    18. Galloping Gargoyles*

      I actually deleted Linked In about two years ago because I kept getting requests from people that I didn’t know at all. Some were 2nd or 3rd contacts (or whatever the LI term is) but others I think searched “teapot stenciler” and connected with me because my title is “Chief Teapot Stenciler”. There has been a few times (like count on one hand) that I’ve been trying to find someone and the only connection was LI so I couldn’t but really, overall, I’m totally happy with my decision to walk away from it. I just didn’t find it very useful for networking or well really anything.

    19. Cindy Featherbottom*

      I dont mind requests like these most of the time. The couple that I’ve gotten are usually people asking advice on how to get into my industry (it can be super hard when you dont have experience). I tend to get that since I’ve been doing this a while (10+ years). I typically dont mind them since its usually just advice, not meeting them somewhere. If its not a huge inconvenience, I’ll help where I can. I fell into my industry purely by chance and I realize not all people have such an easy time getting their foot in the door, so I try to help where I can. But if its coming off as odd/weird, feel free to ignore it.

    20. TGOTAL*

      Unless we’ve met in person or at least exchanged emails, I don’t even respond to link requests from people with whom I do have connections in common. I work for a prominent organization that has very specific hiring practices that I cannot affect in any way. Painfully detailed advice on navigating those processes is readily available on the internet, and the procedures have changed enough since I went through them that I really don’t have anything to add anyway.

      I use a very generic job title – think hiring category rather than specific role – so anyone who randomly asks to connect with me has no basis on which to assume what I do is at all relevant to their own field. I assume most of these people are really just looking to pad their own profiles and make themselves look more legitimate by connecting with as many people as possible from my organization.

      That being said, I’ll totally link with you even if we only chatted at a conference or exchanged emails to organize a meeting. People in my field tend to be highly mobile, so I really use LinkedIn as “professional Facebook” to keep track of the comings and goings of colleagues and contacts. I’ve also connected with my family members, actual friends, and real-life and virtual non-work acquaintances.

  4. Not American*

    Two coworkers are going a business trip so where they’ll need to take a flight. One of them (CW1) is obese, and while she can usually fit into one plane seat there’s a lot of spilling over to adjacent seats and really, two seats would be better but the budget doesn’t allow for that (it’s a charity).

    CW2 has said (in private, not in from of CW1) that she’s doesn’t want to be booked in a seat next to CW1 because she’d feel terribly uncomfortable, but doesn’t know how to bring this up without it being awkward. It’s a pretty long flight (6+hours) so not really something you can just grin and bear for a bit.

    Any advice on how to approach this issue? It’s likely to be an issue that will come up again since travel usually happens in pairs, and they can’t exactly tell CW1 she can’t go on business trips if her job calls for it. And from reading past posts here, asking her to address her weight won’t end well either. (Even if they could be convinced to pay for an extra seat or an upgrade there’d probably be a lot of talk about how one coworker is getting special treatment purely for being fat. It’s not exactly the most forgiving of cultures in that respect.)

    1. No Tribble At All*

      –“asking her to address her weight won’t end well either”

      Besides being a jerk thing to do, it’s likely impossible (and unhealthy) to lose that much weight that quickly, so this wouldn’t even solve your problem. All it would do is make CW1 feel bad. Just book CW2 a seat that isn’t next to CW1? And maybe ask if CW1 has a preferred airline. I know we’ve had posts here before about plus-size people on flights.

      1. Observer*

        If CW1 is that obese, there is no way they are losing enough weight in time for any trip.

        But the simple fact that this is even mentioned as a serious possibility shows how deeply and rooted toxic stupidity around weight is.

        1. ten ton trucks*

          +1 It is absolutely horrible how airlines and social expectations have put the burden on the person. Instead of saying “how dare the airlines do this”, the burden is placed on the person, and they are told they are literally a burden for having the body they do.

          1. PJM*

            Thank you for saying this. I frequently think this myself. The greedy greedy airlines keep making the seats smaller and smaller, packing people in like sardines. While Americans keep getting bigger, the airlines do the opposite and make the seat smaller. Yet the anger is directed at the overweight? It doesn’t make any sense. And I have seen plenty of tall people and men with broad shoulders who can barely fit in these seats as well. The lack of outrage at the airlines is terrible.

            1. Queen_of_Comms*

              I’m a 5’9″, 130-pound woman and the seats are even cramped for me. Every time I fly, my heart goes out to those taller or heavier, as I have no idea how they are able to fly with any remote notion of comfort. The introduction of these ridiculous basic economy flights is only exacerbating the issue.

              1. Kat in VA*

                I’m 5’8 and around 130 with broad shoulders and a narrow butt and I’m almost touching the armrests every time. Anyone bigger than that is going to be in misery. I don’t fly all that often but every time I do, I’m surprised at how SMALL the seats are.

            2. Elizabeth West*

              I am tall, and they’ve also reduced the pitch (distance between seats) so I now have practically no legroom. Whenever I get on a commuter jet out of our airport (a necessity, since we are serviced by legacy carriers but you have to fly to their hubs to actually get anywhere), I wonder if I’ll actually fit. And then I get on the regular plane and the seat isn’t much better. :\

              1. ten ton trucks*

                I’m average height. There are seats I can barely get into and airlines I won’t fly in because I can’t move my legs at all. I don’t know how my 6’4 relative manages.

              2. Artemesia*

                I”m a tallish woman 5’8″ but certainly on the small side for a man — the seats are miserable for me; I really feel for 6 foot plus guys or very tall women. Today you have to buy economy plus at a huge premium to get the pitch that was normal 15 years ago.

              3. Nessun*

                I’m tall and heavy (female), so I don’t fit well in most seats. Air travel is something I tolerate because it gets me to my work events or holidays, but it’s never fun. I try to always book with WestJet in their Premium Encore seats (used to be called Plus), because they offer more leg room and more hip room. I’ve found if I book far enough in advance, the price difference is $80 or so per flight, which my company is fine with paying.

        2. Ceiswyn*

          I’d like to amplify this point. People often have unrealistic expectations about weight loss, so let’s be absolutely clear here; the absolute maximum rate at which a very obese person can lose weight, under medical supervision and for 8 weeks max, is 4lb/week. The maximum maintainable rate at which an obese person can lose weight is 2lb/week.

          Say CW1 would have to lose 100lb in order to fit into a seat without overspilling. If they started right now, under medical supervision, and did absolutely everything right, they could fit into an aeroplane seat by… Christmas.

          In reality, weight loss is not that simple nor that easy. I used to be morbidly obese, and lost 245 lb to get into the normal/healthy weight range for the first time in my life. It took me TWO YEARS. And that was with a highly unwise rate of loss and total commitment to the point of obsession.

          So even if it were in any way acceptable to ask someone to lose weight, on a practical level it just wouldn’t work anyway.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            That’s also presuming they don’t have any issues like thyroid disorders, which exacerbate weight problems and can make it very difficult to lose weight. I found I have to exercise for a minimum of 120 minutes daily for at least 4 days a week in order to lose 10 pounds in about 6 months. That’s during the time in my upper-Midwest state where it’s not covered in snow and ice, and also being extremely anal about what I eat. Someone who doesn’t have the time or ability to exercise that much is probably going to find it very difficult. I only did it because I could walk to work.

            1. Sarah*

              Thyroid problems push down your bmr. You can solve this by either increasing your calories out (what you did) or by reducing your calorie intake. Reducing your calorie intake saves you money as well.

              1. Anu*

                It’s really not that simple, once hormonal issues are at play. Maybe you reduce your caloric consumption, but your hormonal makeup causes all you do consume to be deposited as fat. You don’t lose much weight, but you’re still fatigued and have no energy. It’s not as simple as just reduce calories.

                1. Sarah*

                  Actually, it is that simple. Hormones affect appetite, not metabolism. You can look up Google scholar if you’d like.

                2. Observer*

                  Google scholar is not the be all and end all of medical research. Hormone issue most definitely CAN affect metabolism. The ways in which that happens are varied, with different types of effects.

              2. Cindy Featherbottom*

                Its really not that simple. Thyroids can be over or under active, which can result in people not being able to gain weight who are under weight or the exact opposite. Its really NOT that easy. Getting thyroid hormones back to normal when your thyroid is out of whack takes a lot of work. I’ve had patients who have struggled for over a year just to find the right medication/strength that properly gets their T3/T4 back to normal. Its requires a lot of doctors visits and blood work to get a thyroid issue under control. It is most definitely not an easy fix.

                1. Cindy Featherbottom*

                  And Sarah, T3 and T4 affect the basic metabolic rate of your cells, which does in turn affect your appetite. They are very much connected

                2. Sarah*

                  True but CICO (calories in calories out) still applies. There are many people with thyroid problems who successfully lose weight.

                  And of course, most obese and overweight people don’t have thyroid issues.

                3. Ethyl*

                  People aren’t Bunsen burners and the amount of calories in/calories out doesn’t work the same way as one. It’s not that simple, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and thyroid disorders are incredibly common.

              3. Observer*

                Reducing your calorie intake saves you money as well.

                Not necessarily so. Nutrient dense, low calorie foods can be EXPENSIVE. And in general, good quality food that is not high calorie tends to be a lot more expensive than that the higher calorie equivalents.

                And reducing your calories to the point that you can work around issues like thyroid is not all that simple, either. You sometimes have to go low enough that you can’t actually get your nutritional needs met from food – and that’s aside from the fact that a lot of people don’t actually function well on such a low calorie diet.

        3. Not Me*

          Regardless of whether or not they can lose the weight in time it is not ok to ask an employee to lose weight.

          Obesity is not covered under the ADA so they do not “need” to pay for the second seat. It is 100% possible to book the two co-workers in seats that aren’t next to each other though.

          1. Katie the Fed*

            “Obesity is not covered under the ADA”

            But I do believe that if there is an underlying medical cause, that CAN be covered under the ADA

    2. Observer*

      So, it doesn’t matter that it’s a charity – if CW actually needs 2 sears then that’s what the employer needs to provide. That’s true regardless of the charity status of the employer.

      That needs to be your starting point in dealing with this.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, you need to buy her two seats. You absolutely, positively, in no way, shape, or form, can ask her to “address her weight”. The weight issue has an obvious solution, and that is getting her two seats. Reframe this from “How can we save money/how can we tell CW1 she is literally a waste of space/money?” to “What does CW1 need for work travel?” And shut down the bigotry.

        CW1 can ask for seats that aren’t together for privacy/downtime/so they don’t get sick of each other. At the gate, she can say she’s okay with being moved so others can sit together.

    3. Amber Rose*

      It shouldn’t cost any more to just not book them seats side by side.

      And yeah, aside from being a horrendously dick move to ask CW1 to lose weight, losing enough weight to not spill over into other seats safely takes months or years, which would not help you at all.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah but not booking them side-by-side doesn’t solve CW1’s problem – that she needs two seats. Booking her one seat risks her being told to buy a second one or removed from the flight.

    4. EMW*

      I hate sitting next to coworkers on airplanes. We all book travel separately, and then we often compare seats to ensure we’re not too close together. I’ll change my seat in the app. I book all my own travel. Are they being booked on the same reservation?

      1. Joanne’s Daughter*

        When I had to travel for work I would never book seats next to coworkers, I figured we would ave plenty of ime together and I wanted to travel without feeling I had to entertain someone during flights.

      2. Djuna*

        Same.
        Last trip we had there were 4 of us, and none of us so much as shared a flight. We all had different preferences around layover times and airports so it worked out nicely.

    5. The Tin Man*

      That’s interesting because I wouldn’t think that it would be an issue because in my experience even if employees are booked on the same flight it would be random chance for them to be seated together. Is that a typical thing in your company? Are you asking because you are booking the flight or just asking for advice on how to advise CW2 to approach things?

      And I just can’t let it go at how gross it is that people would consider it “special treatment” for CW1 to get an extra seat. Maybe if they were getting upgraded to business/first class for that reason and CW2 doesn’t also get the upgrade but not simply an extra seat.

    6. Observer*

      On another note, if I’m reading your post correctly, your culture is more that “not the most forgiving”, it’s actively toxic. If someone actually pays for an upgrade people are going to complain that they got special treatment?! What kind of lunacy is this?

      1. DolphinFeels*

        An accommodation is not special treatment. And yes, two seats could be considered a reasonable accommodation.

        1. Not Me*

          Obesity isn’t covered by the ADA, unless she has some other ADA covered disability reasonable accommodations wouldn’t come into play here.

          1. Holly*

            That perspective is troubling since obesity is in a bit of a grey area re: ADA, and sure, the company could win in a lawsuit over it, but why take the risk? Also, some states may have more stringent protections.

      2. INeedANap*

        The OP’s username is ‘Not American’, and I have heard anecdotally that there are other countries whose culture is much harsher on overweight people than would be expected in America.

    7. Bagpuss*

      Could she suggest that they book 2 aisle seats? that way, they could be next to each other but with the aisle in betweemn so the issue wouldn’t arise.
      Or alternatively, ask that they book an aisle and a window seat (which I understand a lot of couples do, as if the flight isn’t full, it may mean you get an emty middle seat between you.

      I think longer term, they can also speak to their employers about a policy to book premium seats or 2 seats where appropriate, for the benefit of their staff and of any fellow travellers

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        I came here to say exactly this. My wife and I have done this a number of times. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t but it is worth a try. If it works then CW1 has the room that they need. The two aisle seats is also a good idea.

      2. LittleMy*

        My spouse and I usually do aisle seats across from one another since we both prefer not to have a middle or window seat. Works very well if the expectation is to sit together. I’ll add that sitting with co-workers on flights is something that I actively avoid – I’d rather be able to use that time on a flight to catch up on work or relax or sleep – none of which I’d be very comfortable with sitting with a colleague!

    8. Ashley*

      Just book them in separate seats or make sure CW2 when boarding makes it about alone time and nothing about weight. No way I want to sit on a plane next to a co-worker if I can help it.

      1. Ms.Vader*

        If you are large enough to need two seats, that second seat isn’t a perk. I can guarantee that person will probably feel embarrassed and maybe shame because it’s such an upfront declaration that they are fat. I’m not saying that is what they should feel – I just know as a chubby person that’s what I get scared of most when I book flights – whether I’m obese enough to need two seats. I think some compassion is in order here. So yes ensure CW2 isn’t seated close to CW1 but also…advocate for that second seat and do it without putting shame on CW1.

    9. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      If booked in a seat next to my coworker, I would just quietly change my seat once my reservation is made, and not say anything to anyone about it. You can do that on the airline app, their website, or even call the airline from home. If your coworker or anyone else at work calls you out on it once you are on the plane and not sitting next to them, you can just matter-of-factly say that was the seat you were assigned.

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        BTW, my comment above goes for sitting next to any cowowker, regardless of their weight. :)

        1. TechWorker*

          Yep definitely regardless of anything else, who *wants* to sit next to a colleague for a long flight?! No thanks.

          1. Kat in VA*

            On the flip side, the last business trip I took with a colleague, we opted to share a plate of truffle fries at the airport before we flew home. About three bites in, both of us realized they were GARLIC truffle fries, *heavy* on the garlic. Both of us laughed it off – noting it was a good thing we were seated next to each other! (commuter flight, 2×2 configuration) She was also a fantastic seatmate – she turned on her iPad and watched her downloaded TV shows and I read my magazines silently and listened to music…and I don’t think we exchanged more than ten words during the whole five hour flight.

            1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

              You’re lucky- it sounds like you and your colleague are excellent seat mates! I have colleagues who would give side-eye to anyone who does anything but work on a flight (or whenever, really). LOL about the garlic fries!

    10. A Cataloger*

      If you can book them on Southwest. They have a great passenger of size policy, including that you don’t need to book two seats in advance, you can ask the agent when you get to the airport (before going through security). In addition to that Southwest doesn’t have assigned seating so each person can choose where they want to sit.

      1. formerDoDscientist*

        Also, if you buy 2 seats in advance because you need two based on size, they will refund the second seat after the flight. That way you don’t have to worry about what happens if the flight is full.

      2. Rectilinea Propagation*

        The commentor isn’t American and Southwest only files in the United States and Central America.

        However, finding an airline with a passenger of size policy or at least similar practices is still good advice.

    11. Llellayena*

      Book an aisle and window seat on a three seat row? It’s not a guarantee, but if the flight isn’t full that seat might stay empty. And I get the “charity budget” thing, but it’s not “special treatment”, it’s “accommodation of a medical issue.” It’s similar to needing to book an extra seat for an oxygen tank (maybe a bit less critical, but same idea of a medical necessity that cannot be separated from the passenger). I’m really hoping our culture improves on this attitude.

      1. Camellia*

        “…accommodation of a medical issue.” I wonder if she could get a note from her doctor that would force them to book two seats or upgrade to business class or whatever is needed. Would that possibly work?

        1. Liane*

          It might work, but I’d hate for it to take a doctor’s note to get CW1 the needed second seat. If CW used an O2 tank would the company insist she get a doctor’s note to buy her a second seat for the tank?

          1. Camellia*

            Well, I would hope they would not require a doctor’s note for an oxygen tank, but for a condition that most people think of as ‘how you look’ instead of ‘a condition that needs to be accommodated’, a doctor’s note would switch that context.

            My husband has an invisible disability which has caused him to gain weight due to the fact that he can no longer stand or walk for any length of time, much less exercise. People can’t see the reason, they just see the weight gain and blame him for it. He would definitely get himself a doctor’s note, if needed.

        2. Grumpy*

          A lot of doctors would try to push her into weight-loss surgery if given this kind of opening. The medical field is appallingly hostile to fat folks. If she has an awesome doctor (there are a few), great, but unless she knows the doc well and feels comfortable and safe with them, I would NEVER ask her to do this. Ever.

          1. Camellia*

            Interesting thought. We move rather frequently for my job, which means finding new doctors. We are quite adept at saying Nope, that one’s not gonna work out, and moving on to the next. No one meets everyone’s needs, just like no one likes every song or poem or work of art or therapist or doctor or surgeon.

            This person may not know to do that. Or perhaps, like my husband, there is a reason for her weight and her doctor knows it and could easily and willingly provide a note.

        3. Kat in VA*

          This is exactly what my company does – if you need two seats, you get a doctor’s note stating such and they will either book two seats or a business seat. It’s not ideal (because the stigma/shame of a doctor’s note is still there) but at least they’re nont leaving a person nont twist in the wind not knowing if they’ll have to purchase another seat right before a flight.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Side note – the newer Macbook keyboards really suck and I should take advantage of their free replacement for this sticking N key.

    12. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      I used to book a lot of travel, 9xs out of 10 if two people were traveling together they specifically (though discretely – like each would reach out to me separately) requested NOT to be seated together.

      Book them separate seats (or recommend to CW2 to select a separate seat) and don’t bring it up. If CW1 does bring it up, mention that CW2 likes to use travel time to decompress or get some reading done or whatever.

      Sure, some people would prefer to sit with co-workers, and that’s totally fine, but it’s a common enough sentiment to not want to sit with a co-worker that this shouldn’t raise any eyebrows

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Agreed. My co-worker and I often get booked in the same row when we travel together, and we have both said that we are the ONLY people we would do that with because we have complete respect for each other’s space (literally and figuratively). I once sat next to my boss and hated it.

      2. CM*

        That’s really funny! I never would have expected that people would ask that, but I totally get it.

    13. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Book 2 aisle seats across from each other? Likely have to pay a bit extra to choose seats but less than an extra seat.

    14. Jilly*

      Just because two people from the same company are flying somewhere together there is no need for them to sit next to each other. I sometimes have to take 15 hour flights for work. The only thing that could make that worse would be to sit next to a coworker.

    15. KR*

      I’m not sure about how it’s normally done at your work but I have been on the same plane with various coworkers and managers before and the only time I sat with them was when a coworker who I am friendly with asked me to as they are a nervous flyer and don’t like to travel alone. Otherwise I intentionally chose seats AWAY from coworkers. Planes are smelly and your hands are always full and I get sweaty and it is not a situation I want to be close to a coworker for. I don’t think it would be weird to seat them apart. But OP should really just buy the extra ticket.

    16. Safetykats*

      If you’re in the US, the ADA covers this. My dad has two artificial hips, and requires a wider aisle AND and aisle seat as he can’t maneuver to a window seat through the coach aisles. Therefore he has a medical dispensation to fly business or first class. I have no patience with people who view this as undeserved special treatment – he has impaired movement.

      However, accommodations generally need to be requested. So if the employee who needs an extra seat or a larger seat won’t request one, and you’re not in a position to request one for them (e.g., you’re not their manager) there isn’t much you can do.

      I would note that a lot of US airlines offer a business class upgrade that can be added after purchase. When I have a long business flight I often add that and cover the cost myself – I don’t have any medical reason to do so, but I’m happier (and less tired) at he end of the day if I have a little more room. So maybe if the larger employee won’t request a second seat, they could at least request this kind of upgrade. Last time I did this it was about $50 each way – far less than an extra seat. And possible enough extra room to be adequate – hard to tell without more information.

    17. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Not what you’re asking – but Southwest allows you to book the extra seat and pay for it up front and then be reimbursed after the flight. Persons of size are also permitted to board first to ensure they have both seats adjacent to each other. (My mother who is smaller than I am did this on a vacation she took with me and it worked out just fine.)

    18. Delphine*

      If CW2 has the privilege of flying in a seat that fits her body, making sure CW1 has that same privilege is not giving her special treatment.

    19. Parenthetically*

      CW2 needs to ask to be booked into a different part of the aircraft so she can have some alone time. Separate it from the weight issue. Your company should also call various airlines to ask about their policies for larger-bodied passengers. There are some out there with humane policies that allow folks with larger bodies to fly comfortably without having to spend double on a ticket.

      Also, your company culture is genuinely terrible (accommodating people’s physical requirements is not “special treatment”), and I’d urge you to look at how you may have absorbed some of it, given that your only apparent qualm about not asking a coworker to change the size of her body for the convenience of her employer is that it “won’t end well,” rather than that it’s a grossly discriminatory and insulting thing to do.

    20. MissDisplaced*

      >No reason for them to sit together: Seats can be changed post-reservation.
      >Buy the 2 seats if it’s needed!
      >If you can’t buy 2 seats for the overweight employee, pay a little more for an upgraded seat in a preferred location that has more room (usually behind the bulkhead or where there are only 2 seats in the row). This may provide enough room for them depending on how big they are.
      >Put them in business class where the seats are larger.

      And I must say it’s terrible nowadays for those LARGER ‘folks of all types to fly. The airplane seats keep getting smaller and more densely packed, making it bad for anyone over 6 feet tall or more than about 200 pounds.
      My husband is a big guy. He’s not obese, but he’s well over 6 feet tall and just an overall beefier (big feet, big head, gig hands & legs) kind of guy who takes up man-space LOL! He hadn’t flown in a few years, and on our recent flight to Europe he was so cramped and uncomfortable he kept spilling over his seat and elbowing into me. That did not used to be the case and he hasn’t changed in size in 15 years.
      Honestly, I don’t think even The Rock or Jason Momoa would fit in a modern coach class seat.

      1. Tiny Soprano*

        Not even just for larger folks, but for anyone above petite. I’m 5’4 and 105lbs and I find airline seats on the snug size. If I’m who airlines design their seats for, there’s a serious problem! I think this company should ask themselves what they would do for an employee who was say 6’6 and can’t fit in a regular airline seat. If the answer is ‘upgrade them,’ then that should apply for anyone whose body can’t fit in absurdly small airline seats for any reason.

    21. AnonyNurse*

      Coworkers should not be expected to sit next to each other on flights. They should pick their own seats and be done with it. Irrespective of any other concerns, it’s ridiculous to think that not only do you have to spend all day together every day at work, you also must spend a six hour flight trapped next to each other, privy to every moment.

      2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Agreed. It seems to be super important to some people to sit with your coworkers on a flight. And they try to make you feel like you’re doing something wrong if you don’t want to. It’s ridiculous.

    22. Cat Fan*

      She might say she’d like to sit elsewhere so she feels like she has some downtime from working. When I traveled with by boss, we both agreed that sitting apart would be a welcome break from work since we’d be spending so much time together at the destination. And it was.

    23. Kotow*

      Charity or not, if she needs two seats to fly comfortably, that’s what they need to provide. I imagine she’s just as uncomfortable knowing that she’s taking up two seats and bothering her coworker as a result, not to mention the physical discomfort of being in a seat that’s too small (and those seats are getting much smaller now). Getting two seats isn’t special treatment, it’s what she needs to fly comfortably and safely; and I say this as someone who is 5 ft tall and 100 pounds, so people think it’s completely okay to take up half of my space because I’m not using all of it. I can see the “special treatment because of weight” issue if you’re talking about an upgrade rather than an additional seat. But really I’d rather have to pay for my own upgrade and get the same “perk” than be uncomfortable and resentful next to a coworker because an employer won’t pay for a reasonable accommodation.

      If there truly is no other option, then can’t they just not book the coworkers next to each other? I guess I’m not sure how they end up sitting next to each other anyway but may be misunderstanding how the flight booking process works.

    24. Peggy*

      Seems like, all other issues aside, you might as well just book an aisle seat and a awindow seat so everyone is more comfortable.

    25. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Ask the airlines that you are considering what is their policy on customers of size. The U.S. airlines tend to have one–in other countries I am not sure. If you can’t find an official policy, call the airlines’ sales offices or ticket offices and ask. As you said, this could come up again, so it’s as well to know how to address it.
      Also, don’t seat them next to each other. That’s easy.
      And, OMG, DO NOT tell CW1 to address her weight. That is unkind and singularly unhelpful.

    26. Rectilinea Propagation*

      …there’d probably be a lot of talk about how one coworker is getting special treatment purely for being fat.

      1) Apparently this organization isn’t willing to buy 2 seats for CW1’s comfort so the person who would be getting special treatment in this situation is CW2. The extra seat is actually for her.

      2) This is only a problem if it would bother CW1 to deal with their bad attitude. That’s likely but it’s also likely that they’d rather be physically comfortable on flights than cater to their co-worker’s feelings on this.

      If the latter is the case then just let them be mad.

    27. Policy wonk*

      When traveling with co-workers I make a point of NOT sitting with them, partcularly if it is a long flight. The last thing you need is a co-worker telling others what movie you watched or that you snored, or chewed loudly or something similar. Not wanting to sit next to a co-worker has nothing to do with that person and everything to do with needing personal space.

    28. Samwise*

      Book two seats next to each other, but put CW 2 in the aisle seat so that they have room to put their feet. Or even better, book TWO aisle seats (could be across from each other if they have to talk business while on the plane).

  5. Partly Cloudy*

    Hello AAM community!

    I need some advice on how to introduce internal customers to a new team member who will be handling their day to day needs.

    A bit of background: I’m still new to my company (about 3 months) and I only overlapped with my predecessor for literally a few days before her last day. The transition wasn’t communicated well to the field and some of them were quite upset to learn that she had left and they didn’t quite know who I was.

    The plan all along was for me to hire another person into the department (I was brought in as the manager) and transition the day to day stuff so I can focus on bigger projects and generally, management. We’ve been training our new hire for the past three weeks and I’d like to introduce her to the field while reassuring them that I’m still here and can still help them with special situations, will be here to support the new hire, etc.

    Given the fact that some of them complained about poor communication in the past, can I please get some suggestions for wording that is informative and reassuring?

    Thanks!

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      In the past I’ve handled by copying the new hire in on existing communications with the relevant people. I just add an intro at the end of an email- “I also wanted to take this opportunity to introduce you to Amelia, our new team member. She has joined as a (insert role) and will ultimately be taking over most of the day to day communication with you. Having Amelia on our team allows me to shift my focus to larger projects and management. I will be working with Amelia during her transition, so please feel free to start reaching out to her directly as well (or add info about an official ‘transition date’ when she’ll be fully taking over the duties).” Something like that!

      Alternatively you could send it out as a special ‘welcome email’ and copy in all the relevant parties. I would still copy her in on relevant emails. It helps her see some history, etc. Also might not be a bad idea for her to set up brief 15 min meetings to introduce herself to people.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Yes, I work with internal clients and I’ve moved projects a lot in the past, and I’ve seen this pretty much as the standard.

    2. Zephy*

      A general “welcome email” with instructions to reach out to Amelia with questions about X going forward is a good idea. I get the sense that you might feel like you need to explain that you aren’t leaving, given the way the transition was handled when you started. You don’t, and in fact doing so could very well undermine Amelia’s ability to do her job. The same people that grumbled about it last time are the people who will go around her to you with questions that she should be handling, because they don’t like change.

          1. Zephy*

            Oh yeah, that was another thing I had meant to include – ask them to go to the new girl, rather than you turning around and making the request on their behalf. I was in a similar position and it was always awkward when people went around me to my boss because that’s what they’d always done, because then it felt like anything coming from her on someone’s behalf had to have higher priority, even if it really didn’t. My boss did not make much of an effort to redirect people when this happened, and it really served to undermine the whole system that she and I had set up.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Just send out a general company wide welcome email which says something like:

      “Please welcome aboard Susan Ivanova. Susan will be assisting me with the day to day activities and you can contact her about docking schedules, resource allocation, and similar things. You can reach her at XXX-XXXX or email her at susan@babylon5.gov. “

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Hooray for Babylon 5 references! Thank you for this; it made my evening. Ivonova is God. :)

    4. Mrs_helm*

      If you can frame it as being better for THEM, it will help with some people. But some will complain no matter what you do.

  6. Anon anony*

    How would you say that the reason that you want to leave a work place is that it’s too social without sounding like you’re antisocial? I’m reserved and quiet and it’s a horrible fit for me. I’m not sure if this should be mentioned in a conversation with a prospective employer or not, so any advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think instead of “too social,” maybe you could mention something more specific like… is it an open office setting, where you have a lot of noise around you? Can you just say it required a lot of extroverted time, and you are an introvert and do your best work when you have some time alone, even though you’re good at being social?

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Maybe some tactful variant of, “There’s so much chatting that it’s kind of hard to get the work done.”

    2. Amber Rose*

      “It’s not a good fit.”

      Be vague. You don’t need to go into details. Jobs sometimes just don’t work out, reasonable employers understand this.

      1. The JMP*

        I think most (good) interviewers aren’t going to accept that, though. I need to know why it wasn’t a good fit to help make sure that this job is a good fit.

        I’d go with something more specific as suggested above.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      I wouldn’t say it like that, but you can say that you want to work at a place that is really work-centered or that you’ve found that a quieter office environment helps you concentrate, maybe? If you’ve been there over two years you probably don’t need to get into why you’re leaving, other than “looking for something new” but if it’s less than that, I think there’s a better way to express this sentiment.

    4. Way to the Dawn*

      Maybe something about the culture there not being a good fit? I am actually in the opposite problem – I am super social and only have 2 coworkers in my current job and it is driving me crazy! I am sure employers will understand.

    5. knork*

      I’ve been in the same boat. I wouldn’t tell an interviewer my coworkers were too social. But maybe explain that a lot of an employee’s reputation and opportunities at your current workplace comes from socializing, and you’re looking for something where your work spoke for itself more.

      1. Midlife Tattoos*

        As a manager, I would read that as you don’t get along with people, and I probably wouldn’t hire you. I don’t think LW has to be super social like her workmates, but having an aversion to being social at all is problematic. Whether we like it or not, we have to work with other people (generally speaking) and it’s critical for a healthy team that people can work collaboratively.

        1. knork*

          How about amend that to “socializing outside of work”? If I heard that, I would think that an employee couldn’t get ahead without doing a lot of happy-hour schmoozing, and it wouldn’t make me think they were antisocial.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            That and not everyone has the budge to do happy hours, nor wants to drink alcohol or sugary beverages.

    6. Camellia*

      What exactly do you mean by “too social”? Is there a lot of after-hour social activities? Or is it stuff happening in the office? Your explanation in interviews may vary.

      For example, I consider my company to be very “social” – monthly potluck lunches, going out for a team lunch on each person’s birthday, having scheduled ‘coffee chats’, and so forth. And my supervisor has monthly ‘not required but actually required by her boss’ after-hours social stuff like meet for drinks or go bowling. So I would not hesitate to mention these activities and say that it is slightly more ‘social’ than I am comfortable with, and if the interviewer’s company is like that, it may not be a good fit for you.

      However, if your definition of ‘very social’ for your office is that people talk too much about what they did that weekend, their kids, etc., then you might want to find another reason for why you want to change jobs, since many people would consider that ‘normally social’.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can it be boiled down to too many distractions in your work environment? This would only work if you’re say in an open plan and you’re trying to find a place with private offices or more of a structure because I’m assuming you work somewhere you can hear your coworkers all the time, which is what you mean by too social?

      Unless you mean they make you do too many social activities and are pulling you around to required happy hours and such?

    8. Triumphant Fox*

      What is it about the social nature of this office that bothers you? Are people chatting all day long? Are they interrupting you constantly? Do they ask you about your life and you just really, really don’t want to share? Is it noisy?

      Social doesn’t tell me much and does come across as a bit misanthropic. I’d want to know how my office would be a good fit for you. Do you need a quiet space? Uninterrupted time? Are you just a really private person? The social parts may be hard to signal – but focusing on your work and needing a professional environment would be signs that you wouldn’t fit in a really laid back, chatty, constantly social group.

      Incidentally my last job was open office, constant chatter and everything moved quickly. We had one person who worked there who was incredibly organized, very hardworking and also utterly at odds with the overall culture. You could tell that everything that made it fun/high stakes/thrilling for me was just so anxiety-inducing and infuriating for her. All of our loose deadlines and last minute fixes that came with client work were basically moral failings in her view. Our lunches and after work drinks were just not how she wanted to spend her time. She ended up taking a remote position and absolutely adores it. She really looked at what she wanted out of a new work environment and is thriving there. I admire her both for how good she was at her job despite it not fitting her personality and how she moved on to something better. Best of luck!

    9. blackcat*

      Can you break down specifics that bother you? Would something like this work?

      “I found my working style was not a great fit for their environment. I thrive when I can have dedicated blocks of time to focus without interruption, but the open office plan/layout/workflow of my employer leads to lots of folks popping in and out of my workspace to talk. I’m looking for an environment where I’ll be able to do my best, which means more formal times to work collaboratively and fewer drop in sessions. Does that sound like a good fit for your organization?”

      If you say something like that, be prepared for them to say no! But you might find a place that says yes.

      1. Safetykats*

        I would really try to avoid anything that sounds like complaining about your current job in interviewing for your new job. I’ve interviewed people who have nothing good to say about their current job, and get pretty energetic about telling me all the bad stuff. It doesn’t make you come across as someone I want to hire – it makes me suspect that you will simply find something to complain about in my org too. It’s much better to answer a question about why you want to leave with a reason the job you’re interviewing for would be awesome – always wanted to do x or work with y or something like that. If you’re not leaving your current job after a very short time (there’s no appearance that you’re leaving just to be leaving) that should be acceptable.

        1. blackcat*

          I do think there’s some space to say, “I work better in Y environment, current company is Z” And I actually think it’s a good screening tool. If the new company also has Z environment, they’ll probably go “Oh, not a good fit” and that will be that. And that’s to everyone’s benefit. I think the key thing is not to say “Z is bad” but rather “Y is best *for me* and Z is just got a good fit.”

        2. Samwise*

          If I ask specifically about why an interviewee wants to leave their current job, and they instead tell me why they want the job they’re interviewing for — I’m going to be annoyed that they didn’t answer my question, wonder why they’re not answering it, and I’m going to ask it *again*. If I still don’t get an answer, that’s a strike against the interviewee and for sure with references, especially their current manager, we’re going to press on this issue.

          I’d advise having a really good way to answer that question — and it doesn’t have to be “my co-workers are too social”.

          Whatever you mean by “social” — have some good questions of your own to ask about that, whether it be open-plan layout, after hours socializing, need for focus, etc. Phrase those in a positive way — what kinds of office layout work best for you/enable you to work efficiently and effectively? ask if they have those. That sort of thing. So that the “socializing” is completely separate from “why are you leaving”.

      2. LJay*

        Yeah, this is one of the few posts in the thread that wouldn’t make me actively concerned about whether I should hire you.

        It outlines the actual work impact, talks about what you do want to see, and doesn’t seem overly negative.

        “It’s too social,” isn’t great in that A. I don’t really know what you mean by that. B. Is that really the only reason you’re going to leave an otherwise good job? C. Why don’t you just set boundaries with your coworkers who are too social?

        Another good answer for me would be something like, “After I accepted the job, I found out that there are expectations for a lot of after-hours socialization with my coworkers. Something like that just doesn’t fit into my current lifestyle. When I say that I’m not available, they tell me that it’s not mandatory, but I’ve still gotten pushback that I’m not a team player. I am a team player! I just like to be able to leave work at work. I’m worried that this is impacting my potential for growth at that company, and so I’m looking for somewhere that’s a better cultural fit – where we all get along and work well as a team during the workday, but aren’t expected to spend all night together at happy hours as well.”

    10. Phy*

      I would say something along the lines of, my introverted nature/desire to focus on work with few distractions made it not a good fit with the company culture.

    11. CM*

      Is there some reason that’s more obviously related to the work? I wouldn’t mention this as a reason you’re leaving at all, even if it’s the primary reason.. Instead I’d say something like, “I’m looking for work more related to [New Role] than my work at [Old Company].” Leave the stuff about being social to questions about what kind of work environment you’re looking for and what the culture is like.

    12. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think I know what you’re talking about, because I’ve been in that situation. It’s not that the workplace is “too social” or that I can’t socialize (I get along with most people, and most people like me!) but that there’s a culture of policing other people’s social interactions. Ex: if you’re distracted when you pass someone in the hallway and don’t say hi enthusiastically enough, you’re unfriendly and cold; or if you can’t stay for Friday happy hour because you’ll miss your train, you’re being antisocial and undedicated; or you don’t like doing karaoke and skits as icebreakers to open monthly trainings, you’re not a team player.

      I think you should really, really think about how and what you don’t like about the workplace culture, not so much so you can tell the new job what you’re looking for, but so YOU know what YOU’RE looking for in a company culture. No one is going to tell you that their company is cliquish, or cult-like, or full of malicious gossips, and you’ll need to be able to ask open ended questions and then read between the lines of their answers.

    13. Alex in Marketing*

      In my opinion, the best way to say that a company was a poor fit is to say something along the lines of: “The culture at [Company] was not a good fit for me. While I was able to achieve [example], [example, [example] there, ultimately, I would prefer working in an environment that doesn’t have open office settings and more quiet work spaces as that is how I produce my best-quality work.”

    15. Indie*

      Be specific so you don’t end up with another mismatch. “It’s a work hard, play hard office; I’m a work hard, go home to cats type’ or “A lot of socialising during the day is kind of distracting to me. I prefer X” It might be worth saying what kind of social interaction you do value as that will help both sides determine fit such as “I like working with coworkers who are passionate about the work (or whatever)”.

  7. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    What’s everyone’s thoughts on people CC-ing boss on everything? company is 100+ people and Boss is VP.

    I personally am not a fan of it and only do it when necessary. I feel like always CC-ing boss/manager/supervisor etc when unnecessary is basically saying “hey you’re messing up and boss needs to know.” Would like to hear others’ thoughts on this.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Drives me crazy. It’s blatantly obvious that they only do it when they don’t trust my word, and that sucks.

      I copy my boss on emails I think she needs to know about, and that’s about it.

    2. Murphy*

      There is someone here that CCs her boss and my boss on all emails to me and it is really weird.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s not good. People shouldn’t do it unless absolutely necessary, because it does signal “you are messing up and boss needs to know,” but also because it clutters up the boss’s email.

      1. Trisha*

        Don’t do it.
        I’ve been on the other side (another manager would always copy the director on everything she sent to me, unless it was to admit she messed up, was late, was doing something sketchy) and it really peeved me. She’d tell people that I intimidated her so she copied the director (never said anything to me or specific reasons just that I was intimidating). It just made me not want to deal with her. And the director and I have worked together for oh…14 years now which she didn’t realize. He also asks for help on planning out some of his vacation stuff (I am a cruise guru) so he regularly chit chats with me and we have a great relationship. She has also backstabbed me a few times to my boss (who is not the director).

        I guess I associate copying managers/directors on everything with being a negative employee. I would watch my back.

    4. beagle mama*

      At my current workplace, that’s the norm, essentially so everyone is up to date and so someone can jump in quickly and escalate if needed without having to be brought up to speed. This was frowned upon at my prior employer, where the attitude was “just get it done, I don’t need to know how”.

      I’m coming around to the benefits of my current situation, as I am not asked for status updates as frequently, but I still have the mindset of “tattling”, especially when it’s a follow up.

      1. Lucy*

        This is where I’m at. Everyone relevant is copied on everything (except very boring technical “was the titrate 1% or 7%? I can’t read my writing”) so everyone knows the status of everything they’re involved in. The grandboss reads almost nothing when it first lands, but his PA is excellent at filtering for him.

        I think when you’re used to it you lose the feeling that it’s tattling, and get irritated when someone is left out of the loop.

        That said, I’m dealing with much smaller organisations/teams. There are rarely more than a dozen recipients in total, so each individual’s inbox is definitely manageable. And as I say the grandboss has an excellent PA …

    5. LCL*

      Usually it’s done for the wrong reasons. If the boss doesn’t need to be involved in that level of decision, either the person CCing is playing gotcha games, or they don’t quite understand when to CC people and when not to.

    6. Miss Muffet*

      It’s definitely a culture thing. I struggled getting my team to do it when I was newer to an organization, and my team didn’t have super-defined work they were doing (administrative assistants, so they mostly did whatever came up each day). I kept telling them it wasn’t a punishment thing but a way for me to get a feel for what they had on their plates, but it was nearly impossible to enforce (you don’t know what you don’t know) and I could never really change the culture that made them feel it was punitive.

      1. Ruby Thursday*

        I’m not surprised they struggled! This isn’t the right way to get a feel for this, the way to do that is to talk to them!

    7. OtterB*

      My rules of thumb are to CC boss if (1) (most important) it falls into the realm of “do not let your boss be surprised,” usually non-routine problems, (2) it’s a non-routine communication with one of our board members (we’re a nonprofit, I have an information/data role and it’s perfectly normal for people to email me with questions. I don’t cc my boss on quick routine answers, but I do on anything more substantive just so he knows what his bosses, the board, are interested in), (3) it’s information or an opportunity that might be of interest to other parts of my organization though not to me.

      As I drafted this I realized that “non-routine” was the operative term for me. So boss may get cc’d if I’ve asked you repeatedly for something and I’m not getting it, or if it’s a major problem boss should know about, or if it’s a significant contact outside the organization. If I were boss, I would not want to be cc’d on lower-level stuff.

    8. The Tin Man*

      CCing boss on everything is a waste of boss’ time. I am with others posting here that I only cc my boss when it is something he is working on directly or needs to be in the loop on in case his boss asks about it.

    9. Ashley*

      I hate it but sadly I have several co-workers that it is the only way to get them to acknowledge an email without repeated phone calls and text messages.

      1. Safetykats*

        If this is the case, you should take that directly to the boss – because what you’re doing by cc-ing the boss isn’t addressing the root of the problem, and I assure you it’s annoying the boss. When I have emails in my inbox that I don’t need to see, it’s not the recipients that look bad – it and the sender.

        I think a lot of people don’t have any idea how many emails a typical manager gets in a day. As a very busy individual contributor I got maybe 30-40; as a manager I easily get over 100. Every day. When you email me to tell me my employee isn’t doing their job, that’s reasonable. When you add to my email load by copying me just to make sure they will do their job, that’s showing me you don’t understand how to effectively deal with the problem.

        1. Ashley*

          I no doubt can not effectively deal with the problem and my boss knows it. I work in a place with no real consequences for not doing your job other then I get fix the mess created by co-worker not doing their job.

    10. Nervous Accountant*

      When I first started a few years ago, a reviewer would cc my boss with any corrections on the tax return. I had a quite emosh response to it. A few years later I was promoted to reviewing and when I was “training” I would CC (or rather BCC) my mgr. but it was only to show them that I was trying my best and if they could critique me. But I didn’t want to get the preparer in trouble so that’s why I BCC. I figured that’s why the first person did it to me but that’s my own conjecture.

    11. CM*

      Ugh, I was just the victim of this yesterday when someone CCed our (also VP-level) boss in an email asking me when something would be done. She could have just asked me! It’s not as if she had already asked and I ignored her and now she had to escalate. I didn’t even know there was a deadline until I saw this email.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        Someone on our team missed a small detail about something. Supervisor of another team emailed everyone on that team and CC’d the VP in admonishing us for missing it. The manager of my team was quite upset that VP was CC’d b/c it wasn’t necessary at all.

        VP also happens to be a micromanager. She doesn’t demand that we CC her but every mistake is an indication of a bigger pattern and anything she doesn’t need to be involved in just opens everyone up to scrutiny and criticism.

    12. Jenny*

      I had a boss who required that and it was awful. Like working under a microscope. I actually transferred to get away from her.

    13. American Ninja Worrier*

      Yeah, most of the time I’d consider this an office version of snitch tagging. It tends to imply that you don’t trust the recipient to handle your request on their own, or even that you’re trying to get them in trouble. It also, I would think, annoy the heck out of the VP if they’re not a micromanager and don’t really need to be on the email.

      I’m sure office culture will affect what people think is and isn’t something to loop a supervisor in on, but in general I think it’s best to keep it to a minimum. If I ever do CC someone’s boss, I like to throw in a sentence that clarifies why I’m doing that like “Claire, this is just FYI” or “CCing Lauren so she’ll have a record of this,” or whatever the case may be. In fact, a lot of times if I’m on the fence about CCing I’ll IM someone and ask what they’d prefer.

    14. Mayor of Munchkinland*

      My boss mandates it because she has severe control issues (a whole different issue).

      I’m sure to people on other teams in the company I look like a spineless sycophant but it’s not worth the hell I get when I don’t CC her.
      Not that I don’t get hell when I do.

    16. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

      Thank you everyone for the gut check. I know from reading here that “tattling”isn’t really a thing but this was bugging me and wanted to bounce it off the people here.

    17. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My practice is to do as my manager requests. I worked for many years for micromanagers who wanted to be copied on *EVERYTHING*. I now work for someone who has requested she only be copied on emails where she needs to make a decision, or cover for me if there’s a vacation scheduled…and it’s taken me a year to remember to leave her off!
      By the way, I made a conscious decision to let it slide when someone else is copying MY boss on everything…after all, they may have been working for micromanagers for years. If they sound annoyed I’ll ask my manager if she has background that I need to address. If SHE sounds annoyed, I’ll ask if she wants me to ask them to leave her off.

    18. Amethystmoon*

      I dislike it but in some companies, it is the norm. It to me seems like a form of tattling. If you can’t work things out with your coworker, then you may have to eventually tell your boss, but you should first try to work things out with the coworker.

    19. LGC*

      I’ve become much less of a fan of it as I matured. When I started in my current position, it was like, “Oh, Jane should know that x is a problem because if I were the boss, I’d want to know any problems!”

      Then I got promoted and Jane got promoted (she’s the operations manager for our entire division, meaning she’s in charge of production for four job sites) and then I realized a bunch of things:

      1) Jane deals with a ton of things – essentially, she has a division with 200 employees to deal with. She manages a lot of stuff, and she tends to be hands on (at times, to my chagrin). I feel like I get a fair amount of email a lot of days (about 40-50 messages per day, although not all of them are things I personally have to respond to). She probably gets many times that.
      2) If I include Jane in something, just that action signals that it’s something major (despite whatever I say). Basically, I’d CC my boss (or one of my coworkers would), it’d become this huge kerfuffle, and I’d be more mad about the resulting #drama than the original problem.
      3) My boss is more addicted to her email than I am, which I didn’t think was possible. So I’d be in the office on a Saturday, email her something, and then she would immediately respond from her daughter’s softball game.

      (And if she’s reading this: on that last note, please stop doing that. Whatever BS I’m dealing with can wait until Monday. And if it can’t, that’s what I have your cell phone for.)

      That said, there are some bosses that do want to be CCed on a lot of things. I think that is terrible and they should go to therapy and unpack why they have this compulsion to have their inboxes become a warzone, but as an employee I’d go along with it.

    20. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I have someone who is a C-level big boss and he cc’s my Big Big Boss with every little thing even he knows when he is wrong. I do not feel that this is appropriate. I started calling him out on it. I totally agree that “hey you;re messing up and boss needs to know”. The Big Big Boss doesn’t stop it and let’s it perpetuate. So, I am looking for new opportunities. Remember, it will continue unless your Boss stops it and tells them to manage it directly.

  8. Transfer Salary*

    I’m in talks to transfer within the same company from a very high COL city (Emerald City) to a moderate COL city (Kansas). Here’s all the info I’ve gathered to come up with a salary number:
    (-) According to online cost of living comparisons, Kansas’ COL is 30% less than Emerald City. (I am not willing to take a 30% pay cut, as I know my pay would not get raised 30% if I ever move back to Emerald City)
    (=) Online research says that salaries for jobs like mine (including at my company) in Kansas are within $2000 of what I make in Emerald City
    (-) Taxes are lower in Kansas than in Emerald City
    (+) I currently get paid overtime in Emerald City ($2500 last year); I don’t anticipate nearly as much (if any) OT in Kansas
    (+) My company typically adjusts everyone’s salary in the summer; I would start in April/May so would not get a raise this year and would be locking in my pay for the next year and a half

    I’ve crunched numbers and factored in all that info: I’d like to ask for my Emerald City (or even 1-2% more).

    Has anyone negotiated salary when transferring? Any tips?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      If your company’s salaries in Kansas are within $2,000 of your current salary, I think you can ask to stay at your current salary. A raise to move to a much lower COL location feels like a stretch, even given the timing that would delay your next raise for a year.

      1. CM*

        I think 1-2% is reasonable to ask for. That’s not much and if you ask for a raise, they’re more likely to at least keep you at your current salary. (This is a negotiation technique called anchoring — the first person to name a number sets expectations that the other person feels pressure to meet. So if they’re thinking of giving you a pay cut and you ask for a raise, then a pay cut may seem insulting so they’ll keep you at status quo.)

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Sure. Anchoring is a useful technique. But, tbh, if an employee asked for a raise while moving from (for example) San Francisco to Minneapolis I would be pretty taken aback.

    2. Bibliovore*

      I negotiated for my Emerald City salary in my transfer to Midwest lower cost of living location.
      Yes it was more than most of the people that level were making but I made a case for my expertise in the content area, my unique work background and my managerial experience as well as ability to work in “challenging” environments.
      Salary compression is a non-issue given those attributes.
      I received most of what I asked for and a six month review and increase then.
      Good luck.

    3. blackcat*

      No advice but I was really puzzled why you gave one Fake Place and one Real Place and then I was like “Ohhhhhh.” On point analogy.

      3. Liz*

        As a Kansan, I got this reference IMMEDIATELY, and was like “well, we have emerald cities, too!!!!” lol

    4. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I did this when I moved from San Jose, CA to Alabama. I did take a COL decrease but I also cut base hours by the same percentage. I took about a 12% decrease in pay but I also only worked about 35 hours per week. I was salaried (I am in a different job now). Yes, there were weeks when I worked more than the 35 hours but my normal work week was only 35 hours.

    5. Ree*

      So, as someone who lives in Kansas and moved here from Southern California, it is not as cheap as people think it is – income taxes are lower than some states, but if you’re coming from Seattle(Emerald City?) then your taxes are going to go UP and depending on the county/city, sales taxes can be 8-10%+. Also, Kansas is a “no fault” state so car insurance can be higher and vehicle registration is high, IMO. I spent less on car registration in California than I have in Kansas(also, every county is different, Wyandotte County is supposed to have the highest vehicle registrations in the state and it’s a tiny county located north of “the most expensive county in Kansas,” Johnson County)
      Property taxes can be high too, depending on your county.
      Food costs are comparable to pretty much anywhere else – meat is less but fruit/vegetables are higher
      What’s cheaper? Generally housing costs but that is subjective to the area you live in! Some parts of Kansas(Johnson County, Riley County) can be pricey and inventory is limited, both in rentals and in buying inventory.
      Basically, don’t take TOO much of a pay cut – it’s not THAT cheap in this flyover state!

      1. Madame Secretary*

        The OP was not using Emerald City and Kansas in the literal sense, I’m pretty sure, but I could be wrong. I take it he/she’s referencing Wizard of Oz places. I think they meant moving from Big Fancy City with high COL to a Modest Midwest Town with lower COL. But fwiw, i agree with everything you say!

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, the post is still fairly accurate. The Midwest has a reputation for being cheaper, and it is compared to Seattle or San Francisco. But that is not necessarily true of everything, as wages are also lower and have not caught up with increases in cost of living that apply everywhere.

      2. edj3*

        All of this. I live in the Kansas City metro area on the Kansas side. Our property taxes are higher than what I paid in Boston, I need more gas because everything is far away (we have land for days here) and public transportation is non-existent.

        If you are buying a house, Ree is correct–you will pay a lot more for the homes in good school districts, and have a much harder time selling if you bought in a not-good school district.

        If you’re moving to the KC metro area and have questions, post them here if you like.

      3. KR*

        Yes! My friends spouse is a Kansas resident and I was shocked at how high his taxes were. There are a lot of them too.

      4. Me*

        As of when I rented a car 2 years ago in San Diego, CA is a no fault car insurance state. Unless Enterprise lied to me. No worries for me as I’m in MD and it’s already that so I didn’t need additional coverage.

        That said, car insurance costs are really complicated beyond just the no fault issue. Definitely check on the difference in rates, but its really unfortunately not as easy (transparent would be a better word) as no fault states are higher.

    6. Transfer Salary*

      The places aren’t literally Emerald City (Seattle) and Kansas, and the COL difference isn’t quite as stark, but the point stands.
      Thanks for all the advice!

    7. Liz*

      Haven’t negotiated salary, but as a Kansan myself, just know “Kansas” is not all the same and COL / taxes vary pretty widely.

      If you’re comfortable, can you tell me the town/city? I might be able to give you more info on COL in terms of rent / buying a house, sales tax rates. (The city I’m in has higher sales tax than the OC and Beverly Hills. Literally.) Depending on where you’re going, I’d be happy to give you info on cool stuff to do and get used to the area!

      1. Transfer Salary*

        That’s such a nice offer (midwestern charm, I guess?) but I was using Kansas as a metaphor.

    8. just a random teacher*

      I have no advice on salary negotiation, but on taxes make sure you’ve looked into differing tax structures in the two locations and not just overall tax burdens for some kind of “average person” who may not be you.

      For example, if moving from someplace that gets most of its taxes from sales taxes to one that gets most of its taxes from income tax, it will matter a lot where your income fits in the tax brackets and you may not be used to factoring that in. (My cousin moved from a no income tax state to a high income tax state, and didn’t really think about how much of a difference that would make for someone making as much as she was in her high-level job versus the “average person” that a comparison site might use.)

      1. Lilith*

        Oh gosh I really thought you were talking about Kansas so I was going to warn you that IS taxes groceries (all food items) too. But nevermind!

    9. Det. Charles Boyle*

      Do you know for sure that they’d ask you to reduce your salary if you moved? Employees at the company I work for move around the country all the time and keep their same salary (if the job title stays the same).

  9. how to make the jump out of detail-oriented roles*

    I am a mid 30’s woman and it seems like I can’t quite get myself out of the types of roles where I’m responsible for tracking things on spreadsheets or checking small things off of other people’s lists. My ADHD and dyslexia makes me ill suited to this type of task; I am prone to careless typos and number inversions, but I understood that the beginning of my career would probably involve this type of work with titles like “assistant” or “coordinator” and that I would need to work hard to push through. I thought if I could be promoted after a few years, I could get up into people management or project planning, which I’m better at.

    However, here I am still getting a fair amount of this type of work in my newest role. Of course I understand that every type of job has details involved, but I really need to get a job where this isn’t how the main thrust of how I’m evaluated. I’ve had many bosses who were bad at this kind of thing and still successful – they just hired young admin women to handle it for them. Did anybody find that this happened naturally as they got into leadership? Or did you have to consciously steer your career in this direction, and if so, how did you go about that? Did you eventually get out of the all little details type jobs?

    1. epi*

      Honestly, the way I got out for good was by going to grad school and becoming qualified in something quite technical that was related to my old jobs. I was a research coordinator, now I’m an epidemiologist. While it can definitely still happen as a woman or someone from another group that is underrepresented in more rewarding roles, people are less inclined to waste your time (and their money) on administrative stuff if you are a technical expert. The weirder your thing is, the better, so that people truly have nowhere else to turn for skill X if they eat up half your week on organizing someone’s calendar.

      For the jobs I have had along the way, I was able to reduce the amount of administrative work by hiding or deemphasizing my experience in it. Emphasize the parts of your job that were more related to what you want to be doing. Remove tasks you never want to do again or that scream “assistant” from your resume, or condense them into a single bullet point. Use the rest of the space for accomplishments related to what you actually want to be doing.

      Talk to your boss about this too. Make sure they know what your goals are, and keep track of how much of your time is spent on the administrative tasks you are trying to shed. In the future, as you hopefully start to gain responsibilities that are more in line with your goals, you’ll know from the start if these low level tasks are becoming a distraction.

      1. Lora*

        “people are less inclined to waste your time (and their money) on administrative stuff if you are a technical expert”

        +1. I’m finally getting taken off the most-despised part of my job when the very last project is wrapped up in a few months, because I am the Weird Technical Expert and they need me to be a nerd, not be a secretary.

    2. Ptarmigan*

      Every industry is different, but here in mortgages, I can’t think of anyone at any level whose job doesn’t involve this. “Young admin women” seem to have gone the way of the dodo bird, at least around here.

      1. OP*

        I totally acknowledge that there are some fields, like law or finance stuff, that would always have a lot of this right up to the top level. Fortunately I’m not in one of those fields (for obvious reasons) or I would really be doomed.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Usually people who can get away from those tasks are moved up despite their pitfalls only due to the luck of knowing someone who will overlook it or who isn’t necessarily aware of the errors/issues. Also charisma and luck goes a long way in careers I’ve seen over the years.

      Yikes yikes yikes @ “just hired young admin women” please rethink that if you are managing people in the future, as HR I just hot-potato’ed at that line.

      My entire career has been driven by luck and greasing the right wheels in the end, find the right people who want to help you excel and not just see you as a number or cog in the machine.

      2. Super Dee Duper Anon*

        I was in a very similar position as the OP until my current job, and I honestly, it did take a lot of luck to get out/move up.

        First stroke of luck – a manager (that I was to support as an admin) got hired who really paid attention. He saw that while yes, as an admin, I occasionally forgot to include someone on an invite or missed a typo or inverted a number, I did actually excel at any responsibilities that used skills that the higher level/more substantive/more big picture rather than tiny detail work did or that required a thorough understanding of the concepts/principles that guide our industry (things like designing user-friendly processes or being able to take a big picture idea and break it into down into the individual steps). So he started giving me more substantive work, which I used pad my resume (he couldn’t promote me because of internal political “reasons”, but he was upfront about it and told me he’d do whatever he could to help me get that sort of role outside of the company).

        On my resume I heavily emphasized the bigger picture work and de-emphasized the admin work. I basically tried to make it look like I was only an admin in title and was already doing that big picture work (which I was – just not exactly 100% of the time). That started getting me traction with big picture work roles, but the second stroke of luck was applying for a role that would report to someone with a pretty non-traditional background/career path himself. He was willing to look past my title and really questioned me about the big-picture responsibilities. He realized that I really did understand that type of work and took a chance on me.

        So yeah, I very much cosign on finding the right people who will look more deeply or who will actually pay attention to the types of things you’re good at (instead of writing you off as an airhead after the first very basic mistake). Its hard, but they’re out there.

        1. OP*

          Thank you for this! Yes, I think finding the right people to help you is probably right, and that may just take patience.

    4. Work the Issue*

      Nearly every position in an office environment (even the higher up mucky-mucks) are spending at least some of their time tracking their activities and checking off lists. I’ve been in many different roles and every single one had me opening a spreadsheet at least once a day. Even my art heavy, graphic design work required me to track client payments and maintain a publishing schedule. It is part of being in an organized office at any level.

      It may be a matter of developing systems and strategies that DO work for you. If you know that this is going to be a part of your work, figure out which tools and systems work best for you. Maybe you work better on a program that graphically illustrates tasks like Trello or Wunderlist?

      What about pursuing a career that lets you work with your hands? Or a role where your time is already managed for you?

    5. 867-5309*

      Epi’s point of going back to school is a good one – or you could earn a certification, which would be far less expensive. However, I’m not sure project planning is a fit if attention to detail isn’t your strong suit. Even if you move into people management, there’s an expectation that you’re still doing work related to the area of expertise.

      As an example: I’m in marketing. Even when I run a team, I’m still expected to write, etc. Depending on your field, it just might not be feasible to get away from the work that isn’t your strong suit. Can you share what kind of work/function/field you do?

    6. Drk*

      I’m in a job that doesn’t quite parallel what you’re talking about here, but I consciously steer my career to avoid the tracking / spreadsheets / checking off things work. It is possible for me because I am in a highly specialized role that requires extensive education rather than on-the-job promotions, but I still have to consciously avoid the detail-oriented work, and there are career advancement opportunities that I won’t even consider as a result.

      That said, there are “assistants” and “coordinators” that I work with who have to do detailed tracking work. From what I’ve seen, they get beyond (or partially beyond) it by being good at it, and / or demonstrating vision, and / or figuring out a way to split their roles so that you have the big picture parts and someone else is hired to do the tracking. Another way someone I know in a different industry achieved this is by moving to a company with a much small team, where she is essentially the person doing her role, so there is no one to track or check off things for.

    7. wafflesfriendswork*

      I have nothing but solidarity to offer–I could have easily written this. Currently in admin hell and working on getting my ADHD treated, but also trying to figure out how on earth I can move into something else when people seem to love me as an assistant (I’m easy enough to work with that I must seem more capable than I am, but it’s absolute misery trying to keep all of the plates spinning).

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah as always I’m able to skate by being personable and having good social skills (and of course I really do try to concentrate and not make these errors).

        1. Kat in VA*

          Holy cow, I thought I was the only one who did this. I’m in an EA role for four execs and the amount of balls I drop, mistakes I make, and screwups I do…I’d probably fire me. But I have a reputation for being a good ear (“People tell me things” is my mantra), I will drop everything and do everything if someone needs it, and I have a huge work ethic (reliable, dependable, cheerful, yada, yada). I’m getting better at slowing down and double checking, but I honestly think if I didn’t have the stellar soft skills, I would have been out on my butt a long time ago.

      2. TheOtherLiz*

        Same same. Some things that have worked for me: 1, Letting my manager know that some mundane regular admin tasks are NOT my strength and asking what I can offload or skip, and if necessary starting to talk about it as an accommodation; 2, actually listing these tasks in my timesheet and not just saying “Oh and of course the expense report” but saying “next week I NEED to file my expense report because if I don’t, it’ll be too late to be reimbursed for what I spent – other things have gotten in the way and I haven’t successfully made this happen yet.” It becomes invisible work to our bosses and if we don’t name it to them, it can become invisible to US, and while it might take little motivation and brainpower for neurotypical folks, for those of us with ADD it can be the WORST and it sits there on my to do list week after week like a growing shame monster. 3, someone in my department started weekly “Data Parties” for us to hop on video chat together while we catch up with our data entry, the worst part of the job. they started it because NOBODY was doing it, on time or otherwise, and I love creating a designated time and space for it, making it more bearable with some company, having the person there who I might need to ask questions abut it, and then GETTING. IT. DONE.

    8. JR*

      A few thoughts: 1) In my experience (strategy and general management roles), yes, the work gets less detailed-oriented over time, as more junior people are expected to be the ones deep in the weeds on data analysis, etc. 2) The said, super importantly, I absolutely still need to have high attention to detail to make sure that the analysis is right. But as I get more senior, I do more big picture strategy and relationship management and less Excel, desk research, etc. 3) Of course, I’m still doing some of the latter at times, plus annoying things like billing and expense tracking and so on. 4) I’ve been surprised at the fact that it’s somewhat hard for me to pass that work on to the more junior people, even though I don’t enjoy it. That’s partly a control thing about wanting it done right, but mostly, I feel bad because I don’t like the work, so I assume they don’t either! And in my context, everyone is busy. But a former direct report had a great way of thinking about it – I should enthusiastically pass on the stuff that is easy/rote for me but a development opportunity for more junior staff, so that I can concentrate on the stuff that’s a growth opportunity for me. Another way of thinking about it is that I need to give them the stuff they’re able to do so I can focus on the stuff that only I can do. I say all this so that you’re aware of the possibility, so when you get to the point where there’s someone to pass that work along to, you actually do it!

  10. Amber Rose*

    OK, help me out here: salary VS not salary in Canada. Did I get screwed when they switched me to salary? I feel like I lost all the benefits of being hourly and got none of the ones from salary, since I’ll still get docked pay if I leave early or whatever, but now the rules for overtime mean I get less. The only benefit is always knowing what my pay will be, but even that’s kind of meh since it was nice to have the occasional giant, 96 hour paycheck. Now when I work a 96 hour pay period I actually get paid less than I would have.

    Also if anyone knows a good exorcist, I think we’ve determined that our computers, phones and excessive ceiling failures are probably caused by demons or ghosts or something. This week has been a shitshow.

    1. Ms.Vader*

      I’m in Canada too. What do you mean you get less? Do you get the same benefits, time off, etc?

      Unfortunately the loss of OT is something a lot of people do use to decide against going into salaried roles. It’s defi a hard decision.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Same benefits, but the way over time works is that hourly folk get overtime for anything over 8 hours in a day, while salary folk have to hit more than 44 hours in a week. Basically, you have to work longer to qualify. And I don’t get the random huge paychecks anymore, since we’re paid semi-monthly rather than bi-weekly.

        1. Ms.Vader*

          Sorry I think I misread your original post – I assumed with a new salaried position it meant you would have also had an increase in benefits but that doesnt’ sound like the case. In that case, it doesn’t sound like being salaried is any benefit to you. I’m sorry that is how it has worked out. Is there a chance of getting back to hourly?

    3. Camellia*

      I thought that if you are salaried and work any part of a week, they can’t dock you if you leave early (assuming less than a half-day), and no pay for overtime.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ll be honest [not in Canada but can weigh in on salary vs hourly part], it’s never worth it unless you’re an executive or high ranking highly compensated.

      If you want to pay me 100k+ and then toss crazy hours at me, okay let’s go. I had that happen at 50k awhile back and doing the math, I was making less than $20 an hour given all the work I had to put into it.

      I want to crawl under my desk and hide with snacks over the fact people can be salaried at so little and accept it because “well I don’t have to punch a clock tho, I’m in such a great luxurious place now!” Noooooo, I want all the overtime compensation for those longer weeks if I’m making working class wages.

    5. Middle School Teacher*

      I believe you’re in AB so your first stop needs to be the AB Labour website. I’ve also had to call them in the past and they’ve been very helpful.

    6. scattol*

      Labour laws are provincial jurisdiction (unless you are a federal gvt employee) so you need to go your province’s website and see what applies to you. They vary from one province to the next.

      1. mkt*

        Yes, most likely provincial jurisdiction.

        But note that federal jurisdiction is not just for fed gov’t, but can also apply for companies in specific industries – banks, telecom, rail/air/x-province transport, etc.

    7. quirkypants*

      Did you have benefits while you were hourly? Then, yes, I suppose there’s very little financial benefit to change to salaried.

      Depending on the industry (or an individual company), though, it can be difficult to progress past a certain point as an hourly worker. I think your best bet is to talk to your boss. I typically work more than 35/40 hours but working 96 hours while on salary is just ridiculous. In my industry 60+ hour work weeks can be normal when it’s crunch time but (a) it shouldn’t be on-going and (b) it should never approach 96.

    8. Anne*

      Being salaried in Canada is different than being salaried in the US, in that it’s not tied so closely with being exempt/not exempt from overtime. Typically if you’re salaried but overtime eligible, then in my experience your employer still expects you to track your time – and if they have to pay you more than 40 hours for working more than 40 hours, they’ll also want to pay you less if you work less.

      44 hours suggests you’re either in Alberta or Ontario. Whether paying you overtime after 44 hours/week only is correct will vary depending on which province you’re in, and whether you meet your province’s actual overtime exemption (unless you’re in a federally regulated industry). Check your province’s Employment Standards FAQ sheet to verify what rules apply to you – Google “Province employment standards”, they’re all online, and you can call them up anonymously to ask a ‘hypothetical’ question if the website doesn’t provide the info you’re looking for.

  11. The Tin Man*

    I wanted to share a win and a thank you from the post about succeeding at work when not neurotypical! I am not diagnosed but definitely have some thing in common with ADD-diagnosed folks and making the matrix of Important/Less Important and Urgent/Not Urgent has helped me keep my head on straight at work and fewer things have been falling through the cracks. I still need to be vigilant and maybe it won’t be my method forever but I am liking it right now. Picture of my board: https://i.imgur.com/kAVQHvF.jpg

    I also made a digital version on Google Sheets for my personal life and that has been good too. I long have had Evernote but never used it. I made a shortcut to the Sheet on my phone and I have actually been using it!

    2. LaDeeDa*

      That’s awesome! I missed that discussion I think, I love this! I teach this method, and a couple of others to my new grads– to help them get started off right. I am so glad you found something that is helping.

      1. The Tin Man*

        You! I had read about it before but your post reminded me of it and that led me to realize it would be perfect for my situation! Thank you specifically, Zephy!

    4. ElspethGC*

      Ooh! Thank you for this visual.

      I’m about to start the process of attempting to get an ADHD (inattentive type) diagnosis as a twenty-year-old, and I’m already running into the good ol’ assumptions that as a student I’m just trying to get a diagnosis for the stimulant prescription. I don’t want meds! I want coping mechanisms! Even if I don’t get a diagnosis, though, I suspect a lot of the inattentive ADD coping mechanisms will mesh well with my brain, so I’m definitely going to mock up something like this when I get home tonight.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        It’s good you’re looking for the coping mechanisms! Those meds are not the magic pills I want them to be. Fix me, meds! (“No,” say the meds, barely looking up from their newspaper.)

    5. What the What*

      This is genius! Thanks for sharing the visual, too. I have a lot of focus/sensory issues that make managing my home and work lives extra challenging. I have a weekly chart system that I use but I like your sticky note whiteboard method much better. Thanks.

  12. AnonymousJobSeeker*

    Hi, I saw a marketing job that looks like a really good fit for me. In the long list of job duties/qualifications, one line says “Adobe Design and Microsoft Suite” and “write and design materials”, but then it asks for a portfolio in addition to Cover letter and resume. I am really torn because I feel like I am a good fit for the job, except I do not have enough Graphic Design experience to create a Portfolio. (I’ve used Adobe Design/Advanced Photoshop in the past, but not for quite a few years, I’d need a refresher.) A “Bachelor’s Degree” (no field specified) is also listed as requirement.

    Should I self-select out and not spend time or submit anyway, as has been suggested, when you are a strong (but not perfect fit)?

    1. Anonysand*

      Submit it anyway. If you have the time, create a few pieces with the skills you do have and combine those with any other materials (including written pieces). Those design requirements might be a minimal need- I work in marketing and while I know the basics of Adobe design suite, I really only ever need it to crop/color correct/add text because we have dedicated graphic designers that do the heavy lifting. It doesn’t hurt to throw your hat into the ring if you feel like you are a good fit otherwise. Good luck!

      1. AnonymousJobSeeker*

        Thanks – that is what I am wondering also, if it’s more like what you say-basic cropping, editing, layering I can do and would certainly put the time in on Adobe to re-learn the program. But if it’s more like a “core requirement” as Ali G says below – then I don’t want to waste their time (or make myself look like I cannot read a job description.)

        1. Anonysand*

          I think that’s really going to come down to and depend on the specific job itself. While my job is in marketing and it listed Adobe Creative Suite as a requirement, my job doesn’t utilize it all that often aside from what I mentioned above. Is the position design-based, like a web or graphic designer/art director/creative director or the like? Or is it something more like a Social Media Manager/content creator/web writer/etc that will utilize designs but not necessarily create them? I think that’s where you’ll find the answer.

    3. Ali G*

      If the application requires a portfolio and you don’t have one, that’s not really the same thing as not being a “perfect” fit. That’s you not having a core requirement to apply. Sorry.

    4. Small but Fierce*

      Would you be able to provide more context? I’m in marketing and while I’m competent with Adobe Creative Suite, I do not necessarily have a portfolio readily available for these types of job listings. Given the large range of marketing roles, it is difficult to give you specific advice based on this post.

      Are they looking for a graphic designer who can create customized logos and graphics from scratch? That’s probably not going to be a great fit.

      Are they looking for a communications person who can put together attractive documents and slide decks? If you’re a whiz at Microsoft Office, you should be able to get by without touching Adobe products. I’ve successfully created and submitted portfolios of design work made purely in Microsoft products before, but the roles weren’t graphics heavy.

      It’s also worth repeating that people receive roles they aren’t 100% qualified for every day. I actually learned InDesign in my first job, even though it was a requirement.

      1. AnonymousJobSeeker*

        My impression is that they probably want someone who can do some program layouts (performing arts, so think theater programs/concert programs). (Maybe there are even templates? Where you drop the appropriate photos, etc.?), but it sounds like there is an equal amount of social media management, emailing customers (“our next show is…”) and even working in the ticket office (as needed). Of course I don’t know, but my guess would be they do not need customized logos from scratch; I can see them wanting to use production photos in the program/media online (but I also know that the head of marketing is a professional photographer, so maybe that person does the in-house photography?) (Would love to pick up some skills like InDesign, etc. on a job!)

        But honestly I don’t know. Unfortunately i do not know anyone (or as far as I can tell, know anyone who knows anyone) to ask “hey, do you know how design heavy this really is?”.

        Thanks for your input/questions.

        1. Small but Fierce*

          Without more information, it sounds like they need someone that can do attractive layout work and write well. For similar roles, I provided past proposals and flyers I created at my jobs. Do you have any work samples that would showcase your writing and document layout work (in Word or whatever program you’re comfortable with)?

          Also, if you have any samples of their current programs or flyers, that would help you determine the degree of graphic ability they’re looking for. Creating document layouts with pictures in Word is pretty common – just a bit more tedious than if you were using InDesign or Illustrator.

          And good luck! I’d love a role like that at a theater, but I’ve only managed to be in boring industries so far.

        2. Alex in Marketing*

          This is possibly something you can ask about should you get a first-round phone screen/interview. I have found that at the very least designing an attractive resume (you can even use Canva) will get you pretty far. Sometimes with marketing jobs, what they really want is a good eye for design who they are willing to help build skills or send to training. Other times, they want solid skills in InDesign, PhotoShop, and Illustrator, especially if they are bringing in a marketer with a rebrand in mind.

          Putting together programs can be quite technical work in Adobe programs, especially if themes/colors/graphics requirements vary from show to show, as I assume they would for this type of job.

          If you are looking for marketing jobs that typically fall on the creative side of marketing, especially specialist/coordinator positions in small companies that do not have a graphic designer or a full-on branding/design department, it is pretty important to have at the very least basics of InDesign and PhotoShop down.

          Local colleges (at least in my city) offer design courses even over the summer. I would suggest looking into taking one as design skills in Adobe products are highly sought after for marketing jobs and many jobs do require you to at least know the basics.

          1. Alex in Marketing*

            I should add: If they are looking for a portfolio, they are definitely looking for someone with really solid skills in Adobe.

        3. Samwise*

          Well, take a look at their website and see what sorts of marketing they have been doing. Can you do that? Can you do better? Put together a portfolio of the kinds of things you think they need [event programs and so on], plus perhaps some plans for managing social media, customer outreach, with say some templates for those [for instance, I make template messages for communication with students, faculty, parents and have a timeline and follow-up process for all of those]. I’m not in marketing, so take all of this with a cup or two or salt…

    5. esra*

      As someone who is involved in a lot of hiring for marketing positions: if we ask for a portfolio and you don’t provide one, that’s basically the end of your application. I’d follow the suggestions to put a few pieces together if you want to apply.

  13. Anonysand*

    So I just got word that I’m approved to go to my first-ever industry conference in July, and I’m really excited. However, it is across the country and it looks like I will be traveling alone. For information: I’m a 27 y/0 female, and the thought of traveling to an unfamiliar city by myself is more than a little intimidating, especially as an introvert and someone with anxiety. I’ve been to at least a dozen of other conferences with previous jobs, but a lot is riding on this one since it’s my first specialized conference in my chosen field. Does anyone have any tips or tricks on how to best manage the travel-anxiety and how to maximize the experience at the conference as an introvert?

    1. Janet Snakehole*

      I’m a list maker, so I will make lists of everything. What to pack, my schedule, my goals or objectives for the conference, places to eat within walking distance, whatever.
      Bring any chargers with you, especially your phone so you can look up directions if you get turned around. Also, scout out plug locations.
      If you will be doing any walking outside, bring sunscreen!
      Take time to step away from activities and breathe for a minute if you need to.

      And this one isn’t really specific to business travel, but I find it eases my mind quite a bit. If you are checking luggage, pack extra socks, underwear, a toothbrush and maybe a cardigan or something professional-ish in your carry on just in case your luggage gets lost.

    2. BadWolf*

      Airline travel doesn’t stress me much alone — traveling around a different place is what causes me stress.

      Can you prebook almost everything (traveling to the airport, to the hotel, to the conference, etc)? There is a risk if you flight is delayed and schedules get messed up, but with online booking options, some transfers are pretty flexible.

      Can you get your hotel at the conference site or in easy (safe) walking distance? Or are you driving? If driving, can you reserve parking spots ahead of time? If you’ll be using taxis or rideshares for the first time, maybe take a practice trip or two in your hometown?

      Is this a conference where you are supposed to meet with certain people? Or can you just give yourself permission to pick up some to-go dinner food and hunker down in your hotel to recharge every night?

      As far as personal safety, pack light so you can carry your luggage without a lot of hassle. Backpack, small luggage. If your job will allow, I would say have your arrival/departure times be not super late — arriving the night before at 8PM (or earlier) vs 11PM or midnight.

    3. La Framboise*

      As an introvert, although older than you and I just don’t give a d*mn anymore, I like to pretend that I am an extrovert, and that helps me to do what I need to do- talk to strangers and network mainly. Also, walk like you know where you’re going, don’t stare into a device too much and ignore your surroundings, and take time to make notes. And eat well and take time for yourself. Hth!

      1. LKW*

        I’m an introvert. I get anxiety. This should not be something that stops you from doing this.
        1. Give yourself time to get there early and orient. Structure your travel so that you’re not rushed to be at the hotel/conference immediately. Go the afternoon or night before.
        2. You’re going cross country not to a remote village. You’ll be able to get almost anything you forget.
        3. Ask for help if you need it. Most people want to be helpful.

    4. Daphne*

      I find it helps to look at maps and floor plans of stations/conference centres so you get an idea of how to get around! I think this will be a great experience for you. Research some of the panels and speakers so if you can catch a word with fellow conference-goers, you can talk confidently about the day!

      1. Annie Moose*

        In addition, if you’re flying, airport floorplans are generally available! Even if you don’t know your gate numbers ahead of time, it could ease your mind to know the rough layout before you get there (and then once you get your gate number, you’ll have a good idea where it is).

        1. Cog in the Machine*

          Also if you’re flying, the airlines will generally have the layouts with gate groupings of US hub airpots hiding in the various booklets/magazines in the seat backs.

    5. JR*

      Print out all of your travel and conference booking information. If your company books through a travel agent, also print out their contact info. Keep this all in a folder in your carry on bag or purse. It makes it easy to reference things if you have terrible cell signal or can’t connect to wifi or don’t want to spend too much time scrolling through your inbox trying to find the right email.

      I do well with maps, so I like to spend some time on google maps before I travel to get a sense of where the airport is in relation to the hotel and conference space, estimate travel times, scope out food options, etc.

      Ask if any of your coworkers have traveled to this conference or city before. They might have helpful recommendations.

      1. Anonysand*

        Luckily I’ve traveled to the city in question before for other conferences and conventions (four times, if my count is correct), but I’ve never been to this specific area of the city or the hotel/conference center in question, let alone by myself. I’ve already been scoping out maps to figure out how to get from the airport to the hotel, but I like your idea to take printed copies of the maps and confirmation documents just in case.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          The hotel probably can tell you how to get there from the airport. If it’s close, they likely have a shuttle. If farther, they likely can give you some guidance on what most people do.

    6. Maya Elena*

      I love traveling alone, getting to the airport with time to spare, eating and people-watching, doing small good deeds – being nice to the security people, letting that poor frazzled mom with kids go in front of you in line – reading, watching take-off and landing from the window.

      If possible, I wouldn’t bank on using travel time for conference prep (unless it’s a very long flight) because you don’t know how well the little table will accommodate your laptop or if some turbulence ruins your handwriting.

      For the strange city, prep some in advance. Find out whether Ubers can pick up at the airport, and where (a special location?) or where you’d pick up the rental car. If you find yourself worrying about where the taxi/Uber is taking you, and GPS doesn’t suffice, look up the major routes in the area in advance and make sure you’re going in the correct general direction. Once there, either you’ll be stuck in a podunk area with nothing around but highway, hotel, and the local restaurant – in which case, no problems except boredom – or in a nice downtown. There you can do advance prep on what to do in the evenings or afternoons off (when it’s talks you don’t need to go to, for instance), and you can probably get a free downtown map from the hotel, plus suggestions on where to eat, get drinks, go dancing, etc.
      Good luck on your trip!

      1. BadWolf*

        Oh yes, it’s much easier to feel relaxed when you’re only wrangling yourself through the airport. You can be the island of chill between angry couple and sleep deprived parents trying to get their kids to the plane in one piece.

        Since you don’t leave until July — if you’re in the US, having TSA Precheck is pretty handy. There is a cost and paperwork and time, but it saved my bacon at least once in getting through security quickly. It also (usually) reduces the number of things you have to juggle going through security (taking out liquids, taking off shoes, etc) which can be handy when traveling alone.

    7. Llellayena*

      Become familiar with the google map of the area around the conference center (street names, nearby lunch locations), street view can help so the area doesn’t seem completely “unfamiliar” when you arrive. See if there is an airport shuttle service to and from your hotel, arranged door-to-door transport is SO much better than “which bus am I taking?” for relieving anxiety about a new location. If you’re not right at the conference hotel, check again for arranged transport to and from the conference. At the conference, push yourself to talk with the people who sit down next to you at the sessions or lunch tables (talking about the sessions you attended is a good opener), but don’t try to go out of your way to approach anyone unless you really want to (maybe wait for day 2). Vendors are great people to talk to because their job is to engage with people and there’s a built in topic of conversation. If the conference has tours or more interactive sessions (Q&A or hands-on type) those are good ways to feel like you are participating and not just listening. Have fun!

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Talking to the people next to you is a good point. View it as part of your job as an attendee–it helps things run smoothly and you never know what unexpected information they might have that you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. You can build in time in the evening, or perhaps between sessions, to decompress from the people-on aspect.

    8. Blue*

      I’m a highly introverted woman in my early 30s who does a lot of solo traveling. For me, the best way to deal with nerves about traveling to an unfamiliar place is to be as prepared as possible. On the plus side, traveling for a conference takes a lot of the variables out of the picture – most of your time is already accounted for, you probably don’t have to do a lot of research on places to stay, etc. Regardless, I always type up a cheat sheet with my flight information, hotel address, rental car information if needed, etc. and confirmation numbers for each, print it out, and keep that close at hand at all times. For work travel, I’ll include the contact info for the admin in our office who handles financial stuff if there are questions about hotel payment or whatever.

      If I’m going to need a rental car or take public transportation from the airport, I look up that information ahead of time and figure out where I need to go and/or what I need to do so I feel prepared when I arrive. If I have to drive, I probably have the route printed out, just in case. I avoid checking a bag whenever possible, and I make sure everything I could conceivably need on the flight itself is tucked into my “personal item.” Essentially, I try to control for everything I can – it makes me feel more prepared, which puts me in a calmer state of mind to deal with any hiccups that might arise.

      Attending a conference solo when you’re an introvert is EXHAUSTING, imo. I found myself in this position just last week. I made the most of it by making some conference buddies – people I sat around during the early sessions and chatted with a bit. When we crossed paths again, I tended to gravitate back toward them, since having some semi-familiar faces was better than nothing. I also strategically chose to skip some things to save my energy for those that seemed more important and ended my nights fairly early so I could retreat for some quiet time. I’m not going to pretend like I wasn’t run down by the end, because I was – I even took a couple of days off to recover from pretending to be an extrovert for five days (and to make up for missing my weekend). But it wasn’t as painful as it might’ve been because I tried to be conscious of my limits.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Seconding the advice to type up a one page document with all the information (addresses, phone numbers, confirmation numbers). Ideally print it out and stick it in your carryon so you don’t have to get out the laptop to check things. I’ve been known to put this info on the back of a google map printout of whatever would be useful to have if I am out of cell range or battery, like the route from the hotel to the conference if they’re not in the same building.

      2. Caterpie*

        100% agree about conference exhaustion as an introvert! I allowed myself one meal a day where I would take a plate out to a little-used floor/corner/outside area and eat by myself. The other meal(s) I forced myself to try and network, but that one meal alone was a lifesaver for me! Skipping less-relevant sessions and ending early are great suggestions too. I sat in the very very back with my computer when I felt like I was running out of steam and I actually found a woman who is a leader of my field back there doing the same with her Kindle!

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I’m not sure what about the prospect of traveling to a new city is fazing you.

      Having a hotel room to yourself, and traveling alone to the conference and back, should help a lot on the introversion front–you may have to be actively engaging during meet and greet or information sessions, but you have the image “I’ll go back to the hotel room and have a bath and read my book” to power you through the high interaction segments.

