open thread – March 8-9, 2019

by Alison Green on March 8, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

You may also like:
{ 1,965 comments }

{ 1,965 comments… read them below }

  1. Eh*

    Is moving too fast in the hiring process a red flag?

    I’m currently interviewing for what sounds like a great job with a company that’s a household name and has a good reputation as a brand and an employer. In my experience, hiring in corporate roles tends to be a bit of a drawn-out process, but they are just rocketing me through this experience. I’ve had some great interviews, and, ultimately, I think I’d take the role if offered at this point, but I’m wary that they’re trying to fill this position just a little too quickly.

    Am I overthinking this? Is this the norm for companies that have a quality, functional HR department (unlike my current company…)?

    1. JokeyJules*

      how fast are we talking? We need a timeline to better asses, can you map out the timeline?

        1. JokeyJules*

          They might just feel very confidently about you! Or have the time to really focus on getting the position filled. I wouldn’t be too concerned if everything else seems to work.

        2. peachie*

          I don’t think that’s too worrying. Do you mean “initial contact” as in first interview or when you applied? I’m not involved in hiring, but it doesn’t seem like a red flag to me (in the absence of any other red flags).

          1. Eh*

            Since recruiter contact.

            I’m used to a hiring process that drags on for months because HR can’t get it together and candidates take other jobs before we can move them through the process. My last interview process a few years back wasn’t slow, but it wasn’t this accelerated.

            1. Brett*

              Internal or external recruiter?
              Is this a contractor position or a full-time direct employee?

                2. Brett*

                  Seems fast then, but I bet they have multiple open positions, so they don’t have to worry about interviewing others.

            2. AL*

              For reference, I work for a global company, in one of the country level head offices in Europe.

              About 1 week makes sense if they’re focused and organised. Week 1 is screening and 1st interview, week 2 or 3 is second round interview. Then senior interiew, then job offer…
              When I’ve been involved in hiring I prefer to spend 1-3 days interviewing and testing candidates in week 1, rather than having the interviews all spread out…

            3. quirkypants*

              Not a red flag for me. I’ve worked in tech and it can can quite fast. It’s even faster for a position that is difficult to hire for once they find a great candidate.

              I once got a phone screen on a Friday, interviewed the following Wednesday with my boss, called back in to meet the C-level my boss reported to on Friday and had an offer Monday end of day.

              I found it later the position had been very difficult to hire for.

            4. JulieCanCan*

              I’d be so glad not having to deal with that drawn out b.s., unless there are glaring red flags you should be thrilled!

        3. stitchinthyme*

          That doesn’t sound completely out of the norm, although in my experience the larger the company the more protracted the hiring process tends to be.

          What I would consider a red flag would be them making an offer on the spot and asking you to start really soon. That happened to my husband once: first and only interview on a Thursday, offer on the spot, and they asked him to start the very next day. Should have been a huge red flag but we had just relocated and my husband was unemployed, so he didn’t need to give notice or anything, so he accepted. Turned out that the nice guy who’d interviewed him and who he was looking forward to working with was leaving; Ray was his replacement, that Friday was his last day, and he had ONE DAY to learn the entire job and environment (it was a web developer position).

          Yeah, that one was the job from hell. He was only there a few months before he found something better.

          1. twig*

            I was going to chime in about same-day offers. My husband (who has had ridiculously bad luck with employers) has had a few same-day offers (as in same day as the interview) — one of them even called him as he was pulling out of the parking lot after the interview.

            All of his same-day offers have resulted in weird/messed up work situations.

            1. TechWorker*

              I had a same day offer (they called me as I was walking home and got me to turn around to sign the contract) and it was actually fine, I worked there quite happily for 8 months (and they always knew that’s all the time I had as I was going back to uni). It was a receptionists position and compared to all the stories on here, a pretty functional workplace ;)

          2. Lonely Aussie*

            Only for white collar work though, my last blue collar Ag job, I dropped off my resume and had an offer within about two hours of doing so.
            Started about four business days later.

        4. Brett*

          I work in IT for a household name company, and 1 week from initial contact to second interview is perfectly normally.
          Because we do each hiring individually (rather than people competing for the same position), we often can go from first contact to offer in under two weeks.

          1. Brett*

            I should add that most of our IT hires are contractor positions through consulting companies. That is what makes the hiring so fast. Direct hire full time takes longer than that. In our organization, contractors and direct full time employees are treated equally on a day to day basis; it is pay (much higher for contractors) and benefits (much better for full time, though contractors have some through their company) that are the main differentiation.

      2. Spencer Hastings*

        “Timeline to Better Asses” — that’s the name of my new fitness program!

    2. irene adler*

      Time frame for all this -week, less?
      As long as there’s been adequate time for YOU to ask all the questions, are satisfied with all the answers, and they’ve asked plenty of questions themselves, I wouldn’t worry. Some places have things together.

      I’m at a small company and we’ve lengthened our hiring process from 3-4 days to about two weeks-which in some places is considered lightening fast.
      I’m interviewing at a place where’s it’s been over six weeks now. Have had two interviews and I understand they are still ‘pondering’ things.

      1. Eh*

        Around a week from contact to first interview. I’m satisfied with their questions and my opportunities to ask my own.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Speaking as someone who works at a household name brand, sometimes the job has actually been open or needed for awhile and they just want to get someone in – if you don’t see any other red flags, I wouldn’t count that as one. But I would be curious about how fast we’re talking.

        1. ThatGirl*

          That’s a little fast, but not outrageously so – do you feel like you’ve had all of your questions answered? If you do get an offer feel free to take a few days to consider.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think that’s unreasonable. It may be unusual, but it’s not unreasonable. Now if it were around a week from initial contact to an offer, that would be even more unusual. Red flags come in only when they start pressuring you to take the job and not take time to think about it once an offer is made.

      2. Nessun*

        I work for a major entity with offices around the globe, and my initial contact-to-offer timing was 4 days. Normally it’s a LOT longer, but they needed someone in that chair ASAP. So it can happen. I think it’s often a function of need/urgency when it comes to large name entities.

    4. Just Me*

      Unless there are other red flags, you are probably overthinking it. It could be they have shorter notice for filling a position. It could be this particular role can’t just stay open for an extended period. There maybe some internal deadline, like they need someone trained up by a particular date. I work in a sector that can be notorious for moving slow in hiring, but my organization moves quickly with hiring because we need to be fully staffed.

      1. Eh*

        I’m inclined to think a shorter period is part of it. Sounds like the person who held the position last was a poor fit, so I’d assume that’s insipiring a little urgency, which is totally understandable. My company just doesn’t do anything urgently even when they should be – we routinely have positions that desperately need to be filled sitting vacant for months – so I guess I’m just too used to that.

        1. Super Dee Duper Anon*

          Do you have any idea if they’ve been searching for awhile. If they’ve been searching for awhile or just have already interviewed a decent amount of people they might have a pretty good idea of what they’re looking for, and you happen to be it.

          Or another option – maybe the key decision maker’s schedules all just happen to line up. That’s really what the hiring timeline was based on at my last pretty large firm. Timeline could be 2 weeks or timeline could be 2 months – it all just depended how quickly I could find time for the candidate to meet with all interviewers (without having them come back for a zillion different individual interviews) and then how quickly those interviewers could find time to touch base with one another.

          It does sound a bit fast, but I wouldn’t consider it a huge red flag on its own. Just keep an eye out for other signs of rush or short term thinking at the expense of the long term.

    5. BlueWolf*

      I don’t think a fast timeline is a red flag in itself. As long as everything else seems good I wouldn’t worry about it. For my current position (entry-level role so that is a factor), I think it was basically 1 week from when I applied to having a offer. In fact, the internal recruiter actually called me in the evening about 30 minutes after I applied and asked to schedule a phone interview for the next day. I think they were just in a hurry to fill the position.

    7. Beth Jacobs*

      I got one of my past jobs in an interview process that took two weeks from application to offer (granted, it was an entry level job) and it was a good company to work for. If anything, it shows the company isn’t tied in bureaucracy.
      I’d only consider it a red flag if they insisted on you starting immediately. Expecting employees to quit without notice on their former employer is weird.

      1. Forkeater*

        Agreed – moving quickly through the interview process isn’t necessarily bad but wanting you to start next week is.

      2. Yabba*

        Same happened with my current job. The department had been short-staffed for a while and they had new work on the horizon so it was 2 weeks from initial contact to the offer. They were just in a rush to get a new person started before work picked up.

    8. Peachkins*

      My husband worked at one point for the well-known company that I’ve been with for some time. It took several weeks for me to be hired after my initial interview. He was hired literally two days after his. The thing is, we were hiring for multiple positions in the department he ended up working in as we’d had a number of people leave in a relatively short amount of time (for a variety of reasons). Even though he eventually left, we both consider the company to be a good one with a great office culture, reasonable work expectations, and quality HR, so I wouldn’t necessarily see a quick hiring as a red flag.

    9. CupcakeCounter*

      That’s was my experience with CurrentJob and I’ve been here over 6 years. It probably is a sign of competent HR and a hiring manager who has a clear vision of what they want.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      No necessarily a red flag.
      It could be they have an urgent need, or are trying to get it in for the new fiscal year or something. And while you’re right that with larger companies it can be a slow process, some departments are able to accomplish hiring more quickly if they’ve got all their ducks in a row before posting the job. Some managers may also have more hiring authority, and can simply make up their minds and move faster when it’s not by committee.
      I mean, I’d be wary if they offer you the job immediately, but 1-3 weeks seems ok and not red flag territory.

    11. Anon Anon Anon*

      If the company is doing well, they might need to fill the role asap and they might have limited time to spend on the hiring process. In other words, it could be a positive sign – that the company is growing and thriving. Of course it could be a red flag too. They could be having a hard time filling that role for a reason, or they could be sloppy about hiring (meaning that you’d have to work with other people who weren’t well vetted). Just look at the big picture and go by your overall impression of things, taking everything into account.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        I think that sounds fine. Two of the jobs I’ve been hired for had even faster timelines–and I was at one of those roles for more than 4 years. The jobs I have had at larger corporations took much longer, but did not end up being “better.”

    12. SciDiver*

      It’d be a red flag for me if they made an offer after very little time talking with me, rather than if their process was really speedy. As a few people mentioned, they might be trying to fill the position quickly or just be really excited to move you forward before you get another offer! Consider more how much time they spend interviewing you and the overall contact you’ve had with them–I’d be hesitant to take a position that didn’t do their due diligence to get to know the candidate they plan to hire.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on your role with the company. If they’re hiring a high ranking individual after an interview and a couple nights to sleep on it, probably not a great sign. But if you’re just a middle rung somewhere, if they know their selection pool and their need to fill the spot, why would they drag it out unnecessarily?

      I think you’re looking for flags where there isn’t any! And it sounds like they have a good HR department, so that means things move faster than when you have a dysfunctional one.

    14. LadyByTheLake*

      It is not at all unusual to have some of the initial steps go very fast. The red flag to watch out for (and the one I wished I’d paid more attention to the two times it happened) is for an offer to be almost immediate or before there has really been time to meet more than one person (unless it is a small place). Both times that I was essentially offered a job on the spot turned out to be disasters.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah my current job has kinda been that way. Only had one interview with a project manager who basically said he was going to offer me the job after we had finished.

        It’s hard too when the person who interviews you isn’t someone that you’d be working with [and so can’t really tell you a lot about what you’ll be doing.] I know sometimes that can’t be avoided [I work as a federal contractor and the person designated in charge of all of the contract employees works in a different department] but I think it’s a cause for concern if you don’t get to meet or ask questions of any of your future managers/supervisors.

      2. Eh*

        I’ll get to meet with at least 4 people once this is all said and done, and I have a very firm understanding of what the job entails and what they’re looking for, so I don’t think that’s an issue, either.

        1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          In that case, this pace is probably a benefit, not a problem. Most letters here are around processes that take too slow. If this company can have you move through the process both quickly and effectively, take that as a sign that this organization is highly functional.

    15. TooTiredToThink*

      This happened to me – for a *government* job. I had a job offer within a week of *initial contact*. Since it was through a recruiting agency I started thinking it was a scam. No, it did eventually turn out to be a government *contractor* position and it did end up legit (I had to move cross country, so I didn’t actually start until about 6 weeks after the offer). But it freaked me out how quickly everything moved. Because I. Do. Not. Like. Sudden. Change (I can accept change, but its gonna freak me out big time if its sudden). It was only later that I found out that they had found my resume and went through the recruiting agency – yes they were desperate but they already had known they wanted me from my resume.

      I can see why its worrying; but absent other red flags; I don’t think its a bad thing at all. But maybe just ask how much longer the person that you are taking the role from will be there (or how long it has been since they left).

      1. slow down*

        I had a position that went from my application to an offer in about 2 weeks. I accepted and after that it was one red flag after another. I ended up withdrawing from the position because they started throwing curve balls literally the day before I was supposed to start.

        (Curve balls like telling me that I had to comply with additional requirements beyond what was outlined in previous documents and policies. To be honest, once I began dealing with HR after accepting the position it was all a nightmare.)

    16. Bostonian*

      It may slow down! For my current job, I applied online, and someone emailed me the next day to set up a phone screen. The phone screen was within a week, and then they quickly set up an in-person interview.

      From that point on, it was about a month before I had an offer in writing and accepted. Maybe in your case they’re moving quickly now because they can, and the HR/offer/background check stuff is going to take longer.

      As long as you don’t get any other indicators that they’re making hasty decisions or not being thorough about finding the best fit, I don’t think it’s anything to worry about.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, with my current job I got the initial screen and interview pretty quickly, but then time stood still for a few weeks while they dealt with a corporate move and some reorganization of the department – which made me think the position wouldn’t be around after all. But it was, and after I got an offer from another company, that motivated these guys to move on me.

    17. Sled dog mama*

      At current job I went from submitting my application to accepting an offer in 3 weeks. It didn’t throw up red flags for me because at initial contact they told me that they were looking to move quickly because of the toll the increased workload was having on my future coworkers.

    18. H.J.G.*

      I work for a household name company, and we essentially have a first-past-the-post approach to hiring, so we don’t interview a pool for a role, then pick. People just get scheduled for interviews and moved from step to step as they pass those interviews, so someone could very conceivably get hired in a week (assuming a confluence of events, like the candidate’s schedule lined up well with the interviewers, etc).

    19. Thrown into the fire new manager*

      We are not a big household name or a large corporation. We had a job listed for quite a while but when the perfect candidate came around, we moved really fast. Are you a really strong candidate? It could have been open for a while and someone really liked you and said that they needed you.

      1. Eh*

        I believe I’m a really good candidate for this position, so that may be part of it. I applied to this role very intentionally; it wasn’t one of those “oh, maybe we’ll see…” kind of applications.

      2. catwoman2965*

        This is how I was hired in my current job. I went through an external recruiter, had an interview, got feedback that same day, and also that they wanted to set me up with a second interview with the big boss. But, for whatever reason, that never happened, and they simply made me an offer within a couple of days! I found out later, the person I interviewed with, who i would be reporting to, told her boss “you NEED to hire her”

    20. Annoyed*

      I’m hoping for some advice on an extremely petty problem. I get jealous and resentful when coworkers get assigned plum projects. I’m considered a high performer at work and I enjoy the projects assigned to me, most of which are high-profile (and I know I realistically can’t do ALL of the best projects), but I still find myself getting irritated when a coworker gets a cool project. It’s not every coworker I feel this way about – mostly the coworkers who are fairly lazy, but are assigned exciting projects anyway.

      How can I avoid feeling this way and/or be more supportive of my coworkers?

      1. thankful for AAM.*

        Hi annoyed, I get frustrated by this too. But for me it is because there is seldom any conversation about the big picture and all the projects. I am the only one with teaching experience, why was someone else put in charge of training and teaching without even a conversation about the department plans and how I might fit in?

        I find the best solution is to focus on yourself and what you are doing and doing it well. You have your work, they have theirs.

    21. Not So Super-visor*

      You might be overthinking it. In the best job that I ever had, I went from application, 1st interview, 2nd interview, and an offer all within the span of the week. It helped that I was unemployed due to a recent move for my spouse, so I could fit in their first available interview times. The only reason that I ever left that job was because we moved again for my husband’s job.

    22. Clawfoot*

      I’ve been in my current position for almost 11 months now, and I’m very glad I took this offer. I mention this because I had the same reservations you did about how quickly things were moving. Here’s what my timeline looked like:

      Thursday: send in initial application.
      Friday: contacted to schedule a phone interview for Monday
      Monday: phone interview. Was told to expect a call regarding next steps by Wednesday. ONE HOUR LATER was contacted to schedule an in-person interview on Wednesday.
      Wednesday: in-person interview. Was asked to return later that SAME DAY for a second interview. Had the second interview.
      Thursday: was conditionally offered the position (upon satisfactory completion of references).

      It took just over a week and a half for them to complete checking my references (because one of my former managers was being difficult about it — NO END OF STRESS), but then I had a signed and accepted job offer.

      After the fact, I learned that things moved so quickly because the the department’s director (the one who conducted the second interview) was about to go on medical leave for a month or so and they wanted to get someone approved before that happened.

      So it worked out for me, if anecdata is useful to you. :)

    23. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t really see that as a red flag. As others have mentioned, there could be lots of legitimate reasons for that.

      I’m starting a new job Monday and my process was very fast. I was contacted by the company’s HR person on a Wednesday (a former colleague gave them my name), had my first interview the following Monday (I was going to be out of town, otherwise they would have had me in the very next day), second interview that Wednesday, and offer Thursday. So slightly more than a week. I felt it was extremely fast and it made my head spin, but knowing now what they were looking for in this particular position, it’s not a red flag to me at all.

    24. Hazelthyme*

      Some companies just make it a priority to move through the process quickly for strong candidates; it’s part of their strategy to attract the best talent. The time frame for the interview/hiring process for my current job was as follows:
      -1st interview (phone) 2 days after my initial contact with recruiter
      -2nd interview (phone) 10 days after the 1st
      -Final interview (in person) 1 month after the 2nd
      -Verbal offer 3 days (1 business day) after the interview, written offer the day after that

      Not quite as quick as the OP’s 1 week till the 2nd interview, but fairly impressive given that we were working across multiple time zones and around my interviewers’ and my own current client work, AND the in-person interview meant getting the interviewers and me to HQ on a Friday from home/work locations across the US. And yes, given that I hadn’t actively been looking and my industry is rife with recruiters laying it on thick at first and then disappearing, the prompt communication and speedy offer did make a difference in my willingness to accept and my enthusiasm for the job.

      I don’t think this is a red flag as long as you’re given the time and information you need to make a reasonable decision. I’d be much more concerned with a company that pressured you to 1) interview only at X or Y time, with no willlingness to accommodate your schedule; and/or 2) pushed you to accept an offer without having key answers about salary or other aspects of the job, or without a day or 2 to think it over.

    25. Database Developer Dude*

      I had an interview where they offered me the job as I was walking out to the Metro station after the interview was over. Any slower than that and I think you’re fine.

    26. M2*

      I would be careful. My partner was fast tracked for a senior role at such a company and was told by the President that he would be fast tracked and was the final choice. This was after he told them he had another offer in hand and they told him that he was their pick so he said no to the other organization. They wouldn’t give him salary and forced his hand and then suddenly needed more time. They also called his references who all told him the questions asked were pro forma (which made no sense for such a senior role). The female President told him he was still her first choice but the EVP of HR, another female, didn’t want to hire a man (yep we also have this in writing) and that she’s up for CEO when the current one retired and didn’t want to rock the boat with HR. It ended up being for the best because after doing more digging the organization, a household name, seemed very disfunctional (my partner was actually warned by someone who works there and who he went to school with). I think it could be a good thing or a bad thing but my advice don’t let them contact your references unless they give you an offer (contingent on references and background check). My partners references don’t have the time to do a reference call unless the person is the finalist. It’s a waste of time to do otherwise. Good luck!

    27. Qwerty*

      Do you have any other red flags or is this a case of looking for something bad because it seems too good to be true?

      Most of my experience is things moving quickly between initial contact and final interview. Sometimes there’s a longer waiting period after the final interview (especially if you are the first candidate to get that far). You might be a great fit so you are sailing through, or they might have already interviewed a bunch of candidates and need you to get to final interview so they can make a decision, or maybe there are multiple openings in this type of position so they don’t need to compare you to anyone. There’s many non-red flag scenerios that I could list.

      I’d say there’s an equal distribution of good and bad companies in my fast and slow experiences, so on its own I don’t see a problem. I’ve walked out of multiple interviews with unofficial offers (getting the paperwork together takes longer). If you feel like everything is moving too fast, feel free to ask! Maybe they need someone to start soon because of an important project or maybe they are just always this fast so candidates don’t lose interest.

    28. TootsNYC*

      there might be a big lag AFTER the second interview.

      I’m thinking you may be a great candidate, and so they’re enthusiastic and want to get you into the process quickly. But they may slow down later, or have one of those “waiting on the executive above to sign off finally” delays that often happen.

      Also, in my experience w/ a decent large-ish company, HR will be fast, and HR to first interview will be fast, because HR is pushing it. But it can slow down later, when the hiring manager gets more involved, bcs hiring managers are often pulled in different directions, and HR, esp. an internal recruiter who can specialize, is often very organized and proactive.

    29. Blue Eagle*

      This happened to me once. It was a situation where the final candidate refused the offer and the second-choice candidate had already taken another offer so they were back to square one.

      I was sent to them by a recruiter (just started my search), they interviewed me, another interview, and three weeks later I was working at a great job with a great company.

      So, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is problematic, but during the interview process you should ask the manager that you will be working for (and not necessarily HR) why the process is progressing so quickly.

    30. CL*

      Depending on the level, it doesn’t seem too fast. They’re probably in a time crunch because either the position is currently unstaffed or the person who is leaving is leaving soon and the training window is closing.

    31. Ella Vader*

      My boss’ daughter just graduated with a masters degree in computer science. She interviewed with a company on a Wednesday, had a job offer by the next Wednesday, and started working there two weeks after the job offer came through.

      So, maybe some companies don’t want to waste time when they know they’ve found a strong candidate?

    32. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve had it happen once where it was NOT
      a debacle. I was moving home after giving up on recession era Silicon Valley. I applied on a prep visit home and was called for an interview the same week. The 1hour interview was extended to 3 because it was going well and some key people happened to be in the office. The next day I was due to fly back and had a call for a follow-up interview. I had to explain I’d be back in 2 weeks but I could do a call. I had an offer phone call waiting on my Silicon Valley voicemail.
      I was there for 4 years and if they could have let me TC fulltime after i married & moved out of state, I might still be there.
      (I married someone who doesn’t like crowds, and there’s not much more crowded than NYC, so I moved to him.)

  2. Are we the baddies?*

    Does anyone else have a job where they’re seen as the bad guys? How did you get into it? Are you trying to get out?

    I do foreclosure work, which can be difficult. However, I strongly believe that the firm I work for tries to do right. I’m not sure if I want to stay here forever, but it’s been several years and I have no current plans to leave.

    1. Pompom*

      I used to fire people for a living. They were in deep and “deserved it” most of the time, but the karmic weight of it was not sustainable for me.

      I’m now in an opposite line of work: I am a career coach at a professional school. Happy face at the beginning of your career, rather than the grim reaper at the end.

      1. Not Me*

        I currently fire people for a living. The reason I do it is to ensure it’s necessary, it’s the only option, all other avenues for improvement have been exhausted, and it’s done with respect.

        If you’re doing it for the right reasons and doing it properly there shouldn’t be a negative karmic reaction to worry about.

        2. Sloan Kittering*

          I still think there can by a psychic burden related to always meeting people on one of the worst days of their lives and always being the bearer of bad news. I’ve heard this from friends who are cops – almost nobody is happy to be either having to call the cops or to having cops called on them – even if they feel what they are doing is the Right Thing or Justice. It’s still just emotionally hard.

          1. Not Me*

            Maybe it all comes down to the way you view things (glass half empty/half full). Most people who aren’t performing up to expectations at their job are not happy. I have seen relief on people’s faces more often than you would expect. 100% of the time, if one side of an employment relationship is not happy, the other side isn’t either.

            Now, laying people off who have done nothing to “deserve” it and are just the victim of a failing company, industry, or economy; that keeps me up at night. Luckily, I don’t have to do that very often, if at all anymore.

            1. handknit socks*

              I’ll be the exception. I was fired from a job, that I thought I was doing ok at, if not knocking it out of the park. I thought there was a slow ramp up of my knowledge, but I was really shocked to be fired.

              1. Gerald*

                I think Not Me’s point was that they made a big effort to ensure that the firings were well done, and if you do it right then the person will have many opportunities to improve, they will not be shocked, and hopefully there may be some understanding.

          2. Joielle*

            I felt this a lot when I briefly did public defense work – all of your clients are having one of the worst days of their lives. Even if the pay and case load were sustainable, it’s just hard to do it day after day. You have to compartmentalize and I couldn’t do it without becoming really cynical.

            1. Future Homesteader*

              I used to work with public defenders, and they’re my heroes. I hope that you now have a lovely job with good pay, interesting work, and good hours.

          3. Lissa*

            I think that’s different, though. Of course it’s an emotional weight for anyone in a job where they are likely seeing someone on the worst day of their life, but that seems different from “karmic” weight which implies that the person is doing something wrong by working the job in a sense that is different.

            1. Sloan Kittering*

              That is a good point, although if everybody is angry with you every day you can start to internalize that and feel bad / like you *must* be doing something wrong.

              1. CL*

                And even if you don’t feel that way, just having to ramp yourself up emotionally to deal with that is draining.

            2. Not Me*

              I agree, and I guess that’s why I kinda bristled at the “karmic weight” comment.

        1. Quake Johnson*

          Yeah this confuses me a little too. I’m just picturing “This is Jim, He’s our fire-er.”

    2. JokeyJules*

      Part of my responsibilities is reminding and following up with technical staff on their administrative duties. It’s a lot of emails following up or asking people if they entered in this small amount of data into the database.

      i love it. I know that it’s annoying sometimes for them because in their bigger picture the details are extremely minute and not necessary to get their work done, but it matters a lot to the bigger picture for the organization. I’ve established my good intentions and attempts to be helpful, and there isn’t too much friction anymore.

      That being said, i know that a solid 80% of the time, when my coworkers see an email from me, there is a deep sigh involved.

      1. Grapey*

        Same (similar role with compliance) – I always try to acknowledge that entering stuff in forms isn’t what people want to be doing.

        The plus side is that I actually develop the software that they use, so part of my job is to be responsive if my “customers” (coworkers) complain about a feature and want it fixed.

        1. JokeyJules*

          my favorite plus side is sharing everyones good stats with them! I think that’s the only time they enjoy what i do because it relates to how big their bonuses will be

    3. Kristin*

      I’m an insurance broker, so I sell an invisible product. People think insurance cover their laziness/cheapness (not replacing their 25y/o roof and asking us to have their insurance pay for it. Hello, not a maintenance policy! And sometimes claims are declined because the client chose not to purchase a product (sewer backup coverage for example.)

      I love it though, and the best way for me to deal with it is to joke about it with my co-workers. Maybe not the best strategy?

      1. LsmithSD*

        Also an insurance agent here- but on the Commercial side. I did Personal lines for about half of my 20 years in the biz, and it made me so much more cynical than I realized. Commercial lines has some of the same claims, but not nearly as many. It sort of saved me a little. My coworkers and I still joke about the really stupid ones or the nightmare clients. I figure its better to do that than take it out on customers. It’s also why I’ve noticed our industry seems to drink more than others.

        I specialize in HOA coverage- and let me tell you- I know that HOA’s get a bad rap- but some of the crap residents/owners pull- it’s definitely a two way badly functioning street-

        1. Kristin*

          I had a client trip on a buckled floor… and she swallowed her bridge! It was covered though – mysterious disappearance lol

          1. LsmithSD*

            My favorite from Personal Lines days was when someone’s car was attacked by a flock of wild chickens while stopped for lunch on a country drive. Thank goodness for Comp.

            As for Commercial- we have one now where someone “tripped” over a box left in an aisle. Video Surveillance showed that this claimants spouse put the box there to stage it. Even after that discovery, claimant is still not accepting the settlement the carrier tried to give them to make them go away. Caused the poor clients one hell of an increase while the insurance company defends them.

            I’m sort of known as the “strong armed” one on my team, because I don’t let clients walk all over me. It’s funny, because I’m actually very nice, I just have a low tolerance for nonsense/lies/bullsnot.

      2. Coverage Associate*

        Sometimes I tell stories where insurers are the good guys. Like in the 19th century when they denied claims on overloaded slave ships. And today they’re denying claims on illegal fishing voyages.

        And by denying coverage for uncovered claims, we keep premiums down for everyone.

      3. Jack Russell Terrier*

        I think most people don’t know that sewer back-up is a thing. My Realtor told me about it twenty years ago. Everyone I tell has no idea it exists. They all say they’ll add it – but who knows … . Do you mention it to people? I think it would be helpful for it to be offered routinely.

    4. Lucy*

      I work in pharmaceutical patents, so …

      It’s fine. I know the good that’s being done. I have nothing to do with licensing or pricing.

    5. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

      I worked as a collections representative for six months. I am soft, and six months was about all I could take. The financial institution I worked for was always fair, and my manager tried to make sure that people were being done right and that we were helping people as much as we could before we got to repossession or foreclosure status…but it was still just emotionally hard work.

      I went back into lending, and oddly enough, my collections knowledge has actually proved to be extremely helpful in a lending position.

    6. nonnynon*

      I work for politicians, so I’m gonna say yes. The other day I was called a Nazi (well Gestapo) because I needed more information from a caller.

      I do actually like my job, I just think people have a large misunderstanding about politics and/or government.

    7. LawLady*

      I think to do these kinds of jobs you have to pretty deeply believe in the system. I have several friends who are public defenders, which is generally thought of as a “good guy” job, but they spend a lot of their time advocating on behalf of really terrible people (rapists, violent criminals). But they truly, deeply believe that everyone deserves a lawyer, so they see themselves as contributing to an overall just system, rather than as helping a rapist.

      Likewise, secured lending is an innovation which allows millions of people to buy homes and achieve stability. It only works if the collateral can be repossessed. If no one did foreclosures, banks would either charge much higher interest rates or not lend at all to anyone who wasn’t already rich. The system itself is good and welfare-enhancing and you are contributing to that!

      1. anonagain*

        “I think to do these kinds of jobs you have to pretty deeply believe in the system.”

        This is such a valuable insight.
        I think it should be part of more discussions about job/career fit.

      2. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

        I’m a lawyer. My firm mostly does family law, which means we often represent people in really complicated situations, especially involving custody. I tend to think of myself on the side of the good guys, but sometimes it’s more complex than that (ex: an abuse victim self-medicates with drugs, then has to deal with potentially losing kids to CPS because of the drugs). Usually the solution for this is thinking about it as “making the system work” rather than “only representing the nicest, best people.”

      3. TootsNYC*

        “they see themselves as contributing to an overall just system”

        Tell them that there are citizens out here who see them and value what they do for precisely that reason!

    8. Amber Rose*

      I’m a safety officer. I literally exist to ruin everyone’s fun and lecture them, and everyone sees me as a huge pain. I got into it by accident and I would love to get out. That said, I’m well paid with reasonable benefits and not too badly treated and I have a lot of inertia, so I’m probably here for a while longer.

      1. anna green*

        Me too! I actually really like it, in concept, but oh boy is it difficult. I used to work for a 3rd party firm so we could commiserate together, but now I am onsite safety, and I am alone. It’s so hard to not have any friends at work for all the reasons you mention.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I like the parts of my job that are paperwork. Like you say, I dislike the way it isolates me from everyone else at work, and the times I have to go lecture people for being unsafe.

      2. Isotopes*

        I think what you do is great. Because it’s easy for people to see it as “ruining everyone’s fun,” where really you actually exist to “ensure everyone makes it home at the end of the day with all their parts in the same condition in which they arrived at work.” I do a lot of safety stuff in my job because I enjoy it. I think that if an organization really values safety and isn’t just about ticking boxes, it gets into the culture and at that point, people better understand the reasons behind it.

        1. Amber Rose*

          It would be nice if people here valued safety. But since they don’t, all I can make are “paper hardhats,” so the government doesn’t shut us down.

          I don’t hate the work, I just hate trying to balance the requirements with people’s annoyance. Shoot the messenger is very much a thing.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That was how I framed it when I was supervising. “It’s part of my job to see to it that you go home with all your body parts that you had when you walked in this morning.”

          I think letting them participate and have say in safety matters also helped. They knew they could point something out to me and I would probably do something about it. There were times they alerted me to serious malfunctions. It wasn’t long and they had a culture of thinking about safety going on.
          It worked out well, the typical injury would be a small cut requiring first aid cream and a bandaid. We never had any major events. This was remarkable because it was an extremely fast paced environment.

      3. The Other Dawn*

        “I literally exist to ruin everyone’s fun and lecture them, and everyone sees me as a huge pain.”

        I’m in banking, and this right here is why I never applied for a compliance officer position! I’m in a compliance-related area now, but it’s more about looking for suspicious activity. Employees still don’t like when I have to call them, since that usually means the report they submitted to me isn’t detailed enough or they’ve filled out something incorrectly, but it’s not as bad as when I was doing actual consumer compliance. A lot of that requires so much paper work these days, even more so than when I was doing it six or seven years ago.

      4. Sloan Kittering*

        I used to feel that way just as a lifeguard! (this was in high school). My job was to try to stop excited little kids from running around the pool deck and to try to stop parents from bringing cute floaties into the water … I was basically the fun police. I felt bad every time I blew the whistle, bringing all the joy to a stop – even though there were good safety reasons for the rules. Also I was soft though haha.

      5. NLMC*

        My husband was in QA for a long time and part of that time was in a USDA plant. He was always the bad guy but he didn’t care. He knew if he wasn’t and something got through people could be seriously harmed.

      6. noahwynn*

        I work in an airline safety department. Generally I love my job, especially the investigation piece.

        However, I hate the idea that I’m there to ruin fun or make jobs harder. I specifically work in ground operations safety now, so the people at the airport checking you in, loading the bags onto the aircraft, etc. It is a good fit for my background and I’ve done the work before so I can commiserate with them. However, with a large number of airports, I can’t personally know everyone and unless they know me they do tense up when the safety guy is around.

        Also, I hate when there is a disagreement on the risk level between safety and the operational departments. It is never fun to keep escalating it up finally concurrence can be reached. I don’t hate confrontation but I understand why people avoid it because it can be exhausting after awhile.

        1. Amber Rose*

          That disagreement is the problem. Upper management sees me as a nuisance. You know what I have locked in my desk? A can of what is basically mustard gas. Pretty close, chemical composition wise. It was brought in without my knowledge and we have no way of using it safely. But when I met with management, I got a “we’ll cobble something together.” The documents on what this stuff does to living creatures made me physically ill and will haunt my nightmares for the rest of my life. You really wanna half ass this? How about no.

          Super frustrating. I like inspections and investigations and I like being an auditor but the cavalier attitude towards not killing people or people not hurting themselves is disheartening as hell.

    9. RabbitRabbit*

      I work with research regulatory issues at my institution. A lot of researchers seem to think of my division as basically being the paperwork/no fun/roadblock part and hate dealing with us. I keep explaining it as ‘we’re trying to protect our patients, as well as let you keep doing research, and prevent our institution from showing up on the evening news.’ Generally that tends to bring them back to reality.

      1. Masquerade*

        That’s what I’m hoping to go into after my degree (maybe 1-1.5 years from now)! My career advisor mentioned that you have to get used to being “the bad guy” and my research advisor keeps making jokes about me liking red tape…anyway if you have a piece of advice or a tip on getting into that industry, day to day life, how to deal with unhappy scientists, or anything I’d be really curious!

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Starting as a research coordinator or getting involved with an IRB as a reviewer (community, non-scientist, whatever it takes) are good ways to get direct experience. If you’re having trouble with those routes, see if local research hospitals have low-level research assistant or even volunteer positions open. (Or just for a foot in the door, some hospitals like mine even have temp pools for office-type work, which can help at least get experience and get you established at an institution.)

          Check hospitals’ job boards directly, or look on Indeed. And see if you can get a discounted student membership now for an appropriate professional organization, like PRIM&R, ACRP, SOCRA, etc. That will at least give you an idea of the industry and let you get a better feel for how things are done, some pointers, etc.

          Day-to-day is dependent on your exact role, the size of your institution, etc., but I do have a lot of regulations to keep in mind, so the red-tape-juggling isn’t too far off. I frequently find success in just letting the researcher rant and vent, lending a sympathetic ear, and then present it as an “OK, we need to make sure we’re all following fed regs or the FDA will not be impressed” situation. Frequently they’re fine after just blowing off steam, but sometimes need the “if we don’t do the small things right the feds will think we’re hiding something major”/”we’re all in this together” sort of sympathy/rapport-building to come around. And worst case scenario, I know my bosses absolutely back me up.

    10. WomanOfMystery*

      I handled a mortgage company’s interests in homeowner insurance claims—lots of telling people that their insurance money couldn’t be used until they jumped through a lot of hoops. Sometimes I genuinely felt like a bad guy, but mostly . . . it just felt like being part of a bureaucracy. I tried to be a good, efficient cog that moved people through quickly. I did it for 3 years and got out because I moved.

    11. epi*

      I was the contact person for an internal review board for researchers. It wasn’t an IRB, but we controlled a shared resource and so we had to review the safety and appropriateness of any research plans that called for it, as well as just whether we could support the plan and do our other stuff. The reputation of the process was that it was a bottleneck, maybe even a step where a research plan could fall apart if we were unhelpful enough. I inherited the role from someone who was proud that research coordinators in other departments didn’t like us.

      It turned out there was a lot of room to take that job in a direction where people actually felt we did them a service. I fixed our forms, updated them myself if someone submitted a mistake that was easy for me to fix (often they just didn’t understand our work well enough to fill it out right), kept in touch with researchers so we could actually help them set up that part of their study with us when it was time, and did a ton of outreach to help people understand the point of the process. We started issuing fewer rejections, and more requests for revisions or offers to meet to work out an appropriate level of support.

      It will depend on your role, particularly if there are specific interests you must represent or if you have power relative to the people you’re being a “bad guy” to, but offering information alongside your other interactions can make a big difference. I’ve had good responses in other contexts, as well, taking the stance that “I want you to understand what happens next, ask me anything”. Often people need the information– even if they’ve heard it before– and it sends the message that you do care about them and not just about getting something from them, or saying no.

      This was just one part of my job and I left for other reasons, but I found that part of the work fulfilling once I turned it around.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        My board is partially judged on turnaround time – for better or for worse. It’s not always fair but we’ve smoothed out processes and are no longer the sticking point in the workflow. And we have various outreach meetings monthly to try to educate and inform our research community.

    12. Baby Fishmouth*

      In university I used to give parking tickets. The thing I really liked about my job was that the customer was rarely (i.e. never) right, and management knew it, so I didn’t really have to be nice to people who were being rude to me. I was totally allowed to just walk away from anyone who was being horrible. But I knew I wouldn’t be in that job forever, so that helped.

      1. De Minimis*

        I remember at my college they usually liked to hire non-traditional students [older] for the parking enforcement type jobs. The concern was traditional college age students might be more likely to make exceptions for their friends, etc.

        Can’t imagine doing that job anywhere, though.

      2. JokeyJules*

        you have my sympathies! I answered the non-emergency police line at my university – usually kids complaining about parking tickets. They’d call saying it wasnt their fault they parked in front of the fire hydrant and then their parents would call and complain
        the ticketing officers would be absolutely berated but always handled it really well and had the best comebacks.

        1. Judge Fudge*

          I served on my school’s traffic court solely for the reason of being able to overturn my own tickets on the rare occasion I got them (and to do my friends favors of course). I had no quarrel with the traffic enforcement folks as they were always very kind and professional. I did have a problem with the exorbitant dollar figure the tickets were. $75 seemed ludicrous to me especially when my schools parking situation was a complete disaster.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Wow, you are lucky you did not get called on the carpet for that one. phew…..

    13. Free Meerkats*

      I’m an Industrial Waste Inspector (Sewer Cop) and have been for 37 years in 4 different programs in 3 states.

      I can be the bad guy when I have to be. I’ve had to shut down a business in the past, I’ve imposed fines that wiped out any profits a business made that year, I regularly tell businesses they have to spend 7 figures or I’ll plug their sewer.

      That said, if you feel your company is trying to do right, you’re ahead of the curve. One of the programs I worked for relied heavily on the hammer – we were The Enforcer and they Would Respect Our Authority! (insert photo of cop Cartman) Fines imposed for every minor problem, heavy-handed enforcement. The program I’m in now, for 28 years, relies very much on collaboration and building good relationships with the companies we regulate. I’m much happier here.

      If you’re reasonably happy in your job, enjoy it.

    14. Sophie before she was cool*

      I had a summer job in college that was supposed to be mostly filing and general admin duties, but they also asked me to call people who were behind on their mortgages and try to work out a payment plan. The organization worked exclusively with low-income households and seniors. It was 2008. It was not the job for me.

      I did feel strongly that the organization was doing good work, and I might have lasted longer in a different financial climate.

    15. Pinky Pie*

      I had a job where I gave special needs students and their parents the reality check that their school wasn’t giving them about their potential vocational choices. It was tough at times -I had a parent with terminal cancer and a kid who wasn’t going to be able to work independently that still gets to me. I saw my job as being on the side of truth…

      I’m currently giving truth about vocational options. I know I’m not thought of kindly by some.

      1. JokeyJules*

        sometimes parents need honesty with their children. “Success” is very relative. You are doing good, important work for these kids lives!

      2. Caterpie*

        This is SO important. I grew up with a girl who’s parents refused to take her out of mainstream school and to this day (we’re mid 20s now) I can see that she didn’t reach her full potential because of it. She would have been great in a culinary setting (she was passionate about making desserts) and my school had an awesome partnership with a vocational school but they just refused to allow her to go. Since then she’s been taken advantage of by at least one MLM and hasn’t really built any marketable skills. I’ve moved but think of her often.

        She didn’t thrive in a mainstream setting and I think the hours taken away from the rest of the students because of extra attention and time that was spent on her (not her fault, but I can remember several instances where the class had to pause so the teacher could give her 1 on 1 attention -parents didn’t want an aid either) are probably countless. Thank you for your time in this important career!

      3. anon for now*

        Thank you for doing a hard job. As a parent of a preschooler with autism, I don’t know if our future is college or not but I’m being realistic about the situation. I do know other parents that aren’t.

      4. Anonymoss*

        It’s also a shame that vocational schools have such a stigma in this society. My husband is an incredibly bright, creative, and artistic guy with ADD. He admits he was not the academic type and wish his parents had put him in a vocational school where he could have worked with his hands. But they couldn’t get passed the notion it was for the “special” kids.

        Thank you for the important and difficult work you do.

    16. CatCat*

      When I was a litigator, you’re inevitably cast as the “bad guy” to someone else. I was generally fine with being the “bad guy.” There were certainly some unfortunate/sad situations where I would have preferred not to be the bad guy, but it’s just sort of part of the job. You learn to not take these things personally.

    17. Triplestep*

      Until a month ago, I worked in Facilities Planning and I got tired of being the bad guy when it seemed like things were conspiring against me.

      – Everyone’s a designer. You watch HGTV? That’s as good as my two architecture degrees!
      -Everyone’s a construction project manager. HGTV also teaches people what can get done in a weekend.
      -Your leadership decided you were moving to open space – not me. And while they first listened to my advice about how many meeting rooms, collaboration spaces, focus rooms etc you would need, they’ve opted to make those private offices for some lucky few, and now you’ll have nowhere to go to talk to each other or on the phone. But I still have to put a positive spin on this. Open space does not inherently suck – leaders who don’t listen to the experts they hired suck.
      – It’s six months after I moved you into your new space; stop calling me. If there’s a building issue, put in a work order just like you always did before you met me. I’m not your concierge, I have actually started working with another group who will go through all of the steps above, too.

      Its gets tiring having your expertise questioned, your work chipped away at by everyone at all levels, and ending up with an end product they don’t like. (Even the leaders who approved it and now want to point a finger at you.) About 30% of the time I did have people say “This is a lot better than I thought it would be” or “I could never go back to my old workspace” but mostly leadership value-engineers the hell out of it until it’s nothing like what you all agreed to in the initial phases, and guess what, predictably people hate it.

      Now I am working from home strictly on the front end of planning , and the only thing I design and build are spreadsheets and PowerPoints. I actually sought out and pursued this job (or rather jobs just like this one) to reduce stress, work from home, have fewer complaints to deal with, and be able to focus on a more narrow breadth of work. I also want to build skills so that I can be an older gig worker instead of retiring flat out in 10 years when I’m 65. I took a pay cut to do this and have no regrets except for the very long hours, which should subside. I hope to be able to make up some of the income by freelancing in residential design, which I did in a previous life and enjoy.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        My office is moving to a new campus this year. It’s half existing/remodel, half new construction. We are a division of one of the largest contractors in the US. I imagine we were a huge PITA to work with for the architects. Bless you!

        (I personally do a lot of work in front-end engineering development, but it sounds like it’s more collaborative, and while clients may question aspects of our design, there is a mutual respect of knowledge. No one thinks they know where to put a boiler feed pump because they watched Flip or Flop.)

        1. Triplestep*

          The best design and adoption outcomes I’ve had were when I’ve been allowed to hold workshops with the people for whom I’m creating the space. I was afraid to do this at first, thinking they’d ask for unreasonable things and then be pissed off when they did not get them. But it actually had the opposite effect – they felt someone was listening. And of course I learned a lot about the way they do business, which is so important. It was a two-way education process, and those weren’t the times I got the HGTV-worthy suggestions because they had a better idea of the process and all that goes into it.

          Instead when I worked only with the higher ups, those were the times I’d hear later that I don’t consider other peoples ideas. Because execs don’t like to be told that something is not possible due to code or ADA. I learned to say some form of “great idea!” to anything, and then come back later to say “aw shucks, won’t work due to those pesky building codes *pout*”. Otherwise I’d get pinged at review time; I couldn’t react quickly even if I already knew 10 functional and life safety reasons why an exec’s idea would not work.

    18. delta cat*

      Not officially my job, but as the most senior person in the satellite office where I work, it often falls to me to remind people of the rules and report them to their actual supervisors if they aren’t following them. A lot of the staff think the rules are inconvenient and shouldn’t apply to them… and in practice, the supervisors in question never impose any consequences for breaking them.

      We work in health care; the rules are in place for our clients’ privacy and safety.

      This morning I *again* had to remind one of the staff that she can’t send her clients into restricted areas unsupervised. I already know how this will go. I will tell her supervisor, her supervisor (who works offsite) will remind her of the rule, she’ll follow it for a week or two, and then go back to breaking it with no consequences whatsoever. Meanwhile, she’ll know it was me who “tattled” on her, and our professional relationship will deteriorate further. Eventually, there will be a consequence when somebody gets hurt, and it will be ugly.

      I’m so tired.

    19. Bluebell*

      As a fundraiser for decades, I’m used to being seen as a “necessary evil” by program staff, or being told “you’re so genuine and nice, for a fundraiser.” I’m totally used to it by now.

      1. Midwest*

        I work in annual giving at a college and no one really understands what it is. A great majority of the time when I explain to faculty or staff what I do (write mass fundraising letters or run the student phonathon, etc), they complain at me that their alma mater is “always” calling them or how they throw out any mail they get right away because it’s “just asking for money.” I get it. No one likes giving up money to get nothing tangible in return, but we’re asking for money because our students need an affordable education and safe places to live and learn. It’s a real struggle for me sometimes.

        1. all about eevee*

          I am also a Director of Annual Giving. Worse yet, I am Director of Annual Giving at the school I graduated from. Most people under the age of 60 think what I do is obnoxious. But sorry, asking for money for the annual fund is my job, and I am proud of my job. Without me doing my job, way less first generation college students would get an education. So, I don’t really feel bad.

    20. Agent Van Alden*

      I am THE BAD GUY (lady actually) that most everyone fears (IRS agent – audit, not collection). I went to school to get a degree in accounting and I love my job and have no plans to leave. The compliance work that I do is completely necessary and the only thing that keeps many people honest when filing their tax returns. While the results of my work are sometimes financially devastating to the taxpayer, most of the time that is a situation of their own making. My advice to anyone with a small business/self-employed……a good CPA is invaluable. And don’t choose one based solely on a friend’s recommendation (unless you know their tax situation intimately) or what they say they can save you in taxes or how little (or how much) they charge. Like jobs, interview several, really get to know them and then make a decision.

      1. Anon for this*

        My job is the opposite, but even we have to give bad news to folks. Hint, always make sure your direct deposit information is up to date (don’t close your account a week before you file and expect us to know that maybe you should get a paper check instead -yes this happens). And don’t wait more than a year to ask about your refund. We get letters about checks from the 90’s(!). Um, Treasury only keeps those records for six years and there’s other fun stuff.
        Then there’s the people who give all their info to a friend of a friend over the phone and then claim identity theft… Just. No.

      2. Another Auditor*

        State tax auditor here.

        Your work is more than necessary. States appreciate it and value your work.

        To the general public – We should want compliance. If everyone cheats, no one wins.

    21. OfficeGrinch*

      I work in the judicial part of the criminal justice system. Every person I interact with is not there voluntarily. I get a lot of comments about “the broken system”. I started working in a legal setting and made the transition to courts easily. I actually love my work, the department I am in works very hard at addressing how different demographics are influenced by policies. It’s difficult work in many ways and not for everyone but I find it very fulfilling.

    22. Sally O'Malley*

      I’m a teacher, so yeah–to legislators, parents, the public in general–I’m the bad guy.

      1. Triplestep*

        Not to me! I always tried to let my kids’ teachers know how much they were valued. A few in middle and high school showed they did not deserve to be highly regarded, but to me the teacher was always the education expert. Two kids graduated high school and I think I can count on one hand the time I questioned a teacher. (And it was for things like this: Teacher gives kids an extra assignment over a “four-day weekend”, two days of which were Rosh Hashanah which we, in fact, celebrate. I had to e-mail the teacher and say my kid will only have two of four days to devote to this, so please grade accordingly. I got a very defensive response strongly implying that I had called her anti-Semitic. If you don’t do stuff like that, you’re not the bad guy!)

    23. Scourge of the evildoer*

      I work in law enforcement. All the “clientele” hate us and I have no contact with the people who directly benefit from my work. My kind are regularly accused of egregious prejudice and we are all lumped in with that judgement. The taxpayer both resents the money they indirectly pay me and think I don’t do enough/am useless, in a lovely [/s] display of doublethink. In a previous role I regularly gave evidence in court and was cross examined which is basically spending hours faced with someone calling me a liar and implying to a jury that I am incompetent and corrupt (someone who is paid a lot more than me). In my first role, apparently the high tax on tobacco was my fault. In my current role the things I find out will be devastating for the families and friends of the person that did those things, and they’d probably rather not know.

      But (capital)I know what I do (capital) is valuable and important. As I believe the kids say, haters will insist upon hating.

    24. Long Time Fed*

      I used to work in the office that investigated claims of employee misconduct. I truly believe that we provided a necessary service and our investigations were unbiased and fair in every way.

      Unfortunately, it was clear that punishments (determined by HR) weren’t fair. High level people got away with figurative murder while lower level people were punished for the most minor transgressions. It weighed on me and I’m glad I”m not a witness to it anymore.

    25. A person*

      I have had several compliance-focused jobs because I am very organized and good at interpreting rules, and the experience keeps building. I’m used to walking into a room and watching it go quiet and I’m okay with not having a ton of friends at work. Some people find that really hard.

      If I don’t believe in what I am doing or if what I’m doing hurts people more than it helps I move on. There’s nothing I hate more though than doing something without a good reason.

    26. Wrench Turner*

      HVAC contractor here, and yes, frequently.
      Many people don’t understand the nature of my work so suspect me of lying to them when I say their dangerous, broken old equipment is dangerous and broken and it needs to be entirely replaced because “it was working yesterday and I’ve had it for years just fine.” If I don’t warn you and you die, that’s on me. If I warn you and you keep it anyway, that’s on you. I do my job and sleep well at night.

      People hover over my shoulder because they think I’m going to sabotage their equipment or lie about whats broken. I get followed around as I chase wires because they think I’m going steal something. I don’t get paid enough to lie to my customers and get paid enough I don’t need to steal.

      People often think I’m personally pocketing all the money when they get my expensive bill. They don’t realize I get $25/hr, don’t get paid for the drive to/from their place, don’t get any of the dispatch fee, and only get 3% commission on the very infrequent upper end of sales. A lot of stuff like that.

      Also sometimes their “Oh he’s real friendly” dogs attack and bite me. And I love all dogs. :(

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        It is *so* hard when you are part of a very expensive service but you yourself are not well paid!! This is the employer’s fault, not you or the customer. I can’t believe it when I get asked for tips after paying top dollar for a budget-busting service – (example: my cousin’s super expensive private school is always begging for donations / teacher’s gifts .. where the heck did that $40K a year go??) – but I know it’s not the employee’s fault.

    27. JGray*

      I work in HR and part of my job description actually says that I need to help mitigate risk in the HR department. Well the director that created my job retired and the new director doesn’t really understand my job (at least this is how I feel). I work in the public sector and my new boss is from the private sector where compared to public you can basically do what you want. My former director worked in public sector for 40 years and had seen lots of things that can go wrong so she rightly taught me by using those examples. My current director has worked a year in public sector so has seen very minimal employment things that could happen. In the private sector an employer can ignore things if they want which doesn’t happen in the public sector. I feel like when I talk about the bad things that could happen I am just painted as a debbie downer who is resistant to change. I am at the point where I actually want something to happen so that I can actually be like told you so! Anyway, I have decided to try and find another job by in my area the pay and benefits can’t be beat so not sure what I am going to do.

    28. Tax Person*

      I’m currently a CSR for the IRS. We take your money like robbers. We have a lousy phone system that drops calls and slow computers. Before we can help you we have to ask a whole bunch of personal questions to verify your identity so that we are not giving your personal information to someone who shouldn’t have access to it. We’re not allowed to give you legal advice and can only refer you to specific examples of tax law that should be able to to let you figure it out for yourself (although many of those examples are, indeed, badly written and confusing). Often times we’ll have to transfer you to another department.

      OTOH, it is kind of mildly surprising to me that so many people don’t keep better track of their personal information and their finances. Not totally surprising, but still kind of. Anyway, most of us really do the best we can.

    29. Brett*

      I worked (in a non-law enforcement role) for a police department that was involved in a very notorious protest.
      I got into it because I was recruited for specialty tech skills that I have, and it was pretty pleasant, though very low paid and no raises, for the first few years.
      When the protests came, the death threats amped up (including threats against me personally). We had people try to carry out those threats, including attempted bombings.
      It definitely had an effect. I was already wanting out, but I switched from “I want a new opportunity” to “I will take any way out and fix my career later.” Fortunately, I stayed sane in my job hunt, followed the advice here, and found something very good. That said, my old department was trying to do right, and was strongly vindicated by a federal investigation (other departments in the area were slammed by the feds). There was a lot of attrition for a while, but I think that turned around after the DoJ cleared the department and police officers got a significant one time raise.

      I left for a Fortune 500 company that is very polarizing. Some people (especially our customers) love us. Some people (definitely not customers) hate us. The offered work, pay, and benefits were all amazing and the internal culture is probably the best I will ever work for. Accepting the offer was easy (especially given the circumstances I was leaving). I have no intention of getting out. The “bad guy” image is more annoying than anything. Having our customers feel so strongly positive is a big help to ignore the bad public reputation.

    30. Jadelyn*

      HR. How many times have we seen people here insisting that “HR is there to help the company, not you”? But you don’t see all the conversations happening behind closed doors where we may well be (and probably are) fighting like hell on your behalf, only the part where the CEO said “too bad, we’re doing it my way” and then sent us back to deliver the news. And unfortunately the type of work where if things are going right, you don’t notice; but as soon as something is going wrong, we’re in there, and so people associate us with the bad moments (layoffs, disciplinary action, etc.) like that’s all we do.

      I don’t mind it too much, mostly because at my current org HR has enough visibility in non-traumatic moments that our employees do trust us and there isn’t the kind of adversarial relationship that too often is allowed to build. I also have a great team of people I like working with, so there’s support and socialization where I don’t have to be “on duty” the way I have to be, at least nominally, around non-HR staff. I’m not sure how well I’d do at being an HR department of one, like you often see at smaller companies.

      1. JGray*

        I work in HR too and HR is the fall guy for everything. When a manager, CEO, whomever doesn’t want to fess up that they made the decision it becomes well HR said. & then HR has to do paperwork with this person after HR has been blamed for a very bad day in the persons life. It can make it really awkward. I agree with you on everything else you said because it’s so true.

    31. Madame Secretary*

      My husband works in an industry that is considered predatory in nature (but not illegal), even though his particular company is not like that. They don’t market themselves, but their services are sought out. He himself will sit with a client and thoroughly explain what they are getting, what they are paying, making sure they know their obligation. If people are coming to him, it is their worst day, and they are desperate. His clients have long burned through all the more savory options that were available to them before they come to him. He keeps that in mind and is always respectful. His thought is that if he didn’t provide his service, then these people would lose their job, their transportation, their utilities, etc. His conscience is clear.

      1. JokeyJules*

        is he a bail bonds guy? Short-term loan service?

        I’m very curious if you want to share!

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          I thought payday lender. While I agree that the industry is predatory, when I was young and broke, I was very glad they existed and, without them, I would not have been able to pay for a car repair or buy books for school one semester. They definitely have a place in the market, although using them responsibly is key and probably difficult for many of their clientele.

    32. Mimmy*

      I’ve been a volunteer grant proposal reviewer since 2012 on two separate committees. I sometimes have the perception that proposal reviewers are the “bad guy” because funding depends on how well the proposal is written and whether your proposed program meets the funding agency’s criteria. My experience tells me that it does not have to be that way! One of my committees meets with agencies during the review committee meetings so that the representatives can expand on their program(s) and clarify anything that wasn’t clear in the proposal. So, rather than feeling like we’re penalizing an agency for discrepancies or poor program design, we are offering suggestions for making the proposal better next year (both of my committees fund the same programs year after year). Maybe it’s because we are volunteers that it’s less harsh??

    33. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      This is in no way a comparison, but I spent a lot of time as a lifeguard and pool supervisor. I spend a lot of time telling kids they can’t go swimming. It’s often for a sensible reason- they showed up to swim lessons without registering and there’s no room in the class, or they’re too little to swim without a parent in the water, or they’re in their underpants instead of a swimsuit.

      It’s always for their safety, but disappointing excited children is hard.

    34. Anonny For Now*

      I’m compliance in a specific type of finance firm where we’re required to collect and track a lot of personal, financial information on all of our employees. Employees need to tell us their holdings (their own and of their spouses/children/immediate family members in the household), the brokerage accounts, what securities they have, and seek pre-approval (through an online portal) to do any sort of trading (which can be denied, though that’s rare and only for very specific reasons). We also need pre-approval for political donations over a (pretty low) threshold. This is all required by law, and the firm can get in some pretty hot water if we don’t have this information (as can the employee).

      This type of interaction takes up a fairly small amount of my time in total. The vast majority of the people in our office understand that this is a requirement in our industry, yes it sucks and it’s weird, but it’s a requirement for working in this industry. There have been instances where… employee’s haven’t. Then more people get involved and it’s awkward for everyone.

      I accidentally fell into this to be honest. Compliance was just becoming a “big deal” in our industry and they needed more help. I was a temp admin who had good attention to detail and was a quick learner, so I jumped on board. For the most part I like it. It’s way more than seeming nosy to coworkers (I honestly do not care how many accounts you do or do not have, how much money you do or do not invest, or who you donate to, as long as it doesn’t jeopardize the firm).

      1. Queen of Alpha*

        Sounds like ELF :p My biggest complaint is that regulations require spouses to be tracked too.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        You really are my nemesis, hah. (I’m denials-adjacent for the largest hospital in my state.)

      2. Anon for this*

        I also work for a health insurer. I write the denial letters that go to our patient when we won’t cover a bill.

      3. Jenny*

        On the other hand, I just had a baby and got letters about how my insurance totally covered some very expensive surgery bills. I felt good about that.

    36. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m a medical coder. I take your doc’s (usually absolutely terrible) documentation and turn it into your medical bill. In the US. Everybody hates me, because not only is our system and all its … quirks and foibles, let’s say … my fault, but something I’ve discovered over the years: you can make a mistake. Your mom can make a mistake. Your kids, your spouse, your cousin, your friend, everyone you know can make a mistake. Your cable company can make a mistake, your power company can mis-read your meter, EVERYBODY can make mistakes. But if *I* make a mistake, it’s not a mistake. It’s never a mistake. I’m out to deliberately overcharge all our patients so I can scam as much money as possible out of the insurance companies, because all my doctors need Lamborghinis, and I LOVE sending patients to collections who don’t pay their bill, it’s the highlight of my day. :P

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Reality: My docs are so terrible at their documentation that I spend a large portion of my day removing things from patient bills because I can’t find justification for the charges anywhere in their charts. I’m the good guy!

        (PSA: Don’t go to an ED unless you really really legitimately have an emergency though. I can’t do anything about the fact that ED visits are expensive, and please to GOD don’t yell at me about it here, or otherwise start ranting about the US medical system, because I CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU HATE IT AND EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT BETTER.)

    38. JenRN*

      Nurse here. We have the horrible combo of having the vocational/saintly/servile/sexy crap foisted upon us to set people up. This is then followed by the nurse Ratchet style fliparoo when reality strikes and the patient/client/family/supports discover that they actually have to participate in their own/their loved one’s care. That convalescing or recovering actually is uncomfortable and effortful and there is no medical miracle pill but hard work.
      So, time for your walk!

    39. NoNameToday*

      I am in the foreclosure world too and you are right, it’s really tough. When I tell people what I do I look for their reactions to see if they think I’m the bad guy or not.
      When asked about it I tell them I know it’s not glamorous but it’s unfortunately a necessity.
      I love the company I work for and have been here most of my career after college. I’ve often wondered about going into another field but I’m not ready to leave this company just yet.

    40. cookies*

      Oh man. I’ve been exactly where you are. I used to work for an attorney, basically doing all the foreclosure paperwork and taking all the calls and dealing with all the extremely unhappy people. It was pretty rough, especially since it was at the very start of my career and my employer at the time wasn’t fantastic about providing training on how to handle the people calling just to yell at us for *personally* ruining their lives. It’s been years, and I can still recall several calls with perfect clarity – they stick with me. The ones that killed me the most were the calls where, through no fault of their own, the person simply couldn’t pay their mortgage – due to medical issues, mostly. It was heartbreaking to tell people there was nothing I could do that hadn’t already been tried.

      I was eventually able to transition over to more of the title side, and now I only work on post-foreclosure title issues, which has been a great change. I’m still involved in the overall work of foreclosures and property ownership, which I find fascinating, but I don’t have to deal with the soul-crushing weight of active foreclosures.

      There are so many different paths when it comes to real estate/property. I hope that you can find a tangential career, if you eventually need to get out, that you still enjoy and feel is important!

    41. Farm Girl*

      I used to be a meteorologist. Even the good ones (which I wasn’t) take a lot of flack. I used to say it was 1/3 science, 1/3 experience and 1/3 skill. I lasted a year, so didn’t have the last 2/3. It was hard being wrong so often!

    42. Environmental Compliance*

      I used to be the county health department staff member that condemned homes.

      It was pretty rough emotionally on me. After about 1 1/2 years, I got out. I had a really bad case involving 3 sheds, black mold, no plumbing or electric or heat, and nearly 20 children. I couldn’t take the emotional toll any longer.

      I’m still somewhat a ‘bad guy’ in that I do environmental compliance, but I do feel that at my current facility the people I work with (including those out in the facility) still value what I do though I tell them no all the time. I may be the person who doesn’t let them get away with anything, but there’s a mutual respect, and I really do enjoy going out there and just sitting and talking with them.

      FWIW – I never received any training, support, counseling, etc on how to handle the emotional/human side of condemning houses. I may have done a lot better with that type of network of support, but it was apparently ‘not available’ for people in my position. (I asked.)

    43. Anon for this*

      I work for the president. I am a career government employee- he didn’t hire me- but I work directly with him and I haven’t slept well for the last 2.5 years due to the moral struggle. I deal with it by donating time and money to causes I believe in.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Stay strong. If all the fair minded people quit, then all is lost.
        Thank you for what you do.

    44. Green Goose*

      I work in a finance adjacent department that controls grant funding for education for low-income individuals. I have to say no a lot and it can be draining. People will “try to reason” with me, but they don’t realize that it’s not my personal choice, I’m following government regulations. I’ve had people tell me about terrible situations that they are in, which I sympathize with deeply, but I can’t bend the rules.

      I’ve had people get angry with me on the phone before and twice I’ve had people file false complaints against me after I had to deny their request. Both times it was quickly discovered that I had not done anything wrong, but it was super jarring and freaked me out a bit. I took things more personally when I was newer, but it’s easier now.

    45. only acting normal*

      Love the username reference. Haven’t seen anyone else notice it so I will suggest everyone search for Mitchell and Webb baddies. :)

    46. Inventory Menace*

      I used to work in inventory control for a 24/7 manufacturing plant (for context). It was a constantly moving system with material handlers moving material in and out of the plant, staging trucks for shipment, doing all of their paperwork, and having to scan barcodes to transact material to new locations every time anything was moved. As you can imagine in a fast paced environment, that last step was frequently skipped. There were several other transactions in the system that would cause errors that we were responsible for investigating. Nobody was ever happy to see us, because it almost always meant that we were there investigating a problem. And then errors discovered during cycle counts of each location frequently got people written up. You can imagine how well that went over.
      I really loved how detail-oriented the work was and felt a lot of satisfaction in solving the ‘puzzle’, but it was a lot of drama when issues were found. I moved on to a production scheduling position that has a lot of the good aspects without needing to be the “bad guy” anymore (plus better pay and schedule flexibility). Due to my history, I try really hard to triple-check all of my work so I’m not creating more headache for them. Now that I’m out of there, I hear near constant trash-talking about my old department and have to hold my tongue. It really is a necessary ‘evil’, but unless something goes missing, nobody ever acknowledges that.

  3. MechanicalPencil*

    Did anyone see that story about the German worker who was poisoning his coworkers lunches? It made me think of the spicy lunch story, but in actuality.

      1. peachie*

        Wait, twenty one ADDITIONAL coworkers. Sorry for the double response but can you imagine TWENTY TWO of your coworkers dying in fewer than that many years??

      2. T3k*

        What?! The article I read didn’t even mention that, just 3 victims (coma and 2 chronic kidney damage). That makes it so, so much worse knowing this.

          1. MechanicalPencil*

            Uh, I didn’t see that. I only knew about the 1 in a coma and the 2 with severe kidney damage. This is a horse of a totally different color.

            I’ll be keeping my lunch at my own desk now, kthx.

    5. Iris Eyes*

      The murder mystery trained side of me has long acknowledged that this is the way to more effectively commit workplace violence. Why bring a gun when you could just provide free food?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I actually took copious notes on this for a story a while back. I know more about what toxic substances could hide innocuously in foodstuffs than I ever wanted to, and guess what? I don’t want your free workplace cookies anymore, Karen.

    6. Emi.*

      I heard on the radio yesterday about a gardener who’s been leaving IEDs for people who’ve crossed him…. What’s up with Germany right now?

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        Ok, I kept seeing that story, but I never actually read it. I assumed he was planting like nightshade or poison ivy or mountain cedar something. I didn’t know he was planting IEDs. Good heavens.

      2. Mr. Tyzik*

        The weirdest thing about that story is that the gardener is dead. The IEDs are exploding from beyond the grave! Police have no idea how many devices he may have planted and where.

      3. StellaBella*

        In the 90s on ‘Love Lines’ radio show they had a segment called, ‘Florida or Germany?” for nutty things and wow. Just wow.

    8. Decima Dewey*

      Not everyone can have sandwiches. And if this guy has been lurking about, nobody should be eating them.

  4. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

    Anybody have a good response for a well-meaning “Happy International Women’s Day!”? I have not yet received one but I’m bracing myself.

          1. JokeyJules*

            agreed! still works! I want everyone to have a great holiday – whether they celebrate it or not. A happy day is a happy day

            1. Anastasia*

              It’s not a holiday though. Or a happy day. It’s to raise awareness that women are treated poorly throughout the world.

              1. Jemima Bond*

                I take your point, but then, Hallowe’en isn’t a holiday/celebration either, it’s a night to beware of/try to ward off evil spirits the night before All Saints Day, if you believe in that sort of thing, yet “Happy Hallowe’en” seems to be widely accepted.

                Fwiw my only issue with IWD is having to yell “19th of November so hush your row” at men who think they are being clever by asking THAT question. Follow U.K. comedian Richard Herring on Twitter if you’d like to see him respond to ALL those tweets, it’s ace.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  Thank you for that, btw – I literally just had a male coworker ask that (in jest – he literally said “let me preface this so I don’t get beat up in my own office, I know the answer is “the other 364″, but…when’s international men’s day?”) and thanks to you I was able to IMMEDIATELY shoot back “November 19th, actually.”

                  That felt really damn satisfying lmao.

              2. JokeyJules*

                I mean in the sense that I accept all well-meant “happy-whatever-day” wishings. A coworker wished me a happy Hannukah, I’m not jewish, but i appreciate the sentiment. If it is coming from a genuine place of well-wishing, i accept all of it. Happy monday, have national donut day, happy whatever… “Thanks, you too!”

        3. OhGeez*

          Thanks! You too!

          I’m kidding a little bit, but not really. You could also suggest they pay you off with coffee or chocolate (as a joke). Or print out a bunch of articles about trans erasure and hand one out to every dude who says something (not as a joke).

    2. RandomU...*

      Apparently my company has decided to observe this. I’m less than impressed by the idea. Quite frankly it’s insulting and it really pisses me off.

      So, I guess that would be my response if anyone was foolish enough to mention it to me. Although according to several coworkers I lost ‘girl status’ at my company years ago. So I don’t think it will be an issue.

        1. Anonish*

          Because the talents and contributions of women to society are acknowledged on this one day a year which is supposed to make up for being ignored and discriminated against the other 364.

          1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

            I agree with this! I also think that it’s weird to call attention to it in particular – like, sure have the day but don’t wish me a happy one? It’s like if I wished my boss “happy international Male Pattern Baldness day!”

          2. Shiny*

            I think that its historical roots as a socialist holiday have been kind of lost, and it has become like a more generic mothers’ day in the US, but since I work internationally, it’s a good day to focus on gender-related issues. I totally see your point, but I think the holiday originated in a very different context than from how it is “celebrated” in the US, and I have a ton of affection for its history.

          3. Kramerica Industries*

            This. One of my male coworkers emailed a bunch of us today that “it’s so wonderful and inspiring working with a group of strong ladies”. Meanwhile, he’s reputably bad at treating us like assistants rather than equals.

            I feel like this day makes me feel more angry about the inequality because it’s people putting on a fake face for the day.

            1. Midlife Tattoos*

              This. I’ve twice brought up to our executive leadership that there is a dearth of women at the top, and yet today we all received messages from executives talking about Women’s Day and how women are so important to diversity.

              BTW, the first time I brought it up, I earned a wink and a “thank you for your bravery” from the male executive. The second time I was punted to someone else and just got a non-answer. Both times I asked in front of large audiences. On the upside, the first time around I was applauded. :)

          4. Mr. Tyzik*

            I agree with you! We should get more than one day to be recognized for our efforts against the patriarchy. We should be recognized every day.

          5. anon today and tomorrow*

            Honestly, this is how I feel about any day or month recognizing marginalized groups. I always get really annoyed in June when suddenly all these companies want to be LGBT friendly, but ignore us the other 11 months of the year.

            If you want marginalized groups to feel acknowledged, make an effort to do that year round, not on the one day or month dedicated to recognizing them.

          6. Colette*

            I see it differently – I see it as a reminder to stop, take stock, and figure out what steps we need to take.

        2. RandomU...*

          I know this is an unpopular opinion, but it’s mine and I’m not up for a debate on it.

          I think that less time and effort should be spent on ‘celebrating woman’ because to me it intones that there needs to be a reason for women to need special accolades, appreciation, or acknowledgement for doing nothing more than existing or doing their job.

          I’ve worked damn hard in my career to not have the fact that I’m a woman come into play and it’s a real kick in my teeth for suddenly the need by some to accentuate the fact that I am a woman in the workplace.

          In other words, the fact that this celebration or acknowledgement puts a spot light on something I’d rather not have spotlighted at all, because by doing so… someone is saying that, as a woman, I need special treatment, which I don’t.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            That’s not actually an unpopular opinion.

            The (original) spirit of International Women’s Day is not “Oh, women are so SPESHUL! Flowers! Discounts on handbags and salons! Thank you, women, for being wonderful delicate creatures!”

            It’s quite the opposite – it’s a day of rememberance of the feminists who were murdered in a factory fire, for demanding their fair rights. It’s a day meant to fight for equal rights, because you are right, we ARE equal.

            Patriarchy and capitalism have co-opted and misrepresented the date, but don’t let this misguide you. It is absolutely about equality and not being special creatures who need different treatment.

            1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

              I’d bet money that if there were a survey between men and women on what the day means, the majority of women would say “it’s a reminder of how far we have yet to go” while most men would say “it’s a celebration of how far we’ve come”

              2. Cascadian*

                Until we have non-males in 50.9% of leadership (government, education, business) roles, globally, we still have a long long way to go.

              3. anon today and tomorrow*

                Honestly, I think you can apply this logic to any minority and majority group viewing a day/month/event.

      2. General Ginger*

        It’s historically a socialist and protest holiday. The March 8 date specifically is commemorating a protest march by women (textile) workers in Russia, and is in Soviet/Russian history considered part of the February revolution. I find the idea of any capitalist institution celebrating it is pretty disingenuous.

        However, I did also grow up with it essentially being like Soviet Valentine’s but with more ideology attached, so.

      3. Face Palm*

        My company also observes this…by giving all the women in the organization chocolate and a pink rose. Yes, I’m serious. I’m not based in the US, so I can attribute it to different cultural norms and expectations, but to say I was floored last year when I experienced it for the first time is an understatement.

    5. AnonEMoose*

      I’d probably have to not giggle. Because I would be picturing the scene in the movie “Deadpool.”

    6. Beth Jacobs*

      I’m with you on this one! I think International Women’s Day is important, but it’s a political commemoration of not only the history of the struggle for women’s rights, but also that there’s still a long way to go, even in western democracies. But I don’t think a discussion about policies to close the wage gap or protect women from sexual assault really belongs in the workplace.

      1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        Oh yeah, it’s absolutely an important day in the political sense. But it does make me uncomfortable when people “celebrate” it by instead calling attention to the remaining otherness of women in a flippant way. Especially in the workplace where it’s already so loaded (can you tell I work in a male-dominated office?)

        1. Beth Jacobs*

          Exactly! “Happy International Women’s Day!” from a male in the break room has a slightly “Happy National Donut Day” vibe, which doesn’t do it justice. It’s not a day about flowers and discounted eyeliner!

      2. Doc in a Box*

        You don’t think a discussion of the wage gap is appropriate in the workplace? Where is it appropriate? Girls night out over cosmos?

        1. Can I retire yet?*

          my colleague and I put on a lunchtime event for IWD – we had a speaker who talked about representation of disabled women, we had cakes and we asked people to give us their thoughts on some of the issues underlying the gender pay gap in our organisation. This will contribute to our mandatory annual report on the GPG and an action plan. The senior manager who opened the event for us worked here for 25 years and told us when she started women were not allowed to wear trousers to work and there were girlie calendars in offices. So we started with how things have changed and went on to what still needs changing.
          We put notice of the event on our intranet and got a message of support from our Mayor (we are in local government).

          1. Doc in a Box*

            That sounds like a good way to observe the day, especially the action plan. My workplace didn’t really acknowledge it at all, which is at least better than chocolate and flowers (ugh). But we have an unofficial “women in Neurology” (WIN!) dinner next week, and hopefully we’ll talk about these issues then…

    7. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I said “there’s nothing to celebrate” with a monotone voice. And in some cases, with an additional deathstare.
      The bad option would be telling them to Google it, but it had really negative side effects.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Serious question, why would you respond to a co-worker in that way, with a monotone voice and a “deathstare”? Because I could not imagine that doing something like that would promote a collegial environment among people that I have to spend 8+ hours a day with.

        1. Lissa*

          Yeah, I’d think even telling them to Google it would be better than that! Though probably still sort of confusing, considering the many different interpretations of IWD makes it unlikely that the coworker would come to the same exact one that Fake Converse Shoes has even via googling.

        2. LawBee*

          Or that it would have any effect other than coworker thinking “welp okay then” and moving on with their life.

      2. Alianora*

        If I saw you respond to a coworker that way, it would
        a) make me really uncomfortable
        b) lead me to avoid talking to you about anything non work-related in the future (which might be what you’re going for, idk)
        and c) I would be very confused about what your objections to the day were. Are you anti-feminist? Do you not like its socialist roots? Support it but don’t believe celebration is the appropriate response?

        1. Alianora*

          (Not saying those are the only reasons someone might respond with a death stare, but that’s what immediately comes to mind.)

    8. Karen from Finance*

      My company gave me chocolates in a flowery box. I’m conflicted because I hate hate this type of thing for International Women’s Day. It misses the point so completely. But on the other hand…. free chocolate.

      My default response is a curt but polite nod, barely-there smile and quiet “thanks”. If I’m close enough to the person and the setting allows, I’ll expand more to a “I know what you mean and I appreciate that, but to me this day is about commemorating the people we lost in the fight for equal rights, and for remembering how much we still have to go”. If I say it calmly and in a “not offended” tone, I’ve managed to make quite a few people reflect on that. A lot of people don’t know about the origin of the day and most are just trhying to be nice, so I try to be patient.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        I got chocolates too. What’s makes it worse is that we haven’t been paid yet, so you can imagine my face when I found the cutesy bag with a smiley face sticker on it. There’s definitely nothing to celebrate, in any sense.

      2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        I got chocolates too. What’s makes it worse is that we haven’t been paid yet, so you can imagine my face when I found the cutesy bag with a smiley face sticker on it. There’s definitely nothing to celebrate.

      4. LaDeeDa*

        WHAT? They gave all the women chocolates? Uggg, so condescending.

        At my company the Diversity & Inclusion group and our women’s employee resource group co-hosted an event. They had a guest speaker, who is a well known female CEO who has made great strides in the STEM community and her company is well known for their recruitment and support of women in tech. They also highlighted the efforts of our company to support and develop women in STEM and how our company has increased the number of women in the company and in leadership roles over the last few years by putting into place some blind-resume selection techniques and increasing our performance management efforts to eliminate unconscious bias through unconscious bias training for all employees.

        It seemed to be received well and there was good turnout. But my company has been making a big effort and has been vocal about the initiatives for the last few years. It wasn’t a one day “YAY women!” kind of thing. Words are empty without action.

    9. designbot*

      oh gawd. My company’s trying to be all women’s-day-y, but the catch is we just had a glassdoor review that said the company was a bunch of awful sexists (and uh, had a point). So right now, I’m tempted to be like, “yeah, about that…”
      Sorry that’s no help, but my sympathies are with all who feel pandered to on this day.

    10. Bluebell*

      Inside, I’d love to say “yup, smash the patriarchy!” But I can’t envision too many places where that would work, especially as a reply to a man. So I’ll agree with Thanks, you too!

    11. Justin*

      I want to thank all of you for educating me on this. I genuinely thought it was just sort of meant as, like, the peak of Womens’ History Month, and as a black guy who, like many of us, finds Black History Month to have good intent but horrible execution, I thought it was that sort of eyerolly thing. Genuinely didn’t know it commemorated a specific tragedy.

      (Not that I was ever going to walk around wishing someone a happy IWD though…)

    12. ursula*

      The only acceptable way for men to celebrate International Women’s Day in the workplace is by leaking their salary information to all the women in the office at their level.

      (A modern twist, which is growing in acceptance, is to just literally give every woman you see $20. You may bump it up to $30 of $40 for women of colour, trans/NB folks, and any woman who works in a service role.)

    15. Anon for this one*

      This whole discussion is interesting because it just made realize that something quietly subversive is going on today.
      We are having a huge international women’s day celebration today. Four hours long with lots of equity and justice related activities.
      We have not normally had something like this in the past.

      But… we were bought out by a company with virtually no women in the top several tiers of leadership. We went from ~40% women in major leadership roles to <5% overnight. This has been a significant source of friction between the two companies and no clear resolution is in sight.
      Now I think I see why our IWD celebration is so big this year.
      Thank you for the insight.

      1. designbot*

        ^^^These are the conversations that will truly celebrate the day. Don’t post something cute on instagram, talk about the actual effing issues happening in your workplace!

    16. ****

      My response this year had been “The 19th of November”.

      Last year, several men in my workplace who seem to see me as Feminism’s Representative On Earth™ (i.e. a woman they know whose job is to tell them when they’re wrong) repeatedly asked me “yeah, but when’s International Men’s Day? Hurr hurr equality hurr hurr unfair hurr hurr what do you have to say to that?”

      So this year I am prepared to pre-empt it.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        Every damn day is International Men’s day. Ugg “not all men” You have my permission to junk punch them.

    17. DataGirl*

      F off, Pollyanna. Only because people in my office are being disgustingly happy about it, as if this kind of thing makes all the crap going on at our employer all better.

    18. Violet Fox*

      “Thanks for the head-pats for us existing as women. Maybe celebrate by doing something about it, like hiring more women.”

      I didn’t actually say this, but I really wanted to and I think I’m just bitter from working as a sysadmin for too long. My department is okay, but our central IT is 86% male.

    19. Anon-er regular*

      No but I wanted to share: a very senior person in my work started her IWD article wondering if the day was necessary and sharing how she laughed off sexism. She did end with it being necessary but with no acknowledgement of her privilege or that intersectionality exists. I was fuming.

    20. Clawfoot*

      A male co-worker came into our (predominantly female) section of the office and yelled, “Happy International Women’s Day!”

      A female co-worker shouted back, “Thanks! That’s exactly what women want! To be shouted at by a man!”

      We laughed a lot. :)

        1. Clawfoot*

          He graciously laughed with us and acknowledged his mistake. :) He pretty much nodded, laughed at himself, and said, “Good point!”

      1. ello mate*

        I’d just say “Thanks! Anyway about Document X”. Unless you want to get into political conversations about gender at work….Which I wouldn’t and I work for an incredibly progressive company

    22. Caterpie*

      I got a private message on LinkedIn from someone (male) who I’ve never interfaced with other than to accept their request to add me. The person seems to be from outside of the US, is this normal?

      1. Doc in a Box*

        Whenever I’ve gotten random private messages from men I don’t know, it’s an attempt at flirtation. Sometimes they seem innocuous at first, but when you respond, they get weird really fast. I no longer approve LinkedIn requests from people I don’t know, and I always report them to LinkedIn (you are not supposed to add people you haven’t met). But Meetup, LinkedIn, Facebook group activities… a lot of men seem to think any social networking platform is OKCupid in disguise.

    23. Lazy Susan*

      Yes. Ask them
      (1) how they plan on celebrating the day; or
      (2) why do we celebrate “international women’s day?” and when they say they don’t know (or if they give the wrong answer, ie “celebrating women” — say “well I’m sure you are going to look up the real reason, let me know what it is!”

  5. DaniCalifornia*

    A former coworker just sent me this link as she thought of me while reading it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2016/12/20/ten-ways-productive-employees-get-punished/#3c64b5ae47b9

    It makes me furious because it 150% applies my current situation. Seeking to get out of a toxic job that I’ve been stuck in for over a year (been here almost 8) It also oddly made me feel a bit justified to be leaving.

