my employee gets drunk on business trips

by Alison Green on April 17, 2019

A reader writes:

I need to know the proper way to handle the fact that one of our employees drinks at night while on the road with the crew. Our company pays for the hotel rooms and the guys bunk two to a room. We are getting complaints that one of the guys drinks every night and becomes loud and belligerent and it is difficult for the other employees to share a room with him.

I answer this question — and four others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • My job offer was rescinded — after I quit my current job
  • An employee clique is causing problems
  • Are employee referrals effective?
  • I don’t want to share a spreadsheet that I created on my own initiative
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{ 265 comments }

{ 265 comments… read them below }

  1. Roscoe*

    For #1, would you be willing to allow the employee in question to pony up more money for a single room? That may mitigate some of this. Because honestly, if these are people who don’t drink at all, or at least on business trips, I can see them being bothered in general by his drinking even if he isn’t actually disruptive.

    1. Annette*

      Really don’t understand this comment. The disruption is the issue. If someone is so bothered by alcohol consumption that they wouldn’t room with a drinker on a business trip. Why should the drinker have to pay for their unusual boundaries. If anyone should pay it is teetotaller.

      1. Jam Today*

        They’re not bothered by alcohol consumption, they’re bothered by the drinker becoming loud and belligerent. That’s a behavior problem that needs to be address with and by the person being disruptive, not the person having to put up with them.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        The letter doesn’t say a thing about the complainers being non-drinkers.

        I drink like a sailor when I feel the desire and I don’t want to be around loud, belligerent drunks ever, let alone being made to bunk with them on a business trip.

        It’s a behavior issue not a drinking in general issue.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I see now that Roscoe did bring up “if they don’t drink at all” in their comment, so I get it now.

          Needs. More. Caffeine.

      3. Clorinda*

        If only one teetotal colleague complained, that would be one thing, but this sounds like multiple colleagues complaining, so the problem is the drunkenness and belligerence, not someone else’s puritanic repression.

        1. Annette*

          Personally – I agree with you. But read Roscoe’s comment. He said ‘disruption aside’ some would have a problem with drinking. I say – that’s their problem. The disruption and belligerence = the issue.

          1. Wintermute*

            It would be, but for the fact they’ve been disruptive and belligerent. It’s not unreasonable to say “you’ve proven you can’t handle your liquor, I’m not going to tolerate drinking to the point of intoxication from this point forward” and hold them to that, because otherwise the poor other employees are stuck waiting and wondering if they’ll behave “this time” or not.

      4. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

        Definitely not a solution to the underlying problem. Drinking excessively, to the point of being disruptive, while on a business trip is an issue, even if you’re doing it on your own time. And neither should have to pay extra for their own room. Forcing co-workers to share rooms on business trips is ridiculous. If you’re sending someone away from home, they should be able to have their own space to unwind after the work day. But that’s a whole other issue.

        1. Observer*

          The issue is not the shared rooms – someone who behaves that way is going to be a problem even without sharing a room.

          I agree that they shouldn’t have to share a room. But he still needs to rein in his behavior. If he’s coming back to the hotel loud and belligerent, he’s going to be that way to the hotel staff, whoever is in the lobby and possibly to to other staff who are already in their rooms.

        2. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

          Yeah, that’s what I kept thinking when reading it – private rooms would solve this, and there are just SO many reasons why forcing employees to share a room is a bad idea, from snoring to sleep disorders to just general privacy. And, of course, drunken belligerence.

          1. Parenthetically*

            I really don’t think private rooms solve the problem of an employee getting wasted on work trips. The walk from the bar to the hotel room offers plenty of opportunities for drunken belligerence to be a nuisance to coworkers. Plus the fact that “drunk every night” on a work trip leads inevitably to “hung over every day” on a work trip!

            1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

              Well, depends on what’s happening on the work trips – if the only issue from drinking is really and truly that he annoys his roommate, then that’s solved. But yes, if he’s doing other bad things, that’s a problem.

              And actually, I hadn’t noticed the line about constant hangovers… that is actually a huge problem. Super unprofessional, and unlikely that he’s operating at full capacity when hungover. Yup, that would not be solved by separate rooms. But it would at least mitigate the annoyance for his coworkers.

            2. JustaTech*

              There’s a legendary story at my company about two guys who, right before a hugely important time-sensitive job, got wasted, got in a fight in the hotel hallway (over one guy wanting the other to stop drinking) and one guy ended up in the hospital with a broken orbit (eyesocket).

              As a consequence everyone else on the team was pulling double and triple shifts.

              Two drunk dudes were not fired.

        3. ginger ale for all*

          I work for the state. We all have to share rooms unless we are very high up. I believe a lot of non-profits also have work trips with shared rooms.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            I also work for a non-profit and there is no way I would expect to get a room to myself on a trip, unless maybe everyone else on the trip were male (I’m a woman).

    2. Parenthetically*

      I think nobody should have to share a room with a coworker, and that’s something OP’s company needs to address for lots of reasons.

      But that’s an entirely different issue than, “Fergus gets wasted and belligerent every night and we’re all sick of his sh*t.”

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I agree there are two issues the sharing of rooms, and Fergus getting drunk and belligerent. If people didn’t have to share rooms it would partially solve the disruption issue for the other coworkers. But Fergus getting drunk and belligerent is still an issue that needs to be addressed.

        1. HeyAnonanonnie*

          My spouse travels for work and they end up doing evening networking. Getting drunk and belligerent would be an issue even without room sharing.

        2. Observer*

          It might help – or not. If he’s coming back with everyone, he’s probably causing problems before they ever get to their rooms. And people like that are perfectly capable of also coming along and banging on their doors.

          Which means that although the company should stop making them share rooms, it’s not really relevant to the fact that he’s not behaving appropriately.

          1. DaffyDuck*

            This! The big problem is belligerent drunks are a PITA. He is gonna be a hassle no matter where he sleeps.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      That could work – although side-eyeing the idea of sharing rooms in the first place.

      Basic rule of thumb is “does it affect work or colleagues?” – so their drinking isn’t an issue in which the employer has a say in and of itself. As soon as there’s disruption or performance issues, they do! But if this will fix the issue, it may be worth looking at.

      But seriously. Don’t ask people to share.

    4. BRR*

      I don’t think this is a great solution. If I was the non-belligerent employee, I wouldn’t be enthusiastic about paying for a single room because of my coworker’s preventable behavior. It feels like a punishment for the person who isn’t doing anything wrong.

      And of course the real solution to work towards is single occupancy.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Wait, wasn’t the suggestion for Drunken employee to buy a separate room if he wants to drink?

    5. Mr. Tyzik*

      All this does is enable the drunken coworker and further encourage his behavior. Now he has an acceptance place, and since he isn’t disciplined for his behavior he has license to continue it.

      1. Drr*

        It isn’t the employer’s job to keep people from drinking on their own time. Just because an employer sends someone on a work trip doesn’t mean the employer completely owns all of their time and gets to manage their behavior.

        1. Quickbeam*

          I’d add from an odd point of view….I do worker’s compensation case management. Employees in most states who are traveling are entitled to “ordinary comfort” which in most states includes drinking. For many years even prostitutes were considered “ordinary comfort”.

          The employer indeed does not own the employee’s off hours even if it means getting hammered, falling and sustaining a head injury. I paid that work comp claim.

          Behavior that annoys co-workers is an internal matter for the manager. But drinking on its own after work hours is not the arena of the employer (says this complete teetotaler).

          1. Gazebo Slayer*

            I once worked for a company which banned all alcohol consumption during work trips, even in off hours. Not that I agree with that policy, but some employers do regulate off-duty drinking. (A belligerent drunk being obnoxious to coworkers is one of the few situations where they *should*.)

        2. Dust Bunny*

          He’s on a business trip, though, and we’ve gone over before on AAM that in a case like that you’re still pretty much representing your employer. If he’s a nuisance to hotel staff or other guests because he’s loud, it’s still a problem. They can’t tell him what to do after hours in his own home, but, yes, they can tell him to rein it in when he’s representing them on their dime.

          1. JM60*

            Them getting separate rooms is unlikely to affect how likely he is to hurt the company by his drinking. He’s about as likely to be a nuisance to hotel staff whether or not he has his own room. So while the company can have some right to ask him to rein it in, getting separate rooms probably isn’t really ‘enabling’ any problem that the employer is obligated to fix.

      2. Mr. Tyzik*

        I never said enabling the drinking, but the behavior. Coworker can drink as much as he wants but he can’t pester the other coworkers with loud and belligerent behavior. There’s a difference.

        I would say the same thing about enabling the behavior if drinking weren’t in the equation. In either case, giving the guy his own room just gives him more space; it doesn’t curtail the behavior (and the complaints) in any way.

    6. DrR*

      Roscoe seems also to be pointing out that we don’t really know how “loud and belligerent” this guy is getting. If the roommates think drinking is bad, they could be exaggerating.

  2. EPLawyer*

    I want to see we’ve seen the last one before. But it is timely because I asked last week (?) what a team player really is. This answers it. A team player is someone who creates a new process that is helpful to the job AND SHARES IT with the rest of the team/office. A team player shares knowledge and does not hoard it.

    The rescinded offer: Given the response, I’m betting something came up in the reference check that really blew it up. Could be bad information and the offeree should be given a chance to respond. But sometimes employers are just unwilling to even address it.