      1. Anonysand*

        It’s not that the city is new (I’ve been there many times before, just not this particular area or the airport), it’s that I’ll be traveling by myself for several days in a place that I’m unfamiliar with, without anyone I know around. As I mentioned above, I’m in my twenties and a female, but more so, I’m 5 feet tall and pretty petite. I’ve always had traveling companions, which gives you some sense of security in terms of safety or even just the acknowledgment that someone is with you and knows where you are if something goes wrong. My only option from the airport is to take a cab or an uber to the hotel (12 miles, I’ve already checked), and I’ve never done that solo- I don’t live in an area with cabs or much need for ridesharing, so I’m used to driving myself around and being in control. I’m well aware of the kinds of danger out there for women, and I’m already an anxious person by nature, so all these things added up is making me want to be as prepared as possible.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I’m 50, but a petite blond female introvert and probably something of a head-turner in my 20s, and none of this is registering to me. I’d suggest it’s your anxiety rather than the known risks of being female, or young, or short, or alone. My daughter is tall but otherwise hits all these marks and solo travels to other continents.

          To get a cab, get in line for a cab at the airport. To get an uber, know that the estimated times the app gives are to your destination, not to picking you up (this threw me at first–why at a major airport is the closest uber 50 minutes away?). The app should give you directions to the pickup area for ubers and the skycap-type people will tell you as well. I live in a suburb with no public transit and drive or walk everywhere, so I only take cabs or ubers when I travel, but it’s not that hard to figure out–thousands of other newbies are also figuring it out each day and doing okay.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Re the anxiety–I think the things you are worried about are unlikely, but also more likely if you are projecting “Oh no I am doing it wrong I am lost I must have messed up.” And so you look less likely to push back against someone who strides up trying to project authority at you. It’s body language far more than height, at least until you look like you might be a lost bouncer. A common tactic is to stride off purposefully at random until you are at a good spot to stop and dig out your phone/map/etc and check. Also all the advice about using google maps to figure out the route, if there are restaurants near the hotel, etc.

        2. BadWolf*

          I short and female and I get where you are coming from. I live in an area where most people drive everywhere so taking transportation (taxis, trains, etc) is not something I need to do often. Heck, only a month ago was the first time I used a ride share app.

          If you plan to do Uber or Lyft, download the app now, add your payment info so it’s all set up. Sometimes they have sign up deals, so you could even do a reduced price fair around town just to try it out. You can also go to the Uber or Lyft website and do a fare estimate so you can see how much it will cost to do airport/hotel.

          I recently used SuperShuttle do a hotel/airport transportation when a taxi/ride share seemed a lot more expensive. It often takes long because you’re probably picked up and dropping off other people, but you’d be more in a group situation (and I was able to rebook via their app a couple times when my flights went awry).

        3. Maya Elena*

          Cabs vs. Uber/Lyft from airports have pluses and minuses for each. I’d argue that the likelihood of you being harassed in the latter, at least in any harmful way (other than the driver making small talk with you and asking you if you have children, hehe) is small. Beyond that, it’s really a matter of preference. Here are the main pros and cons I can think of:

          Cabs – PRO: well-integrated into the airport ecosystem, with signs where to go, an established “pecking order” for assigning you to a cab, everyone knows what to do. There’s often a flat fee to go to popular destination (e.g. downtown), which is ideal because then the driver has no incentive to take detours. If the flat fee exists (you can probably look it up), bring along $100 in twenties and pay the cab in cash with tip, esp. if work pays for it. (Cabbies prefer cash in general is my experience.) Sometimes they also know the area better than random Uber driver.
          CONS: If there’s no flat fee, they might take you some weird way to get more money; they sometimes dislike credit cards and make a fuss when you pay with one, especially for smaller charges; they may be more expensive than Uber. No end-to-end location tracking, except through your own phone. No recourse really if driver is unsavory in some way.

          Uber/Lyft PRO: You know your driver’s face, plate, car make and model in advance; your location is tracked end-to-end; no cash is exchanged, including tips. If the driver harasses you or deviates in any way, you can complain and the company is more likely to take your side (at least, the drivers like to complain about this!). The drivers mostly know to just use the GPS, no questions asked. Often, but not always, cheaper than a cab and/or better service (varies by locale).

          Uber/Lyft CON: Many airports don’t allow Ubers to pick up there, or make it really inconvenient. Major exception: Seattle-Tacoma, where they have a dedicated and easy-to-find location for ride-share pickup. If your destination is pretty close (don’t think this applies for 12 miles, but yes for <5), drivers try to weasel ways of finding that out and then canceling on you because the short trips aren't great, especially given the extra costs and overhead of airport pickups (which I don't know all the details of and varies by city). Also, the newer drivers might be unfamiliar with the local geography and are dependent on the GPS.

          1. JR*

            The fact that Uber/Lyft are tracking my and the cab’s location makes me feel extra safe using those two, but I’ve also never had a negative experience in many solo cab trips in cities around the country. It’s completely appropriate in either case to exchange pleasantries when you get in, then bury yourself in the phone and not talk further. If it makes you feel better, text someone the cab’s medallion number and let them know you’ll text them when you get to the hotel. Or put the hotel into your GPS and watch yourself moving along the path, so you know if the car is going in a substantially different direction (allowing, of course, for alternate paths and such) – just mute your phone if you do this!

        4. PennyLane*

          I remember feeling like this the first time I traveled alone! I’m an introvert w/some anxiety too and a short woman. I’m also a planner and researcher, so I always want to know everything about what I’m getting into. When I had to go on my first solo trip, I realized I’d never flown by myself- always with my parents and I just followed along even as an adult because they knew what to do. So I was nervous I’d do something wrong. First, I asked my mom what to make sure to do and have for the airport . I also did some research on the arrival airport so I knew where to park, check bags, go for security and where the gates were. It’s nerve wracking the first few times, but 10 years later, I feel much more comfortable traveling solo for work even though I only do it a few times a year. I realized it’s always pretty easy to find your way around an airport (domestic ones, can’t vouch for international)- just look for the signage and ask if in doubt.

          I do a little research in terms of check in/out times and find out if the hotel checks baggage (since I’m usually working before/after those times). I also download any apps I need and save the places I’ll need to know addresses to in Google maps (like hotel, airport, conference location), so I can easily pull them up. I always print off my hotel confirmation and flight info and then have a list of addresses or important info on 1 page that I just keep easily accessible in my carry on. When I fly, I use a backpack for my carryon- I put a purse inside so I can switch it out if I need to check the backpack when I arrive. I keep anything I need for the flight in there- it’s so much easier than fumbling around with 2 different bags and it fits under my seat so I don’t have to worry about finding that elusive overhead bin space (of course, that only works if you check a bag or are an impressive packer).

          I was a late Uber adopter, but I decided to try it out since not all cities have easy access to cabs or public transit. I only use it when I travel and then I’ll uninstall it til my next trip (I never use it where I live), but it keeps your account info, so that’s easy. The first time I think I had to just kinda figure it out and ask people standing around if I’m in the right place. Now, I can help those confused newbies at the airport! But when getting to/from the airport, there are often other options like shuttles you can pay for- the airport websites are usually good resources for that.

          As for security in a city, you can always google places to avoid or if you have colleagues there, ask where you should stay and avoid. I don’t have tons of money to travel, so when I travel for work, I love to get out and explore at night or if I have some free time when I arrive. You can be attacked anywhere, I don’t necessarily think one place is much safer than others. You just have to be hyper aware of your surroundings, especially at night. Don’t walk around with headphones on or your face in your phone- look around you and if someone tries to stop you, just say no and keep walking. Don’t feel like you need to engage to be polite. If you don’t feel safe using public transit or walking, take cabs and ubers. Or see if others want to join you. You can also ask a friend or family member to do checkins or do one of those find my friends apps.
          I also have this cat knuckle keychain that I sometimes take that you could easily wear on your hand while walking around- but don’t put it in your carry on-it’s considered a weapon.

          The more you do it, the more comfortable you’ll feel. It helps you gain confidence realizing you can figure it out even if you didn’t plan something.

    10. DAMitsDevon*

      I’m an introvert with anxiety too, so conferences can definitely burn me out a bit. One thing I like to do is plan out what I’m doing during break times and the end of the day so that I know have some time planned just for myself to recharge. The last conference I went to was within walking distance of a bookstore that I hung out in one night.

      I also like looking at nearby restaurants on Yelp ahead of time so I have an idea of where I can get food near the conference in case they’re not providing every meal (and so I can have an excuse to get out of the hotel!).

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The news is being alone lessens stress induced by having no control over your companions. No waiting carpool to the center or to/from other sites.

      Be early. Explore. Use maps. It’s the era of tech, you get lost less in my experience.

      I’m anxious and introverted and love traveling alone.

      1. MayLou*

        I definitely find travelling to large cities (London usually, in my case) much easier when I’m alone. I’m an introvert with anxiety, and I find planning very helpful. If it’s just me I have a far better chance of sticking to the plan, and fewer people’s needs to factor into altering the plan. My wife’s a wheelchair user and prefers to wheel across the city than try and figure out an accessible public transport route. I have a fatigue disorder and find London exhausting without spending 30-120 minutes walking round the streets, so far prefer the Tube – so predictable! So structured! So antisocial! When we travel to London together, we have reached a compromise that is accessible to us both: taxis.

    12. Steggy Saurus*

      I’m an introvert and go to conferences alone. I don’t have travel anxiety, so I can’t help there, but here are some conference survival tips I’ve used with success.

      Find one or two people you might know in passing and try to develop a business relationship. The first time I went to my professional conference I did force myself to attend the “new attendees” mixer: consider giving this a try if your conference has one. Either way, finding just one or two people gives you someone to sit next to and potentially a dinner partner one night. I admit that I was a shameless clinger in my first few years: I found those few people and definitely made sure to seek them out every year at my conference, setting up lunch or dinner plans early on. Just having a couple faces to seek out when you walk into a session helps: it’s such a relief to find someone to sit next to that you “know.”

      Scope out a mini mart or supermarket near your hotel and hopefully get a room with a small fridge. Buy breakfast foods and snacks and stash them in your room so that not every meal needs to be had with other people around. You ground yourself in the morning with coffee and breakfast, then you can maximize your “on” time while the conference is happening.

      If you like to unwind with a beer or something at night, keep a bottle opener in your toiletries bag. This way you can unwind at night in the privacy of your hotel room without the annoyance of not being able to get into your beer (ahem, yes, this has happened to me)!

      If there are small sessions or poster sessions, use this as the opportunity to talk to someone rather than asking a question in a heavily-attended session. Have a question written down to ask the presenter. Poster sessions (if this is a thing in your field) are great because they’re crowded and you probably be forced to talk to any one new person for an extended time.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        One more thing: if you can possibly swing it, give yourself a recovery day off from work when you get back. I almost always take a vacation day post-travel. That day of solitude makes a huge difference for me.

    13. cmcinnyc*

      I’ve been to some great conferences and I love them but the first ones I went to were nerve-wracking. I’m more extroverted and not particularly anxious–my point is that doing this can for the first time can be tough for anybody. My top suggestion is to stay at the conference hotel if at all possible or as close to it as possible. There were a couple times I just needed to go to my room and regroup, sort out all the paper I’d been handed at various panels, give myself a pep talk, and get back out there. Easy to do if you can zip to another floor for 20 or 30 minutes. Also, if the hotel has a pool or a fitness room, plan to use it. You might not have time, of course, but exercise, for me, makes everything better. Also, I drastically limited alcohol. It’s a bad crutch when nervous. I don’t have a high tolerance and the last thing I wanted to do was get accidentally drunk!

    15. Bostonian*

      As a fellow introvert who still wants to make the most out of conferences, my advice is to focus your socialization energy. For example, decide that you’re going to talk with people at your table at lunch, but skip the after-conference dinner/social hour, or whatever set amount/combination of activities you are most comfortable with. If you try to do it all in the first day or 2, you are going to be drained really fast!

      If it makes you feel any better, I’ve also traveled alone to unfamiliar cities as a young, 5’1″/130 lb female (NYC, Philly, etc.), and have never been in a position to feel unsafe. Common sense/street smarts go a long way. If you’re concerned about cabs, you can look up your rights as a cab passenger so you’ll know if you’re getting swindled. (I once got into a cab, and 5 minutes into the ride he realized his credit card machine was broken. I think there was something wrong with the fare box, too. I only had $7 cash. I felt bad, but I knew he still had to take me to my destination, even though he knew he wouldn’t get paid the full amount.)

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Planning is your friend — which means maps are your best friend. Look at Google Maps to identify the airport, the conference center, and your route between the two. If you’re taking a bus or train, learn the name of the stops before & after your destination as well. Stop-before gives you time to gather your things & move to the door. Stop-after lets you quit worrying about missing your stop because you’ll recognize the name of when you might need to turn around and go back.
      Dig up the conference center’s building map and figure out where the important things are — auditorium, conference rooms, bathrooms, food court, vending machines, elevators or escalators, and a route to your hotel. Read the schedule ahead of time and figure out your preferred schedule along with second choices in case the schedule changes.
      Get these in hardcopy or print them because sometimes we want to talk on the phone while walking…and sometimes our batteries run out.
      Load a QR reader app onto your phone to take advantage of any “download here” info.
      Google the city itself to find out what they promote as interesting. If you can plan time to do one non-conference outing, you’ve got instant smalltalk conversation. “My flight was early enough I asked the Uber driver for a side trip to see the riverfront. Have you seen it?” or “The hotel brochure said Famous Dead Author grew up around the corner. Do you think it’s worth the walk?”
      Oh and plan to retreat to your hotel room when you need to recharge. Bring something small that soothes you, be it the socks you’re knitting or a zen coloring book.
      Remember to look for someone else who looks nervous – you may well have that in common at least. And it may sound silly, but remind yourself that everyone’s asking each other the basic questions and that’s okay. Where are you from, what’s your interest in this conference, does your company ahve a booth, etc. Enjoy!

    17. AliV*

      I think it’s good you are asking for strategies here. I had a teammate who clearly got nervous over travel and would ask lots of questions on conference calls about details she could have looked up herself. It really diminished her stature in the eyes of our teammates and managers, as she was seen as someone who needed hand-holding. So good for you for asking here and not at the office.

    18. Workerbee*

      Is there a Twitter account/hashtag associated with this conference, or any other social network forum around it?

      I’ve found that joining structured discussions around an event help people plan in advance, especially if it’s their first time to said conference and/or they are solo attendees. People make pacts to meet up so you know you’ve already got an acquaintance or two on the other side, conference veterans share tips, etc.

      I also agree with the others who say to try to nab a room in the conference hotel itself.

      And once you’re there, you’ll be surrounded by people who are ostensibly there for similar purposes, and that common ground helps smooth the way toward conversations.

      Other things that have served me well:
      –If you see someone sitting alone during lunch, sit down with them.
      –If you find yourself drawn into a group conversation, keep an eye out for passersby who look like they’d like to join in but don’t know how–and bring them in.
      –Set at least one goal for each day you’re there. “I will talk to 5 vendors.” “I will talk to X presenter after the session.” Whatever makes sense for the venue.

      And have a great time!

    19. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Do some research on the city, the location of the conference (e.g., neighborhood and venue, like hotel or conference center), the dress code at the conference (probably business casual but I don’t know). If you cannot stay at the hotel where the conference is being held, stay nearby. Since you are female (and I am too), I hope you won’t be offended when I say please stay at a place with good security in a safe neighborhood. I once arrived at a hotel where it took 45 minutes to check in and I then found that my room was on the first floor all the way at the back. Uhhh, no.

    20. Samwise*

      At the conference: any time there is a meal or a meeting where there are round tables with unassigned seating, pick a table with a few people and introduce yourself. Everyone’s wearing a name tag, so you don’t have to worry about remembering names [= my weakness]. Have some open-ended questions prepared: Which sessions have you attended / which sessions did you like / were most useful?
      Have you heard Keynote Speaker before? Yes — what do you think of her message? No — me either! I’m really interested to hear what she says about X.
      I see [from the nametag, bless whoever first came up with them] that you work at EvilCorp / in FabulousCity — how did you end up there?
      I see you work as a HeadBeanCounter, that’s actually a job I’m aiming for at SmallCompany. What do you like about it? Or, I’d love to pick your brain about being a HeadBeanCounter! [see if they are receptive, if yes, ask a few questions and, if you want to know more and they seem receptive, say, I’d love to talk more about this, you’re so helpful! Could we get a cup of coffee later today/after this session?]

      Even if it’s just a casual conversation, I jot down the person’s name and something we chatted about to help myself remember, and if I see them again at the conference I’ll say hello and ask something from the conversation [Hi Sally BeanCounter! Did you get to session on Abacus Vs. Fingers?]

      If you exchange business cards [don’t forget to bring yours and remember to put them in your briefcase or jacket pocket etc so that you have them when needed], you can jot a note on the back of the card. Be sure to follow up after the conference, usually I send an email with a question or if they asked me a question, I send the answer.

      I am super introverted but I’ve learned to get over the shyness and anxiety by having these kinds of scripts ready, and also because I’ve been making myself do it for many years. I also try to pick tables with people who seem really different from me — so maybe people who are older or younger, people who are dressed up more or more casually, people who present as a different gender or race, and so on. I really love going to conferences in fact — often I will learn something interesting at least one session and if not, then I meet some interesting people.

      And, obviously, allow yourself down time in the hotel room. Get room service one night if your employer allows it!

    21. Ahead fish*

      I don’t know how much this will help, but at least for airports, it helps to remember that airport staff are 100% used to dealing with basically every airport-related crisis a person can have. Your sole duty is to arrive on the airport an hour or two before your flight leaves, with your identification. Very long security lines and you might miss your plane though you technically were an hour early? They’ll let passengers with very little time to get to their flight through first. Miss a connection because of weather? They’ll rebook you at no extra cost. Miss a connection because of delays? They’ll rebook you at no extra cost. Lose your boarding pass? They’ll print a new one for you. Phone dead? Talk to them at the desk to get a new boarding pass. Paper boarding pass not working? They’ll tell you where to get a new one then let you skip ahead. I even have boarded my domestic flight with only a perscription bottle and spare credit card, because my wallet was stolen during my trip. Not sure if it helps, but people really underestimate what airport staff are able to do, bless them. Just stay polite if you do have a crisis.

  14. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

    I’m applying for an executive assistant position that requires a bachelor’s degree. I only have an associate’s degree. I hope my 15+ years of experience will make up for that and figure there’s no harm in trying. Should I address this directly in my cover letter? Or not explicitly mention it but instead focus on accentuating how I grew my knowledge and other positive things that do make me suited for the position?

    From the job description, it’s mostly stuff I’ve previously done and nothing so complex it requires a degree. I have no concerns about my ability to do the work so I don’t want to automatically be disqualified for not meeting that one requirement.

    1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      I know all jobs vary and there may be a reason for needing it, but I HATE jobs that have strict requirements like that without allowing an equivalent number of years experience as a substitute for no reason. This question is also ironic because I just watched Second Act the other night!

      I’d only mention your lack of degree briefly, basically starting with “Though I do not have a Bachelor’s…” and really hammer them with your years of experience (which are a lot and very valuable) and all that you’ve learned from them.

      However, if they do mention anywhere at all that experience can substitute a degree, then I’d leave the caveat about the degree out.

      1. Kathenus*

        You could also phrase it a little differently to highlight the experience part first, versus the degree – “I believe the combination of my 15 years of experience and Associate’s degree make me a strong candidate for this role”, or something along those lines.

        While some employers can be very rigid with these types of arbitrary minimum qualifications, many to most seem to take a combination of education and experience into consideration.

        3. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          That’s definitely a good way to put it! I was originally worried because I wanted her to show that she’s fully aware of the stated requirement, but yours has a more positive focus that doesn’t detract from her accomplishments.

          1. Kathenus*

            I’m with you on showing she’s aware. It’s close to a dealbreaker for me when an applicant does not meet the stated requirements (not preferences) for a job and doesn’t acknowledge that fact and why they believe they would still be a good candidate.

      2. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

        Thank you! Alas, the job posting explicitly states a bachelor’s degree is required AND 5-10 years of experience. I’ve seen some postings that indicate experience can be a substitute but that it not at suggested here. I’m not getting my hopes up about this job as a result but I at least want to try.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          If you’re applying through an ATS, you’ll likely get excluded by the sorting algorithm, unfortunately.

        2. Antilles*

          I wouldn’t parse their wording too much. Even if they don’t explicitly mention “substitute extra experience”, hiring managers usually still will do so mentally. This is extra-true since you’re way above their expectations in experience.

        3. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          That’s seriously the worst, but I think your degree and years experience more than makes up for it! Good luck!

        4. Nessun*

          I was an EA for over 15 years, and I don’t have a degree of any type. I do have a designation through the IAAP, which I specifically got to counter the “lack of education” on my resume. I would absolutely apply regardless of the wording on the posting – if you’re not auto sorted out, your cover letter will allow you to explain why your experience matters more than the (sometimes) arbitrary degree requirements. Best of luck!

          1. Kat in VA*

            Same here – HS diploma only and I barely got that (long boring story, parents divorced in my senior year, was tired of eating rice because no one was home, got a job at 17 yada yada).

            Some places require it, some don’t – my current employer was smart enough to realize that 20+ years working my way up from receptionist – general admin – department admin – EA was more than enough to qualify me for my current role. He was less concerned about spending 4 years in college (that no one in my poor family could afford) and more concerned about whether I could do the job. (Bonus points – he didn’t consider my speech impediment, which can be really gnarly some days, to be a problem. They’re all a bunch of deaf ex-military so they’re used to saying WHAT on a regular basis anyway.)

      3. Narvo Flieboppen*

        I agree with the hate for set in stone degree requirements. Fresh out of college, never had a job, but you have a Bachelor’s degree? Come on in! Whoa, whoa, whoa, you have 12 years experience but only an Associate’s? We’re not even going to accept your application, ya bum!

        Had one recently which was even more fun during the application process. Requirement listed of Bachelor’s degree or 5+years industry experience. Start the online application, and the first question it asks: Do you have a Master’s degree? If you answer no, you get booted from the process and cannot reapply. I called the contact listed in the ad and she specified that is correct, they only want applicants with a Master’s degree or higher for an entry level position. But the ad is also correctly worded, according to her, because a Master’s degree isn’t required even though you must have one to apply.

        To quote the esteemed Inigo Montoya “You keep using that word. I do not think that it means what you think it means.”

      4. Me*

        I can only tell you what my employer does. If it requires a degree and does not state anything about experience in lieu of, you wouldn’t get an interview regardless of years of experience.

        Especially for jobs like admins, where there tend to be A LOT of applicants (the last one we had had 236), it’s not fair but it’s an easy way to limit the pool.

        Apply but don’t be surprised if they do decide to use the degree as a pool limiter.

        1. Kat in VA*

          This may just be my own bias talking, but I’d rather the HS graduate with five years’ experience be interviewed than a college grad with no or little experience. A bachelor’s degree in no way makes you more qualified to be an assistant in a corporate environment.

    2. Miss Muffet*

      A lot of postings will say something like “degree or equivalent experience” so that can help and wouldn’t necc need to be called out specifically in your cover letter. I think you can probably just talk about what your experience brings without being specific about the degree.
      Having managed administrative assistants, who did not have degrees, I think the thing that the degree might have offered has more to do with the experience of college – the way that people learn to problem solve in collaborative environments. Which – obvs – isn’t the only place to learn it, but that was something I often thought was missing from people on this team. It was less about the degree and more about the soft skills.

    3. BeachMum*

      I have done a fair bit of hiring for administrative positions. I put ‘Bachelor’s Degree’ in the requirements to weed out those who have no education or experience (i.e. I’m not hiring an entry level position). However, I have hired those with a lot of experience and no degree. Given that a single administrative position ad will generate hundreds of resumes, I’ve tried to eliminate those who are totally unqualified from applying.

      (That said, it doesn’t work and I get totally unqualified candidates.)

      Apply for the job. Your lack of a degree should be more than covered by your years of experience.

    4. Moonbeam Malone*

      I don’t think you need to address it explicitly in your cover letter – focus on your experience and accomplishments and it should be self-evident why you applied despite having a different degree.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      A trick for this is to build that resume to really hammer home your experience and accomplishments doing the job so that a human reading it will believe that you’ve got them covered.

      AND … to help a computer actually pass you along after the ATS search terms are entered … write in one of your bullets in the top bit of your resume where you’re telling them your highlights, “Bachelor’s Level experience in Llama Management”. This places you into part of the right crowd without actually lying. Your associates degree and any additional professional development/training info can go in the Education section.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Unless it’s a government position or other place who must follow “requirements” to the death, don’t read too much into it. They’re trying to weed out the flood of resumes from resume spammers which still doesn’t work well for most.

      Don’t acknowledge the fact in your cover letter. It’s to sell your skills not point out things you’re missing from their listing. It’ll put a blinking sign over you saying “I know you said bachelor degree but let me prove you wrong.” Just catch their attention so they don’t focus on the degree as a sticking point.

      If they have leeway to opt for experience vs degree level, will flex it. If not, the screeners will toss your resume and the letter won’t be read anyways.

    7. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone! I just applied using wording similar to what Kathenus suggested and can only hope my resume isn’t already in the reject pile. I had to apply through zip recruiter and of course it asked two questions before submittal: one about a background check and one asking if I have a bachelor’s degree. Boo. I’m trying to temper my hopes about this job since it’s likely my resume went straight to the “doesn’t know how to read job requirements” pile.

    8. Nana*

      Did you attend college? I did, but didn’t graduate. I’ve always listed my education as
      Decent College – English major; Llama minor
      No dates, no degree. Never a problem. [At one job, after 2 years, someone casually asked if I had a BA or BS…and I casually said ‘neither.’ No issue

  15. Where to next?*

    To all Executive Assistants who are no longer Executive Assistants: Where did you go next? The CEO recently told me that he can’t promote me again after my recent promotion to EA because “it would look like favoritism”, so once I’ve lived out my time here as an EA, I’m going to have to look outside the company. I don’t want to be an EA forever–I’m thinking about getting my MBA and trying to be an executive myself someday! So I’m just looking for possible paths to take.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      I know some EAs who have gone on to project management type roles, perhaps that could be a path worth exploring?

    2. The Tin Man*

      I like this question but am more than a little baffled at your CEO’s stance. You can’t be promoted EVER again? And favoritism is fine – unless he founded the company he became CEO because he was “favored” by the people in position to make him CEO. Is he worried that if you are a woman that it will look like he is favoring you for unseemly reasons? Favoritism is not bad. Unearned favoritism or favoritism to the point of being blind to criticism of someone would be the problem.

      I think EA to Project Management could work due to some overlapping themes – being highly organized, coordinating timelines, managing people’s work even if you don’t have hire/fire authority over them, etc.

      1. kbeers0su*

        Agreed. This stinks of some combination of sexism and…a lack of actual appreciation for an EA’s skills? Which is probably also sexism, because most EAs are women. Also, this is the crap that makes good people leave their jobs. So how’s the CEO going to feel when OP up and leaves and he gets upset because he “was so good to her by promoting her”?

        If I were you, I’d start looking now. This gives me bad vibes.

      2. Where to next?*

        Yeah, it’s definitely not a great stance. He’s the founder’s son, so I think he has a little bit of insecurity/impostor syndrome and it makes him want to follow what he thinks are “the rules” to the letter.

        I do like the PM aspects of my jobs–I do a lot of project tracking on his behalf–but it seems like a lot of those roles are IT-focused and that area is not a strength of mine. Do other companies have non-IT PMs?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          LMAO @ he’s tghe son of the founder and he’s talking about promoting his EA would be viewed as favoritism! That’s rich.

          The fact is that the people who you support directly know you best and therefore should be able to promote you if they see fit. It shouldn’t be routed in “Man, I like Where to Next, she’s so kind and a bright light to be around…let’s just forget that she’s forgetful and burns holes in my desk sometimes and gets us fined heavily for not meeting standards but she’s so pretty and nice, therefore we will promote her to CEO when I’m gone.”

          Our CEO is the former assistant to the owners, so just byeeeee to that nonsense. Their previous CEO was promoted from within, not a direct assistant but close enough to them that they knew her personally because hello, that’s a huge amount of trust and responsibility, that’s why you don’t just throw up a job ad on Craigslist for your next CEO.

        2. The Tin Man*

          Companies definitely have non-IT PMs! A good friend of mine is a PM with a sales background and works at a tech company! My company also has PMs without an IT background and we are a very much non-tech company.

    3. Kelly*

      I went from an EA to a Project Coordinator. It was a move to an exempt position, which in healthcare seems to be a big deal. I’m taking a LBBC (Lean Black Belt Certification) and the PMP (Project Management Professional) to move more into a Project Manager role.

    4. Schnoodle HR*

      I know a lot of people in HR who came from an EA background. You could easily slip into any department’s assistant. Marketing assistant, HR assistant, things like that and move up from within.

    5. SamIAm*

      Not knowing your industry, it’s hard to get specific, but I went from EA to running a specific program (or area). It required a lot of organizational skills which is what I used to talk my way into the position! Interestingly, after a few years I went back into the admin side because I realized that’s what I really enjoyed. It gave me some great experience though and I am no longer doing typical EA stuff (it’s complicated but basically I have my hand in a lot of stuff!)

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your CEO is…weird.

      I went into department management and business administration, with the focus of CFO in mind for the future. So I did EA work for business owners focusing on their accounting.

      Being an EA often is like being apprenticed into the executive office. Your CEO should be trusting you and giving you more projects to boost you into department management or project management kind of roles not just saying that you’ve peaked as his assistant.

      The whole point is to show you the bottom up of the process that goes into running an entire business. Don’t let this one CEO taint your dreams or ambition, I’m glad that you know that you’ll have to leave some time and can look elsewhere.

      1. Where to next?*

        I would love it if this was the attitude. It’s been great and I’ve learned a lot, but he says after this if I want to stay here, I’ll have to start over from the very bottom at a lower salary in a specific department. Maybe I’ll go to another EA role after this and see if that opens any other doors, too. I never meant to stay in this position too long anyway. Thank you so much for your encouragement!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I encourage you to remove yourself from anything he has any power over. He’s not a CEO you want to learn from.

          There are many different ‘kinds’ of executives out there and he sounds like a little pissant to be honest with you. The good ones want to build their empire by coaching you on how to take it over one day because of course they don’t live forever and don’t want to work forever.

          You have learned valuable skills and you can get a better EA job that will blossom faster the next time around. You just have to find the ‘right fit’ in this case.

          Most people ask you where you see yourself in five years and you need to be honest that you are working assistant roles in order to climb the ladder. Then they can either be the ones who are happy with that mindset or the ones who stink who think that once an assistant, always an assistant. Those people are classist fools and should not be tolerated for longer than it takes you to reap whatever rewards you can get out of the situation prior to bouncing on your merry way.

    7. LKW*

      I got a MS in information systems while I was an admin and then moved to business consulting. I only been working as an EA about 5 years after college so it wasn’t a huge step back (and it was a big step forward salary wise).

    8. cmcinnyc*

      In my company, some EAs have moved to Project Management, but usually they got some kind of additional training or certification first. However, our company does tuition reimbursement, so they did that while working full time and it was paid for. So if your company does tuition reimbursement, you could go for that MBA right now.

      1. Where to next?*

        I would love to find a company with tuition reimbursement. I requested it here and it was another “no, it’ll look like favoritism.” Also the reason I can’t go to industry conferences even though he’s said he’d like my help there. Sigh.

    9. Live & Learn*

      Our chief counsel has the most amazing EA and she’s helping her develop skills to move into project management since her position has a natural ceiling. Her organization, diplomacy, calm under pressure and familiarity with the business are all highly transferable skills.

    10. Nessun*

      I went to project management! My career went receptionist to admin assistant to executive assistant, and then my boss offered me this opportunity as a manager. He understood how my skills organizing the group we worked with (and my continuous learning) would be a benefit in the role, and suggested me for it. I completely understand the “can’t go higher” thing…sometimes the structure of the company doesn’t support it, and sometimes people don’t understand how admin/EA skills translate to other positions. However if you can show the correlation and continue to work on your degree/program, it IS possible to move out of the EA role. That visibility was key for me, as well as the skill set.

  16. Jonah*

    Finally, finally got a new job! I’ve posted here before about how I’m concerned that my current organization is going under any time now thanks to shady practices by the CEO, and I appreciate all the encouragement from the community. My new job will have a nice pay increase and a title bump, I’ll get to hone my creative skills, and it’s going to save me nearly $15k a year in miscellaneous costs associated with commuting, groceries (I get free lunch every day!), and healthcare premiums/copays. I couldn’t get them to go up at all on the salary, but thanks to all the great scripts on the blog and in the comments, I was able to negotiate an 80% increase in vacation days! Now I just have to make it over the hurdle of telling my current boss I’m leaving… Thanks, everybody–this is such a great community to be a part of!

    5. Anon for this*

      Holy crap! 80% increase in vacation days? I couldn’t get my current company (that I otherwise love) to match my third week of vacation I had JUST earned but not even gotten to use at my last job (the second time I earned three weeks of vacation I then had to give up…) despite trying to negotiate that. Very well-done!

  17. ATX Salary*

    I’ve tried the things Alison recommends to research the market rate salary for a position/city with little success; I either get flooded by quotes for “software architects,” or find a huge range without information about what experience level pairs to the quoted salary, or find job adds that say vague things like “aggressive compensation” or “excellent pay” or “competitive salary” which is NOT HELPFUL.

    So here goes: I am a midlevel (8+ years) registered architect, I have project experience from design phase through construction administration, and 3+ years Revit experience looking in Austin TX.
    Is anyone else in a similar position/location and mind sharing their salary?

      1. ATX Salary*

        I’ve done 3 to 4 things on your list – I started with online salary websites, but ran into the problems you mentioned (too wide a range). Then I tried job postings, with no luck. I’ve contacted recruiters in the area, and never heard back, I reached out to people at other companies and again got vague answers (lots of “X, but great benefits”, “$Y and ABC perks…”).
        So I’m just trying to cast as wide a net as I can :)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I reached out to people at other companies and again got vague answers (lots of “X, but great benefits”, “$Y and ABC perks…”).

          Those sound pretty specific to me, but maybe I’m not understanding.

    2. Ranon*

      The AIA does a salary survey every year, their online tool isn’t terribly fine grained but it does give a pretty solid range of data based on surveys of actual employers, and digs into the salary differences based on employer size. You can also pay for the report if you’re wanting very specific info. In my experience it’s pretty close, although Austin is a bit of a goofy market in the region due to UT producing grads that stick around and Austin being the “cool” city to live in, although I think it’s leveled out a bit as Dallas and Houston have grown.

      1. Llellayena*

        Oh this is awesome information! I’ve had similar uncertainties about what an architect’s salary is really supposed to be. My starting salary here ended up at $15,000 less than what the salary calculators generated for me (fresh out of grad school and without any contacts in the field, so no chance to research elsewhere).

    3. Sal*

      If you are googling information and getting the “software architects” results, try putting “-software” in your google search and that will eliminate results that include software. Might help, although if jobs list experience with specific software and use the word in the listing, those will get filtered out as well.

    4. Architect*

      Source: Am registered architect, practicing 12+ years, have worked all over the country and formerly for a company with a Texas HQ. Recently went through an intense job search.

      Salaries for experienced architects can be skyhigh currently depending on what you are looking for. If you practice on the restoration or forensic side of the industry (or if you are interested in exploring that), salaries are 30% than the design side. In Austin, with your years of experience, a license, caveat that I don’t know your particulars, in a PM/Senior Architect role, I would expect you to receive offers around $80K plus benefits. Take that with a grain of salt, but that’s my thought. If you are interested in going to a Terracon, Amtech, WJE, DeSimone-type firm, you should get very strong salary offers. I know a few people in the forensic and enclosure architecture world in Austin – if that’s your interest, I would be happy to pass a resume along. My email is fjthecham at gmail dot com.

  18. Tigger*

    I had my review this week (you may remember 2 weeks ago I was freaking out about giving myself a self-evaluation) and it went great!
    My boss is impressed with me and my growth in the role. The one criticism he had is that coworkers have complained about me being too confident and cocky and I should watch how I am perceived. This has been bugging me all week because I have a ton of self-esteem issues and no one has ever called me confident in my life and 95% of my coworkers are in another country so I only email them. I figure it must be my writing style that is offensive to them and not my personality.
    Is there a way to not come off cocky in email? Is this something that is not a big deal? I am a female so I wonder if it is a tone issue?

    1. Observer*

      It’s easy to misjudge tone in an email ESPECIALLY if you also communicating across cultures.

      Perhaps you can ask your boss for some specific examples so you can moderate your tone. Tell him that you certainly don’t mean to sound cocky or arrogant, so you’d like to have some samples – good and bad – to help you convey the right tone.

    2. sparkle phone*

      Ask your boss for more specific feedback and advice on what to do instead. I think you’ll be able to gauge from that whether he was just passing it along as an FYI, it’s a minor thing, it’s a major thing, etc. and hopefully get more concrete advice. (Maybe it would be beneficial to do some things as a phone or video conference rather than email? It would put less pressure on your word choice in emails if your coworkers have a sense of you as a person.)

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Honestly I add exclamation points to emails sometimes and often thank people for their time/input/etc to help soften email communication (which I strongly prefer to phone calls). Little things like making sure you’re saying good morning/afternoon and wishing people good weekends can help too.

      1. LJay*

        Yeah I do exclamation points a lot.

        I also selectively use emoticons in certain cases.

        I figure my generally serious demeanor in person means I can get away with them without coming off as immature or too bubbly or informal or whatever.

        And they help a great deal with softening things.

        There’s a world of difference between “Thanks.” And, “Thanks!” or “Attached.” And “Attached. :)”

        And really usually it would it would be the difference between
        “Attached.”

        And
        “Hello,
        Please see attached for your requested signed Llama Form.
        Please let me know if you need anything else!
        Thanks,
        LJay”

    4. Middle Manager*

      I’ve definitely seen more criticism of tone when it comes to women in my office, so it’s possible that’s playing into it. Given that it’s email though, I’m thinking that your gender isn’t as big a factor. I think email is just rife with the ability to be misinterpreted. I second the suggestion above to ask for some specific examples. Also, if it’s possible, maybe try to communicate things by webinar or phone? Build the relationship a little more so it’s not as likely to be misinterpreted?

    5. 867-5309*

      I wonder if you are subconsciously over-compensating? Coming across as too informal or too casual… also, look at the country norms with which you’re communicating. I’m an American living in Norway and often get perceived as being “too confident” or “arrogant.” But Norwegian culture is one of suppressing individuality in favor of norms, and so forth, so that feedback makes sense and I need to adjust my style a bit accordingly.

      1. Tigger*

        Do you think that Canadians and Americans have huge cultural differences like that? I have never thought that it would be vastly different like your situation

        1. No Name Yet*

          Speaking as an American who lived in Canada for a few years, that kind of cultural difference absolutely can show up. In some ways even more, I think, because we expect to be more similar, so the differences stand out. Also, if you’re the American, some of their perceptions could be related to how they expect Americans to act.

        2. Live & Learn*

          I’ve noticed a pretty big difference. I’m a Canadian living in the US and notice small things regularly. Americans tend to come across as very confident and sure when they write/speak, even in some cases when they don’t mean this to be the case. Think of small things. Canadians tend towards more “we” or “us” terms, whereas Americans tend towards “I” statements. Canadians speak faster but their speech has a unique uptick at the end that tends to sound like a question which can seem less confident or more like they are gauging consensus. Sometimes it’s just perception of tiny details that matter to someone.

        3. only acting normal*

          I’m Welsh living in England and there socio-cultural differences between those two countries (ie next door in the UK). So US vs Canada – yes.

        4. Canadian Natasha*

          As a Canadian I’d say there is definitely a stereotype that Americans are more brash/loud/obnoxious which could colour any cross-cultural communications you have. It’s obviously not universally true, since we have plenty of our own like that, as anyone who works in a public facing job can testify. However, it is a fairly common stereotype. It can come across in writing style when there isn’t the same level of pleasantry or when requests are made more bluntly than we would make them.

          Actually, speaking as a western Canadian, we have that perception with certain other groups of Canadians too (Albertans and Torontonians come to mind).

          1. Canadian Natasha*

            I should clarify that I absolutely don’t agree with the stereotype (or with treating “Americans” like one giant monocultural unit).

            Practically speaking it might help to compare the style of writing in your emails with the style in your other country colleagues’ emails and see if you can identify any different phrasing that might be reading as cocky in yours.

            And of course, we are also not free of sexism in Canada so it very well could be a gender-based tone judgement and not a cultural difference. Here’s hoping that’s not it!

    6. Narvo Flieboppen*

      As a word of caution: We had an extremely toxic former coworker who would pitch her own personal complaints to the boss as ‘everyone else says this about Wakeen/Fergus/The Mountain’ even when no one else agreed with her at all.

      She tried it with me, and it came up in a review, where supposedly I let the power of my supervising one other person go to me head and I issuing orders to everyone in the office. I told the boss I couldn’t think of any orders I issued except giving instructions to my one direct report, and even most of those were ‘Do task X, then W, then V, today please’ when things were odd and we had to change the usual flow. I then asked for explicit examples of when this had happened, so we could discuss how things may have been misunderstood and how to prevent it in the future. The boss had to come back and apologize because after actually investigating the complaint, it was baseless and there were no examples available.

      I strongly recommend asking for concrete examples of the behavior in question – either you learn something about yourself and your communication skills to make positive changes or you may learn the problem isn’t you at all.

    7. SarahKay*

      Asking for concrete examples definitely seems like a good idea.
      Also, is it possible that your boss is expected to include an “Area for Improvement” in your review and this was the best he could come up with? I know that at my company our annual reviews are required to include an area for improvement, so if you’re really rocking your job sometimes the suggested improvement can end up a bit woolly.

  19. COS*

    Do you socialize with colleagues outside of work? I work in a small team of young, hip women (I’m female and the oldest by about 8 years) and they all frequently socialize together outside of work. I get invited but usually decline saying it clashes with plans because all of my previous roles after college were not into hanging out outside of work hours and this is kinda new to me. I also am a sideways upward step in seniority from them so don’t want them to feel weird by me being there. Am I being a fuddy duddy?

    1. AliP*

      I’ve worked at offices where people would do things together outside of work, but it’s not really something I’m super comfortable with. I did like all the coworkers at this particular job, so I would make an effort to signal friendliness when it felt more “work-friendly” to me. So, for instance, I would attend a happy hour after work when we were celebrating with work colleagues, or go out to lunch with this group every now and then during work hours. Again, I really liked all these people so it wasn’t a hardship and it helped me get to know folks, while still keeping comfortable colleague boundaries.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      I don’t socialize with co-workers, I barely have enough time to keep up with my existing friends. I never left the metro area where my college was, so I have had several well-established social groups for decades.

    3. ten ton trucks*

      I don’t socialize with coworkers. This was actually handled really well at my last workplace: there were a bunch of coworkers who socialized a lot together after work. They invited me to a few things but were fine when I turned it down. Everyone was cool about it, I only heard about it in things like coworker A checking in briefly with coworker B about if plans needed to be changed or whatever. It’s totally fine for some people to be social and some not to be and works out just fine when no one is trying to make it into a Thing.

    4. ClumsyCharisma*

      I did before I got married and had kids.
      Work was a younger crowd, many who were not from the immediate area so it was natural friendships formed at work. Even though a few of us got promoted into management we were all in different departments by that time and never became an issue.
      I don’t really anymore because my outside of work priorities have changed but I did really enjoy those work friends at the time.

    5. Sloan Kittering*

      I can’t tell if you have any interest in actually hanging out with your coworkers, but it kind of sounds like you don’t. That’s fine. They are probably doing it because they expect it to be enjoyable and they want to blow off steam after work / build a personal network together. Especially in the lower ranks you build comradery this way and it’s nice for people who are new in town / trying to make friends – but I doubt it hurts anybody to pass – it’s not like good ole boy networking that pays off in power moves, if it’s what I’m picturing. I have been the instigator of such happy hours in my office. If somebody never takes me up on the invite, I stop inviting them after a few rejections unless they say something like, “oh I really wish I would like to, please keep inviting me.” (Just FYI, in case you later are like “why don’t they ever invite meeee? I want friends!”). If you can show up briefly one time that helps show that you’re not rejecting them socially, you’re just busy with other stuff.

    6. Doug Judy*

      Rarely. If it’s a work sponsored occasion I try to make it, but just to hang out? Basically never. I like most of the people I work with but I see them more than my spouse, kids, and friends. Outside of work they are the last people I want to spend time with. I engage with them and will eat lunch together at work, and I think that’s enough.

    7. LDP*

      I think you’re fine to socialize with them as long as it’s something you want to do! I don’t think they’d invite you if they didn’t want you there. I have a coworker who’s on my team but manages his own team and is technically higher than me in the office hierarchy that I socialize with frequently outside of work, and it all feels very normal! As long as you enjoy their company and actually want to do whatever activity their doing, I think you’re perfectly fine to accept invitations.

    8. The Tin Man*

      I never do but it is also not really the culture at my current job. One time I invited the colleague I work the closest with and her husband to my apartment for a big Thanksgiving party my fiancee and I throw – that’s about it.

      At my first ever post-college job I felt weird because a lot of the other younger employees hung out together. They invited me to lunch then…didn’t really talk to me. As in I would sit there in complete silence as they talked about things I wasn’t there for and people I didn’t know. It took a while to realize that even if I am shy that was more about them and less about me.

    9. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I personally hang out with varying groups of coworkers outside of work, the typical group is only 4 or 5 people, with occasional larger outings (think everyone in our division is invited, maybe 1/3 attend). These outings with my smaller group of friends are maybe every two months, with the larger gatherings once or twice a year. I don’t think anyone in my office cares one bit if someone never participates or only participates rarely – there are absolutely people in these categories.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I find it helpful when I need to ask people for favors that are more personal, like covering my role while I’m on vacation or sending me a file while I’m offsite, if I’ve spent some human time with them. But also I genuinely enjoy making friends my with coworkers and finds that it improves my job experience. If other people don’t feel the same way, I think that’s fine too! It is unlikely to affect your office success in my experience.

    10. Zephy*

      It sounds like you’re in a more senior role, but not a supervisory one, right? It should be okay for you to come to a happy hour or lunch without it being weird, if none of them actually report to you/you don’t have any real authority over them. If you do have some level of real authority over them in your role, then you’re right to decline the social invitations for as long as that’s the case.

      1. Dave*

        I think you can still safely go to the occasional happy hour or lunch as a supervisor. Just don’t stay as long and maybe buy a round.
        I prefer not to hang out socially with co-workers but going out with the group on occasion does make some work situations a little easier.

    11. Jaid*

      Maybe once a month I go out to dinner with some of the ladies from work. Birthday person gets to choose the place, like a hibachi joint or Outback. Two of them are in my unit, the others are women I known over the years.
      One of us is vegan and others insist on going places where they can get cocktails, but we make it work. Usually, we chit chat about work and family.

    12. ATX Language Learner*

      I used to socialize with coworkers a lot when I was younger (26) and now I do not (32). It caused some drama and other people would want to join in which made it weird if we didn’t want them to. Cliquey? Likely yes.

      I don’t have an issue if others hang outside of work and I lean towards the side that it’s not my business nor do I care what they do as long as it doesn’t affect their work or their professional relationships.

      As some of the other commenters have said, I barely have time for my own friends so I don’t have any interest in developing good friendships at work.

    13. Amethystmoon*

      Only if they also happen to be in my Toastmasters club, or a Toastmasters club and we end up at the same event. I do online gaming a couple of nights a week as well, so the few nights I don’t have anything planned, I use for doing chores.

  20. Update question*

    Hi everyone. About a year ago 3 letters were published here.

    One was from someone who was worried because their new/incoming manager was going to be a nightmare to work with (We’ve heard rumors that our incoming new boss is a nightmare)

    One was from someone asking if a job candidate should be disqualified because they were a reality TV star (Should being on reality TV disqualify a job candidate?)

    And one was from someone whose friend had lied about a job candidate and what a good employee she was (Someone I’ve known for years lied to get me to hire someone terrible she wanted to get rid of)

    I was wondering if there are going to be updates from these letter writers? I’m really curious to know what happened and out of all the letters published here I think about these 3 the most. Alison, could you add these to the list of letter writers you want updates from please? :)

    (Links to the actual letters to follow in a reply.)

    1. Update question*

      We’ve heard rumors that our incoming new boss is a nightmare

      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/weve-heard-rumors-that-our-incoming-new-boss-is-a-nightmare.html

      Should being on reality TV disqualify a job candidate?

      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/should-being-on-reality-tv-disqualify-a-job-candidate.html

      Someone I’ve known for years lied to get me to hire someone terrible she wanted to get rid of

      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/someone-ive-known-for-years-lied-to-get-me-to-hire-someone-terrible-she-wanted-to-get-rid-of.html

    2. Amber Rose*

      The reality TV one got an update. If you search “reality TV” in the site search the update is the first return.

      1. Update question*

        Thanks! Don’t know how I missed that one, but I’m glad I got to find out what happened.

    3. Another Sarah*

      +1 Another person here who wants to see an update to the ‘New boss is a nightmare’ letter.

    4. Liane*

      I think I missed the reality TV update, must go searching. And I’d like to see updates to the other two.

      (In case people new to AAM are reading, Alison runs a lot of update letters during December/winter holidays period. We look forward to them and it lessens her workload.)

  21. Southern Belle who needs advice!*

    Hello, I need some advice about culture in the American workplace. I am early in my career, and very overweight for my height. I am a woman. I am trying to lose weight, but in the mean time, do you still think being overweight will hold me back from professional development and the opportunity to move up? I have read articles in the past that being fat holds you back, and wanted to see if that was still the case? Would anyone be willing to share their experiences with me? Thank you!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ignore the b*stards. Show up as your beautiful self and kick ass, and people will respect you for your work or you’ll keep looking until you find a place that will. If you look at the thinkpieces you’d just stay home all time because apparently women can’t get ahead, mothers can’t get ahead, people who didn’t go to Harvard can’t get ahead, people without personal connections can’t get ahead – and yet, I see leaders in my community showing up every day taking names and getting stuff done and carving out a space for themselves in spite of the cesspool.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        What Sloan said.

        I’m always a fan of people working to be healthier and happier – whether that’s physically, mentally, or emotionally (or other!). Good luck on your journey.

      2. sparkle phone*

        THIS. Look, something might be true on a macro level, when you zoom out and look at the workforce as a whole. But that doesn’t mean anything about YOUR career. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you frame things as, either I have to substantially change something about myself, or I have to accept limits on what I can achieve. Yes, sometimes you will run into someone who, consciously or not, openly or not, will hold your appearance against you. Guess what? You would run into those kinds of people no matter what you weighed, who will take issue with all sorts of random ish about you. You can’t win trying to please everyone.

        As someone who’s in the same boat, some advice: don’t put things off “until I lose weight.” Investing in work clothes that fit and look good, opportunities to meet others or present or whatever’s important in your field. Learn to project (and, ideally, actually feel!!) a confidence that is not rooted in your weight, or your appearance at all. I wonder how much this “fat holds you back” phenomenon is actually how we are taught to think of ourselves and present ourselves (or not) to the world.

      3. Garland not Andrews*

        I agree! What Sloan said!
        I am a woman of pretty serious size and I have not had issues. I prove that I am competent and a great employee and worker. I am respected for what I can accomplish.
        There are places where size may limit professional advancement, but those are places you don’t want to be anyway!

    2. Observer*

      Yes, it will. No one will admit it – you’ll hear all sorts of garbage. It’s not right and it shouldn’t be that way – it’s both immoral and STUPID. But, we know that people can be stupid, and that even mostly good people can be delusional about stuff like this.

      The good news is that weight is not destiny. Yes, it’s going to hold you back with SOME people and with SOME companies. But most people will not be hung up on this. If you’re good at what you do, easy to get along with and confident in yourself and you’re work, you’ll find your place. Confidence is the key, because that’s what keeps you looking till you find your match.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Plus you don’t want to succeed at those companies. They are probably awful in myriad ways. Places that expect women to look a certain way probably have other gender / hetero-normative issues IME.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        I totally agree with Observer. At some places it will hold you back. I also think that those places tend to be places in which your role is customer facing and the company wants to project a certain image to clients. Positions that are about your quality of work, technical knowledge, or output, in which you may never be seen, tend to skew less that way. And confidence is totally key! (And in my opinion, a fantastic wardrobe that fits your body well and allows you to present yourself as a “pulled together” professional doesn’t hurt either)

    3. OtterB*

      I’m not sure you can speak broadly a single American workplace culture. In general, yes, there’s a bias against people who are overweight. My impression is that it’s stronger in industries and organizations where image matters. I think it matters to present yourself well – so, well-fitting, professional clothes, appropriate makeup, etc., but again, the expectations vary a lot by field and location. I am a woman who has been overweight throughout my 40+ year career and am not aware of having been held back by it, but I never wanted to work in a high-profile organization or role anyway.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Appearance in general can help or hurt a career: too tall, too short, too heavy, too skinny, too dark, too pale, big boobs, no boobs, too feminine, too masculine, too old, too young…It shouldn’t be that way, but it is. Be confident in yourself and others will follow (mostly — there’s always going to be trolls).

    5. Catleesi*

      There are always going to be people that are jerks about this, and as someone who is pretty overweight myself I can’t say I don’t worry about it (and my mom specifically told me to which doesn’t help). What I’ve found, and decided, is that I don’t want to work with a bunch of fat-phobic jerks anyway. Even if I wasn’t overweight, I figure do I really want to surround myself with those kinds of people? Focus on doing your job, and doing it well, and workplaces and people that are worth your time and effort won’t think twice about it.

      I’ve had a lot of different jobs and I feel like I’ve excelled at most of them. I can’t say it’s not in the back of my head, especially if I’m meeting new people, or talking to groups, or travelling – but when I’m working with good people I know they are concentrating on my work and not my body. As they should.

      And as someone who has tried, and failed, and tried again to lose weight so many times (and stiiilll hasn’t) – I hope you don’t let whatever happens with your own weight impact your professional goals. I’ve often put off things “until I lose weight”, including jobs/school/etc, and it’s led to me not yet doing things I really want to do in life. I’m not saying this is you – but I think it’s something common among those of us who are bigger because we’re made to feel like we need to look a certain way before we’re allowed to want or have things thinner people do.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I think there’s real fat shaming that goes on in our society, but it’s hardly limited to the workplace, so people who have to deal with this are already going to experience it going about their daily lives – at the grocery store, on vacation, at the doctor’s office, whatever. You might as well go ahead and pursue what you want in the meantime, because it’s not like you’ll be “safe” if you don’t. (Also see: being a woman generally).

        Having said that, my thinnest friends are often just as weight-obsessed and limited by appearances as my larger friends, although I acknowledge that they don’t experience the same societal consequences. But they are still terrified to eat, think obsessively about their weight, feel like their lives would be soo much better if they lost five / ten / twenty pounds, whatever, still limit their own options and choices because of this fear. It is super super sad to me. Especially when my heavier friends express that everything will be so much better when they’re thinner.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I am also very overweight, and I have never had any problems getting a job or advancing in my career. I’m in my 50’s, and working what for me is a dream job — all remote, with a little bit of travel, working with/supporting/implementing software that I’ve been using for years and am very familiar with. I’ve had this job for about a month and a half. I was considering 2 offers, and this company, well, to put it bluntly, upped their offer and threw a crapload of money at me. That, with the opportunity to be all remote, was just too good of a deal to walk away from. And honestly, I’m making more money now than I ever thought I would.

      So for me, it has never been an issue career wise. I also personally have never experienced any sexism or having my input dismissed because I’m a woman. But I do have some pretty specialized expertise, so most people aren’t normally in a position to challenge or dismiss what I say, because they don’t have the same skill set that I do, if that makes sense. I’ve also been told that I have a very “calming” and “competent” demeanor, which gives people confidence that I know what I’m talking about. This isn’t something I’ve deliberately tried to cultivate over the years, it’s a by-product of knowing my sh*t and being confident in my subject matter.

      So, my advice for you — which would be my advice for anyone, regardless or age, size, gender, or anything else –is to make an effort to always present yourself professionally (meaning don’t show up to work in yoga pants and flip-flops), and work hard to learn all aspects of your job so that you’ll be known as a SME or go-to person, or whatever you want to call it.

      And, most importantly, be open to any opportunities that might present themselves. I have an accounting degree, and started my career in Finance. After a few years, I ended up working at a company in the Accounting department, and became the resident expert on the ERP system. That allowed me to move into a more IT-focused career, and it’s what I’m doing now and will do until I retire. It’s not what I imagined for myself, at all. But had I had blinders on, and said, “No, I’m an accountant, not an IT person,” I would have missed out on what is, for the most part, a rewarding and fulfilling career.

    7. LKW*

      I’m overweight. I’m sure there are some people who don’t love working with me because they are judgmental fools.

      My experience, once I prove myself to be patient, smart and on top of my game, no one cares about my weight. I have a good career. I have a very nice salary. It is entirely possible that I’ve missed out on opportunities but maybe if I was slim I would have lost out on more. It’s not something that keeps me up at night.

    8. Fenchurch*

      One thing I would suggest in general as a fellow woman is to ASK for things. It’s not enough to perform well, you need to tell them how awesome you are. You need to ask for more challenging work or more responsibilities if you want them.

      I can’t speak to being overweight, but there are plenty of women in my company who are overweight and very successful. I don’t want to minimize or invalidate the issues that women (and overweight women in particular) face in the workplace, and I definitely could see either or both of those things impacting you. What I want to encourage is you sticking up for yourself. This blog has so many great suggestions for that.

      Good luck, you got this!

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m large stature in terms of height and build, I have never had it hold me back, if anything it gives me more of a presence.

      There will always be bigotry everywhere we go in life and you have to bulldoze through it one way or another.

      Most places I’ve been we’ve had people of all body sizes, it’s never pinged on any radars.

      Those articles are just another form of body shaming and fear mongering.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      To be totally honest, yes, it’s a possibility. That said, a couple things to keep in mind.

      1) Those people are asshats and you don’t want to work for them. The type of management that discriminates against people is crappy management.
      2) I do think this applies more when you get to higher levels. When you’re very first starting your career and in lower level positions, your looks don’t seem to matter quite as much. It seems to be more when you start getting into management levels and leadership positions that they become more of an issue. And this applies to things other than weight. As a woman, wearing makeup, dressing in a certain way, looking “put together” in whatever way that means. I am someone who rarely wears makeup/heels/expensive clothes, etc. Honestly that has hurt me in a few situations, but those weren’t good situations that I wanted to stay in.
      3) Be healthy! You don’t need to be a stick figure or something. You know what will help you move up more than losing weight? Confidence. Don’t ever sell yourself or your work short because you’re self conscious about the way you look. Trust me, it goes a very long way!

    11. Katie the Fed*

      If we told you “yes, it’s going to be hell out there” would that change anything for you? How does this information help you in your journey? Or are you just looking for reassurance (which is totally ok!)?

      I’ve been fat and thin in my professional life. Both come with baggage and complications, honestly. When I was a skinny young thing, I got a LOT of harassment and inappropriate comments and looks from male coworkers. Now I’m fatter and I’m more invisible – or at least I’m probably outside of the “f**kable” category for lack of a better term, which is kind of nice! I appreciate being known for my brain and my skills and knowing people aren’t talking to me for other reasons.

      I’m fat now. I don’t *think* it’s held me back professionally because I’m doing pretty well, but there’s no way to know for sure. Nobody has said anything to me ever about it though.

    12. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      A) Body size or other physical characteristics shouldn’t matter, but
      B) …society is messed up and so it does sometimes, but
      C) I second posters above that professional presentation and relentless competence lead to success– wear well-tailored clothes that fit and flatter, and consider dressing on the more formal side of your environment. And of course, kick a** at your actual job.

    13. Southern Belle who needs advice!*

      Thank you everyone for your kind and honest responses! I know I need to work on my confidence, I have been told I am amazing at my job, but I just wanted to get a perspective to see if my weight would hold me back from developing further.

    14. Mellow*

      I am also very overweight, but most people have been kind in that I can tell they are treating me the same as they would if I were thin. That said, I’m still trying to decide whether someone who walked by me yesterday called me an “elephant” under breath, without provocation. Sure sounded like it.

      Nevertheless, with rare exception, I don’t feel my weight has hurt me professionally. However, I do think being very overweight gives an impression that I might not be able to physically keep up with my job, or that I might call in sick a lot, or otherwise be unreliable somehow due to carrying excess weight. Also, I feel I send a very clear message that I am stressed beyond belief, which I’m not, although I was, and that’s how I became overweight; that I eat my stress or am self-medicating, and it can beg the question about whether I can handle everyday work pressures, or if there’s something going on in my personal life that eventually will bleed into my professional life.

      What’s unfair is that many of the people who would have those impressions seem to do so as they ground out their cigarettes and gulp both of their 9:00 am whiskey sours – coping mechanisms that can be fairly well suppressed, unlike obesity.

      I am trying to lose weight and it’s tough but it’s for my health and my health alone. I look forward to feeling better, and, frankly, looking better and more like my true self. If I may humble brag, I have unusally large eyes, blue, with long lashes, and when I was thin I’d get all kinds of sideways glances from complete strangers and delighted smiles from babies. I miss that, vain as it might sound, because now the reactions I get from children are either fear or disdain, and that cuts like the sharpest of knives. Fortuately, I don’t work around children, so it’s not something I’m around constantly, but I do look forward to the day when my weight isn’t an issue in any context.

      1. Mellow*

        To clarify, I feel my weight has given certain impressions about possibly unreliability at places where I’ve interviewed.

    15. Chaordic One*

      Yes, there are workplaces where you will be discriminated because of your weight, but there are also a lot of places where they will value you for the work you do and what you bring to the workplace. That said, women in general are judged much more harshly than men (especially for their appearance), and someone who is overweight is usually going to be judged more harshly than someone who is not. I hope this doesn’t sound harsh, or old-fashioned, but you can counteract this to a degree by dressing to project a professional image. Thin, attractive people can more easily get away with coming to work dressed like a slob.

      Be clean and well-groomed. Bathe regularly and wash your hair. Wear clean clothes that fit and are comfortable. Make sure that your clothes are ironed or at least not wrinkled. Business casual dress-codes are especially challenging. If you wear jeans, it is important that they fit. Also, pay attention to your footwear. Not everyone will agree with me, but even if they are permitted, I really don’t think flip flops are a good look, and personally, I think that leather or suede shoes project a better image than sneakers.

      Then, do good work and don’t be afraid to tell your bosses the great work you do. (Alison has some great advice about how to do that on this website.)

  22. Way to the Dawn*

    I had an interview for a position last summer with an organization that I love (I interned there before) where the recruiter heavily implied I was going to the next round but then proceeded to completely ghost me – didn’t answer my thank you email or follow up. I now have an interview for a different position in the same company today with the exact same recruiter! How should I handle this? Do I just pretend we haven’t talked before?

    1. 867-5309*

      I wouldn’t address the ghosting. Instead, I’d just say something like, “I’m glad to reconnect and still very excited about working for the company again.”

    2. Zephy*

      I think you’d be safe saying something lighthearted like “Hi, it’s good to see you again,” and then if they don’t remember you, you can mention that you interviewed with them last year for something. Play it off like “oh, isn’t it a small world? Fancy that!” Don’t bring up the ghosting, don’t take an accusatory tone or anything. That’s all if you decide you want to bring it up; if the recruiter remembers you, they’ll say something, but if they don’t you’re safe pretending that you’re strangers.

    3. CM*

      First, forget the ghosting. I doubt it was personal.
      Second, acknowledge that you interviewed last year, and remind the recruiter in a straightforward way. Something like, “After interning here last summer and interviewing for Position X last year, I’m still very interested in working for this organization again. I’m excited to be considered for Position Y.”

  23. Sparrow*

    How big of a deal is it if a candidate pre-scripts their interview responses? My team recently held a round of video interviews, and when we skyped one candidate, she said her camera didn’t work and wanted to move forward with audio only. She apparently hadn’t tested her equipment ahead of time and she wasn’t apologetic about not being able to follow through, both of which are red flags for this particular position, but at the time I figured, whatever, these things happen.

    Anyway, we moved forward with audio alone, and I quickly became suspicious that she’s reading her responses (very formal and scripted language, minimal inflection, slightly off-topic from the actual question asked, etc.) And then we very audibly heard her turning pages as she spoke, which pretty much confirmed for me and a couple of colleagues on the call that she wasn’t talking off the cuff.

    Our boss, who was predisposed toward this candidate going in, insists that we can’t possibly know whether she was trying to cheat the system, and even if she did pre-write her responses, who cares? Meanwhile, my colleagues and I all reacted negatively, since we now have no idea if she can think on her feet, and it just feels like a massive breach of interview etiquette. And, honestly, it made us a bit suspicious that the problems with her camera were staged. Overall, we’re pretty down on her as a candidate. Is my boss right – are we overreacting here?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If it sounded as if she was reading the responses (very formal and scripted language, minimal inflection) and the answers themselves weren’t that great (slightly off-topic from the actual question asked), does it matter if she actually read them or not? The deliver was bad, and the answers weren’t on-topic. I think it’s less about breaching interview etiquette and more about just not having great answers (in delivery or content).

      Were you all unable to ask a question she hadn’t already anticipated with a written-down answer?

      1. Murphy*

        I kind of agree with this. Imagine it was a phone interview and you couldn’t her pages turning. Just focus on her answers and delivery. If they weren’t great, they weren’t great.

      3. Sparrow*

        Well, my boss doesn’t care about the delivery (she’s an academic, which means hearing people read directly from a paper is normal to her, even though this isn’t an academic job). And the answers would’ve been pretty good, had we been asking slightly different questions, and that’s what my boss has focused on. We didn’t have much time to probe further with follow up questions, which was my immediate instinct.

        Actually, now that I type this out, I think the core of the issue is that professional and academic staff are prioritizing different things. That insight may be useful as we go into in-person interviews…

      5. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It matters because for one thing, maybe she didn’t write those responses. If someone else helped her, the whole interview is now useless. (Well, it’s useful for knowing you should reject her.)

        But also, you presumably are looking for someone who can think on their feet, and are comparing her to candidates who had to do that.

      1. Drax*

        and if you are very concerned about it being scripted, I’d also prepare a question or two that’s a situational one. Simple ones not elaborate but specific, just enough to see if she’s scripting or thinking.

        Usually the ones I see brought up are “how would you handle situation X” where X is directly related to the role that they would see a lot. I found in customer service/facing roles a random customer related situation like an unreasonably upset customer you had recently, or as I work in operations and a lot of them I see are “Sales person A need Product X rush for a big-dollar customer, Supplier is out of stock what would you do next to fill this order?”

        1. Drax*

          And I forgot to add, ask follow ups. Like they say “go to the alternate supplier” and you go “they’re out to, what’s the next step?” It’s excellent at seeing thinking without the stupid how many balls fit in this room.

          In my line of work this is pretty common in interviews to test how people think and how they would source things and make it happen as that is the majority of the job, but if that’s not relevant to the role it may not be the best way to do it.

    3. kbeers0su*

      I don’t think that I’d refer to this as “cheating the system” because it’s not like there were set answers to your questions and she someone got the answer manual.

      Also, there are legitimate reasons for (I’m guessing here) why she might have not tested her equipment/said there was an issue in order to not have to do a video chat but rather just an audio chat. Maybe she has anxiety? Or she hates being on TV? Or she’s new professionally? Or she got a really awful haircut? Or she’s concerned about looks being a factor in the decision? There are other reasons (besides “cheating the system”) that she might not have been truthful about what’s happening here.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yeah, it’s not “cheating the system”, per se, but it’s still an attempt to have an unfair advantage because the other candidates presumably did not write out and read scripted answers during the review, so you can’t really compare apples to apples.

          1. serenity*

            And if her answers were written by someone else (which Alison suggested above, and which may be a real possibility), then she very definitely cheated the system. You just cannot know after this one frustrating and not-ideal interview.

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I think you really can’t make the call without meeting her in person. Now, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with preparing, but you obviously don’t want to read from a script.

      Last time I was interviewing, I found a list of situational interview questions, and thought of answers for each one. Just to solidify it in my mind, I wrote each one down, and then made a few quick notes for each to jog my memory. That let me still have an answer, but not one that sounded rehearsed.

    5. Lily B*

      Possibly. A lot of people get very nervous on camera in general, and there could be a complicating factor like her speaking another first language or being more junior. It’s also possible she really *did* have camera issues, and was just referring to her notes throughout the interview. IMO, whether it’s worth continuing to push back really depends on two things:

      1. How important is it that the person in this role comfortable speaking off-the-cuff in high-pressure situations? For example, this would be a deal-breaker in sales or public relations, and you would be right to be concerned. But for a lot of functions, these situations are pretty rare.

      2. Do you have a reason to doubt her skill or credentials? If the (possibly scripted) answers were responses to typical interview stuff like “describe how you handled a challenge at work”, etc., that’s not all that concerning. But if this is a highly technical role that requires a deep level of knowledge, and you think she might have written a script because she *doesn’t actually know* what she’s talking about, that’s definitely worth pushing back on, or at least suggesting detailed reference checks or an in-person interview.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      I agree with both comments above. Given you can’t prove anything, all that you have at the moment is that her answers didn’t seem natural, and were slightly off-topic. But it’s also the fact that your boss seems convinced by the candidate. So I think an in-person interview would really put this to the test.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Even in-person can be a challenge though. I once attended a job talk by a candidate for assistant professor. While the candidate didn’t read directly off a paper, she had clearly memorized a script and it showed in the stilted way she presented. At one point she got off track and repeated the last line entirely, exactly as she had before, in order to find her place again. That by itself wasn’t a disqualifier, but she did not compare well to the other candidates.

        I think it depends on the role as to whether scripted answers are acceptable. But the OP mentions that not testing equipment and not being apologetic about the difficulties that created were red flags, and this likely added to the overall perception that the candidate was not a strong one. Having notes, even detailed ones, to help answer standard questions is probably pretty common. Not tailoring those written answers to the actual question asked isn’t good.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Well, but scripting and practicing answers is actually the advice in Alison’s guide. I don’t see that as much of a problem on itself. The problem is that the candidate is being awkward and weird not that they practiced answers.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            You’re right and I should have specified that rehearsing an answer (or presentation) is not only fine, it’s good practice. The bad thing is sticking so close to a script that you’re either reading it straight off the page in the interview or reciting it from heart, and not modifying at all for the current situation.

    7. Spool of Lies*

      Your question is really interesting because I recently did a “one-way video interview” where I had to record my answers to questions in under one minute but had unlimited attempts and unlimited time between questions. After seeing the question, I quickly wrote the main points for my response and then read my response while recording. (I did this by putting the notepad I wrote the response in next to the laptop camera at the top of the screen so I would still be “looking” at the interviewer.) I didn’t read my responses monotonously or verbatim but it didn’t occur to me that interviewers might not want a prepared response like mine (in this case, it seems they did because I had a follow up interview in person last week).

      Is it possible that the person you interviewed was doing something similar, i.e., quickly prepping answers in between questions or referring to prepared notes about her experience while you were interviewing her? I can see how you might be skeptical about her ability to think on her feet but interviews are nerve wracking! I feel much less anxious if I can at least prepare a little, the same way I rehearse answers for common interview questions before an in-person interview.

      1. Sparrow*

        I think that’s a bit different because that system *assumes* you’re not speaking extemporaneously! In fact, I’d expect you to plan your answer carefully, given that you have the opportunity to do so. (A friend of mine once had an interview like the one you describe, and it sounded horrible – I do not envy you.)

        I’m not at ALL opposed to practicing responses ahead of time or jotting down a thought or two right before you start speaking. I actually practice quite a lot before an interview, but there’s a difference in having your thoughts ordered and feeling comfortable speaking on the subject and having a full-on script. I do think that, for some people, there’s a fine line between the two and it can take practice to find the right balance. I suspect that may be part of this.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      I wouldn’t love this in a candidate either… I wouldn’t classify this as “cheating” but yes, it removes your ability to determine how well a candidate can think on their feet, it blurs your evaluation of their communication skills, and overall leaves a weird impression since this is just not how interviews are supposed to go. But a lot of people also prepare and practice responses prior to interviews, so it’s not like most people are really truly answering off the cuff. I bring a notepad to interviews and will write down certain things ahead of time that I want to make sure I mention or ask (but I don’t read them verbatim).

      But that doesn’t mean they might not be a strong candidate still. They could be excessively nervous and this is a way for them to handle anxiety, and it might work extremely well for them. Depending on the job duties, it may never be an issue. An in person interview would be ideal in this situation, or at the very least a follow up video interview where you insist that she confirm her equipment is working. Also prepare some non-standard questions and see how that goes.

    10. LJay*

      I wouldn’t be concerned about cheating.

      But I would be concerned about fit for the overall role.

      It sounds like from your comments that not testing the equipment ahead of time and not being apologetic about follow through being a red flag for this position, that doing video calls or presentations with clients might be an actual part of the job.

      If that’s the case, I would say that this is enough to show that she is not a fit for the position.

      And also I would be a bit concerned that maybe she lied about her equipment not working so she could read off answers without being found out.

      Having notes for interviews to be able to refer to is normal and okay. Lying about it to hide it is not.

      Not being polished at doing video calls is normal and okay. If it’s going to be part of your job, then it’s not.

    11. Jerm*

      I interviewed a candidate with 2 other team members over the phone who appeared to be shuffling papers on the other end and not immediately answering questions. I thought she just over prepared by developing responses to possible questions. My coworkers focused more on her use of “I” and dismissed her as arrogant. I was surprised because I didn’t think her arrogant; she seemed to have absorbed much of the interview advice out there.

  24. Morning Glory*

    About a month ago, the head of my department asked me if I’d be interested in a new position that they were working with HR to create. I was non-committal and they told me it would be posted broadly but they really hoped I would apply. Now, the job has been posted. It requires a B.A. and 5+ years of experience and will have 3 direct reports, but it has an entry-level title. And I really mean, entry-level – the only other person in the department with this title was hired fresh from doing an undergrad internship with us when they graduated college.

    I’m qualified but was already leaning against applying before it posted because I don’t think it would be the right move for my career goals. But I also kind of want to point out that this title is really inappropriate for this role. Should I bring up the title if the head of department asks again me whether I’ll apply, or just stick to the vaguer ‘not the right move for me’?

    1. CatCat*

      If the title were different, would you be interested? If not, I’d just leave the title thing alone since that wouldn’t change your mind. “Thanks for thinking of me! I thought about it and I’d want to continue in my current role right now.”

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      If you wouldn’t apply for it even with a title change, leave it alone. Use your capital for something that makes your own life better.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Another idea is to apply — provided you like the actual job — and IF you are offered the job, negotiate a title change before accepting the offer; applying does not mean you have to accept. If you aren’t interested even with a title change there’s no need to alert them; they may come to realize it once they start receiving resumes and find that they aren’t getting candidates that match what they are looking for.

  25. Anonymous Trans Guy*

    I came out to my supervisor who’s very sweet and very clueless. I asked her to check to see if our insurance providers cover costs related to medical transition (hormone replacement therapy, top surgery) and she just got back to me with “I looked at their website and they said they’re committed to diversity!”

    So it looks like I’ll be spending some time on the phone with the insurance company today!

      1. valentine*

        The benefits breakdown should be available online and via your HR. If not, get them to mail it to you. Don’t rely on anyone’s word, chat/email if possible, and note the names/times of phone contacts.

    2. ten ton trucks*

      Good luck! If you know your plan name and such, you can see about getting your plan brochure from their website (mine’s available, but I don’t know how widespread that is, if it’s a law or whatever), and that info should have it spread out what they cover and to what extent.

      1. TiffanyAching*

        If you can’t find the right answer on the website/by calling the insurance company (I know the call center for one of our insurance companies routinely gives out incorrect/incomplete information), your HR department might have a specific person at the insurance company you could contact to talk about individual scenarios.

    3. Anonny*

      If you’re in the US there’s specific legal requirements for transgender coverage under the ACA and there’s a good chance that your healthcare provider will have information online to specifically show that they’re meeting those requirements, which was the case with my new healthcare company when I switched jobs.

      (Also I know when I called my healthcare provider to ask about top surgery coverage the person I spoke with was able to answer my questions in a <10 minute conversation- I hope your phone call goes equally smoothly and you're able to get the information you need!)

    5. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I think it’s normally the responsibility of the employee to investigate what benefits your insurance provides. Then if you find out it’s not a benefit, you could address with HR that they should add it.

      Usually there’s a phone number on the back of my card.

      I wouldn’t WANT my boss to be involved in my use of a medical benefit, and health insurance is so complicated I wouldn’t expect them to know or take it as a sign of insensitivity that they don’t.

      1. CM*

        Agreed, this is between you and your insurance provider. Your supervisor should not be involved.

        Make sure everything you get from your insurance provider is in writing and that you keep a record of it. I also agree with Valentine’s advice about of keeping records for each phone call listing the name of the person you talked to, the date and time, and what they told you. But regardless of what they tell you, make sure you have something officially in writing from the insurance company.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yep. You’ll also, when you get to that stage, want your doctor/surgeon’s office to get a formal preauthorization from the insurance company before they schedule any surgeries, and they’ll probably do that on their own accord anyway.

          1. Shannon*

            I work with insurances for a hospital system. We always, always get pre-auths on our own. They require information the patient would not have access to.

      2. Anonymous Trans Guy*

        When I initially came out to my supervisor, she said something that was deeply but unintentionally transphobic, and when we spoke about it later, she apologized and offered to check with our insurance carrier on my behalf.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      Congrats on coming out, and on deciding to transition! How exciting. Let’s hope insurance does cover the costs. Good luck!

    7. Mediamaven*

      With respect, it’s not really your supervisors job to answer questions about that. Employers provide the insurance plan but the responsibility for helping you navigate your own coverage, plan and healthcare is your responsibility. Hope it works out.

      1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

        When I initially came out to my supervisor, she said something that was deeply but unintentionally transphobic, and when we spoke about it later, she apologized and offered to check with our insurance carrier on my behalf.

          1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

            I’m not sure why you’re nitpicking my word choice, here. My boss asked if she could provide assistance to me and offered to do a few things, including reaching out to the insurance company. Of the choices, I asked her to do that specific thing.

      2. PennyLane*

        Agree 100%.

        Anon Trans Guy, just because your supervisor offered to do it, doesn’t mean it’s their responsibility. Most managers know just as little as their employees about what specifically is covered by an insurance provider and it’s not part of their job to know that. Nor does it make sense for them to look into this because you are the one who can answer questions as they relate to your situation.

        1. Anonymous Trans Guy*

          I shared this anecdote because I was excited about having come out at work, and I thought it was very sweet that my boss offered to do this nice thing for me, and I thought the way she shared her research was funny and endearing. I’m in HR and my supervisor is typically the contact person for coverage questions because she works pretty closely with the insurance company.

          Next time, I’ll front load all the context to save everyone all the back-and-forth ;)

          1. ..Kat..*

            Well, ATG, it was kind of her to offer to check this out for you. And, given that she was trying to make up to you for a thoughtless comment, it was kind of you to allow her to try to atone.

            That said, this is a very good example of why people should do their checking with their insurance companies. Especially since other people won’t understand exactly what one truly needs.

            Good luck with surgeries. I hope you have great insurance coverage. I hope your surgeries go smoothly and your recovery is easy.

            As a nurse, I want to recommend that you look for a hospital that specializes in this surgery. These surgeries (and their recovery!) are managed better by a hospital that understands the specific needs of trans people and treats them with respect. I hope you have such a specialty place near you.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Oops, I completely missed that you are in HR and that this is part of your supervisor’s job! I apologize.

              I am glad that you were able to come out at work successfully. Being able to be your true self around people you work with (and therefore spend a significant amount of time with) is great.

  26. DC*

    Happy Friday!

    My org (in addition to its other issues which have me hunting) recently started a new junior employee. He’s two weeks new and already talking about feeling like they are bored in the work. I’m struggling not to say “I told you so” to the coworkers who pushed for him.

    I have no way to change his workload, the work they are given is what we needed someone to do and hired for. I’m mentally checked out due to everything else, but don’t want that to effect how I treat/manage this employee. Any thoughts on how to approach their boredom?

    1. ten ton trucks*

      Let it alone. His boredom isn’t your problem and it’s not something you can fix. You can direct him gently to trainings or other materials, but it’s not your problem to solve.

      1. valentine*

        If you really want, you can tell him acing the allegedly boring stuff is the first rung on the ladder.

    2. Lily B*

      “Sorry to hear you’re bored, Braydenn. If you’re looking for more to do, I have six TPS reports that need proofreading and printing, and I could use someone to get on the horn with IT about this computer issue I’m having. Think you have time for that?”

      Either he will actually appreciate having more to do and help you out in the process, or he will quickly learn to stop complaining about being “bored.”

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’m a big fan of brutal honesty in this kind of situation — and it has the benefit of actually being helpful to the other person too! Say something like, “I want to be really up-front with you that this is the job and it’s not something that will change any time soon. If you’re bored, do you want to take a few days to think about whether this is the right role for you? If it’s not the right match for you, it’s better for both of to figure it out sooner rather than later.”

  27. SQL Coder Cat*

    Okay, I need to hear other people’s contractor horror stories so I can know I’m not alone.

    I have been working on a very complicated software integration for just over a year now. It will launch in nine phases over six to eight weeks, and the first launch is next Thursday. We have weekly check in meetings with the project team every Thursday. One of our standard agenda items is upcoming out of office times. We had a few days in April on the calendar for several team members (ours and the contractor’s) to attend our major industry event.

    And then yesterday, at our check in, the project manager on the contractor side announced that the lead developer there is attending four additional conferences and then taking a vacation, so he will be out of the office starting next Wednesday (the day before our first launch!) until the third week of May. They have assigned a ‘new lead developer’ to the project, who has not been involved up until this point (and wasn’t even at the check in meeting).

    I am just livid that they couldn’t be bothered to mention this earlier, plus stressed out about launching with a ‘lead developer’ who is not familiar with the project.

    So… what’s your worst contractor horror story?

    1. CDM*

      A last minute absence of eight weeks reads to me like a cover story for a medical leave of absence that the contractor wants to keep quiet. (sudden decision to attend four back to back conferences? and it got approved?)

      Not that helps in any way in dealing with your launch stress. Hope it goes well for you.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Actually, it sort of does- that would be much more understandable, and this would be a legitimate reason for them not to tell us what is actually going on. I’m supposed to meet up with him at the conference we knew about, if he’s not there I think that’ll confirm it.

    2. Lora*

      Right now? Can I just tell you, (puts on Clerks) I’m not even supposed to BE here!

      Contractor is one we have worked with many many times successfully. Contractor had a crystal clear RFP and scope of work and the pilot study report and its associated raw data. I did the data hand-off, was supposed to be finished for a while, just watch the results. They did their midpoint presentation last week and it was horrible. Awful, not at all what we expected given their previous work: simple math doesn’t add up, layout doesn’t meet code, obvious shoddy work. After much wrangling, it turns out the site leads threw out all the pilot work we had done already and told Contractor, “we are building an empire, we need the Taj Mahal with bells on”. So Contractor did exactly that, but on a 2-week time scale instead of a normal time scale, and that’s why it sucked out loud. Instead of the Taj Mahal they got the Winchester Mystery House, basically.

      First site leads tried to blame me. Corporate shouted them down on that point, as did my boss and one of my colleagues: you had reports, you had presentations, you had all this explained to you and you slapped your OWN names all over it, you OWN this. Now they are trying to blame Contractor. Contractor says hey, we did what we were told and here is what we were told is the scope! It was a totally different scope than the one which we documented they did in fact bid on. Now site leads and Contractor are taking turns trying to not get fired and blame someone else instead of moving forward. Corporate and I are both ready to fire the whole boiling of them, sell the site real estate and relocate all their work to another site.

    3. Mbarr*

      My first experience of working with contractors was for a multinational rollout of Finance software across the globe. I had to document how to use the new software to do financial accruals. Fine. I ask the contractor how, I document it, I send it to him for approval and he approves it.

      Contractor goes on a 6 week vacation (out of the country)… And that’s when we learn that NOTHING I documented was correct. Dude was so overwhelmed trying to get work done before his vacation that he pretty much didn’t bother reading what I wrote.

      It took another 3 months of internal folks to get even close to having the process/steps documented (mainly because doing accruals was a new ask for the team, not to mention all the snafus that happened when we launched the new software).

    4. JokersandRogues*

      -The one who changed the password to the Production Reporting server so everything broke and no one knew what the old password was so we had to update everything with the new password

      -The one who transferred our entire Version Control system to an elderly laptop while he made changes on the server to “improve” things, then broke the server such that it couldn’t be transferred back

      -The one who deleted the Accounting jobs in a server that hadn’t been backed up (this led to the Tech director being fired for not backing things up properly.) (And the Accounting head who had no visible personality came down to IT and screamed at the IT VP for 20 minutes which we could all hear because you could hear everything)

      That was all the same guy in his first/last two weeks. The contracting company had to send another contractor for free to work on fixing on all the stuff that was broken which took two months.

    5. Windchime*

      Our company hired a contractor, “Chris”. Chris was supposed to do some C# coding that would provide some back-end functionality on our mission-critical software. I think the project was supposed to last 3 months or something. Periodically, there would be a touch-base to see how the project was progressing and Chris would show screenshots, etc, but would always have a reason why their code was not checked in. (Red flag — someone should have INSISTED on seeing the code). At the end of the project, the team finally made Chris check in their code and there was…….nothing. No real functionality at all, just a front end interface and a bunch of crappy, do-nothing code behind it. The local team had to work all weekend, around the clock, to try to get something functioning by the deadline.