    The urge to print this out and hand it directly to my boss and my supervisor when I leave will be great. Or just leave it laying on my desk. I probably wouldn’t…but the urge is there. Former coworker said I should print it out now and hang it on the fridge.

    1. Ingray*

      Ah, I have a friend in such a similar situation. She is a really hard worker, works 4 days a week and probably does more than 40 hours including doing some work from home, but every once in awhile her boss starts making noise about how they might need her to work Fridays. I think they start dreaming about how much more they imagine she could get done if she was in the office another day, without realizing that the main reason she can work so hard Mon-Thurs is that she knows she’s got Friday off.

    2. CatCat*

      Oooh, 2-5 really resonate with me at an ExJob. I burned out HARD. Boss eventually half-heartedly tried to salvage the situation, but it wasn’t until I put in my notice that now panicked boss started talking about actually doing fixes… but it was too late. Next boss was very attentive to asking about and listening to employees’ work capacity rather than just assigning stuff to the most productive people. I was so much happier.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      Yeah…. Jake is just going to have to suck it up and work on Fridays, obviously. I don’t know how you’d fix that situation with a supervisor.

      I’ve kind of given up on this issue for myself. It is what it is.

      1. elemenohp*

        But Jake is getting *paid* only to work 4 days. Unless his boss is going to start paying him for 5 days, I don’t think that’s a reasonable request for the boss to be making.

        1. fposte*

          That’s not how exempt employment works, though. You’re not getting paid to work 4 days or 5 days or x number of hours. You’re paid to do the job you’re asked to do. Jake was able to negotiate a schedule that worked for him at the same salary; he wasn’t paid as part-time.

          1. Autumnheart*

            It said in the article that Jake’s salary was adjusted to reflect the 4-day schedule.

            1. fposte*

              Ah, I missed the 4/5ths of a salary thing. In that case, then that’s an open discussion to be had, because it’s certainly not reasonable for Jake to work the same schedule as everybody else for less money. However, he may not be able to keep his Fridays, either.

          2. MissDisplaced*

            No, you’re getting paid to work a pretty standard 40 hour work week.
            You just don’t get paid overtime to work more than 40 hours, but a 40 hour week is standard in the US.

            1. fposte*

              Setting aside where I missed the Jake thing specifically–no, you’re not paid to work a 40 hour week if you’re exempt; you’re paid to work the time the job expects you. Lots of exempt jobs do have a 40-hour a week expectation, which is fine, and the average exempt worker reportedly works about 44 hours per week, but this will vary wildly from field to field. But there is no tying of pay to 40 hours for exempt status unless it comes from your field or specific job.

      2. DaniCalifornia*

        For me it’s not even about the Fridays. I work Fridays. And Saturdays. And Sundays. Yet they keep expecting more and more and more. I’m so done because all of those points in the article above.

    4. Bitter old owl*

      I literally just wrote a rant about something like this happening to me (albeit I do customer service). But when I’m repeatedly told I’m a top performer but then they screw me over with my schedule so badly, it doesn’t make me feel appreciated and instead want to jump ship.

    5. Lena Clare*

      I had to stop reading about the other ways that good employees are ‘punished’. It’s too accurate for my situation you made me feel really depressed.

    6. knitter*

      My counterpart at work is incompetent and has tried to manipulate my boss into transferring her work responsibilities onto me. She also tries to rope me into things by saying “we should think about…” meaning I should think about it and figure it out myself.

      I have been very upfront with my boss and my boss’ boss that I would not do her job. Luckily, they understand that solving a problem in the short term by giving me the work won’t solve the problem long term and will significantly impact my morale.

      Good luck finding a reasonable and reflective manager.

    7. Kitty*

      +1000. Did a full time role for 11 years in a 4 day/schedule at 80% pay because I was desperate for more time home with my kids. Don’t regret it but missed out on raises and promotions. Last new manager (after full time for 5+ years), declares that way the situation had shaken out was “crap” and squared up the financial situation. Part that stunned me was that he was a 65+ year old male that owed me nothing. Made me ashamed that I had lumped everyone in that demographic together.

    8. AnonEMoose*

      This resonates with me. I like my job, and my boss, but one thing I don’t like is that I feel like the team I’m on is being treated like the back-up plan for another department that’s consistently behind. The other department does a lot of processing-type stuff. Which is important and needs to be done.

      But…it’s work I find highly repetitive and not engaging or challenging. It’s work I worked hard to get away from, and I kind of don’t like being dragged back into it, even temporarily.

    10. Utoh!*

      That list has put into words exactly how I am treated because I am a high-performing self-starter working on a team of those who aren’t at my level. So the expectations and assumptions that I will not only hold up my end, but everyone else’s is a constant. It’s exhausting. I’m starting to push back by putting blinders on to what everyone else is *not* doing, no more follow up with them, no more taking it on myself. It REALLY grinds my gears when I’m lumped in with the rest to make sure I am putting the customer first and my projects second…I’m the *ONLY* one who does that…! Only a few more years before I can leave this place permanently…. I’ll have to save that make sure to leave it in a very special place (manager’s inbox!)

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I feel you. 100%. Lumped in with the bad when something goes wrong and asked to fix it, or attempt to fix it BY MYSELF most times. Yet when stuff goes right no acknowledgement. And I’m constantly asked to fix my coworkers mistakes. My team is not on my level, not even close. So every senior person reaches out to me to fix things, contact clients, work on special projects. Including stuff my coworkers should know how to do. And yet I’m getting emails from my supervisor about how behind “WE” are. Nope, I’m not behind.

        I had to do what you did. Finally stop worrying/caring and stop being proactive about putting blinders on. And pushing back.

        1. Mr. Tyzik*

          I worked with a woman in your shoes – she was responsible for a process that usually ran smoothly, but every once in a while, another team would skip the process and cause an issue, provide bad input, or other issue. She was always dinged for the mistakes outside her control but never praised for the times when the process ran without error. And every team that broke the system got off scot-free; she was continually asked to tweak the process to prevent the unavoidable error and got dinged for that too.

          She eventually retired. If I were her, I’d have left with middle fingers raised.

    11. xarcady*

      This was me at my last job. I enjoyed getting some of the tough projects–it was a challenge to figure out how to handle things. But that didn’t mean I wanted only the really hard jobs–it would have been nice to get a few of the simpler jobs so I could get a break sometimes.

      And I ended up training not just new people in my department, but doing some of the basic training (phones, network, various in-house procedures) for the entire company. While the tight deadlines on those tough projects did not change.

      My breaking point came when I was given a large, difficult project with a deadline that was physically impossible. Based on our usual timelines, I needed three weeks to finish it. I was given one week. When I asked for additional resources, I was given one person for two hours. Not two hours a day. Two hours. By not sleeping for a couple of days and working 12 hour days for two weekends, I did it. I have no idea what the quality was like. And I irritated my boss by refusing to train two new employees that week.

      And then I started looking for a new job. And when I gave notice, my boss was completely shocked. But I knew, based on past experience, that having done that huge job in a third of the usual time, they would now expect me to be able to pull off that kind of thing on a regular basis. And I did not want to do that.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I so feel you on that last. It’s like they see “Oh, this got done in a week, so all of these projects can be done in that time frame. Because Lean. Because Efficient.” Never mind that doing that means you have no life and collapse from the stress/pressure. People just can not sustain that kind of effort long term, because we’re people.

        1. SarahKay*

          This is so true! I can run about 200 metres, going flat out. Or I can walk 10 miles, comfortably at a steady pace. I can not, however, run 10 miles. No way, nohow, contrariwise.

    12. JGray*

      I did so good at my job that I actually got promoted within my department. Now with my new director I am getting punished for being so good. I am basically expected to back up everyone even if my job is a higher level than their job. I also think that my knowledge isn’t be recognized at all. I know so much but yet am made to feel like the bad guy if I say something. All I am trying to do is prevent a lawsuit.

      1. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

        I hear you, JGray. You do your job, and do it well, and know the intricacies of it that they don’t hesitate to rely on you for it all…and yet when you say “Nope, you really can’t do that because X”, they want to buck the system and act like you’re pissing on their parade. But of COURSE, if they do it their way and don’t listen, then it’s right back in your face as a problem you should’ve known about/caught/prevented.

        Or at least, that’s what I got from your comment. And I feel you. Any and all that you choose: fist bump/hug/prayers/happy thoughts/good vibes to you. We keep the ship from sinking, which they pay us to do…but then don’t want to listen when we’re trying to do exactly that. People do stupid things.

    13. spaghetti and meatballs*

      9. Productive employees may be blocked in their efforts to get promoted in the company because their boss knows how difficult it would be to replace them.

      10. Finally, very productive people get punished by their managers for taking normal vacation time or any time off when things get busy.

      *cries*

      Excellent article, thanks for linking, I’m keeping this in my back pocket.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I cried at #6 especially, since that’s the reason my former coworker sent it to me. Everyone complains that our processes have mistakes and are slow or old. I constantly try to bring them up to speed/make them more efficient/less error prone.

        Yeah no. They don’t want to learn a new (better) way that is harder to make errors. *Sigh*

      2. Nessun*

        I *almost* found myself in #9 – didn’t even know about it until after I was promoted! A new colleague said to me, “we wanted you in this role from the beginning, but your boss was really possessive – you do really good work and he didn’t want to lose you!” Luckily for me and her, he thought it over after the initial few asks, and came back to her and said Yes. He realized I could do well in the new role, and he knew I’d appreciate the opportunity. And of course I value him more as a contact/boss now, because I know he’s not a totally self-absorbed jerk. If I’d heard that info and hadn’t been promoted…I’d be FURIOUS.

    14. Jadelyn*

      Holy shit, a Liz Ryan article that didn’t immediately put me in “flames…flames on the side of my face” mode!!! I wasn’t aware such a thing existed! I actually didn’t even realize that was hers until I got to her bio at the bottom of the page. It sounded so…sane! And normal! Non-gimmicky!

      I guess the broken clock has reached that special time of the day again.

      (for anyone who’s wondering why I’m being Like That about her, go find some of her articles about job search advice. They’re awful.)

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I didn’t realize it was her either. I stopped reading her “advice” a long time ago. She has no idea.

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        I was trying to appreciate the ideas despite the terrible writing … waaay too many exclamation points, and what was up with item #7, it was out of synch with the rest. The voice also felt too personally victimized somehow. It really reminded me how much I appreciate Alison’s calm, balanced, matter of fact tone!!

    15. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Print it out and leave it in the copier tray. If you don’t want them to trace the job to your workstation bring it in from home and swap it with something you’ve sent to print.

    16. StillWorkingOnACleverName*

      I had a boss who once told me that if you want something done, ask a busy person to do it. At the time, that made sense to me. However, once I became the “busy” person who was running the school yearbook, newspaper, coaching basketball, and teaching after school classes I realized I needed to learn to say no.

      I had to understand that it was okay to value my time off and allow someone else to step up and do stuff for once. I still take on more than I need to, but I’m finally finding a work/life balance, and I’m much happier for it.

      1. spaghetti and meatballs*

        I heard “ask a busy person to do it” and also read it in highly regarded books. It seemed to present itself as words of wisdom. My own personal take is: if you give it to a busy person, the busy person will not do it, she will put it to the side. Because she is busy with other things.

        If you want something done, give it to someone who has time to do it.

        1. min*

          I used to think that way too until, like CleverName above, I became the busy person at my workplace.

          Busy people are busy because they’re the ones getting shit done. That’s what the axiom is referring to.

    17. anony-Nora*

      ugh, seriously. My coworkers come and go whatever times they please, more than half can ‘work from home’ (which seems to mean going shopping, taking their kids to amusement parks, not answering work emails until late afternoon) but since I’m a hard worker I have to do a full eight hours in the office, I get all the crap projects dumped on me when I’m already swamped, and if my boss ever happens by my desk when I’m standing to stretch for a bit she comments on my not working.

      Our building has a mold problem that’s been making me sick for a long time. On rainy or humid days I have to wear a respirator mask at my desk to try to avoid the headaches/fatigue/brain fog that make me unable to focus on my work, so I would LOVE the sort of shorter hours, work from home arrangement half the office has, but nope. Somebody’s got to be the workhorse.

      Best of luck getting out of there, and into somewhere that treats you better!

      1. Dwight*

        Yikes, health and safety? Get that reported to the authorities. And it sounds like your coworkers are abusing it, but working from home should be a good thing. My next job I’m going to try negotiating to work-from-home once a week.

    18. Hamburke*

      I’m so lucky to be in the job I’m in right now! I’m a productive worker. I work 3 days/week and like my schedule to be able to do things that aren’t work (like grocery shop and clean bathrooms). My boss knows this and when we picked up additional clients, she hired another person to come in 2 days/week rather than adding hours to me (we don’t meet any of the requirements to provide benefits).

      I’ve been on other sides of this as well – I’ve been so productive that things keep getting added to my plate until I burned out and I’ve been in places where there wasn’t enough work for me because I was so productive. I only stayed at each of these places for a year bc there was nowhere to grow into.

    19. JediSquirrel*

      Wow! This describes my job to a tee, and also perfectly explains why my goal is to be out of here by the end of June. This is exactly it.

    20. Alice*

      Yeah… I had to stop being so efficient because otherwise my boss would just keep piling things on my plate. I’d tell her “I’m almost done with Task A” and she’d ask me to do Report B instead which was due today, so I’d get to work on that, then a few hours later she’d be like “I really need you to fix File C now” so I’d switch to that, only for her to call me after a few hours demanding why I hadn’t finished Task A yet. Madness. Now whenever she asks for updates I tell her “I’m still working on Task A, it’s proving more difficult than expected, I still need half a day or so.” Overestimate how long everything will take me to finish. Otherwise it’s just impossible to get anything done and keep my sanity.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        The slow walk is real. I have zero incentive to work faster / harder since all it will get me is more work and the theoretical longer term benefits for my career haven’t materialized in the past.

    21. TootsNYC*

      wow!

      I had a friend who worked damned hard to meet her own deadlines. She took work home with her, stayed up late, etc. And turned her stuff in on time.

      Then someone in her group got sick, and it turned out they were behind on all five of their projects for that month. So the boss surveyed everyone to see where they were–all of them behind too. Everyone got one project to take over, except my friend–who got two, since she was already done w/ her projects for that month (though, she was starting next month’s).

      She powered through, stayed up late, etc.–and then handed her two projects in. “Oh, since you’re done with those, other people are still behind, so you can do a couple more.”

      She told her boss, “I feel like I’m being punished for doing my work well and being on time,” and her boss got mad at her.

    22. 653-CXK*

      Each and every one of those points described ExJob to a T…and it almost always happens with bad managers who have “pet” employees they want to protect.

      If you do far better than the “pets,” you’re immediately seen as a threat to the status quo and these bad managers are forced to do two things – overload you with work so you don’t disturb their malignant ecosystem, or try to slur you so they can kick you out or make you quit. In the end, a new management system comes in, sees the rank incompetence of the manager and their “pets,” and by then the good employees have moved on to better, more respected places…meanwhile, the malignant ecosystem decays to such a point that the only thing to do is to fire everyone and start fresh.

      Good managers never punish good workers – good workers are gold and no one is a pet.

    23. Anoncorporate*

      I was nodding to all of these. I work in a job where there is no real differentiation between lower and higher titles. As I became more experienced in my job, I kept getting work from the more difficult clients. I honestly didn’t mind the work, but what really got on my nerves was the total lack of recognition. I’m not saying people have to be constantly singing my praises, but I’m talking about compensation and growth opportunities. I got no raise in my performance review (though eventually negotiated one 6 months later), and I didn’t get any projects in other areas (that I asked for) because they wanted me to continue doing the same thing rather than learn new things.

      I’m currently job hunting.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Yeah – *solidarity fist bump*

        Same exact boat here – oh, you have something that needs to get shoveled through a super heavy governance process, in a third of the usual time, with multiple fail points, managing a huge team, and heavy politics? Sprechen will do it! In fact, lets give her TWO at the same time – she’s got plenty of time, right? (thankfully a switched on director saved me from that disaster)

        Meanwhile the bulk of my team is sitting around faffing around with “thoughts” or “thinking about” “things”. They get tapped for promotions and management awards for delivering some thought piece after six months and yet I moved heaven and earth to land a major paper or win money and I get a “well, a promotion would be a stretch” or no one thanks me and then others appropriate my success for their own. I don’t get to do projects where I learn stuff either.

        So over this and its happened at every job Ive ever had. Starting to wonder why Im wasting my precious energy making other people money.

    24. only acting normal*

      Been there. Not any more. After burning out big time I just scaled everything back to the level of appreciation I was being given. I got promoted within the year after being blocked for the previous 3 years… just sayin’.

  6. Pink Post-its*

    I went to law school with the plan that I never wanted to step foot in a courtroom. I had no desire to litigate. My hope/plan was to do some kind of transactional practice and eventually go in-house with a corporation. My home town is a fairly large city with tons of headquarters here and I thought I’d eventually have an opportunity with one of them.

    I graduated law school in 2007 when there was a huge legal market crash (to go along with the economic downturn and mortgage crisis). Most of the transactional jobs in my city dried up and so I took the only job that was offered to me — a litigation job (honestly, I was lucky to have a job at all). And not just litigation, but litigation in a very specialized area of the law that a typical business does not deal with.

    By the time the local legal market recovered and the types of work I wanted became more available, I was entrenched in my job and making enough money that transitioning to a different type of law practice, and likely starting from scratch seniority and salary wise, just didn’t make sense.

    Now I’ve been in my role for over 11 years. I still get anxiety attacks whenever I have to go to court. Additionally, my area of practice is not particularly complex, and I am bored to tears. I just don’t want to do this anymore. I guess I’m having a bit of a mid-career crisis. I still think I want to be an in-house attorney.

    However, when I look at in-house job descriptions, I don’t know that I really qualify for any of them. Companies want attorneys to have real estate experience, or employment law experience, or securities experience, etc. I just don’t have that. I can draft legal papers and briefs, work solo or part as a team, research, negotiate, counsel, outline risks on an issue, etc., but the only actual law I know is the one I practice in.

    Would companies even consider an attorney like me that can do the broad things they want (write contacts, manage outside counsel, give advice to employees) but would need to learn the applicable law on the job? If not, would they consider an attorney who has no hands on experience, but attended continuing legal education courses on the law that relevant?

    At this point, I just don’t know what to do but I really don’t want to do what I’m doing forever. There’s really no more room for growth in my particular firm or subject area. I’m stagnating. I feel like I’m stuck but I don’t know how to get unstuck.

    Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t know anything about the legal field, so I can’t offer any advice there.

      But as someone who took a career… lane switch? Not a change, but a shift… what it made it possible for me was taking a (substantial) pay and title cut.

      It makes sense. I was treated and paid as an expert, which I was. When I shifted to my new role, I was no longer an expert. I had some learning to do.

      So: Is it possible for you to take a cut?

      2. Hooray College Football*

        I switched directions in my legal career, but I had taken a job in legal research sales/marketing out of law school. 9 years later, bored out of my skull, I jumped into practicing law for the first time. Fortunately, I have a science background, so I took/passed the patent bar on my own, then hit the market (1999-2000) when the IP market was up. So I was 38 and starting over. I did take a substantial pay cut and a loss of vacation time, but it has been worth it.

        1. Pink Post-its*

          Jealous of your science background! I’d love to do IP but by the time I realized that, I was almost done with college and it was too late to change from my humanities major.

          In my heart of hearts I’m hoping someone will give me a chance to work, even just a little, with trademarks and copyright issues.

          1. Hooray College Football*

            If you are in the DC area, you can check jobs at the USPTO. They are advertising for a senior TM attorney right now but it is in quality control. You could start in the examining corps and work your way up. Once you have enough seniority, they allow work from home. Just check USA jobs (although again, you’ll take a pay cut at least initially, but the quality of life increases greatly.) One thing to consider – I work for the Navy (civilians – check Navy OGC). If you find a job in one of the litigation shops (mostly gov’t contracts, some federal court, GAO appeals, ASBCA), you can later move to other organizations within the Navy doing non-litigation work. You’ll gain Gov’t contracts experience doing the litigation, which you can transfer to other commands doing advice/counseling. DON OGC jobs are posted on that site, USPTO jobs are on USAjobs.

    2. MsM*

      Are there organizations you can get involved with that might give you a chance to do some pro bono work and gain some experience in different areas that way?

      1. Pink Post-its*

        I’ll have to do more research on this. Most of the pro bono stuff I know about is still litigation work that would not really open corporate opportunities.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          You might get some real estate experience with pro-bono foreclosure defense. A legal aid society near you may have a list of lawyers that they give people, that you could get on.

        2. INeedANap*

          I use to work as general admin staff in a law school – the law school ran a ton of clinics on things like estate planning, real estate, employment law, etc and was ALWAYS looking for lawyers that could help out/be a part of a clinic. There were way more students who were interested – and a huge number of local people in the community who needed the help – than there were lawyers to supervise them. Just a thought!

        3. NotAnotherManager!*

          I have someone on staff whose pro bono contributions are largely nonprofit formation, incorporation, and maintenance. Another handled lease negotiations and transfer of a property unexpectedly donated in someone’s will. I don’t know if that helps or if you’re allowed to bring your own pro bono opportunities to your current job, but I work with a number of people who do transaction work on a pro bono basis. Is there a nonprofit that could use your help?

    3. Lazy Susan*

      My company (large) has a few lawyers on staff whose entire jobs are to review contracts. Big companies usually have large departments for procurement, contracting, and lawyers to work with both groups.

      1. Pink Post-its*

        I’ve seen opportunities like that pop up here and the job postings usually say stuff like “Experience in advising Corporations/supply chain/negotiating commercial contracts required.”
        I don’t know if they would consider someone like me.

        1. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

          Pink Post-its, I don’t know where you are, of course, but I work in the Virginia, and most all of our state jobs here will list a set of skills/education as requirements, but they almost always include language similar to “or equivalent experience”. I’ve worked in state jobs for most of my career (12 years now), and I see people get hired all the time who don’t have exactly what the posting says, but they have the ability to do the job. This seems to generally be determined by the combination of education and experience that a candidate has, and determining whether s/he is able to learn the job at hand.

          Also, while you may not wish to do so, you could also look for other jobs that pertain to your area of interest in some way. I don’t know law at all, but I’m a procurement officer. As Lazy Susan says, we often need advice on various commodities and the appropriate terms and conditions applied thereto. So maybe (if you haven’t already), you could try expanding your search from a “lawyer” job to one that you could use your skills and knowledge at, and of course, ideally without a pay cut :)

      2. Ama*

        Not only for profit, this is in great demand at both academic institutions and nonprofits — reviewing and/or negotiating contracts for partnerships with industry or research grants. They probably don’t pay as well, but because of that they tend to be more willing to work with someone who has general contract law experience but needs to learn the specific nuances of contracts for research institutions on the job.

    4. Lurker*

      Don’t lose hope!! I was a litigator for over ten years in an insanely nitch field (child abuse neglect/family law) and I moved to a risk and compliance role in a huge international company. And I’m ridiculously happy with my midcareer about face, even though I loved litigating. Lean into your network outside of work (my recommendation came from a friend that I made via a mutual hobby outside of work) and don’t give up!

      1. Pink Post-its*

        Thank you, it’s good to know it can be done!

        Now I just need to develop network outside of my practice…… :)

        1. Auntie Social*

          Have you thought about attending continuing ed classes about human resources, so your CV can state what classes you’ve taken and you’re working towards certification in X?? I know larger HR departments are always happy to have a lawyer on board.

          1. Pink Post-its*

            It is one of the things I’ve thought about. I need to look more into what certifications I could pursue.

    5. No Longer Elle*

      Hi! I did this! I graduated law school in 2014 and vowed never to enter a courtroom. Of course I ended up taking a family law gig and was in court at least 3 days a week for 3 years. I was miserable dealing with other people’s drama all day and applied for anything and everything to get out of there. It was tough to convince people in other fields that I didn’t want to be a “real lawyer” and had transferable skills. My title now is a version of Contract Manager and I negotiate commercial contracts for a huge company. My original boss hired me because I focused on my negotiating skills and made it clear I was looking for a change. He had also been through a nasty divorce and could understand why I wanted out.

      I second everyone’s advice to look at jobs relating to contracts, procurement and compliance – not just in house counsel. Good luck!

      1. Pink Post-its*

        Thank you! I am looking into trying to improve some areas I may need to hone. I’m looking into some CLEs on negotiation (I have a lot of experience negotiating settlements but it can’t hurt to continue to learn to improve these skills, right?), commercial leases, compliance issues, etc. I just wasn’t sure if prospective employers would be impressed that “I took a class.”

        1. No Longer Elle*

          CLEs are a good way to start, but honestly, you are probably not giving yourself enough credit for what you already do now. I went from family law to telecom, not knowing anything about the industry or types of agreements I would be working. I know the all the other top contenders for my job were telecom experts but didn’t have the experience issue spotting and document drafting that I did. They decided it would be easier to teach the industry norms than the negotiating skill. Don’t be afraid to start applying now.

          2. Considered Secularist*

            I would strongly echo what No Longer Elle says about valuing your negotiation and drafting skills. I am a very long-time in-house lawyer. I would far rather hire a candidate with those strong skills who needed to learn my industry — I can teach that easily — negotiation, drafting and people skills are far harder to teach. And your cover letter can make that case for you.

        2. Dagny*

          I think you’re better off just applying to a lot of places, while showcasing your drafting and negotiation skills, than you are taking CLEs to try to impress employers (who won’t care).

          You do not need “employers,” generally, to think that you are making a good choice, or that you would be good in a different role; you need exactly one to think that way and to extend you an offer.

    6. CatCat*

      I have made several shifts in my legal career including going from litigation to house counsel You can definitely do it!

      Can you start taking litigation cases that are sort of adjacent to the types of transactional work you’d be interested in? I think that would make it smoother.

      Do you have legal aid in your area that has volunteer attorneys do certain types of pro bono work in the areas where you are interested?

      1. Pink Post-its*

        Thank you! The firm I’m with is niche so there’s not really any way to take on other work here but I’ll look into the local legal aid.

    7. Adele*

      If you are near a university or large hospital/medical center, look to see what they may have. We have legal departments, sure, but we also have people with law degrees in purchasing contracts and procurement, in grants oversight, even in athletics to make sure we comply with conference rules (or to see how far we can bend them, per my cousin who does this work).

    8. LadyByTheLake*

      A common in-house position is litigation management. So you wouldn’t go to court, but you would manage outside counsel who do.

    9. Coverage Associate*

      Lots of corporations and every insurance company has in house counsel who manages outside litigation. Your skills will transfer but you yourself won’t have to deal with opposing counsel and judges.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you need to have more faith in yourself. It’s good that you’re cautious and know it’s an uphill battle, in terms of experience they’re looking for but you don’t necessarily have this time. But don’t let that stop you from trying your hardest to get them to give you a chance. Worse case, you hear no a lot but it only takes one yes to get your foot in that door and fly in.

      Stay focused on your goal and fight for it. Don’t do anything outrageous [like quit your job and say that you’ll never work again until you get ‘that job’ or something like that!] but go hard, apply and throw your hat in the ring where you see yourself. Use your cover letters to tell them why you’re going to be able to overcome the learning curve.

      You’re never ever stuck anywhere until you’re dead and stuck in the ground. Xoxo

    11. The Rain In Spain*

      Like you I have no desire to ever litigate! My experience post law school was clerking for a county attorney (not barred at the time), and then I moved to another state. I took a lower-level role in HR (but handling employment law matters) and sat for the bar. After I passed, I started my search! I specifically enjoy contracts and after a VERY LONG, very specific search, was able to find (and land) a role handling contracts in an industry that’s much better suited for me.

      You have years of valuable experience. The thing is, you’re capable of picking up other areas of law. I do think companies would consider you- my recommendation would be to look for smaller companies to start with. Some of them use outside counsel extensively even if they have in-house counsel, so that’s something to keep in mind. Also, consider if you’re willing to be flexible on the in-house title. My current role does NOT give me a general counsel title, but I was specifically hired because of my degree/barred status and it’s helpful in negotiations. I feel I am paid appropriately given my education and experience, so I was willing to be flexible on the title. But consider what industries you’re willing to work in- I found one that was a good fit for my background and interests and that’s made a huge difference.

      I would suggest you take some relevant CLEs just to feel more prepared. Also can you join a business law section of the bar and start networking that way? I second the idea to start doing some relevant pro bono work (or even any if you have the capacity- as someone who’s not great at networking for its own sake it was a nice way to meet some fellow-minded attorneys).

    12. Lily Rowan*

      Other people had more specific advice about the law, but one way to see if companies would consider an attorney like you is just to apply for stuff! Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but they definitely won’t if you aren’t in front of them.

      Good luck.

    13. LaDeeDa*

      I am good friends with the senior counsel at my company. I have sent her your question. I believe she is off today, but as soon as I hear back from her I will post a response, so check back over the weekend and Monday!

    14. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Now that you’re about a dozen years into your law career, you’re at an excellent place to switch your focus. You’re under-selling yourself, seriously. Everyone I know who has gone into in-house counsel, started out in some area of practice that was different in one way or another from their current in-house gig. “I’ve spent a dozen years litigating” says to a prospective employer that you will very zealously defend their interests if they take you on.

      Do some self-directed CLE for a refresher on contract basics, make sure that your jurisdiction doesn’t have some oddball rule here and there (I’m looking at you, Pennsylvania’s “and agreeing to be legally bound thereby”), brush up your resume, and apply away. You’ve got this.

    15. ArtK*

      You have a lot of sympathy from me. I’m in the process of trying to switch career focus in a similar way. It’s been a long and frustrating process and I’m only now seeing some results. See my comment below and the previous one last week. I work in an industry (software) where everyone is a specialist so if you lack experience in another area, it’s hard to overcome that.

      One of the things that seems to be helping me is showing a strong interest in the new field. I’ve taken courses and even put some personal projects on my resume that were directly related. As in building a specialized computer of the type that this new field uses.

      Can you do some CLE in the area you want to change to? How about taking on some pro bono work?

      I recently had a conversation with one of my mentors about my struggle — he’s one who helped me with my “2nd chance” letter — and he pointed out some areas where I had transferable experience. I had listed some general stuff, but this was specific to the job listing. Look for those kinds of things. See if you can find a mentor in the field who could point you in the right direction.

      BTW, I’m late career so I’m also dealing with age discrimination issues. I’m aware that I’m going to have to take a cut in pay/title/seniority to do this, but I believe that the rewards will be there. Plus, I can build up a good reputation fairly quickly — I’ve done it before, I can do it again.

      Above all, good luck!

    16. swingbattabatta*

      I’m not sure if this is an option, but could you look at switching to a larger firm that has a litigation and a transactional practice? Once there, you could start picking up more transactional work (and slowing down on the litigation side), and maybe spend a couple of years familiarizing yourself with that type of work before aggressively looking for an in-house role.

    17. AnonymEsq.*

      I would connect with a recruiter. Some larger in-house legal depts do look for litigators to handle matters and manage litigation. You might also try to reach out to your network – former colleagues, fellow alums from your law school, even former opposing counsel – who have moved in-house to hear about how they got into that role and what that role looks like.

    18. user679*

      I don’t know about law, but I’ve switched careers and the way to go is

      – to network and use contacts to get a new job; you want to talk with decision-makers and explain your situation, not with HR
      – to search for jobs related to both what you are doing now and what you want to do in the future – be creative
      – to learn in your free time and possibly invest in courses/ trainings/ degrees related to your new career.

      You shouldn’t need to start from scratch. For people like you special solutions are designed. You can start as a junior but with a promise you will move up quickly after you picked up a new job for example.

    19. JR*

      Do you think you would have an easier time switching from your specialized area of litigation to general civil litigation, and then from there to something in-house?

    20. Weak Trees*

      This is both very late and extremely specific, but google “ISDA”. I fell into a job in the financial industry straight after law school doing nothing but negotiating derivatives contracts. It’s such a small and specific field that firms basically expect to hire people with negotiation skills, but absolutely zero knowledge of the industry, and the general expectation is that you will learn 100% on the job and will take a minimum of six months to a year to even begin to feel knowledgeable and comfortable with the job. Because it’s so niche, it pays pretty well and firms go to great lengths to keep their people happy and engaged. Contract negotiators are needed at banks, asset management companies, and private law firms, just off the top of my head.

  7. Aggretsuko*

    So birthday cakes have been taken away at my office because the new boss doesn’t approve of cake. Now we all have to have birthday cards signed
    by everyone in the office. However:

    (a) A few people in the office absolutely despise me and lord knows I am not fond of them either. I won’t get into all the ugly details.
    (b) I am 100% positive they don’t want me to sign their birthday cards. I don’t particularly want them to sign mine either but it’s not under my control. They already hate me so I don’t particularly want to make that worse by ruining their birthday cards with my cooties. They are happier if they can forget I exist so I suspect they’d just like, set a card on fire if I’m involved.
    (c) Both they and I have birthdays in the same month coming up (joy) so I don’t have a way to find out ahead of time how to handle this, like if they would just not sign it on their own or what.

    They pass around cards and a signature list signing off that you’ve signed it that goes out to everyone. I am considering just signing the signoff sheet saying that I got the card but not actually physically signing them, and hoping nobody notices that I didn’t physically sign theirs. Or alternately, just quietly requesting that I NOT get a birthday card so I can avoid the issue of them and my card. About half of the office is aware of their hatred towards me and the other half is not.

    How should I handle this situation?

    1. Ali G*

      I think you should pretend it’s no big deal and just sign the cards. When you get a card, say thank you and move on. No need to feed the pettiness of others.

        1. TootsNYC*

          this is pretty smart!

          Then you’ve signed, but if they really don’t like you, they don’t have to look at your signature when they open the card.

    3. booksnbooks*

      I think you should just jot down “Happy Birthday!” and sign your name. It will go a long way to smoothing any tensions that exist, I would think. By skipping signing you’d just be making existing tensions worse, because if it’s as bad as you think it is, they definitely will notice that you didn’t sign — especially if you initial that you saw the folder.

    4. sunshyne84*

      I’d just sign the sheet saying I did and don’t. The sign in sheet is so ridiculous btw.

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Eh, I’m guessing it’s just to track who needs to get the card next.

        1. StressedButOkay*

          That’s exactly why we have a sheet, so we know who not to hunt down. Or sometimes we use it to figure out who still has the card when it sometimes goes AWOL during signing.

      2. Lucy*

        Our sign sheet was mainly to indicate “this person doesn’t need to be passed the card to sign” as it’s tricky to keep track in a big office. It would absolutely have been possible to tick one’s name off without signing the card.

    5. Drew*

      If it were me, I’d sign the card and not give it more thought. I don’t think people who detest you will consider a mandatory signature on a greeting card to be anything more than what it is: “I’ll sign this because it’s way easier than explaining why I don’t want to sign it.”

    6. Lazy Susan*

      You should sign the cards. It is not up to you to try to predict weather your mild “Congrats Judy! or “Happy Returns Tobias” will be received. How other people think of you is not your business. Your business is to be courteous and kind when opportunity presents itself.
      Signing a card is polite. Be polite.

    7. DaniCalifornia*

      I’d sign ‘Happy Birthday’ – Aggretsuko and leave it at that. They probably aren’t keeping the cards and if these people who hate you are petty, imagine what they might say if they see everyone but you signed the card. “Aggretsuko didn’t sign my caaaaarrrdd.” At least if you sign it, you’re following “orders” at work even if they gave you a hard time.

          1. Jen in Oregon*

            Be one of the last ones to sign so there isn’t much room left.. Flip it over and sign the back.

        2. Lazy Susan*

          Aggretsuko, being disagreeable and thinking about others is a lot of work. Let your coworkers carry that workload — you stay ‘work neutral’ – ie have no opinion of them as people, just acknowledge them as humans you work with. This takes no work whatsoever. You simply do not think of them any more than you would the office furniture. You leave the office and they are out of your thoughts. You say hello to them with a courteous voice, you sign their birthday cards, you acknowledge them when you walk into a room, etc etc. but you don’t sit around wondering how the couch feels about your greetings or if the couch is irritated by your voice. Let them do the work of hating, or the work of being irritated over you, whatever. If there is awkwardness in the interactions, let it be theirs, as you are always courteous and ‘work neutral’ – consistent and constant. Your actions will reflect the type of person you are, just as their actions will reflect the type of person they are.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This is great– we don’t worry about how the couch feels about us….. I love this.

            Yes, OP, sign the card. Sign it off to one side, in small print and consider yourself the bigger person.
            They are probably squirming just like you. Take the lead and show them how to handle it.

            I have worked with people who I adored professionally, but we could not even have coffee together because we are so opposite. I have worked with people who were the opposite, I’d enjoy a coffee with them but don’t make me work with them.

            And then there are situations with people where nothing, absolutely nothing is salvageable. My go-to here is not to let the external conflict become MY internal conflict. This means, I must be professionally courteous at all times. If I can’t then I need to take a few minutes to collect my thoughts. On the inside, I stay with my own personal rules and they can do as they wish.

            Typically what happens is these people unravel themselves. Why. Well, in part because they do not have a private plan of how they will conduct themselves. In this case here, I can tell myself that I am following boss’ orders and sign the darn card.
            Use this example to teach yourself how you can best handle future incidents with these people when your paths cross.

            These types of things let me to the overall approach that says, “We don’t have to like each other but we do have to work together and maintain a professional working relationship. Everyone has a right to earn a paycheck. Everyone needs to eat. We have this in common.”

            Side bonus: Anger/animosity/ill will erode our mental and physical well-being over time. Are these people worth throwing away our future health for? This brings us back to “let them unravel their own selves.”

    8. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Honestly, I would just sign the card. “Happy birthday, X — hope you have a good day.” Even if you don’t like someone you can still wish them well. And its just a card, something they’ll probably throw away or file away in a drawer moments after reading through it. Its not like you’re being asked to attend a birthday party for them!

      Caveat: The only time I don’t advocate for kindness in the face of meanness is when someone is harassing you. If this is just a bit of dislike, then sign the card and move on. If they sign yours, no big deal either.

    9. plant lady*

      I think your plan is a fine one (initial that you got the card, but not actually signing the birthday card), but MAN am I curious about the situation here. And so sorry that you have to deal with this at work! Is this a bullying situation? Is there any way for you to get out of it?

      1. Aggretsuko*

        It actually has been a bullying situation. I got moved out of that work group eventually.

    10. CJ*

      Sign the card, even if it’s just your name without a message. Consider it the high road or just a professional courtesy. The card will end up in the trash eventually anyway!

    11. StressedButOkay*

      I would sign it and forget it – I’m not sure about others, but I generally don’t pour over the cards that I get from coworkers to see who did/didn’t sign it.

    12. General Ginger*

      I’d just sign the card. Your coworkers thinking you have cooties is their problem.

    13. Half-Caf Latte*

      It sounds like there’s more going on here than what you’ve shared. I note the “cakes have been taken away” and “have to have birthday cards signed by everyone.

      With the wording you’ve used, I suspect the best course of action is to just sign the card. Opting out of signing, or of your own card, is going to make it a “thing” and risks reflecting poorly on you.

      If you had never been big on celebrating, you might have been able to say, oh, no card for me, please, but asking for no card after having gone along with cake in the past seems weird. If I didn’t know about the beef, I’d think it was a passive aggressive reaction to having cake taken away, and think it petty.

      Unless there were extremely messed up dynamics between you and the others that I was aware of, I’d think you were allowing these people outsized power over your emotions.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yes, there are “extremely messed up dynamics.” Bullying has gone on. But I think everyone else is right and I need to suck it up. I need to be impeccable here and not show that I am uncomfortable.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I have been where you are.
          I would like to point out that there is a surprise here, at least for me. I found parts of myself I never knew I had. I grew and I was proud of my growth. In that growing, their power diminished. I had taken back my own power.

          Bullies work on the basis of robbing us of our power. Decide that you have a lot of power and you are going to use it. I don’t mean you have the clout to make their day miserable. It’s not that kind of power. You have the power to rise above them and their crap and excel anyway.

          Unfairly, we have to let go of parts of ourselves (such as signing that card) in order to find new and bigger parts of ourselves. It feels like jumping the Grand Canyon, initially. But once you see what this is, it won’t be as daunting in the future. Decide now is the time to take your power back. And what an ideal situation, the boss has ordered you to sign this card. It’s their meltdown, not yours.

    14. PicoSignal*

      Sign the cards of all co-workers. In this case, your signature on a group birthday card doesn’t indicate personal fondness; it indicates a minimum level of professionalism. I’m sorry you’re in such an uncomfortable position at work!

    16. LGC*

      First of all, find a new job because your boss is a MONSTER for banning cake. /s

      Anyway. So to be serious: can you push back on it being required to sign a card? That’s the biggest issue here – your boss is making this mandatory, and I feel like you’ve expressed a decent reason why this is a bad idea. (Also, you are an adult (and possibly also a death metal singing red panda), and the card thing sounds like something you’d make grade schoolers do.)

      It’s better if you can push back as a group, so I’m hoping you have friends that agree with you. (I’m guessing your enemies feel similarly, but I’m not going to suggest that for obvious reasons.)

      If your boss is still continuing with this horrible idea (the birthday cards you HAVE to sign), I’d just say that you should sign the card. It’s from the group, not you personally. If they want to burn it because (horrors!) you were forced into signing it, that’s their problem.

    17. Catleesi*

      I would just sign the card without a message and put it out of your mind. It’s not so much “sucking it up” as showing that you can be professional if anyone else is paying attention to this stuff. Some people, regardless of what is going on with a situation (you mentioned harassment in a post), are going to look at stuff like this to judge your behavior. Not signing the card could be viewed as petty (I’m not saying it is, but it could be framed that way.)

    18. LaDeeDa*

      Don’t make it a big deal. I sign most cards with something like “I hope your day is as cool as you. (my name)” Generic, non-committal.

      1. Drew*

        For really annoying coworkers, this is the same as “I hope you rot in Hell,” so bonus metamessage!

    19. Mr. Tyzik*

      If you’ve been harassed and bullied by these people, I think you’re within your rights to not sign the cards. There’s no need to be the “bigger person” in this situation. You’ve been removed from the situation, why continue it with a meaningless tradition?

      Don’t sign the cards.

    20. It's the little things*

      Just sign your name, I often see that on work cards where people either don’t know the person well or are being ‘forced’ to sign the card

    21. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

      Could you just write a brief note (i.e. “Happy Birthday”) and just…not include your name in the card?

    22. Samwise*

      Not signing the cards is going to look passive-aggressive. Sign the card, initial the list, pass it on.
      If you get a card with their names on it, don’t make A Thing about it. Leave the card displayed on your desk for one day. Throw it away, shred it, burn it…whatever — at home, not at the office.

      Do NOT say anything about not getting a card, not signing cards, etc. You do not need to die on this hill.

    23. Autumnheart*

      I’d just sign the card and leave it at that. The whole situation seems overly political (what happens if you don’t sign a card? Someone tells on you and you get in trouble?) and it would suck if such a petty detail blew up into a ding on your reputation. I can’t tell from here whether your boss has their head on straight about these things, or not.

    24. Armchair Analyst*

      I love the pettiness of even thinking of this as a situation.
      Good luck, let us know how it goes!

    25. Wouldn't be funny if...*

      This is not a serious suggestion, but… Sign it John Hancock style, AS BIG AS POSSIBLE.

      (I actually think you should just sign it like you would for any other acquaintance at work.)

    26. TootsNYC*

      If you feel you have to sign, just use your initials.

      And you might get a friend to snag the routing list early and cross their names off the list.

    27. ello mate*

      I would just write “Happy Birthday!” on the card and consider this a non-issue and deal with the larger issue of what is seemingly a very stressful/toxic workplace?

  8. Peaches*

    I recently took over a new role at my company. My replacement for my old role started two days ago, and she’s already rubbing me the wrong way, but I’m not sure whether my feelings are reasonable. There are two things that she does that really irk me.

    1.) Nearly every time I’m talking and telling her about a process, she interrupts me and tries to finish my sentence with what she, I guess thinks, I’m going to say. 99% of the time, it’s not what I was going to say. I don’t know if she’s trying to come across as intuitive, but it’s really irritating to me, especially when she’s inserting incorrect information. For example—

    Me: So next, we’re going to want to go into the order status area…
    Her: ….so that we can make sure the customer received the item?
    Me: No, so that we can make sure the delivery ticket was sent to our warehouse

    2.) She has called me “hun” a handful of times now. The first time, I thought I misheard her. The second time, I was taken aback, but failed to correct her. For context, I am a 25 year old woman. I’m not sure how old she is, but I would guess between 32-35. I do feel as though she wouldn’t use this terminology if I were a man training her. It seems pretty demeaning to me.

    Now, she does seem competent and has the experience to excel in this position. However, I just get “know it all” vibes from her, and it’s only been two days. How do I nip this in the bud?

    1. Artemesia*

      Lots of people learn better through interaction rather than through passive listening. By trying to make sense of it, she is cementing her knowledge. Of course it would be better if she wasn’t getting it wrong but can you change the way you train her to have her do more application e.g. you describe X procedure and then ask her ‘so if Fergus brings in the TPS draft, you would. . .?’ Try to see this as a clue to help you train her better.

      The hon thing is sometimes regional. I am not a fan either. If it really bothers you ask her to call you by your name because endearments in the workplace squick you out.

      This stuff all seems like the usual trivial of interpersonal annoyance, I’d try to ignore it.

      1. Peaches*

        I suppose I should have mentioned this in my post since a lot of people are commenting the same thing, but I’m having her do tasks/processes herself in addition to me teaching her. So, plenty of hands on training!

        She’s actually originally from the same state (Missouri) a few hours away, and I’ve never heard anyone else use ‘hun’ so frequently. Maybe it’s just a quirk!

    2. OtterB*

      Will you be working with her ongoing, or just for a short transition while you’re training her?

      Re the incorrect finishing your sentences, she may be trying to show that she’s engaged and proactive (rather than just listening silently and fearing she comes across as bored). It’s still annoying, but perhaps less so if you reframe it that way. I also think you could continue after her interruption with “Let me finish. It’s so we can make sure the delivery ticket was sent to our warehouse” and see if that reduces it.

      Re “hun” there have been some previous discussions about this. I’d probably just repeat, “It’s Peaches,” whenever she calls you hun.

      If you think she’s genuinely trying a power play to position herself as more knowledgeable/more experienced than you, then you may want to be more outspoken. But I wouldn’t jump to that assumption based on your description.

      1. Peaches*

        Once she is trained, I won’t work a great deal with her, but still some. Our office is small, so we’ll still have some work that overlaps.

        I’m not certain it’s a power play, but that I’d say that’s my initial impression after the couple of days I’ve spent with her. She’s also made offhanded comments about how our website doesn’t function exactly the way she would like, and said she “could easily fix some of the quirks if IT would ever be willing to give her access.” So, comments like that have also made me think she may be trying to assert her intelligence.

        1. SMH RN*

          I can’t speak directly to your trainee but I know that trying to finish other people’s sentences is something I have to watch myself on. I don’t really even do it consciously-just trying to see if I really grasp what they’re explaining by running it through my head and spitting out my conclusions to see if I’m right. Also it’s just a quirk of my family communicates…lots of us have word finding difficulties are easily distracted so it’s helpful in a private setting. More a habit to break at work, not a power play on my part

    3. JediSquirrel*

      1) “I’m sorry, but our time is very limited. Please allow me to finish my sentences and if you have a question afterward, I’ll be happy to answer.”

      2) is she from Baltimore? Because this is a Baltimore thing. OTOH, she may not remember your name.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        I’m not from Baltimore… but I tend to do that when learning and/or being shown something. I think it’s a weird subconscious thing that helps me remember and learn new tasks. Plus, I’m the type that always wants to know the WHY of something and I can unfortunately get ahead of myself because my brain is moving miles a minute.

      3. Peaches*

        She is not from Baltimore…I live in the midwest (Missouri) and she is from a smaller, but still fairly well known city also in Missouri a few hours away. I hope she remembers my name though, haha. Our office only has about 8 employees here regularly, and I’m the one primarily training her.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          That might be my city. I don’t know anyone who says “hun” all the time, so it’s probably just her. It’s perfectly fine to say “I prefer Peaches, thanks,” and then continue with your instructions.

          1. Peaches*

            She’s from Springfield, MO. I know quite a few other people from there, and have never heard any of them say “hun”. Haha.

    4. Triplestep*

      1.) This would drive me bonkers. Hopefully she is just nervous and trying to show the person who used to have her role how knowledgeable she is. If you have the patience, I think I would not acknowledge the interruption and just finish your sentence as if she had not spoken. I’m not suggesting you talk over her – just start and finish your sentence. She might eventually stop. If you’re not going to have to keep working with her after the knowledge transfer, there’s really no point in addressing the problem.

      2.) This always takes me aback, but then I realize for a lot of people it’s just a verbal tick and not meant to be overly familiar or condescending. I’m in my fifties for context. If she reported to you, you’d probably want to coach her to stop, but I’d just try to power through.

      1. Peaches*

        1.) I am hoping the same, that it’s perhaps just her nerves. I will try to carry on and see if she stops talking. I will have to work with her a little bit after the transition (we’re a small office where all of the roles have at least a bit of overlap), but hopefully it won’t become a huge problem.

        2.) Interesting. I’ll try to just power through!

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      I feel ya. My new team lead is a ‘hon’ addict (me: late 40s, her: 50s?), and it just feels so infantilizing. The forced teaming through complaining about people and touching really don’t help, and my talking style probably doesn’t either.

      1) Maybe a brief, matter of fact statement, next time she does it, with lots of softening (you have power over her, ergo softening): ‘I appreciate that you’re trying to be proactive, but I teach better if I can get full sentences out. Please hold comments / write down questions until we finish the screen.’ Then make sure every screen or so, you pause and ask her for feedback. Knowing she’ll have a chance to speak / interact may help cut down on interruptions.

      2) She does at least do ‘hon’ to everyone who is equal or below her in rank (male or female), and some people a level above. That helps me deal with it, but it’s ‘take a deep breath and move on’ even so.

    6. Argh!*

      You don’t nip something like that in the bud. She’ll settle into things and get along just fine.

    7. Moonbeam Malone*

      For the first one, it might help to actually pause a few seconds when she does this, so that she becomes more conscious of what’s happened. It’s good to correct her, and you can also say, “Actually, Jane, if you can hold onto your question until I’ve finished my thought I think you’ll find I’m already answering it. In this case, no, that is not correct. As I was about to tell you, the procedure is X.”

      For the second one, you can treat it like it’s no big deal. “I prefer Peaches, thanks!” If she gets flustered or defensive, stick with the casual tone. “Oh, sure. I just prefer to be called by name. Thanks for understanding!”

      1. Peaches*

        Thanks! I think tone is important. My hesitation to speak up often comes from my fearing that I’ll come across overly harsh.

        1. Moonbeam Malone*

          Yeah, it’s super tricky to walk that line! At least with the first issue I think you can frame it as wanting to keep the training on track and get through everything in a timely fashion. You don’t have to shut down questions totally, just help her to do things in order. Right now she’s jumping the gun and getting too far ahead of the conversation and it’s just going to slow things down.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Practice at home or practice in the car on the way to work.
          Ask yourself “what do I want her to know and act on?”

          I would start by saying, “We need to go over a couple small and easy to fix things. First, it’s really not a good idea to call people “hon” in the workplace. It can be construed as other things that I know you do not mean, such as condescension. Second thing is you have to let people finish their sentences, I think you are excited about doing a good job and don’t realize that you are jumping in too often. I really debated about mentioning these things to you because they are small and perhaps as you get used to the job they would just fall by the wayside. But as your trainer it would be wrong of me not to tell you what you need to do to succeed here. Now is no big deal, it’s just new job jitters. If I let this go on for months and months without saying anything then I am, in a way, setting you up to fail. And that would be wrong of me.”

          Notice here how I down played how these habits appear to others over the long haul. You can go in on a second conversation and put more emphasis on how these habits effect workplaces and effect an employee’s job performance. On your first try talking to her you want to assume she will just fix it as quickly as possible. This assumption makes it easier for you and easier for her.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            PS. I have trained a lot of people. I can tell you it’s the ones who are NOT nervous who are the most concerning. Consistently they were the ones who did not last. Nervous people are nervous because they want so hard to do a good job. You can smile and tell her, “I can see you really want to do a good job here. I will help you do that.”

    8. Jessica*

      I know someone who does that finishing a sentence thing all the time. It’s just one of her conversational quirks. I’m not in a position to correct her, but while it can be annoying, it doesn’t have much more meaning than somebody saying “um” all the time. I mean, she could be trying to demonstrate her knowledge, but it might just be the way she is in conversations.

      1. Peaches*

        That’s true. I just don’t want her to miss something important because she’s just waiting to jump in and say what she thinks is right.

    9. CatCat*

      1) “I’ve noticed that you sometimes inject what you think I’m going to say when I am speaking. Please let me finish what I am saying and then let me know if you have a question about it.” If she interrupts again, call it out. “Please don’t interrupt. As I was saying…”

      2) “Actually, I go by Peaches.” or “Please don’t call me ‘hun,’ I go by Peaches.”

    10. just trying to help*

      Time to let baby bird fly on her own. You said she seems competent, so let her crash or soar all by herself. I have also run into the “hun” type of stuff too and mostly I chalked it up to cultural or generational differences and let it slide.

    11. LaDeeDa*

      I friggin hate it when people interrupt me to complete a sentence, they are always wrong!!! I usually dead stare and say “No, please let me finish my sentence.”

    12. JGray*

      I know that you commented that she is getting lots of hands on training which is good but has she been writing things down? I had this happen last year at my job. I got promoted and the first person we hired just had the attitude that she knew it all and this was just a secretary job. That is so far from the truth. But anyway she never wrote anything down and then after I left her alone I would hear her flat out lie to people when asked if she has been trained on something. She would say no but yet I had trained her she just never wrote anything down. She also told someone my new job was just writing letters and scheduling class which she could do. I was thinking you don’t even know how to do the job that is four levels under mine so no way you can do my job. So I would say train her as best you can and then leave her alone. If a question comes up about something make sure you send an email. That is what I did once I left the person alone- send an email providing clarification on things.

    13. TootsNYC*

      With the interrupting, you might start stating observations: “That’s the third time your guess has been wrong.”
      And I think since youa re training her, it’s absolutely OK for you to say:
      “I’ve noticed that several times you have interrupted me to try to guess what I’m going to say–but most of the time you have been wrong. I think this would be more efficient if you would let me finish my sentences, since you haven’t worked here long enough to know what the next part is going to be. I worry that you will get distracted from the actual information.”

      And you can stop in the moment, wait for her to stop, and then say, “You’ve guess wrong again, please don’t interrupt. I need you to listen first, and not interrupt with your guesses.” Don’t be mean, but you ARE in charge of the training, and this is a waste of your energy.

      With the “hun,” I think you can say, “I’m sorry; please don’t call me ‘hun.’ Call me Peaches.” And then you may need to let it go.

      Both of these sound a bit like dominance patterns; maybe once she’s been there a while it’ll settle down.

    14. Hired Wrist*

      I’m shocked and disappointed that no one so far has suggested you to tell her “Don’t call me hun, I prefer Attila, thankyouverymuch.” in a deadpan manner just to see if she catches on that you’re not cool with the term.

      Seriously though, I hope all this is because she’s new and not because she’s truly annoying!

    15. NotAnotherManager!*

      My 10-year-old is a totally incorrect sentence-finisher, and it is driving me insane. I cannot imagine how enraging that would be from another adult. Hopefully, with an adult, you can point it out and ask her not to do it, but , yeah, that grates, particularly on top of “hun”.

  9. ArtK*

    Update on my “2nd chance” letter from last week. Summary: I was rejected for a job, but the recruiter gave me some great feedback and said that I could submit a cover letter addressing the issues.

    I sent the letter, after getting help from several people who know me — including one of my references and someone else who has worked at the company in a similar job — and the recruiter wrote back saying that we’re going to schedule a phone interview with the hiring manager for some time next week!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is great news! Good luck with your phone interview, that’s great progress and this has all been a learning experience for you.

  10. Applesauced*

    Has anyone else been seeing “Hire me!” banner ads on this site? (a young man’s face and buzzwords, it kind of looks like a local real estate ad)

    I’ve seen them for a few days, and finally clicked one just to see what it was – it’s exactly what you’d expect, the ad leads to this guy’s personally website where he’s trying to get hired.
    At first I thought, “Ugh, how much GUMPTION does this guy have”, but then I looked at his website….. and it’s chock full of bad advice (very sales-y, includes lots of personal info, has a he’s got reviews from previous employers) he’s a recent grad and I feel bad for him – a) he’s clearly gotten clearly terrible advice about placing ads to find a job, and b) given everything Alison has said about gimmicks, he’s targeting the wrong website.

  11. KatieKat*

    Please share your networking tips! I’m attending a conference alone for the first time and hoping to make some new contacts (thinking I’ll be looking for a job in 6-12 months). I’m nervous and could use any and all advice!

    1. S*

      Just try to connect, on a human level. Ask questions. Talk to people. “Hey, love your blouse.” “So, what brings you here?” “Have you been in [industry] long?” “Read any good books lately?” Don’t worry too much about “can this connection lead to a job…? ” Just connect.

    2. OtterB*

      It depends on your field, but look for sessions that specifically include interactions (roundtables, poster sessions, etc.) rather than just large talks or panel discussions.

      If there’s a “first time conferencer” session near the beginning or a sticker/ribbon for your badge saying that, take advantage. It will make other people more likely to open discussion.

      While sitting next to someone before a session starts, or standing in line for something, or joining a partially-full table at a meal, I start conversations with, “Hi, I’m OtterB from [state/region] and I’m interested in [specialty area or topic]. How about you?” Or, in your case, “I’m finishing my degree in [area] this year.”

      1. KatieKat*

        These are really helpful, thank you! I tend to do better with more structured social interactions so the idea of choosing things like roundtables whenever I can is an especially good one (especially since there will then hopefully be a familiar face or two at the more social events). Thanks!

    3. epi*

      In my field there are poster presentations. It sounds like a research thing but people will highlight projects from their practice as well. It’s the absolute best– people standing around whose only job is to talk to anyone who walks by and asks them a question, in front of a poster that acts as a giant icebreaker. And they aren’t sales reps, they’re your peers.

      I personally found it way easier to meet people that way, than to force myself to go to the more social events alone.

      1. KatieKat*

        That would be cool! Unfortunately this is a more corporate conference so the expo is all vendor booths :/

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Years ago I was given this advice and it has proved true: You can skip every panel and presentation, but don’t skip a single social event. The reality is that those social events are where you meet people and meeting people is how you network. So, approach folks you don’t know who are sitting alone at tables or tables of people you don’t know and just chat. Be friendly.

      And lest you think I’m super social and skilled that this, I am so bad at it and I actually wrote down a list of questions to ask new people I didn’t know when I started. So, just practice, practice and practice some more.

        1. WomanOfMystery*

          Different person, but I like to ask what about projects that people are working on. What’s been your favorite part of the con so far/ what are you looking forward to? Is there new regulations/research that affects your industry?

        2. AnotherLibrarian*

          Hmmm… Here’s a few I think I’ve used regularly:
          (To a presenter) I really enjoyed your talk on X, can you tell me a little more about Y?
          (To another person after a talk) What did you think of the panel?
          (At receptions (these are all library focused, so bare that in mind) Where are you from? What does your library do? How was your travel? What panels did you go to today? I went to X and I really thought Y about it.

          I’d also second everyone who said get a “first timer” for your badge if they have them. I always try to strike up conversations with those folks. So, help those of us who want to be friendly be friendly. I didn’t get one my first time and it was a huge mistake. Also, admit to people you’re new/nervous. I did that at the first conference I presented at and some super nice folks came to my talk and gave me big thumbs up right before I started. It was so kind!

    5. Moonbeam Malone*

      This might sound obvious, but please make sure you have business cards with you! I met people at a major networking event who didn’t bring anything like that because they were just…testing the waters I guess? There to observe? But it’s a huge missed opportunity. I kept all the business cards I got there, bookmarked websites and followed some folks on social media later. They get to stay on my radar, years later. The folks who had nothing to give me? Nope.

      1. KatieKat*

        Thanks! I just had new ones delivered and a schmancy little case so I’m all set on that front…as long as they make it into my suitcase lol! I have spoken at conferences my company hosted so at least have that habit, but haven’t ever had to go in cold/not knowing anyone.

        1. Moonbeam Malone*

          Nice! I really need to get a case for mine! I sometimes put them in a little wallet but I’m finding that a bit inconvenient.

        2. Policy wonk*

          Put some in your wallet now. That way if you forget or misplace the case you will still have some business cards with you.

        3. a good mouse*

          Remember that at the beginning of your career, the value of having a business card is really in getting one back. Don’t expect them to remember you or reach out to you – take the opportunity afterwards to reach out to them.

          I found value in having a google spreadsheet where I put people’s name, company, and a note about what they do and how I met them, so that I wasn’t sifting through business cards when I wanted to find some info.

      2. Christine*

        For business cards – whenever someone hands me a business card I jot down a quick note on the back of it. This is just anything that will job my memory about who they are or what we talked about. When I don’t do that the pile of business cards I bring back with me doesn’t mean anything because I can’t remember who is who!

    6. Kathenus*

      Great to be thinking about this in advance, because networking is frequently the most beneficial and long-lasting result of conferences in my experience. Three techniques that have worked for me. Try to seek out people who have given talks or presentations when you see them later in the event, because commenting on their talk is an easy conversation starter. Look for people who are by themselves at breaks or social events, and go up and introduce yourself and say hello. These can sometimes also be newer or shyer people who will likely welcome the interaction. And at social events, take a deep breath, go up to a group or table and ask if you can join them. It’s hard to do the first few times but a great way to meet people. If you’re nervous about doing so, reverse the roles in your mind and think how you’d react if you were with a group and someone came up and asked this – you’d probably welcome them and be happy they came over. They’ll likely feel the same about you. Good luck!

    7. LaDeeDa*

      Conferences can be soooooo overwhelming! What I do is scan all the talks/seminars/classes and I pick a theme based on what are some goals I have for the new year, and I focus on attending talks aimed at that. Usually, people go to a conference and they try to pick multiple topics/themes… but what that does is give you a little bit of everything, instead of a wide view of one or two things. I find focusing on one or two themes/topics much more effective. With that my connecting becomes much more focused.
      So then when I am networking with people associated with that one topic I have a much more focused narrative to discuss. Then you can say something like (to an attendee of the same topic) “Is this something you have done, or about to do in your role? What are your outcomes objectives for doing (this)?” If speaking to an expert who spoke: “I am going to be planing this, what are some barries I might encounter?”

    8. Hamburke*

      I’m naturally chatty and friendly so I make a lot of contacts at conferences and training classes easily. I introduce myself to whoever I sit next to or sits next to me. I ask questions about their jobs and companies. I ask what other sessions/trainings they are going to. In small group/workshops, I state what drew me to the sessions or what problems I’m having (“I’m Hamburke and the reason I’m taking this class is… Has anyone worked through a similar issue?”). I have business cards b/c it takes too much time to write my info down for each person I exchange info with (for my volunteer job, I have home-printer cards but my paying job has VistaPrint cards). I follow up with everyone when I get home – “Hi Thomasina – it was great meeting you today at xyz training! Thanks for your story about y – it really helped me understand the ramifications of z. Hope to see you at the next training for abc that we talked about. – hamburke” My boss laughs – I’m not in sales at all but often come back to the office with new clients.

      1. KatieKat*

        Thank you! I am so jealous of people for whom that comes naturally. Thanks for sharing some detail on how you do it!

  12. jack*

    I dyed my hair purple and was a little worried about backlash, but it’s been 2 weeks and only positive comments! So glad I took the plunge. Anyone else make another less orthodox change to their physical appearance?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I dyed my hair purple in 2017 for a wedding, and nobody cared one way or the other. =P
      I was a little disappointed actually. It was such a bright violet, I was proud of it.

    2. Aleta*

      I have a Warrior’s Wolf Tail-ish hairstyle that I let grow out to more ATLA season 3 levels sometimes, and I shaved it down to a #1 recently. I was worried it was a bit Too Extreme for my office (that I’m leaving anyway so it wouldn’t have been THAT big a deal), but the next day my boss complimented me on it so I was definitely in the clear.

    3. Murphy*

      I have fire engine red hair. I had it before I started working here 3 years ago. I went to a more conservative red when I interviewed, because I really needed to get out of my old job and I wasn’t sure what they would think here. After 6 months or so I went back, because I figured no one would care, and nobody did! I get a few comments from older male professors every now and then, but it also helps me get recognized at events by the many people with whom I usually correspond via email. So overall, well received!

    4. peachie*

      I have done that! I noticed that if you don’t make a big deal about it, no one else did either.

    5. Middle Manager*

      Yes, I went purple last year. I was worried about it. It’s highlights, so if I have it up in a ponytail it’s not super obvious. I think that has helped. I’ve only gotten positive comments. I do still worry sometimes though that some folks don’t really approve and just aren’t saying it? But I know myself to be a worrier so I try to put it in that context.

    7. Free Meerkats*

      62 year old male here with long pink hair and beard. It started out for a costume, but I’ve maintained it this way for over a year now. I have an appointment with my hair professional to strip it to stark white. I looked the last full dye job after the color strip and liked the pure white.

    8. Karen from Finance*

      I went Sinead-O’Connor-style buzz cut for a while. Granted, I was recovering from lymphoma, but I made the decision to stop wearing the wig before it had grown back.

      People who didn’t know the reason assumed I’d just gone punk and I got nothing but compliments.

    9. Aggretsuko*

      I had washout purple hair for a bit. I loved it but wouldn’t be able to do it now. I also got called for a job interview at the police department when I still had some purple in, so I pulled my hair back as tight as possible and hoped they didn’t notice. They didn’t hire me, but I think it was for other reasons.

    10. Chuck*

      I got an industrial piercing about two months after I started an admin assistant job. And of course I have very short hair, so it was very visible. No one said anything about it though!

    11. Long Time Fed*

      Not really unconventional, but I’m a mid-level manager in a public facing role and I’m 50. I’ve wanted a tattoo for years and decided to either go big or go home, so I now have a large tattoo on my left forearm. I can’t hide it and don’t want to.

      I’ve gotten a few second glances and I’m sure some whispers, but most people love it at least to my face and I don’t care one way or the other!

      1. jack*

        I have a few tattoos but none visible. The next one will be on my forearm though! But in manufacturing, tattoos are not all that uncommon so I don’t think it’ll stick out much.

      2. SignalLost*

        I have had wrist tattoos since … 2008? They cannot be covered even if I wanted to; I’ve only ever had one mildly-negative comment (from a stranger). I also have a purple mohawk and my manager likes my style.

    12. Joielle*

      I have purple hair and a very queer haircut! Nothing but compliments. Although I imagine if anyone didn’t like it, they would probably keep that opinion to themselves.

      1. jack*

        lol I did the queer cut last year and the dye job this year. Though I’ve always dyed my hair to just short of natural colors, so it wasn’t a huge leap. I also wear a hairnet about 50% of the time.

    13. Sleepless*

      My teenage daughter colored her dark brown hair turquoise blue a few months ago. She got nothing but compliments, even from a few people who I thought would really disapprove.

    14. CL*

      I’m in an upper management professional position in State government and while the dress is business casual for most staff, upper level management is more conservative/professional. I have several hidden tattoos – some quite large – but took the plunge recently and started working on a large arm tattoo that’s very visible. I surprised quite a few people but several were [kindly] inquisitive, especially since it gave them a peek into my personality that many didn’t expect. I am more cognizant of when/where it’s appropriate to have my tattoo showing.

      1. DataGirl*

        When I’m in full business gear none of my tattoos show, but if I wear anything with a 3/4 sleeve one wrist tattoo shows, and in summer with open shoes my feet tattoos show. Most people are only aware of the wrist and are shocked to find out I have 9 more hidden under all those clothes.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      I changed my hair from auburn to blonde while at Exjob and my coworkers were a little surprised since it was such a drastic change. When I realized colored streaks would show up better on blonde hair, I went a little nuts with the pink (all temporary). Nobody cared about that, however.

      I’d love to find a great-paying job where I could wear various hair chalks and no one would bat an eye, but alas, it will probably only be on the weekends.

    16. DataGirl*

      I had rose gold highlights put in my hair but they were super subtle so not many people noticed. On the other hand I am a tattoo junkie and just got my 10th. Most of them are covered all the time but in the summer the ones on my feet and wrist show, and since my latest two are on my upper chest those will probably peek out once I’m not so bundled up. Most people don’t say anything, or say something stupid like ‘does it hurt’. My boss once asked me why I do it. My response was because I want to.

    17. Sam Sepiol*

      My hair has been blue since October. It was supposed to just be until Christmas but I love it so much it’s staying.

      I also have a nose piercing and a rook piercing, and three holes in one ear lobe.

    18. Janet Snakehole*

      I’m dying my hair pink this weekend!

      I went back to a “found in nature” hair color when I was job hunting about a year ago. I’ve been testing the waters at New Job to see how it would go over, and I’m pretty confident that I won’t make any serious waves. And if I do, I’ve already checked with my boss and gotten the go-ahead.

    19. just a reporter*

      I have a nose piercing, decently sized wrist tattoo, and dyed my hair blue once even though I work in a conservative area. These changes never impacted how people interacted with me in a professional setting, and in fact put some at ease!

      I was a bit worried, specifically about my tattoo, but it’s of my cat who passed a few years ago and meant a lot to me. Most old ladies turn out to be cat lovers, so when I show them my tattoo they absolutely gush and ask me what his name was :)

    20. redbug34*

      I just took the purple plunge too! I’ve gotten nothing but positive feedback from coworkers & friends alike. (TBH I work in a very liberal setting – my boss currently has blue highlights).

      I did worry some because I’ve actively job-hunting and haven’t done a purple-haired interview yet, but it’s good to know it’s not so heavily stigmatized.

    21. Ms.Vader*

      I have had hot pink hair and shaved half my head. I also have 6 tattoos where 5 are visible and 2 are Star Wars characters. Nobody even blinks an eye (which I’m a bit sad at as I love to talk about my tattoos lol).

    22. Dasein9*

      My hair has been bright blue or purple since June and I wear a black t-shirt to work every day. No biggie, but there is still one upper-management person who still doesn’t know who I am.
      (Not the same black t-shirt; there’s a stack of identical ones in my drawer.)

    23. Ey-not-Cy*

      I’m 53, a high school librarian, and dark purple. I’d grown out all my “natural” dye but am only about 1/3 gray. (Just enough to age me another 10 years, but not enough to make a statement.) The kids either love it, or don’t notice it. One student did say “Ey-not-Cy, your hair color is a bold choice.” My colleagues either love it, or just don’t care. My principal has not said a word. I love it, my husband–eh, not so much, but I think it’s the smell at first that bothers him the most.

  13. Anonish*

    Anyone have tips for surviving your first trimester at work, especially when a few people at work know you’re pregnant but not everyone? I am about eight weeks and find I’m exhausted and out of it by about 3 PM. Luckily I haven’t suffered much with nausea but I am so incredibly tired (and kind of distracted – this is my first pregnancy) all the time.

    1. MissMaple*

      A small thing that helped me was having a piece of hard candy or something I was drinking almost all the time. Basically, just the tiniest bit of planned distraction to keep me from getting bogged down in tiredness and bigger distractions. I’m still doing it now a month back from maternity leave :) A plus is that if you drink an herbal tea, it’s great for keeping hydrated too!

    2. Artemesia*

      I found that it was important to snack regularly to keep blood sugar even — I would really slump around 3 or so. I always had grapes. I would also save a stack of routine non-demanding work to do during that slump. Use your morning hours to get important stuff that requires your brain done and then do the potato peeling at 3-5 — filing paperwork, filling out routine forms, sending routine emails, — whatever in your job is the least demanding least error prone work.

      The good news is that the fatigue of the first trimester does tend to go away. I was full of energy the last 6 mos of my pregnancies and worked literally up to the day of delivery. The first 3 mos were when all I wanted to do was sleep.

      Also see if you can change your evening routine at home to get more rest. Can you simplify meal prep or postpone housework till the weekend and can your partner take over things that exhaust you. Being able to go home and put your feet up and watch TV or read a book or do yoga may help you regroup.

    3. knitter*

      I hear you–during my second pregnancy, I was so exhausted all the time I could barely keep my head off my desk for the first 20 weeks. I would come home and lay on the sofa while my toddler crawled all over me.

      I was worried about my performance, so I told my supervisor sooner rather than later. As a person who sets overambitious personal expectations, I reset how I thought about my daily to-dos and made a list of only the top 2-3 priorities. This would help me focus. Mostly, I just reminded myself how much work my body was doing building a baby and cut myself some slack. Since you know you’re done by 3pm, don’t try to fight it and plan to do your least difficult work at the end of the day.

    4. Frankie*

      Yeah, that happened to me. Lots and lots of fatigue. It didn’t help the tired feeling, but when I felt guilty about being a little less productive/energetic than normal, it helped to hear that other pregnant women felt the same way–it’s a health condition that takes a lot out of most people, and it’s pretty weird that there’s a tacit idea that we should be able to keep performing 150% while, you know, creating another human for 9+ months. I slept for like 10 hours every night for the first time in my life since I was a baby, and there were still times I felt like I might fall asleep at my desk.

      I don’t know if this is helpful, but you can’t control what others think of you and your work habits. I would try to just accept your energy level where it’s at, do your best with what you have, and try not to hold yourself to an impossible standard. Pregnancy is long but temporary.

    5. Joy*

      I told my supervisor at 8 weeks because my start time ended up being closer to 10 than my usual 9 (flexible hours but I was pushing it and feeling guilty) because of morning sickness and also had NO energy by 3pm. She was great and I just let go of the stress of underperforming for a few weeks. Not much to be done about it except muscle on through! I’m 12.5 weeks now and while the nausea is still here, my energy levels have been better since about 10 weeks.

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Power naps in my car were lifesavers at the beginning and the end. I snacked a lot so could rest at that time. I also drank a peppermint hot chocolate since I was trying to minimize caffeine.

    7. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      Second all of the comments to snack and hydrate. Also seriously if you can pull it off, sleep 10 hours a night. I was already set up for partial telecommuting and ended up sometimes napping over lunch, which was awesome. I commented about it in an earlier thread as well, but I found a lot of benefit brain-wise to keeping my choline levels up (respectable scientific research indicates both that pregnancy depletes choline and that choline depletion causes issues with short-term memory, and also the best dietary source of it is chocolate pudding, so.)

      1. AnitaJ*

        Um, what? Did you just give me permission to eat a lot of chocolate pudding? (33 weeks here)

    8. Bend & Snap*

      Get alllll the sleep. In the first trimester I would get home from work and crawl into bed with all my clothes on, wake up when my husband had dinner ready and go back to bed for the night.

      You’re growing a human! Don’t fight the tiredness.

      A little bit of caffeine and a lot of protein also help during the workday.

      1. Anonish*

        Yes! I have been eating dinner, sleeping from about 7 – 8:30, waking up and watching 20 minutes of YouTube with my husband as our evening entertainment, and then back in bed by 9. For awhile I was trying to be “good” and drink decaf in the morning but my doctor is fine with a cup of regular coffee so I don’t know why I was torturing myself. Having coffee in the morning has helped get me at least to mid-afternoon.

    9. AnonChemist*

      Just passed the end of the first trimester here, and I’d echo what people are saying about hydration and food. For me, I get hungry out of nowhere, so having snack food at my desk helps. My sweet tooth has vanished into the ether, so I’m stockpiling whatever does appeal.

      I’d like to say ‘be easy on yourself, don’t push past what you can do,’ but I know that doesn’t always work. (we temporarily lost one person right at my four week mark and didn’t get him back until week ten or so, from a 2.5 member team, no choice but to fill in) My boss and remaining team member were in the loop due to immediate working-with-chemical concerns, which helped. I tried to triage the work that was piling up, and I guess it worked out. I’ve also let my house descend into utter chaos, but there’s only so much I can do, even with husband help.

      I’d also like to say that entering the second trimester will flip a switch, but ha. Not so much for me. Still tired, increasingly nauseated, and waiting for the promised glow. Maybe month five? Hang in there, and know that feeling this way is par for the course. Solidarity?

    10. Parenthetically*

      Very specific tip, but it was a lifesaver for me: there was something about an icy cold, sweet, fizzy, (moderately) caffeinated can of Coke at lunch that let me get through to the end of the day — just that little kick of sugar and caffeine were exactly the ticket for my mild nausea and exhaustion.

      But also, give yourself a break! You’re growing a person and your body is doing SO MUCH WORK. Rest as much as you can, try to streamline your routines, give yourself some grace. And maybe power-nap in your car at lunch if you can sneak off? :)

      Good luck!

  14. Lucy*

    Happy Friday!

    Spinning off from yesterday’s discussion of email signoffs, let’s talk about “lost in translation” cultural features we’ve encountered when working with people from different regions/ countries/ native languages.

    My first noticeable experience of this type was moving from an office in the Home Counties of England to an office in the same firm but in the northwest of England. Fairly soon after I moved, someone at work asked what I was having for dinner. As it was like 11am I was slightly thrown by the question, and said it would depend how bad the /public transit/ was that day.

    She looked blankly at me. I looked blankly at her. Then the penny dropped.

    “Oh, you mean lunch!”

    1. PX*

      Oooh, I had an actual survey ready for email signoffs but am apparently too late for it :’D In case anyone is interested, these were going to be my questions. In a meeting now, but will come back later to actually give my input :D

      What part of the world are you in?
      What is your field/occupation?
      What is your default email sign off?
      What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?!

      Bonus points: best email sign off typo?
      Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate?

      1. Lucy*

        Ha ha I thought I would widen it out where we are allowed tangents!

        What part of the world are you in? – NW England

        What is your field/occupation? – legal

        What is your default email sign off? – “Best wishes, Lucy” except to JP/KR/IN/ID etc which tend to expect/ appreciate more formality, in which case “Yours sincerely, Lucy Whompengloop (Mrs)”

        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! – the cold British pass-agg switch to “Regards” has prevented more open sarcasm elsewhere in an email /blush/

        Bonus points: best email sign off typo? – I read that someone managed the disablist r-slur typo on an email concerning children with special educational needs. That put the Fear into me and that’s why I use “Best wishes” now.

        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate?
        (1) not using conventional sentence caps. It’s “Best wishes” or “Yours sincerely” or “With warmest and fondest remembrances” and only the first word needs a capital letter.

        (2) abbreviations. Informal or long threaded emails don’t need anything, so putting “KR” is neither observing more formal conventions nor putting them aside completely. Choose a side!

        (I have learned that some environments default to this, including US military “v/r” … but I’m not in that kind of environment so I reserve the right to dislike receiving it.)

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        What part of the world are you in? US South
        What is your field/occupation? Procurement
        What is your default email sign off? Thank you for your time
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! Sincerely (for good). I would never use my sig for shade, it’s way too ambiguous. Text does not convey subtlety well, so I avoid that.

        Bonus points: best email sign off typo? I always use a .sig, so no typos in the last couple of decades
        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate?

      3. Jemima Bond*

        What part of the world are you in? UK (London)
        What is your field/occupation? Civil service
        What is your default email sign off? Many thanks if I’m asking for something, rgds if I’m giving info within my own agency, and kind regards if I hate you (#british)
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! See above. Or if I want to imply you are being dim or not paying attention; “do feel free to contact me if I can clarify matters any further”

        Bonus points: best email sign off typo? I caught it before I pressed send but I have definitely accidentally typed a t instead of a g in Regards.
        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate? Someone at work signs all messages “warm regards” which is weird. Or awards – Percival Warbleworth MBE, or Tangerina McTavish QPM. Probably jealousy lol.

        1. AL*

          “warm regards” just reading that made me shudder a little. That definitely would not be OK in my company culture…

          If I’m annoyed with someone I might add a “Do let me know if…..” if it makes sense to.

      4. Salyan*

        What part of the world are you in? Western Canada
        What is your field/occupation? Housing (quasi government)
        What is your default email sign off? ‘Regards’. ‘Thanks’ if applicable; ‘sincerely’ if trying to be fancy’
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! Probably ‘I appreciate your consideration’ if I’m trying to get them to pay attention to information given!
        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate? ‘Best’ (best what?), or anything with incorrect capitalization.

        My family uses lunch & dinner interchangeably for the mid-day meal (probably leaning a bit more toward dinner), and supper for the evening meal. I tend to use lunch & supper, just to avoid any confusion.

        REPLY

      5. Blue Roses*

        What part of the world are you in? Midwestern United States
        What is your field/occupation? Customer service in the medical manufacturing industry
        What is your default email sign off? Thank you
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! Still probably thank you, honestly

      6. Clawfoot*

        Best email sign-off typo: My real name is Sarah. When I got a new phone, it autocorrected my name to Satan.

      7. Nessun*

        Part of the world: Western Canada
        Occupation: Operations Manager
        Default sign off: Cheers (my family is British, I’ve always understood/used it as a “Thanks!”)
        Email sign off when I’m making a point: With Regards (to be very formal), or none, if I’m PO’d and it’s internal
        Best typo: I double & triple check to avoid typos! …I despise it when people get my name wrong, because it’s IN MY EMAIL ADDRESS and IN MY SIGNATURE.
        Irrational hate: well, maybe the whole name thing? IDK, I get pretty riled. Anything with “warm” in the signoff always seems fake or overly friendly to me; not a fan.

      8. Canadian Natasha*

        What part of the world are you in? Canada

        What is your field/occupation? Legal adjacent

        What is your default email sign off? “Thanks,” or “Thank you,” if making a request. “Yours,” in any other case.

        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! Hmm, I might write something like “Have a great week(or weekend)!” if I want to sound especially congenial. If there is no sign off other than my name, I either want to sound stern, unfriendly, or discouraging or else the exact opposite- we are close enough to write casual emails without formal to/from language.

        Bonus points: best email sign off typo? Got nothing, sorry.

        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate? Tx. If you are going to use text speech can you at least put the h in there?

      9. a good mouse*

        What part of the world are you in? LA
        What is your field/occupation? Show Programming (for Themed Entertainment)
        What is your default email sign off? Thanks!
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! Thank you,

        My friend always signs his emails “Exuberantly,”

      10. user679*

        What part of the world are you in? Germany
        What is your field/occupation? Marketing
        What is your default email sign off? I always try to come across as communicative so I write something like: Please feel free to contact me for more details if you need them. Best regards, kind regards.
        What is your email sign off when you’re trying to make some kind of point (good or bad)?! I would never do that. If anything I’m more polite when I write an escalation email. The escalation is in the facts I bring up in the email, not in the signoff.

        Bonus points: irrational email sign off hate? The long ones. Some cultures tend to write a several-sentence signoff. I have so much to do that I’m not able to do the same and I get crazy when I feel pressed to devote too much time to pleasantries (“I hope you’re doing great and had a superb weekend. I wish you a great holiday”, etc.)

      1. Lucy*

        They have breakfast, dinner and tea. Amomalously, a meal in a restaurant in the evening is a dinner, and a sandwich you made at home and brought to work is a packed lunch.

        The correct answer to “what are you doing for dinner?” would therefore have been “Oh, I’ve got a packed lunch.”

        I gather in certain parts of the English industrial heartlands a packed lunch is called a “snap”. In Scotland it’s a “piece”.

        There weren’t many translation errors except one that hurtles to mind where many people would type non and none (as in none-disclosure for non-disclosure) because locally they’re homophones, and the error is entirely logical.

        2. Jemima Bond*

          Don’t forget in northern England sandwiches are often called butties. So that plastic container with the fashionable cartoon character of the day would be ones butty box. Iirc mine had a picture of Holly Hobby on.

      2. londonedit*

        Tea!