    The Clique — everyone doesn’t have to be friends. But they do have to work together. The longer tenured employees are undermining your leadership too when they question decisions and new process roll outs. You need to nip it in the bud to be an effective manager.

    1. Anonforthis*

      That would be my guess too, but it’s pretty crappy not to at least tell the person that they didn’t pass the reference/background check. If it was a background check, under the FCRA, I believe that the employer has to tell them and give them the opportunity to rectify any incorrect information.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        To the best of my knowledge, as someone who performs background checks: depends what exactly blew it up – and where they live – and whether they ticked the box on the authorization form asking to be informed of any issues that come up.

        1. bikes*

          I know there’s not a single answer to this question, but how extensive are most background checks? Criminal history and verification of education only or financial checks as well? What if someone seems great but they have bad credit?

          1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

            It really depends; checking financial history costs more money then a more basic check, and you need the person’s permission, so it’d usually be reserved for fairly high-level positions. How much weight they put on it would probably vary by position – bad credit/bankruptcy/massive debt is probably a red flag for a candidate for, say, CFO, but less so for a director of marketing. This kind of in-depth check would likely not be performed for more entry-level positions.

    2. Coffeelover*

      Super crappy if that’s what happened. Employers shouldn’t extend offers until they’ve gone through their full process – which includes things like references and background checks.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        Or if they do that make sure that it is clear “this is a conditional offer of employment based on passing reference and background checks.” if they do that it allows the prospective employee to wait to give notice at their current employer until they have fully passed everything.

        1. Super Dee Duper Anon*

          Yeah – this is super common in my industry (the “offer contingent upon successful completion of background and reference checks” clause). It’s sometimes tough because the new employer sometimes wants to get the person in and started as soon as possible and don’t really want to wait for the notice period on top of the background check period. Its silly, but the background check can feel like a strictly HR process or like a mere formality to the hiring manager.

          At least it’s usually made very clear that this is the case, so if the offeree chooses to give notice before the checks are complete the risk is on them.

        2. lazuli*

          Our standard conditional letter of employment explicitly says something like, “Do not resign from any current jobs until the background check is complete and we give you a final offer letter.” I think it’s good to be that clear!

      2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        This is a function of the law in some states. I remember in Massachusetts, we couldn’t run a background check until after an offer had been extended and accepted. It was to prevent employers from discriminating against those with a criminal record, though in reality all it did was cause the rejection to come at the end of the hiring process instead of the beginning.

        1. Jadelyn*

          California requires the same, but the offer extended can and should be explicitly named as a conditional offer based on successful completion of a background check, to avoid this kind of misunderstanding.

      3. Jadelyn*

        YES. We’ve had this issue before – I work in an industry that requires background checks before someone can start, and we require reference checks as well. We DO NOT issue formal offer letters until BOTH of those steps are completed, specifically because we’ve been burned by situations like this in the past. On the rare occasion that a hiring manager makes enough fuss that we allow an exception to procedure, it includes language stipulating that it is a CONDITIONAL OFFER based on successful completion of the background and reference checks, literally bold and underlined so you can’t miss it.

        We actually just had this come up a couple weeks ago – the person who does our background checks jumped the gun on giving us an approval, we reached out to the candidate and made the offer and she put in her notice – and then we got a “wait stop never mind” from the background check person. We ended up having to *fight* to allow us to move forward with the candidate despite that, because we were all furious that we might have to screw someone over like that. We prevailed in the end, essentially winning a “if you give us a go-ahead, you can’t take it back later” policy, but it was a huge problem and a lot of people were very upset.

      4. Brett*

        In some cases, the employer is legally bound from doing a full background check until an offer has been extended. With old job, where they pulled your tax records, sealed criminal records, and lots of other information a normal employer would not be able to obtain, they were required to extended a conditional offer of employment before the background check could begin.

      5. Wintermute*

        They shouldn’t, but they do. My last two jobs I was actually working on the floor of the data center before the drug test and background check were fully complete, with the understanding my further employment would be contingent on good results.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      Also it could have been a case of mistaken identity – so it’s worth giving them the chance to set the record straight!

      1. CatMintCat*

        That happens. My husband has a super common last name, and very common in his age group first name (not quite John Smith, but not far off it). He’s been questioned for more detail on his police check several times (obviously there is another “John Smith” around his age who is not the law-abiding citizen my husband is). It always goes through, of course, but it does take time. I could see an employer just seeing the false positive and throwing him out.

    4. pcake*

      Re the rescinded offer – it could be the reference check, but it could just as easily be that they decided to hire someone internally or even not fill the position at all to save money.

      1. Mongrel*

        ” …not fill the position at all to save money.”

        We had that where I worked. the company was hiring a new low level director for a new role. Quit his old job to be here and was being shown around on his first day, call came in from Head Office asking if he’d signed his contract yet …

        Poor chap was out of the door by lunchtime

        Apparently Head Office had slammed down a moratorium on hiring hard and he got caught up in this (along with some terrible timing)

  3. Linzava*

    OP #2,

    This happened to my fiance 3 years ago and were still digging out of the financial hole it caused. Please put this up on glassdoor, it’s the only way to warn others.

    In our case, we didn’t get an apology either and my fiance used to work for the person who did it to us, so it was bad. He didn’t feel at all bad about it. Also, the company in question is a big corporation in the medical field.

    I’m so sorry, I know exactly how you feel.

    1. Annie*

      Did they at least give you any explanation?

      It’s so crappy that they won’t explain to LW’s husband. I wonder if they found something really bad about him?

      1. Linzava*

        The explanation was that they hadn’t gotten the position approved, so the job was theoretical. I asked if the email the manager sent with the salary package, start date, and written directions to put in his 2 weeks notice was also theoretical. No answer.

        In our case, there wasn’t anything bad to find out about my fiance, he worked for this manager before.

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      Mine too. I’ve had an offer rescinded (fortunately I hadn’t resigned my old job) but I still remember how sick I felt when I got the call.

      2. OffTheHelpdesk*

        I had an offer rescinded because of a suspended license I didn’t disclose, which was related to a DUI that I did. I explained to the HR contact that I erroneously thought it was a traffic violation, and not a misdemeanor. I further explained that I had freely disclosed worse and that I’d worked in government, gaming, and finance (much more sensitive environments) since the incident. The job payed less that the position I was leaving, but I wanted out of a toxic environment. Within four months, I’d found a much better and higher paying position across town.

        1. So long and thanks for all the fish*

          I was asked to include traffic violations along with misdemeanors and felonies in the job I was just offered. The only thing I have for that section is a speeding ticket, which somehow the court system has as Firstname Lastname Middlename. So I disclosed it, and when it asked what name the conviction was under, I wrote that it was under Firstname Lastname Middlename. Which isn’t a name I’ve ever actually gone by, so the background check people just got really confused and just wanted my legal name. I’m scared the offer is going to be pulled based on giving incorrect information about my conviction record… Just waiting till then.

    2. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Same. The closest I’ve come to this was a company saying that if they were able to get a contract, I would be hired. Thankfully I didn’t resign, because they didn’t get the contract. I always ask for an offer letter, because it gives me more peace of mind than a verbal offer, but even that is no guarantee that the job won’t be rescinded.

    3. HeyAnonanonnie*

      I did federal hiring during an administration switch. We knew a hiring freeze was coming and we were terrified they would backdate the freeze to election day (supposedly Reagan did it, I haven’t looked into it). It would have been awful. We desperately needed to fill the spots and got them in with like a day to spare. I would have felt awful if we were forced to cut them.

    4. lnelson in Tysons*

      I was at a company that did that to two potential employees. One was out of work at the time so still bad. The other had quit her job and went to visit family overseas thinking that she would have a new job to come back to.
      I have no idea if they were ever told why. There were lays-off so in addition to these two not being hired about 60% of the work force was also let go.
      Not fun times.

      1. Busy*

        I mean, how do you not see a need for lay-offs coming. Even if you operate on contracts, you have to know when contracts are coming and going – and when to be hiring and when to not. You can warn people you hire about that too. It kind of reminds you of those restaurants back in 2008 who would just lock the doors and leave a sign that it was closed for their employee’s to find the next day. Like, they didn’t know even 2 weeks prior? It makes no sense.

        1. Gazebo Slayer*

          There was a chain of restaurants in my state that did that – and refused to pay its workers their paychecks for the last couple of weeks they’d worked, too!

          The only up side: nonpayment of wages is a felony here, and the owners were arrested. I hope they ended up as broke as their workers and never got to be in charge of anything else ever again.

        2. Knotty Ferret*

          I worked for a publicly traded company that was doing a lot of hiring in my division for their expected expansion and rebuild of the system, right up until headquarters decided to scrap that (and the entire division).
          Because we were publicly traded and that kind of information affects stock prices, it was kept very secret until it was released to the public. Its quite possible some people had this conversation with our hiring team, including the inability to release any info about why.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Sicking but this is typical for the service and retail industries.

          They pulled a Wendy’s franchise contract because the local owner wasn’t up to snuff. Nobody told the employees until they showed up and had no job

          It’s not because the higher ups don’t see it coming, it’s because they’re scumbags who pocket what’s left of the money and flee hoping to escape their debtors.

          This is also why most vendors for restaurants require COD for deliveries. Notorious for not paying their bills.

        4. SusanIvanova*

          When my whole team was laid off, the directors knew it was coming but the managers didn’t.