      The funny thing about this was that, when it was known that Chris was the contractor that was going to be hired, one of the project managers on a different team spoke up and said that he had worked with Chris at a previous company and that Chris had a terrible reputation for not producing. The PM’s warning was ignored and Chris was brought on, with results that could have been totally avoided.

  28. Almost the last rat*

    Welp. The ship that is my workplace continues to sink. Someone else gave notice this week, which now means we’ve lost all but two of the people here a year ago, including me.

    If I thought leadership had any plan for bailing us out, I’d be able to deal with the sense that this is temporary, but I really don’t think they do. I think they are going to put off planning for a year until new leadership comes in, which means it will take two for anything to take effect. Which is a really long time to ask a small staff to hobble along like this. Also, it’s getting so sad and lonely!

    I set up a job alert when I heard the news. I’m not desperate to get out yet but I’ll grab any rope that comes in my direction.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This totally happened to me in this job. Everyone on my hiring committee was gone within a month of my start date, lol. The only people left are the leadership roles that create the problem and they CLEARLY don’t see it. They’re always saying how hard it is to hire and retain staff but have zero self awareness. It comes out as “kids these days” hahaha.

    2. DataGirl*

      This happened in my last job, but it was within 3 months. Team of 6 went down to 2 (me and manager) because the place was so totally incompetent and there were some really nightmare people in the organization. I left at the 6 month mark.

  29. anonymoushiker*

    Any suggestions for how to keep motivation going when you’re in a slump in the job hunt? I haven’t had requests for interviews in a full month and I’d like to think my resume and cover letter aren’t *awful* (i list accomplishments and show skill sets/traits/etc in cover letters). I’m trying to transition out of office management and it is not going well.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Find something else that gives you joy and purpose. For me it was volunteering while I was searching for just the right fit.

      1. Doug Judy*

        I’ll second this. I accepted a job about two months after a very lengthy and emotionally draining job search. I’m an excellent baker so when I was feeling especially down I would make some fancy cupcakes for a friend. I always felt better because I felt I accomplished something. I did volunteer too. Another thing is if you can take a break from job searching, do it. I unfortunately did not have the luxury of stopping as the job I was in was ending.

        Also make sure you are using the same verbiage in your resume/cover letter as the job description. Applicant tracking systems often scan for key works, so if if the job description says “client” and your resume says “customer” that could be an issue.

        Finally, don’t give up. I had many months of interviews, then no interviews, then getting to the final round thinking “This is it!!” and then being rejected. It sucked. A lot. But I eventually did get an offer and I am confident this is where I was meant to be. I’m very happy with my new role, but more importantly the team I’m on and the company as a whole are exactly what I was looking for.

  30. Libby*

    Today is my last day at my job. It is also, coincidentally, my mom’s last day at her job! On Monday, I start my new full-time job in a career field I enjoy, while she flies out to somewhere to receive training before she starts a 3-month temporary research position. I’m really excited for my new job, but also nervous that my mom won’t find something permanent before her 3-month position ends. She’s applied to so many jobs and been to so many interviews, but nothing. She has health issues, no retirement, and no savings… So I’m anxious for her to find something that’s a good fit for her, quickly.

    Any advice on how I can support her over the next three months and help her use those three months to find a new 30-40 hour/week position?

    1. 867-5309*

      Of course it’s nice to help someone you love and you can do that by recommending sites like Ask A Manager, reviewing resumes, sharing job opportunities and so forth.

      But also, you are not responsible for your mom. I’m only saying that in case you need to hear it. She is an adult and is ultimately responsible for her choices. You should support and love and encourage, but don’t feel you have a responsibility in her finding a job, even if you’re in the same or similar field.

      1. Libby*

        Thank you. I appreciate hearing it, but I’m also anticipating needing to care for her in her impending retirement… so I’d like for her to be employed for as much of her remaining non-retirement years as she has left. She is interested in maybe moving into my field, though, so I have been suggesting entry level jobs in my field. I know it’s ultimately up to her, but it’s hard because I’ve had so much success and I’ve been watching her struggle for so long.

        1. valentine*

          The stake you have it in means its best you keep out. Are there no options for assisted living or her rooming with someone else? I see encroachment here: you into her employment status and her into your field, and that doesn’t bode well. She’s…not looking to work for your employer, is she? If so, warn her about eggs/baskets.

          1. Libby*

            No, she’s not trying to work for my employer– I have no interest in working with my mom! But I also do not want my mother to live in assisted living (nor does she want that), at least not yet– she’s quite young, but she’s got chronic illness, and that means… Life isn’t fun and she feels older than she is. So for a while at least, she needs to maintain a career so she can support herself until it’s time for her to actually retire.

        2. 867-5309*

          I wonder if one way of encouraging her is to remind her that she raised YOU. So while her career isn’t what she hoped, she clearly imparted upon you things she wished she had done differently – and what worked. We identify so much with our careers that sometimes being reminder there is more can make a difference.

          1. Libby*

            I should be clear that this is really coming from me… My mom hasn’t asked me for this help, but she’s my mom, and I want to help, and she needs it. And I want her to take care of herself for a while longer before she has to live with me.

            I’m just not sure how to share what I know about getting a job when I’m so close to the issue– I don’t know if I can? But I don’t know if there’s other resources I should be referring her to. If it were a friend, I’d be able to offer resume critique and role-play interviews and stuff like that, but I don’t think she’d be able to see it for what it’s worth coming from her daughter, if that makes sense.

    2. Koala dreams*

      You can support her by offering her a break from the job search worries. Go for a walk or have a coffee now and then, and talk about non-work topics. Good luck to both of you!

  31. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello, friends, and happy Friday from the Hellmouth! I hope today finds you well.

    Some of you may have seen my very late post last week, and may have seen that McGruff was supposed to get a talking to from my boss that might have been anything from a verbal counseling to an actual write up. Well, that wound up not happening… because my boss learned of something else and put those plans on pause.

    So, apparently a Freshly box for former residents was delivered to an apartment where they no longer live. McGruff, who was moving a new resident into the apartment, saw the box, scooped it, (allegedly) made one token call to the former tenants and, when she did not get them, decided she was going to have a nice big box of meals and took the package home. I saw her leaving with the box and asked if she had something delivered to the office, and she quickly blew through the above explanation. When I indicated that she should not just be taking something/pressed to see if Boss knew about it, she got kind of crappy/aggressive with me and gave me a non-answer that led me to believe that Boss signed off on her taking it. Um. It turns out this was not the case. And when my boss found out, she went through this whole elaborate thing where she blocked her cell number so it wouldn’t come up on the office caller ID and pretended to be the company calling to ask about the package so she could then ask us if we knew anything about a Freshly box. McGruff said yes, and when my boss asked her if she RTSed it, McGruff got very aggro and crappy (with Boss! a tyrant who WILL DESTROY YOU) over how OF COURSE she took the box home with her and OF COURSE she is eating the meals because otherwise they would have been thrown out. My boss just nodded and excused herself… to go and secretly take pictures of the remaining meals that McGruff had stashed in the fridge (because she brought a few back to the office for lunches) and to call HR.

    Last night at close she told both me and The Good Leasing Consultant that HR was telling her what they had decided she should do with McGruff this morning. I don’t think this is going to go well for her. In all honesty, I feel kind of weird about it. McGruff is a terrible employee and coworker, and she stole someone’s fancy box of food, so… yeah, if she gets fired I guess it’s not like it would be unwarranted? But my boss never once addressed any of the performance issues with McGruff or set expectations with her. I tried to, but even though I’m a supposedly a supervisor I don’t have any power and McGruff views me as an equal or less than, so it didn’t have the same effect. And this week Boss kept telling The Good Leasing Consultant that she thinks McGruff ruins the office “vibe” and “look” and that seems kind of Mean Girls? But, on the other hand, McGruff repeatedly lies, actively dodges work, messes up the work she does do very badly, and STOLE SOMEONE’S MAIL. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Whatever is going to go down is supposed to happen within the hour, so I guess I can update in the comments. Right now Boss is most concerned with the maintenance supervisor being mad at her because he is the one who recommended McGruff and told my boss to hire her.

    The rest of the week was challenging because poor scheduling meant we were drastically understaffed for a big part of it (basically just me and McGruff Monday through most of Wednesday), which has put me behind for monthly close out activites. Boss took The Good Leasing Consultant to an “all day leasing seminar” on Wednesday with a “quick stop afterwards to buy some materials suggested in the seminar”, but a quick check of the class website revealed it was actually only 9:30am-12:30pm, so I was pretty peeved when they came back just after 5pm. But! The Good Leasing Consultant later told me that Boss talked to him extensively about the microphones in the office and about recorded conversations she has listened to while she dragged him out shopping. She also told him explicitly that he was not allowed to tell anyone else in the office about the existence of the microphones et al. If he is willing to go on the record with that we can probably go to HR about the surveillance crap and they might actually do something, so cross your fingers. He’s got a small kid and possibly a baby on the way, though, so he is taking time to think over whether or not he wants to risk it. I can’t exactly blame him for being cautious.

    Job hunting continues! I might have an in for an Office Coordinator position that I am applying for, and I think I’ve really nailed some good cover letters, so here’s hoping for the best!

    1. Amber Rose*

      I am amazed at your ability to have any sort of positive attitude through all this. :O

      Fingers and toes are still crossed for you getting out of there.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Well, if I’m being honest, I’m not always able to be positive. And sometimes, like yesterday, I need to go home and make two grilled cheeses for lunch and hug my dog in order to face the rest of the workday. But I *have* to get out sooner or later… it’s just a numbers game at some point.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I mean, I figured that. But if I were in your shoes I’m not sure I could be positive ever.

          I’m glad you have a dog to hug.

      1. ..Kat..*

        And, if it was mail (as in delivered by the United States Postal Service), that is a federal offense. And, it wasn’t “just mail”, it was an actual product worth money!

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Any news on the university positions? Hoping the best for you, always!

      You’re very kind about McGruff. I might feel a pang, but behavior that bad, it would be fleeting. You can’t save other people from themselves.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Still up for two (both positions I was really interested in!) and two more that I’m really qualified for (one of which I may have a contact with) just got posted! I’m hopeful.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          And you’re right. My boyfriend knew I felt kind of bad/weirdly-responsible-even-though-I’m-not-responsible and reminded me that you can’t teach people basic judgement.

          1. Bob Bob Bobbin*

            Because it is so dysfunctional and your boss irrational you are starting to have sympathetic views of your fellow prisoners facing the arbitrary punishment. It is like the boss spins a wheel to determine what is cause for punishment and then spins a 2nd wheel to determine what the punishment will be. In a normal workplace the boundary lines would be clearer, and you would not have survivors guilt. Because in a healthy office you have work (not trauma) and coworkers (not fellow prisoners). Good luck on the interviews / job opportunities!

    5. BadWolf*

      If Freshly is like other meal services — she effectively stole $60-75 from a resident (or more). Not cool, man.

      1. BadWolf*

        ETA: I see it was delivered to residents who moved…but maybe they were planning to swing by and get it? I know I get an email notice every week that I have a box shipped with a tracking number.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I am now having to wonder if the resident didn’t change their address…or maybe it was actually a misdelivery/mistake by the Freshly distribution center.

        If they had a hold on their order and they erroneously delivered it, Freshly eats their loss there, the client can fight the charges. If they simply hadn’t changed their address in time, yes the meal costs come out of the client’s pockets most times. Though it may be written off as a one-time courtesy deal which is how most services work to lean towards good customer service.

        My mind is going down a rabbit hole here, argh.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I mean, whether it was Freshly’s or the client’s loss, whether the former residents could get the meal resent to their new residency or not… it was definitely in no way McGruff’s to take, so that’s where I’m leaving that in my mind.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Oh I agree, she’s terrible and stole no matter how you slice it.

            But there’s always a peculiar difference we place on stealing from “each other” as humans or from “the man”/”big corporate America”

            $65 from Citizen’s pocket hurts more than the already factored in shrink from Mega Corp mentality.

        2. BadWolf*

          I could be that they skipped several meals, forgot to change their address and now a new non-skipped week popped up and delivered to the old address. Blue Apron and Purple Carrot only have so many weeks planned and you have to skip each one.

          But still, I assume you’d get a “your order is shipped” and then they owners would be “Oh shoot, at the old place.” If it was several hours away, you probably wouldn’t run over to get it. But you could call up an old friend and nominate them.

          Anyway, not cool to just take it until you get a yay/nay from the owners, especially when she apparently had their phone number.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            And their email address, which she did not use. And they also have family that still lives here at the property.

              1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

                Did I mention that we have a full sized fridge that we could have put the box in?

      3. Youth*

        Coming from someone who’s tried Freshly (didn’t like it), the price can go up to over $100 depending on the number of meals. It’s several dollars more per serving than your average meal service.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Man…I see where the tyrant boss is coming from though drawing a thick line at stealing like that! Cruddy work aside and questionable everything is sometimes easier to just sigh hard at and look away from. Oh you don’t show up on time, whatever, argh. Oh you are generally just a piss-poor attitude, sigh…how obnoxious but you do /something/ I guess. But you just sticky-pawed someone’s $65 box of meals?! Your’e done, get out, done.

      2. Pilcrow*

        I’m thinking theft is an objective hard line that corp. management can’t ignore. I get the sense that boss blows enough smoke and corporate is indifferent enough that general bad employee behaviors can get glossed over and allows boss to do as she does. Outright theft is something that would make boss look bad to corporate if they found out, so now boss has to act to save face.

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, she DEFINITELY had to be fired for that. I think my feeling weird over it (which I’m only just starting to process and unpack) is probably mostly just the strong feeling that Boss wouldn’t have reported it to corporate if it if McGruff wasn’t on the Hate List (like, the right thing happened, but for the wrong reason?) and also probably because I have to wonder… if Boss had ever addressed the behavioral and performance issues with McGruff, would things have improved and would McGruff have maybe thought twice before taking home someone else’s package/at least asked me or Boss about procedure first so we could have told her no?

        1. pcake*

          I dunno… shouldn’t McGruff have known that taking someone else’s stuff is stealing, regardless of management involvement?

    8. Armchair Analyst*

      Um, I think it’s kind of unusual that the co-worker and Boss drama was the weirdest/most dramatic thing this past week, not the residents, squirrels, police, dogs, vehicles, etc.
      Good luck!!

    9. Anonforthis*

      I don’t wish for anyone to get fired, but if she stole someone else’s mail…that’s no bueno.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Apparently, the maintenance supervisor told her to take the mail. Sooooo… I am left wondering how people don’t know that taking someone else’s mail is bad?

    12. Batgirl*

      Mcgruff was the recommendation of the maintenance supervisor? Well this was all foretold then…

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I took a risk and flat out asked my boss if we could please just never hire someone he recommends again.

    13. A CAD Monkey*

      Theft of mail is a FEDERAL offense, and can have severe penalties. She better hope no one reports her to the Postal Service.

    14. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Well, McGruff got fired. It was FAST. She was in and out of my boss’ office in about 3 minutes, it took less time than it did for her to get her office keys off of her keychain. I don’t think she had even fully processed what had happened when she left. My office is basically the room that my boss’ office opens up to, so I heard Boss setting up HR on speaker phone ahead of time and… yeah, no other outcome was possible.

      After McGruff left, things got weird. Boss ordered all staff to assemble within 5 minutes for a meeting, then took us all outside and stood us in front of her office window, saying it was her new favorite spot for meetings because it is so pretty (real reason: she has discovered that the microphone on the camera in her window will pick up everything that happens right outside of it). Then she started going on and on about a butterfly “Look! Did you see that butterfly?! It was right over there!” “Can anyone see where the butterfly went?” No one saw this reported butterfly, but one maintenance worker DID jump about a foot when he realized that a tiny garter snake had climbed up the trash can right next to him and was close enough to crawl onto his hand. Boss then launched into a long, convoluted, “inspirational” speech about butterflies and the power of their wings and the excitement she hopes we all have excitement in our heart for [The Helllmouth] and, after about fifteen more minutes of rambling she said “And I just want everyone to remember the butterfly. The butterfly flies.” Lengthy pause. “Oh, and that brings me to my second item, McGruff has been terminated. You can talk to me in my office if you have any questions or concerns.” End of meeting.

      After that, she told the whole maintenance crew that they can leave at 5:00 today to go watch basketball. She bought pizza for the property for lunch (including one pie with pineapple and olives, which is how you know this really is a Hellmouth), and then went through McGruff’s desk (uncovering a true hoard of office supplies, including every good pen I ever had). The maintenance supervisor, meanwhile, has been telling anyone who will listen that he feels bad/responsible, because on the day that she brought the package home she apparently asked him what they did with packages like that at some old property previously worked for FIRST.
      Boss has now declared that she is going to hire someone with no experience so they can be trained from the ground up. I think maybe it would be better for her to hire someone with GOOD experience and actually verify her references, but what do I know?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Yeah it was the most likely scenario. I’m not one to celebrate someone getting fired, but what she did really was a fireable offense if there ever is any. McGruff is… not smart. Your boss has had it in for you for a long time but she never could do anything about it because you’ve been smart, and a good worker. Not so McGruff. So… yeah. She kiiiind of had it coming.

      2. BadWolf*

        Hm. Does this mean her Hate List rotates back to you? Or will there be a new target? :(

        Also, did you get your good pens back?

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          At some point, yes, it most likely will. Unless someone else presents themselves as a target… but the Wheel of Hate will always turn back to you at some point (unless you are a dude).

      3. Pebbles*

        Yippee! And now you can wear your awesome jacket to work again!

        (Also, fruit does not belong on pizza. Olives are the only exception.)

      4. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        UPDATE! Maintenance Supervisor confessed to Boss that he specifically told McGruff to take the box home. McGruff is still fired. Maintenance Supervisor is not in trouble.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            My brain. Is BROKEN.

            Additionally, we’ve uncovered a bunch of fun and terrible surprises, including a move in coming in less than an a hour that is so horribly messed up she might have been fired over it if she wasn’t terminated this morning.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            As a response I present you with a real conversation, verbatim, from earlier this week:
            Boss: Hey [Maintenance Supervisor], you’re a man, you might know the answer to this. What do you call what power lifters lift? It’s not a dumbbell…

            Maintenance Supervisor: I’m not sure.

            Me: It’s a barbell.

            Boss: Like, that they lift? Is it a power lifter bar?

            Maintenance Supervisor: I guess I can ask my buddy who lifts weights.

            Me: It’s a barbell.

            Boss: I guess I’ll just put “power lifter bar” in the letter…

            Me: It’s a barbell.

            Maintenance Supervisor: It might be a barbell.

            Boss: Oh, okay, I’ll put down barbell.

      5. ..Kat..*

        Well, if I were you, anytime she started in on me verbally in the future, I would reply, “you know, boss, I was just thinking about your inspirational speech on the butterfly flying. It was so moving.”

      6. Marthooh*

        OK, invisible butterflies and threatening mini-snakes, there they are. It’s not really a Hellmouth post if it doesn’t have aggressively weird wildlife.

    15. I Need Coffee*

      I am so sorry you have to go through this every day and so thankful for the weekly entertainment. It also makes me less shocked every time we have to fight another battle with my mom’s property manager.

  32. Rose Tyler*

    I sit in an office w/a door but no window. I’m the only manager at my level w/o a window. I have a chronic medical condition that the no window situation aggravates so I asked to move to one of the (many) open offices with a window. All the open offices with windows currently have two cubes installed – they’re a big room with a door, with two cubes along one wall. My boss interpreted it as a request for medical accommodation and took it seriously, but told me I have two options: switch offices with one other specific manager at my level who has an office w/a window – so he would lose his window and move into my cave. Or, I can sit in one of the cubes in one of the empty offices. For whatever reason they’re unwilling to take out the cubes and put in an actual desk.

    What would you pick/how would you handle?

    For me it’s not even an option to kick the other guy out of his office and I’m really disheartened that they’d even put that forward as it would inevitably affect our working relationship. My inclination is to take the cube, ask them to promise nobody else will ever move into the other cube, and ask that the next time the furniture people are in the building doing work elsewhere that they tack on converting the cube to a desk (since they’re not willing to do it for me right now as a one-off).

      1. valentine*

        I would switch with the guy. Maybe he’d be happy with a cube and maybe they really wouldn’t make him share, but if you’re a woman, even if they weren’t unreasonable about not simply moving the furniture, you shouldn’t trust them not to make you share a two-person office. If the guy has hard feelings, too bad. He can face the same raw deal you had, but a single-person, windowed office is what you asked for and there’s no good reason you shouldn’t accept it and redirect any complaints to your manager, who is actually responsible for the situation.

        If you’re not willing to possibly inconvenience a colleague (and you don’t know that and it’s not on you) now, there’s no way you’ll refuse a roomie or ask them to step out for private meetings or calls. It’ll snowball. But you can avoid all that. It’s okay to put yourself first, especially when anything you do against your interests will hurt only you and no one will thank you for the sacrifice. This is a “Go get your dog” sitch: Get your solo office and enjoy your privacy and your sunlight.

        1. knork*

          To clarify: you don’t think Rose Tyler can trust her boss–who seems quite dedicated to finding a satisfactory solution for her–to keep a promise not to fill the empty cube? Why?

        2. I Need Coffee*

          What does gender have to do with who should get an office? There is no good reason to displace the other worker if there are other offices available. Taking out unused cubes and replacing it with a desk is not an unreasonable accommodation.

    2. knork*

      I would definitely avoid downgrading someone else’s work space to improve yours. Moving is a PITA, and he would have to be a saint to not resent you at least a little.

      I’m confused about the two-cube situation and why it would be a problem. Is it that both cubes have smaller desks, and you want a big one?

      Is the two-cube office bigger than the single offices? Because I can understand why they wouldn’t want to offer you a bigger office than any of your peers and that’s why they don’t want to remove the cubes.

      I would focus–both internally and externally–on what you really need for your health vs. what you want so that you won’t have less than your peers.

    3. epi*

      Yeah I think you are right about this.

      Asking not to share the office regardless of the furniture is pretty reasonable. Not only do you probably need the privacy, as a manager, but it wouldn’t make sense to give you a worse office setup in response to a request for a medical accommodation.

      Sometimes weird furniture setups can be unexpectedly nice. Use the other space more as storage so you can have a hyper-clean desk you use every day. Or use it as a reading area when you need to get away from screens. If the setup still inconveniences you, document how it’s affecting your workflow for a while.

    4. Chief of Staff*

      I think taking the cube and asking for it to be converted is the best path forward.

  33. Anonny*

    Probably a bit of a ridiculous question, but what the heck am I supposed to do with an hour-long lunch break? This is my first job where my lunch is both that long and actually enforced, and it only takes me maybe 10-15 minutes to eat. I feel weird playing games on my phone for 45 minutes every day, even though I’m not getting paid for that time, and I’m wondering if there’s something better I should be doing with my break? I don’t live close enough to go home and I can’t imagine coming up with 5 hours worth of errands to run every week.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Go for walks, read a book, study some new thing, listen to podcasts, doodle, write, knit… whatever you want.

      During the summer I walk a lot, and when it’s crap weather or if I’m feeling lazy, I have this language learning app on my phone. I also read a lot of books.

      1. Anonny*

        Thanks for all the suggestions!

        There’s nowhere immediately near my office where I can walk (busy roads with no sidewalks), but I’ll look up and see if there are any parks within quick driving distance that I could check out. It would be nice to get out of the office in the middle of the day if I can find somewhere to go!

    2. Way to the Dawn*

      Would exercising be something of interest to you? I like to take a 30 minute walk outside when it is nice out. It helps me clear my head and refocus for the afternoon which is nice too.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I would definitely echo going for a walk. I think for good health you’re supposed to walk at least 30 minutes a day. So you could eat for 15 minutes, and then go for a 45-minute walk, assuming that you live somewhere it’s not colder than Mars in the winter…

    4. KEG*

      Do you have to take a full hour? Can you take half an hour and start later or leave earlier? I would suggest finding internet related things that aren’t games to do, such as reading this site, or other professional related sites. If you have a friend you email with you could craft a longer personal email to them, plan your next vacation, research meals, etc.

      1. valentine*

        Places that enforce this are also likely to enforce it not being a bookend (and maybe there’s law about it because it’s based on hours worked before a break?) to avoid encroachment.

        Paint with Bob Ross. Sit in a park or cemetery. Visit fountains or area features. Read IMDb trivia. Sporcle. Word searches. Nap in your car. Write poetry.

      2. Anonny*

        It’s occasionally possible to shorten my lunch and leave earlier, but not as an everyday thing unfortunately. I wish I could, though!

        Thanks for the suggestions on things to do. Do you have any recommendations for other professional sites to check out? I’ve found a handful of industry-specific ones, but something else along the lines of AAM would be great too.

    7. Aurora Leigh*

      I mostly read, or scroll through pinterest on phone, or research various DIY projects for the weekend.

      Sometimes I use the time to call my mom or grandma.

    8. kittymommy*

      I read old AAM posts! Haha, I also, like others, read or run errands. Sometimes I’ll watch tv on my phone or tablet. My co-workers and I will go out to grab lunch together a couple times a month. At an old job I would nap in my office, but I don’t have that ability now.

    10. Karen from Finance*

      Sometimes I sit at my desk and watch youtube or read AAM. Catch up on social media. Find somewhere private and call my parents to catch up. That kind of thing.

      Also, hang out with my coworkers, but I’m assuming if you’re asking this question that’s not an option.

    11. Not A Manager*

      For some reason “exercise” is unpleasant to me, including walks that don’t have a destination or purpose. But “stretching” is great!! If I had to take a long lunch, and I didn’t want to wander around outside, I’d use at least 30 minutes for a bunch of stretching.

    12. KeepIt*

      man I would KILL for an hour at lunch- a FULL HOUR! Enforced! No need to worry about people interrupting me five minutes through!

      I’m lucky if I get ten minutes to wolf down a sandwich at my desk. Read, learn a new skill, catch up on TV, walk, run errands. And definitely embrace it!

    13. Pam*

      I have a set of online videos for chair yoga. Also, being a book worm, time to read is always appreciated.

  34. Office Mercenary*

    After a long period of un- and underemployment, I’m trying to transition into a new field, and I recently got a very exciting freelance project in this area. I really enjoy the work, the topic is extremely meaningful, I’m learning transferrable skills, and despite some initial imposter syndrome, I think I’ve done good work these past few weeks. I hope this is a sign of good things to come, and I look forward to referencing this experience in future job applications. However, while my team’s contribution to the project ends in a few weeks, the project is still confidential until the other relevant departments are done a few months later, at which point the final product will be published. There will be a period of time when I can’t talk about the work I’ve completed, but I will be back to job hunting. How does one list a job like this on a resume when one can’t give details? I’m not even sure I can say who my client is.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Unless you signed a confidentiality agreement, I would simply ask what details you can reveal.

      If you can’t name the specific project or client, can you name the type of work and industry? “Analyzed production metrics – annual yields and losses – for a client in the llama farming field.”

    2. 867-5309*

      You could list “independent consultant” as the job title/company and then provide general bullets under it,
      – Increased the email CTR by 5% after redesigning the emails for a defense contractor.
      – Led the redevelopment of the website for an aviation client that resulted in a 10% increase in time on site.

    3. Green Thumb*

      I’ve worked for a long time in positions that require confidentiality, and I usually find that being upfront about it is best. A quick line about “details are confidential” is usually sufficient. I agree with the other replies: you could put details about your work, i.e., X outcome, Y value, or what have you, just say nothing that would give away the client or any potentially sensitive information.

      If you contact the client/whoever asked you to maintain confidentiality to ask about it, you can say something like, “This work was really valuable, and I’d like to mention my involvement with this project on my resume. I understand that I’ve got to maintain confidentiality until [date], but until then, would I be able to mention the project in these vague terms?” and then copy/paste whatever you were planning to put on your resume. If you get to interviews where you’d have to be talking about the still-confidential project, follow-up and ask your client (or whoever it is) how much you can say.

      In interviews I usually say, “I’ll tell you as much as I’m able to about my duties in role A working on project B, but due to the nature of the work, there’s some details I’m not at liberty to discuss. If you’d like to ask follow-up questions about specifics, please do, and I’ll answer them as thoroughly as I’m able to. You are welcome to call [reference] as well, who can speak to my work on project B, and can make a judgment call about what else can be said about the nitty-gritty specifics.” People are usually understanding of this and tend see it as a sign of my good judgment.

      Good luck in your search! :)

  35. Dorcas*

    I have been with a small, family-owned company for about 10 years, overseeing financial reporting and the customer database; I have one direct report. A new CEO started a few years ago and wanted us to do more advanced analytics, which I thought was a great idea. To make up for the extra time we now spend on reporting and more advanced data entry to make reporting possible, she said that the sales force would take on more responsibility for running simple lists and documenting contacts with clients, and we invested in an upgraded CRM and training courses so they could do that. Unfortunately it’s been almost impossible to change the culture here; old employees are still asking us to run even the most simple lookups and turnkey reports, and new hires quickly catch on to the culture and follow suit. The other day a person who has taken extensive courses and has been with us for about a year and a half walked in to my direct report’s cube and asked her to generate a basic list of clients in her territory, which she could have done herself in less time than it took to walk over and ask for it. My coworker started to run the report but then came and asked me about it since it didn’t seem like the best use of her time, and I told her to delete the query she had set up and go back to the person and offer to quickly show her (again) how to run the report. I sent a quick email to my supervisor telling her that I had done this and she did not respond. The requester kept putting my coworker off on the quick training and then two days later she demanded the report, saying she needed it immediately. I called my boss who immediately began screaming at me and berating me for having my coworker delete the query and export. I tried to calm her down; then today she called me in to her office and told me that telling someone to delete a query in the database is “destroying work property” and is a fireable offense. I told her I would leave immediately if she wanted to fire me but we could not keep letting people shirk their responsibilities for using the database. She told me she was trying NOT to fire me because I am a good employee but that I could not “destroy work property” in this way again. I am kind of baffled by how a very basic query and export list – the kinds we regularly clean out of the database after they have been used to save server space – are work property. By this definition it seems to me that we could never throw out notebooks with informal meeting notes, shred documents that are no longer needed, etc. Does this sound right to you guys? Could I really be fired for asking someone to delete partially completed work and show someone else how to do it instead?

    1. AliP*

      It sounds like maybe your boss doesn’t understand what it means to delete a query? Seems like a really overblown response, maybe she doesn’t know exactly what you’re deleting and thinks you’re actually removing records from the database. Especially if she’s otherwise a fairly reasonable person- she could say that running these queries is a responsibility of your team, but focusing on the “work property” part seems like a miscommunication.

      The larger issue of the legacy staff not wanting to use the CRM is, unfortunately, really really common. I think it’s almost a sad office trope at this point: get Salesforce, spend the rest of your life trying to convince sales to track their leads and close opportunities.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      You can be fired for any reason or no reason, so yes, she could fire you for this. But is it “destroying work property”? No.

      1. Dorcas*

        I am very sure I don’t want to work here but due to family responsibilities, I am probably stuck for the near future. Thanks to all who responded!!

        1. SOCK ME UP MONKEY*

          Salesforce is HOT. Any experience with it is great. TBH you might want to look around!!

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      Your boss obviously doesn’t understand what data is. You didn’t direct anyone to purge anything from the database, but based on her reaction it sounds like that’s what she thinks happened.

    5. CatCat*

      You could certainly be fired for it, but I doubt you will because it would be a stupid thing to fire someone over. Your boss sounds a bit loony though, so you never know.

      If she were my supervisor, I would give serious consideration about whether I should consider looking for new employment. First, because she is an overreacting screamer. Second, because the threat of being fired would make me feel insecure in my continued position.

      I think you should go back to boss for the immediate time to get some clarification. “Boss, I was really taken aback by your accusation that I had ‘destroyed work property’ by deleting a database query. We routinely delete queries as needed to keep the database cleaned up and save server space. Should we not be doing that?” (Don’t argue about whether this should or shouldn’t be done, let it be her call.)

      “Second, I understood that CEO wanted everyone trained up on using the database and to stop coming to me and Direct Report for simple tasks that they can do on their own. Is that incorrect? Do you want us to do something different going forward?” (Again, don’t argue it. It’s her call even if she make a counterintuitive and stupid call.)

      Then to CYA, email her a recap of the conversation and her decisions. “Just recapping our conversation today to ensure we’re on the same page…”

      Again, I’d be questioning my plans to stay at the organization versus looking elsewhere though.

    6. Amethystmoon*

      This sounds bizarre and more like an excuse than anything else. If your boss is not very computer literate, perhaps she misheard or misunderstood something in some document or verbal training that she received. But it may depend on what your company’s HR & legal depts. have defined as “work property.” I agree, I would also think that it would mean no one can ever destroy outdated notebooks or recycle papers that were printed off and are now no longer needed. Any building with such a definition would be buried in papers and trash as a result.

  36. Mockingjay*

    I am starting FMLA leave next week, to care for an ill family member. I never realized how wonderful this law is until I needed it.

    For the last two months, I have been in a tug-of-war between meeting the demands of my job and organizing care. I am stressed beyond belief, my work is suffering, and I am plain exhausted.

    FMLA can be a win/win for all. It’s a relief to turn over my work to trusted colleagues so projects that I am vested in keep on course, while I get the time I need to devote myself to family care, knowing that my job is waiting for me. I still have years of work left in me and I will be ready to pick up where I left off.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Glad that you’re able to take the time to focus on family care! Hope it goes well, family recovers, and your return to work is smooth.

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Sending you a hug of support. FMLA saved my sanity …. it is a great thing when you need it. And take care of you, too. (I know others have already said that… but put your oxygen mask on before you help others. You have to eat, sleep, and take care of your health!)

  37. FD*

    I’m really frustrated about a work matter and I just want to vent a bit.

    I work for a small (2-person) business. We share office space with another small (>10 person) business, which we’ll call [B]. Because we are too small to afford an admin of our own, we pay a small share of [B]’s admin’s salary. In exchange, that person answers the phones for us, schedules a few appointments, and greets people who come in.

    The other person in the business works outside the office almost all the time. My job means that I’m in the office 100% of the time. However, a lot of my work requires being able to focus. We share in the admin role to reduce the number of calls and interruptions I have to deal with.

    My frustration is that [B]’s admin is absent WAY too often. And it’s always, always on a Monday or a Friday. This person is also often late, probably 2-3 days per week, by a significant margin (10-30 minutes), always with a different elaborate story of why they just couldn’t be on time. This means that whenever this person is out, I have to cover the work they do for our business as well as my own work, and my primary job suffers.

    I know the owner of [B] well enough to know that they won’t discipline this person. I also do our budgeting so I know it’s not practical for us to get someone of our own.

    No advice, I’m just annoyed with the situation, particularly since it’s very hard for me, at this point, to believe that this person is really just being that unlucky in the timing of their absences, and this has all been going on for more than a year now.

    2. HQB*

      This is only a bandaid, but could you talk to B’s owner about reducing the amount you pay for the admin services? If you document how often she is absent or late you can make the case that you are paying for 40 hours of coverage per week and only getting, say, 35 on average. Alternatively could you ask B’s owner if any of their other employees could provide backup admin coverage when the admin is not there? They must have someone who provides backup coverage for their own company, and if you are paying for admin coverage, you should be able to use that as well.

      1. FD*

        On the first, I’ve considered it but at the percentages we’re talking it’s not that much of a financial difference, and I’m disinclined for us to burn political capital on that aspect of it, when there are other more important issues where we need to work together.

        On the second, [B] doesn’t have a backup. They just have their phones set up so that people can dial through an IVR to reach people if the admin is out.

        Actually that’s the other part that annoys me–since I’m the only one in the office full time out of our two offices, if the admin is out, I also have to listen for the door, get up, and go see who’s there every time someone comes in the door.

        1. FD*

          Also, we pay a percentage of the actual wages + taxes, so if the admin has unpaid time (which has happened), we actually DO pay less. That’s why fussing over that part isn’t worth it.

          FWIW, my boss is on the same page as me and is awesome, but we both feel that it’s in the ‘incurable, but endurable’ category. It just happens to be annoying the heck out of me right now because I have to do extra work in general for the end of the month so it’s irritating to have to also cover for someone for what feels like the millionth time.

          1. valentine*

            You’re doing unpaid admin work with no end in sight and your boss is lacking in imagination. If you didn’t pay this person, what could you do with that money? Add that money to the cost of your lost time via interruption, annoyance, and stress. Is it enough for a temp? Why must you endure? Are there really zero alternatives to this nonsense? Are the visitors for you? Can you get an intercom or disallow walk-ins? Do you have to be there all the time? What happens if you ignore the door or let all calls go to voicemail and reply at certain times? B and your boss are crap at managing this person. Your boss is giving this woman PTO for no good reason. He should sit down with B because admin’s not doing the stuff you pay her for. Her options should be to get in gear and take her work for you seriously or for your boss to end the payment scheme.

            People with wild stories are the worst.

            1. FD*

              If you didn’t pay this person, what could you do with that money? Add that money to the cost of your lost time via interruption, annoyance, and stress. Is it enough for a temp?

              It’s not enough for a temp, or even remotely close enough for a temp. Because the interruptions are spread across the work week, it makes more sense to pay a share of someone else’s full-timer vs. trying to hire our own.

              Are there really zero alternatives to this nonsense? Are the visitors for you? Can you get an intercom or disallow walk-ins?

              Some of the visitors are for me, plenty aren’t. And unfortunately, no–the nature of the business we’re in means I’m stuck with that part.

              Do you have to be there all the time?

              Yep. Most of my work relies on regularly accessing large, very not-mobile file cabinets.

        2. Arts Akimbo*

          “Actually that’s the other part that annoys me–since I’m the only one in the office full time out of our two offices, if the admin is out, I also have to listen for the door, get up, and go see who’s there every time someone comes in the door.”

          Honestly, sounds like the other office should be paying a percentage of *your* wage. They use you as much as (more than??) you guys use B.

          1. Batgirl*

            Right? This is also the reason B aren’t disciplining the admin. They have no consequences! Someone else’ll do it!

            FD, in your shoes I’d be considering why a) We’re the only one paying for help that goes both ways and b) why are we the only ones worried about political capital.
            Maybe you genuinely are the poor relation and have to suck it up right now, but I bet if you moved out someday Boss B would say to admin ‘Ok I really need you to be more reliable now. I am now paying you full wage and have no helpful backups. I can’t even dock you because it’s not a time issue. It’s a firing one; while the time lost is small, the inconvenience is high’.

    3. Anono-me*

      Would have phone service be an option? I know it wouldn’t address the physical visitor situation, but the phone service could take all your calls and send you email summaries of people’s concerns

    4. Not A Manager*

      What does the admin actually do when she answers your phone? Obviously she doesn’t interrupt you for everyone; that would be worthless. Does she screen the calls and put some of them through to you?

      Unless people are really calling with fires that need to be put out instantly, couldn’t you let the calls go to voicemail and screen them as soon as you can break your concentration? Could you have a dedicated buzzer so that you only need admit your own customers and not answer for the other company?

      I’d try to see if there’s some way to either minimize the disruptions when the admin is AWOL, or, better, find a way to do without her.

      1. FD*

        I can’t get too much into the details without outing myself but what I can say is that she can answer certain basic questions and make appointments, which is about 50% of the calls we get. Reducing the calls I have to handle by 50% is genuinely valuable to me.

        The problem in general is that the nature of the business that I’m in is that there are a lot of calls that are fires that have to be dispatched out. That’s part of the nature of the beast and I knew that when I signed up. I’ve got to fit in the focus work around a job that’s prone to having loads of fires pop up all the time anyway. That’s why it’s sort of annoying to have to handle extra calls rather than just the ones that have been screened as needing my attention.

    5. ..Kat..*

      In my opinion, company B should have a backup for their admin.

      Have you told your boss what is going on and how it is affecting your work?

      1. FD*

        /shrug/ The business is really too small for it to make sense.

        He’s aware, but there truly isn’t anything he can do about it. Honestly, I’m just grouching at this point. It’s just going to be this way until we can afford an actual admin. I’m mostly grumpy right now because I’m trying to do reports and getting extra interruptions today was NOT helpful.

        It’ll be fine. I just wanted to vent a bit. :)

        1. Lilith*

          This is probably dumb but can a sign or arrow be placed on her desk directing foot traffic to your office for help so that at least you don’t have to get up to greet folks?

  38. Bait and switch!*

    Nightmare scenario! I just started a job two weeks ago and it is not what I interviewed for. Suddenly I’m in charge of llama presentation and teapot management when I interviewed for crock pot communications. My boss has taken two vacations since I started after telling me I’m in charge. No one is being a decision maker and I’ve been piecing together protocol in my boss’s abscence. Normally I’m a very optimistic person and am happy to jump in and help. But not for a job I didn’t interview for! I managed to talk to my boss between vacations and this is the role I’m stuck in. So awkward.

    1. 867-5309*

      Hang in there!

      And FWIW, if you happen to in fact be in communications/PR/marketing, then as long as you have a couple experiences around two years, you’d probably be fine to begin the job hunt.

  39. Lily*

    Do you consider it normal to write on a business card someone’s just given you (e.g. to make a note of when they should give you a call etc.)?

    I’m Asian and business cards are a big deal where I’m from, you absolutely do not write on them (it’s also considered rude if you don’t hand them over / receive them with both hands), but then I’m not in that Asian country anymore so maybe that’s the norm here?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What’s “here”? In the U.S.? In the U.S., assuming someone actually still has a business card, it’s absolutely normal and acceptable to write on a business card to make a note of when they should give you a call.

      1. valentine*

        In the US, they are more convenient than a scrap of paper, but it’s fine to throw them out, write on them, use them as bookmarks, etc.

        Accepting something lightweight with both hands is excessively formal. I would only do that for babies or the Eucharist.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      East Coast USA here: business cards are not at all a Big Deal. It’s normal to write on someone else’s business cards.

    3. FD*

      It’s incredibly normal in the US. At one point, I was reading up on Asian business etiquette to prepare for a meeting with an important potential client, and the site discussed the differences you’re describing, and said that it’s common for American business people to accidentally come off as rude because of the different norms around business cards.

      The best way I can describe it is that in the US, people tend to see business cards as…well, mostly a stopgap until you can enter the relevant information into your phone/contacts management system/etc. rather than being something of value or a symbol of the connection between people. Because they’re mostly seen mostly in a pragmatic way, it makes sense to write on them if you need to note additional information that isn’t on the card.

      Definitely not a ‘it’s better this way than that way’, but FWIW, it definitely isn’t intended to be rude in this context.

    5. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m in the US, Midwestern area, and it’s very common to write on business cards in my experience. I do it all the time to put in little notes of where I met them, what we may have talked about, etc so that when I go back to contact them I remember what we were talking about or what I might have wanted to ask them about etc.

      Otherwise (at least in my job) I’d have 39248 business cards with almost the same company name that all do a variation of the same thing.

      1. epi*

        I’m also in the Midwest.

        Not only is it not a big deal to write on business cards here, in my experience, but usually the person giving me the card writes on it before giving it to me. They might want me to have other contact information in addition to what is on the card, or the name of their supervisor, or anything really. So I usually don’t have to write on the card in front of them, but I wouldn’t hesitate to do so if I wanted to remember something about our conversation.

        1. just a random teacher*

          My business cards have my name, subject area, which school I teach at, and assorted contact information, but I’m often trying to give out my contact information for reasons that aren’t particularly related to that subject area (I advise a club in a different, unrelated subject area and that’s often what I’m networking about since it’s much more likely to need, say, guest speakers than my actual classes are). I’ll usually write something on the card before handing it over in that situation to help cue the person’s memory later. Similarly, if I get a card and don’t think the person’s name, title, and contact info will be enough information for me to remember why I have that card later, I’ll write something on it to help me remember. I’ll particularly do this if I’m supposed to do some specific form of follow-up such as email them a document.

          Until recently, teachers at my school were all given generic business cards with a blank for you to fill in your name on, the pre-printed title of teacher, and the school’s contact info. Those definitely expected you to write in your name, and possibly your email address, before handing them off. (I am so glad to have proper cards now. It made for some awkward networking to have the business card equivalent of the temporary new account checks when I would be asked for my card when trying to make connections out somewhere.)

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      It is totally normal to write on business cards in the US, in fact, seeing someone writing down their follow ups on your card in my mind, shows that they are serious about doing the follow up.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yep. Writing on the business card indicates there’s something important enough to write, and that they intend to keep it.

    7. Disco Mama*

      I thought the ability to write on the back was one of the main reasons people still use business cards!

    8. Observer*

      SOO normal that sometimes that is the main reason people give them – and why many people are careful to design their cards to be blank on one side, or to have a decent amount of blank space on one of the sides.

    9. Amber Rose*

      Yep, it’s the exact opposite. In North America, we treat business cards as space to write info we don’t want to forget. They aren’t taken very seriously, and half the time when I get one it’s like, crumpled and creased from being jammed in a pocket.

      I do know that the disconnect there is why our business folk often come across as rude/insulting when they travel. My Japanese language teacher held a whole class about that, warning us to watch ourselves on a few key points.

      1. Artemesia*

        The first time I met the Big Cheese at an organization I worked at in Singapore, the person working with me took me aside and made sure I knew the business card dance. Big Cheese was visibly disappointed when I took his card with two hands and examined it before putting it in my card holder and then offered my own card in the same way. I gathered he got his jollies chiding rude foreigners about their business card etiquette and I appreciated that my minder clued me in.

    10. hermit crab*

      In my experience (all in the U.S., mostly on the east coast), writing on business cards is totally normal; if anything it’s a benefit, as it indicates that you’re genuinely interested in remembering the person and following up! I hate the current trend of over-designed business cards with colored backgrounds and stuff on the backs. There’s hardly any space to write things anymore.

    11. Moonbeam Malone*

      Normal in the U.S. FWIW, I’m a woman and don’t feel comfortable/safe putting my phone number on my cards, so I actually have had my two-sided cards printed with one side of the card un-coated, specifically so people can write on it if they do request a phone number.

    12. LKW*

      Very normal here. People won’t even hand them to you, they’ll leave them on your laptop or seat at a table. Writing on a business card is also very common.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        I often find business cards lying in weird places as cheap advertising: there were some in the drink holder of my building’s treadmill last week (personal trainer), and I’m always finding them tucked into the structural supports at my local swimming pool or left on the counter by the hairdryers (mostly MLM consultants/odd jobs.)

    13. Zephy*

      US-based here. The last time I even had business cards, they had space on the back specifically for the purpose of writing on them.

    15. Artemesia*

      Business cards are not part of a sacred ritual or a symbol of the actual person in the US. (I have worked in the Middle East and Asia where the elaborate business card ballet is the norm so understand what you refer to). It would simply seem sensible to jot down a note about a future meeting or whatever on the card. A total non-issue in the US. (you wouldn’t of course toss the card into a waste basket in front of the giver, but using it to remind you of a future appointment with the person is just common sense)

  40. ten ton trucks*

    A little curious about this and interested to know other people’s experiences. I had a Skype interview this week and the night before had a sudden worry that it might be with the webcam, so I put on an interview top. It wasn’t webcam, just like I’d initially assumed. I wonder if this is because it’s internal and we’re all used to using Skype for all our meetings? None of the interviews my office does use webcams, although they all use Skype to do them.

    When I interviewed somewhere else 5 years ago that was a webcam interview, it was on some other site, not Skype.

    What’s people’s experiences with this? Is it assumed that “skype interview” = “will use a webcam”? Or is “skype interview” just replacing “phone interview” with the assumption that no one will see each other? Or is this just a norm of my current office that I’ve internalized? Do webcam interviews say it straight out or do they just assume you know because they say it’s on Skype?

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      If it comes up again, I would just clarify when the interview is being set up. I’ve had a few skype interviews with webcam, but the potential employer always asked if I had a webcam/was able to participate in an on-camera interview.

    3. VAP*

      Every time I’ve had a skype interview, it’s been with video, so personally I’d assume that.

    5. hermit crab*

      I would also assume it’s a video call and I think what happened to you was weird! That said, my organization does BlueJeans for all its conference calling, so for us saying “I will send a BlueJeans link” often just means “I will send a conference line.” I call into plenty of meetings – not interviews, but calls with external partners, collaborators, etc. – where the call-in number is a BlueJeans line but nobody ever turns on their cameras.

      1. ten ton trucks*

        Yeah, I think that’s just what happened here, we say “skype” all the time when what we mean is “we’re going to do a call through our computers so we can talk and share screens, but no one is ever on video for this, this is a work conference call” that it’s just seeped through.

        This interview didn’t even have screen sharing, it was just being used as a conference call line.

    6. 867-5309*

      I assume Skype = webcam and since reading this site, now clarify for candidates that when we’re doing their initial Skype interview, it’s voice only.

    7. Parenthetically*

      I would 100% assume that if someone said “Skype interview” they would mean a video call interview, and would be extremely surprised if they just used the voice call option! It wouldn’t even occur to me that someone would use Skype for a voice call only.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I’d assume video unless they say otherwise. I had a phone screen via a web app recently and it was audio-only, but that was indicated beforehand.

  41. Trying to Get Out of the Clown Car Biz*

    This has been gnawing at me a little and I missed yesterday’s “Is this normal?” thread, so apologies if this looks like a question that should have gone there.

    TL/DR Version: How normal is it to be employed by one business but wind up doing a fair amount of work for a different business, owned by the same person, but you are not on the payroll for?

    Context: I work for a teapot distributor as an Administrative Assistant. Overall it’s wound up crossing more into Personal Assistant territory than I was ready for or would have liked, but while that’s never happened to me before I know that’s A Thing, so we’ll call that part normal-ish, I guess? The owner also owns a few clown car rental businesses, completely separate from Teapots, LLC on paper. Pretty early into my tenure at Teapots, LLC I unceremoniously got saddled with running day-to-day operations for Jim’s Clown Cars, one of Owner’s clown car rental businesses. I don’t know anything about clown cars. It was a tiny company so it’s not like it was a huge workload, but it was super far from my area of expertise and a source of stress for me because I had no idea what I was doing. Imagine my relief when it was eventually taken off my plate by someone with a little actual clown car experience! (Who, um, works for Teapots, LLC, again, not for Jim’s Clown Cars.) But since then while I’m not stuck managing a clown car business at least, I still keep finding myself assigned tasks by Owner which turn out to be for his other clown car company.

    There’s an extent to which I think this might just be a personal assisting thing but…it all kinda rubs me the wrong way? It’s like Owner gets to turn a bigger profit from his side businesses by having practically “no overhead,” because Teapots, LLC is covering overhead for him, free of charge. More and more I feel a bit exploited. I dunno – is this normal?

    1. fposte*

      I can’t tell if he owns Teapots, LLC or not. If he does, I’d say this isn’t uncommon, but it’s not best practice. If he doesn’t own Teapots, LLC this is seriously shady.

      1. Trying to Get Out of the Clown Car Biz*

        He does! Sorry that was unclear. Thanks for your reply. I guess this really comes down to a fit issue for me.

    2. CatCat*

      I’ve seen these sort of lines get blurred before, but I don’t know how common it is. But how the money flows, tax implications, or issues that could arise from not keeping the businesses separate, those are going to be the owner’s problems if it blows up. Those could translate to your problems if he ends up having to lay people off, but that’s probably an unlikely scenario.

      1. Trying to Get Out of the Clown Car Biz*

        It does get a little weird sometimes. Like, if I need to buy something for Jim’s Clown Cars there’s no company credit card for that company and I have to use a Teapots, LLC card. I guess that gets reimbursed down the line but it seems like not a good idea? Also I wasn’t really briefed on any procedure for those reimbursements so, hm. That’s fine, I guess.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t know if this is embezzlement or tax fraud and the less you know, the worse it can be for you. Talk to a lawyer or ask the IRS and plan your exit.

    3. LKW*

      Not sure if there are any CPAs or tax attorneys here but I have to imagine that he’s essentially getting free labor from company A to give to company B and that may not be above board.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Yeah, I know some guys who went to prison for tax fraud. They charged costs to one company they owned that should have been charged to another they owned – but that’s your boss’ problem.
        You should consider what this is doing to your resume and job description. Also, if he gets caught, will you be considered complicit through association by potential employers? You might want to start looking for another job. Sorry.

        1. Trying to Get Out of the Clown Car Biz*

          Hm, I don’t think this really moves beyond using the labor force from Company A for some free labor for Company B and I feel like that most likely falls into a legal loophole, but I have pretty limited knowledge of labor and tax law. There’s a possibility that smaller transactions, like stuff I’m handling, aren’t winding up paid by the correct company. On the one hand I think you generally have a lot of opportunity to correct those kinds of issues before they rise to the level of jailable offences, but on the other I do think it’s probably better to avoid that in the first place? Thankfully I don’t think this would wind up reflecting on me if it did turn out that way but I appreciate the warning.

      2. CJM*

        CPA here. One tax isssue would be if both companies are taxed as a corporations. If the car co loses money but he has no basis, he can’t offset his income from the teapot,company with the loss. By expensing all of the payroll and credit card orders (if not reimbursed) he is offsetting the teapot income with car co expenses he couldn’t deduct if car co paid them ( until his basis increases).

    4. Annon for this*

      I have met a couple people who have been in your shoes. Working for company A, but also doing work for companies B, C and sometimes D. All owned by same boss. I have no idea on legality of it, but I have seen it more than once. It generally is come kind of small clown business.
      I would also be resentful of the boss presenting it as AA, but it seems more like PA. I might put up for it for a while as I am looking for new jobs.

      1. Trying to Get Out of the Clown Car Biz*

        Yeah, I don’t think there was an intentional bait-and-switch, so much as it wasn’t a super well-defined role at the outset. (I do feel a liiittle salty because I’ve always avoided PA listings because I didn’t want the stress and sticky boundaries involved but they tend to pay more than what I make now.) At least I’ve been here long enough not to look like a job hopper. I do think I need to actually start applying for roles elsewhere. Thanks!

    5. Anon for this*

      This is potentially dodgy. I recently left a job where we (at Teapots, LLC) did a lot of work for a Clown Car company owned (at least partly) by one of the Teapots board members, and I’m pretty sure Teapots wasn’t paid for it. The relationship between these companies was extremely murky, but I suspect the board member owned a bigger share of Clown Cars than Teapots, LLC.

  42. Mellow cello*

    Is it normal to feel nervous about an early promotion?

    In my field, people usually in my currently level for at least 2-3 years taking on more responsibility before making the jump to the next level. I’m one year in and they’re short-staffed so I’m getting a *lot* of encouragement to apply to be promoted – my boss, grandboss, colleagues at the next level and colleagues on other teams have all spoken personally to the head of department about promoting me.

    It’s incredibly encouraging and flattering! But I’m also nervous – I want to make sure I’m ready and do a good job. I’m I just over-thinking things???

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      I think it’s normal to feel nervous about a promotion at any time! I would encourage you to ask questions about any additional training offered to people in the (new) role and certainly discuss with your boss/grandboss. It may be that there’s no formal training offered but they’d be willing to send you to a relevant conference or something like that!

      1. Mellow cello*

        I’m definitely keen to continue my professional development! My field usually expects us to self-fund our own conferences etc and I’m actively looking to keep doing that.

    2. Middle Manager*

      I think it’s definitely normal to be nervous. But also an honor that they see leadership potential in you!

      I would say:
      -Stay humble about your age and experience level
      -Be committed to developing yourself for the areas where you have less experience
      -Be prepared for at least a little resistance from peers

      1. Mellow cello*

        Thanks, Middle Manager! A lot of people in my field use the next level to leapfrog quickly to the level above that – if the promotion goes ahead, I’m planning to really develop my skills and knowledge where it’s currently lacking and not try to push forward too fast.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I would be a little leery. Are they just trying to conveniently fill an empty position? What are they going to do to train/support you in your move to this higher position? Or are you going to just be dumped in it and then criticized if you do not know what to do?

      Sorry. This sounds like I have no confidence in you (you sound fabulous). Actually, I have no confidence in your management giving you what you need to succeed. And then blaming you if you don’t succeed. This is based on some of my personal experiences.

      1. Mellow cello*

        Don’t worry, I understand because I’m having those doubts too. I’m great at my job (part of it is that some of peers aren’t very good) but am I ‘2 years ahead of everyone else’ great?

        Is there any way to suss out if this is a genuine opportunity or they’re just desperate for warm bodies and setting me up to fail?

  43. Alice*

    My profession’s culture is service-oriented and consultative, which is great; we aspire to center the user, rather than ourselves.
    Last week I was in a three-day training workshop, and almost everyone was performatively diffident about sharing their insights/experiences. I’m not expecting everyone to love speaking extemporaneously, but do we have to do a ten-second dance, you speak, no you speak, no, you speak better than I, with EVERY group, EVERY time the trainer asks groups to report on their small group discussions?

    1. fposte*

      Oh, yeah, it’s the peril of that kind of culture–the worst thing is for you to act like you have more right to speak than anyone else. I bet that these people will take forever to figure out who gets to eat the last piece of cake.

      1. Alice*

        You are not kidding. The last slice of pizza from day two went from 1 to 1/2 to 1/4 to 1/8….

        1. Iris Eyes*

          I have decided that I will be the last piece hero anytime there is a last piece I want. I will take the responsibility of having the last piece and also cleaning up after it. No, no, hold your applause, its the least I can do really.

          1. fposte*

            Ha. I am your partner; I am the person who goes first at the buffet when everybody’s standing around.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Were you the trainer? If so, you can assign roles to the group: you’re the reporter, you’re the note-taker, you’re the person who keeps the group on track w/ time… And then switch up the roles every so often so everyone gets a chance/has to speak.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, I’ve seen this be effective in classrooms. You don’t have to appoint the people as the trainer, but you can include assigning these roles as the first step in the activity or breakout time.

    3. Victoria, Please*

      As the trainer in that situation, I would have noticed this fast and given directions as to Who Speaks First so it didn’t keep wasting time.

  44. Daphne*

    I have about 10 weeks left in my role as a PT management assistant at an arts centre. I’ve posted before about how I didn’t feel it was a great fit for me and don’t feel like I’ve left my mark on any projects like my colleagues have (small team of 6, we’re all essentially our own departments). Somehow, after a year I’m still here but my contract will definitely end in the summer. Is there any point in checking in with my boss how he wants the remaining weeks to play out? He keeps kicking that conversation into the following week, them when that rolls around a hundred other things have come up that are more important than me! I’ve honestly just stuck my head down and done what I can, but feel it would be nice to leave on a positive note!

    1. 867-5309*

      If he won’t meet with you in person, then send an email.

      “Hi Joe, I’m entering the last 10 weeks in my role as PT management assistant and want to make sure my time is used in a way to best help you and the organization. Is there anything specific on which you’d like me to focus or something I can do with these remaining weeks?”

  45. No Tribble At All*

    Inspired by this morning’s question about meal reimbursement, stories about work expense drama! Either from the employee or employer point of view.

    I’ll start. At my first job, I was sent on a two-week long international trip for training. I was just out of undergrad, so I didn’t have a credit card yet, nor a whole lot of cash reserves. I had to get my boss to buy my transatlantic plane tickets, since we didn’t have a company card. He’s super chill, so he did, and the company arranged the rental car and hotel. I got my first credit card, which had no foreign transaction fees and a small credit limit, and I was all set!

    I was assured by the local site manager that the hotel was taken care of, but two weeks later, when I went to check out, they asked me for my credit card to pay. I couldn’t Not Pay, but I was almost at my credit limit after two weeks. I frantically called my credit card company to approve an increase to my limit so I could pay for this hotel (which they did). And that’s why, my first day back when my manager asked how the trip had been, I burst into tears, because I’d gone a thousand dollars over my credit limit and was afraid I’d ruined my credit score forever. My manager gave the local site manager a stern talking-to, and they revamped their travel system after that.

    1. Temperance*

      I worked in a shared office space organization, and I was strongly encouraged not to expense my mileage while running errands for one of those obnoxious BNI groups that used our space. My boss basically said that she would have to start doing that part of the job (in an annoyed, angry voice) if I insisted on it. Our grandboss was a member of the org, so she made a bunch of promises to the woman who ran it. The woman who ran the BNI group was a nitpicky nightmare to deal with, and she apparently was told that I would be her assistant for a bunch of things.

          1. valentine*

            Why couldn’t you not pay, have them call the local guy and your boss, and just insist they would have to take care of it and your (personal?!) card wasn’t an option?

    2. Teapot flowerer*

      My husband is actually on a per diem when he travels. They don’t submit receipts, they just say what days and times they were gone (because if they leave after 8 or get home before 6 fewer meals are covered) and if any meals were covered by the meeting/conference hosts. I don’t know the exact amounts, but it’s something like $70/day broken up as $10 for b’fast, $20 for lunch, $40 for dinner, so if they are gone from 9 am Monday to 8pm Tuesday they get $130 in per diem.

      This is very generous and a lot of people stay in hotels with continental breakfast and eat that rather than paying for a breakfast. For whatever reason, this isn’t included as part of the “meals provided by the host”. So far, the organization has ignored it, but people they don’t like get guff about “were you actually gone past 6pm? did you maybe drive slower than you had to or spend time talking that you didn’t need to?” and lots of grumbling about people making money off their per diem. But only about people they don’t like at the moment.

      I hear my husband talk about the drama and think “this should be the most drama-free way to handle this and still there’s drama.”

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        So far, the organization has ignored it, but people they don’t like get guff about “were you actually gone past 6pm? did you maybe drive slower than you had to or spend time talking that you didn’t need to?”

        I used to have a job where I prepared travel claims under very similar circumstances – you had to be on the road for a certain number of hours to get per diem. And it was pretty obvious who understood those rules and who did not. But as far as I know, no one ever said “Joe, it’s pretty amazing how you always manage to be on the road for EXACTLY 12 hours and 15 minutes.”

    3. Decima Dewey*

      When I worked for the accounting firm, somehow it became my job to check the timesheets for mistakes (wrong client number, faulty arithmetic on hours and expenses). One partner took the Tax Department out drinking on April 15th, and charged three of the department’s most troublesome clients for the bill. One Audit Senior Accountant liked to submit expenses for meals at pricey restaurants. It turned out that the rest of the team didn’t want to eat at Chez Expensive in Jersey Shore, PA, but wanted to order pizza or takeout while continuing to work, so they’d finish the audit faster.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      This didn’t happen to me, but to someone I used to work with. Her first out-of-college job was at an organization where you could either pay your travel expenses upfront and get reimbursed, or you could get a corporate card, which was an American Express She chose to get a corporate Amex. At the time, their big advertising focus was that there was no credit limit. When she tried to check into her hotel, she was surprised to find that for corporate cards, there WAS a limit, and it was based on your credit rating. And as a recent grad with almost no credit history, she had a fairly low rating, and the remaining limit on her card wasn’t enough to check into the hotel. Luckily, she was traveling with a coworker, who covered her room.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I travel a lot for work, but all my expenses have gone smoothly (other than times my crappy former travel policy would leave me with like $12 a day in Philadelphia).

      In my first job I observed a manager needing to rent a car to travel to a conference, but for whatever reason didn’t have a personal credit card and the rental car wouldn’t accept their debit card. No one in the organization had a company card, so they ended up having to express mail a check to the rental car company, or her boss put it on a personal card to be reimbursed – can’t remember the details, but it was kind of a hassle. I just remember the manager who paid talking all kinds of crap about the manager who didn’t have a personal card/the funds to front a multiple hundred dollar rental on short notice, and found it totally demoralizing in a job where I was barely making enough to pay rent.

      Another story about rental cars! This isn’t my story directly, but when I worked at a state university in a small, isolated college town we had a fleet of university-owned cars for business travel. Apparently someone had been checking out cars and pretending to travel for work, completely falsifying their itinerary, meetings, everything. They were only caught when the keys to the fleet car were found on the ground (ironically, at a church) in town when that person was supposed to be traveling out of state.

    6. CatCat*

      I work for state government. The state will pay 100% for rental car and parking costs, but will NOT reimburse customary tips on a taxi/shuttle/ride share.

      So how does this actually play out?

      Need to go to a meeting two miles from the airport? Better take a rental car.

      Need to stay multiple nights in a city with extraordinarily high per night parking costs ($40+/night!) when you really only need vehicle transportation to/from airport and hotel. Better take a rental car and pay to park it every night.

    7. Drax*

      My first business trip was after I was unemployed for 9 months so money was TIGHT. And by tight, I mean I had basically pennies. My credit card was maxed as I was y’know, unemployed for 9 months prior.

      It was training so I spent two days in the office I worked in and then had to go to the next province (I’m in Canada) to their office to train. It was a week long trip, they bought my flight and hotel and told me I’d have a ride and meals would be provided.

      They took me out for dinner one night. There was no lunch provided and minimal office snack. The hotel they put me in had no breakfast, and was in the middle of a small town industrial area with the closest thing being a gas station and the closest restaurant or grocery was a 15 minutes walk in the dark as they didn’t provide a vehicle. I had to call my mom to ask her to lend me money to be fed.

      And then they got mad at me when I told them next time I’d need my own vehicle and why.

      1. Drax*

        Oh they also tried to deny my expense claim when I submitted it for the groceries I purchased. I didn’t buy a lot, some yogurt and some portable snacks about $30 for the week.

    8. Annon for this too*

      I thought about posting under the work reimbursement, but my story doesn’t exactly fit.

      My boss and I were permanent on site contractors at a government installation. For both of us this was our first and only government gig. A new gov’t middle manager started. She kept asking my boss and I to go our for lunch. We generally did not go out for lunch, but relented after a while. Remembering that this person was our client.

      Out to lunch we go. Not at a sandwich shop, like my pay can afford, but a full 4 star restaurant. We all ordered lunch. I order like I am paying, salad and water. GMM orders expensive lunch and drinks. She proceeds to talk mostly about herself, not the contract. I didn’t have a lot of experience with business lunches, so had no way to compare if it was normal or not. The bills comes and GMM lets us know she forgot her wallet. My boss put the whole lunch on her corporate AmEx and filed to expense for the lunch. Her boss called her and had a long stern talk about the impropriety of taking the GMM out for lunch. The end result was that we could not take the manager out for lunch and expense it. My boss explained that it was not her intention to, but GMM purchased expensive food and drinks and left us with the bill. Grandboss reimbursed for the food, but my boss had to pay the tip out of pocket.

      We chalked it up to lesson learned. Until, my boss was out on FMLA and GMM ropes me and other female contractors into dinner. A couple of us try to get out of it, but are essentially told that we must attend. GMM again orders hugely expensive meal, multiple drinks and has no wallet. Also, she had to be driven home due to her indulgence. Thankfully in 3 years working with GMM I had to share only 3 meals with her. She was a piece of work in every other aspect as well. Everyone quickly learned if you saw her in the hall, better get busy fast.

      1. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

        If you were in the US, this is actually illegal. If you had reported it up her chain of command, she would have been fired and she could have been prosecuted for this.

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      This was a LONG time ago, but I worked for a city and for people at my level, we were given the following amounts for meals: breakfast $5, lunch $6, dinner $15. Managers had a higher limit.

      I went to a conference in Banff in Canda, and was in a hotel up and out of the town. So the only option was eating at the hotel, at least for the breakfast and lunch. There was time to go into town for dinner. The conference provided sweet rolls and tea, so I was covered for breakfast. I was on my own for lunch, and for $6, I could buy a cup of soup with water to drink. Nothing else was in the budget. And I already knew that I couldn’t move money around – not spending $5 at breakfast did not mean I had more money for lunch.

      That was when I really understood the term muckety-muck. It comes from Chinook jargon ‘muck-a-muck’ and it means ‘plenty to eat’. I wasn’t a muckety-muck, and thus, I didn’t have plenty to eat.

      1. nj employee*

        I worked for a medium size company that had a reputation for taking 4 – 10 weeks to reimburse, and did not provide a corporate card. For some reason the other employees accepted this. I refused to charge anything at all, unless they could reimburse within 2 weeks.

  46. Curious*

    My current workplace has initated a compensation study over this past fiscal year. Results of this compensation study will be rolled out to management in April and to staff in May/June. I’m curious to know if any of you have been through a compensation study and if so, were there any significant changes that took place due to the compensation study?

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      In my past and current positions, these studies often led to adjustments in base salary for various roles. Sometimes companies do it across the board, others spread the study & related increases out over a few years by limiting it to certain departments.

    2. epi*

      I benefited from one a few years ago. I worked in a role that was present in nearly every department– research coordinating– and turnover was bad throughout the organization. This was in a major US city with lots of opportunities at other hospitals and universities. Supposedly my organization automatically did salary studies every few years, but turnover in my role was bad enough that they did an interim one. They found they were seriously underpaying people at most seniority levels in that role. Most jobs in our ladder were moved up 1-2 salary grades, immediately.

      Honestly, the pay was still not great even after they did that. They did nothing about where people were tending to fall within their range, and whether moving to the top of the range was actually possible for most people. They also had a philosophy of average pay made up for by great benefits, but benefits weren’t actually that outstanding anymore by the time this happened. So it was nice to have but didn’t really change much, long term. I still left a year or two later.

      1. Goose Lavel*

        I participated in such a study after asking for a raise and my employer said they needed to do an evaluation of the whole company, which was probably a total of 10 people. I had been working as a laboratory manager (with lab tech pay) for 3 years.
        Once we got the evaluation results two months later, it showed that my salary needed to double to meet current industry norms.
        I was given a 5% raise. They felt that I was amply compensated prior to my 5% raise and ignored the salary evaluation results. I found a new job within a month.
        Although my salary didn’t double, it was a 30% raise at a better company with vastly improved benefits.

    3. Anonymouse*

      There was one conducted at my former company, but when the results came back they were apparently so bad that upper management decided to disclose it “at manager’s discretion” and nothing changed.

    4. Hoarse with No Name*

      I am a tech writer for a software company in the Midwest. Everyone on my team (according to study results) is topped out for our region. I am the only tech writer, and I’m the senior tech writer, so no more raises for me. It’s pretty disheartening, really.

    5. Happy Lurker*

      I went through one about 20 years ago. The company tried to tell me I was overpaid at 125%. I was an on site worker about 2000 miles from my base office. I asked them what zip code they used… base office. They re-rated to nationwide where I was 95%. I was still annoyed since I lived in both a tourist area and just outside of a top 10 most expensive city. I received a 2% raise even though my work was excellent.

    6. Emily S.*

      Gosh, more than 15 years ago, I was a very low-level customer-service rep at a catalog call center. (Before online shopping was the norm!)
      They did a compensation study, and we all ended up getting small, but not insignificant, raises, and we thought that was fantastic. Much appreciated.

  47. Teapot flowerer*

    Dealing with people professionally in awkward situations. Background, I’m in a small, somewhat niche industry. Everyone knows everyone else, at least by name.

    So last year I applied for a job and interviewed in July/August. It went well, they liked me. But then I got an email within the week saying they’d decided not to fill the position. Okay, that’s fine. I had decided I didn’t want the job anyway, so this was a great way for everyone to save face. THEN they turned around and reposted the job but with fewer requirements (didn’t require an industry specific degree). Come October and I was asked by someone not in the process why I’d turned down the job and I explained to them the weirdness of the situation and that I hadn’t turned it down. Come to find out, the interviewer’s boss had been telling people that they reposted it without the industry specific degree because they couldn’t find anyone qualified. This person knew I’d applied, knew I was qualified and just assumed that I must have turned down the job.

    Now I find myself needing to deal with the interviewer and his boss at professional events and I just … don’t know how. I’ve been just pretending that last year didn’t happen, that they didn’t lie to me and about me and that they didn’t try to torpedo my reputation (because most people who knew anything about it just assumed that I’d decided not to take the job, not that they had decided I wasn’t qualified). But I also find myself avoiding them totally when I can, which isn’t that hard to do, but does somewhat limit my professional networking opportunities. I get so annoyed when I see them and remember what they did that my emotions surge. I feel impotent because I can’t confront them with what I know. And I feel I can’t trust them not to be staging a whisper campaign about me (to be clear – I have no hint that this is happening, I feel like my friends in the industry would tell me, but I just can’t help worrying about it).

    So, I’m looking for a therapist to deal with a lot of this, but how would you guys handle it? Would you just ask them about what happened? Continue to ignore it? Something that I haven’t thought of?

    1. Teapot flowerer*

      Forgot to add – I am low key concerned that they have some reason they think I’m unqualified. I’m self employed and doing just fine, but my last job didn’t end well due to personality conflict and after I left I found out that my previous boss believed I was bigoted and told other people that I was (and apparently that was driving the personality conflict – she was convinced I was bigoted and I didn’t know, so didn’t respond in ways that would assure her that I wasn’t and looking back missed some cues that she thought I was that I just kind of glossed over because they were so weird). The people who reported it to me were shocked that she would think that and came to me to ask me about it and assured me they’d never seen any type of bigotry from me. But I have no idea who else she talked to and who might be thinking it.

      So part of me wants to ask them about it so I can find out if this is having wider implications than my friends think (my friends tell me that everyone knows she’s a loon and knows it’s not true).

    2. Observer*

      Why do you think this would affect your reputation. If they told people that they turned you down because you are unqualified, that would be one thing. But you’re not required to take every job that is offered to you, so why would your reputation take a hit if people thought you refused it?

      1. Teapot flowerer*

        Because I’m not sure what’s being said. I know that they said they didn’t find anyone qualified and that’s why they reposted it without that qualification. My friend came to me rather than asking them, I have no idea what they would have said to him if he’d asked.

        I also feel like they should have given me a head’s up because they knew that people in the room when they made the announcement knew I’d applied and interviewed (at least one was a reference for me). I was so confused when my friend asked me about it that I just blurted out “they told me they decided not to fill the position, so I wasn’t given the chance to turn it down.”

    3. Weegie*

      1. Pretend nothing ever happened.
      2. They’re the problem, not you.
      3. At professional events: ‘Hi, how are you? Isn’t this venue great/wasn’t the lunch amazing?/ Did you have a nightmare time getting here in this weather? Goodness – isn’t that Samantha over there? Must go talk to her. Lovely to see you – catch you later!’

    4. WalkedInYourShoes*

      If they didn’t realize how a great fit you were and didn’t take a moment to ask, you should wonder how it would be like if you took the job and they continue to “assume” everything. It would make it more difficult and challenging to work in an open and transparent environment. I am going through something similar. It appears very passive-aggressive behavior. You want to work with people and managers who can have an open line of communication.

  48. SadMidwesterner*

    Fairly low-stakes question- I interviewed yesterday for a public government (city level) job. They mentioned in the interview that because of the rigidity around government hiring, they wouldn’t even be allowed to reply if I contacted them about anything else. Should I still send a thank-you knowing that?

    Slightly higher stakes- if I am offered the position, can I negotiate for a government job or is that pay very firmly set?

    1. ten ton trucks*

      Send them a thank you note.

      I don’t know city level, but I know at other government entities, people who have been able to negotiate starting at a different step at the level posted in the job. So if the job says it’s level X and everyone normally starts at X-1, they’ve been able to show that they have 10 years of experience and should come in at an X-3 instead. I don’t know how common it is to be successful at this negotiation, though. You absolutely cannot negotiate to come in at level Y instead of level X, though, if the posting was just for level X.

      1. Beth*

        I’ll second this. When I was on panels, a note wasn’t expected, but receiving one was noticed and we thought it was charming. Also, I couldn’t do it sucessfully, but I do know of people who came in at higher steps.

    2. Jimming*

      Yes, always send a thank you email. Even if they can’t respond you should still thank them for their time.

    3. Middle Manager*

      I’ve gotten thank you emails in a government setting. I don’t think it’s as expected as in the private sector, but it’s still appreciated. I just wouldn’t read anything into it if you don’t get a response, because some government positions are really rigid about how they communicate with candidates.

      I’m sure it varies city to city, state to state, but at least in my government context they aren’t going to negotiate a level or salary with you. Political appointees can sometimes do that in my state, but never civil servants.

    4. Auddish*

      You can definitely negotiate salary for a government job. In my experience, they will try to bring you in at the lowest pay step with the job offer, and you need to submit a request for a salary review in writing so it can be forwarded to HR.

    5. BelleMorte*

      Repeating what others have said, you can negotiate the steps, but that`s about it. Most benefits are managed by union agreements and are non-negotiable.

      Most Governments will have a document either on the union webpage or on the actual government website outlining the different steps and pay scales for X classification/band.

      I’d send a thank you note, but don’t expect acknowledgement.

    6. UK Civil Servant*

      Negotiate like crazy at the pint of hiring because once you’re in you’ll be stuck in a rigid gov pay structure with little to no further opportunities to negotiate. (Advice my be different in US but this is my observation from UK gov jobs).

    7. Chaordic One*

      Often times in such interviews the interviewers will not provide you with any contact information and they might not have business cards, or if they do, will be unwilling to provide you with one. If you’re not able to send an email, you might have to go with a conventional thank you note sent by snail mail. And even then you don’t know if the interviewer will actually receive it. But sure, go ahead and send it. You don’t have anything to lose.

  49. Disco Mama*

    I’m 60 and job-hunting for the first time in over 20 years. I’d planned to stay in my current job another 3-5 years, but things aren’t going well for the company. While I would like to start job-hunting, I am not sure how to handle references since my current boss is the only boss I’ve had and she will not handle it well if I start looking. I was a SAHM who returned to the workforce in my late 30s, with an AA in bookeeping. I’m looking to stay in the administrative field and while I have my concerns about my age, there is a labor shortage in my city that I hope will work in my favor. Suggestions?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I think in book keeping you have good options! Even if people unfairly assume you will retire after five years or so, five years of bookkeeping is perfectly respectable and valuable. Good luck!!

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Are there any coworkers or clients that you could reach out to? Have you done any volunteer work you could use (eg, keeping the books for a volunteer org)?

          It’s pretty normal to not use your current employer as a reference.

      1. Disco Mama*

        Probably. A few have offered. And I can probably use someone who is senior to me but not my boss. Would that generally be acceptable? Thank you!

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Yes, anyone with a good knowledge of your skills and abilities is usually acceptable in situations like this. A small number of companies will not accept ‘non-managers’, but most will.

    3. irene adler*

      Can you ask co-workers to be references?

      How about retired co-workers or supervisors?
      Or co-workers/ supervisors no longer working at your company?

      Don’t let your references situation hold you back.
      Do you do any volunteer work? That would be an avenue for references.
      Are you taking any classes now? Can you ask an instructor to provide a reference?

      1. Disco Mama*

        I’m not taking any classes but I like your suggestions for other references. I did the books for my husband’s business for over 30 years and I thought about asking our CPA for a reference since we worked together for so long. Would that be weird?

        Thanks everyone for all of the encouragement. I appreciate it!

    4. 867-5309*

      There are movements across many fields to end ageism – especially for women – in recognition of the breadth of experience someone can bring to a role and organization. It’s a legitimate and frustrating concern, but own what you bring to the table and that will shine through!

      Also, there are some tips for building a resume that looks a bit more modern and can help you get through those initial screens. Examples I’ve seen include getting a gmail.com or outlook.com email address – don’t use hotmail or aol, especially; eliminate the oxford comma; etc.

      Good luck!

      1. Iris Eyes*

        Eliminate the oxford comma??? What does that have to do with looking more “modern.” Oxford comma love is all the rage with the under 40 crowd if dating app protestations of love are anything to go off of.

        1. Moonbeam Malone*

          Yeah, lately there’s been a lot of support for the Oxford comma – it’s still a matter of contention but not a mark of age at this point! I do agree on the e-mail address thing, though. It’s one of those things that shouldn’t matter but it does. (I’d put yahoo on the list to avoid as well, even though it’s probably still common enough.)

    5. 867-5309*

      Something else just came to mind… Depending on the urgency and how quickly you hope to find a new position, could volunteer someplace to help keep the books or do similar administrative work? It will add something fresh to your resume AND give you an additional reference, if things take longer than you hope.

    6. Chaordic One*

      Although not ideal, you can certainly use coworkers, former coworkers, other department heads, former department heads and former supervisors. I once told a bit of a white lie where, with her permission, I listed the “senior department secretary” as my supervisor when I was the “junior department secretary.” She was really more of a coworker than a supervisor. I didn’t feel comfortable letting my actual supervisor know that I was looking and I didn’t want her to know.

  50. pinyata*

    US Fed application question here!

    I’m working on an application where the questions ask about my background in research on a certain topic. I have research methods coursework, tangential research experience in school though not directly on the topic they’re asking, but I have a major personal interest in this topic. Does anyone have any thoughts about whether or not it’s advisable to talk about my personal interest (haven’t done research projects, but read many books about this topic) in answering the question about research and/or in my cover letter? It doesn’t show that you have any skill to say you are personally interested, but it could at least show that the topic is something I know about and will be familiar with.

    Thoughts? Thanks!

    1. Garland not Andrews*

      The general guideline in US Federal applications is The More Information The Better! Include everything you’ve got!

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      I think mentioning that you’ve read on the topics, what interests you about it and referencing the books in your response would strengthen your application. I think the cover letter is probably a more appropriate place to do it since federal resumes are so structured.

      1. pinyata*

        Thank you! I did end up including that info in the cover letter, as well as the answers to the screening questions – they had sections where you needed to explain your choice in the multiple choice questions, which I’ve never seen before, but allowed me to clarify my actual experience.

  51. banana puree*

    I’m one of the youngest people at my office. I’ve been working here for almost a year and I’ve been told by several men that I remind them of their daughters. I’ve talked about this with my friends outside of work and most of them find it to be sweet. Am I being a grump? I don’t find it endearing but I can’t really articulate why I feel this way.

    1. Ann*

      I think it depends how they treat you. I had a coworker call me by his daughter’s name once, because our voices apparently sound very similar, but it doesn’t bother me because he always treats me like a peer, values my opinion, etc. If he did something like that, but treated me like a kid – or like his daughter – then it would bother me a lot more.

      1. valentine*

        It’s infantilizing. Even “You remind me of my Aunt Tiffany, a consummate professional” is worrisome until the end and wholly unnecessary. Why not a well-known, unrelated person, especially someone in the industry? Also, it’s unlikely to be said across racial lines, so they’ve got the trifecta of pointing out nonwork things about you, at least two of which are assumed.

    2. Amber Rose*

      It’s sort of patronizing, but as long as it doesn’t affect their work with you it might be worth letting it go.

    3. knork*

      I would feel either indifferent or a little irritated, but not really find it a big deal unless it got weird. But I would never find this sweet.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      I’d hate it – it emphasizes your age and gender in a way that’s not appropriate for the workplace. It becomes much easier for these men to ignore your ideas, talk over you, etc.

      I would be cautious about addressing the ‘like a daughter’ with them directly, though, too easy to get labeled ‘mean’ or ‘abrasive.’ I would watch carefully for dismissive behaviors and practice addressing those in the moment. If there’s one man who seems open to it, you might take him to one side and mention that you’d like to be known for your professional skills, not your age and gender, and that the ‘like a daughter’ references keep age / gender at the front of peoples’ attention.

    5. Gwen*

      I would be okay with it if it was something specific (like “Oh, you love Agatha Christie? My daughter Jane is a huge mystery novel fan!”), but just a generic “you remind me of my daughter” would feel just…kind of paternalistic to me? Like, you’re here to see me as a professional adult and not compare me to someone in your life that you have some level of power over.

    6. 867-5309*

      I took over the communications department within a manufacturing plant for a global automaker when I was 24. People frequently told me I remember them of their children and so forth. It’s obnoxious. Because, in fact, you are NOT their child. You are their work colleague and should be treated as such.

      Would they think differently about telling a colleague in their late-60s or 70s that that person reminds them of their grandma? Of course you wouldn’t say that!

      1. pcake*

        I’ve absolutely heard a couple colleagues over the years tell over-60 coworkers they reminded them of their grandmothers. The “grandmothers” in question didn’t worry about it, but I could easily see where that one could go wrong.

    7. Someone Else*

      In a vacuum, you’re totally right. This is not a good thing. I can come up with scenarios in which what they did is reasonable and not patronizing…but from what you described, I doubt that’s what happened here.
      (Those scenarios are in which you mention a particular interest or skill and the dude’s daughter actually shares it. In that case…it’s a literal observation like “Oh you play the tuba, so does my daughter!” or you comment on, I donno, a movie or something and he responds “my daughter just said the same thing to me yesterday!” not a generic “gee you remind me of my daughter”)

    8. lmj*

      I had a mentor (not a manager, and it was a temporary assigned mentor as I completed the onboarding process) once pull out his phone to show me that I was exactly the spitting image of his daughter… If by spitting image you mean we’re both pale white women with the same glasses and same hair style/color.

      If it had been a manager or someone I was going to continue to work with for more than a month, I would not have been comfortable with it at all. As it was, it didn’t bother me too badly in the context of everything. I will say that he didn’t? Go on about that much. He continued to bring up his daughter and talk about her but he just did that all the time because he was proud of her, and he did it to all the mentees, whether I was present or not. If it had continued to come up, even in just the month I worked with him, I would have Also been very uncomfortable with it.

    9. only acting normal*

      It’s super annoying.
      Telling them they remind you of your grandfather usually shuts them up though. (No really, I have done this to the super patronising ones. Said with the proper degree of innocence it works a treat.)

    10. Batgirl*

      I still look pretty young at 40, so I feel you on this one and have all kinds of experience with it.
      Each workplace is different in how you handle it; in super formal workplaces you can look over your glasses (even if you don’t need/have them) in a ‘Relatives? At work? At work we have no daughters!’ Do it in a kind of ‘The queen of Spain has no legs’ way).
      In informal workplaces you can push back with mild jokes ‘Why, is your daughter an awesome llama wrangler too?’ Or ‘Oh does she have coworkers who (insert inside joke here: such as ‘who eat all the donuts and don’t leave her any’) too? Anything to avoid the Kodak moment response.
      If they persist with ‘no really’ just say “I don’t know what you’re looking for. “You’re not my dad and I assumed you were joking even though it wasnt funny.”
      It can be fun to just say “Why?” turn the spotlight on them and sit back to listen. Usually the answer is something lame like young + female (although it can sometimes be something credible) and you can just say “Is that all? Welp, I have somewhere else to be”.