        In some regions of Britain you’ll have breakfast/dinner/tea, in others breakfast/lunch/dinner, and in others breakfast/lunch/supper. Otherwise supper is a small snack-meal that you have later in the evening. And because this is Britain, there are also class implications to all of these.

        1. ElspethGC*

          And then I’m East Yorkshire, and have breakfast/lunch/tea, which seems to be a fairly unique combo.

          Tea is sometimes changed to dinner if we’re being fancy (going out to dinner) and lunch is dinner under certain circumstances (school dinners).

          1. Jemima Bond*

            We used that combo when I was growing up in Cheshire (NW, south of Manchester, for the non-Brits. I hope that isn’t patronising, lovely transatlantic cousins, but I couldn’t point out, say, Wisconsin, on a blank map of the USA so…)

          2. Parenthetically*

            In Australia it can be breakfast/lunch/tea or breakfast/lunch/dinner — according to my Aussie husband, calling dinner “tea” is more characteristic of working-class Aussies, unless you’re talking about throwing together a quick early dinner for the kids. “I’ve got to get the kids’ tea on, Patrick and I are going to dinner with the Abletts’ later.”

            1. WS*

              Yes, there’s a rural/city divide as well. I’m middle-class but rural Australian and I say “breakfast, lunch and tea” but my partner is middle-class but raised urban and says “breakfast, lunch and dinner”.

      3. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

        Supper. My mom and her family (American, from the middle of Pennsylvania) calls lunch dinner and dinner supper as well. They’re ancestrally Irish, and reading this post makes me think that might be a hangover from the old country. I always thought it was a rural Pennsylvania thing.

        1. Undine*

          My family used to call lunch lunch and dinner supper. My mother’s ancestrally Polish, from upstate NY.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Same for my grandparents – Iowa / Missouri, German ancestry, but with ties to the Pennsylvania Dutch. If there’s a class aspect, they are farmers multiple generations including back in Europe.

          1. ExceptionToTheRule*

            Dinner is the primary meal of the day for US Midwestern farm families. In my experience, what time that meal happens is irrelevant.

        3. kbeers0su*

          OHMYGOD. This makes so much sense. I married someone from PA and his family uses this version of dinner/supper for lunch/dinner and it confused me so much the first few years. I thought it was just them!

        4. Reba*

          In my family of origin (KY) “Dinner” means the main meal of the day. Therefore, “dinner” and “supper” are usually interchangeable, but the big holiday meal is “Thanksgiving dinner” even when it happens at 1 pm.

        5. Parenthetically*

          My gran’s nursing home had breakfast/dinner/supper, but that’s because the biggest meal of the day was at midday, and supper was a lighter affair. I grew up with “lunch” as the midday meal, “supper” being a normal evening meal, but “dinner” meaning any large meal, regardless of when it was served. “Sunday dinner” was usually midday, Thanksgiving dinner was probably at 2 pm.

          1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

            I didn’t even realize we do this, too. I just confirmed with my mom that I would be at Sunday Dinner promptly at 1pm :)

      4. Undine*

        Tea. You see it in TV shows sometimes. It took me a long time to figure out what it meant.

        1. Artemesia*

          And at dinner time it is ‘high tea’ — the fancy thing in the afternoon is just ‘tea’ or ‘afternoon tea’.

          1. Lucy*

            It may once have been “high tea” but nowadays it’s just “tea”.

            In fact, I must drag myself away from AAM to make my children’s tea very soon (pasta; it’s after 5pm here).

      5. Catleesi*

        My mom’s family (Wisconsin) has breakfast, dinner, and supper – the noon dinner being the largest of the day. They’re farmers so I always attributed that to getting an extra boost of energy in the middle of the day, but also Irish heritage so many that plays in as well.

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          I had assumed breakfast, dinner, and supper were southern, but maybe it’s an agrarian thing? This is also how my mom’s and spouse’s family name the meals, and both grew up on farms and had the big meal in the middle of the day. No distinct heritage on either side.

    3. Grapey*

      Speaking of penny dropping, “then the penny dropped” is not US slang (but I managed to figure it out from context!)

        1. Artemesia*

          me too — it is sort of an anachronism from coin machines we don’t use much anymore, but it was definitely a not uncommon US phrase.

        2. Elaine*

          Me too. I’ve both heard and used it. But then my mother was Canadian raised by her Scottish grandparents, so perhaps I’m not to be trusted on what is US usage and what is British usage.

      2. Lucy*

        I think it derives from old public telephones where you would put in a coin but it would only be accepted once the call was connected (and if it wasn’t, you’d push the button to reclaim it).

        1. Adele*

          Actually, it is from the old penny-in-the-slot machines: “The phrase was coined in the 1930s in the British publication of The Daily Mirror. The allusion was made to machines that required a penny to operate. Sometimes the coin would be stuck and someone would wait for the penny to drop for the machine to work. When the coin did drop, the phone or toy dispenser or other mechanism would come to life.”

          But, “to drop a dime” (to snitch) on someone does come from using a dime (10 cent coin) to call the police from a pay phone to rat someone out.

          2. Emily S.*

            Oh, thanks, that’s very interesting. And it reminds me of a totally different expression, waiting for the shoe to drop… but I don’t hear that one much anymore.

            1. Marthooh*

              Waiting for the other shoe to drop – I love that expression! It’s so descriptive of a certain kind of uncertainty.

              According to Wictionary: “A common experience of tenement living…with the bedrooms located directly above and underneath one another. Thus, it was normal to hear a neighbor removing their shoes in the apartment above. As one shoe made a sound hitting the floor, the expectation for the other shoe to make a similar disturbance was created.”

          3. Ingeborg*

            The penny dropped Also exists in Danish. Since we do not have pennies our own currency “ører” is named in the saying

    4. Karen from Finance*

      English is actually my second language, as I’m in Latin America, but I’ve worked remotely with people all over the world, mainly US UK and India. I’ve had a lot of situations come up.

      The one where I always cringe at myself when I remember, was once when an executive in the US was asking me about someone who works in my location. I had forgotten the verb “met” as in “to have met someone”.
      Executive: I was talking to “Juan Gonzalez”, do you know him?
      Me: … I’m aware of him, but I haven’t met him.
      Executive: …. You’re AWARE of him?!?!
      Me: I meant to say, I know who he is.

      I think it was common that they’d forget that English wasn’t our first language.

      I know I have to have more examples, I’ll post more as I remember.

      1. Lucy*

        English is my first language and I wouldn’t find that remarkable at all – I think you were fine and the exec was being weird.

        That said, if I said I was “aware of him” there might be an implication that I hadn’t heard good things about him, or that he had a really bad reputation.

      2. Jemima Bond*

        If you want to express that another time, although I too would understand you saying “aware”; a good idiomatic phrase is “I know of him but we haven’t met” making the “of” the stressed word. If the things you’ve heard about the person are notably good or bad, like you’ve heard his name because he was in the weekly newsletter as top salesman of the year or because he nearly got the sack over the dick club affair, you could also say “I know him by reputation”.

          1. Jemima Bond*

            Oh lord I’ve just twigged* – is that why it was called that do you think??
            *i.e. the penny has dropped!

            1. Karen from Finance*

              I think it was the first letter you need to replace instead. Instead of DUCK club, [another letter]-UCK club.

              But your comments gave me a good laugh. Thank you.

              1. Jemima Bond*

                If the said rhyming slang were to be in the true Cockney style, the word used is one associated to the word that rhymes with the word itself. Hence “me old china” = friend, because china plate – mate. Thus I propose the notorious club be called the Crispy club. Or the Gressingham club. Which sounds like it should be based in St James’s, and serve a lot of port and cigars.

                1. fposte*

                  Sometimes it truncates (and, IMHO, it’s the most fun when it does), but plenty of uses don’t–people say the full “brown bread” for “dead,” for instance. But yeah, I was being broad in my use, and you’re right that it’s generally not a single-syllable rhyming replacement.

      3. Spencer Hastings*

        It’s sometimes hard to know what someone is getting at when they ask if you “know” someone! The other day, I had an exchange something like this:

        Other person: “Do you know Danielle?”
        Me: “Well, I know who she is, but we haven’t ‘officially’ met.”

        (His next suggestion was that I should introduce myself to her and ask for her thoughts on a particular thing she’s an expert on.)

        Long story short: “I’m aware of so-and-so” sounds like a fairly ordinary way of expressing this slightly awkward state of affairs, nothing to cringe over.

    5. Yup, this happened*

      I replied to an email from a Chinese customer who had addressed me as Mrs. by asking to be referred to as Ms. rather than Mrs., and Outlook auto-corrected after Ms. making it Ms. Rather than Mrs. The next email from her was addressed to Ms. Rather.

      Yes, this happened!

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      I worked with someone from Poland and we talked on the phone daily. One day he mentioned to me that he would frequently google things I said because I was using American idioms that he had never heard before. I had no idea! My favorite was one time when I said I would kill two birds with one stone.
      “You’ll… what?”
      “Oh! Kill two birds with one stone. It’s a saying. It means I’ll do one thing and it will solve two problems.”
      “But… why would you kill a bird with a stone?”
      “I dunno… I guess I don’t really know where the saying came from.”
      “I mean, unless it’s a really big stone then killing one bird with a stone would be practically impossible but two birds… it just doesn’t make any sense…”

      I loved working with him.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yesssss! I love conversations like that. Idioms across languages are just an endless supply of delightful conversation fodder.

      2. JeanB in NC*

        I had to try to explain feeling “sick to my stomach” to a guy with basically perfect English but who hadn’t really heard any of the colloquialisms. Also “slap upside the head”.

        1. Sleepytime Tea*

          Yeah the person I worked with in Poland had perfect English, better than a lot of native born Americans actually, but American slang and colloquialisms were just something he didn’t experience very often. He was an awesome person and when he first told me he would google some of the things I said I just wished he would ask me in the moment so that we could have these fun conversations more often lol.

            1. Kuododi*

              I tutored ESL students when I was in undergraduate. One of my students who turned out to be a dear friend had an assignment on American idioms. “Raining cats and dogs”was the first example on the homework sheet. We had some delightful conversations on that subject.

              1. Sleepytime Tea*

                In college I helped ESL students at the local high school with their homework. This one girl was studying the bill of rights. Try explaining “the right to bear arms.”

                These words do not mean what you think they mean.

                When I explained it she understood, but just thought it was ridiculous that a word spelled the same way could have two wildly unrelated definitions. She was from… I want to say Uganda. I asked if there were similar situations in her language, where a single word could have different meanings based only on context. She said nothing nearly so distinctly different.

                It was really cool working with those kids.

      4. Penny Hartz*

        My husband’s aunt and uncle live in Switzerland–he’s from the United States, she’s born and raised Swiss. She speaks really good English, but yeah, American idioms and slang confuse and amuse her.
        We were visiting them in Switzerland once, and one night, while we were playing a card game I sarcastically said to my husband,” Really going out on a limb there!”
        She was so confused! “Penny, what are you talking about? What limb? Pat is not on a tree!”

      5. NotAnotherManager!*

        One of my kids is autistic and very literal, and we got a book that has an explanation of common idioms with an illustration of the literal interpretation. He thinks the pictures are hilarious, and it’s been helpful for him in deciphering them.

      6. user679*

        “Oh! Kill two birds with one stone. It’s a saying. It means I’ll do one thing and it will solve two problems.”

        Actually, it’s strange he didn’t get that. There’s a similar saying in Poland – about baking two meals on the same fire.

        2. Sleepytime Tea*

          Well baking two meals on the same fire makes perfect sense. I think his sticking point was that killing a bird with a stone didn’t make sense, and therefore killing two birds with a single stone made even less sense. People cook two things on a single fire (or in a single oven) all the time. He understood it when I explained it, just didn’t understand how the… situation made sense? It was a “you Americans…” kind of moment.

    7. My Brain is Exploding*

      Answer to something before which I can’t find. I have lived in England and different regions in the US. The way I see it: lunch is the noon meal, supper is the evening meal, dinner is the BIG meal (could be at noon or evening); then there’s tea and high tea…

      1. TootsNYC*

        In my family (midwest), we had the same distinctions between lunch, supper, and dinner.

        Sometimes dinner was evening, but that was because it was the big meal. Sunday dinner was midday; there was no Sunday lunch.

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m American. I was really confused about meal times and terms when I moved to the UK. My friends and family come from various regions of the country so I get tea, dinner, bait, and lunch depending on who’s talking. I’m still never quite sure what meal is being referenced!

    9. Ingeborg*

      In Danish the Word that used to mean Breakfast now mean lunch. In swedish the same word still mean Breakfast. So danes and swedes have to specify when they arrange meatings. Also in Danish the Word that used to mean lunch now is used for dinner Even though the word means “middle of the day”

    10. M*

      Most countries that speak languages that are also spoken elsewhere have a small set of words that are just standard vocabulary – not even slang, just assumed features of the language – which are often so obviously *wildly* necessary that when you discover they’re just unique words to your country, it’s genuinely mindblowing.

      My favourite Australian ones are:

      furphy – an erroneous or improbable story that is claimed to be factual (I genuinely spent a lot of time wondering why anyone had bothered to neologism “fake news” rather than just calling furphies furphies before I realised it was “our” word)
      spruik – speak in public, especially to advertise a show, with a growing meaning of “aggressive promotional tactics” generally
      rort – a fraudulent or dishonest act or practice – generally with connotations of taking advantage, rather than out-and-out theft

      1. M*

        (So, to put all those in a sentence: “I’m not here to spruik Australianisms to you, I just think it’s a rort that we’ve somehow monopolised all these crucial words – and I promise you, none of them are furphies.”)

        1. Lucy*

          They’re fab – and I know exactly what you mean. “How can /word/ be particular to us?! How on earth does everyone else express that exact concept otherwise?”

          Moving north I learned the word “nesh” which means “prone to feeling cold” in a slightly derogatory way.

  15. Amber Rose*

    Next week marks the return of The Box of Shame. I’m sorry, I know it’s passive aggressive as hell. But there’s no way around it, this is the only way I’ve found to not end up in the center of everyone’s annoyances. I’ll just air them myself, anonymously, by reading complaints thrown in a box.

    Everyone here seemed to like it last time, at least.

    My annoyance: We have to elect our safety committee. I used to just tell people to be on it, but the government doesn’t let me anymore. So I went through the whole painful process of getting everyone in a meeting to agree on some people… and then afterwards my boss was like, “Kick off Wakeen. Almost everyone in our office is on the committee and we have nobody left in case something happens.” Which, I’m not sure what’s supposed to happen. The phone rings? We can answer from elsewhere.

    I can’t do it anyway. I’d have to do the whole friggin’ meeting thing again. So i’m just gonna leave him on, but have him switch attendance days back and forth with someone else so one of them is in the office.

    I don’t know what else to do. And I’m annoyed she didn’t speak up DURING the meeting, when I said specifically that if anyone had complaints they should speak up, and instead waited to after. Everyone here is so passive, it’s so frustrating.

  16. What’s with Today, today?*

    I just read the article about the Facebook moderators. Oh, holy shit, that’s crazy.

    2. KTemGee*

      Right? That article was genuinely hard to read. Illuminated a different type of job in the “lousy job but someone’s gotta do it” category for me for sure.

    3. Lucy*

      Some years ago I read an article in which a moderator reported having to wade through so many “I’m tagged in this photo but my butt looks big” that they got to reports of child abuse an hour or so too late. I’m sure that kind of thing is why you now have to navigate flow chart menus to report anything.

    4. ElspethGC*

      Something that’s always struck me about moderation is on YT, the channel owner can highlight certain words on certain videos that mean those comments immediately go into moderation. Someone who’s gay might have all the variations on homophobic slurs flagged, for example. I’ve heard of a couple of creators in particular who have that enabled, and I always think “If these are the ones you’ve allowed through moderation because they’re insulting but not too bad, what the hell have you got locked in moderation that’s *worse*?!”

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Oh, I read that too. The call-center atmosphere is the worst part. That’s the kind of thing you just can’t farm out to low-wage workers. If Facebook is going to use humans for this, they should be decently paid employees, not contractors, and be given time / help to process secondary trauma.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      I read it to. Just them talking about the types of things that they have to see… It made me start to get sick to my stomach. I don’t consider myself very sensitive. I can watch surgeries or a replay of someone breaking their leg in football or something and I don’t get queazy. But the thought of seeing a single act of child sexual abuse, much less having to see it regularly… I feel gross just thinking about it.

      The company is wildly irresponsible for not taking care of it’s people better. It’s an important job, but just like any dangerous job, and I would definitely call it dangerous to these worker’s health, there needs to be proper support in place.

  17. Relly*

    I moved into a new role at work and I’m starting to have to put up boundaries really hard, since I was the go-to person for a lot of things but now I have to focus on a specific project and someone else has now taken my place. People still have been coming to me though. My new boss has been pretty absolute about shutting down outside requests, which I love since I was always swamped with a million little things before. But it’s so hard for me to tell people no because I love being helpful! Hopefully it will feel easier soon.

    1. Artemesia*

      You aren’t telling them ‘no’ you are directing them to Bobbins who now is in charge of that role. To do anything else would be to usurp his role. ‘Oh, I have changed jobs, Bobbins is now in charge of travel forms.’ EVERY time. Matter of factly as if you are being helpful with the information. EVERY time.

    2. Coffee Bean*

      It gets easier!

      Just think saying yes to one thing means saying no to another – and you don’t want to say no to anything (even small) on your project, you want that project to be your focus and what you truly excel in. If you are in a new role does that mean your old one was back filled? Can you say no and at the same time direct them to the replacement person? That may also help.

    3. Bend & Snap*

      As someone who is taking over for someone else, it’s REALLY annoying when the person who used to handle things continues to do them. It’s not helpful for letting people know I’m the go-to person, it undermines my ability to establish myself as a resource and it means someone else is doing my job.

      Perhaps reframing it as actually *not* being helpful to do things that you’ve been transitioned off of will assist with the urge to just do the thing.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      This has been happening to me non-stop for 2 years! So I reply with “Hi (name), (area) no longer is part of my role/team. I have copied (person) on this email and they will be able to help you.”

    5. TootsNYC*

      it *IS* helpful to tell them no!

      Think of it like my mom did–or my kindergarten teacher: My kindergarten teacher refused to help me tie my shoes. Refused. I was sobbing, begging, and she said “no, do it yourself.” Well, I did. And ever after, I could tie my shoes by myself.
      Not only did I learn to tie my shoes by myself, but I learned that I COULD learn something difficult.

      You are teaching them either self-reliance, or you are helping them build the new habit of turning to the proper other person.

      And you are helping that proper other person get better at their job, and become established as the new go-to person in other people’s brains.

      Sometimes the best way to be helpful is to say no.

  18. Enescudoh*

    Thanks to all who gave me hope on this thread when I lost my job a month or so. I was so scared that after being fired no one would employ me again. I start the new job on Monday – one of four offers I had to choose between!!

  19. Murphy*

    My boss doesn’t tell me anything, sometimes to an absurd degree. Before the holidays, the #1 in our office retired and the #2 (grandboss) was promoted to #1. The #2 spot has been empty since then. Boss once aluded to “structural changes” and implied that my reporting line might change. I’m a team of one, so I’ve been shuffled around some, so they could really do anything with me. I’ve asked him about it twice, but he said nothing is official so he can’t tell me. I’ve stopped asking.

    I really dislike my job, in no small part due to my boss, so I’d actually be OK with a change. I’ve been looking at internal jobs, and this week I saw one that was an EA for [general unit I work in]. It’s listed as being an assistant to the [#2 vacant position]/[boss’s position]. The job description makes it sound like it would be supporting one person, so it’s confusing. I wouldn’t be surprised if my boss got promoted, and it’s honestly what I expect, but I don’t know what if anything they would do with me, or if someone would replace my boss or what. A few days after I saw this, boss emailed and said that he was “thinking about” hiring an EA to help with some stuff that we do. Another reason I’m unhappy with my job is that I don’t have enough work to do, so I’m somewhat baffled.

    Is there any good way to talk to him about any of these structural changes, etc. (I’ve tried talking to him about my frustrations with the job in general and those conversations have not been fruitful.)

    1. Junior Dev*

      I think you should ask whoever is in charge of hiring for the internal job who you’d be working for, if you think there’s a chance it would be current boss, and ask if that person is likely to change in the near future.

      1. Murphy*

        Oh, I think in my attempt to be brief I didn’t explain it right. I have no interest in the EA job. It just raises even more confusion for me about what’s happening with my boss and my unit.

        And also I can’t ask about that directly, since I can’t explain how I saw the job posting. (My boss’s email about possibly hiring did not make it sound like a posting was already out there, just that he was mulling over the idea.)

        1. Murphy*

          I would like to get out of my current job (ideally) or if my boss changed, my job might improve.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Well one day I had to ask my boss why his job showed up in my personal email from a recruiting site…
      He finally admitted that he got promoted and instead of hiring a replacement for a lower level, they hired a replacement for him and duties got shuffled around. This is all fine and good, but I was in the middle of doing the budget and this is stuff I actually need to know.
      I point blank asked him why I saw his job in my email box. Things have gotten a bit better overall–but he’s still weird about his stuff. like I’m not going to notice the nice raise he got while pro-rating me on mine.

      1. Murphy*

        I expect that when/if he’s promoted, I’ll receive the email that everybody gets about promotions like these and he won’t actually tell me.

  20. Vickie*

    Can there be a rule to never have meetings on Friday afternoons? Ugh. Hate heading into the weekend on a sour note.

    1. jack*

      A guy at my office scheduled a meeting at 3:00p on the Friday before Christmas, which was exactly when I was planning to leave

        1. jack*

          I did but ONLY because I knew it would be a 15-20 min affair. And I got him to push it up from 4pm when he originally wanted to do it.

    2. peachie*

      Seconded. I’d be okay with a blanket “no meetings before 10 or after 3” rule, to be honest.

      1. Jemima Bond*

        I concur.
        I was once invited to a meeting between twelve and two. When are people supposed to have lunch? Savages.

        1. jack*

          I commonly have that problem because I’m at the only location in my division on the west coast. So meeting are either way too early or at lunch :/

      2. Mr Shark*

        And no meetings between 12 and 1:30, so people can grab lunch!

        So just less meetings altogether would be good.

    3. Elizabeth Proctor*

      My husband’s office does this all the time. They have biweekly meetings on Friday from 2:30-4:30 or something. Ugh. And it’s the kind of office where people typically have flexibility to come and go as their work is complete as many people have off-site responsibilities, so he otherwise could leave around 4 or so. He takes a commuter train home, so is bound to that schedule–a 4:30 end time really means a 5:00 train.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Some of our higher ups are so overscheduled the only time you can get with them is Friday at 3, 4, etc. It’s super frustrating. It’s not really any one persons fault, we need a good culture revamp around meetings I think.

    5. Beth Jacobs*

      I think it’s also super annoying because I can’t immediately act on what was said in the meeting. I like to get started on whatever instructions arise from the meeting ASAP while it’s still fresh in my mind and at least make an outline, type up my notes and kinda generally figure out a plan for getting the assignment done. If I don’t have time to that after the meeting, I come in on Monday no longer remembering the details and it takes me much more time to get back into the project.

      1. JustaTech*

        Exactly this. My lab group used to meet Friday mornings (so marginally better) but there still wasn’t time to actually act on anything, and if you didn’t take good notes the chances of remembering what we’d talked about over the whole weekend were slim.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I was in Tokyo last year doing some software testing and training. My company had an office in Australia, so the plan was to do a training session while we were there, since the time zones were more aligned.

      I went to schedule the meeting, and the only time everyone was available was on Friday. I was intending to schedule it for 2 PM in Sydney. But I was using a loaner laptop, set to a time zone one hour behind where I live, and Tokyo is 15 hours ahead of us. Plus, Sydney is one hour ahead of Tokyo. So between all of that, I ended up scheduling the training session at 4:00 on Friday afternoon. I didn’t realize what I’d done until the training coordinator there asked something about the Webex meeting in an email, saying that a group of them were planning to dial into the session from a pub so they could have a beer while I went through the training. LOL!! At that point I realized what I’d done, and told her I’d reschedule, and to please let everyone in the office know that I’m really not the person who schedules meetings at 4:00 on Friday.

    7. Ms. Meow*

      There’s one person I work with who always schedules meetings for Friday afternoons because “that’s when everyone is free.” Yeah, no duh our calendars are open at that time. But that doesn’t mean you should fill our Friday afternoon with a meeting that ALWAYS runs over.

    8. Thing1*

      Ugh, yeah. We’re about to go on spring break (so close!) and someone scheduled a staff meeting that’s going to be really awkward and uncomfortable for this afternoon. Nobody is pleased.

    9. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I worked somewhere that had a mandatory team meeting on Fridays at 5:45 pm. The last express commuter train left around 6:45, and then trains ran local once an hour after that. So everyone who missed their train would have to wait until 7:30 and their commute would take twice as long. A few people just got PO’d and started walking out in time to catch their train.

      They went out of business a few months later.

    10. Elaine*

      Some companies do that. My company has a client that doesn’t permit any Friday meetings. So if we need to meet with anyone from there, it has to be another day.

  21. Junior Dev*

    I’m on my first day of medical leave. I am having both mental and physical health problems and dealing with them both while working was becoming impossible. I’m relieved to have been able to take time for my health–this is the first job I’ve been at long enough–but also kinda nervous about all the logistics and the fact that some bureaucract is going to judge whether my illness is real or not.

    Any positive stories of going on leave and having things work out for you?

    1. peachie*

      Yes! I went on medical leave for mental health reasons that also became physical health reasons, and I’m so, so glad I did. It was only two weeks for me, and it didn’t fix everything, but it was enough of a reset to be able to rest and get my doctor stuff/life stuff in order and come up with a plan on how to handle work when I had to go back. I think I would have lost my job if I hadn’t done it.

      1. Rezia*

        I took FMLA leave due to physical health problems (that were caused by mental health problems). I had been trying to stick it out at work while going through a ton of testing and doctor’s appointments and also having my entire diet rearranged. I finally talked to a mentor who told me that I sounded like I really needed a break, and to take advantage of FMLA.

        I did it in two parts – a week off + intermittent leave granted as needed for a 6 month period, which meant that if I needed take an hour off here or there because of a flare, it was proactively granted. The week off really helped me to reset and get my life back in order, and the intermittent leave made me feel so much better about calling out at the last minute and listening to what my body needed. I had been feeling so stressed before, worrying that my boss might think I was slacking or being irresponsible. Just the mindset switch from “informing my boss, because permission has already been granted” to “asking for permission and worrying what he was thinking” helped me a lot.

        The paperwork wasn’t too bad. My doctor was supportive so that helped a lot, and my company was large so I didn’t even know which HR bureaucrat at the other end was judging me.

        1. Rezia*

          Oops just realize that I switched the to/from. Should be the mindset switch TO “informing my boss, because permission has already been granted” FROM “asking for permission and worrying what he was thinking” helped me a lot.

      2. Junior Dev*

        Did you do anything in particular to deal with the mental health stuff (therapy, starting meds, etc.) while on leave, or was taking a break enough?

        1. Rezia*

          Just speaking for myself, what I needed most at that time was to sleep and sort out what I could and couldn’t eat. Finding a therapist was something I looked into and got totally overwhelmed by (I’m in the US, insurance doesn’t cover a lot of this). Later on I did find a therapist and that has been really great — would recommend — but it wasn’t something I did in my time off, and in retrospect I think that would have been trying to do too much in that time.

          1. peachie*

            I had to do the food thing, too! My depression was very weird and mostly physical and I lost the ability to eat when it was at its worst — not (just) the “I can’t deal with food logistics,” but, like, “I am sobbing at my kitchen counter because I am trying to eat a sandwich and physically can’t.” I think during my leave, I found a recipe for these weird little peanut butter cookie-dough-ish balls that I could sneak a lot of protein into, and that was (possibly literally) a lifesaver.

        2. peachie*

          I am seeing this so late, but yeah, I found a (new) therapist at that time. I’d already been seeing a psychiatrist but had broke up with my therapist a while before because she didn’t know what to do with me. The new therapist was, for me, more of a “life planning” thing — I mainly wanted to find someone who could help me figure out ways I could get by and not lose my job.

    2. Middle Manager*

      I had some extended medical treatment a few years back and was out six weeks. Since there were a bunch of people at that job with the same responsibilities, it wasn’t too bad and I think overall the break was important enough to my health that it benefited everyone in the end.

      In my current role I’m the only one doing my stuff and that makes it scarier. I worry if I ever need to leave for a long time again. But at the end of the day, you need your health to do your job, even if it’s temporarily challenging for you and your employer.

      Really hope things go okay for you!

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I once went out on leave due to stress compounded by a terrible supervisor. I think it was 6 weeks or so.

      I may have answered a few work related phone calls in the first few days. A week or two in, supervisor leaves a voicemail, asks when I’ll be turning in my laptop & cell. Luckily, I had the presence of mind to immediately contact HR and say, “Gee, it doesn’t seem to make sense to turn in my work equipment if I’ll be back soon. Why would she ask that?”

      Supervisor no longer contacted me during my leave. I was so relieved.

      1. Long Time Fed*

        Our organization makes people leave their laptop and phone when they are out on extended medical leave, under the premise that you aren’t allowed to be doing work so you shouldn’t have the equipment with you.

        I think people have complained in the past about people reaching out for work related things.

    4. Karen from Finance*

      I took 3 months of leave for Hodgkin’s Lymphoma, to go through chemo.( In my country, employers cover your leave in these cases, and I think the state helps cover some of the costs).

      I actually finished the treatment a little bit earlier than I anticipated, but they allowed me to finish my leave up to my original planned date, so I had a couple weeks to recover emotionally from the whole thing.

      Good luck!

    5. PicoSignal*

      I’ve been on medical leave several times for a chronic condition, ranging in length from 1-14 weeks. In one job I was fully supported; HR and my superiors handled things professionally and legally. Every time I returned to work, I picked up right where I left off and things went fairly smoothly. If it would work in your situation, I highly recommend a couple of extra meetings with your superior when you return to ensure that you aren’t overwhelmed by a backlog of work. Managing expectations and, moreover, communicating to my superior the extent of the backlog, was critical to success.
      In my experience, most co-workers and superiors were helpful and touchingly concerned when I have returned to work. Some of my co-workers even participated in a meal train for my family during my leaves!
      In the interest of full disclosure, here’s my other experience: in the other job, I was encouraged by my boss to quit “for my health.” I declined multiple times and HR backed me up when I expressed concern about her behavior. Interactions with this boss upon my return were unpleasant, but then again, working for her had never been pleasant. I don’t think my leave was the cause of our problems, and this former boss is now under state and federal investigation for misconduct (beyond an EEOC-level investigation.) So I put more weight on the former experience.

    6. designbot*

      Yep. I actually found myself in the ER *just* before FMLA would have kicked in for me at this job. I was in terrible pain and had no fracking clue what was going on, and nobody was really able to tell me. I was terrified not only about what was happening to me, but that if I got through it I might not have a job to go back to. I was in the ER insisting that my husband call my job and he’s like “that’s not really what’s important right now…” thankfully, he was right. Everyone was very understanding. I took a few weeks at that time, then seriously dialed back my hours (like I went from working 60 hours a week to 38–40) for the next six months, which culminated in another 3 week leave for the surgery that thankfully ended the whole saga.
      Even though part of this happened when I wasn’t even eligible for FMLA, my office couldn’t have been better about it. Even my most notoriously demanding client immediately forgot two deadlines when they heard I was in the hospital, without once asking for more details. Even when I tole my HR manager that the paperwork would say that this happened because I was an alcoholic, that’s not actually the case and I’m exploring with my medical team what the real cause might have been, they were amazingly cool with it all. Best of luck to you, I hope you get what you need to be well.

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      Don’t worry about the logistics. Your doctor has likely filled out the necessary paperwork a thousand times and knows what needs to be put in there. It’s a little stressful, but just let everyone do what they do and don’t let that worry stress you out more and take away from the healing time you need right now.

      I’ve gone on leave twice and had no issues whatsoever. The doctor and I discussed when I would come back, he told the company that was when I would be able to come back, and the company accepted it. I mean, it depends a little bit on what your situation is, of course. But your doctor diagnosed you. The people managing your leave at your company won’t contest the diagnosis (unless you’re talking about an on the job injury, which is a whole different situation).

    8. Ox*

      Fun story! One of my coworkers disclosed a mental health issue to her manager, so her manager went to HR to find out what her options were. Our company’s HR told her she either had to take leave (via FMLA) OR go on a performance improvement plan, at the end of which she could be terminated. Yes, you read that right—she either HAD to go on leave, even though this was not something she or her doctor requested, or possibly get fired. I also believe HR didn’t inform her that she could get pay for this period using our short-term disability

      1. Ox*

        Whoops, accidentally hit “submit” before I was finished typing! So she fought with them and got paid and her leave was great and everything, but the whole process was nonsense because HR clearly didn’t know what they were doing.

  22. Dragoning*

    I’m feeling undervalued at my job.

    Not by my management, strangely enough–they all seem to like me and find my contributions valuable and necessary.

    In my department, we have three people who perform basically my same role–some of our side tasks are a bit different, but our core job is the same.

    And they…seem to wonder why I’m even here, at times. I’m the youngest and newest of us by a fair amount, although a part-timer filled my role before I was here, and before that I think there may have been someone else–not sure. I’m also the only contractor, as they’ve both been made full employees of the company well before I was even here.

    Because of this, I have to take a month furlough later this month, and while my managers are all slightly tense bout it, my coworkers are like “whatever there, used to only be two of us, it’ll be fine.”

    “Heck, there used to only be one of us and it was fine.”

    It’s just frustrating, to hear that to them I basically not be employed and everything would be the same.

    Not sure what to do about it, though. Not much I can do but vent here.

    1. Dragoning*

      I should probably mention–there are more of us now than there used to be because we have a lot more to do. One of these coworkers has also made almost a point to mention in meetings with our grandboss, while she was evaluating headcount and my contract was coming up for renewal, that we had our workload easily in hand and it felt strongly like she was hinting we didn’t need so many people.

      They’ve told me repeatedly to keep looking for a new job, and I know I’m a contractor, but…yikes?

      Yikes.

        1. Earthwalker*

          Yeah, sounds like territorialism: your presence suggests that someone thought they weren’t getting enough done and they’re taking their resentment about that out on you. In which case, it’s not about you, if that’s any consolation.

        2. Tangerine dreamer*

          Erosion of responsibility. The FTers are worried that they will be seen as doing non essential work, and that work can be farmed out to contractors rather than FT staff. And also that the work is be re-graded, so that they will be seen as workers whose job grades are higher than the level of work they are doing.

      2. sub rosa for this*

        Keep in mind that they have to encourage you to look for another job.

        I had one of these “contract breaks” recently. I knew they wanted/needed me back at the end of the break, and badly — but they had to go through the formalities, and encouraging me to find a full-time gig (with promises of great references) was part of that.

        Knowing that they can get by for a month, rather than replacing you right away with another contractor — that might be a good thing. :)

        1. Dragoning*

          They can’t refer me. They’re peers in all hierarchies.

          None of my management has encouraged me to look for a new job, and this has come up in conversation since I started here, and pretty much never in context with my furlough.

          1. Dragoning*

            (Also, furlough here is….well, every time one of my coworkers has had to take one since I started, even with no formal promise of contract renewal, their things were all left in their cube untouched, nameplate and all. The one person who wasn’t renewed in my time here had her things packed up well after the fact and given to her).

    2. sunshyne84*

      Yea it sounds like they are phasing out the contractor position. I would take that time to start looking elsewhere.

      1. Dragoning*

        They’ve been saying this for two years, and they have no knowledge or authority over anything. My management is all quite happy with me and has never indicated anything less than excitement to have my back after my furlough, and concern about the workload when I won’t be there.

        1. Dragoning*

          (last two times they’ve extend my contract, they’ve tried to extend it for longer than they were able to–and they tried to extend it through my furlough. I don’t think they’re getting rid of me).

          1. Tangerine dreamer*

            Keep in mind the FTers are headcount. Contractors are business expenses. One is a drain on the dept budget, the other is a tax write off.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I wouldn’t read too much into the “used to be fewer and we were fine” comments. I think that is very sustainable for a short period of time (a month or so), and they are likely just trying to ease your stress about it.

      Your addendum, though . . . can you talk to someone with some actual authority to find out where they see your position going?

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      My sympathies. This is slightly bewildering to me, because I was hired in a team that used to be 7, then downsized to 3 (due to losing a massive contract), then one person left so it was just two (both of us newbies! panic!) but steadily our team got new contracts that equalled the size of that one massive one the team had lost a year prior. We were begging for a third person to help us out. When the workload kept increasing we did make a great two-person team who gelled so a third would’ve disrupted the dynamic BUT we would have easily adjusted to get some of the work off our backs. When you have less on your plate, you can focus on doing it better, instead of being swamped and possibly making some mistakes due to it. I can’t wrap my head around them wanting to get rid of you.

      I would hope the management understands the work needs 3 people, so the team needs 3 people. But if the two people lobby hard it just might happen, unfortunately. So I second the suggestion of starting looking, unless your company has other teams they could put you in. At least in my company, unless you wanna leave, they would hate to lose a person who knows the ropes, and would rather put you in a different office.

  23. peachie*

    I just got called into my boss’s office for a “shut the door, let’s discuss your performance” conversation, which made me VERY nervous, but… I got a raise! I’ve only been here a year and they pretty much never give raises, so I am extremely surprised, but, yay! It’s a very technical role and I’m coming from a self-taught-but-zero-actual-experience background, and I never expected to be doing this well.

    3. T3k*

      Congrats! Those are the nice conversations to have (just hearing that first line would have also made my anxiety suddenly spike through the roof there, but glad it was good news!)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hope this helps you to build more confidence in your skills. Being self-taught can be extremely fulfilling. Congratulations, I’m glad you were recognized for your contributions!

  24. S*

    Any tips (or just good mojo) for starting a job search when you’ve been comfy in a corporate job for almost a decade, you’re not sure exactly what you’re looking for, but you just need to GROW?

    1. Ali G*

      Just start reading job ads. Research into other companies you might be interested in working for and see what they have available.
      If you aren’t sure what you want to do, start by making a list of things you do want in your new job (this could be anything from more autonomy to a casual dress code) and what you know you don’t want (long commute, or being a manager). Then when you are reading job ads, you can evaluate them based on your preferences.

    2. irene adler*

      Talk with folks in your field and find out about what they do/suggest you do. Find and join a professional organization in your industry with a chapter near you. This is a good source of people to talk to, a networking avenue, and a good starting place for reference material to learn about types of jobs out there.

      Read the job ads -everywhere you can find them. This can give you some ideas.

      1. S*

        love your name!

        Thanks to both of you. Job listings give me stomach aches, but I’ll start looking.

        1. Junior Dev*

          Maybe trying to look at one a day with no intention of applying would be good, so that when you do apply you’ll be a little more used to them.

    3. Ama*

      Another approach to this would be to think through what you absolutely DON’T want in your next job (this could be actual job tasks or things like a long commute, amount of business travel, etc.) . I was in a similar position to you a few years ago, and my “dealbreaker” list made it a lot easier to weed through job listings.

    4. Jess*

      I second the suggestion to read job ads. And not just in your field. When I’ve been out of work, one of the most helpful things has been to skim the craigslist jobs and volunteer listings and see what pops out — what categories, what specific jobs, etc. For instance, a signmaker job caught my eye. Nothing I’d ever thought about doing, but noticing my interest helped me figure out what sort of things I’d been missing in my previous work. Another time I saw an ad for an afterschool job working with kids… I wasn’t qualified, but I realized I missed being around kids and reached out to them about volunteering, which was fun in itself and eventually led to a job for a while. Bookmark or print out whatever catches your eye one day, without intention or expectation that you will apply to ANY of them. Then go back a day or two later and dive into those a little further, see what still appeals, what feels like a pipe dream, what feels like golden handcuffs, etc etc.

  25. Toxic waste*

    My boss was talking about tattoos and she just randomly lifted her shirt and showed us hers. Held her shirt up and just kept talking. My coworker and I didn’t know what to say or do. Omg. That is all.

      1. valentine*

        Next time she’s in the room when anyone says “tattoo”, do a full-body cringe and hold something up to block her from view.

    2. Amber Rose*

      My boss and coworker had a conversation about brazilians (waxing, not nationality) which kind of morphed into a conversation about sex toy preferences. And coworker did lift her shirt to show me her tattoo.

      I’m not easily phased, but it was a bit much all at once.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Just another day at the office. *sigh*
          It was the waxing talk that was worst. The idea of being naked around strangers is deeply horrifying to me.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I had to listen to (“had to”– the door was open and they were right behind me) a conversation about bikini waxes between my VP and Director. It was so horrifying. The detail they went into!

        A co-worker of mine once stood in front of my desk and stretched his arms, and in doing so, his shirt rode up and exposed his stomach and he didn’t even notice or care. I NOTICED AND I CARED. It was not fun.

        1. personalshopper*

          Ewww. An old boss was in the habit of adjusting his crotch while talking to me about my next assignment. Ugggggggh.

    3. Karen from Finance*

      Where exactly are her tatoos? Are we talking mid-abdomen, or did she lift it all the way up to near her bra?

        1. ElspethGC*

          Yeah, I’d be happy to untuck my shirt a little to show something just above the waistband, and equally would be not too fazed by someone else doing that (although I recognise that plenty of people would see that as too far) but if it’s one of those rib tattoos that are right under the band of the bra, that’s *definitely* too far in pretty much all formal situations.

    4. Epsilon Delta*

      Gah, That is super awkward! My coworkers at my old job were super over-sharers and I don’t think they would ever have gone that far!

    5. Nanc*

      And now I have Allman Brothers “I’m No Angel” stuck in my head– Oh come on baby. Come and let me show you my tattoo–which does not in any way help your situation but isn’t the worst earworm to have . . .

    6. just trying to help*

      That can’t be all! What was the tattoo of and how big or expansive was it? Inquiring minds and all that…

    8. some dude*

      Oh god, that reminds me of being at a party a million years ago and talking to a friend of a friend who was sitting next to her big burly and somewhat possessive boyfriend. We got into tattoos and she had something that snaked around her body and she held up her shirt and skirt to show me. It was one of the more uncomfortable moments of my life. Luckily the boyfriend didn’t beat me up.

    9. Piano Girl*

      My husband, the Drama teacher, had a student several years ago who emailed him a picture of her tramp stamp. She had no idea that doing that could cause him problems.
      Sigh….

  26. jobhunter2*

    i’ve applied for about 15 jobs in the past 6 weeks and haven’t heard back from anyone yet :( i’ve been using this site a lot to refine my cover letter/resume and i think they’re pretty good (and i think i have fairly good judgment about this stuff) so i’m just disappointed and confused. i’m hoping the places i’m looking at are just moving slowly. i’m also trying to transition from a corporate position to a nonprofit position, so maybe that’s holding me back as well. oh well.

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      That sucks! I’m guessing it’s probably a tough market in your field and area? That said, have you had a second pair of eyes look over your resume :) ? I’ve found that can help.

      But most importantly, six weeks isn’t that long in the grand scheme of things. I know it sucks right now, but something will come through.

      1. jobhunter2*

        thank you! yeah, i’m trying to keep the time frame in perspective. maybe i’ll shoot it over to a friend who writes professionally.

      2. Hopeful Jobhunter*

        I experienced a few months of not getting any interview invitations. In January I decided to follow the targeted resume advice where I adjust my resume for each job. I focus on changing my summary on the top to align to my experience related to the job and different applications ands skills, such as LexisNexis for legal jobs.

        Since this change, I’ve been receiving weekly phone or in-person interview invitatations. That advice might be a good idea because it can work.

    2. Lupin Lady*

      Feel better! I was in a similar boat around Christmas – I had put out around 15/20 quality applications to jobs, and it took 5 or 6 weeks for me to hear back for the first interview – but I landed a great job out of it, it just took some time.

      It happened to me, it can happen to you! Good hiring processes often take time, try not to get discouraged.

    3. jonquil*

      Nonprofits, in my experience, move soooooooooo sloooooooowly with hiring. So slowly. I guarantee some of the first jobs you applied for haven’t even gotten around to reading all the resumes they’ve received. It’s the worst. Hang in there!

  27. Dotty*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to handle missing out on a promotion?I just missed out on a high level internal vacancy – a role I was incredibly excited about. I prepped really well, and got good feedback but ultimately came second. Now I have to be managed by the successful candidate – someone I get on fine with as a colleague but uninspired by as a boss. There’s no other roles at this level so I’m at the top of where I can go now, but I don’t want to leave (not yet at least).

    1. Middle Manager*

      I was on the other side of that a few years back. I got the promotion and my friend/co-worker felt passed over (she’s older and felt it was “hers” from the moment the vacancy came open so she was really disappointed).

      From the other side, I would say that I hope you give the new person a shot. They haven’t had a chance to be the boss yet and if you start out on a terrible foot it will make things harder for both of you. And it’s hard, but I would try really hard not to let the disappointment take over and shift your attitude. The co-worker who felt passed over in my case has really damaged her reputation with the leadership in our company and probably shot herself in the foot for future promotions because of how she reacted. I think she would have had a really solid shot at the next opening if she had handled it better, but I’ve heard senior management make comments since that lead me to believe she’d closed those doors now.

    2. just trying to help*

      This sucks. I have been in similar situations – twice. I was passed over for promotions a long time ago, and then had to train the person they promoted. Very frustrating.
      My advice would be to keep looking around for other opportunities and hone your skills to go deeper into expertise for your current role. Look outside as well. Good luck.

    3. Marthooh*

      Think about what you need to do to get a good reference from your new manager, and concentrate on that. If your next step up has to be to another company, you have to start planning to leave, and it’s best to leave on good terms.

  28. If your job was a movie tagline what would it be?*

    A bit of fun for a Friday – if your job had a movie tagline what would it be?

    I give people a lot of disappointing news about getting into university, so mine would be “nobody gets into this job to be the good cop”.

    And now you!

    1. Amber Rose*

      My favorite catch phrase since I was a little kid has always been “let’s get dangerous.”

      But my job is the exact opposite. So I guess it’s more like “You can’t fix stupid.”

    13. Elizabeth West*

      “In a world where style guides rule . . . where subject matter experts mangle grammar . . . where content controls lurk on every page . . . she’s the only one who can maintain the document repository. They call her—The Reviser!”

    15. Karen from Finance*

      “We need to put a new system in place for this”

      and

      “In order to perform that level of analysis, I’m going to need that level of raw data”.

    19. The New Wanderer*

      Queen of the Zombie Projects

      The Idea That Wouldn’t Die

      Maybe this time, they’ll get it right…

    21. bunniferous*

      “it’s not what you see but what you smell that gets to you.”
      (I sell foreclosures.)

    22. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      “She finds the lines in the sand (and clay, and gravel, and…).

      And then she destroys them (by carefully excavating and recording them).”

  29. Zona the Great*

    The thread this week about the over-thanking in emails got me thinking about the opposite issue I have with someone in my office: the over-you’re-welcomer. I first noticed it when boss took me around to meet everyone on my first day. I am introduced to Jane who says, “Hi, how are you?” and I say, “fine thanks!” and before I could reciprocate, she blurted out, “You Are Welcome” not even a “you’re”. It was odd but I moved on.

    But still she says it all.the.time. If someone has a Thanks in their signature line, her sign off will be, “You Are Welcome – Jane”. When a customer emails a question or request, Jane will always sign off with, “You Are Welcome” and it just sounds snotty or passive aggressive because it’s out of the norm. We were displaced and reassigned during the government shut down and afterwards, Executive Director brings us into a meeting and says Thank You to us for being flexible. We all begin to say Thank You for reassigning us and Jane just shouts out, “You Are Welcome”. It was so odd.

    No question, really. Just wanted to share the weird.

    2. Rainy Days*

      It does sound a little odd, but more like a personal quirk? I read the posts on autism/ADHD in the workplace from earlier this week, (such amazing info and insights, thank you to all that posted!) perhaps this person falls on the spectrum and is doing their best to conform to social norms but the execution is a little clumsy by neurotypical standards.

  30. anonymsaurus*

    Help me navigate my notice period? I got a new job (hooray!). I’m in a director level position and offered a 4 week notice. A big part of why I’m leaving is a lack of communication/support from the exec. level. I’m about 10 days in and no one has asked what I’m working on/what work needs to be re-distributed. I’ve proactively provided a list of things that need to be addressed. I want to leave things in a good place but I’ve got a super full month of already planned work and quite honestly no capacity to do any transition documentation in the last week. I am the only FT person in my department, and as an exempt employee work an average of 55 hours a week to keep everything moving. No one has communicated any transition expectations with me. Is this normal?

    1. kbeers0su*

      Wow. So either they have their heads in the sand or they’re making plans regarding your transition and just not looping you in. The best you can do is your best. You say you’re the only FT person in your department- can you at least make sure that the other folks in your area know where things are/how you’re leaving things when you do go? I’d probably try to divvy them up (assuming you have a few people)- Person A gets info on B, C, and D; Person E gets info on F, G, and H, etc. My biggest concern is your position is not wanting to be hunted down by this place once you leave and they suddenly realize they need answers/information. So it’ll probably actually work out in your favor if you try to work that stuff out.

    2. Librarian person*

      I think normal really depends on your company, and you’ve already noted the communication and support issues in your current job. Honestly, I’d do what you can and what makes YOU feel good about leaving and don’t worry about any of their unspoken expectations or needs. If they can’t be bothered to care about the transition, why should you be?

  31. Alldogsarepuppies*

    On dating apps that list companies I am finding a lot of people that work for one of my companies bigger clients. If the dude isn’t one of our contacts is it safe to right swipe, or is that professional faux-paux.

    2. sunshyne84*

      Do you have your company listed? You wouldn’t be meeting them about work so I suppose it’s fine, just awkward.

      1. Alldogsarepuppies*

        My parent company. We are both huge organizations, so its very likely he (generic he) doesn’t know about my company or that we work with their company. Think my company bakes chocolate, but only a small part of this company makes chocolate teapot, and most wouldn’t think of where the chocolate comes from – but I may not know if they do.

  32. Moving to Australia*

    Hello, any expats or people who have imigrated due to work?
    I currently live in the USA, my husband just got a job offer in Melbourne, Australia. Anyone have any advice or resources we should know about? We know they are going to do the Visa process for us. It looks like I will be able to work on my Visa. I’m not sure if I should apply to jobs now or once we get there. Any advice? I know this is the work related thread so I’ll probably post tomorrow as well for the personal side of moving countries.

    1. Willow*

      I have friends who moved from the US to Sydney a decade ago. One thing to know is that everything is a lot more expensive there, so keep that in mind when you get job offers.

      1. Moving to Australia*

        Thanks! We’ve been looking at things as percentage to income and it’s actually better then what we pay here. Everything is more expensive, but the pay rate is better as well. At least for my husband’s job. Compared to his American offers, rent is a much lower percentage of income and rent is the main complaint.

    2. Anon Anon Anon*

      Done that move. They use CV’s instead of resumes there, at least in my field. Do whatever you can to learn about CV norms in your field in Melbourne.

      I have good friends in Australia and family from there. The culture is more different from the U.S. than it seems at face value. It will probably take some time to get used to, and you may offended people without realizing it for a while. Americans tend to notice at first that it’s politically progressive, urban and secular. Compared to the U.S., a lot of people live in one of the major cities, and fewer people practice a religion. Some of the norms about things like sex and using profanity seem progressive by American standards. But it is culturally more traditional that the U.S. in some ways, and that isn’t always obvious at first. I don’t want to go into too much detail because I am American and Australians reading this might disagree. Just be aware that there are a lot of unspoken cultural norms despite the fact that most people aren’t going to church (which seems odd to Americans because we tend to get our norms from our religion or have a more anything-goes approach to things). People are understanding if you’re a foreigner, but once you’ve settled in, you’ll be expected to act more like everyone else. The other stuff is easier to look up – local vocabulary, how to order coffee, driving on the other side of the road, etc.

      But Melbourne is such a fun and beautiful city! You can’t have a bad time there. I wish I was there right now!

    3. Existentialista*

      I did the same move, although it was back in 1992, and I’ve been back Stateside since 2007.

      There are many similarities, which makes the move seem easy, but the differences can run deep. The biggest two I found, which you probably won’t experience until you’ve been there for 6-12 months and are starting to form closer relationships:

      – Disagreement with something you say is not a negative comment on you as a person. I had some friends who would directly argue against things I said, even on sensitive topics like politics, and at first I would fold and take back my statement and try to be more agreeable, but then someone told me that they were actually testing the strength of my resolve and the courage of my convictions, so it worked much better to stand my ground and argue back.

      – Teasing is a gesture of friendship. I had a friend once leave a dinner in tears, thinking she was being bullied, when actually she was at last being welcomed in to a group of friends. But don’t try to do it back at first, because it’s difficult to get the tone right and not be mean.

      All the best! It’s a wonderful place to live.

      1. Sammie*

        This makes me think of my parents. The Irish sense of humour is similar to the Aussie one. My American mother fell in love with my Irish father because of his amazing sense of fun. But then she moved to Ireland and it was very different when EVERYONE was practicing the whole ‘verbal abuse as affection’ thing. While driving home from a dinner party one night, my mother told my father that if anyone ever talked to her the way he talked to his friends (and they talked to him) she would consider them enemies!

        It did take her a while to get used to and, rather unfortunately for me growing up there, I caught a lot of her earnestness and sensitivity. Now she gives back as good as she gets (as do I, when I’m visiting), but she described that time as ‘technically we all spoke the same language but really we were from different planets’.

      2. Moving to Australia*

        Thank you! Those are definitely good to keep in mind. The first one I don’t think I’ll have too much of a problem with. My parents immigrated to the USA from Southern Africa. That’s a good way of phrasing. I was raised to politely disagree. There’s no need to argue, but to state your opinions. I still remember being shocked by friends who would agree with my mom, and turn around and say the opposite as soon as she left the room. To them that was polite, to me, that was lying. It will still be an adjustment to have that more constantly.
        The teasing is good to know about ahead of time.
        Thanks so much for your comments!

    4. Melbourne local*

      I moved to Melbourne 6 years ago, and I just love it here. Such a beautiful city, loads of things happening all the time, amazing arts and culture vibe, and awesome public transport. I did buy a car but I only drive to see friends in the country once a month (yes, the car was a waste of money).

      Re applying for jobs – don’t do it until you’re based here. I have been on both sides (CV submitter and CV reviewer) and everyone overseas is immediately put in the NO pile. If you have a local address and a local phone number (you can buy virtual mobile numbers here and I’m happy to give a recommendation if you want) then you might have luck applying while you’re still in the US.

      I would also advise you to get started on the red tape stuff before you’re here – you can open a bank account from overseas, and you’ll need to have a TFN (tax file number), and all Australians get paid mandatory superannuation (basically, forced retirement savings) so you’ll need to research and find a good Super provider.

      Speaking of Super, when you’re negotiating your salary make sure you know whether the salary is “inclusive” or “plus”. Super is currently 9.5%, so if you’re offered, say, $80k, “inclusive” means you’ll receive c. $73,000 (before tax) and the other $7k will be paid to your Super account. If that $80k is “plus” it means you’ll receive $80k (before tax) and $7.6k super will be paid to your Super account.

      Other than that, most of Alison’t normal advice applies – stand out with a great cover letter, have a chronological CV (from most recent job) with accomplishments not tasks. Slight difference is a minimum 2 page CV, but no more than 3 pages. Thank you follow ups are definitely not normal here, but every time I’ve received one it certainly hasn’t gone against the candidate, so follow your gut here.

      Good luck with the move. Melbourne is so awesome, I can’t recommend it highly enough!

      1. Moving to Australia*

        Its good to hear about car vs public transportation. We keep reading that Melbourne has great public transportation, but our current location supposedly does too and we would really struggle without a car here. We will keep that in mind and probably wait a while before buying a car if we do. Just a question, how do most people transfer larger items that you buy without a car? such as furniture. Do most places have delivery services or do people rent cars or trucks?

        If you can quickly give a virtual phone number recommendation I would appreciate it, but if it requires research don’t worry about it. I’m not sure at what point we will have an address to give.

        Appreciate the CV advice. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond!

    5. M*

      Melbourne born and bred here!

      This is a really minor one, but totally threw a friend of mine when he moved over here. Australians tend to say “nah, yeah” and “yeah, nah” quite a lot in answer to questions. It’s the *second* of the contradictory answers that is the one that’s answering your question. In certain contexts, they’ll also be used to express agreement/disagreement with a statement/argument/opinion. “yeah, nah”, roughly translated, basically means “yes, we’re on the same page, the answer is no”. “nah, yeah” is a lot harder to fully translate, and has shifting contextual implications when used in response to a statement rather than a question, but is essentially expressing agreement with a conclusion with an underlying (implicitly mutual) rejection of something rejected to reach that conclusion.

      For an American: you’ll find the statutory and union-based protections for workers a lot stronger here than you’re used to. This may matter when calculating the salary you want (e.g. 20 days annual leave is a minimum standard, as is 10 days paid sick/carer’s leave) – as will the existence of universal government-funded healthcare.

      While offices will have the *official* hierarchies you’re used to, we tend to have a cultural aversion to formality and demanded authority. This tends to translate into a greater expectation that junior staff will speak their minds/engage with more senior staff as equals – and a real lack of patience for staff who treat others differently depending on their position within a hierarchy. Being rude is still not on, but what it *means* to be rude is subtly different, and it may take some time to fully get across the implications of that in a workplace context.

      This has particular implications for low-level swearing in the workplace (expected) and the kind of workplace conversation norms. Humour and sarcasm are very standard, rah-rah pep talks tend to be seen as weird and try-hard. Religion is a private matter to be talked about in roughly the way you would your knitting club (“oh, I had a lovely brunch with my church friends this weekend” = fine, “you should come along to a service sometime!” = nope unless someone’s expressed explicit interest in doing so already, “I think [subject of conversation] is a sin, you should all repent” = a trip to HR).

      Melbourne’s a pretty centralised city (getting better re: suburban hubs, but still a long way to go). That means living somewhere convenient for getting to work is going to *really* matter, and it’s worth spending more on where you live to make that happen. Rush hour traffic is genuinely bad for commuting from the suburbs to the city, so living fairly close in if that’s where your working is worth it. We also tend to rely on public transport more than most Americans will be used to, so take that into account when planning commutes – it’s extremely nice public transport, by American standards – and deciding whether you even want/need to buy a car.

      1. Moving to Australia*

        Thank you! Yeah, no is a statement I’m familiar with, the other way around would take me a bit to parse. so that’s good to know.
        Good to know about the unions. My husband has been given a salary and told the union is working to increase it. He is in academia so he is researching what exactly is negotiable.

        The workplace culture information is great, thanks. Definitely will help and we will keep that in mind.

        Spending more to live closer is a decision we have made on our current location. Especially with public transportation, we will probably make the same decision in Melbourne. It really good to hear everyone’s opinion of public transportation.

        1. M*

          Oh, if you’re planning locations and commutes around one of you working in academia, I can give more specific advice for that, given there’s a limited number of universities! The overarching problem to keep in mind is that Melbourne’s train network is a set of spokes around the city centre – there’s a planned loop line in the mid-suburbs, but it’s only in the early planning stages. That means if you’re working around needing to public-transport commute to somewhere other than the city centre, you’ll want to be on the “right” train line for doing that, or you’ll be going all the way into the city to go back out – or relying on buses to “hop” between lines.

          Melbourne, RMIT and the ACU all have most of their buildings located just outside the city centre, and have a real lack of parking – your husband would be very reliant on public transport commutes for any of them. Swinburne is literally next to a train station, and so while driving is more possible, it’s also not really necessary so long as you can find somewhere you like along the Belgrave/Lilydale line or the local tram routes. Victoria University is a bit of a walk from its local train station, but not beyond the scope of what is reasonable for a commuter trip.

          Monash is a more in-between case, in large part because of the number of campuses – the main campus (Clayton) is reasonably accessible by public transport, but it’s both less convenient, and less functionally necessary (parking is expensive, but available). For the very closest suburbs to Clayton, the rental accommodation leans heavily towards student share houses, so that’s worth taking into account. Caulfield is the other larger campus (and, like Swinburne, right next to a train station) and Parkville is right in the city centre, but the Peninsula and Berwick campuses are… questionably even in Melbourne – you’d want a car for either of them.

          Deakin is inconvenient to reach by public transport from anywhere bar the surrounding suburbs along its tram line and bus routes (which are quite nice, and generally have reasonable public transport connections in their own right – Deakin’s roughly equidistant between two train lines, so if you go north or south-east from it, you’re pretty conveniently located). Latrobe has much the same problem, with the added difficulty of being much more towards the outskirts of the city.

          (Obviously, only one of those is going to be the information that’s relevant to you, but easy enough to type out for such a small set of options!)

          1. Moving to Australia*

            Thank you! That is super helpful! That gives us a much better idea of the public transportation! I really appreciate that time and effort!

    6. Jaded*

      Go in with a sense of humour, particularly be prepared to laugh at yourself for not knowing simple things – like what the area code is, or having to read bank notes to figure out how much they are worth. And don’t put pressure on yourself with your expectations to love it immediately, or to make it your forever-home. Just take the view that you’ll have as much fun as you can while you’re there – whether that’s for 6 months or 60 years. Good luck, enjoy :)

  33. Salary History*

    Question about California’s (and other states) recent-ish laws about not asking for salary history.
    I am applying to an office in a city and state that does NOT have a salary history law, but the company’s headquarters are in CA – what laws overrule? HQ laws for all offices, or local laws for local offices?

    1. Not Me*

      Local laws for local offices. Otherwise no business would be headquartered in CA, IL, or NY.

    2. Lisa B*

      It depends- some companies may institute a HQ laws for all offices.

      But either way I would lead with “oh, here in California there’s actually a law regarding companies asking. The salary range I’m targeting for this new job is $X-$Y.” Be matter of fact about it and move right along, and they probably won’t press you. If they do, I would still defer. “My current salary is for a different role at a different company, so I’d rather focus on the range I’m looking for here. Is $X-$Y in line with your targets?”

  34. GIGI*

    I don’t think this is common practice or anything, but I’ve come across a few of those twitter posts that are basically the digital equivalent of standing on the street with a ‘looking for work’ sign. Mostly young people it appears, the ones frustrated with the ‘need experience to get experience’ cycle.

    Now a couple of these were RT’d by some high profile accounts and got traction, but I wonder if it’ll get to the point where it’s just another gimmick people use to circumvent the usual hiring processes.

      1. The Original K.*

        There was a ton of that after the mass Buzzfeed & HuffPost layoffs a few weeks ago; my Twitter feed was full of folks who had just lost their jobs (and really JUST lost them, like that day) announcing that they were looking for work.

        1. ElspethGC*

          The BuzzFeed layoffs were pretty shocking. I don’t go on the site but I have a soft spot for some of the video series(es?), and the comments were full of people talking about it. Some of the people they laid off were very popular creators, so I’ve no idea how they decided that this or that particular person had to go when they brought in so many views of the “I see _, I click” sort. I suspect that some of them would meet with quite a bit of success if they job-searched on Twitter, honestly.

          1. Batgirl*

            Yeah that’s the other reason. News outlets cover firms who lay off an masse – except when it’s happening in their own house. That’s when journalists do it for them, completely in line with an industry norm.

      2. Batgirl*

        Journalist roles arent advertised and get snapped up very quickly and informally. Its been an industry norm for years to get jobs through friends and to give a crew-wide shout out when you’re looking.

        Nowadays a journalists entire portfolio is online so it makes sense to shout out to those who may only know you by reputation.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I would say that there’s no particular reason that one shouldn’t “circumvent the usual hiring processes” — seeing as so many of them are broken and impersonal.

      Journalists do this … and it makes total sense, because they have a following of colleagues and other audiences … and can let folks know what’s up. If someone already appreciates their work, then it’s a helpful heads up that they’re available and interested in talking about new opportunities.

      It’s just one other way of networking with people in your social circles.

    3. Junior Dev*

      I see this a lot in software, and it often works because 1) we’re hiring a lot and 2) job ads are often written by, and resumes often screened by, people who don’t understand the technical requirements at all. So having someone talk to you who can understand that it’s reasonable to apply to a job wanting 4 years of Python experience when you instead have 3 years of Ruby experience (or whatever) can be a legitimate advantage, for reasons that have nothing to do with favoritism.

      1. Junior Dev*

        In other words, bypassing the recuiter is a legitimate thing to do when the recruiter doesn’t understand the skills required, and you have those skills but don’t have signifiers like a CS degree or a history at an “impressive” company.

    5. Moonbeam Malone*

      I feel like this is very field-dependent, probably? I see it a lot in animation and game design, and it’s not really out of touch in those fields, since people do sometimes recruit talent from Twitter. (It also alerts their network that they’re looking, and people can pass leads along to them.) You’d still have to go through the normal hiring process, of course.

      I think there are other fields where this would probably seem super weird. I’m not likely to gain any traction tweeting that I’d like an Office Manager position.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        Yeah, I was going to say that I saw a lot of this when Activision/Blizzard laid off a TON of people a couple weeks back. But these were largely people with portfolios to link, too.

  35. Scott M.*

    I’ve been at my job for 30 years. While I haven’t been promoted in years (I haven’t asked to be), it is an I.T. job so its constantly changing (I’m not getting stale).
    If I were to leave do you think that staying so long would be an issue with getting hired elsewhere? What have others experienced?

    1. Coffee Bean*

      Not an issue at all – you can explain that your job was constantly changing which provided your room to learn and grow, and you valued that enough to stay. Now you are looking to move on, that is fine.

      I don’t think staying too long is really ever seen as a bad thing. Could be wrong though.

    2. irene adler*

      It’s been a problem for me. Been looking for 4 years now.

      First, unless you started that job when you were 5, you are probably pushing 50. Age discrimination is real. I’ve encountered all sorts of situations where the interviewer tries to find out how old I am. One guy even sang 1970’s songs to me and asked me to guess the artists. As I was able to answer, there was no further interest in my application. Others ask when I graduated from college. The conversation usually ends right after I give them the year. During interviews, out of nowhere I’m asked about various skills not listed in the job description. And am told these skills are essential to the job. Hence, I am out of the running for the job.

      Emphasize the most current skill set you possess. Don’t list archaic skills unless asked for in the job description.

      I’ve been told that not having a new job every 5-8 years means I lack the ability to adapt to new situations. That’s a big negative. Still wondering how to combat this one. I have earned several (recent) certificates, volunteered and networked but that’s not good enough.

      Suggestions: instead of indicating the dates of employment (i.e. 1990-present) put “15+ years of experience”. Don’t put the dates when you received your degrees, certificates etc. unless they are recent (last 5-10 years). Don’t put everything on the resume- just the skills relevant to the job.

      Be open to jobs with a smaller salary. Or no benefits. That’s what I’m looking at. Not pretty.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Seconding this! Age discrimination is so very real. I’ve removed the date of my undergrad degree, as well as my oldest, first professional job, from my resume. If people do the math on what’s left, I might appear 5-10 years younger than I actually am, but there’s no actual falsehood on the document.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I went back to school and finished my degree in 2016. I won’t lie, that was an advantage that factored into my decision to return.

        2. Wishing You Well*

          Yup, I’ve heard you list your degree, but DON’T list the year.
          Best of luck to job seekers who are older…and younger!

  36. dorothy_parker*

    So it’s international women’s day and my company always makes all the women in the office do a group photo with something purple which I kind of hate. I’m especially annoyed this year bc a celebrity that’s affiliated with our organization was accused of sexual assault and harassment and my company initially scrubbed him from our site but has quietly let him remain associated with us and a lot of senior leadership have maintained personal relationships with him. I’m mostly just mad that we have to do this photo but I see photos of our CEO on social media spending time with this jerk. **He was “cleared” after an investigation was done by his employer without actually speaking with the accuser.

  37. Workforce re-entry?*

    I recently became a stay-at-home parent after 10 years in the workforce, and plan to be out for about 5 years. What have other Parents’s experiences been on how difficult it is to re-enter the workforce? I was at the management level, but plan to try to re-enter at the Sr individual contributed level, since I think I’d enjoy that more. I really don’t want to have to freelance or try to work part-time during this period, but am nervous about such a large gap on my resume, even though my previous work experience is considered highly desirable.

    1. OtterB*

      Is your field something you could use as a volunteer to keep your hand in a little? Or, can you take an occasional course or attend a seminar on “new topics in What You Do”?

      1. OP*

        My industry (Digital media) moves a little too fast for coursework to be hugely relevant unfortunately. But volunteer work is an option, if I have child care options towards the end of my time home.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      I know you say you don’t want to freelance or work part-time, but I’d suggest you at least consider it once your child is around 2-3. if you opt to put your child into daycare/mother’s day out a couple of days a week, as a lot of parents do, that would free up some time for you to work and enable you to keep your skills fresh, network, etc. making a future transition back to full-time work that much easier. Without knowing your industry, if it’s reasonable to leave at the mgmt. level and return at the senior contributor level and your industry isn’t changing at light speed, then I think it’s entirely reasonable to say that you took time off to stay at home with your child to explain the 5 year gap. While I’ve personally never gone this route, I’ve known a couple of ladies who did. Both were willing to take a “step down” the ladder and one went down one level and one went down 2 levels, but neither had a hard time finding employment.

      1. OP*

        That’s good to hear that you know folks who didn’t have too many challenges getting back into the workforce! While there were things I enjoyed about management, there was enough I didn’t enjoy to think the Sr route might be best next time. That is a good point that towards the end of my time home I might have more flexibility. What I want to avoid is working around the clock trying to do all the things.

    3. Lisa B*

      Do you have a current manager that you have a particularly good relationship with? If you can find someone in your network that would be willing to get together and “talk shop” once or twice a year, that will help when you’re ready to come back. That person might think of you for a role they’ve got or be able to sell you up within their own network. If you CAN make that work, I’d do it without bringing your kiddo along, so the persona you bring to the meeting is more Jane, who’s a great professional colleague, and not Jane, who’s a stay-at-home-parent.

      1. Workforce re-entry?*

        I did, but part of what went into the decision to stay home was a cross country move, so unfortunately I’m far from the network I had built. :/ I definitely think it’s a good idea to stay in touch with what’s going on in my industry.

    4. Red Lipstick and a Book*

      Can you focus on just one or a few processes/skills of your profession and use them in a volunteer position from time to time?
      I know that digital media can be many things but how about helping out your local animal shelter / school /retirement home with a campaign for an event/fundraiser on social media or designing a new flyer for them? In an ideal case this would even let you say your skills ‘boosted attendance with 25%’ or something similar.
      If you are following blogs of well-established professionals, that can help you stay on top of new technologies. What I see in my surroundings is that this requires more planning than people originally expect.
      So if volunteering is not an option, make sure you regularly schedule reading up on the novelties and trends.
      All the best with your new challenge.

    5. KX*

      I was out of the workforce for ten years. For the first four or five, I had pretty steady freelancing work for Big Name Companies in the same industry. Then, a lot of long-term volunteer work for non-profits, doing somewhat adjacent work and leadership stuff. After about a full year of hard looking I stepped back into a different in the same industry but at a Big Industry Leader company—where my friend was able to navigate my resume. After two years in that position I felt like I had resumed my career and could start branching out/exploring new responsibilities.

      I maybe stayed out too long. A spouse’s job loss is what prompted/amped up my return to full time work. I was lucky to land where I did, because it was a chill location with a lot of intangible benefits, but… I stayed out too long.

      1. OP*

        Thank you for sharing your experience!! It really helps to hear from someone whose done it already. If you think you stayed out too long, how long do you think would have worked better for you?

      2. KX*

        I had two kids under two, and it got harder and harder to do freelance work. I burned out. I should have done fewer projects at once and spun it out longer.

        I am sick sometimes when I think about all the lost income. But, there is nothing for that now, and my life has not been bad.

        I volunteered as a board member for the parent teacher group for five years. It was a high functioning group and I learned that I could do unexpected things. I helped start another nonprofit in the community. It was hard to leverage that to the return to work, and if I didn’t have a friend at Big Company when I went back I don’t know what would have happened. But all that nonprofit work gave me more insight about myself and what I liked to do and what I was good at, and I think if I hadn’t done it I would be floundering around right now like a new grad trying to find myself. And I am pretty old to be in that position. So I re-entered with a lot of perspective and new experiences I don’t think I would have had. But… if I hadn’t had that friend… It was risky to wait five years after that last freelance project ended.

  38. Anon anony*

    Boss’s son works here and is lazy- doesn’t go to meetings, has attitude, flirts with all of the young interns and dates coworkers. I don’t have to interact with him luckily, but when I do I just get attitude or he doesn’t respond. How do I deal with this?

    1. Auntie Social*

      I’d interact less and email more. Then you can be a little more formal (“need a draft of this by the 15th”) and also be able to send second requests when he ignores the first one. And you can blind copy whoever you need to.

    2. L. S. Cooper*

      I don’t have good advice, but I do have a story.
      My dad can be a little mouthy– not in a bad way, he’s just pretty outspoken when he sees something being done poorly. He’s got a lot of value on integrity.
      He has been fired once, in his entire life. His boss (Bob) had hired Bob’s son (Chad) to do IT and some testing at Dad’s company, and Chad was tragically completely unqualified. Now, I’ve worked with Dad since, along with other interns, and Dad has the patience of a goddamn saint– as long as you’re really trying and aren’t rude.
      After Dad called Chad on it enough times (Dad’s a software engineer and knows what he’s doing), Bob called him into his office and told Dad to pack up his desk and go home, because he was just being too ~mean~ by pointing out how bad Bob was at his work. This was a Tuesday.
      Dad had already given notice and was leaving on Friday, with a new job lined up. Boss gave him a very long weekend.
      (And Dad sounded almost proud of himself when he came to pick me up from school that afternoon.)

  39. El Camino*

    Hey all! Posting this on behalf of my dad. TLDR: he’s really struggling at a new job that he found after essentially being laid off without severance from his last job and his confidence is pretty shaken. Lots of thoughtful commenters around here so any advice or words of encouragement is much appreciated!

    He’s been at the new job for about 6 months and is absolutely miserable. He got this current job after his last employer basically let him go by telling him they had to put him on temporary leave b/c of budget problems, with no callback date. He found out some months later after bumping into an old coworker that he was the only person at that company to be put “on leave” even though he was told at the time he’d be one of several, and ex-company never told anyone that he’d been let go – his former coworkers just assumed he’d taken voluntary leave of absence or quit on his own. He felt lucky finding this new job in the same field and with a similar title pretty quickly, but it’s way different than he expected – and either he isn’t getting support from his supervisor or is too stubborn to ask for help, I can’t tell. To say he feels overwhelmed is an understatement – he’s taking home work every weekend, stays late and since the commute is long he doesn’t get home til 10 pm most nights only to leave at 6 am the next day, etc. He sounds depressed when I call, says he’s never felt like this at any job he’s ever had, and all the stress is taking a toll on him physically and mentally – he looked…not great the last time I visited. Between the way the last company treated him, and now working with a lot of folks fresh out of college I guess he feels like the proverbial old dog you can’t teach new tricks to.

    He knows ultimately he’ll have to leave. But part of what’s keeping him there is that he feels kinda lost – he doesn’t have a degree or certificates, and feels his 30+ years of technical experience isn’t anything specialized/marketable, which he thinks hurts him if he decides to switch fields. He’s also concerned that being 55+ will be a factor, and currently his is the only source of income & health insurance between my parents b/c my mom had a pretty serious health scare a while back. She’s healthy now (thankfully), and applying for part-time work but so far, no dice.

    Any advice, words of wisdom, encouragement I can share with him? Coping methods while he looks for something else? My mom and I are at a loss of what else to tell him, other than offering to look over his resume, help him look online for other jobs closer to home even if it means a pay cut. I know at the end of the day, it’s on him to change things but he’s my dad and I love him…and therefore hate seeing him like this.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I mean, the best anyone can do in this situation is to look for other jobs, and apply for them on weekends. It’s hard, especially when you’re tired and stressed from a current job that’s a bad situation.
      I don’t mean to sugar coat it, but yes, being 55+ will make his job search difficult. But it’s not impossible. You can also consider a temp/contract or bridge job.

      Current job: Not sure what exactly the issue is and why it’s not working out? Is it a bad place/bad boss, or is there something he’s truly not able to learn? There is a learning curve to be expected for ANY new job, regardless of having held a similar job previously. Sometimes you just have to cut yourself a break and say it will take some time and know you won’t be an expert in everything at NewJob from day one. Part of coping is also working a reasonable schedule and getting proper rest. Because the more tired you are, the more stressed and fearful you become, and so it’s easy to end up in a self-fulfilling failure loop.

      1. El Camino*

        Very true, the sleep thing especially!

        He’s used to being a field guy – think construction or electrical stuff with some administrative tasks, maybe 25-30% of his time. Now it’s more like 45% being in the field, 55% administrative (with more advanced TPS report procedures, for instance) for multiple projects and he’s struggling to balance it all – either he didn’t fully understand the role when he came on board, or they’re using a “sink or swim” approach to see how he handles it and it’s not going well. And I think he feels embarrassed that he is struggling when everyone else seems to be fine with the workload – seems like that’s the culture, 60+ hour weeks and all. Tbh I think it’s just a case of being a bad fit for him and a job better suited for someone with an engineering degree.

        He brought up stopping by a career counseling agency that helped him during the recession, so we’re encouraging that.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          It’s hard to say if that’s just the way it always “is” at that company (too much work and not enough people) or if it’s one of those things that you get better at as time goes by?
          But either way, it doesn’t sound like the best fit, especially if he has a long commute on top of all of it. It sounds like he took the job out of desperation, and maybe didn’t ask enough questions about the work, the hours, etc. Understandable if you’ve not job hunted for a while.

          It sucks to get into these situations. I’ve been there myself. But unless they fire you (which could happen and you get unemployment) the best bet is to keep up the job search as though you didn’t get this job.

    2. OtterB*

      The things I can think of to suggest tend to require time, which it doesn’t sound like he has with her current working hours, but I toss them out anyway.

      Is there a community college? Maybe he could get a certificate in something related to what he currently does, but more marketable?

      Depends on where he is located, but here in the DC area there is a 40Plus organization that provides job search assistance and networking to people looking for jobs after the age of 40. My husband, an engineer, found that they weren’t terribly knowledgeable about technical jobs and resumes, but he still liked the networking and support of people in a similar position.

      2. El Camino*

        Oh wow 40Plus sounds like an excellent resource! They’re not in the DC metro unfortunately but that got me thinking of local organizations that might do similar work – thanks for the suggestion!

    3. Sam Foster*

      Misery can be cover for anxiety or depression. Suggest he talk to the Employee Assistance Program if his work has one or seek out a trained therapist through insurance. I did this and found out a LOT about myself and I’m pretty much in the same boat as your dad. Everything I learned is helping me a lot as I keep plugging away!

    4. TootsNYC*

      I wonder if there’s a job-hunting coach that he could turn to in order to help him strategize how to market those years of technical expertise.

      There’s so much bullshit out there in the job-coaching field, so I worry whether it’s possible to find someone good, but it might make him feel more hopeful!

      (though when he’d have time…)

      And the other thing that is SO tough is internalizing the “it’s not my life” idea. It’s so hard to see someone you love struggling or suffering. But yes, he has to be the one to deal with it.

      The other thing to do that might be valuable to him is to be the “place” where he doesn’t have to talk about his job, and he can just be Dad, and not “person struggling w/ work and job hunting.”

  40. in the file room*

    A success story:

    I was having an issue with my boss – she doesn’t get along well with one of my coworkers (the two of them are a whole other story…) and, when they disagreed, she was often coming to another coworker and myself to roll her eyes and complain about Coworker. Obviously, this made me really uncomfortable!

    So I asked myself what the advice would be if I wrote in. Then I sat down with Boss and told her that it was making me feel very awkward to be put in the middle like that. And she seemed to get it – said it would stop and that she knew she should just walk it off or something instead of complaining.

    I haven’t really had the chance to see if she carries it out in practice, but having the conversation was SUCH a relief. Thanks everyone – I could never have done it without all I’ve learned from this site!

      1. in the file room*

        Ha, thanks! I figure I can’t control the bad faith they both bring into their interactions with each other, but I can ask them not to extend it to me or expect me to take sides.

  41. FaintlyMacabre*

    Stories of weird/uncomfortable/funny last days at a job?

    This is my last day at this job. However, everyone seemed to think the previous Friday was my last day and when I came into work this Monday I got a lot of confused “Wasn’t Friday your last day?” I wasn’t expecting a party or anything, but a goodbye might have been nice… Also, if Friday had been my last day, my badge should have been cancelled- ex employees should not be allowed to waltz into the building!

    I checked to make sure I wrote the right date in my resignation letter. I did. I think it was the more than two weeks notice that confused them, but seriously, the brouhaha on Monday makes me glad I don’t have to deal with this dysfunction anymore!

    1. CheeryO*

      I had a pretty awkward last day at my last job. I had been asked to leave two days before my notice period was over (ouch), which made my last day the day of the annual holiday luncheon and Great Christmas Ham Giveaway (it was a VERY old-fashioned company). I was NOT offered a ham, and I ended up eating alone in my cube because people were treating me like I had the plague or something. A few people came over to say goodbye and wish me well, but all of the higher-ups (including my boss!) completely ignored me all day. I could not get out of there fast enough.

      2. Artemesia*

        I can believe it was awkward, but what kind of monsters didn’t even give you a ham? Yikes.

      3. FaintlyMacabre*

        Oh Christmas Ham, Oh Christmas Ham,
        How petty is thy absence!

        CheeryO’s employers were such jerks,
        I’m glad that for them she no longer works,

        Oh Christmas Ham, Oh Christmas Ham,
        How petty is thy absence!

    2. Overeducated*

      When I left my job last year, I had a joint good-bye party with a long-term intern. A day or so before the party, the intern decided not to take the other job she’d been offered so she could stay for the maximum amount of time possible, another 6 months or so. There was a giant cake with both of our names on it. She was definitely embarrassed. We were all like “don’t worry, it’s a party to celebrate that you’re staying now! Everybody likes parties!”

      1. Delta Delta*

        I had something sort of similar once. Someone left their position and their last day was also my birthday. We were going to do a combo goodbye/birthday party. That felt icky to me – I didn’t want to take away from the other person’s goodbye party because I knew she was having a rough time with some personal stuff and I thought the least I could do was let her have a nice moment for herself.

    3. T3k*

      So my last job was a short contract (6 months) and it’s exactly 6 months (so if you start on the 20, your last day is 6 months from there on the 20). This meant my last day fell during the middle of the week and, as I was sad my contract wasn’t being extended, I didn’t tell most people, just the ones in the same position (though others found out in other ways). This meant I didn’t tell the guys I shared an office with (about 5 of them). Well, me and some of the now former coworkers had already planned to meet for drinks/dinner later that week after my last day, and when the guy who took over my duties showed up, he mentioned that my former office mates were asking my boss (their supervisor as well) “Hey, T3k hasn’t been in the last few days” and so they had to fill them in that my contract had finished. Whoops.

    4. MissGirl*

      My work forgot to invite me to my own goodbye party. Luckily I was secure enough in my position there to know it was an oversight not a slight.

    5. Lisa B*

      Oh nooooo – that is terrible!

      I made the mistake of putting Jan 2 as my last day at Old Job. I wanted to get paid for the New Year’s holiday so I needed to work the day after. But since it was in the middle of the week, most people had taken the last few days off to have a nice long break. My boss was out, my second line boss was out, my closest colleague was out, my cube-mates were out…. I had an awkward “well, here’s my badge, guess I’ll be leaving now” with a manager I hardly ever worked with. It was a depressing send-off.

    6. MountainHire*

      My last day at my first Corporate World job- I had been an intern during college and then when I graduated I was offered a part-time job managing their website with another intern-to part-timer. Basically he did the back end coding and I did the front end layout and user experience. Almost a year into the position my boss let me know they didn’t have the budget to keep either of us on. Neither of us were too upset, he was going back to finish his degree and I was looking for full-time work. What was nice is my boss gave me a month’s notice and let me take days off work and still paid me for the time.