        5. Western Rover*

          I worked for a company that closed suddenly with zero notice to their employees, the day before they would have been evicted from their office space, because they had stopped paying rent months before. So obviously upper management knew. As it was a mortgage company, not only were employees left in the lurch, but any buyers who had been expecting to close on a new house also had to scramble to find another mortgage.

        6. The New Wanderer*

          I worked at a (at the time) Fortune 50 company that went through multiple rounds of layoffs due to obvious stock issues and dotcom bubbles bursting. In the middle of it but before I myself was laid off, I was planning to attend a conference, on my own dime after the company withdrew travel funding for everyone, and management asked me to put up “We’re Hiring!” flyers (yes this was a while ago). Like, seriously? I took the flyers, but did not post them. My division ended up getting cut by 90% within the year.

        7. JustaTech*

          Heck, for a while in my city it was the biotech companies that would just lock the doors. One place took everyone out to lunch, padlocked the doors shut and mailed everyone the desk stuff.

          Some places claim they *have* to do it that way to keep employees from stealing everything.

    5. Queen of the File*

      This happened to me once as an entry-level employee. The person hiring me had no idea her entire department (including her) was about to be laid off, and I guess HR couldn’t tell her she wasn’t allowed to hire anyone without tipping her off? I was upset about the situation (it was a GREAT first job offer and I had made plans to move to a new city for it) but at least I got an explanation.

      1. Gazebo Slayer*

        And they prioritized not tipping her off about the layoff over the livelihoods of everyone being offered jobs in that department?

        Wow. That HR department is scum.

        1. Not Me*

          Agreed. There are ways around this without screwing with people by offering a job you know you’re not going to give them. That’s incredibly shady.

  5. Merry*

    The heavy drinker should be talked to, but ugh, making employees share rooms for work travel sucks anyway.

    1. Malarkey01*

      Yeah being drunk and belligerent to coworkers is never okay and should be handled, but this is just one of the many many reasons that coworkers should not be forced to share rooms, and it really opens companies to tons of legal entanglements. I really thought this practice would be over by now.

      1. Frank Doyle*

        This sounds like it’s some kind of construction or physical repair work, and I think it’s probably still really common in fields like that.

        1. Kittymommy*

          This is what I was thinking as well. I have some friends that work with theater tours and their crew share rooms. It’s pretty standard in a lot of labor/blue collar industries.

          1. dramalama*

            I did survey work, and the majority of people I worked with would never work for a company that would make you share rooms. In fact, most people would refuse to come back next season if the company booked shitty hotels– it’s where you live for months on end, the sensible people I worked with considered it a major part of their compensation.

  6. Drax*

    I’m actually appalled by the “please see attached”

    Like. Couldn’t have at least put it in the email??

    1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Seriously. It’s the job equivalent of breaking up with someone over a text.

      1. Parenthetically*

        It’s the job equivalent of having your friend break up with your partner over text! SO cold.

        I hope this poor guy left a brutal Glassdoor review.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Only if you’re breaking up with them by text by sending them a meme that just says “Byeeeeeee, Felicia.”

        I mean you can break up with people on text and give them a lot of information or you can break up with them and say “DUMPED” and then block them on everything.

        1. Gazebo Slayer*

          I hope this company has had someone quit their job by sending a Bye Felicia meme by text.

          Or by writing “I QUIT” in fish filets. :-)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I was so tempted to spell out “Byeeeee” in ‘something’ on my way out of a former job but then you have to remember that sometimes a job offer gets rescinded and that’s literally the only thing that kept me from going out in that blaze of glory ;)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Right?! You put it in the body of the email and attach a PDF for their files.

      Also I’m like “What did you find out that you went so ice-cold and ‘I’m not at liberty to say'”. That’s like “Oh you know what you did.” level of brutality.

        1. irene adler*

          Sure is.
          If there is a ‘bad deed’ in the candidate’s past, at least give them the opportunity to address it. Don’t just take it on faith.What if the ‘bad deed’ was mistakenly attributed to the job candidate?

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            It really leads you down that rabbit hole of what happened.

            In the states I’ve lived in, you have to tell someone if their background check popped for something and due to that you’re not hiring them.

            However I’ve seen a lot of people who are sabotaged by someone inside. Like the LW who was a high school bully, her victim was the rockstar of the company and refused to work with LW. So they didn’t hire her. Thankfully they told her why but we also see why some employers wouldn’t give that information, since the LW then stalked down the girl who blackballed her *doh*

            I have a personal story about how we hired someone, we didn’t do any checks, we didn’t care, it’s a labor job that if you wanted, you got to try it out. So we send New Guy out to the shop and suddenly Old Dude busts into the office and simply quips “Hey guys, thanks for hiring the guy who ****ed my wife! I think he’s on drugs, you may want to bolt everything down that isn’t already bolted down!”

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                That as the only job I’ve ever had to fire someone because they got hurt and came back dirty on a drug screen. Not just a little dirty, it had ALL the drugs in there.

                Small town, rural America, I’m glad I escaped you.

                1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

                  In fairness to small town and rural I saw this happen at one remove while working in a city with a population at the time (early 00’s) of just over 1.5 million as well.
                  I’ll not get into the rabbit hole question of why, but yes, this was also a labor type job.

              2. Just Employed Here*

                (Well, at least Mrs Old Dude was an adulterer. We don’t know the marital status of New Guy.)

                1. Gazebo Slayer*

                  I think knowingly boning a married person counts as adultery even if you’re single yourself? Idk.

                2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                  In most areas, you’re considered an adulterer if you’re found keeping the company of a married person, even if you’re technically not married at the time. You’re not supposed to touch another man’s wife and all that archaic jazz.

                3. CL*

                  In most, if not all, states that still have them, adultery laws only apply to a married person. Basically, the legal definition of an adulterer there is “a person who is cheating on their own spouse.” If you are single and are having an affair with a married person, you are not an adulterer, but they are.

                4. Peter the Bubblehead*

                  The single person COULD use the excuse that they didn’t know the other person was married.

            2. Creag an Tuire*

              The “high school bully” didn’t get a job offer revoked, though, she just didn’t get hired, right?

              I don’t think employers are obligated to say more than “thanks but no thanks” before you accept an offer and put in notice, but afterwards is much different.

    3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      And what was in the attachment anyway? It wasn’t an explanation. So OP’s husband had to open the letter to read, “We are rescinding our offer.”
      Dick move.

      1. Drax*

        right?? Like come on. Did you have to put the extra step in there to ruin his day even more?

      2. Long Time Reader, First Time Poster*

        I feel like maaaaaybe the idea behind putting the message in an attachment was to protect the recipient’s privacy?

        It’s terrible to get jilted like that in an email, but probably exponentially more terrible if the message preview comes up on somebody’s phone and it gets read first by somebody other than the intended recipient?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Actually I like this idea, I think it makes sense.

          A lot of emails have preview option. Like my gosh, think about getting that notification on your phone and someone rubber necking it.

      3. BRR*

        It’s like, let’s make every single part of this as awful as possible. I would definitely be willing to push back hard as to why. It’s not like there’s anything to lose. I wouldn’t want to work for this company again.

      4. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I would bet money some legal/HR type created the letter in a Word doc, as you sometimes do, without thinking it through, and then somehow it got sent out that way without anyone thinking it through.

        But really, this should have been a phone call (followed by an email confirmation if necessary).

  7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    #5, you are doing yourself a great disservice by hoarding your work tools like that. You want to say “Yes, sure I made it, I’ll share it and I’ll keep it up to date and since you’re accepting of this as a group tool, I’m going to do it on company time instead of my own time now.” You shouldn’t have had to do it on your own time anyways, that’s so bizarre, did you have a reason why you’d think you couldn’t do it while in the office or was it just you had no time to do it given the daily business happenings?

    I have regularly been plunked into a position without any written procedures or tools like you’re describing. What you can do is take on this project and use it to get you promotions and more money in the future. That’s how it’s worked for me. I set up entire offices from scratch at times given my natural instinct to set up procedure documents. This comes from a lifetime of finding jobs that have been sinking holes of “we cannot find anyone to do this job, why why why?”, the why is that most people don’t want to start from scratch and want some kind of guidance available. It’s also born from the fact that I’ve seen businesses crumble due to not having things written down and the big-boss loses his mind, literally, it was dementia. We had to scrape his decaying brain when it was almost too late and a lot of things were lost.

    Use it to your advantage, it won’t help you get very far in the long run otherwise.

    1. PM Punk*

      Totally agree. Someone on a project of mine tried the “I did this on my own time” line with me and it did not go over well. LW5 will come off as not being a team player, or worse, as inept regarding the expectations surrounding their employment.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Yep. Whereas “look what I did on my own time – do you think it would be useful?” will get plaudits.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also if you’re non-exempt, “doing it on your own time” is a violation and can be really serious depending on the job you’re doing. Like are you supposed to have those files at home is a question that may pop up when you’re doing something like that.

        1. katelyn*

          My first thought was “do the bosses and IT know that customer data was accessed off-site”. I guess if it was through a VPN or something that’s fine, but certain data should not be anywhere off of secured servers, filerooms and work locations.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      I thought the letter would go the other way. OP is being very short sighted. This is 100% look what I did. Here’s why I put it together; here’s why it’s structured this way. Can we have a meeting so that I can show people how to use it?
      This is like Office worker 101. How to stand out and be noticed.