  52. Fortitude Jones*

    So I had an in-person interview this week with a company I was initially very excited about. They’re a name in the manufacturing/technology sector, and the salary range for the role was almost 43% more a year than what I currently make. I was so stunned I was brought in in the first place since I only have 16 months of proposal management experience and no prior proposal or traditional project management to speak of (the role is a hybrid of the two). I was very impressed with the job site, and everyone was really nice, but man – this job did not sound like how I thought it sounded in the ad.

    The HR person who wrote the ad had very little understanding of what it is they’re actually looking for, and the role is a hybrid proposal manager/project manager position; however, it leans more towards the latter. I’m interested in doing PM work sometime in the future, but not now, and had I known it was more of that than the proposal management piece, I probably wouldn’t have applied. The hiring manager loved my previous experience in law and claims, and he thought those skills would transfer nicely over to his team, but I’m not quite convinced. And I’m also probably less than thrilled seeing as though I’m actively interviewing with a software company who needs someone to manage all of their proposal content, write their boiler language, and QA their PM’s drafts – this job just doesn’t seem as cool in comparison, even though the other job pays considerably less.

    How do people deal with this kind of thing? I wouldn’t say this was my dream job or anything, but I really thought they were going to be my number 1 choice and the software company 2nd – now, I wouldn’t even be bummed to not get an offer. I feel like the wind has been let out of my sails a bit.

    1. 867-5309*

      This happens more than you think. You have to shake it off and decide to which role you’re more drawn. Money doesn’t matter if you’re miserable everyday, unless money is a primary motivator for you. I’ve taken lower salaries for work about which I’m passionate, a manager who gives verbal praise and flexibility, because the latter two are my drivers.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This is so hard. I always thought money WAS my primary motivator (these student loans are killing me), but I was just “meh” about the whole experience. The ad and the conversation I had with the HR rep made it seem like it was going to be this super exciting thing, and like it was going to be a writing-intensive role, but they seem to want a real PM who can also write, and project management just doesn’t appeal to me that much right now. Then again, neither does my current writing-intensive job. So here we are. *sigh*

        I think I’m just one of those people who doesn’t like work period. Maybe that’s my problem.

        1. 867-5309*

          HAHA I saw that all the time. I joke that I’m unemployable because the reality is that nothing ever feels like a total fit.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I think I’m right there with you. Things will feel right at the beginning, and then six to eight months in, I’m like, “…Nah.”

  53. Brady B*

    One of my direct reports is accusing me of being adversarial and not trusting them. What I’m doing is laying out clear expectations and explaining to her when she raises her voice and is highly emotional that we cannot talk about work and that I will be happy to hear any feedback delivered in a professional manner. It appears with their previous supervisor they often got emotional, and then got whatever they wanted because the supervisor didn’t want to deal with them. My view is I don’t want to deal with emotional outbursts. I am working with HR to help this person learn about appropriate behavior at work. This person is highly competent at teapot design but struggles with interpersonal skills at times, especially when stressed. Peers have said this employee has yelled at them (I suspect the yelling was actually an elevated voice and presenting a highly emotional demeanor) and executives do not enjoy working with this person. My question is has anyone dealt with a person who uses emotions to manipulate people (knowingly or unknowingly, and the EAP has been recommended to them) and how do you let them know the behavior needs to change? I am saying “I want you to know you are coming off very emotional and your voice is elevated, and you are rambling as you accuse me a variety of things. I am always open to feedback and willing to talk about any work problem or concern, but when you are this emotional we cannot have this conversation.” Last time I said this, the person said they would always be distressed when talking about things. The person also gets upset at minor conversations I have with my indirect reports (some of whom report to them). I try to keep them in the loop–but sometimes things are faced paced and I don’t have time to loop the direct report in as fast as wants. So another question–in a small organization, am I wrong to discuss work with my indirect reports? I need to be able to know how projects are going, and I need to hear it from the indirect reports sometimes to get the full report. And, frankly, everyone else is the organization is a joy to work with.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      You buried your lede: Talking to your indirect reports without including your direct report undermines your direct report. Of course she’s emotional about that – you are demonstrating that you don’t trust her to all the people she is supposed to manage. In a small org, that means you’re demonstrating it to everyone.

      You not having time to loop her in is your error, not hers, and you need to fix that. What you’re actually doing is undermining her ability to do her job. You need to decide whether or not you’re willing to do the work to develop trust and a good relationship with her. If not, she needs to find a different job.

      The phrase itself is a minefield, because ‘so emotional!’ is also a weapon used by misogynists. Women get this thrown at us all the time, and it just escalates the situation. It’s very dismissive, and reinforces your lack of respect for her.

      Do you have any room to coach this person on how to de-escalate conversations? To say in the moment, ‘Can we stop and each take 3 deep breaths before we move on?’ instead of just cutting her off?

      Can you ask this person to write things down for you before a talk, or instead of it?

      On supporting her instead of undermining her:
      Do you have regular check-ins with her *and* the indirects on project status?
      Have you really *thought* about why you want the ‘full report’ on projects so much? Is that the right use of your time?
      How is the work itself going? If it’s all moving along on time or with her solving problems before they get to you, you’ve got a good manager there, it would be a shame to lose her because your communication / mgmt styles are different. (I’m in the ‘managers should adapt to their employees’ camp because I think it’s a skill that managers can / should learn, though many here believe ’employees should adapt to their manager’s style’ because they only have to adapt to one person.)

      On the details: I knew a guy who got promoted to a level where he needed to be looking at strategy, but he spent all his time hunting the details. He couldn’t make the switch in his head to letting go and trusting his subordinates, and got increasingly behind and frustrated. He’s been moved to a position where he can focus on details again – sideways, not demotion, but he’s not going to move up again either, all the positions above him require the ability to let go of details and trust your team.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        I disagree that talking to your indirect reports is necessarily undermining – it may be in some environments but not my office. In my job, my grandboss asks for updates/info, etc. from me and my peers because we are the topic experts while our immediate supervisors have way more cases and don’t often know the nitty gritty of a particular case. This is everyday normal, and if the intermediate supervisors have an issue with it they’ve never admitted as much. Presumably they appreciate not being a go between to answer a question they don’t know the answer to.

        1. Brady B*

          Yes, there are definitely times in this work when talking to indirect reports is going to happen. My boss will sometimes check in with certain projects with the staff focused on them, and that is fine with me.

      2. Brady B*

        Thanks for you comments! Believe me, I have thought about the undermining that can happen when talking to indirect reports you mention. I ran out of time earlier and was not able to explain the full story, which is the indirect reports have reported bullying and control issues with this person, so part of me checking in with them is to try find out what is really going on. There have also been issues with executives and peers reporting similar problems. My goal is help this person improve their interpersonal skills which are holding them back significantly. I found some great posts on ask a manager about working with brilliant jerks and people who do have inappropriate emotional reactions at work.
        There have been numerous times when the staff comes to me and I say “check with your boss” because the details of that particular question I definitely do not need to know about.
        I do think a good idea is to use the word “professional” instead of “emotional.” So is the idea of taking deep breaths/a break.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          Bullying and control issues? Yikes! Interesting that she’s accusing you of not trusting her, when it sounds like there may well be reasons not to trust her.

    2. 867-5309*

      I just dealt with this and it.is.brutal. I think you have to remove the language about being “too emotional” and focus on what you need from him – “Your tone right now is unprofessional. I an open to feedback and willing to discuss your concerns, but they must be presented calmly and constructively. Can you do that?”

      Then, document.

      1. Brady B*

        That is very helpful, thank you! Next time this happens, I will say “unprofessional” and not mention emotions or emotional. Thanks!

        1. valentine*

          Why don’t you just fire her? She’s a complete nightmare who does, what, 25% of the job well? An elevated voice is yelling. Get someone who can do the entire job well and won’t turn feedback around on you.

        2. Batgirl*

          People who think anger is ok and ‘this is how I am’ need to hear the words ‘close to being fired’ and also need to hear a lack of engagement with their argument (because they think it’s the start of a successful negotiation strategy).

          “I’m always going to be like this”
          “Well it would be a shame to lose your talent but it’s your choice”

          “I can’t behave like a robot”
          “Well, I can’t ask people to ignore unprofessional behaviour; so I hope you can figure it out before we find someone who can.”

          1. Cats and dogs*

            I’m surprised this person isn’t close to being fired as well. I disagree with the first comment assuming you have bad intentions because the yeller is a woman. I have witnessed bad behavior from both men and women and it is doing a disservice to this person to not address or let go because of sex. Unprofessional behavior- yelling at others- is unacceptable and should not be excused because a person is of a specific sex, gender etc.

  54. Human Sloth*

    Happy Friday, All. I have been involved in a back and forth with a server admin at my job. I am a systems analyst and sometimes server reboots fall to us because of “special handling”. The first week of every month, I plan my reboot schedule. At the beginning of every week, I send a list of the server reboots planned for that week with the time/date. He is badgering me to send the requests 24 hours in advance each time.

    I feel since that I have already sent my weekly email, it’s in his court to set his reminders. I am busy in my own role and time does not always allow me to send him these reminders. Am I out of touch? I am thinking I will send him a very neutral toned email stating my own time issues, but also offering tutorials on how to set reminders/appointment in our calendar system, to help him out. Thoughts??

    1. Rey*

      I assume his badgering happens via email? In my specific work culture, it would be acceptable to reply once to his first badgering email to say that you can only send the weekly list, and that he’ll need to take it from there for his area. After that, I would ignore future badgering emails and would not worry about sending a tutorial on how to set reminders. And if I was concerned, I would probably loop in my manager, who would agree with me that I was already doing more than enough.

      1. Human Sloth*

        Yep. That seems in line with my thoughts, too. I mean, I’m already sharing his job load, he should be happy for my help, instead of put out…

        Thanks for the response.

        1. valentine*

          If you are a woman, say no concisely and no tutorials or suggestions. Really leave him to it.

    2. pcake*

      He could set alarm reminders on his phone or Google calendar. There’s no reason for you to be his reminder.

    3. Chaordic One*

      You should have the tutorial in the “sent” folder of your email. Resend it as often as necessary.

  55. Audrey*

    Shoot, that was not work related, that’s on weekends. I apologize! Feel free to delete Alison.

  56. Ann*

    What essentials do you keep in your desk?

    I ate something that disagreed with me yesterday for lunch – not bad enough to warrant going home, but the afternoon was definitely uncomfortable. I kept thinking that it would be really nice to have ginger lemon tea, for that sort of situation. Another friend of mine suggested keeping Tums on hand for similar situations and I was wondering what else people keep in their desks? The only other things I have are feminine hygiene products and shout stain remover wipes. I was thinking those bandaids for blisters might be nice, too…

    —

    Unrelated question – I’m about to start job searching and one of the things I wanted to do was create a LinkedIn. However, I’m a little worried if I make one, it’ll make it obvious I’m searching for a job. Does anybody have suggestions of how to address this if it comes up?

    1. Rebecca*

      I’m lucky to have a big desk, and a closet in my office, so I keep a clean shirt, extra shoes, big umbrella, ice cleats, a fleece pullover, and in the summer, an entire extra outfit and a towel in case I’m walking outside and get caught by a pop up thunderstorm (this has happened). I also keep snacks, extra meds, toothpaste, toothbrush, sewing kit, and other various feminine hygiene products (along with clean underwear) in an emergency zipper bag hidden away in my purse. I live 17 miles away, so it’s not convenient to run home in case of emergency!

    2. KEG*

      My office has a lot of those toiletries things available so I don’t need my own (Tylenol, tums, tide pens, bandaids/first aid kit, etc.). I personally keep a deodorant, mini toothbrush and toothpaste, floss and a set of nail clippers in my desk. No I don’t clip my nails at my desk, but I have on several occasions banged a nail filing and going the rest of the day with a hang nail is very irritating.

    3. CTT*

      I have a hairbrush, the headache medication I like (although we’re lucky to have one of those big third-party-supplied medicine cabinets for everything else, including bandaids), lotion, and oatmeal packets for the mornings I go to the gym before work.

      I also have 4 vintage cocktail glasses because they came as a set of 8 and that seemed like an excessive amount to have at home, so I keep those in a drawer and pull them out for the occasional “it’s someone’s birthday/we closed a big deal/it’s fiscal year end” wine celebration the people on my floor throw.

    4. starsaphire*

      I have a little mini toiletries kit (travel toothbrush, sample toothpaste, small hairbrush and emergency hair ties, wet wipes, travel deodorant, that sort of thing). I also keep lady supplies, an extra dose of meds, some pain relievers, hand sanitizer and lotion, Tums, and ginger chews. And an emergency granola bar and some emergency chocolate. And a cardigan.

      And that’s me being restrained. ;)

    5. Bubarina*

      I have a giant office, so I have way too much stuff. A mini refrigerator, tea kettle, french press, coffee grinder, a wide array of snack food, a selection of mugs and water bottles, a coat rack, a space heater, etc. I also keep extra tote bags and a backpack in case I need to carry a bunch of stuff home unexpectedly. And I have a cozy blanket folded over the back of my chair.

      Let’s see, what else…an umbrella, a phone charger, an extra pair of shoes, a few framed photographs, a lamp, contact solution, ibuprofen, deodorant, hand sanitizer, tissues, floss, a lint roller, a toothbrush, toothpaste, feminine hygiene products, hair ties/bobby pins, a comb, a brush, safety pins, hand lotion.. The list goes on and on. People always comment on how comfortable and homey it is and want to work at one of the spare tables or desks I have in there as well.

    6. knork*

      Snacks, tea, tylenol. And my stomach is a bit delicate, so I have Pepto (the caplets, the liquid stuff is horrible) and rice cakes.

      They make tiny little “emergency” kits for women–a couple bandaids, a tampon, bobby pins, a nail file, a tiny bottle of clear nail polish, a few threaded needles, etc. I got one as a gift–they’re sort of overpriced, but nice to have around.

      And I’m going to buy some stain remover wipes, because that is such a good idea!

    8. Middle Manager*

      I have one drawer in my cubicle built in desk dedicated to personal items. Easy microwave lunches, a small toiletry kit, bandaids, basic meds, tea/teacup, feminine hygiene products, stain remover, lint roller. All those things to address emergencies that might come up. We used to be at a fairly remote location so it was important. In our new building there is a CVS downstairs, so it’s less critical, but still convenient.

    9. Moonbeam Malone*

      Very normal to have a LinkedIn even if you’re not job-searching, at least generally, but if you’re worried about optics and want an out, search the “Groups” for a professional development group that’s relevant to your current job and join it. That way if a boss or coworker asks, you can say you’re using the professional development resources on the website to be more effective at your job!

      1. Iris Eyes*

        Yes to this. It is a job hunting networking site but it is also professional social media site (don’t EVER make a comment or post that you wouldn’t want all past, present, and future employers to see.) Its a great way to stay connected to work people without putting them on your Facebook/Twitter/Insta/Snap. Its generally a good way to stay abreast of industry news and things like that.

        Also the more you have in your desk/office the more you should consider keeping a shopping tote or two, just in case you need to carry a lot of it out all at once.

    10. Annie Moose*

      Ooh, let’s see…

      Midol, cough drops, a Tide pen, a pair of spare contacts, hand sanitizer, hand lotion, tampons, ThermaCare heat wraps (they are MAGICAL for days when I’m really crampy), some hair ties, emergency food (I keep soup and bags of chips on hand for emergency lunches, plus often some other snacks), napkins, and plastic utensils.

      In my car I keep a backup work-appropriate outfit (I hate each individual piece of it so hopefully I never have to wear it haha), and in my purse I always have Bandaids and Tylenol.

    11. Overeducated*

      Teabags, chocolate, a woolen shawl, a spare blazer, sometimes dried fruit and extra shoes.

    12. Jaid*

      Mmmm. Bandaids, Aleeve, ibuprofen, asprin, tums, Zantac, Benadryl, Vicks Vapo-Rub, Q-tips, those dental picks/brushes, nail file/buffer, lint roller, paper surgical masks (for dusty days).
      Herbal and caffeinated teas, instant and pod coffee, non-dairy creamer and coffee booster (um, ghee and coconut oil-shelf stable). Plate, bowl, dining utensils.
      Oh, and my building has a gym and shower, so flip flops and shower stuff.
      Umbrella. Tote bags so I can go to Reading Terminal after work and not worry about carrying stuff.
      I do not have a sink in my desk.

      1. Jaid*

        I also do not work out. But I was having hot flashes at one point and seriously considering taking a cold shower during my lunch break to cool down.

    13. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

      Ibuprofen, listerine strips, cough drops, tea and tea mug, a glass from a local bar who did a drink special, Clorox wipes, a lint roller, an extra company shirt, safety shoes and lots (LOTS) of extra safety glasses, extra cutlery, hand cream, lip balm, and an umbrella.

      As for creating a LinkedIn, you could say you’re using it to keep in touch with old colleagues without muddying up your personal social media.

    14. CastIrony*

      Job 1 (cafeteria):
      I have a purse (when I remember it; which is most of the time) that has: a couple of sanitary napkins, gum, a lip balm, and a hand sanitizer bottle clipped on there (It’s like a rubber keychain).

      Job 2 (retail):
      Purse from Job 1 and/or a larger purse, which has: a few dollars, underwear and a shirt, ibuprofen, Rolaids, anti-diarrhea medication from my first day (I went in on a bad migraine and nerves), a couple packets of fruit snacks, and a couple of band-aids. Sometimes, I bring in a drink from Job 1, because it’s free.

      I plan on expanding this purse, but I haven’t gotten around to buying some stuff to essentially make it a large first-aid kit.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      I’m one of those people who has a big purse or tote because she has to have the entire house with her at all times. While my cube decor tends to be sparse, I like to have things handy.

      Desk/cabinets (if I have them):
      •tea
      •my mug. I usually buy a warmer too; that sits on the desk.
      •non-perishable foods in case I can’t make it to lunch or I forget mine (I don’t like to go out) like nuts, soup, etc.
      •cutlery so I don’t have to use the plastic stuff
      •period supplies
      •a sweater
      •a little blanket (I get cold)
      •definitely Tums
      •generic baby wipes (for freshening up–cheaper than Wet Ones)

      Purse/tote:
      •what I call my “trap kit”– a little bag that contains contact lens supplies, some period supplies, a toothbrush/toothpaste, a tiny bottle of mouthwash, and a few other things. This is in my purse all the time, no matter where I am, just in case I get trapped somewhere overnight.
      •first aid stuff: bandages, a thing of antibiotic ointment, ibuprofen.
      •chargers!
      •normal purse items like cosmetics, hand sanitizer, lotion, wallet, pens, a tiny manicure kit, foldable shopping bag, etc.
      •tablet or a paperback book
      •a small umbrella (there’s one in my car too)
      •if I have to haul a computer back and forth, I include a mouse and small mousepad, screen cleaner wipes, and the power brick with cord.

      I don’t keep clothing/shoes in my cube, but I would if I had a long commute. I’m exploring the idea of keeping a bug-out bag in my car as well. Seems paranoid? Maybe, but hey. These are not normal times.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I have a kit in my car, but it is in case I get stranded somewhere. Not paranoid, PREPARED.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I do, but I’m considering upgrading it to full-on prepper style, LOL. Most of this is because of climate change, but some of it is because you-know-what. I think I would feel better if I had something handy.

    16. Amethystmoon*

      Well, I had cleaned out my desk a couple of weeks ago when we were notified that our jobs were physically relocating to a different division (one suburb over), but I still have a hairbrush, basic makeup, a chap stick, and feminine products. Oh — I also always keep hand sanitizer at my desk because not only is it great for hands, it can be the one thing you have to remove stains.

    17. just a random teacher*

      In my desk, I have:

      + My own box of tissues, hidden in a drawer because I do not want to share them with every student who has a cold or encourage sick kids to hang out at my desk unless they need my help with something (there are general-use tissue boxes available for students, just not on or in my own desk)

      + A complete backup outfit (rolled up as small as possible and kept in a plastic bag because at least half of the reasons I might need to change clothes at work would involve me wanting to put the previously work outfit into a plastic bag as soon as I had it off)

      + Chocolate

      + I used to have cashews, but now we have to be nut-free and I still haven’t figured out a good replacement shelf-stable protein that’s nut free and peanut free (due to student needs), and also fits my own needs of being vegetarian, soy-free, and not containing certain spices

      + Flashlight

      + Advil (in a locked drawer)

      + About $10-$20 in $5’s and $1’s (also in the locked drawer)

      In my backpack, which I take to work and also to most other places I go:

      + Ace bandage

      + Advil

      + Portable tape dispenser (this was a Japanese trade show promo passed onto me by a relative – I find it ridiculously useful but have never seen one for sale in the USA)

      + Ponytail holders

      + Assorted charging cables and computer miscellany

      + Cheap backup earbuds

      + Tape measure

      + Flashlight

      + Ribbon

      + Bobby pins

      + Scissors

      + Assorted office supplies (pens, index cards, white-out tape, permanent markers, highlighters)

      When I lived further away from work and commuted on the bus, I kept more stuff at work. I now have a short walking commute, so I’ve pared down the contingency stuff since it’s extremely unlikely that I’d, say, get stranded at work overnight. I also don’t need anything I could live without for half a day since it’s reasonable for me to run home at lunch to grab whatever-it-is. (I used to keep things like a sewing kit for small clothing repairs but now, realistically, if I have time to repair it I also have time to run home and change into something that doesn’t need repairing, so I no longer bother to keep that kind of thing at work.)

    18. Arts Akimbo*

      Because I didn’t see it on anyone else’s list, I have to add my must-have– Immodium. Don’t need it a lot, but when one does… one reeeeally needs it!

    19. Bluebell*

      When I left my most recent job I bequeathed some of these things. I had:
      – tea
      – a few snacks
      – umbrella
      – lint brush
      – stain stick
      – extra lipstick and mascara
      – extra socks and knee highs
      – hand lotion
      – silverware
      – extra charger
      – extra shoes
      – pantyhose
      – eye drops in individual vials
      – bandaids.
      And I wasn’t even the best supplier in the office!

  57. ArtK*

    Brief update on my job search. I had a phone interview with the hiring manager a week ago Monday. It seemed to go very well: Almost as if the job were designed for me! Nothing since then but the recruiter told me that the HM was going to be out this week, so not to expect anything. As they say, the waiting is the hardest part. I’ve been doing as much interview prep as I can, based on what I learned from the HM.

    In other news, my current employer pulled my one-and-only tester away from my project for the next 3 months. I’ve got > 300 untested bug fixes as well as a huge backlog of regression testing. Somehow, I don’t think the company is terribly invested in the project, despite having some big $$ customers for it.

  58. The Curator*

    Sharing a win. Big Project finished and published. It is book from our University Press as well as an open access academic download. If you have a chance, take a look and let me know what you think. First time ever this kind of collaboration. Had the book party last night. Sold 30 copies. Woot!
    https://www.lib.umn.edu/publishing/monographs/abcofit
    Hoping for an “exceeds expectations” on upcoming performance eval.
    Yes, mostly done on non-work hours but a labor of love.

      1. The curator*

        Thank you. It’s been an overwhelming project for over a year. We are still working on the digital curriculum for teachers that will launch in Sept.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      Ooh how exciting! Congrats! Looks very interesting- will bookmark to look at more after work!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      That looks great! I love the cover!!!
      On the website, should that be “foreword?”

  59. Taylor Swift*

    I have a coworker who is on maternity leave, but we all don’t think she’s coming back after. She took home all of her personal things before going on leave and hasn’t been happy in her job in a while. I would very much like her job if she doesn’t come back and believe that I would be a top candidate for it – her boss already likes me and thinks I do great work and hates the hiring process.

    Is there a way to let her boss know that I would be interested in the job if she doesn’t come back without making it look like I hope she doesn’t? I also don’t want my own manager to know that I’m interested in other departments if it’s unlikely to happen.

    1. ten ton trucks*

      What would talking to her boss help? I don’t know the situation, if it would actually help in the search, then it might be worth it. But otherwise I don’t see how that helps you. If the coworker doesn’t come back, they’ll start the hiring process and then you can apply or make your interest clear. Even if that boss hates the hiring process, they’d still have to do *something*, I assume, to hire someone.

    3. Rey*

      I wouldn’t say anything to her boss, and I would stop participating in any conversation that focuses on whether or not she’s coming back. I think that could easily be misinterpreted as trying to push her out, which will look even worse if you do actually get her job at some future date. (Of course, you can do all the prep work for a job search: work on your resume/cover letter, polish up your resume, make sure you’re working hard on you current projects, etc.)

    4. HQB*

      Are you covering any of her work at all? If so that’s a great opening to say to your boss “I’ve really been enjoying working on X and Y while covering for Ursula; if there’s ever an opportunity to move into a role like hers, I’d be very interested.” If not, maybe tweak it to avoid any mention of Ursula: “I’ve found that I’ve really been enjoying X and Y; if there’s ever an opening in your group for an XYZ wrangler I’m definitely interested.”

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yeah, especially if you already have a good relationship with Ursula’s manager, I don’t think it’d hurt to mention that you’ve enjoyed the work and would be interested in doing more in the future. If she knows you like it, she’s more likely to think of you if/when the time comes. (and if Ursula comes back, well, maybe someone else doing a similar job will leave, and she’ll think of you then!)

  60. Saraquill*

    Months long lurker, first time poster.

    I want to know if such a job ever existed, or if my classmate pulled this out of her ear.

    We were in a high school which insisted people would throw money at us if we went to the “right” college. My classmate told us her brother got paid $100,000 a year to work until noon. Even then, he and his buddies spent most of their time playing video games, except when their boss called them onto the stock room floor. The implication was that his job was a reward for attending the the “right” college.

    Now that I have years of actual work experience, this sounds suspect.

    1. Catsaber*

      Sounds pretty suspect! Typically when I hear something like that, I think 1) it’s fake, or 2) it’s illegal and they needed “employees” as a cover.

      There are certainly jobs where they just need a person on-site and they are allowed to play games, watch movies, etc. And perhaps also leave at noon. But I’ve never heard of one that paid 100k.

      1. irene adler*

        Agreed!
        Only job I can think of that might meet this is Merchant Marine with lots of years of experience.
        They can’t leave the ship, but they do have lots of hours of down time.
        My cousin told me about a guy who brought his drum set aboard. He practiced for hours each day, well out of earshot of everyone.

    2. knork*

      I did encounter one “that can’t possibly be real” job that turned out to be real. A friend of a friend had a job translating American sports broadcasts for rich Chinese businessmen with a really fast turnaround. So we was sort of on-call and frequently working at 3 in the morning, but he was also making a ridiculous amount of money on commission.

    3. EmmaBird*

      Well, to some extent I think such jobs exist, but they don’t exist without drawbacks. I know someone in an upper management role (at the end of his career, too, notably) who gets paid like $90k a year and has two distinct seasons in his role: a “busy” season where he works 8-3 and nothing more and then a slow season where he literally works from 9-12… and that’s almost half the year. It’s a pretty great arrangement… but he also hasn’t had a raise in like ten years. So that’s the drawback he’s accepted for that kind of flexibility. Though I’d still totally accept those terms as a 30-year-old not making that kind of money lol.

    4. Grapey*

      Well, I got that same kind of job (but don’t abuse it) from going to a super cheap state school….so it obviously HELPS if you go to a school where your frat bros can give you a job, but hard work in school and networking every chance I got did it for me.

    7. Alex*

      In my experience the people who get those jobs didn’t get them because they went to the right college–they got them because their families owned the business.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Right! The only thing going to the right college might get you is a chance to marry someone whose family owned that kind of business.

  61. Beth*

    I wrote two weeks ago for additional advice for getting a very noisy office neighbor to keep it down on personal phone calls. After typing it out, reading through the archives, and realizing how much effort I was putting into making this work, I realized I could just take myself out of the equation. I went to my boss (again) and asked to just switch offices.

    I was out of the office last week, so I’ve just sent the IT request to transfer my phone and I should be moved next week. I’m not helping the underlying issue of the ongoing (incredibly loud) personal phone calls, or anything else that is an issue with this coworker, but that’s not my job and it’s very freeing to just not have to worry about it anymore.

    1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

      I moved cubicles a while back and it has made a world of difference. Glad you were able to switch!

  62. KEG*

    Wondering if anyone had any advice on hiring for fit over experience?
    I have a unique role in my company, I’m the only one who does what I do, and we’ve decided to hire another me because I’m maxed out and unable to evolve my role due to the workload volume. I’ve been reviewing resumes and getting discouraged because I’m going to train this person from scratch so their experience has less weight than whether they’re the right type of person to do this work. Any suggestions on how to screen, interview, etc. for fit?

    1. Catsaber*

      Make a list of important items that fall into “fit” so you have a more concrete idea of what you are looking for. Look for signs of those things in the interview. I always found it helpful to ask a person questions that make them describe their thinking process, like a troubleshooting question. The answer tells me 1) how they think and approach situations 2) how they articulate their thoughts 3) how they organize information. Situational questions can be great at illuminating a person’s priorities and approach to work.

    2. Mazzy*

      I would make the cover letter a necessary requirement and ask them to answer a question or two that will describe the fit. It will shrink the candidate pool, yes, but will get you better responses from the smaller pool. I just hired for a role like this, except it wasn’t so much fit as it was a mindset and ability to think and come up with certain questions. I made an example of three simple problems we regularly face and asked them to come up with any sort of question they’d ask to get the information they’d need to solve the problems, no right or wrong answer, but I got a sense for if they can think and how good their ideas are, and how pertinent their way of thinking is to the role. You can also just ask “what would you do/ask/research if” questions during a phone screen.

    3. Anonymous Coward*

      My first “real job” came from a req like this. The company used a temp agency, actually (could you use a recruiter to do that footwork for you?), and asked them to send over X number of “people who seem really smart but kinda weird and don’t fit in anywhere” (I recall my old boss saying to me years later) to see if they could be trained into an appropriate-fit employee. I think there were 6 the month I was hired? One failed out pretty quickly. The rest of us stayed for various lengths of time (2-8+ years) and moved around the company as positions opened up.

  63. incompetemp's colleague*

    Hi,

    I don’t know if anyone remembers me, but I’m the one with the nutty temp working for an “animal crackers” company. Since I posted, the temp lost the competition for the one-year position (but still had the option of being renewed to stick around), I shared my concerns to my team lead (he was aware, and in fact, had had a talk with her), and she ultimately decided to leave. Today’s her last day, and honestly, I wish a bizarre coworker was the least of my worries right now. I had mentioned in my post that I escaped a very toxic workplace and that I was happy and zen here.

    One of the main reasons I left was because of a manager. He was just hired at my new job, and will be working just a few steps away from my office as of next week.

    To make a very long story short, my ex-job was no bueno, but it became even more unbearable when Fergus was hired on as a new tier of management. We welcomed him into the team hoping he could help, but he wreaked havoc. He lied, committed fraud, tried to get people to commit fraud, accused someone of committing fraud for refusing to commit fraud, caused in-fighting by blaming things on others, basically made fun of my weight (in a kinda backwards way), etc. In the span of a year, five of the twelve-person team were either out on burnout leave or pre-burnout therapy. People were crying in their offices on a regular basis.

    We finally banded together. 11 out of 12 employees filed a complaint against him, although despite my recommendation to do so, we didn’t involve our unions. The one employee who sat out did so because she felt it was a conflict of interest because she’d applied for his position. She did, however, contribute to our meetings and the “file” we had on him. I have a six-page document detailing my personal experiences with this guy as well as a 2-page bullet point list of all my grievances. Everyone else had similarly long lists of complaints.

    It was a trainwreck. The employer did nothing. A small slap on the wrist, that’s it.

    A few weeks after the whole ting concluded, I came in one Monday morning, had a panic attack for the first time in my life (legit thought I was dying), but managed to call a colleague. She got the big-big boss and he forced me to go to the health clinic on campus and I was given two weeks burnout leave. This was my breaking point. To this day, I can’t think about that morning without being super uncomfortable. I was done. I applied for a job at the government and a few months later, thank Zeus, I was hired.

    At that point, the toxic manager had taken a temporary assignment elsewhere on campus, but I was done done DONE. I left. I took a significant pay cut to get away from this guy and that place.

    And now Fergus is here. I heard his voice Monday and I had a pretty intense visceral reaction to it (which I recognize isn’t normal, but like, bodies be cray, yo?). I ducked into two of my colleagues’ office and freaked out. (I was TRYING to make it to the bathroom but failed.)

    My colleagues were super understanding and once I was calm, got my boss to explain the situation. They were all very supportive and protective of me and swore I’d be protected against this guy, but I’m terrified. I cannot handle being around him. I’m afraid he’s going to try and retaliate because I reported him at my old job. I’m afraid he’s going to poison my well of happiness. I’m scared to leave my cubicle for fear I’ll see him walking down the hall. I keep seeing bald people and getting those little pangs of panic thinking it’s him.

    I don’t know what to do. I love my job. That’s something I haven’t been able to say in a really REALLY long time. I’m supported here, appreciated (my boss calls me a rockstar), the environment is nice and healthy…but I don’t think I can handle being around this guy. I don’t have any history of anxiety or depression or anything like that. This kind of thing has never happened to me in my life.

    What do I do? Do I quit? Do I go talk to HR and ask for accommodations? Like “Hey listen I have a really bad history with this person, I want to make sure I am NEVER in a room alone with him and not get penalized for that.”? I don’t know what to do.

    Does anyone have advice? :(

    1. Amber Rose*

      Therapy! Even if you’re never alone with him, the sound of his voice and just seeing him around is something you are going to have to accept, and being too scared to leave your cubicle is no way to live.

      1. incompetemp's colleague*

        It’s so weird how normal it feels to try and hide, but yeah, if someone else told me they were doing that, I’d be concerned for them. I guess I just got used to it from my old job. It’s sad to say, but I’d actually changed my breakfast time just so I could avoid crossing him in the lunchroom.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I have been there. It’s really hard to see how not normal things are when you’re right in the middle of them for so long. Now is a really good time to re-adjust your sense of normality and take back your life. He’s not worth this much of your time and pain.

    2. HQB*

      I think you should talk to HR about being worried that he will target you for reporting him for past fraud; if you have good HR and your boss on your side they’ll likely work with you to figure out resonable boundaries, but you’ll also have it in records (make sure to put your concerns in writing) in case he does try to pull anything.

      1. incompetemp's colleague*

        That’s really good advice, thank you. I’m also trying to set up an unofficial meeting with one of my union reps not to get the union involved, but to get advice on how to deal with this in this workplace. The rep has a lot of experience here (like 15+ years) and has seen anything. If anyone knows the steps to take to protect myself, it’d be him.

        1. valentine*

          Why not let the union protect you? It seemed like you thought that, had they been involved, he wouldn’t have ended up with you now? Would his fraud have been more widely known? Did no one leak it to the press?

          Take off as much time as possible and job-search. You shouldn’t have to learn to tolerate this fiend.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Ask your boss what your options are.
      EAP / Therapy – do this no matter what, you read like an assault survivor, and therapy can help you develop coping tools.
      Accommodations you can ask your boss about:
      Can one of you be moved to a different floor or even office building?
      Can you limit exposure through wfh a day a week?
      Not being alone in a room with him, without penalty – totally reasonable. TOTALLY.
      Not work on projects with him, without penalty.

      Your boss needs to know about the ‘requested people commit fraud’ and should probably let Fergus’s boss know to watch for it.

      Don’t quit – they’ll figure it out when he repeats the pattern (because he will), and he’ll be gone before too long. Good luck.

      1. incompetemp's colleague*

        We do have an EAP, I didn’t think to contact them. Thanks, I’ll see what they have to say. I know my reaction was, uhhh…not exactly normal. I don’t know how much of it was it being him and how much was the shock of him and all the negative feelings from my previous employment flooding back to me at once. Like, hopefully it won’t be as bad next time. I feel really lousy for being so freaked out about him. It’s not like he’s going to reach over my cubicle wall and strangle me or anything.

        I’ll see how next week goes once he’s actually working here, and in the meantime (well, it’s friday afternoon now so more like monday) I’ll start moving on this.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Actually, given what you have been through with this guy, your reaction was very normal. I second the therapy, letting union rep know. Your coworkers like you and have reacted compassionately – thank goodness for this. Union rep can help guide you on what if anything to say to your HR and/or boss.

          I do recommend that you write a narrative about what happened at old company. Use concrete examples of what he did. Write down names of who was involved and witnesses (and their contact info if you have it). Sign it, date it. KEEP IT AT HOME. If you have to use it at work, make a copy to bring in. Never give away your original or bring it to work, even for a second.

          Good luck.

        2. Indie*

          He’s legitimately a danger to people’s livelihoods and reputation though. I think what you went through was sincerely traumatic and this is what brains do when they see a danger trigger; they tell you to get away. He is registered as such a nearby danger that all bald heads have new danger meanings. There are ways to manage triggers, but HAVING them is truly normal.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Here is an attitude to reach for, though it’s a big leap from where you’re starting: in the long run, you do not need to be afraid of him. But he should be very afraid of you. Think of smiling at him whenever you see him as if you both know this is true. It is a feeling of secret power that can calm the fear. And indeed you are ready for his shenanigans and you have backup. He’s likely still on probation and if he puts a foot wrong he can be gone.

    5. Advice*

      I think you should tell your boss exactly what Fergus did in his prior position that warranted 11 employees filing serious complaints against him. Be straight-forward about it, don’t make this sound like it’s just a personal issue between yourself and Fergus – because it’s not. Above you mention things like lying, fraud, bullying… those actions should make any decent employer think hard about hiring or keeping on the accused, if they trust the word of the accuser. If your boss really does think you are a rock star, this is the time when you need to play that card and be prepared to say that if Fergus stays, you will not. Of course, only you can know if you are willing to go that far and quit over this, but I think if anything is worth quitting over, this would be it.

      Years ago I worked in a local government office that had a department manager who was a nightmare to deal with, and who did almost no work to boot. Every admin person who had to work under her would move on as soon as they could (either quitting or transferring departments). Upper management did nothing about it. No one ever pushed the issue so it was easy for them to treat her as a missing stair and turn a blind eye to the whole situation. Finally the current admin, who really was a rock star at her job, went to the director and gave him the ultimatum – either she goes or I do. And you know what? By the end of the week the toxic manager was gone. I’m not saying that this will absolutely happen in your case, but I don’t think you have a lot to lose by trying.

      I want to re-emphasize that you will get a lot further if you do not frame this as a personal issue between you and Fergus. If you are comfortable with it you can certainly mention some of the problems that you had with him, but I would focus on the fact that he is a bad employee who is known for causing major problems with co-workers. Don’t let your boss think this is just you being anxious for no reason, because you have a multitude of great reasons! If your employer is able to withdraw their offer / cancel Fergus’ contract, now will be the time they can do that. I really do wish you the best in dealing with this.

      1. Llellayena*

        I second this. If you still have that document you prepared at your last job, I’d show it to your manager, HR, and possibly this guy’s hiring manager. Best case: they tell him they won’t be hiring him after all. (How did he get past references anyway?) Worst case: they know to keep a close eye on him for when history repeats itself.

        1. incompetemp's colleague*

          Thank you, yeah you’re both right.

          For his references, I’m guessing someone somewhere liked him. Or hated him and lied to get him out. Who really knows. :\

      2. incompetemp's colleague*

        I haven’t given my boss the WHOLE story, but I don’t think he wants to hear it. That is to say, I (and my colleagues) gave him a few small details and that was enough to flick his momma bear switch. He said he’s going to watch him VERY closely. So if nothing else, I’m extremely fortunate that my boss already has an idea of the situation and trusts me enough to know this isn’t just me having a personal issue.

        Fergus is on probation, and thankfully probations at my workplace last an entire year, so the chances of him slipping up on his own are pretty high.

  64. ALM2019*

    I need some MS Word help, I’ve googled but can’t seem to find the right answer so I thought this was the best place to ask.

    Is it possible to edit a password protected document when it is open in Read Only mode by another user? We use shared documents which are password protected to edit, however I find they are often left open in Read Only mode and then I cannot make edits even though I have the password. Is there any way around this?

    Thank you!

    1. Middle Manager*

      Could you save a separate version for yourself as a reference document and send out a password protected shared version?

      1. ALM2019*

        No, the most recent version always needs to be available in the shared location. I do update a separate copy and overwrite the shared one when it’s available to make it less time consuming for me.

        1. valentine*

          When you open it, one of the options is edit to merge later.

          But why not ask them to close it and choose notify?

    3. weird magnet*

      You need to change the view from “read-only” to “edit document”. The view menu is at the top of the page.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Depends on how it’s been marked read-only. If it’s using the read-only attribute on the file, and you have rights, you can toggle off the read-only attribute, open the document, edit it, save it, and toggle back on the read-only flag. During this, the person with the open file won’t see the changes, but them having the document open won’t lock the file for editing.

      If the file is read-only because someone else has already opened it in edit mode, and you get a ‘this document is locked for editing for another user’ then the only way to save changes is to save it as a new file or wait for the file to be closed.

  65. Anonymous for Today*

    So my CEO resigned yesterday due to political pressure and I’m not happy.

    I’m not naming anything, but I am talking about who you think I’m talking about in the US. It’s a headline.

    He was working hard toward change for the last two years and it’s hard to see the inside improvement from the outside. I feel like he was a scapegoat.

    The hardest part is that I agree my industry needs regulation, but I think this is a step too far.

    Ever have a change in leadership you didn’t expect and didn’t agree with? Looking for some advice on how to manage my feelings while keeping business going.

    1. Anon Anon*

      I don’t know if this is helpful, but here’s I think about leadership transitions in general: political pressure is a fact of life in that role. Many, many CEOs are exited before they would choose to leave. That’s just how that role works, and those leaders factor it in to how they think about their careers — what roles they choose, what they set out to accomplish in a given role, the risks they take or don’t take, the compensation they negotiate, and so on.

      (For context, I manage a leadership cohort of CEOs and have hosted conversations with dozens of CEOs about this kind of thing.)

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I saw that news, know exactly what you are talking about because I was there too, and commiserate.

    3. Pink Shoelaces*

      I’m trying to get in with that company and had a coffee with someone who works there this morning. She felt the exact same way about it. I don’t have advice, but wanted to let you know you’re not alone!

    4. HQB*

      As a counterpoint, I know three people who were fairly high up in this organization who left it in the last year because they felt like the changes that were being made were superficial and not addressing the deeper problems, and that often lower-ranking workers, even interns, were scapegoated for problems that were caused by people above them. And I think this particular CEO, whether he was doing a good job or not, was hobbled by his long past at the organization and was never a good choice to replace his predecessor because of that. Here’s hoping a new broom sweeps clean.

      1. Anonymous for Today*

        That’s fair. I work in a change management area so I have a different perspective based on the results and experience I’ve had under this CEO. In my area, there’s a focus on repairing the reputation we garnered in the last few years.

        Part of the reason that I am upset is that I believe the issues were squarely on the watch of the previous CEO. That’s why I think he’s just a political scapegoat rather than someone who should leave based on his performance.

    5. Anonymous 2*

      If it’s the one I see – manage the feelings by looking at the bigger picture.

      The company has failed to pay back people fraudulently forced to buy duplicate car insurance when they got loans, which it was supposed to do starting in 2017. He hasn’t made much progress towards that because he hasn’t chosen to fund the effort. That’s on him.

      The internal changes he’s put in place may reduce the harm done in the future, but that’s not the terms of the deal they made three years ago.

      The other issue may be scapegoating, he was only one of many ‘senior executives’, but that one – it really matters that the company pay people back.

    6. Mazzy*

      Pretty sure I know who you’re talking about. The news story seemed weird, it didn’t state a particular reason for his ousting. Personally, I’ve been in “change management” type roles, and it usually takes a few YEARS to effect real change.

  66. hello from the arctic circle*

    i’m desperate to get out of my current position as soon as possible — the short version is that i was hired (higher ed) with the understanding that i was going to be working full-time and going to graduate school part-time, and that wasn’t an issue. new boss has been making this as difficult as possible and has explicitly said it was a good thing i got hired before he took over because he never would have agreed to that. in addition to that, the department is a nightmare, i’m discouraged from reporting things i should be reporting, and my office is where every task no one else wants to do goes to die. (i’m meant to be a program coordinator, but i’m doing things that should be housed in the financial office, things the faculty should be doing themselves, and things the assistant to the chair should be doing now that she’s back from maternity leave but won’t take back from me.) i’ve been hunting for a full-time position elsewhere on campus (because of that sweet, sweet tuition waiver …) without any luck, so i turned to also looking for a graduate assistantship as a backup plan. that would more or less mean i’d be a full-time student again, but with a part-time gig and stipend to go along with a waiver that covers more hours, so there are pros and cons to it that i’ve weighed and if i need to make it work, i can.

    i’ve moved on to the references stage for an assistantship that i think i would genuinely enjoy and get a lot of learning experience out of (and i feel like the culture in that program would be a great change for me), but i also just got called for an interview for a full-time position that’s similar to what i’m doing now. i don’t love the overwhelming majority of my job now (only the interaction with students, which is minimal at best), but i’d be doing a lot of the same stuff at a smaller volume. i haven’t been able to get a sense for what their timeline for hire is, and i don’t think i’d turn down the assistantship in favor of getting out of here, but a full-time paycheck would be much better.

    my interview for the full-time gig is the first and i don’t know if there will be further rounds, but if they’re going to move slowly, i don’t know that i’ll be in a position to hold up the assistantship process for long, if at all. at what point during the interview process should you let someone know that you more or less have an offer on the table and need to let the other party know soon?

    1. lmj*

      So, take this with a grain of salt. I’m not super familiar with how a GA program works, but this is how I’ve been coached to handle this with multiple industry offers/interviews going on.

      When you get an offer, ask them for some time to consider the offer and then go tell the other possibility, “Hey, I have an offer and I have X time to give them my decision. If there’s anything we can do to fast-track the interview process here, I would greatly appreciate that.” And then you try to be ultra-available for last minute interviews.

  67. HR Maybe?*

    I work in leadership development (managing leadership development programs in the nonprofit sector), and am considering a career move into HR. I’d love to hear from folks about what they love or hate about their work, what a transition could look like, what kind of education is useful/etc.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Hi! HRIS Specialist here. I’m more in the tech and data analysis side of HR these days, but I was previously on track to become a Generalist at some point, so I’ve seen a bit of that side as well.

      My favorite thing about it is that very little of my job is routine. Even stuff that’s semi-routine, like processing paperwork, usually has some unique aspect to it. Things are pretty fast-paced in the HR departments I’ve seen, though it seems to have more of a crunch/lull pattern than just go-go-go all the time.

      I also like that I often have opportunities to help people, whether they realize it or not. There are several employees at my company that don’t know it, but I’m the one who pushed for them to get a pay adjustment, and I was the one who gathered the data and presented the case and got their manager and regional manager on board with the idea. I’m not the one who made the decision, but if I hadn’t done the research and learned that we had a parity problem on certain teams, then flagged that for the right people who could make the decision and offered them recommendations on how to fix it, those employees would still be making what they were making before, and I’m proud that I was able to help make that difference for them. There was a guy we had here for a few years, where I was part of the recruiting team and pushed pretty hard to get him hired because I thought he’d be perfect for the role – when he left after about 4 years, it was for a more community-development-oriented role (at one of our partner organizations) than a strictly operations role, and when we talked before he left, he thanked me because he would never have known this was what he really wanted to do, if I hadn’t helped him get into our organization where he was exposed to it.

      The only real downside is that you are always at a little bit of a distance from non-HR coworkers, by necessity. That’s why I’m not sure I could do solo HR at a small company – it works for me here because I’ve got a really great team that I get along well with so those are my work friendships, and I don’t usually feel the lack from those outside of HR. You will also be blamed for things, and you’ll hear people talking *constantly* about how “HR is there for the company, not you!” which…sometimes, some HR departments are like that, but more often that’s not the case and HR is trying to protect BOTH the employee and the company.

      Education-wise, a bachelor’s degree is helpful (not necessary for the actual work, in my experience, but you need one to get hired usually) – in HRM is best, but also business in general or something adjacent. (Honestly, I have a degree in HRM, and I also have 5 years of experience in HR, and 99% of what I need to know for my day-to-day was learned on the job, not through the degree program.) There are certifications you’d want to get eventually, though you’d only be eligible to do the aPHR until you’ve got a few years of HR experience. There are courses designed for people who are taking on HR responsibilities, though, one- or two-day events that cover the basics of labor law, functional areas of HR, that kind of thing. Definitely look into one of those.

      Understand that labor law can be a complex beast, it’s heavily dependent on where you’re located, and you always need to be keeping abreast of new developments so you can make sure you’re handling situations correctly. I’m the kind of nerd who finds that fascinating so I love doing that, but you might not be.

      For transitioning in, given your background, I’d suggest looking for training/staff development roles. In some companies, that’s an HR function (and in fact, where are you located? I work for a nonprofit that’s literally just started looking for a training and staff development manager…) and can help get you into the department where you can go about learning the rest of it as you go.

      1. SinSA*

        This is excellent information! I am also looking to hopefully transition into HR sooner rather than later and the training/staff development side sounds like fun!

  68. Middle Manager*

    Can I get in an extra “Is this normal”?

    I was in a training with my staff member and some members of the public. During one of the exercises she shared a really personal story about childhood abuse. The training was not on abuse. The exercise was not on abuse. She used it as an example of why some people might be shy. It was not a brief mention, she gave some graphic details and it went on for two or more minutes. It really distracted from the exercise/training and seemed really inappropriate to me.

    I am not very into personal sharing at work, so I want to keep that in mind as my bias, but I’d love to hear other people’s opinions. Normal? Not Normal? Should I say something to her about oversharing?

    1. Catsaber*

      Eh, it’s common for oversharers to pop up in random places. I’ve had complete strangers at the grocery store tell me all about their relative’s health sagas for simply saying “Excuse me” while I tried to get past them in the aisle.

      If it’s an isolated incident, then I’d let it go. But if she is oversharing constantly, to the point that it’s a distraction at work, then I’d speak to her. I think there are some good posts here that Allison has done about how to handle oversharers.

    2. Jadelyn*

      I agree with you that that’s oversharing. I mean, I appreciate that she was trying to be fully involved and some people learn best by relating things to their own stories, but for all she or you know there were other abuse survivors in the room as well, who maybe could’ve done without hearing about that kind of thing.

      I’d suggest having a talk with her – it doesn’t need to be huge or dramatic, but just a reminder that in group sessions like that, you don’t know where everyone else is coming from and that type of story could be deeply upsetting and/or triggering to others, and especially with members of the public present you need to be mindful of just how graphic or personal you get in the things you share.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        TBH if it was totally off topic I might have tried to redirect in the moment, if possible. People didn’t come to the training to get sucked into someone else’s therapy session, and it is presumably not the impression your org is trying to make. But if there was no way to do it in the moment with tact, I would absolutely bring it up afterward. I assume it was not in keeping with the purpose of the training. You can do it with kindness and compassion but still make it clear that this is not in line with your expectations going forward. Suggest the EAP if there is one or another more appropriate venue.

        1. Middle Manager*

          Thanks. I wanted to jump in at the time, but it felt hard to do without embarrassing her (which she is pretty hypersensitive about). But I think it’s worth having a conversation about at her next 1-1.

    3. KEG*

      This didn’t happen to me at work, but it did in University. A female classmate of mine felt the need to overshare with me also, about something similar to your example, out of the blue. In a weird way I think that was her way of tying to ‘initiate a friendship’ with me. It was very bizarre. She acted very jealous of any friendships I had with other classmates, like I was betraying her because she had shared private stuff with me or something.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        You went to college with my mother in law? This is something she does, “let’s confide all of our secrets in each other so we can bond and be close.” Not realizing that you have to bond and get to be closet to people on a more general level *before* you share all your secrets with each other.

        She means well, though.

    4. fposte*

      “Is it normal?” and “Is it appropriate?” are two different questions :-). Yes, it’s normal for people to overshare at work. That doesn’t make it appropriate. If this is your staff member, you can redirect her in a situation like this in the moment; you can also set the ground rules before such exercises in future. I feel for the staffer, who clearly has a story that troubles her and that she needs to tell, but graphic details could be a problem for other abuse survivors participating, and it also can be hard for the group to move on to something practical when somebody’s bared their heart like that.

      At this point I wouldn’t bring it up to her unless you think it was a really big problem or is part of an ongoing unawareness, but I’d set ground rules, especially if the public were involved, about professional focus in future.

    5. ten ton trucks*

      It’s normal. It’s inappropriate and unprofessional, but it happens. It might be worth mentioning that it went a bit too into detail and might have derailed discussion, but I don’t know if it’s worth doing that unless you have a great relationship with her.

      1. Middle Manager*

        We don’t have a great relationship. She’s not a good employee and she’s on a PIP. She’s also hyper sensitive to anything she perceives as criticism.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          I wouldn’t address this with her, if she’s already on a PIP for performance. Just prepare a script for interrupting it in the moment and redirecting…
          “I am shy because ”
          “Yes, there are lots of reasons people might not want to speak up in a situation. Let’s move into how to get the thing done”

    6. softcastle mccormick*

      Nothing helpful to add, but just wanted to validate you and say it shouldn’t be normal. I also have two serious oversharing coworkers (graphic sex talk/therapy discussion/in depth family issues) and it’s really hard to deal with, because our supervisor isn’t around enough to see it. It’s hard because these types of people also tend to be really sensitive to criticism. I feel you, though–your situation would have made me very uncomfortable as an attendee.

    7. otherOther*

      “The training was not on abuse. The exercise was not on abuse. She used it as an example of why some people might be shy.”

      This makes me wonder if it was meant… intentionally to make you feel uncomfortable? I admit that I’ve pulled out uncomfortable-for-other-people stories when someone was trying to pry details out of me as a sort of “fine here, have your details. Oh no now you’re uncomfortable. Maybe you should have let me change the subject”. (I’ve never done this in a work scenario, but I have in social scenarios with older people who insisted on asking me about my family, after multiple attempts to change the subject or brush off the questions)
      I kinda wonder if you had said something that she perceived (correctly or not) as judgy of shy people and did that as a sort of “so There, you’re Wrong because now you Feel Bad” thing.

      On the other hand, she could just be very matter-of-fact about it and not have an emotional reaction to talking about it, therefore it might not occur to her that other people very often will have a reaction to it. This is especially possible if she’s young or if she’s just genuinely unaware of how horrible the details she shared were. I’ve talked to a lot of people and you often get like “Everything Is Shameful And Must Be Secret” people or “This Is Completely Normal What Do You Mean” people.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I can see that happening, but that wasn’t this situation. We were doing the exercise as a table. No one was pressuring her to talk and certainly not to talk about herself personally. She shared it ver eagerly.

    8. Mazzy*

      I don’t think it’s normal and I will also add that it will make people much more shy to share in the future. What did the speaker hope to gain? Make attendees afraid to talk to other people, or actually fix a legitimate issue?

    9. ..Kat..*

      Just a possible explanation about why she might have done this.

      People who were raised in an abusive family have been trained to keep the secret. The worse the abuse, the bigger the secret, the more pressure to not talk about it. When such people become adults, they start to realize how what happened to them was not normal. They do not know how to interact normally with people. The secret pops out at inappropriate times in blurts like this. Captain Awkward explains this in more detail.

      Not an excuse, just an attempt at an explanation. If your company has an EAP program, it would be a kindness to tell her that based on what she said, you hope she is getting assistance, and if not, here is our EAP contact number.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Yes, that makes sense. Thanks. I have suggested our EAP to her for other situations (when she went on the PIP and was very anxious). I think it would be good to bring it up again.

  69. Bubarina*

    Huzzah! I passed my dissertation defense yesterday! It was so relieving to be called back into the deliberation room as Dr. Bubarina. I have revisions to make (and very little motivation to work on them this weekend), but I’m so close now. And best of all, my committee thinks I can get at least SIX publications out of my dissertation compared to the usual 3 or 4 for my field.

    Thank you to everyone who gave me last minute advice last weekend. I appreciate the time you took to calm my nerves.

      1. Bubarina*

        Thank you! There’s a lot of work ahead to make sure that happens, but it feels fantastic to know it’s a possibility.

    5. curly sue*

      Fantastic! Well done, and definitely take a couple of days to decompress before tackling the edits, if you have the time.

      1. Bubarina*

        I am going to take some time to decompress. I thought I would be super productive this weekend, but the 90-minute massage I had earlier today convinced me otherwise.

  70. Jadelyn*

    Wish me luck, y’all! We’re re-reorg’ing our HR department and I was asked for an updated job description. The one we submitted for me last time still had some admin stuff hanging on to it, and the data analysis stuff was kinda de-emphasized (that was revisions on HQ’s end, not the job description we sent them), and the initial proposed title of HR Analyst got knocked down to either HRIS Specialist or HR Systems Specialist, depending on which set of paperwork you’re looking at.

    But I submitted the new one yesterday afternoon, and it’s much meatier, all the admin stuff is gone, and I explicitly told my manager I’d like to take another run at getting that Analyst title this time. So, fingers crossed that HQ doesn’t whittle it back down again like they did last time.

    And, if anyone has an HR Analyst or HRIS Analyst type of title and would be willing to share some of your job description to help with my pushback if HQ *does* try to put me back in my old box, that would be great, let me know!

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Good luck! I’m not in that type of role, but perhaps a quick job search could give you some additional job descriptions to review?

      1. Jadelyn*

        Oh believe me, I’ve been doing that. I lifted some verbiage off a few postings on Indeed when I was writing the document yesterday. :)

  71. Cereal Killer*

    Another contractor question:
    I have always worked in a full-time, exempt role. But am considering leaving this behind for the flexibility of contracting (contracting roles are very popular in the field I work in). I currently make 100K with standard benefits (PTO, 401K, health insurance). But recruiters I’m talking to suggest an hourly rate of $50 as a conversion from my salary. Does this seem right? Or should I be asking for more to cover the benefits I’m losing? Thanks

    1. ten ton trucks*

      You should ask for more because, as you said, you’re losing a lot in the transfer and will have other problems like tax issues to deal with.

    2. Jess*

      How many hours a week are you working now? If that 100k is for 40 hours a week, $50/hr would be a pay cut roughly equivalent to the cost of your benefits. If you’re working about 50 hours a week now, then it sounds about right.

    3. irene adler*

      That’s not right.
      At $100K/year, that’s $50 per hour (approx.). So going contract, you need to boost this to cover taxes and benefits that you will need to pay for.
      My understanding is that all of these expenses are at least an additional 30%. So really, you need $65 per hour- if not more.

      1. ..Kat..*

        I have read that when becoming a contractor (if you will be responsible for all taxes and benefits), you should double your hourly rat.

    4. Enough*

      Also what are the tax consequences? As a contractor I believe you would be responsible for the employer contributions to Social Security and Medicare. That would be an additional 7.65%. Standard IRA limits would be lower than what’s available in a 401(k) so you might want to have additional taxable investments. And you want to cover the costs of insurance your company covers which could be $1000/month. So that would be made that an additional $30,000/year for SS and Medicare, health insurance and payments to a traditional IRA and a Roth. That brings you to $62.50/hour.

    5. wandering_beagle*

      The several contracting companies I’ve worked for have all offered some version of 401k and health insurance (although they have not always had the greatest of plan options), they just don’t offer PTO. So, maybe ask for a bit more hourly to cover for any time off and offset the cost of having to pay more for your health insurance.

    6. 867-5309*

      It depends entirely on the market and field. In Columbus, Ohio, a communications or marketing person can easily make $100k in salary + more when taking into account benefits, but $50-$75 is about the right starting hourly wage for freelance person without a network of work.

    7. Someone Else*

      That math is terrible. If you’re going out on your own,let’s assume you give yourself 4 weeks vacation, 5 sicks days, and 10 holidays, that means you’re only working 45 weeks a year. Assume you want to work 40 hours a week. The rate they suggested would only get you to 90k and ignores the tax differences and that you’ll be paying 100% of your health insurance instead of it being presumably partially subsidized by an employer.
      If they’re suggesting that rate because that’s the going rate for a contractor doing the type of stuff you’d be doing, then it may be good advice, but if the point was to suggest a rate that would position you comparably to your current compensation, they’re way off. That said, if the market rate would be to charge only $50/hour or near to it, then that might mean switching to this model will result in a pay cut, which might be worth it to you for the flexibility. but you’ll also need to factor in that you might not have enough business to work as much as you want so there’s really a lot of math to do before deciding if this will work out for you.

  72. Triplestep*

    tl;dr – My manager made three of my 2019 goals her own. How much should I push back?

    New job is going well so far. I like my manager and her manager, and they like and appreciate my work.

    I was provided the 2019 goals of my manager and her manager from which to to develop my own goals. In her goal setting, half of my manager’s goals are actually my responsibilities. I am accountable for innovating, developing, and creating the work of three of her six goals. In one case, she actually took an idea I had my first week on the job and made it her goal. There is no verbiage that indicates she is “overseeing” or “guiding” or anything like that, and I am her only direct report.

    When I sent her my draft goals, I outlined in the email my concerns that I was accountable for these things, and further that I now only had one goal that was uniquely mine (implied: since she took three!) She wrote back so quickly it was clear she had only read the attachment and not the e-mail where I articulate my concern. She just said they were great, and good to go.

    What to do? I have been here two months. It leaves such a bad taste in my mouth!

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      This sounds completely normal to me.

      If I managed a team of nonprofit program managers, my goals for the year might be:

      1) Expand Program A from three sites to six sites
      2) Design new curriculum from Program B
      3) Achieve an average rating of 4.8/higher from all program participants
      4) Generate $100k in surplus/revenue

      Goals 1 & 2 would also be held by the managers of those programs. Goal 3 would be held by every program manager. Goal 4 would likely be split across multiple programs (Program A has a goal of generating a $50k surplus Program B has a goal of breaking even, Program C has a goal of generating a $75k surplus, and Program D has a goal of no more than $25k deficit).

      I would also have goals that were mine alone, around strategy/staff development/etc.

      1. Triplestep*

        So you would say you were going to “design” something when in fact someone else was going to own the whole thing from conception through completion?

        I have never seen this before. My managers have always written their goals to clearly show how my work meets their goals for company objectives, and then – as you said – have some of their own goals in addition.

        As an individual contributor and project manager, my actual output is mine. I don’t like the notion that at year end, she’ll be judged (and financially rewarded) on work that I am 100% accountable for, and comes under the my purview. I will be expected to take ownership, and I will be expected to handle them on my own. In her goals, she should be using umbrella terms that talk more about what my results are allowing her to deliver – not using language that indicates she is performing the actual work when she has me for that!

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          So you would say you were going to “design” something when in fact someone else was going to own the whole thing from conception through completion?

          Yes. Because if you’re on my team, it is my responsibility to make sure that work gets done. I’m responsible for what you do and do not accomplish. As a manager, my goals for the year are really the team’s goals.

          But I also think that you’re getting upset over semantics. If your goal was to “design curriculum,” and hers was “oversee the design of curriculum” that wouldn’t really change anything. The dynamic is still the same — she’s responsible for ending the year with new curriculum, and you are the person who is executing the intellectual work of writing new curriculum.

          And since you describe yourself as a project manager as well as an individual contributor, you’re probably also leaning on other people to get it done, right? You may be responsible for “designing curriculum,” but that probably involves working with a data team to analyze feedback from previous years, a graphic designer to actually create new print materials, a copy editor, admins, etc.

          1. Triplestep*

            If your goal was to “design curriculum,” and hers was “oversee the design of curriculum” that wouldn’t really change anything.

            Yes it would. You should be writing in your goals that you “lead a team delivering ‘x'” or “oversee the team implementing ‘y'” and then you will be reviewed based on your awesome abilities to lead and oversee those things.

            You as a manager have the opportunity to paint a picture of how you steered the ship and allowed a team to deliver “x” and “y” for the company – not that you, in fact, did those specific tasks. Likewise, the individual contributors on your staff do not have the opportunity to tout anything but their individual output. If you literally say you did their jobs what does it leave them to say about themselves?

            Do you also say on your resume that you did “x” and “y” when in fact you managed a team doing it? If not, then maybe that makes my point for me. If you do, then we have another issue, lol!

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Ok. I’m not actually interested in debating with you. Your initial post was a request for advice (“how much should I push back?” my response: not much), but it sounds like you’re looking more for affirmation/sympathy for a frustrating situation. I get it — but I don’t agree, so I’m not the right person to offer affirmation.

              1. Triplestep*

                Thanks for responding. I have decided just to let it go, but not because I think this is the right way for a manager to phrase things. I just don’t think I’m going to get very far by pushing and there’s more to lose than gain.

                I have never seen a manager say they are doing what, in fact, their staff is doing. It’s probably been 29 years since I saw my first goals/review process, and I’ve never seen a manager write the staff’s projects and tasks as their own goals. Not when I had staff, and not as a staff member. Interestingly, my manager’s boss didn’t do it and of course neither did her (big) boss. I was provided all of their goals from which to create my own. Both the other managers wrote their goals they way you’d think a manager would, or rather the way I think they would: with phrasing that indicates they are leading the charge, but not personally carrying out the tasks that the worker bees (like me) are.

    2. Marie*

      Congrats on your new job and on being proactive.

      In your situation, I would respond to your managers email “thank you for your positive feedback of my goals. What are your thoughts on my concerns for XYZ? I want to ensure we are on the same page about these expectations.” That should give her a clue that you had more in your email that she should have read and addressed.

      Good luck!

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks, I will probably do that! We have pretty good communication, and I can usually talk to her, but when we don’t agree she kind of shuts me down. I typically don’t care because a.) I am new and b.) I am “downwardly mobile”. I took this job specifically because I have about 10 more years before retirement and I don’t want climb the ladder anymore. This just feels like I might want to push back a bit though.

    3. Jadelyn*

      It’s pretty normal to have your goals overlap with your manager’s. Two people on a team can have the same goal! The way we do goals for our team is we get the department goals and basically divvy them up based on specializations and skills needed – but our manager’s goals always encompass those goals that we’re each taking on individually. You might *also* have a couple of unique goals, but I feel like you’re taking the “she stole my goals” thing a bit too literally and there’s probably not as much reason for concern as you think.

      1. Triplestep*

        Your goals are supposed to overlap with your manager’s to some degree; in my experience, managers provide them so you can develop your own from what they said they would accomplish and then add a few of your own.

        Two people on the team can have the same goals when two people have the same responsibilities. My manager oversees me (and only me) but our areas of responsibility are not the same. I am a subject matter expert with individual output, and because I am not a manager, I don’t have the opportunity to have goals that show how the results of my staff’s output meets company objectives. She has that opportunity and should use it. Instead she is pointedly saying that she will be creating the output that I will be creating pretty autonomously. (The response I wrote above might make more sense!)

        1. Jadelyn*

          Having read both this response, and the one above, I think we just have a fundamental disagreement about the nature of management goals vs individual contributor goals, and I’m just going to leave it at that.

    4. mkt*

      I agree with both Victoria Nonprofit and Jadelyn.

      Maybe it would help to reframe similar to a project RACI chart, that any particular specific goal may be held by more than one individual, but with different roles towards it. You are R – responsible for actually executing it, but at the end of the day it sounds like manager is A- Accountable for it and ensuring the job is completed.

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks for responding, and as I wrote upthead, I decided to drop it.

        I’m grateful for the responses here because I really had never seen manager goals written the way my manager did it, or like the example Victoria Nonprofit gave. But I don’t know whether to be amused or insulted that people seem to think there’s something I don’t understand. There are ways to phrase things to demonstrate a manager is leading a team who does the work, and I have never seen a manager NOT use it that language . Why would they not want to tout their leadership abilities? Or let their team members get credit for that they actually do?

        My organization is very flat, and I was hired by my manager’s boss because I have expertise that neither of them have. I am my manager’s only report, and she is her manager’s only report. The three of us are very autonomous. I replaced someone who did not perform and was “moved along” (This is a consultancy – she’s on another account now.) Thanks for the analogy, but believe me when I say that I am both R and A for these particular goals from conception through completion.

        1. valentine*

          Why not write your original goals in a fresh email and send it to your manager and hers? If you’re meant to have unique goals, one of them will tell you. You’re isolated under someone you don’t trust. Do what you can to toot your own horn and make sure her manager and others know what you own.

  73. Sick & tired*

    Ugh. My team lead has just started dating one of our interns. I don’t want to sound bitter, because I am happy for them being happy but I’m tired of all the sappy looks and googly eyes and all the romantic tension. My team lead can barely focus sometimes and the intern gets these puppy dog eyes every time she’s around or she calls him into her office. Thank-you for letting me vent about this. Happy Friday to all.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Yikes, that sounds really inappropriate! I hope this person doesn’t oversee the interns.

      1. valentine*

        Ew. All kinds of wrong. Even if their work doesn’t overlap, the power difference is just too great and it’s awful if lead oversees any intern (their paramour’s competition).

        You…don’t have to be happy for them.

  74. Doofus*

    Dear new employee who has difficulty following directions — I know you’re trying and that you’re eager to do well here at the company. I appreciate your enthusiasm. But, I would appreciate it more if I didn’t have to repeat the same instructions three different ways in order for you to do it or understand. It is OK if you don’t know how to do something. It is OK to ask. But when I write down instructions and you ignore half of them, I have to wonder whether you don’t know what to do/how to do it or you’re just not paying enough attention to what I’m sharing. To be quite frank, some of this behavior is what I would expect from someone with less experience or someone 10 years younger. I also don’t need validation that I told you to do something. I need you to tell me why you didn’t.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I am pretty brutal. I make them get their paper out and READ the steps to me and then they have to tell me which steps they missed.
      I tend to be harsh like that.

      2. Doofus*

        I tend to be unharsh and consistently irritated. The truth is, this kind of behavior doesn’t make me want to educate them, it just makes me more hands off. If my staffer refuses to ask for help and/or refuses to be responsible (ex. read the directions) I’m not going to waste my time. Some might argue that it’s more time wasteful to fix the mistake, but given the latest couple of scenarios, it’s actually been faster, easier for me to deal with something after they haven’t done what I’ve said, then hold their hand throughout the process. (To be clear, I’m much more lenient on someone with limited experience. This staffer is not new to the profession or the industry and has been working in a professional capacity for over 10 years.)

    3. BrilliantMistake*

      I know how frustrating that can be! That said, some people learn better by watching than reading instructions, some people learn better by doing themselves while being coached, etc. maybe ask this person (if they know) if they have a particular learning style?

      When I left my last job, I laughed to myself at the various notes I’d taken on different processes. They were embarrassing, that I’d written down what I’d thought was important in actuality was so unhelpful! Now, when I have the opportunity, I watch and LISTEN so I understand things in a “big picture” sense so the notes I take afterward or the next time I observe mean something and aren’t just my panicked-try-to-write-everything-down method.

      I’m not saying this is your fault at all, as it would seem they should be able to follow written instructions! At least their attitude bodes well for eventually getting it.

      1. Doofus*

        That would be fine if they preferred visual tools rather than written ones, though in some cases, it’s just not possible to demonstrate all activities. So, I need them to be able to accomplish the instructions being given or admit if they don’t understand something. When I tell you to buy red and yellow flowers at the store down the street. Don’t tell me that you only have 4 red tulips at your desk.

        1. BrilliantMistake*

          Oh, my! I am very easy-going for quite a while, but when I hit the wall of you-should-know-this-by-now, it’s a huge effort to keep going and being pleasant.

          If there are things you’ve noticed that they have picked up more easily/quickly, is there a common thread that you can identify and incorporate into the rest of it?

          It may end up that the new employee isn’t a good fit, no matter your/their efforts. In the end, they have to be responsible for their learning, and you need to feel you were as helpful as fair as you could be. (Document everything and keep anyone who needs to be in the loop on their progress (or lack thereof)).

          1. Doofus*

            I’m the same. I’m trying to keep an air of helpfulness and non-irritation in my responses. But, it does get more difficult. I haven’t really identified how to better clarify things in writing at this point. That said, there are some things they do quite well. But, this inability is a distraction. I feel like it’s a combination of lack of attention to detail and an unwillingness to admit they don’t understand something (which I would actually be pretty forgiving of). I don’t think that is something that can be taught. Though, at some point I realize I’ll have to address it.

    4. Amethystmoon*

      Have been there and done that. The new employee had difficulty following directions for the entire 3 years I was at that job. Sometimes they just don’t get it.

      1. Doofus*

        Yeah, I won’t lie, I’ve kind of resigned myself to the fact that this is just the way it is. Also, I’m beginning to think that I’m just not cut out to be a manager. I’m all for supporting staff and providing feedback on work, but dealing with these kinds of personality traits are not my bucket.

        1. valentine*

          It’s behavior, not personality.

          Have them check off the completed steps and, if possible, write down the time of completion. You’ll be able to say, “A shopping trip is 15 minutes on a good day with the elevators working and you the only customer. How were you able to be at your desk with the flowers a mere two minutes after updating the database?”

          I hope you’ve said to them what you wrote in your OP and you can add that it’s down to them to take your written instructions and convert them however they need into properly completed work, or would they like to move on to a job they can excel in.

  75. Reply-all-pocalypse*

    You guys…we may be at the beginning of a reply-all-pocalypse at my company. Someone sends out a “test do not reply email” this morning, which then creates a ticket in some system.

    Now people are replying-all to the original email and the ticket email.

    No, I have no idea how I got on an “all staff” email list for a business unit divested last year or how someone would be able to send a test email to an all staff list, but I’ve done the grownup thing and setup a filter to sender. We’re only up to 13 emails so far, but my coworker has had 60, and there are other signs the email servers are lagging, so it could be a long day.

    We had a reply-all-pocalypse a few years ago, to the tune of 23 million emails that made national news, so you think people would have learned by now.

    1. Pink Shoelaces*

      Ha ha, that happened in my industry a few months back. Not to the tune of 23 million emails, but hundreds. Someone accidentally copied a state wide listserv on their email about a project they were working on. For almost a week people kept replying-all with “I’m not involved in this project, please remove me from the list” and “everyone, clearly this was a mistake, stop replying-all to it” and then people replying all to keep it going just to be funny.

    2. Natalie*

      If you use Outlook, the Ignore button is your friend – it will send everything in the thread to the trash automagically. (It won’t delete it, so at the end of the day you can skim through and make sure you didn’t miss anything critical)

    3. just a random teacher*

      I am always amazed that anyone working someplace with more than about 10 people even has an an all-staff email list that lets anyone send stuff to it rather than a highly restricted senders list with everyone else begin sent to moderation. (We have one too, and I have never yet seen it used for anything appropriate by anyone outside of the district office, just the occasional reply-all-storm when someone sends a “cookies in the breakroom”/”does anyone know whose sweater this is”/”remember that Timmy is not to be wandering the halls per his behavior plan” type message to everyone in the district rather than everyone in their building, so I don’t see why the rest of us can even send to it without moderation. Until they patched a hole earlier this year, we also had an all-users list that students could, if they were mildly clever in finding workarounds, use to send an email to everyone in the district with an email address, including students, teachers, office staff, etc. That was a fun day. Press releases were involved.)

      Why do these lists get set up to start with? I understood why this happened back in the 90s while we still figuring email out, but it just feels like something that everyone should know not to do now.

  76. curly sue*

    Reading the discussion upthread about cc etiquette got me wondering. I do some freelance work, and have one contact point at that company. Every once in a while, my contact’s emails to me will come in cced to someone else with the company’s domain name. (Not the same person every time). Sometimes I recognize the name and know their role on the project, but sometimes there’s no explanation. The email content is always only addressed to me.

    (They’re “here’s a new project,” mostly. The one other name I recognize is an in-house colleague responsible for other parts of those projects.)

    When I reply to the unexplained ones, should I be hitting reply-all every time, or just reply directly to my contact and let them sort out any forwarding that might be needed?

    1. 867-5309*

      I usually reply-all of someone is copied on a question to me because the initial sender clearly wanted them to know what was going on.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah, if I don’t want you to reply to that other person, I’ll put that other person on bcc not cc

        1. curly sue*

          Of course — that makes sense. I use bcc so rarely that I never remember that it’s an option. I tend to overthink things like this and get tangled up in worrying if I’m accidentally annoying someone. It’s harder to gauge sometimes when everything is remote and text-based.

          1. valentine*

            Why not ask who it is? I’d reply, not all, so I’m not unknowingly distributing something I shouldn’t.

            1. curly sue*

              It would probably delay things too long, to be honest. My contact is usually incredibly swamped and I rarely get email replies that aren’t 100% necessary. It would make a deadline mess if I had to wait three days to find out whether to hit reply-all or not.

              And that was my concern — should I be sending the files back to everyone, or is it a privacy breach / unnecessary clogging of inboxes. But if they’re being copied on the *outgoing* project files, then it’s not super-likely that they wouldn’t be allowed to see my reports and the processed ones I’m returning. Right? (I am not dealing with anything that would be considered personal or confidential – no financial data, no health information, etc. It’s intellectual property.)

  77. Darla from Maine*

    My recruiter completely erased a 6month internship experience on my resume. Making matters worse, my reference is from the internship that she erased. I think what really annoyed me is that she didn’t notify me of this change. I’m glad I caught it before the interview but by the time I noticed it, I couldn’t edit it in and was upset I could not discuss the erased experience in my interview.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Of course you can discuss that experience in the interview! It doesn’t have to be on the resume for you to be able to bring it up.

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          Hey now. If we listen to every moistened bint just because they’re throwing common sense and good advice at us, where would we be?

          1. LadyByTheLake*

            Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony

    2. ..Kat..*

      Keep your own copy of your resume and bring it to any future interviews. But I agree with Lady by the Lake, you could have still spoke about the internship.

  78. I need an office*

    Has anyone had success negotiating their way from working in an open office to getting their own? I am going to push hard for this in my review on Monday. I’d love any tips/strategies!

    Background: There are offices open on a different floor than where I work, my current space is in a super noisy area and it’s affecting my ability to concentrate on work. I’m a senior manager and only directors have their own offices, but I am the only senior manager who also does director-level work. Promotion is off the table this year (which is SUPER frustrating but it’s a political thing that I have no control over), and I am very NOT productive in my current workspace… but I don’t necessarily want to talk about how much time I waste on the internet because I can’t concentrate on work.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Two thoughts from people I know.
      If you work with confidential information, that helps. People here get offices if they have direct reports to get privacy for performance reviews & giving employee feedback. Anyone with finance/payroll responsibility gets privacy so screens aren’t visible to passersby.
      Are you ADD? I know someone who’s resisting asking to be evaluated for ADHD who got moved into a (tiny) office after his new boss spotted the difference in his focus when their technical discussion started in the boss’s office but moved to employee’s desk in an open area with three separate conversations going on.
      Do feel free to talk about distractability — you don’t have to talk about the internet, just about losing your train of thought.

      1. cactus lady*

        I am not ADD/ADHD (at least, not any more than the average American since the inception of smartphones), I just need a quiet environment to concentrate. My boss’s previous response to this was to order me headphones, which don’t help – I need quiet, not other noise. I’ve taken to booking our conference rooms for hours at a time to be able to have uninterrupted work time.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If you can document issues of noise and distraction, especially your role includes lots of talking to Important People on the phone, then I’d just lay out all of the issues, and talk about how the noise and distraction are impacting the work. (And is the noise from other humans doing a good-enough job of keeping their voices down? Or is it loud copy machines? Or being near reception or a busy elevator bank? I think those could make a difference on how the conversation goes.)

      Then say, “What do you think, Boss? Is there another place I could work from that would solve this problem?”

      If it’s really the quiet that you’re after, you will probably use less social capital by focusing on the issue at hand than if you go in there claiming an office for status reasons. Though you can lean hard on the Important Nature of your Director Level work.

      1. cactus lady*

        I’m seated near a really loud team that has to interact as part of doing their work – I don’t have a team myself and their work has nothing to do with mine so it’s very distracting to have to listen to people constantly talk about projects I’m not involved in.

  79. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Offices & other public spaces need to bring back phone booths for cell phone use!
    My new desk backs up onto a lobby-like area and some days I have to go around the wall a half dozen times to let people know voices carry in this area. Most of the time it’s someone on a cell phone just not realizing that they’re shouting into their bluetooth headset. One guy’s been loud more than once…he’s the one who needs a phone booth.
    Because someone will ask… headphones can be problematic. When I play music on my Skype headset, Windows helpfully changes the ringer to only play through my headset, so I miss calls if I take off my headset. When I play music on my cellphone earpieces I have to switch headsets for every call. And some of these people are loud enough that I hear their conversations anyway, because I can’t play music loud enough to drown them out. I’m at the point where I’m thinking about hearing-protection earmuffs with bluetooth phone capability… but there are very few over-ear gadgets I’ve found that don’t compress my ears. My hat size is silly large.
    Hmmm…anyone else with a big head and Bing Crosby ears have a brand that has worked for them? I’m sure they must exist, because I can keep my yardwork earmuffs on for several hours.

  80. Pink Shoelaces*

    I’m putting Corporate America on blast. My husband has had 6 interviews this week with two separate companies and each one has at least one more interview to go.

    How many people need to talk to him for them to make a decision???? Just decide already!

    (This is mostly just a jesting rant made in good fun. But also it’s pretty frustrating.)

    1. Jadelyn*

      How senior are the roles he’s interviewing for? The higher up you go, the more people you need to talk to, although more than 3 rounds is a bit excessive.

  81. ironflan*

    My coworker is quitting as a result of our manager constantly assigning blame to her instead of the dude who seems incapable of doing tasks on time. She’s the third in a row that lasted a few years and then left. Manager seems to be under the impression that the assistant is supposed to “manage” this guy (who has somehow lasted at the company over a decade). I now find myself in her sights as a possible temporary replacement and I need language to explain how I’m turning down this opportunity (again!).

    1. LCL*

      Your language seems pretty clear. Just clean it up a little so you aren’t explicitly throwing shade at the people whose fault this is.
      ‘The last 3 people left because the job doesn’t have enough authority to fulfill the expectations of the job. All of the workers that left had issues with work by other people not getting finished on time. I would only take this job if I could make the following changes.’
      Or you could be more blunt. ‘Will I be responsible for enforcing production from other employees? Then, no, I don’t want this opportunity.’

    2. Temperance*

      So, you get paid less, and get less responsibility, to make sure this clown does his job, and it’s your fault when he doesn’t? That sounds like a wonderful job.

      1. ironflan*

        YUP. Sad thing is, without this guy involved, it’s actually a pretty sweet gig for someone in our industry. But there’s no way I want to deal with this dude.

        1. E*

          “Nothing has changed about the job since the last time it was open, so I’m not interested.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “I hate to point this out, but the last time you asked I said no and that remains my answer.”
      OR
      “No, sorry, still not interested.”

      This makes her ask why.
      Then you can state, “Three people have not been able to manage Dude, I have no reason to believe I will make out better than they did. I cannot take a job where I do not believe I will succeed.”

  82. pitterpatter*

    How do you function at work after tragedies? And how do you explain it without seeming like you’re fishing for sympathy.
    In the last 6 months, 2 of my friends have died sudden, tragic deaths (both young, very violent, one an accident and one a murder). Additionally, a friend’s spouse committed suicide in a graphic way, and livestreamed it (I didn’t see the stream but I know about what happened). I’m working with my therapist on getting my anxiety/panic down, but boy oh boy am I having trouble concentrating at work.
    Since none of these people was someone SUPER close to me (one of the people who died this month was an ex-coworker, the one who died 5 months ago was an ex-neighbor, so not family, but both people I saw with some frequency for several years), I feel strange going to my manager and saying “I’m having trouble concentrating because I keep imagining my friends’ deaths!”
    I also started here less than 6 months ago, so I don’t have a ton of leave/capital to use here, plus my work is highly specialized and our team is set up so it would be tough to hand off my projects.
    I’m just at a loss here and I don’t know where to turn. Everything I say feels like an excuse.
    Thanks in advance for reading.

    1. Temperance*

      Does your work have an EAP? This is the type of situation that EAPs are helpful for. Is your therapist helping you work on focus?

      1. pitterpatter*

        As far as I know, yes–but I have a strong relationship with my therapist already so am unsure how to approach an EAP? My therapist is helping me primarily with the constant panic attacks/compulsive thoughts, and my focus is kind of secondary (only because the constant graphic mental images are the root cause of that!)

    2. Marie*

      I’m so sorry for all that you are going through. Grieving can be so consuming, sometimes we don’t even realize it.

      I had to have a similar talk with my boss yesterday about some tragedy in my family. I stated to him that I was distracted, I acknowledge that I’m distracted, it’s out of my norm, and I wanted him to know that I know about it. I thanked him for being understanding while I work through it.

      I don’t know if the conversation changed much in my work or my attention, but it allowed me to get on the same page with my boss. Now, when I find myself staring off into space, or needing to go for a walk to clear my head, I can do so without kicking myself for needed it. I can take the time I need and then get back to work.