      Anyways, the awkward part: The company was launching their brand new app and holding a launch party the same day as our last day. It was hella awkward because we were both invited and this party was legit; they brought in free food trucks, a band, games, and had a bunch of swag giveaways. All for an app that provided free content and didn’t have plans to generate revenue, unlike, say, our customer facing website I had been running and said they didn’t have the budget to pay for. I didn’t even stay until the end of the day, I said goodbye to three people and left at 11am.

      Recently heard from a friend who still works there that they had a mass layoff of all the people who worked on the app and are now selling off all the land they own around their building to supplement revenue.

    7. Quinoa*

      My last job was a temp-to-hire gig that I was unexpectedly not hired for almost a month after my projected hire date. My counterpart in the office spent my entire last week telling me how hard my not being hired was going to be for HER.

    8. BB*

      I was a senior associate at a dysfunctional small law firm, had gotten an offer contingent on references for a much higher paying position at a medium sized law firm, and spent two weeks gritting my teeth and dealing with the chaos while waiting for the offer to become firm. Among the signs of dysfunction:

      * Managing partner was rarely in the office due to personal reasons, and had failed to bring in enough business to really keep the firm afloat over the past many months. His solution to this was to put tremendous pressure on the associates to meet impossible business development goals. Then, on the few occasions associates brought in clients, he turned them down or let them expire through neglect.

      * Despite Managing Partner’s work habits, everyone else had to be in the office from 9-5 exactly every day. Working from home cost PTO. This is extremely abnormal for attorneys, especially senior attorneys.

      * A junior associate was fired for ongoing performance issues the Sunday night before Christmas, by email.

      * Three employee paychecks bounced, then the next pay period, payroll was a week and a half late.

      So, my last day, a Friday, went as follows:

      * Arrive at office at 9 AM. Wait until 10 AM for Managing Partner to arrive.
      * Tell Managing Partner and Office Manager that I’m leaving. As expected, Managing Partner didn’t want me to stay around any longer than that last day.
      * Managing Partner tells me behind closed doors that he’s very sorry to see me go.
      * A few minutes later, Managing Partner asks about my PTO balance, which shows as negative 16 hours. That included 2 days when I worked from home with a gout attack and billed a total of 20 collected hours to our one non-contingency client, and Yom Kippur when he told me to take the religious holiday and not worry about it. He said he would take that time out of my last paycheck. When I argued with him about it, he told me “you’re a great attorney but you have a sh*tty attitude.”
      * A half hour later, while I’m cleaning out my office, he pops in to ask if I would stay if he gave me a title promotion to partner without a raise. I said no.
      * Later that day, we call all our joint clients to inform them that I’m leaving. For all the clients he originated, I politely say that I’ll contact them later to see if they’re interested in transferring.
      * The last client we call is the one I originated whom he’s never talked to before. He spends the call hard selling my client on staying with his firm.
      * I get my last paycheck on my way out the door. As promised, the 3 days of wrongfully debited PTO have been taken out.
      * To cap off the pettiness, as I’m leaving, Managing Partner demands that I return a piece of electronics a client gave me that I used to do some work.
      * The other attorneys had all gathered at a bar across the street to get drinks as a going-away get together. Managing Partner said he would be joining. I give the excuse that I have to go take care of my baby at home, and promptly call my best friend among my co-workers, explain that I can’t hang around and socialize with this guy.

  42. Lucky*

    Outsourcing this to the commentariat, especially those of you that work in corporate environments. What does respect in the workplace look like to you? How about disrespect? Looking across all work relationships – boss to direct report, colleagues on same team or cross-functional – and looking for real examples and anecdotes, big and small.

    Here’s a common example: I’m in Legal and my internal clients often forward a contract with a request that I “drop everything, this needs to be reviewed/approved ASAP” but I can see on the email chain that they received the contract a week or two earlier.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Respect: “Hey we’re doing this new thing in a few months, do you want to sit down and discuss processes and procedures?”

      Disrespect: “It’s not like doing your job takes up that much of your time. The program pretty much runs itself.”

      The first was from a manager that I really like. The second was from upper management, my grand-boss. He thinks that my program doesn’t require much work, and he also thinks my secondary responsibility, order entry, is a quick and easy thing, even though it takes up around 60% of my day/week.

    2. peachie*

      Yeah, with that last-minute stuff — I understand that it happens sometimes, but the attitude makes all the difference for me. I work with internal “clients” in a university (they don’t pay our department, but it’s a big enough place that they’re more like clients than coworkers) and last-minute requests with a hard deadline do come up. Some of the requestors acknowledge that what they want may not be possible, thank me for my time, and generally have an attitude of “I know this was inconvenient but I really appreciate you doing it.” Other times I get emails that are essentially “You need to do this. Why isn’t this done?? I am more important than you!” Guess whose projects I prioritize?

    3. LQ*

      Respect looks like honesty and directness to me. “So my boss wants me to spy on you for her. That’s bullshit.” “I have no idea how to make this work.” Trying for 2 months and 6 different ways and still trying some more.

      Disrespect looks like disingenuousness. It looks like not admitting to failure. It looks like someone above my pay grade demanding work above my pay grade that they themselves can’t do and haven’t done for the decades they’ve been here and then wanting to punish me for that. (That’s a “colleague” in another department.) Saying bad things about me in front of her staff, but never in front of my boss (who would devour this person alive for those things if she said it in front of him). Yelling about how bad my entire department is in front of a bunch of your staff when I’m the only person from my department in the room and you’re 5-6 levels above me in the Chain-O-Command.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Hot button issue for me right now.
      I have been feeling very disrespected by my GrandBoss who I still work with very closely. A huge change was coming that was going to directly impact my job and they didn’t tell or bring me in until the last minute and then completely disregarded my concerns and questions. Each and every one of them was valid (and 100% accurate) and we ended up with a big mess. He then proceeded to roll over and show his belly to upper mgt and comply with their messed up process that took several weeks to work through and will have to be manually adjusted for up to 5 years which takes several hours during a very busy time for my role. I’ve notified them repeatedly that I don’t have time for it but they refuse to take that or anything else off my plate at this time because 5 years ago I let them know I had bandwidth the end of each month so they gave me a very serious task with hard deadlines of mid-month.
      Another huge blowup happened with week and I worked my butt of for a sneer and a “are you almost done yet”. I might be here next week with a story of blowing up a metaphorical bridge with finger flags waving.

    5. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I’d treat them the same way a host at a nice restaurant would treat a demanding diner. “I need a table now!”

      You say:
      “That’s not possible. The turn around time for this type of document is x days.”
      They: “But it it now!”
      You:
      “I’m sorry. That’s not possible. It will be completed as soon as possible.”

      I’d worry less about respect and just make your response bland and boring as possible while not reordering your priorities unless instructed by your boss.

      You can also say:

      “I’m sorry we have a set list of priorities. Yours will be gotten to as soon as possible. I invite you to discuss with Boss further if you need an exception made otherwise I cannot deviate from my order of tasks.”

      1. Holly*

        I have to disagree with this Cheesesteak unless that’s the culture of OP’s specific organization – being a lawyer or paralegal is basically a service job – if your client needs it done, you have to do it.

    6. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

      We have a common mantra, if you will, in my working world, to the effect of: “It is not my problem that you failed to [submit your request/loop me in/whatever fits] in a timely manner”. I’m a buyer: people think I can just whip out a credit card (that I don’t actually have) and waltz to the nearest store and buy whatever they’re asking for. No can do. There are so many laws around procurement, and small business advantages and so many different methods of procurement and red tape and hoops to get through, this thing they thought I could buy in an hour down the street takes 2 weeks or more. It’s like “PEOPLE! I don’t make the rules! Do you really think this is easier on me than just buying it and getting you to shut the hell up?” But of course, can’t say that :) So I kindly explain that unfortunately the laws are what they are, and until they are changed I am required to follow them. And depending on the other person: whatever they are asking of me is not worth jail time. Obviously YMMV.

    7. DCGirl*

      This quote: Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person,” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority.” And sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say, “If you won’t respect me, I won’t respect you,” which means “If you don’t treat me like an authority, I won’t treat you like a person.” They think they’re being fair, and they’re not.

    8. CDM*

      I think, in the broadest terms, it comes down to listening vs: telling.

      If your boss, your direct report, if your colleague isn’t willing to listen to you when you have something to say, it’s clear that they don’t respect you. If they talk right over your attempt to make a point, or set things up organizationally so that you can’t even communicate with them, then they don’t respect you.

      You need to drop everything else and make this a priority vs: I apologize for my lateness in getting this to you, is it possible for you to get this done by x and is there anything further I can do to make this happen? and waiting for a response.

      At Old Job, our new CEO made it clear to everyone that he wasn’t concerned with the internal org, only with cultivating community connections, so he would only listening the COO and CFO. So when he incorrectly claimed our department was unprofitable in staff meetings, when our income was double our expenses, we had no way of knowing if he was being lied to, if numbers were being manipulated, or if he was “merely” careless, and no way to correct our record. We certainly didn’t feel respected.

      We had 30 FT and near FT staff, my tenure overlapped this CEOs by two years, we spoke three times. One of which he called me by the wrong name. I didn’t bother to correct him, because I knew he couldn’t have cared less who I was or what I did in the org.

      The week after the wrong name incident, at a gathering hosted by my husband’s company of about 200, the owner, the CEO and the COO greeted me by name, because they were all people who listened to and respected their employees and other people and fostered that culture throughout the company. At another annual gathering, the CEO brought one employee up to the podium, as they both shared how that employee was struggling in a particular position, and the talk the two of them had. CEO listening to the employee about why and how things weren’t working, and what did the employee think about the best way to shift gears and move forward. And together, they made changes, and a year later the employee was highly successful in the revamped position. Hugely powerful message, instead of punishing a failing employee, or waiting for him to find another job and leave, it was “how can we work together to make this relationship successful for both the employee and the org?”

      Current job made a business decision that resulted in a 10% pay cut combined with a 10% increase in hours for me. Management doesn’t want to hear that. I get cut off, told I’m not a team player and that other people who get paid much more than I do and who are permitted to work from home and work flexible hours (which I do not) also commute distances, so sit down and shut up. Similarly, boss asked the management if there was any way to meaningfully acknowledge that I’m working at a higher level than the other two staff in the same position, which was met with a tirade about how that manager isn’t responsible for supervising the other two and it’s not her fault that a peer excels at chit-chat and organizing cookie exchanges while half my workload is actually in the next job description above mine. Management is just going to shout their narrative of “everything’s fine so sit down and shut up” over anything we try to tell them, rather than listen.

      Even if there’s no way an org is going to do anything to correct a problem, listening to an employee and acknowledging that something is indeed a problem shows far more respect than drowning out their voices and steamrolling right over them.

    9. Respect My Time*

      A moment I realized a colleague did not respect me (and didn’t even realize they didn’t respect me) was when I recognized the following pattern:
      Colleague promises unreasonably short timeline to client
      Then comes to me and asks me how much time I need for my part (which would need to be followed some by a second person’s part, before colleague would be ready for his part)
      My estimate was longer than the time until colleague had promised it’d be delivered
      Colleague says “can you make it work? this is a really important sale for us and we already closed/booked flights/other crap”
      So I need to rush, which makes it more likely I’ll make a mistake, and work excessively long hours, which makes it more likely I’ll make a mistake, and so does a second person, all because colleague didn’t ASK FIRST how long it takes before making promises about how long it would take
      Colleague before during and after regularly thanks me and second person, tells us how much they appreciate and value our expertise and our working so hard and so long

      And that, frankly, was bullshit. If you respect my time and input and expertise, you wouldn’t put me in this position. You wouldn’t ask me to work double-time for weeks on end because of your failure to plan. You wouldn’t leave me no time to test and review and make sure what I’m producing is actually good.
      And you sure as hell don’t do it twice. If “please just make the exception for this one super important client” is the line you feed me every time you ask me for anything, then you don’t respect me.

      You respect my expertise and value the knowledge I have and you don’t? You respect my time. You don’t tell me you respect me. You have to actually do it and that comes through actions.

  43. Hatesbeingyelledat*

    Have you talked to a career counselor? My best friend is a lawyer and was feeling very similarly to what you are describing and she paid for a couple sessions with a career counselor-who I think also had a law degree-and the exercises he assigned really help her hone in on her skill set and how to apply it. She ultimately found a job in an adjacent area and while she is stressed trying to learn everything, I think she feels happier having made the transition.

    Best of luck, I too have had jobs that give me anxiety like you mention and its such a tough go.

  44. Bitter old owl*

    So just need to get this off my chest as I’m feeling pretty unappreciated at work.

    Not to go into specifics, but a big release is coming up soon for our company and, as such, we’re on the front lines to help with customers during that time. Now I get it, we’re going to busy, we need everyone on board, etc. (I’m talking about non-stop customers from the moment one clocks in until they clock out deal). That said, their automated scheduler system has really screwed me over. Despite supervisors telling us scheduling preference is given to top performers (and I’ve been told repeatedly I am a top performer) it keeps giving me an undesirable lunch time despite repeatedly trying to get it corrected, then during the big release drastically moved my shift to morning (when I applied and came on board the understanding was I started at noon) and while we have rotating shifts, it’s done so you still work 5 days each week with 2 days off somewhere. Except this time it has me working 7 days non-stop (everyone else I’ve talked to has at least one day off during this crazy time) and 1 day off before back to work. So needless to say I’m feeling pretty upset and frustrated and my supervisor says they can’t do anything about this. If I didn’t know any better I’d say they’re trying to push me out (sort of like how retail/fast food will start to schedule workers at times they clearly said they couldn’t work to have an excuse to fire them).

    At this point, the only good thing I can see is that one my college classes finished last week, so I just have to do 1 chapter’s reading each week now, but geesh. Needless to say I am starting up the job hunt again (I was hoping to continue sticking it out here until I finished this degree in a couple years or so, but this really frustrates me, and I already have a degree, just this one I’m working on now is aimed at what I want to do now). That said, I’ve decided instead of my normal drive where I quickly finish with one customer to move to the next, I’m just going to sit on them a few extra minutes because I can only see burning myself out doing this 7 days non-stop. I don’t care if my productivity goes down because obviously being a top-performer still means I get screwed over schedule wise.

    1. LCL*

      I would try one more time with the supervisor. Ask her to find out why the schedule program has scheduled you in this way. It sounds like it’s policy that she doesn’t have the authority to change it. She, and you, need to find a way to bring it to the attention of someone who does.

      1. Bitter old owl*

        Unfortunately because we do customer service, schedules are pretty much set 2 weeks ahead so it’s very difficult to change (essentially if you need a day off in there, you then need to find someone else to change shifts with you for that day). That said, I incidentally had quite a bit of vacation time built up that’s going to expire in a few months, so I might or might not have submitted for a small vacation soon after that. My supervisor would have to be very blind not to see why I requested that amount of time off xD

        1. Darren*

          Taking vacation after a particularly busy period is really expected, I’ve always done it with the mad dash to get everything done and bedded down, then taking a bit of time off to unwind and relax.

          1. valentine*

            Tell her you can only work x days with y days off between. (Also, how many hours on/off do you have? Do you have at least 11 hours off between shifts? Because you’d need more than eight consecutive hours’ sleep.) Wait and see what she says. Tell her the current schedule just isn’t something you can do. Raise any safety or other issues as well. What mistakes and disaster will crop up if you’re a zombie?

            Tell her whatever you need her to know about the vacation. If her not knowing will harm you, don’t assume she knows. I find that people are oblivious. No matter how glaringly obvious it is to you, remind her you need to use or lose, for example.

            1. valentine*

              Tell them you just can’t do mornings, that you were hired for noon and need to stick to that. (If they were reasonable, I’d say to offer 11:00, bit no. They’d probably expect you to be grateful they “pay” you in tokens and let you shop at the company store.) Don’t let them claim the robot is the one screwing you over. And the nonstop customers is also absolute BS. It’s inhuman. You need bathroom and refreshment breaks with little delay from the time your body prompts you.

  45. RandomU...*

    Any petty things irritating you in the workplace this week? I know I’m grumpy, but the soap in the bathroom about sent me over the edge this week.

    Small office and our office manager has been stocking the women’s bathroom with drugstore hand soap for the past 5 years. For some reason, she decided(?) not to do it last week. So the soap container was getting lower and lower and lower, finally I added water to it just so I could pump some out. We’ve had several office supply and drink orders come in the past two weeks, so I’m thinking surely she’ll just add on a soap order. Nope, never happened. So Tuesday I bring in an extra bottle of hand soap from home. I tried to use it and between being frozen and who knows what the pump didn’t work. I was late for a meeting and just left it in the bathroom to see if it was the freeze that was the problem.

    When I went later to the bathroom, someone had dumped the soap into the old container. Ok, works for me, simple solution… but!!!!!! They didn’t dump out the watery dregs from the old bottle before pouring in the new!!!

    Who does that?!? Now my nice hand soap that I begrudgingly donated because apparently someone doesn’t want to order is ruined by the yucky watery different colored cheap fragrance’d yucky soap that was in there.

    I told you it was petty… it’s been 4 days and every time I use it I want to throw it all away out of spite.

    1. JocelynX*

      Oh man, the women’s bathroom on my floor nearly had Soapocalypse earlier this year. Three sinks/soap dispensers but one has been broken for over six months and another was empty, so only the middle one had soap. A few of us kept putting maintenance requests in before finally @-ing the entire floor to try and get more people to do it too, because if that middle one went empty…

    2. peachie*

      Vending machine is constantly out of Diet Coke. Don’t make me go all the way downstairs for my diet coke!!

    3. epi*

      I feel your pain. The person who cleans this floor of my office regularly skips emptying/refilling at least one thing in the women’s room. Some days, we have had a cascade of stalls run out of toilet paper because everyone is now using just three stalls that weren’t refilled, then just the two… He also often does not refill the soap which is just gross. We have in-counter dispensers and it is like he doesn’t look under the counter every day. Once or twice, I pulled the empty bottle out and set it on the counter so it would be immediately obvious it needed to be replaced– and it still wasn’t.

      This is the most crowded floor of the building, probably majority women, and I just can’t figure out how it is allowed to go on. Except I can, because I also haven’t complained, myself. Everyone seems to like this guy so much! I feel like the one Grinch on my floor who thinks this situation is unacceptable.

      1. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

        epi, I used to handle janitorial contracts. Caveat, I’m in state government, so lots of laws and whatnot around every contract anyway. But if the person who is in charge of the contract doesn’t know it’s an issue, s/he can’t fix it. I can’t tell you how many times I heard from someone “I’ve absolutely HAD it with these people! They never do X, Y, Z, and hardly ever bother with A or B!” Well…now that you’ve told me, I can do something about it! Usually it’s not a problem at all. I would literally just use the walkie-talkie to let the janitorial people know, and they’d take care of it immediately. Obviously, YMMV, but definitely let someone know. You’re not the Grinch for wanting to have access to the restroom facilities that are presumably there for that very reason!

        Also, as the contract officer, it makes us look bad to our supervisors when our contractors aren’t doing right. So letting him/her know doesn’t have to be a terrible thing at all. Just a quick “Hey, not sure if you’ve already heard, but we’ve been having this issue come up a few times lately. Not trying to get anyone in trouble at all, but we really do need toilet paper in all of our stalls since there are so many of us using it on that floor.” And, in my world, problem solved that day. If you know the person in charge of contracts isn’t really reliable for following up with things, I’d advise you to say “I’ll be happy to follow up with you in [a few days, a week, whatever] to let you know how it’s going.” And then do that.

    4. medium of ballpoint*

      I’ll jump on some pettiness that happens to be bathroom-related, too. My job is basically back-to-back meetings all day erryday and if I’m lucky I have 5-10 minutes in between them. There’s a bathroom right across the hall from my office, but it’s closed for cleaning every day immediately after lunch, when everyone needs it. I have to search the other floors to find a bathroom that’s open and I hate having to decide between foraging for an open bathroom and being late to a meeting.

      I also work with folks from all over the world and their bathroom habits can be odd. Folks will go in barefoot, they’ll have speakerphone conversations, they’ll watch Netflix, they’ll converse with people three stalls down from them. My kingdom for quiet, peaceful bathrooms again.

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        Cell phone conversations in the shared bathroom drive me nuts. It’s so rude and disrespectful, the phone must get so dirty with functions and unwashed hands, and it draws everyone into the meaningless conversation about dinner plans in the evening. Not to mention, when I hear the conversation I first think someone is talking to me. How embarrassing if I respond!

        I’m just one of those who wants to pee or poop in peace without talking.

      2. Katie*

        Speaking of timing – I like that our work bathrooms are cleaned on the regular, but the cleaning guy ALWAYS picks the worst times: beginning/end of work day, mid-morning/mid-afternoon break times, or at lunch. And even when I change up my bathroom times at random, like my habits are being watched! I work in a large building serving multiple government agencies. There are two bathrooms in one long hallway, sunk back in and you have to walk around a pillar (weirdly) to get to the door. If I choose the bathroom further from my office, inevitably I will walk the entire distance to find the closed signs placed directly in front of the door, not out in the hallway to preempt even walking down that far. Oh, and the absolute grossness of spare ends of TP rolls that I see on the floor under a toilet one day, and then conspicuously perched on top of the dispenser in the stall or on the hand-washing counter the next day. Sorry, if it’s already been on the floor, I’m NOT using it. Ugh.

      3. Up Hill-Yes, both ways!*

        Not to be repetitive, but please see what I wrote above to epi. I’ve had this issue come up (several times), and it’s never been an issue for me to tell them to simply clean that particular restroom an hour earlier or later. Just let the person handling the contract know about it. If you say something like “I obviously really appreciate that all the bathrooms are cleaned every day so well [if that part is true]. But I have noticed that the bathroom on X floor is closed every day around X time, and if there’s any way that schedule could be changed to maybe an hour earlier or an hour later, that would be so helpful to [me/the people on the floor/whatever fits].” A good contract officer will say no problem, I’ll see what I can do, and have a conversation about the route the janitorial people are taking. Every time I had it come up, it was fixed immediately. But I couldn’t fix it until I knew it was a problem.

        1. medium of ballpoint*

          Thanks, Up Hill! As silly as it sounds, I hadn’t thought about mentioning it to anyone.

    5. CatCat*

      We had no paper towels in the office kitchen/break room for about a month month. I brought my own and kept it in my office.

      The microwave really went downhill in that time. Not because people are jerks, but because there was literally nothing to wipe things up with in the kitchen.

    6. Overeducated*

      Printer issues. This week was my breaking point, I went from just trying to deal with our shared office printer constantly breaking down to actually complaining to my manager at multiple points about how it was adding tons of time to my work to troubleshoot different issues or walk to another division’s offices every day. (No, going paperless is not an option here.) It’s such a stupid reason to be unable to do my work!

      1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

        I often say that printers would be an amazing invention if they actually worked.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Oh printers…that gives me two grumps in one!
        The one in my old area used to have so many heavy users that it needed extra maintenance. Someone’s solution? A daily printout so we could give the tech advanced info of what supplies/tools to bring. Then the building got upgraded printers, including a double for us. Then departments were moved out, and we went to electronic review, and yet we couldn’t get that turned off. Since December that printer has served 3 people who use it infrequently –but it was still printing 2 daily confirmation sheets last time I went through.
        And the 3 men who use it are just shuffling through for their printouts without recycling the extras or even stacking them. It may be their passive-aggressive way of getting someone in admin to see the waste, but I suspect they just don’t think it’s their jobs. All 3 men used to ask me & my (female) co-workers about printer issues even after we all switched to replying that the troubleshooting instructions are posted right on the machine. They’re lab techs. If they can’t follow instructions on removing a paper jam they’re not qualified for their own jobs!

    7. Nanc*

      Gross disclosure–I don’t use the soap at work as I’m allergic to Sodium Laurel Sulfate (the stuff that makes suds!). I just wash my hands very well with running water. I’m also allergic to most hand sanitizers! Fun times.

      There’s a very slight chance your office manager doesn’t know the soap was out so it might be worth a mention.

      1. RandomU...*

        There’s only one women’s bathroom (small office). There is literally no way she missed the fact that we were running out of/ran out of soap.

        Honestly it grossed me out thinking about it, because I’m pretty sure I was the only one using the soap. I’m making myself feel better by thinking the rest used the hand sanitizer.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A former co-worker carried her purse with her every time she went to the john, even though we locked houses into our file cabinets. Turns out she carried her own soap with her for just that reason!

      3. Hamburke*

        My daughter has a similar problem with soap (although not sure it’s sls – we think it may be the antimicrobial)! She has soap in a tube (like a chapstick tube) in her bag that I bought from a soap seller who doesn’t use a lot of extras.

        We did find a hand sanitizer she can uses too – from whole foods… I was so glad when they were bought by Amazon – it’s a 40 min one way drive to whole foods in a direction I never go…

    8. Neosmom*

      One of my 3 bosses kept peppering me yesterday with questions about the same subject and wouldn’t contain them all in one email. He wouldn’t even let me respond before he sent a follow up with a different question on the same topic. At one point I threw up my hands and moaned, “I don’t know!” rather loudly. Then I sighed, hunkered down, and got the answers. It was the end of the day before I explained my outburst to the coworkers who overheard.

    9. Bluebell*

      I feel you! In my old office the facilities guy didn’t want to buy hand soap for the staff kitchen; he thought dish soap was enough. I decided to bring a bottle in every 2-3 months. It used to make me secretly happy, especially because I could choose the kind I wanted. (Nothing with a strong scent and always a pretty bottle.)

    10. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      Ah! I had a roommate do that. There was purple soap with some water added. Then my roommate added some orange soap without dumping the original soap. It ended up looking like there was a vomity foam layer on top and I couldn’t bear to look at it. So I bought more soap and dumped it – and told the roomie I’d buy the soap from then on to make it up to her for wasting the soap she spent money on (and also so that she wouldn’t do something like that again).

    11. JustaTech*

      For some reason someone in my building decided that the bathrooms (or at least the women’s bathrooms) would be stocked with Dial Gold soap. I hate Dial Gold with a passion. It’s harsh. It smells like an institution. And it used to have antibiotics in it, the kind that makes antibiotic resistant bacteria.
      Turns out everyone hates Dial Gold. So people were bringing in their own soap (because we stopped using the in-counter dispenser for some reason?) but that finally ran out.

      One day of Dial Gold and my hands were chapped to bits. So I very politely emailed the person I thought was in charge of soap to ask for something different.

      Turns out she’s not in charge of that, but she talked to whoever was and the next day there was better soap!

    12. B-anon*

      Our bathroom has a terrible design and there’s only soap and hand towels in one corner. So we all have to apologetically dance around each other to get what we need.

      The one good thing is that you can tell about 95% of us wash our hands with soap, which I’m sure is way higher than average. I’m almost convinced the poor bathroom design has worked as some weird bonding ritual.

    13. Middle School Teacher*

      One teacher keeps hitting reply all in the emails. I finally emailed him today and said “please don’t speak for me.” It’s possible report cards have killed me and I’m in hell….

    15. ello mate*

      You’re the one who put the water in there? And why don’t you just ask her to buy soap?

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Petty & icky….inconsistent wastebasket emptying. And there’s no big can where we can do our own unless we take it to the cafeteria or ‘canteen’.
      What really makes me feel petty is that I chat with one of the maintenance contractors and learned that they’re understaffed enough that if one person gets sick, they can’t cover the THREE buildings they handle. And their managers ignored requests for extra staff during his intermittent FMLA for chemo.
      So okay… I know why and I can live with 3 days of trash now & then…but they won’t change out the trash can in the restrooms to full sized ones so we can compensate. Argh.

  46. FinallyFriday*

    Any advice on dealing with people when emotions are high and everyone is snappy? Everyone at my company is stressed and overworked, and it’s causing people to become irritable and snap at each other.

    Because my team come in in the middle of two major process we’re on the receiving end of a lot of this and I’m sick and tired of being a punching bag. It doesn’t look like things are going to get better any time soon.

    1. RandomU...*

      This is my work right now too… for 3 more weeks.

      Usually I try to do something to take people out of things for a few minutes in a low impact way. I’ll do something like send an email with stupid/silly jokes and a subject line of ‘Not work – read when you need a break’

      I’ll tell a story of something stupid that I’ve done in the past week… (I’m usually doing some dumb things like locking myself out of my office in the middle of a conference call)

      In other words, lighten the mood sort of things.

    2. Nervous Accountant*

      If someone gets snappy or rude I try to think about the person’s past behavior and if this is normal of them to be snappy or uncharacteristic. It’s tax season for us and long hours + lack of sleep make us all a little crazy. Is your situation temporary with an end date in sight or ongoing?

    4. Brownie*

      Same here, my team is starting to dissolve into sniping and outright rebellion, at least until someone threatens us from outside the team, at which point we turn into a cohesive ball of stubborn rage focused at the offender. We find out next week if we get a new manager or if we’ll continue under the current one who’s the main source of the current stress and overwork.

      The only advice I can give is find some way of working off/letting go of the frustration somewhere outside of work, be it kickboxing, running, FPS video games, obscene needlepoint, iced cookie decoration, naps, or anything else that works for you. Letting it out at work is satisfying in the moment, but a very bad thing to do professionally no matter how tempting it is to tell a coworker to knock it off in very explicit words.

  47. Mellow cello*

    Does anyone have any advice about deciding whether to do overtime? I have a standard 40 hour a week job (average, sometimes it’s mixed it with night and weekend shifts) but there’s usually opportunity for overtime. The extra money is always nice but I worry about burning out – I like having a break and coming back to my main job refreshed.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      My only advice would be to look at your week as a whole when considering the overtime. If it’s a light social/personal load week with some added flexibility and you’d appreciate the cash, maybe take the extra shift or something.
      Also, can you just try it a couple of times and see how it impacts you and then if it’s a negative experience, don’t do it again?

    2. T3k*

      Adding onto what Tableau said, also consider how much of OT pay is worth it (remembering to count in the amount of taxes collected off of it). For example I did a day’s worth of OT once, but after taxes it only meant I got an extra $60 that week (it was a low paying job). So ask yourself if you have a cutoff point where if it means X or lower amount of extra money, it wouldn’t be worth it.

      1. Mellow cello*

        Weighing up the time vs money aspect is one big thing I’m still trying to figure out. I just came from a department where the after hours overtime was built into our regular roster and it meant that even though my total hours are the same, my pay dropped almost $2000 literally each fortnight. It was a big adjustment so I’m trying to figure out if I can arrange a compromise between feeling exhausted all the time vs feeling broke.

    3. Kathenus*

      For me it would matter the schedule of the OT. Staying after for a long shift – no problem. Working on a day off – I’d generally say no unless I really needed the money as having two days off really helps my mental recharging.

      1. Mellow cello*

        I’m the opposite – I don’t like working really long shifts because after a certain point (10 hours?), I can feel my productivity really slipping. That said, 1 day off can feel insufficient to recharge too.

    4. FinallyFriday*

      Just to add to what the other commenters have said, consider your company culture and if willingness to work overtime now will be seen as willingness to work overtime in the future.

      The burnout comes when you work overtime once and then again… and again… and again. And then there is suddenly an expectation that you’ll always work 50 hrs a week.

      1. Mellow cello*

        The organisation isn’t too bad. There’s zero expectation for overtime outside your specific role – you can do it once, never or always. I just noticed that the same people seem to volunteer consistently and wondered if I should too.

      1. Mellow cello*

        Hahaha, thanks! I’m an aspiring, very amateur cellist – started lessons last year after wanting to since high school. I’m loving it, though the neighbours might disagree ;)

        1. valentine*

          There’s someone who neighbors kindly by letting them make requests for two songs per practice session or the like.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Another good neighbor once asked about my baby’s nap schedule because their band was going to start practicing at their house regularly. College kids thinking to ask that… it earned them big points!

    6. BeeJiddy*

      I’d consider how it might affect your commute time – e.g. if working later means leaving at a peak or off-peak time which could increase or decrease your travel time. I used to have a job where if I worked even a little overtime my drive home would increase dramatically. It wasn’t worth it because it made me frustrated and tired, and also chewed through petrol.

      1. Mellow cello*

        The only commute issue is if I work a late shift that end after public transport ceases. Then I have to uber home. Overall I still come out ahead but it’s a consideration.

  48. Bobsicle*

    Any advice on coping with a bad performer on my team that we cannot get rid of at least not anytime soon?

    My role is that of a supervisor and I report to my boss with whom I work very closely (and get along well if that matters). I delegate work, hold feedback and/or check-in conversations, help write evaluation and recently became more involved with interviews.

    Both my boss and I are at our wits end about this person on our team. I am not going to get in to details but he is for lack of a better word, awful. Now, my boss’s boss & HR has blocked us from letting him go b/c we can’t afford to let anyone go.

    The issues have been present since they began. We addressed them many times;; casual converastions, serious conversations, write ups and MORE conversations. There is literally no way that eh does not know he will be terminated. At this point, all we do is document via email and bcc HR.

    I’ve read the posts here and I am aware of all the issues surrounding keeping a bad employee. We’ve been told that we can let him go right after and despite past history, I am VERY skeptical and losing faith in HR & our grand boss..

    He was actually doing better for a few weeks and thought maybe it was finally sinking in, but, no. He said some stupid shit to a client. I had to review his work product which had minor issues that could have easily been fixed. However, he refused to do the work, kept insisting that a different person should review it, and ignored clear instructions from me.

    -I like my job and my team otherwise, so pls no advice on looking for something else.

    -My manager and I are on the same page, so this isn’t his fault.

    -We’ve done everything right, and I am not bad at my job.

    I guess the purpose of my post here is to ask how to….detach? Maybe I am being too emotional about it.
    I am aware I am wasting a lot of headspace and energy on this; I nearly had what I think was a anxiety attack today but was able to stave it off (and now I hate that I let this one worker get to me like this).

    1. Middle Manager*

      Not really any suggestions- just condolences from someone stuck in a similar situation.

    2. Sophie before she was cool*

      No advice, but solidarity. I’m in a similar situation, and the stress/anxiety/emotional investment is definitely the worst part for me, too.

    3. WellRed*

      “There is literally no way that eh does not know he will be terminated.”
      But he’s not being terminated so why should he care? (I realize you say he will be eventually, but I am skeptical). Sorry you’re stuck in a powerless situation. I assume that you are also, in addition to all the documenting it, making it the big boss’s problem whenever possible?

      1. Bobsicle*

        Well based on my company’;s past history, we terminate after our busy season ends. 95% likely that this will happen, but I am still skeptical. People were let go for much much less transgressions.

        I was tempted to pair him with a problem client where it would have been like a match & lighter, but I decided against it for the good of everyone involved.

        I am not saying this to make light or poke fun — I’m just coming down frm my anxiety attack from this morning and am now venting.

        1. TootsNYC*

          but, if he knows he will be terminated once the busy season ends, then why should he do better?

          And speaking of busy seasons–I bet he’s a HUGE time drag.
          If he were gone, but not replaced, would your life be easier? I bet yet.
          If so, just stick him in a corner and let him read the newspaper until HR lets you fire him.
          Or give him stupid stuff to do that doesn’t really matter. Once a week check his work, tell him about error, write down his jerky response, and put all the papers in a stack.

          The rest of the time, ignore him.

      2. Bobsicle*

        I just honestly don’t understand how you can be in the workforce for 10+ years and behave in such an atrocious manner.

    4. Kathenus*

      Don’t make his problems your problems. Meaning, if he is doing bad work or leaving things undone, don’t do them for him to ‘make it work’. If he ignores your instructions, so be it, but let him (or the organization) deal with the consequences – don’t clean it up for him.

      Outside of that, like you said, try to detach. I know it’s easier said than done, but right now he’s got power over you in one way you can’t fully control (work product) and one way you can control (mental energy spent on him). Do what you can by documenting, not enabling, communicating as needed with the powers that be on issues, but then just really try to let go. It’s not hurting him at all if you are frustrated/upset/anxious, so that negative energy is only hurting you. Try to reduce his ability to impact you as much as possible by trying to recognize when it happens and consciously realizing that letting it bother you only hurts you and deliberately moving on to something else. It may take time to build the mental ‘muscle memory’ on this, but it will be worth it.

      2. B'Elanna*

        ^ This! Don’t make his problems your problems.
        I’ve dealt with this for years (currently looking to leave), and it helped me immensely when I realized I should stop cleaning their messes up, or bending over backward, for someone who won’t fix their own problems.
        I’m still responsible for documenting issues, so some mental energy is spent, but just the minimum needed.

    5. Not A Manager*

      What would you do if he were fired and they didn’t find a replacement for a long time? Could you function without him? Would you function better without him?

      If so, maybe do that passive-aggressive thing where you don’t fire him but you literally freeze him out? Take him off client-facing tasks, take him off anything where a mistake would be costly to you in terms of time and money. I’m not suggesting that you actively make him miserable, but just don’t allow him to do work that matters to you.

      If he pushes back or refuses, then don’t give him any work at all. He can come into the office and play on his phone all day.

      You can tell from my user name that I am Not A Manager, so maybe this is completely unacceptable for some reason. But if it were me, I’d think about putting him in permanent time-out.

      1. Bobsicle*

        TBH we would function very well, plus we actively hire more people all the time. Less stress all around.

        We’ve already taken him off work that involves building relationships with clients. 90% of our work is client facing to a degree. At bare minimum, we have him doing tax returns and discussing those returns with the clients. Literally the bare minimum he can do here, but even that he is doing such a bad job of it. (I.e. “Well call your congressperson, I can’t do anything for you.” or “I have 200 other clients to deal with, you’re not the only one.”).

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      SHUDDER it took us a year to get rid of someone whose work was slow & sloppy, even though we were a transfer-and-last-chance already. At one point our manager gave her a 1day assignment to make space in the middle file cabinets when we got another unit for the end. It took her 3 days, several “unsafe behavior” observations, and she badly mixed up number order. Not dyslexia… drugs. When she told a coworker she was high at work, that’s what finally got HR on our side.
      The way I lived through it? I made sure she did not release anything to customers that I didn’t see first. We sent her all training notes & assignments by email so we could REsend, we could redo if need be, and we all copied our manager for PIP documentation.
      Beyond that, well, she overshared. I sometimes consoled myself I had not made her bad choices.

  49. iMBA through UIUC*

    This post is for the person asking about Western Governor’s University MBA program who is looking to learn a MBA curriculum that isn’t $$$$$$. I was super late in answering that open thread last week and thought I would repost on this open thread –

    You can consider doing the iMBA program on Coursera in conjunction with UIUC. UIUC’s entire MBA curriculum (taught by their business school prof) is free on Coursera (so you don’t have to build your own). You can audit all their classes for free on Coursera, pay Coursera to get a cert if you want, take it for-credit (then you pay the university and there is an university component) or can enroll as a full degree grad student. I’m actually in their iMBA program. The program is super affordable ($22k), everything is done online and your degree is granted from UIUC (the same MBA degree you would get if you attended their brick and mortar program). I’m also learning everything “from scratch” (I work in healthcare on the clinical side) and have found the program to cover a wide-span of business topics. I’m almost halfway done with the program and really like it. I’m doing the program mostly for personal growth & checking a future box on job apps so I didn’t want to pay $$$$$. With some tuition reimbursement from work, it brings the entire program to <$15k for myself. Google: Illinois imba for more info. Feel free ask any additional questions!

  50. Shiny*

    Found out recently that there will likely be layoffs in the coming months at my current job–I’m not likely to be in the first round, but there’s a ton of uncertainty, and even the possibility of the whole place shutting down. We were likely to be closing in October anyway, but this moves up my internal timeline for job hunting.

    Trouble is, I’ve only been at this job for slightly over a year. The job before that was 9 months, because it was a terrible fit. I’ve sort of switched fields, and these were my two full time, permanent jobs in this field–my past experience is relevant, but not direct, and other direct experiences are all short-term consulting gigs.

    Thoughts on what this means for me as a job hopper and how I can frame this? If it helps, I’m mid-level in my career, have some highly in demand skills in my field, but also fill a somewhat niche role, and it’s a competitive field. Thanks!

    1. Been there*

      FWIW, I think that attitudes toward shorter tenures in jobs are changing. I was at my first job for 3 years, then had jobs of 11 months, 11 months, and 1.5 years because of 3 different layoffs. (Dot-com bubble, 9/11, and a startup that failed to get bought out as planned). In total, I’ve been layed off 5 times in my 22 year career, but I’ve been in my current job for nearly 10 years now, so it is possible to find a long term position after bad luck.

      Most people understand that things happen. You can say that you’re looking because of an uncertain financial situation at your current place and that youre disappointed because you really enjoy the work and are hoping to find a stable environment to enjoy long term job growth.

      1. Shiny*

        That’s reassuring. I should probably add that I don’t have any particularly long stays, which is adding to my uneasiness. I’m truly hoping that whatever comes next is a keeper! I do think my field sees a lot of turnover–I had an interview this week and when asking about staying long term, I heard the average tenure was about 2 years, although higher at the level I was interviewing for.

    2. Emmie*

      I’d frame it as I expected to be at this current company long term, but we are closing in October. I would add that into my cover letter. I might also make an indication on my resume in parentheses “closing.” I am still debating the resume indication. I’d also be sure to line up references now. I might not ask anyone yet, but I’d be more attentive to my behavior and interactions with others.

      1. Shiny*

        Thanks! I should have been clearer–I’m looking now, as I could be laid off at any point starting in May and can’t afford to be unemployed. Complicating that matter is that this is all for a very confidential reason, so I can talk about financial uncertainty from October on, but nothing sooner than that. Does that change the advice any?

        1. Undine*

          You could say something like “completely closed down by October.” It’s pretty normal to phase people out as you close down, because some jobs (HR, finance, legal) have to stay on to turn out the lights, while others, like design, just aren’t going to be there as long. But looking early in these circumstances isn’t a flag against you, it just shows you’re a planner.

        2. Emmie*

          It depends on what makes you the most comfortable. II’d probably change “closing” to “many layoffs.” If this happens in an interview, my natural follow-up would be “so, do employees on your team stay long-term” or “what’s the average employee tenure on this team?”

  51. Ann Furthermore*

    Happy Friday!

    A few weeks back I posted in the open thread about 2 job offers I was considering. One was for a company working with an ERP software application I’ve been using for many years – work that I’m good at and would be very familiar. The other was with a local startup company that is developing what they’re saying is the “next generation” of ERP software. I was all set to accept the job with the startup, but then the other company called me and, well, they threw a crapload more money at me. I ended up accepting that offer. The money was too good to walk away from, plus it’s all remote (with a little travel), which is something I’d been wanting to do for a long time. I’m coming to the end of my 4th week, and….I am loving it. It’s so nice to be back to doing work that I know I’m good at. My last 2 jobs were way outside my comfort zone, and most of the time I felt like I was winging it, figuring things out as I went along. In some respects that’s good – it forces you to learn new things and keeps you on your toes – but man, there is a lot to be said for being confident about your subject matter and feeling like you know what you’re talking about. My coworkers are all great too, and have all been warm and welcoming and overall I feel like I fit right in.

    The company is based in another state, so I flew out there for new employee orientation. The next day there was a client meeting about 3 hours away, so I drove there with my boss, and then flew home. I was a bit apprehensive about that, thinking it might be weird since I don’t know him that well, but it was good. We chit-chatted the whole way and he’s a really nice guy. Earlier in the week, I was back at the client site, and did 2 days of software demos that went very well. I’d been nervous since it was my first time doing any client-facing work with this company. Overall, I feel like I’ve found a place where I can stay and work my butt off for another 10-12 years, and then hang it up and enjoy retirement.

  52. anonypissed*

    What’s the best way to address management problems in an exit interview wiht HR?

    For background, the HR rep has been helpful when previous issues came to her attention, though she limited in what she can do. When I was denied a promotion to manage a new team because my current team would fail without me, HR tried to push back on how backwards the reasoning was. I’m guessing that they will assume this is the main reason that I’m leaving.

    The truth is, the issues on this team go deeper and the reason I wanted that management job was more to get off the team than looking for a promotion. The reason the team will fail without me is because my manager is completely inept. He was promoted because he had been at the company the longest when the manager spot became open. As a regular team member, he was at best an average performer in the context of the team – at a regular company he would have been a low-performer. I started on the team roughly when he took over and have been handling a number of management duties just to keep the team afloat. He freely admits his lack of skill, both at management and as a former team member. He refuses to do any of the hard parts of management, like address performance issues or have any difficult conversations. Instead, the only other capable team member get stuck with cleaning up the mess. Then he gets angry at how many problems the team has. He plays favorites – multiple team members spend a decent part of the day goofing off with him. Any issues on the team get blamed on the client. (The client can be difficult, but because that relationship isn’t being managed properly and alternates between being a yes-man and loud arguments about the product. Things ran much smoother under the previous manager)

    I’m concerned that the team will lose the client, which directly translates to the team being laid off. I’m also concerned about the mental health of the one qualified team member who has been helping me keep the team afloat – we usually support each other, and everything will fall on them. If this person were to leave, the team will completely crumble.

    How do I calmly state the team’s issues in a way that they will be heard?

    1. anonypissed*

      Update: Other team member apparently spent the morning raising their concerns to upper management. A smaller team (the one I was supposed to manage) is being merged in with our team, so whatever feedback I give may influence what role the other team lead will have in the newly merged team.

    2. peachie*

      I don’t have specific advice, but I’d try to frame things as concerns about the company rather than personal grievances. (Not saying that’s what you’re doing or that it’s wrong to have personal grievances, just that being extra diplomatic might help get your point across.) Like, “To be frank, the main reason I’m choosing to leave this job is [these specific problems], and I worry those issues are going to continue to affect the team” (with the optional subtext of “I liked my job otherwise and wish it could have worked out differently,” from which HR could hopefully infer that other employees might make the same decision to leave).

      But, also, this is not your fault and you don’t have to fix it! I think it’s good to be honest in exit interviews if you can — and especially if you think HR might actually listen — but the problems in your office are on your manager. It does suck that your coworkers are going to have to continue to deal with this environment, and I hope they don’t end up unemployed, but maybe you leaving will start the gears turning in their head and they’ll look for other work as well.

  53. Anon here again*

    I was scheduling a phone interview and didn’t take the time difference into account. I asked if it could be rescheduled since I didn’t take into account the time difference. They were gracious, but I’m worried that I gave off a bad impression. (One of the requirements is that they’re looking for “someone smart” and well, oops…) Do you think that I messed up my chances?

    1. Qwerty*

      Should be fine since you caught it before the actual interview. If they have any experience with dealing with people in different time zones, this is a normal complication. In the future, just make sure every time you agree upon is associated with its timezone.

      1. peachie*

        Agreed! This definitely happens and the fact that you dealt with it ahead of time (heh) puts it into the “not a big deal” pile for me. (I had a moment of panic the other day when I realized the time of a [fairly expensive] virtual class I was taking was for a different time zone — thankfully, it was west of me, so I wasn’t an hour late!)

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      As long as you’re dealing with reasonable people, this should not be a big deal. I am absolutely terrible with timezone conversion and have made the same mistake many times. It is a running joke but no one’s dinged my IQ yet. :) Good luck with your interview!

  54. Folkie*

    Had an audition/interview for one of the Folk Music degrees I applied for, an was told I will get an unconditional offer at the end!
    Happy doesn’t cover it. Still waiting on my next audition but I have to say, the students really sold it to me yesterday. Had to drive 6-7 hours to get there, then the same next day to get back, so I’m pretty tired, and am going to spend the next couple of days mulling it all over.
    I’m wondering when to give notice at my job. Now I have one offer, I know for definite that I’m going, so I could give notice now. But now-Sept seems a bit long, so I might wait until after the next audition and get some firm plans in place. What do others think?

    1. peachie*

      That’s fantastic, congratulations!

      Re: putting in notice: I know it might be hard to sit on it, but unless you have the type of relationship with your boss/company where you’re sure you wouldn’t put your job in jeopardy by announcing it early, I’d hold off until maybe a month or two before. (And I’d definitely wait until you have the final offer.)

  55. Sunny*

    This week, the baby talker spoke to me in her little-girl voice, with an added boost of passive-aggressive obsequiousness.

    So glad it’s Friday.

        1. WellRed*

          Ha! Careful. I made a reference to baby talk here a few weeks ago and got several comments about speech impediments. Sigh, sometimes it really is just baby talk.

      2. Decima Dewey*

        Makes me think of the scene in “Horse Feathers” where Thelma Todd is trying to get Groucho MArx of hand over the football signals:

        Thelma: I icky girl don’t get the signals, icky girl gonna cry.

        Groucho: If icky girl don’t stop talking like that, dweat big stwong man is gonna kick all her teeth wight down her thwoat.

    2. ENFP*

      I used to work for a large wee-known retailer at their HQ, and it was a fashion company with almost exclusively female employees. Many of the female managers talked in the baby-talk voice, especially when they needed you to cover extra shifts, etc. I was actually reprimanded for “talking in a very matter-of-fact way”, which people read as “unfriendly”. Translation – normal business voice, not baby talk. Luckily this was a part-time gig to get through grad school – couldn’t wait to escape!

      1. Sunny*

        My shoulders are up around my ears. That’s a typical illustration of women infantilizing women.

  56. Lisa Babs*

    I’m calling an job applicant’s references for the first time. Any recommended questions I should ask?

    Some background info. I’m the office manager for a small company (no formal HR so I’m it). So, I am usually involved with the interview process. I create and place the job ad, screen resumes, schedule interviews, and am present during job interviews asking questions. BUT the owner always calls the references himself. But he’s very busy right now and asked me to do it.

    1. irene adler*

      Depending upon who the reference is, you may or may not get all the info you need. So be prepared for the minimal response of job title and dates of employment and no more. But this can be a good thing; check that they match what’s been given to you on the resume.

      You can ask, “Is the candidate eligible for re-hire? ” That should tell you something.
      Ask about the job duties and skills, especially the one’s you are interested in.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Ask them would THEY re-hire the person. Also ask how the candidate got along with others (and how others got along with the candidate)

    2. Oxford Comma*

      I would send a copy of the posting/job ahead of time. As someone who provides references a lot, I always appreciate that. As for questions, these aren’t great, but they’re standards:
      How do they know the applicant? For how long?
      What was the applicant’s job’s duties?
      What did they do well?
      What did they need more help with?
      If you had an opportunity to hire them again, would you?

      In general, I recommend open-ended questions and not rushing through this.

    3. ANon.*

      Confirm dates of employment, the nature of the reference’s relationship with the candidate (supervisor, coworker, etc.), and for how long the reference has known the candidate.

      Other things to ask:
      Tell me about the work the candidate did and how s/he performed.
      How does the candidate get along with others?
      How well does candidate manage deadlines, follow directions, perform assignments?
      How is candidate’s verbal/written skills?
      Were there any issues with candidate’s reliability? If so, describe.
      Would you reemploy candidate?
      Candidate is applying for a role doing X, which will include XYZ. Do you think candidate will be a good fit and what challenges might we expect?
      Anything else you think we should know?

  57. Middle Manager*

    Looking for some advice on protocol for responding to emails sent to groups of people without a clearly identified person to respond. I struggle with this personally in two directions. I’m not infrequently included on group emails looking for input, clarification, information, etc and I’m often the lowest rank person on the group. If it’s something clearly within my purview/expertise I respond as quickly as possible. If it’s not as clear, I struggle to know if/when to respond. Should I assume that I’m the least busy person on the chain and put in my two cents or should I be waiting for someone higher up than me to offer their input first?

    I also struggle with this with the staff that report to me. I’m often on emails with me and one member of my staff. I want them to have “ownership” of their assigned areas and not feel like I’m taking over, so I try to hold off responding immediately, but they usually don’t take the initiative. I’m guessing they are having a similar debate that I having in my head of not being clear on who should respond. And since I’m not clear on the best way to do it, I haven’t really given them much direction on it.

    Thoughts anyone?

    1. Kathenus*

      On the situation with your direct reports, this is a great thing to have a conversation with them about. Ask them specifically, in general versus about one specific email, how they’d like you to handle those situations. Let them know that you’d like to empower them to be the point person on these if they wanted, but that you wanted to know what they prefer. There are certain things with my direct reports like this, that we discussed in the past so they know that for certain types of requests that they are the first responder, but that they can always reach out to me if they’d prefer me to take point on certain ones. That way they are empowered and have ownership, but know that they can also defer if desired due to time issues, a sensitive topic, etc.

  58. Anon for a wedding*

    I manage a small (very small) department. One of my employees is getting married. We don’t have a culture of gift giving or showers etc here but I would like to give this person something (and I would do the same for any other person I manage). I know their registry info but I also know that cash would be a welcome gift. What does the AAM community think?

    This would be from me personally, not the company. And no, I’m not invited and I’m totally fine with that.

    Should I get them a gift off their registry?
    Should I give them cash?
    Should I just send a card?

    If I give them a gift, should I send it after the wedding to be clear I dont expect an invite?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      For some reason, getting cash as a gift from my boss feels weird even if it’s personally from you as an individual. I’d go with a gift off their registry with a nice note saying how excited you are for this happy time in their life.

      1. Lucy*

        I agree: something about the work situation would make cash a bit weird (unless it was a collection from the entire team perhaps) so if it’s a personal gift then I’d definitely go with the registry.

      2. Coffee Bean*

        Yeah I think I agree, maybe not cash out of pocket.

        I have seen the following things done.
        – A gift card, either to a store you know they like or a general VISA one. I have seen this come out of just the managers pocket or an email sent to a group of people they work with saying “I was going to get Jane a gift card, if you would like you can swing by my desk by Friday and drop off money. If I am not around just put it in the manila folder sitting on my desk.”
        – A card signed by everyone the person works with, or is typically around at work.
        – Can you comp a PTO day for her? I know it isn’t technically your money, but if your company would be comfortable with that, then that is a nice boss gift.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Perhaps a gift card from their registry store, so they can get something from their registry later on that wasn’t bought? Or if anyone else is thinking about getting something, you could combine on it.

    3. Anon for a wedding*

      As I mentioned, there is not a culture of gifts here so as far as I know, no one is planning on getting them anything (although I could probably get a card signed)

      I really thought cash would be tops but it sounds like its not the right choice here. hmmm.

      1. Hope*

        If you really wanted to do cash, I would go with a gift card to the store on the registry, given after the wedding. It’s essentially the same as cash, but less weird for some reason.

      2. blaise zamboni*

        I can see how straight cash might be a bit weird…but when my coworker got married and was going to Europe for his honeymoon, our manager arranged an office gift (100% voluntary–she gave most of it) of cash that was converted to Euros and stuffed into a mason jar, and presented with a card that the entire office signed (whether they contributed or not). It was a really cute presentation and gave the new couple some extra spending money for their honeymoon. Maybe if you want to give cash you could do something like that? Somehow giving foreign currency doesn’t seem as weird.

        But a gift off the registry would be a safe and lovely choice as well! How kind of you to want to do this for them.

    4. My Brain is Exploding*

      I wouldn’t get anything. But I’m one who likes the no-gift (no pressure) culture. (FYI for employees’ Christmas – NOT a gift. Cash. It fits everyone!)

    5. Megan*

      Maybe this is odd, but I would be happy to receive cash. I also work in a small department, and we’re a small business in general, so I wouldn’t find it too weird if my direct manager gave me a gift like that.

  59. Deb Morgan*

    Is there a tool that you use at work to prompt a reminder for yourself to send an email out? Is there a way to do this in Outlook? I send a lot of follow up emails every few days, but it’s hard to keep track of when the next one should go out if I don’t get a response.

    1. Emmie*

      Outlook flags are popular. I prefer calendar reminders. I set them up when I send the email, and compose my follow up so I cut and paste the response in it.

    2. Lucy*

      I use Outlook tasks extensively – each Task can have a reminder associated with it which will pop up a notification window at the desired interval (you can literally type “two days before” into the field). You can snooze the reminders for e.g. five minutes, three hours, two weeks as required.

      1. Lucy*

        Forgot to say: you can literally attach the draft email to the Task itself so it pops up on your screen, you click through to the draft and hit Send.

        To avoid sending an Outlook email by accident, put something like donotsend or similar unresolvable string in the To: field. If you do hit Send by accident (or lean on Ctrl-Enter) then Outlook will prompt you to correct/complete the address and give you an opportunity to cancel.

    3. peachie*

      I auto-forward emails to myself to be delivered in the future for things like this all the time — it seems to work much better than the calendar.

    4. LQ*

      You can flag outgoing emails in outlook too. And the “task” section (Mail, Cal, Tasks, People etc) can be set up as a view that looks very similar to however you like your email. I flag everything and go through all my flags at the end of the day.

      You can also look at flagged emails/tasks on your calendar view by pulling it up from the bottom and if you use the week/work week view you can drag the messages into the future and it fixes the due date to that date.

      1. LQ*

        Sorry, outgoing or draft. Depending on what you need if it’s to follow up with an email you’ve already sent I always flag my outgoing. If it’s a fresh message I just put something placeholdery in and flag the draft.

    1. Four lights*

      When I got a stomach bug and barfed while working at McD, my coworker prepped the washing machine to wash my jacket and got me seltzer.

    2. OtterB*

      I put in a lot of effort on a project and squeaked my necessary part in under the wire to help the organization secure a $700,000 grant. The project co-chairs gave me a very nice restaurant gift card. Totally unexpected. It wasn’t organization money – I think they took up a collection from the committee. The gift card was nice but I really appreciated the recognition that (a) yes, this was my job, but (b) this particular task really had been above and beyond.

    3. KarenK*

      My department threw me a bridal shower. The reason I consider this the nicest thing they’ve done is it was actually two years after the wedding, which my husband and I kept secret because of his own weird reasons. We didn’t even tell most of my family until we had been married a year.

      So, instead of being all offended, like, “Why didn’t you tell us?”, they gave me presents and money and a cake! I cried.

    4. Canonical23*

      I was secretly eloping with my fiance to avoid a large wedding to-do and told my boss (as going to the courthouse would make me about 30 minutes late to work the next day). Before I left, she brought me a card to my office with a very heartfelt note and $100. It was very kind of her and really helped ease some of the anxiety I was having about the whole affair.

    5. Alex*

      I had to leave my office of 4 years for a move out of state. My coworkers threw me a surprise party in the conference room with a Halloween theme, complete with spooky lights and themed snacks. This was in March, but the knew it was my favorite holiday.

    6. anon24*

      I used to work at a business that was open 6 days a week and closed Sundays and holidays. But selve serve areas were open 365 days a year so someone had to be on call in case the machinery broke down and sent an automated message. Then we had to go in and fix it. Manager and I took turns every other week being on call, and the rule was that you had to stay close to work in case you needed to run in. One year my weekend fell on Labor Day. It was also the first weekend I was going to get to see my now husband for over a month because he’d gone to college. I was really missing him and disappointed that we wouldn’t be able to do much because of work, but I was super happy to see him. My boss told me on Saturday to go home and not think about work until Tuesday, he’d cover my on call. It was super nice of him because he sacrificed his holiday for me

    7. Frankie Bergstein*

      A colleague was VERY impressed with my interview, and he wrote an email to our boss saying that and why (as well as his evaluations of the other candidates). One day, he printed out the piece of the email where he was describing me, and he gave it to me. Wow…

  61. Helen*

    I’m looking for advice on how to stay in the loop for a job that I don’t want now, but might want desperately in a few years.

    Some background: I’m from the US, but used to live in another country. A few years ago the switch from a student visa to a work visa didn’t wind up working out, and so I moved back to the US. After trying to find jobs that would take me back to the country I used to live in, I wound up taking an okay job for two years, and then, about a year and a half ago, wound up taking a really cool job that I love. The work is really interesting, I like my coworkers a lot, there’s some cool travel but it’s not that often, and the job is otherwise 9-5, the benefits are GREAT, and it’s a really stable career. It’s also at a super prestigious organization, so I know that if I want to do something else in a related field later, I have a pretty good chance. And I probably do! I like this job a lot, but I’m not sure if I want to do the work forever. But I like doing it now.

    Here’s the thing. My job is really specialized, and a few weeks ago the head of a similar department at a similar organization, but in the country I used to live in, emailed my boss to ask if anyone from my department would want to be recruited to their organization, as they’re expanding. They’d pay a similar salary, they’d do all the work of sponsoring a visa (which was IMPOSSIBLE to convince anyone to do for me a few years ago), and the work also sounds interesting. But here’s the thing: I don’t want to move now. I’m finally settled and have made a bunch of friends, I have a bunch of other side projects that I’m excited about, and I don’t want to do all the logistics of moving again. But I don’t know what I’ll be up to in a year or two, when I might want the opportunity. Is there a good way to stay in touch and keep this option around, but not take this offer now? I’m going to the other country to visit some friends soon, and am going to have coffee with the head of the department then, and they might have a freelance project for me to work on, but right now it all feels like it’s moving towards a potential job soon.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      If you’re friendly enough with the head of the department to have coffee etc then I think you could just come right out and say this! You’ve heard they are interested in recruiting but you want to stay where you are for a while, but you’d like to keep in touch for future opportunities. Who knows, you might be able to go back as a promotion.

  62. Loopy*

    Not sure if this is right for a work thread or not, apologies if it’s Saturday material!

    Can any business saavy types or graphic designers advise how to go about getting a logo made with rights to use it online and POSSIBLY for a small business waaaay down the line….when there is no actual business?

    Also is there any sense of what prices to expect for such rights/work? I’m clueless and would like to be informed before I start reaching out to professionals!

    1. KayEss*

      Pretty much all professional designers will include full rights for a logo design in the cost. If you’re hoping to reduce the price by purchasing fewer rights… that’s not really a thing for logos.

      Prices for a reasonably competent independent designer should probably be in the $100-400 range. Make sure they give you a contract and explain what is included in terms of number of initial design options, revisions, etc. You can ask any questions you have about rights at that point and they should be able to answer.

    2. Its all good*

      I used logotournament.com and loved the results. We got about 25 different versions of the logo with rights for about $400?

  63. AnonForNow*

    Rant/is this disorganization normal or a red flag??

    Context: I just completed 2 rounds of interviews for a good job at a reputable company. But now this happened:

    LAST Wednesday, I got a call from the recruiter for a job I had been interviewing with saying that congratulations! I had made it to the final round of the interview, and I should be hearing from the scheduler within the next couple of days. I receive an email from the scheduler on Monday at 5 saying to choose a time next Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday. No specific time slots given (as is usually the case in my experience.) I respond saying I’m available Monday afternoon.

    I don’t hear anything on Tuesday. On Wednesday morning, I ping back the scheduler with the recruiter cc’d asking for updates, and could they let me know the time as soon as possible because, since the interview is 4 hours long, I need to arrange for time off from my current job. The scheduler responds saying that they understand, and are just trying to receive confirmation from the interviewers. I finally receive an email from the recruiter a couple of hours later saying my interview is on Monday at 1, but they are still waiting on an answer from one interviewer, and once they do, I should receive a schedule.

    Well, it’s now Friday morning, and my interview is (I think) on Monday, but I have received no information about the interview schedule. I have interviewed at plenty of jobs with less reputable companies, and never saw this much disorganization when it came to communication before an interview. It’s different from the first 2 interview stages, where I got confirmations in a timely manner. I’m also put off by the fact that this final stage is 4 hours long, and there seems to be no consideration for the fact that I will need to plan in advance for my time off from my current job. Is this a red flag and should I ditch this whole thing?

    1. Qwerty*

      Time for a phone call. If you don’t get a solid answer from the scheduler, then call the recruiter (or skip to recruiter if you want). It’s fine to tell the recruiter your concerns and see their response. Were you working with a different scheduler for the other two rounds? If so, then maybe this person is new or bad at their job. If you’ve been happy with the company so far, then I’d recommend going to the interview. If this is the latest concern in a series of issues, then cut your losses.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      This is actually sounding remarkably organized to me. They’ve scheduled it for Monday, at 1. They just haven’t finalized who all you will be seeing and in what order.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        Yes. My recruiters’ joke that doing the interview schedule with certain groups is like trying to do an LSAT logic puzzle. And, 25% of the time, someone’s going to be running behind/have to take an urgent client call anyway, so they’re prepared to jump in at any point and flip the interviewers’ order.

    3. Bex*

      This wouldn’t be a red flag for me at all. My understanding is that your interview is confirmed for Monday at 1pm and you know it will last for 4 hours, which should be enough information for you to arrange your schedule. It would be great to know the exact sequence of interviewers, but I think it’s very understandable that the recruiter is juggling schedules for a bunch of senior people and might still be trying to nail one down.

  64. Anon Admin*

    I posted a comment in the Feb. 22-23 open thread regarding my boss asking me to monitor a coworker. Recap: Her boss was on medical leave and my boss was managing her until her boss returned. She stared off doing really good work, then slacked way off, not answering calls/emails, disappearing from her desk for hours and got a few complaints. She was spoken to, improved for a few months, then slacked off again.

    I was asked to monitor her while my boss was on vacation. When he returned I turned over the notes and two days later he asked me to schedule a meeting with her, him and her boss (he came in just for this meeting, he was still on medical leave but wanted to be present). From what I gather, both of them told her they knew she could do good work and she needed to get back to that level, quickly, or she would go on a formal PIP. They also asked if there was anything she needed to help her get back to that level. She told them no, she had become bored with the work and with her level of education (bachelor’s) she felt she needed a raise and a different title. Then she whips out an offer letter from a college and says she would be willing to stay if they would match the offer and change her title. Her last day is March 29th.

      1. Anon Admin*

        I was stunned when they came out of the meeting. I could tell she was not happy, but I thought it was just because she had been told me she needed to improve. I heard him on the phone later telling someone ” It didn’t work. They said no, I knew what the job and pay was and if I was unhappy, I should take the other job. They didn’t even care that I would be leaving”. It was basically a “your performance is bad and your job is in jeopardy” talk, so I honestly have no idea why she thought she could leverage an offer to get more money and a title since she was severely underperforming in her current position.

        I hope she likes her new position and will do well in it. In the meantime, she has slacked off even more. She randomly decides to leaves and she didn’t even come in today.

        2. Nessun*

          Is it super cynical of me to wonder if she actually HAD another offer? I mean, I know there was a piece of paper, but…

          1. valentine*

            Maybe she passed on it because she thought her current job was a sure thing and, hey, she was MIA for hours at a time, so why go somewhere she’d have to actually work?

            I would be so humiliated and panicked if my boss had to come in during their medical leave to discuss my behavior.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        Yup. I had a Mean Girl who was creating all sort of morale problems give notice a couple years ago in a very similar way. Her work product was fine, but she had created a clique on the team and was pressing those people not to help/work with others she didn’t like. She complained LOUDLY that she hadn’t been begged to stay when she handed in her notice and she was very miffed that everyone wished her well with her new endeavor rather than trying to ply her to stay with more money or a promotion.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      A meeting where you are warned that you are about to be put on a PIP is really not the right time to ask about a promotion and raise.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hahahahaha yessssss they just let her walk. Good.

      She tried though. That’s cool.

      Schooling is awesome if you can keep up the level of work you can do and prove you’re worth more. My eyes rolled so hard.

  65. Public Service Librarian*

    The crappiest week ever. Please post meditative and happy words and remind me that this too shall pass.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I don’t have any sayings, but google “Baby Goat is a Flower,” watch the video and be happy.

      1. Auntie Social*

        A bit off topic, but my goddaughter teaches dance and as a result of this, her next toddler group is going to be flower–goats in the recital!

    4. JustaTech*

      Here’s a virtual cup of tea.
      Even if no one else is being kind to you I hope you can be kind to yourself.
      You are important.
      Your work is important.
      You are one of the defining characteristics of civilization.

    5. anon24*

      This week has been weird. I don’t know what got in the water.

      It’s almost over! Do something special for yourself to celebrate. Personally, I’m celebrating with a nap.

    7. Public Service Librarian*

      Well today continued the unrelenting public service nightmare. At an all day conference tomorrow. Thank you for your good thoughts. I am going to watch those videos now.

    8. Public Service Librarian*

      The videos really helped. thank you so much. I actually smiled for the first time since Monday.

  66. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have any experience doing Science Communication (writing for the general public, often for free) while working for a for-profit company?

    I’d like to do more writing in my field and there are a couple of blogs? networks? I’d like to write for, but I don’t know how I should approach it with corporate. I’d like to write under my own name rather than pseudonymously, so I feel like I should get the OK from work.
    Thanks!

    1. WellRed*

      Are these blogs related in any way to the job? Is there some conflict of interest? Do you want to write using your current role as standing for your expertise? Otherwise, not sure I see a need to get the OK From work.

      1. JustaTech*

        It would be more like writing about a new-ish medical technology that my company is a leader in, but not the only makers of, and here’s the general technology, not just my specific version of it. I would 100% be using my current role as standing for my expertise, although I would be citing the literature as well. In writing I would want to disclose that I work for a company using this technology.

        There wouldn’t be any money changing hands, and honestly I’d probably write it at home.

        Part of the reason I want to try writing this way is I’m feeling stuck at work (and apparently everyone took their “lousy management practices” pills at the beginning of the year) so I want to do something *I’m* excited about. And I don’t want to get in trouble. But I’m tired of people saying “no” all the time.

    2. Qwerty*

      Not exactly the same thing, but I do public speaking related to diversity in my field. The way I’d recommend going about it is once you have a concrete idea of what you want to do, just send a quick email to HR or whomever would regulate this sort of thing and ask if there are any existing rules around it. Something like “I’ve been asked by X org to write a post/article about Y. Do we have any restrictions around this sort of community work?”.

      A couple reasons this phrasing works
      – You’ve been “asked” to do it (use your networking to get someone to suggest you do the writing. Mentioning an ability to write along with an interest in helping the org almost always results in being asked to write something). The company interprets this as you having prestige that will add to the company’s reputation
      – “Community” carries with it notes of volunteering and being involved in the field. Companies advertise and recruit using their involvement in the community. More pluses in the company reputation bank.
      – You aren’t asking for permission, but you are still giving them a head’s up. Maybe there’s some conflict of interest or a clause in the handbook that would mean you can talk about A and B but not C. The instinct is usual to say yes to these types of requests, whereas people can have weird reactions to finding out later.
      – The way it is phrased is that you are doing the writing as a favor to others, not for yourself. If you just started writing and referencing your work at the company, they might feel like you are trying to make a name for yourself and using the company to do it, which gets them concerned about your reputation, which can be a problem if someone on the internet decides to make trouble. But when it has the collaborative feel of helping others, every gets to have the feel goods, and you won’t be vulnerable to a random troublemaker

  67. Tableau Wizard*

    I was just asked by an old colleague to hold an educational webinar for his new team on a topic that I’m super excited to share. Any tips for a newbie who is doing this for the first time?

    1. SaaSSalesGuy*

      It’s helpful to have someone manage the webinar tool while you present. They can handle the nuts & bolts while you can concentrate on your presentation. If you do this you can also tell participants they can ask questions in the chat to be addressed at the end. Your co-worker can then ask the questions when you get to the q&a. Un-muting on webinars can get ugly with feedback/background noise so I’ve found this a better way to handle q&a. Good luck!

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      This more general presentation advice, so apologies if you know all this already and are more looking for webinar-specific advice, but the #1 thing I always recommend is to talk significantly slower than you think you need to. Between nerves and non-spontaneous speaking, you’ll be talking faster than you realize – I’ve found that if you talk at a rate that makes you think “hmm I feel like I’m talking super slow, is it weird”, you’re actually talking at a normal, comfortable presentation pace.

      It’s also a good idea to determine how you’ll want to take questions – is it ok for people to chime in whenever they want, or do you want people to wait until the very end, etc, and then announce that preference at the beginning – “I’ll be pausing for questions throughout, please hold your questions for those moments” or “Please hold all your questions until the end”. Setting the precedence cuts back on unwanted interruptions and makes it way easier to deflect politely in the moment.

      Give your webinar in front of someone else, preferably someone who doesn’t know the subject matter, and ask them to ask as many questions as they can throughout. I’ve thought I’ve had my training sessions perfect, only to realize my base knowledge was filling in holes I didn’t notice. Figuring out what questions people may have lets you strengthen your presentation beforehand so they don’t have to ask in the moment.

      And lastly, if this has a powerpoint or any sort of visual medium, do not, under any circumstance, put all of the information onto your slides. Your words and visuals should work together to enhance one another, but not match completely. Someone reading directly off of their slides makes me wonder why they didn’t just send the presentation and let me go over it on my own.

      Those are just some base presentation pointers (again, hopefully they’re helpful, apologies if I’m preaching to the choir), good luck, what an exciting opportunity!

      1. Rachel*

        We were both posting at the same time, but I want to emphatically agree that you shouldn’t put everything you’re going to say on the slides. If you’re going to do that, just send a handout and call it a day. Slides should support what you have to say, both in text and images. They should not be a replacement for you.

    3. Rachel*

      Talking head presentations usually aren’t effective for your audience. You should be including regular chats and polls, and perhaps status icons for quick answers. These can be effective even with large audiences, as everyone can answer at once, and you can cherry pick a few good responses to acknowledge. Quickly explain the tools you will use at the beginning.

      Meaningful questions and activities keep participants engaged, and learning transfer is usually enhanced. For example, if you were discussing delegation, you might ask questions like “what are the benefits of delegation? To the delegator? To the delegatee? To the organization? What might happen if delegation doesn’t take place?” You want them to think about the topic in a serious way, not just answer glibly or sit and wait for you to fill their heads. Or if you’re explaining a process, have a slide with pictures/screenshots of several steps and ask them to use their stamper or annotation tool to stamp the correct next step.

      Make sure you do a dry run the day before – test the audio and make sure you know how the web conferencing platform works. And then log in 15 to 30 minutes before the start to make sure everything is still OK. You do not want any bad surprises right before you start.

    4. MeMeMe*

      As someone who has to listen to a lot of webinars regularly, my advice is to please practice first! Even better, record yourself speaking and then listen to yourself, to make sure you’re not doing things like speaking in a continuous monotonous drone, saying “ummmm” or using filler words a lot, mumbling, etc.

      Do you have a good microphone? Aiming the microphone at your throat rather than your mouth will help reduce sibilance and other mouth sounds that can create high-frequency crackles which make you hard to understand.

      Also, you’d think these next two things would go without saying, but nooooooo —

      *If you have a cold or respiratory affliction that day, please consider postponing the recording or, for the love of all that’s good and holy, at the very least, do not blow your nose or snort up mucus into the microphone.

      *Don’t eat or drink while you’re recording.

    5. Jen F*

      Having someone in the room makes it less awkward than giving it to your monitors. There is something about the nonverbal feedback of another human in the room that makes it a lot less like just talking to yourself. And make sure if you have water (or other thirst-quencher) you leave it in a place you won’t knock it over. Ask me how I know. Best of luck! I’ve enjoyed doing these sorts of things.

  68. themuse*

    I’m making a career change (from STEM to the medical field) and have applied and been accepted to a couple of master’s programs. (I am in the US.) One of these programs offered me a merit scholarship, but is still quite expensive (the scholarship takes it from “LOL no, not paying that” to “ugh, this would really suck to pay off”). I’ve had some people suggest that I should go back to the school and negotiate–they might be willing to give me more money. So, my questions:
    -Is negotiating a financial aid package even a thing? I always thought you just get what you get.
    -If it is a thing, have any of you done this successfully?
    -If it is a thing, what approach would you recommend? Just emailing/calling the financial aid office and saying “hey, I’d really like to go here but despite your offer it’s still out of reach for me–are there any other grants etc. available?”

    Thanks for any info you can provide!

    1. Shiny*

      I would recommend the last option. They may know of professors who hire graduate assistants, etc. who you can contact. The only time I tried this was an undergraduate wanting to take a summer intensive program–I was already enrolled at the school, and they came up with a few thousand dollars so I could do it. I’m not sure how it would work for a more substantial amount, but I don’t think you have anything to lose by discussing your options.

    2. epi*

      There are actually a couple of programs in my field (public health) known for doing this. IMO they benefit from the perceived prestige of being a private school in a fairly desirable US city, and are charging a tuition way outside what most people in our field will be able to service– or what the school’s rank and reputation really merit. They are able to give huge “scholarships”– really tuition discounts– because the base tuition is super high in the first place.

      IME, particularly with professional masters programs, negotiating financial aid is not really a thing. I have even seen schools charge slightly higher tuition for the professional degree vs. the academic degree in the same concentration. Unless you are being offered this financial aid package for your work as a TA or something, in which case you’d really be negotiating your pay, I don’t think this strategy is likely to be successful. But it probably also will not hurt you to ask. It’s not like you’ll be asking the faculty member you want to be your mentor or something, and coming off as naive to them. You’ll be asking an administrator. And they’re not going to pull your acceptance over it.

      If you are looking at a field where you know schools compete for students like you– it’s more common in doctoral programs but not impossible for masters– then this strategy is more likely to be successful. Ultimately, though, I wouldn’t go anywhere for a professional masters that you think will hurt to pay off. That is double true if you aren’t positive you want to live in the city where you would be doing the degree– it will be most valuable there. The options are really to try to get an employer to pay for it, try again next year as a more competitive candidate/at programs where you will be seen as more competitive, or just don’t consider programs you won’t be able to pay for.

    3. Artemesia*

      It is hard to get financial aid in masters programs which are generally cash cows for universities. But financial aid is always negotiable — sometimes there are tuition scholarships that can be given if they want you, sometimes there are TA positions although generally those are for doctoral students, sometimes there are on campus jobs/ work study etc that can make a difference. So definitely push for more assistance.

      1. themuse*

        Thanks all! Complicating this is that my full award hasn’t posted yet–I only know about the scholarship because the school told me separately. I didn’t want to miss the opportunity to ask here though, as I may need to accept before the next open thread comes around.

        Epi, I definitely get the sense that overpriced tuition/tuition discount is the situation here. This is for nursing, so I’m absolutely not wanting to go into a ton of debt.
        The biggest thing I was worried about was the school rescinding the acceptance, so if that is indeed not likely, I may try asking once I have the full picture.

    4. Alanna*

      I successfully negotiated financial aid for my MD degree. Basically, the admissions committee wrote me a few weeks after decisions were released saying, “Hey, you seem cool! Are you still interested in attending our school?” I wrote back and said some version of, “Hey, I think you’re really cool too but you’re way too expensive and also I got a full tuition scholarship from another school. Can you spare some change?” Some schools negotiate and some do not, so you kind of need to have a sense of that but this school found a few quarters in the couch :)

  69. JennyFair*

    I’m quitting my job and moving away to finish my degree. In checking out options for living situations, it may be possible to manage one of the college-owned apartment complexes in exchange for free housing. Has anyone had experience managing college apartments? I’m in my 40s and have raised kids (one of whom is graduating from the same school this Spring), and I currently manage an office, so I feel like this is within my skill set, but am wondering what surprises might be in store.

    Thanks!

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I would consider how you feel about being woken up late at night to deal with issues. You want to be really clear on the expectations of the job. Does campus security cover the complex or the local PD? Who has to deal with unruly parties? What happens if someone pulls the fire alarm? Do you have to deal with any roommate disputes? Can students put in their own maintenance requests or do they go through you?

    2. Tricksie*

      At my university, that kind of position is considered full-time, where you’d be managing a bunch of student RAs, doing lots of assessment, supervising programming, going to meetings, etc etc. There’s a ton of on-call hours, including nights, weekends, holidays (even during school breaks). That might still be possible to do around your graduate coursework, depending, but you should make sure you know the full level of work involved.

  70. Emily Elizabeth*

    Hello everybody! I’ve been a lurker of the site since I neared graduation but am only now plunging into my first real job search. This question may be common knowledge/already have been addressed but I appreciate the help: does it make a difference to apply for a job listing on Indeed versus through the company’s own website? Specifically, for the few jobs I have applied to so far, I have found the jobs on Indeed but then been going to the company’s website and applying through their process. However, for a job I found this morning on Indeed, which gives you an option to submit your resume through them; on the company’s website, they simply have an email to which you are instructed to send your resume and cover letter. Does one have an advantage over the other, or is it a half dozen kind of deal? Thanks so much!

    1. irene adler*

      Go directly to the company website and apply.

      I don’t know about Indeed as to whether they have default options for applying for jobs. However, I understand that with LinkedIn, the “Easy Apply” is the default option for the job ads. This option is not apparent to the job poster -especially those who aren’t familiar with LI. Hence, all the applications filed through Easy Apply don’t get to the job poster because they don’t know to check for these applications.

    2. The JMP*

      Generally I’d suggest applying through the company’s website as well. It of course varies by organization, but at my org the company website applications come directly to me (the hiring manager) while the Indeed applications are sent to the Indeed point of contact (someone in our HR department) and are forwarded to me. Additionally, at my organization you’d have to apply through the website anyway to be formally offered the position. For people who apply via other methods I just ask them to apply through the website when we’re ready to make an offer, so it’s not like anyone would miss out on an opportunity, but it’s extra work for them and me. I don’t think it’s a big deal either way, though.

    3. Ama*

      I’d follow the directions on the company’s website. We advertised a job opening on Indeed to expand our candidate pool — they did not give us the option to opt out of the direct apply feature. It was supremely annoying because Indeed doesn’t have a cover letter option — so any strong candidates who came in that way, we had to email and ask them to submit a cover letter if they were truly interested. Candidates who noticed our job posting said “submit cover letter and resume to hiring@ourjob.org” and did just that definitely got extra brownie points (attention to detail being a big selling point for the position that was open).

    4. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Definitely apply directly through the company’s website. Who knows how often someone checks Indeed, or LinkedIn, or wherever else, the website will give you direct access and probably have the most up to date information/posting.

      Good luck!

  71. Persephone Mulberry*

    The job that hadn’t gotten back to me as of last week’s open thread contacted me on Tuesday and I just got back from my second interview! There was a short check in with the hiring team, then I spent ~20 minutes with one of the people currently doing that job and another 20 minutes with one of the folks doing the flip-side-of-the-coin job to gain an understanding of how the two roles work together. It was really helpful.

    They said they have one more person to interview this afternoon and that they plan to make a decision shortly thereafter, and they will be in touch on Monday (which probably means Tuesday).

    I definitely really, really want this job.

  72. SadMidwesterner*

    We were warned to label everything in the communal freezer or it would be tossed this week, so i double checked that all the food I keep there was set to go and it was.
    AAAAANNND it’s still gone. This happens all the time. I should order breakfast and submit an expense report just to see what happens.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Our last fridge purge was announced.
      Then someone tossed my food because they felt like getting ahead of the project. By a week.
      Despair, I tell ya, despair.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Eh, I don’t know. That’s annoying but I don’t think you should be leaving things in office fridges for 1+ weeks unless it’s like mustard or salad dressing. There’s not usually enough room for people to store stuff there. I think a couple of days is fine (for example, you brought your lunch one day but had an unexpected meeting and plan to eat it the next day instead) is fine. But not a stockpile of Lean Cuisines in the freezer. Just your daily (or close to it) needs.

    2. KR*

      I remember when at my old job at a grocery store, the rule was that food had to be cleared out by Friday at a certain time or else it would be tossed. My favorite workplace snack was to have a bag of carrot sticks, label them with my name and date, and snack on them throughout the week as they were extremely filling and healthy. I took them home Friday at 10:15 when I closed the store, came in to open the store Saturday very early morning and put a brand new unopened bag in that was dated with that days date. Then the HR person cleaned out the fridge in between when I came in that morning and my first break of the day. When I asked her about it and pointed out that I had followed the note and removed my food before the deadline, it was labelled, unopened, and her office was right near the front end where I was a supervisor (and in charge of answering the store phone and directing calls so she would have known I was working) she really didn’t care or even apologize. When my manager came in and I told him he immediately went and expensed a bag of carrots for me. He was more upset than I was. So I feel your pain. That is so frustrating. I would take pictures with timestamps and send them to whoever cleans the fridge.