      1. Jadelyn*

        YES! You can leverage this kind of thing. I’ve done it and that was one of the things that helped get me from a part-time temp admin to a full-time specialist role. I’ve created numerous tools just for myself, then looked at them and though “oh hey, this might be useful” and sent it around to my team with a note “hey I made this for myself, wanted to share in case anyone wanted to use it as well”. Like the salary range calculator, since we do ranges geo-adjusted by region and I got tired of looking up a range and having to manually calculate the regional version for managers. So I built a calculator with dropdowns so all you have to do is pick the department, then pick the position, then pick the location, and it gives you the range.

        That thing has been shared around with senior leadership and everyone loves it. I got a TON of capital off that one tool – because I shared it and made not only my job, but a lot of people’s jobs easier.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes! I am not as awesome as building calculators, I’m firmly in the “Intermediate” level of spreadsheet building.

          However I did build out spreadsheets for our excise tax returns so that we can see it all on one page, since their online portal, well it’s awful and this way I can cross reference and double check all our numbers are matching. It builds us more protection in case of an audit.

          I don’t know how the other people before me even did it, it was obnoxious enough reviewing the old records to figure out their system, let alone not building out a spreadsheet of my own. Lots of color coding and a color coding legend of course so anyone could pick it up later and figure it out.

          My boss was thrilled by it, he reviews everything just so there’s an extra set of eyes on it and also so he has a good idea where the numbers are coming from and that everything is on track, etc. Needless to say, it’s one of the reasons why I’ve been given so much trust and my scope keeps getting longer at a rapid pace.

    3. Blue*

      Yeah, I did something similar when I started at my last organization (not on my own time, though; this was definitely on the clock). It was entry-level, and they allowed very little space for entry-level people to do anything special or noteworthy. Putting together a resource for my own use and then, critically, sharing it with everyone else was pretty much the only way for me to stand out and show my value to the office. And it worked! Despite being one of the most recently hired entry-level people, I was widely considered a shoo-in for a promotion when one became available. In a reasonably healthy work environment, there are likely to be future rewards for doing this kind of thing. If you refuse…well, I imagine there would be future consequences for that, too.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s also really good for your resume to use in those interviews for “tell me how you go above and beyond” sort of questions.

        Just in case you’re not in a company that you have any growth options and are going to look to be taken on in a higher role elsewhere!

    4. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      +11111!!!

      LW – it sounds like this is very job-specific, yes? Possibly very company-specific as well? Would it even have any value to anyone outside your company? (And even if it did – even on your own time, you were still using company files and resources, soooo that’s still not something you can ethically share outside the company.) So – no value outside the company, but inside the company, a demonstration of initiative and problem-solving. Inventing & maintaining shared resources makes you look like an invaluable employee, one with real potential for advancement. Make it into an additional responsibility, one you can take on and point to during your performance reviews as going above-and-beyond, as increasing efficiency and improving processes. That’s the kind of thing you can leverage into a raise.

    5. JanetM*

      The Man, Becky Lynch wrote, “[M]ost people don’t want to start from scratch and want some kind of guidance available.”

      Yes, this. I documented my previous job all to heck, because I am walking proof that anyone can get hit by a truck. That came in handy when
      – I went on vacation
      – I went to help take care of my dying father for six weeks
      – I moved into a new position

    6. londonedit*

      I totally agree with all of this. When I started my current role, I had no handover except for a few notes on the status of the projects I was taking over. There were a few new people who started at the same time as me, and when we went to the various training sessions during our first weeks in the job, I made notes and then typed the notes up as simple step-by-step guides to using the systems we’d learned about. That’s the way I learn – I make notes and then type up a guide for myself, and that has the dual effect of cementing the information in my mind and also giving me a reference sheet in case I do forget how to do something. I suppose I could have kept these guides to myself, but it didn’t really occur to me to do that – people were asking questions about how to use the systems, so it made sense to me to send round my notes. People were SO appreciative and made so many comments about how I’d really helped them, how my notes were invaluable, etc etc. It was a win-win – everyone had a bit of help while they were getting to know the systems, which meant fewer mistakes, and I came out of it looking like a real team player who went above and beyond to help people.

  8. Noah*

    The legal theory for OP#2 could be “reasonable reliance,” but the better position here is breach of contract.

    1. Jam Today*

      If there’s no contract, there’s no breach (I don’t think an offer letter counts as a “contract” in an at-will environment). Would promissory estoppel be at play though?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, you might be able to argue detrimental reliance/promissory estoppel. However, it wouldn’t get you the job back, and even if you find a lawyer willing to take it, it might not get you enough to be worth the trouble and the reputational hit. So I think it’s a theoretical legal remedy that in reality is rarely worth it.

    2. HeyAnonanonnie*

      It depends on if he had a contract. My guess would be he may have a claim on the signing bonus. He would really need his own lawyer, though.

  9. CatCat*

    Wow, #2. So awful. A nightmare for anyone. In addition to Alison’s excellent approach to addressing the company that flaked out, if in the USA, I would also recommend filing for unemployment benefits. Eligibility varies from state-to-state, but you’ve got nothing to lose by filing. In my state, if you have “good cause” to quit (like any reasonable person would quit under the circumstance) then you are eligible for benefits. I would expect a situation such as this would qualify.

    Definitely would not make someone in OP’s situation whole, but it would lessen the financial blow.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        The company who rescinded the offer. They gave him an offer, he accepted, with an agreed on start date and they pulled it. They owe him something- especially if their offer doesn’t say “contingent on XYZ (usually background check.) I had an offer rescinded once when they SRVP (the hiring manager) got fired for doing something illegal, and the CEO put a freeze on that department. I was able to apply for benefits and received about 12 weeks of benefits before starting a new job– every state and country is different, but it does not hurt to try!

        1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

          Actually, no. In some states, if you have worked for a company less than ninety days, that company does not have to pay any of your unemployment benefits. The benefits would come out of the account(s) of the previous employer(s).

      2. CatCat*

        I don’t know. Maybe neither. Quitting is different than being fired since the employee is the one severing the relationship. It may depend on the circumstances (I know where I am, the UI agency is wise to the whole “quit or you’re fired” scheme and it’s considered a firing).

  10. Snark*

    I suuuure don’t think that employees should have separate rooms because they should be allowed to get drunk and belligerent, but, OP…..expecting adults to share rooms is pretty lame.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s a lot more common when you move outside of the white-collar world, though.

    2. SignalLost*

      I see this response a lot, and I agree with it, but I’m also pretty tired of seeing it used as a blanket statement. The only work trip I ever went on that required a weeklong-stay in another state, my company sent 40 people. To a convention. To, actually, the premier convention that was founded by the former company to my company. It was A Big Deal. Getting 40 people their own rooms would have been a) financially exorbitant, and B) not possible given the nature of convention space and the demand for hotel rooms for attendees.

      I’m probably reading into this story from that perspective, not the perspective of people who are used to being part of 3-4 person away teams, but somehow the letter makes me think it’s a large group going, and while I – again – think that every person should have their own room (I did not enjoy sharing a room with someone who couldn’t cope with air conditioning in Indiana in August and who liked to stay up late and sleep late while I had breakfast meetings, and who I got to confront about not sleeping naked) that doesn’t seem like a productive aspect of the story to focus on in this context. Sometimes, people have to share rooms, whether we think they should or not. And it may not be remediable.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        Agreed. I happen to work with a group of people who double up because that’s the only choice given the literal amount of available rooms. No sharing is obviously preferable but not always possible.

        1. Aleta*

          Yeah, that’s always been my (admittedly non-professional) experience of conferences, cons, and dance weekends. There’s just literally not enough rooms for everyone to have their own room. You CAN go get a room somewhere else, but there’s tradeoffs to not being in the hotel itself.

        1. SignalLost*

          The good news is, when the assignments were announced, I was warned by people who’d shared with her before. It was still a nightmare, and she shouldn’t have been on any business trips due to being an inconsiderate roommate, but at least I didn’t have to do it in the moment.

      3. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

        My husband actually dealt with a convention situation himself just like this. The only person in his group who didn’t double bunk was the only woman in the group who informed their boss (who DH ended up doubled with) that “she would be staying at her daddy’s house two blocks from the convention.”
        Turned out that the boss was a total drunk, but at least he wasn’t belligerent. Hubby lost a lot of respect for him on that trip (and boss was actually fired for failing an industry normal random drug and alcohol screen seven months later).

      4. Lucette Kensack*

        Yeah, this is an example of something we were talking about on another thread last week: folks expressing outrage over something that is, sometimes, simply a reality (I work in the nonprofit sector, so sharing rooms is just industry standard. Of course I’d prefer my own room, but every job has its compromises).

        1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

          This!!! I think it just comes down to knowing what “the norm” is for travel in the industry you are with. And also accepting the exceptions to the norm like major conventions, the whole office is going for some reason to this thing, for some reason you are in a super small town or traveling as a group to a place holding a major event the same timeframe, etc.
          The world is not perfect, so therefore travel won’t be either. The best we can do if we have to travel in a work group is be courteous to those we are traveling with.

    3. ..Kat..*

      My company packs 4 to 5 employees in a room. Two people share one double bed, two people share the other double bed, one person gets a rollaway cot. Such cots at hotels are first come, first serve. I don’t know what would happen if all the hotel’s cots are already in use.