      Hopefully, this will help you as well. People are only human, even your boss and co-workers know that. And hang in there, you’re going through some HARD stuff. Time will help, be gentle with yourself.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m so sorry. I’ve had to work through grief as well — the whys are unimportant. What IS important is to make sure your manager knows that you’re working through grief. You said you have a therapist — ask them to help you practice scripts. You can keep it as simple as “I want to let you know that I had several people in my social circle die tragically since I started work here, and I’m having some trouble concentrating as a result. If I reach that point at home, I [***]. Is that OK for me to do here?”
      *All of us it will be different…for me when mom died, I rebooted my brain by getting outside for 2 minutes. My manager knew I’d be “breaking up my breaks”.
      I also suggest you write down more than you might usually, because grief can mess with our short-term memory. And you’re already in a new job which can be overwhelming in and of itself.
      Good luck – hang in there!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you think you want to say something to your boss, I would go with, “I am working through some losses and dealing with shock and grief. I know I am not my usual self but I am working on getting back on track.”

      The pattern is “I have problem X and I am doing Y to get myself to a better spot.”

      Do be prepared for the boss to say, “Is there any way I can help you?” Have your answer ready. This could be that you would like to leave on Fridays on time instead of working later like you usually do. Or it could be that you just prefer to be a little quieter and not have people make running commentary on that.
      You may want to consider asking if you can leave a few hours early one day each week for a few weeks, just to give yourself breathing room. Sometimes little tweaks like this can be hugely meaningful. You know you best so you know what would feel good/supportive.

      I am sorry for your losses. That can be very disconcerting. I know I went through a series of losses and one day while I was passing through the living room I notice the floor was moving. My second thought was, NO, the floor is not moving, the floor is fine, it’s something inside me losing my sense of balance. Be gentle with you, give yourself down time frequently. You are right, losses in a row like this are a bfd. You might benefit from reading some books on grief. Your library should have a good selection to chose from.

      1. pitterpatter*

        This has been so incredibly helpful–all of you, but this comment in particular. The way I’ve described it to friends is that I feel like my brain is melting. It IS disconcerting, not just sad, and I think that’s why I’ve struggled soooo much. Thank you thank you for your kindness here and for being so compassionate.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      I am very, very sorry you are going through this. Jedi Hugs – if you want them.

  83. anna green*

    Okay, so I’m getting quite frustrated and I could use some advice. I spent 5 unhappy years at my last job managing up. My boss was a perfectly nice person, but was a brand new manager who was obviously promoted past his ability, and had no idea what he was doing. I gave him so much credit he didn’t deserve “he’s trying his best, he’s new at this, etc.”. My career basically stalled out during that time because he was so busy trying to keep himself afloat there was no time (or ability) to manage his staff. After realizing I was never going to get the promotion he had been promising I finally left. So I’ve got some professional baggage at this point.

    My new company was awesome. My boss was smart, experienced, and knowledgeable, and I was learning so much. Then, after 1 year, he moved on. A new boss was promoted in, and now I am in the same. exact. situation. He is in over his head, first time manager, perfectly nice guy, etc. No. This is NOT fair! Why do I have to do this again? When is it my turn? I feel like I can’t advance in my own career because I have had bosses who don’t understand what it means to foster professional development in their employees or even recognize good work.

    I’ve mostly learned to handle things myself, but I am just so tired. I’ve had 6 managers in my career and this is the 3rd time I’ve been in this situation. I could reasonably leave if I found something else, but at this point, why should I believe it would be any better elsewhere?

    How do I let this go and continue to excel at my job? I am just so angry all the time. I know its probably seeping through, so I need to handle myself better. I need to just buckle down and work on the things I can to keep improving my resume. I know that. But I am having trouble doing that. Can anyone relate? Any tips?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      OH this sucks so much!!! Are there development opportunities at your company- any kind of training programs, Skillsoft, an LMS that offers anything… something? Does your field have a professional organization you can join for lunch and learns and webinars, and networking? Is there a conference you could ask to attend? Is there a training budget you could ask to pay for something?
      Some managers suck, and they do not know how or don’t care about developing employees– and so we have to take it on ourselves.
      If you do decide to job hunt the questions you want to ask during your interview is about what training they offer employees and managers. Do they have a training department, do they develop their employees? As about performance metrics- you are wanting them to tell you about leadership competencies. If a company does not have manager training, if they do not have competencies and can’t talk about performance metrics you will continue to run into the same issue. (and even if they do- there is still a chance of it happening)
      I am in a situation right now where my boss is qualified to be at her level, but not to head my area- she knows nothing about what I and my team do, she is also a “check the box” person, and she would throw me under the bus in a heartbeat if I wasn’t so good at covering my assets. I go in spurts where I get so down I sort of throws my hands in the air and checkout, and then I remind myself I am passionate about what I do- so I start attending lunch and learns or webinars with my professional org, I submit to speak at conferences, I’ll write a blog post for Linkedin. Something outside of HER and my messed up company. Those things are for me, and my sanity, and benefit me, and benefit people who are interested in my level of expertise.

  84. Chuck*

    More of a school question, but–any tips on connecting with classmates/professors when you’re in an online grad program?

    I’m working full-time and about to start a graduate program (different field from my current job). Because I need to take classes outside “traditional” hours, even though I live in the same city as my school, I’m doing the online program. However, I’d like to be able to connect with classmates and professors in real life, so to speak–especially since I’m hoping to move to full-time/traditional student status after a year or two. Does anyone have tips for managing that?

    Thanks!

    1. just a random teacher*

      Find out if there’s anything preventing you, as an online student, from attending in-person campus events that happen to be during hours you can attend. If the online program is part of a department that also has on-campus grad programs, there may be evening activities such as a lecture series or weekend social mixers such as a departmental barbecue open to grad students. Go to those when you can, and ask if you can be added to the same social mailing lists and such as on-campus grad students in that department would be. If it’s a school with a major online presence, there will also be online opportunities to connect – this is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask about during the admissions process.

      If you’re planning to switch to on-campus a few years in, you should also research in advance how separated their onsite and on-campus grad programs in your specific planned degree are to make sure this school and program are a good fit for switching partway that. Some schools have online grad programs that are basically independent of their on-campus programs, with separate admission processes and everything. Others keep everything integrated, and it’s normal for students in the same program to be taking different mixes of on-campus and online classes.

    2. The Rat- Catcher*

      I attend a class the semesters I can. I go and meet my professors and chat. These two things have helped immensely. Also, if the department has a social media presence, that can be another way to stay involved.

  85. The Curator*

    My big win. I forgot to mention that Open Access means free. Therefore for the first time the University Press has partnered with the library press. The physical book retails for $40.00. The e-edition is free to students, teachers and anyone who wants a digital download.

  86. General Organa*

    Hi! Anyone have good Outlook tips for keeping emails organized? I’ve been trying to stay on top of mine but so many emails come through a day (I’m a lawyer) that stuff just ends up sitting in my inbox. Luckily the search tool is powerful enough that I haven’t had huge issues, but I want to be better!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t use Outlook any more, but I have at past jobs. The way I did it was I had my inbox, and then I had a “done” folder. When an email came in, if I could deal with it right away, I’d put it in my done folder. If I couldn’t, I’d leave it in my inbox. So my inbox was basically like my “to-do” folder. I don’t know if that system could work for you or not.

    2. ten ton trucks*

      Rules rules rules rules rules. Are you on listservs? Send them to a folder. Does someone always send your entire office various e-mails that you need to read eventually but not yet? Send them to a folder. Get everything pre-sorted for you and then your inbox only has things you need to be there.

      Also, flagging for follow up saves my life.

    3. CTT*

      Lawyer here, and this may be what you’re already doing, but create folders for every single matter and subfolders if you need them (like “Bank Loan” with “title” and “loan documents” underneath it), for firm financial stuff, for pro bono; just categorize everything and put emails into those folders as soon as they arrive. That may not help you keep totally on top of it since you do have to deal with the email once it’s been categorized, but it does make searching easier if you’re looking for an email from someone named Mary, that way when you search, you’re only getting the Mary from that deal and not Every Mary Who Emailed You Ever. (I say this as someone who recently watched someone with a 5k inbox try to search for a deal-specific Mary and have 600 emails come up.)

        1. ten ton trucks*

          Everything I send goes to my inbox and then gets moved into folders, that way I don’t ever lose track of a conversation, I’ve got my side of it, too. It keeps unanswered requests from vanishing.

    4. Sydney Ellen Wade*

      I use sub-folders (and sub-folders within sub-folders) to organize them into categories. I also flag emails with important information I know I’ll continually refer back to in the future.

    5. LQ*

      To do flagging and then working out of the Task inbox. You can make your task view look just like your inbox. So I flag it when it comes in, I try to do a quick triage a few times a day and then just work out of the Task View.

    6. The Rain In Spain*

      I tried to use the subfolder method but outlook is configured strangely here and doesn’t actually move the emails OUT of my inbox…. so I resort to flags. I flag emails I need to respond to (with different time frames based on urgency) and I also block my calendar to address items, eg new equipment lease or new service contract and drag & drop the email into my calendar event. That way it’s easy to follow up on it all and as I do things I can either mark them as complete, or I just update the title (equipment lease- waiting for feedback from a as of 3/29) and that has been very helpful!

    7. Jadelyn*

      Folder, folder, folder! Subfolders. Whole folder trees. My tree can get 4 or 5 deep sometimes – “Lifecycle/Merits/Increases/2018” for example – plus I keep a special folder for conversations with my manager and an “ACTIVE PENDING” folder that’s pinned at the top of my sidebar. If there’s something that needs done still, it goes in that folder. Otherwise, it immediately gets foldered/subfoldered where it belongs.

    8. Rick Tq*

      All of the above, with some added training on addressing. I’ve trained my co-workers that cc’d messages are information only to me, not action items. I still review my CC’d message box regularly but my Inbox has first priority.

      I also use rules to file a range of process emails for our sales system and messages from a few specific senders (Mr WallOfWords, Director RahRahRah, etc.)

      Specific things I’m working on are copied to “- Pending” so they are all in one place, then I have a “Done” button that moves the message to a different folder.

    9. wandering_beagle*

      What everybody said about folders, plus the “Clean Up Conversation” / “Clean Up Folder” buttons to get rid of all of the individual email replies so it’s the entire email chain in one thread.

    10. LGC*

      I’m all about rules. I don’t get a huge number of emails, but I have folders for document requests, employee issues, that sort of thing. And since my coworkers love doing reply all chains, I have a dump folder for when those get out of hand.

      The other thing I have set up is…I have my Outlook client set to display by conversations instead of by message. (So a reply chain will just show as one thing instead of by God knows how many messages.) This makes message threads easier to manage.

    11. Amethystmoon*

      I use folders a lot. I also use the priorities a lot, and create custom ones which help me determine at a glance where something is in the workflow, or if it needs more information, etc. I also save my e-mails in folders on my hard drive at the end of the month, since our IT is set up to delete our Outlook e-mails automatically every so often.

  87. It’s me*

    I posted in January (ish) about working insane hours in private accounting after leaving public for that reason. Just wanted to say I asked my boss about a raise and was given what I wanted, which is generous. The hours have also decreased. It will be a busy year with some internal changes, but I’m glad. Thank you to the commenter who suggested I ask for a raise and to Allison, who’s many guides and posts pumped me up to get the guts to ask. It really was that simple

  88. Marie*

    How do I assert myself to give critical feedback to a jr team member, or tell them they need to let me review something before sending it to the higher ups?

    Example, when a client closes a deal with a supplier, we send letters to the rest of the suppliers letting them know they did not receive the business. These letters have a meticulously perfect standard (above our normal professional communication standard). How do I insist to my jr team member that these letters must be checked by me (sometimes multiple times) before being sent to the manager for approval? I have no authority over her as we are both team members, and therefore it feels awkward for me to be demanding of her actions.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      1) Drag your boss into the loop. Ask your boss to tell Junior person that all letters must be reviewed by you before they are sent out. And the review must be done each time there is a revision.

      2) Get buy-in from the Junior person. “This company is really strict about what goes out of here. We need to be absolutely perfect each time every time. So each time there is a revision your best bet is to bring it to me and let me go over it. We have to do this because the company really wants us to be on top of everything, so that means we have to use a second set of eyes.” Then tell a story about what happened to someone who did not do this.

      3) Look for ways to standardize your letters. Perhaps you can create a letter that can be used and reused. This does not work all the time. But let’s say you send out ten different letters. If you can standardize two of them that would cut your review time down because you’d look at it once AND it would give the Junior employee a shot at getting something right. I use a lot of standardized letters in my work. Sometimes I have to delete one sentence or put in another sentence, but over all everyone gets the same message in the same manner. (I am shaking my head because most of the time people call me up and ask, “What does this letter mean?”. So there is that down side, also.)

  89. LQ*

    Impostor or Impostor Syndrome?
    I’ve been moved (technically laterally) into a new role. But it’s not formal, no org chart change. I got an office and all the OT I can use (which is a lot). I run a couple of multimillion dollar projects (this may not be a big deal elsewhere but it’s basically unheard of here). I don’t have any staff reporting to me but I have 4-7 consultants depending on how you count them and 3 folks from other departments who all look to me for work assignments/direction/etc. I couldn’t fire the other staff but I could/have “fired” consultants/changed program direction away from their work.

    The old job I had has been half divided up to 3 different people and half replaced by 2 new hires (replacing part of my role and part of the role of someone else who just retired). Both of the new people have masters degrees in the thing I was doing. I don’t even have any degree in it and I didn’t have any experience in it before I picked it up. I don’t technically have any experience (other than the year I’ve been doing it) in the work I’m doing now. I don’t get constantly head hunted on Linked In. My work has never been in what my degree is.

    I don’t think I’m qualified for the job I have, on paper I’m certainly not (I think I’m doing well, I’ve gotten more accomplished in the last 6 months we’ve really been digging in on this work than they did in the last 12 years) and don’t think I’m qualified for the job I used to have. And I’m having a sort of “Am I Even Hirable” existential crisis right now.
    Does everyone have master degrees? These are not Fancy Really Well Paying jobs, these are ok government jobs. There’s sort of a “no one here could get work in the private sector” thing, but I don’t think everyone in the private sector is entirely on pointe all the time but maybe I couldn’t. Maybe I really am an impostor in the work. How can you tell?

    1. Rick Tq*

      Qualifications are a filter when the applicant doesn’t have experience. It sounds like you have been performing quite well both in your old job and new. Not an Imposter by any means.

      I wouldn’t stress over not working in your degree field, your track record speaks for itself.

    2. Enough*

      To me an imposter wouldn’t be able to do the work and certainly not at a level that would require multiple people to replace them. Regarding the lack of degree. It’s not uncommon to have an employee who has worked their way up and proven themselves that don’t have the “qualifications” the company now looks for in an employee. Have a friend from college who worked himself up from college bookstore employee to being responsible for all the college bookstores. His degree is from the now former College of Home Economics.

    3. Ptarmigan*

      Chill out. The private sector is like 60% nincompoops. Nothing you’ve said here indicates that you’re unqualified or an impostor.

  90. lilipoune*

    I have just accepted a new job and I would like to know how you usually handle the transition. My current job is with customer facing (I am an account manager/sales rep) and my manager has the habits of saying that we should not inform our customers that we are leaving, so we just disapear. He says that it is better for business because it could affraid our customers to hear that their main contact person is leaving and that they could go to competition. In general, we do quite customer intimacy relationship/sales. I have seen people doing both in the past, emailing their customers in his back, because we are not willing to give a bad impression since we might meet them again in another context and some people following the request and not emailing anyone. What would you do?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      While I strongly disagree with your boss (if people suddenly disappear that is alarming to most people), I think you probably have to do what the boss says. Once you are in the new place and you see these people, you can just apologize for not saying good-bye, but you figured you see them around anyway and would talk to them at some point.
      I think it’s one of those things where you will have to be kind of vague as to why you did not say good bye. But you can cover that by saying,”Oh I am so happy to see you, blah, blah, blah…”

    2. ten ton trucks*

      I’m not in sales, but in that situation, yeah, I’d probably tell the customers. How I handled my transition last time is I set an out of office on my account before I left that had a generic “it was great working with you for these last few years! here’s who is taking over for me! have a great day!”

      1. ..Kat..*

        I think your wording is great. You are saying goodbye, thanks for working with me, and who will be taking care of the client in the future. To do it the way the boss wants, if I were a client, I would not feel valued as a client. I would feel like I was just dropped by my contact.

  91. Not So NewReader*

    Anyone working with taxes?
    My friend got a letter saying that he failed to take an earned income credit.
    I have never heard of the IRS telling people they did not take enough deductions. Is this legit or a scam?
    I have not gotten to see his paperwork yet so I have not been able to google further info. I have never heard of the IRS doing this, so an alarm went off in my head. Is this worth looking into or is my friend being scammed?

    2. Enough*

      Yes, the IRS will do this. In fact you have the option when you file to allow them to do the calculations for you. This can work for fairly simple returns.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Thank you, ten and Enough. And when I relay this to my friend he will be thanking you also!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Follow up: I used the link, and your (both of you) reassurance and we got my friend’s form filled out and into the mail. He sends his thanks.

    4. Onyx*

      Yes, this is real! When I filed my very first tax return with paper and pen, I apparently didn’t do enough deductions so the IRS actually sent me a check with a letter saying I overpaid my taxes. After that, I started using HR Block’s online system.

  92. Crocheted familiar*

    How on earth do you get a job when you’re Disabled, trans, and queer, and you can’t hide any of that because then your CV would be totally empty except for one thing several years ago? Much as I would hope that none of these things would get me discriminated against, I know for a fact that people do, even though it’s illegal. My problem is that my experience has pretty much only been on student group committees and they’re all things like ‘Trans rep on the LGBTQ students’ group committee’ in which I also worked with the university’s upper management on trans guidelines or ‘Women and non-binary rep on the Disabled students’ group or ‘Disabled Officer’ on the committee of the LGBT+ students’ group or other positions where it’s really obvious I’m a member of many minority groups. I’m also worried that this heavy involvement in student politics and LGBTQ and disability rights makes me look like I’ll be a difficult employee who’s more focussed on activism than my job. I’ve been applying for jobs related to my Master’s, but the only job I’ve had an interview for was at an LGBT charity, where they thought I interviewed pretty well but I didn’t get the job because other people were stronger (and I could tell they were stronger too). Does anyone have any advice or suggestions on what to do? I think I’d be pretty good if I got to an interview, but I’m not getting interviews.

    1. Temperance*

      Do you have to disclose? Instead of labeling yourself as the “trans rep” or the “women and NB rep”, can you call yourself an Executive Board member responsible for X, Y, and Z? I would absolutely keep the student politics stuff on there.

      Do you have any internships/past work experience unrelated to your board memberships? And, sadly … it’s extremely legal to discriminate against queer folks in many US jurisdictions.

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        Unfortunately I don’t have any other experience other than that one other thing several years ago which is really more of a hobby than anything. It’s definitely related to my Master’s, but it’s not the kind of thing that’ll hold up a CV on its own. Student politics is pretty much my only experience. I don’t think I can not say what the role titles or groups were either, because I’ll risk them looking like they were all one thing and I wouldn’t be able to talk about my achievements in those roles if I had to keep them vague on my CV. I think I’d risk looking like I was inflating or lying. Even if I said I was a committee member on three committees, responsible for A, B, and C, those responsibilities will be things like those guidelines or other, specific-to-representing-marginalised-groups things. I’m in the UK, so the Equality Act 2010 makes discrimination illegal on all of them, but that doesn’t mean people won’t and don’t discriminate, and the constant wondering if I didn’t get an interview because I’m LGBTQ+ or Disabled is so frustrating, especially because I know it’s quite likely.

        1. valentine*

          You’re demanding a courtroom-level of disclosure here. Reduce the titles to rep/officer. And they’re unlikely to check the membership rules, so they may assume the groups are open to all/allies are allowed.

    2. It’sJess*

      How about jobs that would be consider those activist activities as a student relevant experience? I’m in higher ed, so I’m thinking things like program coordinator for a campus LGBT Center, a position in an Office of Diversity and Inclusion, or accommodation advocate type position

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        I would LOVE to do those types of roles but I’m having such a hard time finding them! I’m looking at LGBT charity websites and looking for equality and diversity roles, but they’re usually all much higher level than I am (like regional co-ordinators) or they state that they’re ‘committed to equality and diversity’ in the job description but have absolutely nothing to do with those things for the actual role, which makes filtering and searching for those specific things really difficult. I hadn’t heard of accommodation advocacy, but I’ll start adding that into my searches too and maybe something will turn up there.

      2. Minerva McGonagall*

        If you haven’t already checked, higheredjobs dot com is a great resource for finding roles like the ones you’re interested in-you can filter by region or area of interest

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First and foremost, I hope you’re not in God awful Texas where they passed legislation to allow for discrimination based on LGBTQ status. There are plenty of nasty little holes out there that still don’t consider sexuality/identity a protected class, discrimination is flourishing wildly there.

      You need to throw your hat in the ring everywhere and go fishing, without just assuming everyone is going to discriminate! There are plenty of awesome places that are forward thinking and progressive who wouldn’t flinch at knowing full well who you are right up front.

      Look at it this way, there are racists out there that pre-screen out minorities as well, think about the studies about names that give away your ethnicity etc. They still get jobs one way or another. It’s gross and not correct that it’s more of a struggle but it is not impossible.

      It sounds like you’re not getting interviews more because you have limited experience, which is hurting you more than the programs you’re involved in. This is the hardest thing when you’re trying to get out of school and into work, so please please please try to come from it as a person who is struggling for that reason with the knowledge that you also have that extra bigotry issue on your back as well but it’s not the first and foremost issue at hand.

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        I’m in the UK so thankfully I’m not in a place where it’s legal to discriminate against LGBTQ people. I really feel for those who are. For me, it’s less that I’m expecting people to discriminate and more that I hate that I end up wondering if that’s why I’m not getting interviews even though I know it’s not likely to be the reason in all cases.

        I agree with you that the lack of job experience is hurting me, and I think the lack of experience in general doesn’t help either. Due to my disabilities, I find searching for and finding jobs to apply to really difficult because I don’t really know what I’m looking for and I don’t learn by osmosis very well. No one really actively teaches you how to look for jobs so it’s just yet another stressful thing in an already stressful circumstance.

    4. Clodagh*

      I would look for entry level jobs with the Council or its arms-length organisations. Vacancies don’t come up as much as they used to but they tend, in my experience, to be more genuine in their drive to employ queer/trans/disabled people. If you can get a foot in the door there are usually more jobs that are for internal candidates only, giving you the chance to move to a role more aligned with your qualifications/interests. I work in an arms-length organisation with a fairly high percentage (relatively speaking) of queer and disabled employees. The rates for trans employees are lower but nothing close to 0%. A lot of the entry level jobs tend to be customer-facing so you’re looking to emphasise skills relating to teamwork, dealing with difficult situations (aka straight out abuse) and communicating clearly with different types of people via various methods. They also like the feeling that you genuinely want to help people in whatever way the role might require. I suspect your committee work ticks a lot of boxes. Another approach is volunteering. There are an unfortunate number of posts that want you to work for free for months before they even consider hiring you. Wishing you lots of luck!

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        Councils aren’t such a good idea; I’ll have a look. I’ve been looking at my local one (they seem to mainly want teachers), but it’s probably a good idea to look at others too. Thanks for the rest of your comment too. The encouragement is much appreciated.

    5. Indie*

      I’m wondering if you can spin the titles a bit. Was any of this stuff for the student union? Or were you responsible for reporting issues to the university? Were you in any way involved in getting Freshers settled in, or advocating for students in university for things we all need, like accommodation or bathrooms or a voice? Maybe just call yourself a faculty student liaison, or student union advocate in charge of preparing agendas for regular meetings, who successfully organised events (or whatever; it’s more about what you did in the role than the identity of the role) until you can suss out when it’s safe to disclose more detail.

    6. Green Thumb*

      My resume is covered with blatantly political stuff, including work with survivors of sexual violence, incarcerated folks, immigrant populations, and the LGBTQ community.

      Personally, I tend to see this as a positive. If someone would discriminate against me because of any of the above, I probably don’t want to work there anyway!! Bullet dodged! (But of course, it’s ultimately up to you how and when you disclose, and if you think that tweaking your job titles might help get you to an interview, then go for it.)

      To make all this “political stuff” relevant to non-political work, I try to explicitly frame it in terms of skills learned and outcomes attained. Petition writing? You can “write copy that motivates people to take action.” Serving on a committee? You can “work with a diverse range of stakeholders.” I’ve learned a lot about social media and event planning from my “political stuff” as well.

      What has the LGBTQ student’s committee accomplished, and what role did you play in that/those accomplishment/s? Ditto for any and all other student political work you’ve done. Go over your resume and make sure you’re framing your student experiences in terms of accomplishments and your contributions.

      Finally, w/r/t “I don’t really know what I’m looking for,” I think that’s fairly common when you’re just out of school. What do you enjoy doing? Do you like talking to people and making connections with community groups, or do you prefer to do things like research policy and write reports? What’s been your favorite part of your past roles, and why?

      You might also try applying to positions with other political causes, since there’s a lot of cross over in terms of necessary skills. Case in point: I’ve gotten interviews with environmental advocacy groups, despite having zero experience with environmental activism, because it’s clear that I have a skillset (communications, event planning, workshop design, whatever) that would be valuable to them, and they could just catch me up on the environmental-specific stuff later on. (And I made it clear in my cover letter that I cared about environmentalism and would be motivated to learn.)

      It is really frustrating to be job searching and feel like you’re getting nowhere, and even harder when you feel like who you are and everything work-related you’ve ever done is playing against you. It’s perfectly valid to feel negatively about the situation, and I hope you’re able to take care of yourself in the meantime. Sending solidarity and good vibes from Canada!!

  93. Anon for this*

    I’d really appreciate some input from people in healthcare, especially behavioral healthcare.

    I work with kids with disabilities, doing in-home care. Some of my clients are still working on communication. I have a few male, teenage clients who are occasionally violent and have recently been sexually aggressive during sessions. When I’m alone with the client, it can be very frightening; they’re much larger than I am and I’m limited in what I can do to make them stop.

    I shared all of this information with my boss, who told me that taking me off the case would be discriminatory to these clients, because they respond well to me generally and switching to another practitioner would be failing to provide the best possible treatment for them. I talked briefly to a lawyer (not an employment lawyer) who said that since it’s reasonable to expect this sort of thing in my field, it’s probably legal for my employer to require me to stay on the case.

    I know there are risks in my profession, and I’ve never complained about the bruises and minor concussions that come with the job, but for me the groping and other forced sexual conduct is too much. Is this legal? If I insist on being taken off these cases, am I being unethical or unprofessional?

    1. Temperance*

      Okay, to start, does your organization have an HR department? Your boss is more concerned about keeping the parents of these clients happy.

      Sexual threats and assault are not reasonable expectations of any job. It’s worrisome that their behaviors seem to be escalating. If anything happens to you, you would have grounds for a lawsuit, but obviously you don’t want it to get to that point.

      I also find it INCREDIBLY alarming that you are regularly getting bruised and “minor concussions” from this job. That’s … not normal. Have you been reporting these, and getting regular medical care? Repeat concussions can have dire, lifelong consequences.

      1. Anon for this*

        I’m one of a handful of people in my company who sort of specialize in the more violent kids, because my voice, appearance and overall demeanor tend to have a calming effect. That also means I get a lot more punches, scratches, bites and kicks than most other workers just because I’m around those clients. Like I said, I accept that part, because the only way for these clients to learn to behave appropriately is for us to work with them when they aren’t. Somebody’s got to do it, and I’m willing.

        1. valentine*

          For the nonsexual assault, it’s possible your method is inappropriate and the clients are defending themselves. Still. I cannot overemphasize how appalling this is. It is outrageous for anyone to expect you to accept assault, especially sexual assault, of any kind, ever.

          Somebody’s got to do it, and I’m willing.
          Nobody has to do it. It’s entirely wrong, and criminal. I bet you’re not even allowed to wear a helmet, because that might hurt the feelings of the aggressor/perpetrator.

          I hope you’ll take all the leave you can and escape to a place where you can reset your ideas of propriety in the workplace.

    3. LCL*

      Your boss is full of it. And his argument for keeping you assigned doesn’t even work; if your clients are getting worse, obviously they need more help than you are capable of giving. That could mean you are lacking in specific training, or it could mean these clients require 2 persons to handle. Your lawyer didn’t have the best advice. If you want better advice contact your state’s Labor and Industry people and talk to them.

      1. Anon for this*

        Just to clarify, the clients’ overall aggressive behavior is declining in frequency; however, as they grow (and enter puberty) the behavior that does occur takes on a different nature.

        1. LCL*

          Looked at from the outside, adding a new kind of aggressive behavior isn’t an improvement. I’m not blaming you, it sounds like you are great at what you do. You have just run into clients that need more help than 1 person can give. And I’m not blaming the clients. The only person at fault is the manager for sticking his fingers in his ears and saying la la la while you, the person with the best knowledge of these situations, is asking for help.

    4. Psyche*

      Can you tell him that since they are being sexually aggressive (!!!) you can no longer be alone with them? You probably should talk to an employment lawyer, but I would think putting you in a situation that they know is potentially dangerous would make them liable if something should happen to you, which they would not want.

    5. Middle Manager*

      I don’t think you’re being unethical or unprofessional AT ALL. It’s totally unreasonable for your employer to expect you to accept sexual groping/sexual contact. Yes, people with BH needs including sexual aggressive, need services, but it’s not okay to jeopardize the health and safety of staff doing so. It sounds like these are clients who cannot be safely served 1-1, particularly by a staff member of the opposite gender. I would strongly advocate that their 1) their treatment plan be re-evaluated to address these behaviors with the possibility of needing 2-1 staffing or a higher level of care and/or 2) you be removed from cases where you are being sexually harassed. (context: I’m a senior level staff for a state mental health oversight agency- I would not accept this from a provider we oversee).

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you! This is the context I needed. My monthly meeting with the company owner is coming up and I’ll be discussing this with him next.

    6. Middle Manager*

      Context: I work for a state level mental health oversight agency.

      This is not okay. Yes, clients need to be served, including those with sexually aggressive behaviors. They also need to be served in a way that does not harm staff members. I would say that you are well within your rights to say that these individuals need treatment plan modifications for a higher level of care or 2-1 staffing (or whatever other modifications might be available in your state). And I don’t think it is at all unprofessional or unethical to say that you cannot serve them without a plan in place to keep you safe. No employer should require you to be sexually harassed and groped to do your job.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Sorry, my response wasn’t showing up and I thought I didn’t hit submit. Didn’t mean to say the same things twice.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Actually that needs to go the opposite way where only men are assigned to these clients.
      Additionally, no they are not responding well to you if they try to rape you. That is not “responding well”.

      Since your boss is a dud you should loop in other people. If they have a case worker you can start there and def check-in with HR. Be sure to say that you fear your well-being and perhaps your life is in danger.

      I spent a lot of years in human services and I saw a lot of this type of stupidity. The answer generally involves dragging in other cohorts from different departments or agencies in order to protect yourself. I had a boss tell me that if a client wanted to be covered in feces they had the right to be covered in feces. I went and found someone else to talk with.

      Keep in mind that when you do these things you will not be a popular person. Keep your chin up and walk tall. You are right and keep reminding yourself that you are right.

      But sadly, this crap is pretty normal for human services. For the moment line up informal support. This could look like having a understanding coworker on speed dial who is willing to drop everything and come get you on a moment’s notice. Have a plan to protect yourself.

    9. InternWrangler*

      If one of my staff reported this, and I did not feel like I could remove the staff person from the case, I would do a couple of things. First, I would look to see if I could have someone accompany you–do we have another staff person or a graduate level intern who could partner on the case. Is there a family member who could be present? Is there another professional, like a skills worker, who could be around? Often having another person present can help change the dynamics.
      I would also look at where the sessions are taking place–what safety mechanisms can be put into place? What room are the visits taking place in? Who else is around in the house? Is there a safety plan–does the team working with the youth know of these behaviors and have they made teaching appropriate boundaries part of the case plan? Can the work be moved to the office. I know in home is the preferred choice, but when home is not safe, is there a way to move the work to a more public setting: library, school, office?
      When I read groping and other forced sexual contact, I also need to state that staff’s safety comes first. If those measures did not increase your safety or did not make you feel safer, then the case needs to be reassigned. It sounds like you are really committed to your kids, and I want to celebrate and thank you for that. I hope those suggestions will help you. We don’t want you to burn out or be traumatized by the work.

    10. E*

      I think that either talking to an employment lawyer or finding out what government official/agency oversees your area of healthcare and talking to them might be appropriate. I understand that the behavior is partly a risk accepted in this field, but a concussion and groping could have been mitigated by having another person with you at these particular client appointments. Would your employer like to have their name splashed all over the news if something happened that injured you further? Especially when you’ve expressed your concern and they basically said it comes with the job.

    11. Anon for this*

      A little additional context: when I say the clients are responding well, that’s based entirely on quantitative data. For example, one client has gone from an average of 36 acts of aggression per session to an average of 4; he’s also gone from mastering about 4 life skills

      per semester to an average of 12. While I find these new behaviors more upsetting, the clients’ overall patterns of behavior have objectively improved. With time I believe the current treatment plans will probably eliminate the sexually aggressive behavior, but that will take a lot of time, and I’m not comfortable risking what might happen between now and then.

    12. ..Kat..*

      Your workplace should have a policy in place about how to deal with such clients and how to protect you. And, I hope you are reporting each instance of your getting hurt and following up with a healthcare provider using workers’ comp. And, all groping, etc should be reported in writing. You should be keeping records of all of this for yourself NOT AT WORK (dates, times, what happened, witnesses, whether you needed followup care for yourself). Of course, you will have to use initials so that you are not violating patient privacy.

      Your workplace should be protecting you. You would not be unethical or unprofessional if you ask to be taken off of these cases because you are not being protected. Your boss sucks. Do you have a professional association that you can ask about how to deal with this?

      I know that some places (I don’t know your exact profession, so I am inferring some here) that have people work in pairs. A care worker like you, and a safety attendant that is a second person in the room (sometimes something like a patient safety attendant, a certified nursing assistant, or whatever).

      For what it is worth, I am a nurse, I work in a pediatric ICU, and sometimes I deal with violent, inappropriate patients. I am a small female, most of my patients are larger than me.

    13. Indie*

      This is bullshit. When this is happening at special (or hell, regular) schools, the teacher or TA must not be alone with the student. They are (at the very least) paired up and the genders of caretakers are usually switched around. It’s really important for violent male teens to hear from the male allies of female staff that “this is not done, this is not what men do” which is why male TAs are so valuable in my field.

      You’re within a hair of either being assaulted or being the subject of a false complaint of abuse and where will your boss be then? Counting his shekels, that’s where.

  94. Peaches*

    I came here last week asking how to shut down my new coworker who kept asking to use my personal iPad for work (she kept telling me her work iPad “wasn’t working”, but wasn’t seeking help to get it fixed).

    I had been pretty forward with her already, telling her that it was my personal iPad, and suggesting who to contact to get it fixed, as well as giving my own suggestions for how to fix it.

    Anyway, she apparently still wasn’t getting the idea, and emailed me AGAIN a few days ago saying, “I’m probably going to use your iPad tomorrow for (outside of office work reason) since mine isn’t working still.” I was honestly so irritated that she was now TELLING me she was going to use my iPad, when I’d already shut her down so many times. So, I emailed her boss and told him the situation, and why I was frustrated that she continued asking to use my personal iPad. He told me he would talk to her, and after I left that afternoon, I received an email from the coworker that simply said, “Hey, did you talk to (boss) about my iPad!?!” I could tell she was mad, but I didn’t care at that point. I emailed her back in the morning and simply said “Yes, I did. As I’ve mentioned before, my iPad is for personal use, and I’m not comfortable lending it out for work reasons. I don’t bring it into the office much of the time because again, it isn’t for work purposes. It’s important that you get yours fixed since you’ll be using it for work often, and I thought (boss) would be able to help you since you have not been able to do that yourself.” She emailed back, “Okay…I wasn’t asking you to have to bring your iPad into the office. Sorry you misunderstood.”

    Although irked that she indicated I misunderstood, I let it go (although I seriously considered forwarded her many emails asking to use my iPad, highlighting the portion where she was asking to use my iPad).

    Anyway, just thought some of you may care for an update. Not sure the new coworker is going to work out…aside from this bizarre request, there have been some other red flags, and tiffs that she has gotten into with other coworkers. I suppose I will have to wait and see!

    1. Rebecca*

      So annoying! What part of “no” does this person not understand? I’d stop responding. And make sure you either keep your iPad with you or locked up and password protected if you do bring it in.

      1. Peaches*

        I have no idea! I couldn’t believe how many times she asked after already being told ‘no’. I did not respond to her last email, nor do I plan to if she contacts me again!

        1. ..Kat..*

          please keep all of your email correspondence with her as proof of her idiocy.

          Good for you for standing up for yourself and contacting her boss. Good for you for not letting her railroad you into giving her your personal iPad!

    2. Psyche*

      Sounds like she misunderstood. You weren’t objecting to bringing your iPad to work. You were objecting to her using it. And why would she NOT tell her boss that her work iPad wasn’t working?

      1. Peaches*

        That was the other bizarre thing! When I reached out to him, he said “this is the first time I’m hearing about it not working.” Pretty important thing to not loop your boss in on.

          1. Peaches*

            No, I’m not sure. She’s only had it for a couple of weeks, though, so she certainly should have it!

            1. valentine*

              I was thinking sold it.

              I’m glad you are free, Peaches. If she bothers you again in a way you need to respond to, cc her manager.

      3. Antilles*

        Yeah, I noted that too.
        Honestly, I might have responded to the email simply because of that first part, just to make sure the point was crystal clear – It’s not about “having to bring the iPad into the office”, it’s about the item being my personal property. The answer is no and will remain no, regardless if my iPad is on my desk, in my office, or 15 miles away on my kitchen counter.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Your post got my blood pressure up!!! She was too asking to use your personal IP, no, she was telling you she was going to use it. I can’t understand why she doesn’t get her work provided iPad fixed… ugggg. How frustrating for you, hopefully contacting her boss has resolved the issue.

  95. Savannah*

    How can I get over feeling resentful or irritated when a coworker gets assigned a cool project?

    I have a coworker who is three months into the job and hasn’t done much aside from sit on his phone for the duration. Meanwhile, I’ve worked hard and received challenging, fun projects as a reward. Some new projects came down the pike and my manager assigned them to the new coworker in an effort to get him to do SOMETHING. However, these are exciting projects that require skill and experience.

    How can I get over my resentment toward this coworker? How can I move on from my disappointment in my manager’s decision to give prime projects to the newest/least competent among us?

    1. Psyche*

      You mention that you have been receiving challenging and fun projects. Are the projects that you coworker got more appealing than the ones you have been getting? Take stock of overall workload and how many good projects you have received while he was passed over. You can’t really expect to get every good project, so if you have more “prime projects” than he does you are still doing really well.

    2. LQ*

      Does your boss know you think that is a prime project? Do you have offloadable work? Does your boss know? I think you can talk to your boss and make sure they know that you are interested in Exciting Project in the future. Not a I’m mad at/about coworker getting it. But an “I’d like to work on Exciting Project” next time one comes up.

  96. FaintlyMacabre*

    I started a new job as a llama teapot certifier for the state. I really wanted to be a llama tea blender for the state and applied several times for the job but never got it. This job is close to what I want to do- I’m not unhappy with it, but I’ll be working out of the tea blender office next week and know I’ll be running into some of the people I interviewed with. I’m slightly dreading it. I know if they remember me, a breezy “Yup, I’m working in teapot certification now” will suffice, but being passed over so many times for the job still rankles a bit and I don’t want it show.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      It’s a networking opportunity. You’ve met them while you interviewed, and presumably still could be a candidate the next time something comes up. Chat them up, ask them smart questions, and this time maybe they’ll start learning more about you and what you’d actually bring to their table next time.

      1. pcake*

        I’m with Aspiring Chicken Lady on this. Make the most of your opportunity to let them see what a great coworker you are and for you to learn more about what they’re looking for.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Let them know you eventually want to work in their office. This is your time to shine and show them how wonderful you are to work with!

  97. Average*

    Any advice for someone who’s just an average performer and also not motivated?

    I spent my high school and college years being a high achiever. When I started my first job out of college around six months ago, I realized that I just don’t care about being a top performer anymore. I don’t have the energy or the motivation to go above and beyond the requirements of my job. My work so far is good, but that’s all. Nothing stellar. I get the job done, the result is good, and that’s about the amount of effort I can afford to give. I just want to finish my work for the day then go home to do things I actually enjoy.

    Recently I’ve been thinking about what I’m going to do, career direction and stuff like that. Looking at the advice here, I’m definitely not a strong candidate. I haven’t accomplished anything notable at work, nothing that can be written in my resume that’ll make people invite me to interviews. At the same time, I’m really tired of all the pressure to excel.

    So, any advice? Or maybe job options that seems like they’ll fit?

    1. Argh!*

      If you apply for other jobs, try to find out how they establish pay raises. Sometimes it’s 100% merit-based or has performance metrics you have to meet. If there’s a cost-of-living or step increase, then you’re safe.

      The merit-based system I work on is extremely de-motivating because it’s based on your supervisor’s rating, and someone who is merely satisfactory gets no raise at all. Since they implemented that system a few years ago, the atmosphere has gotten toxic. I don’t have coworkers anymore. I have tattletales that I have to watch out for. Besides our salaries being merit-based, there’s a pool of money that gets divided up – the merit pay isn’t a set amount. If you can convince a coworker’s boss that they’re not up to snuff and the person doesn’t get a raise, that means more money for everybody. There’s no incentive for people to cooperate. I used to really like my coworkers, but now I view them as a bunch of vipers, and I’m starting to turn into one myself. Sadly, my boss is not psychologically or socially savvy, so that crap really works on her. I was the last person to twig to this, and the first person not to get a raise. I hate what’s happened to me. I miss my old self.

      1. Average*

        It sounds horrible, and I’m sorry you have to deal with that toxic atmosphere. And thank you for the advice! I didn’t know about different types of pay raises before, so I’m definitely going to look at that.

    2. Hmmm*

      All of the feelings you describe are incredibly normal. The vast majority of people show up to work, put in a good effort, and leave for the day to do what they enjoy after work. As an overachiever in school you may be finding it a little depressing to not receive consistent feedback like you did when you were receiving grades at the end of every assignment.

      As for your resume, even if you haven’t “accomplished anything notable”, you can still put numbers to what you do. E.g.: Process 100 ABC reports each month. Manage 50 outbound client calls per week. Are you the sole operator for anything? You can list that. Do you do anything that saves the company money? Success in the working world is very different and requires skills you develop over time. It is also going to take time to discover what your career is going to be. I am in a career I didn’t hear about until I had been working for almost a decade. Until then, I put my head down did good (not above and beyond) work and kept my eyes peeled for anything that looked a little more interesting.

      1. Average*

        Thank you! It’s reassuring to hear that this is normal. My current job is in administration, so most days I just work on the routine stuff and deal with whatever’s come up, then go home. I’m still not sure what career is it that I want, so I think I’ll just do what you did.

  98. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

    I posted about this story a few weeks ago in the non-work thread, but I feel like it treads the line between work and personal and there’s an aspect about it I feel is closer to the work side that I’m curious to hear thoughts on.

    There are these two YouTube content creators who I used to support on Patreon who made a public call out for fans to help them out with some stuff. This was early February. They were super vague regarding how to “apply” or what the position(s) would entail, but it sounded like it basically boiled down to managing their social media accounts and a couple of light admin things. They described it as being an “internship” and it didn’t sound paid at all, so I’m not sure what the specifics would be (which makes me more than happy to have not gotten it). They said anyone who was interested should message them on Patreon or Twitter, but that Patreon would be the best way.

    So two days after their show that had this announcement dropped, I messaged them expressing my interest and my own social media and admin experience. Then…nothing.

    Two weeks pass and they announce on their show these two guys they picked to help them out. I know 100% that they knew at least one of these guys well before this “position” was advertised. He appeared on one of their shows months ago dressed like one of them (without giving specifics, they have a very signature way they dress on their all their shows, including other content creators’ shows that they guest on) as a quick gag, so that came off a little weirdly to me. At no point during this announcement do they say anything along the lines of “Thanks to everyone who reached out! Unfortunately, we don’t have time to get back to everyone, but we appreciate the offers!” Nothing. I have no idea what they were expecting, but it just seemed lousy to not even acknowledge fans like me who were interested and then just ignored.

    Then about a week or two after that, I see a message from them via Patreon, but it’s a general mass message I’m assuming all their Patrons received talking about their expanding brand, so they would like for every $1 Patron to increase their contribution. Whether or not they meant for it to come off this way, it came off really badly to me. To make it worse, at the time, their Patreon output was had been severely lacking in the past couple of months. They went from weekly videos (as promised in their description) to one the last couple of months. (To their credit, they’ve improved it now, but it looked terrible at the time.)

    I regrettably upped my contribution so I could see a new video they were posting for a couple weeks, but I just cancelled my contribution to them a few days ago for good. I was tempted to leave feedback upon cancelling, but I didn’t think it’d be worth it, though I wish I had the nerve to. I just have such a sour taste in my mouth over this. Though I know it’s not the same as being ignored by a real employer, that’s a huge sore spot for me and this was too reminiscent of that kind of thing to not be bothered by it. However, I’m particularly irritated since I was literally giving them money in addition to offering to help them for free AT THEIR REQUEST.

    In hindsight, I know it’s good that I didn’t get this “position” and that this behavior is lousy. I guess more than anything I’m just venting about employers (or whatever these guys should be classified as) who have no qualms completely ignoring people like this. Obviously it’s much worse if the employer talks to the person to then ignore them, but this needs to stop being considered acceptable and should be called out.

    1. purple mug*

      It’s not unusual to not hear from an employer if you weren’t even interviewed. I suspect it feels crappy to you in this case because when you follow a content creator like this, you develop a quasi-personal relationship with them. So the lack of acknowledgement feels more like, “this is someone I’ve been supportive of who couldn’t be bothered to even communicate with me,” rather than just not hearing back from a job application. If they were smart business people, they would recognize that this is part of their appeal and they would be more conscientious about how they were coming off. I think you can easily see that they aren’t that professional.

      But in general, an employer isn’t going to acknowledge every application. Maybe it shouldn’t be, but it’s a pretty accepted norm. So try not to feel so hard done by it. Not hearing back sucks, but it’s not any more personal than you deciding not to take a certain job would be a judgement on the quality of the company as a whole.

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        Yeah, I wish I could quash this norm about employers never responding.

        I agree with you and developing a “quasi-personal relationship” is exactly what I wanted to AVOID happening. (I won’t go into detail, but I got burned in a similar situation that ended up being absolutely devastating, but was instigated by the content creator in question after I met him in-person.) Yeah, it probably feels a little more personal to me since I saw them that way and I’m definitely trying to not sweat it. I’m sure I sound like it right now, but the last thing I want to be is an entitled fan and I’m evaluating my behavior to make sure I don’t ever do that. I’ve seen people who are that way online and it’s super cringe-worthy when they ask for and expect special treatment.

        But yeah, that’s the thing I’m the most confused about is the complete lack of conscientiousness. It’s an awful look on their part and it just makes me wonder if it actually occurred to them how it looks. And if absolutely nothing else, it also isn’t that hard to make the quick comment on their show about not being able to get to everyone. I can’t imagine it didn’t occur to them as they were announcing the guys they actually picked.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Volunteer groups face these kinds of problems often. People who volunteer their work/money/goods do need some positive feedback/recognition of some sort. Or, as you show here, they disconnect after a bit. Keeping volunteers engaged and active is a whole huge topic by itself.

      At best it is naive of these people to think they can ignore their supporters and the supporters will just stick around anyway. Volunteers expect some level of interaction, period.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      I understand why this left a bad taste for you, but it’s definitely better that you didn’t get the position or you’d be even more disillusioned with them. These kinds of operations just aren’t managed or treated very professionally by people – partly because they rely on people’s passion and interest for the project to get their free labour or money. There are some people with Patreon who essentially treat it like a legitimate side job. They do the work, they conduct themselves professionally, they keep their promises to backers and the people subscribing to their Patreon get plenty of content. But a lot of these people just watch the money rolling in, get greedy and then get lazy.

      Still, sucks to lose respect for people whose content you like.

  99. Jan Levinson*

    This may be a low stakes question, but I’m curious to see what others think. Is there such thing as responding to emails too quickly?

    I’m four years removed from college, and very much like my job. I’ve always gotten great feedback, and no one has ever questioned my communication. However, I sometimes wonder if I respond to emails too quickly. I don’t usually have anything super time sensitive to work on, so when I receive an email, I respond right away (this pretty much goes for all emails – customers, coworkers, vendors, etc.) I would say I respond to 90% of emails within 5 minutes. Rarely do I take more than 30 minutes to respond to an email, expect for when I’m gone at lunch.

    Is this an issue? I should also note that these emails aren’t delaying me in completing more important work. I’m a quick worker in general and almost always finish tasks in less time than expected (but, still produce accurate work).

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Not an issue. I’m many years removed from college, and I’ve responded to emails immediately (or nigh-immediately) at every job I’ve had, and it’s never been an issue at all.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      This is great, especially in customer service jobs. If you are senior and jumping too quickly on non urgent emails I would start to wonder why you don’t have anything more important to do. But for more junior people I don’t think you can be too fast. Just be aware that you’re creating an expectation so in future you may have set yourself up to have a higher bar than average – you may want to be extra on your away-message/OOO game.

      1. Peaches*

        Thank you! I do work partially in customer service (along with an AP/AR role). I do make sure to be very clear in my OOO messages when I’m on vacation. :)

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      No but it can bite you sometimes when you DO have time sensitive work or things pick up. When I started my current position I was able to respond/handle issues same day or next day most of the time but now things have gotten so busy that it takes about a week for new requests (unless they are urgent and have to be prioritized). Because people were so used to me responding rapidly, I’ve had to clarify expectations moving forward. Not the end of the world, but it can be useful to just block time on your calendar to check & respond to emails once every few hours or once or twice a day. Again, I don’t think it’s an issue at all right now, but it could become one in the future!

    4. EtherIther*

      People can think anything I guess, but if someone was really on top of their emails I would just assume that they were organized and prioritized getting back to people, not that they aren’t doing other work

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I always see emails as they come in but usually wait 5 minutes before I reply. Sometimes I’ve had people miss my reply because they were still in the sent email if I reply too quickly, and occasionally the first email will be followed up with an additional question or clarification. But in general, replying to emails quickly is a good thing!

    6. pcake*

      I’m 61 and usually answer emails as soon as I see them. If I’m going through a busy work period, I email people whose emails need replies letting them know I’m drowning in work and will get back to them as soon as I can.

  100. Manager-to-Be*

    I’m going through the hiring process for the first time (I have over a decade of full-time work experience) and am about to make an offer to my top candidate. AMA!

  101. kristinemc*

    Does anyone have a link to a job description for a controller, or an idea of what the role is? I’ve been working in a smallish company for over five years – we hired an operations person last year, and I’m finding out that a lot of what I did as “controller” was operations! (I also wear an HR hat…)

    So I’m curious as to what controllers do at other places. I’ve asked for clarification of what things will remain my responsibility and what will not, but have not received it (and am unlikely to). I’d love a better understanding of what is typically a controller role, so I can be prepared when things are moved from my plate, instead of being surprised!

  102. I See Real People*

    Has anyone ever been changed from exempt/salary to a non-exempt/hourly pay during employment? I am an executive assistant. Does this look bad to future employers?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Your exempt/salary status does not have to be disclose on a job application or resume. They’ll never know.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Why would that look bad? Did you get demoted? If you’re still doing the same job for the same-ish pay and just changed from exempt to non-exempt, I don’t see how that’s a mark against you.

      1. I See Real People*

        It came during a negative annual evaluation. My manager said he was very happy with my work, my professionalism, my efficiency, etc., but that he doesn’t have enough work to keep me busy; and another manager has complained to him that I do not have “anything to do”. He said he had to “do something” to appease the other manager and the owner (who is a doctor). I was completely blindsided by this/ I have been here three years.

          1. I See Real People*

            No, apparently my manager “talked them out of that”. I’m working 40 hours still at the same rate of pay.

        2. fposte*

          I second AE’s question–this doesn’t make sense as an explanation unless they’re cutting your hours and thus your pay. That’s what would matter to me, not the exempt classification (which may have been incorrect anyway, and you may well have gotten reclassified if the new threshold goes through).

          1. I See Real People*

            No, apparently my manager “talked them out of that”. I’m working 40 hours still at the same rate of pay.

            1. fposte*

              Okay, then I’m agreeing that you had a positive evaluation and that your manager talks too much about behind-the-scenes stuff that you don’t need to know. I’m not convinced you were correctly classified as exempt in the first place and if you make under $35,308 you’d probably be switching to non-exempt soon anyway (there’s a proposal in the works to change the exemption salary threshold). So I’d be glad about the good things and not worry about the weirdness.

        3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          This isn’t a negative evaluation, then. He’s happy with your work, professionalism, efficiency! That’s a positive evaluation.

          It sounds like they switched you to hourly so they could send you home when there’s nothing to do, thus saving them money. Which is sucks, but it happens even to good staff.

    3. Argh!*

      They probably know about the change in the law that caused it. I wouldn’t worry about it.

    4. Someone Else*

      There’s no reason it should look bad. I went from exempt to non-exempt because the nature of my role changed and it no longer met the threshold for exempt (went from regular “professional” to “computer professional”, which was a step up workwise but meant they needed to either pay me WAY more or make me non-exempt).

    5. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      State thresholds may have changed even when the expected federal one didn’t. Unless it’s separately part of a demotion, it shouldn’t matter.

      I’ll admit I found it really disheartening when it happened to me, but in the long run it’s not a huge deal. And the overtime pay when needed is nice.

  103. Confused anon*

    Coworkers were talking and one of them said, “If I like the person, I’ll respond quickly. If I don’t, it might take a few days.”
    Now I dont know if he was joking or serious, but isn’t this… not right?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I mean, if somebody is a total pain in the a**, one consequence of that is that people aren’t going to prioritize their stuff / go out on a limb for them. If 48 hours is a reasonable response rate and Grouchy Gus wants something, he’s probably going to get the later end of that range. Of course not responding at all or not meeting the appropriate level of service would be wrong.

    2. ten ton trucks*

      I do this. It’s not days, but it is a case of “if someone is reasonable and easy to work with, and I know that they tell me things clearly, I will prioritize their request, and if they are a jerk and horrible to work with, they are not a priority for me”. That’s entirely on things people are asking me to do in addition to my actual work, though. If it’s a help desk ticket, there’s no prioritization based on if they’re a jerk.

    3. Temperance*

      For what it’s worth, I think this is totally normal. The pain-in-the-ass secretary in another office who does whatever she can to push work off on me, while giving me an attitude? She goes to the bottom of the pile. Someone who I like and who doesn’t waste my time/try to make me do their job? They get what they need faster.

    4. Catsaber*

      I agree with the other responses here…I’m not going to just completely thwart the disliked person’s ability to get their work done by not responding at all, or taking several days…but they’d probably go further down the priority list than others who are easier to work with.

      Part of why they go down on the list is usually because if I respond quickly, or go above and beyond for them, they will just get ever more demanding and feel entitled to instant responses/work. So I see it as setting a boundary and “training” them to not think they can dominate my time and energy.

    5. Someone Else*

      It depends on the nature of the delay. To a large extent, I think this is a natural response, not necessarily to push off the horrible person as some sort of passive-aggressive punitive measure, but as an avoidance response? Sure. For example let’s say I’m supposed to respond to everyone within 24 hours of receiving their requests. I’ve got two requests from about the same time one from a delightful person and one from someone who is miserable to work with. For my own sanity I’m going to deal with the delightful person’s stuff first, if for no other reason than to delay my own misery. If that only takes me an hour or so, then horrible person only got pushed back an hour. If in the meantime other delightful people have asked for things, I’ll probably also do that first. I will still get back to horrible person within the allowed 24 hour window. Ideally they’ll have no idea they got backburnered. I’m not trying to make a point. I’m just putting off the unpleasant for as long as is permissible.

      However if the person you were talking to should be getting back to someone same day, and they’re not doing it until two days later, or they’re doing it to make some sort of point that may or may not be received, or just to be a jerk back to someone who was a jerk in the past…that’s not cool.

    6. just a random teacher*

      I also take more care with my phrasing when responding to emails from Known Difficult People, since I want to make sure that I’ve responded professionally, without letting my irritation show, and in such a way as to do what I can to minimize chances to be misunderstood or cause drama. This may mean putting off that email until a time in my day when I can concentrate without getting interrupted rather than dashing off something quick when I have a minute here or there as I would for someone who tends to assume good intentions from me and can thus be sent a shorter, less thoroughly vetted message with the information they need.

    7. I Took A Mint*

      I agree with you, I think it shows a lack of integrity to intentionally prioritize your work based on how much you like someone. Of course it might happen unconsciously but I think you should prioritize based on the nature of the problem, not based on the person asking. I would be frustrated if someone intentionally made me wait a few days just because they didn’t know me well.

  104. Pam Beasley*

    Honestly, I know this isn’t important AT ALL, but what’s everyone’s take?

    I brought delicious leftover chicken tacos for lunch. I’ve been very much looking forward to them all day. My boss just sent out an email saying she’s buying pizza for everyone in the office today, since we’ve been doing “such a great job.” This rarely happens – I’ve been at my company for three years, and she has only done this one other time.

    My boss is the kind of person who I could see being offended if I don’t partake in the pizza. Should I just ditch my tacos and eat the pizza? I feel silly even asking this question, but I’m genuinely curious what others would do. Haha.

    (note: the tacos will go to waste if I don’t eat them today).

      1. Pam Beasley*

        I would totally do that if I didn’t have a husband at home, haha. There aren’t enough leftovers for the both of us!

        1. valentine*

          He can sort his own food. You don’t have to eat the same things, even if you insist on always eating at the same time and together.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I’d eat the tacos but still come into the lunchroom when the pizza come and act enthusiastic. I might even take a pizza slice for later if the mood struck me.

        1. Youth*

          Co-signing this–grab some pizza, wrap it in a napkin, place it in the fridge, eat it another day! Everyone wins.

      2. Anon this time*

        Second this! Eat them maybe slightly earlier than the actual lunch, and join the festivities. You don’t have to eat a slice if you don’t have room but take one for later.

    3. PB*

      If your boss will be offended, I think you should plan to have a slice of pizza. It will be good for your relationship with your boss, and a chance to bond with co-workers, if you’re all eating together.

      Any chance you could have the tacos for a late afternoon snack or for dinner?

      1. Pam Beasley*

        Oh, it’ll more of a “grab it and go” kind of thing. We all eat lunch at different times (mostly to cover the phone lines for one another), so it won’t be all of us eating together.

        I won’t be eating them for dinner since I have a husband at home (and there aren’t enough tacos for the both of us!) I could perhaps just have a little bit of pizza and maybe just one of my three tacos – haha.

    4. Catsaber*

      I am the type of person to have some pizza with my tacos. But if you aren’t that hungry, I’d either save the tacos for dinner, or eat them for lunch and just nibble a small piece of pizza.

      1. Pam Beasley*

        That’s what I’m thinking of doing! Maybe just a small slice of pizza along with 2 out of 3 of my tacos – haha.

    5. The Tin Man*

      If the tacos will go to waste and you want them more (which is what it sounds like) I would eat them!

      If you really think your boss will take offense could you eat the smallest slice as an appeasement appetizer? I don’t know the eating situation at your office but I bet in most cases you could grab a slice and barely even eat it but the boss would just note that Pam grabbed some pizza. As long as you don’t throw it away in front of her.

      1. Pam Beasley*

        I don’t know if she would for sure be offended, but I think there’s a chance she would be. I may just grab a slice for appeasement and enjoy my tacos later!

  105. AnotherChanceMaybe*

    Is it a red flag if an organization’s senior managerial staff is mostly comprised of people in their 20’s to early 30’s (from a cursory search in LinkedIn)? And only the executive staffers look to be in the age range you would expect people with that much experience would look like? I’m not hesitant to work with people that I’m probably quite a bit older than, but can’t help but feel that this is a bit odd. And wonder if this company I’m interviewing with has some kind of managerial issues where people in the 30’s-40’s quit or they are running some kind of middle aged Logan’s Run at this place?

      1. AnotherChanceMaybe*

        It’s not a tech startup. I don’t want to go into too many details, but it’s been around for awhile and they have quite the established business.

    2. Lily B*

      Not necessarily. But definitely ask the hiring manager detailed questions about the culture and workload. Without explicitly referencing age, you can say something like, “Work-life balance is really important to me, and spending time with my family is the priority right now. How available do you expect people to be outside of normal business hours?” etc.

      1. AnotherChanceMaybe*

        I did ask about flexible schedules and they said it was up to the reporting manager. Which was fine for me during the HR screener stage – which was before I discovered their weird age gap issue. But I think I will ask the recruiter again – I’ve also not spoken with the hiring manger yet either. Which is another weird thing I need to ask about as well.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would start looking at salaries. It could be, not a definite thing though, that they are paying lower wages by hiring younger people.
      Usually when I see young people in a higher position they are being paid too little. Oddly, this was what was happening when I started working thirty something years ago, also.

  106. Anonymous Educator*

    Is it bad to look at job postings at work if A) you’ve already given notice, and B) it’s not taking up so much of your time as to interfere with getting your work done?

  107. CatCat*

    Does anyone operate a small craft business? Can you recommend resources for spreadsheets for inventory and bookkeeping? I have some crafts I want to start selling (on quite a small scale to start out with). One of the things I have found very confusing is the whole inventory and accounting aspects of it that are necessary for tax reasons. I am looking for a small scale solution like a spreadsheet and not something that requires an ongoing subscription or paying someone else to do it.

    1. boredatwork*

      Aside from the sales tax implications (google that in your state/county/city) for actual income tax purposes, you are really considered a “hobbyist” and I seriously doubt that you would even marginally begin to make a profit.

      Once you take into account that cost of your materials and time, let alone operating costs, you would be in a loss position and hobby losses are not allowed to be off-set against regular income.

      Hope this help!

      1. EmmaBird*

        I totally understand where you’re coming from and that’s definitely true for a lot of people, but considering we have no way of knowing what CatCat’s exact situation or overall business plan is I think it’s best to give them the benefit of the doubt here and stick to the questions at hand.

        1. boredatwork*

          I based my recommendation on the fact that I am a CPA and if CatCat were my client, I would give her that exact advice. If she scales her business to the point where she is turning a profit, after factoring labor (her time), overhead (where she crafts), and basically anything she buys to craft with (supplies/materials), she should really be talking with someone who can give her specific advice.

      2. CatCat*

        Why would I be considered a hobbyist? I am setting it up to operate with the goal of making a profit. I have separated the business finances, have set up a DBA, have the appropriate state seller certificate, and plan to sell with the goal of making a profit (though I would not expect to realize a profit this year).

        It was a hobby and I decided to make it a business and have taken steps for it to be a legitimate business. I have to start somewhere. How does one go from “hobbyist” to business beyond the efforts that I am making?

        1. Natalie*

          The IRS has some guidance as to when something is considered a business or a hobby (I’ll provide a link in a reply). The scale actually doesn’t matter as much as the purpose of the activity – if your purpose is largely the enjoyment of the activity, then it’s more likely a hobby. If your purpose is to make money, then it’s a business.

          2. CatCat*

            The goal is definitely to make money. I have purchased separate ingredients for the business using the business account and store them in a separate area. Anything that I am doing just for kicks (like gifts for family or friends), I use from ingredients NOT purchased through the business account and not stored with the items for the business.

            I do use some of the same equipment (containers, spatulas), but was NOT planning to count that equipment as a business expense because of the blur between personal and business use.

        2. boredatwork*

          Natalie provided excellent advice. It’s really more about losses than profits. The IRS has strong opinions about people taking losses from their hobby and using them to offset income from their business. This is nice markewatch example, that takes into account tax reform.

          https://www.marketwatch.com/story/you-cant-deduct-hobby-related-expenses-under-the-new-tax-lawbut-dont-give-up-hope-2018-05-14

          Also – this color changes my answer, you are going to need to invest in some form of manageable business system. If you’re not just trying to sell a few scarves on etsy, you really need accurate record keeping and the help of a qualified accountant.

    2. EmmaBird*

      I’m just starting off selling my art on the side and my dad suggested that I start off with a simple running document that just tracks my income vs expenses. Considering I am doing this on the side I think that’ll work just fine for now until/if I start making some serious money where I might actually be able to pay myself!

      As for inventory I can’t personally suggest anything but I’d be curious to hear if others have suggestions.

    3. Margaret*

      To clarify regarding the hobby/business distinction, you still have to report gross income for a hobby, though for this purpose it is reduced by direct cost of sales (i.e., the inventory costs you’re trying to track). (You used to be able to also deduct other related costs – e.g., marketing, office supplies – but it was a part of itemized deductions so not always helpful. That’s no longer deductible, but you still only have to report the income net of the direct costs.)

      How to best track inventory depends on the nature of the product – e.g., do you make custom things where you can directly trace, say, 2 yards of fabric, to that specific apron you made? Or do you buy 2 yards of fabric and cut it into 24 separate potholders to sell? You’d want to track a separate column for each large item, or for each category of smaller items. But then within each column/category, just add in all the direct costs, and then when you get to the end of the year (for tax purposes, or monthly or quarterly if you just want to track for yourself), determine how much of those costs are inventory you still have or inventory that you sold. The costs of the inventory you sold are netted with the income you got for it.

      I’m sure you can google to see examples, but then I’d just make your own spreadsheet, customized to the type of product you sell.

      E.g., if you added up total costs of $36 in the “potholders” category, and made 24 potholders. You’ve sold 18 of them and still have 6 left. So 75% (18/24) is your cost of goods sold for what you’ve sold, and can reduce the gross income. $9 is remaining in inventory (doesn’t reduce income until you sell those 6).

    4. Natalie*

      Can you provide a little bit more detail on what the craft is and what you buy for it? The nature of the items you’re buying to create your craft item makes a difference as to whether or not they are treated as inventory or incidental supplies.

      1. CatCat*

        The craft is soaps made from scratch so there are all the ingredients that go into soaps (fats, colors, scents, lye). I think I have a very basic grasp of COGS (and things that aren’t part of COGS like when I paid a designer to make me a logo) from the research that I have done and understand using accrual accounting is the best method when you have inventory. It’s so different from how I handle my personal finances (cash basis) that I am struggling on how to keep track of it all so at the end of the year, I can have an accurate report for tax purposes.

        1. boredatwork*

          Yes, accounting for inventory properly for tax purposes is a pain. I calculate the book-tax inventory difference for my fortune 150 manufacturing company, so I can pretty well versed.

          In your first year, I would try to make it as easy on yourself as possible. Keep track of what you made, and what you spent, if at the end of the year you have a profit, I would strongly advice getting some actual tax advice.

        2. NotMyRealName*

          With this detail, it might be worth looking into QuickBooks. It’s pretty user friendly and works well for tax information.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Look into the Craft Industry Alliance, a group for small craft businesses with lots of resources on their Web site, some free and some for members only.

  108. DataGirl*

    Curious, has anyone in the US ever found a consulting gig (for example working for a company that provides consulting services) that provided affordable, quality health benefits? I’d love to get into consulting but I have to have a job that provides good insurance as my family has a lot of health problems. My husband is a consultant (his company does not provide health insurance) so the burden falls on me. ACA and Cobra are not options- both are way too expensive and don’t have great coverage.

    1. irene adler*

      I did a phone interview with a company that provides consultants – PSC Biotech. Their consultants get healthcare.

  109. Success!*

    A while back I posted about how I pushed back when a potential employer (a university) wanted to talk to my manager before extending me an offer. They told me they had never made an offer without talking to the manager first. I said I wasn’t comfortable with that, even though I expected a good reference. Thanks to my AAM reading, I was able to arrange that they would make me an offer first and have it be contingent on a reference from my manager.

    Well! I got the job and I am now involved in a hiring process here. Near the beginning, the HR person said that they wouldn’t request a reference form a manager until after the offer had been extended. She explained to the search committee that talking to manager before extending an offer puts candidates in a difficult position. This was a decades-old practice! And I’m pretty sure they changed it because of me!

      1. valentine*

        Were you transferring within a university? Either way, this is a bizarre premise of your manager owning you. Obviously, you would want to be the one to speak to your manager and hinging an offer on a current manager’s reference only works with reasonable people.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Wow, that’s great! The university I work for also insists on talking to current managers, but at least the candidate gets a contingent offer first. I still think that’s ridiculous.

  110. AnonnyNon*

    So, I saw all that stuff on accents earlier this week and I want to ask something.

    I have an accent that I would say isn’t “fixed”. I tend to, after going someplace and listening to the people for a while, pick up some of the tone/nuances. It’s not a deliberate mimic, and it’s not something I work at (I actually have to actively work to make it not happen). I only noticed it really when I went to NY on a work trip and I was worried the person I was meeting with would think I was mocking them. Is this something I ought to be wary of long-term? It’s not a one person thing, more of an environment one.

    1. fposte*

      That’s actually pretty common–it’s subset of what’s called linguistic accommodation. However, I think it’s worth being careful about it, especially if you’re talking to somebody whose speech tends to be considered mockworthy (southern drawls, for instance) or if there’s a significant power differential.

    2. Enough*

      This type of thing tends to be more subtle. If you were talking in an exaggerated manner I would have a problem. Had a friend from college who would pick up local accents/inflections within days. Never had a problem.

    3. Slartibartfast*

      I do this in particular with Southern accents. When my husband was in the military, my 3 best friends had thick southern accents, and I picked it up. After we got out it took two years of actively trying to lose it to talk “normal” for my home area (where I was born) and I have to consciously think about not taking that way if I’m around someone with a drawl. On the plus side, if you do have a Southern accent I will instantly like you because it’s attached to some pretty good memories for me.

  111. Luisa*

    Thinking about your recent job search(es), at what point did you start applying for jobs that you were less enthused about (which I’m going to call “second choice jobs”)?

    I work in a field which typically moves relatively quickly with hiring, due to there being a limited window each year to fill open positions. The hiring window opened about a month ago, and this far I’ve only applied for “first choice jobs” (that is, jobs that I think I’d be quite likely to accept if it got to that point), but the majority of jobs being posted right now are “second choice jobs” for me. Mostly this is because of location (I’m looking to shorten my commute, and many jobs I’m seeing wouldn’t make that possible), but in some cases where location is favorable, the duties are not as well aligned to my preferences/strengths as would be ideal.

    I am pretty set on leaving my current position because there are a lot of factors making me unhappy that will definitely not change, but I’m wary of going into a “second choice job” and being unhappy there for a year (or more) only to go through the search process all over. I’m not concerned about job-hopping, and a 1-2 year stay won’t have a negative impact on my current job history – it’s really that I don’t want to go through the job-search process more often than is necessary because it’s stressful!

    Words of advice appreciated!

    1. merp*

      No advice but in a similar boat. I’m (fingers crossed) moving to a new house in a new city in May – could commute to current job but it would suck, so I’ve been applying for about a month. I’m thinking I might start putting out some apps to less thrilling jobs soon. Hard to think of wanting to job hunt again so soon, though :/

    2. Luisa*

      Probably worth mentioning: If I don’t find a new position in this round of searching, I’ll be stuck in my current job until next hiring season (1 year).

  112. Leslie Knope*

    Does anyone have any advice for how to deal with rumors that your company may be folding? My team and I heard about this in the news earlier this week and unfortunately haven’t received much reassurance that the rumors are false. My boss gathered us all together and said as far as he knows it is “business as usual,” and we have not heard anything aside from this.

    I plan on updating my resume but should I go ahead and start looking for a new job? Has anyone else been in this kind of situation before?

    1. cactus lady*

      Definitely update your resume, and I think it can’t hurt to at least LOOK and see what’s available. You never know what might happen – maybe the company will fold, maybe you’ll find an amazing opportunity!

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I think looking for a new job is always the right answer — it doesn’t commit you to anything! But it’s good to see what’s out there if you’re at all curious.

    3. Autumnheart*

      I think it would be prudent to at least *prepare* to be laid off. Update your resume, collect any resume-worthy examples of your work if that applies, get the contact information of people you’d like to use as references. If the belongings in your cube would require more than one box to remove, consider taking some of them home each night. If you do get laid off, you won’t want to prolong the agony of your departure by having to make multiple trips to the car. (Or worse, potentially lose some belongings if the company won’t let you go back to your desk for your things.)

      I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that if it made the news broadcast, and your manager didn’t deny it and said it is “business as usual”…your company is folding. But it could be in a week, a month, six months, a year…no way to tell. Consider these events to be your advance notice and start getting your ducks in a row. The silver lining is that if and when the hammer does fall, you’ll already have all your stuff updated, and can go get shitfaced and mope for a few days.

  113. Hotel Scents?*

    Question for people in hospitality and frequent travelers: Hotel scents. When did this become a thing? Is there any hope of it going away soon?

    It’s been a long time since I had a job doing event planning, so I didn’t realize hotel scents are a “thing” now. I had the misfortune to tour an AC Hotel by Marriott this week, and their custom scent, “Beyond the Woods,” is absolutely vile and repulsive. It made my eyes burn the entire time I was in the hotel and most of us on the tour sneezed frequently. The hotels rooms and hallways smelled like a barnyard, and not in a good way. It’s a shame, because the hotel was beautiful with excellent soundproofing. I would honestly prefer cigarette smoke to the overwhelming smells in that hotel. My clothes reeked when I got home and my eyes burned for the rest of the night. The hotel manager assured me that “people really enjoy the pleasant signature scent, because it smells fresh.”

    Afterwards, I saw online that I am not alone in being repulsed by these scents, although some people actually buy them for their homes. Why would a company want to viscerally revolt some of their customers and make others ill, when they could just…not? At least I understand now why I always get extremely ill at events in hotels!

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, Hyatts were doing that for a while. I really like fragrance, but I don’t want a hotel to choose it for me.

      My guess is that it smooths out weird hotel smells like humanity, new carpet, etc., and also that most people either like it or they’re neutral, and that enough of those who dislike it are traveling for work and don’t need to be courted.

    2. Antilles*

      I haven’t encountered that much, very rarely. That said, the couple times I have gone into a hotel and immediately had a strong custom scent, my mind immediately jumps to wondering if they’re trying to cover up a more unpleasant scent.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I haven’t run into this yet, but it sounds very unpleasant. I’d rather a hotel just smelled like nothing. I’d be inclined to think a heavy scent is covering up something they don’t want me to know about, like problems with mold, etc. that could smell musty.

    6. Llellayena*

      I know someone with such a severe scent allergy (to ANY scent) that she’d be using multiple epipens just from stepping 2 feet into the lobby there. In general, scents should never be so strong that you can’t ignore them, so that level sounds ridiculous.

  114. Anon this time*

    I’m ranting and whining, but any insights would be helpful.

    I just found out that I got rejected a job that I REALLY wanted and went through 3 rounds of interviewing for (including a 4 hour case study interview). I’m so bummed and disappointed. Yes I KNOW that just because you want a job and spend hours preparing for it doesn’t mean you get it, but I feel like I would have been really good at it!

    Also, this is the third job I’ve interviewed for in the course of a year of active job hunting. I’ve seen so many people at my company leave for jobs in less than a year. What’s wrong with me??? I’m extremely frustrated at the fact that no matter how hard I try, I feel like I never fare as well in job hunting as my peers. I graduated from a good grad program with a good GPA and internships and everything, and while my classmates comfortably walked off the graduation stage into salaried jobs, I went on interview after interview, doing contract gig after contract gig, until I finally landed this job. It wasn’t my ideal role, but I thought it would be easier to find a new job after about a year. But nope! I’m here almost 2 years now with no new job in sight. This is EXTREMELY frustrating. I know I’m qualified for the jobs I interview for, even more qualified than the people who get the job sometimes. I don’t even know.

    1. Anon this time*

      Though follow up question to this – Would it be appropriate to ask the recruiter if there were other openings in the company I could apply to? (For context, the recruiter reached out to me about the position, so I didn’t apply the traditional way.)

    2. Anon, Too*

      Don’t know if this helps any, but I have a solid 6 year work history, with accomplishments and great performance reviews. I would like to go full-time but because of the rampant nepotism in my workplace I know that will never happen. I applied at Walmart and have heard nothing. Not even a phone interview. I’ve applied to all kinds of jobs, even factory/plant jobs that would be hard for me due to a medical condition, but I haven’t had any luck at all.

      I’ve told myself that job hunting is really hard and can take a long time. I’m desperate to get out and get a job that would include medical since I’m coming off my parents medical plan in June but no luck. It’s very depressing and some people don’t understand that jobs don’t magically fall in your lap. I actively job hunt at least 3 days a week and nothing.

      So no advice but much sympathy.

    3. Mellow*

      “I know I’m qualified for the jobs I interview for, even more qualified than the people who get the job sometimes.”
      —————–

      I’m curious how you know or determine other job candidates’ qualifications.

  115. Entry Level Marcus*

    I’m currently working an entry-level temp position with a chance (though no guarantee, I’ll still be hunting for other jobs) of being hired on permanently at the end of it. If I was offered a permanent position with this employer, I would really want to take it as it would be good for my career and I really like the organization. The problem is that I’m pretty certain they would explicitly want whomever takes this permanent position to commit to staying on for at least 2 years, and I can’t guarantee I’ll be in this city in 2 years time. The reason for that is that my SO, who is in graduate school, is likely going to try to transfer to another program in the next application cycle, and if she is successful it would require a cross-country move. Transferring schools in her field is hard and so there’s no guarantee she’ll be successful, but it’s a real possibility.

    Would it be ethical for me to take a permanent position with my current employer given that I can’t guarantee I’ll stay on for 2 years? What if they specifically asked me if I could commit to staying on at least 2 years? I don’t want to hamstring my career and livelihood over something that only *might* happen, but at the same time I wonder if it would be dishonest to accept the position while omitting the fact that I might move with my SO before 2 years are up, and risk burning bridges if I do have to move before 2 years are up. Thoughts?

    1. ten ton trucks*

      This is gonna vary A LOT, but my personal feel on this subject is that unless they’re willing to sign an employment contract with you, you don’t owe them an actual commitment of 2 years. You don’t know for a fact that you’ll be moving before 2 years is up. Sure, it’s a possibility in your life, but its a possibility in everyone’s life that someone will come up and change things. I don’t think it’s necessary for you to plan your life and your job career over something that might potentially happen in the future, especially since, as you say, there’s no way to know that your SO will be successful in transferring.

    2. Argh!*

      It’s an entry-level position, so I wouldn’t worry about it. They found you, and they’ll find another you, probably through the same agency. If you were a high-level engineer and the potential job was a five-year redesign of a space station, then it would be inappropriate to overpromise.

      And you don’t even know for sure that your SO’s plans will pan out. I say go for it!

    3. Amethystmoon*

      I wouldn’t commit to 2 years if you didn’t think you could do it. There may be other jobs in the same company available.

  116. Mouse Princess*

    So sad…I had an interview for my “dream job” (sure there’s no such thing but I’m in a toxic work environment right now and this really was a great opportunity and org). I aced the interview but then there was a test in Excel. I tanked it. I’m pretty good with Excel but I was nervous and the tasks were more advanced than I’d expected. I’m so disappointed. I tried to be gracious in my thank-you email, but I’m humiliated. So…sad…and being back at work today knowing this won’t come through is just so depressing.

    1. Hmmm*

      We’ve all been there. It sucks and it is totally okay to wallow in how much it sucks for a bit. Even though the Excel test was something you did, you may find comfort in putting into perspective how even when we ace interviews and pass the tests with flying colors, the company can still decide not to proceed for some reason.

      1. Mouse Princess*

        That’s true! Thank you. I knew I was at the low end of qualifications to begin with, so I’ll keep it in perspective. In the meantime, I guess I know that I should take some courses if that’s the kind of job I want.

  117. 867-5309*

    You could list “independent consultant” as a job and then provide general bullets under it,
    – Increased the email CTR by 5% after redesigning the emails for a defense contractor.
    – Led the redevelopment of the website for an aviation client that resulted in a 10% increase in time on site.

  118. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am attending an industry conference and went to a panel discussion featuring all women in very elevated positions (presidents and CEOs). This is an industry that has typically been run by White men and I still find myself in meetings where I am the only woman. Unusual for me as I came from an adjacent field that had tons of women in leadership roles. Anyway. The moderator, a man, introduced all of the panelists with, “And they all happen to be beautiful women!”, then he opened the discussion by asking these women how they balanced being a mommy and being in charge. It was cringe-inducing, but all of the panelists handled it extremely well, including one who made a crack about how perfection is BS and her husband was a stay-at-home dad. There were some other weird questions about what they do on weekends. Then they were running behind, so no time for Q&A.

    My co-worker and I were soooo irritated. We approached one of the panelists afterwards and asked her what she thought. She rolled her eyes, said some choice things, and told us that she told the moderator that on his next panel, he needs to ask that same work-life balance question of the men. Then we made a point to relay this story to our company president (who skipped the panel, which I found problematic in and of itself). I will be including my thoughts about this on the survey that will inevitably go out next week, but DAMN. I just consider myself lucky that I have my co-worker and we’re on exactly the same page about how women are treated in this business.

    2. Argh!*

      Old-fashioned men can’t go from zero to sixty at the same rate that they can go from nice to creepy. The fact that they even had the panel is a step in the right direction, so there’s that.

      1. TheOtherLiz*

        Nah, I don’t want anyone’s crumbs. Why was a man even moderating this panel?!?!?!? Why didn’t he ask better questions or leave sexism out of it? We deserve better. It’s better than that one Utah college that had a panel on women in math and the panel was all men, though. But truly the battle for the basement.

    3. CM*

      I have seen the “beautiful women” thing happen so many times!! Ugh. But this seems worse, with all the followup questions about their personal lives. I’m glad you (and I hope other panelists and attendees) are raising this as an issue.

      1. just a random teacher*

        Urgh. Whenever anyone makes a comment like that about a group I’m part of, it always makes me want to start scratching my armpit, or belch loudly, or something, just to drive home that I clearly did not get here by going to charm school and being ladylike, but rather by Knowing Useful Stuff. (I don’t actually do this, but it’s always tempting.)

        Definitely something to let the conference organizers know about. If a moderator at a con I was running pulled something like this, he’d be on the “no longer will be allowed to moderate list” going forward. (Possibly only as a short vacation of a year or two if he seemed to want to reflect on things and improve, on a more permanent basis if he doubled down.)

    4. irene adler*

      At least the panelists could give responses that countered such ignorant questions. And they were able to speak to the moderator about the questions.
      In times past, women just had to grin and bear such ignorance.
      But yes, this needs to end. No place for it.

    5. ..Kat..*

      The moderator was a MAN? Because, what, a women’s panel can’t possibly have a woman moderator? And he said that shitty, condescending stuff? WTF?

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I actually didn’t mind that the moderator was a man. I had hoped it was an opportunity for this guy, who is very respected in this industry, to emphasize that these women are practically the bosses of everyone and not just mommies. I’ve seen men interview women and treat them with respect and even awe, so I had high hopes. Those hopes got dashed right quick. *eyeroll*

      The following day, my co-worker and I were talking casually with a client. He asked us if we would be handling part of our company’s presentation, we told him no, it was just the senior guys. His response was a sarcastic, “Oh, no girls on stage, huh?” which I very, very much appreciated. (Typing it out doesn’t quite capture his tone, which basically implied that she and I should absolutely be up on that stage. So there is support in some corners!)

  119. Sneep Snoop*

    Lovely commentariat, do y’all know what I should do? I’m turning into a negative Nelly.

    My boss has been a manager for a long time and hasn’t done the work I do for maybe 30 years (and it has changed a loooot – like, computers happened). Several times a week he calls me into his office to offer to sign me up for workshops, or buy certain pieces of equipment. Most of those suggestions are not great: think taking an expensive semester-long class in spout design when my job is actually developing heat-resistant ceramics for teapots. Or buying TeapotPro when everyone in the industry works with TeapotPerfect files.

    Anyway long story short I say no to him a lot, and sometimes I have to explain in-depth why something wouldn’t work. I’m starting to worry that he’ll see me as overly negative and too invested in the status quo. I swear I’m not and I love learning! I however don’t want to waste time and money on useless things.

    Any ideas for ways to decline his offers in a way that’s less unequivocally negative?

    1. ten ton trucks*

      Come up with things you actually need/want to counter. He’s trying to help, he just has no idea how to. So bring things to him.

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly!
        I’d say, he’s really trying to do the things he believes are supportive.
        So always think him for thinking of things for you. Then, bring similar things to him that are in line with your job expertise. That also removes the onus on him to be the “finder” of enrichment opportunities. He’ll probably like that.

      2. Argh!*

        My sentiment exactly. He may be grasping at straws because you’re not bringing suggestions or requests to him. He is probably wish you would say something like this:

        “Hey, boss. Company XYZ has switched to TeapotPro3.7, and it looks like that’s the new industry standard. I’d like to upgrade my skill set by attending LMNOP tech school’s online course, and they issue certification so I could help implement an upgrade. Would you approve of the course fee and some time to work on this?”

    2. Amber Rose*

      Can you find some workshops that would be helpful and ask about attending those? Or bring up equipment that would be helpful?

      The best way to say no is to offer an alternative, or at least be proactive enough that he doesn’t feel the need to offer stuff so much.

    3. EmmaBird*

      I’ve been in this situation before and in addition to what others have already suggested– if there’s anything you might be able to learn from your boss he might appreciate being able to mentor you as well. I’m a designer and there are aspects of design that haven’t changed even with computers, so I’ve used that to my advantage with bosses that were pre-computer designers and learned some really fascinating things that I’ve been able to adapt for my current use.

  120. Junior Dev*

    Monday is the date I’m supposed to go back to work after medical leave. I made a couple therapist appointments during the day that week. I figured it would be good for me to have some shortened work days to see how I’m doing with going back to work.