    3. fposte*

      I still mourn a special promotional dish that I could never get again from a local restaurant that got uncharacteristically tossed early by staff. She was at least very apologetic and understood why I was wounded.

  73. Mazzy*

    It’s definitely a candidate’s market, so I’m looking for help on some picking a candidate. This is for a job posted as 2-5 years experience, but I’m flexible. Note I’m looking for someone with analytical skills who can solve problems, not necessarily the most qualified or cream of the crop candidate. It’s not a good fit for that type of person. Two choices:

    A more entry candidate. Was at one corporate job and didn’t make it through the probationary period, but, his reasoning made total sense, it was a bad fit, and glassdoor reviews weren’t great for his past job, despite him not even mentioning that. He has had a low level office job for 4 year so knows the basics of working in an office and has training in analytical programs. This would be the next step up for him, but he is an un-known quantity, so there is a fear of the unknown when I’m evaluating his candidacy.

    The second candidate has 10 years experience, all in similar roles in a different industry. The computer skills and mindset are transferable, but it seems off that they want to leave that industry after 10 years, if for no other reason that it’s not a linear progression. However, they may have legitimate reasons for the change and 10 years out of college is definitely still young enough to start anew in a new industry. They were laid off 2X, which seems somewhat normal for what industry, but still scares me. Why didn’t they survive every cut? They seem a little bitter about the layoff, which I totally get. My issue is that I can’t know whether they’re going to be bitter about stuff that happens at this job. Also, he doesn’t seem to have great answers for interview questions. He just seems to want to work. Why do I like him? Because I totally get him, and I think he will do the work well and pick up on stuff and be able to survive in an environment where so much of the work is ad hoc. But will be have the right attitude to get along with everyone else?

    Based on this information, what other questions would you ask, and who are you leaning towards hiring?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      First hire no assholes. If the unknown quantity’s references check out and you truly see potential, go with the nicer person.

    2. NACSACJACK*

      As Alison always says, go with your gut. Hate to do it to the less experienced, but he could be your backup candidate.

    3. Elaine*

      You say you’re looking for analytical skills and problem solving ability. You didn’t really mention how each candidate stacks up there. Did you ask or give them opportunities to demonstrate how they would approach problem-solving? If so, did they both impress you or is one more impressive than the other? Did they seem receptive to learning new things? If they both look good in those areas that you indicated are important to you, then I’d go with the one who seems to be someone easy to work with and reliable.

      1. Mazzy*

        Oh this is one I should’ve thought of. I should make some sort of test or question or problem example for the in-persons and then, if they bomb that then I’ll have more info to go with and it with help support any decision if I also don’t feel completely certain about their personality.

    4. Uncle Bob*

      Besides the other excellent advice, this question stood out to me: “Why didn’t they survive every cut?”. You actually don’t know whether there was 2 cuts or 20 cuts. Getting laid off twice could have been in a series of 10 layoffs. At the place I worked layoffs were somewhat constant for years. So technically, I survived 10+ cuts despite getting cut in the end.

  74. Kate S*

    POLL:
    1. When being hired, what is the #1 skill your job claimed you would need?
    2. Upon working in that role, what is the #1 skill that you ACTUALLY need?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      1. When being hired, what is the #1 skill your job claimed you would need?
      Writing
      2. Upon working in that role, what is the #1 skill that you ACTUALLY need?
      Patience. Lot’s of it. The ability to get work done with other departments is glacial and frustrating.

    2. Coffee Bean*

      1. (A technical skill instead of the generic “Problem Solving”) Excel
      2. Patience & Office politic savviness

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve had a ton of jobs that claimed I’d need 50+ wpm typing speed.

      What I really needed was a great phone voice. Talked all day and never wrote a thing.

    4. CMart*

      1) Excel
      2) PowerPoint

      I want to insert the laughing emoji there, haha. I’m in Finance/Accounting but HOLY MOTHER OF JEEBUS do I make an upsetting amount of powerpoint decks. Thank God for company-mandated templates.

  75. JocelynX*

    The company did a big reorg earlier this year and frankly I’m surprised the team I’m on managed to survive. We lost a few people to other internal teams doing better work and yet got our workload doubled, and the person who got promoted to manager our team already seems to be drowning with everything that’s on his plate. Plus he’s mentioned multiple times about how he never wanted to move into management and was pushed into it against his will. As a person I can empathize, but as his direct report…. I need to find another team.

  76. Slippy*

    I apologize because I know there was a thread on this in the past, but I couldn’t find it. I work with college students readying to enter the workforce, and this includes some sort skills. Many of them are first generation students and grew up with parents who worked manual labor/service industry jobs. They may not have grown up with parents who set expectations for office environments or can give them guidance on what to expect in a white collar job. Does anyone have any suggestions for resources or things that may seem obvious that these students might not know going in? I want to set them up for success as best I can but I worry that I’m blind to a lot of potential problems they might encounter in this area.

    1. LondonEngineer*

      I don’t know that I have any specific advice but here are a few links to some of the open threads along those lines
      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/10/ask-the-readers-what-past-work-behavior-do-you-now-cringe-over.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2015/09/confess-your-job-search-sins-here.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/what-surprised-you-most-when-you-first-started-working.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/05/if-youre-a-new-grad-here-are-some-things-for-you.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/03/ask-the-readers-misconceptions-about-work-when-youre-early-in-your-career.html
      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/03/the-things-you-dont-know-about-work-when-youre-early-in-your-career.html

      1. Slippy*

        Thank you so much! I don’t know why I wasn’t able to find these, they were what I was looking for.

    2. LondonEngineer*

      I put some links in another post but it will take a while to get through moderation

    3. Anna Held*

      I’d advise them to ask when they don’t know things. So often newbies are too shy to speak up for themselves or ask questions, yet this is an important skill. Google first, then just ask your boss or coworker. If it turns out it was a stupid question, so what? Now you know.

      And maybe some role playing on how to protect one’s boundaries and speak up at work. Those seem to be Alison’s most frequent questions!

    4. My Brain is Exploding*

      Something similar is the military TAPS program, which they provide to those leaving the service, and includes specifics on dressing for the workplace (had a local clothing store owner come in and discussed things like only pleated pants should have cuffs!) and lots of other useful info.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Alison had a great post on this (it was an ask the readers post) on Dec 10, 2012.

      Sorry, I do not know how to post a link here. If anyone wants to teach me, I would be happy to learn.

      Somewhere on this blog there is a reference to a woman who wrote at least one really good, detailed article about this. It was amazing. I learned a lot from it – including that I grew up blue collar! The adjustments that I had to make with my white collar jobs were so difficult! I had no idea why I had struggled for years with things that other workers just seemed to know. Unfortunately, I can not find this exact blog. Maybe someone else can help.

  77. plant lady*

    Giving notice when leaving for school –
    I’ve been in a full-time, coordinator level position in fundraising/grantwriting for a nonprofit one year and plan to quit in three months to go get a high school math teaching license and teach for a few years – I’m burnt out in this job and excited for a meaningful new career. My job will be very sad/shook by my departure. It’s a small nonprofit, and I haven’t been here long obviously. How much notice should I give and how should I handle this?

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I would give a month’s notice. Long enough for them to get a head start on hiring your replacement but not so long that they’ll say okay you can leave next week instead.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Have you seen other people quit and be treated well? If so, I agree a month is kind. If you know people get walked out immediately or treated badly, give the standard 2 weeks.

  78. MusicWithRocksInIt*

    Can I post a sign at my desk that says “Don’t ask me if I’m excited!”? I am 39 weeks pregnant and due to be induced on Sunday and I am *SO* sick of that question. Honestly I am really stressed and cranky and hormonal and I am afraid that the next time a coworker asks me that I’m gonna loose it. My friends and family know not to ask, but there are over a hundred people in the building and it is the only thing any of them want to discuss with me.

    1. ZSD*

      I think you’ll just go from Group A sincerely asking if you’re excited, to Group B sarcastically asking in response to the sign.
      But at least you only have a few more hours to endure the questions. Good luck!

    2. Four lights*

      Maybe you can get a little funny with it:

      Before you ask…
      Yes, I’m excited
      No, it’s not twins
      It’s a boy.
      Or a girl.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yes. Post an FAQ. This may not go down well in some situations, but I think a person with a known sense of humor and reasonable colleagues could totally get away with that.

      3. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

        “I have reached the grumpy trimester.
        Leave the chocolate on the floor and slowly back away.
        Cheese/Bacon/XX is also acceptable.
        Otherwise, approach at your own risk.”

        3. Approval is optional*

          I know this is lighthearted but please don’t do that: hard enough for pregnant persons to be treated as fully functioning, emotionally stable adults in some workplaces as it is (pregnancy brain/pregnancy mood swing assumptions are crappy), so best not to feed the bigots I say.

          1. Grapey*

            Agreed, if anything, look at it as practice for warding off endless questions by 4 year olds.

    3. Sapphire*

      Could you ask a colleague you’re close with to spread the word that you don’t want to talk about it?

      1. MusicWithRocksInIt*

        We are a big, sprawling place. Lots of people that I never used to talk to, and am still unsure of their names have been chatting quite a bit more with me lately just to talk about the baby. I am looking forward to being just another face in the crowd when I get back.

    4. Sloan Kittering*

      These things are so hard because the casual coworker may honestly feel like it’s rude NOT to acknowledge your situation, like it can seem thoughtless and unkind to tell someone who’s about to drop a live human into the world about your TPS report needs.

    5. CMart*

      I suggest posting the “Please submit an offering of chocolate/cheese before approaching ” sign :D

      I dealt with those questions the same way I deal with “how’s the baby sleeping?” questions – with a noncommittal answer and then immediately turning it to something I DO want to talk about.

      Are you excited?? “I’m ready to meet my baby. And have a margarita. I’ve heard great things about Upscale Taco Place but haven’t gone because I’d be too jealous. Have you been?”

      How’s the baby sleeping? “Oh you know, like a baby. It’s a good excuse to try the new KCup flavors.”

      …I might just like talking to people about beverages.

  79. Is it my brain, or my work?*

    The post on dealing with neurodiversity at work the other day made me think a little bit about the spectrum of neurodiversity, particularly whether being “neurotypical” means you shouldn’t have issues with the kind of work people with ADHD often do. I have never had issues in school or in jobs that I found interesting and varied, but I recognized a lot of challenges I have in people’s posts around repetitive and detail-oriented work, which I’ve always found frustrating and difficult to succeed in. I try to stay away from that when looking for work, and a lot of my coping strategies are similar to what people said in their posts, but as my job has taken a turn toward repetitive and detail-oriented, I’m also increasingly feeling like this is just not a good long-term fit for me.

    So I guess my question is…is there an expectation that all people SHOULD be able to be successful at certain kinds of work and not get bored, distracted, or make mistakes, and if you can’t it might be a medical issue? Or are there kinds of work where it’s just not really fair to expect (most) people to be good at them and maintain attention as a general baseline? I don’t think we have this expectation for physical labor, and we look at (many) people who do that as having physical skills and abilities above the normal baseline, but I don’t think we treat focused attention the same way.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I tend to think all this stuff is a spectrum where the far side of each end might be characterized as a medical issue – so like, everyone has a range of attentiveness but on the far end you might need medication to manage it. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. Sometimes we are bored or struggle but for the most part if we’re not experiencing consequences we’re probably okay. Several mental illnesses seem to include a requirement that it has to distress you, the patient, in order to qualify – meaning that the line is inherently subjective.

      1. Is it my brain, or my work?*

        That’s pretty much what I think, too, but I sometimes wonder if in certain ways we set people up to fail. Like would ADHD be as much of a problem for kids in school if they had more time outside and less standardized testing pressure? I think it’s great that we have increased recognition and treatment options for people with that diagnosis, but I also think that what’s tough on kids and adults with ADHD is also tough on a lot of people who are not quite as far on the medical side of the spectrum. And it kind of sucks that the we only talk about it individually, like “this person has a learning disability” or “this person is just bad at this,” not “this work is not designed well for a variety of people to thrive.”

        1. LilySparrow*

          There is a growing body of evidence that the way we do school in the US vs the way they do it in other countries, especially in areas like quality of food offered, amount of outside time, and the age at which we begin expecting “academic” schooling vs play-based learning, is strongly correlated with the incidence of ADHD in kids.

          It’s a neurodevelopmental disorder, not a birth defect. Developing executive functions in childhood requires certain types of experiences and stimuli (like free play, large-motor exercise, overall health and good nutrition, etc.).

          Some kids who experience ADHD will always grow up to be adults with ADHD, no matter how enriched their environment. Others may not be genetically hard-wired for it, they just were deprived of the opportunity to develop those parts of the brain until later in life. (These may be some of the kids who “grow out of it.” – they were just late bloomers.)

          There’s other factors as well – of course! But yes. Environment is absolutely a thing.

          1. Teach*

            A big part of my job is teenagers with ADHD and very high IQs. I talk about ADHD as a neurological variance, and also that it’s often only a problem in a traditional school setting. The book The Lightning Thief frames it as a situational strength, in a mortal + human offspring. Many of us really like this book. (I’m a former gifted kid, now considerably more intense and curious than my peers, ADHD, OCD, anxiety.)

    2. BRR*

      ADHD here. Short answer to your question, no. My opinion on this is everyone has strengths and weaknesses and might not succeed at certain kind of work. I always looked at my ADHD as attention being very difficult to obtain with will power, even for things that I’m interested in.

    3. LilySparrow*

      No, everybody can’t be good at everything. And getting bored and frustrated is a normal reaction to boring, frustrating situations. The word “tedious” means “too long, slow, or dull; tiresome or monotonous” because that describes a normal experience that we needed a common word for.

      ADHD traits are normal human traits that everyone has to some degree, in some situations. Everyone is distracted sometimes. Everyone is bored or restless or chaotic sometimes.

      If the frequency and intensity of those traits, and/or the appropriateness of when they appear, interferes with your ability to function acceptably in several different realms of your life (work or school AND home or relationships or self-care, for example) then you might be looking at a disorder.

      Most everyone gets bored and makes careless mistakes at jobs they don’t like. When you have trouble paying attention to things you DO like and ARE personally important to you, then it’s worth investigating if there is more going on.

  80. it_guy*

    I know there are a lot of people doing volunteer work here, so I would like to pose a question: Can you recommend a good site to find local opportunities to volunteer?

    1. Loux in Canada*

      I didn’t really go to a site. Maybe think of some charities or social services organizations that you like in your community and then see if they need volunteers. I volunteer with an animal shelter and a social services organization and I signed up by searching their websites.

    3. Anon Anon Anon*

      idealist.org and Volunteer Match are the big ones in the U.S. I also recommend googling to find local non-profits based on your interests and contacting them to ask about volunteering because not everyone advertises on the big sites. There’s usually more out there than meets the eye.

      1. OtterB*

        Agreed, think about what areas you would like to help with (literacy, homelessness, environment, etc.) and look for well-regarded local organizations dealing with that.

        Also, our public library often has flyers about community volunteer opportunities posted on the bulletin board.

    4. M. Albertine*

      Check your local United Way website. All the ones I know if list opportunities, both short- and long-term, with their member organizations, so there’s a good variety.

    5. it happens*

      Google your city+volunteer. For example, in NYC we have newyorkcares.org which hosts a clearinghouse of short-term to long-term volunteer gigs. If you want to provide your professional skills to a nonprofit put professional in the search to find an organization like net impact, taproot or pro bono partnership in your area.

  81. Larina*

    I recently got a merit increase, and because I only worked at my current company starting in July, they only gave me the percent increase on how much I made last year. I’ve always gotten raises and merit increases based of a percentage of my total yearly salary, not just on whatever I made last year, so this feels very strange to me.

    Does only giving a salary increase based on how much I made last year make sense? I feel like I’m getting short-changed. Also, I didn’t request this. Our company is moving to having everyone do reviews/bonuses at the same time, so that’s why it happened. Plus, since my increase goes into effect this month, next year, I’ll have Jan and Feb salary at my old rate, so a new merit increase will be smaller as well.

    Is there anything I can say or do that might help my boss (who doesn’t like that it’s being done this way) maybe get this changed?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Its pretty normal for raises and bonus’ to be prorated for people who only worked part of the year. Although my experience is more along the “you only started here in August so you aren’t eligible for a raise/promotion in this cycle and have to wait another year” so I didn’t get a raise until I’d been there over a year.

    2. Arjay*

      Pro-rating an increase is normal. The calculation I’ve seen is done differently, but amounts to the same thing. Generally I’ve seen the total increase calculated, but then divided by your tenure if it’s less than a full year. So if a year’s raise would be $3,000 and you were there for 6 months, you’d receive $1,500 spread out over the next year’s pay periods.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh that seems weird to me. Like I understand if you get a bonus based on the amount of time you worked at the company, but a raise? In my experience those are always a percentage of your salary in general. It seems unfair to be like “hey we’re doing your annual review before your one year mark because of reasons, but because you haven’t been here a full year you don’t get a full raise”. Granted, if you’d only been there a week it seems silly to do an annual review/raise that early, but you’ve been there since July, a non-small amount.

      Maybe you can ask for them to increase it to the non-prorated amount once you’ve been there a full year?

    4. BRR*

      I find it weird. I can understand some raises being prorated based on certain criteria but this sounds like it should have been done on what your salary is, not what you took home. This sounds like something my company would do and then claim the raise was a higher percentage.

  82. Loux in Canada*

    I have an assessment for an internal job posting today in less than an hour… It’s an internal test, I don’t know what it is, and it’s two and a half hours in length. Holy crap I’m so nervous. My boss and everyone I’ve talked to has said it can’t be too bad, but two and a half hours?! That’s like a university exam. Stress.

  83. whistle*

    Anyone else want to vent about ridiculous application processes?
    Dear Company,
    I’m not sure why “start date” is a required field for the education section of your online application. I’m also not sure why it has to be MM/DD/YYYY and not just YYYY. And I’m really not sure why I can’t even type in a date but instead have to scroll through your stupid calendar that starts on today’s date in order to plug in some fake start date for my degree I received a decade ago. Oh, and finally, I’m super not sure why you can’t just pull this information off of my resume!!

    1. Antilles*

      The day part is especially absurd because it’s not even entirely clear what it means – does the date start on the day I moved into my freshman dorm, the day classes started, or the day of *my* first class? And it’s hard to tell how it matters – at most, you’re looking at a difference of 30 days (August 1st versus August 31st), which is basically a rounding error for a several-year degree.
      I could see some value in requiring the month, since “2016 to 2017” could mean anything from “basically two years” (January 2016 to December 2017) to “did you even learn everyone’s name?” (December 2016 to January 2017). But once you get the month, an extra couple weeks doesn’t seem remotely relevant.
      Personally, when I’ve run into this, I just picked the very start of the month and went with that. It’s blatantly obvious to the reader that I’m just listing the month, but nobody has ever mentioned it. Effectively, it’s the equivalent of listing 00000000 for your social security number on the initial application; it shuts the automated process up so you can keep going and is intuitively understood by the (human) reader.

      1. whistle*

        I didn’t even get that close, since I couldn’t type in a date and had to scroll through a horrible calendar system and click on a day. I ended up picking today’s date in the year (I think) I started that particular degree because once I got back to 2006 I really didn’t feel like then scrolling back from March to August (or September??? I don’t remember!). I then didn’t fill out any of my other degrees, because, again, they’re on my resume!

    2. KR*

      I don’t understand when they have these fields for when you can start work – like I don’t know how long the hiring process is or when they need me to start. Generally I can start two weeks after I receive an offer if I’m already employed but I depends on so little, I don’t want to put a date and then have them get upset with me that I need to give a good notice period

      1. The JMP*

        Generally if someone puts two weeks from the date they applied, I assume they mean they would need to give two weeks notice and that would start from the date they accepted the offer or thereabouts. The only time I pay much attention to that field is if the “date available to start” seems outside the norm (like an application submitted in December to start in May) and then I’d look at the rest of the application to see why that might be. Most reasonable employers will understand that you need to give notice.

        1. Antilles*

          That’s my general stance too – If you list a date within the next few weeks, I’m not assuming that it’s a hard date of “April 1st” but more of a general “a couple weeks’ notice after you let me know”. It’s only really notable if it’s some crazy far out date that might make me think there’s something unique to your situation, like a real employment contract or some similar hard requirement.

      2. whistle*

        Agreed, KR!
        JPM and Antilles give ideas of how a reasonable hiring manager might view the candidate’s answer, but here’s the thing – the candidate doesn’t yet know that their answer is going to be viewed by a reasonable person! How about if the application process itself provides the candidate with more leeway in how to answer? Instead of forcing the candidate to type in a date and make a guess as to how that date might interpreted by the company, why can’t the application form be set up so the candidate can provide a reasonable answer? Why is the candidate limited to only supplying a date (when a date may make no sense for the reasons stated by KR)?

    3. Plain Jane*

      Ugh, that bothers me, too. Other pet peeves:

      Having to cut and paste your resume instead of uploading it.

      Making the street address of former jobs be a mandatory field because I have worked at offices that have closed or moved.

      Having the desired salary mandatory field not include space to have a range.

      Having to provide salary for former positions.

      Uploading a resume and not having your info auto fill and you have to fill it all out.

      Having to provide references at the application stage.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Having the desired salary mandatory field not include space to have a range.

        Or have it be numerical only so I can’t type “I’d like to learn more about the position before we discuss salary.”

      2. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        Yes to all of those! I’ll also add:
        Having to provide starting AND ending salary for each previous job

        Drop-down menus that don’t contain the answer I need. (For example, things like college majors, schools attended, etc. I once encountered one of these that had all the regional campuses of Well-Known State University listed as options, but NOT the main campus, where I went! What was I supposed to do with that?)

        Topgrading applications. Who has time for that?

        Finishing the application, hitting submit, and having it go to a broken link. ARGH!

        1. Antilles*

          Topgrading could be its’ own thread, but I personally find the entire concept hilariously contradictory. The methodology both (a) starts with the basic assumption that every single human being who applies is a lying jerk who can’t be trusted one bit AND (b) requires the candidate to put together a reference list for the interviewer to check.
          Like…if you’re really *that* convinced candidates are lying to you, why in the world are you trusting their references? “Oh, well, he might be covering up fraud, massive misuse of company resources, and the fact he stabbed someone at a previous job, but there’s no way he’d stoop so low as to write a fake name on a list!”

          1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

            I only learned about this a few weeks ago but it seems insane. If I ever apply somewhere that is using this system I will withdraw my application ASAP because I don’t want to work for someone who assumes I’m a pathological liar before they’ve even met me.

    4. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Oh, I hate when applications ask for the start and end date of your education, for a slightly different reason. I took a five-year hiatus (and worked full-time) between the time I started college and the time I graduated. On my resume, I listed the years as “Teapot University XXXX – YYYY; ZZZZ.” But of course online applications don’t allow for that – just a start and end date. It always looks like I was in school for 10 continuous years!

      1. whistle*

        Ugh! If you finished a degree, that’s all that should matter. Who cares how long it took? Honestly, if this was me, I would just put the start date four years before the end date. That’s probably not good advice, but I’m so OVER this nitpicky specific crap in online application systems (hence my original post….)

    5. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Oh, how could I forget applications that have college GPA as a mandatory field, especially for non-entry level positions? I’ve been out of college for many years. I don’t remember my GPA!

      1. Hamburke*

        I remember mine – I actually had the same gpa thru high school and college, just barely missing honors for both. Probably wouldn’t have remembered if I earned honors or if I didn’t spend 8 consecutive years with the same gpa… But yes, 20 years later, it doesn’t matter!

  84. LondonEngineer*

    Any advice on how to cope at work when you have nothing to do? I thought I was being conscientious when I gave notice a while ago timed so that my last day would fall just after we are due to submit the project I am working on right now – with a longer period than I had to.

    Somewhat inevitably there has been some kind of cock-up on the client end and they are temporarily unable to pay us to continue, so the whole project has been put on hold and everyone who was working on it is scrambling to find something else to do… with no real idea of how long it will take to restart (maybe 2 weeks? maybe a month…by which time I will be gone).

    As I am leaving I can’t really do the professional development stuff that would normally be suggested for downtime and there are only so many pages of AAM archives I can read….. Any suggestions welcome.

    1. Colette*

      Is there personal development you can do that will help you in the future (i.e. your company won’t send you on training, but is there an online course you could do)?
      Can you document any of your work so that your coworkers can refer to it once you’re gone?

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      If there’s truly nothing you can do for work or your development and you’re on Goodreads (which I recommend!), most of the books on the site offer a preview of the first chapter or two. I like to look at the recommended books, or just random ones off of curated lists that look good, and read the preview. It’s fun, kills some time, doesn’t look as outlandish as reading an actual book at your desk, and it helps curate your reading list!

    3. Uncle Bob*

      I’m not sure what kind of engineer you are but when I was in a similar situation I paid for some certifications and classes with my own money. A month free is priceless and if it costs you a couple hundred out of pocket it’s worth it. If that doesn’t work here’s some other ones.

  85. ThursdaysGeek*

    I have a house guest – do people here have any ideas for how to help her find a job, or at least encourage her better?

    For the previous several years, she was caring for a spouse in another state, who then died. So she has no recent work history. She has no high school diploma or equivalency, and not much in the way of skills. She does have transportation, but she was living in a very small community, and it takes her time now to be willing to drive on a new road. (She also had cataracts, so really didn’t travel much for a long time.) She also has anxiety, so lots of noise, children, chaos – they all stress her out a lot. Oh, and she has bad credit!

    She would probably do well working as a maid in a hotel, but so far that hasn’t panned out. She got turned down for a mini-mart cashier because of her credit. The local day job option means driving to a lot of different places.

    What are some similar jobs to hotel maid, or other fairly simple work? She can do some simple office work, but with no experience, she’s not competitive.

    Or, how do I encourage her at least? She’s pretty discouraged now.

    1. RandomU...*

      Hmmm… doesn’t sound like there are a lot of options here. Besides the cataracts is she able to do physical labor? I’m assuming so since hotel maid was an option.

      Any warehouse/mfg/light assembly in the area? Usually they will require a diploma or GED, but maybe not in all cases. Especially in a robust job market. Summer is coming soon (allegedly!) is landscaping an option? Sometimes people with small crews/businesses will make some concessions about having employees meet at one location then driving to the site with the boss or other coworkers.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        She can do landscaping work too, and if the snow here ever melts, that is also an option. Although she’ll need year round work in order to support herself long term.

        I’m going to make a list of all the suggestions – like the caring for the elderly – she’s already done that with the spouse. And then I’ll encourage her to take the list of ideas that she likes to her counselor, and that should at least be encouraging to her. There are plenty of jobs out there she can do. Searching for work is so discouraging.

        1. RandomU...*

          In the meantime she really needs to be working on her GED. This is going to be the biggest hurdle for her.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            I admit, I hadn’t even thought of her getting a GED, and I’m sure she hasn’t either. She’s nearing retirement age, but she’s never going to be able to retire. If she could get slightly better jobs, that will make a long term difference even now.

            1. RandomU...*

              I’m shocked that the career services didn’t say anything about this. I think very few places outside of retail, ff, and small business owners like landscaping that will hire w/out a diploma or GED.

        2. J Kate*

          I work in senior care and it could be a great option for her. A lot of our great candidates come from backgrounds like hers. It’s different from a typical job which I think is why non-typical candidates are often more successful. And it’s something that there’s no shortage of a need for. See if there’s a home care agency in your area and if she can apply there. (BTW, I know it’s the subject of much derision on this site, but walking in to apply tends to be successful in this type of job, perhaps because it’s such a personal business.)

      2. Wishing You Well*

        Some nursing homes hire people with no high school diploma/no GED.
        I also hope she’s exploring all the government help she might qualify for.
        Really wishing the best for her.

    2. LCL*

      This is above your pay grade. The best way for you to help is to research what local programs there are for people reentering the workforce, and steer her to them.

      1. elemenohp*

        Agreed. If you’re in the US, find out where your local workforce development agency is. They help people who face barriers to employment find jobs. Hopefully, they would be able to help.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        She is working with a counselor at a local mental health clinic, which has resulted in the cataracts being fixed, drivers license, upper dentures, meds, and other health care. But still no job. Although, now that I list that, they have done quite a bit. Sure, it’s been about 6 months, but there has been a lot of progress. The job will come too. And then housing.

        1. Thursday Next*

          That is quite a lot to have taken care of in 6 months! I echo the suggestion to encourage her to get her GED. Any local resources on how to do that would be a good thing to steer her toward.

      3. LCL*

        replying to myself to add that providing her housing is a fantastic help and a blessing.

    3. Colette*

      What about something like Subway or a luggage store, or similar low-chaos fast food or retail?

    5. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      What about looking into a care-taking job? Maybe she can work with people with disabilities, visit seniors, or drive for transportation companies like Comtrans? Quieter than kids.

    6. Not A Manager*

      How about housecleaning for private clients? Depends on where you live, of course. An agency might reject her due to her credit, but in some areas people hire by word of mouth and are pretty lax about background checks. It only takes one or two satisfied clients to establish some references and referrals.

      1. valentine*

        Is the credit issue based on fear she might steal?

        Does your area have Craigslist gigs?

        Do you have a local library that can help?

    7. Bluebell*

      Right now there is a shortage of nursing assistants, and if you do searching, there could be a training program nearby. The caring for her spouse is a good foundation for that.

    8. Anono-me*

      Moving companies often are good places for second chances, especially smaller independent ones. Some hire people just to pack up boxes. It is hard work, but doesn’t require muscles upon muscles. It might be a good place to start.

      Long term, once your friend gets her GED, she might want to look at federal jobs. There are lots of low threshold opportunities and she might even be able to retire. (But any federal employee should plan financially for a shutdown.)

    9. Healthcare Worker*

      Has she considered laundry? Most medical facilities, nursing homes and so forth, hire individuals to work in laundry. Or a laundry company. Might be an option.

  86. Sapphire*

    Y’all, I’m stumped on what to do about this (admittedly minor) issue. I usually wear noise-cancelling headphones at my desk so I can concentrate, but I also tend to get startled if people try to approach me from behind. Is there a way to indicate that people who need to ask me a question will have better luck if they come at me from the front?

    1. JocelynX*

      I wish I had advice, but I’m in the same boat (and have nearly elbowed a coworker in the face before, accidentally). It’s getting to the point where I’m wondering about putting a little mirror on the cube wall in front of me, so I can see movement behind me.

    2. irene adler*

      Can you post a sign on the back of your chair that says something along the lines of “Headphones on- approach from the front please”?

    3. Anono-me*

      You might have better luck putting up a mirror. Most auto parts stores have mirrors with sticky backs; and office or school supply places sometimes have ones with magnets for in lockers.

    4. Anon Admin*

      I also say get a mirror. We transitioned to cubes a few years ago and, normally I’m not a jumpy person, but when people would walk up behind and tap my shoulder it freaked me out. The mirror helped tremendously. Make sure it has a sturdy base.

  87. NicoleK*

    TLDR: Being very candid with the boss about a problematic coworker, does it ever work out when boss is conflict avoidant?

    My BEC coworker is pretty much incompetent at half her tasks. She’s been in her role for 6 years and is still needing help with Outlook, printing documents, and etc. She’s unorganized, struggles with technology, and struggles with writing and email composition. She gets help all the time from different people on the team. She also takes three times as long to complete her tasks. Our Manager is very passive, conflict avoidant, and doesn’t really manage people. Yesterday, Manager scheduled a meeting a month out to discuss improving efficiencies and she asked for my thoughts on what we could do to be more efficient. I have no idea if our Manager is truly aware of how incompetent BEC coworker. Manager really has no clue most of the time what her team members are doing. Should I even bother being candid with the Manager? In my gut, I feel nothing will change even if I say something.

    1. Kathenus*

      There’s another question above about a bad employee as well. Generally, I think you should be honest with your manager, but do so calmly and professionally, focused on specific behaviors and problems versus more personality-related issues. And don’t enable the coworker and protect her – or the organization – from her poor work. Don’t keep helping with Outlook, printing, etc. Let her send out poorly composed documents and emails. Let her take three times as long and let manager wait for the project versus helping her out to get it done more quickly. If coworker and manager are the two who have to deal with slow or poor performance, those consequences may lead to changes. But if you or other coworkers fill in for the poor work, there’s no reason for either of them to change the status quo.

  88. Birch*

    Am I losing my mind? How do you deal with communication issues that should not be issues?

    Several times I’ve had an issue where A, who I co-manage, will find out information or decide to make changes to an existing protocol and then either tell no one or tell F, and neither of them tell me even though both of them know I will be the next person to interact with that protocol. Today I came in and needed to pay out some cash–we have a system where we return a form to Finance and Finance gives us cash. We were missing the form but didn’t have the corresponding cash, which I need tomorrow. A is on holiday. Then B comes by and said that A told her he turned in the form yesterday but she should pick up the cash today. Finance says they didn’t see A. So I call A and apparently he just left the form on the desk without checking with anyone. B and I spent an hour trying to sort this out, including having to call A, getting voicemail, and calling back. A had sent an email with details about today and tomorrow but didn’t include anything about the money (although he did include some tips on how to do my job, for the third time this week). If A had just told ME we needed to go get the cash, none of that time would have been wasted. I was already interacting with the cash today, so he should have realized that I would notice the balance was off and it would have been so easy just to go get it. As if that isn’t enough, A has apparently sent out some confidential information via email but either sent it from his personal email or deleted the trail, which is a matter of data protection. This kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME even though I have repeatedly gone over the protocols, explained why we do it this way, asked if A needs help, etc. etc. etc. I’m at my wits’ end and starting to think I’m the one losing my mind. No one else seems to notice this time wasting, potentially dangerous situations. I’m extra on edge this week because last weekend I got reported by an admin who basically accused me of lying about breaking policy (I did not in fact break policy) and my Toxic Boss took her side, and other less important but aggravating things like my new officemate refused to lock our door even though I reminded her that it was in the security manual, ended up locking herself out because she didn’t carry her key with her and I had to come back from home to let her in, etc. etc. and the other day randomly turned to me and said “you’re right, the security induction says we’re supposed to lock our doors.” Because she didn’t believe me the first time I said it….? Why has it taken her 6 weeks to complete the HR induction program? It’s also just common sense in a place where we store confidential information and OUR PERSONAL BAGS that has no security entrance!

    I have about a hundred stories like this. Sorry for the vent, I’m really just looking for someone to tell me I’m not losing my mind and it’s possible for a toxic workplace to turn otherwise reasonable people into nightmares. At this point I’m starting to think it’s somehow all my fault because how can this many people make this little sense all at the same time?!

    1. Colette*

      Do you manage A or co-manage with her? Because if you manage her, you need to start managing her. If you manage with her, you can try sitting down with her to discuss the issues with not telling you what’s going on.

      But if you boss is toxic, is this a place you want to work? (Maybe it is, but it’s worth asking the question.)

      1. Birch*

        I co-manage A with my boss. I don’t have any power, but I do all the day-to-day managing because boss does nothing. How do I manage people who don’t follow directions like this? It makes me feel like I’m the one not understanding the problem. I have sat down with A multiple times, explained why we do things this way, asked him to follow directions, asked him to document changes to protocols and keep me updated, and he still doesn’t–or he does with some things and not others. It’s not humanly possible to explain the directions any clearer. Sometimes there’s a reason he’s done it differently but he hasn’t documented that reason, and often he just says “oh okay” and doesn’t give any reason–but this happens multiple times in a week. The only thing I can do that’s actionable is to tell my toxic boss that there are issues with him, but I also don’t want to throw him under the bus because who knows what toxic boss might do.

        I’m currently seeking mediation for the issues with my boss that are a whole other story.

        1. Colette*

          It sounds like the problem is that you are trying to manage A without actually having any authority to do so.

          Again I suggest you reconsider whether you want this job. Assuming you do, have you tried asking A what happened every time? I.e. “A, I couldn’t find the form for the cash – what happened?” “A, you told B you turned the form in but the other group couldn’t find it – what happened?”

          Also, is A generally a good employee? Because it is definitely not your job to protect him from his co-manager (toxic boss).

          1. valentine*

            If you can’t manage A and venting via writing murder mysteries wouldn’t help, you’ll need to leave. There are workplaces where people have and use their common sense (and don’t pull sexist crap like telling their manager how to do her job).

            1. valentine*

              And don’t do them extraordinary favors like returning from home. Put them on DND between shifts. Flames/face.

  89. softcastle mccormick*

    Does it make me seem incompetent to wonder if our department needs more management?

    I’ve worked for a year on a team of 7 in an office with multiple divisions. We originally had a manager, who not only monitored our reports and SLAs, but also communicated with vendors and handled escalated issues, as well as communicating with our department head/grand-boss. After the first three months of working there, our manager left the company, and her position was never filled. Our grand-boss then left, and her position was filled by a very, very busy dual manager who also oversees a completely separate department.

    In the time since, we’ve managed to meet our goals and keep the ship afloat, but have struggled in other areas. Our grand-boss has no idea of the day-to-day tasks of our positions, and struggles to understand our processes. She also is expected to approve our time off, which is hard for her because she doesn’t understand the daily demands of our team, and when one of us can be spared for vacation or a day off. She is so busy that weeks have gone by where we don’t even see her, beyond her walking quickly through the office. When issues crop up, we either have to ask another department manager to assist, or track our grand-boss down, which is not always my preferred method because she takes a very “scorched earth” approach to dealing with issues from other departments. Additionally, some of my teammates struggle with staying on task and in their lane, so we have no one to deal with behavioral issues and interpersonal conflicts.

    I don’t know what to do about this, because it’s really starting to get frustrating. I am very certain that our grand-boss will react negatively (or at least strongly) if I bring up the desire to have a team manager, and will take from it that we can’t lead ourselves or are not doing good enough work. She has a strong personality and seems occasionally suspicious of work not being completed, and I don’t want to make her think we aren’t capable. There are myriad other issues at play with our whole department and certain coworkers, but I think at least having a manager will help immensely with certain things. Any thoughts?

    1. softcastle mccormick*

      I should also note: not one person on our team is qualified for a promotion to manager. These are all “entry level” positions, and none of us have had management experience before. In the case of myself and two other members, it is our first position post-college or post-retail. The other four members either don’t have the necessary experience or time in the company, or have personal work styles that make them not suitable for management.

    2. nonymous*

      Can you have a designated “lead”, at least for time off issues? That way instead of fielding 7 streams of leave requests, she can be presented with a holistic view of time off for the entire team, and skips the back and forth chatter of “We can’t both be off that week – who will run the TPS reports?”

      The manager can also set up some general rules for coverage for the lead to follow, like minimum coverage needs and how to pick if multiple people request the same time off. One place I worked at had a paper monthly calendar on the wall next to the “leave rules”, and people would pencil in their requests. Then once a month a supervisor – we had three who rotated this duty – would look at all of them and formally add it to the master schedule (or reject it if they were being sneaky).

  90. Manon*

    Does anyone have experience taking time off after college before entering the workforce? I’m thinking of applying to the Teaching Assistant Program in France, which would entail 7 months of working as a TA in a Francophone country.

    When I graduate, I’ll have 3 years of experience at a work study job in my desired field plus some additional internships, but I’m wondering if taking time off would make me a less appealing candidate.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Not sure what field you’re looking to go into, but personally, I would view the TAP as working experience, and I’d be pretty interested in your application after seeing something like that!

    2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      I almost did this exact program! Be aware, you don’t get to choose where they place you – I ended up opting out because I didn’t want to live in the region they picked out. One of my best friends did end up doing it though, and I would say absolutely go for it. A lot of people I know who are later in their career regret not taking time off to do something like that before they had a ton of career/life commitments, and it can be a great thing to talk about in interviews. Out of curiosity, what is your field?

    3. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I wouldn’t consider that taking time off, I would consider that working.

    4. Talvi*

      I did this program back in 2012, if you’ve got any practical questions!

      That said, I went to grad school afterwards, so I can’t speak to immediate job prospects (but teaching experience is useful to have in my field, so I’d call it an asset)

      1. Manon*

        I have SO many questions, if you have the time to answer!

        What was your experience finding housing like? I’ll have student loans when I graduate (all federal)- if you did, were you able to defer them? What did you do during the time between graduation and the start of the program in October? Did you apply for grad school while still in France, or apply when you got back to the US?

        1. PookieLou*

          I wrote a big ol’ response below, but I hope you don’t mind that I chime in here as well.

          Some schools will offer help finding housing (or even have a TAP apartment set aside, like mine did.) If nothing else, they should know what previous assistants have done. Once you are placed, you might look for groups on social media for alumni of your region. They can help with specifics for that area. The other assistants in my area found rooms for rent online.

          I was able to defer my student loans. I worked a couple of hourly jobs in college, which I continued all summer until I left, minus the final week which I spent with my family. You’ll want to save up as much as you can to cover expenses until your first TAP paycheck. It’s also essential if you want to travel much or you get placed in a really expensive area.

          Apply for your post-TAPiF venture while in France! Depending on what it is, the application process will remain the same, you’ll benefit from peace of mind, and there’s a better chance you won’t have an awkward amount of time to fill when you return.

        2. Talvi*

          Sorry this took so long – I was away from my computer!

          I was fortunate in that the school provided housing, so I didn’t have to do it on my own. If this is offered to you, take it – it’ll almost certainly be less expensive than anything you can find on your own. If this isn’t available (and chances are actually good – from what I was told, schools that have housing available for assistants are more likely to get an assistant assigned to their school), then definitely ask your contact at the school what previous assistants did.

          Also, ask your contact at the school if they might put you in touch with the previous year’s assistant – they’ll have a lot of good advice. (I got a whole document laying out things like how to open a bank account and what you need to set up internet, etc.)

          I didn’t have student loans, so I cannot speak to that (I’m also in Canada and have no idea how US federal loans work). As for the time in between graduation and heading over to France, I worked – I had a position in my university library that kept me on through the summer after graduation, and I wanted to save up as much as I could – it’s only 12 hours a week, after all, and I know I had a hard time breaking even. I was very glad to have that extra buffer (which also helped me travel a lot during school holidays).

          I did apply for grad school while I was in France. I actually wrote the GRE in Paris, if that’s something you’re worried about.

          As PookieLou mentioned below, if you’re under 26, you’ll be eligible for a ton of reduced rates (as well as free admission to most museums and monuments with your visa). One thing I recommend getting right away is the carte 12-25 for the SNCF (you will need to have a France-sized ID photo with you for it, as they will glue this photo to the pass). It’ll get you up to 50% off of train travel (25% off at peak travel times).

    5. PookieLou*

      Do TAPiF! You will gain experience and meet contacts you never would otherwise. You only teach part-time, so you can do other work on the side or travel around Europe while you’re young and have potentially fewer obstacles than you might in the future. (If you aren’t already an EU resident and you’ll be under 26 when you go, your work Visa will get you tons of discounts for travel, museums, etc.)

      If you couldn’t tell, I did TAPiF. I went right after college. It’s an amazing work opportunity that nobody will interpret as taking time off. I didn’t have much work experience when I left, and I am convinced that putting it on my resume helped me get my first full-time “big girl” job. You obviously have to weigh the pros and cons yourself, but if your ability to get hired later is your biggest concern, GO FOR IT.

  91. AnotherChanceMaybe*

    I’ve searched the archives for advice on going above your boss so my grand boss can be clued on my boss’s lack of management. For some context, it’s a case of someone good at their job being promoted to a role when they clearly have never led a team before and has no experience with the role. The result of having a bad boss is that our new has a poor reputation with our service areas. Also, we now just go to the grand boss on issues/questions as our boss often always responds with I don’t know – “let me ask grand boss” and then forgets about it. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    The advice Allison gives is don’t go above your boss’ head and try instead to work with your boss. If that fails, look for another job. With that in mind, I began managing up and am now burnt out from doing so. There are some other little issues too, but this is the one that broke the camel’s back. I started looking for another job and am quite far in the process with one promising place. Yet, I still want to give my organization another chance. I’m working in some exciting areas and I’m hesitant to leave a job after being here for less than a year. That’s why I’m thinking about going to my grand boss and telling them about what’s going on. I’m hoping that the grand boss will take the feedback well and move me to reporting directly to them. I’m left with wondering what to do when I want to give my job another chance but hate my bad boss.

  92. Tigger*

    Hey Guys,
    I need some advice for employee reviews. I hope this isn’t buried too much in the comments.

    I work in a very niche company so my role is very complex. I have been working here for 8 months and have learned a lot in that span but there is so much to learn that it takes years to be 100% proficient in this role. On Monday my boss told me to fill out an employee self-eval. The scoring was out of 4.
    4- was exceeds expectations 3- meets expectations 2 – Falls Short on Expectations 1 – Does not Meet Expectations.

    I am 8 months into this role. My predecessor retired in December so I got a “promotion” but there has been an adjustment because the retiring employee was the worst trainer I have ever come across. He left me no notes or manuals to cover his responsibilities so I feel on my own. My Boss seems happy with my work (and the CEO based in our home office loves me) but he does get short with me sometimes because he is used to working with someone for the past 12 years as opposed to me. My boss has also been in this field for 40 years so sometimes he forgets that things he knows off the top of his head is stuff I am still learning.

    I gave myself a lot of 3’s and 2.5’s because I am still learning some aspects so a 2 would be dishonest but so would a 3. I am just so scared I screwed myself over or they are secretly not happy with me. I have been in roles that management has told me I am a rock star to my face but when it came to reviews they tore me apart.
    Do you think I am over thinking this?

    1. Middle Manager*

      I would rate yourself as at least 3s if you think you’re not behind on your progression. When I rate probationary employees in their roles (that take 2 years to learn but we only have 6 months probation) I don’t think it’s fair to rate them against the full 2 year staff. I’m usually thinking something along the lines of 1. Have they shown steady growth and 2. If they are about half way to the time I would expect them to be fully functional, are they similarly half way towards knowing the role?

      1. Tigger*

        Well I already turned mine in. My boss knows I am very very hard on myself so I hope that takes that into consideration.

    2. Overeducated*

      I wouldn’t rate yourself “falls short on expectations” unless you feel like you’re actually struggling in certain areas. Of course there’s more to learn, maybe that’s why you shouldn’t rate yourself all 4s, but if you think you are where you should be at 8 months I would go with 3s. (For context, I had my last annual review around 6 months in my job, and I got mostly 3s because I wasn’t experienced enough to “exceed” but my boss had no performance concerns so I wasn’t “falling short.” I think I got one 4 based on my work on a process we were reconsidering.)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s okay. Don’t stress out about it! You mention that your boss knows you’re hard on yourself and to be honest, I’m the same way. My “expectations” are actually way higher than my bosses 99.999% of the time. I am shy of 100% because I had one…really horrid boss to screw up my stats ;)

          For real though. You gave yourself a 2.5, they’ll know that’s you acknowledging you have room to grow into your confidence. I see your justifications clearly and if your bosses promoted you so quickly, they will understand why you’re being hard on yourself as well.

          Self evaluations are kind of just used to see if you’re on the same wave length as your bosses. It’s better to show that you’re cautious about tooting your horn and dancing in victory so early on.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              You can talk yourself off the cliff, I completely understand where you’re at right now. You are grinding your gears here and that’s a good way to get the energy out! Transfer the energy to think of something else if it’s possible for you. Keep learning, keep swimming xoxo!

        2. Overeducated*

          Aah sorry! Well hopefully your boss will think you’re selling yourself short and rate you higher. Honestly I had no idea for my first review, especially since my duties had changed drastically in those first six months, and I pushed back on the self-rating for exactly this reason.

  93. Shiny Gift*

    One of my directors wants me to help him purchase a strand of pearls as a gift for a client, around $250. Long strand is not needed, a choker would be fine. Any idea where I could look for something of good quality but not horribly expensive? Thanks!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Pearl Source: lovely things with a wide range of prices. Online only I think—I’ve bought many things and never been disappointed. For $250 he might also consider a pendant or earrings.

    3. Not A Manager*

      Bourdage Pearls in Chicago is a bricks and mortar store but they also have an online presence. My few experiences buying from them were quite good, but it was a while ago.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Keep in mind that people have different sized necks. If the recipient has a bigger neck, the choker will need to be longer.

  94. Christina*

    I’m a project and operations manager for a growing academic R&D center. We’re moving to a new space in the next month and my boss (and the center’s director) has already started to try to convince me the best place for me to sit would be the reception desk. I’ve already expressed to her that being at the reception desk will be a major issue for my workflow and that it will be difficult for me to concentrate and get anything done because of the number of interruptions I’ll need to field daily. She says that it won’t be an issue. I absolutely know it will. We will be hiring an executive assistant and this would be the ideal desk for them. Any advice on how to effectively express my concerns so I don’t end up at the reception desk?

    1. RandomU...*

      This is something to spend capital on…

      “Boss, the reception desk is not going to work. Unless I’m being demoted to receptionist, and if that’s the case then we need to be having another discussion, I will not be able to get my work done. From what I understand we will be hiring an EA, and that person would be the better option to sit in that front line work space. ”

      Then you’ll need to add in some specifics to your role that is not compatible with that location. An example would be if you spend any time on conference calls or client calls, let them know that you won’t be able to break from those for interruptions. Or if you work with sensitive data that may be visible to the public as you’re working.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And document storage. Reception desks have minimal file storage. And who’s going to answer the phone while you’re in meetings about operations, contracts, employees, etc.?

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, I’d definitely bring that up because I’m wondering if they’ve decided not to have a receptionist and just combine those jobs.

    2. WellRed*

      yeah, no. I am not a receptionist either and am not in line of sight of the door, but I am the first desk they come to now that my space has been moved. I frequently sign for packages and give directions. I don’t have to do this, but in my case, I decided to suck it up with a smile. It helps that it’s only a few times a day.

  95. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I haaaaaate the academic job market, and I’m not even on it. My partner got rejected from a great job because of possible administrative issues with a government agency; basically, if a major change is announced, the hiring managers will likely switch departments, so they didn’t want to hire my partner because of the off-chance he may not be working under them. (It’s slightly more complicated than that.) This would have been a great option for him and may still be on the table, but we won’t know for sure for at least another month if the option to re-apply will come up (he was encouraged to do so in that situation). Then he found out that one of his references is essentially telling people that he should be looking at post-docs instead of permanent positions, but he hadn’t heard that before and he doesn’t know which reference it is. He is crushed, I am angry, and his options now feel like they are kind of slim.

    He has an offer, though not a final one (no number yet), from a firm for a position that is being created for him. It’s a good offer and a very flexible one, but my partner is so concerned about his future prospects that he keeps waffling. I woke up this morning wanting to tell him to take the offer because the money would be so good, but that’s not the only reason to take a job, as I know quite well. At this stage, he plans to stall the firm’s offer as much as he can (and they volunteered to give him a whole lot of time) and continue to apply for post-docs and visiting jobs, but we both thought we would be done with this by now and have a clear plan.

    Anyone who’s been there, please send me some encouragement. This part blows.

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m sorry. This is so hard. I went through it before I decided to go another way, and my partner is still holding out for that tenure track job in an acceptable location to both of us (after one postdoc, one visiting position, and now postdoc #2). Having uncertainty that lasts for so long is really hard, between how slow the hiring cycle is and how it sometimes takes multiple years to get settled.

      So I have mostly sympathy, not much encouragement, except that if you can limit the search to locations that are OK for you it’s not so bad. By now I feel like it’s not the uncertainty of changing jobs that’s so hard, it’s the threat or reality of constant moves for short-term positions. We’re just getting tired of it and looking at buying a house and expanding our family where we are now due to my job, and if we have to sell the house sooner than planned because he gets an amazing opportunity elsewhere that doesn’t require me being unemployed forever, we’ll deal with that when we get to it. If you can limit long-distance moves for postdocs and visiting positions, the process will be easier on you.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Thanks! It’s just so discouraging. We’ve already kind of decided that I won’t move for a one-year post-doc and I probably wouldn’t move for a visiting job unless the location was really great. No family and no plans for kids, so at least we have flexibility. What really sucks is that everyone else in his cohort who was on the market got a position… and they’re crappy positions, but of course THEY have jobs and HE doesn’t so he feels like a failure. But he does have this offer, which he’s in the middle of negotiating, and the more I think about it (and the more I read your response) the more I think he should take it and make it work for him. G-d knows the money is good (the range they gave him starts at what I make, and he asked for $5k over that).

        1. Overeducated*

          Oh man, the psychological pressure of academic “success” is so strong. Even though it’s better for many of us to hold out for a job that’s a good fit than take any crappy position that comes along, it’s hard not to FEEL like a failure when comparing yourself to others, even if you don’t actually THINK that. So I get where he is right now.

          Good luck to him in figuring this out! Everyone’s different – I would take it, I have a very “bird in the hand, take the money and run” kind of approach to my career, but my husband is much more of a “can’t give up on my dream, which is being a tenure track professor” type, and is therefore much pickier and much less inclined to follow the money. It’s just a question of what compromises he is willing to live with. Either way I’m sure it won’t be the last opportunity out there, even if you can’t see the next one yet!

    2. Buu*

      He needs to find out which reference it is! and find out why they are saying that.If that’s what they think they should have told your husband to his face, not to an employer. It’s a crappy thing to do without telling him. From there he can decide if he wants to use them for a reference or potentially warn employers e,g
      ” Since you need two references I’ve put Prof Stark down, as he can attest that I did great work. I’d just like to warn you he’s insistent I do a post-doc, and will likely tell you that. I disagree and am excited about this role but wanted to give you a heads up.”

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I keep urging him to find out, but I think he’s embarrassed. Also, he thinks it may be his advisor, which would be EXTRA crappy because all positions require a reference from him. It just sucks.

        1. Hope*

          He really needs to find out. It could be as simple as getting someone to call up his references while pretending to be a potential employer, if he doesn’t want to call them himself and have an awkward conversation. It’s better to know than not know, so he can figure out how to deal with it (because it *might not* be his advisor!).

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            They’re letters, not phone calls, in academia. So it’s not too difficult to find out, he just doesn’t want to ask because he’s afraid of looking belligerent or something. I have a feeling it’s someone who said something like, “ALB’s partner is good, but I think he’d be great with one more year,” but phrased it extremely poorly.

    3. VAP*

      I’m on the academic job market right now for the third year in a row, and it is the worst. If I had a good offer doing something I liked pretty well, I’d leave academia in a heartbeat–so I’m biased, but I think that taking the other offer sounds like a great idea. I know that we can get so wrapped up in metrics of success in academia, but honestly at this point I feel like the best revenge is getting out and living a more balanced, less stressful, better-paid life than many of the people who stay in. (let’s note, I’m feeling pretty burned-out and bitter this week, I don’t really think that people in academia are all miserable).

      1. nonymous*

        One person from my grad school cohort self-funded her post doc and after three years (!!) of doing research for free finally got hired on in a non-TT position, where she will have to find her own grants after year one. In order to take this position, she (and her child and pet) are living in a basement apartment in a town one state over from her husband and the house they own near his work (he is not in academia). He comes over for one weekend a month and she goes home one weekend a month. I’m happy for her in that she gets to do the work she loves, but man does stuff like that skew the race to the bottom.

        1. VAP*

          I can’t even imagine being able to put up with that. I adore my current, temporary job in academia–but I just can’t understand loving it enough to put up with that. You’d have lost me at self-funded post-doc!

      2. Overeducated*

        It is the best revenge. Until your new manager says something like “we shouldn’t answer that question, we need to direct it to a subject matter expert. Do you know anyone at a university who studies that?” *headdesk*

        Anyway, since no jobs are perfect, but all jobs have their own advantages, I hope you find something that pays the bills, lets you have a life, and gets you off the merry-go-round of the job market soon – wherever it is! There is light at the end of the tunnel!

  96. Tired of nosy coworker*

    I have a nosy coworker “Nellie”. She’s asked about my family and parents. I was raised by a single mom. I have moms last name because we don’t acknowledge my biological father.

    My dad has been in prison most of his life so my mom didn’t want people to easily make a connection that we’re related. Nellie keeps asking about him and I’ve tried shutting her down “don’t want to bore you with details; and she responded she wouldn’t be bored. I’ve said “work and family is separate for me” and she’s kept asking. She’s a terrible gossip and I don’t want her talking to other people about it.

    How can I get her to drop it?

    1. it_guy*

      You can just say “I don’t want to talk about it, so please don’t bring it up again.”

        1. Quandong*

          Yes, this. Make your answer boring and predictable so she eventually loses interest in asking. And purposely change the topic after you reply.

    2. Anono-me*

      I don’t know if this would work for you, because you seem like you might be sweeter than I am.

      When people ask me a nosy question, I will either respond with a buzzer noise and tell them next question. Or I will say “Gosh, you are really nosy.” (Adjectives may very depending upon the situation. )

    3. Estranged family, the gift that keeps on giving*

      If it would help, I give you permission to use my story: My parents divorced whilst I was still in the womb and I haven’t seen my father since I was six.

      If you want to ram it home a bit more, add: He went on to start a new family and I haven’t gotten so much as a birthday card from him.

      I’ve found this tends to shut people down because there is no more story. I’ve never had anyone press me for more details. I couldn’t give them more if I wanted to.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I did something similar, after I had grabbed her by the arm and we went to HR, and I told all of that with witnesses. I then worked up a few years and left her there with the HR manager. Turns out she was doing genealogy on people in our department without anyone’s consent, looking up things in newspapers, etc. One man’s father had been a suicide—you can imagine.

        1. spaghetti and meatballs*

          Oh my goodness, that’s a nightmare. Did she get told off or fired? Or did they just accept it?

    4. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      Maybe turn it around? Give it a harder nunya?

      “We’ve already talked about this, did you forget? I keep my work and family separate.” When she comes back around with some variation of “well I just wanted…” You can be much ruder/direct with her. “You’re being awfully disrespectful of my wishes? Why is that?”

      1. fposte*

        I like that naming the behavior. She thinks she’s being a friendly, forgivable snoop. It’s useful to make clear that that’s not what’s happening.

    5. WellRed*

      How bizarre! Why does she even care? have you asked her that, actually? Or, maybe take a different direction and keep giving her wacky answers. “I was hatched by an egg.” “I sprang from the forehead of Zeus.” “My mother found me swaddled on a mountainside.”

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Point out her behavior to her and ask her why she’s persisting in personal questions.
      At some point, you might have to escalate to your boss or HR with this. Some people won’t stop.
      I had a relative do genealogy on all his in-laws to have them baptized without their knowledge into his faith. It doesn’t really matter why she’s asking – she’s over the line

    7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Yikes. I think you need to do what everyone else says and be extremely direct, even if it feels rude. “Nellie. I have told you that I keep work and family separate. I mean it. I do not want to talk about my family with you or anyone else at work. Please respect my wishes and do not ask me again.”

    8. ... cats and dogs*

      Agree with all of the above. Don’t get fed up and tell her anything to shut her down because that is what she wants. Sorry you have to deal with this person! Avoid her as much as possible too.

  97. Two Dog Night*

    TL;DR: I’m trying to figure out how to know what kind of jobs I’m qualified for. My “career path” has been non-standard, to put it mildly. I know what my technical skills, strengths, and weakness are, but I’m not sure how to find jobs that will use them, because there’s nothing that’s a close match to what I’m doing now.

    Details: I spent 12 years in the software industry after college, doing development, sales support, consulting, and QA, and eventually running a software development lab. I don’t want to go back into software, and I’d rather not manage people any more, although project management is fine.

    What I’m really good at is standardizing processes. I’ve been treasurer for two non-profits–in both cases I took systems in Excel and set them up in Quickbooks. At my current job I’ve standardized the processes for producing various reports. I’m usually brought into projects to first figure out what the data-related outputs need to be, then to figure out how to develop a process so that less-expensive employees can generate the outputs on an ongoing basis. (I’m working for a consulting company, and I’m ready to be done with consulting.)

    Technically, most of my current work is in MS Access and MS Excel, and I do a *lot* of VBA programming. I’m starting to work with SQL Server, but I haven’t written any stored procedures or anything complicated like that–just SQL.

    So what I’m trying to figure out is, unless I stumble across a MS Access programming job, how do I recognize what kinds of jobs I can do? Is this something a career coach can help with? (I’d be willing to give it a try, but I’m skeptical.) Do I need to work on different technical skills? I pick up languages and tech very, very quickly–but I’m horrible at hardware/network stuff, so I don’t want to go in that direction.

    If anyone has any ideas, I’d really appreciate hearing them. I’d like to start looking around, but I’m having no luck searching job sites–I feel like I just don’t know what keywords to use. TIA!

    1. Colette*

      Software Asset Management (i.e. tracking software licenses and purchases) – this requires the knowledge of software, but is not software development. Also, a lot of companies are just getting serious about this, and therefore there can be a lot of process work.

      Scrum master in an agile environment – not big on setting up processes, but you have to make sure everyone is on track and following the existing processes, and modify things as necessary. Really a problem-solving job.

      Software procurement – again, not necessarily process development, but a lot of making sure the i’s are dotted and the t’s crossed.

      Software packaging – large organizations often package the software so that they can deploy it over SCCM. Requires technical skills and basic knowledge of commercial software.

      Software testing might also be an option.

      1. Pescadero*

        Software Asset Management/Software procurement/Hardware Asset Management.

        They generally fall under the overall heading of IT Asset Management.

        That is what my wife does. The job is in HIGH demand, and there aren’t a lot of qualified people who want to do it. It’s particularly lucrative if you have certifications (CITAM, IAITAM, CAMP, etc.)

    2. elemenohp*

      Have you given any thought to business analysis? I’ve heard that’s an area where process-thinking and SQL and VBA skills could come in handy. (Full disclosure, I’ve never been a BA, but have just worked very casually with some.)

    3. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      Process Specialist (my job title)
      Anything with Quality in the name
      There’s a lot of DBA work around and it sounds like you’re 90% to qualified for that.

  98. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Another week on the Hellmouth, another Hellmouth write up. The search for a non-Hellmouth job continues, although I am currently exceedingly bummed out due to not getting two positions I was up for. But I’m trying to remember that every job that I don’t get brings me closer to the one that I finally do (and also that, really, it’s only been a few months and these things sometimes take a hot minute). I actually applied yesterday for a really great sounding position at Local Big University that would center primarily on things that I particularly love to do, so fingers crossed that I make it to the interview stage.

    The Hellmouth itself has had another influx of weird this week. I’m still having to bounce the same resident who has been banned from the office, but now I have residents making appointments with me because they believe that if they have an appointment it means that they get to scream at me for the full twenty minute block that they requested and I have to sit in silence for the full timeframe. This happened twice this week. Both residents were enraged to learn that no, that is not how that works. We also are experiencing an uptick in the really weird, with my boss making us all watch endless footage from one of the cameras in her office of what she claims are orbs/ghosts and another resident coming in and complaining that his apartment is very haunted. Apparently when he and his roommates moved in they felt a weird presence, which eventually progressed to seeing weird stuff, and as of this week the resident says that something invisible threw a spoon at his roommate. I do not think they will be renewing.

    We are no longer red tagged, although I think the boss is in real trouble over it because being on fire watch costs $840 per day and we were on it for many days… and we were already way over budget. This has left her with a large amount of ire to distribute, although for the moment her attention has slipped off of me and is squarely on the terrible new leasing consultant, McGruff. McGruff’s terrible behavior, inability to follow simple directives, and repeated attempts to work through her lunch break, work overtime, and openly work off of the clock have apparently both embarrassed and angered the boss. Since the boss only goes after one person at a time, she has suddenly started being REALLY nice to me and complimenting me on my work while telling me that she is giving McGruff assignments specifically to mess with her and asking me to report anything awful that McGruff does. I do not feel great about any of this, although McGruff does so many truly incompetent and unprofessional things that I’m not about to cover for her. I do have to kind of laugh about the fact that my boss goes to the good leasing consultant (who is a dude) to verify any troubling incidents or behaviors that I report to her (like when McGruff started dropping F-bombs in the office while people were around and threw her glasses) because “women are so dramatic” and she needs to know that I am being honest. Sure, boss. Whatever. Meanwhile, the maintenance supervisor keeps telling me really inappropriate stories, like the gem this week about a property manager that “did not wear panties.’ The phrase “she smiled at me, and not with her mouth” was used. Yes, I documented it and it is going into what is going to be a massive file for HR. I just want to get a little bit closer to having a new job lined up before I send it off. Ugh. SO. GROSS.

    In Hellmouth animal news, apparently 50-100 rats skittered out of the dumpster when it was being cleaned/repaired, and the residents are starting to see them pop up in non-dumpster areas. I suggested we pre-emptively contact pest control, but was shot down. In less gross animal news, we currently have a tiny and adorable armadillo hanging out under our office. McGruff has been lobbying to have it murdered because she insists it will give her leprosy. In a real even-a-broken-clock-is-right-twice-a-day moment, my boss informed McGruff that we absolutely will NOT murder the tiny armadillo and that McGruff’s fear of contracting leprosy from it can easily be laid to rest by her resolving not to crawl under the office and touch the armadillo. I will admit to enjoying this moment a little too much. Also, I’ve been leaving a little bit of fruit out by the porch as an armadillo treat.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        The armadillo under the office led to a lot of idle looking up stuff about armadillos, which is when I discovered that there is a chipmunk-sized armadillo and it is called A PINK FAIRY ARMADILLO and it is ADORABLE.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          If you really want to see something adorable, google armadillo playing with a toy.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        The big ones actually can give you leprosy. Not sure where McGruff came across that nugget of knowledge, but that’s per my zookeeper friend who is the go to person for what I can and cannot touch.

        2. TooTiredToThink*

          Considering where the Hellmouth is; it would likely be quite common knowledge. I used to live in the neighboring state and it was known.

        3. Gerald*

          I think we all agree – the OP specifically mentioned the ‘don’t crawl under the workplace and touch it’ point.

        4. Rural Resident*

          Armadillos can be tremendously destructive. The $840 a day will be nothing compared to the damage that thing cam do under your office. Did over $10000 damage under a friend’s hose in a few weeks time.

      3. Princess of Pure Reason*

        Ravelry has a “Armo, The Pink Fairy Armadillo” knitting pattern. Well, there’s my next project.

    2. Ama*

      I am glad you are getting a little break from the boss — but it is so weird that she’s incapable of being awful to more than one employee at a time (in my experience, bosses that hold grudges just tend to slowly expand the number of people they are mad at). For your sake I’m glad her focus is off you for now, though.

      Good luck with the university position! Having been through some university hiring processes, I’ll warn you they can be really, really slow (and will get exponentially slower as the number of people involved in the final hiring decision increases) so don’t lose hope if you don’t hear anything for a while.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I honestly think it’s partly because the office is so small that you can only drive off one person at a time or you run into the possibility of having no one working in your office, and part that she likes to feel like she has people to gang up with, maybe? It’s pretty weird. And it is the exact same pattern whether the target is actually messing up/a problem or just kind of there. The only constant is that it is basically always women.

        Thanks! Yeah, I’ve been warned about the glacial hiring pace… I have applications that have been in process for three other positions there for over a month now, heh. They’re all better positions than the two that I missed out on this past week, though, so having them slowly bubbling away on the back burner actually makes me feel less sad/panicky when I get a fresh rejection email.

      2. Delta Delta*

        I think that’s a pretty classic triangulation/divide-and-conquer strategy. Although, it seems like all things we thought might be normal are off in the hellmouth.

      3. Batgirl*

        Its a standard abuse technique to make one person feel more hopeless than if they were surrounded by people in the same boat.

    3. LondonEngineer*

      I am sorry that you are still going through this but on the other hand I now automatically ctrl-f ‘Hellmouth’ whenever I look at the Friday thread now

      5. Fact & Fiction*

        *guilty look* Um, I never do that. Nope, never. *whistles*

        To be fair, I am “not” doing that because I am desperately hoping you get a new job away from the Hellmouth soon!

        1. Marthooh*

          Be careful what you say. I was just about to deny ever page-searching “Hellmouth” when something invisible threw a spoon at me.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Nah, you can actually pet the Office Cat! That means they are at least tied.

        1. Free Meerkats*

          Well, Office Cat only lets me near him when I’m the only one in and therefore the designated cat feeder, otherwise I’m the evil hooman who trapped him and had his dangly bits cut off.

          The other guys get kitty attention.

    5. Bee's Knees*

      So are the rats going to fight the squirrels now, or are they going to gang up on something else together?

      And I’m glad that you’re getting a somewhat temporary reprieve from Boss’s particular brand of crazy while she focuses on McGruff.

      What does good leasing consultant think about all this? Like, does he get left out of a lot of the crazy, or does he get his own kind? I know from my job, people will be more pushy and rude with me (female) than they will with someone else that’s a dude.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I’m pretty sure that the rats are going to go after the Cat King. They will lose.

        Oh man, poor Good Leasing Consultant. He definitely gets his own kind. The boss is completely inappropriate with him in really gross ways, he is way overworked, and he also keeps getting saddled with all sorts of manual labor that really should not fall to him. And he is miserably stressed out by the environment. On top of all of that right now he is also basically having to redo all of McGruffs work because she is so incompetent. He has a job interview next week, and as much as I don’t want to lose the only nice and sane person in the office before I find a new job, I really want him to get out of here and someplace better/safer. Although once he goes the office is really screwed.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Yeah, I’m going to need a guest post or two from him when you finally get the blog up and going, to see things from his perspective.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        I’d say they will probably team up so that one rodent type is always “on shift” then they can go for the ideal of keeping pressure on 24/7. But perhaps the Orb/Ghosts and the rodents will start having issues. Or maybe if the orbs are small they are the spirits of the restless dead squirrels.

        Wow so crazy

      3. Hopeful Future Accountant*

        It’s actually going to be squirrels and rats teaming up against the geese.

    6. Asenath*

      I don’t suppose you could mention to McGruff or the boss my tale of Inappropriate Animal Removal in which the employees charged with getting rid of the rats (Hire professionals? Why?) poisoned them, but the rats all got into inaccessible places under the building before they passed on, causing an unbelievable stink? Or let them go ahead and eliminate all unwanted animals, and suffer the consequences (after you get a new job, of course)?

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        They can learn the hard way after me and Office Armadillo have both moseyed off. Life lessons are good! (I am so sorry for your poor nose.)

    7. Lizabeth*

      Have you considered writing up your adventures as a tv sitcom? I would so watch it….

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Heh, I think I’d need to have connections and also some concept of how pilots get made and picked up for that. But Micheal Shur, if you read this, call me!

    8. Hope*

      If the orb things are just in the camera, check and see if there are spider webs near/around it. Especially in a night-vision camera view, spiderwebs can look freakishly ghost-like.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It is night vision footage! I think they might be actually be caused by dust motes, but am not about to mention my theory if thinking it is ghosts will result in my boss spending less time in the office after hours messing with our stuff and planting spy devices everywhere.

    9. Karen from Finance*

      for the moment her attention has slipped off of me and is squarely on the terrible new leasing consultant, McGruff

      Called it!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Indeed. I just learned that my boss has sent a very lengthy letter to HER boss about McGruff… I’m not sure if she’s trying to get permission to write her up or just flat out let her go, but something is up. Also, my good leasing consultant told my boss that McGruff has threatened to walk out/quit multiple times when they have been alone together. My boss told him that the next time it happens she wants him to tell McGruff that she absolutely should.

    10. bookwormish2018*

      Can you just get a job temping? Anything would be better than this. Although I enjoy the updates every week, I also can’t believe how bad this situation is.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Honestly, the temp agencies in town are really terrible and I wouldn’t be willing to risk the instability. At least, not at this point.

    11. Armchair Analyst*

      Re: We also are experiencing an uptick in the really weird,
      As a data person, i would love to see these events categorized into “normal weird” “pretty weird” “shouldn’t be happening” “really weird” and “dangerous” and probably “other” and see these #s charted over time. Maybe they ARE connected to the full moon or Mercury retrograde… or, or… who knows!? We can’t know unless we have all the data!

      Good luck. I hope you’re rescued soon.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I would have to figure out the parameters for each category. Actually, I would probably need an outside person to categorize each incident—I have recently learned that my sense of normalcy is currently waaaaaay off in spite of my best efforts to retain it.

    12. Decima Dewey*

      “Also, I’ve been leaving a little bit of fruit out by the porch as an armadillo treat.”

      So you’re bribing the armadillo to give McGruff leprosy?

    14. Weegie*

      Squirrels, geese, now armadillos – and wasn’t there a snake in there once? (if there wasn’t, there should be…) It just keeps on getting better & better :-)

      I’m definitely going to be directing my knitting friend towards the armadillo pattern – she’s knitting birds right now, and I’ve commissioned a pink flamingo; a Pink Fairy Armadillo is surely the next logical project?

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        So. Many. Snakes. And they’re very active at certain times of the day.

  99. SciDiver*

    My grant-funded job ends in 3 weeks and I don’t have another job yet! I’ve been searching since November and gotten interviews with several great positions: one turned out to be not the right fit and all the rest have had candidates with slightly better/more experience. It’s better than straight-up rejections, but it’s so draining to keep getting emails saying “we think you’re great and the decision was incredibly tough but we’ve offered the position to another candidate who had more/better experience we couldn’t pass up”. Had another interview yesterday though, hopefully that will lead somewhere.

    1. Cheesecake2.0*

      I’m sorry that’s tough! Are you at a big institution? The universities I have worked at have “preferential hire” for people laid off due to loss of soft funding.

      1. SciDiver*

        I’m at a mid-size university, and while it’s sometimes the case that people can move around positions in my department (or even the school that houses it), that has trickled out for the most part over the last year or so–all the other soft-money funded staff I can think of ended up moving on. This past week was especially disheartening in the search, but I’m trying to stay optimistic.

  100. swingbattabatta*

    Any tips on making it through an all day interview while pregnant? I’m scheduled to fly into the city where the Company is located early that morning, sit in interviews for 6 hours (with approximately 20 people), and fly home that evening. I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to push through fatigue and take bathroom breaks as needed, but I’m more concerned about making sure I’m eating enough to keep me from getting faint or sick (I’m 6.5 months along, if that information helps). It’s a conservative industry, and I’m going to be doing my best to convince them to hire me despite the pregnancy, so I really don’t want to be casually whipping out granola bars while walking between meetings. I’m currently contemplating secreting some away in my bag and scarfing them down while in the bathroom, but….

    Any advise would be welcome!

    1. Overeducated*

      I’d consider telling the person scheduling your visit, if it’s an admin/assistant/someone different from the hiring manager, that you will need X number of Y minute breaks. Saying why, but that you’d like to be discreet about it, may help. I did this while I was interviewing while breastfeeding, never had any trouble getting a couple of 20 minute breaks worked into the schedule or getting shown to a private space to pump, and nobody on a hiring committee ever even mentioned it, so I’m not sure if they knew what the breaks were even for. If your breaks are just long enough to scarf a granola bar and go to the bathroom they will not be very noticeable but you will have dedicated time to be out of view.

    2. Anono-me*

      Can you drink things like Ensure in a pretty little Starbucks environmentally friendly coffee mug?

      Good luck.

  101. DouDou Paille*

    Anyone have advice on whether I am a bad fit in my new job, or just need to suck it up? I recently moved from an in-house “llama grooming” job to an agency, to get away from a crazy boss. At my new place I don’t seem to be finding my groove. They are sort of micro-managey, the new boss is very Type A, and I am starting to dread going to work every day. As a middle-aged woman who has been working for 25 years I am used to a fair bit of autonomy, but I feel like every email I send here is being scrutinized, every minute of my day has to be accounted for, and my expertise is being questioned. I am not at the same level as the seniors at the firm, but I definitely have more experience than the 22-year-old newbies — yet I feel that I am being subjected to the same level of oversight as them. I’m having a hard time determining if this is just because I am new and they need to get to know me before they fully trust me, or if this is just their culture. I am also quite laid back and direct, while they are quite high strung and overly diplomatic in their communications (ie couching everything in positives and niceness, but it rings false because I feel the undercurrent of bitchiness). Nothing here rises to the level of dysfunction and they are very good at what they do, but I just don’t know if I am well-suited to this company, or maybe to agency life? Anyone else out there work in an agency? Is this par for the course?

    1. Undine*

      I don’t know about the difference between agency/non-agency, but I do know the problem. I basically had to leave a job because I felt overmanaged. After that experience, I thought about it and here’s what I decided:

      There are two parts to a job, doing the work, and letting people know that you are doing the work (or even helping them feel that you are doing the work). The second is part of what I call “employment theater”. And it is part of the job. My big revelation was that your manager has to be able to tell her manager what you are doing at any given time. And for an agency, I can see that would be especially hard — the manager might get a call at any moment from a client, and it looks bad if they don’t know whether the llamas eye’s have been dyed to match their gowns.

      So the way out of this is to embrace it. Be proactive in your updates. Tell your manager what you’re working on, casually, in the hall. Like, “Today, I ran into a tricky problem in the Dali account, where there was no way to enter the llamas in the system, because they are made of chocolate. But I was able to work around it by using the special coding we developed for bunnies.” Or, especially since you are new, “At my old place, we got good results using the stiff brushes for the llamas and the soft brushes for the alpacas — is there any reason I shouldn’t do this here?”

      It can be really hard if you’ve already gotten off on the wrong foot, and the manager I tried this with isn’t type A, but it worked out for me. Eventually I built a level of trust — which goes both ways — and now I do have a lot of freedom, while still making sure to give updates. And I feel very comfortable bringing questions to my manager’s attention.

      2. Lazy Susan*

        “employment theater” Love it.
        And 2nd that the agency manager has to be able to account for the work progress and the staffing hours of the team to the client (which is why you might feel like “every minute of my day has to be accounted for”. )

    2. Kathenus*

      It could be a cultural thing. I have several decades of experience but am relatively new at my current organization. Because this organization has a vast majority of ‘home grown’ staff that have always worked here, there is a strong hierarchical/seniority culture in some departments – meaning what matters in some ways is your time at the organization versus your role or experience in the field overall. Can be frustrating, but once I figured out that it is the culture here it allowed me to compartmentalize it away most of the time versus taking it personally or letting it occupy too much mental space on a regular basis. Still wish it would change, but I can only affect that in small ways which I try to do.

      I don’t know how long you’ve been in the new role but it might take time to either find your place more and have people get to know you and your abilities more, or to find out if it is more of a cultural thing that won’t change.

  102. Circle84*

    I work in a role that’s a sort of afterthought – where I work is a programme to tackle HIV/AIDS overseas so the vast majority of the roles are cool ones, very exciting and at the forefront of delivering services in the communities we work. My role is in legal and compliance, so the kind of role my organisation ‘has to’ have because it exists, but a role that is pretty removed from the core/vast majority of the work the organisation does.

    As a result of this I feel very isolated at times and training and conference budgets are ploughed into the frontline workers (who do the exciting stuff!) and not me. On a rational level I understand why this is, but on a personal level I find it very demoralizing and increasingly so the longer I’m there. As policy is unlikely to change have you any experience or tips to share that would help me overcome how I feel about it on an everyday basis?

    Thanks

    1. LQ*

      I do work that is not client or delivery facing. I’m much better at this work so I imagine that helps. But framing it for myself that what I do enables that delivery work helps.

      I sort of refer in a big picture way to what we do as putting food on someone’s table. It’s real, it’s immediate, and it really f-ing matters! And I care about it! And what I do helps the people who help the people to make that happen. I’ve moved into a role where I’m not enabling today but the future so I’ve shifted a bit from, what I do puts food on people’s tables…to… what I do makes sure that we can still put food on people’s tables in 10 years.

      There is (an I assume apocryphal) story about JFK asking a janitor at NASA what he did and he said he help put men on the moon.

      Without the work you do your organization wouldn’t be able to continue to tackle HIV/AIDS overseas. That’s incredibly cool and important and really f-ing matters!

    2. Kathenus*

      I’m in a mission-driven field as well, and we are having a lot of discussion right now over how to make everyone feel that they are part of that mission no matter their role so that they feel more connected and understand how important what they do is to the work that we do.

      You mention professional development funding, but are there other things that you might be able to propose that don’t require the same amount of resources to help you (and others in similar situations) to get opportunities that help make you feel less isolated and more connected? Some sort of job-shadowing/exchange with someone in a mission-specific role for a few hours or a day? A more local professional development opportunity – maybe spending some time with a person in your role at another mission-driven organization in the community so you can network and gain insight and ideas from each other? I’m sure there are other ideas.

      All the while trying to chip away at the bigger topic with your management that you need to have people at all levels feel involved, supported, and given opportunities or they’ll end up going elsewhere (and probably making more) to use their skills and experience. Good luck!

    3. elemenohp*

      I feel you on this. I also have a role that’s very far removed from what most of the business does. There’s not anyone at the organization that really does what I do, and I’m very isolated. I basically sit in an office all day and don’t talk to anyone. It’s having a really negative effect on my mental health… I’ve been pretty depressed lately and realized that started when the only project I was working on that *did* involve working with other folks ended. I’ve come to the conclusion that this isn’t the right kind of environment for me, and will probably be looking for a more collaborative environment in my next job. I plan to ask a lot questions about culture and collaboration in interviews, so that I’m making a better choice.

      I know that finding a new job isn’t an option for everyone (and the timing isn’t right for me right now, either), but it’s a perspective to consider.

      In the meantime, what did help me a little bit was getting involved in an employee group (which, sadly, ended), and trying to make work friends outside of my department and learn about what they do.

    4. misspiggy*

      There’s a lot to be said for casually chatting and introducing yourself in the kitchen, being there at leaving dos and bar nights, and having friendly follow up conversations in the corridor. That can help people connect your work with theirs and bring you in more, such as when they’re reviewing a partnership contract or planning a training.

      Also, networking with senior people so you get invited to leadership meetings in the field is a good idea.

      Tl;dr: all the compliance people I’ve worked with who got more involved in the direct work of a nonprofit did it through personal networking.

    1. OtterB*

      So I think of skill as applied knowledge. If you have knowledge, but not skill, you might have something useful to contribute to a project but might be annoying to people who have both by trying to tell them things they already know.

      The only example I can think of where you might have skill without knowledge is if you know exactly how to do something, but don’t understand the “why” behind it. Which is likely to cause trouble if there is a problem somewhere, or something requires change to the process.

    2. Drax*

      skill over knowledge I think, but it’s all dependent on context.

      I know how to administer stitches but unless you want to look like a drunk toddler did it, you should probably go see someone skilled at it. But on the flip side, I know how to build a Wool Processing machines and why you need specific things to do it so while I’ve never actually physically done it, I would be very useful in guiding the sheep groomers to build one.

  104. something idk*

    Is it too snarky to close an email with “awaiting your word”? I’m so tired of my manager never answering my questions.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on the relationship you have with your manager. If you two have a good rapport and often joke with each other, that might fly. Otherwise, yeah, a little too snarky.

      1. something idk*

        Haha, well… I guess we’ll see!

        (Manager works remotely so most of our interactions have been 1. me sending emails into the wind without a response or 2. her sending me emails requesting scans of paperwork right now immediately. I do get on well with the head of the department, who I get most of my instruction from? But she and manager are related…)

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      I like “Please advise.” Let’s my manager know I need an answer, doesn’t come across as too aggressive.

    3. Elizabeth Proctor*

      Could try “I’m waiting to proceed until I hear from you.” Signals that your work has to stop until you get the answer.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Or “If I don’t get your response today I will take that as a yes to proceed.”

    4. ..Kat..*

      How about saying in the email that you propose doing x, y, and z. And if you don’t here back by X date, you will assume manager agrees with that plan and will start implementing it.

  105. Master Bean Counter*

    What a weird week. Or two weeks. I got called to set up an interview last Monday, for Thursday. Yeah that should have been a sign. Thursday turned into one of those days where I had meetings back to back all day long. So no time to change clothes. so I wore my most un-obvious slacks to work. I normally wear jeans everyday. This place I interviewed with did not tell me that there was an event that closed down parking in front of their building. Thankfully I was early enough , I had time to walk. Did I mention I actually skipped non-important work meeting for this?