  11. Philosopher King*

    #3 calls the problematic employees “tenured,” which suggests they cannot be fired. If so, the manager’s options seem more limited. But is there tenure outside academia?

    1. Rainy days*

      In some unionized workplaces there are those who have “tenure” and those who are still completing a probationary period. I’ve worked in one of these workplaces and while I’m theoretically pro-union politically, this same dynamic existed and it was very unpleasant.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      I took that to mean older. Simply a way to say people who’ve been in the department 10-20 years v. 1-5 years.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      My company has de facto tenure if you have a certain designated role. The application process for this role is pretty similar to the academic tenure application from what I understand. It’s not impossible to get fired but much more challenging.

  12. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

    I’ve been the person before forced to share a room with the obnoxious drunk. I totally don’t care if you drink – but don’t get drunk and then come back and expect your coworker to take care of your hungover self.
    In my case management spoke to the other person, and eventually had to pull them completely from traveling (they got lots of warnings about appropriate behavior when traveling first). And really that’s what this boils down to – you are representing a company when traveling, please use basic common sense when it comes to your actions.

    1. Artemesia*

      I had a colleague who when drunk tried to break into the rooms of the women on the trip and needed to be ‘taken care of’ and caused major uproar all night. We liked him and so covered for him with the boss, but a second time and we would have pushed for him to be fired. It is awful. If traveling is part of the job then this guy needs to be given a clear warning that doing this again will result in firing.

        3. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

          Artemesia – please tell me you just mean ‘he drunkenly mistook their room for his own’, not.. what I’m thinking you mean. Because what I’m thinking you mean is a huge disservice to the women who have to work with this dude.

        4. Pomona Sprout*

          Yeah, trying to break into women’s rooms strikes me as great justification to not just throw somebody under the bus but run it back and forth over him a few times. Would love to know the context for this.

      2. Cubicle_Queen*

        I’m with AnitaJ, I’m really bothered by this. By covering for this guy, you essentially told every woman on that trip that their personal safety was less important to you than this drunk’s great personality/good work ethic/whatever made you like him. Think of how those other colleagues of yours feel being around that guy since then and how they might feel if they were all lumped in the same business trip with him again.

      3. C'est moi*

        >We liked him and so covered for him with the boss

        Really? What about the women who he was harassing?

      5. Zephy*

        Protecting this guy makes you and your buddies part of the problem and I certainly do hope you all do better next time. What would it have taken for you all to shut that down the first time? If he had successfully broken into a female colleague’s room? If he had actually raped her? Because let’s not mince words here – if he had gotten into a room, it wasn’t because he wanted to play cards or chat about Game of Thrones. He was breaking into rooms to assault people. There is no version of this story where his behavior is an innocent, wacky misunderstanding.

        1. MommyMD*

          Right. He was trying to get into women’s room because he was sexually riled up. There’s no other reason.

      6. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        Wait – what?
        He tried to break into the women’s room.
        And y’all covered for him.
        Wow.
        Just what do you think he would have done/tried to do had he been successful?
        I can see the letter to AAM now;
        “On a work trip my colleague got drunk, broke into the women’s room and assaulted/tried to assault another colleague. It came out that he had tried before but I covered to the boss for him – now I’ve been fired. What’s my recourse?”

      8. MommyMD*

        He should have been fired. I’d call the cops if anyone was pounding on my door or trying to get in my room. Colleague or not.

      9. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

        YIKES! Worst my drunkie expected was for you to hold their hair out of the toilet while they puked up their guts and get them hangover remedies.
        I will echo the hope that what you were covering for was just a very loud I’m so drunk I can’t remember which room is mine, but I’m in the right area and not an actual assault attempt.

      10. MommyMD*

        From someone who had an acquaintance attack me that I fought off, I find the cover up so disturbing. This guy had been drinking too. Never underestimate what can happen.

      11. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        If my read of this is correct, there’s so much about this that’s disturbing:

        *The fact that you all liked him more than the women whose rooms he was trying to break into.
        *The lackadaisical attitude about it when it “caused major uproar all night”. (I’m sorry – there is no coworker that I like enough to cover for if he was making the entire night miserable…especially if he was trying to break into the rooms of my coworkers.)
        *Everybody covered for him.
        *He was trying to break into rooms.
        *One attempt to assault women is fine, but two was a deal-breaker.

      12. Janelle Desrosiers*

        I am just… I don’t even know how to respond to this entire statement. Like, I understand if you “covered” for a coworker you liked who missed a presentation because he was in the bathroom barfing non-stop but covering up attempted RAPE? What in the world?!?!?!

      14. CL*

        You let a colleague avoid consequences for attempted assault on multiple co-workers? If you’re lucky, you’ll only get fired when this comes out. Which it will, because there is no way that was the only time he’s done it. Will he seem so likable when you can’t find a job because you covered for his crime?

      15. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Hmm, I read this as needing to be “taken care of” because he was being sick and trying to get one of the women to mother him. Not that it’s any better, really, but slightly less alarming than attempted rape.

      16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m praying that ‘needed to be taken care of’ and keeping it from your boss is due to the vigilante justice the other male coworkers brought to the side of his face…

        Being surrounded by men who would go to jail sooner than just sit back and laugh off/cover up an ogre trying to break into women’s rooms, I’m really grasping at straws here to make it so you and your former colleagues aren’t actually awful humans.

  13. Anne of Green Gables*

    Man, I could have written #3 a few years ago, though my staff was smaller and I never tried the buddy system or switching seats. I’ve now been here four years and this has pretty much gone away, though it took a lot of work over probably the first two years to get rid of the “old vs the new” mentality.

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      I disagree with it. They are acting like children but OP should not treat them like children who are learning to navigate social situations. They know how to act appropriately. They are choosing not to. They need to be told this is not an option.

    2. Dino*

      What worked for you to stop that dynamic? What did that look like for you? I’d love to hear from someone who successfully dealt with this! I’m not the OP but would like to know more.

      1. Anne of Green Gables*

        A lot of it was being super diligent about what people were saying and calling it out. Especially one on one. We have an annual performance review that doesn’t mean anything in terms of salary, but did give me the chance to provide written areas for improvement. We had one question in the review specifically about personal interactions and collaboration, so I provided the feedback “Fergus occasionally reverts to “us” and “them” language when discussing staff in the department, indicating those who are long-time employees and those who are newer. Awareness of this use of language may help in stopping to perpetuate this perceived divide.” Wording is softer than I would like, but I had to get it past my admin who don’t always like to hold staff accountable.

        We are in a customer service, public-facing role where we physically staff a desk in pairs so I did occasionally intentionally put newer staff with long-term staff in an attempt to have people get to know each other, but only when it worked out for scheduling purposes–a lot of times it happened naturally. And I never fall into the “I can’t put Fergus on the desk with Wakeen because they don’t like each other” trap.

        Time also helped. Some of the longer-term staff started to see the benefits of some of the changes and stopped automatically questioning changes 100% of the time. And then a year ago, the person who perpetuated “us vs them” the most resigned, and that had a huge impact. It had already improved dramatically but that kind of killed what was left.

  14. Buttercup*

    #2 happened to a friend of mine. She’d been in a director role for about six years, applied for a new one at a different company. Went through their interview process, they loved her, hired her. She served out her two weeks at her old job, and then came in on her first day. They had her fill out some paperwork. Then they realized she hadn’t completed her bachelor’s degree. She never said she had and they’d never asked. They let her go on the spot.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I gasped. At least she knew why [still brutal and absurd, all deal breakers need to be found prior to giving a job offer, jeez.] If you require a degree, that’s something you easily do within the hiring process not the first day of work.

    3. Kristine*

      I hate arbitrary degree requirements for jobs. I understand why they’re necessary in certain fields and roles but there are so many places that require it when it’s not necessary. My job required a bachelor’s degree and 3-5 years experience; I have both but my job can easily be done by someone without a degree. The skills needed to succeed in my role are all ones that are learned in the workplace and not the classroom.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Question as someone who didn’t go to university but how do you confirm someone completed a degree?

        I’ve seen people “fake” diplomas on con-artist documentaries. Do you just ask for a diploma or do you get transcripts from the school or do their administration confirm y0u really did complete the program?

        We recently retooled a couple of job descriptions that use to require degrees, they didn’t need degrees and surely didn’t pay enough to lure in anyone with one anyways! So I haven’t actually hired anyone and needed them to confirm their degree, so that’s a new thing to me and I’d be delighted to know that procedure.

        1. irene adler*

          You can get confirmation from the school that they awarded the candidate with the claimed degree (i.e. they met all of the qualifications for said degree and therefore were awarded it).

          1. Sam.*

            What irene adler said. At all the (US) institutions where I’ve worked, when someone graduated and what degree they received was information you could call the university’s registrar and ask for, unless the student specifically asked to restrict it. Having the student get an official transcript from the registrar would be another way to do it, but most schools charge students for transcripts, so that’s annoying. I’m also under the impression that outside the US, it’s more common for them to ask to see your diploma, but that’s based purely on anecdotal information.

            1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

              Eh… depends on country. India, yes; China, yes; Europe/Canada/Latin America, generally not, unless the school can’t find record.