    I’m nervous. I was so anxious at work that I couldn’t concentrate and was having panic attacks. I think I’ve got some good coping skills that I’ve worked on with therapist but I’m scared I’ll forget to use them.

    I also am wondering what to tell people if they ask questions about my leave. I assume most of them will be from a place of concern, not nosiness. But I don’t know if I want to talk about my brain problems to every random person I have a meeting with. Any advice on this?

    1. Argh!*

      “I took some medical leave, and things have really turned around for me. Thanks for the warm welcome back.”

    2. Havarti*

      If you’re worried about forgetting your coping skills, maybe write them down on a sticky and refer to them if you start feeling nervous.

      Keep your answer to a vague “Had to get some health stuff taken care of but I’m doing much better now.” And then quickly follow up with something like: “So how have you been doing? Seen any cute dogs at the park recently?” to make it clear we are NOT discussing Junior Dev’s health issues and people generally love being asked about themselves anyway. If they push, they get “Listen, I really would rather not talk about it. How are the TPS reports coming along?” The stigma around mental health is still bad enough that you don’t want to be sharing about it.

      Also, I don’t know what is the source of your anxiety (workload, boss, coworkers, something unrelated to work) but are you able to discuss with your boss how to make any possible changes to reduce the chance of something triggering a panic attacks? Or if your job is a complete toxic dumpster fire, then you should be plotting your escape. Good luck!

      1. Junior Dev*

        My job is actually pretty great and my boss is very supportive! I am dealing with a lot of accumulated burnout from years of prior, crappy jobs and also you know. Brains be brainin’.

    3. CM*

      Reassuring people that they have nothing to worry about is often a good way to deflect. “What were you out for?” “A minor medical issue, but nothing serious, thanks. What did I miss?” And if they follow up with more specific questions, you can reiterate, “I appreciate the concern, but it’s nothing to worry about.”

    4. Junior Dev*

      Update: I talked to my therapist and I will be part time for the first two weeks, which will make it easier to adjust, I think.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I was having bouts of panic with dizziness. The doc suggested to me that I practice my breathing exercises in a calm moment. He said that practicing would help make it stay in my thinking when I needed it.
      I have to say it felt stupid to practice, but I did. Bonus points- I found that if I did my breathing exercises right when I got in bed, I slept better. I never expected to see that.

      And the doc was right. I found that I was able to do my breathing better because of all the dry runs I had been doing.
      I am not sure what your coping tools are so I dunno if this will fit your situation. If you are not able to actually do the coping tools perhaps you can set aside a few minutes each day to picture each tool in your head, you know, like a review but you do it every day. Anything that reinforces your plan would probably be of some help.

  121. KatieKate*

    I want to presumptively say that I am a late 20s adult, but I miss naptime.

    At my last job I had a private office that I could close the door and sneak 20 minutes during lunch. I’m allergic to caffeine, so this made a huge dent in my productivity. Now six months into my new job, I’m in an open plan with no privacy. Lunch is a social thing, and I walk to work so it’s not like I can sneak out to my car for a few minutes.

    I’m finding myself dozing off during meetings (mornings or afternoon, there’s not really a pattern) and yawning all of the time. I’m doing everything I can to make sure I have the best sleep at night, but I’ve dealt with chronic insomnia since I was a teen so trust me–I’ve tried it. Plus, I live in in an apartment in the city, so I can’t always control my environment.

    I would love suggestions on how to stay awake at work. I’m horribly embarrassed and want to fix this as soon as possible!

      1. Overeducated*

        I would love to do this as I tend to have a real slump in the mid-afternoon, but I’m afraid of being seen not working by someone (my boss?) out the window, so I self-medicate with coffee and sugar instead. It’s like the Industrial Revolution all over again here.

    2. VAP*

      I find that something that helps me stay awake for short periods is having a drink/snack. Preferably something fairly flavorful–I tend to use mint tea if I don’t want caffeine. Taking a sip seems to provide enough sensory input to wake me up for a minute or two–and then I can take another sip. In my workplaces, taking a mug of tea to a meeting is pretty unremarkable. I also sometimes end up taking notes, even if it’s not strictly necessary, because that also helps me stay awake and focused.

    3. Havarti*

      Man, I’d love to bring back naptimes. I used to doze off in meetings when I first started working. I think I got better at not doing it by forcing myself to listen and engage with the topic. Like nowadays I actually understand what people are talking about so it’s interesting/relevant to me so I don’t get sleepy.

    4. animaniactoo*

      I think you may be focused on the wrong thing. If you have chronic insomnia, it sounds like this may be sleep that your body *needs* and foregoing it may be creating a bigger issue.

      If you happen to be in NYC, or if your city has some enterprising businesses doing this also, check out Nap York or Google “NYC sleep pods” to find a few other places doing the same thing. Basically, it’s a space you can rent for 20 minutes or so at a time to go take a nap in the middle of the day. They offer other relaxation space stuff, and maybe just that down/zone-out time would work for you, but it was the sleep pods I was thinking might be most beneficial.

    5. Olive Hornby*

      Drinking really cold water helps me stay awake during meetings–or anything else that feels like a shock to the system (e.g. sitting under an AC vent.) But ugh, add this to the list of things that are terrible about open plan!

    6. Lierre*

      Fellow caffeine-allergic person here; you have my sympathy! I try to lure my brain back to consciousness with ginger or peppermint tea. In an emergency, I make a small decaf coffee, add a ton of sugar, and try to trick my brain into thinking it’s caffeinated. Peppermint gum can be helpful, as long as one can resist the urge to blow bubbles. :-) Have you thought about aromatherapy? There are some scents that purport to be invigorating, such as lemon or orange. You could try a roll-on scent to minimize the chance of it encroaching on anyone else.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      You might need a medical sleep study. If you have apnea or another serious sleep disorder, it needs to be treated.
      Hopefully, you’ll find good sleep soon.

      1. valentine*

        Seconding the sleep study. Talk to your doctor about the insomnia. On weekends, take a three-hour afternoon naps and see what that does for you. Are you a night person? Can you adjust your work schedule so you start later?

        Go out for lunch. Is there not a public space within ten minutes’ walk, even a random bench? I think the open-plan and nonstop interaction is wearing you out. You need all kinds of proper rest and you can start by trying to sleep more when you can sleep and by taking proper breaks away from the other humans.

        Triage. Can you go to bed earlier or sleep four hours, be up for x, and sleep another five? When you’re able to sleep, you’re going to need more than eight hours for a long time before you can readjust down.

    8. Pam*

      Could you cut the social thing lunch by a bit to get your walk done?

      “Sorry folks- this is my last Scrabble round- gotta get those steps in!”

    9. Koala dreams*

      Since you suffer from insomnia, could you get time for a nap or for a short walk morning and afternoon as an accomodation?

      Otherwise, I find fruit to be better for keeping awake than pure sugar. If you can walk away from your workplace to the nearest shop and buy it, even better, since then you get a few steps in.

  122. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

    So I feel the need to move on from my current position within a year. I’m currently a creative admin/EA, in a great work environment. I’ve been here two years, but there’s no where higher to go in my department. And I completed so many big projects that now I feel like I don’t have much to do.

    I think a next good step for me might be an office manager or a chief of staff role…but is that unrealistic? I only have a bachelor’s degree, and I’m not super interested in going through grad school if I don’t need to. I currently have 7 years experience in various assistant roles.

    I handle a lot of office manager duties in our current office, and even cover for my boss (a Chief of Staff) on many things when she’s out. Last year, my boss thought my next step should be aiming for a higher role than what I have, but I’m not sure what that should be. I’d ask her, but she’s away on maternity leave for the next month.

    1. Havarti*

      Are you looking for a new position within your current company? Within your current department? Your best bet would be to ask your boss when she’s back, especially since she was the one who brought it up originally. In the meantime, take a look around you. Do you know what degree your boss has? Are there office managers in your work place? Are you friendly enough with them to talk about how they got their jobs? How likely do you think there could be a job opening in the future or would they need to create a role for you? Don’t go too far into the weeds but think about what you know of the organization compared to what you want. Like I know if I want to move up where I am, I have to go grad school.

    2. Argh!*

      Supervision isn’t easy, but everyone has a first supervisory job. I say go for it, and meanwhile see if you can find a volunteer opportunity where you can supervise a few people. That would give you some creds.

      You could also look into internal training where you are or take an online course in basic management principles. That would show you’ve given it some thought and that you wouldn’t be applying for a higher-level job just for the money.

      Since your manager is away, is there another manager you could talk to? They may have ideas too.

      Good luck with this! Your degree means you can and will learn new skills, so don’t sell yourself short!

  123. Jessen*

    This is one of those “thinking in text for general feedback” things.

    I’ve been trying to narrow down what I’d like to do when I grow up (says the 30 year old woman) past just learning programming. I’m realizing I miss some of the energy of call center work – just not the pay or the upper management. But I enjoyed the sort of fast-paced work and being in a place where people were bringing problems to me that needed to be handled RIGHT NOW and I could get them done. I also, it turns out, am good at handling upset people. The flip side is I really liked that once I was off I was, by and large, off for the day. So I’m kind of trying to think long-term how those sorts of skills would be useful in something that’s treated better than call center work.

    1. Catsaber*

      You could try an internal help desk type role, like at a large company or university. I work at a large state university, and while higher ed has it’s problems, we tend to have pretty good benefits and work-life balance. There’s typically more upward mobility if you are working for an internal help desk as opposed to an outsourced one. And tons of upset people to work with. :)

      2. Jessen*

        That’s technically where I am right now. I think I sort of count as outsourced, but it’s one of those government contract deals where one contracting company supplies basically everyone. I like the job but I don’t really want to keep living here all my life though.

    2. Mouse Princess*

      If you work in programming, have you looked at becoming a data analyst or working in database management? A lot of companies and non-profits require this work to be fast paced, running reports quickly, knowing which queries to run, adding new fields, triaging bugs and glitches. But you also get to work in the head-space of being computer and tech oriented.

      1. Catsaber*

        Oh this is true as well! I used to be a data analyst and I’m now I’m a data warehouse developer.

      2. Jessen*

        Clarification: I work in low-level IT help desk right now. I’m studying basic programming and really enjoying it, but also looking to better refine how I could use it to build a career.

      3. Jessen*

        I have been looking at learning SQL and Oracle management work though – so I’ll keep that on the list!

        1. Catsaber*

          I would throw Microsoft SQL Server into the mix. Oracle is great and all, but SQL Server is very widely used as a less expensive and faster-to-implement alternative. Also they have way better support! Signed, a person who hates calling Oracle tech support for all my broken data warehouse crap

          But seriously, I recommend the Brent Ozar stuff as a good, free/low cost option for learning SQL Server.

    3. Trinity Beeper*

      How about product management? Though it’s not required, your programming background could be pretty helpful for a job as a PM. You have to take a lot of problems from a lot of stakeholders – some of whom want their solution RIGHT NOW, but there’s a lot of prioritization going on. You get to be at the intersection of business strategy, marketing, sales, dev, design teams.

    4. Rainy days*

      Wow, if you are good at handling upset people, that is amazing!

      The first thing that came to mind is tech support in a public school. You’d be constantly getting called to handle minor emergencies but no one would ever contact you after hours.

      1. Jessen*

        I worked for a transportation provider, in the department catering to people who had more money than sense. Some of them were very special clients indeed – I had to learn how to explain things like “of course if you don’t tell us you changed your flight you don’t get your escort at the gate” in ways that actually sounded acceptable to people who were bothered that they even had to speak to the help in the first place. Or at least not be bothered by their reaction, which is its own skill. But being able to calm people down enough to figure out what they actually need and how that can be addressed within what’s actually possible is its own skill set.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m blanking on what the role would be call, but I’ve seen some development jobs where the focus is on fixing bugs and implementing urgent user requests, rather than on new feature development. We call this stuff “Production Support” at my office, but it’s a shared responsibility among all the developers rather than one person’s dedicated role.

      IT consulting gets a bad name, but I do know some people who really enjoy it. The ones who enjoy it like that it lets them roll on and off a wide variety of projects and do a lot of different kinds of work. A lot of them work for consulting agencies, but a few are independent or run their own business. And both kinds absolutely have to be good at customer service to do their jobs well.

      1. Jessen*

        I could see consulting as long as it was working for a larger business. My big thing is I absolutely 100% require good health insurance and can’t function without regular medical support. Any sort of independent business would just be too risky that I wouldn’t be able to afford sufficient coverage for specialist visits and medications and all that stuff.

  124. Millie M*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with a coworker who interrupts me during meetings? She interrupts me, and then my supervisor listens to her, not me, and I’m getting very frustrated with this.

    1. ten ton trucks*

      Have you spoken with her about it? She may not realize what she’s doing/how often she’s doing it/what affect it’s having. Take her to the side, if you haven’t, and mention that she’s interrupting you a lot and in meetings, you need to finish talking.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Second time: Jane, I am not done.
        Third time: Jane this is the third time I am asking you to let me finish.

        People don’t like to hear that others are counting. I have had such good luck mentioning the number of times I have asked. For example, emails with “second request” in the subject line seem to get attention quicker.
        As usual, not always and not with everyone. However it’s worth a shot.
        Practice in front of the mirror so the sound of your own voice saying these words does not startle you.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Interrupt her right back. “Excuse me Sue, I wasn’t finished with my thought”

      1. Millie M*

        This would work for most people, but she’s like a steamroller. She’ll just keep talking.

        1. CM*

          I would keep talking too, as if she’s not talking.

          I have done this before and found it effective, if it’s this kind of extreme situation where saying, “Please let me finish my thought” doesn’t work at all.

          Then when you and Sue are both done, you can say, “I’m not sure if anyone got that, since it’s hard to hear when two people are talking at once.” Then say it again.

          Yes, it’s awkward, but satisfying.

  125. Anon here again*

    I have a coworker, “John.” I’m quiet and am targeted by my coworkers. John will come over and make noises at/around me. He and another coworker whisper to each other or talk to each other loudly.
    I’ve never said for them to be quiet, so I think that they’re just being annoying on purpose.

    This happened in previous toxic job, so it’s really upsetting me. Is there any way to deal with this?

    1. Argh!*

      Have you talked to your boss about it?

      That would be the mature, responsible, professional way to approach it.

      Another way would be to set up a webcam. You don’t have to turn it on or even plug it in. Just be sure they can see it. That could put a stop to it.

    2. fposte*

      I think it’s fine to ask your co-workers to be quieter if you need them to be quieter or to ask them to take a conversation elsewhere. If you find whispering distracting, it’s okay to say nicely “I appreciate the attempt at quiet, but whispering is actually more distracting! Feel free just to talk in your normal voice.” If they’re obnoxious about those or if the problem persists, you can see if your manager has a suggestion.

      I don’t know if there’s a reasonable way to differentiate making noises around you and making noises at you, though, so long as those noises are workplace-acceptable. It’s also good to be aware of the possibility that your past job has made you hypersensitive to nearby conversations and that your calibration may need to be rejigged a little.

  126. Argh!*

    Evaluation week this week, and I’m not eligible for a raise. The areas where I improved weren’t noted, and areas that have been the same for years are suddenly areas that need improvement. I want to put a goalpost in my office and move it every time I talk to my boss!

    /rant

  127. AwkwardTurtle*

    Is four days of silence normal from a company that verbally offered me a position and then I counter offered through email? I posted this in the previous open thread that I got a verbal offer on 18th, asked for a written offer the same day, got a response on the 21st, counter offered on Monday and got nothing, nada, zilch!

    1. Argh!*

      Yeah, especially because people could be out due to Spring Break. Spring Break is different everywhere, so if everyone’s kids are off work, the people who would answer could be out of town.

      They could also be in negotiations with candidate #2. I wouldn’t worry about four days.

      1. valentine*

        When you asked for a written offer, did you specify you wanted to look over it? Maybe they think “Please email me that” is “Yes, I accept.”

    2. just a random teacher*

      Id suggest sending a follow-up by a different channel if you haven’t heard by Monday – it’s possible your email got eaten by a spam filter, so maybe calling to confirm that they got it and ask if there’s a timeline for response? I’m not in your field, though.

  128. Toxic Firm Escapee*

    I’m wondering what people think of this situation.

    A year and a half ago I was looking for any full time jobs and applying to every admin assistant type posting I could see on craigslist, I was hired as a receptionist at a small paralegal law firm (there was a lawyer there too but the owner was a paralegal and dealing with insurance claims, something paralegals can do where I live.). There were 8 employees, not including the boss who was very hands off and never there. Basically the legal assistants/law clerks did everything.

    Everything was great at first – I was only doing reception and general office admin duties, which kept me busy enough and I was good at. I also started helping more and more with drafting form letters and basic things like that. A few months into it, the owner announced layoffs and laid off two people, one of whom was the person I reported to the most and in the lurch I ended up assuming a lot of her responsibilities because when a client calls, or something needs to be done, well, someone needs to do it and with the owner always gone, it’s either me or no one. A horrible position for a receptionist to find herself in, in retrospect, but I dealt with it.

    I dealt with it for about 9 months, barely coping, probably doing some things wrong but doing my best, basically carrying clients who relied on me because there was no one else to. I want to stress that afaik it was legal – I never assumed lawyer duties, and there was a lawyer on premises for stuff that he had to do, he just dealt with other types of cases mostly, and was swamped as well.

    To put it mildly, it turned into a crap show pretty fast, with all of us overworked and understaffed, carrying too big a caseload for the number of people, and without proper management and oversight.

    I know no one is truly irreplaceable in the workplace but as the person who fielded any phone calls and main inquiries, and who manu staff came to for status updates on various things, who sent and received mail which sounds trivial but with couriers, special parcels, and frequent post office trips it wasn’t, and who was always the person staff came to for help with “just one more basic task”…. I often felt like I was keeping the damn place flowing.

    My boss asked me at one point if I’m committed to staying on, because he had to lay off more people (we were already a skeleton crew!!!) but he’d keep me if I wanted to stay on. I told him yes because I didn’t have any other prospects at the time and wasn’t job searching. It wasn’t a lie. But through extremely good fortune I was offered an interview at a company in the field I was looking to get into in the future through a contact. I gave him a fair warning just before he went ahead with the layoffs – I let him know that I would stay if I didn’t get that job but that I couldn’t pass it up if i did.

    He went ahead with the layoffs, halving the already stretched staff. Of which he basically isn’t part, as I said he’s extremely hands off and barely there.I got the job and left.

    I know it’s a a shitshow over there and I do feel bad for the staff I left behind only feel bad for the clients who were left relying on good legal representation and honestly? They aren’t being given it. Some of them are not in a position to advocate for themselves, or realize that the company isn’t.

    I feel extremely guilty when I think about it and especially certain specific clients that my heart would hurt for.

    I guess there isn’t really a question in here. i just needed to write this out and leave it all behind me. I couldn’t be responsible for the devolution of a law firm when I had no law background and the owner didn’t give a hoot, I just feel bad for the people who are most affected by it now.

    1. Argh!*

      I left ToxicJob that I loved for many years after layoffs and early retirements. As a professional, I was able to negotiate severance pay, and I was able to land a great job…. that has turned toxic after ten years.

      I had some PTSD but no guilt for leaving, and I don’t think you have reason to feel guilty. You stuck it out, were a team player, made a positive contribution, and left for legitimate reasons. OldJob sounds like a sinking ship. If the owner wants it to stay afloat, it’s up to the owner, not the receptionist, to do that.

      Congratulations on CurrentJob. I hope it is rewarding and fulfilling for you.

    2. Toxic Firm Escapee*

      I want to add as an aside that my last full time job before this was even more toxic, with extremely shady business practices, small and private (4 staff incl me) with a boss/coworkers who LITERALLY DAILY and relentlessly spouted homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist and just generally horrific jokes/rhetoric. It really skewed my sense of normal.

      Thankfully I’m in a muchhhh better place now.

      1. valentine*

        Think of it this way: You were the admin for an absentee therapist and, instead of seeing how awful he was to leave you to deal with the clients (I think you should’ve mostly said no/taken messages and escaped ASAP), you are assigning yourself the task of feeling responsible and even guilty for not doing, what, literally as much as you could for them? It was always an on-fire house of cards and it was going to fall with or without you. The only question was whether you’d be in or out when it fell.

        Don’t bail a sinking ship. Fly and be free.

    3. CM*

      “it turned into a crap show pretty fast” — honestly, it sounds pretty typical for a small law firm. Not that every small law firm is like this, but I think lawyers in particular tend to overestimate their ability to run their own firm and their egos get in the way of good management. (I’m a lawyer. Speaking from personal observation.) Meanwhile, the administrative staff is left to clean up a mess that they have very little control over.

      Don’t blame yourself at all. You tried your best in a bad situation. I’m sure at least some of the people who you worked with understood what was happening and were grateful for your efforts.

      I hope the new job is better!

    4. Mazzy*

      What were the layoff for? Usually when there are layoffs, there is some detail about work drying up or not drying up but a big client leaving. I’m not seeing the legitimate need for layoffs in your story.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I bet they were losing customers and losing business so they decided to lower payroll. This sounds like a place the clients figure it out and leave.

      2. Toxic firm escapee*

        The business wasn’t making enough money, that part is legitimate. Part of the shitshow. I don’t want to go into too many boring details but the business being run hands off like a conveyer belt for clients…. well, that happens. We all did as much damage control as we could but with a boss who couldn’t care less seemingly and no proper management…. that’s what happens.

    5. Kat in VA*

      You are not obligated to set yourself on fire to keep others warm. It’s a shit show over there because the owner made it a shit show – you had nothing to do with the outcome.

  129. NicoleK*

    So I’ve posted before about my workplace. Coworker #1 I’m at BEC with. She’s pretty much incompetent at half her job, but she won’t be going anywhere. Coworker #2 is far more competent than #1. But he’s only in the office approximately 34-35 hours a week (the position is Full time 40 hours a week). We all have the same job title and we’re all exempt. Coworker #2 will work 6.5 to 7.5 hours a day. He leaves at 2:30 pm every Monday and Friday. The other days, he comes in at 8 am or 9 am and is gone by 3:30 pm or 4 pm. I do not know if he has a special arrangement with our Boss (highly doubtful). I also do not know if he’s taking PTO on the days that he leaves at 2:30 pm (again highly doubtful). Normally I wouldn’t care because I’m not his boss. However, we’re struggling to meet our team goal because Coworker #1 is incompetent and Coworker # 2 doesn’t put in 8 hours. Ugh.

    1. valentine*

      Go to your manager.

      You: I am at capacity. What is the plan for reaching our team goal?
      Them: 1 and 2 will just have to pull their weight.
      You: What is the contingency plan?

      If manager is happy to miss goals, you’re better off elsewhere. If, however, this job pays so well and has stellar healthcare and you’d be a fool to leave it, accept 1 and 2 as the tax on your bounty.

  130. Sylvia*

    I am in a position where I spend half the time doing what I consider to be my career, and the other half on something that has become a strong need for my organization, but which I dislike. To cope, I try not to think about it much–I just do what’s required of me. The problem is that when people ask me for something specific, like “Did this get from point A to point B last week?” I have absolutely no memory of it. I have to look at my emails or other documents to see if I did something. Usually I have done the task or arranged for someone else to do it, I just don’t remember doing it.

    It’s embarrassing, because my memory isn’t usually that bad. I can remember almost everything that pertains to the “career” part of my job. I am afraid that bosses and co-workers will think there is something wrong with me.

    Does anyone have any tips on how I can improve my memory about the job tasks I don’t like? There are plans to shift these responsibilities to someone else in the far-off future, but for now I need to come up with something that alleviates my “selective amnesia” about that part of my job.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Try tracking them as a “to do” list. If you use Outlook, you can do it as tasks, and if not, you can use an app like Wunderlist or Todoist.

      The action of both noting the task and crossing it off when done will create additional “memory” actions associated with the task and if that’s not enough, at least you’ll have an easy-to-check record.

      1. Sylvia*

        Thank you! I am downloading Todoist now. It looks promising.

        Outlook is a good idea too, it’s just that my organization uses that for email and so the chances of running across a distracting email is high.

  131. GradSchoolBlues*

    I’ve gotten an offer for a funded MS! In a field totally different than my previous one that actually has jobs! Yay!

    Upsides
    -funded!
    -teaching experience
    -new field and career
    -some interest in subject matter (I like it, but I’m not a fanatic, this is mainly about career for me)

    Downsides
    -it’s in a very conservative area and I’m queer (but hetero-cis passing, so maybe it’d be fine?)
    -would have to LDR with my partner of 3 years
    -the town has literally nothing in it. It is the most boring college town I have ever seen – and I’m currently living in what I once thought was a “boring” college town

    I’m so scared though! I really want to restart my career with something new, and an MS seems like a great idea. But I’m really worried it won’t end up being worth it and a long distance relationship will ruin something I value(despite pouring all my time in the past year towards getting into this program). Anyone have advice/support for feeling good about such a big career change?

    1. VAP*

      I’m a fairly femme queer woman who’s moved for work to a lot of areas that I wasn’t so sure about. So far, it’s been fine, but I definitely get that anxiety. I’d investigate how conservative the town itself is–I’ve lived in a couple of places where the county was conservative but the town was more liberal, so it can vary on a pretty fine scale. As someone who also “passes” for straight when I’m not with my partner, I think that if you just kept quiet about it, you’d likely be fine, but risk feeling pretty lonely and isolated. Is there any way that you can find out if there’s a local queer community? Ask current students or something? Personally, I’ve found that if I can find just a couple of other queer folks to hang out with, I can deal with the conservative areas just fine. Without them, it’s harder.

      1. GradSchoolBlues*

        I actually went to the diversity student center when I there, and there certainly is a little community! That’s why I think it will be okay. I’m getting mixed messages on what it’s like for students, I think it depends on how used to the conservative-ness they are, honestly. :\ I suspect it will be awful compared to everywhere else I’ve been, but I’m hoping I can dive into the work and be happy with it!

        The town is definitely very conservative, along with the students… it’s a heavily Mormon area.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Go find the book “Ms. Mentor’s Impeccable Advice for Women in Academia”, and the updated sequel (the first one is a bit dated) – “Ms. Mentor’s New and Ever More Impeccable Advice for Women and Men in Academia” for a book of Q&As on many academia-specific issues (how to dress, how to address inappropriate advances by old professors, etc.) including moving to a very conservative academic environment when you’re not that. I really enjoyed both, and found a lot of her suggestions very good, though I opted not to go into academia and probably would disagree on most issues with the author personally.

  132. Junie B. Jones*

    Anyone else have a boss who is just generally unaware of their actions?

    I recently moved into a new position at work, and thus moved to a new desk. One of my two monitors wasn’t functioning properly, so our corporate office sent me a new one (this was one week ago). I let my boss know it had arrived, and asked for her help getting it set up when was available, but that it was no rush.

    Yesterday, I went to the bathroom (was literally gone 3 minutes), and came back to my manager crawling around under my desk, and computer wires, boxes, and other parts spewed everywhere. She had given me no heads up that she planned on helping me set my monitor up at that time. I just thought it was bizarre that she hadn’t asked if it was a good time for me, if I was busy, when WAS a good time for me, etc. A coworker who was there and saw her start unhooking everything with no warning chuckled and said, “maybe you could have waited for Junie B. to get back to her desk and see if she was free to do this right now.” My manager said, “Oh, no, Junie B. has been wanting me to help with this for a week now, I’ve just been putting it off.” (not really true – it wasn’t a rush, and I hadn’t even brought it up since it had arrived). Luckily, I wasn’t in the middle of something that hadn’t been saved, because she hadn’t bothered checking with me. She didn’t even log off the computer before digging right in, either.

    Anyway…just thought the whole thing was so strange!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Since this is a new-to-you boss, I would just vow to speak more specifically. “Please wait until I am there so we can do X together.” I find that I do have to be a little careful with a new boss because they don’t know me yet. Once they are used to me and I am used to them it gets easier.
      She probably felt bad that she had ignored your request for a week. I don’t think it’s too bizarre but perhaps too enthusiastic.

  133. Ali G*

    Wasn’t there a thread a while back on good v bad icebreakers for meetings? We will have about 40 people and want to do something easy, and good for a group of introverts.

    1. ten ton trucks*

      When you have 40 people, that feels too big to me for an ice breaker question that everyone answers. If you need to do an ice breaker, do you have enough time to do an activity like building a tower of cups?

      1. Catsaber*

        Agreed, I wouldn’t go around a room of 40 people and make each one of them talk. Terrible for time, terrible for introverts. I’d pick some kind of group activity, so if you don’t want to speak up, you don’t have to.

        Maybe try a quick trivia game? Lots of people go bonkers for trivia, and it doesn’t require divulging any personal details.

        1. ten ton trucks*

          Trivia’s really culture-dependent, though, really easy to fall into sports trivia or other kinds, and leave people who don’t know anything about it feeling left out.

          Signed, someone who didn’t know who played in the last Super Bowl, while living in one of the cities that played in it.

          1. Catsaber*

            This is true. General pop culture trivia might work, or like “basics of our country/culture we learn in grade school”.

            1. ten ton trucks*

              I would actually 100% love to brainstorm with my coworkers as we try to list, off the top of our head, every state beginning with M and then give the two letter postal abbreviation.

              We would deduct points from anyone who has to sing a song :P

              2. Ewesername*

                Mother of Dog – I can’t list the provinces of Canada without singing the song. How the heck do you remember all the States?

            2. Havarti*

              Or trivia related to the company if everyone is an employee. Or you could do a game of “what do you have in your pockets” if people will come with purses and wallets. You give each group a list of x number of objects like a paperclip, rubber band, hair tie, Starbucks gift card, store receipt, etc. and the first group to have all or the most before time runs out wins. I saw some of the quietest folks become downright competitive (one person even ran out to their car for a coupon!).

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                A “what do you have in your pockets” scavenger hunt is great for a longer meeting, especially if you randomly assign people to teams.

        2. Ali G*

          Yes! Sorry I should have mentioned – we have an hour and do NOT want to do the “stand up and tell us about yourself?”
          The trivia thing could be interesting. It’s a group of scientists, so we could stay on-topic.

    2. Media Monkey*

      my favourite is to give everyone a piece of paper, get them to hold it behind their backs and tear out the shape of an animal (elephants and giraffes are good as they have distinctive shapes!). put a time limit on it – about a minute is good. give a prize for the best.

      it works well as it is low stakes, no one is ever any good at it, it doesn’t take a lot of explaining and it is quite fun. everyone ends up laughing at the end results so it breaks the ice well.

      2. CM*

        I was also thinking of some low-stakes task. I like this idea and will have to remember it for another time.
        I did a fun exercise at a meeting where we divided up into groups and had to decide on a paper airplane design, then folded the airplanes, and then had a contest to see which group’s could go the farthest.

        1. valentine*

          Tell them now and at the start of the meeting that you’re sparing them an icebreaker. Start and end on time. No waiting for stragglers.

  134. Fuzzy pink*

    Question about portfolios/work samples:
    I’m thinking about looking for a new job and what I do involves some elements of design and writing. I’m expecting that most jobs I apply to or interview for would want to see a portfolio/work sample.
    What from my current job is okay for me to share? I obviously wouldn’t share anything top secret (not that I do anything top secret) – only things that you could readily find on our website or by signing up for our email list or at a public event. Is that’s okay to include in my portfolio?
    Also, all of my work goes through review, of course. And some concepts, color palettes, etc. are suggested or directed by colleagues or supervisors. Is that understood and expected? Or should I only include work that I alone created?
    I guess I could make new work specifically for a portfolio, but that would probably take quite some time, and I do think there is value in showing how I solved real-life problems or worked with the input of a team, instead of making up imaginary assignments that only I have to like.

    1. CliffBars*

      For current work samples, can you check your employee handbook? I think most places are going to be fine with you using them provided you aren’t giving out trade secrets or using work that hasn’t been released yet.

      And I wouldn’t worry about work that has been edited or guided by others, that’s pretty standard. The only exceptions would be work where someone has micromanaged the design (Make the logo 1 inch wide and center it in a green box that is 2×3 inches. The body copy should be Comic Sans, 12 pt., center-aligned with automatic leading…). In that case that’s not demonstrating your design skills/judgement.

  135. Media Monkey*

    i have been offered a new job! i’m very excited as it is a promotion and significant payrise (25% increase) but i am so worried about handing in my notice on Monday (i’m in the UK so notice periods are a proper thing here – i’ll need to work here for 3 months more). my first proper job was a nightmare when i handed my notice in and refused to accept it while they tried to find something that would keep me there (they really can’t do that). my second job i worked across different departments in a big company for over 10 years, and then moved over to my current role (been here 2 years) in a different company as part of a sort of restructure (it is a bit more complicated than that and is EU and industry specific so i won’t go into it). so the only time i have ever handed in my notice it was horrible. any tips?

    1. Catsaber*

      Deep breaths – remind yourself that you are in charge – and whatever they are feeling, it’s just emotions. You’ve gotten a new job. They can’t really do much of anything to you (I’m assuming, I’m in the US). They can make life difficult for a while – but it’s temporary. And most importantly – these are different people. They won’t necessarily have the same reaction.

      3 months is a long time! Is that for finding a replacement and training?

      1. Media Monkey*

        no, they can just give me bad work for the next 3 months (most of my work is bad – that’s why i am leaving), cut down on my flexibility to WFH etc (don’t use that often really) or my boss could be horrible (he’s not great anyway – another reason I am leaving).

        i don’t like my boss but i love my team and the company so i will be sad to go. i just need to do it first thing on Monday am so i don’t stew over it.

        1 month notice is standard for an entry level “career” type job and then it increases as you move up. the reason is to cut down on the time when there will be no one in a role – as it often takes a couple of weeks to get anyone in for an interview and then you have to go through the whole hiring process. it’s unlikely that there will be someone in the role when i leave to hand over to (unless they promote someone internally but i don’t see that happening – i can’t see who would be able to move into the role).

  136. Not the Bumper Sticker Police*

    My troublesome employee was finally sat down and put on a PIP. While her productivity was the main cause, her interactions with other employees were also mentioned. She countered with “I’m not a people person. I like dogs.” And, then she asked to work from home so she wouldn’t be “upset” by the “troublesome things” in our office. HR Manager pushed hard back; no one works from home in our company.
    Grand-Grand Boss, who had returned from a long overseas assignment, was rather put off by the fact that Grand Boss had not dealt with these problems as I and others brought them to her.
    So it looks like there’s head way being made. Not as entertaining an update as I’m sure you wanted, but still an update.

    1. Catsaber*

      I prefer animals over people like 90% of the time, but you still have to treat people with basic kindness! Glad that headway is being made though. So often, nothing gets done.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, “I like dogs” isn’t an out for a failure to perform work tasks, and getting along with your colleagues is a work task.

    2. Havarti*

      LOL! Listen, I’m the sort of person who will ignore all humans if there’s an animal in the same room and that excuse still wouldn’t fly with me, PIPpa. But nice try. At least it’s problem finally being resolved.

    3. LGC*

      I’m…pretty impressed by her boldness. Like, I actually wondered to myself if there was something else going on, because that is TERRIBLE room reading right there.

      I missed the first part, but what were her issues with others? And do you think that your boss will fire her if she has to? (Right now it sounds like she won’t, and also that you and the problem employee Fergusina might be better off parting ways.)

      1. Not the Bumper Sticker Police*

        Here are some links to the other stories. There are probably others, but those were the weeks I remembered to book mark the open thread. Search Friday Open Threads for “Not the Bumper Sticker Police.”

        Basically she’s a pseudo-woke-self-absorbed-flake. I have tried to be understanding, but I am losing the emotional bandwidth for dealing with her antics.

        https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-1-2-2019.html#comment-2329518

        https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-1-2-2019.html#comment-2330048

        https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-15-16-2019.html#comment-2349758

        1. LGC*

          I’m so glad it’s near the end of my day because I’m going to lose whatever productivity I had planned.

          I’m…with the person on the first post that asked why you haven’t fired her yet. (Or more accurately, why your boss hasn’t fired her yet.)

    4. Kathenus*

      I don’t know, I think it is a very entertaining update. I’m enjoying imagining the meeting where she said the “I like dogs” comment, the facial expressions of the others upon hearing it, and the great follow up about wanting a perk that no one else has as a consequence of poor performance. Amusing mental images for me, from afar, so thanks for that :)

    5. KR*

      You know I’m not a people person and the cat sitting on my lap is one of my favorite coworkers. But until my pets and I can start a successful small business together that’s kind of irrelevant. Good luck, hope you can let her go at some point.

  137. Youth*

    My workplace has an ongoing Nerf battle. I generally don’t mind but since moving seats last year I’ve been getting hit in the face a lot more often. Started picking up and squirreling away the projectiles that came into my area about a week ago. I’ve since gathered 25ish. Sigh.

    I’m getting to the final stages of interviewing for a new job. If I do end up leaving, what should I do with them? Throw them out? Ransom them back to the tech bros? Pin them to my empty cubicle as a display of shame?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I mean, I’d probably arrange them into a heart shape and write a sad memorial for myself in the middle, but I have a weird sense of humor.

      How about get yourself a nerf gun and fire every single one straight at the heads of all your coworkers on your last day?

        1. Amber Rose*

          Here marks the passing of Youth
          On to a better place
          With gumdrops, lollipops and rainbows
          And no being shot in the face

    2. Parenthetically*

      Ransom them back to the tech bros! And I’d also say, “Hey, any one of these that hits me in the face gets sold back to the shooter for ten bucks or his enemy for fifteen.”

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I’d give the enemy a discount or two-for-one to encourage discord, but I’m grumpy like that.

      1. Youth*

        Oooh, good question. My desire for joy does outweigh my desire to not appear super salty and/or extra.

    4. Youth*

      AMAZING UPDATE: Two children are visiting my workplace. My project manager gave them each a Nerf gun, led them to the tech bros’ corner, and is, as I speak, having them absolutely bombard the tech bros with ammo.

  138. Comms Girl*

    Probably no one will read this as it will be so far down, my one and only take/advice from this week:

    *Please SHOWER before an interview, peeps.*

    It might seem a given but trust me, after an intern candidate being mentally crossed by my boss and I as soon as he walked in reeking of God knows what, I feel like I have to reiterate this point. (The interview was at 9am sharp, btw).

    1. Rey*

      NNOO!! And if its an internal candidate, you’ll probably cross paths with them again! I’m cringing so much!

    2. mkt*

      But, please don’t shower yourself in fragrance. Be it scented lotions, hairspray, body spray, cologne, perfumes, essential oils, … you name it.

  139. Asking to work Full-Time Remote*

    First time asking for advice but know this group has great insights.

    I’m planning on talking to my boss next week to work remotely full-time (and moving 1,000 miles away). Some background:
    –I’ve been in my position for 4 years
    –Been promoted, received industry accolades, and Employee of the Year
    –My small team has had a LOT of turnover in the last year. Currently my boss has been in her position since the fall, and another coworker started this month. So to say I’m the one with the most institutional knowledge and relationships in our industry is very true.
    –There’s no overlap in our duties, I’m the only one who does what I do.
    –Our company (approx. 50 employees) has other remote workers, though they are teams of one basically, so no need for them to be in the office
    –We already have generous WFH policies (up to 3-4 days a week). My whole team (all THREE of us) are only in the office together one day a week.
    –Our entire office worked remotely a few years ago while we were moving locations, so I have a track record of good performance while full-time telecommuting (though this is before my current boss’s time at the company)

    I guess my question is, how do I broach this topic with my boss in the first place? Those who have asked for full-time remote work, what promises have you made? Those who have supervised people asking for this, what has been beneficial to hear? What compromises did you agree to?

    I’m planning to offer this as a trial run (like through January, starting later this summer), offering to come back to the office once a month (and honestly, have so much work travel coming up that I would not be in the office a lot anyway this summer), and dedicating ample space in my new home to my “home office” (aka not just working from my kitchen table) and getting a co-working space membership.

    Finally, I would like to keep this job, I enjoy it, I’m good at it, and I’m excited about the things we have planned. Thanks in advance for any advice or talking points!

    1. CM*

      I’m not sure from your question whether moving is an option or a certainty. Assuming you would move even if your boss said no, I would present it like this: “I’m planning to move to [place] for [plausible reason – to be closer to family, etc.]. I would really like to continue working here — I enjoy my job and our team, and I’m excited about the projects that we have coming up. I’d like to work remotely after my move. This worked out well when I did it full-time during our office move a few years ago, and right now our team is only in the office together about once a week so I don’t think there will be a negative impact on our work. I’d be willing to come back to the office once a month in person. Do you think this would work?”

      From what you’re saying, this sounds like a win-win and that’s how I would approach it — they don’t want to lose you and you don’t want to lose them, so it’s in both of your interest to find a solution that works.

      1. OP*

        Thanks so much for this language. This also sounds like something I would say, haha. Moving basically is a certainty, the timeline is the only thing that is flexible (if I stay at this job, I’ll move sooner; if I have to find a job in New City, I would stay until I found a job). Appreciate this!

  140. De Minimis*

    Last day at this job. So happy to be out of here.

    Think several are resentful that I’m leaving after just over six months, but I’ve tried to be professional and portray it as moving on to a better opportunity. But yeah, it was a bad work environment. This is a federal agency and I don’t know how many of the federal employees I’ve seen quit during my short time here. One person was hired after I arrived and gave notice the same week I did.

    Also, I don’t think they’re paying me today, so will probably end up filing a wage claim against them [I’m in CA] for waiting time penalties for final wages. Not sure what the rules are…I’m not a federal employee, but the company I work for is operated by a Native American tribe that is out of state. I think normally CA law applies, but it might be complicated by the tribal status [though I think they usually are only exempt from certain laws when it involves employees who are working on tribal land.]

    Happy to be starting my next job next week, away from all of this! My wife says this is the most unhappy I’d been at work in a long time.

    1. Mellow*

      Sounds like you’re doing the right thing for yourself. Best of luck to you in your next position!

  141. Are we having fun?*

    My department head has announced that in addition to working hard, it’s important to also have fun at work. Therefore, she would like the department to come up with a flash mob related to the company’s product.

    This is so not my kind of thing. I’ve only been at this job for a month, so I don’t know if there have been similar “fun” events in the past. I’m really curious to see how this will play out.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Wow. That sounds like a literal nightmare. No advice, only sympathies!

      Gotta love forced fun that is combined with “do something ~wAcKy~ to make our product go ~vIrAl~”

    3. mkt*

      uuugh, noooo!.

      not the type of activity I would call “fun” either. granted, I like singing and dancing… but not forced at work.

    4. Autumnheart*

      Just out of curiosity, what’s the product? I feel like there’s an opportunity to be maliciously compliant.

  142. Work Phone vs Cell Phone*

    Any scripts for pushing back on having to use my personal cell phone as my office phone?

    My new job doesn’t appear to have any desk phones – everyone apparently is using their personal cell phones. This is not something that has been formally stated, I’ve just noticed that sometimes I have a missed call and it will match the phone number in the email signature of someone I’m talking to (in different departments). No one ever leaves a voicemail.

    Besides privacy concerns, I also don’t typically answer my phone during the work day. It is usually on silent and in my desk drawer. I get a *ton* of spam calls, especially by scammers during tax season, so I always ignore unknown numbers.

    My role will partly involve working with clients, and I don’t want my personal number being publicly available. I’m a woman in tech and there are a lot of issues that come with that, especially if you start making waves. I don’t think I’ve ever attended a conference or training where I didn’t develop a shadow or two. In the past not having business cards helped because no one can spell my name right, but I’ll have to start handing out business cards as part of my job, and they will have my full name and personal cell number on them.

    I feel like the business should be covering business expenses and those who don’t want to use their personal devices should have the option of having a phone provided to them. I’ve worked at previous places where your phone calls could come through your computer, so they wouldn’t even have to pay for a full phone. I just don’t know how to articulate a convincing argument. (also am still working on who to have this discussion with since I don’t have a manager yet – hence why people keep calling me)

    1. cactus lady*

      Why not just ask about getting a phone? Phrase it like OF COURSE they will be providing you with a phone, and apparently it got overlooked. If they tell you you’re expected to use your personal cell phone, tell them you have privacy concerns and do not want your personal # publicly available. See what they say.

    2. EmmaBird*

      I like what cactus lady said, in addition, definitely make sure you point out that there are solutions that exist outside of physically buying a phone like you mentioned (coming through the computer). I think a lot of places are unaware that technology like that exists.

      At oldjob one of the departments had a very travel-heavy staff and they were going to insist that people use their personal cell phones and drop the landlines in the main office. Someone eventually figured out calls could be received through the company laptops and that averted some major office drama.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I know a lot of people who have Google Voice numbers for things like this, if they won’t relent. My dentist’s after-hours emergency line is one, my sister had one for the parents of her students, etc.

  143. tkn*

    company is associated with a PAC. they solicit donations from staff and in particular, throw a party every spring specifically for staff donors who essentially get a free afternoon off from work to attend this open bar party/thing. it is today. i hate the whole thing, both the solicitation and the perks. i also know that the vast majority of the PAC’s money goes to candidates i disagree with over fundamental issues unrelated to the PAC’s mission. i’m fine with people donating if they would have anyway, but i don’t understand how many of my co-workers, who i know also strongly disagree with things these politicians do, will still donate just to attend this party and get some time off. there’s nothing i can do about it, but i just need to grumble. i hate being here, working, on this particular afternoon.

  144. stitchinthyme*

    Random bit of happiness: one of the very few people I really can’t stand at work is leaving. Today is his last day.

    This is the guy whom I first met when he came into my office just after I started to yell at me for hanging my towel on one of “his” hangers in the bike room. (My office has a room where people who bike to work can store their bikes while they’re working; it also has a clothes rack with hangers on it that were not labeled in any way so I assumed they were for anyone to use.) I wouldn’t have minded if he had told me politely that they were his and asked me to bring my own, but he wasn’t polite about it, and he knew I was a new employee who’d have no way of knowing these things.

    Later, he yelled at me for introducing a bug into “his” code (which was actually MY code which he had taken over and rewritten). Again, I wouldn’t have minded if he’d been civil when telling me, but in the software business, bugs happen, and I was actually fixing a different bug (of his) at the time.

    So yeah, doing the happy dance at his exit today. So far most of the people who’ve left in the last year were people I actually liked and miss, so it’s nice to have one I can’t stand finally leave. Apparently he was nearly fired for insubordination a while back for yelling at the boss, but it takes a lot to get fired from here, and they kept him on. I doubt too many people will miss him.

  145. SpaghettiSoup*

    Office staffing question.

    I work as an in-house rice sculptor and we have a contractor who works with me about 30ish hours a week. Our work has been increasing and our boss is thinking that we need two full-time staff members, which probably means our contractor would no longer work for us (they aren’t available to go full-time).

    I think part of the issue is when our contractor works remotely, more of the day to day stuff lands on my plate. I have a hard time stopping what I’m doing to call or email our contractor and hand it over—it feels quicker for me to handle it myself, but then I end up loosing time to work on bigger projects.

    I don’t want to lose our contractor because they know how our company wants the rice sculptures to look and they have a background in rice preparation that would be nearly impossible to find in a junior rice sculptor. Plus, I like our contractor and we work together well and I’m going to feel really bad if they loose our contract. BUT, having someone here full time would be pretty awesome.

    Any thoughts on ways to improve our current set up? Or do I need to let go of the idea of retaining our consultant?

    1. CAA*

      Can you hire an admin assistant to handle the day-to-day stuff instead of another full-timer doing the same job you do? It’s hard to make suggestions without knowing exactly what you do, but based on your description of the issue, that’s one thing that occurs to me.

      1. CliffBars*

        That’s the thing, our “admin” tasks would still require specialized knowledge, so even an entry level position will cost us more than an entry level general office admin (based on the salary ranges I’ve seen here). I don’t think my boss can make a case to hire a full-time position and keep our contractor, even if the full-time person had a much lower starting salary.

        1. valentine*

          Let go of the retention scheme. Try to calculate how much the extra 10 hours and not losing time to handover will save you and look forward to having a new person. If stuff can’t wait for contractor to return to the office and people cannot contact him themselves, let the stuff pile and hand it over before you go to lunch and before you leave for the day or at likewise logical times. But absolutely stop doing their work yourself.

  146. Turbovicki*

    Hello hello,

    Might be too late here, but! I need some opinions. I started my job in the fall, and while I enjoy it…I have had..four managers since starting. This amount of turnover is quite frankly startling, especially since they are in senior roles, and I am wondering how to feel about this. I was sold on work-life balance and….there isn’t much. We’re all too busy, regular 12 hour days and working weekends, and there is no one to really discuss this with because everyone is equally overwhelmed. Is it unreasonable to feel….lost? I am not sure what to do.

    2. EmmaBird*

      So I’ve only had one job similar to what you describe and it never got better. I stuck around for five years as people around me told me that it was just a temporary issue (the turnover, long hours, etc)– it was not.

      That having been said, if you’re not in a position where you can change jobs relatively soon, make sure you are clear with every incoming manager what your situation is and it might at least keep things status quo for you. It’ll be exhausting to have to lay out and explain why/how your workload is too high but at least they’ll know where you stand. I made the mistake of not bothering with a couple of my managers and my situation only got worse during their short tenures.

  147. Astrea*

    I think my job interview went well. They talked about what they need and I was always able to tell them why I could provide it, as evidenced by my experience and demonstrated attitude. I naturally worry about what I should’ve/could’ve said or done, but less so than after some interviews. Now I’m composing a thank-you/follow-up email.

    But I’m not sure I want the job after learning more about its duration, its dates and times (which have implication for my commuting challenges and socializing opportunities), and the fact that I would spend a lot of time alone because only one of the people sharing my duties would be on the job at a time. It’s a type of work I want to do and have trouble finding local openings for, and an entry point into the major local employer, hard to justify rejecting after years of underemployment. But in my experience, it’s painful to cut off pursuit of a job I wanted (because I couldn’t live in that area) but worse to accept, endure, and resign from a job I never really wanted. So I haven’t decided what I’ll do if the job is offered to me.

    Then I was notified of yet another opening for a true dream job* in a distant city, one I’ve applied for multiple times over the years, most recently three months ago, despite my undesirable non-local status, the difficulty of relocating at short notice, and my relative paucity of the supervisory experience they “prefer.” Applying for that job is always a miserable experience because I want it and it feels unattainable (and I love where I live now), but passing up any opportunity to do so is hard to justify.

    *A job that I’ve done at a lower level, in the same institution, and continued to love.

    1. valentine*

      I don’t understand why being unemployed is better than not pursuing a job in a place you can’t (won’t?) love. I mean, how is it even in the running?

      If you’d be enduring a job and it’s worse than unemployment, why interview?

      You sound like you lack confidence and are casting the widest net, then self-rejecting on as many fronts as possible. If you want to live somewhere else, can you focus on moving there, then job-searching? If you love where you are, can you decide moving’s not an option and narrow your job search?

      Take the path that’s going to make you happy for about a year, especially if you do a big move. (This doesn’t mean stay if you’re miserable. No hairshirts allowed.)

      1. Astrea*

        I do lack self-confidence and I do self-reject a lot. But I think I’m casting a net too narrowly, not too widely. Multiple disabilities make a number of basic tasks (driving motor vehicles or or to a job, supervising groups of children in outdoor settings, heavy lifting, spending all day at a computer *or* on my feet) physically un-doable for me, so I seldom see an open job that looks doable and desirable enough for me to apply. Also, my work experience is fairly narrow and I’ve had little success in seeking guidance on identifying fields where my many tranferrable skills would give me an advantage. So I can’t readily get most of the low-level jobs that are available everywhere, and moving to a very expensive big city without a job would be highly risky. I do love where I live now, and feel I would only move for a solid dream job in a place I know to be logistically livable for a non-driver.

        Regarding the potential job I’m currently ambivalent about, it’s in one of my desired fields and has some highly appealing aspects. I became more ambivalent about it *after* the interview where I learned more about its less appealing aspects, as described above.

        1. Astrea*

          Also, I’m currently underemployed at a very part-time job and have disability-based government support in a livable community. So I very thankfully don’t have the desperation of unsupported unemployment and can afford to be choosy.

  148. SquigglyPanda*

    Is bopping your head and lip syncing at your desk unprofessional? I have Samsung Buds, and people can’t tell I’m listening to music. It’s led to a few awkward moments.

    If it is unprofessional, what is the level of music enjoyment I can display?

    1. fposte*

      Depends on the workplace. The most conservative level is don’t make responses to things only you can hear; it’s also worth considering if it looks like the music is the main thing in your brain while you’re on the clock and if your movements are distracting or confusing in other people’s eyelines. If those aren’t a factor, then I’d say silent responses are okay but no singing or tapping unless you’re truly alone.

      1. SquigglyPanda*

        Everything is silent. I dislike it when people tap their pens, and I have a terrible singing voice. So it’s basically head bops and passionate lip sync while making faces at my computer screen. Hopefully no one can tell unless they’re directly looking at me.

        1. fposte*

          In a lot of places that’s fine, and I’m sure your computer monitor is appreciative :-). Just be aware that if you’re in their field of vision, not just looking directly at you, head-bobbing has distraction potential.

          1. SquigglyPanda*

            True! I’m sitting in a corner today. (We have open seating.) I just need to remember that when the light next to my camera is on, someone can see me.

            1. valentine*

              Limit yourself to quietly bouncing a single leg, if you’re ok with being seen as nervous or impatient. Otherwise, do not outwardly respond to the music. I would think you were angry at whatever’s on your screen. Are you sure you’re not humming?

    2. LGC*

      Depends. I’d say you’re fine if you’re not making loads of noise or you’re not wildly thrashing about. But this is a “culture” thing – if your workplace is more restrained, hold back.

      (For what it’s worth, one of my employees sings to herself often. She has MANY talents, including excellent production. Singing is not one of them.)

  149. restingbutchface*

    Darn, I’m probably too late for anyone to scroll allll the way down :)

    So, I have two weeks left at work. It’s not my choice to leave but it’s not possible to stay. I need another job NOW. I have applied for over 40 in the last couple of weeks and had two unsuccessful interviews. I literally don’t have any savings and far too many dependents for a woman my age (long story).

    How do I not go absolutely insane? I am panicking to the stage of vomiting every day. I don’t know how to cope with this. Help?

    1. Amber Rose*

      First, breathe.

      Second, schedule a few minutes every day to just breathe and relax.

      Third, download every free resource and read every blog Alison has on kick-ass cover letters and resumes and revamp that thing until it shines like diamond.

      Fourth, keep breathing. Panic is not your friend right now. You need to be as clear headed and rested as possible to tackle a job hunt.

      1. valentine*

        Can your dependents live with friends or other relatives until you sort yourself? Can you rehome pets? Go after any relevant child support.

        Craigslist gigs. A cleaning company. Online tutoring. Crowdfunding.

        You’re going to need a long-term plan in order to avoid this in future.

    2. Ptarmigan*

      That’s so hard, I’m sorry. Are there temp agencies in your area? Are you able to work at a retail job?

    3. The Doctor is In*

      Hope you have applied for unemployment and any other benefits you can get. Hang in there!

    4. Bismuth*

      Find out about social services you might need, and apply for them. Now. SNAP (food stamps), food pantries, bill payments, rental assistance, free school programs, etc. Gather all the applications and your paperwork, budgets, etc. so you have everything in one place, then start in, big stuff first (unemployment/Compass/health benefits). It can take a long time for stuff to come through. DO NOT WAIT until you can’t afford to buy groceries that week. If you need it, you’re prepared. If not, you withdraw your applications. Don’t feel ashamed — these agencies are there for a reason. We give when we can, we take when we need it, and we’re all stronger for it.

      Gather lists of therapists or free fun stuff or whatever you need to keep you sane. This is an awful time, I’m sorry. I hope something comes through soon.

    5. Middle Manager*

      Sorry! That sounds scary. I second signing up with a temp agency. It doesn’t have to be forever. Maybe just a bridge to something long term. You could also think about gig work to cover the transition.

      Also, if you need help, ask. It’s okay to need something like a food bank or food stamps to help stretch resources while you’re working on getting back to work.

  150. agnes*

    I love my job. Just sayin’ ! After spending too long in a job that did not fit, I finally landed where I should have been all along. Sending encouragement to all those who aren’t there yet. It took me some time, but it finally happened.

  151. Mud Duck*

    My question is a bit long, but feel context is important. Thank you if you take the time to read it.

    I work at a university. Last fall, I was notified that my position of almost 6 years was being eliminated due to shortfalls in enrollment which affected the budget. I was given a generous amount of time to find a new position and had my director and Human Resources fully behind me in finding a new position on campus. I have happily been in my new position since.
    Though I was shocked at the news, I accepted it graciously at the time and after. My response was mild and literally “this is not great news.” In a conversation a day or two later, I told my director I understood it was a business decision and it was a good one that I couldn’t disagree with.
    I’ve recently learned that that same director was asking around the department if anyone knew my husband and if he had a tendency toward violence and should the director be alerting security to the potential of violence on campus once my husband learned of my job elimination. There is nothing in my history or his that indicates potential for violence; we are quiet, stable people who enjoy gardening, our dog, and outdoor sports – nothing questionable, nothing with red flags. The only thing I can think of is my husband is a blue collar worker and in his ignorance, my former director is equating blue collar workers with potential for violence.
    I am shocked and humiliated, but also incensed at his ignorance and discriminatory attitude toward blue collar workers. By asking this question around the department, I feel he has smeared my reputation and my husband’s. I do not know if he filed a report with security, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. ? I just came from a meeting with Security (about FERPA) and wondered the entire time if security was looking at me wondering about potential violence issues.
    I am upset that our names have been related to potential violence anywhere, particularly on a university campus. How do I deal with this, do I have any options going forward, or do I simply have to live with the harm to my and my husband’s reputation? I also don’t want to cause problems for the person who alerted me; I know this director has been punitive and petty with his reports in the past.

    1. fposte*

      I’m sorry–it sounds like you handled a hard time with grace, and I’m glad you’re happy in a new position.

      What your director did was seriously out of line, but my guess is that there’s little or no harm to your reputation here, and that any direct action you could take would be likelier to raise the risk of reputational harm than to lower it. Even if he did report his concerns to security, security at a university will get a lot of unfounded reports, and unless he made stuff up about your husband making threats, they’ll have given this the thought it deserves. I really would let this one go. (Or, if you’re me, have one last fantasy of driving my car over him while saying “*Now* who’s a threat, you stupid sexist!” and then let it go.)

      1. Mud Duck*

        I appreciate your response, and you have touched on one of my fears should I pursue – that it could increase reputational harm. However, I’m also concerned that should a report have been made it could, as EmmaBird said below, balloon into something more. I have much to think about and really appreciate your point of view, which I’ll be seriously considering.

        1. fposte*

          If you have the kind of HR that you can talk to, it likely wouldn’t hurt to do that (I’m in higher ed, and I don’t have that–they mostly handle changes of law and policy). But I suspect this is one of these situations where you may have to make your own peace without getting external guarantees. And honestly, I don’t see balloon potential here: you had an unprofessional director dealing weirdly with his awkwardness about laying you off and there was no substantiating behavior to report.

    2. EmmaBird*

      Not sure how reassuring this will be but I work in higher ed for a university and between the two departments I’ve worked in, plus the fact that my sister works in higher ed and a very close friend of mine does too (in both big and small universities) I think you can rest assured that anyone overhearing that is likely immediately dismissing it.

      It sounds like this director has a reputation that precedes itself since you mentioned him being punitive and petty. Meanwhile, you are clearly valued and valuable based on what you’ve said of being transferred into a new role. If you’ve mentioned your husband and your mutual hobbies in the past I think people would be stunned at the suggestion out of nowhere that he might be abusive toward you and dismiss it outright. I know higher ed environments get a lot of crap for being extremely dysfunctional and that’s true to an extent, but any kind of rumor on that level would be taken for what it is in the places I’ve worked. Especially since your former coworkers worked with you and got to know you for 6 years!

      I’ve never dealt with something like this myself but if it were me I would go to HR with this and at least get it documented should this balloon into something more somehow. You should be able to ask them not to take specific action if you don’t want to do that– but it can’t hurt to have a written record with them that you’ve heard this rumor and that your wellbeing and the university’s is not at risk.

      1. Mud Duck*

        First, I should clarify that the “fear” my director had was not violence at my expense but at his. I honestly don’t believe that he sees me as a real person or cares enough about me to even consider how I might be affected; this belief has been backed up by previous actions.
        You’ve given me a lot to think about and consider. I will be taking the weekend to make a decision on what to do. I have been planning to go to HR to review my file, but I am now leaning toward contributing a written record about this rumor. I’ve also advised the person who told me and clarified that if this is my course of action, I will not be naming names except the director.
        Thank you for giving me another perspective; it is really appreciated.

    3. Drax*

      If I worked with someone who I’d known for 6 years and out of the blue the boss started asking questions about violence with jobs and that crap, I’d look at the boss like he had 6 heads. It’s not your reputation that would be smeared but his. Especially if he’s doing it because your husband is ‘blue collar’. That’s so ignorant it reflects poorly on him not you.

      And if this was last fall, I don’t think anyone is thinking about it anymore beyond “Boss is a bit out to lunch, look what he said about Mud Duck’s husband”. That’s something I’d file away about crazy boss, not you.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      How odd. Is it possible that the director has been threatened with violence in the past when a position was eliminated? Does he even know what your husband does for a living?

      1. Mud Duck*

        My husband asked the same question. If he has listened to me over the past 6 years, he would know what my husband does. And I think he has listened because he has spent years puzzling over the fact that husband and someone long respected in our academic environment are fishing buddies, as in why on earth would (name) be hanging out with a blue collar worker?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Ah. Just a jerk, then. I wouldn’t worry about it. If he’s truly that much of a jerk, everyone he talked to isn’t thinking “oh noes, potential violent blue collar guy!” They’re thinking “sounds like something you’d worry about, you jerk.”

    5. LCL*

      Bigots gonna bigot. You can’t fight them all. If you don’t report to this jerk anymore, it’s best to let it go.

    6. WellRed*

      Please, let it go. It’s odd, for sure, but you don’t know that he was equating blue collar with violence, nor do you know if he actually filed a report (can you file a report when there’s not an actual threat to report?). You don’t know that there’s harm to your reputation. Are you high profile enough for people to know who you are, or care? (If you are high profile, like regularly quoted in the media or something, maybe you could address it briefly with HR, as a just in case). If anything, the people he asked about your husband probably thought he was odd and it hasn’t impacted their view of you at all.

      If you do feel a need to pursue this, I wouldn’t worry about outing the person who told you. Rumours get around so you could have heard it “somewhere.” good luck!

      1. valentine*

        I think you’re jumping to being defensive about the blue-collar bit. Did Director say, “Why would Joe hang out with a plumber?” It’s fine to wonder how people met or to find it odd that Joe befriended his plumber. I think he’s far too self-absorbed to remember details about your husband or life.

        When I thought he was worried about you, I thought it good that he made inquiries. His concern for himself seems sexist and antiquated, but so what? “I hope her husband doesn’t beat me up” is a dumbass thing to say and how much damage can he really do? Does he have a photo of or did he leave hubs’ name with security? Are people going to boycott your husband’s business? Even if people care what he thinks and believe your husband will be asking him to take it outside, what is your goal here? You want to report that he said stupid, possibly sexist, things to x people, including security. I’m all for reporting, in general, but only do this if you’re certain of your source and you think you can get what you want or the reporting itself will suffice. (Note that keeping your source anonymous may make it difficult to investigate, though knowing which security person he spoke to will help.)

  152. Alli*

    A brief question: Does anyone have advice for navigating “coming out as transgender in the workplace”? I live in an area with good worker protections, but would welcome input from anyone who’s been in this position or a similar one.

    1. Drax*

      Not personal experience – but Buzzfeed actually did a video on it awhile back. If you look it up on youtube it should come up

    2. Lithic*

      The first link is a blog that has some posts about the bloggers wife transitioning at work. Will need to search the archive though.
      Second is how Teck supported two of their workers who transitioned. Very self congratulatory of course but good things are possible even in places you may not expect. Congrats on taking this step! I hope everyone is supportive and excited for you

      https://www.amandajetteknox.com/?m=1

      https://www.teck.com/news/connect/issue/volume-19,-2017/table-of-contents/a-supportive–workplace-for-everyone

  153. Baby Lawyer*

    Getting far down, but hope springs—

    tl; dr: Can I balance articling/practice and academia, somehow, without losing my mind? Should I try and see what happens?

    This is a bit of “my tiara is too small”, but I’m being torn in a few directions, in terms of long-term plans, and would appreciate other perspectives:

    Direction 1)
    I have articles lined up to start in August, at a firm where I summered in 1L and 2L. (NB: This is non-negotiable, I’ve signed a contract, I’m doing it, no way in the world I’d back out.) They know me, I know them, I know the rhythms of the place, I am an excellent fit for their quite niche work, I find it intellectually satisfying, it’s well-compensated, I have managed a solid work-life balance there (articles may be different, but still). I can go on, but basically, awesome job I’m looking forward to and could see myself doing long-long-term.

    Direction 2)
    This year I’ve been doing an internship in a similar, though slightly broader, niche. I like this kind of policy-oriented work, and fit well with the org’s culture and personalities. I’ve been making really good connections, I’ve had fantastic opportunities, I feel like I’m making an impact on much bigger things than at the private practice firm. I’m neck deep in a giant project there right now, and would like to stay involved a bit. The project’s time-limited by nature, but even if I stayed through til August, I wouldn’t make it to the end. [I do not want to stay through til August, certainly not any kind of full-time / regular thing; I have promised myself July.] I do not think I flatter myself if I say they would have me back, any way that would work.

    Direction 3)
    This year, owing to awesome support from supervisors, some of my academic work has really started to take off. One paper in particular has a significant future, if we can get it out. It has very much a labor of love (and of labor) and I want to see it through. There’s also the potential to build it out in lots of directions; I don’t want to surrender all of that to others. My supervisor there has also been nudging me strongly towards (eventual) grad studies and I’ve discovered, to my regret, that I’d really enjoy academia, bureaucracy notwithstanding. I would very much like to pursue this in the long-long-term.

    Direction 4)
    I have burned out before. It’s possible, actually, that I’ve been low-leveled burned out for nearly ten years and that it is my ground state. Whether or not that’s the case, I cannot afford to take on too many things and actually flame out. (Afford either in the sense of debt or the sense of my tenuous sanity.)

    I don’t know what exactly I’m asking for here, but I’m hoping that even writing it out will help me analyze my options. My supervisor was asking just yesterday how much I’m hoping to stay involved with the big paper, and I don’t know what to say. I will likely have to cut something out of my life, but I do not know what–and I do multiple things outside of school and work (community / personal enjoyment), as well, and would rather not surrender them either. Any thoughts would be welcome.

    1. Reba*

      Maybe it could be helpful to think of things going in phases, rather than all at once? It feels like everything is happening all at once, and that you have to keep doing it to be able to keep that window open…. but you could maybe be more strategic about how you direct your attention. Justify this to yourself by knowing that you are likely doing better work that way.

      Like, “Now I’m in internship; internship will end.” “Fall is the time when I’ll prioritize articles” (I frankly have no idea what this means) “Once I’ve gotten a bit settled in Job (right?) Spring is when I’ll get back into Big Paper more and hope to submit it by Summer (plan with coauthors about what parts you’d like to work on)” “Within 5 years I’ll be back in Internship Niche.”

      If you are at burnout risk. Do Not. Go. Into academia. Unless you can think of it as a weird, hard vacation you can take to pursue your interests, not a career path in itself. I mean, you already know grad school is hard and jobs are dodo birds, just felt I had to add this Obligatory Dire Warning! :)

      1. Baby Lawyer*

        Thanks, that framing’s helpful! I think I need to just sit down and figure out exactly what I’m doing and what I want to do when, and where I can relax things.

        And sorry–“articles”/”articling”=”First Job Out of Law School”, before you’re allowed to be a lawyer on your own.

  154. Ruby Thursday*

    I’m a bit frustrated with someone from an internal department and am not sure how much detail to share with my manager when we have a 1:1 on Monday.

    This person was meant to approve a very simple thing for me this week. She took ages to get back to me, mentioned she had follow-up questions and asked “have you looped in the kettle team?”

    I explained that as I am part of the tea and toast department I was working with the kettle. That was on Wednesday and she didn’t get back to me. On Thursday she phoned a manager in my team to ask if they were aware of what I was planning (the manager explained that we are part of the same department, as I had). She then went on leave without bothering to get back to me.

    As I was going to miss my deadline I asked someone else in her team who got back to me confirming that the thing was fine. Which was all they ever need to do.

    Would you share all the detail about things like randomly calling up managers in a fairly adversarial way? Or just say they’ve been difficult to work with? (This isn’t the only time they’ve caused any of us issues…)

    1. MsM*

      I’d explain what happened without attempting to pass judgment on what it might mean: “So, I had a bit of an odd experience with the approval process for Project last week. [Insert recap here.] Do you have any insight into why this might have been an issue, or what I can do to avoid a repeat?”

      1. Holly*

        I 100% agree. Frame it as “What can I do in the future to avoid this situation?” but tell it exactly as you just did – your manager could put 2 and 2 together.

  155. Trapped*

    Just need to vent about this. My office mate Kevin is a slob. His desk is filled with old food items, papers, and just random junk. It drives me crazy. He also has a tendency to smell, of the armpit and nether region (can be smelled when he gets up from his desk) varieties. He chews with his mouth open and has frequent, non-work related, conversations with his friends during the day. We work in the South, in a very hot and humid city, and I am dreading the summer months.

    I’m a very tolerant person but this week was just awful. Kevin brought in an orange juice on Monday for breakfast. It has been sitting on his desk since then and has started to separate/disintegrate. I don’t understand why he just doesn’t throw it out. I wanted to throw it out on Wednesday but didn’t want to touch his stuff and start drama. He got a package on Wednesday and just emptied the contents of it in the middle of the office. I had to ask him to move it from the middle of the floor. He has so much random mierda crammed in on his side of the office and it disgusts me. He also smelled really bad this week. Every time he would get up from his desk, I’d be hit with a whiff of the smell. There have been complaints about Kevin before but I doubt they were addressed. I want to approach him but also don’t have the energy to deal with him/the situation if my speaking up is not well received.

    Ugh…I’m just annoyed. Rant over.

    1. EmmaBird*

      Ugh– so, this might not be the most professional/appropriate way to handle it but if the food stuff happens relatively infrequently I’d be disposing of it and making up various logical reasons for doing so (there was a fly in it, it was beginning to mold, etc). If he went to a manager or something over that you’d come out of that situation just fine IMO. *Especially* if these things are just chilling on the top of his desk in plain view.

      Alison has definitely shared some good scripts about dealing with people that smell before in the past though– I can’t remember them offhand but it’s worth a search of her site if you want to try bringing it up with a manager again!

      1. Trapped*

        Thank you; I will consider just throwing the forgotten food items out next time.

        And thanks for the tip on addressing the BO. I’ll look through the archives because I’m getting to my limit with it. I just need to muster up the mental energy to address it.

    2. irene adler*

      Surprised the cleaning crew hasn’t noticed this and either taken steps to remove the bad food or asked for permission to do so.
      Do the building owners utilize pest extermination services? They will certainly point out that this is quite the attraction for bugs and requires remediation. Course, they need to be alerted to the situation first.

      Sounds like a well-aimed fan pushing his ‘scent’ back at him is in order as well.

      1. Trapped*

        Yes, we have a pest service that comes though I’m not sure of when There is an email account to request maintenance services and I’m wondering if that’s the best place to inquire about pest control.

        As far as our cleaning services, they will only empty the trash and vacuum (when requested) for private offices. I’ve made friends with one of the ladies that cleans and will talk to her as well.

        I like the fan suggestion and I think I can request one from the Facilities department. I will definitely need it.

        1. just a random teacher*

          Find out if your company has policies Integrated Pest Management or more generally not attracting bugs by leaving food out. Every place I’ve worked in the recent past has had an IPM policy that talked about not leaving food or excessive clutter out, so if your company is also doing this and has a way to sign your office up for an IPM evaluation, that might be a direction you could take. I’m not sure if you can do that if you haven’t actually gotten any pests yet. (We have constant teeny little black ants, and nothing we’re allowed to use works to get rid of them completely, but if someone was leaving food out that actively attracted them that wouldn’t be tolerated by Facilities (or by our Office Manager, who would be all over getting that stuff thrown out ASAP as part of the overall War on Ants).)

    3. Bob Bob Bobbin*

      Can you request to be moved to a different office/or to a desk further from Kevin?
      A small fan blowing gently towards Kevin’s desk may keep the smells away.
      Can you tell your supervisor that you are afraid of the bugs Kevin’s food messes may attract now that it is getting warmer.
      Does your company have housekeeping/cleaning services? Ask if they are able to vacuum your office.

      1. Trapped*

        Kevin and I are in similar roles but on different teams so we don’t have the same boss. In my check-in this week I wanted to bring it up with my boss, but felt like I was being whiny and a complainer. But this it is getting a bit ridiculous. I like your suggestion about possible pest brought on by his mess and that may be the angle to begin the conversation.

        It’s bad guys. I’m embarrassed when my colleagues stop by my office because of the smell and clutter. My team has been really busy this week and my boss has had to sit with me for a few tasks this week. I was so embarrassed each time she came in. I could see her eyeing the mess with a look of disgust. Even though I know she knows the mess is not mine, I still felt bad. Ugh.

          1. valentine*

            nether region (can be smelled when he gets up from his desk)
            Oh, man. Oh, man. You are a living saint.

            immediately:
            ~Apply Chapstick under your nose. I’ve read Vivaporú also works.
            ~Handkerchief soaked in mint or just a small tube of toothpaste to sniff as as needed. Coffee or tea may also work. (These are scents that defeat sniffer dogs. No offense.)
            ~Autoscent. (Or would that just give you scented funk?) (We need a One Drop for the air.)

            for the long term:
            ~Ask to be moved. I assume you’d prefer a quick escape to having Kevin moved and the place bleached.
            ~Ask your manager to speak to his. You need Kevin to stop hoarding (including funk) and to deodorize. It’s just that simple.

            1. valentine*

              Don’t clean up after him, at all, ever.

              If his crap smells or attracts bugs, report that. But you want to be seen as someone who seeks out or inquires about custodial service, not Kevin’s personal cleaner.

        2. knork*

          I think you can definitely mention your colleagues. “I speak to coworkers in my office quite frequently, and I hate having to invite them into what you have probably noticed is kind of an unpleasant space.”

  156. jobhunter2*

    i posted here about two weeks ago frustrated that my job search was going nowhere, but now i have an interview on monday for a position that seems like it could be a great fit :) i’m prepping my ass off. wish me luck!!

    2. Jamie*

      Good luck! I was out of work for several months last year and just when I was getting really scared I’d somehow become unemployable I ended up in rounds of interviews for three jobs. Sometimes timing isn’t easy to understand!

      Fingers crossed for you.

  157. Cheesecake2.0*

    Anyone here adjuncted at a university while also working full time at that same university? I work as staff at a university and we’ve recently started a new degree program. I have a master’s in that specific field and my boss told me recently that if I ever want to teach a class or two for that program, they would take me in a heartbeat! For now I said no, but am curious what it would be like.

    1. The curator*

      Yes. But remember all the prep, grading and student condults are not on work hours and you might not get paid until you turn in your grades.

    2. fposte*

      Yup. It’s hard work on top of a full-time job, especially if you’re creating a course from scratch; I’d budget for 10 extra hours a week (on top of the actual course time) and be pleasantly surprised if you got in at 6. However, it can also be really interesting and rewarding.

  158. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    Weird Question: I just applied for a job at a very large university with a very large healthcare system (like, they own most of the hospitals/clinics in the state.) Their HR software has a policy that you can apply for multiple jobs, but you may only have 1 resume and 1 cover letter on file at a time.

    How common is this? And is it possible to skip a cover letter in the future to be able to apply for multiple jobs?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I also work for a large state university (not as large as your university) and I am applying for other jobs.
      This is not normal. We do have a *default* resume and cover-letter but you can always upload a new one.

      You said, “at a time”. Can you apply for job1 exit out, get back in and change your resume and cover letter, and then apply for job2?

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        It said, “You may only have 1 resume and 1 set of supporting documents on file in the system at a time.”

        1. valentine*

          Is there a third option, like other materials, where you can upload a job-specific cover letter? Maybe call it a note.

        2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

          Yes, but can you delete and re-upload the documents for each job. That is what I have to do.

    2. Murphy*

      I feel like that means they’ll only save one for you for future use. Once you submit an application, you should be fine to change out your cover letter/resume to submit new ones.

    3. Wake up!*

      I actually saw something like this recently. The FAQs clarified that you really can have only one cover letter–so if you apply for multiple jobs the cover letter has to be general enough to apply to all of them. I was really shocked because this flies in the face of everything I know about customizing cover letters to the position (and some of these jobs are very high-level where you would truly need to customize a great deal).

  159. apopculturalist*

    So…I’m struggling. My job of 5+ years has been great in a lot of ways — they hired me after I was fired (for justifiable cause, though my circumstances were by fueled by mental health issues), supported my professional growth, etc. The lines between coworker/friend are blurred here tremendously, which clouds my judgement. In all, they’re generally nice people, and we all have great work chemistry.

    But…there’s a lot of other stuff going on too. I’m underpaid. There’s no growth unless my immediate manager leaves. (Typical for my industry, but as a relatively young professional, I feel stagnant.) I’ve experienced blatant sexism/discrimination under the guise of my male supervisors “caring” or “protecting” me. (Infrequently, but it’s there.) It’s a boys club where the guys go on golfing excursions and the women are never invited. My boss’s super conservative leanings sometimes influence our work, and if I try to push back, it’s clear he views me as a shortsighted “liberal snowflake” type.

    (Short version of one such occasion: I work at a magazine, got a submission on women in the industry, and my boss vetoed it because it was “too political,” even though it was not in any way. I ran it by others to confirm. He also once insinuated a coworker liked a job candidate because she’s a “liberal” and the job candidate was black.)

    I’m finding myself having breakdowns every Sunday, and I’m drinking as a coping mechanism. My fiance and as of today, my doctor, say this work environment is not a great situation for me. But I’m having a hard time leaving.

    My immediate supervisor often discusses how our company is a great place to work and implies that people who have left are making a mistake. I’m risk-averse as it is, and I’m comfortable here. I fear leaving and going to a new job that makes my life a living hell, like my old job did. And generally, I feel like my boss will take it as a personal insult if I leave.

    That’s a lot, I know. But if anyone has any encouraging words, I’d appreciate it.

    1. Mary*

      If you’re having breakdowns every week and drinking to cope, it sounds as if this job is already making your life a living hell. Work does not have to be like this or your last job. People move on to new jobs, if a boss is offended that is their problem.

    2. CAA*

      You need to leave. You say that you are risk averse, but this job is creating health risks for you! Having weekly breakdowns and drinking to cope with the stress are not good for you, mentally or physically.

      I know you like your coworkers; they have done some good things for you professionally and your also friendly with them. But at least some of them are also sexist bigots, and your immediate supervisor takes business decisions too personally. People are not all one thing, so it’s entirely possible that someone who was kind and supportive when you needed help can also be awful in other ways. Don’t let your feelings of indebtedness hold you back now and potentially lead to a relapse of your earlier mental health problems.

      Start a job search. You know what a bad work environment looks like, so trust yourself to recognize one if you interview at a place that would be a living hell. When you find a good situation and are ready to move on, do some role playing with your fiance or a friend and practice resigning to your boss before you do it. Keep it short and sweet, no excuses or explanations, just the facts of when you’re leaving.

      Good luck!

    3. MsM*

      Your boss takes it as a personal insult that you think the readership might want to see interesting women highlighted from time to time. I honestly wouldn’t be too concerned with upsetting him by taking a job that offers you things you can’t get here.

      Also, remember: actual friends will want you to do well and be happy. Fellow professionals will understand that people move on. If these folks can’t handle your departure in one of those two ways, that’s all the more reason to try and extricate yourself from this dynamic.

      Finally, and most importantly, remember that the job search is a process. You don’t have to take the first thing that comes along. You don’t have to apply to the first listing that comes along. You just need to stop being afraid that what’s out there is going to be worse than your current dissatisfaction, and see for yourself.

    4. WellRed*

      I am taking you at your word that these are nice people. Because I see sexism and racism and lack of growth and underpaid and not much else.
      When you are having Sunday breakdowns it’s time to get out.

    5. Havarti*

      Your immediate supervisor is full of dog droppings so take anything he says with a grain of salt. Let me tell you about my first job out of college – I was hideously overworked, underpaid. Had chest pains from the stress I was under. I slept away my weekends in a fog of depression, crawling out of bed at 4pm only to eat and then crawl back into bed. Boss nearly brainwashed me into staying, telling me the skills I had were useless and couldn’t go on my resume. I almost stayed but my family pushed me to quit and thank goodness they did.

      We start to believe the bad stuff is normal. We become comfortable with things that are terrible for us. We get kicked and told we should be grateful. An abuser will always tell you leaving is a mistake because they don’t want you to leave – who would they get to abuse then? Your bosses are no different. If you leave, they’ll have to find a new person willing to believe the lies they’re trying to sell and that’s work they don’t want to do.

      As a creature of habit, I get being comfortable. But you’re drinking to cope and having breakdowns. That’s not good for you. Yes, your next job could be the same but it also could be so much better. And now you’ll have a better idea of what red flags to watch out for when applying and interviewing. Parts of your job aren’t terrible and I believe that but it sounds like the bad is starting to outweigh the good. This is a risk you will need to take, sooner or later.

    6. London Calling*

      Well. I can’t say this is encouraging, exactly, but it’s what I’ve said to a lot of people with your dilemma. If the company had to make cutbacks and shed staff, do you think they’d exhibit the loyalty to you that you are giving them? and as for worrying that a new job might make your life a living hell, well, no-one can guarantee that it won’t. But you are in a job where you self-medicate and stress to the point that your doctor – your DOCTOR – is telling you to get out. That’s a real hell and you’re in it now.

      OP – and I’m saying this as nicely as I can – you seem to have rather low self-esteem and be a people pleaser. This job, as you see it, rescued you, and for that you’ve tolerated low pay, sexism, professional stagnation and now damage to your mental and physical health. That isn’t the action of somewhere that is “generally nice.” You really need to hoick up your pants and tell yourself that you are worth far, far more and better than this.

    7. apopculturalist*

      Thank you to everyone who has commented. The fact that people saw my comment in this lengthy thread and wanted to help means more than you know.

      It’s so strange how people work sometimes. Usually I’m a confident person with a tough, get-through-anything attitude (mixed with humor, like a lot of people with depression/anxiety), and what all of you are saying is exactly what I would tell someone in my position. It’s surprising how hard it can be to take that advice when the tables are turned.

      I’ve been doing a little job searching. In January, I made it to the final round for a great job in an adjacent field, and while I didn’t get it (and was really bummed at the time), I’m taking it as a great sign that the first job I applied to in basically forever got me to the final round. I’m working on another cover letter to go out this weekend.

      Sometimes you just need to hear other people tell you to do what deep down, you already knew you had to do. Thank you all for giving me another push.

      1. London Calling*

        I am also job hunting, and it’s never been something I’m that confident at, despite a career spanning decades and a pretty good CV. What I use to boost myself is a job I interviewed for a couple of years ago – I was shortlisted as one of five finalists from nearly 300 applicants (using an AAM inspired cover letter). I did that before, I can do it again, and so can you.

      2. London Calling*

        *Usually I’m a confident person with a tough, get-through-anything attitude (mixed with humor, like a lot of people with depression/anxiety)*

        Oh damn. Sussed. :)

  161. oof*

    I made a program that everyone at my company uses. One of the requirements is that a certain field is filled out. If it isn’t filled out, the user gets a prompt along the lines of “Unable to save. Please fill out “field name” and try again.”

    The first week of deployment I get a ton of emails and questions asking why the program is “broken”. I included in the quick start guide that the field needs to be filled out. For the record there aren’t any formatting limitations, someone could type in gibberish. The only condition is that it’s filled. For the first few months, I am 100% okay with showing people how to fix this “error” and show how to avoid it in the future.

    It has now been almost a year since deployment and the same people ask about the same “error” every week. I mentioned it to my manager during the first few months who brushed it off and told me “not everyone is tech-savvy”. Two months ago I told her how frustrating and disruptive it was for me to have to teach the same thing over and over again. Her response was “You need to be more patient with people. These are your coworkers and internal service is very important.”

    I am new to the workforce so I’m not sure if this is normal. Can I pushback further on this or am I being unrealistic?

          1. London Calling*

            I’m not sure this is an age thing. I am sure it’s a people being stupid and wanting someone to hold their hand thing. Which, from my experience, is not limited to older people.

    2. Annie Moose*

      Users are gonna user. Are you able to modify the program further? e.g. add a “required” asterisk if it doesn’t have it already, highlight the field in red if it’s empty, move the error message closer to the empty field, etc.

      For people who ask about it, just have a form email to send out to them… e.g. “did you fill out the First Name field? The First Name field is required when submitting the form” or whatever. It’ll cut down on your time if you just send the same thing every time (as long as it really is the same problem!).

      I don’t know what your manager can really do about it, though. You could go to her and ask if she’d like you to handle requests differently than you currently are, or if the volume of requests is so high that it’s disrupting your regular work you could bring that up to her, but at the end of the day, aside from individual training, good documentation, or altering the program, you probably can’t force your coworkers to learn how to use the program properly.

      1. oof*

        Thank you those are all really good suggestions. I didn’t even stop to think what my manager could even do about it.

        1. valentine*

          Can you set it not to just name the field, but to highlight it? I can see where they are not reading every single field (even if there are only five) until they find that one and are having memory wipes between uses.