    So I get through the interview and everything just feels off. As in I left knowing there was no way I wanted to work at this place. Ever. Actually started feeling bad about missing the work meeting. Got back to my office, still in slacks and looking nicer than normal, and go straight into a meeting with the three big heads here. I know they know something’s up. Nobody mentions anything. We all work like normal.

    Friday Jane, the head financial person at the sister company, tells me that she’s eyeing retirement in 6-9 months.
    Yesterday my boss and I were talking and I tell him that Jane is making retirement plans. We talk about how complex her job will be to fill. I work closely with Jane now on the other end of what she does. Our jobs are related, closely. I seriously dread a new person coming in and trying to grasp everything. It’s going to be a long haul.
    My boss looks right at me and says, “you’d be good at it.” Well thanks….
    I like my walls and my door, the other place would be cubicles. Choices are coming….

  106. nonymous*

    My boss just announced his retirement. He’s not the greatest supervisor, but at least I know where I stand with him. My role is different from everyone in the group, so I’m concerned that with an acting or new supervisor, I will be considered superfluous.

    What I really struggle with is the fact that my work environment is…not cutting edge. I’m dealing with legacy code, people flat out refuse to adopt newer technology (we’re talking about stuff that came out a decade ago, not trying to keep up with emerging new and shiny). So when I talk about projects from my workplace in interview, it becomes really obvious that we aren’t doing anything that is current “best practice”.

    For example I set up the git protocol for our team (I got one guy who contributes occasionally – I had to make a step-by-step checklist for him to follow and remind him every time), so I’m confident I can use from the command line and make use of branching strategies and admin a project, but I can’t sell it as “used git on production code”. I don’t need to work at a FAANG company, but even the next tier seems to be interviewing as if they were. Any tips on upselling in a STAR interview process?

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Are you looking at places that are established? If so, you could play up how good you are at legacy code, since anywhere established will have their own share of code. They’ll probably appreciate that more, since it shows you’re familiar with the issues.

      My current job’s code is probably old enough to be the parent of a teenager. It’s a nightmare and I’m in your boat of having no experience on anything actually considered current. But if you want to kludge something together on a system that should never be able to have that kludged onto it, I’m the go-to. We had some interns come in and had no idea how to handle anything because they wanted new software and it’s like, nope, you’re here to learn how to knit a scarf with tree branches instead of needles.

      1. LQ*

        This is good. I’m in government and this is what we need. Even better if we have someone who is excellent at kludging legacy AND who is interested in the future. Culture changes at giant monsters or very slow places like ours move slow so you don’t get to throw everything out, you have to connect the legacy to the future one project, one piece, one person at a time. So you need a few strong people who can stand in both worlds and help others cross over.

        I have and will again go to bat for paying a lot for someone like that. If you say you’re just going to rip out the entire thing and replace it all with lambdas and serverless and NOPE. But if you talk about making real cultural and technical change through lots of little work (like the git protocol!)…yeah that’s going to matter here.

        1. spaghetti and meatballs*

          If you say you’re just going to rip out the entire thing and replace it all with lambdas and serverless and NOPE.

          We keep having new higher ups arrive and they all keep saying they’re going to replace it. I have outlasted probably 3 different initiatives that are going to completely replace it.

          I’ve been joking that I will retire before this code is gone. That’s probably what will happen. I am decades from retirement, if I ever get there. This code will outlive us all.

          1. LQ*

            Weirdly the “techie” higher ups have zero interest in replacing anything. I’m (business side not techie side) dragging a few projects that are making improvements (like moving into “the cloud” which is making us do other small updates too). But I have to fight the tech leadership every single step of the way. Their motto is “If it’s working right now we never should do anything different.” I’m pretty sure one has it tattooed on the inside of her eyelids.

  107. Kali*

    I have the chance to attend my first conference in my field! My uni is hosting a conference on molecular biology, and I have the chance to attend in exchange for volunteering! What are conferences like? What do I do to make the most of it? Any advice welcome!

    1. irene adler*

      Take some notes re: the seminars you attend as you may be asked to do a presentation of things you learned upon your return.
      Network all you can. Never know when knowing someone will be helpful down the line.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Wear comfortable shoes. You will seriously underestimate the amount of walking you’ll do at a conference.

    3. Reba*

      Look at the program beforehand, so you know which things you want to attend. You might be able to plan with the volunteer coordinator so you are free for those times. Speak with the panelists after the talks, get their contact (or find it in the book) and follow up with a quick email after. Ask an adviser or professor you’re on good terms with to introduce you to their colleagues at the reception or break times (to be clear, ask them in advance, not a big deal but something like, “hey, I’m looking forward to X conference, would you be willing to introduce me a bit?” Advisers should do this but I think it’s good to name it). Have fun!

    4. AcademiaNut*

      It depends a bit on the size of the conference.

      Big meetings (hundreds or even thousands of people) tend to be more general. There will be parallel sessions and short talks, large poster sessions, a few keynote talks. My experience of big conferences is that they tend to be as much about meeting up with people as the talks themselves, which makes it a bit harder to get involved when you’re junior and less connected.

      Small meetings (< 100 people) tend to be more intimate – there's more mixing with people you haven't met before, and as a local person, you often end up taking people to the good local lunch spots, doing translation duty, and things like that.

      For a big meeting – if you're an undergrad, you'll mostly be watching and listening. Look though the program to highlight sessions that are of particular interest to you, look through the participant list for names of people you recognize or want to meet. Pay attention during the talks both for the material and to learn what a good talk looks like and what a bad ones does, and to the types of questions people ask, and how the speaker answers them (particularly difficult questions). When you see a bunch of talks in a row, it's easier to spot trends. If you're a grad student, it's easier to be able to ask appropriate questions, and to introduce yourself to people in your field, and you have a supervisor who should be willing to introduce you to releavant people.

      If you're an undergrad thinking of grad school, this can be a good chance to talk to people from universities you're interested in applying to, and if you're a grad student, the same for postdocs.

      You need to be a bit thoughtful about approaching senior people, particularly if you're very junior. Approaching someone just because they're well known and very senior can come across as trying to suck up. It's different if you have a good question, or a connection of some sort, or if someone is introducing you. The smaller the conference the easier it is to approach people. But it's perfectly appropriate to introduce to someone you know, but haven't met in person (collaborators with your group, for example).

      If you have a choice in volunteer work, pick stuff that has you interacting with people. Find out if there is somewhere secure for volunteers to stash their stuff (jackets, for example) so you don't have to cart them around with you (particularly if out-of-towners are staying in the conference hotel). Don't drink too much at the social events.

  108. Like a chicken but bigger*

    Am I right to be wary of this job/company? I applied for a job at a food lab a couple weeks back. They asked me to come for an interview earlier this week. When I looked at Glassdoor reviews for the company I saw a pattern in the bad reviews, which had to do with low pay, long hours, and hands off management. Also there were a couple good reviews that sounded fake. They also seem to be hiring for the same positions every 6 months. I decided to go to the interview and they asked a couple different versions of “how do you deal with difficult coworkers?”, but they also said they wanted long lasting employees. I know that this industry in general can be hectic though so I am not sure.

    1. Buu*

      The fact they said they want long lasting employees can be normal.But in my experience any time they’ve come up with that when talking about their vacancy, and not in response to a few of the jobs in my CV where I stayed a long time it’s been a red flag.

      Did you ask them about overtime? If it’s paid, what their policy is?

    2. irene adler*

      The difficult coworker question asked multiple times is a big tipoff.

      If asked that question again, put it back into their laps with: “can you be candid (or specific) please? What do you mean by “difficult” coworkers? Can you provide some examples please?”

      Given the reviews, I would ask questions about their management style. Ask the prospective boss “how do you support your reports?” Ask everyone there about upper management “Tell me what upper management talks about when they interact with the rank and file” “Tell me about the work place environment and company culture”. You get the idea.

      And you can ask “what is an average work day like?” “how much overtime will I be expected to do per week?”
      Ask about the position itself. Is it a new position or a replacement? How many jobs are they hiring to replace and how many jobs are newly created (due to growth)? Turnover rate?

      (Yes, I realize you’ve already had an interview with them. But should the opportunity arise to ask more questions, well, you might consider the above)

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I honest think if your own spidey senses are going off, you should probably be wary of them. I would be too. If you’re looking at reviews and there’s a pattern, then that’s definitely a warning sign. I was at an interview one time and they did the same thing, asked a lot of questions about dealing with difficult co-workers and such. When I got home I did some really deep digging and found a bunch of reviews of the place (it was a salon and massage parlor) that complained of employees full out fighting with each other in front of customers, and reports of the owner sexually harassing men by offering them some R-rated favors. Never replied to that email.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Asking how you deal with difficult coworkers is a flag to me. Then again my response to that question is “I leave” because I don’t do “Dealing with” “difficult” people. They’re telling you right there that they don’t expect people to work together, they work around each other. Nope byeeeeeeeee

  109. Taking The Long Way Round*

    I absolutely HATE my job. I’m desperately trying to get out but I just can’t find anything remotely suitable that also pays appropriately. I had a spate of jobs to apply to just before xmas but it’s petered out.

    I’ve been in this job over 8 years. Staff have had 2 pay raises in all of that time in line with cost of living expenses only. Nobody is eligible for appraisal raises. It isn’t very well paid to begin with which means that our value has decreased in the time I have been there. Most people stay a couple of years max then leave which means people who stay absorb the extra work for a good 6 months while they recruit and train new staff (I appreciate that this is normal practice but in the last 2 years there has been a staff turnover of almost 75%.)

    I was bullied for almost 6 years by my first boss here which skewed my sense of what was normal or not I think. She is a gaslighter and others on my team didn’t believe me.
    I eventually took a sideways move to a different team which is much better, however I don’t get any opportunity to learn new skills and I don’t feel that my learning needs are met.

    I made a complaint against my former boss, and it was not acted upon. She still works there and I see her now and then, which makes me feel sick.

    The article posted above about ways in which employers punish good employees really touched a nerve. I’m really good at my job because I’ve been there so long, I’m very efficient, have been told I’m extremely efficient, and the way that I’m rewarded is to be given other people’s work who are struggling. This only works when it suits them though – I was off for a week with stress last year because it all got too much and my boss told me I needed to organise my time better to be less stressed.

    I have tried to learn new skills in the past such as paying for external training myself (I’ve actually given up just requesting training from them now!) and volunteering, but I’m exhausted and I don’t have extra money or time to continue to do this.

    I’m very depressed about this situation.
    If anyone reads this, can you offer any advice on how I can get out other than the usual – keep looking for other jobs!
    Thank you.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Before I say “keep looking for other jobs” (which you should be doing) I am going to say this: Find something to devote yourself too that has nothing to do with work, looking for work, or being related to work. One of the real struggles when you’re looking for work is to not get totally wrapped up emotionally in the success and failure of the endeavor. So, take an art class, volunteer (not to build your network, just for fun), do something that gets you out of your “work world” and into a place where you can have achievements that are not tied to your professional life. This was the advice of my therapist when I was going through a similar thing and it turned out to be super help and healthy.

    2. Buu*

      You’ve tried to learn new skills but what is it you want to do? Focus on the job ads for positions you would like and start targeting to that. It sounds like you’ve been skilling up for a while and it’s not helped you yet, so you should focus on where you apply and how.We’re nearly in April which is the new financial year so stuff tends to open up with new funding. Go read through the archives here on resumes, and cover letters and make sure yours is updated.

      You could also talk to co-workers who have left ( or look up where they went on Linkedin) and see what kind of companies they moved into for inspiration and advice.

      Make sure you take any holidays owed and don’t let them lapse! Sorry to hear you’re going through this.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Start working less efficiently and saying no in a professional way. The main thing is the spiel ‘If you want me to X, that’s going to mean Y will be pushed back, and Z won’t happen’. No overtime, no evenings and weekends. They want more, they can pay you more.

      Use some of the time for self-care. Use some for learning, and some for hunting. But hold to the thought that they are paying you for 40 hrs / week and that’s it.

    4. Taking The Long Way Round*

      Thank you so much! This is really great advice, it’s very helpful :) I will take it on board.

  110. Newbie*

    I’m finishing my PhD and applying for jobs, but outside of academia because that academic job market does NOT look friendly. I think it’s because I’m so burnt out after this crazy year finishing my PhD, but every single job ad I see, I think, “Wow, that sounds really hard, could I really handle that?” Even entry-level stuff with mostly admin. Imposter syndrome? Burn out? A harbinger of my inability to function in the real world outside academia?

    Logically I know I should take a break from applying for jobs, finish the PhD, get a little rest, and start again – but the uncertainty of not knowing what’s coming next is killing me!

    1. VAP*

      I know the feeling that you describe. I think a lot of it is probably a version of imposter syndrome or similar. One thing that might help is to really spend some time thinking about transferrable skills. Did your research involve managing undergraduate research assistants? Have you done a lot of work tracking down obscure primary sources? Did you spend a lot of time managing big data sets? Are you good with databases? There are probably a lot of really important skills that you built up as a side-effect of doing a PhD, that would be really valuable at other jobs. If your university has a good career center, they should be able to help you with this.

      If you did a PhD, I guarantee you can in fact handle a moderately difficult job! Even if it would require some adjustment.

    2. Reba*

      I’ve been in a similar boat! Temporary employed outside academia and one foot in academic job market.

      I mean, academia is a cult and you probably need to work on deprogramming yourself in some ways, as well as just generally being kind to yourself as you reach the end of a major, probably grueling period of work.

      I’m recommending the following blog posts on the psychological burdens of academic training, but there is LOTS of good writing on there on the internet these days about leaving academia and pursuing “alt-ac” i.e. regular careers.

      https://theprofessorisin.com/2015/04/07/3-ways-in-which-academia-is-your-abuser-langer-postac-post/
      https://theprofessorisin.com/2016/03/29/self-criticism-and-the-academy-postac-post-by-jessica-langer/
      https://theprofessorisin.com/2013/08/05/on-leaving-the-cult-a-letter-from-a-client/

      Finally, you have written, or are in the process of writing, a dissertation! It’s huge! Think about how many different skills and kinds of expertise you have had to call upon to get that thing done.

    3. porcupette*

      My partner recently finished his PhD and went into industry, and he had a very similar experience with impostor syndrome – as did most of his grad school friends who are now in industry! I think it’s a pretty widespread your-brain-on-grad-school mindfork.

      FWIW, everyone I’ve heard talk about this has gone on to be a strong performer in their first non-academia roles.

  111. Lupin Lady*

    I got a really great job and I start in another week. I’ve very excited and I wanted to share.

    I used the ‘how do you measure success’ question in my interview and the person said she’d never heard that question but was impressed with it! Just in case anyone is hunting for good questions.

  112. Not the Bumper Sticker Police*

    Well, I’m back with more Tales from the Pseudo-Woke Employee…
    This week she has been vocal about her frustration with “Spring Break.” Where we’re at, it’s a big deal–all the schools are out, a lot of people take time off, etc. My Charming Employee did not request Spring Break off because she “assumed that we would just close the building.” We are NOT in education. We are in the financial sector. Where she got this idea, IDK.

    Now she is angry because she had made plans and booked a plane ticket. She has demanded that I release her for the week because “it’s not fair that others have it off.” I explained that they have it off because they requested it off and there are plenty of others who DO NOT and are working. She is now asking for me to pay for her plane ticket. Yeah, I don’t think so.

    Just another Note to File…

    3. PB*

      Wow. I’m in higher ed, and I would never assume the building will be closed over spring break! Reduced hours, probably. Closed? Not unless someone says so! Lots of people do take time off, but yeah, they request it in advance.

    4. Arctic*

      Have you ever seen Arrested Development? There is a whole episode based on the premise that most of the Bluths don’t know Spring Break isn’t a national holiday.

      2. Fiona*

        I was JUST going to comment the same thing! Now I’m off to Senor Tadpole’s to have a margarita made in my mouth…

    5. Paige*

      Good lord, even higher ed doesn’t close up during Spring Break on 95% of campuses.

      Some people just enjoy learning things the hard way. Looks like your employee is one of them.

      1. Not the Bumper Sticker Police*

        Unfortunately my company is the “build a firm case” variety. I cannot wait until we get rid of her. She may report to me, but I am not the final say-so in her release.

    8. JR*

      This is especially confusing since Spring Break isn’t even a standard set of dates. Where I am, schools and colleges have it over a month or so between March and April.

  113. Anonisangry*

    Does anyone else have a coworker who uses confusion to prevent themselves from doing things?

    My coworker was asked to do a simple task that had two parts. He lobbed the first part off to someone else who we will call Notoriously Unhelpful and then acted like nothing could be done when Notoriously Unhelpful came back with no solution. Things are busy on this project as it is winding down, so I took care of part one of the simple task in less than 15 minutes. Even though my plate is full, I figured it needed to get done and the longer it stretched on the worse it would be. I sent a message to the other stakeholders that I had solved the biggest part of the issue, and I just needed someone else to wrap up part two.

    Eventually, part two of this task gets kicked back to confused coworker. He proceeds to verify this with me a bunch of times and I agree; he verifies it one more time. I have seen this a million times. The confusion will persist until I step in and take it over. Because I am so busy and about to leave on a work trip, and this is simple and should just be done already, I do it. But I am so mad about it.

    I get that I could have kept deflecting, but I knew the deflecting would take more time and energy than just taking over the tasks and doing it. I made sure to let my bosses know that I had done the whole thing, but it just roasts my onions. Is it really more valuable to make sure you own no part of the task than to take less than 15 minutes to solve a problem? Like it’s not worth helping our your colleague at all and creating some goodwill instead of resentment?

    I’m just sick of this.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Just had something like this happen recently. Close to the beginning of the year, our department sent out an email telling people that if they wanted funding for travel this summer, that they needed to get their application in before the beginning of March. So people had like a month and a half, almost 2 month notice to get their application in. It wasn’t even a difficult application, it was five questions asking for names and stuff. There was a reminder sent out. Well the cut-off date came and went and three days after we had someone try to submit their application claiming they were confused about the process. They had almost 2 months to ask questions.

    2. Buu*

      Are you in a leadership position over this person or same level? If same level you should speak to your bosses, if you’re just doing the tasks they may not care and assume you had the time and were happy to do it. If you can get them to confirm something is Unhelpful’s responsibility they can take heck for not doing it.
      What happens when you go on holiday?

    3. Paige*

      This is the coworker equivalent of claiming you don’t know how to load the dishwasher, and leaving all your dishes in the sink for your SO or roommate to deal with. The only way I know to fix it in both situations is to not touch any of it, otherwise you’re just enabling the bad behavior. Let the metaphoric dishes pile up while you make sure you’re washing yours.

      I have a coworker like this, too, btw. I feign ignorance/confusion right back, which might be exactly what Notoriously Unhelpful is doing in the hopes that Confused Coworker will be forced to do his own work. It’s what you should be doing. If it gets to a point where you can’t do your work, then it’s time to tell your bosses that Confused Coworker won’t/can’t do their job.

    4. Triplestep*

      In my last job, though, I worked alongside someone who had responsibilities I needed her to accomplish so I could carry out mine. I would find creative ways to remind her, but she had “too much on her plate” according to everyone including my own boss, who was not her boss. Well, she would have had far less on that plate had she not gone looking to help people more important than I was. Routinely after about a week, she’d say “You know you can do that if you want. You don’t have to wait for me to do it.”

      1. I’d prefer for you to do your job, thanks though.

      2. You were never going to do your job, and you just made me lose a week. Thanks for that too!

    5. Kathenus*

      As long as you keep doing the work your coworker has no reason to change. Just stop doing it. It’s not unprofessional of you to let them deal with their own consequences. Let coworker succeed or fail on their own, don’t prop them up.

      1. valentine*

        Is it really more valuable to make sure you own no part of the task than to take less than 15 minutes to solve a problem?
        I think you mean this about him, but I read it as being about you. So, yes, it’s more valuable to make sure you’re not doing his job. He doesn’t care and neither do the higher-ups because it’s taken care of. Will they even remember who was meant to do it originally? Not only are you not getting hero/savior/martyr points, this can backfire on you severely, especially if you’re a woman, if anyone ever tries to take the guy to task and he says he totally wanted to do the thing, but you took over and the higher-ups recall all the times you said you did the things he was meant to do. They may paint you as controlling and as distrusting of your colleague/team, since the higher-ups don’t necessarily know you’re right to be distrusting.

        Tell the guy to do the thing and that you know he can do it. If necessary, turn in your piece without his, with a note saying his is pending.

  114. Forkeater*

    How many thank you notes? I have an all day interview next week where I will be meeting a total of 15 people. Do I have to send each one an individual note?

    1. Triplestep*

      I always do. The most I ever did was ten, and two other times I did eight. I spent the most time on the hiring manager, but the other got polite, personal-as-possible notes.

      Here’s my trick: Open as many plain text documents on your computer as you need thank-you notes, and write all of them at the same time. Go back and forth between all of them until they are all to your liking – you have a phrase in one that would be better for another? Move it.

      Then open the same number of e-mails to compose and copy paste each plain text file. (That’s why you start with plain text; many e-mail clients these days will take the formatting of whatever program you’re using to write them.) After you send the emails, save the text documents in a folder on your computer where you have stored the job posting and the resume you provided. Recycle these thank you notes as often as needed.

      Good luck!

    2. Lupin Lady*

      Oh dear. I’m no expert, but best way to go would probably be 1 note to the team, or if meeting with distinct departments 1 for each group (if it’s only 2-3 groups)

    3. Blue Eagle*

      I wouldn’t do that many. The key person is the hiring manager, the hiring manager’s boss (if you talk to them) and maybe a co-worker that you would be working with the most. Yes, a thank you to the hiring manager definitely matters, but when I’ve always thought it odd when an interviewee sends me a thank you and I’m a minor part of the interview. YMMV

  115. Drax*

    I have an office etiquette question: the office manager is leaving. She has aggressive cancer and will going for aggressive treatment. Will be out for 6ish months, her last day is mid next week.

    Do we do something for her? Are flowers appropriate?

    1. RandomU...*

      This one is tough. My advice, is to ask the coworker what she wants. So if you normally have a going away lunch or a happy hour, ask her if she wants to do that, something else, or nothing.

    2. Auntie Social*

      A plant and a gift card to a bookstore is nice. Some radiology depts are in the hospital basement, with lead lined walls etc. She’s going to have a lot of waiting time so a book is good to have in addition to her tablet. Maybe Amazon so she can get a variety of things??

    3. Karen from Finance*

      I don’t think you need to do it, but I think it’s really sweet that you are.

      I’d avoid the flowers. They might be weird (maybe it’s me, but they’d make me think like they think I’m dying), and she might need them removed once she becomes immunocompromised from treatment. No chocolates or other snacks, either, as I don’t think you know what she’ll be allowed/able to eat.

      I like Auntie Social’s suggestion of a gift card for a book store or Amazon. I like any idea that has to do with helping her keep entertained, as 6 months is a lot of time to be in your house as you are recovering from treatment. You need something to do.

      Depending on her personality, another possibility is a gift card for a salon, a beauty store, or even a Sephora. This is because cancer treatment takes away a lot of your self-esteem. She might need to get scarves/wigs eventually, or start relying a bit more heavily on makeup to feel like herself. The nice thing is that even if this isn’t the case for her, these are still nice gifts even if you don’t have cancer, depending on personality. On this note: moisturizers, lip balms. She will probably be needing them.

      Avoid: anything “inspirational”, please. You know, inspirational books, motivational speakers, etc. They can be really annoying and patronizing for the person who is actually going through the thing.

    4. Drax*

      In case anyone was curious – we ended up getting her a gift card to a restaurant her and her husband love going to. They had a nice date night before the treatment started

  116. KYW*

    KNOW YOUR WORTH!

    I worked at my company for five years, and they groomed me for my position. I thought I was getting paid well since I got regular raises and promotions. I loved the work and my coworkers so I became complacent. Then I saw a job posting at a competitor company and applied just for fun to see if I had a decent resume. I interviewed and was offered 30% more than what I currently make for a lateral move. I negotiated and got 5% more.

    If I did it, so can you. Don’t be complacent. Go out and apply even though you don’t think you’ll get the job, even if you aren’t sure you want to leave. I went to my interview calm, confident, and definitely not nervous. Why? Because if I got the job, awesome. If I didn’t, then that’s fine because I like my job. Why not take the chance if you have nothing to lose (except maybe a few hours’ pay)?

  117. AliceBD*

    How do you decide if/when to temp and/or to try to build up your own clients for things when you’re unemployed and job-searching?

    I’m currently unemployed after a lay-off; my last day was February 15. I’m doing the resume stuff with an outplacement firm (it’s not terrible; nothing that would make Allison upset, but I knew most of what they were saying from reading this site) and I’m applying for jobs. I’ve had a couple of phone screens and interviews, but of the ones I have spoken to I don’t know that the offers will be ones I want to accept for a variety of reasons, if I get that far in the process. Of course it is super early and I have only heard (yes and no) from the places I applied to at the beginning of the first week — others may not have looked at resumes yet.

    I have a side gig already that I am getting some extra hours for, but I am wary of expanding it too much and making it too hard to continue when I get a new job as I tend to keep my side gig clients for years. I have signed up for some online tutoring because that is easier to quit, and I may do some more things like that.

    Should I start temping? When? After next week I think I’ll be through applying for the backlog of positions, and there are few enough being posted right now that I think I could do one per night and get through them. But I will have (hopefully!) phone calls and interviews about it. I’ve never temped so I’m not sure if that would be a good thing or a bad thing.

    All thoughts welcome.

    1. Soveryanon*

      I did temping years ago, when I was returning to the work force after my second child was born. The nice thing is that it’s pretty flexible, and they understand that you’re looking for a full time job, so it’s easier to take time off if you need to for interviews and the like. It’s also nice in terms of keeping an income stream. Go for it!

  118. THAT girl*

    Starting the day and leaving on time seems to be reflecting badly on me. ie I don’t often work “overtime,” although I’m a salaried employee, so it shouldn’t matter.

    I am underutilized and probably a tad overqualified for my position. I am also very organized. I am the type of person that spends double the time the first time I do a task to document my procedures, automate the spreadsheet, etc. Thereafter, I am able to complete my tasks quickly. I plan ahead, if I see that it’s a possibility that I may need to stay late, I pick up the pace, skip lunch and table any non urgent tasks. This enables me to rarely stay late. Often, I am able to work at a leisurely pace.

    I have told my boss that I would welcome more work, would like more challenging tasks, etc. I have been thrown a few things, but nothing I can’t handle and easily integrate with my work. I often ask others if I can help with their work (we are encouraged to do this, so it’s not creepy I promise). I have taken on optional tasks like volunteering for employee engagement type activities.

    The reason this is a problem are twofold 1) I’m feeling disengaged so I am looking for positions elsewhere 2) When I have put myself forward for leadership positions my boss has expressed her skepticism on whether I would be willing to put in the extra time that might be needed for those positions. I told her that yes, I would always be honest with her about the amount of time I’m willing to put in and would speak up if needed. In my last interview the question was “do you think this kind of schedule would work with your family?” That really rubbed me the wrong way. I have small children, if I have to stay more than an hour later then I need to arrange alternative daycare pickup. Other than that, I more flexible than many working parents.

    Anyway, I don’t even know what I am asking, but I do think this is holding me back. I just don’t see the reason to sit at my desk past our office hours and work on non urgent tasks for appearances.

    1. yeah same*

      If it makes you feel any better, I’m in a similar position over here… but, I’m not really sure what the answer is, other than maybe try to go somewhere that sees your value and understands your process?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Your boss sounds like she values butts in seats and the late departure that seems common in workplaces that don’t reward results, only face-time. Asking that question out loud (was she the one that asked?) confirms your workplace isn’t going to value what you really contribute unless you stay late.

      I think looking elsewhere is a good idea as it doesn’t sound like a good long term situation for you, if you want to get those leadership positions. You will probably find another company values what you have to offer and doesn’t punish you for keeping a normal work schedule.

  119. JitterBug*

    Hello everyone,
    I’m a longtime lurker on this and am currently using all of the good advice from Alison and the commenters in my current job hunting. My question is regarding when an potential employer asks for work samples. This is fine but the specific samples they are requesting for confidential and cannot be distributed (not that I have access to them anyway since I left the role). This is not a creative role e.g. writing, art etc. I told him that those are confidential and I can’t provide them as samples but I’ll be happy to speak about my work in my interview next week. I can’t help but feel like doing this takes away my edge from other applicants. I know I can’t provide him the documents but did I handle this right?

    1. KayEss*

      Is it normal for employers to ask for work samples in your field? If it is, you’ll probably need to figure out a solution sooner or later, like doing some volunteer or freelance work you’d be able to share.

      If it’s just a weird quirk of this hiring manager, then not being able to provide samples probably does mean other candidates who can provide samples have an edge for this particular position, but you handled it correctly and in the best way you were able to.

      1. JitterBug*

        Thanks! Yeah, I’ve never been asked for samples before. I don’t think it’s normal. I have my second interview with them next week and will see what happens. Wish me luck!

    2. Arjay*

      I think it’s common to de-identify samples. For example, you could show them spreadsheets with formulas and pibot tables or whatever, but with mocked up numbers. You could also offer to complete an exercise to demonstrate whatever they’d be looking for in the samples.

  120. workerbee*

    I’m just feeling totally overwhelmed with work and I’m not sure how to even get organized anymore. I spend some time getting ahead here, then feel behind with that, and so on. Basically we have one huge project due in about a year, that has apparently an infinity of intermediary projects. Some weeks I get 3-5 spreadsheets with over 5,000 lines each and I can’t do them all in a week or even 2! Even if I dropped everything else, but that is really not a feasible solution. I get it that the person in charge is also overwhelmed and anxious but no matter how many times I’ve asked them to space things they haven’t and I don’t have any control over them.

    Any tips on how to get better organized for long term projects with lots of intermediate projects, while keeping up with all the regular work duties?

  121. Not So Iron Stomach*

    Kind of a weird one here. My boss has a personal habit that I find absolutely nauseating. (Think playing with boogers, or picking at a scab.) My boss engages in this habit pretty much continuously in every one on one or team meeting and I find it difficult to maintain eye contact or focus in a discussion while it’s going on. I’ve never been one to get squicked out by nail clippings or chewing sounds anything but when it comes to this, I am honestly worried I might gag…or worse. Do you think there is ANY way to address this? I think calling it out would be really embarrassing for both parties. Then again, so would ralphing all over the conference table during the middle of a check in. Appreciate any thoughts this wonderful community might have!

    1. Aisling*

      I have a coworker who has the habit of loudly sniffing back snot when he’s sick or dealing with allergies. It’s horrendous. I’ve taken to asking, very pointedly, if he needs a tissue. The last time I did that he said no, he was fine, and another coworker piped up “You’re not fine! Take the tissue!” He hasn’t done it since.

      I know it’s your boss so you probably can’t be very pointed with him, but I think asking politely if he wants a tissue would work. Even if he doesn’t take it, it does point out to him that everyone can see the gross thing he’s doing, and that might help curb it.

      1. valentine*

        At your next one-on-one, tell him he picks his scab and, as it happens to be something that makes you queasy, could he be mindful not to do it around you (don’t specify meetings, lest he start visiting your workspace to scratch like it’s the lotto).

  122. Soupspoon McGee*

    When should I start applying for jobs as a physician assistant? Has anyone had experience working with advance practice recruiters?

    I graduate in August and sit for my national boards in September. Licensing for PAs in my state takes 1-2 months, but can’t be initiated without a job offer in hand, so I’m looking to start my first job between October and December.

    For reference, I want to stay in my region. Some recruiters have reached out to me via Linkedin, but they don’t seem to have read my profile and are trying to recruit for jobs starting in the next month or two that are not entry-level. My inclination is to stick with the job boards in my region, but if I find a great recruiter, that would make life easier.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Start looking now and see if you can identify large medical groups in your area as well. Some may not post to job boards. Credentialing can take months and you want to start the hiring process early.

  123. LizzE*

    I am sure this has been asked here before, but is it appropriate to ask about a job’s salary range during the phone screener? My situation is I am currently looking for new opportunities, but since I am not desperate to leave my current place of work yet, I am being picky with opportunities. I really don’t want to go through the whole rigmarole with multiple rounds of interviews unless I get a sense the opportunity is what I want and the pay is in my ballpark. I know lots of job advice says to wait until later in the process, but I just don’t want to get to the 3rd/4th round of interviewing and suddenly learn the pay is less than I want.

    I have a phone screener with a recruiter next Tuesday and I am willing to risk inquiring the range at the end of call, but I want to get the input from the AAM community as well. What do you suggest?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well I certainly do! Especially if you’re employed and looking for a particular salary that meets what you’re currently making. Some might think it’s rude, but honestly it wastes everyone’s time if both parties aren’t even close on this.

      I wouldn’t jump in with that question right off the bat of course, but towards the end of a phone screen, I will politely ask what kind of salary range they have in mind if it hasn’t already come up. I’ve also politely thanked them and bowed-out at this point precisely because we were just too far off. I think they appreciated the honesty and could move on in their search more quickly.

      If the interviewer got offended by the asking, I suppose I probably don’t want to work there as I’d wonder what else they’d be offended by.

    2. Forkeater*

      I do if they don’t bring it up – but I wait till the end when they ask if you have any questions. I phrase it as not wanting to waste their time if we’re not on the same page, and ask if they can share “the hiring range.” This is unless their job listing posts it (if it does, assume offers will be in the bottom half of the range).

    3. KayEss*

      One natural-seeming way to do this is, toward the end of the phone screen as next steps are being discussed, smoothly break in with something like, “Just to be sure we’re on the same page, could you tell me what the salary range for this position is?”

      Just a note, though: bringing up salary runs a very high risk of having the question turned around on you rather than getting a straight answer, so be sure to have an answer for “well, what are your salary expectations?” ready to go.

    4. irene adler*

      I’m finding that recruiters are broaching the salary topic during the initial phone screen. So you may be in luck.

      They used to ask my current salary. California’s new law ended that.
      So now they ask what salary range I’m looking for.
      When they do this, I say, “I’m happy to discuss salary ranges with you. I’m sure you have a hiring salary range for this position. What is this range please? “

  124. NerdyWordyBirdy*

    Wanted to get others’ opinions on this and what is and isn’t appropriate in a work context. I’m in the Southeast US at a financial institution. We have three employees (including me) who speak Spanish at varying levels. We do serve some Spanish-speaking customers, but aren’t a bilingual company.

    The other day it was slow in the lobby, so the other two Spanish-speakers were practicing with each other. I work in the back, and I overheard another front-line employee come into another coworker’s office to complain about the employees speaking Spanish. I overheard statements like “we speak English here,” etc. These two employees both have a history of intolerant attitudes with Muslim and non-English-speaking customers, but nothing that affected their service to them, just comments after the fact.

    My dilemma is that I can understand a foreign language being distracting, esp. in an open lobby where you can’t put in headphones. But I also feel like the employee that complained did so because she has a bias against Spanish-speakers, and we do have many Spanish-speakers in this region. I also don’t know if she said anything to the two who were practicing. What are your all’s thoughts on this? Is speaking a foreign language at work during slow times inappropriate? What should have been done here?

    1. Lupin Lady*

      Your spanish-speaking coworkers were doing a great thing and the coworker who complained is completely in the wrong. I don’t know what to do but practicing a customer service skill during downtime is never inappropriate.

    2. KayEss*

      Personally, I’d be tempted to make a report to HR. Even if you aren’t “officially” a bilingual company, that attitude runs the risk of alienating a part of your customer base and those comments are inappropriate for a work environment.

      1. gmg22*

        Yes. And given that we’re told these two colleagues have a” history of intolerant attitudes with Muslim and non-English-speaking customers,” this is another piece of evidence for possible HR-related concern. OP also notes those attitudes were “nothing that affected their service to them, just comments after the fact,” but it’s not necessarily going to stay that way.

    3. Buu*

      Even if they aren’t being racist to customer’s faces that you’ve seen, they are being racist about them behind their back. They are also now making comments about your coworkers.

      The language of lobby chatting shouldn’t make a difference. As a mono lingual person it’d be more annoying in the language I do speak as it’d be harder for me to tune it out. They also speak Spanish as part of their job even if it’s not expected from everyone.

      They are racist, you don’t have to justify their behavior. I guess it depends now if you think management will have your back on this and if you feel OK reporting it.

    4. Alice*

      If the firm serves Spanish-speaker customers, and some of the staff were practicing and improving their Spanish, isn’t that really good for the firm?
      I mean, if the complainer had been complaining about loud, distracting talking, ok, sure. Or if it hadn’t been slow in the lobby, also a problem. But practicing a language WHICH THEY USE FOR WORK seems like a worthwhile thing from the company’s perspective.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I think your instinct is correct.
      It may have been different if the front-line complainer was having an issue with the noise or distraction of conducting the practice in the public lobby or something along those lines. But then the complaint would’ve been more like: “They shouldn’t be practicing like that where a customer might hear them,” not “we speak English here.”

    6. LilySparrow*

      Your co-workers are bigots. They are also stupid. The Spanish-speaking employees are polishing their customer service skills. That helps them do a better job.

      If the bigots only had a problem with the noise, they would have complained about the noise, not the language.

      And yes, their intolerant attitudes do affect the customers. You probably can’t see it, but I guarantee that every single Muslim and non-English-speaking person they interact with does.

    7. PlatypusOo*

      Say something to HR. Monday morning. First thing. Also document this event and all similar events in the past. Every time you hear these racist coworkers saying these things in the future go to HR and document. To me this seems like a no brainer.

  125. MadAlien*

    Does anybody have any advice for what to do when mental illness (specifically depression & anxiety) interferes with motivation at work? In general, I really enjoy my job, but I’ve been in such a depression fog lately that I’m having a really hard time focusing and staying on task. Thus far it hasn’t been a big enough problem that anybody’s noticed or said anything, and I don’t feel my work has been compromised, but I’m afraid if I don’t do something about it, it could escalate. I had this problem at my last job and my boss DID say something about my lack of focus, but, to be honest, I didn’t care enough because 1) I hated that job/it was a toxic environment, and 2) I knew it was only temporary while I finished grad school. But I like my current job and want to stick around for a quite some time, so I don’t want it to get as bad.

    1. Hope*

      Well, obviously, first make sure you’re taking care of yourself in getting your mental illness treated in whatever way is appropriate for you.

      But aside from that, if it’s manifesting at work as having a hard time focusing and staying on task, I would start with making really simple lists of what you need to do each day. Maybe set a timer to go off every 30 minutes or hour as a cue to check if you’re on-task. Whenever you catch yourself veering off-task, go back to the list and work on something from it. And don’t berate yourself when you catch yourself off-task; remind yourself that now you’re getting back on task, which is a good thing! At the end of the day, see what’s left and make a new list for the next day. I’ve found that part is especially helpful in dealing with anxiety, because if I know I have a list for the next day done, I don’t have to obsess over what I need to do at work tomorrow once I’m home; I know that the list will tell me. And I also save the lists in a file folder so I could refer back to them if needed come evaluation-time.

      Even if you only get a couple of things done from the list every day, that’s better than not getting anything done. Small wins are still wins.

    2. Koala dreams*

      For anxiety, I think taking short walks can work well, if your job allows it. A walk around the block can make wonder for concentration. There are medications, but the side effects can be rough. (They make me sleepy.)

  126. (Former) HR Expat*

    I started a new job this week! It only took about 6weeks from start to end once I started hardcore applying for jobs. And it was a HUGE promotion for me. I can’t thank this site enough for all the info and guidance that helped me through the hiring process as a candidate!

  127. Waterloo*

    Seeking advice from both the manager and employee perspective!

    What are your thoughts on being a manger or having a manager that worked remotely for 4-6 weeks per year (excluding other vacation travel)? I know there are plenty of companies where everyone is fully remote and their arrangement works 100% and many people in my current company have managers who are offsite at a different location, although they are not remote it’s the same concept.

    A bit of background on my team, each individual person has their own work and manages it. As the manager, I work on special projects with my boss to advance the department and manage my team of 4 analysts. The analysts come to me with questions but face to face meetings are not as common.

    Would love to know your thoughts!

    1. JocelynX*

      As an employee with a full-time remote manager, the number one thing I wish my manager would do is make sure to be reachable and responsive. I know that things gets busy, but don’t let “out of sight, out of mind” become a reality. I don’t know what that would look like for you (‘office hours’ or a scheduled weekly/biweekly meeting with your analysts?) but in my case I don’t like having to hound my manager to do one-on-ones or bother even replying to my questions about work….

      1. Waterloo*

        Thank you for responding! I totally agree, it’s easy for things to get out of sight out of mind and I will definitely keep that in mind. I am a firm believer in being open and receptive to questions and not shut anyone down for being too busy.

    2. Ali G*

      I’ve managed 100% remote employees a lot (I have 2 now – one on a different time zone). Regular check ins are key. Also have a system for communication. I am pretty hands off, so I am going to assume you are working, because I trust you, so if something isn’t working, I need my employees to come to me.

      1. Waterloo*

        I am definitely very hands off! Communication is key… thank you for your insight! Hoping one day this will work out :) The company I work for (well, specifically who leads our department) is a bit old school when it comes to remote work but I’m betting on a change in the next couple of years

  128. Rosie The Rager*

    Generational differences in interview styles

    In the past fortnight, I’ve had two interviews with women in their 60s. These interviews deviated from the standard line of questioning I receive from human resource and hiring managers who are in their mid-20s through late 50s in that they didn’t focus on my skill sets or real world experiences that aligned with the job duties.

    Instead, the exchanges involved a full breakdown of every position I’ve held for the 10 years covered in my resume. I am a career changer, so the shift in employers becomes obvious but doesn’t make a great deal of sense without a “one-minute me” summary or a skill set discussion. Neither woman offered me the opportunity to put into context why my career direction changed or the transferable skills I’ve used in all my positions.

    I’ve withdrawn from consideration from one position because of the borderline hostile way I was treated and the passive-aggressive way the former occupant of the position was discussed. My interviewer tersely informed me her former colleague failed to provide even a customary two-weeks’ notice before leaving the organization. The nerve!
    She also called their CRM system “bastardized” and referred to the organization’s ethos as being “unwelcoming” and “outdated.” I’m grateful that she shared with me all of the blood red flags during the initial interview rather than forcing me to either receive a rejection letter or sit through a second-round interview.

    I fully expect the second interviewer to send me a rejection email when she returns from a business trip later this month. Honestly, this is the best outcome given how poorly the interview went, especially considering that I know she didn’t look at my resume beforehand and would not allow me to ask questions (always a blaring warning sign). Still, a part of me would like to email her and politely suggest that she provide more time for candidates to ask questions so that they may learn more about the vacancy. However, I am conscious that this could be read as rude and possibly defensive. I am unlikely to act on my desire to gently correct her style and instead look forward to my rejection email.

    My primary takeaway from both exchanges is that older interviewers and younger interviewers have very different styles, not that I favor generalizations. The veteran hiring managers see careers as a steady stream of positions lasting five to 10 years, not contract, part-time or fellowship positions lasting through an election season or the holidays. Interviewers from younger generations don’t really ask about timelines but make frequent inquiries about working in diverse environments, hitting deadlines, and embracing new technology. Bear in mind, I am reflecting solely on my interview experiences.

    Has anyone else observed these varying interview styles? Does any AMA commentator have advice on adequately preparing for an interview with a person whose interview style may weaken my candidacy and leave me unable to ask questions? Is it appropriate to interject a statement about my career change when discussing previous positions? Should I remove all evidence from my previous career?

    Thanks for reading!

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      I think you just hit two people in a row who have a different style than you’ve previously experienced. As for your previous career, I assume you’re listing the jobs because they’re relevant, right? My job from 10 years ago is generally off my resume except for when it’s relevant to the position I’m applying for.

    2. NewNameJustForThisBecause*

      As a woman of over 60, I don’t think you can generalize like that.
      You had two difficult interviews and unfortunate situations.

  129. Vanessa*

    I know sending a thank-you note after an interview is good form, but if the interview process has many tiers at which point do you send a thank-you note? I figure sending one after the screening phone call isn’t necessary, but I think sending one after every interview thereafter could be overkill, and not sending one could hinder you making it to the next interview.

    Thoughts?

    1. Hidden Trout*

      I’ve been sending thank-you/follow up notes at all stages (and to all parties) of a multi-staged interview process–including the phone screen interview. At one point, I had a lunch meeting with 8 employees (they got a group email.) I do not sell myself aggressively or at all, really; my notes are more along the lines of friendly follow up that I might write to a co-worker who helped me briefly on a project. My goal is to find potential coworkers and supervisors who are interested in our industry and excited about thinking and talking about our field. I say to myself: “If I already had the job and were writing to them in the first two weeks of working there, what would I say to follow-up on our last conversation that might help build on a collegial working relationship?” For me, the key has been to act like an engaged professional in our shared field who likes talking about how we do the work we do, and not like a supplicant desperate for a job (which I totally am, but I lock that part down when I’m interviewing.)

  130. Butter Pecan*

    I’m dealing with a challenging employee. Not even sure my question, just desperate for any advice. She’s extremely negative (even saying something went well with have a “BUT”); lost of complaints about customers/peers/tools anything she touches she describes with an eye roll. Extremely sensitive and emotional, simple conversations often lead to tears. Constant miscommunication because her perception does not match intention or others’ reality. For example, she will say a customer “was the most frustrated she has ever heard anyone and we will likely lose their business.” Concerned, I’ll spring into damage control only to find out others present did not experience the same frustration or I’ll listen to the recording of her phone call and, although the words as verbatim to what she described, the tone and the “emergency” is non-existent.

    Simple exchanges like “Hi employee, I was just checking to make sure XYZ was completed.” She’ll immediately get super defensive and later described the exchange like “you sounded angry” then “you yelled at me when you said that.” Leaves me walking on egg shells.

    Finally, I don’t trust her. Our IT resources have disproved her working late claims, emails never sent, time spend on a call with customer, etc.

    Ugh as I write this, I see my own answer that she has to go. So why hasn’t that happened yet-her customer service is really good, there is value in her work. Our customers like her. She’s learned our software quickly. BTW She’s mid-30s, mid-level role.

    I think I already know the answer but I’m going to hit send anyway. Thanks

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh God, I’m glad you got it off your chest and can see the writing on the wall in the end. THATS A GOOD THING because she’s doing damage that you cannot undo in some aspects.

      I had one of these people in my office awhile ago, thankfully she left after awhile to uh…greener pastures to spread her negative poops in. I describe her best as a stormy little rain cloud floating around. Thankfully she was decent enough that we didn’t need to remove her completely and wasn’t to the level of “We’ll lose this client! They mad AF at us!!!” It was mostly “This person is so weird and annoying and hard to deal with.” Then I’d have to talk to them, brace myself for impact and they’re actually kind of awesome [seriously…I’m not kidding, they’re just normal but maybe quirky? IDK]

      She is the picture perfect version of “a bad fit”. You cannot keep someone around who puts you on eggshells, you will find someone else who customers love and learn the software. I promise.

      1. valentine*

        Add up the time you spend agonizing over her, planning unnecessary damage control, and investigating her claims. If she wanted to leave, you’d probably accept it as a gift and would feel instant relief, not regret for the loss of the bit she does well. Not catastrophizing, being open to improvement, and not adding negative caveats are also part of the job and they surely weigh more, because you can’t train someone out of all of those (they possibly need therapy), but you can coach someone to an excellent level of customer service.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Either a drama-llama or overly-emotional.
      Drama-llamas like the attention. They always will exaggerate.
      If it’s overly emotional, I’d wonder if she’s traumatized from a previous job or abusive manager? It’s true that people experience PTSD if they’ve been bullied on the job, and it may manifest as feeling like always being yelled at and being defensive. This could possibly be helped with calmness & coaching.

      However, that does not explain the misleading claims of working late, work or email not done, time allocation, etc. This is by far the more serious issue at hand, and lying about any of these are big red flags on their own outside of the drama.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The lies on their own are reason to fire her (and quickly; that gets harder the longer you wait).

      The rest of it should just make you feel better about the decision.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      You should take note that her tendency to turn neutral or critical feedback and make it about *you* seems to be working. You shouldn’t be walking on eggshells with an employee, the employee should be on a PIP and out the door. She doesn’t sound like she enjoys the work, she makes everything out to be worse than it is, and she ignores feedback because she’s too busy tone-policing you.

      I can’t tell if she’s committing time card fraud with the late work claims or just lying about working long hours to look better, but either way there are enough things she’s lying about to make it a deal breaker. Her good work doesn’t make up for the other stuff. Bad workers are never 100% bad; what you have here is enough bad to outweigh any good.

  131. CopperBoom*

    I just had an interview for a fantastic job. The job is as close to a dream role as I could imagine, however…there are some big issues for me. One, the compensation is low, especially for the amount of work involved. Two, I’d need a car. I live in the city and haven’t owned a car in nearly a decade. This job is in the suburbs and would require driving to different sites on average twice a week. It seems like a big risk to purchase or lease a car for a job, especially one that’s not paying much to begin with. What are your thoughts on this?

    1. Data Analyst*

      To me, a dream role with unusually low pay would no longer be a dream role. Not because of greed, but because if they’re out of step with the norms for what that type of work is worth, it may turn out that they are unreasonable or behind the times in other aspects as well.

    2. Forkeater*

      My thoughts are it might not be your dream job – wouldn’t a dream job involve good compensation? (Enough to cover the expense of car ownership.)

    3. irene adler*

      Inquire about a company car or generous travel expense account? Especially since the pay is low.

  132. Laura*

    I posted a few weeks ago about my pending redundancy in September and not knowing whether to apply for jobs yet or not.

    Since then I’ve spoken with some recruiters and had a couple of interviews. One wasn’t great, they were looking for the technical experience to introduce and embed a software that I’ve only dealt with a little as an end user.

    But the interview yesterday went pretty well. It’s with an enormous international company, they have a huge training and development budget and deal with really big, exciting projects. It’d be daunting, really fast paced and challenging, but feels like a logical step from my current role and the chance to progress and build more skills so even if I didn’t want to stay really long term, after a year or so I’d be in a great position to move on to lots of opportunities that would be opened up by having worked there and learnt their processes and tools.

    They are in the process of making a decision, and said it should be today or Monday. They came back and asked about my redundancy package, and told the recruiter that they’re looking into the possibility of matching it as an incentive to join them before September.

    I’m a bit of a wreck with nerves and excitement, don’t want to get my hopes up too much.

    But if this goes to plan I’ll get a lump sum of nearly half my current salary, plus a salary increase of around 40%. I’m not normally really driven by money but it’d have a big impact on my life, especially on top of all the positives I can see for working there. I live alone and although my family would help in an emergency, I’m a bit scared of being made redundant, not finding a new job straight away, and struggling to pay my mortgage and other bills.

    But if I got this job and it goes as I hope, I’d have stable employment , loads of opportunities to learn and progress, money in the bank and more coming in every month. No financial worries, no period of unemployment, no interviewing in direct competition with all my current colleagues.

    I’ve got everything crossed!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds great! Fingers XX for you. I love hearing when a positive comes from a layoff situation.

  133. Ghostwriter*

    This is such a silly question, but hoping there’s a writer or two out there who can help me to figure out what the professional norm here is. I recently got an email from an editor at a literary magazine saying that my submission is being moved to the next round of reading (yay) — is it customary to reply with a quick “great, thanks for letting me know?” Or is this seen as inbox cluttering and annoying? I’m almost definitely overthinking this…

    1. ****

      I think either is fine.

      I’d probably lean towards not responding unless I also had additional comments or questions, but I don’t think a ‘thanks’ email would cause any concerns or annoyance.

    2. EmilyG*

      Congrats! I used to work as an editorial asst., not quite in your area, but still I dealt with authors a lot. In my personal opinion, it would be fine to either not respond OR to write back a quick acknowledgement to the effect of “Thanks, how lovely to hear. Have a great weekend.” What will drive the person nuts is if you write back something that requires additional thought/attention/reaction or attempts to short-circuit their process, like “Oh wait, here are my two other submissions!” or “I have to hear by next Thursday because that’s when my llama is molting and also there will be a full moon” or “Can you provide me with a critique of my dialogue in particular?” etc.

  134. Disgruntled Engineer*

    Well, I had a rant about my job all planned out, but something changed that threw a wrench into it… I’m an engineer with a master’s degree and 6 years of experience in my field (including over 3 years at my current company). The company brought in a new CEO to “clean house”, and ever since I’ve been seeing the culture shift in a negative direction. They’ve implemented policies in the name of “efficiency” and “accountability” that just strike me as micromanaging (such as having to report our time in 3 different places to 3 different departments), and worse, another department that we have to work with to get our jobs done isn’t held to the same standards, which is immensely frustrating since we’re the ones explaining to the customer why deliverables were late or not done right.

    For several months now I’ve been contemplating leaving, but then something will happen that makes me think it might get better. For instance, one of my complaints was that my annual performance review came and went with no mention of the bonuses or raises. I figured there wouldn’t be any and they were just hoping we forgot about it, but we got them this week, and it was more than I expected (bonuses are now tied to the company’s performance in addition to the employees’, since last year shareholders balked at how much the company paid in bonuses despite being unprofitable at the time). The rare occasion they actually explain the reasoning behind the micromanaging policies, they actually seem… almost reasonable. (The new time tracking is supposedly to determine how much time we’re collectively wasting doing other departments’ work instead of our own, since this has been an issue in the past.)

    I’m just hesitant to leave because the place was widely regarded as one of the best places to work in the area when I started only 3 years ago. No one else seems to be objecting to the changes, our long-term intern just accepted a permanent position, and reviews on Glassdoor are generally positive, so I’m wondering if it’s really no worse than anywhere else and I’m just overreacting to minor annoyances?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      The things you mention sound pretty normal for corporate life in general and engineering, specifically. (Not sure if you work at an engineering firm or are an engineer for another type of company.)

      Are you waiting for someone to explain things? Why not ask your manager for some explanation? Management usually appreciates people who are engaged in their work and the business.

      They should have some information available on the annual review process, too, unless it’s a tiny company. (You said shareholders, so I am assuming it’s larger.) Our annual reviews are separate from our raises. Here, the raise determination process starts back in August, and you get your raise letter in March, effective in April. Annual reviews have moved around to different time frames, and now we do JIT feedback, so whatever. Management and HR always seem to be reinventing the wheel on that, but after 19 years, I just go with the flow. As long as I get some feedback and raise, it’s fine. (There were a couple years that I worked for someone who never gave me a review or raise letter. I only knew when I saw it on my check. Like you, I thought about quitting then, but I transferred internally once I had had enough. It wasn’t about that specifically, but a million other little things over several years made me feel like I did offer much value to him personally and that I would be better off to take my talents to a manager who appreciated what I could do.)

      1. Disgruntled Engineer*

        Thanks for the detailed reply! Yes, I work in a decent sized ($1B annual revenue, which actually isn’t huge for my industry), publicly traded company.

        I don’t recall the exact timing of the raises last year but I seem to recall it was discussed during annual performance reviews, which is why I was surprised it didn’t come up then (last month). They’re retroactive to the beginning of the year though, so we haven’t lost out on any pay. That’s weird to me that you didn’t get any notification of your raise in advance – I don’t know how we compare to other industries, but we’re highly regulated and thus very procedure-oriented.

        Regarding asking for clarification, I guess I’m just someone who tries not to make waves, and I’m not great at reading my boss, but I figured they’d tell us what they want us to know. One of the new time tracking systems was introduced in the form of a meeting notice that referred to it by its acronym (which was never actually defined), with a form attached for us to fill out in advance – no “here’s what we’re doing to fix issue / achieve goal …”, just “do this, and we’ll discuss it tomorrow”. I may be completely off base here, but it just comes across to me as “here’s your orders from upper management; you’re on a need to know basis”. It just doesn’t seem as though a reasonable company would have us fill out a spreadsheet tracking our time to the second (it’s a macro-enabled Excel document that logs the time you push start/stop/pause/resume for each task) and also attend daily meetings to go over the progress of each task you’re working on (including sitting through everyone else’s). The stated reason (to get more efficient and reduce wasted time) seem reasonable, but I know without a doubt I’m wasting more time complying with these new policies than I was before.

  135. Seeking Second Childhood*

    My company is stripping & refinishing the work area I moved out of in December.
    The building REEKS of the dust of ages…it’s so bad that I could smell it through my nasty cold, and one day could actually see dust in the air.
    How can they not have plastic up around this zone?! I’m almost at the point of asking our health & safety officer.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Ask. I’m sure they dont know that plastic’s not up. Or email whoever is in charge of the stripping with the same question, and bcc H&S officer. Yikes.

    2. Reba*

      That could be dangerous! Please alert your H&S person and I hope they take it seriously.

    4. ..Kat..*

      And they should be ventilating – stripping and refinishing generally involve toxic chemicals that you should not be breathing.

  136. DC*

    I will end up buried because I’m late this week, but my rollercoaster continues.

    1. Boss pulls me early in the week to tell us they things BigBoss wants them out, and that they’re hunting. Start spiraling because I don’t want to be hunting at all but it’s feeling like I need to.
    2. Boss has convo with Grandboss, Grandboss makes clear she wants to keep Boss here, that they aren’t in danger. Okay, feeling less like OMG HUNT and more like… maybe keep eyes open for a really good opportunity.
    3. There’s starting to be hints that folks aren’t super duper happy with the CEO. Hell, I’m not. So that could get REALLY interesting really fast.

    Meanwhile, my raise request got pushed off another MONTH, and I’m still feeling very unvalued. My productivity is 100% affected.

    I don’t even KNOW what advice to ask for I just feel like I really need advice from someone’s who’s seen a lot more in the business world than I have. Gah.

    1. valentine*

      Start looking. If you’re determined to stay, proceed as though you’re not getting the raise.

  137. Chris*

    Recently I applied some stuff that I learned from reading Ask a Manager in my job. It really wasn’t the product of any particular piece of advice Allison gave that I can point to, but more the underlying theme that the best way to resolve an issue is usually to have an actual conversation about it (even if it’s an uncomfortable subject to talk about).

    In my case, there had been a couple of instances recently where I clearly hadn’t been on the same page as my boss and I was concerned that he might be dissatisfied with the way I was handling certain things. It’s a situation where I’m more of a subject matter expert, while my boss is a generalist, and where I’ve been around longer and interact more with certain stakeholders. I often find myself speaking up for the process and what I regard as good practice, as well as representing the stakeholders’ point of view in our internal discussions. Recently, I’ve picked up on some frustration on his part in response to this.

    A few years ago I probably would have just let this fester and worried about it without actually doing anything. Thanks to reading AAM I went ahead and brought this up in one of our weekly 1-on-1 meetings. I asked if he was satisfied with what I was doing or if there was anything he’d like me to handle differently. He boss reassured me that any frustration was with the stakeholders (and our regulators), not with me. In fact, he appreciated the approach I was taking and wanted me to keep doing it.

    So, a good outcome thanks to reading AAM!

  138. Hoping for a new start*

    I have a question about reference requesting etiquette. I’ve been working for an organization for 10 years. For the first 9, I had the same boss. He made a lateral transfer to a different division, and now I have a new boss. Due to my new boss, I am looking to leave. I have an interview scheduled for Thursday, and I want to ask my old boss for a reference. What is the best way to do that? Since I applied to the job I’d been planning to do it if I ran into him by himself, but that hasn’t happened and is unlikely to happen. Should I just send him an email from my work email? An email from my personal email? An email requesting a phone call? Just call him on the phone? We work in different buildings now and I don’t really have a reason to go to his building, but I could drop by his office – but quite likely he’ll be busy or not there. I have asked two other people and it seemed more straightforward, but for some reason I am stumped by this. He’s going to be very disappointed that I’m thinking of leaving the organization, though he knows that I’m not happy with my current situation. I am a bit worried about him telling my current boss, but I don’t think he really would – that’s part of my hesitancy to send an email. I’ve looked at the AAM archives but can’t find this exact question answered (probably because it doesn’t really matter). I’d appreciate anyone’s opinion on it. Thanks!

    1. RandomU...*

      Call him. You worked with him for 9 years, but not anymore. You don’t have to treat this different from your other references except for the fact that you’ve had a closer than average coworker relationship for a long time.

  139. Tris Prior*

    It’s been A Week at my job, and this morning I saw a job posting from a local org that I love and support and patronize.

    It’s minimum wage, part time, and no benefits, so there’s no way I can make it work. But MAN, I wish I were in the position to take a job like that. Stupid bills. Stupid rent. Stupid need for health insurance. {kicks dirt sulkily}

  140. Me--Blargh!*

    I can’t get any response from anyone, no matter what I do. Whether I send a cover letter or just a resume, the result is the same — nothing. Not here, not in BiggerCity, not in other states. Perhaps I’m unemployable. Or cursed. Or it’s been too long now (two years and four months). I can’t even get a crap kitchen job with a dumbed-down resume. I hate everybody right now. I’m going to stop updating because there’s nothing to say.

    I also hate Amazon’s publishing with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns, and I hate that I’m even considering it.

    Tomorrow afternoon, I’m going to see Captain Marvel. At least that will give me two hours of escape. The MCU is literally the only thing I don’t hate right now.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My sympathies on the slog…and I’m with you on Captain Marvel. My daughter actually got my crowd-hating husband to agree to an opening weekend show…by getting tickets for 9:30am! (Bonus? Earlybird discount.)

    2. L. S. Cooper*

      I feel this pretty hard. It’s especially annoying because after MONTHS of applying to places I was plenty qualified for and not even getting a rejection notice, I wound up setting myself on LinkedIn to open to recruitment, and now the floodgate of people trying to get me to do customer service in an office somewhere has been opened. (Managed to snag one of the few jobs that isn’t really customer-facing– thank GOD!)

      1. Chi chan*

        Could you tell me how to set yourself open to recruitment on LinkedIn? I have been applying for ages too with no luck.

    3. Tmarie*

      It took me two years and three months to find my current great job. I blew thru my 401k and lost a ton of self esteem. I’ve been in this new job three years, and although my 401k will not recover, I have regained my self esteem (90% of the time) and enjoy life.

      There is hope. Good luck!

  141. HereKittyKitty*

    This is more of a statement than a question, but damn, I’ve had a rough month or two at work where it felt like the team wasn’t being looped in or taken seriously because we just happen to be the only team featuring all women. I’ve been frustrated at my male bosses who have consulted men to confirm the exact things I’ve reported are true and being told that we should make do with limited resources. It’s been frustrating to be sure.
    But I gave a killerrrrr presentation on Tuesday that knocked them all on their asses and as a result, I was told to go through with my plan without any input from them- I’ve got free reign. And I’m really proud of myself. Say a huzzah for me this IWD.

    2. Auntie Social*

      You killed–congrats! And when your project is complete, ask for a meeting, or grab your boss walking down the hall. Tell boss you want not to be second-guessed because you’re women. Tell them you know, too, that you’re the only team told to “make do”. You can’t accomplish anything when you’re sharing the pencil!!

  142. Lily Evans*

    I have an interview on Tuesday (the 12th)that I’m super excited about. There’s just one thing I’d like some thoughts on beforehand, and that’s the fact that I’ll be going on vacation abroad for just over a week from the 24th. I’m unsure whether I should mention toward the end of the interview that I’ll be away. The other option is to say nothing at the interview and wait if I hear anything, and if I don’t I’ll reach out on the Friday before my trip to let them know I’ll be away with limited email access.

    Normally, I’d wait and not say anything during the interview and wait until I got either an offer or an invitation for another interview. But it doesn’t seem like filling the role immediately is an issue, it’s been a pretty slow process so far. I applied in early January, got a phone interview in mid-February, and the interview I have on Tuesday was scheduled three weeks in advance. I can always also tailor my answer to how they respond about how long they think the next steps of the process will take. Like if they say they’re aiming to get back in touch the week I’m away I think it would make sense to bring up my trip then, right? I’m probably super over thinking this, but I’d appreciate any thoughts you guys have.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Good luck on your interview! I would ask at the end what their next steps are and see if they give you a timeline. Then you can mention that you’re going to be out of the country soon in case they need to reach you. I think it’s better to let them know at the end of the interview rather than right before you go to avoid anyone scrambling.

  143. MississippiMud*

    Would you ever hire someone that your team doesn’t trust?

    I’m in the position of needing a specific skill on my team.

    One of the more qualified applicants has worked with my team in the past. I recently heard that members of my team have reservations based on this person’s work ethic and past performance. Is that an immediate deal breaker?

      1. Overeducated*

        I mean yes it’s a deal breaker. I wouldn’t hire them. How much more specific a reference can you get about how they’d perform on your team?

    2. Sophie before she was cool*

      Have you spoken directly to the people who have the reservations, or have you heard about their concerns through the grapevine?

    3. CTT*

      I can’t tell if you’ve heard directly from your team members that they think this or heard it secondhand; if it’s the latter, ask them. If they confirm what you heard, then it really is a dealbreaker. Not just because this person wouldn’t perform well on your team, but because if you did move forward and hire that applicant, it’s saying to your team members that you don’t trust or care about their judgment.

        1. spaghetti and meatballs*

          I agree with that. You’d be sending a message to your team member and it would absolutely influence how they’d deal with you in the future.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I was in the position of giving the “don’t hire” advice to some decision makers based on my past experience with the candidate. They hired him anyway. It’s been a mixed bag. People with my skill set know he’s full of BS but others don’t and he’s done remarkably well (which I admit I resent, because his ideas are arguably garbage but sound convincing). I would definitely NOT want to work with him and I would go to some lengths to avoid that, like changing departments at the first opportunity.

      If you were hiring for a general position that had little overlap with your team, then maybe. But since you’re looking to hire a candidate to work directly with your team and your team already knows this person’s qualities and finds them lacking, listen to your team. Otherwise you will risk alienating them. This person may have the right technical skills but obviously not the other aspects that would make them a good addition to the team.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Sounds like one person has reservations. Talk with them for details. Talk with other people who worked on the team with this applicant. Talk with the person who managed this applicant.

      If you can verify this, I would call this a deal breaker. I would rather have someone less qualified with a better work ethic and performance.

  144. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    How do you negotiate a benefit in a sinking ship?
    In my case, I’d like to have one day of home office. When I brought to the table, my boss blurted sentences like “if we give it to you, then everyone would ask”, even though there are people who have that already (for example, my team leader). The catch is this company is having serious difficulties, like low wages, bad infrastructure, poor planning, and being paid really late. For example, this year the CEO preferred buying an espresso machine instead of replacing the home router our twenty company computers use to work, and we haven’t been paid as I type this.

    1. The Imperfect Hellebore*

      I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, but how attached are you to this company? Based purely on your comment, I’d be job-searching elsewhere, rather than angling for benefits. That being said, if the company is really that rubbish, you might consider just going ahead and working from home one day a week. If your work is still good, they might not even notice!

    3. The Imperfect Hellebore*

      Oh and I missed this in my previous comment – but being paid late? That’s a huge red flag. The most basic part of a job is doing work for money. If your company is consistently paying people late, I’d get out of there stat if you possibly can.

    4. spaghetti and meatballs*

      You need the ship to be afloat for them to give you benefits. Your last sentence makes me wonder how much longer you’ll be afloat; you could negotiate it and get it, and then your job could vanish the next week (note: not getting paid? I consider that “not having a job, because that job doesn’t exist anymore”.)

      There’s no harm in negotiating it, I guess, and pushing hard on it. But at some point, you have to desert a sinking ship. A CEO who can’t prioritize properly is not someone who is going to keep your ship afloat for very long.

    5. RandomU...*

      This is partly a glib answer and partly not… The way to negotiate in your case is to bluntly say… “Who else are you going to get in here to do my job and not get paid?”

      Seriously, try saying this out loud, because if sounds ridiculous it is. Through no fault of your own (I’m assuming) you are working for a company that doesn’t have money to pay you. Your bigger worry is finding a job that pays you.

    6. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      Thanks, everyone. I know there’s no much hope left, but I wanted to give it a try. Sadly, I’ve been job searching for a year now, with no results.

      1. valentine*

        Report them for the late pay.

        Can you temp? Is any job that pays not better than this one? I wouldn’t trust someone who made that espresso decision to ever or to fully pay me.

  145. The Hopefully Hired At Some Point*

    I’ve been out of work (outside the home) for about ten years now, and I’m going slightly bonkers. I got married about fourteen years ago, and worked as I’d always done (temp work in offices) for the first years. During this time, my husband and I were concentrating very hard on saving enough for a deposit on a house in a decent town, and eventually did so.

    After we moved, it made more sense for me to deal with all the household ‘stuff’ for a couple of months, as my husband had a good, permanent job in London. The months and years went by, though, and I now find myself doing everything in the household other than earning the money. It didn’t bother me to start with, but now it does.

    So my question is: How do I go about becoming a wage earner again, with no CV to speak of? My initial thought was to try and get volunteer work in an area I’m interested in to build up my CV again, but even that seems daunting, because how do I apply with a CV that’s blank for ten years? And I wouldn’t even know where to begin with a reference after all this time.

    Does anyone have any advice? I’m in the UK btw.

    1. Buu*

      Most volunteer places will get this a lot, I suspect many low key community ones will just want to chat with you first and won’t want a CV. You might also want to get on meetup.com and look for groups in your industry, so you can network, and get advice!

      The other thing that’s popping up a bit is returnships. Internships aimed at people returning to work. Perhaps have a Google? If you want to work in an office again, are there any skills you need to brush up on? Perhaps look at courses at your local library/college.

      Good luck!

      1. The Hopefully Hired At Some Point*

        Thank you, this is great advice. It actually hadn’t occurred to me to do some refresher courses on office skills/programs, but it makes a lot of sense to do so! Thanks Buu :)

    2. Traveler Kate*

      I think volunteering is a good way to go! Find an organisation whose work you’re interested in and ask if you can help out. Maybe you can do some office work for them? Meanwhile, registering with an agency who offers temp office work can help, too! Maybe apply for fixed-term jobs, like those to fill in for maternity leaves or seasonal work (visitor assistant for example, if you like to work with people). If the company likes you and wants you to stay later, yay! If they only want a temporary solution, then it’s OK, at least you’ve got some fresh experience to put on your CV! And don’t forget to mention transferable skills. You might’ve been out of the office for a decade, but I bet you’ve built some (new) skills during that time :)
      Ooooor you can actually start your own business! Have you ever thought about that? :)

      1. The Hopefully Hired At Some Point*

        Thank you :) I think part of my problem is that I’m so convinced that no-one will want me with an empty-decade CV, that I haven’t even tried. You’re right about temp agencies, too. The worst they can do is say no, after all.

        1. Traveler Kate*

          Well, even people who has no work experience can start somewhere. I think the key here is to refresh your skills and demostrate it on your CV and/or cover letter. Or really, just start your own business! You have the liberty to do that, if your husband is supporting you, you have the time to start small and it can grow into a well-run business ;)
          Whichever you decide to do, good luck!!!

          1. Traveler Kate*

            Just to clarify, I’m not saying you don’t have work experience. I’m saying fresh graduates with no work exp. can find a job, and you already have work experience, so you have the advantage!

    3. nonymous*

      I’m in the US, so hope this advice translates to the systems you have access to. When I volunteer there are usually leadership positions and participant positions. So an example of a leadership type volunteer activity would be arranging coverage at the temporary homeless shelter. Volunteer participation would be signing up to be the host for a specific shelter night. If you are using volunteering as resume-building, I would focus on leadership activities and/or roles where you learn a specific skill (e.g. using Quickbooks). It’s unlikely that the nonprofit that you’re volunteering at will hire you, but can serve as a reference (we have one woman at our church who has taught herself Quickbooks and was able to take some tasks as directed by our paid bookkeeper – the bookkeeper would be a good reference). Now to get on as a volunteer doesn’t necessarily take an existing CV, but sometimes it can take knowledge of the program. It’s super-common (here, at least) for people to look for job-training by volunteering, so I wouldn’t worry about being too blunt “Looking to get back into the workforce, want to get some experience doing XXX, can commit for 3mos”.

      And if you’re just looking for something/anything entry-level retail and hospitality (catering, hotel front desk) will look favorably on your SAH experiences. Just present the organization/management side of things – did you do taxes and handle the budget and contractors and stuff like that? You may be also be a good candidate for working in landscaping/garden shops.

      1. The Hopefully Hired At Some Point*

        I think you’re right about my SAH experiences, and it’s an interesting point. I do handle all household issues, contractors, and paperwork, which involves a lot more confidence and skill than I had ten years ago. Thank you!

    4. Weegie*

      Definitely take a course of some kind – this always allows you to hit the reset button when you’ve been out of the workplace for a while.

      And while you’re studying, you can apply for all kinds of jobs that students usually do: lots of them don’t require much if any experience.

  147. Anonimouse*

    I’m starting a new job next month and I’m really excited! Everyone I met when I went to interview was great and it seems like a cool opportunity. However, I’m a bit concerned about the dress code. When I went for my interview, it was on a Monday and everyone was way more casually dressed than I would feel comfortable being in an office. Almost everyone had jeans on, albeit with nice blouses or shirts and sport coats. My work wardrobe tends to be classic pieces and silhouettes mixed with more statement pieces, like a fun necklace or brightly patterned blouse- I rarely, if ever, wear jeans to the office, even on a Friday. For example, one day this week I wore a pencil skirt and blouse with a bright pink sweater over the blouse. The next day I wore black pants and a top with a fun pattern. I’m wondering if my wardrobe is too formal for this office and if I should consider adding in some more casual pieces, or wearing jeans sometimes? Another issue here is that I’m young (and look much younger than I actually am) and I will be supervising a team of people who are older than me, so I’m worried that dressing too casually will inadvertently take away some of my authority. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Rey*

      I think most new hires need a little time to adjust to new dress code. Your current clothes sound fine for your first week while you observe other women at your level and above to get a sense of what they typically wear to work. And if you’re matching other women at the organization, hopefully this will help with your concerns about appearing young.

    2. CheeryO*

      My office is a lot like your new one, and there are a few people who wear more traditional business casual and no one bats an eye. If everyone else was in t-shirts and yoga pants, then yeah, you’d probably want to go less formal, but dressing one step up is totally fine.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      Congrats on the new job!

      I think it’s usual for people to dress a little more formally when they start a new job. I doubt people will notice too much while you take the fashion temperature of the office.

      Alternatively if it’s always very casual, are there ways you can dress down what you currently own?

    4. RandomU...*

      Your dress shouldn’t be an indicator of your authority. So I don’t think that you have to worry about that.

      Start small though if you get hired. Go out and buy some more casual style pants (less tailored) to wear with your existing blouses and sweaters. Add trouser style jeans to your wardrobe if you don’t feel comfortable in regular jeans. If you wear black pants wear a more casual top with it. Replace jackets with cardigans

      As long as you are not wildly out of sync with the rest of the office, you may find you can continue to wear what you are comfortable with, but if you do, you need to own it.

  148. Conflicted Feminist*

    I have two issues with a new coworker: 1) she likes to go on feminist rants to me and 2) she criticizes me nonstop (the office isn’t clean enough, I don’t dress very well, I mispronounce words, etc). I agree with her feminist rants to a point but I’d rather talk to politicians about my concerns (and definitely have) and rely on my social network when the news triggers something I’d forgotten about; not my coworkers. My workload is also very light so I’m not sure how to shut down this down (unless “Hey! I need this stuff to stop” is enough).

    1. Buu*

      Not very feminist to criticize the way someone dresses :( Just shut her down and walk away. If you’re at your desk can you mysteriously need the loo or to go talk to a coworker elsewhere, any time she does this?

    2. Ingray*

      I think you can say “Sorry, I don’t like to talk about politics at work, can we change the subject?” That’s totally valid, a lot of people don’t like to talk about potentially controversial topics at work. Even if you agree with her, that kind of talk can make people uncomfortable and really isn’t appropriate for a workplace (unless you say, work at a nonprofit that specifically deals with social justice issues or something.) As far as her criticizing you, that’s really not okay. You could try something like, “Did you really just (criticize how I dress, correct my pronunciation, etc) and see how that goes. Just remember SHE is the one being rude her, you shouldn’t feel bad about shutting her down.

      1. Conflicted Feminist*

        I appreciate this! I’ve always struggled with setting boundaries and dealing with conflict professionally and have been going along with her nonsense but it sounds like it’s totally okay to say “Uh, nope!” Her company (whom we’ve donated office space t0) deals with social justice but mine is more corporate so it’s an added layer of weird for me.

    3. Hope*

      You could try the “Look, I don’t disagree with you, but I really need work to be an escape from politics so that I don’t get burned out” route.

    4. LCL*

      She dares to criticize how you dress? If you want to be nonconfrontational, say excuse me, have to check my phone and take your phone out whenever she does this. Or turn around and walk away.

      For a little more confrontational, ask her how criticising you helps the feminist cause. For much more confrontational, say did you just criticize how I dress? What gives you the right?

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Your new coworker sounds like a jerk. The social justice, feminist stuff is a red herring – even jerks can support a good cause but that doesn’t mean they’re not jerks sometimes. It just sounds like she’s finding things to be unhappy and critical about – if you can remove yourself from the situation, do so. Wear headphones if that’s possible, answer in a distracted monosyllabic way, or take a walk. Doesn’t have to be for long, just enough to break the conversational hold. And you don’t have to be busy to be really interested in something other than her commentary (hello internet).

      I also like the advice about asking her “Did you just criticize what I’m wearing?” or giving a flat look if she corrects or points out some mispronunciation. I would probably sigh out loud if I had to listen to that sort of thing. That’s not cool of her, it’s actually very rude, and you can totally indicate that through words or behavior. Anything you can think of to discourage her thinking of you as her verbal dumping ground, do that.

      1. Conflicted Feminist*

        Y’all are awesome! After sleeping on it, I think I’m going to react to her by rolling my eyes or laughing and then go back to my phone or reading my book. If I’m feeling annoyed enough then I might respond with something like “Uh, this obsession with my body is creepy and needs to stop.”

        1. valentine*

          Don’t roll your eyes. Whatever you do needs to look proper to others. You don’t need anyone saying you’re the big meanie or just as bad. I’d tell her I’m not the appropriate audience for any of it and, the next time she starts, try, “Oh, my goodness. I’ll leave you to it”, frown at my screen, and focus on work/ignore her. I might whisper-read to myself to really sell it a time or two, but develop the reputation that I can’t be engaged for BS, and like to plug away.

  149. Auntie Social*

    Or a plant and maybe a gift certificate to a bookstore? Sounds like she’s going to have some down time and I know not everyplace in a hospital (radiology, e.g.) has online access because of lead walls. So sometimes a book or magazine is handy. Or an Amazon GC, she can buy anything.

  150. Seeking Second Childhood*

    A question for our Excel gurus : I’m looking for the function name so I can look up how to use it.
    I have two tables of unequal row count. I want to flag the places that the value in TableA -Column2 has an exact match in TableB-Column2.

    VLookup isn’t doing it…

    1. Free Meerkats*

      Sort of kludgy, but assuming the values are numerical. Create a column of formulas that subtract TableA -Column2 from TableB-Column2 then filter for zero.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        That only works if the rows match up though, unless I misunderstand you.

    2. Never*

      Not sure this is exactly what you want, but to compare two values I usually just use something like if(A1=B1,1,0) and look for the zeroes.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Can you highlight duplicate cells? That sometimes works for me. No formula, just conditional formatting.

    4. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Can you do an index/match to see if it returns a value, then a COUNTIFS or just an IF to return yes/no?

    5. Ali G*

      Have you tried conditional formatting? I can’t remember specifically, but you should be able to create the Rule to highlight a cell based on your equation.

    6. Lisa B*

      You can also do a vlookup to that column. If it exists over there it’ll return a value, and if it doesn’t exist you’ll get #N/A.

      1. Lisa B*

        Sorry, just noticed that VLookup isn’t working for you. Are you getting a different error on the vlookup? This is exactly the type of situation that I use Vlookup all the time, so wondering if something is going wonky in the formula.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Lisa is right and I feel sheepish. Vlookup has a requirement that values be in numerical order — and I had sorted the wrong table.
      This cut my manual-audit list by at least 50%. Thank you all!

      1. Lisa B*

        No need to feel sheepish!! I once spent much longer than I care to remember freaking out about my countifs that weren’t SUMMING correctly. Um, duh.

        But! Vlookup does not actually require numerical order on your values Are you using “true” as your final parameter? I use “false” to find an exact match for both text and numbers…. and numbers do not need to be in numerical order.

      2. LGC*

        For future reference, VLOOKUP doesn’t have that requirement – if you set it to False, it’ll look for the exact match. True looks for an approximate match. So, the formula is going to be =VLOOKUP(search value, search range, column index, [TRUE/FALSE]). The part in brackets isn’t required, but if you don’t include it it defaults to TRUE.

        (To get even crazier, if you have multiple matches, I think True returns the first result and False returns the last.)

  151. Traveler Kate*

    Hello, do you have any tips for a video interview? I have my first one scheduled next week and other than looking presentable, shut my door, and check myself in the camera before I connect to the video call… I have no idea what shall I look out for? What would’ve been nice to know before your first video interview???
    Thanks in advance :)

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Maybe try a test call with someone you know first, just so you can check the connection? Especially if it’s something like Skype that most people have anyway.

    2. Traveler Kate*

      It’s zoom. I haven’t used it, yet. I want to play around with it a little before the interview.
      Thank you for the tip!

      1. jonquil*

        Most systems (Zoom included, I think) have a fake/test call you can log into to check your system, if you don’t have someone around who can do a practice call with you.
        Expect there to be connection difficulties, dropped words you must ask to be repeated, your interviewers looking in an odd direction (because their monitor is to the side on the conference room wall and the camera is in front of them, for example), trouble fitting everyone on the interview panel in the screen, etc. May not happen, especially if the company frequently does video, but it’s good to be prepared so as not to get thrown off.
        Remember that while your instinct will be to look at the screen where they are, where you should look while speaking is your webcam. Look deep into its robot eye and develop a connection with it. :)
        Be aware of what’s behind you– blank wall is great for no distractions. Be sure the lighting shows your face, isn’t backlighting you or throwing weird shadows etc. And figure out what position you need to be in to have a confident posture– is it standing? Sitting at a desk?
        Good luck!

      2. Anax*

        If I recall correctly, there’s a software package you’ll need installed before the call with Zoom.

        Also, make sure you’ve closed out of anything “unprofessional”, and that likewise, nothing odd is on your desktop, just in case they ask you to share screens.

    3. VAP*

      I’ve done a number of video interviews, and there have been techincal issues (I think usually on their end) in a surprisingly high number of them. My main advice would be to keep your cool if something goes wrong (you can actually make a really good impression if you’re not phased by technology issues), and make sure that someone on the other end has your phone number so that they can call if the video software won’t connect.

      Try to look at the camera as much as you can, just your screen. In terms of stiltedness/awkwardness, I find that a video interview is mid-way between phone and in-person; being able to see body language makes it easier to know how much to talk, when someone is done, etc, but it’s still not as fluid as an in-person conversation.

      Have a pair of headphones ready, in case there’s a small lag or something and you end up with an echo from the speakers.

    4. Auntie Social*

      I try to look in a mirror behind the camera so I look sufficiently engaged and pleasant. Heck, perky. Sometimes my intently listening turns to RBF.

    5. Lisa B*

      Try to get your camera as close to the part of the screen you’ll be looking at as possible. If you look at the people’s faces on the screen, it will look like you’re looking away from the camera. Looking at the camera won’t let you see their faces, but will seem like you’re making good eye contact. I positioned the camera on top of my monitor, then moved to have size and right at the top of the screen.

      And yes, practice with a friend! Zoom has got great stability and quality- that’s what we use here at Current Job With Many Locations. Have never had issues. Good luck!

    6. Nothemomma*

      Consider the background, simple, uncluttered, and clean. Be aware of how the light hits both you and the camera. If a window is in the background, close the blinds. The pets and kids should be taken for a , long, long walk. Silence your cell, doorbell, etc. blow your nose if you are a sniffler. take a sip of water. Sit up straight. Have the camera in front of you and up a bit so you are looking straight ahead or slightly up…not down.