          2. Yet another Kat*

            The company used by my former employer would look it up in a national database. If your school was not in the database, they would reach out to you to send them proof. I sent them a photo of my diploma. This happened twice (when I first was on a 6 month contract and then again at time of official hire) and the whole thing seemed like a huge waste of money for the employer, because the contractor they were outsourcing background checks to, basically did nothing (that was not the only document I ended up having to send a pic of).

        2. Yikes*

          Generally, you call the school’s registrar to confirm enrollment and graduation. You can also request the applicant have a sealed official transcript sent directly from the school.

        3. 8DaysAWeek*

          I am in the US and to confirm a degree you have to get a transcript from your school. Some employers will require it be mailed from the university directly or in my case I had a few copies that came in sealed envelopes with the university seal on it so you could see if the envelope was opened and tampered with. I had to forward the unopened envelope to my employer(s).

          1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

            Wow, that’s insane overkill. There are so many better, cheaper, faster ways to do this in the US…

            1. Light37*

              That was how they did it when I started working 20 years ago. For my last few jobs, the transcript was emailed to HR. You submit your request online and it’s sent directly.

        4. Light37*

          IME they ask for an transcript from the school. The last time I did this, I put in the request, and they sent it directly to the HR person at the company I was applying to provided.

        5. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

          Depending on country, there are databases you can use to confirm it. These can get expensive, though. If no database/don’t wanna pay, then you ask the school directly. I wouldn’t trust a diploma – I’d want to ask the school if that diploma was authentic. If you’re going to do a lot of these, it’s probably worth your money to outsource the verifications, because it can be very time-consuming; depending on countries, the school may have very complicated requirements, and in some cases, it’s like pulling teeth to get the school to even tell you what they require.

          I say this because I work in due-diligence background screening, and a big part of my job is verifying education. I have seen a LOT of fake diplomas. Often they’re really obvious fakes, actually.

        6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Thank you, everyone! I appreciate this information because it should come in handy one day and I prefer to be somewhat prepared than ask this question to an employer later down the road ;)

          I saw some old correspondence once for a job that used to have a degree required and they were just asking for a person’s confirmation that they’d completed their degree. However it appeared they just wanted a copy of the diploma and the person was all upset because their diploma was in storage in some other state hundreds of miles away. My mind was whirling like “You can’t just get this information directly from a school?” and “getting a copy of the diploma sounds like an easy thing to fake!” I’m glad that’s not actually SOP.

        7. Lepidoptera*

          I had one job demand to see my original diploma with the raised seal. When they realized the diploma was in my birth name, they also demanded a copy of my marriage certificate to “prove” it was really me.

          1. Zephy*

            Oh man, I am a Carousel of Documentation operator and it’s not a fun ride for me, either. Part of my job requires verifying residency in XY State for a specific 12-month period. Occasionally I’ll have to daisy-chain together 3, 4, sometimes 5 documents to prove that Jane Doe’s mother is Delia Jones (nee Smith, fka Johnson).

            1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

              Oh joy, that’s how I describe my first 3 experiences with the DMV in UT. When I moved here and tried to transfer my CO drivers license six years ago I wasted almost 10 hours over the course of three trips. In the end I had to give those nut jobs he following to prove I was the person that CO had issued a license to (just 13 months earlier!):
              1. CO drivers license
              2. Copy of my valid US passport
              3. Copy of my SS card
              4. Birth certificate copy
              5. Marriage license copy
              6. Letter from Social Security Admin certifying a legal name change due to marriage
              7. Copy of my lease proving current residency in UT
              8. Piece of official mail with UT address
              9. Second piece of official mail with UT address
              10. Third piece of official mail with UT address
              In the end on the third trip I demanded to speak to a manager when they tried to confiscate and shred my marriage license (teller declared that it didn’t look official to her). I told the manager if they didn’t want to issue a new license that was fine, but as this was now my THIRD trip I was done with their nonsense and would be keeping my CO license until it expired in five years. If that needed to be the case I would appreciate all my documentation back immediately.
              Supposedly they have gotten better, but that doesn’t seem like it would take much effort. All that just to prove I was who my other license said I was and because I had changed my name at marriage.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Ah another way to punish women who either change their name for marriage or heaven forbid because they want to get rid of a toxic surname! Heaven forbid anyone change their name after they reach the tender age of like 22 when a lot of people graduate from university.

            I’m sorry that job was a bunch of nonsensical tyrants.

            1. Brett*

              Changing your name at marriage is even more of a nightmare for men, because certain states do not recognize name change at marriage for men. I’ve had to jump through insane hoops (including getting written certification from selective service) to prove that I was still the same person. It was especially bad when I was in grad school, and every year my fafsa would get flagged and held because my name changed after I graduated high school.

              1. Brett*

                I forgot the nightmare part. In states that do not recognize name changes for men at marriage, a marriage certificate is not proof of your name change. Since there was no court order either, I would have to get a mountain of evidence from selective service, social security, etc.

              2. SusanIvanova*

                Like, they don’t let you do it in that state, or if you move into that state, they refuse to use your new name? My brother lived in a state where name changes were free if they were due to marriage, definitely not cheap otherwise, and took advantage of that when he got married.

              3. Liv Jong*

                Can concur. My husband starting using his mother’s last name in his early 20s and had a driver’s license, social security card and had bought a house with the maternal surname.

                We got married and I did the paperwork to get my name changed to his. Then in 2014 Homeland Security changed some requirements and to maintain his licenses his had to prove US citizenship with his birth certificate. The birth certificate didn’t match his SSN or driver’s license so his was out of work until we did a legal name change printing it in the newspaper for 4 weeks and all.

        8. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

          Whenever I have applied for jobs that required proof of my college degree a copy of my transcripts showing “requirement completed and degree awarded” has always sufficed.

          1. ..Kat..*

            I have worked for my employer for almost 2 decades. Three times they have wanted proof of my diploma. Each time, I take my framed diploma off my wall (yes, I am very proud of earning it), go to work, and the office manager takes a picture of me proudly posing with my framed diploma and puts it in my file.

        9. VelociraptorAttack*

          Fun fact – I actually found out that my academic advisor (and I) had missed an incomplete requirement when I was between campaigns and got a call from a job saying that my university had no record of me graduating. Luckily the job didn’t require a degree, it did however require graduation of high school so I guess they called my university because it was my most recent education. I was able to verify my associates with them and get on the horn to figure out the issue with my degree.

          I would have never known there was a problem, I had walked at graduation, promptly moved out of the area, and a year had passed. I had set up for my diploma to be mailed to my mom’s house and told her it would come to her but then it was completely out of sight, out of mind.

          … I’m still a little annoyed about it nearly 10 years and an advanced degree later.

        10. Brett*

          For the US, all degrees get recorded with the National Student Clearinghouse. You can do verification on demand through there.

          1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

            Can I add a caveat to this, I worked a job collecting and evaluating student transcripts for a while. From my experience nearly all public universities and colleges were on record through National Student Clearinghouse (at least for a certification, but not transcripts for all of them). But only about 75 percent of the private colleges/universities were (at least in 2010). That may have changed in the intervening years.

        11. Teapot PR consultant*

          Australia: one phone call to the university and they’ll confirm over the phone.

          They won’t release transcripts; just whether or not the individual graduated.

      2. Justin*

        It’s a fun little way to increase class disparity when it’s not necessary for the role, too.

      3. JKP*

        Agree completely. Had a friend who took on an interim position while they tried to hire more permanently. They couldn’t hire my friend because the job required a master’s degree. But she did better at the job than previous employees for a full two years before they finally hired someone. And it took so long to hire because the role paid too little and didn’t really have the job duties to attract candidates with master’s degrees.

    4. pentamom*

      It also just happened to a friend of mine. He applied for a different position within a large hospital system, and was hired by the people who actually work in that area, who had been given approval for the hire. So he gave (several months) notice at his current position, and Hospital Bureaucracy spent the whole time not committing to a salary package for the new position, until at the last moment, just as his notice ran out, they decided they weren’t going to approve the new position at all.

  15. Not So Super-visor*

    thought on the Clique: after having dealt with a similar situation, I found that the more veteran employees felt threatened by the newer employees which is what caused them to hold them at arms’ length. The newer employees had an easier time picking up process changes as they weren’t as tied to their ways, and the more veteran reps struggled too break old habits and seemed overly sentimental about some things. When newer reps excelled and made career moves because they were excelling, the more veteran reps became even more resentful and felt that they were being passed over. I really had to re-evaluate how I coached more veteran reps in an effort to help them succeed as well.

    1. Artemesia*

      yeah the real problem here is the older employees refusing to adapt and change with new processes. I’d focus on that as it undercuts the manager’s authority.

      1. HeyAnonanonnie*

        I have to agree. Refusing new processes is a huge, huge issue. LW needs to shut that down. Alison is right that she is looking at it all wrong.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Agreed. Instead of trying to get them to play nicely, help them work “presently” as in this is how we do things now and in the future. If you need additional training, here is what we can do.

  16. HeyAnonanonnie*

    The clique OP really needs to step up and manage or she will lose her job. When I was first supervising I had older employees question me (one insisted I was putting in New requirements when I referenced something we do in compliance with a supreme court decision from the 90s!) You have to shut it down early or you lose control.

  17. Akcipitrokulo*

    OP5 – you are missing a golden opportunity if you don’t share! You are taking a situation of “Wow, look what OP has created – isn’t that awesome – they are one of our top people we need to appreciate!” and making it “Oof, what’s their issue? What a low-performer!”