          Also: Respond only with “See page 3 in the manual.”

          Although, if you don’t really need it filled out, why create this bother? Or if it must be filled for some reason, make it prefilled (and not editable, because they will delete the content, not refill it, and you will need forced hospitalization).

    3. CliffBars*

      I assume it is, but when they fill out the form, is there an indicator next to that field stating it’s mandatory?

      In dealing with the same questions over and over again, can you set up a canned response you just c&p to people who keep asking?

    4. Jamie*

      It is infuriatingly normal, although I wish it wasn’t.

      I truly hate when people use the “not tech savvy” excuse for not reading a simple instruction. Good managers will also require your end users to follow instructions, but too many cut this kind of thing endless slack.

    5. EmmaBird*

      I think my next step if I were in your situation would be to document every instance of this situation– who is making the request and how long each request takes to handle. I’ve made good headway with bosses that thought something wasn’t a big deal until I could prove numerically how much time was being spent on a problem.

      From the sounds of it, you should be careful to start the conversation telling her that you’ve taken her feedback into consideration (and are being patient and polite with your coworkers) and only then should you pivot into explaining what you found from documenting. And then you’d ask her whether you should continue to spend x hours a week on this or spending those x hours on other projects. It’s possible she might say that you have to continue to re-teach these same people over and over again! But this does sound kind of ridiculous to me.

    6. Rick Tq*

      What is the purpose of the field and why is it required? It looks like you have a User Interface problem to solve more than a user training issue.

      If the users can load it with gibberish today maybe the field should be replaced with an auto-generated sequence number or something similar.

    7. ArtK*

      Is this field something that the users would consider optional? Or something where they wouldn’t always have the information available when they had the rest of the data? It sounds like a process problem to me.

    8. LGC*

      I’ve learned that if you think of ten ways that someone can mess something up, your team will ALWAYS choose option 11.

      (Yes, this is a somewhat more diplomatic way of calling your coworkers idiots.)

      Okay, but to be serious:

      To answer your direct question, people ARE going to ask questions that you think are stupid. Even if there’s documentation. And sometimes you have to grin and bear it.

      But…I have a question – why doesn’t the field have default text it fills in with if the user leaves it blank? It seems like if the field’s contents don’t matter (which is what it sounds like from how you described it), having default text if it’s blank (like “miscellaneous”) would give a better user experience.

    9. OtterB*

      Have you asked the people who are repeatedly asking about the same “error” what it looks like from their perspective? Not in an accusatory, get-with-the-program way, but genuinely saying that you want the program to be easier to use and asking what would help avoid this problem? Now, sometimes this gives you answers you couldn’t or wouldn’t implement, but sometimes it gives you a different perspective on the problem.

    10. Autumnheart*

      You need to change the wording of the error message so that it’s more clear to the user. The way it’s currently worded, it sounds like a technical problem with the form, not a missing required field. You should change it to say something like, “Field name is missing required information. Please fill out field name and hit Enter.” (Or whatever they need to do.) That makes it much more clear that the user needs to do something further in order to finish the task.

      The goal of good usability is to meet users where they are, not to “teach” a task. If you’re getting a lot of repeated messages about this “error”, that’s a sure sign that the form needs to have better messaging.

      You could also put in a tool tip (a question mark in a circle above the field, or at the top of the form) with a pop-up/overlay that reads, “Having trouble filling out this form? Make sure that you’ve completed each field marked with an asterisk (*). Hit Enter when you’ve filled out all required fields. Fields without an asterisk do not need to be filled out.” And then make double-plus sure that all your required fields are, indeed, marked with an asterisk.

    11. Rick Tq*

      OP, you need to pull back this program and rework it ASAP, you have a huge security hole in your program.

      Having a field where “there aren’t any formatting limitations, someone could type in gibberish. ” means your program is wide open to a buffer overflow attack and cursory research will show you how severe that can be.

      You should figure out why the field is there, what should be in it, and what the limited to data entry should be so you can validate the data before you process it. If the field is really optional then make it so, but still do the basic buffer checks .

      Your on-site information security people will thank you, I expect this would be flagged as an issue during your next security audit.

      https://www.veracode.com/security/buffer-overflow
      https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Buffer_Overflow

    12. Someone Else*

      If the error literally tells them what’s wrong and how to resolve it and you still need to personally explain that to them, unfortunately, this is not a question of “tech-savvy”. You work with computer illiterate people and it’s not going to change.

  162. Mobius 1*

    Can I just say that the suggested articles under this one are three of my top five favorites on the entire site?

  163. Coworker hater*

    My company hired a new employee a month and a half ago, on his second day he was 30 min late, 45 on the next, and so forth ever since, on the average day he’s 20 min late. On top of that he’s taking 1:30 – 2:00 hs lunchs (we get an hour) and he spends almost all day on his phone (I sit across from him so I can see all his activity – FYI I have never checked on anyone else but this is so extreme that it’s impossible not to notice). He shares his office with someone else and on the occasions that this person is not in the office he’ll spend all day on his phone, to the point that he’ll show away on our IM system but he’s sitting right there. His work is not good, and he doesn’t put any effort into learning how to do things, he keeps asking the same questions over and over that he should really know the answer to (we even had some college classes together, so I know that he has been taught that) but once you answer him he doesn’t pay attention/take notes/etc. I don’t think I need to say that I dislike him. The issue is our boss works from home and has been assigned an extremely time consuming project (that he was hired to help with, needless to say it hasn’t happened) so she’s not in the office/as involved to notice all this things that happen EVERY DAY. Me and another coworker brought some of the issues with new coworker on his second week and she seemed really concerned, yet he’s still here doing the same things. Me and other coworkers have said things to him about what our hours are, and after that he was on time for a day but then would go back to his usual practices. My question is – should I bring this back to my boss? And if he doesn’t get fired/his behavior changes how do I deal with it? It’s extremely frustrating to work 9 1/2 hs days and see somebody be working barely 7 and being on their phone 5 of those, knowing that we are probably being paid exactly the same. (Also, I know first hand that there are no justifications for his behavior, that he’s not doing extra work at other times, and that he has work to do).

    1. Kathenus*

      I 100% get how frustrating this must be. It’s good that you and your coworker kept your boss informed and that she was concerned. It sounds like it’s been about a month since that conversation with your boss? I think that a follow up would be warranted, referencing the last discussion, and saying that his improvement didn’t last. At the end of that conversation, proactively ask her if/how she would like any updates – that way you know what, if any, future role she would like you to take regarding communication on his performance. The only other thing I’d say is don’t do his work for him, don’t fix his mistakes – let him succeed or fail by his work. Good luck.

    2. Mediamaven*

      So, sometimes as a boss it feels preferable to overlook a bad employee for a period of time, hope it gets better (when you know it won’t) and just try to avoid conflict. But when other employees come to you with concern it’s often what you need to say I have to not ignore this and I have to take care of it. I run a business with two offices on different coasts. When one coast collectively came to me and said we cannot work with this person anymore, it empowered me to terminate someone that I should have in the first place! In the other office, there was a lazy person who wasn’t supporting her team but we were so understaffed that I though the team would want me to solve for that first. Circumstances led to that person leaving and the team was overjoyed, promised me they could handle the extra work and assured me that our office would be so much better off. I felt terrible I let it go on for so long. Long story short, tell your boss. I’m hopeful it’ll be beneficial for you.

      1. Mazzy*

        Yup. But also as a manager, you don’t want one person dragging down the energy of the team and lead others to stop trying.

    3. CatCat*

      I think you just need to start making this boss’s problem. She has heard you and is Concerned, but nothing has happened. So start making it more a problem for her.

      Next time hated coworker, we’ll call him Kevin, asks you something you’ve already explained. “Sorry, we’ve already been over that and I have to focus on my work right now. Why don’t you check in with Boss about it?” Then turn away and focus on your work.

      If it’s something he hasn’t asked you about and it is appropriate for you to answer, “Kevin, I suggest that you take notes for reference in the future. As you know, I don’t have time to re-visit topics we’ve already discussed.”

      To Boss, “Boss, I know you’ve been swamped lately. I have too and have been putting it extra hours. It seems like Kevin has capacity. Could we shift [thing he has already been trained on/should know how to do] over to him?” If he sucks at it, it’s her problem. If she wants you to fix his work, talk about what you should prioritize and what can be put more on the backburner to do that.

      If he doesn’t become her problem, I could see this carrying on for a long time.

      1. valentine*

        I like this.

        It seems the questions are the only place he impacts you, and you can redirect him. I get that his behavior is appalling, but it’s your boss’ to correct. Pretend you are on 21 Jump Street and he is a narc who’s gone to the wrong address.

  164. Carol Danvers*

    I have slightly unusual problem that I think could be tricky to resolve, but i guess that posting it here is better than stewing about it.

    My coworker who sits beside is an extremely loud eater. Now, I will allow that I am incredibly sensitive to eating noises, and that sometimes the auditory treat of my non-loud eating coworker (who sits on the other side of me) enjoying a muffin beside me grinds my gears. But that, I can generally cover with headphones. I’m currently taking refuge in the bathroom because Loud Eater is back at her desk (after having taken a long lunch without actually eating her packed lunch) slurping so loudly that even the dulcet tones of my podcast couldn’t drown it out. Generally, in our office, people will enjoy snacks or small meals at our desks (most junior staff don’t have offices, so everything is open-concept) but for lunch, we will decamp to one of three lunchrooms/smaller serveries on our floor, or to the food court downstairs, but there is no set rule about eating at our desks. Loud Eater has no qualms about using the facilities (fridge, coffee machine, cutlery and plates) in our lunchroom, but won’t actually eat in there for whatever reason, so she will usually just heat up her lunch and come back to her desk. I try to time my lunch breaks so that I’m not there when she’s eating, but some days that means I don’t take my lunch until 2:00. No one else who sits in our desk pod has complained about this, so I wonder if I’m just over sensitive. Is this something that I need to deal with, or can it be addressed in some way?

    1. Maria Rambeau*

      If my perspective is helpful, I feel awkward eating in an office lunchroom area because I honestly feel like everyone’s watching me, a fat person, eat (if it’s not healthy, oh that’s why she’s fat, if it is healthy, oh she must be faking because she’s still fat), so I prefer to eat at my desk. I think there are lots of other reasons why someone might not want to eat in the lunchroom. If you feel comfortable and she is a reasonable person, you could explain that you can often hear her eating over your headphones, and would rather schedule your lunch to align with her in-office eating lunch period, so the only thing you need from her is to agree on what time she will eat, so you know what time to take lunch.

      1. valentine*

        Do you have any work you can take with you elsewhere so you can eat when you want (I think being fed properly will decrease your annoyance) and edit or what have you while she eats?

        Earplugs+headphones+RainyMood?

    2. Susan K*

      I don’t think she’s obligated to stop eating at her desk, because this is really your issue, not hers. She may have reasons that she prefers to eat at her desk, such as privacy or wanting to use her computer while she’s eating. If it doesn’t bother anyone else, it can’t be that gratuitously loud, so yes, you are probably being too sensitive.

      That, however, doesn’t mean you can’t ask her about it nicely. Make it clear that you are basically asking a favor for her not to eat at her desk because of a quirk that you have (being sensitive to eating noises). Maybe she won’t mind moving her lunch breaks to the lunchroom.

      If she balks at your request, though, maybe there are some other compromises you can try. Can you find a quiet place (e.g., conference room) to work or take your lunch break while she’s eating? Can you switch desks with someone who is farther away from the noisy eater? Can the noisy eater try to take her lunch break at a specific time so you can make sure you’re not in the vicinity while she’s eating?

    3. Zona the Great*

      You do seem overly concerned with how this person uses the kitchen rather than about the foundational complaint: the noise. And honestly, I’m not sure you can do much here. I work next to the loudest breather on the planet. Breathing is required in the workplace so I cannot and will not ever say anything or even let it be known that it is annoying. Eating while working is so common that I don’t think you’ll be able to single her out by asking her to stop and I don’t think you can tell her to eat more quietly.

    4. Jamie*

      I have the same issue – learned here on AAM that there was a name for it and felt much better to know it exists outside of my family.

      I know how awful it is but I consider this 100% my problem. I’d never ask someone to change how, what, or where they eat even if their lack of manners contributes to the problem. Because for me even the most polite eater will have me all clenchy so it doesn’t matter.

      I find a reason to be away from my desk and I have bribed the person ordering lunch for meetings to steer people away from a certain sandwich place that has particularly loud chips. Best $25 I’ve ever spent.

      Repeatedly.

  165. Tathren*

    I’m finishing up the second week at a new job and I’m amazed by how much better this company is than my old one (in terms of professionalism, policy, etc.).

    My old company was so stingy that we were constantly out of office supplies, using computers that we could barely do our jobs on, never given real opportunities for professional development, never given business cards when we ran out… I still don’t have my last expense reimbursement check from them, because company policy was that checks were mailed to us so I couldn’t pick it up on my last day. (I don’t expect them to stiff me on it, but it’ll probably be another month before I see that money.)

    In comparison, so far my new company has not only already gotten me business cards, but they’ve already cut me an expense check for things I had to pay for last week, paid for a membership for me to a professional organization in our industry, and when I made a passing comment that my predecessor’s ergonomic keyboard was hard to type on they went and bought me a new one the very next day! And I have access to all the office supplies I need- no more hiding paperclips or binder clips in my desk! I never thought I’d be this excited about PAPERCLIPS, of all things, but seeing a fully-stocked supply closest makes me want to weep tears of joy!

    1. Camellia*

      I am Kermit the Frog running across the screen flailing his arms and shouting Yaaaaaaaaaayyy for you!

    2. Even Steven*

      Wheeee, Tathren!
      I know that joy. I left a Scrooge-ey company last year to join a new one and was boggled at NewJob’s ‘perks’. Day One I came in with a tote bag of office supplies, tissues, etc. expecting to stock my desk, and the HR staffer who walked me there, laughed and steered me to the copier room for a tour of the cupboards! Ibuprofen! Tissues! Pens! My goodness, PENS! Post it notes! It was like Christmas. Then she walked me to my desk, took my supply tote from me, put it on my desk and told me to take it home, and pointed to the tote bag that was already there. In it – logo gear to keep -an insulated tumbler, a fleece blanket (which I use all the time because it is freezing in there) and a branded portfolio with a legal pad. It really is the little things that make a job a delight. To join Camellia, I am Muppet Show’s Animal, wildly bashing on the drums to celebrate your delight!

  166. Shadow Moon*

    I am a manager. The employee of another manager in my department was recently demoted. I observed IT moved her computer yesterday from what was her office to a cubicle desk just outside my office. While the IT employee was moving her office, he laughed (it’s a wide-open cube farm outside my office) and commented “She was moved back?! Poor girl!” He was snickering the entire time. I didn’t see which employees that have cubicles were there to hear the comments (they report to a different manager).

    I’m just feeling like I need to say something as I think his comment was inappropriate. My department reports to the same boss as IT. I’m looking for guidance as to whether I should report this to my boss (who’s off til Monday) or HR or let it go? I feel embarrassed on behalf of this employee!

    1. LCL*

      I’d report it to the IT boss. Because IT people have the keys to the kingdom, so they are supposed to be mature and discreet about whatever they are doing.

      1. KR*

        Yeah this. I don’t think you have to *report* it like you would if he say, stole her stapler or something, but you could say “Linda, your technician Bob was making some snarky comments about Ramona’s desk move the other day while he was moving her computer. Given that she got demoted it can be a sensitive topic. Can you ask him not to make those types of comments in the future? I’d hate for someone to overhear.”

        1. Jamie*

          I like this. A heads up should be all it takes for this to be handled quietly without undue embarrassment.

    2. Maya Elena*

      I’d probably leave it alone because it comes off as nit-picky language policing, even if it is personally distasteful makes you less disposed towards that IT guy as a human being. I can’t think of what policy his behavior would really violate – it’s not a bigoted comment, and surely the neighboring workers will notice once the former office-dweller takes up her new cubicle abode and put two and two together, so it’s not exactly a secret.

  167. Acting Llama Wrangler*

    I’ve been filling in as the acting head of llama wrangling for six months. When I was made acting head I vacated my previous position as llama wrangler associate, and it has been filled part time by temporary staff. Right before I started work, we had gone from two llama wrangler associates to one (office of 3 to office of 2, though of course the work hasn’t deceased). Usually when someone becomes acting at my office, they get a 10% bump, unless that doesn’t get them to the lowest pay of the acting position they’re in, in which case they get the lowest pay of that range (this is how our policy is written). However — I got a 10% bump, it didn’t not get me to the lowest pay (or near it) because of a variety of reasons. I have been interviewing to become the permanent head of llama wrangling for the last two months.

    Today I was called and told they want me to continue as acting head for an additional 6-8 months, with another 10% increase in pay (still does not get me to the lowest rung of the pay scale), and without the ability to hire for my previous position because then I wouldn’t have a place to land if I don’t get the permanent gig. So I’m still expected to do all the requirements of the head llama wrangler, and the llama wrangler associate, without being paid for it (I’ve asked them to reconsider both this and the hiring of my old position) without any definite plan for me to eventually be hired. The work is intense, and involves a lot of travel, and has been a significant increase in my stress. The pay bump if made permanent, as well as my previous position being hired, would make a lot of this more tolerable, but without that I feel like this is just a way to screw me over, right? If I’m not qualified to do the job then hire someone who is, don’t make me continue to jump through hoops. Is this crazy? Am I being weird here?

    1. CAA*

      You are not being weird to want to be paid according to the written policy! What would happen to your salary if they raised it to the appropriate Acting Head level and you later had to resume the Associate position? If you would normally keep the raise, and it sounds like it would be substantially larger than the typical raise in this situation, then perhaps you could negotiate a temporary increase for the duration of the time that you are Acting Head and agree to accept your current salary again if you were later put back to Associate. If you agree to something like this, Get It In Writing!

      I’m also wondering if there’s something else going on that you might not be aware of. Could they be thinking about getting out of the llama wrangling business altogether, maybe by selling off that division? Or might there be some pending merger where they’d acquire more llama wranglers? They might be reluctant to take action that affects expense and profit numbers if they’re in negotiation for something like that. Or, not filling the position now might also be a way to have some impact on the bottom line if things are looking bad for the company overall.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re jerking you around, that’s insane that they have a written policy and are actively avoiding it by just doing their 10% bumps. Someone is either inept or consciously screwing you over, IMO. You shouldn’t be jumping through hoops when there is a clear policy…

      If there as no policy and they just were stingy with increases in these situations, I would still hate them for it but be less rabid about it. They are the worst and you deserve better. Use this opportunity to gain the experience of Head Wrangler and blow that Popsicle Stand ASAP where they pay you the appropriate rate.

  168. Anon anon doo doo doo doo do*

    A few weeks ago I wrote in about an infuriating coworker that I originally championed but turned out to be a disaster. Things have gotten even more disastrous.

    Quick review: I am a teacher, and my co-worker Percy is a teacher/student aide, aka a Para. After being this guy’s biggest cheerleader, the cracks began to show: revealing confidential information about a student to members of a partnering organization, oversharing, claiming he could do things he didn’t know how, lying about what kid he was assigned to, etc.

    I was DONE with a capital DUH with him after he lied to me in writing about what kids he was assigned to, and stayed civil but distant. But then another teacher relayed this story that Percy told him: Percy and another teacher, let’s call him Wakeen, were talking about Percy’s upcoming trip. Wakeen made a joke to Percy about him getting a girl while he was on vacation. Rather than saying that he didn’t like that kind of joking, Percy went straight to the principal and lodged a sexual harassment complaint against Wakeen. The principal had no choice but to make this an investigation that will go in Wakeen’s file. Wakeen seemed to think that they were joking around in a kind of men-to-men way and that they were cool like that. Now, I am a middle aged woman, and although I have been married for 20 years, I still don’t understand men’s humor, but I understand they engage in this locker-room nonsense. Now Wakeen will have to endure this investigation and blemish on his record. In my city, our file follows us from school to school.

    Now I am not excusing Wakeen’s poor taste, but as someone who was really sexually harassed, I am beyond enraged that this complaint seemed to be made so cavalierly. So is the entire staff. Percy spread this story around, seeming pleased with himself. A cryptic email from another staff member went out to our list essentially warning us to trust no one, no joking around, etc., Percy has been banished from several of the teachers’ department offices (not the one he is part of), people have steered away from him physically, and warning each other about not talking to him. When Percy came inquiring about the progress of a student he is not working with yet again, I very aggressively snapped at him. Granted, he had no right to be asking about this other kid, but I think I was too nasty.

    So now what do we do? Our staff is fractured and I think our behavior toward Percy is getting out of hand. I can’t seem to control my anger, and I am always in control of my emotions and I pride myself on being professional. I’d really like to hear everyone’s take on how to move forward.

    1. LCL*

      Percy is a pot stirrer. The best thing for you all would be that he is fired. But not for his complaint, which he is allowed to make. For his lies and revealing confidential information.

      1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

        I agree, for the record, all these incidents involving kids have been reported, and the union is not backing him up, so hopefully he’ll be gone after this year.

    2. fposte*

      Honestly, I have a much bigger problem with the other stuff you’ve said about Percy in your previous post, wherein he misleadingly represented a student in a way that could seriously damage that student’s educational prospects, than about this, especially reported third-hand, and I think your frustration about this incident may be related to you just having had all you can take of Percy. I really, really don’t want to get into a situation where people’s desire to have a report-free folder is more important than reporting of sexual harassment concerns, and if that’s how the system is set up, that’s a problem with the system itself, not the reporters. And the staff is handling this badly (that email is Bad Idea Jeans), and you can’t snap at him.

      Percy inarguably sucks, but you all need to stop making Percy a Thing. No more swapping Percy stories or emailing coded responses to Percy’s behavior. I realize you can’t control your colleagues, and that this kind of intensity of involvement is common in some workplaces (I think Ed from higher to lower is inclined toward this), but you can start backing off it yourself. ID what you think you genuinely need to do about Percy and to handle Percy–make it a list if you like so you have something to keep to–and then when you’re not doing things on that list think about something else. Right now he’s the wound everybody’s pecking at, and it’s not good for the coop. It’s a hard habit to break because it’s so satisfying to share that frustration, but ultimately sharing it just makes it bigger, and then when Percy goes you’ll have a bitching vacuum that wants to be filled. (It may be worth thinking about why you received him with such joy initially–is there a habit of excess involvement, either positive or negative, at your school?)

      Now none of this precludes making a fact-based case for Percy’s dismissal, para shortage or no, if that’s what you and colleagues want to do; he’s not a safe advocate for the kids in his care, and he’s a bad colleague. But if you can’t take measurable action to replace him, you need to shrink the mental real estate he’s taking up, or else he’ll eat your life.

      1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

        Thanks, this is exactly what I needed to hear. In the beginning, he was one of those energetic people who was always the first to pitch in with any help needed, working extra time, doing stuff outside his job, which was covering up this weird insidious underlying behavior. I’m going to stop engaging in this mess.

    3. blackcat*

      Does your district have an official ethics complaint line? Ombudsman?

      Percy is flagrantly violating FERPA. That should get reported.

      1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

        I understand there are 4 open investigations on Percy right now. I think admin is doing what they can.

    4. G-Man*

      Is he gay? Is Percy married? Is he in a religion that forbades pre-marital sex. If so, he may have felt the joke was out of line. Also, Wakeen was suggesting Percy sleep with a girl while on his vacation. How is this in any way appropriate in the workplace? If Wakeen had learned you were going out of town for the weekend with your SO and said, “Hubba, hubba!”, wouldn’t you report him for this? Furthermore, remember, we men of a certain age and below have been taught equality above all else, we’ve watched our mothers, sisters and wives in the workplace and we don’t appreciate/tolerate any sexual harassment. For once in the history of men, a man reported a sexual harassment comment about women and you’re bar-b-queing him? Just because you like Wakeen more?

      1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

        If someone made a hubba hubba joke, by the time I got through with him he’d wished I reported him. I’m actually ambivalent about Wakeen and never saw this side of him. I think Fposte is right and this was the proverbial straw.

        Interesting that you picked up on his being raised in an extremely religious background, one of the stories that made us want to cheer him on is that he left a repressive religious background that made him estranged from his family. For all I know, that’s a lie too.

        1. valentine*

          So you see hubba hubba is wrong but “getting a girl” (meaning a student, no?) is okay because men raised to be sexist can’t help it if they’re Wakeen speaking to Percy? You are part of the problem. You cannot say “I know from sexual harassment and Wakeen did not harass you.” Percy was absolutely right and I’m glad he took the comment and his (and possibly students’) safety seriously enough to report it. You should be glad he feels safe to do so at your workplace. I hope you’ve not shown Wakeen any support over it. Stay out of it if you can’t defend the right of anyone to report.

          Disengage as well as you can. Focus on your sphere of influence. Don’t accept or share gossip about Percy. Go need-to-know.

  169. RunnerGirl77*

    Hi All,

    I was wondering if anyone out there could relate to my situation.

    I’ve been doing accounts receivable roles for 10 years. At one time I was pursuing my CGA designation, however, that program got eliminated and is now replaced with the CPA. The entrance requirement for the CPA program is an undergraduate degree, which I don’t have. I need to work to pay my bills, so to pursue my undergrad part-time would take a considerable amount of time.

    I decided to try getting into payroll. I took all of the courses for the Payroll Compliance Practitioner and passed with marks of 80% or higher in all of them. I even did a few months of volunteer work to get some experience. Even with education and experience, I am consistently turned down for payroll assistant positions because I don’t have enough experience.

    I have tried applying to junior accountant jobs. Again, I get turned down because I don’t have enough experience.

    I have tried asking for additional responsibilities at my work, but I have been told no because of the segregation of duties.

    I’m frustrated because for 10 years all I have been able to get are these entry-level accounts receivable jobs that barely pay above minimum wage. It just feels like nobody is willing to give me a break. On my resume, I list my accomplishments to show I am able to make a positive difference.

    Do any of you have any suggestions on how to move forward? I would appreciate any advice you can offer.

    Sorry for the long post.

    1. KR*

      Would you be willing to move into more of a purchasing/inventory manager role? I do a lot of accounts payable but I also do a ton of purchasing, inventory management of purchased goods, and general financial administration for my team. It’s not nessecarily a step up but it gives you a bit of a jump into inventory management and procurement

        1. RunnerGirl77*

          I guess some other options could be accounts receivable manager, or office manager too.

    2. Chrysanthemum's The Word*

      Here’s a thought for payroll positions…do you have any small PEO’s or payroll companies in your area? I worked for, and hired at one, for many years and we would definitely be willing to take a chance on someone without a lot of experience if they had a strong accounting background and work history. Be forewarned the bigger players, like ADP, will want significant experience so I think starting small/local is a good way to get your feet wet.

  170. Bee*

    Is a bird in hand worth two in a bush when it comes to job searching? I’m almost two years into my first job out of college, in a role that’s a split between Teapots Design and Teapots Operations. I decided that I would start searching for a new job after my 2 year anniversary, looking for Teapots Design roles, as that is where I want my long term career to be. However, a client I’ve closely worked with has reached out to see if I’d be interested in a role at her company, in Teapots Operations. This role is a significant jump in both pay and title from where I am now, and I likely couldn’t get a job at this level in Teapots Design once I start job searching. I would enjoy the Ops job, but it’s not a job I would’ve applied for on my own.

    I’m not sure what’s better for my career long-term: A “known quantity” job in Teapots Operations with better pay/title but not what I see myself doing long term, or waiting it out and trying my luck with Teapots Design jobs in a few months. Anyone further along in their careers have any advice? It’s hard to determine from my current vantage point, where I’ve kind of been blinded by the pay jump the Ops job would be.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Ooh, interesting one. Two things I would consider in the decision: 1.) you said you would enjoy the Ops job, so that with the pay and title would have me leaning that direction, and 2.) you said you wanted your career in design long term. Why? Is this a dream since you were 14, or just something you generally expected to do when you started in the field? I wouldn’t give up my long-term dream and goal, but it might not be that important to you and you might find an even better long-term career in ops.

      My personal philosophy has been to follow the best opportunities as they arise (although I have turned several down over 20 yrs). Industries and markets change. Being open to change and unexpected career moves seems good. I don’t know what we’re really talking about with teapots, but generally operations is a good career path to higher places in the company.

      1. Bee*

        The “Teapots Design” job is product management and “Teapots Operations” is digital marketing operations (defining audiences, working with brand teams to decide who to target, etc.). Definitely easier to use job pseudonyms when writing it out :) Product management isn’t a life long dream of mine or anything–I stumbled into my current role out of college because I had previously worked with at a client of the company and then needed someone entry level in the product department. I enjoy product management a lot and am interested in continuing down that path long term, moreso than Digital Marketing, but DM is certainly not a bad place to be either.

        Thank you very much for taking the time to respond–you’re very right that industries and markets change, and I probably wouldn’t get an opportunity like this for another few years. I’ll have to see how things play out!

        1. Autumnheart*

          I’m inclined to say “Bird in hand” for this one: go for the DM Operations job. I think it would be a great opportunity to diversify your skills, and make you a more effective product manager when you continue down your career path. And you never know–if the economy takes a turn, this will broaden your marketability. I would definitely go for it. Worst case scenario, you get a year or two of DM experience and then move on to focus more on product management. It really pays off to be able to serve as a bridge between two business disciplines because you have experience in both.

  171. NaoNao*

    Hello all

    I took a bold (and not very AMA approved, eek!) step and directly emailed a CEO of a small start up (he had an easily findable email with the tagline “I’d love to hear from you” so I felt it was less of a risk than tracking someone down using the “brute force guess” method) with a highly targeted cover-letter-ish pitch for a job I feel is tailor made for me. I also noted I’d applied through the company portal in the email, just in case :)

    It worked! He emailed back hours later saying “You sound great, thanks for your lovely cover letter and passion, I’ve forwarded this [it included a resume] to [hiring manager] and he’ll take it from there.”

    So, this job is a stretch position for me while also being a relatively reasonable “next step” career wise. It’s Editor in Chief of educational video materials and the focus is on mentoring the designers/producers/writers and iterating the company’s house style, things like that. My background is pretty varied, but I am an accomplished professional writer (albeit not a journalist) and I have a deep background in training and adult education, and am currently making the *exact* kind of videos he’s looking for.

    Does anyone have any tips or focus areas IF I get a phone interview out of this? In terms of what “typical” Editor in Chief interviews are looking for or any “don’t go there” stuff? Any advice would help!

  172. Persephone Mulberry*

    I’m halfway through my two-week notice! Everything is transitioning smoothly. Next week is going to be boring as I’m handing off my accounts and I’ll mostly just be on hand if questions pop up. I’m looking forward to my new job with no wafts of “have I made a terrible mistake?” floating through my mind, so yay! And it is supremely weird to not be trolling through Indeed on a daily basis.

  173. Ciela*

    Daily newsletters from vendors?

    So I’m wondering if this is weird or just a cultural difference.
    I’m in the US, and I have a few vendors that will send out an e-mail blast 2-4 times a month. Normally something along the lines of “check out our new mint green teapots!” “20% off all chocolate teapots now until the end of the month!” And some pictures of the products in question. Great, I understand that.
    But then there is this vendor in China, with whom my company has NEVER done business that sends daily newsletters. Things like, “on vacation I went on a hike, here is a picture of a waterfall I saw.” Pictures of food from their cousin’s wedding, and other non-business topics. Is it just me, or is this weird? They do not have an unsubscribe link in the e-mail, and replying back with “please remove me from you mailing list” just gets inquiries about what they have done to offend me.
    I keep blocking the e-mail address, but every few days they change to a new sender, and I cannot figure out how to block an entire domain.

    1. Havarti*

      That pretty much sounds like spam at this point. Can you make a rule in Outlook or whatever you use that any email with that domain name goes to a separate folder? Or maybe your IT department can help block it on a higher level, especially if you’re not the only one at your company getting the latest gossip on Chinese wedding food.

      1. Ciela*

        Well, making a rule would have made way too much sense! :)
        Couldn’t block the domain, but anything containing their website in the subject or body of the e-mail will now be deleted!
        We have off-site IT, and a pay per incident contract, so this did not rise to the level of calling them.

        I monitor 4 different e-mail addresses, and they ALL get this spam. But not all the same spam on the same days.

  174. Mary*

    What is the difference between a job and a career? I have a job offer for a decent position, but my mentor thinks I shouldn’t take it because it’s “just a job.” I’ve been in the workforce for 15 years but have no idea how to pursue a “career” as opposed to just having a job that I enjoy and that allows me to enjoy my life out of work as well. Also, how much of a pay cut is reasonable to pursue a good (not great) opportunity? My current job could run out of funding in a month, or it could be funded forever – things are really up in the air – and I need to decide about taking a $10K pay cut for a guaranteed job elsewhere.

    1. Jess*

      Best definition I’ve heard — if you wake up and can’t wait to get to work, you have a career. Otherwise, you have a job.

    2. fposte*

      I think it means different things to different people, and it’s not always a difference that matters. If you have a job that you enjoy and that allows you to live the life you want outside of work, you’re doing better than most people.

      “Career” is usually about future trajectory. Sometimes it’s about professional growth through your lifetime–is this a position that will allow you to grow, and learn, and move to jobs with more responsibilities? Which is a legitimate question, but it’s also okay to say “I don’t actually value that.” It can also mean a trajectory that will allow you to save up for family expenses or future retirement needs with reasonable projection for the future; even if you don’t want to be CEO of Pineapple Pluckers Inc., you can know that pineapple plucking is a growth field, you’re polishing skills likely to be in demand for a while, and you’re contributing to retirement accounts/college funds etc. That one I wouldn’t dismiss.

      Now it could be that your mentor thinks you should want a trajectory in the first category and you don’t; I think a lot of people are fine not reaching for the stars. But if she’s seeing you look only at whether a job is good for right now and not where it will fit in your life in twenty years, she may have a point.

      I think that’s not necessarily the same question, though, as “I’m on soft money and should I take this reliable job.” You can look for a third possibility now; you can take the reliable job with a paycut and look for something better paid to move onto; you can decide that you love what you do and you’ll be able to secure something else quickly enough if it runs out of money to stay; you can decide that you’ve had enough of the budget insecurity and it’s worth a pay cut to get some solid ground underneath you at this stage of life. I don’t think any of those necessarily commit you to job vs. career, and I’d think about those questions independent of which one your mentor thought your choice was.

    3. MsM*

      If the new job doesn’t turn out to be great in ways other than the paycut, are you going to think it was at least worth trying for the skills or connections you can pick up there?

    4. Person from the Resume*

      A career is associated with a trajectory or path. There’s room to move up and increase responsibilities – not even necessarily within the same company. It’s like junior developer leads to senior developer to development lead. Just a job is a dead end career path. Maybe you can keep doing the same thing at new companies, but there’s no room for increased responsibilities and growth.

    5. Autumnheart*

      A career is when you do similar kinds of work at multiple jobs, and/or work that evolves from similar work.

      I’d consider a “reasonable” pay cut to be a) as small as you can manage, b) still within the market range of the position, and c) enough money to allow you to afford your bills and necessities. If a pay cut is below market range for the job and/or forces you to take drastic reductions in your lifestyle (e.g. can’t pay your student loans, can’t afford your car or rent, doesn’t come with health benefits), then it’s too much of a cut.

      If a person loses their job, or changes careers into one that is known to be underpaid (social work, education, etc) then that’s one thing, but there’s no benefit to going the “starving artist” route voluntarily unless you are going to get a major bump out of it later. For example, if you decide to go back to school for an advanced degree that will give you a 30% pay increase once you’ve finished. Or if you’re spending a year working at a startup because it will give you experience in a technology that other companies are paying $$$ for, but who won’t hire someone without experience.

      1. Mary*

        Thank you for this food for thought. I can manage the pay cut but I wouldn’t even consider it if my current job were secure. Maybe part of me is just attracted to the idea of being “wanted” by another company which I know is not rational.

    6. Maya Elena*

      I once took a small pay-cut to pursue an opportunity with much more growth potential, and I did experience a fairly substantial pay increase, and could probably have done better with more effort. But trading an ok job for an ok one with less money is not a good deal, in my opinion, unless the small decrease nets you lots of other perks, e.g. better benefits and a shorter commute across than down your stairs.

    7. Asenath*

      A career is something with a planned pathway, I think. A job is something you take to pay the bills, not necessarily as a stepping stone to the next part of a career. And people generally have more emotional investment in careers. I’ve generally taken jobs. I’m not much interested in spending my working live pursuing then next step in realizing my calling. If I enjoy most of my work and get paid decently, I’m contented.

      For the other question – so much depends on whether you can live comfortably by your own standards on a $10K pay cut, and what your tolerance for instability. I don’t do instability myself – I once took a half-time longer term job over a better one that was short term.

    8. Mary*

      Thank you for all the replies! This is all so helpful to clarifying my thoughts and options.

  175. Anon in a toxic world*

    I’m looking to get out of my toxic job, but boss has tickets/things booked for a conference for us in 3 months. Assuming I get another job and leave, is that okay? Would I owe anything? I don’t have any offers, but it’s just a thought because I don’t want to leave on bad terms either….

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It is okay! This is just part of the cost of doing business. Since you’re in a toxic environment, you may get some pushback on this, but remember that this is a business expense and not a personal one, so you should not have to reimburse.

  176. Conifer*

    What can I say to openly racist + Trump supporters in the workplace? Assume HR has already been a pathway and didn’t work, and allies are few and far between. Also assume that I am looking for another job too. Is it too much to just say “That’s racist, Karen. Don’t say that.” Or “If you go on your black people haven’t assimilated to America rant one more time, I will take you to HR. Again.” Or is this…too much.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I think we need more context. What are they saying exactly?

      If they are saying “I voted for Trump”, that’s a “yikes”, but I don’t think you can do anything about it.

      If they are being openly racist, react according to the degree of what they are saying. If you need to keep reporting to HR, do it.

      1. valentine*

        How likely are you to be chastised or fired for making racial statements? If they don’t mention race and you do, you could be the one in trouble. How does HR want you to respond? Is your manager no help?

    3. KR*

      “Karen, I’m not really interested in hearing your opinion about this and I’d appreciate it if you took it outside.” Maybe? Or “I am extremely uncomfortable with this conversation. Let’s keep focused on work.” Maybe even, “Karen, I don’t really care about your feelings about this and I don’t want to hear about it at work.” Or “Wow, you know that’s really racist right?” And then “I told you last Tuesday about how that’s a really racist point of view/I don’t want to hear about this topic/ect. Did you forget? Why are you continuing to talk about this when you know it’s gross and racist?” I would keep letting HR know. If someone is so bigoted they can’t help but spew this hateful rhetoric at work than they deserve to be repremanded and HR needs to act on it. If you keep reporting (formally) at the very least it creates a paper trail and at the very most it makes it HRs problem because they keep getting the reports.

      1. KR*

        Also can you like actually show her out of your office or pick up your work and go somewhere else? Like “Karen I don’t want to hear this kind of thing and I’m going to go work somewhere else. “

  177. Ess*

    When to move on?
    In my current role I’m underpaid compared to wider industry. Similar roles in similar cities are at least 25% more. Payrises are minimal or non-existent at my organisation without promotion.

    My duties are basically the same as the next role up in my org but without title or pay rise. My company are rather relectantly implementing a promotion program, where if you’re eligible and meet performance requirements over the next year, you may be promoted into the next role up. Note *may* – they would never commit 100% to this as they want to keep an ‘out’ in case they ever need it.

    The thing is I quite like the role and environment and my colleagues and it offers some flexibility that is useful for me, but its just so underpaid.

    It’s quite a niche area and other better paid jobs I’ve been looking at would mean me relocating and starting again in a new city. I don’t really want to do that, especially as I’m looking at using my current flexilbilty to work on things outside of work and perhaps transition out of the industry conpletely in a few years.

    Is this a case where its better to just suck it up and wait it out and hope I can be earning more in another year? Even the promoted role would be underpaid, but I could live with it. I’m struggling to not be annoyed by my current duties and how little I’m compensated for them though. Given recent minimum wage increases and lack of pay incresses at my organisation, the gap between my wage and minimum wage is fast closing, making it feel even less worth the effort.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      From what you are saying your only reason for leaving would be salary. Is there any chance of making the argument that you are underpaid in your organization, and requesting a pay raise as per Alison’s scripts/advice? Are you underpaid compared to similar roles in similar cities but.. not in your city?

      1. Ess*

        I’m underpaid compared to the same role in organisations in my area of the country or similar cities. The organisation I work at is the only one of its type in my city – so nothing to really compare it with there.

        Unfortunately, there’s zero chance of me negotiating a pay rise in that way. My only option is to wait for a year and hope they see fit to give me one. The main thing I’d like is some kind of guarantee that I won’t spend another year there and have no pay off at the end of it. But they cannot and will not give guarantees.

        I’m struggling on my current wage and don’t want to keep dragging this out if it isn’t going to end in a pay increase, but my gut tells me I want to stay for a while longer.

    2. Chrysanthemum's The Word*

      My rule of thumb is always to stay at a job until it is no longer working for you. If you weigh the pay and flexibility you get now against the negatives of changing (relocating, starting over, etc.)…how do they stack up? Can you use this time to build your skills and resume which will help a future transition?

      I stayed at an underpaid position for almost 10 years because the convenience factor of my commute and the fact that while my pay was not greatly increasing my job level did and allowed me eventually to move on to a position at a higher level elsewhere.

      1. Ess*

        Yeah, I think it is still working for me. I just feel a bit trapped because I want to stay, but I really can’t sustain my life on that wage much longer. I interviewed for a similar role but more junior and, in my opinion, more boring and my heart wasn’t in it despite the fact it would have been more than 25% pay increase. My head keeps getting turned my these jobs, but I don’t want to leave I guess, I just want my compensation to be more reasonable.

  178. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Somehow, despite writing and editing teapots and keeping to a routine, roles & responsibilities were reshuffled for everyone and somehow I find myself on a new project with teapot attorneys. I’ve never worked firsthand with actual parrot attorneys before (I mean, I have worked with non-practicing attorney buddy before, but these are the real deal). Meetings that were scheduled for 1 hour turn into 1.5 hours, and parrots seem to be wanting 90% of my time despite the fact they were only allocated 40% of my time by my boss (there are only 2 parrots for a huge backlog of parrot work). How do I enjoy the new project and help my current team, without being used as labor to fill the parrot backlog?

  179. Karen from Finance*

    This is late in this thread but I just want to vent a little bit. I just did an online Excel test for a potential employer, the same that had sent me a kind of IQ test (um, “PI cognitive assessment”) last week (they haven’t sent me the results yet, either).

    A. What is it with all of this testing?
    B. I’m frustrated that so much of this testing is timed, as someone who works well even under pressure but not under this feeling of vigilance.
    C. Am I right to assume that this is the type of pressure they put on their workers, or is it just a weird HR thing? Is an employer who sends potential employees not one but TWO “you won’t have time to answer all of these questions but we want to see how far you get” tests one that will have people constantly under stress? Because if so I’m nope-ing the hell outta there before I even get in.
    D. I’m frustrated at myself for having left out some important clarifications in the email I was allowed to sent (under, again, a time frame) with clarifications. It’s not really a good sample of how I work, at all.

    Anyway, thanks for your time.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      My guess is that the timed part of it is to prevent the applicant from getting help/looking up answers.

    2. MsM*

      I think a slightly modified version of C (“how representative are these tests of the culture/work?”) is a fair question to ask at the next stage of the interview process. Or if they try to assign you another one.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They sent them separately!? That’s bizarre. Our tests are bundled, it’s tailored to the job. So a shop worker isn’t getting the Excel portion and their cognitive section is more for reliability than problem solving techniques.

      I had to do a cognitive, Excel and typing test but it was all sent in one link to do at once. They’re timed mostly for efficiency purposes and so that you don’t just google all the questions for the answers ;) They’re trying to test your raw knowledge more than ‘Of course I can google how to make a new page in Excel” factor.

      We don’t forward the test results, I only found mine when I started and am the HR department, so I found mine when I was organizing files in the beginning. I’m not sure if that’s the norm or not though, it seems like you’d get the results but I just sat there like “I think I did bad tho…I will never know, argh.”

      It’s not indicative of how they work though, it is most likely just a screening tool and HR thing. I would save that judgement and questioning from when you’re talking to live humans at the place! Processes are just mundane and don’t really give you much insight into the company inner workings!

      1. Karen from Finance*

        That’s reassuring, thanks.

        Yes, they were separate, but I was expecting them to, because they had anticipated it in the interview. The cognitive one was outsourced from a specialized company but my would-be boss sat down and designed the Excel one. He said he wanted to send us a simple exercise to see how we “solved” having to put together a report given some data, and I was unironically like “oh, fun”.

        They’re timed mostly for efficiency purposes and so that you don’t just google all the questions for the answers ;) They’re trying to test your raw knowledge more than ‘Of course I can google how to make a new page in Excel”

        See, the way you say it sounds so reasonable, but this is what had frustrated me. When you’re working, you’re going to be able to google and stuff, and funnily enough, a lot of people don’t know to quickly google technical solutions in excel and such. And through experience I’ve found that ability to go “I don’t know that but let me take 5 minutes to learn it” to be more valuable than seeing how fast someone can type.

        But I do see your point, and you’ve helped me cool down, again. Thank you.

        So whether I get the job or not, do you think I can ask for my test results for personal reference when the company gives me their answer? (I think this is the last stage in their process; I’ve already met them).

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          His specialized Excel test makes so much more sense when you explained it. I was just thinking basic Excel that they offer which is so unhelpful to even really detect if someone knows the program at all.

          Everyone in the universe swears they are “proficient in Excel” and 85% seem to be lying liars in my experience. So it makes sense, especially if you’re using it to create reports that they want to really get that exercise in there.

          Being the outside perspective and someone who has seen the first part of “argh wtf are these tests even?” to the end result play out in a reasonable fashion gives me that “hindsight” factor to share with you. Being stuck in the stressful situation where your emotions are already heightened and you’re patience thin makes it easier to start leaning towards the “Ef this nonsense,byeeeee” response. I’m about 18 months removed from the job search, it’s fresh enough in my mind that I totally get both sides for the time being and am happy to try to be the calming force for those in the middle of the forest :)

          I’m also the designated person that my family goes to to be talked off ledges so my natural state is to rationalize, haha!

          I don’t think that it’s out of line to ask for the results one way or another! Especially if it’s just a “Thank you for the offer and out of curiosity can I have my results?” or “Thank you for the opportunity, for my own reference may I have my results?” kind of interaction it seems totally reasonable to me as a hiring manager.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            Oh I know what you mean about people swearing they are proficient in Excel. I’ve seen people who have told me this, and then asked me the most basic things. That’s why in job interviews I’m very specific: “I feel like I’m advanced, but of course there’s always room to learn in Excel. At the moment I will Pivot as much as I can, and I’m learning my way though PowerQuery and creating data connections. I’m comfortable looking up and using macros, but not coding them from scratch”. I feel like this is much more useful than just saying “advanced” which.. I think some Excel users aren’t even aware of how much you can do with the program so they overestimate their abilities.

            But yeah, I had hoped to at least have a couple of hours to really show off the more elegant solutions I know I’m capable of, instead of a “oh I usually would nest a bunch of IF formulas inside each others but because I don’t have time I just did it manually and also I forgot to add this as a comment in the email in the alloted time because I panicked”. Hence my frustration of “… is this really what they need?”

            But again, mostly a heat-of-the-moment response. I’m sure it will be fine. Thanks again.

    4. Maya Elena*

      It’s hard to say with the specific test, but if you’ve every graded student papers in anything quantitative (and not even quantitative), you can tell the bimodal distribution between “knows what they’re doing/ is thinking” and “has no clue”. Now, the former can range from “perfect in perfect handwriting” to “making stupid algebra mistakes”, but the latter just resemble flailing desperately in the dark with no clue. I know because I’ve been the grader and the student on both sides of this coin.

      I’m guessing the skills tests at least are very much a “pass-fail” type – they want to see you’re not completely clueless, but probably don’t care about minor in-elegance or typos in the Excel exercise, and perfect 100 (or whatever) on the IQ-like one. It’s more like, “can you actually read?” I’d guess they’re more interested in “Can you actually read, count, and reason at a basic level?”

  180. BlueAnon*

    Resume question – I’ve been revamping my resume as I’m about to hit the job market to see what’s out there. My industry has a lot of metrics based KPIs and I will say that my personal KPIs are pretty impressive on paper. I want to add some of these to my resume in some way, think “teapot production increased XX%” “XX new teapot designs taken to market.” They don’t fall under a particular job/role, per se – more relevant to my career as a whole/my tenure with my current company. What is a good header for this kind of section on a resume? Proof of Performance, By the Numbers, etc don’t quite seem right.

  181. Sally Sparrow*

    I just started a new job (mid March). I negotiated my April vacation – 6 days – already. Alas it won’t be paid (which is fine). However that leaves me with 22 days of PTO (vacation and sick) for the rest of the year that HAS to be used this calendar.

    I am worried about looking out of touch (partially because of this unpaid April vacation). On the surface would it raise some eyebrows to take another 5-6 day vacation this summer (July/August) and then potentially take a day or two a few weeks later (my parents want to visit). SO is a teacher so we really pack a lot into school breaks. After August, I wouldn’t take anymore significant time off until sometime around Christmas/New Year’s.

    I just worry because I’m the new person that it will reflect poorly on me, even though I HAVE to use it. Also, FWIW, if this even happens I would plan it around whatever work projects are going on this summer

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Is there any way they’ll allow you to take the April leave as advanced leave?

      I don’t think a week off in the summer would raise eyebrows. People go on leave. Unless you’re working in a culture where people DON’T take leave, I wouldn’t sweat it.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        Nope, my manager tried to get HR/Finace to let me take it as paid. Ironically this means I get the full 28 days of leave this year (instead of my prorated amount), just the first 6 are unpaid. My understanding is that it’s not an issue of accrual but an issue of policy and new hires can’t take paid leave for the first 2 months.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When I started at this company, I told them of a previously scheduled & paid-for family vacation while we finalized everything. I volunteered to take it without pay because it was within my first 4 weeks. All was cool.
      As the week off approached, I told my immediate department I was going and cheerfully said “It’s way too soon for me to get paid for it of course, but they wanted me to start in May even if I had already planned to be out of state in June.” It seemed to be enough to satisfy everyone.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Well, you don’t really HAVE to use it, don’t you? I mean, I’m not a fan of throwing away vacation time, but if you’re truly worried about how it’s going to look, you could just… not use it, right?

    4. knork*

      It doesn’t have to be used. It just goes away if you don’t use it, but then they give you more. Lots and lots of people don’t take their full allotment of vacation time.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If they’re giving you 22 days to use and are in a use-it-or-lose-it loop, it’s not going to be out of touch to use your benefits and not just accept that you lose them!

      We have hired people on and they’ve had events they took as unpaid pre-planned, then they had other events that were still pre-planned when their PTO kicked in. So they essentially used all their PTO and a few unpaid days, it didnt’ make anyone flinch.

      Pre-planned absences are the easiest to work with. It’s if you are prone to having a lot of emergencies on top of that preplanning that may start being dicey and bad optics. But using your benefits and negotiating to start out is just typical!

    6. NACSACJACK*

      The one caveat I wonder is if you have a carryover policy? If you do, you could carry X days over to the next year and just say I didn’t use all my vacation. Otherwise, if it’s company policy that you get all 28 days and that you can’t use it in the first two months, I’m sure everyone in the company knows about it and can guess you’re taking your April vacation unpaid. If someone asks, how are you able to take vacation when you just started, just tell them it was pre-planned and it’s unpaid. They’ll sympathize at the loss of income.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        No, there is no carry over. If there were I wouldn’t be so concerned. It would be nice if it were.

    7. Overeducated*

      If some of it is supposed to be sick time, you don’t HAVE to use it, and maybe should save some just in case of illnesses.

      That said, I think if this is ok with your boss and not too out of step with office norms, a week in the spring and a week in the summer is not that unreasonable. No way to find out but to ask.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        My plan is to reserve 5-6 days as sick days. Then if I don’t get sick use them (around nonmajor times) in November and December. If 1 or 2 days get lost that’s not a big deal.

    8. Psyche*

      It sounds like you are talking about taking about 8 days off out of a total of 22 days PTO. That doesn’t sound crazy. Even if you add in the other 6 days, that’s 14 days. The only question is how much time you plan to take off at the end of the year. Some of those days are meant to be sick days, so if you are taking a week off at Christmas it might be a bit much.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        I am weird and don’t actually like taking a week off for Christmas, so it will probably be about 3 days (4 with the holiday). Also because my thought process is that 3/4 days is easier to ask and increases my chances of it being approved even if my boss or CW are also gone for some of that time. Its also why I’m not taking time off around Thanksgiving.

        1. valentine*

          Just follow the rules about asking in advance and ask now if you already know which days you want. Don’t surrender your PTO. Enjoy.

  182. roisin54*

    The Big Boss of the Library today announced that they’re going to form an exploratory committee to look into starting a librarian on horseback program. FWIW, my library is in a big city with lots of narrow sidewalks and roads in a region that gets Winter. And there isn’t really any kind of horseback riding culture here. And for even more context, we currently have about half of our collection inaccessible due to various tech issues and renovations, with no end dates in sight for anything coming back.

    This is absurd, right? Or am I a fuddy duddy and this is brilliant? It just makes zero sense to me.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is it possible they intended to schedule that email to be read Monday April 1?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That sounds an awful lot like a not-properly-scheduled April Fools email to me as well.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I definitely giggled a bit. Possibly because I 100% rode my horse to my high school on Bring Your Tractor To School Day, as I didn’t have a tractor, but did have a horse. And I have also rode my horse thru a McDonald’s drive thru, much to the confused entertainment of the drive thru staff. (Horsie got an ice cream cone for being a good boy and not chewing on the signs.)

    2. CAA*

      It sounds like something out of Jasper Fforde’s Thursday Next books. Perhaps he is planning to relocate to “Little House on the Prairie”.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      What’s today’s verdict – was it a prank gone awry? Or are they really getting weird?

      1. roisin54*

        If it’s an April fools joke, they haven’t said so yet. As far as I can tell they are 100% serious on this.

  183. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Ah that sinking feeling when you ask someone an either-or question and they answer “Yes”….

    1. Kathenus*

      I had a former boss who did this all the time. I had to learn to send emails that only offered a single yes or no. Didn’t matter how I worded it, if there was ever any type of question along the lines of ‘ would you like me to do A or B’ – the answer was always yes or no. So I had to send one email – would you like me to do A, get an answer, and if needed send another asking about B. Frustrating, but all part of setting up the communication for success and not getting stuck on the things that I couldn’t control like how he responded.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I have a friend that does this so often that the rest of us call that type of a response a [Her Name] Answer.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I’m going to be both embarrassed and laughing if you happen to be her with how close your name is!

    3. Overeducated*

      One of my parents AND my spouse both do this frequently. They are both a little pedantic sometimes and I guess like to lean on the fact that in formal logic, if either part of an “or” statement is true, the entire statement is. I find it so annoying because they have also spoken vernacular American English long enough to understand what “or” means in common speech.

      1. just a random teacher*

        If you’re dealing with formal pedants, can you just start saying XOR (exclusive or) instead of or? It’d work with my local pedant population, who also respond well to clarifying iff instead of if for “if and only if”. However, I grew up speaking the Sarcastic Engineer dialect at home…

    4. Admin of Sys*

      If it happens frequently, I’ve found it can be helpful to set up the options as “we’re doing option A unless you’d rather do B”

  184. Database Developer Dude*

    The perils of an open office, x1000: Was on a team until recently. Seven people, one female the rest of us males. The female is young and attractive. She also has an iPhone. I’ve got an Android phone. This is relevant.

    Team outing at a local bar (no one objects, we all drank). All of a sudden, female colleague gets a dick pic AirDropped to her phone. First words out of her mouth are “[my name] what the hell?”. Here’s the thing: she’s half my age, got nothing I want, and I know better than to engage in that stupid, pervy behavior anyway, especially with SOMEONE I WORK WITH…. granted, you shouldn’t be doing that to anyone at all, but doing it to someone you work with is a special kind of stupid.

    Thankfully, after I pointed out that I have an Android, and therefore don’t have AirDrop, she backed down, and looked around the bar for who might have done it. If she hadn’t, and had demanded to see my phone, do I have any recourse?

    Also, this is NOT a racial issue, even though she’s white and I’m black. One of the other males on the team is black, another is Hispanic. I’m just 20+ years older than everyone else on the team.

        1. nutella fitzgerald*

          I thought that was why we were given the ages and ethnicities as clues. Was this not meant as an Encyclopedia Brown-type exercise?

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I assumed that’s why race was included, but I guess I’m not familiar enough with a variety male genitalia that I’d be able to tell the age of someone from a quick dick pick!

        1. valentine*

          When someone demands to see your phone, you say no. Doesn’t matter who it is. You will only surrender your phone to your attorney on their advice, and they will arrange for anything relevant to go to a special noun that will determine whether the stuff is rleevant to the case and should be provided to the prosecution.

          Saying she has nothing you want is excessive. You can just say she wronged you.

    2. nutella fitzgerald*

      I can’t get past the idea that she Poiroted her way to an accusation from a picture of some disembodied genitalia of a particular age and color. What a world we live in.

  185. Decima Dewey*

    Greetings from the library. Yesterday we had our cluster meeting, and learned that Grandboss, who had been acting, has asked to become our permanent Grandboss. Yay! Grandboss has ordered t-shirts with the system logo and the name of our cluster for all 6 branches in her color. This is so we can “represent” on All Staff Day. I now have t-shirts with the system logo and our cluster name in green, orange, and blue. So instead of shopping for a new outfit for All Staff, it’ll be Cobalt Blue T-shirt and a pair of pants that go with it.

    The library system is switching over to a new timekeeping system. We still have timesheets to fill out each workday, but now instead of staff being listed by Employee ID number (basically by seniority), we’re now listed alphabetically by last name. Payroll used to have all fulltime workers shifted entered automatically, with only exceptions to worry about. Now everything has to be entered by Payroll for everyone. We were told part-timers would now be paid a maximum of 7 1/2 hours each day, instead of 8 hours as before, then that ukase was rescinded.

    We’re still trying to document Perpetually Late Guy’s actual hours, and Boss has started the process for disciplinary action. It should have been addressed over a decade ago, but previous Grandbosses handled problems by moving people around and hoping problem employees would improve somehow.

    I have to submit my project by end of business on Tuesday, but I still have to do a poster on what I learned on a Trifold thing to be displayed on All Staff Day. There will also be bakeoffs, painting classes, “breakout sessions”, etc before it’s all over for another year.

  186. lurker_variable*

    A bit late to the thread but would appreciate some advice. I started a new job <6 months ago and it is not a good fit. I asked a lot of questions in the interview process but the responses I got then don't align with the reality of the job now. Also the company culture is very territorial and cliquey, which makes it hard to get things done. I ended up interviewing at another company this week and I think it went well.
    My question is, if I end up going to the other company, is there a way to leave this one without totally burning my bridges? I like my manager as a person, and I talked to him about this role not being what I expected and suggested possible solutions (didn't help), so he knows I'm not very happy; but I moved for this job so I think he'll be pretty shocked if I leave. I'm also concerned that he'll get some blow back about it from his management since I was reluctant to move and they worked hard to convince me to come here. Any words of wisdom?

    1. Mazzy*

      Don’t worry, I don’t think they are going to be mad at you, or whatever the concern is, because it is a bad fit, in your own words.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      There’s really nothing you need to do other than give appropriate notice and tie up as many loose ends as you can. I’m leaving my current job after 5 months in the role and less than 6 weeks after going from temp to permanent, and while I know I’m leaving them in a bit of a lurch (two out on maternity leave, one of whom is not coming back, and my boss is also juggling personal/family issues), no one has been anything but gracious about it – they’re even throwing me a goodbye lunch.

      1. lurker_variable*

        Thanks! You’re right; I’ve been on the other side of this with having a colleague hired who ends up not being a good fit, and it’s better for people to just move on. I haven’t been in this position before though and have been stressing about it. Thanks for affirming that most people will be fine with it, and if there is a lot of blowback then it’s all the more reason to get out.

    3. Database Developer Dude*

      Did they pay for your move to take the job? If not, they’ve got no standing to be mad at you. You went to a lot of expense to take a job that was misrepresented to you. You gave it almost six months, and it’s not a good fit. They shouldn’t expect anything more.

  187. Jack Be Nimble*

    I have a forgetful and unreliable coworker who’s almost certainly interviewing elsewhere (he’s been taking a lot of time off and wears a jacket on the days he leaves early). If he leaves, I might be able to apply for his job, which would mean more money and responsibilities, so I’m trying to send good interview vibes his way!

  188. Hopeful Interviewer*

    A little late to this today, but I have a final round interview coming up. I’m definitely qualified for the position, and I’ve had 3 interviews with 4 different people (1st was 2-on-1) including upper level management. My final interview is in-person, and its with 3/4 people I’ve already talked to. I’ve prepped pretty extensively for each step (Thank you Alison!), and have tried to use different anecdotes for each person, but I’m kind of running out of new questions to prep and new anecdotes so I’m not repeating myself to them! I’m 2 years out of college and my past jobs had pretty informal processes, so I’m not that experienced. Any tips on really going the extra mile for the final round//what might await me and how I can prepare?

    1. lurker_variable*

      Congrats on getting to the final interview! When I interview people, a big part of what I want to find out is whether they’d be a good fit with the team, so be authentic. If they asked more technical questions in earlier rounds, this round may be more of a behavioral question/get to know you round. If you’re not a good fit, you don’t want the job (trust me, I’m there now). If you’ve already talked to them and are 2 years out of college, they’re probably not going to be asking for more ancedotes, e.g. tell me about a time you had to give someone critical feedback.

      A couple of questions I like to ask interviewers: how would you describe the company culture? and what makes you excited or happy to work here? I ask every person because different responses can be very informative. Try to steer clear of the HR type questions, eg vacation time, work from home policy, etc., since you should get that as part of the offer package and can always ask during negotiation.

      Hope this helps and good luck!

  189. anon for this*

    My coworker is on a diet and she has been eating this awful-smelling concoction for lunch all week. The best way I can describe the smell is if someone died six months ago and no one noticed. And that the person also had a fish tank that went untended for those six months. Every day, she has been cutting open a plastic bag about the size of a pop-tart and emptying it into a bowl at her desk before taking it to the kitchen to microwave it. Even the noise of it going into the bowl is terrible. It sounds as though she cut open one of those squishy jellyish ice packs and is squeezing the semisolid gloop into the bowl. The smell lingers for the entire day because she throws the packaging into her desk trash can. I can’t even be mad at her because I genuinely feel bad that she is eating this horrible amalgam.

    1. Mazzy*

      OMG this is BAD! I had one very fussy in our office recently make some vegetable soup that, to put it in as classy a way as I can, smelt like excrement. It was so, so very bad and stunk up the office, and we opened the windows. Thankfully that was an option. But my coworker just seemed oblivious to the whole thing.

    2. Kathenus*

      I love your creative writing, it conjures up a horrible yet compelling image of the smell. And I like your empathy for her eating such a thing.

    3. Margaret*

      I realize you weren’t really asking for advice – but can you ask her to throw away the packet in the kitchen, at least? I don’t even like to throw away my own food packaging, if it has any kind of smell/moisture on it, in my desk trash can, because I hate the lingering food smell (even of foods that I enjoyed eating!) for the rest of the day. It’s not even about the food being a bad smell itself, just about having *a* food smell lingering all day is annoying.

  190. Environmental Compliance*

    Mini-vent eyeroll sharing:

    Parent Company Guy gets a weird invoice in the mail, with absolutely no information on it, that says we have to pay $400 to ‘stay in compliance with our annual reporting’. Doesn’t say for what agency, what company sent it, what report, or anything. Obviously spam. Even from the wrong state (and wrong region, for that matter). He sends out a caution email to a couple relevant staff members (like myself) to say hey, saw this, just be aware, looks like a spam is going around, no big deal, just keep on the lookout. Thanks, bud!

    And then someone decided to fwd that email *with no context*, cc all of us originals AND like 15 more random people. 15 random people PANIC to the high heavens that we are now somehow out of compliance with …..something….., start cc’ing in other people, leading to more panic. 238942 emails later, someone finally put in all caps that we are NOT out of compliance this is a SPAM, it has been addressed, HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, it was definitely aight ya’ll, I know it’s a Friday, it’s the afternoon….but couldja not???!

        1. CAA*

          I hope it’s over, and you don’t have another round when all the people who were out today and like to read and respond to email in the order it was received show up to work on Monday morning.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            It is, thankfully. Person Who All Caps’d was one of the company lawyers. I enjoy her a lot, lol.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      And this is why I was not the least bit surprised to read about the guy who got caught (a couple of years ago, just plead guilty which is why it’s back in the news) defrauding Facebook and Google out of hundreds of millions of dollars by sending them bogus bills that the companies just…went ahead and paid.

      1. just a random teacher*

        Ever since the time many years ago that I, a $10-an-hour temp with no particular training or experience, was put in charge of figuring out which of the assorted pile of accumulated and in many cases overdue bills from law firms needed to be paid by [department that needed to hire lawyers in random counties all over the nation based on state laws about what needed to be conducted by lawyers in person] department at [Large Bank That You Have Definitely Heard Of], stories like that don’t surprise me at all.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, I think this particular scam relied on saying scary compliance-related words a lot so that it looked Important. Plus, to the company, $400 isn’t really a lot, so I could easily see someone just paying it and shrugging.

  191. WKRP*

    So my boss used to run my department. Now she manages my department and two others. I am no win charge of my department. Yet, the staff still go to her with stuff. She still assigns them stuff. I’m basically a defacto team lead with a better title. I suppose I shouldn’t complain, but I feel like a lame-duck manager.

    1. CAA*

      Talk to your boss! Point out to her that she’s undercutting you by continuing to do the things that are really your job now. Ask her to help you become a better manager by redirecting the staff members to you whenever they go to her, and by letting you handle the work assignments. You can approach this conversation from the point of view that she might not realize that she’s doing this and that it’s having an effect on you and your standing with the people you manage.

  192. Sammie*

    At my annual review recently my boss tried to tell me that I do such-and-such a thing because I’m a ‘2’ (Enneagrams). Now, she has had a tendency to use these in ways that I have felt were inappropriate but I’m still in awe that, even after I asked her not to do that with me, she does not realize how lazy it is to make assumptions about people based on some completely unscientific personality quiz assigning some of my behaviors a certain number. I have had some substantial issues with her in my time at this job, but I actually lost a bit of respect for her in that moment – which was sad.

    1. BrilliantMistake*

      Well, I’m a 1, and I love enneagrams! Ha! What number is your boss?
      Yes, I know using personality programs to pigeonhole people can be generally unhelpful. I had a friend who did some sort of color personality test at a bigger law firm, found out she was a “blue” or a “green” or whatever and tried to explain her bad behavior using the assessment.
      But for people I know well, I can say that ennegrams have helped me be more understanding of how they relate to the world. But the key is that it’s for people I know well. And I’m always open to why it doesn’t explain anything!

    2. lurker_variable*

      OMG. Those types of “personality” tests were popular at my old job at team offsites etc, and I found it particularly infuriating because it was a science based company and the enneagram is even worse than myers-briggs (if you want empirical based personality theory, look at the Big Five factors). People aren’t a category, they’re a continuum. /rant
      I think that comment would be enough to make me start looking for a new job.

  193. nutella fitzgerald*

    Can anyone suggest a system to keep track of jobs you’ve applied for? I’ve been casually looking since the fall, and I think I’m starting to see jobs I already applied for being reposted. I’ve only been keeping a list of the company and the title each time I submit a resume since the descriptions are so long – should I be hanging on to more information?

    1. Deb Morgan*

      Here’s what I track (in a word doc or excel spreadsheet or even a draft email will do):
      1. Company name
      2. Job title
      3. Job description (just copy/paste the whole thing, it really comes in handy later!)
      4. Date I submitted my application/resume/cover letter
      5. Where I saw the job posting (Indeed, Craigslist, company website, etc.)
      6. Notes about any follow up (Did they call me for a phone screen? Did I get an email saying they were reviewing my materials? etc.)
      This may be overkill if you’re just casually looking, but saving job descriptions has been pretty vital for me.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Whenever I apply for a job, I start a new folder on my computer titled (date jobtitle) and save the job description, the copy of the resume I tweaked to submit, my cover letter, and the PDFs I uploaded for both.

      It’s helpful in that it keeps everything organized by each job AND it reduces you accidentally attaching the wrong resume/cover letter to the applicant tracking system, because the whole folder is just for that job.

  194. Curious*

    Hey, so I’m currently looking for a new job (the current company is family run with a really bad employee retention rate for good reason), but I’m struggling to explain a few things on my cover letter. The vast majority of my work experience is in customer service of one kind or another, but I’m trying to get into a different field. One of my last jobs was as a 911 operator which naturally was very stressful and I feel extremely anxious any time I have to take external calls now because of it (and yes I am already in counselling). How do I explain in my cover letter that while yes I do have a ton of experience in this field, I am not interested in taking on any other jobs like it without it sounding weird or too TMI?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Well, your cover letter should be specific to the job listing, so it really doesn’t need to come up more than a vague statement on “this job/new field excites me because…..”. I don’t think you need to justify leaving a field of work in a cover letter – that space should be used to show how awesome you’d be at the position you’re applying for.

    2. CAA*

      Do not explain what you don’t want to do in a cover letter. Apply for the jobs that you do want to do and explain how your skills and experience will allow you to excel at those jobs. Maybe you’re great at quickly understanding and prioritizing problems because you honed that skill during your time as a 9-1-1 operator, so say that you will put that skill to use while you’re triaging tickets in an IT system … or while evaluating resumes as an HR recruiter … or while doing software QA testing … or whatever is relevant in the job you’re applying for.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      Highlight your strengths in aspects you have learned in customer service that can be applied to different fields, things like problem-solving on the fly, being quick on your feet, attention to detail, and guiding a situation (as customer service reps often have to politely but firmly ask the right questions to ascertain the problem, find a solution all while staying friendly to the customer). Also you probably know how to operate different kinds of office software. This depends on the job you’re applying to, but just try to see what in your experience would fit that position, and really highlight that.

      I would apply for lower level admin positions, though beware that you may need to answer phones in some of them, and they will be lower in the pecking order. But they won’t be customer service, so you’ll have something else on your resume, and with that experience, you can probably move up or at least jump to a job that no longer includes customer-facing as much. Admin can also be fairly wide in terms of tasks and responsibilities so you will learn a lot in those kinds of jobs.

      I did a similar jump where I highlighted my skills, not in customer service, but adjacent to it, then pivoted to wanting to learn new skills and gain more responsibility. I’m an admin of sorts now, I still answer phones, but it’s much less customer facing and more stress free.

      Good luck!

  195. Cog in the Machine*

    Hello all.
    Does anyone have any advice for when everyone in the chain who can enforce changes knows about an issue (our leased building, in this case), but won’t do anything about it? My boss is willing to send problems up to his boss, but nothing ever seems to happen from there. Tbf, I don’t know where the stall is happening. There are a lot of levels to go through.

  196. Elizabeth West*

    Good luck to everyone who is job searching this week and congrats to everyone who found one!

    I have nothing to report. Although I think if I could do the financials and had any entrepreneurial / marketing savvy whatsoever, I would freelance-write job descriptions, because DAMN. So many people suck at it!

    Also, hilarious–I might have posted this already, but back at the beginning of the month, there was a job post on Indeed with this at the beginning:
    Test test testasd;fljsdf;jd;fladjfl;sdjflsdfljsdfljsdfjsdfjsdlfjsdlfasdl;jk

    Hahaha! :’D

  197. Curious Canuck*

    Minor question that I’ve been turning over lately. I live in Canada, where marijuana is now legal. How will office culture transition to discussing pot in the same context as alcohol?

    I have no problem telling my coworkers I had a glass of wine the night before or talking about happy hour. But smoking seems to be in a whole other category. Even though it’s legal and seemingly pretty common.

    No real question I guess, just an observation. For now there’s one other woman in my office that I deduced smokes pot, and we sometimes privately make small talk about it. But not around other people. :)

    1. just a random teacher*

      I live in the US in a state where pot’s been legalized for a while at the state level. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it discussed at work outside of the context of students getting caught with it (still not ok even though it’s legal for adults), nor is it something I’ve seen brought to, say, staff barbecues. On the other hand, I know exactly which of my fellow teachers and their spouses share my particular taste in beer, and we regularly have alcohol at offsite staff things (no alcohol is allowed on district property, even after hours when students aren’t there).

      On the other hand, the non-work-related nonprofit org I’m on the board for and spend a lot of time at various meetings for seems to have a culture where pot is talked about in a similar way to alcohol. This org isn’t particularly “professional” in a lot of ways, though, and I’m relatively new to this org, so for all I know they talked like that before it was legal too. (The other cultural org I used to hang out with certainly did, but they were a bunch of boomer-age niche musicians, so…) (I would love it if we had a thread here particularly about Nonprofit Weirdness one of these days. I both have stories and would love to hear what’s common versus just the orgs I’m used to.)

  198. Free Meerkats*

    A quick update on coworker with the brain tumor.

    He stopped in today; he’s been cleared to drive and work, just waiting for paperwork from the doctor. Of course, HR is clueless about where to get the form he needs. He sees his neurosurgeon this afternoon.

    We should be back at full (well, 3/4) strength on Monday! It’s been a long 2 months.

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      thank you for the update…. clearance is a very good thing, and he must be feeling better to stop in?

  199. You were at my wedding, Denise*

    UPDATE from last week: I confronted my boss about the misuse of a gift card that was designated for an event but instead she gave it to a volunteer for their retirement.

    Originally she was appreciative, but then she went downhill.

    She thanked me, in an organization wide email (there’s only 7 of us), for being able to confront her and since she’s all about transparency, it reinforced what she was hoping to build in the organization. EXCEPT in subsequent emails, only to me, she said
    Email 1: some flimsy story that didn’t make sense about her being confused and not realizing what she was doing
    Email 2: she was fully aware of what a designated gift was and that she knew how to do her job, not needing me to oversee her (since I’ve done her job before in a previous non-profit).

    Then the next day she wandered in and LOUDLY proclaimed that she bought a replacement gift card. Joy – everything is saved and the world is good.

    Let’s say that her passive aggressiveness is not a surprise but disappointing.

    1. Not Alison*

      Why did you have to “confront” her? Why not have a discussion with her in a nonconfrontation manner?

      1. just a random teacher*

        I’m not the OP, but it takes two people’s commitment to have a discussion in a non-confrontational manner, and only one person’s decision to turn that into a confrontation. It would not surprise me if the kind of person who would mis-appropriate a directed gift (which would be a Very Big Deal any relevant place I’d been) would also be the kind of person where any discussion of said fact would end up being confrontational by the end of it. Also, it’s a major “what were you thinking?” kind of thing to do, so…confrontation is likely because it’s hard to ask that in a non-confrontational way, in the same way it’s hard to ask a total stranger what they’re doing in your kitchen at 2 am in a non-confrontational way even if you are not a person who is generally seeking confrontation.

        1. valentine*

          It sounded like you issued the gift card at her direction, instead of saying no and why. If so, the first bit might’ve been avoided.

          You can report her for the backbiting retaliation.

      2. Someone Else*

        What’s the nonconfrontational version of “you may not realize this, but you just did something very illegal and we could be in big trouble in an audit”? Even if said in the kindest, matter of fact, non-blamey tone, boss clearly still outwardly acted like it was the appropriate thing to have said (which it was), but then subsequently got all “how dare you assume I don’t know what I’m doing”.

  200. Lynne879*

    I FINALLY had THREE job interviews recently! All on the same day & I have another one coming up in two weeks!

    The first interview was a phone interview & I thought that went well. The second interview was ok, but I knew right away that I wouldn’t fit in with the company. The third interview was for the job I really wanted, but it was an hour and a half long… which I thought was a little ridiculous for an entry-level position. The first half of the interview I think I did ok, but I bombed the second half of the interview. I’m assuming that I’m not getting an offer for any of these jobs, so I’m trying to think of them as “practice” interviews.

  201. NotAnotherManager!*

    I have been asked to prepare a short presentation for new hires about our office culture and workplace norms in our industry/office. I don’t want to insult people by being too basic (e.g., don’t take a personal call on your cell while receiving an assignment – though, true story) but let them know some essential things (like we don’t ever leave things on people’s desks – the messy deskers will never see it, the neat deskers get annoyed by the clutter).

    As a new employee (especially one new to a field or the work world in general), what would you want to know?

    1. De Minimis*

      Maybe basic stuff like mail delivery, policy for visitors to the office, and that example you give about not leaving things on people’s desks is good.

      Might be too involved for a short presentation, but a “Who Does What” would be good at some point.

      1. valentine*

        No sitting on other people’s desks. Smelly trash in kitchen or outside office, not at desks.

    2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      Make sure that whenever you have a “don’t” like “don’t leave things on someone’s desk” – that you also include how you DO want it handled. So if I, as a new employee, have documents to get to Jane before the end of the week, and she’s not at her desk Friday afternoon and it gets to be 4:50 pm and she’s still not around…. tell me what to DO, not just what not to do.

    3. Miss Vaaaanjie*

      ^5 Rhymes with Mitochondria: We have a lot of ‘do not do this’ in life, starting in Kindergarten. Let’s talk about the workplace we want. Do you have workplace values or culture that guides interactions, communications, leadership/followership, etc? I started a new job 6-mos ago and the walk through was ‘dont walk out this door at the end of the day, people will think you’re sneaking out.” “Don’t wear revealing clothes.” “Don’t do this, that and all those things.” It wasn’t a really exciting into to the organization.

      “don’t take a personal call on your cell while receiving an assignment” or “We expect that you’re present and prepared to receive new assignments and the details that go with it. Speaking directly to the coworker who is assigning your the work ensures you know what is expected of you and you wont have to interrupt your work/co worker with unnecessary questions.”

      “we don’t ever leave things on people’s desks” or ‘We respect individual approaches to work. Learn how your co-workers like to receive work back or how to leave work for their input. Everyone appreciates being able to quickly locate their items according to their personal work system.”

      “The kitchen is our ‘fun’ room. We like to keep it free and lively. In order to achieve this, we appreciate a clean kitchen, that’s sanitary and ready for use. Please clean the coffee pot if you’re the last to use it. We clean sweep the fridge every Friday – nameless items are discarded.”

      “Workplace attire is a tricky one, we admit it. So we took a survey (I’ve seen this work really well – survey employees on what they think is appropriate for their workplace) and this is what we came up with.” Makes it pretty easy – no stodgy from the top aesthetics. Peer reviewed and approved.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Make it so the tone is helpful, like “We want you to do well at your job, so here’s some cultural norms here!” versus “Ughh what rock did you idiots crawl under that you don’t know this.”

      One of my pet peeves as a new employee is when people get mad at you for not knowing something you couldn’t possibly know, like internal processes and custom software.

    5. Middle Manager*

      I’m thinking about on boarding right now since I’m hiring and I’m trying to think through this stuff. Depending on the level of experience of the staff I think it is actually important to find a way to say things like “hey, if your boss is giving you an assignment, you don’t answer your phone.” I’m sure that seems basic professionalism to many people, but I think many (most?) managers have also seen shockingly unprofessional behavior. I’d love to see the other comments here though if there a way to make it fun or at least not insulting.

    6. just a random teacher*

      The one thing I remember being really “different than school” as a low-level office worker was that you were not to take things home to finish them! At school, you are told over and over for years by various teachers that if you screw around and don’t get x task finished before the bell rings, it becomes homework. If you are an hourly worker, that is probably not the case, especially if protected financial information is involved! I remember one new temp just causally mentioning he was going to take something home to finish because he was still in that school mindset, and I can definitely see why that happened and also why the supervisor immediately set him straight.

      1. Someone Else*

        This is very interesting to me to read, because the concept of “if you don’t finish before the bell rings it becomes homework” was not at all my experience in school. (Homework was homework. In class work was in class work and if you didn’t finish you had to turn it in incomplete.) So I never would have thought of the “take it home to finish” behavior as being learned from school. It is a good idea to tell people they cannot take stuff home but I don’t know if I’d include the school analogy in it since it won’t make sense to everyone and it doesn’t really matter WHY they think taking it home would be OK, just that they now know it is not.

        1. just a random teacher*

          Interesting! I think it varies widely with local school culture, and probably also by subject and age. (I don’t teach in a regular classroom anymore and the classwork/homework distinction doesn’t make sense in my current context.)

          While going through boxes of old stuff my mom packed up for me from her house, I recently found a bunch of workbooks from elementary school. Apparently, back then they’d send home your workbooks for things like math and handwriting at the end of the school year and your parents were supposed to make you finish them over the summer to “catch up” before the next school year. I do not remember my mom attempting to actually make me do this except for one summer when we had a prolonged battle over handwriting practice. (My handwriting is still terrible, but it turns out I was just an early adopter of the “type everything and have illegible handwriting” trend, so it all worked out eventually.)

  202. Another Manic Monday*

    I’m the “rock star” of the office. A highly productive and reliable employee with a “can-do” attitude and currently doing the job of three full-time employees without breaking a sweat. I’m running circles around my coworkers and I’m basically every boss’ dream employee.

    The problem is that my productivity is not sustainable in the long run. My boss likes to call me “The Machine” because of the large amount of quality work product that I crank out on a daily, but I’m really just a “Human” with very human limits.

    I am on the Autism Spectrum and basically have a “on-or-off” switch in my brain. I’m cannot regulate myself and I’m “all or nothing” on everything I do in life. Currently I’m hyperfocused on my job and work for 10-12 hours a day at a high pace without a single break. Last month, I completed 120 hours of OT and was disappointed that my boss wouldn’t give me more. If I have work in my inbox, I will do my best to complete it before I allow myself to take a break. The problem is that there is ALWAYS work in my inbox.

    I will continue this unsustainable high work pace until I reach complete burnout. It’s not a question if I reach the burnout stage, but when. It worries me, because last time I reached complete burnout: It cost me my military career and I was forced into early medical retirement. It almost cost me my life because it plunged me into a major depression that lasted for several years. I do not want to go back to that dark place again.

    So, my question is: How do I tell my boss that her “machine” is just a frail human being and that she will need to ensure that I don’t get overloaded with work if she want to keep me around for the long haul.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that’s a tricky one. You might be hoping for something from a manager that really needs to come from you. It’s hard enough to expect her to refuse you OT if it would be useful to her; she really can’t clear out your inbox for you.

      Assuming you like your manager, I do think you can have a conversation about changing your pace for a distance run rather than a sprint and sounding her out on what she might be able to do to help you achieve this. But I also think you could and should explore methodologies, whether through therapy or some other means, to set some limits for yourself. Ultimately it’s up to you, not your boss, to make sure you stop working after 8 hours or make peace with the fact that there’s still email in your inbox. I mean, you say that you work 10-12 hours in a day, so something stops you at that 10th or 12th hour. Can you think about moving whatever that something is to a different duration?

      1. Another Manic Monday*

        I get all my own work completed during regular duty hours. During my OT hours , I work on other people’s backlogs while they have gone home for the day. Our whole office is horrendously backlogged and there’s always work to be done. I think that I am the only one in the office who doesn’t have my own backlog because I am always on top of things.

        The reason that I stop at that 10th or 12th hour is because I get physically kicked out of the office. We are only allowed to perform work if a supervisor is present. I must leave when the last supervisor leaves.

        I just don’t know how to regulate myself, my dial is either on 0 or turned up to 11. It’s basically a compulsion. I can’t resist taking on more work as long as they let me.

        I’m actually somewhat sad at the moment because I will not be able to work overtime this weekend. Yes, I am posting here about how I am worried that I will work myself into a total burnout and at the same time sad about not being able to work this weekend.

        2. RVA Cat*

          I hear you so much on this.
          First step is to Sop. Doing. Other. People’s. Work.
          Communicate this with your boss and your team, of course. But that work has been delegated to them for a reason. Your compulsion seems like it’s making your overstep.

    2. LGC*

      …whoo, this is a BIG ONE. I’m wishing you all the best and I want to reiterate that you’re not frail and you are awesome. And honestly, I felt your struggle because I’ve struggled myself with the same thing. (I have the greyhound mentality where I’m either going on all cylinders or crashed out.) So, to keep this from becoming one humongous overwhelming wall of text, I’m going to break it into two parts – first, my reaction, and then advice.

      You’re right in that this is unsustainable, because I need a nap after reading about your work schedule. You work 10-12 hours a day and you pulled 120 hours of overtime last month (I’ll assume you’re FT, so you have a 40 hour work week). It sounds like you’re working 70 hour work weeks – so 10 hours a day, every day of the week. Part of the reason you’re handling the workload of three people is that you’re spending twice as much time at work as a “regular” employee. You might be paid well enough to justify that (if, say, you own an electric car company whose car models form an exceedingly puerile acronym), but I seriously doubt it.

      Moreover, it doesn’t seem like anyone else is working anywhere near the amount you are. You said in your response to fposte that you work on other people’s work when they go home for the day – I’d be a bit more understanding if everyone in your office worked crazy hours, but it seems like most people do their 40 and go home.

      (Finally, you didn’t specify whether you’re getting paid for overtime or not. If you are: I’m glad you have a boss that is that chill with letting you run up an insane amount of OT (in the US, the amount you’d make in OT would be more than your base salary). If you’re not – which I suspect is the case – please stop doing this to yourself.)

      But dude. Please be kind to yourself – I think you already know this, but it really bears repeating. It’ll be okay if you’re not able to save the world or even save your company.