    7. Bex*

      Set your laptop up on a shoebox or stack of books so that the camera is at eye level. It’s SO much more flattering that the up-the-nose perspective. Use a headset to help minimize background noise. If you are doing from home and don’t live alone, make sure that people know you’re doing the interview so that they don’t do things like yell about clogged toilets.

    8. SciDiver*

      If your connection isn’t great and you can’t hear exactly what they said, don’t be afraid to ask them to repeat it! I had a few Skype interviews for my current job, and there was a lot of “I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that, would you mind repeating the question?” and “My audio cut out there for a moment, but if I understood you were asking about my experience with X?” Clarifying over video is better than faking your way through a question you didn’t hear. And if your email (Outlook) makes a sound when you get an email, close or mute it before. Best of luck!

    9. Traveler Kate*

      I want to thank everyone who commented on my question. Your tips helped me and now I’m proud to say I’ve already did my first ever video interview :) I think it went well, and there weren’t any technical issues. I’m waiting to hear back from the company now.
      Thanks for the tips and experience-sharing, it helped me a lot!

  152. UnmotivatedAccountant*

    How do you get motivated to go to work each day? I am tired of doing the same thing week after week. Even changing jobs always gets back to same old routine. I am in the accounting field, and can’t break out of it.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I get it. Work is a grind, that’s why it’s called work. Everyone feels this way. It’s perfectly fine to consider work just a routine job that pays the bills and not a passion! But if you truly HATE your work, I’d really think about whether or not you’re in the right field? Because you shouldn’t HATE HATE HATE your work so completely it makes you miserable either, you know?
      That being said, if it’s boredom, you have to learn to have a passion outside of work. Hobbies, travel, volunteering, art, etc. Basically whatever floats your boat and gets you excited about life away from your actual bill paying work.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Why can’t you break out of it exactly? Is it because you need the pay grade and don’t want to work your way up? Or do you mean you’ve tried and it hasn’t worked out? I just want to get a feeling for your situation…

      I’m an accountant who has also worked in business management. I’d get bored stiff if I were doing just accounting all day, even though it’s my passion and I love it, I’d hate not having anything to do with it. Business in general is the same kind of hyper organization and in depth knowledge pool that you draw on in accounting, so it clicks together nicely for me at least.

      I am the accounting department and I also run offices or production if necessary. Most days are similar but not the same because I have my hands in all the pots…but yeah I mean I don’t make as much as if I were in a big accounting firm being a dedicated CPA or something of that sort. It’s the trade off that I’m regularly happy to have. What about being a controller, is that in the cards? Something that’s more than just crunching numbers day in and out? There is a lot of ways to spin out for an accounting professional. Maybe you need something with more ‘reach’ to it? I’m unsure if you work for a small or large organization but if it’s large and kind of makes you focus on just a set of tasks at any given time without any room to expand, I can see how that would be not motivating and tiresome!

      1. UnmotivatedAccountant*

        More details. I try to apply for reach positions but it never works out. Sometimes do get interviews, but they always speak of the skills I am missing.
        Even recruiters keep me with lateral type positions.
        I try to keep positive going to networking events.
        I do see what you are describing. I remember having some jobs early on that were a mix of things. When I look back in job history, I did start moving to larger companies. This is food for thought. Thank you.

  153. stump*

    When your client keeps handing you stuff that’s blatantly outside of your work parameters (and when you check the client system’s notes, sometimes it’s just because it’s vaguely difficult they didn’t feel like working it) that were set By The Client. *pain* Occasionally, they hand us stuff that’s not even vaguely related to the Actual Task we’re supposed to be doing! Thanks! Granted, we can boot things out of our work queue if they’re not within our work parameters (which we greatly enjoy doing), BUT STILL. STAAAAAHP.

  154. Annie Edison*

    Is it ever a bad idea to apply for a leadership position on your own team?

    My team lead, and close friend, Amy just announced that she is leaving and I’m considering applying for her job. In my department, nobody reports directly to the team leads, we all share the same boss, but they are responsible for assigning and auditing our work.

    I’ve been wanting a new challenge in my work, but have been heartbroken at leaving the office I love, so this seems like a good fit.

    But I have it on very good authority that Amy is leaving because our new boss (who she works with very closely) is impossible to deal with. I know that others are looking to get away from her as well. I started off on the wrong foot with her already, and while things are better now, I don’t consider our relationship fantastic.

    Not to mention, there are very strong social dynamics in my office and I’m very close friends with many of them. As in, these are people I go out with and party with on the weekends and such, and one is a very dear friend of over 10 years (I recommended him to the job). It’s normal for the team leads to go out with us, but I think it would feel very weird to have superiority over them. Amy has always maintained a good distinction between friend and team lead (she is one of my closest friends!), but I wonder if I could do that as well as she has. There’s a reason why Allison always says not to be friends with reports, after all.

    If I walked into another office with these problems, it wouldn’t be an issue since it would be a clean break, but this is an office where I am very well established and know all the goods and bads.

    Am I overthinking things? Or is this actually a bad idea?

    1. Annie Edison*

      Update: they’ve decided that the competition is open only to existing members of my team and the worst person ever has already declared the job to be his. Screw it, I’m putting my name in the hat and seeing what happens.

  155. k.*

    How do you present a desire to move internally to your supervisor?

    I’ve been in my current role for about two years at a large research university. Departments will post jobs on our main job board site and internal candidates are welcome to apply. I’m very interested in applying for a position in a neighboring department but I feel like I should let my boss know of this interest before submitting an application. To be honest, I’m not 100% certain if I would be asked to interview so I’m also a little concerned about a high risk (telling my boss I’m looking elsewhere)/low reward (not even getting an interview) situation.

    I have my annual review next month and I was thinking about broaching the subject during this time. (Some additional context, my boss is often away for meetings and I rarely get a meeting alone with her.)

    Is this a good time/place to broach this situation? And if so, how do I frame it without risking my job?

  156. Anono-me*

    There is a work question at the end, I promise.

    I am going through a rather challenging time personally and have been looking for a support group to join. Unfortunately there don’t seem to be any. (The closest I have found is a social service organization tried to set a facilitator lead support group up but was unable to secure the grant funding.)

    I really really want the support group and I think there’s a huge need for one, because in the last few years the number of people and my situation has increased dramatically.

    So I’ve been researching the logistics of starting a peer-to-peer support group. A local church will offer the space, I can self-fund instant coffee, tea, and a couple boxes of Oreos for the first few meetings. (And ask other people to bring in things to share as time went on. ) I’m thinking of having the meetings be an hour and a half long, with the first half-hour being a guest speaker or social time, the second 30 minutes awhole group meeting with everyone, and the last half hour being breakout groups, based on subsets of the issue.

    So here is the work-related question. For those of you who have been involved in support groups, is this a lot more work than I’m thinking or is this something I can reasonably set up and maintain with only a few hours a week time commitment?

    (I’m open to all types of advice on this, but if we start getting to non-work, I may repost with a request to save none work advice for Saturday. )

    Thanks you.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      That’s a great question, and a great idea. I’ve only been involved in support groups as a member, but ones I’ve been to seem to fall into two categories — some are pure support, where members just discuss their situations among themselves, and in others there’s a leader who provides resources. I’m imagining the second kind takes more work for the leader! But the first kind was also really valuable, especially when members of the group had experiences and resources to share. (So, like, I think a support group for people who all got laid off yesterday might require more work on someone’s part to be valuable, but if it includes people who were laid off over the last six months, there should be resources within the group.)

      1. valentine*

        I think you want a second party to do the logistics and facilitating. Even if you had two or three other people to switch off with, that’ll get murky. You don’t want your group therapy leader to need the therapy themselves, from the session they’re leading. Would the members be able to report poor behavior to you and to whom would they report you, especially with everyone wanting to cut everyone slack due to your shared experience?

    2. nonymous*

      I don’t have any experience with support groups. What I do have is experience with our neighborhood community awareness group – we meet once a month at a nearby church for approximately 2 hrs. Half the meetings are guest speakers (Master Gardener, City rep, stuff like that) and half are “business”. Snacks and coffee are donated. I think you can do it with a few hours a week if you are extremely organized. What I could see as being a time suck is if participants demand a lot of personal attention. You may need to be more accessible in order to get the group going. Another area that can be time-heavy is how much media (e.g. website, newsletter, handouts etc) you want to invest in. Some of that is going to depend on how much on-boarding your participants need. I have some neighbors who need to have brief pre-meetings to feel heard – it really affects how well-behaved they are in the group setting; others respond really well to me being up front with what I need to keep the meeting moving along.

      If you have a friend that feels strongly about the project it might be worth enlisting them to run the breakout sessions. Then you can also model appropriate interaction and redirect people as a team.

  157. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

    I recently was promoted to manager of my group. What are some tips to deal with imposter syndrome? I have a pretty bad case even though I know I’m qualified and have been doing (according to my group and others outside my group) a good job.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations!! What I would do is print out your job role or goals or leadership competencies– whatever your company has in place, and rank myself. How do you feel about your abilities/skills/competencies to fulfill these requirements? Rate yourself 1-5, and then the areas you feel you are lacking look for development opportunities. Does your company have a contract with Skillsoft, Udemy, LinkedIn.. if so… take some of the free classes offered. If they don’t offer that kind of education, YouTube or TED talk it. You want to be better at difficult conversations- get the Critical Conversations book, or Google it and watch the videos discussing it.
      I am in Leadership development, and my number one advice for people is go find what you need– it is out there, and in many cases it is FREE. Invest in your own development.

      1. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

        Cool, thanks! I’ve been trying to find resources about managing but they are hard to find ones that are free. I’ll have a look around those sites

        1. LaDeeDa*

          If your company doesn’t offer anything, search TED. You will find some amazing talks and resources.

  158. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Does anyone have experience working for companies that do adventure travel/international tours, like GeoEx or National Geographic Expeditions?
    I interviewed for an admin position at a company like this a couple years ago and ended up being the #2 candidate, but didn’t get it, which I think was possibly due to the fact that I had no real office experience at the time and was coming from a few years of international travel/short-term customer service gigs. I ended up working at an entry-level job in a law office, where I still am, but am still intrigued by the travel industry and would like to move in that direction in my career. Would love to hear your thoughts or experiences!

  159. NotALlamaWrangler*

    How long did your last job search take?

    I know it varies a lot based on industry, experience, region, etc. But I’m curious as to what other people’s experiences are.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Higher ed, a year. I was stuck geographically and by the way most hiring happens over the summer. So I started one summer and ended it the next.

    2. Anax*

      IT, four months. I applied a LOT, but in my area, the decision-making process for IT jobs often takes four or five interviews, and that process takes a while. Many companies also often delay hiring in Q4 – even for open job postings – until Q1, for budgetary reasons.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      Four months, with the last two months becoming increasingly intense as my desperation increased and I widened my search to include similar roles in education or government. I was grateful it didn’t take longer.

      My husband is in IT and jumps around every few years. High demand field so he’s never spent more than two months on a job search. (Which makes me jealous because it’s so different in my field.) More often than not, he has a network referral that gets him in the side door of the hiring process, allowing him to skip a lot of the preliminary steps.

    5. Ali G*

      I was not working for a year (well I had a low level part time job but I don’t count that), but I was only really looking for ~6 months. I’m in science/conservation and have worked for both for-profit and non-profit. In this case I had been in for-profit and looking to get back to non-profit.

    6. GigglyPuff*

      Still doing it, 2 1/2 years. I’m in a weird place career wise, not entry level, but not enough experience to talk myself into a higher manager role, and in a more specialized library field. Usually about 6-8 job postings a year, been a finalized 5 times.
      Right now going crazy, cause 4 postings came up in one month, applied to all, made it to second stage for all. Trying to negotiate that with limited time off, having to pick up extra comp time, which I feel like will make me look bad. ugh.
      Stupidly enough, job I have now. First job I applied to in my last search, and only one interview round. So that only took two months.

    7. ThatGirl*

      About four months. I was pretty lucky. I got laid off beginning of March, took a couple weeks to decompress, and had two offers by mid-July.

  160. Mimmy*

    Any ADA / Accessibility professionals in the house?

    I know I’ve discussed this before, but last week, I took an ADA certification exam and I passed!! Now I’m figuring out next steps.

    Quick background for those unfamiliar: Many people who pursue this certification are ADA Coordinators (which are required in state and local government agencies as well as certain universities), but there are others who are in similar roles but with different titles. Other professionals pursue the certification to show they have the training (e.g. attorneys, architects)

    I’ve been itching for a role that uses knowledge of the ADA and accessibility, but don’t want to get in over my head. If nothing else, I feel this certification is a good resume builder because it shows I have more than a basic knowledge of the ADA as well as how to ensure accessibility in a variety of situations, from the built environment (ramps, accessible bathrooms) to making sure people with sensory disabilities have access to information and services.

    So excited but so nervous!!

  161. Not the Star Employee*

    Thinking about funny/terrible interviews. Once met with a Program Director and her employee who I would be joining in the same role. They spent the entire interview talking about how the team member was the “star” and whoever was to be hired, would complete the tasks that “star” found too boring to do. This was for a management role! Couldn’t get out of their fast enough. Anyone else have similar experiences?

    1. Bruiser Woods*

      I sort of work in that situation but it wasn’t mentioned in the interview. I’m job searching.

  162. Anax*

    Minor question – How is cursive looked on in the workplace these days? I habitually write in cursive, but I know some folks have trouble reading it, and I’m not sure whether it’s taught to ESL students.

    I don’t do a lot of hand-writing for other people – I’m in IT – but occasionally a birthday card or a quick post-it needs it, and I don’t want to be rudely illegible.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      My teenaged nieces and nephews weren’t taught cursive… I am not sure when it was phased out in school.

      1. B-anon*

        My kid is 7 and in their school they are taught cursive immediately from starting school at 4/5. YMMV.

    2. spaghetti and meatballs*

      How neat/legible is your cursive in general? There’s script fonts on computers, so even people who don’t know cursive are probably familiar with it, but that depends on legibility. When I write for other people on whiteboards, I print in all caps, because my handwriting is so bad, so all caps is the best way. But birthday cards, that seems informal enough to just write the way you normally write, I assume it doesn’t matter if the recip can’t read your “best wishes!” message.

      2. Anax*

        Halfway decent. I’ll use a photo for sanity’s sake.

        The moderation filter normally catches links, but since I’ve noticed that these open threads move SUPER fast, I hope circumventing it lightly is ok.

        imgur. com /a/ fGuiQMo

    3. The Doctor is In*

      ESL may have a problem but so might native speakers! I am “Older”; a friend my age was telling me her college junior son (21) could not read a note my friend wrote him in cursive! And recently I was viewing a new exhibit at our local museum. They had 100-year-old letters and documents in cursive that were hard to read (in wall cabinets, etc). I suggested they have their Boy Scouts who regularly do projects for them to type up the documents and post that next to them. They informed me that the Boy Scouts cannot read or write cursive.
      Cursive has not been taught in many American schools for that long.

      1. Anax*

        Well, huh. I’m 27, and we were definitely required to use cursive until eighth grade, so around age 14. Maybe there’s some difference in region.

    4. Natalie*

      If the bulk of your handwriting to others is post its and birthday cards, tbh I think you’re overthinking it. Plenty of people who print have ludicrously illegible handwriting, and they still write post its.

      1. Anax*

        That’s fair – that’s why it’s a minor question. I’m more curious than worried.

    5. Koala dreams*

      If it’s greeting cards I wouldn’t worry, people will find it out from context. For post-its, I guess you can ask a few coworkers if it’s legible.

      There are different stiles of cursive, so even if people learn it in school it wouldn’t necessary be the same cursive that you write.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Your handwriting in the photo is beautifully legible. I don’t know anyone of any age who is incapable of *reading* cursive, even if they didn’t learn to use it themselves.

      FWIW, the schools in my area are bringing it back now, after some new research came out affirming that it aids in learning and recall on complex material. My kids got drilled on it thoroughly in 3rd & 4th grade and are expected to continue using it.

      1. Anax*

        Thank you! I’ve actually worked pretty hard on it; I like doing creative writing by hand, because I find it helps me keep my thoughts in order.

        Sounds like something to be aware of, and I should check before… say, leaving a list of important handwritten notes right before going on a phone-free three-week vacation, but not a huge problem, then – especially in a position like mine, where handwriting is rare.

        Thanks, folks!

  163. LaDeeDa*

    On Wednesday I was in back to back strategy meetings, and not checking/answering emails. On Thursday I took PTO and didn’t check/answer emails… now it is Friday I am averaging 3.25 emails answered per minute for SIX HOURS! Can this day end!!??
    Happy Friday!

  164. blabla*

    Here’s one: there is a guy at my office who is overly obsequious and will literally leap out of the way or flatten himself against a wall if we are passing one another in the hall. There is plenty of room and no reason to think we would accidentally brush shoulders or something if we just walked normally past one another. I think he does it trying to be respectful(?) but it’s very weird and it bothers me. He’s fairly young and junior in the organization. I don’t know for sure but I suspect he’s somewhere on the Asperger’s spectrum. Do I say something? It probably happens 3-ish times per week.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      If you’re friendly with him, you could make a light joke like “I’m not going to bite you!” But if you barely no him, maybe just ignore it. It’s weird behavior, but not harming anyone.

    2. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Is he new (hired in the last six months/year)? If so, I’d chalk it up to nerves. If he came from an abusive previous job or an abusive environment at school, he might be very wary of potentially upsetting people who are more senior and who he might consider to have power over him (whether you actually have that power or not). It can take a while to feel safe in an environment after not feeling safe before.

    3. Anax*

      Actually, if you’re pretty sure he’s an aspie, and he seems friendly-ish –

      I would catch him over IM or when you both have five minutes free, and say something like this:
      “Hey, do you have a minute to talk? I noticed that you might have been missing a social norm, and I wanted to give you a heads-up. Nothing major.”

      This is useful because if he’s too busy or overloaded to have that conversation right now, you can do it another time – you don’t want him so frazzled that he’s not able to take in the information. I’m also being more reassuring than usual, because he sounds anxious, and having himself work himself into a tizzy also won’t help – this isn’t ‘lose your job’ territory, it’s ‘weird and annoying.’

      Then, I would say something like this:

      “I’ve noticed that you really jump out of the way when I pass you in the hall. It seems like you’re trying to be respectful by giving people a lot of space to walk. Am I reading that right, or is there something else going on?”

      (Another possibility is that he’s really, REALLY touch-averse in general, for instance. If you know that, say, he has awful anxiety attacks when he touches someone, so he overreacts to make sure that won’t happen, maybe that would also make you feel better. Or maybe he heard that you don’t like to be crowded, so he’s engaging in a misguided attempt to make you comfortable. Or maybe he has some kind of depth perception issue and he’s really miscalculating distances, so he’s overcompensating. I would try not to pressure him to divulge disabilities – this is just a ‘stop me if I’m totally misreading’ comment.)

      If his answer makes sense, I’d say something like this:

      “It actually doesn’t come across as respectful – it makes me feel like you’re afraid of me, or like you’re trying to suck up to me in a really exaggerated way, and that makes me uncomfortable. Would you be okay with trying to just walk normally, as if I weren’t there? I’ll let you know if you get close enough to make me uncomfortable, but I think it’s really unlikely; there’s a lot of room in these halls, and as long as you’re not actually bumping into me, I don’t think you’ll bother me just by walking down the hall.”

      As an aspie, it’s super helpful when people take the time to tell me what’s going on in words – I miss a lot of nonverbal cues, because I have trouble with body language, facial expressions, and tone. It’s also really helpful to me when I can trust that if I DO mess up, people will tell me – otherwise, I’m always trying to guess whether people are secretly upset or frustrated with me, and that makes me really anxious.

      I think this would be a fine conversation to have if you’re on ‘hi, how are you?’ terms – not actively hostile, and he hasn’t shown obvious signs that he doesn’t like to talk at all. I don’t think you need more of a relationship than a very casual ‘friendly recognition’ relationship for something like this – any more than you would need one to ask someone to stop bumping into you or stepping on your feet in the hall. Especially because he’s pretty new and there’s a good chance that he DOESN’T know all the office norms yet.

    4. nonegiven*

      Maybe he has accidentally bumped people and feels bad about it. If I didn’t go out of my way not to bump people, I am clumsy enough to miss whole doorways. Just ignore him.

  165. Convo*

    I’ll try to make this as brief as possible, but there are a lot of details. I started at a new company several months ago. I really like the people, the culture, the work…all of it. The company has great benefits and I’m making good money.

    In my department, there’s a coworker, Betty, who has been with the company for decades. She is in a role at least one level below mine (she is a supervisor, I’m in a senior role above supervisor level, and we report to the same manager). Betty is very knowledgeable and seems to know a lot about what goes on from day to day. She’s admittedly a very controlling person who hoards information and doesn’t trust others to do things as well as she does. She’s over one specific area of our department that has several employees reporting into it. Her direct reports love her, but are also irritated by her controlling ways on a regular basis. They’ve all worked together for many years, and they’ve allowed boundaries to blur, so they’re Facebook friends, know things about each others’ personal lives, etc. Her group hosts lunches and other small celebrations for milestones in her life that they don’t host for one another, or others in the department. They’ve basically created a weird dynamic where the department revolves around Betty, but she drives everyone nuts.

    Betty seems to feel threatened by me, and since I started, she has never missed an opportunity to remind me how little I know about the inner workings of this company. She also makes snide comments about my intelligence, capabilities, and world view in front of my boss. For example, if I suggest a positive approach to a problem, she’ll say to our boss, “Isn’t it cute how she thinks people will actually do the right thing?” It’s grating and it annoys me. For what it’s worth, I’m in my 40’s with a lot of work experience and I’m a high performer. People often comment on my intelligence – and I don’t say that to brag, just to establish that I’m not dumb, and I don’t say dumb things. Betty is cynical and our manager has a similar world view. I tend to be more optimistic.

    Betty is not overtly mean towards me – she’ll laugh and joke, come into my office to chat, and sometimes she’s helpful. Other times, she snaps at me, says she’s too busy to answer my questions, and purposely avoids training me/cooperating with my projects. She’s gotten away with it because of our department’s overall workload, but to me, it definitely feels like she’s purposely hindering my progress.

    Fast forward to this week…the global director of our department (my grand boss) came for a visit to our plant and to meet me in person for the first time since I joined the company. He has a great vision for the department and I really like him. He made a point of saying to me, no less than 4 times, that he only gained approval to add my position to the group so his specific strategy can be executed. I was floored when he told me the strategy in detail, because it’s a great opportunity for me, it’s something I’d love to do, and it will set me up to step into a management role. It’s basically to level up my knowledge of the area Betty heads up, so I can eventually take it over and her position will be eliminated and/or change. Part of my role will be to make this area operate more efficiently, and to level up the other employees so they can grow into new things and we can reduce a lot of non-value-added work. I’m excited about all of this, and it will really grow my career.

    I honestly believe the company will find another role for Betty. I don’t believe I’ll be pushing her out. And I think it’s the right move – her negativity and uncooperative nature causes a lot of issues with other departments and has made her team very jaded. She’s rude to others when it’s totally uncalled for, and she basically has tantrums in meetings when she doesn’t get her way. In short, even though she has great experience/knowledge, I see her as a problem employee. And I came to that conclusion long before I heard the strategy for my role.

    Betty’s resistance to helping me has created other issues for me. Our manager continues to lean on her for most of his insight into the department, which makes me feel left out. Often in meetings, I feel like I can’t speak intelligently or answer questions of people outside the department, because I’m not kept in the loop. There are specific metrics my grand-boss said I’m supposed to be learning, but my manager and Betty sit down together to complete them every month – without me. Betty has an attitude that it will take too long to explain things to me, so she’ll just handle them herself. My boss has only been here a few months longer than me, so it’s not like he and Betty have worked together for years.

    My grand-boss says Betty doesn’t know the strategy, but she may sense something is in the air, based on the way she treats me. My real problem is this: I’ve been here almost a year and my boss has never outlined this strategy for me the way my grand-boss did. My boss really seems to like Betty, and although he admits she has real issues, he doesn’t seem to be in any hurry to address them. He is not pushing her to train me, he is not pushing me to learn her area, and in many ways, it feels like he’s structuring the group in a way that won’t support our grand-boss’s vision. This directly affects my immediate career path, and will do real harm to my career goals if it isn’t corrected. Also, I believe when a global director tells you something 4 times, he wants you to hear it. He told me 4 times that I was put in place to execute this strategy. It left me with a strong sense that if I don’t grow into this role, there may not be a position for me long-term. In addition to this, I just feel disrespected. Someone who is lower than me in the organization is refusing to cooperate with me and she’s getting away with it. She’s treating me more like a child than a superior.

    So here’s the question (finally)…Betty is out on leave for the next few months. This is a perfect time for me to jump in and learn whatever I want without her getting in the way. But I want to have a serious conversation with my boss about my concerns and why this strategy hasn’t been acted upon until now. I want him to understand the direct impact to my role here and my future. My boss and I have a great relationship and he recruited me from a previous company, so he has a ton of confidence in my abilities. I just need to understand where he stands on the Betty issue, and the overall strategy. I’m going to talk to him soon. What should I say? Should I steer clear of my concerns about Betty and just address my career path? Or should I tackle all of it, including Betty’s attitude and treatment of me, because it will reinforce that our grand-boss’s strategy really is what’s best for the department and company? If you’ve read this far, God bless you, and I welcome your insight. :)

    1. Colette*

      You’ve only been there a few months. I would leave both Betty and your career path out of it, and work on learning everything you need to know to do your job well – including the stuff your grand-boss said he’d like you to learn. Betty is out, so this is a good opportunity to figure out the things she doesn’t want to train you on. Take advantage of it and focus on that.

      1. valentine*

        You don’t have a good relationship with your boss. He’s excluding you on the metrics and letting Betty condescend to you in front of him.

        Do what you can to deal directly with grandboss. If you find out he really wants boss to be the filter, that’s too bad; otherwise, this is your path to fulfill his vision in a way that takes you ever further from Betty’s BS. Read the letter/update from the finance OP who self-sabotaged and got her whole department fired by taking them for beer during work hours and defying her boss to exclude/punish a Rising Star who quit over it. Imagine Betty as the boss to your Rising Star. How would you work around her to get to where her boss intended you to go?

    2. WellRed*

      Are you sure your boss knows about the big plan? I think while Betty is out you should learn all you can, but I think for now I’d steer clear of Betty concerns. For now.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree to leave discussions of Betty out of this at the moment. I do think that a meeting with your boss, outlining the information and instruction grandboss gave you, and asking to set up a work plan to achieve the goals that you were given by grandboss. Don’t address the past or the personal dynamics between you, boss, and Betty. Just focus on setting the action plan for the future. Then document the things decided in the meeting and email to boss so there’s a written copy of the plan that you both agreed to. Best of luck.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s out for a few months? Oh gurl, just pretend she’s a non-concern now, you have the perfect opportunity now to slide in and take over wherever you’ve been stonewalled before.

      Only after she’s returned and if there are issues, then you can bring them up but leave that for the future. Without her there hovering and being the “go to” person, it’ll change the dynamics on their own.

  166. TUAZ & LGM*

    I am hoping you all will be able to provide some advice on how to turn down a job candidate that is also a client of my business.

    Background: we are a small family business, service oriented, that is looking for an assistant. One of our clients had the minimum required credentials, and applied for the position. This person did not interview well, and overall, we don’t think that the candidate would be a good fit for our team.

    We always send follow-up to candidates to not keep their hopes up, but this is a delicate situation because we don’t want to risk losing this client and their family.

    Any suggestions on how to frame a “thank you, but no thank you” email are much appreciated!

    1. Colette*

      “Thanks for your interest! I enjoyed talking with you about the X position. Unfortunately, we have decided to move forward with other candidates. I wish you well with your job search!”

  167. HigherEd on Toast*

    One of my colleagues has e-mailed me for “help in the process of extending her maternity leave,” and I’m baffled. I don’t work in HR, I’m not an administrator, and we also don’t have the kind of sick leave policy where we can “donate” days to each other. (Not that it would much matter if we did, since she’s asking for an extra year- parental leave at the university is usually a semester plus a summer- and donated leave would add up to weeks at most). My name was the only one on the e-mail, so maybe she is e-mailing everybody for help but doing it individually? Just, what a weird request to make of a colleague. I just recommended that she talk to her department head and the Dean.

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Do you have the same name as somebody else? She might have gotten the wrong HigherEd on Toast.

      1. HigherEd on Toast*

        No. There is no one else at the university with my last name, and my first name is fairly common but with a wild spelling people never get right, so any mistake she started typing into the e-mail field wouldn’t give her me as a result.

        1. Someone Else*

          If she in general emails you more than person-with-similar-name it still might’ve autofilled and she didn’t pay enough attention to notice, same first letter might’ve been enough.

    2. nonegiven*

      “I really don’t understand how you expect me to help with your maternity leave, so I assume you meant to email someone else.”

  168. Intern Eve*

    Lurker making a first time post. Sorry if this is a wall of text, or if I make any mistakes. I want to be as anonymous as possible, but it feels like my situation is so specific that anyone who works closely with me will recognize this, so please don’t repost it.

    Introduction: (extra information I feel might make my opinion about my coworker clear, even though it might identify me more. You can skip this paragraph if you want)
    I have a coworker who I have a minor problem with. We don’t work closely together, but we go to lunch fairly often, and I’m suspicious of him having feelings for me. (Months ago, I butchered a “we’re just friends” statement so bad that I got a message from him generally saying that he would be open to dating. I think I had a panic attack. Sorry for the tangent, that’s my ADHD kicking in. ;P) Because of my suspicions, I have made it a point to only accept his lunch invitations only if I know other people are going. I do try and be polite with him, More recently, I’ve been trying to shut down more of his less-than-funny jokes, and that’s exactly what happened here.

    Last week, a group of five of us went to lunch. There’s Alex, Bob, Chris (the “problem” coworker), Denise, and me. Alex and Bob are both of Middle Eastern descent, and Alex really wanted to take us to a food court inside of a Middle Eastern supermarket. Lunch goes by without a hitch, and Bob sees something next to the register that he wants to buy. I’m holding his leftover food for him while he’s making the purchase (they serve a lot of food LOL) and I see a box of tea, $9 for 100 sachets. My brain screams, “That’s a great deal,” so I get the tea. Chris was waiting for me outside the door since everyone else had gone back to the car and he sees the tea.

    He giggled, “Sad AF.”

    The brand name printed on the box is Sadaf.

    I could feel my respect for him plummet. To top it all off, as we got out of the car, he turned to Bob, “Bob, did you see Eve’s tea?”
    “Yeah, Sadaf?”
    I couldn’t help myself, “He thinks it’s funny because he reads it as ‘Sad As F*ck.'” I didn’t turn around to look at them, so I don’t know if Bob or Chris said anything. Remember, Bob is also Middle Eastern.

    I realize this is more rant than question, but I’m feeling a bit conflicted. I’m not Middle Eastern, and while I’m not white, I feel like I might be feeling offended for no good reason. I’m not entirely sure that offended is the right word, but I felt something. Am I off base? Also, I stink at coming up with responses on the spot, so what wording can I use to call him out, other than making sure he’s older than 12? Can I call him out at all?

    If it’s relevant, I’m in my mid-20s, he’s in his early 30s I think.

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      It sounds to me like you’re at BEC levels with him. He made a joke about a name, referencing a common slang, and if it came from someone you liked, maybe you’d have brushed it off as a stale joke or rolled your eyes and forgotten it or whatever (I don’t know how you normally respond), but you don’t like him and you already know you don’t like his jokes, so it comes off as more serious.

      Don’t call him out. Just stop going to lunch with him.

      1. ket*

        Agree. Don’t go to lunch with him.

        And while you say you butchered a “we’re just friends” statement, I’ll throw out there that there’s a good chance you said it just fine and he’s the type who will twist it into anything he wants because he doesn’t want to hear you. The guy is messing with you because you feel bad that’s he’s messing with you. He’ll love it if you call him out. Then he can tell you about how you misunderstood him or are too sensitive.

    2. BadWolf*

      I guess it depends if he would giggle at Western/English words as well, or if it’s more of a “funny foreign words.”

      In the future, a blase/confused, “I suppose” might work (in response to the original giggle). Although, your blunt explanation in the car seems like it would have deflated the “joke” pretty well.

      Also, after being burned/surprised by some psuedo-date lunches, I am now very careful about one on one lunches.

    3. Murphy*

      I’m in my 30s, and I would might have giggled at “sad af” tea.

      I agree with spaghetti and meatballs. I think you just don’t like this dude.

    4. Delphine*

      I don’t think you’re off base. It’s disrespectful. Sadaf is a brand of food, but it’s also a name, and considering the history of white people butchering non-English names and being rude to people who have those names, I also would have corrected Chris at that moment. But I wouldn’t do more; it’s just too much work to put in to fix a person who probably doesn’t care enough to change his behavior.

    5. Anon Anon Anon*

      I’m guessing the tone was part of the issue, that it sounded like a spiteful jab and not a friendly joke. And that if so, he might be intentionally being mean because he feels rejected or because he thinks he can gain your affection by cutting you down and making you feel bad. It strikes me as that kind of situation based on your reaction. If that’s right, I think your best bet is to avoid him as much as possible. And/or let someone else know that he’s bothering you so you won’t be dealing with it alone.

    6. RandomU...*

      What would you call him out on? People make jokes about double meaning/lost in translation between languages (even when there isn’t a translation element to it) all the time without being a racist if that’s where you are going with this. I do not see anything that is screaming racism here, at worst I’d call it juvenile and sophomoric (My litmus test for that is if I can picture any of the characters from Southpark making the same joke)

      What does the dating/just friends situation have to do with this? I’m not seeing the connection, but you wrote it as background so I’m thinking you are making an additional connection that I didn’t get.

      I guess the only thing I can advise on is if you do want to call him out on something, I would figure out what to say if you had the chance to say it on the spot and tweak it for the discussion now.

      1. Drax*

        That’s actually a wonderful litmus test. It’s like how the guys I work with (and myself, who am I kidding) laugh about saying PPE because you said pee-pee. It’s juvenile not malicious.

    7. Drax*

      I am West Indian, but I can see the humor in some of the names/words looked at in an English context – like how fanny pack in the US is fine but is quite vulgar in the UK, same word but they have wildly different meanings.

      I think you did call him out appropriately. It sounds like you called him out about him finding it funny and left, which he would have to be rather tone deaf to not realize you did not find it funny. It kinda seems like you’re wanting to make him do something to acknowledge it which he doesn’t need to. He may apologize next time you see him, he may have just filed it away that these things Are Not Funny To Intern Eve and will act accordingly going forward.

      I think you should leave it and if it happens again, then there is an opportunity to say these things Are Not Funny.

    8. LawBee*

      I think there’s a difference between “Sadaf is hilarious because it’s a middle eastern name and weird and also hahahaha swearing” and “hahaha swearing is funny because I am immature teeheehee”. This reads as the second to me. Also, I have laughed at random “af” in the world myself.

      You don’t like the dude, and that’s fine. Stop going to lunch with him.

    9. Intern Eve*

      Commenting here as a general response instead of replying numerous times. Thank you guys so much for your responses! I definitely see that I am far more biased against things he says, and I do agree with most of you that he didn’t mean it to be offensive and that it came more from immaturity. So thank you guys for snapping my head back on straight and helping me see that.
      Back in college I used to work with international students to help them navigate American culture, and many of the students were Middle Eastern, so maybe that made me more sensitive to the joke, coupled with Chris trying to make the same joke to Bob who is Middle Eastern.

      As I mentioned, I definitely don’t go to lunch one-on-one with him anymore, but as annoying as he can be, he’s also very good at filling pauses in conversation, which is one thing I do appreciate because I am not a conversationalist in any way. In fact, I actually posted my question before going out to lunch with Bob and Chris, and just got back. LOL Nothing eventful, and no weird jokes!

      1. valentine*

        Seems like you feel the need to police him. Stop going to lunch with him because it leads to unnecessary things like him waiting for you at the door.

        His intent doesn’t matter. What he said is offensive and, while you felt it was offensive, you did the same thing and compounded it when you made a point of (1) repeating the offense (2) to a Middle Easterner.

  169. AJ*

    I may have talked our department into including a skills exercise when we hire the next time (thanks AAM!) My question is if anyone has ideas for skills exercises for laboratory technicians? We hire research associates for product development, so we are looking for technical laboratory skills but also reasoning, report writing, some math. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

    1. JobHunter*

      As you can see by my name, I am currently searching (coincidentally, for a research & development position). Interviewing is stressful enough without a math test! An interviewer recently asked me two good knowledge- and skill-assessment questions that you might be able to use.

      1) What was the most technically difficult thing you have done at the bench? Describe what made it difficult.

      2) Describe a process or experiment for which you were responsible. What steps did you take to execute the process and what was the outcome? It’s ok to get technical. (The interviewer followed up with additional questions about my answers.)

      You might provide some sample results and a rubric for writing a brief summary of an assay. However, I have never been asked to demonstrate lab skills during an interview, so I would not expect to unless it was stated in the listing.

  170. Ali G*

    I am wondering if this is something worth bringing up or not:
    Our office is moving, but our new space is not ready yet, even though we have to be out of the current space in a few weeks. While we are in “swing space” we will all be working in a large room at desks – so all open with assigned workstations. The workstation I was assigned is in the back of the space near the windows (yay), but my back is facing the open room with everyone behind me (boo). This causes me angst in a big way, especially since I planned to use my noise cancelling headphones while I am in the swing space so I can concentrate (I am used to working in an office). I hate having m back to a room and this is exacerbated but not being able to hear what is going on.
    The two people on each side of me are on the opposite sides of their tables, and I am trying to decide if I could ask one of them to switch with me so I could face the room. The one wrinkle is I am an Exec and while one of the others is a long time employee, the other newer, but they are both junior to me.
    Is it bad form for me to ask them to switch? Should I just suck it up for 6-8 weeks until we get our actual space? I should note I can WFH as needed (but the CEO, my boss has asked us to model behavior for the group and be in as much as we can), and I will be traveling out of state a handful of times during the time, so it’s not everyday I will be in the space.
    Thoughts?

    1. Squeeble*

      Given that you’re senior to the other two people, they might feel pressured to switch with you even if they really don’t want to. I definitely sympathize, though. You might instead be able to WFH more frequently during this time, since it’s only 6-8 weeks. And put a little mirror on the side of your monitor so you can see if people approach you.

      1. Ali G*

        Yeah that was my worry. I like the mirror idea – thanks! Maybe I’ll try it out and if I can’t hack it I’ll talk to them about how often they plan to be in the office and I cold use their space while they are out. I certainly don’t want to pressure anyone into switching with me, especially for a temp situation.

        1. Jess*

          There might be a way to put it out there without pressure — e.g., “if either of you would *prefer* to be facing the window for the next 6 weeks, I’d be happy to switch.”

          1. valentine*

            Since they are facing the room, why can’t you spin your workspace around so you are, too? It’s better to be next to an exec than to face one like this.

  171. hire me please*

    How do I move past the first round of interview (phone or digital interview)? I’m a college student looking for a summer internship. After I got in my current position which is related to what I’m looking for (HR), I got more interview offers. BUT I never make past the 1st or 2nd round and get an offer. I practiced with my friends, got advices from them, tailor my answers and try to be more confident (still trying) but what can help me stand out and move further in the process? After plenty of interviews, I have not got anything so I start to feel discouraged. Interviewers do not want to share feedback and I understand. But I feel like I’m trying to fix something that I don’t even know what needs to be fixed!

    1. ArtK*

      Sadly, there’s no magic formula. It sounds like you’re doing the right things to prepare.

      One way to think about job searching is this: This is not a pass/fail test. Even if you have all the right answers, you still may not get the job. Think of it more as being graded on a curve. If there are some really great people in the class (candidate pool), you may not get the job. You’re competing against them not just yourself. I’ve had classes where I got 90% right, but still got a ‘B’ because the class average was 85% and someone got 99% or 100%.

  172. Latina GalPal*

    I live in South America and want to relocate to Europe, since I have European double citizenship. I tried applying for a ton of jobs that fit my profile to a T a while ago, but I didn’t manage to get any interviews – except for one place who contacted me so I could do a first phone interview, but as I was presenting myself the interviewer realized I didn’t actually live in the country where the job posting was, so they decided not to interview me after all. I was heartbroken and also a bit offended that the interviewer didn’t bother to review my resume before making me waste my time preparing for the interview and finding excuses and time off from my day-to-day duties at my job to do the interview.

    So I was wondering… I have a friend who lives in the UK. How ethical would it be to put their address in my resume, with their consent, of course? Would that be a bad idea? A few people suggested I do this, but it kinda feels like it’s one of those things that would potentially bite me in the ass later on. They still live with their parents btw so it wouldn’t be a case of I could live with them if I got a job.

    As context, I have over six years of experience in a type of job that is usually considered entry level, and although I’m trying to move up the ladder, most companies ask for at least a bit of experience in anything above my level, and unfortunately I’ve been having a really hard time getting that experience in the jobs I’ve had so far, including my current one.

    1. Introvert girl*

      If you search for jobs on toplanguagejobs or europeanlanguagejobs, they don’t care where you live, as long as you’re willing to move to that country.

    2. KayEss*

      I don’t think it’s entirely terrible to use your friend’s address or leave the address off entirely, but you should still probably be up-front in your cover letter and definitely in any interviews about where you currently live, that you’re planning to relocate to Europe, and that you already have citizenship and do not require sponsorship for a work visa (assuming that’s the case). Unfortunately most places are just not going to be interested in hiring an overseas candidate if there are similar local ones available.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Are you looking for jobs on the Continent or in the U.K.? Because after the end of March it may not actually be an advantage to put a U.K. address on your resume, if you’re looking for a job elsewhere in Europe.

      But other than that issue, it can be very, very hard to convince a prospective employer to take a chance on interviewing or hiring you, if you don’t have an address that is reasonably local. If you haven’t done so already, make it very clear in your cover letter and your resume that you have a firm date by which you expect to arrive in the country you’re moving to. Also make it clear that you are legally authorized to work in the destination country. Good luck!

    4. Ali G*

      I worry that if you present as being local there will be weirdness if you get an in-person interview. You would then have to tell them where you really are coming from and then there is awkwardness around who pays for travel costs to the interview. Even if the job isn’t “local” to your friend’s place it’s very different than coming from another continent. It could be seen as misleading by the hiring company.

    5. Rez123*

      I’m in the same boat. Trying to relocate. I asked a similar question here and the advice was to put down my boyfriends address if I’m able to come in for any face to face contact like a local would. If it’s not possible then it will look dishonest. Also another advice was to put down to the locaion your current one and thenput down “relocating april/20119” so it looks like you will be there soon even if that is not the case. I have my current location there but in my cover letter it says I’m looking to relocate and then a few different reasons. I kinda want to put down my boyfriends address. I am able to pop over relatively quickly but I not necessarily within few days notice. Also in my experience the initial interview is face to face so there will be other 10 people so It’s not like anyone has been screaned beforehand

      Does anybody think it might be good to put down my boyfriends address and then in the cover letter say that I’m relocating there? So based on my address I don’t automatically go to the “no” bile but I’m not lyng in my cover letter?

      1. Jasnah*

        I think that is a good way to handle it. “I am planning to relocate in April 2019, this will be my address when I do.”

  173. Nessun*

    Last week I posted about my change in role, and how I’m now juggling the old role and the new one. This week has been more of the same busy busy schedule, but I did have two calls from my two new bosses this week, asking me how I’m doing and letting me know that if I need them, extra resources can be allocated. I appreciate their concern, and that they’re checking in, but I’m not sure what to do with the offer for assistance. I’ve managed to get closer to regular working hours this week, and my main stress points are learning/comprehension based – my stress will go down as I figure out what I’m doing, and mostly that comes from the doing (there’s not a lot of research or courses or anything I can look to).

    So if they were to hire someone for the period from now until November (when there IS another full-trained resource slotted to be available), I’d need to train that person in addition to fielding questions from the person I’m currently already downloading things to (who is a very capable temp, 6 months with my group so far). I’m caught between liking the idea of someone else to download to when I get busy, and disliking (intensely) the idea of training a new hire (probably also a temp) while trying to figure out my new job. Anyone have an experience with either scenario? I can pull the cord to ask for help at any time – right now I’m just examining options.

  174. Meredith Brooks*

    I have to do an informal check-in with my employee Gilly. She generally does a good job, but there are some areas that need improvement. I have to tell her that there are things she does that can be perceived as rude at best and dismissive at worst (she is territorial over her projects and can be challenging or abrupt with people when discussing her projects and she is frequently on her phone in meetings, particularly if she doesn’t like someone). Gilly does not take feedback well. I am literally dreading this meeting. As it will likely either end in tears or sulking and I have no stamina for either.

    1. fposte*

      How often do you have regular meetings with Gilly? If this has been going on for a while and this is the first conversation, I’d suggest that standing meetings are worth putting in place for all your employees.

      Do look over the several Alison columns about employees who aren’t good at taking feedback, too. It’s okay for her to be quiet after getting pulled up, and that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s sulking, but she still has to respond to people in a professional manner.

      1. Meredith Brooks*

        I have a bi-weekly meeting with her to go over projects. Some of these issues have been covered during specific instances. But, as it’s still occurring, she obviously views it as an event-related occurrance. I will have to lay it out as something to be more mindful of on the whole.

        I wouldn’t mind her being quiet, but she truly is sulking. And perhaps worse is that she has acknowledged (after the fact) when she’s been sensitive or defensive. But, when it happens, she stops engaging when you try to explain why a decision has been made or why something she might want can’t happen and the conversation literally shuts down. I’ve made the decision that if it should happen in this meeting, I will tell her that she needs to be better-able to take feedback or it will limit her opportunities for growth professionally.

        1. Colette*

          I agree she needs to get better at taking feedback.

          But …
          Does she need to explain why a decision has been made? Will it help her (or you) get better outcomes if she understands?

          And, if she does need to understand, can that part of the conversation be done later (i.e. the next day) so that she has time to get over the sulking? (I don’t love that as a solution, but doing it all at once doesn’t seem to be getting you what you want as far as her understanding.)

          1. Meredith Brooks*

            I don’t know if she needs a thorough explanation, but she does take things personally and if you don’t explain the situation, she will and has assumed the worst, which can occasionally cause her to spiral until you end up with a much more lengthy conversation that is much more philosophical and personal than anyone should be involved in at work.. She’s also in a senior enough position that she should either listen to the explanation or just accept the result. I almost think it would be enabling bad behavior to wait until she’s capable of listening, because that’s just not how my industry works. Everything happens fast and you’re not always going to get a second chance for detail.

            1. Colette*

              What about having the conversation as normal and then following up with a written recap?

        2. LQ*

          I work with someone like this. He still struggles but talking about the big picture with him a lot helps. He’d really like to fight the decisions a lot but he’s starting to see how they fit into a bigger picture and how that helps him professionally and I think that’s been a big part of the change.

          Big picture here is for our organization, but he sees himself here for a long time and he believes that he could be put into a pretty crititcal role in his space. I’ve been fairly clear that I won’t support that unless he starts driving toward the big picture as a whole and he’s responded well. I think because I laid out that expectation of him.

          Dude I’ll give you a chance to show off the things you want to, but you have to do them in a way that lines up with what we do and how we do it. If you can get on the train you can succeed. If not, I don’t think you should just sit on the tracks all huffy.

    2. Kathenus*

      Try to have as many specific examples as possible. Attitude-related feedback is very tough when it’s general, so make it as clear as possible with examples. Also, phrasing it along the lines of ‘you generally do good work, this is something that can hold you back and I want to see you succeed’ can be a more motivating and positive way to address things. Good luck.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Call her out on the sulking: “I need you to be able to take feedback in a professional manner, that means no X,Y or Z behaviors.”

      1. valentine*

        I need you to be able to take feedback in a professional manner
        Yes. You’re coddling her. You’ve chipped away at her BS, but she’s got you worried about her feeeeelings (ew) when she should be coming up with ways not to cry at work. Is her work worth all this?

        Only explain if you really want to and would for a reasonable person in her role. If she won’t listen, too bad. If she catastrophizes, shut her down. You can walk away or tell her to leave. Don’t let her run your meetings.

  175. hmmm*

    My friend is a college student who is looking for an internship. recently she told me she called a company and someone picked up. he offered to help with finding a spot in the company though she found out later that he isn’t the hiring manager and not even in HR. She wants the job obviously so she agreed to add him on LinkedIn. After finding out she’s a certain ethnicity, he brought up his experience in her home country and requested her to talk to him via a messaging app that’s really popular in her country but not common in the US (Red flag 1). He keeps texting her everyday like they’re friends though she tries to steer the attention to the job. She even brought up her husband because she sensed he tries to get something else but he kept texting her and none of them is related to what she needed his help with (Red flag 2). They set up a phone interview which he mistaken the date she was available and called when she was busy and got mad because he wasted his time. Later he acted all nice again and asked if my friend want to grab coffee when she’s back in town (his company is in the same town she’s from but not currently at) (Red flag 3) At this point I told her to just cease communication because he is so unprofessional and he wants to date her, not help her. I even suggested her to report to his company because this is just so unprofessional and weird. She doesn’t really want this job and dont see any chance at it with the way he loops her around but she still talks to him. What should she do? Should I report on her behalf? Is this common behavior?

    2. Reba*

      Your advice was right on, but you can’t make your friend follow it. I don’t think it’s something *you* can report to the company.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      You are right, he is unprofessional and skeevy.

      I’m not sure what there is that *you* could report. He isn’t in HR, he isn’t a hiring manager, and it sounds like she was aware of that pretty early on. So all you could report is that you heard second-hand that your friend doesn’t like him but keeps texting him anyway.

      That’s not really something the company can act on.

      If his texts were overtly sexual, offensive, or abusive/threatening, or if he were stalking her, she could report him and be taken seriously.

      But she has the power to stop this immediately by ceasing contact and blocking his number. He has no power over her getting a job, and never did. There’s no reason why she has to put up with his nonsense.

      If she keeps complaining about it while continuing to chat with him, perhaps you should ask her what outcome she is looking for, and what she intends to do about it.

      1. valentine*

        hmmm can report that he’s grossly misrepresenting the company by stringing along a student seeking an internship.

        she called a company and someone picked up. […] he isn’t the hiring manager and not even in HR. She wants the job obviously so she agreed to add him on LinkedIn.
        Your friend needs to read the advice here about proper points and methods of contact and predators. Does he even work there? He could be anybody.

  176. ket*

    Oh so many comments above me! But hey!

    I’m in academia and looking at switching to industry. A grant I’m submitting in March will be reviewed over the summer and funding would start in September if it was funded. I am not very replaceable on this grant, though I am also not the PI. Let’s say it’s an NIH grant. Does anyone know if I could be paid as a consultant to do the work for the grant even if I’ve gone into an industry position? There most likely would not be a conflict of interest on the topic (as I’m a subject-matter-expert on this grant in a field I’m not really in — for instance, I’m the stats person on a cancer grant but I’m not in cancer research).

    1. Overeducated*

      First question, would you have time? This sounds like something you’d be doing on top of an industry job, which just doesn’t sound terribly feasible if it would be full time otherwise?

      Second question, would the university let you? It’s their responsibility to meet the federal requirements, and they’ve probably had someone on a grant leave the university before, so perhaps their Sponsored Projects office would have examples of how this has been handled. They may not be able to hire you on as an official consultant per se depending on how they interpret competitive selection requirements, but they may have other potential solutions like keeping you on as some kind of part time staff “research associate” who gets paid through the university but isn’t given benefits, or hiring you through a temp agency, or something. (The temp thing sounds weird, but I was non-competitively hired to work on a federal grant the year after I graduated that way, I’d never have thought of it myself.)

      1. ket*

        Thanks, Overeducated! I should ask Sponsored Projects.

        On the one hand, I might not have time if I get a full-time industry position. On the other hand, I’m doing an annoying thing that people sometimes do due to funding cycles: I’m doing some of the work now that we’re applying for funding for, because this is a grant that was submitted to another funding agency previously and more preliminary work was requested ‘to show feasibility’. Well, at some point it’s easiest to show it’s feasible by just doing my part of the work (think writing all the code to do the analysis). If the grant is funded, I just need to plug in the data. But I’m in essence doing the work now hoping to be paid later.

        Anyhow, thanks for your ideas!

    2. anonymous for this*

      I work at a funding agency. I can only speak for my employer, but on most of our operating grants we do allow payments to consultants, including those in private industry, as long as they’re in line with the specific guidelines for each program and there’s no conflict of interest. I assume that the funding agency makes budget guidelines available to applicants, so I’d recommend looking at what they allow regarding consultant payments, if you haven’t looked already. If the PI needs to submit a change to the budget partway through the grant, that’s usually fine unless what they’re proposing is ineligible.

      I also agree with the suggestion to talk to the university’s Sponsored Projects office as they likely have experience with situations like this, and can advise the best way to proceed.

  177. Introvert girl*

    Has anyone ever worked in an office that forces you to surrender your cell phone at the reception and has most internet pages blocked? Also, timed toilet breaks. I’m actually talking about an open space office, not a nuclear power plant where this would make sense. By the way, I’m not talking about my office, but about a job I didn’t take because of all the above.

    3. ****

      I’ve had an employer that asked all employees to lock phones in their lockers outside the work area, and blocked most websites on the Internet used in the office (but had wifi people could use on their phones on breaks that didn’t have the same restrictions).

      That felt plenty restrictive! The employer you described sounds worse again – I think you’re better off for avoiding it!

      1. LQ*

        I’ve known a few people who worked at places like this or similarish. But they were all military adjacent contractors. No one with the timed bathroom breaks though!

    4. Drax*

      …that’s actually pretty crazy. I worked somewhere when working with proprietary information we had to lock our phone in a drawer (and had to get someone to witness you doing it) but it was a drawer in our desk. Or have it locked in a personal locker.

      But reception? I think on principle I would turn off the ability to answer calls on the lock screen and turn the volume right up and call myself at least hourly out of spite.

      And the internet thing, sadly yes. That is fairly common here.

    5. WellRed*

      Do they time how long the toilet break takes or are they making you go at specific times? Either way it’s batshit, although the idea of them clocking how long I take to pee (stopwatch?) is appalling.

    6. L. S. Cooper*

      I have IBS. Anyone who wants me to time me in the bathroom is gonna be spending a looooot of time timing me.

    7. Fake old Converse shoes (not in the US)*

      The only time I heard about such a place was when someone was recalling their time working as IT support at a car factory. They only had access to the company sites and official knowledge base. Phones were allowed, but mobile internet was disabled, so you could only use it in case of an emergency.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Nope, and never even heard of this in a typical office. I would definitely not consider that company even if it was just one of those restrictions. I have worked places where you surrender your cell phone outside of certain classified rooms while you’re in those rooms but that’s for obvious info-sec reasons, not arbitrary can’t trust adults with phones reasons. And timed bathroom breaks is a ridiculous rule. Hard nope.

    9. elemenohp*

      Yes. I worked at a research center doing telephone surveys that made us do this. Checking in the phone was due to data security issues. No internet access and timed bathroom breaks was because it was a call center, and also government funded, so they needed to track every metric and justify every dollar spent.

      It was awful. I quit after two weeks.

    10. Mazzy*

      Hello no. I don’t even have any health issues and yesterday, the bathroom lights went off because I had supposedly been in there too long and they times out. So no.

    11. ..Kat..*

      I am happy to turn my phone off and put it in my employee locker. I am happy not to bring my phone into the office at all. But, I do NOT turn my phone over to anyone.

      1. Introvert girl*

        It’s a job for a very known international sports brand. And it isn’t help desk. They’ve been trying to find people for their SSC for the past couple of years but no one wants to work on these terms. Every year they keep on increasing the wage, but to no effect.

  178. Eight*

    So, after waiting almost 4 weeks, I finally received a request for references for my top choice out of the places where I’ve been interviewing. Very exciting—I was nervous because a different place I was less gung ho about contacted me about next steps a lot sooner (five references along with an extra application form, after I’d already applied online, completed a 25 minute assessment, and gone through 3 rounds of interviews…for an entry level administrative job). So I submitted my references for both, and today the director I interviewed with at my top choice emailed me to let me know that I was still under consideration and to apologize for the delay. I’m definitely going to reply and let her know that I’m still interested, but I’m tempted to mention that I’m also in the same stage in the process with another employer. Would there be any benefit to this, or is there a bigger chance of it backfiring?

    1. floppy disk*

      I wouldn’t mention it right now. If you get an offer from the other place while you’re still waiting to hear from your top choice, that’s when I’d bring it up.

      1. Eight*

        Thanks for the feedback, I figured as much. I wanted to say something along the lines of, “Out of all the opportunities I’ve been pursuing lately, this is the one I’m most excited about,” but it’s probably better to just restate my interest without hinting at a comparison.

  179. D.W.*

    I have been cleared to host our office cook-off this year (yay!). I plan to do it before I go on maternity leave in the next six weeks.

    I am planning on giving staff 4 weeks-notice, and I will send out reminders as well. As of now, the categories will be appetizer, entree, dessert.

    When I send out the calendar invite with contest rules and such, I plan to add language around encouraging contestant to be considerate of those dietary restrictions. We have several with gluten-intolerance and those that are vegetarian. The obvious reason, to me, is that the more people taste your food, the greater your pool of votes, but I don’t know if that will be enough incentive. Does anyone have other ideas?

    Any other suggestions welcome. I’ve never planned a cooking contest!

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Can you add categories/subcategories that are specifically Gluten-Free Entree, or Best Vegetarian Appetizer?

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        Seconding this. A community organization I belong to does this for their cook-off. Before they did, there was always a preponderance of meat dishes, because meat eaters usually vote for meat over veggies and people would think “I’ll never win with my bean chili.” Once they made that change, there was much more variety.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Are there prizes other than bragging rights? If so, maybe adding additional prize categories….best vegetarian dish, best gluten-free dish, etc. It might also push those that really love to cook, but don’t fall into those dietary restrictions, to try and up their chef game and step out of their comfort zone.

      1. LQ*

        Prizes don’t have to be big things too. I know other places that don’t allow jeans regularly but do jean’s stickers or whatever do stickers as prizes for these kinds of things. Or a super cheesy “plaque”. Swan napkins or take home containers. That kind of thing.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      While I would encourage people to be considerate of dietary restrictions, I wouldn’t make your language sound like you are forcing people to cook something they might not be comfortable with. I love to bake and I do actually bake really great “standard” stuff, but I ultimately fail at cooking anything gluten free and to be honest I really don’t like doing it and it takes a lot of the joy out of it for me. So encourage but don’t require. I do really like the suggestion to have specific categories.

      I would definitely require people to label, label, and label again so people know exactly what they are eating.

    4. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Oh and one other thing, which you may already be doing: everyone who submits a dish must provide a sheet of paper listing every single thing that went into the dish. No secret sauces, no secret family recipes. If someone resists, don’t accept their dish, since they might decide to not include everything and assume they’ll get lucky and no one will have an allergic reaction.

    5. FancyNancy*

      Another thing to consider is if the gluten intolerant people are actually going to eat the things cooked by people who aren’t familiar with that diet. Cross contamination and assumptions are easy when you have a gluten-friendly kitchen even with the best of intentions. I think a gluten free and veggie category would be good for the people that want to do that.

      1. ..Kat..*

        This. I don’t eat allegedly gluten free food prepared by people who have not learned extensively about gluten free. I am the one who suffers because they did not know that soy sauce has gluten, etc, etc.

  180. anon today*

    I know I’m getting in late here, but I’m situated between two very noisy coworkers (one likes to sing to herself, and since I’m next to her I’m probably the only one who can hear). I don’t want to spend the capital to talk to them because I’m hoping to be the team’s next supervisor and that will be enough of an adjustment without already being perceived as the fun police, so does anyone have any recommendations for reasonably-priced noise-canceling headphones?

    1. LawBee*

      I spend a lot of time on airplanes and airports, where being able to silence or at least muffle the world is a sanity requirement. I’ve also lost a LOT of expensive headphones designated as noise-canceling, and had to replace many many many.

      I’ve found that basic over-the-ear plush headphones that cover my entire ear, along with a white-noise app, works wonders. I don’t think I’ve spent more than $20 or $25 on a pair in years.

      1. valentine*

        If you can’t ask her to stop, how are you going to supervise? Asking her now is better than essentially saying, “Now that I have power, shut up” or, worse, “I can never say anything, even though she’s now subjecting someone else to this”.

    2. Reba*

      OTOH, talking with them about a potentially-slightly-uncomfortable, but pretty low-stakes situation would be good practice for being in a management role :)

      I got my Bose headphones at an outlet mall. I believe they also sell refurbs online?

  181. HMM*

    Has anyone here taken a gap year/traveled for a year/did a working holiday visa? If so, how did it impact your career prospects when you returned home (if you did return home, heh)?

    For context, I am US-based, in my late twenties, and already established in an HR career. I’m still pretty early on in my career, but I’ve made quick progress with several promotions in the last three years and am manager level at this point. If I had done this in my early twenties, I wouldn’t be so worried about picking up where I’ve left off, but given that I’m not a fresh college grad, I do wonder how much this will hurt my career in the long run.

    Overall, I’m leaning toward taking the time anyway while I still can – the age limit for most working holiday visas is typically 30 – and I’m confident I’ll be able to find a job when I return, even if it’s not in HR. I know that this will at least delay progress on my career, which I’m ok with temporarily, but I’d be curious to hear if there are any other stumbling blocks I should be aware of, or if you have any pointers/tips for navigating so much time away.

    1. Anon for level of detail*

      I did something similar, four years into my post-grad-school career. (I spent a year at a religious retreat.)

      I didn’t go back to the city I’d been living in (although I’m back now, a decade later) and it took me almost a year after finishing my retreat to find full-time paid work in my field. The job I ended up was a great move for me, though, with strong leadership opportunities and a 30% pay increase from the role I’d left to go on retreat.

      In the time between ending the retreat and getting that job, I did (crappy) part-time, contract work in my field.

      I don’t remember how I addressed the time off in my cover letter. I probably just ignored it. I left for my retreat riiiiiight before the 2008 financial collapse, so a gap on my resume (especially combined with a cross-country move) didn’t raise any eyebrows.

      I did talk about the retreat during interviews. I don’t recall it being a thing anyway; the retreat center was well-known and well-respected in its region, so folks were generally interested but not derailed by it.

      1. HMM*

        Thank you for the info! This is great to hear. I think that’s the general gist of the advice I’ve been getting – I’ll be able to overcome the gap, though it just might take awhile.

        Despite having excelled at it so far, I’m not super invested in my job and I’m open to finding a new career path afterward. I just wanted a reality check to make sure I’m not being too optimistic about my prospects!

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I worked in my career field for eight years, then from May 2012 (I was 31 when I left that day) to January 2014 was unemployed by choice. (Well. Technically I had a 10 hours a week minimum wage job for the last four months of it, but that was just to get me out of the house.) I returned to my career field with zero effort — like, I wasn’t even looking yet — and a local recruiter headhunted me for a temp position covering a long-term leave. That transitioned into a permanent position, I’ve been promoted once so far (into management) with another one coming soon (or so they tell me), and this summer will be my fifth anniversary as a permanent employee of my organization. So from what I can tell, no hiccups at all in my long-term career. :)

      The first eight years, I was in the Seattle area. When I left that job in May, it was to move back to the Midwest where I grew up (albeit not to my home state). I had deliberately saved up for a couple years so that I could go a while without job-hunting. During my time off, I traveled around the eastern half of the US, adopted a dog, did a lot of relaxing, made up for the fact that I hadn’t seen much of my parents in the previous ten years, and after a relative passed and left me a small unexpected inheritance (which is part of why my gap was so long, I had originally intended it to be like, six months), I planned a six-week solo trip through 9 countries in Europe.

      As far as what to do — if you have any certifications, make sure you maintain them. That, and plan ahead — make a budget for when you have no income, save save save, plan for health insurance if you need to, who’s going to watch your stuff while you’re gone, emergency contacts, all that jazz. Have a blast!!

      1. HMM*

        This is so good to hear. I’ve been unemployed by choice before, just for smaller gaps of time (2-4 months) and didn’t have trouble getting jobs after those, though that was far earlier in my career. I’m also in the Bay Area, which I think is more understanding of these things than most.

        I actually still intend to work for most of the time I’m away because I like routine, I want to meet people outside of a bar setting (especially since I’ll be older than the majority of other travelers!), and I still want to put some savings away toward retirement, but I imagine the jobs I’d take are going to be outside of HR. Great point on sustaining my certification though; I hadn’t thought of that!

        Thank you for the info!

  182. Anonfortoday*

    Just venting here because there’s no way I can share this with anyone at work. My judgey co-worker retired (finally) last week and I am now discovering that she basically did nothing for the last 3+ months she was here – ever since she gave notice of her retirement, essentially. I’m very, very frustrated, but everyone else at the company seems to think she walked on water and keeps talking about what a great asset she was. Our manager is remote, so even she wasn’t here to see things on a daily basis. I’m just trying to keep my mouth shut as whatever negative comment I make will just reflect badly on me, but I don’t appreciate having to clean up her sh*t pile. Grrrrrrrr.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      That was my situation at my last job. I took over for a woman who worked there for 10 years, and it seemed like she didn’t do anything for the last three or four. But everyone loooooved her. When I took over, I found reports that hadn’t been filed or logged for years, the files were a mess, and she was not holding up a lot of policies and certifications that she should have. I ended up rubbing a few people the wrong way because I actually enforced the policies we our department was supposed to and apparently everyone had forgotten that they existed. I really liked that job but the ghost of bad habits passed was a little difficult to deal with.

      It was also really difficult to hear people sing her praises when I was dealing with a mountain of her laziness on a daily basis.

      1. valentine*

        Tell your manager just how much there is. You don’t want to suffer silently doing 70% this crap and 30% other while she thinks this crap only takes 5 minutes a week. Also, if help would reduce it, you can say, “With two other people on this, we could finish in x time”.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      My manager is remote too, and one way I keep him in the loop is sending him an email each Friday telling what I’ve done this week and what I plan on doing next week.

      I’d start doing something like that (if you aren’t already), and list the things you are doing that everyone else thought that she had already done. In other words, make sure you get credit for cleaning up after her!

    3. Mazzy*

      Wait – No, comments on this will not reflect badly on you. Why do you think that? You owe it to your boss to let them know what you’re working on. If it’s retiree’s workload, it’s not bad at all to let it be known.

    4. Darren*

      Your boss definitely needs to know the current state of what has and has not been done. Stick to the facts, and have a recommended prioritisation between the things that haven’t been done and what you’d normally be working on that will over the next few months clean things up.

      You might find some of these things she didn’t do are actually more important than you expect and need to be done far more urgently and she might end up having to reprioritise work significantly as a result. If you don’t give her the heads up on the situation she might get blindsided and then you will actually be to blame for this.

  183. Danners*

    I’m semi-nervous to tell my boss that I’m pregnant. Not because I think he’ll be upset or judge me or do anything weird or illegal. But because we do work with the Navy, and sometimes my work involves being on ship, and a fellow mom friend told me once that pregnant women aren’t allowed on ship (her husband is Navy) and I will be annoyed if I lose out on opportunities because of this!

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      If there is an actual rule that doesn’t let pregnant folk on board a ship, get it in writing. (And then, well, I’m me so I’m like “call a lawyer” because I see this as just a continuation of “it’s bad luck for women to be on ships!”. But there might be a liability issue in terms of balance? But that’s still bull.)

      1. RandomU...*

        I’m avoiding work today, so googled this and yes there are some rules about pregnant woman on ships. Of course this is for Navy personnel, so there may be different rules for civilians. I would think that Danners could maybe find out what applies in her situation.

        1. Ali G*

          It probably has more to do with the length of deployment for Navy personnel. They probably do not want a woman going into labor hundreds of miles out to sea (and some deployments are months – years). Not sure what type of work Danners is doing, but if it’s just visiting ships while they are in port or something, it’s probably not a problem.

      2. OtterB*

        A plausible reason for the rule might be if the ship location would make it difficult to get you to medical care if necessary. But, yeah, Danners would have to check and see what applied to her. And then perhaps mention to her boss that she’s concerned about missing out on opportunities, so would like to take any measures they can to mitigate that.

  184. Undine*

    They are giving us “ladies” roses with lollipops for Women’s Day. I can’t even.

    3. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Happy women’s day, have some flowers and candy, because women love flowers and candy, amirite.

      Ugh. I’d feel happier if people ignored it rather than turn it into another Things To Be Endured.

    6. Maya Elena*

      What’s wrong with flowers? I like flowers.

      If they had ignored I’d I’m sure there would be gripes about them not even acknowledging the day.

      Obviously there are Meaningful things (more maternity leave) and Token things (flowers, posters) that have orders of magnitude different costs and are implemented by different departments. But Token Things, especially when they are done in good faith, are nice and should be encouraged, especially since they are often the first step to meaningful things.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The list of things that are wrong include:

        – A candy as replacement for real acknowledgement or reward
        – The problem of encouraging sexism by only acknowledging one gender in the workplace
        – The problem of issuing gifts that, by their nature, are rooted in sexist assumptions about what women like
        – Rubbing it into women’s face that there’s this one day as a reason to ignore or poorly treat them the other 364 days of the year

  185. Not my name*

    Let’s say my name is Kathy. I have a coworker who keeps calling me Cathie in their emails.

    They don’t like me, but I’m not sure they’ve got it together enough to be systematically disrespecting me; it’s likelier they just have no attention to detail.

    But it’s driving me crazy! Any tips on getting over it when I know it’s not likely to change?

    Also, how bad is my impulse to misspell their name every time they get mine wrong?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I sign off on every email with a signature that says AMBER in big letters and for years I’ve had reply emails calling me Amanda. It’s frustrating as hell, but I’ve never found a way around it. Let me know if you do.

    2. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      Maybe ask if the email is meant for someone else? But only if you can do it without being passive aggressive or snotty. … Because I tend to lean towards snottiness. So maybe when the email planets align and they email you, “Hey Cathie…” Just straight up ask. “Did you mean me, or is this meant for someone else? I want to make sure before I go forward with x.”

      1. Not my name*

        Unfortunately I’m the only one with my name, or even close to it. In my opinion they’re generally scatterbrained, and I have seen them misspell others names (though not as consistently as mine!) so rationally I know it’s just that.

        But it’s clear they also have a low opinion of me based on other interactions. I’m confident in my work and try to be diligent in giving them what they need within my power, but I think it’s a little of a BEC thing.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Just because you are the only one with this name doesn’t mean you can’t use this strategy.

  186. froodle*

    Ugh, I am at full bitch-eating-crackers with a coworker. This isn’t a question as much as a rant.

    She’s loud and gossipy and awful and will just pop in to other departments to bleat at high volume about people in the company who are doing things in ways she disapproves of. Not work related things, not things that are anything to do with her, just things that are mean-spirited and small-minded and petty and repulsive.

    “This person mixes yoghurt and weetabix as a midday snack, isn’t that diiisssguussssttting?” No, you absolutely rancid excuse for a human being, what’s disgusting is you bursting into a quiet office where six people are working, bleating at the top of your lungs that you dont like how so-and-so eats their cereal!

    We had a new receptionist start this week and apparently the receptionist found an injured pigeon in the parking lot, caught it in a box and called the spca to come get it. Which apparently rubs Foghorn Leghorn the wrong way because oh my God she could not wait to go from department to department hanging her nasty, gossipy hat on the judgemental hatstand of how very revolting and weird it was to do this.

    I don’t even have strong opinions on pigeons and weetabix but I’m coming down on the yoghurt-mush and bird-rescue side of it just because I find this woman so abhorrent. If she started flapping g her noise-tube able it now air was great I’d breathe water just to be on the opposite side of her. What an absolute Helen Lovejoy.

    1. irene adler*

      Oh how I hate these types!
      Why on earth do they think folks want to know this stuff?

      And kudos to the receptionist who helped the injured pigeon. Nothing wrong with a little kindness to animals.

      (Never thought about yoghurt +Weetabix before. Sounds good!)

      1. froodle*

        Right? Like a persons breakfast cereal choice does not affect my opinion of them one way or another but being a screamy wretch about what someone else eats *absolutely* gets side-eye

        And the pigeon thing bothers me even more! It’s such an understandable instinct and now this woman whose been here two seconds is being gossiped about for like… pretty much doing what Google tells you to it you google “i found an injured bird what do?”

    2. RandomU...*

      If it helps your post made me giggle :)

      Sorry you have ‘one of those’ in your office.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I’d like you to come narrate my life. I love the way you describe things.

      What’s wrong with rescuing an animal?? I volunteer at a wildlife rescue. There are tons of people who do that. What a loon.

      1. froodle*

        Hah! in my defence while a lot of the human commentary would be me hoping someone steps on legos, there would also be a fair amount of me excitedly shouting about dogs I’d seen.

        Ikr? Like I’ve never worked in any animal welfare type role but I would imagine a lot of their contact with the public is people calling them to tell them about a lost/feral/injured/abandoned animal for them to come collect? It just boggles the mind and her doing it to someone so new to the role that most of us don’t yet know the receptionists name makes it so extra ugly.

      1. froodle*

        She’s in her late forties minimum, it chafes my brain to think of 3+ decades of this behaviour

    5. LCL*

      My evil side is answering now. She says wind her up and have fun.
      ‘Weetabix and yogurt? What flavor yogurt? EVERYONE knows applejacks and yogurt are a much better choice. Should I ask manager to write a memo?’
      ‘A pigeon in a box, you say? Why did she do that? Maybe she was going to take it home and eat it, or feed it to her dog.’

      etc

      1. froodle*

        I feel like our evil sides may be related, as I thought about getting weetabix and yoghurt, mixing them up and eating it in complete silence while maintaining eye contact with her the whole time. You know the introduction for the first thistle man from Alice isn’t Dead? Like that but in an office environment.

    6. Lazy Susan*

      Interrupt her by saying “Sorry to interrupt Helen, but we are pretty busy working here, can you save the chat for the breakroom/lunchtime?”

      1. froodle*

        This is the adult and reasonable suggestion, which alas has been tried (not even my me, a cpwprker, but by a supervisor!) and prompted a passive aggressive tantrum fest that was so out of control and not appropriate that thinking about it is making me sweat with second hand embarrassment. If she was self aware enough to be ashamed of that reaction, she’d be self aware enough not to be a terrible judgebeast.

        1. valentine*

          Given her willingness to tantrum, you can’t respond in kind, but what if you defend them in a “we have company over and are possibly in a black-and-white (1950s?) film” way?

          Helen: Weetabix!
          You: Why, how clever!
          Helen: *spew*
          You: *grabs pen and paper, whispers “yogurt and Weetabix”, smiles* (Thanking her might really put her off.)

          Helen: Pigeon rescue!
          You: What a great first impression.
          Helen: Pigeon! Rescue!
          You: Why, she’s a credit to us all.

          Bonus if you can sip something as though she is visiting and not storming.

          If there’s a door, would ushering her out (walk directly toward her and motion out), as though you want to talk about it, but outside, work? Then do the script, but say, “Bye, now” and go into a random stairwell, take out your phone, and look at your last text. If she leaves and doesn’t go back to your office, super.

          Someone should report her next tantrum.

      2. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

        **straight face** “I don’t understand the problem. What’s wrong with eating a healthy breakfast/helping injured animals?”

  187. Names are Hard*

    I know this is late, but I’d like some advice on whether it’s worth it to speak up and how. A couple weeks ago my company asked women to take a picture for International Women’s Day. My first thought was is this just a photo op or are you reviewing salaries for gender gaps or improving the maternity leave policy?
    This week we were all told that we have to acknowledge and sign that we received the changes to the new employee handbook (they mentioned them in the email). As I scanned through to remind myself of other things I noticed that our maternity leave is only 3 paid weeks! Last I remember it was 6 weeks. I’ll probably double check to make sure I’m not remembering wrong. But it feels so icky to me that the company is “showcasing” the women on the outside but doesnt even give enough leave for women to just heal from giving birth much less bond, adjust, etc.
    Am I right to feel icky? And should I bring this up? My thought is to discuss with my manager (female) in our phone call next week and get her take. I dont plan on getting pregnant any time soon but a change would help others. We just went through a round of layoffs so I’m already anxious. At the same time though I’m already keeping an eye out for jobs and could move back home if something happened because I spoke up. That last sentence is probably the anxiety speaking.
    Do I bring this up or let it go? If I bring this up any advice on the best way? Thank you in advance!

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Am I right to feel icky?

      Yeah, they’re using you as props, but they may not be committing to respecting you as actual people. If they reduced maternity leave and didn’t announce it, that’s gonna be an unwelcome surprise to folks who only paid attention to it at hiring. I’d bring it up with your boss and find out what’s going on, maybe she can escalate it up the chain.

    2. A Non*

      I work for another company that touts itself feminist, positive, and inclusive, yet we have no paid maternity leave at all. So, I get you.

      In any case, I would maybe confirm that it was 6 weeks and then ask why it was changed to 3.

    3. Bluebell*

      I would definitely double check about the maternity leave. Is this the first time that the HR handbook has been sent out to the org? Or does this happen yearly? And I agree that feeling icky sounds appropriate.

  188. Beth*

    The hiring manager connected with me on LinkedIn the evening after the interview.

    Do I read anything into this, other than perhaps just that we work in the same field so maybe she thinks the connection may be useful?

    1. irene adler*

      I wouldn’t.
      It’s simply connecting with a colleague in the field, not an indication of whether you’ll score the job.

      1. Beth*

        Thanks.

        That’s what I thought but it’s been so long since I tried to get a job that last time I was in this position there wasn’t much by way of social media to deal with.

  189. Chocolate Teapot*

    Fishwife finally got her comeuppance this week!

    After one of her usual screaming fits at her co-worker (there are several she does this to) about why they hadn’t done something the way she wanted it, the co-worker screamed straight back at her that she kept interrupting and they wouldn’t be spoken to like that.

    Best of all, the star witness was the union rep!

    We so wanted to cheer in our team, but had to pretend we hadn’t noticed.

  190. Drew*

    Got approval from immediate “supervisor” (easily the most hands-off manager I’ve ever had) to take a week off this fall to attend a professional development conference on my own dime/time*. That means that I won’t feel even a bit guilty about using that time to network to try to find a place I can land on my feet when current job goes belly-up, which it inevitably will in the next year or two.

    * I didn’t even ASK if they would cover the trip and the conference. The answer would have been no and I would have taken shit for daring to ask. Not worth it. Getting the time off is victory enough.

  191. SS*

    RE: “If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue” – how long does it generally take for questions submitted by email to get answered? I can imagine things pile up and that would result in quite a delay, but I also don’t want to automatically assume my question will get a response and miss out on posting it as a comment.

    2. Colette*

      I think in the past Alison has said that after a couple of weeks, you can feel free to post it.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It can range from a few days to many months (with no rhyme or reason other than what I’m motivated to write on at any given time; i.e., it’s not first come, first served). You’re welcome to email me and I can tell you if it’s in my “to definitely answer” pile.

  192. L. S. Cooper*

    How do I make my non-quantifiable achievements at work sounds like achievements and not tasks?

    For example, one of the things I’ve done at current!job is optimize some excel sheets that get used for regular reporting, which I would word as “Optimized regularly-used Excel spreadsheets to improve efficiency and readability”, but I fear that that still sounds like just listing off a thing that I was required to do. (It’s also not something I’ve been required to do; this is something that involved taking the perogative to make my life easier– and to make life easier for whoever winds up with this job when I leave!)

    1. CAA*

      Redesigned Excel reports used by 12 managers to provide information at a glance, without requiring users to perform their own calculations or hunt for data, saving each user an average of one hour per month.

    2. LCL*

      Any time you change a process for the better, talk it up. Optimize is kind of a squishy word; I get what you mean re: excel but it appears vague.
      ‘Reviewed and revised Excel spreadsheets to simplify data input and ease of use.’

    3. Business Librarian*

      I’d also use ‘initiated’ in the description because you did this on your own not at the request of management.

  193. internal applicant question*

    I’m applying for a job with a different department (local gov) and don’t necessarily want my boss to know until it gets further in the process, though I know he would be supportive. If I get an interview, I would tell him after the interview.

    The application asks (with a yes/no checkbox) “Can we contact this employer without contacting you first” should I:
    a) check yes, assume they wouldn’t contact my current boss until after an interview
    b) check no, hope that doing so isn’t a big red flag that makes them assume my current boss would say bad things about me

    2. LQ*

      If it’s within the same government but a different department they may just tell your boss. I’d definitely check if you have a handbook or union contract it may be in there.
      We can interview within the same (Large D) Department without taking any time off work because they want to promote movement, but they’ll let your boss know. If you interview still at The State but in another Department (or Agency, or Board) you don’t have to tell your boss right away but you do have to use leave time.
      I’d definitely check on the rules around it.
      And then check no if there aren’t.

    3. government worker*

      This exact situation happened to me! I reached out to my HR and asked if what box I should check. She said to check “yes, you can contact my employer” but assured me it was 1) above-board (I was in my probationary period at the time) and 2) that they wouldn’t contact my supervisor unless I was likely to be offered the job. In the end, I didn’t get the position but it really nice to get the information from HR. Not sure what the particulars are of your exact situation, but I work for a city/county in California.

  194. Kisses*

    Is it work related if it’s money or govt related? I just don’t have any feedback from anyone I know. Has ANYONE gotten a tax refund yet if they have EIC or childcare tax credit? Our’s is still processing and I’m FREAKING OUT because we filed early. Has anyone got a date yet?

    1. Earthwalker*

      Didn’t the papers say that we (USA) should expect the IRS to be running behind because of the government shutdown in January?

    2. fposte*

      You can check the status online–have you done that?

      (I know some people who have gotten refunds already but no idea about EIC.)

      1. Kisses*

        Thanks for the replies- we were on track to get it th 14th on turbotax and found out that day about them being delayed. Then we were told the 28th. But as of right now, on the where is my refund site, it is still listed as processing. It said it was accepted Feb 6th, but as of right now, we have gotten no updates.

    5. Phx Acct, now with dragons*

      I got mine last week, filed through turbotax, probably filed mid-Feb.

  195. many bells down*

    Late to the game as usual because I volunteer Friday mornings but I have a question! So I’m looking for a job (my contract position is up and I do not want to renew) and I applied for an office position with a company that delivers preloaded gaming consoles to places like children’s hospitals. Now, my resume shows no experience whatsoever in the games industry; my experience alternates between front office staff and teaching positions. So they sent me a very polite email saying they were looking for someone with a different sent of experiences and best of luck.

    Here’s the thing, though. Almost ALL of my friends work in the games industry. I have industry contacts all over the globe in major studios. And apparently … I failed to attach my cover letter to the application (thanks, Indeed.) Do you think it’s worth resubmitting with the cover letter (and a note apologizing for leaving it off before), which lists how I actually have experience with the industry that’s not reflected in my actual work experience, or should I let it go? Kinda leaning toward “let it go” but I just wondered if other people thought it was worth a shot.

    1. H.C.*

      I’d let it go as well, your social circle is not the same as your professional network and it definitely doesn’t equal professional experience in the industry. That’s kind of like saying, “I have a lot of friends who are doctors, so I’m a good fit for this medical industry job too.”

      1. many bells down*

        I think it’s hard to explain how it’s relevant, but the games industry is kind of weird like that. For example, my name is in the credits of some independent games as a contributor or a playtester. It’s not a job that I’d put on my resume; I’ve never been paid for it (unless you count fancy beer) and it was done as a favor to a friend. But it demonstrates the “passion for games” that they had in the job posting in a way my resume simply doesn’t.

        I’m just kicking myself because the cover letter was really necessary for that position and it was dumb of me not to realize it wasn’t attached.