    Also, I’ve been there – and it’s one of reasons I’ve got the reputation I have. Don’t throw it away!

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Exactly! My office has horrendous forms that we send to be filled out by contractors for compliance. They are embarrassingly bad and most of them can’t even be filled in with a computer. I learned how to make pdf. fillable forms and redid all of them; it was a huge amount of work. I sent them to a few coworkers who share my title – the CFO saw them and loved them and thanked me and now they are our official forms and I was thrilled about it. It got me a ton of brownie points and I was happy to make everyone’s lives just a little bit easier at work. I can’t imagine not wanting to share this kind of thing. I guess maybe if I hated my job…

      1. Ann Nonymous*

        I have tremendous sympathy for LW5. I too have been handed a steaming pile and organized the crap out of it and now I’m supposed to share what I did so that others who have created the pile have an easy way out?

  18. Lucy*

    Spreadsheet: you have my sympathies, but Alison is absolutely right. It depends on your location, but in many jurisdictions this is explicitly written into intellectual property statute. If you’re employed as a teapot designer and you design a brilliant new teapot at home in your own time, your employer may still have the rights to it (doesn’t apply to a llama dentist designing teapots).

    However … there really is an opportunity to be grasped here.

    I made a similar spreadsheet and eventually shared it. Someone asked if it could be expanded and rolled out nationally. Then they asked me to build one for a slightly different process. And another.

    That tiny project put me under all sorts of senior noses, and thereafter into much more interesting projects. The next pay review cycle where most people barely got cost of living, I got just under 20%.

    1. HeyAnonanonnie*

      From an IP perspective, the employer almost certainly owns the work. LW needs to get real as well. Does this spreadsheet have any utility outside work? My guess is probably not. Then why guard it at work?

      2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        I saw this situation on an episode of Undercover Boss. Disguised CEO went to Golden Corral and was told to wash dishes. Young man washing dishes said, here’s the hose, here’s the dishwasher, good luck.
        “Aren’t you going to show me how to do it?”
        “Nobody showed me.”
        and when they interviewed the young man alone and asked him again, he said, “it’s his problem. I didn’t have training. I’m not giving him anything I didn’t get.”
        The interesting part (since I’d been reading AAM for a few years by then) was when disguised CEO told store manager what was going on, how he was treated, trained and store manager, said, yeah, that’s X, he’s like that.
        When pushed, store manager made an asinine spectacle of reprimanding people for all the things he’d been ignoring.
        Maybe OP came from a situation like that.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I’ve only seen that show a couple of times, but don’t they usually do nice things for the people at the end? Did the dishwasher get anything even though he wasn’t helpful? What about the manager? I’m curious!

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            A lot of times they do, but sometimes they do not. If you ever get the chance to see the Hooter’s one, watch it. The CEO of Hooter’s caught one of his managers behaving in a very man-pig kind of way (one person could leave early that night, so he had a competition….the girls had to eat baked beans–I think it was–off of a plate without using their hands, and other things). And the CEO fired that guy. There was also a gym and the receptionist was a rude piece of work (while training the CEO…she would say things like “Customers are such a pain, I really hate them”) and she got canned at the end too. Oh and then there was the guy at the ouotdoor equipment place who told the CEO he knew how to grow pot and the CEO should investigate that as a revenue stream.

            I don’t know anything about the specific show mentioned upthread, but sometimes there are really great episodes where the CEO administers a smackdown!

            1. dramalama*

              The Hooter’s episode was actually my favorite, and the only one (besides the Checker’s CEO getting teased by all the employees who were trying to train him because he was terrible at everything) I still strongly remember. Not only did he come across as a genuinely nice guy who was passionate about his family business, but they showed an incredible range of owners. There was the man-pig, but there was also the single mom who’d worked her way all the way up from being a waitress. I still get misty-eyed thinking of her.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            They do nice things for the employees they spotlight who are the great-rise-above-their-circumstances employees.

            They fire the ‘ef out of the bad ones like that dishwasher. I think they were able to retrain him if memory serves me right.

            But there was another one where someone straight up said “I hate all the customers! I hate this job! It’s the worst!” with a big old smile on his face as he was working with the undercover owner. Fired.

            Some have even broken their mission at a time to get rid of someone because they’re that egregious.

            But yes, the ones who are just textbook awesome employees who care get rewarded.

    2. Parenthetically*

      “there really is an opportunity to be grasped here.”

      Yes! OP has made something she uses every day to make her job more effective. That’s a big fat Accomplishment to put on the ol’ resumé AND to bring up at pay-raise time. This thing makes your job easier, your boss sees the value of it, and you can point to it as something that makes you a valuable employee? This could not be more win-win.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      We are dealing with this in my province with teachers. We are also having some weird issues with it. Most boards will say that anything a teacher creates over the course of their employment with a board belongs to the board — eg, whatever I make to use in my class, I have to leave in my class if I change jobs. But our government is writing a new curriculum which will include a website that is, no joke, modeled on Pinterest, where a teacher who creates a successful activity can upload it, and where a teacher who is struggling to come up with a way to teach something can download an activity. We are stuck in the middle: the board says we own you and everything you make; the government says share and share alike.

    4. Jadelyn*

      This. This is exactly what happened with me. I now, despite being a totally unranked individual contributor, work directly with pretty much all of our senior leadership and am regularly tapped as a resource for high-level, often confidential projects. I’ve exchanged personal cell #s with a couple of our SVPs. And it all started with visibility from various tools and reports and documents that I created and then shared, which then got shared out to wider audiences, and those senior leaders learned my name and started coming to me directly.

      I mean, I understand the OP’s feeling of “I had to put in the work on my own, why shouldn’t everyone else?” but…you stand to gain wayyyy more by sharing it.

  19. Bad background check*

    Rescinded offer; If there was a background check I would request a copy- and legally they have to provide you one. I had a company rescind an offer based on the background check, 30 days later when I FINALLY got a copy- it was wrong, it wasn’t ME. The background check company had provided the wrong information to the employer. When I called the head of HR at the company, they didn’t care- it was already too late. I later found out that I could have sued that background check company, and in fact, they had just recently settled a huge class action lawsuit for providing bad information and/or wrong information costing people jobs.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes, the background company we use requires you to send the results if they pop with anything. It won’t even give me the results unless I enter all the prospective hire’s information to send them a copy. That’s how they make sure companies don’t just not forward a copy.

    2. RandomU...*

      This is my biggest nightmare.
      Weirdly I’ve had several jobs that had a background check required after I’ve been hired. The first was for a professional license.

      My last new job had a background check… passed that no big deal, got the offer, resigned then started the new job. Then I find out I had to go through a background check for the client of my new company. At that point I started to panic. It took 3-4 weeks for me to hear back from the client background check (although they did warn me that it would take longer than normal because of all the places I’d lived). Basically I would have been out of a job if I had not passed the client’s background check.

      Intellectually I know that I have nothing in my background that would have flagged as a problem. But it’s stories like yours that kept me up at night in both cases until I had cleared them.

    3. Yikes*

      Some employers now are eschewing traditional background checks and instead working with data brokers, a practice which essentially falls into unregulated territory. The data is often inaccurate. One of the concerns surrounding this is it can allow employers to deny employment on an illegal basis without anyone knowing. So while we’re speculating, that could also be at play.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      This is interesting because one of my retired relatives just did background check on our family members from those “Buy a Background Check!!!” websites that pop up when you Google someone’s name, out of curiosity.

      It was *riddled* with mistakes. Especially for the side of the family with a fairly common last name.

      1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

        Yup, this is what makes me nervous whenever I have done background checks (even though I know intellectually I have nothing to worry about at all) because I have a very common first and last name.

      2. Kaitlyn E Prenger*

        The background check service my old job used didn’t manage to flag a coworker who had 3 DUIs in another state, plus a warrant for skipping court on the 3rd DUI, and this job had a driving requirement! It did however flag a girl who made a FB post about how keeping a *^#$* tiger at a gas station in Baton Rouge was inhumane (we worked with research animals). Stupid.

  20. LaDeeDa*

    Spreadsheet: Part of being a great employee is improving and innovating- and that is just what you did! Your boss has recognized how helpful and useful this would to many people– you should be happy about that!!! Put a header/footer in ” is the author of for questions (or edits, corrections, or additions) please contact via ” and if you are worried they will edit or alter your content, then make editing password protected.
    Don’t hoard your work, it isn’t the way to be a good team member, employee, and it certainly won’t get you recognized for doing more than successfully meeting your job requirements.

  21. spek*

    From what I hear, the gov’t is pretty good about allowing UI benefits in this case, since they realize you are unemployed due to no fault of your own.

  22. SheLooksFamiliar*

    OP #5 – part of everyone’s job is to work efficiently. Kudos to you for creating a tool that helps you do that! However, this tool is a company resource that you created as their employee. A spreadsheet, a checklist, a new database in mauve*, it’s part of being an employee. The company owns the output you created with their spreadsheet. It’s not a complex creation that can be patented, you simply used your employer’s resources to do your job well.

    Also, as others pointed out, being a good corporate citizen is part of your job, too. You’re already getting recognition for performing with excellence, and you have nothing to lose by sharing your methods. You have a lot to be proud of, and it will reflect well on you if you help others do the same.

    *Yeah, I’m still a Dilbert fan.