      1. LGC*

        Okay, so now that I got my emotional “PLEASE STOP HURTING YOURSELF OP ILU <3" word vomit out the way:

        I'm just taking a guess, but I think you can definitely approach your boss and say that you've been working 70 hour weeks nonstop and you realize that you need to step back. Your boss, if she is a decent human being, will probably be horrified when she's confronted with this reality and tell you that it's okay to step back a bit. I'd actually bet that she doesn't realize quite how much you're working and how much of a toll it's taking on you – one of the things Alison has mentioned with a lot of people in your situation is that the boss of the employee nearing burnout doesn't always realize how much the employee is doing.

        (And in fact, I've noticed some of my employees working a ton of hours and fretted about it a bit to my boss. She's told me to just let them come to me. And these guys are non-exempt!)

        Do you have anything else to do? Or can you find anything else to do? In my case, training for a marathon made it a lot easier to leave work "on time" in order to get training in (since I'm a night owl and prefer running after work). I'm not suggesting that you sign up to run 26.2 just to make sure you leave work on time (and this is not a guarantee that you will – ask me how I know!), but having somewhere else to be after work can be a powerful motivator.

        Have you considered setting timers? One thing that motivates me is…I’m a train commuter. NJ Transit is…infamously terrible, but also has scheduled departures – so I’ll need to leave at a set time in order to catch the right train. It’s not perfect – it didn’t work for me today, for starters – but having to leave at a set time in order to make it home…helps me leave at a set time to make it home.

        Basically, you want to externalize the off switch. You described yourself as a stellar employee – but a good boss would feel really bad if one of their top producers was running themselves into the ground just for the sake of her deadlines (and would be more okay with missing the deadlines than sacrificing your well-being). Having outside obligations or even just a timer can provide a nudge that – hey – you have something to do that’s not work.

        1. LGC*

          And finally – okay, I did partly say how to tell your boss that you’re not actually a machine and you’re really “a frail human being and that she will need to ensure that I don’t get overloaded with work if she want to keep me around for the long haul,” but most of that was how to prevent yourself from getting overloaded. Because…again, a lot of that is going to have to come from you. From what it sounds like, part of it is your boss giving you a heavier workload…but the majority of it is that you’re taking on your coworkers’ work as well. So she only has limited control over it – she can’t force you to leave unless she’s locking up, and she can’t make you feel less compelled to take on your coworkers’ tasks. I know you feel like you can’t, but I think you’re able to – you already recognize that it’s a problem, which puts you most of the way to solving it.

          And I’ll stop replying to myself for now. I’ve said a ton, and probably too much already.

        2. Another Manic Monday*

          My boss and her boss do have a clue that I have tendency to work too much. They did have a meeting with me two weeks ago after I broke down and started to cry in my cubicle. They did express concern about my unhealthy work-life balance and for a week or so I was taken off OT completely, but now it has started to creep back up again. It’s fully understandable. There’s a lot of work to be done and I’m basically the only one willing to do the hard parts. I guess that I have always been that way as my parents have said that I was always the first one to volunteer for everything as a child.

          Even without OT, I am working much more than my coworkers. They take their regular breaks (15, 30, 15) and stop to socialize and shoot the breeze during their regular work hours. I don’t take breaks and I work as fast as I possible can at all times. I just feel the relentless need to complete all my work before I leave for the day. My coworkers are perfectly fine with leaving work for the next day, but I can’t.

          I don’t have a life outside of work. I spend all my energy at work being turned up to 11. When I come home, my dial crashes down to zero and I have no will to do anything besides watching the same music videos over and over again on YouTube

          I’m not sure about timers. I have a tendency to ignore them. I have five alarms set to get me up in the morning and it still takes me over an hour to get ready. I also live within walking distance to work, so there is no need to leave work to avoid traffic or take public transportation.

          I really should get a life outside of work. But it’s hard when you don’t have any friends to hang out with after hours.

          1. Quandong*

            If you have not already done so, please consider formally requesting accommodations from your employer in relation to your autism. I suspect this may result in more long-term, beneficial assistance than your bosses occasionally stopping you from working overtime after they see you crying.

            Do you have access to an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) through your workplace? Would you consider trying to get some guidance and help through an EAP?

            If not, please consider finding an experienced therapist who works with people on the Autism spectrum to manage compulsive behaviours. You deserve expert help to regulate your work pace and habits. And you deserve help to develop your life outside of work, including friends and hobbies.

            Unfortunately, in my experience bosses care more about getting work done than protecting their vulnerable employees. I don’t think you can rely on your bosses to take care of you in the way you’d like, without pursuing more formal accommodations and assistance. Your bosses are invested in making sure work is completed, and this means they will lean on employees, including you, as much as they need.

            I hope some of the ideas on this thread are useful to you.

            1. Another Manic Monday*

              I’m in the process of pursuing Reasonable Accommodations for some aspects of my work environment, but it will be a long process.

              I do not know if I have access to an EAP through my workplace. That’s something I need to look into.

              I’m seriously considering seeing a therapist as my insurance will cover it.

              There are plenty of useful ideas in this thread. Thank you!

          2. LGC*

            Are you sure you’re not me? I’m surprisingly similar in that I hate leaving stuff undone, and I’ve joked about it to my coworkers. (And that I’ll power through stuff if I’m not forced to take a break.)

            That’s actually…kind of good news that your boss and her boss are aware and concerned about your well-being. And to circle back to your last sentence in your OP, that means she already knows you have limits – she saw you crying (or having a meltdown, if you prefer that phrasing), and instead of penalizing you for being emotional she met with you and lightened your workload by ordering you to work less.

            So I think that you need to say that you have to pull back to x going forward to your boss. She might need to hire another person going forward to replace your previous output. I’m not sure how friendly you are with your colleagues – I could hold an employee to certain hours if they wanted, but I’d feel a little awkward about that request and plus, I have 20 people reporting to me and I barely feel like I’m above water as-is. (And we have work!)

            If scheduling or finding reasons to leave don’t work for you, then…they don’t work for you. It’s helped me, but it might not be for everyone. I’m not sure how good you are with long term goals (I’m guessing you’re not terrible since you managed to have a military career before moving to civilian life), but you might want to aim towards gradually reducing your hours. (And heck, even more Youtube time works.)

            And you might even want to consider therapy if you’re not doing it already. (And if you are, bring this up!) You’re talking about a self-destructive pattern that you find yourself powerless to repeat. Obviously, therapy isn’t for everyone, and if it’s not for you that’s fine.

            1. Another Manic Monday*

              I can’t leave work undone at the end of the day and feel good about it. I often stay a little late (even without OT) to ensure that my desk is empty at the end of the day. You can easily spot my cubicle at work: It’s that ridiculously well-organized and decorated cubicle without a single work file not being actively worked on. Most of my coworkers’ cubicles resembles an active combat zone littered with backlogged work and unfilled documents. I just couldn’t work in such a disorganized space. I even buy my own office supplies because the ones in the office supply closet doesn’t meet my personal standards.

              My meltdown was not directly brought on by the workload although it might have had an indirect impact. The meltdown was caused by the excessive number of incoming phone calls on my desk phone. Our office get a lot of work calls from the public and it’s more than the receptionist can reasonable handle. The office manager therefore arranged that all incoming phone calls not picked up at the front desk would be redirected to all the other staff’s desk phones. It turned out that most of the staff would turn down volume to zero on their desk phones and just ignore all incoming calls so they can concentrate on their own work. To combat that the office manger had IT change the settings on everyone’s phone to prevent the staff from turning down the volume and disable all functions that would somebody to ignore a incoming call. Yet, most of the staff would still ignore all incoming calls.

              I only get one or two calls a day on my direct line from people needing to talk to me personally, but because the main line was now being forwarded to everyone’s phones I was getting more and more calls in my cubicle. Having the phone ring is very disruptive for me and significantly impairs my ability to do my work and due to the ever increasing workload we are getting more and more calls from the public every single day. It came to the point where my phone could be ringing constantly all day long and it was getting more and more difficult to deal with it. Unless I wanted to be a full time second receptionist and not being able to do my own work, I would have to attempt to ignore most of the calls but it was very difficult. IT had disabled the volume controls and set the volume to 50% and picked a really obnoxious ring signal to force people to answer the phone calls (but most still ignore them). All the buttons allowing the user to ignore and decline a call was also disabled. I was basically powerless to stop my phone from constantly ringing and interrupt my hyperfocus on my work. It was times, I couldn’t even call somebody I needed to reach because all the constant incoming calls was blocking my ability to pick up the phone and dial out.

              It was getting harder and harder for me to cope with the constant ringing and I was getting desperate to stop it. I started to completely unplug my phone from the wall for a few hours to get some temporary peace. I would even pick up the phone and immediately hang up on the incoming caller just to stop the phone from ringing for a moment. It was the wrong thing to do, but I could handle all the incoming phone calls and IT had disabled all the good ways to ignore them.

              Finally, the breaking point. I was working through lunch when clock struck 1.00pm. Suddenly my desk phone started ringing off the hook. I looked at the screen and saw five incoming calls blinking at the same time. I just lost it and started crying. I had enough and couldn’t take it anymore. One of my coworkers went and got a supervisor. I was told to go home for the rest of the day and rest. I was even encouraged to take couple of days of sick leave if I needed some additional time off.

              When I returned to work the next morning, I was informed that the office manager had called IT and had them remove my phone from list of phones they have the main line forwarded to. Since then I am only getting phone calls on my direct line which is much more manageable.

            2. Another Manic Monday*

              I’m pretty decent with sticking to long-term goals, perhaps even to my own detriment as I am resistant to changing them even if I need to do so.

              I’m currently looking into therapy and reasonable accommodations at work, but first I need to find a mental health professional who works with adults on the spectrum. That in itself is a challenge as Autistic adults are largely being ignored and all the focus is on children.

        3. Another Manic Monday*

          Another reply that I have to rewrite because it wouldn’t post to the site.

          I don’t really have a life outside of work. Having my dial set to 11 during the workday results in me having no energy left once it’s time to go home. I spend most of my nonworking hours laying in bed watching music videos on Youtube due to my dial having gone from 11 to 0. I need to set the dial to 5 both at work and home, but I haven’t been able to do so yet.

          I have signed up for a ton of things to do, but I never end up doing any of them because I don’t have the triggers at home needed to make me change my current behavior. At work I have tiny triggers that makes me move through the day effectively (deadlines, scheduled hearings, new assignments, work hours, etc). At home, I only have myself, my obsessions, and my hyperfocus. It’s very hard to change a routine once I am stuck in it.

          Timers doesn’t really work for me as I will just ignore or turn them off. I also live within walking distance to work, so I don’t have the need to leave work at a specific time to avoid traffic or catch a train or bus.

          I have five alarms to help me get ready for work in the morning (0630am – time to wake up, 0645am – time to really wake up, 0655am – get out of bed, brush teeth, take a shower, 0715am – get dressed, 0730am – time to leave) and I still struggle to get ready in time.

      2. Another Manic Monday*

        I don’t know what’s going on with this site, but this will be the third time I am rewriting this reply. For some reason my replies doesn’t post.

        I am a FT employee with a regular 40-hour schedule in addition to any OT that I do. I definitely do work most hours of anyone in the office. Doing OT is strictly voluntary and only half of the staff signs up for it. Most of the ones doing OT settle for 20-30 hours of OT a month, so I was doing 3-4 times as much OT as my coworkers.

        I don’t get paid enough to objectively justify all the extra work. I’m actually severely underpaid for the work I do and the cost-of-living in our area. I got hired as grade 8 make $52k a year and that’s not sufficient to live decently in this area (one-bedroom apartments are $2k a month). My boss recently said that she rates my work performance to be equal or above somebody at the grade 13 level. A person at grade 13 starts at $98k a year, so I am basically only being paid half of what I am worth to the organization. I work for the government so the bureaucratic government hiring process prevents her from paying me more than I was hired for.

        I did get paid for OT (1.5x) so that’s a strong incentive for me to work more OT than I can handle. I have to compensate for the fact that I don’t get paid well enough. Most of our office was closed during the partial government shutdown, so we got authorized unlimited OT to help catch up with the extra backlog caused by it. So having problem with self-regulation, work compulsion, huge backlog, insufficient regular pay, and unlimited OT results in many hours of work.

        Oh, the partial government furlough. Most of my coworkers was sent home for the duration of the shutdown or only working 1-2 days a week, but I was the only one who had to come in every single workday to do other people’s work for them. My boss could only pick a select few as “essential employees” and apparantly I was the most “essential” of them all.

    3. Rectilinear Propagation*

      I don’t have a specific script but I think it’s reasonable to tell her that you’ve become concerned that you’re burning yourself out and that you need help.

      Depending on what your company is using to mange your work (I don’t know if you literally mean a normal email inbox or not) they could potentially put a cap on how many work incidents you get in a day. If you’re using Outlook, the option to set a rule based on time of day isn’t available, but you can set a rule to match specific text in the headers. Us that to look for the hour an email was sent: “03:”, “04:”, etc. and send that email to a folder called “Work for tomorrow”. You don’t have a backlog so you should be able to clear your Inbox if you ignore everything sent after a certain time of day. Open those emails first in the morning.

      I like LGC’s suggestion of making sure you have someplace to be after work. May I suggest some kind of art class? You might be able to find something that’s difficult to hyperfocus on or at least if you do, something that would be less harmful to you if it happens. Maybe pottery would prevent you from doing too much of it by virtue of not having unlimited access to a kiln or sewing where you could do a lot of it but probably can’t harm yourself doing it.

      If you do something exercise related, I suggest limiting yourself to classes with a teacher or getting a good personal trainer so there’s someone there to prevent you from overdoing it.

      Also, if this is something common to Autism, hopefully you can find other folks (in real life or online) with tips for either learning how to regulate yourself or working around the fact that you can’t.

    4. Ann O.*

      Two questions:

      Question #1: Are you in therapy of any form that addresses the addiction to overwork? If not, that is something within your power to do and that you should do. You need help getting strategies to help you self-regulate.

      Question #2: Have you had a candid discussion with your boss about your difficulty self-regulating when it comes to work? I don’t think you need to disclose anything that you’re not comfortable disclosing in terms of formal diagnosis, but unfortunately, I think you do need to use some mental health-related language to be clear that this is something you need strong external structural support with. The way you’ve described it here is, IMHO, a great starting point, especially if your boss has already expressed concern about your workload. But you do need to be clear to both her and yourself that wanting her to ensure you don’t get overloaded, means telling her that she can’t trust your self-report of whether or not it’s okay to give you work above and beyond the norm. There has to be an external system in place.

      Based on what you’ve said below, it also seems like some of the issue is that you’re using work to deal with the fact that other aspects of your life seem unfulfilling. That again goes back to Question #1.

      1. Another Manic Monday*

        Answer 1: Not at this moment, but I am looking into it. I’m currently working with my insurance company to find a suitable provider.

        Answer 2: I haven’t had that discussion with her yet. It’s an unusual thing to ask for help with so I am not sure where to start without coming across the wrong way. I have no problem disclosing any diagnosis. My ASD diagnoses is actually common knowledge in the office. I even wrote an article about it in the agency-wide newsletter during last year’s disability awareness month.

    5. just a random teacher*

      Honestly, I eventually had to look for a field that had natural, enforced breaks so I would take them. It was one of the reasons I became a teacher – I know I won’t take reasonable breaks during the school year, but I will have certain times when I Cannot Be Teaching because school is closed (I finally told my boss I would no longer be doing summer school, so I now have a solid multi-week chunk of No Work every summer as well as the rest of the assorted school breaks).

      In my brief stint in an office, I not only worked all of the overtime I was allowed (which was quite a bit, because I was the rare low-paid temp who could program macros in Excel and correctly calculate complicated financial things, so they kept finding more things I could do and knew I was still a bargain at time-and-a-half), I started to get emotionally invested in the outcomes while working in a department where really, you shouldn’t want to “win” that badly. When I realized I was getting angry that someone years ago had screwed up getting a mortgage recorded properly and now some poor person wouldn’t lose their house to foreclosure after all, I realized I had to get the heck out of there and find something else to do with my life that (a) had natural time-based boundaries and (b) would be more of a positive for humanity in general if I did it well, because this just wasn’t healthy.

    6. Marie la lu*

      Apologies if I missed it but how long have you been in the job for? I am currently in a similar position although only 3 months and I plan to bring up doubling my capabilities by showing that I need extra hands for certain tasks to keep things moving. Is delegation an option for you? Are you in the position to start building a team of your own?

      1. Another Manic Monday*

        I have been here for almost two years. I was a temporary contractor for the first six months or so before I was a a permanent employee. Also, while I am a relatively new employee in this organization, I do have almost 20 years of combined work experience in the field and is objectively overqualified for my current position.

        When I started working here we were doing everything in two-man teams. Due to an ever increasing workload and an acute staffing shortage our teams got split up and now we are working alone with a doubled workload. I am not in a position to delegate or build my own team as I’m currently occupying a junior employee position despite doing the work of a considerable higher position.

        I would still be considered a quality employee and good performer if I put the performance dial on 5 instead of 11. By working at moderate phase, taking all allowed breaks, and spreading my regular workload out across the whole workday, I would still be doing better than most of my coworkers and be considered a good and effective employee without being completely overworked. The problem is that there’s no way I can put the performance dial on 5 on my own.

        1. valentine*

          See a therapist and ask to work on stopping. It seems transitions are your kyptonite. Are you sure working yourself to death and refusing to say no are autism and not guilt your family raised you with? The therapist can help with this. Think about why you can go go go at work but not, say, go go go having fun on Sunday and be unable to work on Monday. There is something about work, not your relentlessness and refusal to push a stop button on yourself, that has you wanting to do this. Why do you feel good about not being able to do things for your life, yet good about working an inhumane amount of hours for someone who doesn’t care about you (or she would’ve said no long ago)?

          You need a job with set work and hours each day.

          Stop doing your coworkers’ backlog. Did anyone even tell you to? The fact you’re only doing their backlog, not their regular work, seems like you do see and can stick to boundaries. When you get your mail, you don’t get everyone’s mail. When you wash your car, you don’t wash all the cars in the neighborhood. Were you typecast as a child, as “our little machine/worker bee” and now you seek that praise the same way?

          You’ve compared yourself to your coworkers several times, and in each case you find them wanting. You see their behavior as negative and yours as positive, but you’re the one crying at work and unable to have a proper life. Do you feel contempt and can they see that? Are you able to see anything positive about them? Turning down the ringer to focus is good because forwarding the calls wasn’t a good idea. (As an accommodation, ask that you not receive forward calls, only direct ones, and possibly that they go to voicemail and you will listen and respond at set times, assuming you can do that.)

          Take your breaks. Take all your breaks.

          You absolutely can’t ask your boss to force you to stop or not to work or to give you a certain amount of work only or at particular times, partly because you will rush through it and demand more, but also because regulating you isn’t her job. It’s not a reasonable accommodation. What does dialing down look like? What are you hoping someone can do for you that you won’t fight?

          1. Another Manic Monday*

            I did receive a formal diagnosis as being on Autism Spectrum a few years ago as an adult. Apparently, it is quite obvious to a trained professional. Anyhow, I do have some unresolved issues from my childhood that still effects me today. I was the “victim” of Childhood Emotional Neglect (CEN) from my parents, physical abuse from my brother, and bullied in school. I do still have weak personal boundaries, a strong feeling that my own personal needs and wants does not matter, and that all my feeling of self-worth comes from doing things for others.

            My supervisors regularly asks me to help with people’s backlog because backlogs are a constant problem. I also look for more work once I am done with my own regular tasks. I don’t think that I as typecasted as a child, but I was the first one to volunteer for things when I was a young child and my father used me as his “sidekick” and wanted me to be involved in his interests and hobbies instead of allowing me to pursue my own.

            I do not feel or show contempt to my coworkers. I like most of my colleagues and have always been friendly and helpful to them. I must, however, admit that I sometimes feel resentment when I am being asked to help the same person with their backlog for the umpteenth time. Especially when I know for a fact that my own regular workload is already considerable larger than theirs.

  203. Mimmy*

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

    I don’t work on Fridays so I usually check my email through the web app for the following week’s schedule. Yeah maybe that’s not the best thing but I’d rather see it now than be surprised come Monday morning.

    Anyway, more often than not, the person doing the schedule does. not. pay. attention. He’ll give me students I should not even have, either because 1) they have completed my class (my class is the first part of a particular instructional area; once I feel they’re proficient, I send them to the second part) or 2) they are only doing our program’s two-week assessment, during which they are assessed in both parts of the aforementioned instructional area.

    What’s weird is that this person is our director, Leonard! I appreciate that he is hands-on with the work of our center, but I’ve seen more mistakes when he does the schedule vs. when Penny, our educational supervisor, does it. Key words: educational supervisor! She should be doing it, or overseeing the process. It is a big job with many, many factors to consider. Hence why I think it’s better to have a dedicated person doing it, not the Director of our entire facility! Still, when errors are made, we have to do some shuffling around of students some days, which can get confusing and frustrating, both for the students themselves and the staff who had set lessons plans.

    Penny has confided her frustrations about this. She’s going to be out on Monday, so I’ll have to tell Leonard myself. He acts flexible but Penny has told me that he doesn’t like to be corrected. Ugh….well, if ya paid more attention, you wouldn’t have to be corrected so much in the first place!!!

    I get that it is important to be flexible, but I sometimes think that asking too much of it creates dysfunction. Is there such a thing as too much flexibility?

    1. Mimmy*

      Just to clarify: While I think we need to have a person whose sole responsibility is the scheduling (the center did have that in the past), it is not something I’d be interested in pursuing as it does not fit into my career goals. So yes, I’d suggest it, but not offer myself as a candidate.

  204. Unexpectedly feeling in demand*

    Hi everybody, first time commenter here (long-time lurker) wondering if anyone has thoughts on this situation…

    A company that I turned down for an internship (but who I got along with and would potentially like to work with in the future) just asked me why I turned them down. Would it be helping or hurting future job-seeking me to give them an answer (if kept short/framed in a positive way)? Also: is it a normal/cool thing for a company to ask its interviewees why they’ve turned them down? I’ve only seen advice against the opposite, aka interviewees not asking employers why they turned them down.

    1. CAA*

      It’s fine for them to ask and fine for you to respond or not. If you want to work for them in the future, I would suggest you respond. Having turned them down in the past may work against you later on, but you can mitigate that by having a reasonable explanation.

    2. Rectilinear Propagation*

      I recall reading about a similar situation but I can’t find it now.

      I think if the answer to their question is an external factor you can probably answer them. For example, if extenuating circumstances led to you not taking an internship at all, or a different internship fit better with your class schedule. Neither of those are really criticizing the company you turned down.

      I don’t know if this is normal or cool, I can’t recall the consensus on that in the previous question, but I do recall someone suggesting that they’re asking because they want to know which company is attracting their number one picks.

    3. Reba*

      I would guess that they are just gathering information about who their competitors so to speak are, or if their offer (I know it’s an internship, so Idk how much of an offer it really is) is out of line with similar places. How to answer why you turned them down…. probably depends on why you turned them down! I don’t think it will really help you or hurt you.

    4. Lady Jay*

      Do what you feel comfortable with; you can’t control whether answering them (however positively!) helps or hurts.

      I once turned down a scholarship opportunity, and when asked why I’d done so, answered as positively and blandly as possible (“wasn’t a good fit,” “thank you for the time you spent with me,” etc.) and the organization was still upset. They probably would have been just as upset if I hadn’t responded at all.

      Bridges can be burned from both ends. I’d probably answer, make it as positive as you can–but don’t pin your hopes on using the answer to keep the door open for working with this company in the future.

  205. Jiya*

    I’ve been at my current job for about four months, during which time I’ve had four supervisors and three grand-bosses and worked in two separate departments. Which is fine, but now I’m supposed to write a self-evaluation for my mid-cycle performance evaluation and I’m having a hard time coming up with…well, accomplishments. I’ve mostly been getting my feet under me and learning. Any tips for writing a self-evaluation when you’re new and haven’t really done much yet?

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would start just writing down on a notepad everything you have done or learned without regard to how basic or impressive it is and then you can whittle down to 1-2 items. Four months isn’t really a long time so you shouldn’t need more than 2 items but this may depend on where you are in your career: entry, mid, or senior level. If part of getting up to speed is learning a particular program or specialized task well enough that you feel confident and able to work independently that can be listed as an accomplishment.

      “Became proficient at utilizing Teapot analytic software. Able to liaison between Spouts and Lids departments to increase efficiency of production.”

      1. Jiya*

        I would say I’m mid-level in my career, got hired to be senior in my department in a position that had just been newly created, and then was moved to a junior position in the second department (which does work where my experience actually lies) because they needed more people. So basically, the position I was hired for was one that didn’t really have a set job description, and now I’m doing something else altogether which does have set expectations but which I’ve barely started in.

        I have a hard time thinking of “learned Basic Thing X” as an accomplishment, but I’ll try to be impartial about it until the whittling-down stage. Thank you!

    2. Auddish*

      Talk with your manager (or maybe HR) about what their expectations are for you completing this eval. I think most employers would be okay with you talking about how you’ve learned new tasks, taken on new items independently, etc, rather than focusing on accomplishments (because very few people will have accomplishments at 4 months, even without changes in their department.) I completed an eval at 6 months and I had to answer some of the questions with “I haven’t had the opportunity to xxxxx yet.” My manager was fine with those responses knowing that I’ve been overall working on learning the industry/role and I wouldn’t necessarily have exposure to any kind of opportunities to work on major projects yet.

      1. Jiya*

        You know what, a good start would be knowing which of my managers I’m even giving this to, because technically I have two (one in my “real” department, and one in the department I’ve temporarily been moved to). Thank you for the perspective!

    3. Middle Manager*

      Maybe you could spin that as a strength. I’m thinking something about learning about many areas of the company, showing great flexibility/adaptability, maybe the ability to learn quickly and work with lots of management staff.

      1. Kathenus*

        Yes! I’m late to this, but I agree that successfully dealing with several transitions of supervisors and senior leadership is most definitely an accomplishment, and you should definitely call it out on your self-evaluation.

  206. Rectilinear Propagation*

    Alison has said that it’s OK to ask about questions found elsewhere in this thread as long as it is work related.

    I won’t link to the site where I originally saw the question here or include any exact quotes. I’m asking anyone who recognizes the question to also not name or link the site here or give “hints”. I’m also asking that anyone recognizing it not pull exact quotes from either the original question or the ensuing commentary. I don’t want to flood this site with a bunch of new people who aren’t familiar with this site’s commenting policy (and more importantly, what it looks like in practice).

    OK? Thanks!

    This question is for folks who work in server rooms or other places where other people can’t see or hear you.

    How do you stay safe when you can’t yell for help and no one can see you’re in distress? I’m looking for answers that would be useful even where pairing up would fail: the hypothetical problem prevents the 2nd person from being able to help or the 2nd person themselves *is* the problem. Assume we can’t change the fact that the room is windowless and soundproof and the door can’t be left open.

    I’m also curious to see how often the solutions are down to company policy and safety practices, how often people have to come up with something themselves, and how often people just don’t have an answer for this situation. (I’m hoping for a lot of option 1 and very little of option 3.)

    1. Did you hear that?*

      What about a wearable panic button (think Life Alert)? When I worked as a chef in an Air Force missile silo, we were locked in and I wasn’t with the missileers. We either had a hardwired panic button or a wearable depending where we went. It had a direct line to security forces. I’m not sure if the IT server room would conflict with the wearable.

      The other is a policy of only working unaccompanied for a set period with required check-ins.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      This is kinda like a stuck elevator. The facility should have a landline or intercom in the room that connects to emergency personnel.
      Keeping a cell phone on your person would also be helpful – program in important numbers like the front desk or security guard station.

      If your hypothetical scenario is that your coworker is going to physically attack you rather than that there’s a medical incident or environmental incident (eg, fire), then I think that is highly improbable. But if you sensed it was possible, report the person to your boss and/or the police and/or get another job.

    3. just a random teacher*

      It seems like “can’t see you” is something that can be partially cured with cameras in a server room, since it’s not a place where there would be any expectation of privacy. Obviously, a video record is not the same as immediate assistance, but it would deter several kinds of bad behavior (including admitting unauthorized personnel, theft, and plugging in unauthorized devices that might compromise the network, which would be the reasons I’d use if I were making a case around adding a set of cameras to a server room specifically regardless of if those were the reasons I, personally, wanted them there). A policy of live remote monitoring of the cameras whenever someone was actually working in there would solve the “alone” issue more directly, but would be harder to justify if it’s common to need to go in there and there isn’t a history of incidents.

      In general, it’s hard to get people to add safety/redundancy to situations that have been “working fine” (for some definition of “fine”) without them so far. This isn’t right, but is common.

  207. VT*

    We’ve been trying to improve the department at work and I’m not sure how to deal with this behavior. I am part of a small group trying to do process improvement. I am in charge of my division, with about 3 other leads in charge of theirs. There is one person who keeps going along with what we have decided and even gives their input and ideas on different concepts. It feels like at our meetings they are bought in to the process and will tell their subordinates that this is the way we will handle things in the future. The problem is, they are not following up with anything or telling their people what they should do. So it’s like they are just agreeing in these meetings then they just do whatever they want when it comes to implementation.

    I’ve met with this person one on one to just iron out expectations and they have always told me what I wanted to hear, basically. Today, for instance, they told me they agreed with me and would follow up with their people. I overheard them talking to their people and told them the opposite that they told me they agreed to!

    Nothing bothers me more than to have someone agree with me to my face, then do the opposite with their actions. It’s so insulting. Have the guts to disagree with me to my face, don’t just placate me to shut me up then hope I forget/give up.

    Any thoughts what I can do? They are a supervisor, though not mine, and I am a lead worker. I’ve spoken with my manager and she thought I should just push all the work that this person should be shouldering on to this person, but given the nature of our work, that’s hard to do. Going to their manager is a toss of the coin and won’t guarantee results.

  208. JitterBug*

    Can someone please just let me know if this is a normal or an okay thing to do? I only ask because I have heard that college career advice centers can be terrible and I just need a sounding board. So to get a job, my career center really discourages job hunting the old-fashioned way i.e. applying to job boards or company career sites. Instead, they advise students to find people (often strangers and often not HR) on LinkedIn in the company/industry/role they want to join, connect with them, send them a message (usually a written elevator pitch), and if they respond ask to meet or network over coffee? I have never searched for a job in this manner and the method just seems…off. Am I the only one who thinks off?

    1. KR*

      Totes off. Companies want you to apply via the means they specify so your application is getting in front of the right person. Occasionally you will meet someone via networking that connects you with that right person but most of the time random people on Linked In don’t want to offer you jobs or take time out of their day to talk to you. It is ok to ask for their time to talk about how they got to that career, what type of roles you should be looking for, ECT but make it clear up front that is what you’re looking for. Good instinct on questioning the advice

    2. Middle Manager*

      Yeah, not good advice. I’m sure someone somewhere has gotten a job this way, but it’s not the norm. I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t hire someone through a random LinkedIn message. If I was being kind, I’d refer you to our application process.

    3. Alyssa*

      I think this can be okay-ish if it’s just for networking/coffee chats/asking questions/getting an idea about the job. Definitely works better if you have some connection – like if they’re alumni. But I either 1) wouldn’t assume this would lead to a job or 2) do it alongside normal job hunting.

    4. Minerva McGonagall*

      I work in a college career center and never recommend students contact complete strangers on LinkedIn. We have recommended reaching out to alumni who work at that company (and have told us that they’re happy to talk to current students), but I often find myself telling students to just apply the way they ask. The idea that they have to find a way to stand out is often what is hurting them in the long run…and explaining that is never fun.

      1. JitterBug*

        Thank you, everyone! I was so surprised when I heard this method. It almost seems like using LinkedIn the way people use dating apps. Almost creepy.

  209. Chinup*

    I recently had two job interviews, two separate companies in my specialized field, that went very well. At the end of both meetings, the hiring managers said that I should expect an offer by the end of the week. Followed up the next day with thank you emails. After a week, crickets. One hiring manager (Fortune 500) gave me his card and told me to call him if I hadn’t heard anything. I left him a voicemail. Again crickets. Im uncertain how to address the situation at this point. Part of me suspects that a former employer may have given me a bad reference/ inaccurate information regarding my previous position. I’m considering hiring a reference checking service. Anyone know of or have experience using a company that provides this service Thanks!

    1. Chinup*

      There is more to this story and I happy to elaborate if I receive any responses this late in the game!

    2. Alyssa*

      This is really weird, I’m sorry. If it’s happened at two separate companies I do wonder if its the reference. Do you have any reason to doubt it?

      Also I’m not sure if you need a reference checking service. Couldn’t you just have a friend who has nothing to do with your former employers call and ask for a reference and see what they say? It’s one thing if they said you should hear back by the end of the week and then crickets, but they actually said expect an offer so this is very strange.

      1. Chinup*

        Thanks for responding. Here’s the thing, the former employer, whom I suspect may be giving me the bad reference/ inaccurate info regarding my employment history, is bound by the terms of our legally binding settlement. I wouldn’t be shocked if this has occurred considering that the organization’s history of ineptness in my case. Not interested in pursuing legal action. However if they are interfering with my future employment, I’m Confused as to what to do next.

        1. WellRed*

          Have a friend confirm the bad reference. If there is an HR dept can you reach out to them? They should understand the ramifications of nit adhering to the agreement. If not, a cease and desist letter from a lawyer may be all the legal action you need.

        2. Alyssa*

          If you absolutely have to use this person as a reference I think you do have to at least do what WellRed said. Otherwise it’ll keep torpedoing your chances right?

  210. LGC*

    Whoo, this week has been a whirlwind!

    One of my employees (let’s call him…Wakeen, you might have heard about him before) lost his ID badge this morning and was going to be charged a fee for a replacement. My coworker (my co-supervisor) managed to get the badge paid for, but he went to his bank and never came back. So this morning was interesting!

    (On that note, I…understand the fee in theory, but in practice it works poorly because at least a couple of times a week someone calls out from work because they don’t have their ID badge, and they don’t want to pay the fee – which can amount to an hour’s pay for many employees. I can’t get it revoked entirely, but I do want to see if we can make it so people don’t have to pay cash. And yes, I am fully aware this is pretty messed up to begin with, especially as I’m writing this.)

    On the flip side, I managed to get the benchmarks adjusted for our major projects, which I’m actually pretty proud of! Basically, our old benchmarks seemed too high – the majority of employees were underperforming according to them, and consistently so. (Plus, the metrics were opaque and in units that we don’t really use anywhere else except for benchmarks.) So I had to decode the old metrics, explain why they were bad, and suggest new ones. The first time I tried last month I got way too ahead of myself (plus, to use Mimmy’s post a couple of posts up, I also work for a Leonard, although thankfully he’s just the site project manager and not the director, which is a level up from him), so it ended up with me arguing in circles, my Leonard getting hung up on irrelevant details, and everyone (or at least me) ending up really frustrated.

    The presentation yesterday went off…with hardly any hitches! (Leonard Leonarded, but only for a couple of minutes.) I’m a little embarrassed to admit it, but talking it over with my mother really helped, since I was like, “but why can’t they appreciate my genius and elite Excel skillz and SQL witchcraft?” and my mom gave me the reality check that management does not always care about or understand details. (And will not always let you know that.) So mom, if you’re reading this, thanks for understanding your nerd son.

    1. valentine*

      Put the fee in the department budget. No more charging employees for a business expense. Do they have office keys or anything they can put the badge on? Can you make it a fob badge? Can you switch to a code and photo ID? (Because an aggressor can just as easily extort you for the code as for your badge.)

      Really curious about the bank dude.

      1. LGC*

        I wish I could push back more, but this is coming from the president of my organization!

        I didn’t make this clear, but these are photo IDs that all employees and staff have to wear at all times on site. (This is something I’m not a fan of personally. We provide lanyards.) We’ll replace the IDs once free of charge but charge the fee afterwards – this is because some employees were repeatedly losing their IDs (like multiple times a month).

        If this sounds kind of silly, I totally agree. But there’s only so much I feel comfortable pushing against right now.

  211. Beleaguered*

    Has anyone successfully responded to stonewalling by a supervisee? My employee reacted negatively when I tried to give her feedback on how she could be more effective. Now she is giving me consistently unresponsive “answers” when I ask her about her work. HR is already involved, but I think they are similarly baffled by this employee’s attitude.

    1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      Pretty sure Alison has addressed this before, try searching for “silent treatment” on this site. I can’t remember if it was a boss or employee doing it, but either way I think you’ll find some good tips.
      IMO you need to just calmly tell her that refusing to communicate is unacceptable. And be willing to take action and fire her if she refuses to stop.

    2. Not A Manager*

      Alison has a lot of scripts that seem to involve “I see you doing x a lot. Here’s an example of x. In this job I need you to do y. Here’s how y would have looked in the previous example. Can you commit to doing y from now on? If you can’t, let’s talk about how to find you a position that allows more x and requires less y.”

    3. fposte*

      If she’s not responding pleasantly and professionally to you, that’s a failure to perform adequately and can be addressed as such. You can be perfectly kind about it–this may be out of embarrassment, after all, not anger–but after she gives you an insufficient answer, that’s your opportunity to say “Jane, the response you’ve just given me isn’t sufficient for the information I need about your work, and that’s been a pattern for the last week. If there’s a problem with your health or something else that’s keeping you from full performance, please let me know; otherwise I need you to give me and all your colleagues fully responsive answers in a polite manner, and if you can’t that’s a performance problem that’s going to impact your job here. Do you think you can do that?”

    4. Beleaguered*

      Your suggestions are really helpful and appreciated. The “silent treatment” tip was gold–thanks!

  212. Alina*

    A good post:

    I was rejected for a job that had been keeping me on the fence for weeks, and was a position I was very interested in. But the hiring manager sent me back a really nice email with feedback and sincerely offered to help me find work in this field. I’m looking to get into a field where people do want to help others get involved etc, especially other women. At first I felt really bad when I was rejected but this email makes me feel a lot better and a lot more hopeful. And I do think she’s sincere about maybe helping me in the future.

    I know that sometimes here managers say they would never give feedback after an interview. But just know that this interviewee has appreciated all the feedback I’ve received very much and would never respond obnoxiously. Also – that would just be counterproductive.

  213. The Bear*

    Recently found the blog and this is my first time commenting! I’m a young woman about to graduate from college and enter the workforce (hopefully the entertainment industry). Right now I have an undercut, where the back and sides of my hair are buzzed and the top is long enough to reach my shoulders. My question: should I cut my hair into something more conventional before I start job hunting? Will potential employers care?

    1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      This is *very* industry dependent, and entertainment involves a lot of different specialties. (Entertainment law might be more conservative, entertainment marketing might not, etc.) Can you look at what people in the line of work you want to get into do? Search for photos from conferences, look at headshots on LinkedIn etc.

        1. valentine*

          should I cut my hair into something more conventional before I start job hunting?
          Maybe? I’m having trouble picturing this. Like Natalie Dormer? Is it like a reverse mullett? If the top were short, I would say it’s fine.

  214. Mashed potato*

    late night post hope someone sees this lol
    1) anyone had experienced with changes at work, as in your company is changing how XYZ Is done etc. and roles changes, and it gets to the point that you dont like it and look for way out? is this common?
    2) had anyone had issues with telling bosses ESTIMATED time of completion and it didnt happen that way and then they took the estimate as your word and mad or upset at you?

    Best.

  215. asking for a raise*

    Did my boss just admit that they are paying the men more than the women?

    This is my first “proper” job out of college but I’m not a recent graduate (I scraped by for years on odd jobs, freelancing, and short contracts), and when I was offered the position in August 2018, I was grateful to get a permanent position with a fairly generous salary. I work in a large university with a fairly rigid and publicaly available compensation structure. Each year we automatically go up a salary “step”, which is a raise of about $2500, but then hit the ceiling and have to apply for a promotion or different position to earn more. I was offered the bottom step of the level.

    I think my compensation is fairly generous, but I have been a rockstar these past nine months, churning out critially needed product, building relationships with our clients, and being a recognised expert in my niche and leader amonst the team. So I asked my boss about more money.

    She seemed genuinely pleased I’d asked, because when they were recruiting she noticed that “all the men asked for more money, and the women said ‘thank you for giving me a job.'” It sounded like because I hadn’t negotiated more at first, I’d just have to wait to go up my steps and we’d see in 4 years whether there was a different job position to promote me to.

    In retrospect, I wish I’d asked her if that meant my male peers are getting paid more. I also wish I’d said in a more straightforward way “can I go up more than one step this year” or some similar monetary recognition of my hard work.

    Should I try again to ask for a raise, or let it go?
    Should I try to find out if my male peers are getting paid more “because they asked”?
    I’m a member of the union, should I reach out to them?

    For context, our team was expanded and around 75% of us were all hired around the same time last year. Also, our university is Not Great at gender equity, and I’ve heard of some very blatant gender-based pay discrimination from colleagues in other departments.

    (Thank you in advance to everyone who replies!)

    1. Indie*

      I’d go with the union option. In the UK big companies have to publish their gender pay gap and if there is one, what they are doing about closing it. It’s something the union could request for everyone’s piece of mind. It sounds like it’s a very valid issue where you work and that people like your boss would like to see tackled.

  216. Marie la lu*

    Sorry this is so long! Just wanted to rant and also hear insight from anyone who wanted to share.

    I confronted a colleague who was not pulling her weight at work recently.

    Backstory: I had been given a directive by our boss that I need to delegate to her. When I did, I got major attitude (actually saying no with no reason or no I don’t want to do it), a mini melt down (which was heard by colleagues) and now she barely speaks to me. Or looks me in the eye when she has to.

    I have been here only 3 months but have produced very good work. She has been here a year and is well liked by the boss but not the team. Many do not think she works. She sits on her desk and is on her phone 80 percent of the day. The 20 percent is taking her sweet time to craft a word document. Or asking people to do work for her. Many others have had experiences w her less than stellar attitude but the boss has a soft spot for her.

    I finally got this colleague in for a one on one to hash this out (a week after the meltdown) and it quickly turned into a “you were rude and cutting off my conversation that’s why I got mad” to “you keep checking on me and asking me to do things that’s why I am mad” narrative from her.

    I explained to her it may not have been clear that the boss has asked me to manage and delegate tasks to her and that I am not just pawning off work on her. I actually am being told to give B to her so I can focus on A but still manage B, so I have to check in on her. I also apologised for cutting her off during conversations – the office speaks a different language around me so sometimes I am not fully aware of what is going on.

    Knowing the above didn’t change her mind about her attitude or being more open minded to being delegated to, so I said, let’s all just catch up w our boss. Which we did and in the end it we were able (as far as I’m concerned) to nip it in the bud and move forward.

    During the pow wow, Colleague did not make herself look good by whining about the work I was giving her . her responses to everything were:

    It’s not super important work”
    “it’s not my expertise”
    “she is bossy and rude.” (Pertaining to me)

    The response from my boss was
    “Everything is important work”
    “what we do here is not rocket science, so learn” (seriously, I was asking her to do a PPT), and
    “do you remember how many people marched in here last year to complain about you being rude? Did I believe them? No.”

    In the end, colleague huffed and puffed and said “Ok… so how long is this going to last?” Which I found amusing. We are a small but established agency making money moves to new ventures and her skill set is not matching the category of skills we need but things are happening as we go, so there’s no set time for this period of delegation. But since boss has a soft spot for her this is the reason boss asked me to delegate – to see if we can keep her on somehow.

    I must say, I do think this was a really good turn out but it obviously doesn’t help my one on one relationship w this colleague. It’s funny because she is now being friendly to everyone she was rude to or talked shit about and not talking to me. It’s been a week now since the pow wow and I have handed her her tasks and have had no response. Less hostility but also very little can do attitude abt it all. Here’s hoping it all gets better because seriously, I just want to get the work done.

    And also, so much respect for my boss after this. I just want to show her that after all of this, I can just handle it from now on. I have never had a problem managing or delegating to people… only this one and it’s because she refuses to actually be delegated to. Which was a first for me.

    Thanks for reading.

    1. WellRed*

      You may never get a can-do attitude from her. That’s OK if she gets the work done. It’s not OK that she’s not talking to you, but if you can live with that, great. I am not impressed with your boss AT ALL.

    2. lurker_variable*

      I had a similar situation in a previous job and part of the reason I ended up leaving was because my manager continued coddling unproductive person and it was really frustrating for everyone else on the team.

      Written communication with clear deadlines are your friend. I know it feels awkward, but send requests via email or follow up emails after you talk to her saying eg ‘as we just discussed, please finish this ppt by EOB tomorrow. If you have any questions while you’re working on it let me know.’ This will document your polite and professional behavior and reasonable requests and her lack of performance at review time.

      1. Marie la lu*

        Thank you! I’ve been doing this on slack but I will start emailing too. It’s a very slack heavy/reliant place. I hardly get internal emails, so I’ve fallen in line – so thank you for the reminder!

        1. valentine*

          Send your boss updates like: Assigned/waiting/still waiting or Assigned/says she doesn’t wanna, etc., and tell him that you made a go of it, but it looks like you can’t keep her on, yeah?

          I would leave because a boss who protects her is only going to hurt me.

          1. Marie la lu*

            She’s actually asked to sit down with me this week to check in on progress as I think she sees this as a signifier if my colleague can be kept on. So absolutely will be giving her updates. I had neglected to add that boss realised that colleagues skill set and attitude are not jiving w the company and while we are now doing what we can to see how flexible her skills are, if it doesn’t work out, then it doesn’t . I want to be as fair and compassionate and as thorough as my boss is seemingly being and this is where my respect from her comes from. I also really really love the work I do. Thank you so much for your insight! really do appreciate it.

  217. Holes in my face*

    I have several facial piercings (not my nose) that I wear daily to work – I do not remove them. I have an interview scheduled for next week, and I’m trying to decide if I should remove my piercings just for the interview. In an interview I had back in January, I got the sense (no confirmation, of course) that the manager was nonplussed by my piercings; I was dressed very professionally and presented myself and my skills well.

    I have no intention of removing my piercings for a job, so I’m hesitant to hide them in an interview in case I am offered the job and it turns out to be a problem down the line (i.e. once my supervisor sees them on my first day). It feels disingenuous to take them out for the interview if I don’t plan on taking them out for work. Any suggestions for the right way to handle this would be much appreciated!

    1. Max Kitty*

      If you don’t want to take the piercings out for the job, then I think your instincts are correct to leave them in for the interview. If the piercings are a problem, you won’t get the job, but it seems like it would be worse to remove them for the interview, get the job, and then have the job ask you to remove them.

      1. Holes in my face*

        Thanks so much for the feedback, Max Kitty! My intuition was to leave them in since I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that I couldn’t wear them. I do work in academia so things are a little more relaxed, so I’m not convinced they would be a dealbreaker.

    2. Yes I Am Tired Thanks For Asking*

      Agreed! You should keep them in to make sure they would be okay at the job.

  218. ThinkingOfBecomingAReportingAnalyst*

    This is the online version of an informational interview. Summary: Does anyone here design analytics reports (think click tracking – dashboards/ report templates) to help people in your organization/ or for whom you consult – manage their data needs so you don’t have to personally run the reports in the future? Do you like it? Would you recommend it for someone who is a secret data lover, but an extrovert with ADHD?

    I have an opportunity to move from my super creative and interesting job….but high stress /political role, laterally to a calmer job. I’d have to learn the metrics reporting software, and then I’d be spending (if things work out) the next stage of my work life, being an individual contributor, meeting with internal customers like I used to be, and offering to help them set up their reporting needs. A more stable workload. I’m seriously close to burn out some days, but on others, completely jazzed by the creativity and interaction I get in my current job. I hate being bored, but I’m reaching an (advanced) age where I can’t sit with fingers on keyboard 12 hours a day, 5 days a week… I feel it physically and have no life left afterwards.
    One of my real gifts is pattern recognition, and like some with a hyper-focused ADHD, I’m able to see things out of the box in new ways and come up with amazing solutions. I’m quick. But….I sometimes don’t think things through in my life plan. And I am not sure this will engage me enough but have no idea who to ask. (we currently use consultants but they are rolling off… and I swear, they all look young enough to be my kids – if a mature mom – or grand kids. I’m NOT going to tell them that)
    (My former grandboss, who loves me and knows the quality of my work at a very high level, is recruiting me and offering to ensure I get the training). But I’m pretty sure she doesn’t realize I have ADHD; she just knows I’ve been doing the work of 2 people for the last several years ( she inherited me; promoted and encouraged me, but now that she’s left, and moved up and over, my current role has gotten the support cut back and I’ll soon be carrying more load than I know I can sustain in the long run).
    Do you love your job? (the software has the same initials as an alcohol recovery program, if that makes any difference) Would you go into it again?

    1. Someone Else*

      I don’t think I work with exactly the type of software you’re talking about, but I do have a lot of experience designing reports and with analytics and high level business intelligence stuff and I want to warn you that this will not necessarily be less stress or calmer? It could be, depending on the role and company, but when you mentioned that it gave me pause immediately. If you’re assuming this will be less stress than your current role, it might not. I also want to warn you that although there is a ton of great work to be done in the vein of designing dashboards for them so they have the info available and don’t need you to run the reports for them…if you are in a position where it’s humanly possible to run the reports for them a nonzero proportion of people will definitely hire you to make it so they can do it themselves but STILL constantly ask you to do it for them, just with the new tools (think: instead of writing a one off query and sending results, you design a nice pretty report but they still want YOU to be the one to run the report). So your job is easier than if you hadn’t designed the stuff, but for some people even “just click these two things and you’ll see everything” is somehow beneath them and you’ll get the request back. Not always. But there’s no escaping it entirely.
      I don’t know if any of that is helpful but it immediately came to mind upon reading your post.

      1. ThinkingOfBecomingAReportingAnalyst*

        Very helpful. In my current role, I’m the person asking for the reports to be run… and I have lots of great ideas. I’m patient and respectful about the time of the folks that do work for me – and give lots of runway, but I don’t know if my personality would do so well at being bombarded with “do it for me” requests. I’m not good that way. This is SUPER helpful.

  219. Elan Morin Tedronai*

    I have a question I’d like to run by you guys.
    I’ve recently started to become rather unhappy with my salary and have started to interview because of that. In due course, I received a job offer offering $Y per month, where if my current salary was denoted as $X, Y-X=1,000. I asked them to give me a few days and approached my current boss the next day, essentially telling him, “I’ve received this offer and they’re paying $Y. I intend to turn them down because I believe in our company’s mission and I enjoy working here. However, I would like a pay increase to somewhere between X and Y, because I cannot continue surviving on X.” (That’s all the algebra, I promise!)
    His eyes literally bulged. But as things stand now, he’ll present what I am going to do to the Board and lay out a plan for an increase for everybody (because apparently it’s not fair for only one person to have a pay raise) – I will have an answer by May, which I agreed to because 5 old men don’t move very fast and because May marks my 3rd year here.
    I don’t believe this will work (which is another story in itself) and I think I’ll end up moving anyway… But what do you think I could have done better or differently?

    1. Gina*

      I think you should have taken the other job. Or simply asked for a pay raise (and made the business case for it) without having to use the other job as leverage. Accepting a counteroffer is usually a bad idea, and you don’t even have one, just a future possibility of a small increase. Maybe. If the Board agree. Later on. :(

      This seems like the least effective way to negotiate a pay raise, really.

      1. London Calling*

        Have to agree with Gina, you have also probably annoyed the other company, who now have to start recruiting again, you don’t have a promise of a pay rise just an answer (which might be no and might be in May and then again might not) and your manager knows that despite the blather about believing in the company mission you are open to other offers if they are good enough.

        Plus the casual ageism about old men.

        1. Elan Morin Tedronai*

          Hey there. Nope, I know I didn’t, because I told them I’d take some time to *consider* their offer, and *revert to them asap.* I also know they have at least 2 other candidates, so they’re not suffering as much as you think they might be.

          Yes, I made it clear to my boss that I would be open to other job offers if they are good enough and if I don’t get my increment, my belief in the company mission not withstanding. I laid it out for him because I don’t believe in suddenly throwing a resignation letter on his desk without giving him a chance to rectify things. Whether you think this is blather or not, I do believe my company is doing good work and they do trust me and treat me well, lousy pay aside.

          Finally, I apologise for my comment about old men. At 30, I’m actually the youngest in the company (with the exception of that disastrous would-be intern whose story I told in my submission here last year). The rest of my colleagues are easily in their mid-50s or older, and the Board comprises 5 men at least 60 years old, so there’s a lot of poking fun at each other’s ages going on.
          (“Hey there Moridin you brat, can you help me summarise the report about ___ and give me a statement to use?” “Sure thing grammy, I’ll have it on your desk first thing tomorrow morning, try not to die of old age before then, yes?”). I guess it’s somewhat of some dark inside humour that leaks out and I mean no disrespect or offence by that fact. I do realise, though, that this can be construed as ageism without proper context, so thanks for the reminder to be more discrete.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’ll dissent and say it wasn’t completely wrong to leverage an offer the way you did, because you didn’t bluff. I did something similar when I was getting a lot of interest while interviewing (as in, people were referring me and calling me for interviews) because while I was very happy with my position, I wanted to gauge my value and see if I could find anything markably better.

      The main problem I have with the way you approached it is that you put it in terms of your financial needs, instead of pointing out that another company (where you don’t have a history and they would take on onboarding/training expenses, because no one can hit the ground running 100%) valued you at $Y, basically giving you outside confirmation that your current work at your current company is worth $Y. Because, in the nicest way, your financial needs should be irrelevant to your employer; if an employee’s needs were relevant, people with lots of kids or even a gambling problem could insist on more money for the same work. Or if you paid off your debts and were in a better position, should they use that to deny you a merit raise? Pay is supposed to be about the value of what you do for your company, and that should be the basis for any discussion of pay.

    3. Psyche*

      Had you talked to your boss about being unhappy with your salary before? He may have felt blindsided that it got to the point of you getting an offer from another company to even mention being unhappy at your current job. Ideally, I think you would have talked to your boss about a raise before you started interviewing. If that didn’t work, I think what you did could be a good second step but it does signal that you have one foot out the door.

      1. Elan Morin Tedronai*

        Boss has made the statement that we are underpaid – with good reason, we are a religious charity. He was blindsided but he’s since told me that (1) he was glad I was transparent with what I was doing; (2) my statement of leaving was what he needed to kickstart the case for an all-round raise to the Board; and (3) he has made it clear (and this I know for a fact) that my work exceeds expectations and that he and most of the Board (except for one or two notable exceptions) are willing to retain me, even if it means (gasp) giving me a raise.

        My salary has also stayed the same throughout the 3 years I was at the company, so it was really high time anyway.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t get why you won’t take the new job, though $1,000 is paltry and you should aim for a job that pays more than market, and I definitely don’t see why you leveraged it for less instead of more, with the hope of settling for the same (still bad, but much better than less). It’s like saying, “You don’t pay me enough and someone else wants to pay me $1,000 more, but I will accept the continued disrespect and underpayment.”

          5 old men don’t move very fast […] Hey there Moridin you brat […] Sure thing grammy
          This stereotyping and attitude is just terrible and doesn’t serve you. You should escape to a more professional and respectful culture.

          What if you dedicate yourself to the mission of seeking your worth?

          1. Elan Morin Tedronai*

            If $1,000 per month increase is paltry, I think I’m in the wrong field! Hahaha…

            The reason I’m not moving (yet) is because, like I said, I believe in my company’s mission, I give as good as I get without repercussions and I’m currently at a point where I’m satisfied with everything at my job except the salary.

            I’m not saying I’ll always be happy here, nor am I saying that my company is entirely (dys)functional; these are merely my reasons for staying.

  220. New Manager*

    Hi-

    New manager here and making first new hire. I have a candidate who is near the top but I have some concerns about their background and if our role is something they actually want. I’m wondering how much emphasis I can place on the below and if these are red flag. I have a couple people telling me that I cannot make assumptions during interview process and can only judge based on what the candidate tells you and I have others telling me that these are definitely red flags. Anyway….

    Our candidate has a degree in a completely unrelated field and worked in that field right out of college for 2-3 years. They then took an entry level position in our field and in a similar role to what we are hiring for and has been in that position for about 1.5-2 years. Well, during the interview, I ask what other roles they are applying and/or interviewing for and they tell me that they applied to ours and also for a position in that first field they were first employed in and have their degree in (a completely unrelated field and not even similar to our role). So, this has me questioning whether or not they even want our role and if accepted, how committed they’d be.

    So, red flag; yay or nay?

    1. Psyche*

      The fact that they are also applying to the other field could be concerning, but I think it is more a yellow flag than red flag. You should ask them about it. Ask them why they switched fields two years ago. Ask them what their long term career goals are. Then see how you feel about their answers.

      It could be they switched because they like your field more but are applying to jobs in the other field because they need a job. It could be that they switched because they were having trouble finding a job in that field and ideally would like to make their way back. The candidate is the one who mentioned the other job they are applying to, so I think it is fair to mention that the jobs seem very different and ask why they are pursuing such different jobs.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t want to say what else I applied for. How is it anybody’s business? Don’t ding them for this.

    2. Yes I Am Tired Thanks For Asking*

      Ask them! I agree that assumptions are negative and it could cause you to throw out a perfectly good candidate. People should be able to answer your questions honestly without you spinning out ulterior motives for them and not giving them a chance to address it.

  221. Kiona (she/her)*

    This is going to be a long one. I hope someone reads it and gives their input!

    So I left my old job without a new job, and I am now job hunting. My ex-colleague who is my close friend (100% trustworthy) told me last week that she overheard “John” speak to another colleague about me. Apparently, one of the jobs I applied at, the CEO knows John and he called John for an informal reference. I hadn’t even spoken to the CEO yet at this point; he had just emailed me to ask some questions. Anyway, what my friend overheard John saying was, “Kiona’s got quite a personality, doesn’t she?” My friend didn’t hear what the other guy said, though.

    Question: Would you say that about someone with a nice personality or a not so nice one?

    Context: John and I didn’t always get along, and we did have a spat once where I called him out on how he always spoke to me in a condescending tone. He later apologised, saying he never realised he was being condescending, and added that he understood how I could take his tone that way. (I wasn’t the only one who thought that about him, btw. We all joked about how he was stereotypically [a kind of European known to be cold and unfriendly] that way.) I accepted his apology and we were good. Granted, he walked on eggshells with me from then on, but superficially we were fine, and we didn’t work with each other much so there was hardly any substantial interaction.

    Though I begrudgingly accept that this is a done thing, I was uncomfortable that the CEO of the company I applied at was getting an informal reference from a guy I barely worked with – just because we worked in the same company – without even speaking to me first. I also was not comfortable with the fact that John was talking (bitching?) about me to another colleague in an open-plan office. It could be my insecurity here, but it sounded to me like he wasn’t really over our spat and my calling him out, and might have said some unpleasant things about me to the CEO. It didn’t feel fair that CEO might have preconceived notions about me before meeting me, so I decided to withdraw my application. I figured, whatever crap John might say/have said to the CEO about me, the CEO would not be able to hold it against me if I wasn’t depending on him for a job.

    Now, a part of me is proud that I’m known to have a “personality”. I mean, you wouldn’t say that about someone meek and quiet and a wallflower. I’m not afraid to speak up and stand up for myself. But I’m assertive, not aggressive. I know some people (mostly men) don’t like women who are assertive, but that’s their problem. But how do you stop someone who doesn’t appreciate your assertiveness from using it against you, in this setting? Can you even? Do I just suck it up and accept that people are going to say what they want? Is that just life?

    1. Buu*

      I think the comment about you ‘having quite the personality’ is a put down from a sexist man about you as a woman esp in the context of you flagging his behaviour. It’s coded language used so he can put you down but wriggle out of it if someone calls him up on it again.

      Only thing I can suggest is if you have a friend in a relevant position who could pose as someone looking for a reference to see if it’s affecting formal referencing or just informal boys network chats. If they are giving you stinky references and you think it’s gender based, you may need to seek legal advice.

      1. valentine*

        You’ve chosen an overblown sitcom-level response to an allegedly overheard tidbit and you don’t have any idea what John meant by it. He could mean it about a kind or meek person. Maybe he was being noncommittal after the CEO praised you. Maybe a million other possibilities that probably don’t matter.

        You should’ve ridden it out. If you didn’t get the job, you might not know why and not be any worse off, able to dust yourself off or to obsess at will, but by removing the possibility of getting the job, you’ve hurt yourself for no good reason.

        And being seen as “a personality,” a caricature, is terrible. You want to be known for stellar work and a good, confident attitude.

        1. Kiona*

          John didn’t describe me as “a personality”. He said I’ve “got quite a personality”. I think they’re very different things. And I’m more inclined to accept the definition that others have given in the other comments. Otherwise, thanks for your input.

      2. Kiona*

        Knowing John, it was definitely coded language. He definitely doesn’t like it when someone would stand up to him or deny him of something he’s asking for. I don’t know if he’s being overtly sexist, but most of the colleagues he would need something from, are women… (The office is 70% women and all are lower-ranked than him.)

    2. WellRed*

      I think withdrawing your application over this was a mistake. If the CEO knows John, it’s not surprising he called him up. You also seem to think this was unfair because the CEO hadn’t met you, but…you then withdrew without giving him the benefit of the doubt. I see a lot of defensiveness and assumptions here. It’s possible to be assertive without getting in your own way.

      1. Kiona*

        Yeah, i probably should have given him the benefit of a doubt. But i just felt like with them being friends/acquaintances, the CEO would take his word over mine any day. I didn’t want to wait for the CEO to decide if i was good enough. I wanted to make that decision for myself. That was my rationale anyway. :P Thank you for your input.

        2. Observer*

          You’ve made a ton of unreasonable assumptions here. Also withdrawing because the CEO had the temerity to talk to someone without getting your permission first is hardly making a decision about fit. Yeah, you made a decision about what action to take, but it wasn’t based on anything.

          You don’t know what the guy said to the CEO, you have no idea how the CEO took it and you also have no idea how much this particular conversation would have affected your prospects anyway.

          I wish you lots of luck in your job search. For your own benefit, you should realize a couple of things. Hiring managers etc. will almost always reach out to people they know without asking you or even talking to you in many cases. It’s perfectly legitimate, too. You don’t get to control where people get their information.

          Also, you are best off not making decisions based on snippets of overheard conversations, especially whey they are third hand. Your friend overheard part of a conversation about a conversation with a third party. While you probably have a good read on the former coworker’s attitude, you have not described anything that should ever have been considered actionable in this context. The only potentially useful piece of information here is that you’ve confirmed that John will probably not speak well of you, but will also probably use language that can be read in various ways for the purposes of deniability.

    3. Someone Else*

      I probably would never use the phrasing, but from just your account of it, I don’t think it’s a statement of “nice personality” or “not nice”. It’s not about niceness, it’s about not liking you. “Quite the personality” could mean they think you’re loud and obnoxious, or could mean they think you’re weird, or…really just a euphemism for anything they find non-standard. It’s a rude thing to have said but it’s completely ambiguous.
      That said, I wouldn’t read too much into it that this one guy made an off hand remark even to the CEO. It’s unlikely it’s going to completely color others’ opinions of you because it’s so vague. It might cause some initial bias but if you talk to them yourself professionally, they’re likely to have no idea what the guy could’ve meant. If they’re smart and reasonable they should not put a ton of weight on it.
      You can’t stop people from forming opinions about you, which means you can’t stop them from sharing their opinions about you with mutual acquaintances. There is nothing you can do there, and if you try, you might make something seem like a bigger deal than it is. Unless you have a billion dollars and lawyers on retainer and want to go around threatening to sue everyone who dares say a work about you for defamation, you can’t control this.

      1. Kiona*

        “Anything non-standard”. Yep. Basically, “quite the personality” just has a negative connotation, doesn’t it?

        I spoke to another ex-colleague I’m close to about this, who still works there (and is actively job-hunting :)), and she said, “But John has squabbles with everyone in the office.” She was trying to say that John is the one with problem since he’s arguing with everyone. But she added that with John being friends with the CEO, the CEO would probably be inclined to believe him anyway. Rightly or wrongly, i felt like I’d already lost the fight. *shrug*

    4. Yes I Am Tired Thanks For Asking*

      Yeah, I’m not sure that withdrawing your application was the best plan here. It’s true the CEO probably heard some veiled negative stuff about you from John, but if you were still called in for an interview you would have the chance to counter that by still being an excellent candidate. That being said, I’m not sure if there’s any way to prevent stuff like this in the future.

      1. Kiona*

        Yeah, my rationale for withdrawing is that i wanted to make my own decision to move forward with the job or not. Didn’t want the CEO to decide for me. Definitely my ego talking, but hey. :)

  222. Yes I Am Tired Thanks For Asking*

    I have a question about sharing medical details at work.

    I have sleep apnea that I’m in the process of getting treated. For now, I’m pretty exhausted all the time and can struggle to focus or occasionally process things very slowly, struggle to speak off the cuff, etc. There was a period where it was getting particularly bad, and I told my boss about it because I wanted her to have context for why my performance might be suffering a little and why I might need to have upcoming doctor’s appointments.

    Now, I’m regretting it because she keeps constantly bringing it up in an invasive and rude (although ultimately well meaning) way. She clearly doesn’t understand what sleep apnea is despite my explanations and has been pretty invalidating about it. Examples include telling me that I should exercise more and that would fix it, asking me multiple times when I was going to be getting a diagnosis (I have a diagnosis! It’s sleep apnea! I have explained that a bunch of times!), asking directly about the purposes of specific appointments, telling me that I didn’t look like I had a sleep problem, and so on. I want to completely stop this and no longer mention any medical details at work, but I’m very concerned about offending her. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to frame this in a friendly way?

    1. Psyche*

      That’s hard. Could you try telling her “I told you about my sleep apnea to give context for the many doctors appointments. I would really rather not discuss my health problems at work.” Then if she says something again, you can reiterate “I really don’t feel comfortable discussing my health problems at work.” Or even “I appreciate your concern but I would really rather not discuss my health problems at work” if you want to soften it. Hopefully if she stops getting more information, she will stop asking for it.

      1. Yes I Am Tired Thanks For Asking*

        I’ve been thinking about saying something like that but my worry is that it will seem super abrupt because I’ve already engaged in discussions way more than I should have, so she’s already seen me discuss my health problems at work a lot, you know?

        1. CoverLetterWoes*

          I think Psyche’s scripts are great, but as Alison always says, the key is in tone & delivery. If it’s said in a neutral & light “oh, I appreciate your concern, but I’m just sick of talking about this now!” kind of way, I don’t think it would come across as abrupt. And you could add something like “I’ll definitely let you know if anything changes that will affect my work!”

          Though you also said that you told her partly to let her know why your performance might have been suffering, so I wonder if there’s some concern she has there that is prompting all the questions? Have you two had a frank discussion on how your performance is suffering and how or when that will change, if it hasn’t already? If she’s not a direct type, maybe she’s hinting about wanting to know when you’ll be back to 100%.

          1. valentine*

            Going cold turkey is find. Don’t say sleep apnea anymore. Maybe head her off with “My health thing is under control” and when she butts in, say, “Don’t worry. The pros are all over it.” If you have ongoing appointments, consider intermittent FMLA.

  223. Britt*

    OK, so, I’m unemployed, and I literally don’t care about any jobs.

    I know I need to make money… but I just look at them and go “UGH.” Like, if I get any of them, I’ll never want to go to work.

    I’m having a lot of trouble… and I’m not like a spring chicken. I’ve been working for 12 years, and it’s just ridiculous at this point. I literally don’t know what to do.

    Does anyone know any ideas? Tips? Thoughts?

    I don’t care about the companies. I don’t care about the work they do. I do have passions, but nothing that comes up on Indeed. Help!

    1. CoverLetterWoes*

      What are some of your passions? Maybe people here could give some suggestions from a different angle than you’ve been looking at them?

      A couple of other things that came to mind:
      1. How much do you actually need to live? Could you find a part time job that you could tolerate that would give you enough to live, and then you don’t have to be spending as much of your time at work?

      2. Could you afford a career counselor? Or if you can’t afford a private one, is there a government job center near you that has free/low cost career counseling or workshops?

      3. I’ve found a lot of people on Instagram, of all places, that have given me inspiration on jobs related to my passions

      4. Maybe there are other alternative work schedules/styles, besides the part time job in #1, that could work. For example, calculating how much you’d need to make in six months in a temporary job to not work for the next six months. And not worry so much about not having a regular job or career.

      1. Britt*

        Hmmm! I’m going to answer your questions. Thanks!

        1. Probably only $1000/mo to live…but my student loan debt costs me another $1500/mo. Maybe that’s why its hard to be motivated because the money will just go to debt and not to anything I *want*.

        2. That’s interesting. I could look into it. In my experience they tell you to “get practical” and take any crappy job but I’m not really motivated by fear… I could look into this though.

        3. How do you mean? You mean like influencers who make money by doing makeup?

        4. At this point, I’m just looking for something I can stand at all. I’m a terrible employee honestly. I like running my own things and I stand up for myself when someone is cruel and it’s doesn’t work in places I’ve been.

        1. valentine*

          the money will just go to debt and not to anything I *want*.
          Being free of debt is something you want. The first college loan I paid off early was the one that, unprompted, gave a breakdown, including interest, if I paid over 10 years or whatever. There was no way I was paying them all that bastard interest. Quite the motivator.

          What job are you happy to do to pay off that debt? Maybe start there. What can you have a good attitude about for the better part of 40 hours/week (or start with part-time)? If nothing else, what job is an acceptable tax on your passions and leisure time?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I can relate! When I was job hunting, I was afraid that I would never sound convincing in an interview to do work I knew I had no interest in. What I did find though, was that the thing I didn’t like was that the new work wouldn’t be like my old work, if I stayed in my field. For example, I only liked painting teapots. I always thought I loved painting (and I do) but it’s really the combination of painting and teapots that works for me. Painting coffeepots just doesn’t do it for me. But charcoal sketching llamas? Now that’s a different story. Something that uses the skills I most like from painting (creativity, color choices, composition), and applied to a completely new context makes it a different sort of challenge, not a consolation prize.

      My point is, your passions may not come up on Indeed as obviously as you might hope. But there could be elements in the right kinds of jobs for you. I looked at city gov’t jobs, teaching type roles, data science, and just random search terms as they occurred to me. I found it was easier to be enthused about a job that had very little to do with my specific experience, and a lot to do with my interest in learning a new thing. I also had to accept that I would be entry level if I switched fields, which would have meant a huge pay cut, but it sounds like salary isn’t a primary motivator (just something you need to help pay down loans).

      Something else to consider, if you have the inclination – look at online classes. Find a course or a certification program you’re interested in and see where it might lead. If my circumstances hadn’t changed, I would have continued pursuing the data science path I started when I was unemployed.

      1. Britt*

        That’s interesting! Thanks.

        But if you were entry level… didn’t you just end up doing basic admin work anyway? Regardless of the field?

      2. Britt*

        I want to thank you again for your thoughtful comment. I took it to heart and thought about what I wanted to learn instead of what I wanted to do.

        What did you think of data science? Did you not like it? I saw some certificates online about it so I’m curious what your experience was!

  224. Lucina*

    I’m a woman who recently quit my first job out of college, which was related to my degree. But now I’m switching to office/admin work to finance my new degree in CS! I was super lucky to have even gotten my previous job and was hoping to get some help/thoughts.

    1.) Would it be a big red flag if I presented my foreign passport for an ID instead of a state drivers license/ID card? I let my old drivers license expire since I get anxiety from driving in my crowded city and there’s great transportation options (my license expires every 2-3 years). I’ve been using my foreign passport for ID purposes for a while and haven’t gotten much pushback expect for a few side-eye glances.

    2.) I have moderate facial scars from acne on the cheek areas – would it be a bad idea if I chose to not cover it up with makeup during work? I’ll usually wear some light makeup during interviews, which helps smooth out some scars, but you can still tell I have them. Last job didn’t require anything other than clean uniform so I’m not sure whether it’d be a huge faux pas? I don’t enjoy wearing makeup due to the costs and uncomfortable feeling…

    2. LGC*

      1) probably not, but if you can, get a non-drivers ID. It’s a bit extra (in my state, $24 for 4 years – and I think it’s the same for permanent residents), but it might be more “acceptable” than a passport.

      2) I think it depends on the role. Mostly, you should be “fine” not wearing makeup if that’s not your thing. But that REALLY, REALLY depends on the office.

  225. Karissa*

    At my last job I loved speaking with and working with clients on a regular basis but found the work I was doing very boring. I’m at the reference-checking stage with a job where the work is fascinating and impactful and the people I’d be working with are intelligent and very nice – all great!

    The thing is its definitely a place where people aren’t too chatty, where they do have lots of clients (but you dont have to talk to them unless you’re interested in it), they even have private offices because they prioritize quiet, heads down work.

    I’m wondering if I would be happy in this new job. I’m not expecting a social life out of work or anything, I’m just talkative, and it’s hard to figure out if I’ll fit in. Has anyone been in a position like this? Any tips?

    1. Fey*

      Wow, i would kill to work in a workplace with private offices! Most offices are open-plan and it drives me nuts!

      Ok, so…how important is it for you to always be interacting with coworkers? Do you feel the need to chat all day long or can you appreciate that some people want quiet time? Would you feel comfortable limiting chats to breaks only? Only you know the answers to these.

      However, i feel like to let this job go based on your possible inability to chat with coworkers would be a major waste. It’s not often you find a job where the work is fascinating and impactful and the people you’d be working with are intelligent and very nice. If i were in your shoes, I’d take the job and find other people to chat to outside of work.

      1. Karissa*

        I agree that it would be a waste to let this job go because of this. I know people value (and talk here about the importance of having) good coworkers and having nice but quiet coworkers is much better than mean/petty/etc coworkers. If I get it I think I’ll take it and try to focus on more client-centric projects.

        2. Observer*

          Also focus on the fact that Open Plan Office does NOT equal lots of coworker interaction.

  226. CoverLetterWoes*

    I don’t know if anyone is still checking these, but I have a couple of questions about a job I’m thinking of applying for & would want to send in the application at the beginning of the week:

    1. It is a part time job (which is what I want) but doesn’t list how many hours they’re looking for. Is it okay to call HR to ask that? I’m pretty flexible, but if it’s too many hours, I’m not going to waste my time & theirs by applying.

    2. Should I mention the following (in shorter form!) in my cover letter? : The position is at a university that I have seriously considered applying to for a master’s program that would actually compliment this position perfectly. I actually started the application a couple of years ago & met with an admissions advisor, but ultimately had a bunch of health stuff come crashing down and couldn’t manage or afford grad school since. [Also want to mention that I was particularly happy to see this job because I’m pretty sure they have tuition benefits even for part time employees, but even without that, it’s so much of what I love to do and I really like the university.]

    3. Here’s one of the really tricky bits: part of what would make me good at this job, imo, could be seen as liabilities – that I have ADD, clinical depression & anxiety. And the depression & anxiety are what led me to be fired from my last job, but also the time that I’ve been unemployed has given me an opportunity to dive into a lot of anti-racism education that would make me a good candidate for this job, as I’d be working with a very diverse population. Do I use all of this in the cover letter, or find another angle? Or is it not something to stress about because if me using this in my cover letter means I don’t get the job, then the job wasn’t the right fit for me anyway?

    Thanks as always for the great help here!

    1. WellRed*

      Do not mention all the diagnoses in a cover letter or interview. It.may seem unfair but it will not help you and could hurt you. People want to know why you can do the job, not the issues that may present challenges. If your right for the job, none of the rest should matter ( theoretically, but frame it that way). Good luck!

  227. buttercup's anonymous hairpin*

    My manager had a very bizarre reaction this week and I need some help with the optics.

    I work for a Fortune 500 company in a technical role, and I am the only person of my gender on our team. For the most part, the folks I work with are reasonable, live by their better natures, keep the gossip to the minimum, and are pretty helpful when last minute issues arise (which is not infrequent, given the nature of the work.)

    Fergus, my manager, stepped into the role vacated by someone who was fired for performance reasons. It is my understanding that this management assignment was only to be on an interim basis until a replacement was hired on a full-time basis.

    Fast forward: Organizational reshuffle and it is looking more and more like Fergus will be asked to manager our group for the foreseeable future–and I think he is just now realizing the enormity of what is being asked of him. So he’s flailing and he is unwilling or unable to ask for help or support from his management peers and our Grandbosses.

    His flailing usually takes the form of poor time management, inability to complete tasks timely–including following up on them, absenteeism, inability to hear feedback, and being unresponsive when decisions are needed in more prolonged or difficult situations.

    This is killing our morale and our trust in Fergus, and folks are starting to come to me (as the next nearest senior and reasonable person in the room) for guidance and decisions when he isn’t available.

    When Fergus needs to speak to me about a matter, he will come up and kneel next to my chair and speaks me in a slow and sing-song voice. This is odd enough in itself to the point where it bothers me–and other members of the team.

    Last week while he was doing this, I asked him politely and kindly to sit at the empty desk/chair next to me so that we could talk through an urgent matter (versus this kneeling and trying to awkwardly balance a laptop on a knee or on a hand).

    His reaction? He ran to another open desk some distance from me, muttering under his breath, and just about slams his laptop down. Instead of talking through the matter with me, he is huffing, puffing, and typing very loudly on his laptop. A few minutes later he runs down the aisle away from the desk (and me), tells me he sent an electronic reply–and disappears for half an hour.

    I wasn’t the only one scratching my head immediately after this happened; while Fergus is non-confrontational to the extreme and has been known to raise his voice and play tit-for-tat when questioned or corrected by his peers, his reaction to my polite request (and knees on concrete!) was really out of proportion.

    I am baffled and I’m curious how I might approach Fergus about this weird behavior. I am also wondering if I should just let this go?

    1. valentine*

      If it happens again, talk to his supervisor. It’s weird enough I would want to do that now, and I wouldn’t feel safe to address it with Fergus.

      Slow singsong is insulting and/or creepy.

  228. COA*

    I hate my manager and her assistant.

    She always makes comments like “you’re a quiet person”. So what if I am? I am who I am. move the fuck on if you don’t like it.
    And my assistant always tries to double cover what I say, and then come to the same conclusions that I do. He then says that I don’t listen to his instructions well enough – well he makes ambigious points a lot that don’t make sense.

  229. Rez123*

    I recently got a title change at work. Technically it was a promotion but it came form organisational changes so it’s not really a traditional promotion. My job description stays the same. Difference is that I handle larger geographical area. I was wondering if in my CV I could just put the title above my previous title and just have one text part in the CV that covers both?

    1. Eric*

      Keep it as one entry on your resume, but change the title to your new title. Change any bullet points referencing the geographical area to reflect your current duties.

  230. Eric*

    What’s the deal with recruiters who cold call, when your resume and LinkedIn state you’re currently employed? I understand that recruiting firms probably instruct their recruiters to do it, but why is it that they do that?

    I leave my phone on at work because my parents are older, and while they can still get around on their own, they’ve had a couple of emergencies over the last few years that have required me to leave work. It hasn’t happened often, thankfully, but it has happened. My manager understands that and supports it.

    I got a call on Friday that went like this:

    Recruiter: “Is this Eric?”
    Me: “Who is this?”
    Recruiter: “Is this Eric?”
    Me: “You’re calling me at work. Please tell me who this is.”
    Recruiter: “I’m Joe with Staffing Associates and we have a client who’s hiring for a –”
    Me: “Sorry, I’m not looking for a new job, and calling me at work disrupts my work day. Please take me off your internal candidate list. [hang up]”

    A couple of minutes later I got an email from the guy. He sent it to two email accounts (I made a separate professional email a few years ago, which is on my resume, LinkedIn, and any other professional website). The email was: “Hi Eric, Joe from Staffing Associates here. As per our call, [insert job description here]. Any interest?”

    My reply: “Joe, like I said on the phone, I don’t work with recruiters who cold call because it disrupts my day and makes my employer wonder if I’m job searching. Please remove me from any internal candidate list you have. Thanks.”

    Was I too harsh? Maybe I was socialized to be overly nice, but I felt like a bad guy after sending that.

    It’s still unprofessional and annoying if you’re unemployed — I could be at the gym, running errands, on another interview — but it’s nearly 100% certain that’s the case if you’re currently working f/t.

    I know that this is an entitled gripe, but I’m also genuinely curious why this happens.

    1. Rick Tq*

      You were perfectly polite, it was his email that was rude and intrusive. I’d block his number and email address as well, he doesn’t seem to catch a clue.

    2. 653-CXK*

      You were just fine in your response.

      One recruiting agency contacted me last week, and I said “Sorry, I’m now working elsewhere – please take me off your recruiting list. Other agencies…well, let’s just say they’re a little more persistent, as one of them last year tried their damndest to get a hold of me after I blocked them on my phone, messaging and email. I think they finally took the hint ;-)

  231. Shy Orchid*

    I’m not sure if there’s anyone here, but I’d like someone’s input about this situation I have (there’s a TL;DR version at the end, if you want)

    Last year switched jobs. Twice.

    My first time switching was from my first job out-of-college and I left because the place was extremely toxic and, after the company was sold to a new owner, management got terrible (mistreating and abusing people just to get them to quit so they didn’t have to pay them unemployment money, and other sleazy tactics).

    The second job was in a new position in a similar industry that interested me and I wanted to explore, but the company turned out to be like the updated version of First-job (toxic environment, long unpaid work hours, getting yelled at for having a life outside work, etc.). Second Job was such a blow to my confidence and my being that my depression acted up and I lost 10 pounds in like 3-4 months of being there. That’s when I knew I had to get out of that place before my health got worse.

    While I was on Second Job, I got an offer at a small digital marketing agency to do the same thing I did at Second Job and I was so desperate I took it. The job didn’t turn out to be bad and it actually made me gain my confidence in my work back. There are bad things at this place as well but it’s just like any other place and they are things I can handle and can live with. The only thing that worries me it’s the financial stability of the company.

    I’ve worked here for 5 months and last month our payment was delayed for almost two-weeks. The owners blamed it on some “unforeseen circumstance” they couldn’t have prevented (like clients paying late, blah, blah) and said it wouldn’t happen again. I would be inclined to believe them if it wasn’t for the fact that my coworkers who have longer time working here say this is not a one-time thing, and that this has happened multiple times over the course of their time there The person who has worked here the longest (2 years, because they have a really high turnover rate) says, that every time things get “difficult” they say the same speech of “we’ll get better” but they don’t actually do.

    I wanted to stay at Second Job for at least 6 months before leaving, to not seem like a job-hopper, but I got the Third Job offer and accepted. Now I’m receiving an offer to work with an international company that it’s not established in my country thus I wouldn’t be “employed” to them but be more like an “independent contractor”.

    I still haven’t received the offer but I’m really open to it due to the fact I don’t really love my current position (as I’ve realized it doesn’t go with my long term career goals and I’m looking for a switch) and also I would get to work with a friend who is also my creative partner and we’ve done amazing work together in the past, so I have no issues with that.

    Being seen as a job-hopper it’s not a big worry I have, but I have talked to my parents about this and they seem reluctant to this offer due to the fact that I wouldn’t get the same benefits as a “fully established company”.

    The problem is, that I don’t think I work for a stable company (as they think) and several, more than 5, of my coworkers and ex-coworkers have told me, this company is basically a sinking ship, in fact, the owners themselves called it a sinking ship and called the ones who decided to jump ship “rats” for abandoning.

    TL;DR: After switching jobs twice last year I got a new job offer for freelance/independent contractor type of work, should I take it when it’s something of a start-up/new project? My current job offers some benefits this new one probably wouldn’t (health insurance, paid vacation time, unemployment benefits) but the company it’s not financially stable and I fear they could go to bankruptcy at any time.

    Am I wrong for trying to “jump from a sinking ship”?

    1. Fey*

      Since the new job offer is freelance, are you able to take it while still keeping Second Job? Does the freelance job only pay when there’s work or does the freelance here mean that you’re an independent contractor but you will get a salary on a fixed date every two weeks?
      Definitely not wrong to jump ship but if the new job doesn’t offer a stable income, then I’d rather stay at a job that pays late than a job that pays nothing. But like I said, if you can do both at the same time, even better. I’d certainly look into jumping ship if the freelance job becomes more permanent or something completely new and better comes along… But not just yet.

      1. Shy Orchid*

        First, thanks for replying! Second, it’s more like the latter, working as an independent contractor and getting paid every two weeks.

        If I could work both jobs I would do it, however, the person who made me the new offer said it’s highly probable they would need me full-time, and my current job is already full-time so I would have to choose one over the other.

        I do have the reassurance of both the offerer and my friend telling me that if I accept, it would become something more stable as the offerer wants to establish their own business in the area and me becoming part of the team would make it big enough they would have to do it.

    2. Observer*

      “Wrong”? No.

      The question is whether this is a financially wise decision. Unless you’re being offered enough to cover the insurance you are losing, I’d probably pass on the offer. But I *would* be looking for a new job. And the answer to “why are you looking” is “My company is having serious financial troubles, to the point that our last payroll got delayed for a couple of weeks.” Any functional organization will recognize this as a MAJOR financial red flag. With very few exceptions, payroll is the ONE expense that needs to handled on time no matter what.

      1. Shy Orchid*

        Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate it.

        I briefly spoke with a coworker about the offer to see if it was a wise enough move and she told me she has several friends that do the same thing. When I asked her about the insurance thing, they simply told me I could pay it myself and my friend told me I could talk to the offerer to include the sum in my contract.

        Something I did forget to mention in my initial post it’s that despite me being 5 months into this job, I still don’t have health insurance. I mean, by contract I do, but in reality, they haven’t talked to me about it since I came on board despite me asking (I’m not the only person this is happening to, some of my co-workers have the same situation as well). I’m a bit lax about this because I’m still covered by my mother’s insurance for a few years, but it’s not a bad thing to have.

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