        1. elemenohp*

          For future applications, I think the testing could be listed under a volunteer experience section of your resume, or somehow mentioned in your cover letter. I think getting the credit elevates this from hobby to volunteering. But that may just be me.

  196. Aiguillette*

    Thanks to everyone who commented and gave perspective and advice a couple of weeks ago.

    Recap: We had been assigned a college student worker, “Meredith”, who didn’t want to sit next to a young man. She then stated that she didn’t feel comfortable working with men. Her major is similar to a respiratory therapist, so an area where she would expect to deal with men.

    Update: We had to have her reassigned. We had made sure that there was always at least one other woman working when she was here (not in her major, but a service open to everyone). She told one of the women supervisors that she didn’t mind working with Bob and Phil, because they were older. But, she didn’t want to work with Tom or Arthur because they were closer to her age.

    On a day when Tom was working a front facing position (they switch areas and are cross trained) he asked Meredith to cover while he went to the restroom. This should have been no problem. There were two women supervisors present and if there was a problem Meredith could have asked them to advice, intervention, etc. Meredith told Tom to never talk to her and she was going to call her boyfriend.

    She did. Meredith’s boyfriend came in and she pointed Tom out. Boyfriend went to Tom and told him under no circumstances was he ever to talk to Meredith again. Nothing work related. Not to say hello. Don’t look at her. The boyfriend then left. (This took about 3 minutes.) Tom was understandably bothered, but trying to maintain a calm demeanor. One of the women supervisors saw him and asked what happened. She called me and I talked to Tom.

    I also reviewed the video footage which supported the situation described. I reiterated to Tom that no one had the right to treat him that way and asked him to write up a statement. He tried to shrug it off, but I explained we needed documentation. I also contacted the work study office to loop them in prior to talking to Meredith. Meredith was immediately contacted and pulled from our office for a conversation by work study. I didn’t even have a chance to sit down with her.

    My biggest fear was that the boyfriend would come in. So far he hasn’t. I’ve instructed everyone that if he does they are to immediately call security. Our policy is that no one leaves alone and reminded everyone of this and to be safe.
    Needless to say there has been much speculation about abusive relationships. When I first spoke with work study office I mentioned this. If there is abuse we don’t have the staff or skills to deal with it. My perspective is that it’s not that simple.

    1. Nanc*

      Not to be trite, but Meredith–you in danger girl! Even if she is absolutely 100% fine with her boyfriend being this way it is absolutely unacceptable to treat co-workers this way.

      She’s going to have a tough time keeping a job.

      Also, good for you for having Tom report–everyone needs to advocate for good work relationships and as awful as this is, he’s bound to run into it again in his career and this way he has experienced the right way to handle it.

      Good luck with all this.

      1. valentine*

        It sounds like abuse, but that doesn’t mean her workplace needs to take it on for her.

        So was it just assumed Meredith’s reasons were religious? I’m surprised you didn’t ask about her motives and the extent of her needs before accommodating her in what turns out to be just plain gender and age discrimination (I know the law doesn’t protect the young). I wonder if she would’ve admitted she would have to report colleagues assumed to be both male and in a certain age range to her boyfriend for daring to speak to her.

        I don’t think Tom will run into this again (unless he works retail or restaurant) because it’s bizarre.

  197. Rez123*

    I’m in an international long distance relationship and we have already closed the distance once but then life happened and now we are back to LDR so I’m looking to relocate to him. Even without this I want a new job. But the job market is slow and there is a little thing called Brexit happening where my bf is so I’m not having much luck there either.

    Anyways, there was a position open in my department for similar role but a more pay and more responsibility. A work friend of mine has been doing the job thus far but is not permanent in the role. We both applied and I got the job. She was really upset since she has been handling it for 6 months and she really needed the extra money. On top of this my boss gave me an extra “personal addition” to my salary. We have specific paygrades and cannot negotiate or get other than standard of living raise. This addition can be applied rarely so it’s a big deal.

    Now I feel like total crap when I apply to other jobs. The reason why I applied for a higher position was because I was also doing the type of work and I was getting paid less than others since I had a different title and honestly I figured that my friend who did that specific position would get it. I know that applying for jobs can take a long time(I’ve already been doing it for months) but it feels a bit crappy still. Also I feel happy that someone is noticing the work I do. So this is a mixed happy and crappy post:)

    1. valentine*

      It’s best to proceed as though you’re not leaving, so you’ve done nothing wrong. It’s not as though you’re giving notice in a week or two. Even a month out, you never know.

  198. VM*

    Earlier this week, we found out one of our coworkers is getting laid off in 2 weeks. It’s just him and it was for a specific reason related to not having the right qualification. But the way it was announced struck me as petty and a lot of people liked the person, including me. We had a bit of a falling out a few months ago but I would like to reach out to him. Does anyone have some thoughts on what I should say to him? He’s technically still employed but he might just work from home until his last day.

    1. Jean (just Jean)*

      Can you send him an email saying something like, “I was sorry to hear that you’ll be leaving the company and wanted you to know that I wish you well in the future. I’m also sorry that we disagreed about [whatever it was].”
      If you are in a position to be a good reference, offer to do so and be specific. Example: “I would be glad to tell a future employer about your fantastic llama-wrangling skills and the time that you singlehandedly coordinated and staffed our booth at the Llama Drama Expo. If you are interested, please contact me at [email, phone #.]” He may or may not accept your offer but he will probably feel pleased or encouraged by a genuine compliment.

  199. Silver Radicand*

    Lesson #572 – Don’t push for an immediate answer on whether you are fired.

    I had to talk with an employee and ask about her no-call, no-showing yesterday. Since they are in her probationary period and has had some work quality issues, termination was on the board, but I wanted to talk with my assistant manager before I made that call, so I asked the employee to go ahead back to their work and let them know I’d get with them later. But instead, they asked, repeatedly for an immediate answer. After they asked four times whether they were fired (while still standing there), I had arrived at an answer. “Yes, you are fired.”
    They then spent the next 20 minutes trying to get me to change my mind until I nearly called security. They actually might have gotten me to just put them on suspension/probation if they had just acknowledged they headache caused by them not being there and listed what they had tried to do to get in contact.

    I don’t understand. What were they expecting me to say? *shaking my head*

    1. WellRed*

      Why didn’t you talk with your assistant mgr beforehand to make sure you were on the same page? The employee’s response was ridiculous, but I am guessing anxiety over the situation overrode common sense.

      1. LGC*

        I think Silver Radicand was about to go to talk to her assistant manager to get on the same page, and the employee freaked out. You’re probably right in that she ideally should have discussed this the day the employee NCNSed, but things fall through all the time.

        You’re definitely right in that the employee’s anxiety over-rode their (probably very low because they’re likely very new to the workforce) common sense, and without knowing what was said in the leadup to the employee’s meltdown, I definitely know that I’d be stressed out if I did something extremely wrong and knew that the consequences could be severe.

        1. valentine*

          It’s understandable if she wanted to leave on the spot rather than finish out her shift and anything other than yes/no could have come across as a power play and be understandably infuriating. Like just tell me so we can get on with our lives. It would never occur to me my manager was cutting me slack and delaying a decision, so the eventual no would cement my suspicion that it was always no.

      2. Silver Radicand*

        So we were both of the same opinion going into the initial conversation (termination unless there is a really good reason why the employee did not at east call-in), but I wanted a chance to reconvene after having actually asked my employee why they had no-call, no-showed. Sometimes life happens and I try not to go make the final decision without having talked to the employee to at least hear their side of what happened.
        I think you are right about the anxiety. And I think Valentine below may be right on how it came across. I just wish there was a better way for the situation to play out.

  200. Jaid*

    A couple of the ladies I ride the bus with are deaf. I’ve learned a couple of signs, which amuses them (hello, good morning/afternoon, I’m not cursing at you really!). On Monday, when there was that storm in Philly, very few people came in on the bus, but I and one of the ladies did.

    We managed to communicate and I found out that she was unable to access our emergency weather hotline, so she came to the bus on faith that work would be open. I reassured her that it was open for the idiots like us who decided not to roll over, go back to bed, and later call our managers to request unscheduled leave like the hotline said we could for Monday.

    So when my Great-Grandboss made her walkabout (Hi, how are you, working hard/hardly working?) on Wednesday, I thought to ask her if she could ask the dude who does the local hotline update what he does to ensure that the hearing impaired can access it.

    I’m sure there is a way and no one bothered to show my friend how to do that. Because otherwise it would mean my government agency should have some egg on its face. And normally, we’re very, very good at accommodating disabilities, in my experience.

    :-(

    1. Garland not Andrews*

      Excellent call bringing it to the attention of the powers that be. If it is an oversight and provision has not been made, then provision can be made. (My agency uses phone, text, & email according to how each individual sets it up.)
      If provision has been made and your coworker just needs updating in how to get the information, then she can get the help she needs to setup whatever means are needed.

      Either way, everyone wins. Coworker gets the information and agency covers all the bases.
      :-)

  201. What the What*

    Question about whether something is normal: I gave 8 weeks notice ar my present position. I really like my boss and didn’t want to leave her in a bind with my leaving. I thought this would have been plenty of time for them to get someone hired. I also volunteered to help train my replacement (provided the replacement was hired during that time). I just found out that HR is not advertising the position beyond posting it on the company website. This is not a large company with limited web traffic. We are also based ina very small town. I am trying to figure out why it’s not being advertised to a wider audience. My guess is that HR is too “thrifty” to spend the money on a job posting. I casually mentioned to my boss that the job is not advertised beyond the website and she was very surprised by this. Is it normal for smaller companies in small towns to seek applicants this way? It strikes me as very odd and shortsighted. On a related note, I am SO glad that I gave an end date when giving notice (primarily due to the great advice on AAM). If I’d said I’d hang around until they hired my replacement, I think I could’ve been stuck there for a looooong time or found it very awkward to later give a more concrete date.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      When I left a previous position, I gave three months notice because the department was already massively understaffed and having trouble getting qualified applicants. Turns out they didn’t even bother to post the job until the week before I left. I decided this fell under the heading of “you can lead a horse to water…”

  202. NetworkingQueen*

    Any advice for someone who was recently promoted to be her old manager’s manager? My former boss turned employee is about twenty years older than me and this is not a case where either of us have a more unique skill set. She’s taking the transition okay, but there’s a reason I was promoted above her, and it’s difficult to correct her mistakes without feeling worried how she’s going to handle it.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Congratulations on your promotion!

      When giving her feedback, just be straight forward and professional.

  203. Gloucesterina*

    I was reviewing AAM’s tips for a skype interview–can anyone enlighten me (haha) as to what a lamp with diffused lighting is?

    1. Havarti*

      Lampshade probably. Fabric or plastic cover that eliminates harsh shadows. Or maybe shine the lamp on a blank wall to bounce the light off it. You’ll need to test your set-up so you don’t look like you’re in a horror film.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Exactly. You want to avoid harsh shadows. So, two lamps and an overhead made more sense than one lamp in a dim room. One way to “diffuse light” is to tape wax paper over a lamp to reduce the shine.

      2. LilySparrow*

        You will also want to put the main light source in front of you and slightly to one side or the other, not dead-center or directly overhead.

        Straight-on lighting gives you bad-birthday-party-flash-photo-moonface.

  204. Evan Þ.*

    I’m feeling exhausted and burnt out in my job. Here at Very Big Software Company, my three-person team is expected to provide 24/7 support to high-urgency bugs in a highly-used subsystem. It would be fine if, like most of the company subsystems, it generally worked fine and we got maybe one urgent bug every four months… but due to several peculiarities, almost all bugs count as urgent using the standard rubric, and these last months we’ve had generally two urgent bugs a week.

    Until several weeks ago, each of us was on call 24/7/365 to leap onto every case. At my urging, we just started an on-call schedule several weeks ago; each of us is now on-call two weeks of every month. I’m about to go into my second week, and I’m dreading it.

    I’ve written new documentation and tooling improvements; it’s helped a bit. I’ve pushed management for some patches to reduce errors; the process is starting and they might come through in the summer. I’ve also pushed for hiring new people and opening another team to help us; I just heard from my boss that we’re getting one new person next month and that’s it.

    My boss highly values my work, but he doesn’t seem to realize how on-call makes you be constantly “on,” and when I last tried to talk with him he talked about the need to sacrifice for the company. Does anyone have any suggestions? I don’t want to leave now in the middle of these patching projects, and it’d be nice to stay till annual reviews in the summer. But, I don’t want to give up my life to provide 24/7 support till then.

    1. CatCat*

      Why would it be nice to stay until annual reviews? Is there potentially a bonus or something you could get? Just wondering why you couldn’t start putting out feelers now for opportunities where you wouldn’t be expected to be on-call.

      As for boss, boss seems pretty dismissive if his response is that you “need to sacrifice for the company.” Pretty tone deaf and avoidant. I’d just lay it out for him. “Being on-call for half the month is not sustainable for me long-term. Is this something the Company is going to address?” If he says yes, press for more details. “When will that be?”

      If he’s evasive or changes topics, just direct back to the point. “So does that mean the plan is to keep staff on-call?”

      If the plan is to keep staff on call, there’s your answer and you just have to decide how long you’re willing to put up with it before moving on.

      1. Evan Þ.*

        Yes, I’m pretty sure I’m in line for a bonus. I’m hoping to transfer within the company (benefits and location are great), but transferring before then would mean my new manager would write my review.

        I’ll try to talk with my boss next week (he’s busy today), but he’s a lot more confident than me we can get things fixed in the next six months or so. I’m not, and even if we can, I don’t want to stay with this current rotation another six months.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I think the only way for the boss to get it is for the boss to be part of the call rotation. Is he willing to do so to “sacrifice for the company?”

      Do you at least get paid for the extra hours you are putting in? Do you get on call pay?

      Can you tell him that this is the kind of schedule that makes good employees look for new jobs?

  205. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

    So, I’m trying to figure out what/if I can do to make the next few months go smoothly.

    Long story short, my company has undergone a fairly massive regime change in the past month and layoffs are fairly inevitable. My group will likely be fine, but things are tense and if I never hear the phrase, “We need to focus on costs” again in my life, it’ll be too soon.

    My boss, “Leslie”, isn’t new to the industry or company, but has been in her position for less than a year. A bunch of people jumped ship right after the person who held her position previously left, so my boss has basically had to build her team from scratch (I know this could potentially be a red flag, but based on other details that I really can’t share, I don’t think this in and of itself is indicative of anything negative). She hired me and several others — all of whom have limited or no industry experience (myself included) — and we get along fabulously. Everyone is a hard worker, we want to be around each other, we have similar senses of humor…It’s the best group dynamic I’ve worked in, hands down.

    Up until recently, Leslie has been very encouraging of us learning as we go, doing what we can while gathering resources, etc. We all have the technical ability and desire to learn; our industry is just an odd one and understanding it takes time. Up until recently, we’ve had very few hard deadlines and haven’t experienced a hint of stress or disappointment for more than maybe a day at time.

    However, since the regime changed, Leslie is clearly stressed and is (I think unknowingly) passing that stress onto us in weird ways. She’s gotten upset at one of us for missing a deadline on something that didn’t have one previously, and that require cooperation from other people in other departments who weren’t responsive, she’s said a lot of things like, “we need to deliver”, “we need to make sure we add value to the company”, etc. all while telling us that our department should be safe from layoffs, and we’ll be told things like, “people aren’t coming to you wondering where this report is; they’re coming to me”. Which…fine. Probably true. But going from having nearly zero deadlines to things being tense if we don’t deliver immediately has caused some emotional whiplash and my team is really feeling it.

    I honestly think that Leslie is just under some pressure and is passing that down, but it’s really wearing on the team. Our timelines are fear-based at this point. It’s hard to gauge what’s going to be a win and what won’t be. And, to top it all off, Leslie’s memory is getting worse. She either repeats herself…literally sometimes two or three times to the same person in a four hour period (these aren’t instructions that she’s repeating because someone forgot; these instances involve things like recounting meetings that she’s already discussed with someone). She misremembers what she or others say at times, but bringing up what actually happened is kind of pointless because it gets brushed off. It’s possibly the stress, but it’s becoming a bit of an issue.

    I’m just wondering what in the world my coworkers and I should do during this period? I think everything will calm down in a few months, but for now, everyone is feeling high-strung and scared. Is there a non-terrible way to tell your boss, “Bro, you are stressing everyone out and you need to RELAX”? Because her tension is seriously affecting everyone negatively.

    1. Let's Sidebar*

      That sounds like a big change and since you don’t have all the context to know what’s being required of Leslie it can be hard to not let her sudden skyrocketing stress get to you, but I think the best you can do is be proactive in clarifying expectations on deadlines and priorities in as much detail as possible- preferably in a recap email after a discussion so it’s in black and white. It will keep everyone on the same page and will help her keep things straight, especially while she is overwhelmed.
      I wouldn’t suggest discussing that you need her to seem more relaxed – you don’t really know if that’s an option here. It seems her department is under more pressure than in the past and she is not sugarcoating that!

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        Thanks for the response. The problem is that she IS sort of sugarcoating it (telling us to not worry but then is very OBVIOUSLY worried, which just makes it seem like we need to be on edge constantly). Or that she is holding off telling us that something is important until it’s needed really soon, and then putting unreasonable pressure on everyone.

        I definitely am trying to just keep my head down and get my stuff done, clarify deadlines, etc., but I’m just not sure how my teammates and I can keep from getting overly stressed ourselves. It’s been such a quick change, it’s disorienting.

        1. Darren*

          I suspect it’s a case of your department is safe from layoffs (you are in an area that adds value to the business and that they aren’t going to get rid of) but Leslie isn’t safe from being let go for poor performance (hence her rising stress levels).

          She has no doubt been told that her team needs to start demonstrating consistent delivery, no doubt with pointing at other teams who make their deadlines consistently, and get more done in a quarter. Potentially including areas which will be subject to layoffs.

          The most likely outcome here is in a few months the layoffs will happen, and the manager of one of those departments will replace Leslie (as their performance was better and the company doesn’t want to lose them).

          And the process of your work getting fairly strict deadlines (and performance implications for missing those) will continue. Leslie is no doubt trying to do that as that’s the feedback she has been given but it sounds like she isn’t used to managing with strict deadlines (particularly when it doesn’t matter if it slips a bit) and she is being told that she has to. This is why such a quick change, as she has likely been put on notice on this and is expected to turn this around in the next 6 months or less.

          Now if any of the layoff departments have people with transferable skills you might get a few more people for a bit (the high performers) and you then might actually get layoffs in your team (anyone they feel isn’t able to deliver consistently compared to their new high performers).

  206. Ace in the hole*

    I’m having a bit of a dilemma right now with writing my resume. I only have one serious-career-type job to list (my current one), which I have had for the past three years. I have a lot of work experience, but it’s mostly short term retail, food service, etc. type jobs. Should I leave them off and just deal with having the world’s shortest resume? Should I add them even though they’re not very “professional” type jobs? Help please!

    1. CatCat*

      I would include them. They give a more complete background of your total and varied work experience. I think looking like you just had the one job at one place isn’t going to be as helpful as showing you have held and can handle jobs in other settings.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would include them, depending on how long you were in them and if you can link them to the sorts of jobs you want. For example, if you were applying for customer facing roles, anything with customer service would be worth of inclusion.

      1. Effie, who gets to be herself*

        Seconding this. I included mine and it didn’t hold me back. There are lots of transferable skills from retail: multi-tasking, relationship-building, ability to stay calm under pressure, phone skills, and more. Good luck!

    3. Anonandon*

      Include them, and try to find / mention the skills that will be relevant to the new position. Literally anything is better than nothing at all. If you really can’t think of anything to make it relevant, just use bullet points, like:

      o McDonald’s Server, 2011-2012
      o Dog Walker, Independent, 2012-2013
      o Underwater Basket Weaver, 2013-2014

      1. Mazzy*

        I agree. Just down try to use flowery language. I see resumes like “assisted customers find the best fitting shoes in a quick and courteous manner.” Completely useless to write.

  207. StellaBella*

    Extra TL:DR: The Universe is watching over me.

    TL;DR: This week, I am grateful and hopeful and in awe of a small thing that happened that is helping me see that finally a situation and a person I was afraid of, seem to be clearing away. The universe is moving a blockage for me and I am so grateful.

    Long version: The thing is this… last year I moved back home after being out of the country for a while, and I was unsure that I wanted to come back for lots of reasons, but I did, and I recently have started a new job that I love and am super excited about. Great people, great location, easy commute, good pay.

    One of the reasons I was unsure about coming back was I went thru a very difficult boyfriend breakup before I left. It involved a bullying other woman who was close colleagues and friends with the then boyfriend; plus I was in a toxic work situation and had some severe health problems and hospital stays. All of these made me want to ‘be done’ and try something new. So I left.

    Now. I had been hunting for a job for a while (about 7 months). I accepted this offer after I met a lot of the team and felt like it was a good fit. Super amazing people. I’ve had a few informal chats with most team members about what they do, to try to learn about the org and what’s what in my job, etc.

    Today I chatted with one of the teammates who is leaving the team. We discussed their experiences in the org, and talked about some of their plans for the future. This teammate … is a close friend with the bullying woman who played a part in the drama of my bad breakup. Like, a really close friend who has vacationed with the bully….is a soon to be former colleague at my new job.

    This person mentioned the bullying woman, how she’s left our country for another opportunity, and this person mentioned some other interesting details after I suggested they look at jobs in a particular part of the local university I knew had openings. It dawned on me then that this person was likely fishing to see if I would acknowledge the connection or not. I did not.

    So what I am grateful for and amazed at is that this teammate is leaving this team just as I am starting. I knew that the bullying woman was gone from our country, and all in all it seems like the potential for any drama with the bullying woman at this point is basically nil. And I am so thankful.

  208. Koala dreams*

    Happy International Women’s Day everyone! In the spirit of today, what are your reading tips for feminism and the workplace? Books, blogs and podcast ideas are welcome. Somehow I end up reading a lot of articles about household chores in heterosexual romantic relationships despite not being in one, and very little on the broader issues of gender equality. I would like to expand my reading.

    1. Let's Sidebar*

      Not specific to the workplace, but “Men explain things to me” is excellent! I read it over a year ago but find myself looking up highlighted portions regularly- including today!

    2. anonymsaurus*

      Here are a few that I’ve read in the last year:

      proposals for the feminine economy
      How to Be Successful without Hurting Men’s Feelings: Non-threatening Leadership Strategies for Women
      How to Not Always Be Working: A Toolkit for Creativity and Radical Self-Care
      Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women’s Anger
      Too Fat, Too Slutty, Too Loud: The Rise and Reign of the Unruly Woman

  209. Not So NewReader*

    Maybe too late here but will ask anyway.

    People who work for NPOs or volunteer groups:

    What do you do to memorialize people’s service once they retire/pass away?

    Do you discern between paid employees and volunteers in how they are remembered?

    Does it matter if they are retired or if they are deceased?

    Do you memorialize everyone or just people with longer terms of service?

    I have seen groups put stone memorials out in the green space surrounding the building. It doesn’t take much to figure out this is not sustainable because of costs and space. Planting trees and shrubs also hits the same problem.

    I was thinking of one of those memorial boards where little brass name plates can be added. Does anyone have a better idea?

  210. Let's Sidebar*

    Hoping for some advice for managing a response that bothered me on my small team of 7. There are constant requests that we do more team building/”fun” things. I recently got approval to sponsor team attendance to an industry “gala/awards” of sorts. It’s a big event in our industry and a good opportunity to network with our peers and partners, but mostly just fancy fun. Two of the people on my team who have a reputation for being cliquish both declined to go – actually they never responded to the invite, but instead vocalized not wanting to go with one loudly complaining about the event being stupid, not having anything to wear, probably not being able to eat a lot of the menu because of dietary restrictions and so forth. Honestly, I’m irritated. I’m not interested in forced fun but it’s 100% predictable that if one isn’t going the other won’t either and I find it rude to put down the event instead of just politely declining or siting a vague conflict. I should note that relationship building is a key component of their jobs, not that they should go for that reason, but to clarify these are not introverts who dread this kind of event. I’m predicting my management side-eyeing that they are both declining “together” and that getting approval for future “fun” will be less likely if people aren’t participating. Should I say anything or just let it go?

    1. spaghetti and meatballs*

      There are constant requests that we do more team building/”fun” things.

      Who are these requests coming from, the team or external to the team?

    2. LGC*

      Woof.

      So, like so many situations, I think you might be overthinking it. I think a reasonable person (and, okay, myself as well) would see it as…you organized an event, and two people on your team turned down the invitation. (They consistently turn down invitations together.) One of them acted in a very unprofessional manner, openly slamming the professional event. That might reflect partly on you, but it reflects more on them.

      So, yeah, let it go. If they turn down events a lot, ask them what kinds of events they would be interested in. And if they’re just not into work events, it…kind of sounds like it’s not your problem.

      Also, pardon me if I’m reading between the lines, but I think that part of the reason you’re bothered by it is because this is an event you personally really want to go to (at least from the way you described it), and it’s a little bothersome that your employee/coworker is slamming something that you like. And…you know, it’s fine that they don’t like it (in the abstract). Not everyone is fine with getting dressed up and networking, especially if it isn’t an essential job function. It doesn’t mean you’ve failed, it just means that they don’t like the same thing that you like.

      1. Let’s Sidebar*

        You are certainly right about me overthinking it! :D I’m not super excited about going but it’s an easy “special thing” in our industry plus we’re featured as part of several nominated categories (to be clear, WE are not directly up for an award). I’m bummed they are not interested in going but I’m irritated that they publicly poo-poo’d the event because it’s not gracious and it sucks the fun out of it for others.

    3. Kathenus*

      My opinion is to let go the fact that they don’t want to go to this event. Those types of things aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, and if it’s meant to be fun and isn’t an activity that they enjoy then it’s not achieving that goal for these individuals. But, you can definitely coach them on expressing opinions and feedback in a professional and constructive manner.

      I think it’s great that you lobbied for and got resources for the team, and those that are excited about that gala probably are very thankful. Maybe you can ask people for ideas on what events/activities they are interested in, and give them parameters of what’s realistic (a certain budget, has to be related to work, or whatever), for use in the future. There are a lot of discussions on this blog about social activities related to work and how people can view the same activity very differently – some love it, some are neutral, some hate it. So it might be rotating through different types of things if people have very different interests, over time anyway. But feedback from your team might help to pin down the best use of the ‘fun’ budget going forward.

      1. Let’s Sidebar*

        Yes, you are right about feedback and I WISH we had a more structured budget for this sort of thing but, in reality, I get budget approval as things come up and that’s not likely to change. Personally, I would rather not plan social activities – if people want to get together after work for a happy hour, have at it! – but it seems to be a constant suggestion that we do more “fun” stuff.

    4. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      TBH I would feel the same way about an event like that. I too don’t have fancy clothes, so attending would mean shopping for an expensive ($150-200) dress I might never wear again. And dressing up in fancy clothes to network does NOT = fun to me. It’s more work.
      In my company, it’s common for the well paid executives to put together “fun” activities that just don’t work for those making less than 6 figures. Dinner cruises that cost $75 each (yes, that’s a discount, but still!), charity galas, golf, etc etc. Wine tasting tours that require an overnight stay (because they’re a 3 hour drive away and are from 6-11 pm – even if the wine tasting tour is free and on a bus, that three hour drive in the middle of the night…). And they wonder why people don’t get all excited to do that. Or come alone and don’t bring the husband and kids. (If I brought my kids on that dinner cruise…the cost of that one meal exceeds our monthly grocery budget.)
      You may just be wildly out of touch with what your team thinks is “fun”. Or what they can afford. This might be worth thinking about. Ask them what they want to do for fun!

      1. Let’s Sidebar*

        I hear you and I am totally cool with them declining the event, which by the way is fully paid for by the company and cocktail attire already in the closet is perfectly appropriate. I’m just not cool with publicly trash talking something others are/were looking forward to.

        1. Melisse*

          The assumption that people have “cocktail attire” already in their closet may be part of your problem. RwM said they don’t have fancy clothes, and your comment blithely ignores that. Maybe think about your assumptions and expectations, and how reasonable they really are?

    5. Anonandon*

      Don’t say anything. You have (presumably) five people who attend and two who do not. And if the bosses are observing, they will remember who did not want to participate. They are only hurting their own reputations.

  211. Anon4This*

    I have a very petty complaint that irritated me more than it should.

    I usually just ignore blind outside recruiter contacts, but I had one this week that I had to respond to so they they stopped sending me jobs I’d never apply for. The recruiter’s introductory email, which went on for an entire paragraph bragging about how successful she was at placing people and listing her annual ranking within her company every year. In the span of a couple hours, four jobs that were looking for entry-level or one to three years of experience… except I haven’t done those jobs in nearly 20 years and have been managing people that do those jobs for nearly a decade. Even the best of the jobs they sent paid 35% of my current salary. This person obviously had not ready my profile and kept spamming me with jobs well below my current level described in the most absurd language like it was an AMAZING! OPPORTUNITY!!! I finally messaged her back to say I wasn’t interested, and still got another one.

    The kicker is that this is a company that has been trying desperately to get our business. They hire in our space and contact me and other hiring managers regularly to pitch candidates (never for a job we have open, just a list of candidates and qualifications). I mean, if this is how they recruit, I don’t have a lot of confidence that they’d send us candidates that matched our descriptions or are screening much on their end. I have a friend on the in-house recruiting team, and I shared this with him – and he immediately responded, “THAT’S exactly why we don’t use them!”

    1. Mazzy*

      haha I love it. I used to have a recruiter who got me into a company and then tried to get me to let him into the campus-style office at the company I was placed at, so he could walk around and schmooze executives, which was obviously a big no-no. I kind of pawned him off on an older temp who could be more assertive and quit after a few months anyway

  212. Katherine*

    My new boss has been at my company for a month and a day and already he has (1) given me a verbal warning (that was during his 2nd full week with us) and (2) given my coworker an official write-up (just today). I wouldn’t say the warning/write-up are bogus exactly, but my new boss is certainly a more hardline manager than my previous supervisor, who would never have written either of us up for the same issues. How do I adjust to this? How can I get over my resentment at my new manager and have a good working relationship with him?

    1. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      Can you talk to him in a 1:1 soon? Tell him that he’s tougher than you’re used to and ask him to lay out his expectations so you’re both on the same page? He may think that his new expectations are common sense and it would suck for him to get the impression that you’re a slacker when you just are not psychic.

      Good luck!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Tell him you are interested in preventing write-ups and future missteps, can he review his expectations so that you can get right on the first try.

  213. VanessaVanGogh*

    Woefully late but hopefully I can slide in.

    I am a little over four months away from my one year anniversary at my new position. I had been planning on asking for a raise at the one year mark because I undershot myself during negotiations. I know I am bringing a lot of value to the organization, and that I am paid below most people at my level in the organization. I plan on asking for approximately a 9% increase to bring me up to speed. My manager reached out to ask to schedule a professional development check-in, and I think it’s to ensure that I am satisfied with my growth.

    Would it be a wise choice to reveal to my manager that I plan on asking for a raise, and what I could be doing proactively (beyond producing stellar work, exceeding at my tasks, taking initiative and so forth)?

    1. ..Kat..*

      I think you should wait until your one year mark and then have a one-to-one with your manager on the value you are giving your company (have good examples!). Then ask for a raise.

      At this 8 month check in, ask about what you are doing well, what your boss would like you to improve on (and how). To me, talking about how you are going to ask for a raise later seems to be jumping the gun.

      Good luck.

  214. Right place this time*

    How do you keep yourself from being resentful when a coworker gets a cool project? I wish I could be graceful and supportive at all times, but sometimes jealousy is my default emotion in these cases.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Advocate for yourself. Tell the boss that you would like a turn at Cool Project or one similar. Ask if that is possible.
      If he says, “No, you don’t do X and this calls for people who do X.” Then tell him that you are interested in getting yourself up to speed on X and would he help you develop a plan to do so. Don’t be afraid to let your sincerity show. What ever he comes up with for a reason, decide that you will find a way to work through that reason with him.

      Jealousy. Try not to beat yourself up too much. I think jealousy serves a purpose, it reminds us that we could do better and have better. Use the jealousy to help move you along to where you want to be. In some cases, those feelings of jealousy can be a daily reminder to take steps each day to get to a better spot. See, jealousy can come with a sense of helplessness and when we make an action plan, follow the action plan then we tend to lessen those feelings of helplessness and in turn feelings of jealousy.

      Remind yourself that your problem is NOT with the coworker. Your problem is actually with the boss who gives out assignments. Getting upset/frazzled with the coworker is misplaced energy. What is really needed here is for you to find a way to persuade the boss that you can do Cool Projects, also.

  215. bad at speaking up*

    My workplace coach pulled me aside this week and told me that she’d noticed that I talk a lot less in group training sessions with the rest of my cohort, opposed to sessions with her and her other mentee. The dynamic is that when it’s my turn to speak, one of the guys in the program will cut in, and then voice their thoughts, and I just sink back into my chair and let it happen. This obviously isn’t great in general… but being assertive and able to control a conversation is a job skill I will need by the end of this program, and I have never had any kind of training in that!!

    I need resources. I read AAM, and Captain Awkward, and will be going through the archives this weekend and writing down some lines to keep in my back pocket. I’d like some things to watch or listen to or read through, to. A lot of articles I’ve looked at have talked about “being sure of your own worth” and “feeling confident that your words have value” but like… That’s not the problem. I need to be able to cut a dude off when he’s on a tangent after cutting me off without a) looking or sounding like I’m dis-proportionally upset or aggressive, and/or b) crying. Any recommendations?

    1. BRR*

      Something like “Hold on Id like to finish” and you have to be a little forceful and keep going.

    2. spaghetti and meatballs*

      Since this is a group training session, is there a trainer you could take to the side and say “I keep being interrupted when it’s my turn to speak, and that’s negatively impacting what I’m getting out of the training. Can I rely on you to moderate firmly when this happens?” And if you notice this happening to other people in your group, say that it’s not just you who is experiencing this behavior, and that the trainer should be shutting it down to create a better learning environment for everyone.

      1. Bad at speaking up*

        No! His ability to take control of a conversation is a strength. My habit of shutting up when I’m interrupted is something I need to fix in order to succeed in this role (and on my personal life, tbh).

        1. lychie*

          Does he do it to other women? Or other people? if so how do they handle it. If not, why does he interrupt you alone?

          Just some thoughts.

        2. spaghetti and meatballs*

          I don’t understand. Is this scenario-based training where you’re supposed to be fighting for dominance of a conversation in prepared scene in a training course? If so, the trainer should be providing you with tips and tricks for the scenario, not making you feel like this is your fault for not already knowing how to do this.

          1. Bad at speaking up*

            Nope. It’s policy training, with a mix of group activities and guided discussions. A trend has been observed, and I’ve been told to work on my side of the problem – I can’t just shut up and give people the floor when they interrupt me. This was flagged for the first time, I was told to work at it, and coach will see how it goes (whether I need role play training, whether other coaches need to be flagged about some trainees dominating sessions).

            Which is why I’m ASKING FOR RESOURCES. I need stuff in my pocket for the coming week. Then we have another chat about it, and we go from there.

    3. Reba*

      I think practicing with a friend role playing as the Interrupter will help you be able to say what you need to say without the emotional reaction. Or even practicing alone, just get the words out until they feel normal. You can also try raising a hand, like signaling pause, not student with a question–that might be easier than talking over the Interrupter. It can be simple: “Hey, just a second.” “Bobbins, I wasn’t finished.” “Hang on, let me get through my thought first!”

      Is the trainer who said this to you the person facilitating these discussions? Her point about being assertive is good, but still managing the conversation and stepping in to let people speak is a common facilitation tactic, and I wish she would use it! That is, the leader (and other bystanders) also have a role to play in making sure everyone can participate. In an ideal world, i guess.

      The techniques described here https://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2017/06/12/what-i-learned-about-interruption-from-talk-radio/ are pretty hardball, but I like the idea of repeating the person’s name.

      This isn’t exactly what you’re asking for, either, but I found it interesting! http://fortune.com/2017/04/06/ruth-bader-ginsburg-supreme-court-advice-interrupting/
      Maybe it will help to know that even the top judges in the land have to deal with it, and how they have adapted by removing softening or conventional-politeness phrases.

      Good luck!

      1. Bad at speaking up*

        Thanks for the links – the radio talk one is great! I’m going to send it on to my trainer so she’ll understand if I start cackling with laughter next time I get interrupted.

        This trainer is really good at making sure everyone gets to make their case in sessions… But this dude interrupting me ISN’T the workplace problem. I’m training to be in a position where I’ll have to regularly defend the decisions I make, and I’m the one who will need to keep the conversations on track. By interrupting me and making his opinion the dominant one in the conversation (for this specific work context!!), this dude is showing the kinds of skills I need to get. Which I’m sure will be an exhausting learning process :/

        1. Not So NewReader*

          We can’t learn CPR when we have a passed out person in front of us. We have to have CPR training before the crisis in order to use CPR.

          I think this is a great example about preparation, because it’s so extreme that it’s clear: “yeah, ya gotta prep”.

          Situations like yours are not so clear, we are less apt to think of prepping for these less dire recurring situations.

          I think that you could get a collection of sentences you can use to stand up for yourself. Prep!

          You can prep a range of responses, from mild to firm.

          “Bob, excuse me, I have the floor now.”
          “Bob, I will be done in a minute then you can add your thoughts.”
          “Bob, I am not finished.”

          “Bob, you are interrupting me again.”
          “Bob, I was not finished, I am not sure why you think I was finished.”

          Prep several sentences. Use mine here as a spring board to get your own wording that you feel more comfortable with.

          Practice your sentences in front of the mirror, on your way to work, or while fixing dinner. Get used to hearing your own voice say things like this.

          FWIW, congratulations on committing to fixing this problem. You have already solved 50% of your problem by the commitment you show here. You will get this.

          1. Bad at speaking up*

            THANK YOU. I took a screenshot of your comment. I’m gonna put on my blazer, power pose in front of a mirror, and work through them in a variety of voices. I’m aiming to bust at least one out per session for the first week, and see how I fare

  216. Notice period at end of contract*

    I’m a non-teaching, research-only academic (not in the US) working at a major university. I am currently employed on a 12 month contract that will end mid-year. (Note that contracts are very common here; no one at universities is employed without them). Also, as is common for academic staff, my contract states that I must give 6 months notice. (This is primarily so that lecturers don’t leave in the middle of a semester, but it applies to non-teaching academics too.) I am currently job seeking and plan/hope to leave when my contract is up at the end of June, but I haven’t given notice as yet as I want to have another job lined up first. I figure I can’t be asked to work without a contract, and they can’t force me to sign one. But when I asked my HR person about giving notice, she said that 6 months’ notice is required. When I brought up the fact that I won’t have a contract post June, she just repeated that I must give 6 months’ notice unless my head allows me to give a shorter notice period. I’m not terribly worried because my head is a reasonable person, but I’m somewhat puzzled that HR is being so obtuse. Has anyone else experienced this? I’m not sure what they think will happen, that I’ll somehow continue to work without a contract or that they can force me to sign one? I know it’s not ideal to only give 3 month’s notice but neither is it ideal to employ academics on short contracts.

    1. Namey McNameface*

      I’m puzzled about this too. When employers say “x weeks/months notice is required”, there’s actually little they can do if the employee does not honour this. Slavery is illegal last I checked, and no one can compel you to work if you decide not to.

      Check your contract to see what happens if you don’t give the required notice. I know some companies will deduct from final pay the amount of notice not given. But if you don’t actually have a contract post June, you don’t have any agreement or obligation with them to give any kind of notice?

    2. Anon for this*

      I had a friend who used to work at the same university I did; we were teaching faculty who received annual contracts (there was no tenure system, and they were fairly notorious for not telling people in advance whether they would receive another contract or not). She was actively job-hunting but didn’t have anything lined up when her contract was renewed, so she signed it. Two months later, she found out that she had received a job she really wanted, and she simply told the administration that she had taken another position. They weren’t pleased since they had to find someone else on short notice, but nothing ever happened to her. So, basically, I would take the HR person’s obtuseness as a sign of, “This is what they would prefer happen in all cases,” ignore it, and do what you need to.

    3. Not A Manager*

      It seems to me that the six month notice period would be if you were planning to leave prior to the end of your contract. You work the contract out to the end OR you give six months notice. So basically if you decide to leave sometime within your FIRST six months, you’d need to work for six more months of notice period.

      Otherwise, you’re being asked to work some number of months past your contract period, without having a new contract. That means that at Day 364 of your current contract, your employer could count on you to work for them for six more months, but you couldn’t count on having a job at all after tomorrow.

      I think you should assume that at the end of your current contract, you’re free to leave – unless you’ve signed a new contract in the meantime.

    4. Weegie*

      HR is not being completely obtuse: I’ve been on several university fixed-term contracts, and have always been required to send an email within the relevant notice period to HR along the lines of ‘I confirm I will be leaving my post when the contract ends on X date’.

      What seems to have gone wrong here is that your head/HR haven’t contacted you at the right time to prompt you to do this. (Are you /they perhaps expecting to renew the contract?). Also, these matters usually go through your line manager first rather than directly through HR.

      Practices may differ where you are, but talk to your head, who (according to HR) can vary your notice period. Then all you need to do is send HR an email /letter stating, ‘in agreement with my manager, I am giving you X months’ notice that I will be leaving my post on Y date.’

    5. Notice period at end of contract*

      Thanks all for your input! HR usually don’t contact you about renewing your contact until a few months before it ends (or sometimes much less), but I guess they may have been operating under the assumption that I’d sign a new one, even though there’s been no discussion of it. It’s not a great system for anyone though as people tend to assume their contacts will be renewed, but sometimes it doesn’t happen – one of my colleagues heard in November that there wasn’t the funding to renew her contact full time and as of January, she now works 2 days/week. It doesn’t seem fair that we are supposed to give 6 months but don’t get that in return. But anyway, the system is what it is. I particularly appreciate Weegie’s wording and will adapt it when the time comes (hopefully soon!)

      1. Darren*

        Until they contact you to renew the contract you are not in any way obligated to stay beyond the end of the contract term. If they want 6 months notice at all times they need to sign the new contract 6 months out from the end date.

        Simply refusing to renew the contract when they offer it to you and working out the remaining part of it is sufficient notice ethically and legally.

  217. Namey McNameface*

    Hiring managers – what subtle red flags have you ignored during recruitment that came back to bite you?

    I had missed a couple of calls from a job applicant before picking up the phone the next day. When I answered the call the applicant said, with a hint of irritation (and in what I thought was an unnecessarily accusatory tone), “I rang you earlier but you didn’t answer.” Although it rubbed me the wrong way he was perfectly courteous the rest of the conversation. He went onto interview strongly and we hired him.

    He turned out to be an awful hire. I am a Millennial and don’t agree with the bad rep we get, but he actually embodied the worst combination of all the negative Millennial stereotypes. He complained the job wasn’t “inspiring” him to be his best. We had explained the job required a lot of customer service via telephone – he complained about having to talk on the phone and he complained it wasn’t “customer servicey” enough. Then one week into the job he said he didn’t feel like working and sat down in the corner during the busiest time of day. Although he said he was quitting, he actually didn’t go home but started watching Youtube videos until I asked him to leave.

    Looking back, the impatient bite he exhibited first thing in our phone conversation was a hint of his sense of entitlement/irritable personality. When I think back to other hiring decisions I can usually pinpoint to some subtle red flag I ignored and later regretted.

    Anybody else?

    1. Mazzy*

      I haven’t hired enough people to have loads of stories, but in retrospect, I did hire someone who ended up quitting without notice over something that was completely normal for our industry and which they never discussed with us as an issue. In the interview, they did seem almost too serious and lacked humor and seemed to be down, and I thought they were like that because they were depressed from being unemployed. I started out my career being too nice and giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, and in retrospect, I see that I should have grilled this person more in the original interview, or hired someone who bought more positive comments and questions and energy to the interview.

    2. Delta Delta*

      I was once on a hiring panel when I worked at Teapots United. We received a cover letter from an applicant that started, “Greetings, Friends At Teapots United!” I was very put off. Everyone else found the application fun and quirky. Applicant was called for an interview and said he’d make up an excuse to come in that day for an interview. I thought that seemed odd; others found it “motivated.” Applicant showed up and his behavior could best be described as ebuillent. Or possibly “cocaine-induced.” He got hired. Within 3 days he got fired. Many many many flags ignored.

  218. Retail*

    I have an ignorant question about salaried work – how does PTO work if you’re supposed to get paid the same as long as you work in a week? I understand vacation, but not sick/personal days.

    I also understand there would be a difference based on the type of job – someone who needs to be there these hours and these days like a teacher needs those days, but what about managers or … other types of jobs that are salaried?

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      Where I work, I have to use a PTO day if I work less than half a day. So, if I work for 3 hours, that’s a PTO day; if I work for 4.5 hours and then have to go to a parent/teacher conference, I do not have to use any PTO for it. My prior job required me to use PTO hours if I didn’t work the full day. How your company uses it should be laid out in your HR policy book.

    2. Darren*

      Paid time off works just fine, the question you seem to be asking is “Why do I even have to use PTO if I have to be paid the same $X a week whether I work 1 day or 5 days” and the answer is because if you don’t show up as often as expected they are entitled to fire you.

      Now if you are asking how unpaid sick days work that’s all answered https://www.flsa.com/coverage.html
      ‘However, employers may “dock” the base pay of salary basis employees in full day increments, for disciplinary suspensions, or for personal leave, or for sickness under a bona fide sick leave plan (as for example if the employee has run out of accrued sick leave). ‘

    3. WellRed*

      Not sure I understand what you ate asking but, I am salaried. If I take a sick day, it gets counted against my sick time balance. If I ran out of sick and vacay time and needed a sick day…I assume it would be unpaid but frankly, I never have needed to find out. I don’t know that there’s a difference for say teachers.

  219. LisT*

    I am wondering how to explain being terminated from a job I held for 2 years when I am applying for new work. It was a termination not a layoff, but it was not aboveboard. The company avoided having to pay out ~10k in benefits. At will employment state, attorney said i would have to file a lawsuit to get anywhere. I did collect unemployment and have subsequently found a new job. However some contract work I’m interviewing for would probably want to speak with the old job because it’s directly relevant, while my new job is not. How do I explain the situation without coming across as bitter or shady?

  220. CM*

    Got a email from an internal recruiter for a job at a company I’ve always been intrigued by. I’m in a niche area and the job sounds right up my alley. However, I have no intention of leaving my current job and I’m very busy. So I’m pondering whether I should say yes to an interview just to walk in the door and look around and get a chance to ask questions about what this company is like, mostly out of curiosity — and maybe because whenever I’m ready to move on, it would be good to have a connection there — or say no because it’s very unlikely I’d actually take the job and I really shouldn’t be saying yes to anything non-mandatory right now. Thoughts?

  221. Anon Anon Anon*

    Yesterday, I started work again after being unemployed for a while. I’m still job hunting. This is just something to tide me over. It’s good to be working and earning income again!

    I benefitted from having some time off, though. I reflected and reorganized my priorities in life. I feel more level-headed now.

    My job search is weird. For the past few years, I’ve been applying for jobs that I want and am qualified for – directions that I want to go in. I haven’t gotten an interview for any of them. However, people have been asking for my resume unexpectedly in other contexts. Sometimes it’s for something I might be interested in. Other times, not so much. But I’m taking it as a good sign. I need to talk to more people in the field(s) I’m actively searching in. Then maybe I’ll get asked to apply for something that I am interested in!

    I’m working on dressing in a way that more accurately conveys who I am. I’m hoping that will help me to feel less, “Argh! They have the wrong impression of me!” I realize I need to do more to meet people half way. It’s working.

    So, mostly good news here. I also have some volunteer work lined up for later on. Progress in the right direction!

    1. WellRed*

      If you are getting asked for your resume in person, but not getting interviews at places you apply, I’d take another look at the resume, but revel in the idea that in person, you are awesome.

  222. dee 20*

    For the past year, I’ve been speaking with my supervisor about transitioning to a new role. It would be a lateral move rather than a promotion, but it involves learning a set of skills that are both much more highly valued in my industry and required for higher paying roles in my department. We have a pretty small team, and some of my work is fairly specialized within it, so I kept accepting the excuse that it wasn’t a good time yet but would happen soon. A few months ago, she pulled the person I had just finished training (and my only replacement at the time) instead. We had what I thought was a productive conversation about why this was disappointing for me, what my goals were, and where I should set my expectations. She assurred me it would happen, and I tried to move on. I also spoke with her (and my) boss, to make sure he was on the same page. When I asked if there was anything I could do to improve my chances, he had nothing but good things to say about my work.

    In the last two weeks, I have been passed over three more times for this kind of work. I’m gutted. I tried speaking to our manager again, but he had no answers for me – just that my supervisor continues to be very happy with my work, and he had no suggestions for ways I can improve. At this point I’d move on and look elsewhere, but we’re the big fish in this field where I live, and other opportunities are hard to come by. I just bought a house, so moving is off the table.

    Needless to say, this has been a huge hit to my morale – it feels like I’m doing something wrong, and no one will tell me. My work is suffering, and I’m starting to dread going in. I used to love this job. How do I try to move forward?

    1. RachelleR*

      From what you say your managers are telling you about your performance, this sounds like a case of being too valuable in your current position to lose. This has happened to me two jobs ago and remembering this is a management issue and not a comment on how good I am as an employee helped me get through the day.

      If you have to stay with your current employer then perhaps showing them that your department won’t be gutted if you move on to other positions would help. Have a written training document and make sure everyone who might have to be in your position during vacations is doing the work comfortably and well. During your employee review, if you haven’t have one already this year, bring documentation that shows you are doing work they like. Complementary emails, written dates and times of meetings you have where they compliment your performance. Best of luck.

      1. dee 20*

        Honestly, that’s what I’ve suspected – my supervisor was really reluctant to let me train someone in some of my duties at all, and my last trainee was immediately taken away once she was fully competent. I did try to bring up that I was worried I’d pigeonholed myself during one of our meetings, but I only got a vague answer about timing.

        That said, it really does help to have some concrete steps I can try to take on my own in the meantime. Employee reviews tend to get buried under our heavy workload, but I recently applied for a position on a differently focused team that would be under the same manager. I’ve been trying not to get my hopes up for that reason, but having some direction for things to bring forward makes me feel a little better about my chances. Thanks for the ideas, and I’ll do my best to keep reminding myself the problem isn’t just with me.

  223. Neverending*

    I have discovered an error made by someone in another team. I have been recently cross skilling to do more work from this team but due to how things operate in this department these days (my team and the other team fall under the same department – just different teams covering different functions in a bigger picture) I keep a record of some of the items I touch so I can look back at them (in my own time on breaks and before work) in order to hopefully learn.

    However, in doing this I have discovered a mistake done by someone in the other team. I had followed a particular process for approval for something, the response came back but not only did the person who picked up the response not actually follow the response they then actually sent a completely incorrect response out to the enquiry. So not only did they not avoid what I thought important to avoid (and I guess the person who responded to my approval request agreed) but then they actually went and sent out wrong information in one instance.

    The error is well and truly done but we could always send out another correct response and apologise for the previous one. I have no idea if they would send another one out though or if they would just wait for a complaint or hope the person would solve their own confusion.

    My employment background makes me quite customer focused so I would hope they would take this down the best possible path but I would not be surprised if they took the wait and see route unfortunately.

    I have been at the company for less than a year and while this cross skilling was a positive reflection on me from the leadership team, the year has been a bit of a roller coaster. My team leader has been incredibly supportive of me and this other team leader has been historically too but it appears I have made a mistake recently and he has really turned against me. No one knows I have a look at some of my work after the fact (my Tl would probably like the initiative and desire to actually learn, the other tl would probably have liked it historically but at this moment I am really not comfortable about him) so no-one will ever know I saw this persons error, however, from a customer service stand point keeping my mouth shut makes me incredibly uncomfortable. This piece of work takes ages to finalise and adding the fact we are dealing with international mail in this situation it only makes the process longer.

    So the question is do I keep my mouth shut to avoid rustling any feathers or do I mention it to one of the team leaders in case they would actually prefer to send a correct response out? I am not concerned about them knowing I look back on some of my own work but I am concerned about pointing out an error by someone in the other team. My team leader may like it, it may support her opinion and prove a current debate between the two of them, but I really have somehow got myself in the bad books with this other person and I have no idea how he will react. The question I initially raised may remind him what he liked about me in the first place but he turned so drastically on me, that I honestly cannot even imagine what mistake I made to result in the turn. My team leader and I have recently had a conversation about how she wants me to trust her enough to address things with her, but this all still feels a bit like over stepping the mark.

    So to tell or not to tell is the question? Then the question becomes if I do tell who do I tell? I am not sure my tl would appreciate me not going to her especially after the whole trust to raise issues conversation but I am not sure the other tl would appsreciate me going to my tl about an error by someone in his team. I really feel like I am getting pulled in a million ways at the moment and whatever decision I make I loose, so I would appreciate some thoughts on what others would do in this situation.

    1. Anonandon*

      You are definitely over-thinking this.

      You found an error. Go to your direct supervisor and say, “I think I found an error because X, Y, and Z.” Then it is the supervisor’s job to decide whether it is a big deal and who should actually fix it.

  224. user679*

    “Oh! Kill two birds with one stone. It’s a saying. It means I’ll do one thing and it will solve two problems.”

    Actually, it’s strange he didn’t get that. There’s a similar saying in Poland – about baking two meals on the same fire.

  225. Batgirl*

    So my colleague wants to buy our boss a vibrator. Yeah.
    A few weeks ago boss was a bit upset about a break up. As we are quite an informal team, and we took her to the pub for a few drinks.
    I was in the ladies when the conversation started, but one of my female co-workers, who has a very big, jokey personality, was encouraging her to check out vibrators if she didn’t want to date right now.
    It was kinda laughed off as a joke but boss made it clear it wasn’t her deal at all and that she’s more about romantic connection.
    Now co-worker wants to buy our boss a vibrator for her upcoming birthday. When she raised it, I shut it down and said: “You can’t buy your boss that. I will not be going near that with a ten foot pole” We only have a few men on our team, who were there and who basically said how would they fit in with a gift like this, but they were very jokey and said “do we sign it; ‘think of us’!? ”
    Colleague is undeterred and has a few people in her circle who also think this is a great idea.
    However another of my co-workers confided in me that she was freaked out that she’d been asked to chip in ‘I haven’t had a chance to pull her up privately’ and when a third co-worker overheard she said “thank God. I am not contributing to that; let’s do our own thing”.
    I asked them if she’d been joking (I still can’t quite believe she means to go through with it) and they said she specifically said she “wanted to help boss because she’s never had an orgasm”
    Boss never said anything of the sort, quite the opposite in fact. She simply said she doesn’t like vibrators.
    My partner thinks I should tip off the boss?

    1. Asenath*

      I don’t know what you’d get by tipping off your boss except an embarrassing conversation with her, and then possibly, one that she will have with the co-worker. If you can’t persuade your co-worker(s) that this is a very bad idea, I think all you can do is refuse to contribute and keep out of it – unless your co-workers who agree with you want to speak with her directly. If enough do speak up and refuse to contribute, maybe the colleague will change her mind.

    2. Margaret*

      Could you say something first along the lines of ‘you know there’s a good chance a person might interpret that as sexual harassment.’ If not to the coworker then maybe some of the other giftees?

      Because it’s true- in at least one case, I can assure you that I personally would be on my way to HR so fast I’d make roadrunner noises.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d be tempted to think that giving your boss an anonymous note might be a kindness. “Hey, boss, I want to give you a heads-up that there’s a rumor that [co-worker] is planning to buy you a vibrator, as they joked at the pub the other day.”

      This is veering into sexual harassment territory and if you have an HR I’d bring it up with them. Yuck.

    4. alex b*

      oh dear god. What a really weird and inappropriate idea in this context. Tipping off the boss– I’d not do. But I’d put it in an email to the ringleader(s) that you’re opposed and not contributing. It sounds like a “hey, remember those people who got fired bc they bought the boss a sex toy” situation, and I’d document my un-involvement. Ugh.

    5. Anonandon*

      I think you need a come-to-Jesus meeting.

      This can and probably will be interpreted as sexual harassment. There are legal consequences for this, both for the perpetrators and the company as a whole. Your co-workers could be fired for this. Your employer could be sued, if this is part of an ongoing problem or pattern. And because you knew about it, you could be ordered to testify against your co-workers.

      You need to sit down with all of your co-workers, and HR (if you have one) and explain (using very simple words) what the law says about sexual harassment. This is not a two-way discussion. This is you telling them that they are about to fuck up. And if they don’t believe you, report it to the boss.

      Even if they get away with it this time (eg your boss thinks it is funny or she is humiliated but says nothing) then you are perpetuating a culture of sexually inappropriate behavior. And eventually they’ll try it on someone who does NOT think it is funny and it WILL bite you all in the ass.

      1. Batgirl*

        I agree! Unfortunately it’s not possible. I am already planning on leaving because of gaping holes in management and coaching. Boss (who is great) is planning on leaving too because she has too many reports to give feedback to. Leaning on a HR structure would be great but it simply doesn’t exist.

    6. Anonandon*

      I tried replying to this but I didn’t see it pop up… Sorry if this is a double-post.

      Anyway: This is sexual harassment and it is illegal. Your co-workers could fired. The employer could be sued. You could be named as a witness in a lawsuit. You need to shut this down. If they don’t understand this concept, you need to report it. At the very least, by reporting it you make it clear that you are not involved with it.

    7. Batgirl*

      The person in question is doing a great job with a very tricky assignment and I think my boss would be loathe to lose her.
      While I personally think this is veering into sexual harrassment, this isn’t a workplace where that kind of language would be understood; particularly not by this person who comes from a small family business background.
      There’s no HR and it’s not a very modern or professional workplace. There’s kindness and good humour – but good intentions aren’t magic.

      I’ve already told her it’s completely unacceptable on two occaisions and she just said she’ll just get one that’s also a massager too!
      She is deaf to reason. If I brought legality into the situation it would be pooh-poohed, and I don’t want to make a bigger deal than my manager potentially would (for all I know she might just laugh).
      I also don’t think it’s my place to manage or coach coworker. I’m a peer and she’s already decided not to listen to me. The only person who can manage this is manager; or possibly more co-workers will oppose this and add weight.

      1. M*

        Tell your boss.

        You know that your boss is a competent manager, and that she’s unlikely to overreact (particularly given the value of the staff member planning this, poor professional judgement aside), so there’s no reason to keep her in the dark. She may prefer to head it off entirely (“I’ve heard you’re planning to buy me this. We don’t need to talk about it, but it’s inappropriate for this workplace, and not a gift I want. This is not a conversation we’ll be revisiting, just don’t do it.”), or let it play itself out and hope the silly gift-giver comes to her senses in time (but appreciate the heads-up). Either way, she deserves to know her staff are discussing her sex life and sexual pleasure in this level of detail, and to make her own decisions about how to handle it.

        1. WellRed*

          I agree with this. A heads up and let the boss figure out how she wants to handle it. NO ONE wants to see a sex toy at the office. What the hell is wrong with your coworker?

          1. valentine*

            Telling the boss, if nothing else, spares her the nasty surprise of opening a vibrator in front of a bunch of people who didn’t stop her doing that. No anon.

            Second-best would be a slow-mo “Nooooooo!” as you dive and knock it away from her.

  226. The Other Dawn*

    Yesterday I got a rejection email from a company I applied to two months ago. Two months! And I start my new job Monday. This is the second time this has happened with this company. The last time was when I applied in 2014. Guess when I got the rejection? Almost three months later, which was a couple weeks after starting a new job. That’s the only company that actually rejected me this time. All the others were just completely silent. But hey, I got *something* at least!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Thanks!

        I know–why bother?! And they did the same thing to me five years ago!

        1. Darren*

          Some companies recruitment process literally takes 2-3 months. Look at literally the first post in this open thread asking if 1-2 weeks is moving too fast and a red flag during hiring. If they don’t know you’ve gotten a position they once they get to the bit where they make the decision and it’s their policy to let you know they’ll email you, if there are places quicker at hiring you are likely going to end up starting there before they get back to you.

        2. Someone Else*

          They probably use a system by which you can get a rejection email two ways:
          Someone ticks a box that says “no” and it sends it to you that moment/that hour/at a designated time that day.
          OR
          They close the posting you had an open application for, and anyone other than the “yes” person gets the email automatically that moment/that hour/at a designated time that day.

          So there really isn’t any “bother” to the telling you two months later. It’s automated based on their internal process for keeping track of the position.

  227. Margaret*

    My contract is coming to an end and I’m applying for work elsewhere. I put in with a company in a different timezone than me, and heard back for an interview! It was at 11 pm my time, which is later than I stay up, but I had an extra cup of coffee and waited by the phone. There are some questions about my having a foreign number, we establish that I am legal to work in the country where they’re hiring. I settle in to wait for the call.

    Nothing. And they haven’t given me a contact number to try them at. I email them saying I’m sorry we couldn’t connect, then go to sleep. Three days later, I get a new email saying they’d like to set up an interview! Zero acknowledgement that they’ve already contacted me, zero response to my last email. This time the interview is at 1:30 am my time. I politely respond with an apology and remind them of the time difference, and ask if they have an earlier timeslot available. They let me know they’re looking for someone with more commitment, and they’ll be moving on with other candidates.

    1. alex b*

      That sucks; I’m sorry. The “more commitment” line doesn’t make sense to me, but they get to be choosy, I guess. Time zones always warp my brain; we’re about to have daylight savings in most of the US, and I’m bracing for the confusion. Good luck; doesn’t sound like you did anything objectionable!

    2. Buu*

      TBH sounds like you dodged a bullet. I suspect someone’s messed up the appointment their end and is pretending like they haven’t. Move on and take your talent to people who value your time.

  228. Anon In London*

    I’m three months into a job. I just got diagnosed with ADHD (finally) 2 weeks before my probation was extended – fairly – because I need to improve the accuracy of my data work (about 20% of my work, or should be). Work are nominally supportive in terms of adjustments, but nothing concrete has been put in place yet.

    I’m scared of losing my job. I was so excited to take on a role I could easily learn, with this extra specialist area to improve these specific skills, but I never considered I might simply fail at it from jump!

    It was acknowledged from day one that, from my testing at recruitment stage, I had weak knowledge in this area, but no training and limited direct support was provided during my induction (I asked for the former; didn’t realise till later the size of the gap to know how to ask for the latter effectively). I found my own options online after my first piece of work was not up to scratch. In addition to taking a course online, I have filled a lot of the technical gaps through ad-hoc self-study on the job; the problems now are due to my ADHD-related executive function impairments. I’m medicated. It’s helping. I don’t currently have a therapist, but I have a lot of existing compensatory strategies, am very disciplined about work with an excellent work ethic.

    My boss is broadly supportive, although between her working part-time and me not having upcoming planned data work (I get pieces one at a time – in 14 weeks I’ve had 1 large piece of analysis plus an additional graph after the fact; 1 list to produce and clean; 2 trackers to create). It was my first time doing all of this type of work (using functions like VLOOKUP, extensive iflogic/iferror, cleaning and categorising a large data set from scratch, and manipulating a large amount of pivot data, as well as using a new CRM system – that I’ve also not had training on).

    I did work with complex data sets in my last job, but not as an analyst – I was a service manager, responsible for producing reports for funders, and performance managing staff. I can even look back at my clumsy handling of that data now and see vast improvements I could make with my new skills and knowledge! In that environment, though, I was the best person among my 15-20 peers (and compared to my immediate bosses) for anything data-related. So, I thought I would be OK in this job, even with some new things to learn – things that drew me to this role.

    Since initially getting developmental feedback in January, I’ve doing all I can myself to improve my planning and organisation, building in fail-safes to mistake-proof my process and using my boss better when she’s around to support this improvement, as well as building in a buffer before a deadline to cool off and look at it with fresh eyes to catch mistakes. I don’t think I will make the same specific errors again, because of how embarrassing they were and because I’ve added them to my final proof checklist. But, that’s not how ADHD works.

    To add to this, and maybe this is all ego and I should talk to a therapist about this, I downshifted when I took this role – previously I was successful in a highly pressured middle management role running services for high risk domestic violence, at risk youth, and victims of crime – including personally holding a small caseload of terrorism survivors from March 2017 onward. I directly managed 14 staff from January 2018, while also indirectly managing a further 15 until March 2018. I suffered a stress breakdown last August and was off work for 6 weeks to seek mental health treatment. Despite all that, I left my last job on great terms, after successfully making a full return to work and recruiting temporary supervisors to cover my workload and support my teams and colleagues following my departure.

    I’m only 33 and now part of me is wondering if I’ve put my career out to pasture with all this. I’m not even sure I need advice, but I’m totally open to it. I just feel sad, hopeless, determined, frustrated, scared that how great I am at the other 80% of this new job can’t make up for this essential 20% piece. I’m not truly sure it’s within my gift to pass this probationary period.

    1. LGC*

      So what I’m reading is that you’re not great at Excel, but you’re good at the rest of your job.

      I know it’s a new job and you’re in the UK, but how hard would it be to restructure the position? Because it doesn’t seem to me that you’re primarily an analyst, and you even say that time-wise it’s not the bulk of your job. I’m hoping they keep you on and figure out a way to make it work – where you’re doing less backend manipulation, since that’s where you’re getting tripped up.

      And also – if it doesn’t work out, maybe it wasn’t meant for you. I know it’s easy to say but…it really seems to me like you just struggle with data, and that doesn’t mean you’re a failure. A lot of very successful people aren’t great with spreadsheets (I know, I work with them).

      1. Anon in London*

        That’s very possible. I mean, I took the role in part because I viewed this as an area where I was good at figuring it out and enjoyed that – I lacked knowledge initially, which I now have. I still have no real background in the kind of analysis tools used although I’ve been gradually picking up on good data practice and statistical tests, etc.

        I don’t feel ready to accept “not good at” as an end point – but maybe in the context of this job, I won’t be able to get good enough at it in time to pass probation.

        I’m not sure about whether it’s possible to restructure the data element. Or rather, I’m unsure whether that would be on the table. There are actual data people in the wider directorate who deal with really similar stuff – this element of the role appears to have survived the pre-me restructure for whatever reason. So maybe it’s a possibility.

        Any ideas on raising that as a possibility?

        1. Argh!*

          Is the Excel issue a training issue? There are online ways of improving your knowledge with it. If your company has Lynda.com, they often have downloadable practice files to work with. That way you could learn without risk to something you’re actually working on.

          1. Anon in London*

            Yes, it has been, and that was why I bought a Udemy course to help with that – which it did.

            The other more significant issue is less about excel, and more about prioritisation and planning and attention to detail. I’m great at problem solving – but, it is very hard for me to look at a range of options and easily see the simplest option that would probably be really obvious to you or, say, my boss.

            Especially since this is a new skill set and I have the added distraction of being excited about learning all these different ways of doing things and making it “go”, losing sight of the brief.

            Another issue is also with attention to detail. Proofreading. Sense checking. Blindness to errors that, with a cooling off period, or a second set of eyes, become obvious.

            “Just focus” or “just check” doesn’t help – because I do. I do focus and I do check. Thoroughly. Just… evidently not for the right things. I do think a lot of this is just the newness of it. With familiar or routine tasks? I have no difficulty, no matter how complex.

            1. LGC*

              What’s helped me is a mixture of learning the process and trial and error. That’s where the practice data sets can be really useful – messing up on those doesn’t damage anything, but it lets you see how things work.

              And knowing the process is like…I know for my job, when you open a task, it pulls the task files from our intranet and logs the task on our database. So if we get one type of error (about the server gateway), it means the task server is down. If we get another type of error (that mentions a dbo – database object), the database is down. Both error messages are horribly written and I spent far too much time reassuring my team that their computers were not about to explode (thankfully they finally picked up on that), but once you’ve seen them and know what they mean they’re not that scary.

              And speaking for myself (data nerd with autism), I’ll often go home and think of something that I could have done better.

              Finally – okay, I said this up thread more obliquely, but please stop beating yourself up over this! You’re talking about something that’s difficult for MOST people!

              1. Anon in London*

                Thanks. I’ll give the practice data sets a try and also – will try to remember that it’s actually not my fault and that I’m trying my best.

                This weekend I did try on for size “I loved the job and the people, and it was mostly a great fit, but unfortunately we both soon realised I lacked the deeper mathematical and technical background needed for the role, so we agreed it would be best to part ways.”

                It fit okay so I applied for a job and I plan to keep looking. Even if this doesn’t work out, I do want to improve my skills in this area. I just am not sure I can do this job well one formula at a time. I’m coming around to the idea that it’s more than that!!

  229. Nonyme*

    So I recently (five months ago) started a job with a very good company, in a call center. This is NOT a “sweat shop with phones” type call center — we’re paid well, the work requires some professional knowledge in a specific specialized field, and we are encouraged to go the extra mile and then some for our members. We are well known for our customer service.

    I have experience dating back to the 1990s in this field. I have close to 30+ years of customer service skillz. I’m good at this job.

    However, I’m fresh off a year and a half in a job with a Boss From Hell — I won’t go into details, but suffice to say it was really bad. If I posted stories about her here it would probably make the top-ten list of bad bosses here. My self confidence is still bruised and I’m working on that.

    So, as expected in a call center, they do call monitors. They listen to *previously recorded* calls, grade them, hand them back. My scores have been fine, there. My new boss says I’m doing a, “Damn fine job!” and tells me he needs more like me. The big boss has pulled me aside to tell me what a great job I’m doing on the calls he’s heard. Great! I love you guys too. (Seriously, I love this company.)

    However they have also started listening to my calls … live. It’s really obvious when they do this, because there’s a, “Ding!” in my ear when they log in to my call and then it gets painfully echo-ey. I’ve been working in call centers long enough to know exactly what’s going on.

    My work involves both HIPAA and financial information, so they would not be letting a client listen to the calls, or using them in a training class, for privacy reasons. I’ve watched and the calls I take when I’m being observed do not show up as monitors.

    I’ve asked my coworkers if they’re experiencing this, and they’re not. (And it’s really, really obvious when they’re observing my calls. The echo is awful. And then it’ll DING! again and go away. There have been times when I’ve started stuttering on a call because of the echo, and then apologized to my member, “Sorry, there’s an echo, it makes it hard to talk,” and almost immediately there’s a DING! and the echo goes away, so presumably somebody realized they were affecting my call and logged out.)

    I’ve asked my boss if they’re listening to my calls for some reason (thinking the explanation may be as simple as he’s randomly listening to us work while doing other things), and he denied it. And he’s honest, he’d say something.

    I’ve asked our quality team if they’re doing it, and they deny knowledge.

    … So now I’m paranoid.

    A couple things have occurred to me:

    1) They are listening to me for some reason, and either my boss or quality is denying it, for reasons, or they are unaware. Why?

    2) Somebody is listening to my calls to get financial information over the phone — we take payment information, so we’re discussing bank accounts, routing numbers, credit card numbers, and so forth. Plus the occasional full social and date of birth.

    (I have, actually, seen identity theft happen in another call center in relation to quality rep who did call monitors listening to calls and stealing data before … which is why that very large previous employer quit using socials entirely as an identifier, because, while she left in handcuffs, they had huge fines and a lawsuit to deal with. But that’s another story.)

    3) They’re listening to me for other reasons. Which would be …???

    For now, I’m on my best behavior. And I’ve started documenting the times I know I’m being listened to.

    Anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? Any call center managers want to weigh in? I’m concerned if I just went to my boss and brought up my concerns about the possibility of option #2 I would look like a paranoid lunatic.

    1. Argh!*

      When you asked your boss about this, did you describe what you hear? If someone else in the workplace is listening in without authorization, they would want to know about it.

    2. Kisses*

      Oh you’re not being paranoid. This same thing happened to my husband and I thought HE was being paranoid.
      He eventually left the company for a better one because his calls were constantly being monitored- his call times were high, but he was excellent at selling the stupid add-on security upgrade they were required to offer to all customers calling in for tech support.
      I don’t really have much advice- he was getting really paranoid though and very weirded out and it had an effect on his work. Same thing- no one would admit they were actively listening in but he had the same pickup type sound and reception would get messed up.
      The company he was with has actually been hit with a lot of lawsuits because of how they handled customer info, and also for owing back pay and unemployment not being paid out (I’m not too sure if it was a lawsuit IANAL but they have gotten in trouble.). They were bought out by Verizon.
      Good luck. But it did have a big impact on my husband and was one of the major reasons he left.

    3. nonegiven*

      Is there an IT security department to report to? I’d do that, and say you’re worried about somebody hacking in to get PII for ID theft.

    4. Mimmy*

      If you do bring this up again to your boss or the quality team, one thing I’d mention is how the echo is making it difficult to talk. Maybe that’ll spring them to start looking into what’s going on.

    5. SaaSyPaaS*

      Can you go back to your manager and let them know how this is affecting the service you’re providing to clients? If they really don’t know anything about your calls being live monitored, then I would open up a ticket with your IT department, tell them that call quality is being affected, and provide them with details and your dates/times so they can investigate. I can guarantee that whoever is listening in is leaving logs in the system, and the IT department can track it down and engage the right people to figure out what’s going on. They may or may not keep you updated on the details of it, but they will look into it. If someone is doing something they shouldn’t, opening up a ticket should get to the bottom of it. And if it’s just a glitch in the system (unlikely), then they need to know about it anyway.

    6. Beatrice*

      I manage within a department that includes a call center – most of my people aren’t on phones, but I work closely with managers who do manage the phone teams. We don’t live monitor at all, we only monitor recordings.

      I think you’re focusing on the wrong problem. It doesn’t matter if they’re listening to you live – they’re certainly entitled to do that, and they may or may not be straightforward with you about it, and that’s not something you really have standing to address. And anyone in management or QA with access to listen to you live probably also has access to listen to your recorded calls and gather the same personal data, so it doesn’t seem likely that someone’s listening in for that reason. Just let that go.

      The real problem is that you’re experiencing weird ding noises and echoing on your calls that make it hard to concentrate on the call and hard to hear the person on the other end. I’d log when that’s happening, and report it specifically as that issue without any assumptions about what might be causing it, and ask them to look into it. I’d specifically mention that the ding noises are exactly the same on totally different calls, so it’s definitely not background noise, and I’d mention that you checked with your peers and they’re not experiencing the same thing. If you’re able to try swapping out your headset or your phone (we have spares lying around, not sure about your place), maybe give that a shot and let them know how that works out. Report it, and if you don’t hear anything back and it keeps happening, maybe raise it again in a couple of weeks, and then let it go, and try not to dwell on it too much.

  230. Anonandon*

    What is the standard with regard to using color on Resumes? Normally I would be against it, but last night my wife made one where she put her job titles and credentials in a green font. It was very tasteful and professional (Not like comic sans or anything) and I thought it helped attract the eye to the most important information. Any thoughts?

    1. Hidden Trout*

      I imagine it depends on how conservative her field is, but it is probably becoming more common and accepted as our society continues to shift towards comfort with visual and graphic information. In general, if color helps the person who is looking at the resume glean pertinent information quickly, I think it can be valuable. I have blue titles and my name in blue at the top, and I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback from employers that my materials look great–and I’ve been hired with this resume.
      However, I’m an artist who works in schools, and my materials don’t get read by any automatic reader thingys.

    2. Someone Else*

      To my company this wouldn’t necessarily be a hindrance, but it’s not a help either.

    3. Rez123*

      I got my CV professionally hecked and revamped and she put down blue font for the subheading. I personally think that people should have CV’s with more personality. Even if it’s just a colour or something.

    4. L*

      minimal use at best and make sure it doesn’t it make it difficult for the colour-blind to read

  231. No-noom*

    What’s the market like for computer graphics programming like, especially for someone who lives near the Capital District in NY?

    I’m thinking about going into there after my Master’s is done. I’m refreshing on linear algebra and will start teaching myself C++ soon. Also taking a Udacity intro course that uses WebGL with a Javascript library, since my Master’s is in EE and not CS.

    One thing I’m wondering is how much of the market is not related to the game industry, because I’ve heard horror stories about work conditions there and I don’t think I could take that without my brain boiling.

    Thanks!!!!!

  232. MissMeow*

    Does anyone have interview tips for people with Asperger’s, social anxiety, or otherwise bad at picking up on verbal/social cues?

    I recently interviewed for a dream of a job, didn’t get it, and when I asked for constructive criticism they said that I didn’t answer their questions, even when they rephrased them. They suggested that I ask for clarification if I didn’t understand their questions. Problem is, I didn’t pick up on that AT ALL and thought I *was* answering their questions.

    Anyhow. Any advice is appreciated. Now I’m terrified to go to interviews.

    1. Lobsterp0t*

      I’m not sure this is about cues.

      Why don’t you google some common interview questions and then write out some sample answers, and get someone you trust to look over those and give you feedback?

      If it’s about cues, after you’ve answered, maybe listen to whether they prompt you. If they do, that says you might need to go deeper in that area.

      Another method that has helped me (adhd) is to list out all person spec competencies in a grid format and write examples in the STARR format. You can google that and see if that would be useful for you. I do that not to have canned sounding examples, but to help me structure answers more clearly.

    2. Darren*

      It might help if you could recall some of the questions they were asking? And something roughly resembling your answer.

      I can think of a number of behavioural probing questions that could no doubt be misinterpreted (in fact part of my interview training at work was on how to redirect people focusing on the wrong part, or not answering in enough detail).

      We are talking about questions like: “Can you discuss a time when you had to work with a difficult colleague” with probing to find out what exactly happened, what you did about it, etc.

      We’ve had people who have ended up with a very different idea of difficult than we meant, or steered the conversation (intentionally or otherwise) away from the details we were trying to get to.

    3. nonegiven*

      I’m thinking it’s one of those questions where the question they ask isn’t the question they wanted an answer to, it’s implied. I hate that. I’d try to answer the question they actually asked. If they hint at something they told me to do differently, I’d never understand. Just tell me in plain English if you want something specific, I’ll never be able to guess until I got fired for not doing it, maybe not even then.

  233. NotAHappyCamper*

    I’m looking for some suggestions as to how to get out of a possible team bonding wilderness trip at my manager’s cabin. Once a year I travel to one of my company’s locations in another country. It’s a very long trip (20 hours plus, usually with no sleep) and once there I tend to suffer from jet lag induced insomnia. Add to that I’m an introvert and very much in need of my alone time in a nice quiet hotel room every night. There have been suggestions that on the next trip we’ll all go stay in this cabin. What I’ve heard indicate it’s at least 5 hours drive from the office and doesn’t have rooms for everyone so some people will be sleeping under the stars. Also as one of the few females in the group I’m not comfortable staying in close quarters with a bunch of men I don’t know well. I’d like to find a way to frame a refusal to join them other than just saying I’d prefer not to go, and to counteract all the cries of “But it’ll be fuuuunnnn!” Any suggestions?

    1. Darren*

      Given the exceptional distance to the office (5 hours is ridiculous for a commute) I think you would easily be able to push back with focusing on that (i.e. you are there to deal with whatever work related matters that require you to travel down there in the first place) having to have a 5 hours commute (and it sounds like that’s each way) is clearly not going to help with doing that effectively as you’d get maybe 4 hours of work done before you’d have to head back for a reasonable amount of sleep.

      If they are talking about doing that on the weekend while you are down (instead of a daily thing) I’d focus on just not really being interested in that kind of activity and likely needing the weekends to recover properly from any jet lag and decompress from work (i.e. the same reason you don’t spend every weekend on work events currently).

      I doubt you’d get a lot of push back on the first bit, the second you might get a little but don’t feel you have to justify not going 5 hours away from the office you are visiting to a cabin that doesn’t even have enough rooms for everyone that’s going on the trip anyway. That isn’t everyone’s thing and it’s perfectly fine to opt-out of these things from time to time.

      If you do it right you can have dinners on the weekends with people from this other office and get some solid networking in while everyone else is off in the wilderness.

    2. WellRed*

      Play up the female thing. Not something I usually say but it could be helpful and not unreasonable here.
      Course. I also think sleeping under the stars is an unreasonable ask of people in work setting

  234. ..Kat..*

    Can you tell your boss that because of the 20 trip to this location, that you need to relax and unwind in a hotel room with privacy, hot water, electricity, etc?

    How about, because of my insomnia on these trips, for my health my doctor wants me to stay in a hotel room with privacy, hot water, electricity, etc?

    Can you just be firm? “That’s not possible for me.”

    Alison has replied to similar questions on Apr 23, 2018; Jan 28, 2014; Jan 28, 2013.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t mention details, in case they rush to solve them. Maybe the cabin has hot water and electricity. Just focus on the need to be in a private hotel room.

        1. NotAHappyCamper*

          Exactly, I don’t want to be too specific. We’re usually only there for a week, so I guess any team bonding trip would have to be the last night we were there, and just from a logistical view it would be a pain to organize.

  235. Rez123*

    I voulanteet every now and then for this organisation on the office side that provides a family cafe and short term childcare if the parents have some errands to run etc. the kids are looked after by paid interns. Since this orgasation doesn’t have a lot of money they rely on goverment support and the interns are paid by different benefit systems. As an example, the employment office pays the salary to incourage the unemployed individuals to get work experience or immigration office pays the salary to encourage immigrants to learn the language and integrate better. These interns are sent over by whoever pays their salary.

    The general area where we live is quite heterogeneous (white, non-religious christian) but this spesific suburb is diverse. Majority of the employees over the years have been muslim and it has been all good. Now the two latest employees are musli that wear the full veil (I believe it’s called a Niqab) and kids are scared of them since they cannot see their faces and it’s not common in the area. In addition to this the two need to pray every hour. So every hour they need about 15 minutes for prayer (including all the preparation). None of us have herd about this before, but thenagain we don’t know too much about different types of Islam. This is proving to be a bit diffucult and the person in charge of this branch (like all other branches) is a voulanteer and in a bit of a loss on what to do. She has contacted the regional HQ on what to do but they have not been able to do anything about this yet. It’s balancing between religious rights and still being able to do the job. Anybody here with some advice or experience?

    1. valentine*

      How do the Muslim employees want to handle coverage? Can you designate a prayer area where they can leave their rugs or anything else to reduce setup time? Is there a reason that can’t be quiet time, maybe coloring?

      This isn’t just covered faces. The children have learned anti-Muslim racism. See if Sesame Street has a relevant episode. Reach out to a mosque to help put together something familiarizing the children with hijab and niqab. Maybe a video you can put on your website. Only schedule one of them at a time. If they’re a package deal, hire someone to do childcare for the top quarter-hour every hour.

    2. Asenath*

      Talk to some of the Muslim employees to get their views, particularly Muslims who are involved in running the organization and familiar with your procedures. I’m not Muslim, but the most devout ones I know don’t pray every hour – it’s five times a day, with the earliest and latest not usually being on work hours, if you’re talking regular daytime hours (which seems likely for an organization enabling people to run errands).

      I’d think the children would get used to the full veils pretty quickly, particularly if everyone else on site takes them for granted.

  236. Astrea*

    Probably too late go be seen this week, but…there’s a local job I want, which is well matched with my skills and experience. Being temporary, it periodically opens, and it opened today. I’ve applied for it twice in the past two and a half years, and been rejected in the first cut. Outsiders have told me that it was likely to have been filled internally. The employer is very high-profile, and there’s a lot of competition for every open job. It looks like the HR contact for this job has changed since the last time I applied. My question is, would applying for this position a third time hurt my chances of seeking any other work there?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you working there as a temp? If so, is there someone you can talk to about your interest rather than cold applying ? It seems like you should have some slight advantages here.

      1. Astrea*

        I don’t currently work there, though I interned there ten years ago and one of my internship bosses still works there. I have multiple friends-of-friends there who aren’t in HR or work related to the position I’m currently pursuing, and am seeking any guidance they might offer, though I feel pressure to submit an applicant ASAP because it could close at any time. I’m not 100% certain I would take the job if offered it, but that’s usually the case with potential jobs for me.

Comments are closed.