  23. Yikes*

    Rescinded offer: something semi-similar happened to me, once. I left Employer A to go to Employer B. For reasons too complex to get into, but which in short involved by former coworker being a horrible person, a former colleague from Employer A created a situation where I was forced out of Employer B, and then couldn’t return to Employer A. I wonder if here, someone from Employer A torpedoed this guy with B knowing the guy would be unable to get his previous job back.

    1. Marthooh*

      Well, maybe? Or it could be a bad reference, or a sudden budget crisis, or the CEO recognizing the OP as the son of the man who ran over his puppy 25 years ago. But we don’t know and it doesn’t make a difference.

      1. Yikes*

        There’d been a lot of other speculation in the comments, thought I’d throw in my two cents, but thanks for your opinion.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s possible, look at all the letters we get with “Should I call their new employer and get them fired/rescinded” it’s a thing some vicious people do.

  24. StressedButOkay*

    OP5, I’ve lost count of the number of documents I’ve created on my own initiative in order to make my job easier or better. You can absolutely use it to your advantage (having your boss think well of you, using it to get a raise, etc) but you don’t own it, not really.

    Also, not sharing a work document that could help your coworkers comes across really petty and asking to be compensated extra for it will go over very badly and will put you in a bad light.

  25. DaffyDuck*

    Drunk – Do not make it the other employees job to manage/report on the drunk. This is quickly going to turn into a “coworker got me fired” situation. I very much doubt the drinker will stop, pull him off travel or fire him.

    2. neeko*

      Seems extreme to assume that the person won’t stop the behavior when they haven’t even been talked to about it.

      1. DaffyDuck*

        Well, the manager should definitely talk to him about it before he gets fired. However, someone who gets drunk and obnoxious every night on a work trip is either alcoholic or has extremely poor judgment. I sure wouldn’t hold out hope that he will change with one conversation.

  26. Anne of Green Gables*

    A lot of it was being super diligent about what people were saying and calling it out. Especially one on one. We have an annual performance review that doesn’t mean anything in terms of salary, but did give me the chance to provide written areas for improvement. We had one question in the review specifically about personal interactions and collaboration, so I provided the feedback “Fergus occasionally reverts to “us” and “them” language when discussing staff in the department, indicating those who are long-time employees and those who are newer. Awareness of this use of language may help in stopping to perpetuate this perceived divide.” Wording is softer than I would like, but I had to get it past my admin who don’t always like to hold staff accountable.

    We are in a customer service, public-facing role where we physically staff a desk in pairs so I did occasionally intentionally put newer staff with long-term staff in an attempt to have people get to know each other, but only when it worked out for scheduling purposes–a lot of times it happened naturally. And I never fall into the “I can’t put Fergus on the desk with Wakeen because they don’t like each other” trap.

    Time also helped. Some of the longer-term staff started to see the benefits of some of the changes and stopped automatically questioning changes 100% of the time. And then a year ago, the person who perpetuated “us vs them” the most resigned, and that had a huge impact. It had already improved dramatically but that kind of killed what was left.

    1. Anne of Green Gables*

      I had a weird glitch and this totally nested wrong! I copied it where it was supposed to go so this is a repeat comment. Sorry!

  27. just trying to help*

    #5 – share it! This makes you valuable, someone to rely on and someone others will come to for help. I hope the days are gone where experts hoarded information and talent likes its a zero sum game. The fact that OP showed initiative to create is to her credit, but the work product is still the property of work.

  28. MommyMD*

    This person is likely a chronic alcoholic. I’d give one firm warning and if he did not heed it, fire him. He reflects on your company and this is not ok.

    This is a bad situation. And this guy could cause legal problems for your business.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah…about that. If you suspect someone has a drug/alcohol or gambling problem, depending on your state laws, you have to give them more than one warning and you have to offer them options for treatment. It’s part of safe-leave laws in certain states.

      So be careful of being this callous.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I’m in California, and while I’m not a compliance specialist, it’s been my understanding that you have to accommodate employees who want to enter inpatient treatment programs and basically treat addictions as disabilities for purposes of ADA compliance, but I don’t recall anything about having to proactively offer treatment options or give multiple warnings before firing someone for bad behavior just because the behavior is related to a drug problem. In fact, I seem to remember that a fairly significant distinction is made between protecting someone *seeking treatment for* drug abuse (who would be protected), and someone who is *currently using drugs* (who would not be protected). To me, the OP’s employee falls into the latter category due to it being an ongoing behavior and the fact that it’s actively causing issues for the coworkers.

      2. Observer*

        What Jadelyn said. The Federal laws explicitly exempt someone who is currently addicted (who is not in treatment, I think). And also regardless they never require allowing safety issues (which may be at play here), failure to do the basic job (which may be at play here) or actual indulging in the addictive substance.

        1. Observer*

          Some more information about ADA:

          From the government FAQ (https://www.ada.gov/copsq7a.htm)
          #12 12. Q: Are alcoholics covered by the ADA?

          A. Yes. While a current illegal user of drugs is not protected by the ADA if an employer acts on the basis of such use, a person who currently uses alcohol is not automatically denied protection. An alcoholic is a person with a disability and is protected by the ADA if he or she is qualified to perform the essential functions of the job. An employer may be required to provide an accommodation to an alcoholic. However, an employer can discipline, discharge or deny employment to an alcoholic whose use of alcohol adversely affects job performance or conduct. An employer also may prohibit the use of alcohol in the workplace and can require that employees not be under the influence of alcohol. (bolding added)

  29. dramalama*

    I had a very different read on #1: this doesn’t sound like travelling for work (as a week or a few days in another city for a sales presentation or meeting etc.) this sounds like a job that’s on the road, as in living out of a motel for weeks on end. The fact that OP says “while on the road with the crew” makes me think that, because that’s how those type of jobs (where you’re working on a long-term project in a remote area, moving to a new hotel/motel every few weeks) usually describe it.

    I don’t know if I’m misreading that, but it makes a big difference, because on those jobs your room is your apartment, and only the worst companies will make you share. Even if you’re paying a competitive rate, by making people share a room you’re effectively taking away a huge chunk of their compensation, and you’re likely to only get the people who can’t get hired anywhere else. Secondly, it tends to be more physical work, and if the guy is a drunk mess that’s a literal accident waiting to happen. Finally, you’re setting a really terrible example for your crew by letting him get away with it.

    1. DaffyDuck*

      I read the letter that way also. “Crew” has me thinking this is some sort of construction job or travelling entertainment (plays, concerts, etc.).

  30. Peaches*

    #5 – As Alison mentions, this is the kind of thing that you can use to your advantage when it’s time for a review. When I started in my position four years ago, there were no written instructions in place. As I learned things over time, I created a several detailed training documents which have since been shared with many people in my company. It has really bode well for me. I got a pretty substantial raise at my first annual review after creating/sharing those documents. It was one of my main talking points in my annual review.

    Don’t withhold these documents. It’ll just look odd.

  31. I can relate.*

    OP #1 – I wonder if this guy’s drinking has any impact on him to be where he needs to be the next morning. If so, that’s an even bigger case for “handling this situation.”

    In the industry that I work in, there are countless stories of people drinking/partying too much the night before and being unable to function the next morning but there seem to be no repercussions other than losing their job, and since they work on short-term contracts, they just move onto the next role/contract.

    OP #2 – Rescinded offer – that was a very crappy situation and a poor way for that employer to handle it. I hope that the person finds another job soon, one that’s even better than the company that rescinded the offer.

    Another personal story – At Old Job, we had a guy go through a background check knowing he wouldn’t pass and he didn’t disclose that something would come up. Of course, having something pop on a background check is not an immediate “we can’t hire them” but HR said it was serious enough that we couldn’t hire him. We were never told what the issue was, just that he was a “no go.”

    We needed someone to start ASAP and we didn’t really have another candidate that we wanted for Specialized Role Requiring Specific License and experience using said license so we went with Candidate #2 who the team didn’t really get along with but made due. That was a fun few months.

  32. Cows go moo*

    #2: I don’t know if it would be worth your emotional energy and legal costs to try and fight for some compensation. But at the very least, you should leave a review of this on their Glassdoor. I would also contact the CEO of the company and ask him if he is aware of this happening. Even if there was a legitimate reason for rescinding the job offer, the way they handled it was awful. If I were the top boss I would very much care about how this affects my organisation’s image.

  33. Database Developer Dude*

    Bottom line, this guy could be stone cold sober and still be belligerent and loud. Address that behavior, and don’t even mention the drinking.

  34. Bopper*

    Re: spreadsheet

    Password protect it (so people don’t make unwanted changes) and put it on the Share site.
    Creating things is considered valuable …your boss thinks it is great and wants to share it!

  35. Helena*

    #4 (referrals): Lots of employers offer current employees referral bonuses, so the current employee will get a nice check if you’re hired. In those situations, HR will usually leave the current employee refer-er out of the hiring process entirely, because of the potential conflict of interest. I’m always amazed how many prospective employee refer-ees refuse to believe me when I tell them that I have no insight into where they are in the hiring process.

  36. Not My Real Name*

    LW #5, I.was in a similar situation back when I first started my career. I wanted to keep a running tab of the business I had brought in. Former bosses found out and pretty much fired me for it as it was their customer base and proprietary info, not mine. Post it on the shared drive. Yes you’ve put a lot of work into it but you can bring it up in your review amd discuss how you created it and how it’s helped your job.

Comments are closed.